Post/Author/DateTime	Post
catzo 11-04-05, 10:47 AM	I know, I already looked at the ultimate cleric and the other Clerics in the compendium. But they are a bit "complicated" compared to what I'm looking for. If I want a cleric that can't turn or rebuke undeads, but still want the class, pretty much as it is. I think he should get something else instead. As Turning is based on charisma a cleric without turning would not have much use for Cha, leading to much clerics being quite low on cha. So I think it's in order to give him somthing that is based on cha. The first idea that pops to my mind is to give the cleric "Divine grace" Like the paladin. Giving a bonus to saves equal to the cha bonus. I quite liek this as it suits the porpuse I'm looking for. The only problem is that if I wante a paladin without turning, what should I give him as compensation, he already has "Divine grace". I must admit that I don't really care about Paladins so it wouldn't be a problem for me, but still it would need an awnser I think. So, could the divine grace work/blance out, with removing turning from a cleric? And if so, what would you give a paladin as compensation? Ps. There could be many reasons a cleric can't turn or rebuke undeads. He could for instance live in a world where there are no undeads. One coudl argue he wouldn't lose anything and as such shouldn't get any compensation. But what if his a worl-jumper and then comes to a world WITH undeads, now he would be at a dissadvantages compared to other clerics. But thats really not the issue.
adimeadozen 11-04-05, 11:45 AM	There's always this from the SRD and Unearthed Arcana: Cleric Some clerics prefer to be champions of good (or evil), standing at the forefront of the battle against the enemy. Gain: Smite evil, if the cleric would normally channel positive energy, or smite good, if the cleric would normally channel negative energy (as paladin); aura of courage (as paladin). Lose: Turn undead.
Goomba 11-04-05, 12:19 PM	Interesting. Out of all the years I have played I dont I have ever used Turn/Rebuke Undead. To tell you the truth I dont know how it fully works. Does it do damage, or does it just Exorcise the undead creature to hell?
Germytech 11-04-05, 12:33 PM	I've always like the idea of replacing Turn Undead with Smite Evil. I think it's a good trade, as well. The paladin, however, loses next to nothing without turn undead. I think the class would be just fine without it.
Ellone 11-04-05, 12:45 PM	you could give your cleric a free divine feat, these feats allow to use a turn undead attempt to do something else. There's some in complete divine and complete martial.
adimeadozen 11-04-05, 12:53 PM	Interesting. Out of all the years I have played I dont I have ever used Turn/Rebuke Undead. To tell you the truth I dont know how it fully works. Does it do damage, or does it just Exorcise the undead creature to hell? Well, neither, actually, you make a charisma check first, this determines the most powerful undead that turn attempt can affect (There's a table in the PHB outlining this). Then you roll 2d6+Cleric Level+CHA modifier to determine how many hit dice worth of undead you can turn. You affect the closest undead first, and they must be within 60', if they're turned they have to flee as fast as they can for 1 full minute, if they can't they have to cower unless you approach(meaning you can stand near them) them as they cower (within 10' I think) then they overcome it and can act normal. If your Cleric level is at least twice the hit dice of undead you would normally turn, they are instead destroyed outright. Edit: Found the table, Table 8-9: Turning Undead (PHB 159)
Cadfan 11-04-05, 12:54 PM	Or he could just TAKE a divine feat. Convert a turn attempt into something else. I'd balk at giving him something for free, but the divine feats do seem to be a perfect solution, and there's several of them, so he can pick which one he likes the most. I'm partial towards the one that maximizes your next healing spell.
catzo 11-04-05, 12:56 PM	There's always this from the SRD and Unearthed Arcana: Cleric Some clerics prefer to be champions of good (or evil), standing at the forefront of the battle against the enemy. Gain: Smite evil, if the cleric would normally channel positive energy, or smite good, if the cleric would normally channel negative energy (as paladin); aura of courage (as paladin). Lose: Turn undead. Oh, I don't have all those books, but I guess I should check out SRD, or maybe borrow it from a friend. Thank you. you could give your cleric a free divine feat, these feats allow to use a turn undead attempt to do something else. There's some in complete divine and complete martial. again.. I really should get some books from my friends, thanks to you also.
adimeadozen 11-04-05, 12:56 PM	Or he could just TAKE a divine feat. Convert a turn attempt into something else. I'd balk at giving him something for free, but the divine feats do seem to be a perfect solution, and there's several of them, so he can pick which one he likes the most. I'm partial towards the one that maximizes your next healing spell. This is true, free feat is probably a bad idea, but Divine feats are fantastic, especially if you don't use turning.
adimeadozen 11-04-05, 12:58 PM	Oh, I don't have all those books, but I guess I should check out SRD, or maybe borrow it from a friend. Thank you. I'll just post a hundred times in this thread- SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm) Edit: Oh, no problem, you're welcome, nice to come across something I actually know enough about.
