Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Khazzan 03-01-08, 09:16 PM	Well, a new character is needed for a game that starts next week, and I had an idea about RPing a cleric who is all about death from a more philosophical angle rather than a bloodshed and slaughter angle perhaps. Something like Death as proper and natural end, Death as necessary path of Life, Death as something to be "given" to opponents in order to increase the balance with Life, and so forth. Kind of like an intelligent and philosophical outlook, an interest in Undeath and a creepy nonchalant attitude toward gruesome, violent death. Wednesday Addams all grown up, maybe! ;) He or she might follow Nerull perhaps or Wee Jas, and eventually seek a Necromantic path (but I'm not too sure about that class). Anyway, we roll 5d6 and discard lowest 2 for our game, so here are the stats available: 14, 17, 13, 16, 17, 15 I'm not overly concerned about melee, although I know clerics can do fairly well in melee if needed to. Domains would be Death and Trickery (Nerull) or Death and Knowledge (?) (Wee Jas). I would love some suggestions regarding mapping out the character's level/feat progression and any suggestions for a prestige class, since I have never played a cleric before. Books allowed are Core + All Complete X books (and nothing more). Thanks in advance!
dman11235 03-02-08, 12:00 AM	Not Nerull. Nerull is death in an evil way. We Jas is perfect. Absolutely perfect for your needs. Death and Knowledge would be my pick. If you want to forgo melee all together and focus more on the philosophy, you might try the cloistered cleric variant in UA (also found on the SRD). In that case, death and one other WJ domain, as you'll get the Knowledge domain as a bonus domain. Wisdom is a 17, charisma 17, con 16, str 15, int 14, dex 13. Dang those are nice. If you do the cloistered, you will have a bunch of skills. Might want to check out CChamp for the Devotion feats. Death Devotion. And Knowledge, but mostly death.
I_roll_ones 03-02-08, 12:48 AM	If the word natural pops up in your backstory, a god that allows for undeath isn't going to work, in my opinion. This is just me, but maybe a LN follower of Pelor/Other god opposed to undeath? The character is more inclined to end undeath then to save lives, seeing it as their point in life to see to it that all undead, an unnatural thing, is ended, and those who commited the crime of necromancy killed. Just a suggestion. Got complete Warrior? Zen Archery, WIS to attacks with a bow. Use your spells to buff the fighter(They will probably love you) or other appropriate meat shield. Summon in some help, dispel some debuffs, and shoot out some curses. Just for giggles, prepare Black Karma Curse from PHBII. It makes your opponent smack them self. If you use Zen Archery, buy up some full plate and just attack from range with a longbow. You'll either need to be an elf or to buy up proficiency, but crossbows can be annoying. STR 14 DEX 13 CON 15 INT 16 WIS 17 CHA 17 Or somesuch, for human. Fort and REF saves are not so hot, but the charisma might help if you buy up some talky skills. Of course, it is good with returning undead to death. Of course, if your character is rather creepy, given their fascination with death... STR 14 DEX 15 CON 16 INT 17 WIS 17 CHA 13
dman11235 03-02-08, 01:11 AM	See, We Jas is all about natural death. That's why she's perfect.
The_Shaman 03-02-08, 07:26 AM	Another vote for Wee Jas, unless you have really good concept reasons to go with Nerull - and it doesn't seem so. I'm not a fan of the Death domain unless you need it for PrC prerequisites (iirc Master of Shrouds required it); by and large Magic, Mind, or Domination can be much better. Knowledge is nice, too - I'd say as good as Mind - but iirc not a domain Wee Jas normally gives. Magic is really nice if no one else has good UMD checks, by the way: with a few wizard items - which a cleric of Wee Jas should be able to procure fairly easily - you can become much more versatile. For a PrC, I could see you entering something fairly generic such as divine oracle or contemplative. If Libris Mortis were allowed, the Master of Shrouds could be worth a look even though it focuses on calling undead - perhaps there is a time when your character decides that awakening the dead for a short while is the lesser evil. In general, your biggest choice is whether you want to keep your turn undead progression - it might be fairly unnecessary for most clerics, but you have both a flavor and a crunch reason to want to boost yours. By the way, if you would create undead, remember that a non-evil necromancer (especially a lawful one) would probably have a strict work ethic. I can think of three golden rules: don't do it when it's not necessary, don't make a soul do something that it would not do anyway, and clean up after yourself (meaning dismiss/destroy the undead when you no longer have need of them). All in all, you might want to check FR's Jergal (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Jergal), I've "exported" him for some of my non-FR characters as well. He's my favourite death deity, and imo can be a great fit for your character. Unlike Wee Jas, he has little affiliation with magic per se, and doesn't have her, well, vanity.
dman11235 03-02-08, 11:53 AM	But The_Shaman, (s)he wanted a death focused cleric. Doesn't it make sense to have the death domain? Also death devotion, even though that is far from the best domain feat. Far from the worst too (magic devotion). I second the Contemplative suggestion, but Divine Oracle doesn't seem to be the way to go flavor wise. Could make it work I suppose. Can't say much on Master of Shrouds, since I'm not familiar with it. The rest of your advice I agree with.
Divisionbyzer0 03-02-08, 12:46 PM	Not Nerull. Nerull is death in an evil way. We Jas is perfect. Absolutely perfect for your needs. Death and Knowledge would be my pick. If you want to forgo melee all together and focus more on the philosophy, you might try the cloistered cleric variant in UA (also found on the SRD). In that case, death and one other WJ domain, as you'll get the Knowledge domain as a bonus domain. Wisdom is a 17, charisma 17, con 16, str 15, int 14, dex 13. Dang those are nice. If you do the cloistered, you will have a bunch of skills. Might want to check out CChamp for the Devotion feats. Death Devotion. And Knowledge, but mostly death. Non-evil character often interpret the typical "evil dogma" of the church as merely being misguided. So you can neutral worshippers of guys like Gruumsh, Nerull, and Ernythul (or however the slaughter one is spelled) without much of a problem -- they just interpret and act on the dogmas a bit differently.
jradd777 03-02-08, 01:13 PM	Kelemvor is a good deity for a different way to look at death. He also supplies the Repose Domain as an option. In fact, Kelemvor was meant to open up a good or lawful option to death based clerics, if I remember what I read correctly. He is definitely strongly against undeath, however, as he sees it as denying the natural order of things, etc. I highly suggest reading up on him and his dogma (Forgotten Realms - Faiths and Pantheons). EDIT: Oops, I just noticed your restriction on books... I'd ask your DM is you could check out this one additional book somehow... because Kelemvor is perfect for what it seems you may want.
dman11235 03-02-08, 01:50 PM	The problem with that Division is that Nerull is all about the evil aspects of death. Undead, slaughter for the sake of death, etc. We Jas is the goddess in charge of death by natural means and such. Not all that into undead, etc. She is L/N for a reason. When it's your time to go, she's in charge. When war breaks out, assassins kill, evil overlords ethnic cleanse, that's when Nerull shows up.
