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| Caterane05-07-05, 06:34 AM | It's time to discuss another modification to the standard arena map. This time, our aim is to prevent first round kills, or at least diminish them. Since the Search function doesn't work, I can't quote Ashenai but he said something like... How many times does it happen in a real campaign that your DM says: "As you walk on the mountain path, a pegasus rider rounds the mountain top, releases a barrage of arrows *roll dice* and you're dead"? That however is exactly what happens all too often in the CoCo. Asides from it being unrealistic and not reflecting a real campaign, it is also most frustrating to the player who wrote long tactics but couldn't even act. This is no fun at all. The central pillar did wonders to reduce first round kills but with mounts and later quickened or contingency teleports, the need for another modification arises. A lot has been said about the map and we came to agree that random starting positions would be the best solution. The opponoment doesn't know where you are, and vice versa. This however needs a few modifications. I suggest to use 4 instead of 2 starting positions with the north and south poles being the new ones. Of course, since there is always a direct LOS from your starting position to 2 of 3 others, we need to add some obstacles to prevent LOS to any starting position. How these should look like, I don't know, but that's what we are going to discuss here. I also want to use this opportunity to adress the absence of rogue builds in the arena which is directly related to the lack of cover. The new and stricter rule for hiding worsened their situation further. The Central Obstacle is the only "complex" structure inside the arena and basically the only region where you can effectively sneak around. This should be discussed (and changed) too. Ok, so let's find a solution together. EDIT: If you want to present your draft, copy the Arena Map (the second version) into a word or text document, modify it, and copy it in here using the (code)(/code) command. |
| Pittbull05-07-05, 06:53 AM | I like the idea of random starting-positions (4 altogether). Something like that: As a starting-signal, each gladiator is teleported in a random position in the arena. There sould be even a hinderance for contingency(teleport when starting-signal)-tactic. |
| cellardweller05-07-05, 07:49 AM | draft 1: x 3 2 1 - + 1 2 3 y 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 30 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 9 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 8 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 7 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 6 w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w 5 w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w 4 w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 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high wall |
| cellardweller05-07-05, 07:52 AM | With regards to rogue builds, this is a proposal I threw up a while ago: As an alternate compromise position I put forward the addition of a "fog of battle". The arena would have a fog that provides enough concealment to make a hide check outside a distance of 150' (negotiable). This is not enough concealment to provide a miss chance though. (See images in Indri vs Rook) for an idea of what I mean. |
| Caterane05-07-05, 09:34 AM | The draft 1 is not bad but the walls would seriously hamper chargers. I'm not sure about the fog of war; I'd prefer some modifications on the arena but we should keep it in mind. We could even go as far as removing some 5ft rocks in order to create other obstacles. That would on the one hand create more open spaces but also more obstacles. Perhaps we could widen the pillars to 2x2 spaces, or 3x3 even (after all, a 5ft and 155ft high pillar looks very fragile). I am really open to suggestions. |
| Kaigan05-07-05, 10:42 AM | I suggest making the pillars at (5,5) and all other combinations of + and - to be 10ft by 10ft, cutting off the little hole there. |
| Salzorin05-07-05, 11:33 AM | Aside from the technical change to make the 4 starting points, random placement a possibility... I wonder if we couldn't add a little more spice within the arena (like the walls suggestion above) at the same time. Currently, the only place where movement picks up pace a little bit and the action can get a bit confusing (interesting) is the central pillar. Perhaps we could copy that central pilar outward to the corner 4 times to obstruct LOS between the new starting positions. Of course, that also might require us to back up the starting positions as well. Another idea that might be interesting would be something like a 20x20x20 obstruction that was flat on the top, that a person could maybe climb onto the top platform and use that location for ranged attacks. An opponent, obviously, would be just as capable of joining him on that not-too-large platform... so it has its weaknesses as a strategic location, as well as its strengths. Just trying to think of what we could possibly do to add a little flavor, at the same time as getting the functionality we need... |
| xanadu05-07-05, 02:33 PM | I'd like to see something where a gladiator could use the climb skill; maybe a climbable platform which has no plants or anchors. Alternativly, a random building or something simple as a pillbox with 2 or 3 floors put in the area would really spice things up. There would be the roof (with random obstacles on top for cover), windows and an interior for ambushes or close quarters fighting. Also, having a forest in one of the corners of the arena would also create interesting terrain for close-quarters combat and stealth. |
| Pitlords05-07-05, 02:57 PM | Xanadu, your suggestions are too complex. We're talking about the Standard Arena Map. A forest for example, would spoil mounted combat as every non-mounted combatant would just enter and never leave the woods. No, it still has to be functional and shouldn't discriminate any build, like the current map does with rogues. The best suggestion so far is Salzorin's. He suggests to copy the Central Obstacle 4 times between the starting positions, and/or widen the pillars a bit. I also want to give you a look into the future of LivingGladius. The Standard Arena Map won't be the only one in the future as it represents only one aspect of a battleground. While I browsed through the other boards I heard that some don't join the CoCo because it offers only a limited perspective for builds: on the one hand, there is only PvP battle when most real campaign battles involve monsters (this is something we can talk about another time), and on the other hand the single setting the fights take place in. Random starting positions and some new obstacles will do for now and make the Standard Map more build-variation friendly but to fully test the effectivity of a build, we need to see it fight in different enviroments, ie random maps. Those Random Maps (rolled together with the pairings for each pairings seperately) may contain forests or open spaces but let's focus on the Standard Map for now. |
| Snommelp05-07-05, 03:15 PM | What we need to be careful of (apart from not having enough cover) is having too many things cluttering up the arena. We want a map that doesn't discriminate against any build, and adding too much cover will be very discriminatory to straight-forward builds, like mounted fighters or summoners. |
| Zyme8605-07-05, 04:36 PM | I like the idea of duplicating the centreal pillar. but In addition to placing the pillar set , I would reccomend removeing the current centreal pillar and add a V shaped wall about 10ft infront of the starting position, this would block LOS |
| spasheridan05-07-05, 08:29 PM | I've mentioned this before. Make the starting locations "pits". It's a 5 foot deep hole with a staircase, covered by a 1-way forcefield. You are required to exit the pit on your first action, but even a 5-foot adjust will take you out. Or it's a teleporter into the ring (logistics of many people / large allies make the pit unwieldy). With this change the map stays the same but before you're first go you are not a valid target. You are guaranteed at least 1 action before you're targeted by your opponent, so pick your first defense wisely... |
