Advancement Proposal [Archive] - Wizards Community

Advancement Proposal [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Vivat Grendel
11-19-04, 12:06 PM Challenge statement: (an observation from COBoard that optimized builds did not achieve playability until much later in progression) “These complicated 4-5 PrC, 2 level dip builds are impractical at lower levels.”
Response: “I disagree, there are a lot of workable builds out there, we could test them pretty easily. Let’s start an arena and test builds out against each other.”

Mission: Test builds, play D&D, have fun.
Purpose: To test builds in an arena environment using Core Rules.

There have been many changes in strategy in the CO Arena. The introduction of the Elders, some tweaks to items, banning spells, map changes. Nothing major, but quite a few changes. Looking at the issues that are still unresolved, I believe a revision of the basic structure of the Arena advancement system would be appropriate. Generally we all agree that the Core part of the arena has to remain, so the key is to change the setting, not the rules. I propose the following:

Advancement: Abandon the current pairings system, (winner advances, 3 loss bump) structure altogether. The use of this system has resulted in a sprawl of gladiators so spread out that at many levels there are not enough combatants to have a match, and the same matches are repeated often. It also causes long pauses while gladiators rise to common levels waiting for enough players to restart.
Replace it with a system where everyone plays the same level and fights a predetermined number of fights. Win-loss records are kept, money is awarded, level advancement is the same, but there is no waiting for competition, as everyone fights at the same level. Furthermore you can do some very interesting things that cut down on metagaming. For example in a 6 fight tier, you could have two rounds of fights with blind pairings. You have to write tactics with no idea of your opponent’s identity, is his will save strong or weak, how about reflex, does he have evasion? Then you have two rounds of challenge matches, or if no challenge exists, random pairings, but you know your opponent in advance. Finally two rounds of pairing by similar record which should produce a 6-0 or at least a 5-1 record. This produces the ‘Top Gun’ of that level, and everyone advances. Lather, rinse, repeat.
Secondary benefits: We can table the 5x magic item cost, because now you have to conserve resources for 6 fights per level. Details can be worked out, but I think that full healing between fights is appropriate, but two fights per day for spell casters. This forces casters to conserve potions, scrolls, and even memorized spells. It is highly possible that by the end, we will see a wizard and a sorcerer going at it with daggers in the middle of the arena, cause they have no spells left. Fighters can spend on potions for buffing, or save for that shiny new sword, (and armor, and shield, and bow, and boots, and etc.) Additionally, there is no ‘odd man out’, you just have to be careful of used resources for the guy that has already fought one match. You could even fight twice in a week in the first round of pairings, as long as you were careful of resource management, since you write fairly generic tactics.

Implementation: Pick a date, lets say first of the year. Everyone makes a new character, pick a level, it does not have to be 2nd. CO Arena has been around long enough that it may not be necessary to start at such a low level, most participants have proven many times that they know how to do levels 2-4. Between now and the first of the year, you finish up the current structure, it is possible that 3-5 guys could make 20th by then, but unlikely for more to do so. When in doubt, consider nearly everything is the same as it is now. ECL for starting characters seems to work. But we would have to come to an understanding of things like switching characters at later levels. I am not against switchouts if you just hate your 3 rogue/2 sorc/4 bard build because it never really came together, but would be against something like playing a strong fighter at low levels and changing to something mid range where you think the fighter is going to level out.

I don’t consider myself overly sensitive, so just about anything is up for grabs in terms of structure. Only want to do 5 fights per level, fine. Reduce the gold awards, fine. Refresh spells (and power points, forgot about those) between every fight, I’m against it personally because I agree that the ‘all spell eggs in one basket’ makes casters pretty powerful, but fine. If you want to go three fights between spell/power point refreshing, now yer talkin’. People could be given ‘COColiseum Top Dog lvl x’ titles in their signature headings.

I ask a favor, reply in the other thread for discussion, because I have a proposal for maps and randomizing the setting/conditions of each fight. It is good, but may be too cumbersome for implementation.
Pittbull
11-19-04, 12:26 PM Hello to you! Wow, there are a lot new ideas, I'll read your post a couple of times more to understand everything you want to change. But isn't there one big point which is against the "core" of the arena? It should be always "open"! If you choose a date to begin, is there there an option to join the game, if somebody comes later?
All in all, I think you 've a lot nice ideas, we have to discuss it and see what the majority likes.
Our old system might has it's failures, but I like it. If there is a way to improve it, I'll be the last to say no.
Sindorin
11-19-04, 12:45 PM Make a Gladiator :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Vivat Grendel 11-19-04, 12:06 PM	Challenge statement: (an observation from COBoard that optimized builds did not achieve playability until much later in progression) “These complicated 4-5 PrC, 2 level dip builds are impractical at lower levels.” Response: “I disagree, there are a lot of workable builds out there, we could test them pretty easily. Let’s start an arena and test builds out against each other.” Mission: Test builds, play D&D, have fun. Purpose: To test builds in an arena environment using Core Rules. There have been many changes in strategy in the CO Arena. The introduction of the Elders, some tweaks to items, banning spells, map changes. Nothing major, but quite a few changes. Looking at the issues that are still unresolved, I believe a revision of the basic structure of the Arena advancement system would be appropriate. Generally we all agree that the Core part of the arena has to remain, so the key is to change the setting, not the rules. I propose the following: Advancement: Abandon the current pairings system, (winner advances, 3 loss bump) structure altogether. The use of this system has resulted in a sprawl of gladiators so spread out that at many levels there are not enough combatants to have a match, and the same matches are repeated often. It also causes long pauses while gladiators rise to common levels waiting for enough players to restart. Replace it with a system where everyone plays the same level and fights a predetermined number of fights. Win-loss records are kept, money is awarded, level advancement is the same, but there is no waiting for competition, as everyone fights at the same level. Furthermore you can do some very interesting things that cut down on metagaming. For example in a 6 fight tier, you could have two rounds of fights with blind pairings. You have to write tactics with no idea of your opponent’s identity, is his will save strong or weak, how about reflex, does he have evasion? Then you have two rounds of challenge matches, or if no challenge exists, random pairings, but you know your opponent in advance. Finally two rounds of pairing by similar record which should produce a 6-0 or at least a 5-1 record. This produces the ‘Top Gun’ of that level, and everyone advances. Lather, rinse, repeat. Secondary benefits: We can table the 5x magic item cost, because now you have to conserve resources for 6 fights per level. Details can be worked out, but I think that full healing between fights is appropriate, but two fights per day for spell casters. This forces casters to conserve potions, scrolls, and even memorized spells. It is highly possible that by the end, we will see a wizard and a sorcerer going at it with daggers in the middle of the arena, cause they have no spells left. Fighters can spend on potions for buffing, or save for that shiny new sword, (and armor, and shield, and bow, and boots, and etc.) Additionally, there is no ‘odd man out’, you just have to be careful of used resources for the guy that has already fought one match. You could even fight twice in a week in the first round of pairings, as long as you were careful of resource management, since you write fairly generic tactics. Implementation: Pick a date, lets say first of the year. Everyone makes a new character, pick a level, it does not have to be 2nd. CO Arena has been around long enough that it may not be necessary to start at such a low level, most participants have proven many times that they know how to do levels 2-4. Between now and the first of the year, you finish up the current structure, it is possible that 3-5 guys could make 20th by then, but unlikely for more to do so. When in doubt, consider nearly everything is the same as it is now. ECL for starting characters seems to work. But we would have to come to an understanding of things like switching characters at later levels. I am not against switchouts if you just hate your 3 rogue/2 sorc/4 bard build because it never really came together, but would be against something like playing a strong fighter at low levels and changing to something mid range where you think the fighter is going to level out. I don’t consider myself overly sensitive, so just about anything is up for grabs in terms of structure. Only want to do 5 fights per level, fine. Reduce the gold awards, fine. Refresh spells (and power points, forgot about those) between every fight, I’m against it personally because I agree that the ‘all spell eggs in one basket’ makes casters pretty powerful, but fine. If you want to go three fights between spell/power point refreshing, now yer talkin’. People could be given ‘COColiseum Top Dog lvl x’ titles in their signature headings. I ask a favor, reply in the other thread for discussion, because I have a proposal for maps and randomizing the setting/conditions of each fight. It is good, but may be too cumbersome for implementation.
Pittbull 11-19-04, 12:26 PM	Hello to you! Wow, there are a lot new ideas, I'll read your post a couple of times more to understand everything you want to change. But isn't there one big point which is against the "core" of the arena? It should be always "open"! If you choose a date to begin, is there there an option to join the game, if somebody comes later? All in all, I think you 've a lot nice ideas, we have to discuss it and see what the majority likes. Our old system might has it's failures, but I like it. If there is a way to improve it, I'll be the last to say no.
Sindorin 11-19-04, 12:45 PM	Make a Gladiator :)