Cleric Weapons and Eldritch Knights [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cleric Weapons and Eldritch Knights [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
SeattleLightning
10-05-06, 12:07 PM Hello all,

I'm new to the message boards but am a long time DM. I have two questions about the 3.5 rules and would appreciate some input. Currently my campaign only allows the core rule books.

First Question: The PHB states that Clerics use their diety assigned weapon as a point of pride. How strict of a requirement is this? Obviously its not the only weapon they're allowed to use as even the basic build examples in the PHB give a Cleric a crossbow in with their starting equipment. Is it a point of pride for Clerics of the given faith in general, or for each cleric? Can a player have an eccentric Heironeous Cleric who uses a greatsword and never even touches a longsword? Is this a violation of ethos, or just an oddity?

Second Question: I have a player who has a Wizard/Fighter turned Eldritch Knight. Upon gaining levels as an EK, I informed the player that although they would continue to gain their wizard spell progression as outlined in the EK description, that they would not gain the 2 free spells per level for their spell books since this is a wizard class feature. They disagreed with my interpretation. Which one of us is more likely in line with the intention of the rules?
SeattleLightning
10-05-06, 01:34 PM One other thing... what specific weapon (diety assigned or whatever its called) does a Cleric use if he doesn't have a designated god?
2nd Ed Paladin
10-05-06, 02:13 PM 1. Cleric's weapons: The clerics do not have to use their diety's favoured weapon although they generally do. A cleric can normally use any simple weapon.

If a cleric doesn't have a god then there is no favoured wepaon and they can use any of the simple wepaons.

2. Extra spells
SRD:Spells per Day: From 2nd level on, when a new eldritch knight level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of eldritch knight to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.

Emphasis mine: Your interpretation appears to be correct. They can still add spells from other spellbooks or scrolls though.
SeattleLightning
10-05-06, 02:35 PM And to follow this chain of logic I assume that any cleric can use a martial or exotic weapon assuming that he either has the appropriate martial or exotic weapon feat, or is willing to suffer the -4 penalty for not being proficient in the given weapon?
2nd Ed Paladin
10-05-06, 02:44 PM That would be correct.
Templario
10-05-06, 02:52 PM No, only the War domain gives proficiency. If he wants to use a marital weapon without War domain, he has to get a feat or a level in any class that gives the proficiency
JulesCARV
10-05-06, 03:02 PM Right. That's what SeattleLightning said.
oracle71
10-05-06, 03:25 PM Second Question: I have a player who has a Wizard/Fighter turned Eldritch Knight. Upon gaining levels as an EK, I informed the player that although they would continue to gain their wizard spell progression as outlined in the EK description, that they would not gain the 2 free spells per level for their spell books since this is a wizard class feature. They disagreed with my interpretation. Which one of us is more likely in line with the intention of the rules?

By this logic, a fighter1/sorceror6/eldritch knight100 will never have access to any spell over 3rd level, and he would only know one spell of 3rd level. I think the intent of "gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before" was to allow the caster to acquire new spells as they did in their original class.
Elemental_Master
10-05-06, 03:37 PM On topic Q.: If you have no deity and take War domain which Martial weapon do you get?
2nd Ed Paladin
10-05-06, 04:05 PM By this logic, a fighter1/sorceror6/eldritch knight100 will never have access to any spell over 3rd level, and he would only know one spell of 3rd level. I think the intent of "gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before" was to allow the caster to acquire new spells as they did in their original class.

Although it is idiotic, that is correct. If you look at the Loremaster description it specifically says "and spells known" which seems to indicate the difference is intentional as both are in the same book.

SRD: Loremaster: Spells per Day/Spells Known: When a new loremaster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of loremaster to the level of some other spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly.

The Archmage says the same thing:
SRD Archmage: Spells per Day/Spells Known: When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level.

It appears tht is what WoTC intended. As arcane trickster uses the same terminology as EK it appears WoTC did not want spontaneous casters taking either of these classes.

Personally, I would houserule otherwise for spontaneous casters but would not allow the extra spells known for wizards.
SeattleLightning
10-05-06, 04:21 PM I never considered the connotations of a Sorceror not getting new spells. Is there a "higher power" we can send this up to? I mean, can we get the writers (admin?) to chime in with an "official" response? Again, I'm a longtime DM/player, but have only recently discovered the forums for this.
SeattleLightning
10-05-06, 04:22 PM Also, what is WoTC?
SeattleLightning
10-05-06, 04:25 PM On topic Q.: If you have no deity and take War domain which Martial weapon do you get?

