Awesome.... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Awesome.... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
LLMadCow
03-20-04, 11:28 AM I just want to take the time to say how AWESOME I think it is that the Copying spells from NPC's or Scrolls (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=203629) poll has turned into one big vote about what Is or is not fair to fighters! The game has built in balance and if you really ant to discuss how fair something is, try this on for size: How fair is it that Spellcasters have to DECLARE 1/2 of their spells prior to every fight? That way the poor, disadvantaged fighter can have an easier time to prepare for the battle.

Fairness shouldn't be the issue, that was WoTCs obligation to fulfill. THe issue is if it should be allowed based on what the books have to offer, and if one more person says that it involves too much roleplaying, I am so going to push to eliminate Cohorts from leadership!

As it stands right now, since spellcasters are forced to declare 1/2 of the spells in advance, they are almost FORCED to have a larger library of spells to balance that out. So, first you cripple the spellcasters by forcing them to declare their spells, then you attack their GP by not allowing them to copy from other spellcasters?

Let's just get one more poll in there... : Should all spelcasters be banned from the arena?
Magagumo
03-20-04, 12:26 PM *aughs lightly* More strongly said then I would, MadCow, btu I approve with your reasoning and echo it within the polls themselves. I get the general feeling that the CoCo community tends to vote so as to enhance their own chance at winning.... and no offense, but most fo you don't use wizards. Thusly, I think the vote is turning into a house rule to hurt wizards... The Elder Mods tend to support their votes with rational arguments based on the rules, so why isn't everyone held to such a standard?

Think about it...
MotherBast
03-20-04, 01:10 PM Even though I voted aginst you on the poll, I agree that several are voteing simply to limit wizards. That should not be allowed. In light of that, I belive I am going to change my Elder Vote to allow the copying of spells from NPC wizards. The poll was unfairly taken from you, and so I feel it sould be given back. So, the elder vote would stand at 5-3 now, and the open poll would be null and void. I will edit my elder vote now.
kattattack22
03-20-04, 01:37 PM There are reasons for voting no, but when came down to it I was torn and my fighter bias ended up being the deciding factor.

I don't really care if wizards list half their spells or not. A lot can learned from their spellbook, scrolls, default tatics, and previous fights.
Rosella
03-20-04, 02:07 PM The biggest issue currently going on is the rules :censored::censored::censored::censored: :censored:ing. Can't we just all get along and have some fun testing some builds? first the reruns etc. and now this.

A poll shouldn't have started if one doesn't want to accept the outcome as an elder, declaring the poll void is the worst thing once can do right now. The comunity was left a choice, so please let them have it!

Sheesh!

EDIT: Wow, the language filters are set really high! :eek:
xeno_eleusis
03-20-04, 02:48 PM I like the name of this thread.

** edit **
It's Awesome!
Tellish_of_Ket
03-20-04, 03:18 PM you know what though, i didn't hear the same comments from those of us that voted no on INA who thought ppl were just voting (house ruling) to INCREASE the strengths of their characters with that same disregards as you mentioned.

We all have opinions and feel different ways about subjects and we should all be respected for that. I know i didn't vote to strengthened fighter and for any "fairness" issue. I voted no because of the rp aspect. It's too subjective. Maybe we'll have "wizard fights" instead of monster fights and you get to steal their spellbooks and copy their spells if you beat them, hey maybe that'll work...NOT!

-Tok
Battousai2005
03-20-04, 05:53 PM Lets do a comparison of fighters and wizards, shall we?

HD:
Fighters: d10
Wizards: d4
Only a small disadvantage, really

Attack bonus:
Fighters: =HD
Wizard: =HD/2

Saves:
Will vs Fort.
Big deal...

Skills:
See Saves
(wiz ends up better due to high int)

Feats:
Fighter: Bonus every other lev.
Wizard: Bonus every 5 levels

Weapon and Armor Proficencies:
Fighter: All but Exotic
Wizard: ...You're joking, right?

Spellcasting
Fighter: ...........(see wizard Weapon and Armor)
Wizard: Hey, I can throw energy around!

Allies:
Fighter: Buy a Warhorse
Wizard: Yay! A 1/2 HD familiar!

