Cleric Multiclassing [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cleric Multiclassing [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sadruddin
12-30-05, 11:57 AM As a dwarven cleric of Moradin, what would be the best choice for multiclassing? My friends say that this friend of mine in our game should multi as a fighter, but I think he should stay as a full cleric.Multi-ing as a fighter doesn't make any sense. I think it contradicts cleric. Opinions?
Shaggy_Shaggs
12-30-05, 12:03 PM I don't think multiclassing contradicts being a cleric, so long as the cleric continues to do his work as a servant of whatever agent or philosophy he's a cleric of. If multiclassing helps you carry out the will of your god better than staying a pure cleric would, by some interpretations it might be your duty to do so.

Do you happen to know what this cleric's ability scores and domain selection are?
Sadruddin
12-30-05, 12:18 PM No, but when the DM comes back I can check with him.
What I meant about contradictory wasn't that multi-classing was contradictory to a cleric, but that multi-classing as a cleric/fighter was not the best idea, even if only at this stage in the game. We are only 3rd levels. What I guess I really meant was not contradictory but counter-productive. Apologies for using the wrong word and not giving enough information.
Puca
12-30-05, 12:26 PM Whether it is counter productive or not is going to largly depend on his role within the party. Ive seen many situations where, through lack of a fighter, the cleric becomes the party tank, on the front lines in heavy armor calling down the wrath of god with a mace. (With some of his spells, he can be very, very good in this role.) If your cleric is doing this, then hell yeah take a level of fighter. Take two. BAB, two feats, your only real downside is reflex saves and caster levels, both of which can be solved.

On the other hand, if he stays in the back, buffing and band-aiding, the motivation to take those levels is not really there.
Tempest Stormwind
12-30-05, 12:32 PM Trust me. Stick to cleric.

You will remain useful throughout your entire adventuring career, and it will increase exponentially as you gain levels.

Level 9, for instance, grants you access to Divine Power, and that single spell all but makes Fighters useless at that point in the game.

It's also possible to have picked up Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) by that point if you have access to the Complete books (Divine and Arcane, respectively), which lets you burn your turn undead attempts to make your spells -- including divine power -- last all day.

Now, all of a sudden, you're a better fighter than the fighter, and you still have most of your cleric spells to heal and protect with.
Shaggy_Shaggs
12-30-05, 12:37 PM Well, multiclassing almost any full spellcaster (such as a cleric) can be counterproductive. It really depends on what your cleric has to work with and what he wants his character to be capable of, though. If he's got good physical scores and is already basically acting as a frontline unit with healing capability, going fighter for a couple extra feats may be useful. If he's got more talent for spells, becoming a fighter won't change it all that much, it'll just hurt his spellcasting progression.

A player also needs to keep in mind what level the game is likely to finish at, when he considers multiclassing. Assuming you can fake being a fighter with a high-level spell is a mistake if you're never going to reach access to that spell even as a pure cleric. If you have a pretty good chance of getting huge as long as you survive, though, staying single class should pay off in the long run.
Sadruddin
12-30-05, 01:01 PM Our group is all unexperienced players (except the DM, who has been playing since the early days.), so I'm trying to work out a solution with elements of all your ideas to present to the group, then leave it to the player in question to choose. Thanks for all your help. Looking forward to more thoughts.
Joe Outside
12-30-05, 01:34 PM Keep in mind that as a 3rd level dwarf, if he does choose to multiclass the safest non-prestige class for him to multiclass into is fighter, as that is the dwarves' favored class and multiclassing into anything else will hit him with an XP penalty, slowing his progression.
Tempest Stormwind
12-30-05, 01:42 PM Keep in mind that as a 3rd level dwarf, if he does choose to multiclass the safest non-prestige class for him to multiclass into is fighter, as that is the dwarves' favored class and multiclassing into anything else will hit him with an XP penalty, slowing his progression.
All the more reason for him to stay pure Cleric, then.

Plus, I'm not joking when I say the First AND Fifth Commandments of Optimization read "Thou shalt not give up caster levels."

Even if you're inexperienced, there's no better time to learn than the present.
Sadruddin
12-30-05, 01:47 PM Cool then. That is what I'll reccomend him to do. Thanks, everybody.
Ruhl-Than Sage
12-30-05, 02:54 PM You seem to have already made you descision, but I'd like to comment anyway.

