Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MortonStromgal 10-05-07, 07:09 PM	So I really like the 3 base clases presented in the tome of battle but I think they outshine the normal classes (at leased in cool factor) what classes go well with the 3 presented in this book? Please include what book the class is found in and the publisher :D thanks!
InkBlot 10-06-07, 12:45 PM	What do you mean by "go well with?" Do you want classes that multiclass well with the Crusader, Swordsage, and Warblade? Do you want classes that can help the Crusader, Swordsage, and Warblade in a party? Well, the ToB classes multiclass extremely well. Your initiator level increases by 1/2 for every non-martial-adept class level you have. Initiator level also isn't as important as caster level, so losing a little isn't as bad. And boosts, counters, and stances don't take away your actions from doing what your other class levels let you do. The Crusader fills the same role as the Paladin, as does the Swordsage with the Monk, and the Warblade with the Barbarian/Fighter. The also fill in for Gishes, Rogue/Fighters, and Ranger/Fighters. So any classes that work well in a team with a Monk will work well in a team with a Swordsage. OK, the Crusader doesn't fill exactly the same role as the Paladin. The Crusader is a better tank. A true tank. A tanking Crusader is an iron umbrella of safety for her party. Crusaders don't die. But a Crusader doesn't have to tank. Generally, the ToB classes are not more powerful. They're just more flexible. Imagine a Fighter who can change half his Fighter bonus feats between each fight. He'll never be better than any other Fighter, but he'll be able to explore more tactics and he'll never be irrelevant. Edit: What classes work well with a ToB class also depends on that character's specific build, to an extent. Some Warblades love to have a flanking Rogue. Another Warblade might prefer a buffing Bard. But all of them would love a Wizard who can keep his enemies from running away.
boozerker 10-06-07, 01:02 PM	Generally, the ToB classes are not more powerful. They're just more flexible. Imagine a Fighter who can change half his Fighter bonus feats between each fight. He'll never be better than any other Fighter, but he'll be able to explore more tactics and he'll never be irrelevant. MortonStromgal didn't say more powerful, they just outshine normal classes. And by your description, it sounds like they do -- by never being irrelevant..
InkBlot 10-06-07, 01:23 PM	1. I wasn't arguing. There are lots of ways to outshine someone. The ToB classes can outshine the core melee classes by being more fun to play. But "more fun to play" is subjective. There are people who find the core classes more fun to play. 2. Not being irrelevant is not the same thing as always outshining everyone else. The Bard is always relevant. The bonuses from Bardic music always help. When was the last time you heard of a Bard outshining a Wizard? "Always" and "never" are both hyperbole. I admit I shouldn't be using them. Even an Adept is more relevant than a Bard if the Bard is stuck inside an area of Silence or in an Antimagic Field. Also, on a round-to-round basis one character may outshine another. One round the Rogue one-hit-kills the boss monster with massive damage, and on another round the Wizard takes out half a dozen minions with evard's black tentacles. 3. My metaphor was only a metaphor. There are important differences between Warblades and 'Fighters who can swap out half their feats inbetween fights." The biggest one is that Warblades can only use each maneuver once before recovering. The devil is in the details.
Savras 10-06-07, 01:49 PM	Well, the ToB classes multiclass extremely well. Your initiator level increases by 1/2 for every non-martial-adept class level you have. Initiator level also isn't as important as caster level, so losing a little isn't as bad. And boosts, counters, and stances don't take away your actions from doing what your other class levels let you do. Please correct me if I am wrong, but these "effective initiator levels" count only for purpose of the highest level manuavers you gain, and not for any other purpose (like gaining new manouvers, stances and so on, or damage done by manouvers). If you could state book and page number, that'd be great. My information is from (surprise) Tome of Battle, pg. 39. Fillen danke, Savras
InkBlot 10-06-07, 03:39 PM	It counts for everything that initiator level normally counts for. That includes what level stances/maneuvers you can learn and how much damage certain maneuvers do. Initiator level never determines when you learn a new maneuver/stance. You learn a new maneuver or stance when your class table indicates you do, not according to initiator level. Initiator level and your class levels are seperate things. It's just like how your BAB and your class levels are different things. It's just like how your caster level and your class levels are different things.
