Classes based on monster HD [Archive] - Wizards Community

Classes based on monster HD [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ArochanoX
01-09-08, 03:31 AM First I have to state that I'm proficient with Savage Species and monstrous classes / savage progressions that is represented there and in several newer books.

And now to the point.

As we know, there are multiple monster types and each of them have their own HD, saves, Skill points and BAB progressions. Wotc have divided them into 3 power groups based on how powerful they are:

Powergroup 1: Aberration
(weakest) Construct
Deathless*
Elemental
Fey
Giant
Humanoid
Ooze
Plant
Undead
Vermin
Powergroup 2: Animal
(average) Magical Beast
Monstrous Humanoid
Powergroup 3: Dragon
(strongest) Outsider

* I'm just guessing that the deathless type belongs to the weakest group as undead do.

Remember to note that most of the creatures belonging into powergroups 2 and 3 have usually extraordinary or supernatural abilities that increase in power as more hit dice are added, where those monsters belonging to powergroup 1 usually have none or few of them.

Now, the reason that I posted this thread is that I want to know how much bonus feats should each of these monstrous hit dice give to make it a balanced (fighter-like = vanilla = no special class abilities) class from level 1 to level 20. I won't add here all the types because they are unplayable by the rules represented in MM. Like oozes and vermin that are mindless.

POWERGROUP 1

Aberration
An aberration has a bizarre anatomy, strange abilities, an alien mindset, or any combination of the three.

Hit Die: d8
Skill Points: 2+Int

lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +0 +0 +0 +2 Darkvision out to 60 feet
2 +1 +0 +0 +3
3 +2 +1 +1 +3
4 +3 +1 +1 +4
5 +3 +1 +1 +4
6 +4 +2 +2 +5
7 +5 +2 +2 +5
8 +6 +2 +2 +6
9 +6 +3 +3 +6
10 +7 +3 +3 +7
11 +8 +3 +3 +7
12 +9 +4 +4 +8
13 +9 +4 +4 +8
14 +10 +4 +4 +9
15 +11 +5 +5 +9
16 +12 +5 +5 +10
17 +12 +5 +5 +10
18 +13 +6 +6 +11
19 +14 +6 +6 +11
20 +15 +6 +6 +12

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies:
Aberration is proficient with all simple weapons, but with no armor and no shields.

Aberration Type:
Aberrations are immune to all spells and effects that are listed to effect only humanoids like charm person and enlarge person.

Darkivision:
Aberrations have keen sight and can see out to 60ft in total darkness.

Construct
A construct is an animated object or artificially constructed creature.

Hit Die: d10
Skill Points: 2+Int

lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +0 +0 +0 +0 No Constitution Score
Low-light vision
Darkvision out to 60 feet
Immunities
Bonus hit points
2 +1 +0 +0 +0
3 +2 +1 +1 +1
4 +3 +1 +1 +1
5 +3 +1 +1 +1
6 +4 +2 +2 +2
7 +5 +2 +2 +2
8 +6 +2 +2 +2
9 +6 +3 +3 +3
10 +7 +3 +3 +3
11 +8 +3 +3 +3
12 +9 +4 +4 +4
13 +9 +4 +4 +4
14 +10 +4 +4 +4
15 +11 +5 +5 +5
16 +12 +5 +5 +5
17 +12 +5 +5 +5
18 +13 +6 +6 +6
19 +14 +6 +6 +6
20 +15 +6 +6 +6

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies:
Construct is proficient with all simple weapons, but with no armor and no shields.

Construct Type:
Constructs are immune to all spells and effects that are listed to effect only humanoids like charm person and enlarge person. Also, constructs are not at risk of death from massive damage. Immediately destroyed when reduced to 0hit points or less. Since it was never alive, a construct cannot be raised or resurrected. Constructs cannot heal damage on their own, but they benefit from the repair spells (Complete Arcane) or through the use of the Craft Construct feat.

No Constitution Score:
A construct loses its constitution score and is thus immune to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and necromancy effects. And constructs as they aren't alive they do not eat, sleep, or breathe.

Low-Light Vision:
Constructs have keen sight and can see twice as far as humans in starlight, moonlight or otherwise in shadowy illumination.

