Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LLMadCow 02-18-04, 08:12 AM	This is a temporary thread dedicated to the debate of the Core Arena Allies. Anyone is invited to share their two cents, but I ask that any who do should familiarize themselves with the Core Arena. This post, and others will shortly be modified, this is just a starting point. Here are the current rules in place for the allies in the arena. Quote from the Core Arena: Gladiators thread. Allies Only one ally may be brought in the arena, so druids and wizard or sorcerers may not drag in the mount and an animal companion or familiar. They might possess both though, and summoning during the fight is fine. Allies: you may buy any mount present in the SRD, even those in the MM, for the listed price: it is the price of rearing and training the mount. DCs for training have to be reached by taking 10. The familiars follow the listed prices, xp costs as usual are 5 gp/xp. Class features like animal companions or paladin special mounts are free. Any characteristics are the ones listed in the source books: hps don't follow the "first maxed" rule. You can select anything with a listed LA - even LA = 0 - as your cohort. Monster fights: for handle Animal, where you have to find the pet, and Animate Dead, where you have to find the corpse, and similar ones, where you are not provided of the material for free, you have to fight with the monster before having the chance of using it. Ask for the fight writing it on the sheet title. The fight will be in place of the character's fight of the week. It will count as two fights, as the mod has to wrok for just one player. You have the option of looking for a moderator and asking (in the discussion thread) for a date to do a combined fight, where you control your pc while the moderator controls the monster. Harvester vs. Cauchemare is an example. There are some problems though: you have to trust the moderator very well, and he has to trust you as well: these fights require quite some time and there's the risk that the fight gets protracted for more than a week. In which case, you will not have the chance of fighting. Important: if you gain a handled monster, corpse or anything else through a monster fight, you'll have to add a link to the monster fight in the special section. Check below to see how to add links, in the lower part of the roster. >Handle Animals (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2278970#post2278970) possible allies (thanks Jindl) Leadership grants you an ally for free. You may get any monster with a listed LA (level adjustment), its level for the purpose of leadership is ECL=LA+ racial HDs. You may have an advanced one, and it can grow from a fight to the next one; it has to have all the standard feats and skills, but you may customize the cohort adding skills and feats gotten with the advancement HDs. Its starting stats are calculated with 25 pt buy (elite array). The hps follow the MM method: half (max + min) hps. Cohorts may not craft items!. *This post will be edited frequently to represent the changes and needs for the debate.
LLMadCow 02-18-04, 08:13 AM	Against the Allies This post is for listing all of the comments and constructive arguements in opposition of allies. This post will often be edited, as my time allows; I will do my best to accurately reflect the views and opinions of those opposed to the Allies in the arena.
Caterane 02-18-04, 08:24 AM	Arguments for MERCENARIES Let me give you an example. The Harvester (cleric) wants to have a Cauchemar Nightmare (15Hd). He has to fight it in a monster fight and then - for animation through the spell - pay 375 gp Iron the Panza (barb) wants to have a Megaraptor grandpa (15Hd). He has to fight it in a monster fight. He already payed with skill points. Brackin (monk) wants to get one too, but no! Poor Brackin has no animate dead, nor does he have handle animal or leadership. He fights the Harvester and gets eaten by Nightingale just to be overrun by Anticus the week thereafter. "Unfair! I want an ally too!" With the new rule he will be able to aquire one. He wants an undead too, say a Dragon skeleton (15Hd). Same thing: he has to fight it in a monster fight. Then, because it is a mercenary, he has to pay 2000 Gp. It is more expensive for Brackin but that`s ok because the Harvester has used a class ability and Brackin not (nor did he invest in handle animal or leadership) but at least Brackin won`t get eaten by Nightingale (at least not in round 1 ) The numbers are picked on instinct. Note that the amount of gold can easily be altered, very quickly if necessary. I think that`s a good solution, perhaps the best step we can make towards equalness between the classes. At least we should give it a try. And finally I want to quote a post from LLMadCow: Originally posted by LLMadCow: What are we trying to do? One step forward, two steps back? Remove all allies? Why not do away with ALL CLASS ABILITIES and we can play Adepts, Aristocrats, Commoners, Experts and Warriors? That's the ticket! I tell you this - If you have been here less than 6 months, haven't read EVERY SINGLE POST in the Fights and Discussions, sit down! I've been here since day 1! I was in the previous arena too! I've seen all that we have been through. The more restrictive everything is made, the less creative everything is made. "My Expert is wearing a BLUE Cloak. What about you?" "Nope, my expert is different. He is wearing a Green cloak!" Stop this silly vote! Don't be so extreme! If nothing else let things stay as they are while we discuss the possibility of ensuring balancing issues and reform. Reform I say! No one would get anywhere if instead of fixing something they started from scratch! Some of you who are shouting DOWN WITH ALLIES must remember that you have not been through the fire. You have not seen what I have seen, lived the Arena through all of the tumultuous events! I have fought and argued and voted and spent a lot of my personal time to make this a better place. There are those of us who are doing other things for the arena that goes above and beyond what you currently see. Mo puts a lot of work into this, but there are others. Caterane and I are working on projects. My voice is heard not because I am loud, but because I am experienced and I speak with the voice of reason. Throw down your pitchforks and torches and sit down at the table of debate. Learn to debate your side. Maybe we open a temporary thread for such hotly debated topics. Mo, Cat or I could open a new Thread for the discussion. We have a few first posts taken up and then we track everything. Keep a running log of the pros and cons. Cat will represent one side and I volunteer for the other. Why not try this out and delay the vote for a bit.
Druid Roxors 02-18-04, 12:14 PM	Against the Mercenary option People have proposed: Mercenaries are not a good option at all. Picture Mr wizard casting improved invisiblity and trying to get a companion who can't spot invisible creatures. Or a druid casting Airwalk on an Earthbound creature (tarrasque like) and just bombing him with fireseeds. A cleric fighting a poisoning and fire creature with fire protection and delay poison, or an inteligent undead. What this is going to create is a wave of a few mercenaries with critical weaknesess that can be exploited by (some) classes and bringing them against the classes not so fortunate. Arrowtip the Fighter wants an ally because he is being obliterated by Skeletal Storm Giants. He requests a monster fight with an Avoral Cr 9 while he is a level 11 fighter. (example) The Avoral has DR silver (easily fixed) and is quite a challenge for him, but not too difficult if the fighter is an archer and manages to have a decent will save. Now, once he has this guy as an ally, the Avoral can heal him for almost 70hp in a turn, Dispell magic, See invisible, Has 25 spell resistance, Flys, True-Sees, Casts offensively... He is an excelent anti-caster and support ally. (heal, SR, dispel, and counterspell) Now, this Avoreal would foil most of the spellcaster's plans, as much as a heavy melee companion (Tony) disrupts melee opponents. This tournament will boil down to Rock, Scissors, Paper Allies. Although this promotes great strategy, I thought this was about character matches, not pokemons
Tharkos 02-19-04, 07:00 AM	The whole problem begins and ends with the change in CR for the gladiator who gets the ally and although some allies come from a class ability they are not part of the basic CR of the class. Wizards for example are NOT supposed to have an undead buddy once they could theoretically cast animate dead. Thus one approach could be disallowing all allies although this isnt a really great idea IMO. The first question now becomes: How do we make the matches equal between those who can easily get their allies and those who rarely need one because an ally does increase the CR of a gladiator team measurably ? Suggestions to think about: a. make allies easier to get (cheap Mercenaries for example), b. imposing penalties upon the ones who use allies (raising their "team CR" for example or having them pay for the ally), c. in the spirit of a duel only allow an ally into the arena if both combatants have one, d. something completely different. The second question is how we treat allies between the fights: What happens when an ally dies ? do they get raised for free ? for a cost ? not at all ? Now we have: 1. living allies get raised for free, 2. Wizard familiars incur a gold piece penalty for the lost XP when the familiar dies, 3. animated corpses stay dead and cant be re-animated. IMO option a. isnt a good idea because the arena was about fights between gladiators and not between "bought" 12-headed Pyrohydra-allies. When the ally is almost as powerful as the gladiator the balance is off. Options b. and c. might be possible ways, but their implementation needs to be worked out.
Tharkos 02-19-04, 07:03 AM	Originally posted by LLMadCow / Caterane Reserved. ROFL ... why dont you post when you have something to say or do you NEED to be first / second ?
LLMadCow 02-19-04, 07:10 AM	Look again. Yes, I had yet to edit my post and explain everything. I asked Caterane to reserve the 3rd post and he is going to represent the side that is in favor of the allies.
Tharkos 02-19-04, 10:23 AM	Originally posted by LLMadCow Look again. Yes, I had yet to edit my post and explain everything. I asked Caterane to reserve the 3rd post and he is going to represent the side that is in favor of the allies. So in the end this will be a discussion between you two or what ? Summing up arguments "pro and contra" in two posts isnt going to be practical because this shouldnt be about pro and contra, but rather about finding the way to solve the problem.
Ethendril 02-19-04, 04:27 PM	I think the arena should definitely have allies. It would kill a whole bunch of builds to not allow them. That being said, here are my reasons to BALANCE the allies with ECL -2 cap. 1. It would put the focus back on the gladiator because the gladiator is always more powerful than the cohort. 2. It would level the playing field (I know there are arguments that not all classes are created equally...however, if there is not balance here, some classes will become impossible to play at higher levels because they will be massacred by undead titans). 3. Some classes can have cohorts they can defeat with unconventional means. A wizard (or pixie, whatever) that can fight an opponent with low listen/spot/wisdom and no way to detect an invisible opponent will EASILY win. The problem is when the storm giant or titan is the cohort of the wizard, and the fighter or barbarian DOES have to fight the wizard's cohort with conventional attacks. This creates a huge imbalance, and there will only be classes with very powerful cohorts at higher levels. 4. It creates an imbalance by making skill points and spells more powerful than class abilities and feats. Handle Animal and Raise Dead provide stronger allies than animal companions and Leadership. All a wizard has to do is have animate dead in his spellbook. He doesn't even have to prepare it each week. So for very little cost, he can have an ally more powerful than a fighter at his current level. Also, classes with handle animal can easily obtain powerful allies. In the arena, there aren't that many skills that have a lot of value, so this makes it easy to dump skill points here. For very little cost they get the most powerful allies. 5. It's more fun (this one's subjective, I know). If everyone has access to cohorts and knows they will not be crushed by someone's overly-powerful cohort, people in the arena will have more fun! -Ethendril ROFL ... why dont you post when you have something to say or do you NEED to be first / second ? Do you have to jump on him EVERY chance you get?
