Cleric/Paladin Aura of <Alignment> [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cleric/Paladin Aura of <Alignment> [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Euthyphro
06-23-06, 05:03 PM I'm curious what others think the point is of a Cleric/Paladin emitting an aura of their alignment.

My DM and I have been trying to figure out what the point is of an Cleric or a Paladin radiating their own alignment more powerfully.

Per the Detect Evil spell information, a regular entity HD 1-10 radiates a "faint" aura and a Paladin/Cleric of level 1 radiates a faint aura. The Cleric/Paladin's power level increases until it maxes at "overwhelming" at 11 class levels.

My confusion is, honestly, whats the point?

If everything detects as its alignment, whats the point of making a Cleric or a Paladin's alignment detect at a stronger rate? I'm just kind of incredulous about the idea that some peasant farmer radiates even a faint aura of "evil" if he happens to be a self-centered individuals. It seems like if you're going to differentiate the aura that an entity radiates it should exclude low-level (like <5HD) entities unless they have a specific reason to radiate an alignment (outsider, undead, etc.)

I may even houserule this for my own campaign because I can't justfy the notion that you can just walk around with a detect bad guy flashlight and turn it on like that. It just seems so silly.

What do others think?
coppro
06-23-06, 06:15 PM That's because you clearly are thinking that only bad guys are evil. Anyone can be evil. It just so happens that the farmer down the road might be of evil disposition. Evil =/= Bad Guy. You can even have evil PCs. (Although a paladin might have trouble with that)
AvaronGansdell
06-23-06, 06:52 PM I think that only clerics/paladins should raidiate there alighnment..or mabye more properly anyone who is overwhelming should cause people around them who dont cast a spell to feel as if that person is of X type of person.

standing next to a 12th level blackguard you know he's evil evne if you dont know why you know.
StevenO
06-23-06, 06:53 PM The purpose of the Aura is to help distiguish the good/evil from the REALLY good/evil.

Generally, characters with a faint aura can be considered as leaning toward that alignment but with a little help can change their outlook; this is a BIG reason a Paladin should never get away with simply using detect evil and smiting everyone who even appears as faintly evil. In the case of Paladins and Clerics, their faith should be strong enough to deter any easy alignment changes (which would also hurt their class severely) and thus they radiate that belief in the form of a stronger aura.

I haven't checked the progress levels for determining aura power recently but any creature/character that uses divine energy should have an aura stronger than the minimum.
Dolo
06-23-06, 07:09 PM I know that unless the person is overwhelmingly EVIL, you have to have a reason or know something to be using your detect evil/good. This is how my DM rules it, and our Paladin pretty much runs like that, unless you do something to make him suspicious, he pretty much only uses it to confirm the guy attacking him is evil and not just some schmoe hired by said Bad Guy.
Rulebook
06-23-06, 07:28 PM see, the fun really begins when your big bad guy is Lawful Good, and has deemed your actions to be unnaceptable (running about slaughtering tribes of Orcs and Goblinoids, blasting holes in ecologies with big spells etc.. general mayhem and whatnot)

mechanically, the point of auras is not only paladins can detect alignments. is it fair that you can detect evil on everything, but you dont show up as even a slight blip on the reverse? it also has to do with being a conduit for holy or profane energy as well i'd assume.
questionc
06-23-06, 09:55 PM You know, it's funny that it never came up, because I've allways used houserules for this since the Detect Evil/Good/Law/Chaos spells are a mix of silly and plot-breaking.

Undead and Outsiders can keep working the way they do.

Clerics of evil deities still generate aura as described in the spell.
Note that the aura detected is based on the alignment of the cleric's deity, not the cleric. For example, a CN cleric of Gruumsh will still set off the 'evil alarm'. Being the representative of a god is a pretty big deal. In exchange for promoting a god's ideals, he agrees to channel his powers through you. In order to manifest higher level powers, you get a little closer to your god as you level up. It makes sense that this registers on the evil radar in a big way.

The creatures is where things have to change. It's so irritating that pretty much any scam, any doppelganger masquerading as the mayor, any quarrel where one party is up to foul play, can be thwarted by a level 1 spell. Bad guys just can't pretend to not be bad in the DnD universe given the rules unless they all dump 8k on a ring.
I like the "I have X-Ray Evil Vision!" feature of the paladin though. They need the power. It's cool to see through doors.
The alignment of a creature, as it flags on Detect Evil/Good/Law/Chaos should trigger based on the alignment of the race. It doesn't matter if you're the nicest goblin in the world... your blood still carries the sins of your fathers, and washing that away would take centuries.
Paladins can't figure out that Farmer O'Malley is the guy responsible for the disappearing children with a standard action. O'Malley is human therefore neutral.
Paladins keep their X-Ray vision inside dungeons (as long as it's an 'evil' dungeon... goblins, gnolls, ogres, whatever).
You don't have to make up some pretense to stop Paladins from using their class ability.
AvaronGansdell
06-23-06, 10:06 PM personaly I belive paladins should be limited to the first round of effect from there detect evil ability so they know someone in that cone is evil but not who.

that or it should be a passive ability that gives them a feeling of wrongness from bad people.

