Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RadicalTaoist 03-01-05, 11:28 PM	You know what irritates me most about the cleric? And has nothing to do with its mechanical balance or imbalance? It's the fact that every time someone says 'Cleric' the first gut reaction is 'walking band-aid'. Why? Because that's the image of the cleric always put forward. He's described in the PHB as the party support role character. The 'example cleric' always put forward as a PC is Jozan ™, the Sun and Healing domain guy. The guy who heals in combat. The guy who appears to do no offense besides slaying undead and playing second fiddle in melee to the fighter, despite the potent offensive capabilities of the cleric class. No, the cleric's class abilities only appear in the hands of The Evil Cleric ™, who is portrayed always as an NPC (outside of the Book of Vile Darkness, anyways). C'mon! Flavor portrayal is an important part of class design (btw Wizards, putting the Radiant Servant of Pelor on the front of Complete Divine didn't help). Clerics, and for that matter all goody-goody PCs, should look more badass. I'd rather see the portrayal of clerics as something similar to the cleric of Dol Arrah showed off in the Classes section of the Eberron Campaign setting. You know, less "May your wounds be healed, my son" and more "I kick ass for the Lord!". So I'm making this thread to list suggestions to spruce up the image of the cleric, from less of the party's first aid kit and more of a "My god tells me to smite the vile and the ugly. You're getting smited twice." character who's fun to play. Right now I'm looking for images of characters that could be totally bad mofo clerics, and I'll post them here. Clerics have a poor and inaccurate connotation attached to them. Let's fix that. :cool:
okpokalypse 03-02-05, 12:02 AM	I wrote something on this a while back... Essentially, I just think the basse Cleric should be broken down into two distinct base-classes... The Priest - 1/2 BAB - d6 HD - Good Will Saves - Full Divine Progression w/ Memorization & Spontaneous Healing - Access to Light Armors - Turn Undead - 2 Domains - 4 Skill Pts / Level + Int bonus - Scribe [Divine] Scroll @ 1st Level - Bonus [Divine/MetaMagic] Feats at 5th, 10th, 15th, 20th. - A Revised Spell List* * At a quick Glance, I'd take away such spells as the Spiritual Weapon, Divine Power, Righteous Might and Blade Barrier - just to name a few. They'd still be able to cast Healing spells spontaneously, but would find their offensive spells and self-powerups limited. The Templar - 3/4 BAB - d8 HD - Good Will & Fort Saves - Reduced Divine Progression w/o Memorization** - Access to all Armors & most Shields (no Tower Shield) - WP Focus w/ Deity's Favored Weapon (War Domain Substitute) - 2 Skill Pts / Level + Int bonus - A Revised Spell List*** ** The Templar's Divine Progression would be the same as a Bard's with access to all Templar Spells. They do not memorize their spells (as with a WarMage), and they never progress higher than being able to cast 6th level Spells (As with Bards / Psychic Warriors). *** The list of Templar Spells would be: 1st: Bane, Bless, Cause Fear, Cure Light Wounds, Detect [X], Divine Favor, Divine Sacrifice, Inflict Light Wounds, Magic Weapon, Remove Fear, Protection from [X], Shield of Faith. 2nd: Align Weapon, Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Cure Moderate Wounds, Deific Vengence, Delay Poison, Inflict Moderate Wounds, Remove Paralysis, Shatter, Shield Other, Sound Burst, Spiritual Weapon 3rd: Blindness/Deafness, Create Food & Water, Cure Serious Wounds, Flame of Faith, Inflict Serious Wounds, Invisibility Purge, Magic Vestment, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Searing Light, Weapon of the Deity, Wind Wall 4th: Cure Critical Wounds, Death Ward, Divine Power, Energy Vortex, Freedom of Movement, Inflict Cirtical Wounds, Magic Weapon, Greater, Neutralize Poison, Visage of the Deity, Lesser 5th: Dispel [X], Disrupting Weapon, Flame Strike, Recitation, Righteous Might 6th: Bear's Enduance Mass, Blade Barrier, Bull's Strength Mass, Cat's Grace Mass, Harm, Heal, Heroes Feast, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Visage of the Deity Of course, this could change - but I think this is a start for a better balance of Combat-Cleric type spells that fits the mold of a Templar.