Hmm... Hey look! I think i see a pattern! Does anyone else...?:rolleyes:
Honestly. True, fighters are gonna get screwed by spells like sleep(as i found out) but in reality, they have all the advantages otherwise.
MotherBast
03-20-04, 06:25 PM Rosella: Your right. Declaring the poll void would be completly unfair. I guess maybe the small amout of power I have as an elder went to my head. I have regained my composure now.

I still think it is unfair how many people are voting NO becasue they think wizards are too powerful. It should not be about how powerful the wizard is at all. Its not a poll about balance, its a poll about wether or not to allow an aspect of the game that is normaly very heavly RP. I don't allow wizards to buy spells from other wizard's spell books in my games. Sometimes they may make high level friends, who might give them just the right spell to give them a push in the right direction, but otherwise they must either find or buy a scroll for any spell they want.

Now, I voted NO in the poll, and going back I discoverd I can not vote again, so I can't change my vote in the poll. I still don't think it sould be allowed, but even thogh they are supporting my side of the argument, I don't thing the "fighter contengent" is voting on the true issue.
KerlanRayne
03-20-04, 07:15 PM What if there was a compromise. Wizards get two free spells a level, how about they get two spells per level copied from another spellbook at 50 gp per level. The rest must be from scrolls. Good/Bad? Can't we all just get along?

KerlanRayne
kattattack22
03-20-04, 07:15 PM The RP issues for me were too vague and I saw good arguements for both and yes and no. The fighter argument is just what pushed me from abstaining to no.
Arstimis
03-20-04, 07:25 PM Abstaining to no isnt abstaining......

Anyways, i really dont see how there can be any argument against this.
Ok, the roleplay aspect. Ya right. that is the most rediculous arguement i have seen. Roleplaying isnt an issue in an arena. Try explaining gaining cohorts, magic items, getting to fight in an arena!, without roleplay. It cant be done, but it can be in here, cause its not about roleplaying, its about testing builds. And its 100% Core Rules

Basically by saying wizards cant do it because of roleplaying is like saying no one could gain allies, cause that takes more roleplaying than copying a spell
MotherBast
03-21-04, 09:15 AM Arti: the difference is, in my opinion, that you aren't "guarenteed" to find a wizard who will allow you to copy spells. However, if you have the leadership feat, you are "guarenteed" to attain a cohort, and followers. As a matter of fact, it then becomes the DMs job to incorprate those aspects into the game. While it is possible to loose cohorts and followers, it is not possible to not attain them if you have the leadership feat, and your leadership score says you should have them.

In the case of magic items, I have never, ever, in my life, roleplayed buying an item. As a DM, I hate the concept of waisting game time shoping. Some of my player love it. I can't stand it. The rules say that what items are available in a city is based on the welth chart of that city. That is the only limit the book imposes on what can be bought in a city. So, if the players are in Greyhawk, and want to buy a 100k weapon, by the rules, they can. Do we role play this? No, why would we. The end result will be the same. Instead, the player simply says "I went shopping, this is what I bought." I check to make sure each item is under the maximum price for the city, and if it is, say "ok". So again, no role play needed because its a guarentee that if the city is rich enough, it has what you want. We ruled that Arenatown was rich enough to have any and all magical items, so no roleplay needed.

Getting to fight in the arena is easy, and as a matter of fact. They never say no to a gladiator. So again, no roleplay needed, because its a "guarentee" that you get to fight.

So you see, the three examples you gave are all of things that would be guarenteed to happen if you did roleplay them. The wizards spell book, however, is not something that is "guarenteed" to happen, if it were to be roleplayed. It "depends" on roleplay, while the other examples could be completly ignored in roleplay, since the outcome is the same no matter what.
LLMadCow
03-21-04, 12:15 PM You want to know what is guarnteed? What is guarnteed is that if any of the wizards in the arena WANTED to trade spells, they could do it for FREE, but this crazy poll is still not allowing that! I GUARNTEE THAT MOST OF THE SPELLCASTERS WOULD BE WILLING TO TRADE SPELLS!

GUARNTEE!!!
Arstimis
03-21-04, 01:48 PM All those things is something YOU would gaurantee to YOUR players because thats how YOU DM.
If one of my players wants a holy avenger, im not going to let them walk into a town and purchace it. He will have to go on a quest to find the materials and the right person to make it.
Leadership requires alot of roleplay. The player cant just be an idiot and expect whoever he wants to follow him, he's got to roleplay a person, that people would want to follow. If the player wants a certain creature to follow him. ie a dragon, he is going to have to roleplay finding it and getting on its good side

All the things you have said are stuff that you as the DM gaurantee, not stuff that is 100% gauranteed by the rules. Roleplaying is 90% of DnD, so to say you just gaurantee certain things without roleplaying is taking away alot out of DnD
LLMadCow
03-21-04, 02:33 PM No, those are not things that I guarntee as a DM. Those are things I guarntee you as a player in the arena. I am positive that some of the ARENA SPELLCASTERS would be willing to trade spells. That is a open and free aspect that would include ROLE PLAYING. If people want to see ROLE PLAYING so badly, then I tell you this. Herrix Ignatius has a crush on Cliodhna and is willing to let her COPY any spell she wants to from his spellbooks.

That is just an example. People really should stop pushing this Role Playing aspect so much and realize that the PHB included this information for a reason...
Rosella
03-21-04, 04:50 PM LLMadCow, if you, as a wizard, would've invented a devastating spell that can crush any resistance within the arena it the opponent just fails his/her will save, and you're the only one that has it, would you share that information??

You're assuming that everything is already freely available, but if you would actually HAVE such an arena with wizards and all, spells could even be top-secret tech. (not readily available on scrolls even)

The fact that you can shop for some extra spells of any level is already overpowered in itself, so stop complaining and take whatever you already got.

I myself would ban scrolls alltogether if I would have the power.
LLMadCow
03-21-04, 05:43 PM Okay, and while we ban scrolls, we can also ban the WIDE ARRAY OF WEAPONS AVAILABLE TO FIGHTERS!

GO MONKS
Arstimis
03-21-04, 06:24 PM if you, as a wizard, would've invented a devastating spell that can crush any resistance within the arena it the opponent just fails his/her will save, and you're the only one that has it, would you share that information?? If i wanted someone to take over the arena with me. YES
if i wanted some extra money. YES
If it was against someone i hated NO

but since arena town is big enough for anything, you are bound to find someone that will say yes.

And if the spell was really that powerful, a caster would have learned it from one of the two spells he can learn, rather than buy it
MotherBast
03-21-04, 08:46 PM Arti: I wasn't saying that the examples were something any DM would allow. What I was saying is, that in all those examples, if you through RP completly out the window, and just use the rules, then they are guarenteed to work. If you go strictly by the rules, then it is possible to Buy a Holy Avenger at any city that has a high enough wealth rating. The only thing that could stop you is if the DM said you couldn't. That is DM intervention over riding the rules. Its not wrong, or bad. As a matter of fact, the DMG suggests interventions of that sort. But strictly by the rules, with no RP, you CAN buy a Holy Avenger at any city the size of Arenatown.

With Leadership, againg throwing all RP out the window, you can not be denied the Cohort. Strictly by the rules, if you have the feat, you have the cohort. Again, the DM can step in here, and make it conditional. But, without DM intervention, strictly by the rules, the feat grants the cohort.

With purchasing spells, it is diferent. That isen't something the rules say will happen. Its something the rules say "could" happen. In the first two examples, without the DM saying no, then you get the sword, or the cohort. In this example, the DM has to step in to make it happen. Thats the difference I was getting at.

Edit: But, this discussion is taking us away from the real topic, which is that the poll was decided by votes aginst the "power of spellcasters" more than the focus on the issue itself. That was wrong. I think before the results of that poll are made a rule, the Elder 8 should look into the matter. That poll was clearly not a fair vote.
kattattack22
03-21-04, 09:13 PM Well, its also getting a discount on spells from their wizard buddies and then why can't people get discount magic items, weapons, or armor from their craftsmen or spellcaster buddies?
Hatzinger
03-21-04, 09:30 PM ...because there is no red wizard enclave allowed in the arena town.
Arstimis
03-21-04, 09:32 PM Originally posted by Hatzinger
...because there is no red wizard enclave allowed in the arena town. Who says so? :devil:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LLMadCow 03-20-04, 11:28 AM	I just want to take the time to say how AWESOME I think it is that the Copying spells from NPC's or Scrolls (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=203629) poll has turned into one big vote about what Is or is not fair to fighters! The game has built in balance and if you really ant to discuss how fair something is, try this on for size: How fair is it that Spellcasters have to DECLARE 1/2 of their spells prior to every fight? That way the poor, disadvantaged fighter can have an easier time to prepare for the battle. Fairness shouldn't be the issue, that was WoTCs obligation to fulfill. THe issue is if it should be allowed based on what the books have to offer, and if one more person says that it involves too much roleplaying, I am so going to push to eliminate Cohorts from leadership! As it stands right now, since spellcasters are forced to declare 1/2 of the spells in advance, they are almost FORCED to have a larger library of spells to balance that out. So, first you cripple the spellcasters by forcing them to declare their spells, then you attack their GP by not allowing them to copy from other spellcasters? Let's just get one more poll in there... : Should all spelcasters be banned from the arena?
Magagumo 03-20-04, 12:26 PM	aughs lightly More strongly said then I would, MadCow, btu I approve with your reasoning and echo it within the polls themselves. I get the general feeling that the CoCo community tends to vote so as to enhance their own chance at winning.... and no offense, but most fo you don't use wizards. Thusly, I think the vote is turning into a house rule to hurt wizards... The Elder Mods tend to support their votes with rational arguments based on the rules, so why isn't everyone held to such a standard? Think about it...
MotherBast 03-20-04, 01:10 PM	Even though I voted aginst you on the poll, I agree that several are voteing simply to limit wizards. That should not be allowed. In light of that, I belive I am going to change my Elder Vote to allow the copying of spells from NPC wizards. The poll was unfairly taken from you, and so I feel it sould be given back. So, the elder vote would stand at 5-3 now, and the open poll would be null and void. I will edit my elder vote now.
kattattack22 03-20-04, 01:37 PM	There are reasons for voting no, but when came down to it I was torn and my fighter bias ended up being the deciding factor. I don't really care if wizards list half their spells or not. A lot can learned from their spellbook, scrolls, default tatics, and previous fights.
Rosella 03-20-04, 02:07 PM	The biggest issue currently going on is the rules :censored::censored::censored::censored: :censored:ing. Can't we just all get along and have some fun testing some builds? first the reruns etc. and now this. A poll shouldn't have started if one doesn't want to accept the outcome as an elder, declaring the poll void is the worst thing once can do right now. The comunity was left a choice, so please let them have it! Sheesh! EDIT: Wow, the language filters are set really high! :eek:
xeno_eleusis 03-20-04, 02:48 PM	I like the name of this thread. edit It's Awesome!
Tellish_of_Ket 03-20-04, 03:18 PM	you know what though, i didn't hear the same comments from those of us that voted no on INA who thought ppl were just voting (house ruling) to INCREASE the strengths of their characters with that same disregards as you mentioned. We all have opinions and feel different ways about subjects and we should all be respected for that. I know i didn't vote to strengthened fighter and for any "fairness" issue. I voted no because of the rp aspect. It's too subjective. Maybe we'll have "wizard fights" instead of monster fights and you get to steal their spellbooks and copy their spells if you beat them, hey maybe that'll work...NOT! -Tok
Battousai2005 03-20-04, 05:53 PM	Lets do a comparison of fighters and wizards, shall we? HD: Fighters: d10 Wizards: d4 Only a small disadvantage, really Attack bonus: Fighters: =HD Wizard: =HD/2 Saves: Will vs Fort. Big deal... Skills: See Saves (wiz ends up better due to high int) Feats: Fighter: Bonus every other lev. Wizard: Bonus every 5 levels Weapon and Armor Proficencies: Fighter: All but Exotic Wizard: ...You're joking, right? Spellcasting Fighter: ...........(see wizard Weapon and Armor) Wizard: Hey, I can throw energy around! Allies: Fighter: Buy a Warhorse Wizard: Yay! A 1/2 HD familiar! Hmm... Hey look! I think i see a pattern! Does anyone else...?:rolleyes: Honestly. True, fighters are gonna get screwed by spells like sleep(as i found out) but in reality, they have all the advantages otherwise.
MotherBast 03-20-04, 06:25 PM	Rosella: Your right. Declaring the poll void would be completly unfair. I guess maybe the small amout of power I have as an elder went to my head. I have regained my composure now. I still think it is unfair how many people are voting NO becasue they think wizards are too powerful. It should not be about how powerful the wizard is at all. Its not a poll about balance, its a poll about wether or not to allow an aspect of the game that is normaly very heavly RP. I don't allow wizards to buy spells from other wizard's spell books in my games. Sometimes they may make high level friends, who might give them just the right spell to give them a push in the right direction, but otherwise they must either find or buy a scroll for any spell they want. Now, I voted NO in the poll, and going back I discoverd I can not vote again, so I can't change my vote in the poll. I still don't think it sould be allowed, but even thogh they are supporting my side of the argument, I don't thing the "fighter contengent" is voting on the true issue.
KerlanRayne 03-20-04, 07:15 PM	What if there was a compromise. Wizards get two free spells a level, how about they get two spells per level copied from another spellbook at 50 gp per level. The rest must be from scrolls. Good/Bad? Can't we all just get along? KerlanRayne
kattattack22 03-20-04, 07:15 PM	The RP issues for me were too vague and I saw good arguements for both and yes and no. The fighter argument is just what pushed me from abstaining to no.
Arstimis 03-20-04, 07:25 PM	Abstaining to no isnt abstaining...... Anyways, i really dont see how there can be any argument against this. Ok, the roleplay aspect. Ya right. that is the most rediculous arguement i have seen. Roleplaying isnt an issue in an arena. Try explaining gaining cohorts, magic items, getting to fight in an arena!, without roleplay. It cant be done, but it can be in here, cause its not about roleplaying, its about testing builds. And its 100% Core Rules Basically by saying wizards cant do it because of roleplaying is like saying no one could gain allies, cause that takes more roleplaying than copying a spell
MotherBast 03-21-04, 09:15 AM	Arti: the difference is, in my opinion, that you aren't "guarenteed" to find a wizard who will allow you to copy spells. However, if you have the leadership feat, you are "guarenteed" to attain a cohort, and followers. As a matter of fact, it then becomes the DMs job to incorprate those aspects into the game. While it is possible to loose cohorts and followers, it is not possible to not attain them if you have the leadership feat, and your leadership score says you should have them. In the case of magic items, I have never, ever, in my life, roleplayed buying an item. As a DM, I hate the concept of waisting game time shoping. Some of my player love it. I can't stand it. The rules say that what items are available in a city is based on the welth chart of that city. That is the only limit the book imposes on what can be bought in a city. So, if the players are in Greyhawk, and want to buy a 100k weapon, by the rules, they can. Do we role play this? No, why would we. The end result will be the same. Instead, the player simply says "I went shopping, this is what I bought." I check to make sure each item is under the maximum price for the city, and if it is, say "ok". So again, no role play needed because its a guarentee that if the city is rich enough, it has what you want. We ruled that Arenatown was rich enough to have any and all magical items, so no roleplay needed. Getting to fight in the arena is easy, and as a matter of fact. They never say no to a gladiator. So again, no roleplay needed, because its a "guarentee" that you get to fight. So you see, the three examples you gave are all of things that would be guarenteed to happen if you did roleplay them. The wizards spell book, however, is not something that is "guarenteed" to happen, if it were to be roleplayed. It "depends" on roleplay, while the other examples could be completly ignored in roleplay, since the outcome is the same no matter what.
LLMadCow 03-21-04, 12:15 PM	You want to know what is guarnteed? What is guarnteed is that if any of the wizards in the arena WANTED to trade spells, they could do it for FREE, but this crazy poll is still not allowing that! I GUARNTEE THAT MOST OF THE SPELLCASTERS WOULD BE WILLING TO TRADE SPELLS! GUARNTEE!!!
Arstimis 03-21-04, 01:48 PM	All those things is something YOU would gaurantee to YOUR players because thats how YOU DM. If one of my players wants a holy avenger, im not going to let them walk into a town and purchace it. He will have to go on a quest to find the materials and the right person to make it. Leadership requires alot of roleplay. The player cant just be an idiot and expect whoever he wants to follow him, he's got to roleplay a person, that people would want to follow. If the player wants a certain creature to follow him. ie a dragon, he is going to have to roleplay finding it and getting on its good side All the things you have said are stuff that you as the DM gaurantee, not stuff that is 100% gauranteed by the rules. Roleplaying is 90% of DnD, so to say you just gaurantee certain things without roleplaying is taking away alot out of DnD
LLMadCow 03-21-04, 02:33 PM	No, those are not things that I guarntee as a DM. Those are things I guarntee you as a player in the arena. I am positive that some of the ARENA SPELLCASTERS would be willing to trade spells. That is a open and free aspect that would include ROLE PLAYING. If people want to see ROLE PLAYING so badly, then I tell you this. Herrix Ignatius has a crush on Cliodhna and is willing to let her COPY any spell she wants to from his spellbooks. That is just an example. People really should stop pushing this Role Playing aspect so much and realize that the PHB included this information for a reason...
Rosella 03-21-04, 04:50 PM	LLMadCow, if you, as a wizard, would've invented a devastating spell that can crush any resistance within the arena it the opponent just fails his/her will save, and you're the only one that has it, would you share that information?? You're assuming that everything is already freely available, but if you would actually HAVE such an arena with wizards and all, spells could even be top-secret tech. (not readily available on scrolls even) The fact that you can shop for some extra spells of any level is already overpowered in itself, so stop complaining and take whatever you already got. I myself would ban scrolls alltogether if I would have the power.
LLMadCow 03-21-04, 05:43 PM	Okay, and while we ban scrolls, we can also ban the WIDE ARRAY OF WEAPONS AVAILABLE TO FIGHTERS! GO MONKS
Arstimis 03-21-04, 06:24 PM	if you, as a wizard, would've invented a devastating spell that can crush any resistance within the arena it the opponent just fails his/her will save, and you're the only one that has it, would you share that information?? If i wanted someone to take over the arena with me. YES if i wanted some extra money. YES If it was against someone i hated NO but since arena town is big enough for anything, you are bound to find someone that will say yes. And if the spell was really that powerful, a caster would have learned it from one of the two spells he can learn, rather than buy it
MotherBast 03-21-04, 08:46 PM	Arti: I wasn't saying that the examples were something any DM would allow. What I was saying is, that in all those examples, if you through RP completly out the window, and just use the rules, then they are guarenteed to work. If you go strictly by the rules, then it is possible to Buy a Holy Avenger at any city that has a high enough wealth rating. The only thing that could stop you is if the DM said you couldn't. That is DM intervention over riding the rules. Its not wrong, or bad. As a matter of fact, the DMG suggests interventions of that sort. But strictly by the rules, with no RP, you CAN buy a Holy Avenger at any city the size of Arenatown. With Leadership, againg throwing all RP out the window, you can not be denied the Cohort. Strictly by the rules, if you have the feat, you have the cohort. Again, the DM can step in here, and make it conditional. But, without DM intervention, strictly by the rules, the feat grants the cohort. With purchasing spells, it is diferent. That isen't something the rules say will happen. Its something the rules say "could" happen. In the first two examples, without the DM saying no, then you get the sword, or the cohort. In this example, the DM has to step in to make it happen. Thats the difference I was getting at. Edit: But, this discussion is taking us away from the real topic, which is that the poll was decided by votes aginst the "power of spellcasters" more than the focus on the issue itself. That was wrong. I think before the results of that poll are made a rule, the Elder 8 should look into the matter. That poll was clearly not a fair vote.
kattattack22 03-21-04, 09:13 PM	Well, its also getting a discount on spells from their wizard buddies and then why can't people get discount magic items, weapons, or armor from their craftsmen or spellcaster buddies?
Hatzinger 03-21-04, 09:30 PM	...because there is no red wizard enclave allowed in the arena town.
Arstimis 03-21-04, 09:32 PM	Originally posted by Hatzinger ...because there is no red wizard enclave allowed in the arena town. Who says so? :devil: