Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Weapons Lord 01-01-06, 09:28 PM	Has anyone out there played any of the classes from Magic of Incarnum and if so, what did you like/dislike about them?
Incarum_lover 01-01-06, 11:26 PM	I am playing a Lawful Incarnate. He is pretty good, even though he had a low Bab, the soulmelds i had made up for that, i thnk it was the incarnate avatar.also when a melee enemy came up if they hit me they took damage due to my mantle of flames. he is one of my favorite characters. :cool:
The 8th Samurai 01-02-06, 12:10 AM	I play a duskling Incarnate 5/Totemist 1 in one campaign and a duskling Totemist 3 in another campaign. Incarnate 5/Totemist 1 A powerhouse of attack, damage, and defense. I have the Lightning Gauntlets bound to my hand chakras (also had expanded soulmeld capacity feat attached to this soulmeld). I also was also using Avatar Weapon. One time each round I hit for 1d8+5d6+Str damage. Also, I had essentia invested in 2 different soulmelds and had a max AC of 31 if I wanted. Also, I wouldnt die until -19 HP and could continue fighting until I reach that level. I think I also got 15 temporary HP. Been a couple of weeks since I played (holidays delaying playing until next week) so I could be wrong on some of the specifics. Basically the DM had to pump up the challenge rating by at least +4 because of my character. Totemist 3 This is a fun character to play. I bound the Frost Helm and kept stunning foes with it. Today we were attacked by 2 worgs, 3 gnomes, and some unknown leader. I stunned a gnome and the leader, they were basically out of the combat for 3 rounds. The next round I stunned the both worgs for 4 rounds. One worg finally broke the stun with a saving throw (target is allowed another saving throw if attacked). But saved the party from major damage. I also had +4 natural AC from Wormtail Belt and was using Rageclaws so I could fight even if reduced below 0 HP. Next, I plan to use Blinkshirt to be able to teleport. I love incarnum characters because of the flavor and the variety of abililities. I can change each day what I want my character to do. I would be bored with playing a fighter. A druid would be close to the variety because you can wild shape and turn into something each day. So guess what, I also am playing a druid in another campaign. Try any of the incarnum classes (I can't say anything about Soulborn because I haven't played one) and have enjoy. Incarnum has changed D&D for me. D&D is so much more fun, imho. Happy gaming
PsyBomb 01-02-06, 01:47 PM	I have a Duskling Incarnate 5/ Totemist 2/ Necrocarnate 4 in an Evil campaign. This guy is getting shockingly powerful, pronto. Especially once I figured out that telling Tarnish (my Necrocarnum Young Brass Dragon Zombie) to go hunting just before dawn each morning, to feed my Essentia Pool.
Munchmausen 01-03-06, 10:20 AM	I have a Glacier Dwarf Totemist 4 for a Frostburn campaign. Keep Urskan Greaves or Frost Helm on for the environmental defense. At later levels I may do a Heart of Fire+Girallon Arms/Sphinx claws/Kruthik claws for attacks and such, but for now Lammasu Mantle has worked quite nicely. Bonus to AC and saves vs. evil creatures certainly doesn't hurt, and a 4D4 cone of fire usable every round at 3rd level doesn't hurt, either. Then you throw in something like Wormtail Belt or Totem Avatar for defense, Blink Shirt or Pegasus Cloak for mobility, or Kruthik Claws and Worg Pelt for stealth, depending on you expect to need more of that day, and you're good to go.
Gworraent 01-03-06, 04:10 PM	duskling totemist, and now a LG azurin soulborn!
Weapons Lord 01-03-06, 11:24 PM	The classes are all interesting, but the incarnate seems a bit underpowered at higher levels and has very little magic that could benefit a party. The D6 hit dice and poor BAB don't exactly make me want to take one into combat any time soon.
Malruhn 01-03-06, 11:47 PM	I have a human Artificer/Incarnate (Art-7/Inc-2), and it is working out pretty well. I'll keep you posted.
