Post/Author/DateTime	Post
OzyBurrfoot 01-13-08, 09:22 AM	So what I'm looking to do is make a less CoDizilla styled cleric, without armor and without Turning & Domains. I've already discussed with my DM removing armor and shield prof. and replacing with a Monk's AC bonus (wisdom & level bonus), but I now need a trade off for Domain access and Turn undead. The idea is to make a less combaty cleric and more spell casting focused. I kind of like the Complete Mage idea of swaping one of the domains for the ability to counterspell, but its unclear as to wether you need to prep an action to do so like most counterspelling abilities do. If not, could you swap both domains so you could counterspell as an immediate action? For the Turning, I was thinking some kind of calming aura or something would be good, or boosting auras like Marshals or Dragon Shamans get. Any suggestions? EDIT: Another idea I had was to replace Turning & Domains with the following Paladin's class abilities: Detect Evil/Good, Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, Divine Health; but I dont know how those all balance against each other.
LoneFlame 01-13-08, 12:32 PM	Drop Turn Undead for this book variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#cleric). You could then replace the Domains with Detect(whatever you're going to smite) & a scaled version of Divine Grace(ie, Cha Mod to all saves up to cleric class up). Lay on Hands & Divine Health aren't needed, since Cleric has spells to take care off what those cover. EDIT: Exactly how exactly is trading Armor Proficiencies for Monk AC(which is Wisdom-based & applies to touch) balanced?
dman11235 01-13-08, 12:57 PM	Clerics without domains and turning are nothing more than Archivists. And if you think that is an improvement... Well, what you want is the variant called the Cloistered Cleric (http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm%23cleric). It actually has 3 domains, but domains are what define the cleric, and losing them would be like losing your face. It's just not you anymore. But it's not that powerful anyway, it the combo of domains and everything else. That turning variant might work though.
OzyBurrfoot 01-13-08, 03:17 PM	Well, like I said, I already worked out the armor issue with my DM and we're fine with that. As far as replacing Turn Undead with Smiting, well that completely goes against the theme of a non-combative cleric. You may consider the Domains a defining factor of Clerics, but they've always been an after thought to me. But to each their own.
dman11235 01-13-08, 06:01 PM	Well, doesn't that cloistered cleric variant give you exactly what you want? Even if you don't get rid of either turning or domains? Now, lets examine what a cleric is. First off, let's look at class features. They get turning, domains, and spontaneous cure spells. They also get spells and proficiencies. The later two are not really flavor inclined at all, so we can safely ignore them. That leaves the spontaneous cure, the turning and the domains. You propose taking away two of the bigger things, the turning and domain, while domain choice is a way of getting extreme variation between clerics and so is turning, due to divine feats. The spontaneous cure is something that gets forgotten every time because it's just there, it doesn't do much. Now let's look at a cleric from flavor's perspective. Basically, a cleric is a champion, a preacher, for a deity or a cause. This cause or god is what defines this cleric from that cleric, and is represented through domain choice, as I said earlier. Also, turning and spontaneous cure play a part in this variation between cleric, but not as much. That domain choice is saying "I'm a cleric of Pelor because I have the power of the sun and healing domains, while you, cleric of Nerull, have your evil and death domains." The conclusions I am trying to make are these: clerics are defined by their domains, taking that away will make it not a cleric anymore. Turning is also a defining part of being a cleric, if only for the channeling of positive or negative energies. If you get rid of them, you might as well play a devine casting spellcaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#spellcaster).
LoneFlame 01-13-08, 10:19 PM	The conclusions I am trying to make are these: clerics are defined by their domains, taking that away will make it not a cleric anymore. Turning is also a defining part of being a cleric, if only for the channeling of positive or negative energies. If you get rid of them, you might as well play a devine casting spellcaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#spellcaster). Hell, that would probably be better suited to the concept anyway. 9th lv spells, weak BAB, weak HP, no notable weapons/armor proficiencies, & no domains. Adjust the Hit Dice to whatever you want(up to a d8), limit the spell list to the Cleric's, & limit selectable class abilities to less melee orientated(optionally, you can sorta reverse engineer the Spontaneous Divine Caster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) variant to give prepared casting... if you want).
danielinthewolvesden 01-13-08, 10:40 PM	So what I'm looking to do is make a less CoDizilla styled cleric, without armor and without Turning & Domains. I've already discussed with my DM removing armor and shield prof. and replacing with a Monk's AC bonus (wisdom & level bonus), but I now need a trade off for Domain access and Turn undead. The idea is to make a less combaty cleric and more spell casting focused. For the Turning, I was thinking some kind of calming aura or something would be good, or boosting auras like Marshals or Dragon Shamans get. Any suggestions? . Play a Favoured Soul. Or an Archivist (without the Munchkin cheese). Or a Cloistered cleric from UA. Armour is not the problem (your solution is OK for flavour but it really will not hurt your A/C any, in fact if someone can cast Mage Armour on you, you will be better off!. Nor is Turning. And the Domains are what make a Cleric a Cleric of a specific diety. There are also plenty of Alternative Class Features in the racial books, PHII, Complete Mage, and Dungeon....(?) What you need to get rid of is Divine Metamagic, and certain self-buff spells. They are what make a cleric into a CoDzilla. Altho, in actuallity, that just plain does not happen in IRL D&D games- they are not all played at level 20, they rarely allow for unlimited self-buffing and in reality, the cleric has to act as Heal-bot for a large portion of combat.