Savras 10-06-07, 04:07 PM	See, I got confused because caster level usually comes hand in hand with number of spells per day, at all "caster" classes (Wiz, Sor, Clr, Drd). Thanks! Savras
Jaxgaret 10-06-07, 04:58 PM	What do you mean by "go well with?" Do you want classes that multiclass well with the Crusader, Swordsage, and Warblade? Do you want classes that can help the Crusader, Swordsage, and Warblade in a party? QFT. What exactly are you asking for, Morton?
bkdubs123 10-06-07, 05:22 PM	Judging by his use of language I am going to assume that he is asking not for what classes multiclass well with the ToB class, nor that he needs an education on what party roles the ToB classes represent. I am going to assume that he is merely asking, "What classes are less redundant, and less outshined by the ToB classes than the standard base classes?" In other words he wants to know what other classes are reasonably on par with the ToB classes in terms of power, flexibility, and fun factor. (At least that's my guess.)
rampant 10-06-07, 05:56 PM	I was kind of thinking he was asking about what classes worked well with tob classes as far as party composition. So going from that. Dragon shaman offer cool boosting auras, a nifty breath weapon, and healing. Making them Ideal to work with swordsages because they can (potencialy) do energy damage besides fire, heal your d8 HD butt, and your evasion lets him drop his breath weapon on a cluster of baddies and giving you a decent chance to get off scot free. Plus swordsages often dump charisma, meaning a dragon shaman takes over face duty.
Kresalak 10-06-07, 07:45 PM	No, Dragon Shamans are useless and their very existence makes me cry actual tears. The ToB classes are about on par with a Rogue who doesn't know the tricks of his class, or maybe a Dread Necromancer who does something. I don't know, I haven't read that book in forever. A Sorcerer who doesn't pick the ZOMGAWESOME spells might also qualify. A good party on the ToB level might be Rogue, Warblade, Sorcerer, Favored Soul. Can't compare to Well Played Rogue, Cleric, Druid, Wizard, but nothing can.
Necroramo 10-06-07, 11:45 PM	Just look at the CharOps guides!
Kresalak 10-06-07, 11:59 PM	No, that is a bad idea. CharOp will teach you how to make some 10 classed piece of **** that can't actually do anything other than have numbers that seem vaguely impressive, and who still just can't compete in any real game.
LoneFlame 10-07-07, 12:12 AM	I can't say much for Multiclassing(especially prestige classes, which ToB doesn't have enough of in comparison to caster prestiges), but in a party, an average Warblade is better than an average Fighter in melee, but sucks at range, so Warblade would work well with some sort of ranged guy, like a Ranger or Ranged Fighter. A Warblade gestalted with Ranger or Ranged Fighter is a complete martial death machine, thoroughly hurting people in melee and dominating them at range, too. Swordsage is like an anime ninja and works well with others, but lacks something in the whole Trapfinding aspect. Gestalt it with Rogue and that's a pretty mean character, capable of all kinds of fluffy ninja/assassin slaughter. Crusader is like Paladin(and its variants in Unearthed Arcana). In fact, if you want to play a Paladin without a mount, you should just play a Crusader instead, cause without the mount, Paladin is nothing. Crusader goes with anything that doesn't conflict with the character's ideals. And all classes go well with casters(except Mage Slayer/Anti-caster builds), so yeah.
Jaxgaret 10-07-07, 03:22 AM	So I really like the 3 base clases presented in the tome of battle but I think they outshine the normal classes (at leased in cool factor) what classes go well with the 3 presented in this book? Please include what book the class is found in and the publisher :D thanks! I was kind of thinking he was asking about what classes worked well with tob classes as far as party composition. So going from that. Well then, if you're looking for new "cool" classes to replace the iconic Fighter/Rogue/Cleric/Wizard, including ToB, here's my suggested party and sourcebooks: Marshal2/PounceVariantBarbarian2/Crusader16 -- Miniatures Handbook/Complete Champion/ToB The face of the party - whether for diplomacy or for beating them in. Factotum16/Warblade4 or Artificer20 -- Dungeonscape/ToB or Eberron Campaign Setting Skillmonkey extraordinaire with an interesting blend of combat utility, or overall powerhouse. Archivist20 or SpiritShaman20 -- Heroes of Horror or Complete Divine Two divine classes with new, different, versatile mechanics. Bard7/Crusader2/JPH1/SublimeChord2/JadePhoenixMage8 -- ToB/Complete Arcane An interesting take on the traditional gish.
MortonStromgal 10-07-07, 12:27 PM	Thank you everyone for your posts, I will attempt to clarify... I am looking for other base classes that my group would be interested. I am not looking for what roles they fill or multi-classing. Maybe a bit of situation will help, 6 PCs have tome of battle sitting on the table and everyone wants 1 of the 3 classes presented and has no interest in one of phb classes. The fighter/rogues players see it as cool options every level and the caster classes cheer as D&D come up to every other RPG by not having spells per day. I know their are some neat base classes out their somewhere in OGL land, I was just hoping someone could say I like book X made by Y. Its got some neat base classes. Its not about power level its about fun, if you know of a book with a farmer class and its downright fun well then suggest it. Thanks again
bkdubs123 10-07-07, 02:13 PM	The Factotum from Dungeonscape (WotC). The Beguiler from Player's Handbook II (WotC). The Warlock from Complete Arcane (WotC) or even better The Dragonfire Adept from Dragon Magic (WotC). The Incarnate or The Totemist from Magic of Incarnum (WotC). And now for a change of pace: The Blade Binder from my Tome of Magic Expansion Project - It's 100% playable now even though there will be more on it to come! It's a combat oriented Binder that binds vestiges to his weapon to gain "supernatural strikes." It ends up with a rather Tome of Battle feel to it but with an entirely different flavor. You should check it out with so many Tome of Battle fans in the group!
