Classes That I Don't Understand Why They Exist [Archive] - Wizards Community

Classes That I Don't Understand Why They Exist [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Staple
03-21-08, 02:00 AM So I've been thumbing through a few books lately, and some classes struck me as being embarrassingly off the power curve. Some of them are too strong, some too weak, and some of them are just weird. Can anyone explain why any or all of these classes exist?

First the powerful ones:

Sublime Chord (Complete Arcane)
A high level (can't be taken before level 11) that grants half Bardic Music progression, a few new uses for Bardic Music, less base attack, and most importantly, access to Sorceror/Wizard spells up to 9th level. Now, the Chord is behind the Wizard for when he gains spells, but he still has all his Bard abilities (including casting in armor) on top of those spells. This just seems like a ridiculously powerful class.

Jade Phoenix Mage (Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords)
This is the one that gets held up all the time in my circle as the unnecessarily powerful class. It grants 8 levels of Arcane casting, full base attack, and a progression of maneuvers, as well as full Initiator level progression. Oh yeah, it's capstone ability also lets it blow itself for 20d6 damage, completely healing itself, once each week. The class certainly has its drawbacks; d6 hit dice, only 1 good save, and the only caveat to defense is a stance that can't be entered until the second round of combat and only grants +2 AC. On the other hand, this kicks the butt of Eldritch Knight, which doesn't give ANY bonuses to defense, and Spellsword, which doesn't give maneuvers and is three levels of casting behind.

Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage)
This is another favorite on the Really Broken Prestige Classes list. I think the problem with this one is that it has 3 very attractive traits: minimal entry requirements (an elf wizard can get in by being level 10 and taking Combat Casting), full casting progression, and good hit dice/base attack. The class features aren't bad, either. This is another class that makes the other Arcane/Fighter classes seem pathetic, and I'm not sure why it's allowed to be so good.

Illithid Slayer (Expanded Psionics Handbook)
Illithid Slayer is the only officially released Psionic class with full base attack. Period. On top of this, it gets 9/10 manifesting progression and a slew of good abilities that work against everything, not just Illithids. The problem with this class is that while it's thematically supposed to about killing Illithids, a player could take all 10 levels of this, never see an Illithid, and still be the most powerful character in the party.

Ruby Knight Vindicator (Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords)
A combination Cleric/Martial Adept; essentially, both classes that make traditional fighters seem inadequate, Ruby Knight Vindicator isn't hard to make crushingly powerful. True, it can be taken with Paladin, but Divine Grace and Aura of Courage are about the only reason (since the missing BAB and hit points can be made up with by a single casting of Divine Power). In addition, it has what are essentially 2 forms of spellcasting that both function in heavy armor.

And now the weak ones (NOTE: I'm deliberately leaving out the DMG prestige classes, as I feel they were meant as a starting point, not as an average):

Fist of the Forest (Complete Champion)
Not an inherently bad class; actually, it's rather good. The only problem is that its RP requirements border on crippling; you can't ever sleep inside or buy food--doing either more than twice a month makes you lose all class features for a minimum of thirty days.

Shining Blade of Heironeous (Complete Divine)
For starters, its entry requirements are ridiculous; A Paladin can't enter until level 8 because of the Will Save requirement, while a Cleric has to wait until 10th level for the BAB requirement. The class only grants half spell progression, has specific +1, +2, and +4 weapon bonuses as its only class features (which are limited to rounds per day in use and require a standard action to invoke), and neither advances level dependent abilities (such as Domain powers) nor allows Paladins to take more levels in Paladin. Sadly, this class in untouched in the Complete Divine errata, so it's not even a case of a typo.

Hunter of the Dead and company (Complete Warrior and just about everything else)
If Illitihid Slayer is the "nemesis" class that still kicks butt without fighting its nemesis, the others are the opposite. Hunter of the Dead is a prime example, as a class that can do almost nothing when not around its foe. Whether it's the Undead centered class features or the spell list that doesn't do much of anything to living targets, Hunter of the Dead is essentially an NPC class.

Shugenja (Complete Divine)
This class just plain angers me. It's not a prestige. It seems that Shugenja willingly takes on multiple drawbacks, but then gains additional drawbacks rather than strengths. It's a divine caster, but has no default armor proficiency. It has a decent spell list, but any Shugenja is automatically excluded for 1/4 of it, and the player doesn't even get to choose which segment is removed. On top of this, it has a arcane caster's base attack, and arcane caster's hit die, and one class feature other than spellcasting (and that requires multiple rounds to use). Basically, it's not hard to make a Sorceror that is hands down better than a Shugenja.

And the weird ones:

Legacy Champion (Weapons of Legacy): Basically, this one I dislike because of its stupid rules interactions with Hellfire Warlock. It's "+1 to class features" lets a Hellfire Warlock (Fiendish Codex II) progress his Hellfire Blast further than it should go under some rules interpretation. Oh, and it's a class about having a really cool sword, which doesn't seem to be worth it to me.

Ardent Dilletante (Planar Handbook): It's a PrC that you literally must qualify for 4 separate times. Furthermore, it eventually requires 2 types of casting while only advancing one, and has abilities that seems to be chosen at random.
archerpwr
03-21-08, 02:19 AM Sublime Chord-WotC's patch for bards
JPM-I consider this a very weak gish PrC. Devoted spirit isn't worth 3 CL.
AC-Pretty nice. Still requires a cruddy feat to enter.
Slayer-Costs ML and a feat. Balanced well.
RKV-Welcome to the club, but you are missing the real reason it's broken.

FotF-CO had a great time with this. The RP requirements are nothing a 3rd level ranger that is stingy wouldn't do anyway though.
Awesome_Dude
03-21-08, 03:03 AM Shining Blade of Heironeous (Complete Divine)
For starters, its entry requirements are ridiculous; A Paladin can't enter until level 8 because of the Will Save requirement, while a Cleric has to wait until 10th level for the BAB requirement. The class only grants half spell progression, has specific +1, +2, and +4 weapon bonuses as its only class features (which are limited to rounds per day in use and require a standard action to invoke), and neither advances level dependent abilities (such as Domain powers) nor allows Paladins to take more levels in Paladin. Sadly, this class in untouched in the Complete Divine errata, so it's not even a case of a typo.
Oh yeah. The Shining Blade is pretty much the biggest LOLclass ever.
Nephlite
03-21-08, 09:18 AM Oh yeah. The Shining Blade is pretty much the biggest LOLclass ever.

What about Storm Deciple in Complete Psionics?
3/5th manifester progression, resist electric 15, thunderblade (grants weapon thundering from DMG), shocking aura: within 15 feet ally/your weapons deal extra +1 electric.
Stormwalker: yoiu can walk therough storms at regular speed,...specialized ability that almosty never maters for the win!

Requiresmeants: +5 BAB, any choatic, religion 8, and enegy.natural world mantle
So only Ardent/Divine Mind can enter. Both have 3/4th bab.
risner
03-21-08, 09:32 AM Sublime Chord (Complete Arcane)
Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage)
Fist of the Forest (Complete Champion)
Shugenja (Complete Divine)
Ardent Dilletante (Planar Handbook)

Sublime is not as powerful as you think, since it is made for Bards (a generally sub par casting class.)

Abjurant Champion is a nice class, but as powerful as you suggest.

Fist of the Forest should not be in the weak column, since it is not even remotely what you should consider weak.

Shugenja qualifies for Hexer (MotF.) It has an interesting number of Wizard only spells as divine.

Ardent Dilletante loses two caster levels (20th has at most 18th level casting), but gains two amazing abilities. 1) three Bonus feats not bound by any restrictions (so a 10th Ardent Dilletante at Character Level 20 has 10 "character" feats not 7 like all other characters. 2) The 10th level abilities is awesome combined with BoED "you die" spells, since you die but don't lose experience when resurrected.
The_Shaman
03-21-08, 11:15 AM What about Storm Deciple in Complete Psionics?
3/5th manifester progression, resist electric 15, thunderblade (grants weapon thundering from DMG), shocking aura: within 15 feet ally/your weapons deal extra +1 electric.
Stormwalker: yoiu can walk therough storms at regular speed,...specialized ability that almosty never maters for the win!

Requiresmeants: +5 BAB, any choatic, religion 8, and enegy.natural world mantle
So only Ardent/Divine Mind can enter. Both have 3/4th bab.

It's only five levels, at least. I think the only good part was being able to hit 16 BAB with an Ardent or Divine mind, if you can't/don't care about going into Slayer and Sanctified mind. Don't get me wrong, it's still c...y, but not as much as the SBoH.

@Staple: allow me to correct you. Slayer is not the only full-BAB psionic PrC to advance another progression, the Sanctified mind from Lords of Madness also does that. Also, the original form of the Slayer had a serious RP requirement (being part of an illithid-hunting party) and a fixed FE.

Sublime chord... It's quite good for bards, and I definitely like it, but broken it isn't. It requires a lot of ranks in sub-par skills and still doesn't catch up to sorcerers. I think a sorcerer who gets into Virtuoso (possibly through another PrC) will be a better caster than a bard/sublime chord, and maybe a better singer, too.

Can I get a suggestion for a class which should be banned, taken out of the books, and forgotten? Celebrant of Sharess, PGtF. Inane RP requirements, supposedly martial bent with poor BAB, likely MAD, and nearly completely going against its fluff. I like the deity, but that's a freaking embarassment.
kriskey
03-21-08, 12:02 PM I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I actually agree with most of the OP's points.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Staple 03-21-08, 02:00 AM	So I've been thumbing through a few books lately, and some classes struck me as being embarrassingly off the power curve. Some of them are too strong, some too weak, and some of them are just weird. Can anyone explain why any or all of these classes exist? First the powerful ones: Sublime Chord (Complete Arcane) A high level (can't be taken before level 11) that grants half Bardic Music progression, a few new uses for Bardic Music, less base attack, and most importantly, access to Sorceror/Wizard spells up to 9th level. Now, the Chord is behind the Wizard for when he gains spells, but he still has all his Bard abilities (including casting in armor) on top of those spells. This just seems like a ridiculously powerful class. Jade Phoenix Mage (Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords) This is the one that gets held up all the time in my circle as the unnecessarily powerful class. It grants 8 levels of Arcane casting, full base attack, and a progression of maneuvers, as well as full Initiator level progression. Oh yeah, it's capstone ability also lets it blow itself for 20d6 damage, completely healing itself, once each week. The class certainly has its drawbacks; d6 hit dice, only 1 good save, and the only caveat to defense is a stance that can't be entered until the second round of combat and only grants +2 AC. On the other hand, this kicks the butt of Eldritch Knight, which doesn't give ANY bonuses to defense, and Spellsword, which doesn't give maneuvers and is three levels of casting behind. Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage) This is another favorite on the Really Broken Prestige Classes list. I think the problem with this one is that it has 3 very attractive traits: minimal entry requirements (an elf wizard can get in by being level 10 and taking Combat Casting), full casting progression, and good hit dice/base attack. The class features aren't bad, either. This is another class that makes the other Arcane/Fighter classes seem pathetic, and I'm not sure why it's allowed to be so good. Illithid Slayer (Expanded Psionics Handbook) Illithid Slayer is the only officially released Psionic class with full base attack. Period. On top of this, it gets 9/10 manifesting progression and a slew of good abilities that work against everything, not just Illithids. The problem with this class is that while it's thematically supposed to about killing Illithids, a player could take all 10 levels of this, never see an Illithid, and still be the most powerful character in the party. Ruby Knight Vindicator (Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords) A combination Cleric/Martial Adept; essentially, both classes that make traditional fighters seem inadequate, Ruby Knight Vindicator isn't hard to make crushingly powerful. True, it can be taken with Paladin, but Divine Grace and Aura of Courage are about the only reason (since the missing BAB and hit points can be made up with by a single casting of Divine Power). In addition, it has what are essentially 2 forms of spellcasting that both function in heavy armor. And now the weak ones (NOTE: I'm deliberately leaving out the DMG prestige classes, as I feel they were meant as a starting point, not as an average): Fist of the Forest (Complete Champion) Not an inherently bad class; actually, it's rather good. The only problem is that its RP requirements border on crippling; you can't ever sleep inside or buy food--doing either more than twice a month makes you lose all class features for a minimum of thirty days. Shining Blade of Heironeous (Complete Divine) For starters, its entry requirements are ridiculous; A Paladin can't enter until level 8 because of the Will Save requirement, while a Cleric has to wait until 10th level for the BAB requirement. The class only grants half spell progression, has specific +1, +2, and +4 weapon bonuses as its only class features (which are limited to rounds per day in use and require a standard action to invoke), and neither advances level dependent abilities (such as Domain powers) nor allows Paladins to take more levels in Paladin. Sadly, this class in untouched in the Complete Divine errata, so it's not even a case of a typo. Hunter of the Dead and company (Complete Warrior and just about everything else) If Illitihid Slayer is the "nemesis" class that still kicks butt without fighting its nemesis, the others are the opposite. Hunter of the Dead is a prime example, as a class that can do almost nothing when not around its foe. Whether it's the Undead centered class features or the spell list that doesn't do much of anything to living targets, Hunter of the Dead is essentially an NPC class. Shugenja (Complete Divine) This class just plain angers me. It's not a prestige. It seems that Shugenja willingly takes on multiple drawbacks, but then gains additional drawbacks rather than strengths. It's a divine caster, but has no default armor proficiency. It has a decent spell list, but any Shugenja is automatically excluded for 1/4 of it, and the player