Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ashenai 12-14-04, 12:13 AM	I think it's very exciting how the rules people at WotC do not ever speak to each other. In fact, they have apparently never even heard of each other. There's a new Rules of the Game article that happily slaps aside all previous efforts at clarification, errata, saying the exact opposite: "Every item has a list of prerequisites, which are shown right after the item's caster level in the item's description. (If a character wants to make a new item, the item's description must include a list of prerequisites.) Typically, a list of prerequisites includes one feat and one or more spells; however, an item's prerequisites can include multiple feats, spells, and also miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, skills, and race or kind. When two spells at the end of a prerequisites list are separated by"or," only one of those spells is required in addition to every other spell mentioned prior to the last two. For example, the prerequisites for a ring of three wishes are the Forge Ring feat and wish or miracle, meaning that either the wish or miracle spellis required as well as the Forge Ring feat. In addition, the item's creator must have a caster level at least as high as the item's caster level (see page 215 in the Dungeon Master's Guide). Also, an item's creator must have a caster level high enough to cast any prerequisite spell the item has." Whee! Most of the crafting people have been doing has just become illegal. I propose we wait for a couple of weeks to see whether anything changes, then switch over to the latest rules if nothing does.
T'Var 12-14-04, 09:19 AM	umm not big on magical creation, so how excatly is this different than normal item creation?
Huan 12-14-04, 08:36 PM	umm not big on magical creation, so how excatly is this different than normal item creation? To sum up: As you know, with normal item creation (poison, mundane weapons, etc.) you don't need a minimum level to craft anything (just a high enough skill modifier). However, with magic/psionic item creation, you DO need to be, at minimum, of a certain caster/manifester level to craft the items, as stated under each item's description in the DMG/XPH.
Snommelp 12-17-04, 01:20 AM	So, in other words, instead of having a smith forge the ring and a mage cast the required spells, now the mage has to be a smith? Or is it saying something entirely different and I'm digging too deep?
Ashenai 12-17-04, 01:28 AM	No, nothing like that. All it's saying is that the CLs listed in the magic item descriptions are now prerequisites. Example: take a look at Headband of Intellect. Headband of Intellect: This device is a light cord with a small gem set so that it rests upon the forehead of the wearer. The headband adds to the wearer’s Intelligence score in the form of an enhancement bonus of +2, +4, or +6. This enhancement bonus does not earn the wearer extra skill points when a new level is attained; use the unenhanced Intelligence bonus to determine skill points. Moderate transmutation; CL 8th; Craft Wondrous Item, fox’s cunning; Price 4,000 gp (+2), 16,000 gp (+4), 36,000 gp (+6). Well, the red part is now a prerequisite. You can't craft a Headband of Intellect without having at least 8 caster levels. If you didn't know that this used to be any other way, this probably won't surprise you, actually. But there was a big debate about it here once, a while ago, and if I remember correctly, it was unanimously decided that all the evidence pointed to that being simply the item's caster level, and not a prerequisite.
Sindorin 12-17-04, 01:38 AM	I can actually sort of understand why they made this change to a specific caster level. I'll use the headband as a continued example. A wizard usually will get Fox's Cunning at Third Level or so. In the Coliseum, we see wizards crafting theirs usually around fourth level. But if you just learned how to cast the spell Fox's Cunning, you wouldn't necessarily be powerful enough to cast it as a permanent transmutation upon the headband. Thus, the required caster level makes sure that your character is able to successfully create the headband. At eighth level, a wizard could craft a headband of any given bonus, due to the fact that he meets the necessary creation requirement. The required caster level of the Cloak of Resistance is 3 * Bonus. The new rules make perfect sense because of this, we never cared when the headband was created but we sure gave hell if a cloak of a bonus that was too high was created. In that sense, yes, the original ruling was wrong.
KerlanRayne 12-17-04, 06:05 AM	If you didn't know that this used to be any other way, this probably won't surprise you, actually. But there was a big debate about it here once, a while ago, and if I remember correctly, it was unanimously decided that all the evidence pointed to that being simply the item's caster level, and not a prerequisite.No, I was decided that CL was a Prerequisite and then the errata removed that part and we could create at any level. The article is just usung the rules from before the errata. KerlanRayne
Battousai2005 12-17-04, 09:41 AM	...Question. Since when has this not been a rule? When we play offline, we never let each otehr create an item of magical proporty unless they meet that little prerequisite. Keeps them from getting too powerful.
Jindl 12-17-04, 09:44 AM	No, I was decided that CL was a Prerequisite and then the errata removed that part and we could create at any level. The article is just usung the rules from before the errata. KerlanRayne KerlanRayne is right. The Official Errata specifically removed the caster level prereq for creating items. I think the Rules of the Game article was written without consulting the Errata. -Jindl
Ashenai 12-17-04, 10:26 AM	KerlanRayne is right. The Official Errata specifically removed the caster level prereq for creating items. I think the Rules of the Game article was written without consulting the Errata. -Jindl I believe so as well; that's why I suggested waiting a few weeks before implementing it. Actually, I think I'll write an email to Skip Williams, calling the Errata to his attention, and see what he says. Note that if he sticks to what he said in Rules of the Game, then those are the official rules (more recent and also more clearly put than the Errata), and we're going to have to use them. (If someone wants to beat me to writing that email, please go ahead; I have a lot on my plate as it is. Just post the fact that you wrote to him here, and post the answer if/when it arrives.)
KerlanRayne 12-18-04, 05:04 AM	Why are we using these articles to justify rules? These are not official changes and Skip is no longer the Sage. KerlanRayne
Ashenai 12-18-04, 11:29 AM	Well, it doesn't get much more official than Rules of the Game. I think they're accepted as canon by pretty much everyone. They're also not supposed to be rules changes, just clarifications, which is why the current one is kind of puzzling.
Dalton Onestone 01-21-05, 05:59 AM	Well, having just had this rule drop on me like a hammer, I still think it should not at this time be implemented. The DMG seems crystal clear, and there hasn't been an erratum to change it.
Jindl 01-21-05, 08:45 AM	@Dalton - AFAIK, we are giving priority to the Official Errata over the Rules of the Game. Which means that we are not requiring the caster to meet the CL requirement of making the item (though he still must meet the CL requirement to take the proper item creation feat, and he must be able to fill the other prereqs of making the item - spells, etc). -Jindl
LLMadCow 01-21-05, 10:44 AM	@Dalton - AFAIK, we are giving priority to the Official Errata over the Rules of the Game. Which means that we are not requiring the caster to meet the CL requirement of making the item (though he still must meet the CL requirement to take the proper item creation feat, and he must be able to fill the other prereqs of making the item - spells, etc). -Jindl @Jindl - I have yet to see an e-mail, and I haven't written one, so we should be going with no Caster Level requirement other that the ability to take said feats, however the current arena ruling is that Caster Level IS required. (This is part of my sticking issue with my re-build of Herrix Ignatius - I was called on and said he couldn't craft an item since he did not meet the CL!) This is a topic of great debate and confusion. We do need a solid answer, and perhaps this is something that needs to be taken to a vote. We, as a whole, need to be in agreement of what we go by: Official Errata or Rules of the Game articles. Regardless of what the final answer is going to end up being, we need a solid ruling one way or the other, otherwise we may very well end up with some characters ignoring CL and others following CL which is an unfair advantage, or disadvantage depending on how you look at it.
Jindl 01-21-05, 11:16 AM	@Jindl - I have yet to see an e-mail, and I haven't written one, so we should be going with no Caster Level requirement other that the ability to take said feats, however the current arena ruling is that Caster Level IS required. (This is part of my sticking issue with my re-build of Herrix Ignatius - I was called on and said he couldn't craft an item since he did not meet the CL!) This is a topic of great debate and confusion. We do need a solid answer, and perhaps this is something that needs to be taken to a vote. We, as a whole, need to be in agreement of what we go by: Official Errata or Rules of the Game articles. Regardless of what the final answer is going to end up being, we need a solid ruling one way or the other, otherwise we may very well end up with some characters ignoring CL and others following CL which is an unfair advantage, or disadvantage depending on how you look at it. Where did you see that the current arena rule is that the caster level is required? AFAIK, the current rule was changed to not required when the Errata came out, and hasn't been changed since (it did seem that Ashenai said in his post above that we wouldn't change the current rule until this issue on the Rules of the Game was straightened out.) This isn't exactly the Elder Forum, but I think it would be a good idea to go ahead and have the Elder's vote here for a temporary ruling to make sure that all characters are following the same rule. So far the vote looks to be: LLMadCow - No CL requirement. Jindl - No CL requirement. Snarkhunter - No CL requirement. Cellardweller - No CL requirement. Magagumo - Perhaps Snark, Cellar, and Mag can add their votes for a quick ruling? -Jindl
LLMadCow 01-21-05, 12:49 PM	Where did you see that the current arena rule is that the caster level is required? AFAIK, the current rule was changed to not required when the Errata came out, and hasn't been changed since (it did seem that Ashenai said in his post above that we wouldn't change the current rule until this issue on the Rules of the Game was straightened out.) This isn't exactly the Elder Forum, but I think it would be a good idea to go ahead and have the Elder's vote here for a temporary ruling to make sure that all characters are following the same rule. So far the vote looks to be: LLMadCow - No CL requirement. Jindl - No CL requirement. Snarkhunter - Cellardweller - Magagumo - Perhaps Snark, Cellar, and Mag can add their votes for a quick ruling? -Jindl Well, the top of the thread, where Ashenai first discusses it, he mentions it and says that we may wait. However, since then, both Caterane and Ashenai have been telling people that they must meet CL listed in the item description to craft the item. Otherwise I would have brought Herrix back already. In regard to a vote, I am going to have to say that I am against a quick ruling. I will go ahead and post a new message in the Elders forum to bring it to the forefront, but I think that this is something that needs some further debate and reasoning. Quick actions can be wrong actions. Let's see how it unfolds in the Elders thread. LL
SnarkHunter 01-21-05, 01:00 PM	I'd go with the errata here and say the CL is not a requirement. Until I hear otherwise from skip anyway.
Dalton Onestone 01-21-05, 01:12 PM	Where did you see that the current arena rule is that the caster level is required? I heard directly from Cat, in connection with a character (Yagre) who had crafted some Pearls of Power.
cellardweller 01-21-05, 07:32 PM	The errata feels "more official" than the rules of the game, so I favour using its interpretation.
Pitlords 01-22-05, 05:27 AM	That's 4 Elders in favour of going with the Errata, then. The matter is decided. Caster Level is not a prerequisite for crafting most magic items (there are exceptions, like magical weapons and armor, where a caster level prerequisite is explicitly given). The "CL" entry for magic items merely speicifes the item's caster level (to resist dispels and such). As an aside, I (Ashenai) disagree with this ruling, but 4 Elders is 4 Elders. :D
Snommelp 01-22-05, 01:34 PM	I hate to jump in on Elder business, but the vote is actually three elders in favor of the Errata, with LLMadCow abstaining until further debating has occured.
LLMadCow 01-22-05, 02:48 PM	I hate to jump in on Elder business, but the vote is actually three elders in favor of the Errata, with LLMadCow abstaining until further debating has occured. Just so that there is no confusion, I am in favor of following the Errata. Ashenai and I discussed the issue on the side and I stated that my vote went with Jindl, Snark and Cellar. In regard to the issue, I have been opposed to following the Rules of the Game ruling since it came out. I like to stick to official rulings such as Errata and Original Rules.