Cleric and Sorc/Wiz campaign changes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cleric and Sorc/Wiz campaign changes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Thelon Fairblade
11-09-05, 09:51 AM Cleric: I want to make them spontaneous casters. Their list of available spells will be pretty big (compared to Sorcerer), but strictly limited by their patron's domain options / portfolio.

For example, a cleric of pelor (Sun, Healing, Fire, Protection) cannot request Inflict Wounds, Air Walk, Create Water, etc. But Light, Flame Strike, Magic Vestments, etc. are all "Known" spells.

(If this variety is too limited, I will allow non-opposed spells at some spell level penalty; i.e. Create Water is opposed to Fire, so not allowed, but Air Walk is just "unrelated"; +1 spell level.)

Slight powerdown: Clerics become "mini-MAD"; WIS determines max spell level and bonus spells per day, but CHA influences DC.

Sorcerer and Wizard would be replaced by Mage, who combines the two concepts. First, he too will be "mini-MAD", with INT determining bonus spells and max spell level, but CHA determining DC. Second, he will be a spontaneous spellcaster... with a spell book. There will be three classes of spells for the Mage: Known, Studied, and Prepared. A Mage will "Know" a number of spells equal to the Sorcerer Spells Known chart, minus 1 per spell level (min 1 spell known); these spells are always available. He can "Study" up to half his INT bonus each day (no bonus if only 1 spell Known at that level), essentially gaining the ability to change one "Known" spell each day. Lastly, he can give up one or more spell *slots* each day by preparing any *two* spells in his spellbook into that slot. At casting, he can choose to expend that Prepared Slot to cast either of the two spells "loaded" into it.

Example Mage 6: (Sorc Known Chart: 7/4/2/1; Spells/Day: 6/6/5/3)
INT 15, CHA 17
Known 1st level (4-1 = 3): Magic Missile, Color Spray, Grease
Studied 1st level (+2 bonus / 2 = 1): any 1 1st-level spell from spellbook.
Prepared 1st level: trades in 1 of his 6 spell slots to prepare "Mage Armor or Unseen Servant".

Known 2nd level (2-1 = 1): Alter Self
Studied 2nd level (+2 bonus / 2 = 1): any 2nd level spell from spellbook.
Prepared 2nd level: trades in 1 of 5 spell slots for a "Web or Glitterdust" slot.

Known 3rd level (1-1 = min 1): Fireball
Studied 2nd level (0, due to only 1 spell known): (nothing)
Prepared 3rd level: trades in 1 of 3 spell slots for a "Dispel Magic or Fly" slot.

So he ends up with:
6 cantrip slots, (7 known)
6 1st-level slots; Magic Missile, Color Spray, Grease, (any 1) with 5 slots; the 6th is "Mage Armor or Unseen Servant" only.
5 2nd-level slots; Alter Self, and (any 1) with 4 slots; "Web or Glitterdust" with the 5th
3 3rd-level slots; Fireball with 2 slots; "Dispel Magic or Fly" with the 3rd.

Studied and Prepared spells can only be selected with the presence of the mage's spellbook, and are limited by the spells in that book - he does not gain automatic spells for his book every level.

This gives a spellcaster who knows several spells by heart, but can still reference his notes to brush up on a few task-specific spells as needed, and still wants to search out lost tomes and whatnot in order to expand his flexibility.

All other limitations would be kept (arcane spell failure, d4 hp, 1/2 BAB, etc.). By default, the Mage would gain 1 bonus feat at 1st only, with which to take a familiar or some other magic-related feat (metamagic, item creation, etc.). No other bonus feats or class abliities.

Thoughts?
Quirriff
11-09-05, 05:18 PM For example, a cleric of pelor (Sun, Healing, Fire, Protection) cannot request Create Water.

The Cleric of healing isn't giving out water to the sick and injured who really need it?
Jaxgaret
11-09-05, 06:04 PM The Cleric of healing isn't giving out water to the sick and injured who really need it?

Heh. Nice catch Quirriff. And on the stated example, no less.
MindWandererB
11-09-05, 06:49 PM Sound like your cleric is kind of a divine Warmage. Use the Sorcerer progression for spells per day (that's what the warmage uses) and come up with a class list of available spells. The Warmage gets approximately 10-11 spells per level from 1-4 and 6-7 per level from 5-9. If you want, you can create two lists: one of "core spells" that all clerics get, and one of "deity spells" that you only get if you worship that particular deity.

