Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sollmn 03-09-05, 04:31 PM	I don't like to mess with the Rules As Written much, but some core imbalances can really bother me. Any change, however, should be as simple as possible; easy to figure out by players and use in game. My fix for the cleric consists of two parts, a minor and major change: Turning Undead and Spells Known. Turning Undead: Instead of "a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier" I propose "a number of times per day equal to 1/4th his character level (rounded up) + his Charisma modifier". Thus, at 1st level a cleric can use turn/rebuke undead 1/day, 2/day at 4th, 3/day at 8th, 4/day at 12th, 5/day at 16th, and 6/day at 20th. This makes level dipping into cleric for turn undead less powerful, and gives a benefit to those clerics who never grab a prestige class. Spells Known: Instead of automatically knowing all spells on the cleric list, clerics learn and know spells similar to the way a wizard does. Just like a wizard, they start knowing all 0-level cleric spells (from the PH), plus three 1st-level spells of thier choice. They also begin knowing any domain spells, and of course cure or cause spells (depending on alignment). Each level, they gain two new spells of any spell level or levels that they can cast, plus any cure/cause spell and any domain spells of a new highest spell-level when appropriate. They may learn additional spells from cleric-scrolls, in the same maner of a wizard. They do not have spell-books, having mastery over any spell known. This gives greater focus to what domains a cleric picks, as it gives bonus spells known. It also, and more importantly, creates a minor inhibitor to a cleric automatically knowing all the spells in all the books, especially the new spells that come with any newly released Accessory. They can still eventually know all spells, although at a cost either in loyalty and organization with their priesthood (encouraging more roleplaying) or gold to buy scrolls. These two fixes are understandable, use in-game mechanics, and I think help balance the cleric a little. Sure, the cleric is still potentially the most powerful class, but maybe instead of being at power X, they are at power X-n. What do people think? I thought about also requiring clerics to carry spell-books, like a Torah, Bible, or Koran, but so many great DnD gods and religions don't have written doctrin, so I nixed that idea.
sollmn 03-20-05, 11:55 AM	:bump:
TinManFan 03-20-05, 01:17 PM	Thing is, dipping into cleric to get turning isn't all that great. a Sorc 19/Cleric 1 still turns as a 1st level cleric.
FrinkiacVII 03-20-05, 02:37 PM	I agree with TinManFan about the turning. I'm currently playing a Ftr4/Clr1 character in a campaign and I took the one level of Cleric for the added saving throw bonuses and for the special abilities that the Domains gave me at level 1. The Luck Domain gives you a daily reroll which is nice, and Healing gives the ability to cure youself or others for an average of 22 damage points per day, it's not much, but it's enough to stabilize people that are about to die, or to heal myself a little at the end of the day so that the party's REAL Cleric can cast something else or scribe it in a scroll. In fact the PC I decribed above actually is a Dwarf with a Cha of 8. He get's 2 daily turn attempts, and I doub't they be very effective against the ghouls we've been facing lately, so I haven't even bothered to use them. On a more fundamental level, although the Cleric is a frontloaded class in every way except the spells, most people don't think Cleric is broken just because you can splash a level of it. The same can be said of Fighter, and nobody thinks Fighter is broken. So I think an attempt to nerf the Cleric should center on the fact the high level Clerics can be very tough in melee combat, which just seems wrong for their basic character (to me at least). A high level Cleric should be a wise old preacher/scribe that dispenses sage advice and calls down the mighty wrath of his deity on those who would do evil (or good, depending on the deity in question). I think it would be better to reduce the cleric's melee effectiveness in some way (BaB progression, weapon selection, armor allowed) or maybe just get rid of some of the self-melee-buff spells and replace them with things that are still powerful, but more spellcastery instead of fightery. The Cleric's need for heavy armor is due mainly to the fact that a lot of his cure spells are touch ranged, if they were all short-ranged rays he could be restrictred to light or no armor and have to stand back with the other spellcasters and be yet another "please don't let them hurt me, I'm just a spellcaster" type, which I think is more fitting, and which increases the demand for more melee fighters, paladins, barbarians, monks, and melee rangers, which is probably good too. The one thing that you have to be careful of though is turning the Cleric into a guy that only ever casts cure spells. Nobody will want to be that guy. So he needs to be able to cure people to some extent AND spellcast. If these two functions could be seperated in some way that might be good. Maybe give every good cleric (or neutral cleric who turns undead instead of commanding them) the Healing Domain as a free domain, complete with it's own seperate domain spell slot at each level. Then the other 2 domains wouldn't have a domain spell slot per se, but would simply add spells to the Cleric's repertoire that he could cast in his regular slots. The domains would then contain only spells that are normally unavailable to the cleric, and these domains would only be available to clerics of certain deities (that is, you'd HAVE to pick a deity that has Fire as one of his domains in order to get the Fire spells). I mean, people generally try to get their party's cleric to take the Healing domain anyway, this would allow them to still do the required healing but also some damage at a distance.
