Cleric Offense [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cleric Offense [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
R3quiem
11-20-07, 09:54 PM I've never played a cleric before, and I'm wondering what kinds of things they normally use for offense, specifically at higher levels. Their defensive capabilities look amazing, but due to lack of experience I'm a little doubtful of their offensive capabilities.

-They have good spells, but don't have the flashy damaging spells of the wizard (especially at higher spell levels). Their damage output seems much lower.
-They can buff themselves pretty well for melee combat, but I wouldn't want to bring a cleric into straight combat with a fighter and all of his feats.

So, how do you guys recommend a cleric to fight a higher level enemy? Do I stay back and use spells against strong melee characters/monsters, and if so, which spells are best? What do I do with spellcasters- their spells are more potent than mine and there's no way I can get close for physical combat

Obviously the group would come into play in these situations, but I'm wondering what the cleric specifically would do against them.

Any advice would be appreciated.
Grizzled Gryphon
11-20-07, 10:06 PM Actually, I am pretty sure it has been proven quite a few times that a Cleric fully buffed would easily wipe the floor with an equal level fighter.

The damage spells are not the way to go, though. Even for the Wizard. Illusions, save or be screwed spells, and the like are the way to go. Go with buff spells for combat. You can easily have better AC, hit points, and Attack bonus then any fighter out there, given the time to buff.

Of course, that is the key; time. Even then, it has been tested on the boards here, where two characters, one a fighter and one a cleric, with exactly the same stats and the same levels and the same race, faced off in an arena style area. Then it was about 50/50, I think.
IdleAltruism
11-20-07, 10:17 PM Actually, I am pretty sure it has been proven quite a few times that a Cleric fully buffed would easily wipe the floor with an equal level fighter.

The damage spells are not the way to go, though. Even for the Wizard. Illusions, save or be screwed spells, and the like are the way to go. Go with buff spells for combat. You can easily have better AC, hit points, and Attack bonus then any fighter out there, given the time to buff.

Of course, that is the key; time. Even then, it has been tested on the boards here, where two characters, one a fighter and one a cleric, with exactly the same stats and the same levels and the same race, faced off in an arena style area. Then it was about 50/50, I think.

PvP is no way to compare regular characters. Actually there is a debate going on http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=951742 here. No one has been able to prove/make a melee equivalent character without cheesy means(even then they didn't preform amazingly well opposed to similarly cheesed non-casters).

The power of casters isn't in their ability to become frontliners, its everything but. Generally I'd suggest buffing and keeping your party members clean of pesky conditions. That with a few well placed wall of blades/stone and the occasional save or X will go a long way in making your party effective. Dispel Magic, Greater Magic Weapon, and spells like blasphemy/holy word if you can jack your caster level up somehow.
R3quiem
11-20-07, 10:52 PM Hey, thanks for the responses so far. A couple points:

-I realize Clerics can buff themselves to similar numbers as fighters, but with all their feats it just seems like they'd lose a melee battle. Things like improved disarm just seem to put it so highly in their favor. Am I missing something here?

-As for fighting high level wizards, I'm still interested in hearing some more ideas.
Karzach
11-20-07, 11:06 PM What level cleric are we talking? What books are available?

Talking just core, offensive spells I'd suggest:

1st: Doom (Will), Cause Fear (Will)

2nd: Hold person (Will)

3rd: Bestow Curse (Will), Blindness/Deafness (Fort)

4th: Poison (Fort)

5th: Plane Shift (Will), Slay Living (Fort)

6th: Harm (Will)

7th: Destruction (Fort)

9th: Energy Drain (Fort), Implosion (Fort)

Note that most of these don't deal damage, but tend to either horribly maim ability scores or defeat opponents in one spell (harm being the notable exception to this).
Pandapeep
11-21-07, 12:45 AM If you want to dish out DMG as a cleric, you could easily use Ordained Champion from Complete Champion.
Killer_Rabbit
11-21-07, 12:51 AM Theres a few things in Complete Divine that may be suited to your needs

Lvl 2 - Deific Vengeance (1d6 dam/ two caster levels)

Lvl 4 - Energy Vortex (1d8 +1 per caster level, any energy type)

Lvl 6 - Cometfall

Lvl 8 - Stormrage

You could also get somethings from your domains
InkBlot
11-21-07, 11:59 AM Hey, thanks for the responses so far. A couple points:

-I realize Clerics can buff themselves to similar numbers as fighters, but with all their feats it just seems like they'd lose a melee battle. Things like improved disarm just seem to put it so highly in their favor. Am I missing something here?

-As for fighting high level wizards, I'm still interested in hearing some more ideas.

Things like Disarming, Tripping, Grappling, and Bull Rushing are generally bad ideas for anybody. First and foremost, large or larger creatures get buckets of bonuses to resist these maneuvers. They have a +4 per size category, and they have greater strength scores to start with. A large creature can easily have a modifier eight points better than yours, even if you have the right feat. All the maneuvers require being in melee, and many allow the defender to screw you over if you fail.

Further, each maneuver has it's own quirks. Disarming is defeated by the humble locked gauntlet. Tripping a creature with more than two legs is virtually impossible. Bull Rushing has all the same problems as tripping. Grappling is literally impossible against anything two or more size categories larger than you (the check automatically fails). Sundering reduces loot, items usually have too many HP to chew through in one swing, and a smart creature will carry back-ups of any important items.

Clerics have class features which allow him to become larger and stronger; spells which allow him to metaphorically or literally become a giant monster. There's no reason for them not to have their god's holy symbol plastered on every other piece of equipment they own (defeating sundering). They can cast with one hand, so they might as keep their weapons locked on their gauntlets. Using special maneuvers in an arena battle against a Cleric is nearly as bad as using them in an average adventure against giant monsters. Unless the Cleric has access to polymorph, then it can be much worse.

But that's just special maneuvers.
gotbrain
11-21-07, 12:47 PM Hey, thanks for the responses so far. A couple points:

-I realize Clerics can buff themselves to similar numbers as fighters, but with all their feats it just seems like they'd lose a melee battle. Things like improved disarm just seem to put it so highly in their favor. Am I missing something here?

exactly right in my opinion.

-As for fighting high level wizards, I'm still interested in hearing some more ideas.

Silence always works well against a mage, otherwise a cleric should be buffing his allies or debuffing the enemy; if you choose the debuff method stick to fort save effects against wizards (like poison, blindness, slay living, etc.)
R3quiem
11-21-07, 01:16 PM Thanks for the answers and advice guys, just about all of it is really helpful.

Last question- can good Clerics really use spells like harm and energy-drain? They don't say "evil", but aren't they supposed to avoid using negative energy?
gullas
11-21-07, 02:25 PM beastow curse greater , bull strength and prismatic sphere are all good spells for clerical offense:D

only if theyre against necromancy , otherwise they can....

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
R3quiem 11-20-07, 09:54 PM	I've never played a cleric before, and I'm wondering what kinds of things they normally use for offense, specifically at higher levels. Their defensive capabilities look amazing, but due to lack of experience I'm a little doubtful of their offensive capabilities. -They have good spells, but don't have the flashy damaging spells of the wizard (especially at higher spell levels). Their damage output seems much lower. -They can buff themselves pretty well for melee combat, but I wouldn't want to bring a cleric into straight combat with a fighter and all of his feats. So, how do you guys recommend a cleric to fight a higher level enemy? Do I stay back and use spells against strong melee characters/monsters, and if so, which spells are best? What do I do with spellcasters- their spells are more potent than mine and there's no way I can get close for physical combat Obviously the group would come into play in these situations, but I'm wondering what the cleric specifically would do against them. Any advice would be appreciated.
Grizzled Gryphon 11-20-07, 10:06 PM	Actually, I am pretty sure it has been proven quite a few times that a Cleric fully buffed would easily wipe the floor with an equal level fighter. The damage spells are not the way to go, though. Even for the Wizard. Illusions, save or be screwed spells, and the like are the way to go. Go with buff spells for combat. You can easily have better AC, hit points, and Attack bonus then any fighter out there, given the time to buff. Of course, that is the key; time. Even then, it has been tested on the boards here, where two characters, one a fighter and one a cleric, with exactly the same stats and the same levels and the same race, faced off in an arena style area. Then it was about 50/50, I think.
IdleAltruism 11-20-07, 10:17 PM	Actually, I am pretty sure it has been proven quite a few times that a Cleric fully buffed would easily wipe the floor with an equal level fighter. The damage spells are not the way to go, though. Even for the Wizard. Illusions, save or be screwed spells, and the like are the way to go. Go with buff spells for combat. You can easily have better AC, hit points, and Attack bonus then any fighter out there, given the time to buff. Of course, that is the key; time. Even then, it has been tested on the boards here, where two characters, one a fighter and one a cleric, with exactly the same stats and the same levels and the same race, faced off in an arena style area. Then it was about 50/50, I think. PvP is no way to compare regular characters. Actually there is a debate going on http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=951742 here. No one has been able to prove/make a melee equivalent character without cheesy means(even then they didn't preform amazingly well opposed to similarly cheesed non-casters). The power of casters isn't in their ability to become frontliners, its everything but. Generally I'd suggest buffing and keeping your party members clean of pesky conditions. That with a few well placed wall of blades/stone and the occasional save or X will go a long way in making your party effective. Dispel Magic, Greater Magic Weapon, and spells like blasphemy/holy word if you can jack your caster level up somehow.
R3quiem 11-20-07, 10:52 PM	Hey, thanks for the responses so far. A couple points: -I realize Clerics can buff themselves to similar numbers as fighters, but with all their feats it just seems like they'd lose a melee battle. Things like improved disarm just seem to put it so highly in their favor. Am I missing something here? -As for fighting high level wizards, I'm still interested in hearing some more ideas.
Karzach 11-20-07, 11:06 PM	What level cleric are we talking? What books are available? Talking just core, offensive spells I'd suggest: 1st: Doom (Will), Cause Fear (Will) 2nd: Hold person (Will) 3rd: Bestow Curse (Will), Blindness/Deafness (Fort) 4th: Poison (Fort) 5th: Plane Shift (Will), Slay Living (Fort) 6th: Harm (Will) 7th: Destruction (Fort) 9th: Energy Drain (Fort), Implosion (Fort) Note that most of these don't deal damage, but tend to either horribly maim ability scores or defeat opponents in one spell (harm being the notable exception to this).
Pandapeep 11-21-07, 12:45 AM	If you want to dish out DMG as a cleric, you could easily use Ordained Champion from Complete Champion.
Killer_Rabbit 11-21-07, 12:51 AM	Theres a few things in Complete Divine that may be suited to your needs Lvl 2 - Deific Vengeance (1d6 dam/ two caster levels) Lvl 4 - Energy Vortex (1d8 +1 per caster level, any energy type) Lvl 6 - Cometfall Lvl 8 - Stormrage You could also get somethings from your domains
InkBlot 11-21-07, 11:59 AM	Hey, thanks for the responses so far. A couple points: -I realize Clerics can buff themselves to similar numbers as fighters, but with all their feats it just seems like they'd lose a melee battle. Things like improved disarm just seem to put it so highly in their favor. Am I missing something here? -As for fighting high level wizards, I'm still interested in hearing some more ideas. Things like Disarming, Tripping, Grappling, and Bull Rushing are generally bad ideas for anybody. First and foremost, large or larger creatures get buckets of bonuses to resist these maneuvers. They have a +4 per size category, and they have greater strength scores to start with. A large creature can easily have a modifier eight points better than yours, even if you have the right feat. All the maneuvers require being in melee, and many allow the defender to screw you over if you fail. Further, each maneuver has it's own quirks. Disarming is defeated by the humble locked gauntlet. Tripping a creature with more than two legs is virtually impossible. Bull Rushing has all the same problems as tripping. Grappling is literally impossible against anything two or more size categories larger than you (the check automatically fails). Sundering reduces loot, items usually have too many HP to chew through in one swing, and a smart creature will carry back-ups of any important items. Clerics have class features which allow him to become larger and stronger; spells which allow him to metaphorically or literally become a giant monster. There's no reason for them not to have their god's holy symbol plastered on every other piece of equipment they own (defeating sundering). They can cast with one hand, so they might as keep their weapons locked on their gauntlets. Using special maneuvers in an arena battle against a Cleric is nearly as bad as using them in an average adventure against giant monsters. Unless the Cleric has access to polymorph, then it can be much worse. But that's just special maneuvers.
gotbrain 11-21-07, 12:47 PM	Hey, thanks for the responses so far. A couple points: -I realize Clerics can buff themselves to similar numbers as fighters, but with all their feats it just seems like they'd lose a melee battle. Things like improved disarm just seem to put it so highly in their favor. Am I missing something here? exactly right in my opinion. -As for fighting high level wizards, I'm still interested in hearing some more ideas. Silence always works well against a mage, otherwise a cleric should be buffing his allies or debuffing the enemy; if you choose the debuff method stick to fort save effects against wizards (like poison, blindness, slay living, etc.)
R3quiem 11-21-07, 01:16 PM	Thanks for the answers and advice guys, just about all of it is really helpful. Last question- can good Clerics really use spells like harm and energy-drain? They don't say "evil", but aren't they supposed to avoid using negative energy?
gullas 11-21-07, 02:25 PM	beastow curse greater , bull strength and prismatic sphere are all good spells for clerical offense:D only if theyre against necromancy , otherwise they can....