OzyBurrfoot 01-19-08, 12:48 PM	Why is it that I ask for help on how to do something and all anyone seems to want to do is tell me how much I shouldnt do that? I know what I want to do and its to get rid of my domains and turn undead class features, I resent the idea that a class feature "defines" a class. As it is, I've decided to use the Divine Counterspell feature from Complete Mage, so that takes care of Turn Undead, I just need an idea for the domains, and please for the love of god dont tell me not to get rid of them!!!
LoneFlame 01-19-08, 01:39 PM	I resent the idea that a class feature "defines" a class. Sometimes that ends up being the case. Kinda like how most people are accustomed to the definitive Druid being a caster & shapeshifter with a pet. Domains are a primary part of the Cleric's. As such, it's hard to come up with a way to get rid of them. As said before, use another, but similar class if you want to take Domains out of Cleric. There isn't a book variant for getting rid of domains for a reason. If there was a variant for that, I would already have an insane cleric build that doesn't resemble a Cleric(I do that to classes I have variant compendiums for when I get really bored). However, if I were to drop domains, I'd probably to do something along the lines of creating a limited list of bonus feats that suit the intended class theme. The feats would probably follow the traditional, 1 at lv 1, followed by 1 at lv 5 & every 5th level afterwards. Unfortunately, I can't come up with any feats that suit the intended theme(especially since most cleric feats revolve around Turn Undead). So, I suppose, just give them Augment Healing(Complete Divine) if they're good, Augment Inflict(a homebrewed version of Augment Healing, but for evil clerics), or player's choice between the two if Neutral. Augment Healing is simple & scales, depending on what spells you're working with.
danielinthewolvesden 01-19-08, 01:44 PM	Why is it that I ask for help on how to do something and all anyone seems to want to do is tell me how much I shouldnt do that? I know what I want to do and its to get rid of my domains and turn undead class features, I resent the idea that a class feature "defines" a class. As it is, I've decided to use the Divine Counterspell feature from Complete Mage, so that takes care of Turn Undead, I just need an idea for the domains, and please for the love of god dont tell me not to get rid of them!!! Then, just don't play with them. If you don't like them that much, why do you need another power to make up for the fact you have dropped them?
archerpwr 01-19-08, 01:46 PM	the cleric has to act as Heal-bot for a large portion of combat. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=900334 http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=691564
kalstrand 01-19-08, 02:08 PM	Why is it that I ask for help on how to do something and all anyone seems to want to do is tell me how much I shouldnt do that? I know what I want to do and its to get rid of my domains and turn undead class features, I resent the idea that a class feature "defines" a class. As it is, I've decided to use the Divine Counterspell feature from Complete Mage, so that takes care of Turn Undead, I just need an idea for the domains, and please for the love of god dont tell me not to get rid of them!!! The reason is because you want to take a class and remove all its class abilities and replace them with something else. Exchanging a single class ability is one thing but when you throw out all of them its entirely different. What you really need to do if find a class that fits your role.
danielinthewolvesden 01-20-08, 01:58 AM	http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=900334 http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=691564 Fully and completely refuted.
archerpwr 01-20-08, 12:36 PM	Fully and completely refuted. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=900334 Really? You don't agree that it is more efficient to kill the enemy first and heal up later with wands of lesser vigor and healing belts?
dman11235 01-20-08, 12:48 PM	The reason is because you want to take a class and remove all its class abilities and replace them with something else. Exchanging a single class ability is one thing but when you throw out all of them its entirely different. What you really need to do if find a class that fits your role. +1. A classes class features define the class. If you were to, say, take a fighter, and change it to get rid of the feats, up the HD, up the skill points, add some class skills and change some around, add in the rage tree, uncanny dodge, DR, and everything else that a barbarian has, do you still have a fighter? No, you have a barbarian. Also, OzyBurrfoot, the idea you wish to create has already been done officially, and we showed you that. All you need is the spellcaster generic class and choose divine. Or play a cloistered cleric, that's probably closer to what you want, but it still has domains to say "I'm a cleric!".
LoneFlame 01-20-08, 01:18 PM	Not every extreme change variant(s) completely ruins a class. However, when you dramatically change a core feature, you risk changing up the a lot of the theme of the class. Sure, some variants can make for an interesting twist on a class, but if you apply too many, you do in fact turn it into a practically different class. For example, apply this variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druidVariant DruidicAvenger) & this one (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid) to Druid. Is it still a Druid? Hell no. Why? Because Wild Shape & Animal Companion are 2 of the 3 biggest class features of the Druid. Using both variants, the Druid then is about as much of a Druid as the Spirit Shaman(Complete Divine) is.
danielinthewolvesden 01-21-08, 12:42 AM	http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=900334 Really? You don't agree that it is more efficient to kill the enemy first and heal up later with wands of lesser vigor and healing belts? Nope, as wands of lesser vigor and healing belts can do nothing for a dead PC. Healing during battle is critical to keep the PC's alive. And, this was one of the main points in which the OP of those threads was refuted. Not to mention wands are a constant cash drain. Two wands and the tank can no longer get that +1 sword, which means he can not effectively get thru the DR. Of course, if your DM is Montgomery Haul, then sure.
navar100 01-21-08, 12:48 AM	Solution: play a cleric, as is, only don't keep casting Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might. Once in a while ok to give the dedicated warriors a break, just not every single combat. Don't take Divine Metamagic feat.
LoneFlame 01-21-08, 10:13 AM	Nope, as wands of lesser vigor and healing belts can do nothing for a dead PC. Healing during battle is critical to keep the PC's alive. [quoteTwo wands and the tank can no longer get that +1 sword, which means he can not effectively get thru the DR. Of course, if your DM is Montgomery Haul, then sure. Yes, because every monster & opponent in existence has that DR. But, seriously, the Healing Belt's useful at low lvs. It's a nice little thing to have. Sometimes the Cleric just simply can't get to someone in time. That's a fact of D&D. That aside, it's unreasonable to expect someone to just run around trying to bandage up everyone. After awhile, the rest of the party should be prepared to have a little self-reliance.
archerpwr 01-21-08, 05:40 PM	Nope, as wands of lesser vigor and healing belts can do nothing for a dead PC. Healing during battle is critical to keep the PC's alive. And, this was one of the main points in which the OP of those threads was refuted. Not to mention wands are a constant cash drain. Two wands and the tank can no longer get that +1 sword, which means he can not effectively get thru the DR. Of course, if your DM is Montgomery Haul, then sure. Orly? Killing the enemy is a less good idea than burning a spell slot to heal less than the mob damages in a hit? There are exactly two healing spells the cleric should be casting in combat: 1) CLW (only at level 1) 2) Heal (This one actually keeps the healing competitive with the damage being tossed around Possibly Useful: Heal, Mass (kind of underpowered compared to gate, but the AoE could be handy)
navar100 01-21-08, 08:35 PM	Orly? Killing the enemy is a less good idea than burning a spell slot to heal less than the mob damages in a hit? There are exactly two healing spells the cleric should be casting in combat: 1) CLW (only at level 1) 2) Heal (This one actually keeps the healing competitive with the damage being tossed around Possibly Useful: Heal, Mass (kind of underpowered compared to gate, but the AoE could be handy) Monsters have an annoying ability; it's called rolling a saving throw. If they make their save against the cleric's spell, they don't die or otherwise unable to act normally then kill the wounded party member on their turn. It's nice that CoDzilla cleric buffed up with Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might can dish out a lot of damage swinging his morninstar, possibly even having Power Attack, but that won't necessarily kill the monster during a full attack. Meanwhile, the monster on its turn attacks the wounded party members and kills him. The cleric doesn't always need to get the killing blow. Some clerics actually care about their party members. They don't want their party members to die. They'll keep their party members alive so that the party member in question can kill the monster. Every point of healing a cleric gives to a party member in combat is that many more hit points that party member has. Party members are not an expendable resource.
dman11235 01-21-08, 08:59 PM	Here's what my cleric of Pelor does: buff. And when I'm out of buffs for the party, I make pot-shots or heal.
danielinthewolvesden 01-21-08, 09:07 PM	Yes, because every monster & opponent in existence has that DR. But, seriously, the Healing Belt's useful at low lvs. It's a nice little thing to have.. True. Assuming you read a healing belt as usable by those that do not have Turning. But sure, any class that can weild a wand of clw should have something and the rest should have a potion up their sleeve- just in case. Any decent cleric should be able to outheal most monster's damage. Lesser Vigor and the area vigor spells are very nice. Mass CLW or any Mass cure spell is very useful, as is Close Wounds. Mass Cure spells have the add'l benefit of killing Undead.:cool: Augment Healing is nearly a must do Feat.
