Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Solik 06-16-06, 12:52 PM	I drafted the following class for a home-brew campaign setting, where I wanted divine casters to be more like temple clergy instead of roaming crusaders. As such, there's a very small amount of world-specific stuff in here, mostly revolving around the gods. It's mostly inconsequential, though; what I'm really looking for is an evaluation of the mechanics. I had several goals with this design. First, I wanted to make melee (or even archery) not a particularly good idea for single-classed characters of this role. Second, I wanted to expand their casting flexibility to more accurately reflect a priest praying for divine intervention. Third, I wanted to try to do away with hard daily limits as much as possible. Fourth, I wanted to make 20 levels as viable as PrCs. This class was inspired in part by Otto the Bugbear's roll to cast system for arcanists. Priest Whereas the cleric is a stalwart combatant with magic abilities comparable to a wizard, the priest is more concentrated on holy matters and communion with his chosen deity. Priests sacrifice the martial capacity of the standard cleric for significantly less limited magic capabilities. The priest is an attempt to re-tool the divine caster role for Aelia. Most clerics should probably be priests instead (exceptions: clerics of Taelor and Barandor seem to fit those deities better than priests, for the most part). Adventurers: Priests generally consider adventuring a side job, something done when necessary to promote the cause of their chosen deities. Most aren't particularly suited to the harsh live of wandering and dungeon-crawling, leaning heavily on their faith and channeled divine power to see them through the challenges they face. Alignment: Priests come in all alignments, but they are usually fairly closely matched with that of their deity. Religion: All priests serve a specific god or goddess. Unlike clerics, priests cannot devote themselves merely to a cause. Lesser beings are incapable of channeling divine power into priests; therefore, while a powerful demon may have a cult following, none of them have the powers of a priest. Background: As with clerics, most priests join the church as young adults, with a few entering service at a young age. Priests of allied deities usually find enough common ground to get along, whereas priests of opposing deities are very prone to conflict. Races: All intelligent races are capable of having priests. Less-intelligent races tend to be stuck with adepts and shamans instead. Other Classes: Oftentimes, who a priest can get along with is defined by their chosen deity. A priest of Vikki will find much in common with bards and rogues, while a priest of Taelor would likely frown upon them. Priests are rarely leaders of an adventuring group, but they can make great advisors and diplomats. Role: The priest's role is primarily one of support and defense. Like wizards and sorcerers, priests should be protected by front-line combatants. GAME RULE INFORMATION Priests have the following game statistics. Abilities: Wisdom assists in spellcasting for priests. Constitution reduces spell failure and gives the priest much-needed hit points. Charisma is useful for diplomacy and turning undead. Alignment: A priest's alignment must be within one step of his deity's. A priest whose alignment strays from this range loses all class abilities until alignment is back within the valid range or the priest choses a new deity. Hit Die: d4. CLASS SKILLS The priest's class skills are as follows: Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Heal, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes), Profession, Sense Motive, and Spellcraft. Domains and Class Skills: A priest who chooses the Animal or Plant domain adds Knowledge (nature) to the class skill list. A priest who chooses the Knowledge domain adds all Knowledge skills to the class skill list. A priest who chooses the Travel doman adds Survival to the list. A priest who chooses Trickery adds Bluff, Disguise, and Hide to the list. Other domains may add additional skills to the list. Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) X 4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier. CLASS FEATURES All of the following are class features of the priest. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The priest is proficient with simple weapons only. Priests who choose the War domain gain proficiency with their deity's chosen weapon, if they do not already have it. The priest is not proficient with any type of armor or shields. Starting Gold: As Cleric. LVL BAB FORT REFL WILL SPECIAL 1 +0 +0 +0 +2 Aura, Spells, Domain (1st) 2 +1 +0 +0 +3 Turn or Rebuke Undead 3 +1 +1 +1 +3 Ritual Casting 4 +2 +1 +1 +4 5 +2 +1 +1 +4 Prayer Focus (1st) 6 +3 +2 +2 +5 7 +3 +2 +2 +5 Domain (2nd) 8 +4 +2 +2 +6 Attuned Channeling 9 +4 +3 +3 +6 10 +5 +3 +3 +7 Prayer Focus (2nd) 11 +5 +3 +3 +7 12 +6 +4 +4 +8 13 +6 +4 +4 +8 14 +7 +4 +4 +9 Domain (3rd) 15 +7 +5 +5 +9 Prayer Focus(3rd) 16 +8 +5 +5 +10 17 +8 +5 +5 +10 18 +9 +6 +6 +11 19 +9 +6 +6 +11 20 +10 +6 +6 +12 Prayer Focus(4th) Note: the priest gets multiple attacks for high BAB as normal Aura (Ex): A priest of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity's alignment (see detect evil). Spells: Priests cast divine spells from the cleric spell list (except for the restrictions listed below). Priests may not cast spells of alignments opposed to them or their deity. In order to cast a spell, a priest must have a Wisdom score equal to or greater than 10 + the spell level. Priests do not prepare spells, nor do they have a limited number of spells per day. A priest may cast any spell on their spell list as a standard action, as with normal casting. However, all priest castings make use of prayers and ritualistic symbols and gestures; therefore, all spells cast by a priest have both verbal and somantic components (although priests may make use of metamagic to remove these components; see metamagic casting