Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KnightRanger 08-17-06, 05:52 PM	Hey Everybody, I'm looking to play a Cleric/Rogue in an upcoming game (10th level) and I was looking at PrC's that would be a good addition to the character. What are your opinions on the Shadowbane Stalker PrC? I've scoured my books and this one SEEMS to be ok at combining the two, but I didn't really notice any others. Feat wise I'm looking at Divine Meta Magic with Quicken and I know I'm taking the Moon Domain (I just like it), but the other one is still in the air. Any suggestions? Let me know when ever anyone gets a chance. Thanks :)
DoomSquirrel718 08-17-06, 05:58 PM	Black Flame Zealot Complete Divine
ninjarabbit 08-17-06, 06:11 PM	rogue1/cloisteredclericx (in Unearthed Arcana) with the able learner feat, ninja1/cloisteredclericx with able learner, or kobold cloistered clericx with kobold and trickery domains
Ariath Ska'Vhor 08-17-06, 06:15 PM	I personally like the look of the Temple Raider of Olidammara (pg. 67 Complete Divine).
IbanezNinja 08-17-06, 06:22 PM	I dunno, I would just go straight cleric. Pick the kobold domain for one of your domains so you can get trapfinding., and use spells to replace skills. Note, you don't have to be a kobold to pick the domain, you can be a cleric of philosophy and simply pick two domain, such as kobold and trickery.
maddogg2216 08-19-06, 12:03 PM	I've thought about doing the same thing. Cause you can get sneak attack with an inflict cause it's still a touch attack.
AkaKageWarrior 08-19-06, 12:33 PM	I think the PrC you found, the Shadowbane Stalker, is great. looks very powerful IMO, and you don't lose too much ineither class. AKW
CaoSlayer 08-19-06, 12:44 PM	Note, you don't have to be a kobold to pick the domain, you can be a cleric of philosophy and simply pick two domain, such as kobold and trickery. Translation: Note, you dont have to be a koold to pick the domain, you can be a munchkin. Really picking another race specially a crappy race as domain it is beyond any justification.
DeVorn 08-19-06, 12:52 PM	Translation: Note, you dont have to be a koold to pick the domain, you can be a munchkin. Really picking another race specially a crappy race as domain it is beyond any justification. Or you can turn it into a really interesting background. Like a Cleric who was actually raised by kobolds, and thinks of himself as a kobold until one day he happens to see his own reflection in a pond. He remains faithful to the kobold way-of-life even to this day! Or maybe an obsessive minister who arrived in kobold homelands to preach to the filthy little rapscallions and try to teach them how to live well, and in doing so picked up many aspects of the kobold's faith. Really, there are a lot of really funny ways to roll with kobold as a domain. Instead of shouting "MUNCHKIN!" and running away, you might try to be creative and make something fun out of it.
El_Machinae 08-19-06, 01:22 PM	I have yet to play a Shadowbane Stalker, but I keep thinking they're a good idea. Cloistered Cleric seems to work best, to get the required skills and to get the excellent spell list. I don't know whether to recommend heavy-rogue or heavy-cleric going in though.
CaoSlayer 08-19-06, 02:41 PM	Or you can turn it into a really interesting background. Like a Cleric who was actually raised by kobolds, and thinks of himself as a kobold until one day he happens to see his own reflection in a pond. He remains faithful to the kobold way-of-life even to this day! Or maybe an obsessive minister who arrived in kobold homelands to preach to the filthy little rapscallions and try to teach them how to live well, and in doing so picked up many aspects of the kobold's faith. Really, there are a lot of really funny ways to roll with kobold as a domain. Instead of shouting "MUNCHKIN!" and running away, you might try to be creative and make something fun out of it. It is lame because it is a trying to find a lame justification for getting trap finding, seriously, would someone create such background if the domain dont granted trap finding or other kind of overpowered domain like 3.0 celerity? The example you gave it is a good example of a forced stupid background, it similar to Carrot from the ankh-morpork guard.
IbanezNinja 08-19-06, 02:51 PM	It is lame because it is a trying to find a lame justification for getting trap finding, seriously, would someone create such background if the domain dont granted trap finding or other kind of overpowered domain like 3.0 celerity? The example you gave it is a good example of a forced stupid background, it similar to Carrot from the ankh-morpork guard. Can you explain to me why the background is so forced and stupid? And also, why is it that I am a "munchkin" when I follow the rules of the PHB that state a cleric can pick two domains? [EDIT] Also, I see that you've written a bard handbook, which is full of tips for optimizing bards. Now, can you justify the hypocracy behind why I am a munchkin for giving a cleric tip, but you aren't for writing a bard's handbook?