Battousai2005 02-19-04, 10:37 PM	Well, here is a problem as I see it. Druids and rangers get animal companions, Wizards and Sorcerers get familiars, and paladins get their special mount. Honestly though, these creatures are not as powerful as companions that can be bought. A wolf vs. a Megaraptor? Heck, a wolf vs. anything that can fly is a set deal. The real issue is that Wizards (who i would like to thank for making such a fine game and can lead to many civilized debates[not here of course]) thought of balance when making the game. A paladin trades in the fighter feats to gain spells, remove desiese, smite evil(hit or miss) and a mount. The problem is that a fighter 1v1 will destroy a paladin due to the overwhelming amounts of feats that he recieves. A paladin doesn't gain a warhorse until level 5 anyway. Money is a poor method. Im not saying to eliminate all allies except for special class abilities, but maybe restrict it by level. An example would be to restrict animal allies to those aquired on the Druid animal companion list or restrict by CR to level. The problem with money is that a wizard doesn't want a shiny new Greatsword +2 that cost all his fortune. He may buy some minor scrolls. Problem: He can potentaly save more money then an average warrior and have enough to buy an overpowered ally. Personally, I cant see many solutions as I am, at best, a moderate organizer.
Ethendril 02-20-04, 12:51 PM	Two votes for more balance so far...
Tharkos 02-23-04, 04:07 AM	Originally posted by Ethendril Do you have to jump on him EVERY chance you get? Now its YOU who assumes its a "personal crusade" against Cat ... if you had read the quote (and title) carefully you would have noticed it mentions TWO people. I will ridicule EVERYONE who makes a stupid remark ... its just that Cat had a higher than average number of them.
sshuit 02-23-04, 12:46 PM	I'm not going to get too into detail here but I'd like to see 1) More emphasis on the gladiators 2) More viability for those characters who choose not to have a mount/cohort . It goes without saying that character + cohort is always stronger but what if you just want to test build a character without adding a cohort? 3) Less munchkinism.
^Rayne^ 03-02-04, 01:16 AM	I would say that the most important thing to test her is how one's gladiator can function in the arena not how powerful a cohort they can afford to buy to do the fighting for them. An animal companion, familiar, and mount were designed for thier respective classes as part of those classes balance. They shouldn't be dismissed and they should be a part of this game. However anything beyond this seems to take away from the spirit of fairness. If a PC has skills in leadership then they can have a cohort who's focus is to help provide gear outside the arena at a cheaper cost (skills in crafting) or whatever. Inside the arena though it is battle between gladiators and what they can carry along with them. If a PC is designed around their mount or a Wizard spends many of their feats and skills around building a golem and spending the necessary money and time to build one then I think this should be allowed. However I am really reluctant to include a whole bunch of undead creations, powerful cohorts, and other high powered monsters to be added to the mix. It gets away from the purpose of the arena and completely changes the flavor of the event.
kattattack22 03-02-04, 03:17 AM	Being the lowly fighter without and not wanting any ally. I would like to see emphasis back on the gladiator. I suggest limiting allies, but more on par with the animal companions and special mounts. Maybe do a little work in figuring out HD caps equivalent to these class features for the Handle Animal skill and Animate Dead spell. Otherwise I will start working on how to tame a dragon, jk :D. At first I like that leadership had a place in the Arena, but bringing a cohort with you to fight is too much. I have no problem with a cohort that can craft stuff if he never fights.
Ethendril 03-02-04, 12:08 PM	It seems that the ally discussion stalled after it started its own thread. Hopefully things can get moving again now that it has its own thread here on our own boards. Does anyone think that the ally discussion gets bogged down because all of the top gladiators (run by the most influential people on the boards) have powerful allies, and don't want to lose their advantage?
Caterane 03-02-04, 12:16 PM	Ethendril, I was the one who started the issue. IMO undead users and animal handlers are too strong and monster fights don`t change anything there: the mount will be ready and shifting the balance. I play a character who uses such a mount and still I want to balance the arena. It is not about my personal interests but about game balance. Unfortunately not everyone sees it that way. So I talked to LL and proposed to freeze the debate for some weeks until everyone realizes and learns by hard that there`s something not quite fair. I especially want to point at Rito and Brackin who had NO CHANCE in their recent fights against Jindl, Bruno and Co. And if they get up to lvl 13 the Harvester`ll challenge them at once because this is almost a free victory. This has nothing to do with them being inferior character builds; it`s just that they are discriminated with the current rules. Now imagine both having a mercenary - an ally like Bruno, Jindl, and the Harvester have...
Moherajikuyx 03-02-04, 12:41 PM	Eth I think it just fell to a page > 2 on the CO board. With our board this won't happen! :cool:
Ethendril 03-02-04, 02:22 PM	Originally posted by Caterane Ethendril, I was the one who started the issue. IMO undead users and animal handlers are too strong and monster fights don`t change anything there: the mount will be ready and shifting the balance. I play a character who uses such a mount and still I want to balance the arena. It is not about my personal interests but about game balance. Unfortunately not everyone sees it that way. So I talked to LL and proposed to freeze the debate for some weeks until everyone realizes and learns by hard that there`s something not quite fair. I especially want to point at Rito and Brackin who had NO CHANCE in their recent fights against Jindl, Bruno and Co. And if they get up to lvl 13 the Harvester`ll challenge them at once because this is almost a free victory. This has nothing to do with them being inferior character builds; it`s just that they are discriminated with the current rules. Now imagine both having a mercenary - an ally like Bruno, Jindl, and the Harvester have... @Cat: I wasn't accusing anyone in particular of this...I just wondered if it was a posibility. I know you are for more balance.
xeno_eleusis 03-03-04, 12:37 AM	I'm confused. The term "Ally" is being referenced for different things. 1. Familiars (not so powerful) 2. Mounts (not intended to be so powerful) 3. Animal Companions (intended to support) 4. Raised Dead (intended to support) 5. Cohort (intended to support) 6. Mercenaries (what page is that on?) Leadership is a useful Feat for some builds. It does not seem balanced when you are not in a "party" configuration, meaning, if I have four level 6 party members and a 5th member as a Cohort then his EL would not increase the party level much at all. But if I was alone and had a Cohort then it's like a party of two. This is a big difference in party level, add a mount, my Cohort has an animal companion of his own, then we have four people in the party. That's just my thinking. So far with the Fight's I've read, I like them the way they are. I think that a "Allies Core Area" would show how rediculus the build can get and obviously not balanced for PC's without them.
Arstimis 03-03-04, 01:00 AM	I think Ethendril's way is probably the easiest and most effective way to balance allies. All allies should have an ECL-2 cap maybe also add mercenaries, so classes that cant get allies too easily can now afford to get them.
Moherajikuyx 03-03-04, 04:23 AM	Sadly animals and the like have undetermined ECL: ECL=LA+HD and LA indetermined.
kattattack22 03-03-04, 04:36 AM	I do believe there are ways to determine it. I have used the table on Anthromorphic Animals in Savage Species to est. LA for awakened animals one-shot. I know its not core, but something to consider.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-03-04, 08:03 AM	Hmmm, good idea, fix something that's already broken by breaking it further? hahah. why am i not surprised? Well, i get to harp again. LOL I always have been and will always remain against extra allies gained via handle animal and animate dead. Allies can be gained via leadership, purchasable ones via the MM and class abilities. This way, everything is in balance already and we don't have to worry about cheesing decked out monsters for absolutely dirt cheap (in essense free) gold. But, my point of view isn't new so i won't keep rattling the "empty can" <klink><klink><klink> I could go on and on about this issue on why it was already balanced BEFORE we added them in, but oh well. The arena is coming down to nothing more than who can build a better ally, not a better character. <sigh> -ToK
Moherajikuyx 03-03-04, 08:49 AM	Speaking of which.. The polls thread was deeply in favor of moving back to more 1vs1 if I'm not wrong lastly...
Caterane 03-03-04, 12:11 PM	It would be a pity to make a step back! We made such great progresses and we will continue to do so. Now why throw in the towel and go back to where we started? Allies are an integral part of the arena. We invented monster fights, we made the CoCo diverse given the limited option the Core only provides. We just have to balance things and everything is ok. Tellish, we could also decrease the power of allies with Ethendril`s ECL-2 rule, or even further if you want to but don`t restrict allies to the few class abilities. A warhorse doesn`t do me any good at level 15 so I can just throw away all my mounted feats. Anyway, the polls are meaningless now. The decision will be made by the senior mods in the Council of Elders. But not now. We have time enough to make such an important descision and it should be well-thought.
Druid Roxors 03-03-04, 12:41 PM	I don't like repeating myself, but I believe my Argument (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&perpage=1&postid=2607561#post2607561) was lost within the discussion. Also consider the fact that some builds which relly on a mount, for instance, would be very weak because of the "1 ally per pc" rule. Something else must be done. Mercenaries are not a viable option. Please think of the children!! Could someone please think of the children!!!!!???
Magagumo 03-03-04, 01:23 PM	Hehe, I'm watching the fights, Cat, and some of our allies are being nullified nicely.. but yea, there are things that need to be handled.. and it involves our monks.. what they need are good ol' "Blaster Wizards" rather than us crazy illusion/necromancers. But seriously, I also notice that when one begins to develop tricky tactics, oen wins. Not meaning to insult people, but the ol- Buff and Fight routine, is completely useless if your opponent is smart enough to dispel you. Now then, obviously your opponent's ally can make things dififcult if you rush them, but there are nice potions (50 gp) which completely protect you from undead and animals. Combine this with the capability of rushing your opponent (I see DD on the monk's sheets, at least Brackin's) and you migth have a win, Idon't know, that's your job to figure it out. Also, we are using the bizarre measuring stick of high-tier fights to judge classes as a whole. After all, there are going to be people that make our lives miserable: Bruno is terrified of the Paldain who si immune to fear, can make his mount nearly impossible to hit with touch spells, and who can destroy his skeleton in a single hit (I've seen it done in my Arena by Lvl 14 Moon-moon vs. a Red Dragon skel with desecrate hp, it exploded in one ride-by attack). Also, Spike, the dwarf with massive hp and an elephant mount stomped all over archer Zorander. My opinion is that we just need fresh blood, rather than taking amssive leaps backward in the vitality and creativity that our Arena has recently founded. Watch those monks vs. Anna.. pick up a ghost touch kama (or even a magic weapon oil) and you boys will have massive touch acs, good abilities in stealth and detection, and a set of saves that can't be beat (Moh, Rito is the hardest person to cast a spell on that I'ver ever seen, his touch is massive, and his Fort, Rex, and Will are through the roof). I don't know if my words ever get through to anybody, but I feel that I'm talking to a brick wall.