below). The divine magic of priests can be fickle, as prayers can be lost, misspoke, or simply not answered. The deities, after all, are not prone to grant any mortal priest unlimited power. Thus, in order to cast a spell, the priest must make a casting check as follows: Casting Check: d20 + caster level + Wis bonus The casting check must be equal to or exceed the casting DC, which is calculated as follows: Casting DC: 1 + spell level + cumulative penalty + armor penalty If the check fails, then the spell fails to fire and the action is lost. Rolls of 1 or 20 are not special; they are calculated as normal. The cumulative penalty is one half the total spell level of all spells cast thus far this day (rounded down). For instance, one level 8 spell and two level 3 spells give a cumulative penalty of 7, while three level 2 spells give a cumulative penalty of 3. For purposes of the cumulative penalty, orisons count as level 1 (however, their spell level is calculated as 0). Cumulative penalties accumulate every time a spell is cast, even if the casting check fails. It does not increase if a spell cannot be cast in the first place (such as if under the effects of Silence) or if it is lost due to a failed Concentration check. This penalty reflects the deities' aversion to granting continued power to any mortal. The armor penalty is derived from the arcane spell failure factor of any armor worn. Each 5% spell failure increases the casting DC by 1. Thus, armor with arcane spell failure 40% increases the casting DC by 8. Cumbersome armors make it more difficult for priests to complete their rituals and concentrate on the prayers. There are a variety of ways to boost the casting check; see the rest of the priest's class features below. In addition to those bonuses, priests receive a +2 bonus when casting spells with alignments matching their deity's. Priests can access spells at the following levels: 0-1 at 1st; 2 at 3rd; 3 at 5th; 4 at 7th; 5 at 9th; 6 at 11th; 7 at 13th; 8 at 15th; and 9 at 17th. Priests may apply metamagic feats to their spells. Doing so increases the spell's level as normal; the priest must be capable of casting the spell of the resulting level. The spell is treated at its new level for purposes of casting DC and cumulative penalty. Priests may increase the spell level past 9 in this manner; however, doing so imposes an additional +4 on the DC and an additional +2 on the cumulative penalty. Domains: Beginning at level 1, a priest may choose a domain from the list provided by the deity. The priest receives the benefit listed as well as the ability to cast the spells on the domain spell list (of appropriate spell levels). In addition, the priest receives a +2 bonus to the casting check for domain spells. The priest receives a second domain at level 7 and a third at level 14. Turn or Rebuke Undead: At level 2, the priest gains the ability to turn or rebuke undead as a cleric. This choice determines whether the cleric uses hallowed or unhallowed ground for ritual casting (see below). Ritual Casting: Beginning at level 3, a priest may choose to engage in lengthy rituals to cast a spell rather than using standard prayers. The priest may add up to 1 minute per class level to the casting time in exchange for a +1 per minute circumstance bonus to the casting check. Ritual casting may only be performed on spells with a standard casting time of ten rounds or less and requires either being in a holy site (such as a temple or hallowed/unhallowed ground) or making use of holy reagents worth at least 50gp x spell level (in addition to any standard components). Prayer Focus: Priests learn to focus on several specific prayers and rituals, mastering the art of communing with the deity. At level 5, a priest may choose one spell of every spell level he can cast. The priest receives a +2 bonus on casting checks for those spells. Furthermore, the spell's level is reduced by 1 for purposes of determining cumulative penalty, to a minimum of 1. As new spell levels become available, the priest may choose a spell at that level. At level 10, a priest may choose a second spell per level. At level 15, a priest may choose a third spell per level. At level 20, a priest may choose a fourth spell per level. Priests may choose the same spell instead of a new one; doing so further increases the bonus for that spell, and the spell's level for cumulative penalty purposes is decreased further as normal. Domain spells are valid choices for these bonuses. Attuned Channeling: At level 8, the priest's bonus when casting spells with alignments matching the deity's increases to +4. Restricted Spells: The following Core cleric spells are not part of the priest's spell list: Divine Favor, Divine Power, Righteous Might. Similar non-Core spells are also restricted and will be added as needed. EX-PRIESTS Priests whose alignments fall out of an acceptable range, or who fall into extreme disfavor with their deity, lose all spells and class features, except for proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a priest of that god unless he atones (through atonement as well as achieving a valid alignment if necessary). Alternatively, a priest may seek out a different deity to worship. However, deities are normally distrusting of ex-priests of other deities; even if the priest is accepted, the casting DC for all priest spells is doubled for 2d6 months or until the priest does something that earns great favor with the new deity. Priests whose good-evil alignment changes may elect to switch their turn/rebuke undead ability. Doing so, however, requires a two-week period of concentration and retraining, during which time the priest must spend most of the day (at least 6 hours) working on the change. The priest cannot make use of this ability once the retraining period begins; furthermore, if the retraining is interrupted, the priest cannot use the ability at all and must restart the training from scratch to regain it. A priest may only make this switch if the deity's alignment also allows for it.