Lina_Inverse 03-20-05, 02:49 PM	Thing is, dipping into cleric to get turning isn't all that great. a Sorc 19/Cleric 1 still turns as a 1st level cleric. two words. divine feats. dip cleric and grab the fire and air domains.and you got yourself 21 turn attempts for them. no one uses turning against undead,it never works!
Dire Celestial Bonobo 03-20-05, 05:02 PM	dip cleric and grab the fire and air domains.and you got yourself ...no extra attempts. Divine feats---at least all those in CW (the first book I checked) all specify that they use up a turn/rebuke undead usage. Air and fire creatures aren't undead, so those domain powers---unless there's been an errata---are useless for divine feats.
sollmn 03-20-05, 10:19 PM	Divine Feats is the main reason to switch the Turn progression. I also wanted to reward clerics who went straight cleric and not into a PrC with ore turning ability, including more divine feat uses. As to the overall nerf, with these "fixes" I do not want to change the core feel of the class, so I still want to keep the cleric a heavy armored healer with decent combat abilities. By limiting spells known, though, you limit the ability of all clerics knowing all beefing spells, because they will actually have to choose between them and other, non-combat, but still icnredibly useful spells, like Scry, Find Traps, Restoration, etc..
Lina_Inverse 03-20-05, 10:29 PM	...no extra attempts. Divine feats---at least all those in CW (the first book I checked) all specify that they use up a turn/rebuke undead usage. Air and fire creatures aren't undead, so those domain powers---unless there's been an errata---are useless for divine feats. *whips out book* spell power-turn or rebuke.no mention of undead. divine metamagic-misleading but turn or rebuke. domain sponting-undead. glorious weapons-turn or rebuke. elemental smiteing-elementals,still a divine feat thou. profane boost-rebuke,funny a good cleric CAN use this because of rebuke elemental. sacred boost-turn. empower-undead quicken-undead so most of the good stuff is undead only you were right there,ironicly the ones best suited for being applied to all are undead only.
DM Denubis 03-20-05, 10:31 PM	Divine Metamagic is turn undead only? Last time I checked, it said turn or rebuke undead in the prerequisites, but only said turn or rebuke for the actual usage of the feat.
Lina_Inverse 03-20-05, 10:47 PM	Divine Metamagic is turn undead only? Last time I checked, it said turn or rebuke undead in the prerequisites, but only said turn or rebuke for the actual usage of the feat. divine megabroke is indeed turn undead well techniclly.wait nope,thats just the flavor text. it states you can use the energy of turning undead then just says turn attempts not turn undead attempts. by the raw although abit unclear,its definitly a any thing.
DM Denubis 03-20-05, 11:06 PM	Good. My loophole still works. Oh, and as for the actual change in mind, does it affect paladins as well? What about the Sacred Exorcist, or any other prestige classes that grant the ability? Personally, I don't like the idea, because turning itself is not what's making the cleric enormously overpowered, it's the divine feats. Especially Divine Metamagic (Persistant), which is always fun.
Radwraith 03-20-05, 11:27 PM	The Class is not Broken, The feat is. If the feat is Broken or imbalanced, Disallow it or Modify it to your likeing!
Manyfist 03-20-05, 11:34 PM	Clerics are not Broken, they're really usefull yet, really un-usefull. Try having a cleric in an anti-magic zone? They request there spells through there diety, really put your cleric to keeping his alignment, if he does some thing un-typical of his alignment, I mean a MAJOR MAJOR thing. Make the Cleric make the decision and if choose wrong he become an Ex-Cleric. Simple. :D
DM Denubis 03-20-05, 11:43 PM	Antimagic is no problem for a cleric of Mystra.