Darkivision:
Constructs have keen sight and can see out to 60ft in total darkness.

Immunities:
Constructs are also immune to or not subject to following effects:
- all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects),
- any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects, or is harmless),
- critical hits,
- nonlethal damage,
- ability damage,
- ability drain,
- fatigue,
- exhaustion, and
- energy drain.

Bonus hit points:
Because its body is a mass of unliving matter, a construct is hard to destroy. A construct gains 20 hit points (assuming medium size) at level 1.

Elemental
An elemental is a being composed of one of the four classical elements: air, earth, fire, or water.

Elementals aren't included because all other elemental subtypes besides fire grant special movement modes like fly speed or burrow speed that are too powerful for a lvl 1 abilities. I might incorporate them later, if there's need.

Fey
A fey is a creature with supernatural abilities and connections to nature or to some other force or place. Fey are usually human-shaped.

Hit Die: d6
Skill Points: 6+Int

lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +0 +0 +2 +2 Low-Light Vision
2 +1 +0 +3 +3
3 +1 +1 +3 +3
4 +2 +1 +4 +4
5 +2 +1 +4 +4
6 +3 +2 +5 +5
7 +3 +2 +5 +5
8 +4 +2 +6 +6
9 +4 +3 +6 +6
10 +5 +3 +7 +7
11 +5 +3 +7 +7
12 +6 +4 +8 +8
13 +6 +4 +8 +8
14 +7 +4 +9 +9
15 +7 +5 +9 +9
16 +8 +5 +10 +10
17 +8 +5 +10 +10
18 +9 +6 +11 +11
19 +9 +6 +11 +11
20 +10 +6 +12 +12

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies:
Fey is proficient with all simple weapons, but with no armor and no shields.

Fey Type:
Aberrations are immune to all spells and effects that are listed to effect only humanoids like charm person and enlarge person.

Low-Light Vision:
Fey have keen sight and can see twice as far as humans in starlight, moonlight or otherwise in shadowy illumination.

Giant
A giant is a humanoid-shaped creature of great strength, usually of at least Large size.

Since giants are just bigger humanoids (even rules and statistics say so), they are not included, as this survey is about medium sized creatures.

Humanoid
A humanoid usually has two arms, two legs, and one head, or a humanlike torso, arms, and a head. Humanoids have few or no supernatural or extraordinary abilities, but most can speak and usually have well-developed societies. They usually are Small or Medium.

Hit Die: d8
Skill Points: 2+Int

lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +0 +0 +2 +0
2 +1 +0 +3 +0
3 +2 +1 +3 +1
4 +3 +1 +4 +1
5 +3 +1 +4 +1
6 +4 +2 +5 +2
7 +5 +2 +5 +2
8 +6 +2 +6 +2
9 +6 +3 +6 +3
10 +7 +3 +7 +3
11 +8 +3 +7 +3
12 +9 +4 +8 +4
13 +9 +4 +8 +4
14 +10 +4 +9 +4
15 +11 +5 +9 +5
16 +12 +5 +10 +5
17 +12 +5 +10 +5
18 +13 +6 +11 +6
19 +14 +6 +11 +6
20 +15 +6 +12 +6

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies:
Humanoid is proficient with all simple weapons, but with no armor and no shields.

Humanoid Type:
Humanoids are effected by spells and effects that target humanoids only. Like charm person and enlarge person.

Ooze
An ooze is an amorphous or mutable creature, usually mindless.

Oozes are mindless and thus unplayable.

Plant
This type comprises vegetable creatures.

Hit Die: d8
Skill Points: 2+Int

lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +0 +2 +0 +0 Low-Light Vision
Immunities
2 +1 +3 +0 +0
3 +2 +3 +1 +1
4 +3 +4 +1 +1
5 +3 +4 +1 +1
6 +4 +5 +2 +2
7 +5 +5 +2 +2
8 +6 +6 +2 +2
9 +6 +6 +3 +3
10 +7 +7 +3 +3
11 +8 +7 +3 +3
12 +9 +8 +4 +4
13 +9 +8 +4 +4
14 +10 +9 +4 +4
15 +11 +9 +5 +5
16 +12 +10 +5 +5
17 +12 +10 +5 +5
18 +13 +11 +6 +6
19 +14 +11 +6 +6
20 +15 +12 +6 +6

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies:
Plant is proficient with no weapons, and with no armor or shields.