RadicalTaoist 10-07-07, 05:42 PM	No, that is a bad idea. CharOp will teach you how to make some 10 classed piece of **** that can't actually do anything other than have numbers that seem vaguely impressive, and who still just can't compete in any real game. Not if you ask us right. No false accusations, please. It pisses me off when we get this false bad rep on the rest of the boards.
Kresalak 10-07-07, 08:47 PM	My actual complaint there is that your characters are never any good; all they do is have viscerally impressive numbers.
RadicalTaoist 10-08-07, 12:18 PM	Those would be the record-holding builds; we've moved most of them to the Theoretical Optimization boards. Would you like links to builds with actual practical use in real play?
Einvaldurinn_mikli 10-08-07, 05:04 PM	Those would be the record-holding builds; we've moved most of them to the Theoretical Optimization boards. Would you like links to builds with actual practical use in real play? He's saying that your builds can't actually compete. That they don't play the same game so to speak, referencing the Tomes by Frank and K.
RadicalTaoist 10-08-07, 07:54 PM	He's saying that your builds can't actually compete. That they don't play the same game so to speak, referencing the Tomes by Frank and K. Actually, the reason for that is a lot of CO regulars fine the characters Frank and K consider balanced - say, human transmuter Wizard straight-classed - to be on the overpowered side of the spectrum. A lot of F&K's material rubs CO regulars the wrong way since it is designed for play with builds most would consider too strong for their games - like the Killer Shadowcraft Gnome, the Planar Shepherd, the Cheater of Mystra, the Supermount halfling, Chuck the Hulking Whirler, the Chrono-Legionnaire, and so on down the line. We actually prefer, on the whole and by the large, characters a bit under that power level for more of a tactical challenge. I for one have a record of three immediate ban responses from various groups when people tried to use my builds in actual play*, and would rather make stuff people can use for longer periods. First was my halfling boomerang thrower concept, which was basically combining synergy between Power Throw, the Master Thrower's Weak Spot trick, and a bunch of goodies halfling boomerang throwers can pick up like Boomerang Daze. The result was a boomerang who could in a full attack smack up to sixteen opponents (or two opponents eight times each) with damage output not far below twinked ranging barbarians and in addition other goodies along with stunning on each hit with a 40~ fort save DC to negate, tripping at range, and so on. It was...either AviLazar or carnivore who tried to use it in game and had it banned after one combat. Second was my Demon Arrow psionic archery trick. Psionic manifesters can change shape into Arrow Demons a deal earlier than their arcane counterparts, and have other buff powers that make the archery trick easier too; sun elves were the optimal race for this. The result was epic-level archery (doubling shots and 8+ attacks on a full attack with Colossal arrows) at levels 8-10. I forget the name of the poster who brought my build to a 10th level arena, but after insta-KOing his first opponent on the second round of combat, he was informed that "powergamers are not welcome here" and had to accept a -10 handicap penalty on all attack and damage rolls his character made (AC and saves too) to stay in the competition. Third was my Tashalatora warmind monk. I also forget who used it in real play; they reported playing alongside two optimized builds (one of whom was a spiked-chain wielding Duskblade/Jade Phoenix Mage who exploited the Aura of Chaos stance to near triple his d4-based damage output; these were not weak characters). After dominating a single combat and tying down two major melee opponents single handedly, the monk went on through the rest of the session a strong force. They quit that game and rolled new characters at the end of the session because they felt my build was overshadowing everyone.
Kresalak 10-09-07, 01:14 PM	Here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=883706) you have a build that locks down people in melee range and doesn't let them move. At level 20. With a ton of specialized gear. I'm not sure why people think that's good, because spellcasters have been doing that from level 1 and at 20 your opposition is a Balor who summons another Balor and locks everyone in a 40 foot radius from taking any actions at all. Or a Pit Fiend who looks are your anti-magic torc and then just melees you to death. Really, the whole board boils down to "at 20th level I can do something vaguely appropriate for 10th level but with higher numbers."
Ecalsneerg 10-09-07, 02:52 PM	Here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=883706) you have a build that locks down people in melee range and doesn't let them move. At level 20. With a ton of specialized gear. I'm not sure why people think that's good, because spellcasters have been doing that from level 1 and at 20 your opposition is a Balor who summons another Balor and locks everyone in a 40 foot radius from taking any actions at all. Or a Pit Fiend who looks are your anti-magic torc and then just melees you to death. Really, the whole board boils down to "at 20th level I can do something vaguely appropriate for 10th level but with higher numbers." That's what they enjoy. Nobody's forcing you to do it.