okpokalypse 03-21-05, 12:21 AM	*whips out book* spell power-turn or rebuke.no mention of undead. divine metamagic-misleading but turn or rebuke. domain sponting-undead. glorious weapons-turn or rebuke. elemental smiteing-elementals,still a divine feat thou. profane boost-rebuke,funny a good cleric CAN use this because of rebuke elemental. sacred boost-turn. empower-undead quicken-undead so most of the good stuff is undead only you were right there,ironicly the ones best suited for being applied to all are undead only. Umm.. I'm going to requote from the book, since you seem to have some misconceptions. Divine MetaMagic - "As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it..." (CD p 80) Divine Spellpower - "You can channel positive or negative energy to enhance..." (CD p 80) Since the Turn attempts you get from the elemental domains never specifically state they're positive or negative energy, it can only be assumed the energy being channeled is the elemental energy of the given domain (This is a rule lawyer cop-out, but a valid one). In fact, that's the only way it makes a shred of sense... After all, why would positive energy destroy a water creature and negative energy rebuke a fire creature, as would be the case in using the Fire domain under your example. It's pretty obvious the Cleric at hand is channeling energy from the elemental plane of fire (much as a good cleric channels energy from the positive plane - which IS an elemental plane) to either command those of like energy or destroy those the energy opposes. The funny thing is that this was common sense to anyone I've ever played with... Glorious Weapons - "Prerequisites: Ability to Turn or Rebuke Undead" (CD p 82) How'd you miss this one? Profane Boost - "Prerequisite: Ability to rebuke undead." (CD p 84) Sacred Boost - "Prerequisite: Ability to turn undead." (CD p 84) Again, how did you miss these last two. It's right in the book, unless you're grabbing these out of some old 3.0 book like Defender's of the Faith. I got all the above quotes out of the 3.5 Complete Divine. As for your Turn/Rebuke abuses... From the PHB, Page 33 "A good cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships a good deity) can turn or destroy undead creatures. An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships an evil deity) instead rebukes or commands such creatures, forcing them to cower in awe of his power. If your character is a neutral cleric of a neutral deity, you must choose whether his turning ability functions as that of a good cleric or an evil cleric. Once you make this choice, it cannot be reversed. This decision also determines whether the cleric can cast spontaneous cure or inflict spells." So in short a good cleric can NOT use Profane boost because 1. they don't have the ability to rebuke undead, and 2. the ability to rebuke an elemental (via a domain ability) will not power a feat that requires the "Ability to rebuke undead." I know I've said this before, but I think you (and many other people) are letting prejudices towards classes (maybe you feel your favorite class is degraded because of the cleric) influence your assumptions of what a cleric can do. Maybe you have an older version of these feats from a 3.0 source - but I find it hard to believe someone as rules oriented as you would pull out 3.0 material and quote it as law when a 3.5 book was released that amended it half a year ago.
DM Denubis 03-21-05, 12:26 AM	Umm.. I'm going to requote from the book, since you seem to have some misconceptions. Divine MetaMagic - "As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it..." (CD p 80) I believe that's flavor text only. Also, the prerequisites being the ability to turn or rebuke undead don't mean that those specifically need to be used. If you want to go that route, why is Rapid Shot needed to take Manyshot? The two can never, under any circumstance, be used together. Just because it's a prerequisite doesn't necessarily mean that that's the one that's needed. If it just mentions a turn or rebuke attempt, not specifically an undead one, then you can use an elemental one, by the rules as written.
Lina_Inverse 03-21-05, 12:35 AM	The funny thing is that this was common sense to anyone I've ever played with... funny thing is,common sense and flavor text dont apply.only the RAW.the RAW state a turning/rebuke attempt.which CLEARLY those are. Glorious Weapons - "Prerequisites: Ability to Turn or Rebuke Undead" (CD p 82) How'd you miss this one? Profane Boost - "Prerequisite: Ability to rebuke undead." (CD p 84) Sacred Boost - "Prerequisite: Ability to turn undead." (CD p 84) prereq yes,but not in the ability useage.and noted about the boosts. I know I've said this before, but I think you (and many other people) are letting prejudices towards classes (maybe you feel your favorite class is degraded because of the cleric) influence your assumptions of what a cleric can do. Maybe you have an older version of these feats from a 3.0 source - but I find it hard to believe someone as rules oriented as you would pull out 3.0 material and quote it as law when a 3.5 book was released that amended it half a year ago. my favorite class IS the cleric.maybe that will tell you something.
