Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Howland Reed 02-23-08, 08:50 PM	All right, I've finished going through Complete Divine, and whoever said it in my other thread is right...this isn't power creep, this is just some crap design. Here are some modifications I'm making to some of the PrCs, to make them a little more in line with how I think balance should be (in some cases, to make them actually worth playing). I'd love people to tell me what they think, or to let me know if there's something I'm missing that makes these classes okay as they are, or if making the changes I suggest are way out of line. Consecrated Harrier: --Increase skill points to 6/lvl --Allow casting to stack with Ranger casting Divine Crusader: --Increase BAB to full (1/1) Geomancer: --Full casting progression for both divine/arcane casting --At 10th, your type changes to one of the following: magical beast, fey, or plant (depending on drift traits gained) Holy Liberator: --this is simply a watered-down version of the Paladin of Freedom. Use that instead (though I'm going to sub the break enchantment for cure disease). Hospitaler: --OMG, this class sucks so hard it's not even funny. It's like taking Paladin levels, but without some of the good stuff Pallys get, with d8 HD (WTF?), and trading 3 levels of casting for 3 fighter feats. Why anyone would take this class I can't imagine. Want fighter feats? Dip fighter...you'll get d10 HD and 3 feats in 4 levels (as opposed to 3 in 10). You lose 4 caster levels...but hey, hospitaler has to lose 2 to get 2 feats, why quibble? Maybe a cleric...say you went Clr4/XX2 (where XX = Pally, Fighter, Ranger...anything to get the skills/BAB). Now you can advance your Clr casting, and end up casting as a Clr11 at lvl 16. Compare? -BAB is +15, to a Clr's +12. OK. -Saves are 14/4/7 (+ divine grace, if you went that way), to a Clr's 10/5/10. Hmmm...kinda even? Trade 3 Will + 1 Ref for 4 Fort (I consider that a bad trade, personally). -HD are slightly better, as you get the 2 levels of d10. Meh. -In place of turning increase, you get 3 fighter feats. Meh. -Spells...man, do you lose. You're just getting 6th...the Clr's getting 8th, and had them when you were limited to 5th. 5/4/4/3/2/1 vs. 5/5/5/4/4/3/3/2? You're just blown away. 1 more 2nd/3rd/4th, 2 more 5th/6th, plus 3 7th and 2 8th. Yikes. Well, let's say I was willing to trade away those caster levels. Could I get more for them? -Take Clr11, have 5 levels to play with. Let's go Pal2/Ftr2/Crs1. I have the same casting as Mr. Hospitaler, but have +13 BAB (still a little behind), saves of 15/3/7 (trading 1 Ref for 1 Fort), better HD (5d10 instead of 2), 2 fighter feats (to the Hospitaler's 3), but MANEUVERS (depending on when you dip Crs, IL could be 5th-10th). You lose...what, lay on hands & cure disease? Give me a break. Or say you did Clr10 and blew crossclass up the wazoo...now you cast as Clr17 at 20th, 9th spells, not too shabby. But why not just go straight Clr? You traded 3 caster levels, a couple feats, and all your skill points for 2 points of BAB and 3 fighter feats? Pretty much? I don't know how to fix this one. I'm writing it off. Anyone else? Pious Templar --Let it stack with Paladin/Blackguard casting --Smiting: add the uses/day from Templar directly to your uses from your other class (1/day each at 2nd/6th/10th, instead of the BS reduction you get if you're stacking it). Or, at your option, you don't have to stack them; since Templar smiting is just plain "smite" not "smite whatever", if you want to keep it separate from your other smiting, you can. You make this decision when you first gain the ability, and cannot change it. Radiant Servant --Holy crap, here's a nice high-powered PrC to make up for the rest. Why didn't they just write "because all that stuff about not wanting to clerics to be healbots was just a load of bull" in the description? What do you lose? Your HD drops to d6 instead of d8. That's about it. What do you gain? You mean, instead of the big goose egg you get as a cleric? How about a ton of stuff? All that said, I see no need to nerf them. Shining Blade --Wow, this is pretty suck too. I see a couple of fixes. 1.) give it full casting progression. 2.) make the abilities constant...free action to activate, unlimited duration while the blade's in your hand. With this option, give Shock at 1st, Shocking Burst (upgrade) at 3rd, Holy (additional) at 6th, and Brilliant (additional) at 9th-10th. Go to town. 3.) A mix...give 1 use per day of "sword enhancement" per class level, and require separate uses for each ability; but make activation a swift action to activate as many as you want. ALSO, have it advance full paladin spell progression...maybe even stack with Pally level for lay on hands or smite (this is mostly a pally PrC, as I see it). If you want the cleric option there, have it advance half-cleric, but full-pally. Temple Raider --Increase skills to 6/lvl --I'd add a few more spells to the spell list...Spider Climb, maybe, or Knock. Stuff like that. Suggestions? --Maybe give Luck Domain a little earlier? Hell, I'd give it at 1st, and find a new capstone, but you could move it to 7th without much trouble. Ur-Priest --Does anyone have an alternate name for this class? --Why the hell do they have to be evil? I'd think siphoning power from evil gods would be a GOOD thing, neh? Thanks.