PsyBomb 01-04-06, 12:21 AM	What I find funny is that the Totemist ends up better in melee than the Soulborn, by a WIDE margin.
Todd 01-04-06, 07:40 AM	What I find funny is that the Totemist ends up better in melee than the Soulborn, by a WIDE margin. I think that WotC designers sometimes underestimate what a good natural attack setup can do. The Totemist soulmelds are by far the best in the book too which doesn't hurt at all. However don't forget about things like antimagic and null magic zones. The Soulborn is still going to be a functional character in those situations where the Totemist will find himself fairly nutered & the Incarante is just plain hosed. ;)
ShotgunSaint 01-17-06, 01:13 AM	I was playing a human fighter 2/ soulbourn 7 for a while. Brian Damage. Really lived up to his name. Power Attack, Cobalt Charge, Cobalt Power, Cobalt Critical, Improved Critical, and Thunderstep Boots just to be assanine about it. Soulmelds aren't a soulborn's primary power, it's the fighter BAB and bonus incarnum feats.
Roatso 01-17-06, 02:39 AM	Wow, I hadn't planned on getting this book, but after reading some of these replies I think I'll give this a second look.
rampant 01-17-06, 03:16 AM	Youw wouldn't belive the sick twisted things totemists can do, How des five natural attacks sound to you, Sphinx claws and chimera mask with totem avatar (shoulders) for a damage boost its just wrong
Todd 01-17-06, 10:47 AM	Wow, I hadn't planned on getting this book, but after reading some of these replies I think I'll give this a second look. It's a very good book overall IMO. What you have to watch out for are the tables on pages 54 to 58 ... they don't represent what soulmelds can do well at all. These tables show the base unbound effect with no essentia invested. You actually need to read the descriptions in order to figure out what happens if you bind them or add essentia. I think that these few pages have turned more folks off of the book than anything else. The see the stuff in the tables and think "That's it????" Once you read the soulmeld descriptions then it becomes apparent that there is a lot more going on.
Roatso 01-17-06, 03:42 PM	Thanks for the extra insight, I figure I'll get this after my next payday (well if I can find it... though I guess there's always ebay) :)
Roatso 01-22-06, 03:34 AM	Finally got this, and all I can say is wow :) I wish I had looked closer at it when I first checked it out. So much potential here :)
Archangel62 01-22-06, 03:42 AM	My players got introduced to Incarnum in my game, they came to the conclusion that they REALLY do not want to fight it again until they got training. The wizard actually decided to study incarnum to become a Lawful Incarnate with the hope of maybe being able to deal with this new foe that they learned about. The rest of the party has mixed feelings about using it but they do agree that it can be bastardly when done properly. One other thing I should add is that the Incarnum Blade prestige class has to be one of the most powerful ones that I've seen in a long time considering how quickly it can be picked up.
wolfie-kun 01-22-06, 09:40 AM	Randomly, just for the heck of it, I made two incarnates: one lawful, and one evil. Both of sixth level. Sad thing is, about that--the evil one had much better damage potential, and was behind the lawful incarnate by only 1 to hit and 4 to AC. This is not including Incarnum radiance, which closes the gap a bit, but that's kinda ridiculous IMO. I gave both of them feats to max out the essentia capacity in their melds, and I think the Lawful incarnate ended up with a 23 AC, a +13 to hit (+15 usin Incarnum Radiance, IIRC), and 1d8+13 with an incarnate longsword He also had a Fellmist Robe with max essentia. The evil one ended up with a 19 AC, a +12 to hit, and a +19 to damage (+23 with Incarnum Radiance). I haven't made a chaotic or a good Incarnate yet, unfortuneately. Though in thinking about the Good Incarnate, his AC wouldn't be too much higher than the lawful one's, and he'd have a lower damage potential than either of the other two.
