Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pddisc 07-03-04, 07:35 AM	Hello. I've finally finished creating a form of D&D that doesn't use classes, as you could probably tell from the topic subject. It means you can pick whatever abilities you want from any of the basic classes... it deals with the problems with multiclassing, lets you swap out unwanted abilities to add in different ones, lets you do whatever you want to - within reason. It isn't like D&D normally is, which is heavily structured and has checks and balances all over the place. It instead relies heavily on DM and player interaction during character creation, and although can take a bit of time to adjust, after playing with it for a few days, you can make characters just as fast with it as with normal D&D. It is easily open to abuse, and this is kind of only the beta stage, so not everything will be in the right place or balanced quite right, but it works. It's not for people who are utterly content with how D&D plays... but I wasn't entirely content. Please have a look, I've worked reasonably hard on this, and if any of you can offer comments or point out bits I've missed (for example, I have this nagging feeling that I haven't made it properly clear that spellcaster levels count as abilities) then please say something. Cheers, Paul. Classless system (http://uk.msnusers.com/SBMHeadquarters/Documents/Classless%20system.htm)
Blakk_Magemaster 07-03-04, 11:55 AM	It looks way too confusing and complicated.:confused: Can you post it on the WoC message board so that i can look at it more readily. That link wont let me by so i had to go searching at your headquarters, thanks!
pddisc 07-03-04, 12:07 PM	Hmm. If it won't let in non-members, I'll just put it up instead, then. I have a problem with ordinary D&D. The classes. With class skills, you are restricted to stereotypes. For example, a high dexterity fighter is unable to ever be that good at such things as tumble. With multiclassing, you easily lose BAB progression, and your saves go through the roof. Requirements for prestige classes seem inappropriate, and quite often, prestige classes themselves seem rather silly, because any character who is sufficiently like what they are trying to get into should surely have character focus rather than coincidental statistics. If the requirements are particularly harsh, all the characters going into the society come out as clones. I’m also not fond of the so-called ‘flexibility’ of sorcerers, and think that psionics appears to be far closer to what I imagine sorcery to be. There are others. Having so many little problems either means loads and loads of minor changes, or as it turns out, a classless system as a ‘fix’. And this is what I’ve done. You can play a stereotype if you wish, but equally, you can play a ninja right from level 1 (although you wouldn’t necessarily be a good one), rather than suddenly become one at level 8. You can play a charming and charismatic wizard, who never studied so hard, but can cast spells here and there. You can play a weapons expert style fighter, possessing knowledge of every weapon under the sun, or one who prefers to read text books on fighting styles of the battleaxe and hand axe, and cares about little else, and not get penalised for it in any way. This system represents a flexibility which is still missing from D&D – there is just one thing you have to remember. D&D is meant to be a role-play system. It’s almost certain that making it so loose as I have done here makes it freely open to abuse – but if you can justify what you have taken at character creation to the DM, who must take a hands-on approach here, it’s all ok. As long as you advance what you practice, and take abilities which make sense for the character, you should be fine. Most of all, D&D should be fun... and what could be more fun than having a bard-style character fascinate a crowd of onlookers, while their monkey familiar runs around cutting purse strings? Or having your quiet, calm wizard kick the living heck out of the thugs with the martial arts he picked up from some book to deal with this kind of harassment? So, how does it work? Instead of classes, each character has a primary stat, two secondary stats, and three tertiary stats. Levels are kept, because this isn't varying too far from D&D, and it's keeping most of the d20 rules, just not character classes. Whatever is your highest stat becomes primary – I suppose it’s similar to the d20 modern class system in this regard, but who you are is going to be largely based on what you are. Someone with a high intelligence is going to be far better able to focus on thought and memory tasks than on heavy lifting and running for ages, although they can also learn it. When you create your character, you spend points on skills, saves and abilities. This point system is based on the skill point system, but is used for all your character’s abilities. Looking at how most things are done in d20, you realise that they are done like skills anyway. At first level, you can have your level +3 for skills. I have just taken this to the extreme, and everything is done as your level +3. Saving throws are normally done like this. Good saves increase by +1/2, bad saves increase by +1/3. Starting good saves are multiplied by four, just like the starting skills are, so that a good save at level 1 will be +2, and a bad save starts at +1/3. They are, however, more powerful and widely used than simple skills, so cost more. Equally, special abilities cost even more, because they are the most powerful thing you can give your character. At first level, you primary stat grants 80 points, your secondary stats grant 40 points, and your tertiary stats grant 20 points. This works on the level-plus-three rule, as at subsequent levels, you gain a quarter of this. Primary grants 20, secondary grants 10, tertiary grants 5. Saving throws and skills can all be bought up to a maximum of 4, which is your level, plus 3. Equally, you can have up to four starting special abilities. Special abilities cost 12 each, and are bought with the relevant stat. Saving throws are bought at 8p for +1/2 and 4p for +1/3 with the relevant ability score. Skill points cost 1 per skill point. You can spend any stat points on a different stats skill, but everything costs twice as much, for example, an exotic weapon rank bought with intelligence points would cost 8p. This is similar to the ‘cross class’ idea, but there is no maximum for how much you can raise a cross stat skill, outside, of course, your level limit.
pddisc 07-03-04, 12:10 PM	Strength points will buy you ranks in melee weapon knowledge, at the rate of 1point=1rank for simple weapons, 2pt=1r for martial, and 4pt=1r for exotic. Someone with strength as a primary stat will know a lot of martial and simple weapons, maybe an exotic weapon, and can easily get up to +4 at first level with a large variety. However, as non-proficiency starts you at -4, this balances out at +0 at first level for weapons you've maxed out. Climb, Jump and Swim are bought with strength points, as are the abilities below: Power attack - STR 13 Cleave - Power attack Great cleave - Cleave (8 weapon ranks required to be used) Improved bullrush - Power attack Improved overrun - Power attack Improved sunder - Power attack Mounted combat - Ride 1 rank Ride-by attack - Mounted combat Spirited charge - Mounted combat, Ride-by attack Trample - Mounted combat Two-weapon fighting - DEX 15 Two-weapon defence - Two-weapon fighting Improved two-weapon fighting - DEX 17, Two-weapon fighting (10 weapon ranks required to be used) Great two-weapon fighting - DEX 19, improved two-weapon fighting (15 weapon ranks required to be used) Weapon specialisation – (8 ranks required for the weapon to be specialised) Improved weapon specialisation – (16 ranks required for the weapon to be specialised) Improved critical – (12 ranks required for the weapon to be improved) Improved shield bash – (8 ranks required for the shield to be used) Smite infidel 1/day - Strongly held belief in opposing alignment – this means that you can buy smite good, smite evil, smite law, smite chaos and so on, as long as the character has shown a strong belief. Crippling strike - 5d6 sneak attack damage Brawling (improved unarmed attack) - Non-honourable Flurry of blows - Improved unarmed strike Greater flurry - Flurry of blows (15 ranks required in unarmed) Increased unarmed damage die - Improved unarmed strike Ki strike (magic) - Martial arts (6 ranks required in unarmed) Ki strike (strong allegiance) - Martial arts (12 ranks required in unarmed) Ki strike (adamantine) - Martial arts (18 ranks required in unarmed) Weapon focus - 4 weapon ranks – this allows the character to go over their level limit by one half their level. So at 12th level, someone could have 12 + 6 (+ 3 – 4) to hit with their weapon. This replaces the +1 to hit Weapon focus normally gives. Skill focus – 4 skill ranks in a single