Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lokor_69 07-14-07, 02:50 AM	LvL.15 human ,only from palyers handbook 3.5,complete arcane ,and complete divine. Magic eqiupment up to 15,000gp. No nightstick build. just wanted to see what peope think about it . thank you.:D
Wrong 07-14-07, 04:34 AM	If you allow complete divine, you have to also allow something more to the warlock, Fiendish Codex II for hellfire or Dragon Magic.
JadeSpider9643 07-14-07, 06:41 AM	straight lvl 15 cleric vs straight lvl 15 warlock? no PRCs? well the cleric no doubt has more staying power, if the warlock's gonna have a chance he'll have to disable the cleric somehow, best shot I think is to use Noxious Blast and hope you can get the cleric to fail his fort save quickly. use eldritch cone for the auto-hit, even if he makes his save he still takes half damage and more importantly has to try a fort save. clerics have good fort saves though so it won't be easy. ultimately it depends on the details, but I don't like the warlock's chances.
runestar 07-14-07, 06:48 AM	I am pretty sure a core cleric should win with minimal difficulties, though I admit I am not familiar with the warlock since I do not own CA. Couldn't the cleric just cast greater planar ally, use the 15,000gp to pay the outsider and instruct him to kill the warlock? A pitfiend or planetar happens to fit the bill just nicely...
Nykidemus 07-14-07, 07:05 AM	A lot of this depends on how much prep time they're given before the fight. Warlock can generally be up and running with 1-2 rounds (Mostly for Fell Flight,) whereas most clerics who want to really run in and make with the beating use a lot of buffs. Then again, cleric gets save or die spells around that level and warlock has pretty poor Fort.
AnonymousInternets 07-14-07, 08:38 AM	It's really easy to make a high-Cleric kill almost all classes, save Druids, Clerics, and Artificers [or possibly a well-played Arcanist]. If the Cleric was able to build himself up for the specific purpose of said duel, it would win hands down. Lv15 Flame Strike Nuker Cleric... Abilities: Wis 18+ (use 3 level points and/or items if needed), Cha 12+ (4 turn uses) Items: Anything. Hell, you could go VoP on this one. 7 Feats: Extra Turning (8 turn uses total), Empower Spell, Sudden Maximize, Twin Spell + Divine Metamagic, 2 of Anything (Improved Initiative?) Flame Strike (15d6, Ref DC 19 half, Spell slot 5) Empower Spell (15d6+50%, Ref DC 19 half, Spell slot 8) Sudden Maximize (135, Ref DC 19 half, Spell slot 8 + 4 turn uses) Twin Spell, Divine Metamagic [Twin] (135 x2, Ref DC 19 half x2, Spell slot 8 + 8 turn uses) If the Warlock has the average hit points for his level, he would need 22 Con to survive (a Warlock with that many Con will suck at most everything else). Even if his hit dice were MAXIMIZED, he'd still need 16 Con. If the Warlock uses a debilitating effect, it will probably last only one round. Also, at level 15, a Warlock gets no Dark Invocations, so he'd still be using his crappier stuff at that point. Not only this, but the Cleric can make most Fort and Will saves, and has enough hit points to resist strong blasts. If you're gonna throw away optimized builds, then I'd ask you what a Warlock--the master of situational self-convenience--is doing in a duel against a Cleric--the master of pretty much everything in battle.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 07-14-07, 08:45 AM	Why the strange limitation on magic items?
starfalconkd 07-14-07, 09:21 AM	Cleric. At 15th level he can protect himself from almost every attack the warlock has (starting with Spell Immunity: Eldritch Blast) and the warlock's poor fort save means the cleric will be able to finish him quickly using slay living, harm, or any other spell that would cause death.
runestar 07-14-07, 10:04 AM	I don't think eldritch blast is a legal target for spell immunity (it is not a valid spell you can select from any spell list), though you could cast spell resistance to gain some measure of protection against it. In a pinch, AMF could work as well. Pity initiate of mystra is not allowed...:P
Lord_Zeb 07-14-07, 10:16 AM	Well, it depends. Warlock can defend himself a bit as well, especially if he gain access to magical items: Resist Energy(Fire)+Protection from Fire potions makes him fairly immune to Flame Strike, for instance. Or why not a Ring of Major Fire resistance? Which he would have access to with his Imbue item ability... Do not think Spell Immunity(Eldritch Blast) would be acceptable for a general immunity, as one would need Spell Immunity(Noxious Eldritch Blast), Spell Immunity(Brimstone Blast) and so on for each type of Eldritch blast he can conjure. And even if the DM would rule it so, it would still not make the Warlock too incapacitated as he still got plenty of other powers, including Use Magic Device for access to any spell through Wands. And he can sneak up on the Cleric quite easily with Fly & Invisibility (both granted by Lesser Invocations) so it also depends on the situation. But, in a gladiatorial environment... with a few Rounds to prepare (Cleric buffing himself, Warlock drinking potions), I would still not be that certain of who would win. Would depend on how they were played and what powers/items they got. ;) But in general: With proper preparations (including casting Divination spells to see what the Warlock has for powers and items), I would favour the Cleric. And without preps, I would favour the Warlock (since he got all his powers accessable at all times).
Treantmonklvl20 07-14-07, 12:52 PM	First fight of the day? The Cleric wins without breaking a sweat. The 10th fight of the day? The Warlock wins without breaking a sweat. The 5th fight of the day? Things get interesting. Overall I would have to give edge to the Cleric since most days don't have 10 fights. I was playing last night and our Beguiler RAN OUT OF SPELLS. The player has retired him in frusturation, and will be replacing him with a Warlock. Not every fight is the first fight of the day.
Mordar 07-14-07, 01:02 PM	the cleric would win straight up because he has acces to a variety of spells, turn undead (and divine feats), heavy armor, 2 good saves, etc, spells are far more superior than an eldricht blast but then again, a good warlock with well planned prc's (eldricht disciple/theurge, hellfire warlock, etc), UMD abuse and choice of invocations could stay alive for a while cleric has flexibility while warlock has stamina in most fights
Jell_Moo 07-14-07, 01:12 PM	Jeez, the stuff that the Cleric can summon will beat the Warlock... It's kind of like asking "Who would win in a fight? Megatron or a 2 legged retarded ferret that is prone to narcolepsy."
Treantmonklvl20 07-14-07, 01:49 PM	Jeez, the stuff that the Cleric can summon will beat the Warlock... It's kind of like asking "Who would win in a fight? Megatron or a 2 legged retarded ferret that is prone to narcolepsy." :rofl: Not a Warlock fan? Agreed though - If Cleric has full spells, he has no end to options - the Warlock has very limited options (they don't get many invocations, and those they have are less powerful than spells a straight caster would get at equivalent levels). Seems pretty straight forward. Never mind the fact the Cleric has superior armor. The Warlocks chief ability is the ability to use invocations without limit. In any "duel" with full spellcasters, assuming the spellcaster has full spells, this is not a fair fight, as the Warlocks chief ability won't come into play. In actual roleplaying though - the ability is Very nice (see my example from yesterday above. Beguilers have sorcerer castings - that's lots of spells, but they STILL run out occassionally. He had only 0 level spells left. It was sad "I cast....Daze":mad: )
Lucas Blackstone 07-14-07, 01:58 PM	It depends on the dueling area. And prep time. And how much they know about the other class. Generally the cleric should win due to being superior in nearly every way. If he happens to have most of his spell compliment gone then of course he will probably lose, but I don't think that is the type of unfair situation the OP was looking for.
Lord_Zeb 07-14-07, 02:08 PM	Cleric got superior armor, but Warlock do at least got Light armor = Medium Mithral armor. Difference between AC 8 and AC 5 is not that great, considering that the Warlock want to have high Dex anyway to hit well with his Eldrich blast ray attacks. On top of that he also got a little Damage reduction and Energy resistances... so it will not be that hard. On the other hand the Cleric got d8 HD while the Warlock got d6 as well as needing to prioritize Cha and Dex, possibly neglecting Con. Cleric do want high Wis and Cha though, and preferrably high Str and Con, while the Warlock can treat Str as a pure Dump characteristic. (He can use Simple weapons... but why should he? And even then he is better suited to fly around and put Heavy Crossbow bolts into the Cleric.) Both got benefits... but it still depends on wether the Cleric is ready for the Warlock or not. Not spells chosen to suit fighting a Warlock? - Possibly an even fight, but it will be a bit random then. Few spells ready? - Warlock tend to win. No spells left at all? - Warlock wins all the time. Cleric has scryed ahead and know that he will meet a Warlock as well as know what powers the warlock has, and is smart enough to choose suiting spells to counter the Warlock's strategies - Cleric should win. So, in theory: Cleric wins, as he can take a little bit more damage, as well as got more powerful spells and counter-ability. In practice: Warlock wins more often than you think. ;)
ravenshrike 07-14-07, 02:22 PM	Cleric. At 15th level he can protect himself from almost every attack the warlock has (starting with Spell Immunity: Eldritch Blast) and the warlock's poor fort save means the cleric will be able to finish him quickly using slay living, harm, or any other spell that would cause death. Given that the 'lock has access to EVERY SPELL EVER, this is untrue. For that matter, if the 'lock grabs craft contingent spell, he will win hands down even if he burns enough xp to go down two levels. Not to mention this: Spell immunity protects against spells, spell-like effects of magic items, and innate spell-like abilities The 'locks SLA is none of the above, because if it was the third option, the 'lock could take supernatural transformation. Since the 'lock supposedly cannot take supernatural transformation because the EB is a class feature and thereby not innate, this means the spell immunity does not work against it. And if he could take ST, then SI wouldn't apply anyway if indeed he took it.
danielinthewolvesden 07-14-07, 02:29 PM	You know folks, the clerics heavy armour ability is often mentioned. However, here- since the Warlock uses a ranged touch attach, it is useless. And, in any cae, few folks ever wear heavy armour anyway. 3rd ed has seriously nerfed all armour outside light armour, so that is all (almost) anyone wears. If you build a cleric from ground up to beat a certain known foe, the cleric can beat them. However, that is unrealistic and not done in IRL D&D. Now, if you had a pretty normal cleric, with a normal assortment of spells and feats, built for a normal days adventuring, then we have a different battle. In this case, the warlock (built the same, for a normal adventuring day) stays well out of range of most anything in the clerics arsenal, and plinks him to death. The warlock will be invisible and flying. If the cleric is buffed, the warlock can bombard the cleric with Voracious dispeliing. Yes, if the warlock allows a buffed cleric to melee him, the cleric will clean his clock, but why should the warlock do that? It is true, the cleric has Dispel Magic too- most likey memorized once. AnonymousInternets posits a cleric who could kill a warlock with one shot- assuming the warlock is within range, and does not have Resist fire up- which he should. But the cleric only gets one of those shots.
Lord_Zeb 07-14-07, 03:10 PM	Invocations and Eldritch blast are actually Spell-like abilities, so Spell immunity could protect from them. IF the Cleric specifies the correct abilities. (He can gain immunity to up to 3 spell-like abilities at 3rd). But, as Eldritch Blast can be modified, I would rule that he only gain Eldritch Blast immunity to all versions the Warlock could blast if he specifies Immunity to Eldritch Blast + all Eldritch Essence invocations the Warlock has. (If he only takes immunity to some of them, it might take a while before the Warlock figures out which combination still damages the Cleric though.) As for a standard Cleric setup for Adventure... He should have Dispel magic, Invisibility Purge, True Seeing as well as some combat spells (if not Spell Immunity), so the Cleric would stand a decent chance unless ambushed. As the Warlock can reactivate his abilities each Turn, that chance would be a bit slim though. ;)
JadeSpider9643 07-14-07, 04:50 PM	some people noted that clerics have an advantage because they have heavy armor? that's completely meaningless vs a warlock, he's probably better off naked, he might get back a point or 2 of dex bonus to his AC. and if the cleric uses any of his size-increasing melee buffs, that only makes things easier for the warlock to hit. the real problem here for the warlock is that he probably can't do enough damage fast enough to out-pace the cleric's ability to heal himself before the cleric can kill him, because the warlock can get some really light healing, he probably can't keep pace with both the damage output AND the self-healing of the cleric. for the warlock to win, he's going to have to have some kind of "trick". Mabye stay at range with invisibility and dispel magic until the cleric runs out of ways to see him, and then close to melee and land some bestow curses and lower the clerics wis until he can't cast spells anymore. is it foolproof? no, but it'd be a shot. but i think noxious blast is still his best chance, it lasts a minute, and if you can get the cleric to fail a fort save he's dead in the water.
