cleric archer [Archive] - Wizards Community

cleric archer [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Negueb
11-14-07, 09:34 AM i heard a lot of times that the best possible archer build was claric 20, and i was never really sure why. what spells make cleric such good archers?

is there a spell in some obscure splatbook that i'm missing?

i was wondering if anyone could give me a hand in this one, thank you in advance
dman11235
11-14-07, 09:46 AM Zen Archery. Use your wisdom instead of dex. From CAdventurer, I believe. If not, one of the completes. I'm not sure if it's the best archer build ever, but it's not a bad build.
The_Shaman
11-14-07, 09:57 AM i heard a lot of times that the best possible archer build was claric 20, and i was never really sure why. what spells make cleric such good archers?

is there a spell in some obscure splatbook that i'm missing?

i was wondering if anyone could give me a hand in this one, thank you in advance

Well, you get some good buffs, domains that can act as bonus feats (elf, war, time, etc), and with zen archery you don't rely on that many stats. Divine Favor alone allows a cleric to match the BAB of the warrior classes, and it's a first level spell. Stuff like antilife shell or repulsion is something most archers can't even dream about. Now, I'm not quite convinced that Cleric 20 is the best archer possible, but it's powerful. Imagine what an archery-related cleric can do with a quiver full of spell storing arrows :D

Complete Champion supposedly has more on how to use knowledge skills for bonus damage, but I don't have it.
dman11235
11-14-07, 10:06 AM Yeah, it does. Don't remember the mechanic of it though. I think it's knowledge devotion though. (CChampion bonus damage thing).
goawayugh
11-14-07, 10:33 AM As mentioned Zen Archery + divine power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm) (not favor) = Your attack bonus is as good as any normal archer. Zen Archery lets you use your Wis mod on ranged attack rolls, and divine power makes your BAB as a fighter for the duration of the spell. Add in full casting on top of that, and, well, there you go...

Q: What makes the best ____?
A: Cleric.
dman11235
11-14-07, 10:36 AM Divine favor helps too. Just not as much.
The_Shaman
11-14-07, 10:40 AM It's a first level spell, for crying out loud, what do you expect? By itself, it is enough to bring your attack bonus on par with a fighter or a ranger, and it also improves your damage. Divine power improves your BAB and strength, which is even better, but you get it later.

Oh, and the two stack. Don't you just love magic?
dman11235
11-14-07, 10:46 AM Oh yeah! Righteous might won't be that much of a help to you though, unfortunately. The other basic buff spells still work though. Conviction, Shield of Faith, etc.
goawayugh
11-14-07, 10:50 AM I wasn't saying that divine favor sucks, just that is was divine power that changes your BAB. Divine favor is definitely a good spell for a combat focused Cleric. It will help a lot with your attacks (and damage as well), but it doesn't give you the iterative attacks that a high BAB will give. Though, for a fisrst level spell, it's AWESOME.
dman11235
11-14-07, 10:53 AM Yeah, I thought you were implying that, but then I realized that you weren't. Dang sleep deprivation. It is a great 1st level though. Don't think I'll ever go melee cleric again without a 7th level spell slot persisting it.
TheSeasonOfFire
11-14-07, 11:05 AM Oh yeah! Righteous might won't be that much of a help to you though, unfortunately. The other basic buff spells still work though. Conviction, Shield of Faith, etc.

Righteous Might will help a cleric archer tons, since his size would increase. Arrows fired from a larger launcher cause more hurtin' ;)
dman11235
11-14-07, 11:30 AM Yes, but not much, and the strength won't help either. All I'm saying is that it won't help as much as it is normally.
Argaud
11-14-07, 12:06 PM Righteous Might will help a cleric archer tons, since his size would increase. Arrows fired from a larger launcher cause more hurtin' ;)
Arrows from a composite longbow would go from 1d8 to 2d6 damage, adding a +2.5 to overall damage.

But it is unlikely the bow is built to handle the +4 strength increase that comes with RM, it would mean the cleric cannot use it without RM.