Hariman 01-22-06, 10:36 AM	I can offer no educated opinion on this subject as I have done nothing beyond page through Magic of Incarnum in my local comic shop. I can't bring myself to buy it for two reasons. 1 My finances are limited. I can only afford so many supplemental books and Magic of Incarnum isn't very high on the list. Especially considering the rumored Complete Psion and the yet to arrive on the shelves Dragon Compendium. 2 I don't want to learn another magic system to play in D&D. I have at least a dozen character concepts I want to play already. These include: Multiple Sorcerer builds: Several Rogue Builds: And at least one Dragon, using rules from Dragon Magazine. Summarized: I have neither the time nor money nor desire to learn a new magic system. It's not an insult to the book that I'm not interested; It's my own "Stupid" fault for not wanting to buy another book that I might not get much use out of. My advice is to set aside at least an hour or two to look through the Magic of Incarnum book in the store wo you can get very familiar with the rules before you buy it. I've got Arcana Unearthed just sitting on my shelf because it's not used in either campaign I'm playing in right now. This is just my reason for not buying Magic of Incarnum. It does sound like a good book but there are many other books that I want to get that I can't. So Magic of Incarnum won't be one of my purchases.
wolfie-kun 01-22-06, 10:42 AM	I can offer no educated opinion on this subject as I have done nothing beyond page through Magic of Incarnum in my local comic shop. I can't bring myself to buy it for two reasons. 1 My finances are limited. I can only afford so many supplemental books and Magic of Incarnum isn't very high on the list. Especially considering the rumored Complete Psion and the yet to arrive on the shelves Dragon Compendium. 2 I don't want to learn another magic system to play in D&D. I have at least a dozen character concepts I want to play already. These include: Multiple Sorcerer builds: Several Rogue Builds: And at least one Dragon, using rules from Dragon Magazine. Summarized: I have neither the time nor money nor desire to learn a new magic system. It's not an insult to the book that I'm not interested; It's my own "Stupid" fault for not wanting to buy another book that I might not get much use out of. My advice is to set aside at least an hour or two to look through the Magic of Incarnum book in the store wo you can get very familiar with the rules before you buy it. I've got Arcana Unearthed just sitting on my shelf because it's not used in either campaign I'm playing in right now. This is just my reason for not buying Magic of Incarnum. It does sound like a good book but there are many other books that I want to get that I can't. So Magic of Incarnum won't be one of my purchases. You just needed a good spot to gripe about all this, didn't you?
Red_Decker 01-22-06, 11:55 AM	I plan on playing a Totemist2/psywar8/Slayer10 and doing a true claw master that hunts Aberrations perhaps in an Eberron campaign. http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt
MysteryGilgamesh 01-22-06, 12:32 PM	Of the three classes, the Incarnate is easily the worst, which is fairly sad, as it's the "poster boy" class of the Incarnum system. It definatly needs a medium BAB and 4 skill points/level with a few more class skills to be able to solidly compete with other melee focused characters. The Totemist is the powerhouse of the three classes introduced, being quite a wrecking ball if you know how to build one. And the Soulborn is the middle of the road, fairly well balanced in all respects.
TalonofTiamat 01-22-06, 12:52 PM	I've made a couple incarnum characters, but have yet to use them. I've got alot of character ideas right now. I love incarnum. It is the most unique thing I've seen in D&D in some time. It saddens me that alot of people don't like it. It saddens me even more that it seems like WoTC isn't going to make anymore material on it. :weep: The only problem I've found is running low on essentia. Anyone know how to fix this?
Hariman 01-22-06, 01:21 PM	You just needed a good spot to gripe about all this, didn't you? Yes. Yes I did. That's one of the biggest problems I have with D&D right now. Not enough time/money. And I don't think it's a good Idea to start playing in or DMing a third campaign. Two campaigns is enough for me.
