Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LLMadCow 01-15-06, 02:57 PM	Ask An Elder Do you have a question without an answer? Do you have an answer to a question, but everyone is telling you that you are wrong? Do you think that someone is trying to 'pull a fast one' and break the rules of D&D or the CoCo? Do you need help with just about anything in the CoCo? Well, if you answered yes to any of the above questions, then this is the place for you! I, LLMadCow, will be here to answer any and all questions. Yes, ALL questions. I've been around the CoCo for ages and I have been quite instrumental in fair bit of things that have transpired within the CoCo. The CoCo has new rules that come into play from time to time and there are always going to be new RAW and RAI to be debated. Some issues may be discussed with Caterane, but for the majority of the questions, I should be answering them without needing to talk to him. I am creating this thread in an attempt to optimize the time that I have available for the CoCo. Sometimes life gets a bit hectic, but I always want to be able to help in any way I can. Since there is quite a bit that goes on in the CoCo Tavern, I do not always have the time to pour over everything. I will still be reading the Tavern and the Prison, but this thread is to ensure that I do not accidently overlook anything. This is where you can bring things directly to me, link to current debates and ask for my input. Caterane has quite a bit on his plate, and I will be able to resolve quite a few things with relative ease. Now that I have your interest, let's move on to... Rules and Guidelines For the most part, this is going to be a rather free-form thread. There are a few simple things that I ask to ensure that this runs as smoothly and efficiently as possible. If the question is currently being discussed, please name the thread that the debate/discussion is taking place. When referencing a currently ongoing debate, please link to the original location of the debate. Please list the names of the parties involved and a summary of sides taken, using quotes as appropriate. If another elder has weighed in on the topic, please let me know. Always try to be polite and courteous; I will try to be polite and courteous to all. If you have to resort to name calling, please call me LLMC, LLMadCow, The Mad One, LLPL, PrisonLords or perhaps Brian. Occasionally edit your initial post, to add new info and cover all the bases. Please do not hold an active debate in this thread; I will give a reply here and also in the thread where the debate is taking place. Have fun, ask whatever and be ready for anything! LLMadCow aka Prisonlords Note: Remember, feedback is always welcome. Disclaimer: As always, Caterane has the final decision when it comes to any rulings that I make, since he and I do not always see things eye-to-eye. As new rules, new RAW and new RAI come into play, some of my rulings may have to be revised or re-examined; if this is the case, some rulings may be changed or over-ruled. I will always do my best to work with what we have available.
Cerebus13 01-16-06, 10:56 AM	What does the immunity to sleep ability that elves have apply to exactly? a) Magic Sleep effects (as per the Race entry). b) Sleep spells and effects (which effects??) (as per the Monster entry). c) other
Cerebus13 01-16-06, 04:42 PM	Can a gladiator with levels in both a casting and a manifesting class hold the charge for a touch spell and still be free to manifest psionic powers? (or vice versa with a touch psionic power?)
Pittbull 01-16-06, 05:10 PM	Ok, here's my input: Sleep: I'd give the monster entry higher priority, but I don't have any rule-source. That means Elves are immune to any kind of sleep-effect. Holding the charge: Since psionic power are handled like spell-like abilities, you lose the charge, because of: A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell. and Holding the Charge If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
Luni 01-16-06, 05:22 PM	What does the immunity to sleep ability that elves have apply to exactly? a) Magic Sleep effects (as per the Race entry). b) Sleep spells and effects (which effects??) (as per the Monster entry). c) other I can answer this one. When you find a disagreement between two D&D rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees. A monster’s statistics block supersedes the descriptive text. Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player’s Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for PC races, and the base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master’s Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player’s Handbook, you should assume the Player’s Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master’s Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities. Since elves are a PC race, the Players Handbook is right, and the MM wrong. My question: Can invisible gladiators read scrolls?
Pittbull 01-16-06, 05:29 PM	My question: Can invisible gladiators read scrolls? Invisibility is a illusion. Illusion Illusion spells deceive the senses or minds of others. They cause people to see things that are not there, not see things that are there, hear phantom noises, or remember things that never happened. You can see your stuff, but others cannot see you.
Maraxus 01-16-06, 05:53 PM	I present you the great, unanswered question of D&D: Holw long does a pin last? - Only as long as the immobilization, which is one round. - Untill it is broken by the opponent. (There is no clear answer, neither clear RAW, nor clear RAI. RAW is proven unclear, RAI ... number 1 is more balanced but I would guess it is 2, if I had to. Relevant rules sections: ->Combat->Grapple: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple) Pin Your Opponent You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round by winning an opposed grapple check (made in place of an attack). Once you have an opponent pinned, you have a few options available to you If You’re Pinning an Opponent You can attempt (...) to move the grapple (a standart action) If You’re Pinned by an Opponent When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While you’re pinned, you take a -4 penalty to your AC against opponents other than the one pinning you. At your opponent’s option, you may also be unable to speak. On your turn, you can try to escape the pin by making an opposed grapple check ... ->Condition Summary->pinned (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#pinned) Held immobile (but not helpless) in a grapple. So the arguments are, that the combat section does not expicitly say, that the pin last one round, it say the opponent is immobole for 1 round. And you have some additional options. It also sais, that you can move the grapple as a standart action (even with a special +4 bonus), but if you pin your opponent (with an attack action) and this only lasts 1 turn, you will never be able to take this option. On the other hand, the condition summary equalls pinned with held immobile, and the combat section does not expicitly say otherwise. It even reads that way on the first and second look, too. Plus, it is much more balanced.)
Usurpator 01-16-06, 07:03 PM	Hide rules: You can hide if you are within ranks = feet of any place that gives you cover or concealment. How it the distance calculated? 1. The actual distance used (like with spells or missile fire). 2. The distance calculated 'as if you were moving', meaning that hiding near a corner only works if you have 10 ranks of Hide, and in difficult terrain also requires 10 ranks to use a place within 5 ft. to hide (since difficult terrain halves movement).
LLMadCow 01-17-06, 12:20 AM	Hey gang! I think it is awesome that people have found and have a desire to ask questions. I PROMISE to reply to every question. It is now just past midnight and I just walked in the door. I am going to begin finding answers and do what I can to answer a few, if not all, of them tonight. Please be patient and know that I always have the most time on the weekends, but I will be checking this several times a week. LLMC
NiQil 01-17-06, 12:53 AM	Two questions.. Q: If a character chose an animal template for Lycanthropy that had wings, would the character gain wings (and equivalent flight speed) when in Hybrid form? Q: Are PP gained from the Body Fuel feat subject to the 1/3 rule? (relevant to this fight, where the feat was used in combination with characters available PP reserve to summon five astral constructs at 3 PP a pop, which strikes me as a touch overpowered for ECL 3.)
LLMadCow 01-17-06, 01:11 AM	What does the immunity to sleep ability that elves have apply to exactly? a) Magic Sleep effects (as per the Race entry). b) Sleep spells and effects (which effects??) (as per the Monster entry). c) other This is a good question. I can understand the confusion. It would be awesome if WotC made things more uniform, but sometimes they don't. That being said, let's take a stab at it. The immediate spells that come to mind are: Sleep Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting] Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 round Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Area: One or more living creatures within a 10-ft.-radius burst Duration: 1 min./level Saving Throw: Will negates Spell Resistance: Yes A sleep spell causes a magical slumber to come upon 4 Hit Dice of creatures. Creatures with the fewest HD are affected first. Among creatures with equal HD, those who are closest to the spell’s point of origin are affected first. Hit Dice that are not sufficient to affect a creature are wasted. Sleeping creatures are helpless. Slapping or wounding awakens an affected creature, but normal noise does not. Awakening a creature is a standard action (an application of the aid another action). Sleep does not target unconscious creatures, constructs, or undead creatures. Material Component: A pinch of fine sand, rose petals, or a live cricket. AND Deep Slumber Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting] Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3 Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) This spell functions like sleep, except that it affects 10 HD of creatures. AND Symbol of Sleep Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting] Level: Clr 5, Sor/Wiz 5 Saving Throw: Will negates This spell functions like symbol of death, except that all creatures of 10 HD or less within 60 feet of the symbol of sleep instead fall into a catatonic slumber for 3d6x10 minutes. Unlike with the sleep spell, sleeping creatures cannot be awakened by nonmagical means before this time expires. Unlike symbol of death, symbol of sleep has no hit point limit; once triggered, a symbol of sleep simply remains active for 10 minutes per caster level. Note: Magic traps such as symbol of sleep are hard to detect and disable. A rogue (only) can use the Search skill to find a symbol of sleep and Disable Device to thwart it. The DC in each case is 25 + spell level, or 30 for symbol of sleep. Material Component: Mercury and phosphorus, plus powdered diamond and opal with a total value of at least 1,000 gp. So, to start with, elves are immune to all of the above spells. Now, taking this a step further, elves are immune to the effects of any magical item that is based off of any of the above spells; this includes such things as: Sleep Arrows and a Wand of Sleep. Pixies have arrows that are described like this: Sleep: Any opponent struck by this arrow, regardless of Hit Dice, must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or be affected as though by a sleep spell. The save DC is Charisma-based and includes a +2 racial bonus. Since the arrows say "or be affected as though by a sleep spell," then we can also include this as one more thing elves are immune. So, if any creature has any kind of ability that causes sleep and is described as "or be affected as though by a sleep spell," then we can be sure that elves are going to be ammune to it. With the way we are handling the Magic/Psionic relationship in the CoCo, any psionic version of sleep would be equal to a magic spell and therefore, elves would be immune to any psionic sleep. Now, let's take a look at the poison that the drow use..... Poison (Ex): An opponent hit by a drow’s poisoned weapon must succeed on a DC 13 Fortitude save or fall unconscious. After 1 minute, the subject must succeed on another DC 13 Fortitude save or remain unconscious for 2d4 hours. A typical drow carries 1d4–1 doses of drow knockout poison. Drow typically coat arrows and crossbow bolts with this poison, but it can also be applied to a melee weapon. Note that drow have no special ability to apply poison without risking being poisoned themselves. Since this poison is not a magical effect, drow and other elves are susceptible to it. Please pay attention to the portion I bolded at the end. This is an alchemical application of sleep and it DOES work on elves. Now, going on the extrapolation of elves being vulnerable to the Drow poison, we can also assume that other poisons will be effective as well; Oil of Taggit, Drow Poison & Blue Whinnis would all be effective ways to attempt to force elves into a slumber. So, in summary: Magic, Psionics and things that function like Magic or Psionics DO NOT work against elves. Poisons and Alchemically based effects will cause elves to sleep. Make sense? LLMC
LLMadCow 01-17-06, 01:29 AM	Can a gladiator with levels in both a casting and a manifesting class hold the charge for a touch spell and still be free to manifest psionic powers? (or vice versa with a touch psionic power?) Since the CoCo is treating Magic and Psionics as equal, then any attempt to cast a spell or manifest a power would cause the initial charge to dissapate. LLMC
LLMadCow 01-17-06, 01:32 AM	My question: Can invisible gladiators read scrolls? Yes, invisible gladiators can read scrolls. (Pitbull did an excellent job of answerwing this question, thanks.) LLMC
NiQil 01-17-06, 01:36 AM	Since the CoCo is treating Magic and Psionics as equal, then any attempt to hold another charge, psionic or magical, would cause the initial charge to dissapate. LLMC This only partially answered the question. What about manifesting a power that is not going to be held when holding a spell charge (or vice versa)? Can you, for instance, hold the charge of a spell and then manifest force screen? Or hold a charge of a power and then cast mage armor?
LLMadCow 01-17-06, 01:46 AM	I present you the great, unanswered question of D&D: Holw long does a pin last? - Only as long as the immobilization, which is one round. - Untill it is broken by the opponent. (There is no clear answer, neither clear RAW, nor clear RAI. RAW is proven unclear, RAI ... number 1 is more balanced but I would guess it is 2, if I had to. Relevant rules sections: ->Combat->Grapple: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple) Pin Your Opponent You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round by winning an opposed grapple check (made in place of an attack). Once you have an opponent pinned, you have a few options available to you If You’re Pinning an Opponent You can attempt (...) to move the grapple (a standart action) If You’re Pinned by an Opponent When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While you’re pinned, you take a -4 penalty to your AC against opponents other than the one pinning you. At your opponent’s option, you may also be unable to speak. On your turn, you can try to escape the pin by making an opposed grapple check ... ->Condition Summary->pinned (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#pinned) Held immobile (but not helpless) in a grapple. So the arguments are, that the combat section does not expicitly say, that the pin last one round, it say the opponent is immobole for 1 round. And you have some additional options. It also sais, that you can move the grapple as a standart action (even with a special +4 bonus), but if you pin your opponent (with an attack action) and this only lasts 1 turn, you will never be able to take this option. On the other hand, the condition summary equalls pinned with held immobile, and the combat section does not expicitly say otherwise. It even reads that way on the first and second look, too. Plus, it is much more balanced.) Okay, let's analyze the issue of Pins. Another good question. A pin lasts one round, but can be maintained each round with a successful grapple check. The person pinned can break the pin by succeeding in a grapple check, an escape artist check, or by the pinner failing their check to maintain the pin. Once the pin is broken, however, both parties are still considered grappling. So, if you are pinned, it will take two successful grapple checks to break totally free and be able to function again. Does this make sense? LLMC
LLMadCow 01-17-06, 01:56 AM	Hide rules: You can hide if you are within ranks = feet of any place that gives you cover or concealment. How it the distance calculated? 1. The actual distance used (like with spells or missile fire). 2. The distance calculated 'as if you were moving', meaning that hiding near a corner only works if you have 10 ranks of Hide, and in difficult terrain also requires 10 ranks to use a place within 5 ft. to hide (since difficult terrain halves movement). This is one of those questions that is a bit unclear, but I am going to rule in this manner: The ACTUAL distance is what matters. The issue with terrain is establishing that it may impede movement, however since your ability to hide is not based on speed or distance moved during a round, this is of little importance. One could run around a column, and as long as they stay within the 10 feet of the column, as allowed by their hide rank of 10, then they can attempt to hide. LLMC
Maraxus 01-17-06, 07:00 AM	Okay, let's analyze the issue of Pins. Another good question. A pin lasts one round, but can be maintained each round with a successful grapple check. The person pinned can break the pin by succeeding in a grapple check, an escape artist check, or by the pinner failing their check to maintain the pin. Once the pin is broken, however, both parties are still considered grappling. So, if you are pinned, it will take two successful grapple checks to break totally free and be able to function again. Does this make sense? LLMC I guess with "maintained each round with a successful grapple check" you mean "in place of one attack action each round", right? In that case the standart actions, that are allowed while pinning your opponent make no sense (especially the "move grapple" any other could be taken when you grapple an opponent with a friend that does the pin, but in that case you have to pin your opponent yourself). Your interpretation also has something that is not said in the rules but looks good to me: That the opponent does not get a moment, where he is "unpinned" between the end of the immobilisation and your action. Basicly, this should have no effect at all since the ready action is not allowed while being pinned ("I ready to cast dimension door, once I can speak again"), so the only case where this could matter is, when someone outside readies on it - but why should one?
lonewolf 01-17-06, 07:46 AM	If I hit my enemy with a weapon with the dislocator or greater dislocator weapon enchantments, will he lose the match because of the 10 round rule? If not: How should the battle proceed?
LLMadCow 01-17-06, 10:41 AM	I guess with "maintained each round with a successful grapple check" you mean "in place of one attack action each round", right? In that case the standart actions, that are allowed while pinning your opponent make no sense (especially the "move grapple" any other could be taken when you grapple an opponent with a friend that does the pin, but in that case you have to pin your opponent yourself). Your interpretation also has something that is not said in the rules but looks good to me: That the opponent does not get a moment, where he is "unpinned" between the end of the immobilisation and your action. Basicly, this should have no effect at all since the ready action is not allowed while being pinned ("I ready to cast dimension door, once I can speak again"), so the only case where this could matter is, when someone outside readies on it - but why should one? Pinning an opponent is good if you have multiple actions in a round as well as when you have additional combatants who can then easily strike the pinned subject. LLMC
DTFarstar 01-17-06, 10:55 AM	From what I understand, the current ruling on scrolls is that they cannot be used with the Share Spells and Deliver Touch Spells ability of a familiar because they are "activations" not "castings" of said spells. However, Determine Effect A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. Assume the scroll spell’s caster level is always the minimum level required to cast the spell for the character who scribed the scroll (usually twice the spell’s level, minus 1), unless the caster specifically desires otherwise. The writing for an activated spell disappears from the scroll. so why does this not extend to allowing it to be shared or allowing your familiar to touch with it for you? I would really appreciate an explanation on this one. (this question comes from here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=8252395#post8252395) and currently involves me, Ursurpator, and Dracazar about their battle this week. So a speedy answer would be great)
Usurpator 01-17-06, 01:33 PM	Question about Rewards from the CoCo Rules: How does a Pitlord calculate the XP and gp. rewards gladiators get from defeating multiple monsters in an arena fight? 1. You calculate the rewards for each monster individually (the Caterane school of thought). 2. You calculate the rewards for the encounter as a whole (the King Uther school of thought). Examples: Tezca (ECL7) defeats in the arena: A. 4 Duergar (CR 3 each, EL 7 total) B. 1 Hill Giant (CR 7 each, EL 7 total) 1. Rewards according to the Caterane school of thought: A. 2100 XP and 3600 gp. B. 2100 XP and 2600 gp. 2. Rewards according to the King Uther school of thought: A. 2100 XP and 2600 gp. B. 2100 XP and 2600 gp. Pitlords have used both calculations in the past, about a 50/50 divide. Obviously, characters who had Pitlords that used calculation 1 have received a monetary advantage versus others. And that advantage can get quite big, in the example shown, those who had calculation 1 applied received 38% more gold.
Pittbull 01-17-06, 02:54 PM	As we know, nondection works against see invisible. Does the psionic power escape dectection work against see invisible too?
SauroGrenom 01-17-06, 03:02 PM	What equipment slots are available on a psycrystal?
SauroGrenom 01-17-06, 03:09 PM	Since Psionics and Magic are so very transparent, is it possable to craft/aquire psionic versions of various items that modify magical prowess. For example can a character buy a psionic version of the Orange Ioun Stone that grants a +1ML. Or could a character buy/craft rods of metapsionics? Or is it possible to make a psionic version of a ring of wizardry? If so would these items cost credits?
King Uther 01-17-06, 04:46 PM	Psionic versions of items could be created since there is a model to do so, but since they are not a normal magic item listed in the Core books, it would cost credits to produce them.
Snommelp 01-17-06, 10:28 PM	Since this came up in a recent fight and must needs be clarified for future fights: how lenient should a pitlord be with "meaningful interaction" concerning the 10-round rule? If one character is getting shot at roughly once every nine rounds or so, but does not react except to move away, is that still meaningful interaction? And another: when doubling the price of a weapon to make it cold-iron, how much do you double? Base price, Masterwork price, Size modifiers, other?
King Uther 01-17-06, 10:42 PM	Meaningful interaction is a difficult subject. Standing completely still and allowing yourself to get shot is a fair tactic. It would be unfair for me to make you get shot because every 9 rounds you have to chase me despite having superior movement. Being defensive is sometimes your only option. In the case of that fight meaningful interaction occurred. It was a battle of skill. Skill in defense vs offense. The 10-round rule is in place to prevent campers. People who sit still, undetectable, to outlast any buffs so they can buff and win. It keeps everything fair. Perhaps we need a more in-depth look at the 10-round rule. If you need more than this, Snommelp, PM me or we can talk via IM if you prefer. Cold Iron: Let's use the example of a [Ma]Large Cold Iron Greatsword. A greatsword costs 50gp. Large size it doubles to 100gp. Cold Iron makes it 200(doubling the actual weapon cost). Then you add masterwork, enchantments, etc...
SauroGrenom 01-17-06, 10:54 PM	How does the CoCo handle the Anti-Magic Field (AMF)? This effect can get realy confusing with regard to reach weapons and ranged attacks and area efects. Here are a few examples: If a large sized creature is the target of an antimagic field, then it can wield a glaive and its reach is long enough to extend beyond the AMF area. Will a magical glaive wielded by the creature have normal effect on those it hits, and can the monster claim the enhancement bonus on attacks made with the weapon? Also AMF is an emination, so does it have a radius of 10' from the edge of the creature or 10' from the center of the creature? How do ranged attacks with magical weapons resolve against an opponent within an AMF or from an AMF? Do attacks from magical bows still enjoy there enhancement bonus or other special effects when targeted into an AMF? What about the powers of magical arrows? How about if a magical arrow is fired from inside an AMF?
Vathelokai 01-18-06, 07:39 AM	From what I understand, the current ruling on scrolls is that they cannot be used with the Share Spells and Deliver Touch Spells ability of a familiar because they are "activations" not "castings" of said spells. However, Determine Effect A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. Assume the scroll spell’s caster level is always the minimum level required to cast the spell for the character who scribed the scroll (usually twice the spell’s level, minus 1), unless the caster specifically desires otherwise. The writing for an activated spell disappears from the scroll. so why does this not extend to allowing it to be shared or allowing your familiar to touch with it for you? I would really appreciate an explanation on this one. (this question comes from here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=8252395#post8252395) and currently involves me, Ursurpator, and Dracazar about their battle this week. So a speedy answer would be great) The current rule comes from a "Rules of the game: familiars" article that says you cannot share spells that come from magic items; any magic item. Since the share spells rules are very skimpy, they do need some clarification. If it gets changed, somebody PM me, so I can update the TAO rules post.
Vathelokai 01-18-06, 07:41 AM	What equipment slots are available on a psycrystal? And what about other non bipeds? Horses? Krenshar? Dragons? There are some non core sources for this, but how should we deal with it?
LLMadCow 01-18-06, 08:07 AM	Q: If a character chose an animal template for Lycanthropy that had wings, would the character gain wings (and equivalent flight speed) when in Hybrid form? Speed: Same as the base creature or base animal, depending on which form the lycanthrope is using. Hybrids use the base creature’s speed. If the base creature has the ability to fly, then yes, the hybrid form can fly. If the base creature cannot fly, then the hybrid cannot fly. A Human Were-Bat in hybrid form cannot fly. Right off hand, I cannot think of ANY Humanoid or Giant that can fly. So, my inclination is to say that no hybrid lycanthrope can fly. Q: Are PP gained from the Body Fuel feat subject to the 1/3 rule? (relevant to this fight, where the feat was used in combination with characters available PP reserve to summon five astral constructs at 3 PP a pop, which strikes me as a touch overpowered for ECL 3.) When looking at the feat Body Fuel and the magical item Pearl of Power, this is how you have to look at it. Gartleheim the Psion has 30 PP to his name, allowing him to use 10 PP during any given battle and an additional 10 to use as pre-buff. So, as long as he has [20 PP - (PP spent on pre-buffs)] as a reserve, everything else is fair game. Gartleheim has nothing that he is going to pre-buff, so he must always have a reserve of 20PP for the entire fight. During the course of the fight, uses all 10PP and cannot use any more. Then he uses Body Fuel to get a few points back. Now, since he has more than 20, he can start using them again. The Pearl of Power works in similar manner. Otherwise, the CoCo would end up forcing people to buy 4 pearls to cast 2 spells. Make sense?
LLMadCow 01-18-06, 08:38 AM	If I hit my enemy with a weapon with the dislocator or greater dislocator weapon enchantments, will he lose the match because of the 10 round rule? If not: How should the battle proceed? This question may have to have some more discussion. My feeling is that 18,000 is a bit cheap for the power of the weapon. True Strike + 18,000gp and you can win many fights. This reminds me of the discussion on the spell Maze, but Maze is going to be cast by a 15th level wizard. Dislocator is going to be bought by a 7th level PC? Crafted sooner, perhaps? A bit strong. I will let you know more in time. Investigation first.
Cerebus13 01-18-06, 08:39 AM	The Pearl of Power works in similar manner. Otherwise, the CoCo would end up forcing people to buy 4 pearls to cast 2 spells. Make sense?Erm, this is in direct contradiction to what Caterane has said in another thread. Which ruling should we follow with Pearls of Power? 1) You can only use them to recall and cast a spell you have already cast. 2) You can use them to restore a previously cast spells but you do not have to cast the same spell restored with it. Same example as you did with PPs: if you have 30 spell levels you simply have to maintain a minimum of (20 - prebuffs) spell levels at all times.
LLMadCow 01-18-06, 08:57 AM	From what I understand, the current ruling on scrolls is that they cannot be used with the Share Spells and Deliver Touch Spells ability of a familiar because they are "activations" not "castings" of said spells. However, Determine Effect A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. Assume the scroll spell’s caster level is always the minimum level required to cast the spell for the character who scribed the scroll (usually twice the spell’s level, minus 1), unless the caster specifically desires otherwise. The writing for an activated spell disappears from the scroll. so why does this not extend to allowing it to be shared or allowing your familiar to touch with it for you? I would really appreciate an explanation on this one. (this question comes from here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=8252395#post8252395) and currently involves me, Ursurpator, and Dracazar about their battle this week. So a speedy answer would be great) Okay, this is easy enough to answer. The difference between activation and casting is this: Casting is when a Wizard/Cleric/Etc ... casts a spell. Activation is when a Wizard/Cleric/Etc activates an item and the item casts the spell. The spell functions the same as always, but the familiar is not the familiar of the scroll. Yes, there is the issue of why do personal spells still work. Well, personal spells are directed towards the person in possession of the scroll, since the scroll is unable to be the target of an personal spell, short of being an animated object scroll. :) Make sense?
LLMadCow 01-18-06, 09:06 AM	Erm, this is in direct contradiction to what Caterane has said in another thread. Which ruling should we follow with Pearls of Power? 1) You can only use them to recall and cast a spell you have already cast. 2) You can use them to restore a previously cast spells but you do not have to cast the same spell restored with it. Same example as you did with PPs: if you have 30 spell levels you simply have to maintain a minimum of (20 - prebuffs) spell levels at all times. Okay, hang in there for another day or so. This is an area where he and I may not see eye-to-eye. Let me discuss it with him before you go ahead with this. There are key issues with wording and understanding of wording. This is only an issue because of the 1/3 rule, but we have to have some amount of concensus. The problem really comes in with the fact that the rules were never written with the intent of only have 1/3 to cast, but actually have everything to cast. So, as a Wizard, if you used a PoP you would only be able to recast that spell since you have a fixed group of spells. However, when taken into context of the CoCo, and the only having 1/3 available, you are more like a Sorcerer - "I could cast Magic Missile, Shield or Enlarge Person. Which will it be?" In a regular game casting MM would leave you with Shield and Enlarge Person. So, using a PoP simply returns the MM, allowing it to be used again. In the CoCo, using a PoP returns you to the status of having 3 spells memorized and being allowed to cast one of them. See the issue. Let me hammer this one out some more. A fight may have to be held over for a final ruling. Sorry.
Macbrea 01-18-06, 09:12 AM	Another issue with just allowing free play with PoP to remember is just allowing spell point system can result in silly effects. Druid Spells Memorized [4 / 3 / 2 / - / - / - / - / - / - / -] [Total Spell Levels/Day: 7; Cast: 3] 0 [DC (13)] Guidance, Guidance, Cure minor wound, Cure Minor wound 1 [DC (14)] Entangle, Cure Light Wounds, Obscuring mist 2 [DC (15)] Spider climb, Chill Metal Druid has Pearl of Power (2nd level) . SP 3/3: Druid casts Chill metal on opponent. SP 1/3: Druid Recalls Chill metal SP 3/3: Druid casts Cure Light wounds on self x 3 SP 0/3:
Usurpator 01-18-06, 12:14 PM	Another issue with just allowing free play with PoP to remember is just allowing spell point system can result in silly effects. I fail to see why you think your example is silly. The druid has a full complement of spells, he is just not allowed to cast them all by the CoCo management. As soon as he cast 1/3rd of his complement, he decides (or the judges tell him) not to cast anymore. The RP reasoning given was that 'spellcasters conserve their limited resources in case they are attacked outside of the arena'. Your druid has all his spells prepared, cast the chill metal, recalls it (for use later that day against possible attackers) and then casts the three cure light wounds spells he had prepared. Nothing silly here. He is not actually using 'spell points', that is just a way in which we, the players, record when someone's full complement has been reached. A lot of problem with the 1/3rd rule that people see it as a kind of spell point system for D&D. It is not. EDIT: besides that your example is not correct, since the druid has not prepared three cure light wounds, and so could cast only one. I am assuming that you intended the example differenty.
Luni 01-18-06, 12:35 PM	Question 1: A ghosts corrupting gaze? Is it always on, or can it just be used by gaze attacks. Question 2: If someone uses turn undead on a ghost, does the ghost automatically lose, because it runs away for 10 rounds, which leaves it no time to come back.
King Uther 01-18-06, 01:15 PM	1) A gaze attack is always going. If you are within range, you must make the save every round or take 2d10 damage and 1d4 CHA damage. A very powerful gaze, I might say. 2) Usually in that case the answer would be yes. The ghost would travel so far out ofthe arena there is no chance for return.
King Uther 01-18-06, 01:29 PM	This has come up in the Prison thread: Dissolving weapon is an allowable pre-buff, provided you have 4 levels of Psychic Warrior, or 5 levels in Psion with the Expanded Knowledge feat. But otherwise it is not allowed.
Usurpator 01-18-06, 02:48 PM	Caster Level is not a prerequisite. Certainly not in the CoCo, and probably also not in the regular D&D rules (this was discussed in tavern). But on to the question: Q: Do caster levels that are mentioned after 'Prerequisites:' under magic items, or from other sources count as a prerequisite in CoCo? Examples: Ioun Stone Caster Level 12th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be 12th lvl Page 286 DMG, crafting magic weapons Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: the creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. Amulet of Mighty Fists Caster level: 5th; Prerequisities: Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic fang, creator’s caster level must be at least three times the amulet’s bonus; Amulet of Natural Armor Caster level: 5th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, barkskin, creator’s caster level must be at least three times the amulet’s bonus;
Macbrea 01-18-06, 09:49 PM	How exactly does a Feather Token grapple? It has a +15 Attack bonus but doesn't appear to have any strength. Is it just grapple in the square the person it was in? Assuming it is Str 10?
DTFarstar 01-18-06, 10:12 PM	I still think that when it says it functions "exactly" as if prepared and cast normally that it means just that, but it's not my call. I've taken this ruling, much as I disagree with it, into account in my current tactics. I realize Skip has said something to this effect(agreeing with you guys) as well, but I lost all faith in Skip long ago. Anyway, thank you, LLMC, for taking the time to reply. I may bring this up again at some point, but I will try not to be too annoying about it. It really doesn't matter to me character wise, I just really believe this is the correct interpretation. I'm just stubborn that way. :P
SauroGrenom 01-18-06, 11:07 PM	About Manifesting Services: If low level powers are purchased with manifesting services at a higher than minimum ML and augmented, how do you calculate the cost of these services? I assume it's like spells, ie manifester level x powerlevel, and augmentation doesn't have any effect on the cost of the service. I've been told otherwise and would like some clarification. Thanks.
LLMadCow 01-19-06, 12:47 AM	Question about Rewards from the CoCo Rules: How does a Pitlord calculate the XP and gp. rewards gladiators get from defeating multiple monsters in an arena fight? 1. You calculate the rewards for each monster individually (the Caterane school of thought). 2. You calculate the rewards for the encounter as a whole (the King Uther school of thought). Examples: Tezca (ECL7) defeats in the arena: A. 4 Duergar (CR 3 each, EL 7 total) B. 1 Hill Giant (CR 7 each, EL 7 total) 1. Rewards according to the Caterane school of thought: A. 2100 XP and 3600 gp. B. 2100 XP and 2600 gp. 2. Rewards according to the King Uther school of thought: A. 2100 XP and 2600 gp. B. 2100 XP and 2600 gp. Pitlords have used both calculations in the past, about a 50/50 divide. Obviously, characters who had Pitlords that used calculation 1 have received a monetary advantage versus others. And that advantage can get quite big, in the example shown, those who had calculation 1 applied received 38% more gold. In this situation, the correct choice is: You calculate the rewards for each monster individually (the Caterane school of thought). The reasoning behind this is: Hastar the Meek and Zooty the Freak are scheduled to fight 1d4 + 3 MadCows. Hastar the Meek ends up fighting 4 MadCows and Zooty the Freak ends up having to fight 7 Madcows. The end result is that Hastar the Meek has it easier than Zooty the Freak. Since Zooty had to fight more enemies, he gets more rewards. Okay. After reading this over multiple times, I agree that it is not a 100% flawless arguement, but this is: Caterane is the GM of the borad and has already discussed how things are to be resolved.
LLMadCow 01-19-06, 05:46 AM	As we know, nondection works against see invisible. Does the psionic power escape dectection work against see invisible too? QDA - Escape Detection and Nondetection are both listed as being effective against Clair[add extension here], and if the ruling has been made that nondetection works against see invisible, then escape detection would as well. LLMC
Pittbull 01-19-06, 06:04 AM	QDA - Escape Detection and Nondetection are both listed as being effective against Clair[add extension here], and if the ruling has been made that nondetection works against see invisible, then escape detection would as well. LLMC The ruling has been made 1,5 years ago in the 'Spells and Magic Items FAQ', I have no post, but we've used this spell since then in that matter.
LLMadCow 01-19-06, 06:45 AM	What equipment slots are available on a psycrystal? Interesting question. This is one of those issues that any group of gamers would need to come to some sort of agreement on, if there were some circumstances where they felt a need to house rule it, but... A Psycrystal has no equipment slots. Here is a list of the commonly accepted slots.... One headband, hat, helmet, or phylactery on the head One pair of eye lenses or goggles on or over the eyes One amulet, brooch, medallion, necklace, periapt, or scarab around the neck One vest, vestment, or shirt on the torso One robe or suit of armor on the body (over a vest, vestment, or shirt) One belt around the waist (over a robe or suit of armor) One cloak, cape, or mantle around the shoulders (over a robe or suit of armor) One pair of bracers or bracelets on the arms or wrists One glove, pair of gloves, or pair of gauntlets on the hands One ring on each hand (or two rings on one hand) One pair of boots or shoes on the feet I would doubt that a psycrystal has any ability to manipulate much of anything. IF the psicrystal has the SELF PROPULSION active, then it has a strength and a dexterity score, and might be able to manipulate ... something. Since a Psicrystal has: Strength 1 and is Diminutive.... Light Load ... 0.75 lb. or less Medium Load ... 1 - 1.5 lb. Heavy Load ... 1.75 – 2.5 lb. It has a dexterity of 15, but this is more an issue of how agile it is and its size; actual physical dexterity and the ability to perform acts of fine manipulation are beyond it.
LLMadCow 01-19-06, 06:50 AM	The ruling has been made 1,5 years ago in the 'Spells and Magic Items FAQ', I have no post, but we've used this spell since then in that matter. I am not doubting the ruling, it sounds reasonable, I am just saying that I have not tracked it down to confirm or refute your statement. As I go through and answer many of these questions, there will be instances where I am able to track down and respond to everything fully and with a great amount of detail. (Example Here) In the instances where I do not feel a need to track down every aspect of a question, then everyone needs to understand this in my reply, along with having an understanding that if the assumption is later proven to be incorrect, then the ruling may be reversed. That's all. LLMC
Snommelp 01-19-06, 11:08 AM	I'm thinking about trying my hands at a wizard build again, but before I make my final decision I have a question to Ask An Elder. If my wizard was invisible and cast a touch spell, designating his familiar as toucher, could the familiar deliver the spell without breaking my wizard's invisibility?
MindWandererB 01-19-06, 11:21 AM	I'm thinking about trying my hands at a wizard build again, but before I make my final decision I have a question to Ask An Elder. If my wizard was invisible and cast a touch spell, designating his familiar as toucher, could the familiar deliver the spell without breaking my wizard's invisibility?I'll give LLMC a hint on this one. Check out the "Channel Power" ability of a psicrystal, which is basically the same thing as "deliver touch power" but applies to non-touch powers as well. It specifically breaks invisibility.
SauroGrenom 01-19-06, 11:48 AM	Interesting question. This is one of those issues that any group of gamers would need to come to some sort of agreement on, if there were some circumstances where they felt a need to house rule it, but... A Psycrystal has no equipment slots. Here is a list of the commonly accepted slots.... One headband, hat, helmet, or phylactery on the head One pair of eye lenses or goggles on or over the eyes One amulet, brooch, medallion, necklace, periapt, or scarab around the neck One vest, vestment, or shirt on the torso One robe or suit of armor on the body (over a vest, vestment, or shirt) One belt around the waist (over a robe or suit of armor) One cloak, cape, or mantle around the shoulders (over a robe or suit of armor) One pair of bracers or bracelets on the arms or wrists One glove, pair of gloves, or pair of gauntlets on the hands One ring on each hand (or two rings on one hand) One pair of boots or shoes on the feet I would doubt that a psycrystal has any ability to manipulate much of anything. IF the psicrystal has the SELF PROPULSION active, then it has a strength and a dexterity score, and might be able to manipulate ... something. Since a Psicrystal has: Strength 1 and is Diminutive.... Light Load ... 0.75 lb. or less Medium Load ... 1 - 1.5 lb. Heavy Load ... 1.75 – 2.5 lb. It has a dexterity of 15, but this is more an issue of how agile it is and its size; actual physical dexterity and the ability to perform acts of fine manipulation are beyond it. This question was sparked by this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050927a) article in the Rules of the Game series on Wizards.Com down at the bottom it mentions that cat familares can wear a number of items. Also there is a 3.0 edition article here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20020322a). It has a few pictures of psycrystals that have self propulsion activated. It also specifically mentions that the crystal is able to manipulate things with its "tail". I know that this is not a CoCo source, but it is the only place I could find a picture of a psycrystal with selfpropulsion active. It also is the only place I could find where the psycrystals ability manipulate something is specifically mentioned. It may be reasonable for a crystal to wear a belt or fit little boots onto its ectoplasymic leggs, or mabey put rings on its feet (like the cat familare above) or wear a tiny cloak or a specially crafted armor or vest. It would seam that a crystal has atleast a body/torso slot and probably a belt slot as well. All others are far less likely, but boots and cloaks may be possibile.
SauroGrenom 01-19-06, 01:38 PM	In thinking about psycrystals I noticed that, unlike familare's, psycrystals are not forbidden from gaining feats due to HD. Nor does the psycrystal have a bab equal to its masters bab. Does the absense of these details in the description of psycrystals allow the creature to gain feats and bab increases due to HD? Also in the psionics section of the SRD the monster entry of the psycrystal states that only levels in psion and wilder are used to calculate the HD of the psycrystal. So does that mean that all psiwarriors with psycrystals have 0 HD psycrystals?
Usurpator 01-19-06, 02:12 PM	In this situation, the correct choice is: You calculate the rewards for each monster individually (the Caterane school of thought). I'll gladly except the ruling! Any definitive ruling is better than no clear rule. I would suggest to Caterane to clear it up in the rules, since half of the Pitlords were doing it differently. However, you did not give an direct answer to my question with your example, since in my example the challenge is equal, the XP is equal, only the gold differs. I completely agree that 7 Madcows give more XP than 4 Madcows because 7 Madcows have a higher EL than 4. My question implied: why don't you base the treasure reward of the total EL as well, instead of using individual rewards. Warning, extreme example! Our friendly neighbourhood ECL10 Sahuagin gladiator defeats 16 CR 2 Madcows (EL 10). What rewards will he get? According to the current rule: 0 XP and 9,600 gp. Rule 1 skews the XP treasure distribution, and since your wealth by level is an important indicator of your combat effectiveness.... Anyway, I'll go and modify Tezca, he is suddenly 700 gp. richer because he defeated 3 Duergar some weeks ago and was rewarded according to rule 2. :)
Luni 01-19-06, 09:52 PM	Are Large weapons twice as long as medium size ones? And by comparison huge weapons are four times as long as medium ones? Also, how long are the weapons anyways? The reason I'm asking is because of this: Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible; items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature. Light, however, never becomes invisible, although a source of light can become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source). Any part of an item that the subject carries but that extends more than 10 feet from it becomes visible.
TelinArtho 01-19-06, 09:59 PM	Probably not too much to worry about unless you are able to get reach with your weapon as a large creature or unless you are huge in size.
Luni 01-19-06, 10:10 PM	Probably not too much to worry about unless you are able to get reach with your weapon as a large creature or unless you are huge in size. What about Half-Giants Psy War, casting Expansion, growing to large weilding huge weaponry, then drinking a potion of INvisibility? :)
TelinArtho 01-19-06, 10:17 PM	Well, unless you are holding the weapon straight out - you shouldn't have to worry about it... But yes - if you expand and are mounted with a lance - the last 10ft of it will extend beyond the invisibility.
MitzaVolchenko 01-19-06, 10:36 PM	Where/how does a pixie get their special arrows? What do they cost? Do you pay credits for them?
Vathelokai 01-20-06, 09:39 AM	I'm thinking about trying my hands at a wizard build again, but before I make my final decision I have a question to Ask An Elder. If my wizard was invisible and cast a touch spell, designating his familiar as toucher, could the familiar deliver the spell without breaking my wizard's invisibility? This is my understanding... You share a spell (invis) normally. While invis you can cast spell on yourself and your allies without breaking the invis. If you invisible familiar attacks, then it breaks invis. If your familiar steps away from you and breaks the share spell link then it will become visible. Since the link is already broken, the familiar can attack and not break your invis. @LLMC: This brings up another great debate - when you share a spell with your familiar are you sharing one spell or is there a duplicate of the spell you cast on the familar? Examples: if you share resist elements with your familiar and someone dispels your familiars resistance, does your resistance disappear as well? If you share CLW, does it give you, your familiar or both the HP? If you share bull strength, does it effect both of you? Skip, Usurpator, and Myself all have a different answer to these questions.
Macbrea 01-20-06, 11:54 AM	As the house rule for hiding in CoCo is "Hiding: You cannot hide within effects provided by spells or items that target you and give concealment or cover such as Blur, Concealing Amorpha and a Tower Shield." The question I have is may you hide within the feat Cloak Dance? Cloak Dance [General] You are skilled at using optical tricks to make yourself seem to be where you are not. Prerequisites Hide 10 ranks, Perform (dance) 2 ranks. Benefit You can take a move action to obscure your exact position. Until your next turn, you have concealment. Alternatively, you can take a full-round action to entirely obscure your exact position. Until your next action, you have total concealment.
TelinArtho 01-20-06, 02:53 PM	Caster Level is not a prerequisite. Certainly not in the CoCo, and probably also not in the regular D&D rules (this was discussed in tavern). But on to the question: Q: Do caster levels that are mentioned after 'Prerequisites:' under magic items, or from other sources count as a prerequisite in CoCo? Examples: Ioun Stone Caster Level 12th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be 12th lvl Page 286 DMG, crafting magic weapons Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: the creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. Amulet of Mighty Fists Caster level: 5th; Prerequisities: Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic fang, creator’s caster level must be at least three times the amulet’s bonus; Amulet of Natural Armor Caster level: 5th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, barkskin, creator’s caster level must be at least three times the amulet’s bonus; If I could just highlight this question a little - because it will matter to 2 or more of my characters in upcoming weeks.
Vathelokai 01-20-06, 09:10 PM	Here's one from the tavern that effects everyone playing a monster race: How do you deal with monsters that gain a level adjustment as the gain HD? I have a couple odd questions: The examples: Lord Frost is a 3HD (ECL 5) white dragon wyrmling age 5. White dragon Wyrmling is 3HD - 5HD ages 0-5 years and +2 LA. White Dragon Very Young is 6HD - 8HD ages 6-15 years and +3 LA. Saffron Brass is 4HD/Rogue 1/Horizon walker 1 (ECL 8) Brass Dragon wyrmling Age 5. Brass Dragon Wyrmling is 4HD - 6HD (ECL 6) ages 0-5 years and +2 LA. Brass Dragon Very Young is 7HD - 9HD ages 6 - 15 years and +3 LA. The question I have is can either Lord Frost or Saffron take levels of Dragon when they level up? As it appears to be able to be available to them. The second question I have will it require a miniquest/quest to do a birthday party for them? And if they have the experience to go up a level will it only cost 4 credits for the +1 LA assuming they spend that level advancement on Dragon HD if they are at the HD before the next step. The reason why I asked is I was curious if I could just go up the next to levels on Lord Frost to make him a 5HD wyrmling. Then later come back quest for a birthday party and advance him the ECLs? I never got an answer about it. I am 99% sure you don't have to quest to go up a level. I'm 75% sure you only have to pay the 4 credits for going up an age catagory. Personally, I think the credit cost should be waved, since it is part of regular character advancement. I dont know if im right, but Im brainstorming here: If you just gain the additional LA when leveling(dooesnt matter if you pay credits or not) you will not have the adequate wealth for your ECL. This leads me to the assumption that you should do a quest with the awards similar to those that you gain if you quest for an aquired template. Well, I think you should have to pay the credit cost for any additional LA you incur from going up in age category, just like you were aquiring a template. Along the same lines, you should have to at least miniquest for your age, just like with any other non-rules related requirement for a class. For example, a Blackguard must make "peaceful contact with an evil outsider" which can be done in a miniquest. I not sure if a full quest should be required like aquired templates (which are the only other things that let you add a Level Adjustment to your character once he's in play). Besides, birthday quests for dragons should be fun! Just think of the presents you'll get! I don't think you should have to play your dragon character for many years just to advance in age.
Vathelokai 01-21-06, 02:36 AM	I believe this was answered, but I couldn't find it in the prison. Can you craft a magic item by hiring an NPC to cast the spell for you? How many castings do you have to buy Example: Could a 5th lv wizard make a figurine of wonderous power if they hired a 15th level cleric to cast animate objects for them?
Stormwind 01-21-06, 04:18 PM	Is the soulknife's 5th level ability, Shape Mind blade persistent? That is, once shaped, does the blade remember it's form the next time it is materialised? The only official answer I can find written in black or white is this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=3958939) from customer services. The only other place this is answered by an 'official' source is here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=3261762&postcount=4), however this is both vague and unclear.
Luni 01-21-06, 10:19 PM	Can gladiators trade equipment before a match? Following options. PC trades with PC PC trades with Cohort PC trades with Mercenary
MitzaVolchenko 01-23-06, 03:44 AM	Still waiting on someone to tell me how Sliver is supposed to obtain her pixie arrows (sleep/memory loss). Huan gave it a stab the other day and couldn't come up with the answer. Anyone else want to give it a try?
DTFarstar 01-23-06, 05:05 AM	Not specific question, but I really want to emphasize this so, forgive the font size. We really need at least semi-concrete delay rules. They cause too many problems being as vague as they are. Current fight, I don't know is Astral Constructs are meaningful interaction, or if getting hit by them is, or what....
Sunwolf 01-23-06, 09:59 AM	I believe this was answered, but I couldn't find it in the prison. Can you craft a magic item by hiring an NPC to cast the spell for you? How many castings do you have to buy Example: Could a 5th lv wizard make a figurine of wonderous power if they hired a 15th level cleric to cast animate objects for them? I'm not an elder, but my opinion on this is NO. Spell casting services is getting a single spell cast for a fee. Crafting requires the assisting caster to be present for the whole day for each 1000gp of market price of the item being made. A much larger time investment on the part of the assisting caster and not covered in the cost of casting a single spell.
Cerebus13 01-23-06, 11:07 AM	I'm not an elder, but my opinion on this is NO. Spell casting services is getting a single spell cast for a fee. Crafting requires the assisting caster to be present for the whole day for each 1000gp of market price of the item being made. A much larger time investment on the part of the assisting caster and not covered in the cost of casting a single spell.LLMadCow answered this a while back. His interpretation basically nerfed the whole idea because he said that you are required to pay for NPC spell casting for every day spent crafting. A 10000gp item takes 10 days to craft, so you have to pay for 10 days of NPC spellcasting. Typically this is about equal to the normal price of just buying the item, or even more expensive.
MindWandererB 01-23-06, 11:11 AM	I'm not an elder, but my opinion on this is NO. Spell casting services is getting a single spell cast for a fee. Crafting requires the assisting caster to be present for the whole day for each 1000gp of market price of the item being made. A much larger time investment on the part of the assisting caster and not covered in the cost of casting a single spell.Plus, you can't commission spellcasting services with a caster level higher than your ECL without paying credits at the black market.
Macbrea 01-23-06, 11:17 AM	Ok, somewhat odd question but very CoCo specific: Template: Lich +4 To become a Lich you must be construct your own Phylactery. Each lich must make its own phylactery, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher. The phylactery costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation. By the reading of this and the CoCo rules the first availble time a person can actually do this template is 11th to 15th level. As the person would gain greater then 120,000 gps in the level advancement for the quest reward. Would all of the money from those levels of advancement go into building the Phylactery? Or is there a special rule in CoCo that relates to quest rewards simply being you build a Phylactery? I realize by CoCo rules you don't actually have to be a 11th level caster.
Dracazar 01-23-06, 11:27 AM	I believe this was answered, but I couldn't find it in the prison. Can you craft a magic item by hiring an NPC to cast the spell for you? How many castings do you have to buy Example: Could a 5th lv wizard make a figurine of wonderous power if they hired a 15th level cleric to cast animate objects for them? I think you are asking the same thing I asked some days ago, I'll paste the answer I got: Uilo is a Druid and wants to craft a Brooch of shielding Brooch of Shielding: This appears to be a piece of silver or gold jewelry used to fasten a cloak or cape. In addition to this mundane task, it can absorb magic missiles of the sort generated by spell or spell-like ability. A brooch can absorb up to 101 points of damage from magic missiles before it melts and becomes useless. Faint abjuration; CL 1st; Craft Wondrous Item, shield; Price 1,500 gp. Uilo has no access to Shield spell so according to this: Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). Uilo used a Spellcasting Service for 10 gp * the Spell's level * the Casterlevel * days required to craft 10 * 1 * 1 * 2 = 20 gp I hope this is ok, we are talking about it in tavern and all seems ok, only this: This section includes all craft feats for spellcasters (scrolls, potions, arms&armor, rods, staffs, wands, rings, wondrous items, and constructs) as well as those equivalents for psionic manifesters (tattoos, powerstones, dorjes, cognizance crystals, psicrowns, universal items, and psionic constructs). In order to craft a magic or psionic item, you must have the appropriate feat and any spell or power mentioned as necessary in the items entry. However, you do not have to have the caster level mentioned in the item's entry! Crafting follows the core rules as described in the DMG/EPHB in the respective feat description. You have to pay 1/2 of the market price in raw materials, and 1/25 of the market price in XP It says that it follows the core rules described in DMG (that allow the use of a spellcasting service) but it says also that you must have any spell necessary in the items entry (and this could be an house-rule). It could be also argued that you "have" the spell because you "have" the NPC available (per DMG) to cast it for you daily. What post do I link to the character sheet for the crafting? Thanks Sorry but that would enable every character with the craft feat to craft every item since neither CL nor Spells are a requirement anymore. No brooch for a druid.
LLMadCow 01-23-06, 04:01 PM	How do you deal with monsters that gain a level adjustment as the gain HD? Quick recommendation for all of you in the CoCo: If at all possible, I recommend going for your entire life without coming down with gastroenteritis. It is horrible and has made the last 4 days of my life quite miserable. If all goes well, I will be a functional human being in the next day or so. I know that for the last 3 days, all I have done is drink some gatorade or water, so I could go to the bathroom again, in between my marathon sleep sessions. Bleh. (For anyone who knows anything about health, my BP dropped to 97/49 and the ER pumped 4 bags of saline into my right arm.) Now, to answer this question.... If there is a monster that gains LA as it gains HD, the player must pay for the LA with credits. Let's get a nice, easy example to work with. Example: Sparky the Copper Wyrmling. Racial 5 / LA 2 If you wish, Sparky can advance his racial HD. With the advancement of his racial HD, he gets skills and such, but no class benefits. If you want to advance him to the next age category, then this is what happens: When it is time for Sparky to advance from 7HD to 8HD, you advance as normal, but you also pay 4 credits for the extra LA. Make sense? LLMC
Macbrea 01-23-06, 04:05 PM	Are you required to quest to pay those 4 credits in order to keep your Money to Experience ratio correct for purposes of CoCo?
bgt 01-23-06, 04:07 PM	My question is thus- The MM provides rules on making new lycantropes. Does this mean that we could make charachters with types of lycanthropy other than what is presented in the MM (werebear, wereboar, dire wereboar, wererat, weretiger, werewolf)? Could I, for instance, have a werelizard charachter? Edit-While I'm on the subject, the DCs for Control Shape change depending on whether or not their's a full moon. When is the moon full at the CoCo?
Macbrea 01-23-06, 04:15 PM	My question is thus- The MM provides rules on making new lycantropes. Does this mean that we could make charachters with types of lycanthropy other than what is presented in the MM (werebear, wereboar, dire wereboar, wererat, weretiger, werewolf)? Could I, for instance, have a werelizard charachter? I can answer this one. As long as the animal has a listed entry in the MM you can make a Lycanthrope of it. Two examples of such in play are: Tezca (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7573203) the werelepard and Imperi (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7307744) the wereeagle. They are both gladiators in the arena and legal characters.
bgt 01-23-06, 04:23 PM	I can answer this one. As long as the animal has a listed entry in the MM you can make a Lycanthrope of it. Two examples of such in play are: Tezca (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7573203) the werelepard and Imperi (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7307744) the wereeagle. They are both gladiators in the arena and legal characters. Thanks, now all I need are some credits...
Ravashack 01-23-06, 08:19 PM	Questions: Are you allowed to manifest Astral Constructs with the Fly ability in midair? Dovetailing that, are you allowed to summon flying creatures midair? If you can, does the maneuverability of the creature matter when doing so? (I.E. will having Average or worse maneuverability prevent this from happening since the creature can't hover?)
Mal-2 01-23-06, 08:54 PM	Questions: Are you allowed to manifest Astral Constructs with the Fly ability in midair? Dovetailing that, are you allowed to summon flying creatures midair? If you can, does the maneuverability of the creature matter when doing so? (I.E. will having Average or worse maneuverability prevent this from happening since the creature can't hover?) I think these are the rules that govern these spells: Metacreativity Metacreativity powers create objects, creatures, or some form of matter. Creatures you create usually, but not always, obey your commands. A metacreativity power draws raw ectoplasm from the Astral Plane to create an object or creature in the place the psionic character designates (subject to the limits noted above). Objects created in this fashion are as solid and durable as normal objects, despite their originally diaphanous substance. Psionic creatures created with metacreativity powers are considered constructs, not outsiders. A creature or object brought into being cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it. The creature or object must appear within the power’s range, but it does not have to remain within the range. For the purpose of psionics-magic transparency, metacreativity powers are equivalent to powers of the conjuration school (thus, creatures immune to conjuration spells are also immune to metacreativity powers). Creation A power of the creation subdiscipline creates an object or creature in the place the manifester designates (subject to the limits noted above). If the power has a duration other than instantaneous, psionic energy holds the creation together, and when the power ends, the created creature or object vanishes without a trace, except for a thin film of glistening ectoplasm that quickly evaporates. If the power has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through psionics. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on psionics for its existence. Conjuration Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or some form of energy to you (the summoning subschool), actually transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling), heal (healing), transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation), or create objects or effects on the spot (creation). Creatures you conjure usually, but not always, obey your commands. A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it. The creature or object must appear within the spell’s range, but it does not have to remain within the range. [...] Summoning A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again. When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells. I've allowed people to summon flying creatures in midair in the past, but I probably shouldn't have, by the strictest reading of those rules. I used my discretion on mid-air as a "surface capable of supporting" a flying creature.
Warclone 01-23-06, 09:12 PM	The only issue here is the interpretation of the word 'surface'. A creature or object brought into being cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. dictionary.com defines object as "Something perceptible by one or more of the senses, especially by vision or touch; a material thing." and since air is perceptible by touch and is a material thing, it is an object. As such, you cannot manifest this unless you are in a vaccum, but you cannot manifest it in a vaccum because a vaccuum is empty space. So, you cannot manifest these powers and the issue is moot. Or we can use our intelligences and come to a different conclusion.
Huan 01-23-06, 09:59 PM	Once and for all I would wish for this particular question to be resolved: Corrupt Weapon, found in the Blackguard Spell list, is the opposite of Bless Weapon, as what it does it provide a means to penetrate DR/Good. However, keep in mind neither spell is alignment based, so Bless Weapon is not a [Good] spell and Corrupt Weapon is not an [Evil] spell. Now, RP aside, since this spell can be applied in oil form, is there any ill consequence for a paladin using it on a weapon? (more specifically, is it an 'Evil Act' for purposes of the Paladin Code of Honor). My stand is that it's perfectly fine for Paladin use, as there is clearly nothing inherently Evil about the spell and the application thereof cannot be defined as 'Evil'. Naturally, I wish for another Elder's thoughts on the matter.
Ayrynthyn 01-23-06, 10:30 PM	Couple things if i may. Smoke Sticks. Smokestick This alchemically treated wooden stick instantly creates thick, opaque smoke when ignited. The smoke fills a 10-foot cube (treat the effect as a fog cloud spell, except that a moderate or stronger wind dissipates the smoke in 1 round). The stick is consumed after 1 round, and the smoke dissipates naturally A bank of fog billows out from the point you designate. The fog obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. A creature within 5 feet has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker can’t use sight to locate the target). A moderate wind (11+ mph) disperses the fog in 4 rounds; a strong wind (21+ mph) disperses the fog in 1 round. The spell does not function underwater. ...that's pretty much it. Can i get a rules clarification on Time to Activate, Duration of "Naturally", and wether or not a fire source is required to Activate it? Also, even though the effect reads "treat as the fog cloud spell" i have seen it argued that it must be "heavy smoke" per the smoke rules, although i see nothing indicating such in the Fog Cloud Spell description... Smoke Effects A character who breathes heavy smoke must make a Fortitude save each round (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or spend that round choking and coughing. A character who chokes for 2 consecutive rounds takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. Smoke obscures vision, giving concealment (20% miss chance) to characters within it. the only source i have on any of this if from a Tactics and Tips here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/tt/20050509a) Which i guess isn't core, but yet the rules of the game"s are which....kinda confuses me, but i...er... well that's why im here. Smokesticks Alchemical Item (Player's Handbook, page 128): These alchemical items cost 20 gp and weight 1/2 pound. The smoke from it works like fog cloud. The duration isn't specified in the item's description. A good rule of thumb for DMs is to have it last until the end of the encounter (unless environmental effects are in place, such as a breeze that might dissipate it after several rounds or a gust of wind spell that clears it in a single round). **************************************** ******* Secondly...Can i make a request that this: Sorry but that would enable every character with the craft feat to craft every item since neither CL nor Spells are a requirement anymore. No brooch for a druid. ...finds it's way into the House Rules of the Rules thread as it's directly counter to RAW?
KerlanRayne 01-24-06, 04:53 AM	I realize by CoCo rules you don't actually have to be a 11th level caster.Sure you do. Magic items have a caster level listed BEFORE the prerequisites. This is not a requirement. Any level or caster level requirements listed IN the prerequisites must still be met. KerlanRayne
Ravashack 01-24-06, 05:08 AM	--Cleaning up debate--
Macbrea 01-24-06, 07:59 AM	Sure you do. Magic items have a caster level listed BEFORE the prerequisites. This is not a requirement. Any level or caster level requirements listed IN the prerequisites must still be met. KerlanRayne Actually, this hasn't been really answered yet. If you read TelinArthro's question it is exactly the same question as far as wether that is required or not. If it isn't a requirement here then we can have things like Blackguard Liches.
Usurpator 01-24-06, 08:15 AM	Actually, this hasn't been really answered yet. If you read TelinArthro's question it is exactly the same question as far as wether that is required or not. If it isn't a requirement here then we can have things like Blackguard Liches. Blackguard Liches? I haven't heard of that magic item before, what does it do? Really, my question (and TelinArhto's repeat) solely pertains to magic items, and not to templates or feats (or prestige classes for that matter). @LLMadCow or any other Elder: I would like the question answered as soon as possible, since Nexa is already languishing in prison for this issue, but until I get an answer, I can do nothing to correct it and spring her.
MindWandererB 01-24-06, 12:41 PM	Blackguard Liches? I haven't heard of that magic item before, what does it do?He's referring to the lich's phylactery, but he's wrong: the phylactery doesn't say "CL: 11," it says "the character must have a caster level of 11th or higher." That's the difference between items with a caster level listed and ones with a caster level as a requirement.
Warclone 01-24-06, 02:24 PM	That's a ridiculous overexaggeration. Using your same logic, it's ok to summon moles completely submerged in rock because they have a burrowing speed. If you're going to use intelligence, "surface" being intended to mean something solid or liquid and "empty space" referring to midair makes the most logical sense. Ravashack, it is important to know the rules when you are getting into a debate over them. You can't summon moles under ground because you don't have a line of effect underground. Using your interpretation, you can't summon a dolphin while you are underwater with a wand of summon monster, which you clearly can. A rose by any other name is still a rose. What object were the creators referencing when they used the word surface? Were they referencing the ground? No, they were referencing a legitimate enviroment for the item created.
Ravashack 01-24-06, 04:16 PM	--Cleaning up debate--
NiQil 01-24-06, 04:28 PM	@ Ravashack, Warclone & anyone else involved with the summon/air issue. This thread is not to be used for debates, as stated in the first post of the thread. If you want to debate, take it to the Tavern. Your question will be answered in due time.
Ravashack 01-24-06, 04:40 PM	@ Ravashack, Warclone & anyone else involved with the summon/air issue. This thread is not to be used for debates, as stated in the first post of the thread. If you want to debate, take it to the Tavern. Your question will be answered in due time. Oops. Sorry about that. Cleaning up then.
waywreth 01-25-06, 12:29 PM	I have a few questions regarding the delay rules: Would this count as a delay if one character was invisible but actively seeking his opponent, and the other character was hiding and sneaking around doing the same? My guess would be that both characters would be illuminated at the 10th round. What about if if one character was invisible but actively seeking his opponent, and the other character was hiding waiting for the reveal? How about if one character spends 9 rounds withdrawing and one round using some sort of attack action, is that legal? Is it legal to withdraw when fighting a barbarian and let his rage run out if you're faster? Thanks,
LLMadCow 01-25-06, 11:00 PM	Since Psionics and Magic are so very transparent, is it possable to craft/aquire psionic versions of various items that modify magical prowess. For example can a character buy a psionic version of the Orange Ioun Stone that grants a +1ML. Or could a character buy/craft rods of metapsionics? Or is it possible to make a psionic version of a ring of wizardry? If so would these items cost credits? King Uther addressed this issue, and I agree with his assessment. The items would cost credits to craft, and you would have to follow the guidelines set forth in the Black Market thread.
LLMadCow 01-25-06, 11:46 PM	Since this came up in a recent fight and must needs be clarified for future fights: how lenient should a pitlord be with "meaningful interaction" concerning the 10-round rule? If one character is getting shot at roughly once every nine rounds or so, but does not react except to move away, is that still meaningful interaction? Meaningful interaction is really up to the discretion of the player running the fight. As a general rule, running away in fear and avoiding a player just long enough to expire their ability/power/effect is not very meaningful. Sneaking about and getting in the occassional shot can be considered meaningful. I see it like this: If the player is actively seeking combat, even if they are very cautious about it, then they are performing meaningful interaction. If they are not seeking combat, then there is no meaningful interaction. If a player is intentionally attacking 1/10 rounds, then I think we can safely say that they are trying to abuse the rules and bypass any real interaction. Slap them with the penalty. And another: when doubling the price of a weapon to make it cold-iron, how much do you double? Base price, Masterwork price, Size modifiers, other? Masterwork cost and enhancement remains the same for any item crafted, unless expressly detailed in the description of the material in question. So, if you are making changes for size or special material, you only change the base price. All weapons cost an additional 300gp to be masterwork. All armors cost an additional 150gp to be masterwork. This is true for all materials that do not establish their masterwork quality up front. LLMC
Book5 01-26-06, 05:31 PM	Concentration, Prestidigitaion, Slight of Hand, and Tumble, as a combo. Played the way I have always thought was pretty core - all allow for amazing reduction of action cost without the need of a feat. All Slight of Hand actions can be done as free actions. Slight of Hand, Tumble, and Concentration allow you to take varius actions without provoking attacks of opportunity. As well as other benies... Prestidigitation allows you "levitate" various things around negating the need for spellcasters having to hold things, allowing them to draw scrolls as {not} actions, and generally being a useful combat spell like flame dart and disrupt undead. Slight of Hand has a couple of functions .. one of which is "a minor feat of ledgerdemain" such as making a coin appear behind a listening, spotting, observing ear :D the tell: you saw the "" end right? You have much wisdom :bow: LLMadcow
MindWandererB 01-26-06, 05:49 PM	Concentration, Prestidigitaion, Slight of Hand, and Tumble, as a combo. Played the way I have always thought was pretty core - all allow for amazing reduction of action cost without the need of a feat.....Prestidigitation allows you "levitate" various things around negating the need for spellcasters having to hold things, allowing them to draw scrolls as {not} actions, and generally being a useful combat spell like flame dart and disrupt undead.Prestidigitation cannot be used to draw items. The spell is there to entertain mostly, and perhaps there might come up one or the other situation when it is really useful but it never replaces feats, nor does it damage. Due to the freestyle nature of this spell, it requires DM (here: pitlord) judgement and this should always take balance and the effects into consideration. (source (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8069737&postcount=1950)) Unless LLMC disagrees and wants to debate with him, this is the ruling at present.
SoulLord 01-26-06, 06:08 PM	Question Can the Dust of Tracelessness be used to pinpoint an invisible oponent? Dust of tracelesness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#dustofTracelessness)
Book5 01-26-06, 07:11 PM	(source (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8069737&postcount=1950)) Unless LLMC disagrees and wants to debate with him, this is the ruling at present. patronize me please :bow: LLMadcow :angel:
LLMadCow 01-26-06, 07:34 PM	Concentration, Prestidigitaion, Slight of Hand, and Tumble, as a combo. Played the way I have always thought was pretty core - all allow for amazing reduction of action cost without the need of a feat. All Slight of Hand actions can be done as free actions. Slight of Hand, Tumble, and Concentration allow you to take varius actions without provoking attacks of opportunity. As well as other benies... Prestidigitation allows you "levitate" various things around negating the need for spellcasters having to hold things, allowing them to draw scrolls as {not} actions, and generally being a useful combat spell like flame dart and disrupt undead. Slight of Hand has a couple of functions .. one of which is "a minor feat of ledgerdemain" such as making a coin appear behind a listening, spotting, observing ear :D the tell: you saw the "" end right? You have much wisdom :bow: LLMadcow Okay, well there are a number of aspects to this question..... I agree that the ability to do things without invoking AoO's is cool, but this is what is written within the skills themselves and is intended to function in such manner. This is all kept in check by restrictions as to what classes get the skills as class skills and how many ranks are required to attain such abilities. In regard to Prestidigtation, I rule on this in line of thought with the how powerful is the spell idea. Basically, if the spell is SO AWESOME that EVERYONE would want it at that level, then it is overpowered. Since the basics of what the spell does is incredibly weak and it is so low level, I believe that your use of the spell was over powering it. That is fine for a home game, but on the boards we need the balance. I would not allow a mage to use the spell to draw spells and such, but I might allow him to do misc other things throughout a fight, all of which would need prior approval by the person running the fight. Spells are spells and feats are feats. Occassionally we might have magic items that duplicate the effects of feats and such, but for a spell to be as powerful as you are trying to use Prestidigitation, it would have to be a higher level. Remember the roots of the word prestidigitate come from nimble fingers, NOT third arm. LLMC
Book5 01-26-06, 09:09 PM	prestidigitation, forget ledgerdemain for now :D I might allow him to do misc other things throughout a fight, all of which would need prior approval by the person running the fight. May I humbly suggest my latest great Idea (its been brewing, and alchemically has seen both an' white an' black phase) I was using it "overboard" snicker, oh! didnt see that coming till it hit me but perhaps this would be more on the level. Because its a tad unclear and seems resonable on the table top.. BUT To levitate an object with prestidigitation you must "target" it mentally as a standard action similar to controlling an image. You must designate a character-relative location (I.e. behind my hand, above my head, or on my shoulder) for the object to remain at, that location, until otherwise directed, it is molested, or the duration of prestidigition ends. Prestidigitation can not support more than 1 lb. options/questions/editing A: This pound can be distributed amongst several objects B: This pound is the limit to the wieght of one single object at a time. A would give you the ability to have a couple scrolls, a hand sized spell component, or a dagger floating around your head(, behind your hand, over the shoulder etc.). I can see this not letting you draw weapons as a free action, but certainly once designated (and floating) it would be reasonable to read scrolls wihtout drawing them and/or grab a dagger as a {free} action. B would most reasonably allow you to draw a weapon both out of your inventory (presuming SRD 360 perfect vision) as well as draw something off someone else. "Small object levitation spell.. 10' range." as a {not} action - triggered by a {standard} action. Yes you can snatch it back with a {move-e} action.. but it'll just keep magneting slowely to "behind my back" when you are not holding on to it, or tie/nail it down... or get more than 10' away. Coralitive Questions: Changing the color/adding a mark onto an object requires a standard action of concentration? Creating a small object requires {1 round}{full round}{standard} action? I could see it all ways. "Minor Creation" "Miniature Solid Illusion" "Just Presto-Standard-Concentration" :confused: Not that overpowered I don't think.. you have to use it intelligently and there are downside to accessing that possibility. There would be a number of wasted standard actions, not the least of which would be the casting of the spell. The way I was trying to run it gave it a third arm feel I agree - save that third arms dont give you any more actions in 3.5 d&d.. that should be a feat rec: more than two arms and 5 ranks of concetration.. :shifty: wait! no new feats Book! Umm, but the blocked suggestion I think is more ...nimble. :D
Book5 01-26-06, 09:42 PM	Slight of Hand, "Ledgerdemain" I agree that the ability to do things without invoking AoO's is cool, but this is what is written within the skills themselves and is intended to function in such manner. This is all kept in check by restrictions as to what classes get the skills as class skills and how many ranks are required to attain such abilities. So what your saying is.. :anglehide: "Yes" you can "Ledgerdemain" a dagger/scroll/item from you sheath/bag/belt/sleeve into your hand without drawing an AoO? As a {free} action in the middle of combat for a -20 penalty to your SoH check? Or did I pull the proverbial "fast one" on that part of the initial question? These are all wrapped together kinda.. Tan is what I thought was a pretty standard build arcane/thief (with some fighter salt for optimume mid/high level performance) character. I was honestly suprised to see that there was no one using these simple things here.. at first I naturally assumed that I had missed something raw, but I dont think I have. Many skills have an "increase" speed option on them, and most classes have a "I can do that too" option in them as well. Sometimes we get a case of "I can do this but thats just as good" scenario. Of this like, I considerd Slight of Hand and Quickdraw. Both get to a similar place. One is primed for fighter ("as a fighter combat feat") and one is one the rouge/bard skill list. One (quickdraw) comes with coralary "full attack with ranged weapons" the other (SoH) comes with the option to draw.. other things because it is more than just a balance skill. Its not a craft. Its the class skill for just two base classes. Bard and Rouge, while only 3 (Arcane Trickster, Elocater, Shadowdancer) prestige classes posses it. Its a powerful skill neh? Free action.. "put a coin away" but not "put it in your hand?" or was that really "yes thats fine you can draw light weapons/scrolls/items as a free action with (SoH-20). Upto a creature one size category larger than you once your epic...."
LLMadCow 01-27-06, 01:12 AM	Slight of Hand, "Ledgerdemain" So what your saying is.. :anglehide: "Yes" you can "Ledgerdemain" a dagger/scroll/item from you sheath/bag/belt/sleeve into your hand without drawing an AoO? As a {free} action in the middle of combat for a -20 penalty to your SoH check? Or did I pull the proverbial "fast one" on that part of the initial question? These are all wrapped together kinda.. Tan is what I thought was a pretty standard build arcane/thief (with some fighter salt for optimume mid/high level performance) character. I was honestly suprised to see that there was no one using these simple things here.. at first I naturally assumed that I had missed something raw, but I dont think I have. Many skills have an "increase" speed option on them, and most classes have a "I can do that too" option in them as well. Sometimes we get a case of "I can do this but thats just as good" scenario. Of this like, I considerd Slight of Hand and Quickdraw. Both get to a similar place. One is primed for fighter ("as a fighter combat feat") and one is one the rouge/bard skill list. One (quickdraw) comes with coralary "full attack with ranged weapons" the other (SoH) comes with the option to draw.. other things because it is more than just a balance skill. Its not a craft. Its the class skill for just two base classes. Bard and Rouge, while only 3 (Arcane Trickster, Elocater, Shadowdancer) prestige classes posses it. Its a powerful skill neh? Free action.. "put a coin away" but not "put it in your hand?" or was that really "yes thats fine you can draw light weapons/scrolls/items as a free action with (SoH-20). Upto a creature one size category larger than you once your epic...." Ladies and Gentlemen, I will be using the color RED, as well as the UNDERLINE, ITALICS and BOLD formatting tools to help enhance the following reply. Please sit back and enjoy the show. :) SLEIGHT OF HAND (DEX; TRAINED ONLY; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY) Check: A DC 10 Sleight of Hand check lets you palm a coin-sized, unattended object. Performing a minor feat of legerdemain, such as making a coin disappear, also has a DC of 10 unless an observer is determined to note where the item went. When you use this skill under close observation, your skill check is opposed by the observer’s Spot check. The observer’s success doesn’t prevent you from performing the action, just from doing it unnoticed. You can hide a small object (including a light weapon or an easily concealed ranged weapon, such as a dart, sling, or hand crossbow) on your body. Your Sleight of Hand check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone observing you or the Search check of anyone frisking you. In the latter case, the searcher gains a +4 bonus on the Search check, since it’s generally easier to find such an object than to hide it. A dagger is easier to hide than most light weapons, and grants you a +2 bonus on your Sleight of Hand check to conceal it. An extraordinarily small object, such as a coin, shuriken, or ring, grants you a +4 bonus on your Sleight of Hand check to conceal it, and heavy or baggy clothing (such as a cloak) grants you a +2 bonus on the check. Drawing a hidden weapon is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. If you try to take something from another creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check to obtain it. The opponent makes a Spot check to detect the attempt, opposed by the same Sleight of Hand check result you achieved when you tried to grab the item. An opponent who succeeds on this check notices the attempt, regardless of whether you got the item. You can also use Sleight of Hand to entertain an audience as though you were using the Perform skill. In such a case, your “act” encompasses elements of legerdemain, juggling, and the like. Sleight of Hand DC ... Task 10 ............... Palm a coin-sized object, make a coin disappear 20 ............... Lift a small object from a person Action: Any Sleight of Hand check normally is a standard action. However, you may perform a Sleight of Hand check as a free action by taking a –20 penalty on the check. Try Again: Yes, but after an initial failure, a second Sleight of Hand attempt against the same target (or while you are being watched by the same observer who noticed your previous attempt) increases the DC for the task by 10. Special: If you have the Deft Hands feat, you get a +2 bonus on Sleight of Hand checks. Synergy: If you have 5 or more ranks in Bluff, you get a +2 bonus on Sleight of Hand checks. Untrained: An untrained Sleight of Hand check is simply a Dexterity check. Without actual training, you can’t succeed on any Sleight of Hand check with a DC higher than 10, except for hiding an object on your body. There is nothing you can do that is not stated in the rules. As you can see by what I highlighted above, you cannot draw a weapon as a free action.Drawing a hidden weapon is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.It is a standard action that will allow you to avoid the AoO IF your opponent does not manage to spot you. If your opponent manages to spot your attempt at sleight of hand, then it still takes a standard action, but they also get an AoO against you. Make sense? All that being said, why would you really bother with it, considering that you can draw a weapon as a free action as part of a 5' move once you have a +1 BAB? LLMC
Usurpator 01-27-06, 04:26 AM	All that being said, why would you really bother with it, considering that you can draw a weapon as a free action as part of a 5' move once you have a +1 BAB? LLMC Dangerous ruling here MadCow, since you can only draw a weapon as part of a regular move. What you are implying is that you can do it together with a 5 ft. step, which you surely cannot. You can only do this with a regular move (which can be 5 ft.), and *cannot* do this with a 5 ft. step, withdrawing, charging, getting moved by something else (like a grapple), just any move action, etc. etc. And can you please, please answer the question about the level requirements for magic items? Nexa is now sitting out her third week in prison because of this unclarity in the CoCo rules.... I posted the question here some time ago, and repeated the request for an answer in this thread twice, TelinArtho did too.
NiQil 01-27-06, 04:38 AM	With regard to the Horizon Walker prestige class... Whenever you are facing a creature who comes from one of the environments you have chosen as a terrain (or planer) mastery, in addition to various individual bonuses, you also gain a +1 insight bonus to attack and damage rolls against all creatures with that environment listed in their entry in the MM. My question is...how does this insight bonus to attack and damage rolls apply to creatures that list their environment as Any? Does that mean you get that bonus all the time against those creatures? Do characters that have this listing now need to start specifying environments on their character sheets for this purpose? An example of this is the player race Elan, who has the listing Environment: Any in it's psionic monster entry. If I were a level 1 Horizon Walker, would I get my insight bonus against elans regardless of what environment I have chosen? Or would I not get it at all, since the entry does not state a specific environment? Edit: Nevermind...upon further inspection I found the answer myself... The horizon walker only gains the bonus if the creature description specifically lists the terrain type.
MitzaVolchenko 01-27-06, 07:01 AM	Dangerous ruling here MadCow, since you can only draw a weapon as part of a regular move. What you are implying is that you can do it together with a 5 ft. step, which you surely cannot. You can only do this with a regular move (which can be 5 ft.), and *cannot* do this with a 5 ft. step, withdrawing, charging, getting moved by something else (like a grapple), just any move action, etc. etc. 5' step is a misc. action which is qualified as movement which is unlike running or withdrawing which are exceptional movement/full round moves. One needs to decide what 'regular' means. In my opinion it means not faster than normal and not over difficult terrain. Technically one can draw a weapon as a free action while climbing, jumping, etc. as they are always taken as part of regular movement. Neat, huh?
LLMadCow 01-27-06, 01:13 PM	Dangerous ruling here MadCow, since you can only draw a weapon as part of a regular move. What you are implying is that you can do it together with a 5 ft. step, which you surely cannot. You can only do this with a regular move (which can be 5 ft.), and *cannot* do this with a 5 ft. step, withdrawing, charging, getting moved by something else (like a grapple), just any move action, etc. etc. I am still working on clearing out questions. I will be getting to more today. Let me start by saying that I stand behind my reply above, and there is nothing dangerous about it. When you make a move action, you can move as little as 5' and as much as your movement allows. Never once did I say you can draw a weapon as part of a 5' STEP, but always as part of a MOVE. There is a big difference. I never implied that you can do it with a 5' step. All that being said, why would you really bother with it, considering that you can draw a weapon as a free action as part of a 5' move once you have a +1 BAB? See? 5' MOVE. If I say STEP, I mean Step. If I say MOVE, I mean move. Plain and simple. There is always a difference between the words imply and infer. I never implied anythingof the nature of what you are accusing me, but you have, incorrectly, inferred such. So, please remember that MOVE = MOVE and STEP = STEP. And can you please, please answer the question about the level requirements for magic items? Nexa is now sitting out her third week in prison because of this unclarity in the CoCo rules.... I posted the question here some time ago, and repeated the request for an answer in this thread twice, TelinArtho did too. In regard tp the Level Requirements for crafting of items: Caterane and I chatted about this some and it is official: You MUST meet the CL requirement for any item in DMG. That being said, there still needs to be some debate and such about custom items that have no listed CL. There are several schools of thought in regard to this, but it has yet to be hammered out. LLMC
Usurpator 01-27-06, 01:36 PM	Let me start by saying that I stand behind my reply above, and there is nothing dangerous about it. When you make a move action, you can move as little as 5' and as much as your movement allows. Never once did I say you can draw a weapon as part of a 5' STEP, but always as part of a MOVE. There is a big difference. I never implied that you can do it with a 5' step. Well, I am sorry, but specifically mentioning 5 ft. gives it *the impression* that you meant a 5 ft. step. That is why I commented on it, since people reading here cannot directly infer your intention, and might take it the wrong way. Why else the specific mentioning of 5 ft.? Stating it that way can certainly be dangerous. In regard tp the Level Requirements for crafting of items: Caterane and I chatted about this some and it is official: You MUST meet the CL requirement for any item in DMG. That being said, there still needs to be some debate and such about custom items that have no listed CL. There are several schools of thought in regard to this, but it has yet to be hammered out. Did you just reverse one of the CoCo (and FAQ) rules about creating magic items? My question did not concern the 'CL' of magic items (which is IMO not a requirement and certainly not a prerequisite for creating items, besides, the CoCo rules were quite clear about this), but it concerned any levels mentioned after the 'Prerequisites:' line. If you rule that you need to meet all 'prerequites' (even caster level), I am perfectly fine with that. If you also rule that an item's 'CL' entry should be treated as a 'prerequisite', then that is going to present a problem. But I guess you and Cat are aware of that, and probably talked that over, so in that case I'll just see what happens.
LLMadCow 01-27-06, 01:44 PM	If I hit my enemy with a weapon with the dislocator or greater dislocator weapon enchantments, will he lose the match because of the 10 round rule? If not: How should the battle proceed? Right now, the answer is this: If you hit an any with a dislocator weapon, and they lose their save, then if they do not find a way to return to the arena within 10 rounds, they will lose. This judgment is based off of the ruling for the spell MAZE and the prior CoCo rulings. This may be overturned, as it is currently in debate stages.... LLMC
NiQil 01-27-06, 01:50 PM	In regard tp the Level Requirements for crafting of items: Caterane and I chatted about this some and it is official: You MUST meet the CL requirement for any item in DMG. That being said, there still needs to be some debate and such about custom items that have no listed CL. There are several schools of thought in regard to this, but it has yet to be hammered out. LLMC I think I know what you meant to say here...but what you said and what I think you meant to say are two very different things in this case. Let me provide some examples. In red, is the CL, which we have never used as a prereq, but is what you just said must be met. In blue, are the types of things that people are wanting to know about as far as if they still have to be met. The blue items are what I think you are referring to, but used the wrong terminology. Boots of Striding and Springing: These boots increase the wearer’s base land speed by 10 feet. In addition to this striding ability (considered an enhancement bonus), these boots allow the wearer to make great leaps. She can jump with a +5 competence bonus on Jump checks. Faint transmutation; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, longstrider, creator must have 5 ranks in the Jump skill; Price 5,500 gp; Weight 1 lb. Candle of Invocation: Each of these special tapers is dedicated to one of the nine alignments. Simply burning the candle generates a favorable aura for the individual so doing if the candle’s alignment matches that of the character. Characters of the same alignment as the burning candle add a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks while within 30 feet of the flame. A cleric whose alignment matches the candle’s operates as if two levels higher for purposes of determining spells per day if he burns the candle during or just prior to his spell preparation time. He can even cast spells normally unavailable to him, as if he were of that higher level, but only so long as the candle continues to burn. Except in special cases (see below), a candle burns for 4 hours. In addition, burning a candle also allows the owner to cast a gate spell, the respondent being of the same alignment as the candle, but the taper is immediately consumed in the process. It is possible to extinguish the candle simply by blowing it out, so users often place it in a lantern to protect it from drafts and the like. Doing this doesn’t interfere with its magical properties. Strong conjuration; CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, gate, creator must be same alignment as candle created; Price 8,400 gp;Weight 1/2 lb. Darkskull: This skull, carved from ebony, is wholly evil. Wherever the skull goes, the area around it is treated as though an unhallow spell had been cast with the skull as the touched point of origin (except that no additional spell effect is tied or fixed to the darkskull). Moderate evocation [evil]; CL 9th; Craft Wondrous Item, unhallow, creator must be evil; Price 60,000 gp;Weight 5 lb. Ioun Stones: These crystalline stones always float in the air and must be within 3 feet of their owner to be of any use. When a character first acquires a stone, she must hold it and then release it, whereupon it takes up a circling orbit 1d3 feet from her head. Thereafter, a stone must be grasped or netted to separate it from its owner. The owner may voluntarily seize and stow a stone (to keep it safe while she is sleeping, for example), but she loses the benefits of the stone during that time. Ioun stones have AC 24, 10 hit points, and hardness 5. Color Shape Effect Market Price Clear Spindle Sustains creature without food or water 4,000 gp Dusty rose Prism +1 insight bonus to AC 5,000 gp Deep red Sphere +2 enhancement bonus to Dexterity 8,000 gp Incandescent blue Sphere +2 enhancement bonus to Wisdom 8,000 gp Pale blue Rhomboid +2 enhancement bonus to Strength 8,000 gp Pink Rhomboid +2 enhancement bonus to Constitution 8,000 gp Pink and green Sphere +2 enhancement bonus to Charisma 8,000 gp Scarlet and blue Sphere +2 enhancement bonus to Intelligence 8,000 gp Dark blue Rhomboid Alertness (as the feat) 10,000 gp Vibrant purple Prism Stores three levels of spells, as a ring of spell storing 36,000 gp Iridescent Spindle Sustains creature without air 18,000 gp Pale lavender Ellipsoid Absorbs spells of 4th level or lower1 20,000 gp Pearly white Spindle Regenerate 1 point of damage per hour 20,000 gp Pale green Prism +1 competence bonus on attack rolls, saves, skill checks, and ability checks 30,000 gp Orange Prism +1 caster level 30,000 gp Lavender and green Ellipsoid Absorbs spells of 8th level or lower2 40,000 gp 1 After absorbing twenty spell levels, the stone burns out and turns to dull gray, forever useless. 2 After absorbing fifty spell levels, the stone burns out and turns dull gray, forever useless. Regeneration from the pearly white ioun stone works like a ring of regeneration. (It only cures damage taken while the character is using the stone.) The pale lavender and lavender and green stones work like a rod of absorption, but absorbing a spell requires a readied action, and these stones cannot be used to empower spells. Stored spells in the vibrant purple stone must be placed by a spellcaster but can be used by anyone (see ring of minor spell storing). Moderate varied; CL 12th; Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be 12th level. Phylactery of Undead Turning: This item is a boon to any character able to turn undead, allowing him to do so as if his class level were four levels higher than it actually is. Moderate necromancy [good]; CL 10th; Craft Wondrous Item, 10th-level cleric; Price 11,000 gp All of the above items in red we have always ignored. All of the above items in blue are what people want to know about. I think you meant to say that you must meet the type of requirements that are listed in blue....but what you actually said is that you must meet the requirements in red (CL). Care to rephrase?
LLMadCow 01-27-06, 01:51 PM	Well, I am sorry, but specifically mentioning 5 ft. gives it *the impression* that you meant a 5 ft. step. That is why I commented on it, since people reading here cannot directly infer your intention, and might take it the wrong way. Why else the specific mentioning of 5 ft.? Stating it that way can certainly be dangerous. Did you just reverse one of the CoCo (and FAQ) rules about creating magic items? My question did not concern the 'CL' of magic items (which is IMO not a requirement and certainly not a prerequisite for creating items, besides, the CoCo rules were quite clear about this), but it concerned any levels mentioned after the 'Prerequisites:' line. If you rule that you need to meet all 'prerequites' (even caster level), I am perfectly fine with that. If you also rule that an item's 'CL' entry should be treated as a 'prerequisite', then that is going to present a problem. But I guess you and Cat are aware of that, and probably talked that over, so in that case I'll just see what happens. The issue at hand is that fact that the CoCo, and many of the power players for WotC, have gone back and forth on the issue of CL requirements. When I most recently spoke with Caterane, he expressed that the CL requirements were a necessary part of the creation process, and I disagreed with him. Until the CoCo FAQ says otherwise, it is business as usual, follow the FAQ, but Caterane has expressed otherwise. One of the more difficult aspects of the CoCo is understanding rules and living with them. This is also a BIG issue for the gaming community as a whole, since some of the rules tend to be confusing. We do the best that we can with what have available. In regard to your EXACT question, can you please provide an exact example that I can reply to? LLMC
LLMadCow 01-27-06, 01:57 PM	I think I know what you meant to say here...but what you said and what I think you meant to say are two very different things in this case. Let me provide some examples. In red, is the CL, which we have never used as a prereq, but is what you just said must be met. In blue, are the types of things that people are wanting to know about as far as if they still have to be met. The blue items are what I think you are referring to, but used the wrong terminology. All of the above items in red we have always ignored. All of the above items in blue are what people want to know about. I think you meant to say that you must meet the type of requirements that are listed in blue....but what you actually said is that you must meet the requirements in red (CL). Care to rephrase? Awesome reply. Examples! I love them. It helps clarify EVERYTHING! Based on your examples, I can say: The BLUE is required, 24/7. The red is only required when CATERANE updates the CoCo FAQ/Rules and makes the announcement. When he and I last spoke about the issue, he seemed to have some insider information or some such..... LLMC
Macbrea 01-27-06, 02:06 PM	I might want to add this item of interest from inside the FAQ. For the elders to help in this decision: The rules for magic item creation permit a character creating an item to use scrolls, wands, or even another caster as the source of the spells to be placed in the item. The rules do not, however, state clearly whether the character crafting the item has to be of a level sufficient to cast a given spell. Is the caster level of the character with the item creation feat being used to create the item (the “creator”) a limit on the power of the item? For example, can a 3rd-level wizard with the Craft Wondrous Item feat create items containing any spell (assuming access to the spells by other means), or is he limited to 2nd-level spells? Unless stated specifically, items never have a minimum caster level as a prerequisite. (The “CL” entry is the default caster level of the item, not a requirement for creation.) A 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item could create a harp of charming (even though he’s not high-enough level to cast suggestion, a prerequisite for creation), as long he had access to the suggestion spell during creation (such as from an item or another character). If as a house rule we wish to go counter to the FAQ then that is fine.
Usurpator 01-27-06, 02:07 PM	In regard to your EXACT question, can you please provide an exact example that I can reply to? LLMC NiQil put the question more eloquently than I did (thanks!) Nexa crafted an ioun stone. She does not need a CL 12 to do so (according to CoCo rules and the FAQ), but do the CoCo rules also imply that you do not need to meet: creator must be 12th level. I'll get back to you on the 'CL as prereq issue', but I think that is not stuff to debate in this thread.
Usurpator 01-27-06, 02:11 PM	I might want to add this item of interest from inside the FAQ. For the elders to help in this decision: And also interesting reading/food for thought: http://www.montecook.com/arch_dmonly3.html After all, he did write the magic items section in the DMG
Ayrynthyn 01-27-06, 02:17 PM	Any thoughts on Smokesticks from ...this post on page 3?? a.k.a >bump<
Cerebus13 01-27-06, 02:17 PM	Awesome reply. Examples! I love them. It helps clarify EVERYTHING! Based on your examples, I can say: The BLUE is required, 24/7. The red is only required when CATERANE updates the CoCo FAQ/Rules and makes the announcement. When he and I last spoke about the issue, he seemed to have some insider information or some such..... LLMCI believe this particular argument had already occured between Elders some time ago. Pittbull even posted a poll in which most of the Elders ruled against the idea of meeting this "Red colored" prerequisite.
LLMadCow 01-27-06, 02:38 PM	I might want to add this item of interest from inside the FAQ. For the elders to help in this decision: If as a house rule we wish to go counter to the FAQ then that is fine. Excellent quote. Can you send that to me in a PM without the quote brackets? I wish to send that along to Cat, as it contradicts what was recently discussed.... LLMC
LLMadCow 01-27-06, 02:58 PM	Couple things if i may. Smoke Sticks. ...that's pretty much it. Can i get a rules clarification on Time to Activate, Duration of "Naturally", and wether or not a fire source is required to Activate it? Also, even though the effect reads "treat as the fog cloud spell" i have seen it argued that it must be "heavy smoke" per the smoke rules, although i see nothing indicating such in the Fog Cloud Spell description... the only source i have on any of this if from a Tactics and Tips here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/tt/20050509a) Which i guess isn't core, but yet the rules of the game"s are which....kinda confuses me, but i...er... well that's why im here. The Smoke Stick does not require a fire source. It works like a modern day smoke flare that just works when you activate it. Use it as per the Fog Cloud listing and stick to that. Standard duration - until blown away. This could be impacted by the current ambient environment of the arena, but that is up to the person running the fight. Secondly...Can i make a request that this: ...finds it's way into the House Rules of the Rules thread as it's directly counter to RAW? Please send the RAW entry to Caterane and ask for clarification. LLMC
Prisonlords 01-27-06, 03:13 PM	The Smoke Stick does not require a fire source. It works like a modern day smoke flare that just works when you activate it. Use it as per the Fog Cloud listing and stick to that. Standard duration - until blown away. This could be impacted by the current ambient environment of the arena, but that is up to the person running the fight. Please send the RAW entry to Caterane and ask for clarification. LLMC I can answer the portion of the question in regard to the crafting quote that is being referenced...I have just added that to the Court Decisions. Cat has stated that in order to craft an item, you must be able to cast the spell yourself...no using expendable items or NPC services.
Ayrynthyn 01-27-06, 03:21 PM	The Smoke Stick does not require a fire source. It works like a modern day smoke flare that just works when you activate it. Use it as per the Fog Cloud listing and stick to that. Standard duration - until blown away. This could be impacted by the current ambient environment of the arena, but that is up to the person running the fight. Please send the RAW entry to Caterane and ask for clarification. LLMC Appreciate the clarification on the Smokesticks Re:Crafting... Thanks, Drakazar's quote here has the reference, and it has been debated black and blue in multitude of threads. Cat made the call that you must be able to cast the spell youself (which is his perogative to make a call of that nature). I have no beef with the ruleing as i don't play spellcasters (here), but it is my request that ruleings of this nature be posted where they belong... the "house rules section" of the Rules thread. With the newly imposed CL requirements and ability to cast your own spells on item creation, i understand that the Elven Sorcerer i have been toying around with would now need to be 4th level before he could create a... Cloak of Elvenkind This cloak of neutral gray cloth is indistinguishable from an ordinary cloak of the same color. However, when worn with the hood drawn up around the head, it gives the wearer a +5 competence bonus on Hide checks. Faint illusion; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, invisibility, creator must be an elf; Price 2,500 gp; Weight 1 lb. ...my question is where does one get this "Faint Illusion" stuff? [/sarcasm] whoops...beatn to the punch by prisonlords. With the search feature being broken, the only way a new comer has to know these kinds of things is by trolling through massive amounts of posts and threads. Its my contention that stuff like this needs to be, at a minum linked in the rules thread when its counter to RAW, otherwise we'll have these same debates every 6 weeks.
the_one_true_shea 01-27-06, 05:02 PM	Ladies and Gentlemen, I will be using the color RED, as well as the UNDERLINE, ITALICS BOLD And List formatting tools to help enhance the following reply. The show goes on.. ;) this isnt a debate. Its a question clarification. There is nothing you can do that is not stated in the rules. As you can see by what I highlighted above, you cannot draw a weapon as a free action.It is a standard action that will allow you to avoid the AoO IF your opponent does not manage to spot you. If your opponent manages to spot your attempt at sleight of hand, then it still takes a standard action, but they also get an AoO against you. Make sense? All that being said, why would you really bother with it, considering that you can draw a weapon as a free action as part of a 5' move once you have a +1 BAB? LLMC The question this begs, and hence still not debating here Just clearification. Ok, so yes you can do anything without AoO if you arnt seen. Slight of Hand creates a potential "psuedo-blind" sitiuation. Make your spot chack and you get to tag them, not? then it doesnt matter what action it was because it "wasnt seen." thats cool.. The question.. is which of these can have the -20 penalty to take the action as {free} option applied to them? The standard action to pull a hidden weapon from your sleeve or some such - not provoking an AoO regardless. The move action to draw a battle ready sheathed item normally provoking an AoO. The standard action to retrieve a "stored" item also provoking AoO. The move action to sheath a weapon Drawing or replacing a scroll/potion/item Really the one simple question is this.. the skill uses these two words ....minor feats of ledgerdemain such as making a coin.... What all does "such as" imply? How far is too far? I don't want to break the rule, but I will "beat it up" as they say. I originally took that to imply pretty much a blanket on "basic item manipulation" a powerful ability, such as the free action direct mount and free action mount mount (huh..) abilities provided by Ride, but one that only really comes into play at high levels. When you can risk a -20 to your roll, well.. since there is no failure consequence I just want to know what actions can be listed on Tan's default tactics to be attempted "at speed." At this point I have "sheath dagger." When he has skill mastery I'll include "pick pocket" I would like to add "draw item" which I think is entierly "RAI." Cat's Call regarding the usage of slight of hand was, I believe, made in the light of me trying to use SoH as a skill replacement for a feat (quickdraw). Thats not what I want, I just want to know what actions are covered by the -20 penalty. "Ledgerdemain" can cover alot of ground. How about making a flower appear? Not a coin.. How about making a card dissapear? "such as" make a small object dissapear indicates to me make small object appear, and that takes ledgerdemain to the point of covering "manipulation of small items and light weapons" such as daggers or scrolls.. which cant be drawn as a {misc} durring a {movement} action... even with quickdraw. Finally because, as a house rule, nothing I have said is unreasonable I do suggest that a clarification of the actions covered by the -20 penalty be added to the rule faqs. Not so much because I think most player would abuse it.. but because I think we should be using all the core options we can. There are only so many, and a coin is not the only thing you can ledgerdemain. edit: :blush: uh.. hi? wtf happened.. I was logged into shea with my other browser? Umm, now this is embaressing.
Vathelokai 01-28-06, 07:05 AM	If there is a monster that gains LA as it gains HD, the player must pay for the LA with credits. Let's get a nice, easy example to work with. Example: Sparky the Copper Wyrmling. Racial 5 / LA 2 If you wish, Sparky can advance his racial HD. With the advancement of his racial HD, he gets skills and such, but no class benefits. If you want to advance him to the next age category, then this is what happens: When it is time for Sparky to advance from 7HD to 8HD, you advance as normal, but you also pay 4 credits for the extra LA. Make sense? LLMCSo when the dragon raises an age catagory do they a) increase gold and xp as though gaining a template in order to stay matched against others in their league or b) have to gain 2 levels worth of gp/xp in order to advance to the next league?
LLMadCow 01-28-06, 02:56 PM	So when the dragon raises an age catagory do they a) increase gold and xp as though gaining a template in order to stay matched against others in their league or b) have to gain 2 levels worth of gp/xp in order to advance to the next league? When you have earned enough XP for the Drago to increase in age category, then you pay the additional credits to advance the LA at the same time. When this occurrs, you will be advancing 2 levels - 1 for the HD and 1 for the LA; the XP earned covers one and the Credits cover the other. Essentially you are allowed to buy the XP to advance the LA and you get gold in there too. Example: Sparky the Copper Dragon is currently a Wyrmling with 7HD and 2LA. He currently has 44,000XP and (just for ease of the example) 44,000 gp earned during his career. During a monster fight, he earns 2,000XP and 2,000gp. This brings his totals up to 46,000 XP/GP. Since he only needs 45,000XP to Level, and he wants to advance to a Very Young Copper Dragon, what happens is this: the player spends 4 credits for the LA (goes from LA+2 to LA+3) and they earn additional gold and experience accordingly to the difference between the 10th and 11th levels for starting PCs. Make sense? LLMC
Skojar 01-29-06, 06:54 PM	Three questions: 1) The Prison says I need Elder approval to train a non-standard trick. In Complete Adventurer a number of different tricks are outlined, each a specific use of the 'Aid Another' action: Assist Attack (DC20), Assist Defend (DC20) and Assist Track (DC20). Can I teach pets or animal companions these tricks? Can summoned creatures (e.g. those produced by a bag of tricks be asked to perform them? Finally, can my familiar use Aid Another? 2) I can't find anywhere a list of what tricks a trained dog knows. Can I pick three or will it always be the Guarding or Fighting packages? Can a riding dog be purchased with six tricks of my choosing or must it be the Combat Riding package? How about as 'hunting dog' with the Hunting package instead? 3) I see from the Prison thread that the combat riding package grants an animal armor proficiencies. How about the Guarding or Fighting packages? Although it would look crazy, is my familiar proficient in armor? Does it make a difference if I am (he uses my base saves, BAB, and skill ranks, after all)?
SauroGrenom 01-30-06, 03:42 PM	Can characters with monster HD and a LA use there monster HD to qualify for the Leadership Feat? If so, how is it leadership score of those characters calculated?
Vathelokai 01-30-06, 04:07 PM	Can characters with monster HD and a LA use there monster HD to qualify for the Leadership Feat? If so, how is it leadership score of those characters calculated? Hit Dice: The creature’s Hit Dice equal the number of class levels it has plus its racial Hit Dice. Additional Hit Dice gained from taking levels in a character class never affect a creature’s size like additional racial Hit Dice do. Feat Acquisition and Ability Score Increases: A monster’s total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases. So yes, your monster HD are added to your Class HD to determine your total HD for feat (leadership) acquisition. Your leadership score is equel to your character level + chr mod + misc. mods. So I'm guessing that for a monster your score is Race HD + class level + chr +misc., but this is not explicitly defined anywhere that I know of. If it is actually ECL + chr. mod, then that would be cool. Oops... thought this was the tavern for a second. Appologies for the clutter.
Warclone 01-31-06, 09:37 PM	Does the silence spell allow a save if cast on a location that includes a creature (not the creature itself)? What if its cast on an item and then moved so that a creature is in the zone of effect?
NiQil 02-01-06, 02:47 AM	What are the rules with regards to using your opponents expendables in a match? How is this handled? As an example: Cleric casts sleep on Ranger, who possess some scrolls and a wand. Cleric pilfers all items possible while Ranger is sleeping, including the scrolls and wand. Cleric casts read magic to be able to use the scrolls while Ranger sleeps. Cleric now attempts to CDG Ranger with one of the scrolls and is successful, killing Ranger. Is Cleric even allowed to use the scroll (by CoCo rules, not by the RAW..this is not a RAW question)? If so, how is the expenditure of the scroll handled? Does it count as a used item by Ranger? Is it automatically restored by the Nimbus, meaning it goes back into Ranger's inventory as if it had never been used? Does it get listed as an expenditure for Cleric, who would then have to pay the appropriate gp cost and list it in his used expenditures? Also, a second question...can we get some defined rules for what will wake a person up while under the sleep spell (and probably deep slumber as well)? The spell description of sleep is vague. For instance, in the above example for my other question, would the raiding of a sleeping person for all of his weapons and expendables cause him to wake up at some point? How about the removal of his armor? I guess what I really want to know is how powerful do we want this spell to be? This issue came up in the recent fight between Death and Sybil, where Sybil hit Death with sleep and proceeded to strip all weapons and expendables from him. She did not, however, try to remove armor. It was ruled by the pitlord that this was allowed, but even the pitlord (Kaigan) stated that he was unsure, but this would be how he would do it for now. So we need some defined rules as to what will wake a party up during sleep. The sleep spell description is just too vague.
MitzaVolchenko 02-01-06, 02:10 PM	Mitza's list of unanswered questions... 1) Sleep issue, see above. and refer to Sybil ap Kalten's last couple of fights for precedent. It is a full round action to wake someone magically slumbered. 2) Expendables...add to that whether or not it is a blind activation for someone to use a wand when they know what the wand is. If the opponent has one wand and all gladiators have full disclosure of equipment in advance, how can it be blind? 3) Pixie Special Arrows!!!!!!
NiQil 02-01-06, 02:16 PM	Mitza's list of unanswered questions... 1) Sleep issue, see above. and refer to Sybil ap Kalten's last couple of fights for precedent. It is a full round action to wake someone magically slumbered. 2) Expendables...add to that whether or not it is a blind activation for someone to use a wand when they know what the wand is. If the opponent has one wand and all gladiators have full disclosure of equipment in advance, how can it be blind? 3) Pixie Special Arrows!!!!!! Here is the answer to #2: Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Regardless of whether you know what wand someone is carrying, you still would need to make a UMD check to determine the word that must be used to activate the item, as per the bolded section above. If your opponent has never said that word in your hearing, you have no way of knowing what that word is without either a DC 25 blind UMD check, or an identify spell.
Snommelp 02-01-06, 05:05 PM	Regardless of whether you know what wand someone is carrying, you still would need to make a UMD check to determine the word that must be used to activate the item, as per the bolded section above. If your opponent has never said that word in your hearing, you have no way of knowing what that word is without either a DC 25 blind UMD check, or an identify spell. I'm going to have to disagree with you, NiQil, on the basis that the next sentence after your bolded one seems very much to state other than you claim. That sentence is: "Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell." Seems to me that if a person knows how to use the item, it stands to reason that said person knows the command word, seeing as that's part of using the item.
Usurpator 02-01-06, 06:00 PM	I'm going to have to disagree with you, NiQil, on the basis that the next sentence after your bolded one seems very much to state other than you claim. That sentence is: "Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell." Seems to me that if a person knows how to use the item, it stands to reason that said person knows the command word, seeing as that's part of using the item. Already solved the potential problem with a new Gladius Weekly article, which I hope appears next week. In any case, I sought a RP outcome for this issue, and rest assured that from next week on, everyone can use steal and use the Wands that The Four Horsemen (and most other characters) carry! :)
Biota 02-01-06, 06:00 PM	From the Rules of Gladius, Allies II post: You may buy any one of the nine basic animals listed in the "Goods and Services" table (PHB,p129). Normally, these animals come trained but you may optionally request them to be untrained. Where is a list of what tricks a basic animal knows? I looked in the SRD monster entry and equipment list entry for these 9 animals and didn't find any mention of tricks. What am I missing? thanks, Biota
MindWandererB 02-01-06, 06:04 PM	Where is a list of what tricks a basic animal knows? I looked in the SRD monster entry and equipment list entry for these 9 animals and didn't find any mention of tricks. What am I missing?You'll find the list under the Handle Animal skill in the PHB (p.74). By the way, this sort of question is better asked in the Tavern--you don't need an Elder's attention for this. However, I do need an Elder for this question: Do mercenaries go on quests? The Rules are silent and ambiguous on the matter.
MitzaVolchenko 02-02-06, 12:39 AM	Here is the answer to #2: Regardless of whether you know what wand someone is carrying, you still would need to make a UMD check to determine the word that must be used to activate the item, as per the bolded section above. If your opponent has never said that word in your hearing, you have no way of knowing what that word is without either a DC 25 blind UMD check, or an identify spell. Wrong by RAW which you quoted. The user must determine what spell is stored in the item. If you have that information, you can use it freely if it is in your list. If one has to see an item perform its use and cannot determine it from the fact that we get full knowledge of what our opponent has, then I refer you to my argument of you fearing the longsword over the dagger +50 of NiQil smiting because you have no way to know that the dagger has that ability from looking at it. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it.
LLMadCow 02-02-06, 08:32 AM	Okay. After great discussion and debate, all of the Pixie's special arrows are banned. Wands: You can steal a wand and then use it in battle, so long as you know what is in there and you have the spell on your list or UMD. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. This is establishing that the activation word is not unique, but based on the spell in the wand. A spell caster can make random attempts to use the wand. People do research and have an idea about what opponents have. If they enemy only owns 1 wand, then I know what want it is in my hand when I steal it. An item stolen and used up is spent. An item stolen and destroyed is replaced. Such as if a sword is stolen and shattered. More to follow on Sunday, my next few days are a rush. I MIGHT have some time in the early afternoon (EST) tomorrow. LLMC
Sunwolf 02-02-06, 08:45 AM	For humaniods that can fly (ie dragon disciple 9th level), what restriction is there on wieght or armor such that they can still fly? Do they get a reduction in flight speed at some point? I suppose that this question also applies to pixies. Can they fly in heavy armor if they are strong enough to still be only lightly encumbered due to the weight? I have found in the SRD that flying *mounts* cannot fly in medium or heavy barding. However, I have not found any mention on how to deal with flying characters (using their own wings).
Pitlords 02-02-06, 08:53 AM	However, I do need an Elder for this question: Do mercenaries go on quests? The Rules are silent and ambiguous on the matter. This is the list with all active Mercenaries of Gladius. You can hire a Mercenary for one of your Arena fights by sending a PM to Pitlords anytime before the Wednesday 9 PM deadline. Hope that helps.
Sunwolf 02-02-06, 09:17 AM	What is the pricing for a magic item with multiple properties? For example: +2 con/+2 str shirt. As seperate items each would be 4000gp market price for a total of 8000gp and require two item slots. Would this item cost as a single item (I am also assuming that these would cost 5 credits according to the Gladius rules): 1) 4000gp *2 + 4000gp = 12000gp (increase price of most expensive magic by 100%) 2) 4000gp + 4000gp *1.5 = 10000gp (increase price of least expensive or last magic by 50%) SRD seems to favor 2 -- I believe that I saw some erratta that the multiplier was supposed to be 2x like I have suggested in 1.
Usurpator 02-02-06, 10:58 AM	An item stolen and used up is spent. LLMadCow, I beg you to reconsider this ruling. I am against it, but I am not above writing tactics that totally abuse this rule if it becomes canon, since it is part of the CoCo after all to find optimum builds and optimum tactics. Anybody caught in a sleep spell or reduced to negative hp. or something similar can now just kiss all his potions goodbye, possibly scrolls and other expendables too, if my character can use them. You can permanently cripple a character if you allow their opponent to permanently use up their items, in an even worse way than the burglary proposal. "You are retiring, why? Well, I not only lost the fight, but my opponent drank my potion of fly, took my wand of magic missiles and emptied it at me while I was unconscious and still wearing my brooch of shielding. Then he randomly read off my scrolls, used up my ring of the ram by beating against a pillar and drank my remaining potions."
waywreth 02-02-06, 11:18 AM	LLMadCow, I beg you to reconsider this ruling. I am against it, but I am not above writing tactics that totally abuse this rule if it becomes canon, since it is part of the CoCo after all to find optimum builds and optimum tactics. I totally agree with Usurpator here... penalizing players because they fail a save isn't good. It's bad enough they'll lose the fight, but having them lose every expendible item as well isn't good. I would say the thief is allowed to use the items, and after the fight the nimbus restores all items to the state they were before being used by an opponent.
Caterane 02-02-06, 11:21 AM	An item stolen and used up is spent. This is contradictory to the rules. There is no economic damaging of player characters in the coco. You can use the stolen item, even gain the effects, it is not available to the victim for this fight, but it is returned afterwards.
TroubleWolf 02-02-06, 11:24 AM	"You are retiring, why? Well, I not only lost the fight, but my opponent drank my potion of fly, took my wand of magic missiles and emptied it at me while I was unconscious and still wearing my brooch of shielding. Then he randomly read off my scrolls, used up my ring of the ram by beating against a pillar and drank my remaining potions." I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. I mean, if we cut down on the number of expendables people had available, we could really see how well their build stands up against others, as opposed to how cleverly they can use their cash. Not that I'm not guilty of using expendables, but then again, you have to use them to keep up with the competition.
MitzaVolchenko 02-02-06, 02:02 PM	*sobs wretchedly at the loss of the pixie arrows* I may retire Sliver as the concept was built for the memory loss arrows but I do see how the unlimited by HD sleep could be abused...of course it is no worse IMO than the horde of expendables, but I am biased. On clarifying the arenas...in the Hall can a character stand on the edges above the dropp off by the statues? It was ruled that they could in a fight some time ago, but I don't recall which.
DSugui 02-03-06, 07:08 AM	I asked in the Tavern, but got no answer, so I am asking here instead. How much does a saddle for a riding dog weight? Is it the value noted here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#mountsAndRelatedGea r)? Since it does not say elsewhere differently, I am inclined to believe so, but I think it does not make sense that a saddle for a dog would weight as much as a saddle for a horse...
Zevox 02-08-06, 11:52 PM	Something thats been bugging me ever since it got brought up in the tavern: how many spells are allowed on a single scroll? The table in the SRD (quoted below) seems to indicate that the max is 6, yet several characters here have scrolls with over 6 (and one actually has all his spells on a single massive "superscroll"). Table: NUMBER OF SPELLS ON A SCROLL Scroll Type...................Number of Spells Minor scroll.............................1d3 spells Medium scroll..........................1d4 spells Major scroll.............................1d6 spells Zevox
Luni 02-09-06, 01:08 AM	I asked in the Tavern, but got no answer, so I am asking here instead. How much does a saddle for a riding dog weight? Is it the value noted here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#mountsAndRelatedGea r)? Since it does not say elsewhere differently, I am inclined to believe so, but I think it does not make sense that a saddle for a dog would weight as much as a saddle for a horse... Yeah, the saddle is universal. Warponies are medium creatures and use the same saddle.
Guildmaster (TAO) 02-10-06, 02:16 AM	Something thats been bugging me ever since it got brought up in the tavern: how many spells are allowed on a single scroll? The table in the SRD (quoted below) seems to indicate that the max is 6, yet several characters here have scrolls with over 6 (and one actually has all his spells on a single massive "superscroll"). Zevox I cannot actually rule on this, but there are some points from the tavern that should be taken into consideration. - There is no rule that specifies the maximum number of spells on a scroll, either for a limit or against a limit. - There is a "rules of the game" article where Skip says " I recommend a maximum of seven spells. If a scroll contains more spells than that, it takes a move action to find the correct one." Based on the phrase "I recommend", it can be assumed that that is one of Skip's house rules. - Pretty much everyone is of the opinion that having a 20 ft long scroll is silly. The current state of the question is wether there should be a max of 6 spells on a scroll, or if scrolls longer then 6 should require a move action to locate the proper spell. I support the 6 spell max, just because it's easier on the pitlords.
Luni 02-12-06, 10:34 PM	I cannot actually rule on this, but there are some points from the tavern that should be taken into consideration. - There is no rule that specifies the maximum number of spells on a scroll, either for a limit or against a limit. - There is a "rules of the game" article where Skip says " I recommend a maximum of seven spells. If a scroll contains more spells than that, it takes a move action to find the correct one." Based on the phrase "I recommend", it can be assumed that that is one of Skip's house rules. - Pretty much everyone is of the opinion that having a 20 ft long scroll is silly. The current state of the question is wether there should be a max of 6 spells on a scroll, or if scrolls longer then 6 should require a move action to locate the proper spell. I support the 6 spell max, just because it's easier on the pitlords. Since NiQil (Prisonlords) and the Guildmaster (TAO) are in agreement, we shall use the 6 spell max on scrolls. If you disagree, PM me stating why (Arguements stating because it doesn't say either way will be ir-regarded). If another Elder wants to over-rule me, go ahead, but state your reason please. As for all the other questions, if I get a chance after running my fight, I'll go through the list and answer some of them.
Luni 02-12-06, 10:37 PM	For humaniods that can fly (ie dragon disciple 9th level), what restriction is there on wieght or armor such that they can still fly? Do they get a reduction in flight speed at some point? I suppose that this question also applies to pixies. Can they fly in heavy armor if they are strong enough to still be only lightly encumbered due to the weight? I have found in the SRD that flying *mounts* cannot fly in medium or heavy barding. However, I have not found any mention on how to deal with flying characters (using their own wings). All flying creatures with wings can only fly when lightly encumbered. If they fly my magical means, they can fly while heavily encumbered. Note: I have no clue how this applies to non-winged flight (Air Elementals, Beholders, Etc)
Luni 02-12-06, 10:39 PM	Does the silence spell allow a save if cast on a location that includes a creature (not the creature itself)? What if its cast on an item and then moved so that a creature is in the zone of effect? No save unless targetted on a creature or on a creatures items. Yes, you could cast Time Stop, then cast silence on manacles while you strap manacles onto the opposing wizard
LLMadCow 02-13-06, 03:40 AM	Quick note to those who have posted questions..... I want to apologize: For the time being, I am coming and going. I am dealing with some medical issues and my energy is quite sapped. When I was admitted to the emergency room on January 20, I was bleeding internally. They initially thought it was related to my immediate problems of dehydration. Since then, I have had the joy of continued internal bleeding and this has led to some other problems. I have been having a variety of tests and I am going to have some more this week. So far the tests have been tolerable, but this week is going to test my resolve. I will be in and out. My energy levels are quite low and I sleep a lot more now. When I get my health more on the path to normalcy, I will attack this again with gusto. Until then, I come and go, and I will try to answer some questions as time and energy permit. For now, I welcome any and all to ignore the no debate clause and discuss and debate issues at will. This is always a good place to discuss many of the rules. When answering another's questions, remember to reference the SRD and the CoCo Rules and FAQs. If the questions fall outside of this, I will try to address them when possible. After Friday, February 17, I will know more and, God willing, I will be on the way to recovery! Have fun and look forward to my full return.
