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| Meyer_William08-07-07, 01:28 AM | The Cleric Revisited The very least that anyone can say concerning the cleric class is that it is among the most contentious topics on these forums. It seems as though not a day goes by without a new thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=900345) discussing/referencing the cleric, and today it is my turn. I created this cleric variant because of my own feelings toward the class, as well as those of several of my more experienced players. We realized that we wanted something more after those enticing first five of six levels of cleric, afterwhich, most players Prc out of this class. While there were several interesting variants on the forums already, none of them suited our tastes. After a lot of work and much discussion and playtesting (on both sides of the DM screen), below is the latest version of our cleric. So what makes this cleric variant different? I'm glad you asked: No dead levels: It's an improvement over the normal cleric, but as far as cleric variants go, this is nothing special. Don't worry, we're just getting warmed up. A boost where it counts: Early on, things aren't much different; you get some minor skill boosts (knowledges) and a good boost to saves (saves). DMM and the other core divine feats are now class features, and in addition to this, clerics gain some defensive bonuses. An overhaul where it's needed: If you only looked at levels 9 and above, you might not immediately realize you were looking at a cleric variant; since the common consensus is that clerics need the most help at higher levels, it is easy to understand why this was intentional. The main change here was substituting special abilities for dead levels. My hope in sharing our cleric here is to improve it further, and to provide a thus far successful variant for mass consumption. We would appreciate any comments or constructive criticism, but we'd like to limit the conversation to this variant. Please restrain any impulse to argue whether or not the cleric really is underpowered or to post about some other cleric variant (unless there is a good reason to do so). So, without any further ado, I would like to present The Cleric Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1st +1 +2 +0 +2 Spellcasting, Turn Undead 2nd +2 +3 +0 +3 Weapon Focus in deity's weapon 3rd +3 +3 +1 +3 Skill focus Knowledge (religion), Add Wis to Ref saves. 4th +4 +4 +1 +4 Extra Turning 5th +5 +4 +1 +4 Greater Healing (+2 hp per healing spell) 6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +5 Bonus divine feat 7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +5 Weapon Specialization in Deity's weapon 8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +6 Extra Domain 9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +6 Improved Toughness 10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +7 Evasion 11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +7 Improved Greater Healing (+wis bonus * spell level) 12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +8 Extra Domain 13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +8 Quicken spell 1/day 14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +9 Special ability (from rogue list) 15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +9 Persist spell 1/day 16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +10 Special ability 17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Quicken spell 2/day 18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 Persist spell 2/day 19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Special Ability 20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Miracle 1/day Alignment: Any. Hit Dice: d10. Class Skills The cleric’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int). A Cleric can pick any 2 skills to add to the skills. This represents the clerics extra scholarly studies Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) Χ 4 Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier Except as noted, the cleric is identical to the cleric in the PHB. Weapon Focus: The cleric gains weapon focus in the weapon associated with his deity. If the cleric worships domains instead of a deity, use the rules for spiritual weapon. Skill Focus (religion): As a cleric, the character begins to see the meaning behind the tenets of religion. As such, he gets to add his wisdom bonus to any knowledge religion checks. Add Wisdom to Reflex Saves: At third level, the power of the deity further protects the cleric, similar to a guardian angel. This is reflected in the ability to react quickly to unforseen circumstances. A cleric of at least level 3 gets to add his Wisdom bonus to Reflex saves. Extra Turning: A cleric gains the feat "Extra Turning" as a bonus feat. This reflects the growing power that the Deity has invested in the cleric. Greater Healing: The link between the cleric and the deity strengthens, making his healing spells more powerful. Note, this does not affect inflict spells. Bonus Divine Feat: The cleric begins to see new ways that he can use his ability to channel positive/negative energy. Weapon Specialization: The cleric become more of an avatar of his deity. Whenever he uses a weapon associated with the deity, he is treated as having weapon specialization. Extra Domain: At 8th level and 12th level, the cleric's relationship with his deity improves as he more fully understands the deity. He gains one domain that the Deity has access to. Improved Toughness The cleric is granted improved toughness, as divine power courses through his veins. Evasion: At level 10, the cleric is further protected by his Deity. He is treated as having evasion (per rogue). Improved Greater Healing. At level 11, the cleric is capable to mini-miracles of healing, far exceeding those of other classes. He is able to add his wisdom bonus times the spell level to determine the extra amount of healing. O level spells count as 1/2 for this ability. Note: this does not affect inflict spells. Quicken Spell. A spark of divinity is resident in the cleric, allowing him to prepare one spell quickened per day. Note, this follows all rules for quickening, so any level adjustment must still be paid. Special Ability A cleric gets to choose one ability from the rogue special ability list that he qualifies for. This represents the increased spark of divinity. Persist Spell. A spark of divinity is resident in the cleric, allowing him to prepare one spell persisted per day. Note, this follows all rules for quickening, so any level adjustment must still be paid. Miracle 1/day. Due to the length of time the cleric has had in service of his deity, he is able to ask for a miracle 1/day. This means that when the cleric prepares spells, he gets one additional spell per day dedicated to miracle. It follows all normal rules for miracle however. |
| andinel08-07-07, 02:30 AM | Wow...you actually managed to make one of the strongest classes in the game stronger. The reason casters like the cleric have dead levels in the first place is because their spells cover everything else. A cleric with all of these features is just going to be even better than a normal cleric...which is hard to do. Most posters that I know of (myself included) consider the cleric and the druid the two most powerful classes in core, if not the whole game. Comments on the class: • Why give full BAB? You make the paladin worthless this way, as the cleric functions as a full BAB, full casting class. No class so far that I have seen has both. • Quicken Spell, Persistent Spell, and DMM are some of the most powerful feats in the game. Why give them as class features? • Miracle 1/day at level 20 is completely unbalanced. This gives clerics way too much power, if they don't already get it from their spells. • Not all clerics specialize in healing. Why give Greater healing to clerics who want to be melee focused rather than healing focused? • A d10 hit die also adds a lot of melee capability to the class...and moves the paladin one step closer to being totally worthless (if it isn't already. I prefer OW4's paladin myself to the core paladin, though). |
| Leress08-07-07, 05:01 AM | 1. Cleric don't have dead levels- They get spells that is a class feature/ability (a very versatile one I may add) 2. Why give this class Good BAB? This class already has full casting 3. You also gave this class two extra domains making the total four. Why do this since it greatly increase the spells that the class can cast. 4. Extra Turning doesn't really help this class since it turning ability still doesn't keep up with monster of appropriate CR 5. Why has the class been giving Evasion and the Rogue Special abilities. This class really doesn't lend it self to be an agile class, so these abilities seem out of place. 6. Since it is not indicated if the Spells/day are Supernatural or Spell-like there is still, a problem. If a clear is allow these meta-magics adding them to the class list doesn't really do anything since they are able to do them anyway and more times than what these per day abilities give. Miracle 1/day is very trivial at that level since you are already and are casting it many times per day anyway. 7. An overhaul where it's needed: If you only looked at levels 9 and above, you might not immediately realize you were looking at a cleric variant; since the common consensus is that clerics need the most help at higher levels, it is easy to understand why this was intentional. The main change here was substituting special abilities for dead levels The common consensus on these boards is that the cleric is one of the most powerful class If players want to prestige out, then they will do it. One should not write a class to entice players to stay in for 20 levels it should written to be able to handle CR appropriate encounters for it level. |
| Cthulhu_Dreams08-07-07, 05:03 AM | I'm honestly not sure if you are trolling. You've taken the cleric, which is already probably the second strongest all around class in the game, and then made it AWESOMETASTIC. Why would you play anything else in a game where you can play this? It's like the swiss army knife of awesome. Lets look at it by the numbers Best BAB - Actually not that great because hitting things in melee isn't such a great option compared to casting spells, but if I can do both, it saves me a buff spell. Second best saves.. but wait, I get to add my Wis to Ref so I in fact have awesome saves. Good hitpoints - d10, quite strong. 4 skillpoints per level, and I totally get Use Magical Device as a class skill, which is the best skill in the game. I also get the equivalent of, what, 14? bonus feats over the course of the class, full divine spell casting (which is almost good enough to be a class all of it's own mind) and some random other goodness. Including turn undead so I can power persistent buff spells to make myself a stomping machine. Seriously, the standard cleric is already *overpowered.* This class is just plain old better than fighters, paladins and probably rangers, and thats if all it ever does be a fighter than can also heal. Seriously, if I whack the trickery domain and nature domain in there, I can get all his skills, and wear heavy armour, and have full divine spellcasting. And win the game. ' If you blow the rest of the party off and spend all that spell power on making yourself godlike, cleric archer concepts already outclass any appropriately CRed challenge, and this just makes it awesome. Send the fighter home ma, the cleric is here! Ugh? |
| Meyer_William08-07-07, 09:48 AM | Wow...you actually managed to make one of the strongest classes in the game stronger. The reason casters like the cleric have dead levels in the first place is because their spells cover everything else. A cleric with all of these features is just going to be even better than a normal cleric...which is hard to do. Most posters that I know of (myself included) consider the cleric and the druid the two most powerful classes in core, if not the whole game. Comments on the class: Why give full BAB? You make the paladin worthless this way, as the cleric functions as a full BAB, full casting class. No class so far that I have seen has both. Quicken Spell, Persistent Spell, and DMM are some of the most powerful feats in the game. Why give them as class features? Miracle 1/day at level 20 is completely unbalanced. This gives clerics way too much power, if they don't already get it from their spells. Not all clerics specialize in healing. Why give Greater healing to clerics who want to be melee focused rather than healing focused? A d10 hit die also adds a lot of melee capability to the class...and moves the paladin one step closer to being totally worthless (if it isn't already. I prefer OW4's paladin myself to the core paladin, though). Seriously, how is it stronger than it already is? 1+5) Anytime after 7th level, the cleric is casting Divine Power (is that the right one?) to already give itself full bab, d10 (technically, it only gives itself +1 hp/lvl -- but that is statistically the same as d10s) AND +6 str enhancement -- now, the cleric has to choose to cast the spell to only get a +6 str enhancement ... 2) Notice, those abilities are only usable X/day times ... I am not seeing any spells that horribly unbalance the game like that -- also, (maybe I should have explained it a bit better) these are not the sudden feats, but the traditional feats, which means you have the spell level adjustment ... 3) The cleric can already cast miracle at that level, so I not not seeing it as broken -- plus, miracle already has balancing points inside itself. 4) All good .. and most neutral clerics can spontaneously cast healing ... giving them an edge, so that they don't have to waste multiple spells healing the party -- is a good thing. This frees them up to do what they want to do better/easier ... basically, it unchains them from the healbot mentality. And honestly, how many times does a cleric heal in combat? Out of combat healing costs 15 gp for 11 hps (lesser vigor from a wand) ... at the level that this cleric variant gets this ability -- that amount of gold is what is lost in the cushions of the couch ... Come on now ... any player wants to PrC out of cleric as soon as possible, as there is nothing that it gives you (with the exception of a couple domains whose power scales -- and turn undead, which is both campaign specific, and increased by multiple PrCs). |