Todd 01-22-06, 02:30 PM	Of the three classes, the Incarnate is easily the worst, which is fairly sad, as it's the "poster boy" class of the Incarnum system. It definatly needs a medium BAB and 4 skill points/level with a few more class skills to be able to solidly compete with other melee focused characters. I think that folks were expecting a Cleric or Wizard from the Incarnate. The developer's chat didn't help much in this respect either by billing the Incarnate as the "full user" class. In any event I don't see the Incarnate as a "melee" class. However it isn't a Wizard or Cleric either. The closest core class in scope would probably be the Bard. Incarnates are reasonable party buffers. From Incarnum Radiance to various soulmelds like Lucky Dice the Incarnate can do lots of things to make those around them a bit better. They can outskill rogues at low levels and aren't bad in this respect at higher levels either. For instance a 1st level incarnate can have +8 to a UMD roll before adding stats. At 4th level and afterwards they can even trapfind like a rogue too. While they don't make good primary healers an Incarnate can become a very reasonable secondary healer. Using both Lifebond Vestments and Therapeutic Mantle a 6th level Incarnate can get the equivalent of 21 points of healing out of a single charge from a Wand of Cure Light Wounds. Said wand can be used either via UMD (+16 without a single rank in the skill & better if they have actually bought it cross class) ... or via dip if they took a level in something like bard, ranger, cleric, or druid. Via Dissolving Spittle they have a nice starting ranged attack. A 1st level Azurin with the Expanded Soulmeld Capacity feat can have a 3d6 ranged touch attack that is useable every round all day long. It's not the greatest weapon in the world at the higher levels but even then it will be OK. Law and Evil Incarnates have the ability to be viable melee combatants at most levels. A Leaping Charge Law Incarnate or a tripping Evil Incarnate would be fearsome IMO. Chaos Incarnate can make a great archer. Good Incarnates are probably the most left out in this respect. They can have super high AC ... but can't actually do as much in combat as any of the others. Incarnates can be well served by dipping into another class. A Rogue 1 / Incarnate 19 for instance is going to be able to be super skillful. A Ranger 2 / Chaos Incarnate could be a fantastic archer. All this while keeping their super incarnum flexibility. Conversely Incarnate is also probably the best of the MoI classes to "dip" into. A Rogue 19 / Incarnate 1 is going to be able to do a lot more than a pure Rogue 20 can without gear. I'm not going to argue that the Incarnate is perfect ... but I think that folks underestimate it or tend to try to take the wrong party roles with it. I started a thread a while back on things I would tweak with the class. However the more I play around with it the more possibilities I see.
Hariman 01-23-06, 03:19 AM	Via Dissolving Spittle they have a nice starting ranged attack. A 1st level Azurin with the Expanded Soulmeld Capacity feat can have a 3d6 ranged touch attack that is useable every round all day long. It's not the greatest weapon in the world at the higher levels but even then it will be OK. And now I think Magic of Incarnum might be a little broken. A warlock can't manage a 3d6 every round until level 5, maybe level 3 or 4 if he spends all of his gold on a Chasuble of Fell Power. (And maybe borrows gold from another party member.) Any other class will run out of Spells/Power points/Ammunition after a while. It's now a book I'm sure I won't buy. I think power creep stopped creeping with Magic of Incarnum.
Roatso 01-23-06, 03:27 AM	The range is only 30'.. that'll keep an incarnate in the danger zone. 3d6 damage at first level isn't really that big of a deal when you die in the first round before or after using it.
Hariman 01-23-06, 03:44 AM	Even if you have to get that close, you just have to Ready Actions and wait for the enemy to close with you and then back off. It is better than I thought it was, but it's still a bit overpowered in my book. EDIT: This should be my last post for this thread. I've already made my choice about buying the book so I really can't contribute anything more that pointless bickering now. It's not high on my list of books to buy. There are numerous other books I want that mesh better with the books I have. I just hope this thread actually answers the original poster's question.
