Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Karrde 06-05-04, 10:28 PM	Now dont get me wrong, i love both these classes. They are both fun to play as and interesting, but lately i've been wondering if the cleric steals some, or all, of the Bard's glory. Here is how i compare the two. The bard is, in everyone's opinion, the jack of all trades. Not the best in skills, fighting, or spellcasting, but can do each of them reasonably well. The cleric is the holy warrior, a god's tool on earth, and gets quite a number of quirks because of it. He has excellent spellcasting, along with good melee, which is made even better by the fact that he can cure himself. However, he is weak on skills, which is the only reason this problem has ever come up. Question, could a properly done cleric do everything a bard does, and more, along with getting many other benifits? The bard gains a 3/4 BAB. The cleric also has this, but Bull's str, cat's grace, and endurance makes him a slightly better meleer than the bard, along with being able to use heal on himself, instantly curing 150 dmg. While he dosen't have the bard's singing abilities, i think the spells he can cast at least equal the bard there. In terms of spellcasting, the cleric is clearly superior. He has lots more offensive spells, defensive spells, and a far greater list of spells to choose from. (side note, has anyone else but me noticed that the bard only gets up to level 6 spells, but he actually gets them when everyone else is getting level 8 and 9 spells. Along with making them easier to resist, shouldn't he be getting them earlier?) Now skills, the only point of contention. The cleric does not have as good a skill list, or as many skill points to use, as the bard. However, the cleric's spellcasting ability can make up for that. Now i dont know, but i think that the cleric gets knock, which rather defeats the point of having good lockpicking. He also has invisibility, which is far better than hiding. The list goes on. I'm not trying to convince anyone that the cleric is better than the bard, but it looks that way to me. I really, really, really hope that i'm wrong, because i actually like bards a lot more than i like clerics.
detectevil 06-05-04, 11:12 PM	You don't have to try. The cleric is better than the bard. And better than the fighter, and better than the wizard, and better than the paladin. Divine spellcasters in this game are a complete abuse.
Ogre Mage 06-06-04, 05:58 AM	Originally posted by detectevil You don't have to try. The cleric is better than the bard. And better than the fighter, and better than the wizard, and better than the paladin. Divine spellcasters in this game are a complete abuse. And that's the way we like it so us healers can get some R-E-S-P-E-C-T. :D :tiphat: which is made even better by the fact that he can cure himself The cleric is generally also expected to heal everyone else, not just himself.
Sir Ferdinand 06-06-04, 06:41 AM	I really don't think that Clerics could ever replace Bards in what Bards do. I mean, how many Clerics have you seen acting like a Bard? How many Clerics have you seen playing, singing, or dancing in a bar or an inn? How many Clerics have you seen telling stories of things that basically no one should be able to know? I haven't seen a single Cleric like that, and I don't think I'll ever will. Now those are outside combat abilities which Bards can do, and they do them extremely well. In combat the thing is a bit different of course. When Cleric gets Divine Power and Righteous Might and therefore +14 to Strength, Fighter Base Attack Bonus, Damage Reduction 15 and some other stuff, they're without any question even better than any Fighter could ever be. But Bards still have their own place in combat. When Clerics tend to be melee characters, Bards are more of archers. Bards don't have to risk their lives in combat by going into melee, and they can give a big support from backline. For example +4 to attack and damage for all allies isn't that bad IMO. Neither is +4 to AC and all saves or +2 HD (d10), +2 attack bonus and some other nice stuff for couple of allies... So what Bards do in combat (in general) is to stay away from melee and give boost to other member's combat skills (and for themselves as well). Now not only does Bard's abilities help in that, but so do their spells. Bards have couple of buff spells and some other boost spells. Bards are the 2nd hand Clerics when it comes to healing, Bards can make the party invisible or silent. Bards can move to places no Clerics could go thanks to Bard spells etc. So what Bards do with spells is to help others by boosting other allies' combat abilities, or to get the group from point A to point B unnoticed. Bard's class abilities help in that as well. Fascinate and Suggestion are a good way to get the group unnoticed past some guard(s). This could be used to get away from some overwhelming battle as well, I mean, if the opponent would be just too much for the party to handle. Of course it must happen before the opponent becomes hostile, but still. Usually even dragons tend to talk before attacking and it gives a chance for Bards to shine. As for the skills. Even Cleric spells are not a solution for everything Bards can do. If the CLeric really want to try to compete with Bards in skills, the CLeric should use about 100% of its spells to get some good spells to compete against Bards skills and it would mean that after that Bards would be in fact better than Clerics in many other things now like in combat and stuff. And there's still so many skills (Bards having the biggest skill list of all classes) that Clerics couldn't do with spells, so you don't have to worry that Clerics would outdo Bards in that. All in all, I think all Classes have their own place, it's just in different situations like it is supposed to be.
Neonsamurai 06-06-04, 08:28 AM	A mid to high level cheater of mystra/dweomer cheater can virtually mimic anything a bard could do except for bardic kowledge and skills. But if you want skills i'd go for rogue any day.
lantzer 06-06-04, 09:26 AM	Sort of on topic: We have a cleric-bard in our party. We love Prayer spells combined with Bardic singing.