Plant Type:
Plants are immune to all spells and effects that are listed to effect only humanoids like charm person and enlarge person, but they are effected by spells that effect plants only. Plants do not sleep, but they need to eat and breathe.

Low-Light Vision:
Plants have keen sight and can see twice as far as humans in starlight, moonlight or otherwise in shadowy illumination.

Immunities:
Plants are also immune to or not subject to following effects:
- all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects),
- poison,
- sleep effects,
- paralysis,
- polymorph,
- stunning, and
- critical hits.

Undead (and Deathless)
Undead are once-living creatures animated by spiritual or supernatural forces.

Deathless are similar in many ways to both living creatures and undead. However, while undead represent the mockery of life and a violation of natural order and death, the deathless merely stave off the inevitability of death to accoplish a righteous purpose.

Hit Die: d12
Skill Points: 4+Int

lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +0 +0 +0 +2 No constitution score
Darkvision out to 60 feet
Immunities
2 +1 +0 +0 +3
3 +1 +1 +1 +3
4 +2 +1 +1 +4
5 +2 +1 +1 +4
6 +3 +2 +2 +5
7 +3 +2 +2 +5
8 +4 +2 +2 +6
9 +4 +3 +3 +6
10 +5 +3 +3 +7
11 +5 +3 +3 +7
12 +6 +4 +4 +8
13 +6 +4 +4 +8
14 +7 +4 +4 +9
15 +7 +5 +5 +9
16 +8 +5 +5 +10
17 +8 +5 +5 +10
18 +9 +6 +6 +11
19 +9 +6 +6 +11
20 +11 +6 +6 +12

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies:
Undead is proficient with all simple weapons, but with no armor and no shields.

Undead Type:
Undeads are immune to all spells and effects that are listed to effect only humanoids like charm person and enlarge person. Also, undeads are not at risk of death from massive damage. Immediately destroyed when reduced to 0hit points or less. Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead. Undeads heal damage as normal living creatures as they are intelligent, they benefit from the inflict spells instead of cure spells. (Deathless count as living creatures in this matter.)

No Constitution Score:
An undead loses its constitution score and is thus immune to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects. And undeads, as they aren't alive they do not eat, sleep, or breathe.

Darkivision:
Undeads have keen sight and can see out to 60ft in total darkness.

Immunities:
Undeads are also immune to or not subject to following effects:
- all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects),
- any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects, or is harmless),
- critical hits,
- nonlethal damage,
- ability damage to its physical ability scores (Strenght and Dexterity),
- ability drain,
- fatigue,
- exhaustion, and
- energy drain.

Special Rules:
Undeads use their charisma score for concentration checks. Undeads can be turned and can be affected by many spells and abilities that have special effect on undeads. (Deathless have also numerous spells and effect that have special effect on them, basically they are the opposite of undead's. More on that matter in Book of Exalted Deeds pg 157 and Eberron Campaing Setting pg 275.)

Vermin
This type includes insects, arachnids, other arthropods, worms, and similar invertebrates.

Vermins are mindless and thus left out of this survey.

POWERGROUP 2

Animal
An animal is a living, nonhuman creature, usually a vertebrate with no magical abilities and no innate capacity for language or culture.

Animals are allowed to have intelligence score of only 1 or 2, so are effectively unplayable to players.

Magical Beast
Magical beasts are similar to animals but can have Intelligence scores higher than 2. Magical beasts usually have supernatural or extraordinary abilities, but sometimes are merely bizarre in appearance or habits.