Your arcane caster sounds complicated but not unreasonable. Be prepared for the game to bog down a bit- you may have the "best of both worlds" as far as abilities, but you also have the "worst of both worlds" for play expediency.
Thelon Fairblade
11-10-05, 01:37 PM Quirriff - He (the cleric of a healing fire god) can give out water all he wants... he just can't magically create it. Maybe the Healing god in your campaign setting is a water-god, and has different spells available.

MindWandererB - I don't quite understand the "divine warmage" reference, but your comment about an "all" or "core" list separate from the diety-specific list has merit as well. I'd be torn on many spells, though. For example, "bless" seems pretty straightforward, should be a "core" spell... but maybe the evil gods don't grant "bless" for their allies, but rather "Curse" or "Doom" instead.

Dispel Magic seems like a "core" spell, but were do you start crossing into the "God of Magic" portfolio?
Evil DM Mk3
11-10-05, 02:06 PM Nice idea, this is how I would do it.

Create a core list of spells, include ALL inflict/cure spells (the nuts and bolts of the explanation of how a cleric works, de-core one you have to de-core the other), summon spells, buffs and a few iconic spells like flame strike, aminate objects and storm of vengance. Make sure there is at least 1/3 of the old list worth of spells at every level.

Create Domain lists that add on the the core list, not domain spells, domain lists. For exaple the healing domain might add the remove poison/disease kind of spells. Maybe 3-4 spells per level, less at higher levels. Keep the domian un-modified. That way the "core" spell list of clerics are determined by their domains, but the overall mechanic isnt gutted.

Then make them spontanious, with the domain slot for domain spells only but they chose which of the two upon use.

Nice and flexable and no whining players who point out (quite quite rightly) that the cleric gets nerfed if they have to chose their curing spells.

If fact il knock up the first two levels of the "core list" and one domain so you can see what I mean.
0=Cure minour wounds, Detect magic, Detect poison, Inflict minour wounds, Read magic.
1=Bless, Bane, Comprihend languages, Cure light wounds, Detect g/e/l/c, Detect Undead, Divine favour, Endure elements, Inflict light wounds, Protection form g/e/l/c, Sanctuary, Shield of faith, Summon monster level 1
Example doamin spells
Good domain
0=Guidance, Purify food and drink, resistance.
1=Bless water, Entorpic shield, Hide form undead, Magic stone, Remove fear.
Mirikon
11-10-05, 08:04 PM To be honest, I really don't care for this setup. If you want to have a spontaneous divine caster, grab the Favored Soul. But your ideas for changing the cleric, sorcerer, and wizard just rub me the wrong way. Even if I was going to be something other than a divine or arcane caster, I would probably not play in a campaign like that.
Seeker of Undeath
11-10-05, 08:12 PM To be honest, I really don't care for this setup. If you want to have a spontaneous divine caster, grab the Favored Soul. But your ideas for changing the cleric, sorcerer, and wizard just rub me the wrong way. Even if I was going to be something other than a divine or arcane caster, I would probably not play in a campaign like that.Well said. This sums up my thoughts exceptionally well so I'll just say "ditto".
Thelon Fairblade
11-15-05, 10:50 AM Mirikon and Seeker of Undeath: the idea in concept was to make the spellcasters a little more flexible and a little more flavored, while not increasing their power. So clerics now must truly think about and embrace the portfolios of their gods... St. Cuthbert and Selune are going to have very different clerics, as their portfolios are very different. Mages are going to be more "novel-like" in their casting, having a selection of spells that they know, but still retain the ability and option to "Study-up" on an unusual spell for an unusual circumstance.

the mini-MAD shift of ability focus is to bring the casters a little more in line with the non-casters at higher levels. It doesn't impact them too much at low-level, but now a high-level caster must improve at least two stats to stay at full power instead of one... while the noncasters continue to need 3 stats (STR, DEX, CON). This is part compensation for the flexibility power-up, and part GM's-opinion-of-necessary nerf.

Evil DM Mk3: I agree that the main list needs to be selected carefully to retain playability regardless of the cleric's domains. No one wants to play a cleric who can *only* heal and grow plants, for example. But I don't want obviously portfolio-aligned spells (Flame Strike) to be on the main list.

