Cleric turning useless [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cleric turning useless [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
6457890
09-06-05, 02:08 PM The cleric's turn undead ability becomes useless at higher levels because of the gap in the HD progression of the undead compared to the cleric's. Unless you think that planning a full scale assault against a Great wyrm dragon with twenty 1-HD skeletons is sheer brilliance...

Another thing: you need to be level 20 AND have enough charisma to make the check for a +4 and have improved turning to affect a creature like the nightcrawler with 25-hd, a Cr 16 btw. Meaning that he'll be immune to your turning most of the time on non-epic levels.

Please post your opinions and ideas.
CaoSlayer
09-06-05, 02:11 PM I hate that they maded turn undead useful with divine metamagic and those divine shield-power and such... if cleric werent strong already.
CzarGarrett
09-06-05, 02:12 PM By the time you hit the high levels where turning is difficult, you have enough spells (and your allies are powerful enough) to handle the situation.

When you're at lower levels, turning is incredibly useful to turn that horde of 15 skeletons attacking into a managable handful for a low level party.

And with Complete Divine, there's several feats that you can take that allow you to use your turning ability for other abilities.
Terraneaux
09-06-05, 03:42 PM Extrapolating from existing items, such as the Circlet of Persuasion, an item that grants a bonus on all charisma-based checks, including turning checks, should cost (bonus^2)x500 gp.

So i think that's 50,000 for a +10 to all charisma based checks. Certainly affordable for a 20th level character, and definitely useful.
Journeyman Samwise
09-06-05, 03:42 PM The feats in Complete Divine that augment Turning ability (aside from Divine feats, which are so rediculously broken that the Munchkin nation almost sued for putting them wholeheartedly out of work) make it so that, even at high levels, Clerics can turn just about anything you can throw at them. Improved Turning, Empowered Turning, and the like.
Salla
09-06-05, 04:36 PM Also in Complete Divine is an alternate turning system that simply deals damage to Undead, rather than the remarkably swingy 'do they run or ignore me' system in the PHB. I recommend that.
Alvoros Darkleaf
09-06-05, 05:37 PM 5 Ranks in Knowledge (Religion) = +2 on all turn checks!

Basically, this is a freebee.
Nuntius128
09-06-05, 05:52 PM I hate that they maded turn undead useful with divine metamagic and those divine shield-power and such... if cleric werent strong already.

Yeah. They really only serve to make Paaladin's turning actually useful. I don't think Clerics needed the boost, either.
Shaken, not Stunned
09-06-05, 06:10 PM How often do you play at level 16+?

Do you play at this level with out playing through at lease 13 of the levels prior?

If you said no, then what (...) are you complaining about? Classes have abilties more and less useful at various stages in their progression. This is why you don't die at level one and don't always win at level 20 (or the other way around).

If you said yes, understand you are in the minority and will need to house rule the situation. (....) Someone already suggested the UA varient (I think this book is gold, BTW).

As has already been pointed out, your TU is pretty K-A if you invest a few feats in it. Some are from CD, though one is even in the SRD (under dieties and demigods, I believe).
Super_Demolition_Christ
09-06-05, 06:26 PM plus, I think one of the best parts of turning is not

"OMG, thats a big funk vampire dragon! Ok Mr. Cleric, Turn it or something"
"uh.....ok."

but

"Dammit, we dont have time to deal with all these zombies. They are week as hell, but there has got to be at least 30 of them"
"Just leave it to me"*Cleric focuses, zombies explode*
Lilt
09-06-05, 06:40 PM At 20th level, a character who actually spends some money on items to increase their turn undead ability is going to be able to turn some very powerful undead.

At ECL16, a simple Phylactery of Undead Turning with a Circlet of Persuasion, the Improved Turning feat, and the Sun domain power could see you destroying a Nightcrawler (CR18) with a roll of a 12-13 on the turning check. This is as a standard action and offers no save or spell resistance. You'd be destroying a CR16 nightcrawler with no need to roll. There are other turn undead boosting items and abilities which further boost your undead turning so that you wouldn't even need to roll to destroy the nightcrawler, like Sacred armor from DotF.