Vathelokai 02-13-06, 03:43 AM	As for all the other questions, if I get a chance after running my fight, I'll go through the list and answer some of them. Funny, I was thinking about cleaning this thing up a bit myself.... Q:Are Elves immune to "magic sleep effects" as per PHB or "magic spells and effects" as per MM? A:It's "magic sleep" because the PHB is the primary source. -Luni Q:Can a character hold the charge of a touch power and a touch spell at the same time? A:No, because COCO treats psi and magic as equel. -LLMadCow No, because psi powers are treated as spell like abilities. -Pittbull Q:Can invisible gladiators see their stuff, like scrolls? A:Yes, casters are immune to their own illusions. -Pittbull Yeah, what Pittbull said. -LLMadCow Q:How long does a pin last in a grapple? A:Until the begining of your next turn, or until it is broken, whichever comes first. -LLMadCow (and a clarification) Q:With the coco house rule of "hide within ranks=feet of cover," how is the distance calculated? A:Use the actual distance, not the movement distance. -LLMadCow Q:Do winged lycanthropes gain wings and flight speed in hybrid form? A:Hybrid speed is based on the humanoid/giant component of the lycanthrope, so no. -LLMadCow Q:Are PP gained from the body fuel feat subject to the 1/3rd rule? A:No.-LLMadCow Q:How should we handle psionic dislocator weapons? A:Let me check. -LLMadCow They are allowed right now, but we're looking at it. -LLMadCow Q:How do you determine fight rewards when fighting multiple monsters? Each monster seperately, or as one encounter? A:Calculate each monster seperately then add the total. -LLMadCow Q:Does the psi power escape detection work against see invisibility? A:If it works just like the spell nondetection, then yes. -LLMadCow Yes, it does work just like nondetection -Pittbull I figured, but I couldn't find a link. -LLMadCow Q:Can you aquire psionic versions of magic items, and vice versa? Such as psionic ioun stones? A:Yes, but you have to pay credits in the blackmarket. -King Uther Yup, definitely pay credits. -LLMadCow Q:When you double the price of a cold iron weapon, do you also double the cost of the masterwork 'component'? A:You only double the item cost, then you add masterwork, or enchantments, etc.-King Uther Q:Is a ghost corrupting gaze always on? A:Yes, gaze attacks are always on. -King Uther Q:If you turn undead on an incorporeal undead, does that undead loose because it flees, thus leaving the arena for 10 rounds? A:Yes, if a creature cannot make it back in time, they are disqualified. -King Uther Q:Can you prebuff with disolving weapon. A:Only if you can cast it yourself. -King Uther Q:Do caster levels that are mentioned after 'Prerequisites:' under magic items, or from other sources count as a prerequisite in CoCo? A:Caster level listed within the prerequisite section of the magic item description are required. The CL listed before the prereqs. is the CL of the items powers, and is not a prereq. -not an elder Yes, prereq CL is a prereq. If you make a custom item, talk to Cat about it. -LLMadCow Q:Wait, do you mean the caster level of the item, or the stuff in the prereq section? -not an elder A:The stuff in the prereq, like "creator must have 5 ranks of jump," or "creator must be 11th level." Cat is thinking about changing it, but for now it's only the prereqs that are requrired. -LLMadCow Q:Can pixie PC's use/aquire/make their special arrows? A:After much debate, we have to ban them. -LLMadCow Q:How do you deal with leveling up a PC monster that gains a level adjustment as it increases in HD? A:You pay the credits for the lv. adjustment. -LLMadCow Q:So it's like applying a template, except you don't have to quest for it? Specificly, do you gain xp/gp to keep your treasure rewards in line with your new ecl, or do you have to spend twice as long gaining xp before you level up? A:When you spend the credits to up your LA, you gain xp/gp as though you had uped your level as well, so yes, it is like a template. -LLMadCow Q:Can you hire an NPC caster/manifester to help you make magic items? A:Nope, it's too abuseable. -Caterane Q:Alchemical smoke sticks; how do you activate them, how long to activate them, is the smoke natural, is it heavy smoke or 'fog cloud spell' smoke, and what's the durration? A:Standard action, you don't need a fire source, treat as a fog cloud spell for all purposes. -LLMadCow Q:Can you use 'slight of hand as a free action' to draw items? Can you use it grab items within reach? A:In the skill description it dosn't say you can draw things, only hide them. Threre is the standard action to draw hidden items, and you could try to slight of hand that if you want. -LLMadCow Q:Can you use the levitate function of prestidigitation to free up your hands in combat? A:You cannot use it to draw items. -Caterane Q:What about drawing the item yourself and then having it levitate? A:The spell says you can levitate an item, not move it, so I'll say you can levitate one item and it stays in one spot. -Huan Q:Can you use concentration to use slight of hand without provoking an AOO, to draw an item as a free action? Could you work prestidigitation into the mix? A:That's a bit much. -LLMadCow Q:Does the silence spell allow a save to creatures that walk into the spells area? What if it is cast on an inanimate object, with a creature in the area? A:It only allows a save if targeted on a creature of their equipment. -Luni Q:What are the rules for stealing and using your opponents expendables? A:They are returned after the fight -Catereane Q:Do mercenaries go on quests? A:Nope. -Caterane Q:What are the flying rules for humanoids? Specificly encumberance and armor restrictions on flight? A:Creatures with natural flight can only fly when lightly encumbered. -Luni Q:Do riding dogs have smaller saddles, or do they have to buy the horse sized one from the SRD? A:It's a universal saddle, so you have to use the 'horse' one. -Luni Q:How many spells can you put on a scroll? A:Six. -Luni Q:If an invisible wizard casts a touch spell and designates his familiar as the toucher, can the familiar attack without breaking the invisibility? A:If the familiar is sharing your spell while it attacks, then invis breaks. If the familiar stops sharing then attacks, then it dosn't break. -not an elder Q:Are large weapons twice as long? Specificly will a large creature's great sword be long enough to reach out of the invisibility spell? A:Sure but it only really applies to reach weapons -not an elder Q:Can you use the MM rules to make any kind of lycanthrope you want? A:Yeah, everybody's doing it. -not an elder Q:Can a paladin use the spell corrupt weapon for a good purpose without violating their code of honor? The spell is not aligned, but it causes a weapon to become aligned. A:I'd allow it, but I'm the person asking the question. -Huan Q:Do monster HD and level adjustment effect the leadership feat? How? A:Monster HD definitely count, but not sure about LA. -not an elder Q:Are spell levels gained from the pearl of power subject to the 1/3rd rule? A:No.-LLMadCow Wait, Cat has ruled yes? I'll go talk to him about it. -LLMadCow Q:Can you share spells with a familiar that you cast from scroll? Why? A:No, because you are activating an item, not casting a spell. -LLMadCow Q:Then what about that phrase "Effect: A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way" in SRD:Magic Items:Scrolls:Activation? What does that mean then? A: Q:What equipment slots are available on all other non-humanoids? A: Q:Please define the 10 round non-interaction rule. A:It's real purpose is to stop people from camping until their opponents buffs wear out. We might need a more in depth look at it. -King Uther Q:Can you please look into it? What about two invisible stealth builds? Or the gladiator that fires one arrow every 9 rounds while waiting for buffs to wear off? A:It really has to be up to the pitlord, since 'meaningful interaction' is such a subjective term. -LLMadCow Q:Can we at least get some guidelines? Every pitlord runs it differently, which makes it hard to write tactics, and causes arguements. A: Q:How does antimagic field work? Specificly if a large creature with a magical reach weapon is in the center of the AMF, does their weapon count as magical when they strike outside the AMF? If you fire a magic bow from inside an AMF, is the arrow magical when it strikes it's target? A: Q:What equipment slots are available on a psicrystal? A:None. -LLMadCow Q:What about the rules of the game article that says cat familiars can wear some items? A: Q:How does a feather token whip grapple? How are the bonus' figured? A: Q:How do you determine the price of NPC manifesting of psi powers? Specificly, what is the manifester lv. of an augmented power? A: Q:When you share spells with a familiar, how does that work? One copy on you and one on your familiar? One spell that effects both of you? If it's one spell, how do you deal with cures, dispels, etc.? A: Q:Since there is a house rule that "You cannot hide within effects provided by spells or items that target you and give concealment or cover such as Blur, Concealing Amorpha and a Tower Shield", does this mean that you cannot hide in the cloak dance feat? A: Q:Do psicrystals gain their own feats and their own BAB? A: Q:Do psiwarrior levels count when figuring a psicrystals HD? If not, then how do you deal with a ECL1 psiwarrior with a psicrystal? A: Q:Do soulknifes have to use the ability shape mindblade every time the manifest a mindblade, or will it be the same shape the next time they manifest it? A: Q:Can a gladiator trade equipment with a teamate/cohort/mercenary before a fight? A: Q:If you get the lich template, do you use your quest rewards to make the phylactry? Are there other rules that apply to this? A: Q:How does CoCo determine if there is a full moon for effecting lycanthropes? A: Q:Can you manifest/summon creatures that can fly in midair? Does manuverability apply? A:Literal interpretation of the rules says no, since there is no surface to summon on. -not an elder Q:But it makes sense. Can we house rule based on the RAI that swimmers can be summoned underwater and fliers that can hover can be summoned in the air? Burrowers are out since you can't get line of effect underground, but the other two make sense. A: Q:Can dust of tracelessness be used to pinpoint an invisible opponent? A: Q:What kind of nonstandard tricks can I teach an animal? The rules say I can do it with elder approval. A: Q:When you buy a trained animal, what kind of tricks does it have? A: Q:Why only give armor proficiencies to the combat riding package? Why not gurarding and fighting packages? A: Q:What wakes up an opponent under a sleep spell or effect? The rules are vague and being abused. A: Q:If you use your opponents magic items, do you have to activate them blind or do you know the key word? A: Q:How do the edges on the grand hall work? The spaces that denote a cliff or ledge? Can you stand on that A:
Vathelokai 02-13-06, 03:47 AM	After Friday, February 17, I will know more and, God willing, I will be on the way to recovery! Have fun and look forward to my full return.Ouch... I thought I had it bad. Best of luck amigo.
Luni 02-13-06, 07:03 PM	Q:What equipment slots are available on all other non-humanoids? One headband, hat, helmet, or phylactery on the head One pair of eye lenses or goggles on or over the eyes One amulet, brooch, medallion, necklace, periapt, or scarab around the neck One vest, vestment, or shirt on the torso One robe or suit of armor on the body (over a vest, vestment, or shirt) One belt around the waist (over a robe or suit of armor) One cloak, cape, or mantle around the shoulders (over a robe or suit of armor) One pair of bracers or bracelets on the arms or wrists One glove, pair of gloves, or pair of gauntlets on the hands One ring on each hand (or two rings on one hand) One pair of boots or shoes on the feet I don't see why an animal can't wear most of these. I'd prevent animals from wearing rings, gloves, and shoes. Q:How does antimagic field work? Specificly if a large creature with a magical reach weapon is in the center of the AMF, does their weapon count as magical when they strike outside the AMF? If you fire a magic bow from inside an AMF, is the arrow magical when it strikes it's target? A: I'd say no to both. Q:How do you determine the price of NPC manifesting of psi powers? Specificly, what is the manifester lv. of an augmented power? A: Every two additonal PP spent on a power increase the ML for the power, as the houserule. As for price, use the spellcasting services chart in the Players Handbook Q:When you share spells with a familiar, how does that work? One copy on you and one on your familiar? One spell that effects both of you? If it's one spell, how do you deal with cures, dispels, etc.? A: Q:Since there is a house rule that "You cannot hide within effects provided by spells or items that target you and give concealment or cover such as Blur, Concealing Amorpha and a Tower Shield", does this mean that you cannot hide in the cloak dance feat? A: Well, Cloak dance isn't a spell or item. I suppose you could use it to hide as a full-round action, but hiding where your opponent knows where you are seems kind-of pointless. Q:Do psicrystals gain their own feats and their own BAB? Q:Do psiwarrior levels count when figuring a psicrystals HD? If not, then how do you deal with a ECL1 psiwarrior with a psicrystal? A: Psicrystals do not gain feats. The sample Psicrystal only has Alertness, which would normally be a bonus feat. I'm just going to suggest we treat Psicrystals as familiars for BAB. A PsyWarrior would get the same benefit as a Psion/Wilder, though prestige classes don't count. Q:Do soulknifes have to use the ability shape mindblade every time the manifest a mindblade, or will it be the same shape the next time they manifest it? A: It'll stay the same shape. Though, if they want it to be something other than a short sword, they'll have to list the shape they want it in under prebuff. Q:Can a gladiator trade equipment with a teamate/cohort/mercenary before a fight? A: No. They get teleported in, just before combat, and aren't allowed to share equipment Q:How does CoCo determine if there is a full moon for effecting lycanthropes? A: Do we even have a moon? I'd say just use our earth moon for full. Few Dates: February 2; March 3; April 2; May 1; May 30; June 28; July 28; August 26; Sept. 25; Oct 25; Nov 23; Dec 23. I'd say if the fight or quest falls within the week containing that date, your lycanthrope would be affected as if it was full. So March 1 pairings would have a full moon. Q:Can you manifest/summon creatures that can fly in midair? Does manuverability apply? A:Literal interpretation of the rules says no, since there is no surface to summon on. -not an elder Q:But it makes sense. Can we house rule based on the RAI that swimmers can be summoned underwater and fliers that can hover can be summoned in the air? Burrowers are out since you can't get line of effect underground, but the other two make sense. A: Hrm. I'd say yes to allowing animals to be summoned in midair. Lets just leave it to creatures that can hover though. I'd assume that magical summoning would mess you up if you are already flying. Q:What kind of nonstandard tricks can I teach an animal? The rules say I can do it with elder approval. A: Anything you want that seems reasonable. Teaching your pet oxen to walk on a tightrope is probably unreasonable. But stuff like Fetch, Perform (Tap Feet), Grapple, Air Walk, Aid Another would probably all be ok. Q:When you buy a trained animal, what kind of tricks does it have? A:Just pick a package under handle animal that the animal has enough int for. You just search the market until you find one trained how you want. Q:What wakes up an opponent under a sleep spell or effect? The rules are vague and being abused. A: I'd say full round. If you are in a hurry, you can use the boot to the back of the head as an attack. Q:If you use your opponents magic items, do you have to activate them blind or do you know the key word? A: I'd say blind, unless they have already used it in the match, in which case a listen check would be called for (Suggested DC 15) Q:How do the edges on the grand hall work? The spaces that denote a cliff or ledge? Can you stand on that A:I'm not sure what you mean. I looked at the code for the map, and there is nothing that denotes cliff or ledge. All these are my opinions in red. Feel free to point out any errors. Luni
Ravashack 02-13-06, 09:21 PM	Q:How do you determine the price of NPC manifesting of psi powers? Specificly, what is the manifester lv. of an augmented power? A: Every two additonal PP spent on a power increase the ML for the power, as the houserule. As for price, use the spellcasting services chart in the Players Handbook Every additional PP increases the ML requirement, because the manifester cap is based on the manifester level. You're thinking Power level Luni. Q:When you share spells with a familiar, how does that work? One copy on you and one on your familiar? One spell that effects both of you? If it's one spell, how do you deal with cures, dispels, etc.? A: Personally I would say that you would both be treated as one target for the spell (otherwise it wouldn't be sharing it, would it...) meaning if something affects it on one target, it affects it for both targets.
SauroGrenom 02-14-06, 12:09 AM	I dissagree on a few points and I'll put my comments in blue. Q:What equipment slots are available on all other non-humanoids? I don't see why an animal can't wear most of these. I'd prevent animals from wearing rings, gloves, and shoes. What about a psycrystal? Since it doens't have a specific "shape" it may be difficult to decide. Also about animals and those specific pieces of equipment you mention, read this article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050927a) in the "Rules of the Game" down at the bottom. Also there is an interesting link there. They specificialy mention that a cat(and any animal) could wear rings and boots. Q:How does antimagic field work? Specificly if a large creature with a magical reach weapon is in the center of the AMF, does their weapon count as magical when they strike outside the AMF? If you fire a magic bow from inside an AMF, is the arrow magical when it strikes it's target? A: I'd say no to both. Well the AMF spell description specificialy mentions that any creature large enough to not be fully effected by the entire field is unaffacted in the area's of the creature that are outside of the AMF. So a Huge dragon with a 15' reach can easily bring it's head outside of the AMF and use its breathweapon. Why wouldn't a huge gladiator with 15' reach bring its hand holding a weapon outside of the AMF and strike its opponents using the special abilities of the weapon (sundering for example). Here is another example. Say you are a druid and you have a Tendriculos diplomacy ally. You cast greater magic fang on the tendrils of your ally. If the Tendriculos is later hit with an AMF, then the emanation will only cover parts of the creatures threatened area. Whenever it reaches out to the edges of its area to attack, then its natural weapons will be outside of that AMF and it should be unaffected by the AMF so those attacks should be resolved using the greater magic fang enhancement. There is another "Rules of the Game" (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050503a) article that mentions AMF. In summary an AMF blocks line of effect. So in all cases you need to consider the source, target, and line of an effect. If any are inside of the AMF the effect is suppresed by the AMF. If all are outside of the AMF, then the AMF is irrelevant with regard to that effect. A Huge dragon's head poking outside of an AMF is the source of the supernatural breathweapon and it is able to use that ability. Simularly a weapon held and wielded outside of an AMF should have magical powers with regard to its attacks. A magic bow would not empart any effect on its arrows if used in an AMF, but a magic arrow would strike with magical potency if its target is outside of the AMF. A related question is how the area of an AMF (or any simular emanation) is determined if the caster is large or larger. The spell description states that it is a 10' emanation. Also the section on spell descriptions tells us to choose a point in space and call it the source of the emanation. If I look at several spells there is a clear option for some to be sourced at a point in space (dimensional anchor for example). Other spells appear to simply be centered on the caster. So does the caster choose one of the grid intersections on there area as the source, or are all corners simultaniously considered to be the source. There are some spells that would make little sense if not done in this way (Circle of blades). I favor the last interpretation with spells that have an emanation that is centered on the caster or "You". Q:How do you determine the price of NPC manifesting of psi powers? Specificly, what is the manifester lv. of an augmented power? A: Every two additonal PP spent on a power increase the ML for the power, as the houserule. As for price, use the spellcasting services chart in the Players Handbook As per the psionics rules the ML of a purchased power is simply that. The ML of that power, this will typicially effect the range and durration of a power. The real question is whether the Power Level increases if the power is augmented. That increase in powerlevel can carry an additional increase in the cost of the service. The price of scrolls and dorje's increase when the powers are augmented. So there is a good argument to do so with manefesting services. However the spellcasters get simular increases (increased damage) in the effects of there spells by simply increasing CL and do not pay any additional cost associated with those increases in potency as an increase in CL. Take Magic Misile as an example for a spell storing weapon. The spell will only cost 10xCL. The increased power of a spell at high CL is simular to Augmenting a power, but without the associated increase in cost. A simular power is Dissipating Touch for a powerstoring weapon. This will cost 10xPLxML. If it's considered to be PL1 even if augmented then there is parity in cost. However if the PL increases as well then the cost of the Dissipating Touch rapidly increases beyond that of the Magic Missile. Also note that the powerstoring weapon has a max number of PP allowed that represents a limit on the potency of the ability. Magic spells do not have such a limit untill the CL limitation on the spell is reached. A spell stroing weapon could store vampiric touch cast at CL20 and cause tremendous damage (10d6 vampiric) unattainable with a powerstoring weapon and only cost 600gp for each use. Q:Do psicrystals gain their own feats and their own BAB? Q:Do psiwarrior levels count when figuring a psicrystals HD? If not, then how do you deal with a ECL1 psiwarrior with a psicrystal? A: Psicrystals do not gain feats. The sample Psicrystal only has Alertness, which would normally be a bonus feat. I'm just going to suggest we treat Psicrystals as familiars for BAB. A PsyWarrior would get the same benefit as a Psion/Wilder, though prestige classes don't count. There are specific passages in the SRD that tell us that familiares do not gain Feats, BAB, Saves or stat boosts as a result of there increasing HD (animal companions and special mounts do) . These passages are absent with regard to Psycrystals, instead we have a passage that states, "A psicrystal is treated as a construct for the purposes of all effects that depend on its type." That clearly tells me that these special restrictions must be stated when they apply and are not applied in the case of psycrystals. Also if you look carefully at the descriptions of the psycrystal in the Psion entry, then you find that it allows the special powers of a psycrystal to be determined by the total number of levels in psionic classes. That would include PsyWarrior obviously. That same area also tells us that the saves of a psycrystal are the same as it's master. There is no mention of feats or BAB. But if you look at the description of a PsyCrystal in the psionic monster's entry: A psicrystal’s characteristics depend on its master. Its Hit Dice are equal to its master’s Hit Dice (counting only levels in psion or wilder), its hit points are equal to half its master’s, and its saving throw bonuses are the same as its master’s.. Earlier that passage also tells us that a psycrystal is a construct. To me the obvious connections are that you simply treat a psycrystal as a constuct with 1/2 master's HP and masters base saves and masters skills. Otherwise you add up the levels in psion and wilder then calculate the total HD and that determines BAB, feats and stat boosts as appropreat for a construct of the given HD. In effect, psions and wilders have psycrystals that gain in bab and feats while the psywarrios do not. In many other respects they are the same as familiars and the same for psywarriors and psions. Tough shake, but that's the RAW.
King Uther 02-14-06, 12:36 AM	Edit: For proper format: Q: Can you share certain spells(Resist Energy/Polymorph), allowing the familiar to benefit in a different way than the caster? A: No, as you are sharing the spell. It must be the same effect. Q: Can you dismiss a spell that you share with your familiar but leave the effect on the familiar? A: No, of course not. The reason I brought this up is because of Pun-Pun the kobold, a flawed build supposedly super powerful(but is not as much as it says for 3 reasons). It is still doable, but definitely not as quickly or as powerful as the build suggests.
Vathelokai 02-15-06, 08:31 AM	Edit: For proper format: Q: Can you share certain spells(Resist Energy/Polymorph), allowing the familiar to benefit in a different way than the caster? A: No, as you are sharing the spell. It must be the same effect. Q: Can you dismiss a spell that you share with your familiar but leave the effect on the familiar? A: No, of course not. The reason I brought this up is because of Pun-Pun the kobold, a flawed build supposedly super powerful(but is not as much as it says for 3 reasons). It is still doable, but definitely not as quickly or as powerful as the build suggests. Here would be the specific questions... assuming a decent level mystic theurge... If you share false life with the familiar, how are the temp hp distributed? If you share a CLW cast on yourself, how are the hp distributed? If you share bulls strength with a familiar, do you both gain the boost? Is the boost split between the two of you? Do only one of you gain the boost? If your familiar is hit with a targeted dispel, does it dispel only spells that are effecting it, or does is dispel only the shared effects, or does it effect any spell on you or your familiar? The rules of the game articles (specificly the articles Polymorphing 2: Alter Self, (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040518a) Polymorph 4: Other shapeshifting, (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040601a) and Familiars 2: Special abilities (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050913a)) makes some questionable calls on how to deal with these issues. Since the SRD is lacking in a description of what it means to "share a spell," should we follow the "rules of the game" or make a house rule/clarification?
Luni 02-19-06, 08:56 PM	Magical Equipment Slots HumanoidFrom the SRD One headband, hat, helmet, or phylactery on the head One pair of eye lenses or goggles on or over the eyes One amulet, brooch, medallion, necklace, periapt, or scarab around the neck One vest, vestment, or shirt on the torso One robe or suit of armor on the body (over a vest, vestment, or shirt) One belt around the waist (over a robe or suit of armor) One cloak, cape, or mantle around the shoulders (over a robe or suit of armor) One pair of bracers or bracelets on the arms or wrists One glove, pair of gloves, or pair of gauntlets on the hands One ring on each hand (or two rings on one hand) One pair of boots or shoes on the feet AnimalsFrom Wild Life (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031125a) One Armor or Barding One skull cap or helm One pair of lenses or goggles One collar One saddle or jacket One belt or strap worn in front of or over the haunches One pectoral or harness worn over the chest or shoulders One pair foreleg bracers One pair of foreleg shoes or mitts -- hoofed creatures wear shoes and creatures with paws wear mitts Two rings -- creatures with toes wear rings on the toes and creatures with hooves wear "rings" just above fore hooves One pair of hind leg shoes or mitts -- hoofed creatures wear shoes and creatures with paws wear mitts Psicrystals First, Psicrystals can't carry anything unless it has self-propulsion turned on. If it does have self propulsion activated it's carrying capacity is Light Load: 0-1.5 lbs. Medium Load: 3 lbs. Heavy Load: 5 lbs. That said, since it doesn't have arms (only 2 sets of legs) it can not carry items to hand to its owner. You can use the same slots as the animals above. Clearly, use common sense for non-humanoid equipment. Snakes can't wear magic shoes or rings for example. If you aren't sure if some equipment would be allowed, PM me, and I'll post a yes or no answer in the tavern.
Luni 02-20-06, 02:26 AM	Tricks: Animals can learn any trick in the Players Handbook when bought. If you want to learn any of the following tricks, you must have a Handle Animal Mod of DC-10 to train the animal yourself. I'll send this thought up to Cat for a yay or nay, because who trains a horse to Pin? Ambush (DC 15): The animal hides using the Hide skill to the best of its ability. It then stays in one place and attacks the first creature to come near it, unless it has been previously trained to recognize the creature as a friend. Bull Rush (DC 15): The animal attempts to bull rush a designated creature. Flush Out (DC 20): The animal moves into an area and, if it encounters any creatures, it makes noise and feints attacks toward the creature in an attempt to drive it to you. If the animal makes the creature move, there is a 50% chance that the quarry moves directly toward you. Otherwise, the quarry veers to your left or right (equal chance for each). Does not work on gladiators! They get to make there own decision. Overrun (DC 15): The animal attempts to overrun a designated creature. If the animal has the trample special ability, it uses that ability against the creature if the creature is small enough to be affected. Pin (DC 15): The animal attempts to grapple and pin a designated creature. Stalk (DC 20): The animal follows a designated creature using the Hide and Move Silently skills to the best of its ability. It stays with the target until you call it off (normally accomplished with a whistle). If attacked by the designated creature, the animal attacks. If attacked by a different creature or severely wounded, the animal attempts to return to you. 1: If you share false life with the familiar, how are the temp hp distributed? 2: If you share a CLW cast on yourself, how are the hp distributed? 3: If you share bulls strength with a familiar, do you both gain the boost? Is the boost split between the two of you? Do only one of you gain the boost? 4: If your familiar is hit with a targeted dispel, does it dispel only spells that are effecting it, or does is dispel only the shared effects, or does it effect any spell on you or your familiar? Next quote answers the next 3 questions: In spite of the foregoing, some aspects of the master and familiar always remain distinct. The master and familiar have two separate pools of hit points. If the master casts a cure wounds spell, the hit points bestowed must go either to the master or to the familiar. If points are left over after the chosen recipient reaches full hit points, the excess can go to the other pool. In a similar fashion, the master and familiar both have their own ability scores, and magic that enhances or improves an ability score must all go to either the master or the familiar. 1: One of you gets the temp hp. The spell can not be shared. 2: Only one of you gets healed. Any excess healing gets transferred over. 3: The spell only affects one or the other. 4: Dispel will dispel any effect currently on the familiar. It only destroys the familiars copy of the shared spell though.
LLMadCow 02-20-06, 09:32 AM	Hey gang! I am back and doing better. Internal issues are being resolved and I will be posting here again shortly. If there is anything you want my input on, just post away, otherwise, I will be trying to scour the thread and get caught up with older stuff, weighing in where I see reason to. LLMC
Gonbow 02-20-06, 01:55 PM	AnimalsFrom Wild Life (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031125a) One pair of foreleg shoes or mitts -- hoofed creatures wear shoes and creatures with paws wear mitts Two rings -- creatures with toes wear rings on the toes and creatures with hooves wear "rings" just above fore hooves One pair of hind leg shoes or mitts -- hoofed creatures wear shoes and creatures with paws wear mitts Psicrystals First, Psicrystals can't carry anything unless it has self-propulsion turned on. If it does have self propulsion activated it's carrying capacity is Light Load: 0-0.75 lbs. Medium Load: 1.5 lbs. Heavy Load: 2.5 lbs. That said, since it doesn't have arms (only legs) it can not carry items to hand to its owner. You can use the same slots as the animals above. Clearly, use common sense for non-humanoid equipment. Snakes can't wear magic shoes or rings for example. If you aren't sure if some equipment would be allowed, PM me, and I'll post a yes or no answer in the tavern. (Note: Some snippage from the qoute) Given: You can use the same slots as the animals above. Further question: Are Psicrystals 'hoofed', 'toed' or 'other'? Given the suggested description, Psicrystals are vaguely insectile in appearance, or so it would seem to me, which raises the same question. Do Giant Bees have 'toes' or 'hooves'?
Macbrea 02-20-06, 02:43 PM	Hey, so. I never actually got an answer on something. Am a required to do a full quest to have Lord Frost's birthday? He is a 5 year old dragon and I would like to have him have a birthday. This effect costs me credits because he both goes up in HD and LA. This I am not particularly worried about but does he need to go on a full three week quest in order to do this?
SauroGrenom 02-20-06, 02:59 PM	Luni, Take a look at this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20020322a) article. I know it's from 3.0 edition, but it's the only pictures I could find that show psicrystal's with self propulsion active. That suggests to me that the psi-crystal is at least a quardaped and would have carrying capacities about twice what you have listed. In addition the shown psicrystals have tails that are mentioned as being able to hold and manipulate things. If you don't buy that I'd like to point out that the little guy's can climb, so they could reasonably grip things with there little ectoplasmic feet and mabey carry things for there masters (and look like a dungbeetle, a cockroach or an ant).
Luni 02-20-06, 06:25 PM	(Note: Some snippage from the qoute) Given: You can use the same slots as the animals above. Further question: Are Psicrystals 'hoofed', 'toed' or 'other'? Given the suggested description, Psicrystals are vaguely insectile in appearance, or so it would seem to me, which raises the same question. Do Giant Bees have 'toes' or 'hooves'? Well, they have "hooves" since they don't have toes. Same goes for arachnids and other insects. Luni, Take a look at this article. I know it's from 3.0 edition, but it's the only pictures I could find that show psicrystal's with self propulsion active. That suggests to me that the psi-crystal is at least a quardaped and would have carrying capacities about twice what you have listed. In addition the shown psicrystals have tails that are mentioned as being able to hold and manipulate things. If you don't buy that I'd like to point out that the little guy's can climb, so they could reasonably grip things with there little ectoplasmic feet and mabey carry things for there masters (and look like a dungbeetle, a cockroach or an ant). Psicyrstals sound like a floating rock to me. I don't have a copy of the XPH handy, but I'll track down someone who does to see what it's picture is in the monster part of the book. Ants carry things in there mouths, not there legs. Lots of ants up here, but I've never seen a cockroach. The tails pictured are a benefit of the feat mentioned in the article. I will agree that psicrystals are quadrepeds, so I modified the carrying capacity above. Hey, so. I never actually got an answer on something. Am a required to do a full quest to have Lord Frost's birthday? He is a 5 year old dragon and I would like to have him have a birthday. This effect costs me credits because he both goes up in HD and LA. This I am not particularly worried about but does he need to go on a full three week quest in order to do this? I'm thinking on this Macbrea. I"ll get back to you.
SoulLord 02-21-06, 02:40 PM	Does moving away from the area of a summon Swarm spell end the spell? Relevant Information Summon Swarm range: close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Duration: Concentration +2 rounds You summon a swarm of bats, rats, or spiders (your choice), which attacks all other creatures within its area. (You may summon the swarm so that it shares the area of other creatures.) If no living creatures are within its area, the swarm attacks or pursues the nearest creature as best it can. The caster has no control over its target or direction of travel. Conjuration Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or some form of energy to you (the summoning subschool), actually transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling), heal (healing), transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation), or create objects or effects on the spot (creation). Creatures you conjure usually, but not always, obey your commands. A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it. The creature or object must appear within the spell’s range, but it does not have to remain within the range.
Luni 02-21-06, 05:02 PM	Does moving away from the area of a summon Swarm spell end the spell? Relevant Information Summon Swarm range: close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Duration: Concentration +2 rounds You summon a swarm of bats, rats, or spiders (your choice), which attacks all other creatures within its area. (You may summon the swarm so that it shares the area of other creatures.) If no living creatures are within its area, the swarm attacks or pursues the nearest creature as best it can. The caster has no control over its target or direction of travel. Conjuration Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or some form of energy to you (the summoning subschool), actually transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling), heal (healing), transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation), or create objects or effects on the spot (creation). Creatures you conjure usually, but not always, obey your commands. A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it. The creature or object must appear within the spell’s range, but it does not have to remain within the range. The discussion was on whether you needed to maintain Line of Effect and Range on the spell. I couldn't find an answer. :( I did send an email to custserv to get a response from them. Until I hear back from WoTC, you don't have to maintain Line of Effect and Range. I think it is abusive, but I can't find anything that says yay or nay. If anyone does, let me know. The correct answer is listed below as being in the Players Handbook. Pg 179. You have to maintain range to the spell's effect.
MindWandererB 02-21-06, 05:14 PM	The discussion was on whether you needed to maintain Line of Effect and Range on the spell. I couldn't find an answer. :( I did send an email to custserv to get a response from them. Until I hear back from WoTC, you don't have to maintain Line of Effect and Range. I think it is abusive, but I can't find anything that says yay or nay. If anyone does, let me know.Well, here's something. Under Magic: Duration: Concentration it says "If a target moves out of range, the spell acts as if your concentration had been broken."
Luni 02-21-06, 05:18 PM	Well, here's something. Under Magic: Duration: Concentration it says "If a target moves out of range, the spell acts as if your concentration had been broken." Where do you see that? I've searched the SRD and I don't see that sentence at all.
Mal-2 02-21-06, 05:46 PM	Where do you see that? I've searched the SRD and I don't see that sentence at all. I see it in the Player's Handbook (pg 176, right hand column, under the description for Duration: Concentration). It's also in the Psionic Power section of the SRD, under the description of powers with the duration of concentration. I checked the official WotC SRD, and it's not in the magic section there either. Weird. Anyway, here's the quote from the Psionics section of the SRD, which is essentially the same as what's in the PHB: Concentration The power lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a power is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when manifesting a power can also break your concentration while you’re maintaining one, causing the power to end. You can’t manifest a power while concentrating on another one. Some powers may last for a short time after you cease concentrating. In such a case, the power keeps going for the given length of time after you stop concentrating, but no longer. Otherwise, you must concentrate to maintain the power, but you can’t maintain it for more than a stated duration in any event. If a target moves out of range, the power reacts as if your concentration had been broken. For comparision, here's the same section out of the Magic Overview: Concentration The spell lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can also break your concentration while you’re maintaining one, causing the spell to end. You can’t cast a spell while concentrating on another one. Sometimes a spell lasts for a short time after you cease concentrating.
Luni 02-21-06, 06:06 PM	Ok, then the Players Handbook is right, and my ruiling is wrong. I'll go change it.
SauroGrenom 02-22-06, 01:04 AM	Alright since the cat is out of the bag, I'll ask my question here. When you apply a template to a creature, and that template has new naturl attacks, what happens to the old natural attacks, and what is the full attack sequence like after the template is applied? Specificially take the Treant and apply the Half-Dragon template: The Treant has 2 slam attacks for 2d6 bludgeon damage as primary natural attacks. The Half-Dragon Template has two claw attacks for 1d8 slashing damage and a bite attack for 2d6 bludgeon and piercing damage. The half-Dragon template says this:Attack: A half-dragon has two claw attacks and a bite attack, and the claws are the primary natural weapon. If the base creature can use weapons, the half-dragon retains this ability. A half-dragon fighting without weapons uses a claw when making an attack action. When it has a weapon, it usually uses the weapon instead. Full Attack: A half-dragon fighting without weapons uses both claws and its bite when making a full attack. If armed with a weapon, it usually uses the weapon as its primary attack and its bite as a natural secondary attack. If it has a hand free, it uses a claw as an additional natural secondary attack. The section on improving monsters says this about attacks:Attack and Full Attack: Most templates do not change a creature’s attack bonus or modes of attack, even when the creature’s type changes (the creature’s base attack bonus is the same as a creature of the original type). Of course, any change in ability scores may affect attack bonuses. If Strength or Dexterity changes, use the new modifier to determine attack bonuses. A change in a monster’s size also changes its attack bonus; see Table: Changes to Statistics by Size. Simply my question is this. What is the full attack sequence for this creature, and how much damage and what type of damage is caused and which attacks are secondary. In my discussions with others, it has become important to think about whether the Treant's slam attacks are executed with its hands. I say not necessarily. This is evidenced by the trample ability of the Treant that causes slam attack damage modified by 1.5 times strength as is typical for a single natural attack in one round. The treant could potentially slam with any part of its body(branches, elbows, legs...) as indicated by this passage from the natural weapon description:Slap or Slam: The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage. In any case whatever is decided, an elder ruling would be appreciated. The need isn't very pressing, because ECL15 is not going to open for a while. None the less I'd like to hear what the rules guru's have to say. Sauro
Prisonlords 02-23-06, 11:46 AM	Everyone, After a discussion between myself and LLMC, we have determined that a further clarification of the hiding rules needs to be made. The Court Decisions post has already been updated this information, but I wanted to announce it so that you can make sure and use this in your fights this week. Q: How does hiding work in the arena? A: You are autospotted if you leave cover/concealment and your opponent has line of sight to you. This includes moving from cover/concealment to cover/concealment. The exception to this condition is that if you are moving from cover/concealment to cover/concealment and are within 1 ft/rank of cover/concealment at all times, you are still considered hidden and an opposed check would be required for anyone with line of sight to see you. As you can see, it is not a big change, but it does clarify the fact that the intent of the 1 ft/rank rule is to allow sneaking characters the ability to move about the arena without losing their stealth. As always, if you have any further questions on the issue, feel free to PM Prisonlords. This message cross-posted in the FotW, Tavern, and AaE threads
Macbrea 02-23-06, 12:58 PM	Under the house rule for Hiding: "You cannot hide within effects provided by spells or items that affect only you and give concealment or cover such as Blur, Concealing Amorpha and a Tower Shield." Exactly, how are we able to hide according to these rules in Invisibility? It only grants total concealment and +20 hide check. Obviously, something is wanky here. If Invisibility is fine to hide within and not be autospotted. What spells/effects are exceptions to the rule? Examples of items that give concealment: Feat: Cloak Dance Spell: Invisbility Effect: Smoke Spell: Obsuring Mist Spell: Blur Power: Concealing Amorphia Spell: Greater Invisbility Spell: Darkness Spell: Deeper Darkness
Book5 02-23-06, 08:58 PM	Q:Do psicrystals gain their own feats and their own BAB? Q:Do psiwarrior levels count when figuring a psicrystals HD? If not, then how do you deal with a ECL1 psiwarrior with a psicrystal? A: Psicrystals do not gain feats. The sample Psicrystal only has Alertness, which would normally be a bonus feat. I'm just going to suggest we treat Psicrystals as familiars for BAB. A PsyWarrior would get the same benefit as a Psion/Wilder, though prestige classes don't count. "bad call" the srd uses the word "only" in connection to 2 classes - Psion and Wilder. RAW = HD = Feats. RAI... I think the psiwarrior was probably not included in there for a reason.. they are the "lesser" psions... and again its not raw. CoCo can say the Psiwarrior qualifies but.. thats a core-break. The suggestion to treat the psicrystals as familiars not only compleatly dissregards the RAW, but also violates the RAI as well. Psicrystals should not be the "psionic familiar." They should be the "psi crystal." The increase in HD is "balanced" (if balance needs to be justified here) in the fact that a bat can beat the snot ("ectoplasm") out of a psicrystal anyday. Not to mention they have to manifest to .. move! "AntiPsionic Sphere?" The birds can still fly in a antimagic sphere.. is there a antipsionic sphere? rhetorical question Nonetheless The psicrystal is a different class feature. Real HD always = Feats. The pertinant line uses a word that can only mean ... "only" ... SO do what you will ... but that A: is "wrong by RAW" period. I am not yelling at you Luni - I'm just letting you know that Sarou is right by RAW. He has done his research and analyzed the logic correctly. As a challenge (/excersize) "find me a single other instance of any character getting real (permanant) HD without getting the feats. Not emulated HD, not temporary HD, not effective HD, not HD for the purposes of ... but ... HD = "Psion and Wilder levels ... only." colors added because LL told me not to shout... I dont think it helps btw. just makes me feel like I'm grading your term paper or something.
Luni 02-23-06, 10:03 PM	Don't worry, Book. I'm currently collected a bunch of stuff about Psycrystals to make an affirmitave decision about it. The rules are very unclear about psicrystals. Psicrystal's are weird, as they are explained under a class section, instead of the feat itself, which would make more sense. I don't think everyone is going to be happy with my results, but I don't think I'm ever going to appease everyone.
SauroGrenom 02-23-06, 10:25 PM	Q: Do psicrystals gain their own feats and their own BAB? Q: Do psiwarrior levels count when figuring a psicrystals HD? If not, then how do you deal with a ECL1 psiwarrior with a psicrystal? A: Psicrystals do not gain feats. The sample Psicrystal only has Alertness, which would normally be a bonus feat. I'm just going to suggest we treat Psicrystals as familiars for BAB. A PsyWarrior would get the same benefit as a Psion/Wilder, though prestige classes don't count. You are entitled to your interpretation, but I ask that you reconsider. I'd like to question the basic premist that the psicrystal is a psionic version of the familiar. I can see that there are some simularities, but there are also clear differences. For example a familiar never gains telepathic speach, nor does it have darkvision, nor does it have hardness... and the list goes on. There is no example in the entire core rules system that I can think of where a creature gains HD and does not gain BAB, feats, and stat boosts because of it. Animal companions gain these benefits when there HD increases, Special mounts gains these benefits, monsters, PC's, NPC's, Divine Beings... everything. Familiars are clearly said to not actually gain HD. They are treated as having higher HD for effects that depend on HD, but the creature does not actually gain HD. They also gain a special increase to there skills, saves and BAB that is associated with there relationship with the master. Psicrystals gains a few of these same benefits that familiares have, but there are clear limits on where the simularities stop and IMHO the should not be ignored. Psicrystals gain actual HD to equal the HD of there master, as determined by your rulings. The fact that a crocodile has only skill focus and alertness as listed feats does not prevent a 10th level druid from having a crocodile animal companion with improved natural attack for example. It should also be considered that the psicrystal listed in the SRD is an example for a 1st level manifester (stated just below the stat table). It does not have a BAB listed as being the same as the masters (as in the case of the HD). This suggests that the BAB is calculated independant of the master in the typical way as determined by HD. The +0 BAB and that line about the 1st level manifester both suggest that the example crystal has only one HD and would only be entitled to one feat as a result. All other advanced creatures gain feats with advanced HD, so should a psicrystal. In many ways that are important I think we should not consider the psicrystal to be just a psionic familiar. It is a new kind of creature and there is a similar but distinct set of rules that govern the abilities of this creature. The SRD actually provides all the needed rules, but we are often tempted to see the simularity with familiars and thus to determine that the psicrystal is just like a familiar. Try to keep them seperate in the ways that they should be. and look carefully at what is said about a psi-crystal and apply the usual conventions where there are no rules to change them. Edit: Luni's post came in while I was typing this up. I hope that some of the things I point out are a part of your considerations.
lonewolf 02-24-06, 10:52 AM	Huge or larger creatures are unaffected by a tanglefoot bag. Is an expanded halfgiant(size large+ powerful build) also unaffected? I hope for a fast answer, since this affects this weeks tactics.
nickbeat 02-24-06, 12:11 PM	What is the effect of verbal casting on listen checks? I'm trying to sort out pinpointing the location of an invisible caster.
Zevox 02-24-06, 12:20 PM	What is the effect of verbal casting on listen checks? I'm trying to sort out pinpointing the location of an invisible caster. No need for this one to be in the Elder thread. You simply roll a listen check vs DC 0 (the DC listed for talking) + distance modifiers. If the listener beats it by 20+, as per usual, they pintpoint the caster, and if by less they hear him and know his general area (as per the charts in the rules thread). Zevox
NiQil 02-24-06, 01:58 PM	As per the new 3.5 FAQ, I want to make a change to the Court Decisions regarding natural attacks, flurry of blows and grappling, and I want to see if I am interpretting what is there the way everyone else is. Here is what is currently in the Court Decisions: Q: How do natural weapons work in a grapple? A: Natural weapons may be used in the "Attack your Opponent" option to grant an attack with each part of a Natural Attack routine, with a -4 penalty to each attack...or they can be used to deal damage with the "Grapple your Opponent" option that can be used a number of times based on Base Attack Bonus. This damage is the same type of the Natural Attack (usually lethal). Q: How does grappling work in combination with a monk's Flurry of Blows? A: A monk may make a grappling check for each attack allowed to him by his Flurry of Blows once in a grapple. In the round used to initiate a grapple, he may still only make a single grapple check, just like anyone else, as per the grapple rules. Here is what I am going to enter: Q: How do natural weapons work in a grapple? A: As per the 3.5 FAQ, under normal circumstances, a creature can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling (and it takes a –4 penalty on such attacks; PH 156). A creature that chooses to make grapple checks in place of attacks (that is, to damage its opponent, escape from the grapple, move, pin its opponent, or use its opponent’s weapon) is allowed one grapple check for every attack that its base attack bonus would allow (even if it doesn’t normally make multiple attacks in this manner). A creature with BAB +0 to +5 may make one grapple check in place of an attack, BAB +6 to +10 two, BAB +11 to +15 three, and BAB +16 to +20 four. Q: How does grappling work in combination with a monk's Flurry of Blows? A: Grappling normally allows one attack or grapple check for every attack that is supplied by the combatants base attack bonus. Since a monk's Flurry of Blows uses more than the monk's BAB to determine the number of attacks allowed to a monk in a full attack, it is not allowed to be used in a grapple. Yes....this is almost a complete 180 from what we have been using up to this point, but the change to the FAQ shows that our interpretations were inaccurate, in my opinion. I would appreciate feedback on this issue. This message cross posted in the Tavern and Ask an Elder threads
LLMadCow 02-25-06, 03:17 AM	Is an expanded halfgiant(size large+ powerful build) also unaffected? I hope for a fast answer, since this affects this weeks tactics. In all matters concerning Half-Giants, powerful build never actually changes their size. Tanglefoot Bag: [Yadda-yadda] Huge or larger creatures are unaffected by a tanglefoot bag. [Yadda-yadda] & Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category. A Tanglefoot Bag does not qualify as an opposed check. A Tanglefoot Bag does not qualify as a creature's special attack. If a Half-Giant were to spend 9PP in Enlarge, they would be immune to a tanglefoot bag. LLMC
Gonbow 02-26-06, 01:48 AM	Can Armor Spikes be added onto a suit of armor after it is constructed, or must they be built in at the original time of construction? Can a suit of armor have more than one set of armor spikes? (If not, why not?) EDIT: Additional Questions How does Percise Strike interact with natural weapons? Specifically, is a claw attack considered 'in the other hand'? How about a bite attack? Crystal Masks (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicItemsU.html) specifically state that they fit medium/small humanoides, would a version that fits nonhumanoids cost credits (unlike other magic/psionic items)?
Astron the Wizard 02-26-06, 01:04 PM	How do I participate in the guild wars? I know this may be on the wrong thread, but I wasn't sure where to go. :confused:
Zevox 02-26-06, 02:15 PM	How do I participate in the guild wars? I know this may be on the wrong thread, but I wasn't sure where to go. :confused: This would've been better in the Tavern thread (for future reference), but the answer to your question goes like this: First, you need to make a character (noticed you don't have one yet). Then that character needs to join one of the seven guilds around here (meaning he must meet the prerequisites for one and quest or miniquest for membership). Then whichever guild he joins needs to construct a War Room building and actually start fighting one of the other guilds. Currently none of the guilds has a War Room, and the one with plans to build one at some point in the relatively near future (the Warfare Alliance) isn't hostile towards any of the other guilds, so this may well take a while. Once all that has happened, your character can participate in some of the assault operations the guild performs. Zevox
SauroGrenom 02-26-06, 02:20 PM	How do I participate in the guild wars? I know this may be on the wrong thread, but I wasn't sure where to go. :confused: Join a guild! That's all. The guilds have been getting off the ground rather slowly, but soon we will begin to use guild action targeted at eachother. That fun will begin to happen frequently in the comming two or three months. BTW, Take a look at the PSI Consortium. It's always good to get yourself affiliated with the best early in the game.
lonewolf 02-27-06, 04:11 AM	Can animals out of a bag of tricks be ordered around without Handle Animal?
Sunwolf 02-27-06, 09:34 AM	Would the bonus to speed from the 'quickness' armor enchantment stack with the bonus from boots of striding and springing (an enhancement bonus to land speed)? I have include the relevant SRD quotes below. Quickness This kind of armor increases the wearer’s speed by 5 feet. Thus, a character whose normal speed in armor is 20 feet moves 25 feet in armor of quickness. Faint psychoportation; ML 4th; Craft Psionic Arms and Armor, burst; Price +1 bonus. Boots of Striding and Springing These boots increase the wearer’s base land speed by 10 feet. In addition to this striding ability (considered an enhancement bonus), these boots allow the wearer to make great leaps. She can jump with a +5 competence bonus on Jump checks. Faint transmutation; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, longstrider, creator must have 5 ranks in the Jump skill; Price 5,500 gp; Weight 1 lb. The reason I ask this question is that the burst power (underlying the quickness enhancement) is an enhancement bonus but the quickness enhancement is unnamed -- it also seems to apply to all movement modes.
Astron the Wizard 02-28-06, 03:56 PM	What if I own my own guild, I understand I need a War Room, but do I have to join another guild? :confused: And do I need a character since I rule my guild? And are there alligences in the Guild WArs :confused:
Zevox 02-28-06, 04:03 PM	What if I own my own guild, I understand I need a War Room, but do I have to join another guild? :confused: And do I need a character since I rule my guild? And are there alligences in the Guild WArs :confused: As far as I know you're not allowed to create your own Guild - the seven that Cat set up are what you get to choose from (else we'd likely have way too many Guilds). Regardless though you need a character to be able to do just about anything - the only things you can do without a character are Pitlording, Questlording, Campaignlording, or helping to run one of the various installations (i.e. being a Guildlord, Prinsonlord, etc, but all those positions are full right now). And yes, Guilds are allowed to form alliances, though formal ones that let them fight alongside each other require them to build a Conference Chamber (which again none of the Guilds have built). If you want to know what Guilds are currently friendly towards each other, check out the Guild threads, most of them list thier attitudes towards the other guilds there. Zevox
nickbeat 03-03-06, 04:55 PM	What is the errata on the gray elf? Do they get the +2 strength -2 Int as well as the +2 Dex and -2 Con? All the other elves say "except where noted". My thought is that this was an error. What is the CoCo ruling on this? Nick
lonewolf 03-03-06, 05:00 PM	What is the errata on the gray elf? Do they get the +2 strength -2 Int as well as the +2 Dex and -2 Con? All the other elves say "except where noted". My thought is that this was an error. What is the CoCo ruling on this? Nick Gray elves gain -2 Str, -2 Con, +2 Dex, +2 Int. No errata and no error.
Luni 03-07-06, 11:19 AM	Here is my late decision on Psicrystals. Like always, feel free to point out any concerns and errors. The example Psicrystal is from the SRD, and is based off a first level psion. Size/Type: Diminutive Construct Construct Traits A psicrystal has immunity to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, necromancy effects, mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects), and any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless it also works on objects or is harmless. It is not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, or energy drain. It cannot heal damage, but it can be repaired. Psicrystals do not have the usual construct traits of darkvision and low-light vision. Hit Dice: As master’s HD (hp ½ master’s) At this point, the descriptive text in the description is wrong. The HD of a Psicrystal is always the same as his master's HD, and not just Psion/Wilder levels Initiative: +2 Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), climb 20 ft.* Armor Class: 16 (+4 size, +2 Dex*), touch 16, flat-footed 14 Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-17 A Psicyrstals Base Attack Bonus (BAB) is the same as a construct (Psychic warrior). It has a -17 penalty on Grapple Checks (-12 size, -5 Str) Attack: — Full Attack: — Space/Reach: 1 ft./0 ft. Special Attacks: — Special Qualities: Construct traits, hardness 8, psicrystal granted abilities (improved evasion, personality, self-propulsion, share powers, sighted, telepathic link) Psicrystal granted abilities are examined further below. Saves: As master’s saves Abilities: Str 1*, Dex 15*, Con Ø, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 10 Skills: Climb +14*, Listen +6, Move Silently +6, Search +2, Spot +6 As owner plus mininum 4 ranks in Listen, Move Silently, Search and Spot. Also, a Psicrystal with Self-Proplusion added has a bonus to Climb of +10. I think this example Psion took climb as a skill. Psicrystals do not get skill points of their own. Feats: Alertness All psicrystals start with Alertness as their 1 HD feat. Additional feats may be taken as their master gains levels. Psicrystal Granted Abilities: Psicrystals A psicrystal grants special abilities to its owner, as shown on the Psicrystal Special Abilities table below. In addition, a psicrystal has a personality (being a fragment of the owner’s personality), which gives its owner a bonus on certain types of checks or saving throws, as given on the Psicrystal Personalities table below. These special abilities and bonuses apply only when the owner and the psicrystal are within 1 mile of each other. Psicrystal abilities are based on the owner’s levels in psionic classes. Levels from other classes do not count toward the owner’s level for purposes of psicrystal abilities. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Psicrystals Abilities are granted by having levels in any Psionic Class (Psion, Psychic Warrior, Soulknife, Wilder). You still have to have Manifester Level 1 to get a Psicrystal though. Psionic Prestige Classes do not gain special abilities for their Psicrystals. Yes, it is unfair to War Minds and Psionic Fists. First, Psicrystals can't carry anything unless it has self-propulsion turned on. If it does have self propulsion activated it's carrying capacity is Light Load: 0-1.5 lbs. Medium Load: 3 lbs. Heavy Load: 5 lbs. That said, since it doesn't have arms (only 2 sets of legs) it can not carry items to hand to its owner. Magical Slots: One Armor One Vest One belt or strap worn in front of or over the haunches One pair foreleg bracers One pair of foreleg shoes Two rings -- carrying just below the bracers on their legs One pair of hind leg shoes Just use your imagination. To be added: "Unbodied and Psicrystals", "How far you can throw your psicrystal when it gets lippy", and anything else I missed.
SauroGrenom 03-07-06, 11:46 AM	Score! Excelent Luni! I'm in agreement on all counts. If I had a TT game, that's exactially how I would arbitrate it.
Luni 03-07-06, 11:51 AM	Can Armor Spikes be added onto a suit of armor after it is constructed, or must they be built in at the original time of construction? You can add them after construction. They can even be made of a different material then the armor. Can a suit of armor have more than one set of armor spikes? (If not, why not?) As the rules are written, you could have 100 different sets of armor spikes if you was paranoid about have them sundered. I'll go ask Cat to see if we should just limit it to one set of armor spikes per armor. That seems reasonable to me. EDIT: Additional Questions How does Precise Strike interact with natural weapons? Specifically, is a claw attack considered 'in the other hand'? How about a bite attack? When making a precise strike, a duelist cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield. A duelist’s precise strike only works against living creatures with discernible anatomies. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to a precise strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from a precise strike. At 10th level, the extra damage on a precise strike increases to +2d6. As written claws, talons, rakes, slams, hooves are all off hand in this case. A bite or gore would still be allowed. Crystal Masks (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicItemsU.html) specifically state that they fit medium/small humanoides, would a version that fits nonhumanoids cost credits (unlike other magic/psionic items)? Yes a version for Elans, Dromites, Planetouched or half-giant would cost credits. It would be similiar to buying Amulet of Protection (Ring of Protection) for your wizards snake familiar. Yes, it is silly that a troglodyte could wear the mask, but an elan couldn't. Can animals out of a bag of tricks be ordered around without Handle Animal? Yes! You can still use handle animal untrained as a charisma check. You just can't train your animals. Untrained If you have no ranks in Handle Animal, you can use a Charisma check to handle and push domestic animals, but you can’t teach, rear, or train animals. A druid or ranger with no ranks in Handle Animal can use a Charisma check to handle and push her animal companion, but she can’t teach, rear, or train other nondomestic animals. Would the bonus to speed from the 'quickness' armor enchantment stack with the bonus from boots of striding and springing (an enhancement bonus to land speed)? The reason I ask this question is that the burst power (underlying the quickness enhancement) is an enhancement bonus but the quickness enhancement is unnamed -- it also seems to apply to all movement modes. Excellent Question! Burst was left unnamed, so they do stack. Not all items are identical to the spells that make them. If you take a level of wilder and then go into another manifesting class can you use the benefits of the wilder's wild surge ability on the powers of the second class? Example: character takes a level of wilder and advances into the warmind prestige class. In a later fight he tries to wild surge a dissolving weapon power. Is this allowed? Sure, it is allowed. Another example is a mystic theruge taking the good domain, then casts an arcane spell that is also good, gains the +1 CL as well. You still have the change for Pschic Enervation though Under the house rule for Hiding: "You cannot hide within effects provided by spells or items that affect only you and give concealment or cover such as Blur, Concealing Amorpha and a Tower Shield." Exactly, how are we able to hide according to these rules in Invisibility? It only grants total concealment and +20 hide check. Obviously, something is wanky here. If Invisibility is fine to hide within and not be autospotted. What spells/effects are exceptions to the rule? Examples of items that give concealment: Feat: Cloak Dance Spell: Invisbility Effect: Smoke Spell: Obsuring Mist Spell: Blur Power: Concealing Amorphia Spell: Greater Invisbility Spell: Darkness Spell: Deeper Darkness I believe the house rule, is to say that you can only hide if an item or spell gives you total cover or concealment. Exception: Tower Shield. Therefore, you could hide in Cloak Dance, Invisibility, Smoke, Obscuring Mist, Greater Invisibility, Blacklight. You could also use Minor Image to create walls in the arena that you could hide behind as well for example.
Luni 03-07-06, 12:03 PM	Questions I do not have an answer for. There may be more, as I only scanned the last few pages. Q:When you share spells with a familiar, how does that work? One copy on you and one on your familiar? One spell that effects both of you? If it's one spell, how do you deal with cures, dispels, etc.? Q:How do you determine the price of NPC manifesting of psi powers? Specificly, what is the manifester lv. of an augmented power? Q: When you apply a template to a creature, and that template has new naturl attacks, what happens to the old natural attacks, and what is the full attack sequence like after the template is applied? Specificially take the Treant and apply the Half-Dragon template: The Treant has 2 slam attacks for 2d6 bludgeon damage as primary natural attacks. The Half-Dragon Template has two claw attacks for 1d8 slashing damage and a bite attack for 2d6 bludgeon and piercing damage.
MindWandererB 03-07-06, 02:34 PM	Some corections/comments/questions: Crystal Masks (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicItemsU.html) specifically state that they fit medium/small humanoides, would a version that fits nonhumanoids cost credits (unlike other magic/psionic items)? Yes a version for Elans, Dromites, Planetouched or half-giant would cost credits. It would be similiar to buying Amulet of Protection (Ring of Protection) for your wizards snake familiar. Yes, it is silly that a troglodyte could wear the mask, but an elan couldn't. Half-giants are Medium sized and thus do not need credits. Whoops, they aren't humanoids. Skills: Climb +14*, Listen +6, Move Silently +6, Search +2, Spot +6 As owner plus Listen, Move Silently, Search and Spot. Also, a Psicrystal with Self-Proplusion added has a bonus to Climb of +10. I think this example Psion took climb as a skill.The XPH says it's a racial bonus to climb of +8. Also, Psicrystals use their Dex bonus for Climb checks. That still only gets us to +10, so I agree that the other +4 must have come from the owner's ranks. Question: what skill ranks do they get as a function of level? Do they always max out Listen, MS, Search, and Spot, or do they only get skill points per HD as a function of their type and intelligence (1 point per level until they reach Int 10 at 9th level)? Feats: Alertness All psicrystals start with Alertness as their 1 HD feat. Additional feats may be taken as their master gains levels.Using their total HD, I assume. Everyone should note that psicrystals, oddly, do not have the psionic subtype and are thus ineligible for psionic feats.
Luni 03-07-06, 02:41 PM	Some corections/comments/questions: Half-giants are Medium sized and thus do not need credits. The XPH says it's a racial bonus to climb of +8. Also, Psicrystals use their Dex bonus for Climb checks. That still only gets us to +10, so I agree that the other +4 must have come from the owner's ranks. Question: what skill ranks do they get as a function of level? Do they always max out Listen, MS, Search, and Spot, or do they only get skill points per HD as a function of their type and intelligence (1 point per level until they reach Int 10 at 9th level)? Using their total HD, I assume. Everyone should note that psicrystals, oddly, do not have the psionic subtype and are thus ineligible for psionic feats. Humanoids is meant as a race type. Half-Giants aren't humanoid, they are giants. Psicrystals get a mininum of 4 ranks in Spot, Search, Move Silently and Listen. I'll go clarify it.
MindWandererB 03-07-06, 05:54 PM	Wait, so psicrystals gain feats as a function of their HD, but not skill points? I'm sorry, but that makes no sense.
Ariel23 03-08-06, 02:06 AM	Natural weapons in grapples: Please tell me I'm wrong: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dinosaur.htm#tyrannosaurus Full Attack: Bite +20 melee (3d6+13) should really read: Full Attack: Bite +20 melee (3d6+13) or Opposed Grapple +30 (3d6+13) +25 (3d6+13) +20 (3d6+13) The T-Rex is CR 8; a (medium) 8th level fighter with 22 STR (Gauntlets) and Improved Grapple has a grapple check of +18...he could die in one round with fairly average rolling. I won't go into the T-Rex's special bite/grab/swallow abilities as that's not the point of the FAQ. Greater Stone Golem would read: Opposed Grapple +52 (4d8+13) +47 (4d8+13) +42 (4d8+13) +37 (4d8+13) +32 (4d8+13) +27 (4d8+13) +22 (4d8+13) :shocked: A Gargantuan Old Red Dragon can Crush 16 people at a time 6 times per round: Crush: Opposed Grapple +52 (4d6+18) +47 (4d6+18) +42 (4d6+18) +37 (4d6+18) +32 (4d6+18) +27 (4d6+18) Hiding I still think Hide bonuses from size should substitute for Ranks. A single grain of sand is auto-spotted at any distance in the arena...
Luni 03-08-06, 12:40 PM	Wait, so psicrystals gain feats as a function of their HD, but not skill points? I'm sorry, but that makes no sense. Blame WoTC, they make the silly rules. Natural weapons in grapples: Please tell me I'm wrong: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dinosaur.htm#tyrannosaurus Full Attack: Bite +20 melee (3d6+13) should really read: Full Attack: Bite +20 melee (3d6+13) or Opposed Grapple +30 (3d6+13) +25 (3d6+13) +20 (3d6+13) The T-Rex is CR 8; a (medium) 8th level fighter with 22 STR (Gauntlets) and Improved Grapple has a grapple check of +18...he could die in one round with fairly average rolling. I won't go into the T-Rex's special bite/grab/swallow abilities as that's not the point of the FAQ I'm not sure if I understand you Ariel. A Tyrannosaurus only gets to make 1 grapple attack per round. I can't find it at the moment, but I believe monsters without classes only get to make 1 grapple attempt per natural weapon. Nitpicking: Tyrannosaurus and a T-Rex are two separate species of dinosaurs. :)
SoulLord 03-08-06, 01:18 PM	Blame WoTC, they make the silly rules. Natural weapons in grapples: Please tell me I'm wrong: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dinosaur.htm#tyrannosaurus Full Attack: Bite +20 melee (3d6+13) should really read: Full Attack: Bite +20 melee (3d6+13) or Opposed Grapple +30 (3d6+13) +25 (3d6+13) +20 (3d6+13) The T-Rex is CR 8; a (medium) 8th level fighter with 22 STR (Gauntlets) and Improved Grapple has a grapple check of +18...he could die in one round with fairly average rolling. I won't go into the T-Rex's special bite/grab/swallow abilities as that's not the point of the FAQ I'm not sure if I understand you Ariel. A Tyrannosaurus only gets to make 1 grapple attack per round. I can't find it at the moment, but I believe monsters without classes only get to make 1 grapple attempt per natural weapon. Nitpicking: Tyrannosaurus and a T-Rex are two separate species of dinosaurs. :) As per the latest changes in the FAQ document (Main35FAQv02222006.pdf) animals can only make multiple grapple checks based on their bab. or they can make a single natural attack at -4 while in a grapple
Ariel23 03-08-06, 01:35 PM	Can animals out of a bag of tricks be ordered around without Handle Animal?It "serves" the owner/drawer and "can follow any of the commands listed under Handle Animal." That seems fairly clearly worded to me that no skill ranks are necessary, in the vein of Summon Nature's Ally, which also does not require Handle Animal. I think it is an attempt to be less vague than the SNA verbiage which says "If you can communicate with the creature [...] you can direct it to perform other actions" (Can you tell it to dance, can you have it build a boat, search for secret doors, etc?) This gives a much more clear and concise list of what it can and cannot do. I'm not saying that a DM couldn't play it as requiring Handle Animal with little or no explanation necessary, but that particular version/interpretation must be read into the text, rather than taken from it. As per the latest changes in the FAQ document (Main35FAQv02222006.pdf) animals can only make multiple grapple checks based on their bab. or they can make a single natural attack at -4 while in a grappleRight, but the problem I have is that the creature was only granted one attack per round despite its BAB--intentionally by WotC for some mysterious purpose (probably balance). Why now give it 3 or 4 per round and throw those rules out the window? It was pointed out to me that the attack sequence does stop at 4/round and that it also deals only Unarmed Strike damage. In the case of giant things with 35 STR, the die rolled for damage becomes almost meaningless. The T-Rex is still doing 3d6+39 non-lethal with its grapple, and cannot fail to hit against most opponents which cannot effectively attack it back, as opposed to its standard 3d6+13 single bite attack. This just creates a very odd structure for many larger/stronger creatures, and for some creatures with Improved Grab/Grapple. Some become much more powerful, some become much less so. With or without the FAQ (but especially with it) I still think a Dragon's Crush needs a major overhaul. Presumably it's not being used by DM's, or more people would complain about it. No doubt claw/claw/bite/breathe or whatever is much more spectacular and fun to roll, but it's a pretty stupid choice when you could be Crushing instead.
Mal-2 03-08-06, 01:45 PM	It "serves" the owner/drawer and "can follow any of the commands listed under Handle Animal." That seems fairly clearly worded to me that no skill ranks are necessary, in the vein of Summon Nature's Ally, which also does not require Handle Animal. Hmm, I'm not sure I agree. If the animal knows all of the tricks on the Handle Animal list, I'd think they'd work just like any other animal that you'd like to have perform a trick that it already knows: Handle an Animal (DC 10) This task involves commanding an animal to perform a task or trick that it knows. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action.
SauroGrenom 03-08-06, 05:10 PM	Luni, I was updating my character's who have psicrystal's today and I found a small question that is not resolved in your post above. Do the psicrystal's gain stat increases with their BAB. I would say yes, but I'd like for you to chime in and make it official.
MindWandererB 03-08-06, 05:44 PM	Right, but the problem I have is that the creature was only granted one attack per round despite its BAB--intentionally by WotC for some mysterious purpose (probably balance). Why now give it 3 or 4 per round and throw those rules out the window? It was pointed out to me that the attack sequence does stop at 4/round and that it also deals only Unarmed Strike damage. In the case of giant things with 35 STR, the die rolled for damage becomes almost meaningless. The T-Rex is still doing 3d6+39 non-lethal with its grapple, and cannot fail to hit against most opponents which cannot effectively attack it back, as opposed to its standard 3d6+13 single bite attack. This just creates a very odd structure for many larger/stronger creatures, and for some creatures with Improved Grab/Grapple. Some become much more powerful, some become much less so. With or without the FAQ (but especially with it) I still think a Dragon's Crush needs a major overhaul. Presumably it's not being used by DM's, or more people would complain about it. No doubt claw/claw/bite/breathe or whatever is much more spectacular and fun to roll, but it's a pretty stupid choice when you could be Crushing instead.First of all, I don't think the lack of iterative grapples in the MM was intentional. Weapon-using monsters don't have iterative grapples listed even though they would use them. Second, the T-Rex has two options: get one grapple attempt with its bite (+30 grapple check, 3d6+13 damage), or get three grapple attempts with its unarmed strike (+30/+25/+20, based on its BAB, 1d6+13 damage). It's not very bright, so it's only likely to grapple after using its improved grab ability, which still requires it to hit. It's also likely to ue Swallow Whole rather than dealing grapple damage. Third, crushing isn't as great as you make it out. You can only do it by landing on the opponents, so it's impossible to do it multiple times in a round. If it maintains the grapple, it can take up to four iterative attacks with its unarmed strike damage (1d6, 1d8, or 2d6, +Str). Not terribly impressive for that CR.
Vathelokai 03-09-06, 08:49 AM	Can I use a feather token anchor outside of water? Can I use it to drop from a great height as a weapon? Is it an improvised weapon? How much does it weigh? FALLING OBJECTS Just as characters take damage when they fall more than 10 feet, so too do they take damage when they are hit by falling objects. Objects that fall upon characters deal damage based on their weight and the distance they have fallen. For each 200 pounds of an object’s weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet. Distance also comes into play, adding an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 10-foot increment it falls beyond the first (to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage). Objects smaller than 200 pounds also deal damage when dropped, but they must fall farther to deal the same damage. Use Table: Damage from Falling Objects to see how far an object of a given weight must drop to deal 1d6 points of damage.
Pittbull 03-09-06, 09:44 AM	Luni, I was updating my character's who have psicrystal's today and I found a small question that is not resolved in your post above. Do the psicrystal's gain stat increases with their BAB. I would say yes, but I'd like for you to chime in and make it official. Do they gain an increase of the BAB?- Luni would say: yes!- I believe. Contructs get base-attacks as a cleric. The psicrystal-discription says nothing about feats (but it get one for the first HD) and base-attack(it has a BAB of +0), it says nothing about stat-increase when gaininig levels. The only points that are mentioned are saves and skills (same as master).
SauroGrenom 03-09-06, 09:58 AM	Do they gain an increase of the BAB?- Luni would say: yes!- I believe. Contructs get base-attacks as a cleric. The psicrystal-discription says nothing about feats (but it get one for the first HD) and base-attack(it has a BAB of +0), it says nothing about stat-increase when gaininig levels. The only points that are mentioned are saves and skills (same as master). Let me clarify: Acoording to Luni's rulings, the crystal gains HD equal to its master's HD. Also accoring to Luni's ruling with this increase in HD the crystal gains BAB and feats. Other creatures gain stat increases at every 4th HD as well. If memory serves animal companions and special mounts gain stat increases with increased HD. Do Psicrystals gain that stat increase at every 4th HD?
Azarias 03-09-06, 12:04 PM	I don't want to butt in if a ruling has already been made, but I thought the following might be useful. What psicrystals get or don't get is unclear, but my own opinion, based on studying the srd, is that psicrystals don't gain skills based on Hit Dice, and shouldn't gain feats, HD-based base attacks or standard HD-advancement stat bonuses either. Neither familiars, companions, mounts nor psicrystals advance as standard creatures do - otherwise you get the old druid pc's does-my-wolf-buddy-get-Large-at-4HD question again, which has already been answered by wotc (it doesn't, because the text doesn't say it does). Familiar/companion/psicrystal/mount advancement are all different, all odd, and all distinct from the norm. As a general rule of thumb, the thing to do with all four is to give them exactly what it says they get in their descriptions - no more and no less. So: A) Companions get Hit Dice based on (but not necessarily equal to) their masters' druid class levels. From these HD they get (1) improved base attack, (2) improved saves, (3) bonus feats and (4) skill points. Companions also get the Str and Dex bonuses listed for animal companion advancement. They do not get the stat point/4HD that a normal monster would get, because the text does not say they do. They do not advance in size as normal animals would at higher HD, because the text does not say they do. Animal companions retain their type. B) Mounts gain extra Hit Dice based on (but not necessarily equal to) their masters' paladin class levels. From these HD they get (1) improved base attack, (2) improved saves, (3) bonus feats and (4) skill points. Mounts also get the Str bonuses listed for mount advancement. They do not get the stat point/4HD that a normal monster would get, because the text doesn't say they do. They do not advance in size as normal animals would at higher HD, because they text doesn't say they do. Animal mounts do not retain their type: they become magical beasts. [in other words, mounts and companions basically work the same way] C) Familiars retain the Hit Dice of the forms in which they are summoned. Their base attack, saves, skills and feats all remain those of the base form, according to the base HD figure. For the purpose of effects related to HD, however, a familiar uses its master's HD or its own, whichever is the greater. For the purpose of attacking, the familiar uses its own base attack or the master's, whichever is the greater. For the purpose of saving throws, the familiar uses its own base saves or the master's, whichever are the greater. For the purpose of skills, the familiar uses its own ranks or the master's, whichever are the greater, and only within its practical capabilities. Familiars do not gain additional feats, stat bonuses or anything else based on HD advancement, because their HD do not advance. Animal familiars do not retain their type: they become magical beasts. D) Psicrystals gain Hit Dice equal to their owners' psion or wilder class levels. Its characteristics do not depend on its Hit Dice, however, but on its owner's manifester levels. A psicrystal does not gain hit points according to its HD, instead gaining hit points equal to half those of its owner. A psicrystal does not gain skill points according to its HD, instead gaining 4 ranks each in Spot, Listen, Move Silently and Search and adding to these its owner's skill ranks. A psicrystal does not gain improved saves based on its HD, but uses its owner's base saves. [...up to this point all info is derived directly from the srd: what follows is partly my own interpretation:] A psicrystal does not gain a base attack based on its HD, instead using its owner's base attack bonus. A psicrystal does not gain feats based on its HD, instead gaining Alertness as a bonus feat during its creation. A psicrystal gains no benefit from its owner's feats. A psicrystal gains the Int bonuses listed for psicrystal advancement. A psicrystal does not gain the stat point/4 HD that a normal monster would get. Psicrystals are constructs. ** (A)(B) and (C) are all clear enough: (D) is more confusing. The second part of (D) is based on the following observations: a) a 'normal' 1 HD 6-Intelligence construct would gain 4 skill points. The srd text gives a new psicrystal 16 skill points. In other words, a psicrystal does not advance its skills according to standard advancement for an intelligent construct. Furthermore, the srd states that a psicrystal only ever has its owner's skills, plus those it begins with. Thus, a psicrystal does not gain skill points according to its HD as an independent 6-Intelligence Construct would do. (nb: the srd's example psicrystal has 4 ranks in Climb. Where these come from is a mystery. If they are the standard 4 ranks for a 1HD construct with 6 Intelligence, then the text of the srd is wrong. Srd text takes precedence over srd listings, however, therefore I suggest the 4 ranks in Climb are in error). b) Whereas mount and companion advancement are essentially similar, psicrystal advancement has more in common with that for familiars. Familiar advancement is the model for psicrystal advancement. Familiars do not gain any attributes of advanced HD, since they don't advance in HD. Psicrystals do advance in HD. However, it is stated twice in the srd text that their characteristcis and abilities depends on the owners' levels. Furthermore, those characteristics which are clearly detailed - hit points, skills and saving throws - are not based on the psicrystal's Hit Dice. On this evidence I suggest that a psicrystal's HD are largely irrelevant. It does not gain skills from HD, and I suspect does not gain feats either. It does not gain hit points from HD, and I suggest should not derive its base attack from HD either. Everything comes off the owner's levels. The HD are essentially pseudo-HD, like those of a wizard's bat - the product of the relationship between bat and master, not of the bat itself.
Macbrea 03-09-06, 01:47 PM	Actually, to quote the SRD: An animal companion gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice.
King Uther 03-09-06, 02:08 PM	It seems funny to be asking a question here. And I feel that Cat may be the only one to answer this. Q: Are the vampiric cohorts gained by the vampire count for experience penalties, or are they like a druid's animal companion? My initial feeling is they should not count as penalty based cohorts as the LA for a vampire is +8, and is probably factored into tha high of an adjustment.
nickbeat 03-09-06, 03:29 PM	Produce flame states it works like a thrown weapon. Does this mean it gets your Str bonus to damage as well?
SauroGrenom 03-09-06, 04:52 PM	On this evidence I suggest that a psicrystal's HD are largely irrelevant. It does not gain skills from HD, and I suspect does not gain feats either. It does not gain hit points from HD, and I suggest should not derive its base attack from HD either. Everything comes off the owner's levels. The HD are essentially pseudo-HD, like those of a wizard's bat - the product of the relationship between bat and master, not of the bat itself. Although I encourage you to participate... Please read the previous posts in this discussion. All of your points have been previously mentioned. To help you: Look at this and this where I prevously talked about this issue. Others have also contributed, and I for some reason had some trouble finding several posts that discussed all this stuff in detail. Perhaps it was in an older version of NiQil's vote thread. Back to your point. In many people's mind the simularities between familiars and psicrystals suggest that when there are ambiguities, that we should treat a psicrystal like a familiar. This is not the correct thing to do. The critical issue is that the SRD tells us a psicrystal is treated as a construct for the purpose of all effects that depend on its type. This is the 5th sentence in the psicrystal description. The construct type has several characteristics associated with it, BAB-Save-Skill progression are included. Feel free to look them up. So we treat a psicrystal as a construct when not told to do something different. We do have specific instructions for the advancement of HP, saves, skills and special abilities of a psicrystal. We do not have specific instructions about other things that progress with the advancement of a construct. These include BAB, stat increases and feats. There is conflicting data about the HD of the psicrystal. The stat table says to use it's master's HD and the text indicates to use only levels in psion and wilder. The Monster Manual Errata tells us to use the stat table if there is a contradiction. So Luni is correct and we use the master's HD. Luni made a good ruling that clarifies the contradiction and restates in a single place all the details that govern the feats, HP, HD, saves, skills and special abilities of the crystal. I agree with Luni's take on every point. The only thing missing is the stat increases that are associated with advancing a creature. Hence my question. Do psicrystal's get stat increases when they increase in HD?
Pittbull 03-10-06, 03:39 AM	Produce flame states it works like a thrown weapon. Does this mean it gets your Str bonus to damage as well? No, it strikes as the spell.
Azarias 03-10-06, 04:55 AM	-- sprungcleaned away :) --
Macbrea 03-10-06, 09:32 AM	Improved Natural Attack and dragons? Prerequisite Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4. Benefit Choose one of the creature’s natural attack forms. The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature’s size had increased by one category: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6. A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8. This feat may be taken multiple times, but each time it applies to a different natural attack. Lord Frost is a small dragon, May he take Improved Natural Attack (Left Wing) in order to gain the effects of a left wing buffet? As a small dragon has a -- in that category but a medium dragon has a 1d4.
Macbrea 03-10-06, 09:37 AM	Also, is a Claw considered a hand for purposes of: Hand Afire (Ps) A pyrokineticist of 2nd level or higher can activate this ability as a move-equivalent action. Flames engulf one of the pyrokineticist’s hands (but do her no harm). Her unarmed attacks with that hand are treated as armed. Such attacks deal an extra 2d6 points of fire damage.
Pittbull 03-10-06, 12:55 PM	Improved Natural Attack and dragons? Prerequisite Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4. Benefit Choose one of the creature’s natural attack forms. The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature’s size had increased by one category: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6. A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8. This feat may be taken multiple times, but each time it applies to a different natural attack. Lord Frost is a small dragon, May he take Improved Natural Attack (Left Wing) in order to gain the effects of a left wing buffet? As a small dragon has a -- in that category but a medium dragon has a 1d4. Sorry, I think, this is not allowed, but let's wait what Luni says.
Pittbull 03-10-06, 12:56 PM	Also, is a Claw considered a hand for purposes of: Hand Afire (Ps) A pyrokineticist of 2nd level or higher can activate this ability as a move-equivalent action. Flames engulf one of the pyrokineticist’s hands (but do her no harm). Her unarmed attacks with that hand are treated as armed. Such attacks deal an extra 2d6 points of fire damage. That should work with Frost's claws too.
Macbrea 03-10-06, 04:16 PM	Given that bit of information anyone happen to know if you are allowed to target a second hand with Hand Afire(ps). It appears it is a psi-like ability. And I cannot tell if your allowed to have two active at the same time.
DSugui 03-10-06, 04:27 PM	I posted this in the Tavern, but since there were some controversial opinions about, I will post here for an official ruling: Next week I intend to send Little Daisy in a quest for a advanced eagle ally. 1) advancing the eagle to 3HD (maximum allowed) will or will not raise the CR? The MM states that the CR raises by 1 for every 3HD added, but in the eagle's case, only 2HD will be added. 2) giving the eagle the elite array will raise the eagle's CR by 1. The eagle's CR is 1/2, so it will be raise to 1, right? So, if my math is correct, a 3HD elite array eagle will be CR 1. Is this correct or did I miss something?
Gonbow 03-10-06, 05:03 PM	Given that bit of information anyone happen to know if you are allowed to target a second hand with Hand Afire(ps). It appears it is a psi-like ability. And I cannot tell if your allowed to have two active at the same time. Yes, you can activate it as many times as you have hands or hand-like things to set on fire. (Most natural weapons are considered 'hands' for this kind of thing, but a few like bites and gores ar enot) Much like you can activate Weapon Afire as many times as you have weapons being 'held' at the same time. (See: Two-weapon fighting rangers->pyrokineticists.)
King Uther 03-11-06, 01:39 AM	I posted this in the Tavern, but since there were some controversial opinions about, I will post here for an official ruling: Next week I intend to send Little Daisy in a quest for a advanced eagle ally. 1) advancing the eagle to 3HD (maximum allowed) will or will not raise the CR? The MM states that the CR raises by 1 for every 3HD added, but in the eagle's case, only 2HD will be added. 2) giving the eagle the elite array will raise the eagle's CR by 1. The eagle's CR is 1/2, so it will be raise to 1, right? So, if my math is correct, a 3HD elite array eagle will be CR 1. Is this correct or did I miss something? 1) Absolutely correct. And I look for those when choosing allies, such as my 12HD chokers with elite array which is only a CR5. If, for example, Animal HD increase CR for every 3, raising it by 2 does not increase CR at all. 2) Yes. It seems silly, but an increase in size(small to medium) will not increase the CR, so a 3HD eagle is in fact a CR 1 creature. And could feasibly have a 19 STR.
Turin 03-15-06, 09:11 AM	I have a question about spellbooks for wizards, because Dr. Hexacious Pogboomer has just made Wiz3. I know I can buy spells to scribe in my spellbook for 50gp x spell level, as per Rule of Gladius NPC Services. This would obviously be in addition to the cost of actually scribing the spell (another 100gp/level). But scribing the spell also takes a certain amount of time (1 day). Is this considered a Free Activity and thus "uses up" my free activity for the week?I cross-posted this in the Tavern but never got an answer from anyone. Does one of the Elders have a comment? I lost my free activity for Hexacious last week due to a silly typo on my part, so I'd like to make sure I've got him working busily on either a scroll or spellbook (if required) for this week's pairings.
TheMagister 03-17-06, 02:03 AM	Psionic Shot. Is it considered precision-based damage? What about the +2d6 damage added from a deepcrystal weapon? Further, if I use manyshot with a +1 flaming bow, do each of my arrows gain +1d6 fire damage? I'm building a character, and this could play an integral part in her feat selection. TM
SoulLord 03-17-06, 11:08 AM	Just to have it on record.... Do the walls of the regular arena map add to the dc of listen checks?
Pittbull 03-17-06, 11:32 AM	Psionic Shot. Is it considered precision-based damage? What about the +2d6 damage added from a deepcrystal weapon? Further, if I use manyshot with a +1 flaming bow, do each of my arrows gain +1d6 fire damage? I'm building a character, and this could play an integral part in her feat selection. TM Psionic shot is an unnamed extra damage. The flaming ability aplies on every arrow, that is shot with the bow, the fire-damage.
Pittbull 03-17-06, 11:33 AM	Just to have it on record.... Do the walls of the regular arena map add to the dc of listen checks? For now the walls have no effect on listen checks in the arena. Only distance matters.
Book5 03-17-06, 03:46 PM	Sorry, I think, this is not allowed, but let's wait what Luni says. My first question is whether the "--" for the small dragons wing is "==" 1d3 NonLethal? Can an attack listed as "--" be used to touch? or does it simply not exist yet? If you supersize your dragon do they gain the attack forms... oh yes! :cool: they do! It does not say age - it says size. So that just goes deeper into the grey. The dragon has an "unarmed strike" like any batwinged creature, but (reversly) as with most tables the "--" indicates that you don't have the item in question. A small dragon still has a tail, 2 wings, and.. "stomach?" (crush?)... yeah... uhhhm but .. NO... they aren't "natural attacks." They are "unarmed attack" -worthy appendages. The feat reqs the natural attack form must exist before it is applied. The "Wing" attack doesn't exist for a small dragon. "Unarmed strike w/ wing appendage" certainly exists, however that is not a "natural attack." The only way for you to take improved natural attack is if you have the attack already. The only way for you (a small dragon) to get the attack would be to become medium size. Therin lies a problem.. you can enlarge and get the attack - because the table is size dependant, but you don't "have the size" in a normal state. Not even if you have an enlarge perm/item. :shifty: "Vote: No - does not meet requisites; no workaround of equal efficacy." spoilers should not be taken literally, nor mistaken for a real solution. table talkin' aka - "play it my way at home, but this stuff doesnt apply here! ;) I am a fan of errating the Unarmed Strike into a "Natural Attack" justa non-lethal one. Using that varient - adding the allowence to rewrite the table a little... "Table 'Dragon Space/Reach, Attacks, and Damage' +2 footnotes **Any attack listed as '--' is considered an unarmed strike for that size of dragon. Note: If a dragon changes size for any reason their natural attacks are adjusted according to this table." Since unarmed strikes *are* natural attacks - they then can already benifit from improved natural attack.. 1d4 nonlethal btw.. the wing can take the feat as a matter of course.. as just another natural unarmed strike weapon. Hehe, seems simple to me. I am pro adding perm/item size changes and alt forms to qualify as prereqs ala score bonuses, but that was shot down last time I brought it up. and on a final note: You shouldnt have to focus on an L or an R wing. Just "wings" like "claws."
Book5 03-17-06, 03:55 PM	Let me clarify: Acoording to Luni's rulings, the crystal gains HD equal to its master's HD. Also accoring to Luni's ruling with this increase in HD the crystal gains BAB and feats. Other creatures gain stat increases at every 4th HD as well. If memory serves animal companions and special mounts gain stat increases with increased HD. Do Psicrystals gain that stat increase at every 4th HD? I'd lay money that everybody (save the mindless) get a feat every four HD. I recall reading that particular "simplification" was an early line item on the .5 revision.
Stormwind 04-05-06, 05:21 AM	This post is cross posted in the Tavern thread. I was rereading the SRD and noticed something that may have a major effect on the arena. Actually there are two points that I want to make, both in regards to crawling tattoo's: Treat it as a Fine construct that has AC 18, 10 hit points, a hardness of 5, speed 30 feet, and a bonus on attack rolls equal to the wearer’s manifester level + his key ability modifier. 1) According to my reading of the following section of the SRD, all creatures without classes use their HD to determine their ML. (emphasis mine)Manifester Level: A power’s effect often depends on the manifester level, which is the manifester’s psionic class level. A creature with no classes has a manifester level equal to its Hit Dice unless otherwise specified. The word “level” in the power lists always refers to manifester level.This means that a crawling tattoo worn by any creature without class levels will have an AB equal to their HD. This can make intelligent allies incredibly powerful. (Animal allies, or other allies with <3 intelligence, could be argued both ways as to whether you could train them to use a tattoo). Since we are trying to make aliies have less of an impact in the arena, this may be an important consideration. 2) As the only Psionic class unable to manifest powers, the soulknife stands in a special position. Consider the following (emphasis mine): Manifester Level: A power’s effect often depends on the manifester level, which is the manifester’s psionic class level. A creature with no classes has a manifester level equal to its Hit Dice unless otherwise specified. Since the soulknife is a psionic class, it does have a Psionic class level. Wouldn't this mean that since the wearer (of a crawling tattoo) is considered to be the manifester of the power in the case of psionic tattoo's, that a crawling tattoo worn by a soulknife would actually have a AB equal to the soulknife's psionic class level? I know that both of these points seem a little weird, however, by my interpretation, they do seem to be RAW. I think that these points should be considered by the the Elders or the GM. Comments anyone? Storm
LLMadCow 04-05-06, 10:59 AM	This post is cross posted in the Tavern thread. I was rereading the SRD and noticed something that may have a major effect on the arena. Actually there are two points that I want to make, both in regards to crawling tattoo's: Treat it as a Fine construct that has AC 18, 10 hit points, a hardness of 5, speed 30 feet, and a bonus on attack rolls equal to the wearer’s manifester level + his key ability modifier. 1) According to my reading of the following section of the SRD, all creatures without classes use their HD to determine their ML. (emphasis mine)Manifester Level: A power’s effect often depends on the manifester level, which is the manifester’s psionic class level. A creature with no classes has a manifester level equal to its Hit Dice unless otherwise specified. The word “level” in the power lists always refers to manifester level.This means that a crawling tattoo worn by any creature without class levels will have an AB equal to their HD. This can make intelligent allies incredibly powerful. (Animal allies, or other allies with <3 intelligence, could be argued both ways as to whether you could train them to use a tattoo). Since we are trying to make aliies have less of an impact in the arena, this may be an important consideration. 2) As the only Psionic class unable to manifest powers, the soulknife stands in a special position. Consider the following (emphasis mine): Manifester Level: A power’s effect often depends on the manifester level, which is the manifester’s psionic class level. A creature with no classes has a manifester level equal to its Hit Dice unless otherwise specified. Since the soulknife is a psionic class, it does have a Psionic class level. Wouldn't this mean that since the wearer (of a crawling tattoo) is considered to be the manifester of the power in the case of psionic tattoo's, that a crawling tattoo worn by a soulknife would actually have a AB equal to the soulknife's psionic class level? I know that both of these points seem a little weird, however, by my interpretation, they do seem to be RAW. I think that these points should be considered by the the Elders or the GM. Comments anyone? Storm Okay, well, there is a little bit of confusion here. Manifester Level: A power’s effect often depends on the manifester level, which is the manifester’s psionic class level. A creature with no classes has a manifester level equal to its Hit Dice unless otherwise specified. The word “level” in the power lists always refers to manifester level. This section is for psionic creatures that have psionic powers but no psionic classes. This does not apply to everyone. If you have no powers, via race or class, then you have no ML. A Crawaling Tattoo worn by a non-psionic will not have any bonuses. LLMC
Turin 04-06-06, 04:16 PM	Crossposted on the FotW thread but it occurs to me it really goes here: Question about monster fights, because is the first one I'm pitlording: I'm not sure how/when to assign treasure to monsters in a Monster Fight. Let's suppose we have monsters with a CR3 in a fight for each of the examples below. Which ones get 2500gp worth of NPC gear? (My current understanding/best guess in bold after each one.) 1. A CR3 non-humanoid monster with Treasure listed in the SRD as None. (No) 2. A CR3 non-humanoid monster with Treasure listed in the SRD as Standard. (No?) 3. A CR3 humanoid monster with Treasure listed in the SRD as None. (No) 4. A CR3 humanoid monster with Treasure listed in the SRD as Standard, who has typical equipment listed in the monster's description. (Yes, but less the equipment listed?) 5. A CR3 humanoid monster with Treasure listed in the SRD as Standard, who has no equipment listed in the monster's description. (Yes) And my understanding is that the gear given to the monster has no effect on the rewards given to the gladiator, which are standard, correct?
SoulLord 04-13-06, 04:36 PM	just to have it here. do temporary hit points from diferent sources stack? vigor, false life, vampiric touch, aid Do temporary hit points from two applications of the same effect stack? What about from different effects? If I have temporary hit points from multiple sources, how should I apply damage? Temporary hit points from two applications of the same effect don’t stack; instead, the highest number of temporary hit points applies in place of all others. Temporary hit points from different sources stack, but you must keep track of them separately. For example, imagine a character who gained 15 temporary hit points from an aid spell. After taking 8 points of damage, she has 7 temporary hit points left from the spell. If another aid spell were cast on the same character granting 12 temporary hit points, this total would replace the other spell’s total, meaning the character would now have 12 temporary hit points (rather than 19). If the character then cast false life on herself, she would add the full benefit of that spell to the temporary hit points from the aid spell. This also applies to temporary hit points gained from energy drain and similar special abilities. Each successful attack counts as one application of the effect (meaning that an attack that bestows 2 or more negative levels still counts as only one application of the effect). For example, a wight gains 5 temporary hit points each time it bestows a negative level with its slam attack. If it bestows another negative level while it has 2 temporary hit points remaining from the first attack, the new temporary hit points would replace the old ones. Temporary hit points are “first-in, first-out.” Damage should be taken off the oldest temporary-hit-point-granting effect first; when that effect is exhausted, apply damage to the next oldest effect. For this reason, you must track each supply of temporary hit points separately.
LLMadCow 04-16-06, 02:59 PM	Question about monster fights, because is the first one I'm pitlording: I'm not sure how/when to assign treasure to monsters in a Monster Fight. Let's suppose we have monsters with a CR3 in a fight for each of the examples below. Which ones get 2500gp worth of NPC gear? (My current understanding/best guess in bold after each one.) 1. A CR3 non-humanoid monster with Treasure listed in the SRD as None. (No) 2. A CR3 non-humanoid monster with Treasure listed in the SRD as Standard. (No?) 3. A CR3 humanoid monster with Treasure listed in the SRD as None. (No) 4. A CR3 humanoid monster with Treasure listed in the SRD as Standard, who has typical equipment listed in the monster's description. (Yes, but less the equipment listed?) 5. A CR3 humanoid monster with Treasure listed in the SRD as Standard, who has no equipment listed in the monster's description. (Yes) And my understanding is that the gear given to the monster has no effect on the rewards given to the gladiator, which are standard, correct? I agree with your assessment, but there is a little more to keep in mind. Treasure This line reflects how much wealth the creature owns. In most cases, a creature keeps valuables in its home or lair and has no treasure with it when it travels. Intelligent creatures that own useful, portable treasure (such as magic items) tend to carry and use these, leaving bulky items at home. So, if the intelligence is over 3, and there is treasure listed for the monster to have, it is plausable for it to have some equipment. LLMC
LLMadCow 04-16-06, 03:26 PM	do temporary hit points from diferent sources stack? vigor, false life, vampiric touch, aid Here is the deal: If you have Temporary Hit Points from two sources, when you take damage, full damage is going to be deducted from both sources. Vigor +10... False Life +12... You take 6 points of damage... Resulting in... Vigor +4... False Life +6... Make sense? LLMC
LLMadCow 04-16-06, 03:30 PM	I just want everyone to know, if you have questions to ask, you should feel free to send me an Instant Message. If I am at the computer, I always do my best to reply right then and there. AOL: Hiryugo Yahoo: LLMadCow Some of you send me the occassional IM, and as much as possible, I look up answers and give opinions on the fly. LLMC
SoulLord 04-16-06, 03:55 PM	Are you flatfooted in the first round of combat on the arena if your opponent has a better initiative than you and manages to attack you before it's your turn?
NiQil 04-16-06, 04:14 PM	Are you flatfooted in the first round of combat on the arena if your opponent has a better initiative than you and manages to attack you before it's your turn? Unless you have some way to not be (such as Uncanny Dodge), then yes. You are always considered flat-footed at the beginning of combat until you take your first action...that's what makes surprise rounds so lethal for rogues...a surprise round sneak attack is fairly vicious.
SoulLord 04-16-06, 05:08 PM	Here is the deal: If you have Temporary Hit Points from two sources, when you take damage, full damage is going to be deducted from both sources. Vigor +10... False Life +12... You take 6 points of damage... Resulting in... Vigor +4... False Life +6... Make sense? LLMC actually they do stack unless they are the same effect. Do temporary hit points from two applications of the same effect stack? What about from different effects? If I have temporary hit points from multiple sources, how should I apply damage? Temporary hit points from two applications of the same effect don’t stack; instead, the highest number of temporary hit points applies in place of all others. Temporary hit points from different sources stack, but you must keep track of them separately. For example, imagine a character who gained 15 temporary hit points from an aid spell. After taking 8 points of damage, she has 7 temporary hit points left from the spell. If another aid spell were cast on the same character granting 12 temporary hit points, this total would replace the other spell’s total, meaning the character would now have 12 temporary hit points (rather than 19). If the character then cast false life on herself, she would add the full benefit of that spell to the temporary hit points from the aid spell. This also applies to temporary hit points gained from energy drain and similar special abilities. Each successful attack counts as one application of the effect (meaning that an attack that bestows 2 or more negative levels still counts as only one application of the effect). For example, a wight gains 5 temporary hit points each time it bestows a negative level with its slam attack. If it bestows another negative level while it has 2 temporary hit points remaining from the first attack, the new temporary hit points would replace the old ones. Temporary hit points are “first-in, first-out.” Damage should be taken off the oldest temporary-hit-point-granting effect first; when that effect is exhausted, apply damage to the next oldest effect. For this reason, you must track each supply of temporary hit points separately.
lonewolf 04-19-06, 08:09 AM	Does a Wizard stay invisible when its familiar delivers a touch attack spell?
Pittbull 04-19-06, 10:20 AM	Does a Wizard stay invisible when its familiar delivers a touch attack spell? I'm not sure, but the SRD says: Attacks Use the master’s base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes. Use the familiar’s Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to get the familiar’s melee attack bonus with natural weapons. and Deliver Touch Spells (Su) If the master is 3rd level or higher, a familiar can deliver touch spells for him. If the master and the familiar are in contact at the time the master casts a touch spell, he can designate his familiar as the "toucher." The familiar can then deliver the touch spell just as the master could. As usual, if the master casts another spell before the touch is delivered, the touch spell dissipates. If you count the caster and his familiar as one unit, since the familiar is the toucher and uses the base-attack of his master, the invisibility should end.
LLMadCow 04-19-06, 10:36 AM	actually they do stack unless they are the same effect. I made my reply after consulting with Cat. Just an FYI. LLMC
Book5 04-19-06, 11:23 AM	This is listed nowhere. Can we throw rats at people to cause damage? :shifty: Basically "How do you throw a rock" ? Improvised Dart? Peircing? Club (range 10 btw)? Size Tiny? I would go with Club. Rock = Tiny Improvised Club?
Vathelokai 04-19-06, 03:42 PM	Does a Wizard stay invisible when its familiar delivers a touch attack spell? This depends. If wizard is sharing the invisibiliy with the familiar, and the familiar is within 5 ft., then they are considered the same person as far as the spell is concerned; so yes, it would dismiss the invisibility. But you can have your familiar 5 ft. step out of the invisibiliy radius before attacking. So you can do things like load your familiar with shocking grasp, then have the familiar charge our of the invis radius. The familiiar would become visible, but you would stay invisible. Or you can cast invis on both you and your familiar. Then even if you share a space you have to dismiss your invis's seperately.
Vathelokai 04-19-06, 03:53 PM	This is listed nowhere. Basically "How do you throw a rock" ? Sorry, only giants can throw rocks. It's a special attack. :rolleye2: ... Um, I suppose improvised weapon. Maybe 1d1 damage?
Book5 04-19-06, 05:59 PM	Sorry, only giants can throw rocks. It's a special attack. :rolleye2: ... Um, I suppose improvised weapon. Maybe 1d1 damage? As per the improvised weapon instructions, one must declare the weapon being improvised. For example, an arrow is obviously an improvised dagger (and dart I assume). Simple. Its even in the SRD> in the arrow weapon description. Rock is not however. Thusly I presumed club. Particularly as club turns out to have a 10ft range increment already. I tell you my good man! I had to look twice when I saw it. I must have simply never looked to find the range increment of a club, but there it was (as though it were waiting for me); making a perfect base for a rock...to be an improvised weapon thereof. Eh? :tantrum:
Gonbow 04-19-06, 06:00 PM	Sorry, only giants can throw rocks. It's a special attack. :rolleye2: ... Um, I suppose improvised weapon. Maybe 1d1 damage? Well, from the SRD... You can hurl ordinary stones with a sling, but stones are not as dense or as round as bullets. Thus, such an attack deals damage as if the weapon were designed for a creature one size category smaller than you and you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls. Now, that's using a sling, so you're looking at 1d3 damage. If your just throwing it, I'd move it another size down which goes to 1d2. Vis a vis 'Tiny Club': I suppose, but I'd think it'd do more 1d2 than 1d3 (Which is what a tiny club would do) as 1d3 is what a small sling does. Slings tend to multiply the power-output vs simply throwing quite a bit.
Huan 04-19-06, 07:00 PM	Well, for rocks, sure... but rats? How about this: Improvised Weapons: Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses one in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet. So really, you can swing/toss anything you can lift ... chairs, cows, cohorts, etc. Judging from the size of a rat and its weight... dmg of 1 or 1d2 is fair.
SoulLord 04-20-06, 08:52 AM	I made my reply after consulting with Cat. Just an FYI. LLMC Quoting from the main faq the relevant part. If the character then cast false life on herself, she would add the full benefit of that spell to the temporary hit points from the aid spell.
KerlanRayne 04-20-06, 02:27 PM	I made my reply after consulting with Cat. Just an FYI.Does that mean you and Cat disagree with his interpretation or that he has ruled differently? Did Cat know about the quote from the FAQ? The quote seems to say that they would stack. KerlanRayne
MitzaVolchenko 04-20-06, 04:21 PM	I have two guild issues. One is personal, one not. First, I have been assigned an MQ for a character that does not meet guild pre-reqs (and is nowhere near to meeting them). Sissay does not meet the reqs to join EHTC. I can run an encounter, but he is going to fail, period. He may earn money and xp, but his quest goal is an auto-fail. Asides from that, every Guild has Entry Requirements that your character has to fulfill before being able to enter. I do not like setting people up to fail. What should I do? Now for the personal: Leaving a Guild If you want to leave a Guild, you can do so anytime, and it will come into effect on next wednesday along with the new pairings. Please note that Guildhoppers might be denied membership by a Guildmaster if they do it once too often. For Guildmasters: If you want to throw out a character - perhaps because of inactivity - write a PM to Guildlords and ask for permission. While I was waiting on the wizards' techies to fix my issue with not being able to log in, Zwei was removed from EHTC. There are no clear rules for reinstatement. I have already met all guild entry requirements. What does one do about this? Cat has said redo quest (which costs me a quest slot). I have not received any answer which includes any explanation for why I would need to re-quest. I also have not received any clarification on what in the rules supports the idea that I should have to. Zwei's room has remained open. I am not guild hopping. I was not voluntarily inactive. I would like opinions on this situation with an eye toward adding to the rules from elders who are not also DM, Guildlords, and the Guildmaster of the CEF, and too busy at the moment to write a full response.
Pittbull 04-20-06, 04:39 PM	Now for the personal: While I was waiting on the wizards' techies to fix my issue with not being able to log in, Zwei was removed from EHTC. There are no clear rules for reinstatement. I have already met all guild entry requirements. What does one do about this? Cat has said redo quest (which costs me a quest slot). I have not received any answer which includes any explanation for why I would need to re-quest. I also have not received any clarification on what in the rules supports the idea that I should have to. Zwei's room has remained open. I am not guild hopping. I was not voluntarily inactive. I would like opinions on this situation with an eye toward adding to the rules from elders who are not also DM, Guildlords, and the Guildmaster of the CEF, and too busy at the moment to write a full response. Since you were not inactive, because of your own decission. I see no problem why your character shouldn't be activated without a new quest. I would rule, that if the room is free, she can be an active member again. This is my personal elder-opinion. Regarding the quest with an unachievable goal: Just ask the guy who wants to do the quest, he might change his quest-goal or his character (to meet the requirements).
MindWandererB 04-20-06, 04:42 PM	While I was waiting on the wizards' techies to fix my issue with not being able to log in, Zwei was removed from EHTC. There are no clear rules for reinstatement. I have already met all guild entry requirements. What does one do about this? Cat has said redo quest (which costs me a quest slot). I have not received any answer which includes any explanation for why I would need to re-quest. I also have not received any clarification on what in the rules supports the idea that I should have to. Zwei's room has remained open. I am not guild hopping. I was not voluntarily inactive.I cannot find a rule limiting the number of quests a character may go on. The closes thing I could find was for Leadership, going on lots of quests and campaigns earns you the "moves around a lot" tag. Can you give a quote for this rule?
Macbrea 04-20-06, 05:03 PM	Well, for rocks, sure... but rats? How about this: So really, you can swing/toss anything you can lift ... chairs, cows, cohorts, etc. Judging from the size of a rat and its weight... dmg of 1 or 1d2 is fair. Animal and vermin are not OBJECTS. There are no rules in the game for swinging living creatures. There are rules if you wish to move a living creature. You must do the following: Initiate a grapple check vs the Rat. Take the AoO from the rat. Succeed in a grapple check versus the rat. On the next round you may attempt to move with the rat. To move with the rat you must suceed in another grapple check and may move half rate this counts as a standard action. Which means you may not swing your opponent at anyone else. If you happen to have the SNATCH FEAT. You are allowed to fling rats. Rats at that point travel 1d6x10 feet and take 1d6 damage per 10ft they travel. Sadly, you it doesn't appear that you can fling rats at people. :P
Book5 04-20-06, 09:19 PM	Well, from the SRD... Now, that's using a sling, so you're looking at 1d3 damage. If your just throwing it, I'd move it another size down which goes to 1d2. Vis a vis 'Tiny Club': I suppose, but I'd think it'd do more 1d2 than 1d3 (Which is what a tiny club would do) as 1d3 is what a small sling does. Slings tend to multiply the power-output vs simply throwing quite a bit. Originally I went for the improvised sling, now I lean toward the club.. actually prefering the 1d2 damage to the 1d3.. but perhaps the 1d3 could apply to "bullets" (aka hard metal rocks made for flight, also acting as ammo, "I paid money for this" - items) and not to "soft stones (or the irregular shaped carcase)" that you could pick up off the ground. @huan - rats! :smirk: Part 2 - can you "draw" improvised weapon-likes? unstated, but problematic. Problem - if you can "draw" improvised weapons that gives me a really big headache, because ... anything can be an improvised weapon.... ready "barrel" ready "bag of flour" ?? Simply a matter of decleration at that point. Part 3 - Ammunition. The line in question (refering to drawing ammunition as a free action) uses the words "for use." (Thats the combat section move actions draw weapons, last line.) Should that be read "for use at all" or "for use with weapon (aka only when firing the weapon)" two very different interperatations with different ramifications.
TheMagister 04-20-06, 09:34 PM	On the temporary HP from different sources stacking or not: The FAQ is pretty clear. The last two sentences of the explanation given even give a good example of how to track the temp HP. This is something that shouldn't be houseruled away. TM
Pittbull 04-21-06, 02:35 AM	Yes, temporary hitppoints should stack. Sorry, LL and Cat, the FAQ is crystal clear.
Abyssal Stalker 04-22-06, 08:32 AM	What means being aware of an attack? Can a monk use deflect arrows if attacked by an invisible character? What if she hears the attacker just before the attack? This question has risen with the fight Zwei vs Hassan (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8996258&postcount=555) this week and I'd like to get an elder ruling on this issue!
LLMadCow 04-22-06, 10:31 AM	What means being aware of an attack? There are a few things that I am going to look at when answering this question... Deflect Arrows is specifically designed for ranged attacks. There is no use of facing in D&D 3.5. Assuming that the monk is not in a globe of silence, he would have a chance of hearing his enemies general location. Assuming that he is not in a globe of darkness, he would be able to see the arrow coming towards him. (Remember that when an item leaves the invisible attacker, the item then becomes visible.) Ideally, you have a monk in silence and in darkness, and you are attacking him with True Strike. If the arrow was invisible, and the monk failed a listen check to hear it, then he would be hit. There are a lot of variables involved, but most of them involve sight and sound, or the lack thereof. I am off to work shortly, so I will check back in on this tonight. LLMC
Erithmu 04-23-06, 12:12 PM	Can a person who is under the effects of invisibility and silence be located by a creature with blindsense/sight that is based upon sound/echolocation(bats/direbats) rather than keen senses (Dragons). a) from outside of the silence radius b) from inside the silence radius My gut is that a silenced person can not be noticed due to the nature of the bat's echo, They could probably notice the edge of the silence effect but not locate the actual square it is in.
Ariel23 04-23-06, 06:01 PM	IMO this section (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm) of the SRD tells us most of what we need to know about "awareness." Further, I don't think any RL definition of awareness would be synonymous with "pinpoint." I already posted on this in the FotW thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9011693&postcount=165) and don't want to double post. :twocents:
Vathelokai 04-23-06, 06:46 PM	Cross posted from the Tavern On the matter of Bag of Tricks, which personally affects my character, the animals are summons...I no more need Handle Animal than someone summoning a badger does. Actually it specificly says in the items description...The animal serves the character who drew it from the bag for 10 minutes (or until slain or ordered back into the bag), at which point it disappears. It can follow any of the commands described in the Handle Animal skill.It's kind of a gray area if you have to use the skill or not. The bag is based on the spell summon natures ally. Summon monster always summons monsters with int of 3 or more (they have templates), but natures allies...It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. Even there it dosn't specify if they understand you or if you need the skill. Here is the extent of pertinent info on summoning in the Magic overview...Creatures you conjure usually, but not always, obey your commands.SO, it is basicly up to the GM in any game how well summoned creatures listen to you. Thus, the elders should look into this.
LLMadCow 04-25-06, 11:25 AM	Few things are as annoying as buying a magic item, expecting it to work, and then finding out that it isn't going to function the way it is intended. This may be a bit extreme, but when I think of a Bag of Tricks, I think of an item that has a single intended purpose, and for the animals to appear and do nothing? Or better yet, why not have the animals have a 5% chance of attacking the owner of the bag? This wouldn't do at all. When using a Bag of Tricks, you are not required to have any ranks in Handle Animal. A Broom of Flying does not require ranks in Ride. A Feather Token: Bird does not require ranks in Handle Animal. Flying Carpets do not require ranks in Ride. Candles of Truth do not require ranks in Sense Motive. A Rope of Entanglement does not require ranks in Use Rope. The broom and carpet: Why would Handle Animal help you ride a broom better? I say this because Handle Animal can give a synergy bonus to Ride. Figurines of Wonderous Power require the spells Animal Messenger and Animate Objects; what does Animal Messenger really have to do with having an elephant enter combat at your command? Unless SPECIFICALLY mentioned in the description of a magical item, no specific skills are required to be able to use it.
NiQil 04-25-06, 09:28 PM	Few things are as annoying as buying a magic item, expecting it to work, and then finding out that it isn't going to function the way it is intended. This may be a bit extreme, but when I think of a Bag of Tricks, I think of an item that has a single intended purpose, and for the animals to appear and do nothing? Or better yet, why not have the animals have a 5% chance of attacking the owner of the bag? This wouldn't do at all. When using a Bag of Tricks, you are not required to have any ranks in Handle Animal. A Broom of Flying does not require ranks in Ride. A Feather Token: Bird does not require ranks in Handle Animal. Flying Carpets do not require ranks in Ride. Candles of Truth do not require ranks in Sense Motive. A Rope of Entanglement does not require ranks in Use Rope. The broom and carpet: Why would Handle Animal help you ride a broom better? I say this because Handle Animal can give a synergy bonus to Ride. Figurines of Wonderous Power require the spells Animal Messenger and Animate Objects; what does Animal Messenger really have to do with having an elephant enter combat at your command? Unless SPECIFICALLY mentioned in the description of a magical item, no specific skills are required to be able to use it. I'll add this to the Court Decisions this weekend.
Vathelokai 04-29-06, 03:09 AM	Question: It has been established that psicrystals can gain feats from their HD, which is equel to their masters HD total from all classes. Is there a rule on what feats can be taken? Specificly, can a crystal take wild talent to qualify for psionic feats? Just want to be sure, so that I don't get attacked over it mid fight.
LLMadCow 04-29-06, 11:34 AM	WILD TALENT [GENERAL] Your mind wakes to a previously unrealized talent for psionics. Benefit: Your latent power of psionics flares to life, conferring upon you the designation of a psionic character. As a psionic character, you gain a reserve of 2 power points and can take psionic feats, metapsionic feats, and psionic item creation feats. You do not, however, gain the ability to manifest powers simply by virtue of having this feat. Since the feat Wild Talent is a general feat with ZERO prerequisites, it can be taken by any creature that does not have any additional parameters to be met, such as a fighter taking fighter feats as bonus feats. LLMC
MitzaVolchenko 04-29-06, 05:37 PM	Does it require a standard action to awaken someone from poison induced sleep?
MindWandererB 04-29-06, 06:10 PM	Since the feat Wild Talent is a general feat with ZERO prerequisites, it can be taken by any creature that does not have any additional parameters to be met, such as a fighter taking fighter feats as bonus feats.Uh, you do realize that this is in direct violation with the Rules, right? Customizing creatures: How can I do that? The creature versions from the Monster Manual are the standard versions but surely not the only ones. You can customize these creatures by changing their printed feats and skills. For feats, you just exchange one or more existing ones with new ones. Skills need more attention because you have to recalculate a creatures skill points and then assign them anew, taking into consideration class/cross-class skills, and common sense (no spellcraft animals, for example). You may only customize a creature when you acquire it; once you've made your decision, there will be no further customization! Bonus feats may never be customized, and Psionic Feats are forbidden for customization!
Zevox 04-29-06, 06:41 PM	Uh, you do realize that this is in direct violation with the Rules, right? (Italics added.) Ah, but those rules are for customizing purchased or skill-obtained allies. Why should they also apply to those gained via a feat or class ability, such as a Leadership Cohort, Psicrystal, Thrall, and so on? Zevox
MindWandererB 04-29-06, 07:07 PM	Oh, I agree, but LLMC's ruling made no such limitations. By that wording, a horse with Up the Walls is perfectly legal.
Argaud 04-29-06, 07:16 PM	Can a flying creature charge someone that is flying at a higher elevation? My common sense tells me not, unless the creature has perfect maneuverability, since climbing ‘slows movement’ (except for critters with perfect maneuverability) and that is one of the conditions to disallow a charge, but I have not seen it stated clearly anywhere.
Book5 04-29-06, 10:36 PM	Regarding the Free Actions: Drawing, Sheathing, Palming, Lifting, and Loading, The rules are somewhat stringy in this regard, so here is a coco clarification. If you have a +1 BAB or better you can ready items to be drawn or sheathed. Drawing is free action that must be part of a regular move. Drawing or sheathing a weapon, or weapon-like item, can only be performed as part of a regular move action. Sheathing an item that has been readied, and later drawn, is normally a move action. However, you may also sheath a previously readied weapon (or weapon-like item) as a free action in conjunction with a regular move the same as drawing. If you have a +1 BAB or better you can ready an ammo pouch to be loaded. Loading ammo is a free action that must be part of the normal use of the ammo. Arrows for bows, bullets for slings, bolts for crossbows; all these ammunitions are drawn as a free action in part of their normal use with their respective ranged weapon. Any ready ammunition is (also/not) considered a ready improvised weapon to be drawn or sheathed. Readying a weapon or ammo container to be drawn, or loaded, is a standard action that does not provoke AoO. You can ready any item to be drawn as an improvised weapon, but all ready marked equipment is also available for sundering, theft (lifting), and must save vs. environmental damage and area spells/effects. To be considered ready an item must simply be declared as ready on your character sheet, or your tactics. Drawing a ready weapon does not provoke an AoO; sheathing one does. Loading ammo doesn’t, but firing the ranged weapon will. The most important thing to remember is the declaration of equipment that is ready vs. that which is stored (aka hidden), and the fact that these actions are only available as part of other actions, not as independent actions. Similar to the draw, sheath, and loading special activities of the “Manipulate Object Action” there is the palm and lift actions of the Slight of Hand skill. Palming allows you to hide small items in your storage, lifting takes items from others’ storage and puts them in your hand. Truly successful Slight of Hand checks are never perceived by the observers, and therefore cannot generally provoke an AoO. Failing a Slight of Hand check can often provoke an AoO, but not always. *** Palming does not provoke an AoO, and it is a check with two DCs. The base DC to perform the act of palming is DC 10. Succeeding at both the base DC and opposed checks allows the small item to open or close (scroll case), activate or expire (tinder twig), and be hidden or unhidden (anything small enough to fit in a pocket) without observers becoming the wiser. Failure to meet the base DC results in a waste of a standard action, and generally makes a fool out of you because more than likely everyone saw you fail. Defeating the base DC, but not the opposed checks results in the item being stored and hidden from other combatants. A stored item is hidden from other combatants, and you will need to be grappled, pinned, and searched (DC = to your Slight of Hand or Simple Dexterity Check result) for another combatant to disarm (or lift) any stored item from your character, even when they know its there. As an untrained palming action you may store (hide), or retrieve (palm), any small item. This requires a standard action, does not provoke an AoO, and does not have a base DC. You cannot perform more complicated manipulations (opening closing, igniting), and you may not attempt to palm as a free action untrained. Your basic dexterity modifier is used to palm untrained. Lifting is the act of removing a small item from a mark’s inventory and placing it in your hands: all without being noticed. Similar to palming, lifting has a base DC (20) and an opposed DC (observer spot checks). Success on the base DC results in the small item relocating to the lifter’s hand. Failure on the opposed check provokes an AoO and, presumably, further retaliation. Even if the item is in the mark’s hand, if the slight of hand check meets the DC 20 the item is lifted. Failing the opposed check simply provokes an AoO – if the AoO is successful the lifter must make a concentration check or fail to complete the Slight of Hand action. *** :thumbsdow :confused: :thumbsup: more detail? specific failures? ignoring the slight of hand parts?
LLMadCow 04-30-06, 03:16 AM	Uh, you do realize that this is in direct violation with the Rules, right? No, this is not in direct violation of the rules at all. Custimization of a creature entails taking it's current Skills and/or Feats and exchanging them for new Skills and/or Feats. We are discussing a creature that is advancing in Hit Dice, earning Feats, and assigning feats to fill those slots. Within the guidelines for the CoCo, there are ZERO restrictions on what Feats can be assigned to a creature that is advancing, other than meeting pre-requisits and fullfilling the requirements for them to be assigned. A horse has no Hit Die advancement, and thus for you to change it's feats, it cannot have Psionic Feats. I'll not have my words twisted and bent. I am not contradicting the Allies Rules. If you really want to get down to brass tacks, I will point out that according to the SRD 3.5, Psicrystals have no listed Advancement, and therefore do not qualify for Feats at all, but the CoCo voted to allow them to earn Feats. A psicrystal’s characteristics depend on its master. According to this, aside from the listed characteristics, ALL other attributes are a reflection of their master; so no, they do not gain Feats as they increase in HD. Just my two cents. LLMC
MindWandererB 04-30-06, 03:51 AM	So then a horse that is the animal companion of a druid could take Wild Talent and, eventually, Up the Walls? And Psionic Fist? Would it require a trick to get an animal to regain psionic focus? I would think that any psionic creature would have an innate concept of how to gain psionic focus and would do so whenever given the opportunity, and would also spend it on the first applicable attack.
TheMagister 04-30-06, 06:44 AM	So then a horse that is the animal companion of a druid could take Wild Talent and, eventually, Up the Walls? And Psionic Fist? Would it require a trick to get an animal to regain psionic focus? I would think that any psionic creature would have an innate concept of how to gain psionic focus and would do so whenever given the opportunity, and would also spend it on the first applicable attack. Um, isn't Wild Talent a [GENERAL] feat? TM
LLMadCow 04-30-06, 12:38 PM	So then a horse that is the animal companion of a druid could take Wild Talent and, eventually, Up the Walls? And Psionic Fist? Would it require a trick to get an animal to regain psionic focus? I would think that any psionic creature would have an innate concept of how to gain psionic focus and would do so whenever given the opportunity, and would also spend it on the first applicable attack. I am not going to get into the ins & outs of some of the votes that everyone has made, but according to the rules as they currently stand, a druids horse can take up the walls as it advances. As I said before, I disagree with granting feats for the advancement of creatures that advance only as an aspect of a class feature, i.e. druid animal companions, familiars, psi-crystals, etc. I do believe that this goes against the intentions of the SRD 3.5. The impression I have is that any creature who does not have a natural HD progression should not be earning any more feats. LLMC
LLMadCow 04-30-06, 12:43 PM	Does it require a standard action to awaken someone from poison induced sleep? As long as there are no special instructions regarding the poison, it should only require a standard action to awaken a sleeping creature.