And since the cleric becomes large, he gets a -1 to hit. So all in all he is trading a -1 to hit for a +2.5 to damage. This means Righteous Might is far more useful for melee clerics than for archers. Divine Favor, which gives +3 to hit and damage at level 9 (just when clerics get RM) is a much better spell for clerics, and four levels lower. If the cleric has spare level 5 slots he can even make it quickened. Thus a level 9 cleric can cast Divine Power and quickened Divine Favor in one round and instantaneously become a very good archer if he has Zen Archery.
TheSeasonOfFire
11-14-07, 12:15 PM Arrows from a composite longbow would go from 1d8 to 2d6 damage, adding a +2.5 to overall damage.

But it is unlikely the bow is built to handle the +4 strength increase that comes with RM, it would mean the cleric cannot use it without RM.

RM gives a +4 size bonus to Strength, and all equipment increase in size. So, the bow would become big, but the cleric would also become big. He would be able to handle the bow just fine since they both grow.

And since the cleric becomes large, he gets a -1 to hit. So all in all he is trading a -1 to hit for a +2.5 to damage. This means Righteous Might is far more useful for melee clerics than for archers. Divine Favor, which gives +3 to hit and damage at level 9 (just when clerics get RM) is a much better spell for clerics, and four levels lower.

Yes, but please do not forget the +2 size bonus to Constitution, +2 enhancement bonus to your natural armor, and damage reduction 3/evil you get with RM. Size bonuses are stackable with morale/luck/etc, so they are a prime commodity. If you plan to never cast Prayer or Recitation (luck bonuses) for your party, Divine Favor is nice. Otherwise, I like Righteous Might.
goawayugh
11-14-07, 12:39 PM RM gives a +4 size bonus to Strength, and all equipment increase in size. So, the bow would become big, but the cleric would also become big. He would be able to handle the bow just fine since they both grow.You missed Argaud's point. A bow has to be specifically made to deal extra damage based on Str mod. To be able to add your increased Str mod to the damage, the bow would have to have been originally made to handle it. Which would mean that while not under righteous might, you would have penalties when using your bow. Sure you can still fire your bow while RMed just fine, but you won't be able to add your increased Str to the damage.
TheSeasonOfFire
11-14-07, 12:44 PM You missed Argaud's point. A bow has to be specifically made to deal extra damage based on Str mod. To be able to add your increased Str mod to the damage, the bow would have to have been originally made to handle it. Which would mean that while not under righteous might, you would have penalties when using your bow. Sure you can still fire your bow while RMed just fine, but you won't be able to add your increased Str to the damage.

I never said you could, I was only referring to the damage your projectiles would have from being shot from a larger launcher. So, if the cleric had a long bow made for say, Str 18, he would still only add +4 to damage. But, each arrow would do 2d6+4 as opposed to 1d8+4 (or, 6-16 as opposed to 5-12) while he is under the effects of RM.

Instead of this being a Righteous Might versus Divine Favor debate, I think the most sound plan would be to utilize them both since they give bonuses that stack with each other, though I think casting Prayer or Recitation would give about the same in the way of a Luck bonus to the entire party, cleric included.
goawayugh
11-14-07, 12:54 PM I never said you could, I was only referring to the damage your projectiles would have from being shot from a larger launcher. So, if the cleric had a long bow made for say, Str 18, he would still only add +4 to damage. But, each arrow would do 2d6+4 as opposed to 1d8+4 (or, 6-16 as opposed to 5-12) while he is under the effects of RM.

Very true. While RM CAN help an archer, I would probably rather reserve that high a slot for something else. It is much better for melee types.
The_Shaman
11-14-07, 04:37 PM I think there were bows that automatically adjusted their strength rating - it might have been one of the CDivine relics, but probably other magic items had it as well. As for righteous might, iirc there's no drawback to using a composite bow with strength lesser than you have, but you simply won't be able to utilize some of that sweet strength rating.
Grandpa_Gort
11-14-07, 05:19 PM Or, just buy 2 bows: a high +Str composite and a backup to use when your Righteous Might has been dispelled/worn off. By the time you get 5th level spells, you can afford two magic bows... in many campaigns.

