Cleric vs. Favored Soul [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cleric vs. Favored Soul [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Licínio Miranda
10-03-06, 10:20 AM Hi folks,

I´m trying to tell a friend that the Cleric is the most powerfull (along the Druid) class on D&D.

----------- This is not something for min/max or munchikins. --------------

The problem is that, as the new DM, I said: no Clerics. Only Favored Soul.

He started to cry and whinny and all that stuff saying that the Favored Soul is much more powerfull than the Cleric, because he has good bonus on all resistances, etc, etc... I tryied to tell him about the terrible monster knowns as CoDzilla (I done somehting about the Druid too... he he) but he doesn´t care.

What I need, guys, is that you all tell here why the Cleric is much more powerfull than the Favored Soul, please! :D
Ghstwynd
10-03-06, 11:30 AM Truthfully, in my opinion, if its not a min/max thing, then it could go either way.

The Cleric has way more flexibility when it comes to the spells he prepares, having access to all cleric spells at any given time, not to mention domain spells the Favored Soul cant learn (if using certain domains). He also has turning which can seriously save your bacon, especially at low levels, and also grants access to divine feats. Heavy armor also heals a lot in the lower levels. The cleric makes a slightly better offensive caster (at least better DC’s) with one casting stat instead of having to split it.

On the other hand, the Favored Soul has more flexibility with the spells he knows. If he is expecting to cast cure light wounds and vigor all day, but finds he needs a hand full of protection from evil spells, if all are on his list, it’s an easy swap. With the cleric it’s “What you prepare is what you get” except for cure spells. On that note, if the FS learns extend spell, he can extend a vigor between combat and more than out heal a cure moderate wounds of the same level if he needs to. A cleric would have to foresee the need and set it up ahead of time. The FS tends to work better for me in combat, given the “free” martial proficiency/focus/Specialization and the fact that with dark leaf/mithral armor, he can have the same AC as a cleric. The resistances are nice and the FS saves are well rounded and slightly better for me, ending up with a little less will, but more reflex, although some would still prefer the better will save.

In the end they both have advantages, and in truth, are both very powerful. In my experience I’ve found the cleric has supreme flexibility and is easier to abuse if it goes to a min/max thing. The FS is a bit better in combat, can cast/heal more, but usually ends up in the “buff, fight, heal, repeat” rut, and if he needs some abstract spell, he’s going to have to spring for a scroll or be out of luck. If the party needs someone who can turn to open the magically sealed door to the temple ruins, better hope someone has a good UMD.

However, in the end, you’re the DM, and your word is law. You may be right, wrong, or otherwise, but it’s your game, and if you don’t want clerics/druids/artificers/archivist/warlocks (yes, even I have to snicker at that, but more than one DM has banned them)/Warshapers/Fochlucan Lyrist or any other class/PrC you deem to powerful, that’s your call. Remember Rule 0. I don’t know if this helped or hindered, but it’s my 2cp. Good luck…

Ghost.
Archangel62
10-03-06, 11:55 AM Given that both have an identical BaB the only concern is saves and special abilities. Saves are iffy since Reflex saves are uncertain in terms of power against a cleric at higher levels.

Access to domains, spells and granted powers, are only cleric access. Also, the cleric gets access to the full spell list wheras the favored soul has to choose which ones they can have on their known list. Spontaneity can be powerful but generally will not be as potent as you'd think.

The Favored soul might be a bit more effective as a combat monkey for the spontaneous stuff but I believe that the cleric would still win if we were to do a comparative trial for a set of encounters. When you can access your full list the need to prepare spells sort of becomes less of an issue because you still have everything on your list.

Also, the turning abilities are what allow for the destruction of undead and access to divine feats. Your DM might be doing this mostly to keep the game under control as he sees it. Then again it might also be thematics.
danielinthewolvesden
10-03-06, 12:29 PM Cleric is more powerful as they have Turning. Turning leads to many cool Divine Feats.

However, oh DM- what's wrong with Cleric? Most folks don;t want to play a Divine caster at all- most of the time, despite the "CoDzilla fallacy" (and "fallacy" it is, in real around the table gaming), the poor Divine caster ends up being the HealBot.