However, I'm thinking I could steal a page from the Expanded Psionics Handbook -- perhaps some iconic spells are available to all, in a weaker form, while the apporpriate portfolio makes it stronger? For example, perhaps there is a "Divine Strike" spell at 5th level that inflicts "1d4 per caster level, max 15d4", while the fire god's clerics retain Flame Strike for 1f6 per caster level....?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thelon Fairblade 11-09-05, 09:51 AM	Cleric: I want to make them spontaneous casters. Their list of available spells will be pretty big (compared to Sorcerer), but strictly limited by their patron's domain options / portfolio. For example, a cleric of pelor (Sun, Healing, Fire, Protection) cannot request Inflict Wounds, Air Walk, Create Water, etc. But Light, Flame Strike, Magic Vestments, etc. are all "Known" spells. (If this variety is too limited, I will allow non-opposed spells at some spell level penalty; i.e. Create Water is opposed to Fire, so not allowed, but Air Walk is just "unrelated"; +1 spell level.) Slight powerdown: Clerics become "mini-MAD"; WIS determines max spell level and bonus spells per day, but CHA influences DC. Sorcerer and Wizard would be replaced by Mage, who combines the two concepts. First, he too will be "mini-MAD", with INT determining bonus spells and max spell level, but CHA determining DC. Second, he will be a spontaneous spellcaster... with a spell book. There will be three classes of spells for the Mage: Known, Studied, and Prepared. A Mage will "Know" a number of spells equal to the Sorcerer Spells Known chart, minus 1 per spell level (min 1 spell known); these spells are always available. He can "Study" up to half his INT bonus each day (no bonus if only 1 spell Known at that level), essentially gaining the ability to change one "Known" spell each day. Lastly, he can give up one or more spell slots each day by preparing any two spells in his spellbook into that slot. At casting, he can choose to expend that Prepared Slot to cast either of the two spells "loaded" into it. Example Mage 6: (Sorc Known Chart: 7/4/2/1; Spells/Day: 6/6/5/3) INT 15, CHA 17 Known 1st level (4-1 = 3): Magic Missile, Color Spray, Grease Studied 1st level (+2 bonus / 2 = 1): any 1 1st-level spell from spellbook. Prepared 1st level: trades in 1 of his 6 spell slots to prepare "Mage Armor or Unseen Servant". Known 2nd level (2-1 = 1): Alter Self Studied 2nd level (+2 bonus / 2 = 1): any 2nd level spell from spellbook. Prepared 2nd level: trades in 1 of 5 spell slots for a "Web or Glitterdust" slot. Known 3rd level (1-1 = min 1): Fireball Studied 2nd level (0, due to only 1 spell known): (nothing) Prepared 3rd level: trades in 1 of 3 spell slots for a "Dispel Magic or Fly" slot. So he ends up with: 6 cantrip slots, (7 known) 6 1st-level slots; Magic Missile, Color Spray, Grease, (any 1) with 5 slots; the 6th is "Mage Armor or Unseen Servant" only. 5 2nd-level slots; Alter Self, and (any 1) with 4 slots; "Web or Glitterdust" with the 5th 3 3rd-level slots; Fireball with 2 slots; "Dispel Magic or Fly" with the 3rd. Studied and Prepared spells can only be selected with the presence of the mage's spellbook, and are limited by the spells in that book - he does not gain automatic spells for his book every level. This gives a spellcaster who knows several spells by heart, but can still reference his notes to brush up on a few task-specific spells as needed, and still wants to search out lost tomes and whatnot in order to expand his flexibility. All other limitations would be kept (arcane spell failure, d4 hp, 1/2 BAB, etc.). By default, the Mage would gain 1 bonus feat at 1st only, with which to take a familiar or some other magic-related feat (metamagic, item creation, etc.). No other bonus feats or class abliities. Thoughts?
Quirriff 11-09-05, 05:18 PM	For example, a cleric of pelor (Sun, Healing, Fire, Protection) cannot request Create Water. The Cleric of healing isn't giving out water to the sick and injured who really need it?
Jaxgaret 11-09-05, 06:04 PM	The Cleric of healing isn't giving out water to the sick and injured who really need it? Heh. Nice catch Quirriff. And on the stated example, no less.
MindWandererB 11-09-05, 06:49 PM	Sound like your cleric is kind of a divine Warmage. Use the Sorcerer progression for spells per day (that's what the warmage uses) and come up with a class list of available spells. The Warmage gets approximately 10-11 spells per level from 1-4 and 6-7 per level from 5-9. If you want, you can create two lists: one of "core spells" that all clerics get, and one of "deity spells" that you only get if you worship that particular deity. Your arcane caster sounds complicated but not unreasonable. Be prepared for the game to bog down a bit- you may have the "best of both worlds" as far as abilities, but you also have the "worst of both worlds" for play expediency.
