Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zardnaar 04-29-07, 06:19 PM	I've a question regarding Clerics/divine caster of a dead god/patron/demonlord etc. Can they continue to utilise magical item such as spell scrolls, staffs etc? I know in Forgotten Realms they can but is there any official ruling on this topic? I was involved in a discussion with another poster and their point of view was to treat them as a ex cleric that has lost their class abilities. No spells=no spell list = no magic scrolls for you. Overall its been a reasonably polite disagreement and I'm interested to know. Note that this is a specific campaign world and the godless cleric pick 2 domains option isn't available as per the PHB rules on Clerics. Personally I would allow it but is there any official rule?
JLaurHughes 04-29-07, 06:52 PM	One side says no the other says why not, well I say, non-domain spells not restricted while domain spells are.....Depends on the world you're running really. That's where creative license comes in.
Sphere 04-29-07, 07:00 PM	I would say yes, the cleric can use a spell trigger item. Just remember: A dead deity is simply unable to grant spells to their followers. To use a spell trigger item you only need to have the spell on your spell list, not the ability to cast a spell. You have to break the rules of your deity to become an ex-cleric and lose your spell list.
Sysane 04-29-07, 07:09 PM	There's no official rules on what happens to a cleric if his god dies though. All we have to refer to in this instance is that of the ex-cleric mechanics. Those rules state that they lose all class features which having a spell list falls under.
Zardnaar 04-29-07, 07:13 PM	So a Cleric od a dead deity is still a Cleric and wouldn't be subject to the ex Cleric rules since he didn't violate his faith? How about a Cleric of a god of murder who murders his own god:P
Sysane 04-29-07, 07:27 PM	So a Cleric od a dead deity is still a Cleric and wouldn't be subject to the ex Cleric rules since he didn't violate his faith? I feel its more that the god has revoked the cleric's divine privileges which come in the form of bestowed abilities. With no deity to bestow those said abilities the cleric is SOL.
Neutronium_Dragon 04-29-07, 07:31 PM	Keep in mind that other deities may choose to stand in for the dead one, particularly if they share similar portfolios. Also, since it's not strictly required that a cleric worship a deity in the generic setting, the cleric probably wouldn't lose his powers anyway because he's still committed to his cause even if the figurehead of that cause is dead. (In the FR it wouldn't work because you absolutely can't get divine spellcasting except from a deity. Eberron ends up being a whole different kettle of fish both because deities there aren't particularly killable and even if they were it wouldn't affect anyone's spellcasting.)
Zardnaar 04-29-07, 07:35 PM	This is a different setting than FR but the rules are basically the same. There are beings that can grant spells to their followers and elemental clerics and thats about it for divine casters. You can't be a godless divine caster there as per the PHB.
penchant 04-29-07, 07:55 PM	Actually, by the rules a cleric of a dead god is no different than a cleric of a perfectly alive one. Since clerics can worship ideals, ancestors, nature, obscure concepts or even Banjo a cleric can also worship the idea of a god, even if that god no longer exists. When he dies, he will be in for a sorry surprise, but while alive he might be none the wiser. Gods don't grant spells, faith does.
Sysane 04-29-07, 08:10 PM	Some clerics devote themselves not to a god but to a cause per the PHB. Clerics that are devoted to a cause or an ideal are thematically different than ones that worship an actual divine being. I may add that the setting we're discussing is that of Dark Sun where one of the sources of divine magic is thru a non-divine being known as a Sorcerer-King (for those not familiar with the setting).
