Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ashenai 08-05-04, 11:13 AM	I would normally have posted this in the Tavern, but I felt there was quite enough to read there right now, and I didn't want to clutter it up with what could potentially escalate into a huge rules discussion. Browsing through some of the older fights, I was struck by how many top-notch pitlords appear to miss the ramifications of an important part of the Animal Growth spell. Specifically, the last sentence of the spell description: "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack." Wild shape is (Su), and as such, a magical effect. Therefore, according to the rules, a Wildshaped druid can only grow further with Animal Growth if he/she Wildshaped into a shape that is smaller than or equal to their original form in size. In practice, this means that Medium-size druids Wildshaping into Large Dire Bats cannot grow to Huge size with Animal Growth. Their animal companions can; the druid cannot. This also nixes the Strength and Con bonus from Animal Growth, as well as the Dex penalty, since those are size bonuses. Whether the natural armor increase, the granted DR, and the saving throw bonus can stay is open to interpretation, and should probably be decided on ASAP. There's a very interesting and in-depth treatment of this subject HERE (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/articles/pt20040713a). Please note that it is for the Living Greyhawk campaign setting, and thus in no way Core; in fact, several of the rules they mention there have been overruled by Skip Williams (in his infinite wisdom). However, many of their arguments (including the one I mentioned) are based 100% on Core rules, and as such, should be of interest to us.
Tellish_of_Ket 08-05-04, 11:30 AM	I would whole-heartedly concurr with your findings. In fact there are passages that say exactly what you are talking about. Wish i could find it right now as well. But you are correct. If you use polymorph to increase in size, you cannot increase in size again from another effect. Wildshape is like polymorph in every instance except as noted. That is an amazing oversight on all our parts. Thank you for pointing this out. Another reason why you should be on the Council of Elders. :D -ToK
Caterane 08-05-04, 12:19 PM	Wow! Very good work Ashenai. I suggest to substract 5 levels from each druid because of this :D No kidding. But it brings back some of my faith in the rules.
Jindl 08-05-04, 01:39 PM	Polymorph is not considered a magic effect that increases size. It also does not offer any size bonuses to any thing. The magical effects which increase size are: enlarge person righteous might animal growth expansion This was officially described in a thread by Rich Baker (I think). I'll try to look for it. -Jindl
Druid Roxors 08-05-04, 01:46 PM	"Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack." Well, first of all Wildshape is clearly not a spell, It is a supernatural ability that "happens to work as a spell". Just that they are too lazy to point out how it works. Now, Animal Growth is a spell that increases size, all spells that do so specifically say so in their description. Wildshape/Polly does not Increase size It CHANGES size. Although a technicallity, I believe that the fact that Wildshape does no reference to "magical effects that increase size do not stack" is a clear reason why it should work. Now, on to the spirit of the rules. If you compare all other casters you will find that they have 2 spells/abilities in common, let me demonstrate: Divine Power - Wildshape - Polymorph Righteous Might - Animal Growth - Tensers/AGrowth With this I presume that Animal growth was intended for use along with Wildshape as Righteous might was designed to be used with Divine power. I'll research a bit on this topic and bring you updated information in a while. BTW: My druid has NEVER used Animal Growth + Wildshape to win :)
roll8dn 08-05-04, 03:37 PM	Being relatively new here, I don't really want to step into a flame war (which this could become, judging by how a goodly portion of the threads up here read), but... A supernatural ability, according to the PHB, pg. 314 is: "A magical power that produces a particular effect..." Now, the spell "Animal Growth" is a spell, therefore a magical effect. Since it states in the spell that "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack," they do not stack, if Wildshape is considered to increase size rather than change size (although I cannot really see the difference...). Just wanted to point that out. I don't mean to nerf anyone or make their time here unpleasant, but it needed to be pointed out.
Druid Roxors 08-05-04, 05:08 PM	If I were to think in the way Ashenai does then let me tell you what would happen: When you have permanent Enlarge Person you can't cast Righteous might? If you can, then bear with me. An Enlarged, Righteousmighted individual has a +2 (size) bonus to Strength and a -2 (Size) penalty to Dexterity. So when this individual uses Righteous Might then he will get a +8 (size) bonus to Strength that does not stack thus replacing the bonus from Enlarge Person. In this case, the subject's size would remain the same but the bonus would be augmented. Applying this to Wildshape, You get an unnamed bonus (or just a switch) to Strength to reach your Dire bear Str (31) and When you cast Animal Growth, you get a +8 size bonus to strength. This stacks completely with the other Unnamed bonus and thus the effect would remain but not the size. So, in effect, you have a Large dire bear with 39 Str No Huge penalty to Att and AC and lower reach. Thats not bad at all, It could even be better then the original animal growth due to the space allowed for movement in the arena.
Jindl 08-05-04, 05:13 PM	However, its all irrelevant because Polymorph is not an effect that increases size. Again, this was discussed in detail by Rich Baker (I think), and polymorph is not one of the effects that phrase refers to. By extension, neither is Wild Shape. I know I can find that article, but in the meanwhile, feel free to pose the same question on the CO boards and see what response you get. -Jindl
Druid Roxors 08-05-04, 05:21 PM	I tried, but everyone seems to be asleep.. :(
Ashenai 08-05-04, 05:37 PM	Polymorph is not considered a magic effect that increases size. That's because it often doesn't increase size. When it does increase size (or using Druid Roxor's terminology, "changes" size into a larger form), then, well, it's a magic effect that increases size. That's what "increase size" means: to change into larger size. I honestly don't see how you can debate this. Polymorph and Wild shape are magic effects, and if they increase one's size, then they are magic effects that have increased one's size! It also does not offer any size bonuses to any thing. That's because both Polymorph and Wild shape already grant you the physical stats of the target form, which include size bonuses. The reason you don't get the stat bonuses from Animal Growth if you don't actually grow in size is that they are size bonuses. The magical effects which increase size are: enlarge person righteous might animal growth expansion This was officially described in a thread by Rich Baker (I think). I'll try to look for it. Please do, it would help to have specific quotes. However, if you remembered correctly, I see several issues with that. Firstly, there's at least one other spell that increases size beyond hope of debate: Giant Vermin. If Rich Baker didn't mention that spell, I'm not sure that we can consider his list an exhaustive one. Secondly, Polymorph and Wild shape aren't listed as size-increasing effects because they don't always increase size; that's not necessarily their purpose. When they do increase size, then they are (obviously) effects that increase size. Well, first of all Wildshape is clearly not a spell, It is a supernatural ability that "happens to work as a spell". Just that they are too lazy to point out how it works. As roll8dn correctly pointed out, this is irrelevant. If the rule about size changes not stacking had wanted to refer to spells, it would say "Multiple spells that increase size do not stack." It doesn't; it specifically talks about magical effects. Wild shape is a magical (specifically, a supernatural) effect. @roll8dn: Arguments are constant here. Don't worry about them; they're how we resolve things. Things tend to get heated and passionate a lot, because we're slightly fanatical, but that absolutely does not mean that we don't respect each other. If you have something of value to add to an argument, please feel free to do so in the future as well. :)
Druid Roxors 08-05-04, 05:58 PM	Originally posted by Ashenai That's because it often doesn't increase size. When it does increase size (or using Druid Roxor's terminology, "changes" size into a larger form), then, well, it's a magic effect that increases size. That's what "increase size" means: to change into larger size. I honestly don't see how you can debate this. Polymorph and Wild shape are magic effects, and if they increase one's size, then they are magic effects that have increased one's size! Yes, it can be debated. Polymorph Changes you, Transforms you, Extrapolates your old form and Grants you a new one. Would you consider that Reincarnate as a magical effect that "Increses Size" would make it imposible for Mr Gnome now a human to use Righteous