Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Caterane 10-26-05, 03:44 PM	The Core Coliseum Tavern - The 4th Incarnation - http://www.caterane.de/CoCo/Struktur/Gladius-River.jpg This is the Tavern of the Core Coliseum. Here, all gladiators meet to chat, drink, and sometimes even brawl. You can ask questions, talk to others, or write whatever you want as long as it does not violate the Code of Conduct (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=community/coc). You can't really go wrong here. Newcomers who want to make a character should use the Quickstart Guide or read the Rules of Gladius. Links to the old Taverns: - Core Coliseum Tavern I (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=192697) - Core Coliseum Tavern II (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=348562) - Core Coliseum Tavern III (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=444341)
Tellish_of_Ket 10-26-05, 03:48 PM	Please continue your tavern conversations here. We are about to lose Tavern III due to pruning very shortly. This has been a public service announcement brought to you by your friendly Core Colliseum Elders. -ToK
NiQil 10-26-05, 03:48 PM	W00t! :w00t: New Tavern thread!
One_Winged_Angel 10-26-05, 03:53 PM	Ph33|2 d4 47|-|!!! Ph33|2 \/\/17|-| g|234t ph33|2. Fun fun for everyone!
Snommelp 10-26-05, 03:59 PM	Right... what were we talking about? Pegasi and training, but that got resolved... so did monk/paladin multi-classing... how about this: do I remember correctly when I remember reading that we can play races listed with LA +X (cohort)?
King Uther 10-26-05, 04:03 PM	Yes you can, Snommelp. Cat has a pegasus PC on the first page of the characters thread if you want confirmation.
Snommelp 10-26-05, 04:10 PM	Yes you can, Snommelp. Cat has a pegasus PC on the first page of the characters thread if you want confirmation. Excellent! Time to make a Gray Render... do his mental scores have to be a certain level? Because Gray Renders have -8 intelligence... And yes, I realize I need far more credits than I currently have to activate a Gray Render character.
MysticMonk2005 10-26-05, 04:13 PM	Mmm a spiffy new tavern. I still remember when we still used the first Tavern :P
TelinArtho 10-26-05, 04:14 PM	For ammunition, is the cost of special materials added to each item individually or to each unit bought? 20 Silver Arrows 1gp + 2gp = 3gp or 20 Silver Arrows 1gp + 2gp*20 = 41gp
Iced 10-26-05, 04:15 PM	@Snommelp minimum int for a character is 3 so if you put no pints into int you'll still have a 3 for the Gray Render. If I have an EL4 character that has won 3 EL3 matches and MQ 1 at EL1 how much experience will he have if I add a lycanthrope template to him with 6HD in animal? That would be an 8EL raise in power and put him in the EL12 league.
Snommelp 10-26-05, 04:18 PM	@Snommelp minimum int for a character is 3 so if you put no pints into int you'll still have a 3 for the Gray Render.Is that how it works? I figured it would be that you have to put enough points into INT to get a score of 3. Really cool if it's your way, though. Can anyone verify?If I have an EL4 character that has won 3 EL3 matches and MQ 1 at EL1 how much experience will he have if I add a lycanthrope template to him with 6HD in animal? That would be an 8EL raise in power and put him in the EL12 league.I'm thinking that you put him at EL 12 XP and then add whatever extra you had over the EL 4 minimum. It could be that you only get the EL 12 minimum, though.
NiQil 10-26-05, 04:24 PM	For ammunition, is the cost of special materials added to each item individually or to each unit bought? 20 Silver Arrows 1gp + 2gp = 3gp or 20 Silver Arrows 1gp + 2gp*20 = 41gp To the best of my knowledge, the price is on each item individually.
TelinArtho 10-26-05, 04:28 PM	There's two reasons I asked. 1. First of all - I have a character who paid for them all individually - so if it was going to be cheaper, I was going to adjust it. 2. Second of all, I noticed it priced as 3gp/quiver full on a particular Prisonlord individual's character sheet - and I wanted to make sure before I threw him in... Time to go post a violation...
Tellish_of_Ket 10-26-05, 04:30 PM	You would be correct to throw him in prison. It's for each unit, not the whole stack. -ToK
TelinArtho 10-26-05, 04:31 PM	Already done...
NiQil 10-26-05, 04:47 PM	There's two reasons I asked. 1. First of all - I have a character who paid for them all individually - so if it was going to be cheaper, I was going to adjust it. 2. Second of all, I noticed it priced as 3gp/quiver full on a particular Prisonlord individual's character sheet - and I wanted to make sure before I threw him in... Time to go post a violation... Something about the inmates running the prison comes to mind here....
TelinArtho 10-26-05, 04:57 PM	Its bound to happen from time to time NiQil - ever watched Shawshank - even the warden was no prince... Anyway, it looks like I'll have an unusually high number of active gladiators in the arena this week. Since I started here, I have been involved in 31 arena fights with a bunch of different characters. My record over them all is 16 wins and 15 losses (not including miniquests, quests or campaigns obviously). This week I'll have 5 active fighters in the arena including 3 summoners of Denth (ECL6, ECL4, ECL3), a sahaugin who will decimate an orc (ECL6) and a rogue/fighter that I've been toying with (ECL3). Good luck to everyone while they lose this week...
Tellish_of_Ket 10-26-05, 05:00 PM	Its bound to happen from time to time NiQil - ever watched Shawshank - even the warden was no prince... Anyway, it looks like I'll have an unusually high number of active gladiators in the arena this week. Since I started here, I have been involved in 31 arena fights with a bunch of different characters. My record over them all is 16 wins and 15 losses (not including miniquests, quests or campaigns obviously). This week I'll have 5 active fighters in the arena including 3 summoners of Denth (ECL6, ECL4, ECL3), a sahaugin who will decimate an orc (ECL6) and a rogue/fighter that I've been toying with (ECL3). Good luck to everyone while they lose this week... I would say with your record they have a 50/50 shot at it. Except for Grik maybe. I'll give him 10%. -ToK
Iced 10-26-05, 05:18 PM	I would say with your record they have a 50/50 shot at it. Except for Grik maybe. I'll give him 10%. -ToK No love for the orcs...;)
Iced 10-26-05, 05:22 PM	I'm going to have 4 characters up this week The Dire Flame (HG Psy/Mnk/Brb EL4) is going to rock anyone without potions of fly in the arena. Griff Mythal (Gnome Wiz 5 EL5) is going to magic up and take out some poor fighter dolt. The Gatekeeper (HD Barb 1 EL5) is going to MQ and level up this week Anixx the Warbringer (HE Cle 6 EL6) is crafting magic stuff
TheMagister 10-26-05, 05:23 PM	No love for the "Luk Bo" that saved your orc's ass (again!) vs. Torgirr!! (Yes, I'm still miffed about that... grrr) =) TM
TelinArtho 10-26-05, 05:23 PM	No love for orcs that are going to have a DAMN hard time winning... I don't know Snommelp's reasoning for challenging Grik against Aquin. Aquin's AC with his shield is 28 versus Grik's attack bonus of +8-+11 (depending on situation). Whereas, Aquin's own attacks vary from +5 up to +10 and only have to face off versus an AC of 20. Aquin's more than capable in a grapple (with 6-7 natural attacks and a 20str) and in a ranged battle - Aquin can simply do much more... But hey - who am I to decline a challenge from a lesser being...
TelinArtho 10-26-05, 05:24 PM	I'm going to have 4 characters up this week The Dire Flame (HG Psy/Mnk/Brb EL4) is going to rock anyone without potions of fly in the arena. Griff Mythal (Gnome Wiz 5 EL5) is going to magic up and take out some poor fighter dolt. The Gatekeeper (HD Barb 1 EL5) is going to MQ and level up this week Anixx the Warbringer (HE Cle 6 EL6) is crafting magic stuff Iced - I didn't see you respond to the Audit I did on Griff (or am I forgetting a PM you sent?). Make sure the things in there are resolved so I can close the audit. /d
Iced 10-26-05, 05:27 PM	Iced - I didn't see you respond to the Audit I did on Griff (or am I forgetting a PM you sent?). Make sure the things in there are resolved so I can close the audit. /d I went through and edited his sheet, I just didn't post it in the prison thread. I wasn't aware i was required to do so, i'll post there now.
TelinArtho 10-26-05, 05:30 PM	When fixing the character sheet - you are supposed to PM the NARC when the changes are done. Posting to the prison thread is fine - but a PM is in general better. Also, you might want to get Sunwolf to close the violation on the gatekeeper - since it seems that it was incorrect. I'll verify the changes on Griff and update the post too.
TheMagister 10-26-05, 05:30 PM	No love for orcs that are going to have a DAMN hard time winning... I don't know Snommelp's reasoning for challenging Grik against Aquin. Aquin's AC with his shield is 28 versus Grik's attack bonus of +8-+11 (depending on situation). Whereas, Aquin's own attacks vary from +5 up to +10 and only have to face off versus an AC of 20. Aquin's more than capable in a grapple (with 6-7 natural attacks and a 20str) and in a ranged battle - Aquin can simply do much more... But hey - who am I to decline a challenge from a lesser being... Hmmm. That AC *is prohibitive. Sdentch would have to bull's strength AND enlarge person AND charge WHILE raged to hit you on an 10 or better. Not counting any other defenses you could get going. Eeew. Buffing isn't exactly Sdentch's strong point. And Aquin could really shred her 49 hps. Maybe I'll challenge you anyways next week and we'll see. That's a lot of XP up for grabs, win or lose... TM
Tellish_of_Ket 10-26-05, 05:39 PM	But hey - who am I to decline a challenge from a lesser being... A bully for refusing the challenge of a GREATER being. lol lol -ToK
TelinArtho 10-26-05, 05:40 PM	I didn't refuse - I merely was already spoken for during this week (I had already accepted the challenge before it was made public). Don't worry - Krunch will get his time on the dirt of the arena. Eating it...
Snommelp 10-26-05, 05:40 PM	No love for orcs that are going to have a DAMN hard time winning... I don't know Snommelp's reasoning for challenging Grik against Aquin. Aquin's AC with his shield is 28 versus Grik's attack bonus of +8-+11 (depending on situation). Whereas, Aquin's own attacks vary from +5 up to +10 and only have to face off versus an AC of 20. Aquin's more than capable in a grapple (with 6-7 natural attacks and a 20str) and in a ranged battle - Aquin can simply do much more... But hey - who am I to decline a challenge from a lesser being... The beauty of playing Grik is that he has all negative mental modifiers. I can do anything legal with him with no more justification than "it seemed like a fun idea at the time..." EDIT: I'm curious where you get +8 to +11 from, though... Grik's lowest attack modifier is +10. Unless you're counting on staying one range increment away from Grik the entire time and having a ranged war... just remember our poor pitlord. He won't want to run 70 rounds.
Tellish_of_Ket 10-26-05, 05:42 PM	Don't worry - Krunch will get his time on the dirt of the arena. Eating it... Ok, now that has me in stiches. LOL Man that was funny. Maybe we should just do it Krunch vs Aquin. With Pale there, it would be a cake-walk. -ToK p.s. an awesome comeback btw.
NiQil 10-26-05, 05:43 PM	The beauty of playing Grik is that he has all negative mental modifiers. I can do anything legal with him with no more justification than "it seemed like a fun idea at the time..." "Grik eat fish-man. Grik hungry." Sorry....just had to...
TelinArtho 10-26-05, 05:46 PM	Hmmm. That AC *is prohibitive. Sdentch would have to bull's strength AND enlarge person AND charge WHILE raged to hit you on an 10 or better. Not counting any other defenses you could get going. Eeew. Buffing isn't exactly Sdentch's strong point. And Aquin could really shred her 49 hps. Maybe I'll challenge you anyways next week and we'll see. That's a lot of XP up for grabs, win or lose... TM Well, Aquin's already spoken for next week (He and Grik are laying the smack down on Krunch and Pale Rider next week). However, if you feel like challenging him in two weeks (by the way - he'll probably have hit ECL7 by then though...), please feel free. However, even if you could buff to that level - remember that Aquin has a fair amount of money to dispose on buffs too...
TelinArtho 10-26-05, 05:47 PM	Ok, now that has me in stiches. LOL Man that was funny. Maybe we should just do it Krunch vs Aquin. With Pale there, it would be a cake-walk. -ToK p.s. an awesome comeback btw. Pale really does hold Krunch down huh? I always thought so, but didn't want to say it to your face...
NiQil 10-26-05, 05:50 PM	LOL maybe I should get involved here and pit my entire army of ECL 3's against Pale Rider and Krunch LOL
TelinArtho 10-26-05, 05:51 PM	I'm sorry NiQil - the maximum number of Gladiators that can be involved in a match is 8 - so Pale, Krunch and half of the rest of your army would have to sit out.
TelinArtho 10-26-05, 05:52 PM	You know - this is what the last tavern was missing: Some good ole smack talk...
Usurpator 10-26-05, 05:52 PM	Maybe we should just do it Krunch vs Aquin. With Pale there, it would be a cake-walk. -ToK p.s. an awesome comeback btw. Nexa also has no problems in whacking Krunch all around the arena, but her quest is running a little late, and after the quest she first has to figure out what to do with 10,000+ gp. and a brand new craft wondrous item feat. ;) But Krunch would be hardly a challenge, maybe the Pale Rider would be more of a challenge to Nexa. :P But she still has to teach Balbanes a lesson as well, so I guess its going to be busy season. The only other option is activating Tezca (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7573203), who will also have little problem with the bragging upstart dwarf, but hey, still missing a few much needed credits. :)
TheMagister 10-26-05, 05:53 PM	Well, Aquin's already spoken for next week (He and Grik are laying the smack down on Krunch and Pale Rider next week). However, if you feel like challenging him in two weeks (by the way - he'll probably have hit ECL7 by then though...), please feel free. However, even if you could buff to that level - remember that Aquin has a fair amount of money to dispose on buffs too... After 2 weeks, Sdentch will be ECL 6, even with two losses, I think. It's doable. You already have natural armor and regular armor. All that's left is Deflection (not that that's not enough). Let's see...what else is there to boost my to-hit mod...aid, i suppose, and invisibility. Maybe haste, though we're getting awfully expensive by now. Heroism, too. I'd spend, like, 3 grand, IF she had the time to buff. I don't really care about the damage you do to HER...she's only gotta hit you like, twice with that club. BTW, I'm not sayin' it'd be easy. TM
NiQil 10-26-05, 05:53 PM	I'm sorry NiQil - the maximum number of Gladiators that can be involved in a match is 8 - so Pale, Krunch and half of the rest of your army would have to sit out. Hey....iffn I get a little luck, I might level my first character here with a win (Amantar). I've only been here...what....5 months now? LOL
TelinArtho 10-26-05, 05:58 PM	Well the thing is TheMagister - Invisibility won't help - Aquin's got his nifty necklace to solve that problem. As to what I can do to boost AC? Well Deflection is a big one: Potion of Shield of Faith +5? In my equipment already... plus he'll probably have a few of the lesser ones in case its not needed... Haste would help though - maybe I'll pick up some boots... oh wait - that was already on my list to buy... You might be ECL6 by that point, but if Aquin is ECL7 - he gets his 2nd level of fighter - better BAB, another feat, and a few more HPs to soak up an additional attack from that club.
Mind Rogue 10-26-05, 06:25 PM	So, Anya was going to see if Nico was up for another beauty pageant next week, but it appears she's decided to retire (she knows that aasimar just aren't nearly as pretty as halflings). So now the question is which ugly is about to recieve a shot at seeing what power beauty holds? Meanwhile, Alexi is itching to ignite some one else on fire; he also can't wait to gain another two levels so he can singe gladiators with a whip of ectoplasmic flame. So anyone who would like to become a victim to help him on his way to pure pyromania, feel free to step forward.
MysticMonk2005 10-27-05, 02:06 AM	I'm going to have 4 characters up this week The Dire Flame (HG Psy/Mnk/Brb EL4) is going to rock anyone without potions of fly in the arena. Griff Mythal (Gnome Wiz 5 EL5) is going to magic up and take out some poor fighter dolt. The Gatekeeper (HD Barb 1 EL5) is going to MQ and level up this week Anixx the Warbringer (HE Cle 6 EL6) is crafting magic stuff Oye.... hey OWA, we have another poor lost soul who believes that the 'overpowered' wizard can beat the 'underpowered' fighter like swatting a fly. Sir, I would like to point you to the Arenas two highest level pure fighters, Pard and Kage. Both have killed a number of casters.
Gonbow 10-27-05, 02:38 AM	So, Anya was going to see if Nico was up for another beauty pageant next week, but it appears she's decided to retire (she knows that aasimar just aren't nearly as pretty as halflings). So now the question is which ugly is about to recieve a shot at seeing what power beauty holds? Meanwhile, Alexi is itching to ignite some one else on fire; he also can't wait to gain another two levels so he can singe gladiators with a whip of ectoplasmic flame. So anyone who would like to become a victim to help him on his way to pure pyromania, feel free to step forward. Mmhmmm. Lets see where you are in a few weeks, maybe you'll face a /real/ psionicist, like Tatyana! In the mean-time, Gladius gets Lortavos and then Santos! The dynamic match-losing twins ;)
Snommelp 10-27-05, 03:00 AM	I don't know what made me think of it, but I just made a new character. His name is Justin Case. I made him just in case the powers that be should decide to change the ruling that says mounts are allies, not equipment. Trust me, you don't want to fight against Justin. Which brings me to a question: theoretically, how many humans could you squeeze into one of those starting blocks?
MysticMonk2005 10-27-05, 03:26 AM	well.. the blocks are 9x9 squares with two rocks so if you have everyone on the ground, then u can have 79 people.
The Undershadow 10-27-05, 03:51 AM	I don't know what made me think of it, but I just made a new character. His name is Justin Case. I made him just in case the powers that be should decide to change the ruling that says mounts are allies, not equipment. Trust me, you don't want to fight against Justin. Which brings me to a question: theoretically, how many humans could you squeeze into one of those starting blocks? How about if you start with reduced gnomes.
Dracazar 10-27-05, 06:39 AM	Hi, I have a question about credits, i have read the sections in rules post but i wish a confirm. Is there any way to gain credits without "lording" something? Is so, doing what? May I do a quest or miniquest to gain a custom wondrous item instead of spending 15 credits? Thank you in advance and sorry if some questions seems lame.
Vathelokai 10-27-05, 07:30 AM	Hi, I have a question about credits, i have read the sections in rules post but i wish a confirm. Is there any way to gain credits without "lording" something? Is so, doing what? May I do a quest or miniquest to gain a custom wondrous item instead of spending 15 credits? Thank you in advance and sorry if some questions seems lame. You can also gain credits by auditing character sheets (i.e. finding mistakes) and posting them in the prison. Writing stories about the characters (even if you have nothing to do with them) can get you credits. Making maps can as well. There are also some one time credits; you get one on your birthday, 2 if you submit a picture of yourself to the scribelords...every now and then there is an announcement in the tavern from Cat saying that you can get some credits for doing him a favor.
SauroGrenom 10-27-05, 08:30 AM	How do crawling tattoo's work with powers that require concentration as part of the durration. matter agitation is an example. If you were to make a tattoo of this power, activate it in a battle and it was able to hit, then what effect would it have?
Sunwolf 10-27-05, 09:30 AM	For ammunition, is the cost of special materials added to each item individually or to each unit bought? 20 Silver Arrows 1gp + 2gp = 3gp or 20 Silver Arrows 1gp + 2gp*20 = 41gp I believe that the cost should be per unit sold which is 20 in the case of arrows.
Sunwolf 10-27-05, 09:37 AM	When fixing the character sheet - you are supposed to PM the NARC when the changes are done. Posting to the prison thread is fine - but a PM is in general better. Also, you might want to get Sunwolf to close the violation on the gatekeeper - since it seems that it was incorrect. I'll verify the changes on Griff and update the post too. @Telin or Iced Please point out where the violation on gatekeeper was judged incorrect and I will close/retract the violation.
TelinArtho 10-27-05, 10:17 AM	It was on the same page and was an opinion put out by King Uther - and I happen to agree with him. I don't think any reference was included however.
Sunwolf 10-27-05, 10:32 AM	It was on the same page and was an opinion put out by King Uther - and I happen to agree with him. I don't think any reference was included however. Unfortunately, I also saw opposing opinions on the same page with references. @Iced Please get a ruling one way or another from the elders. If it falls through perhaps you can get Gatekeeper converted to a ogre-halfdragon for +1 more LA and some credits. Just an idea. Not sure if it fits your build plans that way.
Snommelp 10-27-05, 11:17 AM	well.. the blocks are 9x9 squares with two rocks so if you have everyone on the ground, then u can have 79 people. Curses... there go my 1000 hirelings... hey, Undershadow had a good idea; how many reduced gnomes/halflings could you fit into a starting block?
Mind Rogue 10-27-05, 12:01 PM	Well, he said that you could fit 79 humans into the starting block. Tiny creatures have face 2 1/2 ft, so you could fit four times as many reduced gnome/halflings or grigs, housecats, etc. This amounts to being 276 of any combination of kitties, sprites, or shrunken demi-humans.
Sindorin 10-27-05, 12:23 PM	I have my suspicions as to what you're trying to do... but... Why on earth would one want that many hirelings in an arena fight?!
NiQil 10-27-05, 12:39 PM	Curses... there go my 1000 hirelings... hey, Undershadow had a good idea; how many reduced gnomes/halflings could you fit into a starting block? Why not really scare everyone, and make all of your allies fuzzy bunnies? Wouldn't even need to purchase them....just give them a few weeks to procreate LOL.
SauroGrenom 10-27-05, 12:56 PM	mistaken prepost, look down a couple posts.
One_Winged_Angel 10-27-05, 01:05 PM	Simple. There isn't one. Oye.... hey OWA, we have another poor lost soul who believes that the 'overpowered' wizard can beat the 'underpowered' fighter like swatting a fly. Sir, I would like to point you to the Arenas two highest level pure fighters, Pard and Kage. Both have killed a number of casters. You do realize that most of our losses also stemmed from casters, right?
SauroGrenom 10-27-05, 01:10 PM	I was looking at this from the SRD: PERSISTENT SPELL [METAMAGIC] Prerequisite: Extend Spell. Benefit: A persistent spell has a duration of 24 hours. The persistent spell must have a personal range or a fixed range. Spells of instantaneous duration cannot be affected by this feat, nor can spells whose effects are discharged. You need not concentrate on spells such as detect magic or detect thoughts to be aware of the mere presence of absence of the things detected, but you must still concentrate to gain additional information as normal. Concentration on such a spell is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A persistent spell uses up a spell slot six levels higher than the spell’s actual level. What would be the Psionic Version of this metamagic feat? In the epic feats section there is a passage about translating metamagic feats over to metapsionic feats. If I apply that then a power costs an extra 12pp if persistent. But this would be different from the way that all the other metapsionic feats work, because the other metapsionic feats expend psionic focus. There appears to be some inconsistency in the way the metapsionic feats compare to metamagic feats. If we apply the suggested protocol from the epic SRD, then Maximize Spell become an additional 6pp to manifest the power. Instead the pp cost increases 4pp and psionic focus is expended. So what is the proper way to translate this feat over to a metapsionic feat?
Snommelp 10-27-05, 01:19 PM	I have my suspicions as to what you're trying to do... but... Why on earth would one want that many hirelings in an arena fight?! They're the equipment for my character Justin Case, made just in case someone decides to argue about mounts being allies when they're listed as equipment. I doubt it will come up this late after the decision, but you never know. If someone tries that argument, I tell them about Justin, with his thousand trained hirelings which are also by that logic equipment. That should stop the argument.
Tellish_of_Ket 10-27-05, 01:27 PM	Hagrid and Kracknol are done. No, it's not Hagrid vs Kracknol. LOL Just two monster fights, that betweem them both only lasted 4 rounds'ish. -ToK
Macbrea 10-27-05, 02:19 PM	Anyone happen to know what magic item slots a wolf/large cat would be allowed to wear? I am guessing by the rules it would be something like: One amulet, brooch, medallion, necklace, periapt, or scarab around the neck One belt around the waist (over a robe or suit of armor) One cloak, cape, or mantle around the shoulders (over a robe or suit of armor) Two pair of bracers or bracelets on the arms or wrists One set of barding
The Undershadow 10-27-05, 02:46 PM	Why not really scare everyone, and make all of your allies fuzzy bunnies? Wouldn't even need to purchase them....just give them a few weeks to procreate LOL. By that time, you would have to reduce those just to get them all there. That's over 1200 bunnies. Then in the fight, cancel the reduce, and begin casting enlarge from your wand.:D Anyway, what is the DC save for Drow's Poison?
NiQil 10-27-05, 02:53 PM	By that time, you would have to reduce those just to get them all there. That's over 1200 bunnies. Then in the fight, cancel the reduce, and begin casting enlarge from your wand.:D Anyway, what is the DC save for Drow's Poison? Fort save DC 13
TelinArtho 10-27-05, 03:29 PM	Its posted in Tanglewood's character sheet - DC13.
MysticMonk2005 10-27-05, 03:33 PM	Simple. There isn't one. You do realize that most of our losses also stemmed from casters, right? Evram wasn't a mage, he was a psion!(cursed EgoWhip!) And all losses before my first win dont count! Actualy most of my losses come from either you, Arstimis, or Kaigan. Looking at it, actuly like 2 casters beat him back during his start up. also, a question, how would one go about sending their pic to scribelords?
TelinArtho 10-27-05, 03:50 PM	Put the image in a public domain (like photobucket) and send the link in a PM to Scribelords I think. That or maybe email scribelords.
Iced 10-27-05, 04:02 PM	Unfortunately, I also saw opposing opinions on the same page with references. @Iced Please get a ruling one way or another from the elders. If it falls through perhaps you can get Gatekeeper converted to a ogre-halfdragon for +1 more LA and some credits. Just an idea. Not sure if it fits your build plans that way. I'll look into it, but I was really trying to save up so I can buy off some levels for The Dire Flame. EDIT - I may not have to change his type at all. Maybe there should be an elder poll on the subject?
Iced 10-27-05, 04:11 PM	Oye.... hey OWA, we have another poor lost soul who believes that the 'overpowered' wizard can beat the 'underpowered' fighter like swatting a fly. Sir, I would like to point you to the Arenas two highest level pure fighters, Pard and Kage. Both have killed a number of casters. And yet it's the casters that really handed their a***s to them through their throats when they did lose...;) I'll have a fun time mopping up your fighter with my overpowered caster any day. Trust me, i'm going to spend a while on the tactics, there will be no freebees for the underdog. ~Iced P.S. Why did the fighter have to pick up a potion of fly...
Enterik 10-27-05, 04:59 PM	@Anyone: Can an ECL3 PC have two elemental allies with a total of 4HD between them (2x2HD)? The rewards calculator says that even if they're CR-1 there are still too many allies.
TelinArtho 10-27-05, 05:14 PM	You can have as many allies on your sheet as you can purchase/miniquest for/quest for. However, you can only bring into an arena/quest/campaign the ones that fit under the criteria of the arena. For instance, Delaria (ECL3) has a fire elemental and an air elemental (both CR1). However, at this time, she can only bring one into the arena at a time - she gets to choose which one, but only one. As a counterpoint, Vakkor (ECL4) has 2 CR1/2 allies and a CR2 ally. He can bring up to 2CR into an arena fight, but no single ally can have a CR>1 - so he can bring both medium centipedes, but for now the HUGE centipede is off limits.
Iced 10-27-05, 05:41 PM	You know - this is what the last tavern was missing: Some good ole smack talk... Yeah it was. :D
One_Winged_Angel 10-27-05, 05:43 PM	And yet it's the casters that really handed their a***s to them through their throats when they did lose...;) I'll have a fun time mopping up your fighter with my overpowered caster any day. Trust me, i'm going to spend a while on the tactics, there will be no freebees for the underdog. ~Iced P.S. Why did the fighter have to pick up a potion of fly... Actually, it's not so much the casters that worked me. The only time I really got hammered was by Anna the ghost. And actually, Mystic has a better wizard kill build than I do. He often one rounds casters when he wins the initiative. Kage just charges them and watches the fun. And I resent the idea of needing a potion of fly! (We bought flying mounts ;)) BTW, Kage got to Level 12 as a fighter with no bumps. The worst losing streak he had was 2 in a row. @Mystic: It's not our fault you were dumb enough to accept our challanges. And Evram was still a caster at the base of him.
TelinArtho 10-27-05, 05:51 PM	I would say with your record they have a 50/50 shot at it. Except for Grik maybe. I'll give him 10%. -ToK What do you say NOW Crazy-Man? Two quick wins and I'm already at 18 wins and 15 losses! With Grik's auto-loss (let's be serious here - unless he gets a lucky crit (or two), he's toast...), and you already admitting defeat with Pale Rider (and if you do - go ahead and just PM Luni and let her know that you give up... - that get's me to 20 wins and 15 losses... and a startling 4:3 ratio! What? You don't care? Well, fine, back in my hole I guess...
Snommelp 10-27-05, 05:54 PM	Your mentioning Anna reminded me of a question I had about the 10 round rule. It says that "if you leave the Prime Material Plane (through a spell like Ethereal Jaunt)" you're subjected to the cumulative 10-round disqualification clock. But suppose a fighter type uses some method of becoming ethereal in order to attack Anna the ghost. Would he still be subjected to the timer?
One_Winged_Angel 10-27-05, 06:00 PM	Your mentioning Anna reminded me of a question I had about the 10 round rule. It says that "if you leave the Prime Material Plane (through a spell like Ethereal Jaunt)" you're subjected to the cumulative 10-round disqualification clock. But suppose a fighter type uses some method of becoming ethereal in order to attack Anna the ghost. Would he still be subjected to the timer? Erm...there is an issue there in that Anna was actually incorporial, not etherial. Otherwise, I think it's just whoever hits the 10 round limit first. It doesn't matter if you are both fighting on another plane.
Snommelp 10-27-05, 06:12 PM	Erm...there is an issue there in that Anna was actually incorporial, not etherial. Otherwise, I think it's just whoever hits the 10 round limit first. It doesn't matter if you are both fighting on another plane.I'm at work right now, so I can't check it, but I thought that you could attack incorporeal craetures if you were ehtereal, or something to that effect. Am I mistaken?
Prisonlords 10-27-05, 06:18 PM	You would be correct to throw him in prison. It's for each unit, not the whole stack. -ToK First, he cannot throw me in Prison, but he can NARC me out. Second, NARC me or don't, but I have plenty of time to avoid getting the Violation for it. Third, I am not sure that I agree with you on this one. No where does the book specify that quantity of arrows or bolts that you get for the +2gp. Aside from Sleep, Screaming and Bane, ALL other references to the price of ammunition is either per quiver or per bundle of 50. Masterwork? Per bundle of 50. Enchanted? Per bundle of 50. Unmodified? Per quiver.... LLPL :twocents:
NiQil 10-27-05, 06:23 PM	First, he cannot throw me in Prison, but he can NARC me out. Second, NARC me or don't, but I have plenty of time to avoid getting the Violation for it. Third, I am not sure that I agree with you on this one. No where does the book specify that quantity of arrows or bolts that you get for the +2gp. Aside from Sleep, Screaming and Bane, ALL other references to the price of ammunition is either per quiver or per bundle of 50. Masterwork? Per bundle of 50. Enchanted? Per bundle of 50. Unmodified? Per quiver.... LLPL :twocents: In point of order.... MASTERWORK WEAPONS A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon. Wielding it provides a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls. You can’t add the masterwork quality to a weapon after it is created; it must be crafted as a masterwork weapon (see the Craft skill). The masterwork quality adds 300 gp to the cost of a normal weapon (or 6 gp to the cost of a single unit of ammunition). Adding the masterwork quality to a double weapon costs twice the normal increase (+600 gp). Masterwork ammunition is damaged (effectively destroyed) when used. The enhancement bonus of masterwork ammunition does not stack with any enhancement bonus of the projectile weapon firing it. All magic weapons are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality. The enhancement bonus granted by the masterwork quality doesn’t stack with the enhancement bonus provided by the weapon’s magic. Even though some types of armor and shields can be used as weapons, you can’t create a masterwork version of such an item that confers an enhancement bonus on attack rolls. Instead, masterwork armor and shields have lessened armor check penalties. Since all arrows of special materials are automatically masterwork, it applies per arrow. Same with any magical enhancements, since they are also, by definition, masterwork. And I have no idea where you are getting the per bundle of 50....to my knowledge arrows are always sold in quivers of 20. But anytime you buy anything other than mundane arrows, you are paying a per-item cost.
Tellish_of_Ket 10-27-05, 06:41 PM	Third, I am not sure that I agree with you on this one. No where does the book specify that quantity of arrows or bolts that you get for the +2gp. Aside from Sleep, Screaming and Bane, ALL other references to the price of ammunition is either per quiver or per bundle of 50. Masterwork? Per bundle of 50. Enchanted? Per bundle of 50. Unmodified? Per quiver.... LLPL :twocents: You are wrong here. MW is not per bundle of 50, it's per unit. And the price in the DMG for the whole bundle of 50 reflects that as well. So, off to jail you go good warden. The cons are taking over the joint. -ToK
Prisonlords 10-27-05, 07:18 PM	You are wrong here. MW is not per bundle of 50, it's per unit. And the price in the DMG for the whole bundle of 50 reflects that as well. So, off to jail you go good warden. The cons are taking over the joint. -ToK Nope. Adding the masterwork cost to a weapon is 300gp. Adding the 300 to a bundle of arrows comes out to the 6gp per arrow. Go have fun enchanting your 1 Frost Arrow. The book has no information on it. Know why??? Because they get enchanted in bundles of 50! For 2,000gp! That's where I get the bundles of 50 information. :banghead: I'd blame the confusion of the language I am speaking and the ability for foreigners to understand me (Since English may not be the native language of Canada), but Niqil is from Colorado! :P LL
One_Winged_Angel 10-27-05, 07:23 PM	Nope. Adding the masterwork cost to a weapon is 300gp. Adding the 300 to a bundle of arrows comes out to the 6gp per arrow. Go have fun enchanting your 1 Frost Arrow. The book has no information on it. Know why??? Because they get enchanted in bundles of 50! For 2,000gp! That's where I get the bundles of 50 information. :banghead: I'd blame the confusion of the language I am speaking and the ability for foreigners to understand me (Since English may not be the native language of Canada), but Niqil is from Colorado! :P LL That reminds me of this one time I was walking with my friend who was Canadian and someone walked up to him and asked him if he spoke Canadian. ...Sometimes I wonder at the intellegence of humanity. :weep:
Tellish_of_Ket 10-27-05, 07:27 PM	Nope. Adding the masterwork cost to a weapon is 300gp. Adding the 300 to a bundle of arrows comes out to the 6gp per arrow. Go have fun enchanting your 1 Frost Arrow. The book has no information on it. Know why??? Because they get enchanted in bundles of 50! For 2,000gp! That's where I get the bundles of 50 information. :banghead: I'd blame the confusion of the language I am speaking and the ability for foreigners to understand me (Since English may not be the native language of Canada), but Niqil is from Colorado! :P LL Ok, jailbird. An arrow is NOT A WEAPON. It's ammunition. And thus follows the rules for MW'ing and Enchanting as an AMMUNITION. I can size seven that if you need to convict. Roll call is at 10:30 pm sharp, and it's lights out. -ToK
Poe The Great 10-27-05, 09:51 PM	I'm currently imprisoned for not linking my fights, but I currently have no clue how to do so. How is this amazing feat accomplished?
Mind Rogue 10-27-05, 09:54 PM	That reminds me of this one time I was walking with my friend who was Canadian and someone walked up to him and asked him if he spoke Canadian. ...Sometimes I wonder at the intellegence of humanity. :weep: Humans have a -4 penalty to Int. This actually makes us stupider than orcs.
Snommelp 10-27-05, 09:55 PM	I'm currently imprisoned for not linking my fights, but I currently have no clue how to do so. How is this amazing feat accomplished? Go to the fight post. Go to the bottom. Place your cursor over quote, but do not click. The coding of the link should end with a seven digit number. Use [post=number]tags to link the fights. Alternately, if your pitlords linked the fights in the FotW threads (which they probably did), copy that link and paste it on your sheet.
TelinArtho 10-27-05, 09:56 PM	First of all - get used to the <url=http -etc> tag </url> (replace < and > with [ and ]) At the top of each post, you should notice the number of the post. This you can right click on to copy the link. Then past it on the front end of the url tags.
Poe The Great 10-27-05, 10:06 PM	Also, in the "Character's of Gladius" thread, I'm listed as having won 2 and lost 1, but I have won 3 and lost 0. I would like this fixed if at all possible, and have my power rating adjusted accordingly. Thanks in advanced.
MysticMonk2005 10-27-05, 11:29 PM	And yet it's the casters that really handed their a***s to them through their throats when they did lose...;) I'll have a fun time mopping up your fighter with my overpowered caster any day. Trust me, i'm going to spend a while on the tactics, there will be no freebees for the underdog. ~Iced P.S. Why did the fighter have to pick up a potion of fly... I'd like to point out to you that the only two people to PWN Pard once he got going were Cat and Snark. Snark ran like 4 fights for Pard so he knew exactly what to do and uh Evram hurts. Cat.. I dont think I need an excuse for loosing to him.
Sindorin 10-28-05, 02:47 AM	Quick clarification question regarding guild membership... Do characters that have long been in a guild such as the EHTC need to reapply themselves for membership? I ask this because I may have Va'ria go where she belongs, The Arcane Order, as I'm not sure if she fulfills reqs for EHTC.
One_Winged_Angel 10-28-05, 03:20 AM	@Scribelords: When will the new chance to RP be up? Kage and Pard have not done their crazy antics in a good loooooooong time now. I'm itchin' to get it goin'! Especially since both parties are currently in a state of suspended animation.
MysticMonk2005 10-28-05, 06:33 AM	<.< at this rate Pard is guna get fat from sitting on his butt all day long at the archery range.
Pitlords 10-28-05, 06:59 AM	@all: I've decided to add a new rule to the CoCo. From now on, a player character may have a maximum of [M], [Q], and [C] (combined value) of up to his ECL. Never more. So if a ECL 7 character has [C:1][Q:2][M:4] he cannot go on a campaign, quest, miniquest, or monsterfight unless he gains a level. The reason behind this is that without that rule, characters could theoretically level to 20 with monster fights and miniquests only, as some characters already have the tendency to do *coughHagridcoughBrilfcough* They would also open higher leagues pretty quickly before these leagues are prepared to be opened. There must be a balance between Monster fights, Miniquests, and Arena Fights. This has no effect on those who want to go on Quests and Campaigns only. You gain one level per quest so if you wish you could never see the arena, and Campaigns last through several levels even. I decided to include them still so that players have to decide how to use their "allotment" of M, Q, and C. In my opinion a very elegant solution. I just don't know where to put that in the rules LOL Any idea? Cat
Macbrea 10-28-05, 08:36 AM	@all: I have a silly question. Deflect arrows states: "Attempting to deflect a ranged weapon doesn’t count as an action. Unusually massive ranged weapons and ranged attacks generated by spell effects can’t be deflected." What is considered massive ranged weapons for Colisseum? I am currious if a ballista counts as such?
Sunwolf 10-28-05, 08:52 AM	@all: I've decided to add a new rule to the CoCo. From now on, a player character may have a maximum of [M], [Q], and [C] (combined value) of up to his ECL. Never more. So if a ECL 7 character has [C:1][Q:2][M:4] he cannot go on a campaign, quest, miniquest, or monsterfight unless he gains a level. The reason behind this is that without that rule, characters could theoretically level to 20 with monster fights and miniquests only, as some characters already have the tendency to do *coughHagridcoughBrilfcough* They would also open higher leagues pretty quickly before these leagues are prepared to be opened. There must be a balance between Monster fights, Miniquests, and Arena Fights. This has no effect on those who want to go on Quests and Campaigns only. You gain one level per quest so if you wish you could never see the arena, and Campaigns last through several levels even. I decided to include them still so that players have to decide how to use their "allotment" of M, Q, and C. In my opinion a very elegant solution. I just don't know where to put that in the rules LOL Any idea? Cat My only comment is that monster fights and miniquests are noted the same. As I understand it, miniquests are requested and monster fights are assigned -- the difference is being able to choose your opponent on a miniquest. Making a miniquest somewhat easier to be prepared for. The reason Hagrid and Brilf have so many monster fights is that there haven't been other opponents available in their respective leagues. Brilf is certainly available to fight multiple lower level gladiators if he is not allowed to have monster fights or has noone else available in his league. As to where to put this rule. It should be noted somewhere in the about arena fights and also in the part about setting pairings because now it will be an extra step on choosing pairings.
Macbrea 10-28-05, 09:19 AM	Reason I asked my question had to do with the fact foamy has deflect arrow. He is a familar and I don't believe actually should have more then base feats. According to the rules. Anyways, Va'ria's needs to upgrade her familiars hps as she is cheating the little guy of precious life!
Caterane 10-28-05, 10:03 AM	Reason I asked my question had to do with the fact foamy has deflect arrow. He is a familar and I don't believe actually should have more then base feats. According to the rules. Anyways, Va'ria's needs to upgrade her familiars hps as she is cheating the little guy of precious life! Familiars do not gain feats as their master advances nor can they be customized. Familiars are clearly defined.
Sindorin 10-28-05, 10:14 AM	Reason I asked my question had to do with the fact foamy has deflect arrow. He is a familar and I don't believe actually should have more then base feats. According to the rules. Anyways, Va'ria's needs to upgrade her familiars hps as she is cheating the little guy of precious life! Heh, yeah I had edited Foamy's feats back to where they should have been long ago. I am surprised to find that said edit evidently didn't save. I fixed that problem, and I suppose you're right about advancing the little bugger.
Macbrea 10-28-05, 10:15 AM	Very well then.. the squirrel is getting sent to prison! His master can visit him on thursdays for one hour.
NiQil 10-28-05, 10:32 AM	My only comment is that monster fights and miniquests are noted the same. As I understand it, miniquests are requested and monster fights are assigned -- the difference is being able to choose your opponent on a miniquest. Making a miniquest somewhat easier to be prepared for. The reason Hagrid and Brilf have so many monster fights is that there haven't been other opponents available in their respective leagues. Brilf is certainly available to fight multiple lower level gladiators if he is not allowed to have monster fights or has noone else available in his league. As to where to put this rule. It should be noted somewhere in the about arena fights and also in the part about setting pairings because now it will be an extra step on choosing pairings. The other comment I would add about this is that, if you are going to limit monster fights the same way as miniquests, quests and campaigns, then monster fights should no longer be random assignments...they should be something you must request as well. Otherwise, it is not fair to someone who may be waiting to do a quest or miniquest once they have enough gold to do something, only to get assigned a random monster fight and have their plans shot all to hell because now they have reached their limit.
Pittbull 10-28-05, 10:51 AM	*coughHagridcoughBrilfcough* *coughIndricough* :D
Snommelp 10-28-05, 11:10 AM	Seems to be a chill going around... or perhaps a simple sore throat... I agree with NiQil. If Monster fights are going to be included in this ruling, they shouldn't be random. I could reiterate everything he said, since it's a good argument, but he said it so much better than I could.
Enterik 10-28-05, 11:24 AM	Do columns count as stone wall for listen check purposes?
Tellish_of_Ket 10-28-05, 11:28 AM	Do columns count as stone wall for listen check purposes? No. -ToK
Enterik 10-28-05, 11:29 AM	No. -ToK How much do they modify the DC?
Tellish_of_Ket 10-28-05, 11:30 AM	How much do they modify the DC? They Don't. -ToK
TelinArtho 10-28-05, 11:51 AM	I'm going to have to echo the sentiments of NiQil and Snommelp on the issue with setting a maximum number of quests/miniquests/campaigns/monsterfights. Two things: 1. Sir Valkin was on a campaign - but the campaign was cancelled and there were no combats in that campaign (and nothing that earned him xp otherwise). Why should this count against him? I've already paid the credits for it. Granted, he's not likely to hit the maximum - but should he have a maximum cut down because of this occurance? [In reality, I think that campaigns should not be included in this respect- but I am fine with including it when the characters have actually done something on campaign]. 2. Characters like Delaria and Vakkor who make use of non-class allies will have a large number of miniquests because they need new allies as they level up - if monster fights cuts this number down - in order to prevent this, they are going to frontload the miniquests to be sure they don't get penalized (by not being able to get the creature they want because they have already miniquested for it. Maybe the problem really is the number of monster fights? Because, since MQ have to be ECL-2 - no one is going to be using them to advance (solely) - not only would they be advancing much more slowly (which is counter to your reasoning anyway), but they would also not get any real benefit from it. By the same token, since you have to pay credits for quests and you are almost assured to advance because of the quest - I see no reason why they should be included either. So back to the monster fights - if people are advancing too quickly with them, before their respective leagues are filling up - put a max on the number of monster fights ONLY. Say 1/2 your ECL or even 1/3 (to keep with other trends). To reiterate - a person pays for the priveledge of using quests and campaigns (via credits) - so those should not be limited (except through the limitation on how many credits you can possibly earn). For miniquests - they shouldn't be included because some builds require frequent miniquests (and without them - they would be far less effective).
Cerebus13 10-28-05, 12:05 PM	Miniquests have an EL that is at a max your ECL-2, so they are always less efficient to level with than straight arena fight, monster fight, or 3 week quests. The problem of quick-leveling "freebie" rewards comes from monster fights where the randomly generated monsters get beaten without a chance (flying player vs. ground based opponents), or the 33% bonus you receive from 3-week quests. Placing a hard cap on the amount of these particular options would be hard on certain builds that require quests to pick up allies and other things. Instead some sort of system that puts a delay in between each non-Player battle event may be better. A quick idea would be to place a delay of X (in weeks) between each non-Player battle, where X is dependant on what the action is and possibly ECL.
TelinArtho 10-28-05, 12:08 PM	But what about characters whose only intention is to quest? If the player wants to quest a character from start to finish - shouldn't that be allowed?
Cerebus13 10-28-05, 12:14 PM	But what about characters whose only intention is to quest? If the player wants to quest a character from start to finish - shouldn't that be allowed?Join a Campaign then, since that is essentially just one long quest. As others have said Campaigns should probably be exempt from this whole concept. Another option for a person who wants to solely do quests...simply don't do anything for weeks where you have to "delay" after a quest. Normal gladiators could take up Arena fights, and the quest-centric folks would just have to sit out and cooldown for a while. This would perhaps address the issue of people jumping ahead in levels too quickly, hmm....
SoulLord 10-28-05, 12:15 PM	@all: I've decided to add a new rule to the CoCo. From now on, a player character may have a maximum of [M], [Q], and [C] (combined value) of up to his ECL. Never more. So if a ECL 7 character has [C:1][Q:2][M:4] he cannot go on a campaign, quest, miniquest, or monsterfight unless he gains a level. The reason behind this is that without that rule, characters could theoretically level to 20 with monster fights and miniquests only, as some characters already have the tendency to do *coughHagridcoughBrilfcough* They would also open higher leagues pretty quickly before these leagues are prepared to be opened. There must be a balance between Monster fights, Miniquests, and Arena Fights. This has no effect on those who want to go on Quests and Campaigns only. You gain one level per quest so if you wish you could never see the arena, and Campaigns last through several levels even. I decided to include them still so that players have to decide how to use their "allotment" of M, Q, and C. In my opinion a very elegant solution. I just don't know where to put that in the rules LOL Any idea? Cat emphasis mine
NiQil 10-28-05, 12:19 PM	And that's the reason I only spoke about monster fights. Monster fights are the one cog in Cat's theory that could really screw things up. Either let monster fights stand just like arena fights, or don't randomly assign them anymore.
TelinArtho 10-28-05, 12:20 PM	Join a Campaign then, since that is essentially just one long quest. As others have said Campaigns should probably be exempt from this whole concept. Another option for a person who wants to solely do quests...simply don't do anything for weeks where you have to "delay" after a quest. Normal gladiators could take up Arena fights, and the quest-centric folks would just have to sit out and cooldown for a while. This would perhaps address the issue of people jumping ahead in levels too quickly, hmm.... Well, there's two problems there: 1. Sir Valkin joined a campaign - but the campaign was dissolved. 2. All of the current campaigns are full (with one notable exception and that one will be filled soon). SoulLord's point though is correct- its just that characters who want to miniquest for new allies in between quests (or for just character development purposes even) now have to find a different avenue (roll the ally into the quest goal probably - even if it doesn't fit in correctly).
Cerebus13 10-28-05, 12:20 PM	emphasis mineUh, that can lead exactly to the problem that Cat was talking about before. If a person did quests in such a way that they leveled after every one of them, they could level to the highest league without players in it and then begin doing arena fights. I didn't realize this when first looking at Cat's proposal, but it seems to me that could be a problem that more ingenious players may exploit.
Tellish_of_Ket 10-28-05, 12:22 PM	2. All of the current campaigns are full (with one notable exception and that one will be filled soon). Actually, untrue. My wife and i have discussed my "over-involvement" and i have to cut back my time and characters. Which i wholeheartedly agree. So, there will be an openeing in Huan's campaign, "Grand Heists" coming up, as i will be leaving as soon as a replacement is found. -ToK
TelinArtho 10-28-05, 12:29 PM	Obviously I couldn't have known about that - so that's two notable exceptions, one of which will be filled soon and the other is to be determined... Hmmm - so Pure Evil's leaving eh? Too bad Vakkor's joining Missions Abroad - he'd be a suitable replacement priest (and just a bit crazy himself...). Kraegin's got other plans and is ECL6 already... my other priests just aren't evil, plus they are too low level.
Tellish_of_Ket 10-28-05, 12:32 PM	Obviously I couldn't have known about that - so that's two notable exceptions, one of which will be filled soon and the other is to be determined... Hmmm - so Pure Evil's leaving eh? Too bad Vakkor's joining Missions Abroad - he'd be a suitable replacement priest (and just a bit crazy himself...). Kraegin's got other plans and is ECL6 already... my other priests just aren't evil, plus they are too low level. I get to keep two active characters, and finish my campaign. I don't think they need a cleric specifically, but another spellcaster couldn't hurt, they have a very strong group. -ToK
TelinArtho 10-28-05, 12:34 PM	Hmmm. Maybe I'll PM Huan about getting in. I think I'll have to create a new character though - because I have no one that I have free for the ECL5 range.
Tellish_of_Ket 10-28-05, 12:35 PM	Hmmm. Maybe I'll PM Huan about getting in. I think I'll have to create a new character though - because I have no one that I have free for the ECL5 range. I just thought of something weird. If you wanna play (and Keep) Pure Evil, you can just c/p him from my post and make him urs instead of making a new guy. -ToK
TelinArtho 10-28-05, 12:37 PM	That's certainly an idea and if it is preferable to Huan and to you I could do that. I guess I'll wait to see what Huan says (I've already PMed him the questions).
Macbrea 10-28-05, 04:13 PM	There we go. Decided to have a second gladiator. Gorak should be fun. Oh, if you don't mind I would be willing to run at least one fight next week. I have a pretty good knowledge of the rules.
TelinArtho 10-28-05, 04:18 PM	@MacBrea - PM pitlords with the request for running one fight/week. You should PM him about the 2nd character too. Off to go check on him - expect to see violations posted in the prison thread.
Snommelp 10-28-05, 04:26 PM	That seems like a pessimistic attitude, there, Telin... I hope you had that pessimism when you wrote Aquin's tactics; that could be to my advantage. Please tell me you were pessimistic when you wrote Aquin's tactics! ...not that it matters. Grik's going to be eating fish sticks for a long time after this fight.
TelinArtho 10-28-05, 04:26 PM	Nothing too serious - but the violations have been posted. PM me when you've got them resolved.
TelinArtho 10-28-05, 04:27 PM	That seems like a pessimistic attitude, there, Telin... I hope you had that pessimism when you wrote Aquin's tactics; that could be to my advantage. Please tell me you were pessimistic when you wrote Aquin's tactics! ...not that it matters. Grik's going to be eating fish sticks for a long time after this fight. Fish sticks? What like Aquin's swords? Aquin's arrogant - what can I say...
NiQil 10-28-05, 04:27 PM	That seems like a pessimistic attitude, there, Telin... I hope you had that pessimism when you wrote Aquin's tactics; that could be to my advantage. Please tell me you were pessimistic when you wrote Aquin's tactics! ...not that it matters. Grik's going to be eating fish sticks for a long time after this fight. "What dis? Dis no taste lik fish-man! Oh, dat be Luk Bo. Sorry Luk Bo."
SauroGrenom 10-28-05, 04:41 PM	Quick clarification question regarding guild membership... Do characters that have long been in a guild such as the EHTC need to reapply themselves for membership? I ask this because I may have Va'ria go where she belongs, The Arcane Order, as I'm not sure if she fulfills reqs for EHTC. You need to reapply for membership in any guild. I do not believe that any membership carries over to the new incarnation of the guilds.
Sindorin 10-28-05, 04:47 PM	You need to reapply for membership in any guild. I do not believe that any membership carries over to the new incarnation of the guilds. That's kind of what I thought. Thanks.
Macbrea 10-28-05, 04:47 PM	Heh, Not sure I should be penalized for the guy with a 6 wisdom paying too much for shiny arrows! "They was priceless says the mechant but he would part with them for a very low price."
King Uther 10-28-05, 04:52 PM	@Sindorin I would like Va'ria to stay evil, as she already has some storyline built. Anyone who has already joined can rearrange a skill to get in as per Cat's ruling. I think you should be allowed regardless, but it's not my choice. @Caterane Telin and I did pay 5 credits, and probably more for having extra characters active in a campaign that had no encounters a only a week and a half of roleplay.
Sindorin 10-28-05, 04:57 PM	@Sindorin I would like Va'ria to stay evil, as she already has some storyline built. Anyone who has already joined can rearrange a skill to get in as per Cat's ruling. I think you should be allowed regardless, but it's not my choice. Are the prerequisites for the East Habari Trading Company posted anywhere?
King Uther 10-28-05, 05:02 PM	The requirements are 5 ranks in any 1 of the following: Bluff Appraise Sense Motive And a non-good alignment
Sindorin 10-28-05, 05:05 PM	Ah, so they aren't as difficult as I thought they would be. Thanks!
King Uther 10-28-05, 05:11 PM	I'm hoping we keep as many old members as possible, to ensure we earn our rightful place as the best guild in Gladius. It should be a fun time.
Sindorin 10-28-05, 05:20 PM	http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y67/Sindorin/variapoints.jpg Va'ria wants You to "Join the East Habari Trading Company, or you will be eviscerated, and then I will turn you into... a puppy..." http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y67/Sindorin/RileyLJ.jpg (by the way, that's my family's new puppy, Riley) "Also, we have cookies." no puppies were harmed in the making of this ad, though lots of cookies were eaten...
Iced 10-28-05, 05:48 PM	Griff runs to sign up at the new E.H.T.C. registration. For the cookies of course...;)
Snommelp 10-28-05, 05:52 PM	I was going to complain about the EHTC stealing potential members, until I looked Griff up and saw that he's a mage. Go ahead and join the trading company, sissy mage. The Warfare Alliance only takes real gladiators. :P
Vathelokai 10-28-05, 06:15 PM	Nope. Adding the masterwork cost to a weapon is 300gp. Adding the 300 to a bundle of arrows comes out to the 6gp per arrow. Go have fun enchanting your 1 Frost Arrow. The book has no information on it. Know why??? Because they get enchanted in bundles of 50! For 2,000gp! That's where I get the bundles of 50 information. :banghead: I'd blame the confusion of the language I am speaking and the ability for foreigners to understand me (Since English may not be the native language of Canada), but Niqil is from Colorado! :P LL Actually Q: When buying ammunition using the special materials from chapter 7 in the DMG, is the cost given to upgrade a single piece, or do you get twenty pieces as you do when buying nonmagic ammunition? For example... A: The ammunition prices for special materials are per piece. A single adamantine arrow costs 61 gp. Twenty ... costs 1220 gp. But, since I didn't check the sheet in question, this might be irrelevant information.
Book5 10-28-05, 09:10 PM	@all: I have a silly question. Deflect arrows states: "Attempting to deflect a ranged weapon doesn’t count as an action. Unusually massive ranged weapons and ranged attacks generated by spell effects can’t be deflected." What is considered massive ranged weapons for Colisseum? I am currious if a ballista counts as such? Ballista? -= "Massive" ... cmon.. how else can you describe a ballilsta other than "massive crossbow?" what bigger projectile weapon did you have in mind?
One_Winged_Angel 10-28-05, 09:17 PM	Here is a question for everyone. Can a creature not normally able to use a shield (let us call this character Zippy the Wondercorn :P ) use an animated shield? Ordinaraly, I would think it would be possible as the character does not have to "hold" the shield. Of course, they would take all of the penalties for non-proficiency, but is it possible? Example: Zippy wants to use a +1 Animated Large Wooden shield. He can activate the shield himself and use it for it's shield bonus. Is this allowed?
Book5 10-28-05, 10:27 PM	the question lies in the creatures communication ability "Animated: Upon command, an animated shield floats within 2 feet of the wielder..." srd So can zippy "command" a magical item? Intelligence obviously must be more than animal, and If no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it. Command word activation means that a character speaks the word and the item activates. No other special knowledge is needed. A command word can be a real word, but when this is the case, the holder of the item runs the risk of activating the item accidentally by speaking the word in normal conversation. More often, the command word is some seemingly nonsensical word, or a word or phrase from an ancient language no longer in common use. Activating a command word magic item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Sometimes the command word to activate an item is written right on the item. Occasionally, it might be hidden within a pattern or design engraved on, carved into, or built into the item, or the item might bear a clue to the command word. The Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (history) skills might be useful in helping to identify command words or deciphering clues regarding them. A successful check against DC 30 is needed to come up with the word itself. If that check is failed, succeeding on a second check (DC 25) might provide some insight into a clue. The spells identify and analyze dweomer both reveal command words. "word" do you need a language? can a wondercorn say a "word?"
LLMadCow 10-29-05, 12:05 AM	No one wants to retire a high level character just because he made some minor mistakes during his carreer. I think it is not unreasonable to assume that some DMs would allow such a change. Think credits = pizza you have to bring your DM to allow it :) I have to say that I am unlikely to ever post in that thread, since I am not convinced that it is going to be very easy to have pizza delivered to you in Germany! To make matters worse, I don't even get to enjoy the pizza with you! LLMC Will you accept a :cookie:? Afterthought ... perhaps I am understanding this incorrectly. Has Caterane found some way to trade the credits we use on the boards for pizza in real life? Does he have one of the board members, who happens to live near him, drop off a pizza every time the guy wants to post a new PC!?!? Okay! Who joined the CoCo and then moved off to Germany???
One_Winged_Angel 10-29-05, 12:37 AM	the question lies in the creatures communication ability "Animated: Upon command, an animated shield floats within 2 feet of the wielder..." srd So can zippy "command" a magical item? Intelligence obviously must be more than animal, and If no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it. Command word activation means that a character speaks the word and the item activates. No other special knowledge is needed. A command word can be a real word, but when this is the case, the holder of the item runs the risk of activating the item accidentally by speaking the word in normal conversation. More often, the command word is some seemingly nonsensical word, or a word or phrase from an ancient language no longer in common use. Activating a command word magic item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Sometimes the command word to activate an item is written right on the item. Occasionally, it might be hidden within a pattern or design engraved on, carved into, or built into the item, or the item might bear a clue to the command word. The Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (history) skills might be useful in helping to identify command words or deciphering clues regarding them. A successful check against DC 30 is needed to come up with the word itself. If that check is failed, succeeding on a second check (DC 25) might provide some insight into a clue. The spells identify and analyze dweomer both reveal command words. "word" do you need a language? can a wondercorn say a "word?" Ok, different angle. Can you activate an animated shield and 'hand' it to your mount?
sloisel 10-29-05, 05:30 AM	What's the highest dex character one can make with starting ECL3-5? It seems like the SRD likes high-strength, but didn't really consider high-dex... Gear doesn't count. My current best is something like afflicted were-hawk halfling for +8 racial to dex in hybrid form, ECL 4. Sébastien Loisel
NiQil 10-29-05, 05:46 AM	What's the highest dex character one can make with starting ECL3-5? It seems like the SRD likes high-strength, but didn't really consider high-dex... Gear doesn't count. My current best is something like afflicted were-hawk halfling for +8 racial to dex in hybrid form, ECL 4. Sébastien Loisel Try a githzerai....I'm not too familiar with afflictions and such, but githzerai can hit a +6 at ECL 3....so instead of your halfing, try that. They get a +6 Dex modifier with a +2 LA. So an ECL 5 would get them three class levels, or additional level adjustments.
sloisel 10-29-05, 08:46 AM	Try a githzerai....I'm not too familiar with afflictions and such, but githzerai can hit a +6 at ECL 3....so instead of your halfing, try that. They get a +6 Dex modifier with a +2 LA. So an ECL 5 would get them three class levels, or additional level adjustments. Thanks, that's a better combination.
Macbrea 10-29-05, 08:47 AM	What's the highest dex character one can make with starting ECL3-5? It seems like the SRD likes high-strength, but didn't really consider high-dex... Gear doesn't count. My current best is something like afflicted were-hawk halfling for +8 racial to dex in hybrid form, ECL 4. Sébastien Loisel The item your looking for is wererat githzerai. For 18 point your dex can be 18+6+6= 30 + magic items. Of course your only going to have about 10 hps for the 5 ECL fight you walk into but you will have some decent defenses.
Usurpator 10-29-05, 09:02 AM	The item your looking for is wererat githzerai. For 18 point your dex can be 18+6+6= 30 + magic items. Of course your only going to have about 10 hps for the 5 ECL fight you walk into but you will have some decent defenses. Natural Wererat Lycanthrope +3 ECL Githzerai +2 ECL 1 Class Hit Die 1 Animal Hit Die Minimum ECL: 7 (or 6 if you want an afflicted version).
Caterane 10-29-05, 09:14 AM	Monster Fights: I'm not convinced by your arguments against the new rule which is - as I've explained - necessary. NiQil said, it would prevent PCs going on Quest because their allotment is full. It takes A LOT of Ms to fill this and this is only possible by doing monster fights or miniquests. The random monster fight in case of uneven gladiator numbers hits the same PC seldomly more than once or twice. The only way to get as many Ms as Hagrid has is when the player activates his PC over and over again even if there are no (or no new) opponents - something a player sees before readying. Miniquests cannot be excluded because then, someone could miniquest his way up. Same problem. Filling up your allotment is only possible if you do it consciously so it affects only those who do prove a problem. There's not a single PC that is restricted atm. And besides, well, see it as a new restriction. Telin and I did pay 5 credits, and probably more for having extra characters active in a campaign that had no encounters a only a week and a half of roleplay. Really? I never read the campaign but Kaigan could have told me instead of gathering 3 credits every week for nothing. I think that was his last campaign. I'll give you the credits back and delete the [C] from your PC. However, you won't get any xp or items then. The Campaign just never happened (which it apparently indeed never did).
Pittbull 10-29-05, 09:26 AM	I think we should exclude Miniquest for gathering companioins or joining a Guild. I like Cats idea, because it spoils the original idea of the CoCo, the arena-fights. Hagrid won't fight against monsters for the next time, but only against Gladiators. If he has to sit out and wait, my new build Barthleby (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5203496) will jump in. Would someone be so nice and check him for errors? Thanks a lot!
Caterane 10-29-05, 09:31 AM	@Pittbull: If you remember, we found some problems with the variety of companions (The "A horse for all" discussion). Players like Zerone first accumulated a whole zoo before they entered the arena. These should definately count. And guild quests don't make the cow fat. Besides, that restricts guild hopping.
Pittbull 10-29-05, 09:33 AM	Hm, ok! :)
TelinArtho 10-29-05, 10:21 AM	Really? I never read the campaign but Kaigan could have told me instead of gathering 3 credits every week for nothing. I think that was his last campaign. I'll give you the credits back and delete the [C] from your PC. However, you won't get any xp or items then. The Campaign just never happened (which it apparently indeed never did). Yeah - none of us gained xp or items for the campaign - so I would definitely appreciate more compensation on it. With regard to the monster fights then, is it possible to ask to NOT be paired if the result is a monster fight then? [so if there is an uneven number and Delaria would normally get a monster fight - I'd rather have her sit out]
Begferdeth 10-29-05, 10:49 AM	Silly question for everybody: If somebody had a burrow speed, could they charge from underground or through walls?
LLMadCow 10-29-05, 10:49 AM	Yeah - none of us gained xp or items for the campaign - so I would definitely appreciate more compensation on it. With regard to the monster fights then, is it possible to ask to NOT be paired if the result is a monster fight then? [so if there is an uneven number and Delaria would normally get a monster fight - I'd rather have her sit out] Take note of: Filling up your allotment is only possible if you do it consciously so it affects only those who do prove a problem. There's not a single PC that is restricted atm. And besides, well, see it as a new restriction. There is no reason to dodge a monster fight if there are plenty of gladiators to fight. When pairings are done, if there are ... say ... 5 people all ready to fight and you get assigned the monster fight, this does not count against you. On a related note.... @Cat - How are you going to track what monster fights do or do not count against you? Also, I think the current setup discourages people from readying their PCs. Why not change it to: Monster fights will only be assigned if there are at least 4 other gladiators competeing at your level, unless specifically requested by the player; when a player requests a monster fight under these circumstances, it counts against their total 'Special Battle Count' LLMC
LLMadCow 10-29-05, 11:00 AM	Silly question for everybody: If somebody had a burrow speed, could they charge from underground or through walls? No. Burrow: A creature with a burrow speed can tunnel through dirt, but not through rock unless the descriptive text says otherwise. Creatures cannot charge or run while burrowing.
Cerebus13 10-29-05, 11:03 AM	With regard to the monster fights then, is it possible to ask to NOT be paired if the result is a monster fight then? [so if there is an uneven number and Delaria would normally get a monster fight - I'd rather have her sit out]Indeed, I would rather not be paired for a week than get a monster fight if it is going to count against this new restricted total for quests and whatnot. .... @Cat This new rule still does not perfectly address the problem of a player leveling quickly by solely doing quests. With the EL limit on quests being ECL+8...this means that a player could easily do a single quest per 3 weeks with sufficiently high EL that they would level every time. Then once they have reached a level they want to begin fighting at (say ECL 12 or something), they can simply stop doing quests.
sloisel 10-29-05, 01:09 PM	@Cat This new rule still does not perfectly address the problem I just read the new rule proposal, and I also think it isn't a perfect fit for the problem (and I never quest, campaign and barely ever fight monsters, so I'm not even affected by it.) If I understand, the problem is people opening up high leagues and fighting monsters all the time. Your solution is an indirect disincentive to that, but it clearly won't stop it. Why don't you solve the problem directly? A league may not be opened until it has sufficiently many gladiators. I mean, that's what the problem is, right? Why take the long way around solving it? At least four characters must be generally active in a given league for that league to be open. Every week, if a league opens or closes, you can post it in the tavern. If you want to cap the number of quests and campaigns, be my guest; those don't generally occur by accident like monster fights. Sébastien Loisel
Sindorin 10-29-05, 01:32 PM	I just read the new rule proposal, and I also think it isn't a perfect fit for the problem (and I never quest, campaign and barely ever fight monsters, so I'm not even affected by it.) If I understand, the problem is people opening up high leagues and fighting monsters all the time. Your solution is an indirect disincentive to that, but it clearly won't stop it. Why don't you solve the problem directly? A league may not be opened until it has sufficiently many gladiators. I mean, that's what the problem is, right? Why take the long way around solving it? At least four characters must be generally active in a given league for that league to be open. Every week, if a league opens or closes, you can post it in the tavern. If you want to cap the number of quests and campaigns, be my guest; those don't generally occur by accident like monster fights. Sébastien Loisel My thoughts exactly! This is how it has been treated in the past - when I joined there were around 12 gladiators frozen at level 13. This may seem like it would have been sufficient, but some of you may recall that you all had faced each other, I'm pretty sure. Regardless, they wanted to wait until the league looked much differently, and at the same time to promote a more competetive spirit similar to Nascar's Chase for the Cup (okay, bad reference, I know). The bottom line - simply don't allow questing to occur beyond the levels currently active (8 feels like the only one with sufficient number of actives, though 9 has some). There is a big Deepskyblue FROZEN next to those leagues anyway. It just seems logical that if our old characters (or new) cannot fight in the arena, they should not be allowed to quest at those levels, either.
TheMagister 10-29-05, 02:47 PM	Regardless, they wanted to wait until the league looked much differently, and at the same time to promote a more competetive spirit similar to Nascar's Chase for the Cup (okay, bad reference, I know). I'm not trying to be inciteful at all; this is a genuine question, and not necessarily directed at Sindorin. Since when was this a competition? I thought we were all here to learn and experiment, using the coliseum as a...well, a game board, I guess. So what if they fight monsters and level faster? Let 'em. TM
One_Winged_Angel 10-29-05, 03:11 PM	Ok, different angle. Can you activate an animated shield and 'hand' it to your mount? ???
TheMagister 10-29-05, 03:29 PM	??? Sorry 'bout that...I figured Tellish or someone would be all over that question. I wouldn't think the answer to your question would be "yes", and this is why: Animated: Upon command, an animated shield floats within 2 feet of the wielder, protecting her as if she were using it herself but freeing up both her hands. Only one shield can protect a character at a time. A character with an animated shield still takes any penalties associated with shield use, such as armor check penalty, arcane spell failure chance, and nonproficiency. They seem to be emphasizing that this ability only works for a being that a) knows the command word, and b) can wield the shield. Further: A command word can be a real word, but when this is the case, the holder of the item runs the risk of activating the item accidentally by speaking the word in normal conversation. More often, the command word is some seemingly nonsensical word, or a word or phrase from an ancient language no longer in common use. Activating a command word magic item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. it seems here that the shield only works for "the holder" who also has to speak the command word. For example, this would prevent an enemy bard from saying the command word and causing the party fighter's animated shield to start floating without his approval. Or letting a non-combatant (like a follower) activate the shield FOR the owner so that the owner doesn't burn up a standard action. And finally, for the last reason: It just sounds munchkin, doesn't it? TM
Snommelp 10-29-05, 03:44 PM	I get the feeling that most of the scrolls in the SRD are priced as though written by wizards... what's the price if I want, say, a bardic scroll of invisibility? 12.5 x level of spell x level of caster? If that's right, that would be... 200 gp. Am I right?
TheMagister 10-29-05, 04:00 PM	Not really any such thing as a "bardic" scroll, but I'm just pokin' fun at you. The answer to your question is "yes", if the bard in question was the only source for your scroll of invisibility, and you just HAD to have it, it would cost you 200gp. TM
Sindorin 10-29-05, 04:43 PM	I'm not trying to be inciteful at all; this is a genuine question, and not necessarily directed at Sindorin. Since when was this a competition? I thought we were all here to learn and experiment, using the coliseum as a...well, a game board, I guess. So what if they fight monsters and level faster? Let 'em. TM In the old CoCo we had the level 13 tier freeze until there were 16 gladiators in it, and then we had a "race to 20". I believe that falls under the category of 'competetive'.
MysticMonk2005 10-29-05, 05:10 PM	I say let people unlock the higher leagues ASAP!! There are people waiting for months for thier favorite build to open up!!!!
One_Winged_Angel 10-29-05, 05:22 PM	Question: Exactly how much cover is gained from using a mount as cover, as per the ride skill? +4?
Snommelp 10-29-05, 05:30 PM	Not really any such thing as a "bardic" scroll, but I'm just pokin' fun at you. The answer to your question is "yes", if the bard in question was the only source for your scroll of invisibility, and you just HAD to have it, it would cost you 200gp. TM So now I have a question based on your implied answer: can a bard cast a spell from a scroll if it's on his spell list but was scribed by a wizard? That seems to be what you're implying, but I want to be sure. If the answer is yes, there's another question: the wizard could scribe it at third level, but the bard technically can't cast it until fourth. Would a level 3 bard have to make a caster level check to cast from the scroll, even though the wizard that scribed it was the same level?
NiQil 10-29-05, 05:35 PM	So now I have a question based on your implied answer: can a bard cast a spell from a scroll if it's on his spell list but was scribed by a wizard? That seems to be what you're implying, but I want to be sure. If the answer is yes, there's another question: the wizard could scribe it at third level, but the bard technically can't cast it until fourth. Would a level 3 bard have to make a caster level check to cast from the scroll, even though the wizard that scribed it was the same level? As long as the spell is on his list, he can use the scroll, but would need to make a caster level check if he is not of the required level to be able to cast the spell that is on his list. For instance, if the bard was 3rd level (giving him 1st level spells), but got a scroll of a spell that was a 2nd level spell for bards, he would need to make a caster level check to be able to use the scroll, because he is not of a level to be able to cast 2nd level spells yet. Otherwise, yes, as long as it is on his list, he can use it. Doesn't matter where it came from.
Snommelp 10-29-05, 05:41 PM	As long as the spell is on his list, he can use the scroll, but would need to make a caster level check if he is not of the required level to be able to cast the spell that is on his list. For instance, if the bard was 3rd level (giving him 1st level spells), but got a scroll of a spell that was a 2nd level spell for bards, he would need to make a caster level check to be able to use the scroll, because he is not of a level to be able to cast 2nd level spells yet. Otherwise, yes, as long as it is on his list, he can use it. Doesn't matter where it came from.All right, thanks. That's helpful. Expect to see a new character from me shortly after I finish my fights for this week.
Caterane 10-29-05, 05:54 PM	I just read the new rule proposal, and I also think it isn't a perfect fit for the problem (and I never quest, campaign and barely ever fight monsters, so I'm not even affected by it.) If I understand, the problem is people opening up high leagues and fighting monsters all the time. Your solution is an indirect disincentive to that, but it clearly won't stop it. Why don't you solve the problem directly? A league may not be opened until it has sufficiently many gladiators. I mean, that's what the problem is, right? Why take the long way around solving it? At least four characters must be generally active in a given league for that league to be open. Every week, if a league opens or closes, you can post it in the tavern. If you want to cap the number of quests and campaigns, be my guest; those don't generally occur by accident like monster fights. Sébastien Loisel As you can see, there are 4+ gladiators at level 6-8 yet those who are active still do monster fights either because they're the only active PC, or only rematches are there. A side effect of the new rule is that PCs have to see the arena once in a while unless they really quest or campaign only which is ok. But no one should level by doing miniquests or monster fights. Both should be seen as emergency fights - one for those who won't quest, the other for uneven leagues - and not as the main method to gain xp.
TheMagister 10-29-05, 05:58 PM	A side effect of the new rule is that PCs have to see the arena once in a while unless they really quest or campaign only which is ok. But no one should level by doing miniquests or monster fights. Both should be seen as emergency fights - one for those who won't quest, the other for uneven leagues - and not as the main method to gain xp. Asked in honesty: Why should anybody *care how someone else's character levels? We're here to test builds and learn how to think about rule interaction and to see certain rules IN action. Since when is this a power struggle? TM
Caterane 10-29-05, 06:13 PM	The center of this board - the Core Coliseum - is the coliseum.
Snommelp 10-29-05, 06:18 PM	Mounts and familiars act on their master's initiative - is the same true for animal companions? I want to say yes, but I don't want to have to rerun a fight from the beginning because I messed up initiative.
NiQil 10-29-05, 06:30 PM	Mounts and familiars act on their master's initiative - is the same true for animal companions? I want to say yes, but I don't want to have to rerun a fight from the beginning because I messed up initiative. Yes and no. Technically, they are entitled to their own initiative roll. Familiars are as well. Mounts that aren't mounted are also. However, when most people write tactics, in my experience anyway, they assume that their allies will be on the same initiative count as they are. Some even specify this in their tactics. If the tactics don't give any indication that the player had a preference, then it falls to the pitlord. As I said....by the RAW they are entitled to their own initiative roll, but as a pitlord, having an ally move on it's master's initiative count is by far easier and less hassle. So it's really your call, if the tactics don't specify.
Snommelp 10-29-05, 06:54 PM	Yes and no. Technically, they are entitled to their own initiative roll. Familiars are as well. Mounts that aren't mounted are also. However, when most people write tactics, in my experience anyway, they assume that their allies will be on the same initiative count as they are. Some even specify this in their tactics. If the tactics don't give any indication that the player had a preference, then it falls to the pitlord. As I said....by the RAW they are entitled to their own initiative roll, but as a pitlord, having an ally move on it's master's initiative count is by far easier and less hassle. So it's really your call, if the tactics don't specify. Thanks again, NiQil. I'll go with the easy solution and put them on the same initiative. And by the way: GAH! My e-mail server is too slow! I still haven't gotten notification of your response, which happened almost half an hour ago!
Snommelp 10-29-05, 07:58 PM	New question: I got some tactics saying that a ten-foot reach negates the AoO usually provoked when trying to start a grapple. I don't see that mentined anywhere in the grapple rules, and I can see both sides of the argument. On the one hand, if you can't reach your opponent, you shouldn't be able to hit him. On the other hand, if your opponent is reaching out to grab you, it makes sense that you can attack the arm he's trying to start a grapple with. What's the verdict?
Tellish_of_Ket 10-29-05, 09:33 PM	New question: I got some tactics saying that a ten-foot reach negates the AoO usually provoked when trying to start a grapple. I don't see that mentined anywhere in the grapple rules, and I can see both sides of the argument. On the one hand, if you can't reach your opponent, you shouldn't be able to hit him. On the other hand, if your opponent is reaching out to grab you, it makes sense that you can attack the arm he's trying to start a grapple with. What's the verdict? The person without reach would not be able to take his AoO vs the person with reach. And Familiars/mounts/animal companions go on their masters initiative and nothing else. How it works is, master acts then familiar/companion act. Allies through leadership, diplomacy, handle animal, rebuked/created undead etc...get their own initiative and nothing else. -ToK
Snommelp 10-29-05, 09:38 PM	Thanks, ToK. Good thing I waited; now I only have to fix one round that's in error as opposed to who knows how many... Also, to replace the retired gold-smith Ielenia, I present to you Hennan the pious bard. Hooray for Gregorian chant!
NiQil 10-29-05, 09:45 PM	The person without reach would not be able to take his AoO vs the person with reach. And Familiars/mounts/animal companions go on their masters initiative and nothing else. How it works is, master acts then familiar/companion act. Allies through leadership, diplomacy, handle animal, rebuked/created undead etc...get their own initiative and nothing else. -ToK With regard to the initiative bit...I'm curious, ToK...is this a house rule? Why would they not get their own initiative? I'm not aware of any rule that prohibits something from getting an initiative roll of its own. The only exception that I know if is with regard to mounts and their opponents, and that is only if the mount is actually being ridden.
Tellish_of_Ket 10-29-05, 10:16 PM	With regard to the initiative bit...I'm curious, ToK...is this a house rule? Why would they not get their own initiative? I'm not aware of any rule that prohibits something from getting an initiative roll of its own. The only exception that I know if is with regard to mounts and their opponents, and that is only if the mount is actually being ridden. Not a house rule at all.
NiQil 10-29-05, 10:18 PM	Not a house rule at all. Could you, then, please point to the source of this rule, so that I may make myself familiar with it?
Tellish_of_Ket 10-29-05, 10:25 PM	Could you, then, please point to the source of this rule, so that I may make myself familiar with it? Actually PHB is very specific in saying it's the DM's option. That much i know, but i don't have specific source to quote. But if a familiar is on the masters shoulder, it goes on it's masters initiative just as the master riding his horse. It's possible, that i could be wrong with the druids animal companion and such. But if you have anything source to condradict that, other than "roll initiative for each seperate combatant" quote, i'm all ears. -ToK
NiQil 10-29-05, 10:42 PM	Actually PHB is very specific in saying it's the DM's option. That much i know, but i don't have specific source to quote. But if a familiar is on the masters shoulder, it goes on it's masters initiative just as the master riding his horse. It's possible, that i could be wrong with the druids animal companion and such. But if you have anything source to condradict that, other than "roll initiative for each seperate combatant" quote, i'm all ears. -ToK I would agree that if the familiar starts by using his master as a mount, it would work the same way as a master riding a mount...they would get the same initiative count (that of the master). But animal companions, cohorts, familiars, paladin mounts and other allies, when not falling into the above mentioned exceptions, should, to my knowledge, get their own initiative roll. They do have their own initiative scores, after all. Here is what I found in the DMG...I believe this is what you are referring to. A paladin's mount is as smart as some characters. Giant eagles, giant owls, and pegasi are all highly intelligent. When such creatres are part of the action, you have two choices. 1) You can force the mount to act on it's rider's initiative, just like mounts of animal intelligence. This means that mount and rider act, essentially, simultaneously. 2) You can ask the player to make a seperate initiative check for the mount. This means the mount moves and attacks at its own place in the initiative order, reinforcing its nature as a seperate character. However, that may be extremely inconvenient for a rider who is carried away from her opponent! In such cases, of course, the rider can always delay to synchronize her initiative check result with her mount's. Likewise, the mount may choose to delay to coincide its movement with its rider's. The way this is worded, it implies that as long as the creature in question is not being used as a mount, it gets its own initiative roll. It talks about the two exceptions you have already mentioned, that being something used as a mount, and by extension, a familiar using its master as a mount. But other than that, to me anyway, it is written with the assumption that creatures otherwise involved should get their own initiative check.
Tellish_of_Ket 10-29-05, 10:58 PM	I would agree that if the familiar starts by using his master as a mount, it would work the same way as a master riding a mount...they would get the same initiative count (that of the master). But animal companions, cohorts, familiars, paladin mounts and other allies, when not falling into the above mentioned exceptions, should, to my knowledge, get their own initiative roll. They do have their own initiative scores, after all. Here is what I found in the DMG...I believe this is what you are referring to. The way this is worded, it implies that as long as the creature in question is not being used as a mount, it gets its own initiative roll. It talks about the two exceptions you have already mentioned, that being something used as a mount, and by extension, a familiar using its master as a mount. But other than that, to me anyway, it is written with the assumption that creatures otherwise involved should get their own initiative check. Uhm...just curious what we are debating if we agree then? I believe that's what i also stated in my first post. If not, then i guess i was unclear. companions, undead allies, mounts not being ridden, leadership cohorts, etc... not riding or being ridden get their own inits, OPTIONALLY they can have the same init as their master. <unless specifed by a player, tactically to roll seperate inits, i will always use the same init>. familiar on masters shoulder, or master on familiar shoulders, mounted combatants etc...get one initiatiative. -ToK
NiQil 10-29-05, 11:19 PM	Uhm...just curious what we are debating if we agree then? I believe that's what i also stated in my first post. If not, then i guess i was unclear. companions, undead allies, mounts not being ridden, leadership cohorts, etc... not riding or being ridden get their own inits, OPTIONALLY they can have the same init as their master. <unless specifed by a player, tactically to roll seperate inits, i will always use the same init>. familiar on masters shoulder, or master on familiar shoulders, mounted combatants etc...get one initiatiative. -ToK LOL we are debating because this... The person without reach would not be able to take his AoO vs the person with reach. And Familiars/mounts/animal companions go on their masters initiative and nothing else. How it works is, master acts then familiar/companion act. Allies through leadership, diplomacy, handle animal, rebuked/created undead etc...get their own initiative and nothing else. -ToK ...is what you originally said, which is partly correct, and partly incorrect. But yes....after clarification, we agree.
Snommelp 10-30-05, 01:01 AM	Have you ever noticed how debates can keep a last-post-of-the-page from being noticed? With that said, here's Hennan for your rules-lawyering pleasure. Any mistakes worth noting?
KerlanRayne 10-30-05, 01:47 AM	As long as the spell is on his list, he can use the scroll, but would need to make a caster level check if he is not of the required level to be able to cast the spell that is on his list. For instance, if the bard was 3rd level (giving him 1st level spells), but got a scroll of a spell that was a 2nd level spell for bards, he would need to make a caster level check to be able to use the scroll, because he is not of a level to be able to cast 2nd level spells yet. Otherwise, yes, as long as it is on his list, he can use it. Doesn't matter where it came from.He would not have to make a caster level check. If he is 3rd level and the scroll has a caster level of 3 then he cane use it whether he can cast 2nd level spells normally or not. To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements. * The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.) * The user must have the spell on his or her class list. * The user must have the requisite ability score. If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully.
Enterik 10-30-05, 02:32 AM	...in adjacent threatened square?
Vathelokai 10-30-05, 02:47 AM	AOO on invisible target...in adjacent threatened square?Yes, assuming you have some way of knowing they are there. The invis opponent still gets the 50% miss chance to avoid the AOO, as they do with all attacks.
NiQil 10-30-05, 02:49 AM	He would not have to make a caster level check. If he is 3rd level and the scroll has a caster level of 3 then he cane use it whether he can cast 2nd level spells normally or not. So I used incorrect numbers...sue me. The point I was trying to make is that he would need to make a caster level check if his bard level is lower than the caster level of the scroll, which it says in the portion of the quote after your emphasized portion. And if it was a bardic scroll, my example would be correct, since a 2nd level bardic spell carries a caster level of 4th. In that circumstance, it *would depend on who crafted the scroll, since that is what the caster level is based from.
Begferdeth 10-30-05, 09:33 AM	@ Snommelp: Yup, one big mistake I see. Its a bard. And there just isnt enough room in this here arena for both him AND Fjord. Lemme see... 3 lbs of vocal implants? Ouch. Your really gonna hate it when I sunder that. And I wonder if you should get a charisma penalty for having a massive metal hunk of junk rammed into your neck... The penalty for taht would explain why you dont have a bonus 1st level spell for you high charisma. You cant use it, but its there... But, other that that, looks good to me.
Snommelp 10-30-05, 12:40 PM	Lemme see... 3 lbs of vocal implants? Ouch. Your really gonna hate it when I sunder that. And I wonder if you should get a charisma penalty for having a massive metal hunk of junk rammed into your neck... Standard weight for a Masterwork Instrument. I just made it fit his perform skill. If you'd like, I could make it a masterwork megaphone instead. The penalty for taht would explain why you dont have a bonus 1st level spell for you high charisma. You cant use it, but its there...You're right, I did forget the bonus first level spell. Doesn't matter now, but it will matter later... fixed!
TheMagister 10-30-05, 12:58 PM	Yes, assuming you have some way of knowing they are there. The invis opponent still gets the 50% miss chance to avoid the AOO, as they do with all attacks. Nope. You can't execute an AoO against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies. Crystal clear. Sorry, Vath! TM
Tellish_of_Ket 10-30-05, 01:28 PM	Hmmm...my reply must have timed out. I basically said the same. -ToK
Vathelokai 10-30-05, 04:52 PM	Nope. (no aoo vs. total concealment) Crystal clear. Sorry, Vath! TM Oops. Some day, some glorious day, I will figure out how to play this game! *edit* My applogies to Enterik.
Vathelokai 10-30-05, 07:38 PM	Breath Weapon (Su): Using a breath weapon is a standard action. Once a dragon breathes, it can’t breathe again until 1d4 rounds later. If a dragon has more than one type of breath weapon, it still can breathe only once every 1d4 rounds. Breath Weapon (Su): A breath weapon attack usually deals damage and is often based on some type of energy. Such breath weapons allow a Reflex save for half damage (DC 10 + 1/2 breathing creature’s racial HD + breathing creature’s Con modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). A creature is immune to its own breath weapon unless otherwise noted. Some breath weapons allow a Fortitude save or a Will save instead of a Reflex save. BREATH WEAPON A creature attacking with a breath weapon is actually expelling something from its mouth (rather than conjuring it by means of a spell or some other magical effect). Most creatures with breath weapons are limited to a number of uses per day or by a minimum length of time that must pass between uses. Such creatures are usually smart enough to save their breath weapon until they really need it. *Using a breath weapon is typically a standard action. *No attack roll is necessary. The breath simply fills its stated area. *Any character caught in the area must make the appropriate saving throw or suffer the breath weapon’s full effect. In many cases, a character who succeeds on his saving throw still takes half damage or some other reduced effect. *Breath weapons are supernatural abilities except where noted. *Creatures are immune to their own breath weapons. *Creatures unable to breathe can still use breath weapons. (The term is something of a misnomer.) I'm wondering how long the recharge on a dragon's breath weapon actually takes. The SRD says 1d4 rounds. Does '1 round later' mean usable on the next initiative, or does '1 round later' mean usable after one full round has passed? In the sblock are the only 3 references I can find, and none of them are very specific.
Tellish_of_Ket 10-30-05, 08:51 PM	Actually i had the same question. The most logical would be to follow the standard 1d4 rds later...meaning if you roll a 1, one complete round must pass before using it again. OF course, that could also mean next round, who knows really. I've always been of the opinion it's the NEXT round (assuming you roll a 1), but it also makes sense to have it one full round later. -ToK
Snommelp 10-30-05, 10:27 PM	I've started Archie vs. Alac. It might take a while, since Archie had no contingencies for if Alac pulled an Obscuring Mist. I have a question, though: what's the speed of a Spectral Hand?
Book5 10-30-05, 10:38 PM	@ Breath Weapon You can BW an AoO right? I figure 1 round later means next round but not until then. 2 rounds means not the next round but the one after that. 3 rounds means not next round not the one after that, but the one after that... et,
TelinArtho 10-30-05, 10:52 PM	@ Breath Weapon You can BW an AoO right? I figure 1 round later means next round but not until then. 2 rounds means not the next round but the one after that. 3 rounds means not next round not the one after that, but the one after that... et, Actually - I'm not sure you can. An AoO is not a free standard action, but rather a single attack action. A breath weapon is a special ability and while it can be done in a standard action, it is clearly not an Attack action (otherwise, you'd be able to do it as part of a full attack).
Snommelp 10-30-05, 11:33 PM	I've started Archie vs. Alac. It might take a while, since Archie had no contingencies for if Alac pulled an Obscuring Mist. I have a question, though: what's the speed of a Spectral Hand? The spell has no listing for the hand's speed. Would I be safe in assuming it can move the full range of the spell in one round?
Tellish_of_Ket 10-30-05, 11:37 PM	The spell has no listing for the hand's speed. Would I be safe in assuming it can move the full range of the spell in one round? Yes. And if it hits it returns to the caster's side. -ToK
Snommelp 10-30-05, 11:40 PM	Yes. And if it hits it returns to the caster's side. -ToK All right, then. Archie's hand is going to zip into the mist, realize that it's out of her sight, and zip back to her side. This should be an interesting part of the match; one character using delay tactics that the other wasn't expecting and has no contingency for.
Tellish_of_Ket 10-30-05, 11:57 PM	All right, then. Archie's hand is going to zip into the mist, realize that it's out of her sight, and zip back to her side. This should be an interesting part of the match; one character using delay tactics that the other wasn't expecting and has no contingency for. That's where pitlord adaptation comes in. Just try to follow the plan to the best of their ability. If if Archie knew where the person last was, it would still be a 50/50 miss chance, unless it's beyond the spell range completely. -ToK
Snommelp 10-31-05, 12:05 AM	That's where pitlord adaptation comes in. Just try to follow the plan to the best of their ability. If if Archie knew where the person last was, it would still be a 50/50 miss chance, unless it's beyond the spell range completely. -ToK Oh, I'm improvising, but there's still a length of time where essentially nothing happens, because Archie's wanting to use her spectral hand, which won't leave her sight, and Alac's not leaving the mist. His bat's out of the mist now, though, so improv can begin for Archie.
Tellish_of_Ket 10-31-05, 12:16 AM	After reading over the tactics you posted, it looks to be an interesting fight. -ToK
LongArcher 10-31-05, 12:23 AM	Since it's currently being run, I guess I will just sit and wait for the fight to be posted. /amz
Snommelp 10-31-05, 01:17 AM	Since it's currently being run, I guess I will just sit and wait for the fight to be posted. /amz Well, you don't have to wait any more. It's up. It was a horror of a match to try to pitlord, which I guess is fitting since Halloween begins here in just 40 minutes.
waywreth 10-31-05, 09:23 AM	Do you have to pay 100gp per spell level in inks to scribe a new spell or do you just pay 100gp? If it's the former (which I think it is, it's time to send myself to jail). Thanks,
Sindorin 10-31-05, 09:25 AM	You have to pay 100 per page, and each spell is 1 page per spell level (yes, it does get a bit expensive...). For each new character level, though, you get two free spells in any level up to the highest that you can cast. If you are a specialist wizard, one of those free spells must be in your specialized school.
Tellish_of_Ket 10-31-05, 09:31 AM	You have to pay 100 per page, and each spell is 1 page per spell level (yes, it does get a bit expensive...). For each new character level, though, you get two free spells in any level up to the highest that you can cast. If you are a specialist wizard, one of those free spells must be in your specialized school. A Boccob's Blessed Book really really really helps reduce those costs. If you are a single-classed wizard (or close to it), i say it is mandatory if you want a good spell selection. If you only need a few spells and you can make due with 2 per level, with only one or two extra, then don't bother. -ToK
Sindorin 10-31-05, 10:11 AM	Happy Halloween everyone! My hair is pink today!
Snommelp 10-31-05, 10:20 AM	Sin has pink hair? It's... it's too terrible! Don't look directly at it!! :D I can't say anything; I'm dressed up like Gilligan.
Sindorin 10-31-05, 10:21 AM	Well, I sort of have pink hair... my hair is a bit too dark for it to work very well. Good times, though.
One_Winged_Angel 10-31-05, 10:22 AM	Happy Halloween everyone! My hair is pink today! Mine's brown. Here are some costume ideas for everyone ;) Cat-> :schemes: Any Regulars -> :angel: Tellish -> :angelhide MysticMonk -> :fight!: Iced -> :mage: LLMadCow -> :dragon: The Prisonlords -> :88E: Me -> :turkey: Anyone who has declined a challange! -> :chicken: Happy Halloween everyone! :pumpkin:
Myrridin 10-31-05, 10:27 AM	I am still looking to pick up players for either a Quest, or a Campaign. Any takers?
TelinArtho 10-31-05, 10:29 AM	@Myrridin - I can have something for you next week once Delaria gets to 4th level. She would've been ready this week - but SOMEONE... (not mentioning names...) beat her this week and she's not quite there... Anyway - I'm still working out what she'll quest for - but I'll take you up on it next week - if that's alright.
Guildmaster (WAR) 10-31-05, 10:43 AM	This Halloween, the Warfare Alliance Guildmaster will be dressed up as a Warforged Colossus! ...wait... A Warforged Colossus with pink hair!
TelinArtho 10-31-05, 11:19 AM	@ToK and Snommelp: So what's going on next week? Is Aquin facing Krunch alone or is it Aquin/Grik vs Krunch and Pale Rider? I'm fine with either set-up, but I try to plan things in advance. Just trying to plan for next week... Speaking of Aquin and Grik - where's Luni with my massacre?
Cerebus13 10-31-05, 11:28 AM	Recently rules have been changing rather frequently within the CoCo, and I find it hard to find all of these changes at quick glance when I'm putting together a character idea. I came up with the FAQ thread a while ago and I've been editting it in other places for my own use. If people find something like this useful we could start a seperate thread (under a communal account possibly) that could be kept updated. This is just a start obviously, but I'm sure people have many questions that have been answered that would fit on a list like this. ----- Question: Do you have to roll Move Silently while flying under a Fly spell? Answer: Yes Contributors: Zerone Question: Can you pull out an item during a grapple? Answer: No, it is not on the actions available during a grapple list. Contributors: LLMadCow Question: Can you use a Power Completion item during a grapple? Answer: Yes, only spell completion items are prohibited. Contributors: LLMadCow Question: Do manifester levels from multiple classes stack? Answer: Yes they do. However ML is still capped to the class using a particular power when it comes to calculating how many PPs can be spent for a single power. Contributors: LLMadCow Question: Do you get bonus power points from high ability scores more than once if you have multiple psionic classes with different primary ability scores? Answer: Yes for classes besides Psionic Fist and Warmind. Contributors: LLMadCow Question: Can you use the concealment granted by the Blur spell to Hide? Answer: No because there isn't anything being placed in between yourself and anyone that you would be hiding from. Contributors: Jindl Question: Does Protection from <alignment> work against the spell Hold Person? Answer: No. (was addressed in a WOTC released FAQ) Contributors: LLMadCow Question: Do penalties for multiclassing apply? Answer: Yes. They apply to both XP and GP however in order to prevent abuse. Contributors: Caterane Question: Do have to list customized feats & skills for purchased animals on the Blackmarket thread? Answer: No, these do not cost credits and thus do not have to be listed. Contributors: Caterane Question: Can Energy Missile be used to sunder attended objects/equipment on a character? Answer: No, it can only target unattended objects such as a dropped sword or a chair. Contributors: King Uther, Tellish of Ket Question: Can an animal be trained to use grapple attacks? Answer: Yes, it is considered a custom trick that is not listed within the Handle Animal skill description. Contributors: Caterane - here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7261110&postcount=135) Question: Can animals be taught new tricks that are not included on the Handle Animal list? Answer: Yes, but they require an Elder's or the Pitlords account's approval. Contributors: Caterane - here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7261110&postcount=135) Question: If one was to want to take a paladin and take him into the blackguard prestige class....could the alignment change and the outsider contact both be done in the same quest, or would there have to be two seperate quests done in order to accomplish both requirements? Answer: You could easily accomplish both in one quest. Contributors: Tellish of Ket - here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7269260&postcount=3059) Question: If a character chose an animal template for Lycanthropy that had wings....would the character gain wings (and equivalent flight speed) when in Hybrid form? Answer: Yes, you keep your wings. Contributors: Tellish of Ket - here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7269260&postcount=3059) Question: How do Armor Spikes work in grapples? Answer: You may either inflict normal damage with them using a grapple check (the "Damage Your Opponent" grapple option), or by using them as a light weapon and rolling an attack roll with a -4 penalty (the "Attack Your Opponent" grapple option). Contributors: D&D Game FAQ - here (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a), Cerebus, Tellish of Ket - here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7269260&postcount=3059), Community vote - here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7283289&postcount=3121) Question: May Bats & Toads (and other animals without a Natural attack) make touch attacks for the purposes of discharging touch spells? Answer: Yes. Contributors: Tellish of Ket (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7635120&postcount=758) & LLMadCow & other Elders (see posts before and slightly after ToK's for everyone's opinion) Question: How much does the Skate power cost when purchased as a Psionic Tattoo? Answer: Double normal price like other personal tattoos. Contributors: Caterane Question: Can monks take the Improved Natural Attack feat and have it apply to their unarmed strike damage? Answer: Yes Contributors: D&D FAQ Question: How does spot & cover work in the CoCo? Answer: You are autospotted if you leave cover or concealment, and an opponent has Line of Sight to you if you are more than 1 foot per rank in Hide away from a cover. Contributors: The Rules of Gladius: Skills and Feats (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6466576) Question: How does the Listen skill work with the various walls and obstacles in the CoCo? Answer: Because none of the walls in the CoCo arena enclose any areas that players can enter none of the modifiers for Listening through walls apply. Contributors: SRD interpretation & CoCo maps Question: How do Protection from <alignment> spells work against targets with Spell Resistance. Answer: Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. Good summoned creatures are immune to this effect. The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature. Spell resistance can allow a creature to overcome this protection and touch the warded creature.From this quote from the Protection from Evil spell the bolded section reveals that SR allows a summoned target a chance to touch a warded opponent. Contributors: SRD Question: Is there any way for animals to be proficient with armor besides taking the armor usage Feats? Answer: Yes, if an animal has the Combat Riding trick package they are considered proficient with all armor. Contributors: The Rules of Gladius: Skills and Feats (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6466576) Question: What mount animals require the Combat Riding trick package so that they are not easily scared in combat? Answer: Horse A horse (other than a pony) is suitable as a mount for a human, dwarf, elf, half-elf, or half-orc. A pony is smaller than a horse and is a suitable mount for a gnome or halfling. Heavy warhorses, light warhorses and warponies can be ridden easily into combat. Light horses, ponies, and heavy horses are hard to control in combat.This quote from the SRD indicates that only light horses, ponies, and heavy horses can be scared in combat and thus they all require the Combat Riding trick package to be ridden into battle without penalty. Contributors: SRD Question: Can a Sahugin use his rake ability in a grapple...out of the water? Answer: Yes. They can also use their rake ability without being in a grapple IF they are underwater. Contributors: Tellish of Ket - here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7662945&postcount=105) Question: Can you ready a move action to avoid a spell being cast at you? Answer: No. Contributors: Tellish of Ket - here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7698629&postcount=269) Question: How do natural weapons work in a grapple? Answer: Natural weapons may be used in the "Attack your Opponent" option to grant an attack with each part of a Natural Attack routine, with a -4 penalty to each attack...or they can be used to deal damage with the "Grapple your Opponent" option that can be used a number of times based on Base Attack Bonus. This damage is the same type of the Natural Attack (usually lethal). Contributors: Caterane & Rules of the Game article on grappling Question: Can you purchase a Composite bow tailored to someone with a strength of less than 10? Answer: No, the default Composite bow tailored to strength 10 is the lowest you can go. Contributors: CoCo community Question: Can poison on weapons be carried over from fight to fight since it has no expiration time? Answer: No. Contributors: Caterane Question: Can a Trained skill be used if you only have 1/2 of a rank in it? (possible if it is a cross-class skill) Answer: No, at least 1 full Rank is required to use a Trained skill. Contributors: LLMadCow Question: Can the psionic magic item modifier, Powerstoring, be added to arrows? Answer: No. Contributors: Caterane - here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7815933&postcount=331) Question: If you have the trample feat and are riding a mount other than a horse (and something that doesn't have a listed hoof attack - like a Bison...), can the mount make an attack during the overrun? Answer: Yes...essentially, it doesn't have to be a hoof attack, but it does have to be an attack made by the "feet" of the mount. So a claw attack is fine (say if you are mounted on a bear or lion), but a riding dog (who has no "foot" attack, just the bite) would get no free attack. Contributors: TelinArtho, D&D FAQ (page 15) Question: Can a Psionic Tattoo be placed on a mount/ally and then activated by someone else later? Answer: No, you can only activate another's Tattoos if they are unconscious. The best way to emulate this is to teach your mount the trick Tap (Tattoo), or wear a Crawling Tattoo on yourself and have it crawl over to the ally/mount. Contributors: SRD
TelinArtho 10-31-05, 11:44 AM	Nice list cerebus - I think that will help alleviate a lot of questions. As to where to put it - it might be worthwhile to include as the header page to each tavern thread - as a separate FAQ might get lost if not frequented (or bumped by all of us). Still, having it under a CoCo account would definitely be far better - so consider this my vote for the same...
TelinArtho 10-31-05, 11:46 AM	One thing I might suggest adding to the list is the natural attacks in a grapple question that creeps up on occasion: Can a creature/character with multiple natural attacks make a grapple check for each attack, or are they limited to the number of checks they can make according to their BAB? Answer: Yes, they can make a single grapple check per natural attack that is usable in a grapple. Source: Cat, Rules of the Game article
Mind Rogue 10-31-05, 11:52 AM	Not quite. It's actually they may make one attack per natural weapon, or they may make one grapple check with their unarmed strike. However, I suggest we make a thread and then get Shadow to sticky it. I also support making it be run by a public account. The first post can include the list of decisions, and then links to the posts in that thread where the decisions where made.
Cerebus13 10-31-05, 11:57 AM	Not quite. It's actually they may make one attack per natural weapon, or they may make one grapple check with their unarmed strike. However, I suggest we make a thread and then get Shadow to sticky it. I also support making it be run by a public account. The first post can include the list of decisions, and then links to the posts in that thread where the decisions where made.Can you get Caterane to confirm this officially? He has never posted publicly (that I've seen) one way or another on this...and I need something to link to. And if is true then WHEE another character idea down the drain. Edit: Has there been any other Elder opinion on this rule? All I have seen is a small handful of players discussing it, and then someone saying that Cat already was changing the rule. Are the Elder positions allowed to vote on rules changes or not? Seems like their positions are rather pointless if rules can be changed without them getting a say.
NiQil 10-31-05, 01:04 PM	Another one you may want to add is that Skate, when purchased in a tattoo, costs double like any other personal tattoo due to there not being any weight restriction when used on yourself. Source would be Cat....there is a link....but it's gonna get pruned so probably not worth finding it.
SoulLord 10-31-05, 01:05 PM	Recently rules have been changing rather frequently within the CoCo, and I find it hard to find all of these changes at quick glance when I'm putting together a character idea. I came up with the FAQ thread a while ago and I've been editting it in other places for my own use. If people find something like this useful we could start a seperate thread (under a communal account possibly) that could be kept updated. This is just a start obviously, but I'm sure people have many questions that have been answered that would fit on a list like this. ----- Question: Do you have to roll Move Silently while flying under a Fly spell? Answer: Yes Contributors: Zerone Question: Can you pull out an item during a grapple? Answer: No, it is not on the actions available during a grapple list. Contributors: LLMadCow Question: Can you use a Power Completion item during a grapple? Answer: Yes, only spell completion items are prohibited. Contributors: LLMadCow Question: Do manifester levels from multiple classes stack? Answer: Yes they do. However ML is still capped to the class using a particular power when it comes to calculating how many PPs can be spent for a single power. Contributors: LLMadCow Question: Do you get bonus power points from high ability scores more than once if you have multiple psionic classes with different primary ability scores? Answer: Yes for classes besides Psionic Fist and Warmind. Contributors: LLMadCow Question: Can you use the concealment granted by the Blur spell to Hide? Answer: No because there isn't anything being placed in between yourself and anyone that you would be hiding from. Contributors: Jindl Question: Does Protection from <alignment> work against the spell Hold Person? Answer: No. (was addressed in a WOTC released FAQ) Contributors: LLMadCow Question: Do penalties for multiclassing apply? Answer: Yes. They apply to both XP and GP however in order to prevent abuse. Contributors: Caterane Question: Do have to list customized feats & skills for purchased animals on the Blackmarket thread? Answer: No, these do not cost credits and thus do not have to be listed. Contributors: Caterane Question: Can Energy Missile be used to sunder attended objects/equipment on a character? Answer: No, it can only target unattended objects such as a dropped sword or a chair. Contributors: King Uther, Tellish of Ket Question: Can an animal be trained to use grapple attacks? Answer: Yes, it is considered a custom trick that is not listed within the Handle Animal skill description. Contributors: Caterane - here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7261110&postcount=135) Question: Can animals be taught new tricks that are not included on the Handle Animal list? Answer: Yes, but they require an Elder's or the Pitlords account's approval. Contributors: Caterane - here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7261110&postcount=135) Question: If one was to want to take a paladin and take him into the blackguard prestige class....could the alignment change and the outsider contact both be done in the same quest, or would there have to be two seperate quests done in order to accomplish both requirements? Answer: You could easily accomplish both in one quest. Contributors: Tellish of Ket - here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7269260&postcount=3059) Question: If a character chose an animal template for Lycanthropy that had wings....would the character gain wings (and equivalent flight speed) when in Hybrid form? Answer: Yes, you keep your wings. Contributors: Tellish of Ket - here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7269260&postcount=3059) Question: How do Armor Spikes work in grapples? Answer: You may either inflict normal damage with them using a grapple check (the "Damage Your Opponent" grapple option), or by using them as a light weapon and rolling an attack roll with a -4 penalty (the "Attack Your Opponent" grapple option). Contributors: D&D Game FAQ - here (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a), Cerebus, Tellish of Ket - here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7269260&postcount=3059), Community vote - here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7283289&postcount=3121) Question: May Bats & Toads (and other animals without a Natural attack) make touch attacks for the purposes of discharging touch spells? Answer: Yes. Contributors: Tellish of Ket (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7635120&postcount=758) & LLMadCow & other Elders (see posts before and slightly after ToK's for everyone's opinion) Things to add that i recall.. *level augmented for stones *INA & Monks *Autospot *listen dc due to walls *prot alignment potions vs creatures with SR
Mind Rogue 10-31-05, 01:36 PM	Can you get Caterane to confirm this officially? He has never posted publicly (that I've seen) one way or another on this...and I need something to link to. And if is true then WHEE another character idea down the drain. Edit: Has there been any other Elder opinion on this rule? All I have seen is a small handful of players discussing it, and then someone saying that Cat already was changing the rule. Are the Elder positions allowed to vote on rules changes or not? Seems like their positions are rather pointless if rules can be changed without them getting a say. Well, I can post what Cat PMed me on this issue last week. I'm warning you though, it is a nasty nested quote box. Hi Cat, Mind Rogue just reran Devolved (Enterik) vs Wolfcaller (Poe) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7572172&postcount=534). Devolved has 3 natural attacks and as I understand it, he gets three attempts to grapple for damage with those natural attacks as a full round action. Also, he seems to be insisting that the natural attacks be used as natural attacks within the grapple (at a -4 to hit penalty) and that he gets only one such attack (despite having three such weapons and the multiattack feat). From my point of view, based on the current version of the match, Devolved gets 8 fewer attacks than he should have had. He refuses to address my concerns because he remains "Unconvinced" despite examples of Mer-Man v. Virgo and Cerebus' grappling horse and RotG(p.4)being cited. So far, opinion on this issue does not support his position, yet he still asserts the need for an "Elder" ruling. At this point, what can I do but petition an elder or you? Thanks...Enterik This issue surely needs no Elder ruling as it couldn't be any clearer. Quote from the Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050308a): All about grappling, Part II, Paragraph "Attack an Opponent": You can't attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons. If you have multiple natural weapons, however, you can use all of them while grappling. In many cases, though, you're better off making an opposed grapple check to damage your opponent rather than making an attack with a natural weapon (see the section on damaging your opponent for details). So you can attack with all natural weapons but all suffer a -4 penalty on top of whatever penalty they already have. Well that clears up one issue, so even if I am wrong about the question below, Mind Rogue is still shorting Devolved numerous attack opportunities. Now, what about multiple natural weapons allowing multiple damage your opponent attempts within an established grapple? ...Enterik My quote only refers to "Attack an Opponent" not "Damage an Opponent". You do not get additional attacks for your natural weapons if you chose the "Damage an Opponent" option. You make grapple checks at your iterative BAB. This PM has been sent to Mind Rogue aswell. So, if I read this right, Devolved can either make three attacks at the -4 penalty (2 claws and a bite) or else he can make one opposed grapple check for unarmed strike damage? -Mind Rogue Yes, this is correct. The 3 Natural Attacks with -4 is vs the Armor Class, the other option (Damage opponent) is an opposed grapple check. Players should specify which option they want in a grapple. Default is "Damage Opponent" but if its clear that the Attack option is better (like Merman with his 5 attacks opposed to only 1 grapple check) then the pitlord should do the obvious.