JaronK 02-23-08, 09:03 PM	Geomancer: --Full casting progression for both divine/arcane casting --At 10th, your type changes to one of the following: magical beast, fey, or plant (depending on drift traits gained) Don't you think that's a bit much? It would just be a Mystic Theurge, only better. Not saying MTs are all that hot, but still. Shining Blade --Wow, this is pretty suck too. I see a couple of fixes. 1.) give it full casting progression. 2.) make the abilities constant...free action to activate, unlimited duration while the blade's in your hand. With this option, give Shock at 1st, Shocking Burst (upgrade) at 3rd, Holy (additional) at 6th, and Brilliant (additional) at 9th-10th. Go to town. 3.) A mix...give 1 use per day of "sword enhancement" per class level, and require separate uses for each ability; but make activation a swift action to activate as many as you want. ALSO, have it advance full paladin spell progression...maybe even stack with Pally level for lay on hands or smite (this is mostly a pally PrC, as I see it). If you want the cleric option there, have it advance half-cleric, but full-pally. This class won the CO boards award for least usable PrC ever. It was actually written by Hexor to screw with Heironeous. JaronK
ciaran 02-23-08, 10:00 PM	It would be fun to play an Ur-priest. I've tried to concoct some good build for it, like skill crossclassing as a sorcerer, but I think it is, like many others, mostly an NPC class.
Cartigan 02-23-08, 10:16 PM	Pious Templar --Let it stack with Paladin/Blackguard casting Why? That's a stupid change. Pious Templar can be entered without being a Paladin.
Howland Reed 02-25-08, 01:43 AM	Don't you think that's a bit much? It would just be a Mystic Theurge, only better. Not saying MTs are all that hot, but still. Frankly, I'm not worried about making the MTh obsolete, since it's not that great to begin with. But you're right, I wrote that in a hurry...I'll probably do the Ultimate Magus-style thing I talked about in my last thread; every odd level, advance whichever has the lower class level (I'm not making the same mistake the UM designers did...no practiced spellcaster chicanery), every even level advance both. Why? That's a stupid change. Pious Templar can be entered without being a Paladin Yes, I'm aware. I set LET it stack, not make it ONLY stack. If you get into PT without casting, you get the normal chart in the PrC. If you get in with paladin/blackguard casting, you're better off advancing your existing casting than getting a second (crappy) progression. So let it stack.
archerpwr 02-25-08, 02:31 AM	Frankly, I'm not worried about making the MTh obsolete, since it's not that great to begin with. But you're right, I wrote that in a hurry...I'll probably do the Ultimate Magus-style thing I talked about in my last thread; every odd level, advance whichever has the lower class level (I'm not making the same mistake the UM designers did...no practiced spellcaster chicanery), every even level advance both. Yes, I'm aware. I set LET it stack, not make it ONLY stack. If you get into PT without casting, you get the normal chart in the PrC. If you get in with paladin/blackguard casting, you're better off advancing your existing casting than getting a second (crappy) progression. So let it stack. Pious Templar casting is strictly better than paladin casting.