Another unanswered question. Based on the answers given in this thread, as DM, I would personally rule that it would be in any one martial weapon of your choice.
2nd Ed Paladin
10-05-06, 04:55 PM Also, what is WoTC?

Wizards of the Coast - the developers of DnD 3.5.

There is a FaQ and rules errata you can check (see the Rules of the Game section of the boards).

Also you can send an email to WoTC in the "Help" section.

Let us know what they say.
Cael
10-05-06, 05:40 PM It appears tht is what WoTC intended. As arcane trickster uses the same terminology as EK it appears WoTC did not want spontaneous casters taking either of these classes.

Personally, I would houserule otherwise for spontaneous casters but would not allow the extra spells known for wizards.
I would be very careful with that. The Mystic Theurge also use the same wording. However, in the description for the class, it very obviously meant for Sorcerers to be included in that. In fact, it heavily favoured Sorcerers over the Wizard in getting that dual class. Perhaps that is because Sorcerers are born, not made, but that is just my conjecture.
Templario
10-05-06, 06:00 PM On topic Q.: If you have no deity and take War domain which Martial weapon do you get?

anyone you choose! ;)
Reversefigure4
10-05-06, 06:45 PM First Question: The PHB states that Clerics use their diety assigned weapon as a point of pride. How strict of a requirement is this? Obviously its not the only weapon they're allowed to use as even the basic build examples in the PHB give a Cleric a crossbow in with their starting equipment. Is it a point of pride for Clerics of the given faith in general, or for each cleric? Can a player have an eccentric Heironeous Cleric who uses a greatsword and never even touches a longsword? Is this a violation of ethos, or just an oddity?

It's not a requirement at all. I doubt it would even be seen as an oddity if the cleric doesn't use such a weapon. Even a hard-core martial cleric would switch to a crossbow when he's at range. Keep in mind that many Clerics won't even be proficient in their god's favoured weapon (scythe, greatsword, longsword, all come to mind).

It's a point of pride for -some- clerics. Others probably won't care.
Tony Vargas
10-05-06, 07:24 PM On topic Q.: If you have no deity and take War domain which Martial weapon do you get?I'd say go with the alignment based weapons under Spiritual Weapon. IIRC, that's:

Lawful: Longsword
Good: Warhammer
Chaotic: Battleaxe
Evil: Flail.

If you're an extreme alignment, pick one of the two.
Votan
10-05-06, 08:32 PM I'd say go with the alignment based weapons under Spiritual Weapon. IIRC, that's:

Lawful: Longsword
Good: Warhammer
Chaotic: Battleaxe
Evil: Flail.

If you're an extreme alignment, pick one of the two.

What if you are true neutral?
Templario
10-06-06, 07:19 AM What if you are true neutral?

Probably the same like converting in Cure or Inflict; you choose one one the spiritual and stays with it forever :P
Reversefigure4
10-06-06, 07:36 AM What if you are true neutral?

I have no actual source of this, just a vague recollection of hearing it somewhere, but I believe it's a quarterstaff. That would make sense, anyway, it's the weapon of choice for many of the core neutral deities.
SeattleLightning
10-06-06, 09:37 AM As it was suggested, I contacted Wizards of the Coast on these questions. Here was my email to them.

As DM for my campaign, a few players have brought some knots to my attention that I am unable to resolve. I would appreciate any help that you can provide me.

The first question is about cleric favored weapons. To what extent is a cleric required to use his deity's favored weapon? Is a Cleric of Heironeous that exclusively uses a bastard sword in violation of ethos, or is he simply an eccentric cleric?

Related to this, if a cleric chooses not to have a specific deity but selects the war domain, which weapon, if any, does he get the free weapon focus feat in? If its a weapon of his choice, if the choice is an exotic weapon, does he also recieve a free exotic weapon proficiency in lieu of the possible free martial weapon proficiency?

The second question has to do with Eldritch Knights, but could be extrapolated to PrCs in general. If a Fighter1/Wizard5/Eldritch Knight gains a level in EK, does he gain the two free spells for his spell book that a wizard normally gains with each level?

What about a sorceror? Would a Fighter1/Sorceror6/Eldritch Knight that gains a level in EK also gain the appropriate number of selectable spells that a sorceror would normally gain? If not, wouldn't a Fighter1/Sorceror6/Eldritch Knight100 be restricted to 3rd level or lower spells since he wouldn't get any new spells at all to add to his repertoire?