Exooki 06-16-06, 04:48 PM	looks good however on the domains y does he not get another at level 13? it looks like evry 6. it seems to me that would make sense. also their BaB seems a little high for someone who does not fight. although their spellcasting seems formidable may i suggest moving up their hit die? if they dont fight wiht weappons and you did not specify any armor profecicny it appears wiht only 1d4 hd they would get owned if an enamy got to them or a ranged enamy got to them. jsut sometihng i thought of. 1d6 i think would be better and if they have it please add their armor profeciency. besides that looks good
Solik 06-16-06, 05:09 PM	I wanted to split their domains instead of giving two at level one like the standard cleric. I decided to give them a third for sticking with the class long-term; 19 seemed fair, since it's the first odd-numbered level where they do not get a new spell level. Four domains seems a little much to me, but I can go for that if people think the class is too weak as-is. The BAB is the same as the Wizard, I believe; I don't think it goes any lower using standard templates :) d6 hit die may be an option if the class appears too weak. I'm not yet sure if they're too weak or too strong; I've toyed some with the spellcasting mechanism to get it to this point, so now I'm mostly waiting to see what everybody else can do with it. I don't know that divine spells have as many self-protective spells as arcane (mage armor, shield, invisibility, etc)... there's sanctuary and shield of faith, of course, but that may not be sufficient. I didn't give them any armor proficiency, again like with the wizard. Since they suffer penalties for using armor with spell failure, I can't imagine too many priests would want to use a lot of armor (except for the ones wizards tend to use). Some low-range armor might be okay at early levels (like padded), depending on the WIS bonus. But, proficiency in those armors isn't even needed, since they don't hit you with much in the way of check penalties. Thanks for the feedback :)
Solik 06-17-06, 04:48 PM	:bump: Any and all comments welcome, especially pertaining to the casting system. Perhaps the relative silence means it looks good?
Anthriel 06-17-06, 05:58 PM	Looks awesome, though the system is highly luck dependant. One thing that I don't like: The ritual casting seems to be pretty pointless. It is only useful if you want to cast additional spells per day out of combat. Or in other words, healing the group up after combat. What I would like would be to allow the Priest to cast higher level spells with Ritual Casting, that he usually could not cast yet. Thus, it could also see use for Summoning or Divination. Optimal flavor. And I don't think it is a good idea to allow Prayer Focus to stack. That would result in highly specialized Priests who only cast 2 or 3 spells over and over again. It's rather hard to assess the balance of the system, I think playtesting would be needed. The Priest will most likely be nowhere near the power of Clerics or Druids, but given that those two are greatly overpowered, that shouldn't be much of a problem.
Otto the Bugbear 06-17-06, 06:24 PM	I like it. It looks fairly well balanced. The casting system looks more like what I would have liked to see True Name magic use. I see you went in a little different direction than I did. By incorporating the caster level in the d20 check, you insure that many of the first spells he casts will easily beat the DC. Then, as the day wears on, he ends up with harder DCs. Nice job. As a side note, I didn't drop my idea. It just got put on the side so I could work on my new druid idea. I'm not going to derail your thread, but I will be adding my newest idea to that old thread tonight. Also, mine was never specified for arcanists. It was intended for spellcasters, and I never defined it as arcane only. I do think the domains are a little spread out. 19th level is, in my experience, so rarely played that it's basically a non-issue. I'd change it to 1st, 7th, 14th. I'd also change the mechanic for ritual casting. Instead of 10 minutes for a +10 circumstance bonus, just make it simpler. "The priest gains a +1 circumstance bonus for every minute he extends the casting time. He may not extend the casting time for more minutes than his class level*." *or class level x2, or x1.5, etc. I realise this eliminates greater ritual casting, but it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make on your behalf. ;) Anyway, nice job. I'm going to copy the casting system for possible implementation. Either in place of my idea, or at least for true-namers. Cheers Otto :)
Solik 06-18-06, 11:35 AM	Anthriel-- Yeah, Ritual Casting is meant for those divination, dead-raising, and Miracle-type things you may need late in the day after you've already blasted through a bunch of spells in combat situations. It's certainly not intended for use in combat. The higher level spells thing is interesting, but I'd need to be very careful with that. It could give the priest significant power if used well. Stacking Prayer Focus is, I think, rather needed for high-tier combat spells. I don't mind giving priests the option to specialize :) But yes, you're right in that it does need some playtesting to really judge, since it's so different. Otto-- The domain thing is a possibility. I put the domain at a high level slot mostly to make PrC choices a little more interesting. Without something like that, most priests would PrC after level 10 or 12 at the latest (depending on whether they wanted those abilities). Domains and such at higher levels at least rewards those who stick with the class longer-term. If I move it to 14, that would keep some in a little longer. Hmm. I could consider what the earlier poster said and go ahead and give them four domains. It may not break things much, although if they pick up a fifth domain from some PrC later on, they may not have any more domains they can take (but then, if you get a third at 14 and a fifth at 19, or thereabouts, you won't be taking many PrC levels...). The ritual casting change is interesting and certainly rewards the player for every priest level taken. I'm not sure if the flavor makes as much sense, but the flexibility is rather nice. Thanks for the comments guys :) Hopefully we can give this thing a test run at some point (no room for a priest in our current group, but I'm hoping we'll get a second group going under a different DM).
rice830 06-18-06, 06:48 PM	the cloistered cleric in the Unearthed Arcana is basically what your looking for.
INeedNoSalt 06-18-06, 07:31 PM	the cloistered cleric in the Unearthed Arcana is basically what your looking for. It's... no, not really. The Cloistered Cleric isn't anything like the Priest as presented above.
Ladran_the_Wise 06-28-06, 05:38 PM	It's... no, not really. The Cloistered Cleric isn't anything like the Priest as presented above. Yeah, the Cloistered Cleric is more of a bookworm than the Priest presented here. Think of a medieval monk from a monastery known for its library. One that actually knows how to read, mind you, but still...monastic and prone to "stay at home."
Mithaniel_Marr 06-28-06, 08:45 PM	I love the concept of this class and have often pondered and tinkered with a similar variant. However, I do have some constructive criticism that might assist you in fine-tuning this class. Spellcasting: Many other sourcebooks have presented hundreds of other spells that really expand on the cleric list, this gives your class a seemingly endless number of spells at your disposal, and with a little luck the priest can cast forever. At higher levels this could cause a problem when the party priest starts hurling out miralces. Also, with a few unlucky roles a priest could be shorted of a few spells in dire situations. This is especially dangerous because the priest has no other abilities to fall back on. How about this suggestion? It's just a slight variation to your casting mechanic, but it's much easier to understand and is much more consistant. If you insist on holding on to your huge spell selection, how about have the priest mimic the sorcerer in casting. What I mean by this is to grant the priest the spells per day progression on the sorcerer chart. This will give priests far superior casting abilities to clerics. Sorcerers easily have the highest daily alotment of spells per day, which will work well for the priest. I think you're right on the money with everything else. Except maybe priests (being a beacon of divine energy) should receive turn or rebuke undead at 1st level.
wvmmafan 07-24-06, 09:14 AM	I think I will try this class out, next time I start a new campaign.
Solik 08-07-06, 04:33 PM	I changed Ritual Casting to work as Otto suggested, and also moved the 3rd domain to level 14. Good ideas, both. Mithaniel-- That would make this class too similar to the Favored Soul (trading spells known for other weaknesses like smaller HD). This new spellcasting mechanic is sort of the whole point. Fighters and rogues have to roll to use their abilities, yet casters don't, and yet casters are already more powerful than the other classes. I don't think it's really much of a problem at high levels -- other classes can hurl out wish spells off scrolls quite easily, too (frankly, what I should do is prevent this class from using scrolls without UMD or somesuch, since it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever; not a big fan of divine wands, either). I moved Turn Undead to 2nd because I like spreading class abilities instead of front-loading it for dipping goodness. Keeps dead levels down, too.
benstundze 02-23-07, 04:44 PM	looks cool ben
monkofcuthbert4684 02-24-07, 02:06 PM	Dude, I've been looking for a class like this for a while, but exooki is right about you needing to put down armor prof. Am I right in assuming it's the same as clerics (including shields)? Also, exooki, you are sending mixed messages. You are saying it has a too low BaB (when it can't get lower), but you want to increase its HD? What's with that? Oh, and Solik, you mentioned that Con helped decrease spell failure, you mind clarifying? Finally, I want to tell the dialogue I heard in my head (not lterally, of course) when I read this class: (The adventuring team of a cleric and a priest just saved a town from multiple hurricanes, a mudslide, and an undead army, compliments of an evil wizard. They have a pile of dead bodies in town square.) Cleric: Okay, let me bring some of these guys back from the dead. (He heals 3) Commoner: What, that's it? What kind of healer are you? Cleric: Dude, maybe you shouldn't have made me cast all those miracle spells before. Commoner: Don't you have a scroll or whatever? Cleric: True ressurection scrolls cost, like, 30,000 gold each! Buy one yourself. Priest (who has no spell limit): Here, let me try. (He eventually heals them all. Mayor: Hey, thanks. Have 30,000 gp from our town cash reserves. Buy yourself a scroll. Cleric: *grumble*
Solik 03-22-07, 04:06 PM	Con(stitution) helps with Concentration checks. Added a line for armor and shield proficiencies, clarifying that they get none (not all minus tower like the cleric). This isn't a front-line combatant by any means.
Crashy75 03-22-07, 06:34 PM	This is a very interesting caster. Very interesting casting variant. Has it been playtested?
Thiez 03-22-07, 06:54 PM	I don't really like the casting mechanics. I don't see why anyone would want to play this one instead of a cleric, I think they get more spells at higher levels...