Tellish_of_Ket 10-31-05, 01:43 PM	@ToK and Snommelp: So what's going on next week? Is Aquin facing Krunch alone or is it Aquin/Grik vs Krunch and Pale Rider? I'm fine with either set-up, but I try to plan things in advance. Just trying to plan for next week... Speaking of Aquin and Grik - where's Luni with my massacre? Well, the thing is this...If Krunch wins, i think he levels. That means it will be an ECL 7(krunch) and 6(pale) vs ECL 6(aquin) and 5(grik)? Unlike Aquin, Krunch isn't a bully and doesn't necessarily like slapping around little kiddies, but at the same time, he doesn't refuse a challenge from an overconfident upstart. So, if you still want the challenge, they are both up for it. :D -ToK
TelinArtho 10-31-05, 01:44 PM	Aquin would be more than happy to show Krunch the right way to fight - that's not really an issue for him. The question is whether the other two will come along and watch...
TelinArtho 10-31-05, 02:16 PM	To all who have been waiting for him to return, Foreman and his rider, Sir Valkin, are set to active for next week. You may now get in line for defeat. (I suppose this is mostly for NiQil since he still seems to bear a grudge about Foreman...)
Cerebus13 10-31-05, 02:22 PM	@Niqil I'll edit that question in. It's such a small non-threatening issue that I won't even bother digging for an official link concerning it. @SoulLord You mentioned 5 things: *level augmented for stones *INA & Monks *Autospot *listen dc due to walls *prot alignment potions vs creatures with SR The level augmentation for stones is a custom rule that is pretty well documented in the Rules thread, INA & Monks is covered in the latest D&D FAQ (which should be required reading), Prot spells vs SR is plainly explained in the SRD entry for the protection spells (which is also required reading). The other 2 entries are valid for not being very well explained in the rules thread, but the rest I'm not sure would require posting. We don't want to overcrowd this list with every possible question imaginable if they can be solved by simply reading another piece of freely available material. If it would help perhaps this FAQ should include a well documented list of materials that are required reading for people with rules questions. @Mind Rogue I've PM'd Cat to put a quick post somewhere (Tavern or whatever) so I can link to it. It's easier to settle arguments/discussions if we can simply refer back to his post.
Macbrea 10-31-05, 02:25 PM	I have a silly question. The entry for animal states: "Proficient with no armor unless trained for war." Can it be assumed any animal trained for war is proficent as a warrior in armors? I can find references to the fact riding dogs are trained for war and it can be assumed war horses are trained for war. But without stating it, a horse in full plate barding would find itself at -6 to attack rolls and to all skill checks that involve moving. This seems alittle silly. If someone can find a good reference to what trained for war means. If trained for war is an animal handling activity it may need to be anotated as an available trick.
NiQil 10-31-05, 02:37 PM	I have a silly question. The entry for animal states: "Proficient with no armor unless trained for war." Can it be assumed any animal trained for war is proficent as a warrior in armors? I can find references to the fact riding dogs are trained for war and it can be assumed war horses are trained for war. But without stating it, a horse in full plate barding would find itself at -6 to attack rolls and to all skill checks that involve moving. This seems alittle silly. If someone can find a good reference to what trained for war means. If trained for war is an animal handling activity it may need to be anotated as an available trick. We actually had an Elder poll a month or two ago to define this, since D&D doesn't. It was determined that the definition of trained for war in CoCo would be that they needed to have the Combat Riding package as defined under the Handle Animal Skill. Any animal trained for war is deemed to be proficient with barding. @ Cerebus: This is another topic to add to your list.
Cerebus13 10-31-05, 02:39 PM	We actually had an Elder poll a month or two ago to define this, since D&D doesn't. It was determined that the definition of trained for war in CoCo would be that they needed to have the Combat Riding package as defined under the Handle Animal Skill. Any animal trained for war is deemed to be proficient with barding. @ Cerebus: This is another topic to add to your list.Check out the skills section of the CoCo Rules thread here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6466576). Under the Handle Animal rule this is explained. I could add this to the list as well if it comes up a lot, but personally I think this should be placed under the Houserules section anyway since it is something we came up with to use here.
SoulLord 10-31-05, 02:43 PM	I don't think that being covered in the rules or faq is as relevant as to how often is the questions asked & debated. If the same question keeps coming up it would be worthwile to add it to the faq.
Snommelp 10-31-05, 02:44 PM	Aquin would be more than happy to show Krunch the right way to fight - that's not really an issue for him. The question is whether the other two will come along and watch... Watch? Sure. Participate? ...nah. Grik's going to bully some gladiators of his own level next week. Hey, since Sam hit level 5, does anyone in the EL 5 league want to take Sam and Grik in a team match? It could be fun!
NiQil 10-31-05, 02:45 PM	Check out the skills section of the CoCo Rules thread here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6466576). Under the Handle Animal rule this is explained. I could add this to the list as well if it comes up a lot, but personally I think this should be placed under the Houserules section anyway since it is something we came up with to use here. Heh...didn't realize it got put there. Cool beans. I was also thinking that maybe a good place for this FAQ would be on the front of the Council Thread....just a thought.
Macbrea 10-31-05, 02:52 PM	Thanks, obviously I am blind today. I thought I read all of that!
TelinArtho 10-31-05, 03:14 PM	Watch? Sure. Participate? ...nah. Grik's going to bully some gladiators of his own level next week. Hey, since Sam hit level 5, does anyone in the EL 5 league want to take Sam and Grik in a team match? It could be fun! In that case - I'm actually wondering if Krunch should fight Aquin in a challenge or just as a regular course of time - there's just not enough gladiators at that level - they're bound to meet up at some point. @Tellish - Aquin is not going to challenge Krunch this week (unless Krunch wishes to), so he can rest soundly knowing that he will die another day...
Macbrea 10-31-05, 03:25 PM	So, if I am understanding the allies rules correctly a gladiator isn't allowed to use a heavy warhorse in the arena until they are ECL 6?
Cerebus13 10-31-05, 03:26 PM	So, if I am understanding the allies rules correctly a gladiator isn't allowed to use a heavy warhorse in the arena until they are ECL 6?Correct.
Sunwolf 10-31-05, 03:29 PM	If we are running short of pitlords, Brilf is willing to fight 2 ECL 6 or 3 ECL5 or 4 ECL 4 gladiators next week.
Tellish_of_Ket 10-31-05, 03:30 PM	@Tellish - Aquin is not going to challenge Krunch this week (unless Krunch wishes to), so he can rest soundly knowing that he will die another day... If that's a polite way of chickening out, i understand ;). Besides, i'm not sure that krunch's fight will even be done this week. I haven't seen Luni on the boards since pairings day. -ToK
King Uther 10-31-05, 04:30 PM	Have any of you signed up for beta testing of D&D Online? I'm asking because it would be nice to gather up a party and go adventuring. I just signed up today, and I don't know if I'll get accepted or how long it takes to find out.
Sindorin 10-31-05, 04:40 PM	Oooh that sounds fun, where can that be found?
Tellish_of_Ket 10-31-05, 04:52 PM	Have any of you signed up for beta testing of D&D Online? I'm asking because it would be nice to gather up a party and go adventuring. I just signed up today, and I don't know if I'll get accepted or how long it takes to find out. Wow...thanks for telling me. I just checked out the site. Looks very snazzy. I signed up as well. Boy oh boy, my wife is gonna kill me. LOL -ToK
Cerebus13 10-31-05, 04:57 PM	Oooh that sounds fun, where can that be found?http://beta.turbine.com/signup/ I signed up a while ago but from my experience with Closed Beta signups for games like this you have to be either really lucky...or have a guaranteed "IN" with the game through an insider or contest prize. Most people get into the Open Beta phase of the game (if there is one) to try stuff out beforehand.
SoulLord 10-31-05, 04:58 PM	Have any of you signed up for beta testing of D&D Online? I'm asking because it would be nice to gather up a party and go adventuring. I just signed up today, and I don't know if I'll get accepted or how long it takes to find out. Sounds like fun throw or pm us a link.
Tellish_of_Ket 10-31-05, 05:59 PM	http://beta.turbine.com/signup/ I signed up a while ago but from my experience with Closed Beta signups for games like this you have to be either really lucky...or have a guaranteed "IN" with the game through an insider or contest prize. Most people get into the Open Beta phase of the game (if there is one) to try stuff out beforehand. Yeah, i played Guild Wars for almost a year before it was released. By the time it was released, things had changed so much, i really lost all interest in playing it. I also beta'd Ultima Online for a good stretch as well. Can't say i ever got bored. I played it for nearly 4 or 5 years straight. -ToK
TheMagister 10-31-05, 06:16 PM	Alright, I'm outta here for ~10 days. See ya'll later, and maybe sooner if I can hop on a friend's computer during my vacation. (waves!) TM
Macbrea 10-31-05, 07:47 PM	@all: There is a pitlording question for someone. If the son of tak vs dorak fight had ended with both combatants at stabilized at same point and then an hour later start bleeding out in same hour increment. Is a tie possible or is the one with the lower initiative the winner? And the real question, would the audience sit around for either fighter to actually die?
NiQil 10-31-05, 08:24 PM	@all: There is a pitlording question for someone. If the son of tak vs dorak fight had ended with both combatants at stabilized at same point and then an hour later start bleeding out in same hour increment. Is a tie possible or is the one with the lower initiative the winner? And the real question, would the audience sit around for either fighter to actually die? Depends on whether the arena made the alchohol free at that point LOL
Cerebus13 10-31-05, 08:26 PM	Question concerning mounts (exotic or otherwise): This section of the SRD under the Ride skill states:Control Mount in Battle As a move action, you can attempt to control a light horse, pony, heavy horse, or other mount not trained for combat riding while in battle. If you fail the Ride check, you can do nothing else in that round. You do not need to roll for warhorses or warponies. You are required to use a move action to control mounts not trained with the Combat Riding package if you enter into combat with them. When they say "other mount" does this apply to the wide range of exotic mounts we have available in the CoCo? I noticed this when looking at this weeks fight with Mer-man vs. Brilf because Mer-man's mount does not have the Combat Riding trick package, but he clearly was able to ride it into combat without having to use additional move actions to control it.
Tellish_of_Ket 10-31-05, 09:21 PM	@all: There is a pitlording question for someone. If the son of tak vs dorak fight had ended with both combatants at stabilized at same point and then an hour later start bleeding out in same hour increment. Is a tie possible or is the one with the lower initiative the winner? And the real question, would the audience sit around for either fighter to actually die? They continue to make stabilizatin checks until some eithr bleeds out or regains conciousness and CDG's his opponent. -ToK
Usurpator 11-01-05, 02:35 AM	Question concerning mounts (exotic or otherwise): My interpretation was that you need to make those checks because those creatures are 'frightened by combat'. Warhorses and warponies can serve readily as combat steeds. Light horses, ponies, and heavy horses, however, are frightened by combat. If you don’t dismount, you must make a DC 20 Ride check each round as a move action to control such a horse. If you succeed, you can perform a standard action after the move action. If you fail, the move action becomes a full round action and you can’t do anything else until your next turn. Since Hippogriffs are predatory, I assumed they are not 'frightened by combat'. I do think they really should get the Combat Riding package to reflect the training that allows them to accept a rider at all. A hippogriff requires training before it can bear a rider in combat. Training a hippogriff requires six weeks of work and a DC 25 Handle Animal check. Riding a hippogriff requires an exotic saddle. A hippogriff can fight while carrying a rider, but the rider cannot also attack unless he or she succeeds on a Ride check. The six weeks in the text above refers to combat riding IMO, not just any six weeks of training. So technically Battra wouldn't except Mer-man as a rider.
One_Winged_Angel 11-01-05, 02:38 AM	There is also the idea that these types of mounts are intellegent, which changes a lot.
Usurpator 11-01-05, 03:01 AM	There is also the idea that these types of mounts are intellegent, which changes a lot. Hippogriff Abilities: Str 18, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 8 Unfortunately, Hippogriffs are about as intelligent as horses.
One_Winged_Angel 11-01-05, 03:34 AM	Unfortunately, Hippogriffs are about as intelligent as horses. ...Right. Check the rules before I open my mouth. I thought they were intellegent like a pegasus or griffon. My mistake.
Pittbull 11-01-05, 07:04 AM	Have any of you signed up for beta testing of D&D Online? I'm asking because it would be nice to gather up a party and go adventuring. I just signed up today, and I don't know if I'll get accepted or how long it takes to find out. Signed up too, some months ago. Let's see what happens......
Tellish_of_Ket 11-01-05, 07:50 AM	Since DDO is in the Eberron world and i have absolutely ZERO clue about it, can anyone fill me in with the racial mumbo-jumbo of warforged? Like stat modifiers, abilities, LA+ etc...? thx. -ToK
Cerebus13 11-01-05, 08:10 AM	My interpretation was that you need to make those checks because those creatures are 'frightened by combat'. Since Hippogriffs are predatory, I assumed they are not 'frightened by combat'. I do think they really should get the Combat Riding package to reflect the training that allows them to accept a rider at all. The six weeks in the text above refers to combat riding IMO, not just any six weeks of training. So technically Battra wouldn't except Mer-man as a rider.Didn't see the bit of text that only included "heavy/light horses & ponies" as being scared by combat. However the annoying part about certain exotic mounts (like pegasus and hippogriff) is that the "six weeks of training required" to allow them to be ridden into combat does not specify what needs to be trained. We'll need some sort of ruling on this unless everyone wants to keep the current sort of interpretation...which is that you can merely train the mount for six weeks in various tricks (any apply) and then you can ride them. I'll add the mount controlling issue to the FAQ and we'll have to discuss more about the 6 week training thing. Cat has still not responding concerning animals grappling so I can't update anything to reflect this yet...
DMing 11-01-05, 08:27 AM	my charicter hasn't been in action in the arena. i checked the prison not there and no violation that i know of. so why is'nt he in action.
Tellish_of_Ket 11-01-05, 08:57 AM	my charicter hasn't been in action in the arena. i checked the prison not there and no violation that i know of. so why is'nt he in action. Did you send a PM to the Pitlords account with a link to your character saying you wanted to be added to the Roster? Nine times out of ten, that's generally what happened if a character isn't paired. -ToK
DMing 11-01-05, 09:01 AM	no i didn't kat also i don't know how to do links. i'm not a computer wiz.
Mal-2 11-01-05, 09:10 AM	my charicter hasn't been in action in the arena. i checked the prison not there and no violation that i know of. so why is'nt he in action. Hi DMing, It doesn't look like you set the title of your character to Ready for (Date), where (Date) is the wednesday you'd like him to start fighting. You're also supposed to send a PM to the PItlords account so that they know you're ready to fight. That being said, I think there are some problems with your character. For one thing, most of the places where you're supposed to put the details of how you came up with your numbers in silver, you have either left the default, or question marks. Your stats look too high, and the modifiers don't match up with your stats (for instance, a 16 Dex is not a +6 bonus, it's a +3). You're supposed to buy your stats with 36 points. You appear to have spent 59 points. You have no skills purchased. On feats: when you purchase the Exotic Weapon Feat, you must pick a single exotic weapon to be proficient in. Did you buy any expendable items? If so, which ones? What is your encumberance? I don't think your attacks are right either. How did you calculate the +14 to hit with the orc double axe? It looks to me like it should be 3 (BAB) + 3 (STR) = +6? And how does it get 2d8+2 damage?
Macbrea 11-01-05, 09:44 AM	I'll add the mount controlling issue to the FAQ and we'll have to discuss more about the 6 week training thing. Cat has still not responding concerning animals grappling so I can't update anything to reflect this yet... My guess looking at the tricks is that it ends up trained for Fighting (DC 20) and Riding (DC 20) which would be 2 three week training courses. Because, it is an exotic animal you can tell it to attack and you can ride it. You would need to make ride checks to control the mount in combat because it is prone to attack. Therefore, if you want to attack you are also just trying to maintain your position. If you "upgrade" your exotic mount with another 3 week training session you can train it to wear armor. As that would give it the Combat Riding (DC 20) animal training purpose. I would assume if someone is bored and trained a horse with the purposes of Fighting (DC 20) and Riding (DC 20) but didn't train it for Combat that the horse could be controled like a warhorse in combat but wouldn't be able to wear any armor. Most players don't see the purpose if their going to train the horse in the first place not to also spend that 3 weeks training "upgrading" it for combat.
Macbrea 11-01-05, 10:05 AM	Yah, DMing if you give us an idea what your working on we could suggest ideas to help. The Mercenary feature of someone premaking a bunch of characters isn't in yet but we might be willing to assist you in designing a workable character. The current one you have doesn't appear correct at all.
DMing 11-01-05, 11:10 AM	i'm trying to make a human paldin and a dwarf rogue/fighter.
Macbrea 11-01-05, 11:57 AM	Try this for the base paladin. You can not really start with ally best I can tell. Unless I am missing something in the descriptions of the rules that someone else can point out to me. Alexander Anderson Our misson is to punish any heretic who would dare deny the word of Iam. We'll crush your unholy body and salt the world with your dust. Gender: Male Race: Human, Humanoid (Human) Size: Medium, 7', 300lbs Alignment: Lawful Good Class(es): Paladin 3 (ECL 3) Experience: 3200/6000 STR 16 +3 (10 Points) DEX 12 +1 (4 Points) CON 14 +2 (6 Points) INT 12 +1 (4 Points) WIS 14 +2 (6 Points) CHA 14 +2 (6 Points) Hit Points: 27 [(10 + 5.5 + 5.5)+(6 Con)= 27; 3HD] AC: 20 [+1 Dex, +0 Size, +8 Armor, +1 Shield], Touch 11, Flat 19 [+8 Full Plate, +1 Buckler] AC Modifiers: [ +/-0 None ] Damage Reduction: None Spell Resistance: None Initiative: +1 [+1 Dex] BAB/Grap: +3/+6 [+3 BAB, +3 Str, +0 Size] Speed: Land 20’ Saves Fort +7 [+3 Paladin(3 lvl) + 2 Con + 2 Chr (Divine Grace)] Refx +4 [+1 Paladin(3 lvl) + 1 Dex + 2 Chr (Divine Grace)] Will +5 [+1 Paladin(3 lvl) + 2 Wis + 2 Chr (Divine Grace)] Attacks Masterwork Dwarven Waraxe (two handed) +7 melee, 1d10+4, Crit 20/x3 [+3 Str, +3 BAB, +0 Size, +1 Enh, -1 Buckler, +1 Focus] Masterwork Dwarven Waraxe (One handed) +8 melee, 1d10+3, Crit 20/x3 [+3 Str, +3 BAB, +0 Size, +1 Enh, +1 Focus] Short Sword (One handed) +6 melee, 1d6+3, Crit 19-20/x2 [+3 Str, +3 BAB, +0 Size] Crossbow, Light +4 ranged, 1d8, Crit 19-20/x2, Range 80' [+1 Dex, +3 BAB, +0 Size] Combat Modifiers: Attack & Damage Feats Weapon Focus (Dwarven Waraxe) (1st Level Human) Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Dwarven Waraxe) (1st Level) Power Attack (3rd Level) Class Abilities: Paladin Aura of Good (Ex): (Paladin's Aura of good is equal to paladin level) Detect Evil (Sp): (Can detect evil as spell) Smite Evil (Su) 1/day: (On a melee attack may declare smite does additional +5 damage if evil) Divine Grace (Su): (bonus equal to his Charisma bonus on all saving throws) Lay on Hands (Su): (Can Heal upto 6 hps per day or deal 6 damage to undead with touch) Aura of Courage (Su): (Immune to fear, each ally within 10ft gain +4 morale vs fear effects) Divine Health (Ex): (Immune to disease) Weapon Proficiency: All Simple Weapons Weapon Proficiency: All Martial Weapons Armor Proficiency: All Light Armors Armor Proficiency: All Medium Armors Armor Proficiency: All Heavy Armors Armor Proficiency: All Shields (except tower sheilds) Skills (12 Paladin) : -05 Balance [+1 Dex -6 ACP] [0 Ranks] +02 Bluff [+2 Cha] [0 Ranks] -03 Climb [+3 Str -6 ACP] [0 Ranks] +02 Concentration [+2 Con] [0 Ranks] +06 Diplomacy [4 Paladin +2 Cha] [4 Ranks] -05 Escape Artist [+1 Dex -6 ACP] [0 Ranks] +02 Handle Animal [+2 Cha] [0 Ranks] +04 Heal [2 Paladin +2 Wis ] [2 Ranks] -05 Hide [ +1 Dex -6 ACP] [0 Ranks] +02 Intimidate [+2 Cha ] [0 Ranks] -03 Jump [+3 Str -6 ACP] [0 Ranks] +03 Listen [2 Paladincc +2 Wis] [1 Ranks] -05 Move Silently [ +1 Dex -6 ACP] [0 Ranks] +01 Ride [+1 Dex] [0 Ranks] +01 Search [+1 Int] [0 Ranks] +02 Sense Motive [+2 Wis] [0 Ranks] +04 Spot [4 Paladincc +2 Wis] [2 Ranks] Languages Spoken: Common, Elven Speak Language: [2 Total Languages] Equipment Cleric's Vestments(Worn) Free Full Plate Armor [+8 AC, +1 Max Dex,-6 ACP][50 Lbs][1500 gp] Masterwork Buckler [+1 AC, +0 Max Dex,-0 ACP][5 Lbs][165 gp] Weapons Masterwork Dwarven Waraxe [8 Lbs][330 gp] Shortswords (2) [4 Lbs][20 gp] Crossbow, Light [4 Lbs][35 gp] Expendable Items Elixirs, Oils, Potions & Tattoos Bolt, Crossbow (40) [4 lb][4 gp] Potion of Cure Light Wounds [CL 1] (3) [0.3 lb][150 gp] Allies and Equipment None (Race & Class) None (Mount) Equipment @ Home Total Gold Earned: 3000 gp Total Gold Spent: 2204 gp Gold Remaining: 796 gp Miscellaneous Statistics Encumbrance: 0-76 (light), 77-133 (medium), 134-230 (heavy) Weight Carried: 75.3 lb Mount Weight Carried: 0 lb (Size) (Type) (Subtype) Hit Points: ?? [?? HD] AC: ?? [+1 Dex, +? Size, +? Armor, +? Shield, . +? Natural, +? Misc], Touch ??, Flat ?? [+? (Armor Type), +? (Shield Type), +? (Feat Name)][Conditional Modifier] Initiative: +? [? Dex, ? Feat] BAB/Grap: +?/+? [+? BAB, +3 Str, , +? Size] [Conditional Modifier] Speed: Land ??’, Other ??’ [Base ??, Class +??’, Feat +??’, Item +??’] Attack: Full Attack: Space/Reach: Special Attacks & Special Qualities: Abilities: STR ?? +? [Base, +? Item, +? Race, +? Template] DEX ?? +? [Base, +? Item, +? Race, +? Template] CON ?? +? [Base, +? Item, +? Race, +? Template] INT ?? +? [Base, +? Item, +? Race, +? Template] WIS ?? +? [Base, +? Item, +? Race, +? Template] CHA ?? +? [Base, +? Item, +? Race, +? Template] Saves: Fort +?? [? Class 1 + ? Class 2 + ? Con + ? Item + ? Misc] Ref +?? [? Class 1 + ? Class 2 + ? Dex + ? Item + ? Misc] Will +?? [? Class 1 + ? Class 2 + ? Wis + ? Item + ? Misc] Character Background Anderson travels the world to find the person that destroyed his village his freind wants to help him. Anderson is 7 feet tall and can move fast. they both want to put down evil for good and rebuild thier village. Buffs and Prefight Actions - (Power/Spell/Item) (Duration/Cost) Will send Tactics Fight 01 - (Win / Lose) vs (Opponent); (Pitlord) - +XX Exp, +XXgp Fight 02 - (Win / Lose) vs (Opponent); (Pitlord) - +XX Exp, +XXgp Fight 03 - (Win / Lose) vs (Opponent); (Pitlord) - +XX Exp, +XXgp (Quest Name) - Results - +XX Exp, +XXgp (Campaign Name) - Results - +XX Exp, +XXgp +3,200 [B]Starting Experience +0,000 Experience Won -0,000 Experience Spent +3,200 Total Experience [B]Sold Items (Misc. Item) [Net Loss ???gp] Elixirs, Oils, Potions & Tattoos Elixir of (Name) (Qty) [???gp each] Oil of (Name) [CL ?] (Qty) [???gp each] Potion of (Name) [CL ?] (Qty) [???gp each] Tattoo of (Name) [ML ?] (Qty) [???gp each]
Tellish_of_Ket 11-01-05, 12:26 PM	After a quick chat with Cat, we've decided to ban the spell REINCARNATION. So for all you venerable old farts out there, i'm afraid you will have to live with your disabilities. -ToK
SoulLord 11-01-05, 12:28 PM	After a quick chat with Cat, we've decided to ban the spell REINCARNATION. So for all you venerable old farts out there, i'm afraid you will have to live with your disabilities. -ToK How about polymoprh any object?
Snommelp 11-01-05, 12:38 PM	After a quick chat with Cat, we've decided to ban the spell REINCARNATION. So for all you venerable old farts out there, i'm afraid you will have to live with your disabilities. -ToK Wait, so you mean we're no longer allowed to make characters really old to get them increased mental stats, then kill them and reincarnate them as bugbears for beaucoup physical bonuses? That's it, I'm leaving! :P Good call, IMHO. The one level lost just doesn't balance out the potential for brokenness in this setting (again, IMHO).
Snommelp 11-01-05, 12:40 PM	How about polymoprh any object? PAO gives you the Intelligence score of the new form, and it's 4 levels higher than Reincarnate. I personally don't see as much potential for unbalanced-ness there, although I could be wrong.
NiQil 11-01-05, 12:42 PM	After a quick chat with Cat, we've decided to ban the spell REINCARNATION. So for all you venerable old farts out there, i'm afraid you will have to live with your disabilities. -ToK I fail to see the logic there....it really can't be abused because you can't cast it on yourself. It can only be cast on a dead creature. You can't go to an NPC caster in Gladius to cast it on you because...again...you'd have to be dead to receive it...and the Nimbus would just keep bringing you back before you can receive it's benefits. They only place I can see a problem is on quests and campaigns...if you were to have someone else cast it on a dead character...other than that...reasoning escapes me.
One_Winged_Angel 11-01-05, 12:52 PM	I fail to see the logic there....it really can't be abused because you can't cast it on yourself. It can only be cast on a dead creature. You can't go to an NPC caster in Gladius to cast it on you because...again...you'd have to be dead to receive it...and the Nimbus would just keep bringing you back before you can receive it's benefits. They only place I can see a problem is on quests and campaigns...if you were to have someone else cast it on a dead character...other than that...reasoning escapes me. I have to say that I agree. I don't really see anyone actually using the spell. Unless you quest to get something, kill it, then re-incarnate it. Even then, any LA or the like would be balanced out by the fact that we go by ECL -2. Also, the spell is utterly and completely random. Also the fact that the creature you just killed is not likely to be very friendly toward you... As for casting on yourself, well, you are more likely to end up as one of the base races than anything powerful. Heck, the only really cool things on there are the bugbear, troglodyte, and lizardfolk. When you factor in that you are just as likely to end up as a kobald as one of those races...
Tellish_of_Ket 11-01-05, 01:01 PM	Yes, you can pay to have it cast on yourself, and the Nimbus only affects the arena. So i walk up to a druid, with dagger in hand, pay him to cast reincarnate when i die, and stab myself. When you get a race (say bugbear) you don't get the LA attached to it. In fact if you were a human before dying, you'll still get your +1 skill pts per level etc...all you get is the +4/+2/+2, nothing else. And when i say ALL YOU GET, i say it tongue in cheek, because that's huge. Because you already just knocked off -6/-6/-6 in your physical stats, retained your +3/+3/+3 mental stats. So you are essentially +4/+2/+2/+3/+3/+3 for an ecl 3 character. Trust me, there's more to it than that though that should be sufficient. PoA is next on our list. It is currently being reviewed. -ToK
NiQil 11-01-05, 01:08 PM	Yes, you can pay to have it cast on yourself, and the Nimbus only affects the arena. So i walk up to a druid, with dagger in hand, pay him to cast reincarnate when i die, and stab myself. When you get a race (say bugbear) you don't get the LA attached to it. In fact if you were a human before dying, you'll still get your +1 skill pts per level etc...all you get is the +4/+2/+2, nothing else. And when i say ALL YOU GET, i say it tongue in cheek, because that's huge. Because you already just knocked off -6/-6/-6 in your physical stats, retained your +3/+3/+3 mental stats. So you are essentially +4/+2/+2/+3/+3/+3 for an ecl 3 character. Trust me, there's more to it than that though that should be sufficient. PoA is next on our list. It is currently being reviewed. -ToK Not quite true... History Update: Excerpt from the Book of the New Age, Chapter 2: ‘After Angosh’s Fall’. “…and after the Harvester became the undisputed champion of Gladius, he succeeded in removing huge parts of the Nimbus that was a thorn in his non-existing eyes for some long! He surely would have destroyed the link completely were it not for the combined effort of the Pitlords who managed to save a small portion of this mysterious field of life. Today, only the arena dome itself and about half the city is surrounded by the Nimbus, a fact that has changed life in Gladius drastically.” Emphasis mine. So place NPC casters in the area of the city affected by the Nimbus. Problem solved.
Myrridin 11-01-05, 01:19 PM	That assumes that the NPC caster won't leave that area then. If I walked up to a druid, in the Numbus, and offered them a bunch of gold to Reincarnate me, what's to stop them from walking with you out of the Nimbus?
Tellish_of_Ket 11-01-05, 01:23 PM	Why so stuck on Gladius? This is just a place gladitors come to fight and find adventure. Nothing stops them from acquiring spellcasting in lets say, Jindl Forest? Or anywhere else for that matter. -ToK
NiQil 11-01-05, 01:26 PM	That assumes that the NPC caster won't leave that area then. If I walked up to a druid, in the Numbus, and offered them a bunch of gold to Reincarnate me, what's to stop them from walking with you out of the Nimbus? Well, considering the NPC's aren't going to suddenly start acting differently than they have the whole time CoCo has been running, how about Gladius Law? If we are going to conjecture that we can find an NPC to do this stupid broken stuff in the first place, then we can also conjecture that their deity's won't allow the casting of said spell outside of the Nimbus. Really people...trying to break spells with NPC's here is just silly.
NiQil 11-01-05, 01:29 PM	Why so stuck on Gladius? This is just a place gladitors come to fight and find adventure. Nothing stops them from acquiring spellcasting in lets say, Jindl Forest? Or anywhere else for that matter. -ToK I just don't see the point in banning a spell that has yet to be abused. That doesn't sit well with me. The spell doesn't get used a whole lot here anyway....why ban something that hasn't been abused? Just seems silly to me. Let's cut off my arm because I *might at some point want to break it and get a cast just so I can hit people with it. That kind of silly.
Tellish_of_Ket 11-01-05, 01:40 PM	I just don't see the point in banning a spell that has yet to be abused. That doesn't sit well with me. The spell doesn't get used a whole lot here anyway....why ban something that hasn't been abused? Just seems silly to me. Let's cut off my arm because I *might at some point want to break it and get a cast just so I can hit people with it. That kind of silly. Then let me post my phrenic sorcerer with +40 to all his mental stats at ECL 3 and we'll see how fast people complain? The point is, is that abuses can be stopped before they begin. You don't have to abuse something before we nip it. This is one such case, that people can rest at ease that will not be abused and cause grief BEFORE we ban it. You may find it silly if you wish, that is entirely your perogative. -ToK
Cerebus13 11-01-05, 02:09 PM	Then let me post my phrenic sorcerer with +40 to all his mental stats at ECL 3 and we'll see how fast people complain? The point is, is that abuses can be stopped before they begin. You don't have to abuse something before we nip it. This is one such case, that people can rest at ease that will not be abused and cause grief BEFORE we ban it. You may find it silly if you wish, that is entirely your perogative. -ToKWell speaking of rules and whatnot...can you comment on the natural weapons used during a grapple argument? Up until a short time ago the CoCo was using the option presented in the Rules of the Game article on grappling that said something along the lines of: In order to clarify grappling for monsters (which is done poorly in the SRD), simply give them a Grapple option for each attack they have in their natural attack routine. (this being done because monsters do not normally benefit from multiple attacks due to a high BAB, and thus could never get more than one Grapple option). What is your opinion on this ToK? Caterane has ruled on this in a PM to somebody but hasn't had the time to post about it publicly.
Tellish_of_Ket 11-01-05, 02:59 PM	What is your opinion on this ToK? Caterane has ruled on this in a PM to somebody but hasn't had the time to post about it publicly. Ya, he's posted it a few times actually in the past publicly, he sides with the rules of the games, and i don't see any reason why i would contradict that (other than it's not what the PHB says, but hey). We use Rules of The Game and FAQ as sources of understanding and clarifying rules for CoCo...so i would just say go with it. -ToK
King Uther 11-01-05, 03:44 PM	We should probably ban Awakening then, too. Unless you want to see my druid/cleric/Sorc/Blackguard with 160+ CHA score.
Macbrea 11-01-05, 04:05 PM	Ok, explain the cheese to get that number. I am curious.
Macbrea 11-01-05, 04:24 PM	DMing, you will need to do two more items to that character. Change the title of your post to Ready November 2, 2005 and PM the Pitlord to tell them. You will also want to quote my post if your going to use the character in it. So that you get all the fancy formating. That one is done by the standard format that is being currently worked on. It color codes stuff so that the Pitlords can tell exactly what is important very fast. To quote the post hit the button at the bottom of the post and then copy all the formating to a seperate document. After you have that copied open your post in the character thread and drop him in. You will want to remove the [ sblock ] at the beginning of your character and the [ /sblock ] at the end of the character to be able to see the whole character in your post.
King Uther 11-01-05, 04:35 PM	Well, since we are so keen at using NPC casting(You could do it yourself): Wildshape into an animal, have Awaken cast upon you. You gain bonus HD, your INT score changes to 3d6, and you gain 1d3 charisma, and you turn into a magical beast. When you revert to your normal form, you would keep the mental stats, and when you wildshaped again you would be a normal animal, fully capable of being Awakened again. It's a load of crap, but it's also possible.
Snommelp 11-01-05, 04:42 PM	Well, since we are so keen at using NPC casting(You could do it yourself): Wildshape into an animal, have Awaken cast upon you. You gain bonus HD, your INT score changes to 3d6, and you gain 1d3 charisma, and you turn into a magical beast. When you revert to your normal form, you would keep the mental stats, and when you wildshaped again you would be a normal animal, fully capable of being Awakened again. It's a load of crap, but it's also possible. I'm at work and don't have my books with me, but one could argue that a Wild-Shaped druid technically isn't really an animal, so that trick wouldn't work. I could probably come up with other arguments, too, if I had my books. Another reason to ban Reincarnate: it drops you down a level. That takes you down to the prior league, but lets you keep all of your wealth (minus the cost of the spell). We could have characters with the wealth of EL 20 fighting in the EL 3 league. That's not right.
One_Winged_Angel 11-01-05, 05:05 PM	I'm at work and don't have my books with me, but one could argue that a Wild-Shaped druid technically isn't really an animal, so that trick wouldn't work. I could probably come up with other arguments, too, if I had my books. Another reason to ban Reincarnate: it drops you down a level. That takes you down to the prior league, but lets you keep all of your wealth (minus the cost of the spell). We could have characters with the wealth of EL 20 fighting in the EL 3 league. That's not right. Good argument. Also, I'd like to adress this along with answering why Awaken is still viable. Well, since we are so keen at using NPC casting(You could do it yourself): Wildshape into an animal, have Awaken cast upon you. You gain bonus HD, your INT score changes to 3d6, and you gain 1d3 charisma, and you turn into a magical beast. When you revert to your normal form, you would keep the mental stats, and when you wildshaped again you would be a normal animal, fully capable of being Awakened again. It's a load of crap, but it's also possible. A reason neither spell can work is that there is no rolling outside the arena. Both of these spells require you to. Awaken has never been a viable spell because you can't use it on your animal companion. With a casting time of 24 hours, you sure as heck can't do it in a fight unless your opponent cannot damage you in any way. Oh, clincher point: 24 hour casting period: Wild shape lasts 1 hour per druid level. Hmmm...we seem to have a shortage of level 25 druids...(since you would have to start casting round AFTER you wild shaped).
King Uther 11-01-05, 05:09 PM	That's why NPC spellcasting is useful.
Snommelp 11-01-05, 05:13 PM	That's why NPC spellcasting is useful. :confused: That still doesn't get around the fact that you would have to be an animal for 24 hours, which requires your druid to be level 24 minimum (assuming casting starts at the same exact instant that you become an animal). Or am I missing something?
Macbrea 11-01-05, 05:21 PM	Wild shape does count as a form of polymorph as per the spell. Now, if you could get awaken cast upon you (something you are unable to do yourself because you cannot cast spells as an animal). Now, having another druid cast it on you is also kind of silly. As the casting time for awaken is 24 hours. The length of time being an animal as a druid is your Druid levels in hours. So, to have it cast on you your now level 24 druid. Ok, Because your animal type is now Animal temporarily your suddenly have your Intelligence dropped to 3d6 and you gain +1d3 cha. Amazingling, according to the rules of the wildshape you will gain no HD at all. Because in wild shape it states: The new form’s Hit Dice can’t exceed the character’s druid level. Which means your not gaining anything as your HD are maxed. The druids type becomes magical beast (augmented animal). Until it chooses to end it's wild shape or the time is up. At that point, the rules to spell targetting take effect: Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies. With that effect the 24th level druid can have this cast on them as many times as they wish. It will only replace itself. Similar to if a wizard stood in one place and cast detect magic over and over. He can only benefit from the spell once. So, if you really feel that restricting "Awaken" spell makes sense to stop the 24th level druid from gaining +1d3 charisma and having to roll his intelligence as 3d6. Then restrict it. Otherwise, it isn't that bad.
King Uther 11-01-05, 05:42 PM	You could wildshape multiple times, before your wildshape time is up, making yourself an animal for 24 hours. Also, isn't the CHA bonus from the spell an unnamed bonus? If it is, it stacks.
Usurpator 11-01-05, 05:46 PM	Oh, clincher point: 24 hour casting period: Wild shape lasts 1 hour per druid level. . My Wizard in our regular campaign has used Awaken plenty. Limited Wish for Awaken, 1 action casting time, for a measly 300 XP instead of the regular 250. No problem. Edit: Limited Wish is generally very good to use for a lot of long casting time or XP cost spells. Permanency? Who needs it when you got Limited Wish.... You know that you can actually use Limited Wish to duplicate a Heal spell in a pinch?
Mind Rogue 11-01-05, 06:01 PM	You could wildshape multiple times, before your wildshape time is up, making yourself an animal for 24 hours. Also, isn't the CHA bonus from the spell an unnamed bonus? If it is, it stacks. Except that unnamed bonuses and penalties from the same source do not stack. For instance, consecrate gives a -1 penalty to all attack rolls made by undead, amongst other things. If two consecrate spells overlap, and an undead creature stands in the joint area, it only suffers a -1 penalty. I can't think of any spells right off hand though that give an unnamed bonus that it might be possible to recieve twice.
Usurpator 11-01-05, 06:28 PM	Except that unnamed bonuses and penalties from the same source do not stack. For instance, consecrate gives a -1 penalty to all attack rolls made by undead, amongst other things. If two consecrate spells overlap, and an undead creature stands in the joint area, it only suffers a -1 penalty. I can't think of any spells right off hand though that give an unnamed bonus that it might be possible to recieve twice. That's true, only it's not a bonus. You actually gain points. You don't get +2 on Charisma, you gain 1d3 points of it.
Macbrea 11-01-05, 06:43 PM	Is an easy fix either way. Have the elders simply rule Awaken instead gives a +1d3 awaken bonus to charisma.
Snommelp 11-01-05, 06:51 PM	Is it really that much of a problem? At level 24 a druid can pay someone else and spend a week not fighting in order to get +7d3 charisma. We don't even have a level 24 league; anything above 20 is non-core according to our definition. And any wish spell is moderated by the DM, right? Cat, are you planning on allowing a wish for a standard-action Awaken spell in order to make a druid with exponentially increasing charisma?
Cerebus13 11-01-05, 08:19 PM	Erm...why is Awaken even an issue for a CoCo gladiator? You awaken a tree or animal to humanlike sentience. To succeed, you must make a Will save (DC 10 + the animal’s current HD, or the HD the tree will have once awakened). Note the phrase, "humanlike sentience". Players already have humanlike sentience because we do not regularly allow PCs with a lower starting Int than 3, which is considered the lowest intelligence possible for the ability to comprehend humanoid speech such as Common. This means that a PC could not be the target of this spell because they already possess humanlike (or greater) sentience.
One_Winged_Angel 11-01-05, 08:52 PM	Is it really that much of a problem? At level 24 a druid can pay someone else and spend a week not fighting in order to get +7d3 charisma. We don't even have a level 24 league; anything above 20 is non-core according to our definition. And any wish spell is moderated by the DM, right? Cat, are you planning on allowing a wish for a standard-action Awaken spell in order to make a druid with exponentially increasing charisma? Cat hasn't said anything on this topic. He's being smart and staying out of it :P As for limited wish, it's not a great as everyone makes it out to be. Duplicating spells...whoop de doo. Is it really worth 300 xp a pop? Use Magical Device might be viable, but even then, we have 24 hour period. Yes, you could use Limited Wish to get +1d3 Charisma and a re-roll for intellegence. As mentioned before, you're HD wouldn't be effective And Mind Rogue is right. Unnamed bonuses from the same source do not stack unless specifically mentioned. Otherwise, you could false life 5 times for 5d10 temp. HP. And think of what would happen with vigor...*shudder.* I think I actually saw that as the rule in the Rules of the Game section with the section "Does it Stack?" Cerebus, you've stuck with this at least as long or longer than I have. Since when has an argument anything like that ever actually worked? Sure, it makes sense, but since when has anything here ever made sense. :)
Dracazar 11-02-05, 04:25 AM	I have this little question: I can buy a +1 longsword for 2.315 gp and spending 0 credits To upgrade the sword from +1 to +2 I need further 6.000 gp, right? I need to spend some credits too? TY
KerlanRayne 11-02-05, 05:38 AM	In regards to the Awaken debate. You don't choose the targets for a spell until casting is complete so you don't have to be wildshaped for 24 hours. Also, the spell is instantaneous so stacking rules don't apply, there is no magic left to overlap with. KerlanRayne
Macbrea 11-02-05, 06:58 AM	Since, awaken is a after effect of an instantantious transmutation spell which changes the druids subtype to magical beast(augmented animal) wouldn't that either become permanent or be cancelled along with the effects of the spell when the druid transmutes back to it's normal form? If not then any druid that transforms to an animal gets to keep the new stats of the animal even when it transforms back to it's normal form. I don't think you get to keep the +1d3 cha as a non-magical beast(augmented animal). You changed back in form.
Vathelokai 11-02-05, 07:32 AM	At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the polymorph spell... This spell functions like alter self... The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. ...Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form....Since your type does not change when you shapeshift, you cannot be awakened, unless you were an animal in the first place.
Vathelokai 11-02-05, 07:34 AM	I have this little question: I can buy a +1 longsword for 2.315 gp and spending 0 credits To upgrade the sword from +1 to +2 I need further 6.000 gp, right? I need to spend some credits too? TY That's a good point. Are the enhancements to weapons and armor governed by the same credit rules as other magic items?
Macbrea 11-02-05, 08:22 AM	You missed a line in polymorph. . The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.
SoulLord 11-02-05, 09:18 AM	That's a good point. Are the enhancements to weapons and armor governed by the same credit rules as other magic items? I think that it costs credits if the enhacement gives the item a bonus not found in the rulebooks. otherwise I don't see why it should cost credits.
Sunwolf 11-02-05, 09:19 AM	That's a good point. Are the enhancements to weapons and armor governed by the same credit rules as other magic items? You do not need credits to upgrade weapons and armors using available enchantments from the SRD. Example to upgrade from +1 to +2 sword -- pay the difference in price = 6000gp. To add holy (+2 bonus) to a +1 sword -- pay the difference in price = 16000gp. You are limited to a +5 enhancement bonus per weapon/armor and a total of +10 worth of enchantments (like bane, holy, keen etc) including the enhancement bonus. This won't apply for a while -- total costs of a magic item must be under 200,000 gp or epic pricing rules must be used.
Macbrea 11-02-05, 09:40 AM	I hadn't noticed but if Gorak builds peices of armor can he put them up for sale to other characters (not my own) to buy? And if so, what price is he allowed to set for the item? Example: Gorak produces a Mithril Chain shirt [1100 gp value (550 gp to craft)]. Is he allowed to put the Mithril chain shirt up for sale for 825 gp? This assuming that another player may want to buy the item from him. I assume you cannot buy items with other characters of yours from your own character because that would produce a conflict of interest. But it might generate interest from people enchanting and needing upgrades.
TelinArtho 11-02-05, 09:44 AM	Nope - you are not allowed to use the craft (armorsmith, weaponsmith, bowmaking) for profit. You are allowed to use the other craft skills and profession and sleight of hand as a free activity (take 10 + bonus times the ECL of your character) - but that's it.
Macbrea 11-02-05, 09:49 AM	So, your not allowed to sell items to other players? Or you can only sell items to other players at half their value? Or you can only sell items to other players at their actual value?
Snommelp 11-02-05, 09:59 AM	So, your not allowed to sell items to other players? Or you can only sell items to other players at half their value? Or you can only sell items to other players at their actual value? You're not allowed to sell to other players; mainly because you simply can't use armorsmithing, weaponsmithing, bowmaking, and certain other crafts for profit. There was also (I believe) some mention of it having the potential to unbalance things (as you have shown with your example of Gorak selling Mithral shirts under priced). Characters can only sell to NPCs, and only buy from NPCs.
Macbrea 11-02-05, 10:04 AM	Thanks, I was curious on that. It will actually effect the skills Gorak takes from now on out.
waywreth 11-02-05, 10:23 AM	So I was auditing my wizard's poor familiar considering he dies every fight, looking to see what I could do to help him out. I ran into something I wanted to make sure I was doing right (and that other casters might have forgotten as well). His natural BAB is +0, however he is supposed to use the CASTER's BAB (+2 in my gladiator's case), meaning he has +7 to hit instead of +5. Example of Owl: +7 = Tiny size (+2), Weapon Finese with Dex of 17 (+3), Caster's BAB (+2). Edit: Also note Familiars use their masters base saves.
Macbrea 11-02-05, 10:47 AM	Does the wizard have to make the DC 15 fortitude save or loose 300 xp each time their familiar is killed within the arena? I understand that all things get a true ressurection at the end of the fight but that doesn't seem to stop the special effect on the familiar. It just allows the familiar to get back up on his feet.
TelinArtho 11-02-05, 10:50 AM	Technically, they still lose the xp during the match, but it is regained after the match - so most of the time, it is just ignored. Technically though - I think they still lose the xp during the match.
Macbrea 11-02-05, 10:51 AM	Nevermind found the answer myself. There is no negative side effect.
SauroGrenom 11-02-05, 11:41 AM	Can you craft a crawling tattoo with the scribe tattoo feat or the craft universal item feat? BTW, if you opponent if flying and you have a very high jump skill, can you jump into your opponents square and grapple them? If you could, then would you both fall?
Huan 11-02-05, 11:50 AM	Can you craft a crawling tattoo with the scribe tattoo feat or the craft universal item feat? Craft Universal Item. (as per the item descriptor) BTW, if you opponent if flying and you have a very high jump skill, can you jump into your opponents square and grapple them? If you could, then would you both fall? If your jump truly was that amazing, yes, you can jump as part of a move action and attack/grapple. After then it gets fuzzy... I would rule that the one flying stays flying normally (if magical flight), and should the non-flying grappler lose a grapple or slide off, then he falls. If the flight is non-magical, I say both would fall.
Mind Rogue 11-02-05, 11:51 AM	Can you craft a crawling tattoo with the scribe tattoo feat or the craft universal item feat? BTW, if you opponent if flying and you have a very high jump skill, can you jump into your opponents square and grapple them? If you could, then would you both fall? Crawling tatoos are made with craft universal. I don't no about the flying case, but I would assume that if your foe flies with wings or the like, you both fall. If he flys from the fly or levitate power, the magic will keep you aloft, assuming he can support your weight. Otherwise you both fall.
Tellish_of_Ket 11-02-05, 11:24 PM	Just a quick question that i can't seem to find the answer. Overweight Characters: Lets just assume that a player with 1 str is carrying 50 lbs of gear...what happens? Can he even still walk? Attack? Or does he even have enough str left to take his/her gear off? -ToK
Book5 11-03-05, 12:23 AM	Just a quick question that i can't seem to find the answer. Overweight Characters: Lets just assume that a player with 1 str is carrying 50 lbs of gear...what happens? Can he even still walk? Attack? Or does he even have enough str left to take his/her gear off? -ToK Without looking.. :P str 1 has a listed carry light/heavy/overhead/etc and you suffer those as you suffer those normally. No "special rating 1" modifiers. If you are spontaniously beyond you mass maximume - id say escape artist .. or burst DC :snicker: to get out of a well secured backpack whose latches you cant unlatch and/or ya cant lift your gauntleted fists. Basically heavy gear/armor = circumstantial .. improvised.. "tangle foot bag"
SauroGrenom 11-03-05, 12:25 AM	I have just posted Raskos (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7659455&postcount=518). He is my first character using the new streamlining initative. Comments/critiqe are appreciated. And if you notice any violation, please let me know. I intend for him to be the "guildmaster" for the new PSI consortium. I tried to give him a bit of a mastermind feel, but the background is still in the works.
SauroGrenom 11-03-05, 12:31 AM	Just a quick question that i can't seem to find the answer. Overweight Characters: Lets just assume that a player with 1 str is carrying 50 lbs of gear...what happens? Can he even still walk? Attack? Or does he even have enough str left to take his/her gear off? -ToK He cannot walk or move at all. At str1, his max lifting capacity is not high enough to hold 50lbs over his head and stagger about, or even to drag 50lbs. I would allow the character to easily drop gear that he is not wearing. As to whether this character can take his armor off, that's an interesting question. In the Arena it is probably irrelevant because it takes a while to remove armor, and you would likely get slaughtered while your pathetic butt is trying to get the armor off. In another setting as a DM I would make it take longer than normal to get the armor off, but I don't think there is anything in the rules about that.
One_Winged_Angel 11-03-05, 01:16 AM	Here is a bit of an odd question: if you are an evil outsider, can you count yourself as an evil outsider you have made peaceful contact with for the prerequisite for a blackguard?
Vathelokai 11-03-05, 04:36 AM	So I was auditing my wizard's poor familiar considering he dies every fight, looking to see what I could do to help him out. I ran into something I wanted to make sure I was doing right (and that other casters might have forgotten as well). His natural BAB is +0, however he is supposed to use the CASTER's BAB (+2 in my gladiator's case), meaning he has +7 to hit instead of +5. Example of Owl: +7 = Tiny size (+2), Weapon Finese with Dex of 17 (+3), Caster's BAB (+2). Edit: Also note Familiars use their masters base saves. Actually, you can use the familiars boni or the masters; whichever is higher. So most familiars use their own reflex, but their masters will saves. At least, at low levels.
Caterane 11-03-05, 05:12 AM	Announcement: The requirements for both the Celestial Forces and the East Habari Trading Company have been slightly changed. The alignment part of the requirements has been changed from any good / any evil respectively, to any non-evil / any non-good respectively. Both guilds had too narrow entry requirements compared to others, like the TLT or the TAO where members can almost join automatically. Here's a <link> to the requirements. On a side note, the Celestial Forces accept applications. If you want to be part of the winner guild :D send a PM to me or the CEF Guildmaster (which is the same hehe).
Sindorin 11-03-05, 07:10 AM	Hmm... maybe when all my good character finish campaigning :rolleyes: .
Sindorin 11-03-05, 07:26 AM	First of all, please do NOT continue this discussion in the Council. Here's again how the Council works: I announce a topic that needs to be discussed. We all discuss this topic and as soon as a solution has been reached, I add it to the rules. This is not a thread where every question a player has goes, or where discussions lead to when the Tavern finds no answer. I work on that thread and want to keep it clean to the subject at hand which is "Guilds" for the time being. That said, I will post my comment on the bat/toad issue. It is clear that those creatures cannot attack. Yes, they have a BAB but they have no attack mode. An attack must be clearly specified in several ways, including the type of weapon used. For example Harvester Scythe+10. Neither the bat nor the toad have a weapon or an attack mode or how would you list it? Bat Body+5? Bat Droppings+2? Even charged with a touch spell, the attack mode is still missing. It cannot, technically even, deliver the spell because it has nothing with which it can deliver it. I have heard the argument that this mode is missing because the damage is too insignificant. Asides from this being a very bold assumption without any proof, it easily collapses by looking at examples with weak creatures like Ravens where the damage is listed as 1d2-5. If the designers had the intent of giving bats and toads the ability to attack they a) would have listed an attack mode b) would have listed a damage potential, 1d2-10 if you like. The BAB is there in case the wizard polymorphs the familiar. I hope that clears the issue. Btw, an Elder Poll is opened by me and it is a real Poll in a seperate thread. Unless I see sufficient proof that topples my arguments and creates a gray area, there won't be any need for such a poll. Please continue in the Tavern if you want to comment on that. I figure I will do Cat a favor and move the discussion to the tavern since he wants it out of the council now that he has weighed in. In doing so, I will weigh in myself. On its own, a bat or toad... or... whatever... cannot attack. On its own. In becoming the familiar to a wizard, sorcerer, or adept, the familiar who may not attack may now deliver touch spells because they now have that ability from somewhere. This is crystal clear. Why one would want to utilize any natural attacks that would do... maybe... one damage... in COMBAT is far beyond my scope of understanding the mild and defensive tactics that we have seen lately that are oh so fun to pitlord... The bat or the toad can touch things, it simply, like Cat says, cannot attack them. IMO these are two separate situations - when you attack you target the subject's full Armor Class, whereas when you want to touch something you target its Touch Armor Class. This is why those creatures have a base attack bonus, so they can touch another in melee. That being said... I don't care either way. Go ahead and try to chew on your enemy for one damage per round if you hit. It is really silly to get all crazy about bats and toads. That, and I don't think I recall what started the discussion.
Vathelokai 11-03-05, 08:53 AM	My thoughts on the bat/toad issue: Being a familiar bestows the ability to deliver touch spells. That would be a special power that supercedes its previous (non existant) attack. The BAB on the bat/toad is for when the creature is bestowed with an attack ability, and this (to my mind) fits the criteria. Secondly, the charged touch descriptions say that anything you touch, even accidentaly, can be hit by the charge. Also, a willing creature can be touched whenever they want. Although there is no rule stating it, common sense would dictate that any corporeal creature can touch something. In fact, the grapple rating for the bat/toad is listed. If we make the rule that bat/toad could never touch anything, then that would mean a grappling bat/toad would somehow be mirraculously held without being touched. I believe that a large part of the problem is semantic: the touch spell does not have to be delivered by the hand (or other natural weapon). You could deliver a charged touch with your foot, or your tounge. Nowhere that I can find does it say that a touch attack 'has' to be delivered with a natural weapon. It is my belief, that simply by being coporeal, you can touch things. If we make the rule that bat/toad cannot touch things, then I demand that bat/toad also be immune to all physical attacks, since it has the inability to touch physical objects.
Macbrea 11-03-05, 09:04 AM	The arguement that a bat does not have natural weapons is perfectly fine. They have small gripping hands in the same way humans do. Humans lack natural weapons also. You will notice a human has a 1d3 unarmed attack. If you look at the table for weapon sizing for an gauntlet in the hyperlinked srd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm). you will notice a 1d3 medium weapon goes 1d2 at small and 1 at tiny. The bat is a Diminutive creature and therefore cannot get enough damage out to do any damage at all. All the others have Natural weapons which start at 1d6 which scale down to 1d2 by diminutive. If you were to enlarge a bat it would do 1 damage and provoke and AoO everytime it tried to attack for not having the improved unarmed strike feat. This would hold absolutely true of a human if you could shrink it also down to diminutive.
Cerebus13 11-03-05, 09:09 AM	Just an update to the natural weapons during a grapple thing: Caterane responded saying that the only way they can be used in a fight is the same as Light Weapons, an Attack roll with a -4 penalty. However the provision that "You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons" does not apply to natural weapons, you can attack with all of them. I've asked him if he simply wants the CoCo to ignore the first few paragraphs in the Monsters and Grappling section of the Rules of the Game article on Grappling, because they change completely how he interprets natural weapons to work in a grapple and it would be best to let everyone know to skip that rules information. We'll see what he has to say about it.
Guildmaster (CEF) 11-03-05, 09:25 AM	I've finished the first draft for the CEF guild and it should serve as a guideline for the structure of other guilds. The important posts should come first, then the less important ones. However, this is not mandatory. Guilds can design their thread as they wish. Diversity is good. The CEF accepts applications. Send me a PM. The official Start date of the LivingGuild System is November 16! @Vath: I like the alter self list, and the useful links for wizards. Perhaps the other guilds can include something like that aswell. But it should go to the bottom of the thread.
Guildmaster (WAR) 11-03-05, 10:22 AM	@Vath: I like the alter self list, and the useful links for wizards. Perhaps the other guilds can include something like that aswell. But it should go to the bottom of the thread. I've been trying to get a list of little-known rulings together that would matter to members of my guild. So far I have one: mithral shirts weigh 10 pounds, not 12.5 pounds. The problem in compiling the less-known rules is, well, they're not as well known. Hopefully the list will expand soon, though. Happy warring.
Mind Rogue 11-03-05, 10:23 AM	I too was going to point out that the bat's natural weapons would have been reduced to size ineffective. The raven has damage 1d2-5 because it is big enough to actually hurt with its claws. However, slams are often a size smaller, so the bat's slam attack or unarmed strike has been reduced to damage 0 (ineffective). Now feasibly, a bat or toad could try and start a grapple, disarm, or trip, right (although they would have hefty size penalties)? In fact, IRL these animals tend to eat Fine vermin whole, so really they should probably have a bite or tongue attack respectfully that does 0 damage and they have the improved grab and swallow whole abilities so that if you ever fight any creatures of size Fine, they can try to swallow them. Of course, now they would definitely have a weapon, so they could definitely attack. It's just that the weapon is ineffective against most (albeit bigger) opponents. Also, you generally make a touch attack with an unarmed strike. All creatures have unarmed strikes; they just aren't usually written down. Since the bat and toad are creatures, they have unarmed strikes (although they have been reduced down to 0 damage). Ergo, bats and toads can deliver touch attacks.
Pittbull 11-03-05, 12:38 PM	@Cat: I read your comment in the council-thread, so I bring bring this point up once again: If you take the psionic counterpart to a familiar, the psi-crystal, none of them has an attack-score or type, but all of them are able to act as the toucher. Please don't answer with: The psionic-rules are broken (ToK ;) )!
One_Winged_Angel 11-03-05, 01:00 PM	I would like to point out that a raven having 1d2-5 damage is a fairly odd argument. Sure, it's weak, but it still does 1 point of lethal damage every time. A caster typically cannot make such a boast. Their typical natural attack is 1d3+/-X subdual that draws an attack of opportunity, unless someone gave all casters the monk ability to treat their unarmed strike as natural attacks for all spells and benifits (old INA debate...) without telling me, then casters are still considered to NOT HAVE A NATURAL ATTACK when dilvering touch attacks. I agree with Pittbull: if a crystal can diliver a touch attack, why not a bat? And psionics are not (completely ;) ) broken.
NiQil 11-03-05, 01:04 PM	By the RAW, Cat is correct in that bats and toads cannot make normal melee attacks. Psicrystals can't either, for the same reason (no attack line). But I feel that Cat is incorrect in saying that bats and toads cannot deliver touch spells as a familiar. This is a special ability granted the creature upon becoming a familiar (with a master of appropriate level, of course). And here is something I would like to point out, regarding creatures that become familiars: Familiar Ability Descriptions: All familiars have special abilities (or impart abilities to their masters) depending on the master’s combined level in classes that grant familiars, as shown on the table below. The abilities given on the table are cumulative. Natural Armor Adj.: The number noted here is an improvement to the familiar’s existing natural armor bonus. Int: The familiar’s Intelligence score. Alertness (Ex): While a familiar is within arm’s reach, the master gains the Alertness feat. Improved Evasion (Ex): When subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, a familiar takes no damage if it makes a successful saving throw and half damage even if the saving throw fails. Share Spells: At the master’s option, he may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) he casts on himself also affect his familiar. The familiar must be within 5 feet at the time of casting to receive the benefit. If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the familiar if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the familiar again even if it returns to the master before the duration expires. Additionally, the master may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his familiar (as a touch range spell) instead of on himself. A master and his familiar can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the familiar’s type (magical beast). Empathic Link (Su): The master has an empathic link with his familiar out to a distance of up to 1 mile. The master cannot see through the familiar’s eyes, but they can communicate empathically. Because of the limited nature of the link, only general emotional content can be communicated. Because of this empathic link, the master has the same connection to an item or place that his familiar does. Deliver Touch Spells (Su): If the master is 3rd level or higher, a familiar can deliver touch spells for him. If the master and the familiar are in contact at the time the master casts a touch spell, he can designate his familiar as the “toucher.” The familiar can then deliver the touch spell just as the master could. As usual, if the master casts another spell before the touch is delivered, the touch spell dissipates. Speak with Master (Ex): If the master is 5th level or higher, a familiar and the master can communicate verbally as if they were using a common language. Other creatures do not understand the communication without magical help. Speak with Animals of Its Kind (Ex): If the master is 7th level or higher, a familiar can communicate with animals of approximately the same kind as itself (including dire varieties): bats with bats, rats with rodents, cats with felines, hawks and owls and ravens with birds, lizards and snakes with reptiles, toads with amphibians, weasels with similar creatures (weasels, minks, polecats, ermines, skunks, wolverines, and badgers). Such communication is limited by the intelligence of the conversing creatures. Spell Resistance (Ex): If the master is 11th level or higher, a familiar gains spell resistance equal to the master’s level + 5. To affect the familiar with a spell, another spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the familiar’s spell resistance. Scry on Familiar (Sp): If the master is 13th level or higher, he may scry on his familiar (as if casting the scrying spell) once per day. Emphasis mine. First, the line bolded shows that all familiars receive all of the listed abilities, provided their masters are of sufficient level. I also re-emphasized the key word.....ALL. No exceptions. Any creature who becomes a familiar receives these abilities when their master is of appropriate level. Period. This is the RAW. Whether they can make normal melee attacks is irrelevant. As soon as they become a familar, and as soon as their master is of the correct level, they can deliver touch spells. You are wrong, Cat.
Caterane 11-03-05, 01:21 PM	The argument that their attack mode is decreased to inefficiency and thus not listed is still nothing more than a bold assumption. If that'd be the case, then why didn't they write "0 damage" instead of "---"? Why didn't they list an attack mode? Please note that "0" is different from "---"; a golem has Int --- and a Ghost has strength ---. It does not have Int or Str 0. And again: tell me what the attack mode is that you are going to list when the bat delivers the spell, and show me the reference to that mode else it's nothing more than an assumption.
SoulLord 11-03-05, 01:29 PM	I'll tackle this issue from the balance side. A bat has blindsense and would granting it the capability of making touch attacks make the bat better than all other familiars? if yes then clearly by the balance issue that should not be the case. Otherwise all other familiars would need to be adjusted to make them as good as the bat.
NiQil 11-03-05, 01:38 PM	The argument that their attack mode is decreased to inefficiency and thus not listed is still nothing more than a bold assumption. If that'd be the case, then why didn't they write "0 damage" instead of "---"? Why didn't they list an attack mode? Please note that "0" is different from "---"; a golem has Int --- and a Ghost has strength ---. It does not have Int or Str 0. And again: tell me what the attack mode is that you are going to list when the bat delivers the spell, and show me the reference to that mode else it's nothing more than an assumption. Quite the opposite, Cat....you are assuming that they cannot deliver touch spells because they cannot make melee attacks. One does not exclude the other. Otherwise, there would be no reason to list a bat or toad's BAB in their statblock. A mode of attack is not required to deliver a touch spell. Please show me a reference that says this. It's a TOUCH spell. Nowhere does it say that a mode of attack is *required to deliver a touch spell. But it *does say that ALL familiars can deliver touch spells. You are going against RAW here, Cat. The specific overrules the general. Bats and toads cannot make melee attacks. But bat and toad familiars can deliver touch spells. Otherwise, why would the designers say that familiars can? As you pointed out, if the designers intended for bats and toads to be able to attack, they would have listed attack lines in their statblocks. Same principle. If the designers intended for bats and toads to not be able to deliver touch spells, then why would they write that ALL familiars can deliver touch spells?
Caterane 11-03-05, 02:09 PM	Touch attacks are touch attacks because they hit vs the Touch AC. The attack itself is still executed with the normal attack mode. So a human would touch with his hands, a troll with his claws, and other creatures with their natural weapons. If they have no attack mode, they cannot attack the Touch AC ergo cannot make touch attacks, nor any similar attack option. PHB, p139 defines Attacks as "Your attack roll is 1d20 + your attack bonus with the weapon you are using". Please tell me which weapon the bat is using.
NiQil 11-03-05, 02:14 PM	Touch attacks are touch attacks because they hit vs the Touch AC. The attack itself is still executed with the normal attack mode. So a human would touch with his hands, a troll with his claws, and other creatures with their natural weapons. If they have no attack mode, they cannot attack the Touch AC ergo cannot make touch attacks, nor any similar attack option. PHB, p139 defines Attacks as "Your attack roll is 1d20 + your attack bonus with the weapon you are using". Please tell me which weapon the bat is using. By your logic, Cat....ranged touch attacks shouldn't exist. Because, by your logic, you still have to touch them with a normal mode of attack. Can you tell me what the normal mode of attack would be for a human to hit someone with their hands from far away? And again, you haven't addressed the key point. ALL familiars are given the special ability to deliver touch spells. Until something is presented that contradicts this statement, it is the governing rule. It is specific to all familiars, regardless of type. Edit: Also, by your logic, psicrystals should also not be able to deliver touch spells. Are you going to ban it for them as well?
Caterane 11-03-05, 02:27 PM	By your logic, Cat....ranged touch attacks shouldn't exist. Because, by your logic, you still have to touch them with a normal mode of attack. Can you tell me what the normal mode of attack would be for a human to hit someone with their hands from far away? - The quote I used refers to melee attacks, and has nothing to do with ranged attacks. What you said is nonsense, btw. And again, you haven't addressed the key point. ALL familiars are given the special ability to deliver touch spells. Until something is presented that contradicts this statement, it is the governing rule. It is specific to all familiars, regardless of type. - I am not convinced because of one word ("All") that may or may not supercede the very clear attack rules. Edit: Also, by your logic, psicrystals should also not be able to deliver touch spells. Are you going to ban it for them as well? - The psicrystal thing is a problem, I admit. I still think the designers just made a mistake; after all, they're also only human and D&D is a very complex system. Let's say we allow bats to be able to attack. How would you then list their attack? This is a problem that makes it in on itself impossible for the bat to make a touch attack because they have nothing with which they could hit the (touch) AC. No matter what other examples come up that contradict my argument (Psicrystals, the word "All") the fact that they have no attack just proves that these are mistakes on the designer's part.
NiQil 11-03-05, 02:40 PM	Let's say we allow bats to be able to attack. How would you then list their attack? This is a problem that makes it in on itself impossible for the bat to make a touch attack because they have nothing with which they could hit the (touch) AC. No matter what other examples come up that contradict my argument (Psicrystals, the word "All") the fact that they have no attack just proves that these are mistakes on the designer's part. Unfortunately, thinking the designers made a mistake does not change the fact that it is what it is. I personally think the designers made a mistake not giving bats and toads attack entries. But because they didn't, we have to play that way. As such, if you are going to ban bats and toads, you must ban psicrystals from touch attacks as well, as they also have no attack entries. We can make up the attack bonus for bats and toads just as easily as we can make it up for psicrystals. Everyone knows how to make up an attack bonus here (or should)....BAB + either Str or Dex (depending on feats) + any modifiers. Either we allow bats and toads and psicrystals to all deliver touch spells/powers as the rules are written, or we ban the whole lot of them from doing it. Can't have it both ways. Examples of specific things that contradict your argument have been brought...and those specific things overrule your general argument, as per D&D primary source rules. You are the only one that has chimed in on this subject who thinks that bats and toads should not be able to deliver touch spells. ToK has been arguing that way, but even he has said that he is using the arguments that were presented to him way back when when he was the victim of this ruling, that if it is brought to vote again he would vote to allow it. Are we *all wrong, and you are the only one that is correct?
Caterane 11-03-05, 02:44 PM	You aren't right just because you're in the majority. Many might not have thought deep enough. All your arguments are based on assumptions and interpretations that are build on very sandy ground, with the only valid point (psicrystals) being an example while I use the clearly defined rules for melee attacks. We would have to invent an attack mode for the bat and the toad, as well as the psicrystal then. What should it be? Bat - Bite? Toad - ??? Psicrystal - ??? Mouse - ??? Thrush - ??? Please tell me how you are going to houserule it, NiQil. Also list the damage potential please. EDIT: Another argument of yours collapses, namely that that they have no attack listed because of their size. DMG, p203 lists familiars for small masters and there, the diminuitive screech owl has an attack mode (talons) and a damage potential (1d2-3) as has the diminuitive hedgehog and diminuituve ferret familiar.
NiQil 11-03-05, 02:51 PM	We would have to invent an attack mode for the bat and the toad, as well as the psicrystal then. What should it be? Bat - Bite? Toad - ??? Psicrystal - ??? Please tell me how you are going to houserule it, NiQil. Also list the damage potential please. We are not inventing anything, Cat. We are defining the ability they have received to deliver touch spells, nothing more. If they don't have a touch spell to deliver, they can't attack. They use their BAB and their Str or Dex to determine the modifier to the roll to deliver the spell, just like any other creature. You are again saying that they need an attack mode to deliver a touch spell. RAW says they don't. They aren't making unarmed strikes, just touch attacks. So no damage potential is necessary beyond that of the spell they are carrying. We aren't talking about making toads and bats and psycrystals with the ability to deliver unarmed or natural attack damage in addition to the touch spell.......just the ability to deliver the touch spell itself, which the RAW grants them. Edit to your edit: No argument of mine (unless you are talking about everyone, when saying mine....I never said anything about size having anything to do with it).
Caterane 11-03-05, 02:55 PM	Sigh Again: Touch attacks are touch attacks because they hit a touch AC, not by themselves! Touch attacks as such don't exist without a touch AC. They are attacks that hit the touch AC. If there is nothing that can hit the touch AC because no attack mode is listed, it cannot attack. Again: I quoted the RAW on melee attacks above and it clearly speaks of weapons, natural or manufactured. No weapon, no attack. NiQil, I'm talking against a wall because I have to repeat myself all over again. I don't have time to convince you. Sorry, I have to work on.
Gonbow 11-03-05, 03:04 PM	Touch attacks are touch attacks because they hit vs the Touch AC. The attack itself is still executed with the normal attack mode. So a human would touch with his hands, a troll with his claws, and other creatures with their natural weapons. If they have no attack mode, they cannot attack the Touch AC ergo cannot make touch attacks, nor any similar attack option. PHB, p139 defines Attacks as "Your attack roll is 1d20 + your attack bonus with the weapon you are using". Please tell me which weapon the bat is using. Simple; The spell. Because offensive spells ARE WEAPONS. Which is why you threaten the areas around you while holding a charge, among various other examples. Again though; why even list BAB/Grapple if they cant make touch attacks? You need to be able to make a touch attack to hit someone to grapple someone, are you saying a toad cant grapple a cockroach/various fine insects? It would have to make a touch attack to do so! Gasp!
NiQil 11-03-05, 03:05 PM	Sigh Again: Touch attacks are touch attacks because they hit a touch AC, not by themselves! Touch attacks as such don't exist without a touch AC. They are attacks that hit the touch AC. If there is nothing that can hit the touch AC because no attack mode is listed, it cannot attack. Again: I quoted the RAW on melee attacks above and it clearly speaks of weapons, natural or manufactured. No weapon, no attack. NiQil, I'm talking against a wall because I have to repeat myself all over again. I don't have time to convince you just as I hadn't time to explain you the difference between Caster level and Spell level. Sorry, I have to work on. Cat, first and foremost, you are confusing melee attacks with touch attacks. Let me fix that. Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll. Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. However, the act of casting a spell does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack. Your opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally. Holding the Charge: If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge. Now, can you kindly show me where it says that a normal attack mode is required to deliver a touch attack? Touch attacks are not melee attacks, Cat. Myself and others have delivered quote upon quote upon quote that says that bats, toads and psicrystals can deliver touch attacks. As much as you feel like you are talking to a wall...the feeling is mutual. We are not *all wrong here, Cat. Tell me what sandy ground I am standing on here. ALL FAMILIARS are granted the ability to deliver touch spells. ALL PSICRYSTALS are granted the ability to deliver touch powers. How much more in black and white can it be than that? You are making extrapolations in rules where none are required. I find it extremely hard to believe that multiple designers in different books are all making the same mistake. Especially since one book was published well after the other. If it was a mistake, don't you think it would have been corrected in the second book, or errata'd by now? If you are going to ban them, ban them. Say so. But the RAW says they can. If you really feel otherwise, then houserule it away.
Caterane 11-03-05, 03:06 PM	Ok, let's summarize what we have. Option A: They are not able to deliver touch spells because they have no Attack Mode listed which is what the RAW says on melee attacks. Effect: Prevents Bats, Toads, Psicrystals, Thrushs, and Mice familiars cannot deliver touch spells. Option B: They are able to deliver touch spells because the single utterance "All familiars can deliver touch spells" overrules the normal rules on attacks. Effect: We would have to invent an attack mode for Bats, Toads, Psicrystals, Thrushs, and Mice familiars with which they deliver the touch spell. If Option B, then please go ahead and assign attack modes for these familiars: Bat - Bite? Toad - ??? Psicrystal - ??? Mouse - ??? Thrush - ???
kedi 11-03-05, 03:06 PM	Bleh. I haven't played D&D for a LONG time. I might join once again. Hi to everyone recognising me.
NiQil 11-03-05, 03:08 PM	Ok, let's summarize what we have. Option A: They are not able to deliver touch spells because they have no Attack Mode listed which is what the RAW says on melee attacks. Effect: Prevents Bats, Toads, Psicrystals, Thrushs, and Mice familiars cannot deliver touch spells. Option B: They are able to deliver touch spells because the single utterance "All familiars can deliver touch spells" overrules the normal rules on attacks. Effect: We would have to invent an attack mode for Bats, Toads, Psicrystals, Thrushs, and Mice familiars with which they deliver the touch spell. If Option B, then please go ahead and assign attack modes for these familiars: Bat - Bite? Toad - ??? Psicrystal - ??? Mouse - ??? Thrush - ??? As Gonbow said Option B Bat - Touch Spell (which is a weapon and threatens squares) Toad - Touch Spell (which is a weapon and threatens squares) Psicrystal - Touch Spell (which is a weapon and threatens squares) Mouse - Touch Spell (which is a weapon and threatens squares) Thrush - Touch Spell (which is a weapon and threatens squares) This now meets your own quote's rules, Cat. Touch spells are considered weapons, as Gonbow said, and as I quoted.
Mal-2 11-03-05, 03:09 PM	Again: Touch attacks are touch attacks because they hit a touch AC, not by themselves! Touch attacks as such don't exist without a touch AC. They are attacks that hit the touch AC. If there is nothing that can hit the touch AC because no attack mode is listed, it cannot attack. Er, are we all talking about the same thing here? I think the scenario in question is whether or not a familiar with an Attack entry of '--' can deliver a spell via touch attack, right? The spell is the weapon in question, not some non-existant natural attack that toads or bats or psicrystals get. And we know how to calculate to to-hit bonus on a touch attack (BAB + size + str + special). The spell-delivering touch attack isn't part of the Attacks entry in the Monster Manual because those creatures aren't familiars, they're just the base animals a familiar is created from.
One_Winged_Angel 11-03-05, 03:11 PM	I would like to point out that a raven having 1d2-5 damage is a fairly odd argument. Sure, it's weak, but it still does 1 point of lethal damage every time. A caster typically cannot make such a boast. Their typical natural attack is 1d3+/-X subdual that draws an attack of opportunity, unless someone gave all casters the monk ability to treat their unarmed strike as natural attacks for all spells and benifits (old INA debate...) without telling me, then casters are still considered to NOT HAVE A NATURAL ATTACK when dilvering touch attacks. This hasn't been adressed. Unless there is some kind of satisfacorty answer, the argument should extend to the normal casters. We are effectively saying that all touch spells would have to draw attacks of opp. when we use them or that casters simply cannot use them as they do not have a natural attack. EDIT: Kedi's back, kedi's back!!! Yay!!!!! Still "kiss me, kill me" I see.
Macbrea 11-03-05, 03:17 PM	EDIT: Another argument of yours collapses, namely that that they have no attack listed because of their size. DMG, p203 lists familiars for small masters and there, the diminuitive screech owl has an attack mode (talons) and a damage potential (1d2-3) as has the diminuitive hedgehog and diminuituve ferret familiar. Actually, if you were to cast permanent reduce the size of a weasel with a wish spell it stat block would look as follows: WEASEL (magically shrunk) Diminutive Animal Hit Dice: 1/2 d8 (2 hp) Initiative: +3 Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), climb 20 ft. Armor Class: 17 (+4 size, +3 Dex), touch 17, flat-footed 14 Base Attack/Grapple: +0/–12 Attack: Bite +7 melee (1d2–4) Full Attack: Bite +7 melee (1d2–4) Space/Reach: 1 ft./0 ft. Special Attacks: Attach Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent Saves: Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +1 Abilities: Str 1, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 5 Skills: Balance +11, Climb +9, Hide +12, Move Silently +9, Spot +3 Feats: Weapon Finesse Environment: Temperate hills Organization: Solitary Challenge Rating: 1/4 Advancement: — Level Adjustment: — This I am betting wouldn't put you too far off your ferrets stats. Except possibly move which appears to have been reduced.
Ravashack 11-03-05, 03:20 PM	Errr... Why does there have to be an attack mode? From part of NiQil's quote: Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll. All they have to do is successfully touch the subject. If you can't imagine how it is done, just imagine the familiars charging and body slamming themselves on the target for insignificant amounts of damage (because it would probably hurt them more than the target normally).
SauroGrenom 11-03-05, 03:20 PM	Cat, I respectfully disagree withh your opinion on the bats/toads issue. I think your opinion was well expressed over in the council, so I'll quote the relevant sections and address your points one at a time. That said, I will post my comment on the bat/toad issue. It is clear that those creatures cannot attack. Yes, they have a BAB but they have no attack mode. An attack must be clearly specified in several ways, including the type of weapon used. For example Harvester Scythe+10. Neither the bat nor the toad have a weapon or an attack mode or how would you list it? Bat Body+5? Bat Droppings+2? Even charged with a touch spell, the attack mode is still missing. It cannot, technically even, deliver the spell because it has nothing with which it can deliver it. I bolded the section that I think is the source of the argument. There appears to be subtly different ideas going around as to what qualifies as an attack. Cat appears to be of the opinion that inorder to perform an attack, you must have an attack mode or weapon. While this is reasonable, I cannot find any place in the SRD that supports this opinion. I can find that attack modes and weapons are necessary to cause damage. When your attack succeeds, you deal damage. The type of weapon used determines the amount of damage you deal. Effects that modify weapon damage apply to unarmed strikes and the natural physical attack forms of creatures. Damage reduces a target’s current hit points. If we look in the section on touch spells we see that: You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll. So clearly a toad can deliver touch spells to allies because no attack is necessary. This application is not in dispute to my understanding. Now if the toad is to deliver an attack to an opponent an attack role is necessary. Note that it does not require that the toad attack, simply success on an attack role is all that is necessary. Now if we go up and read about what an attack role is we see: An attack roll represents your attempt to strike your opponent on your turn in a round. When you make an attack roll, you roll a d20 and add your attack bonus. (Other modifiers may also apply to this roll.) If your result equals or beats the target’s Armor Class, you hit and deal damage...... Standard actions Attack: Making an attack is a standard action. From these sections it appears that to deliver a touch spell, all you need is a standard action and to role a d20. This touch hits if the d20+attack modifiers matches or exceeds the relevant AC of the target. If we read on throught the section on touch spells in combat, we see that there are special cases when a touch spell can be delivered along with a successfull unarmed strike or natural attack, but this is not the general case and is specifically mentioned as a special case. If you still wish to cling to the notion that an attack mode is necessary, I ask you what attack mode carries a human wizard's ranged touch attack? This is certianly not carried on a ranged weapon, nor is it carried on an unarmed attack. Can a toad deliver a ranged touch attack with the same unnamed/invisable/undocumented ranged natural attack mode that the human is using to deliver his ranged touch attack. If we give everything a critical read, it becomes reasonable to think that the spell is the weapon or mode of attack. The spell can be either a ranged weapon or a melee weapon. Because the spell is a weapon, attacks made with the spell are considered armed and do not provoke AoO's. I have heard the argument that this mode is missing because the damage is too insignificant. Asides from this being a very bold assumption without any proof, it easily collapses by looking at examples with weak creatures like Ravens where the damage is listed as 1d2-5. If the designers had the intent of giving bats and toads the ability to attack they a) would have listed an attack mode b) would have listed a damage potential, 1d2-10 if you like. The BAB is there in case the wizard polymorphs the familiar. This section is a reply to a specific agrument as to why there is no attack entry for the bats/toads. As such it is reasonable to a degree. I would like to point out that strength modifiers cannot reduce damage done below one point, so the raven would cause 1d2-5 (minimum of 1) damage on a sucessfull hit. These very weak creatures like Ravens do infact cause damage when they attack, and this system is unable to express attacks that always cause no damage. None the less, the argument that Cat attacks here is still a bold assumption without any proof. Minimum Damage: If penalties reduce the damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of damage. To summarize, I don't believe that an attack mode/weapon is necessary to perform a touch attack on an opponent only a standard action is necessary. Even if you disagree with that opinion it appears that the spell is considered to be a weapon for the purpose of attacks that deliver melee and ranged touch spells (thus you are armed and can make ranged touch attacks with it). If you disagree with both of these positions, I'll continue to try to shed more light on the issue by addressing your disagreements. ~SauroGrenom
kedi 11-03-05, 03:20 PM	EDIT: Kedi's back, kedi's back!!! Yay!!!!! Still "kiss me, kill me" I see.Well... Sorry, depite you recognise me, I don't remember you. :P You're using that as a MuP, maybe?
Caterane 11-03-05, 03:22 PM	Elder Poll (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=530124) is up. To be honest, this issue couldn't have less of an effect for this board so I really don't care what the decision will be. I admit, some of your arguments are valid, others ain't, and the same is true for mine. I blame it on the designers for being so unclear and creating rules that contradict each other. Let the Elders decide.
Sindorin 11-03-05, 03:22 PM	One_Winged_Angel = Battousai2005 Hi Kedi
kedi 11-03-05, 03:24 PM	Oh... I remember. *browses SRD for the first time in a long time*
NiQil 11-03-05, 03:31 PM	Elder Poll (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=530124) is up. To be honest, this issue couldn't have less of an effect for this board so I really don't care what the decision will be. I admit, some of your arguments are valid, others ain't, and the same is true for mine. I blame it on the designers for being so unclear and creating rules that contradict each other. Let the Elders decide. I would ask, Cat, that you remove the wording from option B that says new attack modes would need to be created, as most of us think this is not the case. That would be a subject for a completely seperate poll.
Macbrea 11-03-05, 03:33 PM	Also, Humans don't have a natural attack. They are given a Strike, Unarmed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#strikeUnarmed) which draws and attack of oppurtunity. That strike doesn't have to be with your fist it can be with any other part of your body. Monks and characters which have taken to Improved Unarmed feat are considered armed. So, to answer your question on what type of attack the bats/any other familiiar can make? They are allowed to make a Strike, Unarmed based off their size. Due to the fact that Diminutive creatures list the reduction in the weapon Strike, Unarmed would be - it is assumed they do not have enough size to deal any damage. If such a creature were to be enlarged it would suddenly move up to being able to make a Strike, Unarmed as a Tiny creature. That would amount to 1 point of damage. You will notice Strike, Unarmed is a weapon on the weapon tables. It is available to all creatures that have the ability to move. The weapon should be sized to the creature that is using it.
SauroGrenom 11-03-05, 03:41 PM	Elder Poll (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=530124) is up. To be honest, this issue couldn't have less of an effect for this board so I really don't care what the decision will be. I admit, some of your arguments are valid, others ain't, and the same is true for mine. I blame it on the designers for being so unclear and creating rules that contradict each other. Let the Elders decide. It would be simpler to make the poll about the following question: Can a touch spell be considered to be a weapon that all creatures are proficient with? This means that there will be no need to invent attack modes for psicrystals, bats.... They will simply have none unless they are delivering a touch attack.
Macbrea 11-03-05, 04:23 PM	Anyone happen to know why the potions of reduce person and enlarge person are 250 gp in the SRD? Those are both 1st level spells, minimum caster level would be 1. Making them 50gps. For 250gp they would be CL5.
TelinArtho 11-03-05, 04:30 PM	Because they are both CL5 potions.
Macbrea 11-03-05, 04:33 PM	Is a 3rd level wizard allowed to brew potion one at 1st level for the arena or does that require the expendature of credits?
TelinArtho 11-03-05, 04:34 PM	unfortunately - it would require credits.
Usurpator 11-03-05, 04:38 PM	Because they are both CL5 potions. It doesn't say anywhere that they are CL5 potions. And the SRD does say: The caster level for a standard potion is the minimum caster level needed to cast the spell (unless otherwise specified). A different price is in itself not sufficient to unequivocally say they are CL5. I think the potions are indeed CL5, and priced accordingly, because they did not update the potion list completely when switching to 3.5. In 3.0 the effect of enlarge/reduce person depended on the caster level, and maxed out at CL5, which gave a 50% size increase. Today, the effect is not CL dependent, they just forgot to update the list, resulting in an overpriced potion.
TelinArtho 11-03-05, 04:47 PM	This was argued upon a few weeks ago and yes it is a holdover from the 3.0 version. Regardless, the decision is that they are CL 5 because all potions follow the same pricing formula (CL*SL*50gp).
Macbrea 11-03-05, 04:58 PM	Cool, was just curious. Darn, no real reason that Gorak would need 5 minutes of enlarge for an average fight.
NiQil 11-03-05, 06:43 PM	Questions regarding spells and Permanancy... 1) If you were to have Greater Magic Fang cast on yourself and made permanent, would the effects scale with you as you progress, or is the effect solely based on the CL you pay for at the time of purchase? I believe it is the latter, but want to double check. 2) In the Rules thread, it says that Permanent spells can be dispelled by either dispelling the actual spell, or the Permancy spell that is holding it there. Does the spell go away at that point, or does the Nimbus bring the spell back for your next fight? The Rules thread says it brings back permanent symbol spells, but doesn't mention anything else about other types of spells.
TelinArtho 11-03-05, 06:50 PM	I don't know the answer to #2, but for #1 - the CL of the effect is set at the time of the casting. So a 12th level caster of GMF made permanent on a wolf's bite would make it a +3 weapon going forward. Nothing could change this (other than a new casting by a higher level caster - and even then it would overlap with the previous casting).
Snommelp 11-03-05, 09:02 PM	I'm pretty sure I already know the answer, but I figured I'd ask anyway... I recall a rule from the old CoCo that one player couldn't have two of his characters fight. I assume that the rule carried over to LG, but I can't find it in the rules... theoretically, mind, could I have one of my characters challenge another? Like I said, I'm pretty sure I know the answer...
DMing 11-03-05, 09:05 PM	can i buy things for my character without any permisson? becaues i whant him to be more mobile.
Luni 11-03-05, 09:08 PM	can i buy things for my character without any permisson? becaues i whant him to be more mobile. If you can find the item you want in the DMG or SRD, gor right ahead if you have the cash for it.
DMing 11-03-05, 09:15 PM	If you can find the item you want in the DMG or SRD, gor right ahead if you have the cash for it. the players handbook counts too right.
Snommelp 11-03-05, 09:18 PM	the players handbook counts too right. Of course. Just make sure that you don't edit your sheet until after your fight has been posted; that's not allowed.
Luni 11-03-05, 09:18 PM	the players handbook counts too right. Yes. Players handbook, Dungeon Masters Guide, Monster Manual and the SRD are the available sources.
Ribking 11-03-05, 10:17 PM	Can anyone point me to the procedure for having weapons enchanted to be +1? Is that even possible? Do I have to buy +1 weapon, or can I handcraft a MW weapon and then have it enchanted? And how long would it take? Thanks.
Luni 11-03-05, 10:30 PM	Can anyone point me to the procedure for having weapons enchanted to be +1? Is that even possible? Do I have to buy +1 weapon, or can I handcraft a MW weapon and then have it enchanted? And how long would it take? Thanks. Enchanting a weapon costs 2000 gp for a +1 enhancement. It can only be applied to a Masterwork item. eg. +1 Longsword: 2315 gp. There is no reason you couldn't craft the weapon yourself and get it enchanted from someone else. eg. Homeade Masterwork Longsword: 315 gp/2= 157.5gp +2000 enhancement = 2157.5 gp. Look in the Streamlining Discussions thread, to see how to properly anote the enchantment. Note: Cold Iron weapons are special. It costs +4000 gp to get a +1 Cold Iron weapon. eg. +1 Cold Iron Longsword: 4330 gp]
Ribking 11-03-05, 10:41 PM	Thanks, Luni.
Book5 11-03-05, 11:00 PM	Prophecy of Book5 Bats and Toads... can touch things. I mean they are corporeal.. they can move around.. and all that .. stuff. They can head-butt things.. they can overrun/bull rush things.. they cant deal any damage - unless they are "equiped" with a spell... but that can be done eh? It would be simpler to make the poll about the following question: Can a touch spell be considered to be a weapon that all creatures are proficient with? This means that there will be no need to invent attack modes for psicrystals, bats.... They will simply have none unless they are delivering a touch attack. Can I grapple a Bat? Can it grapple back? Can toads touch things? CMON!!!! "Can a Toad Touch?" ... dont make me use font size=7 ... Points of Note: - The grab attack and all related causal relationship are unlisted. No where is there a detailed decription of the grab touch. That is Skip, Monte, Tad's fault. - No one will argue that you cant grab a bat. Which will enter you enter a grappple with the bat.. and since there is a grapple mod listed (and a bab).. (not familiars use the caster's bab to deliver touch spells anyway) - a charged spell is another "undefined weapon" that can be weapon focused into.. are you are considered armed for having it. Thusly - Bats cannot make normal attacks. They can initiate a grapple (making a melee touch attack, then opposed grapple - no damage is dealt no matter what). And they (like everybody else in the monster manual ) can ADD a primary weapon to their list of valid attacks when equipeded with a weapon. A charged spell is a weapon. It allows you to attack without provoking an attack of opportunity whether you have imp unarmed or not. [srd="armed" unarmed strike] Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed. Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity) Now "Unarmed" isnt listed for any of the standard humanoids either. Neither is every weapon they could possibly be equipped with - The "Primary attack" is always the equipped weapon - regardless (sooo lizardfolk with two longswords gets a single primary attack whereas a lizardfolk without any weapons gets two primary attacks) . Thats in Skip's Running the Game stuff about monsters and multi-weapon fighting. In this case the Bat (with no primary attacks ) is "equiped" with a discharge spell - thereby giving them a primary attack by the rules as skip desribes them. So yes, while you may have meant it flipantly - Caterane.. I think the answer really is "bat body." Think about the statment being made here - "bats cant touch things" that is an inacurate statment conceptually. Simply, A bat and a toad can touch things. - cant hurt em.. cant "damage" - hence the lack of 1d2-34 whatever listed in the attack zones. But, there is adequate support for the reality .. the factual reality - within the rules (ala initiating a grapple - "bat body" - or charged spell - "equiped primary attack" ) to allow for what we all really know does happen. I have had a frog leap into me - and I have grappled with a few - hella escape artist on those little things! [/sblock]
Caterane 11-04-05, 03:34 AM	Questions regarding spells and Permanancy... 1) If you were to have Greater Magic Fang cast on yourself and made permanent, would the effects scale with you as you progress, or is the effect solely based on the CL you pay for at the time of purchase? I believe it is the latter, but want to double check. 2) In the Rules thread, it says that Permanent spells can be dispelled by either dispelling the actual spell, or the Permancy spell that is holding it there. Does the spell go away at that point, or does the Nimbus bring the spell back for your next fight? The Rules thread says it brings back permanent symbol spells, but doesn't mention anything else about other types of spells. 1) Doesn't scale. Any why should it. 2) It is gone for good if dispelled.
waywreth 11-04-05, 09:04 AM	Questions on leadership feat: In theory I could achieve level 6 and take the Leadership feat. If I do so, what tricks does the animal (which is what I would take) know? Is the max ECL that I can bring into the area still the ECL-4 (thus CR2 at 6th level)? Thanks,
Caterane 11-04-05, 11:34 AM	@all: Due to the recent late editing of one of our members, I thought that we should do something to establish the checking of the edits again. In the old coco, before the new board engine was up, you could see the editing date even in single posts. This has changed. Still, there's one option that would allow us to see the editing dates. Instead of the (POST=) tag we could use the (THREAD=) tag. It would link to a single post also, but the date would be visible. The reason we have used the post tag is that some claimed that it would be exceptionally faster than the other one. Here are two examples: POST TAG THREAD TAG Please tell me what you think about it. Cat EDIT: Hm, the thread tag doesn't work anymore. Does anyone know the link that showed the editing date?
TelinArtho 11-04-05, 11:39 AM	The thread tag link doesn't work because you are not linking a thread. TO do the thread correctly you need the thread number (of the first post essentially) and the post # within that thread. I'm all for this change on the Roster - but otherwise - I think it is unecessary on peoples' character sheets (for linked fights for instance). As to the performance implications - returning a single post is obviously much faster than returning 30 (or whatever the number of posts retrieved per page (set on user prefs)).
NiQil 11-04-05, 11:39 AM	@all: Due to the recent late editing of one of our members, I thought that we should do something to establish the checking of the edits again. In the old coco, before the new board engine was up, you could see the editing date even in single posts. This has changed. Still, there's one option that would allow us to see the editing dates. Instead of the (POST=) tag we could use the (THREAD=) tag. It would link to a single post also, but the date would be visible. The reason we have used the post tag is that some claimed that it would be exceptionally faster than the other one. Here are two examples: POST TAG THREAD TAG Please tell me what you think about it. Cat The thread tag link is broken....when I click it, it takes me to an error that says no thread has been specified (or something close to that).
SoulLord 11-04-05, 11:39 AM	I think the thread Link is broken.
Mind Rogue 11-04-05, 11:42 AM	Your POST tag goes to Ixenthor unbelievably quickly for me. With some threads that have lots of long posts, such as the Characters and Battles threads, this is very important, since it is much faster to load just one post than an entire page, as with the URL tag. However, your THREAD tag doesn't work. It says no thread specified and to contact the webmaster if it was a viable link. Methinks that the THREAD tag is supposed to link to an actual thread and not to a single post, so check to make sure you are using it right.
Caterane 11-04-05, 11:45 AM	Apparently it doesn't work anymore. Does anyone know the link that includes the editing date?
Guildmaster (EHTC) 11-04-05, 12:07 PM	Attention: The East Habari Trade Company (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=501159) is being remodeled. Most of the low-level members were killed in the fire(their owners left the CoCo). We are currently recruiting any non-good gladiators who would feel better in the largest criminal organization within Gladius. We do have our first 5 members set up, but they are from the previous incarnation. Please PM me if you are unable to commit to the guild: Va'ria Theladrais Griff Mythral Kraegin the Summoner Dalamar Ohmsford[in campaign] Anixx the Warbringer New membership(old members are allowed to edit), requires 5 ranks in 1 of the following: Bluff Sense Motive Appraise Those who join will be rewarded greatly, as they have been in the past.....
Caterane 11-04-05, 12:14 PM	The Tavern has been unstickied because the Wizo's decided that 3 stickies per board is max. With Telin and NiQil among us, it will be up top all the time anyway :D
NiQil 11-04-05, 12:20 PM	The Tavern has been unstickied because the Wizo's decided that 3 stickies per board is max. With Telin and NiQil among us, it will be up top all the time anyway :D If I could make a recommendation, Cat.... We already have a guild hall thread, that has links to the various threads of the guilds in it. I think this is a good idea, and I think we should expand it a little..especially with the Tavern being unstickied. In the Rules Thread, I think it would be a good idea to make a post that has links to all important threads, so that they are all easy to find and located in one place. That way, if a post doesn't see much posting, but is something that should be saved (like the Maps thread), people don't have to spend time hunting for it...they can just open the Rules thread and the link to that thread will be there. We can include the Tavern, the various Guild threads and Guild hall thread, the World thread, the Character thread, the Council thread....basically any important thread that is not already stickied. I think it would make things more convenient for people to find, so that they don't have to go back through old posts to track something down....they can just open the Rules thread and there is the link.
Caterane 11-04-05, 12:28 PM	Sounds like a good idea. How wants to earn credits? ;)
NiQil 11-04-05, 12:33 PM	Sounds like a good idea. How wants to earn credits? ;) Sure....iffn ya wanna PM me what you want, I'd be more than happy to work on it for ya.
Caterane 11-04-05, 12:58 PM	If I do that I can just aswell get the links myself.
TelinArtho 11-04-05, 01:00 PM	Apparently it doesn't work anymore. Does anyone know the link that includes the editing date? This one should work for Aquin (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=7382313#post7382313)
Caterane 11-04-05, 01:02 PM	Yes, but it loads the whole page
NiQil 11-04-05, 01:06 PM	If I do that I can just aswell get the links myself. Such a cynic you are LOL :P Anyway....sent you a PM with all of the thread links I could find...if you think of any I missed, let me know and I will hunt them down.
Guildmaster (WAR) 11-04-05, 01:06 PM	Yes, but it loads the whole page 'tis true, but I believe that is the only way now to list the edit time. At least it doesn't link you to the first post of the thread.
waywreth 11-04-05, 01:15 PM	This one should work for Aquin (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=7382313#post7382313) This works for me - I see the last edited date.
Macbrea 11-04-05, 01:57 PM	I have a question in relation to druid companions. May a druid start with a companion or do they need to immediately quest in order to get their first level ability?
NiQil 11-04-05, 02:01 PM	I have a question in relation to druid companions. May a druid start with a companion or do they need to immediately quest in order to get their first level ability? Any class that receives a cohort as a class feature may start with them as soon as the class grants them. For Druids, Wizards and Sorcerers, this is level 1...for Paladins, level 5, and for Rangers, level 4.
KerlanRayne 11-04-05, 05:48 PM	Apparently it doesn't work anymore. Does anyone know the link that includes the editing date?This is from a previous post of mine. - Link to Cyric Tor using the {THREAD} Tag. Cyric Tor This one is better for linking to characters than fights becuse it's the only one of the three that shows the "Last Edited" time tag. Maybe the roster should use this method? Cyric TorHow's That? KerlanRayne
SoulLord 11-04-05, 06:13 PM	lets try it [ THREAD=359951&postcount=300&page=10]Vandelar[/THREAD ] 3rd try Vandelar 3rd try
Mind Rogue 11-04-05, 07:37 PM	It works. It's not as fast as linking to a single post, it displays the entire page, and it doesn't 'anchor' to the individual post. However, it is a lot faster than I am accustomed to the Character's thread opening. EDIT: This seemed to have run fast, too, so probably not many people are taking up network time over here right now.
WarsawAtWork 11-04-05, 08:46 PM	Nope, try it this way: Vandelar 4th tryVandelar 4th try Warsaw
Tellish_of_Ket 11-04-05, 08:55 PM	Kerlan and Warsaw got it right. Now the only prob is, is who's gonna volunteer to redo the roster that way? -ToK
Sindorin 11-05-05, 01:18 AM	Heh the tavern lost its sticky.
One_Winged_Angel 11-05-05, 01:28 AM	Heh the tavern lost its sticky. Yah, I noticed that. Somewhat confusing. Maybe it got displaced by Wiz's announcement?
Caterane 11-05-05, 07:15 AM	As I said, 3 stickies is max now. The Tavern will stay on top anyway. Thanks to NiQil, I have added a "Link Section" to the first post of the Rules of Gladius thread so that you can quickly go to a thread that might have vanished to page 2+. NiQil +1°.
Macbrea 11-05-05, 09:20 AM	Hey, working on Mektos. Does this sound right? Masterwork Whistle[1 Lbs][50 gp][1/8 Lbs (Reduce Person)] Just trying to make sure I am doing his equipment right.
Tellish_of_Ket 11-05-05, 01:15 PM	@AegisShade: Dude, that is one kick-butt character. Hmm...for a new guy you sure got everything down pat pretty quickly. If i remember correctly we had a constructor a while back, and he did fairly well but had some flaws in the build. It seems like those flaws have been addressed in your creation. Will you be the next Archie? Going 10-0? It will be interesting to see how he does in the arena. Actually, you've inspired me to build a character i've been wanting to build in a very long time, and it hasn't been done as of yet in the CoCo...so imma gonna doit! -ToK
Vathelokai 11-05-05, 02:57 PM	So I just read the newest Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20051101a&dcmp=EMC-DNDWEEKLY20051105) article; carrying things #3. It says that extradimentional spaces of the same type can be placed inside of each other. So my question now is, can you put a bag of holding in a bag of holding, and have them both function norally; can a 3/4 full bag be put in a 3/4 full bag? Of course it would take longer to get to your stuff, but is it possible?
Tellish_of_Ket 11-05-05, 04:18 PM	So I just read the newest Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20051101a&dcmp=EMC-DNDWEEKLY20051105) article; carrying things #3. It says that extradimentional spaces of the same type can be placed inside of each other. So my question now is, can you put a bag of holding in a bag of holding, and have them both function norally; can a 3/4 full bag be put in a 3/4 full bag? Of course it would take longer to get to your stuff, but is it possible? One bag of holding can be placed safely inside another (of course, the first bag's weight counts against what the second bag can hold) So if you put that 3/4 full bag of holding into another bag of holding of the same size, it is still 3/4 full. That's how i read it anyhow. -ToK
LLMadCow 11-05-05, 04:30 PM	(of course, the first bag's weight counts against what the second bag can hold) The bag does not weigh the same as it's contents. The weight of the bag is determined by the type. So, regardless of how full the bag is, it still weighs the same. So, if someone had a WHOLE bunch of gold lying around, they could buy 26 Bags of Holding Type IV (Weight: 60 Pounds, Capacity: 1,500 Pounds). Fill 25 of the bags of holding to max capacity and then toss all of them into the left over bag of holding. The end result is that you are now carrying around 37,500 pounds of gear and the bag only weighs 60 pounds. Sounds like quite a deal at a mere 260,000 gp!
One_Winged_Angel 11-05-05, 04:35 PM	The bag does not weigh the same as it's contents. The weight of the bag is determined by the type. So, regardless of how full the bag is, it still weighs the same. So, if someone had a WHOLE bunch of gold lying around, they could buy 26 Bags of Holding Type IV (Weight: 60 Pounds, Capacity: 1,500 Pounds). Fill 25 of the bags of holding to max capacity and then toss all of them into the left over bag of holding. The end result is that you are now carrying around 37,500 pounds of gear and the bag only weighs 60 pounds. Sounds like quite a deal at a mere 260,000 gp! ... At 260k, how the heck could you afford 37500 pounds of anything but rocks?
LLMadCow 11-05-05, 04:38 PM	... At 260k, how the heck could you afford 37500 pounds of anything but rocks? Maybe you need 4,500 gallons of water for something?
Gonbow 11-05-05, 04:40 PM	The bag does not weigh the same as it's contents. The weight of the bag is determined by the type. So, regardless of how full the bag is, it still weighs the same. So, if someone had a WHOLE bunch of gold lying around, they could buy 26 Bags of Holding Type IV (Weight: 60 Pounds, Capacity: 1,500 Pounds). Fill 25 of the bags of holding to max capacity and then toss all of them into the left over bag of holding. The end result is that you are now carrying around 37,500 pounds of gear and the bag only weighs 60 pounds. Sounds like quite a deal at a mere 260,000 gp! I'll do you one better. Buy 25 of Type IV, fill 24 of them to capacity, put them in #25, buy one bag of Type I, and put #25 inside that one. A couple thousand less pounds of gear, but forty five pounds lighter, which is important, methinks.
Vathelokai 11-05-05, 04:42 PM	Just trying to confirm that you can put an almost full bag inside of an almost full bag. Since that seems to be the case, Saffron is buying a bag of holding to put inside of her haversack. Now she'll never need a house/cave!
One_Winged_Angel 11-05-05, 04:53 PM	Maybe you need 4,500 gallons of water for something? Hmmm... Hey, Cat, how much water would you need to flood the arena?
Book5 11-05-05, 05:16 PM	Just trying to confirm that you can put an almost full bag inside of an almost full bag. Since that seems to be the case, Saffron is buying a bag of holding to put inside of her haversack. Now she'll never need a house/cave! I thought you couldnt put interdimensional pockets inside other interdimensional pockets?
One_Winged_Angel 11-05-05, 05:23 PM	I thought you couldnt put interdimensional pockets inside other interdimensional pockets? Well, no one said you can't. In the case of portable holes and bags of holding...well...lets just say you wouldn't enjoy the results.
SauroGrenom 11-05-05, 07:09 PM	I'm working right now on my first fight, and I have a question that I'dd apprecite a bit of help with. I read somewhere that when moving on a diagonal, your first square counts as 5' of movement, and the second square counts as 10' of movement for a total of 15 feet. Is this correct?
Usurpator 11-05-05, 07:18 PM	I'm working right now on my first fight, and I have a question that I'dd apprecite a bit of help with. I read somewhere that when moving on a diagonal, your first square counts as 5' of movement, and the second square counts as 10' of movement for a total of 15 feet. Is this correct? Yes. Although I personally use the graphical map and measure exact distances.
Vathelokai 11-05-05, 11:04 PM	I've been looking around for loopholes for a while so that I can play an animal. So far I've only found the celestial/fiendish templates and the awaken spell. I need an elder to weigh in on this; could I play a character (say a monkey or a hawk) that had been awakened. Awaken adds 2 hd, so an awakened hawk would be ECL 3. NPC spellcasting of awaken would cost 1700 gp and 2 credits. The creature gains the ability to speak languages, and has an int score above 2. This seems viable to me. The only problem I see is that the int. and chr. are rolled randomly. This messes with the point buy system a bit. One could just ignore awakens 3d6 int. and use the 36 point buy system normaly. Or the character could be built using a 30 point buy then take the median value of the awaken roll rounded down, or possibly linking the rolls in the past expenditures (next to the NPC spell casting). Using the minimum values from awaken, then the point buy system would also be workable.
TelinArtho 11-05-05, 11:10 PM	@Huan and Cat regarding the Depths of the Relic rewards - check the post in the prison that I made about it. I'll link it here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7654934) for reference.
Book5 11-06-05, 12:14 AM	I've been looking around for loopholes for a while so that I can play an animal. Oh Hey! Way to Remind me! Pardon, but I havent been following the question - I just got back from speaking at the streamline commitee, and have another realer question... but I had this Idea a while back about, and stop me if you have heard this before.. [quote=Book5] but wait! You cant! AHAHA! :woot: Internet! As I was saying, An animal such as a familiar could take class levels were it to be ... relieved of its Wizard. :smirk: Now - these creatures could appeare in the arena with some confuscation of the cohort/credit system (that is familiars as cohorts with class levels, not former familiar gladiators). As I have just typed a few lines of text in this regard I feel pretty confidant that "core" would not be able to allow that particular "open" idea. On your table top though --> talk about an intelligence bonus buff. "I put high stat int so my natAC would be better, and spell resistance." core - I think would lean more toward "Familiar's revert to their natural state and gain your xp divided by :confused: :weep: .... but nonetheless you could go the other way. Now the question I had earlier. As a pitlord do I build up some sort of credit? No seriously now. Do I start pitlording ecl 3 and four then work up to 5-9 and then multi-fight? does it work that way? or .. is it like I coulda drawn two 8th level (3&4 player) group battles on my first tuesday? I know its random .. but are there heavy/whelter weight rankings? Now before I go and dig through all the guild stuff again. "it starts NEXT week?!" Structures different....huh? Oh, I get it saurogenome "balanced" = calculus. I guess attack bonus it kinda calculus. And all the other actions details....Heh, "I dont really know what I'm signing up for! but what the hell!" Now, off to the other tavern! Red Lion (TAO)! (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=500767&page=2)
Snommelp 11-06-05, 01:38 AM	Vath: you get your awakened hawk to EL 11, and we'll see how well he does against my troll. I'll have the credits to make him by then, I'm sure. That's only... 32 credits? Plenty of time to earn 32 credits. @ Book: I may be wrong, but experience says that pitlords start lower and work up. At least, that's how it was for me both times I started pitlording.
Book5 11-06-05, 02:37 AM	The only problem I see is that the int. and chr. are rolled randomly. This messes with the point buy system a bit. One could just ignore awakens 3d6 int. and use the 36 point buy system normaly. Or the character could be built using a 30 point buy then take the median value of the awaken roll rounded down, or possibly linking the rolls in the past expenditures (next to the NPC spell casting). Using the minimum values from awaken, then the point buy system would also be workable. I think that if you can get the OK on the hawk (probably should pay for the service at creation ) then I would say... roll the 3d6 and point buy the generated amount. That is to say "If that flies - you still have to point buy." Rolling the dice would be RP. And, "If that flies" I'm gonna do it too! Awakened Weasel! "Attach" beats "Grapple" anyday. Though an awakened medium sized creature like dog wouldnt be that bad. Cat... if you go with cat you just plain gotta go with boots of haste, hat of disguise, scarf of flight, and lawful bane rapier.... :shifty: Allusion (Pattern) ...?
Dracazar 11-06-05, 05:03 AM	Hi, excuse me some lame questions. I wish to buy a potion of shield, the item is not listed in the DMG, do I need credits to buy it? May I buy a tattoo of force screen, do I need credits to buy it? With a non-psionic character I could use tattoo only, right? TY
Macbrea 11-06-05, 08:12 AM	We will use simple geomotry here: (PI)xRadius^2 x feet = cubic feet of volume 3.1459 x 150ft^2 x 1 ft = 70,788.75 ft^3 Assuming colums rocks and such take up 10% of the arena for ease. 70,788.75 x .9 = ~63,704 ft^3 usable space per foot 1 gallon = 0.13339 cubic foot A decanter of endless water produces 30 gallons of water per round. Which is equal to 4 cubic foot of water per round. As a result it would take 63704/4 = 15,926 rounds or 44 hours 14 minutes 20 seconds to flood 1 foot deep of the arena with just one bottle. Since the bottle costs 9,000 gp/bottle, it is very unlikely someone is going to randomly flood the arena.
