Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Frugal 04-15-06, 08:32 PM	I'm working on designing a new campaign and I'd like to have magic more specialised. What I want to achieve is a world where different regions, races and/or "schools" of magic use magic very differently. One way I thought about addressing this was with including the magic systems from Tome of Magic and possibly Magic of Incarnum and XPH as well. For instance, maybe drow are typically practitioners of pact magic. But I'd like to take this a bit further and possibly break up arcane casting in general as well. The main way to do this would be to ban the wizard and possibly the sorcerer class and instead offer up other base classes that have a more restricted range of spells but that are more focused on magic of a certain type. Off the top of my head, I can think of the Dread Necromancer for necromantic magic. The Warlock, Warmage and Wu Jen all have more specialised arcane casting (or arcane-like for the Warlock) which could work really well. Are there any other classes that would work well with this type of setup? Now on the other side of things, my big concern is that divine casters would become much more powerful because of this. For clerics, I'm wondering if there's any type of system to restrict their spell list based on their deity? I mean beyond the domain spell but something where their spell list more closely reflects their god's portfolio. And any ideas on what to do about druids?
Mitchell 04-16-06, 12:57 AM	Clerics get spells from their dieties. You should, imo, be restricting access to a degree anyway. The god of the oceans just doesn't seem like a likely candidate for a cleric who likes to toss flame strikes and fire storms around. Things to keep in mind: 1) Clerics are healers. I know, not strictly, but this is an expectation. Even the most combat oriented cleric of good can spontaneously cast a cure spell. I wouldn't restrict this too much. Raise dead and company are a different story. 2) Everyone needs something. This is also wrapped into #1, but the point is, if the cleric of the ocean god has a grand total of 8 spells, then it just kind of bites. Knock off a few spells every level, starting with the most obvious "offenders", and work back until you get to the number that you like. 3) Everyone gets some good spells, and everyone gets some bad ones. I don't have to go into detail, and every spell may have a place, but let's face it, some spells have alot more places than others. This ties a bit into #2, but no diety should be weighed down with all of the "bad" spells. As far as specific wizard classes, let school specialization be your guide. I know it isn't exactly what you are looking for, but with the sheer volume of spells out there, I'm sure that if you restricted wizards to divination spells and a single school, or two "neighbor" schools, then they should be able to perform. You could even restrict divination down to the absolute "must have" spells if you choose to (a wizard has to be able to read magic, and I would think that detect magic would be there as well). The thing to keep an eye on here is functionality. For both arcane and divine casters, if they just aren't able to perform, then you need to be willing to give something back until they can function. Failing to do this does no one any favors.
glimeral 04-16-06, 03:35 AM	I agree with the above poster... In the case of wizards, you can always force all wizards to specialize, and then change the specialization system so that, in addition to their opposition schools, they are only able to cast spells of 3rd level or lower from any school other than the one(s) they are specialized in.... As far as sorcerers go.... I would leave them alone. Their small list of spells/known is already an effective "specialization". If you must restrict them, make "certain" spells have a regional component. IOWs, you have to travel to a certain region before you will be able to learn it...This goes for all arcane casters, although you can also apply it to divine casters too if you want (although it is a little harder to rationalize why a deity grants different spells to different regions where it is worshiped unless you rationalize that each region focuses on one ASPECT of the deities portfolio over the other ones). This knocks the power level of wizards down somewhat (something which many gamers on these boards feel needs to happen anyway), and simultaneously makes the Sorcerer that little bit more attractive (something, many gamers on this board also complain about).
Frugal 04-17-06, 09:48 AM	Thanks for the tips. I do need to take a closer look at the specialisation rules or the UA variants as one possible solution. As I mentioned in my original post, I want magic to feel a little more specialised. From what I've found so far, here's what I'm thinking: Warlock and Warmage are both good blaster oriented classes. The Warlock just has his eldritch blast and invocations so the flavour would be that he's learned how to create that blast and how to manipulate it. The warmage is obviously someone who specialised in using magic for war. The wu jen can be tweaked a little bit to become an "elementalist" class. For clerics, I really like the idea of having their deity determine their spell list more. The domain abilities and spells are a nice start but I'd like to take it further. I imagine it's going to be a matter of developing my pantheon and then sifting through the spell compendium to figure out the spell lists for each deity. It doesn't have to even be a matter of limiting spells so much as making things more specific. For instance, if there are arcane or druid spells not on the cleric spell list that really fit the flavour of one particular deity (say a lot of the fire spells for a god of fire) then those would go on the spell list. Whereas a god of peace wouldn't offer access to combat spells but would have a lot of protection, calming and healing. What it boils down to is that the choice of deity becomes much more important, and this would apply to both PCs and NPCs.