RadicalTaoist 03-02-05, 12:16 AM	Which is all well and good...but that's changing rules, not appearance - strictly mechanical. I'm trying to focus on how to portray the cleric flavor-wise. Entirely different endeavor.
okpokalypse 03-02-05, 12:40 AM	Which is all well and good...but that's changing rules, not appearance - strictly mechanical. I'm trying to focus on how to portray the cleric flavor-wise. Entirely different endeavor. Flavor wise, there's a lot you can do to protray different clerics, and I feel it should entirely revolve around a Deity's Dogma and those Domains a Cleric Chooses. In one Campaign I'm in I play a Cleric following a Deity of Inevitabilites (Custom Deity). One of my restrictions is that I can never raise the dead. Almost defeats half the base concept of the higher-level cleric, huh? The Dogma for me is that life is meant to be lived and celebrated, and when it's over, it's over. Because the belief that life terminates as an inevitable, my character feels that the only way to truly make one's life worthwhile is through positive action (abhoring inaction) - even if those positive actions eventually lead to the inevitable conclusion of death. In the meanwhile, he lives life to the fullest. He drinks, he sings, he plays rough and he's very outspoken - sometimes to a detriment. But that's him. In terms of his Deity's code: Undeath is a mockery of life, an evasion of the inevitable, and must be destroyed as well as those that deal in undeath. The Deity's portfolio is that of War against Undeath - especially in battle knowledge and tactics against the undead. Thus, my character's whole purpose is to make sure that life is lived and that the dead stay dead. He's got the War and Sun domains, and is a warrior against undeath as well as a tenderer to those who are in need of healing or protection - to ensure their lives endure and have a chance to make a positive impact upon the world. When adventuring, he's often involved directly in melee, albeit not performing nearly as well as the warriors, yet is especially viral when it comes to combating the undead. He mostly lends his buffs to those who can use them the best, and then goes toe-to-toe with whatever he can. He occasionally takes the role of a tactician when it comes to melee, barking out who should be where to make sure he can reach anyone in a round and perform healing, as well as maximize the groups offense by allowing everyone to get in combat and allow for fallback positions to request healing. So there ya go...
The Wasp 03-02-05, 12:49 AM	I think the key here is to emphasize differences in the priesthoods of various churches. If I have a cleric of Pelor, he is going to act out the Jozan model. A cleric of St. Cuthbert, on the other hand, is going to be far more Inquisitorial - smiting crooks and taking numbers. He should probably focus on smiting type spells, zone of truth, and abjurations. A cleric of Boccob would focus on studying magic, and would probably be as insular as a wizard. A large part of the problem is mechanical. Clerics get spontaneous casting of healing spells, and so are pressured into using those spells. If you have a good aligned cleric, healing is going ot be his main schtick. In my own campaign, I solved this by replacing spontaneous casting of healing spells with spontaneous casting of domain spells. The cleric's new schtick becomes whatever his domains are. If he wants to be a healer, he should take the healing domain. I also grant clerics proficiency with their gods favored weapon, but they lose hvy armor proficiency. (war domain grants hvy armor proficiency). Finally, they get an extra class skill according to their church. All these help give the cleric a little bit of flavor. I think the most important thing, however, is for the PC and DM to decide what the cleric's religion is like. What are the duties and roles of the god's clergy? Is evangelism important? What's the church's opinion on surrendered enemies? Does your god promote a certain type of lifestyle or profession? is the church primaril urban, or rural? Does it preach respect for nature? Is helping the poor important? The thing I like about spontaneous domain casting is that it really gives the cleric some signature spells
okpokalypse 03-02-05, 01:15 AM	The thing I like about spontaneous domain casting is that it really gives the cleric some signature spells I agree with almost everything except the above. Clerics are on the upper end of the spectrum as is, and by doing the above (which is a feat btw) you're giving them a lot of extra potential pop. I mean, from a complete power-gamer standpoint, what's to stop me from taking Healing and War and now still having all the Healing spontanaiety as well as being able to spontaneously cast Spiritual Weapons, FlameStrikes, Blade Barriers, and the Power Words... That'd be enough to really piiss off already annoyed Mages who feel they're getting shafted by clerics. Cleric unfortuantely is one of those classes that you have to be very careful with when you modify it. Look at my example above - to fit the role of my deity I had to give away Raise Dead and Resurrection. I got nothing in return other than being able to combo the War & Sun Domains (which I couldn't do based on core rules). Personally, I know I'm on the short end (or rather, my group is - muhahaha), but it's worth it for the role-play aspect and differentiation from other clerics it brings.
BaelinWhale 03-02-05, 02:13 AM	It really just depends on the player, and to a certain extent, how the DM emphasizes certain aspects of the world. In a default D&D adventure, players are always expected to optimize their combat potential. Spot and Listen are always the uber skills and spell selection is always optimized for combat encounters. If the DM encourages role-playing, you'd be surprised by how much farther the cleric can go. After all, the cleric can lay claim to an asset that no one else can: Divine Favor. There's something about being able to exert religion over hapless NPCS. After all, how many people can argue against this phrase: "You dare defy the will of the gods?" :D Sadly, a lot of people tend to regard the cleric as an armor-clad automaton that must respond to voice commands: "Cleric I need healing! Cleric, I need support! Cleric, Turn them!" Because the cleric is busy literally carrying the rest of the party, he doesn't have enough time to grow on his own. In my observations, this usually occurs because the other players don't want the cleric to be anything else. They want to have as much time in the limelight as possible, and the cleric is their safety net. If the cleric is wasting his spell slots on 'role-playing' feats, skills, and spells, then they won't be able to recover as quickly. It's up to the individual cleric to exert himself so other players can respect his right to do bloody well whatever he wants with his character, and also for the DM to make sure that he gets that chance. On a side note, I've found that its a lot more satisfying to play a cleric (or any character for that matter) when you have preset code that defines your actions and motivations. Try it, you'll probably enjoy it. ________________________________________ _________________________ "Enlightenment for a monk is measured by the number of bloody noses left in his wake."
RadicalTaoist 03-02-05, 12:31 PM	Thanks guys! The responses are awesome After all, the cleric can lay claim to an asset that no one else can: Divine Favor. There's something about being able to exert religion over hapless NPCS. After all, how many people can argue against this phrase: "You dare defy the will of the gods?" :D LOL, will make sure to point that out as often as possible with the next cleric I play. Sadly, a lot of people tend to regard the cleric as an armor-clad automaton that must respond to voice commands: "Cleric I need healing! Cleric, I need support! Cleric, Turn them!" Because the cleric is busy literally carrying the rest of the party, he doesn't have enough time to grow on his own. In my observations, this usually occurs because the other players don't want the cleric to be anything else. They want to have as much time in the limelight as possible, and the cleric is their safety net. If the cleric is wasting his spell slots on 'role-playing' feats, skills, and spells, then they won't be able to recover as quickly. It's up to the individual cleric to exert himself so other players can respect his right to do bloody well whatever he wants with his character, and also for the DM to make sure that he gets that chance. Hmm...so it's the fault of the portrayal of the typical party's behavior, you say? Good point.
The Wasp 03-06-05, 05:21 AM	I agree with almost everything except the above. Clerics are on the upper end of the spectrum as is, and by doing the above (which is a feat btw) you're giving them a lot of extra potential pop. I mean, from a complete power-gamer standpoint, what's to stop me from taking Healing and War and now still having all the Healing spontanaiety as well as being able to spontaneously cast Spiritual Weapons, FlameStrikes, Blade Barriers, and the Power Words... That'd be enough to really piiss off already annoyed Mages who feel they're getting shafted by clerics. Cleric unfortuantely is one of those classes that you have to be very careful with when you modify it. Look at my example above - to fit the role of my deity I had to give away Raise Dead and Resurrection. I got nothing in return other than being able to combo the War & Sun Domains (which I couldn't do based on core rules). Personally, I know I'm on the short end (or rather, my group is - muhahaha), but it's worth it for the role-play aspect and differentiation from other clerics it brings. Very true. I must note that in this campaign I have buffed most of the other classes as well. Also, they no longer the one extra spell per day from their domain. The cleric in the campaign, incidentally, has the healing and war domains. Do you think it would be more balanced if they only had one domain? (but maybe had the extra spell?)
angryman 03-06-05, 08:28 AM	I and the group I've played in has played a few clerics over the years. I tend not to be a walking bandaid. -One cleric character was a displaced Baron who was searching for a way to get his land and people back- he was from Ravenloft, but adventured in the prime material (as in normal) plane. He took travel and law domains. He was pretty grim and depressing, and he healed, but he was always wary of notice. -Another was a Dwarven smith who forged weapons against the Dwarf's enemies. He took war and good domains. He was a classic war-cleric. -The third was an effeminate Elf archer cleric who generally nonced around and sang songs about his god. He had elf and magic (?) domains. Anyway, the point is, clerics can be very versatile; the only real connection is that they have to follow a god or an ideal, so it's up to the player to think of an idea, not have it built into the class.
ClementWillowbreaker 03-06-05, 10:14 AM	If you want a change of pace, how about a neutral cleric then? Wee Jas is great for that. When the fighter shouts, "Help me", you can respond with, "I will pray for your soul after death, now help yourself- I'm busy with important matters. ::casts Detect Magic, then starts Dispelling key enemy spells::" Also not being able to spontaneously cast Cure provides a wonderful excuse not to be a EMT.
okpokalypse 03-06-05, 01:39 PM	Very true. I must note that in this campaign I have buffed most of the other classes as well. Also, they no longer the one extra spell per day from their domain. The cleric in the campaign, incidentally, has the healing and war domains. Do you think it would be more balanced if they only had one domain? (but maybe had the extra spell?) It's a tough call. Honestly, if I had to chance one thing about the Cleric, I'd probably take away Turn Undead as a given ability, and make it domain based. Like having a handful of domains allow Turning ability, and another handful allowing Rebuking ability. This would do a lot to keep "Magic & War" Domain Clerics from taking Divine MataMagic to get really rediculous. As for the extra spell, I've never thought it was a problem as Specialist Wizards get it too - and really, that's what a Cleric is. They're all specialists using their Domain. And now that the Elven Generalist Wizard has been introduced in RotW - well, I don't think the arguments of Clerics being so overpowered are going to last much longer. Imagine what you can do with 20 extra spell slots over the course of a wizard's development? In the end, you talking about having at least 6 spells per level at the end game, and no requirements that certain spells be from certain Schools/Domains, etc...
Solidcobra 03-06-05, 02:21 PM	It's all about asking your DM if you can do things different, IMO. Instead of muttering prayers to gods/general prayers, how about doing something else? Let's say i want a Naruto-style cleric... His scrolls, makimonos that he uses in flowing, dance-like patterns while casting. His components, doing hand signs and muttering specific words, much like a wizard, only in a cool way. (:D) His armor would likely not be heavy, medium at most, he'd suffer slight MAD from needing a nice dex too, but hey, what don't we do for flavor? He'd otherwise be roleplayed as a ninja-like character, likely not following a deity, but rather, some....concept. <.< ninja-stuffety. Taking domains of magic and travel. (>_> Cause ninjas are magic and fast and...blast it, he has less armor, he needs the gewd domains to survive) Tadah. flavah.
RogerWilco 03-06-05, 03:38 PM	I think the problem as you percieve it is that there are essentailly two clerics in the D&D system, the Cleric and the Paladin. To give the Paladin some reason of existing he is portrayed as the kick-ass mo-fo, leaving the Cleric as the band-aid, without giving the Cleric class real "baid-aid" background and fluff. I think the current paladin/cleric should be reshuffled into the priest/templar system okpokalypse proposed. Essentially I think there should be a Battlecleric/paladin with full BAB, smite, armor and weapon proficiencies, d10, and somewhat reduced casting. And a healer/priest with 1/2 BAB, turn undead, virually no armor and weapon proficiencies, and spellfailure in armor, d6 and lot's of spells. Multiclassing these two should be easy, spell levels should stack, but the spellfailure in armor should stay. I think bard/sorcerer should stack too, and rogues should have some limited spellcasting that would stack with wizard. finally have ranger/druid become spontanious divine spellcasters, and have those two stack too.