okpokalypse 03-21-05, 01:03 AM	I believe that's flavor text only. Also, the prerequisites being the ability to turn or rebuke undead don't mean that those specifically need to be used. If you want to go that route, why is Rapid Shot needed to take Manyshot? The two can never, under any circumstance, be used together. Just because it's a prerequisite doesn't necessarily mean that that's the one that's needed. If it just mentions a turn or rebuke attempt, not specifically an undead one, then you can use an elemental one, by the rules as written. Nope... Divine Metamagic You can channel energy into some of your divine spells to make them more powerful. Prerequisite: Ability to turn undead or rebuke undead. Benefit: When you take this feat, choose a metamagic feat. This feat applies only to that metamagic feat. As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to spells that you know. ... Because you're using positive or negative energy to augment your spells, the spell slot for the spell doesn't change. Simply put, it DOES state that it's a turning or rebuking undead - and not only that, it states it's positive or negative energy - which is NEVER said about the elemental domain energy used. Elemental domains allow for turning / rebuking elementals using elemental energy native to the domain. (This was documented in 3.0 - but seeing as it's never been revised, it should still stand)
okpokalypse 03-21-05, 01:14 AM	funny thing is,common sense and flavor text dont apply.only the RAW.the RAW state a turning/rebuke attempt.which CLEARLY those are. What do you mean by RAW? Are you talking about the composite list preceeding the feats? I sure hope that's not what you mean... Because if it is... If by some slim chance I'm misinterpretting you as to mean that... Then I want to join your campaign and make a WarMage and use Arcane Disciple out the butt. All those little limitations that you see in the "Benefit" section of the "flavor text" doesn't seem to count in your world - so my Elven Generalist Wizard is going to have a full healing contingent and on top of that, have them all be spontaneous (Spontaneous Healer) - without limitation, of course! That stuff listed under "Benefit" in the Feat description is absolutely, positively NOT "flavor text." I REALLY hope I misunderstood you on this one...
Reinforcements 03-21-05, 03:04 AM	Sorry, Lina, but I'm with Okpokalypse on this one. Looking at the feat descriptions, no, it's not explicit, but come on. It's still very clear what the intent is, and any DM with common sense would rule that only turn undead attempts can be used for those feats.
fractal 03-21-05, 04:48 AM	My personal reading is that only turning undead attempts may be used to power Divine Metamagic, but Divine Spellpower (much less broken) can be used with any type of turn attempt.
sollmn 03-21-05, 08:15 AM	I'd hate to see this thread derailed by a debate over divine feats and turning. What do people think of the other, and probably much more significant change, namely that in spells known and available?
okpokalypse 03-21-05, 10:42 AM	I like the idea of not starting with all spells known. Rather than calling them spells, I'd like to refer to them as Prayers. That way you could interact with another Clergy member to learn a Prayer. The caveat is that to learn a Prayer, you have to learn it from someone of your order, since, in theory, Prayer's differ from Deity to Deity. If you switch Deities, you have to learn all new Prayers! Of course, being they're spontaneous, Heals are always known Prayers. Using a real-world example... Reciting the "Our Father" to Allah isn't gonna get much done if you switch faiths ;). Of course, this is only a slow-down tactic. The real problem with Clerics more than anything else is that they have just a few spells that aren't right for them... Divine Power (Better than Tenser's because you can still cast!) Righteous Might (Personally, I don't think this is that bad - but other's hate it) Blade Barrier (Makes a "Battle Cleric" far, far too effective) Just removing these 3 spells will permanently cease all the bickering about "Clerics being better Warriors than Fighters." Personally, as I have posted before, I think there needs to be another class somewhere in the middle of the Cleric and the Paladin. Something with a Bard-Like spell progression of more battle-oriented Cleric Spells. A Templar class would be ideal in removing all the utility a Cleric benefits from, and leaving them with the down-and-dirty War aspect of the Cleric class. Essentially making them the WarMage version of the Cleric. Wizard ~~ Cleric Sorcerer ~~ Favored Soul WarMage ~~ Templar But whereas the WarMage gets a 9th level spell progression, I'd keep the Templar topped out at 6th level (Just like a Bard). I figure this balances the d8 v d6 HD, the better BAB, and the better Saves they'd still have. You could even mix in a few lower-level Arcane spells onto their Divine list (occurrning at later levels) to help boost their offensive prowess as casters - being the Divine list doesn't have too much at 6th level and below other than FlameStrike and Searing Light really... Anyhow, I've gone off on a tangent. But yes, I like the idea of making Clerics learn their spells as opposed to knowing everything.
