Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Leibel 05-26-05, 12:32 PM	How would a world w/little or no magic be... interesting vis-a-vis classes PC's could pick. Specifically w/these changes. Bard* - Same Barbarian - Same Cleric - Gone Druid - Gone Fighter - Same Monk - Gone Paladin - Gone Ranger - No spells otherwise all else same Rogue - Same Sorceror - Gone Wizard* - Only 13 left(all elven) and they don't teach just anyone *Arcane magic being manipulating nature still exists but is difficult to learn; with wizards all the knowledge is in an obscure language only elves can learn due to their lifespan. Healing will be difficult(although no healing spells would cut down on crazy powergaming stunts) Your left w/ Bard, Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger and Rogue Just looking for info on how to run this for a possible campaign. And people know where the 13 wizards live. Obviously opponents will be toned down and appropriate modifications made.
CzarGarrett 05-26-05, 01:21 PM	So you're cutting out Complete Warrior and Complete Adventurer? I could see the Hexblade being cut for a no/low-magic (although I think allowing a few of the abilities and no spells could work), along with the Samurai and Swashbuckler, and then Scout and the other class I can't remember for the life of me right now, but cut out the Spelltheif. Although I'd question a few of your cuts. The Monk for instance- its not magical, its supposed to be something like a force of will. I could see maybe a few of the abilities cut, but overall, its not much of a magical class. I'm assuming there's a rationale for the lack of magic. How the characters interact with the world could be influenced by that. And the question of technology comes up. There might not be any wizards around to cast Lightning bolt, but what about genius inventors who develop a way to build a charge and fire it at a target?
Nobby 05-26-05, 02:03 PM	UMM in CW there are varients for the pally and ranger with no magic you could use the sam and the sawashbuckler you could add the healer class it is on the forms some where :lightbulb and umm i cant think of manie more right now yes i kno i cant spell Nobby
Schmendrick 05-26-05, 02:07 PM	Although I'd question a few of your cuts. The Monk for instance- its not magical, its supposed to be something like a force of will. I could see maybe a few of the abilities cut, but overall, its not much of a magical class. I think you're misinterpreting the intention of the post (which IMO could have been worded a little more clearly); if I read it right, the point isn't so much "How would a low-magic campaign look?" as "I'm making a low-magic campaign and these are my changes so far; does anybody have interesting comments to make?" Your exclusion of monks is interesting, though, and I notice you've kept bards. Care to explain your rationale between those two classes? It might help us get a better feel for your world. The biggest problem with a low-magic campaign is that monsters' CRs are assigned with the assumption that an X level character will not only have Y-range saves but also have access to certain magic items. If magic weapons are rare, then even DR 5/magic becomes rather powerful, and alignment DR (like DR 10/good) is almost as good as DR /- against typical (non-BoED/BoVD/etc.) PCs (because not only do you need a rare magic weapon, but you need one that happens to be enchanted with the appropriate alignment). The more rare Stone to Flesh spell access is, the worse a medusa becomes. Keep that in mind when adjusting CRs.
simon_tage 05-26-05, 06:43 PM	I am bumping this as to see what other changes you might care to make and the other comments as well. I had been toying with the idea for a low magic world myself. Change the stat required to cast a spell from (stat-10) to (stat -15) would make powerful spells really difficult to learn except by high level and determined mages and priests. I had trouble thinking of things to offset the loss of spells for casting classes though.
Tony Vargas 05-26-05, 07:25 PM	Your left w/ Bard, Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger (no spells) and Rogue Just looking for info on how to run this for a possible campaign. I think a spell-less ranger is just fine. Is the bard still a caster? Still have healing on the bard list? Healing is really, really critical for D&D combat, where victory comes with whittling away the other guy's hps, and your own get whittled away a lot, too. One good variation I've seen is called 'Reserves.' You get a pool of reserve hps, equal to or greater than your hps. You can transfer reserves to hps fairly quickly between combats. This lets you face multiple combats per day, each at more-or-less full potential (as is usually the case in D&D). It follows the idea of hps representing luck/skill/endurance more than actual wounds. Good if you want the game to stay fairly 'heroic,' rather than turning very grim. You might also want to add classes. The Aristocrat and Expert NPC classes could work just fine as PC classes in such a world, as could the Scout and Swashbuckler.
Jaid 05-26-05, 11:09 PM	heck, at this point the adept doesn't look like too bad of a class either... they would be the second strongest caster in the game! well, actually, come to think of it, they would be the only non-bard caster in the game (yeah, i know, the wizards, but that's different... in this campaign, that's kinda like saying "oh, but that's available to the average pit fiend"... in fact, those wizards are even more rare than the average pit fiend..."