As for a cleric archer, never seen one. Clerics should use non-edged, non-pointy weapons, dag-nab-it!

/dies of old age.
nrseer
11-14-07, 05:48 PM couldn't you do something similar with a favored soul? especially if his deity favored weapon was a long bow.

Also the thing The_Shaman was talking about allows you to perform a knowledge check and you can increase the damage done to a specific group of monster based on your knowledge skill and check (such as knowledge (arcana) for dragons, and knowledge (religion) for vampires) I think it starts at 15 for +1 and goes up every 5DC but I could be wrong.
The_Shaman
11-14-07, 05:53 PM You could, certainly. The cleric has the advantage of knowing every spell in every supplement, though, while the FS is more fluid with the few spells s/he does know. The cleric's domains can rival the bonus feats Favored Souls get, and indeed some domain powers are bonus feats :) . The FS, however, might need to find a way to get domain spells on their list; I have thought about giving them 2 less spells known/level (which puts them on par with the sorcerer) and instead giving them 2 domains with the spells as bonus spells known. This way, they will get a thematic spellcasting that is more representative of their deity's actual portfolio and thus of their link to their deity.
runestar
11-14-07, 09:25 PM Elf domain gives point blank shot.
War domain can give weapon focus: bow.
The_Shaman
11-15-07, 07:00 AM Time Domain: Improved Initiative.
1 ton ghost
11-15-07, 11:19 AM my friend used the Cleric variant in PHB II for an elven cleric.
-basically, you trade out Spontaneous Cures for 1 of the domain types to which he chose Elf (free Point Blank Shot to boot).
-this basically let him True Strike at will, failing that, a wand sufficed now that it was on the spell list. Cat's Grace also made frequent appearances
-coupled w/ his Travel domain and the Fly it entailed, quite deadly.
-now, so good at ranged, he got to stay back and engage more frequently and not endanger the healing pool for hte others as well.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Negueb 11-14-07, 09:34 AM	i heard a lot of times that the best possible archer build was claric 20, and i was never really sure why. what spells make cleric such good archers? is there a spell in some obscure splatbook that i'm missing? i was wondering if anyone could give me a hand in this one, thank you in advance
dman11235 11-14-07, 09:46 AM	Zen Archery. Use your wisdom instead of dex. From CAdventurer, I believe. If not, one of the completes. I'm not sure if it's the best archer build ever, but it's not a bad build.
The_Shaman 11-14-07, 09:57 AM	i heard a lot of times that the best possible archer build was claric 20, and i was never really sure why. what spells make cleric such good archers? is there a spell in some obscure splatbook that i'm missing? i was wondering if anyone could give me a hand in this one, thank you in advance Well, you get some good buffs, domains that can act as bonus feats (elf, war, time, etc), and with zen archery you don't rely on that many stats. Divine Favor alone allows a cleric to match the BAB of the warrior classes, and it's a first level spell. Stuff like antilife shell or repulsion is something most archers can't even dream about. Now, I'm not quite convinced that Cleric 20 is the best archer possible, but it's powerful. Imagine what an archery-related cleric can do with a quiver full of spell storing arrows :D Complete Champion supposedly has more on how to use knowledge skills for bonus damage, but I don't have it.
dman11235 11-14-07, 10:06 AM	Yeah, it does. Don't remember the mechanic of it though. I think it's knowledge devotion though. (CChampion bonus damage thing).
goawayugh 11-14-07, 10:33 AM	As mentioned Zen Archery + divine power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm) (not favor) = Your attack bonus is as good as any normal archer. Zen Archery lets you use your Wis mod on ranged attack rolls, and divine power makes your BAB as a fighter for the duration of the spell. Add in full casting on top of that, and, well, there you go... Q: What makes the best ____? A: Cleric.
dman11235 11-14-07, 10:36 AM	Divine favor helps too. Just not as much.
The_Shaman 11-14-07, 10:40 AM	It's a first level spell, for crying out loud, what do you expect? By itself, it is enough to bring your attack bonus on par with a fighter or a ranger, and it also improves your damage. Divine power improves your BAB and strength, which is even better, but you get it later. Oh, and the two stack. Don't you just love magic?
dman11235 11-14-07, 10:46 AM	Oh yeah! Righteous might won't be that much of a help to you though, unfortunately. The other basic buff spells still work though. Conviction, Shield of Faith, etc.
goawayugh 11-14-07, 10:50 AM	I wasn't saying that divine favor sucks, just that is was divine power that changes your BAB. Divine favor is definitely a good spell for a combat focused Cleric. It will help a lot with your attacks (and damage as well), but it doesn't give you the iterative attacks that a high BAB will give. Though, for a fisrst level spell, it's AWESOME.
dman11235 11-14-07, 10:53 AM	Yeah, I thought you were implying that, but then I realized that you weren't. Dang sleep deprivation. It is a great 1st level though. Don't think I'll ever go melee cleric again without a 7th level spell slot persisting it.
TheSeasonOfFire 11-14-07, 11:05 AM	Oh yeah! Righteous might won't be that much of a help to you though, unfortunately. The other basic buff spells still work though. Conviction, Shield of Faith, etc. Righteous Might will help a cleric archer tons, since his size would increase. Arrows fired from a larger launcher cause more hurtin' ;)
dman11235 11-14-07, 11:30 AM	Yes, but not much, and the strength won't help either. All I'm saying is that it won't help as much as it is normally.
Argaud 11-14-07, 12:06 PM	Righteous Might will help a cleric archer tons, since his size would increase. Arrows fired from a larger launcher cause more hurtin' ;) Arrows from a composite longbow would go from 1d8 to 2d6 damage, adding a +2.5 to overall damage. But it is unlikely the bow is built to handle the +4 strength increase that comes with RM, it would mean the cleric cannot use it without RM. And since the cleric becomes large, he gets a -1 to hit. So all in all he is trading a -1 to hit for a +2.5 to damage. This means Righteous Might is far more useful for melee clerics than for archers. Divine Favor, which gives +3 to hit and damage at level 9 (just when clerics get RM) is a much better spell for clerics, and four levels lower. If the cleric has spare level 5 slots he can even make it quickened. Thus a level 9 cleric can cast Divine Power and quickened Divine Favor in one round and instantaneously become a very good archer if he has Zen Archery.
TheSeasonOfFire 11-14-07, 12:15 PM	Arrows from a composite longbow would go from 1d8 to 2d6 damage, adding a +2.5 to overall damage. But it is unlikely the bow is built to handle the +4 strength increase that comes with RM, it would mean the cleric cannot use it without RM. RM gives a +4 size bonus to Strength, and all equipment increase in size. So, the bow would become big, but the cleric would also become big. He would be able to handle the bow just fine since they both grow. And since the cleric becomes large, he gets a -1 to hit. So all in all he is trading a -1 to hit for a +2.5 to damage. This means Righteous Might is far more useful for melee clerics than for archers. Divine Favor, which gives +3 to hit and damage at level 9 (just when clerics get RM) is a much better spell for clerics, and four levels lower. Yes, but please do not forget the +2 size bonus to Constitution, +2 enhancement bonus to your natural armor, and damage reduction 3/evil you get with RM. Size bonuses are stackable with morale/luck/etc, so they are a prime commodity. If you plan to never cast Prayer or Recitation (luck bonuses) for your party, Divine Favor is nice. Otherwise, I like Righteous Might.
goawayugh 11-14-07, 12:39 PM	RM gives a +4 size bonus to Strength, and all equipment increase in size. So, the bow would become big, but the cleric would also become big. He would be able to handle the bow just fine since they both grow.You missed Argaud's point. A bow has to be specifically made to deal extra damage based on Str mod. To be able to add your increased Str mod to the damage, the bow would have to have been originally made to handle it. Which would mean that while not under righteous might, you would have penalties when using your bow. Sure you can still fire your bow while RMed just fine, but you won't be able to add your increased Str to the damage.