SmiloDan 07-14-07, 05:28 PM	With Eldritch Spear, the Warlock can stay 250 feet away and still hit, so the cleric can only use Medium (at 15th level) and Long range spells. All the Warlock has to do is run away for an hour, dodging the Cleric's spells (maybe using Dark One's Own Luck to boost Fort or Reflex saves), and then snipe away. And I've found Con to be the best stat for a Warlock. You can build a Warlock so it uses powers that don't allow saves, so you can dump Cha (unless using Dark One's Own Luck), dump Str, and just worry about Con, Int (for skills), Dex and Wis. But it all depends on the situation. Is it a bar fight, a battle outdoors, in an arena, in a dungeon labyrinth, a forest with cover, on ships in the middle of the ocean, etc. etc. Also, a relatively wise Warlock will ready an action to blast when the cleric is casting.....a DC 10 + spell level + 7d6 Concentration check is STILL pretty difficult, especially when Empower SLA, Maximize SLA, and Quicken SLA is taken into account.
Treantmonklvl20 07-14-07, 06:08 PM	some people noted that clerics have an advantage because they have heavy armor? that's completely meaningless vs a warlock, he's probably better off naked, he might get back a point or 2 of dex bonus to his AC. and if the cleric uses any of his size-increasing melee buffs, that only makes things easier for the warlock to hit. . This was mentioned a couple times since my pointing it out... I agree against a regular EB armor is meaningless. However, an appropriately built Warlock (Ex. Half-Orc High Str, Dump Int, Wis, Cha) facing an unarmored Cleric might go in for Hideous Blow with the EB. The chance the Cleric might be wearing heavy armor makes this build much less attractive.
ravenshrike 07-14-07, 10:52 PM	Invocations and Eldritch blast are actually Spell-like abilities, so Spell immunity could protect from them. IF the Cleric specifies the correct abilities. (He can gain immunity to up to 3 spell-like abilities at 3rd). They are not INNATE, however. Key wording. This has been noted as the exact reason that warlocks cannot take the Supernatural Transformation feat. They are granted by the class. Unless a SLA is innate, spell immunity does nothing. Spell immunity protects against spells, spell-like effects of magic items, and innate spell-like abilities The warlock EB is none of the above.
Twylyght 07-15-07, 04:24 AM	Well if the warlock wins iniative, a readied action to use chilling tentacles could be pretty entertaining... The tentacles at 15th should have a grapple check of +23, pretty good shot against most cleric builds.
PhaedrusXY 07-15-07, 04:29 AM	Well if the warlock wins iniative, a readied action to use chilling tentacles could be pretty entertaining... The tentacles at 15th should have a grapple check of +23, pretty good shot against most cleric builds.Freedom of Movement? Travel Domain? Unless the person playing the warlock is just more skilled than the person playing the cleric, the cleric should win easily. Cleric is a MUCH stronger class overall than Warlock, and the 15K gold limitation penalizes the Warlock much more heavily than it does the cleric. One of the most powerful things the Warlock can do is use wizard scrolls with Use Magic Device. The cleric doesn't even need magic armor and weapons. He can give his gear enhancement bonuses "for free" with a couple of spellslots. He also has the most impressive array of defensive spells in the game, and can spontaneously heal himself...
starfalconkd 07-15-07, 10:22 AM	The 'locks SLA is none of the above, because if it was the third option, the 'lock could take supernatural transformation. Since the 'lock supposedly cannot take supernatural transformation because the EB is a class feature and thereby not innate, this means the spell immunity does not work against it. And if he could take ST, then SI wouldn't apply anyway if indeed he took it. But, the Warlock's Eldritch Blast is "the equivalent of a first level spell" and "is subject to spell resistance" according to the Complete Arcane errata. So I would think it's fine. I might be worth asking to see if this should be included in the FAQ under Warlock. Especially since there really weren't "learned spell-like abilities" when the book was printed.
Tectorman 07-15-07, 11:48 AM	But, the Warlock's Eldritch Blast is "the equivalent of a first level spell" and "is subject to spell resistance" according to the Complete Arcane errata. So I would think it's fine. I might be worth asking to see if this should be included in the FAQ under Warlock. Especially since there really weren't "learned spell-like abilities" when the book was printed. True, but then we need to define "innate". My understanding is that an innate SLA would be one the character has by virtue of being a member of "such-n-such" race. I mean, Warlock doesn't change the character's type. The fiendish or fey heritage doesn't actually exist in any of the crunch (just in the fluff). Look at it this way. A human Sorcerer 7 can cast spells as a 7th-level Sorcerer, but he doesn't have an "innate spells per day". You take a Rakshasa or a Dragon (don't have my MM out in front of me, sorry), and they can cast spells as an nth-level Sorcerer, but this time it's innate. Same difference.
NobodyRemembersThis 07-15-07, 12:15 PM	This has actually already been covered. Spell Immunity only protects against secific spells and SLA's that mimic spells. It cannot be used against SLA's that do not mimic an existing spell. So Spell Immunity doesn't work, as written, against Eldritch Blast. Destruction (Minimum Fort save DC 21 at 15th level) will end this fight before it begins. If a Cleric has the best periapt he can buy (buff unneeded), then the minimum save is 22 - 23 if the cleric has Spell Focus (Necromancy). This is without optimization, mind you. A warlock will have a very, very hard time against this. An unbuffed cleric could just close on the Warlock and hit AMF - a cleric without magic spells and items should easily outlast a warlock with the same limitations due to better armor and more HP.
EvilVegan 07-15-07, 01:01 PM	If a cleric is wasting his actions healing or buffing themself how is he dealing damage to the warlock? Tentacles is a good opening spell for the warlock because the cleric has to counter it, either by moving or casting freedom of movement. So far I've just seen that the cleric is winning because he can cast spells to counter the warlock, but if he's only reacting he's going to lose because every round he spends reacting is a new round for the warlock to do something new to react to. Eventually the cleric will run out of reactive spells or spells all together and lose. The only way he can win is with damage or save or dies at medium or longer range, both of which are slightly lacking on a cleric (compared to a wizard at least). I still like the cleric's odds, because he's got more bang per buck, but the warlock does have unlimited bucks. Whoever wins initiative has to keep the other one busy reacting. If the warlock wins he can drain a reactive cleric with relatively easy tactics.
danielinthewolvesden 07-15-07, 02:41 PM	Freedom of Movement? Travel Domain? .. If the cleric knows the warlock will use that Invocation.:uh-huh:
Einvaldurinn_mikli 07-15-07, 02:47 PM	If the cleric knows the warlock will use that Invocation.:uh-huh: Wait, you really think that a 15th level Cleric won't have at least one Freedom of Movement prepared? That's an awesome spell.
Empiro 07-15-07, 03:14 PM	I don't see either of them winning. No warlock is stupid enough to get close enough to be targetted by a touch or close range spell like Destruction. Likewise, the cleric has numerous options for escaping with spells like Word of Recall. Most likely, if the cleric has time to prepare, he'd prepare nothing but Spiritual Weapon and Darkfire, with a few rods of energy subsitution of various elements. If Spell Immunity worked against EB, then the battle would be a victory for the Cleric, with the Warlock withdrawing, otherwise, it's a victory for the Warlock, with the cleric withdrawing.
Erato 07-15-07, 03:43 PM	I would say the cleric. Better hd and saves, and ability to 'nova'. If the Cleric had expended all/most of his spells, it would of course favor the Warlock. Altough the restriction on gear could mean that the Cleric lacks access to a flying-effect of some kind, which all self-respecting level 15 characters would normally have.
JadeSpider9643 07-15-07, 04:47 PM	imo, this all comes down to how much prep time they get. a unbuffed cleric, even with his full assortment of well chosen spells, is gonna be struggeling to buff/heal himself and counter the warlocks tricks AND get some offense going. a fully & freshly buffed cleric on the other hand will probably make short work of the warlock. of course there's also the matter of who makes the most dispell magic checks successfully.
Tealgorthian 07-15-07, 04:52 PM	The Cleric should crush the Warlock. Probably in one round.
Erato 07-15-07, 06:10 PM	I don't think it's that important for the Cleric to buff himself. Granted, some of his best spells are for buffing himself, but most likely he will have more than enough attack spells to kill the Warlock, as well as some active 1 hour/level buffs that are already active.
lord_xarallon 07-15-07, 07:11 PM	I don't like threads like this because they way that is being argued. "If the warlock does x then the cleric just does y." and "Well then the warlock has z..." And so on. Have the battle. Then it can be settled instead of the pointless argument. I'm willing to be one of the combetants. I'll go for the warlock if I must choose, because I want to prove they can do something. Isn't there somewhere on these boards where battles can be done?
Tealgorthian 07-15-07, 08:20 PM	I don't like threads like this because they way that is being argued. "If the warlock does x then the cleric just does y." and "Well then the warlock has z..." And so on. Have the battle. Then it can be settled instead of the pointless argument. I'm willing to be one of the combetants. I'll go for the warlock if I must choose, because I want to prove they can do something. Isn't there somewhere on these boards where battles can be done? I love Warlocks. But I know they aren't damage machines. They need a party to support them. A Warlock with Repelling Blast, Wall of Perilous Flame, Chilling Tentacles and Eldritch Chain can make for a VERY effect battlefield controller. But Clerics are just stupidly powerful. Sheer amount of save-or-dies they can toss at a Warlock just makes me squeemish. The one thing a Warlock has over the Cleric is access to Use Magic Device. Even that isn't so important if the Cleric takes the Magic Domain (use items like a Wizard of half cleric level). Warlocks rock. But they aren't good in single combat. Clerics are good at, well, everything :\
Dalthbar 07-15-07, 08:40 PM	Just saying that an EB is the "equivalent of a 1st level spell" doesn't mean it's a spell. It behaves like one in some regards, but Spell Immunity doesn't protect against "things that sometimes act like spells" - it protects against spells, plain and simple. That and the whole innate thing pretty much seals the deal that Spell Immunity can't block an EB.
lord_xarallon 07-15-07, 08:45 PM	It all depends. If the warlock wins initiative, fires a blast, and then rolls three natural 20's. Warlock wins. It could happen.
sigma999 07-15-07, 09:02 PM	Cleric.
Mordar 07-15-07, 09:12 PM	It all depends. If the warlock wins initiative, fires a blast, and then rolls three natural 20's. Warlock wins. It could happen. or maximize spell-like ability for that matter, with hellfire warlock PRC and psishot path he could do very good damage to the cleric
Anodai 07-15-07, 09:18 PM	Remember: Half the damage is fire damage, but the other half results directly from divine power and is therefore not subject to being reduced by resistance to fire-based attacks. Comparing what IMHO are the main damage 'spell' of each class at that level: Eldrich blast does 7d6 damage, flame strike does 15d6. 15th level cleric probably has at least an empowered flame strike, maybe empowered. warlock could empower/maximize spell like ability but a maximized 15th level Eldrich blast does 42 damage while the flame strike does, on average, 45 without maximization/empowerment. Now for HP. The warlock's average base hp without con at that level is 45, assuming +2 con is 95. A Clerics average base HP without con is 71, +2 con is 101. I understand that the constitutions are subject to change, but the point is that the cleric has more health. Hell, if the warlock has no constitution modifier at all the cleric could pick him off with a lucky flame strike. Other main abilities. Destruction kicks warlock butt, save DC with Lowest possible wisdom modifier is 20, probably closer to 22-23. warlock needs +5 to +8 in items/constitution to have an even chance of making the save. Which he won't. statistically it eats him alive. Sickening blast will give the cleric-2 to his attacks, damage with weapon, saves, skills, and ability checks. not as big a penalty. Average save DC is 12 w/ no modifier, assuming +5 modifier is 17. cleric w/ no fortitude at all gets +9, so on average he will make the save. Evard's black tentacles, while it would be an amazing option, is negated by the clerics freedom of movement. Sounds like warlock looses to me... Also: If the characters have time to buff up the things go all over. Warlock flies, invisibles, and fire resistances, slightly reducing flame strike damage. Cleric makes himself big and smacky, resistances go everywhere, and no one has any idea what happens. for that reason I'm not going to deal with it. The OP already said no books besides PHB, CArc and Cdiv. To anyone who says Hellfire warlock I say venomfire + Poision fang graft + spit venom + empower/maximize. :evillaugh EDIT: lol, 3 people posted after me while I was editing.