Ethendril 03-03-04, 01:32 PM	Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Sadly animals and the like have undetermined ECL: ECL=LA+HD and LA indetermined. I think ECL-2 still works, because if there is no LA listed, it is 0. So an animal's ECL is still HD+0, or just it's HD. It still works.
^Rayne^ 03-03-04, 02:33 PM	Tellish, we could also decrease the power of allies with Ethendril`s ECL-2 rule, or even further if you want to but don`t restrict allies to the few class abilities. A warhorse doesn`t do me any good at level 15 so I can just throw away all my mounted feats. There are more powerful mounts that can be purchased than a warhorse but you also are neglecting the fact that you could purchase magical gear and armor for your mount to protect it better in battle. There are a number of spells you could buff your mount with to also improve its usefulness in the arena. I believe some players who rely on mounts are trying to find a cheap easy solution to make their PC's more powerful by buying obtaining cheap overly powerful mounts and not doing anything spending wise to protect their mounts. If you want a mount that will do well over time choose to be a Paladin or spend more money finding ways to protect it. I don't think there is anything wrong with players wanting to take a step back with cohorts and undead creatures in the arena. They want fights to be between the gladiators again, not their allies and cheesy undead armies. I've said it before but the only help a gladiator should have in the arena should be familiars, animal companions, and legit mounts. Anything beyond this seems to upset the balance designed in the system. The only other creations I would think of allowing is possibly a golem created by a magic user because they take a lot of resources to create and are expensive. Cohorts should only be used outside of the arena and should be limited to crafting needs that reduce costs for the gladiator.
Caterane 03-03-04, 06:04 PM	I don't like repeating myself, but I believe my Argument was lost within the discussion. I answered it long long ago. Picture Mr wizard casting improved invisiblity and trying to get a companion who can't spot invisible creatures. Or a druid casting Airwalk on an Earthbound creature (tarrasque like) and just bombing him with fireseeds. What this is going to create is a wave of a few mercenaries with critical weaknesess that can be exploited by (some) classes and bringing them against the classes not so fortunate. ...or Anna fighting a gorgon who cannot harm her. 1) Fighting a monster where you excell is no problem with the current rules either. 2) You cannot get an ally that is the nemesis of every gladiator. 3) The ECL-2 rule makes sure that you don`t get the tarrasque Arrowtip the Fighter requests a monster fight with an Avoral Cr 9 while he is a level 11 fighter. Now, this Avoreal would foil most of the spellcaster's plans, as much as a heavy melee companion (Tony) disrupts melee opponents. Then we have to make sure the price of the ally reflects this. We can always regulate the cost for the ally. And remember: the (let`s say 2000gp) expensive Avoral has to be fought (=costs credits) and payed (=costs money) again if it dies. We could even make the Avoral 5000 gp if it´s too low for you. Realize: WE can ALWAYS regulate the price to keep the balance. Allies can be gained via leadership, purchasable ones via the MM and class abilities. This way, everything is in balance already and we don't have to worry about cheesing decked out monsters for absolutely dirt cheap (in essense free) gold. No this is no option. Cancelling all allies will destroy many many builds, especially mounted ones. We don`t want that to happen. Also we would have to eliminate ALL companions including familiars and class companions else it wouldn`t be balanced. So, should we keep warhorses only for the mounted builds? Unfair, because they win low level fights. Familiars are part of wizards but then we have to allow for druid/paladin companions too ...and these are too strong and unbalancing; a 2vs1 fight. We made that experience long ago so we allowed for additional companions. And so on and so on. Where to start and where to stop? The arena developed until it is what it is now. We are still seeking balance and mine was another suggestion in this direction. There are more powerful mounts that can be purchased than a warhorse. If one can buy a pegasus why shouldn`t one be able to buy any other monster? Buying a warhorse is exactly the mercenary rule: you buy an ally. My suggestion only widens the available allies. It will be regulated through HD and gold limitation. but you also are neglecting the fact that you could purchase magical gear and armor for your mount to protect it better in battle If you spend gold to improve an existing ally or take the gold and buy a better one is the same. There are a number of spells you could buff your mount with to also improve its usefulness in the arena. Which costs time. Instead of having another 10 rounds of boring buffing your mount you could just buy a better one, pay for it, and save the time. And it`s not "just buff the light warhorse and your lvl 20 foe won`t kill it in 1 round". I believe some players who rely on mounts are trying to find a cheap easy solution to make their PC's more powerful by buying obtaining cheap overly powerful mounts and not doing anything spending wise to protect their mounts. Mercenaries cost gold. They will protect it or lose a valuable ally pretty soon. ECL regulation prevents "overly powerful mounts" The only other creations I would think of allowing is possibly a golem created by a magic user because they take a lot of resources to create and are expensive. So this is again exactly the same thing as a mercenary: a golem mercenary. Takes a lot of ressources to get and is expensive. Here`s again my formula for the mercenaries. I have also posted it at the top of this thread. Let me give you an example. The Harvester (cleric) wants to have a Cauchemar Nightmare (15Hd). He has to fight it in a monster fight and then - for animation through the spell - pay 375 gp Iron the Panza (barb) wants to have a Megaraptor grandpa (15Hd). He has to fight it in a monster fight. He already payed with skill points. Brackin (monk) wants to get one too, but no! Poor Brackin has no animate dead, nor does he have handle animal or leadership. He fights the Harvester and gets eaten by Nightingale just to be overrun by Anticus the week thereafter. "Unfair! I want an ally too!" With the new rule he will be able to aquire one. He wants an undead too, say a Dragon skeleton (15Hd). Same thing: he has to fight it in a monster fight. Then, because it is a mercenary, he has to pay 2000 Gp. It is more expensive for Brackin but that`s ok because the Harvester has used a class ability and Brackin not (nor did he invest in handle animal or leadership) but at least Brackin won`t get eaten by Nightingale (at least not in round 1 ) The numbers are picked on instinct. Note that the amount of gold can easily be altered, very quickly if necessary. I think that`s a good solution, perhaps the best step we can make towards equalness between the classes. At least we should give it a try. And finally I want to quote a post from LLMadCow: Originally posted by LLMadCow: What are we trying to do? One step forward, two steps back? Remove all allies? Why not do away with ALL CLASS ABILITIES and we can play Adepts, Aristocrats, Commoners, Experts and Warriors? That's the ticket! I tell you this - If you have been here less than 6 months, haven't read EVERY SINGLE POST in the Fights and Discussions, sit down! I've been here since day 1! I was in the previous arena too! I've seen all that we have been through. The more restrictive everything is made, the less creative everything is made. "My Expert is wearing a BLUE Cloak. What about you?" "Nope, my expert is different. He is wearing a Green cloak!" Stop this silly vote! Don't be so extreme! If nothing else let things stay as they are while we discuss the possibility of ensuring balancing issues and reform. Reform I say! No one would get anywhere if instead of fixing something they started from scratch! Some of you who are shouting DOWN WITH ALLIES must remember that you have not been through the fire. You have not seen what I have seen, lived the Arena through all of the tumultuous events! I have fought and argued and voted and spent a lot of my personal time to make this a better place. There are those of us who are doing other things for the arena that goes above and beyond what you currently see. Mo puts a lot of work into this, but there are others. Caterane and I are working on projects. My voice is heard not because I am loud, but because I am experienced and I speak with the voice of reason. Throw down your pitchforks and torches and sit down at the table of debate. Learn to debate your side. Maybe we open a temporary thread for such hotly debated topics. Mo, Cat or I could open a new Thread for the discussion. We have a few first posts taken up and then we track everything. Keep a running log of the pros and cons. Cat will represent one side and I volunteer for the other. Why not try this out and delay the vote for a bit.
Ethendril 03-03-04, 06:13 PM	I like Cat's idea for the mercenaries because it would mean that all builds can remain competitive at higher levels. The price could be adjusted to be as high as we needed it to be (perhaps based off a formula for existing allies you can currently buy, like pegasus, horses, etc.?). Now if we can just tie all the allies into one comprehensive ally system (ECL-2), we'll be equal, and great.
^Rayne^ 03-03-04, 06:41 PM	Cat you paid next to nothing in your example for a overly powerful mount. but you also are neglecting the fact that you could purchase magical gear and armor for your mount to protect it better in battle -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you spend gold to improve an existing ally or take the gold and buy a better one is the same. Buying a better one is not the same as buying items to protect your old mount. A warhorse and most other mounts can't eat their competitors whole! Your example proves the imbalance! You can't argue the mounts are the same at all and that arguement is plain silly. If it was essentially the same thing you wouldn't give up the warhorse for an undead monster that eats gladiators whole! quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There are a number of spells you could buff your mount with to also improve its usefulness in the arena. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Which costs time. Instead of having another 10 rounds of boring buffing your mount you could just buy a better one, pay for it, and save the time. And it`s not "just buff the light warhorse and your lvl 20 foe won`t kill it in 1 round". This is exactly my point. Having to protect a mount with buffs is called balance. What you are looking for is a way around balance to have more power than everyone else. This isn't fair and your trying to run away from this argument and claim a -2 ecl will fix this problem. It won't fix the problem and having mounts that can eat a gladiator whole doesn't show how great the gladiator is anymore it shows how much cheese the gladiator's money can buy. A golem costs serious money and time. Spending 375gp to raise and undead monster (along with the spells needed to do it) does not show your PC has really spent enough to get it. In a campaign a DM wouldn't make some of the monsters you are resurrecting easy to find because they would be aware such a mount would be unbalancing. The problem with the arena at this point is that no one can go in and stop players from getting anything they can find in the Monster Manual without any effort at all. This steals balance away from the arena and robs some gladiators of any fair chance to compete. One resource this arena doesn't take into account is time and if you plan on finding and using undead monsters like you are using then that would require tons of time. This should translate to tons of money but it doesn't in these circumstances. Since we can't add this level of balance to the game because we can't define how much time = how much money then we have to do the right thing and not allow this kind of unfair playing.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-03-04, 06:50 PM	I'm fine with the way things are actually. I just don't think adding more allies will fix anything. I don't think, at this point in time, anything needs fixing is what i'm saying. IF we do anything for allies though, it should be start from scratch. I don't think we gave it enough time to truely find out it's implications. It started when the druids and paladins where getting their companions and players who played other classes started groaning. So instead of coming up with better tactics, it was decided to give them allies as well via handle animal/animate dead. Now the all-ally-build is skyrocketting through the charts and again, ppl who don't have access to it, are saying, "Whoa..too much...we need better allies to compete with those allies." You see where i'm getting at? Instead of implementing sound tactics ppl just want bigger/better/faster. It's not the way to solve anything. So now if mercenaries are allowed, paladins and druids are gonna be hosed thinking, "Gee, they have killer mercs and all my class abilities are for not. I need monstrous animals companions/bonded mounts." It's a never ending cycle. All those who took leadership will be, "Doh. my pathetic el-2 guys doesn't hold a candle to that el 10 massive butcher build merc attached to the 5th lvl gladiator, so we should negate the el cap on leadership because i need to compete with everyone else." and la la la, it goes on. Fixing something by adding in more broken stuff, isn't a solution IMO. -ToK
Arstimis 03-03-04, 06:58 PM	I think Tellish makes alot of sense in what he is sayingb how about only allies from class abilities, and only ones that can be purchased in the MM. In order to use or have an allie it still has to be ECL-2, no matter if it was bought or a class ability. I cant think of any builds that would be restricted by this The simpler, the more balanced
Caterane 03-03-04, 07:02 PM	So instead of coming up with better tactics, it was decided to give them allies as well via handle animal/animate dead. That`s easy said. Mo and I had a hour long discussion what Rito could do against Bruno and his giant. We couldn`t find any because it was like David vs Goliath. Read the fight and tell me what your tactic would`ve been. All those who took leadership will be, "Doh. my pathetic el-2 guys doesn't hold a candle to that el 10 massive butcher build merc attached to the 5th lvl gladiator 1) The leadership ally doesn`t cost money. 2) You don`t have to pay that money again every time the ally dies 3) A 5th level gladiator cannot get a lvl 10 ally. Only a 3rd level ally. I told that several times already :rolleyes: Here`s the quote from my post: Originally posted by Caterane: The ECL-2 rule makes sure that you don`t get the tarrasque Cat you paid next to nothing in your example for a overly powerful mount. Again and again: THEN RAISE THE PRICE!! HERE`S A QUOTE FROM MY POST: Originally posted by Caterane: The numbers are picked on instinct. Note that the amount of gold can easily be altered, very quickly if necessary. In a campaign a DM wouldn't make some of the monsters you are resurrecting easy to find because they would be aware such a mount would be unbalancing. And he wouldn`t allow to buy every magic item just by going into a shop and pay the price either. If time matters then paladins and wizos have to wait a year when their ally dies. But don`t come up with campaigns now. @all: Please read my posts. I don`t want to say everything again and again.
MotherBast 03-03-04, 07:23 PM	I have remained out of this discussion for its duration. But now, seeing the direction it is going, I would like to make a small point. My main character is Brackin. Brackin's concept is "sneak up and grab the other guy." Thats it. Its what he does. The thing is, Brackin has never had an allie, and has never wanted one. What I want to see happen is for it to become possible for Brackin, and others like him, to actually compete in the arena. I want it to be possible to win without an allie. While adding Mercanaries might put everyone on equal footing, it would only be equal in that everyone would absolutly have to have an allie. You either gain one through a class feature, or you buy a mercanary. If you don't, well, your opponit did, and so his two on one kills you. So far, Brackin's favorit opponit is Bilo. I love fighting him, even though I have lost 3 times in a row. Its because when I fight Bilo, I know I'm fighting Bilo. Its me vs. him. He has stealth, and deciet, and I have resilency and raw power. It is brains vs. brawn at the very core. Now, I hate figting Bruno. Because I know its not Brackin vs. Bruno. Its Brackin vs. Bruno and friend. Fact is, even with Abundent Step giving Brackin the ability to reach Bruno on turn one, it still dosen't matter. Bruno can always spell away. No matter what tactic I possibly write for a fight against Bruno, I will always be at a huge disadvantage. If I go after Bruno right off the bat, his allie can kill me in two or three hits while I worry about Bruno. If I hide and buff first, it only gives Bruno more time to make himself and his allie stronger before dispeling my buffs. If I go after the allie first, Bruno kills me while I try to deal with it. Allowing mercs in the arena wouldn't fix this problem, because it would only make more people have allies for Brackin to face alone. It is not Brackin's concept to have an allie. We need to be thinking about how to make it fair for people who don't want allies, not how to give everyone one. Thats why I proposed the idea about grouping by ECL instead of level. It was rejected as too much work for MO though. Well, now the arena has 3 people who can work on the roster. With 3 people splitting the workload, it wouldn't really be that much work. We need to make it so that people who don't want allies can still compet. That should be our focus. Not on how to give everyone access to allies.
^Rayne^ 03-03-04, 07:38 PM	^ I agree with almost everything you said Motherbast and I also don't plan on either of my kobolds working with allies. They are meant as solo PC's. Many of the people with strong allies are working on ways to become invincible in this system. Two members in a group (even if the 2nd is -2ecl) are still going to prove better than one. The solo gladiator (which I thought was the point of this arena) shouldn't be forced to bring in a helper to compete. Now I'm starting to think the only thing that should be allowed in the game are animals that are part of a characters class feature (animal companions, familiars, and paladin mounts). If you want a PC based around mounts I feel some sympathy for you but not when your mount is built around swallowing other players whole! Motherbast I feel nothing but sympathy for your situation and I don't like where I see this discussion headed. Seeing as I'm not one of the elders it looks like I have very little say in this.
kattattack22 03-03-04, 07:40 PM	Originally posted by MotherBast We need to make it so that people who don't want allies can still compet. That should be our focus. Not on how to give everyone access to allies. I agree totally. We need to limit allies either by extra cost (say a fee based on the HD of creature for the monster fight) or HD caps, but not expand them further.
Magagumo 03-03-04, 08:12 PM	Hmm, I'm sorry everyone thinks they are just fighting Agamemmnon... because he's only killed 1-2 people. Look at Jindl, Bruno killed him and Nox with his own spells. Sure, I could just come in without an ally, heck, I could probably hide for rounds buffing, but I need to defend Aga now. Obviously, I can't complain about it that much. 2. How do you ECL a skeleton? or most of the monsters in MM? They surely don't have them. Also, how do you think killing these monsters is easy? Did you see Cat vs. the Cauchemar? He had to retreat twice for being beaten on, and Bruno lost his old skel and nearly died from massive damage! I love my giants, but they are insanely dangerous! As for the solo gladiator, that destroys several classes completely, and as Cat said, allowing allies helped against druids and paladins. I'm stopping here, because we all know I'm biased, but so is everyone else on this thread. You try staring at Iron or Harvester and think how you're going to survive when they cast silence on you. Or how about glancing at Rito and Brackin when you realize that any spell you throw at them will likely be resisted, right before they crush you in a death grasp.... That's when you realize why I grab skeletons, because I want a chance too.
Ethendril 03-04-04, 03:54 PM	How do you ECL a skeleton? or most of the monsters in MM? They surely don't have them. ECL=HD+LA So a creature with no LA listed is LA 0, so its ECL is the same as its HD.
Magagumo 03-04-04, 04:12 PM	Um.. yea, I'm afraid that literally screws necromancers. Ever see the CR on a 12 HD skeleton? It's a 6... Druids of 14th level would get a Dire Bear (CR 7) and they arent spending cash, or killing the creature, and have various ways of buffing them ;) Honestly, Aga is a CR 8... people just don't use Power Attack against him, or ignore him. We've got skewed perceptions because certain builds haven't reached the higher levels (the Power Attacking Barbarian, for example), and that's not because of cohorts. I was sad not to see Alathar Vierce come back, as his character was a champ. But yea, CR 8 is really minor in a 13th level fight, ro a 12th one, it doesn't even raise the gladiators CR by one (it would need to be CR 10 to do so), so I'm really not sure the ECL thing is the way to go with Skeletons.
Arstimis 03-04-04, 04:27 PM	Originally posted by Magagumo Um.. yea, I'm afraid that literally screws necromancers. Ever see the CR on a 12 HD skeleton? It's a 6... Druids of 14th level would get a Dire Bear (CR 7) and they arent spending cash, or killing the creature, and have various ways of buffing them ;) The Druid gets thier animal from a class ability. Its a major part of being a druid. Any wizard can cast 1 spell after a monster fight to get a skeleton Now tell me you dont think the Druid's class ability should be a little better
Caterane 03-04-04, 05:16 PM	Well, in same kind of sense the animate dead spell is a class ability too: the ability to cast this spell. And like a druid can just go out into the wood any freely chose his companion so can Bruno and Harvey go out and chose their companion. They even have to fight it. About Motherbast argument: We have to make sure that mercenaries won`t win the battle for a gladiator. I see Nightingale not as a combatant but more as a means to use my mounted feats without the mount beeing destroyed in 1 round (like a horse would be at this level). I needed a flying mount else I had no one to charge down there (btw charging is still FAR too difficult in the arena). We could also make the mercenary/ally ECL-3 or -4 or -5 if you`re pleased with this. An ally that much weaker shouldn´t be the main problem in the fight. What we should not do is to just say away with all allies. That didn`t work and it won`t work in future. As I said: we are here to find a way to balance the ally thing. If you just cry "AWAY WITH THEM ALL" nothing will change. Better make suggestions on how to improve the current system and how we could handle mercenaries. It`s no difference if you buy a pegasus or a giant eagle or a giant owl. They are all the same ECL with the difference that you can buy a pegasus but not the other two. These other two will be attainable as mercenaries.