The composition of you party should figure into this too. If you have a another character in your party who is a cleric, bard, or druid than the lose of healing spells and buffs won't be a big deal as the other character can compensate. If however, that character is the only one in the party who is capable of casting curative magic and similar things such as remove paralysis and neutralize poison than it could hurt the party pretty badly if he multiclasses.

All other things aside if you are going to multiclass from cleric into fighter its usually better to wait until you've got 4th level spells. There are a lot of really useful spells that become available at 4th level including Divince Power will help tremendously in being an effective fighter.
Dwalon
12-31-05, 09:44 AM All other things aside if you are going to multiclass from cleric into fighter its usually better to wait until you've got 4th level spells. There are a lot of really useful spells that become available at 4th level including Divince Power will help tremendously in being an effective fighter.

I respect your opinion, but I disagree. If one chooses to wait until 8th level to multiclass into a fighter then you lose all the opportunities that you'd encounter prior to that in which the additional powers/skills/abilities will not come into being. In other words, since we are talking about being a fighter, if the cleric wants to multiclass in order to gain a particular extra combat feat, waiting until 8th will not allow that feat to come into play for a long time. In many parties, a 7th level cleric is likely not to be as combat intensive as he was at lower levels, and so picking up that desired feat can become moot.

Having said all this, I recommend being a cleric for the first three levels. Pick up a single level of fighter (to gain that feat or that "flavor" you desire) once training for 4th, and then return to being a cleric. The cleric's second level cure moderate will be essential to last your party through the next three levels until you reach 6th level and gain that third level spell capability.
deafbymetal
12-31-05, 10:05 AM My two coppers. I think it a lot of it boils down to a couple of things- what does the party already have, what role does the player wish to fill with his character, and what character concept he is shooting for? His domain choices are a good indication of where he wants to go. If he took healing, shoot for pure cleric. If one domain is war (for the free weapon focus feat), take some levels of fighter.
I have a character I've played off and on since second edition. I converted him from a "Dwarven Champion" from the 2e book "Complete Book of Dwarves". It made him a type of paladin for dwarves, when dwarves were not allowed in that class. When I converted him I took 6 levels of fighter, the rest cleric, and later added Runecaster (Forgotten Realms) levels, as that was what I saw him as being. I chose not to take levels of paladin because that is not how I saw him being. And while not "optimized", he is extremely fun to play, and had a pretty good range of roles in the party.
Another thing to keep in mind is PrC's. Most of them have to be planned for early. If the player wants a particular one, he has to start asap to get the skills, feats, etc. to do it, which may influence what route he goes.
The main thing to remember is- have fun! Glad your trying D&D out, and hope it gives you years of enjoyment, as it has for many of us here on these boards.
Sir Knight
12-31-05, 10:09 AM There isn't a reason to multi-class unless you WANT to for character development or to qualify for a Prestige Class.

I had a Dwarven Cleric 9 duel my friend's Half-Orc Barbarian 6/Frenzied Berserker 3 and stomped him. BELIEVE me, his character is out of control and butch (something like 30 STR when fully Raged and Frenzied) but with Divine Power and a few other clerical "buff" spells cast on myself, I was a Large-sized Dwarf with 120 HP, 10' reach, and 28 STR.

Stick with straight Cleric... trust me. :)
Father Dale
12-31-05, 09:16 PM I've played a couple Dwarven clerics of Moradin over the years. In fact, my name is the name of my first Dwarven Cleric of Moradin :) Always fun to play.

There are a couple prestige classes that fit right in, although in most cases you are better off just going straight cleric. Heres some decent possiblities:

1. Church Inquisitor (Complete Divine). Full caster progression. Very easy to qualify for, in fact, can be done by lvl 4 so that the PRC can be taken at 5th level. Just need to make sure to spend the skill points (which are typically very few for a dwarven cleric) on the right skills. But shouldn't be a problem. By going CI, you give up increased turning power and the good Fort save. In exchange, you get some nice abilities, including immunity to charms, compulsions, and possession, bonuses against illusions and disguises, and some truth telling abilities. You also get the Inquisition Domain, which has a fantastic domain ability, giving a +4 to dispell checks, and there are very very few ways to increase dispell checks past the dispell magic caster level limits. So, all in all probably an even trade, maybe a bit better for the Dwarf cleric due to his generally high fort save such that the loss of the increased base fort save won't be as bad.