Caterane 11-06-05, 09:36 AM	Awaken: First of all, you may NOT add a template to a non ECL creature. No no no. There are so many abuses for that because anything templated solely based on CR alone is not going to be a balanced ally except for the few basic mounts perhaps and some other exceptions. If you awaken an animal, it becomes a character. Try handle animal on your dad, then you get the point. So those with normal relationship to their fathers can now see that it is not an animal companion anymore but requires something other than handle animal, and since it has no ECL, there's no way you can keep hold on the awakened animal. We can perhaps agree on something if your heart is set on it but if I smell an abuse, you can be sure that it will be gone quicker than you can say "I repent". And Vath ...Awaken does not work on magical beasts, like familiars are. EDIT: @OWA: I don't know.
Book5 11-06-05, 01:09 PM	If you awaken an animal, it becomes a character. Try handle animal on your dad, then you get the point. So those with normal relationship to their fathers can now see that it is not an animal companion anymore but requires something other than handle animal, and since it has no ECL, there's no way you can keep hold on the awakened animal. We can perhaps agree on something if your heart is set on it but if I smell an abuse, you can be sure that it will be gone quicker than you can say "I repent". So we can give that a try... ohhhh, Im gonna wait till I see Vath do it. As far as details -> A kobold's cr is like 1/2 isnt it? ...but it still has ECL1. Despite how innapropriate it might seem - I think a hawk or cat (or any unmodified nonmagical animal) would be ECL1. This would start them at a slight disadvantage but I would think calling it that way would prevent any abuse. Point of note: I think Vath wants to play an animal as his character - not have an awakened hawk as an animal companion. Right Vath?
One_Winged_Angel 11-06-05, 03:30 PM	EDIT: @OWA: I don't know. *Sigh* Too bad. I was hoping I might be able to do something inventive with a high ecl merfolk.
Vathelokai 11-06-05, 06:16 PM	Awaken: First of all, you may NOT add a template to a non ECL creature. No no no. There are so many abuses for that because anything templated solely based on CR alone is not going to be a balanced ally except for the few basic mounts perhaps and some other exceptions. If you awaken an animal, it becomes a character. Try handle animal on your dad, then you get the point. So those with normal relationship to their fathers can now see that it is not an animal companion anymore but requires something other than handle animal, and since it has no ECL, there's no way you can keep hold on the awakened animal. We can perhaps agree on something if your heart is set on it but if I smell an abuse, you can be sure that it will be gone quicker than you can say "I repent". And Vath ...Awaken does not work on magical beasts, like familiars are. Book5 reads me right; I'm considering playing a PC that is an animal, not having an ally that is awakened. The whole thing started when there was that debate about the stable of horses for all occasions. I started to wonder exactly how dangerous some of the horse breeds would be. I really wanted to make a phrenic light warhorse with speed of thought and psionic charge, but the phrenic template adds intellegence only to a creature that is already above 2 intelligence, making it unviable as a character. Only celestial/fiendish actually boost a creature to three from 2 (even half celestial dosn't do it). But, as you say, templating the non ECL is banned in COCO, so such a strategy is out. Which leaves me with an awakend warhorse PC. But rolling dice outside of the structured environs of the arena or quest is also banned in COCO. The concept I propose is to make an awakened light warhorse (ECL 5) to see how well an elite creature of that type would fare in the arena. If it's too 'out there' of an idea, then no worries. I understand the importance of balance in the COCO.
Guildmaster (WAR) 11-06-05, 06:45 PM	Attention: the Warfare Alliance is now open for RP. the following characters have been selected as the "founding" members: Level 3 Kracknol (SauroGrenom) Level 4 Ashhûr Demonslayer (Luni) Caspian (NiQil) The First Horesman (nightbanegod) Level 5 Sam (Snommelp) If any of these characters are considering early retirement, please tell me so that I can have five active founding members. Happy warring.
Book5 11-06-05, 06:53 PM	*Sigh* Too bad. I was hoping I might be able to do something inventive with a high ecl merfolk. If I ever get lucky enough to have a double water breathing fight - I will SO flood my arena. - That pitlord deal said "pitlords" have control over the terrain - "no flooding the arena if one of the gladiators are merfolk"... Would just seem apropriate if they were both aquatic.
Guildmaster (CEF) 11-06-05, 07:00 PM	The Celestial Forces are proud to announce that they are ready to begin. Goodness must prevail in Gladius, and prevail, it will! The first five heroes of light are Warriors of Light of the Celestial Forces: Azriel, Angel of Death (One_Winged_Angel) [ECL 5] Dameon Leonne (Huan) [ECL 5] Barthleby (Pittbull) [ECL 4] Maeril (Usurpator) [ECL 4] Sir Valkin (TelinArtho) [ECL 3] The reason for the choice was that all other applicants are either too high in level or on campaigns. The CEF will do everything to get them in as soon as possible. The Guild is now open for roleplaying.
Snommelp 11-06-05, 07:02 PM	I just realized: I'm going to get double notification when there's a new post in the WAR thread. That could get annoying fast...
Mal-2 11-06-05, 07:10 PM	Sometime in the next two levels, Donak is going to need to quest for instruction by another War Mind, so that he can get into the Prestige Class at 6th. Does this need to be a full (3 week) quest? Can it be done in a mini-quest? Either way, how do I set that up? Thanks
Caterane 11-06-05, 07:21 PM	I just realized: I'm going to get double notification when there's a new post in the WAR thread. That could get annoying fast... My Account -> Edit Options -> Get Email notification: Never. and -> Subscribe to thread: Never. If you still get mails, delete the threads from your subscribed list manually. @Mal2: Miniquest is enough although a quest is cooler. If you want to go on a quest, you need to pay 3°, find a Questlord (enough available) with whom you discuss your quest, then write it into the headline of your sheet. A Miniquest just needs to be written into the headline, incl. the purpose.
Snommelp 11-06-05, 07:23 PM	My Account -> Edit Options -> Get Email notification: Never. and -> Subscribe to thread: Never. If you still get mails, delete the threads from your subscribed list manually. Oh, I know. That's how you had it set when I took the position over, and I changed it. I just sometimes like to complain about easily fixable things; it makes me feel good when I do fix them.
Oldmangray 11-06-05, 07:39 PM	okay people thanks for the reply's to my rant just needed to vent. now a completely noob question here i thought psi tattos were a single use item, in that you tap them once and there effect happens then there spent. am i wrong?
Iced 11-06-05, 07:51 PM	okay people thanks for the reply's to my rant just needed to vent. now a completely noob question here i thought psi tattos were a single use item, in that you tap them once and there effect happens then there spent. am i wrong? psionic tatoos are like potions, one use only.
Macbrea 11-06-05, 08:59 PM	Well, I have almost finished Mektos (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7671821&postcount=519) But, I have a couple minor questions at this point. Are we allowed to get an animal companion for a druid with an Elite profile? Possibly with the blackmarket? And secondly, does anyone happen to see anything drasticly out of wack with him so far?
Snommelp 11-06-05, 09:51 PM	okay people thanks for the reply's to my rant just needed to vent. now a completely noob question here i thought psi tattos were a single use item, in that you tap them once and there effect happens then there spent. am i wrong? They are. Did I forget to put that in the used items? If I did, I'll go fix it ASAP.
TelinArtho 11-06-05, 09:59 PM	Well, I have almost finished Mektos (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7671821&postcount=519) But, I have a couple minor questions at this point. Are we allowed to get an animal companion for a druid with an Elite profile? Possibly with the blackmarket? And secondly, does anyone happen to see anything drasticly out of wack with him so far? Class feature allies (Familiars, animal companions, paladin's mount) are not eligible for elite profile or advancing (at the start - they advance normally according to the rules of the particular companion type)
Macbrea 11-06-05, 10:00 PM	Cool, then I guess he will just have to run with 5 hps til I reach 4th. Oh, well. At least he can have a shield spell from me to help him.
TelinArtho 11-06-05, 10:23 PM	Hi, excuse me some lame questions. I wish to buy a potion of shield, the item is not listed in the DMG, do I need credits to buy it? May I buy a tattoo of force screen, do I need credits to buy it? With a non-psionic character I could use tattoo only, right? TY A potion of shield is not listed in the DMG for a basic reason - personal range spells are not able to be made into potions. If it was a viable potion to turn into a spell however, you could make it with credits. A tattoo of Force Screen (ML1) is an option however, but since it is a personal range power, it costs double the listed cost. So each tattoo is available at 100gp. If you want one above ML1 - that would cost credits. And yes - any and all characters (that I know of any way) can use tattoos - as long as they are able to "tap" it.
Snommelp 11-06-05, 10:37 PM	Quick Qs: does a duergar need free hands to use his Invisibility power? And do you need a free hand to activate a powerstone?
SauroGrenom 11-06-05, 10:38 PM	Here's a question with regard to multiclassing: When you add up the BAB for a character with multiple classes, do you keep track of fractional BAB progression. For example you are a 3rd level wizard and 2nd level cleric. If you keep track of the fractional bab, then you end up with (0.5)x3+(0.75)x2= +3BAB. If you don't keep track of such things, then you end with +2bab. So which is it?
Snommelp 11-06-05, 10:39 PM	Here's a question with regard to multiclassing: When you add up the BAB for a character with multiple classes, do you keep track of fractional BAB progression. For example you are a 3rd level wizard and 2nd level cleric. If you keep track of the fractional bab, then you end up with (0.5)x3+(0.75)x2= +3BAB. If you don't keep track of such things, then you end with +2bab. So which is it? You do not keep track of the fractions.
TelinArtho 11-06-05, 10:42 PM	Quick Qs: does a duergar need free hands to use his Invisibility power? And do you need a free hand to activate a powerstone? Spell-like abilities need the same components as a spell of the same name (not sure about the material part - but that usually isn't an issue). You need to hold the powerstone - but no - you do not need another free hand.
SauroGrenom 11-06-05, 10:42 PM	Quick Qs: does a duergar need free hands to use his Invisibility power? And do you need a free hand to activate a powerstone? No free hands needed for the invisibility power, or any spell like or psi like abilities. Powerstones must be held in your hand inorder to use them. Powers do not have somatic components, so you do not need to hold one in your hand and have a second free hand. To use a stone you only need to have one hand available to hold the stone and have a standard action.
SauroGrenom 11-06-05, 10:44 PM	Spell-Like: Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, material, focus, or XP components). They go away in an antimagic field and are subject to spell resistance if the spell the ability resembles or duplicates would be subject to spell resistance. I hope this answers your question.
Snommelp 11-06-05, 10:46 PM	No free hands needed for the invisibility power, or any spell like or psi like abilities. Powerstones must be held in your hand inorder to use them. Powers do not have somatic components, so you do not need to hold one in your hand and have a second free hand. To use a stone you only need to have one hand available to hold the stone and have a standard action. Thanks, Sauro. And thanks to Telin, as well. Now that that information is back in my brain, it's time to run Vakkor vs. Shazzelin!
TelinArtho 11-06-05, 10:53 PM	I hope this answers your question. I just finished looking it up and I concur - having found the same quote.
Snommelp 11-06-05, 11:11 PM	...aaaaand a new question! Do powerstones have a psionic display when you activate them, the same way that powers do?
SauroGrenom 11-06-05, 11:18 PM	...aaaaand a new question! Do powerstones have a psionic display when you activate them, the same way that powers do? Determine Effect: A power successfully manifested from a power stone works exactly as if manifested normally. Assume the power stone’s manifester level is always the minimum level required to manifest the power for the character who imprinted the stone, unless the creator specifically desires otherwise. A power stone’s glow fades when its stored power is flushed. I would say that yes it does.
One_Winged_Angel 11-06-05, 11:19 PM	I keep getting told by pitlords that augmented stones cost more. How much more? I'm never sure anymore.
SauroGrenom 11-06-05, 11:33 PM	I keep getting told by pitlords that augmented stones cost more. How much more? I'm never sure anymore. The equation is 25xpowerlevelxmanifesterlevel=cost. Now if you agument a power by two additional powerpoints, it is increased in powerlevel as well. So vigor ML1= 25gp, but VigorML5=25xpowerlevel(3)xManifesterleve l(5)=375gp.
SauroGrenom 11-06-05, 11:34 PM	How do you upload images for a post? I have pitlorded my first fight, and I made a little map, but I cannot figure out how to get the image on the post.
Guildmaster (PSI) 11-06-05, 11:42 PM	We at the PSI Consortium are still taking applicants. The guild system opens on the 16th and We would very much like to have a complete compliment of starting members. Please consider submitting characters to the guild (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=517706).
Snommelp 11-07-05, 12:07 AM	How do you upload images for a post? I have pitlorded my first fight, and I made a little map, but I cannot figure out how to get the image on the post. If you have a website, just put the link to the picture in [IMG] tags. If you don't, I can't help you.
MysticMonk2005 11-07-05, 12:40 AM	Question about converting to LGE from Classic CoCo. If a characters last fight before being frozen was a loss, does he get Exp/GP for it? It would make sense as items were probly used.
Guildmaster (TLT) 11-07-05, 01:16 AM	The Living Tree is now open for business. If you are interested in joining, the first 3 people to post can join without a quest.
Book5 11-07-05, 02:20 AM	How do you upload images for a post? I have pitlorded my first fight, and I made a little map, but I cannot figure out how to get the image on the post. [img] "url" [/i..]
Book5 11-07-05, 02:22 AM	No free hands needed for the invisibility power, or any spell like or psi like abilities. Powerstones must be held in your hand inorder to use them. Powers do not have somatic components, so you do not need to hold one in your hand and have a second free hand. To use a stone you only need to have one hand available to hold the stone and have a standard action. Wasnt there talk of allowing any skin contact in the case of creatures without hands?
Snommelp 11-07-05, 02:23 AM	I'm not going to clog the prison with this any farther:[QUOTE=Snommelp]*sigh* highlights do not comply with the SRD EDIT2: Since you claim to have gone to your dictionary, let me show you what I found in mine: Instrument: 1. A means by which something is done; an agency. 2. One used by another to accomplish a purpose; a dupe. 3. An implement used to facilitate work. See Synonyms at tool. 4. A device for recording, measuring, or controlling, especially such a device functioning as part of a control system. 5. Music. A device for playing or producing music: a keyboard instrument. 6. A legal document, such as a deed, will, mortgage, or insurance policy. Lots of different definitions there, when you implied that there would be only one. Do you have a less comprehensive dictionary than me? QUOTE] Look man, sorry. I did not intend to open the book and start a spitting match between you and the GM, but since I did open this book. Please Caterane, allow me close it. There is not one word in the SRD that says perform gets a tool bonus for having a subject specific tool/instrument. Look up perform is you feel like it, but you will find therin contains not even a refrence to Ma musical instruments. The line of verse in question is in Equipment.rtf - Tools and Skill Kits, Musical Instrument: ~ gives you a +2 to perform checks; all perform skill subjects; any instrument (lungs are organs not musical instruments), all performances sound better with accohortment :rimshot: Feel free to provoke me to clarify further, I could write a five paragraph essay about that (using that there introductory paragraph) before i have to get up for my 9am cla.. (wait what year is this? :cool: . But first let me ask a related question. Since I will end up in the hoosgow were I to mistakenly presume that a particular house call of mine was really core - "Ready 12/? - Perfroming "The Tantastic Dancing Spectacular +31" 12 of the finest gnomish darlings you ever did see! Trained Hirelings aiding my perform rating. Vaudvilian - maybe actually go for +35-42 w/ a few clowns too.. I would gross more than I net after paying for stuff - might wanna enforce a "venue charge" or something but... yeah, so whats the call on that perform tool? .... works on Profession too...... :rolleyes:I had a feeling someone would point that out, so let's look at the definition that applies. First: a musical instrument is a device, which is defined as "A contrivance or an invention serving a particular purpose." Second, it is a device for playing or producing music. Hennan's vocal implants are an invention serving the purpose of producing music. Therefore, they are an instrument. That's not the point, though. The point is that this is nothing more than an aesthetic choice which is being attacked. Cat's argument that you have to hold an instrument doesn't fly; I can think up any number of instruments that you can play without holding. Cat's argument isn't supported by the rules either, since the rules section you are pointing to doesn't even say that you have to play the instrument in order to get the bonus! What I want to know is why my aesthetic choice is being attacked so vehemently. The instrument is nothing more than an RP choice, and I'm being told that it's wrong.
Usurpator 11-07-05, 03:32 AM	Continuing the discussion from this post (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7688184&postcount=580) since the Prison is not the appropriate forum. @Caterane Even while you and Huan's intention might have been good, the effect is that such rewards as the upgrades disturb the 'level playing field' in CoCo. However you look at it, you asked for treasure at a discount, and you got them. To restore the level playing field there are a few options: 1. Let the upgrades stand. In this case I will volunteer as Questlord for anyone who desires to go questing for a particular treasure. I will then give them the desired treasure during the quest (although I am under no obligation to do so) while they will propose an alternative 'official' quest goal, letting them also benefit from the 25% discount. I will encourage other questlords to adopt the same approach. 2. Don't count Indri's upgrades as random treasure but put them into the books at full value. While this solves the problem in the short term, this also means we have to start policing every quest to look if the rewards are truly random, or if the quester has managed to convince the questlord to put in certain items for him. 3. Drop the 3/4 rule. My proposal is that all treasure found (magic items or otherwise) counts for its full value. Questers have the one-time option at the end of the quest to sell items they found at full market price or keep them. Solves the problem neatly, apart from that, it's an extra hassle to calculate the 3/4's. I prefer option 3.
Tellish_of_Ket 11-07-05, 03:36 AM	Continuing the discussion from this post (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7688184&postcount=580) since the Prison is not the appropriate forum. @Caterane Even while you and Huan's intention might have been good, the effect is that such rewards as the upgrades disturb the 'level playing field' in CoCo. However you look at it, you asked for treasure at a discount, and you got them. To restore the level playing field there are a few options: 1. Let the upgrades stand. In this case I will volunteer as Questlord for anyone who desires to go questing for a particular treasure. I will then give them the desired treasure during the quest (although I am under no obligation to do so) while they will propose an alternative 'official' quest goal, letting them also benefit from the 25% discount. I will encourage other questlords to adopt the same approach. 2. Don't count Indri's upgrades as random treasure but put them into the books at full value. While this solves the problem in the short term, this also means we have to start policing every quest to look if the rewards are truly random, or if the quester has managed to convince the questlord to put in certain items for him. 3. Drop the 3/4 rule. My proposal is that all treasure found (magic items or otherwise) counts for its full value. Questers have the one-time option at the end of the quest to sell items they found at full market price or keep them. Solves the problem neatly, apart from that, it's an extra hassle to calculate the 3/4's. I prefer option 3. I'd vote for option 3 as well. It seems pretty bogus that dropping "hints" nets you the treasure you desire for 3/4 gp, when you are making 33% bonus in the same time as a gladiator does. Personally, i've never recieved any treausre (random) at 3/4 in quests that i'm aware of. I've always had to pay full price, so i'm not sure why you get snazzy upgrades at a reduced cost over anyone else. "Down with partisanship!" lol -ToK
Caterane 11-07-05, 04:16 AM	I will pay the difference to full price then, and add a rule that upgrades do not count as 3/4. The 3/4 rule is necessary, else there's no need to drop items anymore because gold is always better (except when you find the exact item you want anyway). @Telin: I'd like to hear what you mean by: Second of all, the lack of pitlords will only become worse as people become more and more aware of the way things are run here. I will not leave yet - but I can guarantee if the GM doesn't clean up his act - the CoCo will only become more vacant than it already is. You can send me a PM if you prefer that.
Book5 11-07-05, 04:33 AM	I will, I warned you, and I really should read more rigourously... There is not one word in the SRD that says perform gets a tool bonus for having a subject specific tool/instrument. Look up perform is you feel like it, but you will find therin contains even a refrence to Ma musical instruments. The line of verse in question is in both SkillsII.rtf - Perform and Equipment.rtf - Tools and Skill Kits "Musical Instrument: A masterwork musical instrument gives you a +2 circumstance bonus on Perform checks that involve its use"; all perform skill subjects; any instrument (lungs are organs not musical instruments). All performances sound better with accohortment. Dudu du! In the perform skill it lists a number of perform subject options, a table of perform DCs with rewards, a refrence to all the actions and pertinant synergies, and includes a refrence to the one piece of equipment that grants the performing character a tool bonus. This tool is a "musical instrument" and the only refrence regarding how it must be used is that it must be used. A masterwork chime added to your garage sale flute performance still gives that extra +2. A masterwork set of bongos gives you the needed oomph to poetry, and a masterwork gong would go great with gergorian chant. A tool is an object that you can pick up and carry. It is an object that can be crafted with the appropriate craft skill. A tool is also a derogatory term for someone acting like one. A tool can be many things to websters but it means something specifically innanimate in the SRD. In this case a "musical instrument" is probably best defined as "any object that you can manipulate to make sound" a bard could probably get away with clanging double swords for Perform (Precusion) but lungs are as an limb sir. Lungs are an organ. You cannot masterwork you hands and gain a +1 to hit, and you cannot masterwork you eyeballs to get a +2 to spot. Thats what focus skills and buffs are for. "Flavor text", the word of this world is optimization. The choice for implants is optimally motivated by one or both of two factors. The inability to think of a valid "singing assistive" instrument: Accordian, Bells, Blocks, Bullhorn, Chime, Concertina, Drums, Gong, Guitar, Harp, Harpsicord, Mandolin, Organ, Piano, Rattles, or Spoons to name a few. The other is that fact that implants do not require the use of any limbs. Might as well graft gauntlets to you hands instead of taking improved unarmed strike. This is a natural following conclusion when considering that the descision to take singing, comedy, dancing, or oratory as bardic perform skills it done for the same optimal reasoning. The real stickler here is that there both sides of the debate are working on completly wrong assumptions. Caterane thinks that the rules allowing any tool that aids performance shouldn't include acanistic organ implants (he is the gm this is his world - in mine, if you can get them Id give you the circumstance bonus cheap), and Snommelp is under the mistaken impression that lungs are tools. Caterane is mistaken regarding the way the rules work, and while one may be able by the literary breadth of websters declare an organ system to be an instrument (hey lets all clap with our masterworked hands everybody! ), you cannot by SRD. Lungs as an insrument not only defies the SRD in that they cannot be crafted, but also grants your character a mechanically measurable benifit you are not intended to have. ... ok I'll spell check that in the morning and turn it in right after cla.. wait er .. no really snommelp. There is a confusion here, and I had to look twice to get it strait. If the rules worked the way Cat and Cow were discussing them then maybe - IF the rational world your character comes from allows such things... Androids. BUT it doesnt. I agree with you in the same sense that an actors body is their instrument... but not in the SRD sense. The SRD says that you gain a +2 when your performance involves the use of a masterwork musical instrument. Some performs require the use of an object (Perform Flute for example) and you can gain a +2 tool bonus when that object is masterworked. Some performs do not require the use of an object (Perform Poetry) but go better when an sound producing object of masterwork quality is played (even minimally) while you are performing. Either the floutist or the Poet could also choose to have a trained hireling perform backup with a masterwork xylaphone and they would both be eligible for the +2 tool bonus because the instrument was involved (assuming the floutist doesnt already have a masterwork flute). You cannot masterwork peices of your body. That is the long and the short of it. Flavor all you want. Call your rp instrument dohicky a "wablamo" and say that its a bell that hangs on your hat for all I care - but it better require a hand to use. How bout I be at least a little productive here - change your perform to dancing - and buy tap shoes, or choose an instrument that doesnt require hands.. like kazoo. Of course you would have to take that thing out of your mouth to sing or cast a spell (what with the verbal component and all). Umm :thinks: an outfit with bells all over it maybe.. what about.... juggaling masterwork knives (wait sound) er .... Perform (Whistle?) well no still have to have the thing in your mouth.. same with kazoo now that I think of it. Cant sing with a kazoo in your mouth - need a hand to put in and out at the right times. I hope that last paragraph highlights my point regarding the "tool" deffinition. When we talk about musical instruments we constantly run into this "manipulatable object" issue. Things that can be bought and sold by hand over counter . Outside of game mechanics - when people talk about how a singer's voice as his instrument... a sense motive check will detect the undertone of jealousy at that persons higher charisma bonus, something you cant buy. Yes this is a mystical world. What you are looking for is perm e. splendor, a singing sword, or mage hand to ring your masterwork bell for you. Lungs are not a contrivance nor an invention. They are, as I have said. An Organ. You cannot masterwork your hands. You cannot masterwork somebody elses hands and put them on your arms. You cannot make feet and put them on your feet. Well if Cat says that kind of thing happens in the world of Gladius, Im gonna go get me a +1 to unarmed strike... but :nonono: there are no peglegs or hooks in SRD&D. Flavor = "Treat Iron Golem as Android for my character Lt Commander Info" "Treat Celestial as Alien for my five characters Logeta, Soku, Sohon, Sotenks, and Bunks" "Treat Halfling as Hobbit for my character Frodo Gamgee of the Shire" "Treat Magic missle as dark force lightning for my character Bilf Broxm" "Treat masterwork mace as baseball bat w/a nail in it for my character Thunk" Violation = Using the rules in a way they were not intended to be used. @LLmadcow - adamantite ass cheeks wouldnt make noise. Nono, those would be the wrong organ for making the noise - you would need a cold iron sphinter replacement..... I should go to bed - I must be tired if Im degenerating to butt jokes. yawn. click. thud.
Usurpator 11-07-05, 04:37 AM	I will pay the difference to full price then, and add a rule that upgrades do not count as 3/4. The 3/4 rule is necessary, else there's no need to drop items anymore because gold is always better (except when you find the exact item you want anyway). A. Why should there be 'a need' to drop items? B. Reread my proposal 3. It makes rewards in items equal to gold, meaning the Questlord is totally free to drop items, gold or any combination thereof without consequences to the eventual reward, which is always the same. The 3/4 rule is not neccessary, my proposal provides a simpler alternative which also avoids (the illusion of) favoritism in any form or manner.
Pitlords 11-07-05, 07:12 AM	@all: From today on, I have much more time again... LivingGuilds: ...which means, the Start date for Guilds will be the 16th of November for sure. We will also see Team, Hunter, and All vs All fights again. They cost me too much time to set up and calculate in the last weeks. Fight Types: I've already begun to work on the rules for the new All vs All fights, as discussed some weeks ago in the Council. The old FFA fights (a->b->c->d->a) are now called "Hunter Fights". These Hunter Fights use a different map now: the Standard Cavern Map. Standard Maps: The new All vs All fights have been added to the rules, Arena Combat I. I've also added the map we decided to use, called <Grand Hall Map>. However, we still need a colored code map. Vath's code map has no colors. I'll give out 2° for coloring the Grand Hall Code! Please use the colors the other maps use for squares and obstacles. Frozen Quests/Campaigns: Then, I've added "Frozen Quests" and "Frozen Campaigns" to the Rules. As discussed in the Discussion thread, these are purely roleplaying, and have absolutely no impact on the coco. They won't even appear on the roster. Conversion: That may cause some to convert their [Old] characters. If you want to do that, please contact me BEFORE you do anything. You are allowed to alter the character to a certain extend because of the much different nature of LivingGladius. We will then convert him together. In any case, DO NOT edit your old sheet on the old characters thread. Post your converted character here in the stickied Characters thread. Free Campaigns: Finally, I've decided to give it a try. From next wednesday on, Campaign characters are NOT considered active anymore. Please note that this is still under trial!! I want to see if we can support it, and if it has any effect at all. If one of these two premisses fails, we will revert back to the old rule. Again: Campaign Characters are not considered active from now on!
Dracazar 11-07-05, 09:08 AM	Please may you help my with some tattoo? I'm not so psionic-oriented :) I need prices (and amount of credits if needed) for those: - Tattoo of Vigor +5 - Tattoo of Vigor +10 - Tattoo of Vigor +15 - Tattoo of Animal Affinity - Tattoo of Force Screen TY
Mal-2 11-07-05, 09:29 AM	I need prices (and amount of credits if needed) for those: - Tattoo of Vigor +5 - Tattoo of Vigor +10 - Tattoo of Vigor +15 - Tattoo of Animal Affinity - Tattoo of Force Screen I'm pretty sure we're using the same cost progression for augmented tattoos as for powerstones and dorjes, so: Tattoo of Vigor +5: 100 gp [ML 1 * PL 1 * 100 gp = 100gp] Tattoo of Vigor +10: 200 gp and 1° [ML 2 * PL 1 * 100 gp = 200gp] Tattoo of Vigor +15: 600 gp and 1° [ML 3 * PL 2 * 100 gp = 600gp] Tattoo of Animal Affinity: 600 gp [ML 3 * PL 2 * 100 gp = 600gp] Tattoo of Force Screen: 100 gp [ML 1 * PL 1 * 100 gp = 100gp] That look right to everyone? Edit: Added credit costs.
Macbrea 11-07-05, 09:34 AM	The manifester level for a standard psionic tattoo is the minimum manifester level needed to manifest the power (unless otherwise specified). So, as you can see.. I don't think you can make a vigor +10 or +15.
Snommelp 11-07-05, 10:04 AM	I'll only quote where I disagree:"Flavor text", the word of this world is optimization. The choice for implants is optimally motivated by one or both of two factors. The inability to think of a valid "singing assistive" instrument: Accordian, Bells, Blocks, Bullhorn, Chime, Concertina, Drums, Gong, Guitar, Harp, Harpsicord, Mandolin, Organ, Piano, Rattles, or Spoons to name a few. The other is that fact that implants do not require the use of any limbs. Might as well graft gauntlets to you hands instead of taking improved unarmed strike. This is a natural following conclusion when considering that the descision to take singing, comedy, dancing, or oratory as bardic perform skills it done for the same optimal reasoning.Yes, most people here care about optimization. I'll not deny that. I don't care about it, though. I just want to have fun playing DnD, since my gaming group is across the state, and a very large state at that. I chose Vocal Implants because when people perform Gregorian Chant, they do so unaccompanied. That was the entire reasoning. The real stickler here is that there both sides of the debate are working on completly wrong assumptions. Caterane thinks that the rules allowing any tool that aids performance shouldn't include acanistic organ implants (he is the gm this is his world - in mine, if you can get them Id give you the circumstance bonus cheap), and Snommelp is under the mistaken impression that lungs are tools. Caterane is mistaken regarding the way the rules work, and while one may be able by the literary breadth of websters declare an organ system to be an instrument (hey lets all clap with our masterworked hands everybody! ), you cannot by SRD. Lungs as an insrument not only defies the SRD in that they cannot be crafted, but also grants your character a mechanically measurable benifit you are not intended to have.You have me wrong. I never said that lungs were an instrument; Hennan has vocal implants (which would be more in the neck region anyway), which are a manufactured item, not an organ. How bout I be at least a little productive here - change your perform to dancing - and buy tap shoes, or choose an instrument that doesnt require hands.. like kazoo. Of course you would have to take that thing out of your mouth to sing or cast a spell (what with the verbal component and all). Umm :thinks: an outfit with bells all over it maybe.. what about.... juggaling masterwork knives (wait sound) er .... Perform (Whistle?) well no still have to have the thing in your mouth.. same with kazoo now that I think of it. Cant sing with a kazoo in your mouth - need a hand to put in and out at the right times.And there's the crux of my whole argument. I can think up instruments that can be played hands-free and which don't interfere with casting. For example: a bugle has enough piping that it could be straightened and reshaped to fit around a person's head like a hat or neck like a necklace and still be played. From what I gather, you and Cat would be OK with that. How then are Hennan's vocal implants game-breaking? It's the exact same concept, I just wanted a bard who performed Gregorian Chant, so I'm being attacked! Flavor = "Treat Iron Golem as Android for my character Lt Commander Info" "Treat Celestial as Alien for my five characters Logeta, Soku, Sohon, Sotenks, and Bunks" "Treat Halfling as Hobbit for my character Frodo Gamgee of the Shire" "Treat Magic missle as dark force lightning for my character Bilf Broxm" "Treat masterwork mace as baseball bat w/a nail in it for my character Thunk" Violation = Using the rules in a way they were not intended to be used. Flavor: Treat my MW Instrument as an amplifier which also purifies the tone quality of the music made. Violation: ...don't see any. Perhaps you can help me out; how were the rules for Instruments "intended" to be used? It seems to me that they were intended to give the Perform skill a +2 bonus by purchasing a reusable item, but apparently I'm wrong. In closing: I could give Hennan "Perform: Finger Cymbals" and he would be the exact same character as far as mechanics are concerned. Stop attacking my flavor text!! :rant:
Macbrea 11-07-05, 10:58 AM	I have a question for people would you rather I keep Mektos' weights out to the 8th decimal place as they are now or convert them to the ounces they would be. His mount would look like: Weight Carried: 32.8828125 lbs vs Weight Carried: 32 lbs 14 1/8 oz.
Dracazar 11-07-05, 12:25 PM	I'm pretty sure we're using the same cost progression for augmented tattoos as for powerstones and dorjes, so: Tattoo of Vigor +5: 100 gp [ML 1 * PL 1 * 100 gp = 100gp] Tattoo of Vigor +10: 200 gp and 1° [ML 2 * PL 1 * 100 gp = 200gp] Tattoo of Vigor +15: 600 gp and 1° [ML 3 * PL 2 * 100 gp = 600gp] Tattoo of Animal Affinity: 600 gp [ML 3 * PL 2 * 100 gp = 600gp] Tattoo of Force Screen: 100 gp [ML 1 * PL 1 * 100 gp = 100gp] That look right to everyone? On the Rules of Gladius (here) I read 25gp * ML * PL, why do you use 100gp? Did you have some SRD urls that will help me for future calculations? TY
TelinArtho 11-07-05, 12:36 PM	A powerstone would be 25*ML*PL. A tattoo is 50*ML*PL (double if the power is personal). Also, PL increases if the ML is increased by 2 over the minimum with augmentation: Tattoo of Force Screen (ML1) 100gp (Augmented, ML2) 200gp (Augmented, ML3 (PL2)) 600gp etc.
TelinArtho 11-07-05, 03:47 PM	Hmmm - quests galore I guess: Daeren Stronghammer will need an appropriate miniquest to join The Living Tree Guild. (MQ EL4-5) Sir Valkin will need a quest to join the Celestial Forces (full quest EL4, quest goal to find information leading to the discovery of the Silver Sun Edicts) Delaria will need a quest in the near future. (full quest, EL4, quest goal to gain a Medium Fire Elemental (CR3) as an ally). Any active questlords willing to take one of these on?
Book5 11-07-05, 04:23 PM	I'll only quote where I disagree:Yes, most people here care about optimization. I'll not deny that. I don't care about it, though. Actually the fact that you are playing a pure bard pretty much gives that away. :embarrass - I may be having more fun with this than I should. BUT Im right so.... This time around we are looking at three primary possible musical instruments. A bent bugle, finger cymbals, and an "amplifier." Now an amplifier is most certainly an instrument. The mid-evil equivalent of an amplifier is a bullhorn. I brought this up earlier (now if you can buy a microphone and soundsystem for your character - I get to buy an uzzi um'kay? ). Finger cymbols would interfere "mechanically" with anything you were holding in your hand and would prevent you from casting somatic components. A bugle requires at least one hand to play properly. Unless... do you mean bugle as in bullhorn? Cause a bugle is valvless trumpet. You have to hold those on your face pretty tight to actually get them to play. - One hand would be fine. OMG! I do not believe what I just wrote! I figured it out! Ok snommelp, let me try to explain by what I meant when I said - "not intended" Skip, Monte, and that other guy - nor anyone in their crews were able to think up a masterwork musical instrument for oratory/singing. Hence the elegant circumlooping in the rules such that a "musical instrument" must be "involved." This gives perfromers with instruments the bonus of "simple." This gives the performers without instruments the bonus of "look ma no hands." This also allows them both to gain bonuses for having backup and allows an entire troupe to gain the +2 tool bonus (allowing a trained hireling with a cha+1 and 3 ranks - to take 10 and grant an additional +2 aid) when a single. masterwork. bell. is involved anywhere in the production. No, go, write em a letter. You and me snommelp have figured. it. out. You went overboard. Give your character a "mw helmet/megaphon" simple. Same idea. Still absurd, and silly. But its an object. Its something I could pick pocket off of you. It would have materials and hardness, and it would be obviously in your inventory. Thats why lung implants are more than bad flavor text. They dont exist. They have no method of "use" and while they may take up lb/gp they are INSIDE your characters body. I am glad you tried this move. A whole bunch of people in this room thought that skill worked a way that it doesnt. Me included. I will be adding a masterwork instrument of some kind to my character sheet. I think I will go with a bell. You see, bells are a common spell component. Also, I can start with a bell in my hand, and ring it. Once, and then put it away while I keep talking, and the bell was still "involved" in my performance. I will be able to gain the +2 for my weekly perform, and I will have a way to increase the utility of the what? Two? ways to get a combat use out of your perform rating? Im not gonna bother taking the bell to the arena at least until I find a reason to use counter song. Really thats the big reason for the violation. So far tap shoes for dance, and helmet rigged megaphone are the only two .. absolutly ludicrous!! possibile objects that would enable you to gain the same mechanical benifit as these fairy tale "lung implants." \W/ = |lll| Strict adherence to core - occasionally impacts rp. I would prefer Tan not use a spiked chain. Seems little evil for a good guy. Not quite as indiana jones. But to do what I need to do with a weapon I need a spiked chain. To do what you need to do with a tool, is declare where on your body (ie what slot of your magic items/readied hands) it takes up and then (treat as whatever). When you stay in the bounds of readily identifiable objects (flute, bell, bullhorn) you are simply able to presume we are gonna know whats up. Lung implants are not ... :rant: you could enchant that and have a magic item embeded in your body! --> that was "book closed" btw @all I am curious how many people here think you should be able to get a +2 tool bonus for having a book when you are doing oratory? 'Cause you dont. No +2 for podiums, no +2 for props when acting, nope none nada. Musical instrument! Involved! You dont even have to be playing it.. :smirk: :bow: Thank you all! Goodnight! :rimshot: Now, back to my other idea - since no one on the prison thread felt like answering. Would it be a violation to hire 13 attractive and trained gnomish .. silver bell ringing maidens to aid my perform check = Perform +35 = plenty of potions!! Its not like it would thousands of dollars or anything. :bigeyes: Its entierly srd - but im not sure how it ramificates with the economy setup. I would say a quick fix would be to up the cost for assistants (when using them to earn income weekly - to something like 5-10 sp. Covering the cost of organization and implementation of a group workspace. - Could also put a credit control on the number of assistants you would be able to employ. :bigeyes: This works with profession and craft too. With craft you have to pay for the initial setup of buying tools for everybody - but craft tools give a +2 to for appropriate so you dont have to go masterwork. Profession, and I guess gather information would work this way too, you have to presume that a trained professional ecl one expert would have either a +2 score bonus or an appropriate feat in addition to 3 the necessary ranks. :bigeyes: Can I do that in Gladius? Tan asked the bartender.
One_Winged_Angel 11-07-05, 05:47 PM	Question relating to powerstones/scrolls: Can you custom buy/craft stones that are purposefully lower CL/ML than normal? EX: A wizard wishes to buy a scroll of Phantasmal killer at Level 3. However, he cannot do so as we have a CL+2 rule for buying scrolls. Can he buy a scroll that was made intentionally lower CL?
NiQil 11-07-05, 05:52 PM	Question relating to powerstones/scrolls: Can you custom buy/craft stones that are purposefully lower CL/ML than normal? EX: A wizard wishes to buy a scroll of Phantasmal killer at Level 3. However, he cannot do so as we have a CL+2 rule for buying scrolls. Can he buy a scroll that was made intentionally lower CL? To my knowledge, no. Scrolls and powerstones are always made at the minimum CL that would be needed to cast the spell or power.
TelinArtho 11-07-05, 05:54 PM	The lowest CL a scroll can be made is the lowest CL that the spell could be cast by the scriber. So, Phantasmal Killer, scribed by a 7th level wizard (it is a 4th level spell), can not be scribed lower than CL7. However, if multiple classes have the same spell and one class can scribe it at a lower CL, that is acceptable. This is why you frequently see Divine scrolls of Resist Energy scribed at CL2 by Rangers (the minimum CL for a ranger) or Scrolls of Cure Moderate Wounds crafted by clerics as opposed to paladins.
Snommelp 11-07-05, 06:28 PM	A bugle requires at least one hand to play properly. Unless... do you mean bugle as in bullhorn? Cause a bugle is valvless trumpet.I know how a bugle works; I play trombone. I also know that a bugle has enough piping that you could wrap one around your neck like a neclklace and be able to press it to your lips by just moving your head forward. If that is too unbelievable for you, though, how about a harmonica? A lot of harmonica players have neck harnesses so that they can play without using their hands. They do this so that they can play piano or guitar at the same time. You would be hard pressed to slight-of-hand that off of someone, since it's wrapped around his head. If it makes you feel better, though, let's say that Hennan's implants are on the outside. They aren't really implants, but they're called that because I can't think of another name for them. He takes them off at night and can do so without hurting himself. Does that make you happy?
NiQil 11-07-05, 06:36 PM	I know how a bugle works; I play trombone. I also know that a bugle has enough piping that you could wrap one around your neck like a neclklace and be able to press it to your lips by just moving your head forward. If that is too unbelievable for you, though, how about a harmonica? A lot of harmonica players have neck harnesses so that they can play without using their hands. They do this so that they can play piano or guitar at the same time. You would be hard pressed to slight-of-hand that off of someone, since it's wrapped around his head. If it makes you feel better, though, let's say that Hennan's implants are on the outside. They aren't really implants, but they're called that because I can't think of another name for them. He takes them off at night and can do so without hurting himself. Does that make you happy? Just get him one of those voice boxes that people who have had tracheotomies use to give them a buzzing voice...it's held to the voice box, but it could easily be tied there with a strap or chain. We can call Hennan "Tracheotomy Man" LOL
Iced 11-08-05, 12:15 AM	Crafting a Forge of Armorsmithing +10 would cost me 5,000gp/1,000xp and 10o right?
Guildmaster (EHTC) 11-08-05, 03:41 AM	The RP portion of the EHTC is now open. I have a bit of work to do still on the guild overall, but I want those who have put in work for me to have the opportunity to live out their characters.
Caterane 11-08-05, 03:43 AM	Crafting a Forge of Armorsmithing +10 would cost me 5,000gp/1,000xp and 10o right? Yes
Elephant Jack 11-08-05, 04:33 AM	Hello everybody! I'm just building my first CoCo-Gladiator and I've got some questions concerning my Druid's animal companion (riding dog): -How many tricks does the dog know, how many can I teach him? Does he start with some tricks or do the tricks/bonus tricks from the Handle Animal skill/Druid class require the use of "free activities"? -I'm building a halfing... does a small character on a medium mount gain a +1 bonus for fighting from higher ground against medium-sized characters? And one general question: -Exactly how detailed should the tactics-section be? Do I need to have a tactic ready for each and every situation? What happens if I forget a circumstance? How will my gladiator act vs. grapplers if I forget to define his tactics vs. grapplers, for example? So, I guess that's all... Thanks! Sincerly yours Elephant Jack
NiQil 11-08-05, 05:33 AM	Hello everybody! I'm just building my first CoCo-Gladiator and I've got some questions concerning my Druid's animal companion (riding dog): -How many tricks does the dog know, how many can I teach him? Does he start with some tricks or do the tricks/bonus tricks from the Handle Animal skill/Druid class require the use of "free activities"? -I'm building a halfing... does a small character on a medium mount gain a +1 bonus for fighting from higher ground against medium-sized characters? And one general question: -Exactly how detailed should the tactics-section be? Do I need to have a tactic ready for each and every situation? What happens if I forget a circumstance? How will my gladiator act vs. grapplers if I forget to define his tactics vs. grapplers, for example? So, I guess that's all... Thanks! Sincerly yours Elephant Jack In order... The tricks known are based on the animal's intelligence, to start with. An Int 1 animal knows 3 tricks, and an Int 2 animal knows 6 tricks, if memory serves. In addition, a druidic animal companion gains additional bonus tricks that it knows based on the druid's ECL. These tricks can be known at creation of the character. Unsure about the higher ground bonus...I'm not as familiar as I should be with mounted combat. The tactics section of the sheet is for default tactics. These are generally only used if you do not submit tactics to your pitlord before the deadline. They can be as detailed or as brief as you want them to be. Take a look at some of the other characters to get an idea of what people place in default tactics. That should help in determine what you want there for your character. Generally speaking, most people use this for very generic tactics....things like "If facing a caster, go to melee quickly" for a fighter type build, or "Always drink potion of XX and use scroll of XX to buff," or other things. If there is something you always want your character to do, that would be the place to put it, so that if you are not, for whatever reason, able to submit tactics, at least your character will still have a chance at success. If no tactics have been submitted, and a pitlord is running from your default tactics and they do not cover a certain situation, then it falls to the pitlord to use their best judgement for your character.
Maraxus 11-08-05, 07:41 AM	Question: May a non-elder post in an elder-pool-thread? :)
Macbrea 11-08-05, 07:48 AM	You only get high ground if you are actually on a higher elevation or your mount is at least one size larger then your opponent. So, if you are a halfling on a dog. It would only get high ground vs small or smaller creatures.
Pittbull 11-08-05, 08:32 AM	Question: May a non-elder post in an elder-pool-thread? :) Of course you can post there, but you shouldn't vote.
Elephant Jack 11-08-05, 10:44 AM	In order... [...] The tactics section of the sheet is for default tactics. These are generally only used if you do not submit tactics to your pitlord before the deadline. [...] If no tactics have been submitted, and a pitlord is running from your default tactics and they do not cover a certain situation, then it falls to the pitlord to use their best judgement for your character. Ah, thank you very much...! I'm not really sure if I stick to my initial idea (riding dog mounted halfling druid)... too many variables (Ride checks, Concentration checks...) which can get quite confusing (though I've done some COpitmization before, I'm pretty sure that I've done nothing like this before). Perhaps an easier build for the first time. I'm sure I've read it already, but how many gladiators am I allowed to "own" and perhaps more important: What happens if I'm not satisfied with my first gladiator? Am I allowed to retire him and to build a new one? Hope these questions aren't too dumb, but my time is very limited and there's _so_much_ to read on this boards... sincerly yours Elephant Jack
Macbrea 11-08-05, 10:49 AM	You may have upto two active characters if your not pitlording. Pitlords can have more if they take alot of fights. This doesn't mean you cannot have 3 to 5 characters, what it means is only 2 may do anything in a week. Basicly, the reason for this is to either promote people to pitlord or to only play a limited number. Pitlording can take up quite a bit of time if the fight runs long. The silly fight I did last night took me almost 6 hours to do. Only to have an error in the 3rd round shortening the fight to 4 rounds.
Tellish_of_Ket 11-08-05, 11:17 AM	Ah, thank you very much...! I'm not really sure if I stick to my initial idea (riding dog mounted halfling druid)... too many variables (Ride checks, Concentration checks...) which can get quite confusing (though I've done some COpitmization before, I'm pretty sure that I've done nothing like this before). Perhaps an easier build for the first time. I'm sure I've read it already, but how many gladiators am I allowed to "own" and perhaps more important: What happens if I'm not satisfied with my first gladiator? Am I allowed to retire him and to build a new one? Hope these questions aren't too dumb, but my time is very limited and there's _so_much_ to read on this boards... sincerly yours Elephant Jack Indeed if you don't like a gladiator you may retire him and begin anew. You may have up to two gladiators without the cost of expending credits. This is easiest done if you lost your first fight. You can always just "hit the reset button" and being the following week with a 0 - 0 record and that way if you win, at least you're on a winning streak. hehe Halfling mounted druid can be very strong. Don't worry about it getting complicated, that's the pitlords job. :) Of course, once you are able to wildshape, having created the mounted build will lose it's efficacy at that level. Wildshaping is very powerful. -ToK
Macbrea 11-08-05, 11:18 AM	Silly question: Longbow, Composite You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. You can use a composite longbow while mounted. All composite bows are made with a particular strength rating (that is, each requires a minimum Strength modifier to use with proficiency). If your Strength bonus is less than the strength rating of the composite bow, you can’t effectively use it, so you take a -2 penalty on attacks with it. The default composite longbow requires a Strength modifier of +0 or higher to use with proficiency. A composite longbow can be made with a high strength rating to take advantage of an above-average Strength score; this feature allows you to add your Strength bonus to damage, up to the maximum bonus indicated for the bow. Each point of Strength bonus granted by the bow adds 100 gp to its cost. Are you allowed to purchase a Longbow, Composite Str -2, for 300gps in order to have a composite longbow useable by low strength individual?
Cerebus13 11-08-05, 11:32 AM	Silly question: Are you allowed to purchase a Longbow, Composite Str -2, for 300gps in order to have a composite longbow useable by low strength individual?Unfortunately no, this isn't possible. I ran into this with an earlier character and the arising discussion agreed that the default Composite bow (tailored to Str 10) is the "weakest" Composite bow you can purchase.
SauroGrenom 11-08-05, 12:23 PM	I'd like to ask for some advice from the gallery. I'm trying to choose the 1st level feat for Raskos (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7659455&postcount=518) and I'm waffling between several different options. His future will include psion and then into crebremancer, so I could go Enlarge Power(increased range) or Improved Familiar(fiendish raven with SR, DR, ER and smite good), or I could go the Overchannel-Talented route. What do you think? How usefull would the improved familiar be. Has anyone else used this feat to great effect?
TelinArtho 11-08-05, 12:39 PM	Crafting a Forge of Armorsmithing +10 would cost me 5,000gp/1,000xp and 10o right? Actually, it would have a market price of 10kgp, so crafting it would be 5000gp, 250xp - not 1000xp.
Tellish_of_Ket 11-08-05, 12:39 PM	How usefull would the improved familiar be. Has anyone else used this feat to great effect? Well, just as an example Memorex is taking the improved familiar feat "blink dog". So he'll be halfling mounted illusionist blinking around the battlefied. No, he can't dim door with the mutt, but still, the blinking is cool. -ToK
One_Winged_Angel 11-08-05, 12:40 PM	... Could someone solve the sticky tavern issue?
Cerebus13 11-08-05, 12:44 PM	The following is the entry for the Strength score:Strength (Str) Strength measures your character’s muscle and physical power. This ability is especially important for fighters, barbarians, paladins, rangers, and monks because it helps them prevail in combat. Strength also limits the amount of equipment your character can carry. You apply your character’s Strength modifier to: * Melee attack rolls. * Damage rolls when using a melee weapon or a thrown weapon (including a sling). (Exceptions: Off-hand attacks receive only one-half the character’s Strength bonus, while two-handed attacks receive one and a half times the Strength bonus. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies to attacks made with a bow that is not a composite bow.) * Climb, Jump, and Swim checks. These are the skills that have Strength as their key ability. * Strength checks (for breaking down doors and the like).Note the bolded portion. If a character that has a penalty to damage, due to a low Strength, wields a Composite longbow do they still receive a Strength penalty to damage? Arguments have been presented that this bolded section:Projectile Weapons Light crossbows, slings, heavy crossbows, shortbows, composite shortbows, longbows, composite longbows, hand crossbows, and repeating crossbows are projectile weapons. Most projectile weapons require two hands to use (see specific weapon descriptions). A character gets no Strength bonus on damage rolls with a projectile weapon unless it’s a specially built composite shortbow, specially built composite longbow, or sling. If the character has a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when he or she uses a bow or a sling. or this one:Originally Posted by Longbow, Composite The bow can't grant him a higher bonus than he already has.refute this argument. The first section (Projectile Weapons) is not as specific as the one listed in the Strength entry and thus I believe it does not take precedent. The second quoted section is found only in the Players Handbook and seems to override the other rules. The community will need to decide which rule overrides the other in this case, because they are contradicting each other.
Tellish_of_Ket 11-08-05, 12:44 PM	... Could someone solve the sticky tavern issue? It is solved. It will never be stickied again. So say'eth the moderators. Only three stickies allowed per board maximum. -ToK
TelinArtho 11-08-05, 12:45 PM	Hmmm - quests galore I guess: Daeren Stronghammer will need an appropriate miniquest to join The Living Tree Guild. (MQ EL4-5) Sir Valkin will need a quest to join the Celestial Forces (full quest EL4, quest goal to find information leading to the discovery of the Silver Sun Edicts) Delaria will need a quest in the near future. (full quest, EL4, quest goal to gain a Medium Fire Elemental (CR3) as an ally). Any active questlords willing to take one of these on? Well, I just realized that Daeren and Sir Valkin won't need to quest for their positions in their respective guilds. I guess that leaves me open for other quests. Okay here goes: Delaria will need a quest in the near future. (full quest, EL4, quest goal to gain a Medium Fire Elemental (CR3) as an ally). Daeren wants to quest for help in slaying dragons. (full quest, EL6-7, quest goal to recover a Longspear +1, Bane vs Dragons) Sir Valkin wants to quest to find information about the Silver Sun Edicts (full quest, EL4, quest goal: Lance +1) Any takers (these are in order of preference by the way)
TelinArtho 11-08-05, 01:04 PM	Regarding the taxes for members of guilds I noticed that Sir Valkin is listed at 8% - which would indicate 2 allies. Perhaps the rules for the taxes should be adjusted slightly to ignore "non-combatant" allies - since the only reason he has kept Flagon is for roleplay purposes. I suppose its really not that big of a deal - but I figured I would mention it. Also, when a member of a guild advances, is it the guildlord's responsibility to update the guild roster with the correct ECL? Or should guildmembers PM the appropriate guildlord when the member advances? /d
King Uther 11-08-05, 02:18 PM	@Sauro Virgo's cohort has the feat, and when she is level 7 she'll have a pseudodragon. It has a lot of uses as a familiar.
TelinArtho 11-08-05, 03:12 PM	Speed: A half-celestial has feathered wings and can fly at twice the base creature’s base land speed (good maneuverability). If the base creature has a fly speed, use that instead. If this template were applied to a human barbarian - what would the resultant fly speed be? 60ft or 80ft?
Sindorin 11-08-05, 03:17 PM	The barbarian's fast movement adds 10 feet to the barbarian's base speed - this is added before any armor penalties or size modifiers are put in. Thus, I'm pretty sure that the additional 10 feet would double. Good times.
King Uther 11-08-05, 03:38 PM	If you took the Speed of Thought feet it would be 100ft.
Mind Rogue 11-08-05, 04:02 PM	If you took the Speed of Thought feet it would be 100ft. Not quite. Speed of Thought is an insight bonus, while Expeditious Retreat, Longstrider, and the Monk's Fast Movement are enhancement bonuses. None of these are part of 'base land speed' so they wouldn't increase the aerial speed of a half-celestial. However, Speed of Thought gives a +10 bonus to all speeds, so it applies to your fly speed as well. Additionally, the barbarian just says that his "land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet", so that sounds like it might actually increase the base land speed and thus the half-celestial speed as well.
Sunwolf 11-08-05, 04:11 PM	Wouldn't a monk's fast movement enhance *all* of the speeds(Land, fly, swim, burrow etc) of a character?
Emrys Donovan 11-08-05, 04:56 PM	Anyone care to check over Vladimir (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7697807&postcount=521) for me? Thanks.
TelinArtho 11-08-05, 05:01 PM	Wild Elf Wild elves are barbaric and tribal. Wild elves’ hair color ranges from black to light brown, lightening to silvery white with age. They dress in simple clothing of animal skins and basic plant weaves. Wild Elf Traits (Ex): These traits are in addition to the high elf traits, except where noted. — +2 Dexterity, –2 Intelligence. These adjustments replace the high elf ’s ability score adjustments. —Favored Class: Sorcerer. This trait replaces the high elf ’s favored class. His racial bonuses are incorrect. It looks like you applied the high elf AND the wild elf's bonuses. It should just be +2 Dex, -2 Int not +4 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Int. [EDIT] Also this line in your skills is a little confusing: +5 Use Psionic Device [2 (Rogue) +3 Cha] [+2 Eagle's Splendor][4 Ranks] It should read: +5 Use Psionic Device [4 (RogueCC) +3 Cha] [+2 Eagle's Splendor][2 Ranks]
Emrys Donovan 11-08-05, 05:30 PM	Ok, thanks.
Mind Rogue 11-08-05, 06:23 PM	So, out of curiosity, who gets Use Psionic Device as a class skill? Don't none of the base psionic classes have UPD as a class skill, so unless you use the magic-psionic transparency to give bards and rogues UPD, none of the base classes have this skill as a class skill.
Emrys Donovan 11-08-05, 06:35 PM	Anyone care to check over Vladimir (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7697807&postcount=521) for me? Thanks. Ok, I fixed him a bit. What else is wrong?
Iced 11-08-05, 07:00 PM	Ok, I fixed him a bit. What else is wrong? he gets a -2 penalty on all attacks with the longbow as long as he has a strength score under 8.
Emrys Donovan 11-08-05, 07:22 PM	he gets a -2 penalty on all attacks with the longbow as long as he has a strength score under 8. From the SRD: A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies on attacks made with a bow that is not a composite bow. Vlad uses a Composite Longbow.
Iced 11-08-05, 07:26 PM	Longbow, Composite: You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. You can use a composite longbow while mounted. All composite bows are made with a particular strength rating (that is, each requires a minimum Strength modifier to use with proficiency). If your Strength bonus is less than the strength rating of the composite bow, you can’t effectively use it, so you take a –2 penalty on attacks with it. The default composite longbow requires a Strength modifier of +0 or higher to use with proficiency. A composite longbow can be made with a high strength rating to take advantage of an above-average Strength score; this feature allows you to add your Strength bonus to damage, up to the maximum bonus indicated for the bow. Each point of Strength bonus granted by the bow adds 100 gp to its cost. For purposes of weapon proficiency and similar feats, a composite longbow is treated as if it were a longbow there's my reference
Mind Rogue 11-08-05, 07:27 PM	His Str mod should be only -1, and his Dex bonus only +4. You have written your AC line twice. You should strike out everything after the first [Shield of Faith +2] He suffers a -2 penalty on the composite longbow as long as his Str is below 10. You can give up 10' of this and pick up a normal longbow to fix that. You suffer a -1 penalty on damage with all of your weapons. This is also currently being debated about whether it applies to composite longbows, but I think it will show that it does. You're now a high elf instead of a wild elf, but your special abilities are marked as a wild elf's (not that there is a difference). I also thought that Track was a 1st level ranger ability, not a second (although it doens't really matter). You cannot use the following skills because you have no ranks in them and thus they should be removed: Appraise, Autohypnosis, Decipher Script, Disable Device, all Knowledges, Open Lock, Psi Craft, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft, Survival, Tumble, Use Magic Device. Cat's Grace, Cure Mod Wounds, and Eagle's Splendor each have a CL of 3 when in potion form. You need at least a +6 Use Psionic Device modifier to address your powerstones. Thus you cannot address them. You also are unable to activate them blindly because of your low score, and if you can't address them, you also cannot use the Activate Powerstone use of UPD. Besides, you're incredibly unlikely to activate them in the heat of battle. Thus, I suggest getting some tattoos and to consider UMD instead (which gets you more ranks and is more useful in general anyway).
Mal-2 11-08-05, 11:13 PM	If I want to upgrade a masterwork nonmagical weapon to a +1 weapon, what do I need to do? Just pay the 2000gp difference in price? Buy a whole new weapon, selling the old one? Do I need to sit out a week while the item is crafted?
King Uther 11-08-05, 11:34 PM	If it is masterwork, you just pay the 2000. If it is not, you must buy a new weapon.
NiQil 11-09-05, 12:13 AM	A couple of questions...and I think these might have come up before, but I couldn't find anything on em anywhere. 1) Can psi-like abilities be augmented? The text explaining psi-like abilities says that when using them, the user does not have to pay an PP cost for them initially, but that otherwise they act like normal powers of the same name, which would lead me to believe that they can if the power says it can. 2) If a race, such as elan or duergar, gets power points as a racial trait, but does not have levels in a manifester class, are they still able to use those power points to augment any psi-like abilities they may have (assuming the answer to 1 is yes)?
SauroGrenom 11-09-05, 01:46 AM	It is my understanding that all psi like abilities are augmented at no cost to the user and augmented to the maximum that is allowd by the manifester level of the psi-like ability. You cannot however use metapsionic feats to augment psi-like abilities.
SauroGrenom 11-09-05, 01:49 AM	The relevant passage is in the SRD at the beginning of the Psionic Monsters section. it goes as follows:When a creature uses a psi-like ability, the power is manifested as if the creature had spent a number of power points equal to its manifester level, which may augment the power to improve its damage or save DC. However, the creature does not actually spend power points for its psi-like abilities, even if it has a power point reserve due to racial abilities, class levels, or some other psionic ability.
NiQil 11-09-05, 02:28 AM	The relevant passage is in the SRD at the beginning of the Psionic Monsters section. it goes as follows: That really doesn't answer the question one way or the other. Let me provide an example: A duergar has the ability to use the power Expansion as a psi-like ability, but it operates just as the power listing. The power listing states that the duration of the power is one round per level normally. However, it also gives various options for augmentation of the power. One of those states that for an additional 2 power points, the duration of the power will change from one round per level to one minute per level. Now, since the power Expansion is a 1st level psychic warrior power, it only takes one PP to activate normally. Using your quote, which says that a psi-like ability is manifested as if using a number of power points equal to the creatures manifester level (which may augment the power to increase it's damage or save DC), that would mean that the a 3rd level duergar character would be spending the equivalent to 3 pp on the power, which would be 1 for the power and 2 that, based on your quote, would appear to augment the ability to last 1 min/level instead of 1 round/level. Hence the reason for my questions.
Vathelokai 11-09-05, 05:33 AM	Could someone remind me of what the rule is for mounts/armor proficiency/trained for war? Does this effect druid animal companions in any way? Other then what tricks they would need to know to wear armor?
Guildmaster (CEF) 11-09-05, 05:37 AM	@all: I once saw some kind of 'bear-like' celestial in a book. Hairy Humanoid body and a bear-head. Do you know where I can find him, or at least how this race is called? Thanks. Cat.
Vathelokai 11-09-05, 05:53 AM	Guardinals. The bear ones were Ursinals or something like that. They were all the chaotic good outsiders in 2nd ed. ...I'll go look it up and post the results in a minute.
Pittbull 11-09-05, 05:54 AM	@Cat: I sent it yesterday to you. It's an Ursinal Guardinal by Matthew Mitchell. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/boed_gallery/75112.jpg
Vathelokai 11-09-05, 06:32 AM	From Planescape Monsterous Compendum: Appendix 2 Ursinal climate: Elysium Organization: Solitary Intelligence: 17-18 Align: NG AC -4 [24 in 3rd ed] move 12 [30 in 3rd ed] HD 10+5 [10 with a con bonus of 5] THAC0: 11 [bab +9] attack: claw/claw/bite 2d6+7/2d6+7/1d10 special attack: hug 2d10 (gains a 'rake' bite while hugging) special quality: never supprised on home plane, lay on hands as a paladin (max heal/day is the ursinals max HP), immune to electricity, resist cold and poision, half damage from magic missiles DR: only silver or +3 hits Size: Large (8 feet +) Magic Resistance 45% Morale: Fanatic (17-18) XP value: 14,000 Ursinals are the advisors, schollars and philosophers of the Guardianals. Ursinals avoid physical confrontation. Ursinals can cast spells as a wizard of 1d8+8 lvs. 1/round: continual light, ESP, hold monster, know align., polymorph, magic missile (cl 9), deep slumber, solid fog, det. illusion, det. invisibility, dimension door, dispel magic, infravision, circle prot. evil, tounges (not with abberations), plane shift (only between Elysium and Astral plane) 3/day: cure disease, heal, neutralize poision 1/day: holy word 1/year: limited wish Animals never attack guardinals, even under magical compulsion. Guardinals in general: The native race of Elysium (neutral good plane). They all have the aspects of a type of animal, similar in appearence to hybrid were creatures. They have no tollerence for evil and occasionally raid neutral planes to attack creatures from the lower planes. Guardinals are creatures of exceptional honor and integrity. They never lie, cheat, steal, or attack needlessly. Guardinals have no official structure, but generaly follow the lead of the leonals (lion types). Other types of guardinals are avoral (birds), cervidal (saytr), equinal (horse), leonal (lion), and lupinal (dog).
Vathelokai 11-09-05, 06:36 AM	:bump:I hate it when my question is at the bottom of the page Could someone remind me of what the rule is for mounts/armor proficiency/trained for war? Does this effect druid animal companions in any way? Other then what tricks they would need to know to wear armor?
Macbrea 11-09-05, 08:32 AM	Trained for War: If you want to equip your ally with barding, it needs to be trained for war or suffer penalties for not being proficient with armor. This requires the 'Combat Riding Package' which consists of the six tricks Attack, Come, Defend, Down, Guard, and Heel. Alternatively, you can customize your ally by exchanging its feats with armor proficiencies (see FAQ: Allies I for more information about that). Druids companions are allies by Allies 1. So, the only tricks you need to teach them are the 6 tricks listed above. Your companion needs to be able to learn 6 tricks. Intelligence 1 can learn 3 and intelligence 2 can learn 6. The druid gets a bonus tricks as their companion goes up in levels. Example: Mektos' Kisandra has a Intelligence 2 eagle and +1 bonus trick for being the companion of druid of level 2. She may learn 7 tricks, If she learned Attack, Come, Defend, Down, Guard, and Heel, she would be trained for war. That assumes her master could be small enough to ride the eagle in the first place, which he is for short periods each day.
Scribelords 11-09-05, 09:58 AM	New Picture in the Gallery: MysticMonk2005 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7048390&postcount=3) Mystic +2°
Mind Rogue 11-09-05, 11:01 AM	That really doesn't answer the question one way or the other. Let me provide an example: A duergar has the ability to use the power Expansion as a psi-like ability, but it operates just as the power listing. The power listing states that the duration of the power is one round per level normally. However, it also gives various options for augmentation of the power. One of those states that for an additional 2 power points, the duration of the power will change from one round per level to one minute per level. Now, since the power Expansion is a 1st level psychic warrior power, it only takes one PP to activate normally. Using your quote, which says that a psi-like ability is manifested as if using a number of power points equal to the creatures manifester level (which may augment the power to increase it's damage or save DC), that would mean that the a 3rd level duergar character would be spending the equivalent to 3 pp on the power, which would be 1 for the power and 2 that, based on your quote, would appear to augment the ability to last 1 min/level instead of 1 round/level. Hence the reason for my questions. That pretty much somes it up. A duergar using his Expansion power at ML 3 (if he has 3 or fewer HD) is considered to have spent 3 virtual pp on the power. This augments it so that the duration lasts longer. He cannot spend more real pp to augment the power because the power is already augmented to its maximum.
TelinArtho 11-09-05, 11:06 AM	Can a 1st level paladin read a scroll of Bless Weapon? (without using UMD) I think he can, but I just want to make sure.
Pittbull 11-09-05, 11:09 AM	Since he has no casterlevel yet, not even CL 0, he's not able to use scrolls. When he gets his first spellslot (even the 0), he's allowed to use the scrolls.
SauroGrenom 11-09-05, 11:21 AM	NiQil, I do these one at a time, and if there continues to be any question, ask ad I'll try to address them. A couple of questions...and I think these might have come up before, but I couldn't find anything on em anywhere. 1) Can psi-like abilities be augmented? The text explaining psi-like abilities says that when using them, the user does not have to pay an PP cost for them initially, but that otherwise they act like normal powers of the same name, which would lead me to believe that they can if the power says it can. Technically they are augmented all the time and augmented to the maximum possable at there ML with no pp cost to the manifester. The ML of the Psi-Like ability determines how many PP can be spent and the power is manifest as if all those pp were spent. If there are options as to how the power can be augmented, then there is a grey area. Let's take a psiwarrior at ML6 manifesting expansion. At this point a psiwarrior manifesting the power gets a choice of how to augment a power, he can either grow two sizes or grow one size and have a longer duration. For psi-like abilities this choice is unclear. For example if your duergar is ML6, then he has enough PP to either increase his size two categories for 6rounds or increase his size one category for 6minutes with 4 extra PP. If he was ML8 then he can increase his size two categories for 8minutes. The question reamins that at ML6 or ML7 what is the durration of the power. Does the Duergar have a choice in whether he wants to be larger or have the effect last longer? I would say that the duergar has the choice, but that is simply an opinon not supported by anything in the SRD. 2) If a race, such as elan or duergar, gets power points as a racial trait, but does not have levels in a manifester class, are they still able to use those power points to augment any psi-like abilities they may have (assuming the answer to 1 is yes)? No, the maximum number of PP possable to spend on any power is equal to the ML the power is manifest at, and the max is already provided by the psi-like ability anyway. There is simply no more room for extra pp unless the creature increases the ML of the power. But then the extra pp are provided automatically by the psi-like ability. No augmentation can excede the ML limit without using the overchannel feat that I would argue cannot be used in combination with a psi-like ability.
Mal-2 11-09-05, 11:21 AM	Since he has no casterlevel yet, not even CL 0, he's not able to use scrolls. When he gets his first spellslot (even the 0), he's allowed to use the scrolls. I don't see where having a caster level is a requirement for using a scroll. Here's what I see from the SRD (not the full quotes, bucause it's long. I encourage you to check for yourself that I didn't miss something important): Decipher the Writing The writing on a scroll must be deciphered before a character can use it or know exactly what spell it contains. This requires a read magic spell or a successful Spellcraft check (DC 20 + spell level). ... Activate the Spell To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements. * The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.) * The user must have the spell on his or her class list. * The user must have the requisite ability score. If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps, below). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers. So, our 3rd level paladin needs enough spellcraft to read the scroll. It must be a divine scroll. It must be a spell on the paladin spell list. The paladin must have a Wisdom greater than or equal to 10 + Spell Level. The paladin must make a Caster level check with a DC of the Caster Level of the scroll. I'd always assumed that paladins and rangers couldn't read scrolls until they could cast spells, but I don't see any support for that assumption in the SRD, expect maybe the question of how they make a caster level check when they don't have a caster level yet.
Macbrea 11-09-05, 11:23 AM	Spell Trigger suggests that Rangers and Paladins are considered casters even before they get spells available to them. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) This would mean that a paladin could attempt to cast a divine spell from a divine scroll if it within his list. Though, he would have to make a caster level check for mishap each time he attempted it. Assuming he had managed to decipher script before hand.
SauroGrenom 11-09-05, 11:29 AM	Since he has no casterlevel yet, not even CL 0, he's not able to use scrolls. When he gets his first spellslot (even the 0), he's allowed to use the scrolls. Realy, I was under the impression that rangers and paladins were able to use scrolls and wands even at low levels. This is the passage from the SRD: To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements. • The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.) • The user must have the spell on his or her class list. • The user must have the requisite ability score. If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps, below). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers. There is no requirement for the ability to cast spells. I would think that the CL of the paladin/ranger would be zero for this purpose and as such the CL check may be hard, but they can try to cast the spell and perhaps succeed. The SRD specifically says that low level paladins can use wands: Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. I would say that the paladin can also use a scroll. CL1 is a requirement for many things, but is not a requirement for using a spell completion item, so I say the paladin can use the scroll.
Pittbull 11-09-05, 11:31 AM	Perhaps it's written in the FAQ, but I know, it's been an old ruling in the CoCo. Having no spellslots in his first levels makes a paladin or a ranger a non-caster. As your quote says, only spellcaster (arcane/divine) may activate a scroll: Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. So, if you aren't a caster, you have not casterlevel, therefor, you can't activate scrolls.
SauroGrenom 11-09-05, 11:53 AM	So how does one handle it if you have to many chracters and you only want to fight with two of them, but the third can use skills to make some money durring the week. How do I link that on the character sheet? I'm going to have Rebreg sit this one out, and I'm thinking of retireing him. He has been on a winning streak (5wins in a row!), but I see some errors with the build that are impossable to just edit away. I was sort of hoping to get him up to ECL7 so that he can retire to the graveyard, but that would be months away.
TelinArtho 11-09-05, 11:56 AM	You can only use "Free Activities" such as making money, training, etc when the character is active. If the third character is not participating in the arena, going on a quest etc, he cannot earn money from his skills.
Mal-2 11-09-05, 12:19 PM	So, if you aren't a caster, you have not casterlevel, therefor, you can't activate scrolls. Are the WotC Rules of the Game articles in effect here as rules? If so, the following quote is of interest to this discussion. To use a spell completion item safely, you must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If you can't already cast the spell, there's a chance you'll make a mistake, as noted on page 238 of the Dungeon Master's Guide. To activate a spell trigger item with an arcane spell on it, you must have levels in a class able to cast arcane spells. Likewise, to activate a spell trigger item with a divine spell on it, you must have levels in a class able to cast divine spells. If you don't have enough levels in the class to cast any spells yet, you can still try to use a spell trigger item, but your effective caster level for activating the spell is 0. Edit: WTF. This is in the section about Spell Completion items, and scrolls in particular, but they keep saying Spell Trigger. I now have no clue whether a ranger or paladin can use scrolls before 4th.
NiQil 11-09-05, 12:22 PM	Are the WotC Rules of the Game articles in effect here as rules? If so, the following quote is of interest to this discussion. Yes, they are in effect here.....and your quote effectively answers the question. :)
King Uther 11-09-05, 12:25 PM	Yeah, Paladins and Rangers can cast scrolls with their CL of 0.
Myrridin 11-09-05, 03:25 PM	@Telin: I saw that you want someone to run a quest for a +1 Long spear, dragons bane. I can't start this week, but I could start it next Wednesday, if you wanted to wait that long. I'd be more than willing to run that.
TelinArtho 11-09-05, 03:32 PM	He's not ready for the quest this week anyway - so sure. I haven't decided yet if he's going to quest for the full item or if he's going to craft it and have it upgraded as a reward for the quest. I'll decide by the time Daeren's fight is done this week. ECL6-7 quest (2 ECL6, 1 ECL7) Questgoal: Longspear +1 of Dragon's Bane (Spear of Fangs) The character is Daeren Stronghammer (Dwarven Barbarian 3/Transmuter 3) - he will advance after this week though to Barb 4. Feel free to PM me if you have anymore questions about the quest or the character.
Vathelokai 11-09-05, 04:25 PM	Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can’t already cast the spell, there’s a chance he’ll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.If your CL is 0, then you cannot use scrolls. Spell trigger items, like wands, can be used if the spell is on the spell list. So a 1st lv. ranger cannot use scrolls, but can use every other magic item that replicates a spell from their list.
NiQil 11-09-05, 04:29 PM	If your CL is 0, then you cannot use scrolls. Spell trigger items, like wands, can be used if the spell is on the spell list. So a 1st lv. ranger cannot use scrolls, but can use every other magic item that replicates a spell from their list. Except the Rules of the Game article that was referenced specifically says that they can, with CL 0. Edit: Read that wrong....got my spell trigger and spell completion items reversed.
Mal-2 11-09-05, 04:29 PM	If your CL is 0, then you cannot use scrolls. Your quote from the SRD does not support this statement. The rules of the game article seems to say that CL 0 rangers or paladins can use scrolls, but is somewhat unclear due to what appears to be a copy and paste error regarding spell trigger vs spell completion. The Rules of the Game Article is here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041116a) if you want to take a look at what I'm talking about.
NiQil 11-09-05, 04:32 PM	Ack...getting my posts all kinds of messed up. Disregard the above post. For spell trigger items, the caster level is 0. This would be wands, etc. We already knew this....it just has to be on their spell list. For spell completion items, a caster level check is required. This would be scrolls.
Vathelokai 11-09-05, 04:42 PM	double post
Vathelokai 11-09-05, 04:42 PM	Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The item user must complete the spell's verbal and somatic components (if it has any), but does not need any material, focus, or XP components the spell might have. (The character who scribed the scroll provided those.) To use a spell completion item safely, you must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If you can't already cast the spell, there's a chance you'll make a mistake, as noted on page 238 of the Dungeon Master's Guide. To activate a spell trigger item with an arcane spell on it, you must have levels in a class able to cast arcane spells. Likewise, to activate a spell trigger item with a divine spell on it, you must have levels in a class able to cast divine spells. If you don't have enough levels in the class to cast any spells yet, you can still try to use a spell trigger item, but your effective caster level for activating the spell is 0. If a scroll has a caster level higher than your own, you have to make a Spellcraft check (DC = 1 + the scroll's caster level) to activate the scroll. If you fail the check, you don't activate the scroll and the scroll isn't used up. Activating a spell completion item usually is a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does. If the spell contained in a spell completion item has a casting time other than 1 standard action, that is its activation time. For example, a scroll containing a summon monster I spell has an activation time of 1 round because that's the casting time for the spell. The rules don't say so (probably because it's an obvious point), but you must be able to see a scroll to read it. If you're blinded, you can't activate a scroll, and you also cannot do so if darkness, fog, or some other condition keeps you from seeing the scroll. Darkvision lets you see in nonmagical darkness, and that allows you to read scrolls in nonmagical darkness. Whenever you activate a scroll, you still need to make any Concentration checks you'd normally need to make to cast a spell, and the spell on the scroll is wasted if you fail the check. For example, if you're damaged while activating a scroll, you must make Concentration check to cast the spell. You can activate a spell completion item defensively; the required Concentration check DC is the same as the DC to cast the spell. If you fail the check, the spell is wasted. Spell completion items are also subject to arcane spell failure if you use them while armored. If you fail an arcane spell failure roll while using a spell completion item, the spell is wasted. You cant activate a spell completion item if the spell stored in the item isnt on your class spell list or if your ability scores would not allow you to cast the stored spell. For example, a single-classed bard cannot cast a fireball spell from a scroll, because fireball isnt on the bard spell list (see the entry on spell trigger items for a discussion of class spell lists). Likewise, a wizard with an Intelligence score of 12 could not cast a fireball spell from a scroll because a wizard needs an Intelligence score of at least 13 to cast a 3rd-level spell. I'm not sure what passage you are refering to. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps, below). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers.Perhaps I spoke too strongly. A first level ranger needs to make a caster level check to use the scroll. I've been told in the past , here at COCO, that you cannot make a caster level check without a caster level. So that is why I say no.
Mal-2 11-09-05, 04:49 PM	I'm not sure what passage you are refering to. Perhaps I spoke too strongly. A first level ranger needs to make a caster level check to use the scroll. I've been told in the past , here at COCO, that you cannot make a caster level check without a caster level. So that is why I say no. The part of that quote that I found confusing was this one: "If you don't have enough levels in the class to cast any spells yet, you can still try to use a spell trigger item, but your effective caster level for activating the spell is 0." This whole section is talking about scrolls (spell completion items), but suddenly switches to talking about spell trigger items. As far as I can tell, that's an error in the article, and they're trying to say that low level rangers and paladins can read scrolls, but must make a caster level check (using a caster level of 0).
Emrys Donovan 11-09-05, 04:52 PM	1. His Str mod should be only -1, and his Dex bonus only +4. 2. You have written your AC line twice. You should strike out everything after the first [Shield of Faith +2] 3. He suffers a -2 penalty on the composite longbow as long as his Str is below 10. You can give up 10' of this and pick up a normal longbow to fix that. 4. You suffer a -1 penalty on damage with all of your weapons. This is also currently being debated about whether it applies to composite longbows, but I think it will show that it does. 5. You're now a high elf instead of a wild elf, but your special abilities are marked as a wild elf's (not that there is a difference). 6. I also thought that Track was a 1st level ranger ability, not a second (although it doens't really matter). 7. You cannot use the following skills because you have no ranks in them and thus they should be removed: Appraise, Autohypnosis, Decipher Script, Disable Device, all Knowledges, Open Lock, Psi Craft, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft, Survival, Tumble, Use Magic Device. 8. Cat's Grace, Cure Mod Wounds, and Eagle's Splendor each have a CL of 3 when in potion form. 9. You need at least a +6 Use Psionic Device modifier to address your powerstones. Thus you cannot address them. You also are unable to activate them blindly because of your low score, and if you can't address them, you also cannot use the Activate Powerstone use of UPD. Besides, you're incredibly unlikely to activate them in the heat of battle. Thus, I suggest getting some tattoos and to consider UMD instead (which gets you more ranks and is more useful in general anyway). 1. Fixed. 2. Second AC is when Vlad uses his shield. 3./4. There, Str mod is +1 so everything there is fixed 5. Fixed. 6. Nope, Lvl 1 Ranger ability. 7. Actually, you can use skills you have no ranks in unless they are skills which you must be trained in, such as Disable Device and the Knowledge skills. Removed "Trained Only" skills 8. Ok, thanks. 9. Ok, how much would Tattoos of Skate and Chameleon cost? 50? 100?
Vathelokai 11-09-05, 05:16 PM	The part of that quote that I found confusing was this one: "If you don't have enough levels in the class to cast any spells yet, you can still try to use a spell trigger item, but your effective caster level for activating the spell is 0." This whole section is talking about scrolls (spell completion items), but suddenly switches to talking about spell trigger items. As far as I can tell, that's an error in the article, and they're trying to say that low level rangers and paladins can read scrolls, but must make a caster level check (using a caster level of 0). Well, the passage is obviously in error. But unless Skip posts a retraction, it is impossible to tell what exactly the mistake was. I did a thorough search, and 'caster level check' is only described as (1d20+CL); cannot take 10 or 20 on this check. It dosn't say anywhere in the SRD if you actually have to have a caster level to make the check. This looks like something the elders might want to pick up.
Snommelp 11-09-05, 05:52 PM	Have you guys read the news this week? It's a really good issue of Gladius Arena Weekly; all three of my gladiators were considered news-worthy! :D And Grik even got in there twice. And I was involved in three other things that were considered news-worthy... jeeze, I'm a catalyst, aren't I?
One_Winged_Angel 11-09-05, 06:28 PM	What is the policy of enchanting an item further if the addition is related. EX: Billy Bob Joe wants to enchant his +1 flaming club and make it a +1 flaming burst stick of death (aka club). Do you simply buy the extra enhancement bonus or do you refund the initial to buy the second or do you upgrade the enchantment (i.e. disenchant the first and re-enchant it)?
Snommelp 11-09-05, 06:45 PM	What is the policy of enchanting an item further if the addition is related. EX: Billy Bob Joe wants to enchant his +1 flaming club and make it a +1 flaming burst stick of death (aka club). Do you simply buy the extra enhancement bonus or do you refund the initial to buy the second or do you upgrade the enchantment (i.e. disenchant the first and re-enchant it)? You just buy the new the enchantment. The NPC wizards can enchant much faster for the same rate, so you don't have to sit out, either.
Tellish_of_Ket 11-09-05, 06:58 PM	Have you guys read the news this week? It's a really good issue of Gladius Arena Weekly; all three of my gladiators were considered news-worthy! :D And Grik even got in there twice. And I was involved in three other things that were considered news-worthy... jeeze, I'm a catalyst, aren't I? Ya...and Harv gets his head chopped off. LOL roflmao! -ToK
Sindorin 11-09-05, 07:39 PM	Yeah, what's so weird about it all is that my characters never seem to make it into the weekly papers... though, given the nature of the accounts of deeds, I suppose that this may be a good thing.
Macbrea 11-09-05, 07:43 PM	Got a silly question. Tower shields don't protect against magic missile do they?
Tellish_of_Ket 11-09-05, 08:42 PM	Got a silly question. Tower shields don't protect against magic missile do they? No. -ToK
Mind Rogue 11-09-05, 09:38 PM	Actually, if you claim the tower shield for cover, the MM can't hit you because you have total cover. Otherwise, it does squat.
One_Winged_Angel 11-09-05, 09:40 PM	Actually, if you claim the tower shield for cover, the MM can't hit you because you have total cover. Otherwise, it does squat. Except that the description of a tower shield specifically says that it does not help against targeted spells.
Malither76 11-09-05, 09:56 PM	yep one winged got this one, they can target the shield and you get hit cover does not work
Tellish_of_Ket 11-10-05, 02:34 AM	Actually, if you claim the tower shield for cover, the MM can't hit you because you have total cover. Otherwise, it does squat. This is incorrect. You will still get blasted by scorching rays, melf's acid, mm's, chill touch etc... Remember, the shield is still part of you, just like a normal shield would be only that you are afforded extra protection vs physical attacks. -ToK
Tellish_of_Ket 11-10-05, 05:22 AM	Can a lycanthropic dire badger barbarian rage twice? -ToK
Pittbull 11-10-05, 06:56 AM	Can a lycanthropic dire badger barbarian rage twice? -ToK Technically, this are two different types of rages. Both give unnamed boni, so they stack. Seems to be a loopwhole. ;) But I'm not sure!!
Usurpator 11-10-05, 07:11 AM	Can a lycanthropic dire badger barbarian rage twice? -ToK Sure they can. From the description both abilities are not equal. One lasts for 3+Con mod rounds and you are fatigued afterwards. They other lasts until the opponent dies and does not fatigue you afterwards. Different abilities.... Done some research in lycanthropic dire badgers as well, optimum result would be a 4 HD large lycanthropic dire badger lycanthrope (+8 Str, +4 Con, extra feat, +1 BAB, +1 Fort/Ref). But I have no idea if advanced versions of creatures are allowed when using the lycanthropy, so I am assuming they are not. Besides, because the Dire Badger ability forces you to claw and bite, it is also somewhat of a liability. But still, +20 Str, +5 Dex, +20 Con to your base abilities when in a double rage is tempting....
Tellish_of_Ket 11-10-05, 07:24 AM	Besides, because the Dire Badger ability forces you to claw and bite, it is also somewhat of a liability. But still, +20 Str, +5 Dex, +20 Con to your base abilities when in a double rage is tempting.... Liability? Large Humanoid (Shapechanger), drinks enlarge person pot, making them huge, has the INA (claw) feat with permanented greater magic fang +5...tell me again how this is limiting? This dude easily gets 40+ str with just a few buffs. -ToK
Pittbull 11-10-05, 08:50 AM	Don't forget his burrow-ability, this is nice too! But he'll cost some credits: 3HD Animal+3 Lyc+ 1HD humanoid= ECL7 BTW, the dire-badger is medium or is allowed to take an advanced one? You might take an orc as humanoid race, that increases the strength too.
Usurpator 11-10-05, 08:51 AM	Liability? Large Humanoid (Shapechanger), drinks enlarge person pot, making them huge, has the INA (claw) feat with permanented greater magic fang +5...tell me again how this is limiting? This dude easily gets 40+ str with just a few buffs. -ToK If you get hit before your buffs, you will be forced to run around the arena stupidly trying to claw your opponent (or whatever attacked you), regardless of what he/she does. A simple summoned swarm and you will be clawing like mad at the swarm until you die.... That's what I meant by liability.
Usurpator 11-10-05, 08:55 AM	Don't forget his burrow-ability, this is nice too! But he'll cost some credits: 3HD Animal+3 Lyc+ 1HD humanoid= ECL7 BTW, the dire-badger is medium or is allowed to take an advanced one? You might take an orc as humanoid race, that increases the strength too. The reason I looked at the Dire Badger is because you don't need to be a natural lycanthrope, afflicted should work fine too. You're planning to pound your opponents in badger form anyway, so the extra +1 ECL for just DR 10/silver instead of 5/silver is not worth it (and saves credits too). I was also working under the assumption that you cannot take advanced versions of animals / dire animals. A non-advanced dire badger lycanthrope was not interesting enough, at least, not as interesting as a leopard.
Huan 11-10-05, 09:25 AM	Huh, funny everyone should talk about a were-Dire Badger, because I already have one sitting around, waiting for more people to accumulate into the ECL 7 league. They are cool, and even if someone else wants to play one, that's fine (I'll still play mine). We can have a Were-Dire-Badger fight!
Ribking 11-10-05, 10:00 AM	I don't know if this has ever been an issue or not....I'm just gonna throw it out there. Is there any gambling in the city of Gladius? I would imagine a city themed around an arena would likely boost its economy though some sort of legalized wager system. Could be a way for some gladiators to make extra money....betting on longshots and whatnot. Is there anyone involved with the arena capable of overseeing such a thing?
TelinArtho 11-10-05, 10:10 AM	There's a lot of talk about it - but the reality is two-fold: 1. It makes it very difficult to keep track of things. Someone would have to come up with the odds - and a system for tracking what the odds should be. 2. More importantly, it opens the door for "throwing" fights - so that a longshot could pay off big. The only way betting on the fights would work is if there was no gain whatsoever from the fights, and then - what would be the point?
SoulLord 11-10-05, 10:31 AM	perhaps profession gambler?
Macbrea 11-10-05, 11:07 AM	Hey, I have a question. How is the exp and gold awarded in an ALL vs ALL fight?
Ribking 11-10-05, 11:13 AM	There's a lot of talk about it - but the reality is two-fold: 1. It makes it very difficult to keep track of things. Someone would have to come up with the odds - and a system for tracking what the odds should be. 2. More importantly, it opens the door for "throwing" fights - so that a longshot could pay off big. The only way betting on the fights would work is if there was no gain whatsoever from the fights, and then - what would be the point?Yeah I thought of the throwing fights thing too. Perhaps a negative credit penalty? I dunno...I just think it's worth exploring. You said there's a lot of talk about it. Could you point me to where? I'd like to join a conversation about it.
TelinArtho 11-10-05, 11:16 AM	Well, it was every once in a while in the previous tavern thread and occasionally in a FotW thread - but it was always quickly closed down by Cat - and I don't blame him. It is a headache that can get out of hand very quickly. My suggestion, if you want it - introduce it as a non-monetary thing in the guild threads and have "friendly" wagers.
TelinArtho 11-10-05, 11:18 AM	Hey, I have a question. How is the exp and gold awarded in an ALL vs ALL fight? Not sure, but it is based on the order of last man standing: Winner (3 (if 4 players) or 2x (if 3 players) winner awards) 2nd Winner (2 (if 4 players) or 1x (if 3 players) winner awards) (2nd Loser) (1x Winner awards) Loser (1x Loser awards) This is how I'm going to reward my fight if it isn't clarified by that time. I'm sending a PM to Cat to clear up the matter presently.
Tellish_of_Ket 11-10-05, 12:41 PM	If you get hit before your buffs, you will be forced to run around the arena stupidly trying to claw your opponent (or whatever attacked you), regardless of what he/she does. A simple summoned swarm and you will be clawing like mad at the swarm until you die.... That's what I meant by liability. Well, ya, but on round 1, you burrow. Or at least that's the plan. Then you buff, and burrow around the arena looking for your opponent. As for the gambling, if you wanna make money gambling on fights, the best suggestion would be to take ranks in Profession: Gambling and make money every week. That way you NEVER lose. lol. -ToK
Mind Rogue 11-10-05, 01:04 PM	Well, a lot of places that have bets placed on sporting matches have rules that say that you can't bet on your own matches, and some even go so far as to say that contestants can't bet on any matches, even the ones they don't partake in. I could definitely see Gladius as being one of those places. Thus, non-gladiators could bet on the match, but since none of us have any of those, it doesn't matter. An option might be to allow players to bet credits against each other rather than individual gladiators betting gold. For most matches, going 1:1 credit would be pretty fair, but other betting ratios might be agreed by both players based on the rankings of the gladiators involved. Another suitable bet might be in a challenge, the looser pays the credit for the winner. Of course, since only Cat can change credits, this puts more work onto him.
Macbrea 11-10-05, 01:27 PM	Would this be the correct write-up for this custom item? Headband of Reduction This device is a light cord with a small gem set so that it rests upon the forehead of the wearer. The headband places the effects of Reduce Person on the character while worn. Prequisites: Faint transmutation; CL 1st; Craft Wondrous Item, Reduce person; Price 4,000 gp 15o Note: Pricing is 1st level spell x 1 CL x 2000 x 2 (because duration is normally minutes)
TelinArtho 11-10-05, 02:09 PM	If it was - I'd get one for Enlarge right away... Sorry - but since reduce has other effects than just the size change (AC and hit modifiers, etc) - this would have a greater cost than just 4000gp. Of course, if Cat approves, I guess it wouldn't. In my campaign though - this simply wouldn't be allowed.
Macbrea 11-10-05, 02:13 PM	We refigured it out.. It comes out somewhere around 14,750 gold when you stack all bonuses you get for reduce person and ignore all penalties. I think i found a better way for Mektos to be tiny all the time.
NiQil 11-10-05, 02:15 PM	Question about Figurines of Wondrous Creatures Some of these figurines (such as the golden lions) can be used once per day. Others have a limit greater than that, such as once every month or once every two weeks. What is the stance here on using figurines that have use limits greater than once per week? Can we just not use them? Do they all get modified to be able to be used each week?
TelinArtho 11-10-05, 02:25 PM	Grand Hall Map (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7719542&postcount=87) for All vs All maps has been colored and mapped. Let me know if there are any problems with it. /d
Pitlords 11-10-05, 02:31 PM	Thanks a lot Telin. I've given you 2° for it.
Macbrea 11-10-05, 02:59 PM	I guess it's just best to ask it here. Ok, so if Mektos buys a Scroll of Permancy (CL 9) and chooses to cast Reduce Person (CL 1) on himself. Would the caster level check for a Dispell magic versus his Permanent Reduce Person spell be as for a CL 9? Or Would it be either CL1 for the reduce person or CL 9 for the permanency?
MysticMonk2005 11-10-05, 03:00 PM	Question about Figurines of Wondrous Creatures Some of these figurines (such as the golden lions) can be used once per day. Others have a limit greater than that, such as once every month or once every two weeks. What is the stance here on using figurines that have use limits greater than once per week? Can we just not use them? Do they all get modified to be able to be used each week? Well my guess would be that since we have 'real time' here that you will have to wait the said time before using it again. But I'm also not a ruleaholic.
TelinArtho 11-10-05, 03:05 PM	I guess it's just best to ask it here. Ok, so if Mektos buys a Scroll of Permancy (CL 9) and chooses to cast Reduce Person (CL 1) on himself. Would the caster level check for a Dispell magic versus his Permanent Reduce Person spell be as for a CL 9? Or Would it be either CL1 for the reduce person or CL 9 for the permanency? Right - either or both could be dispelled and the effect would be removed. Just as a note - it might be cheaper to have NPC services cast the permanency rather than have yourself cast it with the scroll (and has no chance of failure that way - so you don't have to do it in battle...)
Macbrea 11-10-05, 03:12 PM	Are you sure on that if you cast the spell yourself? Level: Sor/Wiz 5 Components: V, S, XP Casting Time: 2 rounds Range: See text Target, Effect, or Area: See text Duration: Permanent; see text Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No This spell makes certain other spells permanent. Depending on the spell, you must be of a minimum caster level and must expend a number of XP. You can make the following spells permanent in regard to yourself. {snipped table of personal only effects} You cast the desired spell and then follow it with the permanency spell. You cannot cast these spells on other creatures. This application of permanency can be dispelled only by a caster of higher level than you were when you cast the spell. In addition to personal use, permanency can be used to make the following spells permanent on yourself, another creature, or an object (as appropriate). Spell Minimum Caster Level XP Cost Reduce person 9th 500 XP Additionally, the following spells can be cast upon objects or areas only and rendered permanent. {snipped table of object items} Spells cast on other creatures, objects, or locations (not on you) are vulnerable to dispel magic as normal. XP Cost See tables above.
Tellish_of_Ket 11-10-05, 03:54 PM	I think i found a better way for Mektos to be tiny all the time. NPC spellcasting, permanency. 20th level NPC caster Reduce: 20*10=200gp 20th level NPC caster Perman: 20*50=1000gp exp cost in terms of gold piec: 500*5=2500gp Grand Total: 3700 gp -ToK
TelinArtho 11-10-05, 03:56 PM	at 20th level though - there's a lot more credits involved.
NiQil 11-10-05, 03:59 PM	at 20th level though - there's a lot more credits involved. I don't think there are *any credits involved, unless reduce person is one that can not normall be made permanent with a permanency spell.
Tellish_of_Ket 11-10-05, 03:59 PM	Question about Figurines of Wondrous Creatures Some of these figurines (such as the golden lions) can be used once per day. Others have a limit greater than that, such as once every month or once every two weeks. What is the stance here on using figurines that have use limits greater than once per week? Can we just not use them? Do they all get modified to be able to be used each week? Time is on a 1:1 ratio, but generally all such things have always been that you can use them once in your fights. But then again, i had the idea of making a magic item useable only once every million years (if you saw my ridiculousness on that) giving me continual effect shapechange (or any other uber spell) for the low cost of 1cp. Since when it gets activated once, it's continually active. However, that being said, i would think you would have to track it's useage to be honest. Otherwise, we have people running around with 1cp magic items with the above aforementioned, and worse. If it's 2/month, then you can only use it for two fights in a Gladius month. -ToK
NiQil 11-10-05, 04:07 PM	Time is on a 1:1 ratio, but generally all such things have always been that you can use them once in your fights. But then again, i had the idea of making a magic item useable only once every million years (if you saw my ridiculousness on that) giving me continual effect shapechange (or any other uber spell) for the low cost of 1cp. Since when it gets activated once, it's continually active. However, that being said, i would think you would have to track it's useage to be honest. Otherwise, we have people running around with 1cp magic items with the above aforementioned, and worse. If it's 2/month, then you can only use it for two fights in a Gladius month. -ToK After going back to reread all of them, they actually all have uses of no more than once per week....so all of them would work here. I think the closest one is the marble elephant, which can be used up to 4 times a month...which should equate to once a week here, I would assume. Granted...I doubt many would use them a lot...the cheapest one is the silver raven at 3800 gp.....but a character that had a bunch of those to use would be kinda fun to tinker with....no XP penalties for wondrous items. Let me go cruise into the arena on my marble elephant and have it and 2 golden lions and an obsidian steed attack someone LOL.
Macbrea 11-10-05, 04:08 PM	NPC spellcasting, permanency. 20th level NPC caster Reduce: 20*10=200gp 20th level NPC caster Perman: 20*50=1000gp exp cost in terms of gold piec: 500*5=2500gp Grand Total: 3700 gp -ToK This would also cost the 4th level character (by the time I got 3700 gps) a total of 32o.
Mal-2 11-10-05, 04:09 PM	I don't think there are *any credits involved, unless reduce person is one that can not normall be made permanent with a permanency spell. Here's what the Rules thread says: NPC Spellcasting: You may pay credits to get the right to make use of NPC Spellcasting Services that exceeds your limit. Normally, you can only buy a cast spell of up to your ECL. You have to pay 1° per CL above your ECL which you have to announce at the Gladius Blackmarket. So, for an ECL 3 character, that would cost 34° :mymy:
TelinArtho 11-10-05, 04:11 PM	EDIT - Looks like Mal-2 got the relevant info.
Tellish_of_Ket 11-10-05, 04:14 PM	Here's what the Rules thread says: So, for an ECL 3 character, that would cost 34° :mymy: how's an ECL 3 character gonna get 3700 gp? Maybe a 3rd level wizard with high int sells his spellbook right off the bat, but that is hardly worth it. lol By the time you are even in a position to afford it (comfortably) you are at least ecl 6, making it more affordable. -ToK
NiQil 11-10-05, 04:18 PM	Ah yes...I forgot about the whole ECL limit thing...
Macbrea 11-10-05, 04:18 PM	Scroll of permancy is already listed on the table for CL 9 at 10125 gps. So, assuming your fighting normally. I would guess you coudln't reach that amount of gold before 5th? So, your CL check would be a DC 10 with 5+d20. You can keep trying it over and over again until it goes off assuming he doesn't roll a 1 on the wisdom check whenever he fails. You are able to do it during any fight that you win. If your opponent goes to a - hps but isn't dieing you may pull out your scroll of permancy and keep attempting to use it the entire time he bleeds to death.
Tellish_of_Ket 11-10-05, 04:21 PM	Scroll of permancy is already listed on the table for CL 9 at 10125 gps. So, assuming your fighting normally. I would guess you coudln't reach that amount of gold before 5th? So, your CL check would be a DC 10 with 5+d20. You can keep trying it over and over again until it goes off assuming he doesn't roll a 1 on the wisdom check everytime he fails. You are able to do it during any fight that you win. If your opponent goes to a - hps but isn't dieing you may pull out your scroll of permancy and keep attempting to use it the entire time he bleeds to death. You're better off paying for NPC spellcasting. Pitlord two fights a week, ALWAYS include a map, keep only one or two characters active. That gives you +4 credits a week. In three months (assuming you win a lot and get to ECL 6), you'll have 48 credits. AMPLE needed for 20th level permanency. -ToK
Macbrea 11-10-05, 04:22 PM	Because you cast the permancy yourself on yourself. It isn't subject to normal dispel checks. It can only be dispelled by someone with CL 9 or higher. This means purchased scrolls have no real effect on it. It also, means in our leagues you wouldn't really have to worry about it until after your frozen. Hmmm.
Mal-2 11-10-05, 04:24 PM	how's an ECL 3 character gonna get 3700 gp? Maybe a 3rd level wizard with high int sells his spellbook right off the bat, but that is hardly worth it. lol Well, I just know the character Macbrea was talking about is currently ECL 3. As of yesterday, my ECL 3 character had 2000 gp in cash on him, though I spent it before pairings this week. Certainly an ECL 4 character could have that much money to throw around, though I would argue that it's not really a good investment.
Macbrea 11-10-05, 04:26 PM	Given both our statements together. It may be better to buy a scroll of reduce person CL 20 and Permancy CL 20. Cast them on yourself after a fight. There is a 5% chance that you will fry your brain but what the heck.
NiQil 11-10-05, 04:27 PM	Given both our statements together. It may be better to buy a scroll of reduce person CL 20 and Permancy CL 20. Cast them on yourself after a fight. There is a 5% chance that you will fry your brain but what the heck. :heehee
Tellish_of_Ket 11-10-05, 04:31 PM	Given both our statements together. It may be better to buy a scroll of reduce person CL 20 and Permancy CL 20. Cast them on yourself after a fight. There is a 5% chance that you will fry your brain but what the heck. It think it might already be. LOL j/k. Seriously, NPC spellcasting is WAY WAY WAY cheaper in gp, and the credit cost is the same. -ToK
Mal-2 11-10-05, 04:43 PM	Seriously, NPC spellcasting is WAY WAY WAY cheaper in gp, and the credit cost is the same. I agree. I think you're putting too much stock into the statement that it can only be dispelled by a higher level caster. If you hire a 20th level NPC to cast reduce + permanency, you can never be dispelled by Dispel Magic, because it requires a DC 31 dispel check (1d20 + caster level, maximum +10). Greater Dispel Magic is a worry, but it's a 6th level spell! You probably won't have to deal with it until ECL 12 or later. At that point, you should have a lot more resources. If you still think it's worth it at that point, then invest the 10,000+ gp to deal with it.
One_Winged_Angel 11-10-05, 05:04 PM	Looking to see if there would be a questlord willing to run a quest for Kage Nightwind (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5194986&postcount=133) and Pard Longfellow. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5195156&postcount=142) It's a frozen campaign, so no credit expenditure, but Mystic and I have been dying to get some RP with these two. Oh, and we want to show that fighters can hold their own. Kage has a couple new toys he wants to take for a spin and Mystic...well, I think he just is nostalgic about "the good old days." :P :rolleyes: :P
TelinArtho 11-10-05, 05:56 PM	I can do it - what level do you want? and is there some purpose behind it (a quest goal to work with...)? Send me the specifics via PM if you like.
KerlanRayne 11-11-05, 05:00 AM	Hey, I have a question. How is the exp and gold awarded in an ALL vs ALL fight?Not sure, but it is based on the order of last man standing: Winner (3 (if 4 players) or 2x (if 3 players) winner awards) 2nd Winner (2 (if 4 players) or 1x (if 3 players) winner awards) (2nd Loser) (1x Winner awards) Loser (1x Loser awards) This is how I'm going to reward my fight if it isn't clarified by that time. I'm sending a PM to Cat to clear up the matter presently.I would do it like this for three fighters: 1st Place: 2x Winners Awards 2nd Place: 1x Winners Award, 1x Losers Award 3rd Place: 2x Loser Awards Makes sense to me. KerlanRayne
Maraxus 11-11-05, 05:29 AM	I would do it like this for three fighters: 1st Place: 2x Winners Awards 2nd Place: 1x Winners Award, 1x Losers Award 3rd Place: 2x Loser Awards Makes sense to me. KerlanRayne Loosing is loosing, no matter how many opponents were there. Also you are distributing twice as much rewards per person as in duels. I would think of something like 3rd place: Loser Award 2nd place: Winner*0.5 + Loser 1st place: Winner*1.5 Or at 4 Players: 4th place: Loser 3rd place: Winner*0.333 +Loser 2nd place: Winner*0.833 +Loser 1st place: Winner*1.8333 So, when somebody drops out, he get's a losers award and everybody else (that is still standing) get's an equal share of a winners part. Of cause any system that gives rewards simply for how long you stay alive suppords cowardish tactics. Maybe one should find a mix of simply counting kills and simply counting dying times. Like: When somebody drops he get's a losers award and everybody that attacked him (in some way) get's an equal share of one winners award. "Attack", could be a phisical attack or a harmful spell. Damage done or overcoming of saving throw is not necessary.
Vathelokai 11-11-05, 05:45 AM	You may pay 1° to get the right to buy magical projectile ammunition in stacks of 5 or 10 (both stacks have the same credit cost). This applies to arrows, bolts, and bullets. You may pay 2° to buy any number of ammunition. The ammunition cost applies normally. Normally, you can only buy stacks of 50. Note that there are special arrows (slaying, sleep) which do not follow this rule. Example: 10x +2 arrows of human bane, 5x +1 seeking bolt, 27x +3 coldiron frost bullet (2°).How do I go about figuring out the gp cost for stacks of 5 arrows? Do I take the total cost for a stack of 50 and divide it? Stacks of 5 +1 arrows ... 230.2gp +2 arrows ... 835gp +3 arrows ... 1,835gp +4 arrows ... 3,235gp +5 arrows ... 5,035gpWhat about custom types of ammo, like brilliant energy arrows? Do I just treat them as +4 arrows for pricing? Is there an extra credit cost?
TelinArtho 11-11-05, 08:32 AM	Yup - just calculate the cost and go from there. A brilliant energy arrow would be +5 at a minimum (+1, and then the brilliant energy add-on (+4)) Probably the most common will be the +1 Arrow/Bolt with Bane vs (Something)
Pitlords 11-11-05, 11:44 AM	Can you come over to the Council please? Emergency.
SoulLord 11-11-05, 12:10 PM	If you have exotic weapon proficiency bastard sword you can use a bastard sword in one hand now can you wield a large bastard sword two handed if you have the feat? with the -2 penalty for wielding a sword improperly sized for you?
TelinArtho 11-11-05, 12:14 PM	Yes, because the Bastard Sword is a One-handed weapon to a medium creature and yes you would need the exotic weapon proficiency to use it in this fashion. I guess this opens up the doors for Half-Giants using Huge Bastard Swords... but hey - to each his own I guess...
SoulLord 11-11-05, 12:24 PM	he he he so then for a mere -2 to hit a medium sized gladiator could get a large bastard sword dealing 2d8 damage Or for the half giants using huge bastard swords dealing 3d8 damage
TelinArtho 11-11-05, 12:32 PM	and then use expansion and get something with, what, 6d6 damage? or have it increase you by 2 sizes and make it even more...
SoulLord 11-11-05, 12:41 PM	well the bastard sword would be like Fine Diminutive Tiny Small Medium Large Huge Gargantuan Colossal Bastard Sword 1d3 1d4 1d6 1d8 1d10 2d8 3d8 4d8 6d8
Scribelords 11-11-05, 01:51 PM	As I am piecing together the World of Gladius map, I came up with a great idea on how to flesh it out better for us all. If you have a character you would like featured, as in mentioned within a certain location, then email me a town, forest, city, etc....that your character hails from. This will make the world not mine to make, but ours. My email is cancun_master@yahoo.com.
Mind Rogue 11-11-05, 01:52 PM	Let's not even consider collossal+ (which I like to call Titanic) bastard swords, which a psychic warrior half-giant with the exotic weapon proficiency and an augmented expansion power could theoretically do. With the strength score that's likely to go along with it, it will be very painful. As it is, [Ma] bastard sword +6 melee 4d8 +9 for a half-gaint psychic warrior (3) with expansion and maximum strength. Then you start throwing in things like offensive precognition and weapon focus to actually give yourself a decent chance of hitting. Add Recklass offense, Psionic Weapon, and Deep Impact at some point, and things start to get scary. Hmmm. Half-gaint psychic warrior (3) would only cost me 4 credits to give him Weapon Focus, Exotic Weapon Prof, Psionic Weapon, and Deep Impact, and it would cause a scary +7 melee touch 4d8+9/19+/x2 for 13-41 [avg 27] or +7 melee for 4d8 +9 plus 2d6/19+/x2 for 15-53 [avg 34]. I'd need a +2 Wis to get the requisite 7pp in order to be able to use 3 in the arena to augment Expansion, then I'd also want a powerstone of precog to increase th to hit chance. For some reason, though, I don't think I'll be needing to grab a dwarven waraxe. I do think the minimum of 39 points of damage on one of those would probably autokill every single 4th level gladiator there is there.
Mal-2 11-11-05, 02:06 PM	Hmmm. Half-gaint psychic warrior (3) would only cost me 4 credits to give him Weapon Focus, Exotic Weapon Prof, Psionic Weapon, and Deep Impact Unless you can spend credits to get feats you normally don't qualify for, you wouldn't be able to get Deep Impact until PsyWar 7 (ECL 8 half giant) for the +5 BAB requirement.
Mind Rogue 11-11-05, 02:30 PM	Unless you can spend credits to get feats you normally don't qualify for, you wouldn't be able to get Deep Impact until PsyWar 7 (ECL 8 half giant) for the +5 BAB requirement. Good point. This makes Recklass offense a better choice, but now I still have 3 feats that need BaB +1, and only 2 feats above second level. I could drop using a bastard sword and just use a greatsword, but I still would need a different feat. Alternatively, starting with a level of fighter or barbarian would get the needed BaB, but that creates the problem of not being able to augment expansion unless I wanted to shell out 4 more credits. But another +2 to hit and +3 to damage might make up for that (from rage). Now I'm starting to scare myself.