Sinfire Titan 02-25-08, 02:40 AM	It would be fun to play an Ur-priest. I've tried to concoct some good build for it, like skill crossclassing as a sorcerer, but I think it is, like many others, mostly an NPC class. Wha wha WHAT! Are you on freaking crack!? Ur-Priest is the single strongest Divine casting PrC that doesn't advance standard Divine casting! 9th level Cleric spells in 9 levels? SR 20 against Divine casters? Steal a Wish from a Called Pit Fiend? And Rebuking? For the cost of two feats and a few ranks with an Evil alignment? Hello Broken! If anything this class is overpowered! A 10 level PrC that grants full 9th level spells is wrong. Especially considering that a 4th level Human character can enter it with three feats.
Sinfire Titan 02-25-08, 02:41 AM	Pious Templar casting is strictly better than paladin casting. Pious Templar can't cast 90% of their spells as a Swift action though. Otherwise, I agree with you.
Cartigan 02-25-08, 09:04 AM	Yes, I'm aware. I set LET it stack, not make it ONLY stack. If you get into PT without casting, you get the normal chart in the PrC. If you get in with paladin/blackguard casting, you're better off advancing your existing casting than getting a second (crappy) progression. So let it stack. That is needlessly convoluted and there is no precedent because of it.
Tectorman 02-25-08, 10:20 AM	Don't you think that's a bit much? It would just be a Mystic Theurge, only better. Not saying MTs are all that hot, but still. This class won the CO boards award for least usable PrC ever. It was actually written by Hexor to screw with Heironeous. JaronK What? There's a PrC that beat out the Storm Disciple from CPsi?
Mr_Teapot 02-25-08, 12:31 PM	If anything this class is overpowered! A 10 level PrC that grants full 9th level spells is wrong. Especially considering that a 4th level Human character can enter it with three feats. Ur-Priest requires at least 8 ranks in a couple skills, so the earliest your could take an actual Ur-Priest level is 6th. So there's only a very narrow range (12 through 15th level) where an Ur-Priest is ahead of a cleric in spellcasting ability. But I agree strongly that Ur-Priests shouldn't need to be Evil. If anything, stealing from the gods is a Chaotic act, as you are subverting the rules of how religion works. But stealing from an evil god should be a good act. Luckily, my GM agrees with this interpretation and so I'm playing a chaoic good Ur-Priest in our game right now.
Sinfire Titan 02-25-08, 01:01 PM	Ur-Priest requires at least 8 ranks in a couple skills, so the earliest your could take an actual Ur-Priest level is 6th. So there's only a very narrow range (12 through 15th level) where an Ur-Priest is ahead of a cleric in spellcasting ability. But I agree strongly that Ur-Priests shouldn't need to be Evil. If anything, stealing from the gods is a Chaotic act, as you are subverting the rules of how religion works. But stealing from an evil god should be a good act. Luckily, my GM agrees with this interpretation and so I'm playing a chaoic good Ur-Priest in our game right now. Well, actually that depends on one thing: 1: If the feat from RoD/Cityscape that lets you exceed your maximum Ranks/Level can be taken more than once for separate skills and If that condition is met, then a Binder 1/Wiz 3 can enter the PrC at 5th level, instead of taking the first level at 6th by investing max Ranks in Spellcraft/Knowledge (Religion) at 4th using that feat. I also agree that Ur-Priest shouldn't be Evil depending on how they roll with stealing their spells from a God. I, for one, can see adapting the PrC to other alignments other than Lawful. Makes very little sense for Lawful characters.