okpokalypse 03-21-05, 11:11 AM	My personal reading is that only turning undead attempts may be used to power Divine Metamagic, but Divine Spellpower (much less broken) can be used with any type of turn attempt. Personally, I'd restrict it because of 1 line: "You can channel positive or negative energy to enhance your divine spellcasting ability." Again, it comes down to positive or negative energy - which elemental-domain turning does not use. It's assumed, at the very least, to use elemental energy. At worst one must yield that the elemental domain turning ability never once states that it uses positive or negative energy. In fact, it's a separate turning pool altogether. {TANGENT} I don't know... I get very annoyed (and I don't mean to direct this at anyone in particular) at DMs that don't step in and use common sense. It seems there's a lot of people posting on this board who like to ignore parts of feat and spell descriptions as "flavor text" and get around little "snags" that prevent them from using a feat like they want - not as the books intended. There's a guy who opened an Arcane Disciple thread on another board and a follow up poster insisted that a spontaneous caster can violate the 1 spell per level per day restriction for the domain gained. The funny thing is it clearly states in the last paragraph under "benefit" that it also applies to spontaneous casting, or those who "do not prepare spells." It astounds me how much this happens, and then people cry broken. Sure, not everything is of the same balance. That's how the game is. Sure, the Cleric right now is better than many classes because of good HD, BAB, Saves and a great spell selection. But broken? Hardly! If I had to peg the 5 best classes in the game, the Cleric would not make the list. 1. WarMage 2. Psychic Warrior 3. Druid 4. Psion 5. Favored Soul And I'd still hesitate to say any of these base-classes are broken. Sure, in conjunction with outrageous PrCs, they get real ugly. But if you look at the base itself, and take it long term, they are not nearly as game-breaking as many might like to think. Why do Clerics and Druids get d8 HD when Wizards only get d4? Simply put, because a Cleric has to be down in it. How would a Cleric fare if he had a d4 HD and needed to touch his ally (in combat) to heal him? You'd have one dead Cleric real fast as he gets swarmed under. I personally like the addition of the Cloistered Cleric. I think it gives a good differentiation in the two types of historically viewed "clerics." One - the 1500's scottish priest who wields a sword into battle while wearing armor and chanting to the lord to guide and protect his people while he's running someone through. And Two - the same era british temple priest who heals those brought to him, and is more of a spiritual guider than an agressive battle-field presence calling down the wrath of god upon his enemies. This latter Cleric is a fountain of knowledge and often has ties to everyone and everything of importance. This is why the Cloistered Cleric gets 6 + Int skills, a much better skill list, and a reduced HD and BAB. Essentially, the d20 system, until the Cloistered Cleric got written up, assumed all Clerics were battle-field Clerics and not late dark-ages upper-class Clergy as many envision Clerics to be. {/TANGENT}
Lina_Inverse 03-21-05, 03:13 PM	Divine Metamagic You can channel energy into some of your divine spells to make them more powerful. Prerequisite: Ability to turn undead or rebuke undead. Benefit: When you take this feat, choose a metamagic feat. This feat applies only to that metamagic feat. As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to spells that you know.you must spend one turning or rebukeing attempt plus an additional attempt for each level increase of the metamagic feat Because you're using positive or negative energy to augment your spells, the spell slot for the spell doesn't change. intent and common sense do not appy to the game rules.only the RAW.otherwise your in house rule teritory which this was a disscussion on the RAW therefore house rules dont apply unless we are discussing fixes.is it a reasonable house rule?yes.is it still a house rule?yes.
okpokalypse 03-21-05, 03:24 PM	Divine Metamagic You can channel energy into some of your divine spells to make them more powerful. Prerequisite: Ability to turn undead or rebuke undead. Benefit: When you take this feat, choose a metamagic feat. This feat applies only to that metamagic feat. As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to spells that you know.you must spend one turning or rebukeing attempt plus an additional attempt for each level increase of the metamagic feat Because you're using positive or negative energy to augment your spells, the spell slot for the spell doesn't change. intent and common sense do not appy to the game rules.only the RAW.otherwise your in house rule teritory which this was a disscussion on the RAW therefore house rules dont apply unless we are discussing fixes.is it a reasonable house rule?yes.is it still a house rule?yes. LINA! ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!! Read what you wrote! PLEASE READ IT! Read the sentence BEFORE you bolded and see that it specifically says TURN OR REBUKE UNDEAD. Once a listing states it's using Turn or Rebuke Undead as it's power in it's description as it has here, it DOES NOT all of a sudden go away because the next line shaves a word off (probably to save printing cost). These rules are CONJUNCTIVE! Meaning locagically you should treat them all as AND gates unless stated otherwise specifically in the text. COME ON! Please tell me you're just trying to be a jerk at this point and not that you actually believe that rediculous interpretation to be right - I'll have more respect for you.