CaoSlayer 08-19-06, 03:07 PM	Can you explain to me why the background is so forced and stupid? And also, why is it that I am a "munchkin" when I follow the rules of the PHB that state a cleric can pick two domains? [EDIT] Also, I see that you've written a bard handbook, which is full of tips for optimizing bards. Now, can you explain the hypocracy behind why I am a munchikin for giving a cleric tip, but you aren't for writing a bard's handbook? In first place you are wrong, I havent wrote the bard handbook, guide that I dont like because all goes about going level dipping, my guide if you check it is all about playing an efective bard with little or no multiclassing, no third party material and the thing it is that I give advices no matter the kind of bard you are and try to give ideas to play ever a bard half-orc. I use to despise character optimization because ignore totally roleplay and the handbook makes seem that a bard 20 it is a bad build when it is actually very viable and powerful option if played well. If you play just with RAW and ignore all the roleplaying implications you kill the role part from the game and just turn it into a miniature game. You are talking about a human worshiping kobolt, that it is small, weak, cowards creatures, they are worst that the worst of humans and it is alike to worshiping pigs and the only reason it is because their domain grant trap finding. Besides that most races lacks kobolt language, would be funny to be raised by kobolts and dont be able to speak a word in their language. Your advice it is similar to ask to get the multiheaded template so you can cast two spells at once.
Dheran 08-19-06, 03:22 PM	The Kobold and Trickery domains don't make any sense for a Cleric/Rogue character. The Rogue already has the capabilities that these domains grant. So please, folks, pay attention! Useful domains for a Cleric/Rogue character include the following: Celerity: grants +10 to speed Darkness: grants Blind-Fight Elf: grants Point Blank Shot, and True Strike spell Fate: grants Uncanny Dodge (which means you get Improved Uncanny Dodge at Rogue level 4), and True Strike spell Planning: grants Extend Spell Time: grants Improved Initiative, and True Strike spell Travel: grants Freedom of Movement, and Longstrider spell Undeath: grants Extra Turning
DeVorn 08-19-06, 03:45 PM	CaoSlayer: On second thought, this makes perfect sense. From this day hence, I shall endeavour to be more of a role-player and less of a roll-player (man am I witty or what?). Here are the broad sweeping changes I recommend we all immediately incorporate into our role-playing campaigns. I hope we can all get on this bandwagon: No more PrCs or switching classes. Multiclassing is the sign of the Devil. Only horrible, disfigured trolls use more than one class in their builds. All feats, skills, special abilities, cleric domains, and selectable spells must be chosen at the beginning of the day by random dice rolls. Anything else is MIN-MAXING, and therefore an ABOMINATION in the eyes of the Lord. All skill and combat dice-rolls will be replaced by people describing how their character hits you, or dodges that fireball, or leaps over that chasm. The best description wins the roll (extra adjectives are double plus good!). Player-Characters are required to submit five-hundred page background reports of themselves, their parents, their parents' parents, and their parents' parents' parents. Detailed lineage reports explaining your family history back until the dawn of time are an added plus. Blessed be our DM who art in Heaven, amen.* * Please take this in the right light. Role-playing is fine, but let's keep in mind some of us are interested in the mechanics too, and that this doesn't make us bad people. Dheran: As far as I'm aware, the point was that a Cleric with the Kobold and Trickery domains doesn't really need any levels in Rogue, so it accomplishes it without giving up any caster levels.
Dheran 08-19-06, 04:01 PM	Dheran: As far as I'm aware, the point was that a Cleric with the Kobold and Trickery domains doesn't really need any levels in Rogue, so it accomplishes it without giving up any caster levels. But it doesn't meet the prerequisites for the Shadowbane Stalker, which was what the OP was interested in (plus options for the character's other Clerical domain). KnightRanger asked for suggestions on how to play a Cleric/Rogue. I was just trying to point out that this discussion was off-topic relative to the OP's query, and therefore wasn't helpful to KnightRanger.
IbanezNinja 08-19-06, 04:03 PM	In first place you are wrong, I havent wrote the bard handbook, guide that I dont like because all goes about going level dipping, my guide if you check it is all about playing an efective bard with little or no multiclassing, no third party material and the thing it is that I give advices no matter the kind of bard you are and try to give ideas to play ever a bard half-orc. I use to despise character optimization because ignore totally roleplay and the handbook makes seem that a bard 20 it is a bad build when it is actually very viable and powerful option if played well. I said a bard handbook, not the bard handbook. Secondly, what does it matter? You are still giving out optimization tips for bards. You can't sit there and say "Well, my optimizing is different, cause it's core and uses a majority of bard levels." You are still min-maxing, and under your definition should qualify as a "munchkin", and under my definition qualify as a hypocrit. If you play just with RAW and ignore all the roleplaying implications you kill the role part from the game and just turn it into a miniature game. "THERE IS ONLY ONE RIGHT WAY TO PLAY DND." Is that what you are trying to say here? You are talking about a human worshiping kobolt, that it is small, weak, cowards creatures, they are worst that the worst of humans and it is alike to worshiping pigs and the only reason it is because their domain grant trap finding. You, my friend, are a racist. :D Seriously, kobolds are cool. They aren't inheriently "worst thant he worst of humans" and it is nothing at all alike to worshipping pigs. It's more like a human looking up to an elf because of how noble they are. Instead it's a aspiring ninja type guy looking up to kobolds because of how sneaky and crafty they are. Also, you aren't worshipping Kobolds. It's just you relate somewhat with the kobold race, and your philosophy takes that in and gives you power. It's no different than some warblade using a Tiger Claw manuever. Is he a bad person because he aspires to fight with the ferocity of a tiger? Besides that most races lacks kobolt language, would be funny to be raised by kobolts and dont be able to speak a word in their language. Well there is the fact that there are many stories in fiction of people being raised by animals, such as Tarzan so it's not like it some crazy idea that no one has thought of. And draconic isn't that rare of a language, and even if you lack it chances are good that there is a kobold who can speak common as it is a bonus language for kobolds. Your advice it is similar to ask to get the multiheaded template so you can cast two spells at once. No, it is not like that at all. The multiheaded template would require a LA and also would have mess with peoples view of the character. Also, most dms tend to frown on templates, especially broken ones such as feral or multiheaded. My advice is more like telling someone to take power attack to do more damage. [EDIT] But it doesn't meet the prerequisites for the Shadowbane Stalker, which was what the OP was interested in (plus options for the character's other Clerical domain). KnightRanger asked for suggestions on how to play a Cleric/Rogue. I was just trying to point out that this discussion was off-topic relative to the OP's query, and therefore wasn't helpful to KnightRanger. How isn't it helpful? He can get all the goodness of the rogue without losing any caster levels. That's way better than losing out on caster levels. Also, Shadowbane Stalker is more of a rogue paladin prc. It loses on two caster levels and requires the loss of another for sneak attack and as such is worthless for any full caster.
Dheran 08-19-06, 05:12 PM	How isn't it helpful? He can get all the goodness of the rogue without losing any caster levels. That's way better than losing out on caster levels. All the goodness? How about losing out on a gazillion skill points? Or the great Reflex saves? Sneak Attack? Uncanny Dodge? Evasion? Improved Uncanny Dodge? Trap Sense? Improved Evasion? A Rogue has many skills and abilities that provide opportunities both for role-playing and for tactical effectiveness. You're projecting your values and ignoring the OP's request. If you just want to stroke your own ego you're doing a fine job. If you want to help with KnightRanger's query you're off topic. Trickery and Kobold domains add Bluff, Disguise, Hide, Disable Device, and Search to a Cleric's list of class skills. A Cleric with these domains doesn't have the points needed to max out all these skills, and you're still ignoring all the other useful Rogue skills like Balance, Gather Information, Listen, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Tumble, and Use Magic Device. All you're saying is that you like playing Clerics better than Rogues. And that you don't care about the OP's interests as much as you do your own.
CaoSlayer 08-19-06, 05:46 PM	"THERE IS ONLY ONE RIGHT WAY TO PLAY DND." Is that what you are trying to say here? No, Im saying that if you take away the role part of a roleplaying game, you dont have a roleplaying game. PD: ah, yes, telling people that playing a half-orc bard it is posible it is optimizing...
DeVorn 08-19-06, 05:47 PM	Gentlemen, please! There are children present! Kobold children. But seriously, championing the OP's cause is great. I rest easy knowing there's an army of men and women on the wall that rests between the countries of Off-topic-stan and On-topic-erica. But there's a point where fighting for the OP's cause in of itself becomes off-topic - and we're about three drinks away from riding that very siege-engine straight through our precious wall. It's a goblin siege-engine, and it's fueled by rum and dumb. Just so I don't fall prey to the very thing I'm talking about, here's my suggestion. A friend of mine once came up with an oddball build - One level of Monk, all the rest Rogue. He was called the Lock-Breaker, and besides having oodles of class skills he could do fairly well so long as he got the drop on you. Investing yet another level in another class on your voyage through Rogue-Cleric land might not be what you're looking for, but that one level in Monk actually didn't turn out that bad in the end, and it added a really oddball flavor to the character (he refused to break the Law without some sort of physical mandate from the King).
KnightRanger 08-25-06, 01:46 PM	I just wanted to say thanks for the advice (Kobold ranting aside;) ) I like the Monk idea as well as the Cloistered Cleric. It actually fits extremely well with my character background. I just wanted to let people in on a little more of the character options I'm taking. Human Classes: 1 Cloistered Cleric 2 Cloistered Cleric 3 Rogue 4 Rogue 5 Rogue 6 Shadowbane Stalker 7 Shadowbane Stalker 8 Shadowbane Stalker 9 Church Inquisitor 10 Church Inquisitor Domains I'm having some trouble with, but I do know I want the Moon domain. I haven't decided on the other though. (Could use some help... please no kobolds) Feats: (all characters in my friend’s game get one extra feat at 1st) Able Learner (Human bonus) Quicken Spell (Character 1st) Domain Spontaneity: Moon (Extra freebie one) Practiced Spellcaster (Character 3rd) Divine Meta Magic: Quicken spell (Character 6th) Extra Turning (Character 9th) That’s pretty much what I got so far, what do you all think? P.S. Yes I know I should have taken Rogue as my 1st level class, but I couldn't get the feats I wanted if I had done that. Oh well Thanks again everyone for all your input this class combo has always been a favorite of mine all the way back to 2nd edition. I’m adding to this as well as I posted this during the switch and it was lost. I need to equip this character in the standard way, 49,000gp for 10th level. What was the maximum amount that you can spend on anyone item and what would you suggest for this kind of character? Any help would be appreciated, thanks in advance :) :)
CaoSlayer 08-25-06, 03:58 PM	a ring of blink it is godlike for a rogue. (27000gp) The max value changes with each DM, some have not limit, others 1/4 and others 1/2
2nd Ed Paladin 08-25-06, 05:05 PM	I am not sure what a cloistered cleric is so I may be off base. Your first level should be Rogue from an optimization point of view. At first level you get 4 times your class skill points and as rogues have the most skill points you can get a head start on most of your roguy skills that way.
ORC_Tao 08-25-06, 07:09 PM	just a gentle reminder to stay on topic. discussions, heated or otherwise, concerning the validity of chosing a racial domain other than your own do little to further the original question posed by KnightRanger. Please keep the discussion to possible combinations for a Rogue/Cleric character. As for my advice... I like the Cleric 4/Rogue 1 entry into the Shadowbane Stalker class. Normally I don't like losing any more spellcasting levels than I have to, and a Cleric 4/Rogue 1/Shadowbane Stalker 10/Cleric 5-9 will still have access to 9th level spells at 20th level. Any more than one level of Rogue and you will plateu at 8th level (or lower) spells. Black Flame Zealot is another option, though not one I would recommend, as it sacrifices a lot of spellcasting ability for its assassin-esque abilities. Plus its a nongood class. I prefer good guys.
Dheran 08-28-06, 07:04 PM	Domains I'm having some trouble with, but I do know I want the Moon domain. I haven't decided on the other though. (Could use some help... please no kobolds) ... Extra Turning (Character 9th) ... That’s pretty much what I got so far, what do you all think? P.S. Yes I know I should have taken Rogue as my 1st level class, but I couldn't get the feats I wanted if I had done that. Does having Extra Turning as a granted power (of the Undeath domain) help with your feat selection? This means you get one more feat, and you can take this instead of Domain Spontaneity at 1st level. If this extra feat doesn't have any clerical or caster prerequisites you can now start off as a Rogue for more skill points. This domain seems like a good fit for your character concept anyway. And as a Cloistered Cleric you also automatically get the Knowledge domain as a 3rd bonus domain.
Beckett 08-29-06, 01:40 AM	Personally, I'd say take the PC from the Complete Divine called, (I think) the Temple Raider. Ignor the spell list and add +1 Divine Spellcaster level at each level. Sift through some of the class features and shift them a little, such as getting rid of things a Rogue would already have and adding something like a lessening of the Armor Check Penulties, and minor detection immunities.