Mal-2 11-11-05, 02:37 PM	I'm not convinced that wielding an oversized weapon is an optimal damage increase. You're trading a -2 to-hit for +3.5 average damage (assuming you're scaling 2d8 to 3d8 for a Huge bastard sword here). Why not take power attack instead? That lets you take -2 to-hit for +4 damage (with a two handed weapon). It's an extra feat, but also allows you to control the tradeoff. Going up a against a foe with a high AC? Drop the power attack. Fighting a foe with low AC? Pump power attack all the way up to your BAB. In any case, I don't think it's that scary.
Macbrea 11-11-05, 02:38 PM	If your looking for a weird weapon for the half giant to wield. Watch the following: Enlarged Half-giant wielding an Gargantuan heavy repeating crossbow. Would be -6 to hit with it because he would have to wield it like a 1 handed crossbow in two hands. He would have to have a second individual to take an action to reload it between shots. The damage would be 4d8. As that is technically larger then a ballista (huge crossbow), one could argue that deflect arrow feat will not work against the bolts from it.
Tellish_of_Ket 11-11-05, 04:11 PM	If your looking for a weird weapon for the half giant to wield. Watch the following: Enlarged Half-giant wielding an Gargantuan heavy repeating crossbow. Would be -6 to hit with it because he would have to wield it like a 1 handed crossbow in two hands. He would have to have a second individual to take an action to reload it between shots. The damage would be 4d8. As that is technically larger then a ballista (huge crossbow), one could argue that deflect arrow feat will not work against the bolts from it. or an expanded mutant sahuagin weilding four such weapons. lol -ToK
TelinArtho 11-11-05, 04:14 PM	Eh - I still like my idea of wielding 4 javelins of lightning and throwing them all at one opponent in a round... expensive - but VERY effective (except against those bastards with immunity to electricity...)
Tellish_of_Ket 11-11-05, 04:15 PM	I'm not convinced that wielding an oversized weapon is an optimal damage increase. You're trading a -2 to-hit for +3.5 average damage (assuming you're scaling 2d8 to 3d8 for a Huge bastard sword here). Why not take power attack instead? That lets you take -2 to-hit for +4 damage (with a two handed weapon). It's an extra feat, but also allows you to control the tradeoff. Going up a against a foe with a high AC? Drop the power attack. Fighting a foe with low AC? Pump power attack all the way up to your BAB. In any case, I don't think it's that scary. That makes a tremendous amount of sense. And hence why Krunch will never use oversided weapons. PA is more efficient for him. His dmg can be more tailored vs his opponents. The only time it would be worth considering is when he has +20 to attack...oh wait..he can get +21 now :P...ok, i guess i mean with less time buffing, like maybe one or two max rounds of buffing. Cuz then he'd have an oversized, enlarged person, improved crit falchion with full PA. Ouch...that's gonna sting. -ToK
Luni 11-11-05, 04:43 PM	For some reason, though, I don't think I'll be needing to grab a dwarven waraxe. I do think the minimum of 39 points of damage on one of those would probably autokill every single 4th level gladiator there is there. Ashhûr is level 4, and he can easily get his hit points up to 65. Autokill most, but not all.
King Uther 11-11-05, 04:45 PM	A sahuagin mutant without those oversized weapons would still defeat an oversized warrior. Why? It's called Mounted Feats+Diving Charge+4lances+Psionic Lion's charge. 6 attacks for 4d8+(4x[1.5xSTR]) damage each. With only an 18STR, at 6th level this build can take 16d8+96 damage, unbuffed and unoptimized, assuming you had a flying mount.
King Uther 11-11-05, 04:48 PM	My EL 3 character can take 1d8+3+11d6 damage in 1 attack in the 1st round of combat. That's an average damage of 46 vs a very likely flat-footed opponent.
Kaigan 11-11-05, 05:28 PM	Hey all, I'm coming back. I've sort things out, and prioritized a few other things. Midterms are finally over, and I have a small break till finals. I'll have two new characters up, and might even start pitlording. Has anything new been implemented? Kaigan
TheMagister 11-11-05, 07:09 PM	Greeting fellow bloody arena battle sophisticants! I'm back from my time off, and glad to be back. See you around Gladius! TM
Tellish_of_Ket 11-11-05, 08:12 PM	My EL 3 character can take 1d8+3+11d6 damage in 1 attack in the 1st round of combat. That's an average damage of 46 vs a very likely flat-footed opponent. I think your calculations might be wrong. When diving, you don't get both bonues (dive and charge with lance). Only one. On a dive, it's on the flyer, and on a lance-charge it's only the rider on a mount. -ToK
TheMagister 11-11-05, 08:48 PM	Tell me that the these two effects that increase size don't stack, even though they're from different sources: Add shield spikes to a light shield + add the bashing enchantment to a light shield. 1d3 -> 1d4 -> 1d6 -> 1d8 TM
Tellish_of_Ket 11-11-05, 11:34 PM	Curiousity: Can we take Epic feats for which we qualify at pre-epic levels? LEGENDARY WRESTLER [EPIC] Prerequisite: Str 21, Dex 21, Improved Unarmed Strike, Escape Artist 15 ranks. Benefit: The character gains a +10 bonus on all grapple checks. This can be easily qualified for at 12th level. -ToK
TelinArtho 11-11-05, 11:37 PM	Nope - because you do not qualify for the feat until you are epic level by definition of the feat.
Tellish_of_Ket 11-11-05, 11:40 PM	Nope - because you do not qualify for the feat until you are epic level by definition of the feat. Is Zen Archery in the SRD somewhere? I couldn't find it, but just wanted to make sure i didn't miss it. -ToK
TelinArtho 11-12-05, 12:11 AM	I'm sure I haven't seen it.
NiQil 11-12-05, 12:12 AM	Is Zen Archery in the SRD somewhere? I couldn't find it, but just wanted to make sure i didn't miss it. -ToK No....that feat is printed in one of the Complete books I believe....I want to say Adventurer or Warrior....I know it's not in Divine because that's the only one I have handy and I just looked.
Luni 11-12-05, 12:36 AM	Is Zen Archery in the SRD somewhere? I couldn't find it, but just wanted to make sure i didn't miss it. -ToK It is in the Complete Warrior. Thank goodness it isn't in the SRD. Everyone wants to play a cleric archer with that feat.
King Uther 11-12-05, 12:52 AM	@ToK You quoted the wrong damage passage. That damage isn't from charging or diving. It's from an arrow. I suppose you might not get the diving damage. Even if you didn't, at 6th that's 4 attack for 3d8+18 each, and that's only with an 18 STR(a raging frenzied sahuagin could easily amass a 32 STR).
King Uther 11-12-05, 02:15 AM	Either I was not clear or people are just thinking, but when Huan and I finish the World of Gladius thread there will be stories written about every single location. Written in the Scribelords account, I asked for those who would like their characters mentioned in the World of Gladius to email me about a specific location, giving you the privelege in adding to this world's great history and future. For reminders, my email is cancun_master@yahoo.com.
TelinArtho 11-12-05, 02:35 AM	If I get a chance, I'll send you something about the land of Primethia - located to the south of Gladius (somewhere). It is the location from which Sir Valkin hails.
Tellish_of_Ket 11-12-05, 02:38 AM	As will i with Memorex. Also, King your PM box is full...come to yahoo! -ToK
MysticMonk2005 11-12-05, 02:43 AM	I suppose I could make something about the city were Pard's mercenary family is based.....
SauroGrenom 11-12-05, 12:32 PM	Quick question for the fight I'm running right now. If you manifest a power as a immediate action and you are in a grapple at the time you do this, do you have to make a concentration check?
Sindorin 11-12-05, 12:41 PM	Okay, I got into an itty bitty argument last night with one of my friends here at school about prestige classes. He states that there is an official rule that says a character may only take levels in one prestige class and no levels in another prestige class may be taken by that character. Is this true? I argued that it does not say this anywhere in the Dungeon Master's Guide v3.5 and I also pointed out that you must meet prerequisites to take a prestige class, and what is to stop you from taking a level in a class as long as you meet the prerequisite? He was quite adamant, however, so I bring the question here. I even pointed at some of the builds I have seen where the character has levels in Assassin to get Dragon Disciple and then taking levels in Blackguard as well as Horizon Walker. SO, is a character only limited to levels in ONE particular Prestige Class?
Snommelp 11-12-05, 12:41 PM	Quick question for the fight I'm running right now. If you manifest a power as a immediate action and you are in a grapple at the time you do this, do you have to make a concentration check? I'm sure this pertains to my fight, so I'll make it easy: the Horseman doesn't have the power. His wisdom score isn't high enough. If it was, though, I'd say that he would have to make the concentration check.
Luni 11-12-05, 12:55 PM	Okay, I got into an itty bitty argument last night with one of my friends here at school about prestige classes. He states that there is an official rule that says a character may only take levels in one prestige class and no levels in another prestige class may be taken by that character. Is this true? I argued that it does not say this anywhere in the Dungeon Master's Guide v3.5 and I also pointed out that you must meet prerequisites to take a prestige class, and what is to stop you from taking a level in a class as long as you meet the prerequisite? He was quite adamant, however, so I bring the question here. I even pointed at some of the builds I have seen where the character has levels in Assassin to get Dragon Disciple and then taking levels in Blackguard as well as Horizon Walker. SO, is a character only limited to levels in ONE particular Prestige Class? No. A character can take any amount of prestige classes that they qualify for. Most people like to restrict the amount of Prestige Classes people can enter. Personally, the role-playing aspect should make it hard qualify for 15 different prestige classes.
Tellish_of_Ket 11-12-05, 01:08 PM	No. A character can take any amount of prestige classes that they qualify for. Most people like to restrict the amount of Prestige Classes people can enter. Personally, the role-playing aspect should make it hard qualify for 15 different prestige classes. Correct. There is no limit to number of presitge classes a player may enter. @Sauro: conc checks are needed to manifest, DC 20+spell level. -ToK
Maraxus 11-12-05, 02:20 PM	Btw, my next character is build. But I still need two credits. *put's out a sign reading* _______________________________ |Will dance for credits| || :) .
Mind Rogue 11-12-05, 02:42 PM	Btw, my next character is build. But I still need two credits. *put's out a sign reading* _______________________________ |Will dance for credits| || :) . Quickly closes eyes and looks away so as not to see a particular someone dance. ;)
Maraxus 11-12-05, 03:08 PM	You don't want to? Then don't press this link: http://people.freenet.de/maraxus/Kobolddance/Kobolddance.html (I warned you)
Prisonlords 11-12-05, 05:27 PM	I just want to let everyone know that the Prison was just updated. Prison Statistics & Top NARCs: 232 Violations Posted - TelinArtho 77 & Niqil 61 111 Levels Audited - Telin Artho 33, LLMadCow and Niqil 31 each A few more changes are coming along soon! LLPL
TheMagister 11-12-05, 09:07 PM	Tell me that the these two effects that increase size don't stack, even though they're from different sources: Add shield spikes to a light shield + add the bashing enchantment to a light shield. 1d3 -> 1d4 -> 1d6 -> 1d8 TM Although I don't need an answer right this second, I would like to know. Reason being: Sdentch is looking for ways to spend money. She would like to enchant her [Ma]Spiked +1 Light Steel Shield with the Bashing enchantment to get a net damage roll of 1d8+half-str. Looking at the famous spell description of Enlarge Person, I find that multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack. Fine and dandy. Looking at the definition of shield spikes, I find that the addition of said spikes increases the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger that the wielder. Looking at the definition of the Bashing enchantment, I find similar language, in that a bashing shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of two size categories larger. Neither of these modifications actually change the size of the shield, they're specifically "as if" modifications; one physical and one magical. So! If Sdentch had this mythical [Ma] Spiked +1 Light Steel Shield of Bashing she would deal 1d8 + 1/2 str with a shield bash. If she then drank a potion of enlarge person (she wouldn't be able to TWF, but I digress) that same shield would deal 2d6 + 1.5 str damage with a shield bash. When I first looked at all this, I thought, "Multiple effects that increase size don't stack!" But, there's only ONE size increase here, and two "as if" size increases that aren't actually size increases. I can't see why they wouldn't stack. Tell me I'm wrong (and prove why while you're at it!). Pretty please! TM
Book5 11-12-05, 09:42 PM	I can't see why they wouldn't stack. Tell me I'm wrong (and prove why while you're at it!). Pretty please! TM I think your right. Same way a Half Giant that gets enlarged to large is then treated as huge for purposes of grapple. Key one being - "deal damage as if" its not "enlarging" the object. The enchantment is altering one facet of the objects interaction (like powerful build only effects opposed grapple checks and not damage) the bashing enchantment increases damage but not size. Therefore: You increase the size of the shield, and then the application of bashing allows it to deal damage as though it were one size larger than that. Key two being bashing does not say anything about "enlarging (increasing weight and dimension)" its just increases the damage dealt.
TheMagister 11-12-05, 10:54 PM	@ Telin Well, it happened. Sdentch and Aquin are both level 6. What do you say? TM
TelinArtho 11-12-05, 11:07 PM	Well, if Aquin wins his match this week vs Ariel he'll be level 7. But if you really want to challenge him, he sees no reason not to accept...
TelinArtho 11-12-05, 11:32 PM	Just looking over your recent purchases... Oil of Daylight eh? 750gp for one round of blindness and having me dazzled afterwards? Seems a bit of a hefty cost... Also - your tattoos of skate should be 100gp each.
TheMagister 11-13-05, 12:16 AM	Just looking over your recent purchases... Oil of Daylight eh? 750gp for one round of blindness and having me dazzled afterwards? Seems a bit of a hefty cost... Also - your tattoos of skate should be 100gp each. (blush) I wondered about the skate tattoos. Thanks for the catch. TM
TheMagister 11-13-05, 12:18 AM	I think she's got a better than even chance vs. Aquin, given fair dice all around. As for the oil, I won't use expendables if you won't. =) TM
Caterane 11-13-05, 09:08 AM	@all: I've finished the Base Map for the CEF. It looks nice so far but the map maker I used (Dundjinni) is very awkward to use. For example, I have no idea how to remove a section of the wall without removing the whole thing because it auto-selects the whole wall all the time. Additonally, the icons are a bit limited. Soooo, do you have a better map maker for rooms? The Fractal Mapper I used for the world map is better for landscapes and not for rooms. Campaign Cartographer is not what I am looking for, either that or I just don't get it. :weep: The Living Guilds system begins in three days (wednesday) so please finish your base map, and ready your guild. You should pick 5 members; preferably lower levels because if your lvl 6 PC levels to 7 next week, he won't have a room. Ah btw, I've thought about Soullord's complaint that you need a fancy room for mid-level PCs. Here's my solution: You can take in a higher level PC that would have no room - who occupies a room of one tier lower (mid-level PC in basic quarter) but he does not earn the guild any tax until he has the proper room. That also take care of LVL 6 PCs leveling to 7. That way, they can stay in the guild. I'll take a look over all the guilds tomorow.
Guildmaster (WAR) 11-13-05, 01:17 PM	I use Dungeon Crafter myself, but again, the icons are limited. I also have yet to figure out how to resize my maps so that they are a good size.
Mal-2 11-13-05, 01:18 PM	Quick question. If you buy 1/2 rank of a skill that is designated 'Trained Only', are you allowed to use it? For example, a ranger spending 1 skill point on the cross-class skill Spellcraft. Is he allowed to make spellcraft rolls (at skill 0 + Int modifier)?
LLMadCow 11-13-05, 01:25 PM	Quick question. If you buy 1/2 rank of a skill that is designated 'Trained Only', are you allowed to use it? For example, a ranger spending 1 skill point on the cross-class skill Spellcraft. Is he allowed to make spellcraft rolls (at skill 0 + Int modifier)? Nope. You must have 1 Rank in a Trained Only skill to be able to use it. So, if the skill is cross-class, then you must have spent 2 points, or more, on it to be able to use it. LLMC
Mal-2 11-13-05, 01:27 PM	Nope. You must have 1 Rank in a Trained Only skill to be able to use it. So, if the skill is cross-class, then you must have spent 2 points, or more, on it to be able to use it. Thank you.
Mal-2 11-13-05, 01:33 PM	One more question. Was it ever decided whether a 3rd level ranger can cast spells from a scroll (with an effective caster level of 0) or not?
Maraxus 11-13-05, 01:39 PM	Yes, it is was always written in the rules: Through 3rd level, a ranger has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is one-half his ranger level. No caster level at all is diffrent from caster level 0. It means no scrolls, because you can't make a caster level check to cast the spell from the scroll. On another thing: Please check Noko. Especially the question on Weapon Finesse. The Pixie entry sais, it's a bonus feat but the "Pixies as character" Part sais nothing about it.
Mal-2 11-13-05, 01:45 PM	No caster level at all is diffrent from caster level 0. It means no scrolls, because you can't make a caster level check to cast the spell from the scroll. Did you follow the earlier discussion about this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041116a) Rules of the Game article about scrolls? If so, and you still think the answer is no, that's fine. I'm just asking because it doesn't seem as clear cut as you make it out to be.
Maraxus 11-13-05, 02:04 PM	Okay, it sais... Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. (...) To use a spell completion item safely, you must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If you can't already cast the spell, there's a chance you'll make a mistake, as noted on page 238 of the Dungeon Master's Guide. To activate a spell trigger item with an arcane spell on it, you must have levels in a class able to cast arcane spells. Likewise, to activate a spell trigger item with a divine spell on it, you must have levels in a class able to cast divine spells. If you don't have enough levels in the class to cast any spells yet, you can still try to use a spell trigger item, but your effective caster level for activating the spell is 0. If a scroll has a caster level higher than your own, you have to make a Spellcraft check (DC = 1 + the scroll's caster level) to activate the scroll. If you fail the check, you don't activate the scroll and the scroll isn't used up. Okay, I think Skip Williams was drunk when he wrote this. Or trying to confuse the players. All that he sais is true, and by the rules, through it does not look like this. Why? Read again, carefully (I didn't spot it the first time, too): Likewise, to activate a spell trigger item with a divine spell on it, you must have levels in a class able to cast divine spells. If you don't have enough levels in the class to cast any spells yet, you can still try to use a spell trigger item, but your effective caster level for activating the spell is 0. Now, I really don't know Why he is setting this almost true statement about spell trigger items into the paragraph about spell completition items but he did. One should also see that this is only half way true, sinceyou don't try to use them, it simply works. Also spell trigger items are not divine or arcane. What I see: The rules are clear. The Article looks like clearly saing something else, but looking closely he does not, and even more he has mistakes even in what he sais.
Luni 11-13-05, 02:37 PM	Nope. You must have 1 Rank in a Trained Only skill to be able to use it. So, if the skill is cross-class, then you must have spent 2 points, or more, on it to be able to use it. LLMC Where does it say that? I know in the non-core books, there are feats that give 1/2 rank to every skill so you can use them untrained.
Vathelokai 11-13-05, 02:40 PM	I use Dungeon Crafter myself, but again, the icons are limited. I also have yet to figure out how to resize my maps so that they are a good size. I use dungeon crafter as well. To fix the size issue, I use MS Paint. It has a size and rotate function in the tools bar, and you can save to jpg. Deffinitely not the best software, but effective. I've even made a bunch of custom tiles with the thing. "icons are limited" - Have you downloaded all of the expansion pack things?
Snommelp 11-13-05, 02:41 PM	I use dungeon crafter as well. To fix the size issue, I use MS Paint. It has a size and rotate function in the tools bar, and you can save to jpg. Deffinitely not the best software, but effective. I've even made a bunch of custom tiles with the thing. "icons are limited" - Have you downloaded all of the expansion pack things? No, I hadn't. Where can I find them? Also, neat trick with MS Paint. I'm going to have to try that.
Vathelokai 11-13-05, 02:53 PM	At the dungeon crafter (http://www.dungeoncrafter.com/) site, over on the right side of the page is a download section. Under maps (http://www.dungeoncrafter.com/archives/maps.shtml) there are full made maps you can use. Also under downloads there is DC1 Custom (http://www.dungeoncrafter.com/dc1customs/index.shtml) which gives a long list of tilesets. After you click on the name of a tileset, you have to click on the picture to download the set. *EDIT* Then on the left side under communtity is Tyger's DC Challenge (http://www.geocities.com/dcchallenge/). There is an archive of a lot of great tiles DC users have made.
Pittbull 11-13-05, 03:05 PM	On another thing: Please check Noko. Especially the question on Weapon Finesse. The Pixie entry sais, it's a bonus feat but the "Pixies as character" Part sais nothing about it. Cool, another Pixie! Pitlords won't look forward to run her fights! ;) It's now the fourth one who joins LG, Laph might consider to build a pixie-guild. About weapon finesse, I think it's a typo in the SRD. If you look in the MM (page 236), it's not listed a racial feat.
Sindorin 11-13-05, 03:20 PM	IMO pixie is probably one of the most effective races from which to build from... Expect to see another one soon... from me.
Snommelp 11-13-05, 03:29 PM	IMO pixie is probably one of the most effective races from which to build from... Expect to see another one soon... from me. Effective? Who cares about effective? I only want fun characters. So, when the leagues open, you can expect a troll and a gray render from me. EL 11 and 15, but man will they be fun to see in action! ...how many credits will those cost me? 32 and 48, respectively? Man, I'd better get to work earning credits. Hey Pitt, why not turn that Pixie guild into a good ol' Monster guild? And thanks for the links, Vath. I'm putting together a wooden guild house now, and then I'll try the MS Paint trick.
Sindorin 11-13-05, 03:32 PM	Well, fun characters work too, I was just saying...
Tellish_of_Ket 11-13-05, 03:38 PM	They are deathly effective vs ill-prepared players, but a good warrior with see invis and cold iron arrows/weapons, won't be fooled in the slightest. In fact the pixie then becomes a severly weakened build. IMHO at least. -ToK
Pittbull 11-13-05, 04:28 PM	Hey Pitt, why not turn that Pixie guild into a good ol' Monster guild? Yeah, later when the guilds are running. But for now, we have enough nice guilds.
Maraxus 11-13-05, 07:06 PM	For now, I will stay guild-less. Maybe hang around with the nice fellows from the living tree. Btw: One problem of being a pixie is, that you can't start with 5 ranks in anything. I think I have to do some public relation management, before my hard work is honored with gold. (PS: I think I have good chances to win the next "most freaking profession award". But I have not imagined it myself. Now, who knows, where I got inspired? Hint: Look at my location)
TelinArtho 11-13-05, 10:51 PM	I think she's got a better than even chance vs. Aquin, given fair dice all around. As for the oil, I won't use expendables if you won't. =) TM No no - feel free. You use everything at your disposal if you wish. Aquin's going to have a rough time - but its not like a little blindness/dazzling is going to make a difference to him...
Tellish_of_Ket 11-13-05, 11:12 PM	No no - feel free. You use everything at your disposal if you wish. Aquin's going to have a rough time - but its not like a little blindness/dazzling is going to make a difference to him... running out on Krunch so soon, eh? ya,...thought so. lol j/k -ToK
NiQil 11-14-05, 12:13 PM	Do spells that use the casting stat (Wis, Int, etc) as a part of the effect of the spell allow the casting stat to be changed if it is different for the various classes that use the spell? As an example, the assassin prestige class casts arcane spells, and eventually get access to an arcane version of the divine spell Poison (drd 3/Clr 4). Per the spell description, this spell uses the caster's Wis modifier to determine the save DC for the spell, since this spell is a divine spell. If an assassin casts this spell, does that Wis modifier change to Int, since Assassin's use Int as their casting stat?
Tellish_of_Ket 11-14-05, 12:18 PM	Do spells that use the casting stat (Wis, Int, etc) as a part of the effect of the spell allow the casting stat to be changed if it is different for the various classes that use the spell? As an example, the assassin prestige class casts arcane spells, and eventually get access to an arcane version of the divine spell Poison (drd 3/Clr 4). Per the spell description, this spell uses the caster's Wis modifier to determine the save DC for the spell, since this spell is a divine spell. If an assassin casts this spell, does that Wis modifier change to Int, since Assassin's use Int as their casting stat? Good question. Though there isn't anything to back up my opinion, and it is just that, an opinion, i would say yes...Assassins would use int...however, on a rules stand-point i would lose, because it doesn't say anything about it, and the description clearly says wisdom. I would make a house rule to change it to Int for the arcane version...but then again, i'm a little biased. :D -ToK
Pittbull 11-14-05, 12:36 PM	Good question. Though there isn't anything to back up my opinion, and it is just that, an opinion, i would say yes...Assassins would use int...however, on a rules stand-point i would lose, because it doesn't say anything about it, and the description clearly says wisdom. I would make a house rule to change it to Int for the arcane version...but then again, i'm a little biased. :D -ToK No, no, you aren't biased. I'm sure that assasins can scribe arcane scrolls (with int-mod), if they have the feat. So, there are arcane scrolls of poison.
Stormwind 11-14-05, 01:03 PM	A small woman enters the city. She is barely noticed by the guards at the gates as she walks in. She then proceeds to a tavern where she gets a room and the proceeds to wash away the accumulated dust that speaks of much travel. Having cleaned up she then proceeds to wander around the city until she ends up at the arena. She watches the fights with great interest. At the end of the day she walks down to the administrative offices of the arena and registers herself as a competitor for the weeks to come. Greetings all ...
waywreth 11-14-05, 03:36 PM	Greetings and salutations short one. /ooc hi Stormwind. Also I'm back from vacation so the Darath family is once again ready to sacrifice themselves upon the altar of the dice gawds.
Vathelokai 11-14-05, 04:43 PM	Question: I'm thinking about buying arrows with enhancements. Can you only choose enhancements off of the 'ranged weapon special abilities' chart, or can you pick from anywhere. Also on the 'specific ranged weapons' chart, there are sleep arrows. Can they be used normally, or do you need poison use or something?
TelinArtho 11-14-05, 04:45 PM	Yes they need to be on the ranged weapon special abilities. So for instance a +1 Arrow of Shocking is fine; a +1 Arrow of Disruption - no no. Remember that if you are buying them in lots of 50 - there is no credit expense - but if you do them in lots of 1 or 5, there is a credit cost. Sleep arrows and Slaying Arrows require no special ability to use.
Stormwind 11-14-05, 05:08 PM	On the same topic, Sleep arrow only appears in the list of Specific weapons under Magical weapons and armor. It doesn't appear as an ability on the ranged weapons list. Thus would it be possible to obtain similar 'sleep bolts' or 'sleep bullets'?
TelinArtho 11-14-05, 05:22 PM	Yes it is possible, but it would require putting the ability into a "different slot" - which is a credit expenditure listed under the Gladius Blackmarket. It might actually qualify as a custom item - but regardless - it would need to be "approved" by the GM.
Altaris13 11-14-05, 06:17 PM	Howdy peoples. Wow... so many changes in just a few weeks. Well, almost two months actually. I trust no one else was blown by Wilma? She wasn't worth the money. ;)
Usurpator 11-14-05, 06:30 PM	Howdy peoples. Wow... so many changes in just a few weeks. Well, almost two months actually. I trust no one else was blown by Wilma? She wasn't worth the money. ;) Welcome back! About Wilma: we don't have that kind of women here in Holland, so I wouldn't know. ;)
TheMagister 11-14-05, 08:04 PM	Help me out here: Tattoo of Biofeedback: Range: Personal 25gp x 1 (PsyWar ML) x 1 (PL) x 2 (personal range) = 50gp. And that's it, right? TM
Mind Rogue 11-14-05, 08:28 PM	Help me out here: Tattoo of Biofeedback: Range: Personal 25gp x 1 (PsyWar ML) x 1 (PL) x 2 (personal range) = 50gp. And that's it, right? TM Excepth that Tattoos are (50 gp) x (PL) x (ML) [x2 personal] So Biofeedback is actually 100 gp.
SauroGrenom 11-14-05, 11:50 PM	Do you have to spend your free actions to craft new scrolls? I'd like to recraft some that were used in the last fight so how do I document that?
NiQil 11-15-05, 12:11 AM	Do you have to spend your free actions to craft new scrolls? I'd like to recraft some that were used in the last fight so how do I document that? Yes, crafting scrolls counts as a free action. As far as documenting it, you would log it just as if you never had the scrolls to begin with and were making them for the very first time. If the total value at marketprice (before crafting discounts) is 1000 or less, you can still fight that week. If it is over that, you will need to dedicate at least a week or more to crafting.
Altaris13 11-15-05, 10:23 AM	Welcome back! About Wilma: we don't have that kind of women here in Holland, so I wouldn't know. ;) Thanks Usurpator. There's been a lot of crazy changes. Do I understand correctly that PCs on campaign do not count as active towards credit costs?
TelinArtho 11-15-05, 10:25 AM	Currently, though I think this is only week 2 of that and it is a probationary trial.
Ribking 11-15-05, 11:40 AM	Hey everyone....I have a question about Two Weapon Fighting and how it affects standard attacks. If I choose to attack with only one weapon, am I still at -2 to hit? What about Charging?
TelinArtho 11-15-05, 11:44 AM	Fighting with two weapons is a full round attack action. If you are only taking a standard action to attack, then you can't be TWF, and therefore do not suffer the penalties associated with it (essentially your off-hand is just holding an item at that point).
Macbrea 11-15-05, 01:38 PM	I couldn't find it in the rules, so I figured I would just ask. Assuming Gorak goes Fighter 1/Rogue 1/ Ranger 3. He would have an exp penalty of -20%. Does this also apply to his gold for fights in CoCo?
Cerebus13 11-15-05, 01:41 PM	I couldn't find it in the rules, so I figured I would just ask. Assuming Gorak goes Fighter 1/Rogue 1/ Ranger 3. He would have an exp penalty of -20%. Does this also apply to his gold for fights in CoCo?Yes. Please bookmark and refer back to this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7637707&postcount=222) post where I have collected various sets of small question/answers of some of the more customized CoCo rules and issues. In the upper part of the list your question shows up as being answered by Caterane.
Tellish_of_Ket 11-15-05, 02:01 PM	Yes. Please bookmark and refer back to this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7637707&postcount=222) post where I have collected various sets of small question/answers of some of the more customized CoCo rules and issues. In the upper part of the list your question shows up as being answered by Caterane. Wow...i have definately bookmarked that thread. That is killer-awesome. Were i you, i'd be asking Cat for 1° weekly to maintain that. That is definately a very valuable resource. -ToK
NiQil 11-15-05, 02:10 PM	Wow...i have definately bookmarked that thread. That is killer-awesome. Were i you, i'd be asking Cat for 1° weekly to maintain that. That is definately a very valuable resource. -ToK I had asked in the FotW thread that it be made it's own post on the Rules thread, but have yet to get a response. I agree that it is great to have a place to reference things that have already come up and been hammered out. I'm just concerned about it getting pruned.
Ayrynthyn 11-15-05, 05:57 PM	Greetings All! Long time lurker, longer time gamer. From my reading, it seems that this is the place to say Hey. I'm an old 1st / 2nd edition kinda guy. Went out and picked up a few of the books, and pulled the old group outa retirement to give this 3.5 a go. I gotta say, you guys are providing quite the service here, and an outstanding job at it I may add. Seeing how the rules actually play out vs. what they "read as" is an incredible aid to me and my cronies (Grapple anyone? :confused: ). Anyway… don’t want to take up too much of your time, so um… “Hey”, “Thanks”, and I’ll have a character up real soon.
Tellish_of_Ket 11-15-05, 06:03 PM	I had asked in the FotW thread that it be made it's own post on the Rules thread, but have yet to get a response. I agree that it is great to have a place to reference things that have already come up and been hammered out. I'm just concerned about it getting pruned. Let's just pray he has it backed up on his HD. -ToK
Sindorin 11-15-05, 06:09 PM	Greetings All! Long time lurker, longer time gamer. From my reading, it seems that this is the place to say Hey. I'm an old 1st / 2nd edition kinda guy. Went out and picked up a few of the books, and pulled the old group outa retirement to give this 3.5 a go. I gotta say, you guys are providing quite the service here, and an outstanding job at it I may add. Seeing how the rules actually play out vs. what they "read as" is an incredible aid to me and my cronies (Grapple anyone? :confused: ). Anyway… don’t want to take up too much of your time, so um… “Hey”, “Thanks”, and I’ll have a character up real soon. Welcome! Be sure to watch out for flying Cat's, Harvesters, Sahuagins, Archangels, etc. hehe
Book5 11-15-05, 06:16 PM	Yeah, later when the guilds are running. But for now, we have enough nice guilds. Monsters guild? Nice!?! @Stormwind A normally sized (small) and rather orangish you man dashes by her. He winks and twirls his chain as he throws himself at the throng before the arena gates. Hoy! Hennan! I told you we shoulda taken the back gate! We're gonna be late! The halfling hollars at a blond human man in robes, and as soon as the frentic fellows appeared they vanish into the terrace of the collesium.
Huan 11-15-05, 06:41 PM	And the word of the day is ... (http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/archive/2005/11/15.html)
Luni 11-15-05, 07:02 PM	Yes. Please bookmark and refer back to this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7637707&postcount=222) post where I have collected various sets of small question/answers of some of the more customized CoCo rules and issues. In the upper part of the list your question shows up as being answered by Caterane. There is an error in that thread. Lycanthropes don't get wings in hybrid form. Unless the thread over-rules the rules. Speed Same as the base creature or base animal, depending on which form the lycanthrope is using. Hybrids use the base creature’s speed.
Snommelp 11-15-05, 07:18 PM	Silly question: are there any offensive Teleport style spells? So, for example, your DM sends something way too challenging against you and you just teleport it away until you can deal with it?
Cerebus13 11-15-05, 11:19 PM	There is an error in that thread. Lycanthropes don't get wings in hybrid form. Unless the thread over-rules the rules.That's a direct quote/answer from ToK answering that exact question. I don't know all the rules behind lycanthropes very well so you would have to ask him about it.
SauroGrenom 11-15-05, 11:21 PM	Silly question: are there any offensive Teleport style spells? So, for example, your DM sends something way too challenging against you and you just teleport it away until you can deal with it? Well there is Baelful teleport. Thats a nomad teleport power that causes damage. Also there is the dislocator and greater dislocator psionic weapons that teleport the victim 1-100 miles away in a random direction or to another plane.
Tellish_of_Ket 11-15-05, 11:59 PM	There is an error in that thread. Lycanthropes don't get wings in hybrid form. Unless the thread over-rules the rules. Base speed, does not limit it to ground speed, imho. But like the argument went, it was just my opinion. I didn't here too many others chime in on it and noone disagreed. I'd like to hear more, why you think they do not. -ToK
Vathelokai 11-16-05, 07:52 AM	Question: I'm thinking about buying arrows with enhancements. Can you only choose enhancements off of the 'ranged weapon special abilities' chart, or can you pick from anywhere?How about this then - can you get a melee special ability added to ammunition with a credit expenditure?
Stormwind 11-16-05, 08:24 AM	@waywreth, @Book5: The small figure nods in response to the greetings, however she seems distracted by the fighting and carnage in the area. --------------- It seems that it is possible for a soulknife to take the weapon specialisation feat, even though it normally requires 4 levels of fighter, as it is specifically mentioned in the soulknife class description. Thus is it possible for a soulknife to take the feat greater weapon specialisation? Mind Blade (Su): As a move action, a soulknife can create a semisolid blade composed of psychic energy distilled from his own mind. The blade is identical in all ways (except visually) to a short sword of a size appropriate for its wielder. For instance, a Medium soulknife materializes a Medium mind blade that he can wield as a light weapon, and the blade deals 1d6 points of damage (crit 19-20/x2). Soulknives who are smaller or larger than Medium create mind blades identical to short swords appropriate for their size, with a corresponding change to the blade’s damage. The wielder of a mind blade gains the usual benefits to his attack roll and damage roll from a high Strength bonus. The blade can be broken (it has hardness 10 and 10 hit points); however, a soulknife can simply create another on his next move action. The moment he relinquishes his grip on his blade, it dissipates (unless he intends to throw it; see below). A mind blade is considered a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. A soulknife can use feats such as Power Attack or Combat Expertise in conjunction with the mind blade just as if it were a normal weapon. He can also choose mind blade for feats requiring a specific weapon choice, such as Weapon Specialization. Powers or spells that upgrade weapons can be used on a mind blade. A soulknife’s mind blade improves as the character gains higher levels. At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, the mind blade gains a cumulative +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls (+2 at 8th level, +3 at 12th level, +4 at 16th level, and +5 at 20th level). Even in places where psionic effects do not normally function (such as within a null psionics field), a soulknife can attempt to sustain his mind blade by making a DC 20 Will save. On a successful save, the soulknife maintains his mind blade for a number of rounds equal to his class level before he needs to check again. On an unsuccessful attempt, the mind blade vanishes. As a move action on his turn, the soulknife can attempt a new Will save to rematerialize his mind blade while he remains within the psionics negating effect. WEAPON SPECIALIZATION [GENERAL] Choose one type of weapon for which you have already selected the Weapon Focus feat. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple as your weapon for purposes of this feat. You deal extra damage when using this weapon. Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, fighter level 4th. Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on all damage rolls you make using the selected weapon. Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon. A fighter may select Weapon Specialization as one of his fighter bonus feats. GREATER WEAPON SPECIALIZATION [GENERAL] Choose one type of weapon for which you have already selected Weapon Specialization. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple as your weapon for purposes of this feat. Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Greater Weapon Focus with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, Weapon Specialization with selected weapon, fighter level 12th. Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on all damage rolls you make using the selected weapon. This bonus stacks with other bonuses on damage rolls, including the one from Weapon Specialization (see below). Special: You can gain Greater Weapon Specialization multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon. A fighter may select Greater Weapon Specialization as one of his fighter bonus feats.
waywreth 11-16-05, 08:39 AM	I would say no you cannot as you need 4 levels of fighter... which in theory a soulknife could have, and then take weapon focus: soulknife, and weapon spec soulknife.
SauroGrenom 11-16-05, 08:42 AM	@waywreth, @Book5: The small figure nods in response to the greetings, however she seems distracted by the fighting and carnage in the area. --------------- It seems that it is possible for a soulknife to take the weapon specialisation feat, even though it normally requires 4 levels of fighter, as it is specifically mentioned in the soulknife class description. Thus is it possible for a soulknife to take the feat greater weapon specialisation? Mind Blade (Su): As a move action, a soulknife can create a semisolid blade composed of psychic energy distilled from his own mind. The blade is identical in all ways (except visually) to a short sword of a size appropriate for its wielder. For instance, a Medium soulknife materializes a Medium mind blade that he can wield as a light weapon, and the blade deals 1d6 points of damage (crit 19-20/x2). Soulknives who are smaller or larger than Medium create mind blades identical to short swords appropriate for their size, with a corresponding change to the blade’s damage. The wielder of a mind blade gains the usual benefits to his attack roll and damage roll from a high Strength bonus. The blade can be broken (it has hardness 10 and 10 hit points); however, a soulknife can simply create another on his next move action. The moment he relinquishes his grip on his blade, it dissipates (unless he intends to throw it; see below). A mind blade is considered a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. A soulknife can use feats such as Power Attack or Combat Expertise in conjunction with the mind blade just as if it were a normal weapon. He can also choose mind blade for feats requiring a specific weapon choice, such as Weapon Specialization. Powers or spells that upgrade weapons can be used on a mind blade. A soulknife’s mind blade improves as the character gains higher levels. At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, the mind blade gains a cumulative +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls (+2 at 8th level, +3 at 12th level, +4 at 16th level, and +5 at 20th level). Even in places where psionic effects do not normally function (such as within a null psionics field), a soulknife can attempt to sustain his mind blade by making a DC 20 Will save. On a successful save, the soulknife maintains his mind blade for a number of rounds equal to his class level before he needs to check again. On an unsuccessful attempt, the mind blade vanishes. As a move action on his turn, the soulknife can attempt a new Will save to rematerialize his mind blade while he remains within the psionics negating effect. WEAPON SPECIALIZATION [GENERAL] Choose one type of weapon for which you have already selected the Weapon Focus feat. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple as your weapon for purposes of this feat. You deal extra damage when using this weapon. Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, fighter level 4th. Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on all damage rolls you make using the selected weapon. Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon. A fighter may select Weapon Specialization as one of his fighter bonus feats. GREATER WEAPON SPECIALIZATION [GENERAL] Choose one type of weapon for which you have already selected Weapon Specialization. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple as your weapon for purposes of this feat. Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Greater Weapon Focus with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, Weapon Specialization with selected weapon, fighter level 12th. Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on all damage rolls you make using the selected weapon. This bonus stacks with other bonuses on damage rolls, including the one from Weapon Specialization (see below). Special: You can gain Greater Weapon Specialization multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon. A fighter may select Greater Weapon Specialization as one of his fighter bonus feats. I may be wrong, but it is my oppinion that the passages you have selected indicate that a multiclass soulknife with levels in fighter can take weapon specialization in the mindblade. This does not suggest that soulknifes have access to the feat, simply that the mindblade qualifies as a weapon that may be specialized in.
Altaris13 11-16-05, 09:34 AM	Cool, another Pixie! Pitlords won't look forward to run her fights! ;) It's now the fourth one who joins LG, Laph might consider to build a pixie-guild. About weapon finesse, I think it's a typo in the SRD. If you look in the MM (page 236), it's not listed a racial feat. This was errata'd. I don't recall the exact wording, but I believe every creature that is smaller than Small gets weapon finesse as a bonus racial feat, and can apply said benefit to natural attacks too. EDIT: OK, so I'm only partially right. I refer you to the MM errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a). It is on the first page. The table at the bottom of the page shows Sprite, Pixie as getting Weapon Finesse as a racial feat and Alertness as a selected feat for the 1st hit die.
Stormwind 11-16-05, 09:38 AM	I may be wrong, but it is my oppinion that the passages you have selected indicate that a multiclass soulknife with levels in fighter can take weapon specialization in the mindblade. This does not suggest that soulknifes have access to the feat, simply that the mindblade qualifies as a weapon that may be specialized in. I agree with you, it makes perfect sense that the soulknife does not have access to the weapon specialization feat. It just seems strange that they would use a feat like weapon specialization (requiring the 4 levels of fighter) as an example for a soulknife specific ability rather than something like improved critical(mind blade) which does not require other class levels.
Altaris13 11-16-05, 09:52 AM	I disagree about Soulknife and Weapon Specialization. Any class entry overrides a feat entry. To quote the SRD: A soulknife can use feats such as Power Attack or Combat Expertise in conjunction with the mind blade just as if it were a normal weapon. He can also choose mind blade for feats requiring a specific weapon choice, such as Weapon Specialization. Powers or spells that upgrade weapons can be used on a mind blade. IMO, they specifically use the example of Weapon Specialization rather than Weapon Focus(1) just to ellucidate the fact that a Soulknife may select Weapon Specialization: Mindblade as one of their feats. Of course, I would require the Soulknife to be at least level 4 in the Soulknife class to take said feat. Not only does the relevant section show that the Mindblade counts as a weapon for all intents and purposes, but the inclusion of this exact feat leads me to believe that you can and should substitute Soulknife for Fighter when reading the Weapon Specialization entry. (1)I know they get Weapon Focus as a bonus feat. But besides Improved Critical and Weapon Proficiency, I cannot think of any other weapon specific feats.
One_Winged_Angel 11-16-05, 10:51 AM	I can think of several weapon specific feats, but they are all from outside sources that aren't core, which is likely the reason. I would like to argue that the phrasing there says they may take weapon specific feats, such as Weapons specialization. It does not say, anywhere, they may take weapon specific feats, including Weapon Specialization. Besides, therefore the only way they could get this feat would be through a bonus feat. Otherwise, it is still required, no matter what class they are, to meet the prerequisites for a feat. A prerequisite for Weapon Specialization is 4 levels of fighter.
Ayrynthyn 11-16-05, 11:55 AM	I'm pretty sure I already know the answer to this, but hey... there are no dumb questions only dumb people...right? :rolleyes: What happened to all the Mundane and common materials? The premise I’m working on is "refuses to use magic". A couple rounds in the arena, and perhaps a mini quest will hopefully cure me of this, but eh... its all in the spirit of RP. Anyway, the Grease spell gives a +10 circumstance bonus to resist Grapple/escape artist, what about a bucket of Lard? Glitterdust outlines even an invisible foe, what about a bag of flour? Items like these used to be available in the older editions, but since I can’t find these items listed in the SRD, or my book can I presume they're off limits here? if so...how would you rule in your home campaign?
Pittbull 11-16-05, 12:32 PM	This was errata'd. I don't recall the exact wording, but I believe every creature that is smaller than Small gets weapon finesse as a bonus racial feat, and can apply said benefit to natural attacks too. EDIT: OK, so I'm only partially right. I refer you to the MM errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a). It is on the first page. The table at the bottom of the page shows Sprite, Pixie as getting Weapon Finesse as a racial feat and Alertness as a selected feat for the 1st hit die. Whow! That's really cool, thank you! I'll add weaponfinesse as a racial feat on Laph's character-sheet, too.
Ayrynthyn 11-16-05, 01:00 PM	I'm not sure if i can still sneak in for this weeks round, but i pm'd pitlords just incase. I'm looking for a second set of eyes on this... comments or critiques are welcome. http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7768842&postcount=530
Mal-2 11-16-05, 01:23 PM	I'm not sure if i can still sneak in for this weeks round, but i pm'd pitlords just incase. I'm looking for a second set of eyes on this... comments or critiques are welcome. http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7768842&postcount=530 Some minor things: Your STR should be listed as 14 (+2) not 14 (+1) You base ranged attack bonus should be +5 (+2 BAB, +3 DEX), not +4 Your silver Kama should do 1d6+1, not 1d6+2 (since alchemical silver weapons do -1 damage). Your shuriken need a range incriment Your flurry of blows line is written oddly: "(Fullround action - 2 attacks at +5/+5 [Full BAB +0/Full BAB +0])" I think those attacks should be at +3/+3 (or +2/+2 if using your fists or other non-masterworked monk weapon). I didn't go through all your skills, but your total at the top doesn't look right. You should get (4 monk + 2 int + 1 human) x 4 = 28 at first, and 7 each level thereafter for a total of 42 monk skill points at 3rd, not 40. Your Siangham is not listed in the equipment section, only in the attacks section.
Luni 11-16-05, 01:29 PM	Anyone know how much a brooch should cost? Specifically one that resembles a Brooch of Shileding, but isn't magical.
Mind Rogue 11-16-05, 01:31 PM	I'm not sure if i can still sneak in for this weeks round, but i pm'd pitlords just incase. I'm looking for a second set of eyes on this... comments or critiques are welcome. http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7768842&postcount=530 Let's see... You need to chop off a point of damage from your silvered kama: silver weapons have a -1 damage modifier. You don't need to link all of your feats and special abilities to the SRD and especially not twice like you did for the Still Mind ability. In fact, it probably is better that you don't do that, since linking is usually used for referencing a feat that has been changed with Cat's approval. Lot's of your skills you cannot use because they cannot be used untrained and you have no ranks in them. You need to remove them. You don't have a siangkam, yet you listed it as one of your attacks. hope this helps.
Ayrynthyn 11-16-05, 02:04 PM	Some minor things: Your STR should be listed as 14 (+2) not 14 (+1) Check You base ranged attack bonus should be +5 (+2 BAB, +3 DEX), not +4 Check Your silver Kama should do 1d6+1, not 1d6+2 (since alchemical silver weapons do -1 damage). Check.this is great...didn't know this thanks :) Your shuriken need a range incriment Check Your flurry of blows line is written oddly: "(Fullround action - 2 attacks at +5/+5 [Full BAB +0/Full BAB +0])" I think those attacks should be at +3/+3 (or +2/+2 if using your fists or other non-masterworked monk weapon). Check I didn't go through all your skills, but your total at the top doesn't look right. You should get (4 monk + 2 int + 1 human) x 4 = 28 at first, and 7 each level thereafter for a total of 42 monk skill points at 3rd, not 40. Check...i always forget about that extra human point per level Your Siangham is not listed in the equipment section, only in the attacks section. Check Let's see... You need to chop off a point of damage from your silvered kama: silver weapons have a -1 damage modifier.Check You don't need to link all of your feats and special abilities to the SRD and especially not twice like you did for the Still Mind ability. In fact, it probably is better that you don't do that, since linking is usually used for referencing a feat that has been changed with Cat's approval.Check...this was really here for my benefit, as i am not too familiar with most of these. removed the links Lot's of your skills you cannot use because they cannot be used untrained and you have no ranks in them. You need to remove them.hmm... the only skills that (afaik) are trained only are: Decipher Script, Disable Device, Handle Animal, the Knowledges, Open Lock, Professions, Slight of hand, Speak Language, Spell Craft, Tumble, and Use Magic Device. Any of these i have listed have ranks... which one's are in error??? You don't have a siangkam, yet you listed it as one of your attacks.Check hope this helps. ...appreciate the assist guys.
Altaris13 11-16-05, 02:04 PM	Whow! That's really cool, thank you! I'll add weaponfinesse as a racial feat on Laph's character-sheet, too. You're welcome. :)
Altaris13 11-16-05, 02:15 PM	Is there a place to find all the most recent updates to the rules? As in, is there a spot to locate the which rules were recently changed/updated and review those rules without having to reread the entire rules threads and try to figure out which ones have been changed?
Book5 11-16-05, 03:55 PM	Not only does the relevant section show that the Mindblade counts as a weapon for all intents and purposes, but the inclusion of this exact feat leads me to believe that you can and should substitute Soulknife for Fighter when reading the Weapon Specialization entry. . I disagree. The Greater weapon specilization feat specifically states that you need to have fighter lvl12. There is no "sub soul knife" indicated in the soul knife description. The ability says that the knife (the ectoplasmic creation) "qualifies" for those feats...assuming you have access to them otherwise. A 12th level soul knife does not qualify for weapon specialization (greater or otherwise) - you have to be a fighter...not a psychic warrior - a fighter. Specialization is a "fighter class only" set of feats. No exceptions. If you are a 12th level fighter and a 1st level soul knife - then yes you can take a specialization in the mind blade. SO, Stormwind... had a chance to peruse the guild halls yet? @others - What happened to the EYE guild? I was thinking about making a new character and joining the EYE... now I cant seem to find it on the board??? checked back a couple pages... did it get deleted? did it fall farther back into history than I have my view settings for?
Myrridin 11-16-05, 04:07 PM	Ok, I've created a map in Dungeon Crafter, exported it to Adobe to mess with it a bit. How do I add a grid so that the spaces can be figured out for movement and such? I need it to show up so that it makes sense when I post the map. Thanks.
Snommelp 11-16-05, 04:58 PM	@others - What happened to the EYE guild? I was thinking about making a new character and joining the EYE... now I cant seem to find it on the board??? checked back a couple pages... did it get deleted? did it fall farther back into history than I have my view settings for?It's still there. The guildmaster just hasn't removed the "do not post here" tag yet, so nobody has. Who's the guildmaster for that guild?
Pittbull 11-16-05, 05:05 PM	The guildmaster of the Watchful Eye is Enterik.
Book5 11-16-05, 06:02 PM	The guildmaster of the Watchful Eye is Enterik. hmm, found it. Slippped past the "last month" line. Only three petitioners.... Me and my "Ba'al" shall make 4. A lawful Xeph psychic warrior +
Ayrynthyn 11-16-05, 06:16 PM	i've actually patitioned the Guildmaster (EYE) account as well. with Talik (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7768842&postcount=530) . I know im new, but the RP side of the fence is old hat to me. Looking forward to it.
Stormwind 11-16-05, 06:16 PM	SO, Stormwind... had a chance to peruse the guild halls yet? Yep, I've browsed through all the guilds threads (including the council thread discussions), and one char has already joined the PSI guild as a founding member. I haven't yet decided whether I'm going to create another character for one of the other guilds.
Book5 11-16-05, 11:02 PM	Looks like the EYE is intended for the more "highbrow" RP They are the cops basically. I have this image in mind of playing a "Detective" who tries to "track down" evidence whenever one of the guilds does anything "Illeagal." I have the intro post all thought out - havent finished the character yet- a still pending one prolly be up ton or tom. Stormwind .... ;) A young gnomish lady is handing out pamphlets near the Arena - Looking for an exciting eldritch future? Want to make the MOST out of your arcane career! Stop by the TOA and speak with one of our Admissions counsulers! Today! Teehee, the schools in shambles - but "the classes must go on!" Thats what professor Tan always says!
One_Winged_Angel 11-17-05, 12:39 AM	Well, the last page of my Reserved spaces on characters is officially filled. Faetaure, (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5194989&postcount=134) my attempt at an old character re-design, is up. I was hoping someone could look for some glaring errors on him.
NiQil 11-17-05, 12:45 AM	The guildmaster of the Watchful Eye is Enterik. Just a thought here....but Enterik hasn't been online in almost two weeks. With the guilds kicking off this week, I'm not sure if we can afford to let a guild fall behind so early. We might want to look at reassigning that to another volunteer....if one can be found. If not, that guild will be at a disadvantage until it is reassigned or Enterik comes back.
Snommelp 11-17-05, 01:11 AM	Well, if Enterik didn't change the password, we could find a new guildmaster and Cat could PM him/her the password. Might be a bit rough, though, taking over a guild right now. So, any volunteers?
lonewolf 11-17-05, 03:32 AM	Hi everyone! After playing 1.5 years on the Real Adventure boards I decided that I want to widen my board appearance to the Core Coliseum. Karen Douglas, my human Psychic Warrior will soon be ready for action. lonewolf
Pittbull 11-17-05, 04:03 AM	Ja, servus! You're welcome, the Quick Start Guide (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5179917) may help you. If you have any questions, just ask.
MystErikEry 11-17-05, 04:15 AM	Hello, everyone! I'm, er, back, I suppose. I had a nice wild idea, and I'm going to run with it for this next character. I'm glad to see that my map got into the Coliseum! I'm kind of surprised, since it seems kind of dull, but I suppose all truly good maps are fairly dull overall (since if they were exciting, they'd bee far too distracting). Since I don't have enough credits, yet, for my lycanthropic giant octopus character, I'll just stick with my nice new idea and see how far I get. It's a departure from my usual like of Would anyone care to look over my character to make sure I've done him right? I'll just post him here, for now, and add him to the Characters of Gladius thread sooner or later. Kishu Kouchuu: Kishu Kouchuu Picture (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v704/loraz/beetle3.jpg) (Male) Dromite (Monstrous Humanoid) Neutral 2 Fighter (LA+1), ECL 3 STR...14 [+2]...(10 pts) [16, -2racial] DEX...14 [+2]...(6 pts) CON...12 [+1]...(4 pts) INT....16 [+3]...(10 pts) WIS...10 [+0]...(4 pts) [12, -2racial] CHA...12 [+1]...(2 pts) [10, +2racial] Hit Points: 13 [2 HD] (2d10 +1con)*2 AC 24 [+1dex, +1size, +9armor, +3natural], Touch 12, Flat 23 Initiative: +6 [2dex +4 feat] AB/Grapple: +4/+0 [+2bab, +2str]/[-4 size] Speed 15 Saves: Fort +4 [3 Ftr +1con] Refl +2 [0 Ftr +2dex] Will +0 [0 Ftr +0wis] Resistance to Energy: 5 Attacks: (Two-Handed) Lance +6 melee, 1d6+3 [20/x3] [+4 BAB, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 Mwk Lance] [1d6 +(2str)*1.5] (One-Handed) Lance +6 melee, 1d6+2 [20/x3] [+4 BAB, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 Mwk Lance] [1d6 +2str] Dagger +4 melee, 1d3+2 [19-20/x2] [+4 BAB] [1d3 +2str] Feats: Blind-Fight [dromite bonus] Weapon Focus (Lance) [1st lvl] Power Attack [Ftr 1] Improved Initiative [Ftr 2] Special Racial Qualities: Naturally Psionic [1 PP] Scent Special Abilities: Psi-Like Ability: 1/day-energy ray (ML 1) Skills (30 Points Ftr): +8 Handle Animal [5 rnks, +1cha, +2 tool] [5 Ftr] +7 Ride [5 rnks, +2dex] [5 Ftr] +10 Craft (Weaponsmithing) [5 rnks, +2int, +2 tool] [5 Ftr] +10 Craft (Armorsmithing) [5 rnks, +2int, +2 tool] [5 Ftr] +2 Listen [2.5 rnks, +0wis] [5 Ftr(cc)] +2 Spot [0 rnks, +0wis, +2 racial] [0 Ftr] +1 Hide [0 rnks, +2dex, +4 size, -5 armor] [0 Ftr] -3 Move Silently [0 rnks, +2dex, -5 armor] [0 Ftr] Speaks Common, Terran, and Gnome [0 Ftr] Buffs and Prefight actions: - Psionically Focused (Just in case!) Equipment: +1 Full Plate [25 lbs][825 gp* + 1000 gp Enchantment] Mwk Lance [5 lbs][155 gp*] Dagger [0.5 lbs][1 gp*] *=Self-Crafted [B]Expendable Items: Potion of Cure Light Wounds (CL 1) [0 lbs][50 gp] Potion of Cure Light Wounds (CL 1) [0 lbs][50 gp] Potion of Cure Light Wounds (CL 1) [0 lbs][50 gp] Potion of Cure Light Wounds (CL 1) [0 lbs][50 gp] Potion of Cure Light Wounds (CL 1) [0 lbs][50 gp] Potion of Protection from Good (CL 1) [0 lbs][50 gp] Potion of Protection from Evil (CL 1) [0 lbs][50 gp] Potion of Protection from Law (CL 1) [0 lbs][50 gp] Potion of Protection from Chaos (CL 1) [0 lbs][50 gp] Tattoo of Biofeedback (ML 1) [0 lbs][100 gp] Tattoo of Skate (ML 1) [0 lbs][100 gp] Equipment at home: Gold: 209 Mwk Weaponsmithing Artisan's Tools [5 lbs][55 gp] Mwk Armorsmithing Artisan's Tools [5 lbs][55 gp] Mwk Handle Animal Whistle [0 lbs][50 gp] Miscellaneous Statistics: Encumbance: 0-43.5 (light), 43.5-87 (medium), 88-131.25 (heavy) Weight carried: 30.5 lb Fights results: 0: (Name of opponent), (Name of player): (win/loss) [+?? XP] [+?? gold] Past ExpendituresPast Expenditures (tot. 0 gp): Oh yeah, I forgot to mention: I don't know yet what kind of chitin (and thus Energy Resistance and Energy Ray) to give him. I'll have to learn a little more about dromite caste systems and stuff before I make that decision, I think. :) Although, having an Energy Resistance to Sonic seems exceptionally nice, too... then again, Fire is the most common weapon, so perhaps I ought to go with that :) We'll see...
lonewolf 11-17-05, 05:48 AM	Maybe someone could also look over my first character which I just posted in the characters of Gladius thread, to take a look if I have done anything seriously wrong? Thanks lonewolf
TheMagister 11-17-05, 06:02 AM	Maybe someone could also look over my first character which I just posted in the characters of Gladius thread, to take a look if I have done anything seriously wrong? Thanks lonewolf I don't think you can make money with craft until you've got at least 5 ranks in the skill. You need to detail your HP in silvered text. Pretty sure you're shorting yourself on the attack mod on your comp longbow: +2 BAB, +2 dex, +1 [Ma] = +5 total, or +3 during expansion (-1 b/c of dex penalty and -1 size). Not to be all "you munchkin!" or anything, but it's wierd that your character took all those neat spiked chain relevant feats BEFORE he made himself able to use a spiked chain with any skill. Not really important, but jumps out at me nonetheless. You need to detail your calculations on how you got your skill point total. Your number is correct, though. ;) On your powerstones of vigor, I think you need to pay credits to get the manifester level boosted to higher than minimum. I'm not up to speed on the rules on psionic augmentation, though, so you'd be better off checking the Rules of Gladius thread; it's easy to research. On a totally unrelated note: why are you carrying a tower shield?? Your spiked chain uses two hands, and you don't carry and one-handed weapon at all... I guess you could hide behind it to use expendables or powers, but it seems awfully heavy for that purpose...then again, portable walls SHOULD be heavy, I suppose. TM
MystErikEry 11-17-05, 06:38 AM	For some reason, the site died for a good while for me, and I had been intending to post this... I know the previous poster has already covered some of it, but here you go :) : Maybe someone could also look over my first character which I just posted in the characters of Gladius thread, to take a look if I have done anything seriously wrong? Thanks Very frightening, to me! I think you should have 22 HP instead of 23. (3d10 + 2)*3 = (5.5 + 2)*3 = (7.5)*3 = 22.5 = 22 HP Since it rounds down, as far as I know. You should have +5 for your ranged attack bonus (unexpanded): +3 BAB +2 Dex Expanded you should have +3 for your ranged attack bonus: +3 BAB +1 Dex -1 size You need to address your power stones in your prefight actions, or at least note somewhere that they're addressed. You need to be able to succeed a DC 15+Power Level Psicraft check, but since you can Take 20, you only need a +4 Psicraft modifier in order to always succeed. If you don't mention that you've addressed them, you'd have to address them during the fight, which is silly and time-consuming, since you can't just Take 20 unless you want your opponent to kill you before you can address the Stone :P Otherwise, he's quite intimidating! That disarm check is huge (makes me want to invest in a locked gauntlet) and the tripping is just icing. I'm just glad that you can't trip the person while they're standing up from prone (as, until they've completed their action, they're still prone and cannot be tripped, and after their action are no longer provoking an attack of opportunity)... Same thing with disarming someone who is picking up an item. You can attack them, mind you, but there's no having them disarmed all over again... Still, it's quite scary when, as a normal attack, you can practically disable someone for a round or more. Try adding Psionic Grease to your Powers Known, and make it even harder for people to keep a grip on their weapons! Edit: And yes, you do need 5 ranks in a skill in order to use it to earn money. Sorry :D
lonewolf 11-17-05, 07:02 AM	I don't think you can make money with craft until you've got at least 5 ranks in the skill. You need to detail your HP in silvered text. Pretty sure you're shorting yourself on the attack mod on your comp longbow: +2 BAB, +2 dex, +1 [Ma] = +5 total, or +3 during expansion (-1 b/c of dex penalty and -1 size). You need to detail your calculations on how you got your skill point total. Your number is correct, though. ;) fixed Not to be all "you munchkin!" or anything, but it's wierd that your character took all those neat spiked chain relevant feats BEFORE he made himself able to use a spiked chain with any skill. Not really important, but jumps out at me nonetheless. He could have used a Heavy Flail at lvls 1+2 but I changed it anyway. On your powerstones of vigor, I think you need to pay credits to get the manifester level boosted to higher than minimum. I'm not up to speed on the rules on psionic augmentation, though, so you'd be better off checking the Rules of Gladius thread; it's easy to research.. I think I already calculated that correctly: The cost is 25*Manifester-level*Power-level = 25*6*1=150 for each stone => 750 for 5 stones, right? On a totally unrelated note: why are you carrying a tower shield?? Your spiked chain uses two hands, and you don't carry and one-handed weapon at all... I guess you could hide behind it to use expendables or powers, but it seems awfully heavy for that purpose...then again, portable walls SHOULD be heavy, I suppose. TM Exactly. Its a portable wall against mounted archers or the like. Against most opponents I will drop it in the first round(or will not even take it with me in the arena). You need to address your power stones in your prefight actions, or at least note somewhere that they're addressed. You need to be able to succeed a DC 15+Power Level Psicraft check, but since you can Take 20, you only need a +4 Psicraft modifier in order to always succeed. If you don't mention that you've addressed them, you'd have to address them during the fight, which is silly and time-consuming, since you can't just Take 20 unless you want your opponent to kill you before you can address the Stone Although I dont believe that any Pitlord would assume that Im carrying non-adressed powerstones with me, I noted it on the sheet. I think you should have 22 HP instead of 23. (3d10 + 2)*3 = (5.5 + 2)*3 = (7.5)*3 = 22.5 = 22 HP You get max hitpoints at first level, so I have 23 even though the Psywar has only a d8 as Hitdice. I'm just glad that you can't trip the person while they're standing up from prone (as, until they've completed their action, they're still prone and cannot be tripped, and after their action are no longer provoking an attack of opportunity)... Same thing with disarming someone who is picking up an item. You can attack them, mind you, but there's no having them disarmed all over again... Yes, but what I CAN do is disarming someone who just stands up or tripping someone who picks up his weapon. :evillaugh Still, it's quite scary when, as a normal attack, you can practically disable someone for a round or more. Try adding Psionic Grease to your Powers Known, and make it even harder for people to keep a grip on their weapons! Psionic Grease is not on the Psychic Warrior powerlist, and im not going to invest a feat for this. Thanks for the help both of you!
Pitlords 11-17-05, 08:46 AM	@all: I offer 1 credit for making a slight change on the Standard Arena Code Map. The positive coordinates should be blue, not read. It is a bit misleading when running a fight. @Lonewolf: Grüße nach Österreich und willkommen im Core Coliseum.
Sunwolf 11-17-05, 09:04 AM	Well, the last page of my Reserved spaces on characters is officially filled. Faetaure, (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5194989&postcount=134) my attempt at an old character re-design, is up. I was hoping someone could look for some glaring errors on him. Looks like you have a typo on your INT mod -- should be +0 not +6. Endurance is for ranger 3 not ranger 2 as you have listed. Crafts and professions both earn money (also both ranger skills) so if you switch your points from craft to profession you will also benefit from a +2 stat mod vs a +0 stat mod. You can buy tools for your craft or profession for 50gp for an additional +2 to the skill check.
Sunwolf 11-17-05, 09:20 AM	@lonewolf Welcome to the Core Coliseum! Also you can only by items with CL/ML of upto 2 higher than your ECL. Otherwise you need to pay credits and post the purchase in the blackmarket thread. => for ECL3 max of ML/CL 5 items without paying credits. Addressing powerstones requires a trained only skill -- psicraft which you must take cross class as a psiwarrior. However since you can take 20 on the psicraft check a single rank will allow you to address stones with power levels upto 6 which covers all your psiwarrior powers. For Augumented stones the pricing is: Every 2 power points after the first increases the effective level for pricing of the stone. Each vigor stone: ML1 vigor stone: 1pp*1(effective level)*25=25 ML2 vigor stone: 2pp*1(effective level)*25=50 ML3 vigor stone: 3pp*2(effective level)*25=150 ML4 vigor stone: 4pp*2(effective level)*25=200 ML5 vigor stone: 5pp*3(effective level)*25=375 ML6 vigor stone: 6pp*3(effective level)*25=450 Even levels are most cost effective. 6 ML5 vigor stones would cost 2250gp Check for these rules under available items and NPC services in the Rules of Gladius
lonewolf 11-17-05, 09:47 AM	hehe It seems like someone else also tried to abuse this and thus it was houseruled to cost more. Oh well; I will have to live with ML4 Vigors, which still nearly double my hitpoints. :cool: I´ve also taken care of the psicraft thing. Thanks for the help again! :bow:
Snommelp 11-17-05, 10:02 AM	Yes, but what I CAN do is disarming someone who just stands up or tripping someone who picks up his weapon. :evillaugh You're scaring me! How ever will my dwarven monk stand up to this assault of trips and disarms?!? :D Welcome to the board. Don't mind me; sarcasm runs in my family, unfortunately.
Usurpator 11-17-05, 12:00 PM	Warning! This is not an issue or problem with the current setup of the Hunter fights, nor a request to change the rules, simply an analysis and some questions: Total net rewards (XP/gp) awarded for different fight types at ECL 3 with four combatants: All-vs-All Fight: 3600 XP (900 per participant) Hunter Fight (best-case-scenario): 2700 XP (750 per participant) Team Fight: 2400 XP (600 per particpant) Hunter Fight (worst-case-scenario): 2100 XP (525 per participant) Why is it that an All-vs-All fight is rewarded significantly more than a Hunter-fight? A 'Hunter' that defeats three opponents by himself AND in the stated order would get 1800 XP/gp. An 'All-vs-All' gladiator that simply stayed alive long enough to kill the last opponent (while the others were busy killing each other) also gains 1800 XP/gp. A 'Hunter' that has the misfortune of being in a match where his opponents start killing each other out of the stated order (like in a All-vs-All fight), but still being the last man standing gets only 1200 gp. It seems A Hunter match is much harder than a All-vs-All, but is rewarded less. Or I am reading the rules wrong?
Snommelp 11-17-05, 12:09 PM	A 'Hunter' that defeats three opponents by himself AND in the stated order would get 1800 XP/gp. An 'All-vs-All' gladiator that simply stayed alive long enough to kill the last opponent (while the others were busy killing each other) also gains 1800 XP/gp. A 'Hunter' that has the misfortune of being in a match where his opponents start killing each other out of the stated order (like in a All-vs-All fight), but still being the last man standing gets only 1200 gp. It seems A Hunter match is much harder than a All-vs-All, but is rewarded less. Or I am reading the rules wrong? You're reading them right. Hunter fights shouldn't happen like an All-vs-All, and if they do then the XP rewards reflect the fact that the characters didn't seem to care. All-vs-All fights you should have to worry about three opponents attacking you, whereas in Hunter you only have one attacking you. That's why the XP reward is greater. However, also note that if a Hunter kills someone else's target, the person whose target it was gets the XP. At least, that's how it was. It may have changed. If it hasn't changed, the last man standing still gets a large amount of XP, so long as his targets were killed.
Usurpator 11-17-05, 12:23 PM	You're reading them right. Hunter fights shouldn't happen like an All-vs-All, and if they do then the XP rewards reflect the fact that the characters didn't seem to care. All-vs-All fights you should have to worry about three opponents attacking you, whereas in Hunter you only have one attacking you. That's why the XP reward is greater. However, also note that if a Hunter kills someone else's target, the person whose target it was gets the XP. At least, that's how it was. It may have changed. If it hasn't changed, the last man standing still gets a large amount of XP, so long as his targets were killed. I am not entirely sure, but I think that has changed. Otherwise, with only one man in a 4 man hunter fight being left, everyone will have their targets defeated expect for the character that was supposed to kill the last man standing. From the way I read it, you actually have to defeat your target yourself to get XP. It matters, since I was contemplating for Kitaya to kill gladiators out of order in her hunter fight, going for the last-man-standing. In which case the order wouldn't matter, since all targets would have been defeated by Kitaya (I hope). But I am not sure now, so I am sticking to just killing my target and then taking it from there. Actually, if you kill anyone out of order in a 4 person Hunter fight, you would immediately get 2 people out to kill you, which is rather appropriate I think. And it doesn't even matter who does it, since both will get their 'target' defeated award in this case, right?
One_Winged_Angel 11-17-05, 12:45 PM	Looks like you have a typo on your INT mod -- should be +0 not +6. Endurance is for ranger 3 not ranger 2 as you have listed. Crafts and professions both earn money (also both ranger skills) so if you switch your points from craft to profession you will also benefit from a +2 stat mod vs a +0 stat mod. You can buy tools for your craft or profession for 50gp for an additional +2 to the skill check. ...I'm trying to figure out where the heck the 6 came from... Switched the Level on Endurance. Didn't realize rangers had profession. Switching for bunus. As for the tools, I'm saving for a +1 enchantment to my bow, so I'm trying to spend little as I can at lower levels. Thanks for the scan!
Snommelp 11-17-05, 12:57 PM	As for the tools, I'm saving for a +1 enchantment to my bow, so I'm trying to spend little as I can at lower levels. The tool will cost you 50 gp, and will earn you an additional 2xEL each week. Might be worth it, might not, depending on when you plan on enchanting your bow and how well you do in the arena.
One_Winged_Angel 11-17-05, 01:09 PM	The tool will cost you 50 gp, and will earn you an additional 2xEL each week. Might be worth it, might not, depending on when you plan on enchanting your bow and how well you do in the arena. Maybe I'll buy a set later when it net's me more than an extra 6 gp a fight. I don't plan on staying on this ECL very long :P
TelinArtho 11-17-05, 01:12 PM	Can anyone help me fix up a code map that I've posted in my quest thread. For some reason it is inconsistently adding a couple of spaces within the line and generally behaving oddly... Here's the code: --0---------1---------2---------3---------4---------5---------6---------7-------- --0123456789012345678901234567890123456789 012345678901234567890123456789012345678 -9....................................... .>...................................... -8....................................... .>...................................... -7....................................... .>...................................... -6........r.............................. ..>......rrr............................ -5....................................... ...>.....rrr............................ -4.......KK.............................. ...>.....rrr.........r.................. -3.......KK.............................. ...>.................rr................. -2....................................... ....>.................r................. -1.........r............................. ....>.................rrUU.............. 20...................................... .....>..................rUU.............. -9....................................... ....>................................... -8.................................r..... .....>.................................. -7....................................... ......>>>>>...................r......... -6....................................... ..........>...................r......... -5....................r.................. ..........>...................r......... -4....................................... ...........>..................r......... -3....................................... ....r.......>........................... -2....................................... .............>.......................... -1....................................... ..............>......................... 10...................................... ................>.....rr................. -9....................................... ...............>.....rr................. -8............r.......................... ...............>........................ -7....................................... ...............>........................ -6....................................... ..............>......................... -5....................................... .............>.......r.................. -4....................................... ...r........>........................... -3....................................... ...........>............................ -2....BB................................. ..........>............................. -1....BB...................r............. ..........>............................. 00..b..P................................ ...........>.............................
Stormwind 11-17-05, 01:20 PM	@all: I offer 1 credit for making a slight change on the Standard Arena Code Map. The positive coordinates should be blue, not read. It is a bit misleading when running a fight. Here you are: - + x3 2 2 1 1 0 0 0 1 1 2 2 3x y 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 y 30 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 30 9 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 9 8 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 8 7 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 7 6 w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O A O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w 6 25 w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w 25 4 w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w 4 3 w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w 3 2 w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O O O O O O O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w 2 1 w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w 1 20 w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w 20 9 w w w w w O O O O O O O O O @ @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ @ O O O O O O O O O w w w w w 9 8 w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w 8 7 w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w 7 6 w w w w O O O O O O O @ O O O @ O O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O O @ O O O @ O O O O O O O w w w w 6 15 w w w O O O O O O O O @ O O @ @ @ O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O @ @ @ O O @ O O O O O O O O w w w 15 4 w w w O O O O O O O O @ O O O @ O O O @ O O O O O O O § O O O O O § O O O O O O O @ O O O @ O O O @ O O O O O O O O w w w 4 3 w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 0 O O O w w 3 2 w w O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O w w 2 1 w w O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O w w 1 10 w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 0 O O O O O w 10 9 w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 0 O O O O O w 9 8 w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 0 O O O O O w 8 7 w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 0 O O O O O w 7 6 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 0 O O O O O O O 6 05 O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O 05 4 O O O O § O O O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O O O § O O O O 4 3 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 3 2 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 2 + 1 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 1+ 00 O O O O D O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O @ @ @ O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O B O O O O 00 - 1 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 1- 2 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 2 3 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 3 4 O O O O § O O O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O O O § O O O O 4 05 O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O 05 6 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 0 O O O O O O O 6 7 w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 0 O O O O O w 7 8 w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 0 O O O O O w 8 9 w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 0 O O O O O w 9 10 w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 0 O O O O O w 10 1 w w O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O w w 1 2 w w O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O w w 2 3 w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 0 O O O w w 3 4 w w w O O O O O O O O @ O O O @ O O O @ O O O O O O O § O O O O O § O O O O O O O @ O O O @ O O O @ O O O O O O O O w w w 4 15 w w w O O O O O O O O @ O O @ @ @ O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O @ @ @ O O @ O O O O O O O O w w w 15 6 w w w w O O O O O O O @ O O O @ O O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O O @ O O O @ O O O O O O O w w w w 6 7 w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w 7 8 w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w 8 9 w w w w w O O O O O O O O O @ @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ @ O O O O O O O O O w w w w w 9 20 w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w 20 1 w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w 1 2 w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O O O O O O O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w 2 3 w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w 3 4 w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w 4 25 w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w 25 6 w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O C O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w 6 7 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 7 8 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 8 9 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 9 30 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 30 y 3 2 2 1 1 0 0 0 1 1 2 2 3 y x0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0x - + Legend w: wall O: arena floor O: arena floor, starting box @: column to the ceiling §: big rock A, B, C, D: default starting squares
NiQil 11-17-05, 01:26 PM	Can anyone help me fix up a code map that I've posted in my quest thread. For some reason it is inconsistently adding a couple of spaces within the line and generally behaving oddly... Here's the code: --0---------1---------2---------3---------4---------5---------6---------7-------- --0123456789012345678901234567890123456789 012345678901234567890123456789012345678 -9....................................... .>...................................... -8....................................... .>...................................... -7....................................... .>...................................... -6........r.............................. ..>......rrr............................ -5....................................... ...>.....rrr............................ -4.......KK.............................. ...>.....rrr.........r.................. -3.......KK.............................. ...>.................rr................. -2....................................... ....>.................r................. -1.........r............................. ....>.................rrUU.............. 20...................................... .....>..................rUU.............. -9....................................... ....>................................... -8.................................r..... .....>.................................. -7....................................... ......>>>>>...................r......... -6....................................... ..........>...................r......... -5....................r.................. ..........>...................r......... -4....................................... ...........>..................r......... -3....................................... ....r.......>........................... -2....................................... .............>.......................... -1....................................... ..............>......................... 10...................................... ................>.....rr................. -9....................................... ...............>.....rr................. -8............r.......................... ...............>........................ -7....................................... ...............>........................ -6....................................... ..............>......................... -5....................................... .............>.......r.................. -4....................................... ...r........>........................... -3....................................... ...........>............................ -2....BB................................. ..........>............................. -1....BB...................r............. ..........>............................. 00..b..P................................ ...........>............................. The reason is that you are using the dots instead of spaces or characters or something....I used to run into it all the time. It is something the boards insert when there are too many characters running together with no spaces. If you can tell me what the dots are supposed to represent, I can fix it for you.
NiQil 11-17-05, 01:43 PM	Nevermind...just did it with the dots. Here ya go: 0 - - - - - - - - - 1 - - - - - - - - - 2 - - - - - - - - - 3 - - - - - - - - - 4 - - - - - - - - - 5 - - - - - - - - - 6 - - - - - - - - - 7 - - - - - - - - 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 -9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -6 . . . . . . . . r . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . r r r . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . r r r . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -4 . . . . . . . K K . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . r r r . . . . . . . . . r . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -3 . . . . . . . K K . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . r r . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . r . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -1 . . . . . . . . . r . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . r r U U . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . r U U . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . r . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > > > > > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . r . . . . . . . . . -6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . r . . . . . . . . . -5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . r . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . r . . . . . . . . . -4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . r . . . . . . . . . -3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . r . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . r r . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . r r . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -8 . . . . . . . . . . . . r . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . r . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . r . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -2 . . . . B B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -1 . . . . B B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . r . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 00 . . b . . P . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
waywreth 11-17-05, 02:09 PM	So I'm working on a few new characters and I was going to make a Xeph Ranger 1/Psychic Warrior 1/Fighter 1 Will I run into an XP/Gold penalty if I continue to increase only one of those levels? How about 2? If he's human I believe it won't occur in either case.
One_Winged_Angel 11-17-05, 02:12 PM	So I'm working on a few new characters and I was going to make a Xeph Ranger 1/Psychic Warrior 1/Fighter 1 Will I run into an XP/Gold penalty if I continue to increase only one of those levels? How about 2? If he's human I believe it won't occur in either case. Yes, if he's human, he won't incur penalties. As it stands, however, he is going to hit penalties for advancing only one class at level 5 or two classes at level 6. The reason is all the classes have to be within one step of each other. Favored class would help you if you were advancing that favored class.
Ayrynthyn 11-17-05, 02:17 PM	So I'm working on a few new characters and I was going to make a Xeph Ranger 1/Psychic Warrior 1/Fighter 1 Will I run into an XP/Gold penalty if I continue to increase only one of those levels? How about 2? If he's human I believe it won't occur in either case. if you increase just one class, as human, you'd be ok. With increasing two of the three classes, you'd be in trouble as only "his highest class doesnt count" for the XP and GP penalty. (i.e. 1 Ranger, Psychic Warrior 5, Fighter 4... the 5 Psi Warrior wouldn't count against the XP penalty leaving you the 1 Ranger / 4 Fighter. Definately more than 2 apart)
waywreth 11-17-05, 02:20 PM	Xeph has soulknife as the favored class... ah well. Hmm perhaps just ranger/psy warrior then.
NiQil 11-17-05, 02:44 PM	For those that haven't seen it yet, there is a new FAQ out. Most of the new stuff deals with questions around polymorph's....so those that regularly use those might wanna take a peak.
One_Winged_Angel 11-17-05, 03:01 PM	Question: Can a creature with a natural attack qualify for feats that require Improved Unarmed Strike? EX: A Lizardfolk wants to take deflect arrows or a Gargoyle wants to take improved grapple.
NiQil 11-17-05, 03:03 PM	Question: Can a creature with a natural attack qualify for feats that require Improved Unarmed Strike? EX: A Lizardfolk wants to take deflect arrows or a Gargoyle wants to take improved grapple. My answer is in the FotW thread from before you deleted your post there LOL.
One_Winged_Angel 11-17-05, 03:10 PM	My answer is in the FotW thread from before you deleted your post there LOL. Yah. I didn't realize what thread I was in. I suffer from a -20 to spot checks when not wearing my glasses or contacts. :D
NiQil 11-17-05, 03:13 PM	Yah. I didn't realize what thread I was in. I suffer from a -20 to spot checks when not wearing my glasses or contacts. :D I'm not allowed to make spot checks without my glasses....guess that skill is cross class and trained only for me :D
Usurpator 11-17-05, 04:26 PM	For those that haven't seen it yet, there is a new FAQ out. Most of the new stuff deals with questions around polymorph's....so those that regularly use those might wanna take a peak. Some of it is good, some of it is crazy. I guess we now can officialy expect a wizard with a 4th lvl Polymorph spell to apply a Paragon template to himself. Or an wizard with the outsider type could become a Pseudonatural Paragon.... Not funny...
NiQil 11-17-05, 04:36 PM	Some of it is good, some of it is crazy. I guess we now can officialy expect a wizard with a 4th lvl Polymorph spell to apply a Paragon template to himself. Or an wizard with the outsider type could become a Pseudonatural Paragon.... Not funny... I just skimmed it lookin for the new stuff.....I normally don't play casters (divine if I do), so I didn't read it in depth.
One_Winged_Angel 11-17-05, 04:42 PM	Hmm...it's odd. I thought the rule for template polymorphing had been thrown into the errata. Guess I was wrong. EDIT: Actually, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense. You really couldn't do much with that anyway. Think about it: You can't change into outsiders or undead, which is where the majority of templates come from. The only real viable ones for stat boosts would be half dragon.
Usurpator 11-17-05, 04:53 PM	Hmm...it's odd. I thought the rule for template polymorphing had been thrown into the errata. Guess I was wrong. EDIT: Actually, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense. You really couldn't do much with that anyway. Think about it: You can't change into outsiders or undead, which is where the majority of templates come from. The only real viable ones for stat boosts would be half dragon. PARAGON CREATURE CREATING A PARAGON CREATURE “Paragon” is a template that can be added to any creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature). The base creature’s type remains unchanged. The paragon creature uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here. HD: A paragon creature always has maximum hit points. Paragon creatures also gain an additional 12 hit points per HD. Speed: A paragon creature’s speed triples, for all movement types. AC: Paragon creatures gain a +12 insight bonus to AC and a +12 luck bonus to AC. They also gain a +5 natural armor bonus (if the creature already has natural armor, use whichever is better). Attacks: A paragon creature makes all its attacks with a +25 luck bonus on the attack roll. Damage: A paragon creature gains a +20 luck bonus on Damage rolls for all melee and thrown ranged attacks. Special Attacks: A paragon creature’s special attacks, if any, all gain a +13 insight bonus, if applicable. The +13 insight bonus may only be applied to a given special ability once. Spell-Like Abilities (Sp) or Psionics (Sp): If the base creature has spell-like abilities, it gains +15 to its caster level to use those abilities. A paragon creature also gains the ability to use greater dispel magic, haste, and see invisibility three times per day, even if it did not have spell-like abilities before, at 15th caster level. Special Qualities: A paragon creature retains all the special qualities of the base creature and also gains the following. • Fire and cold resistance 10. If the creature already possesses such resistance, use whichever is better. • Damage reduction 10/epic. If the creature already possesses Damage reduction, use whichever is better. • Spell resistance equal to the paragon creature’s CR +25. If the creature already possesses spell resistance, use whichever is higher. • Fast healing 20. If the creature already possesses fast healing, use whichever is better. • A paragon creature’s natural weapons are treated as epic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Saves: The paragon creature gains a +10 insight bonus on all its saving throws. Abilities: All ability scores are 15 points higher than those of the base creature. Skills: The paragon creature gains a +10 competence bonus on all its skill checks. Feats: Same as the base creature, plus one bonus feat. Climate/Terrain: Any land and underground. Organization: Same as the base creature. Challenge Rating: As base creature +15. Treasure: Standard for a creature of the adjusted CR. Alignment: Same as the base creature. Advancement: Same as the base creature. I beg to differ
One_Winged_Angel 11-17-05, 04:58 PM	Ah...right. I need to read in the SRD more... Hmm...we could houserule it. As well as votes on wheter or not we houserule that humans loose their skill and feat when they polymorph (since that too has been largely ignored in this place). EDIT: Actually, looking at it, you know what I see you getting out of that? PARAGON CREATURE CREATING A PARAGON CREATURE “Paragon” is a template that can be added to any creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature). The base creature’s type remains unchanged. The paragon creature uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here. HD: A paragon creature always has maximum hit points. Paragon creatures also gain an additional 12 hit points per HD. I never realized before, but polymorph doesn't switch your HD. Your HP remains the same. Speed: A paragon creature’s speed triples, for all movement types. You get this. So monk movement. AC: Paragon creatures gain a +12 insight bonus to AC and a +12 luck bonus to AC. They also gain a +5 natural armor bonus (if the creature already has natural armor, use whichever is better). +5 Natural armor. The other are supernatural, and not effected by polymorph as they are not listed as being aquired. Attacks: A paragon creature makes all its attacks with a +25 luck bonus on the attack roll. Damage: A paragon creature gains a +20 luck bonus on Damage rolls for all melee and thrown ranged attacks. Special Attacks: A paragon creature’s special attacks, if any, all gain a +13 insight bonus, if applicable. The +13 insight bonus may only be applied to a given special ability once. Again, SU abilities are not aquired with polymorph. And polymorph doesn't list these bonuses, so... Spell-Like Abilities (Sp) or Psionics (Sp): If the base creature has spell-like abilities, it gains +15 to its caster level to use those abilities. A paragon creature also gains the ability to use greater dispel magic, haste, and see invisibility three times per day, even if it did not have spell-like abilities before, at 15th caster level. Special Qualities: A paragon creature retains all the special qualities of the base creature and also gains the following. • Fire and cold resistance 10. If the creature already possesses such resistance, use whichever is better. • Damage reduction 10/epic. If the creature already possesses Damage reduction, use whichever is better. • Spell resistance equal to the paragon creature’s CR +25. If the creature already possesses spell resistance, use whichever is higher. • Fast healing 20. If the creature already possesses fast healing, use whichever is better. • A paragon creature’s natural weapons are treated as epic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Saves: The paragon creature gains a +10 insight bonus on all its saving throws. Abilities: All ability scores are 15 points higher than those of the base creature. Admittedly, the 15 points higher is scary. But only to physical abilities? I'd rather turn into a grey render or the like and get the natural attack damage. The rest are not even aquired, as they are not SPECIAL ATTACKS as you aquire per polymorphs description Skills: The paragon creature gains a +10 competence bonus on all its skill checks. Feats: Same as the base creature, plus one bonus feat. Climate/Terrain: Any land and underground. Organization: Same as the base creature. Challenge Rating: As base creature +15. Treasure: Standard for a creature of the adjusted CR. Alignment: Same as the base creature. Advancement: Same as the base creature. +10 to skills. Whoop de doo! That will help you only if your a caster or rogue, and caster very specific instances. I suppose we could ban this on the basis that it is epic. Otherwise, really, polymophing doesn't get you much out of it.
Altaris13 11-17-05, 05:05 PM	Ah...right. I need to read in the SRD more... Hmm...we could houserule it. As well as votes on wheter or not we houserule that humans loose their skill and feat when they polymorph (since that too has been largely ignored in this place). Wow... I never even thought of that. I'm sure most haven't. That's an interesting though.
Luni 11-17-05, 05:36 PM	Some of it is good, some of it is crazy. I guess we now can officialy expect a wizard with a 4th lvl Polymorph spell to apply a Paragon template to himself. Or an wizard with the outsider type could become a Pseudonatural Paragon.... Not funny... We should just simply ban templated creatures from polymorph. I know this one template in the Epic SRD that would be just nuts.
Usurpator 11-17-05, 05:47 PM	We should just simply ban templated creatures from polymorph. I know this one template in the Epic SRD that would be just nuts. Alter Self specifically forbids it. The Rules of the Game article agrees with the no templates restriction for polymorph. Now suddenly the FAQ does not.
Usurpator 11-17-05, 05:50 PM	Admittedly, the 15 points higher is scary. But only to physical abilities? I'd rather turn into a grey render or the like and get the natural attack damage. The rest are not even aquired, as they are not SPECIAL ATTACKS as you aquire per polymorphs description I guess you don't yet understand the power of templates. Why change into a Gray Render when you can just as easily change into a Gray Render Paragon?
Snommelp 11-17-05, 05:58 PM	Is Paragon even Core? I didn't think it was.
Macbrea 11-17-05, 06:07 PM	What does the word "Core" mean? What rulebooks can I use? Our definition of "Core" means everything that can be found in one of the following four sources (all D&D 3.5 sources): the Player's Handbook (PHB), the Dungeon Master's Guide (DMG), the Monster Manual (MM), and the 3.5 System Reference Document (SRD). Every D&D rule used in the Core Coliseum can be found in one of those four sources. You will notice the SRD is available for play. It does contain the Epic level handbook plus monsters within it. So, to answer your question, Yes Paragon is core.
Snommelp 11-17-05, 06:11 PM	You will notice the SRD is available for play. It does contain the Epic level handbook plus monsters within it. So, to answer your question, Yes Paragon is core. Yes, I know we use the SRD, but I also know that we don't do Epic level characters, which leads me to believe that only parts of the SRD are used.
Macbrea 11-17-05, 06:19 PM	Not like it would matter. Paragon is CR + 15. Someone want to make a paragon elf warrior for the level 16 league? In truth, it isn't worth it. 10 to 20 hps at level 16 is alittle silly.
Gonbow 11-17-05, 06:23 PM	Yes, I know we use the SRD, but I also know that we don't do Epic level characters, which leads me to believe that only parts of the SRD are used. No, everything in the first three books, or in the SRD is used. Example: Githzerai. They are not in the SRD, but they are in the monster manual, so they are used. Example: Divine feats. They are not in the three core books, but are in the SRD, so they are used. Example: Thri-kreen. They are not in the three core books, nor in the SRD, despite the other psionic things that /are/ the SRD and so are not used. Thus, Paragon is used. EDIT: Not like it would matter. Paragon is CR + 15. Someone want to make a paragon elf warrior for the level 16 league? In truth, it isn't worth it. 10 to 20 hps at level 16 is alittle silly. You cant create a PC with Paragon, as it does not have an ECL modifier. CR != ECL. (Cat's comments otherwise notwithstanding). However, as of the most recent FAQ... you CAN turn into a pargan-foo at no extra cost with a polymorph spell. Want to fly? Polymorph into a Paragon Dust Mephit. Want natural attacks? Polymorph into a Paragon Gray Render/etc.
Altaris13 11-17-05, 06:23 PM	Alter Self specifically forbids it. The Rules of the Game article agrees with the no templates restriction for polymorph. Now suddenly the FAQ does not. Yeah... After reviewing the FAQ update, the new information is totally freaking absoluetly, bleedingly eye blinding, mind scarring, ulcer inducing, migraine twistingly flipping out ludicrous.
Snommelp 11-17-05, 06:27 PM	No, everything in the first three books, or in the SRD is used. The SRD includes epic progressions for the Core classes, yet Caterane recently lamented the fact that his first Harvester to reach level 20 is now unplayable. Clearly, not all of the SRD is used, or else that would not be true. Besides, the house rules mention parts of the core rulebooks and SRD that aren't allowed; the Gate spell, for example.
Gonbow 11-17-05, 06:37 PM	The SRD includes epic progressions for the Core classes, yet Caterane recently lamented the fact that his first Harvester to reach level 20 is now unplayable. Clearly, not all of the SRD is used, or else that would not be true. Besides, the house rules mention parts of the core rulebooks and SRD that aren't allowed; the Gate spell, for example. We aren't using Epic material from the book for awhile; 1-20 is enough to take care of for now, but not everything is clearly marked 'epic'; among them Paragon, some magic items and a few feats. You'll note the lack of the ban on templated polymorphing in the house rules... Which is what some people are proposing to fix this latest shift of rules. Personally? I'd second it, it's the easiest way to prevent abuse.
Macbrea 11-17-05, 06:42 PM	The SRD includes epic progressions for the Core classes, yet Caterane recently lamented the fact that his first Harvester to reach level 20 is now unplayable. Clearly, not all of the SRD is used, or else that would not be true. Besides, the house rules mention parts of the core rulebooks and SRD that aren't allowed; the Gate spell, for example. Well, in order to progress with the Harvester beyond 20th, he would need someone to fight. He seems to be alone in his league.
NiQil 11-17-05, 06:45 PM	For those with polymorph concerns due to the new FAQ, there is a thread going that talks about them....I'm not up on the polymorph rules, so I only skimmed the thread....those that use this stuff may find it useful. FAQ discussion (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=7767299)
Snommelp 11-17-05, 06:47 PM	@ Macbrea: Read the discussion concerning [FROZEN] characters and quests. Cat said that the second avatar of the Harvester would never be played again, since we weren't going into Epic levels. New topic Proposal: Allies only effect GP and XP if there is an actual fight. If the player doesn't send tactics and has no defaults, there is no ally adjustment. If the character forfeits, there is no ally adjustment.
NiQil 11-17-05, 07:05 PM	@ Macbrea: Read the discussion concerning [FROZEN] characters and quests. Cat said that the second avatar of the Harvester would never be played again, since we weren't going into Epic levels. New topic Proposal: Allies only effect GP and XP if there is an actual fight. If the player doesn't send tactics and has no defaults, there is no ally adjustment. If the character forfeits, there is no ally adjustment. Heh....noticed that about Maven, didya?
One_Winged_Angel 11-17-05, 07:12 PM	Well, I think that if we aren't having characters go epic, we can make the argument against epic level Monsters allowed to be polymorphed into, neh? I think we should just vote out templates with polymorph. It doesn't seem right. No DM I know allows it. No player I know argues it longer than about a minute. We've houseruled before when something seems unbalancing. Why not here?
MystErikEry 11-17-05, 09:53 PM	I have a question. Which Vermin can be used as mounts? I realize that none probably count as properly trained for combat no matter what you do, so you'd have to succeed at DC 20 Ride Check (as a move-equivalent action) in order to actually control them in combat, regardless... However, the DMG lists monstrous spiders as mounts, and the dromite entry in the SRD mentions that they are encountered with riding Giant Beetles as well... So it must be possible. The DMG says that anything can be ridden provided it is (a) capable and (b) willing. I can't see any vermin as being willingly used as mounts, but I can't really see them as unwilling either (if a monstrous spider is "willing", then any vermin probably is... being mindless, I can't see them making any kind of conscious decision either way)... So for vermin, I suppose it's only dependant on whether they're capable of being ridden (aside from the obvious one-size-larger requirement). Can you ride a giant wasp? How about a monstrous centipede? In the former case, the wings pose a problem, but you could have a saddle installed just behind the wasp's head, so that the wings can still be used acceptable. As long as you're still a light load for the wasp, of course, as otherwise it couldn't fly regardless. I don't see why you couldn't ride a monstrous centipede, though. What about a giant mantis? They generally stand upright, so I'd say they're probably not suitable mounts... Giant ants? Those would be fun to ride! <3 Can anyone clarify this? It's obviously not efficient (since they're not trained for mounted combat) or even remotely game-breaking (it'd be better to just dismount and fight normally, usually), so...
TelinArtho 11-17-05, 10:02 PM	When I started designing Vakkor - I asked all of the questions I could think of about vermin. Here's the results: 1. In the CoCo - they are trained as animals of 1 int (and therefore can be trained in 3 tricks). 2. They are trained as non-animals, which means that DCs to handle them are at +5DC (training for attacking is DC25 for instance). 3. You can train them with the riding package - but never the combat riding package. Otherwise, as long as they meet the requirements of a mount (specifically one size greater) - then they will work.
MystErikEry 11-17-05, 10:10 PM	So could a small character ride a Giant Bee? :O And... let's see.. Does something have to be trained in Riding in order to be ridden at all? Do I need to succeed a DC 20 Ride check to control a mount trained for Riding but not Combat Riding? I know that "trained for Combat Riding" allows Barding...
Macbrea 11-17-05, 11:16 PM	Basicly, in animal handling you will find. Riding (DC 15): An animal trained to bear a rider knows the tricks come, heel, and stay. Training an animal for riding takes three weeks. Which means without that training on any animal it will not take kindly to you jumping on it's back. As a matter of fact it actually, may consider it an attack. So, you would need to train it those three tricks in order to actually get it to listen at ll to you an bear you as a rider.
Macbrea 11-17-05, 11:20 PM	Strickly by the rules if you look in the epic version of handle animal you will find: Task Time DC Rear vermin 6 months 35 + HD of vermin Train vermin 2 months 50 + HD of vermin Given that bit of information unless CoCo changes the rules Core states to train a vermin for riding. It would be a DC 51 Handle animal check.
MystErikEry 11-17-05, 11:35 PM	Those aren't from the three core books or the SRD, though. (Also, is the rule then that you MUST train the Vermin for "Riding" before you can ride it at all, and that you STILL need to make a DC 20 Ride check in order to get it to ride in combat?) Seems kind of silly that a creature who is constantly in combat with me, who keeps getting forced to do certain things (ie my Ride check to keep it under control) wouldn't eventually get used to it, and no longer require me to make such a steep check :P Oh well, with +2 Dex, a +2 tool (military saddle), Handle Animal Synergy +2, and Animal Affinity +2, along with a +5 competence to Ride magical item from the blackmarket costing 2500 gp, I only will need 7 ranks in Ride in order to always succeed that check, which I'd have at ECL 5 (the first time I can get a mount, as the Handle Animal ally must be at least 4 ECL/CR lower).... Heh heh heh.
Macbrea 11-17-05, 11:51 PM	Actually, those are from the SRD. If you would like links to the section they are: Training Vermin Epic Skills in SRD (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/epicSkills.html) And Standard plain old Handle Animal (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/skillsCha.html)
MystErikEry 11-17-05, 11:54 PM	Oh, wow. That seems... err... a bit much. How much would it cost to hire someone with a +41 (or higher) mod to Handle Animal? :O
Macbrea 11-17-05, 11:55 PM	which I'd have at ECL 5 (the first time I can get a mount, as the Handle Animal ally must be at least 4 ECL/CR lower).... Heh heh heh. Actually, you missed one statement on that 4 ECL/CR lower. The exception to the case is CR 1.
Macbrea 11-18-05, 12:11 AM	Oh, wow. That seems... err... a bit much. How much would it cost to hire someone with a +41 (or higher) mod to Handle Animal? :O Hmm, well if you had a +11 skill and took 10 for a 21. Then had 15 vermin russtlers to 'aid another' for those 3 weeks. Each would give you a +2 circumstance bonus to for their assistance in this skill. This would give you a +51. See not too difficult! Better have alot of really small ropes though. :D
MystErikEry 11-18-05, 12:14 AM	Oh, I see where it says that. It should say that above the list of possible Handle Animal allies, too, but it doesn't... Heh. Thanks for pointing that out. That means I can get myself a monstrous centipede (medium) as soon as I hit ECL 4 (when I'll have +11 HA) and can work on training it right away... mind you, that's not a big difference between that and ECL 5 :P Edit: LOL! The rules say that there's a limit to how many people you can have using aid another on these kinds of things... I'm going by what the other person said (since it's, er, workable, and it'd be really too bad otherwise) about counting them as nonanimals with 1 Int, or whatnot, instead. XD Edit 2: ACK! As it currently stands, my character, at the bare minumim (31 lbs, plus 30.5 lbs of equipment, for a total of 61.5 lbs) requires a mount with at least 12 Strength (Up to 64.5 for a light load) if I want to have it not be encumbered (which I don't, especially if it's a flying one). Unfortunately, Giant Bees only have 11 Strength, and Medium Monstrous Centipedes have only 9 Strength! With 11 Strength, they can carry up to 57 lbs as a light load, which is ALMOST enough for me... I guess I'll have to give up my Full Plate for something else... and I'd better do that right now, before I forget and it's too late!
Macbrea 11-18-05, 08:06 AM	You could go for an ally with an elite stats line. This would allow for a much stronger bee. The normal stat line assumes you have 10s or 11s in each stat. Also, you don't need that high of Animal handling if you have it trained by an NPC. Those services might be available. Though, I am not sure in the case of a Non-standard Animal.
TelinArtho 11-18-05, 08:50 AM	Notwithstanding what has been posted about the handle animal skill in the epic SRD - that is not the way vermin are trained in the CoCo (in fact, I wasn't even aware it was in there until pointed out). Vermin are treated as non-animals - so all checks are made at DC+5 from what is listed in the Handle Animal skill (Handling is DC15, Pushing is DC30, Training is either 20 or 25, etc). For riding, you would need the riding package and yes, you would still need to "control" the mount in combat. If you want an effective "vermin" mount - you'll need to put a "skin" on your standard warhorse, hippogriff, whatever - since you need that Int 2 to get enough tricks.
TelinArtho 11-18-05, 08:55 AM	Well another gladiator has fallen on a quest of mine... The Battle of Fael Daed (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=537512) Really, he got some unfortunate rolls - not only from being surprised, but then getting the lowest initiative, and then following that up by missing on his concentration check to cast defensively while surrounded. Bad all around. Even if he makes just the concentration check, he probably survives. This brings my overall record as a questlord to 3 completions and 4 player deaths... Hopefully Pard and Kage will survive and I will be able to even that out a little.
waywreth 11-18-05, 09:23 AM	So what happens to a character that dies on a quest anyway?
TelinArtho 11-18-05, 09:31 AM	They lose all excess xp since attaining their current level and if they have fought anyone/thing at their current level, they lose gold appropriate to those fights. So if you leveled to level 4 and have fought 2 people, you'd be reduced to 6000xp and lose the gold equivalent to those two fights.
NiQil 11-18-05, 10:26 AM	Well another gladiator has fallen on a quest of mine... The Battle of Fael Daed (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=537512) Really, he got some unfortunate rolls - not only from being surprised, but then getting the lowest initiative, and then following that up by missing on his concentration check to cast defensively while surrounded. Bad all around. Even if he makes just the concentration check, he probably survives. This brings my overall record as a questlord to 3 completions and 4 player deaths... Hopefully Pard and Kage will survive and I will be able to even that out a little. :clap: Way to inspire faith in your quests LOL j/k. I say we let The Harvester take one of your quests next LOL :P
Altaris13 11-18-05, 10:42 AM	Ayep. Having Telin kill you on a quest sucks balls. The problem with quests, and with monster fights, is that your encounters are the EL as normal for a game. IE, they are structured to be the right difficulty for FOUR characters, not one. Monster fights & Quest really should be based on ECL, not CR.
King Uther 11-18-05, 11:10 AM	@Telin You might have to run a quest for Virgo when I return. He's only had 1, maybe 2 quests at his EL, all others have been his EL+1. Should be a fun deal.
Snommelp 11-18-05, 11:21 AM	Ayep. Having Telin kill you on a quest sucks balls. The problem with quests, and with monster fights, is that your encounters are the EL as normal for a game. IE, they are structured to be the right difficulty for FOUR characters, not one. Monster fights & Quest really should be based on ECL, not CR.This is true, but ELs are also structured for characters that are 25 point point buy, so if it was based on ECL, the monsters would be slaughtered. As it is, the PCs still win a much greater number of quests and monster fights than they lose.
Dracazar 11-18-05, 11:26 AM	Please help me with this doubt. A won initiative and cast a spell B reactive listen fails (it happens in A turn), let's say the DC was 0 B on his initiative make an active listen check and he got a total of 5 B hears A? (A has move silently > 5) Every time you have a chance to hear something in a reactive manner (such as when someone makes a noise or you move into a new area), you can make a Listen check without using an action. Trying to hear something you failed to hear previously is a move action. Try Again: Yes. You can try to hear something that you failed to hear previously with no penalty. The issue is that, IMHO, the active listen check is opposed to the move silently check because the spell was already casted (on A initiative count) so the DC would not be 0 but more than 5. In this case B don't hears A. My doubt is that SRD says "try to hear something that you failed to hear previously", so this could mean that you retry to beat DC 0. In this case B hears A. Thanks.
MystErikEry 11-18-05, 11:30 AM	Since at the time of using the active listen check, the first character isn't casting a spell anymore (provided we're not dealing with a spell with a 1 round casting time, or more), it isn't a retry of the earlier DC --- it's a new check altogether. The "trying to hear something they couldn't hear previously" probably refers to when you can hear something just barely, but can't make out what it is. For example, trying to hear sounds on the other side of a door, or trying to hear something that's continuous that you're listening for. Otherwise, you could not hear something, and then, a day later, try to listen for it, and succeed in hearing it, since you're trying to hear something you failed to hear previously XD And that just doesn't make any sense.
TelinArtho 11-18-05, 11:31 AM	Let's also review the quests that I've run: Bring Out Yer Dead (EL3 each): The Pulverizer (ECL3) and The Phantom Lord (ECL3) [Success] Terror By the Sea (EL7): Crovax (ECL7 - drow cleric 5) - I recommended to him before the quest that it would likely get him killed - he still went forward and would have survived if he had done something in the first 5 rounds effectively (this is a combination of bad actions and bad rolls (for the good actions). [Failure in Week 1] Ode to a Pearl (EL3): Zamier (ECL3 - monk/cleric/fighter) - Mistaken action (casting a full round action while in move range for at least 2 opponents), followed by a few unlucky rolls. [Failure in Week 1] Climbing an Elf's Back (EL4): Torgirr Hammerstriker (ECL4 - Ranger 4) - very bad rolls coupled with some very lucky rolls for the opponent. [Failure in Week 1] Defilier in Jindl Forest (EL6+): Talari Leafwhisperer (ECL6 - Druid 6) - lucky first encounter (EL7) and very effective in the following two (EL6). [Success] Brother's Blood Runs Black (EL4): The Gatekeeper (ECL5 - Half-Dragon Fighter) - very effective in all fights though still close. [Success] ------------------------------------ I still feel that the LA for Drow isn't worth it - which is why I recommended that Crovax take a level lower for his quest. When Anixx wanted to do a quest at one EL higher (EL7 for an ECL6 character) - I was a little apprehensive - but he still would've been fine if just one of his rolls went in his favor (either listen, initiative or his concentration).
Usurpator 11-18-05, 11:33 AM	My doubt is that SRD says "try to hear something that you failed to hear previously", so this could mean that you retry to beat DC 0. In this case B hears A. Thanks. My interpretation would be: "try to hear something that you failed to hear previously and is still making sound" So if the spell has a casting time of 1 round, roll against DC 0, if it has 1 action casting time, opposed roll against Move Silently skill as normal.... I might be wrong though...
NiQil 11-18-05, 11:37 AM	Let's also review the quests that I've run: Bring Out Yer Dead (EL3 each): The Pulverizer (ECL3) and The Phantom Lord (ECL3) [Success] Terror By the Sea (EL7): Crovax (ECL7 - drow cleric 5) - I recommended to him before the quest that it would likely get him killed - he still went forward and would have survived if he had done something in the first 5 rounds effectively (this is a combination of bad actions and bad rolls (for the good actions). [Failure in Week 1] Ode to a Pearl (EL3): Zamier (ECL3 - monk/cleric/fighter) - Mistaken action (casting a full round action while in move range for at least 2 opponents), followed by a few unlucky rolls. [Failure in Week 1] Climbing an Elf's Back (EL4): Torgirr Hammerstriker (ECL4 - Ranger 4) - very bad rolls coupled with some very lucky rolls for the opponent. [Failure in Week 1] Defilier in Jindl Forest (EL6+): Talari Leafwhisperer (ECL6 - Druid 6) - lucky first encounter (EL7) and very effective in the following two (EL6). [Success] Brother's Blood Runs Black (EL4): The Gatekeeper (ECL5 - Half-Dragon Fighter) - very effective in all fights though still close. [Success] ------------------------------------ I still feel that the LA for Drow isn't worth it - which is why I recommended that Crovax take a level lower for his quest. When Anixx wanted to do a quest at one EL higher (EL7 for an ECL6 character) - I was a little apprehensive - but he still would've been fine if just one of his rolls went in his favor (either listen, initiative or his concentration). I think I am gonna borrow a title from the movie The Princess Bride and start referring to you as The Dread Questlord Roberts LOL
Myrridin 11-18-05, 01:27 PM	Does a creature pulled from a Bag of Tricks count as a Summon for the purposes of a Prot from Good potion?
NiQil 11-18-05, 01:34 PM	Does a creature pulled from a Bag of Tricks count as a Summon for the purposes of a Prot from Good potion? I would guess that a summons requires a summoning spell to count as a summons...but that's just a guess.
Dracazar 11-18-05, 01:39 PM	Please read here, I have this issue with a fight where I'm pitlord. Bob casts Shocking Grasp, and hold the charge of the touch spell. On next round Bob wants to use his Greatsword (two-hand weapon) Holding the Charge: If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge. Bob lose the shocking grasp while wielding the greatsword?
Altaris13 11-18-05, 01:45 PM	Please read here, I have this issue with a fight where I'm pitlord. Bob casts Shocking Grasp, and hold the charge of the touch spell. On next round Bob wants to use his Greatsword (two-hand weapon) Bob lose the shocking grasp while wielding the greatsword? Yeah, but Bob would. But Bob would also be smart enough to know that, and would use the spell before he lost it, IMO.
waywreth 11-18-05, 01:46 PM	If anyone could look at my new character and let me know what I did wrong it'd be great. Also, can anyone recommend a feat for level 3? Obviously he's designed for ranged combat. Fallon (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=7785405#post7785405) Thanks!
Dracazar 11-18-05, 01:55 PM	Yeah, but Bob would. But Bob would also be smart enough to know that, and would use the spell before he lost it, IMO. Yes Altaris13, I think that Bob is really smart, so I asked him a fix to his tactic :D
Macbrea 11-18-05, 02:32 PM	I have a silly question. Armor spikes aren't listed as a magic weapon type in the random table for magic weaopns in the DMG. Would this mean in order to get Armor Spikes +1 I would have to pay 5o for a custom item with different bonuses or 15o for custom permanent item?
