Post/Author/DateTime	Post
periscope 11-16-06, 03:45 PM	Hi, the other day I saw this: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=738077 and I thought the TOB would probably be useful in making a couple of the other classes more viable. Specifically Im looking at the swashbuckler, samurai, hexblade, and fighter. What, in your opinions, do you think should be sacrificed and what should be gained? Ideas so far Samurai: Devoted spirit or stone dragon, setting sun, and diamond mind or iron heart. Warblade or crusader progression Swashbuckler: Setting sun (the better for proving might does not make right), diamond mind, Iron heart Warblade progression Hexblade: Shadow hand, iron heart, diamond mind Warblade progression Fighter: Considering giving them the ability to choose 3 schools while they automatically gain Iron heart. If not then Iron heart, Tiger claw, diamond mind. Special, may count some of the feats from TOB as fighter feats. Thinking about a swordsage like progression.
DreamerInsane 11-16-06, 04:07 PM	What about Soulknife? And I'd definitely keep Fighter to only a school or two, and usually in the most mundane ones. What about Tiger Claw for Hexblade?
periscope 11-16-06, 04:15 PM	Id figured that the fighters, since they are the ones in most need of a boost and the represent the wandering warrior, would get about four schools one of which would have to be Iron heart because its the building block to every other style, it was the first that Reshar mastered and its weapon skill, pure and simple. Thats also why I was considering a swordsage like progression. Maybe, not allow the desert one (so the swordsage would still have something to call his own). I didnt figure tiger claw for the hexblade cause it just doesnt seem like it would fit. A hexblade doesnt fly into an animalistic rage, he's calm, cool, collected and doesnt fight fair (shadow hand and curse ability). what schools would you recommend for the soulknife and what would you give up? Remember to gain something of equal value must be lost (and yes I did rip off fullmetal alchemist).
DreamerInsane 11-16-06, 04:42 PM	Well, Soulknives are weakish. But I guess some way to deal with the possible abuse of, say, Assassin's Stance and Psychic Strike, needs to be dealt with. Gah, what was I thinking? Three schools for FTR, I'd try to keep them mundane. Iron Heart, perhaps White Raven. Hmm... Stone Dragon?
Manyfist 11-16-06, 04:50 PM	Soulknife- Needs to be a PrC not a full blown class. Hexblade- Warblade progression after the 5th level level. The Disciplines available are: Desert Wind/Stone Dragon or Iron Heat/Shadow Hand. Choose either or. Samurai- Crusader's progression after 10th level. Disiciplines available: Devoted spirit/stone dragon, or setting sun/diamond mind or Stone Dragon/Diamond Mind. Fighter- Just replace "Fighter" with "Warblade" I.E get rid of old the old Fighter, and replace it with the Warblade. Paladin- Replace "Paladin" with "Crusader". Ranger- 5th Level, Warblade progression. Disiciplines: (Melee) Tiger Claw/Desert Wind. (Range) Shadow Hand/White Raven.
Crashy75 11-16-06, 05:59 PM	I have to hitch a ride on this one... have plenty of ideas as well. no time now though :(
periscope 11-17-06, 12:27 AM	Soulknife- Needs to be a PrC not a full blown class. Hexblade- Warblade progression after the 5th level level. The Disciplines available are: Desert Wind/Stone Dragon or Iron Heat/Shadow Hand. Choose either or. Samurai- Crusader's progression after 10th level. Disiciplines available: Devoted spirit/stone dragon, or setting sun/diamond mind or Stone Dragon/Diamond Mind. Fighter- Just replace "Fighter" with "Warblade" I.E get rid of old the old Fighter, and replace it with the Warblade. Paladin- Replace "Paladin" with "Crusader". Ranger- 5th Level, Warblade progression. Disiciplines: (Melee) Tiger Claw/Desert Wind. (Range) Shadow Hand/White Raven. What do you mean exactly when you say after 5th or after 10th level? You mean they dont get anything until those levels? I'd kinda want to start off from the beginning with them since these all tend to be ones I've heard or seen that need a power boost. Plus the hexblade is giving up his casting ability, though Im still trying to decide what to drop from the samurai. If you replace the fighter then you will have to expand the warblades feats into including the fighters list of bonus feats. The paladin I dont want to drop, though I will need to think of a way to distinguish it from the crusader (probably use a variant off the boards).
Manyfist 11-17-06, 12:36 AM	What do you mean exactly when you say after 5th or after 10th level? You mean they dont get anything until those levels? I'd kinda want to start off from the beginning with them since these all tend to be ones I've heard or seen that need a power boost. Plus the hexblade is giving up his casting ability, though Im still trying to decide what to drop from the samurai. If you replace the fighter then you will have to expand the warblades feats into including the fighters list of bonus feats. The paladin I dont want to drop, though I will need to think of a way to distinguish it from the crusader (probably use a variant off the boards). If you let them start out with them there would be no reason to play the TOB classes. They would get the ablities just like that of spell casting they just start at lvl 5 (Ranger). Lvl 10 (Samurai). Well when you replace Fighter with Warblade you would give them all the fighter feats (The List of feats). The Paladin is the Crusader. Paladin=Crusader, they both worship dieties and smite those who don't agree with them. I would give Hexblade the Bards casting times/day.
periscope 11-17-06, 01:17 AM	There would still be reason to play them. The swordsage still would get the most schools, maneuvers, and stances along with all the the other abilities which play into the master swordsman/man on the mountain archetype. The warblade you would still get bonus feats, maneuvers and the rest, weapon aptitude, battle ardor, cunning, skill, mastery, and stance mastery, and with the crusader you still get the furious counterstrike, steely resolve indomitable soul, zealous surge, smiting, die hard as a bonus feat (which is always good, not bleeding to death is good, definitely good definitely), mettle plus the religious fervor of a cleric with the battle testament of a fighter (or barbarian depending on who you worship).