Gnarl 11-04-05, 03:08 PM	So, could the divine grace work/blance out, with removing turning from a cleric? Divine Grace: bonus to saving throws that always applies regardless of source. Still nice if you multi class. Turn Undead: get rid of undeads with relatively low hit die, useless if you multi class (of course with Divine Feats...). In my opinion, Divine Grace is better than Turn Undead. Actualy, I think it's a Paladin's best ability.
catzo 11-04-05, 03:11 PM	Divine Grace: bonus to saving throws that always applies regardless of source. Still nice if you multi class. Turn Undead: get rid of undeads with relatively low hit die, useless if you multi class (of course with Divine Feats...). In my opinion, Divine Grace is better than Turn Undead. Actualy, I think it's a Paladin's best ability. Ok so It's too good? Well as has been mentined smite evil and Aura of courage is a better (more fair) change. So I'm going to stick with it instead of Divine Grace.
Shadowfax7 11-04-05, 09:03 PM	Cleric Some clerics prefer to be champions of good (or evil), standing at the forefront of the battle against the enemy. Gain: Smite evil, if the cleric would normally channel positive energy, or smite good, if the cleric would normally channel negative energy (as paladin); aura of courage (as paladin). Lose: Turn undead. IMO this is the best trade-off for a Turn-less Cleric. As far as Turn-less Paladins, IMC the Paladins can't Turn Undead, but they gain Improved Lay on Hands at 20th level which heals all HP 1/day, either to themselves or one other. It can't be divided up as Lay on Hands can and can't be used against undead. This ability is similar to Improved Lay on Hands from the EQ RPG.
Quirriff 11-04-05, 09:09 PM	Dwarven Cleric substitution levels, have Smite Giants, instead of Turn undead, but one with Earth domain can still turn air creatures.
catzo 11-04-05, 09:39 PM	A bit offtopic as I was talking about a cleric without turning. But couldn't you have a "turn demons" or "turn devils" without it being too unbalanced? Or should it in fact be "turn daemonics", and then let include both demons and devils?
Shadowfax7 11-04-05, 10:05 PM	couldn't you have a "turn demons" or "turn devils" without it being too unbalanced? This wouldn't be unbalanced since Turning depends on HD and Demons & Devils have higher HD on average than undead.
Phantom Lord 11-05-05, 12:33 AM	Okaynowa and I corroborated awhile ago on a re-write of the cleric (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=422415). We decided on a few things that could be made available to the cleric instead of Turn Undead. Here's the list, if you don't care to visit the link above: Channeling (Su): Any cleric, regardless of alignment, has the power to channel various divine powers through his holy symbol as a standard action. He can channel a number of times equal to his WIS bonus + 3 each day. Channeling is notaffected by metamagic, except as noted in Chapter 6: Feats. He gains a new channeling power at first level, and every 4th level after that (4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, 20th.) The seven powers are as follows: Aura This channeling subjects a number of the caster's intended targets (within 60', with clear Line of Sight) to the protection from chaos/evil/good/law spell for 1 minute/level. This affects a number of creatures equal to the caster’s cleric level. Castigate Works just as turn undead except it can be made specific toward extraplanar subtypes (air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, native, or water,) which is chosen when this power is taken. This power can be taken multiple times, each time it applies to a different subtype of extraplanar creature. Counterspell This produces a 120' wide (60' radius) sphere centered on the caster in which the spell being countered cannot function (like an antimagic field vs. a singe specific spell.) This does not totally negate area-effect spells, because they can still exist around the sphere (and may outlast it, too.) The cleric must succeed at an opposed caster check (1d20 + cleric level + WIS bonus) against the caster of the countered spell in order for it to be successful. The sphere lasts for one round per caster level. Heal This heals 1d8+1 points of damage (as the spell Cure Light Wounds) on targets within a 60' radius. This affects a number of creatures equal to the caster’s cleric level. Several attempts may be expended at once, but it must be declared in advance. Damage healed per attempt is rolled for each attempt. This power can be taken multiple times, and each time it increases the amount of damage healed by 1d8+1 points per target. Infuse Grants a 1d4 bonus to a single ability to targets within 60' of the cleric. The ability enhanced is chosen at the time of the channeling, and is a