doesn't even get to choose which segment is removed. On top of this, it has a arcane caster's base attack, and arcane caster's hit die, and one class feature other than spellcasting (and that requires multiple rounds to use). Basically, it's not hard to make a Sorceror that is hands down better than a Shugenja. And the weird ones: Legacy Champion (Weapons of Legacy): Basically, this one I dislike because of its stupid rules interactions with Hellfire Warlock. It's "+1 to class features" lets a Hellfire Warlock (Fiendish Codex II) progress his Hellfire Blast further than it should go under some rules interpretation. Oh, and it's a class about having a really cool sword, which doesn't seem to be worth it to me. Ardent Dilletante (Planar Handbook): It's a PrC that you literally must qualify for 4 separate times. Furthermore, it eventually requires 2 types of casting while only advancing one, and has abilities that seems to be chosen at random.
archerpwr 03-21-08, 02:19 AM	Sublime Chord-WotC's patch for bards JPM-I consider this a very weak gish PrC. Devoted spirit isn't worth 3 CL. AC-Pretty nice. Still requires a cruddy feat to enter. Slayer-Costs ML and a feat. Balanced well. RKV-Welcome to the club, but you are missing the real reason it's broken. FotF-CO had a great time with this. The RP requirements are nothing a 3rd level ranger that is stingy wouldn't do anyway though.
Awesome_Dude 03-21-08, 03:03 AM	Shining Blade of Heironeous (Complete Divine) For starters, its entry requirements are ridiculous; A Paladin can't enter until level 8 because of the Will Save requirement, while a Cleric has to wait until 10th level for the BAB requirement. The class only grants half spell progression, has specific +1, +2, and +4 weapon bonuses as its only class features (which are limited to rounds per day in use and require a standard action to invoke), and neither advances level dependent abilities (such as Domain powers) nor allows Paladins to take more levels in Paladin. Sadly, this class in untouched in the Complete Divine errata, so it's not even a case of a typo. Oh yeah. The Shining Blade is pretty much the biggest LOLclass ever.
Nephlite 03-21-08, 09:18 AM	Oh yeah. The Shining Blade is pretty much the biggest LOLclass ever. What about Storm Deciple in Complete Psionics? 3/5th manifester progression, resist electric 15, thunderblade (grants weapon thundering from DMG), shocking aura: within 15 feet ally/your weapons deal extra +1 electric. Stormwalker: yoiu can walk therough storms at regular speed,...specialized ability that almosty never maters for the win! Requiresmeants: +5 BAB, any choatic, religion 8, and enegy.natural world mantle So only Ardent/Divine Mind can enter. Both have 3/4th bab.
risner 03-21-08, 09:32 AM	Sublime Chord (Complete Arcane) Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage) Fist of the Forest (Complete Champion) Shugenja (Complete Divine) Ardent Dilletante (Planar Handbook) Sublime is not as powerful as you think, since it is made for Bards (a generally sub par casting class.) Abjurant Champion is a nice class, but as powerful as you suggest. Fist of the Forest should not be in the weak column, since it is not even remotely what you should consider weak. Shugenja qualifies for Hexer (MotF.) It has an interesting number of Wizard only spells as divine. Ardent Dilletante loses two caster levels (20th has at most 18th level casting), but gains two amazing abilities. 1) three Bonus feats not bound by any restrictions (so a 10th Ardent Dilletante at Character Level 20 has 10 "character" feats not 7 like all other characters. 2) The 10th level abilities is awesome combined with BoED "you die" spells, since you die but don't lose experience when resurrected.
The_Shaman 03-21-08, 11:15 AM	What about Storm Deciple in Complete Psionics? 3/5th manifester progression, resist electric 15, thunderblade (grants weapon thundering from DMG), shocking aura: within 15 feet ally/your weapons deal extra +1 electric. Stormwalker: yoiu can walk therough storms at regular speed,...specialized ability that almosty never maters for the win! Requiresmeants: +5 BAB, any choatic, religion 8, and enegy.natural world mantle So only Ardent/Divine Mind can enter. Both have 3/4th bab. It's only five levels, at least. I think the only good part was being able to hit 16 BAB with an Ardent or Divine mind, if you can't/don't care about going into Slayer and Sanctified mind. Don't get me wrong, it's still c...y, but not as much as the SBoH. @Staple: allow me to correct you. Slayer is not the only full-BAB psionic PrC to advance another progression, the Sanctified mind from Lords of Madness also does that. Also, the original form of the Slayer had a serious RP requirement (being part of an illithid-hunting party) and a fixed FE. Sublime chord... It's quite good for bards, and I definitely like it, but broken it isn't. It requires a lot of ranks in sub-par skills and still doesn't catch up to sorcerers. I think a sorcerer who gets into Virtuoso (possibly through another PrC) will be a better caster than a bard/sublime chord, and maybe a better singer, too. Can I get a suggestion for a class which should be banned, taken out of the books, and forgotten? Celebrant of Sharess, PGtF. Inane RP requirements, supposedly martial bent with poor BAB, likely MAD, and nearly completely going against its fluff. I like the deity, but that's a freaking embarassment.
kriskey 03-21-08, 12:02 PM	I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I actually agree with most of the OP's points.