The_Shaman 02-25-08, 03:01 PM	Pious Templar can't cast 90% of their spells as a Swift action though. Otherwise, I agree with you. Neither does a paladin if CChamp is not in the game. If it is, the PTemplar uses the same list, so it could easily be covered by the same feat. I see your point, though. On Hospitaller: believe it or not, this class actually has one of the better combinations of full BAB and cleric spellcasting. It's not especially impressive, sure, but unless you qualify for Fist of Raziel or bring up regional/3.0 material such as the Windwalker, Verdant Lord or anything similar, you don't get much better. On the other hand ,the PrC is a solid contender for most absurd alignment requirement - or most obviously missed one. After all the fluff they should be good, not lawful.
Howland Reed 02-25-08, 05:43 PM	believe it or not, this class actually has one of the better combinations of full BAB and cleric spellcasting. I believe it. Only problem is...that's not an especially desirable selling point. The difference between a 3/4 BAB and a 1/1 BAB is not big enough to make it highly desirable in and of itself (as opposed to the difference between 1/2 and 1/1 seen in many arcane PrCs). Divine Power (a staple for divine casters) only makes this more pronounced. Add to this the fact that isn't not a full casting progression (you lose 3 out of 10 levels), and it's just not worth the tradeoff. Swap 3 BAB for 3 caster levels? Huwhah? For an arcane PrC, saying "here's something that let's you keep casting while doubling your BAB" is eye-catching (not to mention necessary, for a gish). For a divine PrC, saying "here's a couple points of extra BAB while you keep casting", it's a lot less tasty (not to mention often superfluous, if you can cast Divine Power). Most people would rather just persist Divine Power...or if you don't like DMM, just cast divine power when you need it.
The_Shaman 02-25-08, 06:12 PM	Oh, I agree. The Hospitaller isn't worth taking to the end, but I think it's not as bad as the OP made it seem. I'd consider a few levels in some builds.
StevenO 02-25-08, 07:58 PM	The Complete Divine is possible the worst "Complete" book although much of that has to do with its editing. Now to look at the classes mentioned: Consecrated Harrier: Skills are probably cut/paste from the older version (I'd have to look it up.) when Rangers only gained 4 skills per level so these changes are too far off. A minor problem with adding the spellcasting to Ranger is that the Ranger's CL is only 1/2 class level. Divine Crusader: 9th level spells in only 10 levels. Casting not as good as Ur-Priest but it doesn't need full BAB. Geomancer: Double casting, are you crazy? Arcane/Divine already has Mystic Theurge for that and the Arcane/Druidic that this already promotes has the Arcane Heirophant. Holy Liberator: The CG answer to the Blackguard. If you use the alternate Paladin classes then drop this and the Blackguard otherwise it is fine. Hospitaler: Who'd want to take this? I've seen a large number of request that amount to how can I get a full BAB divine caster without losing so many casting levels. Well this is the best you can do. I may never take the last two levels but Cleric12/Hospitaler8 has 18th level casting and a +17 BAB which I don't think you could match without spells; admittedly I'd probably be happier with only Hospitaler 4 for a +16 BAB and 19th level casting. Pious Templar is fine. Its casting is actually better than a Paladins although I'm note entirely against allowing them to stack. The problem with stacking is do you word it a +1 Divine spellcasting or do you restrict it further to something like +1 Paladine spellcasting? The problem with using the first is that a cleric can easily qualify for the class at which point a +1 Divine Casting each level which works for a Paladin is suddenly overpowered when applied to a cleric which a cleric would do well with 1/2 casting which wouldn't help a Paladin much. Because you don't need Smite to enter it should be left alone. RSoP: Yes, this class has problems with being a little overpowered at the cost of a slightly smaller HD. Shining Blade: No question the sword abilities should be improved. Turning the Shock and Holy Blade abilities from limited use to always on would help some. Temple Raider. It's no Arcane Trickster but it also doesn't have the spell requirements. I'd agree 6 skill points wouldn't be bad and again this may be a cut/paste problem from the earlier edition. Ur-Priest: It has problems but not the things you mention. This class is used to "break" dual casting progressions so often it isn't even funny. It effectively grants the spellcasting of a Cleric 17 in only 10 levels along with providing a number of other benefits. Now you did miss a few other classes that have some problems. The Warpriest would LOVE to have the Hospitaler's spell progression. That would actually make the class quite playable. Sacred Exorcist: Notice that this class isn't hard to get into with an Arcane Caster who gains a lot by entering it? Divine Oracle: Another "divine" class that can be entered by pure Arcane Caster for gain. It may not provide the hp/attack that the Exorcist grants but its abilities are arguably as good or better. Church Inquisitor: One of those few PrCs that can be entered as early as 4th level. The Cleric gives up empowering its Turning and good FORT (after already getting both abilities) in exchange for a number of special abilities. As you can see many of the classes have problems but yet aside from the Ur-Priest, RSoP, and occasionally Exorcist or Oracle I rarely hear of any of them.