Myrridin 11-18-05, 03:10 PM	The epic battle of Daeren Stronghammer versus a Vampire Spawn continues in the Spear of Fangs quest. Luck has swung wildly back and forth this fight, with Daeren just breaking a grapple the round before the spawn was going to start blood draining him.
Usurpator 11-18-05, 03:30 PM	Young apprentice, what can I teach you today? Great Sensei, I wish to learn more about touch spells, if it pleases you. You first cast a touch spell, then you hold the charge and touch your target, which can be an object or a creature, then it discharges. You can hold the charge, but if you touch anything or anyone, even unintentionally, it discharges. Really quite basic in principle. Do you have more questions, my young apprentice. Q: Yes Sensei. I am wondering if you have to touch your target with your hand? A: That is an easy question, my young apprentice. No, the hand is not required for delivering touch spells. There are many different creatures in this world, many of which don't have hands, but claws, hooves or tentacles. There creatures can still deliver touch spells. Have you ever heard of the Naga? No? This creature is well known for its magical capabilities, and they can cast touch spells as well. You can deliver a touch spell with your hand, your feet, even with your lips if you like. Q: I understand Sensei. Does the caster of the touch spell choose which appendage to charge with the touch spell? A: An interesting question. No, the caster is not required to choose an appendage. Or how would he choose, just his finger, his hand, his arm? Touch spells charge you whole body. Q: Do you need skin on skin contact to deliver a touch spell? A: You are a persistent one. In my years I have seen many a mighty cleric cure his friends in the heat of combat. These clerics usually wore full body armor and matching gauntlets, but I never saw them remove their gauntlets to deliver such spells. It might be possible they had a small hole bored somewhere in their armor though, I am not sure. Q: But Sensei, if you need to have skin on skin contact, can you deliver a touch spell against somebody in full body armor, since you say it can discharge against objects as well? A: An excellent question! I have seen many casters deliver touch spells just by touching someone's clothes or armor. That is why such spells are so effective, you don't need to bypass your enemy's armor. You have answered your own question, my young apprentice. Skin on skin contact is not needed. Q: You said before that when you hold the charge, touching anything or anyone would discharge the spell. Do your own clothes or armor don't count as anything then? A: Forsooth! Were you sent to challenge me? Obviously, you are touching everything you wear, so that should not discharge the spell, otherwise you can never hold the spell. Q: I do not wish to offend master, but since you can deliver touch spells without skin-on-skin contact, would the spell not discharge when you touch the ground? The ground is a 'anything' too, right? A: A difficult question. I must ponder this one before I answer. Q: Does the spell discharge when anyone touches you? A: Of course not, why would you even think this? I have seen many casters holding a touch spell beset by monsters, bitten by dragons even, and the spells were not discharged. We already discussed touch spells will be delivered through objects you wear, so that would mean a warrior that struck a caster with his greatsword would discharge the spell on himself. This is clearly nonsense. Q: But master, is there a difference between the caster touching his target and the target touching the caster then? Touching is just that, or isn't it? Does the caster need to consciously choose to touch and deliver. A: It's hot in here, don't you think so? You memory is failing you my young apprentice, I already told you touch spells will be discharged if you touch something, regardless if it is intentionally or unintentionally. Q: I am sorry master, but I don't understand. If someone grapples you, you can't avoid but touch the other, both intentionally or unintentionally? It seems my intellect must mature more, because I am not able to understand. Just a few more questions please Sensei. Does a wizard that casts shocking grasp and holds the charge automatically discharge on the familiar that is sitting on his shoulder, or the mount he is riding? A: That is preposterous, obviously not! Q: But the mount or familiar are not part of the wizard's equipment. Is he not touching them, intentionally or untentionally? A: You are twisting my words, a little respect please, I am the master, you are a mere student. Obviously it is a kind of magic that defies mere logic. Q: Can a wizard that cast a touch spell from a scroll and is holding the charge put the scroll into his backpack, or will touching the backpack discharge the spell? A: :confused: Q: If your weasel familiar on your shoulder touches you with his nose will the spell be discharged? How about when you pet the weasel familiar? A: :confused: Q: Does your touch spell discharge when you dismount and mount again? A: :drool: Q: Sensei? Moral of the story: discharging touch spells 'unintentionally on anyone or anything' while holding the charge is utter nonsense and should be disregared for sanity reasons.
Maraxus 11-18-05, 03:59 PM	Q: I understand Sensei. Does the caster of the touch spell choose which appendage to charge with the touch spell? ...I'm not sure about this one. It would be a minimal modification that makes the spell work almost the way it was intent to be. However, since Zassl took Shocking grasp last level, I definitly like the idea, that charges don't go off untill you want it.
NiQil 11-18-05, 04:06 PM	It would be nice to disregard that stuff, Usurpator.....now if we could only get around playing with the RAW, we could actually do that.
Usurpator 11-18-05, 04:15 PM	Q: I understand Sensei. Does the caster of the touch spell choose which appendage to charge with the touch spell? ...I'm not sure about this one. It would be a minimal modification that makes the spell work almost the way it was intent to be. However, since Zassl took Shocking grasp last level, I definitly like the idea, that charges don't go off untill you want it. That can also be a house rule, since the RAW is not exactly clear on this. But in the example given, 'Bob' (being smart) would obviously choose to deliver the touch spell with his nose (for example) if he wanted to charge with a greatsword before discharing. And doing a touch attack with your nose is not more difficult than with your hand, according to the RAW. And it still wouldn't solve opponents that attack or grapple the caster causing the touch spell to be discharged on themselves. Since the caster will touch his opponent, intentionally or unintentionally, in such a case. I don't think that is the intention of touch spells. If you scrap the unintentional part, every problem is solved.
Usurpator 11-18-05, 04:22 PM	It would be nice to disregard that stuff, Usurpator.....now if we could only get around playing with the RAW, we could actually do that. Well, some general ruling has to be made, otherwise I will have let every future touch spell someone casts when I Pitlord fail on account of the caster 'unintentionally touching anyone or anything', and might even get me some fried familiars or mounts to go with it. I am not one for arbitrary rulings by individual Pitlords about when it does and doesn't work, I can't write proper tactics that way.
NiQil 11-18-05, 04:34 PM	Well, some general ruling has to be made, otherwise I will have let every future touch spell someone casts when I Pitlord fail on account of the caster 'unintentionally touching anyone or anything', and might even get me some fried familiars or mounts to go with it. I am not one for arbitrary rulings by individual Pitlords about when it does and doesn't work, I can't write proper tactics that way. I happen to agree with you....but until such time as Cat makes a ruling like that, unfortunately, that is how it has to be played, because that is how it is written.
Usurpator 11-18-05, 05:01 PM	I happen to agree with you....but until such time as Cat makes a ruling like that, unfortunately, that is how it has to be played, because that is how it is written. Fair enough. I told Dracazar to do just that before I made my first post here, since my character happened to be in the 'Bob' position.
Snommelp 11-18-05, 07:44 PM	Hennan's anxious to find his parents and learn why they left him to be raised by a bunch of priests. I think it's time for him to go on a quest and find his mother.
TelinArtho 11-18-05, 08:24 PM	Well, I'm always open to do a quest. Just let me know if you are interested and any particulars (quest goal of an item/ally etc, EL of the quest, etc). Of course, I'd understand if you want to find someone else. You are, after all, one of my 4 player kills. [sheepish]
Iced 11-19-05, 01:10 AM	I can QL also.
One_Winged_Angel 11-19-05, 01:40 AM	I think the pupil's question on touch spells can be answered rather simply: the caster has to want to discharge the spell. Simple, really. Grappling is a sore spot for touch spells. I'm not sure where that stands.
Snommelp 11-19-05, 04:05 AM	Well, I'm always open to do a quest. Just let me know if you are interested and any particulars (quest goal of an item/ally etc, EL of the quest, etc). Of course, I'd understand if you want to find someone else. You are, after all, one of my 4 player kills. [sheepish] I'd love to have you as my Questlord, Telin. This quest is almost exclusively for RP purposes, so quest items are whatever you feel like giving an EL 4 bard, and I'll PM you with RP particulars. I'm one of your PKs? I didn't think I was...
Maraxus 11-19-05, 05:50 AM	...I think no matter what raw sais, humanoids - with the exception of those that have bite attacks - need to charge the touch spells into foot or hand. And if they put it in the food, they better deliver it imediatly, or it disharges into the ground. ...At least I would rule so in my P&P-group (tomorrow it starts again after abstinent monthes :)). In the CoCo, I will try to stay as RAW as possible - dispite any logic. Totally inconsistent with that, I say that it does not imediatly discharge when you get grappled. However, I say that once you are in the grapple, you no longer need to make a touch attack (that would be quite hard with the -4 penalty you get when attacking in a grapple ;)). And I don't know, if this is core or not, but you can also deliver the charge with a real attack (however, then you have to beat the whole AC and it does not discharge, if you land between the AC and touch-AC. - For whatever reason). But how would that be with trips and grapples? If you are charged and then start a grapple, will/can the charge be delivered with the initial touch attack? I think so. Definitly not to bad, since most casters won't want to try grapples or trips anyway. - Maybe except for half-giant-psi-warriors.
Vathelokai 11-19-05, 06:02 AM	A monk with one sorcerer level and shocking grasp and chill touch is something I've considered a couple times. I tried it in a tabletop game once, but I don't know how well it would work in a RAW environment.
Usurpator 11-19-05, 06:56 AM	And I don't know, if this is core or not, but you can also deliver the charge with a real attack (however, then you have to beat the whole AC and it does not discharge, if you land between the AC and touch-AC. - For whatever reason). That is correct, which adds another conflict with the 'it discharges as soon as you touch anything or anyone, intentionally or unintentionally' rule. I think they put in the 'unintentional discharge' rule in there just to prevent people from walking around charged with such spells indefinitely. They should have said instead: touch spells dissipate by themselves if not use within an hour of casting. Original text: Holding the Charge: If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge. My proposal is to either scrap the offending line or replace it with: If you don't use it within one hour after casting, the touch spell dissipates. Scrapping the offending line solves all problems quickly and neatly, and we don't even have to make up rules about charging particular appendages with the touch spell or wonder what happens in grapples.
Stormwind 11-19-05, 11:09 AM	What is the story with augmenting tattoo's/crawling tattoo's? What does it cost? Does it cost credits?
Gonbow 11-19-05, 02:08 PM	What is the story with augmenting tattoo's/crawling tattoo's? What does it cost? Does it cost credits? Crawling Tattoos: As per the cost in the SRD. Augmented Tattoos: Cost credits, and are subject to the 'augmented power' increase in power-level cost, as per the CC FAQ.
Gonbow 11-19-05, 02:13 PM	I have a silly question. Armor spikes aren't listed as a magic weapon type in the random table for magic weaopns in the DMG. Would this mean in order to get Armor Spikes +1 I would have to pay 5o for a custom item with different bonuses or 15o for custom permanent item? Nope. Good question, but something doesn't HAVE to be on the random weapon list to be a potential magical weapon. It just has to be a weapon. There are a few other weapons that arn't on the list, iirc.
Book5 11-19-05, 02:19 PM	Savage Species states that natural weapons replace improve unarmed strike as a prerequiste for all feats. Is this support core? No. Is it logical? Yes. Is it consistent how it is done in every single place I've ever seen or played in, including here? Yes. Agree: Yes, and ... The answer to this is very simple, these improved grapple feats are monster-feats, deriving from the monster's hit-dice. They don't need any prerequesites. Sloisl has a list of rule-questions, he pointed that clear some months ago. Not only is Imp Grapple not a monster feat - your thinking of Imp grab... no ple. No, this is not true. Only racial bonus feats don't have to meet prerequisites and they are marked with a 'B' to show it. Normal feats from hit dice still have to meet prerequisites. As an example, they put out eratta changing all the Weapon Finesse feats for creatures without a BAB of +1 to racial bonus feats. KerlanRayne You can also give astral constructs imp grapple w/out any sort of rec as well. I say if its logical and acceptable to allow any creature with natural weapons to be treated (for feat aquisition and use) as "improved unarmed strike" - then (similar to the druid that takes flyby attack and can only use it in some forms - or the ebberon flying city feats) you should also be able to take deflect arrows but only be able to use it when your "natural weapons" deal lethal damage (w/out penalty). Basically buy gauntlets, or magic fang, or poly morph, or someother wacky nonesense.
Snommelp 11-19-05, 02:57 PM	I say if its logical and acceptable to allow any creature with natural weapons to be treated (for feat aquisition and use) as "improved unarmed strike" - then (similar to the druid that takes flyby attack and can only use it in some forms - or the ebberon flying city feats) you should also be able to take deflect arrows but only be able to use it when your "natural weapons" deal lethal damage (w/out penalty). Basically buy gauntlets, or magic fang, or poly morph, or someother wacky nonesense.I don't like this idea; every character would just buy gauntlets at the start and be able to Deflect Arrows. Completely removes the option of an archer build. Instead, I propose essentially what we have been doing: if your unarmed strike deals lethal damage without artificial enhancement (e.g. gauntlets, magic fang, etc.) then you may take feats that require Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite.
One_Winged_Angel 11-19-05, 03:11 PM	Ok, for the last time, GAUNTLETS ARE NOT NATURAL WEAPONS!!! ... OK, now that that is settled, I think that in order to attain the prereques for a feat, you would need to be able to have the prereques for the feat for 24 hours during a day. This is why you can buy an item to get you +2 to a score to meet the prereques for a feat, but you can't cast bull's strength just before you level up and get the feat. Arguably, unarmed strikes are not natural weapons since they draw attacks of opportunity, so they would not be subject to magic fang. I've never seen anyone do this unless they were a monk, and since the PHB had to go out of the way to make sure that everyone saw the monk's unarmed strike treated as a natural weapon, this implies that a regular unarmed strike is not considered a natural nor manufactured weapon.
Gonbow 11-19-05, 03:11 PM	Gauntlets are NOT natural weapons and are NOT unarmed strikes. They are listed on the table next to unarmed strikes, but the FAQ has stated SEVERAL times that they are not unarmed strikes and cannot be used in conjunction with them/etc. But yes, every gladiator with natural weapons can get deflect arrows and not have to worry too much about archers. This is why Lortavos is picking up Deflect arrows soon ;)
NiQil 11-19-05, 03:19 PM	Gauntlets are NOT natural weapons and are NOT unarmed strikes. They are listed on the table next to unarmed strikes, but the FAQ has stated SEVERAL times that they are not unarmed strikes and cannot be used in conjunction with them/etc. But yes, every gladiator with natural weapons can get deflect arrows and not have to worry too much about archers. This is why Lortavos is picking up Deflect arrows soon ;) And on the flipside, that is why any archer worth his salt will have Rapid Shot by 3rd level. Hence that whole pesky balance thing. LOL
Snommelp 11-19-05, 03:59 PM	Stone of Vigor ML 5 grants how much HP? 25?
NiQil 11-19-05, 04:04 PM	Stone of Vigor ML 5 grants how much HP? 25? Yep....for a whole boatload of cash...
Book5 11-19-05, 04:06 PM	Ok, for the last time, GAUNTLETS ARE NOT NATURAL WEAPONS!!! ... OK, now that that is settled, I think that in order to attain the prereques for a feat, you would need to be able to have the prereques for the feat for 24 hours during a day. This is why you can buy an item to get you +2 to a score to meet the prereques for a feat, but you can't cast bull's strength just before you level up and get the feat. Arguably, unarmed strikes are not natural weapons since they draw attacks of opportunity, so they would not be subject to magic fang. I've never seen anyone do this unless they were a monk, and since the PHB had to go out of the way to make sure that everyone saw the monk's unarmed strike treated as a natural weapon, this implies that a regular unarmed strike is not considered a natural nor manufactured weapon. one more time NATURAL WEAPONS ARE NOT IMPROVED UNARMED STRIKE! No where in the MM does it say that. It says so in Savage secies sure, but that aint core. Its a house rule. I completely 100% dissagree with the 24hours a day deal. If you are armed with guantlets or magic fang (oops that one doesnt work but the gauntlets does) you do not provoke an aoo and you deal lethal (1d3) damage w/ your natural weapon. @touch conversation (fist only, not nose or tail or toe). If you can have ... gauntlets of ogre strength and use that to get a feat, lets say power attack. If you take your gauntlets off... you dont get the feat anymore. Same deal. With gauntlets on your natural weapon - fist - is "improved" to a normal lethal weapon. Me I let people take feats off a spell status now here is the big if. IF you take the house rule that allows characters with lethal damage natural weapons to be considered "as though they have the improved unarmed strike feat" Then you are just being contrary to say that a guantleted fist (that I can wear all goram day if I want to btw) doesnt have the same vital quality. The proper statment is - deal lethal damage with your natural weapons. Gauntlet: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets.
Book5 11-19-05, 04:08 PM	Gauntlets are NOT natural weapons and are NOT unarmed strikes. They are listed on the table next to unarmed strikes, but the FAQ has stated SEVERAL times that they are not unarmed strikes and cannot be used in conjunction with them/etc. But yes, every gladiator with natural weapons can get deflect arrows and not have to worry too much about archers. This is why Lortavos is picking up Deflect arrows soon ;) wrong sorry your wrong read the deffinition of guantlet again it should be right there :teach:
Snommelp 11-19-05, 04:13 PM	Yep....for a whole boatload of cash... Thanks, NiQil. In other news, my e-mail provider is acting all slow again...
Book5 11-19-05, 04:23 PM	I don't like this idea; every character would just buy gauntlets at the start and be able to Deflect Arrows. Completely removes the option of an archer build. Instead, I propose essentially what we have been doing: if your unarmed strike deals lethal damage without artificial enhancement (e.g. gauntlets, magic fang, etc.) then you may take feats that require Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite. Whats the big deal with "artificial enhancement" ? I wasnt suggesting that the deflect arrows be given to anyone with gauntlets.. by "can" I mean "can take the feat." Not everybody would - particularly at 3rd - so the archers are not "negated" Honestly - I am of the opinion that you can take any feat at any level but without the req being met - your just not able to gain any benifits till you meet the req. Leadership at 1st? No problem!! ... You cant have a cohort but you can write the feat down on your sheet :D .... not really pertinant, but when making intricate builds .. it has comeup before.
One_Winged_Angel 11-19-05, 04:30 PM	one more time NATURAL WEAPONS ARE NOT IMPROVED UNARMED STRIKE! Ok, then explain why a bear would take improved unarmed strike? Please, I'm eager to hear your explination as to why a bear would waste a feat to deal lethal damage with an unarmed attack. Or for that matter, why would a Bebilith have improved grapple listed as a feat if it needed to meet the improved unarmed strike prerequisite? No where in the MM does it say that. It says so in Savage secies sure, but that aint core. Its a house rule. I completely 100% dissagree with the 24hours a day deal. If you are armed with guantlets or magic fang (oops that one doesnt work but the gauntlets does) you do not provoke an aoo and you deal lethal (1d3) damage w/ your natural weapon. @touch conversation (fist only, not nose or tail or toe). Ok, lemme change that to 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. And the gauntlet does not work. If you really want to prove it, tell me where it says you are treated as having a feat when you are armed with a gauntlet. If not, your argument holds no weight. If you can have ... gauntlets of ogre strength and use that to get a feat, lets say power attack. If you take your gauntlets off... you dont get the feat anymore. Same deal. With gauntlets on your natural weapon - fist - is "improved" to a normal lethal weapon. Me I let people take feats off a spell status According to the almighty Cat, yes, you can buy items that enhance ability scores to get a feat, but if you lose them, you lose the feat. And if you seriously let your players take feats off spell status, I would think this is kinda a strange thing for you to argue. now here is the big if. IF you take the house rule that allows characters with lethal damage natural weapons to be considered "as though they have the improved unarmed strike feat" Then you are just being contrary to say that a guantleted fist (that I can wear all goram day if I want to btw) doesnt have the same vital quality. The proper statment is - deal lethal damage with your natural weapons. Gauntlet: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets. Ok, we are not saying that if you can deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike, we are saying if you have a natural weapon. BIIIIIIIG DIFFERENCE.
NiQil 11-19-05, 04:35 PM	Whats the big deal with "artificial enhancement" ? I wasnt suggesting that the deflect arrows be given to anyone with gauntlets.. by "can" I mean "can take the feat." Not everybody would - particularly at 3rd - so the archers are not "negated" Honestly - I am of the opinion that you can take any feat at any level but without the req being met - your just not able to gain any benifits till you meet the req. Leadership at 1st? No problem!! ... You cant have a cohort but you can write the feat down on your sheet :D .... not really pertinant, but when making intricate builds .. it has comeup before. As Gonbow and Snommelp stated....gauntlets are not unarmed strikes, and therefore do not allow you to qualify for any feats that need IUS as a prereq. Also, your opinion is totally against the RAW, as it is stated here... Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite. A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite. ...that you must meet the prereq's to take a feat. So no, you would not be able to even take Leadership at 1st level, to borrow your example. The RAW is clear on this, and it is also clear that gauntlets are weapons that allow you to deal lethal instead of non-lethal damage with an unarmed attack.
Iced 11-19-05, 05:12 PM	You need the improved unarmed strike feat to take deflect arrows. Putting on some gauntlets doesn't grant you that feat. Its the same as a half-giant's powerful build, it grants you many of the characteristics of being large, but your character is still medium size. (And doesn't have wings if its also half dragon :rolleyes: )
LLMadCow 11-19-05, 05:57 PM	You guys are awesome! I've enjoyed reading some good arguements. By 'good arguements' I mean stubborn and obnoxious. It reminds me of the Elder debates back in the day. Keep up the good work. :) LLMC
Book5 11-19-05, 07:07 PM	You guys are awesome! I've enjoyed reading some good arguements. By 'good arguements' I mean stubborn and obnoxious. It reminds me of the Elder debates back in the day. Keep up the good work. :) LLMC Just call me "troll on a leash" As Gonbow and Snommelp stated....gauntlets are not unarmed strikes, and therefore do not allow you to qualify for any feats that need IUS as a prereq. Also, your opinion is totally against the RAW, as it is stated here... I know my example with Leadership is off the hook, but nonetheless it was an aside - lets return to the issue in hand. My explanation. Failure to clarify. Improved unarmed strike is the ability to deal lethal damage with your unarmed strike. You people are declaring rather vehemently that any creature capable of dealing lethal damage with their unarmed strike are able to take the feats that require improved unarmed strike. This is a very logical statment - Im simply saying that you are stopping short of the equally logical conclusion. /shift - work (im at work right now shhh) :news: [shift - shhh Things that a weapon does that gauntlet doesnt - get disarmed - interfer with using other weapons - prevent casting - draw/ready/sheath timing Things that gauntlets do that weapons dont - get listed in the armor table - state "considered an unarmed strike" in the item description There is a thing called symbolic logic - its related to set theory if anyone is familiar. In this formalized system there are a series of functions (if->then stuff) that allow you to operate on the whole premise and conclusion deal pretty elegantly. One of those rules says that when two premesis become conflicting you can can change/remove/add a premise. C - we both have created a new premise - see them side by side below P? - ??? P1 - Local GM always has final say P2 - Every monster in the SRD is written correctly and only the errata say differently. P3 - Every Feat is written correctly and only the errata say differently - recs for (feats in question) are not met by a monster - we can now make or break any premise to reconstitute the logical arrangement - rational thought leads to multiple possibilities. 1 The beblith and the barbed demon should be in the errata (sub imp. grab ) 2 Possesing (or magically emulating ) [the ability] is equal to the feat 3 Possesing (items granting ) [the ability] is equal to the feat. When those two stances are stood by this, Possesing an item granting [the ability modifier] is equal to [the ability modifier] ... my opinion is clear. Im not saying that i disagree that lethal natural attack should be the name of imp unarmed but "lethal natural attack" should be the reqirement of the feats effected as well, and gauntlets (half plate, chain mail, scale mail, etc ) grant you the ability to make lethal natural attacks. You hands - still capable of every single thing they were before you put the metal gloves on - are now a lethal weapon. Your fists - not your gloves. I wanna get rational here for a seconf -- I dont think bears would take deflect arrow - but I dont think they should have to take it anymore than anyone else - there are few places where RAW does that to you. This is not one of them. Either there was a mistake in the books - or savage species did it right... and I type that without going crosseyed so... nonetheless - anything that has the ability to deal lethal damage with one of their primary manipulators is capable of taking the feats in question. We both agree on that, the stickler seems to be the exclusion - but you can emulate prerequisites all over the palace, magic items make you smart enough to combat expertise - permanancy could cost you a feat - rage makes you strong enough to cleave - polymorph/wildshape allows you to deflect arrows - why cant gauntlets? Same basic premise - I can practice with the item equiped and emulate the ability enough to qualify for the feat when I have it - be it natural weapon, movement mode, or an intelligence bonus! Be it from magical or non-magical equipment - YOU STILL TAKE IT OFF SOMETIMES! And just to reiterate - I could, if I. felt. like. it. say that my character - never takes off his gauntlets. They were ... ummm screwed!! yeah.. into his arms. He suffers the penalties. Just the gauntlets won't cause that armor rest problem! He NEVER takes those things off! ... Do I get it now?
nightbanegod 11-19-05, 07:38 PM	off topic question..... psionic shot says expend focus, add +2d6 damage to ranged attacks... this can also be applied to ranged ray powers, if im correct and rays can be split with the split ray feat targeting two rays instead of one, if you have the stored psionic focus in your psi crystal can you then use psionic shot and subsequently split said ray for effectively +2d6 to both rays... it is manifesting only one power that is being augmented in 2 different ways that dont overlap (for example; maximized and empored) ? i believe that if you fire two rays and use psionic shot that they should stack... is there anything that says otherwise? granted this would requre SEVERAL feats to accomplish...
Book5 11-19-05, 07:39 PM	off topic question..... I do believe so. But I didnt look.
One_Winged_Angel 11-19-05, 09:12 PM	You guys are awesome! I've enjoyed reading some good arguements. By 'good arguements' I mean stubborn and obnoxious. It reminds me of the Elder debates back in the day. Keep up the good work. :) LLMC Personally, I'm hoping this isn't another Improved Natural attack debate. That one sucked... @Book5: The gauntlet argument, the magic fang argument, and the generic item arguments are still not valid. I asked you to look up where it says you are treated as having Improved Unarmed Strike. Unless you do, you do not have a natural attack. Natural Weapons: Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons.... Attacks with secondary natural weapons are less effective and are made with a –5 penalty on the attack roll, no matter how many there are. (Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a –2 penalty on secondary attacks.) This penalty applies even when the creature makes a single attack with the secondary weapon as part of the attack action or as an attack of opportunity. Why unarmed attacks are not physical weapons allowing you to use Magic Fang on yourself: 1) You draw an attack of opportunity. 2) You gain additional unarmed strikes per level. 3) You are not considered armed with unarmed strikes. Issues with the Gauntlet: 1) Not physically a part of you. 2) Yes you are considered armed, but only with the equipment. 3) You gain additional attacks with high BAB from a gauntlet or unarmed Strike. 4) You cannot make an additional unarmed attack with a gauntlet unless you have taken two weapon fighting and are holding a one handed weapon. Despite the fact that you believe the Bebilith and Horned Devil need to be errata'd, the fact is that they are not and the example (no matter how it turns out) is there. ...We seem to have our fair share of issues with Natural Weapons, don't we?
Gonbow 11-19-05, 10:40 PM	Re: Natural weapons vs Improved Unarmed Strike Not only do we have examples in the monster manual.. but we have an official, sanctioned, cannon, etc WoTC book stating that natural weapon > need for improved unarmed strike feat. (Said book may not be core, but as this relates to core mechanics... I think we should follow its lead) How much clearer does the issue need to be? Re: Gauntlets It seems I was incorrect. I recalled the section on monks in the FAQ covering the use of gauntlets and disavowing them; as this allows monks to enchant their fists rather readily. But I cannot find hair nor hide of this statement in 3.5 (perhaps in 3rd edition, but I did not delve into the old FAQs). So, they are unarmed strikes; But they are not the same as having the feat improved unarmed strike, imho. I would personally suggest that they not be considered such for the purpose of feats; but that is merely my personal suggestion. The weight of fact is in the hands of the elders of this board.
Book5 11-19-05, 10:59 PM	Personally, I'm hoping this isn't another Improved Natural attack debate. That one sucked... Actually she is talking about what were talking about. Quote me something (other than the two outsiders) that says you can substitute having a lethal natural weapon for the feat imp unarmed strike. I dont want Savage species "reason" or hearsay - I want an actual rule statment. As far as that deffinition of Natural Weapons how, pray tell, do you syncronize it with the description of gauntlets? AND still say that Unarmed Strike is not a natural weapon. Gauntlet: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets. This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage ... WITH UNARMED STRIKES. Right there OWA in black on brown!@! A gauntlet transforms your unarmed strike into a lethal weapon... gauntlets are NOT a weapon in and of themselves. AND!! Why unarmed attacks are not physical weapons allowing you to use Magic Fang on yourself: blah Sorry OWA... you loose. Look first. If you cant cast Magic Fang on your Unarmed strike... um.. then what is this doing in the spell's description??? "(The spell does not change an unarmed strike’s damage from nonlethal damage to lethal damage.)" Hmmmm? Care to explain how that bear turd got into the woodpulp? Let me TRY this again. I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH USING LETHAL NATURAL ATTACKS AS IMPROVED UNARMED STRIKE I DO DECLARE, HOWEVER, THAT RAW STATES GAUNTLETS MAKE YOUR NATURAL ATTACK LETHAL WHEN WORN following from those two premis and one more EMULATING A STR SCORE VIA AN ITEM QUALIFIES YOU FOR STR BASED REQUISITES EVEN THOUGH ITS NOT AN INNATE ABILITY Lead to an undeniably logical conclusion that I can take the feat deflect arrow and only be able to use the ability while wearing gauntlets, charged with a lethal touch spell (use of the feat in this case will discharge the ability), produce flame, etc. Anything that makes your natural attack (called by some the "unarmed strike" similar in many ways to the bash and slam natural attacks) a lethal attack - spell, item, or blood - generates the potential to have the ability in question. I get this feeling there is a problem here with "conditional feats" but take this statment out of the Ranger class description: quote=SRD "The benefits of the ranger’s chosen style apply only when he wears light or no armor. He loses all benefits of his combat style when wearing medium or heavy armor." Hey Look right there - a feat/ability that is dependant on what nonmagical armor you are wearing... gauntlets are armor that come w/ a special trait that makes you natural attack lethal. Are you getting were Im coming from yet? I mean I understand that you were arguing from a misunderstanding of what/how the object/armor "gauntlets" actually do. Now that I have cleared that up does my logic make sense now? 1) Not physically a part of you. neither is a ring of bull's strength... 2) Yes you are considered armed, but only with the equipment. wrong you are considerd to wielding an unarmed strike... how many fing times to I have to quote the item description?? 3) You gain additional attacks with high BAB from a gauntlet or unarmed Strike. I 100% totally and completeatly do not understand the point of this statment Thats probably because you are arguing from the mistaken conception that gauntlets are actually weapons when they are not they are items/armor w/ special features. 4) You cannot make an additional unarmed attack with a gauntlet unless you have taken two weapon fighting and are holding a one handed weapon. Yes... you can.. where does it say you cant??? touchbase - I love arguments like this. I know my position and I know it well. My opponents are standing on quicksand and dont bother to check their sources. Go on. Oh! Gonbow! @gonbow 600,000 times clearer. Savage species is a piece of trip, and 3.0 for that matter. The two monsters in the SRD are exceptions not examples, but thank you for seeing the sequence of my logic "so fairly," if not that "gratuitously.." yeah that was a stretch of a refrence to the elder discussion of mercs/rep.
Gonbow 11-20-05, 12:39 AM	off topic question..... psionic shot says expend focus, add +2d6 damage to ranged attacks... this can also be applied to ranged ray powers, if im correct and rays can be split with the split ray feat targeting two rays instead of one, if you have the stored psionic focus in your psi crystal can you then use psionic shot and subsequently split said ray for effectively +2d6 to both rays... it is manifesting only one power that is being augmented in 2 different ways that dont overlap (for example; maximized and empored) ? i believe that if you fire two rays and use psionic shot that they should stack... is there anything that says otherwise? granted this would requre SEVERAL feats to accomplish... Yes, even the most strictest of readings of the Psionic Shot feat would agree with this (IMHO, RAW, Psionic Shot applies to any non-touch spell that deals damage... others insist that you need an attack roll), it does apply to ray powers/spells. Indeed, this is exactly what the split ray feat does. I'm afraid not. Psionic Shot has to be expended on one of the rays, not both, because as they are split and now require /two/ attack rolls, they are /two/ seperate attacks, see. The PS will only apply to one of the two. EDIT: @gonbow 600,000 times clearer. Savage species is a piece of trip, and 3.0 for that matter. The two monsters in the SRD are exceptions not examples, but thank you for seeing the sequence of my logic "so fairly," if not that "gratuitously.." yeah that was a stretch of a refrence to the elder discussion of mercs/rep. That is why there is SS questions in the 3.5 FAQ, eh? Given, its not as polished as the other 3.5 works, and most properly belongs in the '3.25' category, it was written at the same time as the 3.5 base books. It's not SS 'logic' that I'm saying, but a clear, unequivacal statement that I am qouting. What is this statement you ask? Deflect Arrows: Monsters often have natural weapons and do not need Improved Unarmed Strike, the prerequisite for this this one. Granted, monsters casually swatting arrows out of the air are frightening, but most are better off achieving this ability through adding two levels of monk. Second Edit: I'm remaking Terminus-Est (Xeph Soulknife), as a slightly different character.. a dretch! And a mechincally themed one at that. (A Berserker, if there are any Saberhagen fans here) It'll be a week or two before I have the 4 credits to add to my menagrie of highly unusual characters, but in the mean time, if anyone would like to look him(it) over, ignoring the clearly unfinished portions or perhaps give suggestions, it would be appreciated. His character sheet is here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6576080&postcount=316).
One_Winged_Angel 11-20-05, 01:31 AM	Actually she is talking about what were talking about. It's an old joke...We had a thread with around 10 pages or so on whether or not monks could take improved natural attack. This was before the FAQ clarified it. Quote me something (other than the two outsiders) that says you can substitute having a lethal natural weapon for the feat imp unarmed strike. I dont want Savage species "reason" or hearsay - I want an actual rule statment. Does it matter if it's only two outsiders? The premice is set. As far as that deffinition of Natural Weapons how, pray tell, do you syncronize it with the description of gauntlets? AND still say that Unarmed Strike is not a natural weapon. Gauntlet: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets. I say that unarmed strike is not a natural weapon for the same reason that monks need a very special description in their unarmed strike to state that it is a natural weapon. The reason is thus: it does not fulfil the criteria for a natural weapon. Gauntets are weapons. Manufactured weapons. You pay to buy them. You take them on and off. You can enchant them with magic weapon, but not magic fang. Pray tell me how in the world you are arguing they are natural attacks. This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage ... WITH UNARMED STRIKES. So...what's your point. So does the feat IUS. Right there OWA in black on brown!@! A gauntlet transforms your unarmed strike into a lethal weapon... gauntlets are NOT a weapon in and of themselves. +1 Gauntlet. +1 Flaming Gauntlet. +1 Flaming Unarmed strike?!?!? No, trust me. They are weapons in and of themselves. AND!! Sorry OWA... you loose. Look first. If you cant cast Magic Fang on your Unarmed strike... um.. then what is this doing in the spell's description??? Does it say gauntlet anywhere? "(The spell does not change an unarmed strike’s damage from nonlethal damage to lethal damage.)" Hmmmm? Care to explain how that bear turd got into the woodpulp? Hmm...I see it does not change anything. I do not see it changing a gauntlet into an natural weapon. Heck, I don't see it turning a regular unarmed strike into a natural weapon. Let me TRY this again. I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH USING LETHAL NATURAL ATTACKS AS IMPROVED UNARMED STRIKE I DO DECLARE, HOWEVER, THAT RAW STATES GAUNTLETS MAKE YOUR NATURAL ATTACK LETHAL WHEN WORN Lemme list again why you cannot have an unarmed strike as a natural weapon: 1) It does not threaten anything. 2) You need to BUY a gauntlet to make it lethal. It is a manufactured weapon, not a natural one. following from those two premis and one more EMULATING A STR SCORE VIA AN ITEM QUALIFIES YOU FOR STR BASED REQUISITES EVEN THOUGH ITS NOT AN INNATE ABILITY Lead to an undeniably logical conclusion that I can take the feat deflect arrow and only be able to use the ability while wearing gauntlets, charged with a lethal touch spell (use of the feat in this case will discharge the ability), produce flame, etc. Anything that makes your natural attack (called by some the "unarmed strike" similar in many ways to the bash and slam natural attacks) a lethal attack - spell, item, or blood - generates the potential to have the ability in question. Hmmm...no. Still not enough evidence that a gauntlet is considered a natural weapon. Also, the prerequisite for Deflect arrows is improved unarmed strike. For someone without that feat they need a natural weapon. I get this feeling there is a problem here with "conditional feats" but take this statment out of the Ranger class description: quote=SRD "The benefits of the ranger’s chosen style apply only when he wears light or no armor. He loses all benefits of his combat style when wearing medium or heavy armor." Hey Look right there - a feat/ability that is dependant on what nonmagical armor you are wearing... gauntlets are armor that come w/ a special trait that makes you natural attack lethal. Are you getting were Im coming from yet? I mean I understand that you were arguing from a misunderstanding of what/how the object/armor "gauntlets" actually do. No, no and no! A ranger gets bonus feats as class abilities, which override and negate all former prerequisits. Gauntlets, are, for starters, not listed in armor, they are listed in weapons. They cost money. They can be enchanted as weapons, but they cannot be enchanted via magic fang. Now that I have cleared that up does my logic make sense now? Oh, I've always understood your logic. I just don't agree with it. 1) Not physically a part of you. neither is a ring of bull's strength... 2) Yes you are considered armed, but only with the equipment. wrong you are considerd to wielding an unarmed strike... how many fing times to I have to quote the item description?? 3) You gain additional attacks with high BAB from a gauntlet or unarmed Strike. I 100% totally and completeatly do not understand the point of this statment Thats probably because you are arguing from the mistaken conception that gauntlets are actually weapons when they are not they are items/armor w/ special features. 4) You cannot make an additional unarmed attack with a gauntlet unless you have taken two weapon fighting and are holding a one handed weapon. Yes... you can.. where does it say you cant??? 1) But you need it to be a part of you for it to be considered a "natural attack." Power attack only has the STR requisite, not a feat requisite. 2) You are not considered to be weilding anything if you have an ungauntleted or regular unarmed strike. Yes, you threaten and are considered to be armed with a gauntlet. Of course! They are manufactured weapons. 3) Lemme quote again: Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. Right there, as you said, in black and brown (well, white. I'm using Word...) 4) ...Book, that's a weak argument. It also doesn't say anywhere that I am not allowed to create a creature character with an LA of -. Is it allowed? Of course not! touchbase - I love arguments like this. I know my position and I know it well. My opponents are standing on quicksand and dont bother to check their sources. Go on. Oh! Gonbow! @gonbow 600,000 times clearer. Savage species is a piece of trip, and 3.0 for that matter. The two monsters in the SRD are exceptions not examples, but thank you for seeing the sequence of my logic "so fairly," if not that "gratuitously.." yeah that was a stretch of a refrence to the elder discussion of mercs/rep. I love arguments like this as well, although I would appreciate a tad more civility. Still, guess I gotta take it if I expect to give it, neh? :P Yes, although I've never used nor seen savage species, it's not hard to DL the 3.5 translations. Maybe I should do that and see if anythings changed. So, responses to the above? I'm actually getting kinda giddy. It's been a while since I've had a good, solid DnD rules debate. Lovin' it, Book5! Lovin' it!
KerlanRayne 11-20-05, 01:55 AM	Two small questions. Does wearing a gauntlet make you considered to be armed? Does it remove the fact that you draw an AoO for attacking? I don't see why you seem so stuck on the Lethal Damage thing. KerlanRayne
One_Winged_Angel 11-20-05, 01:57 AM	Two small questions. Does wearing a gauntlet make you considered to be armed? Does it remove the fact that you draw an AoO for attacking? I don't see why you seem so stuck on the Lethal Damage thing. KerlanRayne Yes, you are considered armed. It is a weapon, after all. No, you do not draw an attack of opp from attacking. Book seems convinced that as long as it deals lethal damage, it is a Natural weapon, which confuses me slightly, I must admit.
KerlanRayne 11-20-05, 02:04 AM	Yes, you are considered armed. Wrong It is a weapon, after all. Wrong No, you do not draw an attack of opp from attacking. WrongAll it does is make unarmed damage into lethal damage. KerlanRayne
One_Winged_Angel 11-20-05, 02:14 AM	All it does is make unarmed damage into lethal damage. KerlanRayne ...I think this is the first time having my argument proved wrong has given me more support in a larger debate.
LLMadCow 11-20-05, 03:31 AM	Can I ask for any TWO people to give me simple and concise summaries of what this lengthy debate is all about? I am looking for ONE reply from Side A and ONE reply from Side B. I can read through everything, but it is easier if both sides represent themselves, and I do not have to see all of the silly arguements and posturing. I'd like to weigh in with thoughts based on long standing rules, previous rules debates and Elder experience within the CoCo. (For those of you who do not know me as well, I was participating in the 'Arena' back before the CoCo had it's own board and was actually a part of the Min/Max Board, which is now called Character Optimization; I've seen all the debates, weighed in aon many and gotten fussed at a few times when things have gotten out of hand.) My current questions, in regard to the status of things relating to this debate, are as follows: Has anyone requested Elder/GM input thus far? If the answer to '1' is 'No', then I ask why? If the answer to '1' is 'Yes', then who has been asked and what was their response? [For Side A] What are you hoping to accomplish/prevent in this arguement? [For Side B] What are you hoping to accomplish/prevent in this arguement? Comments [ :teach: ] thus far: Quoting the SRD (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/home.html) is always useful and helps people to see what we are dealing with. As much as I am guilty of this, I have to say that TYPING WITH ALL CAPS ... or big font... doesn't really do much to help. It just makes you come off as an :censored:. Yes, I speak from experience and I have been an :censored: on more than one occassion. The use of Color, Bold, Underline and Italics can help to organize thoughts and link things together; find a style that works for you. Lastly, when debating, try to cover all of the bases. When ToK and I were having a lengthy debate [Read: Arguement], it wasn't until I covered all of the bases, that we were able to make any progress. I went around and around with various aspects of 'my side', and the end result was a rehashing of the same information. So, present a sound, well detailed arguement, and you stand a better chance of winning people over. Telling people that something is obviously an error and should be part of errata ... that doesn't do any good; maybe it is NEVER going to be errata and was intentionally put in the book for a very specific reason. Debate is a good thing, and I encourage it. Debates encourage knowledge and understanding, facilitate learning and motivate people to read the rules and gain a better grasp of how the system works. Have fun and play nice. LLMC/LLPL :twocents:
One_Winged_Angel 11-20-05, 04:01 AM	1) Can wearing gauntlets qualify for abilties/feats relating to improved unarmed strike. 2) No Elder participation, though Tellish threw in a few comments a while ago. 3) Ummm...because I started on this today? I was actually going to ask the elders, but I never got around to it. :blush: 4) Ummm...who is side A and B? :confused: a) One side is trying to say that you can. This would open up a lot of avenues for character builds basing off gauntlets. b) The other is saying that it is not allowed. They are arguing that it would destroy archer builds. Yes, I've seen debates. If this one ever gets too big, I'm guessing we will have our fair share of :censored: , a few :censored:, and maybe one or two :censored: As for saying someone is obviously in error...well, as you might see, I tend to prefer asking more questions. Not exactly nice or fair, but it confuses and befundles my opposition (Ah, debate team! How I miss the meetings!)
MystErikEry 11-20-05, 04:08 AM	I think the trouble is in what the SRD says about gauntlets: Gauntlet: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets. So from this, we can see that the gauntlet isn't actually useable as a weapon, itself, even though it's listed as a weapon. It actually simply makes your unarmed strike deal lethal damage. Notice that this isn't, by itself, going to allow you to take, for example, Improved Grapple. Improved Grapple has the requirement of a) having the feat "Improved Unarmed Strike" (which you do not), or b) having a natural weapon (as shown by the SRD monsters, and I believe clarified in a number of places non-Core). Reading the FAQ (which says that Monks can take Improved Natural Attack) clarifies what counts as a natural weapon. The FAQ says: As stated on page 41 of the Player’s Handbook, a monk’s unarmed strike “is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either” which includes feats such as Improved Natural Attack. As you can see, it is the specification that the Monk's unarmed strike is considered a natural weapon for effects that enhance or improve it, not the fact that the Monk does lethal damage with his Unarmed Strikes. As a result, a character wearing a gauntlet (and thus doing lethal damage with his Unarmed Strikes) does not qualify as having either Improved Unarmed Strike (which has a greater effect than just wearing a gauntlet has, actually; see below) nor a natural weapon. Also, it should be noted that a character wearing a gauntlet still provokes an attack of opportunity when attacking. It says that gauntlets simply make your Unarmed Strike do lethal damage, but otherwise considered an unarmed attack. What do we know about unarmed attacks as attacks? Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following: Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe. An unarmed character can’t take attacks of opportunity (but see “Armed” Unarmed Attacks, below). “Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed. Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity This all applies to gauntlets, which only have one difference from ordinary Unarmed Strikes, according to the section on gauntlets. Also, notice this: Gauntlet, Spiked: Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of spiked gauntlets. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. An attack with a spiked gauntlet is considered an armed attack. Notice the differences here. First, it mentions you cannot disarm spiked gauntlets. Does this mean you can disarm ordinary gauntlets? I'd say you can't, since you can't disarm the opponent of their unarmed strike (which is basically what the gauntlets count as) nor their armor (which is what gauntlets normally come with for free). Second, it doesn't mention anything about being like your Unarmed Strike; in fact, it specifically states that these are considered an armed attack, meaning you threaten with it as normal, deal lethal damage, and do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attack. It's also listed as a Light Weapon, rather than under "Unarmed Attacks." So, yeah. I'm not sure what everyone else is arguing about. The only thing that's strange is that creatures with natural weapons somehow qualify for feats as if they had Improved Unarmed Strike, which isn't anywhere in the Core Rules, as far as I know, hard-written, but rather is simply utilized for a couple of monsters and then never explained (and thus, it ought to be clarified in an official source, such as the FAQ or Errata...) , and so the only thing we can do, here, is say what our ruling on it is. We follow the examples provided in the MM, in that natural weapons allow one to qualify for feats as if one had Improved Unarmed Strike. *shrugs helplessly*
Vathelokai 11-20-05, 04:14 AM	This came up earlier, and I found it in the rules of the game articles. So, since we use RotG as a suplement, can we use this? Marking an Invisible Creature: Since a visible object stays visible when an invisible creature picks it up (at least until the invisible creature tucks the object into its clothing), you may make an invisible thing visible (or at least reveal its location) by dousing it with something visible. My own favorite device for doing this is a bag packed with about a pound of flour. You could just as easily use ink or paint. Toss the bag of flour just like a splash weapon. A direct hit leaves an invisible creature smeared with flour, which reveals the creature's location. An invisible creature caught in the flour's splash effect can attempt a Reflex save (DC 20) to avoid getting covered with flour. A creature can shed its outer clothing (at least a full-round action) and be rid of the flour. Otherwise, it must bathe or wait for the flour to wear off on its own (which takes an hour or two in dry conditions).
Usurpator 11-20-05, 04:28 AM	This whole gauntlets + deflect arrows argument is based on two faulty assumptions: 1. Wearing gauntlets is equivalent to Improved Unarmed Strike or Natural Attacks 2. Equivalent abilities should serve as prereq Both aren't true: 1. When wearing gauntlets you may inflict lethal damage with your unarmed attacks, but you still draw an AoO. As you can see, both are not equivalent. (IMO this reflects that you are not 'trained' in using your body as a weapon as creatures with Improved Unarmed Strike or natural weapons would be. It is the 'training' that is a requirement for Deflect Arrows, not the damage.) 2. Having 12 Str also gives you +1 to hit. Still, it cannot replace the +1 BAB requirement for certain feats even though it is equivalent. Equivalency alone is not sufficient. So even if wearing gauntlets is equivalent (which it isn't) it would't work.
Pittbull 11-20-05, 06:52 AM	Gauntlets: I support Usurpator, wearing guantlets seems no prerequesite for me for the feats. Bag of Flour: How much is it? What does it cost?
Macbrea 11-20-05, 07:41 AM	Gauntlets: I support Usurpator, wearing guantlets seems no prerequesite for me for the feats. Bag of Flour: How much is it? What does it cost? I also believe gauntlets aren't meant to be a prerequesite for the feats. Second question you will find in the definition of coins in the SRD a section on other items which could be considered wealth. 2 cp One pound of flour, or one chicken
Maraxus 11-20-05, 07:54 AM	Gauntlets: So we have that (normal) gauntlets do almost nothing, however spiked gauntlets make you armed. I have already considered give one of those to Zassl, however the questions I asked myself then were: Doesn't such a thing have to get you into problems with the somatic components of arcane spells? Or at least getting the fine material components out of this tiny belt-cases? Yes, I think that RAW, there is no diminution to your ability to twist your fingers, manipulate fine items or use stuff through gauntlets (not even with cumbersome spikes) (please verify), but can you really agree upon this with your role-playing conscience? ;) (PS: In no case, gauntlets are prerequires for feats.) (PPS: That floor stuff is not official, is it? *fears for his 2 invisibility-based characters*)
Ayrynthyn 11-20-05, 09:16 AM	re...invisibility thing. SRD - Special abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/naturalSpecialAbilities.htm#invisibility ) ... If an invisible character picks up a visible object, the object remains visible. One could coat an invisible object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour fell off or blew away). An invisible creature can pick up a small visible item and hide it on his person (tucked in a pocket or behind a cloak) and render it effectively invisible. Invisible creatures leave tracks. They can be tracked normally. Footprints in sand, mud, or other soft surfaces can give enemies clues to an invisible creature’s location. SRD - Wealth and Money (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/wealthAndMoney.htm) under the wealth other than coins... 2 cp One pound of flour, or one chicken Now if i could just find a price for my Bucket of Lard (re:Grease and its lovely +10 circumstance vs. grapple) ;)
Altaris13 11-20-05, 09:23 AM	Just a heads' up. I will be traveling as of Mondy night. I should have intermittent PC/net access and will post as opportunities present themselves.
Mind Rogue 11-20-05, 10:18 AM	Well, another source besides for Savage Species saying that natural weapons can be subbed for IUS is Oriental Adventures, towards the begining of the chapter dealing with monsters. Also, someone said that gauntlets don't interfere with spellcasting; that's not true. You cannot cast a spell with a gauntleted hand. Hmmm, apparently that might be incorrect... it only explicitely applies to locked gauntlets.
nightbanegod 11-20-05, 09:02 PM	ive got a question, what is the ruling on using the % discount skills on items you buy during character creation... since technically you could buy 1 item a week... could you effectively construct your character over time and get the % discount on all items?... any comments?
TelinArtho 11-20-05, 11:49 PM	Since it is a linked activity (meaning you need to link it on your character sheet) - I've always assumed it is not allowed during character creation. However, I admit I have not officially asked Cat about this.
Tellish_of_Ket 11-21-05, 01:40 AM	Since it is a linked activity (meaning you need to link it on your character sheet) - I've always assumed it is not allowed during character creation. However, I admit I have not officially asked Cat about this. Well, since you slapped Maven on the hands quite harshely for using her discount on items at character start up, and i agree though, you cannot begin with discounted equipment. Cat and I have both talked about it (during Maven's creation) and agree that since it's linked, you can only purchase them during play. -ToK
Ayrynthyn 11-21-05, 10:43 AM	Just a thought here....but Enterik hasn't been online in almost two weeks. With the guilds kicking off this week, I'm not sure if we can afford to let a guild fall behind so early. We might want to look at reassigning that to another volunteer....if one can be found. If not, that guild will be at a disadvantage until it is reassigned or Enterik comes back. Did anything ever come of this??
Stormwind 11-21-05, 12:55 PM	Regarding Psionic tattoo's: If you use a tattoo of a Power with a duration of Concentration (max). Then what is the actual duration? 1 round? Max rounds? As long the the wearer concentrates? For example: Tattoo of control air The Power of Control air is a second level power so could theoretically be placed in a tattoo. Now since the wearer is automatically the manifester and the target the range of the spell is irrelevant, however since it is not a crawling tattoo the area does come into play (area 50ft radius) which would mean that the effect of the tattoo could control the air for 50ft around you changing the wind speed by up to 10 miles per hour (preset when tattoo created). Now the duration of the power is (Concentration, up to 1 min/level). Since the creator of the tattoo makes all the decisions when the tattoo is created does this mean that the tattoo would last just one round? 3 minutes? As long as the wearer concentrates? Any ideas? Other interpretations?
Gonbow 11-21-05, 01:24 PM	Regarding Psionic tattoo's: If you use a tattoo of a Power with a duration of Concentration (max). Then what is the actual duration? 1 round? Max rounds? As long the the wearer concentrates? For example: Tattoo of control air The Power of Control air is a second level power so could theoretically be placed in a tattoo. Now since the wearer is automatically the manifester and the target the range of the spell is irrelevant, however since it is not a crawling tattoo the area does come into play (area 50ft radius) which would mean that the effect of the tattoo could control the air for 50ft around you changing the wind speed by up to 10 miles per hour (preset when tattoo created). Now the duration of the power is (Concentration, up to 1 min/level). Since the creator of the tattoo makes all the decisions when the tattoo is created does this mean that the tattoo would last just one round? 3 minutes? As long as the wearer concentrates? Any ideas? Other interpretations? The maximum duration of the tattoo is 3 minutes (minimum caster level for a 3rd level spell and thus the default for a second level spell). Wether or not the rules will allow the user to concentrate or not... is another question. I'm inclined to say that the rules won't let you, so the power would only last a single round.
Macbrea 11-21-05, 01:24 PM	Has anyone got the slots available to an animal anywhere? I am trying to figure out what magic item slots a Dire Weasel would be allowed in CoCo.
NiQil 11-21-05, 05:17 PM	A question about dwarves in heavy armor... Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations). From the above quote, dwarves always move at 20 ft, regardless of encumbrance. If a dwarf in full plate was given a way to increase his speed, such as boots of striding and springing, would his movememt then go up to 30, or would it stay at 20?
TheMagister 11-21-05, 05:24 PM	A question about dwarves in heavy armor... From the above quote, dwarves always move at 20 ft, regardless of encumbrance. If a dwarf in full plate was given a way to increase his speed, such as boots of striding and springing, would his movememt then go up to 30, or would it stay at 20? THIS I know the answer to: It would increase to 30 ft. because it was never decreased in the first place. TM
NiQil 11-21-05, 05:26 PM	THIS I know the answer to: It would increase to 30 ft. because it was never decreased in the first place. TM That's what I think as well....but with D&D's ways of applying bonuses and penalties, it would be 20 base + 10 enhancement from the boots, and then - 10 due to encumbrance, which would bring it back down to 20. That's why I'm stuck on this one....
Snommelp 11-21-05, 05:32 PM	That's what I think as well....but with D&D's ways of applying bonuses and penalties, it would be 20 base + 10 enhancement from the boots, and then - 10 due to encumbrance, which would bring it back down to 20. That's why I'm stuck on this one.... Except that the section on dwarven speed mentions "unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations." In other words, dwarven speed doesn't get reduced by armor or encumbrance.
Vathelokai 11-21-05, 05:33 PM	Has anyone got the slots available to an animal anywhere? I am trying to figure out what magic item slots a Dire Weasel would be allowed in CoCo. When looking through the rules of the game articles, I found this strange little thing called Wild Life (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031125a). It has new tricks, item slots, and some non core feats. The rules of the game archives on familiars also points out that most animals cannot open a potion, and their handler/master must open it for them.
Stormwind 11-21-05, 05:46 PM	The maximum duration of the tattoo is 3 minutes (minimum caster level for a 3rd level spell and thus the default for a second level spell). Wether or not the rules will allow the user to concentrate or not... is another question. I'm inclined to say that the rules won't let you, so the power would only last a single round. I was aware of the maximum duration of the Power, what I really want to know is whether a tattoo of a Power with a duration of Concentration will last for 1 round, for max rounds, or while the wearer continues to concentrate. I would also like to know why, that is, what part of the RAW covers this, as it is unclear to me. I agree with your inclination as that would be my feeling too. However I would like a definite clarification (not just my interpretation). The only thing that I have found that seems to cover this is: Psionic tattoos are designs scribed on the skin that manifest powers on their wearers. The wearer doesn’t get to make any decisions about the tattoo’s effect - the manifester who scribed it has already done so. and The user of the psionic tattoo is both the manifester and the target Thus as I mentioned before the target is already specified, but it is unclear to me as to what the other decisions that the scriber makes may be, including variable duration such as concentration.
Mal-2 11-21-05, 05:54 PM	When looking through the rules of the game articles, I found this strange little thing called Wild Life (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031125a). It has new tricks, item slots, and some non core feats. Sure, but that's not an allowed source for the arena. As far as I know, our allowed sources are: PHB, DMG, MM I, and the SRD. The D&D FAQ and the Rules of the Game articles are (usually) also used to clarify any rules there are questions about.
Macbrea 11-21-05, 05:55 PM	Those seem reasonable and inline with what wizards of the coast wants. As it is from the wizards website may I suggest we use the following rule for quadrupeds as per the encounters article? It would effect a few different character and such in CoCo. Animal Item Slots Although it's easy to imagine an animal benefiting from magic equipment beyond a simple saddle and a suit of barding, fitting a mount's physiology to the list of item slots available to characters is not an easy task. Try the following variant list of item slots for quadruped animals (and other monsters when appropriate). * One skull cap or helm * One pair of lenses or goggles * One collar * One saddle blanket or vest * One saddle or jacket * One belt or strap worn in front of or over the haunches * One pectoral or harness worn over the chest or shoulders * One pair foreleg bracers * One pair of foreleg shoes or mitts -- hoofed creatures wear shoes and creatures with paws wear mitts * Two rings -- creatures with toes wear rings on the toes and creatures with hooves wear "rings" just above fore hooves * One pair of hind leg shoes or mitts -- hoofed creatures wear shoes and creatures with paws wear mitts
Snommelp 11-22-05, 12:02 AM	The Multiattack feat from the MM reads (under "benefit"): "The creature's secondary attacks with natural weapons take only a -2 penalty." This would lead me to believe that if the primary attack is a weapon and the secondary natural, it still applies. However, the feat also says in the "flavor" text that "The creature is adept at using all its natural weapons at once," which implies that the primary attack needs to be natural for the feat to apply. Which is it?
Book5 11-22-05, 12:17 AM	whoooo boy did that take longer to get toandwrite than I was expecting when I left work the other day. Mind Rogue - Well, another source besides for Savage Species saying that natural weapons can be subbed for IUS is Oriental Adventures, towards the begining of the chapter dealing with monsters. Marxus - (PS: In no case, gauntlets are prerequires for feats.) Macbrea - I also believe gauntlets aren't meant to be a prerequesite for the feats. E Pittbull - Gauntlets: I support Usurpator, wearing guantlets seems no prerequesite for me for the feats. Usurpator - This whole gauntlets + deflect arrows argument is based on two faulty assumptions: 1. Wearing gauntlets is equivalent to Improved Unarmed Strike or Natural Attacks 2. Equivalent abilities should serve as prereq Both aren't true: 1. When wearing gauntlets you may inflict lethal damage with your unarmed attacks, but you still draw an AoO. As you can see, both are not equivalent. (IMO this reflects that you are not 'trained' in using your body as a weapon as creatures with Improved Unarmed Strike or natural weapons would be. It is the 'training' that is a requirement for Deflect Arrows, not the damage.) 2. Having 12 Str also gives you +1 to hit. Still, it cannot replace the +1 BAB requirement for certain feats even though it is equivalent. Equivalency alone is not sufficient. So even if wearing gauntlets is equivalent (which it isn't) it would't work. MystErikEry - I think the trouble is in what the SRD says about gauntlets: Quote: Originally Posted by SRD Gauntlet: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets. So from this, we can see that the gauntlet isn't actually useable as a weapon, itself, even though it's listed as a weapon. It actually simply makes your unarmed strike deal lethal damage. Notice that this isn't, by itself, going to allow you to take, for example, Improved Grapple. Improved Grapple has the requirement of a) having the feat "Improved Unarmed Strike" (which you do not), or b) having a natural weapon (as shown by the SRD monsters, and I believe clarified in a number of places non-Core). Reading the FAQ (which says that Monks can take Improved Natural Attack) clarifies what counts as a natural weapon. The FAQ says: Quote: Originally Posted by FAQ As stated on page 41 of the Player’s Handbook, a monk’s unarmed strike “is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either” which includes feats such as Improved Natural Attack. As you can see, it is the specification that the Monk's unarmed strike is considered a natural weapon for effects that enhance or improve it, not the fact that the Monk does lethal damage with his Unarmed Strikes. As a result, a character wearing a gauntlet (and thus doing lethal damage with his Unarmed Strikes) does not qualify as having either Improved Unarmed Strike (which has a greater effect than just wearing a gauntlet has, actually; see below) nor a natural weapon. Also, it should be noted that a character wearing a gauntlet still provokes an attack of opportunity when attacking. It says that gauntlets simply make your Unarmed Strike do lethal damage, but otherwise considered an unarmed attack. What do we know about unarmed attacks as attacks? Quote: Originally Posted by SRD Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following: Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe. An unarmed character can’t take attacks of opportunity (but see “Armed” Unarmed Attacks, below). “Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed. Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity This all applies to gauntlets, which only have one difference from ordinary Unarmed Strikes, according to the section on gauntlets. Also, notice this: Quote: Originally Posted by SRD Gauntlet, Spiked: Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of spiked gauntlets. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. An attack with a spiked gauntlet is considered an armed attack. Notice the differences here. First, it mentions you cannot disarm spiked gauntlets. Does this mean you can disarm ordinary gauntlets? I'd say you can't, since you can't disarm the opponent of their unarmed strike (which is basically what the gauntlets count as) nor their armor (which is what gauntlets normally come with for free). Second, it doesn't mention anything about being like your Unarmed Strike; in fact, it specifically states that these are considered an armed attack, meaning you threaten with it as normal, deal lethal damage, and do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attack. It's also listed as a Light Weapon, rather than under "Unarmed Attacks." So, yeah. I'm not sure what everyone else is arguing about. The only thing that's strange is that creatures with natural weapons somehow qualify for feats as if they had Improved Unarmed Strike, which isn't anywhere in the Core Rules, as far as I know, hard-written, but rather is simply utilized for a couple of monsters and then never explained (and thus, it ought to be clarified in an official source, such as the FAQ or Errata...) , and so the only thing we can do, here, is say what our ruling on it is. We follow the examples provided in the MM, in that natural weapons allow one to qualify for feats as if one had Improved Unarmed Strike. *shrugs helplessly* OWA - Correct in spirit 1) Can wearing gauntlets qualify for abilties/feats relating to improved unarmed strike. 2) No Elder participation, though Tellish threw in a few comments a while ago. 3) Ummm...because I started on this today? I was actually going to ask the elders, but I never got around to it. 4) Ummm...who is side A and B? a) One side is trying to say that you can. This would open up a lot of avenues for character builds basing off gauntlets. b) The other is saying that it is not allowed. They are arguing that it would destroy archer builds. Yes, I've seen debates. If this one ever gets too big, I'm guessing we will have our fair share of , a few , and maybe one or two As for saying someone is obviously in error...well, as you might see, I tend to prefer asking more questions. Not exactly nice or fair, but it confuses and befundles my opposition (Ah, debate team! How I miss the meetings!) LLMadCow - Concerned for obvious reasons My current questions, in regard to the status of things relating to this debate, are as follows: Has anyone requested Elder/GM input thus far? I consider Tavern Talk equivalent. *shrug* If the answer to '1' is 'No', then I ask why? If the answer to '1' is 'Yes', then who has been asked and what was their response? Well, I figure there is a ruling but I have seen the ruling on a table before. I know what responce I would have gotten from an Elder "This is the call we made" - The only way to rehash the issue was to start a little bit of a fire. = Thanks OWA, we should do this again sometime. [For Side A] What are you hoping to accomplish/prevent in this arguement? Since I respond last I will put OWA as team A, and well keep reading you'll see. Retention of made call. Conservative adherence to a stable and functional rule. - To put it one way. [For Side B] What are you hoping to accomplish/prevent in this arguement? Thats me, heres where everything gets going! Lets \lll/ shall we? Book5 - "Cut me some Slack" Points to consider DISmissed Taking feats w/out even conditionally meeting the pre-recs. This is a house rule that leads to unpleasant results .... as far as "optimization" goes. Any Lord/Master worth his salt can take your tool away from you. Sometimes it takes a beholder's eye, but its always doable. Attack's that use guantlets are "Armed" Thank you! MystErikEry! This is a simple issue that shouldnt be confusing. 10 pages of argument went by to make sure we only needed two this time. Gauntlets Serve as the prereq for deflect arrow Ok not gauntlets, BUT alter self should! My Question: Where is the precedant/explanation for using ability score increasing items for reqs? My Intent To clarify what is happening for myself and others. As with the instrument debalacle I have found what I was missing - and OWA has learned something as well. Also, :smirk: I've been lookin for a good excuse to hackoff nuthing...personal....but I have this week off...... SO sue me. OWA's persistant refusal to accept my explanation regarding step one of my argument (guantlets = unarmed strike) fueled a trollish rage... :P @ OWA. Note: I will be making a character that benifits from this if it passes mustard. [/b] The Logic play P=premise, G(PX)=generated from premise X C1 - All creatures (Bats and Frogs) have access to an unarmed strike - but animals are not proficent with them (-4 nonproficiency penalty). P1 The SRD is not wrong, the faq/errata says so. Skip williams gave particular personal attention to the beblith so I doubt improved grapple was a mistake. P2 The feats in question require you to have an "armed" natural attack. ??? P3 You can use items to conditionally serve the prerequisites for any feat/PrC. X G(p3)1 You can use gauntlets to conditionally serve the prerequisites for stunning fist. ? G(p3)2 You can use spells/abilities to conditionally serve the prerequisites for stunning fist. G(P1)1 - Gauntlet Description1 G(P1)2 - Stike, Unarmed Description2 G(P1)3 - Beblith & Barbed Devil Description3 G(P1)4 - Huminoid Description4 G(p1)5 - Improved Grab[/b] Description5 G(p1)6 - Manufactured Weapons[/b] Description6 G(p1)7 - [i]Natural Weapons[/b] Description7 G(p1)8 - [i]Rake Description8 G(p1)9 - Shapechanger Description9 G(p1)10 - Touch Spells Description10 G(p1)11 - Unarmed Attacks Description11 G(p1)12 - Improved Unarmed Strike Description12 G(p1)13 - Stunning Fist Description13 The source of this confusion lies within my attempts to rationalize what is an unecessarily complicated rule construction. Allow me to cut and paste. "Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature," and manufactured weapons are "any weapon that is not intrinsic to the creature." "The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage" is the decription of slap or slam, and "Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts" is the description of an Unarmed strike. Pretty similar rationally but drastically different mechanically. Until today I had taken the Unarmed Strike to be a natural weapon...it is "physically" part of the huminoid, and it wouldnt be the only attack form not on the list (see Rake). In reviewing this issue, however, I realized I was missing something. "Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons." Unarmed Strike is not a natural weapon, despite it's "intrinsic" "natural" and "physically part" 'ness it is listed under the simple weapons. A category of weapons that huminoids are proficient with, and a type of weapon that gains the benifit of additional attacks with a higher base attack bonus. This choice was probably made to maintain as much of the original 3.0 monk functionality as possible, but at the cost of the rational flow of concepts. An unarmed strike is simple weapon because there was no desire to have PCs flop back and forth between natural attack rates and manufactured attack rates. The idea that we would want to play MONSTERS was not actually given much credit durring the forging of 3.0, but this would have been simpler IMO: :r::b::u::w::g: Add the Natural weapons that are listed in the MM onto the weapons description table above simple. So you get the default values. Then in the natural weapon verbal description (in combat1.rtf) do something like this: Natural Weapons: ... Individual monsters may have superior versions of the basic natural weapons. ... Strike, Unarmed: An unarmed strike is considered a simple weapon for purposes of recieving additional attacks from a high base attack bonus. A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal bludgeoning damage with an unarmed strike. The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls. Unlike most natural weapons an unarmed Strike is usually considered an unarmed attack, however some spells, abilities, and feats (such as Improved Unarmed Strike) cause an unarmed strike to be considered armed. All creatures with a Strength or Dexterity score are able to make an unarmed strike, thusly unarmed strike is never listed in a monster's attack block. Any natural weapon or improvised object may be used as an unarmed strike at a -4 penalty to the attack roll. An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike. And the feats in question look something like this: STUNNING FIST [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Dex 13, Wis 13, base attack bonus +8, and special. ... Special: A natural weapon attack that is considered armed. My Problem? I was going through all of this thinking that the reason natural attacks were a qualifier was because they dealt leathal damage and could sunder the ammunition or something (conceptually) but really were looking at the ability to ... AoO on the ammo as it enters your space. Sounds like Improved Deflect arrow would go something like this: Rec: +Combat Reflexis. Ben: You may deflect a number of arrows equal the number of attacks of opportunity you can take. Deflecting arrows counts against the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in the round. -> and grapple, trip, and disarm should really read something along this line... Using your natural weapons to grab an opponent/object, if your only natural weapon is an unarmed strike you may provoke an attack of opportunity, etc. :r::b::u::w::g: Neat I learned something but now.. My real problem? ... something here? Where does it say that gauntlets of ogre strength will allow you take power attack? I did look about a bit, and despite my concordant opinion - I question if this is not CoCo Kosher, as far as I can tell. No refrence in the feats section of conditionally meeting the requirments. According to that you have to have the req (or equivalated ala imp/nat) to aquire the feat. A headband of intellect doesnt give you skill points ... but you can get combat expertise with it? Where does it say that again? I understand this is a Cat call - perhaps a hyperlink? Its not refrenced in the rules (or I failed my search). If we allow conditionals - there are allot of conditional to consider - not just ability scores. Wings of flying? Flyby attack. Imbue spell...permanancy... or staves/wands for spells.. spells like alterself and shapechangers... you see. If conditionals are allowed (and they are not in the SRD or on the Rules of the Game or in the Faq that I can find) there is no reason not to take it on down the line. Daily access to the ability should be about an Hour. If you can reasonably be expected to emulate the ability (via item, spell, or ability) for a period of over an hour a day you should have sufficient time for "training" purposes. This does not apply to gauntlets - you arent armed with guantlets - but it does apply to allot of other abilities. Perhaps before I go on too long, I will ask the elders - what is the current line on conditional ability emulation? :mage: I divine :mage: State scores and (maybe druid, shapechanger, NOT polymorph..., but permanancy (for somethings, like fly) ;) You loose access to the feat/ability when you loose the bonus provided from ... the ... [i]magical item only? So only if the Lord/Master is particularly tricksy and catches you with your belt/boot/helmet/glove/rings/vest off? "Buying stat points like baldur's gate?" LOL that may sound offensivish but its not intended so. |lll| [list] 1 - Gauntlet: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. 2 - Strike, Unarmed: A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike. A Small character deals 1d2 points of nonlethal damage. A monk or any character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat can deal lethal or nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes, at her option. The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls. An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike. 3 - DEMONS and DEVILS!! See the SRD/MM Those two demons have improved grapple and don't have improved unarmed strike. 4 - Huminoid —Proficient with all simple weapons, or by character class. —Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, or by character class. If a humanoid does not have a class and wears armor, it is proficient with that type of armor and all lighter types. Humanoids not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Humanoids are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. 5 - Improved Grab Improved Grab (Ex): If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required. Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text). When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight. 6 - Manufactured Weapons Manufactured Weapons: Some monsters employ manufactured weapons when they attack. Creatures that use swords, bows, spears, and the like follow the same rules as characters, including those for additional attacks from a high base attack bonus and two-weapon fighting penalties. This category also includes “found items,” such as rocks and logs, that a creature wields in combat— in essence, any weapon that is not intrinsic to the creature. Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual –5 penalty (or –2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon. 7 - Natural Weapons Natural Weapons: Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions. Unless otherwise noted, a natural weapon threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 20. When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary. The primary weapon is given in the creature’s Attack entry, and the primary weapon or weapons is given first in the creature’s Full Attack entry. A creature’s primary natural weapon is its most effective natural attack, usually by virtue of the creature’s physiology, training, or innate talent with the weapon. An attack with a primary natural weapon uses the creature’s full attack bonus. Attacks with secondary natural weapons are less effective and are made with a –5 penalty on the attack roll, no matter how many there are. (Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a –2 penalty on secondary attacks.) This penalty applies even when the creature makes a single attack with the secondary weapon as part of the attack action or as an attack of opportunity. Natural weapons have types just as other weapons do. The most common are summarized below. Bite: The creature attacks with its mouth, dealing piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning damage. Claw or Talon: The creature rips with a sharp appendage, dealing piercing and slashing damage. Gore: The creature spears the opponent with an antler, horn, or similar appendage, dealing piercing damage. Slap or Slam: The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage. Sting: The creature stabs with a stinger, dealing piercing damage. Sting attacks usually deal damage from poison in addition to hit point damage. Tentacle: The creature flails at opponents with a powerful tentacle, dealing bludgeoning (and sometimes slashing) damage. 8 - The Rake Ability Rake (Ex): A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the usual –4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple. A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn. 9 - Shapechanger Shapechanger Subtype: A shapechanger has the supernatural ability to assume one or more alternate forms. Many magical effects allow some kind of shape shifting, and not every creature that can change shapes has the shapechanger subtype. Traits: A shapechanger possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). —Proficient with its natural weapons, with simple weapons, and with any weapons mentioned in the creature’s description. —Proficient with any armor mentioned in the creature’s description, as well as all lighter forms. If no form of armor is mentioned, the shapechanger is not proficient with armor. A shapechanger is proficient with shields if it is proficient with any type of armor. 10 - Touch Spells Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll. Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. However, the act of casting a spell does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack. Your opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally. Holding the Charge: If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge. 11 - Unarmed Attacks Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following: Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe. An unarmed character can’t take attacks of opportunity (but see “Armed” Unarmed Attacks, below). “Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed. Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity) Unarmed Strike Damage: An unarmed strike from a Medium character deals 1d3 points of damage (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). A Small character’s unarmed strike deals 1d2 points of damage, while a Large character’s unarmed strike deals 1d4 points of damage. All damage from unarmed strikes is nonlethal damage. Unarmed strikes count as light weapons (for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on). Dealing Lethal Damage: You can specify that your unarmed strike will deal lethal damage before you make your attack roll, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. If you have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, you can deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike without taking a penalty on the attack roll. 12 - Improved Unarmed Strike IMPROVED UNARMED STRIKE [GENERAL] Benefit: You are considered to be armed even when unarmed —that is, you do not provoke attacks or opportunity from armed opponents when you attack them while unarmed. However, you still get an attack of opportunity against any opponent who makes an unarmed attack on you. In addition, your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at your option. Normal: Without this feat, you are considered unarmed when attacking with an unarmed strike, and you can deal only nonlethal damage with such an attack. Special: A monk automatically gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat at 1st level. She need not select it. A fighter may select Improved Unarmed Strike as one of his fighter bonus feats. 13 - Stunning Fist STUNNING FIST [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Dex 13, Wis 13, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +8. Benefit: You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a failed attack roll ruins the attempt). Stunning Fist forces a foe damaged by your unarmed attack to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Wis modifier), in addition to dealing damage normally. A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next action). A stunned character can’t act, loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, and takes a –2 penalty to AC. You may attempt a stunning attack once per day for every four levels you have attained (but see Special), and no more than once per round. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be stunned. Special: A monk may select Stunning Fist as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. A monk who selects this feat may attempt a stunning attack a number of times per day equal to her monk level, plus one more time per day for every four levels she has in classes other than monk. A fighter may select Stunning Fist as one of his fighter bonus feats.
NiQil 11-22-05, 12:38 AM	The Multiattack feat from the MM reads (under "benefit"): "The creature's secondary attacks with natural weapons take only a -2 penalty." This would lead me to believe that if the primary attack is a weapon and the secondary natural, it still applies. However, the feat also says in the "flavor" text that "The creature is adept at using all its natural weapons at once," which implies that the primary attack needs to be natural for the feat to apply. Which is it? If memory serves, I believe somewhere in the MM it states that if a weapon is used as the primary attack, a secondary attack with one natural weapon may be made at the -2. I'm not in a position to check this, however, so I could be way off.
Snommelp 11-22-05, 12:43 AM	If memory serves, I believe somewhere in the MM it states that if a weapon is used as the primary attack, a secondary attack with one natural weapon may be made at the -2. I'm not in a position to check this, however, so I could be way off. I just found my answer; it's in the troglodyte stat block. Trogs have multiattack, and they have club +1 claw -1 bite -1 as one mode of attack and claws +1 bite -1 as another. Looks like you're right, NiQil. The feat still applies. Thanks for your help!
NiQil 11-22-05, 02:03 AM	Can any weapon be used to make trip attacks, or does it have to be a weapon that specifically says it can be used for trip attacks? Edit: Nevermind...answered my own question.
Vathelokai 11-22-05, 06:44 AM	Did anything ever come of this?? - New Guildmaster for EYE? Nope. It's unfortunate. I have a character I would like to join the EYE.
Book5 11-22-05, 06:50 AM	Did anything ever come of this?? I also have a character almost built that was intended for the EYE Vath is already a guildmaster, I can barely manage to pitlord with my free time... Ayrynthyn? You up for it? I bet if you PM Cat he'll let you do it.
Vathelokai 11-22-05, 07:35 AM	@GUILDMASTERS I made a couple maps for my guild to choose from, and they picked the one they wanted. If you don't have a map yet, you could pick one of these. Also, if you don't have map sofware, I can tweak one of these or make you one. Just send me a PM. http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a327/Vathelokai/CoCo%20Maps/grass.jpg http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a327/Vathelokai/CoCo%20Maps/seperate.jpg http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a327/Vathelokai/CoCo%20Maps/star.jpg
Vathelokai 11-22-05, 07:42 AM	There has been some debate scatered across the board about powerstoring arrows. If you have not seen it, it goes like this; Powerstoring is a melee enhancement, so it cannot be added to arrows. It is currently being debated if you could get powerstoring arrows with a credit expenditure. In the blackmarket Cat allowed it. It is possible that Cat was in error, perhaps not aware that it was a melee only enhancement. Could this be clairified? Is it allowed? What would be the proper credit cost?
Ribking 11-22-05, 08:43 AM	I probably should have went through this before I got one..... Can anyone tell me how a a +1 Net would work? There are three ways to escape a normal net. Spend time cutting it for 5hp worth of damage, a DC25 Strength check, or a DC20 Escape Artist Check. Since any enchanted weapon is considered masterwork quality, I would assume the following. - The Strength check DC would rise from 25 to 27 as described in the SRD under Carrying, Movement, and Exploration (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/carryingAndExploration.html). Towards the bottom under "Breaking Items" is saysThe DC depends more on the construction of the item than on the material.....it then goes on and lists a table of example items and DC to break them. Under "Table: OBJECT HARDNESS AND HIT POINTS" it lists Manacles as having a DC26 to break via a strength check. It then shows that Masterwork Manacles have a DC28 to break via a strength check. It seems logical that Masterwork Items have an additional +2 to its' DC to break. - The Escape Artist check DC would rise from 20 to 25 as described in the SRD under Escape Artist (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/skillsAll.html#escape-artist). It saysManacles and Masterwork Manacles: The DC for manacles is set by their construction.....it then goes on and lists a table of example items and DC to escape from. It lists Manacles as having a DC30 to escape via Escape Artist skill check. It then lists Masterwork Manacles as having a DC35 to escape via Escape Artist skill check. It seems logical that Masterwork Items have an additional +5 to its' DC to escape from, although the exapmle was specific to Manacles. A +1 Enchantment on a weapon adds +2 to the hardness and +10 hit points as well as making it immune to damage from non-magical weapons. So....Again, there are three ways to escape a normal net. Spend time cutting it for 5hp worth of damage, a DC25 Strength check, or a DC20 Escape Artist Check. A +1 net increases these three options to Spend time cutting it (with a magical weapon) for 15hp (hardness of 2), a DC27 Strength check, or a DC25 Escape Artist check. Agreed? Opinions? I cannot find any example of magical items being compared to non-magical ones as far as Breaking or Escaping. Does anyone know of any such information? I would really like to know if an enchanted weapon would be harder to break or escape from than a masterwork weapon. Also....let's say I decide to add a Flaming enchantment to the +1 Net. How would that work?
Ayrynthyn 11-22-05, 10:03 AM	I also have a character almost built that was intended for the EYE Vath is already a guildmaster, I can barely manage to pitlord with my free time... Ayrynthyn? You up for it? I bet if you PM Cat he'll let you do it. :shocked: Boy...if it's just body you want to throw at this, i guess i could. but... Top ten reason's i think this would be a bad idea #10) I'm a journeyman at best when it comes to 3.5 rules #9) I have only a cursory understanding of the CoCo rules and workings #8) I have even less understanding of the Lore and History of Gladius #7) I think i may have seen the link to the guild rules...once #6) Not sure i have the kind of time this needs to do it justice. #5) Im not the most organized dude in the world #4-2) Many other witty 'excuses' #1) Till a week or so ago, i was King of all Lurkers I'll PM Cat under the understanding that im fillin' in till, Enterik comes back, i die, or you find someone better...
Myrridin 11-22-05, 10:33 AM	Do we use the standard stats from the MM for the challenges in our quests? What about if we're taking a race, and creating characters as the challenge. I guess I should use the 25 point buy method for said characters, correct?
TelinArtho 11-22-05, 10:35 AM	Standard point buy would be, well, standard. If you wanted to use the elite array, you could add +1 to the CR. Equipment is fully customizable (though shouldn't be made explicitly to combat the character(s)). In other words, as long as your CR matches the EL of the encounter - then you can do what you like.
TheMagister 11-22-05, 11:06 AM	I probably should have went through this before I got one..... Can anyone tell me how a a +1 Net would work? There are three ways to escape a normal net. Spend time cutting it for 5hp worth of damage, a DC25 Strength check, or a DC20 Escape Artist Check. Since any enchanted weapon is considered masterwork quality, I would assume the following. - The Strength check DC would rise from 25 to 27 as described in the SRD under Carrying, Movement, and Exploration (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/carryingAndExploration.html). Towards the bottom under "Breaking Items" is says....it then goes on and lists a table of example items and DC to break them. Under "Table: OBJECT HARDNESS AND HIT POINTS" it lists Manacles as having a DC26 to break via a strength check. It then shows that Masterwork Manacles have a DC28 to break via a strength check. It seems logical that Masterwork Items have an additional +2 to its' DC to break. - The Escape Artist check DC would rise from 20 to 25 as described in the SRD under Escape Artist (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/skillsAll.html#escape-artist). It says....it then goes on and lists a table of example items and DC to escape from. It lists Manacles as having a DC30 to escape via Escape Artist skill check. It then lists Masterwork Manacles as having a DC35 to escape via Escape Artist skill check. It seems logical that Masterwork Items have an additional +5 to its' DC to escape from, although the exapmle was specific to Manacles. A +1 Enchantment on a weapon adds +2 to the hardness and +10 hit points as well as making it immune to damage from non-magical weapons. So....Again, there are three ways to escape a normal net. Spend time cutting it for 5hp worth of damage, a DC25 Strength check, or a DC20 Escape Artist Check. A +1 net increases these three options to Spend time cutting it (with a magical weapon) for 15hp (hardness of 2), a DC27 Strength check, or a DC25 Escape Artist check. Agreed? Opinions? I cannot find any example of magical items being compared to non-magical ones as far as Breaking or Escaping. Does anyone know of any such information? I would really like to know if an enchanted weapon would be harder to break or escape from than a masterwork weapon. Sdentch has had the same idea. Actually, I was going to add a normal net to her inventory today! Great minds (and morons) think alike! Also....let's say I decide to add a Flaming enchantment to the +1 Net. How would that work? I'd think that as long as they're entangled, they take +1d6 fire damage, as normal. Kinda low payoff for 8,000+ gp... TM
Ribking 11-22-05, 11:50 AM	I'd think that as long as they're entangled, they take +1d6 fire damage, as normal. Kinda low payoff for 8,000+ gp...I dunno....if it's very difficult to break free, and it infact does work like that, I think it'd be worth it. Though I'd likely look towards the "Merciful" version as there is no resistance spell to negate it.....at least none that I can think of at the moment.
Vathelokai 11-22-05, 11:53 AM	I'll PM Cat under the understanding that im fillin' in till, Enterik comes back, i die, or you find someone better...That could be quite a long time, friend. :cool:
One_Winged_Angel 11-22-05, 01:00 PM	@Book5: If you still have a problem with the gauntlet idea, then I'm still willing to debate/argue points with you, but I think that the elders have spoken. As for getting ticked, it wasn't that I was just skipping over them. I did consider the points, but in the end, it's still a debate that I thought I was right. I accepted gauntlets were unarmed strikes eventually (after reading over the desciption over and over and over...), but I'm still pretty sure unarmed strikes are not considered natural weapons. Still, I find I'm wrong more often than I'm right. :P As for prereques and feats...yah. Basically, it doesn't say it in the SRD that I can see, but in the PHB, it clearly states that you can gain feats as long as you have the prerequisites met when you are able to take a feat. The example they use is a Barbarian taking a skill rank in ride the same level he takes mounted combat. So, I suppose I was wrong and you technically could take a feat off of something like Bull's Str for Power attack the second you level up through some crazy thing like Persistant Spell. However, in the arena, it would be all to easy to say that you cannot actually level up your character it hit by a Dispel Magic, nixing that idea. Even in play you could use that excuse. It also clearly states that if you lose the prerequisite, you lose benifit of the feat until you have the prerequisite met again. So, that's it in a nutshell. Not a pretty explination, but a sound one.
TelinArtho 11-22-05, 01:16 PM	If you have the trample feat and are riding a mount other than a horse (and something that doesn't have a listed hoof attack - like a Bison...), can the mount make an attack during the overrun?
One_Winged_Angel 11-22-05, 01:20 PM	If you have the trample feat and are riding a mount other than a horse (and something that doesn't have a listed hoof attack - like a Bison...), can the mount make an attack during the overrun? My guess would be no, but that's just me. It might be possible to just tack on a hoof attack... Here's a question relating: what if what you're riding has a claw attack? Does it do claw damage instead? And a question that's been nagging at me: if we take monster racial HD, do we HAVE to take the feats listed in the description? I don't know if it says we can or can't anywhere. Is there an official ruling?
KerlanRayne 11-22-05, 01:31 PM	A +1 Enchantment on a weapon adds +2 to the hardness and +10 hit points as well as making it immune to damage from non-magical weapons.Nope, any weapon can damage it. KerlanRayne
TelinArtho 11-22-05, 01:33 PM	You have to take racial Bonus Feats - but if it is just from HD - you can exchange them for others. For instance, a sahaugin gets Multi-attack as a bonus feat - so that's required to stay. However, you can exchange Great Fortitude for any feat for which it qualifies at 1HD.
Sindorin 11-22-05, 01:43 PM	@ all I will be away on hiatus for a week or so depending on how much work I get done while out of town. I may or may not be able to ready a character or two, but this is just to say you are all in my heart, so have a happy thanksgiving!
NiQil 11-22-05, 01:44 PM	There has been some debate scatered across the board about powerstoring arrows. If you have not seen it, it goes like this; Powerstoring is a melee enhancement, so it cannot be added to arrows. It is currently being debated if you could get powerstoring arrows with a credit expenditure. In the blackmarket Cat allowed it. It is possible that Cat was in error, perhaps not aware that it was a melee only enhancement. Could this be clairified? Is it allowed? What would be the proper credit cost? Per Cat's answer in the FotW thread, no, powerstoring and spellstoring are not allowed on ranged weapons, as they are not on the ranged enchantment lists. He was unaware of this when he approved them in the Blackmarket, and is refunding the credits that were paid for them so that they can be removed from Ajora's sheet.
NiQil 11-22-05, 01:45 PM	@ all I will be away on hiatus for a week or so depending on how much work I get done while out of town. I may or may not be able to ready a character or two, but this is just to say you are all in my heart, so have a happy thanksgiving! Can I be in your will also? Or maybe just your wallet? LOL
Caterane 11-22-05, 01:48 PM	@all: Sorry for my lack of participation during this coco week but I spent my time in the city hospital and after that at home to regenerate. I'm fine again. I'll try to catch up and update the roster and everything tonight and tomorow mostly. Here you are: - + x3 2 2 1 1 0 0 0 1 1 2 2 3x y 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 y 30 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 30 9 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 9 8 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 8 7 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 7 6 w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O A O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w 6 25 w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w 25 4 w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w 4 3 w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w 3 2 w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O O O O O O O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w 2 1 w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w 1 20 w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w 20 9 w w w w w O O O O O O O O O @ @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ @ O O O O O O O O O w w w w w 9 8 w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w 8 7 w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w 7 6 w w w w O O O O O O O @ O O O @ O O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O O @ O O O @ O O O O O O O w w w w 6 15 w w w O O O O O O O O @ O O @ @ @ O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O @ @ @ O O @ O O O O O O O O w w w 15 4 w w w O O O O O O O O @ O O O @ O O O @ O O O O O O O § O O O O O § O O O O O O O @ O O O @ O O O @ O O O O O O O O w w w 4 3 w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 0 O O O w w 3 2 w w O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O w w 2 1 w w O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O w w 1 10 w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 0 O O O O O w 10 9 w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 0 O O O O O w 9 8 w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 0 O O O O O w 8 7 w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 0 O O O O O w 7 6 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 0 O O O O O O O 6 05 O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O 05 4 O O O O § O O O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O O O § O O O O 4 3 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 3 2 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 2 + 1 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 1+ 00 O O O O D O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O @ @ @ O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O B O O O O 00 - 1 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 1- 2 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 2 3 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 3 4 O O O O § O O O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O O O § O O O O 4 05 O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O 05 6 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 0 O O O O O O O 6 7 w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 0 O O O O O w 7 8 w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 0 O O O O O w 8 9 w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 0 O O O O O w 9 10 w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 0 O O O O O w 10 1 w w O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O w w 1 2 w w O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O w w 2 3 w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 0 O O O w w 3 4 w w w O O O O O O O O @ O O O @ O O O @ O O O O O O O § O O O O O § O O O O O O O @ O O O @ O O O @ O O O O O O O O w w w 4 15 w w w O O O O O O O O @ O O @ @ @ O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O @ @ @ O O @ O O O O O O O O w w w 15 6 w w w w O O O O O O O @ O O O @ O O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O O @ O O O @ O O O O O O O w w w w 6 7 w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w 7 8 w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w 8 9 w w w w w O O O O O O O O O @ @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ @ O O O O O O O O O w w w w w 9 20 w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w 20 1 w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O @ @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w 1 2 w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O O O O O O O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w 2 3 w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w 3 4 w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w 4 25 w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w 25 6 w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O C O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w 6 7 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 7 8 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 8 9 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 9 30 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 30 y 3 2 2 1 1 0 0 0 1 1 2 2 3 y x0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0x - + Legend w: wall O: arena floor O: arena floor, starting box @: column to the ceiling §: big rock A, B, C, D: default starting squares Thanks a lot Stormwind! +1°
NiQil 11-22-05, 01:51 PM	@all: Sorry for my lack of participation during this coco week but I spent my time in the city hospital and after that at home to regenerate. I'm fine again. I'll try to catch up and update the roster and everything tonight and tomorow mostly. Thanks a lot Stormwind! +1° Glad you are feeling better! Welcome back!
Macbrea 11-22-05, 02:03 PM	Well, I finished Larktin (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7812536&postcount=543) but will have to wait til I get 20 o in order to be able to play him. As such, I could probably take a couple extra fights next week during the holidays. :D
lonewolf 11-22-05, 02:04 PM	I have a question but maybe it has been answered somewhere already: Can I put a psionic tatoo of skate on my horse and activate it while Im riding it?
TelinArtho 11-22-05, 02:10 PM	I have a question but maybe it has been answered somewhere already: Can I put a psionic tatoo of skate on my horse and activate it while Im riding it? Yes, you can even give the horse the "perform (tap)" trick and have it tap the tattoo itself. Well, I finished Larktin but will have to wait til I get 20 o in order to be able to play him. As such, I could probably take a couple extra fights next week during the holidays. Not sure why you'd bother with the fiendish template (+2 LA for Smite Good and DR5/magic doesn't seem worth it to me). Plus - that could save you 8 credits...
NiQil 11-22-05, 02:11 PM	Well, I finished Larktin (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7812536&postcount=543) but will have to wait til I get 20 o in order to be able to play him. As such, I could probably take a couple extra fights next week during the holidays. :D There is a fight right now that needs doing, if you are looking to do one now...nightbanegod had an all vs all fight that he could not do...he posted the tactics in the Battles thread....so if yer interested, snag them and run that. Unless yer involved in the fight, of course.
Macbrea 11-22-05, 02:12 PM	Technically. No... A character can trigger the effects of another’s psionic tattoo if the other wearer is unconscious. It is a full-round action to find, touch, and concentrate on an unconscious creature’s tattoo in order to tap it. Your horse would have to be unconscious.
NiQil 11-22-05, 02:14 PM	I have a question but maybe it has been answered somewhere already: Can I put a psionic tatoo of skate on my horse and activate it while Im riding it? You'd be better off getting a crawling tattoo of skate and having it on yourself and then tapping it to affect the horse. Cheaper too.
Macbrea 11-22-05, 02:18 PM	Not sure why you'd bother with the fiendish template (+2 LA for Smite Good and DR5/magic doesn't seem worth it to me). Plus - that could save you 8 credits... It actually gives Smite good (which i forgot to put down) DR 5/Magic and 5 cold and fire resistance as you are a 4 HD creature at that point. The DR 5/Magic means you need both a Magic and silver weapon to be able to actually able to bypass the armor. This is only common on archers. You are correct though, technically, I could save myself the hastle but it really could make a difference later in life. And the 20 credits just gives me a goal.
Macbrea 11-22-05, 02:22 PM	There is a fight right now that needs doing, if you are looking to do one now...nightbanegod had an all vs all fight that he could not do...he posted the tactics in the Battles thread....so if yer interested, snag them and run that. Unless yer involved in the fight, of course. I would but at the moment I am at work. And this fight needs to be done before too much longer. I will pick it up this evening if someone hasn't stated they will run it.
TelinArtho 11-22-05, 02:28 PM	About my earlier trample question, I found the answer in the FAQ (page 15 if you are interested). Essentially, it doesn't have to be a hoof attack, but it does have to be an attack made by the "feet" of the mount. So a claw attack is fine (say if you are mounted on a bear or lion), but a riding dog (who has no "foot" attack, just the bite) would get no free attack. This is fine - but I kind of wish they had included some sort of trample attack for the bison (since to me it is clear that they could...). Oh well, guess I'll have to work with a different animal if I want to go the trample route...
NiQil 11-22-05, 02:38 PM	About my earlier trample question, I found the answer in the FAQ (page 15 if you are interested). Essentially, it doesn't have to be a hoof attack, but it does have to be an attack made by the "feet" of the mount. So a claw attack is fine (say if you are mounted on a bear or lion), but a riding dog (who has no "foot" attack, just the bite) would get no free attack. This is fine - but I kind of wish they had included some sort of trample attack for the bison (since to me it is clear that they could...). Oh well, guess I'll have to work with a different animal if I want to go the trample route... Heh...get yourself a high level druid and get a dinosaur LOL
Dracazar 11-22-05, 02:40 PM	I have some question about quests. 1) Is there any questlord available? 2) We can discuss the quest via PM/mail before running, right? 3) May I start a new char with an ally available at +13 Dip (assuming i have +13)? I have to pay credits/gold? 4) If my ally is CR > 1 may I still have it and use when I reach the appropriate level? 5) How many weeks are needed to gain a CR1 ally (example: Air Elemental)? Thanks
TelinArtho 11-22-05, 02:44 PM	I have some question about quests. 1) Is there any questlord available? 2) We can discuss the quest via PM/mail before running, right? 3) May I start a new char with an ally available at +13 Dip (assuming i have +13)? I have to pay credits/gold? 4) If my ally is CR > 1 may I still have it and use when I reach the appropriate level? 5) How many weeks are needed to gain a CR1 ally (example: Air Elemental)? Thanks 1. I'm always available to questlord. 2. Yes - send a PM to the questlord with (at least): a) quest goal b) the EL of the quest and c) the character(s) going on the quest 3. You can't start with an ally gained through diplomacy - but as you can see with several of my characters (Anakala and Delaria for instance) they started off with miniquests to gain them. Also note that you need the diplomacy bonus and the ability to communicate with them. 4. You can get allies that are greater than you are allowed to use in the arena - but you can't use them in there until the appropriate level. For instance, Delaria is questing for a Med. Fire Elemental (CR3), but even though she'll be level 5 when she's done with the quest, she won't be able to bring it in until level 7. 5. Allies can be gotten during miniquests (1 week, ECL-2 max) or during quests (3 weeks, 3 credits, any ECL).
TelinArtho 11-22-05, 02:46 PM	Heh...get yourself a high level druid and get a dinosaur LOL Well, my original next idea wasn't going to work until level 8, but I changed part of it to a druid, and that works ~level 6 ish. The problem is, I want the druid to have a heavy warhorse for a mount... so that's why I had moved on to the bison... but the bison doesn't have trample... etc etc..
TelinArtho 11-22-05, 03:11 PM	Well, I guess its about time to post my next creation: Faelto (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7816708) Anyone care to comment?
Guildmaster (EYE) 11-22-05, 03:29 PM	*mumbles something under his breath* 'wife...mumble...grumble...short hairs...frurm..grum...dog house...' *and wanders off to empty his inbox*
Macbrea 11-22-05, 03:30 PM	My guess is your going to have serious problems with archers. As you will probably loose half your hps to an archer on round 1 and then trample them. Immediately followed with them standing and you getting an attack of oppurtunity. They will basicly, get to shoot at you in the next round for free at 5ft away.
TelinArtho 11-22-05, 03:33 PM	I'm sure I'll have plenty of problems with plenty of builds... I'm actually kind of expecting to lose my first few matches until I get used to the druid itself... first time I've ever played one after all.
Ribking 11-22-05, 03:36 PM	@KerlanRayne Hardness and Hit Points: An attacker cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his own weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon or shield struck. Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to a weapon’s or shield’s hardness and +10 to its hit points.You need a magic weapon to cause weapon damage to a magic weapon.
NiQil 11-22-05, 03:41 PM	@KerlanRayne You need a magic weapon to cause weapon damage to a magic weapon. This is incorrect. Check the DMG errata.
KerlanRayne 11-22-05, 04:02 PM	@KerlanRayne You need a magic weapon to cause weapon damage to a magic weapon.Read the FAQ, page 26. KerlanRayne
TheMagister 11-22-05, 04:37 PM	Yes, you can even give the horse the "perform (tap)" trick and have it tap the tattoo itself. I'd pay good money to see a horse that could tap. ... ...or even soft-shoe. [ducks for cover] TM
Ribking 11-22-05, 04:43 PM	Read the FAQ, page 26Dang! :weep: Since we're on this topic....how does this affect "Shatterspike" (DMG228)?
TelinArtho 11-22-05, 04:54 PM	On the subject of the share spells feature of Familiars/Animal Companions/Special Mounts, I'm curious about what qualifies as a spell cast by you. Here's the text from the Animal Companion entry (though they all have the same caveats): Share Spells (Ex): At the druid’s option, she may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) she casts upon herself also affect her animal companion. The animal companion must be within 5 feet of her at the time of casting to receive the benefit. If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the animal companion if the companion moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the animal again, even if it returns to the druid before the duration expires. Additionally, the druid may cast a spell with a target of “You” on her animal companion (as a touch range spell) instead of on herself. A druid and her animal companion can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the companion’s type (animal). It specifically states that it is a spell that the character casts, and specifically excludes spell-like abilities. So my question: Would share spells be usable in the following circumstances: 1. A potion drunk by the master? (My opinion is no) 2. A scroll read by the master? (Not sure, but I think yes) 3. A spell cast by the user, but modified by a metamagic rod? (Yes, but not sure about the metamagic effect) Other circumstances like Wondrous Items? Rods? Staves? Wands? (Depends on whether potions are allowed I think - but I still think no). I've been poring through the FAQ and found no mention of it - so if there is one that I've missed - please do let me know. /d [EDIT] Looks like Vath saved me again (through including a link in the arcane order): The master and familiar can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the familiar's type (usually magical beast). The shared spell does not have to be an arcane spell; any spell the master casts himself can be shared with the familiar. The master cannot share spell-like abilities or supernatural abilities, nor can the master and familiar share effects from magic items. So the spell has to be cast by the master himself (not from a scroll) and is not modified by metamagic rods or similar.
TelinArtho 11-22-05, 04:55 PM	Dang! :weep: Since we're on this topic....how does this affect "Shatterspike" (DMG228)? Looks like the last statement is no longer important (as it can affect anything theoretically).
Macbrea 11-22-05, 07:37 PM	It specifically states that it is a spell that the character casts, and specifically excludes spell-like abilities. So my question: Would share spells be usable in the following circumstances: 1. A potion drunk by the master? (My opinion is no) 2. A scroll read by the master? (Not sure, but I think yes) 3. A spell cast by the user, but modified by a metamagic rod? (Yes, but not sure about the metamagic effect) It allows you to share any spell that you cast. I would assume this would be any item or ability that is either a direct cast of a spell or spell completion item. Such as a spell cast off a scroll. So, given that, I would have to say: 1) No, Potions spells which take effect when used. 2) Yes 3) Yes with the metamagic effect. Wands, Staves and Rod are generally spell trigger items and could be argued either way. In my opinion they are spells cast by the spell caster. As they require you have the spell on your list in order to be able to use.
Gonbow 11-23-05, 12:12 AM	Heya guys; I mentioned it earlier, but it seems to have gotten lost in the various arguments. I'm entering another strange character into the menagerie of CC; a dretch! I've put him in Terminus-Est's spot, because I wanted to use the name. I made him from scratch using the new character sheet template, would anyone mind looking over him and checking for glaring errors? I'd appreciate it. His sheet is here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=6576080#post6576080).
Luni 11-23-05, 01:41 AM	Anyone know how much it would cost to train an animal 6 tricks? It is a trained hireling, I think so would the cost be 3 sp/day * 7 days, multiplied by 6 handlers for 122 sp? @Gonbow: I like your dretch! Though you got drow poison vials listed twice, but I think one is supposed to be prepared arrows.
Gonbow 11-23-05, 02:02 AM	Anyone know how much it would cost to train an animal 6 tricks? It is a trained hireling, I think so would the cost be 3 sp/day * 7 days, multiplied by 6 handlers for 122 sp? @Gonbow: I like your dretch! Though you got drow poison vials listed twice, but I think one is supposed to be prepared arrows. Well, thematically, he cant put the same thing on his 'claws' that he puts on his 'arrows' as they are a buzzsaw and a laser rifle respectively, so I just listed them twice rather than come up with something Brilliant (tm) to call them that would work with both.
TheMagister 11-23-05, 07:17 AM	Heya guys; I mentioned it earlier, but it seems to have gotten lost in the various arguments. I'm entering another strange character into the menagerie of CC; a dretch! I've put him in Terminus-Est's spot, because I wanted to use the name. I made him from scratch using the new character sheet template, would anyone mind looking over him and checking for glaring errors? I'd appreciate it. His sheet is here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=6576080#post6576080). Wow, I like him. I can tell you that Torgirr would get his butt handed to him vs. Terminus. That DR 10 is ugly. TM
Cerebus13 11-23-05, 07:39 AM	Heya guys; I mentioned it earlier, but it seems to have gotten lost in the various arguments. I'm entering another strange character into the menagerie of CC; a dretch! I've put him in Terminus-Est's spot, because I wanted to use the name. I made him from scratch using the new character sheet template, would anyone mind looking over him and checking for glaring errors? I'd appreciate it. His sheet is here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=6576080#post6576080).Co uld you adjust the sheet so that any [tags] you have modifying text are closed before sblocks? Firefox users cannot open sblocks that have a [tag] on them...so if you need to adjust the text within do it after the sblock starts and stop it before the sblock ends.
waywreth 11-23-05, 08:41 AM	Anyone know how much it would cost to train an animal 6 tricks? It is a trained hireling, I think so would the cost be 3 sp/day * 7 days, multiplied by 6 handlers for 122 sp? Ooh ooh I know this one: Animal Trainers: Most bought animals are already trained but you can opt to buy an untrained version of this animal. Exotic beast always come untrained. Since not every gladiator has the necessary skill to train or rear an animal or a magical beast even, he can hire a professional trainer to do this job for him. Animals, Magical Beasts, and similar allies acquired on quests can be trained by a trainer which takes a week per trick (this does not count against a character's Free Activities). Likewise, you can change its standard feats or relocate its skill points by paying a trainer. Code: Fees for Animal Trainers: Basic Animals.......50 gp (per trick) Basic Animals......100 gp (per feat change) Basic Animals......100 gp (for skill changes) Giant Eagle........200 gp (per trick) Griffon............250 gp (per trick) Hippogriff.........200 gp (per trick) Giant Owl..........200 gp (per trick) Pegasus............200 gp (per trick) Spider Eater.......500 gp (per trick) Exotic Mounts.....1000 gp (per feat change) Exotic Mounts.....1000 gp (for skill changes)
Guildmaster (TAO) 11-23-05, 12:17 PM	Heya guys; I mentioned it earlier, but it seems to have gotten lost in the various arguments. I'm entering another strange character into the menagerie of CC; a dretch! I've put him in Terminus-Est's spot, because I wanted to use the name. I made him from scratch using the new character sheet template, would anyone mind looking over him and checking for glaring errors? I'd appreciate it. His sheet is here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=6576080#post6576080). Your potion of enlarge person wont work on an outsider; check out tatoo of expansion. Your font tags around class abilities is keeping us firefox users from reading it. Ranks in Ride? This looks to be interesting in a couple of levels. I'm going to go buy me some cold iron now. ;)
NiQil 11-23-05, 12:55 PM	For the assassin prestige class, it states that in order to join, you must kill someone solely to join the class. Is this something that can be accomplished in a miniquest, or must it be done in a full quest?
One_Winged_Angel 11-23-05, 12:59 PM	For the assassin prestige class, it states that in order to join, you must kill someone solely to join the class. Is this something that can be accomplished in a miniquest, or must it be done in a full quest? Methinks. Miniquest. All you need to do is the one battle.
Myrridin 11-23-05, 01:28 PM	Miniquest should suffice nicely.
Myrridin 11-23-05, 01:44 PM	Should anyone feel like starting a campaign soon, I would love to have my character run in it. Just, you know...throwing out interest in one. :)
Gonbow 11-23-05, 02:20 PM	@Cerebus Gack! I'll do so. There are a few-thousand tags in the new default sheet... @Guildmaster (TAO) Hmm, I thought I already removed the potion; I copied his expendables from my other characters. Off to fix the Demon ^_^ And yeah; what better way to get around the whole 20' move speed than a horse? ;) EDIT: Hopefully the tags should be fixed, can anyone check? @TheMagister Pssh, only DR 5. It's the 4 attacks a round that whoop-ass :P
TheMagister 11-23-05, 03:02 PM	A feat/ability/power/whatever called (I think) elude touch. It allows a character to add her Cha bonus to her Touch AC. I'm just positive that I've seen such an effect in the CoCo, and I can't find it anywhere in the SRD. Thanks! TM
NiQil 11-23-05, 03:04 PM	A feat/ability/power/whatever called (I think) elude touch. It allows a character to add her Cha bonus to her Touch AC. I'm just positive that I've seen such an effect in the CoCo, and I can't find it anywhere in the SRD. Thanks! TM It's a class ability of wilders, if memory serves.
TheMagister 11-23-05, 03:07 PM	It's a class ability of wilders, if memory serves. Memory does. I saw it on Anya Starfire's sheet, and then couldn't remember her name. Rats. Thanks! TM
Vathelokai 11-23-05, 04:24 PM	@Guildmaster (TAO) Hmm, I thought I already removed the potion; I copied his expendables from my other characters. Off to fix the Demon ^_^ And yeah; what better way to get around the whole 20' move speed than a horse? ;) EDIT: Hopefully the tags should be fixed, can anyone check? Tags are compatabel with firefox. Thanks. So is Terminus' "horse" going to be a component of the robot, or a seperate one? There's so many ways you could go with this. :)
NiQil 11-23-05, 04:32 PM	Tags are compatabel with firefox. Thanks. So is Terminus' "horse" going to be a component of the robot, or a seperate one? There's so many ways you could go with this. :) I was wondering the same thing....I was picturing something akin to the Constructicons from Transformers glory LOL...little robots that can join together and such.
Gonbow 11-23-05, 05:46 PM	Tags are compatabel with firefox. Thanks. So is Terminus' "horse" going to be a component of the robot, or a seperate one? There's so many ways you could go with this. :) No problem! The tag I was using was just a font tag... a little silly that FF cant read it, but eh <shrugs> Hmm. Probably going to have it be a motorcycle-like robot which Terminus slots into (loosely, to allow for dismounting attempts/etc). Think the motorcycle from Akira with a very stupid Kitt inside for a general idea. If only there was a way to get an undead horse, to model the inhumanity... Ooo, I know, I'll get leadership and get a vampire horse cohort! Fueled on the blood of living, a classic villian energy source for a vehicle.
Vathelokai 11-23-05, 06:10 PM	Think the motorcycle from Akira with a very stupid Kitt inside for a general idea. If only there was a way to get an undead horse, to model the inhumanity... Ooo, I know, I'll get leadership and get a vampire horse cohort! Fueled on the blood of living, a classic villian energy source for a vehicle. Love it. The vamp horse will never fly though. I tried to make a phrenic warhorse and found out that only humanoids or races with a listed ecl qualify to gain templates in CoCo. Cat's orders. It's a bit of a bummer, but I understand his thinking, and he has a point. Maybe you could bribe him with credits.