Sproik 06-06-04, 09:51 AM	Originally posted by Sir Ferdinand I really don't think that Clerics could ever replace Bards in what Bards do. I mean, how many Clerics have you seen acting like a Bard? How many Clerics have you seen playing, singing, or dancing in a bar or an inn? Er... I think the point was to suggest that Clerics are not better than bards. :D
Felicia 06-06-04, 10:46 AM	Originally posted by Sir Ferdinand I really don't think that Clerics could ever replace Bards in what Bards do. I mean, how many Clerics have you seen acting like a Bard? How many Clerics have you seen playing, singing, or dancing in a bar or an inn? You can see them frequently singing and chanting in their church at the mass. :D How many Clerics have you seen telling stories of things that basically no one should be able to know? They do that frequently when they preach. :D Ok, a cleric looks more serious than a bard when singing, chanting or storytelling, but still ... :D
Thermanshs 06-06-04, 02:34 PM	bardic skill utility(cha dependent) and charming is but unmatched.As for the rest of it...I don't think he has many common points with the cleric.
Ogre Mage 06-07-04, 01:07 AM	The funny thing is that the bard is a cross between the rogue and the cleric. It has good skills like the rogue as well as healing magic like the cleric. Considering cleric and rogue are two of my favorite classes, I should love bards. But instead I dislike them. I just find them artsy-fartsy. Also, they are generalists in a world that caters to specialists.
Karl of Mystra 06-07-04, 05:22 AM	Mmmmm... You are forgetting the Use Magic Item skill. As you have said, almost all of the power of the cleric comes from his spells. Could anyone tell me of a spell (besides perhaps anyspell, greater anyspell and Rary's Mnemonic enhacer, and the later could be used with the "Arcane Preparation" feat) that the Bard cannot use as well as a cleric? A Bard with wands of Divine Favor and Divine Power is almost as powerful in combal than any cleric, and he still could cast haste, displacement or Improved invisibility, and he still gets more skills!! And, Neonsamurai, what's that about a "cheater of Mystra"?? :smirk: Sie dürfen nicht das sagen!! (Entshuldigung; ich bin in erst(is this "first"?)) kurs auf deutsch):embarrass I'm looking for a good D&D web in german, Could you recomend me any? It will come handy to improve "mein deutsch!!"
Will Brandiman 06-07-04, 05:48 AM	Originally posted by Karrde Now dont get me wrong, i love both these classes. They are both fun to play as and interesting, but lately i've been wondering if the cleric steals some, or all, of the Bard's glory. The cleric doesn't really compete with the bard at what the bard does best, ie use Bardic Music. It's just everything else that the cleric is better at. But then, the cleric is better than anything else in the core rules too. The days of all-cleric parties aren't too far away.
Thermanshs 06-07-04, 05:53 AM	Originally posted by Karl of Mystra Mmmmm... You are forgetting the Use Magic Item skill. :ayyyy!:
Zelphi 06-07-04, 06:04 AM	Seeing as there's no exclusive skills anymore? Is it possible for them to get Use Psionic Device? and other such skills? Anyway... in a combat scenario they may not gain as much... and the lose of the Arcane spell list seems to hit hard - it's one of the most annoying things there is. They are the 5th member of the 4 party group. Maybe that's something that needs to change... or just dump all that combat nonsense on the Cleric.
CaoSlayer 06-07-04, 06:29 AM	well, at fist instance... this isnt a fair comparation... the 3.X cleric is overpowered, ever the wizards guys agreeds in this because they beffed the cleric class to make it more liked by players. (in second edition almost nobody liked the cleric because was just a walking healing rod). Still, here people tend to look just plain numbers and forget the rest... The bard spell casting isnt way inferior to the cleric one... can seem so because the slower spell gain and the cap of level 6 spells... but then one forget three things: 1. Arcane magic >> Divine magic maybe the bard lacks the damaging evocation of the wizard and the heal and raise dead spells... but still have lots of powerful spells that a cleric cant dream, alterself is godly, specially playing with an aasimar, blink it is "quasi improved" evation and I dont think that the cleric have something as poweful as inresisible dance... And in the other hand, wizards can use cure X wounds or silence... 2. Spontaneus casting >> prepared spells. This is a fact, it is supoused that the sorcerer it is balanced with the wizard thanks to this feature. 3. The bard spell list it is tricky... A bard can perfectly compose this spell list with spells that would be one or two levels higher for a cleric or a wizard, that means that althrought this efective casting it is one lower, he is using spells more powerful that the cleric/wizards one of that level. And also... you should add the bardsongs as a special spell level, that gain an additional use each level. so my point it is this: The bard isnt weak at all, just it is that the cleric it is too power ful.
Karrde 06-07-04, 07:44 PM	The cleric doesn't really compete with the bard at what the bard does best, ie use Bardic Music. It's just everything else that the cleric is better at. But then, the cleric is better than anything else in the core rules too. The days of all-cleric parties aren't too far away. Overall, the message I'm getting in this forum is that there isn't any real problem with the bard class, the cleric is just overpowered. Any comments on that deduction? However, i dont really agree that bardic music is that great. At lvl 20, the bard can facinate and suggest about 5 creatures, give his party +4 to atk and damage rolls, give someone in his party +2d10 temp hp, +2 on atk rolls, and various other minor benifits, or give someone in his party a +4 bonus to armor class. I think one of two things about bardic music, either it needs to give nastier buffs and mess with enemies more, or it needs to offer some unique special affects that can't be duplicated with magic.
meabolex 06-07-04, 10:01 PM	Ahem. I guess I better make my comments and leave. The cleric is my least favorite class. The bard is my favorite class. So, given my previous comments, I normally would discuss all the faults of the clerics and laud the bard. But, for a change, I'll change my argument completely. * WARNING - THIS IS A REVERSE RANT * The bard is overpowered. Yes, you heard me correctly. And yes, the cleric is an under-powered wimp. With all that clunky armor, the cleric is doomed if he has to make a dex or strength-based skill check. Most DMs are afraid to put a lot of painful dex/strength skill-based checks in a game because often they'd spell doom to a cleric. He gains access to damaging spells slower than the wizard. And his spell list is actually rather small -- he can't do any of the flashier things like the sorc/wizard unless his domains allow him. The limited scope of the domain leaves the cleric dependent on others to do most of the flashy work most of the time. While the mid-range-level righteous might and divine power are used commonly to extol the virtues of being a cleric, you can often become more damaging with polymorph alone -- or at least more resistant to attacks. The multiple rounds that a cleric must "buff" himself with these spells lowers the actual damage output that he can achieve in one combat. Also, the spells are subject to disruption and dispel magic -- properties that bardic music doesn't have to worry about. In addition -- bard music helps multiples when divine might only helps one character. If the party is depending on the cleric for healing, they're out of luck while "the mammoth" attacks and ignores the party. The bard actually gains faster access to higher-level spells on the sorcerer/wizard list. The bard learns certain sorcerer/wizard spells at the same rate as a sorcerer (or even faster) for a given level. While they don't learn the whole sorcerer/wizard list, they DO learn a choice number of mainly enchantment spells which can have a serious effect on combat -- like Confusion, Dominate Person, Mass Suggestion, and Otto's Irresistable Dance; several of these spells have very nearly killed off parties that I have DMed and have killed many individuals. Turn undead is such a poor mechanic for the vast majority of the game doesn't have undead in it that Wizards had to create the sacrifice-a-turn-for-an-effect feats in the Complete Warrior and the new metamagic feats in the Complete Divine. While it certainly is useful in the few situations it is applicable in, bardic music kicks turn undead's :censored:. The fact that it boosts the party's attack AND damage makes it much more powerful than several fighter feats. The bard can choose which music best works in a given situation and therefore makes it very flexible. The bard also has access to more powerful martial weapons than the cleric (like the composite longbow and longsword). The bard has 3 times the cleric's skills and a class ability that benefits from intelligence (Bardic Knowledge). With access to almost all skills, the bard can easily out-knowledge and out-skill a cleric. Bardic Knowledge can prepare the party for encounters and situations as well as many high-level cleric divinations do. With access to UMD, the bard can activate wands of magic missile and staffs of fire with great ease. Since charisma is an important mod for spellcasting, the UMD check will probably be the best in the game. Also, clerics have NO skills that use wisdom as its primary modifier. The bard can learn most charisma-based, dex-based, and int-based (in fact, there's only 11 skills the bard doesn't have on their skill list). The use of light armor frees the bard to be mobile in combat and allows the bard to use archery with the core rules. Wizards had to put a non-core feat in (Zen Archery) to allow the cleric to have any chance in archery combat. Since bards are more mobile, they can attack with ranged attacks and not worry as much about huge armor check penalties when making dex/str skill-based checks. So, in closing, the bard is overpowered and needs a serious nerf. The cleric is underpowered and needs some serious work. Hahaha (: Now rant away! (:
Gemstone 06-08-04, 03:47 AM	WOAH! Thanks meabolex for saying what I was about to say! However, I believe that neither the Cleric or the Bard i overpowerd. The only thing with the bard is that his bardic music is a bit to loosy and that his spell list could be improved a bit, but that is just for flavor. What is all this talk about the cleric being overpower btw. Give me arguments please. I don't say against you, I just miss your point!
Thermanshs 06-08-04, 05:09 AM	excelent post meaoblex! :bow: at last someone summed things up!So while a cleric's power seems great in theory ALL your contradictions are true.Although you're exaggerating at some points I agree with you...
CaoSlayer 06-08-04, 06:56 AM	Originally posted by Karrde However, i dont really agree that bardic music is that great. At lvl 20, the bard can facinate and suggest about 5 creatures, give his party +4 to atk and damage rolls, give someone in his party +2d10 temp hp, +2 on atk rolls, and various other minor benifits, or give someone in his party a +4 bonus to armor class. I think one of two things about bardic music, either it needs to give nastier buffs and mess with enemies more, or it needs to offer some unique special affects that can't be duplicated with magic. ummm, two things... do you realize the impontance to +4 to attack and damage to everone? (and another +2 later)? a guy with power attack and a two handed weapon can exchange the to hit for scoring up to +13 to damage without any kind of penalty, and guys with combat expertise can get +4 AC and damage... Also that it is just the basic bardic music, so have a moderate power, for more songs and more special effects, are the bardic prcs, that can improve the singing (at cost of manybe losing things like good HD, BAB, spells, etc.) there is a prc in the book of exalted deeds that can emulate the cleric spell word of faith... I think what that spell stuns every evildoer without a save and you can do it up to 20 times a day... and then add the broken words of creations for doubling the power of the songs...
Zelphi 06-08-04, 08:19 AM	I miss casting Arcane spells like Lightning with my Bard... Whilst they're certainly powerful... they certainly don't make a team. They can't overly fit any of the four core roles.
CaoSlayer 06-08-04, 09:49 AM	ummm, you actually can cast it with shadow evocation... isnt as poweful or acesible, but less is nothing :D
meabolex 06-08-04, 09:51 AM	I cast fireball all the time with my bard. Staffs are your friends (:
baerdith 06-08-04, 03:36 PM	Originally posted by Ogre Mage The funny thing is that the bard is a cross between the rogue and the cleric. It has good skills like the rogue as well as healing magic like the cleric. Considering cleric and rogue are two of my favorite classes, I should love bards. But instead I dislike them. I just find them artsy-fartsy. Also, they are generalists in a world that caters to specialists. Actually as built I tends to think of the Bard as Cleric/Rogue/Sorceror/Loremaster all rolled up into a core class. The ORIGINAL designers (1st ed) didn't make it difficult to qualify for the class for nothing!
baerdith 06-08-04, 04:01 PM	Originally posted by Karrde At lvl 20, the bard can facinate and suggest about 5 creatures, give his party +4 to atk and damage rolls, give someone in his party +2d10 temp hp, +2 on atk rolls, and various other minor benifits, or give someone in his party a +4 bonus to armor class. But what you are forgetting here is this: Say the party is beset by 12 20th level fighters with bad@ss magic items. Your party gets buffed +4 the main fighter gets +2d10 temp hp, +2 on atk rolls and 5 of the enemy fighters is suggested that the party are his friends and the enemies are HIS enemies. Your party just gained 5 members who will take out 5 enemies. Your big fighter can take out 1 and the rest of the party can gang up on the last enemy.so your party of 5 has just beaten 12 EBBG.