Lina_Inverse 03-21-05, 03:31 PM	LINA! ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!! Read what you wrote! PLEASE READ IT! Read the sentence BEFORE you bolded and see that it specifically says TURN OR REBUKE UNDEAD. Once a listing states it's using Turn or Rebuke Undead as it's power in it's description as it has here, it DOES NOT all of a sudden go away because the next line shaves a word off (probably to save printing cost). These rules are CONJUNCTIVE! Meaning locagically you should treat them all as AND gates unless stated otherwise specifically in the text. COME ON! Please tell me you're just trying to be a jerk at this point and not that you actually believe that rediculous interpretation to be right - I'll have more respect for you. *chuckle*well im argueing this to the most abusive way i can.irregardless of common sense and intent.actully common sense dictates i smack divine metamagic with a big fat BANNED line,even if the intent(which i agree with you on intent) was to only use turn undead,its still broken beyond belief..
Darken 03-21-05, 03:43 PM	Since this thread is primarily about neither Divine feats nor whether or not Cleric actually needs fixing, I'll return to topic on the fixes. The primary issue about Cleric is not the Turning ability. When you propose a "fix", you should consider the class at its core, ie without including external materials from other sources or combinations of abilities. The core problem with Cleric is the fact it can protentially do many things, instead of the original intended niche: Divine spellcasting. Thus, if you want to fix it, what you should do is balance the class by reducing its non-spellcasting benefits to push it towards the intended niche. I would suggest a change to its HD and armor proficiency instead. A d6 and light armor + shield seems to be a simple step on the right track. You might further go into some core spells to ensure that these stripped power are not easily replaced by the spells without cost.
sollmn 03-21-05, 04:44 PM	Thanks, Darken, for getting back on topic. While I agree the Turning isn't much of an issue, I include it just because in general I tend to want to discourage dipping, so my "fixes" tend to have that element. That aside. I agree that d6 HD and/or light armor would significantly "fix" the cleric. But I do not want to change the overall feel of the class. I want those who enjoy playing a cleric because they like being a secondary tank with lots of spells to still feel welcome playing my cleric. This is a fix that I would require anyone who played a cleric in my campaign world to except, and thus want it to feel like a fair compromise, between those of us who feel it is overpowered, and those who say, "How dare you nerf my favortie class!" I really like the cloistered cleric alternative in Unearthed Arcana, and for those who wanted, I'd let them play that too, although they too would have the spells known mechanic added on. By the way, I agree that a core fix should focus on core SRD rules, but for my personal perposes, I want this core class to work well in a Forgotten Realms campaign with lots of stuff available from the Complete-splat books. Please donot take that as discouragement on discussion.
PhaedrusXY 03-21-05, 05:44 PM	*chuckle*well im argueing this to the most abusive way i can.No, you're ignoring part of the definition of the feat, which is indeed breaking the rules. If you go to the C.O. board, where people break things for a living, you'll see that they consider using the extra turning attempts from the Elemental Domains unusable to fuel Divine Metamagic and any other Divine feat. Do whatever you want in your own games, but don't try to come here and convince us that what you're doing is the "official" way to do it, when you even admit yourself that you're ignoring part of the rules to do whatever you want. :nonono:
Sir Gibalot 03-21-05, 05:59 PM	Well said. Divine is divine, elemental is elemental. I thought all gusts of wind were pretty neutral anyway ;-). It's clear what the book means.
Lina_Inverse 03-21-05, 06:07 PM	Well said. Divine is divine, elemental is elemental. I thought all gusts of wind were pretty neutral anyway ;-). It's clear what the book means. ironiclly elemental smiteing is divine feat too. but since its a pointless arguement ill concede under the might of intent.
robertliguori 03-21-05, 06:40 PM	From the SRD Fire domain: Turn or destroy water creatures as a good cleric turns undead. Rebuke, command, or bolster fire creatures as an evil cleric rebukes undead. Use these abilities a total number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. This granted power is a supernatural ability. I see nothing in there about using elemental energy. It does say you do them as a good/evil clerid does to undead, and the clerics do unto undead with positive and negative energy. Barring the 3.0 documentation, it seems to me like it works.