Gonbow 11-23-05, 06:24 PM	Love it. The vamp horse will never fly though. I tried to make a phrenic warhorse and found out that only humanoids or races with a listed ecl qualify to gain templates in CoCo. Cat's orders. It's a bit of a bummer, but I understand his thinking, and he has a point. Maybe you could bribe him with credits. Awwwww. Hmm. Is there anything with an ECL that is used as a mount? IIRC Nightmares... but that's way up there, alas =/
Vathelokai 11-23-05, 07:02 PM	Awwwww. Hmm. Is there anything with an ECL that is used as a mount? IIRC Nightmares... but that's way up there, alas =/ Well since vampire can only be applied to humanoids and monsterous humanoids, your pretty much limited to centaurs. But then, your dretch isn't really a robot in RAW...I say get the advanced blink dog if advanced creatures are allowed as cohorts..
nightbanegod 11-23-05, 07:39 PM	YAY its :turkey: day tomarrow.... who's got cool plans?
Book5 11-23-05, 07:49 PM	here are my plans - dont go to work dont leave my room (well my neighbor invited me to din tom so maybe once) dont leave the internet... (well I still havent beaten Grandia.... ) dont go to work Step two and three are kinda lame, but Im really diggin on 1 and 4 - (oh yeah - im still getting paid ! woot)
Macbrea 11-23-05, 08:15 PM	Just making sure.. When selling off old items they sell for half market value, correct? And if that is true anyone happen to know where it says that?
Book5 11-23-05, 08:36 PM	WOW So Im lookin at old threads looking for local info for things like - the crime syndicat, and the history of the EYE.. and I find this.. WOW 1. Magic items are crafted at 7/10 market value in gp, with no cost in xp, and with unlimited time between fights, time to create is no issue. 2. Non-magic items are crafted at 5/10 market value, with unlimited time between fights, time to craft is no issue. You must personally meet all prereqs to craft any item (magic or otherwise). You may not enlist help in any form from another PC or NPC (including cohorts) in crafting items. -Jindl WOW :mymy: How gladius has grown!
NiQil 11-23-05, 09:16 PM	Just making sure.. When selling off old items they sell for half market value, correct? And if that is true anyone happen to know where it says that? For your edification: SELLING LOOT In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price. Trade goods are the exception to the half-price rule. A trade good, in this sense, is a valuable good that can be easily exchanged almost as if it were cash itself.
nightbanegod 11-23-05, 09:43 PM	here are my plans - dont go to work dont leave my room (well my neighbor invited me to din tom so maybe once) dont leave the internet... (well I still havent beaten Grandia.... ) dont go to work Step two and three are kinda lame, but Im really diggin on 1 and 4 - (oh yeah - im still getting paid ! woot) sweet plans... mine are almost similiar... dont go to work leave my house (my girlfriends family invited me to dinner across the state) leave the internet (have to drive across state) dont go to work but yeah its all still good for partying P.S. how are fractional hit dice calculated for lycanthropes? im thinking of making one and im looking at odd animals to make one out of.
Gonbow 11-23-05, 10:38 PM	sweet plans... mine are almost similiar... dont go to work leave my house (my girlfriends family invited me to dinner across the state) leave the internet (have to drive across state) dont go to work but yeah its all still good for partying P.S. how are fractional hit dice calculated for lycanthropes? im thinking of making one and im looking at odd animals to make one out of. IIRC fractional hit dice are just bumped up to one full hit die.
nightbanegod 11-23-05, 11:15 PM	IIRC fractional hit dice are just bumped up to one full hit die. on a side note... what does IIRC stand for? :confused: i know dumb questions... :weep:
TelinArtho 11-23-05, 11:30 PM	If I Recall Correctly.
Iced 11-24-05, 04:48 PM	New Character Nesiris (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7782910&postcount=536). Feel free to look her over for errors.
Warclone 11-24-05, 05:17 PM	Hey guys I'm new to CoCo! Question about magic items: In my pnp campaign we upgrade items like from a +1 longsword to a +2 longsword by paying the difference in the two prices. Is that applicable here? Could I get some comments/suggestions/corrections to the characters I have made? Thud McSmash Savour Die
Tellish_of_Ket 11-24-05, 05:22 PM	Hey guys I'm new to CoCo! Question about magic items: In my pnp campaign we upgrade items like from a +1 longsword to a +2 longsword by paying the difference in the two prices. Is that applicable here? Could I get some comments/suggestions/corrections to the characters I have made? Thud McSmash Savour Die That's how we do it here as well. -ToK
TheMagister 11-24-05, 05:59 PM	@Tellish Memorex gives Sdentch fits, man. Good luck in the AvA! TM
Macbrea 11-25-05, 09:22 AM	Ok, someone want to fully explain how sniping, hiding within hide ranks of cover, LOS and observation are in effect in CoCo. As it will effect a large number of character within this game. There are alot of players that are building characters on the fact they snipe. I want a good explaination of how this is to work in CoCo.
Book5 11-25-05, 09:41 AM	Only thing I saw officially so far was an undecided elder vote, and then there is the "rules of the game" article I havent read really read through yet, that actually declares some of these things. I have been giving people the chance to hide at the start of round, move through a visible area, and then end the round hidden - presuming a not 360 awareness. ending the round in the open, or if what you do in LOS gets a listen check - then I free action (swift?) check again if that succeeds. otherwise I roll at the begging and end for senses and usually just at the end of round for hide/mosi. The topic came up with sauro and vath but when I corrected the coordinates to have all the starts and stops be behind cover that seemed to be fine. ----edit ok this is about the fight - yeah, ok - you have to make a bluff check to hide once your observed.
Macbrea 11-25-05, 09:57 AM	I am not worried about my fight. that was an easy correction. I want to know about how the you may hide with "Hide Ranks of Cover" effects CoCo. At 7th level a person may have 10 ranks of Hide. Does this mean they may declare they are hiding 10 feet out to the left of cover in the open? At 17th level this would seem to indicate that the person with 20 ranks in hide needs to be anywhere within 20ft of cover to declare they are hiding.
Vathelokai 11-25-05, 10:03 AM	Hey guys I'm new to CoCo! Could I get some comments/suggestions/corrections to the characters I have made? Thud McSmash Savour Die @Thud: You only have orc and common as languages, because of your int. grab a spiked gauntlet. If he makes his next two levels as psi-warrior his ammount of feats will be ... um, smashing. go buy a potion of clw to protect against bat swarms. buy a potion of prot. chaos to protect against summoned monsters. (prot. chaos covers all of them up to 5th lv. spells) buy a tatoo of synesthete to protect against blindness. your strength can break most things but you might want to consider a universal solvent. quivers only hold 20 arrows, so you have 5 of them. Check out characters like Ashur and Krunch to get inspiration. @Savour: You should cut out the age modifers at the top, since they are in the stat block ... it's kind of confusing. Spells memorized should be more diverse. Might I recommend hideous laughter, or a touch of ideocy/spectral hand combo? Or ghoul touch to paralyze? and of course the same set of expendables mentioned above, for the same reasons.
Book5 11-25-05, 10:07 AM	I am not worried about my fight. that was an easy correction. I want to know about how the you may hide with "Hide Ranks of Cover" effects CoCo. At 7th level a person may have 10 ranks of Hide. Does this mean they may declare they are hiding 10 feet out to the left of cover in the open? At 17th level this would seem to indicate that the person with 20 ranks in hide needs to be anywhere within 20ft of cover to declare they are hiding. When you do that you move to a covered location.
Vathelokai 11-25-05, 10:11 AM	I am not worried about my fight. that was an easy correction. I want to know about how the you may hide with "Hide Ranks of Cover" effects CoCo. At 7th level a person may have 10 ranks of Hide. Does this mean they may declare they are hiding 10 feet out to the left of cover in the open? At 17th level this would seem to indicate that the person with 20 ranks in hide needs to be anywhere within 20ft of cover to declare they are hiding. You are correct in your assessment. It's in the rules thread, under miscelaneous/house rules. (last post). Ranks is rounded down, so with 19 ranks, you could only hide 15 ft. from a rock. And no, I have no idea how they came up with that. I think the idea was you can run from pillar to pillar and still be hiding. As for the 'being observed' thing, once you are spotted you are unable to hide again in that square, until you move. The only way around it is bluff (create a distraction) or hide in plain sight ability. So in a shoot out, you could 5 ft step every round to regain your hiddeness.
Book5 11-25-05, 10:19 AM	where is this distance refrenced? ah "While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast."
Macbrea 11-25-05, 10:25 AM	Errr, that is wonky rules. Watch this effect: Johnny has 10 ranks of hide and has been spotted by Billy. x x . . . . . . . . . . b x x . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x j . . . . . x x . . . . . . . . . Johny takes a 5ft step and hides x x . . . . . . . . . . b x x . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x . j . . . . x x . . . . . . . . . Because johnny is considered within 10ft of cover he is assumed to hide behind the cover? x x . . . . . . . . . . b x x . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x j . . . . . x x . . . . . . . . . That just seems odd.
Vathelokai 11-25-05, 10:26 AM	where is this distance refrenced? ah Rules of gladius: Core Coliseum Miscellaneous: Universal House Rules: sneaking (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7019084)You are autospotted if you leave cover or concealment, and opponent has Line of Sight to you and you are more than 1 foot per rank in hide away from a cover. Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use the Bluff skill to help you hide. A successful Bluff check gives you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Hide check while people are aware of you. This usage does not provoke an attack of opportunity. ... A Bluff check made to feint in combat or create a diversion to hide is a standard action. Where did you find that -10 fast movement quote at?
Book5 11-25-05, 10:28 AM	incorrect macbrea - you only use that distance to deterine if you can make a bluff to distract and move to the cover (three skill checks one action - thats why the special distance circumstance).
Book5 11-25-05, 10:29 AM	Rules of gladius: Core Coliseum Miscellaneous: Universal House Rules: sneaking (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7019084) wait so you can be outside of cover and still not be unhid.. at the end of the round
Vathelokai 11-25-05, 10:33 AM	wait so you can be outside of cover and still not be unhid.. at the end of the round That's the part I'm not sure about. *Edit* These skills are often used incorrectly. Please read the Spot skill description carefully. A quick clarification on how Hide/Spot works: First of all, if a character has no cover or concealment at the end of his turn, he cannot hide. If he has no cover or concealment at the beginning of his turn, but manages to move to cover or concealment by the end of the turn, he can hide, but his opponent will know exactly where he last lost sight of the guy hiding. Note that hiding is not an action; if a character has cover, he will automatically try to hide. Don't forget about the -5 for moving faster than full speed, though, or the -20 for running or sniping. Secondly, an opponent gets one reactive Spot roll every round in the opponent's round, if line of sight is not completely blocked. For the distance modifier, use the closest distance the opponent was to the spotter in the round. If th e spotter wants to make a Spot roll during his own action, he'll have to use a move action.
Vathelokai 11-25-05, 10:40 AM	Errr, that is wonky rules. That just seems odd. I agree, but I think the idea is that since your character only physicly takes up 1/4 of the square, by moving the character is repositioning in a better part of the square to get covered again.
Book5 11-25-05, 10:42 AM	ok ok so - If you move into line of sight - you have x number of feet to break LOS again or you loose your hide. Interesting, seems unecessary - The start and end works in relation. If you dont get back into cover before the end of turn you are are auto spotted. I wouldnt give a character its hide ranks in "cover blanket"
Usurpator 11-25-05, 11:21 AM	Once you are spotted/observed, you need to break LOS completely to rehide. Cover (ranks = feet or no) alone doesn't allow you to rehide. This makes sense as well, since the person observing you can keep tracking you even if you gain cover. Only when he has lost track of you completely (i.e. no LOS) then you can start hiding again. Once you have broken LOS and have rehidden, you can move into the open without being observed automatically, if there is a hiding place within ranks= feet of your position. Visualize it as darting quickly between the cover/concealment and your actual position on the map to remain hidden if you will.
Usurpator 11-25-05, 11:26 AM	wait so you can be outside of cover and still not be unhid.. at the end of the round That is because in D&D round work sequentially, while in actuallity they are continously. Normally it shouldn't matter if you cross the distance between two hiding places in one round or divided across two rounds, because in actuality, you would be moving the same speed between the two hiding places. The hiding rule just a helping hand to the simulation: "I move to the next pillar when he is looking the other way", since you cannot do that in D&D normally. Don't forget that someone with 10 ranks in hide is truly an expert in staying hidden and should be able to sneak up on you in broad daylight with minimal cover.
Warclone 11-25-05, 12:29 PM	@Thud: You only have orc and common as languages, because of your int. grab a spiked gauntlet. If he makes his next two levels as psi-warrior his ammount of feats will be ... um, smashing. go buy a potion of clw to protect against bat swarms. buy a potion of prot. chaos to protect against summoned monsters. (prot. chaos covers all of them up to 5th lv. spells) buy a tatoo of synesthete to protect against blindness. your strength can break most things but you might want to consider a universal solvent. quivers only hold 20 arrows, so you have 5 of them. Check out characters like Ashur and Krunch to get inspiration. @Savour: You should cut out the age modifers at the top, since they are in the stat block ... it's kind of confusing. Spells memorized should be more diverse. Might I recommend hideous laughter, or a touch of ideocy/spectral hand combo? Or ghoul touch to paralyze? and of course the same set of expendables mentioned above, for the same reasons. Thanks, these are good suggestions. If I took 2 levels of psi warrior, though, wouldnt I incur some multiclass penalties unless I kept psi warrior and fighter within 2 levels of eachother? Do you reccommend I do that? Regarding Shmash's languages, I should have marked it, but I got those extra languages from skill points into speak language (nothing else really worth putting them into)
nightbanegod 11-25-05, 12:54 PM	That is because in D&D round work sequentially, while in actuallity they are continously. Normally it shouldn't matter if you cross the distance between two hiding places in one round or divided across two rounds, because in actuality, you would be moving the same speed between the two hiding places. The hiding rule just a helping hand to the simulation: "I move to the next pillar when he is looking the other way", since you cannot do that in D&D normally. Don't forget that someone with 10 ranks in hide is truly an expert in staying hidden and should be able to sneak up on you in broad daylight with minimal cover. UGH... you should see the debate i had to have with a player in a campaign im running. he's got a few magical items and stats that are pretty decent so hes got a +17 hide check at lvl 5 and was trying to effectively hide from an 18th lvl old aged druid. in about ankle high grass in the middle of a field.... it was not a fun conversation...
Book5 11-25-05, 08:14 PM	Visualize it as darting quickly between the cover/concealment and your actual position on the map to remain hidden if you will. Were really allowed to "lead the base" like that? Thats nice for Tan, and thats only actual "ranks in hide" right?
Vathelokai 11-25-05, 08:20 PM	Thanks, these are good suggestions. If I took 2 levels of psi warrior, though, wouldnt I incur some multiclass penalties unless I kept psi warrior and fighter within 2 levels of eachother? Do you reccommend I do that? Regarding Shmash's languages, I should have marked it, but I got those extra languages from skill points into speak language (nothing else really worth putting them into) I thought he only had 6 skill points and all of them were in listen? In any event, it is a rule here that spot, listen, hide and move silent have to be listed on everybodys character sheeets. Even if you put "-8 move silent [never!]" , it still has to be in the skills. Yeah, if you went psi-war you would have to keep the levels even. You could do whatever with the barbarian levels, since they're a favored class. As for what to do with him in the long run, I don't know. I don't see any prestige class that he really fits with. The fighter/psiwar/barbarian combo is a strong one. You could take psionic feats, but with the low wisdom, he would have trouble using powers. Psi-war wouldn't really pan out unless you raised his wisdom by item or leveling.
Huan 11-25-05, 09:05 PM	Funny how the holidays really slow progress with the Quests/Campaigns, no?
Vathelokai 11-25-05, 09:43 PM	Alrighty ... New character, Hassan Sabbah up for inspection.
Vathelokai 11-25-05, 11:49 PM	Was it ever determined if a character with a Caster Level of 0 is allowed to use scrolls? And another question: Spider climb was rewritten to say "you must have you hands free [to climb]". Can you use a two handed weapon if you don't move at all? Could you climb up 30 ft., then use a bow?
Guildmaster (EYE) 11-26-05, 09:05 AM	im not sure if there's a CoCo house rule on this, but... SRD Activate the Spell Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll. Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus. (The creator of the scroll provided these when scribing the scroll.) Note that some spells are effective only when cast on an item or items. In such a case, the scroll user must provide the item when activating the spell. Activating a scroll spell is subject to disruption just as casting a normally prepared spell would be. Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance. To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements. The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.) The user must have the spell on his or her class list. The user must have the requisite ability score. If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps, below). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers. Example for clarity would be Maggie the 1st level Mage comes across a scroll of Fireball (CL5). It's Arcane, and she's a mage...check. It's on her list of available spells and not from an opposed school, and she's not a Bard or something (thank the gods). She needs at least a 13 INT to cast a 3rd level spell...check. So inorder to cast off the scroll she'd need a DC 6 (Scroll CL 5 +1) to make it work. Of course, i could be completely off my rocker...
Vathelokai 11-26-05, 09:50 AM	I believe the debate a couple weeks ago was about if a 1st lv ranger can use a scroll. The ranger would fit all the criteria, but could not cast spells yet, thus a CL of zero.
Ayrynthyn 11-26-05, 10:34 AM	i wasn't privi to the debate, but i would submit no... a 1st level ranger cannot cast from a scrolll SRD - Ranger entry Spells Beginning at 4th level, a ranger gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the ranger spell list. A ranger must choose and prepare his spells in advance (see below). To prepare or cast a spell, a ranger must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a ranger’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the ranger’s Wisdom modifier. Like other spellcasters, a ranger can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Ranger. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score. When Table: The Ranger indicates that the ranger gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Wisdom score for that spell level. The ranger does not have access to any domain spells or granted powers, as a cleric does. A ranger prepares and casts spells the way a cleric does, though he cannot lose a prepared spell to cast a cure spell in its place. A ranger may prepare and cast any spell on the ranger spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation. Through 3rd level, a ranger has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is one-half his ranger level. emphasis mine... a 1st level ranger does not have a 0 CL... he has *no* caster level. Same verbiage is used in the Paladin entry as well. Same would go for them i think. Again, i wasnt privi to the debate, and lack of a search makes researcing it here...difficult, but that would be my initail feel.
Macbrea 11-26-05, 10:53 AM	They can still use wands though... Spell Trigger Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Mal-2 11-26-05, 12:06 PM	emphasis mine... a 1st level ranger does not have a 0 CL... he has *no* caster level. Same verbiage is used in the Paladin entry as well. Same would go for them i think. Again, i wasnt privi to the debate, and lack of a search makes researcing it here...difficult, but that would be my initail feel. The debate was sparked by this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041116a) Rules of the Game article. The first time you read the article, it clearly says rangers and paladins can use scrolls with thier caster level of 0. The second time you read it, you notice that he switches from talking about spell completion items (scrolls) to talking about spell trigger items (wands) in mid sentence. I think it's a copy & paste error of some sort, and the intent is to let rangers and paladins read appropriate scrolls, but it's really quite unclear.
Cerebus13 11-27-05, 05:41 PM	Bumping this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7829691&postcount=385) post to the front for clairification. Does flurry no longer grant extra grapple options when used in a grapple? Can you only use it to hit your opponent more?
King Uther 11-27-05, 05:45 PM	I'm back!!!!!!!! I have some tings to take care of, but expect some great things soon.
Vathelokai 11-27-05, 11:49 PM	Uh oh... The tavern has exceeded 1000 posts again. Looks like it's time for tavern 5!
Dracazar 11-28-05, 04:32 PM	Bestow Power (Psion2): You link your mind with another psionic creature’s mind, creating a brief conduit through which mental energy can be shared. When you manifest this power, the subject gains up to 2 power points. You can transfer only as many power points to a subject as it has manifester levels. Is this a valid prebuff?
Vathelokai 11-28-05, 04:47 PM	Bestow Power (Psion2): You link your mind with another psionic creature’s mind, creating a brief conduit through which mental energy can be shared. When you manifest this power, the subject gains up to 2 power points. You can transfer only as many power points to a subject as it has manifester levels. Is this a valid prebuff? Could be, but I don't believe that you can use it to exceed your max PP.
Book5 11-28-05, 05:52 PM	@All/Elders OK I looked at it twice and now Im still confused. Some some questions. How are the team battle rewards calculated? I figure about the third time I looked at that two 5s vs two 5s garners one reward for each character (as oppsed to two ) but that leads me to another question. Auburn and Tan (&popper) were ~ECL 4 vs Ashhur ECL 5. Does Ashhur get two rewards (one ecl5 for auburn, one ecl3 for tan)? Or one reward (ecl4) for the opposing team? If thats the case do Tan and Auburn calculate rewards seperatly (ecl5 vs 5 and ecl3 vs 5)? or togerther (ecl4 vs ecl5)? And finally, Since Tan would recieve more XP/GP than a looser is allowed, does the -25% come off before or after the reduction to 300xp/gp for Tan? edit: Thank you Iced! Tatyana & Lief WIN [(1125/2)+(900/2)][+1012 xp][+1012 gp] Tatyana USED: Levitation, pro chaos Lief USED: alterself, mage armour, pro chaos, MM (CL3, x2) Lief and Tatyana both make 57 gp from skills. Fjord & Tak LOST [(225/2+(300/2)] [+263xp] [263gp] Fjord USED: Invisibility Tak USED: Nothing. Looks like the hounds come in before the average - ouch auburn is gonna hurt for this one, but tan will actually make out better.
Altaris13 11-28-05, 06:00 PM	A belatedly Happy Holiday to all of my fellow American's who celebrated the familial holiday of Thanksgiving.
Dracazar 11-28-05, 06:24 PM	My character would go on quest for a diplomacy ally. He needs Diplomacy +12 to gain the creature. May I quest for a +12 creature if I have +8 diplomacy with a buff of +4 diplomacy? Do I need to have +12 diplomacy every time I use the creature in fights (or only in the miniquest)? If I must have +12 every time I use the creature may I use every time the same buff? Thanks
Warclone 11-28-05, 07:54 PM	What would be the craft bowmaking DC for an adamantite arrow? Where can I find this information?
Vathelokai 11-28-05, 11:39 PM	@All/Elders OK I looked at it twice and now Im still confused. Some some questions. How are the team battle rewards calculated? I figure about the third time I looked at that two 5s vs two 5s garners one reward for each character (as oppsed to two ) but that leads me to another question. Auburn and Tan (&popper) were ~ECL 4 vs Ashhur ECL 5. Does Ashhur get two rewards (one ecl5 for auburn, one ecl3 for tan)? Or one reward (ecl4) for the opposing team? If thats the case do Tan and Auburn calculate rewards seperatly (ecl5 vs 5 and ecl3 vs 5)? or togerther (ecl4 vs ecl5)? And finally, Since Tan would recieve more XP/GP than a looser is allowed, does the -25% come off before or after the reduction to 300xp/gp for Tan? edit: Thank you Iced! Looks like the hounds come in before the average - ouch auburn is gonna hurt for this one, but tan will actually make out better. As I understand it ... 1. You get what you would win if it was a solo fight. 2. Then you divide by three if you loose. 3. Then you cap your earnings if you loose. 4. Then you add/subtract your allies %. 5. Then you add the total for each member of your team. 6. Then you divide the total by the number of members in your team. Hunter fights make this a little strange, but for all other fights, I'm pretty sure that's how it works.
Warclone 11-29-05, 12:19 AM	New Character: Thwap McSmash Comments/corrections/suggestions?
Vathelokai 11-29-05, 07:41 AM	New Character: Thwap McSmash Comments/corrections/suggestions? You should probably change your tatoo of entangling ectoplasm to a crawling tatoo, unless you want to target yourself. Price is the same Since thicken skin is a personal power, the tatoo costs 100 gp instead of 50. Your bow has a higher strength bonus then you can use; you will take negatives a -2 to hit with it. You should put your spiked gauntlet under attacks. You should consider buying a halbard with your winnings. And of course potions of CLW, prot. chaos, universal solvent, and a tatoo of synesthete.
Warclone 11-29-05, 09:56 AM	You should probably change your tatoo of entangling ectoplasm to a crawling tatoo, unless you want to target yourself. Price is the same Since thicken skin is a personal power, the tatoo costs 100 gp instead of 50. Your bow has a higher strength bonus then you can use; you will take negatives a -2 to hit with it. You should put your spiked gauntlet under attacks. You should consider buying a halbard with your winnings. And of course potions of CLW, prot. chaos, universal solvent, and a tatoo of synesthete. Thanks for the tips. I have the -2 figured in to my attack rolls with my bow, the idea is that I use it when I'm raging. I didn't bother to write down spiked gauntlet stats because it is mostly for flavor, since armor spikes does everything spiked aremor does but with better dice. Also, why do you reccommend I get a halberd?
Dracazar 11-29-05, 12:04 PM	Spiritual Weapon breaks Sanctuary? Thanks
SoulLord 11-29-05, 12:34 PM	Spiritual Weapon breaks Sanctuary? Thanks Yes it breaks it from the srd on sanctuary The subject cannot attack without breaking the spell but may use nonattack spells or otherwise act.
Dracazar 11-29-05, 12:59 PM	Yes it breaks it from the srd on sanctuary I'm asking because it is quite similar to a summon spell and summon spells does not break sanctuary.
Guildmaster (EYE) 11-29-05, 04:14 PM	An older Hearld appears outside the Tavern, lantern in one hand, and ringing a bell with the other… "Hear Yea Hear Yea, All you Gladiators and Gladiat…esses. Tired of paying for room and board? Got no one to boast to about your latest Arena Victory? Consider ye’selve bit of a master at Stealth and Guile? Know all there is to know about Gladius, and know where to find out what you don’t? Look no further!! The Watchful Eye (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=520510) has opened and gazes upon you!! Come shape the future of Gladius, and leave your mark upon it….(evilcharactersneed notapply. Minimumrequirements mustbemetforguildinduction. Allsalesarefinal. 3freebedsareavailable. Miniquestswillberequired foranyadditionalapplicantsbeyond3)" …just as he was stainding there, the hearald disappears right before your eyes. Come join in the fun that is the LivingGuilds. All that's required from you, is to head on over and drop a post in the link above. In character if you please, and your in. The inintial premis of the guild is the Secret Service rebuilding the Law enforcement structure from... behind the scenes. Your actions and input will directly affect wether it stays on course or heads in... another direction :evillaugh:. So grab your favorite Hide/Move or Gather/K:Local char and head on over. Don't be shy, we wont bite... unless thats what your in to ;). oh.. and did i mention... we will have Punch and Pie!
Usurpator 11-29-05, 04:51 PM	Since Nexa just acquired a Dire Bat animal companion: Can you ride your Dire Bat animal companion without training, or does it have to be taught the Combat Riding package first?
NiQil 11-29-05, 04:59 PM	Since Nexa just acquired a Dire Bat animal companion: Can you ride your Dire Bat animal companion without training, or does it have to be taught the Combat Riding package first? Riding (DC 15): An animal trained to bear a rider knows the tricks come, heel, and stay. Training an animal for riding takes three weeks. The above would be the minimum needed to ride the dire bat, however it would not be able to take any combat oriented actions such as attacking or defending. The Combat Riding package is definitely the better choice, but you would not be able to do both unless the creature has an Int higher than 2, because the stay trick is not part of the combat riding package, so doing the riding package first and then upgrading to combat riding later would require a total of 7 tricks. Bear in mind, however, that as an animal companion, the animal gets to add bonus tricks that do not require training. I am not certain, but I believe since you earned this animal untrained, you would need to train it or pay to train it for each trick it can know due to it's Int score (3 for 1, 6 for 2). Each bonus trick that it gets due to your druid levels does not require training.
Usurpator 11-29-05, 05:14 PM	NiQil, thanks for your reply. If what you say is true, it does mean that Cat is in violation since Indrinar has a druid cohort with a Dire Bat animal companion. The animal companion knows the following tricks: Tricks: Seek, Attack, Perform (tap), Improved Attack, Guard, Down, GrappleB, DefendB This does not fit either the Riding or Combat Riding package, but there are fights were either the cohort or Indri himself has ridden the Dire Bat.....
Snommelp 11-29-05, 05:20 PM	NiQil, thanks for your reply. If what you say is true, it does mean that Cat is in violation since Indrinar has a druid cohort with a Dire Bat animal companion. The animal companion knows the following tricks: Tricks: Seek, Attack, Perform (tap), Improved Attack, Guard, Down, GrappleB, DefendB This does not fit either the Riding or Combat Riding package, but there are fights were either the cohort or Indri himself has ridden the Dire Bat..... It's not technically a violation, since it's not something that can be fixed. It's bad tactics that went unchecked until this point, and now we'll have to keep an eye on it.
NiQil 11-29-05, 05:26 PM	It's not technically a violation, since it's not something that can be fixed. It's bad tactics that went unchecked until this point, and now we'll have to keep an eye on it. I disagree. If it does not know the required tricks to be used for a specific purpose (the Riding package for strictly riding or the Combat Riding package for riding and attacking and such), then it should not be able to be used in those respective fashions, as per the Handle Animal skill explanation in the SRD. If it has been used that way in the past without knowing the proper tricks, then it is in violation, and should be fixed. The tricks it knows should reflect the way it can and has been used. Even if it is *not determined to be a violation by the Prisonlord (assuming someone wants to put in a violation on it....I may, but feel free to beat me to the punch), then it should not be allowed to be used for those purposes in the future until it knows the proper tricks.
Usurpator 11-29-05, 05:43 PM	Another case in point from a more recent combatant Mer-man recently defeated Hagrid (and previously Brilf) by performing a charging dive with his Hippogriff, Battra. Battra has the following tricks: Tricks: Attack, Improved Attack, Defend, Seek, Perform (tap), Come Clearly Battra doesn't have the Riding or Combat Riding package. If Cat thinks that Combat Riding or Riding is not required, that started me wondering if any tricks are actually required for similar animal to be ridden.
SoulLord 11-29-05, 05:43 PM	I don't think it would be a violation since quoting the srd on that matter. “Push” an Animal To push an animal means to get it to perform a task or trick that it doesn’t know but is physically capable of performing. This category also covers making an animal perform a forced march or forcing it to hustle for more than 1 hour between sleep cycles. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action. The bat would be capable of doing the task as long as it was pushed to do it.
Usurpator 11-29-05, 05:50 PM	I don't think it would be a violation since quoting the srd on that matter. The bat would be capable of doing the task as long as it was pushed to do it. That is a possible explanation. So, do you need one DC 25 Handle Animal check to convince a Dire Bat to act as a mount, since using a creature as mount is not a particular trick but rather a 'task' as you quoted. And you can prebuff this push by taking 20 before combat? If it is a once-per-round thing, what happens if you fail your push while you Dire Bat hangs in mid-air? Does it get to make a Trip attack against you?
NiQil 11-29-05, 05:50 PM	I don't think it would be a violation since quoting the srd on that matter. The bat would be capable of doing the task as long as it was pushed to do it. This is true.....*if it was done in the battle....which I kind of doubt. I have yet to see a battle where someone used the push action to direct an animal. If I get time, I'll look. @ Usurpator: What SoulLord quoted would allow you to use them untrained, as long as you think you can consistantly make the "push" check.
Dracazar 11-29-05, 06:51 PM	Ready for audit: Shaz Cher Thank you very much
Macbrea 11-29-05, 06:57 PM	@ Usurpator: What SoulLord quoted would allow you to use them untrained, as long as you think you can consistantly make the "push" check. Action Varies. Handling an animal is a move action, while pushing an animal is a full-round action. (A druid or ranger can handle her animal companion as a free action or push it as a move action.)
Cerebus13 11-29-05, 07:05 PM	Action Varies. Handling an animal is a move action, while pushing an animal is a full-round action. (A druid or ranger can handle her animal companion as a free action or push it as a move action.)Check out this (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050201a) Rules of the Game article on mounts. It specifically mentions that mounts not trained with the Combat Riding package are "unruly" in battle and have specific rules concerning how to handle them.
Huan 11-29-05, 08:01 PM	New Character: Thwap McSmash Comments/corrections/suggestions? What a small world, a favored player under me once played an ogre barbarian named Thrack MacSmasher, heh heh. (What a coincidence, really...) On the riding thing: Nexa MAY ride the Dire Bat as mount with no Tricks required. The whole point of the 'capture' miniquest was for Nexa to use her Handle Animal to capture and tame the beast. Since she succeeded, and the beast in question is capable of being a mount [1) Is one size larger than the rider, and 2) Can support the rider's weight], she can now ride it, even without the riding package. Its a COCO houserule (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6466763&postcount=13).
Book5 11-29-05, 08:20 PM	oh.. and did i mention... we will have Punch and Pie! And Ba'als too. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7830049&postcount=548) first recruit of the newly reformed gladius secret service (EYE) ready for inspection sir! - Heh, never really worked alot with psionics 3.5, very interesting. He has a little growing to do, but he is starting out all right I think.
Cerebus13 11-29-05, 08:28 PM	On the riding thing: Nexa MAY ride the Dire Bat as mount with no Tricks required. The whole point of the 'capture' miniquest was for Nexa to use her Handle Animal to capture and tame the beast. Since she succeeded, and the beast in question is capable of being a mount [1) Is one size larger than the rider, and 2) Can support the rider's weight], she can now ride it, even without the riding package. Its a COCO houserule (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6466763&postcount=13).Where does it talk about mounts and skills in that post? I can't seem to find it anywhere.
NiQil 11-29-05, 09:03 PM	What a small world, a favored player under me once played an ogre barbarian named Thrack MacSmasher, heh heh. (What a coincidence, really...) On the riding thing: Nexa MAY ride the Dire Bat as mount with no Tricks required. The whole point of the 'capture' miniquest was for Nexa to use her Handle Animal to capture and tame the beast. Since she succeeded, and the beast in question is capable of being a mount [1) Is one size larger than the rider, and 2) Can support the rider's weight], she can now ride it, even without the riding package. Its a COCO houserule (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6466763&postcount=13). I wonder if you read the Rules thread on this issue, Huan....because it seems to contradict what you just said. It mentions nothing other than the animal can be used untrained. It mentions nothing about *not needing to meet the requirements of the Handle Animal tricks in order to make an untrained mount rideable. Unless there is something somewhere else that states that you do not need to meet trick requirements to make an untrained mount rideable, then the RAW should be followed. Note also that Nexa is referring to a druid animal companion, rather than a Handle Animal ally. You may tame and train an animal with the Handle Animal Skill. This requires two steps. First, you must find the animal in question, and usually (though not always) defeat it. You will need to take part in a Miniquest for this purpose (or a regular 3-week Quest if you want). Once aquired, it can be used although those animals are always untrained. The second step is training the animal. This requires a certain amount of time (see the FAQ: Skills Handle Animal description for details on training and time), and a Handle Animal check, which you must take 10 on. Once both steps are completed, you have your animal ally. Note that all Handle Animal allies require a share of your xp and gold if they participate in a fight (see below for details). Handled Animals always use the abilities presented in their entry. For a complete list of all possible Handle Animal Allies, see below.
Huan 11-30-05, 12:10 AM	Note also that Nexa is referring to a druid animal companion, rather than a Handle Animal ally. Well then, it seems we're on completely separate pages... very well, I withdraw. Continue discusion.
Sindorin 11-30-05, 01:21 AM	This probably very far-fetched and will make me sound stupid, but I am tired enough as it is and about to fall asleep. I have a quick question about ranged touches, wands, and masterwork quality items. Could one craft a wand with the masterwork quality? Would masterwork quality add a +1 bonus to, say, ranged touch attack rolls? If this is possible, would a craft roll vs. a DC need to be made in order to make the wand masterwork? It probably wouldn't be possible, but I'm just curious.
Snommelp 11-30-05, 01:33 AM	Two characters plan to mini-quest to join WAR this week: my Grik and NiQil's Methos. Are mini-quests randomly assigned like arena fights or taken by questlords like full quests?
Iced 11-30-05, 01:51 AM	Two characters plan to mini-quest to join WAR this week: my Grik and NiQil's Methos. Are mini-quests randomly assigned like arena fights or taken by questlords like full quests? minis are randomly assigned. If you want it in a seperate thread then pm the pitlord as soon as pairings are rolled and ask for one.
Maraxus 11-30-05, 03:38 AM	@Sindorin, about Sig: 6) ... I usually check the invisible castle, to see, who my characters are paired against, before the matchings are posted in the characters-thread. :)
Dracazar 11-30-05, 04:12 AM	My character would go on quest for a diplomacy ally. He needs Diplomacy +12 to gain the creature. May I quest for a +12 creature if I have +8 diplomacy with a buff of +4 diplomacy? Do I need to have +12 diplomacy every time I use the creature in fights (or only in the miniquest)? If I must have +12 every time I use the creature may I use every time the same buff? Thanks Any elder about this? Thanks
Vathelokai 11-30-05, 08:08 AM	Two characters plan to mini-quest to join WAR this week: my Grik and NiQil's Methos. Are mini-quests randomly assigned like arena fights or taken by questlords like full quests? PM pitlords and questlords with the player, questlord, and purpose of the mini-quest. Mini-quests are setup the same way quests are if you want them in a seperate thread. If you want to run them like an arena fight, Pitlords will assign a pitlord to the mq.
Vathelokai 11-30-05, 08:09 AM	This probably very far-fetched and will make me sound stupid, but I am tired enough as it is and about to fall asleep. I have a quick question about ranged touches, wands, and masterwork quality items. Could one craft a wand with the masterwork quality? Would masterwork quality add a +1 bonus to, say, ranged touch attack rolls? If this is possible, would a craft roll vs. a DC need to be made in order to make the wand masterwork? It probably wouldn't be possible, but I'm just curious. Nope. It's weapon-like, not an actual weapon. And all magic items are masterwork the way they are by description.
Macbrea 11-30-05, 09:06 AM	I am correct in that if Gorak has a Long Composite bow (+4 str) wants a Masterwork Long Composite bow (+4 str) he needs to sell his old bow (at half price) and buy a new one (at full price)?
lonewolf 11-30-05, 09:09 AM	I am correct in that if Gorak has a Long Composite bow (+4 str) wants a Masterwork Long Composite bow (+4 str) he needs to sell his old bow (at half price) and buy a new one (at full price)? only Masterwork bows can have a bonus to damage from Strenght, so your non-masterwork Long Composite bow (+4 str) was illegal in the first place. EDIT:I was wrong with that. and yes, you have to sell the old one and buy a new one.
Macbrea 11-30-05, 09:14 AM	only Masterwork bows can have a bonus to damage from Strenght, so your non-masterwork Long Composite bow (+4 str) was illegal in the first place. and yes, you have to sell the old one and buy a new one. Not sure where you saw that a long composite bow must be masterwork to have a strength bonus. It isn't in the description of the bow. Longbow, Composite You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. You can use a composite longbow while mounted. All composite bows are made with a particular strength rating (that is, each requires a minimum Strength modifier to use with proficiency). If your Strength bonus is less than the strength rating of the composite bow, you can’t effectively use it, so you take a -2 penalty on attacks with it. The default composite longbow requires a Strength modifier of +0 or higher to use with proficiency. A composite longbow can be made with a high strength rating to take advantage of an above-average Strength score; this feature allows you to add your Strength bonus to damage, up to the maximum bonus indicated for the bow. Each point of Strength bonus granted by the bow adds 100 gp to its cost. For purposes of weapon proficiency and similar feats, a composite longbow is treated as if it were a longbow. Also to craft any masterwork item is a DC 20 check. To craft Composite longbow or composite shortbow with high strength rating Check: 15 + (2 × rating). Which seems to indicate that it wouldn't be masterwork.
SoulLord 11-30-05, 11:11 AM	Quick question regarding guild membership. what happens if a level 6 character currently in a guild levels up before the guild has upgraded living quarters. Is she kicked out of the guild until upgraded living quarters can be built for her?
TelinArtho 11-30-05, 11:13 AM	This is answered in the rules on guilds I think, but essentially, your character only earns the guild 1% tax until a room is freed up for him.
Altaris13 11-30-05, 11:19 AM	I need a questlord please. Mini Mindbreaker (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6862265) would like to mini-quest to join the PSI Consortieum.
SoulLord 11-30-05, 11:30 AM	This is answered in the rules on guilds I think, but essentially, your character only earns the guild 1% tax until a room is freed up for him. Do you have a link on this? I can't seem to find it. guild rules (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6467442)
TelinArtho 11-30-05, 11:33 AM	Sorry - its in the guild hall thread here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7221235&postcount=4). Note: You can put PCs in a Quarter one tier lower than they normally need (Example: mid-level PC in a Basic Living Quarter) but in that case this PC always produces only 1% Tax.
NiQil 11-30-05, 11:58 AM	@ Cat & ToK For your edification, so that you can see that the Elders made the right call on bats and toads, take a look at this article: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/tt/20051129a It talks about familiars and animal companions, and in the article it uses the example of a toad delivering the touch spell shocking grasp as a use for a familiar in combat (second paragraph under the section Familiars in Combat).
SauroGrenom 11-30-05, 12:34 PM	I have a question for the experts. This is mostly in regard to an Audit I did recently. Can an gladiator "renew" a scroll or powerstone that has multiple powers and where only one or two were used in a fight? I'll give an example to help clarify the question: Crunk had a stone of Vigor at ML3 with 5 copies of the power stored in the stone, this cost him (5x150=750gp). In a battle he used 2 of the copies. After the battle, he wants to have another stone with 5 copies of Vigor ML3. So the question is how much does it cost him. One opinion states that it only costs him 2x150=300gp to "renew" the two uses of Vigor. The other opinion states that it costs 750gp and that Crunk can sell his old stone if he wants for (3x150)/2=225gp. Thus Crunk spends 750-225=525gp to "renew" his stone. There are basically two parts of the discussion. First is it possible to scribe a spell into the blank parchment of a partly used scroll(or powerstone)? Second if that answer is yes then is it possable to aquire this service in the CoCo? With regard to the first question, there is no place in the SRD that tells us it is not possable, atleast that I can find. In the description of scrolls we know that the spell fades from the scroll and cannot be used any longer after the scroll is used. But scrolls like this are simular to other expendible items. Can you craft back the used charges on a wand, or "renew" a partly used Robe of Bones? Can you forge in one more wish into a partly used ring of wishes. There are very few examples of expendible magic items that allow their charges to be restored. It is my opinon that when you scribe a scroll, you are scribing the whole scroll not just a part of it. When making any magic item you must give uninterupted time and expense to produce the desired item, and it is unreasonable to allow scrolls the be an exception. Thus you cannot restore items like this. Some may point out that magical arms and armor can be enchanted in stages where a +1 weapon is used as the basis to craft a +2 weapon and the crafting cost is only the difference between crafting the two. That is true, but weapons and armor are not expendable magic items, so this does not realy apply. Weapons and armor must be masterwork, and there is no such thing as a masterwork scroll. The comparison realy breaks down and doesn't apply very well. As for the second question, the SRD allows you to hire spellcasting services. There is no place where you can hire crafting services. Fully crafted items are purchased in the marketplace at full price. There is not other access to crafting for players at CoCo. I'd like to hear any well reasoned dissagreements, and perhaps they can be worked out here.
SauroGrenom 11-30-05, 12:36 PM	@ Cat & ToK For your edification, so that you can see that the Elders made the right call on bats and toads, take a look at this article: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/tt/20051129a It talks about familiars and animal companions, and in the article it uses the example of a toad delivering the touch spell shocking grasp as a use for a familiar in combat (second paragraph under the section Familiars in Combat). That article also mentions that animals not trained with the "Down" trick will flee when wounded badly. I think that statement contradics the definition of the "Down" trick, but is in agreement with other suggestions in the handle animal skill. What to make of that is anyone's guess.
NiQil 11-30-05, 12:43 PM	That article also mentions that animals not trained with the "Down" trick will flee when wounded badly. I think that statement contradics the definition of the "Down" trick, but is in agreement with other suggestions in the handle animal skill. What to make of that is anyone's guess. Reread the Down trick....it does agree with the article. It just words it poorly. Down (DC 15): The animal breaks off from combat or otherwise backs down. An animal that doesn’t know this trick continues to fight until it must flee (due to injury, a fear effect, or the like) or its opponent is defeated. What the Down trick is designed to do is to allow the animal to break away from combat before it actually *needs to. In other words, it can break away before it is badly wounded, or upon command. But it still says that if it is badly wounded, it will break away.
SoulLord 11-30-05, 12:58 PM	@SauroGrenom Regarding scrolls there are minor, medium and major each capable of holding more spells minor up to 3 medium up to 4 major up to 6 In my reasoning you could use a major scroll and scribe only a single part leaving 5 parts to be later scribed on. what you can't do is fill a scroll with 6 spells and after one is used fill it up again with a new spell.
SauroGrenom 11-30-05, 01:00 PM	Yep that's what the SRD says, but the article says: Remember, if your animal doesn't know the "down" trick, it will flee from combat once it takes serious damage! This tells us that your animal companion will run when seriously wounded unless it is taught the down trick. That is different from what the SRD says about the down trick. The SRD says that the trick allows the animal the break off combat at any time. The article says that the trick allows the beast to attack even if badly wounded. Two very different things.
TelinArtho 11-30-05, 01:03 PM	@Soullord - I don't think that really "works" - after a scroll is read, the sheet of parchment/paper/whatever it was on is not "used up" - it is just blank. So, if you are able to have a long scroll (long enough for 6 spells) with only 1 spell on it and can scribe 5 more spells - this is mechanically the same as a scroll with 6 spells originally on it after 5 spells have been cast. In other words - it needs to be a consistent ruling - either it can be done (which is easiest to keep track of) or it can't be done (in which case, there's quite a few violations and there needs to be some way of tracking it).
SauroGrenom 11-30-05, 01:08 PM	@SauroGrenom Regarding scrolls there are minor, medium and major each capable of holding more spells minor up to 3 medium up to 4 major up to 6 In my reasoning you could use a major scroll and scribe only a single part leaving 5 parts to be later scribed on. what you can't do is fill a scroll with 6 spells and after one is used fill it up again with a new spell. A scroll is not a item of spell storing. You cannot just put more spells into it as they are used up. There are items of spell storing(rings, weapons), and a scroll is not one of them. When you make the item it is made. It is an expendible item, so it is slowly used up. If you want more uses you need to remake the item. Mabey the problem is that people are seperating the scroll(parchment) from the spell on the scroll. Yes spells can be used up and the remaining spell are still on a scroll. But you cannot scribe a piece of a scroll, like you cannot craft a half used wand or a potion where half of the durration is already passed before you imbibe the potion. Crafting feats allow you to craft whole items. The scroll when crafted is a whole item, though its uses can be expended in pieces.
TelinArtho 11-30-05, 01:12 PM	Here's the only thing I can find that seems to indicate either way - and it would seem to indicate that you scribe everything first and that's all you can do: All writing implements and materials used to scribe a scroll must be fresh and unused. A character must pay the full cost for scribing each spell scroll no matter how many times she previously has scribed the same spell. While a scroll with enough room for 6 spells, but only crafted with 1 has been "unused" for the other 5 - it still is not "fresh" - so it would seem that you cannot scribe new spells onto an existing scroll. In reality, this is going to be a difficult rule to enforce or to even verify - so I don't know how much this really gains us.
Mal-2 11-30-05, 01:14 PM	Yep that's what the SRD says, but the article says: SauroGrenom, you quoted that article, and titled it Rules of the Game, but that is not a Rules of the Game article. It's from a series called Tactics and Tips. This makes a difference to us, because Rules of the Game articles are canon and applicable to the CoCo. The rest of the articles on the Wizards web site are not. In this particular case, I don't think the article contradicts the SRD. Still, we shouldn't get into the habit of quoting articles from the web that aren't applicable here, as it will lead to confusion about which rules are in effect. Edit: I see what you mean. It does contradict the SRD. Given that, I would say we ignore the article since it doesn't apply to CoCo, and go by the SRD.
Mal-2 11-30-05, 01:22 PM	Is the list of Diplomacy Allies in the Rules thread exhaustive, or is there a formula that was used? In particular, why are white dragons the only dragons on the list?
TelinArtho 11-30-05, 01:24 PM	I don't know if the list is exhaustive necessarily - but it is the current list of allowed allies. Diplomacy allies are dictated by an intelligence of 3-6 - so that's why only some dragons and only some elementals are listed.
Macbrea 11-30-05, 01:26 PM	I noticed something kind of funny. So, if Gorak goes Rogue 1/Ranger 3/Psion 1/Fighter 1/Warrior 1/wizard 1 he gains no exp or gold from his fights. But does he still gain gold from donig skills?
TelinArtho 11-30-05, 01:29 PM	The penalty for multiclassing too much is only 20% - flat - it does not increase as you get more and more classes.
NiQil 11-30-05, 01:32 PM	The penalty for multiclassing too much is only 20% - flat - it does not increase as you get more and more classes. I believe that is incorrect. I believe the penalties are cumulative. Not sure if that info is in the SRD, however....someone with access to a PHB might wanna take a peak.
Luni 11-30-05, 02:10 PM	The penalty for multiclassing too much is only 20% - flat - it does not increase as you get more and more classes. Wrong. :) A favoured class does not count against the character for purposes of the -20% penalty to XP. In such cases, calculate the XP penalty as if the character did not have that class. For instance, Bergwin is an 11th level gnome character (a 9th level rouge/2nd level bard). He takes no penalty to his XP because he has only one nonfavoured class. Suppose he then attains 12th level and adds 1st level as a fighter to his classes, becoming a 9th level rogue/ 2nd level bard/ 1st level fighter. He then takes a -10& penalty on future XP he ears because his fighter level is so much lower than his rogue level. If he thereafter rose to 13th level and picked up a fourth class (by adding 1st level cleric for example), he would take a -40& XP penalty from then on. Yes, they do stack. Just ignore the double negatives though (-20% penalty is actually a 20% bonus.)
TelinArtho 11-30-05, 02:14 PM	I stand corrected - I don't have the 3.5 PHB, and I think (though I may be in error again) that it was 20% flat penalty in 3.0 (if I am wrong there it is only because it has never come up in a game I've been in).
Macbrea 11-30-05, 02:22 PM	Just ignore the double negatives though (-20% penalty is actually a 20% bonus.) Oh, come on! I should get -100% penalty for that combo. (+100% isn't that bad for a slightly broken build) :P
Macbrea 11-30-05, 02:25 PM	That's ok, after making Larktin I discovered the writing behind Attach(ex) ability might be poorly done. Attach (Ex) A dire weasel that hits with its bite attack latches onto the opponent’s body with its powerful jaws. An attached dire weasel loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and thus has an AC of 12. An attached dire weasel can be struck with a weapon or grappled itself. To remove an attached dire weasel through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against the creature. What exactly prevents the dire weasel from biting it's opponent and running to the other side of the arena? You would have to run it down and pin it to stop it from being attached! :D
Sindorin 11-30-05, 02:26 PM	What would your character do all day now that he can't earn experience points?!
Macbrea 11-30-05, 02:28 PM	Fight in league 8!
Scribelords 11-30-05, 04:44 PM	Stormwind's birthday has been added to the roster (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7048484&postcount=7). It's on December 1st, which is ... tommorrow! Remember to send in your Birthday and year to me, and received 2° on your Birthday. (Sorry, cake and balloons not included) An [early] Happy Birthday wishing to you, Stormwind! http://www.sebastian-sutor.de/smilies/troet.gif
SoulLord 11-30-05, 05:25 PM	Quick question regarding power rating and renown. for example Shakari (Luni) [Power: 2894 (1447); 9 won, 3 lost] [M:1] Shakari has a power of 2894 but a renown score of 1447... how is this number calculated?
SauroGrenom 11-30-05, 09:02 PM	Any more opinons or retort's involving the scroll issues I mentioned above?
Vathelokai 11-30-05, 11:34 PM	Quick question regarding power rating and renown. for example Shakari (Luni) [Power: 2894 (1447); 9 won, 3 lost] [M:1] Shakari has a power of 2894 but a renown score of 1447... how is this number calculated? The calculations are in the last post of the rules of gladius. The first number is multipleid by the ECL, and the second number is the actual power rating based on the fight record.
Vathelokai 11-30-05, 11:36 PM	That's ok, after making Larktin I discovered the writing behind Attach(ex) ability might be poorly done. What exactly prevents the dire weasel from biting it's opponent and running to the other side of the arena? You would have to run it down and pin it to stop it from being attached! :D If it's strong enough to pick up the opponent, I don't see why not :D
Vathelokai 11-30-05, 11:41 PM	Any more opinons or retort's involving the scroll issues I mentioned above? If you're right, Auburn is so in violation. She's been doing that since her first fight. But here is the loop hole: you sell things at half market price. you can make scrolls at half market price. I.E. you can sell scrolls for the exact ammount you paid to make them. So if you use 2/3rds of a scroll, after the fight you can sell off the remainder and then remake a scroll with all 5/5ths of the spells on it, with no price difference. However this does put a larger xp penalty on casters if we do it this way. (maybe ToK can use that for Maven :P ) Personaly, I'd like to allow people with scribe scroll to 'refil' a scroll. It makes the bookkeeping easier, and wizards can own 5 scrolls instead of 20. If 'refilling' is banned, then I would like a ruling on my use of prestidigitation to make my scrolls float around, thus bypassing the move action to draw scrolls every round.
Luni 11-30-05, 11:50 PM	If you're right, Auburn is so in violation. She's been doing that since her first fight. But here is the loop hole: you sell things at half market price. you can make scrolls at half market price. I.E. you can sell scrolls for the exact ammount you paid to make them. So if you use 2/3rds of a scroll, after the fight you can sell off the remainder and then remake a scroll with all 5/5ths of the spells on it, with no price difference. However this does put a larger xp penalty on casters if we do it this way. (maybe ToK can use that for Maven :P ) Personaly, I'd like to allow people with scribe scroll to 'refil' a scroll. It makes the bookkeeping easier, and wizards can own 5 scrolls instead of 20. If 'refilling' is banned, then I would like a ruling on my use of prestidigitation to make my scrolls float around, thus bypassing the move action to draw scrolls every round. I agree with Valthelokai. I don't think refilling scrolls and powerstones is a big deal. As for your prestidigitation, I was going to have Ashhûr make like a maniac and grab and stuff all those scrolls where Auburn wouldn't want to retrieve them. But I didn't see it as a spell memorized so I never bothered.
DTFarstar 11-30-05, 11:56 PM	I just saw the CoCo while browsing around and decided to check out LG, so since I'm probably going to start playing I figured I would drop a hello in here and get my name out there. Albeit in a TINY fashion. Darian Timiriel Farstar
SauroGrenom 12-01-05, 12:33 AM	I feel that it is an issue. If you buy scrolls/stones bundled, you get a tactical advantage. You should pay for that in some way. If you can scribe your own scrolls, then sure you can sell them at 1/2 market price and rescribe it whole for no loss in gp. This only costs you the crafting time and a few xp. I don't think we should let scroll scribers and especially those who cannot scribe scrolls or imprint powerstones get away with "renewing" these expendable magic items without the appropreat cost. Just because everyone's breaking the scroll/powerstone crafting rules doesn't make it OK. All expendible magic items are crafted whole, no exceptions. You cannot use half of a candle of evocation, then "renew" it by spending half the original cost. And you cannot use a chime of opening 5 times and craft back in the uses by spending half the crafting cost and xp. And you dont' use a bunch of cards from your deck of illusions and "renew" it by paying a fraction of the deck's original cost. Nobody is going to say that you can craft a wand with only 10 charges for a fraction of the cost and later go back and put the rest of the charges into the wand. If you want new items you have to buy them or craft them yourself. It's not realy an issue if several people have been using the crafting rules wrong or have been "renewing" their scrolls and powerstone incorrectly. All that realy matters is what is the correct way to do it by Core RAW. With rare and specific exceptions you cannot "renew" the powers of expendable magic items. It may be dificult to audit it, but if you know its wrong and your caught doing it you go to prison untill you can make it right. The closest we have come to a rule from the RAW is the quote from Tellin, and it indicates that this practice of "renewing" is not allowed. If there is nothing else that anyone can find that contradicts this secion of the SRD, then there is no need for a house rule or clarification. If the other auditors won't do it, I'll audit one caster each week and make sure to include this type of infraction in my examination. Sorry for the rant, but this has been wriggling under my skin for a while. Characters that are expendible heavy can easily use this practice to their advantage and making them nearly as effective as actual casters/manifesters. This practice enhances the effectiveness of the 1level dip into caster classes that are popular with the builds that go undefeated for so long. This is part of the reason that those builds are nearly unstopable. They illegally maintain a far more extensive inventory of powers accessable with a single move action than what they can realy afford.
Iced 12-01-05, 01:06 AM	I feel that it is an issue. If you buy scrolls/stones bundled, you get a tactical advantage. You should pay for that in some way. If you can scribe your own scrolls, then sure you can sell them at 1/2 market price and rescribe it whole for no loss in gp. This only costs you the crafting time and a few xp. I don't think we should let scroll scribers and especially those who cannot scribe scrolls or imprint powerstones get away with "renewing" these expendable magic items without the appropreat cost. Just because everyone's breaking the scroll/powerstone crafting rules doesn't make it OK. All expendible magic items are crafted whole, no exceptions. You cannot use half of a candle of evocation, then "renew" it by spending half the original cost. And you cannot use a chime of opening 5 times and craft back in the uses by spending half the crafting cost and xp. And you dont' use a bunch of cards from your deck of illusions and "renew" it by paying a fraction of the deck's original cost. Nobody is going to say that you can craft a wand with only 10 charges for a fraction of the cost and later go back and put the rest of the charges into the wand. If you want new items you have to buy them or craft them yourself. It's not realy an issue if several people have been using the crafting rules wrong or have been "renewing" their scrolls and powerstone incorrectly. All that realy matters is what is the correct way to do it by Core RAW. With rare and specific exceptions you cannot "renew" the powers of expendable magic items. It may be dificult to audit it, but if you know its wrong and your caught doing it you go to prison untill you can make it right. The closest we have come to a rule from the RAW is the quote from Tellin, and it indicates that this practice of "renewing" is not allowed. If there is nothing else that anyone can find that contradicts this secion of the SRD, then there is no need for a house rule or clarification. If the other auditors won't do it, I'll audit one caster each week and make sure to include this type of infraction in my examination. Sorry for the rant, but this has been wriggling under my skin for a while. Characters that are expendible heavy can easily use this practice to their advantage and making them nearly as effective as actual casters/manifesters. This practice enhances the effectiveness of the 1level dip into caster classes that are popular with the builds that go undefeated for so long. This is part of the reason that those builds are nearly unstopable. They illegally maintain a far more extensive inventory of powers accessable with a single move action than what they can realy afford. I have looked through the SRD and cannot find any passage where it requires a character to re-purchase an entire powerstone/scroll in order to replace an expended spell. Logically, you would be able to re-scribe a scroll on the blank parchement (Accepting the cost of ink etc.). Nowhere does it say "The parchement crumbles to dust", or "The scroll is consumed by fires after activation" it simply says that the writing "Vanishes". A scroll is a spell (or collection of spells) that has been stored in written form. A spell on a scroll can be used only once. The writing vanishes from the scroll when the spell is activated. Using a scroll is basically like casting a spell. The scroll is still there, just the scribed spell has been consumed by the casting. I find it difficult to believe it impossible to simply re-scribe the spell that was just there into the same place it once occupied. I also see no logical reason why you couldn't have a hired caster scribe the scroll back on for you. A scroll is not a wand, you arn't "re-charging" it. The item is expended. Why stop it from being replaced? Powerstones would also fall under this rule. Powerstone mechanics are almost identical to the scroll mechanics in every way. Why can't a manifester re-imprint a single expended power without tossing the whole stone and buying a new one? ~Iced
NiQil 12-01-05, 01:38 AM	I have looked through the SRD and cannot find any passage where it requires a character to re-purchase an entire powerstone/scroll in order to replace an expended spell. Logically, you would be able to re-scribe a scroll on the blank parchement (Accepting the cost of ink etc.). Nowhere does it say "The parchement crumbles to dust", or "The scroll is consumed by fires after activation" it simply says that the writing "Vanishes". The scroll is still there, just the scribed spell has been consumed by the casting. I find it difficult to believe it impossible to simply re-scribe the spell that was just there into the same place it once occupied. I also see no logical reason why you couldn't have a hired caster scribe the scroll back on for you. A scroll is not a wand, you arn't "re-charging" it. The item is expended. Why stop it from being replaced? Powerstones would also fall under this rule. Powerstone mechanics are almost identical to the scroll mechanics in every way. Why can't a manifester re-imprint a single expended power without tossing the whole stone and buying a new one? ~Iced I'm going to have to agree with Sauro on this one....for this reason (I believe this is the same thing Telin quoted) listed in the description of creating scrolls: All writing implements and materials used to scribe a scroll must be fresh and unused. And this one, on creating powerstones: All materials used to imprint a power stone must be fresh and unused. A scroll/powerstone that has multiple spells/powers on it that then has one of them used is no longer fresh and unused. Thus, it no longer meets the requirements of the materials needed to scribe a scroll or imprint a stone. It is no longer fresh, and is definitely no longer unused. By the RAW, Sauro is correct.
SauroGrenom 12-01-05, 01:47 AM	I have looked through the SRD and cannot find any passage where it requires a character to re-purchase an entire powerstone/scroll in order to replace an expended spell. Logically, you would be able to re-scribe a scroll on the blank parchement (Accepting the cost of ink etc.). Nowhere does it say "The parchement crumbles to dust", or "The scroll is consumed by fires after activation" it simply says that the writing "Vanishes". This is the relevant passage from the srd:All writing implements and materials used to scribe a scroll must be fresh and unused. A character must pay the full cost for scribing each spell scroll no matter how many times she previously has scribed the same spell.You can easily see that all materials must be unused. You cannot scribe on a scroll that is used. The scroll is still there, just the scribed spell has been consumed by the casting. I find it difficult to believe it impossible to simply re-scribe the spell that was just there into the same place it once occupied. I also see no logical reason why you couldn't have a hired caster scribe the scroll back on for you. A scroll is not a wand, you arn't "re-charging" it. The item is expended. Why stop it from being replaced? The item is the scroll not the spell on the scroll. You are not allowed to replace the spells independant of the item. Not with scrolls or any other expendible item that has single or multiple uses. There is nothing stopping you from replacing the scroll. But as I said before, the spell is not the item. The scroll is the item. The feat is "scribe scroll" not "scribe spell into slot on scroll". It allows you to make scrolls, not to edit scrolls. I don't know how to be more clear about it. If you want an item that stores spells and can be filled with whatever spell you want, buy a ring of spell storring. There are items that fulfill the role you want. They are more expensive than scrolls, but they are also cheaper to refill with spell casting services. Powerstones would also fall under this rule. Powerstone mechanics are almost identical to the scroll mechanics in every way. Why can't a manifester re-imprint a single expended power without tossing the whole stone and buying a new one? Agreed, stones would probably be identical to scrolls in this respect. ~Iced I hope that clears it up.
Usurpator 12-01-05, 04:08 AM	I am with Sauro and NiQil as well. It gives an advantage to those with the Scribe Scroll feat that are willing to spend a few XP. Saving a few move actions by not having to draw a scroll or powerstone can have a huge effect on combat.
KerlanRayne 12-01-05, 04:20 AM	Just to be devil's advocate how about this. The quotes say the materials used must be fresh and unused. The paper is not used to scribe a scroll, it IS the scroll, blank scroll that is. It's what you're scribing ON not what you are scribing WITH. The inks, quills, etc. bust be fresh because they are what is being used to scribe the scroll but the paper doesn't. Do you understand what I'm saying? Are you buying it? KerlanRayne
Pitlords 12-01-05, 06:00 AM	Monster Fights are now listed as Arena Fights. Miniquests are now listed under Quests. That means the [M] tag has vanished.
Pittbull 12-01-05, 06:49 AM	If Barthleby crafts a periapt of wisdom, he has to pay five credits. Does he have to pay five credits again, if he enhances it later to +3?
Vathelokai 12-01-05, 06:52 AM	As for your prestidigitation, I was going to have Ashhûr make like a maniac and grab and stuff all those scrolls where Auburn wouldn't want to retrieve them. But I didn't see it as a spell memorized so I never bothered. Forest gnomes get it as a spell-like ability. I considered not using it, since I figured you would sunder all my scrolls, but we figured, "what the heck."
Macbrea 12-01-05, 08:30 AM	Hey, does anyone happen to know what kind of action it is to drop caltrops in a square? Is it a free action to drop the caltrops but a move action to draw the weapon from it's container? And if it is can you use quickdraw to draw caltrops from your container and a free action to drop them every 5ft of movement?
SauroGrenom 12-01-05, 08:40 AM	Just to be devil's advocate how about this. The quotes say the materials used must be fresh and unused. The paper is not used to scribe a scroll, it IS the scroll, blank scroll that is. It's what you're scribing ON not what you are scribing WITH. The inks, quills, etc. bust be fresh because they are what is being used to scribe the scroll but the paper doesn't. Do you understand what I'm saying? Yes.Are you buying it? No. KerlanRayne The argument is so thin you can see through it. I'd like to see you try and write something without the thing you're writing on. You need to use a surface to write. Besides that, the feat is scribe scroll, not scribe spell. You cannot scribe a spell. It is not a possibility. The rules allow for the scribing of scrolls.
Dracazar 12-01-05, 08:56 AM	Hey, does anyone happen to know what kind of action it is to drop caltrops in a square? Is it a free action to drop the caltrops but a move action to draw the weapon from it's container? And if it is can you use quickdraw to draw caltrops from your container and a free action to drop them every 5ft of movement? Dropping an item in your space or into an adjacent square is a free action. The item must be held in one hand. Quickdraw: You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. Caltrops are not weapons. You can draw weapons as free action because they are really near your hands but: In most cases, moving or manipulating an item is a move action. This includes retrieving or putting away a stored item, picking up an item, moving a heavy object, and opening a door.
Mal-2 12-01-05, 09:13 AM	Dropping an item in your space or into an adjacent square is a free action. The item must be held in one hand. You don't just drop a single caltrop in a square though. You spread a 2-pound bag of caltrops throughout a square. You scatter caltrops on the ground in the hope that your enemies step on them or are at least forced to slow down to avoid them. One 2- pound bag of caltrops covers an area 5 feet square. The onlything I've seen that says how long this takes is in one of the 'Tips and Tactics' articles on the wizards web site, which says it's a standard action, but those articles are not part of the rules we use here.
Dracazar 12-01-05, 09:18 AM	A fresh ECL3 Druid how obtains his animal companion? Does he need a miniquest? or does he buy it? or just punt in on the sheet without doing nothing? Thanks
Huan 12-01-05, 09:20 AM	A fresh ECL3 Druid how obtains his animal companion? Does he need a miniquest? or does he buy it? or just punt in on the sheet without doing nothing? Thanks A fresh ECL3 Druid may automatically start with an animal companion.
Sindorin 12-01-05, 09:20 AM	You can start having already acquired your animal companion during character creation. If you ever want a new one then you would need to quest. Edit: Dammit Nick Edit: Dammit me for being too wordy.
TelinArtho 12-01-05, 09:35 AM	If Barthleby crafts a periapt of wisdom, he has to pay five credits. Does he have to pay five credits again, if he enhances it later to +3? You have to pay the credits again if you improve it to another non-standard item (check Kraegin as a for instance - he did exactly that (+1 to +3))
Dracazar 12-01-05, 09:38 AM	You can start having already acquired your animal companion during character creation. If you ever want a new one then you would need to quest. Edit: Dammit Nick Edit: Dammit me for being too wordy. Acquiring means that you must use golds? Example: Riding dog animal companion for 150gp, 300gp for elite one? Thanks
Macbrea 12-01-05, 10:07 AM	A druids animal companion uses the base animal statistics. You aren't able to get the elite statistics line for them.
Macbrea 12-01-05, 11:04 AM	Ok, in CoCo we are allowed to do a free action that takes one days time. My question is the Lyre of building does the labor for 100 skilled miners for 3 days per half hour of play. It can be used once per day. A skilled hireling makes 3sp/day. Would it be a correct assumption to that a character playing one would make as a free action per week 90 gps or if they wished to work all week just making cash 630 gps? Or should the lyre of building be banned from CoCo all together?
SauroGrenom 12-01-05, 11:13 AM	Actually the lyre makes way more money than that. You can work for 8 hours in a day. So the income is 100(workers)x3days/halfhour(what the lyre does in a half hour)x0.3gp/day(wages)x18halfhours/workday=1440gp/free action. That's nothing to scoff at. Infact it's so unbalancing that Cat will probably put a lid on it if someone tries to use it.
Mind Rogue 12-01-05, 11:40 AM	Actually, the Lyre can only be used for building once per week, but it can reinfoce buildings 1/day. Also, it doesn't say anything about the them being skilled laborers, and untrained laborers only make 1 sp/day, which cuts your price down by 3 to about 444 gp. Also, the game tends to assume that a workday is 8 hours, which is 16 half-hours, not 18, which makes for a slight decrease. Also, you can't stop, so you can't eat until you're done playing. Now, since you can only play the lyre 1/week, you can make a little less than 500 gp per week, and the lyre costs 13,000 gp, it will take you over 260 weeks to break even, assuming your math is correct (I'm not bothering to check it). This amounts to over 5 years, and I don't really consider that unbalancing. Oh, and you still have to be able to pass 7 consecutive DC 18 perform (strings) checks.
Caterane 12-01-05, 01:31 PM	@all: The "Propose your Mercenary" thread is finished. You can begin to post your Mercenary there. Only some will make it into the Merc Roster but those are worth 2°. As soon as we have a couple of acceptable Mercs, I will open the Mercenaries Guild.
Mal-2 12-01-05, 02:42 PM	What guidlines are there for gods in Living Gladius? Particularly, are there any restrictions on which Domains a Cleric can take, or what a god can have for a favored weapon (primarily important for the War domain)?
TelinArtho 12-01-05, 02:46 PM	Nope - no restrictions on the domains (well, except for ones that are diametrically opposed (so no Good/Evil domain, Chaos/Law domain gods). As to the war domain - no restrictions either - though bear in mind it provides a Martial Weapon Prof and Weapon Focus to that weapon - so no exotic weapons.
NiQil 12-01-05, 02:53 PM	Nope - no restrictions on the domains (well, except for ones that are diametrically opposed (so no Good/Evil domain, Chaos/Law domain gods). As to the war domain - no restrictions either - though bear in mind it provides a Martial Weapon Prof and Weapon Focus to that weapon - so no exotic weapons. Unless you are a dwarf or a gnome and want to use a dwarven waraxe, dwarven urgrosh or gnome hooked hammer, since those races treat those exotic weapons as martial ones.
Caterane 12-01-05, 03:00 PM	I just saw the CoCo while browsing around and decided to check out LG, so since I'm probably going to start playing I figured I would drop a hello in here and get my name out there. Albeit in a TINY fashion. Darian Timiriel Farstar Hi Darian! Please make a character. We'd love to see him fight. Welcome to the CoCo
TelinArtho 12-01-05, 03:03 PM	Unless you are a dwarf or a gnome and want to use a dwarven waraxe, dwarven urgrosh or gnome hooked hammer, since those races treat those exotic weapons as martial ones. Don't forget to include the Bastard Sword if you don't mind wielding it 2-handed only...
Macbrea 12-01-05, 03:40 PM	On the mercanaries' requirements we are suppose to list them as follows? Mercenary Requirements: Non-chaotic (+10 dip) No Clerics or Paladins (+8 dip) Ride skill 4 ranks (+3 dip) Meaning that a person needs to be non-chaotic unless they have +10 diplomacy, Not a cleric or paladin unless you have +8 diplomacy and have at least 4 ranks of Ride skill unless you have +3 diplomacy, correct? I wanted to make sure that is the fashion that we are doing it. Yes, I realize in order to even get a diplomacy check the person would need 5 ranks of diplomacy, but a second level character with a 6 chr could in theory have 5 ranks.
Altaris13 12-01-05, 04:03 PM	Go Warforged Titan! (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050930a)
Book5 12-01-05, 08:39 PM	Actually the lyre makes way more money than that. You can work for 8 hours in a day. So the income is 100(workers)x3days/halfhour(what the lyre does in a half hour)x0.3gp/day(wages)x18halfhours/workday=1440gp/free action. That's nothing to scoff at. Infact it's so unbalancing that Cat will probably put a lid on it if someone tries to use it. Seeing as how after a half a dozen emails to elders/pitlords - I was informed that "living gladius does not support hirelings aiding your profession check" the lid is already on there. You cannot spend a week off and "just make money" I would love that to be a creditory camp/quest kinda thing. Pay 2 credits and have access to profession hirelings... the problem being that you really cant fail to make more money than you invest. You can hire like 100 people for only 30g - each of those trained hirelings are potentially making you 20g apeice... (no taking ten to aid profession erm so ... ) you can see how this takes you out of the CoCo xp/gp equation rapidly .. can we say "asymptote(sp?)" Whats funny is that I have never gotten this to work in a table game either - the DMs always screw things up and have dragons burn down my factories!! .. or were just on the move too much to take a week off the "save the world" thing and "just make money." If that was an action you could (w/ credits) take for as a full week activity like crafting.. oooh [M] for merchant? What? You would get 0 xp (no challenge) and technically there would need to be some dice rolls for your allies since you cant take ten to aid profession, but of course you cant take ten on profession by RAW either.. Im just gonna end there with "its a sticky issue" and "no you cant" make money with the lyre that way... at least until the entire hireling issues are hammered into gladius.
Book5 12-01-05, 08:45 PM	I just saw the CoCo while browsing around and decided to check out LG, so since I'm probably going to start playing I figured I would drop a hello in here and get my name out there. Albeit in a TINY fashion. Darian Timiriel Farstar 'ello thinking of joining a guild? The EYE (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=520510) is open!
Caterane 12-01-05, 08:49 PM	@Mercenary builders: Mercenaries - like all allies - do not come with allies themselves unless it's a class ally (Exception: Planar Cohort/Thralls). See FAQ: Allies for more information on Allies of my Ally.
Warclone 12-01-05, 11:37 PM	Kaigan believes he can coup de grace with shocking grasp since you can crit with a touch attack as per this link (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/magicOverview.html). It is my belief that you can't coup de grace with anything other than a melee weapon, bow, or crossbow, as per this link (http://d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#coupdeGrace). Which one of us is right?
Sindorin 12-01-05, 11:50 PM	Kaigan is right. You can also crit with a ray, thus at point blank range you can CdG with it as well.
Tellish_of_Ket 12-02-05, 01:09 AM	You may CDG with shocking grasp and other such spells. Sin is also correct with the ray part. -ToK
Vathelokai 12-02-05, 05:56 AM	Kaigan believes he can coup de grace with shocking grasp since you can crit with a touch attack as per this link (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/magicOverview.html). It is my belief that you can't coup de grace with anything other than a melee weapon, bow, or crossbow, as per this link (http://d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#coupdeGrace). Which one of us is right? Here's why it works: All charged touch attack spells count as melee weapons. Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. However, the act of casting a spell does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack. Your opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.Therefore, a melee touch attack is an armed melee attack. I don't know about the ray thing; I think it was just extrapolated from this section. I'm sure there are Rules of the Game articles about it as well. *EDIT* Nope, can't find CDG covered in the Rules of the Game. Go figure.
Scribelords 12-02-05, 09:06 AM	Two more Birthdays have been added to the birthday roster (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7048484&postcount=7): Macbrea, born on November 14th, and SoulLord, born on December 25th. Wow, with him and Huan, that's two babies born on Christmas here in the COCO! (small world) If you have not already, send in your birthday and year to me, and get 2° on your Birthday (what's one more present, right?).
waywreth 12-02-05, 09:42 AM	Two questions please: True or False? Crawling tattoos of skate only affect creatures weighing 200 lbs or less (by CoCo house rule). True or False? Crawling tattoos cannot be Personal spells, so Vigor, Force Screen, and Biofeedback crawling tattoos are all illegal.
Mind Rogue 12-02-05, 09:58 AM	While I agree that you can cdg with a touch spell, such as Shocking Grasp, I disagree with being able to cdg with a ray. First off, it is a ranged weapon other than a bow or crossbow, specifically designated as the only ranged weapons allowable (although you can use darts and javelins as improvised melee weapons). Second off, you cannot hold the charge on a ray spell, and the cdg action is a separate full-round action from actually casting the spell.
Mal-2 12-02-05, 10:04 AM	Two questions please: True or False? Crawling tattoos of skate only affect creatures weighing 200 lbs or less (by CoCo house rule). True or False? Crawling tattoos cannot be Personal spells, so Vigor, Force Screen, and Biofeedback crawling tattoos are all illegal. Question 1: I think crawling tattoos of skate should be able to affect "Any willing target" per the SRD, but I have been told this is not true in CoCo. I also believe regular tattoos of skate should be allowed at the 25 gp (* CL * PL) cost, since "any willing target touched" is part of the target for the power. I've been told both of these things are CoCo house rules though. Question 2: per the SRD Crawling tattoos resemble standard psionic tattoos, but their effects are often harmful rather than beneficial. Like a psionic tattoo, a crawling tattoo can be scribed only with a power of no higher than 3rd level that targets one or more creatures. Exceptions are the body adjustment power, which can be scribed even though it affects only the manifester, and telepathy (compulsion) powers, which cannot be scribed at all. I'm pretty sure that excludes any personal powers from becoming crawling tattoos.
Macbrea 12-02-05, 10:05 AM	From Crawling Tattoo description .... Like a psionic tattoo, a crawling tattoo can be scribed only with a power of no higher than 3rd level that targets one or more creatures. Exceptions are the body adjustment power, .... All Tattoo's that target personal using the scribe tattoo feat may pay double cost in order to target wearer with personal effects as per the rules to creating custom tattoos. Crawling tattoos are Treat it as a Fine construct that has AC 18, 10 hit points, a hardness of 5, speed 30 feet, and a bonus on attack rolls equal to the wearer’s manifester level + his key ability modifier and therefore unable by the targeting rules to target another being with a personal power.
Warclone 12-02-05, 10:06 AM	Thanks for clarifications on CDG with spell. I will let him do it.
Vathelokai 12-02-05, 10:08 AM	Two questions please: True or False? Crawling tattoos of skate only affect creatures weighing 200 lbs or less (by CoCo house rule). Skate Psychoportation Level: Psion/wilder 1, psychic warrior 1 Display: Material and visual Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal or touch; see text Target: You or one willing creature or one unattended object (total weight up to 100 lb./level); see text Duration: 1 min./level (D) Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: Yes (harmless, object) Power Points: 1 You, another willing creature, or an unattended object can slide along solid ground as if on smooth ice. If you manifest skate on yourself or another creature, the subject of the power retains equilibrium by mental desire alone, allowing her to gracefully skate along the ground, turn, or stop suddenly as desired. The skater’s land speed increases by 15 feet. (This adjustment is treated as an enhancement bonus.) As with any effect that increases speed, this power affects the subject’s maximum jumping distance. The subject can skate up or down any incline or decline she could normally walk upon without mishap, though skating up an incline reduces the subject’s speed to normal, while skating down a decline increases her speed by an additional 15 feet. (This adjustment is treated as a circumstance bonus.) If you manifest skate on an object, treat the object as having only one-tenth of its normal weight for the purpose of dragging it along the ground.If there is a 200 lb. limit, then it contradicts the RAW. The grammer of the target line either means a)It's 100 lbs. per level for objects or b)It's 100/lv. for any target. If we want to go with B, then most of CoCo is in violation True or False? Crawling tattoos cannot be Personal spells, so Vigor, Force Screen, and Biofeedback crawling tattoos are all illegal. Crawling Tattoos: Crawling tattoos resemble standard psionic tattoos, but their effects are often harmful rather than beneficial. Like a psionic tattoo, a crawling tattoo can be scribed only with a power of no higher than 3rd level that targets one or more creatures. Exceptions are the body adjustment power, which can be scribed even though it affects only the manifester, and telepathy (compulsion) powers, which cannot be scribed at all. Powers that normally have an area affect only one target if scribed in a crawling tattoo. Powers with an experience point requirement cannot be scribed into a crawling tattoo. Otherwise, crawling tattoos are treated as psionic tattoos until they are activated by the wearer. The wearer of a crawling tattoo can tap the tattoo as a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity, mentally specifying a target (to which the wearer must have line of sight). Instead of manifesting its stored power, the tattoo animates, drops to the ground, and scuttles toward the target. The original wearer need no longer concentrate on the tattoo once animated. The animated tattoo moves toward its designated target in the same round when it is activated. Treat it as a Fine construct that has AC 18, 10 hit points, a hardness of 5, speed 30 feet, and a bonus on attack rolls equal to the wearer’s manifester level + his key ability modifier. Crawling tattoos, unlike true constructs, are subject to illusions, darkness, fog, and similar effects. Should the target be killed, teleport away, or otherwise absent itself before the animated tattoo reaches it, the wearer can reclaim the tattoo. If it is destroyed, a crawling tattoo shatters and evaporates. A crawling tattoo must enter the target’s square to attack and thus provokes attacks of opportunity as it passes through the target’s threatened area. The tattoo makes one touch attack per round thereafter until it strikes its target or is destroyed. On a successful attack, the power scribed in the crawling tattoo affects the target if the target fails the appropriate saving throw; however, powers that normally allow a Reflex saving throw automatically affect the touched target. Crawling tattoos can ferry beneficial powers as well as harmful ones, and a target can allow the tattoo’s touch attack to succeed if he or she desires. The confusion stems from the second line. Exceptions are the body adjustment power, which can be scribed even though it affects only the manifester, and telepathy (compulsion) powers, which cannot be scribed at all. It dosn't state what that is an exception to, and it seems lots of people assume that it implies a ban on personal powers. Technicly, it's just a tautology; there is no exception, you could make a tatoo of personal powers ordinarily, for double cost. *EDIT*Seems I'm in slow motion today. What Macbrea says makes sense; the crawling tatoo could only target itself with the personal power. Hmmm...
Mal-2 12-02-05, 10:17 AM	If there is a 200 lb. limit, then it contradicts the RAW. The grammer of the target line either means a)It's 100 lbs. per level for objects or b)It's 100/lv. for any target. If we want to go with B, then most of CoCo is in violation Sorry, you're right. I don't know why I had 200 lbs stuck in my head. I was told that the rule was that the non-personal version had to abide by the weight limit. I tried to link back to the previous tavern where I was told that, but I'm not sure the link worked. It's page 151 of Tavern III, near the bottom. Here's the post but I can't figure out how to link to the exact page in the thread so you can see the rest of the discussion.
waywreth 12-02-05, 10:46 AM	I've added a list of violations to the prison for the crawling tattoos on his gladiator, as well as sent a PM to him. I will hold off running the fight today, and hopefully give him a chance to respond. However, due to my schedule I'll have to run it tomorrow doing the best I can if I do not hear back. So far I am disallowing any crawling tattoos that are personal range only (vigor, force screen, etc) and am allowing him to use skate as it has no weight limit when used in the standard fashion. Offensive crawling tattoos are allowed and encouraged.
Cerebus13 12-02-05, 11:46 AM	Crawling tattoos are Treat it as a Fine construct that has AC 18, 10 hit points, a hardness of 5, speed 30 feet, and a bonus on attack rolls equal to the wearer’s manifester level + his key ability modifier and therefore unable by the targeting rules to target another being with a personal power.Uh, I still don't see why a Crawling Tattoo can't target a player with a Personal power from that quote. The line "wearer's manifester level + key ability modifier" simply means that players with a manifester level get tattoos that have an attack roll of more than +0.
Snommelp 12-02-05, 11:49 AM	Uh, I still don't see why a Crawling Tattoo can't target a player with a Personal power from that quote. The line "wearer's manifester level + key ability modifier" simply means that players with a manifester level get tattoos that have an attack roll of more than +0.You're focusing on the wrong part. If it's a creature, then the logic is that it can't target something else with a Personal range power.
TheMagister 12-02-05, 12:15 PM	Sdentch wakes up to find a letter carrier knocking at his her door and when answered, hands him her a note. Since we weren't properly introduced in our last battle from an accidental violation, Memorex hereby officially challenges Sdentch to a duel to the death, even though it may be an illusion. :D To accept this challenge, simply kill this messenger and with his blood, scribe "accepts chllg from Memorex" upon your header/title and the sign will be accepted. Yours Truly, Memorex. -ToK Sdentch takes the note from the messenger and slowly and haltingly reads it aloud. She then grabs the messenger (a rather cute little gnome male) by his large ear and hustles him to the Tavern before he can run away from his apparently pre-arranged doom. Once there, she holds the squirming little fellow against the "Post here!" wall and snags a chair with her free hand. The poor messenger squeals in terror as the chair rises up, up, up above his head. His large eyes grow wider and wider as the chair gathers momentum on its murderous downward arc. When the chair shatters against the wall (and not his gnomish head), Sdentch takes the remaining splinter and stakes the limp-with-relief gnome to the wall through his shirt with his feet dangling about a gnome's height off the floor. Between the shirt and the wall is the challenge note with Sdentch's scrawl across the back: OKaY GnOMe PAy SDENTCH BrOKe @Tellish - I won't have any credits until I can find the time to pitlord a match or two. TelinArtho paid Sdentch's way last time, and I'm already in the hole to him for a challenge match. TM
Cerebus13 12-02-05, 12:30 PM	You're focusing on the wrong part. If it's a creature, then the logic is that it can't target something else with a Personal range power.It's not targetting someone else with the power, the Tattoo is simply attacking a target.A crawling tattoo must enter the target’s square to attack and thus provokes attacks of opportunity as it passes through the target’s threatened area. The tattoo makes one touch attack per round thereafter until it strikes its target or is destroyed. On a successful attack, the power scribed in the crawling tattoo affects the target if the target fails the appropriate saving throw; however, powers that normally allow a Reflex saving throw automatically affect the touched target. Crawling tattoos can ferry beneficial powers as well as harmful ones, and a target can allow the tattoo’s touch attack to succeed if he or she desires.The Tattoo keeps poking at it intended target until it hits, and after a successful hit the power on the tattoo affects the target (with a saving throw if applicable). Whether the power is personal or targetted at this point is irrelevant, the Tattoo simply has to touch its target for the power to take effect.
NiQil 12-02-05, 12:38 PM	Ummm....it may just be me....but...since you can't target a personal power, how can a crawling tattoo target someone with a power that can't be targeted? Using your example, Cerebus....if the sequence happens as you describe....where the crawling tattoo keeps attacking until it's attack is successful...at that point the power would trigger. Since it is a personal power we are talking about, the power would affect the tattoo, since that is the "person" that the personal power is being triggered from. You can't transfer personal powers from one person to another, as far as I know.
Snommelp 12-02-05, 12:41 PM	It's not targetting someone else with the power, the Tattoo is simply attacking a target.The Tattoo keeps poking at it intended target until it hits, and after a successful hit the power on the tattoo affects the target (with a saving throw if applicable). Whether the power is personal or targetted at this point is irrelevant, the Tattoo simply has to touch its target for the power to take effect. I'm not saying I agree or disagree. I'm a Warrior build type of guy, not a psionics kind of guy. I was just pointing you to the relevent part of the argument. EDIT: @ Tellish: Sam challenges Maven :D
Cerebus13 12-02-05, 01:11 PM	Ummm....it may just be me....but...since you can't target a personal power, how can a crawling tattoo target someone with a power that can't be targeted? Using your example, Cerebus....if the sequence happens as you describe....where the crawling tattoo keeps attacking until it's attack is successful...at that point the power would trigger. Since it is a personal power we are talking about, the power would affect the tattoo, since that is the "person" that the personal power is being triggered from. You can't transfer personal powers from one person to another, as far as I know.Alright, this line of logic makes sense if you think of the Tattoo as being the manifester. However...what would be the point of them including a line in the description for Crawling Tattoos that says "Crawling tattoos can ferry beneficial powers as well as harmful ones" if they cannot carry and properly use personal powers? Most "beneficial" powers that exist are personal, there are only a few (Skate?) that specifically target another. Just seems a bit silly to me I guess. In any event this change will affect a LOT of players, because many use crawling tattoos to benefit themselves as well as their allies.
NiQil 12-02-05, 01:17 PM	Alright, this line of logic makes sense if you think of the Tattoo as being the manifester. However...what would be the point of them including a line in the description for Crawling Tattoos that says "Crawling tattoos can ferry beneficial powers as well as harmful ones" if they cannot carry and properly use personal powers? Most "beneficial" powers that exist are personal, there are only a few (Skate?) that specifically target another. Just seems a bit silly to me I guess. In any event this change will affect a LOT of players, because many use crawling tattoos to benefit themselves as well as their allies. IMO, I think the point of them including that line is so that, for the few powers that are eligible, it gives some flexibility to not *always have to have harmful effects in crawling tattoos. But, as stated in the description, the intent behind crawling tattoos is to carry harmful effects. I think that crawling tattoos were kinda meant to be the psionic equivalent to alchemical weapons like acid and fire and whatnot...again JMO. But yes....lots of people going to prison on this one, most likely....in fact...gives me something to do today at work LOL.
Macbrea 12-02-05, 01:31 PM	Here is an odd crawling tattoo for you that should confuse the rules. Crawling Tattoo of Empathic Transfer [ML 2] (300 gp) Bob taps tattoo and targets self with tattoo. Strickly by the rules it drops from Bob and becomes a Fine Construct (AC 18, 10 hit points, a hardness of 5, speed 30 feet, +3 melee touch attack) on the next round it attempts to touch Bob. If it succeeds Bob is healed 2d10 hps and the Tattoo takes half that damage and disappears. You will notice I choose +3 Melee because Manifester Level + His key Ability (wisdom) is always calculated on a universal magic item as minimum nessessary to make the item, ML 2 + Wis 12(+1). You are assuming they meant the person using the tattoo. What do you do if the person activating the tattoo isn't a Manifester?
NiQil 12-02-05, 01:39 PM	Here is an odd crawling tattoo for you that should confuse the rules. Crawling Tattoo of Empathic Transfer [ML 2] (300 gp) Bob taps tattoo and targets self with tattoo. Strickly by the rules it drops from Bob and becomes a Fine Construct (AC 18, 10 hit points, a hardness of 5, speed 30 feet, +3 melee touch attack) on the next round it attempts to touch Bob. If it succeeds Bob is healed 2d10 hps and the Tattoo takes half that damage and disappears. You will notice I choose +3 Melee because Manifester Level + His key Ability (wisdom) is always calculated on a universal magic item as minimum nessessary to make the item, ML 2 + Wis 12(+1). You are assuming they meant the person using the tattoo. What do you do if the person activating the tattoo isn't a Manifester? Actually, in my mind, that is an example of a beneficial power that can be put into a crawling tattoo no problem. In essence, you heal 2d10 hp, and the crawling tattoo takes the damage from the power. Heck....that's just as good as cure moderate wounds....and cheaper I believe. That is a very good example of what crawling tattoos are for, as far as beneficial powers are concerned.
Snommelp 12-02-05, 02:30 PM	How much of a weapon's price is doubled for large weapons? For example, a +1 dagger would normally cost 2,302 gp. Would a large +1 dagger cost: 2,304 gp (just base price doubled) 2,604 gp (base price and MW price doubled) 4,604 gp (all doubled) ?
Sindorin 12-02-05, 02:31 PM	The only thing that would double in terms of size would be the base price.
Vathelokai 12-02-05, 02:32 PM	How much of a weapon's price is doubled for large weapons? For example, a +1 dagger would normally cost 2,302 gp. Would a large +1 dagger cost: 2,304 gp (just base price doubled) 2,604 gp (base price and MW price doubled) 4,604 gp (all doubled) ? Just the base price. You add the MW and the enhancement to the base price.
Snommelp 12-02-05, 02:42 PM	Thanks, guys. You'll probably regret that answer when I bring out my EL 11 character that I'm currently building. :devil:
Vathelokai 12-02-05, 02:58 PM	Snommelp, you just reminded me of something... There was this one time, in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, where my mage thief (emphasis on thief) and his buddies bumped into a gray render. I tripped over it, and it got a supprise round, so we started combat with me in its mouth. And I got last initiative; so I had plenty of time to stare at my sheets amazing lack of ability to deal with the situation. In a last ditch effort, I threw a smoke stick down its gullet (my DM wasn't too keen on the rules). The DM figured, what the heck, give it a fort save. It rolled a 1, and since the house rule at the time was that all rolls could auto/fail, it spit me back up. Then we had the thing down in two rounds. That would never fly here, but It was a great escape.
Mal-2 12-02-05, 04:17 PM	I have a question about what I should do when I find something on someone's character sheet that I think is a violation. In particular, I found what I think is a problem with my opponent in this weeks fights. I posted my concerns on the Fight of the Week thread, to make sure that there was, in fact, a violation. Waywreth then posted the violation that I found to the prison. I know it's petty, but I feel like I've been denied the ability to gain 1/10th of a credit. I don't pitlord, so I have very few other chances to earn credits. On the other hand, I wasn't 100% sure that the problem I saw was a violation, and not me misunderstanding the rules. Should I have posted straight to the prison?
NiQil 12-02-05, 04:27 PM	I have a question about what I should do when I find something on someone's character sheet that I think is a violation. In particular, I found what I think is a problem with my opponent in this weeks fights. I posted my concerns on the Fight of the Week thread, to make sure that there was, in fact, a violation. Waywreth then posted the violation that I found to the prison. I know it's petty, but I feel like I've been denied the ability to gain 1/10th of a credit. I don't pitlord, so I have very few other chances to earn credits. On the other hand, I wasn't 100% sure that the problem I saw was a violation, and not me misunderstanding the rules. Should I have posted straight to the prison? I can understand the feeling....I had those for quite some time when I first started here. There is not really any right answer to your question. IMO, if you were unclear on whether it was a violation or not, then you did the right thing by trying to verify that first. Unfortunately, in this situation, someone happened to beat you to the punch. I've had it happen myself a few times. Violations are just kinda "as you see them, report them", so whomever gets it in first is gonna get the credit for it. Fortunately, if you wish to continue to report violations, you will be happy to know that there are few who do this on a regular basis. Myself and TelinArtho are the main ones. In fact, you will probably notice that I did like 10 new violations today LOL. I can't sit here and say you shouldn't have immediately posted it into the prison, because as I said it is first come first serve....but violations that are not violations don't count either....which is why I said that, IMO, you did the correct thing since you weren't sure.
TelinArtho 12-02-05, 04:27 PM	If you are sure it is a violation - yes go ahead and post it to the prison. If you are not sure - it is probably better to post it to the tavern than clog up the prison with the question (and it will generate a bunch of discussion around it). You missed out on 1/10th - but I wouldn't get in a heat about it - there's plenty of opportunities elsewhere. /d
Mal-2 12-02-05, 04:33 PM	You missed out on 1/10th - but I wouldn't get in a heat about it - there's plenty of opportunities elsewhere. Just to be clear, since it's sometimes hard to convey emotions in forum posts, I'm really not upset. I was just wondering if I should have done it differently.
waywreth 12-02-05, 04:40 PM	You can have the 1/10th of the credit. Feel free to send a link to Cat of this post. I just wanted to make sure it gets fixed so I post in the prison so it has a record of it.
SauroGrenom 12-02-05, 06:13 PM	Just to be clear, what follows is a quote from the srd and it includes my comments and analysis in blue. We should note that crawling tattoo's are manufactured with the craft universal item feat instead of the scribe tattoo feat. So actually they are universal items not psionic tattoo's and that may give them exemption from several of the CoCo house rules designed for normal psionic tattoo's. If you dissagree with this, look up the description of what the Craft Universal Items feat allows. It grants the ability to make things on the universal items list where Crawling Tattoo's are at. Look closely at the Scribe Tattoo feat, and you will see that it allows you to make psionic tattoo's which occupy their own place in the psionic items list. It does not say in the Scribe Tattoo feat anywhere that you can craft Crawling Tattoo's. Lastly I'm making these arguments, but have already submitted alternative tactics for Kracknol. So the tattoo's in question are not going to play any role in that battle, but if I'm right there never was a violation. Sorry NiQil if I turn out to be correct, it may be that all the work you put into finding several "violators" will be wrong. Crawling Tattoos: Crawling tattoos resemble standard psionic tattoos, but their effects are often harmful rather than beneficial. Like a psionic tattoo, a crawling tattoo can be scribed only with a power of no higher than 3rd level that targets one or more creatures. By looking in the list of powers that are 3rd level or less I noticed that many powers do not have a "Target" entry. Such as Concealing Amorphia or Control Air, Control Flame or many other powers that simply create an effect. It is my belief that these powers are excluded from being made into crawling tattoo's. All other powers that have a "Target" entry are permitted in my opinion, including those that have a target of personal or you. Exceptions are the body adjustment power, which can be scribed even though it affects only the manifester, and telepathy (compulsion) powers, which cannot be scribed at all. So we have a prohibition, and an exception. As mentioned before by Vath this is a tautology. So it does not realy tell us that there is a prohibition from putting powers into a crawling tattoo that typically effect only the manifester only that we are prohibited from using telepathy (compulsion) powers. We are not told that a power must target someone other than the manifester. We are told that is must target an object or creeature. Most powers do that, but some do not. Powers that normally have an area affect only one target if scribed in a crawling tattoo. Powers with an experience point requirement cannot be scribed into a crawling tattoo. Another prohibition. Otherwise, crawling tattoos are treated as psionic tattoos until they are activated by the wearer. This just tells us how you can move them from person to person and how many you can carry. The wearer of a crawling tattoo can tap the tattoo as a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity, mentally specifying a target (to which the wearer must have line of sight). Instead of manifesting its stored power OK so this part was critical. The crawling tattoo never manifests its stored power. So we cannot think of the effect it has as being a manifestation of a psionic power. The item simply has an effect determined by what power is stored in it. Remember it is not manifesting a power it is having an effect determined by the power, so the rules of manifestation do not realy apply. , the tattoo animates, drops to the ground, and scuttles toward the target. The original wearer need no longer concentrate on the tattoo once animated. The animated tattoo moves toward its designated target in the same round when it is activated. Treat it as a Fine construct that has AC 18, 10 hit points, a hardness of 5, speed 30 feet, and a bonus on attack rolls equal to the wearer’s manifester level + his key ability modifier. Crawling tattoos, unlike true constructs, are subject to illusions, darkness, fog, and similar effects. Should the target be killed, teleport away, or otherwise absent itself before the animated tattoo reaches it, the wearer can reclaim the tattoo. If it is destroyed, a crawling tattoo shatters and evaporates. A crawling tattoo must enter the target’s square to attack and thus provokes attacks of opportunity as it passes through the target’s threatened area. The tattoo makes one touch attack per round thereafter until it strikes its target or is destroyed. On a successful attack, the power scribed in the crawling tattoo affects the target Notice how we are not saying that the crawling tattoo manifests the power. Instead we are saying that its power effects the target. Subtle but critical difference between these two things. if the target fails the appropriate saving throw; however, powers that normally allow a Reflex saving throw automatically affect the touched target. Crawling tattoos can ferry notice here that the tattoo is not manifesting a power. Instead it is transporting the effect of a power over to a distant location. beneficial powers as well as harmful ones, and a target can allow the tattoo’s touch attack to succeed if he or she desires. The language here is kind of muddy, but if we look at what is given at face value then we see that realy there is nothing wrong with making crawling tattoo's of powers with a range of personal. If you are having trouble with that please read the following from the rules on creating potions: The imbiber of the potion is both the caster and the target. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions. The prohibition against making potions that have a range of personal must be explicitly stated. Implicit in the first sentence is that the spell a potion's effect is based on must have a target as well. That is not sufficient to prohibit spells with a range of personal. An explicit prohibition must also be stated. We cannot assume that such a prohibition exists for crawling tattoo's. Crawling tattoo's of Vigor, and any other power with a range of personal are all fair game. @Cat, Since there is a loophole in the CoCo rules about psionic tattoo's perhaps it should be addressed or atleast clarified in the marketplace section of the rules. Else I could buy a crawling tattoo of Vigor augmented at ML19 for 50gp and gain crazy 95 hp.
Usurpator 12-02-05, 06:27 PM	@SauroGrenom Your line of reasoning about Psionic tattoos leads them to affect illegal targets (since they are not 'manifesting' and can apparently ignore the target entry the way you write it), or do you mean to say that crawling tattoo's can be scribed with 'personal' range spells and then only be effectively used by their creators? Reading literally, even if you can create them, personal tattoos will only affect the target 'you', which refers to the creator, and will fizzle because of illegal targeting in any other case. I don't think we need to read that literally, since psionic tattoos were never intended to carry spell with a range of 'personal' IMO. But if you are going to read literally, read it all the way... Thus there is no need to fix loopholes.
SauroGrenom 12-02-05, 06:39 PM	@SauroGrenom Your line of reasoning about Psionic tattoos leads them to affect illegal targets (since they are not 'manifesting' and can apparently ignore the target entry the way you write it), or do you mean to say that crawling tattoo's can be scribed with 'personal' range spells and then only be effectively used by their creators? Reading literally, even if you can create them, personal tattoos will only affect the target 'you', which refers to the creator, and will fizzle because of illegal targeting in any other case. I don't think we need to read that literally, since psionic tattoos were never intended to carry spell with a range of 'personal' IMO. But if you are going to read literally, read it all the way... Thus there is no need to fix loopholes. If you read the section for crafting psionic tattoo's there is a specific passage that states that tattoo's with a range of personal are allowed, but cost twice as much. If they were never intended to be able to hold the effects of personal powers, then why would that passage exist. Clearly a psionic tattoo of force screen is possable, and if so why not a crawling tattoo of force screen. The crawling tattoo simple effects the "target" of the tattoo with the effect of the power stored. End of story. The crawling tattoo extends the ability of a normal psionic tattoo so that the target need not be the person "using" the tattoo. Instead you can "target" your tattoo to effect another. Crawling tattoo's are not ignoring the target entry, rather they have an effect as if all stored powers were range touch and as if all targets were a single creature or item. That is all.
Usurpator 12-02-05, 06:55 PM	If you read the section for crafting psionic tattoo's there is a specific passage that states that tattoo's with a range of personal are allowed, but cost twice as much. If they were never intended to be able to hold the effects of personal powers, then why would that passage exist. Clearly a psionic tattoo of force screen is possable, and if so why not a crawling tattoo of force screen. The crawling tattoo simple effects the "target" of the tattoo with the effect of the power stored. End of story. The crawling tattoo extends the ability of a normal psionic tattoo so that the target need not be the person "using" the tattoo. Instead you can "target" your tattoo to effect another. Crawling tattoo's are not ignoring the target entry, rather they have an effect as if all stored powers were range touch and as if all targets were a single creature or item. That is all. I am talking about crawling tattoo's, not regular tattoos. Regular tattoos are allowed explicitily (as you said). Crawling tattoos have no such passage. You also mentioned that crawling tattoos should be treated as a wholly different category, because they are made with Craft Universal Item. Thus according to yourself there is no 'extending' of psionic tattoos rules unless mentioned explicitily. You can read in the rules what you want to read. I just don't think it is the intention to store personal powers in crawling tattoo's, because that's what regular tattoo's are for. Using crawling tattoo's to achieve the same effect for a cheaper price is just circumventing what regular tattoos are intended for. Crawling tattoos are intended for delivering attack spells. To me the passage concerning body adjustment is specifically made because that is the only tattoo with a personal range that can be made crawling. Why else would they feel the need to include this passage?
NiQil 12-02-05, 07:06 PM	@ Sauro Suppose what you say is correct. Answer me this then. You want to put powers with a range of personal into a crawling tattoo, yes? Let's look at the definition of a range of personal. Personal: The power affects only you. Now, given that very closed-ended definition, can you kindly tell me how a power that has a range of personal can even be made into a crawling tattoo, who's entire design is to affect parties other than yourself? It seems to me that the RAW, though poorly worded, does speak for itself. A range of personal can't be put into a crawling tattoo. This is both the RAW and the RAI. As Usurpator said, putting personal range powers into crawling tattoos just to circumvent the double cost rule is very poor form, and tastes very much of munchkinism (and no, I'm not saying you are one....just describing the impression this all gives me LOL).
lonewolf 12-02-05, 07:11 PM	a completely different question: If someone has a weapon with the Dislocatior Psionic Weapon Special Ability and teleports his enemy out of the arena the enemy loses after 10 rounds, right?
lonewolf 12-02-05, 07:26 PM	and another unrelated question: Augmented Powerstones/Tattoos: For every two manifester levels above the minimum, the power level increases by one. This directly affects the pricing of such items. It only applies to augmented stones and tattoos. Unaugmented ones use the normal formula. Example (augmented): VigorA [ML 5] = 25*5*3 = 375 gp [+25 hp] Example (unaugmented): Vigor [ML 5] = 25*5*1 = 125 gp [+5 hp] I just wanna check to be sure: This is NOT applicable for Dorjes, right?
Ribking 12-02-05, 08:20 PM	Is it wrong to design a Merc that explicitly compliments your character? As far as I know, submissions for Mercs will be reviewed before even being added to the list right? Do you think is would lessen a Merc's chance at being approved?
Book5 12-02-05, 10:13 PM	If a halfling wanted to use a normally 2handed weapon (umm galive) at its full medium size (for the damage bonus say.. ) can he do that? That takes the size category above the "2handed" size. A one handed medium weapon is a 2handed small weapon. A one handed small weapon is a light medium weapon, but a 2handed medium weapon cannot be weilded by small creature. Correct?
TelinArtho 12-02-05, 10:21 PM	I answered this in the fights thread - if it is 2-handed for a normal sized weapon for your size, then 1 size bigger is "unwieldable".
Book5 12-02-05, 11:01 PM	I answered this in the fights thread - if it is 2-handed for a normal sized weapon for your size, then 1 size bigger is "unwieldable". thanks telin!
Warclone 12-02-05, 11:58 PM	I just finished pitlording an EXTREMELY close and exciting fight between Eiletha Surion (Kaigan) and Lunoria Evershine (Luni)! I feel I narrated it well. Please let me know what you think of it!
Iced 12-03-05, 02:49 AM	Can dissolving touch be used in conjunction with the touch attack at the start of a grapple? Originally Posted by SRD Dissolving Touch Psychometabolism [Acid] Level: Psychic warrior 2 Display: Visual Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Creature or object touched Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: No Power Points: 3 Your touch, claw, or bite is corrosive, and sizzling moisture visibly oozes from your natural weapon or hand. You deal 4d6 points of acid damage to any creature or object you touch with your successful melee touch attack. Acid you secrete denatures 1 round after use, losing all efficacy and ability to deal damage. You are immune to your own acid. Augment: For every 2 additional power points you spend, this power’s damage increases by 1d6 points. Also with skills, how many skill points are you allowed to buy in a specific skill per level? For example, I have a third level character without the hide skill. I add a level of rogue. My max skill ranks for my character level is now Can I spend seven of my rogue skill points to buy the seven ranks and bring my skill up to par with a straight rogue of my level? If I buy spiked gauntlets, can I choose to drop them as a weapon (free action) or will I have to use their damage values for my unarmed strikes the remainder of the battle?
Usurpator 12-03-05, 03:28 AM	I just wanna check to be sure: This is NOT applicable for Dorjes, right? It is also applicable to Dorjes, otherwise we would see some +25 Vigor Dorjes soon enough...
Usurpator 12-03-05, 03:31 AM	Can dissolving touch be used in conjunction with the touch attack at the start of a grapple? Yes. The Dissolving Touch triggers as soon as you make a succesfull melee touch attack against your opponent with your unarmed strike. It doesn't matter of you grapple, trip or plainly touch your opponent.
Ravashack 12-03-05, 03:33 AM	Something I was just wondering about... Do the mercenaries gain levels as well?
Vathelokai 12-03-05, 03:44 AM	Is it wrong to design a Merc that explicitly compliments your character? As far as I know, submissions for Mercs will be reviewed before even being added to the list right? Do you think is would lessen a Merc's chance at being approved? Since they're being reviewed, then it's completely fair. I'm sure if He compliments your char. well, then the merc would most likely compliment similar characters. I don't think it would hurt their approval chances.
Vathelokai 12-03-05, 04:16 AM	I just finished pitlording an EXTREMELY close and exciting fight between Eiletha Surion (Kaigan) and Lunoria Evershine (Luni)! I feel I narrated it well. Please let me know what you think of it! "Wait, wait, wait.... Your telling me there was an actual fight in the arena? Well, I'll be..."
Vathelokai 12-03-05, 04:24 AM	@ Sauro Now, given that very closed-ended definition, can you kindly tell me how a power that has a range of personal can even be made into a crawling tattoo, who's entire design is to affect parties other than yourself? Crawling Tattoos: Crawling tattoos resemble standard psionic tattoos, but their effects are often harmful rather than beneficial. Like a psionic tattoo, a crawling tattoo can be scribed only with a power of no higher than 3rd level that targets one or more creatures. Exceptions are the body adjustment power, which can be scribed even though it affects only the manifester, and telepathy (compulsion) powers, which cannot be scribed at all Powers that normally have an area affect only one target if scribed in a crawling tattoo. Powers with an experience point requirement cannot be scribed into a crawling tattoo. Otherwise, crawling tattoos are treated as psionic tattoos until they are activated by the wearer. Now the question is, do we want to assume... a)The exception for body adjustment implies a ban on all personal crawling tatoos except body adjustment? b) The 'otherwise like regular tatoos' line means that personal powers cost double? Obviously it's badly worded, like lots of the psionics rules. Personaly, I think that the stated rule (treat as psionic tatoo) over-rules the implied rule (exception for body adjustment). Stated=RAW, Implied=RAI. And since Rules As Intended has come up, I'll put in my two coppers; I think the intention was that 'crawling' is a different way of transfering tatoos, like when you command the tatoo to slide onto another person. In my mind, the tatoo is sliding onto the opponent, then activating, pretending that it was activated by the opponent. Obviously, the rules don't back up this idea, but that's how I imagine it.
Usurpator 12-03-05, 04:38 AM	Let me put it like this: A. a crawling tattoo can be scribed only with a power of no higher than 3rd level that targets one or more creatures. B. Exceptions are the body adjustment power, which can be scribed even though it affects only the manifester C. Otherwise, crawling tattoos are treated as psionic tattoos until they are activated by the wearer. Point A. defines the rule. Target: 'one or more creatures' does not include Target: 'you', both are wholly separate target entries and one does not include the other. Point B. is an exception to point A. It clearly makes a power that doesn't have a Target: 'one or more creatures' still eligible for crawling tattoos. Point C. defines additional rules insofar not defined by previous points, such as A. and B.