Maths:
+4 to +5 charisma bonus (includes a +4 or +6 item)
+2 from Knowledge religion
+3 from Circlet
+9 to +10 on turning check

How is that useless?
Krug_the_smasher
09-06-05, 08:59 PM plus, I think one of the best parts of turning is not

"OMG, thats a big funk vampire dragon! Ok Mr. Cleric, Turn it or something"
"uh.....ok."

but

"Dammit, we dont have time to deal with all these zombies. They are week as hell, but there has got to be at least 30 of them"
"Just leave it to me"*Cleric focuses, zombies explode*

this is my thinking rite down to the skeletal remains of the undead that just got exploderated by the cleric. the turn undead is for the little stuff...not the big @ss dracolich that is killing you. it will take him down a couple HD, but not kill him so it is pointless.
slade_caizer
09-06-05, 09:15 PM I too have always thought of Undead Turning to be more of a way to get rid of pests. The many feats that let you burn attempts for something kick-ass just make the ability that much sweeter.

Divine Might and Divine Metamagic are of course the most famous of late, but I'm partial to Profane Life Leech. :D
runestar
09-07-05, 12:07 AM There are plenty of ways to boost your turning powers as you lv, so I doubt it will be entirely useless. If people can design builds designed to outright destroy undead twice their HD with a single turn, I fail to see how it can be useless just because undead HD outstrips your base character lv.
6457890
09-07-05, 11:59 AM If i am not mistaken, and i think not, the turning check bonuses dont really affect the hd you can affect above Clerics level +4, that means that unless you house rule a progression for it, the cleric levels is gonna be +4 at max and a +1 for improved turning thats a total of +5, not enough at level 16 to affect a 25-hd nightcrawler.

If we house rule it is possible, but hard as hell.

You need at least Improved, Empowered and Heightened Turning, an excellent charisma and luck. I first used a cleric of 18th level with +10 charisma, the circlet, and the knowledge religion, and the above feats. We are purely using average(10-11) in our rolls. In the turning check we get a 10 +9(the desecrating aura of the nightcrawler has a -6), that is 19, enough for a +3 cleric level. We get 21hd plus a +1 for Improved Turning, 22hd. We use heighten in conjunction with empowered. We have 2d6 +19 +10 + 50%, an average of 54, we use 9 of that to get the turning to affect it and we have enough damage. We have awed the nightcrawler. (Can someone state what does awe do, i am kinda fighting with my brother bout it). We need only heighten and improved, getting a 36 in damage, using 9 points we still have enough to awe it. But that is using the feats that clerics do not have to improve an ability that should not have to use feats to make it usefull, a barbarians rage is very usefull by itself, and even more if we add feats that improve it.

Comments please, and for the record, my brother wrotte this.
Lotus Crane
09-07-05, 12:08 PM It's true that most feats and magic items only add a bonus to your turning check, but there are a few that add directly to your cleric level for the purposes of determining the strongest undead you can affect. Between feats/items that add to your cleric level, those that add a bonus to your turning check, and those that destroy undead that would only normally be turned, it's entirely viable for the right cleric build to kill several undead of their CR or higher simultaneously without much effort.
6457890
09-07-05, 12:12 PM Which items are those? Havent seen them.
moogle001
10-15-06, 01:35 AM It has also been my experience that turning undead becomes nigh impossible at higher levels, especially when the DM doesn't let players shop through the DMG for magic items and many divine PrCs don't offer turning ability. I propose this variant:

Improved Turning: This feat increases your level for turning as normal. In addition, you may extend the turning to take an entire round in order to gain an additional two level increase to your turning ability. You may continue to do this, gaining a cumulative increase to your turning level for each round spent on the turn attempt. You may not take any other actions during this time but stand in prayer and meditation. Furthermore, undead creatures can feel the gathering divine energy emanating from you and will almost certainly attempt to stop you. If attacked or affected by a spell you must make a Concentration check to avoid botching the attempt completely.

Perhaps some sort of limit would be appropriate, but overall feedback is welcome.
oMni2k5
10-15-06, 01:44 AM There's a turning variant in Complete Divine. Works like this: 1d6/cleric level damage to all undead within 60' of the cleric, will save for half damage, turn resistance acts as damage reduction versus it.
copper_wyrmling
10-15-06, 02:00 AM I mostly play Living Greyhawk, so I'm only really familiar with the sources allowed in that campaign. However, there are several items I've encountered that either boost a cleric's effective level for turning, or reduce the effective hit dice of undead in the area (acting like negative turn resistance).

Items that boost effective level for turning:
- Sacred armor / shield enhancement, +2 (Arms and Equipment Guide)
- Phylactery of Undead Turning, +4 (DMG)

Items that lower undead effective hit dice:
- Lyre of the Restful Soul, -4 (Libris Mortis)
- Rod of Defiance, -4 (Libris Mortis)

I'm sure people with more books than me can add to the list ;)
Lina_Inverse
10-15-06, 03:09 AM Change hitdice to challenge rateing.