| Meyer_William08-07-07, 09:59 AM | 1. Cleric don't have dead levels- They get spells that is a class feature/ability (a very versatile one I may add) Look at the cleric class ... they get no abilities after 1st level ... except for increased spellcasting and turn undead -- which several PrCs give it ... when there is no reason to stay in the class, then it has dead levels ... in fact, here is a link to a WOTC article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a)spelling that out. 2. Why give this class Good BAB? This class already has full casting Why not? If it plans on entering melee, it will cast divine power. If it doesn't plan on attacking -- what does the BAB give it? This is to help entice people to not PrC out of Cleric, as I don't know of any full casting/bab class out there for clerics. 3. You also gave this class two extra domains making the total four. Why do this since it greatly increase the spells that the class can cast. It doesn't greatly increase the spells the class can cast ... it adds a max of 2 spells available to the class ... since it only has 1 domain slot, then the class can (usually) only prepare one of 4 spells ... cleric PrCs already grant this (or more) 4. Extra Turning doesn't really help this class since it turning ability still doesn't keep up with monster of appropriate CR Let me understand ... I didn't make this ability powerful enough? 5. Why has the class been giving Evasion and the Rogue Special abilities. This class really doesn't lend it self to be an agile class, so these abilities seem out of place. The class gets evasion, as it is a nice feature to have ... and works well with the ability to add Wis to its Ref save. This is a trade-off, since evasion only works in light armor, this gives the cleric an incentive to not be a heavy armored character. Especially since Divine Oracle (I think that is correct) gives a version of Evasion that works in any type of armor. 6. Since it is not indicated if the Spells/day are Supernatural or Spell-like there is still, a problem. If a clear is allow these meta-magics adding them to the class list doesn't really do anything since they are able to do them anyway and more times than what these per day abilities give. Miracle 1/day is very trivial at that level since you are already and are casting it many times per day anyway. Thanks, I will modify it to correct this issue. 7. The common consensus on these boards is that the cleric is one of the most powerful class If players want to prestige out, then they will do it. One should not write a class to entice players to stay in for 20 levels it should written to be able to handle CR appropriate encounters for it level. I don't get it ... How is cleric is uber ... when people want to PrC out, as they get all the abilities of the class and more if they do so? |
| Meyer_William08-07-07, 10:08 AM | Why would you play anything else in a game where you can play this? It's like the swiss army knife of awesome. Paladins have better saves, a mount, and some not-so-bad spells. Barbarians get rage/pounce (post-complete champions) = uber-charger Fighters get tons of feats Bards ... can heal AND buff the rest of the party better than this character Wizards ... can cast arcane spells ... etc Warblades get lots of combat choices (and can have better saves than this character) etc -- there are reason ... But I like your comparison to a swiss army knife ... I would rather have a bowie knife than the knife in the swiss army knife, would rather have industry-level scissors than the scissors in the knife, etc ... it can do lots of things, but ... it is not the best at any of them (well, except for turn-undead (radiant servant is better) and casting cleric spells (any cleric+prc is equal or better)) I also get the equivalent of, what, 14? bonus feats over the course of the class, full divine spell casting (which is almost good enough to be a class all of it's own mind) and some random other goodness. Including turn undead so I can power persistent buff spells to make myself a stomping machine. But if you are *already* capable of doing this (nightsticks + undeath domain + holy item from MIC) ... then please explain how making this easier for a less experienced player ... makes this overpowered? Seriously, the standard cleric is already *overpowered.* This class is just plain old better than fighters, paladins and probably rangers, and thats if all it ever does be a fighter than can also heal. Seriously, if I whack the trickery domain and nature domain in there, I can get all his skills, and wear heavy armour, and have full divine spellcasting. And win the game. ' If you blow the rest of the party off and spend all that spell power on making yourself godlike, cleric archer concepts already outclass any appropriately CRed challenge, and this just makes it awesome. Send the fighter home ma, the cleric is here! You might fight better than the fighter -- with the addition of your spells to offset his feats ... you clearly fight better than the warrior ... But I am not following you .. at the beginning of the post, you posit that noone would play anything but this class, and at the end, you advance the postition that you will out-class the rest of the part? |
| radkins08-07-07, 10:14 AM | Any class that gets full BAB and full 9th lvl casting is overpowered period. That doesn't take into account all the other ridiculous stuff added here. The Free persist spells makes this even more unbalanced. If you think that clerics lose steam at higher levels, you obviously have not played one or had one in your party or the people playing the clerics have played them badly. They can pretty much take over the star role of the party starting at mid levels. Its already one of the core big 4, this would easily let them stand alone as the big 1. |
| Meyer_William08-07-07, 10:25 AM | Any class that gets full BAB and full 9th lvl casting is overpowered period. So, giving this variant less than what it gets ANYWAY by spending a 4th level slot (divine power) ... makes it overpowered? That doesn't take into account all the other ridiculous stuff added here. The Free persist spells makes this even more unbalanced. Not free, the cleric still needs to prepare/cast it ... which means that they can persist a 1st level spell at that level .... Not seeing the hugely overpowering aspect of things ... Can you provide an example please? If you think that clerics lose steam at higher levels, you obviously have not played one or had one in your party or the people playing the clerics have played them badly. They can pretty much take over the star role of the party starting at mid levels. Its already one of the core big 4, this would easily let them stand alone as the big 1. I am not saying that they lose steam ... I am saying they provide no reason for a player to stay in the class when they get their class abilities AND MORE by PrCing out at first chance ... this is what I am trying to fix ... Can you give me a single reason (i.e. partial/complete build) which demonstrates WHY I would not want to PrC out of cleric as fast as possible? |
| radkins08-07-07, 11:09 AM | 1. Divine Power only last a certain number of rounds depending on the levle of the cleric. How does effectively giving the cleric 24 hours of divine power balance to the normal cleric at most having 10 or 15 minutes worth of that full BAB. 2. Normally to get spells persisted a cleric has to burn feats, gear, and a ton of turn attempts to DMM persist spells. 3. Reasons to not PrC: 1)Not every DM allows every single book or every single PrC to be allowed in any given game. Many people play core only. 2)D&D is a roleplaying game and many of the cleric PrCs have roleplaying requirements and the PrCs don't always fit into the theme of the character. 3) I've seen many people play straight 20 clerics. In your group has noone ever done that? I'm done arguing. If you haven't noticed, there hasn't been a single post in this thread praising your cleric "fix." That might tell you something. Not every player wants to be the uber character in party and outshine the rest of the group. This character would do that. |
| Taeldrin Laesrash08-07-07, 11:40 AM | The class gets evasion, as it is a nice feature to have ... and works well with the ability to add Wis to its Ref save. This is a trade-off, since evasion only works in light armor, this gives the cleric an incentive to not be a heavy armored character. Especially since Divine Oracle (I think that is correct) gives a version of Evasion that works in any type of armor. They get an ability (abilities) because it is nice to have? Nononononono. You do not give a class ability for no reason. It's worse than multiclassing for no reason. It has nothing to do with the concept of a servent of god. When this happens, its not a class, it's just unbalancing the game to fufill your fantasies of power. Using the Divine Oracle as an example is bad; its evasion ability matches the theme of the class, while you've got no good reason to give it. And don't bring up armor. There are plenty of reasons not to wear heavy armor: Encumberence, reduced speed, massive armor check penalties, and some other things. |
| Caelic08-07-07, 11:53 AM | I prefer to regard this post as a brilliant example of ironic humor and satire. Bravo, Mister William! |
| Hsien08-07-07, 12:02 PM | I prefer to regard this post as a brilliant example of ironic humor and satire. Bravo, Mister William! Second! "A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices." ~William James |
| Reyemile08-07-07, 12:12 PM | Second! "A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices." ~William James Thirded. Plus, everyone who didn't catch on at first glance is a poopyhead :D |
| Argaud08-07-07, 12:12 PM | I prefer to regard this post as a brilliant example of ironic humor and satire. Bravo, Mister William! Fourthed (is that even a word?) Notice Meyer only gave the cleric the abilities that the cleric already has all the time according to the CO boards posters, hence, the cleric receives no increase in power at all. And yet, no dead levels! Outstanding! |
| RobbyPants08-07-07, 12:18 PM | The problem isn't that the cleric has dead levels, but rather, that so many PrCs exist with full casting and special abilities. Players are left with little incentive to stay the course with cleric when they can multiclass and gain everything and lose nothing. I agree that the core cleric's dead levels are amply compensated by his caster-level and spells-per-day increase. |
| Khaim08-07-07, 12:29 PM | You forgot to give him martial maneuvers. He should probably have 1 per level, to represent his diety making him kickass. |
| Spikes01k08-07-07, 12:58 PM | Hey you forgot to give them all good saves and a Wisdom bonus to all you saves, similar to a paladin, as well as changing their turning ability to be run of wisdom. |
| OneWinged4ngel08-07-07, 01:09 PM | Look at the cleric class ... they get no abilities after 1st level ... except for increased spellcasting and turn undead -- which several PrCs give it ... when there is no reason to stay in the class, then it has dead levels ... in fact, here is a link to a WOTC article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a)spelling that out. Which doesn't actually change the fact that in *reality* spell levels are anything but dead levels. In fact, they provide more abilities than a level in almost any nonspellcasting class. The fact that prestige classes add even more onto this doesn't mean they're balanced. It means *they're* overpowered too. Also, it's worth noting that that article received some pretty horrible feedback throughout the boards here. Heh. Just cuz WotC wrote it doesn't mean it's well written (Heck, you wanna see some TERRIBLE WotC articles? Check out Clockwork Wonders. I dare you to try and use the Spell Clock. You can't, of course, since half of the information you need to actually use it is missing despite a 2 page writeup of a single crappy item, so I can't lose on the dare ;)) The thing is, not only are spell levels not dead levels, but they are in fact such full levels that if you were to lose *one* caster level, many people would not take a prestige class (for optimization purposes) unless it granted some really extraordinary abilities to make up for all the stuff you lost. That's how highly spellcasting is weighted in D&D. |
| zorgling2508-07-07, 01:13 PM | Wait...I'm confused. You said you added these abilities to the cleric so that people would want to stay in the class after level 5? Why didn't you do this kind of fix for the Fighter? Everybody jumps out of there at level TWO! And if you added this much stuff to the Fighter, I doubt it would be as broken! What kind of players have you played with? I've got a suggestion for you. Next game you run, run 4 players playing only DMM Clerics (normal, not your variant). Now, after they all reach level 7, TELL me that clerics aren't overpowered without you throwing monsters 5-6 CRs above their level! I have done this (though sort of as a joke), and the players can handle enemies that high above their level. So clerics have dead levels after 1st? Guess what? SO DOES EVERY OTHER FULL CASTER! And yet, its still well-acknowledged that in a straight up fight any one of the full casters at level 20 will beat a non-caster of similar level. You say PrCing out is a problem? Let me ask you an honest question. Have you EVER had a player (other than their first campaign ever) take 20 levels in a base class? If you read the DMG, you'll notice that it says that PrCs are generally SUPPOSED to be stronger than the base classes. People don't just PrC out of Cleric at level 5. Level 5 is where you're SUPPOSED to start getting PrCs for all classes, since most of them are written so that level 5 or 6 characters can start qualifying. "Any one wants to PrC out of Cleric as soon as possible?" Anyone wants to PrC out of ANYTHING as soon as possible! |