The_Shaman 04-17-06, 11:39 AM	I wonder if there could be such a thing as "domain" spells for sorcerers. Basically, they get to choose one aspect of magic that their magical abilities are intrinsically tied to - i.e. spirit magic, bloodline (draconic, celestial, fiendish, fey etc), gates, magic auras, etc. and know one additional spell associated with it per each level they can cast. Anyone feels like trying to put this in mechanical terms? Alternatively, I saw some house rules once that stated that a sorcerer has to choose a school to specialize in and know at least one spell per level from it, while on the up side every 5 levels s/he'd get an ability associated with it... Necromancer sorcs would get resistances vs things undead are immune to, Enchanter sorcs would get boni to bluff, diplomacy, sense motive etc (and have basically all speech-related skills as class), illusionists get huge bonuses to hide and can at some pt. hide in plain sight, etc. Basically a variation of the UA mage specialization variant.
SilvercatMoonpaw 04-17-06, 12:26 PM	The Hypertext d20 SRD document has Unearthed Arcana's Specialist Wizard Variants (click here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm)) which change the class features of a wizard based on school specialization. From what you seem to want this is a great place to start because you could try adapting some of these variants to maybe the sorcerer.
David_Roben2 04-17-06, 12:59 PM	How about having wizards forced into specializing? My idea revolves around Limiting schools further, but giving level related benefits as well. Here we go... A wizard much choose 1 major school and 3 minor schools of magic. 1 of these schools must be divination. Spells from schools not chosen are prohibited. The major school is treated the same as a specialization in that school. (extra slot, dc's the whole bit) Level dependant abilities are based on the major school for the wizard. Granted abilities: Abjuration-gain some damage reduction every other level, with ever decreasing ways to overcome. i.e. 2/slashing, 4/slashing, 4/cold iron, 6/cold iron, 6/magic, 8/magic, 10/+1, 12/+2, 14/+2, 15/+3 Conjuration-gain bonuses to conjured creatures every other level. i.e. +2 strength, +2 str +2 con +2 dex, +4 str +2 con +2 dex, +4 str +4 con +4 dex, +6 str +4 con +4 dex, and so on. Evoker-gain resist energy 5 of a chosen energy type every 4 levels. much choose an energy type each time gained. if the same as a previously chosen resist, the resistance stacks. I don't know if these are at all balanced, and you of course need to get some equally interesting bonuses for the other schools. NOTE-this format would prevent anyone from getting the archmage PrC.
Seerow 04-17-06, 01:18 PM	Hrm, I actually like the above poster's idea... but I'd change it a bit. 1) Give General School of magic for free. 2) Don't make divination required to have. You're restricting to 4 schools of magic as is, if a player doesn't want some of the more useful spells in the game, don't force it on them. 3) I'd give them access to any spells outside of chosen schools... but they must be cast in a spell slot two (or three) higher than what the norm is. For the level dependant abilities: Abjurer: Why would you make it easier to overcome the DR in time? I'd make it something like the number increases by1 at every even numbered level. Until 6th level this is overcome by Magic. At 6th this becomes Magic and Slashing. At 12th this becomes Magic Slashing Cold Iron/Silver (Alignment dependant). At 18th it becomes DR/- Conjurer-I'd make it something similar to the bonuses a Dread Necromancer gets for his undead. Maybe some other abilities like summoning that doesn't take a full round action. >_> Evoker-Cut and Paste from Warmage, I'd say. >_> Of course, me being me, I'd probably go through all the spells and modify them to fit with a spellpoint system, giving spellpoints as a Psion gains Power Points, and let them be spontaneous casters. Sorcerer's remain viable as they would get a MP boost and don't have to give up any schools specifically. Cleric/Druids spell lists would need a lot of cutting as well. But dealing with arcane classes is so much easier.
