Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DropsonExistance 04-28-08, 03:19 AM	Sure, there's a multitude of threads every day discussing the relative strengths and weaknesses of classes. All sorts of wacky, out of the box, specialized solutions come out in these discussions that are powerful, but what about the overall class? Even if a class was potentially powerful, would you play it if it was only powerful when combined with certain confining stipulations to make advantage of that power, damned be any such things as "character concept"? So let's hear it: the classes that are the lousiest to play, with no correlation to supposed power levels.
OneWinged4ngel 04-28-08, 03:33 AM	Lessee... Monk is lame; you are shoehorned all the way, and you can't really do anything cool that you should be able to. Lack of versatility in build stifles creativity and roleplaying concepts. Fighter gets boring fast, since you don't get any real versatility or variety in play, and your narrow skill set leaves you out of a lot of situations. Empty levels leave you with nothing to do while everyone else is busily updating their characters with fantastic and interesting new tactical options, and feat-granting levels only serve to remind you that you're going to simply be doing the same bloody thing you always were... with an extra +2! Builds for the Fighter that take him outside of the status quo field of builds and concepts take time to build up, and until then you're pretty much just a Warrior. I also find that with the Fighter, despite the level-up process being one of the least enjoyable, it also tends to *take me the longest* because I have to carefully plan ahead and dig around for feats and make sure I'm not ruining my character in some way I'll regret later on. Fighter is further frustrating because his lack of skills and unique abilities makes it hard to pass him off as an elite soldier or heroic warrior who is able to defeat arcane monstrosities and fantastic challenges with nothing more than a good blade by his side. Barbarian is a bore because you're a raging barbarian once a day (a few more times later!), and just the guy with an axe who can't read the rest of the day, not to mention the same problem the Fighter suffers from. The barbarian also tends to make me cry because of the simple fact that it just doesn't seem like you have a choice to use anything other than a two-handed weapon. Fighter has the same problem, to a lesser extent. Frustrating restrictions that make the formation and execution of RP concepts difficult, repetitive gameplay... these things just suck. I can't stand playing as these classes, and always find alternatives far more enjoyable, not to mention more suitable to any RP concept that one might decide to use one of the above classes for. Outside of core classes... well, I haven't actually bothered to play many of the less attractive noncore classes out there. Still, it's fairly easy to point out which classes would suffer from similar problems.
runestar 04-28-08, 04:06 AM	Cleric healbot. Don't get me wrong - they are terribly effective, but I was literally bored to tears playing one.
OneWinged4ngel 04-28-08, 04:11 AM	Cleric healbot. Don't get me wrong - they are terribly effective, but I was literally bored to tears playing one. I've never actually played one of those. I play clerics plenty. They heal, too. But it was never a dominant combat role. I can't really think of a reason why you would play one, either. They're boring, and they aren't optimal. To be completely honest (and tangential), I find the prevalence of the style of healing found in D&D to be a rather unfortunate gamist legacy that no one's had the innovation to throw out yet (well, at least, not out of D&D). It's not a fun aspect of play, and it (generally) doesn't serve to support the immersive roleplaying aspect of the game. In fact, it has more of a tendency to put a drain on dramatic effect.
runestar 04-28-08, 07:18 AM	I can't really think of a reason why you would play one, either. They're boring, and they aren't optimal. More because I didn't really know what to expect of a healbot. The other party members consisted of a fighter, barb and rogue who had a tendency to just rush headlong into combat, relying on me to heal them as appropriate. And the blame would fall squarely on me if I was remiss in my "responsibilities", even though the key reason why they were taking damage left and right was due to their extremely reckless style of play (you would think that an elven rogue wearing just studded leather would have the sense to stay out of melee and shoot with a bow.... :rolleyes: ) Healing during combat (to be fair, everyone chipped in for a wand of CLW so that I could do my job, but that was besides the point) pretty much became the only thing I was doing, leaving me with no time or actions left to attack. Sucked, but seeing that the current campaign arc was coming to an end, I stucked it out for a while longer before quitting. I guess you could say that I was a glutton for punishment.:P
KainHighwind 04-28-08, 08:14 AM	I don't like that most, if not all melee classes are worthless later on, unless someone has some god options for me. I like the fighter, but they are horrid to play; I mainly only play them for the wpn spec. feats