| Meyer_William08-07-07, 01:15 PM | 1. Divine Power only last a certain number of rounds depending on the levle of the cleric. How does effectively giving the cleric 24 hours of divine power balance to the normal cleric at most having 10 or 15 minutes worth of that full BAB. Divine power also gives you +6 enhancement bonus to strength ... so this is not a fair comparison. Honestly, out-side of combat, what does BAB matter? Inside combat, how many minutes more than 10-15 minutes are characters in combat each day? 2. Normally to get spells persisted a cleric has to burn feats, gear, and a ton of turn attempts to DMM persist spells. So? If the character can already do that then this ability won't benefit them much -- if they can't, then they need to spend the normal higher spell slot -- so can you tell me of a nice spell that is worth persisting (at cost)? 3. Reasons to not PrC: 1)Not every DM allows every single book or every single PrC to be allowed in any given game. Many people play core only. 2)D&D is a roleplaying game and many of the cleric PrCs have roleplaying requirements and the PrCs don't always fit into the theme of the character. 3) I've seen many people play straight 20 clerics. In your group has noone ever done that? 1) Enough DMs allow complete books (divine for instance) that this is not a really legitimate argument. 2) Using roleplaying to justify an imbalance in the class power level, or as a way to reign in power, is not mechanically valid. 3) No, I haven't ... but then again, I rarely get up to level 20. There is just too much power in PrCing away from the base class -- especially since there is nothing that you lose. I'm done arguing. If you haven't noticed, there hasn't been a single post in this thread praising your cleric "fix." That might tell you something. Not every player wants to be the uber character in party and outshine the rest of the group. This character would do that. Honestly, this thread hasn't been up long enough for people to fully grasp the impact of this character ... alternately no one has had a single constructive criticism to have about this (correction, the person who asked me to specify how the quicken/etc worked) ... the power imbalance people say, they haven't a single supported comment as to why it doesn't work. Additionally, some people are thinking that the powers granted are too powerful, yet, others think the same powers are underpowered ... so you can see how confusing it is for me. |
| Meyer_William08-07-07, 01:17 PM | They get an ability (abilities) because it is nice to have? Nononononono. You do not give a class ability for no reason. It's worse than multiclassing for no reason. It has nothing to do with the concept of a servent of god. When this happens, its not a class, it's just unbalancing the game to fufill your fantasies of power. Using the Divine Oracle as an example is bad; its evasion ability matches the theme of the class, while you've got no good reason to give it. And don't bring up armor. There are plenty of reasons not to wear heavy armor: Encumberence, reduced speed, massive armor check penalties, and some other things. Good point ... I will be adding flavor text as to WHY they get these abilities ... that should make things better. re: armor ... when you think of a cleric build -- do you think plate mail -- or chain shirt? If the answer is "I never see a chain shirt cleric" ... then there is a problem. |
| Meyer_William08-07-07, 01:22 PM | The problem isn't that the cleric has dead levels, but rather, that so many PrCs exist with full casting and special abilities. Players are left with little incentive to stay the course with cleric when they can multiclass and gain everything and lose nothing. I agree that the core cleric's dead levels are amply compensated by his caster-level and spells-per-day increase. True ... but as long as there is no reason to stay in the cleric class, then it is a poorly written class. There should be a reason to stay in a class to level 20. As written, there is no reason to stay in the class ... And don't get me started in how poor the cleric's class skills are: With a 2 skillpoints/level + int, you need spellcraft/knowledge religion/concentration -- which means human or int 12 to get JUST those skills ... this is why they need more skill points ... |
| Meyer_William08-07-07, 01:23 PM | You forgot to give him martial maneuvers. He should probably have 1 per level, to represent his diety making him kickass. That would be silly and has nothing to do with either the cleric or a cleric PrC. That would require coming up with a recovery method -- and that is too much work for no pay-off. |
| Meyer_William08-07-07, 01:25 PM | Hey you forgot to give them all good saves and a Wisdom bonus to all you saves, similar to a paladin, as well as changing their turning ability to be run of wisdom. Why? Giving them their wis bonus to ref saves, helps their weaker saves, they already are going to be having a good Wis (will) , and probably an ok Con (fort) score ... Running turning off their wisdom would help eliminate MAD, but that would be overkill ... plus against the feel of turning (the ability for a mortal to channel the force of presence of their deity) |
| Meyer_William08-07-07, 01:28 PM | Which doesn't actually change the fact that in *reality* spell levels are anything but dead levels. In fact, they provide more abilities than a level in almost any nonspellcasting class. The fact that prestige classes add even more onto this doesn't mean they're balanced. It means *they're* overpowered too. Also, it's worth noting that that article received some pretty horrible feedback throughout the boards here. Heh. Just cuz WotC wrote it doesn't mean it's well written. The thing is, not only are spell levels not dead levels, but they are in fact such full levels that if you were to lose *one* caster level, many people would not take a prestige class (for optimization purposes) unless it granted some really extraordinary abilities to make up for all the stuff you lost. That's how highly spellcasting is weighted in D&D. Rewriting the cleric vs rewriting all PrCs past-present-future ... one of the two is a lot easier than the other ... Seriously though ... as written ... would having this base class exist -- make you not want to PrC? Would it take more than a single thought to decide? |
| zephyrTR08-07-07, 01:33 PM | i play core clasess only, so the casters are crazy overpowered. I've been vamping up the other classes to compensate, my main change giving the monk the ability to sap castings from casters via their supernatural strikes. Though it's fun to just give classes stuff you should only do it for a very short list of reasons: 1) because they pale in comparison to other classes (fighter, monk) 2) because otherwise they're too boring (barb falls in this category) 3) to add extra flavor (these should be minimal, situational changes) Just because "they should" or "it sounds cool" is not a good reason to give a class more, and especially if they're Cleric, Druid or Wizard, you need to, in response to that, take something away. In fact, in examples 2 and 3 above, you still need to take something away before you give back to the class. I granted barbs monster feats to make combat more interesting, but they have to give up uncanny dodge and trapsense to do so. Your main concern for the cleric was its 'dead levels' but as people have pointed out, a caster never has dead levels. They always get either more castings OR more castings and new spells every level. Could you flesh out more reasons why the cleric requires more to be what it should be? additionally, if you're doing this because PrCs are too good, then you're missing the point of PrCs. They're PRESTIGIOUS. Don't make them commonplace, just like you don't have (as someone on this board put it) +7 Vorpal Blades at walmart. |
| Meyer_William08-07-07, 01:39 PM | What kind of players have you played with? I've got a suggestion for you. Next game you run, run 4 players playing only DMM Clerics (normal, not your variant). Now, after they all reach level 7, TELL me that clerics aren't overpowered without you throwing monsters 5-6 CRs above their level! I have done this (though sort of as a joke), and the players can handle enemies that high above their level. What kind of build would that be? Human: undeath (extra turning)/planning (extend spell) -- persist spell -- DMM persist -- so at first level, they have spent all feats/domain -- and what spell are they going to persist? (at most 2) 3rd level, they get a feat ... and 2nd level spells ... probably also have the holy reliquary (MIC) ... what spell(s) are they going to persist? 5th level, what spells are they going to persist? (at most 2) 7th level, I assume they have divine power up ... what other spell makes them able to take out enemies 5-6 levels above them? But ... assuming they have divine power up at all times -- how is that any different than what I posted? So clerics have dead levels after 1st? Guess what? SO DOES EVERY OTHER FULL CASTER! And yet, its still well-acknowledged that in a straight up fight any one of the full casters at level 20 will beat a non-caster of similar level. You say PrCing out is a problem? Let me ask you an honest question. Have you EVER had a player (other than their first campaign ever) take 20 levels in a base class? I haven't had a player take 20 levels in a base class, but I have been in groups where players went from level 1 to 13 in a base class ... then the characters were retired ... I assume that is close enough? As far as it being well-acknowledged ... can you point me to a thread with the specifics (build vs build) ... as I have read people talk about things ... but never saw WHY it is true ... If you read the DMG, you'll notice that it says that PrCs are generally SUPPOSED to be stronger than the base classes. People don't just PrC out of Cleric at level 5. Level 5 is where you're SUPPOSED to start getting PrCs for all classes, since most of them are written so that level 5 or 6 characters can start qualifying. "Any one wants to PrC out of Cleric as soon as possible?" Anyone wants to PrC out of ANYTHING as soon as possible! I must have missed that ... I did read where PrCs are supposed to be better in niche things than generic base classes ... but not better in every aspect ... |
| Meyer_William08-07-07, 01:44 PM | i play core classes only, so the casters are crazy overpowered. I've been vamping up the other classes to compensate, my main change giving the monk the ability to sap castings from casters via their supernatural strikes. :confused: You play Core classes ... but change them? Isn't that ... non-core? Why play non-core+houserule, when you can play straight DnD (core+completes/other splat books) Though it's fun to just give classes stuff you should only do it for a very short list of reasons: 1) because they pale in comparison to other classes (fighter, monk) 2) because otherwise they're too boring (barb falls in this category) 3) to add extra flavor (these should be minimal, situational changes) Just because "they should" or "it sounds cool" is not a good reason to give a class more, and especially if they're Cleric, Druid or Wizard, you need to, in response to that, take something away. In fact, in examples 2 and 3 above, you still need to take something away before you give back to the class. I granted barbs monster feats to make combat more interesting, but they have to give up uncanny dodge and trapsense to do so. Your main concern for the cleric was its 'dead levels' but as people have pointed out, a caster never has dead levels. They always get either more castings OR more castings and new spells every level. Could you flesh out more reasons why the cleric requires more to be what it should be? additionally, if you're doing this because PrCs are too good, then you're missing the point of PrCs. They're PRESTIGIOUS. Don't make them commonplace, just like you don't have (as someone on this board put it) +7 Vorpal Blades at walmart. Most casters pale-in-comparison to PrCs ... as long as there exists full +1 CL PrCs that also grant abilities ... there is no reason to stay as a cleric ... |
| zephyrTR08-07-07, 02:00 PM | core meaning only the base classes in the PHB1, but tweaks for flavor/balance/fun/campaign reasons. That means no hexblades, favored souls, dragon shaman, wu jen, warlocks ... Sorry my online DnD jargon isn't top shelf yet. Just look at when i joined the forums. And acquiring a prestige class is hard to do in one of my campaigns since they're so obviously better than normal classes. My point is to not buff a base class because its overpowered, but rather make prestige classes harder to acquire (my favorite is still trying to become a drunken master - must survive a night of drinking with a bunch of masters without embarassing himself. Says so right in the book and EVERY prestige class should have something like this required to be one.) |
| Spikes01k08-07-07, 02:02 PM | Why? Giving them their wis bonus to ref saves, helps their weaker saves, they already are going to be having a good Wis (will) , and probably an ok Con (fort) score ... Running turning off their wisdom would help eliminate MAD, but that would be overkill ... plus against the feel of turning (the ability for a mortal to channel the force of presence of their deity) My point is it is already over kill why stop with with what you did at this point. |
| Ics08-07-07, 02:12 PM | Why didn't you do this kind of fix for the Fighter?He didn't do the fighter because then it'd be REALLY obvious that he copied off of me (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=900781) :P . I guess I should take this as a compliment; after all, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery! |