NiQil 12-03-05, 04:40 AM	Crawling Tattoos: Crawling tattoos resemble standard psionic tattoos, but their effects are often harmful rather than beneficial. Like a psionic tattoo, a crawling tattoo can be scribed only with a power of no higher than 3rd level that targets one or more creatures. Exceptions are the body adjustment power, which can be scribed even though it affects only the manifester, and telepathy (compulsion) powers, which cannot be scribed at all Powers that normally have an area affect only one target if scribed in a crawling tattoo. Powers with an experience point requirement cannot be scribed into a crawling tattoo. Otherwise, crawling tattoos are treated as psionic tattoos until they are activated by the wearer. Now the question is, do we want to assume... a)The exception for body adjustment implies a ban on all personal crawling tatoos except body adjustment? b) The 'otherwise like regular tatoos' line means that personal powers cost double? Obviously it's badly worded, like lots of the psionics rules. Personaly, I think that the stated rule (treat as psionic tatoo) over-rules the implied rule (exception for body adjustment). Stated=RAW, Implied=RAI. And since Rules As Intended has come up, I'll put in my two coppers; I think the intention was that 'crawling' is a different way of transfering tatoos, like when you command the tatoo to slide onto another person. In my mind, the tatoo is sliding onto the opponent, then activating, pretending that it was activated by the opponent. Obviously, the rules don't back up this idea, but that's how I imagine it. That still didn't answer my question. How can you put a power with a range of personal (which cannot be targeted) into a tattoo that is specifically designed to target someone/something in order to deploy said power?
Vathelokai 12-03-05, 05:07 AM	Like a psionic tattoo, a crawling tattoo can be scribed only with a power of no higher than 3rd level that targets one or more creatures.I see your point. I believe that in my mind the "like a psionic tattoo" start of the sentence implied that it's targeting was set up like a regular tatoo, i.e. it could be personal for a price. Now in english "targets one or more" can include targeting yourself, but in D&D it seems to mean otherwise. Hmmm... I'll have to think for a bit.
lonewolf 12-03-05, 05:34 AM	It is also applicable to Dorjes, otherwise we would see some +25 Vigor Dorjes soon enough... Thats pretty weak reasoning till now. Can I get a ruling from an Elder or Caterane on this?
Usurpator 12-03-05, 06:03 AM	Thats pretty weak reasoning till now. Can I get a ruling from an Elder or Caterane on this? There is no need to, all the rules are there in the SRD: Dorjes are normally created at the minimum manifester level required to manifest the power, and powers that can be augmented are not augmented when stored in a dorje. A dorje’s wielder cannot augment the power contained within the dorje. However, dorjes can be created at a higher manifester level than required to manifest the power. In this case, the dorje that holds an augmentable power is augmented, to the limit of the manifester level and the power’s augmentation maximums, if any. The manifester level of a dorje cannot be more than five higher than the minimum manifester level to use the power it contains. Did you not read the section about Dorjes? That's pretty weak research till now.
lonewolf 12-03-05, 07:37 AM	Of course I read that section. But it says nowhere that if you want to improve the manifesterlevel and thus augment a power in a Dorje that the spell inside counts as having a higher level for the purpose of calculating the costs of the Dorje. What your quoted sectino says is that you CAN build Dorjes with augmented powers and that there are limits for that augmentation.
Usurpator 12-03-05, 08:13 AM	Of course I read that section. But it says nowhere that if you want to improve the manifesterlevel and thus augment a power in a Dorje that the spell inside counts as having a higher level for the purpose of calculating the costs of the Dorje. What your quoted sectino says is that you CAN build Dorjes with augmented powers and that there are limits for that augmentation. I understand. What I know is that cost of Dorjes is mainfester level * power level * 750. The Dorjes section says that a Dorje's manifester level can be higher than the minimum if you want it to contain augmented powers. Furthermore, if more power points are spent on a power, the power level rises to match the power points spent. Are you of the opinion that the Dorje itself can have manifester lvl 5 (for example) while the powers it contains have a manifester level of 1? Because that is what you seem to be questioning. Unless specifically stated otherwise an item's manifester/caster level counts for all powers/spells it contains (and for all types of calculations, power resistance, aura strength, creation costs etc.). An Dorje of Vigor, augmented for 4 points would need manifester level 5, and the Vigor cast from it has manifester level 5 as well, giving you +25 hit points for 5 minutes. It's price would be 5 * 3 * 750 or 11,250 gp. I think it's all there in the rules.
lonewolf 12-03-05, 08:44 AM	I understand. What I know is that cost of Dorjes is mainfester level * power level * 750. The Dorjes section says that a Dorje's manifester level can be higher than the minimum if you want it to contain augmented powers. agreed on that Furthermore, if more power points are spent on a power, the power level rises to match the power points spent. That is the point Im questioning and im pretty sure RAW backs me up. Only because the power is augmented its power level doesnt rise. Nowhere in the rules is anything written about that. I know that this is quite the same as with Tatoos/powerstones and there is a houserule in the CoCo that the powerlevel DOES rise if you have an augmented version, but dorjes are not mentioned, just Stones and Tatoos. Are you of the opinion that the Dorje itself can have manifester lvl 5 (for example) while the powers it contains have a manifester level of 1? Because that is what you seem to be questioning. no Unless specifically stated otherwise an item's manifester/caster level counts for all powers/spells it contains (and for all types of calculations, power resistance, aura strength, creation costs etc.). An Dorje of Vigor, augmented for 4 points would need manifester level 5, and the Vigor cast from it has manifester level 5 as well, giving you +25 hit points for 5 minutes. It's price would be 5 * 3 * 750 or 11,250 gp. I think it's all there in the rules. Without a houserule, the *3 in your calculation should be a *1, but otherwise I agree with you. The real question is if the CoCo community WANTS to extend their houserule on Powerstones and Tatoos on Dorjes or not.
Usurpator 12-03-05, 08:56 AM	The real question is if the CoCo community WANTS to extend their houserule on Powerstones and Tatoos on Dorjes or not. Now I understand your real question, and while I think it should be extended, this is ultimately not for me to answer....
lonewolf 12-03-05, 09:16 AM	Now I understand your real question, and while I think it should be extended, this is ultimately not for me to answer.... Thats why I asked for an Elder/GM decision before. I didnt meant to be offensive.
SauroGrenom 12-03-05, 09:54 AM	Thats pretty weak reasoning till now. Can I get a ruling from an Elder or Caterane on this? Dorje's do not increase in power level as the ML increases. This is so because there is no CoCo rule that says it does, and because Dorje's are very simular to (though subtly different from) wands. Wands do not increase in spell level as the caster increases. We can see on the wand list that increased caster level increases the price of the wand, but not the spell level. There are limits on how high you can augment a power. That is the only limit. You pay the increased price for higher ML but not higher PL.
lonewolf 12-03-05, 10:02 AM	Dorje's do not increase in power level as the ML increases. This is so because there is no CoCo rule that says it does, and because Dorje's are very simular to (though subtly different from) wands. Wands do not increase in spell level as the caster increases. We can see on the wand list that increased caster level increases the price of the wand, but not the spell level. There are limits on how high you can augment a power. That is the only limit. You pay the increased price for higher ML but not higher PL. I basically agree. But using the same logic, a scroll of Magic Missile with CL3 should cost 150gp since scrolls are very similar to stones and there is a houserule that increases the price of stones with increased ML.
SauroGrenom 12-03-05, 10:13 AM	Crawling Tattoos: Crawling tattoos resemble standard psionic tattoos, but their effects are often harmful rather than beneficial. Like a psionic tattoo, a crawling tattoo can be scribed only with a power of no higher than 3rd level that targets one or more creatures. Exceptions are the body adjustment power, which can be scribed even though it affects only the manifester, and telepathy (compulsion) powers, which cannot be scribed at all Powers that normally have an area affect only one target if scribed in a crawling tattoo. Powers with an experience point requirement cannot be scribed into a crawling tattoo. Otherwise, crawling tattoos are treated as psionic tattoos until they are activated by the wearer. Now the question is, do we want to assume... a)The exception for body adjustment implies a ban on all personal crawling tatoos except body adjustment? b) The 'otherwise like regular tatoos' line means that personal powers cost double? Obviously it's badly worded, like lots of the psionics rules. Personaly, I think that the stated rule (treat as psionic tatoo) over-rules the implied rule (exception for body adjustment). Stated=RAW, Implied=RAI. And since Rules As Intended has come up, I'll put in my two coppers; I think the intention was that 'crawling' is a different way of transfering tatoos, like when you command the tatoo to slide onto another person. In my mind, the tatoo is sliding onto the opponent, then activating, pretending that it was activated by the opponent. Obviously, the rules don't back up this idea, but that's how I imagine it. Vath has described the various options for interpretation very will, and better than I did. Well I was realy just spouting my opinion of the way to interpret this section of the ruels, and not summarizing the options. Thanks Vath. :tiphat: I will try to do this in the future whan arguments break out. I dissagree slightly with your list of options. I think there should be a : c) Any power with a "Target:" entry that is not a telepathy (compulsion) and does not have an xp cost can be crafted into a crawling tattoo at the same base cost. I generally agree with your analysis, and I think of it this way: Potions change all spells into effects with a range of personal and target of you. We have a specific rule that prohibits potions that are derived from spells that were already range personal. Psionic tattoo's change all powers into a range of personal and target of you. We have a specific rule that increases the cost of tattoo's that hold an effect derived from a power with an original range of personal. Crawling tattoo's change powers to a range of touch and target of one creature or item. We have specific rules that prohibit any power that costs xp or is a telepathy(compulsion) power. In the case of Crawling Tattoo's we have rules, so we should use them. Not try to invent ways for rules governing other times to apply to crawling tattoo's. To do that both violates the RAW and complicates our lives with no valuable gain.
SauroGrenom 12-03-05, 10:16 AM	I basically agree. But using the same logic, a scroll of Magic Missile with CL3 should cost 150gp since scrolls are very similar to stones and there is a houserule that increases the price of stones with increased ML. Take the house rules as they are, and don't try to invent more. There is a reason for the house rule. Psionic powers can be augmented without limit. Most spells have some kind of limit on how high the level dependant variables increase. Fireball only goes up to 10d6, but mindthrust can go up to 20d10. The increased scalability of psionic powers is the reason for the CoCo house rule.
TheMagister 12-03-05, 10:18 AM	Dorje's do not increase in power level as the ML increases. This is so because there is no CoCo rule that says it does, and because Dorje's are very simular to (though subtly different from) wands. Wands do not increase in spell level as the caster increases. We can see on the wand list that increased caster level increases the price of the wand, but not the spell level. There are limits on how high you can augment a power. That is the only limit. You pay the increased price for higher ML but not higher PL. That makes no sense "as is" to me, mechanically. I mean, meta-magic feats are basically "augmentations" to a given spell, in that they raise the level of the spell to cause more damage, have a greater effect, bigger AoE, etc. An empowered wand of Magic Missiles would have a caster level of 5 and a spell level of 3. I guess the difference is that most damage dealing spells scale with level for free (ex. fireball - 1d6 per CL, max 10d6) while a lot of the powers I have seen require greater expenditure of PP to augment them and get more damage out of them. It seems to me that the houserule that the CoCo has that augmentation be treated with the same mechanic that adding a meta-magic power to a spell for purposes of determining cost is fair. It only makes sense. IMHO! TM
SauroGrenom 12-03-05, 10:41 AM	I am talking about crawling tattoo's, not regular tattoos. Regular tattoos are allowed explicitily (as you said). Crawling tattoos have no such passage. You also mentioned that crawling tattoos should be treated as a wholly different category, because they are made with Craft Universal Item. Thus according to yourself there is no 'extending' of psionic tattoos rules unless mentioned explicitily. You can read in the rules what you want to read. I just don't think it is the intention to store personal powers in crawling tattoo's, because that's what regular tattoo's are for. Using crawling tattoo's to achieve the same effect for a cheaper price is just circumventing what regular tattoos are intended for. Crawling tattoos are intended for delivering attack spells. To me the passage concerning body adjustment is specifically made because that is the only tattoo with a personal range that can be made crawling. Why else would they feel the need to include this passage? So basically you are saying that you don't think that the rules were intended to allow crawling tattoo's with a range of personal. Respectfully, that means diddly. Your opinion is not what the CoCo rules are based on. So far I feel that I have made a case that says that crawling tattoo's of Vigor are allowed, and my argument has not been defeated. I'm not saying that the increased crafting cost of psionic tattoo's should be applied to crawling tattoo's. Nor am I saying that the passage from the psionic tattoo crafting rules allows crawling tattoo's of personal range powers. I'm saying that there is nothing that says we cannot use crawling tattoo's of a personal power. Just because there are passages about personal powers in reference to two other types of items does not mean that we should apply the same rules to crawling tattoo's. Unfortunately the rules for crawling tattoo's are a little thin. We have no ML dependance in the price of these times. I could buy a crawling tattoo of Mind Thrust augmented to 20d10 damage for 50gp and no cost of credits, or a skate at ML20 that is unaugmented but has a durration of 20 minutes. This is why I asked for a rules clarification.
Vathelokai 12-03-05, 10:44 AM	It seems to me that the houserule that the CoCo has that augmentation be treated with the same mechanic that adding a meta-magic power to a spell for purposes of determining cost is fair. It only makes sense. IMHO! TMIndeed, it is sensable, but it is not by the rules.
SauroGrenom 12-03-05, 10:51 AM	That makes no sense "as is" to me, mechanically. I mean, meta-magic feats are basically "augmentations" to a given spell, in that they raise the level of the spell to cause more damage, have a greater effect, bigger AoE, etc. An empowered wand of Magic Missiles would have a caster level of 5 and a spell level of 3. I guess the difference is that most damage dealing spells scale with level for free (ex. fireball - 1d6 per CL, max 10d6) while a lot of the powers I have seen require greater expenditure of PP to augment them and get more damage out of them. It seems to me that the houserule that the CoCo has that augmentation be treated with the same mechanic that adding a meta-magic power to a spell for purposes of determining cost is fair. It only makes sense. IMHO! TM The analogous thing to meta-magic is meta-psionic. Not Augmented. Meta magiced magic missiles can bypass a lesser globe of invulnerability. No matter how high a psion augments his crystal shard power it will never bypass that protection. You cannot compare meta-magic to augmentation. All variables are dependent on the degree that a power is augmented, and only durration increases for free. As I said before, the CoCo does not have a rule that increases the PL for augmented dorje's. The SRD has a rule that says you can only augment by 5pp at a max. We already have rules to govern augmentation of powers in Dorje's. Use the rules we have. If you realy want new rules, take it up with Cat and the rest of the elders. Honestly, I think you'd have a hard time selling that one.
SauroGrenom 12-03-05, 10:55 AM	@ Sauro Suppose what you say is correct. Answer me this then. You want to put powers with a range of personal into a crawling tattoo, yes? Let's look at the definition of a range of personal. Now, given that very closed-ended definition, can you kindly tell me how a power that has a range of personal can even be made into a crawling tattoo, who's entire design is to affect parties other than yourself? It seems to me that the RAW, though poorly worded, does speak for itself. A range of personal can't be put into a crawling tattoo. This is both the RAW and the RAI. As Usurpator said, putting personal range powers into crawling tattoos just to circumvent the double cost rule is very poor form, and tastes very much of munchkinism (and no, I'm not saying you are one....just describing the impression this all gives me LOL). NiQil, if we suppose you are correct, then how does a crafter of bracers of armor craft an item that will provide an AC bonus to anyone other than himself. Realy the original target and range of a spell crafted into a crawling tattoo (or anyother crafted magic item) are irrelevant. The original parameters of several different spells/powers change when crafted into magical items. An Elemental Gem allows you to summon an elemental as a standard action where the corresponding spell ususally takes a full round to cast. If I look through the various wondrous items and universal items, I'm sure that I could find others that simularly alter the normal parameters of the spells they are based on. Also there is no specific prohibition to using powers with a range of personal in a crawling tatoo. There are specific prohibitions for several other classifications of powers, but not that one. There is no good reason to invent another prohibition. The good people at wizards have said time and time again that if the rules to not specifically prohibit it, then it is allowed. Apply that general rule of thumb there.
SauroGrenom 12-03-05, 11:08 AM	That still didn't answer my question. How can you put a power with a range of personal (which cannot be targeted) into a tattoo that is specifically designed to target someone/something in order to deploy said power? Personal range powers have a "Target:" entry. It reads "You". These powers are targeted. There are examples of powers that are not targeted. Concealing Amorphia is an example. It has no "Target:" entry. When you craft an item you are not required to actually "Target" the effect or even realy cast the spell. You loose the spell fom your memorized spell list or the pp used to manifest the power, but the effect of the spell doesn't go off. You workshop is not blasted by a fireball when you're making a wand of fireballs.
TheMagister 12-03-05, 11:17 AM	Honestly, I think you'd have a hard time selling that one. Wasn't really trying to evoke a change in the rules (and re-reading my post, I don't see how you drew that conclusion) so much as stating my opinion. All I know is that at 4th level, a Wilder 4 augmented and wild surged an energy bolt and got about 30 damage out of it. That's just neat as heck. However, I would greatly dislike someone being able to duplicate an item like that (without the wild surge, of course) and be able to continuously pump out augmented energy rays as cheaply as they can UNaugmented energy rays. All I'm saying is that there SHOULD be a price difference, because there is a QUALITY difference. Furthermore, the price difference should scale exponentially just like comperable items do. All of this is, of course, just my opinion. I have no good experience with psionics other than that which I've gleaned from my time here in the CoCo. From what I've seen, psionics are much, much more powerful and useful that standard magic. Truthfully, I don't have a problem with that. For example, most players would agree that, all in all, a greatsword is more effective than just about any other two-handed weapon. Doesn't mean a greatsword should do less damage. Just means there should be a price difference. And there is. Full plate is great armor. Really great. So great, that it should be expensive, and out of the reach of lower level characters for awhile. And it is. Adamantine, mithral, vorpal, wounding; the game has a plethora of examples of stuff that players/DMs can look at and say initially "man, that's powerful!". Then they look at the price tag and think, "oh. Well, that makes sense, then!". A 4th level character just shouldn't be able to pump out massive damage/utility/AC out of an expendable item. It throws off the power curve of the game. All I'm saying is that there should be a price difference in place to make items that are more powerful/effective/desireable harder to acquire. Now, I will end saying this: The rules don't agree with me in this instance. That's fine. We, as players and DMs and Pitlords have the right to say, "These rules are wrong!". So, if the majority of players see an issue, then there IS an issue, regardless of what the RAW says. IMO, I think there's an issue. Talk amongst yourselves. :D TM
Usurpator 12-03-05, 11:20 AM	Respectfully, that means diddly. Your opinion is not what the CoCo rules are based on. I would appreciate it if you respond to just my arguments and not get personal. Prefacing such comments with 'respectfully' does not make them any more respectful. So far I feel that I have made a case that says that crawling tattoo's of Vigor are allowed, and my argument has not been defeated. Indeed, I agree, they have not been 'defeated', but neither have my arguments for the opposite point of view. What I meant when I said: 'you can read it the rules what you want to read' that the rules are not crystal clear on this point. Without crystal clarity 'defeating' other arguments makes little sense. You can only express an interpretation that matches game rules, game balance and game logic as closely as possible and hope others empathize with your point of view. Unfortunately the rules for crawling tattoo's are a little thin. We have no ML dependance in the price of these times. I could buy a crawling tattoo of Mind Thrust augmented to 20d10 damage for 50gp and no cost of credits, or a skate at ML20 that is unaugmented but has a durration of 20 minutes. This is why I asked for a rules clarification. Precisely, and when the rules are thin, I think you should try to get a sense of the general logic and intention of the system. You just concluded yourself that the rules don't make sense and need clarification. I tried to give some clarification, my only fault was giving a clarification that didn't fit your view on the matter even though my clarification has game balanced and is internally consistent. I am not saying I am right, neither am I saying that you are wrong. I am merely saying that my point of view makes sense.
SauroGrenom 12-03-05, 11:24 AM	All I'm saying is that there SHOULD be a price difference, because there is a QUALITY difference. Furthermore, the price difference should scale exponentially just like comperable items do. There is a price difference. It just increases linearly instead of exponentialy. This is the same as the increases in price that you get when your caster level increases with wands, scrolls or potions. I think that increase in price is enough. Sorry that I got a little cheaky there.
TheMagister 12-03-05, 12:07 PM	I know you're getting what I'm saying. I still think that you're being short-sighted (maybe the word is "tunnel-visioned"). A CL 3 wand of scorching ray vs. a ML 3 dorje of energy ray (fire) augmented 2pp SR deals 4d6 fire damage. ER(f) deals 3d6+3 damage. Pretty comparable. Except that the wand is the more expensive of the two. Wand: 3 (CL) x 2 (spell level) x 750 = 4500gp. Dorje: 3 (ML) x 1 (power level) x 750 = 2250gp. Pretty large difference. Let's up the CL/ML, and see what we get. A CL 7 wand of scorching ray vs. a ML 7 dorje of energy ray (fire) augmented 6pp SR deals 8d6 fire damage. ER(f) deals 7d6+7 fire damage. Fairly comperable, until you think about the fact that scorching ray is at its best at level 7 when it does 8d6, AND the fact that you have to hit with two different attack rolls to make it effective. Also, ER(f) has a MUCH better average damage. And now, the cost difference: Wand: 7 (CL) x 2 (spell level) x 750 = 10500gp Dorje: 7 (ML) x 1 (power level) x 750 = 5250gp HALF!! It only costs 5250 (not even the cost of a Bag of Tricks (tan)) to dish an average of 31 fire damage a round with a single touch attack. A psionic user would be a fool not to have one of these (or something similar) on his belt for those "I'm all out of PP, what do I do?" times in the arena. I don't think the linear (uncapped except by ML) progression is sensible. Now, before you say it, YES, this is only one spell/power comparison. YES there are others. But I think that it is an exceedingly fair comparison, as I'm comparing a really powerful 2nd level spell to a fairly powerful 1st level power. If you can think of a more fairly thought out example, I'd be pleased to read it. Finally (and I repeat) I don't disagree with your dissection of the RAW. I disagree with the RAW itself. TM
SauroGrenom 12-03-05, 12:08 PM	Indeed, I agree, they have not been 'defeated', but neither have my arguments for the opposite point of view. What I meant when I said: 'you can read it the rules what you want to read' that the rules are not crystal clear on this point. Without crystal clarity 'defeating' other arguments makes little sense. You can only express an interpretation that matches game rules, game balance and game logic as closely as possible and hope others empathize with your point of view. Precisely, and when the rules are thin, I think you should try to get a sense of the general logic and intention of the system. You just concluded yourself that the rules don't make sense and need clarification. I tried to give some clarification, my only fault was giving a clarification that didn't fit your view on the matter even though my clarification has game balanced and is internally consistent. I am not saying I am right, neither am I saying that you are wrong. I am merely saying that my point of view makes sense. Sorry for being flipant. I feel that we have two very different approaches to the ambiguities in the rules here. Also we are approaching two different ambiguities here. Your contention(if I understand it correctly) is that powers with a range of personal are not permitted to be crawling tattoo's. This is because of the specific statement that says that Body Adjustment is permitted to be a crawling tattoo. You propose that we consider what is implied by the rules and balanced with respect to other items and powers to make a ruling on this point. My contention is that with regard to personal powers, we should read the rules as written. The rules do not disallow powers that have a range of personal to be crawling tattoo's so we should not prevent crawling tattoo's of say Vigor from being possable. I feel that there is realy no question about this. We have a clear set of prohibited powers and an unclear exception. We cannot be sure what the exception is refering to, so we can take it at face value and allow Body Adjustment crawling tattoo's (even though that power was not prohibited to begin with). What we end with is that personal range powers are not in the prohibited list, so they must be allowed. This is all drawn form the RAW with no need to conjecture about what is balanced and fare. Where I feel we have ambiguity in the rules is with pricing of these items, and only with pricing of these items. In this regard, the double price of psionic tattoo's with powers that have a range of personal appears to not be applicable. But it is unclear how the price of crawling tattoo's changes with increased ML. We have price points for three crawling tattoos, but no equation that governs their pricing. So there is a lack of a way to calculate the price of the item if it has increased ML. Perhaps we should fall back on the pricing equations that govern wondrous items(and universal items). Perhaps we should make a CoCo house rule and price them the same as psionic tattoo's. Perhaps something else. Whatever is the final decision a hole in the rules has been found and needs to be filled. That is where I ask for GM intervention.
KerlanRayne 12-03-05, 12:21 PM	You all didn't look closely enough at the rules for dorjes. The house rule on power stones wasn't pulled from thin air, it was based on rules for dorjes. Here's a quote: If an augmentable power is incorporated into a dorje at a higher manifester level than the minimum level required to manifest the power, each discharge of the power from the dorje is augmented to the limit of that higher manifester level. Alternatively, if you want to have a higher manifester level in the dorje, you must pay for the dorje as if the power was one level higher for each additional two manifester levels you want. For example, energy missile is a 2nd-level kineticist power with a minimum manifester level of 3rd. If you wanted to make a dorje of energy missile with a manifester level of 8th (five higher than the minimum), you would pay for the creation of the dorje as if energy missile was a 5th-level power.There you go. KerlanRayne
SauroGrenom 12-03-05, 12:25 PM	TheMagister, Nice analysis, but two minor errors. Scorching ray caps out at CL11, not 7 (I think) but that realy is not signifigant in your analysis. Also, you cannot make a dorje of Energy ray at ML7. It caps at ML6. Still the damage is simular to that of the scorching ray for a lower cost. Scorching ray has its advantages. It is able to target multiple enemies if you wish and Energy Ray cannot do that. In several regards, dorje's are more potent than wands. Dorje's can store powers of any level, not just up to 4th like wands. Cat may agree with you, but psions already have a tough time surviving in the Arena. They do not get powers that do all the cool things that mages spells can do. There is no power that causes exaustion, nor a power that makes your enemies sleep, to laugh and waste all actions, be nauseated, blinded and only one that makes you stunned and you need to fail two saves for that. Mages have advantages in there own ways that psions cannot match. Psions have a slight advantage in damage output, but they have more limited capabilities. KerlanRayne, Nice Spot on the rules there. I should have looked that up.
lonewolf 12-03-05, 12:41 PM	You all didn't look closely enough at the rules for dorjes. The house rule on power stones wasn't pulled from thin air, it was based on rules for dorjes. Here's a quote: There you go. KerlanRayne right. I didnt look at this part of the rules. Thanks for clearing that up.
Cerebus13 12-03-05, 02:10 PM	I must have missed this last week, but a good question is answered by Huan in this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7871324&postcount=290) post. Question: is 20 feet up effectively outside of an Entangle spell? Huan did some digging and found that Entangle is considered to have a range of Spread....and Spread is considered a Burst that can go around corners. Bursts are normally spherical areas, so techically Entangle can affect a sphere of area. Is this true? For the longest time I thought that Entangle only worked if you were walking on the ground in the 40' radius circle it covered.
SauroGrenom 12-03-05, 02:31 PM	Huan is absolutely correct about how the spread area works. You simple caclulate the distance along the surface and around the corner to determine the area of effect. With regard to the Arena, we need to keep in mind what we know about the area and apply it to the effect of an entangle spell. Entangle works on any surface where plants are growing, but not on bare stone. Grasses, shrubbs, or any other kind of vegitation is sufficient. Because the environment of the Arena is always favorable, it is easy to think that there is some kind of grass that allows Entangle to function on the ground surfaces when druids and rangers are present. It's kind of a streatch to say that the walls and ceiling are covered in vegitation as well. Strictly speaking there is nothing to say that the walls and ceiling are covered in vegitation or not. The pitlord would probably get to make a call in this case.
NiQil 12-03-05, 02:57 PM	The good people at wizards have said time and time again that if the rules to not specifically prohibit it, then it is allowed. Apply that general rule of thumb there. I'm going to have to disagree with you here, Sauro. The way the rules have been written, generally speaking, if the rules don't say that you CAN do something, then you can't. Not the other way around as you have stated. By your logic, I should be able to make a crawling tattoo of magic missile. Nothing in the rules says you can't put spells into crawling tattoos. By your logic I should be able to make a crawling tattoo of time stop, because while the level of powers in a tattoos is restricted, levels of spells are not. My point is that, in this case, the rules do not say you can place personal powers into crawling tattoos...nor do they say you can't. But they do have a clear example of a personal power that you can craft into a crawling tattoo, and they list it as an exception that implies you cannot put personal powers into tattoos. That seems to me to be a clear case of RAI not being 100% spelled out in the RAW.
SauroGrenom 12-03-05, 03:17 PM	I'm going to have to disagree with you here, Sauro. The way the rules have been written, generally speaking, if the rules don't say that you CAN do something, then you can't. Not the other way around as you have stated. By your logic, I should be able to make a crawling tattoo of magic missile. Nothing in the rules says you can't put spells into crawling tattoos. By your logic I should be able to make a crawling tattoo of time stop, because while the level of powers in a tattoos is restricted, levels of spells are not. My point is that, in this case, the rules do not say you can place personal powers into crawling tattoos...nor do they say you can't. But they do have a clear example of a personal power that you can craft into a crawling tattoo, and they list it as an exception that implies you cannot put personal powers into tattoos. That seems to me to be a clear case of RAI not being 100% spelled out in the RAW. Look NiQil, ...crawling tattoo can be scribed only with a power of no higher than 3rd level... That's very clear that we can only scribe powers and not spells into tattoo's. That the exception you mention is present is irrelevant to applying the rules. You cannot say that people are violating rules when they are infact interpreting an ambigious section of the rules in a different way than you are. There is nothing that says crawling tattoo's cannot be made of powers with a "Personal" range. It should be allowed untill Cat or the Councle of Elders determines otherwise. I'm not going to edit my character sheets untill something is posted in the CoCo house rules that prohibits these crawling tattoo's. Untill something is posted there I will not be violating any rules. And Pitlords should allow my chracters to use those tattoo's because they are not illegal.
SauroGrenom 12-03-05, 03:45 PM	It was my understanding that you are not permitted to pre-buff with dissolving weapon/dissolving touch or simular effects. Is this true?
Book5 12-03-05, 04:21 PM	Here is my two cents on the crawling tatoo debate. "Target one or more creatures" while conceptually "personal" is "one creature" mechanically it is not. body adjustment is listed as an exception ... because its target IS NOT "one or more creatures" get it? Now the real problem, is that (along with allot of the Psionics .. eh! ever since the dawn of psionics! ) the item is not well written, nor rigourously considered. It says "targets one or more creatures" then proceeds to discuss area spells. Defines two sweeping exceptions (as an aside??? ) and gives no clarification of why body adjustment is allowed and brain lock arnt... "Crawling tattoos can ferry beneficial powers as well as harmful ones, and a target can allow the tattoo’s touch attack to succeed if he or she desires." So the body adjustment isnt an exception for the reason that it is a benificial power... and why spells like Brain Lock cant be crawling tattoos??? No clear explanation there either. SO this is MY suggestion (Will DC19): Allow personal target tats - for credits.. oh just keep reading. Allow these THREE tats for no credits Crawling Tattoo of Body Adjustment (ML3), Concussion (ML2), and Energy Bolt (ML3). The rest are creditory Hey, Potions say "It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute." Yet you have to pay credits for any potion not listed... Thats logical and fair to everyone. What an idea!
Cerebus13 12-03-05, 04:22 PM	It was my understanding that you are not permitted to pre-buff with dissolving weapon/dissolving touch or simular effects. Is this true?No, you can prebuff with the dissolving abilities because they do not wear off until actually used to deal damage.
SauroGrenom 12-03-05, 05:44 PM	Book5, Brain Lock is not allowed because it is a Telepathy(compulsion) power and those powers are expressly prohibited. while conceptually "personal" is "one creature" mechanically it is not. body adjustment is listed as an exception ... because its target IS NOT "one or more creatures" get it? Where you get this is confusing to me. Please describe how this idea came about. My reading of the Body Adjustment power tells me that its target is "You" and in all cases "You" is a creature. A quote from the SRD that indicates how the range category of a spell being "personal" negates the target entry from counting as a creature or item would clear it up. Hey, Potions say "It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute." Yet you have to pay credits for any potion not listed... Well potions are in the DMG which is a large text. The XPH is not nearly as large and does not have lists of powerstones, psionic tattoo's or dorje's. Perhaps you would also suggest that any of those items cost credits as well. Also your suggestion is much more drastic than any other suggestions.
Book5 12-03-05, 06:28 PM	Book5, Brain Lock is not allowed because it is a Telepathy(compulsion) power and those powers are expressly prohibited. I know that but "why" what makes telepathy (cumpulsion) "special" its a cursory balancing act and nothing more - they said "needs to not work for everything how about no telepathy" or something roughly equivalent Where you get this is confusing to me. Please describe how this idea came about. My reading of the Body Adjustment power tells me that its target is "You" and in all cases "You" is a creature. A quote from the SRD that indicates how the range category of a spell being "personal" negates the target entry from counting as a creature or item would clear it up. Nope "You" is the caster - the caster is the crawling thing - so maybe I'm leaping "too far" but I just ... look up .. one ... line to see the range as "personal" maybe thats where I am getting cofused but I dont think so. The real line is here "even though it effects only the manifestor" SO thats what kind of powers are not allowed to be crawling tattoos? Powers that effect only the manifestor. (Except Body Adjustment) Telepathy (Compulsion) Powers. Well potions are in the DMG which is a large text. The XPH is not nearly as large and does not have lists of powerstones, psionic tattoo's or dorje's. Perhaps you would also suggest that any of those items cost credits as well. Also your suggestion is much more drastic than any other suggestions. Really? I hadnt noticed ;) I use srd/pdf version so the sizes are all virtually nothing to me. Honestly, since the whole credit thing is "shell" as opposed to "core" yeah I don' car' that its drastic. Put the power in my hands and you will have to pay credits for dorjes and tattoos... or not have to pay credits for their equivalent magical phenomena! I understand and have rationalized the excuses for the credit calls, doesnt mean I agree.
Macbrea 12-04-05, 10:19 AM	A crawling tattoo is a Fine Construct in the similar way as a psion could produce an astral construct. It then makes an attack against the person to touch them and manifest the spell on them. By the basic targetting rules it is unable to target another person with a personal spell. There was an exception to the rule made in the top section of the description for the crawling tattoo for one power. Basic tattoos have the ability to target personal spells on the person because it doesn't produce the Construct to cast the spell and in the Create Custom Tattoo section it states specifictly that you can do personal tattoos at twice normal cost. Craft Potion in the Magic item section specificly states you cannot craft potions with Personal as the target. Can you please tell me how in the rules a Construct can target another person with a Personal spell?
TheMagister 12-04-05, 10:33 AM	Want to questlord next week? Ashur (Luni) and the gatekeeper (Iced) want to go on an EL8 quest to slay demons. The quest goal is Warfare alliance membership. ~Iced Sounds good to me! A mini-quest (1 week) of demonslaying, coming up! TM PM'd to the Pitlords' PM box! TM
SauroGrenom 12-04-05, 12:30 PM	A crawling tattoo is a Fine Construct in the similar way as a psion could produce an astral construct. It then makes an attack against the person to touch them and manifest the spell on them. By the basic targetting rules it is unable to target another person with a personal spell. There was an exception to the rule made in the top section of the description for the crawling tattoo for one power. Basic tattoos have the ability to target personal spells on the person because it doesn't produce the Construct to cast the spell and in the Create Custom Tattoo section it states specifictly that you can do personal tattoos at twice normal cost. Craft Potion in the Magic item section specificly states you cannot craft potions with Personal as the target. Can you please tell me how in the rules a Construct can target another person with a Personal spell? @book5 as well, I covered this earlier. The crawling tattoo does not manifest any powers. It delivers an effect based on the effect of a power. The range parameters of the original power are irrelevant. The crawling tattoo stores an effect and alters the effect to be "Range: Touch" and "Target: One creature or item". Potions do a simular thing, as well as normal Psionic Tattoo's, as well as a whole bunch of wondrous items and universal items. A crawling tattoo is not a tiny construct. It is a universal item. The tiny construct is the game mechanic used to determine how to interact with it while it tries to deliver a touch attack. It is critical to not think of the tiny construct as manifesting a power. The tiny construt has no pp, it does not have the necessry stats to manifest powers and it has no HD or class levels or psi-like abilities. It cannot manifest powers it delivers an effect. The rules we have are cear as to what powers are elegable to be the basis for the effect delvered by a crawling tattoo. Only powers of 3rd level or less that have a "Target" entry and do not have xp cost and are not Telepathy(compusion) powers are elegable. Vigor for example fits the criterion and can be crafted into a crawling tattoo. As I've said time and time again in previous posts over the last few days, the exception granted to Body Adjustment is leading many to a logical flaw. It does not state that personal range powers are not allowed. It tells us that a particular personal range power is allowed. Two very different things are being confused. The fact that the crafting tattoo section of the srd tells us psionic tattoo's that deliver effects that are typically "Range: Personal" cost twice is not relevant. It does not imply or state that the effect of those powers cannot be crafted into a universal item. And crawling tattoo's are universal items. You need to divest yourself from clinging to the "Range" entries of the powers you want to become crawling tattoo's. The various powers and spells that are in the SRD are often used as the basis of wondrous items and universal items. In many cases the casting time, range, target, and other parameters of the original spell or power are changed in the effect of the item. Crawling tattoo's are just another example of the same practice we have seen time and time again with other items. A crawling tattoo produces the effect of any elegible power and it delivers that effect with a range of touch. The only real ambiguitly in the rules is the price of these items. That is where we need some GM/Elder intervention to invent some pricing rules for the items. As it currently stands the price of these itmes is not dependant on ML in any way. That fact is unbalancing and a source of potential abuse.
Pittbull 12-04-05, 01:10 PM	It's only my opinion: Yes, you can make crawling tattoos with personal range powers, they are not double-priced because they aren't psionic tattoos, but universal items. They are no constructs, they should be only treated as ones. Treat it as a Fine construct that has AC 18, 10 hit points, a hardness of 5, speed 30 feet, and a bonus on attack rolls equal to the wearer’s manifester level + his key ability modifier. Don't forget they don't work automatically, you can still roll a 1! on the touchattack and you receive the power not instantly when you tap the tattoo, but when the tattoo does the successful touchattack.
Mind Rogue 12-04-05, 01:54 PM	Except that the crawling tatoos explicitely call out that personal range powers cannot be scribed, save for the given exception of Body Adjustment. I'm just confused why this is all under discussion.
Pittbull 12-04-05, 02:15 PM	Like a psionic tattoo, a crawling tattoo can be scribed only with a power of no higher than 3rd level that targets one or more creatures. Exceptions are the body adjustment power, which can be scribed even though it affects only the manifester, and telepathy (compulsion) powers, which cannot be scribed at all. Ah, this was the point. Does this really mean that body adjustment is the only power with personal range which can be used? We used crawling tattoos differrently since months here in the CoCo.
Mal-2 12-04-05, 06:38 PM	Ah, this was the point. Does this really mean that body adjustment is the only power with personal range which can be used? We used crawling tattoos differrently since months here in the CoCo. That's what I always thought it meant. Potions don't allow personal spells at all. Psionic tattoos do allow them, but they cost more. I assumed the verbage in the XPH meant crawling tattoos didn't allow them at all either. I don't agree with the idea that the sentence doesn't mean anything. It is certainly meant to restict what spells go into crawling tattoos. It then gives body adjustment as an exception to the general rule. Isn't this close to the 3.0 potion wording that was meant to exclude personal spells? Ah yes: The character can create a potion of any spell of 3rd level or lower that the character knows and that targets a creature or creatures. I think they just used the old version of brew potion to write that part (or possibly copied and pasted the old wording from the 3.0 Psionics Handbook)
SauroGrenom 12-04-05, 11:34 PM	Ah, this was the point. Does this really mean that body adjustment is the only power with personal range which can be used? We used crawling tattoos differrently since months here in the CoCo. If you look at what the passage says, you see that it tells us that a particular power can be scribed into a crawling tattoo. This is not meaningless per-say. The other statements about the powers that are elegable would not exclude Body Adjustment from being a crawling tattoo. So the presence of this sentence which grants specific permission is confusing, and it is another example of the sometimes unclear language of the psionics rules. How this unclear sentence got here and the intention of the writers who put it there is all conjecture. And this kind of conjecture is potentially dangerous because it can lead us down a windy path of discussion and argument that is tangential to the real question at hand. The central question here is whether crawling tattoo's can be crafted that deliver the effect of powers that typicaly have a range of personal. If we simply read the rules as they are, we find an answer. That answer is: Yes you can craft any crawling tattoo with an effect of a power 3rd level or less has a "Target" or "Area" entry no xp cost and is not a Telepathy(compulsion) power. Many powers of range personal satisfy the criterion. This criterion is not precisely overlapping the one that governs the crafting of psionic tattoo's. For example it is possable to craft a psionic tattoo of Concealing Amorphia. But is it not possable to craft that power into a crawling tattoo. Some in this discussion want to write a new sentence that expressly forbids crawling tattoo's from delivering effects based on powers that are typically personal. A sentence that says this is not in the srd. A sentence thay may suggest this is in the srd. So many people feel justified in writing a new sentence into the rules. Some people approach the problem with a perspective that tries to consider what is balanced in the game as a whole when they write and justify the new sentence. Others approach the problem with the intention of making crawling tattoos as much like other simular items as possable. There are even a few who have suggested highly restrictive rules that render crawling tattoo's practically useless. In my opinion doing such a thing is treading on thin ice. We should not start writing new rules where we already have rules even though some disagree with or are confused by the rules. We should simply use the rules we have. We have core rules and only where they are obviously unbalanced or clarification is necessary do we need to make houserules. In my opinion the only clarification necessary is something to govern the pricing of crawling tattoo's if they are crafted at increased ML and/or with augmented powers. As for that final question of pricing. Crawling tattoos of force screen or skate are not vastly cheaper(only50gp) than there counterpart psionic tattoo's. They have effects that are delivered with a delay but are a bit more versitile and a slightly lower price. The price of these items are reasonable in my opinion. An equation to govern the pricing of a single-use use-activated universal item is 50gp x power level x manifester level. This equation will correctly calculate the price of several other universal items, and in my opinion is a reasonable equation to apply to crawling tattoo's of increased ML. Also, the use of crawling tattoo's overlaps the use of psionic tattoos to a signifigant (not complete) degree it may be a good idea to apply the CoCo house rule on augmented psionic tattoo's(credit cost) to crawling tattoo's as well for the same reason that the rule was created for psionic tattoo's in the first place. If such a thing is decided it should be posted in the rules thread.
Altaris13 12-05-05, 08:59 AM	Anyone up to run a MQ for Minesbiggerinyers to join PSI? It would be greatly appreciated. She is ECL4.
Huan 12-05-05, 10:58 AM	...
Vathelokai 12-05-05, 12:01 PM	Anyone up to run a MQ for Minesbiggerinyers to join PSI? It would be greatly appreciated. She is ECL4. From Characters of Gladius: post 3(quest log) # QL TelinArtho: Looking for Players # QL Myrridin: Looking for Players # QL Iced: Looking for Players
Vathelokai 12-05-05, 12:07 PM	So I went and looked up "targets one or more creatures", and the wording seems to imply that "target: you" is considered a type of "target: one or more creatures." Unless I'm mistaken, this would mean that personal crawling tatoos are not banned by sentence number 1. If you look in the section of the SRD, there is no entry for a target of personal. Target or Targets: Some powers have a target or targets. You manifest these powers on creatures or objects, as defined by the power itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. However, you do not have to select your target until you finish manifesting the power. If you manifest a targeted power on the wrong type of target the power has no effect. If the target of a power is yourself (the power description has a line that reads “Target: You”), you do not receive a saving throw and power resistance does not apply. The Saving Throw and Power Resistance lines are omitted from such powers. Some powers can be manifested only on willing targets. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing. The Saving Throw and Power Resistance lines are usually omitted from such powers, since only willing subjects can be targeted.
NiQil 12-05-05, 12:12 PM	So I went and looked up "targets one or more creatures", and the wording seems to imply that "target: you" is considered a type of "target: one or more creatures." Unless I'm mistaken, this would mean that personal crawling tatoos are not banned by sentence number 1. Target or Targets: Some powers have a target or targets. You manifest these powers on creatures or objects, as defined by the power itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. However, you do not have to select your target until you finish manifesting the power. If you manifest a targeted power on the wrong type of target the power has no effect. If the target of a power is yourself (the power description has a line that reads “Target: You”), you do not receive a saving throw and power resistance does not apply. The Saving Throw and Power Resistance lines are omitted from such powers. Some powers can be manifested only on willing targets. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing. The Saving Throw and Power Resistance lines are usually omitted from such powers, since only willing subjects can be targeted. I don't really see what you are getting at here. What you have quoted would appear to indicate that if you put a power in a crawling tattoo with the target "You", that it would simply not have an effect, because it is the wrong type of target. Another party is clearly not "You".
Usurpator 12-05-05, 12:19 PM	@Cat: I see you retro-actively added the monster fights to the power-ratings. While I think it is a fine idea to count monster fights for your power rating, I don't think they are worth as much as defeating a gladiator in the same league, let alone a flat 100 points per fight. Fights against other gladiators are lost 50% of the time (obviously), if monster fight's were approximately the same challenge, gladiators would have to lose 50% of their fights against them. Currently I am seeing something like 80% wins against 20% losses against monsters. So I propose: A. Defeating monsters add to your rating as regular gladiators do. That means that a ratio depending on your own power rating is used, not a flat bonus. B. Monsters are not as strong as gladiators. A base power of 1000 for each monster is too high. I propose a base power of 800. This will bring it more in line with the 80% victories against 20% losses in monster fights. It now seems that the largest effect of changing the way monster fights are counted is increasing the power rating of your own characters by several hundreds of points.
Vathelokai 12-05-05, 12:21 PM	I don't really see what you are getting at here. What you have quoted would appear to indicate that if you put a power in a crawling tattoo with the target "You", that it would simply not have an effect, because it is the wrong type of target. Another party is clearly not "You". you can put any effect with any target into a magic item; it's a seperate circumstance...but anyway, my point... 1: Crawling tattoos resemble standard psionic tattoos, but their effects are often harmful rather than beneficial. 2: Like a psionic tattoo, a crawling tattoo can be scribed only with a power of no higher than 3rd level that targets one or more creatures. 3: A: Exceptions are the body adjustment power, which can be scribed even though it affects only the manifester, B:and telepathy (compulsion) powers, which cannot be scribed at all. 4: Powers that normally have an area affect only one target if scribed in a crawling tattoo 5: Powers with an experience point requirement cannot be scribed into a crawling tattoo. 6: Otherwise, crawling tattoos are treated as psionic tattoos until they are activated by the wearer.Line 2 is the line in question, suplemented by line 3A. Line 2 specifies that only spells that target one or more creatures can be crawling psionic tatoos. In the quote above, I show that "target: one or more creatures" includes "target: you" in the psionics powers description. There is no specific entry in the powers description that diferentiates between the two types of targets. Thus, target: you is target: creature; but target; creature is not always target: you. (in the same way that a square in not a rectangle). Since according to the description of the targets, personal powers are not banned by line 2, then line 3A is a mis-statement, and personal powers are governed by line 6.
Usurpator 12-05-05, 12:36 PM	In the quote above, I show that "target: one or more creatures" includes "target: you" in the psionics powers description. You didn't show that. You showed that 'You' is also target. Not that 'Targets one or more creatures' includes 'Target: You'. I never contended that 'You' is not a target. Obviously, it must be, otherwise it couldn't fall under an entry of Target: Objects are also targets, spells are also targets. Obviously objects and spells don't fall under the 'one or more creatures' clause. Linguistically, 'you' are a creature. Game-technically, I am not sure in this case.
NiQil 12-05-05, 12:42 PM	In all honesty, with all of the rule ambiguities on the issue, I think the crawling tattoo issue is going to take an Elder vote to resolve. The wording if the rules is just too poor to clearly state that one side or the other is correct. I believe that they can't be made....others believe they can...but the poor wording does not 100% justify either claim. It doesn't even 75% justify it LOL. Hopefully, we can get an Elder vote on this and put it to rest. As an aside....anyone seen LLMC? He hasn't been around for a week and a half....and the prison hasn't been updated for that long either.
Vathelokai 12-05-05, 12:46 PM	You didn't show that. You showed that 'You' is also target. Not that 'Targets one or more creatures' includes 'Target: You'. I never contended that 'You' is not a target. Obviously, it must be, otherwise it couldn't fall under an entry of Target: Objects are also targets, spells are also targets. Obviously objects and spells don't fall under the 'one or more creatures' clause. Linguistically, 'you' are a creature. Game-technically, I am not sure in this case. I think I'm not being clear... And it seems I didn't search hard enough. What I'm saying is that under the description of the phrase "targets one or more creatures", it does not say that personal spells/powers don't count. It mentions personal powers, and it could be assumed that personal is a type of target creature. It was argued that "targets one or more creatures" was defined as banning personal spells, but I don't see that backed up in the powers description.
Vathelokai 12-05-05, 12:49 PM	In all honesty, with all of the rule ambiguities on the issue, I think the crawling tattoo issue is going to take an Elder vote to resolve. The wording if the rules is just too poor to clearly state that one side or the other is correct. I believe that they can't be made....others believe they can...but the poor wording does not 100% justify either claim. It doesn't even 75% justify it LOL. Hopefully, we can get an Elder vote on this and put it to rest.Compeltely agreed. But trying to get the elders to vote is like pulling teeth sometimes... Dosn't Cat get back tomorrow? As an aside....anyone seen LLMC? He hasn't been around for a week and a half....and the prison hasn't been updated for that long either. Nope... hasn't checked into his campaign for a while either. ToK might know; they IM.
Usurpator 12-05-05, 12:57 PM	I think I'm not being clear... And it seems I didn't search hard enough. What I'm saying is that under the description of the phrase "targets one or more creatures", it does not say that personal spells/powers don't count. It mentions personal powers, and it could be assumed that personal is a type of target creature. It was argued that "targets one or more creatures" was defined as banning personal spells, but I don't see that backed up in the powers description. It seems that I was not clear. On one hand you have: The Target entry you quoted. This entry contains all valid types of targets: creatures, willing creatures, held weapons, one humanoid, objects, spells, manifesters, powers, you etc. On the other hand you have: The Crawling Tattoo text that says 'targets one or more creatures'. This is a specification of the Target requirements for these tattoos. The question at hand is: can 'Target: You' be considered a subset of 'one or more creatures'? My answer would be: no, I don't think it is a subset (even though it may be so linguistically). My argument is supported by the fact that the specifically list Body Adjustment as a power that is allowed. That sentence is not an erroneous sentence, it is an expection to the rule, just like the other expections that follow immediately after. EDIT: I also think it is much easier to make a mistake not spelling out the target requirements with crystal clarity than erronously mentioning an exception. A poorly written sentence is easily created, a specific exception usually involves a more conscious process.
SauroGrenom 12-05-05, 12:59 PM	Linguistically, 'you' are a creature. Game-technically, I am not sure in this case. That's a very sublte assumption in my argument. If you can prove the assumption to be incorrect in some way, then it would go a long way toward proving your point. The easiest way to prove the assumption incorrect is to find a counter example. It would help your point if you could find an example of a "Target: You" power or effect that effects something that is not a creature.
Vathelokai 12-05-05, 01:06 PM	The question at hand is: can 'Target: You' be considered a subset of 'one or more creatures'? Indeed, that is the crux of the arguement. My answer would be: no, I don't think it is a subset (even though it may be so linguistically). My argument is supported by the fact that the specifically list Body Adjustment as a power that is allowed. That sentence is not an erroneous sentence, it is an expection to the rule, just like the other expections that follow immediately after.And this is where we agree to disagree.EDIT: I also think it is much easier to make a mistake not spelling out the target requirements with crystal clarity than erronously mentioning an exception. A poorly written sentence is easily created, a specific exception usually involves a more conscious process.This is indeed true, and makes sense, but it's not what they wrote. I honestly don't feel comfortable interpreting Rules as Intended (even in cases where it seems obvious), as I have had bad experiences with GMs who do that to their advantage. So I guess it's for the elders to deal with. I just want to see it in the rules thread, or Cerebus13's FAQ.
Altaris13 12-05-05, 01:13 PM	Thanks Vath, I forgot about that roster. :embarrass
Vathelokai 12-05-05, 01:16 PM	Perhaps we could settle the crawling tatoo thing in the arena... Auburn[Vathelokai] and Kracknol[SauroGrenom] vs. Shazzlin[Usurpator] and Kronos[NiQil] or Hassan Sabbah and Kracknol vs. Methos and Shazzlin :D
Usurpator 12-05-05, 01:20 PM	That's a very sublte assumption in my argument. If you can prove the assumption to be incorrect in some way, then it would go a long way toward proving your point. The easiest way to prove the assumption incorrect is to find a counter example. It would help your point if you could find an example of a "Target: You" power or effect that effects something that is not a creature. It would not help my point, it would prove it immediately. And finding just an object is sufficient. Remember, the text mentions 'one or more creatures', there's nothing about objects there. Unfortunately, if I don't find it, nothing is proven either way. If I claim that Firetrucks can be other colors besides red, but I don't find any, it doesn't mean that Firetrucks can't be another color. But since 3.5 D&D is not a game of linguistics and literal rules, but of systematic principles, balance and intentions, it wouldn't help much to go back and forth over exact wordings. There's no such things as intentionless sentences and words.
Vathelokai 12-05-05, 01:24 PM	But since 3.5 D&D is not a game of linguistics and literal rules, but of systematic principles, balance and intentions, it wouldn't help much to go back and forth over exact wordings. There's no such things as intentionless sentences and words. Yes, but there are mis statements and bad editing, and we've been arguing about one all weekend.
NiQil 12-05-05, 01:26 PM	That's a very sublte assumption in my argument. If you can prove the assumption to be incorrect in some way, then it would go a long way toward proving your point. The easiest way to prove the assumption incorrect is to find a counter example. It would help your point if you could find an example of a "Target: You" power or effect that effects something that is not a creature. Here's one... Dimension Door, Psionic Psychoportation (Teleportation) Level: Psion/wilder 4, psychic warrior 4 Display: Visual Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level) Target or Targets: You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None and Will negates (object) Power Resistance: No and Yes (object) Power Points: 7 As the dimension door spell, except as noted here. Augment: If you spend 6 additional power points, you can manifest this power as a move action. Here's another: Dispelling Buffer Psychokinesis Level: Kineticist 6, psychic warrior 6 Display: Material and olfactory Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal or close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels); see text Target: You or one willing creature or one object (object weighing up to 100 lb./level); see text Duration: 1 hour/level (D) Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: Yes (harmless, object) Power Points: 11 And another: Energy Retort Psychokinesis [see text] Level: Psion/wilder 3 Display: Visual Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal and close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels); see text Targets: You and creature or object attacking you; see text Duration: 1 min./level Saving Throw: Reflex half or Fortitude half; see text Power Resistance: Yes Power Points: 5 I'm sure I can find more...these were just the first ones I ran across. Edit: Found some more: Levitate, Psionic Psychoportation Level: Nomad 2, psion/wilder 2, psychic warrior 2 Display: Olfactory Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal or close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: You or one willing creature or one object (total weight up to 100 lb./level) Duration: 10 min./level (D) Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: Yes (harmless, object) Power Points: 3 Skate Psychoportation Level: Psion/wilder 1, psychic warrior 1 Display: Material and visual Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal or touch; see text Target: You or one willing creature or one unattended object (total weight up to 100 lb./level); see text Duration: 1 min./level (D) Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: Yes (harmless, object) Power Points: 1 Teleport, Psionic Psychoportation (Teleportation) Level: Nomad 5 Display: Visual Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal and touch Target or Targets: You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None or Will negates (object) Power Resistance: No or Yes (object) Power Points: 9 I also found numerous instances (some quoted here) where Target: Willing creatures is clearly differentiated from Target: You....which would show that one does not include the other...they are seperate.
NiQil 12-05-05, 01:45 PM	Perhaps we could settle the crawling tatoo thing in the arena... Auburn[Vathelokai] and Kracknol[SauroGrenom] vs. Shazzlin[Usurpator] and Kronos[NiQil] or Hassan Sabbah and Kracknol vs. Methos and Shazzlin :D LOL you do realize both Methos and Kronos are ECL 5, yes?
Mal-2 12-05-05, 01:47 PM	I also found numerous instances (some quoted here) where Target: Willing creatures is clearly differentiated from Target: You....which would show that one does not include the other...they are seperate. I know that in 3.0 rules, Spells with a Target of 'You' were not considered to target 'a creature or creatures', because this exact wording was using for creating potions in 3.0 (as I quoted earlier). I believe there was a Sage Advice column where this was explained in excrutiating detail. Unfortunately, I can't find anything in any of the FAQs or Errata to back this up. The description in 3.5 was changed to be more clear about disallowing personal spells in potions. The 3.5 crawling tattoo wording is a clear carryover from 3.0. I wish I could find the old clarification of the wording to prove it though.
Vathelokai 12-05-05, 01:54 PM	LOL you do realize both Methos and Kronos are ECL 5, yes? yeah, auburn is ecl5 as well... Seems the roster still has methos in the ecl 4 league.
NiQil 12-05-05, 01:59 PM	yeah, auburn is ecl5 as well... Seems the roster still has methos in the ecl 4 league. Hasn't been updated yet...he leveled after the MQ he did this week to enter the Warfare Alliance.
Snommelp 12-05-05, 02:01 PM	Hasn't been updated yet...he leveled after the MQ he did this week to enter the Warfare Alliance. Well in that case I need to go change the WAR roster, too.
Scribelords 12-05-05, 02:44 PM	Well, as the community grows, so too does the Birthday Roster (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7048484&postcount=7). New dates added: Iced: May 13th Mal-2: July 22nd Sunwolf: August 11th Begferdeth: Decenber 22nd As usual, you gain 2° on your Birthday, so send that in as well as the year. (no lying about your age, now... :P ) Also, many of you should consider returning to writing stories for battles... a good one nets AT LEAST 1° ... if its really enjoyable, possibly more... -Scribelords
SauroGrenom 12-05-05, 02:51 PM	I also found numerous instances (some quoted here) where Target: Willing creatures is clearly differentiated from Target: You....which would show that one does not include the other...they are seperate. None of these example are telling us that a "Target: You" is not a creature. They simply tell us that there is a collection of spells and powers that are able to target other creatures as well as "You".
NiQil 12-05-05, 02:55 PM	None of these example are telling us that a "Target: You" is not a creature. They simply tell us that there is a collection of spells and powers that are able to target other creatures as well as "You". None of those examples was for that purpose. They were to illustrate that there are several powers with the range of personal and target: you that can also affect objects, which is what you asked for examples of.
Usurpator 12-05-05, 03:06 PM	None of these example are telling us that a "Target: You" is not a creature. They simply tell us that there is a collection of spells and powers that are able to target other creatures as well as "You". I think what NiQil tried to prove was that there is no need to include 'You' in those target entries he mentioned. They could just mention 'one willing creature' instead and work fine according to your reading of the rules. The fact that they mentioned 'You' means that 'You' is not included in 'one willing creature'. This is support for not including 'You' in 'one or more target creatures' as mentioned in the crawling tattoo text.
NiQil 12-05-05, 03:11 PM	I think what NiQil tried to prove was that there is no need to include 'You' in those target entries he mentioned. They could just mention 'one willing creature' instead and work fine according to your reading of the rules. The fact that they mentioned 'You' means that 'You' is not included in 'one willing creature'. This is support for not including 'You' in 'one or more target creatures' as mentioned in the crawling tattoo text. Exactly.
lonewolf 12-05-05, 03:47 PM	Sunwolf: August 11th That should read: lonewolf: August 11th ;)
Maraxus 12-05-05, 03:49 PM	Sniff, isn't it horrible to make a mercenary and then make him puplic for everyone to use? I think I'll make another one. We need spellcasters and 1st levels, I think. ... But both at once?
SauroGrenom 12-05-05, 03:59 PM	I think what NiQil tried to prove was that there is no need to include 'You' in those target entries he mentioned. They could just mention 'one willing creature' instead and work fine according to your reading of the rules. The fact that they mentioned 'You' means that 'You' is not included in 'one willing creature'. This is support for not including 'You' in 'one or more target creatures' as mentioned in the crawling tattoo text. This is another logical error. The inclusion of additional specific information does not logically demonstrate that the two criterion are necessarily mutually exclusive. Yes the inclusion of "You" along with "one willing creature" is unecessary if "one willing creature" includes "You". But, just because they are presented side by side does not prove that they are mutually exclusive from eachother. Just because a recepie calls for one can of noodle soup and one can of chicken soup doesn't mean that they cannot be both chicken noodle soup. If you think that the verbage used in the srd is a hold over from the 3.0 edition then do something about it. Write a message to WOTC and have them edit the psionics items section to update the language to agree with your opinion of what the rules intend and what the conventions of 3.5 are in your opinion. If you're successfull then we will change how we use Crawling Tattoo's in CoCo. We use the Core rules. We don't write the Core rules. If you want to write rules and can get WOTC to adopt them, more power to you. For our purposes we have to take the the rules at face value. Interpreting the intention of the writers/editors or the rules is folly and will lead us into messy terriroty.
Vathelokai 12-05-05, 04:12 PM	Sniff, isn't it horrible to make a mercenary and then make him puplic for everyone to use? I think I'll make another one. We need spellcasters and 1st levels, I think. ... But both at once? Just posted my first Merc... ecl3 illusionist. Already got 2 more in the works. :)
Usurpator 12-05-05, 04:20 PM	This is another logical error. It isn't, I said it lends support for my standpoint, I didn't say that it proves you are wrong. I don't see the logical error. Just because a recepie calls for one can of noodle soup and one can of chicken soup doesn't mean that they cannot be both chicken noodle soup. Your example is skewed. What you are saying is: "Just because a recipe calls for a can of chicken soup and a can of (unspecified) soup doesn't mean that the second can cannot contain chicken as well." That is true, but if someone would write that in a recipe, I would infer that thet either made an error, are crazy or have some special intention with phrasing it that way, wouldn't you? Interpreting the intention of the writers/editors or the rules is folly and will lead us into messy terriroty. I can keep repeating this, you cannot read *anything* without interpreting intention. If I conclude this discussion with "Yeah, sure, your right. You're ALWAYS right!", while my words may literally say I'm right, the context of the discussion and choice of words would indicate that I *don't* think you're right. Maybe a rules example: Your successful melee touch attack deals 1d6 points of electricity damage per caster level (maximum 5d6). When delivering the jolt, you gain a +3 bonus on attack rolls if the opponent is wearing metal armor (or made out of metal, carrying a lot of metal, or the like). When you read this literally, you will be unable that 'the jolt' refers to the melee touch attack, because you have to 'interpret that from the context'. Jolt is not a game defined term, and for creatures immune to electricity it won't be a 'jolt'. That doesn't mean it isn't delivered when you touch such a creature. Not using any interpretation of intention behind rules is a roads reading from nowhere to nothing, really. I have heard your 'we must read rules as literally' many times now, I know you think that, but I am not convinced, and I don't think I ever will be. If you want I can 'read your tactics literally' the next time I Pitlord one of your characters, but I think that will truly lead us into messy territory.
Vathelokai 12-05-05, 04:46 PM	Well, I've got to get off to work, but before I go... I don't really understand this most recent tangent. Using metaphors to describe your point never works; people just start to argue about metaphors, which is always pointless. We've already determined 1) The rules are poorly written 2) Some official ruling from the elders is needed. We seems to be arguing just to be argueing. As to Usurpators point about interpretation; It's true in an absolute sense, language does not work without interpretation, but trying to stay as literal as possible is a good thing. I've seen RAI abused beyond belief. It's very easy to misinterpret others intentions. Perhaps they intended personal to be banned, and just thought we would pick up on that. Maybe they removed a line about banning personal powers and forgot to remove the exception. There is no way for us to know, and most likely they don't remember either. Obviously it's one of the two, but there's no way to figure it out. Let us just wait for Cat.
Usurpator 12-05-05, 05:00 PM	We've already determined 1) The rules are poorly written 2) Some official ruling from the elders is needed. Agreed. As to Usurpators point about interpretation; It's true in an absolute sense, language does not work without interpretation, but trying to stay as literal as possible is a good thing. I've seen RAI abused beyond belief. It's very easy to misinterpret others intentions. Agreed.
SauroGrenom 12-05-05, 06:56 PM	If you want I can 'read your tactics literally' the next time I Pitlord one of your characters, but I think that will truly lead us into messy territory. Wow! I'll try to not get on your bad side anymore. We should wait for GM/elder decision I guess. In the mean time innocent till proven guilty.
Usurpator 12-05-05, 07:06 PM	Wow! I'll try to not get on your bad side anymore. Sorry. I had the weird feeling that it wouldn't come out as I meant it when I wrote it. Anyway, my last comment was to be interpreted as a very poignant example where reading something and taking it literally would be very, very bad and unproductive. It was certainly not meant as a threat. Although I 'interpret' from your sentence that you 'interpreted' it as a threat, even though it isn't one when you read it literally. :P (sorry, just couldn't resist)
NiQil 12-05-05, 07:10 PM	Sorry. I had the weird feeling that it wouldn't come out as I meant it when I wrote it. Anyway, my last comment was to be interpreted as a very poignant example where reading something and taking it literally would be very, very bad and unproductive. It was certainly not meant as a threat. Although I 'interpret' from your sentence that you 'interpreted' it as a threat, even though it isn't one when you read it literally. :P (sorry, just couldn't resist) :heehee
Scribelords 12-05-05, 08:09 PM	That should read: lonewolf: August 11th ;) That is should, and that it does now, thanks. Sunwolf is August 6th, by the way, heh heh.
Maraxus 12-06-05, 01:30 AM	Sorry. I had the weird feeling that it wouldn't come out as I meant it when I wrote it. Anyway, my last comment was to be interpreted as a very poignant example where reading something and taking it literally would be very, very bad and unproductive. It was certainly not meant as a threat. Although I 'interpret' from your sentence that you 'interpreted' it as a threat, even though it isn't one when you read it literally. :P (sorry, just couldn't resist) start request: for all user in Coco do: . user.language := pseudocode; . because pseudocode.non-ambiguous? == true; end. :rolleyes:
Dracazar 12-06-05, 05:54 AM	Just a question about scribe scroll CoCo rules says: "you do not have to have the caster level mentioned in the item's entry" about crafting. This means that a level 3 character may craft a scroll with a level 3 spell (instead of wait he become a level 5 character)? Thanks
Vathelokai 12-06-05, 06:04 AM	Just a question about scribe scroll CoCo rules says: "you do not have to have the caster level mentioned in the item's entry" about crafting. This means that a level 3 character may craft a scroll with a level 3 spell (instead of wait he become a level 5 character)? Thanks You still have to be able to cast the spell to make the scroll, so it wouldn't be possible. If you look at pearl of power, it says CL 17, but you only have to know the spells of 1st level to make a pearl of power lv 1. That's the type of thing that the 'ignore the caster level' rule was made for.
SauroGrenom 12-06-05, 10:41 AM	So does that mean that a 3rd level wizard could scribe a scroll of Magic Missile at CL5?
TelinArtho 12-06-05, 10:43 AM	No because you cannot scribe a scroll higher than your CL.
waywreth 12-06-05, 10:47 AM	Just to confirm my suspicions (and crush my dreams of building a Wilder with Astral Construct)... am I correct in assuming this feat is entirely useless until you know at least 2nd level powers? Expanded Knowledge: Add to your powers known one additional power of any level up to one level lower than the highest-level power you can manifest. You can choose any power, including powers from another discipline’s list or even from another class’s list.
lonewolf 12-06-05, 10:56 AM	Just to confirm my suspicions (and crush my dreams of building a Wilder with Astral Construct)... am I correct in assuming this feat is entirely useless until you know at least 2nd level powers? yes, youre right.
Huan 12-06-05, 11:54 AM	Just to confirm my suspicions (and crush my dreams of building a Wilder with Astral Construct)... am I correct in assuming this feat is entirely useless until you know at least 2nd level powers? Oh man, I bet some people here remember some of the pain Astral Construct brought way back when there wasn't a 1/3rd rule and the altered Powerstone pricing... You would see Lvl 7 and 9 constructs pounding poor little ECL 3's and such all the time.
waywreth 12-06-05, 12:06 PM	Well my plan was to take Wilder and burn a feat on Expanded Knowledge to get the power, then wild surge it and start with 5th level Astral constructs. My issue now is that I can't take Expanded Knowledge until 6th level which leaves me 3 "dead" levels for the character (and about 30 weeks of playing him to even get to level 6!). Unless I can think of a work around for it, I'm not going to bother. I could just play a Psion but I have one already so that's out.
lonewolf 12-06-05, 12:12 PM	Well my plan was to take Wilder and burn a feat on Expanded Knowledge to get the power, then wild surge it and start with 5th level Astral constructs. My issue now is that I can't take Expanded Knowledge until 6th level which leaves me 3 "dead" levels for the character (and about 30 weeks of playing him to even get to level 6!). Unless I can think of a work around for it, I'm not going to bother. I could just play a Psion but I have one already so that's out. You could spend 12 credits and simply start at ECL6.
Dracazar 12-06-05, 12:34 PM	My issue now is that I can't take Expanded Knowledge until 6th level which leaves me 3 "dead" levels for the character (and about 30 weeks of playing him to even get to level 6!). Why you need to be 6th level? EXPANDED KNOWLEDGE Prerequisites: Manifester level 3rd. You can't take it at 3rd level?
waywreth 12-06-05, 12:51 PM	Why you need to be 6th level? EXPANDED KNOWLEDGE Prerequisites: Manifester level 3rd. You can't take it at 3rd level? You can't take it at 3rd level as a Wilder because you only have access to 1st level powers. The feat specifically says you get a new power one level below your max and 1-1=0.
SauroGrenom 12-06-05, 01:47 PM	No because you cannot scribe a scroll higher than your CL. But I thought we were ignoring the CL requirements on crafting magical items.
Cerebus13 12-06-05, 01:52 PM	But I thought we were ignoring the CL requirements on crafting magical items.We ignore the CL requirement that is listed at the bottom of magical items in the SRD, such as: Belt, Monk’s This simple rope belt, when wrapped around a character’s waist, confers great ability in unarmed combat. The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the belt lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus. Moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Craft Wondrous Item, righteous might or transformation; Price 13,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.So at level 9 a cleric could craft a Monk's Belt. This was done because the CL requirements are most magical items was rather nonsense and unbalanced for various items. Scrolls on the other hand are easy to calculate CL for....the spell you scribe determines the CL. In addition, allowing scrolls with CLs way over the head of the scriber leads to quick abuse of cheap and powerful expendable items.
lonewolf 12-06-05, 01:54 PM	Does striking at an illusion with only audible and olfactory components count as interacting with it for the purpose of beeing able to do a will save? If not, what does?
Usurpator 12-06-05, 01:59 PM	Does striking at an illusion with only audible and olfactory components count as interacting with it for the purpose of beeing able to do a will save? If not, what does? Sure it does. Anything that would elicit some response from the illusion counts as interaction and thus give a Will save.
Caterane 12-06-05, 03:49 PM	@all: There's a new Add-On Proposal in the Reputation thread. Come and visit!
Pittbull 12-06-05, 04:32 PM	@all: I had some time to think about the Special Event system during my trip to Bavaria. However, it wasn't me who came up with it. My girlfriend Jenny - who definately deserves mentioning here - did most of the work (even though she had no idea about the CoCo, or D&D even). She sat down for some hours, I refined it, and this is what we both came up with... Home, sweet home Bavaria! I hope you enjoyed the trip! Next time, you come near to my house, just send me a PM. BTW, I like this idea, it gives us more variaties to earn money...
Snommelp 12-06-05, 04:38 PM	A German named Jenny... Joe is confused... I like the Bounty Mission idea. Look out, world, here comes Duke Grik! :D
NiQil 12-06-05, 06:55 PM	Do crossbows count as mostly metal or mostly wood for the purposes of crafting them from special materials like darkwood or mithral?
Macbrea 12-06-05, 07:58 PM	Did we ever decide on weither natural weapons count for qualifying for feats that required improved unarmed attack? Also, does the bonus hit dice increase for druid increase an animals size? Basicly, I am trying to figure out what feat to add to Kisandra. If Natural weapons count then the natural is deflect arrows. Otherwise, I will have to stare at it for awhile.
TheMagister 12-06-05, 08:07 PM	Lady Sdentch of the Gladius Highlands. (shakes head) That's just funny. Or atrocious. Or both. TM
Macbrea 12-06-05, 08:18 PM	FAQ answered my size question. Druids companions don't grow in size.
Macbrea 12-06-05, 09:58 PM	When figuring out specific armor for unusual mounts what exacty is doubled? Example: Rhino hide armor (5,165gp) is +2 hide armor with Rhino hide ability ..Hide................ 15gp +Masterwork.......150gp +Magical (+2) ...4000gp +Rhino Hide Ab...1000gp Total: 5,165 gps To make that Rhino Hide barding for a small creature I would do that following? ..Hide................ 30gp +Masterwork.......150gp +Magical (+2) ...4000gp +Rhino Hide Ab...1000gp Total: 5,180 gps Would that cost any credits? Also, for credits might we be able to add Rhino Hide ability to other armors? Such as: ..Breastplate........200 gp +Mithril .............4000 gp +Magical (+2) ....4000 gp +Rhino Hide Ab....1000 gp Rhino Hide Reinforced Mithril Breastplate +2 Total: 9,200 gps and 5 o Based on: custom permanent items based on the ones in the books Is this the correct way in which this would be done?
NiQil 12-07-05, 12:32 AM	When expending your psionic focus to use a feat....can you use multiple feats with the same single expenditure of psionic focus? As an example, could you expend your psionic focus a single time and use both Psionic Weapon and Deep Impact at the same time with that single expenditure of focus? Or would it require a seperate expenditure for each feat? Also, when attempting to regain psionic focus, you must have a power point reserve in order to be able to do so. Do the 2/3 of power points that we are not allowed to use in the arena count for this? In other words, if someone has used all of the power points that they are allowed to in the arena, bringing their arena-usable power points to 0, can they still attempt to regain psionic focus?
Iced 12-07-05, 03:06 AM	you can't use two feats requiring psionic focus at once.
Iced 12-07-05, 03:07 AM	When figuring out specific armor for unusual mounts what exacty is doubled? Example: Rhino hide armor (5,165gp) is +2 hide armor with Rhino hide ability ..Hide................ 15gp +Masterwork.......150gp +Magical (+2) ...4000gp +Rhino Hide Ab...1000gp Total: 5,165 gps To make that Rhino Hide barding for a small creature I would do that following? ..Hide................ 30gp +Masterwork.......150gp +Magical (+2) ...4000gp +Rhino Hide Ab...1000gp Total: 5,180 gps Would that cost any credits? Also, for credits might we be able to add Rhino Hide ability to other armors? Such as: ..Breastplate........200 gp +Mithril .............4000 gp +Magical (+2) ....4000 gp +Rhino Hide Ab....1000 gp Rhino Hide Reinforced Mithril Breastplate +2 Total: 9,200 gps and 5 o Based on: custom permanent items based on the ones in the books Is this the correct way in which this would be done? mithril is a metal, rhino hide is well.. rhino hide. They're two different materials, they can't be combined into one armor.
Iced 12-07-05, 03:08 AM	Am I allowed to pick up improved natural attack for a monk?
Maraxus 12-07-05, 03:41 AM	@Macbrea: I think you calculated the mounts rhino hide right. Only the base price is doubled. Rhino hide does say nothing about that the armor must be for a small or medium sized humanoid, so this should cost nothing more. You may pay 15° to get the right to buy custom permanent items not related to any category above but still calculatable. Since this category opens a broad variety of freely customized items, any item that falls into this category needs to be closely looked upon. This needs approval from the GM! Example: +2 keen Flametongue... I would say this one aplies to mithral breatplate of the Rhino - if anything. @Iced: This one again... Yes, I think that it was once for all decided, that you can take IMA as a monk, in an elders pool, I think.
Myrridin 12-07-05, 09:58 AM	Am I allowed to pick up improved natural attack for a monk? I believe according to the last Sage ruling that this was allowed. Might want to check around a little more though.
Macbrea 12-07-05, 09:59 AM	Interesting economics of Masterwork tools. Assuming a 50/50 win/loss record. Exp Level Earned total 3200 3 6 gp 6 gp 3500 3 6 gp 12 gp 4400 3 6 gp 18 gp 4700 3 6 gp 24 gp 5600 3 6 gp 30 gp 5900 3 6 gp 36 gp 6800 4 8 gp 44 gp 7200 4 8 gp 52 gp 8400 4 8 gp 60 gp 8800 4 8 gp 68 gp 10000 4 8 gp 76 gp 10500 5 10 gp 86 gp 12000 5 10 gp 96 gp 12500 5 10 gp 106 gp 14000 5 10 gp 116 gp 14500 5 10 gp 126 gp 16000 6 12 gp 138 gp It would appear unless you have spare cash sitting around those masterwork instruments might not really be worth it.
Snommelp 12-07-05, 10:07 AM	Random questions (or are they?): 1) If you get Energy Resistance from two sources to the same type of energy, do the resistances stack? 2) Some templates grant abilities according to HD. It doesn't specifically say racial hit dice, but it seems implied. Would these abilities be granted through class HD? 3) If a player were to make a character with conflicting alignment requirements (celestial succubus, half-fiendish Hound Archon, half-celestial fiendish creature, etc.), how would that player decide on an alignment? Would he have to pay credits for the alignment no matter what?
lonewolf 12-07-05, 10:17 AM	Random questions (or are they?): 1) If you get Energy Resistance from two sources to the same type of energy, do the resistances stack? 2) Some templates grant abilities according to HD. It doesn't specifically say racial hit dice, but it seems implied. Would these abilities be granted through class HD? 3) If a player were to make a character with conflicting alignment requirements (celestial succubus, half-fiendish Hound Archon, half-celestial fiendish creature, etc.), how would that player decide on an alignment? Would he have to pay credits for the alignment no matter what? 1. no 2. yes, class hitdice count unless specifically mentioned otherwise 3. you can add half-celestial only to a non-evil creature and so on.
SauroGrenom 12-07-05, 10:21 AM	When expending your psionic focus to use a feat....can you use multiple feats with the same single expenditure of psionic focus? As an example, could you expend your psionic focus a single time and use both Psionic Weapon and Deep Impact at the same time with that single expenditure of focus? Or would it require a seperate expenditure for each feat? Also, when attempting to regain psionic focus, you must have a power point reserve in order to be able to do so. Do the 2/3 of power points that we are not allowed to use in the arena count for this? In other words, if someone has used all of the power points that they are allowed to in the arena, bringing their arena-usable power points to 0, can they still attempt to regain psionic focus? There is an epic feat that allows you to power two simultanious effects with a single expenditure of psionic focus. For the CoCo that is out of reach. It is my understanding that that is the only way that you can power more than one feat at a time that requires expending focus. It is also my understanding that you can regain psionic focus even if you have expended all your CoCo allowed pp. You still have a pp reserve, so you should be able to regain focus. That is unless you only have 1pp, then spending that pp in the Arena will prevent you from having the ability to refocus.
Macbrea 12-07-05, 10:25 AM	1. no Are you sure on that one? Resistance To Energy A creature with resistance to energy has the ability (usually extraordinary) to ignore some damage of a certain type each round, but it does not have total immunity. Each resistance ability is defined by what energy type it resists and how many points of damage are resisted. It doesn’t matter whether the damage has a mundane or magical source. When resistance completely negates the damage from an energy attack, the attack does not disrupt a spell. This resistance does not stack with the resistance that a spell might provide. If the source of it was from two seperate templates they are added to the template. The character. This is because in both cases they are not a spell.
Snommelp 12-07-05, 10:27 AM	3. you can add half-celestial only to a non-evil creature and so on.So in other words I'll have to pay credits to make my paradoxical outsider, to make his fiendish template non-evil before adding the half-celestial template. Which will of course have to be approved, and will be added to the credits I need to pay to start him at EL 7... that's 21 credits and permission to make a character that I only wanted to make for shock value. No thanks. Maybe when I have as may credits as Huan, I'll do it.
Snommelp 12-07-05, 10:28 AM	Are you sure on that one? If the source of it was from two seperate templates they are added to the template. The character. This is because in both cases they are not a spell. I was thinking specifically templates, but to be fair, my question was worded to include any source.
lonewolf 12-07-05, 10:40 AM	Are you sure on that one? If the source of it was from two seperate templates they are added to the template. The character. This is because in both cases they are not a spell. Yes Im pretty sure about it. You´d have two instances of the energy resistance, but only the higher one counts. Its the same as with DR or SR. But I leave it to someone with better rule-knowledge to quote the necessary part out of the SRD.
Begferdeth 12-07-05, 11:07 AM	I like this new Reputation idea... it will actually give me something to send my characters on quests for :) Too bad they both are turning out to be failures, and wont be able to get any benefit from it...
Ayrynthyn 12-07-05, 11:26 AM	Durring the fight i pitlorded this week, i came across something that struck me odd. There was some discussion in the FotW thread, but my request for a source it seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle. So i represent it here... 1) Casting from a scroll while invisible... From Invisibility - "If the recipient is a creature carrying gear, that vanishes, too." From Scroll - "Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll." i initially said No, but sunwolf came back with .... Please check other fights -- here are are few examples of casting from a scroll while invisible: Harvester casts fly from scroll while invisible: in round 2 Aranor casts see invisiblity from scroll while invisible in round 2 ...the responses in the FotW were all "you can see your own possesions", but I'm really looking for a Cite or a Source on this, cause i know there's no way my DM in my PnP will let this fly. Can anyone point me in the right direction??
Macbrea 12-07-05, 11:35 AM	By the way.. the templates themselves have the answer to the resistance question. "If the base creature already has one or more of these special qualities, use the better value." Means if both give Resistance to Cold 10. You get to choose the better value.
Macbrea 12-07-05, 11:45 AM	Durring the fight i pitlorded this week, i came across something that struck me odd. There was some discussion in the FotW thread, but my request for a source it seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle. So i represent it here... 1) Casting from a scroll while invisible... i initially said No, but sunwolf came back with .... ...the responses in the FotW were all "you can see your own possesions", but I'm really looking for a Cite or a Source on this, cause i know there's no way my DM in my PnP will let this fly. Can anyone point me in the right direction?? From Rules of the game There, Not there (part one) Although the rules don't specifically say so, assume that a creature using a magical invisibility effect is invisible to others but not to itself. This helps avoid arguments about exactly what an invisible creature can do without a penalty. Even if you assume an invisible creature can see itself, it still does not cast a shadow or a reflection (or at least not one most people could notice; see Part Two). Therefore, you are immune to your own invisibility and may interact with your own items freely. Since, we do play with the Rules of the Game articles. We are allowed to use scrolls while invisible.
NiQil 12-07-05, 11:45 AM	@ RageBunny First off...welcome. Please make sure and check out the Rules of Gladius thread in regards to your character. Your character consists of material that is not allowed here....starting with the warforged race. Please check the Rules thread for allowed material.
Macbrea 12-07-05, 11:54 AM	For those individuals more concerned with the rules that govern invisibility, rather then the "Rules of the Game" suggestion. Invisibility is Illusion (Glamor) Illusion Illusion spells deceive the senses or minds of others. They cause people to see things that are not there, not see things that are there, hear phantom noises, or remember things that never happened. Glamor A glamer spell changes a subject’s sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear. Because, you are unable to deceive yourself with an illusion. You are unable to change your sensory input with the glamer effect. Therefore, you are immune to your own illusions.
Ayrynthyn 12-07-05, 12:09 PM	Perfect!! :D Thanks
Maraxus 12-07-05, 12:12 PM	Hiho. I guess metamagic rods fall under te 1/3 rule, too. Do you think one could ask for custom metamagic rods, that only modify one spell per day and cost 1/3 gp? (And how many credits would that be? I guess 15, so probably out of reach...)
SoulLord 12-07-05, 01:30 PM	Quick theoretical question.... Since Evard's Black tentacles can spring even from water or pretty much any surface. Can they spring from the surface of a solid fog spell for as long as the solid fog spell lasts or the duration of the tentacles runs out?
Macbrea 12-07-05, 01:45 PM	I would say no. "seem to spring forth from the earth, floor, or whatever surface is underfoot—including water" Solid fog only impedes movement it doesn't allow you to walk upon it. It isn't actually solid enough to stop a person from moving through it.
SoulLord 12-07-05, 01:54 PM	I would say no. "seem to spring forth from the earth, floor, or whatever surface is underfoot—including water" Solid fog only impedes movement it doesn't allow you to walk upon it. It isn't actually solid enough to stop a person from moving through it. Well it's more solid than water.
Usurpator 12-07-05, 02:10 PM	It's not an 'underfoot surface'.
SoulLord 12-07-05, 02:13 PM	It's not an 'underfoot surface'. underfoot = merriam webster definition below, at, or before one's feet <warm sand underfoot> so the solid fog would be underfoot from the tentacles.
Usurpator 12-07-05, 02:44 PM	underfoot = merriam webster definition below, at, or before one's feet <warm sand underfoot> so the solid fog would be underfoot from the tentacles. Do we need to have the literal text vs. intention discussion again? 'There is a lot of fog underfoot' is nonsense english. Next thing you know you start claiming that something has to be actually underfoot to cast tentacles on, meaning that creatures without feet cannot cast tentacles. To me Solid Fog is not an 'underfoot surface' as the spell intended. The body of a prone opponent at your feet is not an 'underfoot surface' as far as the spell intends as well, even though it may literally/technically be that way. I know my explanation above is not a hard fact and just my humble opinion, but the fact that you are asking the question, even though the literal text clearly allows it as you pointed out, should give you some thought.
SoulLord 12-07-05, 03:05 PM	ok removing literal text from the argument the thing is the tentacles can sprung from water. So do you consider that a Solid Fog is a less valid surface than water because it's less solid?
Usurpator 12-07-05, 03:12 PM	ok removing literal text from the argument the thing is the tentacles can sprung from water. So do you consider that a Solid Fog is a less valid surface than water because it's less solid? Not really, my train of thought is roughly as follows: Normally only solid surfaces that are not creatures are ok for spellcasting that are cast on an area/squares (like walls). In this case Evard's makes and exception for liquid surfaces (like water). It doesn't make an exception for gaseous things or living things, so I would not allow it. To be honest, in a regular game it would only allow it to be cast on a watery surface if there is a solid surface directly beneath it. What would happen if you can Black Tentacles on a rapid stream, roiling sea or a waterfall? Free-floating tentacles grabbing things? Where do they get the leverage? Do the tentacles split as the stream splits? Do they keep hovering ghost-like over the water? I personally think the spell is badly worded (where have we seen that before). EDIT: I guess what they meant was that if there is a shallow bit of water, the tentacles can still spring from the surface. Since deep water is usually not 'underfoot' (you would sink).
SoulLord 12-07-05, 03:18 PM	*ponders on the arguments presented* True no matter how solid , solid fog is it's still a gaseous effect. oh well back to the research lab.
Myrridin 12-07-05, 03:46 PM	Daeren Stronghammer completes his quest to find a Dragonbane Longspear+1 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=7768308#post7768308) Congratulations Telin...I think next time I'll need to see about making the quest harder, as you barely broke a sweat in there.
Maraxus 12-07-05, 05:41 PM	Wow, I'm just reading that your gladiator may not have an ally with a CR higher then the max of your ECL-4 and 1. So, no heavy warhorses befor level 6. ... Or no Level 2 mercs before level 6. Even more - except for first level mercenaries, they are all about to fight opponents 4 levels higher. I wrote a merc with "suicidal tendencies", but it looks, like they all have this. ;) Another thing: what about mounted mercs? I guess, that you only pay the merc but get xp/gp penalties for him and his mount, right?
Vathelokai 12-07-05, 05:52 PM	Another thing: what about mounted mercs? I guess, that you only pay the merc but get xp/gp penalties for him and his mount, right?Mercs are only allowed class allies, so if you want them mounted, you have to provide the horse yourself, and it counts against your ally cap and xp/gp normaly. I think we should lower it to ECL-2, or we might not see many mercs in the arena.
Cerebus13 12-07-05, 07:06 PM	Mercs are only allowed class allies, so if you want them mounted, you have to provide the horse yourself, and it counts against your ally cap and xp/gp normaly. I think we should lower it to ECL-2, or we might not see many mercs in the arena.The rule for allies is: If the ally only has a Challenge Rating then the max CR you can have is your ECL-4. However, if you ally has an ECL (such as a cohort or somesuch), then the max ECL available is your ECL-2. Since mercs are essentially characters I believe the rule of ECL-2 applies.
Luni 12-07-05, 07:24 PM	Quick question: Note: A defender wearing spiked gauntlets can’t be disarmed. A defender using a weapon attached to a locked gauntlet gets a +10 bonus to resist being disarmed. Does this mean A) Spiked Gauntlets can't be disarmed. OR B) Wearing Spiked Gauntlets cause all disarm attempts to fail no matter what they are tryign to disarm.
Sindorin 12-07-05, 07:33 PM	If you are wearing a spiked gauntlet, it can't be ripped off of your hand. if you are holding a sword in a hand that has a spiked gauntlet clothing it, the sword can be disarmed from your hand, but the gauntlet is a glove and cannot be disarmed.
Macbrea 12-08-05, 11:20 AM	When an animal companion goes from 3hd to 5hd does it get a stat increase as per any other creature that's HD goes up? And if so, are you prevented from putting that in Intelligence because it would change the companions type from animal to magic beast? This is because animals can only have an intelligence of 1 or 2. While magic beasts are animals with intelligence scores of 2 or higher.
Warclone 12-08-05, 11:44 AM	In my tabletop game my friends are readying actions to charge and readying actions to move 30ft and stuff like that, but I keep telling them the most you can move as a readied action is 5ft. But looking at the rules, I cant find where it says that. I'm almost certain this is the case however. Can someone give me a link or a page in the PHB/DMG where it says you can't move more than 5ft as a readied action?
Huan 12-08-05, 11:55 AM	In my tabletop game my friends are readying actions to charge and readying actions to move 30ft and stuff like that, but I keep telling them the most you can move as a readied action is 5ft. But looking at the rules, I cant find where it says that. I'm almost certain this is the case however. Can someone give me a link or a page in the PHB/DMG where it says you can't move more than 5ft as a readied action? Your friends should visit here so they can get the rules beaten into them (in a courteous manner, of course ;) ). You certainly CANNOT ready to charge as charging is a full-round action. They can actually ready to move 30 ft (assuming 30 ft is their base speed), but in that case they cannot take the free 5 ft move during readying, Open your PHB (check the index for 'Ready') to the Combat section or look in the Combat II section of the SRD for the complete section on Readying: READY The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so). Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action. You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.
Cerebus13 12-08-05, 11:56 AM	Edit: Huan beat me to the punch. Keep in mind however, that the CoCo employs a LOT of houserules...so always refer to the books and SRD first for any official rules.
Sindorin 12-08-05, 12:02 PM	We should all get together and put together our own version of the core rulebooks. They would be clear, easy to understand, and then we could make them aerodynamic so they would be throwable.
Macbrea 12-08-05, 12:09 PM	What your friends are playing with is Partial Charge (3.0) rules. In 3.5 they choose to get rid of the Partial charge as it really confused combat.
Warclone 12-08-05, 12:13 PM	Ah, I see. Yeah, they said they could move their move and still attack because a zombie could do it and a zombie only gets a standard action.
Mal-2 12-08-05, 12:19 PM	Ah, I see. Yeah, they said they could move their move and still attack because a zombie could do it and a zombie only gets a standard action. That's because Zombies got thier own special rule in the Charge section: If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn. Okay, technically that's not just for zombies, but they're probably the most common place it gets used.
Cerebus13 12-08-05, 12:24 PM	That's because Zombies got thier own special rule in the Charge section: Okay, technically that's not just for zombies, but they're probably the most common place it gets used.This can lead to odd readied actions such as: Player A reduces them self to 0 hp so that they are considered disabled and can only make a single standard/move action per round. Player A then readies a charge, due to special charge rules, against their opponent. Obviously this would be stupid and doomed to failure since a sneeze would knock this character unconscious, but it is a wierd situation with this special case for Charge.
Warclone 12-08-05, 12:28 PM	I have a proposal Anyone else think its cheesy with all the True Neutral people running around? Sure, if you're a druid dedicated to balance or somthing, thats fine. But why do I have to sacrifice charcter continuity and roleplay for combat prowess? I dont want someone to cast protection from X on me, so I choose true neutral and resign my character to being a hollow sham just so he can win more arena fights. Power over roleplay. Must we make this decision? I propose: Have all true neutral people pick a single axis (evil, good, law, or neutral) to be vulnerable to in order to equalize the playing field. Or if you don't want that, you could always abolish protection from X. But, for the sake of roleplay and non-munchinkism, I think somthing should be done to even the playing field.
lonewolf 12-08-05, 12:28 PM	or the party wizard could cast slow on them :rolleyes:
Cerebus13 12-08-05, 12:41 PM	I have a proposal Anyone else think its cheesy with all the True Neutral people running around? Sure, if you're a druid dedicated to balance or somthing, thats fine. But why do I have to sacrifice charcter continuity and roleplay for combat prowess? I dont want someone to cast protection from X on me, so I choose true neutral and resign my character to being a hollow sham just so he can win more arena fights. Power over roleplay. Must we make this decision? I propose: Have all true neutral people pick a single axis (evil, good, law, or neutral) to be vulnerable to in order to equalize the playing field. Or if you don't want that, you could always abolish protection from X. But, for the sake of roleplay and non-munchinkism, I think somthing should be done to even the playing field.Protection from <align> is a mere +2 Deflection AC and +2 Saves vs. the particular alignment you chose. The +2 Deflection AC can be replicated by a potion of Shield of Faith, and the +2 to Saves will only affect spellcasters/psionics-users that rely on abilities even requiring saving throws. Why should we add another houserule to the already growing stack of houserules for the sake of a level 1 spell?
Papapeperoni 12-08-05, 02:26 PM	No roleplaying here? Ah well, greetings all, I'm here with my character Kendal Aphos and I hope to see you in the arena soon! --Papapeperoni, God of Pizza's
Macbrea 12-08-05, 03:41 PM	Taverns actually our rules discussion chat. The guilds do most of the rolelpaying as the general roleplaying thread seems to have faded away.
NightBreeze 12-08-05, 04:57 PM	Hi, i'm the newest here! Just posted my character, please control if everything is ok. Also if you have any suggestions i'm all ears.
Vathelokai 12-08-05, 05:24 PM	Hi, i'm the newest here! Just posted my character, please control if everything is ok. Also if you have any suggestions i'm all ears. Man, those LA adjustments hurt... I think your inertial barier counts as an armor bonus. Your skills still say [4ftr]. You forgot your flurry of blows. Pretty sure your potions of mage armor don't stack with inertial armor. The 'past expenditures' sblock won't open for us people who use firefox browser... you can fix it by ending all [/font] and [/color] before the sblock starts, and restarting them inside the sblock. Buy potions of prot. chaos to protect against summoned creatures (especially those bat swarms...), and a tatoo of synesthete to protect against blindness. An universal solvent is always a good purchase as well.. And Oh yeah, Welcome to Core Coliseum :D
Maraxus 12-08-05, 05:28 PM	@NightBreeze: Missing "/" at the saves. Wrong silver-notes in the skills Touch AC is 20. Inertial armor works against incorporeal touch attacks, but not generally on all touch attacks. Attacks: List your crossbow and flurry of blows-attacks, please. Potions: Potions cost 50*spell level*caster level. Plus you probably don't want mage armor potions - does not stack with inertial armor. Suggestion: Dodge is a nice feat but I think you need weapon finesse much more.
NightBreeze 12-08-05, 05:32 PM	@Maraxus: i have a bab +0, so no weapon finesse form me, srry i bought the mage's armor so i suppose i'll have to keep them(didn't know it doesnt stack) @Vathelokai Just trying a funny build. I know that is horrible to have only one class level but the character is cool. The ac is pretty hi.
Snommelp 12-08-05, 05:45 PM	i bought the mage's armor so i suppose i'll have to keep them(didn't know it doesnt stack) Not a problem; sales aren't final until after your first fight. Refund to you heart's content! And even after your first fight, you can normally sell back unused items for full price (although apparently you have to get permission now... when did that happen?).
Auorix 12-08-05, 05:45 PM	I am trying to get the feel of this thing here so I can post a char and get into some matches/guilds/role playing. I have a few questions. When making my char does all the information have to come from the Core books? PHB/DMG/MM If we are not limited to just core books, what are our limitations? 3rd party stuff allowed? Is there any kind of mentor available that can get me on my feet and moving in the right direction? Thanks ahead of time, hope to make my Wiz Vienemen here soon and interact with some of you.
NightBreeze 12-08-05, 05:52 PM	anyway i suppose i'll have to do something about flying enemies......but don't know what......
Sindorin 12-08-05, 05:57 PM	I am trying to get the feel of this thing here so I can post a char and get into some matches/guilds/role playing. I have a few questions. When making my char does all the information have to come from the Core books? PHB/DMG/MM If we are not limited to just core books, what are our limitations? 3rd party stuff allowed? Is there any kind of mentor available that can get me on my feet and moving in the right direction? Thanks ahead of time, hope to make my Wiz Vienemen here soon and interact with some of you. You're basically correct - Core Rulebooks only (3.5) as well as the Expanded Psionics Handbook (because it is in the SRD) and sections from Complete Divine that also show up on the SRD. My AIM is Varius81 if you have any questions, especially wizard-related ones... and... be sure to check out The Arcane Order.
Mal-2 12-08-05, 05:58 PM	And even after your first fight, you can normally sell back unused items for full price (although apparently you have to get permission now... when did that happen?). The Rules thread says you sell things back at 1/2 market value. I'm not sure when it might have changed, or if it makes any difference if an item was used in a fight or not. The simple fact that you have something listed on your sheet may make your opponent change tactics. For example, if I see that someone owns a Gem of True Seeing, I'm not going to write tactics based on invisibility and illusions. Should that person be allowed to turn around and get a full refund for his Gem later, even if he never actually used it?
lonewolf 12-08-05, 06:03 PM	I am trying to get the feel of this thing here so I can post a char and get into some matches/guilds/role playing. I have a few questions. Hi there and welcome! although im here only for 2 weeks now i hope that I can answer your questions: When making my char does all the information have to come from the Core books? PHB/DMG/MM If we are not limited to just core books, what are our limitations? 3rd party stuff allowed? I really think the first thing to do is reading the FAQ, at least partly. Simply put, everything from the Core books + the Expanded Psionic Handbook are allowed sources, nothing else. (and even there are a few exceptions) Is there any kind of mentor available that can get me on my feet and moving in the right direction? Thanks ahead of time, hope to make my Wiz Vienemen here soon and interact with some of you. Basically the FAQ is very informative, but feel free to ask any questions here in the tavern.
Mal-2 12-08-05, 06:06 PM	When making my char does all the information have to come from the Core books? PHB/DMG/MM If we are not limited to just core books, what are our limitations? 3rd party stuff allowed? Welcome Auorix, The best place to get started is the Gladius Quickstart Guide. The Rules Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=448520) has all of the details on what books we can use, and all of the character creation and arena information. You'll probably want to read up through at least the Arena Combat II post before you finalize your character.
NiQil 12-08-05, 06:12 PM	You're basically correct - Core Rulebooks only (3.5) as well as the Expanded Psionics Handbook (because it is in the SRD) and sections from Complete Divine that also show up on the SRD. My AIM is Varius81 if you have any questions, especially wizard-related ones... and... be sure to check out The Arcane Order. This is incorrect. Complete Divine is not a part of the SRD, and is not allowed here. The divine section of the SRD is allowed, and is taken from Deities and Demigods. Yes, much of the material was reprinted in Complete Divine, but that rulebook is not a valid source here.
NiQil 12-08-05, 06:19 PM	The Rules thread says you sell things back at 1/2 market value. I'm not sure when it might have changed, or if it makes any difference if an item was used in a fight or not. The simple fact that you have something listed on your sheet may make your opponent change tactics. For example, if I see that someone owns a Gem of True Seeing, I'm not going to write tactics based on invisibility and illusions. Should that person be allowed to turn around and get a full refund for his Gem later, even if he never actually used it? In the past, Snommelp is correct in that permission was never needed. However, the situation you are describing is exactly what happened....a character purchased an item, challenged someone with that item on their character sheet, which altered the tactics of the person that was challenged, who proceeded to lose the fight as a result. The first player then refunded the item, and has been thrown in prison for doing so at full price....and that is where the permission issue came up. There is no rule anywhere that I know of that requires permission....however there is also no rule I know of that allows refunding at all. So methinks that will be up to Cat or LLMC (if he ever comes back and updates the Prison, since that is his domain).
Usurpator 12-08-05, 06:43 PM	The Rules thread says you sell things back at 1/2 market value. I'm not sure when it might have changed, or if it makes any difference if an item was used in a fight or not. The simple fact that you have something listed on your sheet may make your opponent change tactics. For example, if I see that someone owns a Gem of True Seeing, I'm not going to write tactics based on invisibility and illusions. Should that person be allowed to turn around and get a full refund for his Gem later, even if he never actually used it? I agree totally. For example: Nexa bought a potion of invisibility at ECL 3 purely for the psychological threat factor. Never planned on using it, and haven't used it yet, but did see many tactics that mixed in all kinds of contingencies to counter the possibility. Additionally, expendables are never 'used' until they are actually expended, so refunding them for full price will encourage use of them even more. And they're already a powerful influence now. Most of my characters would love to have a cache of 'just in case' items that they could just sell when they wanted to buy something else or the items are no longer useful at the current ECL.
Warclone 12-08-05, 07:06 PM	OK, I have been arguing with my friend over email for the past 5 hours over readying a charge action in 3.5. Given his latest argument, I can't specifically prove that he is wrong. Could someone please give me some help here, in the name of correct interpretations of the rules everywhere? In the online SRD it says under charge that if you are restricted to a standard action or a move action then you can still make a charge, but you can only move up to one times your speed, as opposed to up to two times your speed as normal. When you ready an action you are restricted to making a standard action (the move action can include a five foot step). Hence you can make a charge which is a standard action. The partial charge is gone, along with it's counterpart, the partial action. All "partial charges" are gone, they now use the above meantioned rule... unless as perhaps happened with zombies, the writer also was confused and wanted to be certain it could indeed charge, and therefore he wrote in a redundant extraordanary ability. " If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn." (http://d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge) You are not restricted to take only a standard action or move action on your turn. You are restricted to taking only a standard actino or move action on your readied action. The unequivocal truth of of this can be found in the logical statement "TURN" != "READIED ACTION" Ask anyone dude, nobody interprets that you can charge as a readied action. You can ready an action to charge if you are at 0HP, if you are slowed, or if you are a zombie. "You are not restricted to take only a standard action or move action on your turn. " You are if you ready an action.... "You are restricted to taking only a standard actino or move action on your readied action. " And, does not the readied action happen on your turn? Are you alleging that it's a move action to ready an action? "The unequivocal truth of of this can be found in the logical statement "TURN" != "READIED ACTION" " Making a statement of opinon and espousing it as fact does not your opinion fact make. "Ask anyone dude, nobody interprets that you can charge as a readied action. " I have, duude. For one, I so interpret it. For another, so have all the other groups I've played with that it's come up in... including this group, with the exception of you. Of course, they also didn't necessarily think they knew, however that was the original interpretation. ~_^ I would like to start off by saying this issue itself is not a big deal to me, and I would be happy to play under a houserule to any effect regarding this. But I have a few spare moments and as I have been falsly accused of being incorrect I wish to defend myself. I am sorry I did not take the time that lawyers do in proofing my statements against responses such as yours, it is usually not neccisary when when both parties are trying to reach a common goal. You can't be blamed for thinking you can ready a charge initially, but your response in light of my previous email and your informed, willful use of logical fallacies and arguing techniques that would be laughed out of any debate class is belittling and I find it mildly offensive. YOUR QUOTE: "And, does not the readied action happen on your turn?" QUOTE FROM SRD: "The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. " CONCLUSION: The readied action does not happen on your turn. MY PREVIOUS AND CORRECT ASSERTION ACCOUNTING FOR THE ABOVE: You are not restricted to take only a standard action or move action on your turn when you ready an action. QUOTE FROM SRD REGARDING CHARGING AS A STANDARD ACTION: "You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn." SUBSEQUENT CONCLUSION ACCOUNTING FOR THE ABOVE: You cannot ready a charge action. Note that I have quoted the rules three times now and drawn my conclusions from those quotes, while you have merely spouted your interpretations. In your response, please include factual information instead of your random and philosophical interpretations of the rules with nothing to back them up other than your word. It's not a big deal to me either, really. You're not going to see my character charging. "YOUR QUOTE: "And, does not the readied action happen on your turn?" QUOTE FROM SRD: "The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. " CONCLUSION: The readied action does not happen on your turn." Conclusion accepted. "You are not restricted to take only a standard action or move action on your turn when you ready an action. " Conclusion refuted. You move your initiative order, when you take your readied action that becomes your new "turn". With the additional restriction that you can only take a standard action during that new turn. "willful use of logical fallacies and arguing techniques that would be laughed out of any debate class is belittling and I find it mildly offensive. " Well, I apologize for any offense taken, none was meant. However I still stick behind my assertion that you are the using a logical fallacy, and indeed, you're attempting misdirection by so accusing me. Example: "MY PREVIOUS AND CORRECT ASSERTION ACCOUNTING FOR THE ABOVE:" You state your opinion, and then allege that your opinion is fact. You're not debating, you're simply stating opinion as fact and trying to make me believe that it IS fact. I, on the other hand, stated my opinion, and attempted to give supporting evidence. I do say that it's interesting. "QUOTE FROM SRD REGARDING CHARGING AS A STANDARD ACTION: "You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn." Yup. I believe I looked that quote up and was using that to support my opinion. SUBSEQUENT CONCLUSION ACCOUNTING FOR THE ABOVE: You cannot ready an action against a charge. " Here you're not even attempting to have an alternate opinion, you're not refuting anything. You're just saying that your opinion is "unequivocal truth" and a "CORRECT ASSERTION". "Note that I have quoted the rules three times now and drawn my conclusions from those quotes, while you have merely spouted your interpretations." Heheh. I did not that you quoted the rules three times, rules that I used to come to my conclusion, and then you didn't seem to draw any conclusions... you FOUND THE TRUTH, in an almost religios way. Very interesting, but fanatical arguements are rarely convincing ones... at least to me. Those quotes do seem to support my opinion that you can ready a charge, to me. And your statement that I could get the correct answer by: "Ask anyone dude, nobody interprets that you can charge as a readied action. " ... that I also took to heart, and discovered that you're the only person I know with that particular opinion. Ahem. Anyhow. Sorry if you don't like that other people have different opinions than you have. I'm not sure how I can make that better for you. However: "In your response, please include factual information instead of your random and philosophical interpretations of the rules with nothing to back them up other than your word" Since I started by referencing the SRD, and referencing factial information, and you responded with random and fanatical backing up of your own opinion... well, I'm not sure what form of response you really want. YOUR QUOTE: "Conclusion refuted. You move your initiative order, when you take your readied action that becomes your new "turn". With the additional restriction that you can only take a standard action during that new turn." MY RESPONSE: This is the most legitimate argument you have made, and is actually your thesis. If you would have stated this in the beginning, it would have been much easier for both of us. However, I still disagree with your interpretation: are not all standard actions modified turns? Are not all birds modified humans? They are the same thing as a human, except they aren't mammals, don't have legs, etc, etc. Since I am sure that argument does not persuede you, look to the below reasons: SRD: "Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your [X]." [X] = "readied action" INTERPRETATION: I displaced the last part of the quote for clarity of argument. This (among a few other quotes) means that what is happening is your readied action, not a second turn, because [X] = readied action. But what is readied action? SRD: "Readying is a standard action." INTERPRETATION: So, [Y]= standard action. and [X] = [Y]. Therefore, let us reword the quote given [X] = [Y] RESOLUTION: "Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your standard action." CONCLUSION: Standard actions are not hte same things as turns, just like people are not the same things as houses. You find standard actions within turns, and sometimes all you can have in a turn is a standard action, but standard actions are not turns. Just like sometimes you can only have 1 person in a house (if you have a crazy landlord or somthing), but that does not mean when only 1 person is allowed in a house the house equals a person. RESPONSE TO YOUR FORECASTED ARGUMENT: You will probably argue despite what I have said that even though standard actions are not turns, the turn and not just the standard action is what takes place between rounds. To that I would like to respond: QUOTE FROM SRD: "[when your readied action goes off] Your initiative result changes." CONCLUSION: The above implies that it is not a modified turn you are taking, but a standard action you are taking between turns. As an additional consequence of the standard action, your initiative result changes. The rules do not disprove your point, however I believe they imply my interpretation more than they do yours given the previously stated arguments. Given your actual thesis, I think now that you weren't ******* me off on purpose. With the conclusion of this email the argument is now in the grounds of 100% subjectivity, and I don't believe any more emails can be written on this topic to any effect. I find it marvelous that someone could have genuinely reached that interpretation of the rules given the facts, however I will take it as a testimant to the miracle of the diversity of the human race.
SoulLord 12-08-05, 07:21 PM	Charge is a full round action. readying an action is a standard action so unless you are reduced to taking only standard actions No you can't ready a charge. How to be reduced only to a standard action and thus be able to ready a charge. 0 hit points. Slowed (spell)
Usurpator 12-08-05, 07:26 PM	About the readied charge: 1. D&D rules were not written with water tight logic in mind. It is a game, not higher mathematics, and I suggest you treat it as such. 2. When you are the DM, rule it your way, when your friend is the DM, he can rule it his way. 3. For good rules debates as mental exercise, I suggest you go the the Rules forum on ENWorld, they have many members who will be happy to dig in and point out logical fallacies in both your arguments. 4. Readying charges is never gonna fly here. 5. Oh, before I forget: creatures without feet cannot cast Evard's Black Tentacles. :P
NiQil 12-08-05, 07:27 PM	@ Warclone: Approach it from this aspect. Charging is a full round action. You may charge as a standard or move action only if you are restricted to a standard or move action. Readying an action is a standard action. You may only ready standard or move actions. Readying an action does not restrict you from making a full round action in your turn, but rather it allows you to make a standard or move action ourside of your turn. This action occurs whether later in the same round, or before your turn in the next round. You are giving up the ability to use a full round action in this case in order to be able to perform an action outside of your initiative order.