divine bonus. This lasts for a number of rounds equal to 10+Wis modifier , and affects one creature per caster level. Manifest Summons an elemental with a number of HD equal to ½ the caster’s cleric level (minimum 1). The manifested elemental has a telepathic link with the caster, and obeys all commands without qualm. This lasts for a number of rounds equal to 2d10+Cha bonus. Turn or Rebuke Undead Clerics, regardless of alignment, can have the power to affect undead creatures by channeling the power of his faith through his holy (or unholy) symbol (see Turn or Rebuke Undead). A good cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships a good deity) can turn or destroy undead creatures. An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships an evil deity) instead rebukes or commands such creatures. A neutral cleric of a neutral deity must choose whether his turning ability functions as that of a good cleric or an evil cleric. A cleric may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. A cleric with 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion) gets a +2 bonus on turning checks against undead. Of course, you can get the whole class (the latest version, too!) by going to http://www.angelfire.com/dragon2/kuldraenis/index.html
catzo 11-05-05, 08:54 AM	Phantom Lord Hey, I really like this Cleric :D But why isn't it in the "compendium"? The only thing that bothers me is that it seems a bit too powerfull, I know your using Mana instead of Spells per day, but that shouldn't really matter. Those channelings seems way better than Turning. Expecially because the number of times per day is based on Wis and not Cha. You will already have a high Wis for the spells. And theres a thing I'm unsure about. Under Turning it states that you can turn a number of times based on Cha, but at the top of channeling it was based on Wis?
Cadfan 11-05-05, 11:08 AM	In general, there's a balance issue when you replace a highly specialized ability that's only useful in a few situations with a more general ability that's useful frequently. Players always want to do this, obviously. So you see demands for no familiar arcane casters, and no turning paladins and clerics. That's why I'd recommend sticking with the divine feats. They're appropriately balanced for replacing an ability which isn't frequently useful (turning undead) with an ability that's useful every game session (increasing saves, powering up your weapon, increasing your healing, etc).
Phantom Lord 11-05-05, 11:21 AM	Catzo Good point about making the number of Channelings based on CHA. It was really just an oversight on my part. Thanks!
Votan 11-05-05, 11:45 AM	So, could the divine grace work/blance out, with removing turning from a cleric? And if so, what would you give a paladin as compensation? It depends. Let us consider a few things: 1) Do you have divine feats? If so, a Paladin losing access to Divine Might (for example) is actually a big deal. With Divine Might a Paladin with a 30 CHA (possible at high level) could get +10 to saves and 13 times per day add +10 to damage. This is hard to comensate them for even if you consider that it costs them one feat. 2) How hard is it to increase CHA? A general saving throw bonus is way better than the ability to occasionaly defeat an encounter more easily. If the Cleric can have a 10 CHA then get a cloak and a book they could end up with a +5 to theri already good saves with limited investment. Bad! 3) How essential is the MAD that you want to continue? The Paladin will increase CHA even without turn undead (although see the divine might nerf above). The cleric will rarely consider points in CHA as a good investment as they really don't affect turn undead that much. Most divine metamagic builds, whichj desperately need to maximize turn undead times epr day, do it by extra turning rather than increasing CHA. Reasonable compensation: Paladin -- just give them the option to purchase Divine Might as a feat. It's what they will use it for anyway. Well, that and maybe sacred healing . . . Cleric -- smite evil 1/day puts some weight in CHA without adding lots of compensation. It's also foe specific (so you aren't replacing a specific ability with a general one) and scales with level.
FritzBrandstifter 12-03-05, 12:17 AM	Off the top of my head, wouldn't Favored Soul be an option?
Nathan the <adjective> 12-03-05, 11:27 AM	Instead the turning he could have a good/evil version of lay on hands with some augments. It would be his level x 1.5 cha mod that let him deal positive or negative damage. This could be probably be unbalanced but it make you cleric a better healer or inflicter depending on your path. Edit You could choose a path for your cleric too. Caster would get the Lay on Hand thing and a battle cleric would get the smite evil.