Cleric God Change [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cleric God Change [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Feather
02-20-05, 03:09 AM Say we have a cleric with light and healing domains. He advances in level, and then switches to another god after a new demigod arises with the light domain (the new god does not have the healing domain)

Problem is, a cleric only rises in power through the rewards from his god. He may advance in combat skills slightly, but seeing as his spells are granted by the god, what happens when a level 15 cleric of Pelor changes to a level 15 cleric of Praenturi, a new god of light that Pelor disapproves of? Do they keep their spell slots, what happens? Seeign as so much of a clerics' power is granted by their deity, what happens when the priest repents to a different faith?
Need_A_Life
02-20-05, 06:51 AM I've been wondering about that for a while.... that evil cleric who gets redeemed. A CG Cleric who wields negative energy (because that's what he is 'proficient with').

I'd say it was a judgement call, ask your DM.
Feather
02-20-05, 07:48 AM I AM the DM... And I'm stuck. It's not like adventuring has risen that particular individuals 'storage space' for divine energies inside his/her brain, it's really just the god recognising the clerics' service in their name and rewarding them to continue their service. It makes the Cleric quite inflexible to change alignments and positions in life in comparison to the other classes...

Anyone else got any house rules they'd like to share?
Mark_Aurel
02-20-05, 08:19 AM When he repents to a new faith, he gains spells from the new god, of course -- at the exact same level as he did before. That would include new domains and a new choice of positive/negative energy.

Unlike paladins, there are no rules for fallen clerics, or ex-clerics, so I'd mostly leave it at that. I think imposing an XP penalty for a level would be a good idea, though -- so as to prevent a player from taking the 'god of the day.' Make it a penalty similar to the multiclassing one -- to represent his need for adaption to the new faith, learning the new rites, etc. Make it last through the current level and the next, so it'll sting a bit.
Nephlite
02-20-05, 09:47 AM When he repents to a new faith, he gains spells from the new god, of course -- at the exact same level as he did before. That would include new domains and a new choice of positive/negative energy.

Unlike paladins, there are no rules for fallen clerics, or ex-clerics, so I'd mostly leave it at that. I think imposing an XP penalty for a level would be a good idea, though -- so as to prevent a player from taking the 'god of the day.' Make it a penalty similar to the multiclassing one -- to represent his need for adaption to the new faith, learning the new rites, etc. Make it last through the current level and the next, so it'll sting a bit.

I think he shoud be on a trial basis for a month or a few weeks. No domain powers/spells till the god can trust him to hold the god to high esteem and act responsibly.
The gods will allow you to be powered enough to cast non-domain spells. So you won't lose anything but the domains until you proven yourself and are rewarded with them.
steenan
02-20-05, 07:55 PM IMO, if the cleric himself decided to change faith, he should start with only first-level spellcasting. I know, that it makes him very weak - but there is absolutely no reason why he would be given any more power than anyone else who's just becoming the cleric. His previous experience has nothing to do with it, because clerical spellcasting is a matter of divine gift, not someone's own skill and practise.

It can be different, if it wasn't the cleric's choise, but god's (you know, some kind of divine minion sent by the new deity, asking the cleric "Would you like to change your faith and worship Praenturi from now, instead of Pelor?" - it's quite possible on high enough level) - then, the deity would give him much power from the beginning, wanting to lure him. That is the only way that the cleric may be given full spelcasting after converting.
saankiip
02-20-05, 08:02 PM This isn't a house rule, but I seem to remember that back in AD&D 2nd edition, if a Cleric changed Dieties, he had to half his level!!

This seems a tad harsh to me, but you could do a trust scheme. Maybe the new Diety only give the Cleric access to spells up to 3rd level until the Cleric proves himself worthy.

SaanKiip
The Wasp
02-21-05, 01:30 AM The rules don't suggest this directly, but I think the Atonement Spell would be appropriate here.

Atonement already lets you change your alignment and restores clerical powers. I don't see why it can't be used to let a cleric adopt the powers of his new god.

So, if a cleric changes gods, make him find a cleric of his new god to cast atonement. (Kind of like a letter of recommendation to the god)

If the god is actively pursuing that new cleric, he would probably wave the XP cost. Otherwise, it requires a 500 XP cost, as normal.
Gunrock
02-21-05, 01:55 AM Actually, the FRCS discusses this in some depth (in the begining about classes). Basically, you go on some kind of probation and when you prove your devotion to the diety's satisfaction you get all your spells and your turning / rebuking.
DM can rule the conversion event as enough (if it is) but an Atonement spell (and suitable quest) is highly recommended.
Gingerbread Guy
02-21-05, 02:02 AM IMHO, "Cleric of Pelor" is a class all on it's own. You can't just toss your Deity away for a shiny new one.