Archangel62 11-17-06, 02:46 AM	I figured the Hexblade more for the shadow school myself. But as for what's available and all, there are all kinds of tricks you can use. A friend of mine is rebuilding the Samurai class and giving each clan access to one of the nine schools with the exception of iron heart, a style that was developed by those of the main continent observing their styles and creating one of their own based on it.
periscope 11-17-06, 12:40 PM	Well the hexblade would get access to the shadow school, I dont think anyone would argue that. Or do you mean he should only get access to the shadow school and no others?
Archangel62 11-17-06, 01:02 PM	Well the hexblade would get access to the shadow school, I dont think anyone would argue that. Or do you mean he should only get access to the shadow school and no others? Well, I meant that if each martial class only got one school for perfect access I figured shadow made the most sense for the hexblade.
periscope 11-17-06, 01:16 PM	Oh, I want to make sure every one of them has at least 2 or preferably 3 (other wise every build will be the same). I just figured Iron Heart and Diamond mind since they represent skill with a blade (I mean think about it, are there any supernatural abilities in those 2 schools?)
periscope 11-17-06, 10:43 PM	just your friendly neighborhood bump!
megageek 11-17-06, 11:18 PM	Anyone thought giving the monk initiating? They're extremely underpowered, and it just seems so right flavor wise! I'm thinking a swordsage progrresion and all disciplines.
periscope 11-17-06, 11:27 PM	Anyone thought giving the monk initiating? They're extremely underpowered, and it just seems so right flavor wise! I'm thinking a swordsage progrresion and all disciplines. Wouldnt that be a swordsage with the improved unarmed strike feat and the one from TOB that gives you better unarmed damage?
Manyfist 11-17-06, 11:50 PM	Anyone thought giving the monk initiating? They're extremely underpowered, and it just seems so right flavor wise! I'm thinking a swordsage progrresion and all disciplines. You crazy? Monks are balanced if not a bit overpowered. Monk = Swordsage Paladin = Crusader Fighter = Warblade Quick and easy. :P
megageek 11-17-06, 11:55 PM	I will refer manyfist to the thread about monks being overpowered, and I have only seen the book through my friend, so I haven't seen the feat.
Nexis 11-18-06, 01:17 AM	You crazy? Monks are balanced if not a bit overpowered. Oh wow... Im just stunned....I didnt know people like you were still around...
Glensather 11-18-06, 01:46 AM	First off... Stone Dragon - Since it's universal in ToB, why not go ahead and let it be universal for everyone? (I.E. Since everyone keeps saying Hexblade gets Shadow Hand only, make it Shadow Hand and Stone Dragon). Here's my idea for Fighter: Fighter - Martial Adept Style Maneuvers Maneuvers Stances Known Readied 01. 02 02 1 02. 02 02 1 03. 03 02 1 04. 04 03 1 05. 05 03 2 06. 05 03 2 07. 06 04 2 08. 07 04 2 09. 08 04 3 10. 08 05 3 11. 09 05 3 12. 10 05 3 13. 11 06 3 14. 11 06 3 15. 12 06 4 16. 13 07 4 17. 14 07 4 18. 14 07 4 19. 15 08 4 20. 16 08 4 Maneuvers: You begin with two martial maneuvers. The disciplines available are Iron Heart, Diamond Mind, and Stone Dragon. You must ready a maeuver as normal. Also, unlike Warblade, Swordsage, and Crusader, once you learn a maneuver, you may not unlearn one in exchange for a new one every even numbered level after 4th. Reasoning: In this way, the Fighter falls squarely between the Swordsage and Warblade. Keeping the amount of maneuvers at a max of 16 (below SS 25 but above WB 12), and only three disciplines being open ensures versatility, but not enough to overshadow the other Martial Adept classes (except for Crusader, but things like Steely Resolve and Furious Counterattack, plus Devoted Spirit, can make up for that). Also, I make note that a Fighter can't unlearn old manuvers. This is another incentive to stick with the original three over the Fighter Adept. A middle amount of maneuvers that you can ready is also useful - more than Warblade by 1, but less than Swordsage by 4. Not squarely in the middle, but enough to get through the encounter easily. Stances readied matches the Warblade, so no comment there. I messed with the amount of bonus feats that Fighters get, and wondered if it should change. I vote no, because not only are 11 bonus feats a staple of the Fighter, but he can use some of those to match/surpass Warblade in some areas, but not others (recovering all your maneuvers as a swift action? Why thank you).