ElyasRavenwood 03-22-07, 08:44 PM	I find your priest class very interesting. I have been looking for a divine spell caster class that gives up the combat capability of the standard Cleric of the Players Hand book in exchange for improved spell casting and magic use. Your class just might fit the bill so to speak. I do have a question. Well probably several. The priest gets his divine “spells” through praying? He does not have a set of daily spells slots which he fills with spells before hand, as in the vancian system, nor does he spontaneously cast from a limited list, a certain number of times a day correct? In other words, we are looking at something different. “In order to cast a spell, the priest must make a casting check as follows: “Casting Check: d20 + caster level + Wis bonus The casting check must be equal to or exceed the casting DC, which is calculated as follows: Casting DC: 1 + spell level + cumulative penalty + armor penalty If the check fails, then the spell fails to fire and the action is lost. Rolls of 1 or 20 are not special; they are calculated as normal. The cumulative penalty is one half the total spell level of all spells cast thus far this day (rounded down)” So let me see if I understand this system. I am going to try and “play test it” A first level priest named Brother Cadfaeld needs to heal a comrade. Perhaps the barbarian got stuck with a bunch of goblin javelins or something, anyways, he is in need of healing. Down to a -1 hit points. He then prays. There are certain prayers to bring about the miracle of a “cure light wounds” spell. So the priest makes a level check which would be 1d20+ his level (1) + wisdom modifier (lets give the priest a 15 wisdom so +2). So this would be a 1d20+1+2= number between 4 and 24. I just rolled a 13 on a d20 so the level check would be 16. Right? Ok we need a casting DC. I understand it is 1+(spell level 1) + cumulative penalty+ armor penalty Now our tonsured friend the priest, Brother Cadfaeld, isn’t wearing any armor he isn’t even proficient in it, just the holy robes of his order, or denomination. So our casting dc is 1 + 0+0. I am assuming this is the first spell for the day. So the casting DC is 1. Our Tonsured friend would easily make it and thus have a cure light wounds for his wounded barbarian friend, Hubadai. I rolled a 4 on a D8 so that would be 5 hit points cured. Hubadai is now up to 4 hit points. Hubadai a 1st level barbarian (with his constitution of 15,) has a full set of 14 hit points when he is fully healed. He needs more healing. Never fear, our tonsured friend is here. He prays again, for another cure light wounds I roll a level check 1d20+1+2. I rolled a 10 on the d20 and I add 3 so 13. The DC is 1 + [cumulative penalty is one half the total spell level of all spells cast thus far this day (rounded down)] so +1 +(armor check penalty) no armor so +0 So the DC is 2 Our Tonsured friend easily makes the DC and Hubadai gets D8+1 hit points back. I rolled a 3+1=4 Hubadai the 1st level barbarian now has 8 hit points. Not wanting Hubadai to have another near death experience our tonsured friend the priest decides Hubadai is in need of more healing. So he prays a third time for another cure light wounds I rolled a level check 15+3= 18. The dc would be 2 again. The spell is cast. I rolled a 1 on a D8 So Hubadai would get 2 hit points. This would put Hubadai at 10 hit points Hubadai wants more healing. This will be the fourth spell. Our Tonsured friend Brother Cadfaeld prays again Level check 9+1+2=12 The DC is now 3. I rolled a 6 on a D8 for the cure light wounds, and Hubadai is healed for 7 hit points. Since his total is 14, He is fully healed and the 3 points are not used. Brother Cadfaeld prays for patience as he realizes his other adventuring companions, Ronin the fighter, Thalsadoom the wizard, and Silk the Rogue, also require his healing ministrations. I wont go through the rest. Do I have a grasp of the system? I have gone through four first level spells; cure light wound spells, I think with no chance of failure. I think I would only see the possibility of failure once I got to eight first level spells I think the level check would be 1d20+3 vs. a DC of 5. Then I would have to roll a 1 on a D20. So that would be a 5% chance of spell failure. I could be wrong and I may have miss-understood things. Comparatively the cleric has at first level 1+1domain spell + bonus spells. So lets say 2 first levels plus a domain spell. The Cloistered cleric has the same. The Favored soul, 3+ bonus spells, lets say 1 so 4 1st level spells a day. And the Healer has much the same. I am not trying to pop your balloon, just play with it a little, and hopefully if a flaw is found we can improve things. You’re your unlimited spell casting is interesting, however, to me it seems much more powerful then the other divine spell casters. Perhaps a “ reserve” feat might give the priest something he can do constantly, while having to keep a spell in mind. The only precedent I have seen for something similar to your spell casting system is the Sha’ir. The Sha’ir is a genie mage from the 2nd edition Al-Qadim setting. The Genie Mage has an elemental familiar called a gen. This gen goes out to the planes and finds spells for his master to cast. If the spell that the Sha’ir wants his gen to get for him is one a wizard could normally cast, the Gen departs for 1d6+1 rounds. The Gens have a 90% chance of finding the spell. Once the Gen returns from his search he shares the spell with the Shi’ar, and the Sha’ir must cast the spell within 3 turns. The Sha’ir gets the spell because it is shared with him through his link with his Gen. Once the spell is cast, the Gen can go off and look for another spell. Priestly spells required 1d6 turns. (Page 98,99 of the Al-Qadim source book) I think they reprinted the Sha’ir for 3.5 in Dragon 315, but I can’t seem to find the dragon magazine at the moment. Anyways, perhaps the Priest could “send a request” that takes a number of rounds to be fulfilled, then he has the spell in mind a few turns. It is just an idea. I have one last question. How do you think the cleric compares in relative power to the Wizard the Fighter and the Rogue? Is the cleric more powerful, about equal or less powerful then these other core bead and butter classes? I happen to think he is more powerful. I am working on some “Fixes” for the cleric, which I would be happy to share if you would like them. I hope this helps.
Valk 03-23-07, 04:00 AM	EX-PRIESTS However, deities are normally distrusting of ex-priests of other deities; even if the priest is accepted, the casting DC for all priest spells is doubled for 2d6 months or until the priest does something that earns great favor with the new deity. I'm always wary for things like doubling and halving in D&D. It's insignificant at low level and impossible at high level. I'd instead increase the DC by a set amount, +5, +10, or +20. Further, some rules to better clarify a great favor would be great. With such things as this DM's can decide and a typical DM wants everyone to have fun so he will be really easy on the ex-priest - however, bad DM's could block him from ever doing this. I suggest you give some example favors to avoid these situations. And regarding the time, I often see DM's like the idea of adversity to the players... low wealth, doing away with common so languages are an issue, persistent debuffs (such as above); it sounds really fun that a player overcomes these but until that happens his character utterly sucks and at the table that just isn't fun. 2d6 months is way too much, shorten it or even replace it with something like this. The priest takes a holy oath to uphold the deity's name and ideals, the deity gives him some rules that serve as a code of conduct (the DM should write these down for the player), for 1d4 months (or something) he will immediately die if he worships another deity or makes 2 light code of conduct infringements in one week or 1 serious one. Only true res, wish and miracle can recover his life at this point. - This does not make the player suck at the table but he does constantly have the thought of penance on his mind what I believe your goal was.
Solik 03-23-07, 11:16 AM	Has it been playtested? It was used as part of a Mystic Theurge build in one of my games. It was pretty effective. I haven't had a player run a pure Priest. I'd love to hear from any of the people from earlier in the thread who remarked about intending to use it. That is, after all, the best way to really find out the power of a class. Now our tonsured friend the priest, Brother Cadfaeld, isn’t wearing any armor he isn’t even proficient in it, just the holy robes of his order, or denomination. So our casting dc is 1 + 0+0. I am assuming this is the first spell for the day. So the casting DC is 1. The casting DC should be 2; spell level 1 + 1. The DC for an orison would be 1 in this case. The DC is 1 + [cumulative penalty is one half the total spell level of all spells cast thus far this day (rounded down)] so +1 +(armor check penalty) no armor so +0 So the DC is 2 Well, yes, but the DC shouldn't have gone up; it stayed at 2. The cumulative penalty is 0.5 (1 / 2), and that gets rounded down. Casting this spell will increase the cumulative penalty, so the next CLW will have a DC of 3. I have gone through four first level spells; cure light wound spells, I think with no chance of failure. I think I would only see the possibility of failure once I got to eight first level spells Six is enough in this case. Six gives 1 (base) + 3 (cumulative) + 1 (spell level). Also note that orisons count the same as level 1 spells for purposes of the cumulative penalty. So, you only need six total spells before the spell failure appears, and this can be any combination of level 0 and 1 spells. This assumes an 18 for Wisdom and no armor, which means your priest is very, very, fragile. That's a lot of stat points not placed into Con or Dex, and if you're going armorless, the best you can do for yourself is Shield of Faith. Basically, you're as easy to take out as a commoner. You’re your unlimited spell casting is interesting, however, to me it seems much more powerful then the other divine spell casters. This is intended. The priest is weaker than the other divine casters in every other aspect. I have one last question. How do you think the cleric compares in relative power to the Wizard the Fighter and the Rogue? The cleric is more powerful than all three of these. This is due to armor use and combat self-buffs, along with some combinations like divine metamagic and persist spell. The priest cannot achieve this level of destructive power, but he can toss around plenty of utility spells -- and that's not really a problem, because players can quickly afford wands of cure light wounds and the like for nearly unlimited healing anyways.
