Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Reldo 05-30-06, 09:42 PM	My favorite classes are Cleric and Wizard, and I can't decide which to play as. They are both of about the smae power level and they both are fun to play as. But then I saw the Mystic Theurge prestige class and thought that that my indesisive problems were over. Unforunatly, they only got bigger, and now I can't decide between straight Cleric, straight Wizard, or Mystic Theurge. Any suggestions on which I should pick and why?
starfire311 05-30-06, 10:04 PM	check out arcane hierphant... that will make you even more indecisive. seriously... it depends completly on you and the type of character you have a mental image of that you fell might be fun to RP. From a powergaming perspective, I believe that single casters are stronger than the double casters throgh out the most of the career. at the end of successful double caster build I think the double casters pull ahead.
Todd 05-30-06, 10:49 PM	Pure Cleric or pure Wizard is usually better than a Mystic Theurge. The MT has two casting stats & is fairly weak, especially around level 4-8. The MT also can't take advantage of the cleric's ability to wear armor.
Kresalak 05-30-06, 10:52 PM	The only way to make a MT really work involves being either an evil Ur-Priest or being an Arcane Heirophant. Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/MT 8/Full casting PrC 4 is good for the first, and the second is druid 3/wizard 3/MT 2/AH 10/MT 2.
Rpgraccoon 05-30-06, 10:57 PM	You could try an Archivist you be like a wizard but cast all divine spells. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3
Sledged 05-31-06, 12:00 AM	Another option is the Rainbow Servant from the Complete Divine. At tenth level, cleric spells get added to your spell list. The drawback is your spell progression is behind by four levels.
serow_#R 05-31-06, 12:21 AM	a cleric/warmage/mystic theurge might a fun change of pace :D
Lotus Crane 05-31-06, 12:22 AM	Pure Cleric or pure Wizard is usually better than a Mystic Theurge. The MT has two casting stats & is fairly weak, especially around level 4-8. The MT also can't take advantage of the cleric's ability to wear armor. Actually, an archivist/wizard MT only needs Int, and there are enough armor materials (mithral), properties (twilight), and additions (thistledown suit) that a wizard could wear light, or maybe even medium, armor without worrying about an arcane spell failure chance.
DaneDarkblade 05-31-06, 10:29 AM	ok I play a mystic thurge curently 3cleric 3wiz 2thurge. I have realy good stats so I do not care about two difrent ones since there both 18. The party is in the worlds largest dungen with no sign of exit. I have the feet that lets you basicly use your total level for caster level so all I gave up was a little spell progression. Heres the cool thing I can use my spells for battle control and damage admitaly flaming sphere is not a fire ball but it works out for us. Plus my raven familure can tag the fighters and deliver my heal spells.
Milo HoBo 05-31-06, 10:34 AM	A shujenja also seems to combine some wizard and cleric aspects with an oriental twist.
Sledged 05-31-06, 12:14 PM	Actually, an archivist/wizard MT only needs Int...The archivist's bonus spell slots are determined by Wis.
The_Geek 05-31-06, 12:38 PM	If you want to go the MT route, you might also want to throw in a level of Monk. It's a pretty decent starting class - D8 (same as Cleric), 4 base skill, really nice saves, and, most importantly, adds wis bonus to AC. To be an effective MT, you're forced to skip armour (well, apart from taking the lobotomized wizard known as the war mage, as someone else suggested ;) Apart from the AH, that's possibly the best route to become a fully armoured Cleric/(limited)Wizard. ) And, of course, the best race for the combo is Vanara. ;) +2 WIS and +2 INT (and -2 STR :( )
Sledged 05-31-06, 01:12 PM	If you want to go the MT route, you might also want to throw in a level of Monk. It's a pretty decent starting class - D8 (same as Cleric), 4 base skill, really nice saves, and, most importantly, adds wis bonus to AC. To be an effective MT, you're forced to skip armourThe problem with this build is that you'll have a mnk 1/wiz 3/cle 3, which means you'll be stuck with the multiclassing XP penalty. To ditch the penalty you'll need the Precocious Apprentice feat and a race whose favored class is either cleric or "any." Then you can meet the PrC requirements as a mnk 1/wiz 1/cle 3.