Manyfist 11-18-06, 03:24 AM	Oh wow... Im just stunned....I didnt know people like you were still around... :confused: Am I not suppost to exist any more? Monks are balanced, with the fact they require MAD like crazy, Str/Dex/Wis/Con or Dex/Wis/Con while Int could be thrown in to the mix for the skills. Not to mention LG/LE/LN the Multiclass restrictions. The little bit overpowered is the All good saves, Insane Speeds, and a few special immunities. Its not crazy damage doer like that of the Wizard nor the OOC usefulness of the Rogue and Bard, its a good class. They are not underpowered.
DreamerInsane 11-18-06, 04:31 AM	Check out Lord_Gareth's recent Monk thread. That should explain Nexis' comment.
Crashy75 11-18-06, 10:26 AM	a link: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=738053
Nephlite 11-18-06, 10:33 AM	:confused: Am I not suppost to exist any more? Monks are balanced, with the fact they require MAD like crazy, Str/Dex/Wis/Con or Dex/Wis/Con while Int could be thrown in to the mix for the skills. Not to mention LG/LE/LN the Multiclass restrictions. The little bit overpowered is the All good saves, Insane Speeds, and a few special immunities. Its not crazy damage doer like that of the Wizard nor the OOC usefulness of the Rogue and Bard, its a good class. They are not underpowered. You do realize unlike Monk: Swordsage wears ligfht armor + wisdom bonus to AC. Monk are underpowerd becauase of MAD. Speed..nifty, but that that uber. Immunities nothing Druid or Pal doesn't get (actually, both get one or two of the immunities). All good saves is only thing monk has going for him.
megageek 11-18-06, 11:24 AM	And whats the feat that gives unarmed damage? Monk do nothing but hit and whiff with their 3/4 bab(and flurry). Swordsages have 3/4 too, but they have maneuvers, and well... manuevers!
periscope 11-18-06, 10:14 PM	The feat is in tome of battle it gives you increased unarmed damage.
Manyfist 11-18-06, 11:17 PM	You do realize unlike Monk: Swordsage wears ligfht armor + wisdom bonus to AC. Monk are underpowerd becauase of MAD. Speed..nifty, but that that uber. Immunities nothing Druid or Pal doesn't get (actually, both get one or two of the immunities). All good saves is only thing monk has going for him. Their is always the variant that TOB gives, which takes off the Light Armor. Do not underestimate Spring Attack for a Monk, moving at speeds that makes everyone else look like they are standing still. VoP for a Monk is the one of the best things to take as a monk, +14 AC Bonus, + Dex, +Wis. Not to mention it doesn't have an Alignment restriction. Nor does the Swordsage become Outsider at lvl 20 and DR of 10/Magic. In the end they're about equal, Monks can run at uber speeds (360' running with out the Run feat). With Spring attack and walking, you'll attack and move at least 90' at lvl 20.
megageek 11-19-06, 12:19 AM	Ehemm but vow of peace is basically for npc's!
dagger 11-19-06, 12:33 AM	Its funny how the base Warblade (without Stances/maneuvers) is a better Swashbuckler than the Swashbuckler. :) I could see beefing up the Swash with some of the base abilites of the Warblades (the ones based off Int).
Manyfist 11-19-06, 01:10 AM	Ehemm but vow of peace is basically for npc's! Vow of Poverty not peace.
periscope 11-19-06, 09:13 AM	Its funny how the base Warblade (without Stances/maneuvers) is a better Swashbuckler than the Swashbuckler. :) I could see beefing up the Swash with some of the base abilites of the Warblades (the ones based off Int). Thats one of the reasons why I\m considering giving them maneuvers from the schools I think best fit them. Diamond mind becuase I mean look at it, the nightmare blade techniques scream duelist, Iron Mind is skill with a blade, and setting sun would fit the flavor of the harder they fall.
megageek 11-19-06, 12:39 PM	Vow of poverty makes the monk MAD even worse, because no periapts of wisdom, belt of giants strength, amulet of health, or gloves of dexterity!
Crashy75 11-19-06, 06:08 PM	Their is always the variant that TOB gives, which takes off the Light Armor. Do not underestimate Spring Attack for a Monk, moving at speeds that makes everyone else look like they are standing still. VoP for a Monk is the one of the best things to take as a monk, +14 AC Bonus, + Dex, +Wis. Not to mention it doesn't have an Alignment restriction. Nor does the Swordsage become Outsider at lvl 20 and DR of 10/Magic. In the end they're about equal, Monks can run at uber speeds (360' running with out the Run feat). With Spring attack and walking, you'll attack and move at least 90' at lvl 20. manyfist, have you read the post on the monk? they address vop (both really)
Manyfist 11-19-06, 07:38 PM	manyfist, have you read the post on the monk? they address vop (both really) I missed it because it had said "A link" reading now.
Crashy75 11-19-06, 10:04 PM	k... Fighter: Best idea is probably to use the warblade and call it a fighter. Otherwise give him weapon aptitude (obviously not for the qualification for fighter feats part) and a slow progression (perhaps only gaining maneuvers at the dead levels) I'd say the Iron heart discipline is made for the fighter. I think white raven would work too. Add stone dragon if you want to give him 3. Monk: Again, use the swordsage and call it a monk. Give him improved unarmed combat instead of discipline focus (or make it only apply to unarmed combat) Give the superior unarmed strike at 4th level and i think you're done. If you wanted, you could alter Discipline Focus only apply to unarmed attacks. That could be trouble though. Might force them to specialize in stone dragon for the DR penetration. Hexblade: Don't have this guy in front of me. I assume he'd get maneuvers instead of spells? Shadow Hand should be a given for this guy. I think Desert wind is really not his style. (he has no fire spells i think) I could see diamond mind though. Also, Iron heart. Ranger: I'm a little sweet on RD's version. At least the flavor regarding the third style. The archery stuff makes me a little wary... but who knows. I haven’t play tested it. yet. Samurai/knight/paladin: I see crusader here. Alter the flavor so it doesn't necessarily have to be a religious type. Swashy: The warblade works pretty well for these guys too.