Cartigan 02-25-08, 08:27 PM	Pious Templar is fine. Its casting is actually better than a Paladins although I'm note entirely against allowing them to stack. The problem with stacking is do you word it a +1 Divine spellcasting or do you restrict it further to something like +1 Paladine spellcasting? The problem with using the first is that a cleric can easily qualify for the class at which point a +1 Divine Casting each level which works for a Paladin is suddenly overpowered when applied to a cleric which a cleric would do well with 1/2 casting which wouldn't help a Paladin much. Because you don't need Smite to enter it should be left alone. Not only that, but noncasters can enter the class. +1 caster level is real useful then.
Sinfire Titan 02-25-08, 08:29 PM	The Complete Divine is possible the worst "Complete" book although much of that has to do with its editing. Have you read CP lately?
Cartigan 02-25-08, 08:35 PM	Or Complete Warrior.
StevenO 02-25-08, 11:43 PM	CP = ???, Complete Psionic. I've never looked at it because I don't do psionics. As a whole I found the Complete Warrior much more useful than the Complete Divine.
Sinfire Titan 02-25-08, 11:58 PM	CP = ???, Complete Psionic. I've never looked at it because I don't do psionics. As a whole I found the Complete Warrior much more useful than the Complete Divine. Complete Psionics is considered by many to be the single worst book WotC has printed, as all that is in it is horribly written for Rules purposes, it is smaller than all of the other Completes on an individual basis, and it is useless errata/nerfage that you have to pay for. CP is Complete Crap when it is having a good day, and worse when it isn't (and it doesn't have many good days).
Mr_Teapot 02-26-08, 12:11 AM	Divine Crusader: 9th level spells in only 10 levels. Casting not as good as Ur-Priest but it doesn't need full BAB. Divine Crusaders who take a level in Contemplative or any other domain granting PrCs can get a fair bit more versatility, though it's still pretty limited. But if you pick the right domain, Divine Crusaders can be awfully good.
archerpwr 02-26-08, 12:14 AM	Complete Psionics is considered by many to be the single worst book WotC has printed, as all that is in it is horribly written for Rules purposes, it is smaller than all of the other Completes on an individual basis, and it is useless errata/nerfage that you have to pay for. CP is Complete Crap when it is having a good day, and worse when it isn't (and it doesn't have many good days). Link power isn't too bad. One feat in an entire book isn't too bad of a deal if you save money by just copying the text of the feat.
Sinfire Titan 02-26-08, 01:14 AM	Link power isn't too bad. One feat in an entire book isn't too bad of a deal if you save money by just copying the text of the feat. :D The Ardent and Lurk aren't bad either, and AI is an ok PrC for Psions to take. Most of the book is nerfage/junk though.
The_Shaman 02-26-08, 12:09 PM	I agree on the ardent and the lurk, but your statement about AI makes me wonder. It's not a "ok" PrC for psions - it's damn good for them, arguably too good. It was imo designed to help the wilder, and with it they are almost tolerable.
Sinfire Titan 02-26-08, 12:52 PM	I agree on the ardent and the lurk, but your statement about AI makes me wonder. It's not a "ok" PrC for psions - it's damn good for them, arguably too good. It was imo designed to help the wilder, and with it they are almost tolerable. And they screwed up on it! They put the required ranks too damn high!