2. Contemplative. (Complete Divine). Full caster progression. Also easy to qualify for assuming you meet the RP requirement. You give up increased turn undead, and you get the lower fort save, d6 HD instead of d8, and you get the 1/2 BAB progression. In exchange you get a bonus domain and some nice abilities. For a Dwarven cleric, probably not the best thing to do after 2 levels of Contemplative, which would give the bonus domain, disease immunity, and slippery mind. Dwarven clerics tend to wade into melee, and so the hps and BAB are good to have.

3. Hospitaler (Complete Divine). loses 3 caster levels over 10 levels. This can work well for the dwarven cleric who wants more melee power. Not real easy to qualify for as a cleric, without at least one level of paladin or fighter for the skill requirements, plus the 2 feats aren't usually taken by dwarven clerics, although you would eventually get them back via the Hospitaler's bonus feats. You give up increased turning, a few caster levels, and the good will save for full BAB, lay on hands, a few fighter bonus feats, and remove disease as a spell like ability. I actually played one of these with a dwaven cleric/paladin who had a clestial rhinocerous as his special mount. It was very fun to cast Righteous Might on myself and the rhino!

4. Sacred Exorcist (Complete Divine). Full caster progression. This is a good PRC for any cleric. Easy for clerics to get into, just have to keep dumping the skill points into knowledge (planes). Only thing you lose over straight cleric is the good fort save. You keep the undead turning. In exchange for the fort save you get some very nice abilities, including a constant Consecrate centered on you at 5th level, and holy aura as a spell like ability once a day later on. Plus some benefits versus possessions.

5. Warpriest (Complete Divine). Half caster progression. This works good for the dwarven cleric who wants to do melee, although the loss of full caster progression does hurt. Not hard to get into, you need one feat that isn't a bad idea for dwarven clerics anyways. Have to dump points into a couple class skills though. You trade off the good will save and full caster progression, but get full BAB progression. You keep the undead turning. You get the Glory domain, which is a very very good domain (includes bless weapon and Holy sword as domain spells!). You get some bard-like abilities to help your companions. You get a fear aura. You also get some decent spell like abilities 1/day. The capstone ability allows you to let your companions keep fighting if dropped below 0 hps, although they die if they hit -20. Not bad, but probably not worth the caster level loss unless you have another caster in the party.

6. Thaumaturgist (DMG). Full caster progression. 5 level PRC. You give up the increased undead turning and goof Fort save, you get 1/2 BAB progression and a d4 HD instead of d8. Not hard to get into, requires one feat that isn't a real bad choice if you plan to do some summoning. You get some very nice abilities related to summoning monsters, including free Augmented summoning and all your summoning spells are automatically extended. You also get a Contingent summoning, which can be useful, and you get some benefits related to using the planar ally spell. The capstone ability is a Planar Cohort, which can be extremely nice and can probably make up for the loss of the normal cleric abilities all by itself. I played a dwarven cleric/thaumaturgist and it was fun, but the campaign ended when i was cleric 8/thaum 3. It was nice summoning a bunch of augmented celesital bison though!

7. Fist of Raziel (Exalted Deeds). -1 caster progression. This is a powerful PRC. Straight Cleric can qualify for it by lvl 8. Need two feats, one of which is kinda lame, but power attack is the other and is definitely a good choice for a melee cleric. You give up the undead turning and good will save, and you lose one caster level at 1st lvl. In exchange, you get a d10 HD, full BAB, and some very very nice abilities. You get a constant magic circle vs evil. You also get a smite evil ability every other level, and it gets some real nice abilities associated with that. You get a nifty ability to deal extra damage to evil items and constructs. And at 10th level every weapon you wield is treated as holy! Be mindful of the RP involved though. Raziel isn't a god, so its not like you are giving up Moradin for raziel, and the two are probably very friendly with each other, both being lawful good and residing on the same plane. Raziel is probably a bit more aggressive than Moradin, although Moradin is no slouch when it comes to divine retribution. This class basically turns the cleric into a fighter with cleric spellcasting. Very powerful.

8. Shadowbane Stalker (Complete Adventurer). -2 caster levels over 10 levels. This would require at least one level of rogue to get sneak attack. (That would give trapfinding too, which works real well with stonecunning). Otherwise, just have to dump some skill points, which the rogue level should satisfy. You give up the increased undead turning and the good fort save, but get a good reflex save instead. You get 6 sps a level instead of 2, and have a very nice class skill list. You get increased sneak attack damage every 3 levels, and you get some abilities related to stealth and AC, plus some bonuses to Search and Sense Motive. Not a bad PRC, but doesn't seem to fit the concept of a dwarven cleric too much, although it could definitely work.

