Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jennibert 12-14-05, 02:05 PM	For my last campaign, I created a LN cleric of a LN deity who, for roleplaying reasons, spontaneous cast inflict spells. She has been working towards becoming good. When that happens, will she suddenly start spontaneous casting cures instead? The class description says that neutral clerics of neutral deities can choose whether they're more proficient in positive or negative energy, and that after having chosen, this cannot be changed. However, it also says that good clerics of neutral deities always spotaneous cast cure spells/turn undead. Which rule supercedes the other? For my part, I tend to favor that she'll just be a good cleric who spontaneous casts inflicts (or would if she ever actually used the ability....). I just like the idea, especially for her.... Thanks for any advice :)
jennibert 12-15-05, 09:52 AM	Anyone? Thoughts? Please? Is there a better forum for this? Please let me know...
Mercurius 12-15-05, 02:01 PM	Unfortunately, I'm not really sure, myself. So I'll just lend a helping :bump:
Tempest Stormwind 12-15-05, 02:03 PM	As written, it cannot be changed, much like a cleric's domain choices should he change faith. Personally, I would rule that if you change alignments or deities, the usual "perform a quest, accept atonement, change things around, and move on" approach would work. If your character becomes good, she cannot cast Inflict spells spontaneously. Under this approach, an Atonement spell from the appropriate source would correct that. Atonement can already allow clerics to change faiths -- including, presumably, domains to reflect their new deity (I doubt a Peloran convert would want the Death domain anymore, for instance). Why wouldn't it also allow spontaneous casting changes?
Tony Vargas 12-15-05, 03:16 PM	For my last campaign, I created a LN cleric of a LN deity who, for roleplaying reasons, spontaneous cast inflict spells. She has been working towards becoming good. When that happens, will she suddenly start spontaneous casting cures instead? Perhaps, though it might make sense, as part of the shift to good, for her to stop channelling negative energy (inflicts & rebuking undead) for some time (maybe a level) prior to the final change from N to G. Not that she couldn't use inflicts in that period, or use them after becoming good - just refraining from using them spontaneously, which requires channelling negative energy. Then, once she's turned good, she can begin channelling positive energy. That's what seems /reasonable/ to me - how I'd probably do it, were I your DM. It's primarily an RP/character-development issue. The class description says that neutral clerics of neutral deities can choose whether they're more proficient in positive or negative energy, and that after having chosen, this cannot be changed. However, it also says that good clerics of neutral deities always spotaneous cast cure spells/turn undead. Which rule supercedes the other? 'Always' seems pretty clear to me - once you're good, you no longer have a choice. You haven't changed you choice, you've lost it. The other possible ruling would be that you become a good cleric who can't cast spontaneously at all - because you chose to channel negative when you were nuetral, and now can only channel positive, so you can do neither. Doesn't sound right to me, but I guess it's the other alternative. As Tempest mentioned, Atonment could fix that problem.
Quirriff 12-15-05, 06:18 PM	For my last campaign, I created a LN cleric of a LN deity who, for roleplaying reasons, spontaneous cast inflict spells. She has been working towards becoming good. When that happens, will she suddenly start spontaneous casting cures instead? The class description says that neutral clerics of neutral deities can choose whether they're more proficient in positive or negative energy, and that after having chosen, this cannot be changed. However, it also says that good clerics of neutral deities always spotaneous cast cure spells/turn undead. Which rule supercedes the other? For my part, I tend to favor that she'll just be a good cleric who spontaneous casts inflicts (or would if she ever actually used the ability....). I just like the idea, especially for her.... Thanks for any advice :) Well I personally think that's good, I mean I don't benilieve in this. Rebukes Undead and Turns undead are effectivly scaring the undead into doing what you command (In the case of turning running away). Inflict spells for a diety of death are more characteristic, even if the god is good. So I agree with youy 100%. Being more proficient in positive and negative energies is just crap. I mean evil clerics should be able to turn undead if they want to.
Father Dale 12-15-05, 06:19 PM	I'd agree that once you turn good you would not be able to spontaneously cast inflict spells. The reason is that spontaneously casting inflict spells requires channelling negative energy, and channeling negative energy is generally speaking an evil act. Since your deity is N on the G-N-E axis, he/she probably won't have any problems with an alignment shift from N to G. I would see no RP reason why the deity would deny you the ability to sponateously cast cure (or even inflict) spells because of such a shift. Because, remember, that power comes from the deity, so its realy all in her/his court. You could certainly cast all the inflict spells you like...that in itself isn't evil. But channelling negative energy is, and should probably lead to a new alignment shift....back to Neutral. It would be along the lines of a good cleric creating undead or casting evil spells. This would also apply to turning/rebuking. Its an evil act to channel negative energy to rebuke undead, so a good cleric realy shouldn't be able to do it. Thus I think you would start turning undead rather than rebuking them. Also note that there is a feat that allows you to spontaneously cast inflict spells so long as they are on your spell list. However, the prereq is that you be of non-good alignment, so a good cleric doesn't have that option. Other than that the only way I see for a good cleric to spontaneously cast inflict spells would be through having the Destruction Domain (which has several of the inflict spells as domain spells) and the Domain Spontaneity feat (complete divine). That would allow you to use a turning attempt to spontaneously cast an appropriate inflict spell from the domain list. Hey that would actually be pretty cool, because a cleric with that could spontaneously cast harm and disintigrate! Destruction just so happens to be a domain of the LN deity St. Cuthbert. The only other LN deity in the PHB is Wee Jas, and her domains (Death and Magic) are just as good if not better for Domain Spontaneity.
jennibert 12-15-05, 08:42 PM	Thanks for the advice, everyone! I guess she will probably start spontaneous casting cures, which means I wasted a feat (since she has Spontaneous Healer from Complete Divine). Oh well. It also means she doesn't have to waste spell slots preparing cure spells...and it's not like she actually ever used her inflict spells.... My cleric and I thank you all for the great advice! :)
Jovknee 12-15-05, 11:30 PM	My guess is that once you become good, you wouldn't be able to spontaneously cast any spells (with the exception of the one's from your feat, which I think only gives you so many per day), until you receive an Atonement spell.
Quirriff 12-15-05, 11:51 PM	She's switching allignment not dieties. She's still going to be Lawful Good, LN gods usually accept LN, LE and LG clerics.
Jovknee 12-15-05, 11:59 PM	She's switching allignment not dieties. She's still going to be Lawful Good, LN gods usually accept LN, LE and LG clerics. I realize that, and I wouldn't make it hard for her to recieve the atonement. However it does state in the book that once you make the choice about proficiency with either positive or negative energy, that it can not be changed. However it also says good clerics do positive and evil do negative. So her diety isn't upset with her change, and would allow the spell to be cast on her, just I would say she needs to find someone to do it. Which could be hard if you are on the 210th level of hell per se.