This should be done for ALOT of things.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
6457890 09-06-05, 02:08 PM	The cleric's turn undead ability becomes useless at higher levels because of the gap in the HD progression of the undead compared to the cleric's. Unless you think that planning a full scale assault against a Great wyrm dragon with twenty 1-HD skeletons is sheer brilliance... Another thing: you need to be level 20 AND have enough charisma to make the check for a +4 and have improved turning to affect a creature like the nightcrawler with 25-hd, a Cr 16 btw. Meaning that he'll be immune to your turning most of the time on non-epic levels. Please post your opinions and ideas.
CaoSlayer 09-06-05, 02:11 PM	I hate that they maded turn undead useful with divine metamagic and those divine shield-power and such... if cleric werent strong already.
CzarGarrett 09-06-05, 02:12 PM	By the time you hit the high levels where turning is difficult, you have enough spells (and your allies are powerful enough) to handle the situation. When you're at lower levels, turning is incredibly useful to turn that horde of 15 skeletons attacking into a managable handful for a low level party. And with Complete Divine, there's several feats that you can take that allow you to use your turning ability for other abilities.
Terraneaux 09-06-05, 03:42 PM	Extrapolating from existing items, such as the Circlet of Persuasion, an item that grants a bonus on all charisma-based checks, including turning checks, should cost (bonus^2)x500 gp. So i think that's 50,000 for a +10 to all charisma based checks. Certainly affordable for a 20th level character, and definitely useful.
Journeyman Samwise 09-06-05, 03:42 PM	The feats in Complete Divine that augment Turning ability (aside from Divine feats, which are so rediculously broken that the Munchkin nation almost sued for putting them wholeheartedly out of work) make it so that, even at high levels, Clerics can turn just about anything you can throw at them. Improved Turning, Empowered Turning, and the like.
Salla 09-06-05, 04:36 PM	Also in Complete Divine is an alternate turning system that simply deals damage to Undead, rather than the remarkably swingy 'do they run or ignore me' system in the PHB. I recommend that.
Alvoros Darkleaf 09-06-05, 05:37 PM	5 Ranks in Knowledge (Religion) = +2 on all turn checks! Basically, this is a freebee.
Nuntius128 09-06-05, 05:52 PM	I hate that they maded turn undead useful with divine metamagic and those divine shield-power and such... if cleric werent strong already. Yeah. They really only serve to make Paaladin's turning actually useful. I don't think Clerics needed the boost, either.
Shaken, not Stunned 09-06-05, 06:10 PM	How often do you play at level 16+? Do you play at this level with out playing through at lease 13 of the levels prior? If you said no, then what (...) are you complaining about? Classes have abilties more and less useful at various stages in their progression. This is why you don't die at level one and don't always win at level 20 (or the other way around). If you said yes, understand you are in the minority and will need to house rule the situation. (....) Someone already suggested the UA varient (I think this book is gold, BTW). As has already been pointed out, your TU is pretty K-A if you invest a few feats in it. Some are from CD, though one is even in the SRD (under dieties and demigods, I believe).
Super_Demolition_Christ 09-06-05, 06:26 PM	plus, I think one of the best parts of turning is not "OMG, thats a big funk vampire dragon! Ok Mr. Cleric, Turn it or something" "uh.....ok." but "Dammit, we dont have time to deal with all these zombies. They are week as hell, but there has got to be at least 30 of them" "Just leave it to me"Cleric focuses, zombies explode
Lilt 09-06-05, 06:40 PM	At 20th level, a character who actually spends some money on items to increase their turn undead ability is going to be able to turn some very powerful undead. At ECL16, a simple Phylactery of Undead Turning with a Circlet of Persuasion, the Improved Turning feat, and the Sun domain power could see you destroying a Nightcrawler (CR18) with a roll of a 12-13 on the turning check. This is as a standard action and offers no save or spell resistance. You'd be destroying a CR16 nightcrawler with no need to roll. There are other turn undead boosting items and abilities which further boost your undead turning so that you wouldn't even need to roll to destroy the nightcrawler, like Sacred armor from DotF. Maths: +4 to +5 charisma bonus (includes a +4 or +6 item) +2 from Knowledge religion +3 from Circlet +9 to +10 on turning check How is that useless?
Krug_the_smasher 09-06-05, 08:59 PM	plus, I think one of the best parts of turning is not "OMG, thats a big funk vampire dragon! Ok Mr. Cleric, Turn it or something" "uh.....ok." but "Dammit, we dont have time to deal with all these zombies. They are week as hell, but there has got to be at least 30 of them" "Just leave it to me"Cleric focuses, zombies explode this is my thinking rite down to the skeletal remains of the undead that just got exploderated by the cleric. the turn undead is for the little stuff...not the big @ss dracolich that is killing you. it will take him down a couple HD, but not kill him so it is pointless.