Metafictional 04-28-08, 12:20 PM	When I made my first Cleric for 3.0, I tried to be as versatile as possible, trying to make a "Red Mage". Elven Cleric (for the weapon profs), Magic Domain (so I could use arcane wands/scrolls), I thought I had all the bases covered. But between having to constantly drop spells for healing, I didn't have much else to do. What's worse, when I'd decide to buff myself to enter the fray, I'd end up blowing an action to get maybe one, two hits in. I was constantly digging into my spell list to find "cool" spells, but I'd rarely get a chance to use them, since I was always healing. Then one day, it all clicked. The function of a Cleric, I realized, was not to self-buff, nor was it to use cure x wounds in combat. A buff cast on someone else meant they would be able to use it before I would. A Bull's Strength on the Barbarian would do more damage than it ever would cast on me, as he could conceivably Full Attack on his next turn after getting the bonus. A simple Bless spell would make the entire party (including myself!) more effective. It was just like back when I used to play M:tG; 1-1 trades are bad. Each spell you cast has to do something in the same turn, or you aren't really accomplishing anything. Once I got that into my head, I realized the Cleric's job is to make everyone more effective, to cast spells so you don't have to cast as many healing spells. Shorter combats = less opportunities for allies to get hurt. Offensive buffs reduce combat time. Defensive buffs and enemy debuffs reduce the chance of allies getting hurt in the first place. As I rose to higher and higher levels, I found myself doing more with my lower level spell slots. Aid, Shield of Faith, Bear's Endurance...and of course, when things got really tough, I could drop Prayer. A lot of people discount the value of spells like Bless, Bane, and Prayer, because, let's face it, a -1 or +1 isn't very sexy. It feels like a very small advantage. And it is, but the more targets that are affected by these spells, the more advantage you get out of them, overall. The game, sadly, didn't go long enough for me to get 5th-level spells, and I only ever used Divine Power once (just to try it out...and because I had to waste a turn casting it, it wasn't very useful to me), but it was a rewarding experience, thus turning a bad experience into a good one. Now, however, whenever I see a Cleric fumbling with their spells, or doing nothing but cast heals, I just shake my head. What's worse is, you often can't even get them to cast a simple Bless because they are convinced it's a weak spell. It's kind of sad. (My above experiences with a Cleric were in a campaign where I had little prep time, and I lacked resources for magic item creation which would have let me pass around my spells a bit more freely. It was also pre-Divine Metamagic, which I'm told makes the self-buffing route more effective). My absolute least favorable experience was playing a Fighter, my first 3.0 character. I rolled amazing stats, and ended up with a Human Fighter with Str 17, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 14. The Int 16 was a total waste, since this was pre-Able Learner, and I had to pay double for any useful skill. I didn't dare take Power Attack, because I was usually scrambling to hit anything. I was sword-and-board with a Bastard Sword (so I could do more damage, heh), and I used a shield because unlike 2E, shields were useful (silly Fighter, it's only another +1 AC). My Feats were all chosen to shore up weaknesses, I had Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Blind-Fighting... All so I could run up and full attack every round. Which really started to suck when I fought more and more enemies who could full attack more often than I could, for more damage. After level 6, I couldn't take it any more, and I switched to Barbarian, only to find that Rage, though awesome, was horrible in that, as it was useable only once each day, I could never be certain if it was the right time to use it. Oh and Rage with a one-hander, nuff said. And yet, even now, my friends keep going on about how "overpowered" my Fighter was in that game! Thankfully, I'm happy to report that I recently got into a new campaign that needed a tank, and after another amazing set of rolls (why do I always roll awesome when I plan on going Fighter? 18, 16, 15, 14, 13, 13!), I made a tactical Fighter with a spiked chain, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, etc., and am now having a blast. I just park myself in front of the casters/archers, and when enemies blitz past our two Barbarians, they get stopped cold by my opportunity attacks. This is a blast, and it makes me happy to be the Fighter again. Now if only I could find a game where I can play a martial adept with White Raven style...oh well, here's hoping Warlord will be fun in 4E!
LoneFlame 04-28-08, 12:51 PM	Until Tome of Battle(which I like, but have some issues with), the Melee guys were boring & repetitive with few real abilities. ToB gave the melee guys some variety & in many ways replaced some of the core classes that needed some work(melee Fighter with Warblade, Monk with Swordsage, and Paladin with Crusader). So, until that book came out, you had to build warrior/casters to really have much fun with melee. Anywayz. Druid is arguably the lamest thing to play. Sure, Wild Shape, Animal Companion, & 9th level spells(with a good spell list) make you really really powerful, but the tree-hugging hippy crap is lame. The best case scenario with role playing a druid is to be someone who respects nature & doesn't want to burn down the forest. The worst case is the bloody environmentalists who seem to want to destroy civilization & set all of the advancements of people back to the stone age. Either way, it's lame.
Salla 04-28-08, 12:59 PM	This is pretty subjective, on the whole, but I'll definitely vote Druid. Wild Shape is a pain in the butt. Keeping track of summons is a pain in the butt. The flavor is a pain in the butt. Add in the fact that it's crazystupidbroken(tm) ... yeah.
navar100 04-28-08, 01:12 PM	Truenamer, because eventually you can't succeed on anything unless you build the One True Way Of Truenamers with the One True Magic Items. Healer, because you don't do anything. Marshall, because you're only good for standing there. Once you use up your one cool thing for the day, you're done. I find all the Core classes to be fun to play. Personal mileage I wouldn't have fun with rogue, bard, or ranger, but they are fun to play in the general sense.
Beckettvampire 04-28-08, 01:35 PM	Cleric, because it lacks any real form of diversity, unlike every other class in the game, and because it is so stupidly restricted. I have no problem being a healer. If it gets to the point where I'm not having any fun in combat, than my character starts taking notes on other characters actions. If I'm a cleric of St. Cuthburt and the Rogue is just acting like a preteen player, "I'm sorry, my deity just doesn't approve of that and I'm not going to risk offending my patron for you." Secondly, there is no other class, in any book (including NPC) that gets less than the Cleric over 20 levels. Tertiarrily, there are few feats geared specificallyy to Clerics, as oppossed to every other class in the game. Four, there are few half decent PC's for the or even specifically for the Cleric. This also applies to 3, when there are they are either nerfed to be extremely dumb, because some rpgaer thought they where over powered, or are good enought to count that they outway other options and it does become over powered, (or people think that it is anyway). Five, they are not at all respected, both in and out of game. Six, they need to have a few more skills, Sense Motive comes to mind. But to the extent that each deity or domain needs to grant a class skill, just for diversity and not knowing what to expect. Seven, they get the least amount of new material in new books, (even books that are meant to be mostly for them (Complete Champion cough cough). As for Monk, I just think most people do not know how to play a good monk. They are plenty powerful. They can lack damage against higher level monsters, but they can usually pull off something cool like trip/disarm/grapple or get the H*ll away to give the party a great advantage. Also, a baseline monk can wipe out the rest of the party. Especially those cocky wizards and rogues.
nightwyrm 04-28-08, 01:54 PM	I haven't played that many characters but I find the druid to be the most annoying to play in game. The amount of book keeping required is enormous. In addition to the entire druid spell list, I had to keep track of wild shapes stats, pages of summon animal stats, and an extra character in the form of the animal companion. It's ironic that the tree hugging class is the most paper (and tree) consuming class in real life.
Clawhound 04-28-08, 03:28 PM	The worst class is the one that your DM does not like. DM's tend to "demonstrate" why they are correct.
Lotus Crane 04-28-08, 03:49 PM	Cleric, because it lacks any real form of diversity, unlike every other class in the game, and because it is so stupidly restricted. Okay, that is patentedly and empirically untrue. Having a choice of deities and domains can make every cleric totally different on paper at character creation, and being able to change your spells every day (of which you have access to the entire list, minus the domains you didn't take, and possibly spells opposite your alignment) makes you able to play your cleric differently every day. You can be a healbot one day, a self-buffing Czilla the next, the summoner/gater the day after that, the debuffing and battlefield control freak a week later, etc. Restricted? Clerics aren't paladins, knights, or even druids; you have a lot of leeway in the the actions you're allowed to take and the behavior you can display - remember, you can differ from your deity by one step, so a cleric of Pelor can participate in activites that full under an alignment range of lawful good, neutral good, chaotic good, and even true neutral. That's plenty flexible enough, for a character with a believably consistent personality. Have you actually played as a cleric, or with a party member who played a dynamic, multi-role cleric? I'm guessing you haven't played a cleric yourself, and/or the party member who played the cleric didn't know any better than to just be a healbot, which is unfortunate for both of you.
Bat_manuel 04-28-08, 04:11 PM	I gotta give it to fighter, way too many dead levels and nothing spectacular that can't be done with other classes. Most fun I ever had with a class was playing a beguiler. I had everyone I was playing with (in and out of game) think I was playing a bard for a while. Then when an assassin came calling for me and using my real name they got a little suspicious. As for clerics though, they are painfully useful in my opinion. Hmm... How can I make my barbarian ridiculous? How about 4 or 5 levels in cleric! Let's go with strength and good domains. Though a lot of players argue that it isn't optimal because of BAB loss and less rages but there have been quite a few times when enlarge person and heals have been more than a boon.
Leress 04-28-08, 05:25 PM	Secondly, there is no other class, in any book (including NPC) that gets less than the Cleric over 20 levels. *points to commoner, warrior, adept, aristocrat, magewright* Tertiarrily, there are few feats geared specificallyy to Clerics, as oppossed to every other class in the game. Divine Meta magic As for Monk, I just think most people do not know how to play a good monk. They are plenty powerful. They can lack damage against higher level monsters, but they can usually pull off something cool like trip/disarm/grapple or get the H*ll away to give the party a great advantage. Also, a baseline monk can wipe out the rest of the party. Especially those cocky wizards and rogues. How is getting away a party advantage? Wizards take out monks with Fly, Forecage and Acid Fog. Rouges do it by sneak attacking with acid flasks. ------------------------- Now back to the topic I would say the class least fun to play would be a warrior, you are like a fighter but you get even less (no bonus feats and less hp)
navar100 04-28-08, 05:48 PM	Cleric, because it lacks any real form of diversity, unlike every other class in the game, and because it is so stupidly restricted. I have no problem being a healer. If it gets to the point where I'm not having any fun in combat, than my character starts taking notes on other characters actions. If I'm a cleric of St. Cuthburt and the Rogue is just acting like a preteen player, "I'm sorry, my deity just doesn't approve of that and I'm not going to risk offending my patron for you." Secondly, there is no other class, in any book (including NPC) that gets less than the Cleric over 20 levels. Tertiarrily, there are few feats geared specificallyy to Clerics, as oppossed to every other class in the game. Four, there are few half decent PC's for the or even specifically for the Cleric. This also applies to 3, when there are they are either nerfed to be extremely dumb, because some rpgaer thought they where over powered, or are good enought to count that they outway other options and it does become over powered, (or people think that it is anyway). Five, they are not at all respected, both in and out of game. Six, they need to have a few more skills, Sense Motive comes to mind. But to the extent that each deity or domain needs to grant a class skill, just for diversity and not knowing what to expect. Seven, they get the least amount of new material in new books, (even books that are meant to be mostly for them (Complete Champion cough cough). As for Monk, I just think most people do not know how to play a good monk. They are plenty powerful. They can lack damage against higher level monsters, but they can usually pull off something cool like trip/disarm/grapple or get the H*ll away to give the party a great advantage. Also, a baseline monk can wipe out the rest of the party. Especially those cocky wizards and rogues. 1) Spells are your variety. You can be a dedicated warrior, dedicated spellcaster, dedicated buffer, dedicated multitasker. Restricted, how? What's "stupid"? 2) What, a Sorcerer's familiar is so Super Awesome? Clerics do get nice things. They are called spells. 3) Divine Feats, especially Divine Metamagic, the normal Metamagic feats, Augment Summoning, Augment Healing, Extra Turning, Domain feats 4) The druid has only one prestige class worth taking. It's a compliment to the cleric one would rather stay in cleric than go into a prestige class. 5) Can't be helped, but notice I am *defending* the cleric. Please note my Avatar. 6) Couldn't hurt. 7) Rhymes with bells. See #2.
Vadin 04-28-08, 05:50 PM	Now back to the topic I would say the class least fun to play would be a warrior, you are like a fighter but you get even less (no bonus feats and less hp) Are you regularly using NPC classes?
Leress 04-28-08, 06:00 PM	Are you regularly using NPC classes? More like semi regularly (playing in a low magic type game NPC classes only [that also includes the enemies with class levels])
Auspex7 04-28-08, 06:16 PM	i'm not a big fan of playing pure casters or pure melee. i'm a big fan of anything gish-y, clerics, bards, etc.
OneWinged4ngel 04-28-08, 07:17 PM	but the tree-hugging hippy crap is not a result of the class, but rather your own flavor and play style failings. Classes are an entirely mechanical construct. If you want to make your druid a tree hugging hippy, you have only yourself to blame. The best case scenario with role playing a druid is apparently beyond your imagination and to be someone who respects nature & doesn't want to burn down the forest is definitely not it. :rolleyes: Cleric, because it lacks any real form of diversity, unlike every other class in the game, and because it is so stupidly restricted. Secondly, there is no other class, in any book (including NPC) that gets less than the Cleric over 20 levels. Tertiarrily, there are few feats geared specificallyy to Clerics, as oppossed to every other class in the game. Four, there are few half decent PC's for the or even specifically for the Cleric. This also applies to 3, when there are they are either nerfed to be extremely dumb, because some rpgaer thought they where over powered, or are good enought to count that they outway other options and it does become over powered, (or people think that it is anyway). Five, they are not at all respected, both in and out of game. Six, they need to have a few more skills, Sense Motive comes to mind. But to the extent that each deity or domain needs to grant a class skill, just for diversity and not knowing what to expect. Seven, they get the least amount of new material in new books, (even books that are meant to be mostly for them (Complete Champion cough cough). Wait, wait, I think I get where this guy's coming from now. Get this: Bizarro World. You know, like from the crappy DC comics. Opposite land. That all makes sense if you're in Bizarro World. This man clearly isn't stupid, as everyone has already hastily surmised, but just tragically stuck in the wrong reality. :rolleyes: In this dimension, the polar opposite of pretty much everything you said is true. Clerics get unparalelled access to new abilities with every new level or supplement. They possess vast versatility with every character of the class knowing every spell from a vast list that grows with every supplement allowed. They can perform any skill-based task through their spells, or just plain grab themselves a +15 or so bonus to whatever skill they need with a mere 2nd level spell or so. They gain plenty of feats, PrCs, and other abilities geared straight towards them in a great deal of supplements. Oh, and apparently spelling and grammar works completely differently in Bizarro World too. Who knew?
MadWand 04-28-08, 08:54 PM	The most boring class I've played recently has got to be my Figher 2/Paladin 5/Hospitaler 1/Cavalier 1. He's about as optimized a charging paladin you can get under the rules he's played under, capable of 120+ damage/charge. He can consistently knock off an enemy/turn. He's an invaluable asset to the team. But he bores me to tears! He's so easy to nerf with the slightest DM ruling that I can't charge in a particular situation, or some feat I took gets house-ruled. In addition, a simple dungeon crawl can cripple his usefulness. When a DM sees what he can do, they sometimes start getting defensive, and make life even harder, nevermind that an ordinary barbarian could do better in more situations. Never again will I design a character without options. On the other hand, I have a total blast playing any druid. So many options! They are impossible to nerf completely, and I love the paperwork -- that's what spreadsheets are for, after all. It doesn't take more than a few minutes to print off a few favorite wildshapes, and I have a list of summon statblocks with augment summoning feat already factored in. It's nice entering a combat and thinking, "...and how shall I choose to destroy the enemy today, I wonder?"
arkthepieking 04-28-08, 11:15 PM	Honestly? My scout made me want to cry. Run 10 feet, plunk and arrow. Run 10 more feet, plunk an arrow. Run 10 more feet, plunk another arrow. Oh, skill checks? Yeah, once. Skillmonkey is really useful when there aren't any skill checks. Trapfinding did me a lot of good exaclty...0 times. I also built a HORRID soulknife/pyro that relied on his fire lash to trip things, but...well...that just turned out badly. I don't want to think about it right now...
StruckingFuggle 04-28-08, 11:21 PM	To be completely honest (and angential), I find the prevalence of the style of healing found in D&D to be a rather unfortunate gamist legacy that no one's had the sense to throw out yet (well, at least, not out of D&D). It's not a fun aspect of play, and it (generally) doesn't serve to support the immersive roleplaying aspect of the game. In fact, it has more of a tendency to put a drain on dramatic effect. Can you expand on this point?
navar100 04-28-08, 11:39 PM	The most boring class I've played recently has got to be my Figher 2/Paladin 5/Hospitaler 1/Cavalier 1. He's about as optimized a charging paladin you can get under the rules he's played under, capable of 120+ damage/charge. He can consistently knock off an enemy/turn. He's an invaluable asset to the team. But he bores me to tears! He's so easy to nerf with the slightest DM ruling that I can't charge in a particular situation, or some feat I took gets house-ruled. In addition, a simple dungeon crawl can cripple his usefulness. When a DM sees what he can do, they sometimes start getting defensive, and make life even harder, nevermind that an ordinary barbarian could do better in more situations. Never again will I design a character without options. On the other hand, I have a total blast playing any druid. So many options! They are impossible to nerf completely, and I love the paperwork -- that's what spreadsheets are for, after all. It doesn't take more than a few minutes to print off a few favorite wildshapes, and I have a list of summon statblocks with augment summoning feat already factored in. It's nice entering a combat and thinking, "...and how shall I choose to destroy the enemy today, I wonder?" I think your problem would be with the DM and not the class. Some DMs see a warrior deal 120+ damage and go OMG Broken and bring out the nerf bat, but see nothing wrong with a 1st level wizard force a bad guy to save or be effectively dead, and it only gets worse from there. They don't want noncasters to have nice things.
Dionon 04-28-08, 11:59 PM	Classes I hate playing... Wizards. I despise wizards with a passion. I mean I like the fact that they have powerful spells, an infinite capacity for knowledge and the ability to create works of such quality that magic exudes off them. Don't get me wrong. What I don't like is the fact that in two rounds I can make ANY Wizard completely useless. Round 1: That pesky Invisible Stalker steals your Spellbook. Round 2: Someone casts a Fireball at you, which destroys your Scrolls Now what chump? Yeah you can sling spells till you run out, and you might have 5 different spells you can prepare with Spell Mastery, but you're USELESS! All your hard work is gone. All those wonderful spells you fought so hard for are history, and all that XP you spent making scrolls so you didn't run out of spells at an unoppourtune time are toast. Well let's hit'em with a stick! NO! Why would you do that with your puny, puny BaB! You're a ***** smack away from death little mage... and nothing can stop you from spiralling into the abyss!
OneWinged4ngel 04-29-08, 01:00 AM	Can you expand on this point? No, because it would be off-topic.
sonofzeal 04-29-08, 01:23 AM	I played a solo lvl20 Sorc that bored me to tears, because everything was a mix of "oh I have the right spell for that, it's trivial" and "whoops I don't have the right spell for that, I'm boned". I'd much rather play a lvl20 Rogue or Factotum packed to the teeth with utility stuff and improvise as I go along, rather than depend on a particular set of pre-packaged powers. On the other hand, one of the most fun characters I played was a Druid. No matter what happened, I had something of use and could be effective.
JaronK 04-29-08, 03:34 AM	Cleric healbot. Don't get me wrong - they are terribly effective, but I was literally bored to tears playing one. Divine Metamagic: Persistant Lesser Mass Vigor is your best friend. Just cast it at the beginning of the day and tell your party that's all they get. It's wonderfully efficient and it'll teach them to manage the resource. Or you can do it the other way... turn them all into Necropolitans or demand they take Tomb Tainted Soul and then create a couple Necrosis Carnexes (this is how Dread Necromancers do healing). Congratulations, you now have auto healers to handle the boring role. Works really well. On the other hand, the Healer class is nothing but a heal bot. It's a Cleric after you remove the fun, and then add a unicorn. Except I think Clerics can summon Unicorns. So it's just a Cleric without the fun. JaronK
StruckingFuggle 04-29-08, 03:36 AM	Oooh ... What's a Necrosis Carnex?
OneWinged4ngel 04-29-08, 03:51 AM	Oooh ... What's a Necrosis Carnex? Monster from one of the newer MMs.
MadWand 04-29-08, 04:19 AM	I think your problem would be with the DM and not the class. Some DMs see a warrior deal 120+ damage and go OMG Broken and bring out the nerf bat, but see nothing wrong with a 1st level wizard force a bad guy to save or be effectively dead, and it only gets worse from there. They don't want noncasters to have nice things. My cavalier was an RPGA character, so I've played him under several DMs. For the most part, I've been quite fortunate with my DMs, most RPGA DMs are quite competent and fair. There have been a few house rulings that gave me concern of course, and I do get the "OMG broken" reaction from time to time, but I put most of the blame on my character build choices -- that particular build is a one-trick pony, which I find too boring and too easy to shut down.
DropsonExistance 04-29-08, 04:22 AM	It's nice to see someone responding to a thread of mine :) Probably my least favourite character had to be the one rogue I played in an evil campaign. A mongrelfolk evil rogue, nontheless. I competely couldn't get into the character, and ended up a bland, fairly silent watcher for much of the campaign. Druids, however, I love, once I get the paperwork down. For druids, I've found, loose paper makes them hell. Everything written in a notebook, preferably tabbed. And with fleshrakers... having enough dice to roll out all your attacks and damage before your turn comes, and then eliminating the ones that don't hit AC. I never have problems with different druid concepts... the differences between an Exalted druid tank and a Daggerspell Shaper are huge, it's capturing the essence that can be the problem. As for clerics, the one cleric I played was fairly enjoyable once I got the hang of it, but not a traditional cleric in any way. Good cleric of St. Cutherbert summoning demons a la Malconvolker... the DM hated me with all my minions on the field. I think he was rather unhappy when the halfling barbarian and myself managed to take out two of his three "chaos lords" and the other's sword by ourselves, with summoning, sundering, and a delightful spell that makes you explode when you're killed. We didn't survive, but damn, was it fun. Unlike the mongrel. I don't see why anyone would play a healer. It doesn't even sound fun. Wizards tick my friend off because he can't stand prepped casting, and he always ends up preparing the spells that he would learn as, say, a sorcerer or a warmage anyway.
Qube 04-29-08, 04:26 AM	Divine Metamagic: Persistant Lesser Mass Vigor is your best friend. Just cast it at the beginning of the day and tell your party that's all they get. It's wonderfully efficient and it'll teach them to manage the resource.JaronK, I don't agree with you much, but persistnat lesser mass vigor ? 2 thumbs up :ayyyy!:
Disco777 04-29-08, 06:25 AM	Healbot is the worse, how much fun is spamming a few heal spells and dispelling debuffs...
Dionon 04-29-08, 06:50 AM	Wizard = worst of the lot
navar100 04-29-08, 06:58 AM	My cavalier was an RPGA character, so I've played him under several DMs. For the most part, I've been quite fortunate with my DMs, most RPGA DMs are quite competent and fair. There have been a few house rulings that gave me concern of course, and I do get the "OMG broken" reaction from time to time, but I put most of the blame on my character build choices -- that particular build is a one-trick pony, which I find too boring and too easy to shut down. I would accept as a legitimate complaint a one-trick pony character is boring for some people, even if I would disagree for a particular character. Still, the fact that this was an RPGA environment I think also contributed to your boredom. By design each adventure is a railroad. You cannot have ongoing adventure plots on the side. Adventures will not be designed by a DM who knows your character's strengths and weaknesses. A mounted charge build won't be as efficient in a typical dungeon crawl adventure, but a DM of a home campaign would recognize this and purposely design some adventures where you can use your mounted combat to your heart's glee to compensate. It's the same as sometimes the rogue will just have to deal with an adventure with undead as the only enemies and othertimes he gets to have the sneak attack quisinart. (Granted the generic rogue will have an easier time of it in the RPGA environment overall more than a specialized mounted combat character.) I reiterate, though, one-trick ponies can be boring to play. I don't see a Core class being as such. One can be built as such, a fighter as the stereotype, but not as an only option. I see it more as builds being one-trick poines, not a particular class.
navar100 04-29-08, 07:00 AM	JaronK, I don't agree with you much, but persistnat lesser mass vigor ? 2 thumbs up :ayyyy!: I did that when Persistent Spell was only +4 levels. Oh yeah!
Disco777 04-29-08, 07:05 AM	Being a Sorcerer is a yawn fest... Wail of the Banshee, curse or disease who survive and use Scorching Ray and fear people who get close... You pwn anyone but its Op
esrz22 04-29-08, 08:08 AM	I've never actually played something I didn't have fun as. I'm an odd one, but I honestly enjoy the paperwork keeping. I love keeping track of the various bits of my character, choosing everything and all.
sonofzeal 04-29-08, 02:01 PM	Healbot is the worse, how much fun is spamming a few heal spells and dispelling debuffs... Actually, I'll be playing a Healbot very soon. Not just a Healbot, but a HEALER Healbot. With Vow of Nonviolence. And I'll have combat options out the wazoo. No, really. Here's my options - Healing is obviously big. Vow of Peace keeps me alive and provides a Calm Emotions aura. Trip lacks the feat but is still possible, as is Grapple, and both help for minor Battlefield Control. Stand Still also doesn't violate the vows and boosts that further. Saps deal nonlethal and again are fine with the vows. Handle Animal provides extra pets, which aren't bound by my vow. Cloudy Conjuration appears on every Cure spell I cast, and functions for battlefield control and debuffing. Now, none of those (except the Healing) is particularly powerful, but that still gives me more options than some other players.
Auspex7 04-29-08, 02:11 PM	Actually, I'll be playing a Healbot very soon. Not just a Healbot, but a HEALER Healbot. With Vow of Nonviolence. And I'll have combat options out the wazoo. No, really. Here's my options - Healing is obviously big. Vow of Peace keeps me alive and provides a Calm Emotions aura. Trip lacks the feat but is still possible, as is Grapple, and both help for minor Battlefield Control. Stand Still also doesn't violate the vows and boosts that further. Saps deal nonlethal and again are fine with the vows. Handle Animal provides extra pets, which aren't bound by my vow. Cloudy Conjuration appears on every Cure spell I cast, and functions for battlefield control and debuffing. Now, none of those (except the Healing) is particularly powerful, but that still gives me more options than some other players. i think i'd still prefer to play a cleric/blackguard with Vow of Extreeeeeeme Violence.
sonofzeal 04-29-08, 07:29 PM	i think i'd still prefer to play a cleric/blackguard with Vow of Extreeeeeeme Violence. Oh, granted, but I enjoy setting challanges for myself, and I think this one worked well. Point is that any class always has options if you're creative enough, and while "most powerful" and "most fun to play" may not always be the same thing, you can usually achieve one or the other.
JaronK 04-29-08, 07:40 PM	Oooh ... What's a Necrosis Carnex? It's an undead critter in MM IV (IIRC) that can be created by Animate Dead (caster level 11 minimum). You have permanent control of them (as you would a skeleton of zombie created that way). They're minorly intelligent and, if left to their own devices, always follow the strongest undead thing near them. Their only attack does negative energy damage, which they also use to heal undead critters, and they have an aura that weakens living things. They naturally like to heal undead first, attack living second. In a party that's healed by negative energy damage, they're great, and function as quite literal healbots. They're fully automated and just run about healing your party. They don't have a lot of hitpoints, so you have to be careful with them, and they do cost about 200gp to create, but they're great if you don't want to have to think much about healing. JaronK
JaronK 04-29-08, 07:40 PM	JaronK, I don't agree with you much, but persistnat lesser mass vigor ? 2 thumbs up :ayyyy!: Hey, I know how to be efficient, and I know how to get things done. And nobody likes being stuck as the healbot. JaronK
JaronK 04-29-08, 07:42 PM	Actually, I'll be playing a Healbot very soon. Not just a Healbot, but a HEALER Healbot. With Vow of Nonviolence. And I'll have combat options out the wazoo. No, really. Here's my options - Healing is obviously big. Vow of Peace keeps me alive and provides a Calm Emotions aura. Trip lacks the feat but is still possible, as is Grapple, and both help for minor Battlefield Control. Stand Still also doesn't violate the vows and boosts that further. Saps deal nonlethal and again are fine with the vows. Handle Animal provides extra pets, which aren't bound by my vow. Cloudy Conjuration appears on every Cure spell I cast, and functions for battlefield control and debuffing. Now, none of those (except the Healing) is particularly powerful, but that still gives me more options than some other players. The issue here is that those vows make life hard for the party, because you have to be like a paladin, only more so. Plus, a Cleric pretty much does all of this better. JaronK
sonofzeal 04-29-08, 08:20 PM	The issue here is that those vows make life hard for the party, because you have to be like a paladin, only more so. Plus, a Cleric pretty much does all of this better. JaronK Not quite. My behavior is held to a higher standard than a Paladin's in some ways, but I don't have any restriction on association beyond what a LG Rogue might have. Vow of Non-Violence is the only one that makes life hard for others, because it gives people a minor penalty if they perform a CDG in my area. Other than that, everything's purely in Roleplay. I can be non-lawful, can lie when necessary, and can go against legitimate authority if I feel the need. Most importantly, I associate freely with evil characters, in full knowledge that they're evil, and suffer no penalty for it. At worst, I may attempt to "save" them - which, while potentially annoying, is far easier on the party than the paladin being forced by his code to "punish those who harm or threaten innocents" and smash in the face of the party rogue. As to the Cleric doing it better... well, not quite. The complaint generally isn't that the Healer is worse, just that the Healer isn't nearly as much better as it should be. It can still cast Cure Minor for 5 hp, something no Cleric I've seen can do (and get CLW for 1d8+11 with a single feat)... and can fully recharge its spells with a mere hour's rest, something I haven't seen any other spellcaster do. Also the Unicorn, while fruity, is reasonably sweet. But yeah, Clerics are by far the better class overall, I'm just playing a Healer 'cause I wanted something different. So yeah, back on topic - Bards are pretty frustrating to play. No feat options in Core, no real combat utility... and any use for a bard I've ever seen is either pathetic or gamebreaking. Inspire Courage is in the former catagory, unless you pile on the feats like Song of the Heart and Word of Creation, at which point it moves to the latter catagory. Melee combat is solidly pathetic for the most part (although there are exceptions). Fascinate + Suggestion is solidly gamebreaking because of the DCs, so no DM worth his salt will ever give you an opertunity to exploit it. All in all... not so much a "weak" class, as one that I can't see as ever being balanced in a normal group.
GalaGalaxia 04-29-08, 09:28 PM	Cleric ... Secondly, there is no other class, in any book (including NPC) that gets less than the Cleric over 20 levels. Tertiarrily, there are few feats geared specificallyy to Clerics, as oppossed to every other class in the game. haha Ever read all the amazing class abilities a pure sorcerer gets? Didn't think so. At least the cleric gets two good saves, a decent hit die, 3/4 BAB progression, and cool domain abilities. The sorcerer gets none of those. And, few feats? You mean, since you can reasonably benefit from all the fighter feats AND the caster feats?
StruckingFuggle 04-30-08, 12:26 AM	They don't have a lot of hitpoints, so you have to be careful with them, and they do cost about 200gp to create, but they're great if you don't want to have to think much about healing. JaronK Shrink one or two and have it sit quietly in a bag of holding, then jump in the bag if you need out-of-combat healing? :)
JaronK 04-30-08, 02:22 AM	Shrink one or two and have it sit quietly in a bag of holding, then jump in the bag if you need out-of-combat healing? :) Technically, you could assemble the body, then cast Permanent Shrink Item on it. Now animate it. The Shrink Item effect stays (but can't be recast) because spells only check targetting when you cast them. Pull him out of your pocket and unshrink him when you want him to get with the healing. So then you have yourself a pocket healer! JaronK
ErodirTheSwift 04-30-08, 03:02 AM	I hate druids and clerics. No issue against fighters because I don't usully play the stock fighter where they always have the same stuff. yeah I played a fighter as an archer once didn't work to well when my wizard buddy got attacked but I survived... Which isn't really the best attitude in a game involving teamwork. PS I hate bloody paladins to restricting alignment wise
JaronK 04-30-08, 03:31 AM	Not quite. My behavior is held to a higher standard than a Paladin's in some ways, but I don't have any restriction on association beyond what a LG Rogue might have. Vow of Non-Violence is the only one that makes life hard for others, because it gives people a minor penalty if they perform a CDG in my area. Other than that, everything's purely in Roleplay. I can be non-lawful, can lie when necessary, and can go against legitimate authority if I feel the need. Most importantly, I associate freely with evil characters, in full knowledge that they're evil, and suffer no penalty for it. At worst, I may attempt to "save" them - which, while potentially annoying, is far easier on the party than the paladin being forced by his code to "punish those who harm or threaten innocents" and smash in the face of the party rogue. But if you read over the section on being Exalted, it actually does say you're even more goodie two shoes than a Paladin. You don't have the same code, but yeah, you actually have to be even more good. Running around lying all the time gets all your feats revoked, in fact, so you can fall just like a Paladin. As to the Cleric doing it better... well, not quite. The complaint generally isn't that the Healer is worse, just that the Healer isn't nearly as much better as it should be. It can still cast Cure Minor for 5 hp, something no Cleric I've seen can do (and get CLW for 1d8+11 with a single feat)... and can fully recharge its spells with a mere hour's rest, something I haven't seen any other spellcaster do. Ah, but consider the fact that a Cleric can still heal 15 hitpoints with a first level spell (Lesser Vigor) or cast Divine Metamagic: Persistant Lesser Mass Vigor and heal all day long with that single 3rd level slot. The Healer can't do anything like that. Their lesser spell selection often makes them worse healers in the long run... sure they're good at casting the spells they have, but there are better spells. And besides, Healers can't get into Radiant Servant of Pelor. *shrug* Also the idea of playing a pure healbot makes me cringe. JaronK
Senevri 04-30-08, 08:11 AM	Running around lying all the time gets all your feats revoked, Lying is Chaotic, not Evil. ...Now, if the character's lying causes harm to non-evil creatures, it's different, though. So there are some limits. Want to see an exalted character with a Vow of Nonviolence? Watch Trigun.
JaronK 04-30-08, 07:01 PM	Lying is Chaotic, not Evil. ...Now, if the character's lying causes harm to non-evil creatures, it's different, though. So there are some limits. Want to see an exalted character with a Vow of Nonviolence? Watch Trigun. Still, the entire first section in BoED makes it very clear what a very good sort of character you must be to be exalted. And a single evil act will lose you those feats. The restrictions are pretty intense... paladins don't have to be charitable, for example, but Exalted characters are called out as being so. JaronK