Classes of Tomb of magic and Incarnum [Archive] - Wizards Community

Classes of Tomb of magic and Incarnum [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
guesswhat12321
09-15-07, 01:41 AM Is it just me or did these classes for the most part (some PrCs looked kinda nice) just did not look compleated. I read them both in the past couple of hours and I can see that there kinda nice in some ways but are overshadowed by most other classes. Did anyone else get this feeling or am I just missing somthing big here?
Totem_Chakra
09-15-07, 10:10 AM They are not "imcomplete." I'll break it down for you.
Tome of Magic is a great book, but out of it all, shadow magic is the weakest and most unbalanced class to me to date. However, truenamer is very fine if you work on him just right and binder has NO problems what so ever. Plus, binders bring forth great flavor inside a D&D campaign. The reason I love the binder the most is because it is really based on an evocation magic called "goetia." There are 72 demons in Goetia, but in D&D, they mixed it up a bit, which I still enjoy.

For magic of Incarnum, nothing much wrong within there. I mean, sure, some of the soulmelds are a bit weak, but they grow even more powerful within the campaign itself. So, don't read a book and say "Does this all seem unbalanced?" I play something before saying what I think about it. Trying not to be rude. However, I think Totemist is best out of the three incarnum classes and the Binder is best within the three Tome of Magic classes.
navar100
09-15-07, 10:35 AM They are suitable for "low magic" campaigns where as you don't take away a magic using character's magic, but you do take away all the flashy stuff some DMs can't stand.

Truenamers suffer from getting progressively worse at what they do as the level s progress unless you have very specific magic items to boost Speak Truename skill. Not doubling the HD for determining DC solves the problem.
LoneFlame
09-15-07, 10:49 AM The stuff that can be done with Shadow Magic is pretty nice, but I find that their limit on the use of those abilities is kinda hard to adjust to and quite possibly debilitating.
InkBlot
09-15-07, 12:00 PM I'm playing a binder in a current campaign. My character isn't broken at all. He's freaking fun to play though. Some of the other players at the table hadn't ever heard of the binder before, and hadn't been exposed to any of the inspirational source material for the binder. It was a blast creeping them out. Even the DM occasionally mutters "you're weird" as an aside.

A binder is less powerful, but more "interesting," than a warlock. DMs who don't like surprises shouldn't allow the binder class until they get a chance to read through all the vestiges. One day you might be tracking down foes and healing your allies. The next you might be sneaking around invisible and sending off telepathic spy birds to scout for you. The next you might be able to smell magic, dispell with a touch, and use wands like a wizard. There's a limit to the variety of effects you can pull off, of course, but it's widely varied and can change day-to-day (or sooner, with a feat).

Binders can't pull off the primary-caster roll. From 8th level onward (when they get to bind two vestiges at a time) they can try, but it's tricky at best. One of the best things about binders is that they don't need anyone particular ability score. You can make a Str based binder and be just as effective as a Cha based binder. The important thing to remember is that you can only bind so many vestiges at once (only one until 8th level), and that you can't count on always having a particular vestige bound.

Most vestiges have some melee combat ability, and most pact augments help in melee, so binders are surprisingly capable there.

Many vestiges let you afflict enemies with status affects (with a save and a duration that's hardly ever more than a round, but you can use them at-will or once-every-five-rounds).

Binders can blast, but if a vestige gives a blasting ability then that's usually just about the only thing it gives.

Binders can sneak, easily, as there are several vestiges that help there, but they don't get a lot of skills (unless you play an Int based binder).

Binders can heal, with a certain vestige, at 5th level at the earliest (if you take a certain feat) -- cure light wounds once every five rounds is delicious.

Binders can rock the social scene, with all the important social skills on their list, and several vestiges that help in that regard (although if you make a bad pact it could be awkward).

The influences and signs are fun to roleplay. You're essentially trying out a new personality every day. It's an acting excercise, and puts the spice of variety into the game. A bad pact -- when you fail binding check -- may seem like a penalty, but it isn't. It's pure roleplaying. A lot of people will make binders with purposefully low Charisma scores and binding checks, just so that they can get a chance to act out the influence. The checks are low enough that you won't usually fail them if you're trying not to. My character, at level 7, already has a high enough binding check that he can make a good pact with some 1st level vestiges even on a natural 1. And I didn't even take the feat to boost the check.

As for being based on ars goetia; it is, undoubtedly, but it's not based just on that. Ars goetia itself is nothing special and discreet. It's hard to find a spiritual, religious, or mystic tradition that doesn't involve calling upon spirits and making pacts with them. Many also specifically mention the spirit entering your body. Most flavors of Christianity follow this pattern too. You could emulate dozens of different traditions and religions merely by changing the details of the pact ritual, creating a handful of new vestiges, and changing some words around.