Hit Die: d10
Skill Points: 2+Int

lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +1 +2 +2 +0 Darkvision out to 60 feet
Low-light vision
2 +2 +3 +3 +0
3 +3 +3 +3 +1
4 +4 +4 +4 +1
5 +5 +4 +4 +1
6 +6 +5 +5 +2
7 +7 +5 +5 +2
8 +8 +6 +6 +2
9 +9 +6 +6 +3
10 +10 +7 +7 +3
11 +11 +7 +7 +3
12 +12 +8 +8 +4
13 +13 +8 +8 +4
14 +14 +9 +9 +4
15 +15 +9 +9 +5
16 +16 +10 +10 +5
17 +17 +10 +10 +5
18 +18 +11 +11 +6
19 +19 +11 +11 +6
20 +20 +12 +12 +6

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies:
Magical beast isn't proficient with any weapons, and with no armor or shields.

Magical Beast Type:
Magical beasts are immune to all spells and effects that are listed to effect only humanoids like charm person and enlarge person.

Darkivision:
Magical beasts have keen sight and can see out to 60ft in total darkness.

Low-Light Vision:
Magical beasts have keen sight and can see twice as far as humans in starlight, moonlight or otherwise in shadowy illumination.

Monstrous Humanoid
Monstrous humanoids are similar to humanoids, but with monstrous or animalistic features. They often have magical abilities as well.

Hit Die: d8
Skill Points: 2+Int

lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +1 +0 +2 +2 Darkvision out to 60 feet
2 +2 +0 +3 +3
3 +3 +1 +3 +3
4 +4 +1 +4 +4
5 +5 +1 +4 +4
6 +6 +2 +5 +5
7 +7 +2 +5 +5
8 +8 +2 +6 +6
9 +9 +3 +6 +6
10 +10 +3 +7 +7
11 +11 +3 +7 +7
12 +12 +4 +8 +8
13 +13 +4 +8 +8
14 +14 +4 +9 +9
15 +15 +5 +9 +9
16 +16 +5 +10 +10
17 +17 +5 +10 +10
18 +18 +6 +11 +11
19 +19 +6 +11 +11
20 +20 +6 +12 +12

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies:
Monstrous humanoid is proficient with all simple weapons, but with no armor and no shields.

Monstrous Humanoid Type:
Monstrous humanoids are immune to all spells and effects that are listed to effect only humanoids like charm person and enlarge person.

Darkivision:
Monstrous humanoids have keen sight and can see out to 60ft in total darkness.

POWERGROUP 3

Dragon
A dragon is a reptilelike creature, usually winged, with magical or unusual abilities.

Hit Die: d12
Skill Points: 6+Int

lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +1 +2 +2 +2 Darkvision out to 60 feet
Low-light vision
Immunities
2 +2 +3 +3 +3
3 +3 +3 +3 +3
4 +4 +4 +4 +4
5 +5 +4 +4 +4
6 +6 +5 +5 +5
7 +7 +5 +5 +5
8 +8 +6 +6 +6
9 +9 +6 +6 +6
10 +10 +7 +7 +7
11 +11 +7 +7 +7
12 +12 +8 +8 +8
13 +13 +8 +8 +8
14 +14 +9 +9 +9
15 +15 +9 +9 +9
16 +16 +10 +10 +10
17 +17 +10 +10 +10
18 +18 +11 +11 +11
19 +19 +11 +11 +11
20 +20 +12 +12 +12

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies:
Dragon is proficient with all simple weapons, but with no armor and no shields.

Dragon Type:
Dragons are immune to all spells and effects that are listed to effect only humanoids like charm person and enlarge person.

Darkivision:
Dragons have keen sight and can see out to 60ft in total darkness.

Low-Light Vision:
Dragons have keen sight and can see twice as far as humans in starlight, moonlight or otherwise in shadowy illumination.

Immunities:
Dragon is immune to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects.

Outsider (native)
An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence.

Hit Die: d10
Skill Points: 8+Int

lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +1 +2 +2 +2 Darkvision out to 60 feet
2 +2 +3 +3 +3
3 +3 +3 +3 +3
4 +4 +4 +4 +4
5 +5 +4 +4 +4
6 +6 +5 +5 +5
7 +7 +5 +5 +5
8 +8 +6 +6 +6
9 +9 +6 +6 +6
10 +10 +7 +7 +7
11 +11 +7 +7 +7
12 +12 +8 +8 +8
13 +13 +8 +8 +8
14 +14 +9 +9 +9
15 +15 +9 +9 +9
16 +16 +10 +10 +10
17 +17 +10 +10 +10
18 +18 +11 +11 +11
19 +19 +11 +11 +11
20 +20 +12 +12 +12

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies:
Outsider is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, but with no armor and no shields.