If the situation come up in one of my games, this is how I'd deal with it: If the change came about through roleplaying and involved a damn good reason why the Cleric was swapping faiths, then I'd probably turn the whole thing into a small storyline. I'd probably lower his Cleric class features level by level until he had nothing, then rebuild them bit by bit over the course of an adventure. This is as much for game balance as it is a reward for good roleplaying.

If the Cleric just up and decided one day that he didn't like his Healing domain anymore, I'd make him multiclass. After kicking him in the junk for being a tool. Congratulations - he's a 15th level cleric with no class features!

I have to suggest you NOT use Atonement as a solution. Atonement is for restoring class features of characters who've made a mistake or been forced to make a mistake - not for people who shed deities like last year's wardrobe. If he has a legitimate reason for swapping faiths, then fine, Atonement might be a reasonable part of the process. But don't be easy on him.

~Ginger
Gunrock
02-21-05, 02:11 AM One Problem Ginger, you can't multi-class into the same class.

Other than that, I totally agree. The RP reasons have to be very good. If the PC just didn't like his domain, well, tough nuts. Now you don't have it because you annoyed your diety and you get nothing to replace it.
If the RP reasons are good, then a suitable quest should be enough to do a straight port without loss of any power for his awesome experience.
Just remember, hit dice, BAB and Base Saves are not to be removed without serious thought (or a lot of undead ;) ).
Feather
02-21-05, 07:01 AM I'm liking the atonement idea, I might make it a slightly more difficult atonement xp penalty, however. Thanks all!
esm3x
02-21-05, 02:20 PM Can we look at this from the divine's point of view? This is a C15 character! Wouldn't Pelor would be displeased with this, regardless of whether it was forced or freely decided? I think that Pelor might place a Geas upon the cleric, to test his resolve to leave, with the reward being his choice to stay with his Pelor or change his faith.

In the same vein if the change was not forced on the player, then until the Geas is completed his clerical abilities are half what they normally are (Not C7 but instead of 6
5, 5, 5, 4, 4, 3, 2, 1, he's a 3, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 1, 1, 0 and turn 1+CHA per day instead of 3+CHA, etc.).

I'd role-play the interaction between the PC and Pelor out as a dream or a mental struggle during the cleric's next 'pray for spells' period. Have the PC defend his choice.

As a DM I'd play the divine as displeased, after all Pelor has nutured and supported the PC through 15 levels, 15, and now he's turning his back on Pelor! Good thing Pelor is a good divine being, if the divine was Hextor (evil laugh)... :schemes:

My $.02,

Check Six,
Shakespeare

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Feather 02-20-05, 03:09 AM	Say we have a cleric with light and healing domains. He advances in level, and then switches to another god after a new demigod arises with the light domain (the new god does not have the healing domain) Problem is, a cleric only rises in power through the rewards from his god. He may advance in combat skills slightly, but seeing as his spells are granted by the god, what happens when a level 15 cleric of Pelor changes to a level 15 cleric of Praenturi, a new god of light that Pelor disapproves of? Do they keep their spell slots, what happens? Seeign as so much of a clerics' power is granted by their deity, what happens when the priest repents to a different faith?
Need_A_Life 02-20-05, 06:51 AM	I've been wondering about that for a while.... that evil cleric who gets redeemed. A CG Cleric who wields negative energy (because that's what he is 'proficient with'). I'd say it was a judgement call, ask your DM.
Feather 02-20-05, 07:48 AM	I AM the DM... And I'm stuck. It's not like adventuring has risen that particular individuals 'storage space' for divine energies inside his/her brain, it's really just the god recognising the clerics' service in their name and rewarding them to continue their service. It makes the Cleric quite inflexible to change alignments and positions in life in comparison to the other classes... Anyone else got any house rules they'd like to share?
Mark_Aurel 02-20-05, 08:19 AM	When he repents to a new faith, he gains spells from the new god, of course -- at the exact same level as he did before. That would include new domains and a new choice of positive/negative energy. Unlike paladins, there are no rules for fallen clerics, or ex-clerics, so I'd mostly leave it at that. I think imposing an XP penalty for a level would be a good idea, though -- so as to prevent a player from taking the 'god of the day.' Make it a penalty similar to the multiclassing one -- to represent his need for adaption to the new faith, learning the new rites, etc. Make it last through the current level and the next, so it'll sting a bit.
Nephlite 02-20-05, 09:47 AM	When he repents to a new faith, he gains spells from the new god, of course -- at the exact same level as he did before. That would include new domains and a new choice of positive/negative energy. Unlike paladins, there are no rules for fallen clerics, or ex-clerics, so I'd mostly leave it at that. I think imposing an XP penalty for a level would be a good idea, though -- so as to prevent a player from taking the 'god of the day.' Make it a penalty similar to the multiclassing one -- to represent his need for adaption to the new faith, learning the new rites, etc. Make it last through the current level and the next, so it'll sting a bit. I think he shoud be on a trial basis for a month or a few weeks. No domain powers/spells till the god can trust him to hold the god to high esteem and act responsibly. The gods will allow you to be powered enough to cast non-domain spells. So you won't lose anything but the domains until you proven yourself and are rewarded with them.
steenan 02-20-05, 07:55 PM	IMO, if the cleric himself decided to change faith, he should start with only first-level spellcasting. I know, that it makes him very weak - but there is absolutely no reason why he would be given any more power than anyone else who's just becoming the cleric. His previous experience has nothing to do with it, because clerical spellcasting is a matter of divine gift, not someone's own skill and practise. It can be different, if it wasn't the cleric's choise, but god's (you know, some kind of divine minion sent by the new deity, asking the cleric "Would you like to change your faith and worship Praenturi from now, instead of Pelor?" - it's quite possible on high enough level) - then, the deity would give him much power from the beginning, wanting to lure him. That is the only way that the cleric may be given full spelcasting after converting.
saankiip 02-20-05, 08:02 PM	This isn't a house rule, but I seem to remember that back in AD&D 2nd edition, if a Cleric changed Dieties, he had to half his level!! This seems a tad harsh to me, but you could do a trust scheme. Maybe the new Diety only give the Cleric access to spells up to 3rd level until the Cleric proves himself worthy. SaanKiip
The Wasp 02-21-05, 01:30 AM	The rules don't suggest this directly, but I think the Atonement Spell would be appropriate here. Atonement already lets you change your alignment and restores clerical powers. I don't see why it can't be used to let a cleric adopt the powers of his new god. So, if a cleric changes gods, make him find a cleric of his new god to cast atonement. (Kind of like a letter of recommendation to the god) If the god is actively pursuing that new cleric, he would probably wave the XP cost. Otherwise, it requires a 500 XP cost, as normal.
Gunrock 02-21-05, 01:55 AM	Actually, the FRCS discusses this in some depth (in the begining about classes). Basically, you go on some kind of probation and when you prove your devotion to the diety's satisfaction you get all your spells and your turning / rebuking. DM can rule the conversion event as enough (if it is) but an Atonement spell (and suitable quest) is highly recommended.
Gingerbread Guy 02-21-05, 02:02 AM	IMHO, "Cleric of Pelor" is a class all on it's own. You can't just toss your Deity away for a shiny new one. If the situation come up in one of my games, this is how I'd deal with it: If the change came about through roleplaying and involved a damn good reason why the Cleric was swapping faiths, then I'd probably turn the whole thing into a small storyline. I'd probably lower his Cleric class features level by level until he had nothing, then rebuild them bit by bit over the course of an adventure. This is as much for game balance as it is a reward for good roleplaying. If the Cleric just up and decided one day that he didn't like his Healing domain anymore, I'd make him multiclass. After kicking him in the junk for being a tool. Congratulations - he's a 15th level cleric with no class features! I have to suggest you NOT use Atonement as a solution. Atonement is for restoring class features of characters who've made a mistake or been forced to make a mistake - not for people who shed deities like last year's wardrobe. If he has a legitimate reason for swapping faiths, then fine, Atonement might be a reasonable part of the process. But don't be easy on him. ~Ginger
Gunrock 02-21-05, 02:11 AM	One Problem Ginger, you can't multi-class into the same class. Other than that, I totally agree. The RP reasons have to be very good. If the PC just didn't like his domain, well, tough nuts. Now you don't have it because you annoyed your diety and you get nothing to replace it. If the RP reasons are good, then a suitable quest should be enough to do a straight port without loss of any power for his awesome experience. Just remember, hit dice, BAB and Base Saves are not to be removed without serious thought (or a lot of undead ;) ).
Feather 02-21-05, 07:01 AM	I'm liking the atonement idea, I might make it a slightly more difficult atonement xp penalty, however. Thanks all!
esm3x 02-21-05, 02:20 PM	Can we look at this from the divine's point of view? This is a C15 character! Wouldn't Pelor would be displeased with this, regardless of whether it was forced or freely decided? I think that Pelor might place a Geas upon the cleric, to test his resolve to leave, with the reward being his choice to stay with his Pelor or change his faith. In the same vein if the change was not forced on the player, then until the Geas is completed his clerical abilities are half what they normally are (Not C7 but instead of 6 5, 5, 5, 4, 4, 3, 2, 1, he's a 3, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 1, 1, 0 and turn 1+CHA per day instead of 3+CHA, etc.). I'd role-play the interaction between the PC and Pelor out as a dream or a mental struggle during the cleric's next 'pray for spells' period. Have the PC defend his choice. As a DM I'd play the divine as displeased, after all Pelor has nutured and supported the PC through 15 levels, 15, and now he's turning his back on Pelor! Good thing Pelor is a good divine being, if the divine was Hextor (evil laugh)... :schemes: My $.02, Check Six, Shakespeare