JTalbain 07-15-07, 09:28 PM	I think everyone who is arguing for the Warlock is assuming that he's going to be flying and invisible, and is assuming unrestricted movement. That said... I'm trying to figure out the way the cleric is supposedly going to locate the lock to target him with anything. The cleric may be flying (although, if this is due to an item, it'll be infinitely easier for the lock to dispel), and he may have see invisibility, invisibility purge, and true seeing available, but don't all of these spells have a maximum range of 60 feet? If the lock is invisible and Eldritch Spears the cleric from maximum range, the cleric is going to be hard pressed to do anything to react. As someone has already stated, Eldritch Spear and Invisibility turns this fight into a sniping duel, and the Cleric's short range spells, which are by far his most devastating, never come into play. The Warlock will never close to melee with the cleric (in fact, he'll probably never come withing 60 feet), and the Cleric lacks the proper tools to be able to play the Warlock's game. Even the AMF isn't a sure defense, as the Warlock can use his Acidic EB (forget the name) which makes it not subject to spell resistance or the AMF (it becomes an instantaneous Conjuration effect). The Cleric may have the trickery domain, but as stated before, those tools have an extremely limited supply. So basically it boils down to this: The Warlock is constantly trying to hug the range at 250 feet The Warlock will be invisible whenever possible The Cleric's touch AC sucks The Cleric's abilities to detect the Warlock are limited to 60 feet, a range the Warlock will never willingly enter The Cleric is lacking the tools to be able to effectively fight the Warlock at the range he prefers While the Warlock is inviisible and out of "short" range, the cleric cannot target him with anything with requires a target (rather than affecting an area) because he is denied line of sight Nearly all of the devastating effects the Cleric can bring to bear are close range Any magic items the cleric may use to level the playing field will likely have a low caster level because of the 15000 gold piece restriction, and thus their effects will be eaten alive by Voracious Dispelling Basically, what I'm asking is, how exactly is the cleric going to win? He may be able to level the lock with one good spell, but why is everyone assuming he'll EVER be able to get it off?
Empiro 07-15-07, 09:31 PM	Agree with above. So many people are saying, "cleric wins, cuz clerics are l33t", yet no one so far has came up with a plausible scenario with how the cleric actually wins, especially given all the things we know a warlock would definitely do, like stay far away, stay invisble, be flying. With 10 minutes' time, I can see a cleric casting Planar Ally to get help, but even then, warlock likely retreats until the Planar Ally runs out (though nonetheless a victory for the cleric, forcing the warlock to run).
lord_xarallon 07-15-07, 09:34 PM	Hellfire Warlock is not allowed. But none seems to want to settle this probably, with a battle. I'm willing to take the burden of being one of the combatants, though I'm of to bed now and tomorrow I have no time for the battle. But if I'm not wrong arranging this will take longer then one day.
Jere_RB 07-15-07, 09:39 PM	You know what I love? The fact that the cleric and warlock were not actually meant to go against each other. They're made to fight...*gasp*...MONSTERS!!! They're adventuring classes. A true test would be to see how they stack up while adventuring. AKA...killing monsters. Which one performs better then?
Anodai 07-15-07, 09:47 PM	Hellfire Warlock is not allowed. But none seems to want to settle this probably, with a battle. I'm willing to take the burden of being one of the combatants, though I'm of to bed now and tomorrow I have no time for the battle. But if I'm not wrong arranging this will take longer then one day. I'll do it, I'll take cleric. PM me. Also I'm guessing the OP meant an arena battle of sorts...
lord_xarallon 07-15-07, 10:03 PM	I'll do it, I'll take cleric. PM me. Also I'm guessing the OP meant an arena battle of sorts... Glad some is up for the challenge. The restrictions: LvL.15 human ,only from palyers handbook 3.5,complete arcane ,and complete divine. Magic eqiupment up to 15,000gp. No nightstick build. Now we need to build our character, find a place to battle, find a DM, and agree on additional rules (I know which but there will doubtlessly be something). As a sidenote: Do you consider yourself a powergamer? On a scale from 1 to 10, were 10 is "I know all tricks" and 5 "I know what I'm doing / normal" I'm 7.
Anodai 07-15-07, 10:07 PM	Conducting rest of conversation (besides battle report) on PMs
lord_xarallon 07-15-07, 10:16 PM	Ok.
Mordar 07-15-07, 10:31 PM	you guys should post the going of the battle in some thread, I would definitely like to read how everything went
lord_xarallon 07-15-07, 10:42 PM	To what extent we like. I mean so we don't give away our tactics: Like "Hey, guys, I'm right behind him and if he don't cast spell x then I win." We need a DM, anyone up for that.
darkdragoon 07-16-07, 12:51 AM	If a cleric is wasting his actions healing or buffing themself how is he dealing damage to the warlock? Healing: You use an action to keep going. That means you are around for more rounds in which you have more actions. Buff: You use an action to make your subsequent actions better. 10+10 does the same as 5+5+5+5.
Treantmonklvl20 07-16-07, 04:20 PM	To what extent we like. I mean so we don't give away our tactics: Like "Hey, guys, I'm right behind him and if he don't cast spell x then I win." We need a DM, anyone up for that. Hmmm...possibly You thinking of doing this via email, or live chat? Email would be more convenient for me since I'm a father and scheduling uninterrupted computer time can be difficult.
Anodai 07-16-07, 08:45 PM	We are probably using screen monkey lite. It is a free program and is pretty intuitive. There is also a paid version that is minimally more powerful, so we won't waste money on it. PM both me and Lord Xarallon if interested.
Anodai 07-18-07, 12:28 PM	Oh, just so after the 1 on 1 we don't get "oh you should have done so and so" or "why the :censored: did you do that?" feel free to give advice now.
RobbyPants 07-18-07, 01:02 PM	Then again, cleric gets save or die spells around that level and warlock has pretty poor Fort. If the cleric can get close enough to cast Destruction, the warlock is in trouble. It's not just a save-or-die, but rather, a save-and-take-10d6-damage-or-die. Given the warlocks 15d6+(15*Con Mod) HP, I think he'd probably go down in two, even if he made both saves.
Treantmonklvl20 07-18-07, 04:49 PM	It may end up coming down to initiative? Often with high level combats between casters it does. Keep in mind that both combatants are looking at this thread. If I was Lord Xarallon, right now I'm thinking "How do I defeat the Cleric casting destruction?" Don't know if there's a way, but Lord Xarallon might... Frankly, athough I'm supposed to be neutral, I'm expecting a Cleric win, since the Cleric will be full on spells (One of the Warlocks best features is staying power), however, it might be interesting. The Warlock does get some neat tricks.
DaidojiTaidoru 07-18-07, 05:42 PM	Hm... Assuming little/no prep time: LG Cleric packs Dictum and Holy Word. With Kharma Bead and Orange Ioun stone the Cleric has +5 CL on both spells. That paralyzes the Warlock no save. CDG, GG. Need to burn the rest of the items to make sure you can get within 40 feet. Anything to quickly determine the warlocks alignment would help as well, otherwise he might get a round off and that's just unacceptable. (Side note: Pack extra holy symbols for the shatter BS, just in case.) If given prep time abuse planar ally, undead creation, symbols and other 'until triggered' or permanent effects to make looking at your uncovered shield deadly and being in the same country as you like a horror movie. Edit: Hm... re read the magic item limits. Still Blinded or Slowed is a nice thing to drop on someone. I'd grab one of the two alignment domains and Travel if it's just drop in and fight. If there's prep time, well the clerics conquered the world anyway so...
Treantmonklvl20 07-18-07, 06:18 PM	We have not determined if there will be prep time. I'm thinking at least 1 round of prep time is required to prevent this coming down to the first initiative roll. If both participants agree to more or less prep time that is fine, but one round seems right to me. This allows at least one defensive spell to be activated.
Tealgorthian 07-18-07, 08:15 PM	Hm... Assuming little/no prep time: LG Cleric packs Dictum and Holy Word. With Kharma Bead and Orange Ioun stone the Cleric has +5 CL on both spells. That paralyzes the Warlock no save. CDG, GG. Need to burn the rest of the items to make sure you can get within 40 feet. Anything to quickly determine the warlocks alignment would help as well, otherwise he might get a round off and that's just unacceptable. (Side note: Pack extra holy symbols for the shatter BS, just in case.) Er.. just keep the holy symbol under your shirt. Unless the Warlock is undead, you shouldnt need to brandish it for anything, should you? If so, just give it a minor enchantment. +1 Concentration checks even.
Anodai 07-18-07, 09:57 PM	What we are probably doing at this point is 2 level 15 humans with 15k starting gear/gold in the spell duel format from CArc. lethatl, obviously, with 2 round prep per CArc. We also are using Max HP. We still need to decide in a location/ borders. A big dome with x dimensions seems likely.
lord_xarallon 07-19-07, 02:41 AM	If I was Lord Xarallon, right now I'm thinking "How do I defeat the Cleric casting destruction?" Don't know if there's a way, but Lord Xarallon might... Frankly, athough I'm supposed to be neutral, I'm expecting a Cleric win, since the Cleric will be full on spells (One of the Warlocks best features is staying power), however, it might be interesting. The Warlock does get some neat tricks. Beat Destruction, bah, it's easy. If I tell how then he might counter my countering. It is hard to counter counter countering. But a hint I dare to give: look at the spell. There is a lot of ways. The neat tricks going to secure my victory.
something_profound 07-19-07, 06:58 AM	the invocations i think people overlook (as they only effect one opponent, aka. not helpful in group combat) are the ones that grapple the enemy, so say you cast stony/earthen grasp or chilling tentacles invocations then follow up with a hungry darkness combined with devils sight to continue blasting away... but then i'm a warlock sympathiser and i'm sure there's an equally more clever way for the cleric to defeat them.
something_profound 07-19-07, 07:01 AM	oh and not forgetting to prepare actions to blast the cleric when he's going to do a spell... but it's still down to initiative
GrayGuard 07-19-07, 07:15 AM	Well if its just the Cleric VS WarLock then flip a coin, 50% Cleric, 50% Warlock, If your talking about usefulness in a group? Well eveyone loves there healer and they love to be healed, And considering Clerics are lets face it, The best in that field, Then The Cleric wins in that field, A Druid gains healing spells slower then a Cleric, Same with Paladin and Ranger, Paladin can keep 1 person staying in the fight thats not as many as the cleric can do, Ranger can possibly take care of himself but perhaps not on eveything, Druid Great, They have the whole simi not as great not realy cool Lets res you and possibly become a monster NPC insteed with LA, Thats not cool now. Warlock on the other hand is basicly another form of Arcane Blaster, Wait I Beleve Wizards and Sorc can beat him on that field, Druids and Clerics can use there buffs to become all high and mighty but that sometimes takes time and half the time its better placed on a differnt character (Better Results), Hell sure you can have high mighty cleric, But you waste thoughs spells that can be used for healing, not only that but a Fully buffed Barbian or something eles, Can run around rampageing the battle field, So Warlock can be replaced by a class, (Wizard) easyoly, And the Cleric ... well you kinda cant replace him as easyoly as the WarLock so 55-60% Cleric 40-45% Warlock? if its just a warlock vs cleric then go ahead flip that coin... if your talking about party differnace and strength and how useful they can be in a party? Then go go Cleric
GrayGuard 07-19-07, 07:21 AM	oh and not forgetting to prepare actions to blast the cleric when he's going to do a spell... but it's still down to initiative Of Course the Cleric can prepare an action to do something to the warlock when he's going to do something, But like you said the warlock can do the same thing so ... Go Go Dice roll Lets get a higher initive then you!