David_Roben2 04-17-06, 01:43 PM	Hrm, I actually like the above poster's idea... but I'd change it a bit. 1) Give General School of magic for free. 2) Don't make divination required to have. You're restricting to 4 schools of magic as is, if a player doesn't want some of the more useful spells in the game, don't force it on them. 3) I'd give them access to any spells outside of chosen schools... but they must be cast in a spell slot two (or three) higher than what the norm is. I like #3. It gives the impression that with heavy studying you can still cast spells you normally wouldn't get. Maybe give a caster level penalty as well.(anything like -2 caster level but I'd personally go with half caster level) For the level dependant abilities: Abjurer: Why would you make it easier to overcome the DR in time? I'd make it something like the number increases by1 at every even numbered level. Until 6th level this is overcome by Magic. At 6th this becomes Magic and Slashing. At 12th this becomes Magic Slashing Cold Iron/Silver (Alignment dependant). At 18th it becomes DR/- You're a little backwords here. 5/slashing means that this DR is ONLY overcome by slashing damage or magic. 5/slashing, cold iron means slashing or cold iron can overcome the resistance. So, like you said above up to 6th lvl only magic can overcome the DR then at 6th lvl magic OR slashing came get through. Your list is getting progressively worse. I get your idea and it's the same as mine. Just keep an eye on your terminology. ;)
kelvinaw273 04-17-06, 02:05 PM	You need to look up the variations like Domain Wizards and specialized variations in Unearthed Arcana. These should give you some ideas. Essentially, what you are looking for are different regions having different magical paradigms. For example, in one region magic is approached almost scientifically, and primarily for power, so all wizards tend to be Evocation specialists. Elves tend to prefer the subtle side of magic, so they produce Enchantment specialists. In a third region strongly influenced by the Druidic faith, Transformation magic is favoured. I would adjust the schools banned to represent the regions furthest from those where a specialisation is practised, sothat it can be argued that they study the magic of related regions with whome they have contact.
Seerow 04-17-06, 02:06 PM	No, I specified "And" not "Or" Thus, at 6th level it would take a Magical Slashing Weapon (as opposed to just a Magic Weapon) to pierce the DR. At 12th it would have to be *special metal* Magical Slashing Weapon. (As opposed to just the Magical Slashing Weapon) And and Or are big differences =P
David_Roben2 04-17-06, 03:14 PM	No, I specified "And" not "Or" Thus, at 6th level it would take a Magical Slashing Weapon (as opposed to just a Magic Weapon) to pierce the DR. At 12th it would have to be *special metal* Magical Slashing Weapon. (As opposed to just the Magical Slashing Weapon) And and Or are big differences =P Got ya. I was confused because if it read 5/slashing, magic that would be "slashing and magic" but would mean either would bypass. Also, I haven't ever seen DR get that specific before. As far as I know, the core RAW don't have any examples of anything like this, so it wouldn't be a common asumption that you would need both or all of the listed descriptors. It's an interesting idea, but that means that a +5 heavy mace couldn't bypass the LVL 6 DR but a +1 longsword could. That seems a little off to me. I think a single descriptor that gets tougher every couple of levels would be easier to work with and fit into the RAW a little better.
Mitchell 04-17-06, 09:40 PM	Got ya. I was confused because if it read 5/slashing, magic that would be "slashing and magic" but would mean either would bypass. Also, I haven't ever seen DR get that specific before. As far as I know, the core RAW don't have any examples of anything like this, so it wouldn't be a common asumption that you would need both or all of the listed descriptors. It's an interesting idea, but that means that a +5 heavy mace couldn't bypass the LVL 6 DR but a +1 longsword could. That seems a little off to me. I think a single descriptor that gets tougher every couple of levels would be easier to work with and fit into the RAW a little better. The lich has DR blunt and magic. It has to be both a blunt and magical weapon to bypass their DR. A few others have similar abilities. Also, I'm operating on the assumption that this is 3.5, and if that's the case, then DR doesn't care about the exact "+" of a weapon. It's either magic or it isn't. Lastly, if I'm reading Seerow's post correctly, a wizard could have DR10/- at 20th level. I know that they don't have alot of HPs, but DR10 is excessive.
Frugal 04-18-06, 09:04 AM	Essentially, what you are looking for are different regions having different magical paradigms. For example, in one region magic is approached almost scientifically, and primarily for power, so all wizards tend to be Evocation specialists. Elves tend to prefer the subtle side of magic, so they produce Enchantment specialists. In a third region strongly influenced by the Druidic faith, Transformation magic is favoured. I would adjust the schools banned to represent the regions furthest from those where a specialisation is practised, sothat it can be argued that they study the magic of related regions with whome they have contact. Exactly, I really don't like how generic some things are in D&D. Yes, you can do a lot with feats and PrC's but I like inserting some more variety. I'm a big fan of the concept of racial substitution levels (but not always the execution of them) and the idea of region being important. I think that if it's done properly, this can add a lot of interest to the campaing. Off the top of my head, it means that when the players encounter different races or people from different regions there's a noticeably different feel to the way their magic works, be it simply different arcane spells or a totally different magic system. My explanation for this will simply be that there are several "sources" of magic or ways of harnessing it and it takes a great deal of study/talent to learn how to manipulate magic from one source or in one way. For instance, I'm thinking about tweaking the Wu Jen class into an "elementalist" class, they would be using the elemental planes as a source of their magical power. Meanwhile, someone else might be drawing magical power from the plane of shadow (shadowcaster) or have developed the mental ability to shape the latent magic of the materail plane with the power of their mind (psionics).