Roatso 01-23-06, 03:57 AM	Well, keep in mind that's only with the races from the Incarnum book or characters who blow feats to gain the extra essentia (who would be losing the benefit of the feat most likely) If you disallow the races with innate essentia you'd lower the power to those who spend a feat to gain it.. that would balance it out even further... and only humans could pull that off (since it would take them 2 feats to make this happen) at first level.. other characters could do it at second. Also, essentia is tight at low levels, so if someone wants to dump it all into a single short range attack... he won't be doing much of anything else.
ff6shadow 01-23-06, 04:01 AM	I like Magic of Incarnum in general. It's not as bad as it can seem. They system as a whole however plays similar to a Fighter, strong at lower levels, then weakens over time compared to others, but never dropping as far as the fighter does powerwise. Also great for dipping, since Essentia capacit increases by character level.
Todd 01-23-06, 11:23 AM	And now I think Magic of Incarnum might be a little broken. A warlock can't manage a 3d6 every round until level 5, maybe level 3 or 4 if he spends all of his gold on a Chasuble of Fell Power. (And maybe borrows gold from another party member.) Any other class will run out of Spells/Power points/Ammunition after a while. It's now a book I'm sure I won't buy. I think power creep stopped creeping with Magic of Incarnum. If anything MoI is *underpowered* at mid to high levels. However it can be really potent in level 1-6 games if you tweak the build right. This is nothing new. There are plenty of core classes, feat combos, and spells that are really good in that range too. Even more if you open up the Complete books and whatnot. As for the 3d6 @ 1st level Dissolving Spittle, like others have said, it's short range at 30', it's acid vs untyped for the warlock, and it can only be done by one very specific build. The Incarnate will not be able to do things like Eldritch Spear, Chain, etc. EVER. He can’t ever change the damage type or have nifty secondary effects like fear or nausia. The Incarnate never gets a break vs. SR. He has fewer boosts possible via feats & items to this attack than the Warlock. Finally if he shapes dissolving spittle that means that the Incarnate likely sacrificed somewhere else since he is limited in how many soulmelds he can shape and where he can put them. For instance having the spit attack means that he is likely unable to shape the soulmeld that grants him bonuses to cha skills like bluff. The Warlock will have more range & flexibility from the get go, similar damage in the 5th level range, and better damage at 7+, especially if you include items. Also worth noting that that an Incarnate is going to have a tougher time fitting in PBS and Precise Shot the way a blasting Warlock can. Taking that huge penalty to hit *really* hurts at the lower levels ... and don’t forget that the Incarnate is poor BAB to the Warlock’s medium too. Bottom line is that I would take a low level Warlock as a ranged attacker over the Incarnate at nearly every level. The Incarnate is good at some stuff but a blaster they are not. Just as a point of comparison I’ve built a 6th level Ranger 2 / Incarnate 4 who uses a bow as his main weapon. With his +1 bow he can do 2d8+6 damage if he hits with both arrows for an average of 15 points of damage & he can add +6 to that damage total with a different soulmeld should he shape it. With Dissolving Spittle he will average 14. Yes the Spittle is ranged touch but it’s limited to 30’ vs the bows 110’ range increment ... and at low levels touch AC usually isn’t that much worse than regular. If I were playing a Warlock you can bet that I would have a fell chasuble and be averaging 14 damage too ... and the character would either be flying & sniping most of the time or have an extra +2d6 damage from flame. A ranger 6 on the other hand would be getting 3 arrows off each round & have some nice archer spells like Arrowmind or somesuch for an average damage of 3d8+9 or 22.5 HP. And, after all this, if Dissolving Spittle still bugs you, then nothing is stopping you from nerfing it some way for your game. ;)
MysteryGilgamesh 01-23-06, 12:29 PM	In any event I don't see the Incarnate as a "melee" class. Incarnates are reasonable party buffers. I'm not going to argue that the Incarnate is perfect ... but I think that folks underestimate it or tend to try to take the wrong party roles with it. I started a thread a while back on things I would tweak with the class. However the more I play around with it the more possibilities I see. 1: The class is described as a melee class right in the entry, as well as supportive (in the same way that a Rogue is supportive). Even seeing the list of things an Incarnate is proficient with, it's pretty obvious the class is supposed to be in a mid level combatent (Rogue, Monk, various other med. BAB classes) stylized role. So while you may not see it as a melee class, it's supposed to be one. Unfortunatly, with such a horrible BAB, it can't be one very effectively. 2: False. None of their soulmelds really increase the party's effectiveness. They're all self-buffs, more or less. 3: I've played an Incarnate fairly extensively...They lack quite a bit without a med. BAB. 4+Int skill points/level would also help them along, but that might be overkill. Reguardless, however, they do need this BAB to function properly.
