Cleric Vs. Druid? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cleric Vs. Druid? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Wazdakka
08-12-07, 02:06 AM As a DM, I have a party of 3 players. One plays a druid, another a rogue, and the third a fighter. I have decided, in order to balance out the party, to play a NPC party member. Now, I thought that the druid could heal, but also fight, it might be good to support the party with a complete healing cleric. However, I worry that I may have too many healers in the group for the encounters in an adventure to be a decent challenge. Then I remember that the party does not technically have a spellcaster, and a balanced party consists of a spellcaster, divine healer, tank, and thief-figure. So I ask what would likely make a more balanced party, A sorcerer, wizard, cleric, bard, what?
Manyfist
08-12-07, 02:19 AM Druid doesn't really need to stand back and heal. He should be up in the front-lines. Using summons, and a heal here and there, and if it goes right you shouldn't really need to heal. He should take Natural Spell, so that he doesn't have to shift out to heal/cast.

In truth you probably need an Arcane Caster for an NPC. Bards are great, since they buff your party and put in extra support. Wizards, are great if you allow down time, if not Sorcerers are better.

Of course if you go non-core, and still just want a heal-bot then use the Healer. Warlocks are good for the "5th wheel" type along with Bards. Beguiler is good all around, setting up some real good illusions, they can provide tactical support. Whats better than having your Rogue and Beguiler get several SA off while the target is fooled by an illusion?
Kratch
08-12-07, 02:22 AM In those kind of cases, where most of the bases are covered, I like to add a bard NPC with heal and buff spells, and knowledge skills. The bards party support is very helpful, while never actually taking the glory away from the real PC's. and the bardic knowledge and skills allow you to insert relevent information to the PC's when needed, They help push the plot along a little when the PC's get stumped.
1 ton ghost
08-12-07, 02:27 AM stndrd party since the 70's is...

1 heavy melee combatant (ftr, knght, brb, etc.)
1 divine/auxillary attacker
1 arcane
1 thief/rogue/scoundrel/face man/etc.

you can take liberties, especially w/ an NPC, plus it's a good way to try out new material as a test run so to speak. best way to learn it is to play it IMO.

you probably need some arcane (warlock, wiz/soc)
typically sorcerer is easier to keep track of NPC wise thought wiz is more versatile.
BW0222
08-12-07, 10:41 AM Wazdakka,

It is a fairly balanced party. In combat, the fighter can go up front, the rogue has a buddy to gain sneak attack from, and the druid can bluff, summon, or blast more creatures down. His animal companion also serves as front-line. The druid can heal (in combat if necessary) or after combat (using wands or scrolls).

Out of combat, the rogue has lots of scouting abilities and can handle city-stuff, traps, locks, etc. The druid can handle the wilderness stuff, and diplomacy if necessary. About the only thing you are missing are a few knowledge skills and the possible miscelleneous arcane spells -- most of which can be done via mundane means or with druid.

I honestly don't think they need any special NPC help. It is a strong party. They may have to purchase a few extra consumables, but their damage potential for a three person party is extremely high. Most folks will drop pretty quick. Just adjust the APL of the party down one and play on. Most players will enjoy the challenge of finding ways around party deficiencies.

If you need to help them out, just making friends with somene who can provide various potions and such would be helpful.
FrinkiacVII
08-12-07, 02:45 PM What level are the party PCs at now? If they're level 1, then they can probably live without an arcane spellcaster for a few levels, tho by level 5-6 they might begin to notice they could use one. If they're level 10, I think they'll definitely need an arcane spallcaster. The wizard at level 1 is pretty weak compared to the fighter, as the level 1 wizard gets only a few spells per day and ends up shooting his crossbow or bow a lot. At level 10, there are things that ONLY an arcane spellcaster can do (tho the same could be said for the Cleric, e.g. Raise Dead).

So, if they're level 1, I'd go cleric, if they're level 4, something arcane.
Shaggy_Shaggs
08-12-07, 02:57 PM If you're working at high enough levels, an arcanist can do some healing in emergencies anyway, as long as he hasn't just leveled up recently. Limited Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm) can emulate Heal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heal.htm) because the Adept (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/adept.htm) NPC class gets it as a level 5 spell.
Jaxgaret
08-12-07, 04:21 PM I would say that, as a DMPC character, you do not want your NPC to dominate the party or be the primary problem solver.