Arstimis 03-04-04, 05:33 PM	Originally posted by Caterane Well, in same kind of sense the animate dead spell is a class ability too: the ability to cast this spell. And like a druid can just go out into the wood any freely chose his companion so can Bruno and Harvey go out and chose their companion. They even have to fight it. I really hope your not suggesting that a major class ability should be just, ir not less, useful as a single spell. A rogue with a good UMD could use the same scroll It`s no difference if you buy a pegasus or a giant eagle or a giant owl. They are all the same ECL with the difference that you can buy a pegasus but not the other two. These other two will be attainable as mercenaries. You can buy the other two.... If i had to make a suggestion as to what to do with allies, it would be that they could be attained by any method(includeing mercs), but the allie would always have to be ECL-3,4,or5 (decided later)
Magagumo 03-04-04, 06:41 PM	But doesn't using animate dead require one to have a caster level to control the skeleton? I suppose I don't really mind a rogue having a skeleton.. I'd love to see someone pull it off actually. In all honesty, I view UMD rogues as some of the bravest folks out there, that's risky business when a 1 actually fails the skill roll.
Caterane 03-05-04, 02:07 AM	UMD has a chance for failure thus is not possible to use outside the arena. So no rogue animaters.
Jindl 03-05-04, 09:27 AM	The mod could make the UMD roll as part of the monster fight. Also, since there is no consequence for failure (other than having to wait 24 hours before trying again), it would be a skill that in the arena you could take 10 on, in the same way we treat craft and handle animal. -Jindl
Magagumo 03-05-04, 09:38 AM	Actually, Jindl, there is a chance for failure if you roll a 1, so ti would need to occur as random chance at the end of the monster fight. Obviously, reading further now, one could keep trying as you said... yea, I suppose taking 10 would function well enough, given infinite time between fights. And, since decomposition is your friend, thee aren't problems.
barrel_master 03-06-04, 12:58 PM	Anyway, the polls are meaningless now. The decision will be made by the senior mods in the Council of Elders. But not now. We have time enough to make such an important descision and it should be well-thought. I'm sorry for saying this but that's a little disterbing. Only moh really has the authority to say things like that. As for the ally debate, I sort of side with tellish and motherblast. Why? Well, I don't really have a problem with the chauchemer or Moh's ride but I think the whole giant thing is a little much. Although I have to applaud Mo's creativity, I think the giant is one of the cases where the ally almost overshadows the character. Just as motherblast described, he must be concerned with both characters equally as both are very dangerous were as cat and moh use thier allies to ride around while the characters do their own thing.
MotherBast 03-13-04, 10:41 AM	I just thought of something I'd like to point out. If Bruno's giant (and sorry to keep using you as the example) were a gladiator by itself, and not fighting with Bruno, it would be Level 19, the highest level gladiator in the arena. But, due to the fact he is Bruno's allie, he is alowed to fight at Bruno's level, alongside Bruno. It doesn't really make a lot of sense that by himself he would fight at level 19, where as when he is with Bruno he can fight at level 12, alongside a 12th level wizard. After thinking about this for a while, I decided the ECL thing would indeed be to difficult. A much simpler solution would be to limit all non-class feature allies to the same -2 ECL that leadership imposes, with no LA being equal to 0 LA. As Mag pointed out, even with that limit, his giant is only 1 CR behind the alli a druid would have at that level, which in my opinion is probably closser than it should be. This solution would bring all allies in line as far as power levels would be concerned, and would insure that all allies remain background to the real gladiator. I think maybe the elder Mods should concider this as an option.
Caterane 03-13-04, 11:02 AM	I am with you on that. But that doesn`t solve the problem that you cannot get an ally if you haven`t a class feature (companion, spell, class skill HA, high CHA) but still want an ally. This is where the mercenaries step in. I don`t want to hear another "Booo, that`s only more allies" argument because we already HAVE allies and that fact isn`t going to change. All I want to do is to open this option for everyone and make the fights equal. I don`t want to hear another "Booo, everyone has a uber-ally then who overshadows the character" because that is not going to happen and I am just trying to change what is happening right now, every week anew. I don`t want to hear another "Booo, you`ll have a better ally than the druid" because this is not going to happen, be it that the mercenary has lower HD, or that the gold expenses balance that out. And that is exactly what I want to discuss. This discussion should be about HOW TO BALANCE mercenaries (price, ECL-2, -3, -5?, raised if dead?, monster fight?, etc). The alternative would be to let this debate fall asleep and everything just stays as it is now. It`s your choice.
MotherBast 03-13-04, 11:27 AM	Actually, I think giving access to allies to all classes is a bad idea, because it takes away from the classes who have them. It is less advantages to play a druid if everyone can hire an allie. Its less advantages to play a necro for the same reason, and it is crazy to concider using leadership, for an allie you have to equip yourself. You only get 7 feats. You get thousands and thousands of gold. It would always be better to buy temporary allies than to use one of your 7 feats to gain one. Plus, with mercs, you could buy the merc knowing who your likely to face, and talor you merc aginst them. With other allies, your going to keep the same allie for a long time, so you don't talor them to defeat a specific foe. With the -2 ECL rule, however, classes that don't have allies wouldn't be at nearly as big a disadvantage. They wouldn't need the mercs. The mercs might be a "quick fix", if allies remain as they are now, but if the -2 ECL limit is applied, I see no need for the mercs, and no reason to open the door to the possiblilitys of abuse they might provide.
Caterane 03-13-04, 11:32 AM	Posted one inch above: I don`t want to hear another "Booo, you`ll have a better ally than the druid" because this is not going to happen, be it that the mercenary has lower HD, or that the gold expenses balance that out. Response from Motherbast: Actually, I think giving access to allies to all classes is a bad idea, because it takes away from the classes who have them. Not if the mercenary is very expensive, expendable, AND weaker than any ally you get with a class feature. This discussion should be about HOW TO BALANCE mercenaries (price, ECL-2, -3, -5?, raised if dead?, monster fight?, etc).
MotherBast 03-13-04, 11:52 AM	No, the discussion should not be about "how to balance mercs", as right now, mercs are not allowed, and seeing as I only know one person who supports the idea, they are likely to never be allowed. This discussion is about allies. if you want a discussion about how to balance mercs, open one. This debate is about all allies, and how to balance all of them aginst each other. As for you valid point about the merc being 'very expensive, expendable, and weaker'... first, expendable is a good thing. Secondly, if the merc is that expensive and still weaker, then why attain one? The only reason to even concider mercs is as a counter mesure to the other allies. If they are limited to the point of being weaker that the druid allie, (which if you haven't noticed is, under the current system, the weakest allie) then how will they possibly aid you agins the real threat of the handled creatures and undead? You would just be waisting your gold on an ineffective countermesure. Apparently, a very very expensive ineffective countermesure. No, mercs would only be the way to go if the allie system is not changed, and then the merc idea would need approvel, and then careful discussion, then careful observation. Mercs really aren't even an issue unless it is decided not to impose limits on allies. If that is the case, then I would join in a debat as to how to balance mercs. Right now, the debate should be about balanceing already allowed allies. In my opinion, the -2 ECL rule would achive this balance.
Jindl 03-13-04, 12:02 PM	I'm going out of town, til tomorrow night ... but when I return, I have an idea for the allies situation which may just solve the problem. I'll post it tomorrow night. -Jindl
Druid Roxors 03-13-04, 12:03 PM	As I have previously stated, mercenaries are not a good option because people who want them will tailor his fight against the mercenary in order to beat him and afterwards, they will select an ally that best complements the fighter. For instance, a wizard with improved invisibility for a rogue, or a cleric for a fighter, or a fighter for a wizard. This will be nothing more than pokemon. And, if it weren't enough, a reduction in the power level of mercenaries will create a Desire in everyone to have them killed as soon as possible. They will rush in, kill the mercenary and continue the fight, and that is a huge loss. Just my 2cp
Ethendril 03-17-04, 03:47 PM	Originally posted by Jindl I'm going out of town, til tomorrow night ... but when I return, I have an idea for the allies situation which may just solve the problem. I'll post it tomorrow night. -Jindl @Jindl: I think you posted this four days ago...don't leave us hanging!
Jindl 03-17-04, 03:51 PM	:D - Soon, soon. Right now I am trying to revise the FAQ / Rules for clarity, and prepare a post explaining the nuances of TK. I haven't forgot about the allies thing though. I'll get it posted soon. -Jindl
MotherBast 03-29-04, 04:55 PM	This week we saw a level 5 character with a Dire Lion as an allie. I would like to point out that a Druid can not attain a Dire Lion untill level 10. Under the current system, the Handel Animal Skill allows for animal allies twice as fast and twice as powerful as the Druid's class feature. I really really think a hitdie limit needs to be applied to undead and handled animals. If not the same HD limit leadership enforces, at least do not allow them to have more HD than the ECL of the gladiator. Balance needs to be restored here. An ECL 5 gladiator with an ECL 6 allie? That isent' balance.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-29-04, 11:37 PM	I only have one thing to say about the current allies rule. "You guys made them, you guys live with them. " Tough bananas i say. I've been against allies since the start because i knew what kind of abuse can be had. Now we're seeing the effects. lol. Ah...all for the sake of making more powerfull allies and balancing out "against" those with class features that had allies and give them to those who didn't. lol To "balance" things out. LOL. Now you guys are proposing to balance THAT with mercanaries and MORE allies. Oh my. I really hope someone in the Elder Mods comes to their senses and see how wrong this is. -ToK
sshuit 03-30-04, 12:34 AM	@ll : I'm with ToK on this one. I'm at the point where I'd rather see 2 leagues. One with Allies and one without. sshuit
Pittbull 03-30-04, 01:15 AM	[QUOTE]Originally posted by sshuit [B]@ll : I'm with ToK on this one. And me too! I hate them either.
Rozman 03-30-04, 01:27 AM	This wanders slightly OT, but includes some thoughts that are part & parcel to the Allies discussion and put my Allies suggestions in context. This was originally posted in the Recruiting New Players (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=205778) thread and has been edited & updated slightly. Just a few comments from a newbie to the board: The posted objective of this board is to compare core builds against each other. Short and simple. Not neccesarily to find out which one is better (because the classes are not balanced in respect to a 1-on-1 fight in the first place) but to learn more about the mechanics, to see how certain combinations work out in combat, etc. An education experience with some competition thrown in to liven things up. Reading the fights and discussions, it looks more like a contest about who can find the: a) best (generally 1-shot) magic item to win the day, especially at lower levels. How much do I learn about my character when I get Quaal's feather tokened or Fireballed at ECL 2? or b) best animal companion/cohort/handled animal/raised critter/Paladin's mount. The mechanics of how this arena are set up seem to be removing the focus from the build and placing it on other neat things you can find in the rules. If I poke around on a board and find such a drastic difference between the posted goal and the actual implementation, I might not be inclined to participate. Shifting back to the original goal may help. These are some rather drastic proposals, but I think they help return the arena to the posted intent: Since each character is actually fighting a series of 1-off battles, use the 1-shot adventure rules from the DMG (pg. 199) where 1-use items cost 5x, and charged items start with 1/5 of their full charge. However, when you start your next fight, you get your scrolls/potions back, and your wands recharge to 10 charges. Crafters pay 70% of 5x, which is 350%. Ban Leadership and Improved Familiar. Allow only the original basic list of companions/mounts for Druid/Ranger/Paladin, of course advanced as appropriate based on class level. This still allows the use of their class abilities while limiting the continued escalation of critters in the arena. And what is to be learned from Leadership? Surprise! 2-on-1 is better than 1-on-1, and the disparity grows as you gain levels. For Handled animals, allow only the purchaseable animals on the list in the PHB. How much does that Hydra reflect on your ability to defeat other PC's in the arena? At higher ECL's you should be outshining your critter anyway. EQ can be purchased to increase your mount's abilities as you increase in levels. Plus, if you really wanted a mount that would get better over time, you'd have played a Paladin. I'd even want to see an ECL cap enforced; Heavy Warhorses are beefier in combat than most (all?) PC's at ECL 2. Fight 2 fights at each ECL, then bump automatically. I'm more interested in seeing how I do against a variety of builds than I am in advancing quickly. However, some builds take time to take off, so we don't want davancement to be too slow. It should however still be a reward for those who stick around and keep their characters active, and it will still limit the number of (lengthy) high-levels fights that have to be run. I guess what I'm really trying to say is: Why does this Coliseum exist? How are you furthering its ends by cluttering the arena with more junk that is only indirectly related to the PC build? We will not end up comparing the color of our cloaks by limiting our options. Unlimited options lead to less variety by bowing to the lowest common denominator. Anyone remember the Arms Race?
MotherBast 03-30-04, 07:30 AM	Tellish: Actually, the only person who has supported Mercs is CAT. The idea recived 0 support, and has, thankfully, fadded away. I don't expect to see Mercs ever appearing in the arena. Also, I don't think those who orrigonaly supported Allies saw the level of abuse that was possible. Now that it is apparent, it is necessary to step in and correct the problem. That is the responsibility of the Elders, including yourself. You know as well as I do that the current system is far removed from balanced. It is our job to correct that. After that PM you sent me reguarding balance in the arena, I would think this is a cause you would become active in.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-30-04, 07:57 AM	Oh, i fully agree MB...but up until now, noone has sided with me on this anti-allies thing. I've been left out in the cold at the expense of pc's wanting to "keep up with the Jones'" so to speak. And as for anyone not forseeing this, i did. And i did make my voice heard back when it was originally debated. I would like to see a step back towards purely core builds. And that means eliminating as many house-rules as possible. Some though, are absolutely fantastic arena rules. Like the "taking 10" rule on crafting and stuff. Kudo to MO to have the foresight on this. And no i don't think builds will only differ by the color of their cloaks, like c'mon really. I see a lot of different builds and progressions out there right now that don't use allies. A build isn't determined by it's ally. Take for example my Bear-Build that i'm making. If i wanted to, he'd start ECL 9, and his first fight would be a monster fight against a Purple Worm. That would be his mount, and the bear would bea Huge Humanoid. I mean, really, i hope i'm not the only one who sees just how terribly wrong that is. I've opted not to go that way for him simply out of respect for the arena and what MO originally created it for: To Test Core Builds. Not rp'away to our hearts content and try to boon-doggle, smooth-talk our way into unfair advantages. We need to step back a bit and focus more on the build, instead of breaking something that was made broken in the first place. -ToK
Caterane 03-30-04, 10:09 AM	IMO allies are part of many character builds. If you play a necromancer in your campaign (like I did with Vandaeris) he doesn`t walk alone but would have several undead as bodyguards. What about mounted builds? Do you think they still sit on a light warhorse at level 20? If you are bringing up the "test builds" argument then I can easily counter it with saying that in campaigns are far far far more powerful allies possible. And I`m not even talking about non-core stuff. If we go purely without allies (except class features) then I can give the 1st Harvester a final rest. It would destroy all mounted builds because a warhorse will be dead in less than a round at higher levels. Next thing is that a horse cannot fly but battles will be taken to the sky the higher the level. Again, no mounted builds. The Harvester has Nightingale and Crimson but I use them primarily as mounts. Even Nightingale died in 2 rounds against Iron so where`s the inbalance here? Tellish, I`ve noticed that your examples are way exaggerated; not for the first time. You ECL 9 bear will have 6 HD so if you now tell me how you are planning to get a Purple worm? Even charisma-god Ixidor can only aquire a Dire lion. Your last example involved a lvl 2 character having a 10HD uber monster. Again, that is not going to happen, even with the current rules. What we can do is making a cap at each level. I heard -2 before which should be ok. But eliminating every ally is way too strong in action.
Market_Share 03-30-04, 10:26 AM	Not to stick my nose where it doesn't belong, but i've seen a version of the bear. It's 7hd actually, with max ranks 10 in handle animal, 14 charisma, skill focus handle animal, animal affinity, circlet of persuasion, cloak +4 (maybe +6) and one other thing i can't put my finger on. It was just to see how broken it can be made, but not the final version obviously. It's not that i'm against allies, i have my own elephant, but Spike's build is decent without it. Pale-Rider uses a horse at 9th level and has yet to have it die on him. In fact even my light war horse has served me very well. Just shrugging my shoulders here, i don't see the big deal of having them or not having them or why all the fuss to "simulate a campaign" because it sure isn't. It's just testing builds vs builds. I plan on re-making Pale soon. I feel he could be better optimized and i feel that's what the true flavor of the CoCo should be. Try, try, try, instead of bigger, better, stronger. Just because you make a druid and have animal companions and can flamestrike my heavy warhorse in one shot, why then do i need to "make up a rule" to get allies myself to compete? Builds are balanced as they are. Leadership exists for this purpose. My thoughts on this would be to ax home-made companions (animate, handle animals) and keep everything else that's core. Purchased mounts from MM, Phb, improved familiar, leadership etc. Stuff that EVERYONE can enjoy, and if they so wish to focus a build around it, power to them. Just my 2cp. SPIKE
Myrridin 03-30-04, 10:35 AM	Going to throw my hat in here too. I'm playing a wizard who's a good character, with a low CHA. This is my choice, I know. I don't plan on getting an ally with him, as I think the idea that a good character has a massive undead servant is silly. Same things with clerics casting healing spells and having undead servants, just doesn't make sense in my head. But yeah, so no ally here, and I'll probably be at a major disadvantage at the higher levels. I just like the idea of seeing how far I can go, and how well I can fight without one.
Market_Share 03-30-04, 10:42 AM	Why would you feel disadvantaged? I don't feel disadvantaged at all with just a horse. Try and tell me Johan Talyana is suffering without an ally. Bhaha. Iron made it almost all they way without his raptor. Jindl just has his class ability, Bilo and brackin are solo'ers. So, uh, tell me again how allies are important? SPIKE
Jindl 03-30-04, 10:56 AM	Well, I had a thought on how to incorporate more allies to balance things, but I really think less allies is the solution. Personally, I'd like to see handle animal allies and animate dead allies go bye-bye. I think they are the two most powerful types, the two most open to abuse, and the two that are rarely/never allowed in campaigns. I have to agree that allowing Leadership, Improved Familiar, Animal Companions, Special Mounts, and purchased creatures (those with listed prices only) will cover the needs of the mounted builds, etc. If you're worried that your light warhorse won't survive, then buy a pegasus, or take Leadership and get a nightmare. Both choices would be more balanced than the current situation. If the Elders were to vote right now on fixing the allies situation, that is what I would vote for. (That makes 3 of us, do you think we can get 2 more to agree? Maybe LL, Snark, and/or Magagumo? Both Cat and Mo are quite clear/steadfast on their opinions. -Jindl
Caterane 03-30-04, 11:00 AM	How can I get a nightmare with leadership? What`s the formula anyway?
Jindl 03-30-04, 11:16 AM	Leadership allows for a cohort with an ECL of 2 less than your character level. A nightmare has 6 HD +4 LA = ECL 10, making it an appropriate cohort for a level 12 character. Keep in mind that a real nightmare retains his smoke/plane shifting/fiery hooves/intelligence, etc that an undead one does not. Or, you could buy an obsidian steed, which has most of the same abilities as a regular nightmare, but without having to spend a feat. As it stands, the Harvester has an allie which is an appropriate cohort for a Level 21 character (if it were alive). I don't think it being undead weakens it to the point where it is appropriate for a level 9 character (when Harvey first got Nightingale). Note: I'm not singleing you out. Bruno is just as bad, with his Storm giant skeletons. And Iron's megaraptor gives him significant advantages that he would not find with a more legal mount (huge size, pounce, high speed, great skills, etc). -Jindl
Druid Roxors 03-30-04, 11:22 AM	Take your character level, add your charisma modifier and thats your leadership score. You have special modifiers for cool-ness et all. Harvester (second avatar) has 9 hd and -1 cha. He has a Leadership score of 8 + any modifiers like glory and renoun. Acording to the table within the feat description, a score of 8 yields a level 5 character as a cohort. Harvester is not charismatic enough to take a nightmare.
Caterane 03-30-04, 11:29 AM	Obsidian steed has 30 hp. You´re kidding if you think that this will survive a single round. A normal nightmare is large only (not big enough for Harvey) and I won`t get it with Cha 8. And even then it only has 45 hp *yawns* As it stands, the Harvester has an allie which is an appropriate cohort for a Level 21 character (if it were alive). I don't think it being undead weakens it to the point where it is appropriate for a level 9 character (when Harvey first got Nightingale). At lvl 9 I nearly spent 3000 gold to fight it. Look, all I want to have is a mount that can fly at an acceptable speed and survive for a few rounds. I don`t care if it can attack or not or make a smoke fart to nauseat everyone, just a stupid mount appropriate for a lvl 13 arena gladiator. Iron`s megaraptor isn`t that good, really. Pounce, eh? What does it have? +7 attack? Now if that is going to hit you at lvl 13 I would reconsider my defensive equipment. Iron wants to have a mount too that all. Bruno`s undead is a different matter. This skeleton is clearly there for extra firepower. I think he would be formidable without it though.
Myrridin 03-30-04, 11:43 AM	Originally posted by Market_Share Why would you feel disadvantaged? I don't feel disadvantaged at all with just a horse. Try and tell me Johan Talyana is suffering without an ally. Bhaha. Iron made it almost all they way without his raptor. Jindl just has his class ability, Bilo and brackin are solo'ers. So, uh, tell me again how allies are important? SPIKE Bruno and his Storm Giant skeleton, the Undead Red Dragon for Harvy 2. I know they'd be formidable without them. With them it's hard to compete. Johan summons, which is valid as a character concept. It's also creating temporary allies. I have no problem with it, it's cool. I think that Johan will continue to climb as well. What's Brackin's record again? Compared to the others? I like the idea of having allies, but in the case of Candy, it's 2v1 if you don't have one. I know that Sanzin dies...pretty much every battle, but that does take some heat off Candy for a couple rounds.
Ethendril 03-30-04, 11:55 AM	I think that rather than taking a drastic step (eliminating HA and undead allies), we should take a smaller step, which is capping the allies. Leadership uses ECL-2. The Thaumaturgist Planar Cohort has ECL-2. I think there is precidence for using this formula (or it could even be ECL -3 if people want even less emphasis on allies). Some have argued that undead may need a different formula, but I don't think the cohort should have more HD than the gladiator. I just don't think we should kill necromancers or completely eliminate handle animal, but I think we should bring them in line with other allies. Everyone wants the gladiator to be the star of the show, but I think we can accomplish that with less drastic means. -Ethendril
Myrridin 03-30-04, 01:01 PM	Ethendril: I like that solution. If we limit the cohorts and allies of everyone to ECL -2, then at least it's fair. Though for a Druid's animal companion, how do we want to run that?
Druid Roxors 03-30-04, 01:19 PM	For the most part, Druid animal companions are fine. Animals have a much lower ECL related to HD than other monsters. Watch the Dire bear, 12 hd and you gain it at 13th level. Its ECL is only 7 though. Since this (and paladin mounts) are class features, they need no reworking.
Magagumo 03-30-04, 02:54 PM	I'll be honest, I love my giant skeletons dearly, but I find myself defending them more often than not (you'll notice Bruno could go Ethereal for several rounds, but what happens when the storm giant is left alone?). In fact, I've avoided killing a new one because I 've been thinking... In all honesty, I only desire a skeleton to defend me against two characters in the entire arena... Harvester and Nightingale, and Iron and Anticus. Seriously, Nox is vicious, but Bruno's killed him one or two times. Snark knows Bruno can dispel Monk-Bane, and all the Leaership cohorts are very reasonable (Zorander and Candy keep tussling, and Sanzin has remained only an unfriendly side note). If we completely eliminated all non-cost Handle Animals (Megaraptor, Elephant, and Gorgon) and Undead Allies (Nightingale, Red Dragon Zombie) I would happily stop animating my giant prey. @Cat I believe Nightingale has won you at least one fight since you last got "it"? If not, then I say you should be reiumbursed.. but Agamemmnon helped several times before going down, so I accept his loss. I'll sell his stuff soon enough, and enjoy my freedom from mindless constructions... @Cat, Moh, & Spike As not having a mount, I suppose you could either stop being Enlarged, or find another alternative... but I think the huge mounts need to come to an end. Some of you aren't dependent on being mounted, and can remain massive builds... the charger might need to get himself a new pet...
Caterane 03-30-04, 03:03 PM	Bah, a complete type of build eliminated! We could rule that Nightingale and Crimson cannot attack. I really really just need a good and cool mount. Don`t let me ride a spider eater :mad:
Magagumo 03-30-04, 03:22 PM	The build isn't eliminated (The Large Charger is, but thats the way the cookie crumbles), it just needs re-tooling. In order to cope with fliers, the HArvester has a number fo options: 1. Use his powerful 6th level spells to blast them out of the sky. 2. Feed his powerful ground-based mount a fly potion. 3. Pick up the nastiest legal flyer in the MM... Griffons are tough SOBs, with 59 hp (before you start putting buff items on them) and have a fly of 80'... they also pounce and can provide a hand with slaying your enemies. Personally, Cat, I think the Griffon is the way to go.. I know animating undead is fun, I enjoy it too, but there are a lot of complications in doing so in a 1 v 1 (usually) environment. As for the Enlarge Persons... I wonder if we could allow them to be "sold" for half price, as we changed rules mid-way, and I'd like to see Iron, Spike, and Harvester get a little recompensence. Also, to help our boys here, perhaps people could look for other good legal mounts besides griffon? I have Griffon, Pegasus, & Spider Eater off the top of my head. As for the Gorgon, I suppose Anna's cohort would be handling the carrying, Jindl? (I would suspect centaur, but you are always good for a surprise :)).
Caterane 03-30-04, 04:09 PM	We shouldn`t use ECL because that reflects nothing. A large zombie dragon has 20 HD. Compare that to a Solar with 22 HD. If we want to restrict allies based on a cap then CR is the way to go. So a zombie dragon is CR 6 compared to CR 20 for a solar. The 2nd Harvester can keep his dragon and the 1st keeps Nightingale (CR 7). In order to cope with fliers, the HArvester has a number fo options: You`re kidding, right? Let`s see... 1. Use his powerful 6th level spells to blast them out of the sky. I want to play a CHARGER and not a ranged spell slinger. If I wanted to play a wizard I`d make one. 2. Feed his powerful ground-based mount a fly potion. CL 5, autodispelled at lvl 13. Oh and 750 gp plus a move+standard action. 3. Pick up the nastiest legal flyer in the MM... Griffons are tough SOBs a) 7000 gold b) the beast dies just as quick ...with the difference being the 7000 gold I just wasted on a one shot item c) Str 18, it cannot fly with a fullplated Harvester d) looks stupid and is not half as cool as an undead Really great options. :rolleyes:
Myrridin 03-30-04, 04:22 PM	Originally posted by Magagumo As for the Gorgon, I suppose Anna's cohort would be handling the carrying, Jindl? (I would suspect centaur, but you are always good for a surprise :)). Just for my knowledge, how is Anna able to have a Gorgon for a pet? Aren't they untameable?
Magagumo 03-30-04, 04:24 PM	Well Cat, you are the one obsessed with a flying mount, I'm afraid your options are limited by your character choice. If you consult most non-Core flying mount prestige classes (Windrider & Skylord) they focus on lightly armored archers, not heavily armored chargers. You could cast Airwalk on a solid ground-based mount (as Iron did with Anticus), as I suppose we could hunt down some nice oens there too. Also, you are highly negative regarding the strength of your mount, but you have Mounted Combat, which negates many issues with the mount being attacked. As for your area-effect spells, you could always cast Resist or Protection from Energy. Not all builds are equally successful, as Paladin produce tougher mounts then any cleric. I suppose allowances could be made with HD of the skeletal mount (or Handled Animal) equalling no more than the gladiators HD-2, but I'm not sure that will give you what you want. I don't think many Huge flyers exist at that level, this is for sure.
Caterane 03-30-04, 04:31 PM	Why do we use ECL instead of CR? HD don`t tell much about the strength but CR includes all abilities aswell.
MotherBast 03-30-04, 04:33 PM	Cat and Mag: Don't jump the gun here. I don't think the Arena needs to see Undead and Animals go Bye Bye. I just think they need to have limits. As pointed out already, Bruno's Giant, if it were a gladiator, would be ECL 18. Yet, since it is an allie, it fights at the ECL 12 level with Bruno. Ix's Dire Lion actually had a higher ECL, and chalange rating, than Ix himself did in the last battle. These are the kinds of things that need fixing. I whole heartedly agree with Cat that some builds will require allies at higher levels. A mounted charger needs a sturdy flying mount. A necromancer needs an undead, if for image only. We shouldn't ban these allies. Simply by imposing the same limit on them that already exists on other allies, balance will restore itself. The -2 ECL is perfect. It allowes Harvy and Bruno to both have 11HD allies, more than enough to survive a few rounds. Animals, with no LA, will also be max HD for the level. So Iron can have an 11HD dino, which if I'm not mistaken, is 3 higher than necessary for a Mega-Raptor. This way, Everyone gets to keep their allies, but only the power curve is changed. Harvy has to drop to an 11HD mount (which shouldn't be a problem for him.) and Bruno will have to settle for an 11HD giant (which defanatly wont be a problem for him.) Also, under the new system, these allies would be restored for free, like all other allies, since they are now "balanced" aginst the other allies. Monster fights might even not be necessary any longer, except for the simple coolness of them. The -2 ECL rule would allow all builds to continue to function unhindered, and would restore balance among allies. Classes without allies, such as Brackin, would still be slightly disadvantaged, but not nearly so much as they were. Bruno's current allie can kill a fully buffed Brackin with one full attack. I doubt I will have that fear aginst an 11HD giant, but it will still be a force to contend with, and will serve the purpose Bruno has for it, Meat Shield. Harvy could be just as successful on an 11HD flyer as he is on his current flyer, but it is not as dangerous as his current one. Neither build needs to undergo any changes, nor do they need to retire. Even Handle Animal focused characters can still compet. Plus, If Harvy and Bruno weren't using all of the HD they can control on one creature, they could create 2 or 3 different undead, and force the opponit to guess which one was comming to the arena. Not as powerful, but more tactical options..... Anyway, banning the allies right out is not a good idea. A return to balance is all that should be necessary.
Druid Roxors 03-30-04, 04:36 PM	I believe that CR should be used instead of ECL for the purposes of Handle animal and undead. Any class with companions as a feature (paladin, ranger, druid, wizard) is extempt of this system. Nevertheless, I believe that -2 to CR is not enough. Take for instance the strongest of all Class feature companions, the druid's. A dire bear has 12 hd and CR 7, he gains it at level 13! Under the current system, a level 9 character could get the same creature with a good HA score. The CR system should work at -4 or -3 at least.
Caterane 03-30-04, 04:44 PM	I will second every suggestion that lets me keep Crimson and Nightingale since I don`t think they do anything else then serve as a mount, perhaps attack once but they`re pretty weak attackers. I would even remove their teeth if that drops its CR and lets me keep it. I just don`t want to build a character, play it for many months just to get it ripped away. The Harvester is one of the oldest characters on the roster; it worked fine until now. Mag, sure I can buff my donkey mount for 10 rounds, then begin protecting me for another 10 rounds, and all the while the enemy is sitting on his starting position and having lunch. @Druid: CR-4 sounds fine. That`s equal to the druids companion but the druid's ally gets nice benefits on top of that and it is replaced for free. Fair enough.
Magagumo 03-30-04, 04:53 PM	@ Druid As far as I can tell, the Druid gains treats their Animal companion's CR like a wizard treats his spell levels. A Druid of 13th level +1= 14/2= 7 CR Just as a 13th wizard+1=14/2= 7th level spells. If one were wishing to work from this system, then perhaps we should consider the Animal Handler/Undead Raiser as 2 levels lower (4 perhaps, but this seems a little much)? Thusly, Harvester is a 13th character, and thusly is treated as an 11th level character, granting him access to a CR 6? That's a skeleton with 12-14 HD,. meaning he still can have the Cauchemar at 15th level. Personally, I'm done with skeletons, but I don't want to see Cat completely screwed here. Since Handle Animal is a skill (not a spell or Class feature) perhaps they should eb considered 4 levels lower? I would still say warhorses are available from the beginning, but it helps to keep down the rampant training... Iron is considered a 9th character, so he can have a CR 5 creature.. obviously, he won't eb gettign any big monsters for awhile, and the purple worm is happily out of sight. I'm not giving approval to these systems, as I wpuld prefer no Handle Animals (unpriced) or skeletons, but I'm just giving people things to mull over.
MotherBast 03-30-04, 04:53 PM	Well, why don't we elders put it to a vote. It seems the options are: #1: Ban all non-class feature allies, purchased allies, or cohorts. #2: Restrict all non-class feature, or purchased allies to -2 ECL. #3: Restrict all non-class feature, purchased, or chohort allies to -4 CR. #4: Leave allies as they are. These seem to be the options. Why don't you go set up a vote on the elder thread? with 4 seprate options, I don't belive the 5 vote to decide should be necessary, just the majority should do. Shouldn't take more than a week to settle the issue.
Caterane 03-30-04, 05:03 PM	MB, I first want to discuss it here. We`re making progress lately. BTW, I have no problem with Ixidor fighting without a Dire lion. It`s there to aid surviving the lower levels until Ixidor is stronger.
Druid Roxors 03-30-04, 05:11 PM	So, If a druid gains his companions using that formula (good catch Magagumo) then perhaps others can use it in the same way and perhaps not add the +1. In other words: 13th level Druid: (13 + 1)/2 = CR 7 13th level Cleric: (13 + 0)/2 = CR 6.5 -> CR 6 that could work quite fine. Or they could be equivalent to the druid's companion since they do not have special abilities (easier control, bonus tricks, bonus hd, etc). What I fear is that no ranger/wizard/sorcerer/paladin will want to use their own class features since 1/2companions/familiars/pala-mounts will be underpowered and still consume an "Ally slot"
MotherBast 03-30-04, 06:03 PM	I fear the same as Druid. I think the Class allie should be the most powerful allie in the arena. Everything else should be about equal, with Leadership probably being the second most powerful, as it requires the most commitment. (A feat, as opposed to a spell or a skill.) Leadership imposes the -2 ECL cap on its cohorts. Making everything else follow this same cap will keep all allies on the same level. Then, Leadership will still have a slight edge, because it allows classed cohorts, wich will be more powerful than Undead or Animals... in most cases at least.
Druid Roxors 03-30-04, 07:55 PM	This is something to which I wanted to arrive. A level 5 human wizard is a CR 5 Creature right? Most of the time, a cohort's CR will be the same as his class levels. ECL and CR can be used interchangebly when speaking of leadership cohorts. Using this, we can say that a level 10 character with the leadership feat and high charisma will be able to get a level 8 monk or CR 8 monk. Its the same. By balancing the arena using CR instead of ECL we can arrive at a more accurate representation of our allie's power. With that said, leadership cohorts are the strongest type of ally there is. A druid "should" come in second, by basing all other cohorts on a (lvl/2=CR) formula we can construct at a much more balanced ruleset that what we have now.
MotherBast 03-30-04, 08:40 PM	Actually, the CR of an Arena cohort will not be equal to its level. For a classed cohort to have CR = to level, it would also have to recive the propper amount of gold/equipment for its level. A large part of a classed character's CR is EQ. With arena cohorts having no EQ of their own, the CR of the classed cohort is reduced by 1 to 3, depending on the level of the cohort.
Druid Roxors 03-30-04, 09:07 PM	Ah yes, I had forgotten about that House-Rule. In any case, a druid's animal companion is of a very similar level to a cohort within the arena. The CR formula should be implemented to limit other forms of allies taking into consideration that leadership and Animal Companions should reign supreme.
cellardweller 03-30-04, 11:52 PM	Originally posted by Market_Share Try and tell me Johan Talyana is suffering without an ally. Bhaha. Yvonne the Half-Celestial Blink Dog would say that you spoke a little too soon ;). My vote would go for ECL-2. Leadership would allow a nightmare at L12 currently both handle animal and animate dead both allow access significantly earlier which I don't believe is appropriate.
Caterane 03-31-04, 01:29 AM	Why the hell should a druids companion be the most powerful one? No way!! First of all, you have to do nothing to get one. You don`t need to spend skill points in handle animal, you don`t have to put expensive ability points in charisma, perhaps even buy a circlet or a cloak, you don`t have to take a feat, nothing. Then the companion gets replaced for free. How many times had I seen that the companion is used as cannon fodder. No one else can afford this! Bruno always protected his giant, and the Harvester would always make sure his companions survive - thus spending ressources, spells and time. That`s another HUGE bonus. You also don`t have to make a monster fight. At the moment I count every credit and a monster fight which counts for 2 is not possible for me, else it delays my new character for another week. Again, druids have to do nothing! The druids companion has some really nice abilities. Most notably share spells! While the Harvester has to memorize every spell twice (for him and mount) the druid only memorizes one each, and even then he spends one round instead of two ...per spell!! That`s so HUGE! What about Link? Evasion? Multiattack? Improved evasion? and many more... Druids are already powerful without their companion. It`s a nice bonus to have one but that`s it. Now making his companion the most powerful one is WAY OFF! All these druid faction cries "Whaaa, my companion is so weak! Let`s eliminate every other ally so that the druid is at least a bit competivable :rolleyes: Come on! What`s up!? I agree that a Dire lion is too much for a ECL 6 character but I don`t agree that class allies should be the most powerful ones. In fact, they should even be the least powerful ones but we can discuss this. If you think leadership will get you a better ally then take the feat, put points in charisma, ...you`ll soon realize that it isn`t that easy to do and how handy your class ally is.
Rozman 03-31-04, 02:03 AM	Originally posted by Caterane Why the hell should a druids companion be the most powerful one? No way!! Because even more valuable than Stat Points, Skill Points or Feats are Levels. Druids/Paladins/Rangers give up the most in order to get their animal companions. Levels are the most precious commodity in any character build, especially when it comes to spellcasters. You can't just "dip" into the class and pick up the ability either. You have to invest all of/most of your levels in that class in order to gain a productive companion. Not to make any kind of argument that Druids & Rangers don't get amazing bonuses on top of the creature in the first place. Simply that those with companions as a class ability make a significantly larger investment in that ability than any of the other companion "builds."
Tellish_of_Ket 03-31-04, 06:04 AM	@Cat: now you're just being silly. First off i wish you'd read a little better. A griffon doesn't cost 7k. It's 7k if you want to buy an already hatched griffon, and then you gotta spend 1500 to have it trained for you. So it's really 8,500 gp. HEhehe. Stop being so pesimistic. :D If you have sufficient handle animal ranks however, (+15 handle animal check), you can train it yourself and just spend 3500 for the egg. Quite the worthy investment as this can be achieved long before you reach 9th level. Now if only there was a way to get a Huge Griffon. -ToK
Caterane 03-31-04, 06:06 AM	...or +15 handle animal with a Cha 8 cleric. No chance. And even then, if I spent all my skill points in crossclass handle animal and have no concetration left, and put a 14 in charisma instead of 8 (= 6 points less in consti? dex?), 3500 gp is still WAY TO MUCH! And I still won`t get it before lvl 10. And it will die at lvl 11, if I`m lucky. You see, this is no option. So every voice that cries to ban all allies should better provide some useful advice on how to really find a solution. Originally posted by Rozman: Because even more valuable than Stat Points, Skill Points or Feats are Levels. Oh no! I have to take a level in druid!! Only full spellcasting progression, cleric bab and cleric hp, able to wear fullplates and even retain the armor bonus in wildshape!! Oh my god! How am I going to survive? And the scimitar is so bad a weapon! I wish I could wield a dagger, or a butterknife! But no! Wildshape into Tyrannosaurus Rex and still cast spells!? What`s that? Druids are so broken. The only thing that balances it a bit out is my mighty dachshund but it is nerfed too! http://www.1a-network.de/grafik/guestbook/smilies/heul.gif Rozman, part 2: Simply that those with companions as a class ability make a significantly larger investment in that ability than any of the other companion "builds." But I will take the level druid! I will make this big sacrifice! I HAVE to make this sacrifice because my companion is the only thing I have. Because without my companion I am just a commoner.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-31-04, 06:19 AM	Originally posted by Caterane ...or +15 handle animal with a Cha 8 cleric. No chance. And even then, if I spent all my skill points in crossclass handle animal and have no concetration left, and put a 14 in charisma instead of 8 (= 6 points less in consti? dex?), 3500 gp is still WAY TO MUCH! And I still won`t get it before lvl 10. And it will die at lvl 11, if I`m lucky. You see, this is no option. So every voice that cries to ban all allies should better provide some useful advice. Summon monser VI: fiendish rhino, gargantuan centipede, huge spider can make decent mounts. Or just fireseed, fireseed, fireseed, flamstrike, flamestrike, flamestrike. -ToK