str skill – this allows the character to go over their level limit by one half their level. So at 12th level, someone could have 12 + 6 (+ 3) in a str skill. Acrobatic - STR or DEX – you can spend both str and dex points to buy this ability. Athletic - STR Dexterity points may be spent on missile weapon knowledge, at the same rates as above for melee weapons (Simple = 1pt, Martial = 2pt, Exotic =4pt). Balance, Escape artist, Hide, Move silently, Open lock, Ride, Sleight of hand, Tumble and Use rope can be bought with dexterity points. You also probably want a reflex save, and can pick the following abilities: Point blank shot – (4 weapon ranks required to be used) Far shot - Point blank shot Precise shot - Point blank shot Improved precise shot - Precise shot (15 weapon ranks required to be used) Rapid shot - DEX 13, Point blank shot Manyshot - Rapid shot (10 weapon ranks required to be used) Dodge - DEX 13 Mobility - Dodge Spring attack - Mobility, (8 weapon ranks required to be used) Shot on the run - Mobility, Point blank shot (8 weapon ranks required to be used) Whirlwind attack - Spring attack, Combat expertise Mounted archery - Mounted combat Uncanny dodge - Reflex save +1 Improved uncanny dodge - Uncanny dodge, Reflex save +3 Evasion - Reflex save +3 Slow fall 10ft - Evasion Improved evasion - Evasion, Improved uncanny dodge, Reflex +6 Rapid reload – (4 weapon ranks required in the crossbow to be used) Combat reflexes - - Improved initiative - - Lightning reflexes - - Sneak attack - DEX 13 Opportunist - 5d6 sneak attack Trap sense +1 - - Weapon finesse – (4 weapon ranks required to be used) – this also allows finessable weapons to be bought using dex rather than str points, as well as adding dex to hit rather than str. Weapon focus - 4 weapon ranks – this allows the character to go over their level limit by one half their level. So at 12th level, someone could have 12 + 6 (+ 3 – 4) to hit with their weapon. This replaces the +1 to hit Weapon focus normally gives. Must be with a ranged weapon, unless you also have Weapon finesse. Skill focus – 4 skill ranks in a single dex skill – this allows the character to go over their level limit by one half their level. So at 12th level, someone could have 12 + 6 (+ 3) in a dex skill. Acrobatic - STR or DEX - you can spend both str and dex points to buy this ability. Agile - DEX Animal Affinity - CHA or DEX - you can spend both cha and dex points to buy this ability. Deft hands - DEX Nimble fingers - INT or DEX - you can spend both int and dex points to buy this ability. Constitution buys ranks in Concentration. You also can spend points on hp - primary characters get a d12, secondary characters get a d8, and can buy a d10 instead for 4 points, tertiary characters get a d4, and can buy a d6 for 4 points. First level hp are maxed, as usual. Fortitude saves are also under constitution. Armour skills are in here as well. With 0 ranks in armour, you have the ACP penalty on attacks and AC and so on, and none of the maximum dex bonus. With 2 ranks, you only suffer half the ACP penalty, but still have no dex bonus. With 4 ranks, you have no ACP penalty, and can use up to half the dex bonus. With 6 ranks, you get the full dex bonus, and can go onto the next type of armour. With 8 ranks you achieve mastery of the armour type, and can treat all armour of that type as if it had an ACP as 1 less. The same goes for shields. You must have light armour before medium, and medium before heavy. You must have shields before tower shields. It buys fortitude saves, and these abilities: Rage 1/day – Appropriate personality type Damage reduction 1/- - CON 15, Rage 3/day Greater rage - Rage 3/day Mighty rage - Greater rage, Rage 6/day Tireless rage - Rage 5/day Endurance - - Diehard - Endurance Purity of body - WIS 13, Appropriate personality type Improved purity of body - WIS 15, Purity of body Timeless body - WIS 19, Improved purity of body Great fortitude - - Toughness - - Combat casting - - Run - - Improved speed +10ft - CON 13 Skill focus – 4 skill ranks in (the) single con skill – this allows the character to go over their level limit by one half their level. So at 12th level, someone could have 12 + 6 (+ 3) in (the) con skill.
Blakk_Magemaster 07-03-04, 12:10 PM	Can you demonsrate a build to us. I am completely blank as to how this works?:(
pddisc 07-03-04, 12:13 PM	Intelligence points may be spent on Appraise, Craft, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Forgery, Knowledge, Search, Spellcraft, and Languages. Automatic languages are given at maximum ranks for free, but additional languages are worked out by proficiency - 2 ranks means you understand the written language, 4 ranks means a working ability with the spoken tongue, and 6 ranks means fluency. You may buy the following abilities: Combat expertise - INT 13 Improved disarm - Combat expertise Improved feint - Combat expertise Improved trip - Combat expertise Trapfinding - Search 4 ranks Skill mastery - 14 ranks in skills to be taken Item creation - 1st level spell knowledge – Includes ‘scribe scroll’ - you must learn the basics before getting proficiency with the more advanced forms of item creation. Craft wondrous item - Item creation, 2nd level spell knowledge Brew potion - Item creation, 2nd level spell knowledge Craft magic arms and armour - Item creation, 3rd level spell knowledge Craft wand - Item creation, 3rd level spell knowledge Craft rod - Item creation, 5th level spell knowledge Craft staff - Item creation, 6th level spell knowledge Forge ring - Item creation, 6th level spell knowledge Metamagic casting - 1st level spell knowledge – Includes ‘heighten spell’ – you must learn the basics before getting proficiency with the more advanced forms of metamagic. Enlarge spell - Metamagic casting Extend spell - Metamagic casting Silent spell - Metamagic casting Still spell - Metamagic casting Empower spell - Metamagic casting, 2nd level spell knowledge Maximise spell - Metamagic casting, 3rd level spell knowledge Widen spell - Metamagic casting, 3rd level spell knowledge Quicken spell - Metamagic casting, 4th level spell knowledge Spell focus - 1st level spell knowledge Greater spell focus - Spell focus Augment summoning - Spell focus (conjuration) Spell penetration - 1st level spell knowledge Greater spell penetration - Spell penetration Spell mastery - Prepared arcane spells Improved counterspell - 1st level spell knowledge Eschew materials - Prepared spells Deceitful - CHA or INT - you can spend both cha and int points to buy this ability. Diligent - INT Investigator - CHA or INT - you can spend both cha and int points to buy this ability. Magical aptitude - INT or CHA - you can spend both cha and int points to buy this ability. Nature sense - INT or WIS - you can spend both wis and int points to buy this ability. Nimble fingers - INT or DEX - you can spend both dex and int points to buy this ability. Skill focus – 4 skill ranks in a single int skill – this allows the character to go over their level limit by one half their level. So at 12th level, someone could have 12 + 6 (+ 3) in an int skill. Prepared arcane spells 1st level @ 48, rest @ 12 Intelligence based spellcasting is prepared, wizardly, spellbook-y spellcasting, and is handled the same as in normal D&D - you don't need to re-prepare uncast spells, you can leave open slots and memorise something at a later time and so on. The advancement is as the wizard in the PHB. Wisdom points are spent on Heal, Listen, Profession, Sense Motive, Spot and Survival skills. Spellcasting is either as prepared, for which you need a holy symbol for every spell, or spontaneous, for which you need a focus (some type of fetish) for spells requiring a divine focus. It buys a will save, and the following abilities: Martial arts (improved unarmed strike) - Appropriate personality type, training Deflect arrows - DEX 13, Martial arts Snatch arrows - DEX 15, Deflect arrows Stunning fist - DEX 13, WIS 13, Martial arts (10 ranks required in unarmed) Quivering palm - WIS 15, Stunning fist (18 ranks required in unarmed) Iron will - - Indomitable will - Iron will Resist nature's lure - Iron will, Wild empathy 4 ranks Still mind - Iron will Slippery mind – Still mind Wild empathy (equivalent to handle animal -3) - - Woodland stride - Wild empathy Trackless step - Woodland stride Track - - Swift tracker - Track, Survival 11 ranks Favoured terrain - Knowledge (nature) 4 ranks Improved favoured terrain - Studied culture, Knowledge (nature) 8 ranks Greater studied culture - Improved studied culture, Knowledge (nature) 12 ranks Abundant step - WIS 15, Improved evasion, Speed +40ft Trained dodging (WIS to AC) - Martial arts AC bonus +1 - Trained dodge, Will save +3/time taken Diamond soul - WIS 17, no spellcasting abilities, AC bonus +2 Empty body - WIS 19, Diamond soul, Abundant step, Still mind, Speed +60ft Perfect self - Empty body Lay on hands - Purity of body Blind-fight - - Camouflage - Hide 16 