Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LLMadCow 03-21-04, 12:27 PM	Calling all spellcasters! Since the arena ruling appears to be that spellcasters are not going to be allowed to copy spels at the price of 50gp per level, I propose that we simply organize ourselves into a small coalition and FREELY trade spells to our hearts content. Arrange this through PM, but better yet make rules for the order! I propose that EVERY Mage who wishes to participate in the Coalition for Powerful Spellcasters is forced to DONATE at least 1 spell per lvel in order to be allowed to copy the spells from the current pool of available spells. I propose that only new and different spells must be added; once all the spells of one level have been added to the pool, no more need be added. Think of it like completing a library. I propose that ALL spellcasters Donate their current library of spells to the database for a beginning. At that time, all donating spellcasters would be recorded on a roster and have access to the database. One of the Moderators, most likely Caterane, would 'Issue Library Cards' and any character who has one in their posession can freely copy spells. I propose that fighters stop crying and people start allowing what is in the rule books. I am done with my current rant. :)
Battousai2005 03-21-04, 12:40 PM	Okaayyyyyyy. Anyone else think this has gotten blown way out of proportion? Hey, Ive got fighter, and i happen to agree that it is only fair for wizards to get spells into their spellbooks. Otherwise, it would simply be the greatest advantage to play a sorcerer. Truthfully, I think that paying for the spells should be the encouraged system. True, the idea for roleplay is kinda shot in the arena, but the reasoning would be that Mr. Elminster wants a little gold for the spell he is trading away. During leveling, wizards get two spells, so its not like you are getting completely screwed.
barrel_master 03-21-04, 12:54 PM	Is it really going against the whole 'wizzards can't copy spells from other dudes books'? I know I've changed my vote and so has motherblast. I think the vote comes out fairly close after that.
sshuit 03-21-04, 12:59 PM	The real advantage with spellcasters is this. The most common "tricks" in the arena are flying and invisibility. A mage has Invisibility (or another foe has invisibility) A fighter wants to see invisible. Cost : Hand of glory 8000gp A mage wants to see invisible. Cost : Scroll of See invisible : 150gp A fighter wants to fly : Cost Potion of fly 750gp per use. A mage wants to fly : Cost Scroll of fly 375gp per use, or copy it so spellbook, learn it and only pay once. Mages are already plenty strong. The predeclared spells were to make them less strong but they are still much more versatile than poor fighters who have 1-4 different tactics. (Ranged , Melee, Grapple, Sunder) and whose builds pretty much let you know which of those 4 they can actually use with any chance of success. Stop complaining about having to pay for spells it's perfectly fair.
MotherBast 03-21-04, 08:54 PM	But LL's point is that making Casters pay for spells souldn't be about what is "fair". It should be about wether the rules for paying to copy spells from other wizards should be allowed in the arena, despite the heavy amout of Roleplay those rules involve. Most other "role-play" the arena ignores. The supportes belive this role-play should be ignored as well. Those who disagree say the role-play in this situation is so core to the rule itself that ignoring the role-play means ignoring the rule altogether, and so it souldn't be allowed. The power/balance/fairness of this ability and its impact on the game should not in any way be an issue. I don't suppot buying scrolls from other wizards. But more than that, I don't support voting on the poll "against casters" rather than aginst the issue. That is simply wrong. That being said, LL I do hope you were joking about the "spell library" thing. If it happens, then soon to follow will be a "gear pool", where everyone trades equipment, or sells it to younger gladiators at a discount. I really think all gladiators must be keept in a "bubble effect", and not allowed to deal directly with other gladiators.
sshuit 03-21-04, 10:39 PM	OK. I just read the description of the "copying spells from another's spellbook or scroll" section. I'm going to paraphrase here. you need to 1. Decipher Arcane Magical Writings : Spellcraft DC 20+spell level 2. Study spell : Spellcraft DC15+Spell level. Since our present rule is "No rolls allowed outside the arena" that means that as it stands wizards should not be allowed to have ANY new spells other than the 2 free spells per level. Maybe we should fix that? sshuit
Arstimis 03-21-04, 10:56 PM	Originally posted by sshuit OK. I just read the description of the "copying spells from another's spellbook or scroll" section. I'm going to paraphrase here. you need to 1. Decipher Arcane Magical Writings : Spellcraft DC 20+spell level 2. Study spell : Spellcraft DC15+Spell level. Since our present rule is "No rolls allowed outside the arena" that means that as it stands wizards should not be allowed to have ANY new spells other than the 2 free spells per level. Maybe we should fix that? sshuit Im thinking this rule might not really mean much as people are definately allowed to craft and make items. Those definately take rolls to do. 1. Read magic negates that part i think 2. Just one roll If this is really a rule that is in affect, then i guess that means no more Crafting. No more allies gained by Handle Animal, as that would require you to roll a Handle Animal check outside the Arena. so...i think its safe to assume it isnt a valid rule
sshuit 03-21-04, 11:52 PM	The arena rules specifically allow taking "10" on craft rolls, so there is no roll. sshuit. Originally posted by Arstimis Im thinking this rule might not really mean much as people are definately allowed to craft and make items. Those definately take rolls to do. 1. Read magic negates that part i think 2. Just one roll If this is really a rule that is in affect, then i guess that means no more Crafting. No more allies gained by Handle Animal, as that would require you to roll a Handle Animal check outside the Arena. so...i think its safe to assume it isnt a valid rule
Arstimis 03-21-04, 11:54 PM	And what about Handle Animal. I guess that would balance out alot of the allies, no more handle animal, cause your not allowed to roll it outside the Arena
sshuit 03-21-04, 11:55 PM	here is the exerpt from the COCO rules # In the case of using Craft skills and the Handle Animal skill outside of the arena, you are assumed to be Taking 10 on the skill check. For example, to craft a masterwork weapon, you need a Craft: Weapons +10 modifier, to reach the DC of 20. # The DC for poisons made by Craft: Poison is equal to the Fort Save DC +10 for the specific type of poison you are trying to make.
Arstimis 03-22-04, 12:09 AM	Originally posted by sshuit here is the exerpt from the COCO rules # In the case of using Craft skills and the Handle Animal skill outside of the arena, you are assumed to be Taking 10 on the skill check. For example, to craft a masterwork weapon, you need a Craft: Weapons +10 modifier, to reach the DC of 20. # The DC for poisons made by Craft: Poison is equal to the Fort Save DC +10 for the specific type of poison you are trying to make. Well..i guess it should be allowed for spells then, unless the Arena plans to incorporate it as a House Rule
Tellish_of_Ket 03-22-04, 06:23 AM	In case people have doubts about the legitimacy of this debate, let me sum it up and quote the phb. phb 179 "Spells Copied from Another...." (last paragraph) "In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spell level x 50gp, though many wizards jealously guard their higher-level spells and may charge much more, or even deny access to them altogether. Wizards friendly to one another often trade qaccess to equal-level spells from each other's spellbooks at no cost." Can anyone not see the danger in this? Very subjective. Let me give you an example. I create a two new 2nd level wizards. I take 7 spells for one guy and 7 different spells for the other guy. I say, "Hey we are brothers. Come brother, lets exchange spells....FREE!" Now suddenly that 2nd level wizard that would normally have 7 spells to chose from for his first match now has 14?!?! Ok, i win my first couple of fights and now i get access to 3rd level slots. "But oh my, there are a lot of good 3rd level spells to chose from and at 5th level i don't exactly have the resources to buy them all myself. I know what i'll do, i'll call my old guardian and mentor and just all-around nice guy Bruno. " So, Bruno comes down and "gives" wizard-leech access to all his 3rd level spells....FREE. Whammo...now suddenly Wizard-Leech has about 5k in spells more than he should for his level. Didn't spend a dime for them. Please, can anyone not see the danger in allowing this? The "allowing spells to be copied..." IMO is very subjective. I'll give you another exampel; Jindl could make a new wizard, or even take Aku for example, bring Elder out of retirement and WHAM! suddenly Aku has 10k in extra spells. So ppl screaming that this is CORE and should be allowed, please re-read the quote. It is core, but heavily subjective and i can't even begin to say how unbalancing. -ToK
Caterane 03-22-04, 06:47 AM	I regret having to say this but this debate is not valid. We opened a poll and we have to stick to the result, no matter the outcome - else polls would mean nothing. We cannot just create a loophole in case we don`t agree with a poll result. Note that I voted Yes on the copy spells (for 50gp/lvl, not for free) but I will bow to the decision made by the majority - and so will you all. Sorry. - Cat
LLMadCow 03-22-04, 01:19 PM	All I am getting at is these few FACTS: FACT The books say that wizards can copy spells from another wizard at a cost of 50gp per level. FACT Many of the people answering NO in the poll are crying that it isn't fair to fighters. FACT Of the 'ELDERS' 5 out of the 8 are currently IN FAVOR of allowing spell casters to copy spells. FACT If this is disallowed due to the ROLE PLAYING aspect of it, then cohorts, from the leadership feat, should also be thrown out, for that involves FAR MORE Role Playing than the copying of scrolls. I am just very disappointed that we currently have a majority in the elders IN FAVOR of allowing the copying of spells and this poll continues. I am also disappointed that this poll hasn't stayed true to it's purpose, but degraded into what is fair. That's all.
Jindl 03-22-04, 01:38 PM	@LL - Personally, I don't care about this debate one way or the other. I voted No, because of how I interpret the PHB text. I do agree with you that it seems many people are voting more out of a feeling of "balancing wizards and fighters" and less from actually reading the text in the PHB. However, I do feel a need to respond to some of your facts: 1. The PHB actually says that "in most cases". This does not mean you can everytime. That's why we are having the discussion in the first place. The book is vague about how hard it is to find a spellcaster to let you copy his spellbook. 2. I wish that MotherBast had voted Yes in the original Elder's vote. Then we would have never started this poll. However, once it goes to open Poll, it must see its way through. I won't be opening polls and then closing them because an elder changed his mind. 3. I disagree with you on leadership. Its a feat, and its very detailed. It is not vague like the reference to copying spellbooks. The application of leadership, while it might encourage role-playing, can easily be accomplished without RP. So could borrowing spellbooks, if the wording in the PHB had been different. As it is, it seems to me that you must find a friendly spellcaster to borrow from... -Jindl
Caterane 03-22-04, 02:06 PM	As it is, it seems to me that you must find a friendly spellcaster to borrow from... Nahnahnah, that isn`t a requirement either. All we have is that it involves roleplaying and since we completely ignore roleplaying issues I voted in favor of copying spells. But I agree that MB's change of mind has no retroactive effect.
Magagumo 03-22-04, 05:27 PM	*Nods sadly* I agree, we must subject ourselves to the decision of the majority, or this would not be a democracy (well, a democracy beneath an oligarchy ;). My only question, then, is how we will go about fixing things? DO you wnat immediate retroactive payment by Bilo and Bruno on every spell they scribed for 50 x level? I know this is going to curb my prchases in the future (I had 8 7th level spells I had my eye on), but it might eb more than we could afford? Ill pay now if you need to, but it would be nice if I could pay it back after I go to 14th level...
kattattack22 03-22-04, 06:14 PM	I don't think we should make people pay more for the spells they all ready have if we do decided to not allow the copying for 50 gp. The rules weren't clear about it and probably would have gone if someone hadn't brought it up.
Arstimis 03-22-04, 06:22 PM	Ex post facto is forbidden. You cant punish someone for something they did before you made a law banning it. I would say that you do not have to pay extra for any of the ones you have already bought, but from now on you would have to pay the new amount
LLMadCow 03-22-04, 06:47 PM	Sorry guys, but you will have to pay back the difference. In the original thread, somewhere amongst the 1000's of posts, it was discussed and not allowed. I wanted Cliodhna, Herrix, etc. to be able to copy the spells for the 50gp x level price, but they never have. I was unaware that anyone was going about things this way, otherwise I would have brought the issue up sooner. I think my next fight shall be... Red Wizards
Myrridin 03-23-04, 09:36 AM	Originally posted by Arstimis Ex post facto is forbidden. You cant punish someone for something they did before you made a law banning it. I would say that you do not have to pay extra for any of the ones you have already bought, but from now on you would have to pay the new amount Thus giving an unfair advantage to those who did it before it was illegal. If we're trying to keep things fair in the arena, then having those few thousand gold extra that they saved is a pretty nice unbalancing action.
MotherBast 03-23-04, 04:00 PM	LL is correct. The 50gp for a spell was always forbiden before. The vote was to see if we wanted to allow it, not to ban it. If you have been doing this all along, you were in the wrong, and will need to pay back the difference.
Magagumo 03-23-04, 06:47 PM	I believe Bruno has a ton of cash left, and all things considered, will still have enough to raise Paris from the grave when I get around to fighting the boy again ;)