Karrde 06-08-04, 04:24 PM	While yours is a well composed and organized retort meabloex, I have to disagree. Here's now With all that clunky armor, the cleric is doomed if he has to make a dex or strength-based skill check. Most DMs are afraid to put a lot of painful dex/strength skill-based checks in a game because often they'd spell doom to a cleric. Why cant a cleric have a high dex check and use light armor . . . ? They're proficient last time I checked. They also can use medium armor without having to worry about arcane spell failure. He gains access to damaging spells slower than the wizard. And his spell list is actually rather small -- he can't do any of the flashier things like the sorc/wizard unless his domains allow him. The limited scope of the domain leaves the cleric dependent on others to do most of the flashy work most of the time. :confused: Non-flashy? Here's a list of damage mongers the cleric gains, off just the main spell list, with no domains. Flame Strike, Searing Light, Inflict Critical Wounds, Blade Barrier, Harm, Firestorm. Here's a list of damage mongers the bard gains. Shout, Greater, Shadow Evocation? While the cleric certianly dosn't gain as many big explosions as the wiz or sorc, they're not bad. While the mid-range-level righteous might and divine power are used commonly to extol the virtues of being a cleric, you can often become more damaging with polymorph alone -- or at least more resistant to attacks. The multiple rounds that a cleric must "buff" himself with these spells lowers the actual damage output that he can achieve in one combat. Also, the spells are subject to disruption and dispel magic -- properties that bardic music doesn't have to worry about. In addition -- bard music helps multiples when divine might only helps one character. If the party is depending on the cleric for healing, they're out of luck while "the mammoth" attacks and ignores the party. While i see your point here, a mid level caster of polymorph would be stuck with a max HD of 10 for any monster they change into, gain no special magic attacks, along with losing all their magic items for the duration. Not a great thing for a sorc/wiz/bard to do. Righteous might gives some pretty good bonuses now that i look at it, and divine power is nice too. The two together do way more than the bardic songs do, though they do only affect the caster. The bard actually gains faster access to higher-level spells on the sorcerer/wizard list. The bard learns certain sorcerer/wizard spells at the same rate as a sorcerer (or even faster) for a given level. While they don't learn the whole sorcerer/wizard list, they DO learn a choice number of mainly enchantment spells which can have a serious effect on combat -- like Confusion, Dominate Person, Mass Suggestion, and Otto's Irresistable Dance; several of these spells have very nearly killed off parties that I have DMed and have killed many individuals. Confusion is gained by the Wizard at lvl 7, while it is gained at level 7 for bards. Dominate Person is gained by the Wizard at lvl 9, while it is gained at level 10 for bards. Mass Suggestion is gained by the Wizard at lvl 11, while it is gained at level 13 for bards. Otto's Irrestable Dance is gained by the Wizard at lvl 15, while it is gained at level 16 for bards. It looks better for bards at first glance, because their spells are at a lower spell level than the wizards, but the bards actually get many of their spells after a wizard has known them for a little while And the spells, being a lower level, are easier to resist. The numbers above are actual character levels, btw, not spell levels. Turn undead is such a poor mechanic for the vast majority of the game doesn't have undead in it that Wizards had to create the sacrifice-a-turn-for-an-effect feats in the Complete Warrior and the new metamagic feats in the Complete Divine. While it certainly is useful in the few situations it is applicable in, bardic music kicks turn undead's (Censored). The fact that it boosts the party's attack AND damage makes it much more powerful than several fighter feats. The bard can choose which music best works in a given situation and therefore makes it very flexible. I completely agree with you on the turning, that is overall a pretty weak ability without some specialised feats. However, undead are automatically immune to all mind infulencing effects, including bardic music, unless you have the feat requiem, out of song and silence. The bonuses to atk and dmg are offset by the fact that most higher level undead have damage reduction, though they certianly help. The bard also has access to more powerful martial weapons than the cleric (like the composite longbow and longsword) You got me there. The bard has 3 times the cleric's skills and a class ability that benefits from intelligence (Bardic Music). With access to almost all skills, the bard can easily out-knowledge and out-skill a cleric. Bardic Knowledge can prepare the party for encounters and situations as well as many high-level cleric divinations do. With access to UMD, the bard can activate wands of magic missile and staffs of fire with great ease. Since charisma is an important mod for spellcasting, the UMD check will probably be the best in the game. Also, clerics have NO skills that use wisdom as its primary modifier. The bard can learn most charisma-based, dex-based, and int-based (in fact, there's only 11 skills the bard doesn't have on their skill list). This is all true, but i did say in the first part of this forum that skills were the only thing keeping the cleric and bard in the least bit balanced. A cleric's skill list and points are awful, but a couple of their spells can help them a bit. However, the bard is clearly superior in this area. The use of light armor frees the bard to be mobile in combat and allows the bard to use archery with the core rules. Wizards had to put a non-core feat in (Zen Archery) to allow the cleric to have any chance in archery combat. Since bards are more mobile, they can attack with ranged attacks and not worry as much about huge armor check penalties when making dex/str skill-based checks. Again, clerics can use light armor and can also sacrfice a good str mod for good dex. Both Rightous Might and Divine Power help in archery by making the weapons used larger, thus dealing more damage, and raising the BAB of the cleric to that of a fighter, giving him more attacks and making the original attacks more accurate. Sorry, but i think you're wrong.
fractal 06-08-04, 04:40 PM	Originally posted by Karrde Confusion is gained by the Wizard at lvl 7, while it is gained at level 7 for bards. Dominate Person is gained by the Wizard at lvl 9, while it is gained at level 10 for bards. Mass Suggestion is gained by the Wizard at lvl 11, while it is gained at level 13 for bards. Otto's Irrestable Dance is gained by the Wizard at lvl 15, while it is gained at level 16 for bards. It looks better for bards at first glance, because their spells are at a lower spell level than the wizards, but the bards actually get many of their spells after a wizard has known them for a little while And the spells, being a lower level, are easier to resist. The numbers above are actual character levels, btw, not spell levels. Except that he compared Bards to Sorcerers, not to Wizards. Add a level to when Wizards learn each of the spells you listed above, and Bards don't come out too badly, especially because they get to choose two spells of the highest level, while Sorcerers only learn one to begin with.
Thermanshs 06-08-04, 05:24 PM	This conversation turns out to be very interesting from both sides.Just some things to add here. A magic item storing a 6th level spell is MUCH cheaper than one storing 8th or 9th level ones.So bardic enchantments come cheaper than the wiz/sor equivalents. Clerics CAN get into light armor but then you have to revise that front line orientated thing...;).Let's use average builds to make comparissons easier...80% of the clerics clang around in full plate...
Karrde 06-08-04, 06:29 PM	ok, but even still, when compared to sorcerers, bards still get screwed, because when a sorcerer is learning 7, 8, and 9 lvl spells the bard is learning lvl 5 and 6. 80% of a bard's offensive spells give the target a will saving throw, so even if they're using heighten spell the sorcerer's spells are that much harder to resist. By the time a Bard is getting the two spells to start out with at 9th level, a sorcerer knows 3 lvl 6 spell, 2 lvl 7 spells, and 1 lvl 8 spell. Ok, using the steriotypes of clerics, they are probably not going to be archers, i just wanted to add that there is nothing inherent in the bard class that makes them better able to be archers than the clerics. It's just a style issue.
Karrde 06-08-04, 06:30 PM	By the time a Bard is getting the two spells to start out with at 9th level, a sorcerer knows 3 lvl 6 spell, 2 lvl 7 spells, and 1 lvl 8 spell. whoops, i made a typo here, i meant: By the time a Bard is getting the two spells to start out with at 16th level, a sorcerer knows 3 lvl 6 spell, 2 lvl 7 spells, and 1 lvl 8 spell.
Thermanshs 06-08-04, 06:36 PM	Originally posted by Karrde Ok, using the steriotypes of clerics, they are probably not going to be archers, i just wanted to add that there is nothing inherent in the bard class that makes them better able to be archers than the clerics. It's just a style issue. If bards have to fight then it's gonna be either a wip and shield or a bow...their role is clear...(low hp and AC)
Karrde 06-08-04, 07:01 PM	That kind of proves one of my points; that there is little to nothing that the bard can do that the cleric can't equal or surpass him in. The fact that a bard must use either a bow or whip b/c of low hp and ac proves that the bard can't surpass the cleric in raw combat power.
fractal 06-08-04, 07:13 PM	Originally posted by Karrde By the time a Bard is getting the two spells to start out with at 16th level, a sorcerer knows 3 lvl 6 spell, 2 lvl 7 spells, and 1 lvl 8 spell. True, although that 16th level Bard could know both Greater Shout and Otto's Irresistible Dance, while a Sorcerer could only know one of the two. Of course, the Sorcerer could still cast the one he knew a lot more times per day. I don't think anyone is claiming that Bards are as good at casting spells as primary spellcasters. The point is just that they're not necessarily 3 spell levels behind, because some of their spells are of unusually high quality for that spell level. In the case of these two spells, Bards are barely behind the Sorcerer at all. Sorcerers will go on, at 18th level, to learn level 9 spells, but that's still effectively only one spell level higher than some of the Bard's spells.
meabolex 06-08-04, 10:04 PM	Originally posted by Karrde That kind of proves one of my points; that there is little to nothing that the bard can do that the cleric can't equal or surpass him in. If you play by the core rules, that's not true. A cleric archer is only because of Zen Archery (a silly feat if you ask me). How bout I apply my charisma bonus to my armor class? Call it "Force of Personality" (-; My problem with the cleric is that originally, he was supposed to be a team player. He wasn't supposed to be a mega-powerful tank-o-doom -- he was supposed to be a support character. But no one wanted to play someone who wasn't the most powerful. :rolleyes: So they souped him up. Most people want to play "the most powerful character possible." And since healing is requirement in most parties, Wizards figured that they had to make the healing character powerful in order to ensure someone would play him. Now the optimal party in the game is four clerics. They've gone too far -- from too little to too much goes the seesaw! I'm about to play a cleric in a new campaign. It will be my only cleric ever probably. I'll post about how broken it becomes when I finalize it (and post it over on the CO boards). We'll see who's unbalanced then (:
Karrde 06-08-04, 10:29 PM	I'm not using Zen Archery in my argument. All I'm saying it that, unfourtunately, the cleric and bard skills overlap too much, and the cleric can generally to better in the overlapping situations. Because of the two mega tanking spells, Rightous Might and Divine Power, the cleric can actually be a better archer than the bard by giving himself a larger weapon for more damage, and fighter BAB for more and more accurate attacks. So you take a cleric, put the crazy str score into dex instead, have them wear light or no armor, put a bow in their hands, and let them cast these two spells. The bard who's singing and using the same bow can't really compete, because the cleric shoots more often, with more accuracy, using a better bow.
Thermanshs 06-09-04, 04:49 AM	Originally posted by Karrde The fact that a bard must use either a bow or whip b/c of low hp and ac proves that the bard can't surpass the cleric in raw combat power. I think this was pointed right from the start...:confused: Because of the two mega tanking spells, Rightous Might and Divine Power, the cleric can actually be a better archer than the bard by giving himself a larger weapon for more damage, and fighter BAB for more and more accurate attacks. So suddenly the party is left out of its healer,buffer:eek: Buffing himself is just pathetic when buffing an already capable meat shield (ftr,brb) would double the benefit.
CaoSlayer 06-09-04, 05:07 AM	Originally posted by Karrde That kind of proves one of my points; that there is little to nothing that the bard can do that the cleric can't equal or surpass him in. The fact that a bard must use either a bow or whip b/c of low hp and ac proves that the bard can't surpass the cleric in raw combat power. ummm, I cant agreed... well, almost, yep, by just plain numbers the cleric is a better front liner... but as I use to say, people tend to forget considering all the bardic stuff. This can sound weird, but bards dont need armor at all, combine blink and displacement or mirror image to become untouchable... and try to combine the battle songs with combat expertise for getting extra AC without the sacrifice of nothing and also you still get light armor having a nice AC. and if you wants powerful damage... then toss the power attack feat and the words of creation feat for getting about +20 to damage without hurting your basic attack bonuses at all... and before someone names whose two famous cleric spells, remember that the bard isnt giving these bonuses to himself but also to everyone else in the party. that argument of that a cleric can surpass a bard in anything maybe can be true... but will need to max/min for doing it, while your medium adverage bard can always be pretty decent in two things at once.
meabolex 06-09-04, 08:44 AM	Originally posted by Karrde Because of the two mega tanking spells, Rightous Might and Divine Power, the cleric can actually be a better archer than the bard by giving himself a larger weapon for more damage, and fighter BAB for more and more accurate attacks. Hmm, let's do the math, shall we? Level 10 Cleric, archery-based, with 25 point buy. Let's make him an elf to get the weapon proficiencies. 12, 16, 11, 10, 15, 8 using the elite array. 12, 18, 12, 10, 16, 8 w/ equipment and stat boosts. He'll have a a +2 (mighty +1) weapon. Let's use core-only rules. Now he has an normal attack bonus of 4 + 2 + 7 = 13 (11/11/6 for rapid shot) and deals an average of 1d8 + 3 (or 7.5 avg. damage not counting criticals) Let's say he has another masterwork mighty +4 bow that he uses when in "mammoth" form. So uses the spells. He gains fighter BaB and +6 strength. BTW, I think it's absolutely BROKEN that the cleric can do this without losing 2 dex as a size-increase penalty (see changing sizes in the monster manual). We'll use the spell as written, but you should get the -2 dex penalty. He now has an attack bonus of 4 + 1 + 10 - 1 (size) = 14 (12/12/7 with rapid shot) And deals 2d6 + 4 (or 11 avg. damage not counting criticals) per hit. We could say that the +2 weapon is the mighty +4 weapon (which can't be used effectively without the buff spells). That increases the avg. damage to 13 per hit (not counting criticals) and the attacks using rapid shot to (13/13/8). EDIT: I forgot about the +8 strength you get from righteous might. That adds on another +8 to strength, so you'll have to have a +2 mighty +8 bow (is that even sane?!). So you now deal an average damage of 2d6 + 2 + 8 = 17 damage. The cleric had to cast two spells to get to this point. So the bard should also be able to cast two spells to get to this point. Let's say the bard uses inspire courage +2 and haste. He also doesn't need to be elf, so we'll make him half-elf. He also has stats as follows: 13, 14, 12, 10, 8, 15 With equipment and stat boosts 14, 16, 12, 10, 8, 16 And he has the +2 composite longbow (+2 mighty): Now he has a normal attack bonus of 3 + 2 + 7 = 12 (or 10/10/5 for normal attacks). He deals 1d8 + 4 damage (or 8.5 average damage per hit minus criticals). He's got haste and inspire courage +2 active, so he now has a normal attack bonus of 3 + 2 + 7 + 2 + 1 = 15 (or 13/13/13/8 using rapid shot). He deals 1d8 + 6 damage (or 10.5 average damage per hit minus criticals). So in one round of combat, assuming all the shots hit with exactly average damage, you get: 42 damage for the bard, 51 damage for the cleric. Add into the equation that the cleric isn't using his heavy armor, had to take a big penalty to his turn undead (by such a low charisma), and the bard has MORE combat buff spells at that level (like greater invisibility), AND the bard's spells effect his whole team, is the extra 9 damage worth it? What is the cleric going to do if the spells are dispelled -- the bardic music can't be dispelled. Yes, the cleric does deal more damage (USING A +8 MIGHTY BOW!?!). Now throw Zen Archery in there, and the cleric gains a SERIOUS boost. He now can hit better than the bard and can wear heavy armor without worrying about a max dex penalty.
CaoSlayer 06-09-04, 09:13 AM	And how many damage would do a bard with the words of creation feat? that would mean +4 to hit and damage and another +4 to hit from I. greatness.
James Moriarty 06-09-04, 09:21 AM	I´m playing a cleric, and I don´t think that my char is overpowered. In my party there is a fighter, a ranger and a barbarian. When we get into a fight I´m casting Divine Power in the first round, Rightous Might in the second. In the third round I´m going to deal my first damage but at least two rounds later I´m going to use all my spells to keep my party alive for the rest of the encounter. Yes clerics are VERY powerful but where a fighter or arcane spellcaster just have kill the enemy, the cleric also must keep the party alive.
Thermanshs 06-09-04, 01:41 PM	Originally posted by meabolex He now can hit better than the bard and can wear heavy armor without worrying about a max dex penalty. ALL your calculations are correct except from this one.MAX DEX bonus from wearing armor applies ONLY to AC bonuses.So you can still use a high dex for ref saves,initiative,ranged attacks etc. As for the -2 DEX penalty due to size change,yes you're correct. for my first comment I used the 3,5 PH pg.122 for my second comment I used table 4-2 3,5 MM pg.291 Yes clerics are VERY powerful but where a fighter or arcane spellcaster just have kill the enemy, the cleric also must keep the party alive. Exactly,if the only thing a cleric thinks of is buffing his ass then he's made great sacrifices leaving the rest of the party in their foes' mercy
Pentar 06-09-04, 01:57 PM	I've read through some of the arguments... I don't think there's a question that the Cleric is more powerful than the bard in raw spell-casting and combat ability. But... Isn't a cleric different from a bard because of roleplaying reasons? A cleric has to follow a faith. He/she has to obey the laws of their diety, perform the tasks of their diety and ensure they spread that god's will and word. A cleric has to oppose his gods enemies, defeat his gods blasphemers and always ensure the will of his church. The Bard does whatever the hell he wants. :) Mostly, wenching, I'd assume, :drool: but still... Clerics are restricted by their diety and their faith. And, IMHO, that should be a major factor in the game. A Cleric of a healing god should not only heal himself in combat and fight on - but always ensure his companions are as healed as they can be as well. A cleric of a combat god would focus only on fighting, to the detriment of his party when he fails to heal them in his battle fury. A cleric of a passive god may choose to avoid combat entirely, utilizing pacifying, stunning, mezzing spells of which the Clerical lines aren't any stronger than the Bard lines. The bard is free to act his will - the cleric never really is.
Tony Vargas 06-09-04, 02:10 PM	Originally posted by Karrde Overall, the message I'm getting in this forum is that there isn't any real problem with the bard class, the cleric is just overpowered. Any comments on that deduction? Well, the Cleric and the Bard are both support characters to a certain extent - a fair bit of thier power goes directly to boosting the rest of the party (Bardic music and clerical healing, for instance). Clerics are 'balanced high' - that is, they have more sheer power than many other classes - in part, in recognition of the fact that some of that power actually flows directly from them to thier party (the classic example being healing). It's not quite that pat: in reality, clerics have always been more powerful than they were popular, and they've been progressively made more powerful, in response to thier lack of popularity. But, I think that's the cause behind the phenomenon. The Bard is in a similar situation - some of his power mainly benefits his party, rather than himself. However, the 3.0 bard was balanced as if he were a regular character, and a generalist. Generalists are little less powerful as a price for thier flexibility, and, in a support role, some of that power flows from the character, to his party. So the bard was underpowered in theory, and, from the PoV of the player (unless he was enlightented enough to get a warm feeling from giving everyone bonuses), was radically so. The 3.5 bard got something of a power-up, but I'm not sure if it's really addressed the core issue, or even if the 3.5 bard is meant to be more or less of a support character than the 3.0 version.
Karrde 06-09-04, 05:06 PM	Hmm, let's do the math, shall we? Level 10 Cleric, archery-based, with 25 point buy. Let's make him an elf to get the weapon proficiencies. 12, 16, 11, 10, 15, 8 using the elite array. 12, 18, 12, 10, 16, 8 w/ equipment and stat boosts. He'll have a a +2 (mighty +1) weapon. Let's use core-only rules. Fine, but let's keep it this way for the entire post, rather than having the cleric change weapons. Also, lets make the bard use the same weapon. Now he has an normal attack bonus of 4 + 2 + 7 = 13 (11/11/6 for rapid shot) and deals an average of 1d8 + 3 (or 7.5 avg. damage not counting criticals) I'm with you so far, this totals for an average of 22.5 + 3 (for str) Let's say he has another masterwork mighty +4 bow that he uses when in "mammoth" form. Lets not, a fact which considerably helps the bard b/c the cleric will defenately have a higher str mod So uses the spells. He gains fighter BaB and +6 strength. BTW, I think it's absolutely BROKEN that the cleric can do this without losing 2 dex as a size-increase penalty (see changing sizes in the monster manual). We'll use the spell as written, but you should get the -2 dex penalty. He now has an attack bonus of 4 + 1 + 10 - 1 (size) = 14 (12/12/7 with rapid shot) He uses the spells, he now has a BAB of +10/+5. The str we can ignore for the moment. His weapon and other equipent change size with him, its in the decription of the spell, so he keeps the same weapon. He now has a bab of +2(magic weapon) + 4(dex) + 10(ftr BAB) -1(size) = 15 (13/13/8 with rapid shot) And deals 2d6 + 4 (or 11 avg. damage not counting criticals) per hit. We could say that the +2 weapon is the mighty +4 weapon (which can't be used effectively without the buff spells). That increases the avg. damage to 13 per hit (not counting criticals) and the attacks using rapid shot to (13/13/8). If we stop changing the weapon he uses, it deals 2d6 + 3 for an average of 10. Assuming every attack hits, this is a total of 30 damage. The cleric had to cast two spells to get to this point. So the bard should also be able to cast two spells to get to this point. Let's say the bard uses inspire courage +2 and haste. He also doesn't need to be elf, so we'll make him half-elf. He also has stats as follows: 13, 14, 12, 10, 8, 15 With equipment and stat boosts 14, 16, 12, 10, 8, 16 And he has the +2 composite longbow (+2 mighty): He buffs himself, but is using the exact same weapon as the cleric, which is a +1 mighty. Now he has a normal attack bonus of 3 + 2 + 7 = 12 (or 10/10/5 for normal attacks). He deals 1d8 + 4 damage (or 8.5 average damage per hit minus criticals). He's got haste and inspire courage +2 active, so he now has a normal attack bonus of 3 + 2 + 7 + 2 + 1 = 15 (or 13/13/13/8 using rapid shot). He deals 1d8 + 6 damage (or 10.5 average damage per hit minus criticals). I agree with the normal attack bonus, but using the same original bow he deals 1d8 + 5 dmg, (+2 magic, +2 singing, +1 mighty) for an average of 9 damage. So in one round of combat, assuming all the shots hit with exactly average damage, you get: 42 damage for the bard, 51 damage for the cleric. I get 36 damage for the bard, 30 for the cleric. hrmmm, I think you got me there, the cleric is not quite as good an archer as the bard. The only real problem i can see is that the bard is then going to have to put valuable money and/or ability points into STR to hope to keep up with the cleric's composite bow. Add into the equation that the cleric isn't using his heavy armor, had to take a big penalty to his turn undead (by such a low charisma), and the bard has MORE combat buff spells at that level (like greater invisibility), AND the bard's spells effect his whole team, is the extra 9 damage worth it? What is the cleric going to do if the spells are dispelled -- the bardic music can't be dispelled. Yes, the cleric does deal more damage (USING A +8 MIGHTY BOW!?!). I dont understand where you get the extra 9 damage for the entire party, +4 is as big as i think it gets before epic. And yes, while the spells can be despelled, so can haste, and bardic music can be silenced. What is the words of creation feat, what does it to and where do i find it? The cleric dosen't nessessarily have to leave the party to his opponents mercy, by using quickened spell he can still get in his full attack action. Even better, because most of his curing spells are touch attacks, the cleric being in the front line is good so he can reach the tanks easier. The role playing issues are completely true, which is why i like playing a bard mroe than a cleric. (i did say that earlier, right?) I'm really hoping for someone to prove me wrong and convince me that the cleric and bard are about equal.
Thermanshs 06-09-04, 06:30 PM	Originally posted by Karrde The only real problem i can see is that the bard is then going to have to put valuable money and/or ability points into STR to hope to keep up with the cleric's composite bow. The cleric as well...and this build doesn't seem to be the most optimal...:rolleyes: The cleric dosen't nessessarily have to leave the party to his opponents mercy, by using quickened spell he can still get in his full attack action. Quicken spell is no excuse....it requires a feat,previous preparation if generally speaking about buffs or even removals and also needs AT LEAST a 9th level caster. I'm really hoping for someone to prove me wrong and convince me that the cleric and bard are about equal. Then what are we talking about all this time?Are you optically impaired?
Karrde 06-09-04, 10:17 PM	Then what are we talking about all this time?Are you optically impaired? Lets not drop into insults. However, you're correct in that my orignal assertion, that clerics and bards fufil too much of the same roll, has been pretty much smashed. Thank you all. One more thing though, while a cleric can't buff party members as well as a bard can, he still buffs himself better than any barbarian i've ever met. As well as being able to cure himself, and nuke almost as well as a sorc/wizard. I think that the cleric class needs to be looked over long and hard by the people at wizards of the coast when they make v 3.6
Thermanshs 06-10-04, 05:39 AM	Originally posted by Karrde Lets not drop into insults. However, you're correct in that my orignal assertion, that clerics and bards fufil too much of the same roll, has been pretty much smashed. Thank you all. No offense meant dear although I found that "I'm really hoping for someone to prove me wrong and convince me that the cleric and bard are about equal." to be really insulting for our previous efforts,anyway...good that we settled down somewhere;)
CaoSlayer 06-10-04, 09:49 AM	[i] What is the words of creation feat, what does it to and where do i find it? [/B] book of exalted deeds... have many effects and one of them it is to bost bardic music... when using a bard song with the WoC the bard get 1d4 of non-lethal damage per perform rank needed for the song (bt example, inspire courage needs 3 ranks and so the bard takes 3d4 non-lethal damage) but the song power it is doubled, so at level 8, the inspire courage will give +4 to hit and damage, and the inspire greatness will give +4 competence bonus to hit and 4d10 + con bonus*4 to hp.
Karrde 06-10-04, 02:45 PM	oooooo, aaaaaah, i need to go get that book!
CaoSlayer 06-14-04, 07:21 AM	yep, laterly wizards it is being too good with bards... another addition it is the arcane strike feat from complete warrior... a cleric cant use it, isnt?
Karrde 06-14-04, 08:11 PM	no, they cant, but its only on a melee strike, and when sacking a 6th lvl spell, the bard only gains a 6d4 (min 6, max 24) dmg, though he does gain a +6 to atk. Not really worth it, in my opinion.
CaoSlayer 06-15-04, 10:59 AM	inst a single attack, it is a single weapon and lasts all the round... so a high end hasted bard will get this 4 attacks with a +6 to hit and 6d4 extra damage. and also at those levels, it is almost imposible to use all the diary level 1-4 spells... of course using that isntead of an inresistible dance it is kinda a waste... but if you have already casted the spell (and cant do anything and you get another +2 to hit), or the enemy it is inmune to your spells, it is a great thing to do. and since combats dont tend to last more than 6-10 rounds, there is enought buffing for all the day long.