| Zyme8605-07-05, 08:47 PM | What about requiring mounted fighters to stat unmounted and mount on their first action, that would stop the first round attacks |
| spasheridan05-07-05, 09:01 PM | What about requiring mounted fighters to stat unmounted and mount on their first action, that would stop the first round attacksAll you need is speed 50 to get LOS with a single move action. Boots of haste give you +30 move while activated. Barbarian / Speed of thought is speed 50. Laph is a pixie with a fly speed of 60... Mounts are not the problem. |
| Pitlords05-08-05, 05:10 AM | What about requiring mounted fighters to stat unmounted and mount on their first action, that would stop the first round attacks Quickmount. What if everyone has to start emptyhanded? Just a thought. |
| Jindl05-08-05, 10:53 AM | Quickmount. What if everyone has to start emptyhanded? Just a thought. You can easily draw your weapon as part of your first move action. It doesn't really help anything, except that the flatfooted guy wouldn't have his shield ready yet. |
| Jindl05-08-05, 11:10 AM | Good initiative modifiers and high movement speeds are supposed to be very important in DnD and thus should remain so in the CoCo. I don't want the changes to the map to make initiative unimportant. But I do think we have an issue with metagame knowledge of your opponent's location at the start. So here is an idea I've been thinking about: Instead of 4 random starting positions, why not just create a "starting box" for each side. Basically it would be about a 60x60x60 ft cube that your character and your allies must start within. The (x,y,z) starting coordinates that you choose for you and your allies would be listed as part of your tactics, with the default at (+/- 21, 0, 0). We would do away with the rule that your ally cannot begin closer to your opponent that you are. As long as you are all within the starting box, it is legal. Box A would be drawn from (-28, 6, 0) to (-28, -6, 0) to (-14, -6, 0) to (14, 6, 0), and extend 60 ft up to form the cube. Box B would simply be a mirror image on the other side. I would make one more change, adding a column at the old positions "A" and "B", to provide a bit more cover within the starting box. There may be some other minor changes implemented as well (such as enlarging some columns to be 10x10), but I think this avoids making huge changes to a map which has been pretty good. I think using a "starting box" would help eliminate the metagame knowledge of your opponent's starting location, while still keeping some of the importance that both initiative and movement speed has in tabletop DnD. It also helps mimic the idea that pc's in a tabletop game usually have some influence on their starting positions. In a tabletop game, how many times is the rogue really surprised while standing in the middle of a room, more than 30 ft from any cover? How often does combat start with all of the wizard's allies behind him or to the side? I think using the "starting box" will help mimic how the characters would really start if this was a true encounter. -Jindl |
| Caterane05-08-05, 03:25 PM | That's also a good idea Jindl but how does it help? If Rayos wins ini he can still write "ride into LOS and rapid kill him"; there's effectively no disadvantage. Still, a bit more leeway in chosing the starting position might be a good point to begin with. It also doesn't solve the rogue problem and since every party has at least one rogue, I'd like to see more of them here. That means, more obstacles. Btw, no one wants to eliminate the importance of initiative but as it is now, ini is far too powerful. |
| Zerone05-08-05, 04:01 PM | How about adding something similar to central pillars on the 4 starting locations? This would make mounts need to move around them, and flying mounts need space to turn, etc... this would cut down LoS unless both characters would want it, and allow 'hiders' to hide. It would also make gladiators use Spot, Track & other abilities more... I also see nothing wrong with placing walls in the arena, perhaps of crumbled buildings (2 or 3 sided with right angles) and ways to gain elevation without having to fly (ledges or rooftops), all allowing areas of shadow to fall... Also stating which way the light falls on the arena (45 degree angle form the North) would allow for more shadows... I also think that 4 random battlegrounds could be rolled for before each fight, that way if a rogue gets the 'night time super shadow' battleground, they will have an advantage, adding an element of randomness to the battles, and perhaps seeing darkvision and other elements/abilities (water, forest, hide, spot, track, listen, etc) get some use and add some realism to the battles. *•. Z |
| Megrim_Lord05-08-05, 04:04 PM | I'd like to see something where a gladiator could use the climb skill; maybe a climbable platform which has no plants or anchors. Alternativly, a random building or something simple as a pillbox with 2 or 3 floors put in the area would really spice things up. There would be the roof (with random obstacles on top for cover), windows and an interior for ambushes or close quarters fighting. Also, having a forest in one of the corners of the arena would also create interesting terrain for close-quarters combat and stealth. a system of catwalks and sniper towers would be pretty cool... |
| Pitlords05-08-05, 04:05 PM | Let's focus on the Standard Map for now, and this one has to stay functional. Adding light angles and different elevations makes the fights much more difficult. We'll discuss the specifics for random arenas some time later. |
| Kaigan05-08-05, 04:10 PM | :( why does Rayos always get picked on??? |
| Zerone05-08-05, 04:52 PM | Let's focus on the Standard Map for now, and this one has to stay functional. Adding light angles and different elevations makes the fights much more difficult. We'll discuss the specifics for random arenas some time later. Meh... I knew you were going to say that... :D What about the idea of adding something similar to central pillars on the 4 starting locations? This would make mounts have to move around them, and flying mounts need space to turn, etc... this would cut down LoS unless both characters would want it at the start of a battle and allow for hiding. It would also make gladiators use other abilities that are not used enough/at all (Track, Spot, etc.). I also see nothing wrong with placing walls in the arena, perhaps of crumbled buildings (2 or 3 sided with right angles) and ways to gain elevation without having to fly (ledges or rooftops), allowing more places to hide... I know that these changes would reduce the 'power' of a character who wishes to charge, but I feel that it equals out by allowing more uses of other classes/abilities... Comments? *•. Z |
| TaggIIV05-08-05, 05:30 PM | I've mentioned this before. Make the starting locations "pits". It's a 5 foot deep hole with a staircase, covered by a 1-way forcefield. You are required to exit the pit on your first action, but even a 5-foot adjust will take you out. Or it's a teleporter into the ring (logistics of many people / large allies make the pit unwieldy). With this change the map stays the same but before you're first go you are not a valid target. You are guaranteed at least 1 action before you're targeted by your opponent, so pick your first defense wisely... I think this idea is pretty good. Simple, and yet eliminates the big problem (I think?) without making any drastic changes. How about using the teleporter with random starting locations? So the person who wins initiative wont know yet where his opponent is going to begin, and wont necessarily be able to move in immediately. |
| LLMadCow05-09-05, 05:35 AM | That's also a good idea Jindl but how does it help? If Rayos wins ini he can still write "ride into LOS and rapid kill him"; there's effectively no disadvantage. Still, a bit more leeway in chosing the starting position might be a good point to begin with. It also doesn't solve the rogue problem and since every party has at least one rogue, I'd like to see more of them here. That means, more obstacles. Btw, no one wants to eliminate the importance of initiative but as it is now, ini is far too powerful. Sometimes you have to take a long hard look at things. Yes, initiative is quite powerful, but it is still modified by the roll of a d20. The fact of the matter is that we are often talking about 1-on-1 battles. In 1-on-1 battles, it can be a matter of initiative. There is nothing wrong with that. That is realism. That is how it works. That is why builds have a million different things they can focus on to deter the million different ways they can die from that one attack. AC 1,000 against the storm of arrows. Reflex save 500 against that crazy fireball. There comes a point in the arena where I don't think we can keep trying to level the playing field. We have gone to great lengths to make things fair and even. You say that no one wants to eliminate the importance of initiative, but what is it going to be if you can't get that first turn kill? HA-HA! I wounded you! or maybe even HA-HA! I got to move before you did; good thing I have a high initiative or you might have moved first! Okay, I acknowledge that having the higher initiative and being able to act first in the round goes a long way, but consider this: some fights would unfold as either a first turn kill, or the opponent gets to start buffing and that makes all the difference. I have seen a number of first turn kills that would have gone completely different if that character had lost initiative. That is one way to build a PC. Some are well rounded, while others are built with a serious focus and huge gaping holes in their armor! Yes, he can destroy you with his weapon of choice, but god forbid you go after him with anything requiring any kind of Will save! Or, for the well rounded PC, he may be tough to kill, but all you have to do is out last him. I really do like Jindl's idea, a starting box with a pillar where the starting point used to be. I think if this is combined with the idea of having four possible starting locales that a solid solution has been found. Perhaps something a little bit more than a starting column, but something needs to be within the starting box. This allows for PCs to use their starting columns as cover and some interesting variations. Rumors of my demise were wildly exaggerated! |
| Pittbull05-09-05, 06:35 AM | I like Jindl's idea of a strating-box, but I'm not sure about placing an ally in front of the gladiator. |
| Caterane05-12-05, 02:43 PM | Ok, let's see what we have... Starting box (~60x60ft). The gladiator decides where he starts. Advantage: The gladiator can begin behind cover. The opponoment does not know the exact position before the match. Problem: 1) You might begin within LOS if both choose the northern/southern positions 2) A simple diagonal ride reveals the position and the attacker can still do everything he can do now. 4 Random starting positions. Added north and south, and rolled randomly before the match. Also necessary for All vs All fights and Team fights. Problem: 1) Gladiators can still see each other if not diametrally opposed. 2) Distance to 2 positions is much shorter than now. 3) Even with more obstacles, a single move forward puts you easily into LOS of 2 positions. Add more obstacles. Widen the pillars and paste the central obstacle 4 times. I think we can combine these suggestions. 4 random positions with Jindl's starting box (although not 60x60 but smaller), and more obstacles should make 1st round assaults more difficult, and provide a better enviroment for rogues. Now we should focus on the details. |
| spasheridan05-12-05, 03:52 PM | No love for my idea of a starting bunker? this time, our aim is to prevent first round kills, or at least diminish them.My idea of starting the match outside the arena and being teleported in on your first action does this fairly well. Say you start in a TP square and it's a free action to activate it and it kicks in by the end of your turn no matter what. If this is our aim, reducing 1st round kills, then my action gives every player 1 round to buff before being faced with an oppnent. A simple potion of invisibility would usually be enough to get you out of the starting location. You can combine this with any of the other ideas, starting boxes instead of a square or multiple starting areas. You can also reshape the arena with this idea in any way you want... |
| Caterane05-12-05, 04:10 PM | @Spash: That would basically just be a free prebuff. And where prebuffs are concerned, casters rule the day. Your invisibility potion might be a good idea at low levels but while the level 17 fighter still has only a potion of invisibility (or something similar) the wizard can prebuff with a lvl 9 spell. Completely unfair. I have a better idea (s.b.) Here's my arena suggestion. http://home.arcor.de/caterane/Miscellaneous%20Pictures/LG-2.jpg The stupid Dungeoncrafter cut the lower part off. Perhaps someone with a good image manipulation program can copy/paste the upper part. I have increased the size of the central obstacle and added 4 other obstacles but also removed many pillars and rocks that dotted the landscape. I also moved the starting positions backward so that mounts cannot single move and manykill the Elder. There are 4 starting boxes and you can begin anywhere inside the black box. If you don't specify your starting location you start at the marked starting positions. It is definately better than the old arena. We can also add Cellardweller's idea: fog inside the starting boxes during round 1. If you (especially the Elders) agree with this arena, we can implement it next wednesday. Oh, and someone needs to complete the lower part. That would be supercool!! |
| Jindl05-12-05, 04:57 PM | @Cat - It's a good start, but have you considered what this arena shape will do to the charging builds? Also note that there is almost nowhere within the starting box that you can begin behind cover. I think instead of putting cover at the edge of the box, you should put it inside the middle. As another idea, we may want to go to a square arena with the starting boxes in the corners... EDIT: And its "Rapidkill", not manykill. And I think you meant Uhmentarymster and the Elder, since you must now face Rayos the Destroyer. :D -Jindl |
| spasheridan05-12-05, 05:09 PM | that would basically just be a free prebuff. And where prebuffs are concerned, casters rule the day. Your invisibility potion might be a good idea at low levels but while the level 17 fighter still has only a potion of invisibility (or something similar) the wizard can prebuff with a lvl 9 spell. Completely unfair. I have a better idea (s.b.)True, the wizard get's a great buff and the fighter get's a potion... but that is neither here nor there. It's already well established that a fighter is at a great disadvantage vs a wizard at high levels. Let's stick to comparing apples to apples.. not apples to anvils. Your purpose for the arena reshape is to.. prevent first round kills, or at least diminish them THere are 2 ways of doing this. 1) Allowing a defense action before the 1st attack (prebuff) 2) Not allowing the 1st attack (block LOS / LOE) #2, if done via obstacles, just encourages very fast movement. Hippogryphs with boots of haste (130 fly speed?) will allow any obstacle to be circumvented, as will quickened dimension door or teleport spells. All #2 does it make the 1st round kill more difcult logisitcly. It does not prevent it. Moving the starting area back, adding fog, putting more obstacles.. all this does is play with this idea of preventing an attack on rnd 1. #1 Gives each player an equal choice. You get at least 1 action before the fight is over. Now a 1st round kill is caused by an action of both players, not just the winner's action. WHile it's true that some players will have better "buffs" then others, it always been true that a 20th level wizard has options of meteor strikes every round vs a fighters choice of melee / ranged attacks.. so the pre-buff round is no differant than any other round except that you CANNOT be attacked during that round if you don't want to be. I have increased the size of the central obstacle and added 4 other obstacles but also removed many pillars and rocks that dotted the landscape. I also moved the starting positions backward so that mounts cannot single move and manykill the Elder. Like I said above, there are ways around this physical limitation.. faster mounts, teleport spells. This only hurts melee