Hope that helps!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sadruddin 12-30-05, 11:57 AM	As a dwarven cleric of Moradin, what would be the best choice for multiclassing? My friends say that this friend of mine in our game should multi as a fighter, but I think he should stay as a full cleric.Multi-ing as a fighter doesn't make any sense. I think it contradicts cleric. Opinions?
Shaggy_Shaggs 12-30-05, 12:03 PM	I don't think multiclassing contradicts being a cleric, so long as the cleric continues to do his work as a servant of whatever agent or philosophy he's a cleric of. If multiclassing helps you carry out the will of your god better than staying a pure cleric would, by some interpretations it might be your duty to do so. Do you happen to know what this cleric's ability scores and domain selection are?
Sadruddin 12-30-05, 12:18 PM	No, but when the DM comes back I can check with him. What I meant about contradictory wasn't that multi-classing was contradictory to a cleric, but that multi-classing as a cleric/fighter was not the best idea, even if only at this stage in the game. We are only 3rd levels. What I guess I really meant was not contradictory but counter-productive. Apologies for using the wrong word and not giving enough information.
Puca 12-30-05, 12:26 PM	Whether it is counter productive or not is going to largly depend on his role within the party. Ive seen many situations where, through lack of a fighter, the cleric becomes the party tank, on the front lines in heavy armor calling down the wrath of god with a mace. (With some of his spells, he can be very, very good in this role.) If your cleric is doing this, then hell yeah take a level of fighter. Take two. BAB, two feats, your only real downside is reflex saves and caster levels, both of which can be solved. On the other hand, if he stays in the back, buffing and band-aiding, the motivation to take those levels is not really there.
Tempest Stormwind 12-30-05, 12:32 PM	Trust me. Stick to cleric. You will remain useful throughout your entire adventuring career, and it will increase exponentially as you gain levels. Level 9, for instance, grants you access to Divine Power, and that single spell all but makes Fighters useless at that point in the game. It's also possible to have picked up Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) by that point if you have access to the Complete books (Divine and Arcane, respectively), which lets you burn your turn undead attempts to make your spells -- including divine power -- last all day. Now, all of a sudden, you're a better fighter than the fighter, and you still have most of your cleric spells to heal and protect with.
Shaggy_Shaggs 12-30-05, 12:37 PM	Well, multiclassing almost any full spellcaster (such as a cleric) can be counterproductive. It really depends on what your cleric has to work with and what he wants his character to be capable of, though. If he's got good physical scores and is already basically acting as a frontline unit with healing capability, going fighter for a couple extra feats may be useful. If he's got more talent for spells, becoming a fighter won't change it all that much, it'll just hurt his spellcasting progression. A player also needs to keep in mind what level the game is likely to finish at, when he considers multiclassing. Assuming you can fake being a fighter with a high-level spell is a mistake if you're never going to reach access to that spell even as a pure cleric. If you have a pretty good chance of getting huge as long as you survive, though, staying single class should pay off in the long run.
Sadruddin 12-30-05, 01:01 PM	Our group is all unexperienced players (except the DM, who has been playing since the early days.), so I'm trying to work out a solution with elements of all your ideas to present to the group, then leave it to the player in question to choose. Thanks for all your help. Looking forward to more thoughts.
Joe Outside 12-30-05, 01:34 PM	Keep in mind that as a 3rd level dwarf, if he does choose to multiclass the safest non-prestige class for him to multiclass into is fighter, as that is the dwarves' favored class and multiclassing into anything else will hit him with an XP penalty, slowing his progression.
Tempest Stormwind 12-30-05, 01:42 PM	Keep in mind that as a 3rd level dwarf, if he does choose to multiclass the safest non-prestige class for him to multiclass into is fighter, as that is the dwarves' favored class and multiclassing into anything else will hit him with an XP penalty, slowing his progression. All the more reason for him to stay pure Cleric, then. Plus, I'm not joking when I say the First AND Fifth Commandments of Optimization read "Thou shalt not give up caster levels." Even if you're inexperienced, there's no better time to learn than the present.
Sadruddin 12-30-05, 01:47 PM	Cool then. That is what I'll reccomend him to do. Thanks, everybody.
Ruhl-Than Sage 12-30-05, 02:54 PM	You seem to have already made you descision, but I'd like to comment anyway. The composition of you party should figure into this too. If you have a another character in your party who is a cleric, bard, or druid than the lose of healing spells and buffs won't be a big deal as the other character can compensate. If however, that character is the only one in the party who is capable of casting curative magic and similar things such as remove paralysis and neutralize poison than it could hurt the party pretty badly if he multiclasses. All other things aside if you are going to multiclass from cleric into fighter its usually better to wait until you've got 4th level spells. There are a lot of really useful spells that become available at 4th level including Divince Power will help tremendously in being an effective fighter.
Dwalon 12-31-05, 09:44 AM	All other things aside if you are going to multiclass from cleric into fighter its usually better to wait until you've got 4th level spells. There are a lot of really useful spells that become available at 4th level including Divince Power will help tremendously in being an effective fighter. I respect your opinion, but I disagree. If one chooses to wait until 8th level to multiclass into a fighter then you lose all the opportunities that you'd encounter prior to that in which the additional powers/skills/abilities will not come into being. In other words, since we are talking about being a fighter, if the cleric wants to multiclass in order to gain a particular extra combat feat, waiting until 8th will not allow that feat to come into play for a long time. In many parties, a 7th level cleric is likely not to be as combat intensive as he was at lower levels, and so picking up that desired feat can become moot. Having said all this, I recommend being a cleric for the first three levels. Pick up a single level of fighter (to gain that feat or that "flavor" you desire) once training for 4th, and then return to being a cleric. The cleric's second level cure moderate will be essential to last your party through the next three levels until you reach 6th level and gain that third level spell capability.
deafbymetal 12-31-05, 10:05 AM	My two coppers. I think it a lot of it boils down to a couple of things- what does the party already have, what role does the player wish to fill with his character, and what character concept he is shooting for? His domain choices are a good indication of where he wants to go. If he took healing, shoot for pure cleric. If one domain is war (for the free weapon focus feat), take some levels of fighter. I have a character I've played off and on since second edition. I converted him from a "Dwarven Champion" from the 2e book "Complete Book of Dwarves". It made him a type of paladin for dwarves, when dwarves were not allowed in that class. When I converted him I took 6 levels of fighter, the rest cleric, and later added Runecaster (Forgotten Realms) levels, as that was what I saw him as being. I chose not to take levels of paladin because that is not how I saw him being. And while not "optimized", he is extremely fun to play, and had a pretty good range of roles in the party. Another thing to keep in mind is PrC's. Most of them have to be planned for early. If the player wants a particular one, he has to start asap to get the skills, feats, etc. to do it, which may influence what route he goes. The main thing to remember is- have fun! Glad your trying D&D out, and hope it gives you years of enjoyment, as it has for many of us here on these boards.
Sir Knight 12-31-05, 10:09 AM	There isn't a reason to multi-class unless you WANT to for character development or to qualify for a Prestige Class. I had a Dwarven Cleric 9 duel my friend's Half-Orc Barbarian 6/Frenzied Berserker 3 and stomped him. BELIEVE me, his character is out of control and butch (something like 30 STR when fully Raged and Frenzied) but with Divine Power and a few other clerical "buff" spells cast on myself, I was a Large-sized Dwarf with 120 HP, 10' reach, and 28 STR. Stick with straight Cleric... trust me. :)
Father Dale 12-31-05, 09:16 PM	I've played a couple Dwarven clerics of Moradin over the years. In fact, my name is the name of my first Dwarven Cleric of Moradin :) Always fun to play. There are a couple prestige classes that fit right in, although in most cases you are better off just going straight cleric. Heres some decent possiblities: 1. Church Inquisitor (Complete Divine). Full caster progression. Very easy to qualify for, in fact, can be done by lvl 4 so that the PRC can be taken at 5th level. Just need to make sure to spend the skill points (which are typically very few for a dwarven cleric) on the right skills. But shouldn't be a problem. By going CI, you give up increased turning power and the good Fort save. In exchange, you get some nice abilities, including immunity to charms, compulsions, and possession, bonuses against illusions and disguises, and some truth telling abilities. You also get the Inquisition Domain, which has a fantastic domain ability, giving a +4 to dispell checks, and there are very very few ways to increase dispell checks past the dispell magic caster level limits. So, all in all probably an even trade, maybe a bit better for the Dwarf cleric due to his generally high fort save such that the loss of the increased base fort save won't be as bad. 2. Contemplative. (Complete Divine). Full caster progression. Also easy to qualify for assuming you meet the RP requirement. You give up increased turn undead, and you get the lower fort save, d6 HD instead of d8, and you get the 1/2 BAB progression. In exchange you get a bonus domain and some nice abilities. For a Dwarven cleric, probably not the best thing to do after 2 levels of Contemplative, which would give the bonus domain, disease immunity, and slippery mind. Dwarven clerics tend to wade into melee, and so the hps and BAB are good to have. 3. Hospitaler (Complete Divine). loses 3 caster levels over 10 levels. This can work well for the dwarven cleric who wants more melee power. Not real easy to qualify for as a cleric, without at least one level of paladin or fighter for the skill requirements, plus the 2 feats aren't usually taken by dwarven clerics, although you would eventually get them back via the Hospitaler's bonus feats. You give up increased turning, a few caster levels, and the good will save for full BAB, lay on hands, a few fighter bonus feats, and remove disease as a spell like ability. I actually played one of these with a dwaven cleric/paladin who had a clestial rhinocerous as his special mount. It was very fun to cast Righteous Might on myself and the rhino! 4. Sacred Exorcist (Complete Divine). Full caster progression. This is a good PRC for any cleric. Easy for clerics to get into, just have to keep dumping the skill points into knowledge (planes). Only thing you lose over straight cleric is the good fort save. You keep the undead turning. In exchange for the fort save you get some very nice abilities, including a constant Consecrate centered on you at 5th level, and holy aura as a spell like ability once a day later on. Plus some benefits versus possessions. 5. Warpriest (Complete Divine). Half caster progression. This works good for the dwarven cleric who wants to do melee, although the loss of full caster progression does hurt. Not hard to get into, you need one feat that isn't a bad idea for dwarven clerics anyways. Have to dump points into a couple class skills though. You trade off the good will save and full caster progression, but get full BAB progression. You keep the undead turning. You get the Glory domain, which is a very very good domain (includes bless weapon and Holy sword as domain spells!). You get some bard-like abilities to help your companions. You get a fear aura. You also get some decent spell like abilities 1/day. The capstone ability allows you to let your companions keep fighting if dropped below 0 hps, although they die if they hit -20. Not bad, but probably not worth the caster level loss unless you have another caster in the party. 6. Thaumaturgist (DMG). Full caster progression. 5 level PRC. You give up the increased undead turning and goof Fort save, you get 1/2 BAB progression and a d4 HD instead of d8. Not hard to get into, requires one feat that isn't a real bad choice if you plan to do some summoning. You get some very nice abilities related to summoning monsters, including free Augmented summoning and all your summoning spells are automatically extended. You also get a Contingent summoning, which can be useful, and you get some benefits related to using the planar ally spell. The capstone ability is a Planar Cohort, which can be extremely nice and can probably make up for the loss of the normal cleric abilities all by itself. I played a dwarven cleric/thaumaturgist and it was fun, but the campaign ended when i was cleric 8/thaum 3. It was nice summoning a bunch of augmented celesital bison though! 7. Fist of Raziel (Exalted Deeds). -1 caster progression. This is a powerful PRC. Straight Cleric can qualify for it by lvl 8. Need two feats, one of which is kinda lame, but power attack is the other and is definitely a good choice for a melee cleric. You give up the undead turning and good will save, and you lose one caster level at 1st lvl. In exchange, you get a d10 HD, full BAB, and some very very nice abilities. You get a constant magic circle vs evil. You also get a smite evil ability every other level, and it gets some real nice abilities associated with that. You get a nifty ability to deal extra damage to evil items and constructs. And at 10th level every weapon you wield is treated as holy! Be mindful of the RP involved though. Raziel isn't a god, so its not like you are giving up Moradin for raziel, and the two are probably very friendly with each other, both being lawful good and residing on the same plane. Raziel is probably a bit more aggressive than Moradin, although Moradin is no slouch when it comes to divine retribution. This class basically turns the cleric into a fighter with cleric spellcasting. Very powerful. 8. Shadowbane Stalker (Complete Adventurer). -2 caster levels over 10 levels. This would require at least one level of rogue to get sneak attack. (That would give trapfinding too, which works real well with stonecunning). Otherwise, just have to dump some skill points, which the rogue level should satisfy. You give up the increased undead turning and the good fort save, but get a good reflex save instead. You get 6 sps a level instead of 2, and have a very nice class skill list. You get increased sneak attack damage every 3 levels, and you get some abilities related to stealth and AC, plus some bonuses to Search and Sense Motive. Not a bad PRC, but doesn't seem to fit the concept of a dwarven cleric too much, although it could definitely work. Hope that helps!