Manyfist 11-19-06, 11:07 PM	k... Fighter: Best idea is probably to use the warblade and call it a fighter. Otherwise give him weapon aptitude (obviously not for the qualification for fighter feats part) and a slow progression (perhaps only gaining maneuvers at the dead levels) I'd say the Iron heart discipline is made for the fighter. I think white raven would work too. Add stone dragon if you want to give him 3. Monk: Again, use the swordsage and call it a monk. Give him improved unarmed combat instead of discipline focus (or make it only apply to unarmed combat) Give the superior unarmed strike at 4th level and i think you're done. If you wanted, you could alter Discipline Focus only apply to unarmed attacks. That could be trouble though. Might force them to specialize in stone dragon for the DR penetration. Hexblade: Don't have this guy in front of me. I assume he'd get maneuvers instead of spells? Shadow Hand should be a given for this guy. I think Desert wind is really not his style. (he has no fire spells i think) I could see diamond mind though. Also, Iron heart. Ranger: I'm a little sweet on RD's version. At least the flavor regarding the third style. The archery stuff makes me a little wary... but who knows. I haven’t play tested it. yet. Samurai/knight/paladin: I see crusader here. Alter the flavor so it doesn't necessarily have to be a religious type. Swashy: The warblade works pretty well for these guys too. I truely belive that TOB is ment to replace Fighter, Monk, Samurai, and Paladin. They are practically what these classes were ment to be, hopefully in 4e The Warblade/Crusader/Swordsage be core. Wiz/Dru/Clr will be nerfed.
megageek 11-19-06, 11:32 PM	The Tob classes will probaly be made core, along with their names being changed.
periscope 11-20-06, 12:53 AM	The Tob classes will probaly be made core, along with their names being changed. Why? Also Fighter: I just want to add the progression in with his normal abilities, no losses (I would pay just to hear someone honestly say "OMG the Fighter overpowered!" or something the equivelant thereof (He just powned my wizard/initiate of the 7 fold veil/epic archmage!). How about they automatically gain the iron heart, and they can choose their other 2 or 3 schools? Hexblade: Yes he would lose his spells but what he would gain from the shadowhand, diamond mind, and iron heart schools would be worth it and boost his power significantly (and a boost to his curse abilities we have in our home games) Swashbuckler: Whast should the swashbuckler have to give up? Im thinking (if this actually gets off the ground) of taking the insightful strike and grace abilities for starters (granted they arent that powerful to begin with) maybe for access to diamond mind and setting sun schools only. Samurai: Im thinking about giving up on this one since the samurai they have now may not be salvageable.
JoAT 11-20-06, 01:45 AM	The way I see it, martial classes should now consist of: Warblade (Fighter, Samurai, Swashbuckler) Swordsage (Monk, Swashbuckler) Crusader (Paladin) Ranger Barbarian Hexblade Duskblade Psychic Warrior Soulborn Soulknife Classes listed in brackets are classes whose roles are essentially subsumed by another class. I don't think that all of these classes need to been altered to accommodate the Tome of Battle. The Barbarian, in particular, would be great as a class without direct access. The Hexblade, I think, would be much better as an Invocation user, possibly with the Hexblade's curse being their own version of Eldritch blast (with one of the standard stipulation that it cannot be used against a given opponent more than once in a 24 hour period). Ranger... I'm kinda iffy about this. It's balanced and everything, but I'm not certain if the Ranger's flavor lends itself well to learning codified manuvers. The Duskblade should remain the same, or perhaps should add the ability to use Spell Maneuvers (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=739916), instead of channeling spells. And I'd really like to subsume Soulborn into the Crusader as well... Maybe some alternate abilities, or incarnum-oriented maneuvers. Or even manuver oriented soulmelds...? Soulknife..... I.... well.... Screw it. Given Swordsages a special 'mind's blade' stance (or even feat), then base maneuvers off the other stuff the soulknife gets. Psychic Warrior should be left alone, unless you wish to take as much away as you give to them. Perhaps a minor maneuver progression, which allows them to act as Soulknives instead, too, or some 'Mind Maneuvers' (though it would be very difficult to pull off, given how different the two are in scaling...) Also, how prevalent should Maneuvers and disciplines be? Should they be made the new feats, or do they represent a level of training no common solider could ever pick up?