| zorgling2508-07-07, 02:15 PM | What kind of build would that be? Human: undeath (extra turning)/planning (extend spell) -- persist spell -- DMM persist -- so at first level, they have spent all feats/domain -- and what spell are they going to persist? (at most 2) 3rd level, they get a feat ... and 2nd level spells ... probably also have the holy reliquary (MIC) ... what spell(s) are they going to persist? 5th level, what spells are they going to persist? (at most 2) 7th level, I assume they have divine power up ... what other spell makes them able to take out enemies 5-6 levels above them? But ... assuming they have divine power up at all times -- how is that any different than what I posted? 3 characters with Persistent Divine Power + 1 character with Persistent Mass Lesser Vigor. Godlike fighting strength + infinite healing = as many encounters as you can fit in 24 hours. Prior to level 7, they'd still have greater fighting strength than the traditional iconic party (fighter, cleric, rogue, wizard) since their average chance to hit (based on their attack bonuses) is still higher, and they have 2x the casting power. You'll note that I never said your variant is stronger than the base class. However, the Cleric is clearly the strongest, or at least close to the strongest class in the game, since a party of 4 of them can dominate encounters for THE MAJORITY of their levels. NO CLASS should be strong enough that a party of 4 of them can out-adventure a party split among the iconic classes. Therefore, there should never be a cleric variant strengthening them, which yours undeniably does. I haven't had a player take 20 levels in a base class, but I have been in groups where players went from level 1 to 13 in a base class ... then the characters were retired ... I assume that is close enough? That depends on what class it was, and how adept the player was at building characters...and how much he lagged behind in combat. As far as it being well-acknowledged ... can you point me to a thread with the specifics (build vs build) ... as I have read people talk about things ... but never saw WHY it is true ... We can do one here, if you give this thread a couple of days. I must have missed that ... I did read where PrCs are supposed to be better in niche things than generic base classes ... but not better in every aspect ... Some are. Others are clearly stronger than the base class they were intended for, such as the Archmage and Loremaster. |
| Meyer_William08-07-07, 02:15 PM | core meaning only the base classes in the PHB1, but tweaks for flavor/balance/fun/campaign reasons. That means no hexblades, favored souls, dragon shaman, wu jen, warlocks ... Sorry my online DnD jargon isn't top shelf yet. Just look at when i joined the forums. And acquiring a prestige class is hard to do in one of my campaigns since they're so obviously better than normal classes. My point is to not buff a base class because its overpowered, but rather make prestige classes harder to acquire (my favorite is still trying to become a drunken master - must survive a night of drinking with a bunch of masters without embarassing himself. Says so right in the book and EVERY prestige class should have something like this required to be one.) But that is DM fiat ... and using that to fix the imbalance of classes acknowledges that there is a problem with the core class ... which is what I am trying to fix. |
| zorgling2508-07-07, 02:16 PM | He didn't do the fighter because then it'd be REALLY obvious that he copied off of me (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=900781) :P . I guess I should take this as a compliment; after all, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery! Unless its parody, which I'm starting to get the feeling it might be... This thread is going to turn out to be a complete joke. |
| zephyrTR08-07-07, 02:17 PM | He didn't do the fighter because then it'd be REALLY obvious that he copied off of me (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=900781) :P . I guess I should take this as a compliment; after all, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery! oh geez - yea |
| Meyer_William08-07-07, 02:18 PM | My point is it is already over kill why stop with with what you did at this point. This is amazing ... some posters are saying that the abilities are too powerful, others not powerful enough ... and some ... that it is only what the cleric already gets ... :confused: |
| RobbyPants08-07-07, 02:23 PM | Unless its parody, which I'm starting to get the feeling it might be... This thread is going to turn out to be a complete joke. It might be... If it is a joke, then this is a bad thread. Here are some other examples of a bad thread: http://static.flickr.com/47/186968244_6d6abe449a.jpg http://www.nordicaboats.com/assets/images/Bad-Thread-T.jpg :P |
| zorgling2508-07-07, 02:29 PM | This is amazing ... some posters are saying that the abilities are too powerful, others not powerful enough ... and some ... that it is only what the cleric already gets ... :confused: Nobody says the abilities aren't powerful enough. Those who do are being sarcastic. |
| Meyer_William08-07-07, 02:30 PM | 3 characters with Persistent Divine Power + 1 character with Persistent Mass Lesser Vigor. Godlike fighting strength + infinite healing = as many encounters as you can fit in 24 hours. Prior to level 7, they'd still have greater fighting strength than the traditional iconic party (fighter, cleric, rogue, wizard) since their average chance to hit (based on their attack bonuses) is still higher, and they have 2x the casting power. Regardless of if this is true or not ... this is talking about the base class ... which is inferior to the base class + prc ... You'll note that I never said your variant is stronger than the base class. However, the Cleric is clearly the strongest, or at least close to the strongest class in the game, since a party of 4 of them can dominate encounters for THE MAJORITY of their levels. NO CLASS should be strong enough that a party of 4 of them can out-adventure a party split among the iconic classes. Therefore, there should never be a cleric variant strengthening them, which yours undeniably does. um ... :confused: ... is the variant stronger -- or not? Personally, since it gets additional abilities and loses nothing, I would consider it stronger ... but ... That depends on what class it was, and how adept the player was at building characters...and how much he lagged behind in combat. The question was "have I ever seen a player use a class from 1-20" ... I answered by saying i haven't gone to 20 ... our campaigns end earlier than that -- but that I have seen players play a singleclassed (non-prc) class from 1st to when the campaign ends ... not sure how the adept the player is .. or combat powers -- enters into the equation. Some are. Others are clearly stronger than the base class they were intended for, such as the Archmage and Loremaster. Well ... depending on how well recieved this cleric varient is ... I might do one for the other full casters (druid I will save for last, as it has the least amount of dead levels) |
| Taeldrin Laesrash08-07-07, 02:36 PM | Well ... depending on how well recieved this cleric varient is ... I might do one for the other full casters (druid I will save for last, as it has the least amount of dead levels) It's not well received. The general consensus is that this adds abilities that don't make sense to a class already regarded as the most powerful. Everyone else thinks this is a joke that's gone too far. |
| zorgling2508-07-07, 02:42 PM | Regardless of if this is true or not ... this is talking about the base class ... which is inferior to the base class + prc ... Except this holds true for all classes. Fighter+Wizard pure < Fighter + Wizard + Eldritch Knight. Wizard < Wizard + Archmage. Barbarian < Barbarian + Frenzied Berserker. Rogue < Rogue + Nightsong Enforcer Sure, the PrCs all lose something the base class has, but all Cleric PrCs do too. How many Cleric PrCs keep full casting, turn undead progression, d8 Hit Dice , and 2 good saves. Another thing: Why did you increase HD and BAB progression. If a cleric "gets these anyways" (which is false since the cleric MIGHT NOT use divine power) then why should you hand them to them on a silver platter? um ... :confused: ... is the variant stronger -- or not? Personally, since it gets additional abilities and loses nothing, I would consider it stronger ... but ... It is stronger, and no Cleric variant should be. The fact that I didn't say it in my initial post has nothing to do with whether it is stronger. The question was "have I ever seen a player use a class from 1-20" ... I answered by saying i haven't gone to 20 ... our campaigns end earlier than that -- but that I have seen players play a singleclassed (non-prc) class from 1st to when the campaign ends ... not sure how the adept the player is .. or combat powers -- enters into the equation. Its relevant because an inept player playing a a single-classed character is not going to say anything about the class's strength. |
| zorgling2508-07-07, 02:44 PM | It's not well received. The general consensus is that this adds abilities that don't make sense to a class already regarded as the most powerful. Everyone else thinks this is a joke that's gone too far. It could also potentially qualify as trolling...depending on how strict your definition is. |
| Caelic08-07-07, 02:52 PM | He didn't do the fighter because then it'd be REALLY obvious that he copied off of me (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=900781) :P . I guess I should take this as a compliment; after all, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery! AHA! I stand corrected! It's not ironic humor and satire, it's direct parody! |
| Meyer_William08-07-07, 02:55 PM | It's not well received. The general consensus is that this adds abilities that don't make sense to a class already regarded as the most powerful. Everyone else thinks this is a joke that's gone too far. If this were a joke ... then I would have to say that saying "Everyone" is a bit much ... don't you think? Board consensus is that Druid > Cleric. But ... try to take this seriously for a minute ... Explain how Cleric 6 / Radiant Servant of Pelor 10 / Sacred Exorcist 4 is not more powerful than Cleric 20, as well as being thematically sound. |
| frayedknot08-07-07, 02:57 PM | The Cleric Revisited ...broken pipe dream... Dude, it's :puff: :puff: :pass: Do not bogart, it is bad. |
| Meyer_William08-07-07, 03:02 PM | Except this holds true for all classes. Fighter+Wizard pure < Fighter + Wizard + Eldritch Knight. Wizard < Wizard + Archmage. Barbarian < Barbarian + Frenzied Berserker. Rogue < Rogue + Nightsong Enforcer Sure, the PrCs all lose something the base class has, but all Cleric PrCs do too. How many Cleric PrCs keep full casting, turn undead progression, d8 Hit Dice , and 2 good saves. Actually .. since the city-scape web enhancment, it is no longer accuracter to say "Barbarian < Barbarian + Frenzied Berzerker" -- they are now alternatives ... each has their own niche. I know of no cleric PrC that does all that ... but I know of them that keep full casting+d8+2 good saves, or ones that keep full casting+turn undead+other stuff ... Another thing: Why did you increase HD and BAB progression. If a cleric "gets these anyways" (which is false since the cleric MIGHT NOT use divine power) then why should you hand them to them on a silver platter? :confused: Either clerics rule because of DMM divine power ... in which case why not give it to them as a base class ability ... or cleric's don't use them, in which case, this will help somewhat as a reason to stay in the base class. It is stronger, and no Cleric variant should be. The fact that I didn't say it in my initial post has nothing to do with whether it is stronger. I posted in a different reply a question asking about power level of cleric+prc vs base cleric ... If the base class is poorly enough designed so that PrCs are jumped into as soon as possible ... then the power level of the base class needs to be improved to put it on par with PrCs. Its relevant because an inept player playing a a single-classed character is not going to say anything about the class's strength. If the question is "Does anyone play a class to completion" -- and the answer is "yes", then the question is answered. If the question is "Is it more advantageous to play a different build" -- then the strength of the build, or the players abilities comes into question. |
| Cryos, Icy Manipulator08-07-07, 03:03 PM | Divine power also gives you +6 enhancement bonus to strength ... so this is not a fair comparison. Honestly, out-side of combat, what does BAB matter? Inside combat, how many minutes more than 10-15 minutes are characters in combat each day? The problem with this logic is you are assuming that ONE casting of Divine Power would suffice for the entire day. Unless you rest after each battle, this is quite the opposite. Consolidated, the amount of actual fighting might not exceed 15 minutes, but thats if all the fighting for the day happened back to back. Look at it this way; you are giving the Cleric full BAB because you are saying that they would already have that anyway(thanks to casting Divine Favor). Thats fine, so you are giving the cleric one free lv4 spell. But you forget that in the time between the first battle and the second battle, 10-15 minutes have more than likely elapsed, hence another casting of Divine Power is needed (2nd free 4th level spell) and so forth until the cleric rests. A normal cleric specialized in fighting would have to memorize 4+ Divine Powers, which, with you giving your variant Cleric full BAB, have just opened. Also, a free Miracle a day? Granted there are steep penalties to casting it, thats like giving a Wizard a free Wish or a free Timestop every day. Edit: Grammar :behold: |
| Meyer_William08-07-07, 03:04 PM | Originally Posted by Taeldrin Laesrash It's not well received. The general consensus is that this adds abilities that don't make sense to a class already regarded as the most powerful. Everyone else thinks this is a joke that's gone too far. It could also potentially qualify as trolling...depending on how strict your definition is. I have since updated the initial post to add justification for the added powers ... Additionally -- no one has yet to answer ... if multiclassing (PrCs) is needed/desired due to power level ... then how is the cleric overpowered? Or how this potential build is too powerful (specifics, not generalities). |
| Meyer_William08-07-07, 03:08 PM | The problem with this logic is you are assuming that ONE casting of Divine Power would suffice for the entire day. Unless you rest after each battle, this is quite the opposite. Consolidated, the amount of actual fighting might not exceed 15 minutes, but thats if all the fighting for the day happened back to back. Look at it this way; you are giving the Cleric full BAB because you are saying that they would already have that anyway(thanks to casting Divine Favor). Thats fine, so you are giving the cleric one free lv4 spell. But you forget that in the time between the first battle and the second battle, 10-15 minutes have more than likely elapsed, hence another casting of Divine Power is needed (2nd free 4th level spell) and so forth until the cleric rests. A normal cleric specialized in fighting would have to memorize 4+ Divine Powers, which, with you giving your variant Cleric full BAB, have justed opened. Shrug ... I have read lots of threads about CoDzilla ... clerics have divine power up for every fight ... this just opens up their spells so that they can do other things ... Look at the one poster, who showed me that clerics already get DMM persist at 1st level (or so) ... Also, a free Miracle a day? Granted there are steep penalties to casting it, thats like giving a Wizard a free Wish or a free Timestop every day. :behold: So? At level 20, a cleric already has 4+1 (+wis) 9th level spells ... how is getting ONE extra specified 9th level spell/day as a capstone ability overpowered? Especially if you consider that a specialist wizard of 17th level already has an extra 9th level, or that the master specialist wizard has granted 2 more extra at 17th level. |
| Leress08-07-07, 03:26 PM | Look at the cleric class ... they get no abilities after 1st level ... except for increased spellcasting and turn undead -- which several PrCs give it ... when there is no reason to stay in the class, then it has dead levels ... in fact, here is a link to a WOTC article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a)spelling that out. Why not? If it plans on entering melee, it will cast divine power. If it doesn't plan on attacking -- what does the BAB give it? This is to help entice people to not PrC out of Cleric, as I don't know of any full casting/bab class out there for clerics. That was a very poorly written article. As I said before, if someone is going to prestige out they would do it anyway. Trying to entice them to stay is poor class design. It doesn't greatly increase the spells the class can cast ... it adds a max of 2 spells available to the class ... since it only has 1 domain slot, then the class can (usually) only prepare one of 4 spells ... cleric PrCs already grant this (or more) Okay Let me understand ... I didn't make this ability powerful enough? I didn't say that, (it was more of a critique of turn undead) The class gets evasion, as it is a nice feature to have ... and works well with the ability to add Wis to its Ref save. This is a trade-off, since evasion only works in light armor, this gives the cleric an incentive to not be a heavy armored character. Especially since Divine Oracle (I think that is correct) gives a version of Evasion that works in any type of armor. Too bad you have a poor reflex save so it doesn't help it much. Thanks, I will modify it to correct this issue. Welcome I don't get it ... How is cleric is uber ... when people want to PrC out, as they get all the abilities of the class and more if they do so? Mechanically it is high on the power scale, people will prestige out anyway if they want to. You should make a variant that can handle the challenges that are appropriate for its level. |
| CrimsonDeath08-07-07, 03:32 PM | The problem with this logic is you are assuming that ONE casting of Divine Power would suffice for the entire day. Unless you rest after each battle, this is quite the opposite. Consolidated, the amount of actual fighting might not exceed 15 minutes, but thats if all the fighting for the day happened back to back. I think 15 minutes is a generous estimate. Divine Power only lasts one round/level. By level 20, that's two minutes per spell slot. If you want it for 15 minutes, you could use three of your fourth level slots to cast it, and then three of your fifth level slots to Extend it. (Or you could DMM: Persist it... but not everyone does that.) Also, a free Miracle a day? Granted there are steep penalties to casting it, thats like giving a Wizard a free Wish or a free Timestop every day. Actually, there's no penalty for casting Miracle if you (1)Duplicate an 8th level cleric spell, (2)Duplicate any 7th level or lower spell, (3)Undo the harmful effects of certain spells that may only be reversed by powerful magic, or (4)Anything else with a similar amount of power. Only if you decide to exceed these effects is an XP expenditure required. |
| frayedknot08-07-07, 03:34 PM | So? At level 20, a cleric already has 4+1 (+wis) 9th level spells ... how is getting ONE extra specified 9th level spell/day as a capstone ability overpowered? dude. seriously. stop. You're killing me with this. :P We are laughing at your "cleric" (I use THAT term in the loosest sense of the word.) It's starting to be not funny anymore... stop while you're ahead. |
| Meyer_William08-07-07, 03:37 PM | That was a very poorly written article. As I said before, if someone is going to prestige out they would do it anyway. Trying to entice them to stay is poor class design. So ... The official WOTC article is dismissed because it is poorly written -- ok. The fact that people want to PrC out of the cleric class ASAP is an issue ... but fixing that issue -- is poor class design? What other choice is there? Treating the cleric as if it has only 5-6 levels in it? Banning PrCs? Rewriting any +1CL PrC to lose the first level (as psionics does)? Too bad you have a poor reflex save so it doesn't help it much. Which was helped by adding your wisdom bonus to your reflex save ... Mechanically it is high on the power scale, people will prestige out anyway if they want to. You should make a variant that can handle the challenges that are appropriate for its level. So ... what does this mean? I should create a cleric variant with less power? It would have the same issues with PrCing out of it .. |
| Geezer08-07-07, 03:38 PM | Okay, it's getting really hard to tell Meyer William is joking or not. Meyer, the overwhelming majority agrees that the core cleric is one of the most powerful classes in the game. What you've done is taken away any downsides to playing the class, and replaced them with better alternatives, such as more skill points, higher HD, more domains (which brings in more special abilities, and enhancing a cleric's spellcasting even further), and increased their Base Attack Bonus as well. Then you went and took away every single one of a cleric's dead levels replacing them with potent abilities. This is a no-no. Quoting from the WoTC article regarding dead levels: The wizard has fifteen dead levels, but she shares a lot in common with the sorcerer in that new spells are gained at every level (which can be considered special abilities in their own right). Right there in black and white. The classes mentioned are both arcane classes, but like the cleric they also have full spellcasting. Arcane magic is regarded as being a little more powerful than divine magic, which is why divine casters have better HP and saves, it's a balancing factor. What you have done is completely and utterly destroyed any and all semblance of balance. That alone is not a terrible deed, when done unintentionally. You obviously made a real effort to make this class as powerful as you could, ignoring countless logical arguments from many different sources, and twisting their arguments against you and using that made up argument, you went ahead and made the class even more powerful. Why did you do all this? Because you did not like the idea of playing entering a prestigue class. The fact of the matter is that because of your actions, your class that your created is now considered a joke. End of story. Someone please lock this thread in the near future. |
| Meyer_William08-07-07, 03:39 PM | dude. seriously. stop. You're killing me with this. :P We are laughing at your "cleric" (I use THAT term in the loosest sense of the word.) It's starting to be not funny anymore... stop while you're ahead. Ok ... Lets take a step back. Cleric as a class ... is PrCed out as soon as possible -- correct? How would you suggest fixing this? |
| Meyer_William08-07-07, 03:49 PM | Okay, it's getting really hard to tell Meyer William is joking or not. Meyer, the overwhelming majority agrees that the core cleric is one of the most powerful classes in the game. What you've done is taken away any downsides to playing the class, and replaced them with better alternatives, such as more skill points, higher HD, more domains (which brings in more special abilities, and enhancing a cleric's spellcasting even further), and increased their Base Attack Bonus as well. Then you went and took away every single one of a cleric's dead levels replacing them with potent abilities. This is a no-no. So far ... no one has explained to me why making a base class comparable to the benefits of multi-classing (PrCing) is bad. The arguments against this class variant, some have been well thought out -- but most have been generalities ... my specific examples are being ignored ... Right there in black and white. The classes mentioned are both arcane classes, but like the cleric they also have full spellcasting. Arcane magic is regarded as being a little more powerful than divine magic, which is why divine casters have better HP and saves, it's a balancing factor. I am not positioning this class to be compared to other base classes ... I am comparing this class to other cleric/prcs ... out there ... What you have done is completely and utterly destroyed any and all semblance of balance. That alone is not a terrible deed, when done unintentionally. You obviously made a real effort to make this class as powerful as you could, ignoring countless logical arguments from many different sources, and twisting their arguments against you and using that made up argument, you went ahead and made the class even more powerful. How? Read the response from the earlier posted about DMM persistant divine power -- this variant is tamer than that ... Why did you do all this? Because you did not like the idea of playing entering a prestigue class. The fact of the matter is that because of your actions, your class that your created is now considered a joke. End of story. Someone please lock this thread in the near future. I made this thread to help take care of some of the problems of being a cleric ... specifically the dead levels and lack of reason not to PrC. I am looking for real comments / concerns with this class ... If you feel that this thread needs to be locked, please report it to one of the Wiz_Os ... else, please stop posting in it ... if you have nothing constructive to say (either for or against this build). |
| Franco Un-American08-07-07, 03:50 PM | Remove the first level of casting from each full-casting PrC. There, problem solved. The problem was the PrC's were too good, not the cleric was too weak. |
| frayedknot08-07-07, 04:08 PM | Ok ... Lets take a step back. Cleric as a class ... is PrCed out as soon as possible -- correct? How would you suggest fixing this? I don't believe that. The last two clerics I played (up to 18th and to 14th) I stayed solid cleric. I didn't have a problem with not being able to handle things in the party. I had a great time playing those chars. It doesn't need fixing IMHO. (I know I'm in the minority. I like taking PrC's for their flavor, not to take the PrC that is going to give me more powers...) |
| Meyer_William08-07-07, 04:23 PM | Actually, there's no penalty for casting Miracle if you (1)Duplicate an 8th level cleric spell, (2)Duplicate any 7th level or lower spell, (3)Undo the harmful effects of certain spells that may only be reversed by powerful magic, or (4)Anything else with a similar amount of power. Only if you decide to exceed these effects is an XP expenditure required. from the SRD: You dont so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede. I don't think he was talking about XP -- I think he was talking about possibly getting your deity mad at you - if you miracle for a ham sandwich daily. |
| indeterminate08-07-07, 04:24 PM | So far ... no one has explained to me why making a base class comparable to the benefits of multi-classing (PrCing) is bad. PrCs all have a cost of entry. All of them require you to make some specific choices with your character. This means that if you had wanted to do something else you might not be able to because of PrC requirements which is part of the trade-off for additional abilities. Your base class removes those costs. I am not positioning this class to be compared to other base classes ... I am comparing this class to other cleric/prcs ... out there ... But it IS a base class so it MUST be compared to them. There is no barrier for entry into this class like there are with PrCs therefore it is not valid to compare it to multi-class characters. How? Read the response from the earlier posted about DMM persistant divine power -- this variant is tamer than that ... This variant may be tamer than a focused DMM build but that just means that you get the DMM-lite build here and then can put the dmm build on top of it. Don't you see the issue here? People make specific builds using clerics and this class can be all of those builds and more. I made this thread to help take care of some of the problems of being a cleric ... specifically the dead levels and lack of reason not to PrC. Clerics have no dead levels. And why must there be a reason to not PrC? That's the one thing you have not answered throughout this entire thread. Why is it necessary that you prevent people from taking a PrC? |