lord_xarallon 07-19-07, 08:10 AM	We could also take the otherway around it after this combat, then I'll be cleric and you'll be warlock.
robitusinz 07-19-07, 11:07 AM	I think everyone who is arguing for the Warlock is assuming that he's going to be flying and invisible, and is assuming unrestricted movement. That said... I'm trying to figure out the way the cleric is supposedly going to locate the lock to target him with anything. The cleric may be flying (although, if this is due to an item, it'll be infinitely easier for the lock to dispel), and he may have see invisibility, invisibility purge, and true seeing available, but don't all of these spells have a maximum range of 60 feet? If the lock is invisible and Eldritch Spears the cleric from maximum range, the cleric is going to be hard pressed to do anything to react. As someone has already stated, Eldritch Spear and Invisibility turns this fight into a sniping duel, and the Cleric's short range spells, which are by far his most devastating, never come into play. The Warlock will never close to melee with the cleric (in fact, he'll probably never come withing 60 feet), and the Cleric lacks the proper tools to be able to play the Warlock's game. Even the AMF isn't a sure defense, as the Warlock can use his Acidic EB (forget the name) which makes it not subject to spell resistance or the AMF (it becomes an instantaneous Conjuration effect). The Cleric may have the trickery domain, but as stated before, those tools have an extremely limited supply. So basically it boils down to this: The Warlock is constantly trying to hug the range at 250 feet The Warlock will be invisible whenever possible The Cleric's touch AC sucks The Cleric's abilities to detect the Warlock are limited to 60 feet, a range the Warlock will never willingly enter The Cleric is lacking the tools to be able to effectively fight the Warlock at the range he prefers While the Warlock is inviisible and out of "short" range, the cleric cannot target him with anything with requires a target (rather than affecting an area) because he is denied line of sight Nearly all of the devastating effects the Cleric can bring to bear are close range Any magic items the cleric may use to level the playing field will likely have a low caster level because of the 15000 gold piece restriction, and thus their effects will be eaten alive by Voracious Dispelling Basically, what I'm asking is, how exactly is the cleric going to win? He may be able to level the lock with one good spell, but why is everyone assuming he'll EVER be able to get it off? Two words: Tower Shield Shield, Tower This massive wooden shield is nearly as tall as you are. In most situations, it provides the indicated shield bonus to your AC. However, you can instead use it as total cover, though you must give up your attacks to do so. The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding. You cannot bash with a tower shield, nor can you use your shield hand for anything else. When employing a tower shield in combat, you take a -2 penalty on attack rolls because of the shield’s encumbrance. Total Cover If you don’t have line of effect to your target he is considered to have total cover from you. You can’t make an attack against a target that has total cover. Eldritch Blast is a Ranged Touch Attack. A tower shield would protect you from such. 2 more words: Entropic Shield. Here's another batch of words: Spell Resistance (Cleric: "Ok Warlock, now all you can use is Vitriolic Blast.") + Protection from Energy (acid) (Cleric: "Nevermind.") How about: Spiritual Weapon Evocation [Force] Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Plenty of stuff a Cleric can use to counter a Warlock. Heck, even if you don't like the Tower Shield, he can just throw up a Wall of Stone and create the boundaries of the fight. Even an unbuffed Cleric could easily ward off an annoying Warlock while he buffs himself up. Heck, considering that all of these spells listed are spells normally found on my "adventuring" Cleric's spell list, none of these would be effects that a Cleric would need to have reasonable prior knowledge to have memorized. Not only that, but Purge Invisibility is pretty much standard too, so Invis won't do jack for the Warlock. The Cleric WILL force the Warlock to fight him on HIS terms. He's got spells to do that. The Warlock is just one-dimensional. Even with a plethora of Wands, Scrolls and other gadgets, the Warlock is still going to have to bring it to the Cleric. You take a Cleric with decent strength, and a composite longbow, along with a bracer of archery, and he can plink a Warlock for 1d8+str while the Warlock tries to blast away with his EB. After a few rounds of this, the Cleric pops a "Heal" and is back to full HP. What does the Warlock do? Another funny thing I've seen is that people here seem to think that a Cleric can't get a decent AC vs. touch attacks. A 15th level Cleric has Shield of Faith granting him +5 deflection AC bonus. Combat Expertise (my Cleric has this and Improved Trip, so I won't consider it "far-fetched") grants a Dodge bonus to AC. Total Defense maneuver does the same. A Dusty Rose Ioun Stone gives +1 insight bonus to AC. Heck, for 9,000gp, you can get Bracers of Armor +3 which help vs. touch attacks. A ring of Force Shield is only 8,500gp. Plus, a Dex+2 item is only 4,000gp. With access to the Magic Domain, said Cleric can pick up a scroll of Mage Armor and a scroll of Shield to increase his AC vs. touch even further. Let's add this up: 10 + 1 (Dex) + 3 (Bracers of Armor) + 2 (Ring of Force Shield) + 1 (Dusty Rose Ioun Stone) + 5 (Shield of Faith) = AC 22 vs. Touch Attacks, PLUS Combat Expertise bonuses, and we're only assuming a Dex of 12 here. Again, my "adventuring" Cleric has Dex 16 (after items) to make full use of his Mithral Full Plate. That's some hefty touch AC, with even more options to keep increasing that. The Warlock is pretty much limited to his BAB (11 at lvl 15) + Dex (Assuming Dex 18 to start + 2 racial from some LA +0 race + 3 from level bonuses + 2 from Dex+2 item = Dex 25, or a +7 bonus) + Weapon Focus (Ranged Touch) (giving a big benefit of the doubt here) + ....hmmmm...I can't come up with anything else. So far, that's a +19 to hit with his touch attack. I'd add the Warlock's Scepter, but it's a 28,000gp item and doesn't come under the 15K limit. BTW, with access to 8th level spells, the Cleric can just put up Shield of Law or Holy Aura. A Warlock has to be either Chaotic or Evil, if I recall correctly. Summon Monster 8 used to summon a greater Air Elemental will really ruin a Warlock's day. Basically, the Warlock can't kill the Cleric in one round. If he can't do that, then the Cleric can respond to whatever he's dishing out. Once that starts happening, all of the Warlock's "advantages" go out the window. Edit: And if you give the Warlock 3 rounds to show up to the battle with Flying, Invis and his Flame-protection invocation, then you're giving the Cleric 3 rounds to do what he likes as well. Spell Resistance + Prot. from Energy (acid) + Summon Monster 8 would result in an almost impossible battle for the Warlock.
Anodai 07-19-07, 12:43 PM	I know how i would counter destruction but your way may be different. Also, we should do 2 out of 3 or something to the effect. To something_profound freedom of movement is awsome. And to robitusinz the lock has other damage methods.
danielinthewolvesden 07-19-07, 02:01 PM	To be fair you have to allow the Warlock to have up his "all the time" invocations. I mean, that's what a warlock does.
Treantmonklvl20 07-19-07, 02:51 PM	The battle will be in a large open field. Ground is grass covered earth, otherwise all is clear and flat. The duel area will be a rectagonal cube. 50 feet high (10 squares), 165' wide, 220 feet long. This way I can keep a secondary physical record of positions on my roll out map at home (I'm used to tabletop, not online). Combatants will begin on opposite ends, in the middle of the 165' edges of the map. Voluntarily leaving the map results in a forfeit. Forcing your opponent to leave the map (by having conjured creatures bull rush him off the edge for example) will also result in a forfeit. In other words, just stay in the borders. Since these are not PC's in an actual campaign, it will be a lethal combat. Rather than starting level 15, we will do starting XP 105,000 in case either combatant wishes to begin with crafted items. (They will require the proper feats of course) 2 rounds of "prep time" will occur before the battle begins, besides that, we will consider 1 hour previous to be prohibited from spellcasting (or invocation casting), any spells or invocations with longer durations may be cast previously. After every 3 rounds there will be a one round rest period, as prescribed in the mage duel suggested rules. Any conjured creatures are considered inactive during this time. Sound fair?
Anodai 07-19-07, 02:53 PM	To be fair you have to allow the Warlock to have up his "all the time" invocations. I mean, that's what a warlock does. To be fair? my cleric does renewall pact, death pact zealot pack, stalwart pact, and a miracle on contigency. I mean, thats what a cleric does. Also, if you look at the rules for spell duels both of the above are forbidden. to Treantmonklvl20, I like all of it except for the part about the 1 round rest period. I fail to see what this adds to the match. also in the spell duel rules it says combatants must not have any spells active.
DaidojiTaidoru 07-19-07, 02:59 PM	The battle will be in a large open field. Ground is grass covered earth, otherwise all is clear and flat. The duel area will be a rectagonal cube. 50 feet high (10 squares), 165' wide, 220 feet long. This way I can keep a secondary physical record of positions on my roll out map at home (I'm used to tabletop, not online). Combatants will begin on opposite ends, in the middle of the 165' edges of the map. Voluntarily leaving the map results in a forfeit. Forcing your opponent to leave the map (by having conjured creatures bull rush him off the edge for example) will also result in a forfeit. In other words, just stay in the borders. Since these are not PC's in an actual campaign, it will be a lethal combat. Rather than starting level 15, we will do starting XP 105,000 in case either combatant wishes to begin with crafted items. (They will require the proper feats of course) 2 rounds of "prep time" will occur before the battle begins, besides that, we will consider 1 hour previous to be prohibited from spellcasting (or invocation casting), any spells or invocations with longer durations may be cast previously. After every 3 rounds there will be a one round rest period, as prescribed in the mage duel suggested rules. Any conjured creatures are considered inactive during this time. Sound fair? Interesting. I'd give an edge to the Cleric here but I'm not sure how well the Warlock can pound out the Rocket tag. Given equal Char Op this may be an initiative fight. One suggestion I would give is that characters start 10 to 20 feet inside the dueling ring so a single turn bullrush "ringout" win isn't as easy. I don't know if the participants can do that but it never hurts to deal with issues early.
Treantmonklvl20 07-19-07, 03:04 PM	To be fair? my cleric does renewall pact, death pact zealot pack, stalwart pact, and a miracle on contigency. I mean, thats what a cleric does. Also, if you look at the rules for spell duels both of the above are forbidden. The way I read the spell duel rules, the combatants meet one hour before the duel begins, and cannot cast spells during that time. I agree it is subjective, but that's the way I read it. So anything your Cleric can cast before then that will help him in the Duel, go for it! Otherwise, if you and lord_xarallon can reach a consensus on another way, that change can be made.
lord_xarallon 07-19-07, 03:05 PM	The duel area will be a rectagonal cube. 50 feet high (10 squares), 165' wide, 220 feet long. This way I can keep a secondary physical record of positions on my roll out map at home (I'm used to tabletop, not online). ... 2 rounds of "prep time" will occur before the battle begins, besides that, we will consider 1 hour previous to be prohibited from spellcasting (or invocation casting), any spells or invocations with longer durations may be cast previously. After every 3 rounds there will be a one round rest period, as prescribed in the mage duel suggested rules. Any conjured creatures are considered inactive during this time. Sound fair? No. The size HURTS the warlock. Almost physically. This way you nullify the warlocks greatest advantage over the cleric, tactical movement. And still not. Low prep time hurts the cleric. BUT not as badly as the warlock because the cleric will be able to extend his prep (albeit under attack), but the warlock will not be able to extend the arena. (okay, I admit it is not that bad, but still, the warlock suffers most)
Treantmonklvl20 07-19-07, 03:06 PM	Interesting. I'd give an edge to the Cleric here but I'm not sure how well the Warlock can pound out the Rocket tag. Given equal Char Op this may be an initiative fight. One suggestion I would give is that characters start 10 to 20 feet inside the dueling ring so a single turn bullrush "ringout" win isn't as easy. I don't know if the participants can do that but it never hurts to deal with issues early. My wording might have been unclear. Bullrushing out your opponent will cause you to lose, not win. There will be no "ringout"...someone's going to die!
lord_xarallon 07-19-07, 03:11 PM	The way I read the spell duel rules, the combatants meet one hour before the duel begins, and cannot cast spells during that time. I agree it is subjective, but that's the way I read it. So anything your Cleric can cast before then that will help him in the Duel, go for it! Otherwise, if you and lord_xarallon can reach a consensus on another way, that change can be made. I read the rules likewise. Going over the edge, what happen then. Anodai, that miracle, how?