TheSeasonOfFire 11-14-07, 12:44 PM	You missed Argaud's point. A bow has to be specifically made to deal extra damage based on Str mod. To be able to add your increased Str mod to the damage, the bow would have to have been originally made to handle it. Which would mean that while not under righteous might, you would have penalties when using your bow. Sure you can still fire your bow while RMed just fine, but you won't be able to add your increased Str to the damage. I never said you could, I was only referring to the damage your projectiles would have from being shot from a larger launcher. So, if the cleric had a long bow made for say, Str 18, he would still only add +4 to damage. But, each arrow would do 2d6+4 as opposed to 1d8+4 (or, 6-16 as opposed to 5-12) while he is under the effects of RM. Instead of this being a Righteous Might versus Divine Favor debate, I think the most sound plan would be to utilize them both since they give bonuses that stack with each other, though I think casting Prayer or Recitation would give about the same in the way of a Luck bonus to the entire party, cleric included.
goawayugh 11-14-07, 12:54 PM	I never said you could, I was only referring to the damage your projectiles would have from being shot from a larger launcher. So, if the cleric had a long bow made for say, Str 18, he would still only add +4 to damage. But, each arrow would do 2d6+4 as opposed to 1d8+4 (or, 6-16 as opposed to 5-12) while he is under the effects of RM. Very true. While RM CAN help an archer, I would probably rather reserve that high a slot for something else. It is much better for melee types.
The_Shaman 11-14-07, 04:37 PM	I think there were bows that automatically adjusted their strength rating - it might have been one of the CDivine relics, but probably other magic items had it as well. As for righteous might, iirc there's no drawback to using a composite bow with strength lesser than you have, but you simply won't be able to utilize some of that sweet strength rating.
Grandpa_Gort 11-14-07, 05:19 PM	Or, just buy 2 bows: a high +Str composite and a backup to use when your Righteous Might has been dispelled/worn off. By the time you get 5th level spells, you can afford two magic bows... in many campaigns. As for a cleric archer, never seen one. Clerics should use non-edged, non-pointy weapons, dag-nab-it! /dies of old age.
nrseer 11-14-07, 05:48 PM	couldn't you do something similar with a favored soul? especially if his deity favored weapon was a long bow. Also the thing The_Shaman was talking about allows you to perform a knowledge check and you can increase the damage done to a specific group of monster based on your knowledge skill and check (such as knowledge (arcana) for dragons, and knowledge (religion) for vampires) I think it starts at 15 for +1 and goes up every 5DC but I could be wrong.
The_Shaman 11-14-07, 05:53 PM	You could, certainly. The cleric has the advantage of knowing every spell in every supplement, though, while the FS is more fluid with the few spells s/he does know. The cleric's domains can rival the bonus feats Favored Souls get, and indeed some domain powers are bonus feats :) . The FS, however, might need to find a way to get domain spells on their list; I have thought about giving them 2 less spells known/level (which puts them on par with the sorcerer) and instead giving them 2 domains with the spells as bonus spells known. This way, they will get a thematic spellcasting that is more representative of their deity's actual portfolio and thus of their link to their deity.
runestar 11-14-07, 09:25 PM	Elf domain gives point blank shot. War domain can give weapon focus: bow.
The_Shaman 11-15-07, 07:00 AM	Time Domain: Improved Initiative.
1 ton ghost 11-15-07, 11:19 AM	my friend used the Cleric variant in PHB II for an elven cleric. -basically, you trade out Spontaneous Cures for 1 of the domain types to which he chose Elf (free Point Blank Shot to boot). -this basically let him True Strike at will, failing that, a wand sufficed now that it was on the spell list. Cat's Grace also made frequent appearances -coupled w/ his Travel domain and the Fly it entailed, quite deadly. -now, so good at ranged, he got to stay back and engage more frequently and not endanger the healing pool for hte others as well.