As such, I would recommend against a full arcanist. A Bard would be a great addition to the party as a buffer and secondary healer, without overshadowing the rest of the party.
Treantmonklvl20
08-12-07, 04:58 PM The 3 person party you've mentioned is fairly well balanced. If I was going to cut one member of the iconic four, the arcane caster would be it.

An NPC should be someone who is a background character - someone who doesn't steal the limelight from the characters - wizard or sorcerer is a bad choice for this.

I would suggest either:

A) Nothing - let the increased XP the characters get take care of them itself.

B) Bard - specializing in buffing/healing. Purely support of the real heroes.

C) Any pure healbot - how about a pacifist - cleric?
Kratch
08-13-07, 03:31 AM You make a decision yet? I'm curious what you chose to add.
Ian Demagi
08-13-07, 12:01 PM I am not a big believer in DMNPC in 3.5 Ed. There are well developed rules for co-horts, let one of the players take leadership and choose a cohort, but its your game. Healing is covered with Druid & UMD by Rogue. A generalist wizard completes this party, my 2 coopers, Ian.
RobbyPants
08-13-07, 12:48 PM All in all, I avoid running an extra NPC to balance out the party if I can avoid it. I do this mainly because I hate taking the time to actually run them in combat. In my last game, I often had a cleric with the party so they didn't have to rest after every one or two encounters. Plus, his RP fluff was the reason for a lot of their adventures. Still, sometimes you may find this necessary to run a paricular adventure.

Here are my suggestions:

Cleric - the cleric can probably perfom a lot like the druid: a good solid mix of front-line melee, buffs, and healing. This won't make the party more versitle, but it will make it stronger.
Wizard/Sorcerer - this will be more versitile, but you may find running a caster NPC to be too much bookkeeping. If you want to cut down on bookkeeping, go with sorcerer. If you want to have lots of versitility, go with wizard.
If you are allowing non-core classes, consider a dragon shaman (PHBII) instead of a bard. They are also good 5th wheel, buff types. They aren't great at any one role, but they can support any role quite well. You'll get persistant buffs from auras (great for front-line melee), minor healing, moderate tanking, and minor but limitelss blasting. I might conisder using this to augment the other PCs. Plus, with the fast healing aura (that brings them up to half HP), the druid can conserve spells that would be otherwise used for healing.
Lawkeeper
08-13-07, 02:01 PM I am not a big believer in DMNPC in 3.5 Ed. There are well developed rules for co-horts, let one of the players take leadership and choose a cohort, but its your game. Healing is covered with Druid & UMD by Rogue. A generalist wizard completes this party, my 2 coopers, Ian.
I second that. Running a game as a DM is already hard work - so, running a PC in addition is just multitasking, and reducing each of your players' personal spotlight.

However, good suggestions for a support character :
- bard, like said before
- healer (D&D Miniatures)
- artificer (Eberron CS), to make magic items for the players and serve as a principal healer (by using wands, healing belts, etc)

Otherwise, for small groups, the gestalt variant works well.
Kratch
08-13-07, 03:15 PM All in all, I avoid running an extra NPC to balance out the party if I can avoid it. I do this mainly because I hate taking the time to actually run them in combat. In my last game, I often had a cleric with the party so they didn't have to rest after every one or two encounters. Plus, his RP fluff was the reason for a lot of their adventures. Still, sometimes you may find this necessary to run a paricular adventure.