might? That's because both Polymorph and Wild shape already grant you the physical stats of the target form, which include size bonuses. The reason you don't get the stat bonuses from Animal Growth if you don't actually grow in size is that they are size bonuses.In no place does it describe those bonuses deriving from the change in size. It is just as if saying "Sacred bonus" "Unholy bonus" "Inherent bonus" It is just a type of bonus. Be it so, that it "Stacks" with the "un-named bonus" confered by Wildshape. Please do, it would help to have specific quotes. However, if you remembered correctly, I see several issues with that.Yes, I like a heated debate in the afternoon, just give us some time before you spoil the fun Jindl :P Firstly, there's at least one other spell that increases size beyond hope of debate: Giant Vermin. If Rich Baker didn't mention that spell, I'm not sure that we can consider his list an exhaustive one.Oh, and all spells in all splatbooks in existance, I am sure that is a valid argument. Secondly, Polymorph and Wild shape aren't listed as size-increasing effects because they don't always increase size; that's not necessarily their purpose. When they do increase size, then they are (obviously) effects that increase size.Remember, we have no space for "Interpretations" when the core rules and the Spirit of the rules Clearly point that Wildshape was intended for use with Animal Growth. As roll8dn correctly pointed out, this is irrelevant. If the rule about size changes not stacking had wanted to refer to spells, it would say "Multiple spells that increase size do not stack." It doesn't; it specifically talks about magical effects. Wild shape is a magical (specifically, a supernatural) effect.That, I am afraid, is correct. @roll8dn: Arguments are constant here. Don't worry about them; they're how we resolve things. Things tend to get heated and passionate a lot, because we're slightly fanatical, but that absolutely does not mean that we don't respect each other. If you have something of value to add to an argument, please feel free to do so in the future as well. :) Heh, don't worry, Speak up. :)
Ender the Xenocide 08-05-04, 06:09 PM	Doesn't the sage accept emails to solve problems like this?
Druid Roxors 08-05-04, 06:23 PM	He does, But I have never Tried it before. Anyone Know the Address?
Ashenai 08-05-04, 06:26 PM	Yes, it can be debated. Polymorph Changes you, Transforms you, Extrapolates your old form and Grants you a new one. Would you consider that Reincarnate as a magical effect that "Increses Size" would make it imposible for Mr Gnome now a human to use Righteous might? No. There are a number of reasons for this, the simplest one being that Reincarnate is an Instantaneous spell. There is no "magic effect" left after the casting (a Reincarnated character doesn't die in an anti-magic field), and thus the issues with stacking never even come up. In no place does it describe those bonuses deriving from the change in size. Yes it does; in at least two places. First is the spell description: "A number of animals grow to twice their normal size and eight times their normal weight. This alteration changes each animal’s size category to the next largest, grants it a +8 size bonus to Strength and a +4 size bonus to Constitution (and thus an extra 2 hit points per HD), and imposes a –2 size penalty to Dexterity." (emphasis mine) There is no way to parse "this alteration", without having it mean "this change in size". Second, the DMG, page 21, the description of bonus types. And, if you'll allow me a cheap shot, I find it slightly weird that you plead ephemeral and "soft" arguments like "it's designer intent, just look at what all these other classes get!" and then turn around and claim that you can get size bonuses without growing in size. Do you feel that if you cast Animal Growth on an animal, but it cannot grow (due to a low ceiling, for instance), then the designers intended it to still get the size bonus? Oh, and all spells in all splatbooks in existance, I am sure that is a valid argument. I have no idea what your point is: Giant Vermin is a Core spell. But I don't think we should debate this until and unless Jindl procures the actual text he was talking about. Remember, we have no space for "Interpretations" when the core rules and the Spirit of the rules Clearly point that Wildshape was intended for use with Animal Growth. Do they? Where? As for the "spirit of the rules"... I'm afraid I have a different view of the "spirit of the rules" than you do, and I believe I am not alone. Incidentally, I also feel that Animal Growth can be used to enhance Wild shape just fine. Just as long as the druid Wildshapes into an animal no larger than his natural size. Bring on the Ogre druids!