Eyedol 10-09-07, 03:58 PM	Here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=883706) you have a build that locks down people in melee range and doesn't let them move. At level 20. With a ton of specialized gear. I'm not sure why people think that's good, because spellcasters have been doing that from level 1 and at 20 your opposition is a Balor who summons another Balor and locks everyone in a 40 foot radius from taking any actions at all. Or a Pit Fiend who looks are your anti-magic torc and then just melees you to death. Really, the whole board boils down to "at 20th level I can do something vaguely appropriate for 10th level but with higher numbers." Hmm. I look forward to your straight 20 Fighter lock build then. I like the idea.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 10-09-07, 06:03 PM	Big post. I know. I prefer playing that way as well. I've lurked moar on the CO boards.That's what he meant though (or so it seemed to me).
Ultima0071 10-09-07, 06:06 PM	The Fighter goes well with any of them. But, because your players are so picky, I'l have to give you some other classes. Well, you can always "boost" your classes with some Dragon Magic. Though, I'm pretty sure your guys don't all want to be dragons. Whatever though. Warmage is a great base class. It also fits in pretty nicely with Tomb of Battle.
windscar18 10-09-07, 06:07 PM	Here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=883706) you have a build that locks down people in melee range and doesn't let them move. At level 20. With a ton of specialized gear. I'm not sure why people think that's good, because spellcasters have been doing that from level 1 and at 20 your opposition is a Balor who summons another Balor and locks everyone in a 40 foot radius from taking any actions at all. Or a Pit Fiend who looks are your anti-magic torc and then just melees you to death. Really, the whole board boils down to "at 20th level I can do something vaguely appropriate for 10th level but with higher numbers." :rolleyes: Please, talk more. I'd like to hear you complain about everything cause "Casters can do it more easily". Show me a build from you really think is strong, one that proves that you can do the Character Optimization job and puts the so-called terrible Character Optimization board to shame. Seriously, how about taking your little whiny complaint and actually PROVE you know what you're talking about without using the age old "Casters can do it better." Sure. Casters can do it better. A Warrior does 1 million damage, the caster does 2 million. The caster does it better. The warrior is still good. What's your point? Now, for the actual question being asked here, there is no particular "best class" here, but, depending on your build, fighters are notorious. I've found that with certain builds, Barbarian does well as well. Swashbuckler for Int builds work for 3 levels. That's about the first three I can think of.
bkdubs123 10-09-07, 06:54 PM	What the hell? Seriously guys, take this personal argument away from this guy's post and into private messaging. As an aside: I hope we've provided you with all of the classes we feel are on par with the Tome of Battle classes in many different scales. I'd say I'd agree with every class that has been suggested thus far. I do hope you'll consider my Blade Binder however (yes, yes, its a plug, but it really would fit in quite well)!
windscar18 10-09-07, 06:59 PM	Yeah, I suppose I got out of line right there, and I apologize. I think that it's a better idea to find out the role of your Tome of Battle class than actually give a general list. For example, I could list Psychic Warrior as a good match for Crusader if I were playing a lockdown build, despite it being a not as good of a match for a Warblade damage dealer.
aelryinth 10-09-07, 09:12 PM	Here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=883706) you have a build that locks down people in melee range and doesn't let them move. At level 20. With a ton of specialized gear. I'm not sure why people think that's good, because spellcasters have been doing that from level 1 and at 20 your opposition is a Balor who summons another Balor and locks everyone in a 40 foot radius from taking any actions at all. Or a Pit Fiend who looks are your anti-magic torc and then just melees you to death. Really, the whole board boils down to "at 20th level I can do something vaguely appropriate for 10th level but with higher numbers." ANother caster lover. Ignoring the fact he can pull his Stand Still out before 10th level, and can just do it more and more often then a caster at any level (the 8 AM to 8:05 AM wizard). The build actually matures around 16. And most of the 'custom magic item' is whining about a torc of anti-magic. The build actually uses To9S to do what it does, and is fully mature at 16, not 20. Most of the magic items are there to overcome fighter weaknesses, and you have 5 or 6 optional feats if you don't want the spec tree. Lockdown contributes early,often, and is a good well-rounded Fighter build. There's also links on the first page to a Warblade build to accomplish the same kind of thing if you are more into manuvers. There was a guy who postd a paladin/sorc gish build based around using Thunderlance, but he based his build on Wraithstrike usage, which is going to tip too many nerf bats, so I didn't link to it. ================================= As for synergy, Swordsage goes well with rogues; both crusader and warblade go well with bards if using White Raven; Paladin and Crusader kind of overlap, but can stack, too; barbarians and warblades make a nasty combo; and so forth. ===Aelryinth