Solik 03-23-07, 11:23 AM	I'm always wary for things like doubling and halving in D&D. It's insignificant at low level and impossible at high level. I'd instead increase the DC by a set amount, +5, +10, or +20. I think additions have the opposite effect as multiplication; major effect at low levels, not so much at high levels. Further, some rules to better clarify a great favor would be great. I personally would only want to do this for a specific campaign, and probably even only for a specific deity. You're right about bad DMs, but bad DMs can toss aside rules they don't feel like using anyways, so why do extra work just to cater to them :p 2d6 months is way too much, shorten it or even replace it with something like this <snip> A perfectly reasonable alternative. This is another thing I think would be best tweaked to fit campaigns and deities. A deity of mercy might be quite forgiving regarding this sort of thing, while the lord of lies may well be very suspicious of a newcomer for quite awhile. The original idea for this was that this "time" would be "served" during downtime (if possible). That way, you don't just blink and cast lots of powerful spells from your new deity, but you're not gimped in long gameplay either. Something as significant as a deity change for a PC is probably something the DM would be made aware of beforehand (if there's any real communication going on), so it could be worked into a plot point in the campaign (and thus downtime room squeezed in). It helps with suspension of disbelief, and also helps prevent people from just willy-nilly switching deities when it suits them. Reasonable generic alternatives for when downtime isn't an option is a pretty good idea.
Thyrwyn 03-23-07, 12:14 PM	It's a neat idea. The spellcasting mechanic is horribly unbalancing at low levels, however. A 1st level Priest with a 16 WIS has a max Casting Check of 24 (20 + 1 + 3). This means he could conceivably cast 45 1st level spells per day: 24 - 1 (base) -1 (current spell) - 22 (half of all previous spell levels cast) 22x2 is 44 + 1 for current spell = 45 Can you take 10 on a casting check? At low levels a party with a priest would always be fully healed after every fight. The effect of low level priests on the campagin world would be enormous (5th lvl Priests could cast up to 18 remove disease/curse/blindness psells per day). Also, most Domain spell lists add nothing for Priests - you could apply the Prayer Focus ability to their Domain Spells instead. It would be a cleaner mechanic. As for non-cleric spells on Domain lists, you have the opposite 'problem'. Clerics can only cast said spells once per day, since only Domain slots can be used to prepare them. That limits their game impact - the priest has no such limitation. As written, it is a fantastic dip class: 22+ 1st level cleric spell slots per day, 1 domain power, +2 Will saves. It even offers turn/rebuke if you go another level. That is more self healing than paladins get, and no alignment/code of conduct, either.
Solik 03-23-07, 05:39 PM	Nice evaluation. No, you can't take 10. I don't think the heals are that big a deal, given the power and cost of a 50-charge wand of vigor, but that is quite a high number. Of course, averages are going to be far smaller, because you are likely to fail rather often, and those failures still contribute to the penalty. But the numbers are still excessive. I'll ponder a more effective formula. Suggestions welcome, as well. The domain advice rings true. I could make those work more like normal domain spells (1/day per level, doesn't contribute to cumulative penalty, no failure), or I could ignore the spell lists entirely and just grant the domain power.
Thyrwyn 03-24-07, 03:15 AM	Honestly, I would just apply Prayer Focus to Domain spells: it is much simpler, requires less book-keeping, and smoothly combines the two mechanics. Start it at first level. As for the formula, I suggest that you minimize the randomness of the number of spells the character is likely to cast in a day. This will make it easier for both the DM and the players to prepare for. You won't have the entire party decide to rest just because the Priest rolled badly early in the day. Here's where I would start: 1) Set a max number of spell levels per day, dependent on class lvl. Only count spells that are successfully cast against this. Make it low (how many Miracles do you want your 17th lvl Priests casting?), maybe lvl x2 + Wis Bonus 2) Fix the DC at, say 10 + (Spell lvl x 3). 3) Instead of a Caster Level check, make it a Will Save. 4) if you have insufficient spl lvls available, raise the DC to 20 + (Spell lvl x 5) + # of spell lvls already cast over the limit. (Ritual Magic makes this necessary - remove it or reduce it and you can lower the DCs). I'd run these numbers and see what you get.
ElyasRavenwood 03-24-07, 04:19 PM	Well math is my weak suite I do like your priest idea. And I understand the desire to heighten the magical capabilities in place of combat abilities. I think the cleric has too much anyways, and could use a little toning down. As interesting as the casting for the pirest is based on check made by rolling dice, I think it is a bit over powered having unlimited uses. Perhaps the model of the Warlock could be used, for an example of a character which has unlimited use of spell like abilites Here are my replacements for the cleric class. I am not trying to reinvent the wheel, just make use of some of what is already there and does not seem over powered. These classes are purposely weaker then the cleric. I am comparing them to the “fighter bard and mage” These classes are just ideas, which I realize can use lots of work. I am not sure what to do with the Domains clerics get, so I left them out for now. I hope these ideas might help in shaping your priest. Dedicated Devine Spell caster The “ Cloistered Monk”: Bab: as wizard. Saves: as wizard. Hit dice: as wizard. Skills: 2+int as wizard. Spells per day, as Wizard, uses a Prayer book like an Archivist, Must prepare spells like archivist and he selects spells from the Cleric spell list. Has Turn Undead. (replaces familiar) Spontaneous Devine spell caster The “Mystic in the Prophetic tradition”: Bab: as sorcerer. Saves: as sorcerer. Hit dice: as sorcerer. Spells per day: as sorcerer. Spells known: as sorcerer. Selects spells from Cleric spell list. . Lay on of hands as Paladin (replaces familiar). “The Parish priest”: Bab: as bard. Saves: as Bard. Hit dice: as bard. Skills: 6+-int mod as bard, Bard skill list. Spells per day: as bard. Spells Known: as bard. Selects spells from cleric spell list. Has bardic music.