Khazzan 03-02-08, 02:26 PM	Great suggestions, thank you all.... I hadn't considered the implications of Undead actually, and you guys bring up a great point: although "obsessed with death", the character would probably view the Undead as an aberration to the natural progress of things, so I suppose she wouldn't want to create Undead. She'd rather end them, to put them back onto the "right path" so to speak. But I wanted to have her somehow creepily interested in the process of Death and the end of life and all that, so maybe that would end up being more of an RP thing than a class or PrC thing. Wee Jas is the better deity you are right, at least for a character involved in Death in a more clinical way (although she would still appreciate the benefits reaped by combat and slaughter, even if she wasn't leading the combat herself). As far as Wee Jas and the Undead I noted this passage in her description: "As a death goddess, more people look to her for safe passage into the afterlife than harsher deities like Nerull...", so maybe that is a good way of explaining the character's dislike of Undead. The idea of being a slightly deranged, Death-obsessed follower of Pelor is kind of interesting; almost like a zealot who's become obsessed with the thing she is bound to destroy....although the lack of Death domain is problematic, unless maybe I can ask my DM to allow the character to take the Death domain (unlikely? too much rule-bending?) I'm not familiar with Master of Shrouds, and we won't be using Libris Mortis, but I'll see if I can check out a copy of the book at the book store. Finally, I'm not familiar with the Contemplative - what book is that in? And CChamp? Where is that found? I like this stat array too (yes we usually get good stats rolling 5d6, discard lowest 2): Human STR 14 DEX 13 CON 15 INT 16 WIS 17 CHA 17 Just for flavor I though I would switch DEX and CON (all her years of roaming around dank tombs and cold graves has left her in slightly susceptible health maybe, but agile from climbing into dark narrow catacombs and tunnels?) One more thing: as a slightly different character concept, would it be totally bizarre (read: useless character) to multi-class to Sorceress at some point to start her slide into Necromatic interests? Like maybe....eventually she just 'snaps' and begins to covet the thing which she has fought for so long? Thanks for all the info so far, it's appreciated! It's awesome to be able to post things and see all the good discussion and ideas that you guys come up with; kind of a nice way to flesh out a character idea with people who enjoy doing the same.
Divisionbyzer0 03-02-08, 02:33 PM	I'd swap CHA with CON. Years of being around the dead gave her a strong stomach and increased her hardiness at the expense of some social skills. Swap STR with DEX. Helps to be nimble when crawling around in slippery catacombs. I'd probably only do sorcerer if I was doing the mystic theurge PrC at some point.
dman11235 03-02-08, 02:34 PM	Contemplative is in CDiv. It's the perfect class for those who want a "deity-specific" PrC, but there isn't another one. About the con thing: why not have those years strengthen you to health problems? Like conditioning? Yes, unless you plan for it adaquately and go into Mystic Theurge. Arcane 10/divine 10 is a pretty worthless build, but arcane 5/divine 5/MT 10 is decent. You might be better off doing arcane 3/divine 7/MT 10 or divine 3/arcane 7/MT 10 though. This allows for some PrCs as well that advance either arcane or divine only (like contemplative). MT is less powerful than effective straight caster though. EDIT: Why Division? Charisma is a really good thing for clerics to have. and since the goal is a more scholarly character, why lower mental stats?
Divisionbyzer0 03-02-08, 02:40 PM	I'd rather have more hp than better turning. I don't see cha as a mental stat. Scholars spend more time in the ivory tower or in dusty tomes. A few exceptional, like the outgoing wonky professor types have exceptional charisma (think richard feynman), but I'd expect the rest to have lower CHA.
Khazzan 03-02-08, 02:44 PM	I hadn't thought of that; thanks to both of you: increasing CON makes more sense, since she's gotten tougher from all the time spent in the cold dark places. Charisma 15 is fairly high then, and I could increase it every 4 levels as she progresses anyway I suppose. And I will swap STR and DEX as well. Human STR 13 DEX 14 CON 17 INT 16 WIS 17 CHA 15 Okay, I will check out Mystic Theurge and Contemplative, with an eye toward cleric 3/sorcerer 7/MT 10 or cleric 3/sorcerer 7/Contemplative10 maybe. I'll have to read up on both those PrCs a bit first. Thanks again! ((Moderator: please feel free to move this thread if it is encroaching on Character Optimization ;) ))
jradd777 03-02-08, 02:49 PM	((Moderator: please feel free to move this thread if it is encroaching on Character Optimization ;) )) Encroaching on Character Development, too? ;)
Khazzan 03-02-08, 02:50 PM	Encroaching on Character Development, too? ;) LOL have I multi-classed a thread? yikes! :)
I_roll_ones 03-02-08, 03:35 PM	Wee Jas does allow for undead, seemingly, given that many of her followers are necromancers. How would the character react to a lawful necromancer(For the sake of argument, say LN) who is also a follower of Wee Jas? They are clerics/sorcerers, however, so if going for MT, that has a good solid RP basis. I will agree, don't multi-class without MT. Maybe even switch the INT and CON and go with Wizard/Cleric, not as much of a basis, but I doubt it will create an issue.
dman11235 03-02-08, 03:52 PM	Sorcerer does work better for MT builds: charisma synergy. You however are in the rare position of having godly stats to throw at it. You may get away with int 17/wis17/cha 16. The other benefit of wizaqrd is that you could do cleric 3/wizard 3/MT 10/Master Specialist (CMage) 4. MS would be great to do something like this with.
The_Shaman 03-02-08, 04:21 PM	But The_Shaman, (s)he wanted a death focused cleric. Doesn't it make sense to have the death domain? Also death devotion, even though that is far from the best domain feat. Far from the worst too (magic devotion). I second the Contemplative suggestion, but Divine Oracle doesn't seem to be the way to go flavor wise. Could make it work I suppose. Can't say much on Master of Shrouds, since I'm not familiar with it. The rest of your advice I agree with. It is good, but not necessary. Remember, most if not all death domain spells are cleric spells anyway. Apart from that, it's a matter of RP. Anyway, with more information on the character it seems Kelemvor would be a very solid choice for FR. The core pantheon is a bit trickier for the matter, but I say Wee Jas could work fairly well. As for multiclassing to arcane caster, I'd strongly advise against it, especially with sorcerer - it is a poor choice power-wise, as you're struggling with level 5 spells when you could hit level 7 ones. Besides, for a death-focused cleric Turn Undead should be a priority, and multiclassing usually weakens it. The main exception, True Necromancer from Libris Mortis, is imo a fairly weak class and not worth your time. If you want to do it regardless, wizard might be a better choice unless you're dead-set on spontaneous casting: your character has fairly good intelligence, and the studious approach of the wizard seems to tie in better with your character's personality. Also, I think Wee Jas prefered wizards anyway. My advice would be to have your DM update the Doomguide from Faiths and Pantheons for Wee Jas, or stay cleric if you want good turn undead, or go cleric 6/Divine Oracle 4/contemplative 10 if you want more casting and skills. BTW, the latter would work great with the feat that lets you spontaneously cast domain spells (Domain Spontaneity, iirc) as you'd have something like 6 domains. It costs a turn attempt, though.
dman11235 03-02-08, 04:40 PM	Exactly, a matter or RPing. The Death domain represents that. I don't know FR so I can't comment. Agreed, power-wise it's not the brightest move. And it is a hard thing to do right if you are new to clerics and casting in general. It's hard even for some experienced people. Wee Jas does prefer wizards. Magic domain. All about the necromancers.
pigknight 03-02-08, 07:58 PM	Or don't worship a god (don't shoot) and take death/cold or death/nature, death/cold is the necromancer domains and death/nature is the natural necromancer domains. Wee Jas has a lot of wizards (read Complete Champion) most of which wear black but might actually not know necromancy.
I_roll_ones 03-02-08, 08:06 PM	If playing Greyhawk, that is legal, and you don't get bogged down with the other bits of the god that don't mesh, and you can take the domains you want and are appropriate, and don't have to worry about WHICH mage casting class to pick. Your story seems fine, if I was a DM and the world had godless spellcasters, I'd allow it. Go for it, if that's okay with your character.
