Centaur characters. COCO-rules. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Centaur characters. COCO-rules. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Hatzinger
07-20-04, 10:39 AM Hey guys, i need your help. I am thinking about making a Centaur Barbarian character named Poserion.

But i remember that there were some issues regarding magic items, especially horseshoes or boots/shoes for centaurs.
Additionally, i am in doubt if the mounted warrior-feats (spirited charge, ride-by attack,...) are available to him or not.

So let´s compile all our clarifications regarding this race here on this thread. I´ll update it in the second post so that we can quickly reference the specific centaur-rules here.
Start arguing! :cool:
Hatzinger
07-20-04, 10:44 AM *this space is for the accumulated rules*
Caterane
07-20-04, 01:24 PM Centaurs cannot wear horseshoes of speed. Voted on in in the Senate long ago.

Centaurs cannot take mounted feats and use them for themselves. They have just 4 legs instead of two so in order to use mounted feats THEY have to ride something (don't ask me what; a horse-horse? LOL).

However, since you are considered a proper mount for a rider, take leadership and give your cohort some mounted combat feats, and a high ride skill to negate hits on you.

But don't expect me to not making jokes about that! :devil:
Battousai2005
07-20-04, 02:06 PM Originally posted by Caterane
But don't expect me to not making jokes about that! :devil:

Thats mean.

Hey, Hat, here's an Idea. Get a Huge Creature to be a mount. You know, centaur stands on him with very big lance (owie. 1d10x3) and charge!!!
kedi
07-20-04, 02:24 PM Originally posted by Caterane
(don't ask me what; a horse-horse? LOL). You know, that's were offsprings come ;)
Hatzinger
07-20-04, 05:51 PM hmmmm... maybe Poserion could "ride" a dragon turtle.

... or wait... :eek: :smirk: :D

I´ll have someone bind four halflings to my hooves. And so, i "ride" them.
Maybe i can force them to wear "torso-rings (exotic saddles) with Might of the Five Mules" for a +5 to my ride check. :bounce:
Battousai2005
07-20-04, 06:55 PM Originally posted by Hatzinger
hmmmm... maybe Poserion could "ride" a dragon turtle.

... or wait... :eek: :smirk: :D

I´ll have someone bind four halflings to my hooves. And so, i "ride" them.
Maybe i can force them to wear "torso-rings (exotic saddles) with Might of the Five Mules" for a +5 to my ride check. :bounce:

Hat, I seem to be doing this a lot but...

"..."
:uh-huh: :nonono: :uh-huh:
"..."
Ashenai
07-20-04, 08:13 PM It might be a good idea to decide in advance what the requirements for using various magic item slots are, so that any arguments are avoided, should someone else decide to make an animal gladiator.

Here are my preliminary suggestions (note that "humanoid", below, does not mean the humanoid type, merely that the creature needs to have features similar to a human's, for instance, a humanoid upper torso would have a chest area, an abdomen, and two or more arms).

Armor: humanoid upper torso. Optionally, certain armors (full plate?) might require a humanoid lower torso as well. Also, for certain armors (see "Armor Descriptions" sections in SRD), usable (though not necessarily empty) gauntlet and/or helmet slots are also required.

Shield: Animated shields may be used by anyone. All other shields require a forearm. A forearm is defined as a limb with an elbow on one end and an appendage not used for locomotion (hand, claw, etc) on the other.

Weapons (and wands and dorjes): Obviously, a free hand is needed (two for two-handed weapons). If you're using the Graft Weapon psionic power, you don't need an actual hand, but you still need an arm or similar appendage. (Wings are not acceptable, claws probably are, tentacles and pseudopods... I dunno).

Head slot: Headbands, phylacteries, and psicrowns may be used by anyone possessing a head. Helmets and hats require human-like heads and skulls (except for size).

Eye slot: Requires at least one eye, possibly at least two. No other requirements for "Eyes" (as in eyes of the eagle, etc). For goggles, the eyes must be located in the character's head.

Amulet slot: Requires a head, a torso, and a well-defined neck between the two. Hydras yes, dogs yes, owls maybe, snakes no, beholders no.

Vest slot: Requires a humanoid upper torso.

Robes: Requires a humanoid upper torso.

Belt slot: Requires a humanoid upper torso with a well-defined waist. (This definition would exclude Bubo, and should be modified if he wants to keep his belt). Hydras no, snakes no, dogs no, centaurs yes, golems yes.