Outsider Type:
Dragons are immune to all spells and effects that are listed to effect only humanoids like charm person and enlarge person. Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Native outsiders breathe, eat and sleep as normal.

Darkivision:
Outsiders have keen sight and can see out to 60ft in total darkness.

Now. To the point: How many (evenly divided among the 20 levels) bonus feats should each of the above "classes" have to make them balanced when compared to fighter and other base classes? I made this gallup to see the slighter differences of monstrous hit dice and to help adjusting power of monsters and character classes. It also helps assinging LA to the creatures that normally do not have it listed.

I'll keep here a listing of the results:

average
Powergroup 1: Aberration -
(weakest) Construct -
Deathless* -
Elemental - XX
Fey -
Giant - XX
Humanoid -
Ooze - XX
Plant -
Undead -
Vermin - XX
Powergroup 2: Animal - XX
(average) Magical Beast -
Monstrous Humanoid -
Powergroup 3: Dragon -
(strongest) Outsider -

My opinions about the amount of bonus feats:

my humble opinion
Powergroup 1: Aberration - 15 (vanilla rogue)
(weakest) Construct - 6 (immunities are huge)
Deathless* - 7 (immunities are huge, but vulnerable)
Elemental - XX
Fey - 20 (vanilla wizard, and even wizard gets bonus feats)
Giant - XX
Humanoid - 17 (weaker than aberration, better than fey)
Ooze - XX
Plant - 8 (good immunities, but not as good as construct's)
Undead - 7 (immunities are huge, but vulnerable)
Vermin - XX
Powergroup 2: Animal - XX
(average) Magical Beast - 11 (fighter without proficiencies, but with better saves)
Monstrous Humanoid - 11 (same as above)
Powergroup 3: Dragon - 4 (monk with steroids, but doesn't have all the neat monk abilities)
(strongest) Outsider - 5 (same as above, but the higher skill poinds won't offset the penalty of weaker HD)
ArochanoX
01-10-08, 11:53 AM no replies... hummm... Maybe too difficult question, too long post or a subject that isn't interesting. Well, :bump:
AtsuiShoto
01-10-08, 01:37 PM A bit hasty on the bump button, are we?

I'm not sure what sort of bonus feats you're handing out here, or your precise goal for doing so. If you're proposing just generic feats, it smacks of a sloppy "class" design, as it lacks any sort of flavor revolving around the "class" theme. Of course, I don't actually know you're trying to make classes, so I may be off here. That said, 20 bonus feats over 20 levels is just insane.
ArochanoX
01-10-08, 04:55 PM A bit hasty on the bump button, are we?

Roughly 32 and a half hours between posts.

I'm not sure what sort of bonus feats you're handing out here, or your precise goal for doing so. If you're proposing just generic feats, it smacks of a sloppy "class" design, as it lacks any sort of flavor revolving around the "class" theme. Of course, I don't actually know you're trying to make classes, so I may be off here.

You can also think the term bonus feat as a class feature that is roughly as powerful as one feat. That could be paladin's detect evil ability, monk's flurry of blows, wizard's familiar, druid's trackless step or fighter's bonus feat. It might also be other (flavorly fitting) bonus feat.

The goal is to adjust racial hit dice so that one could make a monster that is roughly as powerful as a PC with the same level, or to calculate monster's LA or to create more classes.

That said, 20 bonus feats over 20 levels is just insane.

20 is much, but fey HD suck hard :D. What other suggestions would you have? More like 15 bonus feats or 10?
Talisman
01-10-08, 05:57 PM Well, let's use the oft-maligned fighter as an example. The fighter gets one good save, good BAB, and no class abilities. He gets 11 bonus feats - 1 per 2 levels, essentially.