Thelon Fairblade 11-10-05, 01:37 PM	Quirriff - He (the cleric of a healing fire god) can give out water all he wants... he just can't magically create it. Maybe the Healing god in your campaign setting is a water-god, and has different spells available. MindWandererB - I don't quite understand the "divine warmage" reference, but your comment about an "all" or "core" list separate from the diety-specific list has merit as well. I'd be torn on many spells, though. For example, "bless" seems pretty straightforward, should be a "core" spell... but maybe the evil gods don't grant "bless" for their allies, but rather "Curse" or "Doom" instead. Dispel Magic seems like a "core" spell, but were do you start crossing into the "God of Magic" portfolio?
Evil DM Mk3 11-10-05, 02:06 PM	Nice idea, this is how I would do it. Create a core list of spells, include ALL inflict/cure spells (the nuts and bolts of the explanation of how a cleric works, de-core one you have to de-core the other), summon spells, buffs and a few iconic spells like flame strike, aminate objects and storm of vengance. Make sure there is at least 1/3 of the old list worth of spells at every level. Create Domain lists that add on the the core list, not domain spells, domain lists. For exaple the healing domain might add the remove poison/disease kind of spells. Maybe 3-4 spells per level, less at higher levels. Keep the domian un-modified. That way the "core" spell list of clerics are determined by their domains, but the overall mechanic isnt gutted. Then make them spontanious, with the domain slot for domain spells only but they chose which of the two upon use. Nice and flexable and no whining players who point out (quite quite rightly) that the cleric gets nerfed if they have to chose their curing spells. If fact il knock up the first two levels of the "core list" and one domain so you can see what I mean. 0=Cure minour wounds, Detect magic, Detect poison, Inflict minour wounds, Read magic. 1=Bless, Bane, Comprihend languages, Cure light wounds, Detect g/e/l/c, Detect Undead, Divine favour, Endure elements, Inflict light wounds, Protection form g/e/l/c, Sanctuary, Shield of faith, Summon monster level 1 Example doamin spells Good domain 0=Guidance, Purify food and drink, resistance. 1=Bless water, Entorpic shield, Hide form undead, Magic stone, Remove fear.
Mirikon 11-10-05, 08:04 PM	To be honest, I really don't care for this setup. If you want to have a spontaneous divine caster, grab the Favored Soul. But your ideas for changing the cleric, sorcerer, and wizard just rub me the wrong way. Even if I was going to be something other than a divine or arcane caster, I would probably not play in a campaign like that.
Seeker of Undeath 11-10-05, 08:12 PM	To be honest, I really don't care for this setup. If you want to have a spontaneous divine caster, grab the Favored Soul. But your ideas for changing the cleric, sorcerer, and wizard just rub me the wrong way. Even if I was going to be something other than a divine or arcane caster, I would probably not play in a campaign like that.Well said. This sums up my thoughts exceptionally well so I'll just say "ditto".
Thelon Fairblade 11-15-05, 10:50 AM	Mirikon and Seeker of Undeath: the idea in concept was to make the spellcasters a little more flexible and a little more flavored, while not increasing their power. So clerics now must truly think about and embrace the portfolios of their gods... St. Cuthbert and Selune are going to have very different clerics, as their portfolios are very different. Mages are going to be more "novel-like" in their casting, having a selection of spells that they know, but still retain the ability and option to "Study-up" on an unusual spell for an unusual circumstance. the mini-MAD shift of ability focus is to bring the casters a little more in line with the non-casters at higher levels. It doesn't impact them too much at low-level, but now a high-level caster must improve at least two stats to stay at full power instead of one... while the noncasters continue to need 3 stats (STR, DEX, CON). This is part compensation for the flexibility power-up, and part GM's-opinion-of-necessary nerf. Evil DM Mk3: I agree that the main list needs to be selected carefully to retain playability regardless of the cleric's domains. No one wants to play a cleric who can only heal and grow plants, for example. But I don't want obviously portfolio-aligned spells (Flame Strike) to be on the main list. However, I'm thinking I could steal a page from the Expanded Psionics Handbook -- perhaps some iconic spells are available to all, in a weaker form, while the apporpriate portfolio makes it stronger? For example, perhaps there is a "Divine Strike" spell at 5th level that inflicts "1d4 per caster level, max 15d4", while the fire god's clerics retain Flame Strike for 1f6 per caster level....?