Lawkeeper 03-03-08, 04:23 AM	Wee Jas does allow for undead, seemingly, given that many of her followers are necromancers. How would the character react to a lawful necromancer(For the sake of argument, say LN) who is also a follower of Wee Jas? Weird. I've read saturday evening the article Core Beliefs : Wee Jas, in the Dragon issue from a couple years back. So, yes, Wee Jas allows the use of undeads. But she forbids her priests (and other magic users) of bringing back Suel souls ; all others are fair game. She also insists on behaving properly in society - so, don't go taking corpses from the cemetery where it's not legal. After all, her portfolio in the Suel pantheon includes the law and its intricacies (she's not LN only because she respects authority & the law and favors a hierarchical society, but she actually defined sets of law, including the laws of the physical world, including death). The whole rule of "not forcing a creature to act against its nature" also applies, as she transformed a willing succubus in a LE-variant of it, rather than forcefully use her (she was bound to a magic item). So, Khazzan, if you're able to get it, I strongly advise you to get that Dragon issue, if only for this article. It's very good roleplay-wise, albeit with very few mechanical novelties (only a spell, and a couple relics), so it's be useful even if your DM strongly restricts the material sources.;)
Khazzan 03-03-08, 01:28 PM	Weird. I've read saturday evening the article Core Beliefs : Wee Jas, in the Dragon issue from a couple years back. So, yes, Wee Jas allows the use of undeads. But she forbids her priests (and other magic users) of bringing back Suel souls ; all others are fair game. She also insists on behaving properly in society - so, don't go taking corpses from the cemetery where it's not legal. After all, her portfolio in the Suel pantheon includes the law and its intricacies (she's not LN only because she respects authority & the law and favors a hierarchical society, but she actually defined sets of law, including the laws of the physical world, including death). The whole rule of "not forcing a creature to act against its nature" also applies, as she transformed a willing succubus in a LE-variant of it, rather than forcefully use her (she was bound to a magic item). So, Khazzan, if you're able to get it, I strongly advise you to get that Dragon issue, if only for this article. It's very good roleplay-wise, albeit with very few mechanical novelties (only a spell, and a couple relics), so it's be useful even if your DM strongly restricts the material sources.;) Excellent suggestion; thanks! I will try and find that issue....does Paizo still have old issues for sale does anyone know?
The_Shaman 03-03-08, 01:44 PM	Her insistance on "freely willing" would be quite interesting, as she allows the Domination domain. Then again, as I understand Wee Jas has had some heavy retcons and quite of uncertainty around her since nearly day one.
Lawkeeper 03-03-08, 03:57 PM	Her insistance on "freely willing" would be quite interesting, as she allows the Domination domain. Then again, as I understand Wee Jas has had some heavy retcons and quite of uncertainty around her since nearly day one. I wasn't very clear. In the article, it's more "freely willing" in the sense "not against its nature, as defined by the universal laws of the universe". That is, the laws of the universe for chaotic creatures is to behave according to chaotic ideals and purposes, not for lawful ones. It's issue 350 by the way. December 2006, so barely a year's old. Available on Paizo's website : http://paizo.com/store/magazines/dragon/issues/2006/350
Khazzan 03-04-08, 04:40 PM	I wasn't very clear. In the article, it's more "freely willing" in the sense "not against its nature, as defined by the universal laws of the universe". That is, the laws of the universe for chaotic creatures is to behave according to chaotic ideals and purposes, not for lawful ones. It's issue 350 by the way. December 2006, so barely a year's old. Available on Paizo's website : http://paizo.com/store/magazines/dragon/issues/2006/350 Awesome; thanks for the link!
Divisionbyzer0 03-09-08, 12:13 AM	Search on the quasi-official 3.5 planescape webpage (http://www.planewalker.com)-- in their chapter on factions of the multiverse they have a PrC which may be of interest to you. The faction is "the dustmen"; and I think the PrC is "master of death" or some such. It grants the mortality domain among other deathly abilities along with full caster progression. This may be in accord with your character. There is another faction which believes the only thing that happens in the multiverse is eventual entropy or eventual decay, and they are there to speed it along and to divert it to where it would be better used -- I think this one is the doomgaurd. There might also be cool PrC in that faction for you. Philosophically the doomgaurd is probably more aligned with a natural death oriented cleric, but the dustman PrC looks cool. The dustmen have a kind of view that "life" is illusory and is just one of the many afterlives which occured after actual life, hence all the pain and suffering. They seek true death to end the cycle, kind of like nirvana, only they don't all agree on what the true death is. Somewhat of a nihilistic mystic view of death. Chapter 3 is factions, 4 is skills and feats -- under downloads. In any event the factions and the material of planescape is awesome reading to get philosophic angles on roleplaying, and should help your character in that sense. The Athar, and The Bleak Cabal, and the Mercy Killers could also be up your alley depending on which angle of death you want to play off of.