Change "vestige" to "loa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loa)," "seal" to "veve (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veve)," and you're well on your way to playing a voodoo priest. In fact, I'd eat my hat if the designers of pact magic didn't look at veve (http://africa.si.edu/exhibits/inscribing/images/eduimages/7.-veve-chalk-drawingLG.jpg) when designing the vestige seals.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
guesswhat12321 09-15-07, 01:41 AM	Is it just me or did these classes for the most part (some PrCs looked kinda nice) just did not look compleated. I read them both in the past couple of hours and I can see that there kinda nice in some ways but are overshadowed by most other classes. Did anyone else get this feeling or am I just missing somthing big here?
Totem_Chakra 09-15-07, 10:10 AM	They are not "imcomplete." I'll break it down for you. Tome of Magic is a great book, but out of it all, shadow magic is the weakest and most unbalanced class to me to date. However, truenamer is very fine if you work on him just right and binder has NO problems what so ever. Plus, binders bring forth great flavor inside a D&D campaign. The reason I love the binder the most is because it is really based on an evocation magic called "goetia." There are 72 demons in Goetia, but in D&D, they mixed it up a bit, which I still enjoy. For magic of Incarnum, nothing much wrong within there. I mean, sure, some of the soulmelds are a bit weak, but they grow even more powerful within the campaign itself. So, don't read a book and say "Does this all seem unbalanced?" I play something before saying what I think about it. Trying not to be rude. However, I think Totemist is best out of the three incarnum classes and the Binder is best within the three Tome of Magic classes.
navar100 09-15-07, 10:35 AM	They are suitable for "low magic" campaigns where as you don't take away a magic using character's magic, but you do take away all the flashy stuff some DMs can't stand. Truenamers suffer from getting progressively worse at what they do as the level s progress unless you have very specific magic items to boost Speak Truename skill. Not doubling the HD for determining DC solves the problem.
LoneFlame 09-15-07, 10:49 AM	The stuff that can be done with Shadow Magic is pretty nice, but I find that their limit on the use of those abilities is kinda hard to adjust to and quite possibly debilitating.
InkBlot 09-15-07, 12:00 PM	I'm playing a binder in a current campaign. My character isn't broken at all. He's freaking fun to play though. Some of the other players at the table hadn't ever heard of the binder before, and hadn't been exposed to any of the inspirational source material for the binder. It was a blast creeping them out. Even the DM occasionally mutters "you're weird" as an aside. A binder is less powerful, but more "interesting," than a warlock. DMs who don't like surprises shouldn't allow the binder class until they get a chance to read through all the vestiges. One day you might be tracking down foes and healing your allies. The next you might be sneaking around invisible and sending off telepathic spy birds to scout for you. The next you might be able to smell magic, dispell with a touch, and use wands like a wizard. There's a limit to the variety of effects you can pull off, of course, but it's widely varied and can change day-to-day (or sooner, with a feat). Binders can't pull off the primary-caster roll. From 8th level onward (when they get to bind two vestiges at a time) they can try, but it's tricky at best. One of the best things about binders is that they don't need anyone particular ability score. You can make a Str based binder and be just as effective as a Cha based binder. The important thing to remember is that you can only bind so many vestiges at once (only one until 8th level), and that you can't count on always having a particular vestige bound. Most vestiges have some melee combat ability, and most pact augments help in melee, so binders are surprisingly capable there. Many vestiges let you afflict enemies with status affects (with a save and a duration that's hardly ever more than a round, but you can use them at-will or once-every-five-rounds). Binders can blast, but if a vestige gives a blasting ability then that's usually just about the only thing it gives. Binders can sneak, easily, as there are several vestiges that help there, but they don't get a lot of skills (unless you play an Int based binder). Binders can heal, with a certain vestige, at 5th level at the earliest (if you take a certain feat) -- cure light wounds once every five rounds is delicious. Binders can rock the social scene, with all the important social skills on their list, and several vestiges that help in that regard (although if you make a bad pact it could be awkward). The influences and signs are fun to roleplay. You're essentially trying out a new personality every day. It's an acting excercise, and puts the spice of variety into the game. A bad pact -- when you fail binding check -- may seem like a penalty, but it isn't. It's pure roleplaying. A lot of people will make binders with purposefully low Charisma scores and binding checks, just so that they can get a chance to act out the influence. The checks are low enough that you won't usually fail them if you're trying not to. My character, at level 7, already has a high enough binding check that he can make a good pact with some 1st level vestiges even on a natural 1. And I didn't even take the feat to boost the check. As for being based on ars goetia; it is, undoubtedly, but it's not based just on that. Ars goetia itself is nothing special and discreet. It's hard to find a spiritual, religious, or mystic tradition that doesn't involve calling upon spirits and making pacts with them. Many also specifically mention the spirit entering your body. Most flavors of Christianity follow this pattern too. You could emulate dozens of different traditions and religions merely by changing the details of the pact ritual, creating a handful of new vestiges, and changing some words around. Change "vestige" to "loa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loa)," "seal" to "veve (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veve)," and you're well on your way to playing a voodoo priest. In fact, I'd eat my hat if the designers of pact magic didn't look at veve (http://africa.si.edu/exhibits/inscribing/images/eduimages/7.-veve-chalk-drawingLG.jpg) when designing the vestige seals.