Druid Roxors 08-05-04, 06:42 PM	Originally posted by Ashenai "A number of animals grow to twice their normal size and eight times their normal weight. This alteration changes each animal’s size category to the next largest, grants it a +8 size bonus to Strength and a +4 size bonus to Constitution (and thus an extra 2 hit points per HD), and imposes a –2 size penalty to Dexterity." (emphasis mine) There is no way to parse "this alteration", without having it mean "this change in size".So, in other words, a character affected by Enlarge person does not gain benefits from Righteous Might since he does not increase in size any further? I belive that is not the correct way of handling the spells. This alteration could mean "this transmutation" or "This spell". And, if you'll allow me a cheap shot, I find it slightly weird that you plead ephemeral and "soft" arguments like "it's designer intent, just look at what all these other classes get!" and then turn around and claim that you can get size bonuses without growing in size. Do you feel that if you cast Animal Growth on an animal, but it cannot grow (due to a low ceiling, for instance), then the designers intended it to still get the size bonus?how about: If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, the creature attains the maximum possible size and may make a Strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it— the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by increasing its size.His size did not increase but the animal retained the bonus. I belive this is crystal clear. Do they? Where? As for the "spirit of the rules"... I'm afraid I have a different view of the "spirit of the rules" than you do, and I believe I am not alone.Being an obvious combo for the druid, an errata/Faq or note on the core books would have clarified it if it were to work the way you presume.
Jindl 08-05-04, 06:48 PM	@Ash - Giant Vermin may have been on the list. It was a while back that I read the thread. I think there was another specific magic effect that I'm forgetting also. The point was that Polymorph is not a magic effect that changes size. Polymorph only allows you to become average specimens of the target form. You can't polymorph into a Huge heavy warhorse. You can only become a normal sized heavy warhorse. Since your type changed to animal, and you are in every respect a regular heavy warhorse, your size has not been changed. You are not an enlarged heavy warhorse. That's why animal growth will still work. Polymorph didn't increase your size, it turned you into a normal heavy warhorse. Of course, when I read it, it was explained much more eloquently than that. -Jindl
Ashenai 08-05-04, 07:07 PM	@Druid Roxors So, in other words, a character affected by Enlarge person does not gain benefits from Righteous Might since he does not increase in size any further? Size increases (and associated bonuses) do not stack; they overlap. A person affected by Enlarge Person and Righteus Might would get the Righteous Might bonuses (since they're all more powerful than the Enlarge Person bonuses), but would also get the -2 dex from Enlarge Person. Once the Righteous Might wears off, the person would still remain at double-size, and he would now only be affected by an Enlarge Person. I belive that is not the correct way of handling the spells. This alteration could mean "this transmutation" or "This spell". The term "this alteration" appears several times in the SRD, and it's not used in the sense of "this transmuation" or "this spell" once. Transmutation and Alteration used to mean the same thing in 2nd Ed, but in 3.5, there is no such thing as an Alteration spell. And what do you make of the DMG, page 21? It clearly states that Size bonuses are due to an increase in size. If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, the creature attains the maximum possible size and may make a Strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it— the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by increasing its size. I always assumed this to mean that it got the increased Strength bonus only for the attempt to break out of the enclosure. If it succeeds, that's great; if not, it will keep or lose the size bonuses depending on whether it ends up in a larger size category than its original form or not. Being an obvious combo for the druid, an errata/Faq or note on the core books would have clarified it if it were to work the way you presume. As far as I know, there has never even been errata or a FAQ on the Awaken/Polymorph combo! Do you believe we should allow that, too? +1d3 intrinsic Charisma for 250 xp, an unlimited number of times? @Jindl Please find that text, if you can. If a source that everyone acknowledges to be Core states clearly that Polymorph is never considered a size-changing effect... well, I'll think they're out of their minds, but I'll accept it as Core.
Jindl 08-05-04, 07:14 PM	One minor thing, Ash. The polymorph/awaken combo doesn't work, for a couple of reasons. #1 - With a 24 hour casting time, you would have to be able to stay in wildshape 24 hours so that you didn't interrupt your casting. That requires a 24th level druid, so you're getting into epic rules. #2 - According to the rules for stacking, bonuses from the same spell effect do not stack with themselves. So at most, the epic druid described above could do this spell one time. I'd also like to point out that the wildshape/animal growth combination is a widely accepted tactic, both on this board, the CO boards, Dragon magazine, WoTC modules, um, I can continue. Meanwhile, the wildshape/awaken loop has been universally shunned and closed. -Jindl
Druid Roxors 08-05-04, 07:28 PM	Originally posted by Ashenai [B]@Druid Roxors Size increases (and associated bonuses) do not stack; they overlap. A person affected by Enlarge Person and Righteus Might would get the Righteous Might bonuses (since they're all more powerful than the Enlarge Person bonuses), but would also get the -2 dex from Enlarge Person. Once the Righteous Might wears off, the person would still remain at double-size, and he would now only be affected by an Enlarge Person.But your argument is that those bonuses are not granted in the first place. Since the subject did not increase in size, the bonuses are never granted and thus there is no effect other than the DR and whatever else is not dependant on the "Alteration" The term "this alteration" appears several times in the SRD, and it's not used in the sense of "this transmuation" or "this spell" once. Transmutation and Alteration used to mean the same thing in 2nd Ed, but in 3.5, there is no such thing as an Alteration spell.Perhaps, but the possibility is still open. And what do you make of the DMG, page 21? It clearly states that Size bonuses are due to an increase in size.These are all guidelines, Examples. Read the rest and convince yourself. There could be more effects that grant bonuses such as those from sources unspecified. I always assumed this to mean that it got the increased Strength bonus only for the attempt to break out of the enclosure. If it succeeds, that's great; if not, it will keep or lose the size bonuses depending on whether it ends up in a larger size category than its original form or not.But never does it say that the spell is "dispelled" or such. The bonuses remain even after the attempt fails, there is no reference of it not happening. As far as I know, there has never even been errata or a FAQ on the Awaken/Polymorph combo! Do you believe we should allow that, too? +1d3 intrinsic Charisma for 250 xp, an unlimited number of times?This is not a legal combo. @Jindl Please find that text, if you can. If a source that everyone acknowledges to be Core states clearly that Polymorph is never considered a size-changing effect... well, I'll think they're out of their minds, but I'll accept it as Core. Yep, come on. Find it already!
Caterane 08-05-04, 08:03 PM	Increase size is not = change size??? Druid Roxors, that's the worst word dissection I've ever seen and is a - sorry to say that - a desperate explanation to turn the obvious around. I didn't even see that this discussion isn't finished. Well, let me join then. Supernatural abilities are magical effects. This is clearly written somewhere but I don't have my books right now as I'm not at home. According to your theory a mystic theurge could polymorph into something huge and then cast righteous might on top of that to go gargantuan. Or better - haha, that's funny: Polymorph into something huge then manifest expansion with 2 or three size increases to become COLLOSAL+ LOL Ok, any questions? No? Well, that settles it then.
Druid Roxors 08-05-04, 08:25 PM	Here you go: Sage Chat log (http://www.rpg-network.de/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=45) Q: Magical size growths don't stack, but a druid wildshaping into a large bear is a supernatural ability and is only bigger as a by-product of the animal type. So, can a druid in large form then be Animal Growthed? A: Animal growth only works on animals. Technically, when you wildshape, you gain the animal type, so you could use a spell like animal growth. Your size increase is a function of wildshaping, not of becoming an animal. If I was behind the DM's screen, I would not allow you to use animal growth to get bigger (I'm not so thrilled about giving you the animal type, either, but I'd probably allow other party members to talk to you via speak with animal, so I couldn't disallow animal growth on that basis). If you're planning to use this trick in a game, talk to your DM about it ahead of time. So, It is legal but he feels its a bit too powerful. If he was the DM he would seriously give it a thought. As could we.
Caterane 08-05-04, 08:32 PM	COLLOSAL+
Druid Roxors 08-05-04, 08:42 PM	Originally posted by Caterane COLLOSAL+ I heard you, I did, Really. :P According to your theory a mystic theurge could polymorph into something huge and then cast righteous might on top of that to go gargantuan. Or better - haha, that's funny: Polymorph into something huge then manifest expansion with 2 or three size increases to become You can only do it twice. :(
Druid Roxors 08-05-04, 08:47 PM	So then its settled. You can use Animal Growth along with Wildshape unless you want to houserule it. Everyone Fine with it?
roll8dn 08-05-04, 08:56 PM	quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sage Chat log Q: Magical size growths don't stack, but a druid wildshaping into a large bear is a supernatural ability and is only bigger as a by-product of the animal type. So, can a druid in large form then be Animal Growthed? A: Animal growth only works on animals. Technically, when you wildshape, you gain the animal type, so you could use a spell like animal growth. Your size increase is a function of wildshaping, not of becoming an animal. If I was behind the DM's screen, I would not allow you to use animal growth to get bigger (I'm not so thrilled about giving you the animal type, either, but I'd probably allow other party members to talk to you via speak with animal, so I couldn't disallow animal growth on that basis). If you're planning to use this trick in a game, talk to your DM about it ahead of time. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- By his own admission, "Your size increase is a function of wildshaping, not of becoming an animal." Therefore, under the description of Wild Shape, pg. 37 of the PHB (3.5), it is a Supernatural ability: "Wild Shape (Su):...". Therefore, under the spell description for Animal Growth, pg. 198 of the PHB, "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack,". Therefore, according to the description of a Supernatural Ability, pg. 314 of the PHB, it is a magical property: "supernatural ability (Su): A magical power that produces a particular effect, as opposed to a natural, extraordinary, or spell-like ability." Therefore, by the Sage's own admission, Wild Shape cannot be used with Animal Growth, if the Druid enlarges his/her size with Wild Shape. According to what is set down in the PHB 3.5 and what the Sage has said, changing size is a function of wildshaping, so it is a supernatural ability (which is a magical effect) that changes your size. Therefore, it does not stack with Animal Growth. I really hate to correct the Sage, but according to what is in the PHB, he is wrong...
Ashenai 08-05-04, 09:02 PM	First of all: I don't think we can consider that chat log absolutely authoritative in the sense that most of Skip's rulings are. It was a chat log, he clearly didn't take the time to research (or think deeply about) any of his answers, and his answers are full of phrases like "I suspect", "if I was behind the DM's screen", " *I* use", "unless I recollect incorrectly", "you might consider trying it my way for a while". He's making it clear that he's not "laying down the law" here. (Incidentally, the Sage is being pretty darn vague, and I suspect roll8dn is correct: he is contradicting himself. If the size increase is a function of Wild shaping, as opposed to becoming an animal, then that's strong evidence in favour of not allowing Medium druids Wildshaped into Large creatures to Animal Growth into Huge creatures.) So, OK. I say if the Sage would seriously give it some thought, then we should also seriously give it some thought. I have said everything I wanted to on this subject: I feel that the Core rules are clearly on my side, and--in addition--it would also help balance. Since there doesn't seem to be a general consensus, I think we need to bring this to a head. I think I've played all my cards: if Cat, roll8dn, and I haven't convinced someone by now, I doubt they'll be convinced by anything we say. So I propose putting these questions to the Council (either the current one or the one to be formed soon): 1) If a Medium size druid Wildshapes into a Large animal, or a Medium size Wizard polymorphs into a Large creature, can they increase in size further, via Animal Growth, Righteous Might, Enlarge Person, etc.? (yes/no) 2) If the answer to the previous question is NO, then assume the following situation. A Medium druid wildshapes into a Large direbat, then casts Animal Growth on himself. He will stay Large. Which benefits of the Animal Growth, if any, will he receive? a - The +8 size bonus to Strength and +4 size bonus to Constitution (yes/no) b - The –2 size penalty to Dexterity (yes/no) c - The +2 natural armor bonus (yes/no) d - The damage reduction 10/magic (yes/no) e - The +4 resistance bonus on saving throws (yes/no) Do these questions look acceptable?
Druid Roxors 08-05-04, 09:19 PM	Yes they do, But, we should wait for Jindl to obtain the other offical rulling he is looking for. Also, in a separate note. If you think that the primary concern for implementing this is Balance, you should compare it with a Divine Powered, Righteous Mighted, and Quickened Divine Favored Cleric carrying a Large (Now Huge) weapon. Should this be nerfed (and I am not against it) then the cleric should also be placed on the spotlight.
Tellish_of_Ket 08-05-04, 09:28 PM	Originally posted by Ashenai So I propose putting these questions to the Council (either the current one or the one to be formed soon): 1) If a Medium size druid Wildshapes into a Large animal, or a Medium size Wizard polymorphs into a Large creature, can they increase in size further, via Animal Growth, Righteous Might, Enlarge Person, etc.? (yes/no) 2) If the answer to the previous question is NO, then assume the following situation. A Medium druid wildshapes into a Large direbat, then casts Animal Growth on himself. He will stay Large. Which benefits of the Animal Growth, if any, will he receive? a - The +8 size bonus to Strength and +4 size bonus to Constitution (yes/no) b - The –2 size penalty to Dexterity (yes/no) c - The +2 natural armor bonus (yes/no) d - The damage reduction 10/magic (yes/no) e - The +4 resistance bonus on saving throws (yes/no) Do these questions look acceptable? They do look acceptable. It will be proposed to the new Council of Elders once inaugurated. -ToK
Tyros Elessar 08-05-04, 10:20 PM	I'm sorry to head in like this, and I know that I'm only a newb, that what I'm about to say might have already been taken in consideration and that I may be terribly wrong but how can a wild shaped druid cast animal growth on himself if he cannot complete the verbal component of the spell? The wild shape ability states that the druid cannot speak or emit any sound that the animal he is changing to can't make. Am I right in this or am I missing something? Cuz this argument is making me dizzy :P
Druid Roxors 08-05-04, 10:28 PM	3.5 SRD Feats NATURAL SPELL [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Wis 13, wild shape ability. Benefit: You can complete the verbal and somatic components of spells while in a wild shape. You substitute various noises and gestures for the normal verbal and somatic components of a spell. You can also use any material components or focuses you possess, even if such items are melded within your current form. This feat does not permit the use of magic items while you are in a form that could not ordinarily use them, and you do not gain the ability to speak while in a wild shape.
Caterane 08-05-04, 10:29 PM	Yes, and if the 1st poll is a YES we'll soon see gargantuan psions from level 7 on, and colossal at wilder level 10. :thumbsup: Forget Skip. Everything he says just brings more problems. First his clarification on polymorph, breaking the broken spell even further, then the armor spikes, and now this. 3 of 3 Skip clarifications completely nonsense. I'd say we ignore him from now on. Jind, Ray?
Ashenai 08-05-04, 10:33 PM	I'm sorry to head in like this, and I know that I'm only a newb That's totally okay :) We like questions. EDIT: Answer deleted, since Druid Roxors beat me to it. :cool:
MotherBast 08-05-04, 11:00 PM	Its not that esay CAT. It dosen't matter if WE like Skip or his rulings, it only matters that WotC does. The reason his answers are official is not because he says that they are, but because WotC does. If we ignore his ruleings, then we are ignoring offical rulings of WotC. We can't very well do that and still say we are Core. To remain core, we have to use the core books with all the FAQ, Errata, and offical rulings that come with them. If you were ever a Magic the gathering player, you know how frustrating WotC can be on ruleings, but if you want to play the game, you gotta follow the rules.
Ashenai 08-06-04, 03:34 AM	This debate has been raging on the Core boards for a while now. Here's the latest, originally posted by Failut. (He contacted the WotC customer service department with this question). According to the description of the animal growth spell, multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack. This means that if you wildshape into an animal that is a larger size than you, you may not increase your size with this spell. If you wildshape into a creature that is the same size or smaller than your standard size, this spell will increase your size. Thanks! *Please quote this e-mail in any reply.* Darrin Wizards of the Coast Customer Service Department Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 Note that unfortunately, the WotC Customer Service department is anything but infallible, and cannot really be considered an absolute authority on rules. Nonetheless, I feel that this lends a measure of support to my argument. Still waiting for Jindl's source, though.
Jindl 08-06-04, 08:56 AM	You guys keep saying "waiting on Jindl". Like it's been a few days or something. I'm gonna need more than 9 hours to find that old transcript. Especially since RL concerns are taking up a bunch of my time. I'll try to have something by Monday. -Jindl
Caterane 08-06-04, 12:49 PM	I've found another major mistake - correct me if I'm wrong but a druids companion is a MAGICAL BEAST thus not a valid target for Animal growth
Jindl 08-06-04, 01:20 PM	@Cat - You're incorrect. Check the Errata.
Druid Roxors 08-06-04, 02:21 PM	Indeed you are.
Moherajikuyx 08-08-04, 12:16 PM	Pinging in just to say that I like your way of reasoning Ashenai, always balanced and never with a word of puzzlement even after the most grevious insults. Well, kind of :)
Tellish_of_Ket 08-08-04, 01:26 PM	Originally posted by Caterane I've found another major mistake - correct me if I'm wrong but a druids companion is a MAGICAL BEAST thus not a valid target for Animal growth How soon we forget. You even pointed it out they were animals WAY WAY back. -ToK
Ashenai 08-08-04, 10:35 PM	Thanks, MO :) @Jindl: Sorry, I didn't mean "still waiting for Jindl's source" the way it probably sounded. I simply wanted to call attention to the fact that even though I found a somewhat convincing source supporting my position, we shouldn't consider the corpus of evidence complete until you find your source.
MysticMonk2005 08-23-04, 06:14 PM	Originally posted by MotherBast If you were ever a Magic the gathering player, you know how frustrating WotC can be on ruleings, but if you want to play the game, you gotta follow the rules. I know all too well. WotC can be kinda frustrating with rulings espcialy in MTG
Kazzaroth Pan'theon 08-23-04, 06:43 PM	Hmmm, I am not rule lawyer, but how you can prove that the animal's growth is also limited to newly transformed form? The transforming in process itself is a magicall, but when druid is in animal form, he is not treated as magicall. He is treated to be the naturall animal type wich he has transformed into (at least my knowlegde). Wildshape is not size increasing, it is transformination spell wich changes the druid into normal animal type (of course some animals are larger than druid naturally). Of course this changes druids size, have you ever seen medium sized dire bear? But the wildshape does not directly say that it changes size, it says only that druid transform into a animal (correct me if I am wrong). Like I said, I could be wrong, but has anybody pointed that out?
Jindl 09-01-04, 02:52 PM	<reposted from before the reversion> Thanks for your patience while I conducted my research. Below are my findings: 1. The discussion I referred to was 3.0 material and no longer applicable. 2. The discussion was on the old boards, which is why I was unable to locate it. 3. All evidence points to the fact that alter self (and thus polymorph+wildshape) are magical effects that increase size if the caster becomes something larger. Thus the size bonuses from Animal Growth will not stack with Wildshape if the druid shifted into a larger animal. However, the natural armor bonus, DR 10/magic, and +4 resistance bonus to saves are NOT size bonuses and therefore they do stack with the improvements from Wildshape. If the druid did not increase his size via Wildshape, then Animal Growth works normally. @Medium druids - Sorry. But hey, the dienonychus is a great medium sized animal. @Small druids - :( There are still a few decent small sized animals (badger, dog, eagle). I believe the other GM's will agree with this finding an that it shall be in effect as of NOW. -Jindl
Myrridin 09-03-04, 09:33 AM	So that means if you Polymorph into something larger than you are, and then Righteous Might, you don't get the additional size increase, correct? Just asking, as it has a bearing on this fight. :)
Jindl 09-03-04, 09:42 AM	So that means if you Polymorph into something larger than you are, and then Righteous Might, you don't get the additional size increase, correct? Just asking, as it has a bearing on this fight. :) You don't get the additional size increase, nor do you get any "size" bonuses in the righteous might spell. You wouldn't get the +8 size bonus to Str, the +4 size bonus to Con. You still gain the enhancement bonus to natural armor and the DR, since neither of those are size related. -Jindl
SnarkHunter 09-03-04, 02:58 PM	Related: Large cleric from permanent Enlarge Person casts righteous might. Would he recieve the better of the two bonuses then? That is, since the Str's overlap He'd get a +8 for a net +6 and the RM's con bonus. I know this is how its been handled in the past anywho.