Treantmonklvl20 07-19-07, 03:15 PM	No. The size HURTS the warlock. Almost physically. This way you nullify the warlocks greatest advantage over the cleric, tactical movement. And still not. Low prep time hurts the cleric. BUT not as badly as the warlock because the cleric will be able to extend his prep (albeit under attack), but the warlock will not be able to extend the arena. (okay, I admit it is not that bad, but still, the warlock suffers most) I do agree that the Warlock is at a disadvantage here, I never thought this was a fair fight, lots of things hurt the Warlock... 1. The level of 15 works against the Warlock. He is one level away from Dark Invocations, but has had Greater Invocations for several levels. The Cleric just has recieved 8th level spells. Furthermore, the higher the level, the greater the advantage to full spellcasters. The Warlock is not a spellcaster. 2. This being the first fight of the day hurts the Warlock. Have this duel after a full day of adventuring it would well be a different story. I will point out the obvious though. The arena is large, but not THAT large. An eldritch spear will shoot straight to the other side of the arena. Who says the Warlock will even use invocations once the battle begins? 15,000gp starting equipment with UMD creates endless options. I don't know the strategies either player is planning, but I've got to think the Cleric has the advantage, but I'm not discounting the Warlock. I admit when a previous poster suggested the Cleric should just cast "Destruction" at the Warlock, my immediate thought (Being a natural devils advocate), was "Hmmm...I wonder if lord_xarallon will be picking up a scroll of Destruction with his starting equipment??? There is no spell the Cleric can cast, that the Warlock can't cast too....but unlike the Cleric, the Warlock will have access to arcane spells too.
lord_xarallon 07-19-07, 03:26 PM	Let us take the conversation to PM.
Empiro 07-19-07, 04:02 PM	Two words: Eldritch Blast is a Ranged Touch Attack. A tower shield would protect you from such. 2 more words: Entropic Shield. Here's another batch of words: Spell Resistance (Cleric: "Ok Warlock, now all you can use is Vitriolic Blast.") + Protection from Energy (acid) (Cleric: "Nevermind.") How about: Spiritual Weapon Evocation [Force] Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Plenty of stuff a Cleric can use to counter a Warlock. Heck, even if you don't like the Tower Shield, he can just throw up a Wall of Stone and create the boundaries of the fight. Even an unbuffed Cleric could easily ward off an annoying Warlock while he buffs himself up. Heck, considering that all of these spells listed are spells normally found on my "adventuring" Cleric's spell list, none of these would be effects that a Cleric would need to have reasonable prior knowledge to have memorized. Not only that, but Purge Invisibility is pretty much standard too, so Invis won't do jack for the Warlock. The Cleric WILL force the Warlock to fight him on HIS terms. He's got spells to do that. The Warlock is just one-dimensional. Even with a plethora of Wands, Scrolls and other gadgets, the Warlock is still going to have to bring it to the Cleric. You take a Cleric with decent strength, and a composite longbow, along with a bracer of archery, and he can plink a Warlock for 1d8+str while the Warlock tries to blast away with his EB. After a few rounds of this, the Cleric pops a "Heal" and is back to full HP. What does the Warlock do? Another funny thing I've seen is that people here seem to think that a Cleric can't get a decent AC vs. touch attacks. A 15th level Cleric has Shield of Faith granting him +5 deflection AC bonus. Combat Expertise (my Cleric has this and Improved Trip, so I won't consider it "far-fetched") grants a Dodge bonus to AC. Total Defense maneuver does the same. A Dusty Rose Ioun Stone gives +1 insight bonus to AC. Heck, for 9,000gp, you can get Bracers of Armor +3 which help vs. touch attacks. A ring of Force Shield is only 8,500gp. Plus, a Dex+2 item is only 4,000gp. With access to the Magic Domain, said Cleric can pick up a scroll of Mage Armor and a scroll of Shield to increase his AC vs. touch even further. Let's add this up: 10 + 1 (Dex) + 3 (Bracers of Armor) + 2 (Ring of Force Shield) + 1 (Dusty Rose Ioun Stone) + 5 (Shield of Faith) = AC 22 vs. Touch Attacks, PLUS Combat Expertise bonuses, and we're only assuming a Dex of 12 here. Again, my "adventuring" Cleric has Dex 16 (after items) to make full use of his Mithral Full Plate. That's some hefty touch AC, with even more options to keep increasing that. The Warlock is pretty much limited to his BAB (11 at lvl 15) + Dex (Assuming Dex 18 to start + 2 racial from some LA +0 race + 3 from level bonuses + 2 from Dex+2 item = Dex 25, or a +7 bonus) + Weapon Focus (Ranged Touch) (giving a big benefit of the doubt here) + ....hmmmm...I can't come up with anything else. So far, that's a +19 to hit with his touch attack. I'd add the Warlock's Scepter, but it's a 28,000gp item and doesn't come under the 15K limit. BTW, with access to 8th level spells, the Cleric can just put up Shield of Law or Holy Aura. A Warlock has to be either Chaotic or Evil, if I recall correctly. Summon Monster 8 used to summon a greater Air Elemental will really ruin a Warlock's day. Basically, the Warlock can't kill the Cleric in one round. If he can't do that, then the Cleric can respond to whatever he's dishing out. Once that starts happening, all of the Warlock's "advantages" go out the window. Edit: And if you give the Warlock 3 rounds to show up to the battle with Flying, Invis and his Flame-protection invocation, then you're giving the Cleric 3 rounds to do what he likes as well. Spell Resistance + Prot. from Energy (acid) + Summon Monster 8 would result in an almost impossible battle for the Warlock. There are so many things wrong in your post. Let me just point out one of the more glaring ones: your AC calculation. To start, Mage Armor/Bracers of Armor don't stack with each other, and furthermore, don't provide protect protection against Touch Attacks. They work against Incorporeal Attacks. Same deal with Ring of Force Shield/Shield spell. Also, if you use Combat Expertise, you have to spend at least a standard action for an attack action, meaning that you won't be casting any non-quickened spells. Also, I believe that to claim total cover on a tower shield, you must use a standard action to do so, again preventing you from casting spells. Same deal with total defense -- it takes up your standard action.
Empiro 07-19-07, 04:08 PM	Also, note that Max HP strongly favors the cleric, because the cleric will rely more on incapacitating spells/save or dies, while the warlock's best bet is to quicken or maximize his eldritch blast to deal as much damage as quickly as possible.
lord_xarallon 07-19-07, 04:19 PM	Also, note that Max HP strongly favors the cleric, because the cleric will rely more on incapacitating spells/save or dies, while the warlock's best bet is to quicken or maximize his eldritch blast to deal as much damage as quickly as possible. It was I (the warlock) that suggested that. And yes, I'm fully aware of this.
Anodai 07-19-07, 04:30 PM	Anodai, that miracle, how? the point of the post was an example, i dont actually get miracle
lord_xarallon 07-19-07, 04:58 PM	the point of the post was an example, i dont actually get miracle It would be pretty amazing.
danielinthewolvesden 07-22-07, 01:11 AM	1. The level of 15 works against the Warlock. He is one level away from Dark Invocations, but has had Greater Invocations for several levels. The Cleric just has recieved 8th level spells. . Yes, this part is unfair.I am guessing the Op picked that particular level as it is where the Cleric is strongest compared to the Warlock. Let us say either 16th or 14th.
lord_xarallon 07-23-07, 06:38 AM	Yes, this part is unfair.I am guessing the Op picked that particular level as it is where the Cleric is strongest compared to the Warlock. Let us say either 16th or 14th. I can live with level 15, but I have trouble living with this arena.
SmiloDan 07-23-07, 10:23 AM	The warlock should just ready a maximized eldritch blast every time the cleric casts. I doubt the cleric can make a DC 46 + spell level Concentration check consistently. Throw in a quickened eldritch blast (maybe empowered too), and it's going to be a rough day for the cleric.
gotbrain 07-23-07, 12:17 PM	I can live with level 15, but I have trouble living with this arena. :-) This appears to be the only way a warlock will win. If he has freedom to move. He's an arcane skirmisher; I really dont like skirmisher builds because they're so limited. How about having randomly placed traps on the field of battle; like in flash gordon when they're fighting on the tilting, rotating disc and spikes keep popping up. Or like in Gladiator where tigers jump out of a pit at you.
Llathos 07-23-07, 12:54 PM	Keep the battle scenario going, I'm intrigued.
Anodai 07-23-07, 02:22 PM	Treantmonklvl20 actually resigned as DM a little while ago. At this point if we can't find a new DM I'm leaving by Friday. Also Lord_Xarallon needs to accept whatever therms the new DM lays out. This isn't a "which is better" thread, its a "which wins in x conditions" thread.
lord_xarallon 07-23-07, 03:27 PM	Treantmonklvl20 actually resigned as DM a little while ago. At this point if we can't find a new DM I'm leaving by Friday. Also Lord_Xarallon needs to accept whatever therms the new DM lays out. This isn't a "which is better" thread, its a "which wins in x conditions" thread. True. In this arena will the cleric win. Solely based on the arena and a single spell. When you realize which spell is the "win"-spell, you will realize why I don't like the arena. But is anyone up for it? Must be before Friday. If none want then I suppose will shall post our build and our strategy.
lord_xarallon 07-24-07, 07:38 PM	Does none wanna DM this?