Leibel 05-27-05, 10:58 AM	The initial post could have been better. The rationale for a low magic world is simple - it's a scaleable world ranging from high fantasy where every army has epic spellcasters to sci-fi in space w/psionics and this low magic setting is a transitory middle age/renaissance/early era of exploration period. Technology was not developed as a result of magic; people just relied on spellcasters to work their magic and do things technology would normally do(Teleportation was a substitute for trains, cars, steamboats; Animal messanger for telegraphs/smoke signals; alarm for well security systems). As for not including scout, samuari, etc - I don't have complete warrior/adventurer(although I'm thinking of getting one of them). Throwing in Aristocrat/Expert/Adept from the DMG, reinstating Monk(yes dropping them was not well considered) and doing a magic less Pally would add 5 classes. A healer class would be helpful. And then PrC's that would survive(modified Horizon Walker, Dwarven Defender) Regarding the Bard - the spell list is limited(I don't have a PHB nearby so I can't list what gets cut). And the 13 elven wizards are not the adventurous types who'd risk their lives to help just anyone.
Jaid 05-27-05, 02:11 PM	yeah, i kinda figured that. that's what makes the adept look so much more appealing. they are the only divine caster around, though unfortunately for them their spell selection is pretty limited for a PC caster list. still, they got no room to complain... look at the other class's options =P
Fuzzy_Logic 05-27-05, 04:12 PM	Getting complete warrior and adventuerer sounds like a wise investment, giving some more options for a campaign which will probably feature many warriros and rogue types. personally, i think complete adventurer is the best book of the complete series (and that's not my prejudice- i rarely play skilled characters). in any event, adept, aristocrat and the like could be converted to playable classes. i would simply add some feats and skill poitns, and possibly spotnaeous cures and slightly better spell progression for adepts.
Manyfist 05-27-05, 04:54 PM	In a low Magic world, I would see psionics be common, because Psionics is not magic yet force of will. It would be a + if you added psionics, because it's so balanced and fun. XPH, is a must have in case you want to do that. If no psionics is allowed, how are you're guys going last very long? Unless it's Steampunk like, and you can have First Aid Kits..etc. If not I don't see your players living through one session.
Jaid 05-27-05, 05:19 PM	simple. you put the group against slightly lower CRs, keep in mind that the group can't reverse some conditions as easily as in a "standard" D&D game, and don't expect them to handle 4 encounters per day, because healing will take a lot longer. this has already been noted; you just have to DM it differently. yes, if you put them against the same encounters you would a party with full magic, they will die. that's why you raise monster's CR.
Leibel 05-27-05, 05:35 PM	Most opponents would be animals, some abberations, classed opponents. Very few undead, no demons/devils. Lycanthropes would be rare. Being a scaleable world it loses it's high fantasy feeling over time. And at most the PC's would get 2 combat encounters a day and since some would be against classed humanoid opponents diplomacy/intimidate/bluff could be used.
Mirikon 05-27-05, 06:07 PM	So basically, you're doing a King Arthur type campaign, where everyone's basically normal, but there are about a dozen casters in the world? I'd read books like A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court or l'Morte d'Artur to get some general ideas on how to do some fantastic things in the kind of setting you're describing. Honestly, though, without Clerics or healers of some kind, your players are gonna get mauled unless you change the standard rules for how many HP you recover each day. I'd change it to the 'videogame' style of you sleep, and your HP return to full. Of course, in this setting you're taking out a lot of the monsters and adversaries that make D&D what it is. Like dragons, werewolves, demons and undead. I seriously doubt I'd play in that campaign, but good luck with it.
Koga:The ninja trick 05-27-05, 06:15 PM	Actually this is what The Koga did for a low-magick campaighn. (Note: With Dr@gon as well.) Psionics now use magick instead of psionics. Psion: Chooses his type of psychic at first level for skills and automaticaly learns all spells of the school he is able to cast when able too but cannot learn spells outside thier chosen school. Erudite: Works like the wizard. Learns most progressively from the wizard/sorcerer list. Psychic-Warrior: Like before, but learns from the druid/cleric spell list. Psychic rogue: Learns from the bard list and can learn special abilities based off the sorcerer bloodline feat tree such as green heart. Spell theif: Get's the sorcerer's draconic ray at first level but otherwise is the same. Wilder: Gets also the half-elemental perks from level 1-4 as Dr@gon. (Must choose element.) Soulknife: Sldo grts shadowknife specials at level 1, 6, and 12 as Dr@gon, his soulblade becomes supernatural at level 15 and extradionary at level 20. Paladins, rangers, urban rangers, and wild defenders lose thier spells and gain a bonus feat at level 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20. And no multi-classing/prestige classes. This gives physichal classes a fair shot. What'dya think? :)
Koga:The ninja trick 05-27-05, 06:26 PM	Ignore double post.