Cloak slot: Requires a torso (not necessarily humanoid). Hydras yes, dogs yes, snakes maybe, beholders no.

Bracers or bracelets: Requires forearms. A forearm is defined as a limb with an elbow on one end and an appendage not used for locomotion (hand, claw, etc) on the other.

Glove/gauntlet slot: Requires hands with fingers. Claws, tentacles, wings, and pseudopods do not qualify. Generally, if a creature can use somatic components, it can wear gloves.

Ring slots: Requires fingers. Tentacles, wings, toes, and pseudopods do not qualify. Claws, maybe, as long as they're on the ends of arms, not legs.

Boot slots: Requires human-like feet. Hooves, paws, claws etc. do not qualify.

Special: Many items do not fall into the above categories. A few of the more common items used:

Ioun stones - can be used by any creature, whether or not it has a head (the description only describes where they are positioned for creatures with heads; for creatures without heads, they circle just above the top of the creature).

Scrolls - require at least one hand to use, and working vocal chords to invoke. (The vocal chords bit also goes for all command word and spell trigger activated items.)

Power stones - No restrictions.

Psionic tattoos - Require a corporeal body.

I realize that these are very "quick-and-dirty" rules; I just posted them to hopefully get some discussion underway.
Battousai2005
07-20-04, 08:25 PM Originally posted by Ashenai

Armor: humanoid upper torso. Optionally, certain armors (full plate?) might require a humanoid lower torso as well. Also, for certain armors (see "Armor Descriptions" sections in SRD), usable (though not necessarily empty) gauntlet and/or helmet slots are also required.

I think this falls under 'Armor for Unusual Creatures' as is described in the PHB.

Shield: Animated shields may be used by anyone. All other shields require a forearm. A forearm is defined as a limb with an elbow on one end and an appendage not used for locomotion (hand, claw, etc) on the other.

See Above

Weapons (and wands and dorjes): Obviously, a free hand is needed (two for two-handed weapons). If you're using the Graft Weapon psionic power, you don't need an actual hand, but you still need an arm or similar appendage. (Wings are not acceptable, claws probably are, tentacles and pseudopods... I dunno).

I think just the standard rules work. Most of these are found in the Monster Manual. 2 hands for 2 weapon fighting, any more and its mulit-weapon fighting.

Head slot: Headbands, phylacteries, and psicrowns may be used by anyone possessing a head. Helmets and hats require human-like heads and skulls (except for size).

Hey, Cat! Can a bear wear a headband yet? Most creatures I see viably wearing headbands and helms.

Eye slot: Requires at least one eye, possibly at least two. No other requirements for "Eyes" (as in eyes of the eagle, etc). For goggles, the eyes must be located in the character's head.

Agreed on this one

Amulet slot: Requires a head, a torso, and a well-defined neck between the two. Hydras yes, dogs yes, owls maybe, snakes no, beholders no.

Yah. A beholder could wear it on its eyestalk though... JK

Vest slot: Requires a humanoid upper torso.

Robes: Requires a humanoid upper torso.

Belt slot: Requires a humanoid upper torso with a well-defined waist. (This definition would exclude Bubo, and should be modified if he wants to keep his belt). Hydras no, snakes no, dogs no, centaurs yes, golems yes.

I guess...

Cloak slot: Requires a torso (not necessarily humanoid). Hydras yes, dogs yes, snakes maybe, beholders no.

Bracers or bracelets: Requires forearms.

Glove/gauntlet slot: Requires hands. Claws, tentacles, wings, and pseudopods do not qualify. Generally, if a creature can use somatic components, it can wear gloves.

Ring slots: Requires fingers. Tentacles, wings, toes, and pseudopods do not qualify. Claws, maybe.

Boot slots: Requires human-like feet. Hooves, paws, claws etc. do not qualify.

Special: Many items do not fall into the above categories. A few of the more common items used:

Ioun stones - can be used by any creature, whether or not it has a head (the description only describes where they are positioned for creatures with heads; for creatures without heads, they circle just above the top of the creature).

Scrolls - require at least one hand to use, and working vocal chords to invoke. (The vocal chords bit also goes for all command word and spell trigger activated items.)

Power stones - No restrictions.

Psionic tattoos - Require a corporeal body.

I realize that these are very "quick-and-dirty" rules; I just posted them to hopefully get some discussion underway. [/QUOTE]

The issue with most of these is that they fall under Wonderous Items. No where does it say that creatures need to have anything for Wonderous Items. Most of what is being said makes logical sense, however.
Ashenai
07-20-04, 08:33 PM The issue with most of these is that they fall under Wonderous Items. No where does it say that creatures need to have anything for Wonderous Items. Most of what is being said makes logical sense, however.