Chie 07-24-07, 11:26 PM	I think everyone who is arguing for the Warlock is assuming that he's going to be flying and invisible, and is assuming unrestricted movement. That said... I'm trying to figure out the way the cleric is supposedly going to locate the lock to target him with anything. The cleric may be flying (although, if this is due to an item, it'll be infinitely easier for the lock to dispel), and he may have see invisibility, invisibility purge, and true seeing available, but don't all of these spells have a maximum range of 60 feet? If the lock is invisible and Eldritch Spears the cleric from maximum range, the cleric is going to be hard pressed to do anything to react. As someone has already stated, Eldritch Spear and Invisibility turns this fight into a sniping duel, and the Cleric's short range spells, which are by far his most devastating, never come into play. The Warlock will never close to melee with the cleric (in fact, he'll probably never come withing 60 feet), and the Cleric lacks the proper tools to be able to play the Warlock's game. Even the AMF isn't a sure defense, as the Warlock can use his Acidic EB (forget the name) which makes it not subject to spell resistance or the AMF (it becomes an instantaneous Conjuration effect). The Cleric may have the trickery domain, but as stated before, those tools have an extremely limited supply. So basically it boils down to this: The Warlock is constantly trying to hug the range at 250 feet The Warlock will be invisible whenever possible The Cleric's touch AC sucks The Cleric's abilities to detect the Warlock are limited to 60 feet, a range the Warlock will never willingly enter The Cleric is lacking the tools to be able to effectively fight the Warlock at the range he prefers While the Warlock is inviisible and out of "short" range, the cleric cannot target him with anything with requires a target (rather than affecting an area) because he is denied line of sight Nearly all of the devastating effects the Cleric can bring to bear are close range Any magic items the cleric may use to level the playing field will likely have a low caster level because of the 15000 gold piece restriction, and thus their effects will be eaten alive by Voracious Dispelling Basically, what I'm asking is, how exactly is the cleric going to win? He may be able to level the lock with one good spell, but why is everyone assuming he'll EVER be able to get it off? It's very,very simple how the cleric is going to win.First off,none of those spells have a range of sixty feet,I'm not even sure where you got that from.See invisibility has a range of your normal eyesight.So you can see the warlock if he's within normal human vision,which I'm guessing he is since he's shooting at the cleric.True seeing has a range of 120 feet.Invis Purge has a range of 5 feet per caster level which makes it fairly meaningless for this discussion but who needs invisibility purge anyways. Now here's how the fight should go.First round the cleric summons a Greater Air Elemental using summon monster (178 hp,and 2 slam attacks at 2d8+5 on a full attack and a fly speed of 100).Second round he casts true seeing on the elemental.Third round he sits back twiddling his thumbs while the elemental hunts down the warlock and slaughters him without the cleric having to so much as raise another finger.While true-seeing may only have a 120 foot range and the warlock is maybe 250 away,the elemental can cover 400 feet in a round so he'll probably find the warlock on his first search of the area,assuming the warlock hasn't taken a shot at the cleric and announced which direction he was in.If the cleric is fortunate enough to have initiative as well then the warlock is pretty much dead from the get-go since summoned monsters act on the turn they're summoned. And holding an action to disrupt a caster is not a viable tactic in a one-on-one battle.If you disrupt a clerics spell once he'll know what you're doing and stop casting,then you either stand there and both do nothing or you go on the offensive and attack,thus giving him leave to cast again.And he needs a lot fewer actions to kill the warlock than the cleric needs,and can afford to take a lot more in hit point damage than you.
Vaelan 07-25-07, 12:39 AM	A Warlock has plenty of options to foil summoning. Try harder. I don't see any ability with a duration presenting a problem to a Warlock. Not only can they be dispelled if necessary, but the Warlock has multiple ways to wait them out. To make this even remotely possible for the Cleric, you're going to have to throw in some arbitrary limitations on the Warlock's abilities, which answers the question for us without needing to run a fight.
Chie 07-25-07, 02:46 AM	A Warlock has plenty of options to foil summoning. Try harder. I don't see any ability with a duration presenting a problem to a Warlock. Not only can they be dispelled if necessary, but the Warlock has multiple ways to wait them out. To make this even remotely possible for the Cleric, you're going to have to throw in some arbitrary limitations on the Warlock's abilities, which answers the question for us without needing to run a fight. The warlock can't really do anything to stop it.If the warlock has initiative and he say,makes himself invisible,then the cleric summons the elemental on his action.On his next action the warlock could try to dispel the elemental,but trying to do that would cancel his invisibility,thus opening himself up to the clerics attacks on the clerics upcoming turn,and remember,he'll only have a 50 percent chance of even dispelling the elemental,so he's taking a big risk in trying.On the clerics turn if he's already revealed himself trying to dispel the elemental he can hit the warlock with an Earthquake,a fire storm,summon another creature or whatever else strikes his fancy since the warlock hasn't had a chance to make any real distance (and earthquake has a 400 foot range anyways) yet.If he doesn't try to dispel the elemental then he has to try to fly away out of range or otherwise buff himself because he can't attack without losing said invisibility.In that case the cleric casts true seeing on his action and the elemental then goes right for the warlock.Since invocations provoke AoO and the elemental has a +23 to hit,assuming that it doesn't simply go whirlwind and really mess up the casting.Pretty much the warlock is in a lot of trouble. And durations in spells are largely meaningless since most fights don't last more than four rounds anyway. Seriously,I suggest you try harder than simply saying that a warlock can foil summonings.Can a warlock unsummon the elemental,sure if he's lucky,but remember that the only strategy anyone has yet to come up with involves getting as far away from the cleric as fast as possible.You can't afford to waste even a single action because once the elemental closes on you,it's more or less over.And that's assuming that the cleric doesn't feel like helping out. But if you think you can wait it out or beat it,feel free to make some examples instead of generic statements.
Vaelan 07-25-07, 03:47 AM	I was avoiding specifics to avoid spoiling the fight, but the fight is meaningless anyway. Foiling your strategy is trivial and the rest of your post is nothing more than asinine assumptions in the vein of "the Warlock is an idiot". I have absolutely no interest in discussing this with you, but I will humor you and fulfill your request anyway. Protection from Evil is a first-level spell that completely invalidates your strategy. Warlocks, in case you didn't know, get class features related to Use Magic Device which make the creation and use of a first-level scroll guaranteed successes. Not only is your strategy foiled by a first-level spell, a good indication of just how pathetic it is, but it is foiled by a first-level defensive staple, which is a good indication of your ability in this particular area. And since you seem to be such a fan of generic statements, here is another one: I thought of two other ways for a Warlock to destroy the elemental with a minimal chance of even being hit, let alone significantly hurt, before I even finished reading your post.
lord_xarallon 07-25-07, 06:01 AM	But none of you wants to DM this and find out?
Chie 07-25-07, 08:07 AM	I was avoiding specifics to avoid spoiling the fight, but the fight is meaningless anyway. Foiling your strategy is trivial and the rest of your post is nothing more than asinine assumptions in the vein of "the Warlock is an idiot". I have absolutely no interest in discussing this with you, but I will humor you and fulfill your request anyway. Protection from Evil is a first-level spell that completely invalidates your strategy. Warlocks, in case you didn't know, get class features related to Use Magic Device which make the creation and use of a first-level scroll guaranteed successes. Not only is your strategy foiled by a first-level spell, a good indication of just how pathetic it is, but it is foiled by a first-level defensive staple, which is a good indication of your ability in this particular area. And since you seem to be such a fan of generic statements, here is another one: I thought of two other ways for a Warlock to destroy the elemental with a minimal chance of even being hit, let alone significantly hurt, before I even finished reading your post. You know,my statements were quite reasonable and politely put.Now if you wish to be obnoxious about this then feel free,but please do not attempt to talk like about subjects you aobviously have no business speaking about. First off allow me to point out quite simply that protection from evil,protects againts EVIL (an amazing coincidence,is it not?).Elementals are neutral.Protection from evil will do nothing more than waste your first action,although the cleric may be so busy laughing at you that you can somehow gain the upperhand.And there is not,by the way,a protection from neutrality spell. Now as for the elemental thing,I will explain it in much simpler terms.A summoned creature can appear wherever you designate it and acts on your turn.The cleric summons the elemental and puts it next to the warlock.Any attempt to move or use an invocation provokes an immediate AoO from the elemental.Not including the immediate attack it gets to hit you twice,grapple you with a +28 bonus,suck you into it's whirlwind,etc.Keep in mind that I'm also being nice to the Warlock on this one by summoning only 1 greater elemental as opposed to three the huge elementals that I could summon instead,each of which is roughly as tough as the Warlock,and if you are thinking of just hoping that dispel magic would work,that makes three elementals each requiring a separate invocation to even try to dispel them.And you still have to worry about spells or attacks from the cleric. As for Dming this,I would but I simply don't have the time it take,and it really is a foregone conclusion. For the record though,the warlock is one of my favourite classes.But the only way a warlock is going to win is if he and his equipment are optimized for the fight.The cleric needs one,maybe two spells.
Chie 07-25-07, 08:28 AM	By the way,I would also like to point out that the Eldritch Blast has a maximum range of 60 feet.That puts the Warlock within range a Destruction,easily reachable by Fire Storm and Flame Strike,Earthquake,a blade barrier centered on the warlock. In all fairness though,you could interpret Protection from Evil to protect against neutral summoned creatures,which I'll grant.However it won't protect you from the effects of the elementals whirlwind so your spellcasting is still screwed over. And keep in mind that I'm only working from the player's handbook.If I went to Divine Metamagic or anything else in the other books the fight would really be over.
stitchy1503 07-25-07, 08:07 PM	By the way,I would also like to point out that the Eldritch Blast has a maximum range of 60 feet. I'm sure any sane warlock would be using eldritch spear which is 250 ft range.
lord_xarallon 07-26-07, 09:24 AM	Anodai, it seems that none dares to DM this. Shall we reveal our character sheets and stategies?
Bluance 07-26-07, 01:23 PM	I guess i can dm this is noone else will, i can't gurantee that i'll be the best choice but meh noone else is gona do it. You'd have to tell me were your doing this battle and if your using a program send me a link. Also in an hour i'll be off to a class so around 6:00Pm *i'm in california i forget what timezone i'm in* i'll be back.
Mortimus 07-26-07, 03:16 PM	I am so glad that someone finally decided to DM this... :ayyyy!:
Anodai 07-26-07, 04:46 PM	im going away on Saturday for a week, i dont know if we can make it in
BalthazarDArgent 07-26-07, 04:52 PM	Blah, blah, blah. I play and love my Warlock - who would get his clocked cleaned by a cleric...and I'm boosted in all the right areas. You can concoct all the scenarios you want, but a well-played cleric is the most powerful character in the game. A Warlock comes in somewhere near the bottom. I can't believe this thread made it past the first few "no way" posts.
lord_xarallon 07-26-07, 08:23 PM	I'm going away on Saturday for a week, i dont know if we can make it in Yeah, that might pose a problem. I can wait (I have to go, but only for a few days). What about both of you?
Ian Demagi 07-27-07, 12:32 AM	If spell Compendium is in play Cleric wins-IMHO. Cleric can use Radiant Assault which has a a range of 400 ft + 40 per level. Thats is 15d6 and dazed for 1d6 rounds or save for half and be dazzeled for 1d6 rounds. Sound Lance is also in range at level 15 for 10d8 fort save for half- Even good old flame strike is in 250 ft range at level 15. Also it depends what the clerics domains are. Destruction for example has distintegrate at this level (15) .We have not even mentioned if the cleric has time to phone some allies-before I don my armour to kick your roody pooh- let me introduce Mr Planetar and Mr Kolyarut: they would like a word with you.... I guess with some lucky shots the warlock could win a few if it was 10 times maybe he would win twice, but normally I think the cleric wins. Ian.
Bluance 07-27-07, 01:31 AM	i can wait, i'm just in classes for the next three weeks so whenever we decide to do it i'll be there.
Unlimited 07-27-07, 08:49 AM	I got a close combat warlock build that might stand up to the challenge. Since I dont have that much experiance with high lvl clerics, I might be wrong tho.
lord_xarallon 07-27-07, 02:23 PM	i can wait, i'm just in classes for the next three weeks so whenever we decide to do it i'll be there. Ok. Then let's wait. I got a close combat warlock build that might stand up to the challenge. Since I dont have that much experiance with high lvl clerics, I might be wrong tho. High level clerics are badass in melee. But if he have not prepared the classical melee spells (divine power, righteous might, and some others) then he might have trouble.
Anodai 07-27-07, 03:31 PM	If you want someone else to take my place while I am away, be my guest
sigma999 07-27-07, 03:58 PM	O gods no, it's multiplied to 3 pages @_@
Ian Demagi 07-27-07, 03:59 PM	You guys need to PM each other-this doesn't belong on the discussion boards.
lord_xarallon 07-30-07, 02:59 PM	Just because we are waiting for the battle does not mean you cant discus it anymore.