Manyfist 11-20-06, 03:11 AM	Why? Also Fighter: I just want to add the progression in with his normal abilities, no losses (I would pay just to hear someone honestly say "OMG the Fighter overpowered!" or something the equivelant thereof (He just powned my wizard/initiate of the 7 fold veil/epic archmage!). How about they automatically gain the iron heart, and they can choose their other 2 or 3 schools? Its called the Warblade, if you want just say "Its a Fighter" (I like Warblade alot better as a name). Fighters are generic, they're not suppost to be uber, just like the Monk, Wiz, and Sorcerer you want to Multi class out of it as fast you can. Hexblade: Yes he would lose his spells but what he would gain from the shadowhand, diamond mind, and iron heart schools would be worth it and boost his power significantly (and a boost to his curse abilities we have in our home games) I could see this happening. After all Hexblade's spells kinda suck. Also they have to wear light armor and doesn't have that many defensive spells like that of a Ranger/Paladin. Swashbuckler: Whast should the swashbuckler have to give up? Im thinking (if this actually gets off the ground) of taking the insightful strike and grace abilities for starters (granted they arent that powerful to begin with) maybe for access to diamond mind and setting sun schools only. Samurai: Im thinking about giving up on this one since the samurai they have now may not be salvageable. Warblade (Samurai, Swashbuckler, Fighter) all mix into one, with extras. Seriously, a Samurai was nothing but a Warblade who was LG/LN/LE, Diamond Mind, Iron Heart. Swashbuckler light armored Warblade that uses Dex as main stats, with Iron Heart, and Tigerclaws (Tumbleing and Jumping). Fighter is nothing more than a Whiteraven, Iron Heart Warblade, or if 2h Stone Dragon, Iron Heart. No need for classes that basically are the same thing, with diffrent styles. Scout imo should be a Ranger (Bow spec), Hexblade is already out done by Battle Sorcerer (UA) as in more spells. Scout could also be a Rogue, who instead of sneaking up on opponets, when ever she moves gets extra damage.
Crashy75 11-20-06, 10:42 AM	...I don't think that all of these classes need to been altered to accommodate the Tome of Battle. The Barbarian, in particular, would be great as a class without direct access. Forgot about the barbarians. I think most martial classes should have some martial progression (except for psychic warriors and the like). Maneuvers are diverse. Maneuvers are interesting. Barbarians are one trick ponies. Some tiger claw maneuvers would fit. The flavor of the tigerclaw discipline really does fit the barbarian. Maybe Stone dragon. They'd have to lose something though. And the progression should be slow and not start at 1st lev for sure. Also, how prevalent should Maneuvers and disciplines be? Should they be made the new feats, or do they represent a level of training no common solider could ever pick up? I'd go with option #2. Common warriors should be not gain maneuvers.
JoAT 11-20-06, 01:01 PM	Forgot about the barbarians. I think most martial classes should have some martial progression (except for psychic warriors and the like). Maneuvers are diverse. Maneuvers are interesting. Barbarians are one trick ponies. Some tiger claw maneuvers would fit. The flavor of the tigerclaw discipline really does fit the barbarian. Maybe Stone dragon. They'd have to lose something though. And the progression should be slow and not start at 1st lev for sure. I'd go with option #2. Common warriors should be not gain maneuvers. That's going to problem with replacing all base martial classes with ToB or initiator variants, then. If maneuvers are not common place, and someone is playing a martial character who has never learned any maneuvers, or, rather, never had the opportunity to learn them (such as a lowly guard, a veteran of the last couple years of the Last War whose never had the time to learn all these fancy tricks, or a barbaric lout fresh from the hills). Do they then play rogues or scouts? If maneuvers are going to be treated as something unique, and not a common martial capability like any given combat feat, then there has to be PC-viable fighter-types who don't use them. Also, given the flavor of the ninja, should they still exist, should they be granted a maneuver progress, or are they simply Shadow Hand oriented Swordsage/Rogues?
Crashy75 11-20-06, 05:57 PM	... If maneuvers are not common place, and someone is playing a martial character who has never learned any maneuvers, or, rather, never had the opportunity to learn them (such as a lowly guard, a veteran of the last couple years of the Last War whose never had the time to learn all these fancy tricks, or a barbaric lout fresh from the hills). Do they then play rogues or scouts? I don't think so. A lowly guard would be a warrior (the NPC class) The captain of the guard would probably be a fighter. (or warblade) Or, if he wasn't anything special, then he'd be a higher level warrior. If maneuvers are going to be treated as something unique, and not a common martial capability like any given combat feat, then there has to be PC-viable fighter-types who don't use them. They wouldn't be unique if the average soldier was a figher (or warblade) I think that's why most common fighter types should be warriors, while the pc's and main villians should be pc classes (at least IMO). I suppose it depends how common pc classes are IYC. Also, given the flavor of the ninja, should they still exist, should they be granted a maneuver progress, or are they simply Shadow Hand oriented Swordsage/Rogues? If i used them, than they would have a maneuver progression.