slade_caizer 09-06-05, 09:15 PM	I too have always thought of Undead Turning to be more of a way to get rid of pests. The many feats that let you burn attempts for something kick-ass just make the ability that much sweeter. Divine Might and Divine Metamagic are of course the most famous of late, but I'm partial to Profane Life Leech. :D
runestar 09-07-05, 12:07 AM	There are plenty of ways to boost your turning powers as you lv, so I doubt it will be entirely useless. If people can design builds designed to outright destroy undead twice their HD with a single turn, I fail to see how it can be useless just because undead HD outstrips your base character lv.
6457890 09-07-05, 11:59 AM	If i am not mistaken, and i think not, the turning check bonuses dont really affect the hd you can affect above Clerics level +4, that means that unless you house rule a progression for it, the cleric levels is gonna be +4 at max and a +1 for improved turning thats a total of +5, not enough at level 16 to affect a 25-hd nightcrawler. If we house rule it is possible, but hard as hell. You need at least Improved, Empowered and Heightened Turning, an excellent charisma and luck. I first used a cleric of 18th level with +10 charisma, the circlet, and the knowledge religion, and the above feats. We are purely using average(10-11) in our rolls. In the turning check we get a 10 +9(the desecrating aura of the nightcrawler has a -6), that is 19, enough for a +3 cleric level. We get 21hd plus a +1 for Improved Turning, 22hd. We use heighten in conjunction with empowered. We have 2d6 +19 +10 + 50%, an average of 54, we use 9 of that to get the turning to affect it and we have enough damage. We have awed the nightcrawler. (Can someone state what does awe do, i am kinda fighting with my brother bout it). We need only heighten and improved, getting a 36 in damage, using 9 points we still have enough to awe it. But that is using the feats that clerics do not have to improve an ability that should not have to use feats to make it usefull, a barbarians rage is very usefull by itself, and even more if we add feats that improve it. Comments please, and for the record, my brother wrotte this.
Lotus Crane 09-07-05, 12:08 PM	It's true that most feats and magic items only add a bonus to your turning check, but there are a few that add directly to your cleric level for the purposes of determining the strongest undead you can affect. Between feats/items that add to your cleric level, those that add a bonus to your turning check, and those that destroy undead that would only normally be turned, it's entirely viable for the right cleric build to kill several undead of their CR or higher simultaneously without much effort.
6457890 09-07-05, 12:12 PM	Which items are those? Havent seen them.
moogle001 10-15-06, 01:35 AM	It has also been my experience that turning undead becomes nigh impossible at higher levels, especially when the DM doesn't let players shop through the DMG for magic items and many divine PrCs don't offer turning ability. I propose this variant: Improved Turning: This feat increases your level for turning as normal. In addition, you may extend the turning to take an entire round in order to gain an additional two level increase to your turning ability. You may continue to do this, gaining a cumulative increase to your turning level for each round spent on the turn attempt. You may not take any other actions during this time but stand in prayer and meditation. Furthermore, undead creatures can feel the gathering divine energy emanating from you and will almost certainly attempt to stop you. If attacked or affected by a spell you must make a Concentration check to avoid botching the attempt completely. Perhaps some sort of limit would be appropriate, but overall feedback is welcome.
oMni2k5 10-15-06, 01:44 AM	There's a turning variant in Complete Divine. Works like this: 1d6/cleric level damage to all undead within 60' of the cleric, will save for half damage, turn resistance acts as damage reduction versus it.
copper_wyrmling 10-15-06, 02:00 AM	I mostly play Living Greyhawk, so I'm only really familiar with the sources allowed in that campaign. However, there are several items I've encountered that either boost a cleric's effective level for turning, or reduce the effective hit dice of undead in the area (acting like negative turn resistance). Items that boost effective level for turning: - Sacred armor / shield enhancement, +2 (Arms and Equipment Guide) - Phylactery of Undead Turning, +4 (DMG) Items that lower undead effective hit dice: - Lyre of the Restful Soul, -4 (Libris Mortis) - Rod of Defiance, -4 (Libris Mortis) I'm sure people with more books than me can add to the list ;)
Lina_Inverse 10-15-06, 03:09 AM	Change hitdice to challenge rateing. This should be done for ALOT of things.