Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RiTz21 12-18-04, 11:46 AM	Greetings, The PHB says (P.159) that a Cleric can turn undead a number of times equal to 3+the Charisma modifier WHAT happends if the charisma modifier is -3, or -4 !? Does it mean that the cleric cannot turn ? Does the cleric has a 'minimum' turning times per day of 1 ? Any rules refer to this situation ? thanks ! RiTz21
Ibbins 12-18-04, 11:57 AM	it doesnt specify, so just go with what you prefer. I myself would deny the turning ability to any paladin or cleric with a charisma score that low. Their turning effect would be terrible anyway, so it wouldnt make much difference. Also, i see charisma as the ability to channel or manipulate raw power, i.e., the sorceror, so a dismal cha score should deny the ability, just as a sorc with charisma less than 10 cant cast spells at all.
Shadowfax7 12-18-04, 01:00 PM	Does the cleric has a 'minimum' turning times per day of 1 ? Any rules refer to this situation ? There is no minimum turning times per day. A Cleric with a -3 modifier (or more) from CHA can't Turn Undead. However, it seems that if the feat, Extra Turning, was taken it could make up for that by adding 4 attempts each time the feat is taken. Note that in the absence of a rule stating that there is a minimum of 1 (like there is for HPs) there is no minimum of 1. :)
gbnogkfs 12-23-04, 09:31 AM	Let's say a cleric with CHA 3, so that the modifier is -4, takes Extra Turning: does they have 3 or 4 turning attempts (just curious about interpretations... :P )?
Bartleby_GoC 12-23-04, 11:41 AM	If the math results in a value of zero or less, no turning. The cleric simply does not have enough force of personality to impress even the slightest of undead. Extra Turning implies a knack for dealing with undead (maybe there's a secret 'angry face' or something that just scares the willies out of them, I dunno...). This would allow a low-Cha cleric to get some ability, but there still has to be something there to augment. As a side note, is there a (core) counter to Eagle's Splendor? A Necromancer would get great use out of a Charisma damaging spell. Smack down those clerics and paladins so they can't hurt the army of undead you just spent months raising. Plus, it will likely mess with the pally's saves too. Bartleby
Kaardomos 12-23-04, 01:29 PM	As a side note, is there a (core) counter to Eagle's Splendor? A Necromancer would get great use out of a Charisma damaging spell. Smack down those clerics and paladins so they can't hurt the army of undead you just spent months raising. Plus, it will likely mess with the pally's saves too. Touch of idiocity would work: Touch of Idiocy Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting] Level: Sor/Wiz 2 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Living creature touched Duration: 10 min./level Saving Throw: No Spell Resistance: Yes With a touch, you reduce the target’s mental faculties. Your successful melee touch attack applies a 1d6 penalty to the target’s Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. This penalty can’t reduce any of these scores below 1. This spell’s effect may make it impossible for the target to cast some or all of its spells, if the requisite ability score drops below the minimum required to cast spells of that level. Bestow curse would also work(-6 penalty) and Feeblemind reduces cha(and int) to 1.
Shadowfax7 12-23-04, 08:04 PM	Let's say a cleric with CHA 3, so that the modifier is -4, takes Extra Turning: does they have 3 or 4 turning attempts (just curious about interpretations... :P )? Cleric w/CHA 3 and the Extra Turning feat = 3 turning attempts/day.