penchant 04-29-07, 09:34 PM	Some clerics devote themselves not to a god but to a cause per the PHB. Clerics that are devoted to a cause or an ideal are thematically different than ones that worship an actual divine being. I may add that the setting we're discussing is that of Dark Sun where one of the sources of divine magic is thru a non-divine being known as a Sorcerer-King (for those not familiar with the setting). But you are not asking thematic questions. You are asking how do clerics of a dead god work. You are asking if they can use spell completion items, but your post indicates that you already assumed that they lose spell casting ability and are ex-clerics. I'm saying that this assumption, by the rules, is incorrect. What I am saying is that not only can a cleric of a god who has died continue to use spell completion items, but can still cast spells, use domain powers and spells and even preach that the god has not died but still lives. Thematically if it is demonstrated that the god is dead then the cleric should lose faith and THEN can no longer cast spells. But he might also have enough faith to disbelieve the proof and continue on resolute in the belief that he is merely being tested. In 2nd edition, it was clearly defined where divine power comes from. Clerics got 1-3rd level spells on faith alone, 4th and 5th level spells were delivered daily by divine emmisaries like Astral Divas and 6th and 7th level spells were recieved directly from the diety(IIRC). If the god died, then you could still recieve spells from the lesser beings and so up to 5th level spells. If another diety intervened in opposition to the dead one, then the lesser beings could not do this and you had only 1-3 levels. Many of the story lines in the campaign setting that involve this come from these legacy rules (starting with the Time of Troubles in FR that tried to explain the transition from 1st ed to 2nd ed rules). It is entirely up to the DM what happens to the gods, the church and the priests in such a situation. A church might chug along without its god while the high priest realizes he just got ultimate control. Another god might step in and take control of the church and start changing subtley for its own ends (esp. evil). Or all priests might become ex priests and chaos ensues.
Sysane 04-29-07, 10:15 PM	Fair enough. However, lets look at this in another way. Lets say a cleric is in campaign setting in which divine spell casting can't be gained by pure faith alone, but only through the will of powerful god-like being? With the death of that being, and no other capable of stepping into their role, would the cleric still be able to use spell completion items?
penchant 04-30-07, 02:15 AM	Fair enough. However, lets look at this in another way. Lets say a cleric is in campaign setting in which divine spell casting can't be gained by pure faith alone, but only through the will of powerful god-like being? With the death of that being, and no other capable of stepping into their role, would the cleric still be able to use spell completion items? Ok then. In this case he would still be able to use spell completion items, with the possible exception of staves. The knowledge of how to use them is still there and reading scrolls, activating wands, etc. is a fucntion of knowledge of the mechanics. That's why a rogue's UMD works. The reason why staves may not work anymore is because they use your caster level and ability modifers. You may rule that they either don't work or just use the minimum like any other item does. If you want to limit the effect, then grant the ex-cleric a UMD skill equal to his previous caster level usable only for items that he would have used as a funtioning cleric. That way he still has some function, but not full use.
runestar 04-30-07, 02:26 AM	There is a feat in Power of Faerun which lets you continue receiving spells from a dead god. I believe you can still use spell trigger items, since they only require that you have said spell on your spell list, not that you are actually able to cast said spell. There is so such thing as an ex-cleric, or what would happen if you stopped worshiping a deity. So one can surmise that apart from the inability to receive new spells, you do not lose anything else. I am not aware of any actual ruling though, but that will be how I would play it.
crimsonwolf 04-30-07, 02:55 AM	its relly simply... chuga chuga cho cho i chosee you two i worship you boo wooo and climb up the coccunut tree you die boo wooo then comes along b saying chuga chuga cho cho i chose you two b sees all telling the others waht to do bcd all coming along cuga chuga cho cho i chose you two now if no one climbs up the cocunt tree and a falls down laying all dead chuga chuga choo choo you have no one now.
Perun 04-30-07, 03:03 AM	There is a feat in Power of Faerun which lets you continue receiving spells from a dead god. The feat in Power of Faerūn is Heretic of the Faith, and it let's you worsip your patron deity even if you're following a heresy (some of those might involve dead deities, but that's a side-effect, really). Servant of the Fallen, a feat from Lost Empires of Faerūn, allows you to continue receiving spells and powers from a dead power. IMO, if you worship a dead deity following its dogma and are of an appropriate alignment, you are a cleric of the said deity, except you cannpt cast spells, access domain powers, turn (or rebuke) undead, and you don't radiate an alignment aura. You have a spell list (but you're unable to access spells from that list), BAB, saves, and skills of a cleric. You can take metamagic, item creation, and divine feats, but can't use them.
Sysane 04-30-07, 07:20 AM	If you want to limit the effect, then grant the ex-cleric a UMD skill equal to his previous caster level usable only for items that he would have used as a funtioning cleric. That way he still has some function, but not full use. Now, if you use the ex-cleric rules for clerics of a dead isn't having a spell list a class feature? If it is, you would not be able to use spell spell completion items. Thoughts?
Zardnaar 04-30-07, 08:52 AM	I think in this case you should go with commen sense in regards to a dead divine patron. The ex cleric losing spells is bad enoughstrip away the magic items and you've got a very bad warrior.
penchant 04-30-07, 09:14 AM	Like I said, I don't think you should use ex-cleric rules. I don't think you should lose anything, but you constrained the rules of the discussion. Given the fact that divine power comes from the deities and not faith in a campaign specific situation, and said deity died then the priest would lose access to spellcasting and domain powers but not spell completion items. The priest is not an ex-cleric for violating an oath, so loses nothing more than necessary. By the same token if another diety started granting the spells of the dead god's clergy (as did Cyric after he ascended for many of the priests of Baal) then the priest would be back in full force again, while a cleric who had violated his alignment would still be classless.
Sysane 04-30-07, 10:01 AM	Or it gives the cleric even more of a reason to seek out a new god and set of beliefs in order to regain their lost abilities. A crisis of faith usually triggers a re-evaluation of ones belief system.
runestar 04-30-07, 10:06 AM	But in this case, it is not so much a crisis of faith as your deity simply not existing. You still believe in his ideals, just that he is no longer around to grant you spells. It makes little sense for the cleric to suddenly just jump ship due to a sense of pragmatism. More likely, another god might just choose to continue granting him spells in the guise of the dead god, so he can control him and use him for his own ends.:P
Maraxus 04-30-07, 10:21 AM	-Gods don't just die every day. There are probably more living gods then dead gods in most pantheons. -Gods don't die like ordenary people, more like marvel superheros - for them, death is only a minor inconvenience. Divine energy is not simply lost. With that two points, I think it is save to make a personal solution for every case. I think a dead god's priest would not work like an ordenary cleric. Not the wonder-mashiene. I'd make him more a kind of person that evoks the very unique characteristics from his dead god (or from his echos in the force) and uses them ... I think the magic of incarnum rules would have the right feeling for them, but with other visuals (so not blue unless the dead god liked blue) and maybe slight chance to the available powers.
Sysane 04-30-07, 10:35 AM	I'd imagine that most clerics would lose faith due to not being granted spells by the dead deity. Wouldn't that lack of faith constitute as a transgression and therefore push the cleric into the ex-cleric category? It would be a rare individual that would be able to maintain their faith after a perceived abandonment of their god.
Sysane 04-30-07, 10:54 AM	Gaining power from a dead entity falls under pact magic and vestiges from ToM. I figured this had some pertinence to this topic.
Ogg 04-30-07, 11:24 AM	You might want to check out some of the new classes in Complete Psionic if you're playing Dark Sun. Since it's one of the few campaigns that psionics is very welcomed in it's a chance to play with them. Ardents are very close to clerics without a diety. They believe in ideas & have granted psionic powers based on them. The other class in that is almost a Quixotic(sp) paladin who believes in a god but has psionic granted powers if your going for that angle. They're both aimed at things very close to domains, have existing mechanics & would give you the material you need to be a worshiper. They would make great steps towards someone trying to restart a religion.
Sysane 04-30-07, 12:15 PM	I'm very familiar with Dark Sun and the ardent. Thanks :) At this point, I'm more concerned over the ex-cleric's ability to use spell completion items.
Nephlite 04-30-07, 12:52 PM	Gaining power from a dead entity falls under pact magic and vestiges from ToM. I figured this had some pertinence to this topic. Yeah, Binders rule. So what if it fdied: I can make it live again (for the day)
gullas 04-30-07, 01:48 PM	How about a Cleric of a god of murder who murders his own god:P WE could do that:plotting:
kalstrand 04-30-07, 02:33 PM	You might also consider looking at the Ur-Priest prestige class. Start stealing your divine powers from other gods in an effort to return your god to power.