If you want to stop 90% of the powergaming possible from "CoDZilla", then ban The Feats "Divine Metamagic" and "Natural Casting", and a couple of the Cleric "self-only-buff" spells.
BloodSpill
10-03-06, 12:44 PM What I need, guys, is that you all tell here why the Cleric is much more powerfull than the Favored Soul, please! :D

The exact same reason that Wizards are better than Sorcerers, or that Erudites are 'better' than Wilders. Unless you don't believe that, but the principle applies.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Licínio Miranda 10-03-06, 10:20 AM	Hi folks, I´m trying to tell a friend that the Cleric is the most powerfull (along the Druid) class on D&D. ----------- This is not something for min/max or munchikins. -------------- The problem is that, as the new DM, I said: no Clerics. Only Favored Soul. He started to cry and whinny and all that stuff saying that the Favored Soul is much more powerfull than the Cleric, because he has good bonus on all resistances, etc, etc... I tryied to tell him about the terrible monster knowns as CoDzilla (I done somehting about the Druid too... he he) but he doesn´t care. What I need, guys, is that you all tell here why the Cleric is much more powerfull than the Favored Soul, please! :D
Ghstwynd 10-03-06, 11:30 AM	Truthfully, in my opinion, if its not a min/max thing, then it could go either way. The Cleric has way more flexibility when it comes to the spells he prepares, having access to all cleric spells at any given time, not to mention domain spells the Favored Soul cant learn (if using certain domains). He also has turning which can seriously save your bacon, especially at low levels, and also grants access to divine feats. Heavy armor also heals a lot in the lower levels. The cleric makes a slightly better offensive caster (at least better DC’s) with one casting stat instead of having to split it. On the other hand, the Favored Soul has more flexibility with the spells he knows. If he is expecting to cast cure light wounds and vigor all day, but finds he needs a hand full of protection from evil spells, if all are on his list, it’s an easy swap. With the cleric it’s “What you prepare is what you get” except for cure spells. On that note, if the FS learns extend spell, he can extend a vigor between combat and more than out heal a cure moderate wounds of the same level if he needs to. A cleric would have to foresee the need and set it up ahead of time. The FS tends to work better for me in combat, given the “free” martial proficiency/focus/Specialization and the fact that with dark leaf/mithral armor, he can have the same AC as a cleric. The resistances are nice and the FS saves are well rounded and slightly better for me, ending up with a little less will, but more reflex, although some would still prefer the better will save. In the end they both have advantages, and in truth, are both very powerful. In my experience I’ve found the cleric has supreme flexibility and is easier to abuse if it goes to a min/max thing. The FS is a bit better in combat, can cast/heal more, but usually ends up in the “buff, fight, heal, repeat” rut, and if he needs some abstract spell, he’s going to have to spring for a scroll or be out of luck. If the party needs someone who can turn to open the magically sealed door to the temple ruins, better hope someone has a good UMD. However, in the end, you’re the DM, and your word is law. You may be right, wrong, or otherwise, but it’s your game, and if you don’t want clerics/druids/artificers/archivist/warlocks (yes, even I have to snicker at that, but more than one DM has banned them)/Warshapers/Fochlucan Lyrist or any other class/PrC you deem to powerful, that’s your call. Remember Rule 0. I don’t know if this helped or hindered, but it’s my 2cp. Good luck… Ghost.
Archangel62 10-03-06, 11:55 AM	Given that both have an identical BaB the only concern is saves and special abilities. Saves are iffy since Reflex saves are uncertain in terms of power against a cleric at higher levels. Access to domains, spells and granted powers, are only cleric access. Also, the cleric gets access to the full spell list wheras the favored soul has to choose which ones they can have on their known list. Spontaneity can be powerful but generally will not be as potent as you'd think. The Favored soul might be a bit more effective as a combat monkey for the spontaneous stuff but I believe that the cleric would still win if we were to do a comparative trial for a set of encounters. When you can access your full list the need to prepare spells sort of becomes less of an issue because you still have everything on your list. Also, the turning abilities are what allow for the destruction of undead and access to divine feats. Your DM might be doing this mostly to keep the game under control as he sees it. Then again it might also be thematics.
danielinthewolvesden 10-03-06, 12:29 PM	Cleric is more powerful as they have Turning. Turning leads to many cool Divine Feats. However, oh DM- what's wrong with Cleric? Most folks don;t want to play a Divine caster at all- most of the time, despite the "CoDzilla fallacy" (and "fallacy" it is, in real around the table gaming), the poor Divine caster ends up being the HealBot. If you want to stop 90% of the powergaming possible from "CoDZilla", then ban The Feats "Divine Metamagic" and "Natural Casting", and a couple of the Cleric "self-only-buff" spells.
BloodSpill 10-03-06, 12:44 PM	What I need, guys, is that you all tell here why the Cleric is much more powerfull than the Favored Soul, please! :D The exact same reason that Wizards are better than Sorcerers, or that Erudites are 'better' than Wilders. Unless you don't believe that, but the principle applies.