Ezell Pike 03-24-07, 04:35 PM	:bump: Any and all comments welcome, especially pertaining to the casting system. Perhaps the relative silence means it looks good? I like it. I am a bit biased since I have recently been thinking of developing a class that is very similar.:D I would not put a cap on the number of spells per day. I may however limit the amount by which any one individual would benefit from healing. ( especially when they do not worship the same deity)
monkofcuthbert4684 03-24-07, 08:34 PM	Nice evaluation. No, you can't take 10. Isn't there a feat in the Complete Arcane that lets you (take ten), or would this be an exception?
monkofcuthbert4684 04-06-07, 12:58 PM	:waits:
cruxvader 04-11-07, 03:20 AM	There is no singer of the wild class let's make one of those
DungeonMaestro4203 04-30-07, 10:44 AM	looks great. I can see that this class more closely follows the wizard/sorcerer than most other divine classes. HD looks good, since the priest is obviously not a combat class. though you may want to do away with the casting that depends on luck. BaB looks pretty good, although i think it should more closely match the rogues to balance the character's odd casting system. the domains are pretty whacked in my opinion. if you were to give this class a reward for sticking with the class, i suggest allowing some kind of limited bonus feats. and thats all i have for now, cuz i have short term memory and cant remember what else i was gonna say lol :looloo: great idea though! -BILL
JancariusSeiryujinn 10-15-07, 05:38 PM	Priest Class Skills: Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (Religion, History, Planes, Nature), Perform (Oratory)(Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int) Skill points: 2+Int Hit die: d4 Level BAB Fort Ref Will Class Feature 1 0 0 0 2 Turn or Rebuke Undead, spellcasting 2 1 0 0 3 - 3 1 1 1 3 Vitalic Touch, Divine Grace 4 2 1 1 4 - 5 2 1 1 4 Divine Ray(2d6) 1/day 6 3 2 2 5 - 7 3 2 2 5 Divine Ray(3d6) 8 4 2 2 6 - 9 4 3 3 6 Divine Ray (4d6) 10 5 3 3 7 Divine Ray 2/day 11 5 3 3 7 Healer’s Reach, Divine Ray (5d6) 12 6 4 4 8 - 13 6 4 4 8 Divine Ray (6d6) 14 7 4 4 9 - 15 7 5 5 9 Divine Ray 3/day, Divine Ray (7d6) 16 8 5 5 10 - 17 8 5 5 10 Divine Ray (8d6) 18 9 6 6 11 - 19 9 6 6 11 Divine Ray (9d6) 20 10 6 6 12 Divine Ray 4/day Turn or Rebuke Undead(Su): As per a cleric of the character’s priest level. If a character has levels in another class which grant him turning, these stack with the other classes for determining the effectiveness of turning. Spellcasting: A priest is more fragile than a cleric, but have a number of advantages over clerics in the area of Spellcasting. A priest knows all spells on the main cleric spell list. Each day, they choose a limited number of these spells to prepare. From this list of prepared spells, they may then choose to cast any of them spontaneously, up to the limit of their number of spells per level per day. The DCs and the power of the spells a Priest can cast is determined by their Wisdom score. The number of bonus spells per day is determined by their Charisma score. To cast a Priest spell, a priest must have a minimum Wisdom equal to 10+the level of the spell to be cast. Vitalic Touch(Su): As a dragon Shaman Divine Grace(Su): A priest gains his Charisma modifier on all his saving throws. Divine Ray(Su): Once per day at 5th level, and an additional time per day every 5 levels after that, a priest may make a ranged touch attack against a target within 30 feet as a swift action. If the character is of an alignment opposing the religion of the priest, that character suffers 1d6+Charisma modifier points of damage. This damage increases by 1d6 every 2 levels thereafter. If the target shares an alignment component with the diety of the priest, they take half damage. IE: A LN priest targets a LE character. The LE character takes ½ damage from the ray. It should be noted that as the Priest class was designed with Eberron in mind, an evil Priest of the Silver Flame still affects evil/chaotic targets with the ray, despite his own alignment. Neutral gods may affect those on either side of their axis. For example, a LN god’s Priest could divine ray could affect CG, CN, and CE targets. A TN god could affect any targets except TN ones, and a NG target could affect LN, CN, LE, NE, and CE. Healer’s Reach(Su): For purposes of spells of the healing subschool with the cure descriptor (in other words, those that could be spontaneously cast by a cleric), the range of these spells is extended to Close (25+5/2 levels). A similar attempt at the concept. The current playtest (3 games so far) has found that in Expedition to Ravenloft, with the Lightbringer alt class feature for clerics and quickened turning that my version was overpowered as hell. I am actually stripping out hte Vitalic Touch and not allowing 'cleric' alternate class features.