Cleric, fighter, wizard monk thing. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cleric, fighter, wizard monk thing. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Darson
10-06-04, 06:09 PM OK, here is what I am trying to do.

I have a group of Clerics in my game world that

1, Don't beleive in spell casting.
2, Follow a god of "internal spiritual growth",
3, are not monks.

What I want is a cleric base class, that does not cast spells, is a primary front line fighter, has permenant spell like abilities ALWAYS active, and is not a monk.

My first idea was to just turn this entire group into monks, but what I want is something very different.

What I NEED from you guys is not setting or story rules. I know where this class is going, how it got there and all that.

I need play balance.

The Class will have cleric HD, saves, BA. The Class will get Martial weapons, but will only be capable of light or medium armor.

The class will NOT gain spells or any other ability to activate anything resembling a magical effect. Including wands or other spell completion items.

The class will gain permenant magical abilities, or at will abilities. Another words, The class may be able to NOT use an ability if doing so would be a detrement.

The abilities must only affect, or strongly affect, the class. comprehend languages is fine, fireball is not. Cure spells are NOT ok, Transfering wounds from someone onto the cleric is.

This class should have really nice abilities. LOts of permanent spell like abilities. I am not sure how exactly to do that. I know that with a few months of play testing I can balance this class, but I have always been extremly happy with the replies I have seen here. I know that many of you have a very good understanding of the mechanics that create play balance.
It should Look broken, but it will not be because it will not have the BA, or hit points of a fighter. It will not have the spell selection of the cleric.

In short PLEASE, give suggestions on how to make this work, and if there is anyone more interested I will gladly discusse the specifics of the class
SmiloDan
10-06-04, 06:37 PM It sounds like they are going to be self-buffers, for the most part.

Maybe they get one 0 level ability at 1st level, and another one every even level, which cannot exceed half their class level. Caster level would be equal to class level.

Level Ability
1. 0 level spell
2. 1st level spell
3.
4. 2nd level spell
5.
6. 3rd level spell
7.
8. 4th level spell
9.
10. 5th level spell
11.
12. 6th level spell
13.
14. 7th level spell
15.
16. 8th level spell
17.
18. 9th level spell
19.
20. 9th level spell

Of course, you can always choose a spell level lower than the one indicated by the level.

Coming up with a balanced spell list is up to you!

What are the class skills going to be? I can see Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Knowledge (all), Listen, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival as being good fits.

It's a neat concept.

If that seems too powerful, maybe:

Level Ability
1. 0 level spell
2. 1st level spell
3.
4.
5. 2nd level spell
6.
7.
8. 3rd level spell
9.
10.
11. 4th level spell
12.
13.
14. 5th level spell
15.
16.
17. 6th level spell
18.
19.
20. 7th level spell
shift244
10-06-04, 07:50 PM do you play 3.5?
do you happen to own Unearthed Arcana?

from what i read, it seems pretty close to the non-casting variant of the Paladin (which i think is in UA), albeit the no heavy armor and some other changes, like BAB, which i think if the class gains good fort and will saves, can sacrifice well enough the good BAB progression. and the slight drop of a HD should not mater too greatly (you'd lose about 1 HP per level) unless you plan to take the characters past the teen levels.
Chuza
10-06-04, 10:45 PM One could look at the Annointed Knight in Exalted Deeds and perhaps move it out to a 20 level class and expand the ointments.
:angel:

Seems the easiest way and most of it is mapped out. Admittedly the BAB is 1 per level with Druid/Cleric saves. That is easy enough to change to the 3/4 progression though.
darczero
10-06-04, 11:32 PM Interesting question... Smilodan had a great idea with the whole spellgranty thingy... Since you said they like to fight, Here's a few suggestions for some spells:

0 level: There really aren't many decent 0 level spells. Especially not to have permanently active. But if one of them "worships" a God of Magic, or would have been the type to take the Magic or Knowledge domain, maybe Read Magic 1/Day?

1st level: I can think of dozens of Wizard spells that are 1st level, but not many on the Divine side... Maybe Protection from (opposed alignment)? Or this could be where you place their Heal Others By Damaging Yourself power... Kinda like a modified Lay on Hands.

2nd Level: Shield of Faith. Grants Deflection bonus to AC based on caster level. Or any of the Stat buffing spells (Str, Dex, Con, or Wis; improve damage, HP, AC, or Saves).

3rd Level: As far as I remember, this is where Circles of Protection appear.

4th level: In 3.0, Greater Magic Weapon was the ultimate combat buffing spell for Clerics who fought a lot of creatures with DR. Of course, in 3.5, they've reworked the entire DR system; maybe something like the Monk's Unarmed Strike modifiers (magic, aligned, special materials at higher levels). Stoneskin (duration equal to rounds based on class level per day or something like that) might also work.

5th level: Most of the decent 5th level spells were either area based or combat type; the notable exception was Raise Dead. I have no idea. A power of similar level would be something like a movement ability (Dimension Door, etc.), a better Defensive ability (Displacement for a certain number of rounds or minutes per day), or another combat buff (add Wis bonus to attack or damage, maybe both?). There's lots of decent 4th and 5th level Wizard spells you may want to look at too (Dismissal could become Dismissing Strike, for example).

6th level: Again, there's more Wizard/Sorcerer spells that aid in combat at this level. By the time a normal Cleric could cast 6th level spells, they are 11th level; that's right around the time many players start taking PrC levels (if they haven't already). A Bonus Feat from the Fighter list could also work (such as giving them a one-time Weapon Specialization feat).

7th level: Running out of ideas... The Timeless Body ability comes to mind, but that doesn't really fit the concept; maybe turning Ability Drain into Ability Damage, or save bonus against level drains (I'm looking at Greater Restoration right now).

8th level: The Alignment-based Auras (Unholy Aura, Holy Aura, Shield of Law, Cloak of Chaos) are jumping out of the page at me.

9th level: I'm only seeing Foresight (which grants Insight bonus to several things) on the spell lists. Monks get their outsider transformation at 20th level; maybe give these "clerics" DR of 20/+1 (or 10/Magic) at this level.

There's lots you could do with this idea. I've decided to actually work out this class progression (it's a wonderful idea); I'll post it when I get done.
Darson
10-08-04, 08:59 PM The idea I had was to create domain "like" groupings of powers. The class would get 2-4 of these, speced out at variouse levels, but that is really just story flovor.

The real question is what and how many permant spell like abilities the class would be able to maintain on themselves without being broken. Truthfully I am pretty sure that they could maintain quite a few.

EDIT The build I worked up did not get all the abilities automatically. They were gained over the course of the characters career. 2 at level one and 1 additional every few levels (5 levels I think) after that. kinda like the old Ranger. If this makes no sence say so. I will explain, but the boss just told me to go home for the day and I am out of here. End Edit
I only went through the PHB, but in doing so I managed to creat what looked like a balanced class that maintained 6 perment spell like abilities active per spell level all the way thru 7th level spells. This was allowing spells at the same rate as sorcerers. A LOT of these are VERY week spells. the point in several WAS flavor.

I want to see your level build when you finish it...please.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Darson 10-06-04, 06:09 PM	OK, here is what I am trying to do. I have a group of Clerics in my game world that 1, Don't beleive in spell casting. 2, Follow a god of "internal spiritual growth", 3, are not monks. What I want is a cleric base class, that does not cast spells, is a primary front line fighter, has permenant spell like abilities ALWAYS active, and is not a monk. My first idea was to just turn this entire group into monks, but what I want is something very different. What I NEED from you guys is not setting or story rules. I know where this class is going, how it got there and all that. I need play balance. The Class will have cleric HD, saves, BA. The Class will get Martial weapons, but will only be capable of light or medium armor. The class will NOT gain spells or any other ability to activate anything resembling a magical effect. Including wands or other spell completion items. The class will gain permenant magical abilities, or at will abilities. Another words, The class may be able to NOT use an ability if doing so would be a detrement. The abilities must only affect, or strongly affect, the class. comprehend languages is fine, fireball is not. Cure spells are NOT ok, Transfering wounds from someone onto the cleric is. This class should have really nice abilities. LOts of permanent spell like abilities. I am not sure how exactly to do that. I know that with a few months of play testing I can balance this class, but I have always been extremly happy with the replies I have seen here. I know that many of you have a very good understanding of the mechanics that create play balance. It should Look broken, but it will not be because it will not have the BA, or hit points of a fighter. It will not have the spell selection of the cleric. In short PLEASE, give suggestions on how to make this work, and if there is anyone more interested I will gladly discusse the specifics of the class
SmiloDan 10-06-04, 06:37 PM	It sounds like they are going to be self-buffers, for the most part. Maybe they get one 0 level ability at 1st level, and another one every even level, which cannot exceed half their class level. Caster level would be equal to class level. Level Ability 1. 0 level spell 2. 1st level spell 3. 4. 2nd level spell 5. 6. 3rd level spell 7. 8. 4th level spell 9. 10. 5th level spell 11. 12. 6th level spell 13. 14. 7th level spell 15. 16. 8th level spell 17. 18. 9th level spell 19. 20. 9th level spell Of course, you can always choose a spell level lower than the one indicated by the level. Coming up with a balanced spell list is up to you! What are the class skills going to be? I can see Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Knowledge (all), Listen, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival as being good fits. It's a neat concept. If that seems too powerful, maybe: Level Ability 1. 0 level spell 2. 1st level spell 3. 4. 5. 2nd level spell 6. 7. 8. 3rd level spell 9. 10. 11. 4th level spell 12. 13. 14. 5th level spell 15. 16. 17. 6th level spell 18. 19. 20. 7th level spell
shift244 10-06-04, 07:50 PM	do you play 3.5? do you happen to own Unearthed Arcana? from what i read, it seems pretty close to the non-casting variant of the Paladin (which i think is in UA), albeit the no heavy armor and some other changes, like BAB, which i think if the class gains good fort and will saves, can sacrifice well enough the good BAB progression. and the slight drop of a HD should not mater too greatly (you'd lose about 1 HP per level) unless you plan to take the characters past the teen levels.
Chuza 10-06-04, 10:45 PM	One could look at the Annointed Knight in Exalted Deeds and perhaps move it out to a 20 level class and expand the ointments. :angel: Seems the easiest way and most of it is mapped out. Admittedly the BAB is 1 per level with Druid/Cleric saves. That is easy enough to change to the 3/4 progression though.
darczero 10-06-04, 11:32 PM	Interesting question... Smilodan had a great idea with the whole spellgranty thingy... Since you said they like to fight, Here's a few suggestions for some spells: 0 level: There really aren't many decent 0 level spells. Especially not to have permanently active. But if one of them "worships" a God of Magic, or would have been the type to take the Magic or Knowledge domain, maybe Read Magic 1/Day? 1st level: I can think of dozens of Wizard spells that are 1st level, but not many on the Divine side... Maybe Protection from (opposed alignment)? Or this could be where you place their Heal Others By Damaging Yourself power... Kinda like a modified Lay on Hands. 2nd Level: Shield of Faith. Grants Deflection bonus to AC based on caster level. Or any of the Stat buffing spells (Str, Dex, Con, or Wis; improve damage, HP, AC, or Saves). 3rd Level: As far as I remember, this is where Circles of Protection appear. 4th level: In 3.0, Greater Magic Weapon was the ultimate combat buffing spell for Clerics who fought a lot of creatures with DR. Of course, in 3.5, they've reworked the entire DR system; maybe something like the Monk's Unarmed Strike modifiers (magic, aligned, special materials at higher levels). Stoneskin (duration equal to rounds based on class level per day or something like that) might also work. 5th level: Most of the decent 5th level spells were either area based or combat type; the notable exception was Raise Dead. I have no idea. A power of similar level would be something like a movement ability (Dimension Door, etc.), a better Defensive ability (Displacement for a certain number of rounds or minutes per day), or another combat buff (add Wis bonus to attack or damage, maybe both?). There's lots of decent 4th and 5th level Wizard spells you may want to look at too (Dismissal could become Dismissing Strike, for example). 6th level: Again, there's more Wizard/Sorcerer spells that aid in combat at this level. By the time a normal Cleric could cast 6th level spells, they are 11th level; that's right around the time many players start taking PrC levels (if they haven't already). A Bonus Feat from the Fighter list could also work (such as giving them a one-time Weapon Specialization feat). 7th level: Running out of ideas... The Timeless Body ability comes to mind, but that doesn't really fit the concept; maybe turning Ability Drain into Ability Damage, or save bonus against level drains (I'm looking at Greater Restoration right now). 8th level: The Alignment-based Auras (Unholy Aura, Holy Aura, Shield of Law, Cloak of Chaos) are jumping out of the page at me. 9th level: I'm only seeing Foresight (which grants Insight bonus to several things) on the spell lists. Monks get their outsider transformation at 20th level; maybe give these "clerics" DR of 20/+1 (or 10/Magic) at this level. There's lots you could do with this idea. I've decided to actually work out this class progression (it's a wonderful idea); I'll post it when I get done.
Darson 10-08-04, 08:59 PM	The idea I had was to create domain "like" groupings of powers. The class would get 2-4 of these, speced out at variouse levels, but that is really just story flovor. The real question is what and how many permant spell like abilities the class would be able to maintain on themselves without being broken. Truthfully I am pretty sure that they could maintain quite a few. EDIT The build I worked up did not get all the abilities automatically. They were gained over the course of the characters career. 2 at level one and 1 additional every few levels (5 levels I think) after that. kinda like the old Ranger. If this makes no sence say so. I will explain, but the boss just told me to go home for the day and I am out of here. End Edit I only went through the PHB, but in doing so I managed to creat what looked like a balanced class that maintained 6 perment spell like abilities active per spell level all the way thru 7th level spells. This was allowing spells at the same rate as sorcerers. A LOT of these are VERY week spells. the point in several WAS flavor. I want to see your level build when you finish it...please.