JoAT 11-20-06, 09:50 PM	I was thinking more along the line of the player whose character was a town guard, and is now an adventurer. If maneuvers aren't common, then the concept needs to be accounted for. Off the top of my head, the fighter could be left alone, and granted an additional benefit when taking the Martial study feat, to account for such people.
megageek 11-20-06, 10:40 PM	Just give fighter bonus feats at 8 levels and swordsage progression at 12 levels.
periscope 11-20-06, 11:51 PM	I was thinking more along the line of the player whose character was a town guard, and is now an adventurer. If maneuvers aren't common, then the concept needs to be accounted for. Off the top of my head, the fighter could be left alone, and granted an additional benefit when taking the Martial study feat, to account for such people. Well I would have to say that maneuvers dont necessarily need to be learned in a school. They could represent tricks the person that helped them out in battle (exactly how to get behind someone and shank them, how to hit their weapon and rattle their arm, etc.). aka the unpolished warrior. Also, I might give in on the fighter and samurai being subsumed by the warblade, but the swashbuckler and the hexblade Im going to fight for. Everybody seems to agree that the hexblade would be good with the maneuvers in place of their spells. Im just trying to figure what else to take from the swashbuckler (maybe lower the hit die by one?). Also, Im thinking about taking away their dodge bonus and replacing with an Int to ac as a competence bonus useable while in light or no armor (and no shields, not even bucklers). Maybe even nix the armor prof and just let them keep the dodge and int bonuses since its slightly weaker than the monk (the wis+4 miscellaneous bonus) since the swash has declare who their dodging so those might balance out with the schools.
JoAT 11-21-06, 12:28 AM	Well I would have to say that maneuvers dont necessarily need to be learned in a school. They could represent tricks the person that helped them out in battle (exactly how to get behind someone and shank them, how to hit their weapon and rattle their arm, etc.). aka the unpolished warrior. That would make them much like feats, then. In this case, I would expect allot of warriors to take Martial Study once or twice, and maybe Martial Stance. It would require a bit of a revamp to a given world, since the sublime way would be a great part of everyday life. Of course, if we likened the sublime way to martial arts in the modern world, how many people would have a feat or two? I'd say allot. Also, I might give in on the fighter and samurai being subsumed by the warblade, but the swashbuckler and the hexblade Im going to fight for. Everybody seems to agree that the hexblade would be good with the maneuvers in place of their spells. Im just trying to figure what else to take from the swashbuckler (maybe lower the hit die by one?). Also, Im thinking about taking away their dodge bonus and replacing with an Int to ac as a competence bonus useable while in light or no armor (and no shields, not even bucklers). Maybe even nix the armor prof and just let them keep the dodge and int bonuses since its slightly weaker than the monk (the wis+4 miscellaneous bonus) since the swash has declare who their dodging so those might balance out with the schools. The hexblade has no problems standing on his own, though I still say invocations are much better suited to him. He can take Martial Study like all the other base warriors. The Swashbuckler, on the other hand, is going to find that the things he does best are mostly already taken. He has very few unique abilities, and his flavor is such that any character who runs around without armor, and can do the same basic things (ie, fight well with a rapier and tumble) does what he does.
periscope 11-21-06, 12:56 AM	Well I figured that the access to the schools might set the swash apart from the rest since they would be the only class that would get access to the iron heart, diamond mind, and setting sun schools, and has a full bab and all the other swash abilities. I know most of it has been done but that could be said for a lot of classes out there the people like. Duskblade could be seen as mainly a rip off of the spellsword (at least in concept) who gets few abilities the set him apart (arcane channeling is all I can think of right now). Favored soul could be seen as a rip off of the sorceror and the cleric, beguiler could be seen as a rip off of the prc from the dmg (arcane trickster I think) etc., etc., etc.
Crashy75 11-21-06, 12:29 PM	I was thinking more along the line of the player whose character was a town guard, and is now an adventurer. If maneuvers aren't common, then the concept needs to be accounted for. I think pc's, by definition, are special. Pehaps he had an uncle that taught him some tricks they didn't teach in guard school. Perhaps he is natually adept and excells at fighting. Really pc classes are ment to be above and beyond. Even if you didn't use maneuvers, you'd make this character a fighter while most of his peers would be warriors. That's the difference. Off the top of my head, the fighter could be left alone, and granted an additional benefit when taking the Martial study feat, to account for such people. You could do that. You'll get one of two results: #1: The fighter will still suck. If you feel this is ok, or you believe the fighter doesn't suck as is, then cool. #2: This additional benefit for fighers will be so good that any fighter would be crazy not to take it. I'm not fond of forcing specific builds on pc's.
periscope 11-21-06, 05:51 PM	bump
JoAT 11-21-06, 06:19 PM	Well I figured that the access to the schools might set the swash apart from the rest since they would be the only class that would get access to the iron heart, diamond mind, and setting sun schools, and has a full bab and all the other swash abilities. I know most of it has been done but that could be said for a lot of classes out there the people like. Duskblade could be seen as mainly a rip off of the spellsword (at least in concept) who gets few abilities the set him apart (arcane channeling is all I can think of right now). Favored soul could be seen as a rip off of the sorceror and the cleric, beguiler could be seen as a rip off of the prc from the dmg (arcane trickster I think) etc., etc., etc. Very true, and something I don't really like about D&D, with the Swashbuckler and the Samurai being the formost examples of this, since most of their abilities can be duplicated with a feat or two (the Samurai staring thing is now part of the base ToB rules, anyways..). If I had my way, there would be a small selection of very customizable and multiclassable core classes that could replicate most of the PrC and base classes.... *daydreams for a momment* But I don't have the time to make that stuff... Or, at least I won't for some time, and I don't wish to jump ship to another system, and so we shall work with what we have.