NineInchNall 06-01-06, 12:30 AM	Ack! Precocious Apprentice does not qualify you for MT! For the umpteenth time already ... :rolleyes:
Sledged 06-01-06, 12:41 AM	Ack! Precocious Apprentice does not qualify you for MT! For the umpteenth time already ... :rolleyes:I fail to see why not.
NineInchNall 06-01-06, 12:51 AM	Aside from any RAI concerns, the second level spell and slot that it gives you disappear upon your gaining the ability to cast second level spells. So as soon as you hit Cleric 3, you lose the benefit of PA. *shrug* Trust me, we went through all of this on the CO board over a year ago now.
meatrace 06-01-06, 02:12 AM	I like the mystic theurge, dispite its obvious drawbacks. the best way to go (IMHO) is wiz3/clr3/myt10, then 4 more levels of wizard to get those all-important 9th level spells. you unfortunately can't gain access to 9th level cleric AND wiz spells by 20th level, but at least you can get wiz spells, which (with the exception of maybe mass heal and miracle) are uniformly better than clr9 spells. for maximum synergy I suggest becoming a specialist wizard in divination and choose evocation as your prohib school. AFAIK prohibited school doesn't prevent you casting those spells from a different class. then be a cleric with the magic and spell domains. I wouldn't worry about not being able to wear armor, just make sure you have an extended mage armor or greater mage armor on at all times and you should be golden. the MAD kinda sucks, but as long as you have a good int, a decent wis, and hopefully an ok con the build should be quite solid and have plenty of fun and longevity.
Toxic_Shaman 06-01-06, 08:13 AM	MTs make decent support characters, but they are usually pretty far behind the power curve. At 9th level your Cler 3/Wiz 3/MT 3 is casting third levels spells while your straight class wizard 9 or Cleric 9 are casting 5th level spells. Their lower level spells are more effective than the MT's spells because they have a higher caster level and are more likely to penetrate Spell Resistance. And your MT doesn't really have that many more spells than a single class caster. A 9th level Specialist Wizard would have 19 spells from spell level 1-5. Your Cler 3/Wiz 3/MT 3 has 22 spells from levels 1-3. Not that much different, and most of the MTs spells are first and second level spells. Another thing to think about is the opportunity cost of going MT. The class grants NO class abilities other than dual casting. The Wizard and Cleric could be taking prestige classes that advance their spellcasting each level AND get additional class abilities at the same time. An alternative to playing an MT is to play a Wizard and take the Arcane Disciple Feat from Complete Divine. That Feat allows you to add all the spells from a Single Domain to the list of spells you can learn. Its a gret way to play a wizard that worships a specific diety and casts a few cleric spells. That way you can keep your caster level up while still giving the character a little divine flavor.
Sledged 06-01-06, 10:44 AM	I've seen a few of the arguments, and I know what the general consensus is.So as soon as you hit Cleric 3, you lose the benefit of PA. *shrug*The benefit isn't lost. It just changes:When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the previous benefit described above. Instead, you simply have an extra 2nd-level spell slot, which you may use to prepare (or spontaneously cast, if you are a spontaneous caster) 2nd-level or lower spells as you normally would.You lose the ability to cast the spell, but in return you gain an extra 2nd-level slot. It's the same principle as a bard using Improved Spell Capacity to meet the prequisite for Epic Spellcasting. If one works so will the other.
Rixuzalthu 06-01-06, 01:15 PM	I've read a lot of discussion about the Mystic Theurge. I tried a different take on it. I played a a female elven sorcerer(Fey Bloodline)/evangelist/mystic theurge. Evangelists cast divine spells like a sorcerer. I wore light armor and had a buckler. I took every arcane spell without a somatic component(no arcane spell failure). A few were true strike, knock, charm whatever, suggestion, geas(lesser). All in all, she was a fun character. She was a great support character for the party and liked making wonderous items. She used a bow quite well(elven) and often charmed the fighter in the party to protect herself(now thats a shield). Clerics are good for what they do, wizards are super vesatile, mystic theurge was fun for a little while. Straight classes are always more powerful in thier spellcasting field. In the end, I worked her in as cohort to a Lizardfolk/1/2 water elemntal/Druid. Do you want to have melee combat and spells? pick Cleric Do you want lots of spell power with no melee? pick Wizard Do you want to be a good team player? pick Mystic Theurge route.