type gladiators by forcing them to be 300+ feet apart instead of 200 feet when you start. There are 4 starting boxes and you can begin anywhere inside the black box. If you don't specify your starting location you start at the marked starting positions. It is definately better than the old arena.Providing options for starting positions will either move PCs closer or farther apart. Fast PC's will still be able to close the distance, this does not stop 1st round kills. We can also add Cellardweller's idea: fog inside the starting boxes during round 1. This option blocks LOS, but not LOE. It is identical to mine except that your opponent can teleport next to you with a quickened spel or target your starting location with an area effect or move very close to you with a fast mount... this will prevent 1st round archer deaths but not 1st round spell deaths. SO.. Elder can 1 round kill Laph but Laph cannot 1 round kill Elder. I'm not sure we should be preserving 1 round kill power for spellcasters but taking it away from non-casters.. that seems to be directionaly incorrect. SO.. in conclusion.. if our purpose is prevent first round kills, or at least diminish them Then we must do more than physically seperate our gladiators on rnd 0. We must break LOE between them until they have both had a single action. The only way to do this is to teleport the gladiators into the ring on their action or put them inside a forcefield on the battlefield. Any other action simply takes 1st round kills away from "normals" and leaves it to the hyper fast, teleporters, and area effect spell casters. |
| Caterane05-12-05, 05:30 PM | True, the wizard get's a great buff and the fighter get's a potion... but that is neither here nor there. It's already well established that a fighter is at a great disadvantage vs a wizard at high levels. Let's stick to comparing apples to apples.. not apples to anvils. So what you're saying is that wizards are already better than the fighters so it doesn't matter if they become even more powerful. As I said, a free prebuff is not an option because wizards can make much better use of this free round than any non-caster. This is unfair. And I don't want to prevent first round kills but diminish them. And this is what the arena above does by obstacles, greater distances, and CD's fog inside the starting bank which leaves options like your opponent can teleport next to you with a quickened spel which is a 9th level spell and why should a wizard teleport next to the fighter into a fog bank anyway when he cannot target the fighter due to the fog. Oh, and of course only if he picks the right starting square. It diminishes the importance of initiative without making ini useless so it's a good thing. @Jindl: We cannot make an arena which favors every build. If you improve the odds for chargers, you ban the rogue who is and always has been non-existant - which is very sad considering that this is one of the very basic builds of every party. From 1st Edition D&D on. The solution is to have more than one arena. The current one should be about average for every build with some tactical options. Other maps could be: - the plain (almost no obstacles) - the dungeon (low ceiling) - the city (many obstacles) which would be 4 different arenas and should be sufficient. We can add a rock in the middle of the starting position but if we use the fog idea there's no need for that. PS: Rayos used manyshot => manykill. He cannot use rapidshot and move. |
| spasheridan05-12-05, 05:51 PM | So what you're saying is that wizards are already better than the fighters so it doesn't matter if they become even more powerful. As I said, a free prebuff is not an option because wizards can make much better use of this free round than any non-caster. This is unfair. And I don't want to prevent first round kills but diminish them.The wizard's 1st round is as good as any other round he has. It's not a pre-buff imbalance that the wizard can cast meteor swarm or tensers transofrmation while the fighter can only move or shoot or drink a potion... that imbalance is there in EVERY round. So bringing this imbalance up as evidence that a pre-buff is a poor choice is a poor arguement. Here is the differance between starting on the field and being teleported onto the field... you cannot be SHOT or NUKED before your first action. Or you can. With a teleport arena the 1st person to go can teleport onto the battlefield as they start their turn, move so they can see their opponents starting zone, and ready an action. THe 2nd person to go can then buff themself (invisible, protection from blah, vigor..) and be teleported onto the field to face the readied action. The 1st round kill is still POSSIBLE, it's just that the 2nd person to go get's to do 1 thing before they get hit. As far as wizards v fighters go, the choice is simple. Either leave the arena as is so fighters can move and shoot the wizard before the wizard can cast their first spell, or change it so they can't. If the fighter cannot shoot the wizard before their first spell (as the case with fog on round 1) then the wizard, in effect, get's a free pre-buff. But the wizard, if he goes first, is still capable of tossing a fireball onto the fighters starting box and killing the fighter before he goes with fog, with the teleport he can't do this(with a small bit of luck, but the fighter would need that luck as well to kill with a single arrow). My solution, fair and balanced. Everyone get's 1 action before they can die. Your solution, wizards can 1st round kill, fighters can't. |
| Zerone05-12-05, 07:07 PM | Hmmm... Before I knew of the CoCo my friends and I had yearly tournaments (from 1st D&D till now) where we created characters and fought to the death, the winner went on and the loser didn't, until we had 1 character left - the champion. Some years we included monsters in to the tournament, run by some another player, which added some spice... Our format consisted of 2 preparatory actions, then we were teleported into the arena and rolled initiative. This definitely favors the casters and we have not found a solution yet. Any preparatory actions will always favor casters - that’s what they do, buff, aid, and destroy, and that is also their weakness, for them to be ready takes preparation. Non-casters are ready to go from the start - an advantage. To take away the non-casters advantage of being ready from round 1 is unfair. However, it is unfair to allow them to know where their opponents are without allowing their opponents the option to prepare. Technically, non-spellcasters have prepared because they know where the opponent is. So, make it fair by not giving preparatory actions and a completely random starting location. The arena is 61x61. Create a random roller for locations and poof, that is where you appear and then roll initiative. Only the Pitlord will know of the starting locations – they will roll before the battle after tactics are recieved. Yes this makes tactics more technical (if I can see them at the start – if not, then…, etc.) but at least it is a fair solution. Yes this puts an element of luck into the battle but one already exists, as you roll dice to find the outcome of your actions... If a character challenges another character, then the starting locations could be known, or decided on before the battle. That would be fair, as both characters agreed to the terms. Or they could still do it random, it would be up to them to decide, but if no decision is come to then it reverts to random location… Comments? *•. Z |
| spasheridan05-12-05, 07:28 PM | To take away the non-casters advantage of being ready from round 1 is unfair. However, it is unfair to allow them to know where their opponents are without allowing their opponents the option to prepare. Technically, non-spellcasters have prepared because they know where the opponent is. So, make it fair by not giving preparatory actions and a completely random starting location. The arena is 61x61. Create a random roller for locations and poof, that is where you appear and then roll initiative. Only the Pitlord will know of the starting locations – they will roll before the battle after tactics are recieved.I'm not sure what you're getting at. 1) Casters can buff so pre-fight actions are better for casters 2) Non-casters are at full fighting capacity on round 1 3) Knowing your opponents starting location is an edge for non-casters I'll say that #1 is mostly true, but many simple buffs available for non-casters and they are quite effective. #2 is true, but casters are at full fighting capacity on round 1 as well. Sure, if they want to get melee then they need 2 or 4 rounds to buff up to fighter power, but that's what fly / invisibility are for. In any case, casters are best known for save or die spells.. and those can be cast on rnd 1 just like archers can shoot arrows on round 1. As far as #3 this knowledge is an edge for both. KNowing his starting location allows you to throw up walls of X, area effet spells, summon monsters at the appropriate place.. it's the same. So, we're down to the questions of why do we design the arena as is. First, we want to allow each possible build a possible victory. So we need to be fair to both archers and sword swingers. We need to be fair to mounted lance wielders and hiding snipers. We need to be fair to spell casters and non-spell casters. SO, we want opponents far enough apart that they aren't stuck in melee on round 1. That's a sad day for ranged type PC's. We want opponents close enough that the melee type can close with the ranged type within a round or 2. Spending 6 rounds running into melee while you get shot at is no fun. We need enough cover to hide behind while leaving enough open room for mounted combatants and large gladiators to fight in. So, complete random locations would make the fights either fair or unbalanced on round 1. And they could be quite unbalanced... or about as fair as the current lay out. The desire from this discussion is to reduce or diminish 1 round kills. Your change either keeps the status quo or it makes 1 round kills easier... so I believe it fails to accomplish what we were hoping for. |
| Jindl05-12-05, 07:39 PM | PS: Rayos used manyshot => manykill. He cannot use rapidshot and move. I thought it was rapid shot after a single move on his mount? |
| Jindl05-12-05, 07:49 PM | I just want to say that I am not in favor of any effect which prevents interaction between characters in the first round (not cellar's fog preventing LOS, or spash's starting bunker preventing LOE). Yes, I want to make it more difficult to execute a 1st round kill. But high speed + high initiative characters can and do perform 1 round kills in tabletop DnD. In my RL campaign there is a character who has done it more than once (mighty+6 comp. longbow crits are ugly). I'm in favor of the starting boxes because it eliminates #3 from spash's list above (although #3 is really more an edge for casters than noncasters). It requires you to be able to spot/listen to locate your opponent before attacking them. And these skills are perhaps 2 of the most important in the game. Some additional obstacles are needed to provide the 4 starting locations (to accomodate some of the new types of matches). And I think making some cover available within the starting boxes is helpful also. And I'd advise allowing characters to start the match hiding behind such cover as well (because many encounters in DnD begin with at least one side hidden.) But keep in mind, we aren't trying to eliminate the usefulness of initiative and high speed, just trying to put it into normal context for an average campaign. -Jindl |
| spasheridan05-12-05, 08:06 PM | I just want to say that I am not in favor of any effect which prevents interaction between characters in the first round (not cellar's fog preventing LOS, or spash's starting bunker preventing LOE). Yes, I want to make it more difficult to execute a 1st round kill. But high speed + high initiative characters can and do perform 1 round kills in tabletop DnD. In my RL campaign there is a character who has done it more than once (mighty+6 comp. longbow crits are ugly).Fair enough. IMO the requirement has to be no change or block LOE. Blocking LOS is just to much of a perk for spell casters. I'm in favor of the starting boxes because it eliminates #3 from spash's list above (although #3 is really more an edge for casters than noncasters). It requires you to be able to spot/listen to locate your opponent before attacking them. And these skills are perhaps 2 of the most important in the game. Some additional obstacles are needed to provide the 4 starting locations (to accomodate some of the new types of matches). And I think making some cover available within the starting boxes is helpful also. And I'd advise allowing characters to start the match hiding behind such cover as well (because many encounters in DnD begin with at least one side hidden.) The issue at hand with this is that the cover is negated by LOS. A wizard simply uses a quickened dimension door (available at level 7 with a metamagic rod of quicken) to d-door to (-30,0) from (20,0) and he can now see you .. your cover was in the front not the back. So the hiding works great vs anyone but a teleporter. The only alternative is to use random starting locations (d4 for start) but then you could wind up starting in LOS of your opponent... But keep in mind, we aren't trying to eliminate the usefulness of initiative and high speed, just trying to put it into normal context for an average campaign. -JindlThe advantage of speed + init should not combine to a 30% chance of 1 round kill. I find the 1 round kill to be mostly an abuse of the design of the arena and the initial starting conditions of the arena. Since we can't change how the abuse occurs we can only alter the starting conditions of the fight. And, in a normal campaign... how often does a PC die on round 1? Because in the arena it's PC v PC, not PC v Monster. Sure a PC can take out a monster with 1 hit fairly often, that's what the monster is there for.. to die. A PC going belly up on rnd 1 is usually very cruel. The PC should have had a chance to say get the death ward up before he walked into the room with the bodak or the PC saw some crumbly statues and had a chance to put a blindfold on before fighting the medusa. This is the 1 round pre-buff outside the arena.. the action you took before you opened the door that the monster was hiding behind. Speed will always be a big factor, but initiative is a small factor. We just need to ask ourselves if we feel that it's more fun to have 1 round kills or not. |
| Jindl05-12-05, 10:32 PM | The issue at hand with this is that the cover is negated by LOS. A wizard simply uses a quickened dimension door (available at level 7 with a metamagic rod of quicken) to d-door to (-30,0) from (20,0) and he can now see you .. your cover was in the front not the back. So the hiding works great vs anyone but a teleporter. The only alternative is to use random starting locations (d4 for start) but then you could wind up starting in LOS of your opponent... FYI: Use of dimension door would prevent the wizard from any additional actions that round. The advantage of speed + init should not combine to a 30% chance of 1 round kill. I find the 1 round kill to be mostly an abuse of the design of the arena and the initial starting conditions of the arena. Since we can't change how the abuse occurs we can only alter the starting conditions of the fight. And, in a normal campaign... how often does a PC die on round 1? Because in the arena it's PC v PC, not PC v Monster. Sure a PC can take out a monster with 1 hit fairly often, that's what the monster is there for.. to die. A PC going belly up on rnd 1 is usually very cruel. The PC should have had a chance to say get the death ward up before he walked into the room with the bodak or the PC saw some crumbly statues and had a chance to put a blindfold on before fighting the medusa. This is the 1 round pre-buff outside the arena.. the action you took before you opened the door that the monster was hiding behind. Speed will always be a big factor, but initiative is a small factor. We just need to ask ourselves if we feel that it's more fun to have 1 round kills or not. And how often is the party suprised? The difference between being surprised or getting a surprise round (the 1 round prebuff...) depends on spot/listen/hide/move silently skills. That's one thing the starting box should help to mimic. If you can start hidden behind some of the cover in the box, then your opponent first has to spot you before they can target you with anything (and vice versa). Of course, the fact that a starting box also helps mimic the marching order of a typical party doesn't hurt either, especially in team matches or fights where allies are involved. -Jindl |
| Zerone05-12-05, 10:40 PM | I'm not sure what you're getting at. 1) Casters can buff so pre-fight actions are better for casters 2) Non-casters are at full fighting capacity on round 1 3) Knowing your opponents starting location is an edge for non-casters I'll say that #1 is mostly true, but many simple buffs available for non-casters and they are quite effective. #2 is true, but casters are at full fighting capacity on round 1 as well. Sure, if they want to get melee then they need 2 or 4 rounds to buff up to fighter power, but that's what fly / invisibility are for. In any case, casters are best known for save or die spells.. and those can be cast on rnd 1 just like archers can shoot arrows on round 1. As far as #3 this knowledge is an edge for both. KNowing his starting location allows you to throw up walls of X, area effet spells, summon monsters at the appropriate place.. it's the same. spasheridan, do you have an exact idea as to what could better the arena? We don't need to make it better, or fair, or anything for that matter. I still believe that the solution is to be found in random maps and random starting locations. Buffs favor casters, hands downs, especially at higher levels. Fly for a fighter is easily Dispelled vs. a fly from a wizard, etc. Casters are already more powerful at higher levels, that just makes them stronger. With extra spell levels/power points available that they are wasting due to the 1/3 rule, they become even more powerful, as there is no loss for the coming battle – they were cast out of battle and do not count towards that battles amount – current ruling. Non-casters are at full fighting capacity on round 1 and casters are not. Try to interrupt a fighter swinging a sword so they have to make a concentration check or stop swinging their sword... Melee characters have to do nothing to use all of their powers on round 1. A spellcaster casts a buff spell: while effective, wasting a turn when I am in a situation where I have to kill you. I fire arrows at you/swing my weapon: effective on all levels. Big difference on how these actions affect the battle, immediate vs. gradual. By allowing one to know your opponents location the CoCo eliminates several key abilities of classes. These become useless, making a character whose CR is based off the power of said ability less potent, and making him a weaker combatant – a lesser CR. So while it might be fair to both combatants, it is not fair to them if they have a class who’s CR is based off of a useless ability. This subject relates more to arenas than meets the eye… Hide, Track, etc. Then again, are we as combatants actually fighting within a coliseum or are we somewhere else? If all of our fights took place in the same gladiatorial pit, then there should be no complaints and everyone knows what to expect. If we are trying to make it more role-playing based (random) then we need multiple maps that are drawn randomly before the fight. If one character gets the advantage then that’s the way it is. Hrmph… received a phone call and lost my train of thought. Maybe more on this later… ;) *•. Z |
| Kaigan05-13-05, 01:47 AM | Well I don't see why everyone... well okay, not everyone, mainly Cat, is picking on Rayos. He only did one 1 round kill. And I have only tried it once more. The xp penalty for my horse is getting on my nerves, so I won't be employing that tactic anymore. And just for everyones information. A move and rapid shot, if both of mine hit, is only 2d8+4, maybe more if your Rayos' favored enemy. Now look at Zubair, who if he hits, does 1d8+4 +4d6 worth of deep crystal and psionic shot. Now where I have only employed this tactic sparingly, and Zubair uses it almost everyweek, I still get picked on and I don't like it. So basically, stop using Rayos as evidence, or as a means for arguing, becuase I'm not the only one doing it. :) We are trying to modify. Key word, modify the arena to better suit all builds, and here we are trying to simply change the start of the fight as we know it. Sure I would like to see the integration of new maps, but later on maybe. One thing at a time. From what I've read, the main problem is with Rayos. J/k. With one round kills. Now we are trying to make everything equal for all characters, but how is that possible. How is that possible at all. What it comes down to is how you use your character. If I want to take advantage of using a 1 round kill in order to beat the elder, who I know if I don't kill in 1 round, will utterly destroy me, then I will take it. If I am fighting someone who is not as likely to do so, I may sit it out a bit, and use entangle, etc. By changing the arena the way you guys are discussing, it will no longer be fun testing out builds. I mean, how is an archer build supposed to kill something that is invisible, flying, etc, without being able to do a 1 round kill. I think my main complains here are that 1: modifying the arena a bit, to lessen the use of 1 round kills is a good thing, however what I see I'm not liking. 2: This has nothing to do with the arena map, but expendibles have way too much sway with people's characters. But anyways we are trying to incorporate D&D like structure to the arena, and we have been trying. I just want to ask this, and this is for anyone to answer: If you were an archer build, riding a horse, fighting the elder, what would you do? I mean, hey. The elder had low HP, low AC, and I took advantage of that. Had the elder won initiative then he would have gone invis, and used a spell or power that would be of an advantage for him. I mean, what it seems to me is the arena does this: Protects the weak wizards at low levels from archers/ranged builds, and tries to protect archers/ranged builds from wizards at high level. Every modification you make creates a bigger burden on the pitlord. We have to relearn the map, it will take us longer to do things. And soon, I will not really like to pitlord anymore. Did you ever take that into consideration? But as I said before, modifying the map in any way will hamper at least one class. Put more obstacles, chargers get nerfed. Remove obstacles, stealthy gets nerfed. Remove LOS, LOE from start positions, archers get nerfed. Keep known LOS, LOE, wizards become worried. I really, really don't see why we have to modify. I really don't. I'm not saying that becuase I used a 1round kill. I would hate to be on the receiving end of that. But hey, that's how it goes sometimes, and if you modify the arena just for that reason, well I don't like it. Same goes for a wizard. I think the best solution for this would be 1: using the random starting locations. This way, I can't say, move to this precise position and shoot at this square. 2: Require a spot check to even be able to notice the opponent at the start position. Well I'm loosing my train of thought. I just thought I should say something since Rayos keeps coming up, I think unfairly. |
| Zerone05-13-05, 01:58 AM | Well spoken Kaigan... That is kind of where I was trying to get to... I just digressed a little :D. We definitely don’t want to chase people away and we don’t want to make the Pitlords job any harder than it is… I like the arena the way it is, just wish there were more shadowy areas to hide out in, because right now there are no quality places to hide vs. anyone. Perhaps we should just try 4 random starting locations for now and see if we like the change. Then either keep it, let it go, or modify it and then incorporate something else to try out if it's not enough. I suggest 1 change at a time and then a vote on it? *•. Z |
| Caterane05-13-05, 03:10 AM | @Kaigan: - we cannot make the arena equal for every build - we cannot and don't want to prevent 1st round kills but diminish them - we need more hiding places for rogues These three aims lead to the random starting positions, the new obstacles block LOS to all positions until you move a bit, and they also help rogues. That said, I think we're indeed taking it too far. We should try using these new modifications and see how it goes. It will definately make 1st round kills more difficult but far from impossible. And these modifications don't make combat more difficult. The central obstacle hasn't been a pitlording problem neither will the new ones be. @Spash: Quickened Dimension door at level 7? First of all, you cannot act after dimension door so I don't see why using this to get closer to the fighter should help. And a Lesser Quickening Rod costs 35.000 gp. No way are you or anyone else going to own such an item. Not even before level 12. And finally, lesser quicken rods only work for level 1-3, not 4 like dimension door. @Jindl: Hiding as a prebuff is something we cannot allow. I've explained it once in a long post (don't want to write it up again). Think of the effects. Everyone would use exotic ways to hide which makes him basically invisible on round 1, would make hide the most important skill, and the distance modifier helps to make sure you stay hidden. This is definately the wrong way. The modifications on the arena grant you cover on round 1, the opponoment doesn't know where you are, and the distance is 100 ft longer. These are things we haven't had before. A single cover inside the box is also a bit artificial. Every gladiator would start behind cover and this is not true for real campaigns. |
| spasheridan05-13-05, 04:06 AM | @Kaigan: - we cannot make the arena equal for every build - we cannot and don't want to prevent 1st round kills but diminish them - we need more hiding places for rogues These three aims lead to the random starting positions, the new obstacles block LOS to all positions until you move a bit, and they also help rogues. Blocking LOS but leaving LOE is just a nerf archers but nothing to casters change. You either block LOE or you leave it as is so it's fair. And sorry... who knew that quicken rods were so expensive. 36k just for the lesser? Wow! I guess the quickened teleports are at least level 9 or 11 then for schism / dimension slide combos. Anywho, IMO the 4 random starting locations is a bad idea for 1 v 1 fights but a perfect idea for multiple combatants. Like I said before random locations either makes no tactical change or it encorages 1st round kills.. ergo it does the opposite of what we want. Having a starting box or area does have tactical considerations that make it more under player control so I like that idea. spasheridan, do you have an exact idea as to what could better the arena? I'm a tinkerer. I look at the arena as is and wonder how we can tinker with it. IMO there are 2 areas to improve the arena right now.. 1- 1-shot items are to good 2- 1st round kills are lame This thread isnt about 1-shot items, so enough about that. 1st round kills are what this thread is about. IMO a 1st round kill is just about the lamest fight in the world. If I was watching a fight like that and had paid good money to see it I would want my money back. I would hate the gladiator who did it. The vendors in the stands wouldn't have enough time to get bets... all in all a horrible set up. Currently the 1st round kill is based on the aggressor's action. I would like to push the 1st round kill to be based on the defenders action. the teleport start would still allow the aggressor to attempt the 1st round kill but it would be the defenders action that triggered it. The defender has the opportunity to avoid the 1st round kill in my scenario by wisely choosing their 1st action. At the very least each gladiator would get 1 action before it ended. And the only fights my change would have ANY impact on would be fights that there was an attempted 1st round kill. If neither gladiators attempts to shoot / nuke / slash their opponent on rnd 1 then there is absolutely no differance between my suggestion and the current environment. See.. that's what I like. Small changes. Incremental change.. tinkering. SImple, blanket rules that are easy to remember and implement. No exceptions to them... Well, I'm sure I've made my point by now so I'll stop repeating myself. I do have one last comment though... If the elders decide to make a change we really need to give the community more than a day or 2 to become aware of the new map. I'd ask that we wait at least 1 week before deciding to make the change and implementing it. Maybe just run a few test fights in the new pit so any questions can get ironed out before the general population starts using it. |
| Caterane05-13-05, 05:36 AM | Spash, for the third time: this is unfair. Fighter drinks potion of invisibility, no wait, wizard has perm.see invisibility, ok, he drinks stoneskin or another insanely expensive potion that can be easily dispelled. The wizard buffs with time stop. Or Mislead. Or any other high level spell, or two because he now definately has a quickened rod or the feat. Free prebuffs are not going to happen. I have seen enough highlevel fights here. You haven't. Please trust me on that. The arena we have so far isn't bad. It does not need a complete turn-over. We add some obstacles, increase the distance, and create starting boxes. That improves the "not bad" arena. IF and only IF we still need to do something about well...something, then we can discuss this but let's take small steps. |
| Cerebus1305-13-05, 08:05 AM | PS: If your mount moves, you move. The only exception is that you can make one single attack while mounted even if you double move. Rapid shot is a fullattack, therefore - let's call him Mr.R. - needs to use the manyshot attack. See Rules of the Game: All about Mounts.This is slightly inaccurate regarding ranged attacks: Full Ranged Attack: You can make a full ranged attack from your moving mount. If your mount makes a single move, you make all your ranged attacks either before or after the movement, and the rules assume your mount is stationary when you shoot. If your mount makes a double move, you can still make a full ranged attack, but you're shooting while the mount is moving and you take a -4 penalty on your attack roll. If your mount runs, you take a -8 penalty on ranged attacks. In either case, you make all your attack rolls when your mount has completed half its movement for the turn.The rules are a bit mucky here on how to handle things but as Jindl said before he saw it as: You may combine a move action from your horse with at least a move action from yourself. Thus a Full Round action (which can be a move) can be combined with a single or double move action while mounted. |
| Jindl05-13-05, 10:13 AM | @Kaigan - Just so you know, I wasn't picking on Rayos at all. My complaints with the fight were resolved when Rayos succeeded at a spot check to locate the Elder. What the fight did was illustrate 2 issues with the arena that I want changed: 1. I want pc's to have a number of possible starting locations which leads to the starting box idea. This is to correct the metagame knowledge of your opponents exact starting position, when your pc has yet to succeed at a spot check to locate them. 2. I want characters to be able to begin under the effects of the hide skill (because I think it is much more realistic to a campaign). This would require high speed characters to also have good senses (high spot/listen or other methods of locating their opponent). The incorporation of new types of fights, which require multiple starting positions capable of handling 4 or more pc's should be much more of a reason for the changes being made. @Cat - When I get a bit more time, I'll try to get up a discussion with you about hiding as a prebuff, and why I think it both mimics a real campaign and is good for LG. As yet I've not properly responded to your long post from before. :D @Spash - I do agree with Cat on the blocking of LOE at the beginning. Having seen and participated in quite a few high level fights, I can tell you that the caster will gain a much greater benefit from your "starting bunker" idea than the noncaster. Even at low levels this will be true. In Elder vs Rayos, for example, Rayos would have had to wait for the Elder to leave his starting position before firing. The Elder could easily have manifested an overchannelled vigor for +20 hp, then left his starting position and moved behind cover. There's no way Rayos could have killed him before his next turn, which would involve the use of invisibility. From there, Rayos's chances would get really slim. I think Zerone was trying to illustrate this concept, that noncasters are usually at their strongest in Rnd 1, while casters are usually at their strongest after 2-3 rounds. Blocking LOE at the start just makes it easier for casters to get to Rnd 3. -Jindl |
| Kaigan05-13-05, 10:18 AM | @Cat: I agree with everything you said, well mostly everything. The only concern I have, is that we are moving way too fast. You just implemented the different types of arena fights available, and now we are modifying the arena, and soon we will be creating more arenas to possibly fight in. To me this is too fast, let things come one at a time. |
| Pitlords05-13-05, 10:31 AM | Kaigan, the new arena map is necessary for the new arena fight types. Just adding 2 additional starting positions north and south wouldn't have worked because you can see 2 positions from the start and the distance is much shorter (you could even charge on round 1) without adding any obstacles. And coincidently this is what we wanted to do anyway plus it helps the rogue. In Germany we have a saying: "Hit 2 flies with one fly swatter". I think the appropriate US idiom would be "kill 2 birds with one storm". ;) Edit: The other 3 arenas need to be made so this takes time. |
| spasheridan05-13-05, 11:21 AM | Spash, for the third time: this is unfair. But.. you said you plan to have some kind of LOS block in the starting area. Walls for the starting box or fog in the starting area.. Blocking LOS stops archers / fighters from attacking the mage. The mage get's his free turn. Blocking LOS does not stop fireballs from nuking the fighter, the fighter does not get a free turn. SO.. how is this fair? IF you block LOS turn 1 then you MUST block LOE on turn 1. |
| Cerebus1305-13-05, 09:47 PM | @Megrim_Lord Will this work? I used Yellow Green coloring to indicate the starting box area, but I could change it to a different character instead to make it more visible. x 3 2 1 - + 1 2 3 y 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 30 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 9 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 8 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 7 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 6 w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O C O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w 5 w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O 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w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w 5 w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w 6 w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O D O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w 7 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 8 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 9 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 30 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w x 3 2 1 - + 1 2 3 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 Legend: w: wall O: arena floor O: arena floor, starting box @: column to the ceiling §: big rock A, B, C, D: starting squares |
| Pitlords05-14-05, 05:17 AM | @Megrim_Lord Will this work? I used Yellow Green coloring to indicate the starting box area, but I could change it to a different character instead to make it more visible. x 3 2 1 - + 1 2 3 y 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 30 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 9 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 8 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 7 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 6 w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O C O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w 5 w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w 4 w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w 3 w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w 2 w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O O O O O O O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w 1 w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w 20 w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w 9 w w w w w O O O O O O O O O @ @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ @ O O O O O O O O O w w w w w 8 w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w 7 w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w 6 w w w w O O O O O O O @ O O O @ O O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O O @ O O O @ O O O O O O O w w w w 5 w w w O O O O O O O O @ O O @ @ @ O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O @ @ @ O O @ O O O O O O O O w w w 4 w w w O O O O O O O O @ O O O @ O O O @ O O O O O O O § O O O O O § O O O O O O O @ O O O @ O O O @ O O O O O O O O w w w 3 w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 0 O O O w w 2 w w O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O w w 1 w w O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O w w 10 w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 0 O O O O O w 9 w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 0 O O O O O w 8 w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 0 O O O O O w 7 w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 0 O O O O O w 6 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 0 O O O O O O O 5 O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O 4 O O O O § O O O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O O O § O O O O 3 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 2 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O -1 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 0 O O O O A O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O @ @ @ O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O B O O O O +1 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 2 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 3 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 4 O O O O § O O O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O O O § O O O O 5 O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O 6 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 7 w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w 8 w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w 9 w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w 10 w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w 1 w w O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O w w 2 w w O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O w w 3 w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w 4 w w w O O O O O O O O @ O O O @ O O O @ O O O O O O O § O O O O O § O O O O O O O @ O O O @ O O O @ O O O O O O O O w w w 5 w w w O O O O O O O O @ O O @ @ @ O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O @ @ @ O O @ O O O O O O O O w w w 6 w w w w O O O O O O O @ O O O @ O O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O O @ O O O @ O O O O O O O w w w w 7 w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w 8 w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w 9 w w w w w O O O O O O O O O @ @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ @ O O O O O O O O O w w w w w 20 w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w 1 w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w 2 w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O O O O O O O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w 3 w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w 4 w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w 5 w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w 6 w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O D O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w 7 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 8 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 9 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 30 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w x 3 2 1 - + 1 2 3 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 Legend: w: wall O: arena floor O: arena floor, starting box @: column to the ceiling §: big rock A, B, C, D: starting squares @Cerebus: :love: :love: :love: :love: :cloud9: Thank you so much!!! I'll give you 2° for that and the gratitute of the CoCo. |
| Cerebus1305-14-05, 10:12 AM | Pffft, I drew it for him :P |