Jaid 05-27-05, 07:59 PM	So basically, you're doing a King Arthur type campaign, where everyone's basically normal, but there are about a dozen casters in the world? I'd read books like A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court or l'Morte d'Artur to get some general ideas on how to do some fantastic things in the kind of setting you're describing. Honestly, though, without Clerics or healers of some kind, your players are gonna get mauled unless you change the standard rules for how many HP you recover each day. I'd change it to the 'videogame' style of you sleep, and your HP return to full. Of course, in this setting you're taking out a lot of the monsters and adversaries that make D&D what it is. Like dragons, werewolves, demons and undead. I seriously doubt I'd play in that campaign, but good luck with it. then lucky for you you aren't in his campaign. personally, i think it might be kinda interesting to try it out. anyways, the healing rate should be at least ok; i dunno if it's enough for 2 encounters per day, but i suppose that depends on the encounters and on the party. in any case, the bard and adept both have access to healing, so it's not like there isn't any healing, there just isn't as much.
Agent 34 05-27-05, 09:49 PM	I suggest taking a look at the Dragonlance Campaign Setting which presents and talks about the changes in a word where there is no magic. Also introducing a few other classes to fill in the gap would probably be best. If you have the game down to only five classes while it can be fun it also may end up boring your players with the lack of options. Adding classes like the Noble (DCS), Marshal (Miniature's Handbook) and the Samurai (Oriental Adventures) you give your players more options in creating charecters and replacing the lost mechanics with new ones they can try there hand at. Also while I don't see any problem with keeping the Bard since they can still Sing and do Bardic Knowledge they should lose there spellcasting. If you strip it from Rangers why not Bards? Is a Bard's role in a party not usualy a support charecter who sings, does a little defensive magic and later on Bardic Knowledges all the items? So he loses the magic, not much of a difference to the class. The healing rate isn't a problem. I ran a campaign before using this and I still allowed Cure potions. However they wern't of magical nature instead they required Craft (Herbology) and instead of Clerics we had the local Wise Women or Elder putting all these herbs together to cure the sick and sell to weary travelers. Also it makes the players stop thinking they are invincible and relly more on stealth. Plus it never hurts to read up on the Withdraw action. Also concerning opposition I dissagree with my peers on a few points. Undead and Outsiders would still exist as opponents. They should be rather rare however and told eerily in myths. It also helps to give these "creatures of legend" a Fear Aura. If a peasent turned warrior spent his youth hearing about creatures with red skin and bat wings that chew up little boys obviously when he sees a creature that looks like that he might get frightened.
Manyfist 05-27-05, 10:06 PM	[QUOTE]Actually this is what The Koga did for a low-magick campaighn. (Note: With Dr@gon as well.) Oh No! Psionics now use magick instead of psionics. Wouldn't that be Called Magic? Why would you do that? If you wanted a low Magic campain, why you just contradict your self? Psion: Chooses his type of psychic at first level for skills and automaticaly learns all spells of the school he is able to cast when able too but cannot learn spells outside thier chosen school. They be kind of Weak... not to mention stupid, who would really need 50+ Clairsentience powers? Or how about Just be able to move around, yet can't do any thing with the Nomad? Erudite: Works like the wizard. Learns most progressively from the wizard/sorcerer list. So its a Wizard? You just gave it another name. Psychic-Warrior: Like before, but learns from the druid/cleric spell list. So they are Clerics.. again same thing. Psychic rogue: Learns from the bard list and can learn special abilities based off the sorcerer bloodline feat tree such as green heart. So you turned a Rouge into a Sorcerer? Spell theif: Get's the sorcerer's draconic ray at first level but otherwise is the same. When were Spell Theives Psionic? Wilder: Gets also the half-elemental perks from level 1-4 as Dr@gon. (Must choose element.) You turn them into half-Elemental, Dragon Sorcerers.... bad Soulknife: Sldo grts shadowknife specials at level 1, 6, and 12 as Dr@gon, his soulblade becomes supernatural at level 15 and extradionary at level 20. Ok... Can you tell us about Shadowknife? And no multi-classing/prestige classes. This gives physichal classes a fair shot. What'dya think? :) What! It gives most the 'Psionic' Classes jack... how you expect some one who wanted to play as a Seer, to do any thing? Oh... I see that, yet I can't do any thing about it. Did I mention it would get stale... Allow Multi-Classing if you know what's good for you. Honestly stop typing in third Person, and your 'fixes' actually mean Normal-> Absolutly Worthless, you need to think of other stuff.
Schmendrick 05-29-05, 02:06 AM	I was thinking about running a game with a "low magic" feel to it while minimizing the work involved with reworking everything to be less reliant on magic, and what I came up with was basically this: nobody casts spells. Nobody. Instead, every caster class gets some item creation feats as part of their leveling (kinda like the wizard's bonus feats), and magic items become cheaper. All magic has to be implemented through an item. Item costs would be lower (or, at least, the XP costs), but some items would carry unusual restrictions (for instance, wands might only work for the caster who made them... or, for a twist, maybe would become "unbound" on the death of the creator and work for anybody [with the spell on their class list, of course]). Some spells would be restricted in odd ways (for instance, perhaps cure spells can only work as potions, not wands or staves). A few spells might work as-is, like detect magic (though it might be cool if the only Detect Magic involved carefully crafting a set of eyedrops the day before). This keeps magic in the world for most practical (balance) purposes but takes away the "immediate" and personal feel of magic since all magic has to go "through" an item. Which might be a good "first step" toward technology in your "scaling world".
allenchan 05-29-05, 02:21 AM	there are nonmagic variants of rangers and paladins. just saying "no spells" severely weakens the classes. Paladin's lay on hands will provide at least the bare minimum healing necessary for a party. Getting rid of monks seems pointless. And congrats, you'll have to completely restructure the entire monster manual since its based on the assumption of magic users in your party.
Steve_from_accounting 05-29-05, 04:12 AM	I actualy ran a NO arcane magic campane. It was set in an earlier era than the Greyhawk seting so there was no organized religon yet (this means no Pal or Clrc) Sorc all died and Wiz all left(I'll explain momentarily) thus the only spellcasting class were the Druids. The back story was pritty good . Basicly many years ago Olidarma threw a big party to witch he (or is it she? I can never rember) invited all the other gods and demigods of the upper plaines. none of the evil gods cared that they werent invited, save one Deamon. He was so ofended that he tryed to crash the party casting spells left and right launching fire balls in to the punchbowl and what not. This infurieated Oledarma to no end. as punishment Oledarma striped the deamon of all his powers save one, Antimagic field. he then told the deamon that if he wanted his powers back he had to cast antimagic field once on each grain of sand surounding his castle. the deamon did as he was told but he changed the spells effects so they would stack. then he proceded to cast the augmented antimagic field spell on every grain of sand althewy to bedrock and all the way to both coasts (since olidarma did not specifi a radius) By the time he was done and Olidarma returned the anty magic field was so strong that it sickened anything that was inherintly magical (Sorc, dragons, other magical beasts) there where even rumors of particlarly consintrated areas of the field that dispelled not only mana but ligh, matter, life and even time itself! needless to say that Olidarma and the other dieaties had to flee this plane of exsistence (as they where purly magical beings) the resulting antymagical radiation tanted all the magical beings eventualy killing them and those who had honed ther magic througu study rather than through the magical properties of there blood(Wiz) where not killed as they wheren't naturaly magical but where instead rendered weak and defensless, so they fleed to another continent. basicly the continent is roughly the size and shape of australia. and much like australia nearly nintey percent of it's residents live on the coast because the ant-life field dosen't cover the outer part of the continent. as a result of this at the center where even light is dispeled a powerfull blackness is visable from any where on the continent that resembles a thick solid black cloud. that is the back story of the continent these are the mecanics. No Sorc. the latent radiation exposure has snufed out even the potential for magic in any creature who could take the class. Wiz suposidly still exsist but left the continent centuries ago (thus alowing for a high powered magic story line later on if the DM so deisers but sill alowing the DM to say later "the rumors where false, there is no such thing as a Wizard" if he changes his mind) there is no organize religion so no Pal or Clrc how ever you may alow for a player to found a religon( and thus be the first Clrc or Pal) after being visited by the dieaty of choice(again this is to alow for DM control if they don't want to alow Pal or Clrc just don't have the dieaty pay a visit. no mission= no mssionary). The anty magic field is infact not caused by a scorned deamon (thats just some story that parents tell children when the ask about the dark cloud on the horizon) but by a metior that struck the center of the continent some time ago. It's made of some strange alien metal that gives of intense radiation that warps space around it. Properties of meteor: touch= fortitude safe DC 100 or instant death fifty meter radius= over laping breach of material plane with plane of chaos causes space to twist and deform dealing 50,D12 damage per round fortitude save DC 75. there is also a 25% chance that the player will get stuck in a time stoped pocket if this happnes they will be stuck there untill the pocket disapates or moves(DM's discretion) fifty-one meter to twenty-five mile radius= aura as deeper darkness no method f seing through it will work. entropic field fortitude save DC 65 on a failed throw thcharicter loses one full hit dice per round and is aged rapidly reaching venerable in a number of rounds dependant on his race: an elf takes ten minutes minutes, a cobolt four rounds so it works out to about one year per second. if the character does not leave the field the will die of old age and the nif the body is not moved it will decay to bones in three rounds. for some reason the fiels dosnot afect skelital structers so this wast land is littered with bones. 25 miles radius to 3000 miles radius= weaker virson of field aging is only acelerated by a factor of 10 so an elf could last a few years and a cobalt could last a few months inside this field it is alwas night time and a strong wind is always blowing sand. This hinders the field of vission beyond 25 feet. 3000 miles to cost line= the sky is purpleish-pink and the sand is a glassy white tinted pinkish by the light reflected from the sky and the sun is a light forest green. this is all an optical ilusion caused by the radiation in the atmosfear. further more there is a constant greater anti-magic field covering the entier continent no magic items scrolls or potions work so it is hard to tell if somthing is magical or not. some one may find the Sword Of Cas and sell it never know they had it. The only place on the continent where arcane magic works is a warded region inhabited and protected by the majority of druids around (and one epic wizard: optional). it is located on the southern cost of the continent. (as far from civilization as posible) if any one from the north makes ther way there from the north the will be stoped by the forest (also warded) that suround the clearing and is densly filed with all maner of magical beasts. The radiation has a unique effect on magical creatures. there are roming pockets of concintrated antiy magic in the outer circle and one big one that covers the entier two iner-areas. if a magical beast enters the inner radiuses or is hit by one of thease roming pockets it is torn apart by te contradicting internal magic and external anty magics. in short it explodes. there is no save to survive only a reflex to avoid wich is base 15 plus 1 for each meter the pocket is across. som of thease pockets are said to be up to three miles across although there is no reliable way to measure them. the tend to stray near the center of the continent and are rarely if ever reported near settled regons(thats why they settled there). There is an interesting effect that this field can cause (and again this is purly an optional rule) when the players eather leave the continent enter the warded druid zone or find a way to lifet the anty-everything radiation field all player make a percentile check to see if the latent Sorc abilities in there heratige awaken 100 gain 3lvl sorc & role again 99-98 = gain 2 lvls Sorc free 97-96= gain 1 lvl Sorc free 95-6= gain no lvls you may take sorc at your next lvl 5-0= the magic in you blood is silent nither you or you decendent nomater how far removed will ever be able to be a sorc, a favored sole, a dragon deciple, or any other class or prestiege class that insinuates latent natural magic in the blood. only a wish spell can revers this effect. you can also apply this to there items 100= major artifact 99-98= plus ten equivelent magical bonus 97-96= plus five equivelent magical bonus 95-6= no magic bonus but it can be enchanted 5-0= hte item is tanted with anty magic radiation it will never be magical only a wish spell can revers this effect. this can make for interesting sid plots . you could have some kid erupt with twenty five lvls of Sorc in the middle of a town when the party finalty lifts the anty magis radiation from the continent. not knowing what he has just becom he start casting spells wildly and uncontroled scared he runs in to the wilderness and the party has to go find him. the could go equiped with a vial of dragon dust, witch i will discribe in a momnent, to nutralize him safley. now as I mentioned there is a way to get to the rock and destroy it. and it is the only way. the entropomancer prestiegee class. through ther shier force of will the can lift the field away from there bodies making them apear as if they where sheathed in some sort of clear grease or oil if the can make it to the rock (first radius DC15, second radius DC20, third radius DC25, touch DC30. this is a will save to nigate the effects compleatly) the can use there ability to remove entropy to nutralize the entropic radiation(DC35 will save) the newly nulified metal is ADIMENT! prior to this moment there is no adiment on the planet, it just dosent exsist so obvously acording to the ad&d univers'es history this is supose to hapen so encourage one of your players to take entropomancer. the radiation though nulified left a residue si if the players find a pilke of the whiteish sand called dragon dust it can be poured in to a vile and worn around the neck giving the wearer spell resistence compleate magic imunity in a ten metter radius, but this of course means that that character can't use any magic items (inside the radius they just wont be magical). all the sand in the desert rurns a redish orange and the sky turns bright royal blue with a warm golden sun. sorry for being so long winded but as you can see I had a lot of ideas for this world it alows for many devine prestiege classes or none if you don't want any an dalot of DM control in general. we had alot of funn with it and if you give it a try I'm confident youl enjoy it.