JoAT 11-21-06, 06:40 PM	I think pc's, by definition, are special. Pehaps he had an uncle that taught him some tricks they didn't teach in guard school. Perhaps he is natually adept and excells at fighting. Really pc classes are ment to be above and beyond. Even if you didn't use maneuvers, you'd make this character a fighter while most of his peers would be warriors. That's the difference. That is true, but only if you can consider manuvers to be the equivalent of tricks that anyone can learn, and don't take obsecne amounts of training. If manuvers are as common as martial arts training is, then it's no problem. But if you define manuvers as being a very advanced state of training, then not everyone who can fight (including some special characters) can do it. I'm leaning more towards saying that maneuvers are fairly commonplace myself, but a wide array them is rare. You could do that. You'll get one of two results: #1: The fighter will still suck. If you feel this is ok, or you believe the fighter doesn't suck as is, then cool. #2: This additional benefit for fighers will be so good that any fighter would be crazy not to take it. I'm not fond of forcing specific builds on pc's. Yeah, I very much dislike doing so too. Since maneuvers are already available through feats, and the main reason I've been against maneuvers being used for all combat classes is that maneuvers are not really that common, I think I'll just reverse that portion, and say that those who are serious about melee combat will pick these up, regardless (and really, why would a rogue not want to spend two feats for a 5d6 ranged touch attack and +2d6 to all sneak attacks, as well as the possibility to add Dex damage to their melee attacks, if they chase the Shadow Hand chain far enough...)
Crashy75 11-21-06, 07:43 PM	That is true, but only if you can consider manuvers to be the equivalent of tricks that anyone can learn, and don't take obsecne amounts of training. If manuvers are as common as martial arts training is, then it's no problem. But if you define manuvers as being a very advanced state of training, then not everyone who can fight (including some special characters) can do it. I'm leaning more towards saying that maneuvers are fairly commonplace myself, but a wide array them is rare. I see what you're getting at. Basically, i think maneuvers should be rare enough that npc classes should not have access, and common enough that all martial classes do have access. Yeah, I very much dislike doing so too. Since maneuvers are already available through feats, and the main reason I've been against maneuvers being used for all combat classes is that maneuvers are not really that common, I think I'll just reverse that portion, and say that those who are serious about melee combat will pick these up, regardless (and really, why would a rogue not want to spend two feats for a 5d6 ranged touch attack and +2d6 to all sneak attacks, as well as the possibility to add Dex damage to their melee attacks, if they chase the Shadow Hand chain far enough...) Yeah, i was thinking about that too. Can they qualify for the assassin stance? I suppose they might considering the +1/2 lev maneuver progression might make them qualify for 3rd lev stances at lev 10? (as a 5th lev wb would qualify) Or would they only have to qualify for the stance regardles of lev? Anywho, there's no doubt that shadow hand would look very tasty to a rogue.
JoAT 11-22-06, 12:35 AM	I see what you're getting at. Basically, i think maneuvers should be rare enough that npc classes should not have access, and common enough that all martial classes do have access. Not not have access to. After all, they can always take Martial Study, and I'd guess that a fair percentage of warriors in an area that supports it would take the feat. Yeah, i was thinking about that too. Can they qualify for the assassin stance? I suppose they might considering the +1/2 lev maneuver progression might make them qualify for 3rd lev stances at lev 10? (as a 5th lev wb would qualify) Or would they only have to qualify for the stance regardles of lev? Anywho, there's no doubt that shadow hand would look very tasty to a rogue. They do need to meet the level requirement, which, given the example, would be at level 9 rather than 10 (since all the examples seem to round the half levels up). I'd think that going with a level of Swordsage every 3-5 levels would be much better, though, spicing it up with Martial Stance when need be (and does anyone else find it odd that, while you can only take Martial Study three times, you can get as many Stances as you're willing to blow the feats for)?
Crashy75 11-22-06, 11:40 AM	I'd think that going with a level of Swordsage every 3-5 levels would be much better, though, spicing it up with Martial Stance when need be (and does anyone else find it odd that, while you can only take Martial Study three times, you can get as many Stances as you're willing to blow the feats for)? I found it strange too. Back on rogues. Can you imagine a rogue with adaptive style and stalker in the night?