LLMadCow 04-30-06, 12:46 PM	Regarding the Free Actions: Drawing, Sheathing, Palming, Lifting, and Loading, The rules are somewhat stringy in this regard, so here is a coco clarification. If you have a +1 BAB or better you can ready items to be drawn or sheathed. Drawing is free action that must be part of a regular move. Drawing or sheathing a weapon, or weapon-like item, can only be performed as part of a regular move action. Sheathing an item that has been readied, and later drawn, is normally a move action. However, you may also sheath a previously readied weapon (or weapon-like item) as a free action in conjunction with a regular move the same as drawing. If you have a +1 BAB or better you can ready an ammo pouch to be loaded. Loading ammo is a free action that must be part of the normal use of the ammo. Arrows for bows, bullets for slings, bolts for crossbows; all these ammunitions are drawn as a free action in part of their normal use with their respective ranged weapon. Any ready ammunition is (also/not) considered a ready improvised weapon to be drawn or sheathed. Readying a weapon or ammo container to be drawn, or loaded, is a standard action that does not provoke AoO. You can ready any item to be drawn as an improvised weapon, but all ready marked equipment is also available for sundering, theft (lifting), and must save vs. environmental damage and area spells/effects. To be considered ready an item must simply be declared as ready on your character sheet, or your tactics. Drawing a ready weapon does not provoke an AoO; sheathing one does. Loading ammo doesn’t, but firing the ranged weapon will. The most important thing to remember is the declaration of equipment that is ready vs. that which is stored (aka hidden), and the fact that these actions are only available as part of other actions, not as independent actions. Similar to the draw, sheath, and loading special activities of the “Manipulate Object Action” there is the palm and lift actions of the Slight of Hand skill. Palming allows you to hide small items in your storage, lifting takes items from others’ storage and puts them in your hand. Truly successful Slight of Hand checks are never perceived by the observers, and therefore cannot generally provoke an AoO. Failing a Slight of Hand check can often provoke an AoO, but not always. *** Palming does not provoke an AoO, and it is a check with two DCs. The base DC to perform the act of palming is DC 10. Succeeding at both the base DC and opposed checks allows the small item to open or close (scroll case), activate or expire (tinder twig), and be hidden or unhidden (anything small enough to fit in a pocket) without observers becoming the wiser. Failure to meet the base DC results in a waste of a standard action, and generally makes a fool out of you because more than likely everyone saw you fail. Defeating the base DC, but not the opposed checks results in the item being stored and hidden from other combatants. A stored item is hidden from other combatants, and you will need to be grappled, pinned, and searched (DC = to your Slight of Hand or Simple Dexterity Check result) for another combatant to disarm (or lift) any stored item from your character, even when they know its there. As an untrained palming action you may store (hide), or retrieve (palm), any small item. This requires a standard action, does not provoke an AoO, and does not have a base DC. You cannot perform more complicated manipulations (opening closing, igniting), and you may not attempt to palm as a free action untrained. Your basic dexterity modifier is used to palm untrained. Lifting is the act of removing a small item from a mark’s inventory and placing it in your hands: all without being noticed. Similar to palming, lifting has a base DC (20) and an opposed DC (observer spot checks). Success on the base DC results in the small item relocating to the lifter’s hand. Failure on the opposed check provokes an AoO and, presumably, further retaliation. Even if the item is in the mark’s hand, if the slight of hand check meets the DC 20 the item is lifted. Failing the opposed check simply provokes an AoO – if the AoO is successful the lifter must make a concentration check or fail to complete the Slight of Hand action. *** :thumbsdow :confused: :thumbsup: more detail? specific failures? ignoring the slight of hand parts? Book5 - Let me get back to you on this one. I need some time to sort this out and compare to rules and such. You are not being ignored. LLMC
LLMadCow 04-30-06, 12:47 PM	Can a flying creature charge someone that is flying at a higher elevation? My common sense tells me not, unless the creature has perfect maneuverability, since climbing ‘slows movement’ (except for critters with perfect maneuverability) and that is one of the conditions to disallow a charge, but I have not seen it stated clearly anywhere. Due to the wording of charge, I would be inclined to say that you cannot charge while flying up, since flying up requires you to move at a slower speed. Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. There may not be anything that is actually in your way, but your movement is slowed. LLMC
Zevox 04-30-06, 01:14 PM	As I said before, I disagree with granting feats for the advancement of creatures that advance only as an aspect of a class feature, i.e. druid animal companions, familiars, psi-crystals, etc. I do believe that this goes against the intentions of the SRD 3.5. Just wanted to point out quickly here that, in the case of Druid Animal Companions, the SRD specifically says that they gain feats as they advance: An animal companion gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice. Otherwise I agree with you though. Zevox
LLMadCow 04-30-06, 01:18 PM	Okay, aside from what the SRD 3.5 specifically agrees to (it's been a while since I have done anything with druids) I do not agree with making exceptions and special cases granting extra Feats. So, in the case of the Druid Animal Companion, they can pick up psionic feats, since they are not being customized. Go ahead and have your psionic fisting horse who runs on walls. How they gain focus is a whole other debate...
Gruvyve 05-03-06, 09:29 AM	oke, the question is: how long does it cost to set up a trap? full-round?
Macbrea 05-03-06, 09:32 AM	Not that there are rules for carrying around a trap but this is the rule for setting one once it is emplaced. Resetting a trap usually takes only a minute or so. For a trap with a more difficult reset method, you should set the time and labor required.
Macbrea 05-03-06, 09:35 AM	How they gain focus is a whole other debate... The SRD already handles that for monster/creatures. Psionic Focus Some creatures have feats that can be used only when the creature is psionically focused, or that require the creature to expend its psionic focus. Assume that such a creature is psionically focused before entering combat.
Gruvyve 05-04-06, 09:54 AM	i meant for a trap with auto-reset, and not to reset the trap, but to pleace it somewhere
SauroGrenom 05-22-06, 07:46 PM	How do we handle the "wind effects"? Specificially if a psion manifests Control Air augmented with 3pp, what effect is he able to generate in the Arena? What is the natural weather like in the Arena on a typical day? Related is the request for a clarification of the wind rules in regard to this power. In the SRD it states that a medium creature in a severe wind is checked. It's not clear what the Fort Save is for, but I think that if the character makes the Fort save of DC 15 they are not checked. If not checked, is the character able to move at a full movement speed? Does the character need to make another Fort save the next round to determine if they are able to continue to resist the winds? Or is the character immune to that wind for the rest of the storm? What would happen to a small sized flying dragon in the same wind? It is clear that if he fails the Fort save of DC 15, then he is "Blown Away". But if he makes the save what happens? Perhaps he is not blown away, but is instead subject to the next lower effect in this case "Knocked Down". Or is this dragon allowed to move freely ignoring the wind and flying into the wind at full movement speed? If a creature is checked by the wind, then is he able to maintain his forward flying needed for average manouverability to keep in the air? If not, will he fall and take falling damage? Also of note is that the power Control Air is simular to Gust of Wind spell. The gust of wind spell allows a fort save (as do natural winds). While the Control Air power does not allow any save. This suggests to me that the winds produced by this power are irresistable, and fort saves are not allowed to resist the winds. Finally is the interesting question of how obstacles such as pilliars and rocks play into the situation. Do these provide shelter from winds? What happens if you are blown away or blown back into one of these obstacles? Do you take damage for hitting it? If you are 30' up at the time you hit a pilliar, do you fall to the base and take falling damage as well as damage for hitting the pilliar? Anyway that's a lot of questions all at once. Basicially I need someone to tell me how winds work in the Arena and specificially with the Control Air power? What flying movement is allowed, and what walking movement is allowed? What saves are allowed and what happens if you make the save? How does the terrain of the arena effect the winds? What is the save if any allowed when trying to resist this power? What will make you fall, and do you take damage if you hit something while being blown back?
SauroGrenom 05-23-06, 09:08 AM	I'd love to get the Elders to chime in on this question today. It's rather pertinent for one of my characters right now, because I'd like to change a power before pairings on wednessday. Perhaps our CoCo Oldtimer has heard a discussion about this topic before. In any case I'd like to hear what you all think.
Pittbull 05-23-06, 10:05 AM	Control Air Psychokinesis Level: Kineticist 2 Display: Mental Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level) Area: 50-ft.-radius spread Duration: Concentration, up to 1 min./level Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: No Power Points: 3 You have some control over wind speed and direction. The speed of the wind within the area of this power can be increased or decreased by up to 10 miles per hour. You can spend as many as 5 additional power points to augment this power, with each point allowing you to modify the wind speed by an additional 10 miles per hour, to a maximum change in wind speed of 60 miles per hour. This power also gives you the ability to alter the direction of the wind by as much as 90 degrees. Powerful enough winds can cause creatures to be blown away, knocked down, or checked. Augment: See above. Here is the table for wind effects (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/wildernessAndEnvironment.html). If your sepaking of the fort-save on the table, I think they are for resisting the effects of a wind force. If you fail a save, you are: - Checked: Creatures are unable to move forward against the force of the wind. Flying creatures are blown back 1d6×5 feet. - Knocked Down: Creatures are knocked prone by the force of the wind. Flying creatures are instead blown back 1d6×10 feet. - Blown Away: Creatures on the ground are knocked prone and rolled 1d4×10 feet, taking 1d4 points of nonlethal damage per 10 feet. Flying creatures are blown back 2d6×10 feet and take 2d6 points of nonlethal damage due to battering and buffeting. The maximum wind speed of this power is 60ft, therefor these effects are resulting: Windstorm: Powerful enough to bring down branches if not whole trees, windstorms automatically extinguish unprotected flames and have a 75% chance of blowing out protected flames, such as those of lanterns. Ranged weapon attacks are impossible, and even siege weapons have a –4 penalty on attack rolls. Listen checks are at a –8 penalty due to the howling of the wind. Ranged attacks: Impossible Small or smaller: Blown away DC18 Medium: Knocked down DC18 Large or Huge: Checked DC18 If you make the save you aren't affected. That's strange but I think the rules state it like this.
Traevanon 05-23-06, 11:00 AM	What do we use for DCs for listen checks when the target isnt moving, for example: Casting a spell Using a wand or scroll Firing a bow or crossbow Handling an Animal or using another skill 5' Step Also, what is the listen DC for flying, is it the same as walking / running?
Pittbull 05-23-06, 11:11 AM	Listening DC for speaking loudly, e.g. casting a spell or using a scroll without a silenced spell, is 0 plus distance-mod +1/10ft. Same goes for handle animal I would rule. Once the former Elder Jindl ruled that the slap of a bow-string is DC0 plus dis-mod too. Which I personally dislike! Movement (even flying) is covered by move silently. Activating wands doesn't make sounds, except if the spell makes sounds.
SauroGrenom 05-23-06, 12:16 PM	PittBull, Thanks for the prompt reply. I think there are a couple points where I dissagree with your interpreation of the rules and I ask you to reconsider after I point them out. The table lists Fort saves, and those are clearly for natural winds. Magical winds may be different. The Gust of Wind Spell has a save listed as "fortitude negates" and the DC is dependant on the character's primary ability score, not the speed of the wind. Say that a character with an INT modifier of +5 casts Gust of Wind. Then the fort save is only DC7. In that case at least it is clear that the Fort Save may be different from that produced by a natural wind (DC15). So clearly this magical wind is different from a natural wind. If we use a simular analysis on the Control Air power, we see that Control Air power has no save allowed. To me that suggests that Control Air produces an irresistable wind with no save allowed. Simular to how the magic missile has no save allowed, the effect cannot be resisted by a saving throw of any kind. Also the gust of wind spell says that "fortitude save negates". But this is not described in any other place with regard to any other type of wind. It is one interpretation to say that the same save applies to natural winds, but as you pointed out it doesn't make sense. Since it's not described in the rules for natural winds, I think we are free to make our own interpretation that does make sense. In any case such a house rule would probably not even apply to Control Air since that power doesn't allow a save.
MindWandererB 05-23-06, 01:08 PM	Activating wands doesn't make sounds, except if the spell makes sounds.I disagree here. Activating a wand requires you to speak a single word--even if you whisper it, that's a DC 15+distance check.
Ravashack 05-23-06, 04:00 PM	Saurogrenom: I'm not an Elder, so feel free to take my opinion with a grain of salt. However, the main difference between Gust of Wind and Control Air is that Gust of Wind makes its own air. As the description of the spell states in the very first line, it creates a severe blast of air. Control Air requires that the area you are affecting actually have air in the first place in order to actually work. That's why Gust of Wind has a saving throw listed and Control Air doesn't--you could use Gust of Wind underwater for example (although what actually happens when you do is a DM's call), but not Control Air. With that distinction in mind, Control Air has no saving throw in the first place IMO because the thing that should be making the saving throw--the air--can't. If I telekinetically chuck a boulder at you, you don't get a saving throw to avoid getting hit by the boulder either, so why should Control Air be any different? Control Water and Control Weather in the spell section are similar in that regard in that they have no saving throw/SR check.
SauroGrenom 05-23-06, 04:37 PM	I suppose that you may be right in the sense that the language of the spell descriptions are different. Infact the major simularity between them is that both spells create a wind like effect. My point is that the spell stat blocks describe one spell with a save and the other with none. One spell with a consiquence on a failed or successful save, and the other with no save allowed at all. If you argue that the target (thus the entity to make a save) of Control Air is the air, and it is denied a save, then that's a reasonable position. However there are many simular examples that fail using the same logical position. Take Call Lightning. I could argue that this spell is actually acting on a lightning bolt. Or Stinking Cloud is actually acting on the air directly so these spells act on objects that are not allowed a save and shouldn't allow a save in the spell description either. But they do allow saves. So even if a spell effect is acting on a medium that is not able to make a save, when that medium interacts with a character there is often a save mentioned in the spell description. In this case the spell effect denies a save. I think it is reasonable that the entry in the "Save:" category of any area spell is intended to apply to those creatures in the area of the spell. In this case those creatures are denied a save. Aside from that issue is that the Gust of Wind spell is different from natural wind. So the consiquence of making a save vs Gust of Wind doesn't necessarily apply to a natural wind (or Control Air wind). There is not any place in the rules I could find where a natural wind is listed as "fortitude save negates". Even if there was (and I cannot find it) I'm not sure that it would apply to any other magicially created wind (let alone one that denies a save in the spell description). So I think we have already recognized that the idea of "fortitude save negates" doesn't make any sense for a natural wind. So this is an excelent example of a place where a house rule is basicially required (since the core rules have a gap). Also I hope that I've made a reasonable description of my position that Control Air makes a irresistable wind that denies a save to any who are in its area. Perhaps other will agree, or perhaps point out some way in which my poisiton is flawed. edit: Look at Control Winds (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsC.html#control-winds). This is very very simular to Control Air. Both spells act by modifying the wind conditions of an area. Control Winds lists a save, Control Air lists no save.
Ravashack 05-23-06, 06:45 PM	SauroGrenom: For those kinds of arguments, you would first have to find a spell that did not contradict that argument first. Both of those examples already have stuff in the spell description contradicting such an argument (The "Effect:" line for Call Lightning, and the fact that Stinking Cloud states that it creates the cloud). Control Winds really is the wierdo find though. The other thing odd about it IMO is that it states the need for a Fortitude save in the wind speed section but doesn't have a "See text" in the Saving Throw line.
SauroGrenom 05-23-06, 07:11 PM	SauroGrenom: For those kinds of arguments, you would first have to find a spell that did not contradict that argument first. Both of those examples already have stuff in the spell description contradicting such an argument (The "Effect:" line for Call Lightning, and the fact that Stinking Cloud states that it creates the cloud).Energy Ray is a direct target spell that does not act though effecting a medium that then effects the characters. Fire Ball, cone of cold are also examples of spells that target area's directly and directly effect everything in the area and allow a save. Control Wind isn't that funny realy. It's just an area spell that alters the winds up or down, and it has a save as well. Control Air is very simular, but it simply doesn't allow any save. It's simular to fireball, only it doesn't allow a save (or cause direct damage). Control Winds really is the wierdo find though. The other thing odd about it IMO is that it states the need for a Fortitude save in the wind speed section but doesn't have a "See text" in the Saving Throw line. If you treat it like any other spell, then the character's make a fort save vs the spell DC and if they make it they ignore the winds. If they don't make the save they suffer the effects of the winds as described in the winds section. Control Air is simular, but more limited. Control Air has a no save. But Control Winds lasts longer, has a more diverse number of wind patterns, can produce higher winds and can make a safe place for the caster in the center of the effect.
Ravashack 05-23-06, 08:28 PM	Energy Ray is a direct target spell that does not act though effecting a medium that then effects the characters. Fire Ball, cone of cold are also examples of spells that target area's directly and directly effect everything in the area and allow a save. Control Wind isn't that funny realy. It's just an area spell that alters the winds up or down, and it has a save as well. Control Air is very simular, but it simply doesn't allow any save. It's simular to fireball, only it doesn't allow a save (or cause direct damage). Don't want to derail the thread with this particular discussion, so I will take it to PMs later. If you treat it like any other spell, then the character's make a fort save vs the spell DC and if they make it they ignore the winds. If they don't make the save they suffer the effects of the winds as described in the winds section. Control Air is similar, but more limited. Control Air has a no save. But Control Winds lasts longer, has a more diverse number of wind patterns, can produce higher winds and can make a safe place for the caster in the center of the effect. That's not the wierd part I'm talking about. Sure, the spell lists in the upper part "Saving Throw: Fortitude negates". But it lists in the description "Wind Strength: For every three caster levels, you can increase or decrease wind strength by one level. Each round on your turn, a creature in the wind must make a Fortitude save or suffer the effect of being in the windy area." If it is the case you are implying that making a Fort save lets you ignore the winds, why that part about doing it every round? So it's you have an overall save to ignore the spell, and then if you fail that you need to make a save every round you're in it? Or is it that the Fort save in the spell description is just referencing the note in the description? That's what I mean by wierd. Spells that require a save every round usually have "see text" attached to them in the saving throw line.
Pittbull 05-24-06, 03:07 AM	Sauro: You cannot compare the spell control winds with the power control air, because of of a simple reason. The spell is level 5 and the power level 2. This might be the reaon why the power has no special saving-throw and therefor it produces only natural windstorms, which have to use the saving-throws listed in the table.
Pittbull 05-24-06, 03:12 AM	@NiQil: On a side I've read, that you ruled, that dissolving weapon does not affect ranged weapons, like bows. Why did you do this? We got ages of dicussions about this topic, plus an Elder-ruling and stated that DW can be used on the bows itself not the ammunition. Is this only a big misunderstanding from my side?
NiQil 05-24-06, 07:42 AM	@NiQil: On a side I've read, that you ruled, that dissolving weapon does not affect ranged weapons, like bows. Why did you do this? We got ages of dicussions about this topic, plus an Elder-ruling and stated that DW can be used on the bows itself not the ammunition. Is this only a big misunderstanding from my side? I'm not aware of any such discussion or ruling, so if you happen to have a link to that discussion, I would love to see it. The reason I lean in the direction of ruling that dissolving weapon does not apply to ranged weapons is both the wording of the power, as well as the fact that I have not seen anything to indicate that spells/powers that apply additional damage dice transfer that additional damage to ammunition when launched from a launcher (bow, sling, xbow). So if you have any additional insight on that, I would love to hear that as well.
SauroGrenom 05-24-06, 08:22 AM	Sauro: You cannot compare the spell control winds with the power control air, because of of a simple reason. The spell is level 5 and the power level 2.You shouldn't ignore all comparison just because the spell is 5th level and the power is 2nd level. The control winds spell is accessable to all druids and air domain clerics, it has a 10 fold greater durration, the spell can generate much higher winds and the spell can create specialized wind patterns that protect the caster in an area of protection in the center of a violent wind storm. Control Air cannot do any of those things and it is a domain power so only a particular type of psion can use the power (even with stones). Also Control Air is a durration Concentration max 1min/level spell. So the caster must maintain concentration throughout the durration of the spell. In all but one way (the save) this power is far more limited than Control Winds. Considering all the ways in which this power is more limited than Control Winds it is reasonable that it should be a 2nd level power even if it is a power that doesn't allow a save to characters in the affected area (including the caster). The spell description clearly states that both Control Air and Control Winds act in the same way. They both modify the winds within a particular area. Control Winds allows a save to those who may be affected by the power. Control Air does not. It's right there in the stat block of the spell. To ignore that is to break from the Core Rules as Written.
Pittbull 05-24-06, 09:29 AM	I'm not aware of any such discussion or ruling, so if you happen to have a link to that discussion, I would love to see it. The reason I lean in the direction of ruling that dissolving weapon does not apply to ranged weapons is both the wording of the power, as well as the fact that I have not seen anything to indicate that spells/powers that apply additional damage dice transfer that additional damage to ammunition when launched from a launcher (bow, sling, xbow). So if you have any additional insight on that, I would love to hear that as well. Round 5 @Vathelokai: The current ruling by NiQil is that Dissolving Weapon does not affect launchers, like bows. So I am ignoring this buff from your tactics. I looked through the threads, but didn't find the discussion. If you take the example of a flaming bow, it transfers extra dice on the ammunition. Or if you take the example of deep-crystal.
Pittbull 05-24-06, 09:36 AM	@Sauro: I cannot see the reason, why we should make control air stronger as it is. It is a level 2 power, which has clear rules: saving-throws aren't deriving from the manifester's ability, it creates natural winds and therefor the save are the same that mother nature produces. Sorry, this is my personal opinion.
SauroGrenom 05-24-06, 10:18 AM	@Sauro: I cannot see the reason, why we should make control air stronger as it is. It is a level 2 power, which has clear rules: saving-throws aren't deriving from the manifester's ability, it creates natural winds and therefor the save are the same that mother nature produces. Sorry, this is my personal opinion.I don't see this underlined part as being clear at all. The power simply states that there is no save. Period. No save. Control Wind, spike stones, and a couple other spells effect the environment and allow saves. This tells us that if a save is allowed when characters interact with the spell effect, then it is mentioned in the spell description. In the description for Control Air the save entry read "none". So no save allowed. It is extrapolation from the rules on your part to suggest that the spell creates winds that use save DC's at all. Other spells that create winds (or many other effects) list saves in the spell desription if they are allowed. The entry that reads "none" tells us that there is no save to resist the effects of this spell. The spell description says "Powerful enough winds can cause creatures to be blown away, knocked down, or checked." It does not say "Powerful enough winds can cause creatures that fail their save to be blown away, knocked down, or checked." I don't think we should be putting new more limiting words into the spell description. Rather just read it like any other spell description. If a save is allowed to resist the effect, then it is listed. If no save is allowed to resist the effect, then the save entry reads "none". I'm not saying that we make this power more effective at all. I'm just saying we should recognize the effectiveness of the power as written. (also when I first brought up the question, I hadn't looked at these other simular spells that all list a save when it is allowed)
Pittbull 05-24-06, 10:37 AM	Ok, let me show it this way. Let's take another example: Another spell which influences the surrounding of a character, without a saving-throw is create water. If the character is in a very small room and the amount of water fills the space completely doesn't get the character a saving-throw from drowning, because there is no saving throw listed in the spell-discription? The point is, is it a magic wind or a natural?
SauroGrenom 05-24-06, 11:02 AM	Clearly it is a magical wind. An antimagic field (AMF) will negate the effect of Control Air where the area overlaps. Create water cannot be cast inside of an AMF, but the water once created is not magical in any way. So that normal water can flow into an AMF and fill a small chamber where a hapless character drowns. This is natural water since it is not dispelled by an AMF and the spell is durration instantanious. Once the magic of creation is done, it is done and the result is not magical. The spell's effect has happened and its durration is expired and the description of the spell is not an issue any more. Simular to a Wall of Iron. The iron is not magical in any way after the spell is cast. A wall of iron previously cast cannot be dispelled, or negated by an AMF. These examples are very different from Control Air which has a continuing magical effect that can be dispelled or negated in an AMF. Also the durration of Control Air is concentration max 1min/level. As soon as the caster stops concentrating, the wind is gone. This is not the case with Create Water. All those spells (so far as I can find) that have truely natural effects are durration instantanious.
NiQil 05-24-06, 09:44 PM	I looked through the threads, but didn't find the discussion. If you take the example of a flaming bow, it transfers extra dice on the ammunition. Or if you take the example of deep-crystal. Yes, but in the example of a flaming bow, the flaming enchantment specifically states that the extra damage dice transfer to ammunition in the case of launchers. This would lend creedence to my belief that the norm is for this to not occur unless it specifically says it does. If you look at all of the ranged weapon enchantments that can be added, those that transfer to ammunition state specifically that they do. Deep crystal also specifically states that the extra damage transfers to ammunition, which again, lends support to my view that normally extra damage dice do not transfer to ammunition unless they specifically say they do. In the absence of any quote to the contrary, I don't see anything else that would lead me to believe that my ruling is inaccurate. Enhancement bonuses do transfer, because I found a quote that specifically state that enhancement bonuses carry over to ammunition. But I have seen nothing to indicate the same can be said of spells/powers that add additional damage dice such as Dissolving Weapon. Unless someone can find quotes that state otherwise, or can come up with a very good argument to the contrary, this would be my ruling as it stands now.
Gonbow 05-26-06, 04:33 PM	I've got some questions regarding various Elocater powers... Scorn Earth (Su): At 1st level, an elocater’s feet lift from the ground. From now on, she can float a foot above the ground. Instead of walking she glides along, unconcerned with the hard earth or difficult terrain. While she remains within 1 foot of a flat surface of any solid or liquid, she can take normal actions and make normal attacks, and can move at her normal speed (she can even “run” at four times her normal speed). However, at distances higher than 1 foot above any surface, her speed diminishes to 10 feet per round. While she remains within 1 foot of a surface, she can make melee and ranged attacks normally, but if she moves any higher, she incurs the penalties on melee and ranged attack rolls as if she were the subject of the psionic levitate power. This power lays out what happens if the Elocater is somehow higher than one foot, but doesn't give rules for how this comes about; is it implied that the elocater can move about as though under the Psionic Levitate power? Or more 10' in any direction away from the ground with a move action? Or that if she 'jumps' up, she wont come down? What exactly is going on here? Opportunistic Strike (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level, an elocater’s hyperawareness of spatial relations gives her an instinctive view of the battlefield, which allows her to make a cunning attack against distracted opponents. The elocater gains a +2 insight bonus on her attack roll and her damage roll (if the attack hits) for the first attack she makes against an opponent that has been dealt damage in melee by another character since the elocater’s last action. At 5th level the insight bonus increases to +4, and at 8th level the insight bonus increases to +6. What qualifies 'character'? Non-animal allies? Allies with an ECL? Something that a 'player' directly controls?
MindWandererB 05-26-06, 06:27 PM	I've got some questions regarding various Elocater powers... This power lays out what happens if the Elocater is somehow higher than one foot, but doesn't give rules for how this comes about; is it implied that the elocater can move about as though under the Psionic Levitate power? Or more 10' in any direction away from the ground with a move action? Or that if she 'jumps' up, she wont come down? What exactly is going on here? What qualifies 'character'? Non-animal allies? Allies with an ECL? Something that a 'player' directly controls?For the former, I've always inferred that, although the elocator cannot use Scorn Earth to ascend any higher than 1', they can still maintain any altitude they happen to be at by some other means (jumping, flight, etc.). For the latter, D&D terminology always uses "character" and "creature" interchangably. PHB, p. 181.
Traevanon 05-27-06, 12:56 AM	Question: Invisibility (as far as I can tell) gives a static Spot DC of 20 + distance + size?. Hide modifiers dont apply if you are invisible without cover. Is this the case? On a second read, the rules are contradictory. In the Spot Rules you can become aware of an Invisible person near you with a 20, in the hide rules Invisibility offers a +20 bonus to Hide. I'm not sure how to go with this, though I'm leaning toward the +20 hide. Oh, and in addition does Chameleon (+10 Hide) stack with Invisibility (+20 Hide). It wouldnt seem logical... but then again this is D&D.
bluemage55 05-27-06, 04:29 AM	I believe the static DC is for instances in which the creature is not attempting to hide, whereas the +20 bonus is for instances in which they are actively hiding. Thus an invisible creature running around in the open would have a static DC, while the invisible creature behind the wall is getting a substantial bonus.
Stormwind 05-27-06, 05:45 AM	Since I have spent a lot of time familiarising myself with the hiding/spotting rules with Cyra, here are my interpretations of the rules: If a creature is invisible and able to hide (has cover or concealment*) - In the case that an invisible creature is hiding, and not moving (hide skill +distance modifier +40) - In the case that an invisible creature is hiding, and moving (hide skill +distance modifier +20) - In the case that an invisible creature has drunk an elixir of hiding and tapped a tattoo of chameleon, is hiding and moving (hide skill +distance modifier +20(invisible) +10(competence) +10(enhancement)) - In the case that an invisible creature has drunk an elixir of hiding and tapped a tattoo of chameleon, is hiding and not moving (hide skill +distance modifier +40(invisible) +10(competence) +10(enhancement)) If a creature is invisible and not able to hide (does not have cover or concealment*) - In the case that an invisible creature is not hiding, and is completely still (distance modifier +40) - In the case that an invisible creature is not hiding, and not moving (distance modifier +30) - In the case that an invisible creature is not hiding, and moving (distance modifier +20) *: Given the CoCo rules you cannot hide in spell effects that grant concealment and affect only you, and thus cannot use the concealment granted by the invisibility to hide. However since invisibility grants total concealment, you can hide within this effect. Edit: Corrected my interpretation due to Pittbull's clarification of the CoCo hiding rules.
Traevanon 05-27-06, 07:25 AM	Thanks a bunch, that clears it up.
TheMagister 05-28-06, 07:32 AM	Question: If a monk can use flurry of blows while grappled, and a psychic warrior can use psionic fist while grappled, what prevents a monk from using stunning fist while grappled? TM
TheMagister 05-28-06, 11:18 AM	Question #2: is it possible to have a half-orc rogue (Intelligence score of 6) as a cohort, or must he be obtained via the Leadership feat? TM
Salrantol 05-29-06, 09:44 AM	How many spell levels does a spell memorized in or cast from a higher-level slot cost in the arena? For example, if a cleric with the Strength domain wants to have multiple castings of Enlarge Person available for the three-fight-cycle, and memorizes Enlarge Person in his second-level domain slot, does it cost him 1 spell level (for the spell) or 2 spell levels (for the slot) to cast it?
Pittbull 05-29-06, 01:48 PM	@Stormwind: Of course you can hide in the CoCo, having invisibility, it grants like total concealment (50%)and is fairly enough (without having cover). The rule aplies only on spells like blur or concealing amorpha (20% misschance). @TM: Why should it be dissallowed to use stunning fist on a grapple check? You need leadership, for the half-orc, I'm pretty sure. @Salrantol: Don't you need heighten spell to memorizes a spell in a higher slot-level? But then you have to pay the higher costs of course too.
MindWandererB 05-29-06, 03:05 PM	@Salrantol: Don't you need heighten spell to memorizes a spell in a higher slot-level? But then you have to pay the higher costs of course too.No, you don't. PHB, p. 178, under "Spell Slots." Heighten just cause the actual spell level to go up for the purposes of save DC and things like Globe of Invulnerability.
TheMagister 05-30-06, 07:07 PM	@TM: Why should it be dissallowed to use stunning fist on a grapple check? You need leadership, for the half-orc, I'm pretty sure. I certainly couldn't think of a reason why not, but I wanted to ask to be sure, since I don't think I've ever seen one of our famous grappling-monk-types actually DO it. Thank you, sir! TM
Traevanon 05-30-06, 08:03 PM	I was wondering a few things regarding actions: - I have been buying items as using up my free action, can I buy items and still craft things or do something else? - When I buy something I put it in my prebuff section, then I actually have it after the next fight. Is this the correct method or can I just buy stuff and use it immediately? How will this be affected by the 3FC? - I was thinking about buying a chest and a lock to keep some things in. Will this have any effect on attempts at thievery against me? - What happens if I level up (pretty likely) during a 3FC? I think I treat it like leveling up in the middle of the day but I'm not sure. Thanks
MindWandererB 05-30-06, 08:59 PM	I was wondering a few things regarding actions: - I have been buying items as using up my free action, can I buy items and still craft things or do something else?Buying stuff is an action only if you use a skill for it (like appraise or gather info). Otherwise you can do all the shopping you want and still craft. - When I buy something I put it in my prebuff section, then I actually have it after the next fight. Is this the correct method or can I just buy stuff and use it immediately? How will this be affected by the 3FC?Purchases don't go in the prebuff section except for NPC services, which, like everything else, can only be bought between cycles (but they stay buffed during the whole cycle if not expended/expired). Under the 3FC, you can only make purchases between cycles, and you have them immediately. Item-gaining free activities, like crafting or bargaining, don't actually net you the item(s) until the end of the cycle. - I was thinking about buying a chest and a lock to keep some things in. Will this have any effect on attempts at thievery against me?Nope. - What happens if I level up (pretty likely) during a 3FC? I think I treat it like leveling up in the middle of the day but I'm not sure.Yup. You don't get the level until the end of the cycle.
Salrantol 05-30-06, 10:05 PM	- I was thinking about buying a chest and a lock to keep some things in. Will this have any effect on attempts at thievery against me?Not by itself, but you can buy a trap also and foil thieves who fail to beat the Disable Device DC. Two good, affordable traps are the "razor wire across hallway" trap and the "fusillade of darts trap". Be sure to buy from Laffinger's Trap Emporium, on Orcish Bargain Hunter Way.
SauroGrenom 05-31-06, 12:06 PM	Since there was no reply I cannot tell if you were persuaded or not by my last post here.
Pittbull 05-31-06, 03:54 PM	Sorry Sauro, I was pretty busy and forgot to reply. Your points are all pretty good, but I'm still not completely persuaded. I still have problems with the idea of making the power better than it is written in the SRD. I hope any other Elder replies too. Do I get you right? You like to have savingthrows against a manifester DC? With solicite psicrystal this can be pretty powerfull in the arena so we need to be careful.
Traevanon 05-31-06, 10:31 PM	One more question regarding commerce. Can I sell my goods back to the market (at 50% or some other number)? I am considering selling a couple of my crafted (masterwork) items back to upgrade armor.
Zevox 05-31-06, 10:33 PM	One more question regarding commerce. Can I sell my goods back to the market (at 50% or some other number)? I am considering selling a couple of my crafted (masterwork) items back to upgrade armor. You can indeed. You get half the market price for any item you sell back. Zevox
SauroGrenom 06-01-06, 09:23 AM	Sorry Sauro, I was pretty busy and forgot to reply.No problem. Let's get this figured out before the boards are going again. ...I still have problems with the idea of making the power better than it is written in the SRD. I hope any other Elder replies too.We have differing opinions about what I'm trying to do with this line of argument. I'm not trying to make the power more powerfull than it is in the SRD. When I first asked the question I was tryiung to understand how the power worked, and now that I've researched simular spells and powers, it is clear to me how it works and I'm trying to get you to agree. I'm simply trying to read the rules as written to understand how the power works especially in light of simular spells. Do I get you right? You like to have savingthrows against a manifester DC? With solicite psicrystal this can be pretty powerfull in the arena so we need to be careful.Not quite. I think that there should be no save of any kind. The power has a save entry that reads "none". So there should be no save to resist the effects of the power. The power of Control Air is being overstated even when the spell description is read like any other spell description (ie there is no save to resist). Keep in mind that it has a limited area, that it is a concentration durration power, it has a relatively low limit on the potency of winds it can produce, it has a short durraction as a maximum, it does not cause direct damage (ok subdual damage but that's not too bad), those who are subject to the power are moved at a high rate of speed so will leave the area very quickly and the caster is effected if inside the area (requiring additional concentration checks to maintain concentration in a wind storm). All of these factors will limit the effectiveness of this power in the Arena. Even if you use Solicit Psicrystal you are generating a power with a 1round/level durration that will not damage your foes and probably effects only flying creatures. Furthermore you are required to concentrate or manifest a second power to have your crystal concentrate (it must still make concentration checks). To my mind this is a reasonable power (with no save) considering that it is a discipline power and can only be used by Kineticists.
Stormwind 06-01-06, 10:33 AM	@Stormwind: Of course you can hide in the CoCo, having invisibility, it grants like total concealment (50%)and is fairly enough (without having cover). The rule aplies only on spells like blur or concealing amorpha (20% misschance). Ok. I just reread the CoCo house rules and I have to agree that it's obvious. I will edit my previous post to reflect this. However, it does raise another question: Would this mean that you can hide in any effect that grants total concealment, rather than concealment? In particular I am thinking about the feat cloak dance (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicFeats.html#cloak-dance). If you had this feat and used a full round action to grant total concealment, would you be able to hide within this effect?
Pittbull 06-01-06, 10:37 AM	Ah, now I understand. You say, there is no save against the effects of the power. That means, if you concentrate until the windstorm-speed in reaches, that every: - small or smaller creature is Blown Away: Creatures on the ground are knocked prone and rolled 1d4×10 feet, taking 1d4 points of nonlethal damage per 10 feet. Flying creatures are blown back 2d6×10 feet and take 2d6 points of nonlethal damage due to battering and buffeting. - medium creature is Knocked Down: Creatures are knocked prone by the force of the wind. Flying creatures are instead blown back 1d6×10 feet. - large creature is Checked: Creatures are unable to move forward against the force of the wind. Flying creatures are blown back 1d6×5 feet. Combined with the fact that your are immune against mundane range weapon like bow,x-bow, etc., a manifester having this power active can be only attacked with magic or pisonic powers or a creature that is huge. Maybe you can crawl forward towards the manifester? You say that isn't too powerful for a 2nd level discipline power?
SauroGrenom 06-01-06, 11:09 AM	Firstly inorder to generate winds so severe that ranged attacks are impossible (60 MPH) your must spend 8pp. This is nearly equivalent to the cost of a 4th level spell. Second you are ignoring the fact that if you want to be inside of the area of effect (thus immune to ranged attacks) that your medium sized psion will also be knocked down and roll some distance taking damage. Thirdly your medium sized psion must succeed on concentration checks to maintain concentration while inside of the effect. The concentration DC to maintain concentration in the wind is given in the concentration skill as being the DC that would be allowed if the wind had a save (thus you own high ability scores hurt you). Then another concentration check is required to maintain concentration while taking subdual damage. Then a 3rd check would probably be required as long as you are being rolled by the winds (I guess DC20). Fail any of these checks and the power ends. Forthly the rate that a victim is moved by the wind is so rapid that in 1-3 rounds nearly every creature effected will move out of the area. Fithly I cannot find rules that allow you to move the area of effect of the spell. So once foes are blown out of the area, they can easily avoid it in the future. Sixth you are required to concentrate all the time to maintain the effect. Thus you are limited to 1 move action each round so long as you continue the effect. Seven if you use solicit psycrystal then your crystal must make concentration checks inside of the wind (since it is diminutive it suffers far worse effects than a medium creature and the DC to maintain concentration will be higher) and the cost of the power is 13pp equivalent to a 6th level spell and the durration of the power is reduced to 1 round/level. Lastly we are not creating a power here. We are reading the description of a power in the SRD. We are reading it as written. There is not realy any room for arbitration. The description must be read the same as any other description. If a save is allowed the save entry lists it. If no save is allowed the save entry reads "none". Period. End of story. This is not overpowered. Not by a long shot. The caster is not immune to any of the effects of his power, and making the power effective requires augmenting it. The cost of augmented powers is high enough that it is comparable to Control Wind, while control wind is a far more potent spell (longer durration, more powerfull winds, no concentration required and the caster can sit in a protected area in the center unaffected by the winds). Get it out of you head that this or any 2nd level power should be equivalent to scorching ray. It's not. If unaugmented this power does nothing except create a gentle breeze. To have any usefull effect this power (and many other 2nd level powers) must be augmented and will therefore become equivalent in cost to a spell of higher level.
Pittbull 06-01-06, 11:18 AM	Get it out of you head that this or any 2nd level power should be equivalent to scorching ray. It's not. If unaugmented this power does nothing except create a gentle breeze. To have any usefull effect this power (and many other 2nd level powers) must be augmented and will therefore become equivalent in cost to a spell of higher level. Now, you got me! I'm persuaded!
Pittbull 06-01-06, 11:21 AM	In particular I am thinking about the feat cloak dance. If you had this feat and used a full round action to grant total concealment, would you be able to hide within this effect? I believe, this feat is made for being able to hide! CLOAK DANCE [GENERAL] You are skilled at using optical tricks to make yourself seem to be where you are not. Prerequisites: Hide 10 ranks, Perform (dance) 2 ranks. Benefit: You can take a move action to obscure your exact position. Until your next turn, you have concealment. Alternatively, you can take a full-round action to entirely obscure your exact position. Until your next action, you have total concealment.
DSugui 06-26-06, 10:27 PM	Can I teach an animal to disarm an opponent (as a trick)?
SauroGrenom 06-26-06, 11:07 PM	Can I teach an animal to disarm an opponent (as a trick)? I would say yes. Although the success of such an attempt may be limited. I recall that all natural weapons are treated as light. So you will take a penalty on the check for that. Also the creature will grant an AoO every attempt unless it has the improved disarm feat. Finally since the improved disarm feat requires combat expertise, no animal will ever qualify for it.
DSugui 06-27-06, 12:33 AM	I would say yes. Although the success of such an attempt may be limited. I recall that all natural weapons are treated as light. So you will take a penalty on the check for that. Also the creature will grant an AoO every attempt unless it has the improved disarm feat. Finally since the improved disarm feat requires combat expertise, no animal will ever qualify for it. I am aware of that. I am only thinking on those annoying wands of CLW. Everybody seems to have one these days...
MindWandererB 06-27-06, 01:23 AM	You might be better off training it to sunder. The odds ought to be a little bit higher, plus the wand stays destroyed. If an animal succeeds on a disarm, the opponent can just pick the wand up again. And Improved Sunder is an attainable feat for an animal.
DSugui 06-27-06, 02:32 AM	That may be. But disarming the animal can give the wand to the character, who can use it :D
SauroGrenom 06-27-06, 08:05 AM	That may be. But disarming the animal can give the wand to the character, who can use it :D It is my understanding that only claw and maybe tentacle attacls can also be used to hold a weapon. So your animal will only be able to hold the weapon if it has one of those attacks. Most likely the weapon will end on the ground.
Pittbull 06-27-06, 08:21 AM	In my last fight with Barthleby, MindWanderer and I got a small problem with Freedom of Movement. I wanted to use this spell to move without hinderrance through the forrest, even through the canopy and heavy undergrowth. I have the impression that the spell helps for this purpose. MindWanderer said that it isn't explicitely written in the dispriction (only movement under water). Freedom of Movement Abjuration Level: Brd 4, Clr 4, Drd 4, Luck 4, Rgr 4 Components: V, S, M, DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal or touch Target: You or creature touched Duration: 10 min./level Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin. The spell also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater, even with slashing weapons such as axes and swords or with bludgeoning weapons such as flails, hammers, and maces, provided that the weapon is wielded in the hand rather than hurled. The freedom of movement spell does not, however, allow water breathing. Material Component: A leather thong, bound around the arm or a similar appendage. I think the main word in the discription is "even", you can always move normally, regardless the terrain, during the duration of the spell and even spells won't affect the caster. Would someone, please, confirm this?
SoulLord 06-27-06, 09:28 AM	I'm always reluctant to post answers here since I'm not an elder but if freedom of movement allows you to move freely through solid fog it seems to me that difficult terrain should be even easier. This spell not only affects magical hindrances but as has been pointed out water and grappling two clearly non magical effects.
SauroGrenom 06-27-06, 04:43 PM	Pittbull, I agree with your interpreation on Freedom of Movement. It should grant protection against all things that limit movement "even" but not only magical intervantions. You should also be free of all non-magical limitations on movement as well. That would include heavy armor, encumbarance, entangelment or difficult terrain. It is also interesting to think about if it would allow a flying creature to ignore some of the limits on its movement due to a low movement class. But that's beside the point you are asking. Sauro
MindWandererB 06-27-06, 05:00 PM	Yeah, I ended up leaning in that direction myself. It turned out not to be relevant for the non-fight, which is why I didn't mention it. However, it raises the question of where exactly do you draw the line? If it allows you to ignore physical impediments, the extreme example would be a wall. Obviously you can't walk through walls. But what about a magical wall, say a Wall of Force? That's definitely "magic that usually impedes movement." But that's probably not what they meant. It's not enough to say that the spell eliminates any restriction of movement, because of the above example. You also can't say that it only works on effects that reduce or hamper movement, but do not stop it entirely, because grappling and paralysis do just that, and they are specifically mentioned. And then there's blindness. A blind creature moves at half speed. Does that mean that a creature under both Blindness and Freedom of Movement moves at full speed? That doesn't make much sense. I'm also not sure about heavy armor and heavy loads. If this ruling stays, I'll have to remember Freedom of Movement as a partial countermeasure to Ray of Enfeeblement.
JohnSteel 06-28-06, 12:49 PM	Is it legal to get you´r opponent to surrender using spells like charm person, sugestion and Hypnotism??
TelinArtho 06-28-06, 12:57 PM	The simple answer is that in most cases - those spells are too limited to be able to do what you want. Dominate person would probably be strong enough. In the case of Charm person, you are faced with a difficult ruling. To my knowledge, it was used effectively to temporarily gain someone to work on your side in a free for all, but in a 1 on 1 fight - it wouldn't work because you are already the perceived enemy. The same would apply to Hypnotism in most cases. Suggestion to get the character to surrender falls under the category of "Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act" - since a surrender is in effect a "death." Auto-win spells for low level characters are not all that rare though - as sleep and hold person frequently mean the demise of your opponent.
SauroGrenom 06-28-06, 01:13 PM	Yeah, I ended up leaning in that direction myself. It turned out not to be relevant for the non-fight, which is why I didn't mention it. However, it raises the question of where exactly do you draw the line? If it allows you to ignore physical impediments, the extreme example would be a wall. Obviously you can't walk through walls. But what about a magical wall, say a Wall of Force? That's definitely "magic that usually impedes movement." But that's probably not what they meant. It's not enough to say that the spell eliminates any restriction of movement, because of the above example. You also can't say that it only works on effects that reduce or hamper movement, but do not stop it entirely, because grappling and paralysis do just that, and they are specifically mentioned. And then there's blindness. A blind creature moves at half speed. Does that mean that a creature under both Blindness and Freedom of Movement moves at full speed? That doesn't make much sense. I'm also not sure about heavy armor and heavy loads. If this ruling stays, I'll have to remember Freedom of Movement as a partial countermeasure to Ray of Enfeeblement. Well the spell description does say that it "allows you to move and attack normally". So you cannot normally walk through a wall. Not a wall of any kind. But I think it basicially means that any condition that applies a penalty the character's movement speed is not effective. So you are correct about blindness. The penalty would not apply. Nor would the penalty for moving over difficult terrain apply. This is not to say that magical objects that impeed movement are less effective than a natural one. So Force Cage will still impeed movement as a barrier. So will all "wall" spells. Only conditions that specificially limit movement and ability to attack are negated by the spell.
Zelck 07-04-06, 05:23 PM	What does Up The Walls allow you to walk on? Can you walk up the statues in Cavern and Temple maps? The trees in the forest map?
TheMagister 07-04-06, 05:49 PM	EDIT: TheMagister, you're NOT AN ELDER YOU DUMMY. Editted by TheMagister. :blush: TM
SauroGrenom 07-04-06, 08:47 PM	What does Up The Walls allow you to walk on? Can you walk up the statues in Cavern and Temple maps? The trees in the forest map? To answer this question we need to start with the srd: UP THE WALLS [PSIONIC] You can run on walls for brief distances. Prerequisite: Wis 13. Benefit: While you are psionically focused, you can take part of one of your move actions to traverse a wall or other relatively smooth vertical surface if you begin and end your move on a horizontal surface. The height you can achieve on the wall is limited only by this movement restriction. If you do not end your move on a horizontal surface, you fall prone, taking falling damage as appropriate for your distance above the ground. Treat the wall as a normal floor for the purpose of measuring your movement. Passing from floor to wall or wall to floor costs no movement; you can change surfaces freely. Opponents on the ground can make attacks of opportunity as you move up the wall.Alright, determining what you can do with this feat is dependant on deciding what counts as a "relatively smooth" vertical surface. Obviously walls count. But do cavern walls, tree trunks, and statues count as relatively smooth vertical surfaces? I would say any given square of wall surface can be considere "relatively smooth" if you can imagine a 5' square surface as being as smooth as a horizontal surface with no movement penalty. This still leaves much room for interpretation, but it is the "rule of thumb" that I'll apply to answer these questions. Specificially a statue is not a "smooth" surface since there would be apendages and such sticking out at various places. Also a tree trunk would be a smooth surface assuming we are talking about the first several feet of a large tree in a forest with a canopy, where the first several feat lack branches. If it were a smaller tree or the heights of a large tree, then the branches would be enough of a barrier to imped movement and prevent the feat from helping you. I hope that is clear and that other elders will agree.
NiQil 07-04-06, 08:57 PM	To answer this question we need to start with the srd: Alright, determining what you can do with this feat is dependant on deciding what counts as a "relatively smooth" vertical surface. Obviously walls count. But do cavern walls, tree trunks, and statues count as relatively smooth vertical surfaces? I would say any given square of wall surface can be considere "relatively smooth" if you can imagine a 5' square surface as being as smooth as a horizontal surface with no movement penalty. This still leaves much room for interpretation, but it is the "rule of thumb" that I'll apply to answer these questions. Specificially a statue is not a "smooth" surface since there would be apendages and such sticking out at various places. Also a tree trunk would be a smooth surface assuming we are talking about the first several feet of a large tree in a forest with a canopy, where the first several feat lack branches. If it were a smaller tree or the heights of a large tree, then the branches would be enough of a barrier to imped movement and prevent the feat from helping you. I hope that is clear and that other elders will agree. I would agree with everything except the last bit about trees. I view tree bark as a definite un-smooth surface, and I don't think the feat would be allowed on that surface. To put it another way, if you had a floor of wall material, and a floor of treebark material, would you allow a charge over the treebark material? I would count it as difficult terrain, which would not allow a charge. Thus, I would not allow the feat to be used on trees, unless they have been smoothed in some way (such as a tree that has been debarked and is now just exposing it's smoother inner wooden surface). I think that using the same qualifications for surfaces with regard to charging would make the most sense in regard to the surfaces that Up The Walls can be used on.
SauroGrenom 07-04-06, 10:02 PM	I'd allow a person to charge across a field with short grasses. I'd also allow a person to charge down a cobelstone stree or across a cavern floor or down an ancient hallway with 300 years of dust and crumbling mortar on the ground or maybe even down a gravel road. I think all these surfaces are not technicially smooth in the sense of a pane of glass, but they are probably about as smooth as the trunk of a large tree like an oak, elm or willow. A berch tree may be a different matter since the bark falls off all the time, and if there was moss on the tree it would be difficult (slippery) terrain as well. *Shrug* I think we have the same criterion, but a slight difference of opinion on how rough a surface needs to be in order to cause a movement penalty. When I was younger I climbed several trees, and dry tree bark gave my sneekers at least as much traction as the painted cinderblock wall of the gym.
SauroGrenom 07-05-06, 01:16 PM	Can you use the Overchannel feat and apply it to PSI-Like Abilities?
TelinArtho 07-05-06, 01:49 PM	By virtue of the existence of Empower/Quicken Spell Like Ability - I would say probably not. Just a thought though.
SauroGrenom 07-05-06, 02:02 PM	By virtue of the existence of Empower/Quicken Spell Like Ability - I would say probably not. Just a thought though. Yea I thought about that. The major difference is that Empower and Quicken are metamagic/metapsionic. While Overchannel is a simple ML boost. I think Overchannel is more simular to feats like Spell Penetration. I cannot find a mention about feats like spell penetration applying or not applying to spell-like abilities.
DSugui 07-05-06, 02:22 PM	Yea I thought about that. The major difference is that Empower and Quicken are metamagic/metapsionic. While Overchannel is a simple ML boost. I think Overchannel is more simular to feats like Spell Penetration. I cannot find a mention about feats like spell penetration applying or not applying to spell-like abilities. In the Complete Psionic it is mentioned that Power Penetration and Psionic Endowment both apply the same way for powers and psi-like abilities, only Metapsionics feats don't. So I think Overchannel can be used with psi-like abilities.
TheMagister 07-05-06, 03:26 PM	In the Complete Psionic it is mentioned that Power Penetration and Psionic Endowment both apply the same way for powers and psi-like abilities, only Metapsionics feats don't. So I think Overchannel can be used with psi-like abilities. Isn't that what the MM 1 feat "Ability Focus" is for? TM
DSugui 07-05-06, 03:48 PM	Isn't that what the MM 1 feat "Ability Focus" is for? TM I think you can use both :D Since you have to expend your focus to use Psionic Endowment, it is essencially diferent from Spell/Ability Focus. Remember that magic and psionics are the same, but different... Oh, well. Maybe it's just a error from the game designers...
SauroGrenom 07-05-06, 05:01 PM	In the Complete Psionic it is mentioned that Power Penetration and Psionic Endowment both apply the same way for powers and psi-like abilities, only Metapsionics feats don't. So I think Overchannel can be used with psi-like abilities. Good to know. Thanks! And I don't think this overlaps with the use of Ability Focus. That feat is more specialized. It applies to a single ability every time with no expenditure of psionic focus. Also it applies to the save DC only. Power penetration applies to defeating SR, and Overchannel applies to all ML dependant effects and both use psionic focus.
Book5 07-07-06, 04:24 PM	Regarding the Free Actions: Drawing, Sheathing, Palming, Lifting, and Loading, The rules are somewhat stringy in this regard, so here is a coco clarification. If you have a +1 BAB or better you can ready items to be drawn or sheathed. Drawing is free action that must be part of a regular move. Drawing or sheathing a weapon, or weapon-like item, can only be performed as part of a regular move action. Sheathing an item that has been readied, and later drawn, is normally a move action. However, you may also sheath a previously readied weapon (or weapon-like item) as a free action in conjunction with a regular move the same as drawing. If you have a +1 BAB or better you can ready an ammo pouch to be loaded. Loading ammo is a free action that must be part of the normal use of the ammo. Arrows for bows, bullets for slings, bolts for crossbows; all these ammunitions are drawn as a free action in part of their normal use with their respective ranged weapon. Any ready ammunition is (also/not) considered a ready improvised weapon to be drawn or sheathed. Readying a weapon or ammo container to be drawn, or loaded, is a standard action that does not provoke AoO. You can ready any item to be drawn as an improvised weapon, but all ready marked equipment is also available for sundering, theft (lifting), and must save vs. environmental damage and area spells/effects. To be considered ready an item must simply be declared as ready on your character sheet, or your tactics. Drawing a ready weapon does not provoke an AoO; sheathing one does. Loading ammo doesn’t, but firing the ranged weapon will. The most important thing to remember is the declaration of equipment that is ready vs. that which is stored (aka hidden), and the fact that these actions are only available as part of other actions, not as independent actions. Similar to the draw, sheath, and loading special activities of the “Manipulate Object Action” there is the palm and lift actions of the Slight of Hand skill. Palming allows you to hide small items in your storage, lifting takes items from others’ storage and puts them in your hand. Truly successful Slight of Hand checks are never perceived by the observers, and therefore cannot generally provoke an AoO. Failing a Slight of Hand check can often provoke an AoO, but not always. *** Palming does not provoke an AoO, and it is a check with two DCs. The base DC to perform the act of palming is DC 10. Succeeding at both the base DC and opposed checks allows the small item to open or close (scroll case), activate or expire (tinder twig), and be hidden or unhidden (anything small enough to fit in a pocket) without observers becoming the wiser. Failure to meet the base DC results in a waste of a standard action, and generally makes a fool out of you because more than likely everyone saw you fail. Defeating the base DC, but not the opposed checks results in the item being stored and hidden from other combatants. A stored item is hidden from other combatants, and you will need to be grappled, pinned, and searched (DC = to your Slight of Hand or Simple Dexterity Check result) for another combatant to disarm (or lift) any stored item from your character, even when they know its there. As an untrained palming action you may store (hide), or retrieve (palm), any small item. This requires a standard action, does not provoke an AoO, and does not have a base DC. You cannot perform more complicated manipulations (opening closing, igniting), and you may not attempt to palm as a free action untrained. Your basic dexterity modifier is used to palm untrained. Lifting is the act of removing a small item from a mark’s inventory and placing it in your hands: all without being noticed. Similar to palming, lifting has a base DC (20) and an opposed DC (observer spot checks). Success on the base DC results in the small item relocating to the lifter’s hand. Failure on the opposed check provokes an AoO and, presumably, further retaliation. Even if the item is in the mark’s hand, if the slight of hand check meets the DC 20 the item is lifted. Failing the opposed check simply provokes an AoO – if the AoO is successful the lifter must make a concentration check or fail to complete the Slight of Hand action. *** LL was gonna say something.. but I havent seent the crazy cow around lately.
MindWandererB 07-09-06, 12:59 AM	Discussion continued from the Tavern: Can a psicrystal take the Leadership feat? There seems to be no reason why not, as long as you (and thus it) have at least 6 HD: Hit Die In the singular form, a die rolled to generate hit points. In the plural form, a measure of relative power that is synonymous with character level for the sake of spells, magic items, and magical effects that affect a certain number of Hit Dice (HD) of creatures.Of course, this would fall under the "allies of my ally" rule and thus would count against your Max CA and cost you fight rewards. But it seems like an absurd thing to allow at any cost.
NiQil 07-09-06, 01:06 AM	Discussion continued from the Tavern: Can a psicrystal take the Leadership feat? There seems to be no reason why not, as long as you (and thus it) have at least 6 HD:Of course, this would fall under the "allies of my ally" rule and thus would count against your Max CA and cost you fight rewards. But it seems like an absurd thing to allow at any cost. You seem to have answered your own question, as I posted in the Tavern. Nowhere in your quote does it say that hit dice equal character levels when it comes to feats. HD provide feats just like character levels, but the definition of HD does not say that HD count as character levels for the purposes of qualifying for feats. So no leadership for psicrystals.
MindWandererB 07-09-06, 01:19 AM	You seem to have answered your own question, as I posted in the Tavern. Nowhere in your quote does it say that hit dice equal character levels when it comes to feats. HD provide feats just like character levels, but the definition of HD does not say that HD count as character levels for the purposes of qualifying for feats. So no leadership for psicrystals.That's... pretty nitpicky. And worthy of a Court Decision, since it has much wider implications. For instance, it means that racial HD don't count towards Leadership. It also means that characters and creatures have a maximum skill rank of 3+class levels, and racial HD don't count:Regardless of whether a skill is purchased as a class skill or a cross-class skill, if it is a class skill for any of your classes, your maximum rank equals your total character level +3.Feats based on racial HD also go out the window:Feats are gained according to character level, not individual class level.I could probably go on, but since this interpretation is so obviously dischordant with the rules (otherwise, no monster in the MM would have any feats, or any skills with more than 3 ranks), I think you should take a second look. Or I could make your life easier and just nab a quote from the FAQ: Character Level: The total number of class levels you have in all your classes, plus any racial Hit Dice you have. A human 5th-level fighter/5th-level wizard has 10 character levels. An ogre 5th-level fighter/5th-level wizard has 14 character levels (because it has 4 racial Hit Dice). Character levels determine when you gain feats and ability score increases (see Table 3–2: Experience and Level-Dependent Benefits in the Player’s Handbook). Any feat you get by virtue of your character level is in addition to any bonus feats from your class levels.
Erithmu 07-09-06, 01:23 AM	If a Gladiator does not prepare his full allotment of spells for a 3FC and does not have the ability to memorize spells later in the day (divine caster) How should a Pitlord calculate the 1/3 rule regarding spells. a) As if the character has the full allotment b) As if the character has their current allotment Additionally: Wizards are stated that they can spend 15 min to prepare spells to empty slots. So could a Wizard not prepare all their spell slots and then prepare needed spells into empty slots inbetween fights. (would this be for free or done as a free activity?)
MindWandererB 07-09-06, 01:28 AM	And as long as you elders are on the topic, how does it work if a caster deliberately uses a higher-level slot to prepare a lower-level spell? Does it count as being of the lower or higher level for purposes of the 1/3 rule?
NiQil 07-09-06, 01:37 AM	That's... pretty nitpicky. And worthy of a Court Decision, since it has much wider implications. For instance, it means that racial HD don't count towards Leadership. It also means that characters and creatures have a maximum skill rank of 3+class levels, and racial HD don't count:Feats based on racial HD also go out the window:I could probably go on, but since this interpretation is so obviously dischordant with the rules (otherwise, no monster in the MM would have any feats, or any skills with more than 3 ranks), I think you should take a second look. Or I could make your life easier and just nab a quote from the FAQ: Let me be more specific, since that appears to be what you want. Psicrystal have no racial HD. Only by CoCo houserule do we allow psicrystals to advance using their master's HD as their own for this purpose. Racial HD count as character levels, but psicrystal's do not have their own racial HD. If a psicrystal had no master, it would have no hit dice. This is why I have been against allowing psicrystal advancement from the beginning....because I knew eventually someone was going to come up with this scenerio, which by the houserules we have created should be allowed, but by the RAW, should not. I'll wait for other Elder input on this one...but maybe now this scenerio will open some eyes as to why our psicrystal advancement rules are wonky.
MindWandererB 07-09-06, 01:45 AM	Heh, no argument from me there. It seems pretty clear to me that they intended psicrystals to be basically just like familiars, only they changed how you get them and forgot to put all the correct phrasing in, and the result is an unplayable mess without some kind of house rules. My house rule: if the RAW is in any way ambiguous on the subject, I just substitute the appropriate rule from the section on familiars. And I'm part amused, part irritated that in Complete Psionic, they added a ton of errata to the XPH (whatever happened to putting errata in the errata?), and totally missed the massive flaws in psicrystals. I've asked the Sage a few times about them, and it never makes it into the FAQ. Maybe it falls into the same category of "too complicated for us to explain properly" allong with AMF. Or maybe it's just "if we pointed out all the mistakes we made, we'd look too dumb."
NiQil 07-09-06, 01:45 AM	If a Gladiator does not prepare his full allotment of spells for a 3FC and does not have the ability to memorize spells later in the day (divine caster) How should a Pitlord calculate the 1/3 rule regarding spells. a) As if the character has the full allotment b) As if the character has their current allotment I would say A. Calculate as if they did it correctly. This still gives them the ability to cast up to the correct limit of spell levels, but since they don't have enough spells prepared, they will have one or more fights in their cycle where they will not have any spells to cast because they didn't prepare enough. Additionally: Wizards are stated that they can spend 15 min to prepare spells to empty slots. So could a Wizard not prepare all their spell slots and then prepare needed spells into empty slots inbetween fights. (would this be for free or done as a free activity?) By the RAW, this is absolutely acceptable, and would be done for free between fights. However, bear in mind that wizards still need 8 hours of rest in order to do this, so this would not be possible between fights, because not enough time passes (max 6 hours). You are assumed to have rested prior to your cycle starting, so you would have to rest again before this would be possible.
NiQil 07-09-06, 01:48 AM	And as long as you elders are on the topic, how does it work if a caster deliberately uses a higher-level slot to prepare a lower-level spell? Does it count as being of the lower or higher level for purposes of the 1/3 rule? This would count as the spell of the higher level, since that is the slot you are using to cast the spell. As an example, if I were to prepare True Strike in a second level spell slot, then it would count as a second level spell for all purposes related to the 1/3 rule, but would still operate as a 1st level spell when cast.
MindWandererB 07-09-06, 01:49 AM	By the RAW, this is absolutely acceptable, and would be done for free between fights. However, bear in mind that wizards still need 8 hours of rest in order to do this, so this would not be possible between fights, because not enough time passes (max 6 hours). You are assumed to have rested prior to your cycle starting, so you would have to rest again before this would be possible.Actually, the rest is required only to "clear" those spell slots to be filled. You don't need to rest right before actually filling them. See the section on the SRD under "Spell Selection and Preparation."
NiQil 07-09-06, 01:58 AM	Actually, the rest is required only to "clear" those spell slots to be filled. You don't need to rest right before actually filling them. See the section on the SRD under "Spell Selection and Preparation." Rest: To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If her rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time she has to rest in order to clear her mind, and she must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing her spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells. Spell Selection and Preparation: Until she prepares spells from her spellbook, the only spells a wizard has available to cast are the ones that she already had prepared from the previous day and has not yet used. During the study period, she chooses which spells to prepare. If a wizard already has spells prepared (from the previous day) that she has not cast, she can abandon some or all of them to make room for new spells. When preparing spells for the day, a wizard can leave some of these spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes, time and circumstances permitting. During these extra sessions of preparation, the wizard can fill these unused spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime. That sort of preparation requires a mind fresh from rest. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if the wizard prepares more than one-quarter of her spells. In theory, you are correct, however I don't see any character *not starting with their full complement of spells at the beginning of the cycle, unless it was a mistake. If they did not start with their full complement memorized, then yes, they could do this between fights. If they did start with their full complement, then no they could not, since filling a used slot requires rest, as mentioned above.
MindWandererB 07-09-06, 02:35 AM	It might be possible, and even a good strategy. Say a 4th-level wizard, with 3 level 2 spell slots, has prepared See Invisibility and Hideous Laughter, leaving the last slot empty. If she uses both spells in fights 1 and 2, she might, between the second and third, fill the last slot with a See Invisibility, on the chance that her last opponent might go invisible. But if she did not cast the See Invisibility earlier, she might instead choose to fill that last slot with another Hideous Laughter, since she doesn't need two of them. I'd certainly take advantage of this with Aerryl, if divine spells worked like this. Who needs three Barkskins if fight 1 or 2 pits me against a psion or arcanist?
Pittbull 07-09-06, 10:18 AM	I support NiQil in the given topics above and I admit too that our psi-crystal- rules are wonky. The ruling has been made by Luni and Sauro, perhaps we need to discuss it a second time.
SauroGrenom 07-09-06, 07:38 PM	It's clear that HD are not equivalent to character levels in every way. For example a Stone Giant character cannot qualify for Leadership as a feat because he does not have the required class levels even though he does have more than 6HD. Many months ago I asked about a Half Dragon Treant and whether he would qualify for Leadership, and then I was told no. Generally I agree with the idea that class levels are only equivalent to HD in particular ways. The SRD section on "Monsters as Races" has a reasonably well detailed description of how racial HD stack or compare to class levels with respect to skills, feats, ability increases, saves, and so on. Leadership is one of very few feats that require actuall class levels to gain the feat. With regard to PsiCrystal Advancement, there is a common misconception that a psicrystal should be just like a familiar if there is any ambiguity in the rules. This perspective is not well founded in the rules. Psicrystals chould be just like a paladin's special mount or a druid's animal companion or a leadership cohort in those instances where the rules are ambigious. If you look at all the class feature allies, you find that none of them have specific monster manual entries. All of the class allies are simply modified versions of already existing creatures with additional abilites. The psicrystal is different in this and a few other respects. It is the only one that requires a feat to gain (thus more simular to leadership), it has its own MM entry, and the potency of the ally's special abilities are drawn from the total class levels its master has in multiple psionic classes. Each of these is a fundamental characteristic that makes a psicrystal different from any other class ally. Yes there are several aspects of a psicrystal that are simular to other types of class allies, but many are fundamentaly different. In any case my perspective is that a psicrsytal should simply be treated like any other creature except in the specific ways that the rules tell us to do otherwise. Feats, BAB increases and skills advance in a manner determined by the creature's HD and type as is the case with any typical creature listed in the MM. We should do this because there are no rules to tell us to treat this creature different. Such rules exist for all other class allies, and those rules apply in the instances where they are stated. There is no good reason to advance the psicrystal in any way other than how every other MM entry is advanced. Suggesting that a psicrystal should be a familiar when the rules do not say otherwise is identical to saying that all MM races should be treated as human (for base languages, age categories, weight, height and any other unspecified racial trait) unless the rules specificially state otherwise. It's arbitrary, unnecessary and inconsistent with the rules to consider the default characteristics of a psicrystal to be anything other than the default characteristics of every other creature in the MM.
MindWandererB 07-09-06, 07:41 PM	It's clear that HD are not equivalent to character levels in every way. For example a Stone Giant character cannot qualify for Leadership as a feat because he does not have the required class levels even though he does have more than 6HD.Except that he FAQ contradicts this statement directly and explicitly. HD = Character levels != class levels.
SauroGrenom 07-09-06, 10:49 PM	Except that he FAQ contradicts this statement directly and explicitly. HD = Character levels != class levels.Now that I check, you are correct sir. Learn something new every day. This does eliminate the basis for my assertion that racial HD are not necessarily equivalent to character levels. I suppose I could split hairs and claim that since psi-crystals have no LA, that they cannot be played as a race and thus do not have "racial HD". So this clarification by the Sage is not relevant in this case. It's a weak argument, but I'll cling to it for now. I'm inclined to think of a psi-crystal as being a very crippled cohort. The cost to gain the ally is similar, but you get no choice on what type of creature it is or even what stats your ally has. Instead your player can qualify for the feat earlier and you get stuck with a diminutive construct that has little to no offensive capacity and very limited ability to wear or use items. The ally has a few special abilities tied to your levels in psionic classes, and it has saves and skills tied to what you have. So it has a few minor advantages over a typical creature, but the creature is in the end almost worthless as a combatant. Sacrificing a feat to gain this ally is a rather heavy cost considering that many other classes get better allies for free. From a rules perspective I can see nothing right now, except my above short argument about what qualifies as "racial HD", to prevent a psicrystal from taking the Leadership feat. But it is comical to think that a little mostly inanimate lump of stone containing a fragment of a character's personality should be able to attract followers. It's just silly and ridiculous. To combat this I suggest we walk out on the thin ice and split the hair saying that to have "racial HD" that you must be a playable race and thus must have a LA.
Vathelokai 07-10-06, 07:19 AM	Question on Improved Familiar Feat The list in the table above presents only a few possible improved familiars. Almost any creature of the same general size and power as those on the list makes a suitable familiar. Nor is the master’s alignment the only possible categorization. For instance, improved familiars could be assigned by the master’s creature type or subtype, as shown below.Based on this, could it be possible to take imp. familiars that are not from the lists in the feat description? Perhaps a credit cost, a la custom allies, and GM approval? I can understand limiting it, but it would be much fun to come up with wacky familairs, especially for higher level characters taking the feat (note that psuedo dragons and homunculi are allowed for 7th lv casters; why not something more grandious for the 9th and 12th lv casters?).
Abyssal Stalker 07-11-06, 01:01 AM	I've been creating a list of creatures that could qualify for improved familiar. I have used the guidelines of the lists in the SRD, but haven't done it ready yet. I was thinking to bring it to the council, but my time has been quite limited recently. The description of the feat says that other creatures are allowed, so IMO it shouldn't cost credits. We just need a list with the creatures and caster levels needed. The list is quite difficult to make because I haven't yet discovered the pattern in the SRD. So the list should be done with careful consideration.
Iced 07-18-06, 01:39 AM	If you're holding the charge for a touch spell would you be able to discharge it with a successful natural attack? Also, if said touch spell had multiple charges per casting and i designated my familiar as the toucher would the familiar get to use all charges from the spell or would i have to re-charge them each time?
MindWandererB 07-18-06, 02:44 AM	If you're holding the charge for a touch spell would you be able to discharge it with a successful natural attack?Definitely. This one is something WotC has come down on in a few publications, although I don't know off hand if it's in any public material. Also, if said touch spell had multiple charges per casting and i designated my familiar as the toucher would the familiar get to use all charges from the spell or would i have to re-charge them each time?The way the ability is phrased, if you choose your familiar as the "toucher," then they are the toucher for all purposes ("The familiar can then deliver the touch spell just as the master could"), including multiple touches, if applicable. But the spell still ends if you cast another spell before it's completely discharged.
Iced 07-18-06, 01:14 PM	Spectacular! Transmutation + Necromancy is now a much better plan at high levels and I think I've just selected prohibited schools for Red Wizard. Thanks MWB! ~Iced
TheMagister 07-18-06, 03:02 PM	Pretty Please: I would like some examples on how we can use Bolas in the CoCo. Sdentch just took EWP (bola) and will be questing soon. Ranged Weapons Bolas 5 gp 1d33 1d43 x2 10 ft. 2 lb. Bludgeoning Bolas: You can use this weapon to make a ranged trip attack against an opponent. You can’t be tripped during your own trip attempt when using a set of bolas. Would Improved Trip apply to bola attacks (I can't see why not, but it's worth asking)? This would be a ranged touch attack, right? How does a character free himself of a bola that successfully tripped him? Cut himself out as a full round action (like a net)? Do the bolas just magically disappear and allow him to stand up? Should hardness/hitpoint values be assigned for bolas so that a player could sunder the bonds and get free that way? Do large sized bolas get a bonus on the strength check (and small sized ones a corresponding penalty), or is the check based on the size of the character that threw them? Does readying an action to trip someone with a bola count as readying an action to avoid an attack (a fine line, for some pitlords)? I'd also like some examples of an enlarged character throwing bolas (so the bolas change size as they leave the throwers square) at a target. Thanks for the help! TM
MindWandererB 07-18-06, 03:35 PM	Pretty Please: I would like some examples on how we can use Bolas in the CoCo. Sdentch just took EWP (bola) and will be questing soon. Ranged Weapons Bolas 5 gp 1d33 1d43 x2 10 ft. 2 lb. Bludgeoning Bolas: You can use this weapon to make a ranged trip attack against an opponent. You can’t be tripped during your own trip attempt when using a set of bolas. Would Improved Trip apply to bola attacks (I can't see why not, but it's worth asking)? This would be a ranged touch attack, right? How does a character free himself of a bola that successfully tripped him? Cut himself out as a full round action (like a net)? Do the bolas just magically disappear and allow him to stand up? Should hardness/hitpoint values be assigned for bolas so that a player could sunder the bonds and get free that way? Do large sized bolas get a bonus on the strength check (and small sized ones a corresponding penalty), or is the check based on the size of the character that threw them? Does readying an action to trip someone with a bola count as readying an action to avoid an attack (a fine line, for some pitlords)? I'd also like some examples of an enlarged character throwing bolas (so the bolas change size as they leave the throwers square) at a target. Thanks for the help! TMWell, some of your questions have easy answers. I'll handle those. Some of them I'll express some opinions on, but they'll require an elder ruling. The bolas are not like a net. They don't trap, they don't entangle, they just trip. So yes, they "magically disappear" after the attack. Meh. Yes, it's a ranged touch attack. Improved Trip would apply partially. You'd get a +4 bonus to your Str check, certainly. But you wouldn't get the follow-up attack, because for that part, it specifically says "if you trip an opponent in melee combat...." Now for the hard ones: The language for Trip suggests that it's the size of the attacker, not the weapon, that affects the check modifier (note that unlike most special attacks, there's no bonus for a 2-handed weapon, and no penalty for a light one). On the other hand, it seems ridiculous that the bola attack would still count as Large even though it shrank from leaving you. I think a literal reading of the rules would say that the size bonus/penalty is based on the size of the attacker, not of the weapon, even if it changes size. I would rule differently in my home game if it came up, but this would be my by-the-book reading. As for the readying thing... obviously, there's no RAW answer because the rule is one of our house rules. But the way it's been ruled in the past is that you can't ready to avoid an attack, but you can ready to prevent it. Things that have been allowed in the past: readying to trip someone who's charging you; readying to cast Silence or Blindness on someone casting a spell on you; readying to disarm a scroll someone's trying to cast from; and, of course, readying to attack someone (which could potentially kill them and thus prevent their action). So readying to throw a bola at an archer, who would then be unable to finish the attack, would be perfectly legit, by my understanding. Both of these last two items, as I said, need elder verification, but that's the way I see them. The other items seem pretty clear-cut, to me.
TelinArtho 07-18-06, 03:43 PM	Pretty Please: I would like some examples on how we can use Bolas in the CoCo. Sdentch just took EWP (bola) and will be questing soon. Ranged Weapons Bolas 5 gp 1d3 1d4 x2 10 ft. 2 lb. Bludgeoning Bolas: You can use this weapon to make a ranged trip attack against an opponent. You can’t be tripped during your own trip attempt when using a set of bolas. Would Improved Trip apply to bola attacks (I can't see why not, but it's worth asking)? Yes - though, as it says - you wouldn't get a follow up attack because you are not in melee. This would be a ranged touch attack, right? Correct. How does a character free himself of a bola that successfully tripped him? Cut himself out as a full round action (like a net)? Do the bolas just magically disappear and allow him to stand up? Should hardness/hitpoint values be assigned for bolas so that a player could sunder the bonds and get free that way? Bolas used in this concept are just effective for tripping and pretty much are not a lasting effect. Therefore, since it doesn't mention any special condition after being tripped, you just spend the move action to stand pretty much. As to the hardness - it would be a rope that extends between the two bulbs, so 0 hardness, 2 hp and 23 break DC - if you wanted to destroy it to prevent it to be used against you again. Do large sized bolas get a bonus on the strength check (and small sized ones a corresponding penalty), or is the check based on the size of the character that threw them? The strength check is based on both I would assume. Much like you don't get reach from a reach weapon built for a smaller size than you, I would say you don't get the added strength check for being large when using a medium bola. Admitedly, this is my opinion though. However, a medium size thrower using a large bola doesn't get an added bonus. Does readying an action to trip someone with a bola count as readying an action to avoid an attack (a fine line, for some pitlords)? Nope - it would be a valid action to ready to throw a bola on someone coming within x feet of you. If his action to bring him within that range is a charge - and your trip succeeds - his action is used up. I'd also like some examples of an enlarged character throwing bolas (so the bolas change size as they leave the throwers square) at a target. Since when things leave your possession, they become normal size, the enlarged bolas would be treated as medium size ones when they are thrown. (assuming you were medium to start with of course). Assuming my opinion is correct above, then you could have some large bolas on the ground when you enlarge - so that you can throw them and gain the bonus to tripping for size. Note - the above is how I would adjudicate in my own games. I may not be completely in line with what would be in the rules.
Stormwind 07-19-06, 06:03 AM	I am currently building a shadow character. However there are a couple of questions that have arisen. 1) if a shadow kills a humanoid opponent with strength damage, then they may use their create spawn special ability to gain a shadow under their control. How does this work in regards to the CoCo and the 3FC? Does the character gain the shadow spawn for the remainder of the fight, for the remainder of the 3FC, or permanently? 2) Although a shadow is incorporeal, it is not ethereal. Thus how do the house rules on equipment (here) apply to a shadow character? Can they use ethereal equipment? Can they use any equipment (apart from manuals and tomes)? Note that this post is cross-posted in the Tavern thread.
Traevanon 07-19-06, 07:33 AM	Regarding a Shadow's Create Spawn ability: I would like to offer an opinion on how it should work while we wait to hear from an elder.You can resurrect someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed.I would suggest that the at the end of the fight NPC officials running the arena combats destroy anyone turned into a shadow without going through the usual channels (credits, quest) so that the Nimbus can ressurect them. I would like to add to your question: What happens when an Ally is turned into a shadow?
Book5 07-19-06, 02:18 PM	I am currently building a shadow character. However there are a couple of questions that have arisen. 2) Although a shadow is incorporeal, it is not ethereal. Thus how do the house rules on equipment (here) apply to a shadow character? Can they use ethereal equipment? Can they use any equipment (apart from manuals and tomes)? Note that this post is cross-posted in the Tavern thread. Shadows have "Strength 0" Strength 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He lies helpless on the ground. For shadows that reads "float ephemerially and point" no equipment at all!
hogarth 07-19-06, 02:49 PM	Shadows have "Strength 0" Strength 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He lies helpless on the ground. For shadows that reads "float ephemerially and point" no equipment at all! Strength -- (no Str score) is not the same as Str 0 (a Str score of zero). Ditto for Constitution.
Book5 07-19-06, 03:02 PM	Strength -- (no Str score) is not the same as Str 0 (a Str score of zero). Ditto for Constitution. pardon me, A creature with no Strength score can’t exert force, usually because it has no physical body or because it doesn’t move. The creature automatically fails Strength checks. Read "Automatically fails to hold / carry things" cannot use pysical items. In this case it has no actualy body - and thusly cannot use any items that require a body to be used - no tools, no clothes, weapons, armor, crowns, etc. No Equipment or Items At All! It can be touched by ghost touch weapons (stopped by ghost touch armor) but it cannot manipulate anything with weight, even ghost touch. Equipment maximum = Null. If you were a roper you could get something put on top of you - but you could not "carry" it. Shadows - are just themselves - no equipment at all, nada, zilch, 0.
hogarth 07-19-06, 03:16 PM	Shadows - are just themselves - no equipment at all, nada, zilch, 0. I would agree, except there's a CoCo house rule for ghosts: Equipment: Since a ghost is incorpor[e]al, he cannot touch and use material items normally. Ethereal items, however, are much more difficult to obtain so a special rule had to be created: As a Free Activity, a ghost can buy ethereal items of up to 1000 gold marketprice. As a Full Activity, he can buy ethereal items of up to 7000 gold marketprice per week. Alternatively, the ghost can quest for ethereal items by setting the item as questgoal but it must be a 3-week Quest and the rewards must cover the marketprice in gold. That solves the problem for ghosts (sort of, although it says nothing about how much ethereal equipment a ghost can carry). I think Stormwind is asking if there's a similar house rule which applies for shadows (even though they aren't ethereal). At any rate, it seems clear that a shadow (or any other incorporeal creature) can use a Ghost Touch sword: The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time, whichever is more beneficial to the wielder. So the question is: how much "ghost touch" weight can an incorporeal creature "lift"? (In his "Rules of the Game" series, Skip Williams suggested either (a) saying all "ghost touch" stuff is weightless, or (b) using Charisma instead of Strength for incorporeal carrying capacity. See http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041005a) By the way, I don't see a Level Adjustment listed for the Shadow in the SRD. Is there one listed in the Monster Manual?
Zevox 07-19-06, 03:43 PM	By the way, I don't see a Level Adjustment listed for the Shadow in the SRD. Is there one listed in the Monster Manual? Nope, we stole that out of Libris Mortis. Cat held a little discussion about taking some LAs for a few core undead out of there to make them playable here (originally an idea to make Turn/Rebuke Undead more useful around here), and since most seemed okay with that he went ahead and did so. Ergo we have Shadows, Ghouls, Vampire Spawn, etc playable here despite thier LAs not being in the core books. Zevox
Pittbull 07-19-06, 04:20 PM	Since it is just an incorporal undead and not an etheral being, I see no way for equipment like ghosts. To proove this, Shadows have no treasure. EDIT: As Book5 said, ghost-touch-stuff might be the exception.
hogarth 07-19-06, 04:25 PM	Since it is just an incorporal undead and not an etheral being, I see no way for equipment like ghosts. Ghost Touch weapons and armor should be O.K. since the descriptions refer to incorporeal creatures (not just ethereal ones). A Manual of Quickness at Action might be O.K., too (if you can get someone else to turn the pages for you ;)).
SauroGrenom 07-19-06, 04:40 PM	The best clarifications I can find with respect to incorpreality and equipment are about attacking (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040928a) and ghost touch armor (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041005a). Aside from ghost touch equipment, options are rather limited. Ioun Stones can be used but not taken inside of solid objects. You can recruite allies that can use equipment as normal. You can use tombs and manuals. You can use a small handfull of items that do not require that you hold them to use them. A bowl of summoning water elementals is an example of such an item. The options are limited, but there is still some room for various items. For example a ghost touch weapon can gain a number of various usefull effects added to it such as parrying. With a ghost touch weapon and ghost touch armor and ghost touch shield, you can stack quite a few bonuses together. That's all core. If you want other magical enhancements, then you need to be able to cast the spells yourself or have an ally who does. It's also a good idea to be a sorcerer and take Shield as a spell. Nothing better to defeat Magic Missiles. Also that spell has no material or focus components. I made a concept character who was maxed out in Cha and it was a Phrenic Allip. I recall the Allip is generally a better incorpreal creature than the Shadow. There is a LA a bit higher, but it does cause wisdom damage and have a higher Cha modifier.
hogarth 07-19-06, 04:55 PM	Aside from ghost touch equipment, options are rather limited. Ioun Stones can be used but not taken inside of solid objects[..]. I was going to suggest Ioun Stones as a possibility for an incorporeal character, but I looked at the description: When a character first acquires a stone, she must hold it and then release it, whereupon it takes up a circling orbit 1d3 feet from her head. That part of the description seems to suggest that you need to be able to touch an Ioun Stone in order to use it.
SoulLord 07-19-06, 05:42 PM	how about having gauntlets of ghost touch so you could later hold and then release such stones. *despises incorporeal complications*
TheMagister 07-21-06, 06:47 AM	Since when things leave your possession, they become normal size, the enlarged bolas would be treated as medium size ones when they are thrown. (assuming you were medium to start with of course). Assuming my opinion is correct above, then you could have some large bolas on the ground when you enlarge - so that you can throw them and gain the bonus to tripping for size. Note - the above is how I would adjudicate in my own games. I may not be completely in line with what would be in the rules. Sorry I dropped this. So, Telin; since you're the one I'll most likely be working with on this issue: What sort of action would you assign to Sdentch if she quickdrew a large bola while enlarged (making the bola huge for the nonce) and then "tossed" it from hand to hand so that it could regain its normal large size before being thrown? TM
hogarth 07-21-06, 06:52 AM	how about having gauntlets of ghost touch so you could later hold and then release such stones. *despises incorporeal complications* It wouldn't work (in my opinion); since you don't have a Str score, you can't lift anything (ghost touch gauntlets or not). It's hard to have things make logical sense, though -- if you can punch a creature with a ghost touch spiked gauntlet, why couldn't you "punch" an ioun stone into the air? :confused:
TheMagister 07-21-06, 06:59 AM	The best clarifications I can find with respect to incorpreality and equipment are about attacking (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040928a) and ghost touch armor (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041005a). Aside from ghost touch equipment, options are rather limited. Ioun Stones can be used but not taken inside of solid objects. You can recruite allies that can use equipment as normal. You can use tombs and manuals. You can use a small handfull of items that do not require that you hold them to use them. A bowl of summoning water elementals is an example of such an item. The options are limited, but there is still some room for various items. For example a ghost touch weapon can gain a number of various usefull effects added to it such as parrying. With a ghost touch weapon and ghost touch armor and ghost touch shield, you can stack quite a few bonuses together. That's all core. If you want other magical enhancements, then you need to be able to cast the spells yourself or have an ally who does. It's also a good idea to be a sorcerer and take Shield as a spell. Nothing better to defeat Magic Missiles. Also that spell has no material or focus components. I made a concept character who was maxed out in Cha and it was a Phrenic Allip. I recall the Allip is generally a better incorpreal creature than the Shadow. There is a LA a bit higher, but it does cause wisdom damage and have a higher Cha modifier. Sir, I would like to point out that ghosts DO have a strength score, but it only applies on the ethereal plane. The magic of a ghost touch weapon allows the ghost to exert/make use of/benefit from its ethereal strength score while on the material plane. A shadow has Str -- no matter where it is. Ghost Touch armor would have the neat effect of forcing a shadow to go through the ground to escape its new "prison". Book 5 is right. A shadow CANNOT exert physical force of any kind anywhere. TM
SauroGrenom 07-21-06, 09:05 AM	Sir, I would like to point out that ghosts DO have a strength score, but it only applies on the ethereal plane. The magic of a ghost touch weapon allows the ghost to exert/make use of/benefit from its ethereal strength score while on the material plane. A shadow has Str -- no matter where it is. Ghost Touch armor would have the neat effect of forcing a shadow to go through the ground to escape its new "prison". Book 5 is right. A shadow CANNOT exert physical force of any kind anywhere. TMThis is not technicially true. While incorpreal you have a srength of STR: -- A shadow has no strength, so it automaticially fails strength checks. But if you read the articles, specificially the article on ghost touch armor, you will discover that ghost touch weapons and armor also becomes weightless when worn by incorpreal creatures. There example is a wraith wearing ghost touch armor. The armor works differently in that it provides no "Armor" bonus to AC. Instead you only get the enhancement bonus as an armor bonus. As an aside for hogarth, the same limitation exists on using ghost touch armor as does Ioun Stones. That is that an incorpreal creature needs to don the armor to use it. So some mechanism must exist so that a creature can get into a state of "using" the item without actually touching it. It is obviously intended in the rules that a wraith could be equipped with ghost touch armor, so I am inclined to allow incorpreal creatures to use Ioun Stones.
hogarth 07-21-06, 09:17 AM	As an aside for hogarth, the same limitation exists on using ghost touch armor as does Ioun Stones. That is that an incorpreal creature needs to don the armor to use it. So some mechanism must exist so that a creature can get into a state of "using" the item without actually touching it. It is obviously intended in the rules that a wraith could be equipped with ghost touch armor, so I am inclined to allow incorpreal creatures to use Ioun Stones. It's not the same situation for ghost touch armor and ioun stones. The description of ghost touch armor has this clause: This armor or shield seems almost translucent. Both its enhancement bonus and its armor bonus count against the attacks of incorporeal creatures. It can be picked up, moved, and worn by incorporeal creatures at any time. which makes it obvious that an incorporeal creature can equip it. There's no such clause for ioun stones. Having said that, if the Elders here would like to rule that incorporeal creatures can use ioun stones, I don't have any problem with that. It just seems that (in my opinion) it goes against the strictest reading of the rules. Just my 2 cents, hogarth (the non-Elder)
TelinArtho 07-21-06, 09:44 AM	Sorry I dropped this. So, Telin; since you're the one I'll most likely be working with on this issue: What sort of action would you assign to Sdentch if she quickdrew a large bola while enlarged (making the bola huge for the nonce) and then "tossed" it from hand to hand so that it could regain its normal large size before being thrown? TM That would probably be equivalent to a move action (as in - you deliberately drop it and pick it back up effectively). I'd make it shorter - but even tossing it back and forth would take more time than a free action - and there's no mid-step... so move action it would be. Although it probably wouldn't come up in this kind of situation - it would provoke, just like with the picking up an item.
TheMagister 07-21-06, 09:50 AM	That would probably be equivalent to a move action (as in - you deliberately drop it and pick it back up effectively). I'd make it shorter - but even tossing it back and forth would take more time than a free action - and there's no mid-step... so move action it would be. Although it probably wouldn't come up in this kind of situation - it would provoke, just like with the picking up an item. That would've been my decision as well. Silly that they just up and disappear, though. Thanks for the quick response!
Stormwind 07-21-06, 10:29 AM	Strength is irrelevant for an incorporeal creature with respect to ghost touch weapons and armor. As I have emphasied in the following quote, any incoporeal creature can use ghost touch equipment. Ghost Touch: This armor or shield seems almost translucent. Both its enhancement bonus and its armor bonus count against the attacks of incorporeal creatures. It can be picked up, moved, and worn by incorporeal creatures at any time. Incorporeal creatures gain the armor or shield’s enhancement bonus against both corporeal and incorporeal attacks, and they can still pass freely through solid objects. Strong transmutation; CL 15th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, etherealness; Price +3 bonus. However the point of my question was to ascertain if the same reasoning that applied to the decision on ghostly (ethereal) equipment, would apply to other incorporeal creatures? The reason that I ask this is that as it stands, I believe that ghosts have an advantage over all other incorporeal creatures that can be played as a character, in that ghosts are not limited to just a couple of pieces of equipment (including ghost touch equipment). As it stands a ghost can use any piece of equipment so long as it is ethereal. Other incorporeal creatures cannot. I believe that this produces a bias with ghosts versus all other incorporeal creatures and thus am posing this question to determine if others agree with my perspective and thus whether the rules should pertain only to ghosts, or to all incorporeal creatures.
SauroGrenom 07-21-06, 11:19 AM	The reason that I ask this is that as it stands, I believe that ghosts have an advantage over all other incorporeal creatures that can be played as a character, in that ghosts are not limited to just a couple of pieces of equipment (including ghost touch equipment). As it stands a ghost can use any piece of equipment so long as it is ethereal. Other incorporeal creatures cannot. I believe that this produces a bias with ghosts versus all other incorporeal creatures and thus am posing this question to determine if others agree with my perspective and thus whether the rules should pertain only to ghosts, or to all incorporeal creatures. I agree that it is far more difficult to play another incorpreal creature than to play a Ghost. This is how the rules are written. *Shrug* So we must deal with it or invent totally new rules. I'm inclined to simply clarify existing rules or make rules where none exist but not to make new rules in contradiction with RAW. So our clarifications with respect to Ghosts is simply that... only with respect to ghosts (or other extraplanar creatures with a "manifestation" ability that makes them incorpreal material creatures temporarily). Yes due to this fact of the rules, other Incorpreal creatures are almost impossible to play. (BTW, I've compared many incorpreal creatures and the Phrenic Allip (Spell Resistance, Cha boost and manifesting power) is my favorite, aside from that is the Unbodied. To make these characters work, you need to multiclass. I think sorcerer levels are necessary, shield is general protection against all magic missile spells and it is cast without material components. With shield up there are only a few psionic powers that can physicially damage you and bypass the SR. Also fighter levels are probably a good idea as well. With the LA and racial HD on any incorpreal creature you are many caster levels behind and you are not a good caster. So going for a full BAB class with a few supporting levels in a casting class may be the best way to go. It's very hard to make a workable incorpreal build.)
TheMagister 07-21-06, 05:48 PM	Using Ride (or anything, really) for Cover against attacks: Isn't it stated in the DMG that if you use an object for cover (soft or otherwise) and the +4 AC bonus provided by that cover makes the potential hit a miss, the cover becomes the new target of the attack? I'm asking this question in regards to all the riding characters who use their mounts for soft cover against attacks with no negative effects to the mount for using them as body shields. I'd ask the elders to consider adding this rule to the CoCo, just for believability reasons. TM
MindWandererB 07-21-06, 05:52 PM	Using Ride (or anything, really) for Cover against attacks: Isn't it stated in the DMG that if you use an object for cover (soft or otherwise) and the +4 AC bonus provided by that cover makes the potential hit a miss, the cover becomes the new target of the attack? I'm asking this question in regards to all the riding characters who use their mounts for soft cover against attacks with no negative effects to the mount for using them as body shields. I'd ask the elders to consider adding this rule to the CoCo, just for believability reasons. TMThis is actually an old rule (from 3.0), that was deliberately eliminated because it was too complicated. Too many times when the attack would hit the cover--but wait, the attack wasn't good enough to hit the cover--did the attack hit the armor or miss completely--it missed completely, so the attack wasn't blocked by the cover after all.... it was more realistic, but it was a royal pain in the butt. And compare that with shooting into a melee, which is a flat -4 penalty (and could easily be at least as complicated). Thanks but no thanks.
Zelck 07-21-06, 10:27 PM	A few questions: 1) Can you Coup De Gras yourself? Can you force someone to CDG himself with the psionic power Control Body? 2) What happens if a player's ally goes over 50 ft. in the city map? Is the ally removed or does that player lose? If the ally is removed in this way, is it still available for the rest of the FC? 3) A level 10 caster can move an object 100 ft. with the violent thrust mode of Telekinesis. Suppose a level 10 caster tries to violent thrust someone through impeded squares such as the light or heavy undergrowth in the forest map. What happens? Does the victim take damage? Can he move as far as 100 ft.? 4) What happens if two players lose at the same time (for example, two players grappling into the lava or over 50 ft. in the city map)? 5) What are the edges of the temple, forest, city, and plains maps made of?
Vathelokai 07-22-06, 03:52 AM	Can the 'symbol' series of spells be used in the arena? Can they be placed on objects like shields, clothing, picket signs, and carried in?
MindWandererB 07-22-06, 04:22 AM	A few questions: 1) Can you Coup De Gras yourself? Can you force someone to CDG himself with the psionic power Control Body? 2) What happens if a player's ally goes over 50 ft. in the city map? Is the ally removed or does that player lose? If the ally is removed in this way, is it still available for the rest of the FC? 3) A level 10 caster can move an object 100 ft. with the violent thrust mode of Telekinesis. Suppose a level 10 caster tries to violent thrust someone through impeded squares such as the light or heavy undergrowth in the forest map. What happens? Does the victim take damage? Can he move as far as 100 ft.? 4) What happens if two players lose at the same time (for example, two players grappling into the lava or over 50 ft. in the city map)? 5) What are the edges of the temple, forest, city, and plains maps made of? 1) Yes. See the psionic power Death Urge for an example. 2) According to the description of the map, it's an auto-loss, even if involuntary. Using TK to throw someone up might well work. This may result in a rule rewrite if it proves too abusive, though (a save-or-die effect at spell level 5 is reasonable, but not when the spell is as versatile as this one). 3) There's no mention of obstruction, so it ought to be the full move. Damage is only incurred ob striking an unyielding object. 4) Then it's a loss for both players, I think. Same as what happens in a double-forfeiture. 5) The temple edge is made of stone, as the description says. As for the others, there is no official "edge," I don't think. Don't force the pitlord to invent something by trying to TK someone off the map--they'll just change your tactic to a legal one.
Pittbull 07-22-06, 05:33 AM	Can the 'symbol' series of spells be used in the arena? Can they be placed on objects like shields, clothing, picket signs, and carried in? Yes, they can be used. This happened many times in the old COCO-version. Spike used to have a symbol on his shield.
Salrantol 07-22-06, 05:34 AM	What are the rules & restrictions regarding skeletons, zombies, and other corporeal undead without class levels wearing or being proficient with armor? The only SRD example I could find with regard to this was one of the skeleton examples wielding a shield.
MindWandererB 07-22-06, 05:49 AM	What are the rules & restrictions regarding skeletons, zombies, and other corporeal undead without class levels wearing or being proficient with armor? The only SRD example I could find with regard to this was one of the skeleton examples wielding a shield...Undead Type: Undead are once-living creatures animated by spiritual or supernatural forces. ... —Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry. —Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Undead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Undead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.Special Qualities: A zombie loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks. Feats: A zombie loses all feats of the base creature and gains Toughness. (Skeleton is similar.) Since it A) loses all class features and feats of the base creature, B) isn't described as wearing any armor except, in one place, a shield, I think we have to say that they aren't proficient with armor, but that zombies are proficient with shields (the bugbear zombie, the one with the shield, is the only sample zombie that doesn't use a 2-handed weapon, except for the human commoner zombie, so it's reasonable to assume the other could use shields if they wanted to and owned them). I'm not an elder, though, and this one is complex enough that it should probably have an official elder ruling on it.
Zelck 07-22-06, 01:02 PM	1) Yes. See the psionic power Death Urge for an example. Urr... Death Urge does NOT mention anything about a coup de gras :P. It mentions a full attack or jumping off cliffs. I think that's to keep it from being too strong. Still, I remember various sources saying a suicide would be an auto-CDG, and wondered if we'll be using that rule. 2) According to the description of the map, it's an auto-loss, even if involuntary. Using TK to throw someone up might well work. This may result in a rule rewrite if it proves too abusive, though (a save-or-die effect at spell level 5 is reasonable, but not when the spell is as versatile as this one). What I meant with that question was what happens if a player's ally went up too high. For instance, say Bob brings a gryphon into the arena as an ally (doesn't ride it), and Bill dominates the gryphon and sends it up 55 ft. What happens?
MindWandererB 07-22-06, 03:26 PM	Urr... Death Urge does NOT mention anything about a coup de gras :P. It mentions a full attack or jumping off cliffs. I think that's to keep it from being too strong. Still, I remember various sources saying a suicide would be an auto-CDG, and wondered if we'll be using that rule.You're right; I remembered the power wrong. And in that case, it looks like you can auto-crit yourself, but can't CdG yourself. What I meant with that question was what happens if a player's ally went up too high. For instance, say Bob brings a gryphon into the arena as an ally (doesn't ride it), and Bill dominates the gryphon and sends it up 55 ft. What happens?You're right again, I misread the question. Here's the rule: "Any characters who ascends higher than 50ft will be spotted by the city watch who instantly sends epic wizards to take the perpetrator hostage." So they are removed from the fight instantly.
hogarth 07-25-06, 01:49 PM	Would it be possible to add "Dust of Sneezing and Choking" to the short list of banned items? It's a lot more powerful than its cost suggests (since it causes 5-20 rounds of stunning with no saving throw).
TelinArtho 07-25-06, 02:00 PM	Would it be possible to add "Dust of Sneezing and Choking" to the short list of banned items? It's a lot more powerful than its cost suggests (since it causes 5-20 rounds of stunning with no saving throw). I wouldn't worry about it too much. First of all - it affects a 20ft radius and I think that is centered on you - so unless you don't need to breathe - it will be a problem. Regardless of that - it is a 2400gp one-use item - which in order to even break-even in a fight would be the ECL7 league with a win.
hogarth 07-25-06, 02:21 PM	I wouldn't worry about it too much. First of all - it affects a 20ft radius and I think that is centered on you - so unless you don't need to breathe - it will be a problem. Regardless of that - it is a 2400gp one-use item - which in order to even break-even in a fight would be the ECL7 league with a win. It would be centered on whoever uses it (which could be a skeleton, astral construct, or just an ally you don't like very much). If it hasn't been a problem so far, then I guess I'll have to exploit that in a future match. :) (Note that a level 5 druid can make his own at level 5 for 1,200 gp.) Cheers, hogarth
TelinArtho 07-25-06, 02:23 PM	It would be centered on whoever uses it (which could be a skeleton, astral construct, or just an ally you don't like very much). If it hasn't been a problem so far, then I guess I'll have to exploit that in the future. :) Cheers, hogarth Well, like I said, the price is the real limiting factor. At ECL7, you'd be netting +200 per use IF you won each fight. I suppose you could craft it to make it a net profit of +1400 per use IF you won each fight, but it still is a little much.
SauroGrenom 07-25-06, 04:21 PM	It would be centered on whoever uses it (which could be a skeleton, astral construct, or just an ally you don't like very much). If it hasn't been a problem so far, then I guess I'll have to exploit that in a future match. :) (Note that a level 5 druid can make his own at level 5 for 1,200 gp.) Cheers, hogarthI'm not particularly concerned about the Dust. I've done some calculations comparing the total gp of a new character created at each ECL and the amount of gp you earn on the way up to each ECL. The result is rather surprising. You must "save" about 90% of all the gp rewards you recieve from battles to stay on gp parity with new characters created at each ECL. That means that you need to win at ECL3 to justify drinking two 50gp potions. Profession gp allows a bit more room for money to spend on each battle. Also it is a safety net that can protect you if you expected to win but suffered an expensive loss. But expendables that cost 1200gp each use are going to rapidly lead you into wealth deficit compared to your rivals at each ECL.
Milov 07-28-06, 04:07 PM	My character, Ihdald, is a sea elf, and has the whole "gills" thing. Limited time without suffocation, etc. I know it'll be rare that it'll matter, but still. If I were to, say, buy waterskins or bottles or something filled with water, would I be allowed to have him "breathe" them in as a prefight action to refresh that timer? With All Due Respect, Milov
hogarth 07-28-06, 04:16 PM	My character, Ihdald, is a sea elf, and has the whole "gills" thing. Limited time without suffocation, etc. I know it'll be rare that it'll matter, but still. If I were to, say, buy waterskins or bottles or something filled with water, would I be allowed to have him "breathe" them in as a prefight action to refresh that timer? In my personal opinion, it should be O.K. since you can survive 14 hours out of the water. After all, do human characters have to have a section in their sheet saying: Prebuffs: I breathe oxygen before the fight. I eat when I get hungry. When nature calls, I go behind a bush. ?
Vathelokai 07-28-06, 04:37 PM	My character, Ihdald, is a sea elf, and has the whole "gills" thing. Limited time without suffocation, etc. I know it'll be rare that it'll matter, but still. If I were to, say, buy waterskins or bottles or something filled with water, would I be allowed to have him "breathe" them in as a prefight action to refresh that timer? With All Due Respect, Milov Since there is always an hour between fights, that is plenty of time to go find a bath. So sea elves have no problems with it unless on quest/campaign.
Lune 07-30-06, 09:35 PM	Mkay...so I think I may be interested in this here CoCo thang. But I gots me a problem. I wanna play a Grimlock and they are 1 ECL higher than the starting level. So, it appears I must earn me some credits. I would assume (only because I am still partway through the rules...they are long) that because I have not yet played in the CoCo that I am not allowed to run a fight? I am more than capable of running a few and that should likely gain me enough points. I know I can submit a pic of myself for 2 points. That only requires me to earn 3 more. My wife wanted me to ask how many points I would get for submitting a pic of her in a bikini. While I'm sure she meant it as a joke, I'm also sure that she has no shame and would go through with it. And also...as I'm not sure how the sence of humor is around here I will say that a chick in a biniki is totally pg-13 material. Or, I could be just joking... ...maybe. Seriously though (if I wasn't before), how does a newb go about earning some points aside from the pic. How about a non-bikini pic (http://home.comcast.net/~lune55/DSCF1402.JPG) of my wife? :P
Traevanon 07-30-06, 09:57 PM	I think I can give you 3 of my credits Lune (you know who this is), but since we're here on the Elder Board I may as well phrase it as a question.
Zevox 07-30-06, 10:04 PM	Well, first off, welcome to the CoCo! I do hope you enjoy yourself here. (Side note: this probably should've been asked over in the Tavern thread.) Now, as far as earning credits goes, there are several ways. Obviously you know about submitting a picture for 2 free. You also get 2 on your birthday if you send that to Scribelords - that may or may not help you depending on when that is. The most common way is by running fights. Theres no reason why you wouldn't be allowed to as far as I know - I doubt Cat would turn down someone offering to do that just because they're new ;) (we have had problems with not having quite enough pitlords around here for some time). From those you'd make 1 credit per fight so long as they're on time, and an additional .1 (thats 1/10th of a credit) per map in the fight, up to a maximum of .5 per fight. So if you submitted a picture, ran two fights, and had at least 5 maps in each fight (easily done using Dracazar's CoCo mapper (http://www.hwx.it/coco/index.php), unless of course the fight lasts less than 5 rounds - thats a rare event though), you'd have your 5 credits. If you write a story about a fight you run, you also get an additional credit off of that, or 2 if its good enough that Scribelords adds it to the Tales of Gladius thread. You can also earn .1 credit for each violation you report over in the prison post if you find errors on player's character sheets, so finding errors on 10 different character's sheets nets you 1 credit total. For a full audit (going over every aspect of the character and thier developement in detail to make sure everything checks out) you get 1 credit per 3 levels the character has. You can also run quests or campaigns for a 2 or 3 credits per week respectively, though I'm guessing you won't want to do those so soon after joining (I may be wrong of course, but those require a lot of time and effort to do). Lastly theres board administration, such as being a Guildmaster, Elder, Prisonlords, or other such position. I don't think you'd be assigned such a position until you've been around a while though. Zevox
Zelck 07-30-06, 10:09 PM	Don't you also get a credit if the number of fights you run is greater than the number of gladiators you have active -2, or lose a credit if it's less than that? (I think it's under the Characters of Gladius thread, a bunch of posts down, and nowhere else. It's well-hidden. Is this rule still in effect?)
Lune 07-30-06, 10:21 PM	Traevanon, thanx for the offer, bro. I would prefer to have my victories be by only my doing though. I will not have them tainted by "free points". ;) Is what Zelck said true? If so then after running 2 fights ran I should get 3 credits plus the credits from whatever maps I make. Heck, that plus the pictures of my wife in a bikini should be plenty! :schemes:
Traevanon 07-30-06, 10:30 PM	Running 1 character and Pitlording 1 fight will get you 1 credit (+maps). I'm not sure what running no characters and Pitlording 1 fight gets you.
Zevox 07-30-06, 10:46 PM	Don't you also get a credit if the number of fights you run is greater than the number of gladiators you have active -2, or lose a credit if it's less than that? (I think it's under the Characters of Gladius thread, a bunch of posts down, and nowhere else. It's well-hidden. Is this rule still in effect?) You're thinking of the note by the active pitlords post. Its basically there as a reminder that having more than 2 characters active in the same week costs 1 credit per extra character, so running 1 fight and having 3 characters active will give you a net change of 0 credits. You still earn only 1 credit per fight (or 2 credits per all vs all or team fight), regardless of how many characters you have active. Zevox
TheMagister 07-31-06, 07:47 AM	Plea toward common sense (I know, I know...this is DnD. But work with me, here): In the sewer map, there are a two effects that aren't mentioned (but should be) relating to the environment: 1) Balance checks. A little over 1/2 the map is covered with water in some form or another. A quick read of the "Balance" skill description shows that wet floors should be considered "lightly slippery" and force a balance check (DC mod +2). Since the floors are considered rough terrain, that would mean that anyone that HAS to walk in the water squares should have to make balance checks to cross the water. Large creatures would have a hard time. So would platemail-clad, tower-shield wielding characters with crappy jump checks (even though its a class skill). 2) Scent. "Overpowering odors" render scent useless. I think a sewer should qualify as one entire "overpowering odor". This would be one environment where a scented creature would not (SHOULD not) have this advantage. What do you guys think of this? I'll cross-post in the Tavern thread, and the Council thread. TM
Vathelokai 08-08-06, 05:45 AM	Spontaneous Casting: A good cleric (or a neutral cleric of a good deity) can channel stored spell energy into healing spells that the cleric did not prepare ahead of time. The cleric can “lose” any prepared spell that is not a domain spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower (a cure spell is any spell with “cure” in its name). An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric of an evil deity), can’t convert prepared spells to cure spells but can convert them to inflict spells (an inflict spell is one with “inflict” in its name). This passed the tavern test, so I'm bringing it here... Nowhere does it say that only divine spells can be converted to cure spells. So, Can a mystic thurge (or any multi class cleric) 'loose' arcane spells to convert them to cure spells?
Pittbull 08-08-06, 06:52 AM	You're right, I found nothing against this too, but I think this is absolutely against the intent of this ability. The cleric can “lose” any prepared spell that is not a domain spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower (a cure spell is any spell with “cure” in its name). Why should a mystic theurge be able to convert arcane spells if he is not able to convert domain spells? As a conclusion, I would say it is not allowed to convert arcane spells. But let's wait and hear what the rule-masters say.
Pittbull 08-08-06, 06:56 AM	Plea toward common sense (I know, I know...this is DnD. But work with me, here): In the sewer map, there are a two effects that aren't mentioned (but should be) relating to the environment: 1) Balance checks. A little over 1/2 the map is covered with water in some form or another. A quick read of the "Balance" skill description shows that wet floors should be considered "lightly slippery" and force a balance check (DC mod +2). Since the floors are considered rough terrain, that would mean that anyone that HAS to walk in the water squares should have to make balance checks to cross the water. Large creatures would have a hard time. So would platemail-clad, tower-shield wielding characters with crappy jump checks (even though its a class skill). 2) Scent. "Overpowering odors" render scent useless. I think a sewer should qualify as one entire "overpowering odor". This would be one environment where a scented creature would not (SHOULD not) have this advantage. What do you guys think of this? I'll cross-post in the Tavern thread, and the Council thread. TM (1) I like that one! (2) Nice idea! The other elders should reply too!
Traevanon 08-08-06, 08:03 AM	As I have argued in the other various postings this has gotten broken up into... Easy floor conditions up to DC10 only require balance checks when running or charging. Since the water is already rough terrain, negating running or charges, the point is moot. See note #2 on the Balance table. And Cat has already nixxed it. Balancing is not something to be applied this lightly. It completely makes someone flat- footed even if they make their balance check. Even if they are not a Plate Mail wearing, Tower Shield holding Dwarf. The floor is 10 feet wide... hardly a tightrope. The substance is water not grease. And the final point... Magister seems to feel that even in tip top conditions people are always balancing at DC0, otherwise why would he feel that a DC+2 modifier would force a check? If this was the case everyone would be flat footed all the time., which is obviously not the case. I wish ya hadnt cross-posted this in three different places..........
Pittbull 08-08-06, 08:19 AM	And Cat has already nixxed it. If the GM has made allready a ruling on this, there's no further need to discuss it here.
Stormwind 08-08-06, 05:08 PM	A question regarding the create spawn ability of the Shadow. If I were to want a Shadow spawn as an permanent ally for a Shadow character, would I need to acquire it as per the rules for a class ally, or as per the rules for a diplomacy ally? Since the create spawn ability allows a Shadow to create another Shadow under it's direct control through a racial ability without any need for diplomacy, I would assume that I would acquire it as per the rules for a class ally (i.e. quest for it). Is this correct?
Pittbull 08-08-06, 05:58 PM	Create Spawn (Su) Any humanoid reduced to Strength 0 by a shadow becomes a shadow under the control of its killer within 1d4 rounds. I think a quest should be necessary. Please don't forget that there is still an ECL-Cap, so you can't have an infinitive number of spawns.
hogarth 08-08-06, 06:18 PM	What's the protocol when a pitlord fails to run an arena fight? Do I just have to suck it up and treat my character as if he were inactive for the week, or can I retroactively change it so that he was doing a Full Activity instead?
MindWandererB 08-08-06, 06:42 PM	What's the protocol when a pitlord fails to run an arena fight? Do I just have to suck it up and treat my character as if he were inactive for the week, or can I retroactively change it so that he was doing a Full Activity instead?Do not edit your character sheet. If the Wednesday deadline hits, PM Pitlords with a Full Activity, which you get as compensation. Both the activity and the re-post of the same fight (with a new PL) will be entered in the listings for the new week.
hogarth 08-08-06, 07:11 PM	Do not edit your character sheet. If the Wednesday deadline hits, PM Pitlords with a Full Activity, which you get as compensation. Both the activity and the re-post of the same fight (with a new PL) will be entered in the listings for the new week. Thanks for the quick reply. When is the cut-off time on Wednesday? I'd like to have at least 15 minutes or so to update my sheet before the new pairings are done.
MindWandererB 08-08-06, 07:22 PM	Thanks for the quick reply. When is the cut-off time on Wednesday? I'd like to have at least 15 minutes or so to update my sheet before the new pairings are done.Reminding you again to not even hit that edit button unless the fight has been posted, the deadline is Wednesday 9 PM CET. As near as I can tell, that's 3:00 PM your time (Toronto is EST, right)?
Zelck 08-08-06, 11:37 PM	Are there any ways to get an extension for edits? I recently noticed something in Andurwin's fight that may change its outcome. Unfortunately, if it gets changed, I may not have enough time to get home and edit my char sheet before the edit deadline expires. I have work until 7 PM EST (which is 1 AM CET?), and if I win, I'll level so updating the sheet might take an hour. If the outcome of the fight changes, is there any way I can get an extension for the edit? Alternatively, can I fight the next round as if this week's fight's result was unchanged and edit the changed result in afterwards? EDIT: Looks like the outcome will not change. Still, it would be nice to know if there could ever be an extension granted for edits.
MindWandererB 08-09-06, 01:56 AM	Are there any ways to get an extension for edits? I recently noticed something in Andurwin's fight that may change its outcome. Unfortunately, if it gets changed, I may not have enough time to get home and edit my char sheet before the edit deadline expires. I have work until 7 PM EST (which is 1 AM CET?), and if I win, I'll level so updating the sheet might take an hour. If the outcome of the fight changes, is there any way I can get an extension for the edit? Alternatively, can I fight the next round as if this week's fight's result was unchanged and edit the changed result in afterwards? EDIT: Looks like the outcome will not change. Still, it would be nice to know if there could ever be an extension granted for edits.There is no theoretical statute of limitations on fight changes. People get annoyed if they suddenly lose a level or something two weeks later, and for that reason it isn't commonly done, but it can happen. (I'm still waiting on an edit myself which is about a week overdue now... hint, hint, you know who you are.)
Usurpator 08-10-06, 03:50 AM	Can dragons wield weapons? More specifically weapons designed for humanoids, such as bows? The only (non-core) official source I can quote is the Draconomicon: A dragon's four feet resemble those of a great bird, each has three or four clawed toes facing forward, plus an additional toe, also with claw, set farther back on the foot and facing slightly inward like a human's thumb. Although a dragon's front feet are not truly prehensile, a dragon can grasp small objects with its front feet, provided they are not too small. This grip is not precise enough for tool use, writing, or wielding a weapon, but a dragon can hold and carry objects. A dragon is also capable of wielding magical devices, such as wands. Which indicates to me that dragons cannot. I we do allow dragons to wield weapons, what other monster types will we also allow to wield weapons. All bird types would be able to use bows, since they seem to have (from the description above) the same type of claws.
Pittbull 08-10-06, 04:14 AM	Sorry, I have no clue about this. But the non-core source your quoted, shows that dragon cannot use bows, they might use clubs, axes or even x-bows.
Vathelokai 08-10-06, 04:14 AM	If we do allow dragons to wield weapons, what other monster types will we also allow to wield weapons? All bird types would be able to use bows, since they seem to have (from the description above) the same type of claws.My dragon's been carrying around a custom made greataxe for a while now and no-one has mentioned it before. I see your point, but I think making an exception for dragons is no big deal.
Usurpator 08-10-06, 05:12 AM	My dragon's been carrying around a custom made greataxe for a while now and no-one has mentioned it before. I see your point, but I think making an exception for dragons is no big deal. I think it is a big deal. Just look at the difference between a Zero build with weapons and without. If he is not able to use a bow, MindWandererB would probably not even have made the character. An exception to a rule is not trivial when it decides if a certain build is or is not feasiblein the arena. I have lots of nice alternate race builds thought up, but they often come up against the fact that those creatures cannot hold weapons or have the manual dexterity to use somatic components. If an exception is made for dragons, I want an exception made for my Worg build as well, or example. Besides, included in the ECL bonus of dragons is the fact that they *cannot* use weapons and similar items like humanoids. It's an inherent racial disadvantage. You just cannot wave that away as 'no big deal'. We are trying to optimize builds around the core rules here, and cannot ignore things that are disadvantagous to our builds. Additionally, ideally exceptions should be asked for in advance.
NiQil 08-10-06, 08:05 AM	I think it is a big deal. Just look at the difference between a Zero build with weapons and without. If he is not able to use a bow, MindWandererB would probably not even have made the character. An exception to a rule is not trivial when it decides if a certain build is or is not feasiblein the arena. I have lots of nice alternate race builds thought up, but they often come up against the fact that those creatures cannot hold weapons or have the manual dexterity to use somatic components. If an exception is made for dragons, I want an exception made for my Worg build as well, or example. Besides, included in the ECL bonus of dragons is the fact that they *cannot* use weapons and similar items like humanoids. It's an inherent racial disadvantage. You just cannot wave that away as 'no big deal'. We are trying to optimize builds around the core rules here, and cannot ignore things that are disadvantagous to our builds. Additionally, ideally exceptions should be asked for in advance. Here is the answer to your question, and it is core. Take a look at the Dragon type listing: Dragon Type: A dragon is a reptilelike creature, usually winged, with magical or unusual abilities. Features: A dragon has the following features. —12-sided Hit Dice. —Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter). —Good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves. —Skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. Traits: A dragon possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in the description of a particular kind). —Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. —Immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects. —Proficient with its natural weapons only unless humanoid in form (or capable of assuming humanoid form), in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry. —Proficient with no armor. —Dragons eat, sleep, and breathe. Let that be your guide. By my reading, if not in humanoid form, dragons are only proficient with their natural weapons. As to your secondary question about gloves preventing claw attacks, I am unaware of any rule that would prevent claw attacks being made with gloves on. I can understand your real-world sentiment for wanting that to not work, but nothing in the RAW prohibits it (which it would be if it was). The Dragon Disciple prestige class gains claws...are you saying that when it does so, it should lose the ability to wear magical gloves?
Traevanon 08-10-06, 08:26 AM	—Proficient with its natural weapons only unless humanoid in form (or capable of assuming humanoid form), in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry. —Proficient with no armor. I am unclear as to your position. Proficiency and ability to use something are not the same. Should a dragon gain proficiency in armor or weapons later in its career through a class feature or feat, would you feel that they are able to use that proficiency in dragon form? Same question for the Worg? Same question for a Giant? Finally, how are you determining the difference?
Caterane 08-10-06, 01:18 PM	The problem is that WotC doesn't distinguish between Claws and Claws. Like Lion Claws and Half-Fiend Claws. I think that's because 'claw' isn't the issue here. From my example it becomes clear that it doesn't depend on the claw but where the claw is attached to, wether it's a lion's paw or a half-fiends hand with digits and long fingernails. That also means we cannot make a uniform rule to allow or disallow *all* claws to wield weapons. So we have to decide on a case to case basis. A lion and a half-fiend are clear. Dragons have this entry in the Draconomicon and although we're core only, we're not oblivious to what clarifications WotC writes in an official souce just because it didn't fit into the core books. Were it for that alone, I'd say no weapons. (Un)fortunately, we also have the fact that dragons can cast spells with their clumsy claws. Okay, now the next question is 'how complicated are the finger patterns for casting a spell'. This all goes way too far into the metaphysical fantasy sector where real-life logic fails. I'd say we hold an Elder vote.
Abyssal Stalker 08-10-06, 03:09 PM	I remember reading somewhere that almost every creature can cast spells with somatic components, whether it has a humanoid bodybuild or not. I'll dig into it and post what I find.
MindWandererB 08-10-06, 03:40 PM	I remember reading somewhere that almost every creature can cast spells with somatic components, whether it has a humanoid bodybuild or not. I'll dig into it and post what I find.Here's what you're referring to: Spells: Sometimes a creature can cast arcane or divine spells just as a member of a spellcasting class can (and can activate magic items accordingly). Such creatures are subject to the same spellcasting rules that characters are, except as follows. A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body. Such a creature also does need material components for its spells. The creature can cast the spell by either touching the required component (but not if the component is in another creature’s possession) or having the required component on its person. Sometimes spellcasting creatures utilize the Eschew Materials feat to avoid fussing with noncostly components.So if dragons (and many other monsters) are not considered to have "hands or arms," then they use their bodies to perform somatic components. It's a reasonable conclusion, IMO. Also, let me say for the record: I really wouldn't mind at all if Zero were declared illegal. He's been more trouble than I'd anticipated, and considerably less effective, mostly due to the fact that I don't have direct control over his movement.
Abyssal Stalker 08-10-06, 03:51 PM	That was it, I knew I had read it somewhere. I thought that it was a rules of the game article. Thanks, MWB!
Usurpator 08-10-06, 04:51 PM	As to your secondary question about gloves preventing claw attacks, I am unaware of any rule that would prevent claw attacks being made with gloves on. I can understand your real-world sentiment for wanting that to not work, but nothing in the RAW prohibits it (which it would be if it was). The Dragon Disciple prestige class gains claws...are you saying that when it does so, it should lose the ability to wear magical gloves? It makes very good sense that if you start to wear gauntlets or gloves, your claw attack gets less effective or does'nt work anymore. It makes so much sense that it doesn't need a rule, like many aspects of the game For example: it is not in the RAW that swords do less damage when you wield them while they are still in the scabbard, but they don't have to tell me that, it is obvious, it doesn't need a rule. If a Slaad that injects egg pellets through its claws wears iron gauntlets of ogre power, I sure wouldn't let him use that claw attack and special ability. If someone with a bite attack wears a closed helmet, he cannot use his bite attack if I am DM, even though the rules don't specify you lose your bite attack if you wear a full closed helmet. Lack of a rule that forbids or allows never doesn't mean you can do something, nor does it mean you cannot do something, it simply means you have to use common sense.
Usurpator 08-10-06, 04:56 PM	I remember reading somewhere that almost every creature can cast spells with somatic components, whether it has a humanoid bodybuild or not. I'll dig into it and post what I find. IMO the quote from MindWandererB is only true for creatures that have those abilities as a racial feature (Naga's are my famous example for this). The paragraph from the Draconomicon I quoted continues by saying that the dragons perform their somatic components with their front claws. I would love to have a Worg Cleric character, but I think the core rules don't allow it to cast spells with somatic components. Currently I made the build as a Psychic Warrior, which doesn't pose any problem.
MindWandererB 08-10-06, 05:08 PM	It makes very good sense that if you start to wear gauntlets or gloves, your claw attack gets less effective or does'nt work anymore. It makes so much sense that it doesn't need a rule, like many aspects of the game....There's also nothing that says that gloves must take the same form for everyone. Open-fingered gloves that allow the claws to stick through should be perfectly legal.
Usurpator 08-10-06, 05:32 PM	There's also nothing that says that gloves must take the same form for everyone. Open-fingered gloves that allow the claws to stick through should be perfectly legal. Possibly. Open-fingered gauntlets would be a bit much for me though. Personally, I like to err on the side of caution with my builds. Regularly I come across things that might be possible within the rules, but have me saying 'nah, that would be too much'... In the cases I really like to use it, I like to ask about it in advance. Sometimes this gets me into a lot of trouble (like asking if Nexa could ride her Dire Bat without checks even when not trained for combat riding). In the case of gloves of dexterity for Tezca, I want to solve it by buying a custom item in blackmarket for the hands slot that works exactly like gloves of dex but never leaves a question about hindering him in any way in whatever shape he might be at the time.
McJarvis 08-11-06, 02:12 AM	Can Gather Information checks be used to ignore credit costs of NPC spell casting services above normal levels? If not, what if the spellcasting service produces an "item" with semi-permanent or permanent duration?((such as deeper-darkness and continual flame on a specific item?))
TelinArtho 08-11-06, 02:27 PM	Seems we have two contradictory discussions here. Last time it came up when I was around, it was pointed out that while Prot. Evil specifically says that "good creatures are immune" to the warding (i.e. meaning all non-good are kept out), the other three simply say that they keep thier respective alignment out, nothing more, and no one argued that any further. This was a few months back, during the time you were absent - it'd take some digging to find it, but I suppose I could. Zevox Well, my discussion was admittedly short when I brought it up back in August of last year (3 posts...): [Post 2212] Author : TelinArtho Date : 08-23-05 12:40 PM Okay - here's a bit of a problem. Does the protection against summoned creatures for the protection from [alignment] spells protect against all creatures except the opposed alignment, or only against those of the alignment. Here's the relevant text from the SRD: Protection from evil Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. Good summoned creatures are immune to this effect. The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature. Spell resistance can allow a creature to overcome this protection and touch the warded creature. Protection from good This spell functions like protection from evil, except that the deflection and resistance bonuses apply to attacks from good creatures, and good summoned creatures cannot touch the subject Protection from chaos This spell functions like protection from evil, except that the deflection and resistance bonuses apply to attacks from chaotic creatures, and chaotic summoned creatures cannot touch the subject. Emphasis mine. This would affect the fight I have this week, but also, since I have a lot of summoners, this is a major difference. Bear in mind, I am fine with it either way - I just want to know precisely which one it is. /d -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2213] Author : Gonbow Date : 08-23-05 12:43 PM Pro: Blah Each protection spell has the alignment opposite that it is protecting from; Thus, Pro: Law is a Chaotic spell and chaotic extraplaner/summoned creatures are not affected by it. Neutral, Good and Lawful summoned creatures would be hedged out by it, however. Thus, good creatures can go through pro-evil, etc, etc. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2214] Author : TelinArtho Date : 08-23-05 12:58 PM That's what I thought, but the non-protection from evil spells had a different reading to it. Regardless - it looks fine. Anyway, onto my next question. If a summoned creature (with SR) goes up to a guy with Prot. from blah - would the creature get a single chance to break the barrier (one SR check) or would it be several (over several attacks)? /d Apparently there's been another discussion about this taking a much more literal reading of the protection from alignment spells. I would ask that the protection spells be used uniformly - either all of the protect against only the alignment chosen (so prot. from evil would protect against evil only) or all would protect against all except the alignment of the spell (so prot. from good would protect against all non-evil summons).
Book5 08-11-06, 10:15 PM	Possibly. Open-fingered gauntlets would be a bit much for me though. . In the case of gloves of dexterity for Tezca, I want to solve it by buying a custom item in blackmarket for the hands slot that works exactly like gloves of dex but never leaves a question about hindering him in any way in whatever shape he might be at the time. Are you kidding me? :cool: Cat himself has weapons that are "treat as" - I specifically remember a conversation about "lung implants" that managed to stay out of the balck market. When you build armor you build it to size, when you build guantlets for dragons you build it like barding - the "hoofs ... er Claws" are exposed. If there is an implant power - the sucker has an opening, no biggie - not in gladius where there are representatives of nearly every known terrestrial and extra terrestrial culture ever heard of. I misread telin at first - I agree, the spells should be run the same - and I think it is obvious that the spell should protect vs the alignment in subject - not "everyone but caster's alignment" or what have you. @Mcjarvis - No. Not by my reading. Take a look at krynn literature - there is a thouroughly described difference between the magic of the dragons and the magic of the men. Dragon magic is sorceric - even more so it is particular - if you then proceed to the draconimicon.. you see this concept throughout - the spells are keyed to the dragon blood - because that blood is the only necessarry component. This of course applies only to the spells granted to the dragons. Half dragons would gain no such benifit - however the half dragon entry adds claws.. it says nothing about taking away the hoofs or hands that you start with. So no worries there. :P
MindWandererB 08-11-06, 10:24 PM	Since the Prot. Evil vs. Prot. Everything Else debate has apparently now made it into this thread, here's my take: I agree that the spells should be parallel. It makes no sense that they aren't. However... they aren't. There is no wiggle room in the way the spells are phrased; Prot. Evil clearly wards all nongood summoned creatures, and Prot. Good/Law/Chaos clearly ward only summoned creatures of their respective alignments. Was this intentional? We have no way of knowing, and we can debate back and forth all we like. But intentional or not, that's the way it is. We're not here to second-guess the developers, we're here to follow the rules. And the rules in this case are very clear.
Erithmu 08-11-06, 10:53 PM	As has begun to start being discussed within the Aug 9th FotW thread: the Specific question is does a tanglefoot bag that hits an invisible gladiator make the gladiator visible. If yes: then are there other substances that can do the same thing, I vaguely remember a conversation about bags of flour, but i did not find anything in the court decisions. Is there still some miss chance as they are not fully visible. This is getting very much into a 'house rule' but I think there needs to be some presidence for this. As a side question: If the person does become visible how does this interact with mirror images?
NiQil 08-11-06, 11:10 PM	As has begun to start being discussed within the Aug 9th FotW thread: the Specific question is does a tanglefoot bag that hits an invisible gladiator make the gladiator visible. If yes: then are there other substances that can do the same thing, I vaguely remember a conversation about bags of flour, but i did not find anything in the court decisions. Is there still some miss chance as they are not fully visible. This is getting very much into a 'house rule' but I think there needs to be some presidence for this. As a side question: If the person does become visible how does this interact with mirror images? My take: the so-called "flour fix" for invisibility does the following: It makes an invisible foe visible for the purposes of being able to track the opponent with your eyes. It does not remove the miss chance associated with the total concealment (since it is a magical concealment), nor does it take away the fact that being attacked by the invisible foe will deny you your Dex and such. In other words, the only thing it does is make the invisible opponent able to be located by their movements. The tanglefoot goo would be treated in a similar fashion. As to your questions about mirror images....if the principle is hit with a tanglefoot bag, then all of the images would also appear to be hit with a tanglefoot bag. This would fall into the same category as the spell description's example of getting hit with a firebal and all of the images showing fire damage.
Erithmu 08-11-06, 11:23 PM	Follow up questions: 1) Mirror image states that if used in conjunction with Invis that the images cannot be affected with the caster is invisible. Does this follow for this situation or are there multiple invisible things covered in goo. I try to only ask sticky questions (pun intended)
TheMagister 08-11-06, 11:37 PM	My take: the so-called "flour fix" for invisibility does the following: It makes an invisible foe visible for the purposes of being able to track the opponent with your eyes. It does not remove the miss chance associated with the total concealment (since it is a magical concealment), nor does it take away the fact that being attacked by the invisible foe will deny you your Dex and such. In other words, the only thing it does is make the invisible opponent able to be located by their movements. The tanglefoot goo would be treated in a similar fashion. As to your questions about mirror images....if the principle is hit with a tanglefoot bag, then all of the images would also appear to be hit with a tanglefoot bag. This would fall into the same category as the spell description's example of getting hit with a firebal and all of the images showing fire damage. The DMG pg. 295 definition of invisibility gives us this example: "One could coat an invisibile object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour fell off or blew away)." All I'm saying is that tanglefoot goo would be superior to flour in this function. If you coat someone in glow in the dark dust in a pitch black room, you'd be able to "visually detect" that person and locate their position. TM
NiQil 08-11-06, 11:40 PM	Follow up questions: 1) Mirror image states that if used in conjunction with Invis that the images cannot be affected with the caster is invisible. Does this follow for this situation or are there multiple invisible things covered in goo. I try to only ask sticky questions (pun intended) I haven't read the fight this is in, so this is based on your description only. Here is a scenerio: Caster A buffs with invisiblity. Caster A buffs with mirror image. Fighter B throws a tanglefoot bag at caster A, making a successful attack against the appropriate AC, and also bypassing the total concealment offered by invisibility. The miss chance from mirror image will not apply to this attack, as the spell says that it has no effect if caster A is invisible. Caster A is now tangled in goo. He is still invisible, since he has done nothing to break the invisibility. Mirror image still does not apply, and will continue to not apply until such time as caster A breaks the invisibilty. Caster A now attacks Fighter B with a ranged touch attack, becoming visible. Caster A is now in tanglefoot goo with mirror images also in tanglefoot goo, since they will now be effective that the invisibility has been broken.
NiQil 08-11-06, 11:46 PM	The DMG pg. 295 definition of invisibility gives us this example: "One could coat an invisibile object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour fell off or blew away)." All I'm saying is that tanglefoot goo would be superior to flour in this function. If you coat someone in glow in the dark dust in a pitch black room, you'd be able to "visually detect" that person and locate their position. TM Locate their position, yes. Make the total concealment miss chance go away, no. None of your options will take that away. To allow flour or tanglefoot goo or glow in the dark dust or paint or horse manure to override concealment provided by a magical spell is purely a house rule. As I said, it will allow you to track their movements so that you know which square they are in when you go to attack them, but you still have to overcome the miss chance as normal.
MindWandererB 08-12-06, 12:05 AM	Follow up questions: 1) Mirror image states that if used in conjunction with Invis that the images cannot be affected with the caster is invisible. Does this follow for this situation or are there multiple invisible things covered in goo. I try to only ask sticky questions (pun intended)I think the logic is that if you are invisible, so are your images. If something makes you visible, like being coated in something, then your images are similarly affected. So there would be multiple flour-coated, otherwise invisible images of you.
TheMagister 08-12-06, 12:22 AM	Locate their position, yes. Make the total concealment miss chance go away, no. None of your options will take that away. To allow flour or tanglefoot goo or glow in the dark dust or paint or horse manure to override concealment provided by a magical spell is purely a house rule. As I said, it will allow you to track their movements so that you know which square they are in when you go to attack them, but you still have to overcome the miss chance as normal. Were this situation involving the spell displacement, I would agree with you, as the spell's specific function is to provide a 50% miss chance via misdirection. In the case of invisibility, the 50% miss chance derives from not being able to visually detect the target, a quality that is negated (or at least degraded) by being coated with a visible substance. Magic is not infallible, nor is it automatically unaffected by mundane circumstances. I would like to present another situation. This one is similar, but the circumstances would (should) lean even further toward negating the miss chance associated with invisibility. Situation: Sdentch has a net. Her target is invisibile. Through a series of bad rolls on the target's part and mad, insane luck on Sdentch's part, Sdentch has successfully hit the invisible target with her net. The target is completely entangled in the net, its strands surrounding him/her on all sides. Sdentch gleefully begins smacking her trapped target with her shield, quickly pulverizing him/her. The target cannot even begin to hide, because the covering of the net renders his outline visible. Sdentch can see his every movement because the net moves with him. Tanglefoot goo is very much like a liquid net. TM
NiQil 08-12-06, 12:30 AM	Were this situation involving the spell displacement, I would agree with you, as the spell's specific function is to provide a 50% miss chance via misdirection. In the case of invisibility, the 50% miss chance derives from not being able to visually detect the target, a quality that is negated (or at least degraded) by being coated with a visible substance. Magic is not infallible, nor is it automatically unaffected by mundane circumstances. I would like to present another situation. This one is similar, but the circumstances would (should) lean even further toward negating the miss chance associated with invisibility. Situation: Sdentch has a net. Her target is invisibile. Through a series of bad rolls on the target's part and mad, insane luck on Sdentch's part, Sdentch has successfully hit the invisible target with her net. The target is completely entangled in the net, its strands surrounding him/her on all sides. Sdentch gleefully begins smacking her trapped target with her shield, quickly pulverizing him/her. The target cannot even begin to hide, because the covering of the net renders his outline visible. Sdentch can see his every movement because the net moves with him. Tanglefoot goo is very much like a liquid net. TM My response would be exactly the same. It would make the target visibly detectable, allowing you to know which space to attack. It would not negate the miss chance invisibility provides until the invisibility itself is negated. What you are saying is akin to saying that if an invisible attacker is walking through deep snow, the snow coming up around his ankles should negate his invisibility. There is a distinct difference between being able to visually detect where an invisible opponent is located and actually negating invisibility. All of the options you are offering do not negate invisibility. They make the target's space visually detectable. What you are apparantly wanting them to do is act as a See Invisibility spell, which they don't. However, if you feel that I am mistaken, feel free to wait for other Elder responses. I'm sure they'll be along.
McJarvis 08-12-06, 12:32 AM	Situation: Sdentch has a net. Her target is invisibile. Through a series of bad rolls on the target's part and mad, insane luck on Sdentch's part, Sdentch has successfully hit the invisible target with her net. The target is completely entangled in the net, its strands surrounding him/her on all sides. Sdentch gleefully begins smacking her trapped target with her shield, quickly pulverizing him/her. The target cannot even begin to hide, because the covering of the net renders his outline visible. Sdentch can see his every movement because the net moves with him. TM The net wouldn't do what you want it to do either: It will only identify the square in which the invisible person is. Tanglefoot bag and the net have no language to remove invisibility. Even with Glitterdust(Wizard level 2 spell), it makes no mention of the invisible being losing thier invisibility: Only gaining a -40 to hide.(..which only helps identify where the critter is- not remove invisibility) EDIT:: Of course, while I was typing this NyQil was already making the same response...
TelinArtho 08-12-06, 12:47 AM	Actually - I think this is already covered in the rules, just not with the example of flour or tanglefoot goo: One could coat an invisible object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour fell off or blew away). An invisible creature can pick up a small visible item and hide it on his person (tucked in a pocket or behind a cloak) and render it effectively invisible. Invisible creatures leave tracks. They can be tracked normally. Footprints in sand, mud, or other soft surfaces can give enemies clues to an invisible creature’s location. An invisible creature in the water displaces water, revealing its location. The invisible creature, however, is still hard to see and benefits from concealment Covering in flour or in goo is essentially the same condition as the displaced water. While the form is in general visible - the target still benefits from the concealment.
TheMagister 08-12-06, 12:47 AM	My response would be exactly the same. It would make the target visibly detectable, allowing you to know which space to attack. It would not negate the miss chance invisibility provides until the invisibility itself is negated. What you are saying is akin to saying that if an invisible attacker is walking through deep snow, the snow coming up around his ankles should negate his invisibility. There is a distinct difference between being able to visually detect where an invisible opponent is located and actually negating invisibility. All of the options you are offering do not negate invisibility. They make the target's space visually detectable. What you are apparantly wanting them to do is act as a See Invisibility spell, which they don't. However, if you feel that I am mistaken, feel free to wait for other Elder responses. I'm sure they'll be along. Ever seen "Hollow Man" (or played "the six degrees of Kevin Bacon")? I know what my problem is. I'm too darned logical for DnD rules-lawyering. Riddle me this, then. What difference is there (besides being specifically mentioned in the spell description) in being outlined in light (ala Faerie Fire) and being outlined in goo/powder/netting? Faerie Fire excerpt: "A pale glow surrounds and outlines the subjects. [snip] Outlined creatures do not benefit from the concealment normally provided by [snip]invisibility, or similar effects. [snip] To use yours and McJarvis' interpretation, the faerie fire spell would render the affected invisibile creatures unable to hide (since they do not benefit from the concealment normally provided by invisibility), but a creature seeking to attack the faerie fired creatures would STILL take the 50% miss chance granted by the invisibility spell. It just don't make no sense, as they say down here in Texas. The 50% miss chance granted by invisibility is a by-product of the total concealment portion of the invisibility spell. If one could find a way to negate the total concealment granted by the spell (by rendering the subject detectable by sight), then the 50% miss chance should no longer apply. TM
TheMagister 08-12-06, 12:48 AM	Actually - I think this is already covered in the rules, just not with the example of flour or tanglefoot goo: Covering in flour or in goo is essentially the same condition as the displaced water. While the form is in general visible - the target still benefits from the concealment. HEY! Maybe you're right! After all, there is a RAW difference between TOTAL concealment (50% miss chance) and plain jane concealment (20% miss chance). TM
McJarvis 08-12-06, 01:18 AM	What difference is there (besides being specifically mentioned in the spell description) in being outlined in light (ala Faerie Fire) and being outlined in goo/powder/netting? That is actually it exactly. Faerie Fire specifically mentions that it does what it does: glitterdust, on the other hand, does not.
TheMagister 08-12-06, 01:37 AM	You didn't answer my question.
McJarvis 08-12-06, 01:40 AM	You didn't answer my question. Yes, I've seen hollow man. :-) The answer to your question was merely that the rules stating a specific difference is the only difference we require. There is no _logical_ difference between thorough flouring and faerie fire, except the rules say there is a difference. In the same way there is no logical difference between a skinny human and a half-elf: but the rules say there is a big difference.(namely: that no one is allowed to play a half-elf and think of themselves as powerful) Of course, there's also no logical difference between me and an elder, except the rules of CoCo say elders are more important than me. ;)
Erithmu 08-12-06, 09:47 AM	@TFB gang: So here is what I am getting: When someone invisible is struck by TF goo, they are able to be pinpointed in their location, but still benifit from a 50% miss chance. If the caster has mirror images up the mirror images do not appear. This effect goes as well for anything that can coat something such as flour. What I am looking for is two or more elders to make something final that is then added to the court decisions in the prison thread. I say this so that we get something that everyone can follow in the case that it comes up again. More discussion is ok, but Cyra does have a date with a TLT raid that I would like to keep her to.
hogarth 08-13-06, 08:32 AM	Why are the lantern archon and the belker missing from the Diplomacy allies list? They both have an Int score of between 3 and 6.
Stormwind 08-13-06, 09:33 AM	Regarding the Shadows, create spawn ability Create Spawn (Su): Any humanoid reduced to Strength 0 by a shadow becomes a shadow under the control of its killer within 1d4 rounds. If a Shadow kills a humanoid and creates a shadow spawn in a fight, obviously the spawned Shadow is available for the rest of that fight. However, what happens next? Are the spawned Shadows available just for the single fight in which they are killed, or are they available for the entire 3FC. I would think that since things like poison persist for the 3FC (or until used), that the spawned Shadows would too. The problem however is as follows: If spawned shadows persist for the 3FC then what happens in the case of a player character being killed and becoming a Shadow. What is the situation for the next fight in this case? On the other hand, the create spawn ability is an integral part of the Shadows CR (and +LA) and thus limiting it is denying a Shadow character a part of it's racial abilities. Obviously (and by previous elder clarification) you must quest if you want the Shadow as a permanent ally. I need an elder ruling on the following question: Do spawned Shadows persist for the entire 3FC or are they only available for the single fight in which they were killed?
Traevanon 08-13-06, 10:03 AM	Here we go... Dwarf wearing Plate Mail, using Longstrider = Speed 30' With Run Feat = 150' running speed (speed not reduced to 4x due to his dwarfiness) Correct?
Vathelokai 08-13-06, 10:26 AM	Here we go... Dwarf wearing Plate Mail, using Longstrider = Speed 30' With Run Feat = 150' running speed (speed not reduced to 4x due to his dwarfiness) Correct?Not quite. The dwarf base speed is effected by the dwarfiness. The run feat is not and is still slowed by encumberance. As a side note, this is more of a tavern question, since this rule is not in debate.
Pittbull 08-13-06, 12:46 PM	When someone invisible is struck by TF goo, they are able to be pinpointed in their location, but still benifit from a 50% miss chance. If the caster has mirror images up the mirror images do not appear. This effect goes as well for anything that can coat something such as flour. I got the impression that flour doesn't make invisible guys visible by coating, but by showing the footprints on the floor or the "hollowman in rain"-effect, which deosn't derive from coating, but from taking space in a certain area (suspension in the case of flour or rain). Every item that is put on an invsible creature becomes invisible too. The is reason is, because of this: Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible; items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature. Light, however, never becomes invisible, although a source of light can become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source). Any part of an item that the subject carries but that extends more than 10 feet from it becomes visible. But you allready ruled that the gue sticky visible on the invisible creature, though I'm not sure about the reason. All in all the 50% miss-chance, can't be denied by tangle-foot-bags, ectoplasmic gues, flour or rain.
Pittbull 08-13-06, 12:47 PM	Why are the lantern archon and the belker missing from the Diplomacy allies list? They both have an Int score of between 3 and 6. I have no idea, why they aren't.
Pittbull 08-13-06, 12:51 PM	I need an elder ruling on the following question: Do spawned Shadows persist for the entire 3FC or are they only available for the single fight in which they were killed? Here is my opinion: If the shadow-character has to quest for its spawn, the spawn should persist for a full 3WC. If it is destroy in fight 1 or 2, he doesn't get it back until the completion of the circle, just like an ally. Of course the shadow-character is limited ECL-2=CR-cap and can't have unlimited spawns, but they should counted as class-allies. If the shadow kills another humanoid character in an arena match, the oponent doesn't become a spawn.
Stormwind 08-13-06, 01:25 PM	If the shadow-character has to quest for its spawn, the spawn should persist for a full 3WC. If it is destroy in fight 1 or 2, he doesn't get it back until the completion of the circle, just like an ally. Of course the shadow-character is limited ECL-2=CR-cap and can't have unlimited spawns, but they should counted as class-allies. This makes perfect sense and I agree 100%. If the shadow kills another humanoid character in an arena match, the oponent doesn't become a spawn.Why? I can understand if the Nimbus would restore a spawn back into a pc after the fight, but for example in a FFA, the shadow ought to be able to use his racial ability, otherwise you are negating one of the racial abilities of the Shadow completely (Since there are other ways to gain a shadow ally).
Pittbull 08-13-06, 01:44 PM	Why? I can understand if the Nimbus would restore a spawn back into a pc after the fight, but for example in a FFA, the shadow ought to be able to use his racial ability, otherwise you are negating one of the racial abilities of the Shadow completely (Since there are other ways to gain a shadow ally). Oh yes, in an ongoing fight, making a spawn should be possible, but at the end the NimbusTM repairs everything.
Zelck 08-14-06, 07:11 PM	Can powerstones be metapsionicked? How would they work? EDIT: This is really important, since it concerns the fight I'm running. Someone wants to use stones of Enlarged powers (no PP increase, so no GP increase). Are they legal, and would he have to expend his psionic focus to use them?
waywreth 08-15-06, 09:10 AM	Can powerstones be metapsionicked? How would they work? EDIT: This is really important, since it concerns the fight I'm running. Someone wants to use stones of Enlarged powers (no PP increase, so no GP increase). Are they legal, and would he have to expend his psionic focus to use them? Although I'm not an elder, I can provide a quote from the SRD for you on this topic: A manifester can’t use a metapsionic feat to alter a power being cast from a power stone, dorje, or other device.
Traevanon 08-15-06, 09:51 AM	The Powerstone in question has been created with the Metapsionic Feat built in. He needs to know if this is legal and if so does it expend the creator's Psionic Focus or the Caster's?
Traevanon 08-15-06, 10:07 AM	Please consider the following questions: I would like to know whether it is okay to Craft masterwork tools with a DC20 craft check.Creating Masterwork Items: You can make a masterwork item—a weapon, suit of armor, shield, or tool that conveys a bonus on its use through its exceptional craftsmanship, not through being magical. To create a masterwork item, you create the masterwork component as if it were a separate item in addition to the standard item. The masterwork component has its own price (300 gp for a weapon or 150 gp for a suit of armor or a shield) and a Craft DC of 20. The only skills that this has any real effect on is Poisonmaking and Alchemy (and in an exceedingly minor way crafting for money) as they are the only skills where a total bonus higher than 10 is required at all. I would simply shift a few skill points and/or some money around if this is disallowed, but I would like to see it allowed. Also, are we allowed to make mundane items with craft skills such as backpacks, caltrops, rope or saddles? I know its a very minor amount of money saved, but that's not the point. This character would like to craft as many things as possible by his own hand.
hogarth 08-15-06, 02:25 PM	Is the formula for "Handle Animal" allies equal to: 5 + HD for animals 10 + HD for other types? It almost appears so, but there are some exceptions (e.g. Legendary Tiger is 0 + HD, Pyro-/Cryo-Hydra is 12 + HD). Also, shouldn't the Hellwasp Swarm be a Diplomacy ally (since it has an Int of 6)?
Pittbull 08-15-06, 02:32 PM	Is the formula for "Handle Animal" allies equal to: 5 + HD for animals 10 + HD for other types? It almost appears so, but there are some exceptions (e.g. Legendary Tiger is 0 + HD, Pyro-/Cryo-Hydra is 12 + HD). Also, shouldn't the Hellwasp Swarm be a Diplomacy ally (since it has an Int of 6)? Sorry, I don't know. This list is made by LLMadCow and Cat.
TelinArtho 08-16-06, 12:24 AM	Looking for an elder to come and respond about the Kraegin versus Chameleon fight. Issue on the table: Does Hold Person (paralysis) make it so a character who is using Hide in Plain Sight is: a) hiding at the last hide check s/he made b) hiding at the last hide check s/he made minus the difference in dex (when paralyzed your dex is treated as 0) c) unable to hide at all because paralysis prevents taking any actions other than purely mental ones or d) some other option not listed here Here's a simple diagram of the situation: t k . w . c . w t= Torrent - has not spotted Chameleon yet k= Kraegin - spots Chameleon and on a ready action casts Hold Person c= Chameleon - attacking Torrent - which is why he is spotted by Kraegin w= nearest wall The question is whether or not Torrent gets a chance to see Chameleon. Please review the conversation in the FotW thread and the fight itself if you need more specifics about the situation.
Pittbull 08-16-06, 09:03 AM	Here is my response: Sorry I can't read your discussion in the Fight-thread, since my time is very limited, without this knowledge, I would rule. If the character is hidden while he gets paralyzed, the character stays hidden. ..... But a paralyzed character can't renew his hide. I might be wrong, but this is my opinion.
hogarth 08-16-06, 04:23 PM	Why are the lantern archon and the belker missing from the Diplomacy allies list? They both have an Int score of between 3 and 6. Also missing is the hoary hunter's "hoary steed" from the Epic SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hoaryHunter.htm#hoarySteed
Penstar 08-16-06, 05:54 PM	Hello, I'm new to CoCo and I have a question about grappling. I was wondering if a grappler could use maneuvers such as "Throw Foe to the Ground" or "Toss Foe" when he has an enemy pinned. I couldn't find these maneuvers in the SRD, but they are in this article of Rules of The Game: All About Grappling (Part 3) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050315a)
Book5 08-16-06, 09:38 PM	Hello, I'm new to CoCo and I have a question about grappling. I was wondering if a grappler could use maneuvers such as "Throw Foe to the Ground" or "Toss Foe" when he has an enemy pinned. I couldn't find these maneuvers in the SRD, but they are in this article of Rules of The Game: All About Grappling (Part 3) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050315a) To my knowledge we mostly support the rules of the game. You should probably refrence the rules of the game if you include them in your tactics however ;)
Book5 08-16-06, 09:40 PM	Looking for an elder to come and respond about the Kraegin versus Chameleon fight. Issue on the table: Does Hold Person (paralysis) make it so a character who is using Hide in Plain Sight is: a) hiding at the last hide check s/he made b) hiding at the last hide check s/he made minus the difference in dex (when paralyzed your dex is treated as 0) c) unable to hide at all because paralysis prevents taking any actions other than purely mental ones or d) some other option not listed here B - as he is not intuitivly adusting to the changing position of his opponent.
Book5 08-16-06, 09:44 PM	But you allready ruled that the gue sticky visible on the invisible creature, though I'm not sure about the reason. Because it was in second ed (hey - the "things on your person become invisible" makes too much logic - but I've been throwing flower on people for years) SO ....
Book5 08-16-06, 09:54 PM	Please consider the following questions: I would like to know whether it is okay to Craft masterwork tools with a DC20 craft check. The only skills that this has any real effect on is Poisonmaking and Alchemy (and in an exceedingly minor way crafting for money) as they are the only skills where a total bonus higher than 10 is required at all. I would simply shift a few skill points and/or some money around if this is disallowed, but I would like to see it allowed. Also, are we allowed to make mundane items with craft skills such as backpacks, caltrops, rope or saddles? I know its a very minor amount of money saved, but that's not the point. This character would like to craft as many things as possible by his own hand. Alright, I will :thinks: Ok, So there are a couple problems here - a, no listed bonus. first thing you wanna do is give it a +2 - boom you made your first mistake. Does armor give a plus 2? nope it gives a -1 armor check bonus or a +1 max dex... so without a listed bonus a masterwork tool gives you absolutly... "nothing" but you can sell it for more and or turn it into magical tools (ooh +10 Thieves Tools....) and if you have this itch to make new stuff I would suggest that masterworking a tool makes it half weight. b, actually thats about it you can make masterwork tools. They gain no bonus, but that are a requisite for making magical tools. So no. You don't need to move points. c, and this is more ask an elder - but still more tavern. The idea behind the ask the elders thread is that there are certain inconsitancies and conflicts in the srd - this case is one of minor ommision - but mostly procedural in nature. :tiphat:
Book5 08-16-06, 10:10 PM	I need an elder ruling on the following question: Do spawned Shadows persist for the entire 3FC or are they only available for the single fight in which they were killed? My opinion - "the arena officials provide you a replacement shadow - due to the necessity of resurrecting the galdiator" or "time is bent and you use the shadow for the durration of your fights, only to have him resurrected as per normal and flung back in time to complete his fights" or some such rot. basically they continue and even if it is a player you get to have a shadow for the remainder. Then the harvester takes them home at the end of the cycle... ;)
DSugui 08-17-06, 12:21 AM	How much does it cost a fully trained Elite Array Hippogriff? The rules are contradictory regarding elite array (the text says it would cost the double, but the cost listed is less than that), and doesn't mention trainning cost at all. Edit: When I say fully trained, I mean Combat Riding Pack.
Traevanon 08-17-06, 04:30 AM	@Book: - I discussed this in the Tavern and was told to check here. I keep getting told to take things to the tavern, but the tavern keeps sending me here. Apparently nobody likes my questions. :confused: Other people just push the rules and take the risk that they will get called on it 5 levels later. I'd rather get this taken care of before I start KO-ing people with the Drow Poison I made with my tools. - Masterwork Tools do have a listed bonus, they are +2. You can buy a set of masterwork tools for certain skills which give you a +2 circumstance bonus for the skills. @everybody: - I guess until there is an answer I will just escrow the difference in money between regular and masterwork tools (610gp). That way it wont become a big mess later.
MindWandererB 08-17-06, 08:45 PM	Interesting issue just came up: the price on a Large composite bow. We have two conflicting Elder rulings on the subject. Pittbull is on record as saying that the Strength component is not doubled (so a Large Composite [+4] bow would cost: [100(base) x2(large)] +400(+4) +300(MW) = 900gp). NiQil, on the other hand, recently put up an audit where the Strength component was doubled (so that same bow would be 1300 gp). We need a tiebreaker on the subject, if someone doesn't mind.
NiQil 08-17-06, 09:33 PM	Interesting issue just came up: the price on a Large composite bow. We have two conflicting Elder rulings on the subject. Pittbull is on record as saying that the Strength component is not doubled (so a Large Composite [+4] bow would cost: [100(base) x2(large)] +400(+4) +300(MW) = 900gp). NiQil, on the other hand, recently put up an audit where the Strength component was doubled (so that same bow would be 1300 gp). We need a tiebreaker on the subject, if someone doesn't mind. The reasoning behind my opinion on this subject is that the base cost of a +0 Str Composite Longbow is listed at 100 gp. Therefore, that would make the base cost of a +1 Str Composite Longbow 200 gp, the base of a +2 Str Composite Longbow 300 gp, etc. The composite longbow listed on the weapons chart is considered a +0 bow, so if you are changing the Str output, then the base cost changes. Then you would add the large cost, then the mw cost. You are not changing a basic bow (+0) to a more advanced bow (+1, etc), but rather designing a different basic bow to begin with, and then building on it from there. So the large cost would be taken from the cost of the base bow, including it's Str modifier. If the cost of the Str modifier is not part of the base cost, then there should not be any rules against upping the Str modifier of an existing the bow, because it would be a modification like any enchantment.
Zelck 08-18-06, 12:29 AM	First, can we get a resolution on powerstones of metapsionicked powers? How would they work? I'd argue that we should allow them since scrolls can be metamagicked, and they require the expenditure of the user's psionic focus. This might be sticky with Use Psionic Device, although we could allow the DC20 Emulate a Class Feature for it. Second, I was thinking of getting a Bag of Holding sometime, and was wondering what exactly would puncture the thing. Can I put an arrow in it? How about a quiver of arrows? Half its volume in arrows? Full of arrows? Or does it only go poof when I put much stuff in it, and some of the stuff are sharp/pointy? What about stuff like lances? Finally, what happens if a Portable Hole and a Bag of Holding meet in the arena? Are they replaced after the fight? I'd argue that they should, otherwise this could be a really annoying method of committing economic warfare.
Vathelokai 08-20-06, 01:48 AM	@Book: - I discussed this in the Tavern and was told to check here. I keep getting told to take things to the tavern, but the tavern keeps sending me here. Apparently nobody likes my questions. :confused: Don't feel bad. This place is far less organized than any of us would like to believe. Other people just push the rules and take the risk that they will get called on it 5 levels later. I'd rather get this taken care of before I start KO-ing people with the Drow Poison I made with my tools.Yeah, that bugs me too. But sometimes no one know the answer to a question, and that's the only way to force the issue. For example, my cleric/wizard will soon start sacrificing wizard spells to spontaneous cast cure spells, since no one has declaired it illegal yet.- Masterwork Tools do have a listed bonus, they are +2. Good idea on escrowing the money. It's the safest bet. There is no rule for crafting items really. It is all DM perogative as to what skills can make what items. Since people can craft magic tools that give a +5 bonus to skills, I don't see why they could not craft mundane items. My (worthless) vote is that it should be allowed, but the craft skill has to make sense. For example, making an alchemist lab would take craft alchemy (seperate from the actual alchemy skill); craft leatherworking for backpacks and saddles, craft rope or weaving for making ropes. I'd say calthrops count as craft weapons. In any case, there are masterwork and non masterwork tools, so the DCs could be either. The alchemy lab I think would have to be masterwork.
Vathelokai 08-20-06, 02:09 AM	First, can we get a resolution on powerstones of metapsionicked powers? How would they work? I'd argue that we should allow them since scrolls can be metamagicked, and they require the expenditure of the user's psionic focus. This might be sticky with Use Psionic Device, although we could allow the DC20 Emulate a Class Feature for it.I'd vote against it. I see the pp augmentation closer to the wizard metamagic. If it is allowed, I'd say that the pc has to expend their focus to use it. In any event, Hassan will make good use of it if it's allowed. Second, I was thinking of getting a Bag of Holding sometime, and was wondering what exactly would puncture the thing. Can I put an arrow in it? How about a quiver of arrows? Half its volume in arrows? Full of arrows? Or does it only go poof when I put much stuff in it, and some of the stuff are sharp/pointy? What about stuff like lances? Some of that is covered in the rules of the game article Carrying things part 3 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20051101a). There are no real rules for thowing sharp objects into a bag, but sharp objects can definitely go in an efficient quiver (which can hold hundreds of arrows, a dozen javelins an a lance or two). So basicly, unless a house rule is created against it, anything you throw in the bag is considered to be sheathed/quivered and is completely allowed. Finally, what happens if a Portable Hole and a Bag of Holding meet in the arena? Are they replaced after the fight? I'd argue that they should, otherwise this could be a really annoying method of committing economic warfare.I agree they should be replaced. It would be interesting though to see a fight where both opponents were sucked into the astral plane and the one who made it back before 10 rounds was the winner.
Vathelokai 08-20-06, 02:21 AM	Can Gather Information checks be used to ignore credit costs of NPC spell casting services above normal levels? If not, what if the spellcasting service produces an "item" with semi-permanent or permanent duration?((such as deeper-darkness and continual flame on a specific item?)) Gather info as a free action can be used to ignore the credit cost for anything that you would normaly pay for in the black market thread. So spells (scroll or npc casting) can be aquired with it, assuming your gather skill is through the roof. Spells like deeper darkness cast on a rock are just like other prebuffed spells (ever think of darkness on your sling bullets? ;) ).
Vathelokai 08-20-06, 02:27 AM	Ye olde unanswered questions list Many of these only have one elder response and request input from other elders. [QUOTE=hogarth]Why are the lantern archon and the belker missing from the Diplomacy allies list? They both have an Int score of between 3 and 6. Can they be added? Also, shouldn't the Hellwasp Swarm be a Diplomacy ally (since it has an Int of 6)? [quote=stormwind]Do spawned Shadows persist for the entire 3FC or are they only available for the single fight in which they were killed? [quote=Trevanon]I would like to know whether it is okay to Craft masterwork tools with a DC20 craft check. [QUOTE=Penstar]I was wondering if a grappler could use maneuvers such as "Throw Foe to the Ground" or "Toss Foe" when he has an enemy pinned. I couldn't find these maneuvers in the SRD, but they are in this article of Rules of The Game: All About Grappling (Part 3) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050315a) [quote=DSugui]How much does it cost a fully combat trained Elite Array Hippogriff? The rules are contradictory regarding elite array (the text says it would cost the double, but the cost listed is less than that), and doesn't mention trainning cost at all. [quote=MindwandererB]the price on a Large composite bow. We have two conflicting Elder rulings on the subject. [quote=Cat]Dragons have this entry in the Draconomicon and although we're core only, we're not oblivious to what clarifications WotC writes in an official souce just because it didn't fit into the core books. Were it for that alone, I'd say no weapons. (Un)fortunately, we also have the fact that dragons can cast spells with their clumsy claws. Okay, now the next question is 'how complicated are the finger patterns for casting a spell'. This all goes way too far into the metaphysical fantasy sector where real-life logic fails. I'd say we hold an Elder vote. [quote=Vathelokai]Nowhere does it say that only divine spells can be converted to spontaneous cure spells. So, Can a mystic thurge (or any multi class cleric) 'loose' arcane spells to convert them to cure spells?
NiQil 08-20-06, 02:52 AM	Let me see if I can crack off some of these.... Why are the lantern archon and the belker missing from the Diplomacy allies list? They both have an Int score of between 3 and 6. Can they be added? Also, shouldn't the Hellwasp Swarm be a Diplomacy ally (since it has an Int of 6)? This would be a decision Cat needs to make. A PM to him with this question might be in order. Do spawned Shadows persist for the entire 3FC or are they only available for the single fight in which they were killed? I'll pass on this one until I can look into it a little deeper... I would like to know whether it is okay to Craft masterwork tools with a DC20 craft check. To my knowledge, I am unaware of any reason this cannot be done. You would need to start with a score of at least a +10 in Craft (Blacksmithing) to make these tools. That being said, I would not allow these newly created tools to be used to make things until after the character has been placed active for the first time. In other words, you would not be able to craft masterwork weaponsmithing tools at character creation and then use those newly created tools to make weapons at character creation....the weapons made with the crafted tools would need to be made after the character has been activated for the first time. The "daisy chain" of crafting that would happen feels just a touch too abusive if it is all done at creation. I was wondering if a grappler could use maneuvers such as "Throw Foe to the Ground" or "Toss Foe" when he has an enemy pinned. I couldn't find these maneuvers in the SRD, but they are in this article of Rules of The Game: All About Grappling (Part 3) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050315a) The maneuvers in question here are listed as optional rules in the article that is referenced. To date, CoCo has not adopted these optional rules, though it might be worth looking at in the future. How much does it cost a fully combat trained Elite Array Hippogriff? The rules are contradictory regarding elite array (the text says it would cost the double, but the cost listed is less than that), and doesn't mention trainning cost at all I'll pass on this one for now. the price on a Large composite bow. We have two conflicting Elder rulings on the subject. I've already stated my reasoning behind this one, so others will need to respond. Dragons have this entry in the Draconomicon and although we're core only, we're not oblivious to what clarifications WotC writes in an official souce just because it didn't fit into the core books. Were it for that alone, I'd say no weapons. (Un)fortunately, we also have the fact that dragons can cast spells with their clumsy claws. Okay, now the next question is 'how complicated are the finger patterns for casting a spell'. This all goes way too far into the metaphysical fantasy sector where real-life logic fails. I'd say we hold an Elder vote. I would tend to agree with Cat here...so if and when he sets up a vote, a decision would be made then. Nowhere does it say that only divine spells can be converted to spontaneous cure spells. So, Can a mystic thurge (or any multi class cleric) 'loose' arcane spells to convert them to cure spells? Here is the relevant text: Spontaneous Casting: A good cleric (or a neutral cleric of a good deity) can channel stored spell energy into healing spells that the cleric did not prepare ahead of time. The cleric can “lose” any prepared spell that is not a domain spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower (a cure spell is any spell with “cure” in its name). An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric of an evil deity), can’t convert prepared spells to cure spells but can convert them to inflict spells (an inflict spell is one with “inflict” in its name). A cleric who is neither good nor evil and whose deity is neither good nor evil can convert spells to either cure spells or inflict spells (player’s choice). Once the player makes this choice, it cannot be reversed. This choice also determines whether the cleric turns or commands undead (see below). I would say no. The reason for this is that in the above quote, the passage is very specific about saying that a cleric can lose spells to spontaneously heal. It doesn't say the PC, or the character, or anything similar...it is very specific about saying cleric in all relevant sentences. This, to me, says that the spells converted have to come from the spells that can be cast by any cleric levels the character has. So I would say that any spontaneous spell must originate from the cleric's prepared spells. This ruling would also extend to druids who want to replace spells with SNA spontaneously...they have to come from the druid's prepared spells.
TheMagister 08-20-06, 07:08 AM	I would say no. The reason for this is that in the above quote, the passage is very specific about saying that a cleric can lose spells to spontaneously heal. It doesn't say the PC, or the character, or anything similar...it is very specific about saying cleric in all relevant sentences. This, to me, says that the spells converted have to come from the spells that can be cast by any cleric levels the character has. So I would say that any spontaneous spell must originate from the cleric's prepared spells. This ruling would also extend to druids who want to replace spells with SNA spontaneously...they have to come from the druid's prepared spells. Your pardon, but a cleric 3/wizard 3 IS a cleric. The arcane spells that he has prepared would seem to qualify as "any prepared spell that is not a domain spell". To arrive at the conclusion that you have would require that sentence to read "...any prepared divine spell that is not a domain spell". :twocents: TM
McJarvis 08-20-06, 11:55 AM	Spells like deeper darkness cast on a rock are just like other prebuffed spells (ever think of darkness on your sling bullets? ;) ). Man- I can't tell if you're serious or not. Seeing as how ammunition is destroyed I doubt putting darkness on ammo would be a good idea.
Vathelokai 08-20-06, 03:16 PM	I was serious about the prebuffing part. I forgot about the ammo being destroyed on use (a rule I don't use at home for slings, only for arrows).
NiQil 08-20-06, 03:24 PM	Your pardon, but a cleric 3/wizard 3 IS a cleric. The arcane spells that he has prepared would seem to qualify as "any prepared spell that is not a domain spell". To arrive at the conclusion that you have would require that sentence to read "...any prepared divine spell that is not a domain spell". :twocents: TM This is the same argument that Vath appears to be making. Using your example, a cleric 3/wizard 3 is only a cleric for 3 levels. The other 3 levels, he is not a cleric. If he were a cleric for those wizard levels, then taking those wizard levels would change the name of the wizard levels to cleric-wizard levels, of which no such class exists. To put the idea in another way.....if a wizard 3 takes three levels of cleric, does that mean that all spells he prepares are now wizard spells? No. So how can all wizard spells he prepare now be cleric spells? In short, once again...I maintain that spontaneous conversion must come from prepared spells that arise from the same class that allows the spontaneous spells, because that is what the passage I quoted states. It never talks about anything other than a cleric being able to do this (and the druid version for SNA is the same). If wizard spells or druid or ranger spells were eligible for conversion to cure/inflict spells, then it would not say cleric, it would say "the player" or "the character" or something similar. The passage I quoted was very specific about saying cleric in any place something else could have been mentioned.
Stormwind 08-20-06, 03:24 PM	@Vathelokai, McJarvis: Actually ammunition is only destroyed on a hit. If you miss then there is a 50/50 chance of it being destroyed. Since you could simply delibrately miss, that means that prebuffing deeper darkness on ammunition has a 50/50 chance of working.
Zelck 08-20-06, 03:33 PM	I'd vote against it. I see the pp augmentation closer to the wizard metamagic. If it is allowed, I'd say that the pc has to expend their focus to use it. In any event, Hassan will make good use of it if it's allowed. I think PP augmentation is more like the "free augmentation" spells get from increased caster levels. For instance, an augmented 10 PP Energy Ball is similar to a fireball cast by a 10th level wizard. On the other hand, PP augmentation won't mimic a metamagicked fireball. Besides, a metapsionicked power is often less effective than an analogous metamagicked spell. For instance, an Empowered Fireball cast by a 10th level wizard deals 15d6 damage, while an Empowered Energy Ball cast by a 10th level psion deals only 12d6 damage and requires the expenditure of a psionic focus (note the Empower Power only added two d6's). It takes a 12th level psion to match the damage a 10th level wizard can do. By that time, a wizard can use a Maximized Fireball for even more damage. This disparity is made greater by metamagic rods. For magic/psionic balance, I think we should allow metapsionicked powerstones. Anyway, I see two different ways we can do this. 1) The user expends his or her psionic focus, or makes a DC20 UPD check to emulate a class feature. 2) The creater of the stone expends the psionic focus, but we treat the metapsionicked power as if it required 2 more power points (+1 power level, +2 manifester level). The first one makes more sense and is more balanced (if we use the second one, an Empowered Energy Ball ML10 deals less damage than a normal Energy Ball ML10 in a powerstone). The second one is probably easier to use though.
NiQil 08-20-06, 03:42 PM	Re: Metapsionic powerstones Alright...let me dive in here. What exactly is it that is making everything think that they are not allowed? They work just like metamagic scrolls. With a metamagic scroll, the creator of the scroll builds the metamagic into the scroll along with the spell, which then raises the overall level of the scroll just like it would if the spell was cast with metamagic from memory (and by extension, also raises the cost of the scroll to a spell of the appropriate level). When the scroll is read, it then is cast with the spell with the metamagic already applied. This is exactly how metapsionic powerstones work. Powerstones are created by the manifester with the metapsionic power already applied to the power. This means that it will effect the power in the stone just like manifesting the power from memory would be affected with metapsionics applied. You can then purchase the stone with the metapsionic power at it's new power level using the same pricing structure normal powerstones do. Psionic focus and all that other stuff you have thrown out there has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Vathelokai 08-20-06, 04:02 PM	In short, once again...I maintain that spontaneous conversion must come from prepared spells that arise from the same class that allows the spontaneous spells, because that is what the passage I quoted states. To be fair, I do agree that is the intent of the rules (based on my understanding of DND metaphysics), but the RAW says no such thing. It only says prepared spells cast by a cleric. I've seen elder rulings go both ways (towards RAW or RAI), and I wanted to know how it would swing in this case. Pitt and NiQ are both against it, so if one other elder will chime in, I'd feel good about throwing it in the prison clarification rulings.
Zelck 08-20-06, 04:12 PM	Re: Metapsionic powerstones Alright...let me dive in here. What exactly is it that is making everything think that they are not allowed? They work just like metamagic scrolls. With a metamagic scroll, the creator of the scroll builds the metamagic into the scroll along with the spell, which then raises the overall level of the scroll just like it would if the spell was cast with metamagic from memory (and by extension, also raises the cost of the scroll to a spell of the appropriate level). When the scroll is read, it then is cast with the spell with the metamagic already applied. This is exactly how metapsionic powerstones work. Powerstones are created by the manifester with the metapsionic power already applied to the power. This means that it will effect the power in the stone just like manifesting the power from memory would be affected with metapsionics applied. You can then purchase the stone with the metapsionic power at it's new power level using the same pricing structure normal powerstones do. Psionic focus and all that other stuff you have thrown out there has absolutely nothing to do with it. Well, there has to be some additional cost to using a metapsionic stone other than its PP increase. Because: Enlarge Power [Metapsionic] You can manifest powers farther than normal. Benefit To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus. You can alter a power with a range of close, medium, or long to increase its range by 100%. An enlarged power with a range of close has a range of 50 feet + 5 feet per level, a medium-range power has a range of 200 feet + 20 feet per level, and a long-range power has a range of 800 feet + 80 feet per level. Powers whose ranges are not defined by distance, as well as powers whose ranges are not close, medium, or long, are not affected. Using this feat does not increase the power point cost of the power. In other words, if the user does not have to expend psionic focus or there is no other cost increase or whatever, Enlarge Power is free on powerstones. That just can't be right.
Vathelokai 08-20-06, 04:15 PM	Re: Metapsionic powerstones Alright...let me dive in here. What exactly is it that is making everything think that they are not allowed?They require the expenditure of a psionic focus, which is a class/race feature. They work just like metamagic scrolls. With a metamagic scroll, the creator of the scroll builds the metamagic into the scroll along with the spell, which then raises the overall level of the scroll just like it would if the spell was cast with metamagic from memory (and by extension, also raises the cost of the scroll to a spell of the appropriate level). When the scroll is read, it then is cast with the spell with the metamagic already applied. This is exactly how metapsionic powerstones work. The point in question was weather or not the creator of the stone or the user of the stone expends their focus. I see you ruled that the creator uses their focus. So a note to everyone: All stones with a range get their range doubled for free (see the enlarge power meta). And since most metapsi only costs 2 pp... :D *EDIT* dang, zelck beat me to it.
NiQil 08-20-06, 04:27 PM	Yes...all things that go into a metapsionic powerstone are done at the time of creation, just like a metamagic scroll. So yes, the creator would be the one expending the focus. And yes, this makes enlarged powers basically a free enhancement in stones. Whether I agree with that or not, that's how the rules are written.
Pittbull 08-20-06, 04:47 PM	I agree with NiQil on everything: - Metapsionic powers on stones - Spontaneous casting of arcane spells. - And even his ruling on large composite bows with str-increase. I think his explanation is quite reasonable. My fault! BTW: I still dislike his ruling on Dissolving weapon on bows, GRRRRRRR! POOR LAPH! :mad: ;) :weep: [only mentioned, to say something against him!]
hogarth 08-20-06, 06:13 PM	And yes, this makes enlarged powers basically a free enhancement in stones. Whether I agree with that or not, that's how the rules are written. ...except for the fact that the rules don't mention anything about putting metapsionic feats in powerstones at all.
NiQil 08-20-06, 06:34 PM	...except for the fact that the rules don't mention anything about putting metapsionic feats in powerstones at all. This got me to thinking....so I did some searching. And I came across a passage in the psionic feats section that I was previously not aware of. Effects of Metapsionic Feats on a Power: In all ways, a metapsionic power operates at its original power level, even though it costs additional power points. The modifications to a power made by a metapsionic feat have only their noted effect on the power. A manifester can’t use a metapsionic feat to alter a power being cast from a power stone, dorje, or other device. Manifesting a power modified by the Quicken Power feat does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Some metapsionic feats apply only to certain powers, as described in each specific feat entry. This may be the reason that there is no mention of metapsionic items...because it may not be allowed. Of course, the above passage could easily be read to mean that you, the manifester, cannot alter a power manifested from a powerstone with a metapsionic feat that you possess. As I see it, this leaves us with a decision that may require an Elder vote. 1) Take the above passage to mean that metapsionics cannot be applied to psionic items at all. 2) Assume that metapsionics can be added to psionic items (such as stones), and assume that the creator is including the metapsionic requirements into the stone at the time of creation, just as metamagic does. 3) Invent a houserule to govern this porton of psionics. I think I will wait for other Elder opinions on this one.
hogarth 08-20-06, 06:57 PM	As I see it, this leaves us with a decision that may require an Elder vote. 1) Take the above passage to mean that metapsionics cannot be applied to psionic items at all. 2) Assume that metapsionics can be added to psionic items (such as stones), and assume that the creator is including the metapsionic requirements into the stone at the time of creation, just as metamagic does. 3) Invent a houserule to govern this porton of psionics. I think I will wait for other Elder opinions on this one. Personally, I think the guiding principle on issues like this should be: "Would this interpretation of the rules be allowed in the majority of campaigns based on the SRD?" Otherwise the Core Coliseum just goes further and further down the road to a huge collection of house rules.
MindWandererB 08-20-06, 07:02 PM	This got me to thinking....so I did some searching. And I came across a passage in the psionic feats section that I was previously not aware of....To put this in the proper context, let me quote the PHB:A spellcaster can't use a metamagic feat to alter a spell being cast from a wand, scroll, or other device.So that takes us back to square one. I also found this in the XPH and SRD: With the right psionic item creation feat, you can store a metapsionic power in a power stone, psionic tattoo, or dorje. Level limits for psionic tattoos apply to the power’s higher metapsionic level. A character doesn’t need the appropriate metapsionic feat to activate an item in which a metapsionic power is stored, but does need the metapsionic feat to create such an item.
hogarth 08-20-06, 07:12 PM	To put this in the proper context, let me quote the PHB:So that takes us back to square one. I also found this in the XPH and SRD: Oh...I stand corrected then. It seems pretty clear now that it should be allowed.
NiQil 08-20-06, 08:08 PM	Oh...I stand corrected then. It seems pretty clear now that it should be allowed. Yep...it would appear that I had it right the first time...that's what I get for thinking to much about it.
orsono 08-20-06, 08:18 PM	I Need help yet again! - I need this before my next fight since I got the smack down from a Pitlord and he put me in Jail :-). want to make sure that the items below are correct +1 Dragonhide Breastplate 1750 gp ??? armor bonus +6 max dex 3 acp –3 asf 25% 20 ft. 30 lb. Dragonhide: Armorsmiths can work with the hides of dragons to produce armor or shields of masterwork quality. One dragon produces enough hide for a single suit of masterwork hide armor for a creature one size category smaller than the dragon. By selecting only choice scales and bits of hide, an armorsmith can produce one suit of masterwork banded mail for a creature two sizes smaller, one suit of masterwork half-plate for a creature three sizes smaller, or one masterwork breastplate or suit of full plate for a creature four sizes smaller. In each case, enough hide is available to produce a small or large masterwork shield in addition to the armor, provided that the dragon is Large or larger. Because dragonhide armor isn’t made of metal, druids can wear it without penalty. Dragonhide armor costs double what masterwork armor of that type ordinarily costs, but it takes no longer to make than ordinary armor of that type. Dragonhide has 10 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 10. And Shield, Heavy Darkwood 107 gp ??? Shield Bonus +2 acp –0 asf 15% 5 lb Darkwood: This rare magic wood is as hard as normal wood but very light. Any wooden or mostly wooden item (such as a bow, an arrow, or a spear) made from darkwood is considered a masterwork item and weighs only half as much as a normal wooden item of that type. Items not normally made of wood or only partially of wood (such as a battleaxe or a mace) either cannot be made from darkwood or do not gain any special benefit from being made of darkwood. The armor check penalty of a darkwood shield is lessened by 2 compared to an ordinary shield of its type. To determine the price of a darkwood item, use the original weight but add 10 gp per pound to the price of a masterwork version of that item. Darkwood has 10 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 5.
Zevox 08-20-06, 08:45 PM	*chuckles* Ironically enough, you managed to pick two items a couple of my characters have. Destra Stormwind wears a [Copper] +1 Dragonhide Breastplate, and Featylec Elendi has a Heavy Darkwood Shield (though his is +1 and Heartening, not just plain Darkwood anymore). The only errors in your summaries there are price. The +1 Dragonhide Brestplate would be 1,700 gp (not 1,750 - not sure where you got the extra 50 gp), and the Heavy Darkwood Shield would be 257 gp (not 107 - you forgot to include the 150 gp masterwork cost). As a side note, questions like that should typically be posted in the Tavern thread. Ask an Elder is for questions that require an answer from an Elder, not just anyone who knows (aka ones that are in dispute or very difficult to answer). Zevox
orsono 08-20-06, 09:51 PM	*chuckles* Ironically enough, you managed to pick two items a couple of my characters have. Destra Stormwind wears a [Copper] +1 Dragonhide Breastplate, and Featylec Elendi has a Heavy Darkwood Shield (though his is +1 and Heartening, not just plain Darkwood anymore). The only errors in your summaries there are price. The +1 Dragonhide Brestplate would be 1,700 gp (not 1,750 - not sure where you got the extra 50 gp), and the Heavy Darkwood Shield would be 257 gp (not 107 - you forgot to include the 150 gp masterwork cost). As a side note, questions like that should typically be posted in the Tavern thread. Ask an Elder is for questions that require an answer from an Elder, not just anyone who knows (aka ones that are in dispute or very difficult to answer). Zevox thanks Zevox! I been trying to fix my armor offence for like 2 hours and I just came to the conclusion that dragonhide is the way to go. AC seems preatty important around here. so I just desided to try and get it as high as posible. I will post on the correct place next time
Vathelokai 08-20-06, 11:49 PM	Didn't get an answer on Saffron's prison violation in the tavern, so I'm repeating it here... Can the mindlink power be placed in tatoo form? As a standard tattoo it might only effect the person activating it, and as a crawling tattoo it might only target the person that it 'attacks'. So can it be either or neither? The user of the psionic tattoo is both the manifester and the target; therefore, powers that target another creature cannot be stored in psionic tattoo form. Activation: A psionic tattoo produces its effect when touched by its wearer and willed to do so. When its wearer physically activates the tattoo, the wearer is the target of the power. Like a psionic tattoo, a crawling tattoo can be scribed only with a power of no higher than 3rd level that targets one or more creatures. Notice that the description of crawling tatoos and the description of tatoos in the Psionic items section directly contradict each other.
Macbrea 08-25-06, 10:39 AM	So, what was the decision about Dragons and the use of weapons? Reason for question: Lord Frost has a Psionic Special ability Fire Lash. It produces a Whip made of pure fire. Is he or is he not allowed to wield weapons?
Pittbull 08-25-06, 10:47 AM	So, what was the decision about Dragons and the use of weapons? Reason for question: Lord Frost has a Psionic Special ability Fire Lash. It produces a Whip made of pure fire. Is he or is he not allowed to wield weapons? I would say, he is able to wield such a special whip. .....Sauro, NiQil, Huan, King?
SauroGrenom 08-25-06, 01:12 PM	So, what was the decision about Dragons and the use of weapons? Reason for question: Lord Frost has a Psionic Special ability Fire Lash. It produces a Whip made of pure fire. Is he or is he not allowed to wield weapons? Well according to the general elder majority right now, the answer is no. Dragons cannot wield weapons. Although this clearly sucks for your character, the Fire lash is clearly a weapon. You can take feats in weapon focus and weapon specialization with the Fire Lash. It sounds like Pittbull would like to make this weapon an exception to the general prohibition of weapon use for dragons. I dissagree. We need to either let dragons wield weapons or to not allow dragons to wield weapons. One or the other. As I mentioned before, we cannot rely on logic unless we want to create a whole set of house rules. It's game mechanics that matters for this question. It is just this kind of question that leads me to suggest once again that the simple thing is for all claws to be considered claws for the purpose of weapon use. It is simple to make no distinction between various kinds of claws, and allow them all to use weapons. But that is just my opinion and I appear to be out numbered.
MindWandererB 08-25-06, 01:21 PM	Although I'm not an elder, let me contribute my two cents: the Fire Lash doesn't really have to be held by opposeable digits, per se, but just sort of grows out of the wielder's hand. I would think any creature, even one that obviously can't wield weapons, could wield a fire lash, as long as it has some sort of fore-appendage (claw, tentacle, whatever).
Stormwind 08-25-06, 01:25 PM	So that relevant discussions from the old boards are not lost ... Do spawned Shadows persist for the entire 3FC or are they only available for the single fight in which they were killed? This is a tough question. Clearly we don't have any CoCo rules that govern abilities like Creat Spawn right now. However I can at least think about how this ability will come into play in an arena battle in the 3FC. I see two possible outcomes. (1) If you use the ability on another character they become spawn for the remaining durration of that battle, but the Nimbus will clearly restore them at the end of the battle. (2) If you use the ability on the ally of another character, then they become spawn for the remaining durration of the 3FC of the "owning" character. Keeping track of this is clearly a confusing mess. Some spawn will be lost at various times. As another possibility is that the ability can be used to creat spawn allies that are simply like leadership "follower" allies. These creatures can be acquired by a mini-quest and can just be listed on you sheet as typical allies. I wouldn't make them like class allies because those are exempt from ECL limits and effects on rewards. Such allies won't level, and you cannot get them at higher levels than the standard shadows in the SRD, but that's what your race ability allows. I would like to know whether it is okay to Craft masterwork tools with a DC20 craft check. I agree with NiQil on this one. I was wondering if a grappler could use maneuvers such as "Throw Foe to the Ground" or "Toss Foe" when he has an enemy pinned. I couldn't find these maneuvers in the SRD, but they are in this article of Rules of The Game: All About Grappling (Part 3) I totally agree with NiQil. It would be cool to adopt those optional rules in CoCo, but it hasn't happened yet. How much does it cost a fully combat trained Elite Array Hippogriff? The rules are contradictory regarding elite array (the text says it would cost the double, but the cost listed is less than that), and doesn't mention trainning cost at all. On this, it is my understanding that the Elite Array increases base cost and then the training cost is not increased. Think of it as the difference between buying an adamantium greatsword+1 or a large size adamantium greatsword+1. The adamantium weapon costs 2x base cost for being large, but it does not cost 2x for the enchantment. The "labor" cost is the same, but base cost is doubled. Now as to the second question... It does strike me as odd that the cost of the elite ability array is only 2x the cost of the griffon egg. This appears to contradict the text. Also the cost of an elite pseudodragon is only 5000gp extra when an egg cost 10,000gp. This is clearly not in agreement with the text in any way. I'm inclined to say that the text is to be largely ignored in this case. An elite adult psueododragon for 25,000gp is a hefty price to pay for a CR3 ally. I think that Cat has probably decided the cost of some of the allies is too high and modified the table at some point and not edited the text to reflect it. So for your Elite Combat Trained Griffon I would say you must pay 12,000gp. (7000gp adult + 1500gp training + 3500gp elite) the price on a Large composite bow. By my calculations... A large composite longbow +3 should cost 500gp (add another 300 if you make it masterwork). The "base cost" does not include the increased cost for masterwork (check the FAQ on this one for mithral barding). Simularly it should not include the increased cost for a higher Str bonus. The base cost is the cost listed on the table adjacent to the weapon entry. Large size will only modify the base cost and the cost due to exotic materials (mithral or adamantium or deep crystal or others). Large size does not modify the additional cost of MW status or the additional cost of enchantments. Simularly it does not modify the increased cost due to higher strength bonus on a composite weapon. I found the following text above the main table of weapon prices and damage and such in the SRD. Notice how it states that only the listed price is doubled. Additional costs due to various modification to the weapons are not a part of the "listed price" and thus should not be doubled for large weapons. Cost: This value is the weapon’s cost in gold pieces (gp) or silver pieces (sp). The cost includes miscellaneous gear that goes with the weapon. This cost is the same for a Small or Medium version of the weapon. A Large version costs twice the listed price. Dragons have this entry in the Draconomicon and although we're core only, we're not oblivious to what clarifications WotC writes in an official souce just because it didn't fit into the core books. Were it for that alone, I'd say no weapons. (Un)fortunately, we also have the fact that dragons can cast spells with their clumsy claws. Okay, now the next question is 'how complicated are the finger patterns for casting a spell'. This all goes way too far into the metaphysical fantasy sector where real-life logic fails. I'm inclined to believe a claw is a claw is a claw. Although the Draconomicon may (I don't have the book) make a distinction between various kinds of claws (hand like or hoof like), such a rule is unreasonably complicated. It increases complications for us, but it does not drasticially alter balance. To allow claws to function for spell casting and wand use but not weapons is a bit hard to understand for some weapons. A club should be a simple weapon to wield. However a bow does require a greater degree of manual dexterity. A search for a reasonable solution is bound to require strange rules. The simplest thing to do is to just drop the issue, and consider all claws to be claws and thus equivalent to hands with regard to weapon use. Nowhere does it say that only divine spells can be converted to spontaneous cure spells. So, Can a mystic thurge (or any multi class cleric) 'loose' arcane spells to convert them to cure spells? Again NiQil has it pegged. Even though a Cleric3 Wizard 3 is considered a cleric, only his clerical spells can be used for spontanious casting. The spontanious casting class feature only applies to the spell acquired by the class in question. So a Cleric/Druid could not use Druid spells to spontaniously cast healing magic. While I don't necessarily think I was wrong about the price issue on the large composite longbow, I am going to reverse myself here and state that Sauro and Pittbull have it correct. Enough has been brought to light here to make me think that maybe the way I have been interpreting it has been a houserule in my home games instituted by our DM. So I'll go along with the listed price as being the only thing that is doubled. Didn't get an answer on Saffron's prison violation in the tavern, so I'm repeating it here... Can the mindlink power be placed in tatoo form? As a standard tattoo it might only effect the person activating it, and as a crawling tattoo it might only target the person that it 'attacks'. So can it be either or neither? Sigh... This is the same section of poorly written psionics rules again. Simular questions stemming from this same section of the rules has come up time and time again. Firstly crawling tattoo's are not "Psionic Tattoos". They are "Universal Items" and they are crafted with the Craft Universal Items feat. They are listed in the Universal Items section of the SRD. So rules about what Psionic Tattoo's can do and Crawling Tattoo's can do should not be compared to eachother any more than the rules about what wands can do should be compared to what powerstoring weapons can do. So Mindlink can be placed in a psionic tattoo, but it is pointless to do so. As to whether mindlink can be placed in a crawling tattoo, the rules clearly allow it to be done. Mindlink is a targeted power of 3rd level or less without any xp component, it is not mindeffectin(compusion) and it does not require concentration. But the rules are not clear on who counts as the "manifester" when a crawling tattoo is used. I'd say sure go for it, because I don't think allowing it is game breaking by any streatch of the imagination. This is simular to a crawling tattoo of Energy Retort. Who counts as the manifester and who is the target? There are only a few cases where confusion could take place. I suggest that we simply allow these cases to function as would be typical if the power were manifest by the character that uses the crawling tattoo. Dear Elders, We still need a decision on what creatures can use melee/ranged weapons. This problem arose in the Zero vs. Tezca fight in which I wondered if dragons are able to use such weapons with their claws. I thought they could not while MindWandererB obviously thought they could. Core sources do not express themselves one way or the other, however, in the particular case of dragons, the Draconomicon says they cannot. Evidence: 1. Creatures that are described as using a melee weapons in their entry This seems obvious, creatures that are able to use a melee weapons can use any. 2. Creatures of the humanoid, monstrous humanoid and giant type These creatures are all humanoid in shape, and should therefor be able to use any weapon. This includes creatures that were originally humanoid but were templated or changed type (a vampire for example) 3. Creatures with proficiency One could claim creature types that are proficient in weapons should be able to use any weapon, and those who are only proficient in natural weapons cannot. Unortunately many creature types have proficiency as a blanket statement. It seems obvious to me that although a Bebelith has martial weapon proficiency, it cannot wield a longsword or use a bow. Animals are only proficient in natural weapons. Does that mean that Apes cannot use any weapon? Creatures that 'look like they could' I think this is the rule o thumb that is now used the most. We take a look at a picture, imagine how the creature would look with a weapon, and decide if it is possible. Biggest problem is that it is rather subjective. I can imagine a dragon wielding a spear with those bird-like dragon claws, I cannot imagine it nocking arrows and shooting a bow (which is why I asked the question concerning Zero) I don't know if it is possible to make a general rule, or that it should be decided on a case-by-case basis. Rules support is simply lacking. Hi, this is my first try here at the core coliseum, and i hope to finish my character in time for the next deadline, still i have some questions 1) Psicristal are not gained trought a class feature, but thanks to a feat, in wich category do they fall? 2) Psicristal abilities are depending upon it's master ML, but it's HP are 1/2 of the master's total. The psicristal HD are equal to the master's total HD or to his HD in manifesting classes? 3) Do psicristals gain skills, increase in BAB acquire feats, etc for gaining HD as the master gains level? i didn't find anithing against it. 4) Do i need to complete a quest to acquire a psicristal? 5) The max caster level of a bought scroll seems to be your caster level +2, if this is correct how can rogues or other UMD classes ever use scrolls above CL2? Hi, this is my first try here at the core coliseum, and i hope to finish my character in time for the next deadline, still i have some questions 1) Psicristal are not gained trought a class feature, but thanks to a feat, in wich category do they fall? They are considered a class ally, so they don't effect rewards or max allies per fight 2) Psicristal abilities are depending upon it's master ML, but it's HP are 1/2 of the master's total. The psicristal HD are equal to the master's total HD or to his HD in manifesting classes? As per the total HD 3) Do psicristals gain skills, increase in BAB acquire feats, etc for gaining HD as the master gains level? i didn't find anithing against it. Psicrystals are treated more like a druids animal companion. They gain their own feats based on their own HD (which is based on the master). They get the skill ranks of their master plus their racial skills ranks.Saving Throws: A psicrystal uses its owner’s base saving throw bonuses and ability modifiers on saves, though it doesn’t enjoy any other bonuses its owner might have (from magic items or feats, for example). Abilities: When its self-propulsion ability is not activated, a psicrystal has no Strength score and no Dexterity score. Skills: A psicrystal has the same skill ranks as its owner, except that it has a minimum of 4 ranks each in Spot, Listen, Move Silently, and Search. (Even if its owner has no ranks in these skills, a psicrystal has 4 ranks in each.) A psicrystal uses its own ability modifiers on skill checks. 4) Do i need to complete a quest to acquire a psicristal? No. It's considered a class ally that you get automaticly when you take the feat. 5) The max caster level of a bought scroll seems to be your caster level +2, if this is correct how can rogues or other UMD classes ever use scrolls above CL2? Its acually ECL+2 (character lv+Lv.adjustments+2). If you have more Psi related questions, a lot of them are already answered in the 'GUild- PSI Consortium.' post 12. You can also just post in the PSI and ask questions (remember to gray out your post unless it's in character). SauroGrenom is our resident psionics expert and is a helpful guy to boot. Its acually ECL+2 (character lv+Lv.adjustments+2). Not really. You are limited on CL+2 and ECL. Examples: A rogue 3 can have scrolls up to CL 3 A Cleric 6 with magic domain can have divine scrolls up to CL 6 and arcane scrolls up to CL 5. Actually the rule is http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6466659&postcount=11 Scrolls and Powerstones are furthermore capped to your CL+2. Potions and Tattoos use the normal D&D rules (Potions only those on list and Tattoos min ML; Blackmarket circumvents that). In case of different CLs (for example, +1 CL for Good spells due to the Good Domain) you can buy expendables according to your higher CL for the affected spells. Only permanent increases count (so you don't benefit from a bead of karma for expendable purposes). In case of Use Magic Device, you use your total skill value-10 to determine the CL (eg UMD+13 = CL 3). So for example Ten vermond a 4th lvl character with maxed umd has http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8958653 With his UMD of 10 would be (10-10 = 0= cl 0 +2 = cl 2 so he is only allowed to buy 1st level scrolls. As I mentioned in my post a few back, I'm inclined to consider all claws to be equal. A claw is a claw is a claw. Realy the issue for your protest with a bow is that the muscles of the shoulder and arm as well as the structure of the elbow are not correctly arranged on a dragon to allow the kind of motion required for drawing a bow. Realisticially that wouldn't be a problem for any race of intelligent creatures. They would simply design new weapons that are usefull given the kind of range of motion allowed by their bodies. But D20 rules doesn't allow that. Also there are logical limitations we can try to impose. For example we could allow a claw to wield a club but not a bow. But again this is complicated and not necessarily allowed by the rules. So the rules in many ways abandon logic and try to stick with logic in some ways as well. If we try to make any additional rules about what qualifies as a claw that is prehensile and what is a claw that cannot use weapons, then we are making totally new rules. I'm reluctant to do that, so I'd rather just consider all claws to be able to wield weapons. If you'd ask me, I'd say, after rethinking the whole stuff: Dragon can't use bows with their claws. So the rules in many ways abandon logic and try to stick with logic in some ways as well. If we try to make any additional rules about what qualifies as a claw that is prehensile and what is a claw that cannot use weapons, then we are making totally new rules. I'm reluctant to do that, so I'd rather just consider all claws to be able to wield weapons. Thank you for answering (you too Pittbull) Any rule (or ruling) is fine with me. Your rule means, for example, that Tezca in leopard shape can shoot bows and wield weapons just as well as in human or hybrid form. A claw is a claw is a claw in that case as well. And it will result in spiked-chain wielding Griffons. And what are the rules about hooves and paws? Can you wield weapons with those (since there are no rules about that either)? And if not, is your allowing of claws, but not paws to hooves, not an arbitrary ruling? And how do we determine if someone has a hand, claw or paw? Do 'talons' count as claws in your terminology? It's not a simple question, unfortunately.. I'd just like to remind our esteemed Elders not to limit this discussion to dragons, but rather to make a more all-inclusive rule. Lycanthropes, which are fairly common here, are also affected (and I'm considering one myself, and I'd very much like to know whether a wereape in ape form can use weapons). With a little bit of thought, I'm thinking this might be an appropriate rule: bipeds with "arms" can use weapons, quadrupeds (or hexapods, or whatever) cannot. The logic here is twofold: 1) Bipeds walk on their hind legs because they often use their forelimbs for something else. For birds that's flying, and they certainly lack anything that could be used to hold a weapon. For everything other than birds, the forelimbs are generaly used for other things, typically tool use. The only exception I can think of is some dinosaurs, but then we don't actually know what dinosaurs used their forelimbs for. 2) With the exception of certain dinosaurs, all the creatures I can think of that are bipedal (and wingless) seem appropriate tool-users. I might be missing something, of course. Yes, I know I'm arguing against myself here. But Zero is such a fan-un-favorite that retiring him wouldn't be all that bad. With a little bit of thought, I'm thinking this might be an appropriate rule: bipeds with "arms" can use weapons, quadrupeds (or hexapods, or whatever) cannot. The logic here is twofold: 1) Bipeds walk on their hind legs because they often use their forelimbs for something else. For birds that's flying, and they certainly lack anything that could be used to hold a weapon. For everything other than birds, the forelimbs are generaly used for other things, typically tool use. The only exception I can think of is some dinosaurs, but then we don't actually know what dinosaurs used their forelimbs for. 2) With the exception of certain dinosaurs, all the creatures I can think of that are bipedal (and wingless) seem appropriate tool-users. I might be missing something, of course. The problem with your proposed rule is the phrase: 'bipeds with "arms"'. (I would extend it to just be 'creatures with "hands"' so that centaurs and araneas don't feel left out.) How do we know what are reasonable arms/hands and which aren't? Personally, I don't think a shambling mound should be able to use a hand crossbow (say) but it does have "two huge, armlike appendages". Personally, I think the following types of creatures are obviously tool-users: 1) humanoids, giants, fey and monstrous humanoids without claw attacks, 2) humanoids, giants, fey and monstrous humanoids with claw attacks which are specifically mentioned as using weapons (e.g. troglodytes, lizardfolk), 3) any creature mentioned as using weapons in its monster entry (e.g. lycanthropes in hybrid shape, athachs, ghosts, some outsiders) 4) intelligent humanoid undead 5) intelligent primates (e.g. a druid wildshaped into an ape) But even with that (conservative) definition, there are some glaring omissions: what about chokers? or ettercaps? or araneas? Unfortunately, in those cases pretty much all we have to go on are the pictures in the Monster Manual or what it might say in some non-Core book. Time Hop represents an interesting problem. If manifest by a psion of ML 10 or better it can cause a character to hop forward in time by 10 rounds. Does this cause the victim to automaticially loose the Arena match? The character does leave the arena for 10 rounds, because they are not in the arena for that time. But they don't go anyplace else. This is kind of a philosophical question, but we don't realy need to get into all that. All we realy need to decide is if time hop causes the target to "leave the arena" with respect to that restriction on Arena combat. What do you think? Time Hop represents an interesting problem. If manifest by a psion of ML 10 or better it can cause a character to hop forward in time by 10 rounds. Does this cause the victim to automaticially loose the Arena match? The character does leave the arena for 10 rounds, because they are not in the arena for that time. But they don't go anyplace else. This is kind of a philosophical question, but we don't realy need to get into all that. All we realy need to decide is if time hop causes the target to "leave the arena" with respect to that restriction on Arena combat. What do you think? They never actually leave the arena. The opponent can still make a Will save each round to break out of the Time Hop early. If anything, look at it as a psionic Hold Person, except that you can't do anything to the target while it's in effect. It should only be considered as counting against someone when the target of the power willingly fails the Will save each round as a delaying tactic. Edit: (Time HOP, not Time Stop) I feel and would vote that dragons can use weapons. They can manipulate magical items like scrolls, and make complex spell motions. Why can't they fire arrows? This would lead to possibly allowing claw-using creatures the opportunity to use weapons, but to limit dragons would seem silly. I know my opinion doesn't count for anything in here (not in the sense that you guys don't care what I think, but in the sense that I'm no elder), but I would like to chime in on the claws-as-hands issue. First reason: Looking in the MM, pg. 308 at the Dragon Type entry, I see that a dragon is "Proficient with its natural weapons only unless humanoid in form (or capable of assuming humanoid form), in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry." Now (I'm gonna pick on Zero) I understand that taking a class level nets Zero proficiency with bows. Still, I can't help but look at that description and think to myself, "The designers must view dragon claws as capable of manipulation, but not capable of fine manipulation, because the specifically say that dragons are non-proficient with anything but its natural weapons unless humanoid in form. That means that a dragon COULD pick up a sword/bow/manufactured weapon and use it, but it would continually take a -4 penalty for using it. Why? Dragons are super-intelligent, strong, and not lacking in Dexterity (a 10 ain't bad). So why can't they use a club? Even a commoner can use a club. I say it's because their claws get in the way. They can serve as hands, but they'd have trouble threading a dragon-sized needle just like you'd have trouble threading a human-sized needle if you had sharpened-steel fingernail extensions glued onto all of your fingers and thumbs. All the training in the world won't help you overcome those four-inch daggers creating the natural difficulty inherent in the act of picking up a needle off of a flat surface with parts of yourself that you can't feel with and that can't bend. Second reason: Why are we allowing dragons to advance by class level at all, anyways? The monster manual clearly allows them to advance only by HD. The level adjustment entry is to give the DM and player knowledge of the relative strength of the monster if it is played as a character (or more likely, as an NPC). There's not even a "Dragons as Characters" section in their entry. Maybe I missed an elder ruling. That's my two cents. Thanks for reading. TM I think i finished my character, but since i'm new here i'm almost sure there are some errors on the sheet, (even if i checked it 5 times), so could someone please take a look and point me any mistakes, so i can correct them before next pairings? Here is the link Thank you for your time I feel and would vote that dragons can use weapons. They can manipulate magical items like scrolls, and make complex spell motions. Why can't they fire arrows? This would lead to possibly allowing claw-using creatures the opportunity to use weapons, but to limit dragons would seem silly. For those that have not seen the previous quote, once again from the Draconomicon, p. 6: "A dragon's our feet resemble those of a great bird. Each foot has three or four clawed toes facing forward (the number varies, even among dragons of the same kind), plus an additional toe, also with a claw, set farther back on the foot and facing slightly inward toward's the dragon's body like a human's thumb. Although the dragon's front feet are not truly prehensile, a dragon can grasp objects with its front feet, provided they are not too small. This grip is not precise enough for tool use, writing or wielding a weapon, but a dragon can hold and carry objects. A dragon is also capable of wielding magical devices, such as wands, and can complete somatic components required for the spells it can cast (see Spellcasting below). Some dragons are adroit enough to seize prey in their ront claws and carry it aloft. A dragon can use the "thumbs" o its rear feet to grasp as well, but the grip is less precise than that of the front feet. Another quote from Draconomicon (p. 24): "A dragon usually lacks weapon proficiencies and fully prehensile appendages, so it cannot employ weapons. If a dragon assumes a form with prehensile appendages, it can wield weapons in that form, but remains non-proficient unless it has lvels in a class or feat that makes it proficient (as noted earlier, a dragon with the alternate form racial ability is proficient with all simple weapons)." Also, I haven't see a single WoTC source with a Dragon that wields weapons. To me that indicates WoTC thinks dragons cannot and should not wield weapons, even though the Core rules are not explicit in saying so. I think i finished my character, but since i'm new here i'm almost sure there are some errors on the sheet, (even if i checked it 5 times), so could someone please take a look and point me any mistakes, so i can correct them before next pairings? Here is the link Thank you for your time After a quick view, it looks nice to me. You need not to post every single skill. That makes the sheet shorter. Please post such requests in the tavern. Time Hop represents an interesting problem. If manifest by a psion of ML 10 or better it can cause a character to hop forward in time by 10 rounds. Does this cause the victim to automaticially loose the Arena match? The character does leave the arena for 10 rounds, because they are not in the arena for that time. But they don't go anyplace else. This is kind of a philosophical question, but we don't realy need to get into all that. All we realy need to decide is if time hop causes the target to "leave the arena" with respect to that restriction on Arena combat. What do you think?No, I would say this is not a violation, and therefor not automatic loss. Time Hop: I'd say this power is not subject to violation for the only reason it exists is that it helps to skip your opponent's buffs. Without it, it would be useless and actually a harmful power from ML 10 on. Claw Discussion: I have to repeat myself. It doesn't depend on the "Claw" for this is just the method of damaging an opponent and has little to do with wielding something in the apendage this claw is attached to. These are two different things. We'll base the decision on wether someone can employ weapons or other complex devices on wether it has digits or not. A half-fiend, yes. A yeth hound, no. Dragon, I'm 99% for no. The 1% is just because there's a character out there using a bow but IMO we shouldn't set a precedence. If it's unclear wether a creature can wield weapons, we make a quick individual decision; shouldn't happen too often. We'll base the decision on wether someone can employ weapons or other complex devices on wether it has digits or not. A half-fiend, yes. A yeth hound, no. Dragon, I'm 99% for no. The 1% is just because there's a character out there using a bow but IMO we shouldn't set a precedence.Your rule contradicts itself, because a Yeth Hound has digits, at least, the image in the Monster Manual shows it has digits, and it even has opposable thumb on its front legs. The problem is, the core sources don't describe creatures as having digits or not, so any decision that uses digits as a criterium will be arbitrary and based on ogling images (which we all know is not a good indication of judging abilities). Furthermore, it is not a question of having digits (which a dragon certainly has), but of having fully prehensile digits. Best guideline I have seen until now was proposed by MindWandererB: bipeds are assumed to have prehensile digits (because they evolved into tool-users), other creatures are presumed not to have prehensile digits. We can make a few exceptions for creatures like Centaurs (who obviously have prehensile digits), but it seems a fair and clear rule overall. It is far easier to decide which creatures are bipeds, and which creatures are not, than judging if they have prehensile digits. Yes, Mindwanderers proposal is the best option. I think we should use this as a guide-line. If there is a certain question, we can decide from case to case. I think i finished my character, but since i'm new here i'm almost sure there are some errors on the sheet, (even if i checked it 5 times), so could someone please take a look and point me any mistakes, so i can correct them before next pairings? Here is the link Thank you for your timeEDIT: Urr... whoops. I looked at the post and thought I was in the tavern. I can delete this if anyone wants, or I can move it to the tavern. First, this thread is usually for difficult questions or for rulings. For stuff like character sheet lookovers, check out the Tavern . It mostly looks good. Although, if you want to go into Slayer, why not just take a level of Ranger instead of a level of Fighter? You get Track as a bonus feat, so you can take a "fighter feat" with your normal feat instead of taking track as a normal feat and something with your fighter feat. You also get more skill points and the ability to use a Wand of Cure Light Wounds. Granted, you lose the ability to wear heavy armor, which hurts a lot less when you get more gold and can invest in a Mithral Full Plate (medium). You also don't have to list every skill. Just list the ones you have skill ranks in, along with Spot, Listen, Hide, and Move Silently. Might help clear some clutter . By the way, there is no power called Prescience (Defensive). I think you meant Offensive? EDIT2: Oh yea, save a hardcopy of the thing to word (use the edit button, copy/paste all the BB code). There will be a probably failed attempt to upgrade the boards tomorrow, and your post probably won't be saved. Yes, Mindwanderers proposal is the best option. I think we should use this as a guide-line. If there is a certain question, we can decide from case to case.f we are going to have the claw ruling, I propose we do something a bit more precise than Mindwanderer's proposal. Hogarth has a good point in that some non bipedal creatures also are obviously tool users. Driders and Centaurs come to mind. Also the Avoral is a winged creature with "hands". So if we realy want to govern this with a house rule, then we need to be complete in our definition. Generally I'll suggest that a creature's weight bearing limbs are incapable of wielding a weapon unless the creature description says otherwise. Also tentacles, fins, wings and tails are incapable of weilding weapons unless the creature description says otherwise. This means a griffon will be incabable of weilding a weapon. Also a dragon is incapable of weilding a weapon. But a centaur can wield weapons. A dire bat cannot wield weapons because all its limbs are weight bearing. "Weight-bearing" is what I was attempting to get at, forgetting about centaurs and driders and the like. There are exceptions--Avorals and Dire Bats, for instance, have the same general structure--but in this case, the description of avorals specifically calls out their ability to use weapons in their wings. The only things I can think of that aren't necessarily covered by this are dinosaurs: deinonychi, megaraptors, and tyrranosauri. Unfortunately, paleontologists haven't been able to figure out what the function of those forelimbs was. They may have been for attacking, or they may have been vestigial wings from an earlier (or later) stage of evolution. Since they do have large claws, and probably weak grips, they're probably not useful to wield weapons, although they might be able to hold items like a dragon can. How about this? <picture snipped> Or this? <picture snipped> Or this? <picture snipped> Or this? <picture snipped> I'd say "no" in each case (except maybe the umber hulk), but I don't have a better argument than "I know a tool-user when I see one". Unfortunately, I think a case-by-case list of rulings may be the lesser of two evils. Hi, Currently there are two, slightly differing rulings (from pittbull and sauro) regarding Shadows. I have compiled the responses from here, here, here, and here. I have tried to make the compilation consistent and simple. Could Sauro and/or Pittbull (or any other elders) confirm or correct the following. Regarding the Create spawn ability: If the spawn is quested for, then it is treated as a normal class ally of the character, however the CA-cap (maxCA=ECL-2) still applies so it is not possible to have an infinite number of spawns. If the create spawn ability is used on another humanoid character, they become spawn for the remaining duration of the battle, but at the end of the battle the NimbusTM will restore them. If the create spawn ability is used on a humanoid NPC (another character's ally or a miniquest combatant), then they become spawn for the remaining duration of the 3FC. This implies the following: Permanent spawn allies (that are quested for), are ECL6(3HD+3LA) and so cannot be bought into the arena until the character is ECL8. A second permanent spawn ally could be bought in when the character is ECL14, and a third at ECL20. Temporary spawn allies (that are created from humanoid NPC's in an earlier fight in the 3FC) could be bought into the arena at the same levels as above (instead of a permanent ally). Of course the Forgery skill could allow for more such allies to be bought into the arena at a lower level as with any other ally. Note: The explanation of the create spawn ability above would also apply to other creatures with this ability (such as vampires). Point taken. I think we'll just have to deal with it on a case-by-case basis. Since the vast majority of PCs are humanoids, and the vast majority of allies lack class levels, it shouldn't come up very often. So I'll retire Zero, since the consensus (from myself included) is that dragons can't use weapons. Since I'm planning on doing a lycanthrope as soon as I can afford one, I would like rulings on two of my options: Apes: They can use anything, right? (Except things that require speech.) Armor, weapons, all good? Dire Bats: Okay, obviously no weapons, or anything hand-held, and no armor either. But is there any way it can carry a container of any sort? A "backpack" worn around the chest, or a harness that crosses around where the wings would be? I just want to be able to become a werebat without dumping all my gear on the floor. Heck, most PCs here don't even buy backpacks.... This implies the following: Permanent spawn allies (that are quested for), are ECL6(3HD+3LA) and so cannot be bought into the arena until the character is ECL8. A second permanent spawn ally could be bought in when the character is ECL14, and a third at ECL20.My understanding is that a shadow spawn with the exact stats as seen in the Monster Manual would be treated as a CR 3 ally, not an ECL 6 ally (the same as a shadow Diplomacy ally). So you could bring one in at ECL 7 (because the CR must be four less than your ECL), two in at ECL 8, three in at ECL 11, etc. If you chose a shadow as an ally via the Leadership feat, then you would treat it as ECL6 (but then you would be able to assign feats, equipment, stat points, etc. as you see fit and it would advance in experience as you do). Re: Shadow Spawn. I believe those would fall under the same ally rule as Cleric's control/animate undead abilities, namely this one: Spells, Powers, and Abilities: Certain spells and powers (Planar Ally, Animate Dead, Dominate, etc) or Abilities (Rebuke undead, etc) allow a character to summon, create allies, or control allies. These allies will always require a share of your XP and gold, and on top of that the regular xp and/or gold price for acquiring them in the first place, if any. In case of the Animate Dead spell you need to acquire a corpse first (which is normally be tied to a Quest or Miniquest unless you can get the body in another way, eg. buy a horse and kill it). All these allies use the abilities presented in their entry, modified by whatever the spell does (eg. +2 dex for skeletons). The Create Spawn ability of some undead creates minions who will use the unmodified MM entry and its CR to determine the CA. Special: a spellcaster may create a Homunkulus. Now, it doesn't say anything about what happens when the ability is activated in a fight as part of the 3FC, but given that all allies not otherwise specified in thier entry require a quest to acquire, I believe we can get the following out of this: 1. Shadow Spawns require a quest to obtain. 2. Shadow Spawns use CR to determine thier CA. 3. Shadow Spawns are not treated as class allies for the purposes of xp/gp penalties. Zevox My understanding is that a shadow spawn with the exact stats as seen in the Monster Manual would be treated as a CR 3 ally, not an ECL 6 ally (the same as a shadow Diplomacy ally). So you could bring one in at ECL 7 (because the CR must be four less than your ECL), two in at ECL 8, three in at ECL 11, etc. If you chose a shadow as an ally via the Leadership feat, then you would treat it as ECL6 (but then you would be able to assign feats, equipment, stat points, etc. as you see fit and it would advance in experience as you do). Actually we have the following: - we are using LA's for several undead creatures (see Gladius rules here), and Shadows have a +3LA - create spawn is considered a class ability, thus since Shadows have an LA, they should be treated as ECL6 to be consistent (see Gladius rules here). Naturally I am happy if they are considered CR3, rather than ECL6 since then my Shadow character get's to use allies earlier. Perhaps an elder would comment on this too? If they are the standart shadows from the SRD, I would consider them CR3. @Zevox: Your quote actually refers to spells, powers and abilities, however Pittbull ruled that spawn created with the create spawn racial ability should be treated as class allies. Consider that otherwise you could use your argument to rule that all class allies are not treated as class allies for the purposes of xp/gp penalties which is patently ridiculous (since a druid and a paladin 'summon' their companions/mounts). However I do agree with the first two points that you made. Yes, I ruled this way, because I believe, it is like a class ability since it is a racial ability. But I'd to hear the other elders too, I'm not the absolute rule-lawyer. Re: dragon claws and weapons I want to throw something out here that I don't think any of you have considered yet. I mentioned it when this issue first came up, but it appears to have been forgotten. The Dragon Disciple prestige class changes it's characters hands into claws during progression in the class. Are now saying that since this character has dragon claws, it loses the ability to wield weapons? It has the same claws as dragons do, so ruling that dragons cannot wield weapons would also include this prestige class. This would effectively gut the effectiveness of any character taking this class. Do we really want to do that? The Dragon Disciple prestige class changes it's characters hands into claws during progression in the class. Are now saying that since this character has dragon claws, it loses the ability to wield weapons? It has the same claws as dragons do, so ruling that dragons cannot wield weapons would also include this prestige class. This would effectively gut the effectiveness of any character taking this class. Do we really want to do that? I don't agree that the DD "has the same claws as dragons do." It has the same claws that half-dragons do. Which are Dragon (augmented humanoid). Not the same thing at all, IMO. @Zevox: Your quote actually refers to spells, powers and abilities, however Pittbull ruled that spawn created with the create spawn racial ability should be treated as class allies. Aye, but consider that Create Spawn is indeed a racial special ability rather than a class feature, and is also specifically mentioned in that entry. This would mean it definitely falls under those rules. As for Pittbull's ruling, I'd guess he missed that entry in the already-existing rules when he made it. Consider that otherwise you could use your argument to rule that all class allies are not treated as class allies for the purposes of xp/gp penalties which is patently ridiculous (since a druid and a paladin 'summon' their companions/mounts). Not at all, since we do have other specific rules for class allies, and they therefore could not be considered to fall under that clause of the ally rules. Zevox The Dragon Disciple prestige class changes it's characters hands into claws during progression in the class. Are now saying that since this character has dragon claws, it loses the ability to wield weapons? It has the same claws as dragons do, so ruling that dragons cannot wield weapons would also include this prestige class.A dragon disciple turns into a half-dragon, not a dragon. Half-dragon, half-humanoids can use manufactured weapons (see the example in the Monster Manual). edit: MWB beat me to it. So, was it determined that Dragons may not wield weapons? If so, I need to remove the use of fire lash from Lord Frost. As a supernatural whip formed of fire seems to not be wieldable by a dragon by that statement. If the spawn is quested for, then it is treated as a normal class ally of the character, however the CA-cap (maxCA=ECL-2) still applies so it is not possible to have an infinite number of spawns. If the create spawn ability is used on another humanoid character, they become spawn for the remaining duration of the battle, but at the end of the battle the NimbusTM will restore them. If the create spawn ability is used on a humanoid NPC (another character's ally or a miniquest combatant), then they become spawn for the remaining duration of the 3FC.I have a difference of opinion here: If the spawn is quested for, then it is treated as a feat ally of the character simular to a leadership follower. (Use CR of the creature to determine the CA.) If the create spawn ability is used on another humanoid character, they become spawn for the remaining duration of the battle, but at the end of the battle the NimbusTM will restore them. If the create spawn ability is used on a humanoid NPC (another character's ally or a miniquest combatant), then they become spawn for the remaining duration of the victim's 3FC. This last rule is required by the nature of when the Nimbus acts on allies. For example say that Valor the Paladin has a cohort named Krunk. Your Shadow slays Valor in the battle and he immedately rises as a Shadow Spawn. The two of you together slay the poor out numbered Krunk. So now you have 2 Shadow Spawn. At the end of the battle the Nimbus restores Valor. But since Krunk is an ally he is not restored untill the end of Valor's 3FC. So Krunk remains Shadow Spawn untill the end of Valor's 3FC. Who knows how long that will be. Could be 1 week, could be 0 weeks could be 3 months if Valor is inactive. That's the way a strict reading of our rules would lead us. However that's clearly a mess to try and keep track of. So I think we should just ignore it and simply say that all creatures that fall in Arena battle are not Spawn in further battles. I suggest that Create Spawn will only allow you a new way to gain allies without taking the leadership feat. You can have as many as allowed by your MaxCA, you cannot customize them, and you can gain additional allies in the course of a battle, but they cannot be kept with you unless you acquire them with a MQ. Also these allies will effect your rewards. Aye, but consider that Create Spawn is indeed a racial special ability rather than a class feature, and is also specifically mentioned in that entry. This would mean it definitely falls under those rules. As for Pittbull's ruling, I'd guess he missed that entry in the already-existing rules when he made it. Zevox I missed this existing rule. ...
Stormwind 08-25-06, 01:26 PM	First, many thanks to Pittbull, Sauro, and Zevox for discussion and rulings on this matter. If the create spawn ability is used on a humanoid NPC (another character's ally or a miniquest combatant), then they become spawn for the remaining duration of the victim's 3FC. <snip> However that's clearly a mess to try and keep track of. So I think we should just ignore it and simply say that all creatures that fall in Arena battle are not Spawn in further battles. I'm not overly concerned with the persistance of 'temporary' spawn for the 3FC since this is most likely to be something that will never arise due to the fact that a character is more likely to acquire permanent spawn and due to the maxCA limit you can't have both. However, I do think that we should maintain a fairly strict reading of the rules in the case that it ever does happen. Given the fact that the timing of Arena fights is 'strange', I maintain that it is simpler and more consistent with existing rules (for example NPC spellcasting as it applies to the 3FC) to say that 'temporary' spawn remain for the duration of the character's 3FC. However, like I said, it's not a big thing. <snip> I suggest that Create Spawn will only allow you a new way to gain allies without taking the leadership feat. You can have as many as allowed by your MaxCA, you cannot customize them, and you can gain additional allies in the course of a battle, but they cannot be kept with you unless you acquire them with a MQ. Also these allies will effect your rewards. One last point here just to clarify things. Consider the following: - A shadow character prebuffs with a shadow ally. The ally affects rewards normally. - A shadow character fights two humanoids in the arena. The shadow character kills one humanoid and a shadow spawn is created. The shadow character and the spawn kill the other humanoid. A second spawn is created. These two 'temporary allies' should not affect rewards. The reasoning for this is very simple. If a Shadow character kills a humanoid, a spawn is automatically created. It is not a choice, it happens every time. Could an Elder please confirm this last point. Thanks. Given the fact that the timing of Arena fights is 'strange', I maintain that it is simpler and more consistent with existing rules (for example NPC spellcasting as it applies to the 3FC) to say that 'temporary' spawn remain for the duration of the character's 3FC. However, like I said, it's not a big thing. Personally, I think spawns shouldn't remain beyond the fight at all. Next thing you know people start asking to have charmed or animated opponents remain. The general rule is that nothing what you do and affects your opponents (and his equipment/allies) carries over to your (or anyone's) next fight. If you use polymorph any object on your opponent's armor, turn it into a sword and then grab that sword and beat him to death with it, there is no way that you get to keep that sword beyond the fight itself. It doesn't matter if it is a permanent effect or not, or if your opponent is fighting his next fight before you or not. The last point about the rewards seems pretty obvious as well. Charm monster should not affect rewards, create spawn the same. - A shadow character fights two humanoids in the arena. The shadow character kills one humanoid and a shadow spawn is created. The shadow character and the spawn kill the other humanoid. A second spawn is created. These two 'temporary allies' should not affect rewards.Agreed. Only Prebuffed allies effect rewards. So, have we decided that Dragons cannot use melee weapons? Specificly, I am asking in relation to Lord Frost's Fire Lash class ability. And for those that are wondering what reference to dragons being able to take classes WoTC may have displayed. Try any of these links. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20011121a http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20040310a http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20031217a http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20031119a http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20031022a http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20030730a http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20030423a http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20021120a http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20030129a http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20020327a http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20020227a ...
Macbrea 08-25-06, 01:58 PM	Well according to the general elder majority right now, the answer is no. Dragons cannot wield weapons. Although this clearly sucks for your character, the Fire lash is clearly a weapon. You can take feats in weapon focus and weapon specialization with the Fire Lash. Well, in and of itself it isn't that big of deal as far as Lord Frost is concerned. I designed him to use his claw and tooth more then any of the other dragons that are out there. I can easily remove his fire lash style as it is only a stepping stone ot hand of flame next level. Of course that next level may be two years from now. But someday!
Pittbull 08-25-06, 03:41 PM	For me fire-lash isn't a real weapon which needs to be wielded. It is a psi-like-ability and you just need to "hold" the whip; for an attack only a touch-attack is necessary. I wouldn't rule, that this is weapon which you can't wield with claws. Fire Lash (Ps) A pyrokineticist gains the ability to fashion a 15-foot-long whip of fire from unstable ectoplasm as a move-equivalent action. She takes no damage from a fire lash she creates, and if she releases her hold, it immediately dissipates. The lash deals 1d8 points of fire damage to a target within 15 feet on a successful ranged touch attack. A pyro can take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization (if she otherwise meets the prerequisites) in conjunction with the fire lash, as well as any feats that apply to the use of a standard whip. The whip remains in existence as long as the pyrokineticist holds it. @Sauro: As far as I know, was the current Elder-Ruling, that we decide from case to case, not that dragons cannot use weapons at all. We only said dragons cannot use bows. Cat said, that we won't follow the "claw is a claw is a claw"- rule.
Usurpator 08-25-06, 05:30 PM	@Sauro: As far as I know, was the current Elder-Ruling, that we decide from case to case, not that dragons cannot use weapons at all. We only said dragons cannot use bows. Cat said, that we won't follow the "claw is a claw is a claw"- rule. Pitbull, I was pretty sure that the Elders (more or less) came to an agreement that dragons could not use any weapon, and a lot of other creatures couldn't too, exception to be made on a case by case basis. I'm confused now. :confused: And ruling *per weapon*, that was certainly never mentioned. It would mean a huge increase in rules, and pretty arbitrary ones besides.
NiQil 08-25-06, 10:16 PM	Re: Fire Lash I would rule that dragons and other creatures can use a fire lash (I would also include a soulknife's mindblade in this category). It is a class ability rather than a proficiency, and both the fire lash and the mindblade are made from the wielder's own mind. No reason he could not make it shaped to be wielded by his claw.
McJarvis 08-26-06, 12:07 AM	No reason he could not make it shaped to be wielded by his claw. Or perhaps a flame-tongue? :-)
Pittbull 08-26-06, 07:04 AM	Pitbull, I was pretty sure that the Elders (more or less) came to an agreement that dragons could not use any weapon, and a lot of other creatures couldn't too, exception to be made on a case by case basis. I'm confused now. :confused: And ruling *per weapon*, that was certainly never mentioned. It would mean a huge increase in rules, and pretty arbitrary ones besides. I did understand it this way. I was never asked, if a dragon can use weapons, but only if a dragon can use bows.
Zelck 08-26-06, 05:13 PM	What's your ruling on Touchsight and Mirror Image? I think on the old boards, someone mentioned that Touchsight would not negate Mirror Image unless the manifester's eyes were closed. That doesn't sound right. Touchsight would not pick up the fake images, so the manifester should be able to tell which of the images he see are fake. That means he should be able to target the one he knows is real without having to close his eyes. Additionally, Touchsight mentions that it allows the manifester to ignore all concealment. For instance, the manifester would not be affected by an opponent's Displacement. If Touchsight allows the manifester to ignore an image displaced two feet from the real thing, why shouldn't it also bypass a Mirror Image?
Pittbull 08-26-06, 07:00 PM	Mirror image doesn't fool touchsight.
DocNessuno 08-26-06, 07:11 PM	Quick one: If a skill is a class skill for a class in wich you have levels, is it a class skill for all of your classes? i remember reading it somwhere in the 3.5 core but i cannot find it animore, so i'm thinking i have been fooled..
MindWandererB 08-26-06, 07:44 PM	What's your ruling on Touchsight and Mirror Image? I think on the old boards, someone mentioned that Touchsight would not negate Mirror Image unless the manifester's eyes were closed. That doesn't sound right. Touchsight would not pick up the fake images, so the manifester should be able to tell which of the images he see are fake. That means he should be able to target the one he knows is real without having to close his eyes. Additionally, Touchsight mentions that it allows the manifester to ignore all concealment. For instance, the manifester would not be affected by an opponent's Displacement. If Touchsight allows the manifester to ignore an image displaced two feet from the real thing, why shouldn't it also bypass a Mirror Image? It was Synesthete, not Touchsight, that the debate was over.
Vathelokai 08-26-06, 08:22 PM	Quick one: If a skill is a class skill for a class in wich you have levels, is it a class skill for all of your classes? i remember reading it somwhere in the 3.5 core but i cannot find it animore, so i'm thinking i have been fooled..What it is, is that the max ranks are bassed on alll your skills. So if you have a wiz1/fighter 10, you can keep putting cross class skills from fighter into spellcraft, and have it at 14 ranks.
Zevox 08-26-06, 11:39 PM	What's your ruling on Touchsight and Mirror Image? I think on the old boards, someone mentioned that Touchsight would not negate Mirror Image unless the manifester's eyes were closed. That doesn't sound right. Touchsight would not pick up the fake images, so the manifester should be able to tell which of the images he see are fake. That means he should be able to target the one he knows is real without having to close his eyes. Additionally, Touchsight mentions that it allows the manifester to ignore all concealment. For instance, the manifester would not be affected by an opponent's Displacement. If Touchsight allows the manifester to ignore an image displaced two feet from the real thing, why shouldn't it also bypass a Mirror Image? That argument was actually over whether Mirror Image would fool someone closing thier eyes and using Synsthete, but it was sparked by this question. There are two reasons Mirror Image works despite Touchsight - first, its not one of the three things (invisibility, concealment, and darkness) that Touchsight says it allows the user to ignore, and second since all of the images are in the same space doing the same thing, pinpointing your location doesn't help either, since there are several of you in that location. If you want an RP explanation, think of it as the images being so close together that even feeling the motions of the original telekinetically like that can't tell them apart. Zevox
Zelck 08-27-06, 01:03 AM	That argument was actually over whether Mirror Image would fool someone closing thier eyes and using Synsthete, but it was sparked by this question. There are two reasons Mirror Image works despite Touchsight - first, its not one of the three things (invisibility, concealment, and darkness) that Touchsight says it allows the user to ignore, and second since all of the images are in the same space doing the same thing, pinpointing your location doesn't help either, since there are several of you in that location. If you want an RP explanation, think of it as the images being so close together that even feeling the motions of the original telekinetically like that can't tell them apart. I'd appreciate it if you could reconsider this decision. First, if the images are too close together, then so should the image from Displacement, and Touchsight allows you to ignore that. Additionally, Touchsight doesn't just pinpoint their square; it pinpoints exactly where they are. This is clear since it negates concealment; otherwise, it would simply tell you the square of an invisible creature but not negate the miss chance. Finally, none of the figments include "texture" as one of the senses they fool. Clearly, Touchsight would not be able to feel the images, and you could just target the only "image" that Touchsight can pick up. If you can close your eyes and do this, you should be able to keep them open and do it as well.
Usurpator 08-27-06, 07:16 AM	I did understand it this way. I was never asked, if a dragon can use weapons, but only if a dragon can use bows. I think it got lost in the shuffle, but below is my original question: Can dragons wield weapons? More specifically weapons designed for humanoids, such as bows? This was later amended by asking about what types of creatures can wield what weapons in general. I prefer a rule and not a ruling. If I am considering a particular build, I don't want to ask an Elder about each individual weapon in combination with each particular race every time an idea comes up. If I encounter an opponent, preferably I want it to be clear beforehand if they can use weapons or not (and if they have an illegal build or not). Additionally, Elders have different opinions and can change their mind. Which can result in one ruling one way and another ruling something else. Which is why I also prefer a rule above a ruling for a specific case. Apparently no rule (or even clear ruling) has been made, since 'we will rule on a case by case basis' is the default Elder rule for every question, and not really a rule that handles these cases. I'm with NiQil that a power/spell should make like Fire Lash (or Flame Blade) should make the created 'weapon' wieldable by its creator.
Pittbull 08-27-06, 09:27 AM	Yes, it might have gone in the shuffle. At the moment I see no good reasonable ruling that covers all. I don't like the "claw is a claw is a claw"-rule, Sauro has proposed. Therefor we need to decide from case to case. On the fire-lash issue, I go with you and NiQil. On elder-rulings: I'm surely not the one who is best known with the rules, but I try to step in and give my personal opinions quickly, to speed up the decission-making here in this thread. If my call is reasonable overturned, I'm fine with that. I apreciate your comments, Usurpator, as well as Mindwanderer's, Zevox's, and many others. You guys know the rules often better than me and this is a great help.
DocNessuno 08-27-06, 12:10 PM	A few more questions: Alter self-plymorph-shapechange-etc. are not shared by familiar, does the same apply to psicristals and the psi version of these spells? With the magic-psionic trasparency rule, can a familiar share a power with it's owner and a psicristal share a spell? Psicristal have HD equal to master's HD, and gain skills and feats, do the same apply to familiars? PHB and SRD are a bit unclear on this...
Pittbull 08-27-06, 01:23 PM	A few more questions: [1]Alter self-plymorph-shapechange-etc. are not shared by familiar, does the same apply to psicristals and the psi version of these spells? [2]With the magic-psionic trasparency rule, can a familiar share a power with it's owner and a psicristal share a spell? [3]Psicristal have HD equal to master's HD, and gain skills and feats, do the same apply to familiars? PHB and SRD are a bit unclear on this... (1) Didn't know that this was changed, we used to allow the share these powers in the past, but if it's forbidden, it aplies on psi-crystals too, of course. (2) As far as I know are psionic-powers treated like spell-like abilities, therefor they can't be shared with the familiar and vice versa. (3) Only psicrystals gain feats, it's a special rule for them, you can find in the prison-thread. Q: How are psicrystals handled in CoCo? A: Psicrystals Abilities are granted by having levels in any Psionic Class (Psion, Psychic Warrior, Soulknife, Wilder). You still have to have Manifester Level 1 to get a Psicrystal. Psionic Prestige Classes do not gain special abilities for their Psicrystals. Use the stat block in the monster section of the XPH or SRD to build a psicrystal, but alter it with the following information. The Hit Dice of a psicrystal is always the same as it's master's HD, and not just Psion/Wilder levels. A psicyrstal's Base Attack Bonus (BAB) is the same as a construct (progressing like a psychic warrior). It has a -17 penalty on grapple checks (-12 size, -5 Str). The skills of a psicrystal are the same as it's owner, plus a minimum of 4 ranks in Listen, Move Silently, Search and Spot (these minimum ranks are in addition to any gained from the owner). Psicrystals do not get skill points of their own. Also, a psicrystal with Self-Proplusion added has a bonus to Climb of +10. All psicrystals start with Alertness as their 1 HD feat. Additional feats may be taken as their master gains levels. Psicrystals can't carry anything unless they have self-propulsion turned on. If self propulsion is activated, it's carrying capacity is 0 - 1.5 lbs (light), 1.6 - 3 lbs (medium), 3.1 - 5 lbs (heavy). Since psicrystals don't have arms (only 2 sets of legs), they cannot carry items to hand to their owner. Magical slots available to a psicrystal include one robe or suit of armor on the body (over a vest, vestment, or shirt), one vest, vestment, or shirt on the torso, one belt around the haunches (over a robe or suit of armor), one pair of bracers or bracelets on the forelegs, one pair of boots or shoes on the forelegs, one pair of boots or shoes on the hindlegs, and one ring on each foreleg between bracers and boots.
DocNessuno 08-27-06, 01:37 PM	Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher. So i guess that refers only to spells-abilities that check HD of the target 2) As far as I know are psionic-powers treated like spell-like abilities, therefor they can't be shared with the familiar and vice versa. In the trasparency rule there is no mention of considering magic as a psi-like and psionic as a spell-like for interaction effects, so i would like some further explanation on this one Thank you for your time.
Pittbull 08-27-06, 02:23 PM	In the trasparency rule there is no mention of considering magic as a psi-like and psionic as a spell-like for interaction effects, so i would like some further explanation on this one Thank you for your time. Sorry, don't know where it is. Perhaps I find it later.
Ravashack 08-27-06, 02:54 PM	That argument was actually over whether Mirror Image would fool someone closing thier eyes and using Synsthete, but it was sparked by this question. There are two reasons Mirror Image works despite Touchsight - first, its not one of the three things (invisibility, concealment, and darkness) that Touchsight says it allows the user to ignore, and second since all of the images are in the same space doing the same thing, pinpointing your location doesn't help either, since there are several of you in that location. If you want an RP explanation, think of it as the images being so close together that even feeling the motions of the original telekinetically like that can't tell them apart. Zevox That is an erroneous conclusion unfortunately, because it would directly imply that even if your eyes were closed and you didn't have anything up, you would not be able tell which which was the real one by touch, which is not a sensation that Mirror Image provides a figment of. It also directly contradicts the line in Mirror Image that states: An attacker must be able to see the images to be fooled. If you are invisible or an attacker shuts his or her eyes, the spell has no effect. (Being unable to see carries the same penalties as being blinded.) The first line of Touchsight, on the other hand, says: You generate a subtle telekinetic field of mental contact, allowing you to “feel” your surroundings even in total darkness or when your sight would otherwise be obscured by your physical environment. Synesthete is totally different--it specifically has a line that tells you that you can still be fooled by things: Psionic or magical displacement effects, invisibility effects, illusions, and other similar effects confuse your synesthete senses just as they would your normal senses. Touchsight does not.
Zevox 08-27-06, 10:35 PM	That is an erroneous conclusion unfortunately, because it would directly imply that even if your eyes were closed and you didn't have anything up, you would not be able tell which which was the real one by touch, which is not a sensation that Mirror Image provides a figment of. How so? Even though Touchsight allows you to "feel" them, your eyes are still telling you theres several "thems" in the location you feel them at. With your eyes closed you clearly cannot see the images to be fooled by them, so whether you're using touchsight or just physically touching them theres no reason for them to fool you. Even with your eyes open if you actually physically touch them you'll clearly know the others are images; with touchsight up and your eyes open however how could you be sure which of them you are telekinetically feeling without similarly physically touching them? It also directly contradicts the line in Mirror Image that states: How so? I never said that closing your eyes when using Touchsight wouldn't let you bypass the images; just that having them open would still have them trouble you. Synesthete is totally different--it specifically has a line that tells you that you can still be fooled by things: Touchsight does not. Indeed, and I agree that when using Synsthete closing your eyes will still yield being fooled by the images (in point of fact that was what I was arguing during that argument). Closing your eyes while using Touchsight will on the other hand bypass them. Its just that I do not feel that Touchsight will bypass them without closing your eyes, for the reasons I stated above. Zevox
Zelck 08-27-06, 10:45 PM	How so? Even though Touchsight allows you to "feel" them, your eyes are still telling you theres several "thems" in the location you feel them at. With your eyes closed you clearly cannot see the images to be fooled by them, so whether you're using touchsight or just physically touching them theres no reason for them to fool you. Even with your eyes open if you actually physically touch them you'll clearly know the others are images; with touchsight up and your eyes open however how could you be sure which of them you are telekinetically feeling without similarly physically touching them? IMO, Touchsight doesn't just pinpoint the square your opponent is in, it also tells you exactly where they are (extrapolation from negation of concealment and flavor). Thus, even though your eyes are telling you that several images in that square, Touchsight tells you which one feels real and which don't.
McJarvis 08-27-06, 10:59 PM	The problem here is more the definition of "pinpoint" than anything else. When the word "pinpoint" is used in other abilities(such as scent) it refers to identifying what square the creature is in and nothing more-- yet the word seems to imply that you know the exact physical space the creature occupies.
Ravashack 08-28-06, 02:33 AM	How so? Even though Touchsight allows you to "feel" them, your eyes are still telling you theres several "thems" in the location you feel them at. With your eyes closed you clearly cannot see the images to be fooled by them, so whether you're using touchsight or just physically touching them theres no reason for them to fool you. Even with your eyes open if you actually physically touch them you'll clearly know the others are images; with touchsight up and your eyes open however how could you be sure which of them you are telekinetically feeling without similarly physically touching them? Because the spell only additionally confuses your senses for sound, and sound only. The Mirror Images don't put out any smell, nor are they tangible. Someone with scent who gets within 5 feet of the mirror imaged person is STILL going to know which images are fake, simply because they won't smell, and scent was definitely an option when Mirror Image was written up. Likewise a mirror imaged person who wanders into Touchsight range is going to have the figment foiled because the mirror images don't create anything solid to fool the Touchsight. If someone wants to use Mirror Image against someone using Touchsight, that person needs to stay out of it's range. Having your eyes open with Touchsight up is if you care to distinguish whether someone is invisible, concealed, displaced, or whatever.
MindWandererB 08-28-06, 01:54 PM	Because the spell only additionally confuses your senses for sound, and sound only. The Mirror Images don't put out any smell, nor are they tangible. Someone with scent who gets within 5 feet of the mirror imaged person is STILL going to know which images are fake, simply because they won't smell, and scent was definitely an option when Mirror Image was written up. Likewise a mirror imaged person who wanders into Touchsight range is going to have the figment foiled because the mirror images don't create anything solid to fool the Touchsight. If someone wants to use Mirror Image against someone using Touchsight, that person needs to stay out of it's range. Having your eyes open with Touchsight up is if you care to distinguish whether someone is invisible, concealed, displaced, or whatever. Although I agreed with you up to this point, I disagree with this scent argument, because scent is incapable of negating concealment. It can narrow down a location to a single 5-foot square, but it can't establish a location within that square. I think anything that 1) is insensitive to visual effects, and 2) negates concealment, would invalidate Mirror Image.
Ravashack 08-29-06, 01:12 AM	Although I agreed with you up to this point, I disagree with this scent argument, because scent is incapable of negating concealment. It can narrow down a location to a single 5-foot square, but it can't establish a location within that square. I think anything that 1) is insensitive to visual effects, and 2) negates concealment, would invalidate Mirror Image. I guess that would be more of an issue of defining 'pinpoint'. However, another thing with Mirror Images that is being forgotten is that just because someone's eyes are open, doesn't mean he/she HAS to be looking at the Mirror Imaged person. Especially with Touchsight up. Either way, the spell description clearly states that "When you and the mirror image separate, observers can’t use vision or hearing to tell which one is you and which the image." It says nothing about smell or touch being confused as well.
McJarvis 08-29-06, 10:19 AM	I guess that would be more of an issue of defining 'pinpoint'. However, another thing with Mirror Images that is being forgotten is that just because someone's eyes are open, doesn't mean he/she HAS to be looking at the Mirror Imaged person. Especially with Touchsight up. Either way, the spell description clearly states that "When you and the mirror image separate, observers can’t use vision or hearing to tell which one is you and which the image." It says nothing about smell or touch being confused as well. I don't think they(other board members) are saying that touchsight is "fooled", I think they are saying that touchsight is incapable of "pinpointing" beyond a five-foot square plus negating conceilment/etc.
Zelck 08-29-06, 11:18 AM	I don't think they(other board members) are saying that touchsight is "fooled", I think they are saying that touchsight is incapable of "pinpointing" beyond a five-foot square plus negating conceilment/etc. Right, but negating concealment should indicate that it does more than just pinpoint to a 5' square. After all, it can not just "pinpoint" an invisible creature, but also allow the manifester to target and hit that creature without suffering total concealment.
hogarth 08-29-06, 03:55 PM	Can I get an Elder's ruling on the following question: If a gladiator pays an NPC to improve a custom skill item (for example, paying a wizard to improve a Cloak of Handle Animal +2 to a Cloak of Handle Animal +3), does that cost credits? Or is it just acquiring the item in the first place that costs credits?
TelinArtho 08-29-06, 03:58 PM	The only example of this that I know of is Kraegin's Periapt of Wisdom. He crafted it at +1 (and paid credits) and improved it later to +3 (and again paid credits). You are probably best served to ask this directly to Cat - since he's the one that determines whether things cost credits or not. Just make sure to let everyone (ie me) know - because if the improvement doesn't cost further credits, I'd rather get my 5 credits refunded...
King Uther 08-30-06, 12:29 AM	You should only have to pay credits once. I always have, and have had at least 5 characters with custom items boosting skills. Question 1: Can a ghost age while undead, thus gaining the benefits without the drawbacks? Answer: Cat ruling in an email I sent him today. Technically yes, but due to balance may not be allowed. Question 2: Does Divine Might cover Telekinesis? Answer: Yes. According to the feat, it adds it to weapon damage, regardless of the source.
MindWandererB 08-30-06, 02:48 PM	All right, I'm putting the finishing touches on a werebat, and I need to get some elder consensi before I can finish--namely, equipment. When a character uses Alternate Form to become a dire bat, which of the following pieces of equipment can be worn/carried? Some of them I consider to be no-brainers one way or the other, but it's easiest just to include the entire list and get clarification for the lot, to avoid confusion or debate later on. - Sheathed weapons - Other "ready" objects, like potions - Quiver (on back or on waist) - Object held in the mouth (e.g. put weapon between teeth, then change) - headband, hat, helmet, or phylactery on the head - pair of eye lenses or goggles on or over the eyes - amulet, brooch, medallion, necklace, periapt, or scarab around the neck - vest, vestment, or shirt on the torso - robe or suit of armor on the body (over a vest, vestment, or shirt) - belt around the waist (over a robe or suit of armor) - cloak, cape, or mantle around the shoulders (over a robe or suit of armor) - pair of bracers or bracelets on the arms or wrists - glove, pair of gloves, or pair of gauntlets on the hands - ring on each hand (or two rings on one hand) - pair of boots or shoes on the feet
TelinArtho 08-30-06, 04:55 PM	You should only have to pay credits once. I always have, and have had at least 5 characters with custom items boosting skills. Well, just received a PM back from Cat concerning this and he has stated that upgrades cost additional credits - so KU - you sir are incorrect and need to pay some more credits...
SoulLord 08-30-06, 06:26 PM	Well, just received a PM back from Cat concerning this and he has stated that upgrades cost additional credits - so KU - you sir are incorrect and need to pay some more credits... All upgrades? will upgrading a headband of intellect +1 to a headband of intellect +2 cost you credits? or only if you upgrade it from +1 to +3
Caterane 08-30-06, 07:05 PM	A +2 headband is no custom item so it costs no credits. Upgrading a headband +1 intelligence to +3 costs credits again. And once again at +5.
Zelck 08-30-06, 10:20 PM	Antitoxin does not count as an expendable item and thus cannot be burglaried, right?
NiQil 08-30-06, 10:34 PM	Correct.
Pittbull 08-31-06, 05:03 AM	All right, I'm putting the finishing touches on a werebat, and I need to get some elder consensi before I can finish--namely, equipment. When a character uses Alternate Form to become a dire bat, which of the following pieces of equipment can be worn/carried? Some of them I consider to be no-brainers one way or the other, but it's easiest just to include the entire list and get clarification for the lot, to avoid confusion or debate later on. OK, let's work it out. Don't forget, this is only my opinion and some other Elders should verify it too! The problems is, that the flying-membrans go from the fingertips to the legs. Your surely need a costumized carrying-gear, that doesn't interfere with the wings. If you get such a backpack, we could qualify it's "belts" as apropiate for a belt slot. Of course, we have to state first that the upper body doesn't change in size while shifting from hybrid to animal. In my opinion this item should cost credits too. - Sheathed weapons It depends where the scabbard is, the hip is critical, the back is fine! - Other "ready" objects, like potions If the costumized backpack is possible, then there is no problem. - Quiver (on back or on waist) Same as above! - Object held in the mouth (e.g. put weapon between teeth, then change) Yes! - headband, hat, helmet, or phylactery on the head Yes! - pair of eye lenses or goggles on or over the eyes Yes! - amulet, brooch, medallion, necklace, periapt, or scarab around the neck Yes! - vest, vestment, or shirt on the torso Yes! Like a tunica! - robe or suit of armor on the body (over a vest, vestment, or shirt) Yes! But must be a customized thing! - belt around the waist (over a robe or suit of armor) Yes! But not ot around the waist! - cloak, cape, or mantle around the shoulders (over a robe or suit of armor) That could cause problems while flying! - pair of bracers or bracelets on the arms or wrists No! - glove, pair of gloves, or pair of gauntlets on the hands No! - ring on each hand (or two rings on one hand) No! - pair of boots or shoes on the feet No!
Usurpator 08-31-06, 08:07 AM	In response to MindWandererB's about lycanthropes question, I like to point out this paragraph from the SRD: Changing Form Changing form is a standard action. If the change is involuntary, the character performs the change on his next turn following the triggering event. Changing to animal or hybrid form ruins the character’s armor and clothing (including any items worn) if the new form is larger than the character’s natural form; carried items are simply dropped. Characters can hastily doff clothing while changing, but not armor. Magic armor survives the change if it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save. I have always interpreted this as that most nonmagical items would simply by destroyed by the changing process: belts would snap, vests would tear, backpacks would rupture. I am not sure about magical items, though, since they (except for weapons) are supposed to resize to match its wearer. It does state that magical armor is destroyed unless...., so that might indicate that default assumption is for it to be destroyed. This is only a problem for a Dire Werebat when it changes from humanoid to Hybrid or Animal form, since that involves a size change. Changing from Hybrid into animal form doesn't involve a size change, and as such isn't subject to the destroyed rule. Because the Nimbus restores destroyed items, this is not a big problem in the long run, but it might be in a fight. I agree that a Dire Werebat in animal should be allowed to wear a backpack (albeit a specially adapted backpack not fit or humanoids) for example, but a normal backpack would not survive the change. If magical equipment resizes, I assume it also resizes once you go from Medium-size to Large as a Dire Werebat, and that it poses no problem. As far as the specific questions are concerned, a Dire Bat is a mammal, and shares most of its characteristics. It has a common skeletal structure, a neck, shoulders, eyes etc., so it should be able to wear almost anything. In any case, Dragons can (according to the Draconomicon) use/wear the following: goggles/lenses, cloak/cape/mantle, amulets/brooches/medaillons, robe, vest/vestment, bracers/bracelets, gloves/gaunlets, belts, rings, boots. And can freely exchange these items with humanoids. Only exception really is armor. However, it does speak of a number of items that are often 'especially made for dragons'. This includes cloaks, robes, vests, gloves and boots. Examples are gauntlets with no fingers but holes for claws instead. Additionally, MindWandererB's question is not clear. He seems to ask several things at once: 1. Can my Dire Werebat character use this item in its animal form? 2. Can my Dire Werebar character continue to use this item when it switches from: a. Hybrid to animal form? b. Natural to hybrid form? c. Natural to animal form? Also, we should distinguish between magical and nonmagical items. My opinion: Sheathed weapons Unclear, do you mean to use the sheath, the weapons? In any case, the sheats are attached to something else, so it is dependent. Other "ready" objects, like potions Is also attached to something else (like held, worn in backpack, tied to belt). Quiver Also attached to something else Object held in the mouth 1. Yes. 2a. Remains held in mouth. 2b. Is dropped (size change) 2c. Is dropped (size change) headband, hat, helmet, or phylactery on the head 1. Yes 2a. Yes 2b. Nonmagical: no, magical: yes. 2c. Nonmagical: no, magical yes. pair of eye lenses or goggles 1. Yes 2a. Yes 2b. Nonmagical: no, magical: yes. 2c. Nonmagical: no, magical yes. amulet, brooch, medallion, necklace, periapt, or scarab 1. Yes 2a. Yes 2b. Nonmagical: no, magical: yes. 2c. Nonmagical: no, magical yes. vest, vestment, or shirt on the torso 1. Yes, but especially made 2a. Yes, but especially made 2b. Nonmagical: no, magical: yes, but especially made. 2c. Nonmagical: no, magical yes, but especially made. robe or suit of armor 1. Yes, but especially made 2a. Yes, but especially made 2b. Nonmagical: no, magical: yes, but especially made, Fort save to survive. 2c. Nonmagical: no, magical yes, but especially made, Fort save to survice. belt 1. Yes 2a. Yes 2b. Nonmagical: no, magical: yes. 2c. Nonmagical: no, magical yes. cloak, cape, or mantle 1. Yes, but especially made 2a. Yes, but especially made 2b. Nonmagical: no, magical: yes, but especially made. 2c. Nonmagical: no, magical yes, but especially made. pair of bracers or bracelets 1. Yes, but especially made 2a. Yes, but especially made 2b. Nonmagical: no, magical: yes, but especially made. 2c. Nonmagical: no, magical yes, but especially made. glove, pair of gloves, or pair of gauntlets 1. Yes, but especially made 2a. Yes, but especially made 2b. Nonmagical: no, magical: yes, but especially made. 2c. Nonmagical: no, magical yes, but especially made. ring 1. Yes 2a. Yes 2b. Nonmagical: no, magical: yes. 2c. Nonmagical: no, magical yes. pair of boots or shoes 1. Yes, but especially made 2a. Yes, but especially made 2b. Nonmagical: no, magical: yes, but especially made. 2c. Nonmagical: no, magical yes, but especially made. As you can see, I do not agree with Pitbull on several issues. I think rings can fit fine around the wing thumbs of bats, and or other places you can make custom things that occupy the same slot (open boots, anklets etc.)
MindWandererB 08-31-06, 12:54 PM	Thanks for the thorough responses! But I do have a few comments/arguments: Changing form is a standard action. If the change is involuntary, the character performs the change on his next turn following the triggering event. Changing to animal or hybrid form ruins the character’s armor and clothing (including any items worn) if the new form is larger than the character’s natural form; carried items are simply dropped. Characters can hastily doff clothing while changing, but not armor. Magic armor survives the change if it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.Actually, this entire section of the rules was deleted by the errata. The relevant rule is now this, from the general info on Alternate Form: —Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and viceversa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped. So everything about whether the item can be carried over from humanoid to hybrid form is a non-issue. I also would have argued the bit about rings on the wing-thumb (the one digit that is not connected to the others by the wing). Now, about "custom" items: I don't know if we have a precedent for items with identical function but different shape costing credits--that's always been a fuzzy area, and folks have generally just assumed one way or the other. I would appreciate a clarification of this. I'm especially concerned about the backpack or harness; I would personally be of the opinion that a Handy Haversack of custom shape should probably cost credits, but a mundane harness specifically designed, without magic, to not be shed during the change, should be free (heck, to even count as part of the character's "basic outfit"). I can get away with quite a bit if allowed to bear an Efficient Quiver, but the ability to bear potions, and eventually power stones, would be quite helpful as well. Remember, I'm not asking to be able to actually use those things in bat form--pesky lack of opposeable digits--just to not have them fall to the ground. It might even be worthwhile to remove the backpack and hold it between my teeth (or even begin the fight that way) before transforming from hybrid to animal.
TheMagister 08-31-06, 01:18 PM	Whatever happened to that Wild armor for Druids? Wouldn't that set a good precedent for armor that shapechanged with a lycanthrope? TM
MindWandererB 08-31-06, 01:32 PM	Whatever happened to that Wild armor for Druids? Wouldn't that set a good precedent for armor that shapechanged with a lycanthrope? TM Unfortunately, that specifies Wild Shape only, not any other form of changing shape. It could be used as a basis for a custom item, I suppose... but I'm making a monk to circumvent that entire problem. And it's fiendishly expensive at this stage of the game. Another question regarding lycanthropes: Lycanthropic Empathy (Ex): In any form, lycanthropes can communicate and empathize with normal or dire animals of their animal form. This gives them a +4 racial bonus on checks when influencing the animal’s attitude and allows the communication of simple concepts and (if the animal is friendly) commands, such as “friend,” “foe,” “flee,” and “attack.”Would this ability allow a character to use Diplomacy to gain allies normally available only with Handle Animal? The ability doesn't specify the type of check, but it sounds like either Diplomacy or Wild Empathy, and the fact that it grants communication suggests that either would work. Example: could my werebat acquire a dire bat ally? Since the default requires a Handle Animal score of +9, would a Diplomacy score of 5 (+4 from Lycanthropic Empathy) suffice to get this?
TheMagister 08-31-06, 02:16 PM	It could be used as a basis for a custom item, I suppose... but I'm making a monk to circumvent that entire problem. And it's fiendishly expensive at this stage of the game. Well, that's the "read between the lines" point I was hinting at. If the powers-that-be assigned such a high cost to armor that 'shaped with a druid character, I would think that the ability is considered powerful (by comparison with lesser priced abilities). And I would think that cost would translate over to a lycanthrope character that is essentially doing the same thing, just with a single shape instead of a wide variety. Now, if druids need magic to be able to keep their armor bonus to AC when they 'shape into animals, don't you think that creating a non-magical way to do the same thing is kinda munchkinny? (It's impossible to convey tone here. I'm NOT calling you a munchkin.) TM
MindWandererB 08-31-06, 02:50 PM	Now, if druids need magic to be able to keep their armor bonus to AC when they 'shape into animals, don't you think that creating a non-magical way to do the same thing is kinda munchkinny? Actually, I really had no intention of getting armor in animal form. That's one of the reasons I went with a monk (my other option was a wereape, which can use humanoid-shaped gear no problem). And besides, a +10 Dex bonus makes armor of any kind pretty useless. I figured it was just easier to clarify permission on all the various body slots at once than to ask a different question every time I went shopping.
Pittbull 08-31-06, 03:31 PM	I also would have argued the bit about rings on the wing-thumb (the one digit that is not connected to the others by the wing). Now, about "custom" items: I don't know if we have a precedent for items with identical function but different shape costing credits--that's always been a fuzzy area, and folks have generally just assumed one way or the other. I would appreciate a clarification of this. I'm especially concerned about the backpack or harness; I would personally be of the opinion that a Handy Haversack of custom shape should probably cost credits, but a mundane harness specifically designed, without magic, to not be shed during the change, should be free (heck, to even count as part of the character's "basic outfit"). I can get away with quite a bit if allowed to bear an Efficient Quiver, but the ability to bear potions, and eventually power stones, would be quite helpful as well. Rings: Good point, that should be possible, since the magic ring resizes. Custom items: I was talking about magic items like a customized handy haversack or a harness of giantstrength for example.
MindWandererB 08-31-06, 03:57 PM	Rings: Good point, that should be possible, since the magic ring resizes. Custom items: I was talking about magic items like a customized handy haversack or a harness of giantstrength for example. Then I have your agreement that mundane harnesses/containers would be acceptable without credits? That, and possibly an Efficient Quiver, should be all I really need to make the character functional. As for the rest, we'll go by your rulings unless another elder wants to step in. Now I just need to know whether I should net myself some Diplomacy....
Pittbull 08-31-06, 04:04 PM	Then I have your agreement that mundane harnesses/containers would be acceptable without credits? That, and possibly an Efficient Quiver, should be all I really need to make the character functional. As for the rest, we'll go by your rulings unless another elder wants to step in. Now I just need to know whether I should net myself some Diplomacy.... I'm fine with that, but I'd really like to another Elder to speak up too. Since Usurpator commented you're post and he's fine too, it should be acceptable as an Elder-ruling. Alltough U isn't one, he knows mostly more than me regarding rulings.
TheMagister 08-31-06, 04:08 PM	Actually, I really had no intention of getting armor in animal form. That's one of the reasons I went with a monk (my other option was a wereape, which can use humanoid-shaped gear no problem). And besides, a +10 Dex bonus makes armor of any kind pretty useless. I figured it was just easier to clarify permission on all the various body slots at once than to ask a different question every time I went shopping. I'm talking about the Full-plate-wearing Werebear precedent you would be setting, that's all. TM
MindWandererB 08-31-06, 04:22 PM	I'm talking about the Full-plate-wearing Werebear precedent you would be setting, that's all. TM I'm not too worried about setting precedent. Bats aren't really shaped like very many other things, and I'm just clarifying what I can do without customization. If someone else wants their armor to maintain its shape when they turn into a weresquid, that's their business. (And yes, I did briefly consider being a weresquid. It has a racial bonus to grapple checks, and technically its Jet and Ink Cloud abilities aren't limited to functioning underwater, and could be used in hybrid form.)
Pittbull 08-31-06, 04:29 PM	My favourites for lycantropes are the werebear (mostly because of Beorn), werebaboons (only 1 HD from animal and good stats), werediredadger (barbarian-animal-rage-combo) and the weredeinonychus (cool stats).
MindWandererB 08-31-06, 04:45 PM	I had considered all of those except the badger--rage is nice, but the fact that it's involuntary is a bummer. The brown bear is insanely strong and a magnificent grappler, the baboon is a cool deal and is humanoid-shaped, and the deinonychus is pretty strong, fast, and has a nasty pounce attack. Others I considered were the ape, as I mentioned (half-giant ape... effective Huge size... drool...), the leopard (as Tezca is trying already, to good effect), the lion (like a leopard on steroids), the porpoise (invisibility? What invisibility?), and the Large viper (only way to get Large size with only 3 animal HD). I don't think there's any way you apply the same precedent to a bat, a squid, an ape, and a porpoise. Case-by-case is going to have to be the way to go.
Macbrea 09-01-06, 08:20 AM	Wereweasel (Dire) should be vicious in this format. Charge bite. Watch opponent have X number of rounds to defeat you or die.
Milov 09-04-06, 09:41 AM	After his fight this week, my elf will level up to a lvl 4 ranger. This gives him an animal companion. According to the SRD... At 4th level, a ranger gains an animal companion selected from the following list: badger, camel, dire rat, dog, riding dog, eagle, hawk, horse (light or heavy), owl, pony, snake (Small or Medium viper), or wolf. If the campaign takes place wholly or partly in an aquatic environment, the following creatures may be added to the ranger’s list of options: crocodile, porpoise, Medium shark, and squid. My question is this: Would I be permitted to give him a crocodile as his companion, since it does have a base land speed, and not just a swim speed?
Pittbull 09-04-06, 12:18 PM	After his fight this week, my elf will level up to a lvl 4 ranger. This gives him an animal companion. According to the SRD... My question is this: Would I be permitted to give him a crocodile as his companion, since it does have a base land speed, and not just a swim speed? We've got allready some crocodile-animalcompanions for druids, so there shouldn't be a problem. Let's see it as a tribute to Steve Irwin!
Milov 09-04-06, 01:17 PM	Cool. A tribute to Steve Irwin? Ehhh.... not so much. Well... perhaps. I'll decide when I write it up.
MindWandererB 09-04-06, 01:40 PM	Actually, the croc is an oddity, because it appears on the list in two places (level 1 and level 4). However, one of those is in the text and the other in a table, and text trumps table, so unless they errata it, you can have the croc.
Milov 09-04-06, 03:21 PM	It's decided then. Thanks for your help, both of you. :tiphat:
Sunwolf 09-05-06, 08:58 AM	Since this is likely to come up again and it is not clear as far as I could tell. What save modifers (especially Reflex) should a phantom steed get? As a contruct? No save at all? As its caster or rider (which can be different)?
hogarth 09-05-06, 09:11 AM	If a gladiator is holding her breath underwater, what happens if she tries to cast a spell or activate a command-word magic item? Here are three possibilities: 1) (loosest) You can do an activity that requires speech while holding your breath underwater. A few bubbles float to the surface and you lose a bit of oxygen (as with performing any standard action while holding your breath), but you're still holding your breath. 2) You can do an activity that requires speech while holding your breath underwater, but then you have stopped holding your breath. You have to surface, or start drowning. 3) (strictest) You can't do anything underwater that requires speech; your voice is too muffled. Feel free to add your own interpretations that don't match any of the above!
Sunwolf 09-05-06, 10:06 AM	If a gladiator is holding her breath underwater, what happens if she tries to cast a spell or activate a command-word magic item? Here are three possibilities: 1) (loosest) You can do an activity that requires speech while holding your breath underwater. A few bubbles float to the surface and you lose a bit of oxygen (as with performing any standard action while holding your breath), but you're still holding your breath. 2) You can do an activity that requires speech while holding your breath underwater, but then you have stopped holding your breath. You have to surface, or start drowning. 3) (strictest) You can't do anything underwater that requires speech; your voice is too muffled. Feel free to add your own interpretations that don't match any of the above! I am not an Elder but my interpretation is that someone can't cast spells with V components or use command words underwater unless they have some sort of waterbreathing ability (ie spell of waterbreathing, etc).
Zelck 09-05-06, 11:15 AM	If a psicrystal can see Player X and the master can't (say, the psicrystal has See Invisibility and the master doesn't), can the master target Player X with a power? Also, what are the rules for a psicrystal pointing out a hidden enemy? Say a psicrystal passes its Spot check but its master doesn't. Does the master get autospot? Get a bonus to his spot check?
Zevox 09-05-06, 01:02 PM	If a psicrystal can see Player X and the master can't (say, the psicrystal has See Invisibility and the master doesn't), can the master target Player X with a power? Well, the Psicrystal is telepathically linked to the master, so it could tell its master where the target is. However, the master would still be unable to use targetted powers (things like Ego Whip or such that require targetting the creature, not just its space) without being able to see them themselves. Also, what are the rules for a psicrystal pointing out a hidden enemy? Say a psicrystal passes its Spot check but its master doesn't. Does the master get autospot? Get a bonus to his spot check? Again, the Psicrystal could tell its master where they are due to thier telepathic link. I'm not sure if that would mean the master gets an auto-spot, or if they still cannot see the target though. I'd tend to err on the "still can't see it" side myself. Zevox
McJarvis 09-05-06, 01:06 PM	Again, the Psicrystal could tell its master where they are due to thier telepathic link. I'm not sure if that would mean the master gets an auto-spot, or if they still cannot see the target though. I'd tend to err on the "still can't see it" side myself. Zevox I guess put it this way: If you had a blindfold on and I had a radio directly to your ear telling you exactly where someone was in relation to you, would the person have conceilment? :)
Zelck 09-05-06, 01:22 PM	Well, the Psicrystal is telepathically linked to the master, so it could tell its master where the target is. However, the master would still be unable to use targetted powers (things like Ego Whip or such that require targetting the creature, not just its space) without being able to see them themselves. Sounds reasonable. Again, the Psicrystal could tell its master where they are due to thier telepathic link. I'm not sure if that would mean the master gets an auto-spot, or if they still cannot see the target though. I'd tend to err on the "still can't see it" side myself. Hm... I think normally a Spot DC assumes you're looking all around you, not knowing where the enemy will pop up. It should be easier to see something if you know where it is. Perhaps a +20 bonus to spot as if your opponent were sniping? The hider isn't in a less optimal hiding position because he's taking a shot, but that should be offset by you actually knowing where he is as opposed to looking around quizically. ETA: I think granting auto-spot in these situations may be the easiest reasonable solution to implement.
McJarvis 09-05-06, 01:38 PM	Sounds reasonable. Hm... I think normally a Spot DC assumes you're looking all around you, not knowing where the enemy will pop up. I don't think that's true. You don't get a penalty to your hide check if your opponent saw where you got cover from, and you don't get a penalty to your hide check if there are only 4 squares of conceilment.((some brush perhaps?))
hogarth 09-05-06, 01:43 PM	Sounds reasonable. Hm... I think normally a Spot DC assumes you're looking all around you, not knowing where the enemy will pop up. It should be easier to see something if you know where it is. Perhaps a +20 bonus to spot as if your opponent were sniping? The hider isn't in a less optimal hiding position because he's taking a shot, but that should be offset by you actually knowing where he is as opposed to looking around quizically. ETA: I think granting auto-spot in these situations may be the easiest reasonable solution to implement. I would say that a psicrystal could help you pinpoint where someone was (e.g "Mort is standing right by the corner of the red building.") but he would still have total concealment until you succeed on a Spot roll. A successful Listen check might also tell you where to look, but that doesn't help your Spot check either (in my opinion). Remember -- pinpointing someone isn't the same as seeing them (in game terms).
Usurpator 09-05-06, 01:49 PM	Hm... I think normally a Spot DC assumes you're looking all around you, not knowing where the enemy will pop up. No it doesn't. Ever try to find a contact lens someone just dropped? Even though you might know exactly what to look for and what 5 ft. square to search, it might still take you quite a long time to spot it. Contacts are diminutive and got built-in chameleon ability, good for a +18 on Hide. :)
hogarth 09-05-06, 01:52 PM	No it doesn't. Ever try to find a contact lens someone just dropped? Even though you might know exactly what to look for and what 5 ft. square to search, it might still take you quite a long time to spot it. Contacts are diminutive and got built-in chameleon ability, good for a +18 on Hide. :) Finding a contact lens would be Search, not Spot (unless it were an Awakened or Animated contact lens).
Zelck 09-05-06, 02:20 PM	Finding a contact lens would be Search, not Spot (unless it were an Awakened or Animated contact lens). Additionally, having a psicrystal who knows where the opponent is would be like someone pointing the contact lens out, or at least saying "It's by the leg of the table and the wall, to the right of the nightstand". That should give you a huge bonus to search :P.
hogarth 09-05-06, 02:28 PM	Additionally, having a psicrystal who knows where the opponent is would be like someone pointing the contact lens out, or at least saying "It's by the leg of the table and the wall, to the right of the nightstand". That should give you a huge bonus to search :P. Oh yeah? Then how come I still can't find my bathing suit even after my wife tells me it's in the middle drawer? (Maybe my Int modifier is too low... :weep: )
Zelck 09-05-06, 02:30 PM	Oh yeah? Then how come I still can't find my bathing suit even after my wife tells me it's in the middle drawer? (Maybe my Int modifier is too low... :weep: ) Or maybe there're too many clothes in the middle drawer, and she's not being specific enough ;).
McJarvis 09-05-06, 02:50 PM	Additionally, having a psicrystal who knows where the opponent is would be like someone pointing the contact lens out, or at least saying "It's by the leg of the table and the wall, to the right of the nightstand". That should give you a huge bonus to search :P. Yeah. It lets you know which five-foot square the contact lense is in. :) Contact-lense examples aside, my example of the four-squares of conceilment is good enough.(or even a five-foot square of conceilment.) Despite knowing where to look, you don't get a bonus to spot checks.
Pittbull 09-07-06, 05:34 AM	You can pinpoint via a spicrystal, but you still have to see the oponent yourself. It only helps to deny cover or being able to cast/manifest area-spells/powers.
Pittbull 09-07-06, 05:36 AM	I am not an Elder but my interpretation is that someone can't cast spells with V components or use command words underwater unless they have some sort of waterbreathing ability (ie spell of waterbreathing, etc). I would support this ruling, but this is only my personal opinion.
Pittbull 09-07-06, 05:39 AM	Since this is likely to come up again and it is not clear as far as I could tell. What save modifers (especially Reflex) should a phantom steed get? As a contruct? No save at all? As its caster or rider (which can be different)? I would say: no save at all!
hogarth 09-07-06, 08:23 AM	Since this is likely to come up again and it is not clear as far as I could tell. What save modifers (especially Reflex) should a phantom steed get? As a contruct? No save at all? As its caster or rider (which can be different)? Considering that a Phantom Steed gets a +5 Dex bonus to AC, I'd say that it would get a Reflex save of +5. I'm not an Elder, though.
Macbrea 09-07-06, 09:11 AM	Interesting on the phantom steed. Assuming it is a horse-like (animal-like creature). It gets Good Fortitude and Reflex saves (certain animals have different good saves) as per the entry on animal type. Being as it appears to be a 1HD creature. That would be +2 reflex save. So, it's reflex save should be +7 based off what information we have been given.
Macbrea 09-07-06, 09:13 AM	Oh, silly question on the Forest map: The stream is considered to be 5ft deep. Half-giants typically stand from 7 feet to nearly 8 feet tall and weigh from 250 to 400 pounds, with men noticeably taller and heavier than women. If the half-giant just walks along the bottom will it drown?
Abyssal Stalker 09-07-06, 09:25 AM	I guess that creatures are treated by their techincal size, not actual. So in this case I think that yes, it will drown. It is a medium creature and therefore treated as a 5ft-cube. ("No, Izumi. You can't walk under water. You will drown if you do that." "But why mom, I'm much bigger than others?" "Because I say so.")
Pittbull 09-07-06, 09:58 AM	Yes, only technical size matters. Medium: 5ft cube Large: 10ft cube Huge: 15ft cube Everthing else is just flavor.
Pittbull 09-07-06, 10:02 AM	Considering that a Phantom Steed gets a +5 Dex bonus to AC, I'd say that it would get a Reflex save of +5. I'm not an Elder, though. Yes, if you say it should have saves, then this is right. But I believe it isn't intented to have a save. @Macbrea: I think "horse-like" is only flavor. But don't forget this is only my opinion and it doesn't base on any rule.
hogarth 09-07-06, 10:07 AM	Yes, if you say it should have saves, then this is right. But I believe it isn't intented to have a save. @Macbrea: I think "horse-like" is only flavor. But don't forget this is only my opinion and it doesn't base on any rule. My opinion is that if it can use dexterity to avoid attacks, then it should be able to use dexterity (somewhat) to avoid spells. Ruling that a spell doesn't get any saves would make sense as well, though.
Sunwolf 09-07-06, 02:00 PM	Interesting on the phantom steed. Assuming it is a horse-like (animal-like creature). It gets Good Fortitude and Reflex saves (certain animals have different good saves) as per the entry on animal type. Being as it appears to be a 1HD creature. That would be +2 reflex save. So, it's reflex save should be +7 based off what information we have been given. Another interpretation is that the phantom steed is a construct shaped like a horse in which case it would have no good saves (1HD) creature. I agree with the people saying that since it has a dex mod it should get to use that for its saves if in fact it is determined to be allowed a save.
Stormwind 09-07-06, 02:58 PM	The closest thing that you can compare a phantom steed to is an unseen servant. Both are spell effects, both are from the conjuration(creation) school. A phantom steed cannot be compared to an animal as the spell description specifically states that animals shun it. Thus I would rule that exactly as with the unseen servant, the phantom steed gets no save. Just my 2cents.
Macbrea 09-07-06, 04:21 PM	Underwater Combat Land-based creatures can have considerable difficulty when fighting in water. Water affects a creature’s Armor Class, attack rolls, damage, and movement. In some cases a creature’s opponents may get a bonus on attacks. The effects are summarized in the accompanying table. They apply whenever a character is swimming, walking in chestdeep water, or walking along the bottom. Obviously it is possible to not be totally submerged in 5ft of water. So, someone 7ft tall in 5ft of water would be walking chest high in the water.
Pittbull 09-07-06, 04:38 PM	But technically your halfgiant isn't 7ft tall, she is 5ft tall because she's medium. Her listed height of 7ft is just flavor-text. For example: If Hagrid uses augmented expansion (to become huge), he doesn't grow techinacally to 24'4'', but only to 15'. 24'4'' is just flavor.
Macbrea 09-07-06, 04:43 PM	Actually, that flavor text I wrote was from the monster description for half-giant. Not just made up. If someone wants to rule that items are one medium creature tall. Then that is fine. Otherwise stating that the depth is 5ft resulting in these types of debates. The Italicised text that I put above was a direct quote from the Monster Entry for half-giant. So, by that description Izumi is the smallest possible height that a half-giant can be. Not like I am pushing limits here.
Pittbull 09-07-06, 04:52 PM	Yes, that's all clear! But there has been this ruling that all medium creature require a 5ft-cube, not more, not less. I know this is stupid and not realistic, but the rules are like that.
hogarth 09-07-06, 04:54 PM	Here's a question: does a Medium riding dog threaten the 5' cube immediately above it or not? Pro: If "all medium creatures are the same", then all medium creatures can threaten the 5' cube above them. Con: According to the Jump skill, the vertical reach of a Medium quadraped is 4' (compared to 8' for a Medium biped). A supplementary question: how high does a Medium riding dog have to jump to attack a creature 10' off the ground? a) 1 foot -- it can easily reach the top of the cube above it, so it just needs to jump a little further to reach 2 cubes above it. b) 5 feet -- someone 10' above is 5' out of reach, so it needs 5' more. c) 6 feet -- it has a 4' vertical reach and it needs 10', so a 6' high jump is required.
Macbrea 09-07-06, 04:59 PM	So, this now brings up the question. If Izumi is standing on the bottom of the stream were to jump. What distance must she jump up to catch a breath of air? The rules to underwater combat are slightly broken as follows: A creature totally submerged whom is attacked from the land gains total cover. The individual in the water may attack freely against the person on the land by the rules as written. What this means is a gladiator may stand at the bottom of the stream and jump every so often to get a breath of air. They have total cover except by those individuals that jump into the water with them. If someone makes the mistake of not jumping into the water the person in the water may freely fire back at the person outside of the water. Oddly, broken if read as written.
hogarth 09-07-06, 05:05 PM	A creature totally submerged whom is attacked from the land gains total cover. The individual in the water may attack freely against the person on the land by the rules as written. In the bog/marsh rules, it says there's a -10 penalty if you attack a landbound target while (mostly) immersed in water. It neglects to mention this in the aquatic combat part, though. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#marshTerrain
TelinArtho 09-07-06, 05:08 PM	Reach something and threatening probably shouldn't be compared - because they are two different game mechanics. A jump skill, while usable in combat - is based off of the "real" height of the creature and what it can physically reach (this is full extension. In combat - threatening an area is based on the size of the creature in combat - which is dictated by the size type. A medium size creature who threatens to 5ft - threatens the 8 squares around it - the 9 squares above it and the 9 squares below it. It doesn't matter that the medium creature is dwarf size or half-giant size - that's the threaten range. In order to make things "fair" in the CoCo - we tend to just use things based on the size type - rather than the actual size of the creature. By stating that the river is about 5ft deep and that small or smaller creatures must swim to cross it is easy. A more easily workable solution is to say that it is as deep to a medium size character's head/chest/knees - whatever. This is even usable because the river bottom might be variably deep within a few feet. Vertical reach for jump is not the absolute limit for attacking though. It is the usual reach that a creature can get to while standing at its normal stance with limbs outstretched. In the case of a quadruped - this is likely with all four paws/feet on the ground. In the case of a quadruped attacking - it is much more likely that the creature will rear up slightly on its hind legs - especially if it is doing a foot attack of sorts. Water and jumping are going to be difficult to resolve. For the river though - I might suggest just sinking to the bottom and walking across. Even at 1/4 movement - most characters have enough CON to be able to cross it before suffocating... :)
MindWandererB 09-07-06, 05:13 PM	And as for jumping for air, I would think a DC 4 check would cut it, since that's the minimum check result you need to go anywhere, and you're just below the surface in this case. Technically that should be doubled, since you can't get a running start, but you only need a few inches, after all.
hogarth 09-07-06, 05:16 PM	Vertical reach for jump is not the absolute limit for attacking though. It is the usual reach that a creature can get to while standing at its normal stance with limbs outstretched. In the case of a quadruped - this is likely with all four paws/feet on the ground. In the case of a quadruped attacking - it is much more likely that the creature will rear up slightly on its hind legs - especially if it is doing a foot attack of sorts. It's clear that you support the notion that a Medium quadruped can threaten the cube above it because the Jump skill has nothing to do with it. That answers my first question (and it seems quite reasonable). What about the 2nd question where using the Jump skill is required? Are you in favour of (a), (b) or (c)? It seems odd to me that it would be easier for a baboon to bite a rope hanging over it than it is for the baboon to grab it!
TelinArtho 09-07-06, 05:28 PM	Well, that's the issue with having two sets of rules for height. While it is inconsistent for some things - the fact of the matter is that D&D is a medium creature-based world. Even small creatures are essentially medium creatures "just smaller" - they still take up a 5ft space - and can still attack something in the area about it. Once out of combat - that same small creature struggles to "attack" ropes that dangle 2 ft out of its reach - even though it could have attacked it normally in combat. Inconsistent? Yes. However! The size system in place for combat is there to make things categorizable. Size modifiers are a lot quicker to figure out when you know that +0 is medium, +4 (-1) is large and -4 (+1) is small. If they adjusted it down to a 1-2ft difference - the scale would need to be marked up and down from 100ft tall to 1 inch tall - that's a lot more hassle than the simplefied combat model wants to deal with. When you are not dealing with combat - just use the regular size of the character to determine things like reach etc. When you are - you have to use the size type. In the cases where you have to work with combat using "non-combat" things - like swimming and jumping (which appear sometimes in combat) - you just have to ad lib your way through it. For instance - when faced with a guy in the CoCo who gets a -12 swim check because he's wearing full plate - I'll probably make him hold his breath and trudge along the bottom - rather than sit there and watch him fail at swimming until he drowns... In the case of running jump attacks - I generally treat it that for every 5ft up the character jumps - then he is treated as being at that elevation. So - in the case of my Leaping Lizard build (Were-deinonychus) with a +39 jump check - he can count himself as being 10ft up by rolling a 1! But if you only make it 4ft up - sorry - you are still treated as being in that same square. In other words - I use the basic "rule" in D&D - round all fractions down.
hogarth 09-07-06, 05:33 PM	In the case of running jump attacks - I generally treat it that for every 5ft up the character jumps - then he is treated as being at that elevation. So - in the case of my Leaping Lizard build (Were-deinonychus) with a +39 jump check - he can count himself as being 10ft up by rolling a 1! But if you only make it 4ft up - sorry - you are still treated as being in that same square. In other words - I use the basic "rule" in D&D - round all fractions down. That would be "(b)" in my list of choices. I think it's quite reasonable, certainly more reasonable than "I can reach one square's worth, so I only need to jump a teeny bit to reach the next square on top of it."
TheMagister 09-08-06, 12:50 AM	For instance - when faced with a guy in the CoCo who gets a -12 swim check because he's wearing full plate - I'll probably make him hold his breath and trudge along the bottom - rather than sit there and watch him fail at swimming until he drowns... I have a problem with this mindset (I'm not saying you're WRONG, I just disagree). Have you ever tried to swim with shoes on? It's hard, but not impossible. It should be frickin' hard to operate underwater when wearing heavy metal armor and/or carrying a plate of steel/wood strapped to one of your arms. "Trudging" along the muddy bed of a stream while you don't have your toes to help you get a good grip is HARD. It's HARD just wearing SNEAKERS, much less heavy leather-and-metal-plated boots. Now, having said that: The armor check penalty given to armor is there for a reason. Heavy armor wearers give up mobility (in all its facets!) for a good AC score. They move slower (speed), are clumsier (balance, jump, hide, move silent), and are less adept at physical activites requiring ease of motion (climb, tumble, swim). As the DMG states, you should NEVER allow a penalty to become an asset. It should not be an option for a heavy armor wearer to "trudge along the bottom" if he's underwater, aided by the weight of his armor which gives him enough downforce to stay on the bottom. He should have to make a swim check like everyone else because that's what the game mechanic is there for; to cover that situation. Water was dangerous to medieval knights...even shallow streams were scary. Sure, you can stand up in it, but when you're flailing around after falling in, you don't know which way is even UP because you can't feel the ground through all that metal and you can't see through your helmet and you suddenly weigh about 50 more pounds because the padding under your armor just soaked up all all that liquid like a sponge. Heavy armored guys should be damned frightened of those little rocks and that darned log. If you're concerned about drowning and balance, use magic. A potion of jump will cure that stream problem nicely. A grappling hook and 50' of silk rope can be thrown into the tree on the other side of the stream and used to haul yourself across. Buy a horse. But please, don't turn a penalty into an asset. My 2cp ends here. =) TM
NiQil 09-08-06, 01:08 AM	Just a thought here....but isn't that what something like going prone during a ranged attack does? Turn a penalty (-AC melee) into an asset (+AC ranged)? Or how about the reverse of your situation? Light armor (lower AC) becomes better mobility? Seems like the D&D system is full of this type of thing already, if you read between the lines.
TelinArtho 09-08-06, 02:11 AM	I'm fine with not turning the penalty into an asset. However, since there's no way for a heavily armored character to circumvent the water on the forest map (excepting a horse - a rope would be a climb check with a -6 penalty...), they would be more likely to stay holed up in their quadrant of the map. What they then do is incur delay penalties because of the map they were assigned to - not because they actually wanted to delay. I'd say that they could yell to let their presence known - but I don't think anyone can yell loud enough to offset a -40, -60 or -80 listen penalty (which is possible on that map). In other words - I do it because I think the map is horrible. Its not really a bonus to them - it usually still takes 3 rounds to cross it - but it keeps me - as a pitlord - sane while using that map. I hate that map. I hate it I hate it I hate it... It is the only map in the CoCo where 2 characters can actually want to interact with each other and FAIL.
Traevanon 09-08-06, 08:06 AM	TM: Why the campaign against heavy armor wearers? Its already a poor option. It is easily avoided, carries harsh penalties and its benefits are easily equalled by a couple of first level buff spells. You're right there are no rules for walking on the bottom of a body of water. I'll hack a tree down for a bridge next time I'm on that map. Fancy finding rules for that!
Macbrea 09-08-06, 08:25 AM	Underwater Combat Land-based creatures can have considerable difficulty when fighting in water. Water affects a creature’s Armor Class, attack rolls, damage, and movement. In some cases a creature’s opponents may get a bonus on attacks. The effects are summarized in the accompanying table. They apply whenever a character is swimming, walking in chestdeep water, or walking along the bottom. You will note, the rules suggest you can walk along the bottom. It happens. If someone wishes to change the bottom to be a thick mud they should but as it stands it is as per the arena rules the most advantageous surface to the indiviudal that is walking upon it. In truth, heavy armor is very annoying to walk on sand also, But I don't see us penalizing them for that in the main arena.
hogarth 09-08-06, 08:43 AM	I'm fine with not turning the penalty into an asset. However, since there's no way for a heavily armored character to circumvent the water on the forest map (excepting a horse - a rope would be a climb check with a -6 penalty...), they would be more likely to stay holed up in their quadrant of the map. Technically, a medium-sized gladiator can get anywhere on the Forest map by wading through the bogs. That would be extremely slow, though.
Stormwind 09-08-06, 05:09 PM	I would like to know if improved flyby attack (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/epicFeats.html#improved-flyby-attack) can be considered the same as spring attack (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/featsAll.html#spring-attack) with regards to requirements for feats and prestige classes in the same way that a natural attack is considered equivalent to 'improved natural attack.' Obviously this would be another house rule if implemented.
TheMagister 09-08-06, 07:11 PM	TM: Why the campaign against heavy armor wearers? Its already a poor option. It is easily avoided, carries harsh penalties and its benefits are easily equalled by a couple of first level buff spells. You're right there are no rules for walking on the bottom of a body of water. I'll hack a tree down for a bridge next time I'm on that map. Fancy finding rules for that! Hey, I'm not hatin' on the heavy armor! I'm just putting forth my opinion on its advantages and disadvantages and the general pitlord implementation of them in the CoCo. Heavy armor is great at keeping you alive in the face of arrows, swords, and bloodthirsty kobolds. It's shouldn't be so great at helping you cross water. It should be a hindrance in every concievable water-crossing situation. It appears that it was intended to be that way by looking at the ACP that was assigned to it, and the doubling of said ACP while swimming. Walking along the bottom should involve a swim check, just like all movement while under water. Something else to consider: that stream water is NOT clear. If a character can't see in, a character can't see out. And if a character can't see out, a character certainly can't see straight ahead. If a character can't see straight ahead, then he's blinded, and has his movement halved again. And I like ITALICS. =) Moving across a 10 ft. stream with a move speed of 20/4/2 = 2 1/2 ft. is not a good idea (the fort save to hold your breath can approach quickly). However, IIRC...can't you ALWAYS move 5 ft. as a full-round action? TM
SauroGrenom 09-08-06, 07:30 PM	I would like to know if improved flyby attack (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/epicFeats.html#improved-flyby-attack) can be considered the same as spring attack (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/featsAll.html#spring-attack) with regards to requirements for feats and prestige classes in the same way that a natural attack is considered equivalent to 'improved natural attack.' Obviously this would be another house rule if implemented. Good Question. Hmmm.... Clearly it would be another House Rule. It's reasonable to argue that Improved Fly Bye attack is equivalent to Spring Attack... But there are important differences. Spring Attack has different requirements. It is generally the better feat. It applies to all forms of movement, it has fewer feats as prerequisites. In fact I struggle to understand why, if given the choice, you would decide to take the 4 feat string leading to Improved Fly Bye attack instead of the 3 feat string leading to the better feat Spring Attack. Generally I think the answer to your question is NO. The two feats are signifigantly different from each other. More importantly there is no precident in the rules I can find where Improved Fly Bye attack is used in place of Spring Attack to quallify for advanced feats (like Whirlwind Attack). There are examples in the SRD where Improved Grapple is given to monsters with a natural attack who has not also taken the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. So we have SRD precident for natural attacks being equivalent to Improved Unarmed Strike with respect to qualifying for feats. But we have no such precident with respect to Improved Flye Bye attack and Spring Attack.
NiQil 09-08-06, 09:03 PM	I concur.
DocNessuno 09-12-06, 03:43 PM	How much would a dull grey ioun stone cost? Would it cost any credit to buy?
Macbrea 09-12-06, 04:24 PM	Clearly it would be another House Rule. It's reasonable to argue that Improved Fly Bye attack is equivalent to Spring Attack... But there are important differences. Spring Attack has different requirements. It is generally the better feat. It applies to all forms of movement, it has fewer feats as prerequisites. In fact I struggle to understand why, if given the choice, you would decide to take the 4 feat string leading to Improved Fly Bye attack instead of the 3 feat string leading to the better feat Spring Attack. Springing attack only allows an 'Attack Action' after in the middle of movement. While fly-by-attack allows a 'Standard Action'. This is far more important on the creatures that would use Fly-by-attack. Examples: 1) A dragon flies 75ft to 10ft above the fighter. He breathes frost on the fighter and then flies another 75ft beyond the warrior. 2) The winged wizard flies up from behind the pillar. Casts a spell and flies back behind the pillar. These are examples of what can be done with fly-by-attack over springing attack. Fly-by-attack is by far more superior to springing attack.
hogarth 09-12-06, 04:26 PM	How much would a dull grey ioun stone cost? Would it cost any credit to buy? Technically, I think it would be a single-use item with a caster level of 12 so it would cost credits to buy for a character with ECL < 12. For some reason I thought a dull gray ioun stone cost 25 gp, but I can't find it in the SRD.
DocNessuno 09-12-06, 04:36 PM	In the 3.0 DM guide it was priced 25gp, they are not in the 3.5 version.
Etiquette_Gnome 09-12-06, 04:45 PM	When you utilize NPC services for spellcasting in your prebuff, there's a couple questions I have for such an option. Can you do such between fights in the 3-fight cycle? If so, how much before the beginning of the fight can I do such an action? One example would be paying caster to cast haste on me 1 round before the fight starts
Zevox 09-12-06, 04:54 PM	When you utilize NPC services for spellcasting in your prebuff, there's a couple questions I have for such an option. Can you do such between fights in the 3-fight cycle? If so, how much before the beginning of the fight can I do such an action? One example would be paying caster to cast haste on me 1 round before the fight starts Spellcaster service prebuffs follow the same rules as any other spell prebuff - you go by the time roll. So paying for a Haste would be pointless, since at least 1 hour always goes by before fights each week. As for if it can be done in mid-cycle, I'm inclined to say yes, but I'll let an Elder take that one since its not so clear from where I'm sitting. Zevox
DocNessuno 09-12-06, 05:48 PM	Have another question too: When using split ray, can both rays have the sam target?
McJarvis 09-12-06, 10:27 PM	I brought this up in the CoCo tavern, and it was suggested I come here for a ruling on it. Can dragonhide be used to make a Chain Shirt? NiQil mentioned that this has been ruled on before(it can be used), but all others seem to think it can not.
c00lz3 09-12-06, 10:49 PM	Qestion#1 The maximum value of all your Expendables combined may be no more than your ECL² times 50 (or just 50xECL²). For example, a level 4 character may have a maximum of expendables worth 800 gold (4*4*50). For this purpose, expendables use their effective price, not the market price. For example, a self-crafted Scroll of Invisibility [CL 3] is treated as a 75 gp expendable, not 150 gp. so the way this is calculated: (50xECL²) (items count 1/2 price but don't cost 1/2) or (100xECL²) I have tired to check others sheets but they are different. it seems that some are using the effective price for the cost. Qestion#2 Compression/Expansion does the power override everything on size when you change 2 size catagorys from small for instance size Diminutive: +3size to atk,ac,ect +6dex -6str compression augmented size Diminutive: from small +2size to atk,ac,ect +4dex -4str it works if you are a medium but if you are small? this applys to expansion for large creatures. Qestion #3 if you change shape to a creature of the same size can you still use size changeing effects. example: you shapechange into a creatre of your size: no size change can you still use powers that change size: compression,expansion
NiQil 09-12-06, 10:53 PM	I brought this up in the CoCo tavern, and it was suggested I come here for a ruling on it. Can dragonhide be used to make a Chain Shirt? NiQil mentioned that this has been ruled on before(it can be used), but all others seem to think it can not. Here is the discussion as it has taken place in the Tavern. Rather than repeat everything, I'll provide the links to all of the posts made there on this topic. Read me Read me Read me Read me Read me Read me Read me Read me Read me
MindWandererB 09-13-06, 12:04 AM	@coolz3: Welcome! Generally, questions like this belong more in the Tavern (at least, unless they prove controversial). The Elder thread is when a bit more is needed. 1: Let's say you have an ECL 3 character. The cap is 50*32, or 450 gp. You could have the following items: Potion of Invisibility [CL 3] [300 gp] Scroll of Expeditious Retreat [CL 2] [50 gp] 3 Scrolls of Color Spray [CL 1] [25 gp each = 75 gp] 2 Scrolls of Protection from Evil [CL 1] [12.5C gp each = 25 gp] For a total of 450 gp. Basically, each item counts by how much you actually spent on it. 2: It's kind of like Polymorph: you remove the characteristics of your old size and add the ones of your new size. But, you only make the attribute modifiers specifically mentioned in the power description. So if you use Compression to change from Small to Diminutive, for instance, you would gain: Dexterity +4 (as stated in the Compression power) Strength -4 (ditto) +3 AC/Attack (you lose the +1 but gain +4, possibly plus or minus more depending on the changes to your Str and Dex) Grapple -10 (you lose -4 but gain -12, plus -2 more from the Strength loss) 3: Yes. CoCo convention treats size changes to Alter Self, etc. as size changes, and thus don't stack with other size changes, but if the Alter Self effect (or whatever) doesn't chance your size, you can use Compression/Expansion on top of that. In fact, if you "beat" the old size, you can override it (e.g. a human altered into a halfling could use a 6-PP augmented Compression to become a Tiny halfling, just as it would let them become a Tiny human).
SauroGrenom 09-13-06, 01:33 AM	Have another question too: When using split ray, can both rays have the sam target? Yes.
SauroGrenom 09-13-06, 01:43 AM	I brought this up in the CoCo tavern, and it was suggested I come here for a ruling on it. Can dragonhide be used to make a Chain Shirt? NiQil mentioned that this has been ruled on before(it can be used), but all others seem to think it can not. I'd say yes it can be used to make several kinds of armor not listed. The descriptive text for dragonhide armor appears to indicate that scales are used to replace metal plates on verious kinds of armor. It lists the few armors that are most obviously made of metal plates. Half-Plate, Full-Plate and Breast plate all have the word "plate" in the description. So the text corresponds well with that. But Banded mail is included as an option as well as hide armor, while scale mail and splint mail are not included. To my mind scale mail and splint mail are made of simular strips of metal as banded mail. If those are to be included by logical extension of the inclusion of banded mail, then we should include all armors as well.
Usurpator 09-13-06, 02:59 AM	I'd say yes it can be used to make several kinds of armor not listed. So padded armor from dragon hide is ok as well? The descriptive text for dragonhide armor appears to indicate that scales are used to replace metal plates on verious kinds of armor. It lists the few armors that are most obviously made of metal plates. Half-Plate, Full-Plate and Breast plate all have the word "plate" in the description. So the text corresponds well with that. So, what you are saying is that an armor needs enough 'plating' to be made from dragonhide. But Banded mail is included as an option as well as hide armor, while scale mail and splint mail are not included. To my mind scale mail and splint mail are made of simular strips of metal as banded mail. If those are to be included by logical extension of the inclusion of banded mail, then we should include all armors as well. Since the amount of plating is not given, your mind could be easily different from the designers mind or the writer of the dragon armor's mind. In any case, chain mail has no plating at all, while banded mail (see the pictures in the PHB) certainly does. From your argument would flow that banded mail has the minimum amount of 'plating' to still be made from dragonhide, while other armors do not. If you look at the PHB pictures, you see indeed that all non-mentioned armors have smaller bits of plating than banded mail. Thus your argument makes sense, only your conclusion doesn't follow from your arguments. Note that as a DM I would simply say: "since it confuses many people, because they think it doesn't make sense to craft chain mail from dragon hide, and there is also no direct rule support it, you can't."
Stormwind 09-13-06, 03:18 AM	How much would a dull grey ioun stone cost? Would it cost any credit to buy?Technically, I think it would be a single-use item with a caster level of 12 so it would cost credits to buy for a character with ECL < 12. For some reason I thought a dull gray ioun stone cost 25 gp, but I can't find it in the SRD.In the 3.0 DM guide it was priced 25gp, they are not in the 3.5 version. Here are the relevant details from the section on wondrous items: Ioun stones: ... ... Pale lavender Ellipsoid Absorbs spells of 4th level or lower1 20,000 gp ... Lavender and green Ellipsoid Absorbs spells of 8th level or lower2 40,000 gp 1 After absorbing twenty spell levels, the stone burns out and turns to dull gray, forever useless. 2 After absorbing fifty spell levels, the stone burns out and turns dull gray, forever useless. ... There are also the following details under psionic items: ... Ioun stones ... Dull gray2 Provides 1 power point to a psionic character, then disintegrates ... 2 Dull gray stones are useless for magic but still harbor just enough resonance that a psionic character can eke out 1 power point before the stone is gone forever. However I have not been able to find a price associated with a dull gray ioun stone within the SRD, which leads to the understanding that it has been removed as a purchasable item from the 3.5 rules. Of course this still awaits an elder ruling.
McJarvis 09-13-06, 03:30 AM	So padded armor from dragon hide is ok as well? Dragon Scale Mail is not? Seems kind of iconic in the way of dragon-hide armors to not be included... =\ ((this really isn't an arguement either way, just thought I'd share my "feelings"))
Usurpator 09-13-06, 03:41 AM	Dragon Scale Mail is not? Seems kind of iconic in the way of dragon-hide armors to not be included... =\ ((this really isn't an arguement either way, just thought I'd share my "feelings")) I agree with you, but this is not just about my opinion, but about the rules. According to Sauro's logic, a sufficient quantity of large 'plates' is needed, which scale mail has not. In my campaign I allow dragon hide scale mail precisely because to most people it wouldn't make sense otherwise. Problem with armor is that you have superior armor and inferior armor. The superior armor in the class light armor is a chain shirt. It also is metal, and some classes can't wear that. It is only logical that people will want to make dragonhide chain shirts to get the advantages but not the disadvantages.
lonewolf 09-13-06, 03:54 AM	Regarding Ignatius tactic vs The Chameleon in the last fight. If you run around an area where you expect an enemy to be(who is invisible or hidden using HipS), what happens if you actually move into his square? My opinion: This is clearly an overrun attempt. Overrun: You can attempt an overrun as a standard action taken during your move. (In general, you cannot take a standard action during a move; this is an exception.) With an overrun, you attempt to plow past or over your opponent (and move through his square) as you move. You can only overrun an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller. You can make only one overrun attempt per round. If you’re attempting to overrun an opponent, follow these steps. Step 1: Attack of Opportunity. Since you begin the overrun by moving into the defender’s space, you provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender. Step 2: Opponent Avoids? The defender has the option to simply avoid you. If he avoids you, he doesn’t suffer any ill effect and you may keep moving (You can always move through a square occupied by someone who lets you by.) The overrun attempt doesn’t count against your actions this round (except for any movement required to enter the opponent’s square). If your opponent doesn’t avoid you, move to Step 3. Step 3: Opponent Blocks? If your opponent blocks you, make a Strength check opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier). A combatant gets a +4 bonus on the check for every size category he is larger than Medium or a –4 penalty for every size category he is smaller than Medium. The defender gets a +4 bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid. If you win, you knock the defender prone. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check (including the size modifiers noted above, but no other modifiers) to try to knock you prone. Step 4: Consequences. If you succeed in knocking your opponent prone, you can continue your movement as normal. If you fail and are knocked prone in turn, you have to move 5 feet back the way you came and fall prone, ending your movement there. If you fail but are not knocked prone, you have to move 5 feet back the way you came, ending your movement there. If that square is occupied, you fall prone in that square. The defending character can thus simply avoid the attacker and thus not be detected, making the tactic of finding a character this way not viable.
McJarvis 09-13-06, 04:00 AM	The defending character can thus simply avoid the attacker and thus not be detected, making the tactic of finding a character this way not viable. It would probably be good for them to rule on whether someone with improved overrun could use this tactic as well. The ruling could possibly make improved overrun MUCH more powerful.
lonewolf 09-13-06, 04:07 AM	agreed
Abyssal Stalker 09-13-06, 04:39 AM	My opinion: This is clearly an overrun attempt. The defending character can thus simply avoid the attacker and thus not be detected, making the tactic of finding a character this way not viable. This brings up some questions (not that I wouldn't agree on the avoiding). What if the invisible character wishes to block (for some reason) the "overrun attempt" and the visible character hasn't got a standard action left (say, he has moved more than his speed)? And should the invisible character suffer some penalties for avoiding? This would at least force a move silently -check in minimum and give the visible character a chance to hear the invisible character. And what about other means to notice that someone just stepped out of the way? What I mean is that it's not that simple that the other justs steps out of the way and nothing happens.
hogarth 09-13-06, 07:09 AM	Regarding Ignatius tactic vs The Chameleon in the last fight. If you run around an area where you expect an enemy to be(who is invisible or hidden using HipS), what happens if you actually move into his square? My opinion: This is clearly an overrun attempt. I don't think it's necessarily an overrun attempt (since that requires a standard action). However, upon further reflection I think you should be able to avoid him even so. If the rules say you're able to avoid a deliberate overrun, I think you should be equally able to avoid someone walking around willy-nilly. Seems logical to me, anyway.
Macbrea 09-13-06, 08:42 AM	I just noticed a silly fact. The Gnoll in the SRD is done incorrectly unless I am mistaken. Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+3 Attack: Battleaxe +3 melee (1d8+2/×3) or shortbow +1 ranged (1d6/×3) This would be correct if the gnoll was a class. Except because he is just humanoid 2. He lacks the ability to use those weapons. Am I missing something? It kind of effect my gnoll. As it stands right now, I applied the -4 non-weapon proficiency to Vladmir. Unless someone can show me a rule that states the gnoll is correct in the SRD.
Pittbull 09-13-06, 09:11 AM	If there is a weapon in a monsters entry in the monster SRD, he is automatically proficient with this weapon. Therfor a gnoll is proficient with battle-axes and shortbows.
hogarth 09-13-06, 09:18 AM	If there is a weapon in a monsters entry in the monster SRD, he is automatically proficient with this weapon. Therfor a gnoll is proficient with battle-axes and shortbows. I think this is a good decision, but note that the wording of the Humanoid type doesn't mention being proficient with listed weapons (whereas the Fey, Monstrous Humanoid, Aberration, Construct, etc. types do mention it).
Pittbull 09-13-06, 11:07 AM	Yes, but I think, we should go with that.
SauroGrenom 09-13-06, 03:32 PM	I agree with you, but this is not just about my opinion, but about the rules. According to Sauro's logic, a sufficient quantity of large 'plates' is needed, which scale mail has not. In my campaign I allow dragon hide scale mail precisely because to most people it wouldn't make sense otherwise. Problem with armor is that you have superior armor and inferior armor. The superior armor in the class light armor is a chain shirt. It also is metal, and some classes can't wear that. It is only logical that people will want to make dragonhide chain shirts to get the advantages but not the disadvantages.I admit that I didn't write a very well described logic last night just before I went to bed. What I was trying to say is that a number of large metal plates appears to be a reasonable requirement to make an armor of dragon hide (and the text appears to support this idea to some extent). But Banded mail and hide armor are specificially included while they is not made of large metal plates. So this idea is infact refuted by the SRD description of dragonhide armor. In my opinion it is reasonable that if banded mail is allowed, then also scale mail and splint mail should be allowed as well since they are made of simular kinds of metal strips as banded mail even though they are not explicitly listed. If we expand the list at all to include armors not listed, then we should not limit the expansion by any "house rule", because doing that is clearly making up a new rule. That crosses the fine line between interpreting the rules and making new ones. So yes you can make dragon hide padded armor, although I cannot understand why you would bother. You can also make dragon hide forms of all armors, although in some cases it is senseless to go through the extra expense.
DSugui 09-13-06, 03:44 PM	If I may add: The Draconomicon states in the section about dragonhide armor: "These four columns show which kinds of armor can be made from dragonhide,(...)" And the four columns in question list Hide, Banded Mail, Half-Plate, Full Plate and Breastplate. By this reading, I would say only these kinds of armor can be made of dragonhide. But since this comes from a non-Core material, whatever the Elders decide is fine by me.
Pittbull 09-13-06, 03:48 PM	If I may add: The Draconomicon states in the section about dragonhide armor: "These four columns show which kinds of armor can be made from dragonhide,(...)" And the four columns in question list Hide, Banded Mail, Half-Plate, Full Plate and Breastplate. By this reading, I would say only these kinds of armor can be made of dragonhide. But since this comes from a non-Core material, whatever the Elders decide is fine by me. If the Draconomicon states it like this, I'm fine with it too!
McJarvis 09-14-06, 12:16 PM	Sniping: In the Mort Vs Hood fight the issue of sniping is being brought up... TM is telling me that I require actual cover to re-hide during a sniping check, but I am pretty sure the rules indicate this isn't so. From the FAQ: Normally, a character can’t make a Hide check right after attacking a foe, since that foe’s attention is now focused on her (even if the attacker started her turn hidden or invisible). The sniping option (on page 76 in the Player’s Handbook) allows a character to make a move action to hide immediately after making a ranged attack against a foe at least 10 feet away, but this doesn’t apply to melee attacks Note that it specifically mentions sniping allowing you to hide if your opponent is capable of casually viewing you. incredibly effective. A character with the hide in plain sight class feature (described on page 48 in the Player’s Handbook) can make a Hide check even if she’s being observed. This doesn’t require any extra action to accomplish (unlike the sniping maneuver). Note again, it references sniping as a way of hiding while being observed. Now for my own interpretation on this: Normally you can take a standard action to attack, then take a move action to move to break LOS/re-hide with a -20 to your hide check. You can attack them in melee, attack from less than 10 feet away, whatever you want. Sniping, however, is different. Sniping lets you make 1 ranged attack & "preserve" your hidden check. The opponent doesn't auto-spot you when you do it because you're never unhidden in the first place. The only way sniping wouldn't work is if in the process of shooting you lose conceilment or cover- which doesn't happen to Mort because he's firing from darkness. Ie- you get to preserve your hide, but you don't get to move at all. It's really important that this is cleared up, because if I'm right then Mort stands a good chance of winning- If I'm wrong then sniping is a useless mechanic.(since I could always attack/move and hide rather than attack/stand still and hide)
TheMagister 09-14-06, 02:09 PM	I'd like to clarify my position to include total concealment (i.e. - anything that breaks LOS). And sniping is superior to attack/move and hide because if the sniping hide check succeeds, the target has no indication of what direction the sniping attack came from. Edit - I'd also like to take a moment to remember the times that my dwarven ranger (remember him?) who was built to snipe got clobbered by rulings just like the ones I'm supporting... TM
Vathelokai 09-16-06, 03:11 PM	List of Random Elder Questions Extreme examples of mounted combat Mounted combat (replaceing your mouts ac with your ride check) makes sense until you begin to apply it to things other than horses. Say you have a psicrystal; it has the same ride ranks as the psion, and it learns the mounted combat feat. Can the psicrystal ride the psion and guide him to potentialy increase his AC? If not, then why allow it for any intelligent mount, like hippogriffs and griffons? To go further, what about non intellegent mounts, like large centipedes, or unusual mounts like gollems? I proposed this a year ago and Tellish of Ket (ret. elder) said no. I'd like to see it brought up again. Multiple Movement Modes Can a character use two modes of movement in the same move action? Say a dragon walks for half their move then flys for the second half. Saffron Brass has burrow; could she fly to the ground and finish her move by burrowing? When the moves are the same speed it would make sense, but Saffron has 120 fly and 30 burrow. How far could she move in each way? Would it be broken up by percentage? Another example is combining the feat up the walls with spiderclimb. The character can take regular moves up the wall, and then at the end of the move would normally fall. Would the climb speed stop her from falling at the end of the move? Would she have to spend the last 5 ft of movement climbing? Disarming Well Secured Items This rarely comes up, but when it does it dosn't become resolved. What is the definition of well secured? In the SRD, it says that disarming a well secured item requires a pin first, but dosn't define well secured. Obviously a weapon in hand is not. It makes sense that worn items would be secured: disarming bracers, or clothing, or necklaces (amulets). Armor has its own rules, so obviously is un-disarmable. But what about sheathed weapons? Expendables on the belt? It would make sense that they couldn't be well secured or you couldn't draw them as a move action. A bizare example: locked gauntlets give a bonus against disarm, but are they well secured? The SRD implies that they are, but if you think about it, shouldn't it require a pin? Feat Prereqs The FAQ and other sources seem to clarify that if you meet the requirements for a feat because you are wearing a magic item, you can take the feat. If you loose the magic item then you cannot use the feat because you no longer meet the requirements. There was a discussion a few months back in the tavern about it where there was a rough consensus that the prereqs for feats were esentially meaningless. I was wondering if it could be allowed to take feats that you do not qualify for. You would be unable to use it until you do qualify, but it could be part of a character build strategy. Some simple examples are to take imp. familiar, then not have the feat come into effect until a later caster lv. Or to take greater TWF early, then take the ranger lvs. to get regular TWF when greater TWF would be possible, thus avoiding having to wait 2 lvs for the next feat slot. I don't see it as a balance issue, since the character has to work with a feat handicap for a number of levels. Chart for Unearthed Arcana Bloodlines Bloodlines cause some probems for us because a character can take the lesser one and gain benefits without having to pay a cost until 12th lv. In order to fix this problem I propose this new chart to replace the chart in the bloodlines section of the SRD. Bloodline lv minor interm majo 1st 1st 1st 1st 2nd n/a 7th 4th 3rd n/a n/a 7th Custom Magic Items I've been putting a lot of thought into custom items; I'll never have a chance to afford the credit cost on all of them, but they are fun to think about. I've come up with some items that I would like to see reviewed for balance, etc. Item of skill +x: many of these items require x skill ranks from the creator in the skill they are augmenting (mask of intimitation - 10 ranks). Some require a spell (eyes of the eagle - clairvoyance). Can these items change the crafting requirements. For example, make a mask of intimidate using the fear spell instead of ranks, or spot skill instead of clairvoyance. [5 credits - item based on other item] Boots of speed based on horseshoes of speed [5 credits - item based on other item] Armor of Quick Donning/Removal: with a command word, this armor wraps itself around the person standing in it's space or falls off the wearer. Abuseable by monks/wizards/rangers for moving in to a dangerous situation, then dropping the armor to start battle. Counts as a +1 enhancement to the armor. [15 credits - custom item] Gollems: Since they are built anyway, can you build them in a non humanoid shape; horse flesh gollem, spider iron golem, etc. [5 credits - ?] Nighthag Heartstone: can you quest to steal one? Ring of Accuracy: 1/day you can activate the ring as free action to give yourself +20 on your next attack (1/day quickened truestrike). [15 credits - custom item] Magic toolbox: this toolbox is a special pocket dimention that can hold an infinte ammount of tools. Any item put into it other than a tool is spit back out the next round. Any item pulled out that is used for purposes other than work (improvised weapon, etc.) disappears back into the box. The tools give a +2 (higher?) competence bonus on all craft skills. I have no idea on price. [15 credits - custom] prayer beads: I was looking at getting the karma prayer bead (+4 caster lv 1/day). The description of the item has it's own calculation for the price of removing beads from a strand. ("The power of a special bead is lost if it is removed from the strand. Reduce the price of a strand of prayer beads that is missing one or more beads by the following amounts: bead of blessing –600 gp, bead of healing –9,000 gp, bead of karma –20,000 gp, bead of smiting –16,800 gp, bead of summons –20,000 gp, bead of wind walking –46,800 gp.") Based on that, getting a regular strand of prayer beads with all beads removed except the karma, comes out to free. What would be the price of gettting a bead of karma by itself? potions: There are a lot of potions that could be made but are not in the SRD. Some that I'm interested in... Some rules first: The imbiber of the potion is both the caster and the target. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions. You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures. When you create a potion, you make any choices that you would normally make when casting the spell. Dispel magic/slow; use suggestion or such to make them drink it Shield other: share hp with your custom maxed Con horse resistance/virtue/guidance: 25 gp? status? Effects multiple creatures sculpt sound featherfall (with higher durration from caster lv.) prayer invis sphere blink glitterdust (it effects creatures within 10 ft.) Potions/oils/elixers with targets other than 'a creature' oil of windwall: makes the space the character is in and all ajacent spaces filled with wind wall oil of stinking cloud charged touch spells: shocking grasp, ghoul touch glyphs of warding and symbols (paints of symbol similar to a oil makes sense to me) various conjurations: summon monster/ally, tiny hut, fog cloud - pour the potion on the ground and x appears explosive rune grenades Potions cannot be made with spells with target personal. Tattoos can at x2 price. How about an elixer of shield using the pricing from the tattoos? [5 credits - based on other item.] How about items based on the pearl of brainlock: There are plenty of powers/spells that would be handy to throw at people, expecially conjurations that don't give a save. Similaly there could be any number of 'potion' style items that would be great in tanglefoot bag form, like heat metal, hideous laugh, shatter, blindness etc. Elixers based on elixer of fire breathing based on other dragon breath weapons? elec line, acid gas cone, sleep cone? items that bestow feats: there are metamagic rods, and golem manuals. Are there other items that bestow feats once or x/day? Is there a price calculation to craft them? Could you say, add track 1/day to eyes of the eagle, or weapon finess 3/day to a dagger? Alright, I'm braindead. I'll wait for some response.
hogarth 09-16-06, 03:30 PM	prayer beads: I was looking at getting the karma prayer bead (+4 caster lv 1/day). The description of the item has it's own calculation for the price of removing beads from a strand. ("The power of a special bead is lost if it is removed from the strand. Reduce the price of a strand of prayer beads that is missing one or more beads by the following amounts: bead of blessing –600 gp, bead of healing –9,000 gp, bead of karma –20,000 gp, bead of smiting –16,800 gp, bead of summons –20,000 gp, bead of wind walking –46,800 gp.") Based on that, getting a regular strand of prayer beads with all beads removed except the karma, comes out to free. What would be the price of gettting a bead of karma by itself? This particular issue has been addressed by WotC, although not in an errata. In their "Special Edition" version of the DMG, they corrected the price of the standard strand to be 45,800 (not 25,800). Similarly, they also changed the cost of the Staff of Fire (which is also priced too low). I read this on the Character Optimization board; I'll try to find a link to it. EDIT: Found it. http://community.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9609079&postcount=240
Vathelokai 09-16-06, 05:34 PM	This particular issue has been addressed by WotC, although not in an errata. In their "Special Edition" version of the DMG, they corrected the price of the standard strand to be 45,800 (not 25,800). Similarly, they also changed the cost of the Staff of Fire (which is also priced too low). I read this on the Character Optimization board; I'll try to find a link to it. EDIT: Found it. http://community.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9609079&postcount=240 Neat. Can we confirm this as a real rule; the special edition DMG is (kinda) the dmg, so it should be correct. Would that make the karma bead 20,000gp!? Ouch.
SauroGrenom 09-16-06, 06:27 PM	List of Random Elder Questions Extreme examples of mounted combat Mounted combat (replaceing your mouts ac with your ride check) makes sense until you begin to apply it to things other than horses. Say you have a psicrystal; it has the same ride ranks as the psion, and it learns the mounted combat feat. Can the psicrystal ride the psion and guide him to potentialy increase his AC? If not, then why allow it for any intelligent mount, like hippogriffs and griffons? To go further, what about non intellegent mounts, like large centipedes, or unusual mounts like gollems? I proposed this a year ago and Tellish of Ket (ret. elder) said no. I'd like to see it brought up again. Alright... This is a tough one. My gut reaction is no. Then I think about it a while and say maybe, then I looked up some thing and again I get back to no. The feat description (Mounted Combat) makes no distinction between intelligent and normal animal mounts. But I went looking and found this article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050222a) where intellignet mounts are briefly discussed. In that article the intelligent mount acts as an NPC ally more than as a mount, and ride checks are not needed to instruct the mount to attack or move. (This is where we start getting into my extrapolations from that basic fact.) So by having an intelligent ally, you are not required to make ride checks or handle animal checks to instruct the mount in combat even with special combat actions like grapple or dissarm. But in exchange you surrender the controll that allows you to direct the mounts actions and protect the mount with Mounted Combat. I think that no intelligent mounts should be protected by the Mounted Combat feat due to the loss of control over your mount. A typical combat mount is a trained creature. It simply responds to your commands at all times. But an intellignet mount hears and agrees to your commands and carries them out. That delay and the benefits that come along with NPC ally status also should negate the protections due to Mounted Combat. The other option is to say that only creatures specificially mentioned as being possible mounts can be mounts. So all dire bats, all large animals of various kinds are out (that's even more restricting). Regardless no creature can be an effective mount unless you have the combat riding training package. So non-intelligent creatures like vermin and golums are not possible as mounts unless there are specific details in the rules somewhere that allows it on a case by case basis. Multiple Movement Modes Can a character use two modes of movement in the same move action? Say a dragon walks for half their move then flys for the second half. Saffron Brass has burrow; could she fly to the ground and finish her move by burrowing? When the moves are the same speed it would make sense, but Saffron has 120 fly and 30 burrow. How far could she move in each way? Would it be broken up by percentage? Another example is combining the feat up the walls with spiderclimb. The character can take regular moves up the wall, and then at the end of the move would normally fall. Would the climb speed stop her from falling at the end of the move? Would she have to spend the last 5 ft of movement climbing? Move actions are move actions. You move x distance with x movement speed. That's it. In the rules we are not given the option to split up a move action into 2 or more types of movement. There is no 1/2 move action. So if you want to fly and burrow, then you need to spend 2 move actions on that. In the up the walls case, the inability to split a move action into multiple movement types eliminates the possibility. You will fall, although I'd give you a climb check (with appropreat bonuses due to having climb speed) to try and catch the wall as you fall. This would be equivalent to catching the ledge on a fall. Disarming Well Secured Items This rarely comes up, but when it does it dosn't become resolved. What is the definition of well secured? In the SRD, it says that disarming a well secured item requires a pin first, but dosn't define well secured. Obviously a weapon in hand is not. It makes sense that worn items would be secured: disarming bracers, or clothing, or necklaces (amulets). Armor has its own rules, so obviously is un-disarmable. But what about sheathed weapons? Expendables on the belt? It would make sense that they couldn't be well secured or you couldn't draw them as a move action. A bizare example: locked gauntlets give a bonus against disarm, but are they well secured? The SRD implies that they are, but if you think about it, shouldn't it require a pin? There is lots of room in here for argument and interpretation. The crux of this issue is to define the undefined term "Well Secured". I expect there will be lots of debate with people favoring more or less inclusive ideas of what is "Well Secured". My take is that a well secured item is anything that you have on you that is not in hand. Any "poorly secured" items are the kind of things that you would loose by falling 60' with a dead pegasus mount. If Cyra Vall falls off the celing, does the pitlord strip her of potions and extra weapons because they are poorly secured? Well secured items are strapped or belted to you so that you don't loose them. Seriously I could more easily snatch the necklace from around your neck than pull a cellphone out of its leather case at your belt let alone get inside your wallet and pull out the visa card and a $20 bill but leave all the rest behind. If I tried that you'd punch me in the face. I'd have to pin you down to get it out unless I'm using pickpocket skills (that's a whole different issue using different rules). Feat Prereqs The FAQ and other sources seem to clarify that if you meet the requirements for a feat because you are wearing a magic item, you can take the feat. If you loose the magic item then you cannot use the feat because you no longer meet the requirements. There was a discussion a few months back in the tavern about it where there was a rough consensus that the prereqs for feats were esentially meaningless. I was wondering if it could be allowed to take feats that you do not qualify for. You would be unable to use it until you do qualify, but it could be part of a character build strategy. Some simple examples are to take imp. familiar, then not have the feat come into effect until a later caster lv. Or to take greater TWF early, then take the ranger lvs. to get regular TWF when greater TWF would be possible, thus avoiding having to wait 2 lvs for the next feat slot. I don't see it as a balance issue, since the character has to work with a feat handicap for a number of levels. This is an issue for NiQil mostly. It's a prison issue. My take is that you must meet the prereqs to take and to use a feat. If you meet them due to an item or due to normal level advancement it is of no importance to me, but you must still meet the prereqs. No you cannot take feats with class level requirements or prior feat requirements without meeting those preqs in some way (items or spells or normal leveling or whatever. Chart for Unearthed Arcana Bloodlines Bloodlines cause some probems for us because a character can take the lesser one and gain benefits without having to pay a cost until 12th lv. In order to fix this problem I propose this new chart to replace the chart in the bloodlines section of the SRD. Bloodline lv minor interm majo 1st 1st 1st 1st 2nd n/a 7th 4th 3rd n/a n/a 7th This is Cat's domain. The whole UA content is full of things like this that are not well balanced for CoCo and the low level environment we have. Proposing this is a total house rule, and you should ask him directly. Be patient, Cat is realy buisy with RL right now, so he may take weeks to respond to you. Custom Magic Items I've been putting a lot of thought into custom items; I'll never have a chance to afford the credit cost on all of them, but they are fun to think about. I've come up with some items that I would like to see reviewed for balance, etc. Item of skill +x: many of these items require x skill ranks from the creator in the skill they are augmenting (mask of intimitation - 10 ranks). Some require a spell (eyes of the eagle - clairvoyance). Can these items change the crafting requirements. For example, make a mask of intimidate using the fear spell instead of ranks, or spot skill instead of clairvoyance. [5 credits - item based on other item] Boots of speed based on horseshoes of speed [5 credits - item based on other item] Armor of Quick Donning/Removal: with a command word, this armor wraps itself around the person standing in it's space or falls off the wearer. Abuseable by monks/wizards/rangers for moving in to a dangerous situation, then dropping the armor to start battle. Counts as a +1 enhancement to the armor. [15 credits - custom item] Gollems: Since they are built anyway, can you build them in a non humanoid shape; horse flesh gollem, spider iron golem, etc. [5 credits - ?] Nighthag Heartstone: can you quest to steal one? Ring of Accuracy: 1/day you can activate the ring as free action to give yourself +20 on your next attack (1/day quickened truestrike). [15 credits - custom item] Magic toolbox: this toolbox is a special pocket dimention that can hold an infinte ammount of tools. Any item put into it other than a tool is spit back out the next round. Any item pulled out that is used for purposes other than work (improvised weapon, etc.) disappears back into the box. The tools give a +2 (higher?) competence bonus on all craft skills. I have no idea on price. [15 credits - custom] prayer beads: I was looking at getting the karma prayer bead (+4 caster lv 1/day). The description of the item has it's own calculation for the price of removing beads from a strand. ("The power of a special bead is lost if it is removed from the strand. Reduce the price of a strand of prayer beads that is missing one or more beads by the following amounts: bead of blessing –600 gp, bead of healing –9,000 gp, bead of karma –20,000 gp, bead of smiting –16,800 gp, bead of summons –20,000 gp, bead of wind walking –46,800 gp.") Based on that, getting a regular strand of prayer beads with all beads removed except the karma, comes out to free. What would be the price of gettting a bead of karma by itself? potions: There are a lot of potions that could be made but are not in the SRD. Some that I'm interested in... Some rules first: The imbiber of the potion is both the caster and the target. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions. You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures. When you create a potion, you make any choices that you would normally make when casting the spell. Dispel magic/slow; use suggestion or such to make them drink it Shield other: share hp with your custom maxed Con horse resistance/virtue/guidance: 25 gp? status? Effects multiple creatures sculpt sound featherfall (with higher durration from caster lv.) prayer invis sphere blink glitterdust (it effects creatures within 10 ft.) Potions/oils/elixers with targets other than 'a creature' oil of windwall: makes the space the character is in and all ajacent spaces filled with wind wall oil of stinking cloud charged touch spells: shocking grasp, ghoul touch glyphs of warding and symbols (paints of symbol similar to a oil makes sense to me) various conjurations: summon monster/ally, tiny hut, fog cloud - pour the potion on the ground and x appears explosive rune grenades Potions cannot be made with spells with target personal. Tattoos can at x2 price. How about an elixer of shield using the pricing from the tattoos? [5 credits - based on other item.] How about items based on the pearl of brainlock: There are plenty of powers/spells that would be handy to throw at people, expecially conjurations that don't give a save. Similaly there could be any number of 'potion' style items that would be great in tanglefoot bag form, like heat metal, hideous laugh, shatter, blindness etc. Elixers based on elixer of fire breathing based on other dragon breath weapons? elec line, acid gas cone, sleep cone? items that bestow feats: there are metamagic rods, and golem manuals. Are there other items that bestow feats once or x/day? Is there a price calculation to craft them? Could you say, add track 1/day to eyes of the eagle, or weapon finess 3/day to a dagger? All custom items are reviewed by Cat on a case by case basis. You must ask him for each one. Only one thing here jumps out at me as being particularly unbalanced, but the feat thing is probably not going to fly. The pricing on that is just impossible to judge. The unbalanced thing is the quickened truestrike. Cat won't let you have it, and he shouldn't allow it either. Alright, I'm braindead. I'll wait for some response. I hope that answers some of your questions.
NiQil 09-16-06, 06:55 PM	And let me jump in here with the one that Sauro so graciously dumped in my lap LOL. I don't ever remember the conversation you are referring to that came to a consensus that feat prereq's are meaningless. Not saying it didn't happen, but I have no recollection of it. The FAQ has really already addressed this issue. It allows for magical items that provide you with one of the prereq's for a feat to use it for that reason. I have a character right now (Ash) who will be using this very concept in the near future (He only has an 8 Cha, but needs to have at least an 11 to be able to cast a bardic spell to later get into the Dragon Disciple PrC, so it will be +1 from Lvl 4 advancement and +2 from a Cloak of Charisma to get me to that 11 that is needed). But you still have to meet the prereq's. For instance, if you wanted to take Spring Attack, and already possessed the Dodge feat but still needed Mobility, if you had a magical item that provided you the Mobility feat, it would count towards meeting those prereq's. So, to make a long story short (too late), yes, you must still meet the prereq's at the time of feat selection in order to take a feat. Whether you are meeting that prereq due to a magical item, a permanent spell cast upon you, or something else, you still have to meet them.
Vathelokai 09-16-06, 07:59 PM	All custom items are reviewed by Cat on a case by case basis. You must ask him for each one. Only one thing here jumps out at me as being particularly unbalanced, but the feat thing is probably not going to fly. The pricing on that is just impossible to judge. The unbalanced thing is the quickened truestrike. Cat won't let you have it, and he shouldn't allow it either. Was just looking for guidelines before going to Cat with such things. The truestrike thing - considering the cost, I'm not seeing it as unbalanced. spell lv 5 x caster lv 9 x command word 1800 = 81000 / a charge per day 5 = 16200gp. Seems more like a waste of money really. A wand of silenced truestrike would be a lot more powerful and cheaper (4500gp). Still considering getting one for Hassan so he can be even sneakier. Or 15 credits and 6000gp to make a ring of silenced TS with 50 charges. Frees up the hands.
SauroGrenom 09-16-06, 08:27 PM	True strike items are out. Period. Cat won't allow it. I don't think he should. Any item that gives +20 on an attack roll is way way overpowered. It could be used in conjunction with all sorts of crazy alpha strike effects...deep crystal, greater psionic weapon, powerstoring, spell storing.... That's just damage output. It could also be automatic success on sunder or disarm checks. I'm sorry, but it's a cool idea, but way way imbalanced. Cat won't allow it at all. Also the spells with range of personal will never fly. Cat won't negate RAW with house rules unless absolutely necessary. In this case there is an explicit rule that negates this from being a possibility.
Etiquette_Gnome 09-17-06, 02:12 AM	I'm realizing that my character is noticeably affected by a particular choice in feats (don't know why it didn't occur to me); namely, the lack of improved feint on my rogue, instead choosing to have 5 extra skill points. When is it possible (is it?) to drop and switch a feat like this? I'm fairly new at this whole gig, and I'm already signed up for a second fight.
Vathelokai 09-17-06, 02:35 AM	I'm realizing that my character is noticeably affected by a particular choice in feats (don't know why it didn't occur to me); namely, the lack of improved feint on my rogue, instead choosing to have 5 extra skill points. When is it possible (is it?) to drop and switch a feat like this? I'm fairly new at this whole gig, and I'm already signed up for a second fight. At any point you can post in the character changes thread. Since it is early in the character build it might be allowed. You can always restart the character (erase the fight record and expendables) by cutting and pasting it to a new post; then PM pitlords to tell him that Mr. X is retiring, and Mr. X reborn is being added to the roster. *EDIT* Look over the rules in the character changes thread first. Cat frowns on making changes just because you want to tweak things. It might cost credits.
SauroGrenom 09-17-06, 05:57 PM	I ran a battle today where the Blacklight spell was in play. As I read and reread the spell description, I started to think that we may have been using this spell incorrectly for some time. The description reads:Blacklight Evocation [Darkness] Level: Darkness 3, Sor/Wiz 3 Components: V, S , M Casting Time: 1 action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Area: A 20-ft.-radius emanation centered on a creature, object, or point in space Duration: 1 round/level (D) Saving Throw: Will negates or none (object) Spell Resistance: Yes or no (object) The caster creates an area of total darkness. The darkness is impenetrable to normal vision and darkvision, but the caster can see normally within the blacklit area. Creatures outside the spell’s area, even the caster, cannot see through it. The spell can be cast on a point in space, but the effect is stationary cast on a mobile object. A character can cast the spell on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. Unattended objects and points in space do not get saving throws or benefit from spell resistance. Blacklight counters or dispels any light spell of equal or lower level. The 3rd-level cleric spell daylight counters or dispels blacklight. Let me use the CoCo mapper to explain what I think is the problem... http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=sewer;a=Cast,M,12,2;b=O bs1,M,11,14,12,14;d=Obs2,M,11,8,12,9;o=B lacklig,12,8,4 edit: the mapper isn't working very well now for some reason. Only the 1st character is shown. Anyway I put observer2 at the center of the spell effect, and a caster outside and the other observer on the other side of the spell effect away from Caster. In this map we have a Caster and two Observers. Clearly the Caster cannot see Observer1 in blue since the LOS is through the area of the spell. However can Caster see Observer2 in pink who is within the area of the blacklight? The above spell description says that Caster can see normally within the spell area. We have always used that to mean that caster must be within the spell area to see what's in the area. In other words Caster's eye must be inside of the spell effect to see inside the spell effect. We are rewriting the spell description to say "The darkness is impenetrable to normal vision and darkvision, but the caster can see normally if she is within the blacklit area." I don't think that is what is intended. Rather I think what the spell description says is "The darkness is impenetrable to normal vision and darkvision, but the caster can see normally within the blacklit area. " meaning that the caster can see in the blacklit area regardless of whether she is inside that area or not. The caster need not be inside of the blacklight to see objects or creatures in that area. So in my map above I think that Caster outside of the blacklight area can see Observer2 inside just fine. But you will now mention the sentence that says "Creatures outside the spell’s area, even the caster, cannot see through it." When I read this sentence I see that it makes a distinction between seeing into an area and seeing out of an area. All normal creatures see the darkness effect and it blocks LOS to anything on the otherside. But the Caster can see within the the darkness but the spell still blocks LOS to objects on the other side. The spell prevents Caster from seeing Observer1 but not Observer2 because Observer1 is located on the other side of the spell effect while Observer2 is located in the area of the spell. The caster can see "within" the area of the spell but not out of the area of the spell. Effectively any LOS that moves out of the area of the spell is blocked for the caster while LOS that goes into the area of the spell is not blocked. This is backwards of what we have been doing for a while, and I think it is the actual way to deal with the spell as descriped in the SRD. The obvious implication is that casters who cast this spell on themselves block LOS to anything outside of the area of the spell. You give yourself total cover inside of the spell and gain normal vision inside the area, but you also loose LOS to anything outside of the spell effect. This is fundamnetally different from the way we are currently using the spell.
DocNessuno 09-18-06, 09:22 AM	I'm still waiting an elder's word about dull grey ioun stone Also in august 13th FotW thread, an issue come up about grappling horses, i'd like to hear elder's voice on this topic. Is 'grapple' a valid trick to teach an horse? Is 'improved grapple' a reasonable feat for a custom horse?
SauroGrenom 09-18-06, 10:13 AM	I'm still waiting an elder's word about dull grey ioun stone Also in august 13th FotW thread, an issue come up about grappling horses, i'd like to hear elder's voice on this topic. Is 'grapple' a valid trick to teach an horse? Is 'improved grapple' a reasonable feat for a custom horse? You cannot buy dull grey ioun stones. There is no price listed in the SRD. If we were to make up a new price it would be totally made up. I'm not willing to do that. We try realy hard to not make new rules here, we just try to clarify the rules as written. I posted a reply in the FotW thread. We allow grappling horses because it is obvious that cats and lions and dogs grapple with prey all the time (Bite, hold on and shake is the natural attack routine). So some animals can grapple and we do not know where to draw a line saying this animal can and this animal cannot grapple. So we draw no line and allow all animals to grapple. As a consequence, yes horses can get the improved grapple feat if you customize them. Is this reasonable? Some may say No others may say Yes, but that's beside the point. It is allowed. The grappling horse (and grappling in general) strategy works well at low levels, but not so well as levels increase.
Etiquette_Gnome 09-20-06, 12:28 PM	I don't know whether I should be sending a PM or posting here, but my fight for the week of the 13th was declared an auto-loss due to my character's mistaken lack of default tactics. When I pointed this out, he asked for someone to cover this fight, but none did. I mentioned this fact again a couple days ago on the comments/concerns for the fight week, but no response is given. I have not totaled any updates to my character from that fight as of yet due to the lack of progress, but I made myself ready for this week's fight regardless, because I do not want to be left out of this week's cycle because of this hassle. The fight of concern can be found HERE (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10095954&postcount=966), with mentions of it starting on page 5 of the Sept 13th comments thread.
Abyssal Stalker 09-20-06, 12:57 PM	You should PM your pitlord and ask him to PM Cat/Pitlords that the fight needs to be extended to the following week. The only way to get a re-run is if the pitlord of the fight thinks so. This may feel harsh, but think about the volunteers who spend their time pitlording. So drop a quick PM to lonewolf and ask if he would help you in this, he seems to be online at the moment. Edit: or at least was a moment ago...
TheMagister 09-20-06, 03:18 PM	I don't know whether I should be sending a PM or posting here, but my fight for the week of the 13th was declared an auto-loss due to my character's mistaken lack of default tactics. When I pointed this out, he asked for someone to cover this fight, but none did. I mentioned this fact again a couple days ago on the comments/concerns for the fight week, but no response is given. I have not totaled any updates to my character from that fight as of yet due to the lack of progress, but I made myself ready for this week's fight regardless, because I do not want to be left out of this week's cycle because of this hassle. The fight of concern can be found HERE (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10095954&postcount=966), with mentions of it starting on page 5 of the Sept 13th comments thread. The tavern would be the place for this. I'd like to elaborate on Abyssal's post. Were it ME in this situation (wait...it WAS me in the situation two or three weeks ago!), I'd find and copy your pitlord's post that stated that he was sorry he missed your default tactics and didn't have time to run the fight and paste it into a PM to the "pitlords" account along with a brief explanation and request. That should be enough to get the fight held over to week two and reassigned to someone. Do it quick...he's online now rolling pairings, I think. Be patient. Sometimes these things take a day to unfold. Also: Because your fight was already posted, you're cool this time, but remember: NEVER edit your character sheet until you've got a fight posted. It could cause you an auto-loss!
DSugui 09-20-06, 03:26 PM	I have some doubts on how the spell Awaken would work here in the CoCo. You awaken a tree or animal to humanlike sentience. To succeed, you must make a Will save (DC 10 + the animal’s current HD, or the HD the tree will have once awakened). First question: how is this Will check resolved? An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD. How is this Intelligence score and the increase in the Charisma score rolled? Do the extra HD grant the usual benefits, as feats, ability score increase and skill points? Its type becomes magical beast (augmented animal).Features A magical beast has the following features. 10-sided Hit Dice. Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter). Good Fortitude and Reflex saves. Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. Traits A magical beast possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. Proficient with its natural weapons only. Proficient with no armor. Magical beasts eat, sleep, and breathe. Does the animal HD increase to d10? Does it attack bonus increase to equal to total HD? Does it gain Darkvision? XP Cost 250 XP.Experience Loss: Any loss in experience points other than crafting also results in the loss of 5 gold pieces per 1 xp. Examples would be spells with XP costs or the death of a familiar on a quest or campaignSo casting this spell also costs 1250gp?
SauroGrenom 09-20-06, 04:46 PM	The Awaken spell will cost you both xp and gp to cast. Also you need to keep in mind that Awaken will make an animal not an animal ally anymore since the INT is greater than 2. So your Handle Animal skill will not allow you to have an awakened animal as an ally. Infact since awakened animals are not on the list of allies for diplomacy, you cannot have them as diplomacy allies either. Now to your questions: The extra HD are normal HD and treated as such for all purposes. The stats should be treated like normal CoCo random dice rolls on a character sheet... the average value is given. Since it is a magical beast with the augmented animal subtype, previous HD are not recreated as magical beast HD (simular to a familiar). About the bonus +2HD, it's not clear. They may or may not be magical beast HD. In any case the fact that the awakened creature has an INT of 10 precludes it from being an ally using handle animal or diplomacy skills. Also since it has no LA, it cannot be a playable race. So these creatures simply cannot come into play in any reasonable manner except as an opponent on a quest or campaign.
Vathelokai 09-21-06, 06:08 AM	And let me jump in here with the one that Sauro so graciously dumped in my lap LOL. I don't ever remember the conversation you are referring to that came to a consensus that feat prereq's are meaningless. Not saying it didn't happen, but I have no recollection of it. Wouldn't go so far as to call it a consensus; there were only a few people talking. ;) The FAQ has really already addressed this issue. It allows for magical items that provide you with one of the prereq's for a feat to use it for that reason. I have a character right now (Ash) who will be using this very concept in the near future (He only has an 8 Cha, but needs to have at least an 11 to be able to cast a bardic spell to later get into the Dragon Disciple PrC, so it will be +1 from Lvl 4 advancement and +2 from a Cloak of Charisma to get me to that 11 that is needed). But you still have to meet the prereq's. For instance, if you wanted to take Spring Attack, and already possessed the Dodge feat but still needed Mobility, if you had a magical item that provided you the Mobility feat, it would count towards meeting those prereq's. So, to make a long story short (too late), yes, you must still meet the prereq's at the time of feat selection in order to take a feat. Whether you are meeting that prereq due to a magical item, a permanent spell cast upon you, or something else, you still have to meet them. The issue is how long it takes to 'aquire' a feat. If you have a cloak of charisma, you can qualify for dragon desciple because the cloak is always on, but what if you have npc casting of persistant eagle's splendor every day; does that count? Or if you carry around an infinite number of scrolls of eagle's splendor and cast them all the time? What if you have an x/day item of charisma and only activated it before spellcasting? What I'm getting at is how persistant the magic effect has to be to qualify as a prereq. The above example seems pretty straightforward. But there are others; a psiwarrior who focuses on claw and bite attacks fueled by powers will never qualify for the multiattack feat even though he uses it in every fight. A wizard with the overland flight spell (or broom of flying) has an effective fly speed for most of the day, but might not qualify for flyby attack. An ogre barbarian that only qualifies for awsome blow when raging. I won't bother going on. Should the line be drawn at 'always on' effects? I think there should be a bit more leway.
Abyssal Stalker 09-21-06, 07:39 AM	Is there really a problem here? You can take the feat if you meet the prerequisite at the moment. If you later loose the prerequisite, you can't use the feat. Period. It would be just a waste of resources if you take a feat you don't most of the time qualify. The way I see this is that the only one who loses is the one who takes a useless feat...
Stormwind 09-21-06, 07:48 AM	How are skill prerequisites handled in the case where a character always autosucceeds in that skill? For example consider an Incorporeal character. An incorporeal creature automatically succeeds in any move silently check. Does an incorporeal character automatically meet a prerequisite of 'x ranks in move silently' or must they actually take x ranks in move silently to meet this prerequisite?
Sunwolf 09-21-06, 09:57 AM	How are skill prerequisites handled in the case where a character always autosucceeds in that skill? For example consider an Incorporeal character. An incorporeal creature automatically succeeds in any move silently check. Does an incorporeal character automatically meet a prerequisite of 'x ranks in move silently' or must they actually take x ranks in move silently to meet this prerequisite? My opinion on this one is that whether someone autosucceeds on check or not is irrelevent. If the prereq if 'x ranks of move silently' is required than x ranks of the skill are necessary.
Stormwind 09-21-06, 10:35 AM	My opinion on this one is that whether someone autosucceeds on check or not is irrelevent. If the prereq if 'x ranks of move silently' is required than x ranks of the skill are necessary. My viewpoint is simply that if you always autosucceed at a skill through race or ability, then it is equivalent to having infinite ranks in that skill. Hence my question.
MindWandererB 09-21-06, 12:21 PM	My viewpoint is simply that if you always autosucceed at a skill through race or ability, then it is equivalent to having infinite ranks in that skill. Hence my question. Autosuccess is in some ways equivalent to an infinitely high modifier, but you still need the ranks. It's an issue of skill vs. ability. Just as you don't meet a BAB requirement for having a high Strength, or a feat requirement for having that feat's effect through some other means.
Abyssal Stalker 09-21-06, 12:27 PM	Autosuccess is in some ways equivalent to an infinitely high modifier, but you still need the ranks. It's an issue of skill vs. ability. Just as you don't meet a BAB requirement for having a high Strength, or a feat requirement for having that feat's effect through some other means.This is also a question of balance, of course. The prereq's are set so that you have to give something to gain something. This would give something free and is that way out of balance.
TheMagister 09-21-06, 05:01 PM	And nobody wants a Shadow assassin flitting around without them having put in the standard amount of time/pain/work to qualify for the class. Or a Shadow Shadowdancer. Or a Shadow blackguard. Or... Why are we allowing shadows, anyways? Nobody seems to like them... =) TM
Stormwind 09-22-06, 03:03 AM	Hmmm .... a Shadow Shadowdancer. Hadn't thought about that. It sounds so intriguing I might have to look into that further ;) Mindwanderer's clarification makes perfect sense. I agree.
SauroGrenom 09-22-06, 10:27 AM	Hmmm .... a Shadow Shadowdancer. Hadn't thought about that. It sounds so intriguing I might have to look into that further ;) Mindwanderer's clarification makes perfect sense. I agree. I don't think it's possible before ECL10. So you could theoreticially do it if you can get to a higher levels where you can get enough skill points. In any case MWB is absolutely correct. The game makes a distinction between ranks in a skill and skill check modifier. Having automatic success on a skill does not count as ranks in the skill.
TheMagister 09-22-06, 07:13 PM	Here's a good question that might be relevant to Tessero Valis (my new mounted character). There is a stipulation in the Mounted Combat rules (PHB pg. 157) that if your mount moves more than 5' in a round, the rider cannot make a full-attack action because he has to wait for the mount to get to the target. Could the use of the Hustle psi-warrior power buy the rider enough time to make a full attack at the end of his mount's movement? While it certainly seems to be in the spirit of the power's scope and purpose, the language in the description of the Mounted Combat RAW is very specific and restrictive. TM
SauroGrenom 09-22-06, 08:19 PM	I'd say nope. From a RAW perspective the power clearly does not grant tha ability to function outside of the time frame of your mount's actions. Also think of it this way. Hustle allows you an extra move action in a round. It does not give you alone a special extra action that fits in at some point in your full round of actions. Let me clarify with a few numbers: A typical round is 6 seconds. That's 3 seconds for standard action and 3 seconds for a move action. Hustle allows you to spend 2 seconds in a standard action and 2 seconds in a move action, so you get 2 move actions in durring the 6 second time of one round. What you suggest is more like saying that Hustle tacks 3 seconds on to the end of your round, so you can spend 3 extra seconds that are not part of the time line of the rest of the world. I don't think that's what the power intends or is capable of doing. What happens if you use Hustle and are mounted when your mount moves is that you wait around 3 seconds for the mount to move. Then you have 3 seconds left to do your other actions. This is enough time for 1 standard action but not enough for a full round action. So you only get one standard action after your mount moves even if you use Hustle.
Vathelokai 09-23-06, 01:28 AM	You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form, or any other type except construct, elemental, outsider, and undead. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin.I was looking at the wording of these two nearly identical effects. Polymorph and Alterself obviously allow casters who are outsiders, undead, or constructs to use polymorph to change into their own type. The wording on Metamorphosis is slightly different. I would like to know if a tiefling using metamorphosis can metamorph into outsider types, or a magmin could turn into elemental types. To me the wording seems a bit contradictory, and not quite in line with the polymorph spell it is based on. Side question: augmented dorje's don't cost credits, correct?
MindWandererB 09-23-06, 01:43 AM	I was looking at the wording of these two nearly identical effects. Polymorph and Alterself obviously allow casters who are outsiders, undead, or constructs to use polymorph to change into their own type. The wording on Metamorphosis is slightly different. I would like to know if a tiefling using metamorphosis can metamorph into outsider types, or a magmin could turn into elemental types. To me the wording seems a bit contradictory, and not quite in line with the polymorph spell it is based on. Side question: augmented dorje's don't cost credits, correct? The phrasing is different, but the effect is the same. And, no. (Up to the ECL limit.)
McJarvis 09-23-06, 11:13 PM	This got looked over in the tavarn twice- and I'd really like to know exactly what I can do with my horse :-) Something I thought of this round but didn't feel it was important enough to ask on before tactics were sent in... if I just bought your standard Warhorse and didn't train him further, can I handle animal it easily to seek and destroy on sight(and stay put in the process?)? To move around the arena clockwise & attack on sight? I asked this because I've seen other gladiators do it with bag of tricks animals.
NiQil 09-24-06, 02:10 AM	This got looked over in the tavarn twice- and I'd really like to know exactly what I can do with my horse :-) I asked this because I've seen other gladiators do it with bag of tricks animals. The biggest difference there is that the Bag of Tricks states that the animals created by it will respond to any trick command that is usable by the Handle Animal skill as if it knows it...meaning that they are, in essence, fully trained. What you are asking is if you can do the same thing with an untrained animal. That would fall under the "Pushing" portion of the Handle Animal skill, and would be rolled out accordingly. So yes, you can do it, but the mechanics are completely different. What you want to do is much harder.
McJarvis 09-24-06, 10:02 AM	The biggest difference there is that the Bag of Tricks states that the animals created by it will respond to any trick command that is usable by the Handle Animal skill as if it knows it...meaning that they are, in essence, fully trained. What you are asking is if you can do the same thing with an untrained animal. That would fall under the "Pushing" portion of the Handle Animal skill, and would be rolled out accordingly. So yes, you can do it, but the mechanics are completely different. What you want to do is much harder. I meant to ask- is the training I desire emcompassed in the training a warhorse gets?
Vathelokai 09-25-06, 01:10 AM	I meant to ask- is the training I desire emcompassed in the training a warhorse gets? Standard warhorse gets the combat riding package (tricks = attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel), and with those tricks you would have to use the handle animal skill as a full round action to 'push' the horse to do it. To do it as a regular handle animal check, you would have to get a custom trained horse (probably with the tricks attack x2, seek, flush out, and ambush); either pay more for it, or pay credits. See here - handle animals - for other tricks that do what you want to do. Also look over the tricks in the handle animal section of the SRD. See here for how to get a custom horse (via handle animal skill or money). Either way, only mounts that have the combat riding package can wear armor.
Zevox 09-25-06, 07:35 AM	Either way, only mounts that have the combat riding package can wear armor. Slight correction: other mounts can wear it, but aren't considered proficient with it, so they'd suffer its ACP on thier attacks. Zevox
TheMagister 09-25-06, 07:41 AM	Slight correction: other mounts can wear it, but aren't considered proficient with it, so they'd suffer its ACP on thier attacks. Zevox So if you've got 4,000+ gp just a-lyin' around, you can fit your heavy horse with mithral chain shirt barding and not feel too bad about it. =)
MindWandererB 09-25-06, 02:53 PM	Or for 1 AC less, go for masterwork studded; or for 2 AC less, go for the dirt-cheap leather.
Vathelokai 09-26-06, 07:13 AM	A question about knowledge: psionics - Psionic is a subtype, but here it is used to identify psionic monsters. I have two questions; 1) can you identify say, a xeph, with know local, or with know psionics, or do you have to have both? 2) What if you want to alterself into a xeph - is it one skill, the other, or both that you need?
Pittbull 09-26-06, 09:22 AM	A question about knowledge: psionics - Psionic is a subtype, but here it is used to identify psionic monsters. I have two questions; 1) can you identify say, a xeph, with know local, or with know psionics, or do you have to have both? 2) What if you want to alterself into a xeph - is it one skill, the other, or both that you need? I would say: one of both is enough.
McJarvis 09-26-06, 11:56 AM	I asked in the tavarn, but Zevox didn't sound entirely sure of himself.... A medium-sized viper can wear barding(with training)...can a small-sized character buy an exotic saddle to ride the medium-sized viper? I feel that if the snake can wear barding then it can surely wear a saddle, and if it can wear a saddle I could surely ride it... Next question regarding this: Does it take a special ride check to stay in the saddle if your mount is upside down or perpendicular to the ground? This applies to any mount with a climb speed or fly speed- and I see no special rules for what position your mount is in other than a DC 10 ride check if the mount rears up suddenly(which is unexpected...and maybe not applicable to this) Depending on the answer to this Mort Noir may enter the arena again in his new form. :)
Pittbull 09-26-06, 02:22 PM	I don't have a source-books to these topic, but are there special rules for drows riding their lizards or spiders? If not, then an exotic saddle should be enough.
TelinArtho 09-26-06, 02:24 PM	I would agree - an exotic saddle is in place specifically for non-"standard" mounts - those with more than 4 legs, those with wings, etc. The exotic saddle should be just fine for mounting an appropriately sized snake. Now - why anyone would want a mount that has a top speed of 20ft is beyond me...
lonewolf 09-26-06, 02:30 PM	I would agree - an exotic saddle is in place specifically for non-"standard" mounts - those with more than 4 legs, those with wings, etc. The exotic saddle should be just fine for mounting an appropriately sized snake. Now - why anyone would want a mount that has a top speed of 20ft is beyond me... the climb speed. :)
TelinArtho 09-26-06, 02:52 PM	Well, yes - but the highest climb DC we have right now is what? 15? If someone wants to focus on climbing - a few skill points and a climbers kit will go a long way. Yes - climb 20 is nice - get's you up to the canopy in one round - but factor into that you also need to mount the thing (which might be a move action) and dismount it (which also might be a move action) - and suddenly you are at 2 rounds. Someone who spent two full rounds climbing should easily have covered that (barring very bad luck...). Also - every place that you can climb also requires balance once you get up there if you want to move about. Since the penalties for falling from the top are far worse than falling while you are climbing (usually), one would think that balance is probably a more useful thing to focus on.
MindWandererB 09-26-06, 03:49 PM	Well, if you start off mounted, and stay mounted, it might not be so bad. Also, IIRC snakes have pretty nice ACs--I even proposed using snakes this way in the TLT thread. The big hindrance would be that snakes have an Int of 1, meaning that you can't teach them the combat riding package without druid bonus tricks. That makes armoring them or riding them pretty tricky.
McJarvis 09-26-06, 08:02 PM	Well, if you start off mounted, and stay mounted, it might not be so bad. Also, IIRC snakes have pretty nice ACs--I even proposed using snakes this way in the TLT thread. The big hindrance would be that snakes have an Int of 1, meaning that you can't teach them the combat riding package without druid bonus tricks. That makes armoring them or riding them pretty tricky. The medium viper only has a str of 8 too, making him auto-encumbered from the get-go with a 40 lb exotic saddle. But that aside, I can shoot while he is climbing. I can also retain my dex to AC this way. The viper also gets a swim speed & will act as a tank(nice con damage poison too- even if the DC _is_ low) As far as mounting goes- fast-dismounting is a free action and is relatively easy to accomplish. As far as armoring them: I'm playing around with the idea of either investing in Mithril Chain Shirt for him or spending credits on switching improved initiative for a light armor prof.
Zevox 09-26-06, 08:08 PM	or spending credits on switching improved initiative for a light armor prof. Not an option in this case I'm afraid. You can pay credits to customize diplomacy or handle animal allies, but not class ones - those go strictly by the rules for that type of class ally. Zevox
McJarvis 09-26-06, 08:12 PM	Not an option in this case I'm afraid. You can pay credits to customize diplomacy or handle animal allies, but not class ones - those go strictly by the rules for that type of class ally. Zevox Oh...how sad :(. I mean...how wonderful that this rule has saved me from spending 20+ creds on a single character :D edit- What is the ride DC if your mount is completely up-right on a wall? Like if I share-cast spider climb, order my mount up a wall(with a trick, of course), and want to shoot my bow from there? I wouldn't imagine that you would _have_ to use hands to stay in the saddle...especially if it's a military one... double edit- I can pick any feat I want for him when he gets his 3rd hit die though, right?(animal companion)
TheMagister 09-26-06, 09:42 PM	The medium viper only has a str of 8 too, making him auto-encumbered from the get-go with a 40 lb exotic saddle. But that aside, I can shoot while he is climbing. I can also retain my dex to AC this way. The viper also gets a swim speed & will act as a tank(nice con damage poison too- even if the DC _is_ low) As far as mounting goes- fast-dismounting is a free action and is relatively easy to accomplish. As far as armoring them: I'm playing around with the idea of either investing in Mithril Chain Shirt for him or spending credits on switching improved initiative for a light armor prof. An exotic saddle for a medium creature weighs 1/2 as much as an exotic saddle made for a large creature. A medium viper would have an exotic saddle that weighed in at 20 lbs. TM
hogarth 09-26-06, 09:46 PM	What is the ride DC if your mount is completely up-right on a wall? Like if I share-cast spider climb, order my mount up a wall(with a trick, of course), and want to shoot my bow from there? While we're on the subject of exotic mount movement, what rules would apply if a mount had a burrow speed? Would it be possible to ride underground? I had considered doing this with Treetall Oakleg if he ever summoned a wolverine with his Bag of Tricks.
McJarvis 09-26-06, 10:55 PM	While we're on the subject of exotic mount movement, what rules would apply if a mount had a burrow speed? Would it be possible to ride underground? I had considered doing this with Treetall Oakleg if he ever summoned a wolverine with his Bag of Tricks. The Ashworm Dragoon from Sandstorm gets a class ability which lets them go with their mounts while the mount is burrowing- so I don't think this is something you can do with ride....
Vathelokai 09-27-06, 05:29 AM	A question about knowledge: psionics - Psionic is a subtype, but here it is used to identify psionic monsters. I have two questions; 1) can you identify say, a xeph, with know local, or with know psionics, or do you have to have both? 2) What if you want to alterself into a xeph - is it one skill, the other, or both that you need? I would say: one of both is enough. Can someone second this? It's fairly important to the polymorpher build I'm working on.
hogarth 09-27-06, 05:39 AM	The Ashworm Dragoon from Sandstorm gets a class ability which lets them go with their mounts while the mount is burrowing- so I don't think this is something you can do with ride.... I didn't think it would be allowed either, but I thought the same thing about climbing mounts, too.
Macbrea 09-27-06, 09:38 AM	I need to make sure this is an acceptable purchace based off the rules: Izumi is buying a 10ft pole (2sp) + 20 Bells (20gp). I plan on listing it on her character sheet as follows: Skills - 02 Move SilentlyDex [0 Ranks] [Banner Pole makes Listen Checks vs DC -10] Equipment 20 Bells mounted on Banner Pole(On back)[20gp 2sp][8 lbs]
McJarvis 09-27-06, 11:09 AM	I didn't think it would be allowed either, but I thought the same thing about climbing mounts, too. I can't think of any examples of mounting climbing//acrobatic flight mounts in the books....ashworm dragoon is only because I just bought sandstorm last week :-)
Macbrea 09-27-06, 01:27 PM	Giant owl has the ability to do a wingover for flight. This would seem a very silly maneuver if the saddle didn't have the capabilities of holding the person into the saddle.
tunagolem 09-29-06, 04:24 AM	This is Shphiphon (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9998476) Taken from the prison thread: Originally Posted by NiQil This character is listed at ECL 3, but does not add in it's racial hit dice to it's ECL. Originally Posted by tunagolem If a PC has less than 1 racial HD, it is swiched by the class HD. Shfifon has no writen benefit from the 1/4 HD, no hp, skill points, BAB, BSV or feats, and therefore has done no violation of this type (it is posible that a 35,000 char doc, without a normal program to process it, will have lots of mistakes). ECL=1 [rogue] +2 LA +0 halfling HD +0 viper HD =3! Originally Posted by MindWandererB Unfortunately, that's not the way it works for lycanthropes. See the wererat in the SRD/MM for an example.Benefit or not, you can't have a fractional ECL, so you round up. Fair? Maybe, maybe not. But that's the rule. The dire rat has 1 HD, and it doesn't say anywhere that you round up half HD. They should be replaced by class HD. Any way who makes the decisions if the SRD isn't clear? If a rule isn't clear, post it in the 'ask an elder' thread, where it will be debated and ruled on. Can you decide?
Vathelokai 09-29-06, 05:18 AM	Lycanthropes are humanoid; the only change is the 'shapechanger' subtype they gain, so lets look...Humanoid Type: A humanoid usually has two arms, two legs, and one head, or a humanlike torso, arms, and a head.... Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class.Hit Dice and Hit Points: Same as the base creature plus those of the base animal. To calculate total hit points, apply Constitution modifiers according to the score the lycanthrope has in each form.Hit Dice This line gives the creature’s number and type of Hit Dice, and lists any bonus hit points. A parenthetical note gives the average hit points for a creature of the indicated number of Hit Dice. A creature’s Hit Dice total is also treated as its level for determining how spells affect the creature, its rate of natural healing, and its maximum ranks in a skill.So basicly, we are in uncharted territory. Tunagollems arguement that the dire rat has one full HD is true. There is no example that I can find that shows a fractional HD lycanthrope. I cannot find a reference that backs MWBs arguement that all fractional HD are rounded up. Since the PC in question is a humanoid, should it's 1 HD be replaced with a class lv, even if that one HD is an 'animal' HD. Perhaps I'm mis-reading something.
Abyssal Stalker 09-29-06, 05:21 AM	I don't have a source-books to these topic, but are there special rules for drows riding their lizards or spiders? If not, then an exotic saddle should be enough. It is also said that a character riding a creature that is ill-suited as a mount, takes a -5 penalty to his ride checks. I would say that if something, then a viper is ill-suited as a mount. Or maybe an ooze.
Pittbull 09-29-06, 06:02 AM	My opinion: I think, we should round up. There should be a minimum of one animal HD.
Zevox 09-29-06, 08:06 AM	Might I point out, Vath, that you have the answer to your own question in that question? You pointed out that the rules say that "Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class." You then mentioned that the Wererat is based on the Dire Rat, which has 1 HD, and that it has 1 animal HD. If Lycanthropes were to follow that rule and drop anything less than 2 HD for class levels, wouldn't the Wererat have no animal HD? The defining fact, from my perspective, is that it says humanoids trade in thier Humanoid hit dice if its only 1. A Lycanthrope's animal HD is not a Humanoid hit dice, even though it is humanoid in type - in every way it is treated as an animal hit dice. Thus, it is not dropped. With that bit of information, I'd guess that fractional HD wouldn't be treated differently. And since you gain HD as a PC, they'd certainly have to be rounded up to 1, unless you think Lycanthropes with 1 1/2 HD are feasible (boy wouldn't that throw the ECL for a loop?). Zevox
McJarvis 09-29-06, 11:22 AM	It is also said that a character riding a creature that is ill-suited as a mount, takes a -5 penalty to his ride checks. I would say that if something, then a viper is ill-suited as a mount. Or maybe an ooze. This sort of thing is pretty important to my character...I'm willing to do the viper if it's just an exotic mount, but ill-suited would be bad enough to deter me from mounting it...
Macbrea 09-29-06, 11:23 AM	Guess, we could go with the basics of the game: Rounding Fractions In general, if you wind up with a fraction, round down, even if the fraction is one-half or larger. Exception: Certain rolls, such as damage and hit points, have a minimum of 1.
Traevanon 09-29-06, 11:29 AM	Ironically, that doesnt quite clear it up Macbrea. We might very well be dealing with a minimum of 1, and words like "such as" dont quite lead to concrete decisions.
SauroGrenom 09-29-06, 11:37 AM	I've looked over the details of the lycanthrope question. What I see is that the animal HD are added to the HD of the base creature. This means that the HD of the character is equal to 1 rogue HD and the viper HD summed. The animal HD are not replaced by character classes as is the case with humanoids of 1HD or less. I suppose the question is wheter the 1/4 HD is rounded up or rounded down for the purpose of ECL and HD dependant effects. It is clear to me that if the character gets 1HD for any purpose, it counts as 1HD for all purposes. So the character gets HP, saves and skills as if it's a typical HD. If the creature in question gets any of these it should also get the rest. Looking at the tiny viper I see it has saves that are typical for a 1HD creature and crazy high skills for a 1HD animal. Since the template requies animal HD, I'm going to rule that the character must have 1 animal HD to qualify for the template. I can understand that being tiny is a part of the character concept. But the template assumes you have animal HD, and we are going to calculate ECL using fractions of HD as if they are full HD. I'm not sure if we should allow this character to have the tiny size (and the resulting 1hp for the HD), or simply require that the animal in question has at least 1HD. But clearly the character will have 1 animal HD for the purposes of ECL. I'm leaning toward requiring the base animal to have at least 1HD. In this case we are basicially talking about a baby viper being tiny with 1/4 HD. Unless you are a baby Halfling as well, I should think that you will be a full grown viper in viper form.
McJarvis 09-29-06, 11:47 AM	Unless you are a baby Halfling as well, I should think that you will be a full grown viper in viper form. That kinda makes me want to make a baby halfling were-viper.
SauroGrenom 09-29-06, 12:17 PM	That kinda makes me want to make a baby halfling were-viper. You won't like the stat penalties. I can look them up. It was in an article online from the wizards site.
McJarvis 09-29-06, 12:20 PM	You won't like the stat penalties. I can look them up. It was in an article online from the wizards site. I could make his theme "always losing at CoCo" ;)
MindWandererB 09-29-06, 01:34 PM	I don't think Tiny vipers are necessarily babies. They're adult snakes that just cap out at between 1 and 2 feet long. Plenty of real-world examples. My statement that HD are rounded up in this case was based on CoCo precedent (someone tried this once before). But here's my point: a creature with 1/4 HD gets: 1 HD worth of skill ranks 1 HD worth of feats (namely, 1) 1 HD worth of base save bonuses 1/4 HD worth of HP An indeterminite advancement for BAB and attribute bonuses. So, it gets mostly the full benefits of one HD except for the HP. I would personally rule that it's an eligible choice, but that it counts as one full HD for all purposes except HP (which is 1). I could possibly see even just making it a full HD and granting 2.5 HP instead. But it's definitely worth at least 1.
hogarth 09-30-06, 08:53 AM	After his fight this week, my elf will level up to a lvl 4 ranger. This gives him an animal companion. According to the SRD... [Blah, blah, blah...A crocodile is a possible 1st-level animal companion.] My question is this: Would I be permitted to give him a crocodile as his companion, since it does have a base land speed, and not just a swim speed? By the way, I noticed a comment on another forum that the crocodile has been deleted from the list of 1st-level animal companions in newer printings of the PHB. It's another stealth errata like fixing the price for the staff of fire, I guess. Here's the thread I'm referring to: http://boards.d20srd.org/viewtopic.php?t=392
MindWandererB 09-30-06, 01:28 PM	By the way, I noticed a comment on another forum that the crocodile has been deleted from the list of 1st-level animal companions in newer printings of the PHB. It's another stealth errata like fixing the price for the staff of fire, I guess. Here's the thread I'm referring to: http://boards.d20srd.org/viewtopic.php?t=392 These errata that didn't make it into the errata, but did make it into the Special Edition PHB, are really starting to tick me off.
tunagolem 10-01-06, 10:06 AM	Lycanthropes are humanoid; the only change is the 'shapechanger' subtype they gain, so lets look... Quote: Originally Posted by SRD: Types, Subtypes, and special abilities: Humanoid Humanoid Type: A humanoid usually has two arms, two legs, and one head, or a humanlike torso, arms, and a head.... Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class. Quote: Originally Posted by SRD: Monsters: Lycanthrope: creating a lycanthrope Hit Dice and Hit Points: Same as the base creature plus those of the base animal. To calculate total hit points, apply Constitution modifiers according to the score the lycanthrope has in each form. Quote: Originally Posted by SRD: Monsters Hit Dice This line gives the creature’s number and type of Hit Dice, and lists any bonus hit points. A parenthetical note gives the average hit points for a creature of the indicated number of Hit Dice. A creature’s Hit Dice total is also treated as its level for determining how spells affect the creature, its rate of natural healing, and its maximum ranks in a skill. So basicly, we are in uncharted territory. Tunagollems arguement that the dire rat has one full HD is true. There is no example that I can find that shows a fractional HD lycanthrope. I cannot find a reference that backs MWBs arguement that all fractional HD are rounded up. Since the PC in question is a humanoid, should it's 1 HD be replaced with a class lv, even if that one HD is an 'animal' HD. Perhaps I'm mis-reading something. My opinion: I think, we should round up. There should be a minimum of one animal HD. Might I point out, Vath, that you have the answer to your own question in that question? You pointed out that the rules say that "Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class." You then mentioned that the Wererat is based on the Dire Rat, which has 1 HD, and that it has 1 animal HD. If Lycanthropes were to follow that rule and drop anything less than 2 HD for class levels, wouldn't the Wererat have no animal HD? The defining fact, from my perspective, is that it says humanoids trade in their Humanoid hit dice if its only 1. A Lycanthrope's animal HD is not a Humanoid hit dice, even though it is humanoid in type - in every way it is treated as an animal hit dice. Thus, it is not dropped. With that bit of information, I'd guess that fractional HD wouldn't be treated differently. And since you gain HD as a PC, they'd certainly have to be rounded up to 1, unless you think Lycanthropes with 1 1/2 HD are feasible (boy wouldn't that throw the ECL for a loop?). Who is the authority?
Zevox 10-01-06, 10:31 AM	Who is the authority? That would be the Elders, two of which (Pittbull and SauroGrenom [whom you missed in your quotes]) ruled that you must have a minmum of 1 animal HD as a Lycanthrope. Zevox
SauroGrenom 10-01-06, 12:13 PM	The other three Elders are Huan and King Uther who are MIA right now. I'm not sure where they went. NiQil is also an elder and makes our number 5. He is around and active.
SauroGrenom 10-01-06, 12:17 PM	My point is that the template requires that you have an animal HD. So you need animal HD to qualify for the template. Also I agree with MindWandererB that fractional HD appear to give all the benefits of a whole HD except decreased HP. Thus I'd allow you to choose a fractional HD if you realy want the size decrease, but it counts as a full HD for the purpose of ECL and HD dependant effects. Edit: A strict reading of the rules would require any base animal to have atleast 1 HD to apply the template since the template requires Animal HD and the logical minimum is 1 HD. However I think we can be more permissive and allow you to have fractional HD. Since it counts as 1 HD in all but one respect, it counts as 1 HD with repect to ECL and HD dependant effects. The only difference is the deminished HP and size of the creature.
Zevox 10-01-06, 01:03 PM	The other three Elders are Huan and King Uther who are MIA right now. I'm not sure where they went. NiQil is also an elder and makes our number 5. He is around and active. From Huan's response to my original PM asking if he'd be interested in having Nell go on his current Guild action, it seems he simply has very little time due to work these days. And if you'll recall King Uther has gone into a sort of psuedo-retirement - all hes doing here now is running his campaign, Asran's quests, and occassionally RPing over at the EHTC thread. Zevox
tunagolem 10-02-06, 05:13 PM	Thanks, I'll remove the rogue level. What is EHTC?
MindWandererB 10-02-06, 09:20 PM	Thanks, I'll remove the rogue level. What is EHTC? I'm afraid that won't work, either--you must have one non-animal level to be a lycanthrope--take a look at the "creating a lycanthrope" section of the MM. EHTC is the East Habari Trading Company, one of the guilds.
lonewolf 10-04-06, 04:18 PM	Can Silversheen be applied to a natural weapon?
SauroGrenom 10-04-06, 04:29 PM	Can Silversheen be applied to a natural weapon? I see no reason that it couldn't.
MindWandererB 10-04-06, 05:43 PM	I see no reason that it couldn't. Because nearly all effects that target a weapon (magic weapon, align weapon, keen edge, etc.) do specify that natural weapons don't work. And in many cases (like prevenom weapon), there's no reason to have a "claw" version if the "weapon" version works on natural weapons.
NiQil 10-04-06, 05:55 PM	Because nearly all effects that target a weapon (magic weapon, align weapon, keen edge, etc.) do specify that natural weapons don't work. And in many cases (like prevenom weapon), there's no reason to have a "claw" version if the "weapon" version works on natural weapons. Your own reasoning says that it is, therefore, ok, as this item does *not specify that natural weapons will not work. The last line of the item description that appears to be the cause for this question is not a qualifier on what weapons will work, as I see it. It is a determination of what quantity of silversheen is necessary to use on a given item.
tunagolem 10-05-06, 04:28 AM	I'm afraid that won't work, either--you must have one non-animal level to be a lycanthrope--take a look at the "creating a lycanthrope" section of the MM. EHTC is the East Habari Trading Company, one of the guilds. So he can't be taken out of prison at all? Can I just delete him?
MindWandererB 10-05-06, 02:33 PM	So he can't be taken out of prison at all? Can I just delete him? That's what you'll have to do.
McJarvis 10-05-06, 02:37 PM	That's what you'll have to do. The character doesn't even have a fight record yet. Just change his race//any other stats you want to something legal. Technically tantamount to deletion...but not quite. :-)
Maraxus 10-06-06, 12:14 PM	Okay, I did not know, it is an question, but: About the Monk's Belt Belt, Monk’s This simple rope belt, when wrapped around a character’s waist, confers great ability in unarmed combat. The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the belt lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus. I think, the point is: What is "the AC of a 5th level Monk"? Obviously a wish-twisting genie would say, that there are many 5th level monks out in the world with diffrent ACs and simply pick one. So what does this feature is intended to do? On the Monk-table, there is an AC bonus of only +1 listed but in the ability description it reads: AC Bonus (Ex) When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level). It looks like anyone saying, that the belt does not add wisdom to AC could back this up by the fact, that the bonus from wis and from the level are added separatly. However, I'd like to argue, that the item does not say, it only gives the bonus from the level, so it gives the whole ability under "AC Bonus (Ex)" SauroGrenom has added in the Fight of the week thread, that the priceing of Belt suggests, that it is only meant to provide a +1 unnamed bonus, however I answer, that with the limitation that it's a bonus you only get when not wearing armor, a shield or a medium encumbrance, as a non-monk the bonus has a right to be higher.
Pittbull 10-06-06, 02:38 PM	I always thought it is an item especially for monks and it's main power is to make them 5 level higher for their certain abilities. For non-monks it has only a minor effect: +1AC (un-named bonus) and unarmed damage. I would say, it doesn't give a wisdom-bonus to a non-monk, but I'm willing to change my mind, also. I hope, a lot of people give their input.
lonewolf 10-06-06, 02:46 PM	The belt gives the armor bonus of a 5th level monk and a 5th level monk adds Wisdom to AC. I see both sides of the argument, but I stand firmly on that side.
MindWandererB 10-06-06, 02:49 PM	The belt gives the armor bonus of a 5th level monk and a 5th level monk adds Wisdom to AC. I see both sides of the argument, but I stand firmly on that side. This is a problem stemming from the 3.5 conversion. Prior to that, the monk's ability was not described as including the Wis bonus (they were two seperate things), so the belt added only the +1. But since those two abilities were combined under one name, any effect that grants that ability grants the entire ability, not just part of it. Probably not RAI, but it's RAW.
Maraxus 10-06-06, 03:19 PM	This is a problem stemming from the 3.5 conversion. Prior to that, the monk's ability was not described as including the Wis bonus (they were two seperate things), so the belt added only the +1. But since those two abilities were combined under one name, any effect that grants that ability grants the entire ability, not just part of it. Probably not RAI, but it's RAW. You are right about the monk, but you should also look at the belt. Belt, Monk’s This simple rope belt, when wrapped around a character’s waist, confers great ability in unarmed combat. Any time the wearer engages in unarmed combat, the belt grants him or her the ability to use both hands as though the wearer possessed the Ambidexterity and Two-Weapon Fighting feats. The wearer may also make a stunning attack (as a monk) once per day. If donned by a monk, the belt grants one additional stunning attack per day and allows the monk to haste him or herself once per day for up to 10 consecutive rounds. Caster Level: 12th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, haste, righteous might or transformation; Market Price: 9,000 gp; Weight: 1 lb. There is no conversion, the new 3.5 Monk's Belt was made totally new, with the new 3.5 Monk in mind.
McJarvis 10-06-06, 03:32 PM	I think a monk's belt being of more use to clerics than monks is bunk. Make it only the listed AC bonus and not +wis. Doesn't CoCo usually er on the safe//non-power-favorable side of rules that are not clear from the get-go? :) Feelings aside, though. Belt, Monk’s This simple rope belt, when wrapped around a character’s waist, confers great ability in unarmed combat. The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the belt lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus. AC Bonus (Ex) When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level). While both wis and the bonus are listed under AC Bonus, it speaks of the AC bonus differently. At the very least, I'm pretty sure the Cleric Archer builds with Zen Archery over on the Char Op boards don't have monk belts as standard equipment, which would also indicate that it doesn't grant wis to ac. (since cleric archers are pretty much geared around wisdom)
MindWandererB 10-06-06, 03:39 PM	You are right about the monk, but you should also look at the belt. There is no conversion, the new 3.5 Monk's Belt was made totally new, with the new 3.5 Monk in mind. Huh. I never actually checked that. You're quite right. @McJarvis: It's not usually that useful to clerics, since outside the CoCo, most clerics (who aren't Mystic Theurges) wear armor, making the AC bonus inapplicable. It's just a fluke around here, where almost all the clerics use arcane scrolls.
McJarvis 10-06-06, 03:45 PM	@McJarvis: It's not usually that useful to clerics, since outside the CoCo, most clerics (who aren't Mystic Theurges) wear armor, making the AC bonus inapplicable. It's just a fluke around here, where almost all the clerics use arcane scrolls. By the time a cleric could afford a monk's belt his wisdom is probably going to be 22+.(how high? I'm unfamiliar with levels that monk's belt would apply to) Regardless, I'd rather go unarmored and take no acp or max dex bonus & also have the AC bonus to touch attacks. A +6 isn't bad for an armor bonus...probably more. (in fact, it's pretty damn good I think...) Add on a casting of Magic Vestment...you've replaced your armor, and it's better.(I think...again, used to lower levels. I can only imagine that maintaining a high touch ac gets more important as you level)
hogarth 10-06-06, 03:45 PM	Huh. I never actually checked that. You're quite right. @McJarvis: It's not usually that useful to clerics, since outside the CoCo, most clerics (who aren't Mystic Theurges) wear armor, making the AC bonus inapplicable. It's just a fluke around here, where almost all the clerics use arcane scrolls. I've usually seen it touted more for wild-shaped druids; most animals have a waist of some sort, so it's quite a bit cheaper than getting the Wild enchantment on your armor.
MindWandererB 10-06-06, 03:58 PM	I've usually seen it touted more for wild-shaped druids; most animals have a waist of some sort, so it's quite a bit cheaper than getting the Wild enchantment on your armor. Doesn't work anymore. Wild Shaping now costs you 100% of your equipment (without the non-core Wilding Clasps, anyway).
hogarth 10-06-06, 04:01 PM	Doesn't work anymore. Wild Shaping now costs you 100% of your equipment (without the non-core Wilding Clasps, anyway). You have to do it in a few steps now: 1) drop belt on ground 2) turn into animal 3) put on belt (either by yourself, if you're an ape/dire ape, or get another party member/hireling to help you) Annoying, but still possible.
McJarvis 10-06-06, 04:03 PM	You have to do it in a few steps now: 1) drop belt on ground 2) turn into animal 3) put on belt (either by yourself, if you're an ape/dire ape, or get another party member/hireling to help you) Annoying, but still possible. Minor item of unseen servant. Fixed.
Maraxus 10-06-06, 04:17 PM	By the time a cleric could afford a monk's belt his wisdom is probably going to be 22+.(how high? I'm unfamiliar with levels that monk's belt would apply to) Regardless, I'd rather go unarmored and take no acp or max dex bonus & also have the AC bonus to touch attacks. A +6 isn't bad for an armor bonus...probably more. (in fact, it's pretty damn good I think...) Add on a casting of Magic Vestment...you've replaced your armor, and it's better.(I think...again, used to lower levels. I can only imagine that maintaining a high touch ac gets more important as you level) Magic Vestment enchants an armor or shield, no belt, even if it grands an AC bonus. So Magic Vestment is a good reason for clerics not to take the Monk's Belt. Druids however ... yes, it makes sense, that druids, that are able to stay in wild-shaped form the whole day get's a large Monk's Belt to put on, after the transformation. Very specific, isn't it? And if you are changing into Polar- and Dire bear (Not everybody likes the kitten), your Dex is set to 13 anyway, making +3 dragonscale full-plate barding (roughtly same price) resulting in more netto AC, unless your Wisdom is 30 (And even as a druid, that's unlikely). PS: :D what NPC service is "help me put on my barding, once I'm a bear" anyway. Sounds like an very interesting job. :D
hogarth 10-06-06, 04:31 PM	Druids however ... yes, it makes sense, that druids, that are able to stay in wild-shaped form the whole day get's a large Monk's Belt to put on, after the transformation. Magic items resize, in general, so a monk's belt would fit any creature (large or small). Very specific, isn't it? And if you are changing into Polar- and Dire bear (Not everybody likes the kitten), your Dex is set to 13 anyway, making +3 dragonscale full-plate barding (roughtly same price) resulting in more netto AC, unless your Wisdom is 30 (And even as a druid, that's unlikely). I think many DM's would rule that barding is not "one size fits all" (like a monk's belt would be), so large barding for a bear-shaped animal wouldn't fit a dire bat, for instance. YMMV. Also note that a monk's belt stacks with a mage armor spell from your friendly neighbourhood mage (or a potion of mage armor, if your neighbourhood mage isn't that friendly) which adds up to some decent AC.
MindWandererB 10-06-06, 04:32 PM	Minor item of unseen servant. Fixed. Oh, yeah, I'd love to see that one. Druid: "Come and help me, my magical servant!" <activates item> Unseen servant: <appears> "What would you like me to do, master?" Druid: "Hold on." <Wildshapes into bear> Unseen servant: "What would you like me to do, master?" Druid: "Groowl! Grr-oo! Rrr." Unseen servant: "...."
SauroGrenom 10-06-06, 04:58 PM	About this belt thing... I've read the item description. I've read carfully the description of the monk class. The effects of this belt comes down to asnwering the following question: What counts as a "Monk's AC Bonus". There are a few details to consider. First is that the "Table: The Monk" indicates an AC bonus. Also the description below the table indicates an additional AC bonus due to wisdom. The item description is not clear as to which AC bonus it refers to or both of them. So we must judge for ourselves what counts as the "Monk's AC Bonus" in the item description. I'm reminded of the Monster Manual Errata that tells us to consider primary sources over secondary rules sources. The stat block of a monster is primary over the descriptive text. So if there is a discrepancy, then the stat block is correct. I think we should apply this rule as well in this case, and it indicates that text takes precidence over a table. So the wis AC bonus is in. I must say that this makes the item overpowered in my opinion, but that's RAW.
Pittbull 10-06-06, 08:37 PM	I would like to see a poll in this case, not only by the Elders, but by all the experienced members. I'm going to say the same as Sauro said. After all the comments, I would say the wis is added, but then the item is overpowered. If wis is added, Barthleby will have one soon too, don't forget, you can cast magic vestment on your cloth too.
MindWandererB 10-06-06, 08:53 PM	If wis is added, Barthleby will have one soon too, don't forget, you can cast magic vestment on your cloth too.I have mixed feelings about this: An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell.When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. It's just a tad ambiguous whether Magic Vestments count as armor. Of course, there's always a potion/scroll of Mage Armor, which is every bit as effective as Magic Vestment.
NiQil 10-06-06, 10:38 PM	Monk's Belt: I am firmly in the camp that allows the Wis bonus as well. Why? One simple reason. According to the rules on primary sources, text always trumps tables. Period. Sorry Sauro...but you are incorrect there. You have it backwards, as shown here: Errata Rule: Primary Sources When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. The DMG and MM have similar errata quotes. The text includes the Wis bonus, while the table does not. Therefore, the Wis bonus is provided by a monk's belt.
McJarvis 10-06-06, 11:04 PM	As always, the part I really really want you to read is in green Magic Vestment enchants an armor or shield, no belt, even if it grands an AC bonus. So Magic Vestment is a good reason for clerics not to take the Monk's Belt. Magic vestment can be cast on clothing. Clothing does not impede Monk's ability to grant wis to AC. Magic Vestment also grants an enhancement bonus, which means it's particularly useful to clerics with monk's belt and NOT clerics with magical armor. Concerning this @MW: Magical Vestment specifically says it counts are armor "for the purposes of this spell". Thus it doesn't count as armor for the "purposes of anything else". :) Of course, with the Magic domain it becomes a mute point with scrolls of Mage Armor(Mage Armor is better) lying around...but at least this way you get your own caster level to the hour/level mod. :) Oh, yeah, I'd love to see that one. Druid: "Come and help me, my magical servant!" <activates item> Unseen servant: <appears> "What would you like me to do, master?" Druid: "Hold on." <Wildshapes into bear> Unseen servant: "What would you like me to do, master?" Druid: "Groowl! Grr-oo! Rrr." Unseen servant: "...." Nothing in Unseen servant says it is language dependant, if I'm not mistaken. As far as AC bonuses are concerned: The text says that wisdom mod is added to AC, but it never says it's a bonus. That may be cutting hairs, but only the class-defined AC bonus is defined as a bonus.(other than the fact that the ability itself is named "AC Bonus") But I digress. Ultimately I see the problem as this item being more or less invaluable to high wis Clerics, though apparently you guys disagree. Using Pittbull's level 10 character (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5203496) as an example: The Monk's belt would effectively add 9 to his AC, all of it applying to both flatfooted AC and touch. Cleric's vestment will add an additional 2. That's an effective +11 to his AC. To compare, he could wear a mithril +5 breastplate, but that would cost in excess of 27,000 gp(don't have exact figure here) & still wouldn't apply the +9 part of it to touch attacks. He could split the cost between armor and shield, but with the monk's belt he can have both hands free: thus making the incomparibility even greater. Needless to say, I don't think PittBull's character is an isolated example of what the belt could do for cleric's //and// druids. It should be primarily for monks.
MindWandererB 10-07-06, 12:00 AM	Nothing in Unseen servant says it is language dependant, if I'm not mistaken.[/color]Not specifically, but it does say you have to "tell" it what to. Since the control requires speech of some kind, you have to be able to speak. That doesn't mean it's language-dependent (much like you don't need to be able to speak any particular language to use a verbal component), but some sort of speech is clearly necessary.
NiQil 10-07-06, 12:11 AM	As always, the part I really really want you to read is in green Magic vestment can be cast on clothing. Clothing does not impede Monk's ability to grant wis to AC. Magic Vestment also grants an enhancement bonus, which means it's particularly useful to clerics with monk's belt and NOT clerics with magical armor. Concerning this @MW: Magical Vestment specifically says it counts are armor "for the purposes of this spell". Thus it doesn't count as armor for the "purposes of anything else". :) Of course, with the Magic domain it becomes a mute point with scrolls of Mage Armor(Mage Armor is better) lying around...but at least this way you get your own caster level to the hour/level mod. :) Nothing in Unseen servant says it is language dependant, if I'm not mistaken. As far as AC bonuses are concerned: The text says that wisdom mod is added to AC, but it never says it's a bonus. That may be cutting hairs, but only the class-defined AC bonus is defined as a bonus.(other than the fact that the ability itself is named "AC Bonus") But I digress. Ultimately I see the problem as this item being more or less invaluable to high wis Clerics, though apparently you guys disagree. Using Pittbull's level 10 character (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5203496) as an example: The Monk's belt would effectively add 9 to his AC, all of it applying to both flatfooted AC and touch. Cleric's vestment will add an additional 2. That's an effective +11 to his AC. To compare, he could wear a mithril +5 breastplate, but that would cost in excess of 27,000 gp(don't have exact figure here) & still wouldn't apply the +9 part of it to touch attacks. He could split the cost between armor and shield, but with the monk's belt he can have both hands free: thus making the incomparibility even greater. Needless to say, I don't think PittBull's character is an isolated example of what the belt could do for cleric's //and// druids. It should be primarily for monks. It *is primarily for monks. It just happens to benefit any other class that values wisdom also. Keep in mind, what you are suggesting regarding Pittbull's character is where his AC SHOULD be. At level 10, if you do not have an AC of at least 30 at level 10, you are way behind the game, in my opinion. As for the whole Unseen Servant thing...wouldn't it just be easier to give it instructions before the druid changes? "Yes master?" "Use these clasps to put this on me after I turn into a lion." I'm not familiar with the spell, so I don't know if that would be limited or not, but would seem far easier to me. Bottom line, by my reading of the RAW and rules on primary sources, a monk's belt provides the Wis to AC bonus to anyone that wears it.
MindWandererB 10-07-06, 12:26 AM	Also consider: a cleric is assumed to be wearing heavy armor and a shield, and a druid, medium armor and a shield. A +11 AC for 13,000 GP (and a spell with a limited, though long, duration) should be compared to the +12 AC for 13,503 gp that a +3 breastplate and +2 shield (or vice-versa) would net you--or if you go with full plate, you can get +14 AC for a mere 9803 gp. Oh, and with the Belt, you can't get nifty special effects if you want them (give me the Blinding quality with 20' speed over a 30' speed and a free hand in most cases). If you really want the 30' speed, you can get +2 Mithral breastplate and a +2 heavy shield for 12,503--coincidentally, that's a +11 AC bonus. Color me unimpressed.
McJarvis 10-07-06, 12:56 AM	Also consider: a cleric is assumed to be wearing heavy armor and a shield, and a druid, medium armor and a shield. A +11 AC for 13,000 GP (and a spell with a limited, though long, duration) should be compared to the +12 AC for 13,503 gp that a +3 breastplate and +2 shield (or vice-versa) would net you--or if you go with full plate, you can get +14 AC for a mere 9803 gp. Oh, and with the Belt, you can't get nifty special effects if you want them (give me the Blinding quality with 20' speed over a 30' speed and a free hand in most cases). If you really want the 30' speed, you can get +2 Mithral breastplate and a +2 heavy shield for 12,503--coincidentally, that's a +11 AC bonus. Color me unimpressed. Yeah, you're right. The Monk's belt applying the AC bonus to touch AC as well as flat footed AC/reg Ac, complete lack of ACP, probable increased movement rate, auto-upgradability as you up your wisdom, & free hand to work with ranged weapons like bows/xbows probably isn't worth paying less(or around the same price) for. I bet most people would prefere armor and a shield so they can make their opponents make DC 14 reflex saves with blinding & use that belt item slot. I bet most people wouldn't even be interested in making use of the Craft Wondrous Item feat(since it doesn't see play very often in CoCo) to make a monk's belt for 6,500gp & two weeks of sitting out. And I'm sure most clerics wouldn't use the magic domain to gain access to mage armor(if not using cleric vestment) and shield, to gain a further +6-8 AC. :) ;) **** Regardless, I don't care *that* much...I just thought it'd be nice to explore the possibilities & whatnot. If wis gets applied to AC, I will gladly finally give in and make a Cleric char since I'm a particular fan of Sacred Fists in RL DnD. :)
McJarvis 10-07-06, 01:05 AM	Not specifically, but it does say you have to "tell" it what to. Since the control requires speech of some kind, you have to be able to speak. That doesn't mean it's language-dependent (much like you don't need to be able to speak any particular language to use a verbal component), but some sort of speech is clearly necessary. Unseen servant does not specify what languages it understands, so I must conclude it understands all of them or only common. If all of them, it can understand animals. The language of animals is not a standard language per-se, but Forest Gnomes can use it to convey simple meanings.
Ravashack 10-07-06, 02:05 AM	And I'm sure most clerics wouldn't use the magic domain to gain access to mage armor(if not using cleric vestment) and shield, to gain a further +6-8 AC. :) Except, if you have Mage Armor on, you aren't unarmored anymore. Ditto with Magical Vestment.
MindWandererB 10-07-06, 02:05 AM	Yeah, you're right. The Monk's belt applying the AC bonus to touch AC as well as flat footed AC/reg Ac, complete lack of ACP, probable increased movement rate, auto-upgradability as you up your wisdom, & free hand to work with ranged weapons like bows/xbows probably isn't worth paying less(or around the same price) for. I bet most people would prefere armor and a shield so they can make their opponents make DC 14 reflex saves with blinding & use that belt item slot. I bet most people wouldn't even be interested in making use of the Craft Wondrous Item feat(since it doesn't see play very often in CoCo) to make a monk's belt for 6,500gp & two weeks of sitting out. And I'm sure most clerics wouldn't use the magic domain to gain access to mage armor(if not using cleric vestment) and shield, to gain a further +6-8 AC. :)The boost to touch AC is good, and so is the free hand. The movement rate is moot--if you want it, go with the mithral breastplate at no extra charge. The free hand, okay, I'll grant you. But the armor option has advantages, too: it can be uggraded a whole lot more in the long run (at least +6 more than I described, plus special abilities), and it does free up that belt slot (and clerics in most games can benefit a lot from a belt of Giant Strength). Most TT games don't involve abusive, expendable-burning Magic domain clerics like this environment does, and a high-level Magic Vestment provides more of a boost than Mage Armor, so that doesn't worry me quite so much. On the other hand, there are Bracers of Armor +8. ...and just to point out where I stand, I have an AC-maxing cleric in the arena even now. I played around with the numbers: a Magic (and Plant) domain cleric could get an AC as high as 56 offhand (Bracers +8, Shield spell +4, base Dex +3, Gloves of Dex +3, Monk's Belt +12 [Wis base 16+6 Periapt +5 advancement +5 Tome = 32], Shield of Faith/Ring of Protection +5, Alter Self +6, Barkskin +5), while a similar cleric with Plant and something else could get only 43 (+5 full plate +13, +5 heavy shield +7, Dex +3 [Max], Shield of Faith/Ring of Protection +5, Barkskin +5). And it is quite easy to see that the Monk's Belt is a nigh-essential part of that combo. (Of course, it requires only 1-2 temporary and dispellable effects on the latter, and 3-4 on the former, one of which is quite short-acting). So yes, I'm aware that this is probably a tad unbalanced. But in the hands of anyone other than an optimizer, it's not overwhelmingly so. Unseen servant does not specify what languages it understands, so I must conclude it understands all of them or only common. If all of them, it can understand animals. The language of animals is not a standard language per-se, but Forest Gnomes can use it to convey simple meanings.Automatic Languages: Gnome, Elven, Sylvan, and a simple language that enables them to communicate on a very basic level with forest animals (this replaces the rock gnome’s speak with animals ability). Maybe... would you rule the Tongues spell the same way?This spell grants the creature touched the ability to speak and understand the language of any intelligent creature, whether it is a racial tongue or a regional dialect. The subject can speak only one language at a time, although it may be able to understand several languages. Tongues does not enable the subject to speak with creatures who don’t speak.Now, granted, Tongues does say "any intelligent creature." But it seems that unintelligent creatures don't speak, by definition. Oddly, the description of Intelligence doesn't actually say that you need a 3 Int to speak, although it does imply that. Edit: Just thought of something else: changing shape doesn't grant you the language of your new form! So even if you have the voice of a bear, you don't "speak bear." You couldn't communicate with another bear; you have no language that your mouth and larynx can actually produce. Unless you're a forest gnome, maybe. Except, if you have Mage Armor on, you aren't unarmored anymore. Ditto with Magical Vestment.Just because they grant armor bonuses to AC doesn't make them armor. No one's ever objected to monks using Mage Armor, Inertial Armor, or Bracers of Armor before.
Ravashack 10-07-06, 02:43 AM	Just because they grant armor bonuses to AC doesn't make them armor. No one's ever objected to monks using Mage Armor, Inertial Armor, or Bracers of Armor before. I'm not even looking at that part. Unlike mundane armor, mage armor entails no armor check penalty, arcane spell failure chance, or speed reduction. Since mage armor is made of force, incorporeal creatures can’t bypass it the way they do normal armor. If it wasn't armor, why is there a need to differentiate it from mundane armor? Armor made from force is still armor. Inertial Armor has completely identical wording, only psionically flavored. You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5 at 20th level). An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell. The spell only works on armor, and it counts an outfit as armor for the spell.
NiQil 10-07-06, 03:09 AM	So are you saying, then, that bracers of armor are also armor, since they are based from the mage armor spell? Can you tell me what proficiency you would need to have as a PC to be proficient with mage armor? Mage armor is not armor. It provides an armor bonus to AC, and it has the word armor in it's name, but it is not armor because it does not appear in the armor section of the PHB, nor on any armor table in existance that I am aware of. Just because something provides an armor bonus to AC, does not make it armor. By that logic, you should be able to take Weapon Focus (Spiritual Weapon), because it is a weapon of force and not a spell. In answer to your question, there is need to differentiate it from mundane armor to show what mage armor does not do, so that it is not in any way confused with mundane armor. Armor made from force is not armor, because armor made from force does not fall into the armor category of the PHB and is not listed on the armor tables.
McJarvis 10-07-06, 03:31 AM	You're reading Magical Vestment wrong, at the very least. You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5 at 20th level). [An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus] for the purpose of this spell. Reworded: For the purposes of this spell's targeting requirements, clothing is armor that has a +0 armor bonus. (Not "The Clothing is turned into Armor with a +0 armor bonus & an enhancement bonus equal to...") This wording is necessary since the target of the spell is any armor or shield. Read any other way would mean that Monks have to go around naked, since the spell would be redefining clothing as armor that grants no AC bonus. Monk's Belt: There's a good likelyhood, given the language of the item, that the bonus meant for the item was the AC bonus that actually levels up. I think 13,000 gp is reasonable for an item that gives extra stunning/increased fist damage/+1 AC. Of course only a monk would want it.(but the name must mean something) I think that 13,000gp (6,500gp crafted) is obviously misbalanced in the hands of a cleric for an item that adds wis to AC. It's true you can get comparible results from armor/shield, but you have to pay more & get less.(other than options to upgrade with). Also, I'm pretty sure Craft Wondrous Item on cleric's is way more common than craft magical arms & armor, so comparing at the 6,500 gp price is a good idea... Not wearing armor also frees up a robe slot(perhaps some neat custom item?) & you can always get a custom item that gives +str in gauntlets/gloves.(unless you really want those dex enhancers...) Don't get me wrong- I think the RAW states that the belt grants wis to AC.(In fact, I just added it to my CharOp Mr. Icy Hot (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=693624) build) I just don't think such an item would be great in CoCo when interpreted like that. @MW regarding language: Man. I think I was depending on the bad language of the forest gnome to prove my point, so maybe it's something better dealt with only if a druid actually tries it. For all we know it could be a language of hand-gestures and farts. :-)
SauroGrenom 10-07-06, 10:43 AM	...Sorry Sauro...but you are incorrect there. You have it backwards, as shown here:...Isn't that just the same thing I said above in my post? I said I think we should apply this rule as well in this case, and it indicates that text takes precidence over a table. So the wis AC bonus is in. I must say that this makes the item overpowered in my opinion, but that's RAW.
lonewolf 10-07-06, 11:03 AM	Yeah, but you also said: The stat block of a monster is primary over the descriptive text. So if there is a discrepancy, then the stat block is correct. :cool:
SauroGrenom 10-07-06, 11:44 AM	:confused: A character class doesn't have a stat block. I just introduced that fact to point out how I remembered the idea of primary and secondary rules sources. Then I specificially mentioned that text takes presidence over a table. Meh... Forget it, I'm just not communicating very clearly right now.:allalone:
Ravashack 10-07-06, 01:28 PM	Read any other way would mean that Monks have to go around naked, since the spell would be redefining clothing as armor that grants no AC bonus. Ember the PHB monk almost qualifies. ;) But I was reading it as clothes are considered armor while the spell was in effect. NiQil: I don't see why you can't for Spiritual Weapon, if you really used it that much. :) Would seem like a waste of a feat though. But to be honest it sounds to me that the whole point of monks getting that Wis bonus to AC was because of the fact that they can't get that armor bonus from armor (while Natural Armor bonus is definitely fair game). Also, just because something is based off of a spell doesn't mean it is identical to it. Look at a Cube of Force compared to a Wall of Force. (Not relevant now that I think about it) Regardless, I'm just voicing my opinion at this point.
Zelck 10-09-06, 06:55 PM	I've been considering a couple of power changes and a feat change for Andurwin sometime in the future. The problem is that these three changes would cost 15 credits, which is enough to simply rebuild him at a higher ECL. Is there some way to get a discount on this? Say, 5 credits for both of the power changes? By the way, just how would strength interact with a ghost? Do ghosts need high strength to use a (composite) bow without penalty? And do they suffer from encumbrance? Also, was it ever decided whether aging penalties affect ghosts? And, can I take Psicrystal Affinity as a ghost?
hogarth 10-09-06, 07:03 PM	Do ghosts need high strength to use a (composite) bow without penalty? And do they suffer from encumbrance? Yes. Remember that on the Ethereal plane, ghosts are corporeal creatures; as far as I know, there's no special exemption from Str requirements on the Ethereal plane. The only iffy case might be a ghost touch weapon used by a manifesting ghost; the weapon would be on the Prime Material plane, so it shouldn't cause any encumbrance on the Ethereal, I think. Also, was it ever decided whether aging penalties affect ghosts? King Uther claimed that a ghost would get bonuses only and no Dex penalty, but I haven't seen a ruling to that extent. I think it's stupid, personally; if you want the bonuses, you need to accept the penalties too. And, can I take Psicrystal Affinity as a ghost? Why not? (I'm not an Elder, of course, so take my comments with a heapin' helpin' of salt.)
Zelck 10-09-06, 07:14 PM	King Uther claimed that a ghost would get bonuses only and no Dex penalty, but I haven't seen a ruling to that extent. I think it's stupid, personally; if you want the bonuses, you need to accept the penalties too. Right, I do too, but if I can get free bonuses... ;). Why not? Would the psicrystal be ethereal? Would it manifest with me? Would it have a fly speed without being whatever level it usually has to be? EDIT: In addition to those above questions, I'd like to ask what happens if an item leaves a manifesting ghost's possessions, i.e. a ranged weapon being thrown. Does it instantly revert back to the ethereal?
SauroGrenom 10-10-06, 04:11 PM	I've been considering a couple of power changes and a feat change for Andurwin sometime in the future. The problem is that these three changes would cost 15 credits, which is enough to simply rebuild him at a higher ECL. Is there some way to get a discount on this? Say, 5 credits for both of the power changes? By the way, just how would strength interact with a ghost? Do ghosts need high strength to use a (composite) bow without penalty? And do they suffer from encumbrance? Also, was it ever decided whether aging penalties affect ghosts? And, can I take Psicrystal Affinity as a ghost?Problem 1: Cat has increased the cost for most character changes to 10 credits each. I think he is fairly unflexible about this. I would say that since a ghost is ethereal and not fundamentally incorpreal, he needs the strength bonus to use a composite bow. Yes Ghosts suffer encumberance while on the ethereal plane. When manifest they are still fully present on the ethereal plane, and that encumberance is not lifted. Aging penalties and bonuses are linked except in very rare circumstances (such as a monk's Timeless Body ability). As such there is no way to gain the benifits without taking the penalties. Also I've been told that undead cannot age, also non stardard races cannot recieve aging related penalties or bonuses. I cannot guarantee if that's true. It's what I've been told. The psi-crystal is going to be either a material creature or an ethereal creature. You can take the feat. But the psicrystal will be on one plane or the other and it cannot move with you when you manifest.
Zelck 10-10-06, 04:28 PM	The psi-crystal is going to be either a material creature or an ethereal creature. You can take the feat. But the psicrystal will be on one plane or the other and it cannot move with you when you manifest. I can "move" the Psicrystal by having it sit in the ghost's pocket, right? Since they're both ethereal, even when the ghost is manifested? From what I can tell, it's just that I can't manifest the Psicrystal, which seems OK as long as it doesn't get removed due to the out of arena penalty. Please say it won't ;).
SauroGrenom 10-10-06, 04:33 PM	Right, I do too, but if I can get free bonuses... ;). Would the psicrystal be ethereal? Would it manifest with me? Would it have a fly speed without being whatever level it usually has to be? EDIT: In addition to those above questions, I'd like to ask what happens if an item leaves a manifesting ghost's possessions, i.e. a ranged weapon being thrown. Does it instantly revert back to the ethereal?The Psicrystal is not a posession. It is a creature. It does not have the ability to manifest as a ghost, and thus it is in either one plane or another. Equipment for ghosts is sticky. A ghost is different from a wraith because of it's dual nature. A wraith who wields a ghost touch bow fires arrows that are material as soon as they leave the wraith's posession. Thus they do not fly through armor or shields or walls and doors. However a wraith with a ghost-touch scythe does slice freely through armor, shields, natural armor, walls and doors. What happens when a ghost wields the bow and manifests as an incorpreal material creature, is unclear. The ghost, and for CoCo purposes his posessions, co-exist on two planes at once. Clearly if he slashes with a blade, the blade could cut both material and ethereal objects at once. What is unclear is what happens to objects that leave the ghost's posession while manifest. Are they lost into the ethereal plane or into the material plane. Imagine being the material bystander to a duel between two manifest ghosts. The first ghost disarms the second who drops his ghostly blade. Does it lie on the floor as a ghostly blade? Does it become totally ethereal and vanish from the material plane? For CoCo purposes we need to decide if the Manifestation ability has some durration that lasts after the item leaves the ghost's hand. We have already decided that ghostly spells can be cast into the material plane, and so I think it's reasonable to say that ghostly arrows can be fired into the material plane. I suggest that ghostly arrows simply become material when fired. reading (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041012a) More Reading (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041005a) More reading still (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040928a)
SauroGrenom 10-10-06, 04:34 PM	I can "move" the Psicrystal by having it sit in the ghost's pocket, right? Since they're both ethereal, even when the ghost is manifested? From what I can tell, it's just that I can't manifest the Psicrystal, which seems OK as long as it doesn't get removed due to the out of arena penalty. Please say it won't ;). The crystal is still in your posession on the ethereal plane, and it's not subject to the 10 round rule.
MindWandererB 10-10-06, 04:41 PM	What happens when a ghost wields the bow and manifests as an incorpreal material creature, is unclear. The ghost, and for CoCo purposes his posessions, co-exist on two planes at once. Clearly if he slashes with a blade, the blade could cut both material and ethereal objects at once. What is unclear is what happens to objects that leave the ghost's posession while manifest. Are they lost into the ethereal plane or into the material plane. Imagine being the material bystander to a duel between two manifest ghosts. The first ghost disarms the second who drops his ghostly blade. Does it lie on the floor as a ghostly blade? Does it become totally ethereal and vanish from the material plane? For CoCo purposes we need to decide if the Manifestation ability has some durration that lasts after the item leaves the ghost's hand. We have already decided that ghostly spells can be cast into the material plane, and so I think it's reasonable to say that ghostly arrows can be fired into the material plane. I suggest that ghostly arrows simply become material when fired.We actually had this discussion not too long ago, and we decided that 1) there was no basis for that solution except that Libris Mortis says so, and 2) that it was far too powerful. My counter-suggestion is that the arrows revert fully back to their ethereal form (rather than their ghostly dual-existence).
hogarth 10-10-06, 04:45 PM	We have already decided that ghostly spells can be cast into the material plane, and so I think it's reasonable to say that ghostly arrows can be fired into the material plane. I suggest that ghostly arrows simply become material when fired. If you read the section entitled "Ghostly Equipment" in the SRD Ghost entry, it's clear that ghostly arrows "of +1 or better magical enhancement" would simply be ethereal items that "can harm material creatures when the ghost manifests". Thus they would still be ethereal after firing. Ghostly equipment never travels to the material plane; it can just affect material creatures 50% of the time. Ghostly arrows that didn't have a +1 or better magical enhancement, however, would be unable to affect a material creature.
Zelck 10-10-06, 04:49 PM	We actually had this discussion not too long ago, and we decided that 1) there was no basis for that solution except that Libris Mortis says so, and 2) that it was far too powerful. My counter-suggestion is that the arrows revert fully back to their ethereal form (rather than their ghostly dual-existence). Well, near the bottom of this Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041012a) article, it mentions that: Returning to the Ethereal Plane: Because a manifested ghost can't exert any Strength on the Material Plane, it cannot grab things while manifested and drag them back to the Ethereal. It could, however, seize a ghost touch item and bring that back to the Ethereal Plane (where it could then handle the item normally). It's best to assume that a ghost can't use this trick with a ghost touch item in another creature's possession. Which implies that it can move items between the Material and the Ethereal plane when manifested. Thus, ghosts should be able to manifest and have their Ghost Touch bow be on the ethereal plane, where it would simply shoot arrows that turn corporeal instantly when fired. Also, from the Rules of the Game articles "There, not There" parts 3 and 5: If an incorporeal creature fires ghost touch ammunition or throws a ghost touch weapon, the projectile or weapon becomes corporeal the moment it leaves the incorporeal creature's possession, though it retains the ghost touch property. With respect to the Material Plane, a manifested ghost functions just like an incorporeal creature as described in Parts Three and Four, except for two things: A manifested ghost can move through a creature or object of any size (thanks to its etherealness). A manifested ghost that has a magic weapon with it on the Ethereal Plane can use the weapon to strike creatures. A manifested ghost using a magic weapon that is not a ghost touchweapon is making an incorporeal touch attack. The ghost's Strength modifier doesn't apply to the attack roll (even for a melee attack) or to the damage roll. The ghost's Dexterity modifier applies to the attack roll. The attack ignores armor (except ghost touch armor). The attack has a 50% miss chance. A ghost using incorporeal weapons (which an ethereal weapon that was manifested by a ghost is) uses the same rules as an incorporeal creature using incorporeal weapons. An incorporeal creature's missile attacks turn into material weapons when fired, so it should as well with ghosts.
Gonbow 10-10-06, 04:51 PM	I asked this question/confirmation in the Tavern thread but it seems to have been lost, so I'll repeat here as I would like to have my character ready before tomorrow; Though it no longer seems to be explicitly laid out in the Rules of Gladius, a character with Craft (Foo) of sufficient level can still perform crafting on items (And as a by-product, magical crafting that all the requirements for are met) before entering Gladius as a brand new character and can do an infinite amount of such, negating time as a resource, but everything else still required to be paid as per the crafting rules, yes? Similarly, money making skills (Profession, non-item creating craft, Sleight of hand) cannot be used pre-gladius to gain money. Arena-combat related skills do not have any use outside of Gladius, so it doesn't matter if they can/cannot be used pre-gladius. What about Gather Information and Discount? Given it's use, I'm assuming Gather Information can only be used inside Gladius... but what about Discount, can it be used to get a discount on equipment before a character begins his life in Gladius?
SauroGrenom 10-10-06, 04:52 PM	When an incorporeal attacker wields a ghost touchweapon as an incorporeal weapon, the attack is resolved as an incorporeal touch attack. If the attack hits, the weapon deals the normal damage for a weapon of its kind, plus any bonus damage from its enhancement bonus, but no Strength modifier applies. If an incorporeal creature fires ghost touch ammunition or throws a ghost touch weapon, the projectile or weapon becomes corporeal the moment it leaves the incorporeal creature's possession, though it retains the ghost touch property.Do items that leave a ghost's posession become corpreal and ethereal or corpreal and material? I suppose it would depend on where the item if "from." Returning to the Ethereal Plane: Because a manifested ghost can't exert any Strength on the Material Plane, it cannot grab things while manifested and drag them back to the Ethereal. It could, however, seize a ghost touch item and bring that back to the Ethereal Plane (where it could then handle the item normally). It's best to assume that a ghost can't use this trick with a ghost touch item in another creature's possession.So apparently ghost touch items can go to the ethereal plane if the ghost takes it, or it can go back to the material plane if the ghost drops it. I don't find that allowing ghost touch arrows to become material is unbalanced or overpowering. The arrows are fully material, and thus must contend with shield, armor, natural armor and material objects that block LOE. We already allow ghosts to cast spells into the material plane. Why not allow them to fire material arrows into the material plane?
SauroGrenom 10-10-06, 04:59 PM	Ugh. I wasn't aware of any changes to the rules about crafting armor and weapons. If those rules are unchainged, you should still be able to craft and train your mount pre-gladius. Free Activites do not exist pre-gladius. You must perform all free activiteis as part of running your character in Arena fights.
hogarth 10-10-06, 05:01 PM	So apparently ghost touch items can go to the ethereal plane if the ghost takes it, or it can go back to the material plane if the ghost drops it. The Ghost Touch property is a bit different. I thought Zelck was just talking about a "regular" ethereal bow (without the Ghost Touch property).
Gonbow 10-10-06, 05:53 PM	When using the Assassinate attack package, is the target considered flat-footed? It seems like while the skill set is geared towards rogues, psychic-warriors would get the most out of it. (Acid weapon on your horse, hiiiya! vs Oh... 1d8 damage on your horse... woo...)
Pittbull 10-11-06, 03:55 AM	Assasinate: Yes, I would consider the ally flat-footed.
hogarth 10-11-06, 08:47 AM	Assasinate: Yes, I would consider the ally flat-footed. What about for "Set Trap"? Is the clumsy clod who trips the trap flat-footed?
Zevox 10-11-06, 11:00 AM	Well, I got nothing when I asked this question over in the tavern, and it seems like it'll be simple enough, so if I may pose a question: Our newly-added rules about Renaissance Weapons mention that rapid reload can be used "normally" on them. However, they take a standard action to reload, whereas the weapons Rapid Reload is normally used on take either a move (light crossbow) or full round (heavy crossbow), and are reduced to different actions based on that. So what does it reduce the reload time to - free action (as the normally move one) or move action (as the normally full round one)? Zevox
hogarth 10-11-06, 11:29 AM	Our newly-added rules about Renaissance Weapons mention that rapid reload can be used "normally" on them. [snip] So what does it reduce the reload time to - free action (as the normally move one) or move action (as the normally full round one)? I would say a move action; a character firing a muzzle-loader multiple times in 6 seconds seems a little iffy to me. (Of course, I am neither an Elder nor an antique firearm expert.)
Pittbull 10-11-06, 11:53 AM	Yes, at least a move-action! But the feat is only for x-bows. Let's see what other people think... Choose a type of crossbow (hand, light, or heavy). Prerequisite Weapon Proficiency (crossbow type chosen). Benefit The time required for you to reload your chosen type of crossbow is reduced to a free action (for a hand or light crossbow) or a move action (for a heavy crossbow). Reloading a crossbow still provokes an attack of opportunity. If you have selected this feat for hand crossbow or light crossbow, you may fire that weapon as many times in a full attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow. Normal A character without this feat needs a move action to reload a hand or light crossbow, or a full-round action to reload a heavy crossbow. Special You can gain Rapid Reload multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of crossbow. A fighter may select Rapid Reload as one of his fighter bonus feats.
MindWandererB 10-11-06, 03:20 PM	Well... a compromise maybe? Light Crossbow: Move Action => Free Action Gun: Standard Action => ??? Action Heavy Crossbow: Full-Round Action => Move Action When I look at the table that way, one thing immediately comes to mind: Swift Action.
Zevox 10-11-06, 03:35 PM	Well... a compromise maybe? Light Crossbow: Move Action => Free Action Gun: Standard Action => ??? Action Heavy Crossbow: Full-Round Action => Move Action When I look at the table that way, one thing immediately comes to mind: Swift Action. Huh - so that would essentially amount to a free action you can only do once per round. Interesting. Might well be a good way to do it - it could allow two shots per round, but not more, and it would prohibit other swift actions that round (like say, activating a heartening shield). Zevox
TheMagister 10-11-06, 04:58 PM	Other things it would prohibit: Dual-wielding wheel-lock pistols and using TWF + Rapid Shot + Rapid Reload to get off 4 x 1d10 ranged attacks in a round. ... It would knock it down to three shots, I guess. Oh, and the sample situation's character would have to drop a pistol to reload (still need two hands to do that). TM
Zevox 10-11-06, 08:57 PM	Other things it would prohibit: Dual-wielding wheel-lock pistols and using TWF + Rapid Shot + Rapid Reload to get off 4 x 1d10 ranged attacks in a round. ... It would knock it down to three shots, I guess. Oh, and the sample situation's character would have to drop a pistol to reload (still need two hands to do that). TM Those things have a range of 50'. I doubt you'll see anyone trying to pull that off anyway - any map with a decent amount of space will give at least -2 to your shot if your opponent isn't coming to melee, and I'd hate to see them face a real archer on the plains. And you could really only do three shots once, unless you want to spend two rounds reloading. Zevox
Gonbow 10-12-06, 03:09 AM	Those things have a range of 50'. I doubt you'll see anyone trying to pull that off anyway - any map with a decent amount of space will give at least -2 to your shot if your opponent isn't coming to melee, and I'd hate to see them face a real archer on the plains. And you could really only do three shots once, unless you want to spend two rounds reloading. Zevox I would attempt to pull it off for sheer coolness points. Then the character would cast a scorching ray from a scroll and actually win that way. But still, the gunslinging wizard is rather a cool thing to contemplate briefly.
Erithmu 10-12-06, 11:55 AM	ASF with an arcane scroll ... scroll is ruined or remains intact. My gut tells me that the the scroll in comparison with ASF from memory. I could be wrong, but I was looking up scrolls but they don't mention anything about ASF. I was looking at ASF and it doesn't mention anything about scrolls. I looked in the prison and didn't see anything. What do we have as the 'current' ruling?
hogarth 10-12-06, 11:57 AM	ASF with an arcane scroll ... scroll is ruined or remains intact. My gut tells me that the the scroll in comparison with ASF from memory. I could be wrong, but I was looking up scrolls but they don't mention anything about ASF. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance.
Macbrea 10-12-06, 03:24 PM	In the Rules of the Game Article 'There and not there, part 3' When refering to incorporal creatures and ability to move into objects, it states: "An incorporeal creature cannot pass entirely through an object that is thicker than its own space. For example, a spectre's size is Medium, so it can't pass through an object more than 5 feet thick. Without this rule, an incorporeal creature could use large solid objects to traverse great distances or even travel straight though the planet. The rules are silent on exactly how small an opening an incorporeal creature can pass through when an object is too thick to allow the creature to just move through it. I recommend that you allow an incorporeal creature to pass through any opening big enough to admit its head (if it has one). As a rule of thumb, this is about one eighth as wide as the creature is long or tall." Which leads me to believe that ghosts/shades have the ability to enter stone wall but cannot move along inside the stone. Because it is thicker then 5ft in size. I am trying to get a verification that this is correct interpetation of what was written in the rules of the game article. If it is a correct interpetation I need to have new tactics sent to me.
SauroGrenom 10-12-06, 03:46 PM	First, ghosts can move through solid objects entirely. Since they are ethereal, they get that ability. It's in one of those articles, I don't remember where. Also there is a difference between moving through and moving into or moving along an object's edge. We have always allowed ghosts to move along underground. I think we should allow specter's to do it as well.
Stormwind 10-12-06, 03:55 PM	In the rules of the game article There, Not there (Part Three) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040928a) it states the following (just before the section you quoted): An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but it must remain adjacent to the object's exterior.
Gonbow 10-13-06, 06:18 PM	There has to be a discussion on stealth every month or so, I guess it's that time. It was mentioned in the Fight of the Week thread that the 'twang' of a bowstring has been ruled somewhere apparently, as a flat DC 0 listen check to hear and thus be 'aware' of/pinpoint the source. My first comment on this is... this ruling seems extraneous. Hide and Move silently do a very good job at managing awareness without requiring someone to roll dice for every single action they take, but merely applies modifiers to one (or two, if both are on the block) overall roll that represents -everything- you do in a round. There are exceptions that set a DC (command words/spellcasting/talking), but all of them that I know of are actions whose purpose is to create sound and thus, cannot generally be done 'quieter' than normal and still be effective, whereas everything else in general, can. I could see attacking imposing a penalty to move silently, as it already does to hide, but not allowing an additional check/setting the DC to something so extremely low! So then, is this a generally used rule? A random tidbit from some fight best left forgotten/overturned in the judgements of time? Or, if a specific question need be asked... 'If someone is attacked with a bow from an unseen source, does hearing the attack depend on hearing the source of the attack (I.E: The attackers move silently check and relevant mods)? If not, what does it depend on?' Relevance: Monks & Deflect arrows vs invisible attackers. Assassins & Studying while using bows.
MindWandererB 10-13-06, 06:21 PM	Cross-posted: My proposal: The attacker is trying to make an attack, quietly. Unlike Hide, you apparently suffer no penalty for attacking while moving silently (this is new to me). So it should be a simple MS check at no penalty to remain unheard while you set up the shot. If you actually get to the point of launching the attack (releasing the bowstring, etc.) then you have successfully remained silent, your opponent is unaware, and Deflect Arrows won't work (and you can sneak attack if in range). If they hear the bowstring, but nothing beforehand, it's just too late for them to react.
TheMagister 10-14-06, 07:22 AM	Relevance: Monks & Deflect arrows vs invisible (or hidden) attackers. Assassins & Studying while using bows. Small addition.
Pittbull 10-14-06, 01:06 PM	The rule of the bowstring-"twang" derives from Jindl from his first fight vs my pixie character Laph. The former elders and Cat supported it. My problem with MW's suggestion of using MS instead of DC0 plus distance, is that you can't release a bowstring more silently. A bow isn't the best weapon for assasination, a dagger in the throat suits much better (Just ask Vlad Taltos;) ). Plus, I believe it's never too late for deflect arrows, this is a kind of super-hero ability, I only use here in the CoCo (for optimization) and not at home.
Zelck 10-14-06, 01:37 PM	What about deflecting arrows while blind, or in the dark? Say you know where your opponent is because you have an Arcane Sight active, but his bow and arrows aren't magical so you can't see an arrow coming. Can you deflect an arrow like this?
Hirumajoe 10-14-06, 01:41 PM	Would it be possible to buy bow silencers? Essentially soft puffs of string or other material attached at various points on the bow string designed to dampen the vibrations generating the audible twang? Or should stealth characters simply invest in custom items of silence 3/day? Would firing from within the area of a silence spell (or while the target is within the area of silence spell) along with having an invisible arrow (or possibly within an area providing concealment) be enough to defeat deflect arrows? Since obviously they included "aware of the attack" there must be conditions under which the target is unaware. Or perhaps the better question is: What are the requirements to being aware of an attack, and what would be considered sufficient to defeat that awareness? Just to formally ask it. :-) Thanks.
TheMagister 10-14-06, 01:49 PM	{friendly sarcasm} "I think, therefore I Deflect Arrows..." :rolleyes:
Zelck 10-15-06, 01:15 AM	In addition to the Deflect Arrows question, I'd also like to know... Spot's distance penalty seems to only apply to when an encounter starts (or so the descriptive text seems to imply). Are we going to use it like this, or did we intentionally apply it to inside combat as well?
MindWandererB 10-15-06, 02:58 AM	In addition to the Deflect Arrows question, I'd also like to know... Spot's distance penalty seems to only apply to when an encounter starts (or so the descriptive text seems to imply). Are we going to use it like this, or did we intentionally apply it to inside combat as well? I'm not sure this is true. The table happens to be right under the reference to encounter distances, but there's no reason to believe that it doesn't refer to the entire thing. Listen works that way, after all.
Zelck 10-15-06, 03:11 AM	Hmm... another interesting question. Just what can Malevolence be used on? We know it can't be used on outsiders and elementals because their body and soul are linked, but what about undead "souls" like other ghosts, shadows, and unbodied?
Stormwind 10-15-06, 04:13 AM	Malevolence (Su): Once per round, an ethereal ghost can merge its body with a creature on the Material Plane. This ability is similar to a magic jar spell (caster level 10th or the ghost’s Hit Dice, whichever is higher), except that it does not require a receptacle. To use this ability, the ghost must be manifested and it must try move into the target’s space; moving into the target’s space to use the malevolence ability does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The target can resist the attack with a successful Will save (DC 15 + ghost’s Cha modifier). A creature that successfully saves is immune to that same ghost’s malevolence for 24 hours, and the ghost cannot enter the target’s space. If the save fails, the ghost vanishes into the target’s body. Since incorporeal creatures don't actually have a body as such (and hence connot wear items etc), it seems an obvious correlation that Malevolence cannot be used on undead "souls" purely incorporeal creatures.
lonewolf 10-15-06, 07:16 AM	Since incorporeal creatures don't actually have a body as such (and hence connot wear items etc), it seems an obvious correlation that Malevolence cannot be used on undead "souls" That actually proves that shadows cannot be possessed. But ghosts do have a body on the ethereal plane. So I see no reason yet why one ghost couldnt use malevolence on another. :D
MindWandererB 10-15-06, 02:46 PM	That actually proves that shadows cannot be possessed. But ghosts do have a body on the ethereal plane. So I see no reason yet why one ghost couldnt use malevolence on another. :D How about this? Once per round, an ethereal ghost can merge its body with a creature on the Material Plane. Since the body can never be on the material plane, this is impossible.
NiQil 10-16-06, 01:33 AM	Re: Deflect Arrows and awareness I have been kicking around an idea that I wanted to get some thoughts on regarding a definition of "awareness of the attack" as called for by the Deflect Arrows feat. Several of you have expressed the desire for a more concrete definition that can be applied to situations that arise, so that things like the Listen checks vs a bowstring twang don't come up. What I am looking at is that since Deflect Arrows already requires that you not be flat-footed, I was considering defining being aware of an attack as anytime you are not denied your Dex to AC. This would cover situations like being attacked by a third party while in a grapple or being sniped at, and has a clear, already-defined mechanic in place, since both of those areas deny their target their Dex to AC, and both are situations where being aware of an attack might come in to question. I would like some feedback on this idea, especially in the area of situations where the use of Deflect Arrows might be questionable that would *not be covered by defining lack of awareness as being denied your Dex to AC.
Zelck 10-16-06, 02:12 AM	I think my Arcane Sight example might apply. You know where your opponent is, so you shouldn't be flatfooted, but you still shouldn't be able to detect the arrow or even when an attack takes place.
Etiquette_Gnome 10-16-06, 02:13 AM	Here's a question, when is ability damage/burn recovered? I mainly ask this due to the possible tactic of Body Fuel for use in Arena battles.
Vathelokai 10-16-06, 03:51 AM	I've run into a though problem with a shadowdancer...Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.Shadow isn't really defined. In broad daylight there is plenty of shadows. So far I have assuming that darkness (a defined term) is nessicary for use of this skill, but the more I think of it, the less sure I am. How should I deal with this in the fight that I am currently working on (which is in week 2, in the cavern). -only darkness that grants concealment counts as shadow on our maps. (maps are magicly lit from all angles or something) -create a lighting source for our maps and extrapolate where the shadows would be. -assume that nearly any space has some level of shadow in it. A hurried response would be appreciated.
Vathelokai 10-16-06, 03:54 AM	Re: Deflect Arrows and awareness I have been kicking around an idea that I wanted to get some thoughts on regarding a definition of "awareness of the attack" as called for by the Deflect Arrows feat. The last elder ruling on the subject declaired that since you can be aware of things before init, and thus be aware of things flat footed, awareness and lack of dex bonus were not interchangeable. I'm really split on this one. Really just blabing for the hell of it.
MindWandererB 10-16-06, 04:00 AM	Re: Deflect Arrows and awareness I have been kicking around an idea that I wanted to get some thoughts on regarding a definition of "awareness of the attack" as called for by the Deflect Arrows feat. Several of you have expressed the desire for a more concrete definition that can be applied to situations that arise, so that things like the Listen checks vs a bowstring twang don't come up. What I am looking at is that since Deflect Arrows already requires that you not be flat-footed, I was considering defining being aware of an attack as anytime you are not denied your Dex to AC. This would cover situations like being attacked by a third party while in a grapple or being sniped at, and has a clear, already-defined mechanic in place, since both of those areas deny their target their Dex to AC, and both are situations where being aware of an attack might come in to question. I would like some feedback on this idea, especially in the area of situations where the use of Deflect Arrows might be questionable that would *not be covered by defining lack of awareness as being denied your Dex to AC.I think if they meant "denied Dex bonus," they would have said so. I think they provided perfectly reasonable guidelines in the Assassin bit in the FAQ. Hearing, seeing, or other types of general detection (like Arcane Sight) should be fine. How should I deal with this in the fight that I am currently working on (which is in week 2, in the cavern). -only darkness that grants concealment counts as shadow on our maps. (maps are magicly lit from all angles or something) -create a lighting source for our maps and extrapolate where the shadows would be. -assume that nearly any space has some level of shadow in it.I think that until we add lighting conditions, everything is treated as well-lit. Shadows provide at least some concealment (thus, the ability to hide in shadows, a it was called in 1e/2e), so only areas that create concealment are considered shadowed. Yes, I know this goes against me in the fight at hand, but I see no other way to adjudicate it--except, possibly, that any "obstacle" (pillar, boulder, statue) is assumed to cast a shadow of some sort in its square (the logic being that no matter where the light is, such an obstacle would cast a shadow somewhere). The latter may be more reasonable, the former more strict.
Gonbow 10-16-06, 04:32 AM	I'm not an elder, so I really shouldn't be answering things... but IMHO, a 'shadow' falls under the 'minor enviromental effects' ruling for the arena in general. If it is benefical for there to be a light wind, there is a light wind. If it is benefical for there to be a small shadow, there is a shadow. That's just my two cents. (Because a shadow isn't the same as shadowy illumination, imho)
Vathelokai 10-16-06, 04:40 AM	I'm not an elder, so I really shouldn't be answering things... but IMHO, a 'shadow' falls under the 'minor enviromental effects' ruling for the arena in general. If it is benefical for there to be a light wind, there is a light wind. If it is benefical for there to be a small shadow, there is a shadow. That's just my two cents. (Because a shadow isn't the same as shadowy illumination, imho) True, but the problem is that a shadowdancer gets sneak attack from the hide in plain sight. Giving general shadows to the team with the shadowdancer is the same as giving them sneak attack every round, which turns out quite unbalanced. I can see both sides of it, but for now I'll go with MindWandererB. If the elders could debate a definition though, that would be great.
lonewolf 10-16-06, 05:17 AM	True, but the problem is that a shadowdancer gets sneak attack from the hide in plain sight. Giving general shadows to the team with the shadowdancer is the same as giving them sneak attack every round, which turns out quite unbalanced. I can see both sides of it, but for now I'll go with MindWandererB. If the elders could debate a definition though, that would be great. Come on Vath. Shadowdancer is a prestige class with high prerequesites and exactly one good ability. Hide in Plain Sight is supposed to be good. EDIT: My take on shadows is that there is a shadow near every wall and every obstacle unless there is Daylight or something similar around. And if there is any map where there should be no discussion if there is shadow or not its the cavern map, isnt it?
hogarth 10-16-06, 06:50 AM	Here's a question, when is ability damage/burn recovered? I mainly ask this due to the possible tactic of Body Fuel for use in Arena battles. This came up before, but I'm not sure what the result was. Maybe ability burn shouldn't be recovered even though ability damage would be.
Zelck 10-16-06, 10:27 AM	I think if they meant "denied Dex bonus," they would have said so. I think they provided perfectly reasonable guidelines in the Assassin bit in the FAQ. Hearing, seeing, or other types of general detection (like Arcane Sight) should be fine. That ruling doesn't sit well with me. Let's suppose the only thing that shows up in an Arcane Sight is the shooter's Belt of Strength, and the place is pitch black. How is the defender even supposed to know the archer shot? How can he possibly know when to start deflecting? @Body Fuel: I don't think it's good enough to make a special ruling for it. I mean, 2 PP per 1 point of ability burn from each of your physical scores? With 10 strength, assuming you want to keep at least 3 in every attribute, you could get 14 PP per fight out if it, at the cost of 3 or 4 dodge bonus to AC and 3 or 4 HP per level. Woohoo. Not that great, IMO.
TheMagister 10-16-06, 10:52 AM	And I happen to like Niqil's idea. If your character is denied his Dex to AC, then he can't move his body fast enough to get out of the way of an oncoming attack. That works for the +4 cover bonus provided by the Ride skill (we've agreed that if you can't see the incoming attack, you can't take advantage of your mount for cover). Why wouldn't it apply here where it makes the same amount of sense? TM
Zevox 10-16-06, 11:05 AM	And I happen to like Niqil's idea. If your character is denied his Dex to AC, then he can't move his body fast enough to get out of the way of an oncoming attack. That works for the +4 cover bonus provided by the Ride skill (we've agreed that if you can't see the incoming attack, you can't take advantage of your mount for cover). Why wouldn't it apply here where it makes the same amount of sense? TM I've got to agree with this. Its the way I've always figured it worked, and ts the way I work it in my own games. If you can't even react to the attack to get your dex to AC, you obviously aren't aware of it, so theres no reason you should be able to deflect an arrow, drop behind a mount, etc. Zevox
hogarth 10-16-06, 11:12 AM	@Body Fuel: I don't think it's good enough to make a special ruling for it. I mean, 2 PP per 1 point of ability burn from each of your physical scores? With 10 strength, assuming you want to keep at least 3 in every attribute, you could get 14 PP per fight out if it, at the cost of 3 or 4 dodge bonus to AC and 3 or 4 HP per level. Woohoo. Not that great, IMO. At higher levels, it tapers off in usefulness. But at level 3, an extra 4 Energy Missiles per match hurts!
Zelck 10-16-06, 12:12 PM	At higher levels, it tapers off in usefulness. But at level 3, an extra 4 Energy Missiles per match hurts! Well, Psions aren't that strong at low levels anyway, and they have endurance issues against multiple enemies.
waywreth 10-16-06, 01:15 PM	Well, Psions aren't that strong at low levels anyway, and they have endurance issues against multiple enemies. True but energy missle is one of the few powers that scales up on the d6/+1 DC power scale, making it extremely effective and powerful. That's to say nothing of the fact it can hit multiple targets. Being able to cast it a few more times at lower levels, is key. I was tempted to take body fuel for Gaston but his strength was too low to make it worthwhile. Also note you get attribute points back only after the 3FC is over, so it's less effective than it was on a single fights basis.
hogarth 10-16-06, 01:26 PM	Also note you get attribute points back only after the 3FC is over, so it's less effective than it was on a single fights basis. Where does it say that? All I found is the following quote: Your hitpoints will always be restored to full health at no cost. Negative effects on your character (blindness, ability damage, etc) will also be removed for free. Or are you saying that ability burn is different than other "negative effects"?
MindWandererB 10-16-06, 03:34 PM	I can see both sides of it, but for now I'll go with MindWandererB. If the elders could debate a definition though, that would be great.Except that I provided two options.... I'll defer to public opinion on the Deflect Arrows thing. It's the easiest thing to adjudicate, in any event.
waywreth 10-16-06, 03:58 PM	Where does it say that? All I found is the following quote: Or are you saying that ability burn is different than other "negative effects"? Good point. My thought process was that since it was a deliberate action on the part of the character, not something induced by an opponent, it would follow the normal healing rules. That could very well be incorrect.
NiQil 10-16-06, 09:02 PM	I've got to agree with this. Its the way I've always figured it worked, and ts the way I work it in my own games. If you can't even react to the attack to get your dex to AC, you obviously aren't aware of it, so theres no reason you should be able to deflect an arrow, drop behind a mount, etc. Zevox That was sorta the reasoning behind the suggestion. I'd really love to have the other Elder's and Cat chime in on this one...since this is a definite houserule this is gonna need more than my say-so to be put into effect.
Macbrea 10-16-06, 11:44 PM	You have a listen DC to NOTICE a sound from a direction as per the rules of the game article of 'There and not there'. You are unable to pinpoint an attack unless you make that Listen DC by 20. If a snipe comes from a direction and you make the roll by more then 1 but less then 20. You are aware that a sound (probably an attack) is coming from a direction. At this point the spotting rules for DnD come into effect to see the arrow. Because, it is traveling in the open you automaticly spot it. If you were in the dark, you do not because of concealment. You also get a chance to spot the shooter. Who made the attack with -20 to his hide check. Now, this is my normal interpetation of the rules as written. The elders can rule anyway they wish and I will go with the general house rule. What this means is if you cannot spot it or don't make the listen check in the first place you are considered without dex for being unaware of the attack.
McJarvis 10-17-06, 12:20 AM	Cross-posted in tavarn. Can someone give me a list of weapons with listen check DC's? I can't find any reference in the rules that give listen check DC's to longbows, and I'd rather know for future reference what we're adding in.... Specifically for: Longbow Shortbow Crossbow(heavy/light/hand) Sling Thrown weapons I want to know the listen DC's associated with these weapons, or just have it ruled that MS affects how ranged weapons are used as well. It is VERY important that I understand how CoCo rules treat all these for my tactics-writing of Mort...and so that if a Pitlord does something "x" way I can either think to myself "yes, this is how it is supposed to be done in CoCo" or very verbally say "No Pitlord, you messed up :P" Overall this is already very inconvenient for me since Mort is mid-cycle and I had no way of knowing the listen-DC rules in place for composite longbows. (I would definately have packed throwing daggers or darts or spears if I had known this- and it was not clearly posted anywhere) edit- Furthermore, if it is ruled that the listen DC's are not set by MS,(Which I believe is actual Core Rules) I think this needs to be posted in either the Listen skill descriptor of CoCo or Court Decisions thread. It is currently in neither.
Zelck 10-17-06, 04:18 PM	EDIT: nm
c00lz3 10-17-06, 07:35 PM	In the rules of Gladius there is nothing that says what exactly happens during a sniping attack or just attaking while hiding. I am not sure my self but i though it was that foes lose dex to ac for that attack. Also could you use powers/spells as snipe attacks or form hiding to get a similar effect?
SauroGrenom 10-18-06, 09:34 AM	In the rules of Gladius there is nothing that says what exactly happens during a sniping attack or just attaking while hiding. I am not sure my self but i though it was that foes lose dex to ac for that attack. Also could you use powers/spells as snipe attacks or form hiding to get a similar effect? A snipe allows you to attack and the opponent has no idea where the attack came from. Attacking while hiding reveals your position. Since Sniping is move action after a ranged attack, you cannot combine it with some spells that are also full round actions. Also it can only be combined with spells that are ranged attacks, that means rays. Finally, your casting is probably going to be heard. That will reveal your position.
NiQil 10-18-06, 05:18 PM	Moved over from the Tavern... @ Cat & Elders: Do the -1 to attacks and the loss of AC that a buckler lists in it's item description apply when the buckler hand is used for natural attacks or unarmed strikes? I (and others) contend they do not, as the item description talks about wielding weapons in your hand, and says nothing about using the hand itself as a weapon. MWB (and others) contend that the description is referring to all weapons, whether they are manufactured or natural. A quick response on this would be appreciated, as this will directly affect a character debuting next week. Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round. You can’t bash someone with a buckler.
McJarvis 10-18-06, 06:21 PM	Cross-posted in tavarn. Can someone give me a list of weapons with listen check DC's? I can't find any reference in the rules that give listen check DC's to longbows, and I'd rather know for future reference what we're adding in.... Specifically for: Longbow Shortbow Crossbow(heavy/light/hand) Sling Thrown weapons I want to know the listen DC's associated with these weapons, or just have it ruled that MS affects how ranged weapons are used as well. It is VERY important that I understand how CoCo rules treat all these for my tactics-writing of Mort...and so that if a Pitlord does something "x" way I can either think to myself "yes, this is how it is supposed to be done in CoCo" or very verbally say "No Pitlord, you messed up :P" Overall this is already very inconvenient for me since Mort is mid-cycle and I had no way of knowing the listen-DC rules in place for composite longbows. (I would definately have packed throwing daggers or darts or spears if I had known this- and it was not clearly posted anywhere) edit- Furthermore, if it is ruled that the listen DC's are not set by MS,(Which I believe is actual Core Rules) I think this needs to be posted in either the Listen skill descriptor of CoCo or Court Decisions thread. It is currently in neither. I need this answered for my tactics this week.
Zelck 10-18-06, 07:00 PM	Along with the above two questions, did we (and if not, can we) decide/vote on whether a Monk's Belt provides wis mod to AC?
NiQil 10-18-06, 07:07 PM	Along with the above two questions, did we (and if not, can we) decide/vote on whether a Monk's Belt provides wis mod to AC? Yes, it does.
SauroGrenom 10-18-06, 08:58 PM	Moved over from the Tavern... @ Cat & Elders: Do the -1 to attacks and the loss of AC that a buckler lists in it's item description apply when the buckler hand is used for natural attacks or unarmed strikes? I (and others) contend they do not, as the item description talks about wielding weapons in your hand, and says nothing about using the hand itself as a weapon. MWB (and others) contend that the description is referring to all weapons, whether they are manufactured or natural. A quick response on this would be appreciated, as this will directly affect a character debuting next week.I fail to see a difference between wielding a weapon and using something as a weapon. Is a spiked gauntlet a weapon you wield? I would say that it clearly is a weapon that is wielded. It is very simular to a natural claw or slam attack. So yes the penalty applies to any attack rolls using that arm with the buckler (except bows as the item description states).
NiQil 10-18-06, 09:11 PM	Except a spiked gauntlet is also something not wielded in your hand, and I would therefore contend that the penalties would also not apply to it. That is the crux of the debate. If you are not wielding the weapon in your hand, do the penalties apply? The buckler description goes out of its way to refer to mention weapons wielded in your hand. It makes no mention of the hand itself. If a natural attack, such as a claw, is ruled to be the same as holding a weapon in your hand, then wouldn't that prevent a claw from holding a weapon at all in that claw, since it is already ruled as you holding a weapon? Can you hold a weapon in a claw in which that claw is already classified as holding a weapon? Which would be against what most claw attacks allow (they allow the use of weapons normally in most cases). That's why I feel that it the penalties are specific to held weapons only. There is even precedent for this, in the form of the power Dissolving Weapon, which also specifies one held weapon as the target for the power. A seperate power, Dissolving Touch, is used to apply the same effect to natural weapons.
MindWandererB 10-18-06, 09:19 PM	That's why I feel that it the penalties are specific to held weapons only. There is even precedent for this, in the form of the power Dissolving Weapon, which also specifies one held weapon as the target for the power. A seperate power, Dissolving Touch, is used to apply the same effect to natural weapons.Except that a natural weapon isn't a legal target for any spell. Magic Fang, for instance, targets the creature, even though it effects only one natural weapon.
SauroGrenom 10-18-06, 09:22 PM	You are realy spitting hairs on this one. But I still disagree. The part of the description that talks about penalties says: "You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so." It says noting about the weapon being in the hand. It says you take the penalty if you use your shield arm to wield a weapon. The penalty to attack rolls makes no distinction about wielding a weapon in a hand or on a stump at the wrist or whatever. All the penalty requires is using the attached arm to wield a weapon of any kind. If you realy want to continue splitting hairs, then you can claim that an unarmed strike or spiked gauntled or natural attack using that arm is allowed to still keep the shield bonus because that section of the item description hinges on wielding a weapon in the hand. But that's a streach for me and I disagree.
Abyssal Stalker 10-19-06, 05:57 AM	Sauro's resoning sounds more reasonable to me. I think the description should say: "If you attack with that hand where the buckler is strapped, then you loose the AC bonus for that round." Because that's what the buckler does. It shields you if your hand is in a position where the buckler is on the way of incoming attacks. Swinging a sword in that hand or slashing with a claw in that hand doesn't seem to make a difference.
Pittbull 10-19-06, 07:15 AM	I support Sauro.
Abyssal Stalker 10-19-06, 07:22 AM	I have some questions regarding vampires generally and in CoCo. There are some things mentioned in the vampire weaknesses, that need to be clarified in order to play such a character. Repelling a Vampire: Vampires cannot tolerate the strong odor of garlic and will not enter an area laced with it. Similarly, they recoil from a mirror or a strongly presented holy symbol. These things don’t harm the vampire - they merely keep it at bay. A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from a creature holding the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against the creature holding the item for the rest of the encounter. Holding a vampire at bay takes a standard action. Vampires are also unable to cross running water, although they can be carried over it while resting in their coffins or aboard a ship. They are utterly unable to enter a home or other building unless invited in by someone with the authority to do so. They may freely enter public places, since these are by definition open to all. - How is garlic supposed to work? Can everyone just state that I am wearing a garlic necklace and that's it, I'm immune to vampires? By my reading, there needs to be an area with a significant amount of garlic in order to keep the vampire at bay. - How repelling works? The character can take a standard action to recoil the vampire and the vampire must stay at least 5ft away. But what happens when the character puts the mirror/holy symbol away? The description says that the vampire can't attack the character for the rest of the encounter. Surely this can't mean that the vampire is completely unable to do anything to the character when he has stopped the repelling? This would lead into a situation where character A repels the vampire (a standard action), puts the holy symbol away (move action) and starts to beat the s out of the vampire and the vampire can do nothing for the rest of the fight. - What is the ruling of the water? There are two maps with water, forest and sewer. IMO the water in the sewer isn't running and it's at least questionable in the forest if the water qualifies for "running water". The water should be quite shallow in a swamp-like area. At least the central part of the map can't have any running water because there is a thick swamp with something growing in it.
Macbrea 10-19-06, 11:34 AM	It should be noted nowhere in the system is there a price for garlic. This means a character would need to pay credits for a few pounds of garlic.
hogarth 10-19-06, 11:46 AM	- How is garlic supposed to work? Can everyone just state that I am wearing a garlic necklace and that's it, I'm immune to vampires? By my reading, there needs to be an area with a significant amount of garlic in order to keep the vampire at bay. I don't think there'll be any way of arranging a fight to be held in "an area laced with [garlic]" so that method is out.
Hirumajoe 10-19-06, 12:00 PM	When you take the leadership feat and gain a cohort is it possible to get one whose alignment is different from that listed? In particular, a Pegasus has a listing of "Usually Chaotic Good". If it were a character then it could be any alignment the player wanted but I don't know what the rules regarding a cohort would be. Would it be possible (or necessary) to spend 10 credits to move such a mount's alignment from Chaotic Good to Lawful Good? The idea is to have this as a mount for a paladin, in addition qualifying the Pegasus to take monk levels for general survivability. In a related question, would a Pegasus(4 HD +2 LA)/ Monk 2 be able to use the deflect arrows feat? Do free hooves or wings count as "hands" for these purposes? From the SRD: "You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) to use this feat. Once per round when you would normally be hit with a ranged weapon, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it. You must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed. Attempting to deflect a ranged weapon doesn’t count as an action. Unusually massive ranged weapons and ranged attacks generated by spell effects can’t be deflected." Thanks.
SauroGrenom 10-19-06, 01:13 PM	*Sigh* Vamps... There's a whole game for just vamps you know. Published by Whitewolf. Alright all the weaknesses of Vamps are realy plot devices and classical weaknesses. The massive +8 LA is not their so these characters can be defeated by commoners with mirrors or garlic in combination with a silver magic crossbow. The weaknesses are their so that the vampires can have interesting plot functions. In a typical game the vamps just flee when the garlic comes out. In coco being repelled is a death sentence. You are not allowed to flee the arena and come back later while your foes sleep. The core weaknesses cripple the vamps and force them to loose. Vamps much like Liches have a far higher LA than their abilities would suggest. This is because the near immortality of the template. Thus they are not very effective characters in CoCo. But if you insist we can interpret the weaknesses to CoCo and see what we get. Garlic: This is apparently an area effect. The garlic (not purchasable in core at all) must be applied to an area not a creature. The vamp cannot enter that area. Mirror/Holy Symbol: These things will prevent a vamp from getting within 5'. They take a standard action to use them. The vamp is held at bay and recoiling so long as the item is presented. This means the vamp's actions are limited in some unspecified way. Also clearly the rules say the vamp is unable to attack the person using the mirror or holy symbol for the remainder of the encounter. Basicially an auto loss. Running water: Several of our maps have water. The city map, the sewer map and the forest map have running water, and vamps will be unable to move through or over any water square on these maps. Have fun with your vamp.
Abyssal Stalker 10-19-06, 01:48 PM	Well, you can't blame one from trying, can you? (And actually I'm creating a vampire spawn, which is far more better with only a +4LA and many of the vampires strengths.) Now you are just giving the easy answers to my question because you think the idea is bad. The repelling action isn't clear enough to be used just as written. Repelling a vampire is a standard action. That's clear. But it clearly says that holding the vampire at bay takes a standard action. This seems to me that the character presenting the symbol must use a standard action every turn. And it says that the character must hold the item - so it probably isn't enough to just leave it hanging from your neck or something like that. I get the idea that repelling a vampire is something you must keep doing in order to keep it effective. And what means "encounter"? Is it enough to break LoS? Getting repelled isn't an auto-loss. It leaves a lot of options open if you just use your imagination. Ranged attacks, effects that target the item that repels the vampire, etc. Are you really sure that the water in the sewer is "running water"? It is only 1ft deep dirty water. I'm fine if that's an elder decision that others agree with.
MindWandererB 10-19-06, 04:06 PM	In a related question, would a Pegasus(4 HD +2 LA)/ Monk 2 be able to use the deflect arrows feat? Do free hooves or wings count as "hands" for these purposes? From the SRD: "You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) to use this feat. Once per round when you would normally be hit with a ranged weapon, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it. You must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed. Attempting to deflect a ranged weapon doesn’t count as an action. Unusually massive ranged weapons and ranged attacks generated by spell effects can’t be deflected."We have a standing policy that having a natural weapon counts as the Improved Unarmed Strike feat for the purposes of prerequisites. I've put the feat on a dire bat with Cat's approval. Not sure if wings count, but hooves and, strangely enough, the pegasus's bite, will both work. (Although realistically, I'd like to see how that works.)
hogarth 10-19-06, 04:23 PM	We have a standing policy that having a natural weapon counts as the Improved Unarmed Strike feat for the purposes of prerequisites. I've put the feat on a dire bat with Cat's approval. Not sure if wings count, but hooves and, strangely enough, the pegasus's bite, will both work. (Although realistically, I'd like to see how that works.) You've never seen a donkey bite an arrow out of midair? They only cost 108 gp! Where did the weird "natural attack = Improved Unarmed Strike" rationale come from? I can't find any creature in the SRD that has Deflect Arrows, Stunning Fist or Snatch Arrows, so there's no precedent there. Is it just because the Bebelith has Improved Grapple but not I.U.S. that we have this rule? That's just about the weakest argument I've ever heard.
MindWandererB 10-19-06, 04:40 PM	You've never seen a donkey bite an arrow out of midair? They only cost 108 gp! Where did the weird "natural attack = Improved Unarmed Strike" rationale come from? I can't find any creature in the SRD that has Deflect Arrows, Stunning Fist or Snatch Arrows, so there's no precedent there. Is it just because the Bebelith has Improved Grapple but not I.U.S. that we have this rule? That's just about the weakest argument I've ever heard.That's the reason, all right. Proposal: that we "reduce" this rule to include only claw, talon, slam, slap, and tentacle attacks. Bites, gores, and stings make no sense whatsoever, but I can definitely see the "arm" attacks qualifying. Still makes the Bebilith work.
hogarth 10-19-06, 04:44 PM	That's the reason, all right. Proposal: that we "reduce" this rule to include only claw, talon, slam, slap, and tentacle attacks. Bites, gores, and stings make no sense whatsoever, but I can definitely see the "arm" attacks qualifying. Still makes the Bebilith work. (Actually, I left out the Barbed Devil. And does the Death Slaad have the Stunning Fist feat? I don't have the Monster Manual.) Counter-Proposal: we allow natural attacks to qualify for Improved Grapple, but not Deflect/Snatch Arrows nor Stunning Fist. It makes the Bebilith (and Barbed Devil) work, and it doesn't allow donkeys to be ninjas (just professional wrestlers).
MindWandererB 10-19-06, 04:53 PM	Well, let's see what folks have complained about before: actually, it's pretty much just the grappling warhorse. We can nix that, plus the donkey ninja, in one go, if we prohibit it to "arm" attacks. On the other hand, there are critters like the giant crocodile which really ought to qualify for Improved Grapple based on their bite. Conversely, I can totally see a dragon or wereeagle being able to deflect arrows with their claws/talons. Stunning Fist makes no sense for any of these--it has to be an unarmed strike in any event. Hmm... I'm starting to see why a firm rule was never made in the first place. At least the Barbed Devil has Improved Grab, which causes it to make sense, but I can't explain the bebilith. How about: a claw, talon, slam, slap, or tentacle attack, or the Improved Grab ability, allows qualification for Improved Grapple. A claw, talon, slam, slap, or tentacle attack allows qualification for Deflect Arrows. Only IUS allows Stunning Fist.
Zevox 10-19-06, 04:54 PM	(Actually, I left out the Barbed Devil. And does the Death Slaad have the Stunning Fist feat? I don't have the Monster Manual.) Nope - they just have Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Multiattack, and Power Attack. Zevox
hogarth 10-19-06, 04:56 PM	Conversely, I can totally see a dragon or wereeagle being able to deflect arrows with their claws/talons. Sure, if they have some sort of martial arts training. We could even make that martial arts training into its own feat. I don't know what I'd call it though; something about improving one's unarmed strike, maybe? ;)
MindWandererB 10-19-06, 04:58 PM	Sure, if they have some sort of martial arts training. We could even make that martial arts training into its own feat. I don't know what I'd call it though; something about improving one's unarmed strike, maybe? ;) Feat=training. Deflect Arrows should reflect the training required to deflect arrows. There's no reason why something with claws should learn how to attack with its fists.
Gonbow 10-19-06, 05:02 PM	In addition to Monster Manual reasons, there is also a direct quote out of Savage Species that states that Natural weapons = I.U.S for the purpose of qualifying for feats. However, that isn't core, so you just have to go by the various examples in the MM that state the same thing and the occasional tech support answer that also says the same thing. It'd be useful if they stuck it in a core FAQ, of course.
hogarth 10-19-06, 05:09 PM	Well, let's see what folks have complained about before: actually, it's pretty much just the grappling warhorse. We can nix that, plus the donkey ninja, in one go, if we prohibit it to "arm" attacks. Actually, the easiest way to prohibit both of those would be to bar creatures of animal intelligence from learning feats from the Improved Unarmed Strike tree. Considering the Rules of Gladius already states (under customizing allies): You may also add a new feat but please use common sense here! that seems quite reasonable.
Gonbow 10-19-06, 06:03 PM	Actually, the easiest way to prohibit both of those would be to bar creatures of animal intelligence from learning feats from the Improved Unarmed Strike tree. Considering the Rules of Gladius already states (under customizing allies): that seems quite reasonable. So what, any of the various hunting animals whose primary mode of successfully catching prey is grappling would be S.O.L? (Big cats, mostly, also some carnivorous primates; which are statted in D&D, yes.) Sorry, doesn't make sense flavorwise. I'd rather have grappling horses and ninja donkeys, given the fairly clear RAI (to the point that it has been printed as so) interaction of natural weapons and I.U.S.
TheMagister 10-19-06, 07:05 PM	Sorry, I'm old-school. If it sounds stoopid, don't allow it. You know, like arrow deflecting crocodiles, ninja donkeys, and grappling horses. :rolleyes:
Zelck 10-19-06, 07:13 PM	Why can't the equine or crocodile just knock the arrow aside with their head or nose or something?
SauroGrenom 10-19-06, 07:20 PM	How about: a claw, talon, slam, slap, or tentacle attack, or the Improved Grab ability, allows qualification for Improved Grapple. A claw, talon, slam, slap, or tentacle attack allows qualification for Deflect Arrows. Only IUS allows Stunning Fist.Doing things like this may be reasonable, but they are totally house rules. That's getting onto a dangerous slippery slope. We try to avoid making up totally new rules unless we absolutely need them and the scope of the new house rule is narrow and well defined. I just don't think deflect arrows on a donkey is game breaking enough to warrant new made up rules. Yes ninja donkeys and wrester horses fail the reasonable reality test. Even so I don't think it's a big enough problem that we must invent a house rule.
TheMagister 10-19-06, 07:29 PM	Why can't the equine or crocodile just knock the arrow aside with their head or nose or something? 'Cause when fired arrows meet horse/croc heads they penetrate them. Oh, and because they're using their natural weapons to deflect the arrows. That horse is biting or kicking the speeding arrow out of the air. The croc (crock, really) is biting or tail slapping the speeding arrow. I mean, c'mon. I'm all for suspension of reality, but that's just too much.
hogarth 10-19-06, 07:30 PM	I just don't think deflect arrows on a donkey is game breaking enough to warrant new made up rules. Yes ninja donkeys and wrester horses fail the reasonable reality test. Even so I don't think it's a big enough problem that we must invent a house rule. But the whole point is that allowing natural attacks to qualify for Improved Unarmed Strike is not in the Core rules! There's already a "new made up" house rule in play here. All I'm recommending is removing it and going to what the Core rules state -- you need IUS to qualify for the other feats.
TheMagister 10-19-06, 07:35 PM	I agree. Don't you guys think that it's time that we entertained the idea that the Improved Grapple feat inclusion in the Bebilith monster description was either: a) an oversight...they meant Improved Grab; or b) a purposeful inclusion, so that Bebiliths can grab things and pin them and (gasp) retrieve them without killing them, and was included "just because it fits" and "because we say so". I've always been uncomfortable with extrapolating rules to include every creature from only ONE instance of it occuring in ONE specialized creature. It's the only instance of its kind...not enough (IMO) to base a global ruling off of. Ok. I'm done.
Zevox 10-19-06, 07:41 PM	@ TM - Side note here (not disagreeing with you), but there are two instances - Bebiliths and Hamatulas (Barbed Devils). Zevox
SauroGrenom 10-19-06, 07:55 PM	But the whole point is that allowing natural attacks to qualify for Improved Unarmed Strike is not in the Core rules! There's already a "new made up" house rule in play here. All I'm recommending is removing it and going to what the Core rules state -- you need IUS to qualify for the other feats.On the contrary, we already have an example in the core rules that allows a natural attack to satisfy the prerequisite for improved grapple (the bebilith). Clearly it's in the core rules. This is infact very simular to allowing the centaur to qualify as mounted for mounted feats like rideby attack and spirited charge (this is mentioned in the description of the Zelekhut as being simular to the centaur but it is not in the description of a centaur). The equivalence of Improved Unarmed Strike to Natural attacks is in the core rules. We've been over this so many times before... No one is saying anything new. If the bebilith is a typo, ask the SRD people to correct it in the errata. I recall someone saying something about a vampire in one of the books having deflect arrows or improved grapple without IUS. That was a while back and I've never found the reference. I don't have all the books, so is someone knows about it there would be a second clear example. We only need one, but two is nice.
hogarth 10-19-06, 08:26 PM	On the contrary, we already have an example in the core rules that allows a natural attack to satisfy the prerequisite for improved grapple (the bebilith). Basing new rules on what it says in a monster entry seems odd. I guess we'll have to make another new rule: Psionic Dodge doesn't require Dodge as a prerequisite. Why? Because the Blue (goblin) has Psionic Dodge as a psion bonus feat without Dodge. :rolleyes:
NiQil 10-19-06, 09:33 PM	Basing new rules on what it says in a monster entry seems odd. I guess we'll have to make another new rule: Psionic Dodge doesn't require Dodge as a prerequisite. Why? Because the Blue (goblin) has Psionic Dodge as a psion bonus feat without Dodge. :rolleyes: Actually, that is perfectly fine. Bonus feats do not have to meet prereq's.
hogarth 10-19-06, 09:36 PM	Actually, that is perfectly fine. Bonus feats do not have to meet prereq's. A psion's bonus feats don't have to meet prereqs? Score!! :D My point is: don't read too much into non-errata'ed mistakes in monster entries -- they don't necessarily imply some secret rule somewhere, they're just "quirks".
Zevox 10-19-06, 09:39 PM	Actually, that is perfectly fine. Bonus feats do not have to meet prereq's. This is a class bonus feat NiQil, not one granted to Blues in general. Zevox
NiQil 10-19-06, 09:49 PM	According to the errata, it is marked as a bonus feat just like the bonus feats that are granted to animals. It has the little B next to it that is used to mark bonus feats on the badger, dog, riding dog, wolf and wolverine. It may have been intended as the psion 1st level bonus feat, but that is not how it is listed. Or am I missing something?
hogarth 10-19-06, 09:58 PM	According to the errata, it is marked as a bonus feat just like the bonus feats that are granted to animals. It has the little B next to it that is used to mark bonus feats on the badger, dog, riding dog, wolf and wolverine. It may have been intended as the psion 1st level bonus feat, but that is not how it is listed. Or am I missing something? If it's a racial bonus feat, then the Blue psion is missing a psion bonus feat. If it's a psion bonus feat, then it's missing a prerequisite. Whichever way you interpret it, it's an error.
Zevox 10-19-06, 09:59 PM	Or am I missing something? How about the fact that the character entry for Blues does not mention them getting Psionic Dodge as a bonus feat? It would if this were a bonus feat of the type you're referencing. Rather telling, wouldn't you say? Zevox
NiQil 10-19-06, 10:01 PM	If it's a racial bonus feat, then the Blue psion is missing a psion bonus feat. If it's a psion bonus feat, then it's missing a prerequisite. Whichever way you interpret it, it's an error. You are definately correct there...there is an error there. I am inclined, however, to believe that they omitted the psion bonus feat, since they have psionic dodge clearly marked as a racial bonus feat. But either could be true.
MindWandererB 10-20-06, 02:02 AM	There's nothing in the notation that distinguishes a racial bonus feat from a class bonus feat. Actually, I take that back. Some sources use a B to designate a class bonus feat, but others don't. So it is racial, it is legal, and it is missing a feat.
NiQil 10-20-06, 02:12 AM	There's nothing in the notation that distinguishes a racial bonus feat from a class bonus feat. Actually, I take that back. Some sources use a B to designate a class bonus feat, but others don't. So it is racial, it is legal, and it is missing a feat. We agree on something! Someone alert the media! :P
McJarvis 10-20-06, 02:14 AM	Cross-posted in tavarn. Can someone give me a list of weapons with listen check DC's? I can't find any reference in the rules that give listen check DC's to longbows, and I'd rather know for future reference what we're adding in.... Specifically for: Longbow Shortbow Crossbow(heavy/light/hand) Sling Thrown weapons I want to know the listen DC's associated with these weapons, or just have it ruled that MS affects how ranged weapons are used as well. It is VERY important that I understand how CoCo rules treat all these for my tactics-writing of Mort...and so that if a Pitlord does something "x" way I can either think to myself "yes, this is how it is supposed to be done in CoCo" or very verbally say "No Pitlord, you messed up :P" Overall this is already very inconvenient for me since Mort is mid-cycle and I had no way of knowing the listen-DC rules in place for composite longbows. (I would definately have packed throwing daggers or darts or spears if I had known this- and it was not clearly posted anywhere) edit- Furthermore, if it is ruled that the listen DC's are not set by MS,(Which I believe is actual Core Rules) I think this needs to be posted in either the Listen skill descriptor of CoCo or Court Decisions thread. It is currently in neither. Bump again. No Elders want to answer?:( If I don't get an answer I'll just have to *assume* that Move Silently is the check used for all these actions...
MindWandererB 10-20-06, 02:15 AM	We agree on something! Someone alert the media! :P<sigh> I've said it before, and I'll say it again--if I agree with you, I just won't say anything, unless there are a bunch of people arguing against you and I think they're wrong. I actually agree with most of what you say, but since you have that Elder clout, you don't need anyone backing you up. @McJarvis: Go with that for now. We might hash out something a little more complicated later, but using MS is a good rule of thumb in the absence of anything more official.
Stormwind 10-20-06, 09:12 AM	A point has come up in the prison regarding max skill ranks which would need an elder ruling to clarify. What are the max skill ranks for a character with an LA? The maximum rank in a class skill is the character’s level + 3. If it’s a cross-class skill, the maximum rank is half of that number (do not round up or down). Regardless of whether a skill is purchased as a class skill or a cross-class skill, if it is a class skill for any of your classes, your maximum rank equals your total character level + 3. The point of contention is whether: Total character level = ECL or Total characer level = Hit die + Class levels In the SRD, there are several examples of monsters that have more ranks than would be allowed if you do not include +LA in Total character levels. There monsters include the astral deva (listen, spot), yeth hound (listen, spot, search, survival), and gynosphinx (listen, spot). The yeth hound is a particulary good example because all of it's skills are exactly equal to: ranks (HD+LA+3) + ability mod.
hogarth 10-20-06, 09:22 AM	In the SRD, there are several examples of monsters that have more ranks than would be allowed if you do not include +LA in Total character levels. There monsters include the astral deva (listen, spot), yeth hound (listen, spot, search, survival), and gynosphinx (listen, spot). The yeth hound is a particulary good example because all of it's skills are exactly equal to: ranks (HD+LA+3) + ability mod. My contention is that these are all typos. Note that the astral deva is a poor example, since (as written) it has 4 too many skill points. Also note that the hellcat (hide), dwarf warrior [!] (spot, listen), solar (knowledge/craft) and titan (jump) have ranks which exceed the maximum and yet none of them have a level adjustment (except for the dwarf which has a +0 LA). Here are some definitions from the glossary (in case it helps decide): character level A character's total level. For a character with levels in only one class, class level and character level are the same thing. Source: PHB effective character level This number represents a creature's overall power relative to that of a character from the Player's Handbook. A creature with an effective character level (ECL) of 10 is roughly equivalent to a 10th-level character. A creature's ECL is the sum of its Hit Dice (including class levels) and level adjustment. For instance, a splinterwaif has 2 HD and a +4 level adjustment. It is the equivalent of a 6th-level character. Source: MM, MM3
Erithmu 10-20-06, 09:58 AM	@Storm: What your missing is that in the Deva's +8 LA there are some racial bonuses to those skills. If there was a layout of 'how to build an Astra Deva' those racial bonuses would be listed. (In savage species the Deva has +4 spot and Listen racial bonuses) The MM entries are built to be an ease of use for a DM, who doesn't have time to care where all the bonuses come from. In the CoCo we 'are' concerned about where every bonus comes from.
hogarth 10-20-06, 10:03 AM	(In savage species the Deva has +4 spot and Listen racial bonuses) Hmm...perhaps in the conversion from 3.0 to 3.5, the racial bonuses got replaced with the Alertness feat but they forgot to lower the skill modifier accordingly.
MindWandererB 10-20-06, 12:55 PM	Yes... "character level" is defined as the same thing as "all class levels + Racial HD" in all cases, which is another way of saying "total HD." There are a lot of errors in skill point allocation in the MM, and even more in later sources. You have to reverse-engineer the ranks to figure it out.
Gonbow 10-20-06, 01:49 PM	How is wildshape into animals with humanoid shapes handled? Does his equipment still meld into the form if he wildshapes into it? Or would he have to take all his equipment off, then put it on again after wildshaping?
MindWandererB 10-20-06, 01:53 PM	How is wildshape into animals with humanoid shapes handled? Does his equipment still meld into the form if he wildshapes into it? Or would he have to take all his equipment off, then put it on again after wildshaping? The druid Wildshape ability has this text: —Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When the druid reverts to her true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on her body that they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet. Humanoid, non-humanoid, doesn't matter. You lose it all unless you take it off first.
SauroGrenom 10-20-06, 02:40 PM	Can someone give me a list of weapons with listen check DC's? I can't find any reference in the rules that give listen check DC's to longbows, and I'd rather know for future reference what we're adding in.... Specifically for: Longbow Shortbow Crossbow(heavy/light/hand) Sling Thrown weapons I want to know the listen DC's associated with these weapons, or just have it ruled that MS affects how ranged weapons are used as well. It is VERY important that I understand how CoCo rules treat all these for my tactics-writing of Mort...and so that if a Pitlord does something "x" way I can either think to myself "yes, this is how it is supposed to be done in CoCo" or very verbally say "No Pitlord, you messed up " Overall this is already very inconvenient for me since Mort is mid-cycle and I had no way of knowing the listen-DC rules in place for composite longbows. (I would definately have packed throwing daggers or darts or spears if I had known this- and it was not clearly posted anywhere) edit- Furthermore, if it is ruled that the listen DC's are not set by MS,(Which I believe is actual Core Rules) I think this needs to be posted in either the Listen skill descriptor of CoCo or Court Decisions thread. It is currently in neither.No one is answering, because there is nothing for us to grip and leverage on the question. Weapons with any kind of listen DC is not core. There is nothing in the rules about hearing weapons being used. In reality we know that drawing a sword results in a sound that could be heard. But it's not in the core rules that drawing a weapon or using a weapon for that matter has a DC to be heard. The closest thing I can find is the Listen skill lists a -10DC to hear a battle. What qualifies as a battle? A sword hitting a shield is probably loud and would qualify as a battle. Hitting an unarmored foe with an arrow could be very silent in comparison but not totally silent either. Drawing your sword and charging would be the beginning of a battle. The whole twang of a bow string idea is reasonable to an extent since it is part of a battle. I don't realy know the answer to your question. The core rules are slim on this issue, and we don't have much to use to make a ruling. A good solid answer would require making up a bunch of stuff (as DM do on a regular basis). A firm appeal to reasonable standards would require having different listen DC's to hear someone draw a spiked chain than to draw a dagger. Attacks with a heavy crossbow would have a lower listen DC than hand crossbows. I don't feel like the community would accept a new block of house rules which have no basis in the core books. If cornered on the issue, I'd say that attacking with any weapon is a battle, so the resulting listen check DC is -10 which can be used to pinpoint. That seams harsh, but it's the closest we can come to finding something in the rules on the issue.
McJarvis 10-20-06, 02:47 PM	So...a MS check at -10?
MindWandererB 10-20-06, 02:54 PM	So...a MS check at -10? Hm. We need a tiebreaker. A Flat DC of -10 is too harsh for my tastes, plus I think skill should be involved. An MS check at -10 would be a pure house rule--if anything, it would be at -20 (standard penalty for MS in combat). But again, I think that's too harsh, since battle hasn't actually been engaged yet.
McJarvis 10-20-06, 02:56 PM	Ah, I see...you don't just combine all the answers all the elders give you. Makes sense ;)
Zelck 10-20-06, 02:57 PM	@McJarvis: no, he means Listen DC -10. The closest thing I can find is the Listen skill lists a -10DC to hear a battle. What qualifies as a battle? A sword hitting a shield is probably loud and would qualify as a battle. Hitting an unarmored foe with an arrow could be very silent in comparison but not totally silent either. Drawing your sword and charging would be the beginning of a battle. The whole twang of a bow string idea is reasonable to an extent since it is part of a battle. I don't realy know the answer to your question. The core rules are slim on this issue, and we don't have much to use to make a ruling. A good solid answer would require making up a bunch of stuff (as DM do on a regular basis). A firm appeal to reasonable standards would require having different listen DC's to hear someone draw a spiked chain than to draw a dagger. Attacks with a heavy crossbow would have a lower listen DC than hand crossbows. I don't feel like the community would accept a new block of house rules which have no basis in the core books. If cornered on the issue, I'd say that attacking with any weapon is a battle, so the resulting listen check DC is -10 which can be used to pinpoint. That seams harsh, but it's the closest we can come to finding something in the rules on the issue. First off, I'm not an Elder ;). But, I don't think that ruling works too well. A battle involves people yelling, the clang of metal on metal, screams, the pounding of many feet/hooves/whatevers, etc. This is also essentially guts sniper-type characters. In my not official opinion, an MS check with at most a -5 or -10 penalty should be used.
McJarvis 10-20-06, 02:58 PM	@McJarvis: no, he means Listen DC -10. Erm..yeah...I was trying to combine Mindwander's answer and his into one uber-elder answer...or something...
hogarth 10-20-06, 03:00 PM	An MS check at -10 would be a pure house rule--if anything, it would be at -20 (standard penalty for MS in combat). There's no "standard penalty for MS in combat" listed in the skill description; just a penalty for MS while running or charging. Maybe you're thinking of the penalty for hiding while attacking.
Zelck 10-20-06, 03:03 PM	Yea. If we want to avoid houserules, the best way to do it would be to make it a Listen vs. MS check with no additional modifiers beyond what normally applies. Simple as that. If we want balance, we could apply at most a -10 penalty to MS (distance, no +listen item w/o credits).
MindWandererB 10-20-06, 03:04 PM	There's no "standard penalty for MS in combat" listed in the skill description; just a penalty for MS while running or charging. Maybe you're thinking of the penalty for hiding while attacking. Grr. I keep forgetting that. For Hide, it's while running, charging, or attacking. But then, a DC of -10 is basically the same thing as zero modifier, take 10, -20 penalty.
McJarvis 10-20-06, 03:05 PM	The listen check would also be for where the "battle" is taking place, meaning the user could pinpoint...the arena. I doubt a halfling sneaking around two fighters fighting would make more noise than one not doing so. Also, I doublt that same halfling would make more noise himself while throwing a dagger at a tree than throwing it at one of the two fighters. Using my own interpretation- the battle is where the people who are getting hurt are.(you could hear the dagger hit the tree- you could hear the dagger hit the fighter)
SauroGrenom 10-20-06, 03:23 PM	Hm. We need a tiebreaker. A Flat DC of -10 is too harsh for my tastes, plus I think skill should be involved. An MS check at -10 would be a pure house rule--if anything, it would be at -20 (standard penalty for MS in combat). But again, I think that's too harsh, since battle hasn't actually been engaged yet. Battle begins with initiative. So all coco fights are battle. In any case MS is not the appropreat skill. You aren't moving when you are attacking. The movement is not what is heard. You are attacking. That attack makes noise. There is no attack silently skill.
SauroGrenom 10-20-06, 03:31 PM	The listen check would also be for where the "battle" is taking place, meaning the user could pinpoint...the arena. I doubt a halfling sneaking around two fighters fighting would make more noise than one not doing so. Also, I doublt that same halfling would make more noise himself while throwing a dagger at a tree than throwing it at one of the two fighters. Using my own interpretation- the battle is where the people who are getting hurt are.(you could hear the dagger hit the tree- you could hear the dagger hit the fighter)With your example of a thrown weapon, perhaps the sound would emanate from the location damage takes place. However whenever a gun is fired you hear a sound from the location of the shooter. Simularly whenever a bow or crossbow is fired, you hear a sound from the location of the archer. That sound is not as loud as a gun, but it is certianly detectable. In any case it's all moot. These kinds of thoughts are all reasonable, but they are not supported by core rules. There is no core skill for attack silently.
McJarvis 10-20-06, 03:33 PM	With your example of a thrown weapon, perhaps the sound would emanate from the location damage takes place. However whenever a gun is fired you hear a sound from the location of the shooter. Simularly whenever a bow or crossbow is fired, you hear a sound from the location of the archer. That sound is not as loud as a gun, but it is certianly detectable. In any case it's all moot. These kinds of thoughts are all reasonable, but they are not supported by core rules. There is no core skill for attack silently. Where the sound originates from isn't moot & isn't specified in the rules one way or the other. edit- Would it be a case-by-case basis, or would you want to say that the sound originates from both the shooter & the target?
SauroGrenom 10-20-06, 03:36 PM	Yea. If we want to avoid houserules, the best way to do it would be to make it a Listen vs. MS check with no additional modifiers beyond what normally applies. Simple as that. If we want balance, we could apply at most a -10 penalty to MS (distance, no +listen item w/o credits). I'm sorry, but I totally dissagree with this suggestion. Making a move silently check apply to attacking silently is like using the heal skill for concentration checks on cure spells in combat. It's not the appropreat skill for the task at hand. The issue is that there is no skill that is used to attack silently. Move Silently is obviously not the appropreat skill to attack silently or even to snipe silently. Move silently allows you to get into position and move position undetected. The skill does not make everything you do silent. No wizard can use move silently to cast silently. No monk can use move silently to silently ram his fist into a foe's face. Simularly no character can use move silently to attack silently. The only core rule we have is that Battle has a listen DC of -10. There is nothing specific about what is Battle. I think battle is whenever initiative is rolled and one character attacks another.
Zelck 10-20-06, 03:41 PM	My thoughts on Move Silently was not that the bow makes noise, but the attacker tries not to make noise. The DC -10 battle thing is nonsensical. Izumi has a pole with like 20 bells, and that's a DC -10 listen check. So... there's a sneaky sniper quietly moving into position, and he takes a shot, and all of a sudden the bowstring makes the noise of 20 clanging bells? Louder than a yell?
MindWandererB 10-20-06, 03:41 PM	Well, I have a couple of quotes by way of argument. In the case of people trying to be quiet, the DCs given on the table could be replaced by Move Silently checks, in which case the indicated DC would be their average check result. Note that it doesn't say "people trying to move quietly" but "people trying to be quiet." If people are trying to battle quietly, a DC of -10 would be the average check result with no ranks and a -20 penalty. Action: None. A Move Silently check is included in your movement or other activity, so it is part of another action.Emphasis mine. No elaboration needed.
SauroGrenom 10-20-06, 03:43 PM	Where the sound originates from isn't moot & isn't specified in the rules one way or the other. Yes the origin of a sound that cannot be "silenced" by using a skill is irrelevant to a discussion about what the DC on hearing the attack is. Thus it is moot. As I said before the only thing we have in the rules is that Battle has a listen DC of -10. The most reasonable definition of battle in our rules system is an attack of some kind targeting another creature.
McJarvis 10-20-06, 03:44 PM	I think saur has a good point here, as much as I hate to admit it. Any ruling made will be a house ruling & ultimately the house ruling will need to be complex. What of my dagger-tossing halfling example? Surely he doesn't make as much noise as a bow does. Or someone using a sling? I've never used one in real life- but I'd imagine it makes a tad bit less sound than a bow and more noise than a thrown weapon. Essentially, any house rule covered won't encompass them all :( Time to get out my Cleric sniper that I've been hiding....
McJarvis 10-20-06, 03:45 PM	Yes the origin of a sound that cannot be "silenced" by using a skill is irrelevant to a discussion about what the DC on hearing the attack is. Thus it is moot. As I said before the only thing we have in the rules is that Battle has a listen DC of -10. The most reasonable definition of battle in our rules system is an attack of some kind targeting another creature. My point was that with certain weapons the "sounds of battle" won't come from the attacker necessarily. The listen DC is there, but what it's a DC to pinpoint is not. Unless you want the person to "pinpoint" that battle is happening in a certain area...or both people involved in the battle, as I suggested might be the case before...
Zelck 10-20-06, 03:47 PM	As I said before the only thing we have in the rules is that Battle has a listen DC of -10. The most reasonable definition of battle in our rules system is an attack of some kind targeting another creature. Again, a DC of -10 is equivalent to people yelling, 20 bells clanging, or a person wearing an improperly donned half plate holding a tower shield trying to move silently with 4 dex. That is NOT how much noise a bowstring or a sneaky attack makes.
Gonbow 10-20-06, 03:48 PM	I'm sorry, but I totally dissagree with this suggestion. Making a move silently check apply to attacking silently is like using the heal skill for concentration checks on cure spells in combat. It's not the appropreat skill for the task at hand. The issue is that there is no skill that is used to attack silently. Move Silently is obviously not the appropreat skill to attack silently or even to snipe silently. Move silently allows you to get into position and move position undetected. The skill does not make everything you do silent. No wizard can use move silently to cast silently. No monk can use move silently to silently ram his fist into a foe's face. Simularly no character can use move silently to attack silently. The only core rule we have is that Battle has a listen DC of -10. There is nothing specific about what is Battle. I think battle is whenever initiative is rolled and one character attacks another. My 2 non-elder cents: A battle is alot more than one attack. It's everything going on in a battle. Thus, the DC to realize that a battle is going on and the general area it is going on in, is very low. Nowhere in the core rules does it state that individual attacks cause noise or that they can be detected with Listen. (While logic dictates they do/could, logic also dictates that a Fireball would set things on fire. But it doesn't, because this is a game and everything has to be balanced in terms of what it can and cannot do.) Thus, there should be no listen checks for individual attacks and Listen DCs are modified by what they are normally modified by; the other person's move silently, distance, etc. Because anything else would be a houserule... the kind of thing we are trying to avoid. As far as I can see, CoCo introduces houserules when something is unbalanced or to bring the gameplay closer to that of a TT campaign in terms of what is viable/possible. I don't think sniping without listen modifiers is unbalanced, the -20 to hide is pretty hefty and any further penalties will either not likely effect it (-5 on move silently? Pff) or completely nerf it (-10 DC to pinpoint?) neither of which seems to be needed. Of course... more elder support for this view would be appreciated ^_^ EDIT: Or we can just use move silently, as per it's qoute it includes 'other activity'. Also known as 'nearly everything'. Heh.
SauroGrenom 10-20-06, 04:57 PM	My thoughts on Move Silently was not that the bow makes noise, but the attacker tries not to make noise. The DC -10 battle thing is nonsensical. Izumi has a pole with like 20 bells, and that's a DC -10 listen check. So... there's a sneaky sniper quietly moving into position, and he takes a shot, and all of a sudden the bowstring makes the noise of 20 clanging bells? Louder than a yell?I agree that it sounds unreasonable. But I didn't write the rules. It's not within my power to modify or create new core rules. Infact there are lots of things I'd change if I could. The monk class wouldn't be a joke for one. But my name isn't Skip Williams, and I'm not The Sage. I don't get to write new core rules.
Zelck 10-20-06, 05:01 PM	Right, but we can get around that simply by interpreting "battle" differently. If we say a "battle" involves the clanging of metal on metal and yells (i.e. a melee), then it would make a lot more sense and preserve the core rules.
SauroGrenom 10-20-06, 05:09 PM	Well, I have a couple of quotes by way of argument. Note that it doesn't say "people trying to move quietly" but "people trying to be quiet." What skill are the peple using to be quiet? Is there a stand still silently skill? Is there a whisper silently skill? Is there a fish scroll out of your pack silently skill? The only skill about doing things silently is the Move Silently skill. Naturaly moving silently is what that skill applies to. To suggest otherwise is like saying that the heal skill should be used for casting cure spells in combat. It may be reasonable, but it's not what the rules tell us the skill is used for. If people are trying to battle quietly, a DC of -10 would be the average check result with no ranks and a -20 penalty. Emphasis mine. No elaboration needed.I assume people are using the Battle Silently skill untrained. Is Battle Silently a core skill? I don't recall reading that one.
SauroGrenom 10-20-06, 05:19 PM	Right, but we can get around that simply by interpreting "battle" differently. If we say a "battle" involves the clanging of metal on metal and yells (i.e. a melee), then it would make a lot more sense and preserve the core rules. So battle without melee is silent? Cummon. No way. There is no core distinction between ranged battle and the one with lightning bolts or charging knights and lances. They are all battle. If you want to make a distinction, go ahead it's even reasonable to so do, but that's not in the rules. All we have is that battle is fighting. You may fight with thrown dagger, but I use a fireball. The rules make no distinction between a knife fight between rogues, or an archers battle or 50 knights on warhorses in full plate or the Tarasque. The rules don't fit reality perfectly, and the DM is their to make an ad-hoc ruling on the listen DC in all situations. We don't have a DM to make those calls on a case by case basis. So they never get made. In CoCo that means we are stuck with inadiquacies of what rules actually say. In this case move silently doesn't allow you to attack silently. So there is no skill you can apply to make your attack silent. Sorry, but you're stuck. The attacks of any kind can detected by a listen check of DC -10.
McJarvis 10-20-06, 05:22 PM	The attacks of any kind can detected by a listen check of DC -10. This still doesn't answer what someone will pinpoint when they make that DC+20 listen check. The location of "the noise" is up to interpretation. In the same way swinging a sword in mid-air won't make a "battle noise" by the rules, I'd argue that shooting a bow without an arrow wouldn't make a "battle noise" by the rules either. The noise heard should be where the shot hit. Unless you just want to accept a CoCo house-rule decision, since the rules don't really say anything about this point one way or the other. -_-
Zelck 10-20-06, 05:31 PM	So battle without melee is silent? Cummon. No way. There is no core distinction between ranged battle and the one with lightning bolts or charging knights and lances. They are all battle. If you want to make a distinction, go ahead it's even reasonable to so do, but that's not in the rules. All we have is that battle is fighting. You may fight with thrown dagger, but I use a fireball. The rules make no distinction between a knife fight between rogues, or an archers battle or 50 knights on warhorses in full plate or the Tarasque. A battle without melee may be silent, or it may not be silent. For one thing, the sniper could be "battling" without making noise. For another, there could be noise, but not enough to justify that -10 DC. Would a "battle" between two ghosts who're keeping silent have a -10 DC to listen? If all we're focusing on is the battle, then yes, but that's ridiculous! Let me remind you that -10 DC is louder than a yell. Heck, it's louder then the 0 DC we've been using to hear spellcasting all along! Maybe spellcasting should have a -10 DC as well? Besides, there are many different ways to interpret the word "battle". We could say it has to be a melee, or a big fight, or whatever makes sense. The rules don't fit reality perfectly, and the DM is their to make an ad-hoc ruling on the listen DC in all situations. We don't have a DM to make those calls on a case by case basis. So they never get made. In CoCo that means we are stuck with inadiquacies of what rules actually say. Then we could make an elder ruling clarifying this specific DC. The ruling that any hostile action towards another results in a -10 DC listen check would never see the light of a tabletop game, if we're using that as the standard. Trying to stealthily garote that king in his bedroom while his bodyguards stand guard on the other side of the door? You can't, because that's a -10 DC listen check. Come on... ETA: By the way, we currently force Move Silently checks even if you're not moving. For instance, reactive listen checks against a non-moving opponent.
MindWandererB 10-20-06, 06:20 PM	As far as I'm concerned, attacking involves movement--you're not paralyzed, after all.
SauroGrenom 10-20-06, 06:22 PM	A battle without melee may be silent, or it may not be silent. For one thing, the sniper could be "battling" without making noise. For another, there could be noise, but not enough to justify that -10 DC. Would a "battle" between two ghosts who're keeping silent have a -10 DC to listen? If all we're focusing on is the battle, then yes, but that's ridiculous! Let me remind you that -10 DC is louder than a yell. Heck, it's louder then the 0 DC we've been using to hear spellcasting all along! Maybe spellcasting should have a -10 DC as well? Besides, there are many different ways to interpret the word "battle". We could say it has to be a melee, or a big fight, or whatever makes sense.Spell casting is specificially stated to have a DC of 0. I don't care what is ridiculous. The game has ridiculous things going on all the time. Horses are 10' wide for one. Treants are specificially stated to be 30' tall, but they only occupy a 15' cube. When you grapple someone who is mounted, you just swing up onto their horse automaticially... Honestly I don't give a rat's ass what is ridiculous. The only thing that matters is what's in the rules. The ambiguity in the term battle is the crux of the rules debate. I say a battle is any time you roll an attack roll. You are claiming that a battle is anytime a person would expect lots of noise to result from fighting. My definition is based on a game mechanic. You definition is based on common sense. This is a game of rules and there is no DM to apply common sense as needed on a case by case basis. Then we could make an elder ruling clarifying this specific DC. The ruling that any hostile action towards another results in a -10 DC listen check would never see the light of a tabletop game, if we're using that as the standard. Trying to stealthily garote that king in his bedroom while his bodyguards stand guard on the other side of the door? OOPS! You can't, because that's a -10 DC listen check! Come on...So you want to make a new table of listen DC's for all sorts of attacks using all sorts of weapons. Sword attacking armored foe DC X. Sword attacking unarmored foe DC Y. Heavy Crossbow attack DC A. Reload Heavy Crossbow DC B. Mounted attacker with flail attacking unmounted defender with chain armor and buckler..... The list goes on and on and on.... What's the basis? Common sense? Common sense is not very persuasive in a fantasy setting or specificially in CoCo. My proposal to switch to EL based encounters had the same basis, and it was shot down by a chorus of opposition to making complicated new rules based only on common sense. This is exactially the same kind of situation. I say that a rogue who surprises you with his poisoned arrow sneak attack from the top of a cliff and takes out the party mage is a tougher encounter than the one caught naked. But there are no already existing core rules to detail how the EL changes due to various factors. Neither is there a well established core rules mechanic determining a reasonable listen DC to detect attacks of various kinds against various defenders in various situations. What you are suggesting is that we make totally new rules. To do that well involves a sweeping scope of new rules about listen checks on various actions and about expanding the utility of the move silently skill. I'm not going to make up those new rules. I certianly don't have the authority to make new core rules of any level of complexity. And as demonstrated by the EL argument the community is not willing to accept complicated house rule systems that try to mimic common sense.
SauroGrenom 10-20-06, 06:25 PM	As far as I'm concerned, attacking involves movement--you're not paralyzed, after all.The kind of movement in attacks is not a game mechanic. You have move actions and standard actions. An attack roll is not made with a move action.
Guildmaster (PSI) 10-20-06, 07:21 PM	oops wrong account.
SauroGrenom 10-20-06, 07:22 PM	Nowhere in the core rules does it state that individual attacks cause noise or that they can be detected with Listen.... Thus, there should be no listen checks for individual attacks and Listen DCs are modified by what they are normally modified by; the other person's move silently, distance, etc. Because anything else would be a houserule... the kind of thing we are trying to avoid.The perspective here is perfectly appropreat for a CoCo like setting. But in a typical game the DM just sets a listen DC, and the players make their checks. Yes you are correct, that nothing says specificially what is the listen DC for an individual attack. Infact what you suggest is a house rule. Listen DC's of individual attacks being modified by move silently checks and distance are house rules, because there is nothing in core rules about that. But the rules do say specificially that there is a listen DC for a battle. So as I mentioned with Zelck, the crux of the issue is what is a battle. I say that we use a game mechanic to define a battle. Specificially a battle begins when you roll an attack roll. That's the extent of my Elder Rules Clarifcation. That's not realy a house rule. That's just a clarification. As far as I can see, CoCo introduces houserules when something is unbalanced or to bring the gameplay closer to that of a TT campaign in terms of what is viable/possible. I don't think sniping without listen modifiers is unbalanced, the -20 to hide is pretty hefty and any further penalties will either not likely effect it (-5 on move silently? Pff) or completely nerf it (-10 DC to pinpoint?) neither of which seems to be needed.I'm not suggesting a -10 DC to pinpoint. I'm just saying that we simply read the rules. Clearly when battle begins, you have a DC -10 listen check to hear it. You must beat that roll by 20 to pinpoint, and typical modifiers of listen DC's apply. The only aspect of this that I'm clarifying is that whenever you make an attack roll, then battle is taking place.
Gonbow 10-20-06, 08:54 PM	Sauro, would you mind addressing MindwandererB's qoute of move silently? Since as it is written... Yes, Move Silently does equal Attack Silently as 'Attack' is an 'activity' which does not have a defined listen DC that is immutable (unlike say, casting a spell).
SauroGrenom 10-20-06, 09:35 PM	Alright let's get realy basic here...All skills are presented with a format of the skill description. This format includes 3 to 6 main sections titled as follows: Check: Action: Try Again: Special: Synergy: Untrained: The Check section tells us what the skill check is used for. In other words this tells us what you can do with a skill. The Action section tells us wether using the skill requires an action or not, and if so what kind of action is requierd to use the skill. The Try Again section tells us if you can re attempt the skill check on a failed check. The Special section gives us special modifiers to the skill check that may or nay not apply depending on various factors. The Synergy section lists other skills that may provide a synergy bonus on checks using this skill. The Untrained section tells us if a trained only skill has a limited use as untrained or if there is another obvious method to achieve the goal of the skill. Now let's look at the move silently skill and see what the skill allows a character to do. Obviously we look in the Check: section and it reads... Check: Your Move Silently check is opposed by the Listen check of anyone who might hear you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your full speed, you take a –5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to move silently while running or charging. Noisy surfaces, such as bogs or undergrowth, are tough to move silently across. When you try to sneak across such a surface, you take a penalty on your Move Silently check as indicated below...Clearly this skill is used for taking a character on the battle grid and moving them to another place without being heard by someone who fails a listen check. That's it. There is nothing in here that says you can use the skill for silent but deady farts. Nothing about silently picking your nose. Nothing about any use for the skill except moving silently. This should be the end of the issue. Except you want to look at the Action: section of the skill... Remember this is the section of the skill that tells us what kind of action it is to use the skill. Perhaps it is a full round action, perhaps a move action, or perhaps no action or even several weeks. The descrition states:Action: None. A Move Silently check is included in your movement or other activity, so it is part of another action.Ahhh, so there is no need to use an action all alone for using the skill. It is included in the action for movement. This doesn't tell us any thing about what the skill is able to be used for. All it says it that using the skill is not a seperate action in its self. The ambiguity of three words "or other activity" do not tell us about any new uses of the skill. Those three little words "or other activity" do not and cannot trump the details in the Check: section of the skill. If you allow that then you can bluff silently, and intimidate silently, and negotiate with diplomacy silently, and command your animals silently, and silently use the command word for a wand, and silently bash your sword against your shield, and a bard could use his inspire courage ability silently or silently set off nuclear explosions in North Korea. If such uses of the skill were to exist they would be listed above in the Check: section. These three little words allows all kinds of movement around the battle map that may be used in conjunction with other skills or feats or effects to be used along with this skill. So you can tumble silently, and you can climb silently, you could ride silently (although the mount isn't necessarily silent) and you can even fall silently as long as its durring your turn (since it still takes an action of some kind to use the skill).
MindWandererB 10-20-06, 11:50 PM	So you're saying that only move actions require MS checks? So 5' steps are always silent? And what about Withdraw or Run? Also not move actions (full-round). So, sorry, that argument doesn't fly. Spell casting is specificially stated to have a DC of 0.This is a CoCo house rule, actually. Why can CoCo-ers not whisper while casting? I've never agreed with this. Clearly this skill is used for taking a character on the battle grid and moving them to another place without being heard by someone who fails a listen check.Not clear to me. It says you can move up to half your speed at no penalty, so how about not moving at all? I'm just not making the same inference as you are. Ahhh, so there is no need to use an action all alone for using the skill. It is included in the action for movement.... or other activity. Don't forget that part, it's critical--all by itself, it implies that MS can be used for activities other than movement. You're right, it doesn't trump the "check" section, but the "check" section says nothing whatsoever about what you can and cannot use the skill for. It doesn't even say you use it to relocate yourself silently, just that you suffer a penalty if you do it too quickly. It says nothing about the action you're performing, just the fact that if someone is trying to use Listen, you oppose it with MS. In fact, I would read into this that any time someone uses Listen to try to hear you, it is opposed with your MS check. I don't think we're getting anywhere with this argument. You have support, I have support. Can another elder just say yea or nay? You don't even have to make an argument, just a decision to break the tie. Oh, and yay, I have my title now. Wonder if I should choose a new avatar to go with it?
Vathelokai 10-21-06, 02:33 AM	I've run into a rules problem in a quest I'm running and need a quick answer (thus I'm skipping asking in the tavern). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. This line is in a couple places in the SRD. I'm wondering what 'normal' means here. Vandalar has possessed a dragon with the magic jar spell. Vandalar can normally attack once. The dragon can normally attack with 6 natural weapon. Since Vandalar currently has 6 natural weapons, wouldn't it be normal to attack with any/all of his limbs? Which is correct?
TheMagister 10-21-06, 02:54 AM	I've always wondered about that...
MindWandererB 10-21-06, 05:52 AM	I've run into a rules problem in a quest I'm running and need a quick answer (thus I'm skipping asking in the tavern). This line is in a couple places in the SRD. I'm wondering what 'normal' means here. Vandalar has possessed a dragon with the magic jar spell. Vandalar can normally attack once. The dragon can normally attack with 6 natural weapon. Since Vandalar currently has 6 natural weapons, wouldn't it be normal to attack with any/all of his limbs? Which is correct? I've seen a lot of discussions on this one, and the general consensus (from developers, even) is that the wording on that is so bad that you should basically ignore it. It applies to things like ettins and mariliths, that have "more advantageous two-weapon attacks" than normal for their number of limbs.
hogarth 10-21-06, 09:16 AM	Does an incorporeal creature moving through the ground count as delaying or leaving the arena? Unfortunately for all those ghosts and shadows out there, I don't see how it's really any different than using Etherealness or Meld Into Stone (especially Meld Into Stone!) to meld into the floor. So I'd say there's a 10-round cumulative maximum on moving through objects, the same as for Etherealness or Meld Into Stone. And the same would go for moving by burrowing. Niqil and SauroGrenom have indicated that the floor might still be considered "part of the arena", so does that mean that Etherealness and Meld Into Stone are all right as long as you're hding in the floor?
Milov 10-21-06, 11:21 AM	Bit of a question here. Under the description of pixies it states: Pixies as Characters A pixie character exchanges its 1 HD of fey for its first class level. Now then, my question is this. Since Nixies lack a "Nixies as Characters" section, I'm curious as to if this HD exchange affects them as well, due to thier single HD of Fey. Anyone know? EDIT: Also a bit curious about a Nixie's favored class... Any answers to these would be VERY helpful.
Vathelokai 10-21-06, 12:29 PM	Now then, my question is this. Since Nixies lack a "Nixies as Characters" section, I'm curious as to if this HD exchange affects them as well, due to thier single HD of Fey. Anyone know? EDIT: Also a bit curious about a Nixie's favored class... Any answers to these would be VERY helpful. Well, the 'types, subtypes, and special abilities' section of the SRD says nothing about replacing HD, so rules as written are that only pixies get to do that. Compare to satyr, which keep their fey HD. Favored class: If I remember right, any creature that has racial HD uses it's race as a favored class.
Abyssal Stalker 10-21-06, 01:11 PM	Does an incorporeal creature moving through the ground count as delaying or leaving the arena? Unfortunately for all those ghosts and shadows out there, I don't see how it's really any different than using Etherealness or Meld Into Stone (especially Meld Into Stone!) to meld into the floor. So I'd say there's a 10-round cumulative maximum on moving through objects, the same as for Etherealness or Meld Into Stone. And the same would go for moving by burrowing. Niqil and SauroGrenom have indicated that the floor might still be considered "part of the arena", so does that mean that Etherealness and Meld Into Stone are all right as long as you're hding in the floor? Allthough not an elder, I have to address my point on the subject. We shouldn't have a general ruling whether something is dealying or not. This should be under the decision of the pitlord of the fight. Delaying is always a case-by-case. There can't and shouldn't be any strict decisions that something always is and something never is. It always depends on the situation.
Milov 10-21-06, 03:23 PM	Well, the 'types, subtypes, and special abilities' section of the SRD says nothing about replacing HD, so rules as written are that only pixies get to do that. Compare to satyr, which keep their fey HD. Favored class: If I remember right, any creature that has racial HD uses it's race as a favored class. Thanks. That's quite helpful :D
Stormwind 10-21-06, 03:24 PM	Does an incorporeal creature moving through the ground count as delaying or leaving the arena? Unfortunately for all those ghosts and shadows out there, I don't see how it's really any different than using Etherealness or Meld Into Stone (especially Meld Into Stone!) to meld into the floor. So I'd say there's a 10-round cumulative maximum on moving through objects, the same as for Etherealness or Meld Into Stone. And the same would go for moving by burrowing. Niqil and SauroGrenom have indicated that the floor might still be considered "part of the arena", so does that mean that Etherealness and Meld Into Stone are all right as long as you're hding in the floor? Just to interject my 10cents. As Sauro & NiQil have stated, the current understanding (or at least mine) is very much that moving through the floor, or objects within the arena is not subject to the 10 round cumulative "out of the arena" ruling. Furthermore, 5ft below the surface has always been considered part of the arena (particulary with burrowing). Thus I would say that using Etherealness and Meld into stone to move through the floor or objects within the arena is fine. Storm
Zelck 10-21-06, 03:31 PM	Just to interject my 10cents. As Sauro & NiQil have stated, the current understanding (or at least mine) is very much that moving through the floor, or objects within the arena is not subject to the 10 round cumulative "out of the arena" ruling. Furthermore, 5ft below the surface has always been considered part of the arena (particulary with burrowing). Thus I would say that using Etherealness and Meld into stone to move through the floor or objects within the arena is fine. Storm But leaving the prime material plane is considered going out of the arena, right? So Meld Into Stone would be OK, but not Etherealness?
Vathelokai 10-21-06, 07:10 PM	But leaving the prime material plane is considered going out of the arena, right? So Meld Into Stone would be OK, but not Etherealness? Correct; as to the implied question, creatures with dual planer existance (ghosts, blinkdogs) don't seem to count as being ethereal durring fights. I don't know if that was ever discussed or not, or just ignored since it complicates things.
Zelck 10-21-06, 07:12 PM	Correct; as to the implied question, creatures with dual planer existance (ghosts, blinkdogs) don't seem to count as being ethereal durring fights. I don't know if that was ever discussed or not, or just ignored since it complicates things. Well, as long as they're in the material plane, they're fine. An unmanifested ghost will still acrue DQ penalties.
SauroGrenom 10-22-06, 10:02 AM	Well, the 'types, subtypes, and special abilities' section of the SRD says nothing about replacing HD, so rules as written are that only pixies get to do that. Compare to satyr, which keep their fey HD. Favored class: If I remember right, any creature that has racial HD uses it's race as a favored class. I sorry, but you are wrong on the first count. The relevant SRD passage is as follows: Humanoids and Class Levels: Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels. The monster loses the attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, skills, and feats granted by its 1 monster HD and gains the attack bonus, save bonuses, skills, feats, and other class abilities of a 1st-level character of the appropriate class. Characters with more than 1 Hit Die because of their race do not get a feat for their first class level as members of the common races do, and they do not multiply the skill points for their first class level by four. Instead, they have already received a feat for their first Hit Die because of race, and they have already multiplied their racial skill points for their first Hit Die by four.Effectively, monsters with a level adjustment become multiclass character when they take class levels. A creature’s “monster class” is always a favored class, and the creature never takes XP penalties for having it.So the racial HD are a class in themselves. No xp penalty is incurred by those HD however.
Vathelokai 10-22-06, 10:11 AM	Unless I'm missreading, the first quote says 'humanoids and class levels'. Nixie are not humanoids (they're fey). It does say creatures right after that, but I'm pretty sure they're talking about lizardmen, troglodytes, etc. The second quote seems to back me up.
SauroGrenom 10-22-06, 10:27 AM	Yes the second quote backs you up. The first quote does say Humanoides and Class levels, but I get the impression that it applies to creatures of humanoid shape in this case. They are a little bit more flexable about the details in the description. I could be wrong, but I'd like to point out that all the classes with humanoid type and 1HD are already detailed as being viable classes with a xxxxMonster as Characters entry. We also have evidence that when the base creature has only 1HD, that it is replaced by class levels even if the type is not humanoid. The pixie is a good example. I cannot recall any others off the top of my head, but I'm sure they must be in the rules.
Vathelokai 10-22-06, 10:54 AM	I'd allow it in table top, but in this Rules as Written environment I'd like something more solid. I have no stake in this preticular debate, but I'm interested for future reference. Anyone else have any ideas?
tunagolem 10-22-06, 11:22 AM	That's what you'll have to do. How do I delete a PC?
hogarth 10-22-06, 11:31 AM	How do I delete a PC? Just tell Cat to remove the PC from the roster, and tell Niqil that the PC is defunct so he'll remove it from the Prison list. Then you can use that post to create a new gladiator, if you like.
Abyssal Stalker 10-22-06, 12:25 PM	Just tell Cat to remove the PC from the roster, and tell Niqil that the PC is defunct so he'll remove it from the Prison list. Then you can use that post to create a new gladiator, if you like. Actually, you shouldn't delete the characer. Just post to Cat that you want to retire him and then mark retired on the sheet. Deleting old characters is something that isn't encouraged to do. That is even said in the Rules of Gladius!
Abyssal Stalker 10-22-06, 12:30 PM	I would like to get a clear elder ruling on how the oh-so-wonderful bag of tricks should work? There are some things concerning it that aren't covered in the rules, at least not too well. -Do you need to "draw" it in order to use it, or is it OK to keep it hanging on your side and then pick up a ball from there? -When does the creature drawn act? Right after the character drawing it? Roll initiative? -Is the creature flat-footed when drawn? -How is the creature commanded? Handle animal? Just telling it what to do? Free action? Move action? -How does it work in conjunction with the 1/3 rule? This is rather important because it is so popular item and the description of the item isn't too well-written. I guess it wasn't originally ment to be used as a combat item.
McJarvis 10-22-06, 12:55 PM	I'm not suggesting a -10 DC to pinpoint. I'm just saying that we simply read the rules. Clearly when battle begins, you have a DC -10 listen check to hear it. You must beat that roll by 20 to pinpoint, and typical modifiers of listen DC's apply. The only aspect of this that I'm clarifying is that whenever you make an attack roll, then battle is taking place. Yeah, let's read the rules. To hear a "Battle"(which involves multiple people) it takes a -10. There's no way you could argue that a DC 10+mods check lets you pinpoint every single creature in that battle, though...that isn't supported by the rules at all. This is though. INVISIBILITY The ability to move about unseen is not foolproof. While they can’t be seen, invisible creatures can be heard, smelled, or felt. Invisibility makes a creature undetectable by vision, including darkvision. Invisibility does not, by itself, make a creature immune to critical hits, but it does make the creature immune to extra damage from being a ranger’s favored enemy and from sneak attacks. A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40). It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance). A creature can use hearing to find an invisible creature. A character can make a Listen check for this purpose as a free action each round. A Listen check result at least equal to the invisible creature’s Move Silently check result reveals its presence. (A creature with no ranks in Move Silently makes a Move Silently check as a Dexterity check to which an armor check penalty applies.) A successful check lets a character hear an invisible creature “over there somewhere.” It’s practically impossible to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature. A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creatureÂ’s location. Table: Listen Check DCs to Detect Invisible Creatures Invisible Creature Is . . . DC In combat or speaking 0 Moving at half speed Move Silently check result Moving at full speed Move Silently check result –4 Running or charging Move Silently check result –20 Some distance away +1 per 10 feet Behind an obstacle (door) +5 Behind an obstacle (stone wall) +15 I don't like it(stealth builds are nowhere near as powerful- except maybe chaucer now), but those are the rules. There's no way around it. DC 20+mods to pinpoint, DC 0+mods to just know something is out there. edit- Note that "Charging" does not count as "in combat" for some reason....? Also note that in that passage they give rules for "groping" for invisible opponents. Essentially you can make 2 touch attacks-each against a different square. I don't think I've seen that before. double edit- Note that this doesn't apply to incoporeal creatures: An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn’t wish to be. I always thought it said they had infinite MS, but instead it's just "They can't be heard" So much for non-ghost stealth characters:(
Gonbow 10-23-06, 03:10 PM	First off, Invisibility is not the same as stealth. Invisibility breaks alot of rules of stealth, but has different weaknesses, like detect magic and such. And on to other things.. What are the CoCo rules for the creation of the various incorporeal undead characters? (Intelligence modifiers come to mind, do we use the 'low intelligence' grading, or a straight penalty?) While incorporeal undead have no strength score listed as they have no ability to normally interact with physical objects; what about Ghost Touch objects? A incorporeal undead can wield a ghost-touch longsword for instance without a problem, but what would it's strength score be considered for doing so, or for encumberance measures? (A undead with multiple ghost-touch weapons and ghost-touch armor for instance... how much of it can they carry? How about physical objects put on top of/inside ghost-touch objects?) So should a incorporeal character have a pre-incorporeality strength score listed that is used for these instances? (How about two incorporeal creatures grappling!) Would it be 8? 10? Can/should I put points into it? EDIT: As far as grappling goes... text says Incorporeal creatures cannot grapple and that they are immune to grapples from corporeal creatures, a strict RAW would say they cant grapple each-other either, which is silly, but it does anwser that part of the question at least. What about age modifiers? Does an old human(oid) who becomes incorporeal retain his age modifiers? Can you have an 'old' incorporeal undead? One of the undead traits is shield proficiency if it is proficient with any armor. Would a shadow rogue then, be proficient with shields? And HP, do I always have the 1d12 hp for everything? Just racial HD? I know there was a thread on this when the various undead races were added to the playable character list but I cant find it and there is no more indepth explanations of these issues in the Rules of Gladius.
McJarvis 10-23-06, 03:15 PM	First off, Invisibility is not the same as stealth. Invisibility breaks alot of rules of stealth, but has different weaknesses, like detect magic and such. I think for listening purposes the same game mechanics should apply...it's essentially listen dc's vs unseen foes.
TheMagister 10-23-06, 03:53 PM	First off, Invisibility is not the same as stealth. Invisibility breaks alot of rules of stealth, but has different weaknesses, like detect magic and such. And on to other things.. What are the CoCo rules for the creation of the various incorporeal undead characters? (Intelligence modifiers come to mind, do we use the 'low intelligence' grading, or a straight penalty?) While incorporeal undead have no strength score listed as they have no ability to normally interact with physical objects; what about Ghost Touch objects? A incorporeal undead can wield a ghost-touch longsword for instance without a problem, but what would it's strength score be considered for doing so, or for encumberance measures? (A undead with multiple ghost-touch weapons and ghost-touch armor for instance... how much of it can they carry? How about physical objects put on top of/inside ghost-touch objects?) So should a incorporeal character have a pre-incorporeality strength score listed that is used for these instances? (How about two incorporeal creatures grappling!) Would it be 8? 10? Can/should I put points into it? EDIT: As far as grappling goes... text says Incorporeal creatures cannot grapple and that they are immune to grapples from corporeal creatures, a strict RAW would say they cant grapple each-other either, which is silly, but it does anwser that part of the question at least. What about age modifiers? Does an old human(oid) who becomes incorporeal retain his age modifiers? Can you have an 'old' incorporeal undead? One of the undead traits is shield proficiency if it is proficient with any armor. Would a shadow rogue then, be proficient with shields? And HP, do I always have the 1d12 hp for everything? Just racial HD? I know there was a thread on this when the various undead races were added to the playable character list but I cant find it and there is no more indepth explanations of these issues in the Rules of Gladius. I'm pretty sure in the Ghost entry in the MM they tell you that the abilities of a creature that obtains the template stay the same (while it is on the Ethereal Plane) as the original creature. So a human fighter with 16 str that "gets ghosted" has 16 str on the ethereal plane and -- Str on the Material. As far as I remember. Check the MM to doublecheck me. TM
Gonbow 10-23-06, 04:02 PM	I'm pretty sure in the Ghost entry in the MM they tell you that the abilities of a creature that obtains the template stay the same (while it is on the Ethereal Plane) as the original creature. So a human fighter with 16 str that "gets ghosted" has 16 str on the ethereal plane and -- Str on the Material. As far as I remember. Check the MM to doublecheck me. TM I'm not making a ghost, I'm making a shadow. Which is incorporeal but not ethereal. (Ethereal is another plane, Incorporeal is "just" no physical body) That said, if I could get a nod towards the same ruling being applied to Shadows and Allips, I'd be satisfied. There just isn't any current firm ruling as they are treated as seperate races rather than templates. EDIT: Another question, how does the Incorporeality's ability to 'not be heard' interact with ranks required for PrCs and Skill packages? I'm pretty sure this was asked before, but I forgot the response. Might I suggest an addition to the Court Decisions list/Rules of gladius as a footnote under Ghosts?
Stormwind 10-23-06, 04:49 PM	@Gonbow: I highly recommend reviewing the two following rules of the game articles: There, Not There (Part Three) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040928a) There, Not There (Part Four) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041005a) While I an not an Elder, since I have already created a Shadow character, I have already considered most of the same questions as you have posed. Thus to answer some of your questions (to the best of my knowledge): What are the CoCo rules for the creation of the various incorporeal undead characters? (Intelligence modifiers come to mind, do we use the 'low intelligence' grading, or a straight penalty?) As far as I am aware a Shadow would have the following racial bonuses/penalties to its abilities: +4 dex, -4 int, +2 wis, +2 cha While incorporeal undead have no strength score listed as they have no ability to normally interact with physical objects; what about Ghost Touch objects? A incorporeal undead can wield a ghost-touch longsword for instance without a problem, but what would it's strength score be considered for doing so, or for encumberance measures? (A undead with multiple ghost-touch weapons and ghost-touch armor for instance... how much of it can they carry? How about physical objects put on top of/inside ghost-touch objects?) So should a incorporeal character have a pre-incorporeality strength score listed that is used for these instances? (How about two incorporeal creatures grappling!) Would it be 8? 10? Can/should I put points into it? In There, Not There (Part Four) it specifies that ghost touch armor is considered weightless for an incorporeal creature. The same would apply to ghost touch weaponry. EDIT: As far as grappling goes... text says Incorporeal creatures cannot grapple and that they are immune to grapples from corporeal creatures, a strict RAW would say they cant grapple each-other either, which is silly, but it does anwser that part of the question at least. Incorporeal creatures grappling use their Charisma modifier in place of their strength modifier (see There, Not There (Part Four)). What about age modifiers? Does an old human(oid) who becomes incorporeal retain his age modifiers? Can you have an 'old' incorporeal undead? I don't know. I suppose you could apply the age modifiers to the base ability scores before the racial modifiers giving a -3 penalty to dex for a +2 to cha, wis and int (for old age). One of the undead traits is shield proficiency if it is proficient with any armor. Would a shadow rogue then, be proficient with shields? No. The undead traits refer only to the undead racial levels. A shadow is not listed as proficient with shields, thus a shadow rogue is not proficient with shields. And HP, do I always have the 1d12 hp for everything? Just racial HD? Just racial HD. Hope this helps. Storm
Gonbow 10-23-06, 07:45 PM	@Storm Wow, thanks. Answered a bunch of my questions and the articles are a nice find too. Is your shadow character still up in some form on the boards? I'm about to submit mine to the Uncon contest and I was wondering how the controlled shades worked, ally wise. IIRC they were treated like purchased allies in terms of affecting your rewards, right? EDIT: Ah-ha, found em. Odd. Your speed is listed as 40' fly, when the shadow in the SRD only has 30' fly. I don't see anything giving you a boost, is that an error?
MindWandererB 10-23-06, 08:17 PM	EDIT: Another question, how does the Incorporeality's ability to 'not be heard' interact with ranks required for PrCs and Skill packages? I'm pretty sure this was asked before, but I forgot the response. Might I suggest an addition to the Court Decisions list/Rules of gladius as a footnote under Ghosts?There's no ruling necessary. If ranks are required, you need ranks. However, if a check is necessary, you cannot fail. Anything else would require a footnote of some sort, but as it is, ghosts and other incorporeal creatures follow the same rules as everyone else.
Abyssal Stalker 10-24-06, 01:27 AM	Just racial HD. Are you sure about this? Allthough they are templates, liches and vampires have d12 for current and future HDs. This seems to indicate that undead should always have d12, no matter what class they are taking. Or should these be seen as exceptions?
Stormwind 10-24-06, 01:37 AM	@Storm Wow, thanks. Answered a bunch of my questions and the articles are a nice find too. Is your shadow character still up in some form on the boards? I'm about to submit mine to the Uncon contest and I was wondering how the controlled shades worked, ally wise. IIRC they were treated like purchased allies in terms of affecting your rewards, right?Controlled Shades are racial allies and require a quest to obtain. They still affect your rewards and you are limited to maxCR=ECL-4 per ally that you bring to a fight and maxCA=ECL-2 for the total number that you bring to the fight. However there is no limit to how many you may have on you sheet as long as you quest for all of them. Also, in a multiplayer fight you may use your create spawn ability to gain allies for the duration of the fight, but the Nimbus restores them after the fight. EDIT: Ah-ha, found em. Odd. Your speed is listed as 40' fly, when the shadow in the SRD only has 30' fly. I don't see anything giving you a boost, is that an error?The number in the SRD is wrong. The speed listed in the SRD is actually listed as Fly 30 ft. (good) (8 squares). Since this is inconsistent both with itself and with the fly speed for the greater shadow, I checked with the monster manual and it should be Fly 40 ft. (good) (8 squares). Are you sure about this? Allthough they are templates, liches and vampires have d12 for current and future HDs. This seems to indicate that undead should always have d12, no matter what class they are taking. Or should these be seen as exceptions? No I'm not certain about this. I will check. Storm
Gonbow 10-24-06, 01:52 AM	@Storm Thanks for explaining that. As far the racial HD go... SS (Savage Species) says that a creatures HDs are always 1d12 after becoming Undead no matter what, but it isn't core and while the 'always 1d12' is followed in all noncore examples, I'm not sure if Cat and the Elders want the relatively low LA undead races like Ghoul and Shadow to work the same way. (A ghoul or shadow wizard/psion would get the most benefit out of this, but both are REALLY bad full-casters given the intelligence penalties and loss of caster levels so I don't think the balance is too much of a concern)
Abyssal Stalker 10-24-06, 02:13 AM	I don't think that it would be overpowering to let undead keep their d12. We have to remember that they are immediately destroyed when reching 0 hp, so that in itself makes them weaker than living things. The only reasonable casters seem to be the "superior" undead creatures like vampires and liches, and they have a whopping LA that causes their CL to be ridiculously low. At least these things don't give any reason to change how undead should be.
Zelck 10-24-06, 02:26 AM	IIRC, the d12 HD is to offset their lack of CON. So, Undead are balanced around having a d12 HD.
False_Keraptis 10-25-06, 07:50 PM	There's been some talk in the tavern about spellcasting prestige classes and what benefits they give. I figure it's time for the elders to stand up and be counted on this one. 1) A number of prestige classes, as written, advance spells per day and caster level, but add nothing to spells known. This is very bad for the sorceror. For instance, contrast the language in the eldritch knight description: From 2nd level on, when a new eldritch knight level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. with the language for the archmage: When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. (emphasis mine) I think this is just bad editing and language, but it's clear that as written, sorceror eldritch knights should not gain spells known. How should we play this? 2) Nowhere is it written that prestige sorcerors or bards can or cannot swap out one of their spells known at every other level. So, can they? 3) As written, it's pretty clear that prestige wizards gain no spells for their spellbooks for advancing in level, as wizards have no "spells known", but rather a spellbook, which only advances due to a wizard class feature. Like 1) above, I think this is probably just imprecise and bad language, and that RAI, they should gain these free spells. True, they don't suffer quite so much as sorcerors would above, but is quite costly for them. Plus should a prestige wizard level up and gain access to a new spell level after the first match of a 3FC, he will have no higher level spells to fill these slots for the remainder of the cycle, which is a little ridiculous. Personally, I think all of these issues are examples of imprecise writing that pits RAW squarely against RAI, and all should be house-ruled into oblivion. Full disclosure: one of my characters is a wizard that I'm considering advancing into loremaster. Thanks. Bump.
Maraxus 10-26-06, 09:12 AM	Whow, a lot of discussion here. I just wanted to share my thoughts on "attacking silently". That "DC -10: A battle" has nothing to o with it, that's an example DC for a stereotype battle with lot's of combatants moving around, exchanging blows. If you take this as a general rule and not an example of a specivic battle, it would also be the C to here two rogues after rolling initiative, sneaking through the darkness, trying to catch the other by suprise. However, hearing this "Battle" does not mean, you know where the combatants are, since the sound of the battle does not come from the combatants. Right, taking this RAW, in Battles, there is a general -10 DC sound coming from no specific source ... BATTLE MUSIC!! But then there is the table Invisible Creature Is . . . DC In combat or speaking 0 Moving at half speed Move Silently check result Moving at full speed Move Silently check result –4 Running or charging Move Silently check result –20 Some distance away +1 per 10 feet Behind an obstacle (door) +5 Behind an obstacle (stone wall) +15 This DC 0 "in combat" seams almost apropriate. However, only almost, because by the rules as we have them right now, combat means anything me in initiative - right including moving around silently, so you would get a listen check against this DC 0 every round, whatever the opponent does, because he is in combat. Furthermore, an attack in a suprise round would not make any sound, because it is not in combat. It's simple, if they wanted there to be a listen check to locate attacking creatures, they would have written "Attacking". What they want to say with "in combat" is still open to interpretation, of course. :( As far as I see RAW, there is no listen check at all, when someone attacks. However, I'd accept an official (conjoint) Elder ruling that it's a DC of 0, because of this vague "in combat part", or an oposing move silently check, because that's the skill about generally being silent. But please inform me, once you have decided ;)
Krytos 10-26-06, 02:47 PM	That table appears to be a set of modifiers to listen DCs not a set of DCs. Perhaps the +/- was mistakingly left off of the 0 of In combat.
MindWandererB 10-26-06, 03:03 PM	That table appears to be a set of modifiers to listen DCs not a set of DCs. Perhaps the +/- was mistakingly left off of the 0 of In combat. Not likely, because then it would say "Move Silently check result –0". That's a lot of text to leave off. I think they really intend for it to be impossible to intentionally "fight quieter." Although I'd house rule it differently, it really does look like a DC 0 Listen check is most appropriate for an attack of any kind. I agree that this nerfs stealth builds, possibly unfairly, but I can't see anything in the rules to suggest a different approach.
SauroGrenom 10-26-06, 04:08 PM	Then it appears we are in agreement. There is no skill for fighting silently. The DC0 listen check to hear an attack is reasonable and suggested by the section Maraxus notes. I suppose it would also be modified by distance in the case of a ranged attack. If the foe was hidden, and you rely only on sound to pinpoint, a DC20 would be required to locate the attacker. That's not at all unreasonable.
McJarvis 10-26-06, 04:14 PM	As a consolation: It's still nearly impossible to pinpoint a sniper. He can always take a standard action to attack, free action to 5' step, and move action to preserve the hide. Closest you can get(without hearing his MS check for the 5' step) is a 15ft square.
hogarth 10-26-06, 04:18 PM	As a consolation: It's still nearly impossible to pinpoint a sniper. He can always take a standard action to attack, free action to 5' step, and move action to preserve the hide. Closest you can get(without hearing his MS check for the 5' step) is a 15ft square. ...not to mention that it's fairly easy to manifest psionic powers without any auditory/visual components.
McJarvis 10-26-06, 04:22 PM	...not to mention that it's fairly easy to manifest psionic powers without any auditory/visual components. hum. That's kind of weird- I'd say manifesting energy ray is definately combat, so it should be a listen dc of 0, regardless of noise made with the actual manifesting.....
MindWandererB 10-26-06, 04:37 PM	Well, technically, powers that have no auditory display (or if the display is suppressed) are completely silent. So that would be yet another advantage for psionics. @Sauro: While I still don't agree that MS can't be used for actions other than moving from place to place (and I'd still use an MS check for drawing a weapon, escaping from a net, and a few other things), the best we have for an "attacking" DC is indeed a flat 0. The distance penalty should help, and it's still hard to pinpoint, so it should still be manageable.
TheMagister 10-26-06, 04:46 PM	I have an odd question: Is a psicrystal a "psionic creature"? I ask because I wish to take a psionic feat for Bob, Mssr. Hood's psicrystal, but I'm suddenly unsure of whether or not he qualifies for those feats. I found this information: Psionic feats are available only to characters and creatures with the ability to manifest powers. (In other words, they either have a power point reserve or have psi-like abilities.) Psionic feats can be taken only by psionic characters and creatures. A nonpsionic character could, in theory, take Psionic Fist, but without psionic energy to fuel it, the feat is worthless. A psicrystal is treated as a construct for the purposes of all effects that depend on its type. Psicrystal abilities are based on the owner's levels in psionic classes. The psionic subtype applies to creatures that can use psionic powers or abilities or that have the ability to manifest powers. Characters who have levels in any class that grants the use of psionics, or who have psi-like abilities as racial traits, gain the psionic subtype. That's about all the relevant information I could find. Thanks, TM
Zevox 10-26-06, 04:50 PM	I have an odd question: Is a psicrystal a "psionic creature"? I ask because I wish to take a psionic feat for Bob, Mssr. Hood's psicrystal, but I'm suddenly unsure of whether or not he qualifies for those feats. I found this information: That's about all the relevant information I could find. Thanks, TM No, they're not, as that information implies (Psicrystal don't have psi-like abilities or power points of thier own). They can however take the Wild Talent feat and become Psionic creatures that way. Zevox
TheMagister 10-26-06, 04:55 PM	No, they're not, as that information implies (Psicrystal don't have psi-like abilities or power points of thier own). They can however take the Wild Talent feat and become Psionic creatures that way. Zevox Explain the (Su) after so many of their abilities, then...
Zelck 10-26-06, 04:58 PM	And then can Psicrystals get a focus? Possible conflict with Psicrystal Containment!
McJarvis 10-26-06, 04:59 PM	PSIONIC CREATURES Any creature with psionic powers has the psionic subtype. A psionic creature can be born with the subtype or can gain the subtype during its life. A creature meeting any one of the following criteria has the psionic subtype: Creatures with a power point reserve, including characters who have levels in a character class that grants them a power point reserve or creatures who have the Wild Talent feat. Creatures with psi-like abilities, including characters who have racial psi-like abilities. Creatures that have spell-like abilities described as “psionics.” ... all psionic creatures have psionic powers, power points, or psi-like abilities Clearly, Psicrystals do not meet any of the three conditions that a creature is psionic. Supernatural abilities are not (Psi) or (Sp)
MindWandererB 10-26-06, 05:02 PM	Explain the (Su) after so many of their abilities, then... Plenty of nonpsionic creatures have supernatural abilities. Yes, a psicrystal with Wild Talent could have its own focus, which would be separate from the focus held by the master's Psicrystal Containment.
McJarvis 10-26-06, 05:04 PM	...which would be separate from the focus held by the master's Psicrystal Containment. I don't think so. Psicrystal containment gives you the ability to expend your psi-crystals focus as your own & the ability to do the concentration check so your psicrystal can attain a psionic focus. The wild talent feat would allow your psicrystal to attain a focus on its own, and then you could expend that focus with the Psicrystal containment feat. There is no language that says the Psicrystal Containment "focus" is a seperate focus(it is the psicrystal's own)- thus there is no "seperate focus". Not a bad combination of effects. Potential build could be made off it- if you had enough feats. PsiWarrior 3 Feats: 1: Psicrystal Affinity 1PW: Point Blank Shot 2PW: Psicrystal Containment 3: Psionic Shot Hellooo psionic shots every round. :-) Just slap a Wild Talent on your psicrystal & eventually a skill focus in concentration.... edit- or any psion using metapsionics could have great use of this. Slap wild talent on your psicrystal and the psicrystal containment feat gives you free metapsionics basically :-)
TheMagister 10-26-06, 05:07 PM	{laughing} Fair enough! I feel like all the smart people on the board are shaking their fingers at me! Still, this part: A nonpsionic character could, in theory, take Psionic Fist, but without psionic energy to fuel it, the feat is worthless. Would that make Bob able to take the feat, but not benefit from it?
McJarvis 10-26-06, 05:13 PM	{laughing} Fair enough! I feel like all the smart people on the board are shaking their fingers at me! Still, this part: Would that make Bob able to take the feat, but not benefit from it? Interesting...seems like a conflict. Psionic feats are available only to characters and creatures with the ability to manifest powers. (In other words, they either have a power point reserve or have psi-like abilities.) I suppose the meaning of "Available" is up to interpretation... It couldn't be a mis-print. We all know how faultless the Psionics rules are. ... <_< >_>
MindWandererB 10-26-06, 05:34 PM	I don't think so. Psicrystal containment gives you the ability to expend your psi-crystals focus as your own & the ability to do the concentration check so your psicrystal can attain a psionic focus. The wild talent feat would allow your psicrystal to attain a focus on its own, and then you could expend that focus with the Psicrystal containment feat. There is no language that says the Psicrystal Containment "focus" is a seperate focus(it is the psicrystal's own)- thus there is no "seperate focus".This amounts to a judgment call. Since the focus from Psicrystal Containment can be neither created nor used by the psicrystal, and the focus from Wild Talent can be neither created nor used by the PC, I really think it's meant to be treated as a different focus. (Then again, I'm also of the opinion that psicrystals were never meant to gain feats, but that's not the argument at hand.) I can see your argument, but I think it's way overpowered. I suppose the meaning of "Available" is up to interpretation...It's the same issue with all feats. Some sources suggest that you can take any feat without meeting the prereqs, but you just can't use it; others state that you can't even take it. I'm inclined to go with the former, because there are a few feats (particularly epic feats) that are clearly designed to be chosen by characters who don't ordinarily meet the prereqs.
McJarvis 10-26-06, 05:37 PM	Since the focus from Psicrystal Containment can be neither created nor used by the psicrystal this is only because psicrystals are not normally psionics creatures. Besides- I don't see where it says the psicrystal can not use the focus itself...there just isn't a reason for it to do so. I agree with you on them not getting feats, though. Who let that one slide by? :thumbsdow
Gonbow 10-26-06, 05:40 PM	Luni did, back in a very encompassing ruling that touched many aspects of Psycrystals and familiars. This was also back when Tatyana was originally active; as the first Kineticist in Living Gladius (Thus, the person that got Energy Missile nerfed. Your welcome) she's also the first character to have a psycrystal with wild talent. I've always assumed the two foci were seperate from each-other, since that is the less abusable of the two options. EDIT: Since I just got caught up on the stealth discussion... I'd like to offer my opinion that this ruling is a step backwards for the Core Colliseum. Every single situation where move silently is/would be used outside of the RARE occasion in a quest/campaign is in combat. You've just ruled that move silently has no use, except as dead ranks to qualify for some prestige classes/skill packages, given it does not affect your opponents DC to hear you in any situation now.
McJarvis 10-26-06, 05:44 PM	I've always assumed the two foci were seperate from each-other, since that is the less abusable of the two options. I'm just saying- the rules don't support that at all. An aside- As of late I've been finding it difficult to see why we allow some things(Deflect Arrows on things without Improved Unarmed Strike, feats on psicrystals) and not others(Thrallherds having appropriately leveled cohorts, energy missile sundering AT ALL, etc). It seems to go more with the emotions of the elders and less on anything substantial. =\ I understand that these are difficult decisions to make- but I think it is frustrating that some things are allowed because "the rules don't say its allowed, but it makes sense to us!" and some things are disallowed because "we feel this is too powerful or confusing, despite the rules supporting it" Arrow deflecting animals != making sense. -_- *grumble grumble grumble*
Zevox 10-26-06, 05:53 PM	I agree with you on them not getting feats, though. Who let that one slide by? :thumbsdow Luni (an Elder who vanished on us back in February or March) and Sauro (who pushed for it). Personally, I never much liked that ruling either - part of Sauro's logic in pushing for it ("Psicrystals are like much weaker Leadership cohorts but still have the same cost") always seemed weak to me (if you ask me, the Psicrystal Affinity feat is several feats in one - alertness, skill focus with a more limited selection of skills to choose from, plus a much weaker leadership with lower prerequisites). Basically it got passed due to the terrible wording of the psicrystal entries leading Sauro to be able to argue that Psicrystals didn't just have thier HD treated as the same as thier master's like familiars do, but actually gain HD with thier master (plus the other argument I mentioned above). Damn swiss cheese psionics rules. This was also back when Tatyana was originally active; as the first Kineticist in Living Gladius Tatyana was the first of those? I had thought Gaston was for some reason... *shrugs* Deflect Arrows on things without Improved Unarmed Strike Is, as strange as it seems, supported by the rules. In core rules Bebiliths and Hamatulas have improved grapple without it (and not as bonus feats either), and other non-core sources do outright state that natural weapons = improved unarmed strike for feat prerequisite purposes. The extrapolation is obvious, if resulting in some very nonsensical situations (mostly due to our unwillingness to enforce our own "keep custom feat selections in the boundaries of common sense" rule). Thrallherds having appropriately leveled cohorts Thats a balance issue with our house rules on allies. Has nothing to do with any elder rulings. Zevox
MindWandererB 10-26-06, 06:02 PM	An aside- As of late I've been finding it difficult to see why we allow some things(Deflect Arrows on things without Improved Unarmed Strike, feats on psicrystals) and not others(Thrallherds having appropriately leveled cohorts, energy missile sundering AT ALL, etc). It seems to go more with the emotions of the elders and less on anything substantial. =\ I understand that these are difficult decisions to make- but I think it is frustrating that some times are allowed because "the rules don't say its allowed, but it makes sense to us!" and some things are disallowed because "we feel this is too powerful or confusing, despite the rules supporting it"Agreed. And sometimes these rulings are overturned. Everything we do, as is always the case in D&D, is based on how we feel the rules work best. There are a large number of mistakes in the rule books--situations they never imagined, interpretations they didn't consider, and sometimes flat-out contradictions. We try to use the RAW in every case, unless one of four things happens: The RAW result in something that is clearly and obviously not what was intended. The result is so overwhelmingly powerful that to not nerf it, we don't have a fun game. A supplemental source (Rules of the Game, FAQ, Ask Wizards, rarely a published supplement) overturns it. The CoCo format interacts in such a way with the rule that it just doesn't make sense for us.When we run into #1, we do a Court Decision; when we run into #2 or #4, we do a house rule (and for #3, we do nothing). Subtle difference (and mechanically identical), but it's an important consideration. Sometimes we forget the source, and the line gets very blurry. For instance, with Energy Missile, a lot of us remember a source, somewhere that prevents someone from saying, "I target your weapon, your shield, your cloak, your belt, and you for good measure." None of have been able to recall where that came from, so what would be a #3 is a #2 right now. (Although if anyone ever finds it, it'll be a #3 again.) -=-=-=-=- Specific responses: I addressed Energy Missile above (that and, if allowed to sunder, it's totally broken--it's overpowered as it is). Thrallherd cohorts are nerfed due to the general ally rules. Natural weapons as IUS is based on 2 core creatures and a few non-core creatures doing the same thing, plus one non-core book that specifically permits it. Feats on psicrystals: that was one heck of a debate. Please don't bring it up again right now. We tried to go with RAW as best we could in this case. MS still has use, for all cases where moving is involved. You're right that a literal interpretation would say that "in combat" covers everything in the arena after initiative is rolled, but we're going with an RAI that the "in combat" DC of 0 means "attacking."
TheMagister 10-26-06, 06:10 PM	Boy, did I do the right thing in coming here with this... I have two possible uses for Bob's feat. 1) Psionic Body + Feat Leech = 10 hp that stack with Vigor for a 150 gp powerstone. Not bad. 2 and preferred) Wild Talent = one extra Psionic Focus to go along with Fell Shot, Psionic Shot, and (eventually) Manyshot. GOBS of damage. This has been Hood's path all along. I agree with McJarvis that the RAW supports the psicrystal's ownership of both foci, and Psicrystal Containment's allowance of the manifester's access to the psicrystal's foci. It is very cut and dried. Powerful? Oh, yeah. But VERY feat intensive. Reminds one of Spring Attack and Whirlwind Attack and Improved Trip, and on and on and on. TM
MindWandererB 10-26-06, 06:31 PM	Actually, no one is arguing that the psicrystal should contain 2 foci, and that the psion can access both of them. McJarvis argues that the psicrystal only has 1 focus even with both feats, which can be used for both purposes, and I'm arguing that it has two foci, one of which can be used by it and one by the manifester. However, if McJarvis's argument wins out, this is still a good path, because the psicrystal can spend a full-round action to focus itself, and then the manifester uses that focus for himself. I'm not sure how great Psionic Body would be. Although it does auto-scale.
Gonbow 10-26-06, 06:32 PM	New Tangent: How do the increased spellcaster levels of various Paragon Racial classes interact with Psionic classes? Increased manifester levels/power points where appropriate? EDIT: And for further clarification, I'm assuming class-specific, divine specific or arcane specific increases wouldn't interact with psionics either, yes? (Drow paragon, for instance, which specificies cleric or wizard)
MindWandererB 10-26-06, 06:41 PM	Although I'd probably house-rule otherwise in my own game, I don't think an increased caster level would apply to psionics, any more than an increased manifester level would apply to magic.
hogarth 10-26-06, 06:42 PM	New Tangent: How do the increased spellcaster levels of various Paragon Racial classes interact with Psionic classes? Increased manifester levels/power points where appropriate? EDIT: And for further clarification, I'm assuming class-specific, divine specific or arcane specific increases wouldn't interact with psionics either, yes? (Drow paragon, for instance, which specificies cleric or wizard) If it says "+1 caster level", then that means only spellcasters benefit, not manifesters, IMO. So no Human Paragon psions, for instance. Anything else would be a fairly substantial house rule.
SauroGrenom 10-26-06, 06:44 PM	Some of the racial paragon classes specify particular casting classes that experience a CL increase. Those classes are specific, and there is no increase in ML associated with them. For example the Elf Paragon recieves only bonus wizard CL if the character is wizard, not psion ML if the character is a psion.
SauroGrenom 10-26-06, 06:45 PM	If it says "+1 caster level", then that means only spellcasters benefit, not manifesters, IMO. So no Human Paragon psions, for instance. Anything else would be a fairly substantial house rule. On the grounds of the magic psionics transparency, it is reasonable to extend the unspecified CL increase over to ML.
MindWandererB 10-26-06, 06:57 PM	On the grounds of the magic psionics transparency, it is reasonable to extend the unspecified CL increase over to ML. Reasonable as a house rule, yes. Stated or implied by the rules, no. Selected quotes: "...spells, spell-like abilities, and magical items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics...." No mention of class features. "Spell resistance is effective against powers... [a]ll spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics... [t]he spell detect magic detects powers... [d]ead magic areas are also dead psionic areas." Again, no mention of class features. Nothing in the psionics-magic transparency section suggests that a caster level increase could be applied to a manifester level. Furthermore, when transparency applies, it is bidirectional. Could a Cerebremancer be a wizard/sorcerer? Of course not, but "transparency," applied this way, would permit it (since "+1 level of spellcasting class" = "+1 level of manifesting class").
SauroGrenom 10-26-06, 06:59 PM	Touche.
Gonbow 10-26-06, 07:07 PM	I am well aware that normally, spell caster increases do not equate to manifester increases. However, Unearthed Arcana was not written with Psionics in mind, as most core prestige classes/splat-book classes were, thus, the question. I'm sure if it was then some of the entries (humans, half-elves) would say +spellcaster or +manifester level; that is how I interpret them, RAI. However, my interpretation of RAI has nothing to do with how things go here... thus the question if in the instance of Unearthed Arcana Paragon Classes we could consider unnamed spellcaster level increases to be taken as manifester level increases as well.
SauroGrenom 10-26-06, 07:11 PM	*Sigh* I was here for most of the above mentioned rulings. Actually I was a participant in all of them except the energy missile ruling. Besides the energy missile ruling is based firmly in the rules as follows:SUNDER You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding. If you’re attempting to sunder a weapon or shield, follow the steps outlined here. (Attacking held objects other than weapons or shields is covered below.)Spell effects do not qualify for sundering attended objects. You are allowed to target other objects if you have an attack roll. Sundering a Carried or Worn Object: You don’t use an opposed attack roll to damage a carried or worn object. Instead, just make an attack roll against the object’s AC. A carried or worn object’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier + the Dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character. Attacking a carried or worn object provokes an attack of opportunity just as attacking a held object does. To attempt to snatch away an item worn by a defender rather than damage it, see Disarm. You can’t sunder armor worn by another character.The underlined section is considered in context to the above definition of a Sunder attempt to conclude that even these kinds of attacks must be executed with melee slashing or bludgeon weapons. The only example of items being damaged by spells is as follows:Items Surviving after a Saving Throw: Unless the descriptive text for the spell specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects). Refer to Table: Items Affected by Magical Attacks. Determine which four objects carried or worn by the creature are most likely to be affected and roll randomly among them. The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack deal. If an item is not carried or worn and is not magical, it does not get a saving throw. It simply is dealt the appropriate damage. The description of energy missile contains nothing that would allow you to damage the items attended by another character. Yes you can target objects, but objects carried or worn by another creature will "survive a magical attack". There is nothing in the energy missile description that allows you to damage the items carried or worn by another creature. I'm sure there are some spells that will specificially allow you to damage another character's equipment. I cannot think of any right now, but they must be in their some where. Besides, as MWB said, allowing spells to sunder is way overpowered. No fun. (BTW Psicrystals are creatures with their own creature entry in the SRD. Familiars are class features and function like a template added to creatures. So by default treat psicrystals as a creature unless the rules specify that it is treated differently as is the case with skills and hp and saves. I think I'm on firm footing in the rules with this one.)
MindWandererB 10-26-06, 07:12 PM	I am well aware that normally, spell caster increases do not equate to manifester increases. However, Unearthed Arcana was not written with Psionics in mind, as most core prestige classes/splat-book classes were, thus, the question. I'm sure if it was then some of the entries (humans, half-elves) would say +spellcaster or +manifester level; that is how I interpret them, RAI. However, my interpretation of RAI has nothing to do with how things go here... thus the question if in the instance of Unearthed Arcana Paragon Classes we could consider unnamed spellcaster level increases to be taken as manifester level increases as well.You could be right. Then again, there are a lot of books published after the XPH came out that don't use this language, and still say "spellcaster" only. Unfortunately, when the language that's used is unambigious, we go with what they say, even if we think it "should" be different. (BTW Psicrystals are creatures with their own creature entry in the SRD. Familiars are class features and function like a template added to creatures. So by default treat psicrystals as a creature unless the rules specify that it is treated differently as is the case with skills and hp and saves. I think I'm on firm footing in the rules with this one.)I think we can all agree on one thing: the way psicrystals are written up just plain sucks. I think you could go a dozen different ways and still be on "firm footing."
Gonbow 10-26-06, 07:22 PM	You could be right. Then again, there are a lot of books published after the XPH came out that don't use this language, and still say "spellcaster" only. Unfortunately, when the language that's used is unambigious, we go with what they say, even if we think it "should" be different. (Bold added by me) That's exactly my point. UA was written before the psionics handbook and thus does not address it any way shape or form, whereas more recent books make a nod to psionic content in their text, either by actually providing some, or a small blurb about conversion. My contention is, if UA was written after the psionics handbook, the wording would have been different. In the end, I'd just like to have a half-elf, human paragon psion entered in the uncon thing (A break from Gray Elf Psions, if I do say so myself), so it's not a terribly crushing blow if this doesn't go that way ^_^
SauroGrenom 10-26-06, 07:22 PM	I am well aware that normally, spell caster increases do not equate to manifester increases. However, Unearthed Arcana was not written with Psionics in mind, as most core prestige classes/splat-book classes were, thus, the question. I'm sure if it was then some of the entries (humans, half-elves) would say +spellcaster or +manifester level; that is how I interpret them, RAI. However, my interpretation of RAI has nothing to do with how things go here... thus the question if in the instance of Unearthed Arcana Paragon Classes we could consider unnamed spellcaster level increases to be taken as manifester level increases as well.If memory serves correctly, Unearthed Arcana came before the psionics handbook. It's hard for the rules in UA to make reference to a text not yet in existance. Meh...We are the Core Coliseum. Not the House Rule Coliseum. I'm right their with you. I'd like to have a elan paragon, and a psionic duergar paragon. But no dice. UA is already far from core and realy close to house rules. Going the extra step is probably enough to push us over the edge unless we work realy hard to stay pirched their.
TheMagister 10-26-06, 07:52 PM	Actually, no one is arguing that the psicrystal should contain 2 foci, and that the psion can access both of them. McJarvis argues that the psicrystal only has 1 focus even with both feats, which can be used for both purposes, and I'm arguing that it has two foci, one of which can be used by it and one by the manifester. However, if McJarvis's argument wins out, this is still a good path, because the psicrystal can spend a full-round action to focus itself, and then the manifester uses that focus for himself. I'm not sure how great Psionic Body would be. Although it does auto-scale. I misspoke myself. Let me explain. Bob's feats: Wild Talent, Psionic Meditation Hood is focused. Bob is focused. Free Action: Hood expends Bob's focus to make his next shot with his bow a Fell Shot. Hood expends his own focus to power Greater Psionic Shot. Hood uses a move action to refocus. Bob uses a move action to refocus. Hood uses a standard action to Manyshot. He expends his focus to make the other arrow in the Manyshot a Fell Shot. He expends Bob's new focus to use Greater Psionic Shot on the other arrow in the volley. He spends 2pp to add +2d6 to his deepcrystal bow, the property of which transfers to the ammunition. He shoots, he scores. Hood uses a swift action to manifest Hustle and uses his extra move action to refocus. Bob uses his other move action to refocus. Total: Touch attack volley = 2d8+6+8d6(GPS)+4d6(deepcrystal) Begin round: Hood focused, Bob focused, -5 pp. Not a bad deal. For more fun, add in Dissolving Weapon on the arrows involved.
MindWandererB 10-26-06, 08:17 PM	No. Of all the things you mentioned, only deepcrystal (and dissolving weapon) applies to the "next attack." The others all have to be paid for at the time you make the attack. So the best you could do would be two abilities, not four. Oh, and Bob is unlikely to be able to qualify for Psionic Meditation for a very long time (having few, if any, ranks of its own in Concentration), so it'll be a full-round action for it.
TheMagister 10-26-06, 09:21 PM	Ah..."as part of another action". So it only happens as you attack. Well, how about that? Hood expends focus to make the first arrow a fell shot. He manifests hustle as a swift action to regain his focus. He expends his focus to make the first arrow a Greater Psionic Shot. He expends Bob's focus to make the other arrow a Fell Shot. He spends 2pp to power deepcrystal. 2d8+6+4d6+4d6. How's that?
TheMagister 10-26-06, 09:23 PM	Oh, and Bob is unlikely to be able to qualify for Psionic Meditation for a very long time (having few, if any, ranks of its own in Concentration), so it'll be a full-round action for it. He has the same ranks as Hood does (in the Psicrystal Basics section, pg. 22). The real problem is fitting him with a +2 periapt of wisdom for the 13 Wisdom requirement.
Zevox 10-27-06, 12:04 AM	Ah..."as part of another action". So it only happens as you attack. Well, how about that? Hood expends focus to make the first arrow a fell shot. He manifests hustle as a swift action to regain his focus. He expends his focus to make the first arrow a Greater Psionic Shot. He expends Bob's focus to make the other arrow a Fell Shot. He spends 2pp to power deepcrystal. 2d8+6+4d6+4d6. How's that? Won't work - Hustle gives you an additional move action that round, not an immediate move action. You still have to finish your standard action before you can take the move action(s). Zevox
McJarvis 10-27-06, 02:18 AM	Thats a balance issue with our house rules on allies. Has nothing to do with any elder rulings. At some point someone had to decide "Hey- the thrallherd's class feature will count towards ally-expendibles and what, and the animal companion of a druid won't, and familiars won't, and...." etc, etc. Thus the problem was created. I don't see a point in nerfing a class feature to the point where someone would be retarded not to take leadership(one feat) instead.(from an optimization perspective) There hasn't even been discussion on any alternative ways to make the thrallherd's language work with our system...(perhaps default character templates that work as thrall cohorts? Requiring NPC classes only in Thralls? Etc, Etc.) At least other classes that suck can't be emulated by one freaking feat. =\ (and as a thrallherd- you're already burning 1 feat slot on a pretty much worthless feat anyway)
hogarth 10-27-06, 07:09 AM	At least other classes that suck can't be emulated by one freaking feat. =\ (and as a thrallherd- you're already burning 1 feat slot on a pretty much worthless feat anyway) Well, as Zevox has pointed out in the past, with Thrallherd you can dump your Charisma as much as you like and still come out with a maxed-out (by CoCo standards) cohort. And thralls don't count against your xp/gp rewards either. And you don't have to do a rewardless miniquest to get one (like you do with Leadership, I believe). So there's a little advantage there (but not 1 feat + 1 caster level's worth, IMO).
Zevox 10-27-06, 11:05 AM	At some point someone had to decide "Hey- the thrallherd's class feature will count towards ally-expendibles and what, and the animal companion of a druid won't, and familiars won't, and...." etc, etc. Thus the problem was created. I don't see a point in nerfing a class feature to the point where someone would be retarded not to take leadership(one feat) instead.(from an optimization perspective) Thrallherd allies count against your max allies, but impose no penalties. Thralls are already just as powerful as leadership cohorts (which are much more potent than any other class allies), and Thrallherd levels count double towards your leadership score, making charisma less of a must for them (you can probably have one with an 8 or 10 charisma and never have a problem getting a max-level cohort). The free psionic powers and improvements to Psionic Dominate they gain are far from insignificant. Essentially they give up just one ML for a cohort with much less need for charisma and several free powers - not at all unreasonable. Granted this is presuming they don't take the 10th level, which is indeed useless here, but thats hardly a major loss (particularly considering that having two leadership cohorts would definitely be overpowered). For Psions, taking Thrallherd is in most cases better than just the Leadership feat. Zevox
McJarvis 10-27-06, 11:27 AM	For Psions, taking Thrallherd is in most cases better than just the Leadership feat. Zevox Make that for telepaths. All other psions have the spend TWO feats to get into the class(expanded knowledge and inquisitor). Honestly, I think you'd have to ignore optimization to want to burn an extra feat and a caster level just to get a cohort without xp/gp penalties that could be gotten with leadership just as easy. And telepath's themselves more or less require class allies to be effective(so far as I can tell) As far as other abilities are concerned: Not having to pay extra to target other types of critters I can give ya, but the other two just plain suck. From 5th->6th level the thrallherd misses out on 10 pp because he doesn't gain a level of manifesting, and that gap grows at every level. You're probably most effecient on this count at 5th thrallherd level, so lets look: Psionic Charm/Dominate PP savings 1/day each: 10pp total PP lost because you didn't gain a manifester level: 16 (not counting high int scores) On top of that you didn't get the higher powerusage...so what we have is a prestige class whose main feature is nice powerful allies, but the leadership feat really is better. As far as gimping charisma: A 10th level character currently only needs a +2 to his leadership score to get a maxed ECL cohort. A 20th level character only needs a +5. Assuming a 10 cha, do you really think the thrallherd double dipping his levels matters for Cohorts? 1 little(for that level) +4 cha item and a few mods like joining a guild and whatnot and you're there. Nay- that's for followers. Now there the thrallherd is awsome. :-)
hogarth 10-27-06, 11:34 AM	Make that for telepaths. All other psions have the spend TWO feats to get into the class(expanded knowledge and inquisitor). [..] Not having to pay extra to target other types of critters I can give ya, but the other two just plain suck. From 5th->6th level the thrallherd misses out on 10 pp because he doesn't gain a level of manifesting, and that gap grows at every level. Don't forget: if you had taken 5 levels of psion instead of 5 levels of thrallherd, you would've gotten a bonus feat (and some extra psicrystal abilities, if that matters). So that's TWO feats it costs the Telepath and THREE that it costs the non-telepath psion. Also, don't forget that all of the Thrallherd's nifty Dominate/Charm abilities can be completely negated by 50 gp potions of Protection from Evil.
SauroGrenom 10-27-06, 11:42 AM	When I think of ThrallHerd, I think of the Meta Concert power. That power appears to be made for the ThrallHerd. You get a cohort to actually fight for you, and you get a horde of thralls who are lower level psion elans who are sources of PP and who give you access to dozens of lower level powers of various kinds. You can use the meta concert to gain access to discipline only powers and manifest them with astronomical DC and decent ML. The group of all your allies is just waiting for a fireball to wipe you all out, but I suppose that's what the thrall is intended to deal with. The ally limits are something I'm unwilling to change or make exceptions for. We've debated the allies up and down since they were first introduced. It's very very easy to underestimate the potency of allies even if they are several ECL below you. All those actions in combat... All those HP... Also the arena is realy intended for 1 on 1 combat. The horde of allies type build is a little out of place. We've tried to make room for it, but realy it's out of place. mounts and animal companions are one thing, but followers? Meh. It doesn't mesh well with the whole concept of arena combat (or party combat for that matter.) Followers fit more in army or group combat, and we are not the kind of place where that works well.
McJarvis 10-27-06, 11:47 AM	The horde of allies type build is a little out of place. We've tried to make room for it, but realy it's out of place. mounts and animal companions are one thing, but followers? Meh. It doesn't mesh well with the whole concept of arena combat (or party combat for that matter.) Followers fit more in army or group combat, and we are not the kind of place where that works well. I'm sorry- I miscommunicated. I just brought them up as a strength because they are at the table-top//rp (no penalty for killing them off either!) I don't want CoCo to allow all followers into the arena.... that would be absurd. :) I'm unclear on how guild rules work currently: can leadership/thrallherders donate followers/believers to guilds to help them boost up troop strength or anything? What I'm arguing against is that our current rules strip the thrallherd of the very class features that make it what it is. Not only can he only get a cohort of ECL-1, his eventual second cohort is more or less useless too.(unless his current cohort gets killed in battle..I guess then the second would be like second string...but it wouldn't, because both cohorts would be the same level under current rules) As it stands now, the Telepath is just what every other(except maybe the cerebremancer and slayer) psion prestige class is- an RP class only. In real table-top type games it is able to hold its own. And in the end- the slayer and cerebremancer are not "psion prestige classes"...they're combos
McJarvis 10-27-06, 11:53 AM	Is, as strange as it seems, supported by the rules. In core rules Bebiliths and Hamatulas have improved grapple without it (and not as bonus feats either), and other non-core sources do outright state that natural weapons = improved unarmed strike for feat prerequisite purposes. The extrapolation is obvious, if resulting in some very nonsensical situations (mostly due to our unwillingness to enforce our own "keep custom feat selections in the boundaries of common sense" rule). The Bebiliths and Hamatulas arguements are meaningless: Unless you want to argue that we should be able to excede skill rank caps because monsters in the monster manual do too. MM monster entries shouldn't be used as an example of what rules to use if they are unsupported by other language in the core. Non-core sources saying this is the case is all well and good- but I daresay disallowing it wouldn't have caused nearly the trouble that allowing it has for CoCo. And as far as "new-player-friendly", do you really think psicrystals/familiars getting feats is new-player-friendly at all? =\
McJarvis 10-27-06, 11:54 AM	Ahhh forget it. I was just venting frustrations..I didn't mean to debate like three or four issues that I don't care that much about at once....this discussion isn't really helping me & is wasting valuable elder discussion time. (even with the energy missile thing- I don't think there are other valid examples to support the arguments presented...DAMIT, no...must not argue...) What were we talking about? Psicrystals. Yeah. :)
McJarvis 10-27-06, 12:17 PM	One last thought- You know what would make me feel better about thrallherds? Ban leadership from CoCo. It's not like it is a standard feat anyway. All of my current arguments revolve around leadership being too good in comparison to thrallherd abilities- not that thrallherd is a weak class when compared to arcane classes like loremaster/red wizard/etc. And I think everyone already considers leadership the most powerful feat in Core anyway...maybe even too powerful for one feat alone, as shown by the prestige class that dedicates itself to an almost exact copy of the mechanic.
SauroGrenom 10-27-06, 12:31 PM	I'm researching the psicrystal psionic focus issue, and manyshot with psionic shot and deep crystal effects... McJarvis: We are unlikely to ban the leadership feat. It is something to consider briefly, but banning things is something we do very rarely. The idea has some merits, but we cannot just ban anything that's too powerfull. Doing that encourages mediocrity. We will ban things that are overpowered and where nothing else can counter it. Like the Gate spell or True MindSwitch. Leadership will not be banned.
McJarvis 10-27-06, 12:37 PM	We will ban things that are overpowered and where nothing else can counter it. I can see how Thrallherds getting a cohort at ECL-1 par rules would be overpowered and nothing could counter it. Point taken. :D ::shuts up for real this time as Krytos knocks on his door:: Time for DND hangout! cya! edit- or make leadership cohorts have a cap of ecl-3.
SauroGrenom 10-27-06, 01:12 PM	TM brings up a few very tough questions... 1: Can a psicrystal with Wild Talent regain psionic focus its self? 2: Does a psicrystal with Wild Talent and subject to Psicrystal Containment have one psionic focus or two? 3: Does a psicrystal have ranks in skills that allow it to qualify for feats? 4: How does deep crystal work in conjunction with Manyshot? 5: How does Psionic Shot or Fell Shot or Greater Psionic Shot work in conjunction with Manyshot? 1: All creatures with the psionic subtype and at least 1pp have the capacity to become psionicially focused. There appears to be no exception to this rule found at the top of the feats section of the psionics SRD. 2: To answer this one I must quote the entire description of the psicrystal containment feat:PSICRYSTAL CONTAINMENT [PSIONIC] Your psicrystal has advanced enough that it can hold a psionic focus that you store within it. Prerequisites: Psicrystal Affinity, manifester level 3rd. Benefit: You can spend a full-round action attempting to psionically focus your psicrystal. At any time when you need to expend your psionic focus, you can expend your psicrystal’s psionic focus instead, as long as the crystal is within 5 feet of you. Psionically focusing your psicrystal works just like focusing yourself. The psicrystal cannot focus itself - only the owner can spend the time to focus the crystal.All the details that follow must be held in context of the 1st description of the feat (with the underlined clause). The psionic focus that is being discussed by the details of the feat is the one your character stores within the crystal. All the other details are refering to a special kind of psionic focus, the one that is stored. This focus is different and seperate from the one that the psionic creature (psicrystal) can use to power its own feats. It is also different from the one that the psicrystal can use its own abilities to regain. The stored focus can only be regained by the character's efforts, not the psicrystal's abilities. 3: The section called "psicrystal basics" reads as follows:Skills: A psicrystal has the [/u]same skill ranks[/u] as its owner, except that it has a minimum of 4 ranks each in Spot, Listen, Move Silently, and Search. (Even if its owner has no ranks in these skills, a psicrystal has 4 ranks in each.) A psicrystal uses its own ability modifiers on skill checks.Thus the crystal does infact have skill ranks, and those ranks are drawn from the master's skills. As actual ranks, the psicrystal's skills can be used to qualify for feats. 4: Deep crystal allows you to spend 2pp and charge up a weapon with 2d6 of extra damage on a hit. This takes only a free action to accomplish. Thus it can be done at any time durring your turn. It can even be used to "charge up" every arrow in a full attack sequence (useing 2pp each arrow). The fact that the effect is transfered to the ammunition is something of note. In the past I assumed that the bow would retain the charge unless the arrow hits, but I've been recently told by Cat that the pp are lost into every arrow fired regardless of a hit or miss. That is currently the position being used untill he changes his mind, or is convinced otherwise. Note that the effect is in an arrow. So if the arrow misses, then the effect is lost. If the arrow hits, then the effect is applied. With the expenditure of 2pp each, you can apply it to every arrow in a volly or a full attack. 5: This one is perhaps the most difficult one to consider. There are lots of rules in various places to keep track of. I think it's worthwhile to consider the following various sources:PSIONIC SHOT [PSIONIC] You can charge your ranged attacks with additional damage potential. Prerequisite: Point Blank Shot. Benefit: To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus. Your ranged attack deals +2d6 points of damage. You must decide whether or not to use this feat prior to making an attack. If your attack misses, you still expend your psionic focus.MANYSHOT [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6 Benefit: As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a –4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage normally (but see Special). For every five points of base attack bonus you have above +6, you may add one additional arrow to this attack, to a maximum of four arrows at a base attack bonus of +16. However, each arrow after the second adds a cumulative –2 penalty on the attack roll (for a total penalty of –6 for three arrows and –8 for four). Damage reduction and other resistances apply separately against each arrow fired. Special: Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you apply precision-based damage only once. If you score a critical hit, only the first arrow fired deals critical damage; all others deal regular damage. A fighter may select Manyshot as one of his fighter bonus feats. A 6th-level ranger who has chosen the archery combat style is treated as having Manyshot even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.Is it possible to use the Shot on the Run feat in conjunction with the Manyshot feat? Some people I know insist that you must use the attack action with Shot on the Run, and they further claim that Manyshot is a standard action and not the attack action. But there isn’t any such thing as an attack action, is there? The text on actions in Chapter 8 of the Player’s Handbook (page 138) describes many kinds of actions (standard actions, move actions, fullround actions, and free actions); it even describes things that are not actions and mentions restricted activity. Nowhere, however, do the rules describe attack actions. So, what’s the correct answer? No, you cannot use Shot on the Run and Manyshot together. It is true that no category of actions is called “attack actions” in the D&D game, but there is an action called attack—it’s the first action described under Standard Actions on page 139 in the Player’s Handbook. It might seem that the folks who say no Manyshot with Shot On the Run are slicing the baloney a little thin, but the letter of the rules is on their side, and so is the intent behind the letter of the rules. The Manyshot feat description could say you fire multiple arrows with the attack action, but it doesn’t. Manyshot is a standard action, not a variant on the attack action (see the feat description on page 97 in the Player’s Handbook). Likewise, the Shot on the Run feat could allow you to make any kind of ranged attack while moving, but it doesn’t. When using Shot on the Run, you must use the attack action with a ranged weapon (see the feat description on page 100 in the Player’s Handbook). This rules out using spells, most magic items, or special standard actions such as the Manyshot feat when making a Shot on the Run. That’s because casting a spell would require the cast a spell action (described on page 140 of the Player’s Handbook), using any magic item except for some use-activated items would require the activate magic item action (Player’s Handbook, page 142), and, as already noted here, using the Manyshot feat is a standard action. Most magic weapons are use activated and don’t require any action to activate at all (see page 213 in the DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide), so you can use these weapons along with the attack action. For example, you could use a +1 longbow or +1 arrow (or both) with the attack action, and thus you also could use these items with Shot on the Run.What the sage is telling us here is that the manyshot feat does not use an attack. Apparently there is a slim distinction between an attack and what the manyshot feat does. An attack is a specific standard action (or full action), while manyshot is a different kind of standard action. The attack roll of manshot is not technicially an "attack" for the purpose of shot on the run. This difference is important with respect to other feats as well. Feats that apply their effect to "attacks" cannot apply their effects to the manyshot action since it is not technicially an attack. This precludes psionic shot from modifying damage on a manyshot action. I'm sorry TM, but I think the details show that the combination of feats and effects you have proposed will not work in precisely the way you had hoped. It may be a comfort to you that many of your proposed feats will work in conjunction on a typical full attack or typical standard attack. For example fell shot and greater psionic shot and deep crystal and even dissolving weapon on the arrow can all be applied to a single standard action. The damage potential could be devastating, and could be used in conjunction with shot on the run.
Zevox 10-27-06, 01:52 PM	And as far as "new-player-friendly", do you really think psicrystals/familiars getting feats is new-player-friendly at all? =\ Only Psicrystals get that (not familiars - another piece of reasoning behind that argument was that psicrystals were merely similar to familiars, not to be treated the same as them :rolleyes: ), and as I said I disagree with that one anyway. If that ruling were overturned I'd be quite happy. Ban leadership from CoCo. It's not like it is a standard feat anyway. Its in the SRD, PHB, and DMG, so yes, its a standard feat and won't be banned. I daresay disallowing it [natural weapons = IUS] wouldn't have caused nearly the trouble that allowing it has for CoCo. Quite true, and personally I'd not be against doing so. The problem is that we do have those examples and rules saying that such is why those examples exist backing it up, so its unlikely to get removed since it supported by those rules. Make that for telepaths. All other psions have the spend TWO feats to get into the class(expanded knowledge and inquisitor). Honestly, I think you'd have to ignore optimization to want to burn an extra feat and a caster level just to get a cohort without xp/gp penalties that could be gotten with leadership just as easy. True, it is only really for Telepaths, but I certainly wouldn't say its just as esy to get Leadership. As I said, you need high charisma for that, which isn't much good for anything else for anyone but Sorcerers, Paladin, Blackguards, Wilders, or Clerics with Divine Might. That +4 charisma item you're calling "little" is about 1/4 of your wealth at level 10 if you can't craft it (which Psions can't), and you won't be able to subsist on items alone at higher levels (theres no +10 charisma items out there). Joining a Guild only works with followers too - the only modifiers that help with cohort leadership are special power (none of the requirements for which are very friendly to psions) and Great Reknown (which isn't a guaranteed tag at any time unless you're Cat or Pittbull). Being able to have a full strength leadership-style cohort with an 8 charisma at any level is very nice, since it means your other stats are higher for it. And telepath's themselves more or less require class allies to be effective(so far as I can tell) Not at all. Really the only reason we don't see many I'd say is because Kineticists are so obviously a powerful choice as Psions go. Just look at the powers they get. Brain Lock hurts with either allies of any sort or Solicit Psicrystal; Charm could auto-win a fight if you win the opposed charisma check; Suggestion has any number of uses ("Hey, aren't you hot after all this fighting? I bet a dip in that pool over would be nice." - foe jumps in lava moat in temple map, or do that in the forest then brain lock them when they jump the river and let'em drown); Crisis of Breath is a level 3 save-or-die; Hostile Empathic Transfer heals you and hurts your foe; and Dominate, Schism, and Crisis of Life are all good for obvious reasons too. Hell, they probably have better options available to them than Seers, Shapers, or Nomads get (well, maybe not Nomads - flight, teleportation, and baleful teleport are nice). They don't need class allies any more than any other Psion. Zevox
hogarth 10-27-06, 01:58 PM	Charm could auto-win a fight if you win the opposed charisma check[.] Caterane clarified that Charm/Suggestion can't be used to auto-win by forcing the opponent to surrender (or leave the arena), if that's what you're thinking. Anyways, I think the best solution (given that some people like to have allies) would be to have characters with thralls or cohorts use the "team fight" option and fight in a higher league. It seems like Cat isn't 100% opposed to the idea of team fights at this point.
McJarvis 10-27-06, 02:01 PM	That +4 charisma item you're calling "little" is about 1/4 of your wealth at level 10 if you can't craft it (which Psions can't), and you won't be able to subsist on items alone at higher levels (theres no +10 charisma items out there). You missed my point. I said at level _20_ you would only need a +4 charisma item and then could get the extra +3 through various mods(+2 for great renown alone?) a 20th level character isn't going to be hard pressed for that +4 char item, or a +6 one for that matter.. a tenth level character only needs a +2 to his leadership score. I hardly think this would be terribly difficult(+2 charisma item 4,000 gp & get generosity- OR just have great renown- there's a +2 right there) As far as my comments regarding telepaths needing allies: At ECL 3(my primary concern, since I don't want to pay creds for levels that I could just earn) Telepaths don't have a "clear cut" way to win. Most of the suggestions you made involve higher level powers they don't have access to. Brain Lock+ally is the best strategy I could come up with. :P
SauroGrenom 10-27-06, 02:09 PM	Edited in my research.
McJarvis 10-27-06, 02:12 PM	2: To answer this one I must quote the entire description of the psicrystal containment feat:All the details that follow must be held in context of the 1st description of the feat (with the underlined clause). The psionic focus that is being discussed by the details of the feat is the one your character stores within the crystal. All the other details are refering to a special kind of psionic focus, the one that is stored. This focus is different and seperate from the one that the psionic creature (psicrystal) can use to power its own feats. It is also different from the one that the psicrystal can use its own abilities to regain. The stored focus can only be regained by the character's efforts, not the psicrystal's abilities. Lets say my friend has a box. I get a feat that lets me store my wallet in that box. The box has room for 1 wallet. The feat doesn't magically make the box able to carry two wallets- it just lets me put a wallet in the box for whatever reason. The fact that the feat says you get to put a focus on the crystal doesn't imply that you are giving it some sort of "special" focus. It just is what it is- as written, there is no room in D&D for two psionic focuses on a creature. "Your psicrystal has advanced enough that it can hold a psionic focus that you store within it." Psicrystals don't start off as psionic creatures- so this statement still makes sense given what I said. The feat makes it so the psicyrstal is capable of holding psionic energy, then gives you the power to put it there. The crystal still isn't a psionic creature, and thus still can't expend or attain the focus itself. But if it were a psionic creature(which is only an option because we allow psicrystals to take feats), it could. There is no magical(or psionical?) second focus.
Zevox 10-27-06, 02:17 PM	Caterane clarified that Charm/Suggestion can't be used to auto-win by forcing the opponent to surrender (or leave the arena), if that's what you're thinking. Really? It used to be able to back when I joined, and I don't recall it being removed. Huh. Oh well, off to edit Charm Person off of Mithos then. Anyways, I think the best solution (given that some people like to have allies) would be to have characters with thralls or cohorts use the "team fight" option and fight in a higher league. It seems like Cat isn't 100% opposed to the idea of team fights at this point. *sigh* I've said it before, I'll say it again: I really don't like that idea. See the old arguments for why. You missed my point. I said at level _20_ you would only need a +4 charisma item and then could get the extra +3 through various mods(+2 for great renown alone?) At level 20 it would be easy to get that item, true. How do you plan on having Great Reknown consistantly though? Thats as much determined by chance as anything else, unless you're simply a crazy powerful character (hence my mention of Cat/Pittbull's characters). Special Power requires levels in classes a Psion won't want or an LA+4 (also not desirable for a Psion). What does that leave you with? Giving up 5% of your winnings every fight for +1? Not enough even with a +6 item on its own. And theres flatly nothing else that helps with cohorts. Plus that level is frozen now anyway, and you do need either charisma-boosting items, great reknown, or a high charisma at the ones we do have to get your cohort at max level in the current levels, so the point is moot. At ECL 3(my primary concern, since I don't want to pay creds for levels that I could just earn) Telepaths don't have a "clear cut" way to win. Most of the suggestions you made involve higher level powers they don't have access to. Brain Lock+ally is the best strategy I could come up with. :P Neither do Nomads, yet I got through that level in two fights and a miniquest with Istima using Energy Ray, Energy Push, and a horse who really only did much fighting in one of the fights ;) . They still have access to all typical Psion powers after all, which is hardly insignificant. My points were just about the powers specific to them and what could be done with them, they're hardly all the tricks Telepaths can get. Zevox
McJarvis 10-27-06, 02:24 PM	Regarding leadership(one more time) I was assuming a 10 cha, but Krytos just alerted me to the fact that it isn't hard to take a 12 on cha anyway to start with. 4 points out of 36 won't kill a build at all.("and what are you going to boost? strength? you're a frickin psion!"~Krytos) Assuming a 12 cha: 6th(start of leadership)->9th level you need no leadership adjustment. 10th-> need a +1 more. That 4,000gp +2 cha item is tempting, and wholy worth it. edit- I didn't clarify this properly when I posted it above. I think the leadership vs Thrallherd stuff wouldn't be an issue if ya just changed the max cohort on leadership to ecl-3.
Zevox 10-27-06, 02:28 PM	I was assuming a 10 cha, but Krytos just alerted me to the fact that it isn't hard to take a 12 on cha anyway to start with. 4 points out of 36 won't kill a build at all.("and what are you going to boost? strength? you're a frickin psion!"~Krytos) I was assuming a charisma of 8 myself, though it did come out as 10 when replying to yours. If you're a Psion, your most desired stats are intellgience (duh), then dexterity and constitution, then wisdom, then charisma and strength. 4 points away from dex or con will hurt (*imagines Istima with 4 of his con points in charisma and shudders*), and Thrallherds can evade that, and save that 4,000 gp from the cloak (or 5% winnings from generosity). edit- I didn't clarify this properly when I posted it above. I think the leadership vs Thrallherd stuff wouldn't be an issue if ya just changed the max cohort on leadership to ecl-3. Except that this would be a total house rule that we don't really need... Zevox
SauroGrenom 10-27-06, 02:33 PM	Lets say my friend has a box. I get a feat that lets me store my wallet in that box. The box has room for 1 wallet. The feat doesn't magically make the box able to carry two wallets- it just lets me put a wallet in the box for whatever reason. The fact that the feat says you get to put a focus on the crystal doesn't imply that you are giving it some sort of "special" focus. It just is what it is- as written, there is no room in D&D for two psionic focuses on a creature. "Your psicrystal has advanced enough that it can hold a psionic focus that you store within it." Psicrystals don't start off as psionic creatures- so this statement still makes sense given what I said. The feat makes it so the psicyrstal is capable of holding psionic energy, then gives you the power to put it there. The crystal still isn't a psionic creature, and thus still can't expend or attain the focus itself. But if it were a psionic creature(which is only an option because we allow psicrystals to take feats), it could. There is no magical(or psionical?) second focus.This argument is not based in the rules. It is based in your sense of what should be the reality of a totally imaginary world that exists in a game. The conception that your sense of "reality" should apply to our mutual game is hubris indeed. Our mutual game can only work if we play by the rules and if the rules are static, this is not calvin ball. My statements are based in the rules. Effectively the feat puts a secret compartment on the side box so that it can hold an extra wallet, and you have the only key. That's the best I can do to make the rules mesh with your analogy.
McJarvis 10-27-06, 02:36 PM	This argument is not based in the rules. It is based in your sense of what should be the reality of a totally imaginary world that exists in a game. The conception that your sense of "reality" should apply to our mutual game is hubris indeed. Our mutual game can only work if we play by the rules and if the rules are static, this is not calvin ball. My statements are based in the rules. Effectively the feat puts a secret compartment on the side box so that it can hold an extra wallet, and you have the only key. That's the best I can do to make the rules mesh with your analogy. Your conception of "two psionic foci" is based on your own perception of reality as well. The rules don't say "This focus is different than the psicyrstal's own focus", they say "The Psicyrstal can't use this focus" The rules in NO way support two foci. My example was to show that "The box" is the rules, and you can't magically put a secret compartment in them. They are the way they are- and you can't change them through sheer force of will. They do, however, support a single focus. Through multiple class features you can gain access to it in several different ways. That's just the rules, plain and simple.
MindWandererB 10-27-06, 02:40 PM	1: All creatures with the psionic subtype and at least 1pp have the capacity to become psionicially focused. There appears to be no exception to this rule found at the top of the feats section of the psionics SRD.No question. 2: To answer this one I must quote the entire description of the psicrystal containment feat:All the details that follow must be held in context of the 1st description of the feat (with the underlined clause). The psionic focus that is being discussed by the details of the feat is the one your character stores within the crystal. All the other details are refering to a special kind of psionic focus, the one that is stored. This focus is different and seperate from the one that the psionic creature (psicrystal) can use to power its own feats. It is also different from the one that the psicrystal can use its own abilities to regain. The stored focus can only be regained by the character's efforts, not the psicrystal's abilities.Semantics, but I happen to agree with you. 3: The section called "psicrystal basics" reads as follows:Thus the crystal does infact have skill ranks, and those ranks are drawn from the master's skills. As actual ranks, the psicrystal's skills can be used to qualify for feats.Okay. I withdraw my earlier opinion. 4: Deep crystal allows you to spend 2pp and charge up a weapon with 2d6 of extra damage on a hit. This takes only a free action to accomplish. Thus it can be done at any time durring your turn. It can even be used to "charge up" every arrow in a full attack sequence (useing 2pp each arrow). The fact that the effect is transfered to the ammunition is something of note. In the past I assumed that the bow would retain the charge unless the arrow hits, but I've been recently told by Cat that the pp are lost into every arrow fired regardless of a hit or miss. That is currently the position being used untill he changes his mind, or is convinced otherwise. Note that the effect is in an arrow. So if the arrow misses, then the effect is lost. If the arrow hits, then the effect is applied. With the expenditure of 2pp each, you can apply it to every arrow in a volly or a full attack.Cat's statement is based on this: "All missile weapons lose this effect if they miss. However, they may be recovered and charged again." However, Manyshot is a single, simultaneous action. There's no way to recharge the bow "in between" shots. (The logic behind Manyshot is that you're placing multiple arrows on the string at once, and firing them all with one pull.) 5: This one is perhaps the most difficult one to consider. There are lots of rules in various places to keep track of. I think it's worthwhile to consider the following various sources:Is it possible to use the Shot on the Run feat in conjunction with the Manyshot feat? Some people I know insist that you must use the attack action with Shot on the Run, and they further claim that Manyshot is a standard action and not the attack action. But there isn’t any such thing as an attack action, is there? The text on actions in Chapter 8 of the Player’s Handbook (page 138) describes many kinds of actions (standard actions, move actions, fullround actions, and free actions); it even describes things that are not actions and mentions restricted activity. Nowhere, however, do the rules describe attack actions. So, what’s the correct answer? No, you cannot use Shot on the Run and Manyshot together. It is true that no category of actions is called “attack actions” in the D&D game, but there is an action called attack—it’s the first action described under Standard Actions on page 139 in the Player’s Handbook. It might seem that the folks who say no Manyshot with Shot On the Run are slicing the baloney a little thin, but the letter of the rules is on their side, and so is the intent behind the letter of the rules. The Manyshot feat description could say you fire multiple arrows with the attack action, but it doesn’t. Manyshot is a standard action, not a variant on the attack action (see the feat description on page 97 in the Player’s Handbook). Likewise, the Shot on the Run feat could allow you to make any kind of ranged attack while moving, but it doesn’t. When using Shot on the Run, you must use the attack action with a ranged weapon (see the feat description on page 100 in the Player’s Handbook). This rules out using spells, most magic items, or special standard actions such as the Manyshot feat when making a Shot on the Run. That’s because casting a spell would require the cast a spell action (described on page 140 of the Player’s Handbook), using any magic item except for some use-activated items would require the activate magic item action (Player’s Handbook, page 142), and, as already noted here, using the Manyshot feat is a standard action. Most magic weapons are use activated and don’t require any action to activate at all (see page 213 in the DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide), so you can use these weapons along with the attack action. For example, you could use a +1 longbow or +1 arrow (or both) with the attack action, and thus you also could use these items with Shot on the Run.What the sage is telling us here is that the manyshot feat does not use an attack. Apparently there is a slim distinction between an attack and what the manyshot feat does. An attack is a specific standard action (or full action), while manyshot is a different kind of standard action. The attack roll of manshot is not technicially an "attack" for the purpose of shot on the run. This difference is important with respect to other feats as well. Feats that apply their effect to "attacks" cannot apply their effects to the manyshot action since it is not technicially an attack. This precludes psionic shot from modifying damage on a manyshot action.I disagree here. Manyshot is indeed an attack (it breaks Invisibility, for instance). But it doesn't use an attack action, it uses a standard action. We have other rules clarifications for using Psionic Shot with other standard actions which are attacks (like ray powers). No reason why Manyshot should be different.
McJarvis 10-27-06, 02:42 PM	Except that this would be a total house rule that we don't really need... Welcome to my perception of much of CoCo. -_- Leadership is overpowered to the point that one prestige class more or less equals the power of leadership itself because of the rules inherient to CoCo. It's necessary. edit- And to whoever said it- Leadership is NOT a "standard" feat(though I know it has that "general" tag behind it), that's why it's in the DMG. It was meant for a DM to make a call on- If it was meant for every character ever to be able to use than DnD games would be 6 people sitting around a table with small cities following them around.
SauroGrenom 10-27-06, 03:10 PM	That's a retarded argument. Your conception of "two psionic foci" is based on your own perception of reality as well. The rules don't say "This focus is different than the psicyrstal's own focus", they say "The Psicyrstal can't use this focus" The rules in NO way support two foci. My example was to show that "The box" is the rules, and you can't magically put a secret compartment in them. They are the way they are- and you can't change them through sheer force of will. They do, however, support a single focus. Through multiple class features you can gain access to it in several different ways. That's just the rules, plain and simple. Alright you need me to spell it our for you in excrutiating detail, then you shall have it.... As I quoted above the psicrystal containment feat has the following effect:"Your psicrystal has advanced enough that it can hold a psionic focus that you store within it." That means there is a special new kind of focus placed in your psicrystal. This special new kind of unique psionic focus has none of the typical requirements for a creature to have a psionic focus. It does not require that the psicrystal be a psionic creature. It does not require that the psicrystal have pp or psi-like abilities. Infact it is actually your character's psionic focus, not the crystal's focus at all. It's just attached to the psicrystal and stored their for your later use by you. The feat allows your character to store a psionic focus in your psicrystal. The feat does not allow your crystal to become psionicially focused. Clearly the crystal cannot regain your psionic focus. Read what the feat actually says and not what you want it to say. This is my decision. I'm sorry you think it's a retarded argument. But game mechanics are generally assumed to not interact unless the rules specify how they interact. We do not just assume that a sorcerer can switch spells known, we know it is allowed to do this because it is detailed in the rules. Simularly we do not and cannot assume that the psionic focus that the psicrystal containment feat allows you to place in a crystal is the same as the one that a psionic creature psicrystal would have for its own use. Infact the language of the feat suggests they are different, and that one belongs to the "owner" of the psicrystal while the other is the actual psionic focus of the psicrystal as a psionic creature.
Zevox 10-27-06, 03:27 PM	edit- And to whoever said it- Leadership is NOT a "standard" feat(though I know it has that "general" tag behind it), that's why it's in the DMG. It was meant for a DM to make a call on- If it was meant for every character ever to be able to use than DnD games would be 6 people sitting around a table with small cities following them around. It is a standard feat - the details on it are in the DMG, but it itself is found in the PHB too. No, its not intended for every character to take (no feat is), only for those who wish to be leaders and have followers to reflect such (ergo its name, leadership, and effect), but it is as standard as any other PHB feat. Zevox
McJarvis 10-28-06, 03:06 AM	That means there is a special new kind of focus placed in your psicrystal. This is entirely your opinion, not what it says. Infact it is actually your character's psionic focus, not the crystal's focus at all You can spend a full-round action attempting to psionically focus your psicrystal Clearly the feat says that you psionically focus your psicrystal and NOT "You now put your own focus in the psicrystal" The feat does not allow your crystal to become psionicially focused. You can spend a full-round action attempting to psionically focus your psicrystal Read what the feat actually says and not what you want it to say. Do it yourself. See? Being rude and assuming that you're just dumb and ignoring/not-reading the rules is easy for me too. I don't want it to say anything- I have no builds that would benefit from there only being one focus. Sigh... edit- Don't get me wrong- I understand your arguement...in fact, I read it in detail the first time you wrote it. I'm saying the flavor text(or plain-english saying) of a feat is not given any specific power(that I can find anyway) by the rules for a reason. Certain feats(like psionic dodge-> Dodge bonus would apply to melee attacks only) wouldn't make sense if you took the flavor text literally- and it isn't meant to change the nature of the feat.
McJarvis 10-28-06, 03:09 AM	It is a standard feat - the details on it are in the DMG, but it itself is found in the PHB too. No, its not intended for every character to take (no feat is), only for those who wish to be leaders and have followers to reflect such (ergo its name, leadership, and effect), but it is as standard as any other PHB feat. Zevox hum...now how did I miss that it was in the phb? =\ I'll just blame this on 3.0->3.5 switch. If that doesn't work, I'll just blame it on the 2.0-> 3.0 switch ;)
SauroGrenom 10-28-06, 07:25 PM	Clearly the feat says that you psionically focus your psicrystal and NOT "You now put your own focus in the psicrystal"I do not see how the text of the feat says you create a psionic focus belonging to your psicrystal. Infact the text is very specific and says that, "Your psicrystal has advanced enough that it can hold a psionic focus that you store within it." This focus belongs to your character not the crystal. The psicrystal simply holds it. That's it. That's what the rules say. Period..... Many periods. Your character makes a special psionic focus that the crystal holds. All other details in the rest of the description are held in context of the basic description at the top. You cannot ignore this statement, it comes first. This does infact say that you can put your own focus in the crystal. Being rude and assuming that you're just dumb and ignoring/not-reading the rules is easy for me too. I don't want it to say anything- I have no builds that would benefit from there only being one focus.I have atleast one build that would benefit from having a single focus that the crystal could refocus alone. Even so, I read the rules and the idea that the crystal can refocus and that focus can be used by the character is not something I can justify. Don't get me wrong- I understand your arguement...in fact, I read it in detail the first time you wrote it. I'm saying the flavor text(or plain-english saying) of a feat is not given any specific power(that I can find anyway) by the rules for a reason. Certain feats(like psionic dodge-> Dodge bonus would apply to melee attacks only) wouldn't make sense if you took the flavor text literally- and it isn't meant to change the nature of the feat.Flavor text? I don't think we have flavor text here. We have a basic description of what the feat is capable of, then details of what requirements are needed to acquire the feat, and details of what kind of actions or effects the feat has. All the details come in light of the primary description of the feat. The primary description of the feat tells us that the character can have his psicrystal hold a psionic focus. This is not, as you suggest, a statement about the crystal being focused itself as a non-psionic creature by default. We cannot ignore this. If you read the eratta for most of the core books you see that they all have statements at the beginning about choosing primary rules sources over secondary sources. I am now and have always used the 1st description of feats magic items or class abilities as the primary source. If details in another location of the rules contradict or appear to contradict the primary source, it is held in context of the primary source and evaluated as such. In this case I (with MWB's agreement) consider the statement that, "Your psicrystal has advanced enough that it can hold a psionic focus that you store within it." to be the primary source.
McJarvis 10-28-06, 07:35 PM	I think I must be confused then: Feat Name[Type of Feat] Description of what the feat does or represents in plain language. Prereq: *snipped* Benefit: What the feat enables the character to do. *rest snipped* So the initial text summarizes the benefits of the feat in plain(ie- non-technical) language. The Benefit then says what the technical benefits are. I've never encountered anyone who said the plain-language description actually supercedes the benefits description in any way. Am I just totally off base here? o_O Can you quote some rules of the game article or something that could clear this up for me? I don't see anything in the description of feats that suggests the plain-language description has in-game consequences. three examples of feats that don't make sense to me if what you're saying is true: Desc: You are adapt at manipulating small, delicate objects So you can't use those bonuses to Open Locks and Disable device against large traps or larger locks? Desc: "You are good with Animals" Benefit: +2 to handle animal and ride checks So the bonus to ride checks doesn't work with magical beasts? Actually, there are alot of +2 (skill)/+2 (skill) feats where your logic doesn't seem to work, so a different example... Desc: You adapt at dodging blows I'm fairly certain "blows" is a term not used for ranged shots. (though this is a weak one, I'll admit)- but this argument works for psionic dodge as well. In fact, I don't think there are any feats that are limited by the begining description. Even Wild Talent could be taken by a psionic-creature, so far as the rules are concerned.(though it wouldn't make sense- but rules are not about making sense) Otherwise there would be a pre-req that restricts it to non-psionic creatures, with an addendum that says if you are disqualified for the feat's prereqs after taking the feat its benefits are not removed. You might be able to make a case with Spell Focus->Greater Spell focus, but in that specific case the prereq didn't even matter because which order you take them in has no in-game effect. If nothing else, the "plain-word" descriptive text is very comparible to the spell descriptions in tables in the spells section of the PhB. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees. Obviously detailed descriptions of spells/effects take precedence over short-descriptions of these game mechanics.(though this is a clunky argument again, but only because primary vs secondary material is only an issue for table vs text or book vs book arguments, not the "plain-language" descriptions that were given no power in the first place vs benefit descriptions which tell you exactly what the in-game effects of the feat are.)
SauroGrenom 10-28-06, 08:29 PM	You are not changing my mind... I already have the agreement of 1 other elder.... Find three that dissagree then your interpretation will win. Untill then I consider the discussion complete. We are not getting anywhere. You disagree with with my reasoning and position, and I have failed multiple times to get your agreement. I don't realy need your agreement, but I've tried to get it since I think that's always a better way to go than just making a ruling in spite of desention. However I feel we are both wasting time on this. I won't continue with the argument.
McJarvis 10-28-06, 08:33 PM	Just when I thought I had finally found the core reason why we were disagreeing on this. If any other elders want to pipe in and explain to me why feat plain-language descriptions("Flavor Text") supercede feat benefit descriptions("Game Mechanics"), feel free to either post or PM me. It's probably important so that this ruling doesn't just look like an arbitrary house rule that is unsupported by any existing rules.(Which is actually the only reason I care- as stated before this decision has no bearing on any of my characters.)
Vathelokai 10-28-06, 11:26 PM	Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it’s not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight. ... An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell’s line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell’s line of effect. If you have at least 5 feet of web between you and an opponent, it provides cover. If you have at least 20 feet of web between you, it provides total cover.This came up in the Zodiac/Wisp fight this week. Web blocks LOS after 20 ft. However the description of Line of Effect says that factors that block normal sight don't block line of effect. So, can you target a spell into a space in the web area even if you cannot see it? In the fight, Wisp was far enough back into the webs to have LOS blocked, but if a sleep spell were targeted at the maximum LOS range, then the burst would extend past the LOS range and hit Wisp. Or would it? If LOS count's as LOE in this instance, would the burst be blocked, even though it is within the spells total range?
TheMagister 10-29-06, 01:22 AM	TM brings up a few very tough questions... 1: Can a psicrystal with Wild Talent regain psionic focus its self? 1: All creatures with the psionic subtype and at least 1pp have the capacity to become psionicially focused. There appears to be no exception to this rule found at the top of the feats section of the psionics SRD. I think the answer to this is "Yes, it can take Wild Talent. Yes, it gains the ability to gain a Psionic Focus. This seems pretty cut and dried. 2: Does a psicrystal with Wild Talent and subject to Psicrystal Containment have one psionic focus or two? 2: To answer this one I must quote the entire description of the psicrystal containment feat:All the details that follow must be held in context of the 1st description of the feat (with the underlined clause). The psionic focus that is being discussed by the details of the feat is the one your character stores within the crystal. All the other details are refering to a special kind of psionic focus, the one that is stored. This focus is different and seperate from the one that the psionic creature (psicrystal) can use to power its own feats. It is also different from the one that the psicrystal can use its own abilities to regain. The stored focus can only be regained by the character's efforts, not the psicrystal's abilities. Yes, the psicrystal is now holding the character's psionic focus in addition to holding its own psionic focus. The two foci, while held by the same creature, are seperate. The character has no access to the psicrystal's focus. The psicrystal has no access to the character's focus. Basically, for Hood, Bob having the Wild Talent feat doesn't really help out his build. 3: Does a psicrystal have ranks in skills that allow it to qualify for feats? 3: The section called "psicrystal basics" reads as follows:Thus the crystal does infact have skill ranks, and those ranks are drawn from the master's skills. As actual ranks, the psicrystal's skills can be used to qualify for feats. Easily proven, and obviously a "yes". 4: How does deep crystal work in conjunction with Manyshot? 4: Deep crystal allows you to spend 2pp and charge up a weapon with 2d6 of extra damage on a hit. This takes only a free action to accomplish. Thus it can be done at any time durring your turn. It can even be used to "charge up" every arrow in a full attack sequence (useing 2pp each arrow). The fact that the effect is transfered to the ammunition is something of note. In the past I assumed that the bow would retain the charge unless the arrow hits, but I've been recently told by Cat that the pp are lost into every arrow fired regardless of a hit or miss. That is currently the position being used untill he changes his mind, or is convinced otherwise. Note that the effect is in an arrow. So if the arrow misses, then the effect is lost. If the arrow hits, then the effect is applied. With the expenditure of 2pp each, you can apply it to every arrow in a volly or a full attack. Here, we do not agree. I have several links to posts regarding this relationship, one involving Pittbull and one involving Niqil (the links are on my work computer, and I can post them tomorrow night). MWB also seems to disagree with you on this point. Example: A flaming bow ({Brightly} "Heyyy!"). If two arrows in a manyshot were shot from this bow, how many would benefit from the +1d6 fire damage? Answer: Well...ALL of them! The property transfers to the ammunition. Since deepcrystal uses the same language, there should be no question as to the property transferring to the ammunition. So, 2pp makes the weapon's ammunition deal an extra +2d6 damage. If my character finds a nifty way to get more ammunition off the string in one attack, so be it. 5: How does Psionic Shot or Fell Shot or Greater Psionic Shot work in conjunction with Manyshot? 5: This one is perhaps the most difficult one to consider. There are lots of rules in various places to keep track of. I think it's worthwhile to consider the following various sources:Is it possible to use the Shot on the Run feat in conjunction with the Manyshot feat? Some people I know insist that you must use the attack action with Shot on the Run, and they further claim that Manyshot is a standard action and not the attack action. But there isn’t any such thing as an attack action, is there? The text on actions in Chapter 8 of the Player’s Handbook (page 138) describes many kinds of actions (standard actions, move actions, fullround actions, and free actions); it even describes things that are not actions and mentions restricted activity. Nowhere, however, do the rules describe attack actions. So, what’s the correct answer? No, you cannot use Shot on the Run and Manyshot together. It is true that no category of actions is called “attack actions” in the D&D game, but there is an action called attack—it’s the first action described under Standard Actions on page 139 in the Player’s Handbook. It might seem that the folks who say no Manyshot with Shot On the Run are slicing the baloney a little thin, but the letter of the rules is on their side, and so is the intent behind the letter of the rules. The Manyshot feat description could say you fire multiple arrows with the attack action, but it doesn’t. Manyshot is a standard action, not a variant on the attack action (see the feat description on page 97 in the Player’s Handbook). Likewise, the Shot on the Run feat could allow you to make any kind of ranged attack while moving, but it doesn’t. When using Shot on the Run, you must use the attack action with a ranged weapon (see the feat description on page 100 in the Player’s Handbook). This rules out using spells, most magic items, or special standard actions such as the Manyshot feat when making a Shot on the Run. That’s because casting a spell would require the cast a spell action (described on page 140 of the Player’s Handbook), using any magic item except for some use-activated items would require the activate magic item action (Player’s Handbook, page 142), and, as already noted here, using the Manyshot feat is a standard action. Most magic weapons are use activated and don’t require any action to activate at all (see page 213 in the DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide), so you can use these weapons along with the attack action. For example, you could use a +1 longbow or +1 arrow (or both) with the attack action, and thus you also could use these items with Shot on the Run.What the sage is telling us here is that the manyshot feat does not use an attack. Apparently there is a slim distinction between an attack and what the manyshot feat does. An attack is a specific standard action (or full action), while manyshot is a different kind of standard action. The attack roll of manshot is not technicially an "attack" for the purpose of shot on the run. This difference is important with respect to other feats as well. Feats that apply their effect to "attacks" cannot apply their effects to the manyshot action since it is not technicially an attack. This precludes psionic shot from modifying damage on a manyshot action. Now here we have a paradox of sorts. One can't have it both ways. Either one focus is expended and the effect applies to the attack as a whole (i.e. - expend focus and the attack [meaning the manyshot as a volley] gains +2d6 damage), yielding a total of 2d8+2d6 damage; or the effect applies to each arrow in the volley seperately (i.e. - expend focus and the first arrow deals 1d8+2d6 and the second arrow deals 1d8+2d6). Nobody likes the second interpretation. Okay. Manyshot, throughout the entire feat, is referred to as a single attack. One even makes only ONE attack roll to determine the success or failure of both arrows in the attack. I contend that, if Psionic Shot is used in conjunction with Manyshot vs. a target with Deflect Arrows and the attack hits but the first arrow is deflected, the volley will STILL do 1d8+2d6...because the attack still hit. The same holds true for Fell Shot. If Fell Shot is used to make the next ranged attack a touch attack, then all arrows fired in the Manyshot should be touch attacks. Manyshot is one attack. I don't see how this could be read any other way without "reading what you want the rules to say", as you so eloquently put it. I'm sorry TM, but I think the details show that the combination of feats and effects you have proposed will not work in precisely the way you had hoped. It may be a comfort to you that many of your proposed feats will work in conjunction on a typical full attack or typical standard attack. For example fell shot and greater psionic shot and deep crystal and even dissolving weapon on the arrow can all be applied to a single standard action. The damage potential could be devastating, and could be used in conjunction with shot on the run. I believe that you are mistaken in some of your conclusions. I also know that some of the elders disagree with some of your conclusions as well. I will detail those posts tomorrow when I have access to my work computer. I would like to state that it is ENTIRELY POSSIBLE that I am mis-remembering their conclusions. If I am, this is not intentional; I'm just not that good at remembering things long term. Ask my wife if you don't believe me. In the meanwhile, please consider my statements above. =) Thanks for putting so much effort and skull-sweat into this subject for me, you guys! This includes McJarvis, Sauro, MWB, and anyone else who has chimed in; for or against. TM
TheMagister 10-29-06, 01:05 AM	It's the same issue with all feats. Some sources suggest that you can take any feat without meeting the prereqs, but you just can't use it; others state that you can't even take it. I'm inclined to go with the former, because there are a few feats (particularly epic feats) that are clearly designed to be chosen by characters who don't ordinarily meet the prereqs. Should I take this as an affirmative that I can select psionic feats for Bob that he cannot benefit from?
Vathelokai 10-29-06, 09:14 AM	Since there are so many travel/magic clerics about I see this as important, though not really pressing. TRAVEL DOMAIN Granted Powers: For a total time per day of 1 round per cleric level you possess, you can act normally regardless of magical effects that impede movement as if you were affected by the spell freedom of movement. This effect occurs automatically as soon as it applies, lasts until it runs out or is no longer needed, and can operate multiple times per day (up to the total daily limit of rounds). This granted power is a supernatural ability. Hrmm...This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. So that means (cleric, wizard and druid lists lv 1-6) Touch of fatigue, Grease, web, ghoul touch, hold person (or monster), ray of exhaustion, slow, solid fog, some of nightmare, waves of fatigue, some guards and wards, repulsion, some freezing sphere, entangle, plant growth, sleet storm, snare, wind wall, some spike stones, some control winds, What about things like obscuring mist; you cannot move full speed in them because you cannot see where you are going. Or Daze, which causes you to loose an action. Or alter self when you change into a creature with a slower speed. Or if someone casts dispel magic on your boots of speed. Or suggestions that cause you to move slower. Does it work against black tentacles, since that are actually a conjured creature that happens to grapple as an attack; what about summoned monsters that try to grapple? Or confusion, since you might just stand around. Or enervation if you have monk levels and loose your bonus speed (or barbarian for that matter). Or transmute rock to mud, which dosn't target the character, but does effect their movement (compare to web). Or gust of wind if you're a small creature. Or protection from alignments and magic circles that block an approach. Or forbidance and dimentional anchor which block extra dimentional movement.
TheMagister 10-29-06, 06:53 PM	Hmmm...I thought I had another one. Oh well. This is what I have saved. Relevant Rules about Manyshot/Greater Manyshot (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=636662&page=87) Whoa! It was SAURO who typed the relevant stuff in the quote!! Edit: I'm finding the other stuff, earlier in the AaE thread. Posting links as I go: A leading question answered by Pittbull.
SauroGrenom 10-29-06, 10:01 PM	I'm reading the comments by MWB and I think he has it right. I suppose I also had it right the first time around. The crux of the issue with respect to ManyShot is that it's not an "attack action". An attack action is a special kind of standard action. But ManyShot is is still an attack, and it is a different kind of standard action that is also an attack. When I read over it in the FAQ I blurred that distinction a bit and came to the wrong conclusion. So yes. Psionic Shot and fell shot can be used to apply the feats to every arrow in the "attack". In this case it's applied to mutiple arrows. Also I think I need to clarify on the 4th one. I see that MWB has some valuable comments. You also state that:Here, we do not agree. I have several links to posts regarding this relationship, one involving Pittbull and one involving Niqil (the links are on my work computer, and I can post them tomorrow night). MWB also seems to disagree with you on this point. Example: A flaming bow ({Brightly} "Heyyy!"). If two arrows in a manyshot were shot from this bow, how many would benefit from the +1d6 fire damage? Answer: Well...ALL of them! The property transfers to the ammunition. Since deepcrystal uses the same language, there should be no question as to the property transferring to the ammunition. So, 2pp makes the weapon's ammunition deal an extra +2d6 damage. If my character finds a nifty way to get more ammunition off the string in one attack, so be it.There is no question about whether the deep crystal property transfers to the ammunition. The difference is that the flaming bow has no "charges". The bow applies the flame damage to every arrow, not just one arrow fired. So the question is this. What happens when you use a deep crystal bow to fire a manyshot volley of 3 arrows? There are several options that we can consider. 1: You spend 2PP and fire 3 arrows with +2d6 damage on every arrow. 2: You spend 2PP and fire 3 arrows, but only the "first" arrow that hits has +2d6 damage. 3: You spend 2PP and fire 3 arrows, but only one chosen arrow carries the "charge" for +2d6 damage and you decide which arrow before the attack roll is made. 4: You spend 2PP, 4PP or 6PP and fire 3 arrows, each 2PP allows a chosen arrow to carry the "charge". I think that deap crystal is different from a flaming effect. The continious effects of magical weapons never discharge. Deep Crystal is more simular to a spellstoring weapon effect. It discharges on a hit. Now I've asked Cat and he consideres that the "charge" is transfered to the ammunition at the time it is fired. So if the arrow misses, tough luck... you loose 2pp for nothing. The 1st option above is like splitting 1 charge into 3, and I don't think we can allow that. The second option ignores the idea that the ammunition carries the charge away from the bow and that transfer happens at the moment the arrow is fired. The 3rd option is probably the option most directly supported by the rules. But I think there is some support for option 4 as well. The relevant section of the SRD is as follows:As a free action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, the wielder can channel psionic power into a melee weapon or ranged weapon made of deep crystal. For 2 power points, the deep crystal weapon deals an extra 2d6 points of damage. The weapon will stay charged for 1 minute or until it scores its next hit. Bows, crossbows, and slings bestow this power on their ammunition. All missile weapons lose this effect if they miss.Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free.So clearly the damage boost only applies untill one hit is scored on most weapons. On a bow the damage boost applies to the next arrow fired in most situations. I suggest that In a manyshot the "charge" is transfered to a chosen arrow. This is simular to how sneak attack damage and critical hit damage apply to only one arrow in the volley (details in the FAQ). However we also see that the arrows released from the bow carry the charge away and loose it hit or miss. So in a standard situation only one arrow has the "charge". But it's a free action to put a charge on an arrow, and you can perform free actions while performing other actions, then I think that you can also charge up as many arrows as you like in a volley. Thus I think you can fire 3 arrows with +2d6 damage, but it will just cost you 6PP to do this.
TheMagister 10-29-06, 10:14 PM	I read and understand your position. If I might pose another leading question: An Oathbow is a +2 Mighty (+2) Composite Longbow. When used normally, this weapon deals 1d8+2 damage. If manyshot were used in conjunction with this bow, each arrow would deal 1d8+2 damage. When "sworn", the "damage" of the bow changes. The arrows fired now deal 1d8+2 plus 2d6 extra damage vs. the "sworn enemy". When manyshot is used in conjunction with a "sworn" Oathbow, each arrow would deal 1d8+2+2d6 damage because the damage value of the bow has changed. If I may borrow a quotation from your post and change the emphasis: As a free action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, the wielder can channel psionic power into a melee weapon or ranged weapon made of deep crystal. For 2 power points, the deep crystal weapon deals an extra 2d6 points of damage. The weapon will stay charged for 1 minute or until it scores its next hit. Bows, crossbows, and slings bestow this power on their ammunition. All missile weapons lose this effect if they miss. Please explain the difference between the two situations. Also consider that the flaming property also changes the damage done by the bow, adjusting it by adding an extra 1d6 fire damage. The language used in each description of each ability is nearly identical (I don't think the Oathbow declares that it transfers the +2d6 extra damage to its ammunition because it's silly to think that it doesn't...I could be wrong though). Please also note that for 2pp a character is "charging" the bow with psionic power, not the arrow(s). To view it as "charging an arrow" is erroneous. The base damage value of the launcher is changing until it scores a successful attack (for a melee weapon) or until the next attack is made (for a ranged weapon) or 1 minute has passed. Please remember that we have established that Manyshot is a single attack. Thanks again for continuing this service for us!
hogarth 10-29-06, 10:20 PM	Please explain the difference between the two situations. Also consider that the flaming property also changes the damage done by the bow, adjusting it by adding an extra 1d6 fire damage. The difference is that the deep crystal damage applies only until its next hit (which implies the next single hit to me). If there was the same wording for the Flaming property or for the Oathbow, the same principle would apply. To me, what you're suggesting is like saying one dose of poison should be enough for all arrows used in a Manyshot since it's one attack.
TheMagister 10-29-06, 10:25 PM	The difference is that the deep crystal damage applies only until its next hit (which implies the next single hit to me). If there was the same wording for the Flaming property or for the Oathbow, the same principle would apply. To me, what you're suggesting is like saying one dose of poison should be enough for all arrows used in a Manyshot since it's one attack. If the entry for poison specifically said that if you applied poison to the bow and the bow transferred the property to the ammunition, I'd have a case. Manyshot is a single attack (made at a -4 penalty). If we were talking about Greater Manyshot (which clarifies each arrow as a seperate attack), then the 2pp/arrow would make sense.
hogarth 10-29-06, 10:30 PM	Manyshot is a single attack (made at a -4 penalty). If we were talking about Greater Manyshot (which clarifies each arrow as a seperate attack), then the 2pp/arrow would make sense. It's a single attack that results in (possibly) multiple hits. The deep crystal charge only applies to a single hit. I know I'm not going to convince you -- this is exactly the sort of thing that can only be settled by an Elder vote (which I expect you'll lose ;)).
SauroGrenom 10-29-06, 10:35 PM	The difference is that with an oathbow or a flaming bow the damage increases apply to every arrow fired from the bow at the target. So in a full attack sequence the 1st and the 5th arrows both have the same damage since the magical properties of the bow are the same. However a deep crystal bow does not necessarily have an underlying enchantment. The deep crystal effect is like a charge, and it is discharged. Spend 2pp get +2d6 on one hit. The weapon stays charged untill the next hit. So you only get to discharge the weapon once/2pp. Your 2pp gets you one charge, and one charge gets you +2d6 on only one hit. Now we need to focus on the fact that with a ranged weapon these charges move to the ammunition. So the bow does not score a hit, the arrow does. That is why most of the details in various sources indicates that ranged weapons transfer their effect to the ammunition. In the case of deep crystal bows, the "charge" goes to the arrow(s) fired. I suggest that you can spend 2pp/arrow because the charge is transfered to the ammunition. So as soon as the 1st arrow is set to string, the ammunition could be imagined to take up the "charge". When the next arrow is laid on the string it's a free action to put another 2pp into the bow and that is automaticially transfered to the uncharged 2nd arrow. Repeat as needed to put an extra charge into every arrow.
NiQil 10-29-06, 10:53 PM	I'm going to chime in here with something to consider. A recent FAQ clarified that when a soulknife uses his Psychic Strike with the Bladewind ability soulknife's gain, the Psychic Strike only applies to a single mindblade. I see no reason that deep crystal should be more powerful than this ability. In my opinion, the RAW supports spending 2 pp to gain +2d6 damage on the entirety of a Manyshot (in other words, it only applies once, because you are only making one roll), just as you would only gain this on the Greater Manyshot (which is based from the Bladewind ruling I mentioned, and the fact that Greater Manyshot and Bladewind are extremely similar). Edit: Here is the relevant Court Decision regarding Bladewind and Greater Manyshot: Q: How does the soulknife ability Bladewind compare to the feats Whirlwind Attack and Greater Manyshot? A: All three function in a very similar fashion. Each of the abilites allows you to make attacks against multiple opponents with a single action, rather than using the full attack action to use secondary and tertiary attacks. All three abilities resolve themselves in the same way. You use your highest base attack bonus, and roll an attack vs each target within your attack area (depending on the feat/ability). All attacks made in this fashion operate as seperate attacks. Any enchantments or enhancements that do not go away after a successful attack will continue to function for each attack roll you are making. Any single-attack enchantments or enhancements will only apply to the first attack in the sequence, as per the FAQ ruling regarding soulknives, Psychic Strike and Bladewind. With this in mind, I do not believe that a deepcrystal weapon can bestow pp on the multiple arrows it fires because you are still only making one attack roll. If this were to be true, then Greater Manyshot would allow you to put 2 pp into a deepcrystal bow and it would apply to all of the attacks made by Greater Manyshot, which clearly it does not. In short, I feel the RAW calls for +2pp to be used on a single Manyshot, with which an additional 2d6 damage will be gained from these pp, regardless of how many of the Manyshot arrows actually connect.
MindWandererB 10-29-06, 11:00 PM	But it's a free action to put a charge on an arrow, and you can perform free actions while performing other actions, then I think that you can also charge up as many arrows as you like in a volley. Thus I think you can fire 3 arrows with +2d6 damage, but it will just cost you 6PP to do this.Ironically, this is the one interpretation I can't stand by. The Many shots are simultaneous--they're not like a full attack, where the individual attacks are sequential (and thus, you can direct later attacks after seeing the results of earlier ones). There is no "in between" time where you can perform a free action. I can see both of the other interpretations, but choosing between them would be a balance thing rather than a RAW thing, from where I'm standing. I reserve comments for later in the discussion.
TheMagister 10-29-06, 11:10 PM	So the current state of affairs is this: 1: Can a psicrystal with Wild Talent regain psionic focus its self? 2: Does a psicrystal with Wild Talent and subject to Psicrystal Containment have one psionic focus or two? 3: Does a psicrystal have ranks in skills that allow it to qualify for feats? 4: How does deep crystal work in conjunction with Manyshot? 5: How does Psionic Shot or Fell Shot or Greater Psionic Shot work in conjunction with Manyshot? MindwandererB: 1) Yes. 2) Two, but they are seperate. The character only has access to the focus that he/she stored in the crystal. The psicrystal is the only one that can use the focus that it gains from being a (newly) psionic creature. 3) Yes. 4) Manyshot is a single, simultaneous action. There's no way to recharge the bow "in between" shots. (The logic behind Manyshot is that you're placing multiple arrows on the string at once, and firing them all with one pull.) Edit: Clarified - disagrees with spending 2pp/arrow as multiple free actions to charge up each arrow seperately in a Manyshot. 5) No stated opinion (contended that Manyshot is in fact, an attack). SauroGrenom: 1) Yes. 2) Two, but they are seperate. The character only has access to the focus that he/she stored in the crystal. The psicrystal is the only one that can use the focus that it gains from being a (newly) psionic creature. 3) Yes. 4) A character may spend 2pp as a free action to psionically charge each arrow in the volley, 2pp/arrow. 5) Yes. Psionic Shot and fell shot can be used to apply the feats to every arrow in the "attack". In this case it's applied to mutiple arrows. Niqil: 1) No opinion on this issue. 2) No opinion on this issue. 3) No opinion on this issue. 4) I feel the RAW calls for +2pp to be used on a single Manyshot, with which an additional 2d6 damage will be gained from these pp, regardless of how many of the Manyshot arrows actually connect. 5) I feel the RAW calls for one feat expenditure for Psionic Shot/Fell Shot to be used on a single Manyshot, with which an additional 2d6 damage/ranged touch attack property will be gained from this focus expenditure, regardless of how many of the Manyshot arrows actually connect. Please, if I have mis-stated or mis-represented your positions on any issue or sub-issue, post so that I may update/change this post. Be nice! If I did make a mistake, it was purely unintentional.
NiQil 10-29-06, 11:17 PM	You can add my opinion to number 5 as the same as number 4...one bonus for each attack made, not each arrows fired. The logic is the same as that of my reasoning for number 4. I will not chime in on the first 3, because I already disagree with how psicrystals are treated here, and so answering those questions, in my mind, just makes them even more ridiculous then they are now.
TheMagister 10-29-06, 11:32 PM	So edited. Please check my wording. =) Thanks for participating!
hogarth 10-30-06, 10:38 AM	The powers Energy Missile, Energy Stun and Astral Construct received errata in the book Complete Psionic. Does that mean we should use the errata or not?
SauroGrenom 10-30-06, 10:51 AM	The powers Energy Missile, Energy Stun and Astral Construct received errata in the book Complete Psionic. Does that mean we should use the errata or not? What does the errata say?
hogarth 10-30-06, 10:56 AM	What does the errata say? Energy Missile: instead of +1 DC for every power point of augmentation, it receives +1 DC for every 2 power points of augmentation Energy Stun: ditto Astral Construct: you can only have 1 astral construct active at any given time The first two seem pretty reasonable, but that last one is pretty stupid. At any rate, I'm wondering if we're supposed to incorporate errata from other books or not.
MindWandererB 10-30-06, 02:20 PM	Unfortunately, since that errata isn't "official," we can't use it.
McJarvis 10-30-06, 02:23 PM	Does the Arena map have loose rocks lying around the arena that can be used as either improvised thrown weapons or improvised sling bullets?
hogarth 10-30-06, 02:26 PM	Unfortunately, since that errata isn't "official," we can't use it. That's like saying that Level Adjustments from Libris Mortis aren't "official" so we can't use them. Except we do. Furthermore, WotC have specified that versions of feats/spells/powers/etc. that appear in newer books supersede those in older books. (For the record, I don't care if the errata are used or not; I'm just wondering what the rationale is behind including/excluding them.)
Zevox 10-30-06, 02:29 PM	Does the Arena map have loose rocks lying around the arena that can be used as either improvised thrown weapons or improvised sling bullets? One of the rules for the basic arena map is that the terrain counts as anything beneficial to you. So it works for entangle, for instance. In this case, yes, you'll be able to pick up improvised sling stones everywhere in that map. Zevox
MindWandererB 10-30-06, 02:38 PM	That's like saying that Level Adjustments from Libris Mortis aren't "official" so we can't use them. Except we do. Furthermore, WotC have specified that versions of feats/spells/powers/etc. that appear in newer books supersede those in older books. (For the record, I don't care if the errata are used or not; I'm just wondering what the rationale is behind including/excluding them.) We use Libris Mortis because we copied the relevant tables into our own board. We could do the same with what I call the "non-errata errata," but it wouldn't be automatic.
TheMagister 10-30-06, 06:55 PM	I hate to bring this up again, but Mssr. Hood is dodging the Gladius Police Force as we speak. I chose Psionic Body for Bob the Psicrystal's level 3 feat. I did this with the intention of using that psionic power (is it "Mind Leech"?) to steal the feat from Bob so that Hood can gain some HP that lasts a while and stacks with vigor. Cheese? Yes, but only a thin slice. Bob does NOT meet the prereqs for Psionic Body. However, there is that little section in the XPH that specifies that a character could take a psionic feat when they didn't qualify for it, but it would be useless to them. Can I do this without getting tossed into prison again? MWB (last I remember) said that he thinks that it's stupid, but legal. No one else had an opinion. Edit: Relevant Stuff - {laughing} Fair enough! I feel like all the smart people on the board are shaking their fingers at me! Still, this part: A nonpsionic character could, in theory, take Psionic Fist, but without psionic energy to fuel it, the feat is worthless. Would that make Bob able to take the feat, but not benefit from it? It's the same issue with all feats. Some sources suggest that you can take any feat without meeting the prereqs, but you just can't use it; others state that you can't even take it. I'm inclined to go with the former, because there are a few feats (particularly epic feats) that are clearly designed to be chosen by characters who don't ordinarily meet the prereqs. TM
SauroGrenom 10-30-06, 07:03 PM	Meh. Stinky Cheese.:whatsthis From what I understand you cannot take feats unless you qualify for them. Some feats can be taken if you have semi permanent effects that allow you to quailfy for them. Like if a feat requires 13WIS and you can get a hold of a wis boosting item, then you can take the feat even though your natural WIS is only 10. But you cannot take leadership as a 3rd level character. Simularly you cannot mimic being a psionic creature. So you cannot take a psionic feat unless you qualify.
TheMagister 10-30-06, 09:45 PM	That's enough for me. I felt dirty even suggesting it, but I'm not above eke-ing out any advantage I can in this dire-shark infested sea of optimizing power-gamers. I'll pick something a little more tame. ... Like Wild Talent. What's Bob going to DO with it? I dunno. Maybe wield a fine light crossbow and take psionic shot when Hood reaches PsiWar 6. Ack! Brb. My cheese is burning! :yuck: TM
hogarth 10-30-06, 09:50 PM	Like Wild Talent. What's Bob going to DO with it? I dunno. Maybe wield a fine light crossbow and take psionic shot when Hood reaches PsiWar 6. Ack! Brb. My cheese is burning! :yuck: That's utterly ridiculous! A psicrystal wielding a weapon? I'm aghast! Note that Reginald Molehusband's psicrystal has a ring that spits Sonic Substituted Acid Splash cantrips.
hogarth 11-01-06, 04:09 PM	1) If a psion uses the feat Metamorphic Transfer to use an ability that operates continuously (e.g. a barbed devil's Barbed Defense or a shadow mastiff's Shadow Blend), does that ability last for one round or for as long as the psion stays in that shape? (Or is there a third option?) 2) In the rules for Polymorph, there's a line that states: Just like resist energy and other spells, expendables with polymorph [..] must be specified beforehand. However, I can't find anywhere else in the rules that mentions specifying an energy type for resist energy. The SRD lists a price for scrolls of resist energy (without having the energy type specified), but a potion of resist energy is listed as having a type specified. Is it in fact the case that you need to specify the energy type of a scroll of resist energy? What about a power stone of specified energy resistance?
MindWandererB 11-01-06, 05:06 PM	However, I can't find anywhere else in the rules that mentions specifying an energy type for resist energy. The SRD lists a price for scrolls of resist energy (without having the energy type specified), but a potion of resist energy is listed as having a type specified. Is it in fact the case that you need to specify the energy type of a scroll of resist energy? What about a power stone of specified energy resistance?This is a RAW rule. Scrolls (and stones, and actually wands and dorjes) don't have to be specified. Potions (and tattoos) do.
hogarth 11-01-06, 05:11 PM	This is a RAW rule. Scrolls (and stones, and actually wands and dorjes) don't have to be specified. Potions (and tattoos) do. Ah, I found it now. "The character taking the potion doesn't get to make any decisions about the effect -- the caster who brewed the potion has already done so." Any thoughts about Metamorphic Transfer? This will become an issue for Kilpquabjeg in a few weeks if she uses Alter Self to turn into a Choker.
MindWandererB 11-01-06, 05:42 PM	1) If a psion uses the feat Metamorphic Transfer to use an ability that operates continuously (e.g. a barbed devil's Barbed Defense or a shadow mastiff's Shadow Blend), does that ability last for one round or for as long as the psion stays in that shape? (Or is there a third option?)From my reading of it, you choose the ability when you take on the shape. I would therefore guess that if it's not a use/day ability, you retain it for as long as you retain the shape.
Ravashack 11-01-06, 09:04 PM	What is the height of the Energy Wall power? The power only lists a max length.
Abyssal Stalker 11-02-06, 03:21 AM	I would like to get a clear elder ruling on how the oh-so-wonderful bag of tricks should work? There are some things concerning it that aren't covered in the rules, at least not too well. -Do you need to "draw" it in order to use it, or is it OK to keep it hanging on your side and then pick up a ball from there? -When does the creature drawn act? Right after the character drawing it? Roll initiative? -Is the creature flat-footed when drawn? -How is the creature commanded? Handle animal? Just telling it what to do? Free action? Move action? -How does it work in conjunction with the 1/3 rule? This is rather important because it is so popular item and the description of the item isn't too well-written. I guess it wasn't originally ment to be used as a combat item. :bump: This hasn't been answered yet.
TelinArtho 11-02-06, 10:56 AM	It is a standard action to use - and I generally assume it is tied to the character's belt for ready access. The standard action covers drawing the ball from the bag and throwing it. The animal acts immediately and can take a full action right away. The creature can be handled with any of the tricks in the handle animal skill (or with the accepted ones we have in the rules) without an action and without a skill check It can be used up to 10 times per week, which equates to 4 per fight up to 10 per 3 fight cycle.
Zelck 11-02-06, 11:05 AM	What if you have a way of communicating with the animal? Can you tell it to do stuff that's not a trick?
hogarth 11-02-06, 11:09 AM	What if you have a way of communicating with the animal? Can you tell it to do stuff that's not a trick? Treetall Oakleg (a forest gnome) has done this in his fights (like telling an animal "find the elf and kill him", for instance). No doubt you have to keep in mind that animals aren't very smart, though.
TelinArtho 11-02-06, 11:22 AM	They are just as smart as a regular animal, but since it duplicates the Summon Nature's Ally spells - you get the same degree of control over them without the need for skills/feats to do it. So there's no "Find an elf, grab him by the neck and hold him until I get there," but there is a "seek and pin."
hogarth 11-02-06, 11:28 AM	They are just as smart as a regular animal, but since it duplicates the Summon Nature's Ally spells - you get the same degree of control over them without the need for skills/feats to do it. So there's no "Find an elf, grab him by the neck and hold him until I get there," but there is a "seek and pin." You don't think an animal can tell the difference between an elf and a human (say) if you use Speak with Animals or a forest gnome's animal language? At any rate, I think animal intelligence is up to the individual pitlord to rule on.
TelinArtho 11-02-06, 11:48 AM	No I don't think it can. Maybe the difference between an orc and a human (MAYBE), but in general - I would assume it would not be able to tell between potential targets if presented with 2 humans and an elf - it would not be able to reliably pick out the elf without more information that it can understand.
Zelck 11-02-06, 11:56 AM	What about "Hold perfectly still" or "Allow me to touch you"? ;)
TelinArtho 11-02-06, 12:04 PM	That would be stay - and since they are an ally - a touch from you is probably not going to be taken as a hostile maneuver (unless the "touch" is actually a glistening sword with blood dripping from it...). Note, an animal would probably have a harder time following directions from an invisible master - since it can't see the appropriate hand movements and such - but if the command is "attack" and only one foe presents itself, it will probably be fine. Commands like seek, guard and such that require pointing out an area or attack when there's multiple opponents present could be ignored altogether or misunderstood.
TheMagister 11-02-06, 12:08 PM	I'm considering that for Rubicanti's upcoming fight, too, Zelck. How does one go about mounting a hostile horse? A high Ride check? Opposed Handle Animal check? I mean, it's Ride to stay on, obviously (DC 20...the same for controlling a panicked mount - sounds perfect). Seems like the best place to assault a grappling horse is while you're on its back riding it and it can't hit you. Could an opposed Handle Animal check turn the horse away (ala Crocodile Dundee?)? Could you make the horse indifferent/friendly with a high enough check? All interesting questions with no concrete DnD answers. TM
malakaiunseen 11-02-06, 12:41 PM	I mean, it's Ride to stay on, obviously (DC 20...the same for controlling a panicked mount - sounds perfect). From over ten years experience riding and breaking in horses, I would suggest that a "panicking" horse would be a lower ride DC than an "aggresive" or "hostile" horse. Its a lot easier to ride out a panicking horse, who usually has the normal response of "flee in a random direction", maybe with a buck or tow along the way, whereas a horse that is specifically trying to get you off is more like your 8 second ride in the bronco ring. I would call it a DC25 at least, maybe even 30. You need to be good to stay on that for long. But where you're right is that on top is definately the best place to be when the horse shi-ite hits the fan. :D Incidently, I would say that mounting a hostile horse could only be done with a similar handle animal check, a very high strength check, a barrier, or magic.
hogarth 11-02-06, 06:33 PM	What is the height of the Energy Wall power? The power only lists a max length. I assume it's the same as Wall of Fire (20') since the rest of the description seems like a cut 'n' paste from it.
NiQil 11-02-06, 09:23 PM	:blink: And it looks like Cat snuck another promotion in on us....albeit with my wholehearted approval (and my recommendation as well). Congrats on the Elder promotion Telin...'bout time.
Zevox 11-02-06, 09:29 PM	:blink: And it looks like Cat snuck another promotion in on us....albeit with my wholehearted approval (and my recommendation as well). Congrats on the Elder promotion Telin...'bout time. Indeed, congrats Telin :clap: . And it looks like KU gets to be our second "Core Coliseum Oldtimer" too :D . Zevox
NiQil 11-02-06, 09:31 PM	Indeed, congrats Telin :clap: . And it looks like KU gets to be our second "Core Coliseum Oldtimer" too :D . Zevox Actually, the third....Huan was second...he had it when MWB replaced him as an Elder. So that leaves us with myself, Sauro, Pittbull, Telin and MWB as Elders and LLMC, Huan and KU as Oldtimers. And Cat is an Oldtimer also, but only because he's 7 years older than dirt :P LOL
Zevox 11-02-06, 09:36 PM	Actually, the third....Huan was second...he had it when MWB replaced him as an Elder. Ah, that makes sense. I must've missed him getting it since his posts have become so rare now. Zevox
MindWandererB 11-03-06, 02:00 AM	I'd thought that Telin was offered the post earlier and refused. At least, that's what I was told--I suggested to Cat that he be given the title before me. Lucky for him he used the week of discrepancy to get in on the UnCon. Congrats!
TelinArtho 11-03-06, 10:54 AM	Yes, the position has been offered to me a few times - and this was the only time I could take it completely "guilt" free - as in the other cases I knew I would be taking breaks and I needed to get things normal for me first. In any case, thanks for the kind words... now I am off to impose my newfound power on some unsuspecting villagers...
SauroGrenom 11-03-06, 03:25 PM	Congrats Telin, you've been a stable force around for a while. Thanks for taking on the mantle of elder. :clap:
TheMagister 11-03-06, 07:32 PM	Actually, the third....Huan was second...he had it when MWB replaced him as an Elder. So that leaves us with myself, Sauro, Pittbull, Telin and MWB as Elders and LLMC, Huan and KU as Oldtimers. And Cat is an Oldtimer also, but only because he's 7 years older than dirt :P LOL HEY! I'm the same age as Cat! :weep: I'm not as old as dirt...but I was around when they discovered mud. ;)
malakaiunseen 11-05-06, 07:35 AM	I have a question which has been bugging me for some time now. Why is there such a big opportunity cost for not taking item creation feats? Usually item creation requires a certain CL, AND costs a considerable amount of XP, these costs are what counterbalance any decision to personally craft items. At the moment in the CoCo, it is almost a crime not to take an item creation feat(or two or three). With one of those feats, you are halving the price of items bought for practically no cost above the feat slot and the small amount of time it takes to make something. If you compare two sensible gear lists of characters of similar ECL, the one with item creation feats will have double the amount of stuff, and therefore double the amount of bonuses. This definately out weighs the benefits of most other feats. I don't understand why this rule has been implemented. IMO it seriously unbalances the Item Creation feats and it is for this reason that they are disproportiantaly represented here on the CoCo. I can see that if XP cost were still in place, characters could craft indefinately to have super arsenals of weaponry and gear at low ECLs. However, the situation as it is is not much better. Perhaps XP can be taken away, but not have it affect the characters ECL. If a character has to pay XP for an item, then doesn't go up in level because of that. Perhaps they could still join the higher ECL fight level, to represent all the extra gear they have. Thats just an idea. Anyway, I'm sure someone has a totally reasonable answer to this problem...
SauroGrenom 11-05-06, 11:11 AM	We've worked on that and thought about having some way of putting "xp" cost into CoCo in a meaningfull way. It gets complicated and not worth it. As it is the item creation feats are mostly the perview of wizards and clerics. They have the necessary spells on the spell lists for all the stat boosting items. In CoCo there are only 3 immutable costs. Those are gp, skill points and feats. In assending order of value. All other things the character can have in abundance with sufficient patience. If you sit out for a month crafting, it's no problem to a character here. You don't miss out on anything you cannot get every week. The xp requirement is waved because loosing xp is a benefit here. The CL requirements are waved, because they are unreasonable in some cases (for example pearl of power) and it's a long standing rule. Item creation feats cost a feat. This is the most valuable "cost". The items cost a deminished amount of gold, but to use this option you must have the minimum CL to qualify for the feats and the correct spells on our spell list. The item creation feats may be highly valuable ones, but no matter what they are not as overpowered as the leaderhip feat. Item creation feats cost you something serious, and the costs are multi-faceted. Realy we've just removed the highly restricting and somethimes unreasonable CL requirement and the benifit of xp loss and accellerated the pace (who wants to wait around all that time anyway... not like you miss anything). That's why it is the way it is.
malakaiunseen 11-05-06, 11:38 AM	In CoCo there are only 3 immutable costs. Those are gp, skill points and feats. In assending order of value. I agree with the restrictive CLs, but read on... OK so feats might be the most valuable commodity. But gold is also a commodity. And I think it is clear that in this case, a relatively small investment in one commodity(feats) reaps a disproportiante return in another(gp). This is the problem. In the specific case of Item Creation feats, the cost of the investment is outwieghed by the gains. The value of all other feats is lowered so much just by making a few feats such as Item Creation ones and Leadership act much more powerfully than other feats in the context of CoCo. The difference between many of feats is already terribly huge, to teh point where there are plenty of feats that noone will ever take, but making it so that there a few feats which everyone is mad not to take is seriously countreproductive. I know that costing XP is not good in the CoCo, but what of my suggestion? XP used for crafting could come off your total for determining your actual level increases, but not actually change what your ECL should be. After all, losses in XP are gains in magical power....
SauroGrenom 11-05-06, 11:55 AM	I know that costing XP is not good in the CoCo, but what of my suggestion? XP used for crafting could come off your total for determining your actual level increases, but not actually change what your ECL should be. After all, losses in XP are gains in magical power.... As I mentioned above. This has been tried. It creates a confusing mess of rules where there are different kinds of xp that needs to be tracked. I proposed it myself in the past, and it was shot down by a great public outcry.
malakaiunseen 11-05-06, 12:17 PM	Thats a shame, because a quick glance over the gear list of a character with item creation feats versus one without will clearly show how much this is being (ab)used. For example, one feat could give you something like +3 to one skill or +2 to two differnet skill. An Item creation feat wil double your buying power of magic items that give skills, making simple boots of elvenkind into a boots of elven kind and a cloak of elvenkind for the same price. An thats just your first use of the feat. Over the course of an adventuring carreer, it will be soooo much more powerfull than other feats because of no penalties. You see, even leadership could be fixed with the new three fight cycle system. Allies could just be brought to a certian number of fights per cycle. It could easily be scaled down from all to some, with intelligent allies perhaps having other business to attend to in the rest of the time as a simple justification. But the item creation feats need fixing IMO. They are too powerfull. Don't get me wrong, I am happy to use them, it is nice to have more gear. But it a shame when you are at a disadvantage not to use them... Why were your ideas shot down last time? Because people feared adding more complications to an already complicated system? OR because they feared that crafting might get balanced beyond posibility for further abuse?
SauroGrenom 11-05-06, 01:16 PM	Why were your ideas shot down last time? Because people feared adding more complications to an already complicated system? OR because they feared that crafting might get balanced beyond posibility for further abuse?The former.
McJarvis 11-05-06, 01:58 PM	Comparing Craft feats to +skill feats is pretty much meaningless since +skill feats are already underpowered as-is.(compare with psicrystal affinity, which gives you a dumbed-down leadership like cohort & +3 to a skill check). As far as items go-> Obviously losing xp when creating items is overpowered in the CoCo because of the way the xp penalty is supposed to work: Party of level 6's are adventuring together. One is a mage who crafts stuff. The mage crafts enough to lose a level relative to the party, then fine. He has more gp than the rest of the party, customized items all to himself, & he's a level behind. The balance is there. In the CoCo: If the XP penalty was instituted, obviously he would be a level 5 character with the gp of a level 6 character fighting level 5 characters. As-is, crafting is an invaluable way to increase your gp bang-for-buck amount since there is no penalty. So here's my solutions: 1) Have them pay the xp, but pay an amount of gp equal to the xp->gp ratio for the characters level. or 2) Instead of having the xp penalty subtracted from their XP total, have it added to their XP total with no gp gain on top of that. Of course, I don't really believe crafting is broken in and of itself, but since CoCo is trying to "simulate" the table-top experience, crafting surely shouldn't be as powerful as it is in CoCo....maybe? This is the last post I'll make on this one. Don't care enough to do much other than throw out some suggestions :) As far as leadership is concerned-> No one seems to think leadership is worthy of nerfing. It's a lost cause already.
hogarth 11-05-06, 02:40 PM	We've worked on that and thought about having some way of putting "xp" cost into CoCo in a meaningfull way. It gets complicated and not worth it. I'm not suggesting that the crafting feats need to be changed, but the easiest way to change them would be to change the amount of raw materials needed. If a 50% discount on magic items is "too powerful" relative to the cost of 1 feat, and a 1% discount is "too weak", then it would be easy to create a house rule to require 75% of the market price in raw materials instead (for instance). Or if a 25% discount is still "too weak", then there must be some equilibrium point between 1% and 50% where crafting feats are still worth it to some players, but they're not a no-brainer to everyone.
Hirumajoe 11-05-06, 02:49 PM	Of course, I don't really believe crafting is broken in and of itself, but since CoCo is trying to "simulate" the table-top experience, crafting surely shouldn't be as powerful as it is in CoCo....maybe? All depends on who's table top. I know at least one play group who won't touch crafting feats with a 10' pole. They basically feel casters are all about maintaining a high caster level, and losing a level to a crafting xp penalty which doesn't get them higher level spells isn't as useful. That same play group is plays with the same type of access to NPC crafters as the CoCo has (i.e. unlimited). In other groups, you might have very restrictive or non-existant NPC crafters at which point being able to customize magic items to your exact specifications can be far more powerful than the effects of crafting as it stands in the CoCo. And neither table top interpretation is favored by the core rules. Both are equally valid. Personally I'd probably be in the two XP track camp. The ECL determining XP and the actual xp (ecl xp minus spell xp costs and crafting xp costs. Forget about subtracting gp for xp spells). But I can see the arguments for both sides.
Hirumajoe 11-05-06, 02:52 PM	I'm not suggesting that the crafting feats need to be changed, but the easiest way to change them would be to change the amount of raw materials needed. If a 50% discount on magic items is "too powerful" relative to the cost of 1 feat, and a 1% discount is "too weak", then it would be easy to create a house rule to require 75% of the market price in raw materials instead (for instance). Or if a 25% discount is still "too weak", then there must be some equilibrium point between 1% and 50% where crafting feats are still worth it to some players, but they're not a no-brainer to everyone. That equilibrium point, according to the rules, would be at the 5gp per xp point level. Normally you pay 1/2 plus 1/25 in xp. So you'd be paying 1/2 plus 1/5 in gp, or 70%. Edit: Actually, I like this suggestion alot. Seconded.
SauroGrenom 11-05-06, 03:17 PM	I'm not suggesting that the crafting feats need to be changed, but the easiest way to change them would be to change the amount of raw materials needed. If a 50% discount on magic items is "too powerful" relative to the cost of 1 feat, and a 1% discount is "too weak", then it would be easy to create a house rule to require 75% of the market price in raw materials instead (for instance). Or if a 25% discount is still "too weak", then there must be some equilibrium point between 1% and 50% where crafting feats are still worth it to some players, but they're not a no-brainer to everyone. We're avoiding making new rules. As has been said over and over again... we only make new rules when the existing ones are so broaken that the game is unplayable. We clearly don't have that serious of a problem here. Your home DM may be willing and able to house rule whatever you want, but that's not happening here.
hogarth 11-05-06, 04:16 PM	We're avoiding making new rules. As has been said over and over again... we only make new rules when the existing ones are so broaken that the game is unplayable. We clearly don't have that serious of a problem here. Your home DM may be willing and able to house rule whatever you want, but that's not happening here. Wait...so when you propose changing how many xp it takes to craft something, that's not a house rule. But when I propose changing how many gp it takes to craft something, that's a house rule? You don't say... ;) :P At any rate, the amount of raw materials required for crafting weapons and armor has been changed (to 1/2 from 1/3) to reflect the fact that there's no failure chance. So it's not like the Core Coliseum policy on crafting is immune to house ruling. Finally, I'm not sure that I agree that there's even a problem. I merely meant to point out that there is a more simple solution than tinkering with xp/gp ratios.
SauroGrenom 11-05-06, 08:53 PM	Wait...so when you propose changing how many xp it takes to craft something, that's not a house rule. But when I propose changing how many gp it takes to craft something, that's a house rule? You don't say... ;) :P It's one thing to ignore a section of the rules that has the opposite of the expected effect in our setting, it's another to make new rules all together. I shy away from the latter, and I consider the former less objectionable. Your suggestion may be reasonable and possibly even balanced from a particular persective, but that alone is not enough reason to modify core rules unless Cat decides it's the case.
malakaiunseen 11-05-06, 10:14 PM	Your suggestion may be reasonable and possibly even balanced from a particular persective, but that alone is not enough reason to modify core rules unless Cat decides it's the case. But we're not working from core rules here. These are already-tampered with rules, which is the problem in my mind. If it were core then anyone with way too much stuff relative to their level is likely to get robbed, or simply be pu up against higher CR because of their gear. Thats what needs to be done here. Personally I'd probably be in the two XP track camp. The ECL determining XP and the actual xp (ecl xp minus spell xp costs and crafting xp costs. Forget about subtracting gp for xp spells). This is not that complicated, it can be kept track of with the other list of past expenses, and only needs to be worried about by those wishing to craft magic items or cast XP costly spells. Even if it is a little more complicated, then that is just a metagame cost for getting your stuff at half price or casting a powerfull spell. An XP cost is there for a reason, it is supposed to be a bigger hindrance than just dishing out some gold. As I see it, we don't need to implement a house rule, so much as fix a broken one. Saying that XP doesnt work the same way in CoCo, so we'll just ignore it is a bad quick-fix. I think that charging higher amounts of gold(70-75%) would still help the situation as well, but I would prefer to see something done about XP costs for the CoCo...
TelinArtho 11-06-06, 11:44 AM	The Current and Actual Exp was tracked for a short time and if I recall correctly it was done away with because it was more complicated, harder to track and often didn't make any difference whatsoever. For instance, a scroll-caster can use up to 40xp in crafting scrolls each week as a free activity. If he sits out, it goes up to 280xp/week. However, most scroll-casters aren't going to have the ability to maintain the loss in money by using so many expendables. As a matter of fact, scroll-casters will be relatively powerful at the early ECLs, but the more expendables they use - the more restricted they will be later on in their careers (especially with a couple of losses). So in my opinion, this is really only an issue for the casters who regularly craft permanent magic items. How much of a difference does it make over the long term? Let's look at one of my higher level characters - Kraegin. Kraegin crafted 1480xp worth of items before the rules were changed to remove the exp loss from crafting items. Since that time, he's crafted 2 items - an item worth 2500gp (so would've been 100xp) and 25kgp (so would've been 1000xp) - for a grand total of 2580xp. Over that time he has saved a good deal of money in crafting his items, not only the 12.5k from the most recent item, but also of note is the 8250gp he saved from crafting his own armor. The biggest detractor to using the craft feats and skills to any large extent is the "cost" it has to a player. In order to get an ECL3 character up to ECL10 can be 40+ weeks if he's active during that entire time. In order to craft any item over 7kgp takes its toll quickly. Kraegin's ECL9, and he's been active for a total of 21 fights, 3 quests (9 weeks), and 13 weeks of crafting. Especially during a state of emergency, having an extra character active for several weeks without benefit is tough to "justify" - both in the CoCo and in a table-top game. I happen to have a wide array of characters to choose from and I run enough fights to keep my credit count high enough to manage it - but that is not all that commonplace. The crafting feats do give benefits - but I would not like to claim that it gives more benefit to a player than something that is readily usable in a combat. Leadership is a good example, so would something as simple as Deflect Arrows. The reason why they are frequently taken by the spellcasters of the forum has less to do with them being overwhelmingly good and more to do with them being the most reasonable feats to take as a spellcaster, unless you enjoy jacking up the SL of your spells with metamagic, or getting 1-3 points better on your Spell DCs for one or more schools of magic. Compare the item creation feats to the psionic equivalent ones in the Psionic SRD. Aside from the relative fewer items in the Psionic section, the main reason I see for people not taking them is because there are "better" selections to take for psions, psychic warriors, etc - Psionic Weapon, Overchannel - even Psionic Body or Psionic Talent sees much more use here than the item creation feats for psionic items. I disagree that it is a problem overall. There are few people who would actually find themselves at a lower ECL and the few that did would only likely see it for 1 fight - maybe 2 - and even then not likely until the higher ECLs.
hogarth 11-06-06, 12:26 PM	So in my opinion, this is really only an issue for the casters who regularly craft permanent magic items. That's funny. I had the opposite reaction -- "If this is a problem, then it's mainly a problem for crafters who create charged magic items." For instance, wizards and clerics can potentially double their expendables cap. For a more concrete example, I've been thinking of taking Craft Dorje for my character Kilpquabjeg. She'll probably craft a dorje of Energy Bolt (which would be unfeasible without the 50% discount). She use it for blasting (in case she runs out of power points) and then when I decide it's not useful any longer (or not cost-effective) she'll sell it for what she paid for it (minus a few charges) and she'll invest that money in something else. So essentially she gets a valuable insurance policy (that doesn't count against her expendables cap) in exchange for sitting out a week crafting. Is it worth it? I guess it depends who you ask. Some people place a much higher value on permanent items, but when you consider that the average gladiator's career will never reach 50 fights, a wand/dorje is practically "permanent".
TelinArtho 11-06-06, 01:11 PM	Well for a wand or dorje it would very much depend on what the dorje is being used for to determine whether I would classify it as "permanent" or as an "expendable." For instance, the character who picks up a wand of Mage Armor (CL1) - that is more like a "permanent" magic item to me - since it is unlikely that it would be needed more than once per fight. By contrast the character who picks up a wand of Fireball (CL5) - this is more like an expendable. By that same extension - in my opinion - the person who is using the wand of fireballs multiple times per fight will find themselves in a deficit in comparison to like-leveled characters over time. I believe it was Sauro who at one point did a comparison of the money gain of a character from ECL3 to ECL x versus the starting money of an ECL x character and found the value to be pretty high (something like 9x%). A character who uses expendables and still loses fights on occasion will probably find themselves below this percentage by quite a bit. A winning character will have an easier time at it granted - but it is difficult to win every fight for any character.
hogarth 11-06-06, 04:36 PM	By that same extension - in my opinion - the person who is using the wand of fireballs multiple times per fight will find themselves in a deficit in comparison to like-leveled characters over time. I believe it was Sauro who at one point did a comparison of the money gain of a character from ECL3 to ECL x versus the starting money of an ECL x character and found the value to be pretty high (something like 9x%). A character who uses expendables and still loses fights on occasion will probably find themselves below this percentage by quite a bit. A winning character will have an easier time at it granted - but it is difficult to win every fight for any character. I agree that a character that relies only on wands/dorjes/scrolls/powerstones is going to fall behind sooner or later. My point is that a typical crafting character will probably rely on their natural casting abilities whenever possible, only drawing on their emergency fund when they've run out of renewable resources. Then if they want to buy a more permanent item, they just have to sell their expendables back for the original cost. Of course, if a player is only concerned about having the maximum amount of resources available, then the optimal strategy is to lose every fight and use craft/profession to make money. Then they'll be so rich at some point that they can go on a spending spree and start trashing bozos big-time! :monk:
Zelck 11-06-06, 10:35 PM	Am I allowed to accumulate free actions as a ghost to buy ethereal items? Say, can I use two free actions over two weeks within 1 3FC to buy a 2000 gp item?
SauroGrenom 11-07-06, 12:10 AM	I believe it was Sauro who at one point did a comparison of the money gain of a character from ECL3 to ECL x versus the starting money of an ECL x character and found the value to be pretty high (something like 9x%). If I recall correctly, I found that if you track winnings alone, you must retain 95% of your gp winnings to keep parity with new characters created at your ECL. If you also make money with a free action, that money if available to use however you should want. So the prudent player will simply spend expendibles worth a max of 5% loosers winnings and whatever money the character can make from a free action.
hogarth 11-07-06, 06:56 AM	If I recall correctly, I found that if you track winnings alone, you must retain 95% of your gp winnings to keep parity with new characters created at your ECL. If you also make money with a free action, that money if available to use however you should want. So the prudent player will simply spend expendibles worth a max of 5% loosers winnings and whatever money the character can make from a free action. And as I pointed out, the super-prudent player will just lose every single fight without expending anything! This may shock you, but some players wish to win lots of fights and consider it worth expending money to do so. :D
SauroGrenom 11-07-06, 08:45 AM	And as I pointed out, the super-prudent player will just lose every single fight without expending anything! This may shock you, but some players wish to win lots of fights and consider it worth expending money to do so. :D Sincerely the desire to win fights at any cost is not lost on me. One has only to witness the Harvester and the high number of expendibles used in every battle. My point (and Telin's if I understand correctly) is that there is a hidden cost to using too many expendibles. Your character falls behind in wealth. Those who "abuse" crafting scrolls and wands pay a price in future wealth. Continued use of even self crafted wands leads to eventual wealth handicap. That's just one more perspective where such crafted items are infact reasonably balanced as they are.
SauroGrenom 11-07-06, 08:46 AM	Am I allowed to accumulate free actions as a ghost to buy ethereal items? Say, can I use two free actions over two weeks within 1 3FC to buy a 2000 gp item? I think that is allowed. Much like how you can use two weeks of free actions to apply gather info to a single item.
Macbrea 11-07-06, 09:08 AM	According to the rules you can gain 1 item with a free action or 2 items with a full action. I don't think you are allowed to combine them to get 1 more expensive item. Otherwise it would be legal to do the following: Gaining 150 gp/gather Full Action: Aquiring Item of Ulitmate Cheese +10 (10,000gp) (1/34)
hogarth 11-07-06, 09:13 AM	I think that is allowed. Much like how you can use two weeks of free actions to apply gather info to a single item. You can only use one full three-fight cycle's worth (3 consecutive free activities) of Gather Info to get an item, according to the rules. MacBrea, Caterane changed the rules a while back to allow some accumulation of Gather Info (but not as much as in your example).
NiQil 11-07-06, 09:14 AM	According to the rules you can gain 1 item with a free action or 2 items with a full action. I don't think you are allowed to combine them to get 1 more expensive item. Otherwise it would be legal to do the following: Gaining 150 gp/gather Full Action: Aquiring Item of Ulitmate Cheese +10 (10,000gp) (1/34) Exactly what does this item of Ultimate Cheese +10 do? Create Pun Pun the Infinite? :P
Vathelokai 11-08-06, 05:52 AM	Alrighty... I've been thinking this one over for a while, and I think I've worked out a reasonable system. I don't want to distract from the current discussion in the council, so I bring it here. Custom Spell and Power Research Rules Researching a new spell or power is difficult and expensive. It requires credits, 1000 gp per spell or power level, and 1 week of research per spell or power level. As per CoCo house rule, psionic characters spend 1000 gp instead of the 200 xp they would normaly pay. Researched spells and powers are always subject to elder review. Procedure First you must propose the spell or power you wish to research in the Ask an Elder thread. There the description will be reviewed and debated. You cannot research anything that has not been approved by the elders. If you want to research a spell that other people have already researched, you can skip this phase and link an example in your blackmarket post. Once the spell or power is approved, you must spend credits to aquire the spell. Spells and powers based on other spells and powers from the SRD cost 5 credits. Spells and powers from non core sources or completely invented by you cost 10 credits. This must be posted and linked through the black market thread. Once you have your permits, use the same procedure outlined in the DMG for research. Researching Origional Spells If you decide to allow characters to develop origional spells, you can sue these guidelines to handle the situation. A spellcaster of any kind can create a new spell. The research to do this requires access to a well-stocked library, typically in a large city or metorpolis. Research requires an expenditure of 1,000 gp per week and takes one week per level of the spell. This money goes into fees, consultants, material component experimentation, and other miscellaneous expenditures. At the end of that time, the character makes a spellcraft check (DC 10 + spell lv.). If that roll succeeds, the character learns the new spell if her research produced a viable spell. If the roll fails, the character must go through the research process agian if she wants to keep trying. A viable spell is one that you allow into the game. Don't tell the player whether you think the spell is viable when research begins (that's the point of research). However, feel free to work with the player before the research begins and give him a guidance on the parameters under which the origional spell might be acceptabel in your game. Research to create new spells is always in addition to any other research involved for gaining spells that are already part of your campaign (if you decide to also require spell researh for the new spells that casters are entitled to as they attain higher levels). The number of spells that sorcerers and bards can know is stricly limited; members of those classes can never exceed these limits even through the research of original spells. You must be able to make the spellcraft or psicraft check by taking 10, and the DC is 10 plus the level of the power or spell. The character must expend 1000 gp per spell level at the begining of the research. The research is done as a full activity following the crafting rules of the Core Coliseum. Now that you have the new spell or power, you must put the full description of it on your character sheet in an sblock. When you prepare it, you must mark it as a researched variant in your spells prepared or powers known list. What can be researched Lesser Spells and Powers: Less powerful variants of a spell or power can be researched. The researched variant must be singifigantly less powerfull than the origional. Some examples: Greater Spells and Powers: Spells and powers can be researched that mimic spells from your list, but have been improved in some way. They can have increased damage, durration, range, etc. Other increases must be discussed, but many are covered by the meta variant section below. Altered spells and powers: Some spells and powers can be researched that stay at the same level, but have signifigant differences. For example, invisibility to undead could be researched and turned into invisibility to ooze or invisibility to fey. The power crystal shard could be researched to do bludgeoning or slashing damage instead of peircing. If the spell comes from a spell list other than your own, or is altered in a way similar to metamagic or metapsionics, they use the rules below instead. Meta Variants: Spells and powers can be researched that are permanantly effected by metamagic or metapsionic feats. The spell or power level of the new variant is whatever it would be if modifed by that particular feat. There is a minimum increase of 1 spell level or 2 power points (pertaining to things like metamagic energy substitution and metapsionic enlarge power). Additionally some spells and powers can be altered by non-meta feats like eschew materials and improved summon or by special class abilities like rapid summoning and contingent summons. Such variants have a minimum adjustment of 1 and possibly more. Some examples: Up for removal... Spells and powers from other lists: Spells from other casters lists can be researched. Powers can also be researched into spells. Likewise psionic research can create powers that replicate spells or powers from other lists. These variants always increase the level of the researched spell by 1, or the power point cost by 2. When you research such a variant, the choices that the spell offers are always fixed. For example, a druid wishes to research the psion power energy retort; the druid must pick one energy type for the retort and learn that version. When ever the druid casts the spell it remains that energy type. Powers researched as spells do not retain the ability to be augmented. Spells researched as powers do not gain the ability to be augmented. However, augmented versions of a power can be researched. For example, expansion can be augmented to increase size by two steps instead of one. This verison costs 7 pp. There is an additional cost of 2 pp for the research, which ends up as 9 pp and is equivilant to a 5th level spell. True customs: Entirely new spells and powers can be researched for a higher credit cost. These spells can come from any source, but must recieve a majority approval from the elders before they can be researched. Elders do not have to justify why they vote against a new spell or power. Elders also possess the right to revoke a spell or power if it proves unbalanced. The cost of research is refunded. What cannot be done You cannot research a spell to bypass a school specialization ban. You also cannot research a psion power of an equivilent discipline to a banned school. Clerics cannot research to bypass alignment restrictions. School Discipline Abjuration - Conjuration Psychoportation/Metacreativity Divination Clairsentience Enchantment Telepathy Evocation Psychokinesis Illusion - Necromancy - Transmutation Psychometabolism The school or discipline of a spell/power cannot be changed in general. You cannot research variants that give a different type of bonus. For example, you cannot research 4 types of fox's cunning with different bonus types so that they all stack. You cannot research a cantrip or a spell above 9th level. You cannot activate a character with custom spells at start. You cannot purchase scrolls, potions, stones or tattoos with a custom spell or power. You can craft expendables of your own with the spells, but they are not on the market, even with credits. You cannot exceed your max powers or spells known by research. You can choose not to learn a new power or spell when gaining a new level and immediately research a custom variant to fill that slot. You can also research a spell or power that will be exchanged with one of your known powers or spells when you level. Wizards that gain new spells when they level cannot choose the new spell to be a researched variant. You cannot research a spell or power you cannot cast yet. NPCs and allies cannot research, though a cohort or something similiar could use a PC's spellbook. No one except bards and divine casters can learn conjuration[heal] spells. Possible complications Magic item crafting: This allows some possible abuse from magic items. There are a few responses that I can see to this So what; they paid the credits, and the spell was expensive in the first place. These items should cost more, either by gp or credits Researched psionic shield is not the same as the shield spell, so it cannot be used to make a brooch of shielding, period. This is a house rule: Not really. It's taken from the DMG. This is just a rule structure to use it in this environment. This isn't anymore a house rule than using the new item creation rules. Super Wizards!: It is a possibility that a wizard could abuse this system, but consider the following: a regular spell in a book costs 150 gp per level. A custom spell costs 1000 gp per level, and the credit cost on top. One caster or manifester might pick 2 or three low level things to research, but the cost is very prohibitive. Secondly, there is an increased spell level; a wizard that learns call lightning has to learn it in a 4th lv. slot. A psion that learns ghoul touch has to spend 5 pp to manifest it. Unless a whole build rotates around the researched spell/power, it won't unbalance anything; it might even hold them back. Another possibility: require a MQ to gain the spell. Since MQ are already capped, it would put a maximum on the number of such spells/powers that can be learned. Psion Disciplines irrelevant?: Possible, but there can be other reasons to take one discipline over another. If need be discipline only powers can be restricted in the same way banned school and cleric alignment spells are restricted. Classic spells: Some spells are considered the sacred property of one class. Cleric healing and any spell with 'faith' or 'righteous' in the title. Wizard shield and black tentacles. Druid produce flame and summon nature ally. The list is long and depends on who is making the list. We could ignore this (except the flat bann on heal spells) and say anything goes. We could make broad guidelines (something like 'cleric spells with religious sounding titles are banned). We could have a list of banned spells and powers. Of course, I vote the first option. Prestige Classes: Some prestige classes, most notably thaumaturgist, require specific spells to get into the class. Use of custom research could allow a wizard or druid to take thaumaturgist. I don't see a problem, but it's debateable. I'm wondering what the public reaction is, and if this can become a CoCo rule. I'm willing to change it around to make it even harder or more costly; I just think it should go from the DMG to CoCo.
Abyssal Stalker 11-08-06, 07:07 AM	Without more careful reading, I like it. Things like this are part of the core rules. The fact that they leave a lot to DM consideration doesn't make them non-core or house rules. We just need a CoCo mechanics and here we have something that at least looks like a well-thought suggestion for such mechanics.
hogarth 11-08-06, 07:29 AM	With regards to spell research, I guess there are two philosophical points of view towards adding new rules: 1) The Core Coliseum should use a set of rules that are likely to be accepted in the vast majority of campaigns, so optional rules (like gunpowder weapons and spell research) should be discouraged. 2) The Core Coliseum should use a set of rules that includes everything in the PHB+MM+DMG+SRD+Psionic SRD+Divine SRD+UA open content, so optional rules should be encouraged. It certainly seems like #2 is the prevailing philosophy, so spell research fits in. My only comments are 1) I'd recommend a flat fee of 10 credits for all researched spells; 5 seems too low to me. YMMV. 2) The rules for researching psionic powers imply that a psion can add all the new powers they wish to as long as they have the money to do so. Some people interpret the psion's "Powers Known" as a hard limit, however.
Guildmaster (TAO) 11-08-06, 07:47 AM	2) The rules for researching psionic powers imply that a psion can add all the new powers they wish to as long as they have the money to do so. Some people interpret the psion's "Powers Known" as a hard limit, however. The powers known list is a hard limit, just like sorcerer and bard spells known. I thought I put that in, but I guess I missed it. Thanks for the quick feedback. *EDIT* Found it; I mention the cap on the psi powers in the 'what cannot be done' list.
Zevox 11-08-06, 08:02 AM	Thats actually been something thats been sitting around the rules thread for a while now (see the NPC services section), so I'm guessing Cat intended to put it in eventually. I don't have time to look at the specifics of the proposal in detail, but I like the idea of adding an option to research new spells. Zevox
hogarth 11-08-06, 08:34 AM	The powers known list is a hard limit, just like sorcerer and bard spells known. I thought I put that in, but I guess I missed it. Thanks for the quick feedback. My quibble with that is that you're making up a rule that doesn't exist in the SRD. Nowhere does it say that a psion's "powers known" is a hard limit. In fact, there's already an established way of expanding a psion's powers known (Expanded Knowledge). If we wish to create a CoCo house rule (something that I generally dislike) that psions must have an "open slot" for a known power (which is not allowed by the rules, AFAIK) before they can research, it should be clearly indicated as such. By the way, you forgot the most persuasive reason this option should be added -- using credits to allow spell research will increase the number of pitlords we have. What with the huge influx of pitlords pouring in due to the addition of Unearthed Arcana material, we should have this State of Emergency licked in no time! ;) By the way, I think this belongs in the Council thread since it's ultimately Cat's decision.
Zelck 11-08-06, 10:32 AM	My quibble with that is that you're making up a rule that doesn't exist in the SRD. Nowhere does it say that a psion's "powers known" is a hard limit. In fact, there's already an established way of expanding a psion's powers known (Expanded Knowledge). If we wish to create a CoCo house rule (something that I generally dislike) that psions must have an "open slot" for a known power (which is not allowed by the rules, AFAIK) before they can research, it should be clearly indicated as such. We should most definitely NOT allow psions to spend credits to exceed the number of powers known per level. That's a HUGE advantage and could turn potential new players away when they think they have to get credits to compete. I'd be very hesitant to allow spell and power research in the first place. Not only would it threaten the uniqueness of magic and psionics (the first power on my list to research later on would be Psionic Disjunction, and it's not to hard to imagine a Psionic Invisibility), but it also threatens the drawbacks of specialization (oh, well, my Kineticist will just develop a fourth level power in Psychometabolism that gives him a 60' fly speed (good) with a duration of 1 round/level that requires 1 standard action to manifest...).
hogarth 11-08-06, 10:38 AM	We should most definitely NOT allow psions to spend credits to exceed the number of powers known per level. That's a HUGE advantage and could turn potential new players away when they think they have to get credits to compete. Note that it's pretty expensive, though -- (1000 x power level) gp. You couldn't abuse it too many times without going broke. Ultimately, it would be exchanging one rare quantity (gold) for another rare quantity (a feat for Expanded Knowledge). I don't have any objections with disallowing it, but I just want it to be made clear that this would be creating a rule that doesn't exist in the SRD. I'd be very hesitant to allow spell and power research in the first place. I very much dislike the idea of spell research as well, but it seems to fall into the "use every single optional rule in the SRD" philosophy that seems to dominate here. Ultimately it's a matter of personal taste; you can't please everyone.
TelinArtho 11-08-06, 10:47 AM	Rather than completely copy what has been said in the FotW thread regarding this, we need the rest of the Elders to come to a vote. As far as I can tell, both readings (mine and NiQil's) are valid - because the letter of the rules is contradictory. At the moment, I think we just need Sauro and Pittbull to make their positions known on the matter. Telin - Mounted Combat treats the roll as a new AC. A natural 20 is still a natural 20 - and so no matter what the new AC is - it would auto-hit. NiQil - Mounted Combat treats the roll as a roll to negate if the roll is higher than the Attack roll - no matter what the attack roll is (even a natural 20). Both ideas could be supported by the rules - depending on which line you take as "fact." So far: Sauro: Sides with NiQil MWB: Sides with Telin Pittbull: For ease of reference here's the text of the feat in question: MOUNTED COMBAT [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Ride 1 rank. Benefit: Once per round when your mount is hit in combat, you may attempt a Ride check (as a reaction) to negate the hit. The hit is negated if your Ride check result is greater than the opponent’s attack roll. (Essentially, the Ride check result becomes the mount’s Armor Class if it’s higher than the mount’s regular AC.) Special: A fighter may select Mounted Combat as one of his fighter bonus feats. (bolding to emphasize the two lines that are contradictory) Pittbull and Sauro - please place your bets accordingly.
MindWandererB 11-08-06, 12:25 PM	I have to say that I disagree with spell research as well. Using novel spells isn't all that different from using novel feats, classes, races.... in a TT game it's okay, because the DM can approve or disapprove of anything they like, from any book or homebrew. Here, I really don't think it's appropriate. It also potentially adds a lot of power to a character. Psionic See Invisibility? Divine Vigor (or better yet, arcane)? No, I don't think so. And these are simple enough that I think they'd get approval.
Gonbow 11-08-06, 02:13 PM	Spell Research Worst Case Scenario: Diffusion of spells causes uniqueness of individual classes and their capabilities to be determined soley by non-spell list related functions. Best Case Scenario: Balanced non-core additions to spell lists can be included in CoCo on a case by case basis. The worst case scenario is I think, a unwarrented fear. I hope everyone is familiar with the term 'bench-level spell'. If your not, I'll summarize it briefly by saying that a bench-level spell is a spell that represents the most efficient execution of a utility at a certain spell level for a certain class. (Fireball is the bench-level damage spell at 3rd level for most Arcane classes for instance) Magic missile is above bench-level for a 1st level arcane spell. (Many advantages over every single other damage-output spell at the same level) Erase is slightly below bench-level for a 1st level arcane spell. (Cantrip-type effect, very specific) Protection from Evil is at or slightly above bench-level for a 1st level divine spell. (Wide range of extremely useful effects) Cure Light Wounds is at or slightly above bench-level for a 1st level divine spell. (Has potential to completely heal most low-level characters with one casting) Vigor is above bench-level for a 1st level power. (Capable of doubling or near doubling the HPs of the caster) Ecto Protection is below bench-level for a 1st level power. (Protective spell that can protect only a very small sub-set of individuals against an even smaller sub-set of attacks; and not even a significant one at that!) And what is my point? Simply this, researched spells should not be allowed to be at or above bench-level for their spell level. This is fairly common sense. So for a Divine Vigor to be made, it would have to be below bench-level for it's spell level. 5 hp per caster level is an extremely scalable effect and strictly superior to Aid. The closest bench-level spell I can compare it to is Heal (Full health restore vs doubling of HPs), which it is still better than. Divine Vigor would thus be balanced as a 7th or 8th level Divine spell at least. Good luck breaking that. Spell research is an open process that requires approval and linking. The chances of it getting broken are about as likely as the chances of custom items getting broken. Pretty low, in my experience. And the possibility of the best case scenario outways the risks.. I just hope some Elders can understand and perhaps agree with my point of view.
SauroGrenom 11-08-06, 03:04 PM	Telin, At first I'm drawn to thinking of the mounted combat roll as an armor class. This is what I used in the battle. But then I think about what type of AC the feat grants (nearly all AC bonuses have a type). Some kinds of attacks ignore varios kinds of AC. Incorpreal attacks or touch attacks are good examples of things that ignore AC of various kinds (incorporeal or touch). If the feat gives a mount an unamed AC bonus, it's seriously overpowered (consider the gp price of a piece of equipment that gives an AC of the average ride check result). So I'm inclined to feel that the hit is infact negated by a skill check of sufficient level. I think the mention of AC is to serve as a reminder of the mechanism of resolving the game mechanic. For example if the attack roll is a 23, the skill check must exceed that roll and meet a DC of 24 not a DC of 23. Since the skill check must exceed the attack roll, and the attack roll would hit an AC of 23 but not 24, the comparson is helpfull for making the mechanic easily understood. So I believe the skill and feat actually negate the attack compleately.
TelinArtho 11-08-06, 03:23 PM	For example if the attack roll is a 23, the skill check must exceed that roll and meet a DC of 24 not a DC of 23. Since the skill check must exceed the attack roll, and the attack roll would hit an AC of 23 but not 24, the comparson is helpfull for making the mechanic easily understood. I completely understand your argument (and NiQil's for that matter), however, I happen to think the inclusion of the AC statement indicates how to resolve it as an attack roll (where the AC obviously has to exceed the attack roll), and therefore the natural 20 (which hits any AC - regardless of whether it is AC6 or AC106) - cannot be avoided. If your opinion is in NiQil's camp though - I guess we'll just have to wait for Pittbull to speak up as the tie-breaker.
Vathelokai 11-08-06, 04:31 PM	As for spell research, the idea behind raising the SL/PL of anything researched was my solution for combating difusion and dilution of the spell lists. I also put a note in about banning 'signiture spells' from research; like shield, vigor, shield of faith, etc. Like I said, i'm open to making it harder or more expensive to get it passed. Maybe a ban on researching 1st level spells/powers all together. As for the psion powers known, it takes a feat to exeed the list by 1. We shouldn't allow it to be bought. Even the magic items that simulate feats are usually x/day. As for ride/mounted combat; I'm in NiQil's camp, but it looks like this is down to an elder tie breaker anyway.
waywreth 11-08-06, 04:52 PM	I completely understand your argument (and NiQil's for that matter), however, I happen to think the inclusion of the AC statement indicates how to resolve it as an attack roll (where the AC obviously has to exceed the attack roll), and therefore the natural 20 (which hits any AC - regardless of whether it is AC6 or AC106) - cannot be avoided. If your opinion is in NiQil's camp though - I guess we'll just have to wait for Pittbull to speak up as the tie-breaker. Although I'm not an elder, I've been watching this discussion. I would have to agree with Telin - the Natural 20 hits (as always) but the confirmation of the hit is subject to beating the AC and ride check of the mounted combatant.
hogarth 11-08-06, 04:59 PM	As for the psion powers known, it takes a feat to exeed the list by 1. We shouldn't allow it to be bought. Even the magic items that simulate feats are usually x/day. Let me try rephrasing that argument a bit differently: As for adding cleric spells to a wizard's spell list, it usually takes a non-Core feat or prestige class. We shouldn't allow it to be bought. Even magic items that allow a wizard to cast cleric spells (like a Ring of Spell Storing) are usually limited in uses. I think that's a good argument to disallow spell research altogether.
Vathelokai 11-08-06, 11:17 PM	Something else I noticed: the extra hp from vigor is limited by augmentation. In my proposal powers converted to spells cannot be augmented. I do see your point hogarth. I just disagree. But then I don't make the rules around here anyway.:)
malakaiunseen 11-09-06, 01:02 AM	Well, it looks like my complaint about crafting has been levt alone. I can now see why noones really bothered to do anything more about it, although I would still be for upping the cost of crafted items to 70%gp to compensate for the lack of XP cost. I also have a n00b question... Where can I find rules regarding surrenders?
SauroGrenom 11-09-06, 01:13 AM	There are no rules about surrenders. If the fight is futile for one combatant, then a surrender is usually allowed. You can usually justify this by mentioning excessive resource expenditure on an inevitable loss. But in the arena surrender is equivalent to death, so charm effects typicially don't work to force a surrender. Also some players include instructions on the character sheet to never surrender under any circumstances. If that's the case you cannot.
malakaiunseen 11-09-06, 01:20 AM	Then whats the point of surrendering? What benefit?
SauroGrenom 11-09-06, 01:44 AM	Most often you surrender if the battle is an inevitable loss, and you don't want to use expendibles like potions and scrolls or even memorized spells. Save them for the next battle in the cycle where you could have a chance.
Abyssal Stalker 11-09-06, 01:45 AM	The benefit goes to the pitlord, and that way to everybody around here. There is no sense running a fight where the other combatant has lost all his chances to victory. It just wastes resources, not only the resources of the combatants, but most of all the fuel that keeps CoCo running - the pitlords. Keep the active pitlords happy and we can all play a really cool game here.
malakaiunseen 11-09-06, 02:00 AM	:D OK, I can defiantely see that it would be of benefit as far as the pitlors are concerned. I was just wondering if it had any concrete rules vis a vis the three fight cycle. Thanks guys.
Vathelokai 11-09-06, 04:13 AM	Ok, I've had a shift at work to think about the spell research proposal. The only complaint that it has recieved is researching spells from other class spell lists. What if that chunk were removed, but the rest remained? This allows the best of it (custom spells, permenant meta spells, lesser and greater spells) and removes the worst of it (psi shield, psi see invis, divine vigor, etc.). What say the public?
Zelck 11-09-06, 09:47 AM	Well, there's also the issue of... Greater Transparency Transmutation Level: Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 4, Trickery 4 Components: V, S, M/DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal or touch Target: You or a creature or object weighing no more than 100 lb./level Duration: 1 round/level (D) Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) or Will negates (harmless, object) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) or Yes (harmless, object) The creature or object touched becomes totally transparent to light, effectively becoming invisible. If the recipient is a creature carrying gear, that vanishes, too. If you cast the spell on someone else, neither you nor your allies can see the subject, unless you can normally see invisible things or you employ magic to do so. Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible; items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature. Light, however, can never become transparent, although a source of light can become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source). Any part of an item that the subject carries but that extends more than 10 feet from it becomes visible. Of course, the subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable (such as stepping in a puddle). Transparency can be made permanent (on objects only) with a permanency spell. Arcane Material Component An eyelash encased in a bit of gum arabic. Transmuter: "Omg lol I banned Illusion haha gg kthnx suckers!11!1oneone!" ;) Even if we disallow such a blatant copy-paste, I'm sure someone can think of a spell that functions almost like iconic spells even though it has different text. Not to mention someone may create a broken spells and we allow it by accident..
hogarth 11-09-06, 09:54 AM	Ok, I've had a shift at work to think about the spell research proposal. The only complaint that it has recieved is researching spells from other class spell lists. What if that chunk were removed, but the rest remained? This allows the best of it (custom spells, permenant meta spells, lesser and greater spells) and removes the worst of it (psi shield, psi see invis, divine vigor, etc.). What say the public? From a personal standpoint, I don't think it'll be overpowered (since everything will require approval on a case-by-case basis) -- I just don't like adding rules that require Caterane's personal thumbs-up or thumbs-down. That's not because I think he has poor judgment in what he approves, but just because every custom spell or custom item that gets approved is essentially a new house rule that has been added and the "Core Coliseum" takes one more step away from standardization. MindWandererB said it very succinctly -- in a tabletop game it's O.K. (because the DM can make all the rules she likes) but it doesn't seem appropriate here. Of course, we already have custom magic items; once that precedent was set, it was probably just a matter of time before we had custom spells, custom bloodlines, and who knows what else.
malakaiunseen 11-09-06, 10:05 AM	Custom spells? We playing in a 'mostly Core' Coliseum now? *feels blood draining from body* "You're loosing him!"
Vathelokai 11-09-06, 10:42 AM	Even if we disallow such a blatant copy-paste, I'm sure someone can think of a spell that functions almost like iconic spells even though it has different text. Not to mention someone may create a broken spells and we allow it by accident..Well, I did specificly cover that in my post, but since we're arguing about custom spells instead of my proposal that dosn't matter too much, eh? :rolleyes: From a personal standpoint, I don't think it'll be overpowered (since everything will require approval on a case-by-case basis) -- I just don't like adding rules that require Caterane's personal thumbs-up or thumbs-down. That's not because I think he has poor judgment in what he approves, but just because every custom spell or custom item that gets approved is essentially a new house rule that has been added and the "Core Coliseum" takes one more step away from standardization. MindWandererB said it very succinctly -- in a tabletop game it's O.K. (because the DM can make all the rules she likes) but it doesn't seem appropriate here. Of course, we already have custom magic items; once that precedent was set, it was probably just a matter of time before we had custom spells, custom bloodlines, and who knows what else.It really requires elder thumb up/down, but that's moot. I disagree that every new custom thingy is a new house rule; it is a step away from the base rules, but they made guidelines in the DMG for stepping away from the base rules. That's why we have custom items in the first place (and have had them since day 1). Custom spells? We playing in a 'mostly Core' Coliseum now? *feels blood draining from body* "You're loosing him!"Hate to break it too ya, but it's been the mostly core coliseum for a while now. Check out the prison rules 'clarifications' (1, and more specificly 2), or the house rules post of the rules thread. The core rules aren't perfect; not only are some things not written perfectly (OMG! NO!) but there is room for infinite variations. A custom spell is just as 'core' as any other thing that they say you can do in the DMG. Not to mention all the things that the elders and Cat have realized just wont work in our arena player vs. player environment.
Zelck 11-09-06, 10:59 AM	Well, I did specificly cover that in my post, but since we're arguing about custom spells instead of my proposal that dosn't matter too much, eh? :rolleyes: Well, no, I mean even if you disallow the creation of many spells, people can create ones that function similar to those, but perhaps don't do quite the same thing. I agree with Hogarth though, keeping track of all these new custom spells would be a nightmare.
mkill 11-09-06, 11:14 AM	New question: I guess it is somewhere in the thread but I didn't find it, so a link for an answer would be fine... How are wizard's spells known and spellbooks handled? Wizards do get to learn some spells for free each time they level. They can also buy scrolls and learn from them. But, how is the Spellcraft check to learn spells handled in CoCo? Also, there seemed to be no spellbook section in the character sheet, so I was wondering whether wizards had to keep track of learned spells at all. Also, can you steal a spellbook with the burglar action?
TelinArtho 11-09-06, 11:14 AM	Not that I want to detract from the question of the new spell possibilities - I don't want there to be too many posts before Pittbull gets a word in about the Mounted Combat question. (treat this post as a bump of that particular issue)
malakaiunseen 11-09-06, 11:16 AM	The core rules aren't perfect; not only are some things not written perfectly (OMG! NO!) but there is room for infinite variations. A custom spell is just as 'core' as any other thing that they say you can do in the DMG. Not to mention all the things that the elders and Cat have realized just wont work in our arena player vs. player environment. I appreciate this. But if you're going ot take that approach, why not allow a few more PrC's while you're at it? Scrap credit points costs for stuff that is not 'really core', and just make it 'mostly core' for anyone, rather than only those who have served their time so to speak. Cause it is clear that you guys still make the distinction between 'fully core' and 'mostly core'. There are a few extra PrC that would make a really nice addition to the CoCo, and making new PrC's is defiantely described in the DMG, so why not? Some of the new base classes would make CoCo a lot more fun too, and contend nicely with the psionic stuff around... Its all there for the making and using. If you want to say that 'the DMG says you can do it so its core" then there is practically no need for the distinction of 'core' and anything that a reasonable and balance-loving DM would allow in his own CoCo would be considered core. Otherwise we're not playing in a 'core' coliseum, we're all players in Cat's game with the elders as assisstant DMs...
TelinArtho 11-09-06, 11:34 AM	Otherwise we're not playing in a 'core' coliseum, we're all players in Cat's game with the elders as assisstant DMs... Well, the fact of the matter is that this statement is true. Although the Core Colliseum was once only a basic arena-style environment with very limited options, it now encompasses much more - some like it, others don't. However, while Cat is the main GM - everyone - even non-elders - have the opportunity to voice their opinion and try to effect change - by either rejecting new material, presenting new material or asking for changes to existing material. What we do use is what is available to us within reason. Using non-open source information is "mostly" not allowed here - but even there we make exceptions - the red wizard would be the perfect example of this. Adding new things takes a lot of time and conversation - and not everything is added. Vath is pursueing an agenda to add custom spells to the mix for a nominal credit cost. The credit cost is there so that custom spells a) don't become too common and b) have some amount of dedication to the balance of the CoCo. Credits open doors to options - but none of the options are necessary to be successful in the CoCo. While I use my credits frequently, I only do so in ways that make the game more like a table-top game to me. In any case, the fact is - if you see a PrC that you want to make (and I stress Make since you can't copy it verbatim from another source and post it, unless it is already open source) - you can petition to get it added. It would be a long fight, I am sure, but if you can prove that it is balanced and not a "must-have" PrC for all characters of that particular archetype - you might see it get added. Even if it was added though - it would still likely carry a credit cost. People in the community need to give back to the community - and not even close to the amount that they put in. If you only have one character active and never have a want for a custom item or anything - you are not taking much from the community. However, if 30 people do that - we would be in a severe shortage of pitlords. While I might be willing to pitlord "for free" - there are certainly those who only pitlord because they feel it is necessary for what they want to do. Given that we already have a shortage of pitlords - you should already see how careful we have to tread before we remove the only benefit of pitlording.
malakaiunseen 11-09-06, 11:56 AM	OK pardon me for being a n00b, but lemme get this straight. Most of WotC's books are not 'open source'? Only open source is allowed on the wizards forums? If so, why is one allowed to use that material in say, REAL Adventures forum? I appreciate that the need for pitlords is a driving factor in the CoCo, and I am very gratefull for those who do it. In fact I take my hats off to them, they are the bricks and mortar upon which teh whole city is built. What I am trying to establish is wether or not the CoCo is worth me devoting enough time and energy to make it worth my while playing here. It seems to be a lot of fun. I can understand that there will always be complicated rules questions coming up, but I don't see why, if anything is being deemed as core as it seems, a PrC wouldn't get added if it was reasonably accepted as being balanced or at least as balanced as the other PrC's in the DMG are and if one is willing to pay the 10 or so credit points needed to use it. Now I know you said it might get added, but lets be realistic about this. Do you really think that is likely to happen? I know I must come across very upstartish, and for that, please excuse me, but I am the kind of person who doesnt like to do things half-heartedly, and before I go rushing in investing my time as a DM(or pitlord) into learning the (sometimes convoluted) ropes of this place so that I can contribute towards the general betterment of Gladius, I am interested to know why some things in the CoCo are flexible, and others not. A lot of it seems very... arbitrary.
TheMagister 11-09-06, 12:14 PM	<moved to Tavern> TM
TelinArtho 11-09-06, 12:34 PM	New question: I guess it is somewhere in the thread but I didn't find it, so a link for an answer would be fine... How are wizard's spells known and spellbooks handled? Wizards do get to learn some spells for free each time they level. They can also buy scrolls and learn from them. But, how is the Spellcraft check to learn spells handled in CoCo? Also, there seemed to be no spellbook section in the character sheet, so I was wondering whether wizards had to keep track of learned spells at all. Also, can you steal a spellbook with the burglar action? There is a section in the standard character sheet for the spellbook. It is usually in a spoiler block though - and usually separate from the spells memorized - so it may not stand right out to you. Take another look. Wizards gains spells at each new level for free. Anything in addition to this must be paid for - either by buying a scroll and scribing it or using NPC services and scribing from one of their books. Scrolls would cost the regular amount for a scroll and would be used up in the scribing (so CLxSLx25gp). NPC services would cost 50gpxSL - so NPC services is cheaper from SL 2+. In addition to this cost, you have to pay for the materials to put it into the spellbook which is 100gp/page (and the # of pages is equal to the SL or 1 for 0 level spells) unless you have a blessed book (which is special!). You can only steal expendables with the burglar action, though even if that wasn't the case, the value of a spellbook is determined by the spells in it - so it would be unlikely that the thief would be able to steal something worth so much.
hogarth 11-09-06, 03:49 PM	Well, it looks like my complaint about crafting has been levt alone. I can now see why noones really bothered to do anything more about it, although I would still be for upping the cost of crafted items to 70%gp to compensate for the lack of XP cost. I agree it's a dead issue, but I was thinking about it and it struck me that if you substitute 5 gp for 1 xp (as is done in other places), you end up with a raw material cost of 50% + 5*(50%/25) = 60%. At least that would prevent crafting and selling with no loss. It would even be semi-supported by the Core rules.
Zelck 11-10-06, 10:41 AM	It's come up in a couple fights now, and I'd like to get a definitive answer for this. Can I "snipe" with Telekinesis? And if I can't, what happens when I cast it? Am I auto-spotted?
Zelck 11-10-06, 10:46 AM	I agree it's a dead issue, but I was thinking about it and it struck me that if you substitute 5 gp for 1 xp (as is done in other places), you end up with a raw material cost of 50% + 5*(50%/25) = 60%. At least that would prevent crafting and selling with no loss. It would even be semi-supported by the Core rules. Actually, the XP value is 1/25 of the BASE price. So it'd be 50%+5(100%/25)=70%, dead on with malakai's suggestion. And although I'm not an Elder, I have to second this suggestion. Right now, crafting feats give a huge power boost to Wizards and CoDZillas, who're good enough without this extra power. Boosting the cost could be nice. I'd argue it should be made retroactive since it's a permanent advantage (probably not as difficult to implement as you might think... just make people pay an extra 20% of base cost for their crafted items, and if they don't have enough gold, they can pay it from their winnings ASAP, or refund some items).
TelinArtho 11-10-06, 11:03 AM	I doubt that it would happen retroactively, as that would be a big change and I'm not sure that it would be whole-heartedly supported. As I said before, the wide-use of the crafting feats is less because they are overly powerful and more because there simple isn't that great of a feat selection for priests and wizards. Psionic characters rarely take them because there are other feats that are simply better. I will agree that the crafting characters save a lot of money in the long term if they focus on permanent items; those who craft expendables are merely limiting themselves in the long term if they aren't careful. But, in the end, if you want to see this change through - what are you going to do about Craft (weaponsmithing), craft (armorsmithing), craft (bowmaking) - non-casters already have a way of reducing costs to themselves as well. A self-crafted suit of adamantine plate saves the crafter 8k; a self-crafted adamantine weapon save 1500+gp. And these can usually be attained with anywhere from 5-10 skill points. I disagree that the crafter spellcasters are gaining too much advantage from the feats, since they don't get to benefit from more "offensive" feats by taking them. The advantage is there for anyone who chooses to focus on it - but it is not an advantage that doesn't come with other penalties.
hogarth 11-10-06, 11:12 AM	I will agree that the crafting characters save a lot of money in the long term if they focus on permanent items; those who craft expendables are merely limiting themselves in the long term if they aren't careful. While this is true, it's only part of the story. Would you argue that we should remove the expendables cap too, because people who would exceed the cap "are merely limiting themselves in the long term"? Short term balance is also a consideration (probably a bigger consideration, since only a small fraction of characters reach the higher levels where this would be a concern). At any rate, in my opinion this discussion falls squarely under "Interesting idea. Not going to happen."
TelinArtho 11-10-06, 11:15 AM	Well, since you asked - yes I feel that the expendables cap is not really necessary. Those who decked themselves out with scrolls and other expendables would frequently be off to a flying start - but would peter off over time. And success with unlimited expendables (well - limited by your total gold - not an orchestrated maximum) is not even guaranteed - as there are many who did just fine under the environment before that cap was introduced.
malakaiunseen 11-10-06, 12:00 PM	At any rate, in my opinion this discussion falls squarely under "Interesting idea. Not going to happen." Why is that exactly? I feel the same way myself, but I am curious to define what it is that tells us that nothing will be done despite the inbalance. I will agree that the crafting characters save a lot of money in the long term if they focus on permanent items This is the crux of the argument. And even those who focus on expendables have double the limit correct? This in itself is a big advantage. But, in the end, if you want to see this change through - what are you going to do about Craft (weaponsmithing), craft (armorsmithing), craft (bowmaking) - non-casters already have a way of reducing costs to themselves as well. Um? These dont usually cost XP or have any intrinsic CL required other than a DC. Therefore they should not be affected. The extra cost would be explicitly to deal with the XP that is currently not being charged for magiccly crafted items... I doubt that it would happen retroactively, as that would be a big change and I'm not sure that it would be whole-heartedly supported. I am inclined to say that there is no need for it to be inforced retroactively, but if it isnt, then the imbalancing effects could live on a long time anyway. So it would probably still be a better idea. Saying that there simply arent any other decent feats available to wizards and clerics is a bit rough on teh metamagic department, and is of no intrinsic value as an argument to make magic crafting cheaper. It is a very subjective oppinion and cheap crafted items doesnt solve the problem, but create a new one. CoCo will be more balanced with the XP cost payed as GP if nothing else...
Zelck 11-10-06, 12:26 PM	Actually, the reason Psionic characters don't take crafting feats is because a) they have limited power lists and b) the selection of psionic items is really awful. If Andurwin had greater power selection and could craft anything in the Wondrous Items list, he'd have Craft Wondrous Items without a second thought. Halving the cost of most of your items is extremely powerful. Not only does it mean you get more items, you also get expensive items 1 or 2 levels sooner. That's a HUGE advantage. If we up the cost of crafting (and IMO we should), we should also make it retroactive. It's a hassle, but otherwise people who crafted before hand would have a pretty sizable advantage. We can ignore previously used crafted expendables if that'd be too much, but we can at least charge them for the stuff they currently have.
TelinArtho 11-10-06, 12:33 PM	Um? These dont usually cost XP or have any intrinsic CL required other than a DC. Therefore they should not be affected. The extra cost would be explicitly to deal with the XP that is currently not being charged for magiccly crafted items... Well, crafting armor and weapons usually take a very long time in game - so the "xp" loss is the fact that they need to take weeks or even months off in game in order to craft something. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your argument though: You have no problem with a character spending 6 skill points, with a crafting tool and a dwarven race or a +2 int bonus saving 8250gp on a suit of Adamantine Full Plate but you do have a problem with a character spending 1 feat saving 8000gp on a Periapt of Wisdom +4? And the only reason why you have a problem with the latter is because they didn't "spend" the xp they should have? (which is 640xp) If your argument hinges on the caster needing to "spend" that 640 exp in gold (working out to be 3200gp), I don't see why the non-magic item crafter gets a free ride. Saying that there simply arent any other decent feats available to wizards and clerics is a bit rough on teh metamagic department, and is of no intrinsic value as an argument to make magic crafting cheaper. It is a very subjective oppinion and cheap crafted items doesnt solve the problem, but create a new one. CoCo will be more balanced with the XP cost payed as GP if nothing else... Well, everything I say would be in my opinion - but I should have made it clear (I thought I did in my previous post) that I feel that wizards specifically have a lack of "good" feats to take. Metamagic is good and all - but the increased Spell Level that many take are not so tasty. Spell Focus is nice - but one feat for +1 DC isn't all that nice. Spell Penetration is useful - but there's not much in the arena with SR of any decent quality. And Spell Mastery in the arena is all but useless. Clerics do have other options - I admit - with the Divine SRD or if they want to take combat style feats - but most of these aren't "reasonable" options for a pure caster. This however is a moot point and not part of the argument.
TelinArtho 11-10-06, 12:52 PM	Actually, the reason Psionic characters don't take crafting feats is because a) they have limited power lists and b) the selection of psionic items is really awful. If Andurwin had greater power selection and could craft anything in the Wondrous Items list, he'd have Craft Wondrous Items without a second thought. Halving the cost of most of your items is extremely powerful. Not only does it mean you get more items, you also get expensive items 1 or 2 levels sooner. That's a HUGE advantage. If we up the cost of crafting (and IMO we should), we should also make it retroactive. It's a hassle, but otherwise people who crafted before hand would have a pretty sizable advantage. We can ignore previously used crafted expendables if that'd be too much, but we can at least charge them for the stuff they currently have. Okay - so the crafting casters have a sizeable advantage because of the cost. Let's take a look and compare if the theory shows true: ECL 10 Archangel Ixenthor - no feats - record: 6/1 Uhmentarymster the Old - Scribe Scroll, Craft Wondrous Items - record 20/3 Indri'ynar Per'Elereth - no feats - 16/5 Mer-man - no feats - 19/2 Lord Frost - no feats - 3/6 Laph Jeirehneen - no feats - 7/5 Barthleby - Scribe scroll, Craft Wondrous Items - record 19/3 Hagrid II - no feats - 17/11 Raskos, The Jade Father - Scribe scroll, Craft Wondrous Items - 6/5 Kracknol - no feats - 20/10 Vandelar the Red - Scribe Scroll - 17/9 Brilf Zephyr - no feats - 16/18 Leif Goldeneye - no feats - 21/4 Telveran Trueblade - no feats - 12/9 Sdentch - no feats - 10/12 Saffron Brass - no feats - 4/7 Gaston Dar'ath - no feats - 20/7 Archdevil Asran - no feats - 7/6 ECL 9 (just the ones with crafting feats) Anixx the Warbringer - Scribe Scroll, Craft Wondrous Items, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wands - 1/3 Aerryl Nalladar - Craft Wondrous Item - 17/9 Kraegin - Craft Wondrous Items - 7/14 Auburn - Scribe Scroll, Craft Wondrous Items - 10/9 Denshi - Scribe Scroll, Craft Wondrous Items, Craft Magic Arms and Armor - 0/5 If you can see a pattern there to indicate the overwhelming power of Crafting feats specifically - good luck - because I definitely don't. If you try to claim that Kraegin is overpowered because he has saved ~15kgp in exp - explain to me why his record is an astounding 7 wins and 14 losses. Or Auburn with a record of 10 and 9. Or Raskos with 6 and 5. If you want to claim that having crafting feat are extremely overpowered, explain why Gaston Dar'ath has a record of 20 wins and 7 losses. Or Mer-man with 19 wins and 2 losses. Or Leif with 21 wins and 4 losses.
Macbrea 11-10-06, 01:00 PM	Records are almost always impossible to tell. As people with many character get an oppurtunity to decide what they will and will not fight during a week. Example: I was going to activate Vladamir this week but noticed no other people were activated for 6th level. I switched Izumi to being active in a chance to get out of that horridly squeezed bracket on monsters! Silly me Cat threw me one of those 'Hah! I saw that.. well I always wanted to see what the Level 8 power character vs your level 6 warrior + an unknown monster!' kind of fight! So, Little Daisy vs Izumi & Unknown monster appeared... Foiled again!
TelinArtho 11-10-06, 01:13 PM	That argument makes no sense. You first say that you can't make a judgement on the success of a character because he can sometimes almost choose his opponent, but then the random fights do sometimes spit out interleague fights... Regardless, records are about the only thing we can use to compare relative success. Most of the ones with overwhelming successes are people whom I would call "master tacticians" (again - my opinion). Cat, Pittbull, Sunwolf - all have astounding records compared to most of the others around here - and that has little to do with the individual character.
Macbrea 11-10-06, 01:21 PM	No, my comment is some people pick and choose their fights based off what will be active. Yes, they are random, but if you wait long enough certian type characters will be your only choices. I was hoping being the only one active I would end up fighting a monster because it would pretty much be a win. That win counts same as any other win.
Zelck 11-10-06, 01:27 PM	One thing is as you get higher in levels, crafting feats should play a bigger role since the more gold you have, the more the feat will save. At lower levels, non-magic items will be a larger part of your expenses. At higher levels, magic items should take up much more. Craft Wondrous Items scales with level better than any other feat except Leadership. Anyway, I plugged in the numbers for levels 9 and 10, and after taking out the worst in each, noncrafters have a 1.728 win:loss ratio while crafters have a 1.76 ratio (if I leave them in, it's 1.45 vs 1.61). In just the level 10 bracket, noncrafters have a 1.728 win:loss ratio while crafters have a whopping 3.1 win:loss ratio. One thing to note is that this doesn't tell us very much because there are too many confounding variables. How much did the characters use their crafting feats? Who did they face? Maybe one player is a better pilot than another. Also, there're issues with class balance. So it's tough to look at win/loss ratio alone and say something about crafting feats. To measure the effect of crafting feats, let's try this. Build a level 10 character w/o crafting feats, then build it again switching the worst feat that character would have taken with Craft Wondrous Items. There should be a pretty big difference.
TheMagister 11-10-06, 01:35 PM	To measure the effect of crafting feats, let's try this. Build a level 10 character w/o crafting feats, then build it again switching the worst feat that character would have taken with Craft Wondrous Items. There should be a pretty big difference. I have a dumb-people (that's me) opinion on the above proof: When you build a character at 10th level vs. play a character from 1 to 10, you get a TOTALLY different character. When played from 1 to 10, characters tend to spend money on things that help them out right-now-right-now. When built at 10th, the player has the luxury of picking high-dollar items that perfectly round out his character because he has the big bank of GP just sitting there...begging to be spent...on power...{shiver} Just look at what (Who was it? Who owns Anixx?) that guy did with Anixx. He leveled him to 8 or 9 or something so that he'd have the RP enjoyment, and then (when power became really necessary) he just rebuilt him and outfitted him with super-gear. You just get a more powerful character. I WISH I had the credits to rebuild Sdentch at 10th level. She'd ROCK. Winged boots, Belt of Giant Strength, etc. But the climb up with her has left her with only one really good item (her shield) and about 250 gp liquidable (sigh). And she's unbelieveably weak for her ECL. :( My two cents, TM
TelinArtho 11-10-06, 01:38 PM	Well, the reason why I included ECL 9 and 10 is specifically because of the large number of "master tacticians" representing the ECL10 league. And if you look at it - you do see a consistent number. The fact of the matter is this should be something you can see over time. Creating two ECL10 characters wouldn't give you enough to base a decision on without more information. How, for instance, can you guage whether a Quicken spell feat is more useful than Craft Wondrous Items? I look at the records of the CoCo and I don't see the crafting as an issue.
Macbrea 11-10-06, 01:49 PM	I also don't see where it is a real problem. The builds that did really well near the beginning have had the rules changed to effect how they play. At one point, the person that spent the most expendables won the matches. Now, with a limit placed on those it results in the best tactician or guy with luckiest dice will win the match. Crafting doesn't seem to make you an instant winner, it just gives advantages at some points.
McJarvis 11-10-06, 02:22 PM	My 2 cents: (and only complaint about current crafting rules) I think that expendibles cap should always take into account the market price of the expendibles and not the craft-price.
hogarth 11-10-06, 02:32 PM	Why is that exactly? I feel the same way myself, but I am curious to define what it is that tells us that nothing will be done despite the inbalance. Not everyone believes there's an imbalance. Even if there is one, no one has abused the imbalance in an obvious way so far. My recommendation is this: if you think that crafting is eminently abusable, create a character that abuses the crafting system and get others to complain about her. For instance, some people were using the Forgery skill to bring in a large crowd of allies. Enough people had genuine (IMO) complaints about this that it was eliminated. In fact, that was part of my intent with one of the characters I created for the UnCon contest: Alois Molehusband. It would have been a simple matter for him to defeat any of the other contestants (because of the ridiculous nature of Dust of Sneezing and Choking). For better or for worse, no one cared for that character design, so I'll have to make my point in another way.
malakaiunseen 11-10-06, 11:55 PM	Well, apart from not really wanting to make and play a character just to prove an imbalance in the rules, it is a shame that people don't have the imagination to foresee what could be made without actually needing to have it done. Twisting the rules to find the biggest imbalance suddenly becomes the noble cause. I thoroughly agree that results alone cannot be used to tell us if the crafting feats are too imbalanced. That argument could probably used to say that most things are not imbalanced, just by virtue of it not yet being represented among the major winners. About the crafting for non casters and crafting for casters, well, for starters, obviously, non-casters cant make magic items. Thats a pretty big cap on what they can make, but also, as per core rules, it doesnt cost xp to do that. It is the XP that I think should be changed into a GP cost to balance things out a bit. If you think non-magical crafting needs to be tweaked as well(although I know you think [i]niether]/i] of them need tweaking), then I could see why, seeing as it should take longer...
TelinArtho 11-13-06, 11:26 AM	Well, I don't know why he didn't just post here about it - but Pittbull replied to the Mounted Combat question via email siding with the argument I had put forth. NiQil - please put the clarification into the appropriate prison post. Heck - and be thankful since that situation is better for your horsemen...
McJarvis 11-13-06, 12:02 PM	it is a shame that people don't have the imagination to foresee what could be made without actually needing to have it done.. I believe the motivating factor here is time. When I first joined CoCo over a year ago I sat down and thought of at least 6 different things that were "wrong" with the rules and unbalancing. None of them were addressed at that time..I believe because we have enough work on our plate worrying about the "now" without having to worry about the "could-be"'s. Addressing problems as they come up results in the same outcome-> and actually discourages people from trying to poke holes in the rules. If you think a certain idea will become too powerful merely because it is bending rules, then it will probably get nerfed quickly upon it's coming of power. Thus munchkin'ers have no place here. If they ever DO succeed, they immediately lose. And all their time/efforts are wasted.
TelinArtho 11-13-06, 12:19 PM	@malakai - the big problem I have with your argument is that you really haven't brought forward anything that shows to me that it is in fact unbalanced. More importantly, nothing that you have said proves to me that adding 20% more to the base cost of a magic item is going to make it balanced. While a few of you have come back and said that the records of gladiators does not accurately reflect how good/bad the build is - I want to stress that it is probably the best there is - because it is universally random for the whole lot. If someone who exclusively crafts had benefits as you seem to think they do - show me the proof. Of all the active characters in the CoCo, Kraegin has probably used the most crafting throughout his career - so he should theoretically have the biggest advantage. Has that earned him a Great Reknown record? No - he's sitting below 1000 on the powerrating scale. I am not the greatest tactician, but at the same time, if it gives as much benefit as you seem to indicate, then it should be easy for me to win - regardless of my tactics - I should have a crafted solution for everything. I do agree that crafting players have more freedom of money than characters who do not craft. That said - I don't think they have an undue advantage because of it - since they have to give up one or more feats to use them.
McJarvis 11-13-06, 12:43 PM	Issues that I'd rather clear up now. The Illustrated Man (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10257111&postcount=949) is a character that is more or less ready to go, but he will be a 25o investment for me. Naturally I want to make sure that everything works the way I think it does. 1) Since my sorcerer has an animal companion, I can share cast Enlarge Person with the animal companion despite the AC not being a humanoid, yes? 2) On what allies does the intimidate skill work? It does not specify non-class allies, but on the other hand I don't know what the CR of an animal companion is. I'm inclined to think it does not work on class allies. Which brings me to the next problem-> Does it work on all enemy non-class allies, or just 1 of your choosing? 3) Alterself: sharing with my animal companion. Can I do it? I feel like there was a ruling somewhere that you couldn't share alterself with familiars...what knowledge do I need for Alterself for say, trogladyte, for instace? 4) More of a confirmation: I can't get a custom feat on my horse even if I buy him then announce he's my animal companion, right? edit->
TelinArtho 11-13-06, 12:53 PM	1. See Faelto - she's been sharing Enlarge Person, and other spells with her Animal Companion for a while. Be sure to check out the Sharing Spells feature in the TAO for more specific items. 2. Not sure - I'll have to check later or defer to others' knowledge. 3. Definitely check out the feature in TAO about alter self - as that changes with each FAQ I think... 4. Correct - Animal Companion starting feats cannot be customized (though as they gain more HD - you get more feats).
McJarvis 11-13-06, 01:02 PM	3. Definitely check out the feature in TAO about alter self - as that changes with each FAQ I think... Do I need to have "knowledge" of the creature I Alterself into? I could have sworn I read a CoCo houserule about that at some point.
TelinArtho 11-13-06, 01:54 PM	Do I need to have "knowledge" of the creature I Alterself into? I could have sworn I read a CoCo houserule about that at some point. It is a CoCo houserule - look under polymorph if you need to. Essentially you need a bonus to the appropriate Knowledge skill equal to or greater than the HD of the creature you are changing into. EG: +4 Knowledge (Local) to change into a Troglodyte.
McJarvis 11-13-06, 02:03 PM	It is a CoCo houserule - look under polymorph if you need to. Essentially you need a bonus to the appropriate Knowledge skill equal to or greater than the HD of the creature you are changing into. EG: +4 Knowledge (Local) to change into a Troglodyte. You mean the ECL? Trog's only have 2 hd. edit- erm, I mean...."you mean twice the hd? 2hd x 2 = 4" :) Finally found it in the meta-rules... double edit-> See, this is what I was talking about...TAO says you can share cast Alter Self on you and your familiar, the meta rules say you can't. Glad I wasn't counting on turning my horsey into a dino ;) Do I need knowledge to buy an expendible that is specified before hand? My guy is a sorc and the knowledge thing really hurts sorcs alot...but if I didn't need knowledge to use the specified scroll that's cool.
TelinArtho 11-13-06, 02:16 PM	You mean the ECL? Trog's only have 2 hd. edit- erm, I mean...."you mean twice the hd? 2hd x 2 = 4" :) Finally found it in the meta-rules... double edit-> See, this is what I was talking about...TAO says you can share cast Alter Self on you and your familiar, the meta rules say you can't. Glad I wasn't counting on turning my horsey into a dino ;) Do I need knowledge to buy an expendible that is specified before hand? My guy is a sorc and the knowledge thing really hurts sorcs alot...but if I didn't need knowledge to use the specified scroll that's cool. Well the rules would override anything that's said in the TAO post - but I would send a PM to Cat and to Guildmaster (TAO) to get the rules consistent and clarified.
hogarth 11-13-06, 02:29 PM	2) On what allies does the intimidate skill work? It does not specify non-class allies, but on the other hand I don't know what the CR of an animal companion is. I'm inclined to think it does not work on class allies. Which brings me to the next problem-> Does it work on all enemy non-class allies, or just 1 of your choosing? It works on all of them, I believe. As a Free Activity, you can use your Intimidate skill to scare one or more allies of your opponent that have an intelligence of 3 or more. I believe the CR of an advanced animal companion would be the CR of the base animal plus 1 per 3 extra animal hit dice and a familiar's CR would be the base CR of the animal plus 1 per 3 [magical beast] hit dice. (Psicrystals can't be intimidated since they're immune to morale effects.) I would definitely recommend sending Cat an e-mail to get clarification, though.
Zevox 11-13-06, 03:21 PM	Do I need knowledge to buy an expendible that is specified before hand? My guy is a sorc and the knowledge thing really hurts sorcs alot...but if I didn't need knowledge to use the specified scroll that's cool. You don't need the knowledge skill to buy it, but you do need it to use such a scroll ;) . Sorry, but scrolls aren't exempt from the knowledge rule (most of the reason that rule is there is thanks to magic domain clerics, after all). Zevox
Krytos 11-13-06, 04:17 PM	Was a ruling ever made on the Mounted Combat issue? I may need that info for a fight I'm running.
TelinArtho 11-13-06, 04:48 PM	Yes - Pittbull spoke up in favor of the side I was supporting. That is: If the attacker rolls a natural 20 - that is an auto-hit regardless of the mounted combat roll. The confirm roll still must beat the mounted combat roll in order to confirm a critical.
Krytos 11-13-06, 05:14 PM	Thanks.
The_Mad_Linguist 11-13-06, 05:53 PM	Are you allowed to bring in portable traps (like trapped chests, for instance)?
SauroGrenom 11-13-06, 05:55 PM	I don't believe so. Besides, no opponent in their right mind would open such a chest. It's clearly listed on your character sheet.
Vathelokai 11-13-06, 06:00 PM	Well the rules would override anything that's said in the TAO post - but I would send a PM to Cat and to Guildmaster (TAO) to get the rules consistent and clarified. Sorry; havn't updated the share spells stuff at TAO since the new ruling went into effect. I'll get on that as part of my guild restructuring.
Vathelokai 11-13-06, 06:00 PM	I don't believe so. Besides, no opponent in their right mind would open such a chest. It's clearly listed on your character sheet. Bardic Suggestion!
The_Mad_Linguist 11-13-06, 06:16 PM	I don't believe so. Besides, no opponent in their right mind would open such a chest. It's clearly listed on your character sheet. I was thinking more like landmines. You can set the trap with a rather large trigger area, decent AOE, and delayed effects. Suggestion works too.
Zelck 11-13-06, 07:21 PM	Are you allowed to bring in portable traps (like trapped chests, for instance)? I'm not an elder, but allow me to weigh in on this. NO. ;) It really allows for some abuse, like a "touch" trigger trap that you telekinesis at people, or an automatic reset Cure Light Wounds "Trap" that the person constantly "trips" and thus suffers the "consequences" every round. Hey, it's good against Undead, right?
MindWandererB 11-13-06, 08:49 PM	Considering that custom traps have to be approved on a case-by-case basis, it shouldn't be a problem in theory. The unlimited-use, auto-resetting CLW trap has been suggested before, and there's just no way. As for a "touch" trap that you throw at someone... that's just a quagmire.
McJarvis 11-13-06, 09:16 PM	You don't need the knowledge skill to buy it, but you do need it to use such a scroll ;) . Sorry, but scrolls aren't exempt from the knowledge rule (most of the reason that rule is there is thanks to magic domain clerics, after all). Zevox Aw, Sorcs get no luvin here :( Any chance I can mini-quest to attain "familiarity" with specific creatures? Sorcs only get knowledge(arcana)...
Zevox 11-13-06, 09:22 PM	Aw, Sorcs get no luvin here :( Any chance I can mini-quest to attain "familiarity" with specific creatures? Sorcs only get knowledge(arcana)... Heh, I'm aware - I'm going to need to give Mithos a couple of cross-class ranks in Know (Local) for his altering. But no, no questing for it - that was one of the options proposed to limit it initially, but it was turned down because functionally its not a real limitation, since questing doesn't cost the character anything unless they fail and used expendables. You're gonna need to meet the prerequisites like everyone else to get that little chunk of arcane power ;) . Zevox
McJarvis 11-13-06, 09:56 PM	Heh, I'm aware - I'm going to need to give Mithos a couple of cross-class ranks in Know (Local) for his altering. But no, no questing for it - that was one of the options proposed to limit it initially, but it was turned down because functionally its not a real limitation, since questing doesn't cost the character anything unless they fail and used expendables. You're gonna need to meet the prerequisites like everyone else to get that little chunk of arcane power ;) . Zevox I'm suddenly glad my gladiator ideas no longer revolve around any single spell to boost my power all the way. I'll still spend the cross-class ranks & small amount of gp for custom magic skill item, but even if it wasn't possible this wouldn't break my plans. At least I can still dominate Table Top games when I play this guy & he shares enlarge person//alter self-> me and my horse into a large trogladyte riding a huge dire bat. ;)
Zelck 11-13-06, 11:19 PM	I think someone using regular rules figured out how to have a Druid and her animal companion turn into a Force Dragon riding a Force Dragon. That provided for much hilarity.
Abyssal Stalker 11-14-06, 08:07 AM	OK, I'm bringing this back on top because I wasn't left satisfied the last time when this was discussed. The lovely vampires and the lousy way their weaknesses are worded in the SRD. It goes like this: Repelling a Vampire: Vampires cannot tolerate the strong odor of garlic and will not enter an area laced with it. Similarly, they recoil from a mirror or a strongly presented holy symbol. These things don’t harm the vampire - they merely keep it at bay. A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from a creature holding the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against the creature holding the item for the rest of the encounter. Holding a vampire at bay takes a standard action. Vampires are also unable to cross running water, although they can be carried over it while resting in their coffins or aboard a ship. They are utterly unable to enter a home or other building unless invited in by someone with the authority to do so. They may freely enter public places, since these are by definition open to all. Then the questions: 1. - How is garlic supposed to work? Can everyone just state that I am wearing a garlic necklace and that's it, I'm immune to vampires? By my reading, there needs to be an area with a significant amount of garlic in order to keep the vampire at bay. Garlic: This is apparently an area effect. The garlic (not purchasable in core at all) must be applied to an area not a creature. The vamp cannot enter that area. This sounds reasonable to me. 2. - How repelling works? The character can take a standard action to recoil the vampire and the vampire must stay at least 5ft away. But what happens when the character puts the mirror/holy symbol away? The description says that the vampire can't attack the character for the rest of the encounter. Surely this can't mean that the vampire is completely unable to do anything to the character when he has stopped the repelling? This would lead into a situation where character A repels the vampire (a standard action), puts the holy symbol away (move action) and starts to beat the s out of the vampire and the vampire can do nothing for the rest of the fight. Mirror/Holy Symbol: These things will prevent a vamp from getting within 5'. They take a standard action to use them. The vamp is held at bay and recoiling so long as the item is presented. This means the vamp's actions are limited in some unspecified way. Also clearly the rules say the vamp is unable to attack the person using the mirror or holy symbol for the remainder of the encounter. Basicially an auto loss. I couldn't agree with Sauro here, so I answered: The repelling action isn't clear enough to be used just as written. Repelling a vampire is a standard action. That's clear. But it clearly says that holding the vampire at bay takes a standard action. This seems to me that the character presenting the symbol must use a standard action every turn. And it says that the character must hold the item - so it probably isn't enough to just leave it hanging from your neck or something like that. I get the idea that repelling a vampire is something you must keep doing in order to keep it effective. And what means "encounter"? Is it enough to break LoS? This wasn't ever replied. I had a discussion with Cat about vampire weaknesses and maps, and this thing also came into conversation: I think we already ruled that in the distant coco past that repelling is a standard action. That's what I would rule here too else you're immune to attacks from a vampire while you strike him down? No way. This sounds reasonable to me. Repelling should be something that must be done continuously to keep it in effect, I think. But what happens when it stops, that is the big question? 3. - What is the ruling of the water? There are two maps with water, forest and sewer. IMO the water in the sewer isn't running and it's at least questionable in the forest if the water qualifies for "running water". The water should be quite shallow in a swamp-like area. At least the central part of the map can't have any running water because there is a thick swamp with something growing in it. Running water: Several of our maps have water. The city map, the sewer map and the forest map have running water, and vamps will be unable to move through or over any water square on these maps. I couldn't believe that we have a map that doesn't allow characters to move out of their starting box (eg. Sewer), so I suggested to Cat that only the streams in the forest would count as "running". Cat responded to this: I'd even say they can fly over it but I have to think about it some more. I'll wait till someone plays a vampire before I add it. So basically my question is number 2. My suggestion is that repelling is a standard action that must be done every round in order to keep the vampire at bay. The map problem isn't that big and it is something that Cat needs to decide at some point.
Hirumajoe 11-15-06, 10:05 PM	Ok here's a couple of mount questions and/or abuses that I'd like cleared up? 1. If you're only a passanger on a mount and someone or something else is driving it, and you and the mount have different initiatives, if you go to make a ranged attack or cast a spell, do you suffer the mounted penalties for the mount's last action's movement? (i.e. single move, double move, run, etc) If the answer to 1 is no, you don't take penalties, then the rest of the questions are kinda moot. 2. If your initiative is before your driver and mounts, or if they choose to delay until after your initiative, can you take actions without penalty, and then have the mount burst into a full run? Since there's no previous round's action to base the motion penalty off of? 3. On the next round of the previous question (i.e. after you've standard acted, mount burst to run), could you delay your action until after your driver and mount's, who then choose not to move, and then take another set of actions at no movement penalty? 4. On the next round action question 2, could you delay your action for 2 points worth of initiative, then have your driver and mount choose to delay for 2 points worth of initiative, and then take another set of action at no movement penalty since the last action taken by the driver and mount was delay, which is obviously not a movement? And then have them go on to run after you've taken your action? Thanks for your consideration, Hirumajoe
MindWandererB 11-15-06, 10:18 PM	Hard questions. The following represent 100% judgment calls. 1) Yes. 2) Yes. The horse would be considered stationary while you act. 3) Yes. Again, the horse is politely waiting for you to do your thing before jostling you. 4) No. Delaying isn't actually an action. You would suffer the penalty for the mount's last actual action, unless it delayed for a whole round, in which case it basically did what you describe in #3.
Selena Ombrenoire 11-16-06, 12:22 AM	Here's a couple of questions I got my upcoming fight. My character, Dragonlily (ECL 4) is fighting an unknown monster in the sewer map. The only info I got about the monster(s) is "two swarms" 1) I think she will be fighting a locust swarm and a spider swarm since this is the only encounter in the ECL 4 list with 2 swarms. Can anyone confirm this ? 2) When a swarm uses it swarm attack, does it have to succeed on an attack roll ? 3) If I'm fighting "crawling swarms" (anything that doesn't fly), can they enter a "water square" (it's 1 feet deep) ? 4) Since some swarms are immune to weapon damage (which means I'm in big trouble), is there any torches or lanterns in the sewers ? 5) Would it be possible to use my spiked gauntlets to collect some acid from the center pool and to throw it at my enemies ? 6) Any other idea how I could damage my enemies ? Looks like Dragonlily is in deep trouble. Thanks for your answers. -Selena
MindWandererB 11-16-06, 12:36 AM	Here's a couple of questions I got my upcoming fight. My character, Dragonlily (ECL 4) is fighting an unknown monster in the sewer map. The only info I got about the monster(s) is "two swarms" 1) I think she will be fighting a locust swarm and a spider swarm since this is the only encounter in the ECL 4 list with 2 swarms. Can anyone confirm this ? 2) When a swarm uses it swarm attack, does it have to succeed on an attack roll ? 3) If I'm fighting "crawling swarms" (anything that doesn't fly), can they enter a "water square" (it's 1 feet deep) ? 4) Since some swarms are immune to weapon damage (which means I'm in big trouble), is there any torches or lanterns in the sewers ? 5) Would it be possible to use my spiked gauntlets to collect some acid from the center pool and to throw it at my enemies ? 6) Any other idea how I could damage my enemies ? Looks like Dragonlily is in deep trouble. Thanks for your answers. -Selena 1) Yup, sure looks like it. 2) No, it's automatic if you're in its space. 3) There's no rule about that. In the absence os such a rule, yes, they can. 4) Not unless you brought one. 5) Umm... that's a tough one. It would probably do more damage to you than to them. The spiked gauntlets wouldn't help much, because they'd not watertight. 6) Not really. Swarms are pretty rough, even for high-level characters. Packing a torch or lots of acid or alchy fire are pretty much the only ways for non-casters to deal.
Macbrea 11-16-06, 09:44 AM	I have a silly question that I would think should have been asked long ago. Question: What is the craft DC of a non-masterwork arrow? Long and shortbows are DC 12, Simple Melee weapons or thrown weapons are 12. Martial melee weapons are 15. I am not looking for a masterwork varient of the arrow. I simply want to make normal arrows.
TelinArtho 11-16-06, 11:05 AM	@MacBrea - there's two schools of thought about arrow making (that I usually see): 1. Make it the same DC as the launcher (DC12) 2. Make it the same DC as a martial weapon (DC15) It is probably safe to say DC12, and I would support that. I would not argue it to be more than 15 (and only DC20 when it is masterworked).
Macbrea 11-16-06, 11:16 AM	Hmm, I am currious if the bow should be easier to make then the arrow it shoots. In my case, I am trying to figure out when vladmir levels does he need to take 5 ranks craft bowmaking or 2. So, it actually might matter alittle bit what the elders decide on for arrows.
Vathelokai 11-16-06, 07:36 PM	Hmm, I am currious if the bow should be easier to make then the arrow it shoots. In my case, I am trying to figure out when vladmir levels does he need to take 5 ranks craft bowmaking or 2. So, it actually might matter alittle bit what the elders decide on for arrows. I can see it being harder to make a straight arrow that dosn't fall appart than making a bow; though I think the ammo should have the same DC as the launcher, e.g. DC 12.
McJarvis 11-16-06, 09:15 PM	The Battle Sorcerer gets one "proficiency with any light or one-handed martial weapon of the character's choice."....this choice can not be "Lance(Mounted only)", right? :-) Armor Spikes: What is the pricing detail on masterworking these? Seperate +300gp to the armor itself? They can be enchanted, so they must be masterworkable.
MindWandererB 11-16-06, 09:24 PM	The Battle Sorcerer gets one "proficiency with any light or one-handed martial weapon of the character's choice."....this choice can not be "Lance(Mounted only)", right? :-) Armor Spikes: What is the pricing detail on masterworking these? Seperate +300gp to the armor itself? They can be enchanted, so they must be masterworkable. 1) Uh, no, I really don't think so. 2) We sort of fudge the armor spikes by house rule here. They're considered a weapon seperate from the armor in all respects. So yes, it's an extra 300 gp, but the cost is to the spikes, not the armor. You can even remove them and put them on different armor. A policy with which I disagree, BTW, but that's been the rule.
DSugui 11-16-06, 09:48 PM	I have two (unrelated) questions: - Can I Use Blackmarket Connections as a Full Activity to get one item at double price instead of two items of standard price? - Does casting Spiritual Weapon break Invisibility? Effect: Magic weapon of force Would it be like a summoned creature, or is it considered that the caster is actually attacking?
Zevox 11-16-06, 10:28 PM	- Does casting Spiritual Weapon break Invisibility? Would it be like a summoned creature, or is it considered that the caster is actually attacking? The previous rulings I've seen on this here all say it will break invisibility/sanctuary/similar spells. Zevox
TheMagister 11-16-06, 11:53 PM	Since a Fell Shot arrow becomes a ranged touch attack, does that make it qualify as an "unusual ranged attack" and as such make it ineligible for deflection? What if the deflection is granted by a shield of arrow deflection? Ranged touch attacks ignore shields, right? TM
NiQil 11-17-06, 02:37 AM	Since a Fell Shot arrow becomes a ranged touch attack, does that make it qualify as an "unusual ranged attack" and as such make it ineligible for deflection? What if the deflection is granted by a shield of arrow deflection? Ranged touch attacks ignore shields, right? TM For the first...no, it does not qualify as an unusual ranged attack, in my opinion. I assume you are referring to Deflect Arrows here. Here is the relevant portion of that feat: Benefit: You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) to use this feat. Once per round when you would normally be hit with a ranged weapon, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it. You must be aware of the attack and not flatfooted. Attempting to deflect a ranged weapon doesn’t count as an action. Unusually massive ranged weapons and ranged attacks generated by spell effects can’t be deflected. I don't see anything there that talks about unusual ranged attacks. As to the second, I assume you are referring to the deflection property that can be added to armor...here is the relevant text: Arrow Deflection: This shield protects the wielder as if he had the Deflect Arrows feat. Once per round when he would normally be struck by a ranged weapon, he can make a DC 20 Reflex save. If the ranged weapon has an enhancement bonus, the DC increases by that amount. If he succeeds, the shield deflects the weapon. He must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed. Attempting to deflect a ranged weapon doesn’t count as an action. Exceptional ranged weapons, such as boulders hurled by giants or acid arrows, can’t be deflected. Again...nothing there that talks about unusual ranged attacks. So while a Fell Shot may be compared to a foe's touch AC to see if it hits, it may still be deflected normally if the hit succeeds, since this feature operates just as Deflect Arrows does.
TelinArtho 11-17-06, 02:59 PM	I have stated as much in the PM you sent - but I agree with NiQil's arguments. Also - to those not aware of it - the Errata covers that the Arrow Deflection ability of shields should use the text of the feat, not what is described under the ability in the SRD (so no need to make a DC20 reflex save).
hogarth 11-18-06, 11:18 AM	I have two (unrelated) questions: - Can I Use Blackmarket Connections as a Full Activity to get one item at double price instead of two items of standard price? Not according to the description in the Rules of Gladius thread (it specifies "two items"), but I'm sure you could appeal to Cat to change/clarify the full activity rule.
Caterane 11-18-06, 04:12 PM	This thread is now closed. The successor is the Oracle of Gladius thread.