I am in a group that has both a paladin and a Warlock between detect evil and detect magic at will we get tons of free info.
Jhulae
06-24-06, 07:26 AM Because Clerics and Paladins are supposed to be paragons (for lack of a better word) of their dieties, and it's that tie that makes their alignments 'stand out'.

The other classes (including Druids and Rangers who tend to worship nature deities which are usually neutral or at least with nature being neutral) don't have that direct tie which makes their alignments stand out.

It's usually Clerics and Paladins who are fighting the outsiders anyway (or taking the lead in such), so it makes outsiders likely to target them first.
Euthyphro
06-26-06, 10:44 AM I can accept that Clerics and Paladins radate their auras because of their connection to their gods (this makes sense, in isolation), what confuses me is this in relation to everyday individuals radiating their alignments.

Per the rules for detect evil, any non-outsider, non-undead, non-cleric/Paladin will detect as "faint" up to 9HD/Class levels, beyond this the entity moves into stronger auras. What this suggests, to me, is that there are degrees of affiliation/practice with regard to your alignment, that you can essentially be more of less intense a follower of alignment, based on the system outlined in the Detect Evil spell notes.

So if detecting as evil is simply a revealing of your inclinations why are their levels of aura? More simply: What is the strength of your aura measuring if it isn't measuring your evil acts/commitment to evil? Why are you more strongly evil just because you have more HD?

If I'm evil whether I steal vs whether I murder (and I'm the same amount of evil, which must be so if evil is an inborn tendancy of behaviour not a measument of my achievement of evil actions) then there really shouldn't be any variation in strength of aura for non-Cleric/Paladins non-outside non-undead, it should all detect at the same level of simply "evil". The strength of my aura should be based on my affinity for either my diety or my affiliation with a plane that is strongly aligned. Therefore, any entity that doesn't fit into one of the above classes should always detect at feint. Their affiliation with evil never goes beyond their inborn tendencies unless they willfully affiliate themselves with a diety, become tied to a plane or are undead.