Thats why I like bards. In combat, you cast a buff or 2, turn on their music, and forget them unless absolutely needed. By saving their spells for healing, it justifies conserving them in combat (AKA, not worrying about them), and a bard will never really appear to be DM's pet, as it's impact is not direct enough (The way it's built for use as DMPC, It's locked into the support role, as such, it's never really in the position to take away from the party), plus they can help move the plot along if the players get stumped.

the fact leadership is minimum level 6, and it forces a player to burn a feat (why should the players have to pay because the group as a whole couldn't find a 5th member?), makes it a poor option unless the players aggree to it and start beyond fifth level.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wazdakka 08-12-07, 02:06 AM	As a DM, I have a party of 3 players. One plays a druid, another a rogue, and the third a fighter. I have decided, in order to balance out the party, to play a NPC party member. Now, I thought that the druid could heal, but also fight, it might be good to support the party with a complete healing cleric. However, I worry that I may have too many healers in the group for the encounters in an adventure to be a decent challenge. Then I remember that the party does not technically have a spellcaster, and a balanced party consists of a spellcaster, divine healer, tank, and thief-figure. So I ask what would likely make a more balanced party, A sorcerer, wizard, cleric, bard, what?
Manyfist 08-12-07, 02:19 AM	Druid doesn't really need to stand back and heal. He should be up in the front-lines. Using summons, and a heal here and there, and if it goes right you shouldn't really need to heal. He should take Natural Spell, so that he doesn't have to shift out to heal/cast. In truth you probably need an Arcane Caster for an NPC. Bards are great, since they buff your party and put in extra support. Wizards, are great if you allow down time, if not Sorcerers are better. Of course if you go non-core, and still just want a heal-bot then use the Healer. Warlocks are good for the "5th wheel" type along with Bards. Beguiler is good all around, setting up some real good illusions, they can provide tactical support. Whats better than having your Rogue and Beguiler get several SA off while the target is fooled by an illusion?
Kratch 08-12-07, 02:22 AM	In those kind of cases, where most of the bases are covered, I like to add a bard NPC with heal and buff spells, and knowledge skills. The bards party support is very helpful, while never actually taking the glory away from the real PC's. and the bardic knowledge and skills allow you to insert relevent information to the PC's when needed, They help push the plot along a little when the PC's get stumped.
1 ton ghost 08-12-07, 02:27 AM	stndrd party since the 70's is... 1 heavy melee combatant (ftr, knght, brb, etc.) 1 divine/auxillary attacker 1 arcane 1 thief/rogue/scoundrel/face man/etc. you can take liberties, especially w/ an NPC, plus it's a good way to try out new material as a test run so to speak. best way to learn it is to play it IMO. you probably need some arcane (warlock, wiz/soc) typically sorcerer is easier to keep track of NPC wise thought wiz is more versatile.
BW0222 08-12-07, 10:41 AM	Wazdakka, It is a fairly balanced party. In combat, the fighter can go up front, the rogue has a buddy to gain sneak attack from, and the druid can bluff, summon, or blast more creatures down. His animal companion also serves as front-line. The druid can heal (in combat if necessary) or after combat (using wands or scrolls). Out of combat, the rogue has lots of scouting abilities and can handle city-stuff, traps, locks, etc. The druid can handle the wilderness stuff, and diplomacy if necessary. About the only thing you are missing are a few knowledge skills and the possible miscelleneous arcane spells -- most of which can be done via mundane means or with druid. I honestly don't think they need any special NPC help. It is a strong party. They may have to purchase a few extra consumables, but their damage potential for a three person party is extremely high. Most folks will drop pretty quick. Just adjust the APL of the party down one and play on. Most players will enjoy the challenge of finding ways around party deficiencies. If you need to help them out, just making friends with somene who can provide various potions and such would be helpful.
FrinkiacVII 08-12-07, 02:45 PM	What level are the party PCs at now? If they're level 1, then they can probably live without an arcane spellcaster for a few levels, tho by level 5-6 they might begin to notice they could use one. If they're level 10, I think they'll definitely need an arcane spallcaster. The wizard at level 1 is pretty weak compared to the fighter, as the level 1 wizard gets only a few spells per day and ends up shooting his crossbow or bow a lot. At level 10, there are things that ONLY an arcane spellcaster can do (tho the same could be said for the Cleric, e.g. Raise Dead). So, if they're level 1, I'd go cleric, if they're level 4, something arcane.