| Meyer_William08-07-07, 04:24 PM | I don't believe that. The last two clerics I played (up to 18th and to 14th) I stayed solid cleric. I didn't have a problem with not being able to handle things in the party. I had a great time playing those chars. It doesn't need fixing IMHO. (I know I'm in the minority. I like taking PrC's for their flavor, not to take the PrC that is going to give me more powers...) OK ... so you accepted the less powerful base class over the more powerful build? Even if one of the PrCs fits the flavor of your cleric. Ok ...that is legitimate. Thanks, |
| zorgling2508-07-07, 04:30 PM | Ok ... Lets take a step back. Cleric as a class ... is PrCed out as soon as possible -- correct? How would you suggest fixing this? OK, lets look at it this way: You're saying that Cleric is inferior to any PrC combination that jumps out of it quickly. Name me a class (and present a build) for which this DOESN'T hold true. Of the PHB classes: Barbarian - No actual dead levels, but several of the levels are arguably dead (unless you want to put levels in your variant progression that are just turn undead +1/day). Druid is also universally accepted as the most broken PHB class (making up the D in CoDzilla) Bard - Dead levels here and there, no specific level to drop out at, but dropping for some PrC is going to be better. Druid - No actual dead levels, but several of the Wild Shape levels are arguably dead (unless you want to put levels in your variant progression that are just turn undead +1/day). Druid is also universally accepted as the most broken PHB class (making up the D in CoDzilla) Fighter - Dead levels alternating after level 2. No great benefit, so drop after 2. Monk - No big dead levels, but the class is arguably one of the weakest to begin with. Paladin - No NEW class features after level 5, drop after that. Ranger - Relatively balanced 1-20 Rogue - Relatively balanced 1-20 Sorcerer - Dead levels after 1st Wizard - Bonus feat selection limited (only metamagics and item creation) and only useful to certain builds, so effectively dead after 1st. Suddenly, 4 classes being dead-level balanced becomes a precedent for making others do so, despite the fact that 3 of them don't have a 9-level spell progression, while the fourth is universally accepted as being overpowered? And despite this you STILL don't see people suggesting Rogue 20, Ranger 20 or Barbarian 20 on the CO forums. And I can give you a reason why the build for a Cleric you presented above would not be better than pure Cleric 20: you're restricted to only a single Neutral Good God! IMO this really isn't funny anymore and is effectively trolling. You knew EXACTLY what kind of response you'd get, and if you didn't you know now. The fact that you're pushing this just to get a reaction out of the community is trolling. IMO a moderator better close this thread before things get ugly. |
| Meyer_William08-07-07, 04:44 PM | PrCs all have a cost of entry. All of them require you to make some specific choices with your character. This means that if you had wanted to do something else you might not be able to because of PrC requirements which is part of the trade-off for additional abilities. Your base class removes those costs. Lets look at some PrCs in the complete divine: Church Inquisitor: Prereq's ... LG/LN ... Will +3 (cleric 2 meets) Skills : Know (arc) 4, Know (rel) 4, Spellcraft 4 (cleric level 1 meets) Spells : Must be able to cast zone of truth as divine (cleric 3 meets) Special: Roleplaying ... Benefits: +1 CL, d8, cleric BAB, skills 4+, special abilities. Loses: turn undead. If taken at level 5, trades 2 points of fort save for 2 points of will. No real opportunity costs -- clear cut benefit. (turn undead (except in a dedicated turned -- does not scale as fast as it needs to)) Radiant Servant of Pelor: Prereq's: Heal 5 + things a dedicated turner has. Benefits: Better turning than cleric. Better saves than cleric (due to the initial boost). Special abilities. Loss ... HD is reduced one size. Sacred Exorcist. Prereqs Skills: Knowl (planes) 10, religion (7) Spells: able to cast 4th level spell. Roleplaying. Benefits: Cleric BAB, trades 2 points of fort for 2 points of will, +1CL, and special abilities. Loses ... Nothing. But it IS a base class so it MUST be compared to them. There is no barrier for entry into this class like there are with PrCs therefore it is not valid to compare it to multi-class characters. Why? I am comparing a cleric + prc to this base class ... PrCs are part of DnD. Take a look at the CO boards, and tell me how many sane builds are posted that do not PrC out of cleric. This variant may be tamer than a focused DMM build but that just means that you get the DMM-lite build here and then can put the dmm build on top of it. Don't you see the issue here? People make specific builds using clerics and this class can be all of those builds and more. No ... this class cannot be all those builds and more. It cannot turn as well as radiant servant of pelor, it cannot exorcise as well as sacred exorcist .. and is not that much better than a base cleric for multi-class (cleric/monk-sacred fist) builds due to the higher powered abilities are gotten at higher levels. Clerics have no dead levels. And why must there be a reason to not PrC? That's the one thing you have not answered throughout this entire thread. Why is it necessary that you prevent people from taking a PrC? I am not preventing people from PrCing ... I am trying to make the base cleric class as good as base cleric+PrC ... Clerics do have dead levels ... or ... if you want to say it differently -- there are 19 levels where a cleric loses no class abilities if it enters a PrC which has +1 CL and +1 turning (turning only if it is needed in the campaign). |
| zorgling2508-07-07, 04:49 PM | YOU have yet to prove to the rest of US that ANY other class is better than that class + PrCs. UNTIL you do that, there is no reason for this class to be better than itself+prcs. |
| Meyer_William08-07-07, 04:52 PM | OK, lets look at it this way: You're saying that Cleric is inferior to any PrC combination that jumps out of it quickly. Name me a class (and present a build) for which this DOESN'T hold true. Of the PHB classes: Barbarian - No actual dead levels, but several of the levels are arguably dead (unless you want to put levels in your variant progression that are just turn undead +1/day). Druid is also universally accepted as the most broken PHB class (making up the D in CoDzilla) Bard - Dead levels here and there, no specific level to drop out at, but dropping for some PrC is going to be better. Druid - No actual dead levels, but several of the Wild Shape levels are arguably dead (unless you want to put levels in your variant progression that are just turn undead +1/day). Druid is also universally accepted as the most broken PHB class (making up the D in CoDzilla) Fighter - Dead levels alternating after level 2. No great benefit, so drop after 2. Monk - No big dead levels, but the class is arguably one of the weakest to begin with. Paladin - No NEW class features after level 5, drop after that. Ranger - Relatively balanced 1-20 Rogue - Relatively balanced 1-20 Sorcerer - Dead levels after 1st Wizard - Bonus feat selection limited (only metamagics and item creation) and only useful to certain builds, so effectively dead after 1st. Suddenly, 4 classes being dead-level balanced becomes a precedent for making others do so, despite the fact that 3 of them don't have a 9-level spell progression, while the fourth is universally accepted as being overpowered? And despite this you STILL don't see people suggesting Rogue 20, Ranger 20 or Barbarian 20 on the CO forums. And I can give you a reason why the build for a Cleric you presented above would not be better than pure Cleric 20: you're restricted to only a single Neutral Good God! To answer your question in generalities ... Any class but Cleric and Sorcerer gets some amount of class abilities after level 1. To PrC out of the class, they are giving something up ... Some PrCs come close to matching the base class ... as far as return on opportunity cost ... but it is a case of giving up X to get Y ... the cleric and sorcerer give up no class abilities to take a PrC. To answer your question with specifics. Monk 20 -- no PrC exists that I know of (including the trickster one and the legacy one which both advance class abilities) can be used to create this ... or anything close to this. Fighter 20 -- no PrC exists which gives 5 free bonus feats over the 10 levels. As far as worshipping a NG diety -- that is a role-playing restriction which does nothing to balance the power level of the build. Most of the time, in DnD games (in my experience) the deity only comes up for certain spells (faith healing, recitation, spiritual weapon, etc) ... and not for any other reason. |
| zorgling2508-07-07, 04:55 PM | Why? I am comparing a cleric + prc to this base class ... PrCs are part of DnD. Take a look at the CO boards, and tell me how many sane builds are posted that do not PrC out of cleric. Take a look at the CO boards, and tell me how many sane builds are posted that do not PrC out of ANY CLASS. No ... this class cannot be all those builds and more. It cannot turn as well as radiant servant of pelor, it cannot exorcise as well as sacred exorcist .. and is not that much better than a base cleric for multi-class (cleric/monk-sacred fist) builds due to the higher powered abilities are gotten at higher levels. Except you admit that you've tried to make it as good as those builds. By doing so you disrespect the work that people have put into those builds (they certainly are not EASY to come up with). [quote]I am not preventing people from PrCing ... I am trying to make the base cleric class as good as base cleric+PrC ... [QUOTE] Theres no reason it should be. You haven't proven that any other base class is. If you have a problem with PrCs, prohibit them from your game. |
| Meyer_William08-07-07, 04:56 PM | YOU have yet to prove to the rest of US that ANY other class is better than that class + PrCs. UNTIL you do that, there is no reason for this class to be better than itself+prcs. Keep in mind that I am not saying that certain class+prc builds are not more powerful than the base class -- I am saying that there are really few classes which are so easily demonstratably weaker than base class + prc. My examples are in a previous post ... sorry it took me longer than 20 minutes (time between your 2 posts) to write up ... |
| zorgling2508-07-07, 04:59 PM | To answer your question with specifics. Monk 20 -- no PrC exists that I know of (including the trickster one and the legacy one which both advance class abilities) can be used to create this ... or anything close to this. Fighter 20 -- no PrC exists which gives 5 free bonus feats over the 10 levels. Wait, your argument for powering up the Cleric even further are the FIGHTER and the MONK!!!??!? Just because nothing emulates either of those doesn't mean that they are good. Give me a Fighter 20 build that can beat a Fighter 2/Some other stuff 18 build that someone else here can make. Do the same for the monk. Just cuz no PrC exists that gives 5 bonus feats over 10 levels doesn't mean that all PrC combinations are worse. In fact, it means that most are BETTER (feats generally < class features for PrCs) |
| Joshua Randall08-07-07, 05:00 PM | This is truly one of the funniest things I have ever read. |
| indeterminate08-07-07, 05:03 PM | Lets look at some PrCs in the complete divine: Church Inquisitor: Prereq's ... LG/LN ... Will +3 (cleric 2 meets) Skills : Know (arc) 4, Know (rel) 4, Spellcraft 4 (cleric level 1 meets) Spells : Must be able to cast zone of truth as divine (cleric 3 meets) Special: Roleplaying ... Benefits: +1 CL, d8, cleric BAB, skills 4+, special abilities. Loses: turn undead. If taken at level 5, trades 2 points of fort save for 2 points of will. No real opportunity costs -- clear cut benefit. (turn undead (except in a dedicated turned -- does not scale as fast as it needs to)) Required skill ranks, special roleplaying requirements which should be enforced. If they aren't it is the DM's fault the calss is so advantageous and not the calss itself. Loses Fort saves, INCREDIBLY restrictive alignment requirements, you lose a BAB. Unless the campaign conatins a significant amount of enchantment, illusions, and possession the special abilities are situational at best. Radiant Servant of Pelor: Prereq's: Heal 5 + things a dedicated turner has. Benefits: Better turning than cleric. Better saves than cleric (due to the initial boost). Special abilities. Loss ... HD is reduced one size. Again skill requirements, even more restrictive alignment/deity choice not to mention turning is extremely inefficient at mid to high levels and one of your domains is already determined as well. You also lose a BAB and that HD hit is pretty detrimental to a class that usually likes to get into melee. Why? I am comparing a cleric + prc to this base class ... PrCs are part of DnD. Take a look at the CO boards, and tell me how many sane builds are posted that do not PrC out of cleric. If you look at the CO boards EVERY SINGLE CLASS IS PRCED OUT OF. There are occasionally builds suggested using just base classes but they are always less than optimal and usually because someone requested a restricted build. Since no base class is taken to 20 then you must again go back to comparing base classes and not base class + PrC I am not preventing people from PrCing ... I am trying to make the base cleric class as good as base cleric+PrC ... But why? Clerics do have dead levels ... or ... if you want to say it differently -- there are 19 levels where a cleric loses no class abilities if it enters a PrC which has +1 CL and +1 turning (turning only if it is needed in the campaign). Any level where you get additional spells per day or additional spells known is not a dead level. |
| zorgling2508-07-07, 05:03 PM | Keep in mind that I am not saying that certain class+prc builds are not more powerful than the base class -- I am saying that there are really few classes which are so easily demonstratably weaker than base class + prc. My examples are in a previous post ... sorry it took me longer than 20 minutes (time between your 2 posts) to write up ... Again, then your solution shouldn't involve giving full BAB and d10 hit dice. These are superflous to making the cleric as strong as its PrCs. |