Ikeren 06-01-06, 01:57 PM	Ack! Precocious Apprentice does not qualify you for MT! For the umpteenth time already Not this arguement, not here, not again. I've read the CO thread on it and it isn't conclusive either way - some say yes, some say no. Ask your DM if he says it does. I have a DM that says yes
kelvinaw273 06-01-06, 03:08 PM	I would say that the MT is actually quite a good class. But your selection of stats and feats is important. If you go the standard wizard/cleric route, you start as a cleric, period. You switch to wizard by level 3, and you take Practiced Caster. By level 6 you are Cleric 3/wizard 3 with Practiced Caster taken again. If you do as suggested and take a level in Monk at this stage (and you are human) then your monk level does not count against multi-classing. You are now 7th level, casting spells for a 3rd-level wizard and cleric at 7th level of casting. Now you start clocking up MT levels, and claw back what you have lost over the next few levels. This is your weakest moment, but from here up to 17th level is plain sailing. Now if your dice rolls or point build do not allow you to go for a MAD character, there is Option 2: Max out charisma, and start as a level 1 Favoured Soul, then add level 1 Sorcerer. You can't start on MT until 8th level, but this actually makes you tougher when you get there. Forget the monk level, it's not worth it anyway. Take a deity that uses a missile weapon and avoid combat if you can, and take practiced caster twice as before. Place your second-best stats on dex and intelligence - dex for AC, intelligence because your skills will suck if you don't. Once again, the levels 4-9 tend to be weak, but once you have two levels of MT under your belt the fact that you don't have the higher level spells is made up for by the shear number of low-level spells you can throw.
ninjarabbit 06-01-06, 03:10 PM	A cleric with proper domain choices can do almost anything a wizard does so going mystic theurge is almost unnecessary, the only reason I can see for going MT is if you like casting a ton of low level spells or for item creation.
da chicken 06-01-06, 06:53 PM	IMO, the biggest problem with MT is the fact that it only has 10 levels. If it was a 14 level PrC, it would be much more attractive to play since you wouldn't be only useful at levels 11-15 and be screwed for the last 4 levels of the game because you have to go back to single spellcaster levels. I do like the concept of an Archivist/Wiz/MT, though.
Soulmage 06-01-06, 07:09 PM	I'm surprised nobody has suggested a True Necromancer to him. Its a lot like the MT at its core, but it has a nifty necromancy twist on it. A much cooler character concept IMO.
Kresalak 06-01-06, 08:43 PM	I'm surprised nobody has suggested a True Necromancer to him. Its a lot like the MT at its core, but it has a nifty necromancy twist on it. A much cooler character concept IMO. No one has suggested TN because it sucks.
NineInchNall 06-01-06, 09:11 PM	Well, it is better than an MT under certain circumstances. Specifically, if you don't have access to any fast casting PrCs, the TN ends up with the same basic spellcasting ability as a Wiz 5/Cleric 5/Mystic Theurge 10. The TN, on the other hand, has a whole slew of class features on top of that. So, if you're not going to use Nar Demonbinder, Beholder Mage, Sublime Chord, Apostle of Peace, or Ur-priest (izzat all of them?) then True Necromancer is a better option for the Cleric based dual caster than is Mystic Theurge. Add those classes into the mix and there's no reason to take True Necro.
AvaronGansdell 06-01-06, 10:56 PM	the best mix is the druid3/wizard3/Mt2/AH10/MT2. but useing just Mystic Thurge cleric2 (start with practiced spellcaster even though its useless till 3ed) 3ed level take first wizard level and practiced spellcaster for wizard grabbing you caster level 3 wizard right off the bat making your few spells better. then 3ed level cleric and two more wizard after that then into MT. so Cleric2/wizard1/cleric1/wizard2/MT10 or if you want interesting favored soul2/sorcerer1/favored soul2/sorcerer3/MT10 be sure to grab the Versitile Spellcaster from races of the dragon so you can cast up spells.