Regardless of your answer, can your answer be assumed to apply also to other PrCs that add to caster levels?

Thank you for your time.

And their response...

Hey there. A cleric is not required at all to use his deity's favored weapon. That Cleric of Heironeous could use a bastard sword with no problem. If a cleric does not follow a deity and chooses to take the war domain, it would be up to you as DM to determine if you would allow them the weapon focus feat, and what weapon it would apply to.

The Eldritch Knight in your second question gains spells known and spells per day as if he had also gained a level in his wizard levels. So he would still gain those 2 spells to put in his spellbook when he gains an EK level. The sorcerer would also learn a new spell if gaining that level in sorcerer would normally allow him access to another spell.

I hope that clears things up. Have fun and good gaming!

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Stormbrand
10-06-06, 10:22 AM What if you are true neutral?

Then you must have a true neutral diety, and thus will have a favoured weapon.

As I remember (3.0 at least), clerics could not be TN unless their diety was TN. If you have no diety I would insist you need an alignment - you cannot power spells with your beliefs unless you believe in something.

Of course, I don't allow TN characters full stop, but that is another matter.
Eragon_seer
10-06-06, 09:25 PM actualy I would think of nuetrality as an ideal in its own, the middle road. The road of pure balance, the belief that good and evil must exist together for the world to live on.
IbanezNinja
10-06-06, 09:44 PM As I remember (3.0 at least), clerics could not be TN unless their deity was TN. If you have no diety I would insist you need an alignment - you cannot power spells with your beliefs unless you believe in something.