RadicalTaoist 07-30-07, 06:56 PM	The Warlock doesn't have the mobility advantage. The cleric, if he is not lawful, can summon a Blue Slaad. That's as many Teleports as he'll need that won't even take up his actions. Know your summons, people.
ninjarabbit 07-30-07, 07:26 PM	Another interesting point is that the cleric can take reserve feats to mimic a warlock just to add more insult to injury. And in all honesty the cleric wins hands down. There's just way too many directions a cleric can go for a warlock to even consider countering them all, for example the spell domain alone gives a cleric many directions to go in, while a cleric can easily counter anything a warlock does.
lord_xarallon 08-02-07, 06:21 PM	He cant take reserve feats because of restricted material.
elthenar 08-04-07, 03:26 AM	I do agree that the Cleric is a much more powerful base class, but the Warlock is not without his options. I only skimmed through the thread, but the Warlocks best abilites seem to be getting overlooked. Warlocks get to take 10 on UMD and can make anything (from any spell list) with a UMD check. And the Warlock can get access to level 9 spells this way Soooo....the Warlock has a few scrolls or a staff of Summon Natures Ally 8 or 9. The Warlock likely wins initiative and casts time stopfrom a scroll, then summons something (or things) really big to grab the cleric or trample him. The Cleric is now on the defensive and either in a grapple or having just gotten trampled. The Warlock can now either blast away, or use more magic items on the Cleric (shapechange cheese anyone?). Likely win for the Warlock. Again, I don't dispute the power of a cleric, that would be silly. But Warlocks can pull a few dirty tricks of thier own.
crashlogic 08-04-07, 03:49 AM	I would say the cleric. While heavy armour does not really help against ranged touch attacks, to be sure, some of the magical armours are benficial. But really the cleric can cast some nasty spells, and wade in thumping with enough magical gear to make a fighter proud. In trhe right hands, the cleric is the most dangerous class in the game.
vierax 08-04-07, 09:58 AM	warlock with scroll of power word kill... its gonna be a short battle.
Damon_Caskey 08-04-07, 10:18 AM	warlock with scroll of power word kill... its gonna be a short battle. Except, opening the battle with it is a wasted action; it's gonna bounce of any decent d8 build at this level like a rubber ball and now it's the Cleric's turn. The Lock may as well have used the paper to paste a "Kick me" sign on himself. Later in the battle what's the point? As soon as one or the other gets an advantage in this fight, the show is over. Sure, PWK might be a cool way to end it, but there are better things the Lock can do with his time; especially if he isn't bored with life. DC
Treantmonklvl20 08-04-07, 10:50 AM	Warlock starting off with Time Stop seems like a good idea to me. Then start prepping the Nova for when the spell ends. Cleric goes kaboom. After all, they are talking about arena combat (worthless in determining relative strengths of classes), the warlock can fill up on 9th level spell scrolls. (less than 4000 gp each - were they talking about 15th level with 50000 gp or something along those lines?) With UMD and Warlocks auto take 10 on UMD he'll have no problem operating like a 17th level wizard.
Morrsleib 08-04-07, 11:43 AM	*lock max out dex (18 at start + Level 4, 8 and 12 = 21 (isn't there a invocation who grants + 4 to dex) and ini in general. you Would problaly has the highest ini. use the following scrolls: Time stop 3825 gp let's say 3 delayed blast fire ball 6825 gp Powerword kill 3825 gp (Quickned greater dispel magic) 3825 gp prismatic sphere 3825 gp you'll need the scribe scroll feat, quicken sla and maximize sla and imp ini. use scribe scroll to scribe all of these yourself halving the gp cost) let's say you win ini move closer to the cleric use time stop. use prismatic sphere and as many delayed blast fireball as you can, when you are just beside the cleric, set the fireballs to detonating next round leave again see what the cleric can do to you in your prismatic sphere. you again: dismiss prismatic sphere use powerword kill use the Quickned greater dispel magic when you want to take any spell resistance away. and quickened maximized EB for more dam this should probably kill the cleric who isn't especially prepared for this. (if you have acces consider using celerity for instant win =)
vierax 08-04-07, 01:05 PM	probebly. also you keep talking about the clerics superior armor. first it dosnt matter against touch attacks, somebody already said that i think though. and second a warlock with battle caster and mithral armor can wear full plate with no failure chance. Quote: Originally Posted by vierax View Post warlock with scroll of power word kill... its gonna be a short battle. Except, opening the battle with it is a wasted action; it's gonna bounce of any decent d8 build at this level like a rubber ball and now it's the Cleric's turn. The Lock may as well have used the paper to paste a "Kick me" sign on himself. Later in the battle what's the point? As soon as one or the other gets an advantage in this fight, the show is over. Sure, PWK might be a cool way to end it, but there are better things the Lock can do with his time; especially if he isn't bored with life. DC i didnt mean open the battle with it. wear down the cleric alittle and then use it.
moscatabaco76 08-05-07, 05:49 PM	Cleric is a vastly more powerful class. But that doesn't prevent a Warlock from having a rather good chance. My built would be something like this Warlock Human Feats: 1.- Point Blank Shot, 3.- Weapon FOcus (Eldritch Ray) 6.- Epower Spell-like Ability (eldritch Blast) 9.- Maximize Spell-like Ability (EB) 12.- Quicken Spell-Like Ability (EB) 15.- Improved Initiative (An optimal race would be Halfling, with +2 Dex and +1 on attacks for being small, but that's besides the point) With 15,000 GP you can't get a lot. I'd Get Warlock's Specter at ~8,500gp (it's less but whatever), Eldritch Gloves at 2,500gp, and gloves of dex +2 for 4,000gp. My main attribute would be dex to win initiative. Of course, shall the cleric go first (s)he would fry this warlock immediately. Should the warlock go first, he could own the cleric just as easy. IIRC at 15th level EB is 7d6. Use three charges from the gloves and one from the scepter and thats 12d6. Empower maximize that and you'll inflict 72+(12d6/2) hp damage, for an average of 93 damage. Then Quicken Empower Maximize it (spell-like abilities can be metamagicked 3 timeas a day) this time using three charges from the scepter and one from the gloves. That's another ~93 damage, for a total of 186. Of course a cone shape would be best for a surehit, as clerics rarely have high reflex bonuses. Without con bonuses, a 15th level cleric has 71 hp on average (killed even if it makes both saves); one with a +2 con mod thats 101 hp and with +4 con (which is a stetch) 131 hp; in both cases pwnd unless they make both saves. And realistically, if it has obviously high con, skip the cone and hit with ranged touch. Also, the above build works in game (is not custom made for this thread). Clerics usually focus on con, wis and cha, so warlcks have good chances against them. Finally, there's one thing to consider: Warlocks usually have their invocations active at all times, simply because there's no reason not to have them ready. Which means our warlck should start the fight invisible. I don't know is we should assume the cleric knows his starting position, if not well he's screwed :D
lord_xarallon 08-05-07, 08:29 PM	You are using some things you are not allowed to use. Eldritch gloves. And how do get warlocks scepter? Some of the feats like quicken spell-like ability isn't in phb 3.5, CArc or CD.
lord_xarallon 08-10-07, 08:06 PM	As it seem this battle will not occur because I cannot reach the DM (Bluance) or the other combatant playing the cleric (Anodai).
mad_warlock 08-11-07, 10:28 AM	Okay guys, I gotta chime in and put my 2 cents into this. I'm an avid warlock fan. Just look at my handle. Point is, the Cleric and Warlock, being PC classes, aren't meant to fight each other. they are meant to fight monsters. In fact, recently my warlock and the cleric in our group got seperated from the party, and we held our own against a Black Dragon with a CR 4 higher than the two of us, and won. Cleric and Warlock's work wonderful together. The warlock takes care of the offense and the AOE's, and the Cleric summons in help and uses his slots to keep the group alive. Think of a cleric and warlock working together like a Spartan Phalanx (think 300 here.) The cleric puts up the shields to protect their allies, and the warlock shoots out the spears (or eldritch spears in this instance). But, now onto the matter at hand: when one fights another. If the two simply met randomly, with no chance to prepare for each other, with no heads up, it's actually a pretty tough call, believe it or not, even with the cleric's 8th level spells at this level. Assuming, of course, that the two are fully rested, and have all their abilities (magic items included) available to them, the Cleric is most likely going to win, if he wins initiative. That pretty much goes without saying though for ANY spellcasting class above 13th level (at which spells like Finger of Death come into play.) Especially for higher level classes with things like time stop and Power Word Kill. You must remember that a Warlock does not TECHNICALLY fall into "spellcasting" class. A Warlock is like an arcane Turret. He's a reliable, readily available, long lasting source of damage. Of course, at higher levels, it's like firing machine gun fire at a wall of iron. It's not MUCH damage...but it's kind of like peeing in the ocean, every little bit helps. :P Clerics, on the other hand, have a bit more staying power than other spellcasters not just because of the healing, but because of the long-lasting buffs they have. Of course, if your doing the Persistant Divine Metamagic cheese...then..well..yeah. In the end, it all comes down to initiative. Assuming that both characters start de-buffed, such as turning the corner, and seeing each other after running into a Dispel Magic trap (which I've seen happen, btw.)...it should actually prove to be an interesting fight. The Terrain is also a huge factor. Warlocks tend to have more mobility than clerics, due to flight and Flee the Scene and what have you, so any kind of outdoor terrain, such as dense foliage, can hamper the Cleric while not so much for the Warlock. The Cleric could cast Freedom of Movement, and we could get into this argument about dispelling and such, but that's still an action that the cleric has to use to cast his spell. The Warlock's key to winning this fight, if at all possible, is this: Any action that the Cleric has to waste to heal himself, Buff himself, or Free himself from grappling, etc is an action that the warlock has to deal more damage or to get farther away from said cleric. In a head on battle, Cleric is going to mop the floor with the warlock just before handing him his own ass. Period. No if's and's or buts. But then again, it worked for the Americans in the revolutionary war didn't it? We didn't fight them head on. We had to use guerilla tactics, we had to use the terrain to our advantage, and that in tail is the fun in playing a Warlock. A Warlock isn't meant to be a heavy hitter...but with the right amount of stealth, the right amount of guile, and the right tricks up our sleeves at just the right time, Warlock's are a force to be reckoned with. Personally, I would wanna see the fight. Because if you just put a Warlock and a Cleric in the hands of two newbie players, who don't powergame, who just straight duke it out, the Warlock gets Pwned. However, I wanna see the player PLAYING the warlock. DnD isn't just power builds, it's skill, it's strategy. Let's see if the OBVIOUSLY out-gunned Warlock can outsmart the Cleric, and see how it goes from there. Cause you have to remember folks. Sometimes it's not how big your guns are...it's how well they are placed. :)
lord_xarallon 08-11-07, 07:25 PM	However, I wanna see the player PLAYING the warlock. How I look does not change the battle... :D :D Jokes aside, so would I but see my previous post.
vierax 08-11-07, 07:45 PM	http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=897747&highlight=the+warlock+revised the warlock presented in the link above is a bit more powerfull than the one presented in complete arcane. i think it could stand up to a cleric farly well.
mad_warlock 08-12-07, 02:53 AM	Oh haha, Xarallon, very funny. You know, this post has me thinking....hmm... :)
mad_warlock 08-12-07, 02:54 AM	I volunteer to play the Cleric. I'll do a standard Cleric build (No nightstick or Divine metamagic cheese), prepare a normal allotment of spells for that level, and use all the books listed with a 15,000gp gold limit. I will also post a level by level progression for said cleric, so as to make sure everything I do is all nice and legal. I won't pull any punches, and I don't expect you to either. I LOVE watching other people play Warlocks...because then it teaches me new ways to play them, which is one of the best experiences of DnD: Learning to play characters in ways you never imagined before. :)
lord_xarallon 08-12-07, 08:33 AM	I volunteer to play the Cleric. I'll do a standard Cleric build (No nightstick or Divine metamagic cheese), prepare a normal allotment of spells for that level, and use all the books listed with a 15,000gp gold limit. I will also post a level by level progression for said cleric, so as to make sure everything I do is all nice and legal. I won't pull any punches, and I don't expect you to either. I LOVE watching other people play Warlocks...because then it teaches me new ways to play them, which is one of the best experiences of DnD: Learning to play characters in ways you never imagined before. :) I would like a reassignment from Anodai before this happens. You are allowed to use divine metamagic (just make sure you are doing it the right/legal way, ie have the metamagic feat, just read up on it) unless that is what the OP means with nightstick build (one would uses nightsticks to fuel divine metamagic I think (might be wrong)) because then it would be a DM's call whether divine metamagic is allowed because it is the essence of a nightstick build which is not allowed (by the OP).
vierax 08-12-07, 11:13 AM	the battle or whatever you want to call it will take place on this thread right?
gullas 08-12-07, 01:39 PM	cleric....