| zorgling2508-07-07, 05:05 PM | This is truly one of the funniest things I have ever read. It'd be funny to me too, if it weren't clear that he either isn't joking, or is trolling. |
| Zendu08-07-07, 05:09 PM | Bravo! Finally someone has looked at this under-appreciated class! You almost never see one in a party, but now I'm sure they will be popping up all over the place! I like how you basically made all of their saves good, now i don't have to look for prestige classes so that my character can be balanced compared to.... uhh.... imagined threats? I cant think of one right now. I still think he needs some sort of divine rage, where he could smite or something, because this guys damage in melee will suck! ...the common consensus is that clerics need the most help at higher levels... omg i totally agree, I mean look at all the FEATS PRECIOUS FEATS a fighter could get at level 20! Why the bad guys would just curl up and die from his skill focus (basketweaving). Next up fix druids, they suck. |
| Meyer_William08-07-07, 05:13 PM | Wait, your argument for powering up the Cleric even further are the FIGHTER and the MONK!!!??!? Just because nothing emulates either of those doesn't mean that they are good. Give me a Fighter 20 build that can beat a Fighter 2/Some other stuff 18 build that someone else here can make. Do the same for the monk. Just cuz no PrC exists that gives 5 bonus feats over 10 levels doesn't mean that all PrC combinations are worse. In fact, it means that most are BETTER (feats generally < class features for PrCs) No, your question was for me to show ANY level 20 build where class+prc is better than class only. I showed you the two quickest examples I could, where the character loses something to gain something. I am not interested in more PVP builds ... I flip the challenge around ... build me a cleric 20 that I cannot make a Cleric + PrC that does everything the cleric does AND MORE. (no fair saying "must be evil" or something like that do deny the PrCs I posted -- unless it is crucial to your build) |
| Meyer_William08-07-07, 05:22 PM | Required skill ranks, special roleplaying requirements which should be enforced. If they aren't it is the DM's fault the class is so advantageous and not the class itself. Loses Fort saves, INCREDIBLY restrictive alignment requirements, you lose a BAB. Unless the campaign contains a significant amount of enchantment, illusions, and possession the special abilities are situational at best. Actually, you lose no BAB, as you enter at level 5, which a base cleric gets +0 BAB. If you leave at level 9, you still haven't lost a point of BAB. True, the abilities are situational at best ... but they are more than the cleric gets ... Roleplaying is not a valid restriction for mechanical power. Again skill requirements, even more restrictive alignment/deity choice not to mention turning is extremely inefficient at mid to high levels and one of your domains is already determined as well. You also lose a BAB and that HD hit is pretty detrimental to a class that usually likes to get into melee. If you delay entering to level 9, you do not lose a BAB. Although, with divine power (a truism for melee clerics) there is no loss of BAB no matter when it is done. However, for a dedicated turner, this PrC overshadows the base cleric. If you look at the CO boards EVERY SINGLE CLASS IS PRCED OUT OF. There are occasionally builds suggested using just base classes but they are always less than optimal and usually because someone requested a restricted build. Since no base class is taken to 20 then you must again go back to comparing base classes and not base class + PrC If classes are PrCed out ... then what does it matter what abilities are granted after the level at which the PrC happens? This is why it is valid to compare class+Prc with class. Any level where you get additional spells per day or additional spells known is not a dead level. Per WOTC, they are dead levels ... if you have a different definition of dead levels, please post it. |
| Meyer_William08-07-07, 05:23 PM | Again, then your solution shouldn't involve giving full BAB and d10 hit dice. These are superflous to making the cleric as strong as its PrCs. Sorry if I didn't explain it earlier ... it is for 2 reasons: 1) Most clerics I read about cast divine power post level 7 -- so it is as if they had a BAB of +1/lvl and d10 hps. 2) More opportunity cost ... less reason to PrC. |
| Meyer_William08-07-07, 05:26 PM | Bravo! Finally someone has looked at this under-appreciated class! You almost never see one in a party, but now I'm sure they will be popping up all over the place! I like how you basically made all of their saves good, now i don't have to look for prestige classes so that my character can be balanced compared to.... uhh.... imagined threats? I cant think of one right now. I still think he needs some sort of divine rage, where he could smite or something, because this guys damage in melee will suck! I am not saying the class is underappreciated -- but there are threads devoted to playing without a cleric ... like this one (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=900345)... And since most people leave this base class as soon as possible ... it needs adjusting. omg i totally agree, I mean look at all the FEATS PRECIOUS FEATS a fighter could get at level 20! Why the bad guys would just curl up and die from his skill focus (basketweaving). Next up fix druids, they suck. Um ... skill focus (basket weaving) is not a fighter bonus feat and druids have class abilies most every level ... I am not pointing the fighter out as a must-be class for anyone, but the poster requested a class/build -- and he had just mentioned fighter. |
| Archtyrant Terevoth08-07-07, 05:40 PM | I'm just going to assume that this entire thread is a joke and/or troll post. I just have one question for you: Why only d10 hit dice and fighter BaB? Why not d20 hit dice and +2 BaB/level. |
| zorgling2508-07-07, 05:47 PM | While I agree that there is a disparity between the Cleric and its PrCs, your method is not optimal for two reasons: 1) If you are attempting to preserve the balance of the game (which i presume is the ultimate goal of this revision), then the fact that the cleric is on the powerful end of the base classes means that you should weaken PrCs, not strengthen the base class. 2) This is overkill. This now has approximately equal if not greater power than a cleric PrC. Other class PrCs are stronger relative to the base class, you have OVERDONE what you meant to do. While for other classes, there might be merits to PrCing and merits to staying base, this variant now leaves NO REASON to PrC. The reason "it could be that good anyway" is no reason to give d10 hit dice and full BAB. This leaves no reason to build DMM Clerics, meaning that effectively, by making this adjustment you have given characters that would have been DMM clerics 3-4 extra feats they would not have taken otherwise. |
| DeathByRodent08-07-07, 05:48 PM | The cleric class does need adjusting, like almost all of the original base classes. But clerics, absolutely, positively, do not need "uber-ization". The cleric class needs something like HD reduced to d6, spells/day cut-in-half, heavy armor prof taken away, domains granted at later levels and not character creation, something along those lines. It doesn't need full bab, it doesn't need more "stuff" under level 10, it doesn't need more skills, evasion, etc. The cleric class (like many base classes) needs more at later levels. Grant a domain at levels 10, 15, 20 for example. Grant weapon feats at levels 14, 17, 20. etc. Most of all, it needs a name change. Of all the base classes, it has the absolute worst name. Fix that, and the class is fixed! :D |
| dead_radish08-07-07, 05:58 PM | So, without any further adieu, I would like to present It's actually ado, unless you are planning to do this without further goodbyes. That's about the best critique I can offer. Other than that, I can simply say AWESOMETASTIC! Gestalt this with the Lightning Warrior, and you're set. |
| Meyer_William08-07-07, 06:00 PM | It's actually ado, unless you are planning to do this without further goodbyes. That's about the best critique I can offer. Other than that, I can simply say AWESOMETASTIC! Gestalt this with the Lightning Warrior, and you're set. No way ... that class is broken ... but thanks for the catch -- I will modify. |
| Whakapapa08-07-07, 06:04 PM | your game, your rules man. But if I were to play in your game, I wouldn't play any other class but this cleric - does that say something about it? I hope it does.. |
| hoshisabi08-07-07, 06:22 PM | One thing that has always bothered me about the cleric is that it seems to not fit its goal. The one that is in the book seems to be all mismatched, they're overshadowed by the bard at their job: Going out and converting the unenglightened. The big problem is that the wizard knows more about religion than the cleric... the cleric's wisdom doesn't help with the skill that's most crucial to them: Knowledge (religion). I think to fix that, the cleric should add their wisdom modifier to knowledge checks. You could use that instead of the skill focus feat that you add. I also think you might want to consider adding some knowledge skills to their class list. The cleric is missing some of the knowledge skills that a true priest should have, if you're going to go out and spread the word, you should know the area you're living in. So, Knowledge Geography. You should know something about the area you live in. Then the fact that they are responsible for the religious views of both the common man as well as the noble, they should definitely get knowledge of both local and nobility as well. They might as well have architecture, since usually traditionally they did have the records on those matters as well. While we're at it, this is a fantasy realm... they are responsible for converting more than just your typical mundane common humanoid, perhaps we could give them the remaining knowledges so that they could try and sway the beliefs of other races. It just always seemed to me that a first level bard could surpass a cleric in this most integral aspect of their character, a definite sign that there needed to be some work done here. |
| IRememberCecil08-07-07, 06:30 PM | This is seriously one of the most retarded threads I've ever seen. The only one that beats it is the Lightning Warrior (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=868384) thread. And this one. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=861069) Here's a little something to help get everyone's IQs back to normal. Enjoy. (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2828044/1/) |
| snizor08-07-07, 06:45 PM | This is seriously one of the most retarded threads I've ever seen. The only one that beats it is the Lightning Warrior (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=868384) thread. And this one. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=861069) Here's a little something to help get everyone's IQs back to normal. Enjoy. (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2828044/1/) And while we're linking... Here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=901612) is the CO thread discussing your class. and Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20051007a)- Dev test results where Cleric is identified as the MOST POWERFUL CLASS IN THE PLAYER'S HANDBOOK Back to critiquing: To be honest, this class is hideously overpowered compared to ANY OTHER base class in existance (except perhaps the Lightning Warrior). Giving more abilities without consequences to the most powerful base class in the book just doesn't work. Sure, their is little incentive to not PRC out, but that is a flaw in design shared with the Sorcerer. If you want to fix the Cleric to remove dead levels (IE giving worthwhile class abilities besides spells), you have to take away something else. In the Cleric's case, this would probably have to come from their spell progression (less spells-per-day, ect...). |
| dead_radish08-07-07, 06:48 PM | If you are actually serious about this, the way to keep people in a class is not simply to give them more abilities as they level. There are a few ways: 1. Abilities which are tied to class level. Caster level is the simpliest one. Other than that, abilities which can be used 1/day/X levels, or abilities that have a scaling DC, or abilities that increase at higher levels. See rage. 2. Feats which require a minimum level. I don't like those as much, but things like Weapon Spec and the entirety of the fighter Weapon Focus chain. 3. Replacement levels. Having excellent replacement levels at level 12 or higher is a good reason to stay in the class. 4. Don't. Why are you concerned that people won't take it to full levels? PrCs are created for a reason. A PrC gives people more power in a focused range, at the expense of general ability. Well designed PrCs should do that. Badly designed ones don't. And having a class feature at every level is a bit extreme when you also get casting. If you want, give a class feature at every even level - then you get spells *or* features. Warlocks do a good job of this in general. You're not respecting the level curve setup in DnD. A well built, PrC'ed character *will* be better than a core character. A badly PrC'ed one will be worse. That's the balance. Core classes are sort of the training wheels/average balance.. If you want to make the bike run the whole time, you can't just glom on all the PrC abilities you like, and call it done. You've removed all the opportunity costs there are for clerics. BAB? No need to cast Divine Favor - it's already there. DMM? You were gonna take it anyway - here you go! Healing? Yeah, you're better than anyone without needing to focus on it. Etc. I too can't tell how serious you are, but there you go. |
| IRememberCecil08-07-07, 08:01 PM | And while we're linking... You clearly didn't read that last link. I can tell. Let's just say it's gothified Harry Potter fan fiction, written by a 16 years old dyslexic girl named Tara Gilesbie (or Tata Gliesbie) with a less-than-healthy enthusiasm for the band Good Charlotte. |
| snizor08-07-07, 10:36 PM | You clearly didn't read that last link. I can tell. Let's just say it's gothified Harry Potter fan fiction, written by a 16 years old dyslexic girl named Tara Gilesbie (or Tata Gliesbie) with a less-than-healthy enthusiasm for the band Good Charlotte. Actually, I did skim it. |
| IRememberCecil08-08-07, 09:52 AM | Actually, I did skim it. Okay, but if you want to live, don't actually do what I told you. It was plain bad advice. |
| OneWinged4ngel08-11-07, 01:32 PM | I am not saying the class is underappreciated -- but there are threads devoted to playing without a cleric ... like this one (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=900345)... No, it *covers* playing without a cleric, because the Cleric is so downright good that tons of people think they *have* to play with one, and I was just saying that it's *not* something you *have* to do *all* the time to the point that some parties actually browbeat players into playing a class they're not interested in. It has nothing to do with people not liking the class, it has to do with them being *forced* to play a class *if* they don't. In fact, I gave tools for playing a cleric in that thread. I don't appreciate the false statements. It's a guide to healing as *any* class, and an attempt to dispel the common faulty thinking many people run into, which is "we can't heal without a Cleric or Druid." I completely appreciate clerics, and indeed one of my favorite characters ever has just been a straight cleric. Who gave her stuff away to charity (and no, no stupid BoED feats for it). And *still* rocked the house down when it came to who was most effective, cuz she was a ****in' cleric and could breathe radioactive fire and stomp on Tokyo if she felt like it. I didn't even have to use Divine Metamagic or anything. This is because clerics rock without even trying. In fact, even if it *were* a thread wholly about *not* playing with a Cleric or Druid, that would be indicative of the Cleric and Druid being *so powerful* that the game is far more challenging without them, which only serves to greatly hurt your already horrifically bad argument, which is "The Cleric can be made even more overpowered than he already is, so I'm going to try to make him as powerful as those completely overpowered things, and allow him to combo with those overpowered things to become even more overpowered! Yaaay!" :nonono: Next, you'll make a new Druid on the logic that the Druid/Planar Shepherd is way better than the normal Druid. Or a Psion on the logic that it's not as good as the Pun Pun build. There's an extremely easy way to reduce PrCing, if you actually care. Make the overpowered PrCs lose something. Like a caster level. Easy. |
| zorgling2508-11-07, 01:41 PM | Next, you'll make a new Druid on the logic that the Druid/Planar Shepherd is way better than the normal Druid. Or a Psion on the logic that it's not as good as the Pun Pun build. There's an extremely easy way to reduce PrCing, if you actually care. Make the overpowered PrCs lose something. Easy. Isn't the current incarnation of Pun Pun a Wizard/Master of Many Forms? |
| OneWinged4ngel08-11-07, 01:45 PM | Isn't the current incarnation of Pun Pun a Wizard/Master of Many Forms? He'll use that as an argument as to why the Psion needs to be far, far more powerful. "They'd rather use a Wizard/Master of Many Forms! Oh! Woe is the Psion!" Actually, since the new Pun Pun build is level 1, and can be done with just about any class, he could even use his twisted arguments to claim that *every* class needs to have Real Ultimate Power at level 1. |
| zorgling2508-11-07, 02:51 PM | Actually, since the new Pun Pun build is level 1, and can be done with just about any class, he could even use his twisted arguments to claim that *every* class needs to have Real Ultimate Power at level 1. And thats where the Pun-Pun/CoDzilla Fallacy kicks in. |
| Meyer_William08-12-07, 02:03 PM | No, it *covers* playing without a cleric, because the Cleric is so downright good that tons of people think they *have* to play with one, and I was just saying that it's *not* something you *have* to do *all* the time to the point that some parties actually browbeat players into playing a class they're not interested in. It has nothing to do with people not liking the class, it has to do with them being *forced* to play a class *if* they don't. In fact, I gave tools for playing a cleric in that thread. I don't appreciate the false statements. It's a guide to healing as *any* class, and an attempt to dispel the common faulty thinking many people run into, which is "we can't heal without a Cleric or Druid." In fact, even if it *were* a thread wholly about *not* playing with a Cleric or Druid, that would be indicative of the Cleric and Druid being *so powerful* that the game is far more challenging without them, which only serves to greatly hurt your already horrifically bad argument, which is "The Cleric can be made even more overpowered than he already is, so I'm going to try to make him as powerful as those completely overpowered things, and allow him to combo with those overpowered things to become even more overpowered! Yaaay!" I didn't consider it a false statement, as your thread is entitled "A Player's Guide to Healing (And, why you will be Just Fine without a Cleric to heal)" The guide show many ways (both cleric-y and non-cleric-y) to heal ... HOWEVER This thread was opened as a way to gauge community opinion on fighters -- I took most of the relevant arguments from the anti-fighter side, and applied them to clerics. "Dead levels", "Lack of skill points", "Lack of out-of-combat actions", "PrC as fast as possible out of it", "Dip-worthy only", "Why take past a certain point" etc ... It is interesting the feedback I got from this thread ... Dead Levels ... apparently are not a problem for clerics -- though they are for fighter -- and by dead levels, I mean the WOTC terminology (that article is ignored by most people however). Lack of skill points ... apparently not a problem for clerics -- even though they have to spend their points on concentration, knowledge religion (or spellcraft or whatnot) ... leaving most none to spend. Lack of out-of-combat actions ... apparently not a problem for clerics ... PrC/Dipworthy/Why take past a certain point -- got me suggestions for nerfing all +1 CL PrCs out there for balance ... Sorry all -- not trying to troll -- just wanted to clear this up -- and hopefully this thread can die off now ... |
| zorgling2508-12-07, 02:41 PM | You missed one thing that gives a Cleric the edge though: Cleric abilities scale by level (most spells inherently do), Fighter feats generally don't. |
| OneWinged4ngel08-12-07, 03:33 PM | "Dead levels" Clerics don't have ANY dead levels. We explained this to you. Full spellcaster levels are about as full as levels get. You can't even easily count the number of new special abilities clerics gain access to when they learn a new level of spells. "Lack of skill points" They sure do, which is annoying. Then again, they can give extreme boosts to any skill they want via various spells, like Divine Insight. "Lack of out-of-combat actions" Any given cleric has dozens of out of combat options. "Dip-worthy only" The Cleric is not dip-worthy only. He can be a powerful class right up to 20th level. The Fighter, on the other hand, does not have the same luxury. Yes, there are overpowered PrCs that make the Cleric even better. No, that doesn't mean the Cleric isn't ridiculously amazing without them. Also, it's funny how you actually ignored a lot of the core of the Fighter arguments. In point of fact, you could have 10 dead levels and be ridiculously powerful because you got a couple of ridiculous abilities. That has nothing at all to do with power, it has to do with quality of class design. Dead Levels ... apparently are not a problem for clerics -- though they are for fighter -- and by dead levels, I mean the WOTC terminology (that article is ignored by most people however). By a *practical* definition (lack of abilities gained at new levels) then Clerics have no dead levels. They in fact have some of the fullest levels in the game, because they gain a limitless number of new abilities every time they gain a new spell level due to their uncapped spells known. Lack of skill points ... apparently not a problem for clerics -- even though they have to spend their points on concentration, knowledge religion (or spellcraft or whatnot) ... leaving most none to spend. Not a problem when a second level spell can give you +15 to any skill check as an immediate action. And that's not even mentioning all the other stuff they can do. Lack of out-of-combat actions ... apparently not a problem for clerics ... Of course, any given cleric should have dozens of these handy. PrC/Dipworthy/Why take past a certain point -- got me suggestions for nerfing all +1 CL PrCs out there for balance ... Again, having an overpowered PrC doesn't make its base class underpowered. Otherwise the Planar Shepherd would make the mighty Druid into a panzy that was totally not viable in any game. That logic is just... utter fail. Sorry all -- not trying to troll -- You do it without trying? Seriously though, I think Seerow's "test" was better. He took a Fighter 20 build from the CharOp boards, changed all the names of stuff, posted it, and got the "Fighters are fine!" people saying it was underpowered without realizing it was actually a decently optimized fighter under a different name, which was actually funny. Yours didn't really cover anything that wasn't completely obvious. It's not even funny. Yours didn't actually even cover the main points of the "fighters suck" arguments. Namely, that fighters don't scale up well (Clerics most certainly do), and Fighters aren't versatile in play (Clerics can cast every cleric spell... hard to be more versatile than that). |
| true_shinken01-27-08, 08:52 PM | Man, I'm really happy this thing is not locked yet. I mean, it surely will, but posting here makes me happy since Lightning Warrior was locked before I could post there. So sad. To put it simply, like everyone sad before me: you fail. Clerics are already extremely powerful and you made them more. Drill this into your head, you're wrong and period. |
| Divisionbyzer001-28-08, 03:12 AM | So the guy who goes off to the military and trains his body for years to become a fighter ends up being on par in terms of physical prowess with the guy who goes off to the clergy. This makes no sense to me. Cleric should not have warrior hit dice or BAB. If anything they should have less hit dice. I could see the four skill points but not most of the other stuff. But this has probably already been stated on the prior 3 pages. |
| dead_radish01-28-08, 09:53 AM | So the guy who goes off to the military and trains his body for years to become a fighter ends up being on par in terms of physical prowess with the guy who goes off to the clergy. This makes no sense to me. Cleric should not have warrior hit dice or BAB. If anything they should have less hit dice. I could see the four skill points but not most of the other stuff. But this has probably already been stated on the prior 3 pages. Well, depending on the clergy, it's entirely possible that he does just as much martial training as the military guy. There's probably about an equivalent amount of non-martial stuff in a large military as there is in a martial-focused religion. Possibly even more, depending on the military. You might spend 75% of your time on guard duty, watching a room no one ever enters, when the cleric is being told that his god will only love him if he is in prime physical shape and can kill anything that opposes his god's will.... |
| The_Wild_King02-05-08, 12:02 AM | You might spend 75% of your time on guard duty, watching a room no one ever enters, when the cleric is being told that his god will only love him if he is in prime physical shape and can kill anything that opposes his god's will.... Heh, I just got this great picture in my mind of a bodybuilder screaming "JESUS LOVES ME!" every time he does a rep |
| Meyer_William02-05-08, 09:21 AM | Man, I'm really happy this thing is not locked yet. I mean, it surely will, but posting here makes me happy since Lightning Warrior was locked before I could post there. So sad. Heh, I forgot about this thread ... thanks for unearthing it for me. And glad I could help. To put it simply, like everyone sad before me: you fail. Clerics are already extremely powerful and you made them more. Drill this into your head, you're wrong and period. I am glad you kept an open mind about this. Now, as I asked other people to do, can you point out to me where I messed up? Good BAB? From what I heard/read, all clerics already have this and more from that one spell (which also grants extra hps). Good Fort/Will? That is normal? Abilities? Most of them are bleh, note: the quickened/persist allow you to PREPARE a quickened/persistant spell, which takes up the normal slot -- so ... not seeing this as terribly uber, especially since most/all clerics are DMM persist? Compare this cleric ... to a RSoP build ... possibly dipping into Contemplative? then get back to me please. Oh, also, this was a mostly-humorous version of the cleric. |
| The_Wild_King02-05-08, 09:25 AM | you just added a bunch of abilities for no reason. The point of using a spell on things like divine power is that you have to use a spell on them. Giving the benefits for free gives clerics more spells |
| MoltenDm02-08-08, 03:11 AM | wow..I use clerics 90% of the time and not once thought it was below another class..amazing If its broken fix it NICE..that would have been a nice title for this What bothers me is all these serious players telling you just how wrong you are and you not getting the point, you said in your first page that it was still too early to judge if every person thinks you're wrong..HOW ABOUT NOW?? This thread should have gotten 0 replys Imho |