I don't know how they do things in 3.0, but in 3.5 you are allowed to have a philosophy instead of a god, and there is nothing preventing you from being TN in 3.5.
Mitchell
10-06-06, 10:39 PM From the SRD:
CLERIC
Alignment: A cleric’s alignment must be within one step of his deity’s (that is, it may be one step away on either the lawful–chaotic axis or the good–evil axis, but not both). A cleric may not be neutral unless his deity’s alignment is also neutral.
Problem is, they don't mention clerics without dieties, which I know is an option.
I would rule that only a cleric with a TN diety could be TN. Any other cleric must have something besides N. G, E, C, or L wouldn't matter, but they couldn't be TN.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SeattleLightning 10-05-06, 12:07 PM	Hello all, I'm new to the message boards but am a long time DM. I have two questions about the 3.5 rules and would appreciate some input. Currently my campaign only allows the core rule books. First Question: The PHB states that Clerics use their diety assigned weapon as a point of pride. How strict of a requirement is this? Obviously its not the only weapon they're allowed to use as even the basic build examples in the PHB give a Cleric a crossbow in with their starting equipment. Is it a point of pride for Clerics of the given faith in general, or for each cleric? Can a player have an eccentric Heironeous Cleric who uses a greatsword and never even touches a longsword? Is this a violation of ethos, or just an oddity? Second Question: I have a player who has a Wizard/Fighter turned Eldritch Knight. Upon gaining levels as an EK, I informed the player that although they would continue to gain their wizard spell progression as outlined in the EK description, that they would not gain the 2 free spells per level for their spell books since this is a wizard class feature. They disagreed with my interpretation. Which one of us is more likely in line with the intention of the rules?
SeattleLightning 10-05-06, 01:34 PM	One other thing... what specific weapon (diety assigned or whatever its called) does a Cleric use if he doesn't have a designated god?
2nd Ed Paladin 10-05-06, 02:13 PM	1. Cleric's weapons: The clerics do not have to use their diety's favoured weapon although they generally do. A cleric can normally use any simple weapon. If a cleric doesn't have a god then there is no favoured wepaon and they can use any of the simple wepaons. 2. Extra spells SRD:Spells per Day: From 2nd level on, when a new eldritch knight level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of eldritch knight to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. Emphasis mine: Your interpretation appears to be correct. They can still add spells from other spellbooks or scrolls though.
SeattleLightning 10-05-06, 02:35 PM	And to follow this chain of logic I assume that any cleric can use a martial or exotic weapon assuming that he either has the appropriate martial or exotic weapon feat, or is willing to suffer the -4 penalty for not being proficient in the given weapon?
2nd Ed Paladin 10-05-06, 02:44 PM	That would be correct.
Templario 10-05-06, 02:52 PM	No, only the War domain gives proficiency. If he wants to use a marital weapon without War domain, he has to get a feat or a level in any class that gives the proficiency
JulesCARV 10-05-06, 03:02 PM	Right. That's what SeattleLightning said.
oracle71 10-05-06, 03:25 PM	Second Question: I have a player who has a Wizard/Fighter turned Eldritch Knight. Upon gaining levels as an EK, I informed the player that although they would continue to gain their wizard spell progression as outlined in the EK description, that they would not gain the 2 free spells per level for their spell books since this is a wizard class feature. They disagreed with my interpretation. Which one of us is more likely in line with the intention of the rules? By this logic, a fighter1/sorceror6/eldritch knight100 will never have access to any spell over 3rd level, and he would only know one spell of 3rd level. I think the intent of "gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before" was to allow the caster to acquire new spells as they did in their original class.
Elemental_Master 10-05-06, 03:37 PM	On topic Q.: If you have no deity and take War domain which Martial weapon do you get?
2nd Ed Paladin 10-05-06, 04:05 PM	By this logic, a fighter1/sorceror6/eldritch knight100 will never have access to any spell over 3rd level, and he would only know one spell of 3rd level. I think the intent of "gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before" was to allow the caster to acquire new spells as they did in their original class. Although it is idiotic, that is correct. If you look at the Loremaster description it specifically says "and spells known" which seems to indicate the difference is intentional as both are in the same book. SRD: Loremaster: Spells per Day/Spells Known: When a new loremaster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of loremaster to the level of some other spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly. The Archmage says the same thing: SRD Archmage: Spells per Day/Spells Known: When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level. It appears tht is what WoTC intended. As arcane trickster uses the same terminology as EK it appears WoTC did not want spontaneous casters taking either of these classes. Personally, I would houserule otherwise for spontaneous casters but would not allow the extra spells known for wizards.
SeattleLightning 10-05-06, 04:21 PM	I never considered the connotations of a Sorceror not getting new spells. Is there a "higher power" we can send this up to? I mean, can we get the writers (admin?) to chime in with an "official" response? Again, I'm a longtime DM/player, but have only recently discovered the forums for this.
SeattleLightning 10-05-06, 04:22 PM	Also, what is WoTC?
SeattleLightning 10-05-06, 04:25 PM	On topic Q.: If you have no deity and take War domain which Martial weapon do you get? Another unanswered question. Based on the answers given in this thread, as DM, I would personally rule that it would be in any one martial weapon of your choice.
2nd Ed Paladin 10-05-06, 04:55 PM	Also, what is WoTC? Wizards of the Coast - the developers of DnD 3.5. There is a FaQ and rules errata you can check (see the Rules of the Game section of the boards). Also you can send an email to WoTC in the "Help" section. Let us know what they say.