ranks, Survival 16 ranks Hide in plain sight - Hide 20 ranks Turn/Destroy undead - Non-evil alignment, prepared divine spellcasting Rebuke/Bolster undead - Non-good alignment, prepared divine spellcasting Extra turning - Turn or Rebuke undead Improved turning - Turn or Rebuke undead Domain spell selection (spontaneously cast) - Divine spellcasting Turn or destroy earth creatures - Air domain Turn or destroy air creatures - Earth domain Turn or destroy water creatures - Fire domain Turn or destroy fire creatures - Water domain Rebuke or command plant creatures - Plant domain Wild shape 1/day - Animal domain, Wild empathy 5 ranks Natural spell - Wild shape Wild shape (large) - Wild shape 3/day Wild shape (tiny) - Wild shape 4/day Wild shape (plant) - Plant domain, Wild shape 4/day Wild shape (huge) - Wild shape 5/day, Wild shape (large) Wild shape (elemental) – (relevant) Element domain, Wild shape 1/day, Wild empathy 10 ranks Wild shape (large elemental) - Wild shape (elemental) 2/day, Wild shape (large) Wild shape (huge) - Wild shape (elemental) 3/day, Wild shape (huge) Divine grace - Good, Evil, Law or Chaos domain Death touch 1/day - Death domain Smite 1/day - Destruction domain +1 caster level for healing spells - Healing domain Buy all knowledge skills as wisdom pool skills - Knowledge domain Lucky - Luck domain Use arcane items - Magic domain Protective ward - Protection domain Feat of strength - Strength domain Greater turning - Sun domain Freedom of movement - Travel domain Buy bluff, disguise and hide as wisdom pool skills - Trickery domain Buy deity’s favoured weapon as wisdom pool skill - War domain Nature sense - INT or WIS - you can spend both wis and int points to buy this ability. Negotiator - CHA or WIS - you can spend both cha and wis points to buy this ability. Self - sufficient – WIS Skill focus – 4 skill ranks in a single wis skill – this allows the character to go over their level limit by one half their level. So at 12th level, someone could have 12 + 6 (+ 3) in a wis skill. Divine spellcasting, either spontaneous or prepared 1st @ 40, rest @ 10 Divine prepared spellcasting is faith-in-a-god type spellcasting, whereas divine spontaneous spellcasting is granted through faith in yourself. You gain an extra spell slot for each domain you have, and can spontaneously cast the domain spells, rather than ‘cure’, ‘inflict’ or ‘summon nature’s ally’, although spontaneous divine casters can only have a maximum of one domain. Prepared divine is advanced as the wizard in the PHB, and spontaneous as the sorcerer (see below). Divine spellcasters also no longer have 0-level spells, the orisons. These simple tricks are more defining of the arcane spellcasters. All the spells you might want for 0-level in divine are either in the 1st level, and balanced to be there (Light is there, but extended in duration. Detect magic is the same; learning about magic is the forte of arcanists, not divinists) or just dead, because no one uses them.
pddisc 07-03-04, 12:16 PM	Charisma points are spent on Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform and Use Magic Device. Spellcasting is bought at the same rate as with intelligent spellcasting, but is spontaneous, and limited as sorcerers normally are. Abilities: Familiar - arcane spellcaster Animal companion - Wild empathy Special mount - Divine spellcaster, strong moral allegiance, Mounted Combat The special creatures you gain as permanent companions, once bought as abilities, are advanced through advancing them as a cha skill. This skill cannot exceed your level minus the level you bought the ability. If you bought the ability at 3rd level, by 6th level you would have at most 4 (3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th) ranks in it. These ranks equal your level as per the PHB. Turn/Destroy Undead - Non-evil alignment, spontaneous divine casting Rebuke/Bolster Undead - Non-good alignment, spontaneous divine casting Bardic music (equivalent to perform -3/day) - 4 ranks perform Countersong - Bardic music Fascinate - Bardic music Suggestion - Fascinate, 9 ranks perform Mass suggestion - Suggestion, 21 ranks perform Inspire courage +1 - Bardic music 2/day/+1 Inspire greatness - Inspire courage +2, 12 ranks perform Inspire heroics - Inspire greatness, 18 ranks perform Inspire competence – Bardic music, 7 ranks perform Song of freedom - Bardic music, 15 ranks perform Leadership - higher than 1st level, and a leader Aura of courage - Leadership, lawful alignment A thousand faces - Wild shape 6/day Animal Affinity - CHA or DEX - you can spend both cha and dex points to buy this ability. Deceitful - CHA or INT - you can spend both cha and int points to buy this ability. Investigator - CHA or INT - you can spend both cha and int points to buy this ability. Magical aptitude - INT or CHA - you can spend both cha and int points to buy this ability. Negotiator - CHA or WIS - you can spend both cha and wis points to buy this ability. Persuasive - CHA Skill focus – 4 skill ranks in a single cha skill – this allows the character to go over their level limit by one half their level. So at 12th level, someone could have 12 + 6 (+ 3) in a cha skill. Spontaneous arcane spells 1st 48, rest 12 Spontaneous casters do not use spell slots. They have spell points instead, and can use these to cast any of the spells they know. So, a caster who can cast up to 5th level spells can use their 70 or so spell points to cast 70 1st level spells, or 14 5th level spells. Metamagic feats simply adjust how many spell points a spell costs, so it is possible to cast an enlarged fireball at 6th level, it’ll just cost you a fair amount of points. Those with high stats gain bonus points equal to however many spells they would get. Advancing in maximum spell level known is the same in PHB; every other level, but start one lower. Number of spells known is still as PHB sorcerer, although spontaneous divine casters can learn additional spells from a domain. The progression for gaining spell points goes as thus: 1 - +2 (2) 2 - +3 (5) 3 - +4 (9) 4 - +5 (14) 5 - +6 (20) 6 - +7 (27) 7 - +8 (35) 8 - +9 (44) 9 - +10 (54) 10 - +12 (66) 11 - +14 (80) 12 - +15 (95) 13 - +17 (112) 14 - +18 (130) 15 - +19 (149) 16 - +20 (169) 17 - +21 (190) 18 - +23 (213) 19 - +24 (237) 20 - +25 (262) Also, sorcerers, since their spellcasting is tied to charisma, the force of their personality on the world, due to casting spells (forcing reality to be different), they go slightly mad. Every (10 x highest spell level) spell levels cast causes an accumulating 1% chance per spell cast that the caster will start to go mad. The effect will have some relevance to the spell - an illusion of a couple of orcs might mean that the illusions starts to follow the character everywhere they go (but only visible to them), whereas a fireball might mean that they occasionally have hallucinations of everything burning. It might also have something to do with the character themselves - someone mildly paranoid might become moreso, or an 'unsubtle' spellcaster might actually turn psychopathic. My favourite is the addiction idea, where evey time they go madder, they become more obsessed with casting spells for everything - and as such, will send them more insane faster. Boosting spells above maximum spell level known (quickened, enlarged, maximised fireball at level 6 = 11 spell points. Maximum level known = 3) causes a greater chance for insanity. They temporarily gain however many spell points they went over their maximum to be added to the chance for going mad, but these temporary insanity points decrease at the rate of 1 per day of complete bed rest. For example, Marvin, the 6th level sorcerer, has a maximum spell casting level of 3, meaning every 30 spell points he casts increases the chance per spell of madness by 1%. He has 27 spell points because of his level, plus 6 for high charisma. His past adventuring has earned him a 4% chance of madness per spell, and is 7 points too close to gaining another 1% to his madness chances. He also has a nasty facial tic when confronted by members of the opposite sex and the same species. In a lone encounter against a band of orcs who somehow see through his invisibility spell, he had to cast an enlarged, maximised fireball, costing him 7 spell points. This causes him to go up to 5% base madness, and has an additional 4% chance of madness per spell until he gets some rest. 9% chances are just too much for poor Marvin, who decides he needs a lie down – the pounding pressure in his head is getting a little too much. A 'heal' spell will return a character to complete sanity, but only a 'wish' or 'miracle' will reset the % chance of madness per spell. The above is simply a suggestion, and one I quite like. It is to balance the sorcerer’s ability to cast much more powerful spells. Madness can be replaced by mishaps, a chance of temporary paralysis after casting each spell, or even fatigue and exhaustion. I just like madness.
pddisc 07-03-04, 01:06 PM	As for making a character, I will demonstrate as below. What do you want... a 'normal' fighter? We'll say this guy has been raised to be an elite bodyguard for a high king somewhere. I'll use the 'elite' array. Primary Str 15 Secondary Dex 13 Secondary Con 14 Tertiary Int 10 Tertiary Wis 8 Tertiary Cha 12 He's only young, though, and has not yet joined the guards. He has finally finished his lessons, but has yet to prove himself in a real combat situation, although he is confident. Level 1 - Primary points 80, secondary points 40, tertiary points 20. Guy is a powerful fighter - he has trained most of his life to the art of combat, in a fairly wide selection of weapons. His strength is well beyond that of an ordinary man, and so he excels at using it in combat to his advantage. Abilities: Power attack, Cleave, Improved bullrush (12x3=36. 44 points left) Weapons - Simple: Dagger, Club, Mace (light and heavy), Longspear - 4 ranks (4x5=20. 24 points left) Martial: Short sword, Battleaxe, Longsword - 4 ranks (8x3=24. 0 points left) Guy is also fairly nimble, a fact that surprises many considering his stocky build and muscular frame. He is a competant archer, although he prefers the dance of hand to hand combat more. Weapons - Simple: Dagger (throwing), Light crossbow - 4 ranks (4x2=8. 32 points left) Martial: Shortbow, Longbow - 4 ranks (8x2=16. 16 points left) Ride - 4 ranks (12 points remaining) Reflex save +1 (4x3=12. 0 points left) Guy has tough skin, earned through long hours of torturous exercise. His girth helps fight poison, disease and the effects of starvation. He can, and does, run for hours. Upgrade HD to d10 - 4 points (36 left) Ability: Endurance - 12 points (24 left) Light armour - 6 ranks (18 left) Medium armour - 6 ranks (12 left) Fortitude save +5/6 (0 left) Guy is about as fast at picking things up as any other person, which is to say, always a little too slow. Although not an expert mathematician, a brilliant philosopher or even passable chess player, Guy has learnt enough from books to get by. Languages: Common (automatic fluency), Elvish (able speaker) - 4 ranks, Dwarvish, Orcish (able to read) - 2 ranks (12 remain) Knowledge (nobility and royalty) - 4 ranks (8 left over) Although undoubtably an able fighter, with much chance to get ahead in the world, Guy is a bit slow at noticing things others would see plainly. He has fair eyesight, when he remembers to pay attention, and to be fair to him, he does try. Spot, Listen - 4 ranks (12 remain) Will save +1 (3x4. 0 remain) Having spent most of his life being trained to fight, with his bulging muscles and tanned complexion, Guy is fairly attractive. He does, however, have no idea what to do in social situations - he is frank, honest and therefore blunt and rude. Having been raised in court, he has had to learn how to dance a bit, but it's never something he relishes. Perform (dance) - 2 ranks (18 remain) Intimidate - 2 ranks (16 remain) Having gone through all the stats and picked what we want from each of these, we than have a whole bunch of points we can spend cross stat - 8 int and 16 cha. Let's go back and give Guy a bit more fighting prowess. (Str) Martial weapon: Greatsword - 4 ranks. This costs 8 strength points normally, but are bought cross-stat, so cost 16 instead. (Con) Shield proficiency - 4 ranks. This costs 4 con points, but again is bought cross-stat, so costs 8 points. And that's character creation. Not too different to normal D&D, and he has plenty of chance to learn everything he might be missing - like a bit more of a fortitude save. Until then, he has his high con to tide him over... and he has a reasonble skill level in spot, listen, and knowledge (nobility and royalty), which he could never have got otherwise, even if he was raised in court.
Moonstonedragon 07-03-04, 01:13 PM	To much reading for me, but it honestly looks like the point system from 2nd ed. which was ignored by most cause you could make your own abilities and skills and such, but was WAY over powered and unbalanced. Yes some would like to personalize a char, but everyone else will bend and twist till they get the most powerful abilities from each class.
pddisc 07-03-04, 01:29 PM	It’s almost certain that making it so loose as I have done here makes it freely open to abuse – but if you can justify what you have taken at character creation to the DM, who must take a hands-on approach here, it’s all ok. As long as you advance what you practice, and take abilities which make sense for the character, you should be fine. I know that this is open to abuse, but I'm lucky enough to live in an area filled with people who don't always try to abuse the rules. And if they do, I as DM can say 'I don't understand. The only people in this world that have martial arts are the elves... who talk to no one else, let alone teach others their secrets. Where did you pick it up again?'.
Shoes 07-03-04, 03:20 PM	Or, you can always use BESM d20 (http://www.guardiansorder.com/games/besmd20/) like I am! (Anime d20 SRD (http://www.guardiansorder.com/games/d20/srd/))
pddisc 07-04-04, 12:51 PM	Or, you can always use BESM d20 like I am! (Anime d20 SRD) Had a look at it briefly, but it still has the problems of multiclassing. Although, looking at those classes, there doesn't always seem to be room for multiclassing. No, I don't watch anime, so it doesn't seem to appeal that much. I liked the idea of customising races, though, although most standard fantasy has standard races anyway, so doesn't help much.
Makaris 07-04-04, 12:59 PM	Classless systems, in being so general, are well-known for easily being broken. When designing a game, one of the most important creeds is that you must pretend, as much as possible, that the Game Master has no common sense and will play your game by the letter. Ignoring game balance with the constant harping of "Oh, the GM will handle that stuff" is foolish and stupid. Anyone can do that. A real game designer knows how to make a balanced game that can be played by the letter.
UndeadPenguin 07-04-04, 01:03 PM	I like the idea. Not sure how balanced it is though. I read almost all of it and it appears that the Con hd thing is a bit to cheap. Increase your HD for a mere 4 points? Especially when you get 20 minumum and if its a decent stat then its 40 points. Im trying to find a character who wouldnt do that. And what is up with the "ranks" in weapons. Do you mean proficienies (mispelled)?
pddisc 07-04-04, 01:23 PM	When designing a game, one of the most important creeds is that you must pretend, as much as possible, that the Game Master has no common sense and will play your game by the letter... A real game designer knows how to make a balanced game that can be played by the letter. Not so. White Wolf games is a clear contradiction to this. In fact, D&D is pretty much the only system that has so much emphasis on balance and checks. But then, White Wolf is targeted at more mature players, whereas D&D is targeted at an increasingly lower age group. I read almost all of it and it appears that the Con hd thing is a bit to cheap. Increase your HD for a mere 4 points? Especially when you get 20 minumum and if its a decent stat then its 40 points. Except that you also probably want a fort save, maybe armour/shield proficiency, and other things as well. As you can buy things cross-stat, you might not even want to spend things in any of these things at all. OK, it's true enough at first level, but at later levels, if you're using only 5 points a level, that's a bonus 1/3 fort save or an average of 1 extra hp. And what is up with the "ranks" in weapons. Do you mean proficienies (mispelled)? Rather than have BAB, you take ranks in weapons, as you would a skill. Someone who has been fighting with a longsword for 15 years shouldn't be an expert axeman the first time he picks up an axe.
Telas 07-04-04, 03:41 PM	Not having enough experience with game balance and 3.x Ed. rules, I can't speak to the balance issues of your system in comparison. I can say that a classless system, or at least a very broadly classed system, seems to be the most versatile. I could see a system where points are spread or focused on certain characteristics and abilities, depending on character concept. Specialist or Generalist? You decide. Given the increasing complexity of D&D 3.5 (more splatbooks = more classes, skills, feats, etc), I find a classless system to be a breath of fresh air. Finally I can make a point-man, or a passive priest, or a Dex-based fighter. But balance is going to be a pain in the arse. The first time I played Champions (Hero System 1.0), I was amazed at the simplicity of character creation. The most powerful characters were specialists who teamed together. Generalists pretty much sucked. However well it worked with superheroes, it was tough to see how to use it with weapons. Kudos for giving it a shot. I can easily see WotC trying to simplify the D&D rules if/when they go for a fourth edition. As someone who really doesn't want to devote acres of memory to increasingly complex rules, I salute you for trying to simplify things! Telas
Daybreaker 07-04-04, 04:07 PM	Sounds cool, but it's maybe a bit (or a lot) more complicated than it needs to be. 1) Weapons as skills is good. 2) I think hit dice should just be determined by race. 3) I think some of the abilities of a race's favored class should just be folded into that race. For example, all Elves should be able to learn cantrips like a Wizard, all Half-Orcs should be able to Rage once a day, that kind of thing. 4) Then it's just a matter of turning class abilities into feats, and deciding how to chain them up, and how often to hand them out. Every level? 5) Oh, and spellcasting ... that's kind of a sticky one ... I guess it's just a matter of arbitrarily assigning numbers.
Telas 07-04-04, 04:20 PM	Spells as feats? The ability to cast spells costs x number of feats, and one feat per level of spell. In other words, "spell-casting ability" costs three Feats. This gives you Level 1 spells of a certain class (Divine, Nature, or Arcane). Level 2 spells requires 2 feats, level 3, 3 feats, etc. Paladin and Ranger spells cost less, since the spells aren't as powerful, etc (or have a limited category of spells of each of the Divine, Nature, and Arcane classes). Every character gets x number of feats per level (or per adventure; why even use levels?), to spend as they wish. Do it right, and you could "price" feats by how powerful they are. Set up thie incentives correctly, and the characters will specialize on their own (i.e. an Arcane spellcaster would have to dump almost all his Feat points into spells to be competitive, and a Fighter would have to dump all his Feat points into fighting skills, hit points, physical stats, etc to be competative). Or you could convert Feats into Skills at a rate of 1:5 (or whatever), or convert Feats into Ability Scores at 3:1 (or whatever). But then you're looking an awful lot like Champions, IIRC. *shrug* Telas
Stuntman 07-05-04, 02:02 AM	This a very interesting system. Basically, your abilities are based on your, well, ability scores. High strength = melee skills, high dex = finesse/range combat skills, etc. I got the general understanding of it, although I have not analysed it in any detail for balance. However, I do see you can create a finesse fighter that can tumble very well unlike the 3E fighter. He can be finesse, but cannot tumble that well. With regard to Champions, I did play it briefly. I guess I played a later version of it because I found that you had to do a lot of number crunching in order to create a character. I ended up creating a spreadsheet to assist in character creation. The other thing I noticed about Champions is that there is very little balancing in terms of powers. You can spend practically all of you character points on one attack power. You either hit and win or you miss and lose. It seems that combat tends to be very leathal because you can make an attack that practially takes out anything if you hit. The book even sites examples of such broken character builds and relies on the GM to enforce some sort of control or cap on powers. Although it has some drawbacks with power issues, I am very impressed with the flexibility of the system. The game is geared primarily towards a superhero type of campaign. You can practically create any comic book hero with this system.
pddisc 07-05-04, 03:19 AM	Kudos for giving it a shot. Thanks. 2) I think hit dice should just be determined by race. Why? Those races that are particularly tough get a bonus to con already. Other than that, it's how you spend your life that decides HD - those who spend all their time in study are less likely to develop the ability to take a lot of damage. Possible, under this system, but less likely. 3) I think some of the abilities of a race's favored class should just be folded into that race. For example, all Elves should be able to learn cantrips like a Wizard, all Half-Orcs should be able to Rage once a day, that kind of thing. That's a fairly cool idea. I've not yet got around to what races actually do, so I might do that. Certainly, favoured class is lost without classes. Looking at elves though, I'm not convinced that any part of their description lends them to favoured class wizard. Looks far more like favoured class ranger to me. 4) Then it's just a matter of turning class abilities into feats, and deciding how to chain them up, and how often to hand them out. Every level? 5) Oh, and spellcasting ... that's kind of a sticky one ... I guess it's just a matter of arbitrarily assigning numbers. ... That's what I've done. See above for details. In other words, "spell-casting ability" costs three Feats. This gives you Level 1 spells of a certain class (Divine, Nature, or Arcane). Level 2 spells requires 2 feats, level 3, 3 feats, etc. Paladin and Ranger spells cost less, since the spells aren't as powerful, etc (or have a limited category of spells of each of the Divine, Nature, and Arcane classes). Normal ability costs 12 points. Arcane magic costs 48 points. That's 4 times 12. Additional levels cost 12, and take up the ability slot for that level. Divine magic costs 40 points, with additional levels costing 10, because they have to buy domains now, and need the points from somewhere. Do it right, and you could "price" feats by how powerful they are... I don't think pricing feats by how powerful they are really works. Putting them into a chain, and add prerequisites if necessary, works well enough. Plus after first level, points are fairly few on the ground. ... although I have not analysed it in any detail for balance. I think it balances quite well overall, as long as you take into account the fact that NPCs are done like this too. As I said in the brief, the DM has to make sure the players aren't being silly during character creation.
Makaris 07-05-04, 10:10 AM	Originally posted by pddisc Not so. White Wolf games is a clear contradiction to this. In fact, D&D is pretty much the only system that has so much emphasis on balance and checks. But then, White Wolf is targeted at more mature players, whereas D&D is targeted at an increasingly lower age group. Not to go off-topic, but I have to retort this. White Wolf is not the best system to compare to D&D. White Wolf is heavy on just Roleplaying, and cannot preform well in any other scenario, while D&D supports every form of pen and paper gaming. The reason White Wolf is a poor system of Dungeon crawling is because the actual system itself is poorly constructed in that regard. It was intended that the story teller pay close attention, because the system is very easy to break. I've met enough elitist White Wolf players to realize that, while most would like to think they play a 'better' system, they are just as obsessed with having big numbers. White Wolf is easily breakable. In D&D you can Roleplay just as well as with White Wolf (you don't need a gaming engine to Roleplay), but it also allows for many other things. D&D is prepared to handle any situation, and will almost always be balanced. White Wolf forces the Story teller to make house rulings, which can be unbalancing. Note: I ignored none-core rule breakage in D&D.
pddisc 07-05-04, 10:29 AM	I've met enough elitist White Wolf players to realize that, while most would like to think they play a 'better' system, they are just as obsessed with having big numbers. White Wolf is easily breakable. There can be no 'better' system overall. It depends what you want out of a system. There are munchkins that play D&D, and munchkins that play White Wolf. D&D puts a lot of focus on making a billion rules to try and stop munchkins doing too much. White Wolf concentrate more on having lots of background so those who are more interested in role-playing can play with that. White Wolf is easily breakable... so? The munchkins can find 'breaks' in games regardless of how much effort people put into stopping it. D&D comes with three core books, and a billion extra supplements, all with rules and rules and rules some more. White Wolf has a book, and some supplements, all of which have background, background and background. Saying such sweeping statements as that White Wolf players are all obsessed with big numbers probably shows a lack of smart friends, rather than anything else. If you'd like to continue this debate (or more probably, flame) IM me rather than go more OT on this thread.
Zelphi 07-05-04, 10:38 AM	I think you're completely missing the point of class based system. Roles are very important, if you had a classless system like that in Morrowind or whatever - people rapidly become pointless. You just take everything you need for yourself and all the best abilities or whatevers best for you. You can have enough in lock picking or just use a spell, no need to hide if you're invisible. Why rely on magic that'll run out when you can do everything normally... it goes on. It just devalues people because there are certain things you absolutely need, and certain things you can get by on. That's why class based RPG's exist, so everyone can play their unique role.
pddisc 07-05-04, 11:50 AM	Roles are very important, if you had a classless system like that in Morrowind or whatever - people rapidly become pointless. You just take everything you need for yourself and all the best abilities or whatevers best for you. You can have enough in lock picking or just use a spell, no need to hide if you're invisible. Why rely on magic that'll run out when you can do everything normally... it goes on. It just devalues people because there are certain things you absolutely need, and certain things you can get by on. That's why class based RPG's exist, so everyone can play their unique role. Think of it like this. An ability like 'open lock' is important. If the party work together in character creation, only one person need take it. If they don't, there's a chance two people take it. It doesn't matter about class or classless systems. If you have no idea what else is in the group, you'll probably take something someone else has already. If you check beforehand, you probably won't. OK, a class based system reduces it to simplicity: the rogue will have open lock, the cleric will have knowledge (religion), the fighter can climb things, the ranger sees things... but that's still silly. Why can't a wizard have excellent sight? Or a fighter be a master of the arts? It seemed far simpler to get rid of classes, but keep the gist of it (hence having a primary attribute). Look at all the classes on the classes board - how many are just normal classes with some bits swapped out for other abilities? A classless system just bypasses this entirely. The class based system *has* a near endless stream of classes and prestige classes. The classless system simply *is* an endless stream of options.
Stuntman 07-05-04, 12:22 PM	When you have a classless system, you end up with a build whatever you want regardless of whether or not it makes sense to have a certain combination of abilities. Most people will just build a character with the best abilities. When you have a class-based system, only certain classes have certain abilities because it makes sense for those classes to have them. Another thing that defines a class is an ability that no or few other classes have. Take the Spot example. Having spot as a class skill defines a role for that class because most other classes do not have it as a class skill. Another thing that makes abilities valuable is that few classes have a certain ability or another ability that counters it. Hide is valuable because not all classes have Spot as a class skill. If everyone had Hide or Spot then the value of Hide diminishes. The flexibility of classless systems where anyone can get any ability is also a disadvantage sometimes.
q'afuu 07-05-04, 12:48 PM	I prefer class-based to classless. Which doesn't mean I think the class system used in D&D is particularly good - it isn't, even if it's decent enough at least. With this system, stats become even more important. Aside from modifying skill checks, saves and other rolls, they also determine how much you can pick up in the way of abilities and skills. That's just too much for me. Being stronger shouldn't allow you to train in more strength-based abilities. The same goes for the other stats (aside from Int, obviously). Other than that, it's just leads to an even bigger gap between low-stat chars and high-stat chars.
pddisc 07-05-04, 01:32 PM	Stuntman: A good point, I suppose - except there's the whole difference between someone of high level vs someone of low level. A guard trained to find hidden people should be able to do it sometimes, and assuming guards are fighters or warriors, they can't, making them useless. If they can use spot really well (for their level) they should be able to spot hidden things. q'afuu: The point of giving strong people lots of strength points reflect the fact that that is what they are best at, and it is natural for them to excel at a wide varieties of things to do with it. It doesn't mean that other things don't come to them - it just means it is mildly harder for someone with low cha to be able to dance, sing, calm animals, lie... but it shouldn't stop them from trying. As for widening a gap between low and high stat characters - how so? Everyone in this system gets the exact same amount of points, whereas in normal D&D the difference between high and low intelligence is a vast one, because of the skill points granted. Unless you thought that you got bonus points to spend for high stats? You don't.
Slippery Mind II 07-05-04, 03:17 PM	I would encourage everyone to read the "Customizing your character" section of the PHB (page 110). I believe flexibility is already written in the system, and working with your DM you could easily create a dex based fighter (since that's the example folks are using) that has tumble as a class skill. There is no need to rewrite the entire system because you don't like classes. Also, the idea that hit dice are based on race only encourages more stereotyping (if the elf only gets a d4 or d6 hit dice, you aren't going to be seeing many fighters from that culture because they would be too weak to handle combat.)
pddisc 07-05-04, 04:07 PM	I would encourage everyone to read the "Customizing your character" section of the PHB (page 110). I believe flexibility is already written in the system, and working with your DM you could easily create a dex based fighter (since that's the example folks are using) that has tumble as a class skill. There is no need to rewrite the entire system because you don't like classes. But still there remain all the other problems with a class based system. Although having a bit which says 'classes can be changed slightly' is nice, it doesn't go far enough. You can talk over with your DM switching out stuff for other stuff, but if that was already built into the system, it's far easier to do. For once, I am talking in favour of balance - how does a DM know that taking away trap sense and replacing it with spellcasting won't be a bad idea? OK, a perhaps an unlikely example, but it is that possible error in general that I am talking against.
Stuntman 07-05-04, 04:28 PM	Originally posted by pddisc Stuntman: A good point, I suppose - except there's the whole difference between someone of high level vs someone of low level. A guard trained to find hidden people should be able to do it sometimes, and assuming guards are fighters or warriors, they can't, making them useless. If they can use spot really well (for their level) they should be able to spot hidden things. Thank you. Anyway, regarding guards who are trained to find people, there are ways to handle this in the existing system. The guard can take the skill focus (spot) and alertness feats. If the guard is being trained to find hidden people, you can handle it this way. If he is trained to find people, then he would not be able to devote his time for other feats like the fighting feats. Another way is to multiclass to ranger or rogue. The multiclass system has the flexibility to allow you to build characters that have abilities that are from more than one class. In his training, he can take a level of ranger in which he focused on finding hidden people. If it is humans, he can take that as his favoured enemy and get other bonuses as well. In any case, you have to give up something to get an ability that is not a focus for your class. A fighter using feats to be able to find hidden people better will not be able to use those feat slots for fighting feats. A fighter who multiclasses as a ranger will be one level behind before being able to obtain a fighter feat or qualifying for weapon specialisation, greater weapon focus and greater weapon specialisation. Also, if neither class is a favoured class, you have to deal with possible XP penalties as well.
pddisc 07-05-04, 04:41 PM	Skill focus (spot) and alertness mean he is short two feats - why does he have to take these to be able to spot people? I'm not talking about an elite guard - I'm talking about the average guy. I can understand one or the other, but it does mean he can't fight nearly as well... His main focus is on the running after miscreants and hauling them in, but there would be a fair bit of spot thrown in as well. Multiclassing to ranger or rogue would mean losing the focus on fighting. It would mean saves go silly again. Saying that giving up a class advantage to get something that makes IC sense, that you would be rubbish at because your class doesn't extend to that... it doesn't make sense to me. People are not summed up by a single label, like fighter, wizard or cleric, just like they can never be summed up by alignment. Saying that because of their label they cannot do certain things (very well) is madness.
Slippery Mind II 07-05-04, 06:54 PM	Originally posted by pddisc But still there remain all the other problems with a class based system. Although having a bit which says 'classes can be changed slightly' is nice, it doesn't go far enough. You can talk over with your DM switching out stuff for other stuff, but if that was already built into the system, it's far easier to do. For once, I am talking in favour of balance - how does a DM know that taking away trap sense and replacing it with spellcasting won't be a bad idea? OK, a perhaps an unlikely example, but it is that possible error in general that I am talking against. Well, I have a problem with this premise... How is the system UNbalanced to begin with? I will have to say, I am probably just going to unsubscribe to this thread because 1) I am a hard sale when it comes to this sort of thing (I don't feel it IS unbalanced) and 2) it seems to me that it is your system that is unbalanced. It has been tried before in the D&D game and it didn't work, there are other systems for this sort of thing, I would suggest you use those. I was merely pointing out that there are ways to customize the classes by, as you say, speaking with the DM.
garlak 07-05-04, 07:38 PM	Originally posted by Makaris Classless systems, in being so general, are well-known for easily being broken. When designing a game, one of the most important creeds is that you must pretend, as much as possible, that the Game Master has no common sense and will play your game by the letter. Ignoring game balance with the constant harping of "Oh, the GM will handle that stuff" is foolish and stupid. Anyone can do that. A real game designer knows how to make a balanced game that can be played by the letter. Classless systems are no less balanced then class based systems, they just use different means to achieve it. If you put all your points to be good in combat you will be really bad at other things like social skills. If your GM puts you in a situation where combat will get you killed every time then your character is useless. Some GMs are too stupid to realize it unfortunately.
Stuntman 07-06-04, 02:10 AM	Originally posted by pddisc Skill focus (spot) and alertness mean he is short two feats - why does he have to take these to be able to spot people? I'm not talking about an elite guard - I'm talking about the average guy. I can understand one or the other, but it does mean he can't fight nearly as well... His main focus is on the running after miscreants and hauling them in, but there would be a fair bit of spot thrown in as well. Multiclassing to ranger or rogue would mean losing the focus on fighting. It would mean saves go silly again. Saying that giving up a class advantage to get something that makes IC sense, that you would be rubbish at because your class doesn't extend to that... it doesn't make sense to me. People are not summed up by a single label, like fighter, wizard or cleric, just like they can never be summed up by alignment. Saying that because of their label they cannot do certain things (very well) is madness. He can spot people by taking ranks in spot. Spot happens to be a cross class skill because the class is not excellent at being able to spot people. The average guy can spot an average guy hiding. Hide is a cross class skill as well. If both the average guy who spots and the average guy who hides both max out on skill ranks on spot and hide, they will be even in the chance of spotting or not being spotted. However, an average guy cannot spot an expert in hiding (eg., rogue). It takes an expert in spotting (eg., ranger) to have an even chance at spotting an expert in hiding. If the average guy wants to be better than average at spotting, he can take the skill focus feat to spot. He is bettering his ability to spot instead of bettering his ability in something else. That's what feats are for. It's like the average non-fighter wanting to fight a bit better by taking weapon focus. Likewise, a fighter-type may want to fight better and take weapon focus. If a fighter takes power attack and cleave, he's short two feats as well. Only he spent the feats on fighting. D&D is a class-based system. A class defines a role. The abilities of that class are a set of abilities that make sense for a character that has that particular role. The abilities that a class does not have also defines that role as well. These roles also define the D&D world. There are clerics, wizards, fighters, etc. Suppose we were to remove all divine caster classes and have all magic including healing being arcane. It would greatly change the D&D world without clerics, paladins, etc. If you look at other RPG's that are class based, the classes are different and those classes help define what that world is like. Even if the other RPG is d20-based, putting D&D classes into the other world would work mechanically, but it would drastically change what that world is like. D&D needs the classes to help define the D&D world. In D&D, there are clerics, fighters, wizards, etc. The prestige classes also define the world as well. There are PrC's that are based on organisations in the campaign setting. If you primarily take wizard levels, you will be known in that world as a wizard. In the real world, there are lawyers, scientists, doctors, construction workers. A lawyer is unlikely to know much about construction. If he does, he may have multiclassed or taken some feats (in game terms) to learn those skills. Since he was learning construction, he would not have been able to devote that same time to learning law. If he did a little construction, but then mostly focused on law, he will be labled a lawyer. In our real world, there is no wizard class. What a lawyer is not an expert in defines what a lawyer is. A lawyer is not going to need to spot people sneaking in the dark. Even if he has good eyesite, he will not be trained to be an expert at spotting ninjas sneaking in the dark. Another ninja, however, will likely be trained to spot other ninjas sneaking around. That is why it is harder to sneak up to a ninja than it is to sneak up on a lawyer. The multiclassing rules allow for some more flexibility in building a character. Basically when you multiclass, you stop your advancement in one class to pursue another. Just like in the real world, you stop one career to switch to another. When you stop advancing in a career, you fall behind compared to someone who remained in that career. If you are in a career that does not specialise in spot, then your spot is average. If you are in a career that does emphasise spot, then your spot can be excellent. Regarding saves (and BAB to a lesser extent), the regular rules for multiclass saves are designed to be simple. If you really want accuracy, just use a fractional save rule. It is more complex, but it will give the desired result. It's up to you to determine whether or not you feel it is worth the complexity.
pddisc 07-06-04, 04:45 AM	Stuntman, although this is a compelling argument, it is also flawed. My problem with the class stereotypes is with such things as the assumption that people such as lawyers cannot be heroically spotful. A fighter type's stereotype includes being a fantastic climber... why? Because it's active, and fighters are the most active people? In this world, would a computer programmer get climb as a class skill? I doubt it. Yet I know someone who is both a computer programmer and can climb really quite well - it's not a case of buying cross class, because in real life there is no such thing. He simply chooses to do it, and practices, and is good. When you say that a guardsman would only have the 'ordinary' spot ability, and that being cross class, I disagree. I don't like the idea of the NPC classes at all. 1st level heroes are barely better than them at all, and having an NPC with as high a level as 20, but with only NPC levels is madness. Only true heroes get to the high levels. That is how I believe it should be measured. So an ordinary guard, who is alert and learns to spot things, would be only level one, but would have a number of ranks in spot. I see no reason why he should have to buy spot cross-class, because it is a vital part of his role. An ordinary sneak would also be only a level 1 person, so their good hide would be balanced against the good spot of the guard. Rather than make an entire new class for the guard, or fiddle with taking some stuff from somewhere and putting it somewhere else, which goes against the system, change the system so that it is built in to it to have a variant character every time, which after having played the stereotypes for so long is so much more fun.
roguebfl 07-06-04, 05:09 AM	I have no problems with classless Systems, I mean my prefured system is GURPS, but when I play fantacy, i like to play High fantacy, and GURPS has two problems doing that 1) GURPS combat is deadly (old joke: how to tell a vetreran GURPS player from a novice one? the Novice will attack the guard, a vetran will try to sneak pass) and Healing magic is weaker then DnD healing.
Illithidbix 07-06-04, 07:40 AM	You know people seem be chucking the word “balance” about a lot but what exactly do they mean by it? People have very different ideas about it. For many people it seems to be purely to do with how characters compare in a straight fight, applied in a competitive game (i.e one side has a definite advantage), this is not the way I like to play D&D, as it is meant to be a role-playing game after all. It's not like the players are in competition with each other (or at least not usually…), and the DM has absolute rule-breaking power anyway. I would rather has something be slightly "overpowered" but more fun to play than have it more “balanced” yet not be as fun, although of course the enjoyment of other players also need to be considered. For me the only real case of brokenness is one character to be able to do just about everything another character can do, except even more competently, and then the neglected character not having a chance to do anything because someone else can always do it better than. Under this system everyone starts of pretty much the same, you don’t a huge bonus because you rolled consistently high stats at character creation because stuff like number of skill points don’t depend on any statistics, but how you distribute them and create you’re character. And this system is build around the idea of making consistent characters and having DM involvement Under this system, yes there is likely to be quite a few people who are good at the same thing but is this always a problem? Take the fact that now everyone can quite easily be sneaky and stealthy (if it suits their character concept), this means that now the entire party can go an scout out effectively rather than just the rogue/ranger (or whatever), it also means that if you share similar abilities with someone then you also have more opportunity to differ from them in other area’s. This system makes far more sense conceptually as well, why does someone who is extremely good at diplomacy or making things have to necessarily to be tough and good at fighting as well? It makes making NPC’s rather easier cus you can just assign them what abilities and skills you think they should have and then if you feel the need, total them up to find out their effective level. pddisc has run a few games using the system, and there are a few more in the pipeline (one run by someone who played under it). The people who have played in it have all said it is a lot of fun, more so than using regular classes, so that’s the fundamental point to me. I have tested the system, and compared to the “legal” builds you find on the “Character Optimisation board” (insert more accurate name here) on a regular bases, it seems far less open to “abuse” than the rules currently are. And if you can create character’s using this system that are stronger than the regular classes? So what? The DM can just adjust the campaign to compensate. Different games run at different power/lethality/wealth etc levels anyway, almost every game I’ve played in have had treasure and item distribution at a rate far lower than the (IMO) ludicrous amounts suggested in the DMG. it’s not like there is one universal D&D game which everything must be balanced-against-otherwise-the-world explodes. Since this system replaces the current class system I see no problem with it.
Tony Vargas 07-06-04, 01:49 PM	Classless systems have been done, and been done very well. Everything in D&D, though, is built with a classed system in mind, and the mechanics reflect that. Trying to mince those mechanics up and rearange them into a classless system is a difficult task. OTOH, there are very good systems out there that have always been classless and have mechanics that support uniquely-designed character very, very well. GURPs has been mentioned, Hero is another. d20 isn't the only game in town.
Crave 10-02-04, 01:06 PM	*hack cough* Uber generics (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=282481) *hack cough* ;)
Quietus_Silivren 10-02-04, 08:07 PM	To those advocating "balance": The only real measure of balance for a character is how well that character does in dealing with the challenges (s)he is presented with. If a character consistantly does better than the others in his/her party, it is a balance problem. If all of them do consistantly well, it is a game problem, and the DM needs to handle it by adjusting encounter difficulty. To anyone saying that classes have roles to fill, and that those roles should define the classes: This is ridiculous. What possible reason is there that a character has to try twice as hard (or harder) to get half the effect (or less) in his skill than another character? Innate ability (read: ability scores), maybe? Certainly not the character's role. Although that role would lead him/her to try harder (read: put more skill points into it) to become skilled at tasks appropriate to it (if (s)he intends to be any good at filling his/her role), it definitely should not determine the success of his/her efforts to gain skill in performing any task. In other words, I don't believe in this cross-class crap at all. The very idea that role should define character is flawed to the core. I believe people are sick of class stereotypes, and want to play a character with realistic personality, talent, abilities, tendancies, preferences, and skills. This is the reason that classless systems exist. If you disagree, there is no reason for you to use a classless system, and there is no reason for you to put down others' use of one. I, personally, will be creating a classless, skill-based d20 system for anyone who is interested, whenever I have the time. By skill-based, I mean that most, if not all feats will become skills instead, and BAB will be replaced by skill in weapon groups (wow, attacking will be a skill check...yes, I realize max ranks=lvl+3, meaning higher attack bonus...I will deal with that, or not, seeing as this may be considered as replacing weapon focus). There will be no exotic weapons, although some unique weapons may be the only ones in their respective weapon groups. Obviously, characters will have a lot more skill points, and the number of these they have will be the sole limiting factor behind the abilities they have. This will be taking the opposite approach to that of AD&D, which used a proficiency-based (basically feat-based) system for all of its skills.
Haldrik 10-02-04, 09:24 PM	Quietus_Silivren: I don't believe in this cross-class crap at all. Preach it, Sister! I, personally, will be creating a classless, skill-based d20 system for anyone who is interested, whenever I have the time. Take a look at my Paragon class in my sig. It's a level-based classless system, where the class features for each new level are an open choice of abilities. The Paragon uses skills normally. If you suggest that certain features make more sense as skills, I'd be interested.
Quietus_Silivren 10-02-04, 10:11 PM	Preach it, Sister! Take a look at my Paragon class in my sig. It's a level-based classless system, where the class features for each new level are an open choice of abilities. The Paragon uses skills normally. If you suggest that certain features make more sense as skills, I'd be interested.My system is actually a totally different take on how to handle character developement. Yours sticks to D&D, but takes multiclassing to a new level, which I really like. Mine, however, isn't even really D&D, anymore (but it is d20, and is intended for use in D&D worlds). EVERYTHING is a skill, if it conceivably could be. Oh, and by the way, not that it matters, but I happen to be male :P
Haldrik 10-02-04, 10:26 PM	but I happen to be male Sorry, Bro. There was a 50-50 chance ... between going with the (female) angelic icon or with the "-us" ending of your name. :D Keep us posted about your skills class.
Quietus_Silivren 10-02-04, 11:39 PM	Sorry, Bro. There was a 50-50 chance ... between going with the (female) angelic icon or with the "-us" ending of your name. :D Keep us posted about your skills class. :heehee You apologize as if it were an insult. Actually, "quietus" in english is "something which causes quiet." Or, in the latin "quietus est" written of someone who has paid a debt, "(he/she) is quit." Either way, it has no gender connotation. As for the skills system, I'm working on that now, actually.
Quietus_Silivren 10-03-04, 01:08 AM	Okay, I posted the basics of it. I realized it actually does have a lot in common with yours. I simply decided to use skill points instead, and, well, what do you usually spend skill points on? So, I made anything a skill that I could, and it worked out pretty well (especially saving throws being "cross-class" skills, and therefore max ranks 12 at lvl 20).