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-12-07, 02:57 PM	If you're working at high enough levels, an arcanist can do some healing in emergencies anyway, as long as he hasn't just leveled up recently. Limited Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm) can emulate Heal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heal.htm) because the Adept (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/adept.htm) NPC class gets it as a level 5 spell.
Jaxgaret 08-12-07, 04:21 PM	I would say that, as a DMPC character, you do not want your NPC to dominate the party or be the primary problem solver. As such, I would recommend against a full arcanist. A Bard would be a great addition to the party as a buffer and secondary healer, without overshadowing the rest of the party.
Treantmonklvl20 08-12-07, 04:58 PM	The 3 person party you've mentioned is fairly well balanced. If I was going to cut one member of the iconic four, the arcane caster would be it. An NPC should be someone who is a background character - someone who doesn't steal the limelight from the characters - wizard or sorcerer is a bad choice for this. I would suggest either: A) Nothing - let the increased XP the characters get take care of them itself. B) Bard - specializing in buffing/healing. Purely support of the real heroes. C) Any pure healbot - how about a pacifist - cleric?
Kratch 08-13-07, 03:31 AM	You make a decision yet? I'm curious what you chose to add.
Ian Demagi 08-13-07, 12:01 PM	I am not a big believer in DMNPC in 3.5 Ed. There are well developed rules for co-horts, let one of the players take leadership and choose a cohort, but its your game. Healing is covered with Druid & UMD by Rogue. A generalist wizard completes this party, my 2 coopers, Ian.
RobbyPants 08-13-07, 12:48 PM	All in all, I avoid running an extra NPC to balance out the party if I can avoid it. I do this mainly because I hate taking the time to actually run them in combat. In my last game, I often had a cleric with the party so they didn't have to rest after every one or two encounters. Plus, his RP fluff was the reason for a lot of their adventures. Still, sometimes you may find this necessary to run a paricular adventure. Here are my suggestions: Cleric - the cleric can probably perfom a lot like the druid: a good solid mix of front-line melee, buffs, and healing. This won't make the party more versitle, but it will make it stronger. Wizard/Sorcerer - this will be more versitile, but you may find running a caster NPC to be too much bookkeeping. If you want to cut down on bookkeeping, go with sorcerer. If you want to have lots of versitility, go with wizard. If you are allowing non-core classes, consider a dragon shaman (PHBII) instead of a bard. They are also good 5th wheel, buff types. They aren't great at any one role, but they can support any role quite well. You'll get persistant buffs from auras (great for front-line melee), minor healing, moderate tanking, and minor but limitelss blasting. I might conisder using this to augment the other PCs. Plus, with the fast healing aura (that brings them up to half HP), the druid can conserve spells that would be otherwise used for healing.
Lawkeeper 08-13-07, 02:01 PM	I am not a big believer in DMNPC in 3.5 Ed. There are well developed rules for co-horts, let one of the players take leadership and choose a cohort, but its your game. Healing is covered with Druid & UMD by Rogue. A generalist wizard completes this party, my 2 coopers, Ian. I second that. Running a game as a DM is already hard work - so, running a PC in addition is just multitasking, and reducing each of your players' personal spotlight. However, good suggestions for a support character : - bard, like said before - healer (D&D Miniatures) - artificer (Eberron CS), to make magic items for the players and serve as a principal healer (by using wands, healing belts, etc) Otherwise, for small groups, the gestalt variant works well.
Kratch 08-13-07, 03:15 PM	All in all, I avoid running an extra NPC to balance out the party if I can avoid it. I do this mainly because I hate taking the time to actually run them in combat. In my last game, I often had a cleric with the party so they didn't have to rest after every one or two encounters. Plus, his RP fluff was the reason for a lot of their adventures. Still, sometimes you may find this necessary to run a paricular adventure. Thats why I like bards. In combat, you cast a buff or 2, turn on their music, and forget them unless absolutely needed. By saving their spells for healing, it justifies conserving them in combat (AKA, not worrying about them), and a bard will never really appear to be DM's pet, as it's impact is not direct enough (The way it's built for use as DMPC, It's locked into the support role, as such, it's never really in the position to take away from the party), plus they can help move the plot along if the players get stumped. the fact leadership is minimum level 6, and it forces a player to burn a feat (why should the players have to pay because the group as a whole couldn't find a 5th member?), makes it a poor option unless the players aggree to it and start beyond fifth level.