Cael 10-05-06, 05:40 PM	It appears tht is what WoTC intended. As arcane trickster uses the same terminology as EK it appears WoTC did not want spontaneous casters taking either of these classes. Personally, I would houserule otherwise for spontaneous casters but would not allow the extra spells known for wizards. I would be very careful with that. The Mystic Theurge also use the same wording. However, in the description for the class, it very obviously meant for Sorcerers to be included in that. In fact, it heavily favoured Sorcerers over the Wizard in getting that dual class. Perhaps that is because Sorcerers are born, not made, but that is just my conjecture.
Templario 10-05-06, 06:00 PM	On topic Q.: If you have no deity and take War domain which Martial weapon do you get? anyone you choose! ;)
Reversefigure4 10-05-06, 06:45 PM	First Question: The PHB states that Clerics use their diety assigned weapon as a point of pride. How strict of a requirement is this? Obviously its not the only weapon they're allowed to use as even the basic build examples in the PHB give a Cleric a crossbow in with their starting equipment. Is it a point of pride for Clerics of the given faith in general, or for each cleric? Can a player have an eccentric Heironeous Cleric who uses a greatsword and never even touches a longsword? Is this a violation of ethos, or just an oddity? It's not a requirement at all. I doubt it would even be seen as an oddity if the cleric doesn't use such a weapon. Even a hard-core martial cleric would switch to a crossbow when he's at range. Keep in mind that many Clerics won't even be proficient in their god's favoured weapon (scythe, greatsword, longsword, all come to mind). It's a point of pride for -some- clerics. Others probably won't care.
Tony Vargas 10-05-06, 07:24 PM	On topic Q.: If you have no deity and take War domain which Martial weapon do you get?I'd say go with the alignment based weapons under Spiritual Weapon. IIRC, that's: Lawful: Longsword Good: Warhammer Chaotic: Battleaxe Evil: Flail. If you're an extreme alignment, pick one of the two.
Votan 10-05-06, 08:32 PM	I'd say go with the alignment based weapons under Spiritual Weapon. IIRC, that's: Lawful: Longsword Good: Warhammer Chaotic: Battleaxe Evil: Flail. If you're an extreme alignment, pick one of the two. What if you are true neutral?
Templario 10-06-06, 07:19 AM	What if you are true neutral? Probably the same like converting in Cure or Inflict; you choose one one the spiritual and stays with it forever :P
Reversefigure4 10-06-06, 07:36 AM	What if you are true neutral? I have no actual source of this, just a vague recollection of hearing it somewhere, but I believe it's a quarterstaff. That would make sense, anyway, it's the weapon of choice for many of the core neutral deities.
SeattleLightning 10-06-06, 09:37 AM	As it was suggested, I contacted Wizards of the Coast on these questions. Here was my email to them. As DM for my campaign, a few players have brought some knots to my attention that I am unable to resolve. I would appreciate any help that you can provide me. The first question is about cleric favored weapons. To what extent is a cleric required to use his deity's favored weapon? Is a Cleric of Heironeous that exclusively uses a bastard sword in violation of ethos, or is he simply an eccentric cleric? Related to this, if a cleric chooses not to have a specific deity but selects the war domain, which weapon, if any, does he get the free weapon focus feat in? If its a weapon of his choice, if the choice is an exotic weapon, does he also recieve a free exotic weapon proficiency in lieu of the possible free martial weapon proficiency? The second question has to do with Eldritch Knights, but could be extrapolated to PrCs in general. If a Fighter1/Wizard5/Eldritch Knight gains a level in EK, does he gain the two free spells for his spell book that a wizard normally gains with each level? What about a sorceror? Would a Fighter1/Sorceror6/Eldritch Knight that gains a level in EK also gain the appropriate number of selectable spells that a sorceror would normally gain? If not, wouldn't a Fighter1/Sorceror6/Eldritch Knight100 be restricted to 3rd level or lower spells since he wouldn't get any new spells at all to add to his repertoire? Regardless of your answer, can your answer be assumed to apply also to other PrCs that add to caster levels? Thank you for your time. And their response... Hey there. A cleric is not required at all to use his deity's favored weapon. That Cleric of Heironeous could use a bastard sword with no problem. If a cleric does not follow a deity and chooses to take the war domain, it would be up to you as DM to determine if you would allow them the weapon focus feat, and what weapon it would apply to. The Eldritch Knight in your second question gains spells known and spells per day as if he had also gained a level in his wizard levels. So he would still gain those 2 spells to put in his spellbook when he gains an EK level. The sorcerer would also learn a new spell if gaining that level in sorcerer would normally allow him access to another spell. I hope that clears things up. Have fun and good gaming! We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire. To login to your account, or update your question please click here. Trevor Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Friday 7am-6pm PST / 10am-9pm EST
Stormbrand 10-06-06, 10:22 AM	What if you are true neutral? Then you must have a true neutral diety, and thus will have a favoured weapon. As I remember (3.0 at least), clerics could not be TN unless their diety was TN. If you have no diety I would insist you need an alignment - you cannot power spells with your beliefs unless you believe in something. Of course, I don't allow TN characters full stop, but that is another matter.
Eragon_seer 10-06-06, 09:25 PM	actualy I would think of nuetrality as an ideal in its own, the middle road. The road of pure balance, the belief that good and evil must exist together for the world to live on.
IbanezNinja 10-06-06, 09:44 PM	As I remember (3.0 at least), clerics could not be TN unless their deity was TN. If you have no diety I would insist you need an alignment - you cannot power spells with your beliefs unless you believe in something. I don't know how they do things in 3.0, but in 3.5 you are allowed to have a philosophy instead of a god, and there is nothing preventing you from being TN in 3.5.
Mitchell 10-06-06, 10:39 PM	From the SRD: CLERIC Alignment: A cleric’s alignment must be within one step of his deity’s (that is, it may be one step away on either the lawful–chaotic axis or the good–evil axis, but not both). A cleric may not be neutral unless his deity’s alignment is also neutral. Problem is, they don't mention clerics without dieties, which I know is an option. I would rule that only a cleric with a TN diety could be TN. Any other cleric must have something besides N. G, E, C, or L wouldn't matter, but they couldn't be TN.