The fighter is usually considered sub-optimal due the fact that feats =/= class abilities. Additionally, one usually wants a class feature (or improvement on an exisiting class feature) every level or so, except in the case of full casters. A few dead levels are acceptable, but in general, dead levels are to be avoided. It has even been stated that a fighter with a bonus feat every level wouldn't be unbalanced (I've never tested this myself).

With that in mind, I can't see fewer than 10 bonus feats (= class abilities = advancements of same) for any creature type. Dragons and outsiders push it, but how good can the base chassis be before you're willing to accept two or more levels of nothing?

Of course, spells or spell-analogues (pionics, weird alien powers, whatever) make up for this a great deal, but none of these "classes" grant any such thing, at least, not by default.

Thus, I would say Power Group #3 should get a minimum of 10 "bonus feats," possibly up to 15 depending on the specifics. Power Group #2 should get at least 15, possibly up to 20, and Power Group #1 should get around 20, possibly more.

A lot depends on the specifics of the abilities granted, whether they scale with level, what the creature's focus is (melee basher, "spellcaster,", etc).
ArochanoX
01-11-08, 06:21 AM With that in mind, I can't see fewer than 10 bonus feats (= class abilities = advancements of same) for any creature type. Dragons and outsiders push it, but how good can the base chassis be before you're willing to accept two or more levels of nothing?

I totally understand your point. It is important, but we also have to consider the power of different class abilities. Not every ability is worth a feat, and there are feats that have different power levels. But a feat is a good measure of power because a player will use the feats to best benefit his style of play. If a player wants to focus on certain skills, he'll probably take feats that improve the skill and a player who wants to focus on tripping will take feats that improve the tripping capabilities. So no matter the specialization, feat is always a boon to the primary ability of the character and thus a good measure. When the need of addintional power is measured (the number of feats, we can start adjusting the fluff and role of the class).

Thus, I would say Power Group #3 should get a minimum of 10 "bonus feats," possibly up to 15 depending on the specifics. Power Group #2 should get at least 15, possibly up to 20, and Power Group #1 should get around 20, possibly more.

Thanks for your opinion.

A lot depends on the specifics of the abilities granted, whether they scale with level, what the creature's focus is (melee basher, "spellcaster,", etc).

Sure!
AtsuiShoto
01-11-08, 09:55 PM Granting 20+ actual, generic bonus feats would be insane, so it's good you mean feat-equivalent class features instead. Just so long as these are fixed class features, you can make sure when you design them that they are not overly synergistic. Otherwise, you can get things like overly many Luck feats, Heritage feats, Psionic feats (with Psionic Body for +2 HP/lvl). That sort of thing.
JaronK
01-12-08, 04:34 AM I'm confused as to the point of all this. Abberations and such usually have awesome racial abilities and a large number of attacks along with those HD, something that no amount of random bonus feats can replace.

JaronK
ArochanoX
01-12-08, 06:10 AM I'm confused as to the point of all this. Abberations and such usually have awesome racial abilities and a large number of attacks along with those HD, something that no amount of random bonus feats can replace.

The thing is to see the power level of every and each monstrous Hd (and type) so adjusting LA could be easier. If an aberration has 5 racial HD and LA of 5, how many more aberration HD should be added to reduce the LA to 0 (assuming little or no powerful abilities that scale with level). And what if the same monster had dragon HD. How many HD should be now added? What if I removed all the racial HD altogether.

And basically one extra (secondary) natural attack is equilevalent of one feat. Examples can be given from two-weapon fighting feat tree or lords of madness's aberrant feats also draconomicon's rapid strike is a generic example. Given that the feat uses average (or weaker) damage per size and it might have some prerequirements.

Feats represent power. And feat is a good measure of power as it always benefits the character/monster the best way because the controller of the character/monster wants to make the best of the feat.

Granting 20+ actual, generic bonus feats would be insane, so it's good you mean feat-equivalent class features instead. Just so long as these are fixed class features, you can make sure when you design them that they are not overly synergistic. Otherwise, you can get things like overly many Luck feats, Heritage feats, Psionic feats (with Psionic Body for +2 HP/lvl). That sort of thing.

I agree 100%
ArochanoX
01-17-08, 10:53 AM no other ideas or comments?

:bump: