Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Yosho 08-08-06, 05:11 AM	I was simply wondering what you guys thought about some of the less talked about classes on this board. If you would give what you think on one or more of the listed classes. -binder -shadowcaster -truenamer -wu jen -shunja -spirit shaman -spell thief -incarium classes -any others you feel like commenting on thanks
Xanril 08-08-06, 05:20 AM	Shadowcaster are cool. Yay for evil mages !!! :)
babysamurai 08-08-06, 05:43 AM	The Spirit Shaman is the sleeper class.
Milo HoBo 08-08-06, 07:24 AM	I really enjoy both the binder and the incarnum classes. Incarnum for is extreme flexability and binder for its awsome flavor. I view both as slightly weak, but beautiful systems. They are no casters.
babysamurai 08-08-06, 07:29 AM	I really enjoy both the binder and the incarnum classes. Incarnum for is extreme flexability and binder for its awsome flavor. I view both as slightly weak, but beautiful systems. They are no casters. I agree. The Binder and the Incarnate are very subtle classes, dripping with flavour.
zae 08-08-06, 07:47 AM	I also agree on their awesomeness. It's just a shame that nearly every DM (online games mean you can't lend books to the DM) says "What? I've never heard of this stuff? Sorry, can't you play something I know about?" Which isn't a problem, there are still many options, it's just sad that those classes will never seem to actually see gameplay. The fact that they'll never be given new material, much like the Warlock, doesn't help either.
frasmage 08-08-06, 07:49 AM	The issue here is that these are all of these are in non-core books. What that means is people are not allowed to list stuff on the boards. So people can't really say too much about them Also not everyone has those books s they do not know what they are. Especially incarnum and ToM classes - which are whole different concepts Finally, all those listed which are from complete [...] books are somewhat weak. Some are too campaign specific to see much play (spellthief, spirit shaman) and others are just not that interresting or stand alone from other classes (shugenja, wu jen) - heck the wu jen is so close to the wizard, why play the one that gives you less choice?
Todd 08-08-06, 09:39 AM	Binder Solid class. It’s never going to be as good as a cleric or wizard mechanically but has lots of flavor and some nice crunch. You can make some very flexible melee builds using Binder. I really like some of the supernatural abilities that can be gained via Pact Magic. I also like that some of the lower level binds stay useful even at 20th level while the higher level ones grant better abilities. Good design there. Quite honestly I like the Magic of Incarnum classes for the flexibility that Binder seems to be going for but freely admit that the Binder is easier to work into an existing game. Binders are also better multiclass options in many cases (Anima Mage >> Soul Caster). The thing I like least about the Binder is how bumpy the progression feels. There is a huge jump in power going from 7th level to 8th level for instance as you gain a 2nd attack via BAB and the ability to bind a 2nd vestige at the same level. The RP aspects of the class could also lead to major trouble in some games. If the DM really gets into the “forbidden magic” angle and has hunters all over the place or if the party has a paladin or cleric who worships one of the gods who dislikes binders party conflict seems inevitable. Finally some of the vestiges seem to have pretty arbitrary combinations of abilties. Bottom line is that I would play a pure class binder in the right game and I am playing a Binder / Warmage / Anima Mage in an online game now. Shadowcaster I want to like the class but don’t really. The Shadowcaster has some pretty good flavor and some very interesting mysteries. I’ve had a few ideas for characters floating around in my head that this class just seems built for. However IMHO it’s WAY too hard to build one. You have to plan ahead VERY carefully at least 5 levels in advance and it’s way too easy to mess up even if you do that. Many lower level mysteries are next to useless at high levels with their poor save DCs. Ari Marmell posted some changes to the class over in ENworld that help both of these. See http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2957649&postcount=76 for more info. Ari posts both here and at ENworld as Mouseferatu. Ari’s proposed changes help quite a bit, but the class is still pretty weak for a pure spellcaster. I’m not too keen on the limited selection of mysteries either. Finally it really bugs me that they get Shadow Evocation but not Shadow Conjuration like powers or analogs of other arcane Shadow spells. Bottom line is that Shadowcaster seems like a niche class to me. I might play one if I had a concept that nothing else fit ... but in all honestly I would likely try to build a shadow themed Sorcerer or a Warlock before I would look at Shadowcaster. Truenamer Great concept but poor execution. Someone else said that this class is balanced on the pin of a needle and it’s true. If your gourp follow the DMG wealth by level options exactly & you limit splatbooks & you don’t allow custom items & you tailor the CR of your foes exactly then the Truenamer will work beautifully. However if you deviate at all the class quickly becomes either impossible to play or overpowered. Bottom line is that I would never play one nor allow one in game as is. Wu Jen The thing that hurts the Wu Jen the most is that the class has a static spell list. Whereas the Wizard, Sorcerer, Bard, and whatnot gain spells with every new book the Wu Jen just sits there looking eternally hopeful like a puppy with big eyes ... only to have it’s optimism dashed each time. The class actually works in some games and builds, especially those that focus on a single spell. I’ve seen a very nice build using Wu Jen and Master of the Unseen Hand to create an awesome Telekinesis focused character. Bottom line is that Wizard or even Sorcerer is probably better in most games. Spirit Shaman This is a HIGHLY underrated class. Yes they have very limited spells known each day. Yes they lack wildshape. However what they do have is incredible. They can spontaneously cast metamagic enhanced spells with no increase in casting time. Their spirit companion can take over spell concentration. They can change spells every day like a Wizard yet keep the spontaneous casting of a Sorcerer, with the utterly fantastic Druid spell list. They can bring back companions from the dead without level loss or huge gold expenditure. In the hands of a clever player the Spirit Shaman can shine. Their spirit powers will really shine in some games and be next to useless in others. Some of them are really dependant on the types of foes your DM throws at you. The downside is that feats must be chosen carefully and that you have to know the druid list pretty well to be effective. Well timed multiclassing can help them a lot, for instance a dip into contemplative to get a domain. Bottom line is that these guys rock. They have good flavor & good mechanics without being overpowered. Spellthief I don’t like them. I don’t like the basic concept of sneak attacking to steal spells nor do I really care for the execution of the idea. Incarnate At first glance it looks like these guys suck big time. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Incarnate is deceptively effective especially as a skill monkey. Lawful and Evil Incarnates can also make fantastic melee characters. Good and Chaotic have a tougher time of it but still have their areas of expertise. When it comes to flexibility few things can match an Incarnate. He could be a trapfinding skill monkey one day, a melee meat shield another, a ranged touch attack guy the next, and an anti-undead fool the fourth. Or he can mix and match as desired. Take a look at Incarnate by the Numbers in my sig. I really like this class! It may take a bit of work by the DM to fully integrate Incarnum into his game but it’s an exercise well worth it! The downside to the class is that the Incarnate starts strong but has a tougher time keeping up at the higher levels. It’s not impossible but you have to be much more careful in your selection of equipment, feats, and melds shaped at the higher levels if you want to avoid being ineffective. I also don’t like the fact that Evil Incarnates are so much better than Good ones. Bottom line is that, of the classes you mention, this is my favorite. I really like the Incarnate! Soulborn I would rather have a Soulborn than a Paladin in my party most days. The Soulborn occupies ground in-between what a Paladin, Ranger, and Hexblade do. He is a full BAB warrior who uses a touch of magic to give him an advantage. His soulmelds could be used to increase melee effectiveness or to emulate things like Tracking. Of all the Incarnum classes the Soulborn is least effected by things like Anti-Magic field. If his soulmelds get suppressed his full BAB and martial weapons will ensure that he still has plenty that he can do. The downside is that his soulmeld progression is really really slow and that you will likely have to spend a few feats so that you can shape an Incarnate or Totemist meld or three. Bottom line is that the Soulborn is a solid class that’s well worth playing. Totemist These are the guys that get all the fun soulmelds! The can claw, leap, sneak, use breath weapons, teleport at will, and more. Of all the Incarnum classes the Totemist is the easiest to use and is likely the “strongest” at low levels. The Totemist soulmelds are easily the most colorful and have the most obvious combat effectiveness. They can get multiple natural attacks at low levels easily and have a wide arry of damaging options. They are so strong in the level 1-6 range that it might actually be a problem in some builds so watch party balance carefully. The flipside is that in the mid levels that other classes will improve faster than the Totemist so the playing field becomes more level. The biggest downside to the class is that their soulmelds grant competence bonuses unlike most of the Incarnate and Soulborn melds ... this means that Totemist Soulmelds don’t stack with the vast majority of skill boosting items. For instance Worg Pelt’s Hide bonus doesn’t stack with a Cloak of Elvenkind. Bottom line is that the Totemist is a fun and exciting class.
HaikenEdge 08-08-06, 10:07 AM	Binder Although I love the flavor of this class, I've got some problems with some of the mechanics. The requirement to bind on a daily basically turns a binder into an expert with significantly fewer skills and nominally more feats on any day where binding is impossible (for example, getting tied up). Plus, I just don't like the vestiges. Hence, I created the Junctioner class, which is similar, but different. Shadowcaster While flavorful, the shadowcaster requires optimization and planning. A little too much planning, in my opinion; although I genuinely want to like the class, I've never played one, simply because it seems like too much work. Truenamer As mentioned before, why are the Truename DCs so high? No clue, actually, but I've never played a truenamer, so I can't say. Flavorful, but seems difficult... I guess I'm just lazy. Wu Jen Sadly, there's nothing that this class can do that a Wizard or Sorcerer can't. Due to a lack of notable Wu Jen only spells (Body Outside Body comes to mind), Extra Spell is a viable way by which a Wizard or Sorcerer can gain the same spells, thus eliminating the class. While the class is location specific, I can't help but wonder if the spell secrets are really worth it. Shugenja I assume you're talking about the Shugenja... I like the class, not for any of its merits, but because it's the only divine casting class I know of that doesn't rely on some sort of deity or nature worship. My gripe, though, is that neither of the class abilities seem useful, nor does the spell list seem that outstanding... Spirit Shaman Possibly the greatest base class, ever. That's a bit of an overstatement, but I've no ends of love for the Spirit Shaman. The only reason I don't play it is because I can't get my head around the flavor. Spellthief Bad flavor. I don't understand how stabbing somebody in the kidneys would net you a spell; maybe if you concentrated and won an opposed a Will check with a spellcaster, that'd work... Stabbing somebody for spells? No, I don't see it.
Yosho 08-08-06, 04:41 PM	Great! any thing else to add :D :cheer: :w00t:
benstundze 08-08-06, 05:09 PM	bard and the barbarian lol scout and paladin
Gworraent 08-08-06, 05:10 PM	Incarnum is the sex. Necrocarnates, Totemists, Totem Ragers and Ironsoul Forgemasters make me have an Incarnum-gasm.
Milo HoBo 08-09-06, 10:12 AM	I've noticed alot of 24 hour magicish classes. Warlock, Incarnum, Binder, Dragon Shaman, etc. I tend to see Incarnum as have the most flexability. I would be so bold as to compare Incarnum to Psionics, where as Pact Magic is vancian casting. Think about it, Binders have a pre-packaged set of abilities from vestiges from the beginning of the day, but Incarnum classes have abilities that can be powered up or dimmed down in order of importance at that moment. It sounds alittle like augmentation from psionics.
babysamurai 08-09-06, 10:51 AM	Necrocarnates, Totemists, Totem Ragers and Ironsoul Forgemasters make me have an Incarnum-gasm. It's true - they make my genitals grow...or is that glow?
lifeisbutadream 08-09-06, 02:35 PM	hmm..ive heard of incarnum alot and ive seen alota dm's who know about them were'd you get that from Yosho? :confused:
Shedeo 08-09-06, 05:11 PM	I love the Spirit Shaman, and I've done several home-variants on it that make it a bit weaker (in some ways) but then again,... I dont have the standard clerics, and the shamans replace the druids, so its all good. :D I also seem to be the only one on the boards that doesn't like Incarnum. I love the concept and the idea, but I hate the way it was executed. Nothing seems more lame to me than the way they did it. Some of the stuff is cool, like some of the Prestige Classes. The art (mostly) rocks. I don't know what it is exactly about the mechanics that rub me the way, but they do.