The SRD says:

"A humanoid-shaped body can be decked out in magic gear consisting of one item from each of the following groups, keyed to which place on the body the item is worn." (emphasis mine)

It says nothing whatsoever about item slots for nonhumanoid bodies, and implies that not all of these slots are available for all nonhumanoid bodies. Sadly, it does not go into further detail, which is exactly why this discussion is necessary.
Jindl
07-20-04, 10:00 PM FYI: There are MANY WoTC modules which contain creatures wearing gloves on their claws (the blue dragons in Lord of the Iron Fortress) and rings on their claws (lots of examples). I've even seen a WoTC module with a horse wearing a ring on its hoof (which sorta makes since although I don't agree with it, because a horse's hoof is actually an evolution of its middle digit.)

I would suggest requiring the following for these two slots:

Gloves: The creature must have an appendage which ends in more than 2 digits (such as a claw, hand, paw, - as long as they have more than 2 digits).

Rings: The creature must have definable digits at the end of its appendages (very similar to gloves, except without the >2 digits requirements.)

Remember, magic items are supposed to be highly adaptable.

Also, regarding helmets/hats, human-like heads may be a bit of a stretch. Falconers commonly use helmets for their birds, I've seen plenty of dogs dressed up in hats. Horses wear lots of headgear which resembles a helmet, etc. I don't think there needs to be a distinction between helmets/hats and headbands/phylacteries/psicrowns.

Other than these suggestions, I think you've done good work here.

Oh, and Bubo will be exchanging his belt for a harness, which is something a giant owl can certainly wear (and will serve the same purpose).

-Jindl
Ashenai
07-20-04, 10:25 PM FYI: There are MANY WoTC modules which contain creatures wearing gloves on their claws (the blue dragons in Lord of the Iron Fortress) and rings on their claws (lots of examples). I've even seen a WoTC module with a horse wearing a ring on its hoof (which sorta makes since although I don't agree with it, because a horse's hoof is actually an evolution of its middle digit.)

Well, I'm not sure whether WotC modules are technically Core (I'm thinking no). Nonetheless, since there's nothing else to go on... I agree with your initial feeling; rings on claws are OK, rings on hooves are not. Of course, I don't have any reason for thinking that rings on hooves are not OK, besides a gut instinct that it's "wrong".

Gloves: The creature must have an appendage which ends in more than 2 digits (such as a claw, hand, paw, - as long as they have more than 2 digits).

Rings: The creature must have definable digits at the end of its appendages (very similar to gloves, except without the >2 digits requirements.)

Definitely a lot more lenient than what I proposed (or what I would houserule in my own campaign), but I don't have any objections besides "meh... that's not the way I imagine things".

Also, regarding helmets/hats, human-like heads may be a bit of a stretch. Falconers commonly use helmets for their birds, I've seen plenty of dogs dressed up in hats. Horses wear lots of headgear which resembles a helmet, etc. I don't think there needs to be a distinction between helmets/hats and headbands/phylacteries/psicrowns.

I'd think some distinction is needed; I really don't want to imagine what a helmet for a beholder would look like, even though I have no trouble with imagining it wearing a psicrown. I'd also think it really weird to see Bubo in a helmet. Then again, perhaps it's not any weirder than Bubo in a cloak, so ok, fine :)

Remember, magic items are supposed to be highly adaptable.

Well, within certain parameters. You still can't wear a ring on your toe, or bracers on your legs (at least, I'm pretty sure you can't), which shows me that magic items are picky in some ways.

Other than these suggestions, I think you've done good work here.

Thanks :)
freemoody
07-20-04, 10:31 PM I don't see why an owl can't wear a belt.
In the MM it says it can wear a saddle.
If it can wear a saddle, then I'm pretty sure that it can wear a belt.
The Nighthawk
07-20-04, 10:34 PM Originally posted by Ashenai
Well, within certain parameters. You still can't wear a ring on your toe, or bracers on your legs (at least, I'm pretty sure you can't), which shows me that magic items are picky in some ways.

Hey, in the US, we have many who wear toe rings. (well, Ok, mostly hippie wannabes and punks, but still)

Whats wrong with ankle bracers?

Something to consider though. Most items tend to need certain...tailoring for use by different creatures. Good example is armor. Armor for unusual creatures, for example, has a cost and weight increase. We might want to consider something along the lines for other types of items

EDIT: again with the wrong account. Dang it!!!
Ashenai
07-20-04, 10:50 PM I don't see why an owl can't wear a belt. In the MM it says it can wear a saddle. If it can wear a saddle, then I'm pretty sure that it can wear a belt.

Saddles and belts are functionally quite different. A belt goes around your waist, and is normally held there by gravity and your hips. A saddle is affixed to a creture's midsection by a harness-like system.

For a creature like an owl, which is basically a ball of feathers with wings and legs (just don't tell Bubo I called him a ball of feathers, please), a belt would be really awkward--if not impossible--to keep on.

In addition, the symbolism of belts is that they encircle your center of gravity, your "essence"; that's how they lend power to your whole body. See the whole "girding your loins" bit in the Bible, for instance. Well, an owl's center of gravity is nowhere near where a belt would be for him. (Yes, I do realize I'm rambling. Bear with me. I'm trying to convey my "sense" of how magic items work.) Anyway, none of this has any basis in D&D rules, it's just how things work in mythology.

I really like the idea of changing Bubo's belt to a harness, in fact. A much nicer mental image :)
Hatzinger
07-21-04, 03:35 AM Ashenai, i like the way you are thinking. I finally say 'welcome to the COCO'.
What do you think about Belts for Bears? (And run for cover fast in order not to get "Jindl"ed :D)

To the magic item discussion: we still have the option to rule that all magic items automatically resize for their wielders; so the same magic ring would resize for a Halfling, Storm Giant, Troglodyte and even Horse. And if we´d even rule that all creatures have the same body slots, no matter if they obviously do not possess such body parts, we could spare us much discussion.
In this way, we could eliminate much friction and have a - sometimes quite unusual - working rules system that is easy to use.

OR

If we do not like the above idea, we have to do the work and define for each creature what body slots it does have or not. A general rule would not be enough, because you´d still find arguing-points for, i.e. 'if this creature HAS a waist or not'; so we´d have to go into detail, which is quite a bit of work.
Ashenai
07-21-04, 08:16 AM Ashenai, i like the way you are thinking. I finally say 'welcome to the COCO'.

*grin* Thanks.

To the magic item discussion: we still have the option to rule that all magic items automatically resize for their wielders; so the same magic ring would resize for a Halfling, Storm Giant, Troglodyte and even Horse. And if we´d even rule that all creatures have the same body slots, no matter if they obviously do not possess such body parts, we could spare us much discussion.

There are two reasons I don't feel this is a good idea. The lesser reason is because it is ridiculous; while I can just about imagine a horse wearing magical rings, I'm really having trouble with the concept of a beholder wearing gloves and boots. Not that anyone will (or can) play beholders, of course, it was just the first weird monster that popped into my mind.

The second, and more serious, reason is play balance. Bubo gets a +20 net racial adjustment to his ability scores. +20! Oh, and the 70' fly speed, and those yummy skill bonuses can't hurt, either. A +2 LA and 4 racial HD are not, IMHO, enough to balance the race.

And still, I say Bubo is balanced; perhaps even a little underpowered. Why? Because of his inability to use many items, and his clumsiness (compared to a humanoid) in handling those that he can. I feel that the fact that he can't use, say, boots, is a balancing factor.

I haven't checked the other grossly nonhumanoid races yet, but I can imagine that they are balanced out similarly; more powerful than a humanoid race in terms of stats and abilities, but they lose out on the ability to use all those yummy items. And that's why I feel we might spare ourselves a lot of arguments and headaches if we lay down some basic rules now, while there's only one "weird" gladiator to worry about.
freemoody
07-21-04, 08:30 AM Originally posted by Ashenai
Saddles and belts are functionally quite different. A belt goes around your waist, and is normally held there by gravity and your hips. A saddle is affixed to a creture's midsection by a harness-like system.

Hmmmm... every belt I ever wore was tightened by a clasp in the front. And I used it to help keep my pants up.
Ashenai
07-21-04, 09:09 AM Hmmmm... every belt I ever wore was tightened by a clasp in the front. And I used it to help keep my pants up.

While I would normally love to have a debate with you about how a belt works (preferably over beer and pretzels, emphasis on the beer), I feel we're getting off topic just a smidge :)
Battousai2005
07-21-04, 02:32 PM Originally posted by Ashenai
While I would normally love to have a debate with you about how a belt works (preferably over beer and pretzels, emphasis on the beer), I feel we're getting off topic just a smidge :)

Its really quite amazing. We play in a world where magic is common and extraordinary creatures abound, and we find ourselves arguing about how clothing fits.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hatzinger 07-20-04, 10:39 AM	Hey guys, i need your help. I am thinking about making a Centaur Barbarian character named Poserion. But i remember that there were some issues regarding magic items, especially horseshoes or boots/shoes for centaurs. Additionally, i am in doubt if the mounted warrior-feats (spirited charge, ride-by attack,...) are available to him or not. So let´s compile all our clarifications regarding this race here on this thread. I´ll update it in the second post so that we can quickly reference the specific centaur-rules here. Start arguing! :cool:
Hatzinger 07-20-04, 10:44 AM	this space is for the accumulated rules
Caterane 07-20-04, 01:24 PM	Centaurs cannot wear horseshoes of speed. Voted on in in the Senate long ago. Centaurs cannot take mounted feats and use them for themselves. They have just 4 legs instead of two so in order to use mounted feats THEY have to ride something (don't ask me what; a horse-horse? LOL). However, since you are considered a proper mount for a rider, take leadership and give your cohort some mounted combat feats, and a high ride skill to negate hits on you. But don't expect me to not making jokes about that! :devil:
Battousai2005 07-20-04, 02:06 PM	Originally posted by Caterane But don't expect me to not making jokes about that! :devil: Thats mean. Hey, Hat, here's an Idea. Get a Huge Creature to be a mount. You know, centaur stands on him with very big lance (owie. 1d10x3) and charge!!!
kedi 07-20-04, 02:24 PM	Originally posted by Caterane (don't ask me what; a horse-horse? LOL). You know, that's were offsprings come ;)
Hatzinger 07-20-04, 05:51 PM	hmmmm... maybe Poserion could "ride" a dragon turtle. ... or wait... :eek: :smirk: :D I´ll have someone bind four halflings to my hooves. And so, i "ride" them. Maybe i can force them to wear "torso-rings (exotic saddles) with Might of the Five Mules" for a +5 to my ride check. :bounce:
Battousai2005 07-20-04, 06:55 PM	Originally posted by Hatzinger hmmmm... maybe Poserion could "ride" a dragon turtle. ... or wait... :eek: :smirk: :D I´ll have someone bind four halflings to my hooves. And so, i "ride" them. Maybe i can force them to wear "torso-rings (exotic saddles) with Might of the Five Mules" for a +5 to my ride check. :bounce: Hat, I seem to be doing this a lot but... "..." :uh-huh: :nonono: :uh-huh: "..."
Ashenai 07-20-04, 08:13 PM	It might be a good idea to decide in advance what the requirements for using various magic item slots are, so that any arguments are avoided, should someone else decide to make an animal gladiator. Here are my preliminary suggestions (note that "humanoid", below, does not mean the humanoid type, merely that the creature needs to have features similar to a human's, for instance, a humanoid upper torso would have a chest area, an abdomen, and two or more arms). Armor: humanoid upper torso. Optionally, certain armors (full plate?) might require a humanoid lower torso as well. Also, for certain armors (see "Armor Descriptions" sections in SRD), usable (though not necessarily empty) gauntlet and/or helmet slots are also required. Shield: Animated shields may be used by anyone. All other shields require a forearm. A forearm is defined as a limb with an elbow on one end and an appendage not used for locomotion (hand, claw, etc) on the other. Weapons (and wands and dorjes): Obviously, a free hand is needed (two for two-handed weapons). If you're using the Graft Weapon psionic power, you don't need an actual hand, but you still need an arm or similar appendage. (Wings are not acceptable, claws probably are, tentacles and pseudopods... I dunno). Head slot: Headbands, phylacteries, and psicrowns may be used by anyone possessing a head. Helmets and hats require human-like heads and skulls (except for size). Eye slot: Requires at least one eye, possibly at least two. No other requirements for "Eyes" (as in eyes of the eagle, etc). For goggles, the eyes must be located in the character's head. Amulet slot: Requires a head, a torso, and a well-defined neck between the two. Hydras yes, dogs yes, owls maybe, snakes no, beholders no. Vest slot: Requires a humanoid upper torso. Robes: Requires a humanoid upper torso. Belt slot: Requires a humanoid upper torso with a well-defined waist. (This definition would exclude Bubo, and should be modified if he wants to keep his belt). Hydras no, snakes no, dogs no, centaurs yes, golems yes. Cloak slot: Requires a torso (not necessarily humanoid). Hydras yes, dogs yes, snakes maybe, beholders no. Bracers or bracelets: Requires forearms. A forearm is defined as a limb with an elbow on one end and an appendage not used for locomotion (hand, claw, etc) on the other. Glove/gauntlet slot: Requires hands with fingers. Claws, tentacles, wings, and pseudopods do not qualify. Generally, if a creature can use somatic components, it can wear gloves. Ring slots: Requires fingers. Tentacles, wings, toes, and pseudopods do not qualify. Claws, maybe, as long as they're on the ends of arms, not legs. Boot slots: Requires human-like feet. Hooves, paws, claws etc. do not qualify. Special: Many items do not fall into the above categories. A few of the more common items used: Ioun stones - can be used by any creature, whether or not it has a head (the description only describes where they are positioned for creatures with heads; for creatures without heads, they circle just above the top of the creature). Scrolls - require at least one hand to use, and working vocal chords to invoke. (The vocal chords bit also goes for all command word and spell trigger activated items.) Power stones - No restrictions. Psionic tattoos - Require a corporeal body. I realize that these are very "quick-and-dirty" rules; I just posted them to hopefully get some discussion underway.
Battousai2005 07-20-04, 08:25 PM	Originally posted by Ashenai Armor: humanoid upper torso. Optionally, certain armors (full plate?) might require a humanoid lower torso as well. Also, for certain armors (see "Armor Descriptions" sections in SRD), usable (though not necessarily empty) gauntlet and/or helmet slots are also required. I think this falls under 'Armor for Unusual Creatures' as is described in the PHB. Shield: Animated shields may be used by anyone. All other shields require a forearm. A forearm is defined as a limb with an elbow on one end and an appendage not used for locomotion (hand, claw, etc) on the other. See Above Weapons (and wands and dorjes): Obviously, a free hand is needed (two for two-handed weapons). If you're using the Graft Weapon psionic power, you don't need an actual hand, but you still need an arm or similar appendage. (Wings are not acceptable, claws probably are, tentacles and pseudopods... I dunno). I think just the standard rules work. Most of these are found in the Monster Manual. 2 hands for 2 weapon fighting, any more and its mulit-weapon fighting. Head slot: Headbands, phylacteries, and psicrowns may be used by anyone possessing a head. Helmets and hats require human-like heads and skulls (except for size). Hey, Cat! Can a bear wear a headband yet? Most creatures I see viably wearing headbands and helms. Eye slot: Requires at least one eye, possibly at least two. No other requirements for "Eyes" (as in eyes of the eagle, etc). For goggles, the eyes must be located in the character's head. Agreed on this one Amulet slot: Requires a head, a torso, and a well-defined neck between the two. Hydras yes, dogs yes, owls maybe, snakes no, beholders no. Yah. A beholder could wear it on its eyestalk though... JK Vest slot: Requires a humanoid upper torso. Robes: Requires a humanoid upper torso. Belt slot: Requires a humanoid upper torso with a well-defined waist. (This definition would exclude Bubo, and should be modified if he wants to keep his belt). Hydras no, snakes no, dogs no, centaurs yes, golems yes. I guess... Cloak slot: Requires a torso (not necessarily humanoid). Hydras yes, dogs yes, snakes maybe, beholders no. Bracers or bracelets: Requires forearms. Glove/gauntlet slot: Requires hands. Claws, tentacles, wings, and pseudopods do not qualify. Generally, if a creature can use somatic components, it can wear gloves. Ring slots: Requires fingers. Tentacles, wings, toes, and pseudopods do not qualify. Claws, maybe. Boot slots: Requires human-like feet. Hooves, paws, claws etc. do not qualify. Special: Many items do not fall into the above categories. A few of the more common items used: Ioun stones - can be used by any creature, whether or not it has a head (the description only describes where they are positioned for creatures with heads; for creatures without heads, they circle just above the top of the creature). Scrolls - require at least one hand to use, and working vocal chords to invoke. (The vocal chords bit also goes for all command word and spell trigger activated items.) Power stones - No restrictions. Psionic tattoos - Require a corporeal body. I realize that these are very "quick-and-dirty" rules; I just posted them to hopefully get some discussion underway. [/QUOTE] The issue with most of these is that they fall under Wonderous Items. No where does it say that creatures need to have anything for Wonderous Items. Most of what is being said makes logical sense, however.
Ashenai 07-20-04, 08:33 PM	The issue with most of these is that they fall under Wonderous Items. No where does it say that creatures need to have anything for Wonderous Items. Most of what is being said makes logical sense, however. The SRD says: "A humanoid-shaped body can be decked out in magic gear consisting of one item from each of the following groups, keyed to which place on the body the item is worn." (emphasis mine) It says nothing whatsoever about item slots for nonhumanoid bodies, and implies that not all of these slots are available for all nonhumanoid bodies. Sadly, it does not go into further detail, which is exactly why this discussion is necessary.
Jindl 07-20-04, 10:00 PM	FYI: There are MANY WoTC modules which contain creatures wearing gloves on their claws (the blue dragons in Lord of the Iron Fortress) and rings on their claws (lots of examples). I've even seen a WoTC module with a horse wearing a ring on its hoof (which sorta makes since although I don't agree with it, because a horse's hoof is actually an evolution of its middle digit.) I would suggest requiring the following for these two slots: Gloves: The creature must have an appendage which ends in more than 2 digits (such as a claw, hand, paw, - as long as they have more than 2 digits). Rings: The creature must have definable digits at the end of its appendages (very similar to gloves, except without the >2 digits requirements.) Remember, magic items are supposed to be highly adaptable. Also, regarding helmets/hats, human-like heads may be a bit of a stretch. Falconers commonly use helmets for their birds, I've seen plenty of dogs dressed up in hats. Horses wear lots of headgear which resembles a helmet, etc. I don't think there needs to be a distinction between helmets/hats and headbands/phylacteries/psicrowns. Other than these suggestions, I think you've done good work here. Oh, and Bubo will be exchanging his belt for a harness, which is something a giant owl can certainly wear (and will serve the same purpose). -Jindl
Ashenai 07-20-04, 10:25 PM	FYI: There are MANY WoTC modules which contain creatures wearing gloves on their claws (the blue dragons in Lord of the Iron Fortress) and rings on their claws (lots of examples). I've even seen a WoTC module with a horse wearing a ring on its hoof (which sorta makes since although I don't agree with it, because a horse's hoof is actually an evolution of its middle digit.) Well, I'm not sure whether WotC modules are technically Core (I'm thinking no). Nonetheless, since there's nothing else to go on... I agree with your initial feeling; rings on claws are OK, rings on hooves are not. Of course, I don't have any reason for thinking that rings on hooves are not OK, besides a gut instinct that it's "wrong". Gloves: The creature must have an appendage which ends in more than 2 digits (such as a claw, hand, paw, - as long as they have more than 2 digits). Rings: The creature must have definable digits at the end of its appendages (very similar to gloves, except without the >2 digits requirements.) Definitely a lot more lenient than what I proposed (or what I would houserule in my own campaign), but I don't have any objections besides "meh... that's not the way I imagine things". Also, regarding helmets/hats, human-like heads may be a bit of a stretch. Falconers commonly use helmets for their birds, I've seen plenty of dogs dressed up in hats. Horses wear lots of headgear which resembles a helmet, etc. I don't think there needs to be a distinction between helmets/hats and headbands/phylacteries/psicrowns. I'd think some distinction is needed; I really don't want to imagine what a helmet for a beholder would look like, even though I have no trouble with imagining it wearing a psicrown. I'd also think it really weird to see Bubo in a helmet. Then again, perhaps it's not any weirder than Bubo in a cloak, so ok, fine :) Remember, magic items are supposed to be highly adaptable. Well, within certain parameters. You still can't wear a ring on your toe, or bracers on your legs (at least, I'm pretty sure you can't), which shows me that magic items are picky in some ways. Other than these suggestions, I think you've done good work here. Thanks :)
freemoody 07-20-04, 10:31 PM	I don't see why an owl can't wear a belt. In the MM it says it can wear a saddle. If it can wear a saddle, then I'm pretty sure that it can wear a belt.
The Nighthawk 07-20-04, 10:34 PM	Originally posted by Ashenai Well, within certain parameters. You still can't wear a ring on your toe, or bracers on your legs (at least, I'm pretty sure you can't), which shows me that magic items are picky in some ways. Hey, in the US, we have many who wear toe rings. (well, Ok, mostly hippie wannabes and punks, but still) Whats wrong with ankle bracers? Something to consider though. Most items tend to need certain...tailoring for use by different creatures. Good example is armor. Armor for unusual creatures, for example, has a cost and weight increase. We might want to consider something along the lines for other types of items EDIT: again with the wrong account. Dang it!!!
Ashenai 07-20-04, 10:50 PM	I don't see why an owl can't wear a belt. In the MM it says it can wear a saddle. If it can wear a saddle, then I'm pretty sure that it can wear a belt. Saddles and belts are functionally quite different. A belt goes around your waist, and is normally held there by gravity and your hips. A saddle is affixed to a creture's midsection by a harness-like system. For a creature like an owl, which is basically a ball of feathers with wings and legs (just don't tell Bubo I called him a ball of feathers, please), a belt would be really awkward--if not impossible--to keep on. In addition, the symbolism of belts is that they encircle your center of gravity, your "essence"; that's how they lend power to your whole body. See the whole "girding your loins" bit in the Bible, for instance. Well, an owl's center of gravity is nowhere near where a belt would be for him. (Yes, I do realize I'm rambling. Bear with me. I'm trying to convey my "sense" of how magic items work.) Anyway, none of this has any basis in D&D rules, it's just how things work in mythology. I really like the idea of changing Bubo's belt to a harness, in fact. A much nicer mental image :)
Hatzinger 07-21-04, 03:35 AM	Ashenai, i like the way you are thinking. I finally say 'welcome to the COCO'. What do you think about Belts for Bears? (And run for cover fast in order not to get "Jindl"ed :D) To the magic item discussion: we still have the option to rule that all magic items automatically resize for their wielders; so the same magic ring would resize for a Halfling, Storm Giant, Troglodyte and even Horse. And if we´d even rule that all creatures have the same body slots, no matter if they obviously do not possess such body parts, we could spare us much discussion. In this way, we could eliminate much friction and have a - sometimes quite unusual - working rules system that is easy to use. OR If we do not like the above idea, we have to do the work and define for each creature what body slots it does have or not. A general rule would not be enough, because you´d still find arguing-points for, i.e. 'if this creature HAS a waist or not'; so we´d have to go into detail, which is quite a bit of work.
Ashenai 07-21-04, 08:16 AM	Ashenai, i like the way you are thinking. I finally say 'welcome to the COCO'. grin Thanks. To the magic item discussion: we still have the option to rule that all magic items automatically resize for their wielders; so the same magic ring would resize for a Halfling, Storm Giant, Troglodyte and even Horse. And if we´d even rule that all creatures have the same body slots, no matter if they obviously do not possess such body parts, we could spare us much discussion. There are two reasons I don't feel this is a good idea. The lesser reason is because it is ridiculous; while I can just about imagine a horse wearing magical rings, I'm really having trouble with the concept of a beholder wearing gloves and boots. Not that anyone will (or can) play beholders, of course, it was just the first weird monster that popped into my mind. The second, and more serious, reason is play balance. Bubo gets a +20 net racial adjustment to his ability scores. +20! Oh, and the 70' fly speed, and those yummy skill bonuses can't hurt, either. A +2 LA and 4 racial HD are not, IMHO, enough to balance the race. And still, I say Bubo is balanced; perhaps even a little underpowered. Why? Because of his inability to use many items, and his clumsiness (compared to a humanoid) in handling those that he can. I feel that the fact that he can't use, say, boots, is a balancing factor. I haven't checked the other grossly nonhumanoid races yet, but I can imagine that they are balanced out similarly; more powerful than a humanoid race in terms of stats and abilities, but they lose out on the ability to use all those yummy items. And that's why I feel we might spare ourselves a lot of arguments and headaches if we lay down some basic rules now, while there's only one "weird" gladiator to worry about.
freemoody 07-21-04, 08:30 AM	Originally posted by Ashenai Saddles and belts are functionally quite different. A belt goes around your waist, and is normally held there by gravity and your hips. A saddle is affixed to a creture's midsection by a harness-like system. Hmmmm... every belt I ever wore was tightened by a clasp in the front. And I used it to help keep my pants up.
Ashenai 07-21-04, 09:09 AM	Hmmmm... every belt I ever wore was tightened by a clasp in the front. And I used it to help keep my pants up. While I would normally love to have a debate with you about how a belt works (preferably over beer and pretzels, emphasis on the beer), I feel we're getting off topic just a smidge :)
Battousai2005 07-21-04, 02:32 PM	Originally posted by Ashenai While I would normally love to have a debate with you about how a belt works (preferably over beer and pretzels, emphasis on the beer), I feel we're getting off topic just a smidge :) Its really quite amazing. We play in a world where magic is common and extraordinary creatures abound, and we find ourselves arguing about how clothing fits.