Zardnaar 04-30-07, 05:57 PM	I don't know if lose of spellcasting power would kill a priest hood off. In real life not a single priest/rabbi/iman/whatever can cast a single spell. A D&D faith whose god died still has their organisation tofall back on and unless it rapidly gets absorbed by another faith or a new god arises to replace the old one I would assume ressurecting their god would become one of the main prioritys of their faith.
penchant 05-01-07, 07:14 AM	I don't know if lose of spellcasting power would kill a priest hood off. In real life not a single priest/rabbi/iman/whatever can cast a single spell. A D&D faith whose god died still has their organisation tofall back on and unless it rapidly gets absorbed by another faith or a new god arises to replace the old one I would assume ressurecting their god would become one of the main prioritys of their faith. Hell, that's what the whole Cult of Cthulu is based on! That and ending the universe...
thadusthemighty 05-01-07, 08:00 AM	In Complete Divine under the description of the prestige class Ur-Priest the section under the Adaption heading (page 70) seems to pretty much say that clerics do indeed lose their powers when their deities die......and i quote......."This prestige class is written to describe characters who steal divine power from the gods and use it themselves. Its also a good choice however for ex clerics of gods who somehow lose there connections to their deity (because their deity died, disappeared, or faded from existence because he had too few worshipers). Secret societies of ur-priests could exist for the express purpose of elevating ( or reelevating) someone or something to godhood." So if your god either dies, disappears, or fades from existence the text seems to imply that you lose your connection and become an ex-cleric. However you can take levels in Ur Priest and gain a lot of that power back so all is not completely hopeless..... As for what happens when a cleric murders his own god.....well you might just become a god yourself.....after all thats what happened with Cyric in the Forgotten Realms setting.....
thadusthemighty 05-01-07, 08:07 AM	In Complete Divine in the description of the Ur-Priest the paragraph under the Adaption heading (page 70) seems to pretty much say that clerics do indeed lose their powers when their deities die......and i quote......."This prestige class is written to describe characters who steal divine power from the gods and use it themselves. Its also a good choice however for ex clerics of gods who somehow lose there connections to their deity (because their deity died, disappeared, or faded from existence because he had too few worshipers). Secret societies of ur-priests could exist for the express purpose of elevating ( or reelevating) someone or something to godhood." So if your god either dies, disappears, or fades from existence the text implies that you lose your divine connection and become an ex-cleric. It is under adaptation after all so its not really that solid, but its the only thing i can find in the official core source books i have that says anything about what happens to clerics when a deity dies. Settings like Forgotten Realms are often special cases. Each setting has its own house rules that deviate greatly from the core rules (a case in point is clerics and alignment in Eberron). So just because you find a rule or two in a Settings source book doesn't make it true for the whole of DnD. In the end it all depends on the world and your DM as always. As for what happens when a cleric murders his own god.....well you might just become a god yourself.....after all thats what happened with Cyric in the Forgotten Realms setting.....he wasn't a cleric but if you murder a god you could inherit his "Portfolio" like Cyric.
Sysane 05-01-07, 08:51 AM	Its also a good choice however for ex clerics of gods who somehow lose there connections to their deity (because their deity died, disappeared, or faded from existence because he had too few worshipers). Well, that pretty much clarifies that clerics of a dead god are treated as an ex-cleric.
Zardnaar 05-01-07, 10:10 AM	Well, that pretty much clarifies that clerics of a dead god are treated as an ex-cleric. Also the context it is taken in seems to imply that the Ur Priest is better than a Cleric with no spells. Once agian it doesn't really address the specific question of it doesn't really represent the specific question regarding scrolls and staves for example. heck can an Ur Priest even exist on Athas?
Sysane 05-01-07, 10:24 AM	Also the context it is taken in seems to imply that the Ur Priest is better than a Cleric with no spells. Once agian it doesn't really address the specific question of it doesn't really represent the specific question regarding scrolls and staves for example. Didn't state that it did, just that they're treated as ex-clerics. The question now becomes if having a spell list is considered a class feature or not.
JLaurHughes 05-01-07, 10:57 AM	I would say spell completion and Spell trigger items(Scrolls and Wands) would be usable, with the appropriate rolls, like UMD, unless of course the cleric is one who is a cleric of an ideal rather than a god. PHB makes it clear enough about Clerics who don't worship a god still being able to cast spells, though there is a difference between worshiping a god that died vs worshiping an ideal.
penchant 05-01-07, 10:22 PM	In Complete Divine in the description of the Ur-Priest the paragraph under the Adaption heading (page 70) seems to pretty much say that clerics do indeed lose their powers when their deities die......and i quote......."This prestige class is written to describe characters who steal divine power from the gods and use it themselves. Its also a good choice however for ex clerics of gods who somehow lose there connections to their deity (because their deity died, disappeared, or faded from existence because he had too few worshipers). Secret societies of ur-priests could exist for the express ... I would be highly dubious of an inference taken from a flavor text entry from a single PrC in a non-core book. If this has not been clearly addressed in articles directly referring to the situation, it is pretty obtuse to take this as RAW. If this was an official "that's the way it is" ruling by wizards, I would think it would be stated in the same book under the deities section. The only book that specifically deals with it, Deities and Demigods, specifically does not provide one answer but a variety of possibilities for the DM to choose from. As there is no 3.5 counter to this, the rules still are valid and default to, "Its up to the DM to design his cosmology." Once again, it is the DM's best judgement on how he wants the world to work. In addition to deciding the physics of divine power, a DM also has to decide what will be fun for a player to play and what will turn out to be a lousy PC crippling decision. These area's are vague and nonspecific for a reason. If a paladin loses his powers he at least has a 1-1 BAB and D10 HD to fall back on. IF you must decide that not only is a cleric powerless, but also loses all his divine skills and magic item access, then allow him to trade in cleric levels for a related PrC in the same manner that Blackguard and Ronin do for their respective classes. But once again I suggest leave the cleric alone and allow the drama to be in the roleplaying and not on the character sheet.
thadusthemighty 05-03-07, 01:04 PM	I think the problem here is that you think its too harsh and unfair to suddenly penalize a cleric player by making him an ex cleric when his god dies. Sure an Ex Cleric is temorarily powerless but there are several ways that he can regain all his clerical powers as mentioned in Deities and Demigods and other sources. He can always convert to the worship of another god for one. Theres the Ur Priest prestige class. And finally he can switch over to the worship of an ideal. Its not if he is abosutely forbidden from ever gaining a level as cleric ever again or ever using divine magic. Paladins and Druids both can suddenly lose there class features just like a cleric after all. There are ways to make up for it. It takes time to reorient however. It cant be done in just a round or two. Said cleric needs to recover from the sudden shock and time to find a new source for his clerical power....untill then hes pretty much powerless. The cleric is indeed in a world of hurt if hes in combat when his deity dies....but so is a wizard caught in a antimagic field or fighter who failed his save to a hold person spell while being surrounded by a group of rogues. Life is unfair sometimes get used to it...
Nephlite 05-03-07, 02:50 PM	I think the problem here is that you think its too harsh and unfair to suddenly penalize a cleric player by making him an ex cleric when his god dies. Sure an Ex Cleric is temorarily powerless but there are several ways that he can regain all his clerical powers as mentioned in Deities and Demigods and other sources. He can always convert to the worship of another god for one. Theres the Ur Priest prestige class. And finally he can switch over to the worship of an ideal. Its not if he is abosutely forbidden from ever gaining a level as cleric ever again or ever using divine magic. Paladins and Druids both can suddenly lose there class features just like a cleric after all. There are ways to make up for it. It takes time to reorient however. It cant be done in just a round or two. Said cleric needs to recover from the sudden shock and time to find a new source for his clerical power....untill then hes pretty much powerless. The cleric is indeed in a world of hurt if hes in combat when his deity dies....but so is a wizard caught in a antimagic field or fighter who failed his save to a hold person spell while being surrounded by a group of rogues. Life is unfair sometimes get used to it... Druids never lose their powers temporarily unless you mean wearing metal armor so lose it for day. Paladins don't have to serve gods so doesn't effect them (some Campaign force a diety though): only CoC breaking loses powers.
FRRC 05-03-07, 03:14 PM	I always allowed the use of dead Gods considering that there is some remnant of the God existing in the Plane. A Cleric's powers could be "charged" from the essence of that dead God. Take Bhaal's clerics as an example. I would rule that the Clerics pull their power from the essence that flows through the Winding Waters. If it was someone washed away/cleared/banished, the powers would stop.