LoneFlame 01-21-08, 09:15 PM	Assuming you read a healing belt as usable by those that do not have Turning. It doesn't say anywhere in the description that it requires you to have Turning, so it doesn't.
archerpwr 01-21-08, 09:31 PM	Stuff You've completely ignored what I've said. All I've said is that clerics are not heal bots. Buffing the party and using preventative tactics is far better than being reactionary with inefficient healing. @dane: Could you explain how the cleric is keeping up with damage increases? Vigor is a terrible spell in combat. I'm only talking about healing in combat.
dman11235 01-21-08, 10:35 PM	You've completely ignored what I've said. All I've said is that clerics are not heal bots. Buffing the party and using preventative tactics is far better than being reactionary with inefficient healing. @dane: Could you explain how the cleric is keeping up with damage increases? Vigor is a terrible spell in combat. I'm only talking about healing in combat. This is why I shared the "healbot" cleric I play (currently on pause) is not a healbot at all, cleric 5/divine oracle 2/RSoP 10. I use mainly protective party buffs, and then debuff the enemy (with what little debuffing I have). Then it's healing if anyone is in dire need (I heal a good 50 with cure moderate), and if no-one is in danger, I whack things, or use a spell. I have annoyed the DM with how hard I make it to kill my party, but most of this is the protection: they don't fail saves, and their AC is boosted by a good bit, and their attacks are boosted as well. The other 1/3 of the annoyance is the couple healing spells during longer, more challenging encounters, and the fact that I use out of combat to bring them to full.
archerpwr 01-21-08, 10:44 PM	Stuff This is a great way to play a cleric. IMO RSoP is too costly. You need the sun domain, healing domain, and the PH2 ACF to make good use. Thank you for telling me about some things clerics can do besides heal.
dman11235 01-21-08, 11:03 PM	Ironically, I do all of that.
archerpwr 01-21-08, 11:26 PM	Ironically, I do all of that. Wait, clerics can do more than one thing? Blasphemy! Sorry, healbot clerics just irk me.
danielinthewolvesden 01-22-08, 02:19 AM	It doesn't say anywhere in the description that it requires you to have Turning, so it doesn't. Read it- you must channel Positive Energy. Now, most of us think that is fluff, but some think it means you have to be able to Channel Positive Energy.
LoneFlame 01-22-08, 11:07 AM	Read it- you must channel Positive Energy. Now, most of us think that is fluff, but some think it means you have to be able to Channel Positive Energy. The Positive Energy's in the Charges in the Belt.
OzyBurrfoot 01-22-08, 04:09 PM	Well thanks everyone for taking this thread and turning it into another pointless discussion about clerics and CoDzilla. As it happens I found EXACTLY what I was looking for in Dragon Magazine #311, with a bunch of Cleric variants that use neither Turn Undead or Domains, so although you all seem stuck on the idea that you need Domains to be a cleric, or even a cleric-like class, it seems the good folks at Dragon dont agree. But thanks again for all the useless non-help.
dman11235 01-22-08, 06:54 PM	Why so bitter Ozy? We gave you what we thought, and some variants that were exactly what you looked for, except for the fact that they still had either turning or domains or both. We think that a cleric is a cleric due to the domains. Think about it, what other class gets them? It's what makes the cleric different from the spellcaster generic class.
tyrecian 01-22-08, 07:34 PM	actually, while domains don't define a cleric, per se, they are nice additional options for an extra spell per level. If you are giving them up, are you getting that extra spell as a general slot? Otherwise think before you leap, with healing domain, that extra spell is a nice boost to HP, with divination domain, you can answer many questions freely, etc. As far as healing, yes heal bots are nice, and no CLW and Heal are not the only heals a cleric uses. All parties i have DM'ed have required a good healer. The posts we were redirected to were nice and well thought out, but they definately do not replace a cleric that can heal. Wands are expensive as hell, unless your DM allows you to buy wands with less than 50 charges starting out :) The monk/cleric idea for a variant is a nice idea (reminds me of monk/healers in guildwars) as it will give you a lot more mobility. There is a nice spell around 4th level in the SC that gives a nice boost to dexterity. I had a cleric on one of my groups that used it to boost his AC very high (he wore mithral chain i think) and he was a nasty tank with PA and a keen scimitar, he would wail thoruhg opponents (his buddy a wizard was nasty with the slows too). He was a RSoP and played with the DMM cheese package, so he had 24 hour buffs kicking arse :) good luck with the losign a domain and turning variant. Turning is very rarely used later on (although greater turning can be delicious), so using a variant that gets rid of it isnt the worst idea (the whole crux of DMM). So long as you still have a powreful spell list (all cleric's) and the same number of spells, you will be able to pump yourself up with your spells, or your tank, whoever, and still be able to adequately heal in combat and use items out of combat. I havent checked out the MiC yet, but it looks like it has some fun healing helpers. Good luck!