Anodai 08-12-07, 02:41 PM	I find it interesting how the OP posted the first post and left the thread I would like a reassignment from Anodai before this happens. mad_warlock can play the cleric (warlock plays cleric...). im having some family troubles so i wont be able to do much for a while. P.S. please either post the builds play by play of the battle or PM it to me when you are done: I really wanted to see how this turned out.
Staple 08-12-07, 03:03 PM	OK, let's take a look at the options. We'll assume each character has been built with the idea of fighting the other class in mind. That is, St. Joseph the Cleric has been built to fight "A Warlock," not "Nefarious Lou the Warlock" and Nefarious Lou the Warlock has been designed to fight "A Cleric," not "St. Joseph the Cleric." (The implication is that neither is aware of the other's specific build) St. Joseph the Cleric has at his disposal: -Stats: +11 Base Attack, 15d8+CON hit dice, good Fort and Will saves. His will save will be enormous due to his high Wisdom score. -Proficiencies: Simple Weapons, light-to-heavy armor, shields. If he has the War Domain he also has at least 1 martial proficiency. -Class Features: 2 Domain powers, Spellcasting, Turn Attempts (more useful than you think), spontaneous casting -Spellcasting in General: Up to 8th level. Thought it's possible for the cleric to run out of spells, it is unlikely. -Destruction (spell): Forces a Warlock to make a Fort save (a bad save for a Warlock) or die. If built to emphasize this, St. Joseph could kill a Warlock in 1 round. -Divine Transformation (spell): Turn himself into a beatstick that makes a minimum of 3 attacks per round and has a colossal strength score. If the Warlock wants to stand up to this, he'll need to be able to get away quickly. -Divine Metamagic (feat): The Cleric can spend Turn/Rebuke attempts to fuel metamagic. This is deadly when selected for Quicken Spell and any buff spell. -Relic Items: He can use the one for his deity without using a feat slot. -Primary Weakness: Mobility. Most Clerics wear heavy armor, making them move slowly and generally relegating DEX to a dump stat, putting their Initiative and already poor Reflex save in the crapper. -Primary Strength: Endurance. Pound-for-pound, a Cleric can take more punishment than pretty much any other character (Dwarven Defender aside). With heavy armor and full spellcasting that includes the most efficient healing spell (Heal) in the game as well as having good progression for the two saves that are usually required for "Save or Die" spells, knocking a Cleric to -10 usually takes some cleverness to accomplish. Knocking a level 15 cleric to 1 HP, only to see him fire off a Divinely quickened Heal, go back to 151 and still have a full round action available is an entirely possible scenario. Nefarious Lou has at his disposal: -Stats: +11 Base Attack, 15d6+CON hit dice, good Will Save. He "casts" off Charisma and therefore gains no immediate benefits from his casting stat. -Proficiencies: Simple Weapons, Light Armor. He can burn a feat for a martial weapon, but heavier armor and shields interfere with his casting. -Class Features: DR 4/Cold Iron, Fiendish Resilience 2, Detect Magic, Deceive Item, Invocations -Spellcasting in General: A level 15 Warlock has 9 invocations, up to "Greater" in power. Unlike the cleric, he can't run out of spells per day. -Fell Flight (Invocation): Clerics, due to their spell list and automatic proficiencies, are not particularly well-endowed when it comes to dealing with foes at range. The ability to fly should keep Lou out of the Cleric's reach. -Eldritch Spear (Invocation): Bring the Eldritch Blast range up to 250 feet, it's entirely possible that Lou can fly above his foe and blast him again and again, out of his enemy's range, until he runs out of healing and submits. -Primary Weakness: Fragility. Stuck with light armor, a small hit die, and two bad saves, one well-placed hit can put a Warlock in serious trouble. Warlocks are also dependent on Use Magic Device checks with wands and rods to heal themselves. -Primary Strengths Mobility & Sustainability: In light armor, the Warlock's speed is going to be about 30 feet (possibly more, depending on his feats/equipment). He also has access to Fell Flight, and can keep out of the Cleric's way. In addition, the Warlock never runs out of Invocations, and so can wage a war of attrition with the cleric. All things considered, I'd say the odds are stacked in favor of the Cleric. He can weather the Warlock for a very long time and requires only a few lucky shots to defeat the Warlock. Most of the Warlock's strategies can be overcome by the Cleric's spell selection (for example, the Fell Flight/Eldritch Spear combo can be overcome by Summoning flying monsters to go up after him).
lord_xarallon 08-12-07, 04:37 PM	I find it interesting how the OP posted the first post and left the thread mad_warlock can play the cleric (warlock plays cleric...). im having some family troubles so i wont be able to do much for a while. P.S. please either post the builds play by play of the battle or PM it to me when you are done: I really wanted to see how this turned out. I'm glad to hear from you, but I'm sorry to hear that you have problems. I hope it works out for you. Well, I plan to reveal my build AFTER the battle.
lord_xarallon 08-13-07, 10:18 AM	After all, they are talking about arena combat (worthless in determining relative strengths of classes), Why arena combat? Why these arena size limitations? Bluance is still the DM and the cleric will be played by mad_warlock. I sent a pm to to WizO_Paradox asking if there was a place to conduct this battle, but he hasn't responded yet.
starfire311 08-13-07, 12:16 PM	You are using some things you are not allowed to use. Eldritch gloves. And how do get warlocks scepter? Some of the feats like quicken spell-like ability isn't in phb 3.5, CArc or CD. and this is the flaw in the argument IMO... both should have access to more source material... If I were doing this I would allow access to all Complete books, dragon magic, spell compendium, MIC, PHB, PHB2, DMG, DMG2, MM I-V, FF, Both fiendish codexes, Heck why not XPH, ToB, MoI, ToM and all the race books too. And they would all get standard level 15 gold on gear as well. The warlock definatly needs the extra options to be able to compete, since it has very few invocations in Complete arcane, compared to what the Cleric gets for spells in Complete Divine + PHB
lord_xarallon 08-13-07, 12:22 PM	and this is the flaw in the argument IMO... both should have access to more source material... If I were doing this I would allow access to all Complete books, dragon magic, spell compendium, MIC, PHB, PHB2, DMG, DMG2, MM I-V, FF, Both fiendish codexes, Heck why not XPH, ToB, MoI, ToM and all the race books too. And they would all get standard level 15 gold on gear as well. The warlock definatly needs the extra options to be able to compete, since it has very few invocations in Complete arcane, compared to what the Cleric gets for spells in Complete Divine + PHB Yes, the warlock takes some punches by the limited material, but I still think I have a chance to win.
mad_warlock 08-13-07, 10:40 PM	I will also keep my build a secret until after the battle. Furthermore, how are we doing hit points? maximum? Average? What about stats? are we using point buy? rolling?
lord_xarallon 08-14-07, 12:42 AM	I will also keep my build a secret until after the battle. Furthermore, how are we doing hit points? maximum? Average? What about stats? are we using point buy? rolling? Maximum HP per HD. Yes that favors you, I know that and I knew it when I suggested it. We are using the point buy system with 28 points.
weasel05 08-14-07, 07:27 AM	Easy The Warlock just takes 3 evocations all are active 24 hours a day Eldritch spear Fell flight Walk unseen Voritilic blast NO spell resistance, ranged touch attack, dose ongoing acid damage Just Fly around invisibe 250 feet above the cleric dishing out 7d6 Damage from Eldrich spear + vortilic blast and just because you can and have so many other evoctions at that level See the unseen (incase he spen his money on a ring of invisibility or has some weird domain) Summon swarm (always handy to distract) Flee the scene (just keep bouncing around re hiding so that he cant get a decent attack on you) Devour magic No reson to let him keep any perminate spells going
Anodai 08-14-07, 11:01 AM	Devour magic No reason to let him keep any terminate spells going This is a high threat invocation in my book
lord_xarallon 08-14-07, 11:04 AM	You are giving the warlock a lot of credit, Weasel. Firing a blast while under effect of Walk Unseen makes you visible. It have been mentioned that energi immunity (acid) was a good way to to counter Voritilic blast. And in the current arena I cannot fly higher then 50 minus my own height or I lose.
TaiSharShaidar 08-14-07, 11:49 AM	You know at 1 level higher this fight goes to a counter spelling warlock hands down, 1 Inquisition Domain draught (+4 to dispel) Elvin spell lore (+2 dispel), Arcane mastery (take 10 on dispel checks). That plus the evocation that lets him use greater dispel magic, and boom auto counter auto dispel spells of CL 21 or less. Plus Fell Flight, hmm no, melee no magic, add invisibility and ranged weapons become useless. This could be wrong; I’ll have to try one of these as a master dispeller in a campaign.
mad_warlock 08-14-07, 12:48 PM	You know at 1 level higher this fight goes to a counter spelling warlock hands down, 1 Inquisition Domain draught (+4 to dispel) Elvin spell lore (+2 dispel), Arcane mastery (take 10 on dispel checks). That plus the evocation that lets him use greater dispel magic, and boom auto counter auto dispel spells of CL 21 or less. Plus Fell Flight, hmm no, melee no magic, add invisibility and ranged weapons become useless. This could be wrong; I’ll have to try one of these as a master dispeller in a campaign. Problem: Devour Magic is a touch attack. It says "Your TOUCH delivers a Greater Dispel magic, as the spell." Which means Mr. Warlock has to get close and TOUCH the Cleric....which can be bad. :P
lord_xarallon 08-14-07, 01:50 PM	The invocation allows me to deliver a targeted greater dispel magic with my touch. I don't think it can be used to counter spelling. VORACIOUS DISPELLING on the other can be used that way.
mad_warlock 08-14-07, 03:09 PM	Voracious Dispelling can be used to counterspell, yes, because it's not just a targetted dispel. It also has the nice little addition of doing damage as spells get removed.
weasel05 08-14-07, 07:29 PM	This is a high threat invocation in my book sorry my bad i ment to use Voracious dispelling I am aware that once the warlock attacks he becomes visible but Using flee the sceen, an image of you remain for one more round and you be come invisible around the otherside of the cleric. visibility is not an isue
mad_warlock 08-15-07, 07:59 PM	True Seeing. 'nuff said. Either that, or making your Spellcraft Roll to identify Flee the Scene. Hey, look, I know what it is...oh, look, I know he's around here somewhere, and that's an illusion.
TaiSharShaidar 08-15-07, 10:13 PM	Problem: Devour Magic is a touch attack. It says "Your TOUCH delivers a Greater Dispel magic, as the spell." Which means Mr. Warlock has to get close and TOUCH the Cleric....which can be bad. The invocation i am talking about is caster's lament from complete mage, it allows counterspelling as a if casting a greater dispel magic, only works on 7th level or lower spells but meh. That leaves the 16th level cleric what, 3 spells 4? That is not many.
lord_xarallon 08-16-07, 02:23 AM	The invocation i am talking about is caster's lament from complete mage, it allows counterspelling as a if casting a greater dispel magic, only works on 7th level or lower spells but meh. That leaves the 16th level cleric what, 3 spells 4? That is not many. Problem: Cant use Complete Mage...
Anodai 08-16-07, 01:38 PM	well, in spring '08 none of it will matter... http://theminiaturespage.com/news/519193/ the end is near
Bluance 08-18-07, 04:05 PM	so has there been any thought on were we can actually Do this battle at? as we stand now, all of these ideas are just, ideas, unless we can get the acutall battle to happen.
lord_xarallon 08-19-07, 07:47 AM	The old CoC spoke of not being allowed to have combat in non-combat places, but that part is there no longer. The COre COliseum (http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=483) seems to be a proper place, but it have its own rules so maybe not. I will resend the PM I sent.