So why is there a progression for these beings? Why is an Ancient Red Wyrm more "evil" than Mr. Johnson the farmer who rips off the local merchants? He shouldn't be, evil isn't evil acts, its who you are. Or so I understand.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Euthyphro 06-23-06, 05:03 PM	I'm curious what others think the point is of a Cleric/Paladin emitting an aura of their alignment. My DM and I have been trying to figure out what the point is of an Cleric or a Paladin radiating their own alignment more powerfully. Per the Detect Evil spell information, a regular entity HD 1-10 radiates a "faint" aura and a Paladin/Cleric of level 1 radiates a faint aura. The Cleric/Paladin's power level increases until it maxes at "overwhelming" at 11 class levels. My confusion is, honestly, whats the point? If everything detects as its alignment, whats the point of making a Cleric or a Paladin's alignment detect at a stronger rate? I'm just kind of incredulous about the idea that some peasant farmer radiates even a faint aura of "evil" if he happens to be a self-centered individuals. It seems like if you're going to differentiate the aura that an entity radiates it should exclude low-level (like <5HD) entities unless they have a specific reason to radiate an alignment (outsider, undead, etc.) I may even houserule this for my own campaign because I can't justfy the notion that you can just walk around with a detect bad guy flashlight and turn it on like that. It just seems so silly. What do others think?
coppro 06-23-06, 06:15 PM	That's because you clearly are thinking that only bad guys are evil. Anyone can be evil. It just so happens that the farmer down the road might be of evil disposition. Evil =/= Bad Guy. You can even have evil PCs. (Although a paladin might have trouble with that)
AvaronGansdell 06-23-06, 06:52 PM	I think that only clerics/paladins should raidiate there alighnment..or mabye more properly anyone who is overwhelming should cause people around them who dont cast a spell to feel as if that person is of X type of person. standing next to a 12th level blackguard you know he's evil evne if you dont know why you know.
StevenO 06-23-06, 06:53 PM	The purpose of the Aura is to help distiguish the good/evil from the REALLY good/evil. Generally, characters with a faint aura can be considered as leaning toward that alignment but with a little help can change their outlook; this is a BIG reason a Paladin should never get away with simply using detect evil and smiting everyone who even appears as faintly evil. In the case of Paladins and Clerics, their faith should be strong enough to deter any easy alignment changes (which would also hurt their class severely) and thus they radiate that belief in the form of a stronger aura. I haven't checked the progress levels for determining aura power recently but any creature/character that uses divine energy should have an aura stronger than the minimum.
Dolo 06-23-06, 07:09 PM	I know that unless the person is overwhelmingly EVIL, you have to have a reason or know something to be using your detect evil/good. This is how my DM rules it, and our Paladin pretty much runs like that, unless you do something to make him suspicious, he pretty much only uses it to confirm the guy attacking him is evil and not just some schmoe hired by said Bad Guy.
Rulebook 06-23-06, 07:28 PM	see, the fun really begins when your big bad guy is Lawful Good, and has deemed your actions to be unnaceptable (running about slaughtering tribes of Orcs and Goblinoids, blasting holes in ecologies with big spells etc.. general mayhem and whatnot) mechanically, the point of auras is not only paladins can detect alignments. is it fair that you can detect evil on everything, but you dont show up as even a slight blip on the reverse? it also has to do with being a conduit for holy or profane energy as well i'd assume.
questionc 06-23-06, 09:55 PM	You know, it's funny that it never came up, because I've allways used houserules for this since the Detect Evil/Good/Law/Chaos spells are a mix of silly and plot-breaking. Undead and Outsiders can keep working the way they do. Clerics of evil deities still generate aura as described in the spell. Note that the aura detected is based on the alignment of the cleric's deity, not the cleric. For example, a CN cleric of Gruumsh will still set off the 'evil alarm'. Being the representative of a god is a pretty big deal. In exchange for promoting a god's ideals, he agrees to channel his powers through you. In order to manifest higher level powers, you get a little closer to your god as you level up. It makes sense that this registers on the evil radar in a big way. The creatures is where things have to change. It's so irritating that pretty much any scam, any doppelganger masquerading as the mayor, any quarrel where one party is up to foul play, can be thwarted by a level 1 spell. Bad guys just can't pretend to not be bad in the DnD universe given the rules unless they all dump 8k on a ring. I like the "I have X-Ray Evil Vision!" feature of the paladin though. They need the power. It's cool to see through doors. The alignment of a creature, as it flags on Detect Evil/Good/Law/Chaos should trigger based on the alignment of the race. It doesn't matter if you're the nicest goblin in the world... your blood still carries the sins of your fathers, and washing that away would take centuries. Paladins can't figure out that Farmer O'Malley is the guy responsible for the disappearing children with a standard action. O'Malley is human therefore neutral. Paladins keep their X-Ray vision inside dungeons (as long as it's an 'evil' dungeon... goblins, gnolls, ogres, whatever). You don't have to make up some pretense to stop Paladins from using their class ability.
AvaronGansdell 06-23-06, 10:06 PM	personaly I belive paladins should be limited to the first round of effect from there detect evil ability so they know someone in that cone is evil but not who. that or it should be a passive ability that gives them a feeling of wrongness from bad people. I am in a group that has both a paladin and a Warlock between detect evil and detect magic at will we get tons of free info.
Jhulae 06-24-06, 07:26 AM	Because Clerics and Paladins are supposed to be paragons (for lack of a better word) of their dieties, and it's that tie that makes their alignments 'stand out'. The other classes (including Druids and Rangers who tend to worship nature deities which are usually neutral or at least with nature being neutral) don't have that direct tie which makes their alignments stand out. It's usually Clerics and Paladins who are fighting the outsiders anyway (or taking the lead in such), so it makes outsiders likely to target them first.
Euthyphro 06-26-06, 10:44 AM	I can accept that Clerics and Paladins radate their auras because of their connection to their gods (this makes sense, in isolation), what confuses me is this in relation to everyday individuals radiating their alignments. Per the rules for detect evil, any non-outsider, non-undead, non-cleric/Paladin will detect as "faint" up to 9HD/Class levels, beyond this the entity moves into stronger auras. What this suggests, to me, is that there are degrees of affiliation/practice with regard to your alignment, that you can essentially be more of less intense a follower of alignment, based on the system outlined in the Detect Evil spell notes. So if detecting as evil is simply a revealing of your inclinations why are their levels of aura? More simply: What is the strength of your aura measuring if it isn't measuring your evil acts/commitment to evil? Why are you more strongly evil just because you have more HD? If I'm evil whether I steal vs whether I murder (and I'm the same amount of evil, which must be so if evil is an inborn tendancy of behaviour not a measument of my achievement of evil actions) then there really shouldn't be any variation in strength of aura for non-Cleric/Paladins non-outside non-undead, it should all detect at the same level of simply "evil". The strength of my aura should be based on my affinity for either my diety or my affiliation with a plane that is strongly aligned. Therefore, any entity that doesn't fit into one of the above classes should always detect at feint. Their affiliation with evil never goes beyond their inborn tendencies unless they willfully affiliate themselves with a diety, become tied to a plane or are undead. So why is there a progression for these beings? Why is an Ancient Red Wyrm more "evil" than Mr. Johnson the farmer who rips off the local merchants? He shouldn't be, evil isn't evil acts, its who you are. Or so I understand.