Milo HoBo 08-09-06, 07:14 PM	...I also seem to be the only one on the boards that doesn't like Incarnum. I love the concept and the idea, but I hate the way it was executed. Nothing seems more lame to me than the way they did it. Some of the stuff is cool, like some of the Prestige Classes. The art (mostly) rocks. I don't know what it is exactly about the mechanics that rub me the way, but they do.I don't like the flavor too much, but I do like the mechanics. I've found that it is way easier to change the flavor of something than to change the mechanics of something. Take the Truenamer for example. It's very hard to find a more beautiful flavor concept, but its mechanics are... debateable. Psionics has beautiful mechanics, but some people try to do a Sci-Fi flavor. I use names with a dream magic flavor. It's quite easy. For more info, ask Tempest Stormwind. I started out very turned off by the Incarnate because I was trying to make it something it is not. A healer. The best way to use this class is as a skill junkie. I first off, don't think that quasi magic items floating on your body works for me, so I change it to be magical tatoos. Second, I stratch the whole alignment bend, and concider each alignment a path. The only thing that I find evil is the Necrocarnate (or how ever it is pronounced).
scienceman47 08-09-06, 07:14 PM	Binders are the coolest thing ever. As far as incarnum goes, I dont like it. Or rather, I dont like the incarnate and soulborn. Totemists fit into DnD like a glove.
Yosho 08-10-06, 06:39 PM	hmm..ive heard of incarnum alot and ive seen alota dm's who know about them were'd you get that from Yosho? :confused: I don't know what your talking about? :confused: I think your asking what book incanum is from its magic of incarnum.
The_Normal_Anomaly 08-10-06, 07:12 PM	Perhaps this is just me, but I have always had an interst in the Hexblade. I never see much buzz about them. They have a great flavor, and even got a spot in PHBII, but still no one comments on them. They look like a fairly good class all around. They aren't the greatest at much, but a full bab helps. The whole idea of having bad luck around you to the point of it harming others is almost as good as the warlock
Bringer of autumn 08-10-06, 07:59 PM	Personally, I think bards aren't looked into as much as they should be.
tiercel 08-10-06, 08:24 PM	Spirit Shaman is a very nice class -- I played one for a while. Probably the lack of attention receives is that, while it has great flavor and some interesting (and in some cases really cool) mechanics, in most games it is strictly less powerful than a druid. The spellcasting mechanic is interesting. I like being able to spam like a sorcerer and yet switch out my "spells known." I like not having delayed spell levels (3rd level spells at 5th class level, thank you very much). I don't like the split spellcasting stats so much (you can ignore them to some extent if you are going to focus on being the Summon and Buff King). And honestly, I would actually prefer applying metamagic like a sorcerer does -- sorcerers are better at metamagic than wizards. Folks make hay out of the longer casting time, but it is a full-round action, not a casting time of one full round. (That is, it's basically a standard+move action, not sitting there casting until your next turn, like a summon spell.) I'd rather apply metamagic when I need rather than tie up one of my very few spells-known slots for the day. --Plus, it would give more choices on how to use higher-level spell slots. Spirit shamans choose spells differently that druids do. The obvious thing is that spirit shamans get a lot fewer distinct spells per day, but can cast them more often -- so you definitely don't want to take something you'll cast only once a day or not at all. You also tend to shy away from some of the excellent "damage over time" spells (e.g. produce flame, call lightning) that require you to take an active hand in keeping the spell running -- you have a lot of spells, so you want to get through them, not milk one spell for an entire battle. (This changes for a number of spells when you get high enough level to have your Spirit Guide maintain Concentration on a spell for you, though.) The spirit powers are interesting and a mixed bag -- the ones that don't specifically target spirit creatures (e.g. being able to go ethereal, recover friends from death, make pact) are very nice at higher levels. The ones that do target spirit creatures are mighty if you see spirit creatures ... and pretty much useless if you don't. (There aren't any feats that let you convert Chastise Spirits into other effects, unlike the feats that exist for Turn Undead, Wildshape, and even Bardic Music.) Spirit Shaman is a very nice class, but unless the Druid has received significant nerfing in your game, most folks looking to maximize their effectiveness are going to head to Druid instead.