Todd 01-23-06, 01:04 PM	1: The class is described as a melee class right in the entry, as well as supportive (in the same way that a Rogue is supportive). Even seeing the list of things an Incarnate is proficient with, it's pretty obvious the class is supposed to be in a mid level combatent (Rogue, Monk, various other med. BAB classes) stylized role. So while you may not see it as a melee class, it's supposed to be one. Unfortunatly, with such a horrible BAB, it can't be one very effectively. The class fluff text also suggests things like Good Incarnates taking combat expertise as a feat. Sure it’s flavorful but I would whack a player in the head if they actually suggested doing that in a real build. An Incarnate *can* be built to be a reasonable melee type ... but they aren’t that by default. Just because some fluff text says one thing in no way actually means that the mechanics support it. 2: False. None of their soulmelds really increase the party's effectiveness. They're all self-buffs, more or less. I wasn’t talking about soulmelds really. Share Incarnum Radiance is where the party buff action is at. Granting an unnamed bonus to AC, to hit, Damage, or movement to all nearby allies can be pretty slick. I don’t see the Incarnate as being what a Bard can be here ... or even what a Wizard could be ... but they can do some interesting stuff here. The soulmeld bonuses are mostly OK at best though Lucky Dice & Bluesteel Bracers provide solid, if unspectacular, party effects. 3: I've played an Incarnate fairly extensively...They lack quite a bit without a med. BAB. 4+Int skill points/level would also help them along, but that might be overkill. Reguardless, however, they do need this BAB to function properly. 4+ skills wouldn’t be bad ... but it’s in no way required. I’ll be posting a “Incarnate by the numbers” sometime soon. IMO they don’t need a lot of skill points to be an effective skillful character though it wouldn’t hurt by any stretch of the imagination. The BAB is a problem if you are looking to melee but it can be overcome several ways. 1. A Skillful weapon – This weapon will act as Medium BAB and grant proficiency. That’s a better to-hit and an extra attack at some levels. 2. Dual Wield – Again this increases the base number of attacks. If the off-hand weapon is skillful it gets even better. Picture a Law Incarnate with 5 attacks before haste and nearly +20 in bonuses to hit with the primary hand and nearly that with his off hand.... 3. Improved Trip + Combat Reflexes – This is super effective for the Evil Incarnate. He gets to target touch AC and then gets an attack against a prone foe which should be slightly easier to hit. 4. Defensive Throw + Combat Reflexes – this is probably only realistic in a Monk / Good Incarnate build but the character will have a high AC and be very difficult to hit. Each foe that misses him will get whacked. 5. UMD – The Incarnate can utilize UMD as well as a Rogue can. A scroll or wand of Divine Might for instance can solve that BAB problem in at least some fights. 6. Charge / Leap Attack – Again a Law Incarnate tactic ... but since BAB is low he can focus on getting a single meaningful attack. 7. Rapidshot – A Chaos Incarnate gets meaniful bonuses to hit and damage with ranged weapons. He will probably not be as good as a focused Archer build but the can be darn good. Getting bonus damage on ranged weapons is hard. Incarnate is one of the few classes that can do it. Zen Archery is also a possibility that would enable the Incarnate to focus on Wis and not Dex. Make the bow Skillful or add the UMD tactic above and you are talking something that I don’t see as bad at all. 8. Just use soulmelds – Lighting Gauntlets and Dissolving Spittle are not as great as spells and probably less effective than the weapon tactics above but they are useable as touch attacks in combat. I’m sure that there are other ways too, but these are just a few of the ideas that have been percolating in my head recently.