Asurya 11-22-06, 12:46 PM	do you think straight rogue? cause if so, you'll need to be lvl22 at least to get Stalker in the night (6th level maneuver, so 11th IL, so 22th pure nonIL) I would rather lean toward a level of swordsage every now and then, but not more than 5 I think. You end up having a progression like this (max maneuvers in low levels and high rank maneuver in higher levels): IL Man./Sta. level Rog1 0 - SwS1 1 1 Rog2 2 1 Rog3 2 1 Rog4 3 2 Rog5 3 2 Rog6 4 2 SwS2 5 3 --Assassin stance at 8th lvl Rog7 5 3 Rog8 6 3 SwS3 7 4 * Rog9 7 4 Rog10 8 4 SwS4 9 5 Rog11 9 5 Rog12 10 5 Rog13 10 5 SwS5 11 6 * --say hello to Stalker in the night Rog14 12 6 Rog15 12 6 *: when I DM, I authorize the trade of maneuvers if the character's IL matches the class trade pattern (ie 4th a every other level therafter) but only when the character takes a new level in the initiator class. with this, you loose two dice of SA (which are offseted by the Assassin Stance) and two special abilities... to get +2 to Init, 10 maneuver (2 of them being at your max level), 3 stances (one of them at your max level too), a Weapon focus(short sword) for free, Wis to AC in light armor (which is your cap as a Rogue by the way) and Wis to damage on your Shadow Maneuvers. :eek:
Crashy75 11-22-06, 03:17 PM	do you think straight rogue? cause if so, you'll need to be lvl22 at least to get Stalker in the night (6th level maneuver, so 11th IL, so 22th pure nonIL) I would rather lean toward a level of swordsage every now and then, but not more than 5 I think. You end up having a progression like this (max maneuvers in low levels and high rank maneuver in higher levels): IL Man./Sta. level Rog1 0 - SwS1 1 1 Rog2 2 1 Rog3 2 1 Rog4 3 2 Rog5 3 2 Rog6 4 2 SwS2 5 3 --Assassin stance at 8th lvl Rog7 5 3 Rog8 6 3 SwS3 7 4 * Rog9 7 4 Rog10 8 4 SwS4 9 5 Rog11 9 5 Rog12 10 5 Rog13 10 5 SwS5 11 6 * --say hello to Stalker in the night Rog14 12 6 Rog15 12 6 *: when I DM, I authorize the trade of maneuvers if the character's IL matches the class trade pattern (ie 4th a every other level therafter) but only when the character takes a new level in the initiator class. with this, you loose two dice of SA (which are offseted by the Assassin Stance) and two special abilities... to get +2 to Init, 10 maneuver (2 of them being at your max level), 3 stances (one of them at your max level too), a Weapon focus(short sword) for free, Wis to AC in light armor (which is your cap as a Rogue by the way) and Wis to damage on your Shadow Maneuvers. :eek: DAMN!!!!!!
Cowlishj 11-22-06, 05:11 PM	The swordsage has an adaption suggestion that you might swap arcane spells of an equal level for maneuvers. What if soulknives could have maneuver-powers? Something like: Sublime Powers Unlike most conventional manifesters, soulknives do not use a pool of psionic energy to manifest psionic powers, customizing their psionic power as they shape it. Rather they prepare their psionic potential before they use it. This is why a soulknife can instantly reform a blade took them hours to enhance. After much practice and discipline, most soulknives learn to prepare a psychic strike that they can call upon when needed. Some, however, learn a wider variety of strikes. Originally derided as “soulsages,” these soulknives are versatile opponents. Level: 3 Replaces: Soulknives that learn sublime powers do not gain the usual psychic strike, bladewind, knife to the soul abilities, and multiple throw abilities. Benefits: At third level, the soulsage can manifest sublime powers, with a manifester level equal to the soulsage’s level. Soulsages can learn two types of sublime powers. Strike-powers are powers from the wilder power list that do not have the “harmless” qualifier in either the saving throw or power resistance, and either have a “range: touch”, “effect: ray”, or “target: one creature”. Boost-powers are powers from the psychic warrior power list that have a range of personal and a manifesting time of 1 standard action or less. Unlike normal manifesters, a soulsage does not manifest powers using power points. Instead, soulsages ready sublime powers in advance. An individual sublime power may not be readied more than once. Readying sublime powers requires 5 minutes of concentration. At third level, a soulsage knows two first-level sublime powers, and can ready both. A new sublime power is learned every odd level thereafter. Starting at ninth level, soulsages can learn second level sublime powers. At fifteenth level and later, soulsages can learn third level sublime powers. An additional sublime power can be readied at seventh, eleventh, fifteenth, and nineteenth levels. A soulsage can recover an expended sublime power as a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity with a successful Concentration check (DC 15 + 5 x level of the power). To use a boost-power, a soulsage must use either a swift or immediate action to expend the boost-power. If the equivalent power has a manifesting time of either a swift or immediate action, the power works normally. If the power would normally have a manifesting time of a standard action, the boost-power has a manifesting time of a swift action- however the power’s duration becomes one round. Either way the effects of the boost-power are determined as if the soulsage had spent a number of power points equal to one-half the soulsage’s manifester level. To use a strike-power, a soulsage uses a standard action to make a melee attack with a mind blade. If the attack is successful, the target takes damage from the attack as normal, as well as being targeted by the sublime power. Hit or miss, the strike-power is expended. Strike-powers take affect as if the soulsage had spent a number of power points up to two-thirds the soulsage’s manifester level. The saving throw (if any) is Wisdom based. Starting at ninth level, a soulsage can expend a strike-power as part of a full attack action. Every target struck with the mind blade until the beginning of the soulsage’s next turn (including those hit during the full attack routine), is affected by the strike-power, in addition to taking normal damage. The strike-power is not as effective as normal however: targets get a +2 bonus on any saving throws required, and the strike-power takes effect as if the soulsage had spent power points equal to one-third the soulsage’s manifester level. Starting at seventeenth level, a thrown mind blade can be used to deliver a strike-power. Soulsages can also gain a couple of feats Power Meditation [Psionic] Prerequisite: Soulknife 3+ with the sublime power feature. Benefit: Choose one soulsage power you know. You can recover the chosen power as a move action. Normal: Recovering an expended power normally takes a full-round. Special: This feat can be taken multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time a different power must be chosen. Expanded Sublime Knowledge [Psionic] Prerequisite: Soulknife 12+ with the sublime power feature. Benefit: As Expanded Knowledge, except only powers that do not have the “harmless” tag can be chosen as sublime powers. The chosen power is expended as if it had been manifested with a number of power points equal to one half the soulsage’s manifester level.