NiQil 12-08-05, 07:29 PM	5. Oh, before I forget: creatures without feet cannot cast Evard's Black Tentacles. :P Not true....the spell never specifies under whose feet the surface the tentacles come from has to be under. :P
Macbrea 12-08-05, 07:30 PM	The problem you have is no matter how you argue the point you cannot convince him that it is a different way then the rules were designed. I would simply let the point drop and not allow it within your games. He has the right to interpret the rules as he sees fit. We have many arguements on this board back and forth over the way rules were written. It comes down on CoCo we frequently throw our hands in the air and have a vote on it. The Bat and touch attacks was one such arguement. You will find we bickered back and forth for almost 10 pages on wether a bat can make a touch attack. Finally, we voted on it and are playing with that ruling. You will notice in CoCo we have quite a few house rules that came about as a result of such arguements.
Begferdeth 12-08-05, 07:33 PM	I gotta go with your right, hes wrong here Warclone. Readying an action is just delaying your action until a certain condition applies. Hes trying to use it to gain a whole full-round action in addition to his original move action. He isnt restricted in any way from having his original standard action... he is voluntarily delaying it until later. The 'resets your initiative' point is just a side effect. Readying is like delaying your initiative count in the middle of your turn. With an arguement like his, there is no point in having a charge be a full round action. Anybody could move, then ready an action for "he does anything" and charge. I dont even see where the rules were vague there, until you two confuzzled yourselves somehow. [QUOTE=Warclone]OK, I have been arguing with my friend over email for the past 5 hours over readying a charge action in 3.5. Given his latest argument, I can't specifically prove that he is wrong. Could someone please give me some help here, in the name of correct interpretations of the rules everywhere?
Usurpator 12-08-05, 07:35 PM	@NiQil: True, I guess there are always someone's feet somewhere above any surface.. @Warclone: Well, for proper discussion madness, maybe you two should discuss what exactly happens when you ready a ready action......
lonewolf 12-08-05, 07:36 PM	short question: if someone scores a critical hit with an acid arrow spell, only the initial damage is doubled right?
Begferdeth 12-08-05, 07:38 PM	You mean, like I ready an action for when his readied action goes off? I think that they mention something about resonance loops and rifts to the Astral Plane when that happens. Well, for proper discussion madness, maybe you two should discuss what exactly happens when you ready a ready action......
Macbrea 12-08-05, 07:46 PM	By he way... given his arguement your allowed to do the following: Monk standing on a 500 mile long road. 1) Move 30ft and ready an action to ready an action if you haven't reached the end of the road. 2) Readied action says do step one Monk in 1 round runs 500 miles.
Warclone 12-08-05, 07:49 PM	I gotta go with your right, hes wrong here Warclone. Readying an action is just delaying your action until a certain condition applies. Hes trying to use it to gain a whole full-round action in addition to his original move action. He isnt restricted in any way from having his original standard action... he is voluntarily delaying it until later. The 'resets your initiative' point is just a side effect. Readying is like delaying your initiative count in the middle of your turn. With an arguement like his, there is no point in having a charge be a full round action. Anybody could move, then ready an action for "he does anything" and charge. I dont even see where the rules were vague there, until you two confuzzled yourselves somehow. I believe Begferdeath nailed it. Thanks for the suggestions everyone. What Begferdeath says in the last paragraph I think proves that you can't ready a charge under 3.5.
TheMagister 12-08-05, 09:08 PM	@lonewolf You are correct, only the initial damage is multiplied if an Acid Arrow crits. TM
Vathelokai 12-09-05, 07:54 AM	I see lots of new faces here at fight club... :D Ahhem...What I mean to say is high newcommers. This is a public service announcement. Rito Maya (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=2700349) was the first ever character in the COre COliseum (COCO), and is the property of the COCO founder Moherajikuyx. All bow. If you don't know how vBullitin code works, and want your posts to look super pretty, look at this chart (http://boards1.wizards.com/misc.php?do=bbcode) or at this written out description (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=353112) of the same. This here (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/home.html) is the Sovelior and Sage online System Reference Document (SRD). This is not owned by Wizards of the Coast, but is frequently updated and 99% accurate. Not to mention easy to use. If your a purist (NBG :P ) then you can reach the WotC rules download page here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35). We use only the SRD, MM, PHB DMG, and XPH here. The only other rules source we use here is the Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg) articles written by Skip Williams. Another handy rules source is the WotC online D&D glossary. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary) Warning: it loads really slow. Invisible Castle (http://invisiblecastle.com/) is the most commonly used online dice roller. There are other more simple ones, if you have a slower computer. Ask around if you want one. At the bottom of the Rules thread, the last post of Miscelaneous Rules (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7019084) has all the house rules for COCO. Most are not a big deal, but the "hide without cover within (hide ranks)= feet" rule, and the psionic stones and tatoos costs will probably effect you. In the characters thread, if you scroll down to post 5, you find the List of Pitlords (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5179881&postcount=5). Here you can find who is open for quests, or check how many credits you have. Then below that are the arena maps. Even further in the characters thread is the Quick Start Guide (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5179917&postcount=12). I'm guessing you've read this already. Here's the prison (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=474312), but I'm guessing you've already seen it. Here's how it works; when you get paired, scan your opponent for errors and post them in the prison. You get paid in credits for doing it. Then PM your opponent. Then after they fix the error (next week, after your fight), go and change your post in the prison to say FIXED. The guilds are currently the place for Roleplay (RP). You can walk into any guild and announce yourself. You don't have to be a member to hang out at a guild. Everyone is invited. The list is long so... Guild Rules (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6467442) Guild Hall (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=500478) East Habari Trading Company (EHTC) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=501159) - Guildmaster King Uther The Psi Consortium (PSI) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=517706) - Guildmaster SauroGrenom The Watchful Eye (EYE) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=520510) - Guildmaster Ayrynthyn The Living Tree (TLT) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=501578) - Guildmaster Luni The Warfare Alliance (WAR) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=517715) - Guildmaster Snommelp The Celestial Forces (CEF) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=527674)- Guildmaster Caterane The Arcane Order (TAO) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=500767) - Guildmaster Vathelokai One of the other services of the guilds are the "usefull info to guildmembers" post. Tao has magic notes (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7660565&postcount=13), PSI keeps psionic notes (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7491003&postcount=12), and War keeps ...ummm war notes.. I guess you could call them... (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7492324&postcount=10) Read them; they will effect your builds and your tactics. Cerebus13 keeps an updated FAQ (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7637707) that covers some of the more obscure rules. This (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=501035) is a copy of the Gladius Arena Weekly, our (mostly) weekly paper. Remember to thank Usurpator for putting you in print. The paper is always taking submissions; you can write about any topic - your fight, observations of the fight of the week thread, plot hooks you've invented but can't figure out how to use, pretty much anything. Submissions should be 1 or 2 paragraphs, and include a link to a thread, if appropriate. Over here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=495565) is the World of Gladius Project. It has a map of the continent Gladius is on, and anyone is free to grab a chunk of land and describe it. If you go on a quest or campaign, then eventually it will get added to this map. This (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=488743) is the Tales of Gladius thread. You can find here most of the fiction written about Gladius. There is also pictures of all players bold enough to see themselves on a computer screen, and a list of their birthdays. Dracazar has created this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=551175), which has a nice template to use when pitlording fights. It also has a directions to use the image maker script Drac wrote. It's a great utility; you type in the coordinates in the name of the image file, and it makes maps for your fight. Definitely worth checking out. Well, that sums it up for now, and don't be afraid to ask questions in the Tavern.
NightBreeze 12-09-05, 07:59 AM	short question: if someone scores a critical hit with an acid arrow spell, only the initial damage is doubled right? imo yes.
Myrridin 12-09-05, 09:26 AM	So I will post again. Is anyone looking to start up a Campaign? I would be mighty interested in joining one. Or even joining one that is already in progress. :)
Mal-2 12-09-05, 09:27 AM	At the bottom of the Rules thread, the last post of Miscelaneous Rules (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7019084) has all the house rules for COCO. Most are not a big deal, but the "hide without cover within (hide ranks)= feet" rule I've been playing here a couple months, and I still don't understand this rule. Here's an example, maybe you guys can help clarify this for me. http://www.io.com/~mal2/CoCoCover.jpg Assume A is hiding in place, and has 5 ranks of Hide, and B has just moved to his current location. By normal D&D rules, A has no cover from B, and is auto spotted, right? But under CoCo rules since he is withing 5 feet of a position with cover (the square southeast of his current position), he isn't auto-spotted, and is still hidden (though B gets a reactive spot check). Is that how it works?
NightBreeze 12-09-05, 09:52 AM	I've got a question on my own. Where the heck can i find the tatoos? It seems that somo of you buy it as a magic item, but i've nevere used it, i thought you coud have tem by spell or by monk PrC
Mal-2 12-09-05, 10:00 AM	I've got a question on my own. Where the heck can i find the tatoos? It seems that somo of you buy it as a magic item, but i've nevere used it, i thought you coud have tem by spell or by monk PrC Tattoos are the psionic equivilent of potions. Here's a link to the SRD section on Psionic Tattoos (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/psionicTattoos.htm).
Mind Rogue 12-09-05, 10:06 AM	I've been playing here a couple months, and I still don't understand this rule. Here's an example, maybe you guys can help clarify this for me. http://www.io.com/~mal2/CoCoCover.jpg Assume A is hiding in place, and has 5 ranks of Hide, and B has just moved to his current location. By normal D&D rules, A has no cover from B, and is auto spotted, right? But under CoCo rules since he is withing 5 feet of a position with cover (the square southeast of his current position), he isn't auto-spotted, and is still hidden (though B gets a reactive spot check). Is that how it works? That's not actually a CoCo rule: it is a real rule that often gets overlooked. However, he can't move to the square to his southeast because the pillar is in the way. He instead has to move to the square to his east. However, he still won't have cover, so he would be autospotted. If he was instead one square over, it would work as you said.
Mal-2 12-09-05, 10:26 AM	That's not actually a CoCo rule: it is a real rule that often gets overlooked. However, he can't move to the square to his southeast because the pillar is in the way. He instead has to move to the square to his east. However, he still won't have cover, so he would be autospotted. If he was instead one square over, it would work as you said.Here's the quote from the rules thread:You are autospotted if you leave cover or concealment, and opponent has Line of Sight to you and you are more than 1 foot per rank in hide away from a cover. I probably didn't make it clear in my example, but it's not A's turn. He can't move anywhere at all. It's B's turn, and he has just taken his Move action (and presumably still has a standard action to go). A seems to be just at "1 foot per rank in hide away from a cover", isn't he? If not, why not, and how far away is he?
NiQil 12-09-05, 10:35 AM	Here's the quote from the rules thread: I probably didn't make it clear in my example, but it's not A's turn. He can't move anywhere at all. It's B's turn, and he has just taken his Move action (and presumably still has a standard action to go). A seems to be just at "1 foot per rank in hide away from a cover", isn't he? If not, why not, and how far away is he? A is, indeed, still hidden, based on your description of events because he was hidden at the beginning of B's turn. B, upon coming around that corner and gating LOS, would get a reactive spot check to see A, opposed by A's hide check. If B fails, then A is still hidden until something changes that. Things that could change that would include A moving, which would cause another reactive spot from B, A attacking, which would cause B to autospot unless A is sniping, A casting a spell, which would cause B to autospot, etc. To illustrate the matter further, using your same scenerio, suppose that A had 10 ranks in Hide, and was one square further north than you illustrated. Everything I just described would still apply, because he is within 1 ft/rank away from cover and hidden at the time B gained LOS.
NightBreeze 12-09-05, 10:53 AM	Tattoos are the psionic equivilent of potions. Here's a link to the SRD section on Psionic Tattoos (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/psionicTattoos.htm). So i may buy a tatoo of chameleon at 25 gp, right? or 50?
Mal-2 12-09-05, 11:03 AM	So i may buy a tatoo of chameleon at 25 gp, right? or 50? 100gp for a tattoo of Chameleon. 50gp (base) x 1 (manifester level) x 1 (power level) x 2 (personal spell placed in a tattoo) = 100 gp.
NightBreeze 12-09-05, 11:05 AM	what's the meaning of "personal spell"...? and why does it double the cost?
Papapeperoni 12-09-05, 11:19 AM	Yello again. Question: May look like a stupid question, but how much is a filled potion? A vial is 1/10th lb and the liquid is ± 1 ounce. How much lb is one filled potion? --Papapeperoni, God of Pizza's
Mal-2 12-09-05, 11:21 AM	what's the meaning of "personal spell"...? and why does it double the cost?A personal spell is any spell that has Range: Personal in its description. They cost double because the rules say: "Powers with a range of personal can be made into psionic tattoos, but they cost double the price of standard psionic tattoos." This is different from potions, which cannot contain a personal spell at all.
Mal-2 12-09-05, 11:26 AM	Yello again. Question: May look like a stupid question, but how much is a filled potion? A vial is 1/10th lb and the liquid is ± 1 ounce. How much lb is one filled potion? I believe we've been going with a potion weighing 1/10th of a pound. I suppose you could argue that they weigh either 1/16th of a pound (one ounce), or 0.1625 lbs (1/10th pound for the vial and another 1/16th for the potion inside it). 1/10th makes the character sheets easier to read though.
TelinArtho 12-09-05, 01:24 PM	In general, you shouldn't have to worry too much about the weight of potions, but yes, it is generally agreed that the full weight is 0.1 lbs per potion.
TelinArtho 12-09-05, 01:36 PM	I need a quick response on how to handle this situation: Player A manifests a power from a powerstone. Target has psionic hole which forces the player to expend more PP in order to manifest powers against him. So: a) does the power automatically fail, because the stone can't put more PP in? b) does the power work fine, and not cause the player to put in more PP because it is from a stone? c) does the power work fine as long as the player puts in the required extra power points? thanks in advance.
Mal-2 12-09-05, 01:42 PM	I need a quick response on how to handle this situation: Player A manifests a power from a powerstone. Target has psionic hole which forces the player to expend more PP in order to manifest powers against him. So: a) does the power automatically fail, because the stone can't put more PP in? b) does the power work fine, and not cause the player to put in more PP because it is from a stone? c) does the power work fine as long as the player puts in the required extra power points? thanks in advance. Hmm. It shouldn't be (c), because the power points used to manifest a power always have to come from a single source. If the powerstone were augmented, I would think that it would manifest at a lower manifester level in order to pay the extra power point. I guess if it's unaugmented, it would fail, since there aren't enough power points stored in the stone to successfully manifest the power. Sorry I can't give you anything more than impressions on the question. I can't think of anything I've read that specifically covers the situation.
Usurpator 12-09-05, 01:44 PM	a) does the power automatically fail, because the stone can't put more PP in? That would be my choice. Powers manifested from items are usually handled separately from own pp's, like with cognizance crystals. If tactics failed to consider the opponent's Psionic Hole feat, by all means let them suffer the consequences...
Ayrynthyn 12-09-05, 01:44 PM	I'd like to talk through a Move Silent / Listen DC scenario if i might. Invisible Mage With move silent +1, 120' from opponent moves to 60' from opponent... The DC for the listen check should be: -6 Move Silent Roll: +8 (1d20:7 +1) distance: +6 (60' at the end of the move) Moving Full Speed - 20 Bob the Listener listens: 12 (1d20:8 +4) and knows... The Rules of Gladius: Skills and Feats By 15-19: within 5'; randomize between 9 squares in 2d, 27 in 3d. |*|*|*| |*|@|*| |*|*|*| Is this correct?? Do the obsticles between them play a part in this scenario at all?
lonewolf 12-09-05, 01:50 PM	I agree with both Usurpator on the powerstone issue and Ayrynthyns calculation about listen/move silently. Obstacles dont play any roll in that calculation.
TelinArtho 12-09-05, 01:51 PM	That would be my choice. Powers manifested from items are usually handled separately from own pp's, like with cognizance crystals. If tactics failed to consider the opponent's Psionic Hole feat, by all means let them suffer the consequences... Well, the problem is - this is a MQ. So there's no "tactics" involved, nor does the player necessarily actively know about the psionic hole. I just want to know for sure before the player gets her butt handed to her because all she has left is powerstones...
NiQil 12-09-05, 01:57 PM	Well, the problem is - this is a MQ. So there's no "tactics" involved, nor does the player necessarily actively know about the psionic hole. I just want to know for sure before the player gets her butt handed to her because all she has left is powerstones... I agree that it should be option A as well.....and here is the closest I can come up with for a rules quote to back it up: If you try to manifest a power in conditions where the characteristics of the power (range, area, and so on) cannot be made to conform, the manifestation fails and the power points are wasted. Since, this case, the characteristic of the power that cannot be made to conform is the pp needed to activate the power. So, in my view, it would automatically fail and the powerstone would be used up.
Altaris13 12-09-05, 02:19 PM	Counterpoint: this single feat would make non-psionic individuals IMMUNE TO POWERSTONES. There is absolutely nothing like this as a feat. Not even power/spell resistance gives you true immunity. Powerstones = scrolls I'd love to take a feat that made me immune to scrolls. What about wands? Can I have that feat too? Maybe you all should consider the ramifications of your interpretations before handing them out like candy. Psionic Hole [General] You are anathema to psionic creatures and characters. Prerequisite Con 15. Benefit When a foe strikes you in melee combat, the foe immediately loses its psionic focus, if any. Also, if you are the target of a power, the manifester of the power must spend an additional number of power points equal to your Wisdom bonus, or the power fails (all the power points spent on the power are still lost). This extra cost does not count toward the maximum power points a manifester can spend on a single power. Special You cannot take or use this feat if you have the ability to use powers (if you have a power point reserve or psi-like abilities). Emphasis mine. On another point, this bugbear isn't being targeted by anything. He is in the line of effect. The power does NOT TARGET. Energy Bolt Psychokinesis [see text] Level: Psion/wilder 3 Display: Auditory Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: 120 ft. Area: 120-ft. line Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Reflex half or Fortitude half; see text Power Resistance: Yes Power Points: 5 Upon manifesting this power, you choose cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. You release a powerful stroke of energy of the chosen type that deals 5d6 points of damage to every creature or object within the area. The beam begins at your fingertips. Cold A bolt of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die. The saving throw to reduce damage from a cold bolt is a Fortitude save instead of a Reflex save. Electricity Manifesting a bolt of this energy type provides a +2 bonus to the save DC and a +2 bonus on manifester level checks for the purpose of overcoming power resistance. Fire A bolt of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die. Sonic A bolt of this energy type deals -1 point of damage per die and ignores an object’s hardness. This power’s subtype is the same as the type of energy you manifest. Augment For every additional power point you spend, this power’s damage increases by one die (d6). For each extra two dice of damage, this power’s save DC increases by 1.
TelinArtho 12-09-05, 02:22 PM	Good point Altaris - it would seem that this issue is not an issue for your situation... However, it still doesn't resolve it if, say, you wanted to use a powerstone of mindthrust or energy ray
Papapeperoni 12-09-05, 02:23 PM	It's the small things that matter. How much do gold pieces weigh? --Papapeperoni, God of Pizza's
SauroGrenom 12-09-05, 02:25 PM	I'd like to talk through a Move Silent / Listen DC scenario if i might. Invisible Mage With move silent +1, 120' from opponent moves to 60' from opponent... The DC for the listen check should be: -6 Move Silent Roll: +8 (1d20:7 +1) distance: +6 (60' at the end of the move) Moving Full Speed - 20 Bob the Listener listens: 12 (1d20:8 +4) and knows... Is this correct?? Do the obsticles between them play a part in this scenario at all? Very close. Your distance modifier applies to the listen check, not to the move silently roll. In the end that does not effect the outome unless there are multiple listeners at various distances. If there are obsticles, then they also play a role as well and they modify the listen check. Moving at full speed does not have a -20 modifier on the move silently check. Charging or running does, but not simply moving at your full speed. The rules are vauge on the topic of what happens if you move at your full speed but not running. In most cases I've seen pitlords simply apply a -4 on the move silently check. Whatever the penalty, it should be less than that for charging.
NiQil 12-09-05, 02:26 PM	Counterpoint: this single feat would make non-psionic individuals IMMUNE TO POWERSTONES. There is absolutely nothing like this as a feat. Not even power/spell resistance gives you true immunity. Powerstones = scrolls I'd love to take a feat that made me immune to scrolls. What about wands? Can I have that feat too? Maybe you all should consider the ramifications of your interpretations before handing them out like candy. Emphasis mine. On another point, this bugbear isn't being targeted by anything. He is in the line of effect. The power does NOT TARGET. First...as to your point about powerstones....no, it would not make them immune to powerstones. Powerstones can be augmented, and could still meet the requirement of this feat. But as the feat is written, if the powerstone can't meet the condition the feat requires, the powerstone fails. As to your second point, you are correct in that that the power being used does not have a target descriptor, and is not a targeted power, so using it to affect someone with the psionic hole feat would not affect the use of the power in any way. As an aside, with the information that was posted in the previous post, our conclusions are logical. You can't deny that. We just didn't have all of the information available about the specific situation to make an informed decision on the specific circumstance in question. We can only work with what we are given.
NiQil 12-09-05, 02:29 PM	It's the small things that matter. How much do gold pieces weigh? --Papapeperoni, God of Pizza's Here ya go: The most common coin is the gold piece (gp). A gold piece is worth 10 silver pieces. Each silver piece is worth 10 copper pieces (cp). In addition to copper, silver, and gold coins, there are also platinum pieces (pp), which are each worth 10 gp. The standard coin weighs about a third of an ounce (fifty to the pound).
Usurpator 12-09-05, 02:38 PM	Counterpoint: this single feat would make non-psionic individuals IMMUNE TO POWERSTONES. Yup, it does. But only a very specific subset of them, namely powerstones that have you as a target. Powerstones = scrolls No. powerstones = powerstones. Powerstones != scrolls. That the same thing as saying cleric/druid/wizard/etc. spells = psionics. I'd love to take a feat that made me immune to scrolls. What about wands? Can I have that feat too? Maybe you all should consider the ramifications of your interpretations before handing them out like candy. Psionic Hole is not a particularly popular feat in the arena, which should give you an indication of its power level. Balbanes has it, and I don't think he has ever got to use it once in 14 fights. I have certainly considered the ramifications, and don't think its very powerful. Most attack spells that must target a character with psionic holes have relatively poor save DC's anyway. In a regular campaign I wouldn't take the feat at all (and also wouldn't take immunity to scrolls or wands), unless I knew the campaign would be psionic-heavy (and then primarily to use against psi-users, not against powerstones.
Altaris13 12-09-05, 03:14 PM	Ah, but powerstones DO equal scrolls. They serve the exact same function. scrolls for spells = powerstones for powers But you are right, psionic hole does not grant immunity to all powerstones, just those who target.
NightBreeze 12-09-05, 03:46 PM	All this psioninc stuff makes my head burn.....never used it before even if i heard that there's a power, fusion, highly abusable...
NiQil 12-09-05, 03:53 PM	All this psioninc stuff makes my head burn.....never used it before even if i heard that there's a power, fusion, highly abusable... Psionics is really only abuseable if you try to break it...which generally means you are ignoring the RAW or the RAI or both. Some things are poorly worded, and others are ambiguous at best, but all in all it is generally considered the most balanced aspect of add ons to the core material.
King Uther 12-09-05, 04:15 PM	Balbanes does have the feat, and it has never come in handy. Ever. But its use is undeniable. I didn't see it listed, but the rule as voted here is that it lowers the ML of a powerstone by 4 levels. Now that is worth the feat slot IMO. It may turn the tide in some fights, assuming there are any higher level psions to fight.
Altaris13 12-09-05, 04:24 PM	Balbanes does have the feat, and it has never come in handy. Ever. But its use is undeniable. I didn't see it listed, but the rule as voted here is that it lowers the ML of a powerstone by 4 levels. Now that is worth the feat slot IMO. It may turn the tide in some fights, assuming there are any higher level psions to fight. Eh? Where is the ruling on that?
King Uther 12-09-05, 04:30 PM	I'm not sure where the ruling is, but it did come up when my psionic character fought Indri some months ago. Caterane will confirm it.
NiQil 12-09-05, 04:36 PM	Balbanes does have the feat, and it has never come in handy. Ever. But its use is undeniable. I didn't see it listed, but the rule as voted here is that it lowers the ML of a powerstone by 4 levels. Now that is worth the feat slot IMO. It may turn the tide in some fights, assuming there are any higher level psions to fight. I would disagree that you have never used it. You may have never seen its effects in the arena, but just the fact that Balbanes has it makes him use it, because it forces those that rely on psionics to use means other than targeted effects on him to hurt him. It changes the way they write their tactics.
Kaigan 12-09-05, 04:46 PM	So in effect, if there is a psion in a party with a character that has psionic hole. He has to use more pp to manifest ,say, skate on that character, and that beneficial powerstones will not work on him? Lol?
Cerebus13 12-09-05, 04:49 PM	Balbanes does have the feat, and it has never come in handy. Ever. But its use is undeniable. I didn't see it listed, but the rule as voted here is that it lowers the ML of a powerstone by 4 levels. Now that is worth the feat slot IMO. It may turn the tide in some fights, assuming there are any higher level psions to fight.This was discussed a long time ago in the other Tavern thread but I never saved a link to it. It actually was ruled to lower the ML of the powerstone by your Wisdom modifier (Balbanes' may be 4, I don't know) to keep in line with the feat description. So a ML 5 augmented power that targetted you would act as a ML 1 power if manifested from a powerstone. Edit: So in effect, if there is a psion in a party with a character that has psionic hole. He has to use more pp to manifest ,say, skate on that character, and that beneficial powerstones will not work on him? Lol?If they specifically target the character with Psionic Hole, yes.
Sindorin 12-09-05, 10:16 PM	I know, I know... this probably belongs in the magic boards. Okay, I seriously think that I might be jinxed. Nanaleigh (my girlfriend who used to have a character in old CoCo) is at Friday Night Magic in my hometown right now. At our store, Friday Night Magic is a Booster Draft instead of whatever is normally done. She just called me saying that she is currently 4-0 and that she drafted two multi-lands (which each are priced at 15 dollars). What is weird about it is that whenever I am there with her, we both do horribly. Now that I am not there (I am stuck here writing a 10 page paper on literary theory) she is actually doing well and making me feel proud!!! When we started seeing each other, I taught her Magic and D&D... am I bad luck or something?
Cerebus13 12-09-05, 10:26 PM	I know, I know... this probably belongs in the magic boards. Okay, I seriously think that I might be jinxed. Nanaleigh (my girlfriend who used to have a character in old CoCo) is at Friday Night Magic in my hometown right now. At our store, Friday Night Magic is a Booster Draft instead of whatever is normally done. She just called me saying that she is currently 4-0 and that she drafted two multi-lands (which each are priced at 15 dollars). What is weird about it is that whenever I am there with her, we both do horribly. Now that I am not there (I am stuck here writing a 10 page paper on literary theory) she is actually doing well and making me feel proud!!! When we started seeing each other, I taught her Magic and D&D... am I bad luck or something?I was horrible at draft when I played magic. However the Extended block.... Sadly I had to retire from the game after two or three new expansions because they retired an old expansion from Extended each time. Couldn't afford to keep buying cards on my college budget.
Sindorin 12-09-05, 10:32 PM	I was horrible at draft when I played magic. However the Extended block.... Sadly I had to retire from the game after two or three new expansions because they retired an old expansion from Extended each time. Couldn't afford to keep buying cards on my college budget. Yeah, I'm still not quite sure what my favorite format is. I also don't like how they rotate stuff out, but when you think about it the game's survivability depends on circulating each set so it eventually becomes necessary for serious players to invest in each set. I drafted earlier this week and had a bad deck because I rare drafted and got 12 rares (1 was a Char, another was a Life from the Loam... both are like 10 dollar cards, as well as the other cards I don't remember being worth something as well). While I was gone for thanksgiving break, however, I drafted and had a great deck as well as some good rares... draft is fun, but I think constructed (any) is more challenging, my favorite is probably standard even though I have no real way to deal with Cranial Extraction and it seems like every deck runs it either main or sideboard (yes, I have seen white weenie decks run cranial extraction... sick bastards :)).
TheMagister 12-10-05, 04:29 AM	My first All vs. All is finished (not posted yet). How do I determine XP/GP for the losers? Both of the losers didn't kill anyone, and the winner killed both of them. I figure its Winner XP for both of the losers that he killed. 1st loser gets loser XP 2nd loser gets loser XP. Am I right? TM
Papapeperoni 12-10-05, 05:46 AM	Another question: Does a monk who's grappling still get the -4 penalty if he wants to do lethal damage or is that ignored due to improved unarmed strike? Any other notes on grapple exceptions for monks would be welcome too :) --Papapeperoni, God of Pizza's
lonewolf 12-10-05, 06:43 AM	@TM: No. It doesnt matter who kills who in an all vs all fight, only who stands longer is rewarded. The winner gets winner reward +2 loser awards. the 2nd left standing gains 2 loser awards and the 3rd gains one loser award. @Papapeperoni: A monk can always deal nonleathal damage without penalty. my own question: can a hawk familiar carry and use alchemist fires?
Maraxus 12-10-05, 07:00 AM	my own question: can a hawk familiar carry and use alchemist fires? This is a good question. Normally, this device has to be thrown. How to handle it, when it is dropped from a bird is hard to judge. However, over all, I would (and did) allow it, because it is a funny idea. There is nothing in the rules that forbits it and there is nothing that allows it but it is questionable from he logics point of view. I think, you are free to choose as the pitlord.
Cerebus13 12-10-05, 01:03 PM	my own question: can a hawk familiar carry and use alchemist fires?Bump to get an answer from an Elder or somebody on this. I can't answer impartially because I am involved in the fight and Alchemist's Fire is not listed as equipment as most other weapons in the SRD, so I have no idea.
Vathelokai 12-10-05, 01:17 PM	As far as I can find, anyone/thing can throw a splash weapon. So, as long as the character readies the alch. fire and hands it off, it should be allowed. *EDIT* After looking at the tactics in question, It seems that the bird couldn't do the alch. fire trick the way it was written out. Since familiars cannot manipulate objects, and splash weapons have to be 'prepared to be thrown', it would only work if the char. preped the fire, then handed it off, which would take a whole round. Now that I look at it, on the chart in SRD: Combat: actions in combat, it has a list of full round actions, and on the list is "prepare to throw splash weapon." How does that work? I've don't remember anyone taking 2 rouds to throw an alch. fire before (move-draw weapon, fullround-prepare to throw, standard- throw the alch fire, move-draw another one...)
Caterane 12-10-05, 01:18 PM	@all: After some debates in the GM Forum, we finally got our advertisment banner!! An announcement sticky has been posted throughout the whole community and is atop many boards now. Here's one <example (http://boards1.wizards.com/announcement.php?f=384)> My hope is to draw more people into the CoCo. I'm not complaining about our current number but every new user is a great addition. I can still remember when King Uther or Huan began as newbies and now they're Elders. Perhaps the next newcomer who posts a character will be another Tellish of Ket, NiQil, or TelinArtho? Who knows. One thing is sure: the more people, the more great guys join our board. I might soon have a new pairingsmaker tool that speeds up the process greatly thus there is no limit about the amount of characters a GM can pair an evening. My dream is 50+ Pcs in every league from bottom to top. Let's try to make it!
Mind Rogue 12-10-05, 03:06 PM	@all: After some debates in the GM Forum, we finally got our advertisment banner!! An announcement sticky has been posted throughout the whole community and is atop many boards now. Here's one <example (http://boards1.wizards.com/announcement.php?f=384)> My hope is to draw more people into the CoCo. I'm not complaining about our current number but every new user is a great addition. I can still remember when King Uther or Huan began as newbies and now they're Elders. Perhaps the next newcomer who posts a character will be another Tellish of Ket, NiQil, or TelinArtho? Who knows. One thing is sure: the more people, the more great guys join our board. I might soon have a new pairingsmaker tool that speeds up the process greatly thus there is no limit about the amount of characters a GM can pair an evening. My dream is 50+ Pcs in every league from bottom to top. Let's try to make it! Wait, you actually want another NiQil and ToK? [Shudder] ;)
NiQil 12-10-05, 03:45 PM	@all: After some debates in the GM Forum, we finally got our advertisment banner!! An announcement sticky has been posted throughout the whole community and is atop many boards now. Here's one <example (http://boards1.wizards.com/announcement.php?f=384)> My hope is to draw more people into the CoCo. I'm not complaining about our current number but every new user is a great addition. I can still remember when King Uther or Huan began as newbies and now they're Elders. Perhaps the next newcomer who posts a character will be another Tellish of Ket, NiQil, or TelinArtho? Who knows. One thing is sure: the more people, the more great guys join our board. I might soon have a new pairingsmaker tool that speeds up the process greatly thus there is no limit about the amount of characters a GM can pair an evening. My dream is 50+ Pcs in every league from bottom to top. Let's try to make it! So, along with this dream.....would that include the removal of credit requirements for multiple active characters? :D
NiQil 12-10-05, 03:47 PM	Wait, you actually want another NiQil and ToK? [Shudder] ;) <throws Mind Rogue into the lava pit in the All vs All arena>
lonewolf 12-10-05, 04:04 PM	So, along with this dream.....would that include the removal of credit requirements for multiple active characters? :D I think removing it is a bad idea, BUT as long as we have enough pitlords I see no reason not to try a testrun at 3 free Characters per player. If were lacking pitlords then, we could always go back to 2 characters.
Gonbow 12-10-05, 08:37 PM	Another question: Does a monk who's grappling still get the -4 penalty if he wants to do lethal damage or is that ignored due to improved unarmed strike? Any other notes on grapple exceptions for monks would be welcome too :) --Papapeperoni, God of Pizza's Nah, monks can deal lethal damage or subdual damage without penalty as they choose. Also, they can use their Flurry of Blows ability while grappling to attack an opponent; with the further -4 penalty on top of whatever their Flurry of Blows penalty is.
Dracazar 12-11-05, 09:58 AM	Hi mates May you spend 2 mins reading here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=551175)? I would like hear you, in that thread or here in tavern. :) Thanks
Guildmaster (EYE) 12-11-05, 12:20 PM	As far as I can find, anyone/thing can throw a splash weapon. So, as long as the character readies the alch. fire and hands it off, it should be allowed. *EDIT* After looking at the tactics in question, It seems that the bird couldn't do the alch. fire trick the way it was written out. Since familiars cannot manipulate objects, and splash weapons have to be 'prepared to be thrown', it would only work if the char. preped the fire, then handed it off, which would take a whole round. Now that I look at it, on the chart in SRD: Combat: actions in combat, it has a list of full round actions, and on the list is "prepare to throw splash weapon." How does that work? I've don't remember anyone taking 2 rouds to throw an alch. fire before (move-draw weapon, fullround-prepare to throw, standard- throw the alch fire, move-draw another one...) I though that only appiled to lantern Oil. Regular oil requires a full round action to prepare a fuse, alchemist fire, as far as i know does not. Oil A pint of oil burns for 6 hours in a lantern. You can use a flask of oil as a splash weapon. Use the rules for alchemist’s fire, except that it takes a full round action to prepare a flask with a fuse. Once it is thrown, there is a 50% chance of the flask igniting successfully. i couldnt find anywhere else that specified that alchemist fire, or acid for that matter require a full round (and by that train of logic implying that regular oil would take 2 full rounds), although i could be wrong. Im really interested in this topic as Alchy fire is one of my primary tactics...
Luni 12-11-05, 12:41 PM	Question: I am unsure how to handle polymorph. What happens to the equipment worn and carried by a character polymorphed* into another creature capable of wearing and carrying the same gear? What if the new creature’s size is different? Unless stated otherwise, all spells in the polymorph chain function as described in the alter self spell description, which states that if the new form is capable of wearing or holding the item, it remains worn or held; otherwise it melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. A human polymorphed into another Medium humanoid-shaped form (such as an elf, grimlock, or bearded devil) can wear or hold all his gear, so it remains in place. However, this is one of those times when size definitely matters, since your gear doesn’t automatically change size as a result of polymorph. Assuming the new form has appropriate body locations—for instance, a human polymorphed into a troll or a pixie—most of your magic items (rings, cloaks, boots, and other items of magic clothing or jewelry) still fit just fine regardless of your new size (see “Size and Magic Items” on page 213 of the DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide). Nonmagical clothing and accoutrements that don’t fit the new size meld into the character’s body when he is polymorphed. (The Sage recommends that DMs err on the side of leniency when determining what the new form can or can’t wear.) Similarly, armor (even magic armor) doesn’t resize to fit wearers of different sizes. The human described above loses the benefit of his +1 full plate armor as it melds into his body, even though the new form is capable of wearing armor. If someone changes sizes, [from medium to small for example], should I say they can't use any of their scrolls, powerstones, spell component pouches?
Snommelp 12-11-05, 12:48 PM	If someone changes sizes, [from medium to small for example], should I say they can't use any of their scrolls, powerstones, spell component pouches?A small hand can still hold a medium scroll or powerstone and can still get spell components out of a medium spell component pouch. Also: "The Sage recommends that DMs err on the side of leniency when determining what the new form can or can’t wear."
Luni 12-11-05, 12:57 PM	A small hand can still hold a medium scroll or powerstone and can still get spell components out of a medium spell component pouch. Also: "The Sage recommends that DMs err on the side of leniency when determining what the new form can or can’t wear." Done! 1 size I'd allow it then. Now if soemone goes from Pixie size to Hill Giant Size, they would lose their spell components pouch, becuase their belt couldn't fit a hill giant. :)
Cerebus13 12-11-05, 01:42 PM	Done! 1 size I'd allow it then. Now if soemone goes from Pixie size to Hill Giant Size, they would lose their spell components pouch, becuase their belt couldn't fit a hill giant. :)Also this quote from the SRD may help:Size And Magic Items When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn’t be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items. There may be rare exceptions, especially with racial specific items.The only thing this rule would not apply to for magical items is armor, because armor follows different rules as indicated in your post concerning polymorph. Size changes cause the armor to meld with the body...and thus that is why they made the "Wild" magical armor bonus.
MindWandererB 12-11-05, 04:40 PM	Wow. This is my first visit to the CoCo, and I have to say I'm impressed. But I also have to say that the whole system is way complicated, so I don't think I'll participate. Maybe I'll lurk for a while.... Also, I spotted a minor error, but since I don't plan on becoming a regular, I didn't want to post it to the Prison because I may never remember to take it off.Validi's (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6886889) character sheet lists his unarmed damage as 1d8, but as near as I can figure, he has no means of raising it above 1d6. He's a half-giant, but Powerful Build doesn't boost unarmed attacks.
Vathelokai 12-11-05, 05:28 PM	Wow. This is my first visit to the CoCo, and I have to say I'm impressed. But I also have to say that the whole system is way complicated, so I don't think I'll participate. Maybe I'll lurk for a while.... Also, I spotted a minor error, but since I don't plan on becoming a regular, I didn't want to post it to the Prison because I may never remember to take it off.Validi's (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6886889) character sheet lists his unarmed damage as 1d8, but as near as I can figure, he has no means of raising it above 1d6. He's a half-giant, but Powerful Build doesn't boost unarmed attacks. It's really not as complicated as it looks. You can ignore 3/4 of what goes on here, and still have a good time with the arena fights.
Ariel23 12-11-05, 05:50 PM	In general, how does one tell an Elan apart from a Human? (Specifically, how does someone in Gladius know?) I can see that after some battles (or even 1 perhaps) that word would get out and everyone would know. Even so, that would seem like something requiring a Gather Info, as per the rules. It's a very minor detail...until someone tries to use a humanoid-based spell/ability on an Elan. In the case of the Arena, it would never happen, an Elan's opponent would always know not to even memorize Charm or Hold Person (etc). There is no physical difference between the two races, since the Elan was in fact Human previously to becoming "enlightened." ("Clear" if you're a scientologist :) )
Luni 12-11-05, 06:10 PM	In general, how does one tell an Elan apart from a Human? (Specifically, how does someone in Gladius know?) I can see that after some battles (or even 1 perhaps) that word would get out and everyone would know. Even so, that would seem like something requiring a Gather Info, as per the rules. It's a very minor detail...until someone tries to use a humanoid-based spell/ability on an Elan. In the case of the Arena, it would never happen, an Elan's opponent would always know not to even memorize Charm or Hold Person (etc). There is no physical difference between the two races, since the Elan was in fact Human previously to becoming "enlightened." ("Clear" if you're a scientologist :) ) They have Identity Papers. :) As for spell memorization, the spells memorized can't change inbetween pairings. Besides, there have been a few people who have cast Hold Person on Outsiders, Monstrous Humanoids and Giants around here.
Iced 12-11-05, 06:27 PM	Wow. This is my first visit to the CoCo, and I have to say I'm impressed. But I also have to say that the whole system is way complicated, so I don't think I'll participate. Maybe I'll lurk for a while.... Also, I spotted a minor error, but since I don't plan on becoming a regular, I didn't want to post it to the Prison because I may never remember to take it off.Validi's (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6886889) character sheet lists his unarmed damage as 1d8, but as near as I can figure, he has no means of raising it above 1d6. He's a half-giant, but Powerful Build doesn't boost unarmed attacks. The system is as complicated as you want it to be. It's up to you whether or not you want to participate in most of the stuff going on. You could just post a character if you wanted and get a fight a week, check every pairings and be fine or you can pitlord 7 fights, have 5 gladiators active, run 4 quests, be involed in two quests and a campaign while rping in the guilds and buying land as a noble lord...;) It's all up to you.
Ariel23 12-11-05, 07:02 PM	They have Identity Papers. :) A) Why would you tell the truth if you didn't want to be "found out"? :shifty: B) What about Forgery? [haha! Never thought that would come in handy in the arena.] But I understand all the meta-game reasons (i.e., honesty is required for the system to work) and as per most games, if you try to beat the system you'll get blue-bolted or what-have-you.
Macbrea 12-11-05, 07:53 PM	Where is all the confusion for riding and tricks coming in? Riding (DC 15): An animal trained to bear a rider knows the tricks come, heel, and stay. Training an animal for riding takes three weeks. Combat Riding (DC 20): An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel. Training an animal for combat riding takes six weeks. You may also “upgrade” an animal trained for riding to one trained for combat riding by spending three weeks and making a successful DC 20 Handle Animal check. The new general purpose and tricks completely replace the animal’s previous purpose and any tricks it once knew. Warhorses and riding dogs are already trained to bear riders into combat, and they don’t require any additional training for this purpose. Control Mount in Battle As a move action, you can attempt to control a light horse, pony, heavy horse, or other mount not trained for combat riding while in battle. If you fail the Ride check, you can do nothing else in that round. You do not need to roll for warhorses or warponies. Am I missing some strange ruling that says we can ignore the fact we don't train creatures to ride and just use them otherwise. I do understand that any creature with an intelligence greater then 2 is not an animal and therefore may be ridden without being trained for tricks.
Usurpator 12-11-05, 08:01 PM	Where is all the confusion for riding and tricks coming in? The confusing is coming from the fact that some Elders (as well as others in CoCo) are using mounts with animal intelligence and without the Combat Riding package as mounts without taking move actions to control them. Many times in many fights. Nobody has said something about it, and Pitlords never have them make Ride checks or spent move actions. That's when I though, something strange is up. Either they are colllectively 'conveniently forgetting' some rules, or they have reached some Elders agreement that isn't mentioned anywhere. Since the last thing has happened several times before, I thought to ask about the rule last time.
Macbrea 12-11-05, 08:05 PM	As a whole we try to catch errors as we are playing them. There is one exception to the above rule that I could find. Link (Ex) A druid can handle her animal companion as a free action, or push it as a move action, even if she doesn’t have any ranks in the Handle Animal skill. The druid gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all wild empathy checks and Handle Animal checks made regarding an animal companion. This relates to Druids link with their animal Companions. This would also hold true for rangers.
TheMagister 12-11-05, 08:51 PM	Okay. Question on Validi. He's a cleric 1 with the Magic Domain. Magic Domain allows him to use spell completion or spell trigger items as a wizard of one half his cleric level. 1/2 of 1 is .5. We always round down in D&D, so he's a Wizard 0 as far as arcane items are concerned. There's no such thing as a Wizard 0. If you're a Wizard 0, you're a commoner (look at me! I'm a President of the United States 0! Bring home the troops!). A Wizard 0 doesn't have a spell list, or a caster level. I can't see letting Validi use his arcane items. Let me know if there's been a ruling on this already. TM
NiQil 12-11-05, 08:56 PM	Okay. Question on Validi. He's a cleric 1 with the Magic Domain. Magic Domain allows him to use spell completion or spell trigger items as a wizard of one half his cleric level. 1/2 of 1 is .5. We always round down in D&D, so he's a Wizard 0 as far as arcane items are concerned. There's no such thing as a Wizard 0. If you're a Wizard 0, you're a commoner (look at me! I'm a President of the United States 0! Bring home the troops!). A Wizard 0 doesn't have a spell list, or a caster level. I can't see letting Validi use his arcane items. Let me know if there's been a ruling on this already. TM No need for a ruling....simply read the pertinent material: Granted Power: Use scrolls, wands, and other devices with spell completion or spell trigger activation as a wizard of one-half your cleric level (at least 1st level). For the purpose of using a scroll or other magic device, if you are also a wizard, actual wizard levels and these effective wizard levels stack. He's considered a first level wizard in your scenerio. Remember, also, that to use 1st level spell completion items like scrolls, he must have an Int of at least 11. To go above 1st level spell completion items, he must have an Int score equal to the minimum caster level of the item, and he would need to make a caster level check, since he is classified as a first level wizard for those purposes.
TheMagister 12-11-05, 08:59 PM	"at least 1st level". Ahhh... That doesn't show up in the PHB, and I didn't think to check the SRD. Thanks, man. TM
DTFarstar 12-11-05, 09:13 PM	Hmm, interesting, must just be yours, it's in my PHB. I just checked to make sure it wasn't errata'd or something because I'd always been playing it that way and wanted to make sure I HAD actually read it somewhere.
Book5 12-11-05, 10:12 PM	A) Why would you tell the truth if you didn't want to be "found out"? :shifty: B) What about Forgery? [haha! Never thought that would come in handy in the arena.] But I understand all the meta-game reasons (i.e., honesty is required for the system to work) and as per most games, if you try to beat the system you'll get blue-bolted or what-have-you. In my fanciful virsion of the arena - The pitlords are avatars of death and the Nimbus exists both here and on the outerplanes. Thats why "there are no gate spells" the arena is in "midgate" if you will. Thats how both contestants share a brew after the battle, and thats how time can get so screwy.. hehe "I didnt forget physics.. I changed them"
ragingmaro 12-11-05, 11:23 PM	Hi everyone! I've been around on the boards for at least a little while and when I read the announcments post on the top I finally discovered the Core Coliseum I was really interested. I'm in the process of making a Wilder but i'm just stopping by the Tavern to say Hi so... hi.
Luni 12-11-05, 11:27 PM	Hi everyone! I've been around on the boards for at least a little while and when I read the announcments post on the top I finally discovered the Core Coliseum I was really interested. I'm in the process of making a Wilder but i'm just stopping by the Tavern to say Hi so... hi. Hello!
ragingmaro 12-11-05, 11:30 PM	Hello! :) Thanks for the thunderous welcome! While I'm here, does anyone have any suggestions for what race I should use for my wilder or any other suggestions in general?
Iced 12-11-05, 11:31 PM	Get energy rays!
Snommelp 12-11-05, 11:40 PM	My suggestion: play a barbarian instead. And then join the Warfare Alliance (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=517715). I'm certainly not biased toward that guild at all, what with being guildmaster and all... :D
ragingmaro 12-12-05, 12:11 AM	One other question, is it true that all you do is submit a tactic blurb against your opponent? DO you actually fight him turn by turn or do the Pitlords get to decide what you'll do?
Luni 12-12-05, 12:15 AM	One other question, is it true that all you do is submit a tactic blurb against your opponent? DO you actually fight him turn by turn or do the Pitlords get to decide what you'll do? Pretty much let the Pitlord do it for you. Some fights end up with characters looking stupid, but with the PL running it all, having the big picture seen makes tactical mistakes easy to spot. It isn't easy running a fight. Make a mistake that causes a character to lose, always opens up complaints.
Sindorin 12-12-05, 12:17 AM	One other question, is it true that all you do is submit a tactic blurb against your opponent? DO you actually fight him turn by turn or do the Pitlords get to decide what you'll do? I wouldn't really consider it a 'blurb', though sometimes you can get away with it. You basically spell out what you want your character to do in the opening rounds of the fight, your basic attack plan, and then you line up several 'if/then' contingencies. It can end up rather long if you are careful, and yes, once you send your pitlord the tactics they run your character in the fight. The way it balances is that you can post your concerns if your tactics say one thing but your pitlord does something else, as well as the fact that you may at some point be pitlording that pitlord's characters, so they have the obligation of fairness. *EDIT* - if you want to and your opponent agrees, you both can state your actions post by post and then have the pitlord summarize the fight round by round. This can be tedious and it is difficult not to metagame, so I rarely wish this upon myself or my opponents.
Iced 12-12-05, 12:19 AM	If you cover everything you can think of in your tactics you should come out ok. Be specific rather than vague and have contingiency plans "If X does this then do this..". Check your tatics to see if they make sense before sending them and decide how much latitude you want to give the pitlord to improvise if something goes amiss. ~Iced
ragingmaro 12-12-05, 12:22 AM	I wouldn't really consider it a 'blurb', though sometimes you can get away with it. You basically spell out what you want your character to do in the opening rounds of the fight, your basic attack plan, and then you line up several 'if/then' contingencies. It can end up rather long if you are careful, and yes, once you send your pitlord the tactics they run your character in the fight. The way it balances is that you can post your concerns if your tactics say one thing but your pitlord does something else, as well as the fact that you may at some point be pitlording that pitlord's characters, so they have the obligation of fairness. *EDIT* - if you want to and your opponent agrees, you both can state your actions post by post and then have the pitlord summarize the fight round by round. This can be tedious and it is difficult not to metagame, so I rarely wish this upon myself or my opponents. Hmm thats interesting. But you play post by post in quests and campaigns correct? -Thanks for all the speedy replies everyone!
Sindorin 12-12-05, 12:23 AM	Hmm thats interesting. But you play post by post in quests and campaigns correct? -Thanks for all the speedy replies everyone! Yes, I forgot to mention that if you and your opponent play by post in a weekly fight, a seperate thread is started specifically for that fight. In quests and campaigns, yes, it is done using play by post.
Vathelokai 12-12-05, 02:24 AM	# QL TelinArtho: Looking for Players # QL Myrridin: Looking for Players # QL Iced: Looking for Players I'm looking for a questlord. Auburn of TAO is looking to go delving into the ruins of the old Arcane Campus. Possibly starting dec. 14, or dec. 21. This would run over the chrismas/new year holidays, so a questlord with less comitments would be best. PM me if your interested. (even if your name isn't in the above quote)
Dracazar 12-12-05, 04:01 AM	Hi mates May you spend 2 mins reading here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=551175)? I would like hear you, in that thread or here in tavern. :) Hey mates? No 1 small comment? Even if you think it is useless, tell me :D
TheMagister 12-12-05, 04:11 AM	Hey mates? No 1 small comment? Even if you think it is useless, tell me :D I like it! If only I could have access to an img file like that... My work firewall shoots stuff like that down every time. TM
Vathelokai 12-12-05, 04:57 AM	Hey mates? No 1 small comment? Even if you think it is useless, tell me :D Also loving it. Probably won't use the template, but I think it's great to have one around for new pitlords. Hmmm... lets see how this image thing works.... http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;a=Golm,L,5,30,Enlarged;b=Mk to,M,10,20,2,28,Fly 20';c=Abrn,S,6,29,Riding;d=Vand,M,8,25,7 ,25,7,24,6,24,6,23,6,22,Confused ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ Hmm... It's case sensitive on the Character sizes and the "a=" "b=" variables. Looks like the lline length for the comment paramater is determined by the img size. Of course you already knew that... :) I think C's color should be changed; hard to read on the white background. Maybe a dark green? I've been seeing this in your fights; kind of wondered what it was. I'm gonna try it out when I pitlord next week. Looks really cool, and is easy to use after you've tried it out making one image.
Dracazar 12-12-05, 07:34 AM	@TheMagister What? a firewall that blocks images? @Vathelokai I'll add to the guide that it is case-sensitive, thanks. I'll increase a bit the comment lenght. Ok for dark green. Thanks :D
Dracazar 12-12-05, 07:36 AM	Is it allowed to hold a scroll on each hand? To read a scroll do you need an hand free? The real question is, may you have a scroll in each hand and use one of them without dropping the other? And a scroll and a shield? Thanks
Ayrynthyn 12-12-05, 08:28 AM	Hey mates? No 1 small comment? Even if you think it is useless, tell me :D awesome!! I was wondering why there was a template for Character Sheets but none for Pitlording a fight. The pics are too cool for words. The ability to crop pics to size... is that a built in functionality of PhP or something you had to add in/third party add on?? As i only have 2 fights pitlorded under my belt, I cant wait to give this a try with this upcoming weeks fights :cool:
Macbrea 12-12-05, 09:37 AM	Hey, I have a question about gather information. Say a 5th level character has +15 gather information. Are they suppose to be able to gather information for black market items upto: (15+take 10) = 25 x 24 = 600 gp items or 15 x 24 = 360 gp items The second seems only like they can aquire some magic arrows and weak potions for a huge expendature of skill points and character adjustment. While the first one seems to actually use the skill with a basic take 10.
Vathelokai 12-12-05, 09:43 AM	Is it allowed to hold a scroll on each hand? To read a scroll do you need an hand free? The real question is, may you have a scroll in each hand and use one of them without dropping the other? And a scroll and a shield? Thanks You have to have one hand holding the scroll, and one hand free to cast. If you are holding 2 scrolls, you have to stow or drop one to cast the other. The exceptions are A) a buckler is a small enough shield that it leaves you a free hand. B) if the spell has no somatic components, then you can just hold the scroll up with 1 hand and read it outloud. C) If you cast prestidigitation, you can have around 10 scrolls float in front of you while you read them. Prestid. dosn't require concentration, and allows you to hold up to a pound of stuff, which works nice for expendables. Of course they can get sundered real easy...
Macbrea 12-12-05, 10:29 AM	That isn't entirely true. You need to look at the spell involved. It will probably require one of the following for each spell. To cast a spell, you must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any). Additionally, you must concentrate to cast a spell. For Somatic, Material and Focus your going to need a hand free. If the spell only requires Verbal components then you don't need a free hand. You will notice Still Metamagic feat allows you to do a spell without Somatic maneuvers. And Enchew materials allows you to do them without Materials worth 1gp or less.
Maraxus 12-12-05, 11:29 AM	Hi, since I'm thinking about characters and mercenarries and I have that problem: Can you get class allies (druid animal compaion) with custom feats? There is something about 2 credits in the rules, but I think this only aplies to Handle Animal - and Diplomacy allies, right? Does share spells include share spell-like abilities and spells from items (and which items in that case)?
Dracazar 12-12-05, 02:06 PM	@Ayrynthyn: I'm happy that you like it, I wrote some info about the script inside the thread. Please tell me the price (in gp and credits) for this: Staff of Sanctuary Thanks
TelinArtho 12-12-05, 02:24 PM	Staff of Sanctuary at CL8 (minimum CL for a staff) would cost: 375*(CL8)*(SL1) = 8*375 = 3000gp. It would also cost 5 credits as a custom expendable with multiple charges.
waywreth 12-12-05, 02:25 PM	Please tell me the price (in gp and credits) for this: Staff of Sanctuary Thanks I get 5° and 3,000 gp. I would recommend buying a wand instead, as it'd be 750 gp and 5°. The big difference is the caster level - the staff is 8 (minimum), wand is 1.
Snommelp 12-12-05, 02:28 PM	I get 5° and 3,000 gp. I would recommend buying a wand instead, as it'd be 750 gp and 5°. The big difference is the caster level - the staff is 8 (minimum), wand is 1. Yeah, but would you really want a CL 1 item with a spell whose duration is 1 round/level?
DTFarstar 12-12-05, 02:29 PM	Yeah, but he wants it to work at his CL and with his ability mod for DCs. Wands are a no-go for that. So... he either pays out the nose or doesn't get his item.
MindWandererB 12-12-05, 03:01 PM	I think I may try this out after all, but I have a couple of questions: 1) If I get bogged down and don't stop by, is there any sort of penalty for doing so? I.e., can I keep a character in "limbo" indefinitely, as long as it's not currently slated for a matchup or quest? 2) Do I automatically recover any items dropped during a battle? Even if my opponent picks them up? 3) How detailed can my tactics be? Can I write a huge essay on minutiae for every possible situation? 4) Some components of Unearthed Arcana are in the SRD (at least, at www.d20SRD.com). Is any of that allowed, or is it limited to the SRD on www.wizards.com/d20 (plus the core books)?
NiQil 12-12-05, 03:06 PM	I think I may try this out after all, but I have a couple of questions: 1) If I get bogged down and don't stop by, is there any sort of penalty for doing so? I.e., can I keep a character in "limbo" indefinitely, as long as it's not currently slated for a matchup or quest? 2) Do I automatically recover any items dropped during a battle? Even if my opponent picks them up? 3) How detailed can my tactics be? Can I write a huge essay on minutiae for every possible situation? 4) Some components of Unearthed Arcana are in the SRD (at least, at www.d20SRD.com). Is any of that allowed, or is it limited to the SRD on www.wizards.com/d20 (plus the core books)? In order... 1) Yes, if you want to put your character into "limbo", simply mark him as inactive. 2) Yes 3) Your tactics can be whatever you want them to be. Most of us usually end up with about half a page, give or take...but in some of the more elaborate fights, such as the Hunter or All-Vs-All fights, tactics sometimes take up several pages from one person. There are others that only send a few sentences. Entirely up to you. 4) Only material from the official SRD (your second link), as well as the 4 books in use (PHB, DMG, MM, XPH) is allowed...and there are certain things mentioned in the Rules thread that is not allowed even from those sources (such as the Gate spell).
Sindorin 12-12-05, 03:08 PM	I think I may try this out after all, but I have a couple of questions: 1) If I get bogged down and don't stop by, is there any sort of penalty for doing so? I.e., can I keep a character in "limbo" indefinitely, as long as it's not currently slated for a matchup or quest? 2) Do I automatically recover any items dropped during a battle? Even if my opponent picks them up? 3) How detailed can my tactics be? Can I write a huge essay on minutiae for every possible situation? 4) Some components of Unearthed Arcana are in the SRD (at least, at www.d20SRD.com). Is any of that allowed, or is it limited to the SRD on www.wizards.com/d20 (plus the core books)? 1) Your character does not have to do something every week. If your character is on a quest and you disappear, the questlord may abort the quest (or panic in my case). Just set it as inactive if you believe you will be so. 2) Anything that your pc does not 'use' in the arena but is destroyed by some other means (i.e. dropped, sundered, stolen) is given back or repaired at the end of combat. I have had bows get sundered, and in one case I grabbed someone's bow because it was magical and mine wasn't so I shot the person to death with their own bow because it was shinier. 3) Huge essays are acceptable tactics but only if they are clear, and I recommend keeping them as simple as possible so as not to confuse the pitlord. If there are several loops in your tactics, you may find that your pitlord doesn't do exactly what you want him to and they will just say that they were following your tactics. You can't tell them that they weren't because the tactics show exactly how to play your character. 4) Unearthed Arcana stuff in the SRD... I don't even know if that is legal here. If it is in the SRD, it probably is, but I have yet to look at it. Also, make sure you are using the official version of the SRD, because I know there is one out there that has stuff not in the real SRD and it still says its an SRD. It can be confusing... I don't know what Unearthed Arcana rules exist in SRD or at all, as I have yet to study the book itself... you may want to ask Cat about that one.
Guildlords 12-12-05, 03:53 PM	The Current Guild Ranking according to Wealth (in gold) The Celestial Forces (1351) The Warfare Alliance (1048) The Psi Consortium (807) The Arcane Order (620) The Living Tree (321) The Watchful Eye (58) East Habari Trading Company (0)
Guildmaster (EHTC) 12-12-05, 04:59 PM	That brings up some issues, Guildlords. My guild started when I was away on vacation, and many of its members were unactive. In fact, until this week, only 1 member was even in an arena fight. Va'ria just rose to EL7. Does that mean she only gives 1%? Also, does the guild get 10% from quests? If not then it definitely hinders some roleplay. Now for what I really need: 1 or 2 active gladiators. The EHTC started off slow because I was unable to do anything for it while on vacation. I need someone, preferably as evil as possible, to join the East Habari Trade Company as an enforcer. If Va'ria gets penalized for gaining a level, I would want 2 enforcers. If I must I will make one myself. My goal is to let everyone who is a member be active, but at the moment that is simply impossible. I think the guild system has a lot of value in it, but until I get everything straightened out and everyone in the guild active, it will simply fall short of its goal: to promote roleplay.
Sindorin 12-12-05, 05:25 PM	I could make another one but I am not as good with enforcer-type builds as I am with debilitators or sneakers.
NiQil 12-12-05, 05:32 PM	Kronos will be miniquesting for membership in EHTC as soon as my last character hits level 5. Hopefully only a couple of weeks, but could be longer. So if anyone fills it up before then, great...if not, then I will when I get there.
Maraxus 12-12-05, 05:33 PM	1st, I still hope for an answer on those two: ... 1. Can you get class allies (druid animal compaion) with custom feats? There is something about 2 credits in the rules, but I think this only aplies to Handle Animal - and Diplomacy allies, right? 2. Does share spells include share spell-like abilities and spells from items (and which items in that case)? And then, Zassl just took Leadership. I hope to find somebody who does a small quest for me (next week, or the week after it), to reach my first personal goal: Gather a whole bunch of good aligned kobolds around me. Thats also question 3: Do you need quests for every ally? Especially can I get a cohort and the first couple of followers in the first week? And can I get further followers when my leadership score rises automaticly?
Vathelokai 12-12-05, 05:37 PM	1st, I still hope for an answer on those two: 3: Do you need quests for every ally? Especially can I get a cohort and the first couple of followers in the first week? And can I get further followers when my leadership score rises automaticly? 1) No, class allies come as they are and advance using the specific rules for that type of ally. 2) Share spells only count for spells that you cast; magic items and spell like abilities do not count. 3) I have no idea. I would assume that you have to quest for the cohort, but not the followers. I think you have to quest for every ally that is not on the list of purchaseable allies in the rules thread.
Guildmaster (CEF) 12-12-05, 05:42 PM	@King: Flat 1% tax if the Quarter is not high enough for the PC. And since everyone can post everywhere there's no barrier that prevents roleplaying.
Maraxus 12-12-05, 06:06 PM	Thanks, Vathelokai. :) 1 and 2 are big hits for a possible next character. There must be some way, to get a knight, with a mount, with fleet on foot ...Hm, looks like I have to max out handle animal... +8 modifier... Damn, I wanted to dumb Cha...
Emrys Donovan 12-12-05, 07:35 PM	A bit of news...tomorrow is my birthday. And now for a bit of big news...I received my first college acceptance letter, from Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in Daytona, Florida! w00t!
Kaigan 12-12-05, 08:13 PM	This is really random yet important. I'm just wondering if there are any chemistry geniuses out there? I need help with something for my final. I just can't grasp this concept. It's to deal with Crystal Field Theory. Thanks in advance.
ragingmaro 12-12-05, 09:03 PM	Anyone have any comments or help on my new character (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7988846&postcount=570)? All help would be extremely appreciated!
Gonbow 12-12-05, 09:57 PM	Gah. I'm terribly confused. Which of the following is true? 1. Equipment at home is at home, and cannot be switched out by gladiators, they only have access to what they are 'carrying' (be it on them, or on a mount) when changing their equipment before a battle. (I've had several fights ruled in this way against me) 2. Equipment at home is readily accessible to gladiators as it is /there bloody home/ and they can pick up/drop off things at will from this location. (My team fight is being ruled this way..) 3. Equipment at home can be added to, but not taken out of before a fight, so you can lighten your load but not increase it. (I've seen a few ruled this way) I'm asking because I'm getting conflicting responses from different people; would it be possible to add the answer to this question to the CoCo rules thread?
DTFarstar 12-12-05, 10:01 PM	Well, Expanded Knowledge isn't possible for a wilder till level 4 if I recall correctly. It gives you a power 1 below highest level known or lower and wilders don't get 2nd level powers till level 4.
Sindorin 12-12-05, 10:04 PM	Gah. I'm terribly confused. Which of the following is true? 1. Equipment at home is at home, and cannot be switched out by gladiators, they only have access to what they are 'carrying' (be it on them, or on a mount) when changing their equipment before a battle. (I've had several fights ruled in this way against me) 2. Equipment at home is readily accessible to gladiators as it is /there bloody home/ and they can pick up/drop off things at will from this location. (My team fight is being ruled this way..) 3. Equipment at home can be added to, but not taken out of before a fight, so you can lighten your load but not increase it. (I've seen a few ruled this way) I'm asking because I'm getting conflicting responses from different people; would it be possible to add the answer to this question to the CoCo rules thread? Saying that you are leaving something at home on your character sheet is okay as long as it is like gold or a spellbook, stuff you would never bring... everything else should be listed under equipment. You can choose what to leave home in your tactics; it is that simple.
waywreth 12-12-05, 10:58 PM	Well, Expanded Knowledge isn't possible for a wilder till level 4 if I recall correctly. It gives you a power 1 below highest level known or lower and wilders don't get 2nd level powers till level 4. Entirely correct! I ran into the same issue when I was trying to build one using Astral construct... you can't take the feat until 6th level if you go straight wilder.
ragingmaro 12-13-05, 12:03 AM	Well, Expanded Knowledge isn't possible for a wilder till level 4 if I recall correctly. It gives you a power 1 below highest level known or lower and wilders don't get 2nd level powers till level 4. Thanks for the help! I expected to make mistakes on my first psionics character and people pointing it out for me makes it a whole lot easier to fix. I'm thinking I'll get rid of Force Screen. Does anyone know what the standard Psicrystal stat format?
MindWandererB 12-13-05, 02:20 AM	Three more questions... 1) Only magic items that are specifically listed in the DMG/XPH/SRD are allowed without the black market. So, because there are no specifically listed psionic tattoos and only two crawling tattoos (concussion and energy bolt), all other tattoos are black market only items, right? 2) Poisons are listed neither in the list of equipment that can be purchased in the Gladius Market, nor in the Black Market. Is Crafting the only way to get them, or can they be purchased? 3) Craft (armorsmithing, weaponsmithing, bowmaking) can be used to make items, but because the cost of using them is raised to 1/2 of the price of the item... it seems there is no way at all to use these skills to make money! Professional merchants can sell their items at full price, but gladiators can only sell at half price, right? So basically, I have to choose between a money-making skill and a practical skill?
bluemage55 12-13-05, 04:13 AM	Hi everyone, I'm new to Coco and I was hoping to get started, and the rules said to say hi here in the tavern, so, salutations. :D
Pittbull 12-13-05, 04:18 AM	Hi everyone, I'm new to Coco and I was hoping to get started, and the rules said to say hi here in the tavern, so, salutations. :D Hi Bluemage55, you're welcome! Just take a look in the Quickstartguide (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5179917), make a character, set him ready for 14.DEC. and you're in for this week. Have fun!
Vathelokai 12-13-05, 04:50 AM	Thanks for the help! I expected to make mistakes on my first psionics character and people pointing it out for me makes it a whole lot easier to fix. I'm thinking I'll get rid of Force Screen. Does anyone know what the standard Psicrystal stat format? Psicrystals are in the psionics: monsters section. Remember, that unlike familiars, psicrystals advance as a creature, and don't base everything off of their owners stuff (so psicrystals get feats :) ) They keep their owners HD, saves, and skill ranks, but everything else is determined as if it where a construct.
Maraxus 12-13-05, 07:21 AM	Three more questions... 1) Only magic items that are specifically listed in the DMG/XPH/SRD are allowed without the black market. So, because there are no specifically listed psionic tattoos and only two crawling tattoos (concussion and energy bolt), all other tattoos are black market only items, right? 2) Poisons are listed neither in the list of equipment that can be purchased in the Gladius Market, nor in the Black Market. Is Crafting the only way to get them, or can they be purchased? 3) Craft (armorsmithing, weaponsmithing, bowmaking) can be used to make items, but because the cost of using them is raised to 1/2 of the price of the item... it seems there is no way at all to use these skills to make money! Professional merchants can sell their items at full price, but gladiators can only sell at half price, right? So basically, I have to choose between a money-making skill and a practical skill? 1) Tatoos (powerstones, scrolls) are an exception, they don't cost credits. (Through I don't know exactly how this is with argumented tatoos or crawling tatoos. 2) Poison can simply be purchased (But you can't buff with it before the fight, unless you have poison use or are imune to the poison). 3) Right. If you want to save money when getting your arms and armor, you take craft (armorsmithing, weaponsmithing, bowmaking). If you want to make money, than you take a skill with no (or almost no) practical use. One question I have: You can only do one free activity (profession, discounts, gather info, crafting ...) in a week, right?
Cerebus13 12-13-05, 07:36 AM	Three more questions... 1) Only magic items that are specifically listed in the DMG/XPH/SRD are allowed without the black market. So, because there are no specifically listed psionic tattoos and only two crawling tattoos (concussion and energy bolt), all other tattoos are black market only items, right? 2) Poisons are listed neither in the list of equipment that can be purchased in the Gladius Market, nor in the Black Market. Is Crafting the only way to get them, or can they be purchased? 3) Craft (armorsmithing, weaponsmithing, bowmaking) can be used to make items, but because the cost of using them is raised to 1/2 of the price of the item... it seems there is no way at all to use these skills to make money! Professional merchants can sell their items at full price, but gladiators can only sell at half price, right? So basically, I have to choose between a money-making skill and a practical skill?1) You can get a Psionic Tattoo of any personal power at a minimum Manifester Level to use it as long as it has a Range of Personal. Vice Versa is true for Crawling Tattoos...you can't have any with a Range of Personal. If you purchase an augmented Tattoo you have to pay credits as they fall under a CoCo houserule concerning psionic items. Read about it in the Rules of Gladius. 2) Look here (http://d20srd.org/srd/naturalSpecialAbilities.htm#poison) for a list of purchaseable poisons. We also have a houserule that poisons can be made using the Craft (Poisonmaking) skill, but the DC to make any poison is based on the DC of the save against it. This is discussed in more detail in the Rules of Gladius under the section about Skills. 3) Craft skills that create something are mainly used to save money, not make it. Take a craft skill that produces none of the traditional useful items, like Craft (Candlemaking), and you can use that skill to make money. One question I have: You can only do one free activity (profession, discounts, gather info, crafting ...) in a week, right?Correct.
Dracazar 12-13-05, 08:08 AM	I just updated the map thread, now you can handle effects. Enjoy! http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;a=ChaA,M,-13,13,-13,7,fly 20';b=ChaB,L,0,10,on mount;n=Entangle,0,10,8;c=ChaC,S,22,0,15 ,3,10,0,Reduce person;d=ChaD,M,0,-4,0,-6,Total concealment;o=Mist,0,-4,4;e=Dog,M,0,-3,5,0,invisible;f=Golem,H,-12,-2,disabled
Mal-2 12-13-05, 08:15 AM	Psicrystals are in the psionics: monsters section. Remember, that unlike familiars, psicrystals advance as a creature, and don't base everything off of their owners stuff (so psicrystals get feats :) ) They keep their owners HD, saves, and skill ranks, but everything else is determined as if it where a construct. Is that really how we're running psi-crystals (specifically the bit about them getting feats every 3 levels)? I know that there is some debate on the subject (at least in the Psionics forum).
DTFarstar 12-13-05, 08:35 AM	Hmmm... I really don't see where the debate comes from. Since search is down and I'm lazy you wouldn't happen to have a link to these arguments would you? It's kind of sad, but I enjoy trying to find proofs and stuff like that for RAW arguments. Of course if their argument is intent based instead of RAW based, then I'll just ignore them. Sorry, almost started ranting. Anyway, do you have a link?
Altaris13 12-13-05, 08:37 AM	Hi everyone, I'm new to Coco and I was hoping to get started, and the rules said to say hi here in the tavern, so, salutations. :D A new vic... Er, gladiator! :D Welcome to the CoCo Bluemage! I love the avatar. One of my all-time favorite series.
Altaris13 12-13-05, 08:42 AM	Saying that you are leaving something at home on your character sheet is okay as long as it is like gold or a spellbook, stuff you would never bring... everything else should be listed under equipment. You can choose what to leave home in your tactics; it is that simple. Is that an actual CoCo official ruling, or just your point of view? I see no reason that people cannot adjust what they carry by picking up from or dropping off stuff at their home.
NightBreeze 12-13-05, 09:29 AM	Dudes, look at the last character posted (the piychic warrior 2/ psion 1). Funny build, and powerful at the first levels too.
ragingmaro 12-13-05, 09:52 AM	(so psicrystals get feats :) ) I've heard a lot of debate about that. Is that the official ruling of the elders?
NiQil 12-13-05, 10:08 AM	Is that an actual CoCo official ruling, or just your point of view? I see no reason that people cannot adjust what they carry by picking up from or dropping off stuff at their home. Listing the equipment on your sheet under the 'home' section means you do not have access to it during a fight. If you wish to be able to swap equipment out after pairings, then it all needs to be listed under the 'equipment held' section, and you need to account for leaving behind things in your tactics or in the fight. Doing it any other way would mean there would be no reason to have a 'home' section to begin with. Swapping out equipment from home after pairings is nothing more than a way to not have to account for the weight you would have to carry to actually have access to everything. If you want to be able to swap after pairings, then don't leave it at home. And yes, though I can't find the post at the moment, this was stated a couple of times by ToK shortly before you returned. :)
Pittbull 12-13-05, 10:27 AM	@Niqil: You said, ToK stated that it is not allowed to swap home euipment after pairings. Sorry, this is absolutely wrong, Cat and I and many others are doing this since years now and it was never a concern. I do not know why ToK says, it's forbidden.
NiQil 12-13-05, 10:52 AM	@Niqil: You said, ToK stated that it is not allowed to swap home euipment after pairings. Sorry, this is absolutely wrong, Cat and I and many others are doing this since years now and it was never a concern. I do not know why ToK says, it's forbidden. Well, it would seem to me that he probably said it because it is a logical conclusion for having a 'home' slot for equipment. If you are able to swap out equipment from home after pairings, then what is the point of having a home section for equipment at all? That would be my reasoning, anyway. I really don't care one way or the other, as long as it is the same for everyone. It just seems a little redundant to have a home section on the character sheet, and then still be able to use things you've left at home. Might as well remove the home section and just have an equipment section where you list everything.
Pittbull 12-13-05, 10:57 AM	I use the home-section for not becoming encumbered. There is a standart-equipment and there is special equipment for special fights. The other way would be to write everything as carried and then leave some equipment at home.
waywreth 12-13-05, 11:37 AM	Am I correct in that a 1st level druid can choose a heavy warhorse as his animal companion? Edit: And it would need the combat riding package or does that come with it as it is a Warhorse? Thanks,
Macbrea 12-13-05, 11:42 AM	Nope, cannot choose a warhorse. What you can choose is from the following list: badger, camel, dire rat, dog, riding dog, eagle, hawk, horse (light or heavy), owl, pony, snake (Small or Medium viper), or wolf.
waywreth 12-13-05, 11:48 AM	Ahh subtle but important difference. Thank you.
Altaris13 12-13-05, 12:59 PM	I use the home-section for not becoming encumbered. There is a standart-equipment and there is special equipment for special fights. The other way would be to write everything as carried and then leave some equipment at home. That is what I've done since the start, and how I've pitlorded a number of fights.
Arstimis 12-13-05, 01:20 PM	Kiowen walks into the tavern, followed by a ragtag group of other individuals ''I've been gone for too long, and its time to have some fun again'' Hey guys! if you remember me, im back, hah I still dont have as much free time as i'd like, but i am going to try and play again. I have forgotten some of the rules, and I'm sure there are new ones I dont know about..so im going to get into this a little slowly... Dont think i'll be using Kiowen right away, he's a bit of a complicated character for now, heh Well, its good to be back, and I'll see you guys around P.S. I told you I'd be back someday, Cat
Snommelp 12-13-05, 01:29 PM	Welcome back, Arty!
Pittbull 12-13-05, 01:30 PM	From the Leningrad Cowboys-Movie: THE LOST BROTHER...... Welcome back Arti!
Papapeperoni 12-13-05, 02:17 PM	Just a question: What ways do I have in CoCo to get a magic item? More specifically Boots of Elvenkind. --Papapeperoni, God of Pizza's
Sindorin 12-13-05, 02:20 PM	All you have to do to purches a minor/medium/major wondrous item is have enough gold... simple, really, but I can understand how you might have experienced a Real Life DM who says: "Magic is scarce and persecuted in the world you find yourself in. You have nothing but a loincloth and a stick..." I get that way too often... because somehow by playing here you get the label "Power Gamer".
Papapeperoni 12-13-05, 02:26 PM	Actually I thought you'd be labeled munchkin. I mean, c'mon, you're busy perfecting you're character whenever you come here (don't hold that against me if I'm the only one doing that :P). About the item, I actually asked because of some people questing for items and the black market. Do I have to roleplay anything to buy it or do I just remove the money and write the item on my character sheet? --Papapeperoni, God of Pizza's
waywreth 12-13-05, 02:41 PM	About the item, I actually asked because of some people questing for items and the black market. Do I have to roleplay anything to buy it or do I just remove the money and write the item on my character sheet? As long as it's a listed item out of the SRD, you do exactly that - remove the gold, and add the item. Example: You want to buy a Cloak of Resistance +1. You subtract 1,000gp and list the cloak in your inventory. Then you adjust your saves accordingly.
Snommelp 12-13-05, 02:44 PM	The accountants at the Warfare Alliance tend to procrastinate... they just finished balancing the books for last week's fights. The good news: WAR now has more money in its treasury than CEF! And this with Ashhûr, our biggest money-earner, off on quest! Sorry, just had to brag.
Altaris13 12-13-05, 03:38 PM	Actually I thought you'd be labeled munchkin. I mean, c'mon, you're busy perfecting you're character whenever you come here (don't hold that against me if I'm the only one doing that :P). About the item, I actually asked because of some people questing for items and the black market. Do I have to roleplay anything to buy it or do I just remove the money and write the item on my character sheet? --Papapeperoni, God of Pizza's Basically, yeah. I would also suggest though that you have "expenditures" and "purchases" sections on your sheet, so you can keep track of what you've bought and what you've used up.
Altaris13 12-13-05, 03:43 PM	[quote=One Fairy Paly to another] Welcome brother - what services may I give you this day? :D
TelinArtho 12-13-05, 03:49 PM	HEY! BE NICE! j/k - but be careful lest Sir Valkin comes over to smite thee...
Altaris13 12-13-05, 03:59 PM	HEY! BE NICE! j/k - but be careful lest Sir Valkin comes over to smite thee... lol
Guildmaster (TAO) 12-13-05, 04:04 PM	About the item, I actually asked because of some people questing for items and the black market. Do I have to roleplay anything to buy it or do I just remove the money and write the item on my character sheet? --Papapeperoni, God of Pizza's If the item is listed by name you only have to buy it. Everything is availiable in Gladius. Some people like to quest for items for the story value, and other people quest for items because you can make more money on a 3week quest then you can fighting 3 weeks in the arena. As for credits, you can make any magic item you want and buy it, but you have to spend credits and gp. So if you want boots of elvenkind that also give you a +10 to profession:twink then you would have to pay credits. The reason you see things like credit expenditures for cloaks of charisma and such is that cloak of chr +1 isn't listed in the DMG, so it costs credits.
MindWandererB 12-13-05, 04:51 PM	I just discovered the Vote/FAQ thread, and now I have even more questions. Question: Do manifester levels from multiple classes stack? Answer: Yes they do. However ML is still capped to the class using a particular power when it comes to calculating how many PPs can be spent for a single power. Contributors: LLMadCow What? Why? Quote: "...you are still limited by the manifester level you have achieved with each power you know." The example given is maximum PP spent per power, but it's pretty clear to me that manifester level doesn't stack at all (except PrCs). No other class allows caster level to stack; the only thing that specifically stacks is PPs. Question: How much does the Skate power cost when purchased as a Psionic Tattoo? Answer: Double normal price like other personal tattoos. Contributors: Caterane I can't find any source in the XPH, SRD, or anywhere on the CoCo that says personal-target tattoos cost double. From what is this based? Question: Can poison on weapons be carried over from fight to fight since it has no expiration time? Answer: No. Contributors: Caterane Why not? I fail to see the logic.
Ayrynthyn 12-13-05, 04:51 PM	All of that discussion a few days back on the FotW about hiding and such got me thinking that im really not that comfortable with how all that works. Since im a practical learner, (and guildmaster of EYE) i figure i should probably know this stuff ;) . i was inspired to come up Instacio (ECL 3 Stealth monkey)... i've got him ready for tomorrows pairings, but i would appreciate another set of eyes or two to give him a look over just to make sure im not missing anything majorly horendus... :cool:
TelinArtho 12-13-05, 04:56 PM	I can't find any source in the XPH, SRD, or anywhere on the CoCo that says personal-target tattoos cost double. From what is this based? Well, for this, it is no surprise you didn't find it - because it is well hidden: Creating Psionic Tattoos The creator of a psionic tattoo must have a patch of uncovered skin free of hair and fur, and at least a few containers in which to mix dyes. In addition, he needs special materials, usually to create dyes. The costs for materials and dyes are subsumed in the cost for scribing the psionic tattoo— 25 gp x the level of the power x the level of the manifester. All ingredients and materials used to scribe a psionic tattoo must be fresh and unused. The character must pay the full cost for scribing each psionic tattoo. (Economies of scale do not apply.) The user of the psionic tattoo is both the manifester and the target; therefore, powers that target another creature cannot be stored in psionic tattoo form. Powers with a range of personal can be made into psionic tattoos, but they cost double the price of standard psionic tattoos. The creator must know the power to be placed in the psionic tattoo (or must have the power available in some other form). If manifesting the power would reduce the manifester’s XP total, he pays the XP cost upon beginning the scribing in addition to the experience point cost for making the psionic tattoo itself. The act of scribing triggers the power as if it had been manifested, costing the character an appropriate number of power points. Scribing a psionic tattoo requires one day. Item Creation Feat Required: Scribe Tattoo.
TelinArtho 12-13-05, 04:59 PM	Why not? I fail to see the logic. There's not much logic with the poison issue - but it is mostly just a bookkeeping procedure. Nothing during the fight carries over into future fights; nothing that you prebuff with can be kept as a prebuff for future fights - even if the duration is long enough to allow multiple weeks. While it may not make sense, in game terms, it does make sense in bookkeeping - otherwise, keeping track of some of the durations of other things - makes it a true headache. /d
Cerebus13 12-13-05, 05:18 PM	What? Why? Quote: "...you are still limited by the manifester level you have achieved with each power you know." The example given is maximum PP spent per power, but it's pretty clear to me that manifester level doesn't stack at all (except PrCs). No other class allows caster level to stack; the only thing that specifically stacks is PPs.This quote is why:Overchannel [Psionic] You burn your life force to strengthen your powers. Benefit While manifesting a power, you can increase your effective manifester level by one, but in so doing you take 1d8 points of damage. At 8th level, you can choose to increase your effective manifester level by two, but you take 3d8 points of damage. At 15th level, you can increase your effective manifester level by three, but you take 5d8 points of damage. The effective increase in manifester level increases the number of power points you can expend on a single power manifestation, as well as increasing all manifester level-dependent effects, such as range, duration, and overcoming power resistance. Normal Your manifester level is equal to your total levels in classes that manifest powers.The last section of the description of the Overchannel feat specifically says that manifester level is equal to totals levels in classes that can manifest powers. The rest have been answered by others.
Sindorin 12-13-05, 05:49 PM	When it ^Rayne^'s, it pours... Welcome back!!!
Mal-2 12-13-05, 06:16 PM	The last section of the description of the Overchannel feat specifically says that manifester level is equal to totals levels in classes that can manifest powers. I don't suppose anyone knows where this was discussed? I'm curious as to what implications this has.
Prisonlords 12-13-05, 06:33 PM	@ All: It's back! The prison roll call is back! Take a peak....many people slackin' off and makin' mistakes LOL Anyway, the prison has been fully updated, and as your prisonlord, hopefully I can keep it that way.
^Rayne^ 12-13-05, 06:57 PM	When it ^Rayne^'s, it pours... Welcome back!!! Yes, I am back... I'm setting up one character now. Hopefully it will be done in time for tomorrow's matchups. I see a lot of rules have changed around here. I will spend more time very soon learning about all of the changes. :) PS, thanks for the welcome.
Cerebus13 12-13-05, 07:31 PM	I don't suppose anyone knows where this was discussed? I'm curious as to what implications this has.This was discussed in the previous tavern at length between myself and LLMadCow the rules elder. Basically it means that multiclass psionic characters have a manifester level equal to the sum of all their classes, unless there is a specific rule that overrides it (as is such with one or two of the prestige classes). So a Psion 3/Psywar 1 would have an effective ML of 4. However you are still limited when augmenting a power to the ML of the class whose power you are using. So a Psion 3/Psywar 1 trying to manifest Expansion would not even be able to augment the power, because only 1 level in Psywar only gives them 1 PP to use. A power that existed on both the Psion or Psywar power lists would give the player the option to use either one as their augmenting limit (usually the higher one). LLMadCow will back me up on this and if required I can find sufficient links to back the discussion up.
waywreth 12-13-05, 07:42 PM	Could someone confirm that Psionic talent does or does not work this way? Psionic Talent: Psionic Talent +2 [PsyWar1] Psionic Talent +3 [PsyWar2] Psionic Talent +4 [3rd lvl] Psionic Talent +5 [Psion1] = 17 bonus powerpoints Edit: I was incorrect. This is the way it works. Damn SRD.
MindWandererB 12-13-05, 08:38 PM	Yet another question: As a duergar, I have 3 PP. A deepcrystal weapon can be charged for 1 minute as a free action by spending 2 PP. Now, even though my manifesting limit is 1/3 of my total PP (1), I have absolutely nothing else I can spend my PP on. If I have a deepcrystal weapon, can I use it at all? It seems sort of silly. Also: So a Psion 3/Psywar 1 trying to manifest Expansion would not even be able to augment the power, because only 1 level in Psywar only gives them 1 PP to use. A power that existed on both the Psion or Psywar power lists would give the player the option to use either one as their augmenting limit (usually the higher one). Shouldn't you be restricted to using the manifester level of whichever class you "bought" the power with?
Warclone 12-13-05, 08:38 PM	Hey I have a question for you guys... Do you know of any programs or applets that can help me with the following: Pitlording matches (I.E. drawing maps) Maintaining my character sheet Easily composing VB-pretty things Especially: I look at my character sheet and I'm turned off even to edit it because of all the code. Is there a prog editor that it would look like its supposed to look and I could edit it while I do (kind of like MS Word or somthing).
Ravashack 12-13-05, 09:05 PM	This was discussed in the previous tavern at length between myself and LLMadCow the rules elder. Basically it means that multiclass psionic characters have a manifester level equal to the sum of all their classes, unless there is a specific rule that overrides it (as is such with one or two of the prestige classes). So a Psion 3/Psywar 1 would have an effective ML of 4. However you are still limited when augmenting a power to the ML of the class whose power you are using. So a Psion 3/Psywar 1 trying to manifest Expansion would not even be able to augment the power, because only 1 level in Psywar only gives them 1 PP to use. A power that existed on both the Psion or Psywar power lists would give the player the option to use either one as their augmenting limit (usually the higher one). LLMadCow will back me up on this and if required I can find sufficient links to back the discussion up. That's...a strange discussion to have. Especially since the SRD spells out that Psions and Psychic Warriors have a manifester cap based on their manifester level in the appropriate section under powers known. For example: Choose the powers known from the psychic warrior power list. (Exception: The feats Expanded Knowledge and Epic Expanded Knowledge do allow a psychic warrior to learn powers from the lists of other classes.) A psychic warrior can manifest any power that has a power point cost equal to or lower than his manifester level. The Psion has similar text. It's no different than having someone who is a Sorcerer/Wizard or a Cleric/Druid, except that a Psion/Psychic Warrior would be allowed to share his PP for either set of powers. That's it. I don't know how you two came to the conclusion of effective manifester level 4. If A Psion 3/Psychic Warrior 1 manifested a psion power, it would be at ML 3, and a Psychic Warrior would be a ML 1. You don't have an effective caster level of 10 if you were a Wizard 5/Sorcerer 5, so why would Psionics be different in that regard? If you were actually allowed to add up your ML from each class for an effective ML, there would be WAY more Wilder18/Psion 2 out there.
Cerebus13 12-13-05, 09:32 PM	I'm going to quote this one more time, for clarity:Overchannel [Psionic] You burn your life force to strengthen your powers. Benefit While manifesting a power, you can increase your effective manifester level by one, but in so doing you take 1d8 points of damage. At 8th level, you can choose to increase your effective manifester level by two, but you take 3d8 points of damage. At 15th level, you can increase your effective manifester level by three, but you take 5d8 points of damage. The effective increase in manifester level increases the number of power points you can expend on a single power manifestation, as well as increasing all manifester level-dependent effects, such as range, duration, and overcoming power resistance. Normal Your manifester level is equal to your total levels in classes that manifest powers.The bolded section indicates that your ML is a sum of all classes that can manifest. I poorly worded my explanation of augmented powers however, MindWandererB was correct in his interpretation. Whichever manifester class "purchased" a power is the class you use to determine your ML limit for augmenting that power. However you treat the power for all other effects and purposes as if you had an ML that is a sum of all your manifester levels.
waywreth 12-13-05, 10:07 PM	Yet another question: As a duergar, I have 3 PP. A deepcrystal weapon can be charged for 1 minute as a free action by spending 2 PP. Now, even though my manifesting limit is 1/3 of my total PP (1), I have absolutely nothing else I can spend my PP on. If I have a deepcrystal weapon, can I use it at all? It seems sort of silly. No you cannot. You only have one pp to spend. You can however charge the weapon at higher levels, or if you get an alternative source of pp. Or, try taking the psionic talent feat for an additional 2pp.
Ravashack 12-13-05, 10:44 PM	I'm going to quote this one more time, for clarity:The bolded section indicates that your ML is a sum of all classes that can manifest. I poorly worded my explanation of augmented powers however, MindWandererB was correct in his interpretation. Whichever manifester class "purchased" a power is the class you use to determine your ML limit for augmenting that power. However you treat the power for all other effects and purposes as if you had an ML that is a sum of all your manifester levels. Wow. That's a direct conflict with everywhere else it is mentioned then, with the conflict being that all the other instances of ML mentioned assume only one psionic class. (Assumed plural would be 'the manifester's psionic class levels in all psionic classes' or something similar to Overchannel) After all, it is explicitly stated that the manifester cap for manifesting is based on your manifester level several times, and implied more than once that this is effective manifester level. Like here: Augment: Many powers vary in strength depending on how many power points you put into them. The more power points you spend, the more powerful the manifestation. However, you can spend only a total number of points on a power equal to your manifester level, unless you have an ability that increases your effective manifester level. Which would make the conclusion between you two about ML caps for augmenting wrong. If it was meant as a house rule instead, it would have made more sense to treat it the same as Cleric/Druids or Sorcerer/Wizards.
Cerebus13 12-13-05, 10:58 PM	Shrug, talk to LLMadCow about it then. I simply report what has been decided.
MindWandererB 12-14-05, 02:17 AM	@Luni – I wouldn’t wish that character on ANY pitlord. She’s a headache. Good idea, though. I’d put the Dissolving Touch on my claw and use it during the dive attack. A crit there would triple your claw damage and double the acid damage (it’s a touch attack!). If TM stops by here, I just want to point out that when you deliver a touch spell with an unarmed attack rather than a touch, the spell damage doesn't get multiplied on a crit, only the attack damage. When delivered this way, the spell damage becomes a "carrier effect," like flaming weapons. But wow... I sure wouldn't have to deal with all that unless I had a couple of days to spend on it. Gonna be a looong time before I volunteer to pitlord. Loooong time.
Pittbull 12-14-05, 03:25 AM	Whow! The master of Kobolds is back. Welcome back ^Rayne^!
^Rayne^ 12-14-05, 03:40 AM	Whow! The master of Kobolds is back. Welcome back ^Rayne^! Thanks, although I don't think I've ever managed to really become a master with the kobolds. They had a losing record, second to none. They take so many hits, but for me it is really more about the flavor of playing them. I just think they are one of the most fun races to play in D&D. This build is going to be a challenge I think, but I eventually want to take the Dragon Disciple route with him. Hopefully he survives long enough to get there. I wanted to make all of his spells cold based, but there are too few choices for this in the Core books. Too bad I can't use Complete Arcane and Frostburn as well. I'm using this character in a game that Iced runs on the Real Adventures boards that is a lot closer to how I imagine this PC being. Still I thought it would be fun to try out a rudimentary version of him here. Thanks for the welcome, I'm looking forward to seeing the matches with my newest PC. It looks like the rules have changed a bit since last time I was here. If what I have read is current it looks like I can have two active characters without needing any credits. I may build another kobold to try out sometime soon. :D
Maraxus 12-14-05, 03:41 AM	No you cannot. You only have one pp to spend. You can however charge the weapon at higher levels, or if you get an alternative source of pp. Or, try taking the psionic talent feat for an additional 2pp. Right, a Duergar with w deep crystal weapon can use 1/3 of his PP, so he can use 0 power points. 3*1/3=0, that's the way, the 1/3 rule works. Stupid rule on low levels. I demand, that a duergar with a deep crystal weapon can use it once every two fights, what equalle 1/3 of his power points spend ... average!!! (Never mind, just kidding. But I had a similar idea and did not realize it was illegal, until I read this post of MindWandererB)
TheMagister 12-14-05, 03:52 AM	If TM stops by here, I just want to point out that when you deliver a touch spell with an unarmed attack rather than a touch, the spell damage doesn't get multiplied on a crit, only the attack damage. When delivered this way, the spell damage becomes a "carrier effect," like flaming weapons. But wow... I sure wouldn't have to deal with all that unless I had a couple of days to spend on it. Gonna be a looong time before I volunteer to pitlord. Loooong time. "TM" stops by here all the time (unless I'm off of work). Who says you can't deliver a touch spell as part of a dive? ... Duh. The MM does. "The creature may only make claw or talon attacks..." Not claw or talon touch attacks. Subtle yet important difference. Thanks, MindWandererB! TM
TheMagister 12-14-05, 03:57 AM	Wow, Ariel23 has crafted a nice 3rd level gladiator. That's a lot of HPs to chop through at 1st level, and plenty of flexibility, and GREAT saves. About the only weakness I can see is inablity to hit high AC fighters, but she'll last plenty long enough to get lucky. Might I recommend adding dissolving weapon to one of your powerstones so that your rare/lucky hit yields devastating results? !! You reminded me to buy my gladiator a potion of resist energy (acid)! Thanks! TM
bluemage55 12-14-05, 05:21 AM	How should I post my character if I want him to go into a quest as the first thing he does rather than duel in the arena? [EDIT] woops, I realize that requires credits.
DTFarstar 12-14-05, 05:40 AM	Have someone lined up to run the quest for you(I think) and then put Ready for (date), Quest for (Whatever) in the title of your char sheet. I think not sure.
TheMagister 12-14-05, 05:44 AM	Have someone lined up to run the quest for you(I think)... True, but incomplete. First, find a questlord. Look in the Characters thread under "The Quest Roster" post. It'll have a list of Players who are interested in questlording for other players. Send them a PM and wait till they answer, and you're in business. ...and then put Ready for (date), Quest for (Whatever) in the title of your char sheet. All true. May I recommend TelinArtho. He's fair. (And a PC-killer! But that's just the dice... OR IS IT?) j/k, Telin! =) TM
KerlanRayne 12-14-05, 05:50 AM	What would Mithral Breastplate Barding for a horse cost? (200 gp x 2) +4,000 gp = 4,400 gp or (200gp +4,000 gp) x 2 = 8,400 gp KerlanRayne
TheMagister 12-14-05, 05:54 AM	What would Mithral Breastplate Barding for a horse cost? (200 gp x 2) +4,000 gp = 4,400 gp or (200gp +4,000 gp) x 2 = 8,400 gp KerlanRayne Pretty sure it'd be the 8,400 gp. You ARE using more metal than a medium set of armor, after all. TM
Pitlords 12-14-05, 06:59 AM	What happens if my character dies on a Quest? What about my allies? Quests and Campaigns that take place in the non-protected city districts aswell as all adventures beyond the city walls are much more dangerous. If you die outside the Nimbus, you will not gain any XP or Gold for your Quest or Campaign. You will lose every XP and Gold that you gained during the Quest or Campaign. Your Character is basically like when he entered the Quest/Campaign ...minus what he spent during the adventure. What if one of my allies dies? Simple answer: it is dead, and stays that way unless you raise it (including the ressurection cost), or use any other method to get the deceased one back on his feet. This replaces the old rule that you drop to minimum xp/gp within your league. The gold distribution is too dynamic and it is too difficult to calculate. This makes Quests and Campaigns less dangerous.
Vathelokai 12-14-05, 07:06 AM	Go Warforged Titan! (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050930a&dcmp=EMC-DNDWEEKLY20051212) http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/wishlist/wish_beholder.jpg
Pitlords 12-14-05, 07:13 AM	And another one... not a new rule but a necessary heads-up to all players and pitlords: Important Note: With the exception of "permanent" effects, no prebuff carries over to the next fight! You have to recharge your Ring of Counterspell, rebuy anything from the NPC Service, and so on. Pitlords have to write such things under expendables. Pitlords, if you see a charged Ring of Counterspells that has been filled with the NPC Service, then write that under expenditures.
bluemage55 12-14-05, 07:49 AM	Hey guys, I just posted up my first character, Leo Gottshalk. May I recieve some feedback/advice on it? I think it's a little weaker than most ECL 3 characters; I intend for it to later use UMD to activate a polymorph wand in order to become an astral deva, which will replace the weak physical stats.
waywreth 12-14-05, 08:36 AM	Right, a Duergar with w deep crystal weapon can use 1/3 of his PP, so he can use 0 power points. 3*1/3=0, that's the way, the 1/3 rule works. Stupid rule on low levels. I demand, that a duergar with a deep crystal weapon can use it once every two fights, what equalle 1/3 of his power points spend ... average!!! (Never mind, just kidding. But I had a similar idea and did not realize it was illegal, until I read this post of MindWandererB) Actually the character with up to 3 powerpoints (but not 4 or more!) can use 1pp per fight not 0pp. Don't forget we round up when using the 1/3 rule. While this is not enough to fuel the deep crystal, it can be used to fuel a 1 point power.
Snommelp 12-14-05, 09:02 AM	This replaces the old rule that you drop to minimum xp/gp within your league. The gold distribution is too dynamic and it is too difficult to calculate. This makes Quests and Campaigns less dangerous. Does this mean Hennan, who died in a quest this week, is still at 6500 XP instead of being dropped to 6000 XP?
Sindorin 12-14-05, 09:11 AM	Hey guys, I just posted up my first character, Leo Gottshalk. May I recieve some feedback/advice on it? I think it's a little weaker than most ECL 3 characters; I intend for it to later use UMD to activate a polymorph wand in order to become an astral deva, which will replace the weak physical stats. Wow, I think I saw you lurking here what must have been several months ago... I'll take a look at it and send you a PM. Right now its coffee time for me, I woke up way too early... man I love finals week.
bluemage55 12-14-05, 09:15 AM	Wow, I think I saw you lurking here what must have been several months ago... I'll take a look at it and send you a PM. Right now its coffee time for me, I woke up way too early... man I love finals week. Haha actually I found Coco last night. Thanks for the help. And I feel your pain, I have three finals left. W00t.
Sindorin 12-14-05, 09:23 AM	Haha actually I found Coco last night. Thanks for the help. And I feel your pain, I have three finals left. W00t. Actually as you posted this I tried to send you a PM... and it looks like you can't receive them or something. Now that I think about it, I might have seen you at another section of the boards (I sometimes get curious and venture out of Gladius). Lucky me, I only have 1 final left.
Mind Rogue 12-14-05, 09:56 AM	I'm going to quote this one more time, for clarity:The bolded section indicates that your ML is a sum of all classes that can manifest. I poorly worded my explanation of augmented powers however, MindWandererB was correct in his interpretation. Whichever manifester class "purchased" a power is the class you use to determine your ML limit for augmenting that power. However you treat the power for all other effects and purposes as if you had an ML that is a sum of all your manifester levels. That would be for the purposes of the overchannel feat. If you are a psion5/wilder5/psiwar5 you could use overchannel as though you were a 15th level manifester, but for all other intents and purposes, you would be 5th level manifester in each of those classes, meaning your pp cap is 5 plus whatever you overchannel it for.
Cerebus13 12-14-05, 10:07 AM	That would be for the purposes of the overchannel feat. If you are a psion5/wilder5/psiwar5 you could use overchannel as though you were a 15th level manifester, but for all other intents and purposes, you would be 5th level manifester in each of those classes, meaning your pp cap is 5 plus whatever you overchannel it for.Yes this is also true, but that specific quote from the Overchannel feat has the Normal heading to it. Normal means what mechanics happen if you not have the feat. For example:Psionic Meditation [Psionic] You can focus your mind faster than normal, even under duress. Prerequisite Wis 13, Concentration 7 ranks. Benefit You can take a move action to become psionically focused. Normal A character without this feat must take a full-round action to become psionically focused.Without the feat Psionic Meditation it takes a full-round to psionically focus yourself. With the feat it takes a move action...each of these are listed in the Benefit and Normal sections of the feat.
Mind Rogue 12-14-05, 10:47 AM	Then I believe the quote is poorly worded and rather reflects the fact that the feat improves the manifester level of the power in question. Try this quote instead. The variables of a power’s effect often depend on its manifester level, which is equal to your psionic class level. A power that can be augmented for additional effect is also limited by your manifester level (you can’t spend more power points on a power than your manifester level). See Augment under Descriptive Text, below. This is probably actually a more relevent passage and it says nothing about summing together multiple classes. Indeed it says that you only use one of them. Also, try this one: If you have levels in more than one psionic class, you combine your power points from each class to make up your reserve. You can use these power points to manifest powers from any psionic class you have. While you maintain a single reserve of power points from your class, race, and feat selections, you are still limited by the manifester level you have achieved with each power you know. In the XHB they even give an example how a psi 10/psiwar 2 can only spend 10 pp on his psion powers and 2 pp on his psychic warrior powers dispite having a common pool of pp.
Zevox 12-14-05, 10:54 AM	Greetings everyone :) . I'm rather new here (thank you to WizO_Paradox for the "Boards to Check Out" thread that directed me here), and have been going over the FAQs and creating a character for the past few days now. I've run into a couple of questions that don't seem to be answered in the FAQs, however, so I was hoping that I could get some answers for them here, if anyone would care to help a prospective participant out. 1. The character I'm designing is a wizard, so I'm curious as to wether or not I can copy spells from scrolls I purchase into my spellbook while preparing my character (as characters with crafting abilities are allowed to craft whatever they wish up to 200xp worth of items before posting thier characters). If so, how would I show this on my character sheet? If not, how do I go about it once my character is completed and posted (i.e. is it a "Free Action" or would I need to take a week off of combat to do it)? 2. I'm interested in making one of my first characters a Cleric, but there doesn't seem to be a list of permitted deities for such anywhere. I suppose one could presume that only the PHB deities are allowed, but I was wondering if any others would be permissable if I used only PHB domains? Or if that won't work, could I use others if I use them only in name and use the domains available to their closest PHB equivalent (example: a Cleric of Hoar [FR God of Vengeance] using the domains for St. Cuthbert)? 3. On credits, they seem to be used for a lot (purchasing items, quests, and campaigns jump to mind), yet there seem to be few ways to gain them outside of running a fight/quest/campaign/ect. I find I don't have enough free time to do such, or to write a story, and I lack the artistic talents to create maps or the rules knowledge to do auditing or character sheet mistakes. Is there any way at all to earn credits simply by doing something as a PC? 4. Once my character is created, is using credits to visit the Black Market the only way to buy items? Or can I purchase some in other ways? Any help would be appreciated. Zevox
Maraxus 12-14-05, 10:58 AM	Actually the character with up to 3 powerpoints (but not 4 or more!) can use 1pp per fight not 0pp. Don't forget we round up when using the 1/3 rule. While this is not enough to fuel the deep crystal, it can be used to fuel a 1 point power. Sure but what if you have no way to spent single power points. Whatever the 1/3 rule is for, in this situation it fails. Another situation is items. A 1/day useable item brings as much but costs only 1/3 as much as a 3/day item. Maybe it is okay for mid high and high level casters (when they begin to have 3rd level spells/powers), through it definitly favors the wizard (Who has about 1/2 os the prepared spells suboptimal for any situation anyway), but at low numbers, it's just ugly. :) But okay, I agree, that I still don't have a better proposal, so I should stop wailing. ;) And another one... not a new rule but a necessary heads-up to all players and pitlords: Important Note: With the exception of "permanent" effects, no prebuff carries over to the next fight! You have to recharge your Ring of Counterspell, rebuy anything from the NPC Service, and so on. Pitlords have to write such things under expendables. Pitlords, if you see a charged Ring of Counterspells that has been filled with the NPC Service, then write that under expenditures. But if they are not used, the thinks get refounded, right? Same thing with other perbuffs that should wear over into the next fight? Poison goes back into the flask, if not used and spellcaster-servises refund the money, right??
Snommelp 12-14-05, 11:02 AM	Welcome, Zevox! Enjoy your stay. Try the kobold, it's delicious. 1. The character I'm designing is a wizard, so I'm curious as to wether or not I can copy spells from scrolls I purchase into my spellbook while preparing my character (as characters with crafting abilities are allowed to craft whatever they wish up to 200xp worth of items before posting thier characters). If so, how would I show this on my character sheet? If not, how do I go about it once my character is completed and posted (i.e. is it a "Free Action" or would I need to take a week off of combat to do it)? Yup, you can scribe them before you activate your character. Put the scrolls in your "past expenditures" area and mark them as being scribed into your spellbook. 2. I'm interested in making one of my first characters a Cleric, but there doesn't seem to be a list of permitted deities for such anywhere. I suppose one could presume that only the PHB deities are allowed, but I was wondering if any others would be permissable if I used only PHB domains? Or if that won't work, could I use others if I use them only in name and use the domains available to their closest PHB equivalent (example: a Cleric of Hoar [FR God of Vengeance] using the domains for St. Cuthbert)? You can use any deity you want, and any domain from the PHB or SRD. 4. Once my character is created, is using credits to visit the Black Market the only way to buy items? Or can I purchase some in other ways? If it's an item in the PHB, DMG, or SRD, you can simply buy it. If it's not in one of those rule sources but there are rules for it, you have to get permission to buy it in the Black Market (which will cost credits, most likely). Yeah, I ignored question 3. The reason is that I'm not sure of all of the ways to earn credits. However, the ones that I do know about are all on your list of "things that I don't have enough time for." Actually, finding violations on characters doesn't take that much time; you're going to want to check your opponent's sheet before fighting him anyway, to determine your tactics, so you might as well look for mistakes while you're doing that. It's the slowest way to earn credits, but you're still earning credits.
Zevox 12-14-05, 11:07 AM	Thanks a lot Snommelp :) . The reason I didn't feel I could find violations on characters actually was due to a lack of rules knowledge - I fear I'd miss most any of them if I tried (I checked a sample audit sheet the FAQ linked, and found a few example corrections that I needed to make to my own in-construction character sheet :doh: ). I'll see if I can manage it though - I suppose I'll have to get better at that to ensure that no such violations exist on my own character sheet, if nothing else. Again, thanks a lot. Zevox
TelinArtho 12-14-05, 11:12 AM	Greetings everyone :) . I'm rather new here (thank you to WizO_Paradox for the "Boards to Check Out" thread that directed me here), and have been going over the FAQs and creating a character for the past few days now. I've run into a couple of questions that don't seem to be answered in the FAQs, however, so I was hoping that I could get some answers for them here, if anyone would care to help a prospective participant out. 1. The character I'm designing is a wizard, so I'm curious as to wether or not I can copy spells from scrolls I purchase into my spellbook while preparing my character (as characters with crafting abilities are allowed to craft whatever they wish up to 200xp worth of items before posting thier characters). If so, how would I show this on my character sheet? If not, how do I go about it once my character is completed and posted (i.e. is it a "Free Action" or would I need to take a week off of combat to do it)? 2. I'm interested in making one of my first characters a Cleric, but there doesn't seem to be a list of permitted deities for such anywhere. I suppose one could presume that only the PHB deities are allowed, but I was wondering if any others would be permissable if I used only PHB domains? Or if that won't work, could I use others if I use them only in name and use the domains available to their closest PHB equivalent (example: a Cleric of Hoar [FR God of Vengeance] using the domains for St. Cuthbert)? 3. On credits, they seem to be used for a lot (purchasing items, quests, and campaigns jump to mind), yet there seem to be few ways to gain them outside of running a fight/quest/campaign/ect. I find I don't have enough free time to do such, or to write a story, and I lack the artistic talents to create maps or the rules knowledge to do auditing or character sheet mistakes. Is there any way at all to earn credits simply by doing something as a PC? 4. Once my character is created, is using credits to visit the Black Market the only way to buy items? Or can I purchase some in other ways? Any help would be appreciated. Zevox About the wizard: You can craft scrolls out of spells from your spellbook normally before the character starts - up to 200xp worth (which is 2500gp in crafting...). You can also purchase scrolls of spells you don't know and scribe them in; you can also use NPC services to copy it out of someone else's spellbook: Scroll: 25*CL*SL to purchase + 100gp/level to scribe NPC services: 50gp*SL to copy a spell from another spellbook + 100gp/level to scribe. (Scrolls are better for scribing 1st level spells; NPC services is better for 2nd level and up). Also - I very much recommend a blessed book for a straight mage as soon as you can afford it - as it saves you A LOT of money in the long run. About the cleric: You can use any religion that you can think up with using only the domains in the SRD (which includes the Divine SRD). I personally have 5 clerics of Denth the Summoner (Domains: Evil, War, and Strength) - but you should feel encouraged to create your own. About buying items: You can purchase any item listed in the SRD that you have the money for. If you want something that isn't specifically listed, this is what costs credits. Check the blackmarket if you want to see what the credit costs are. About credits: There are a few things you can do to produce credits without much work: 1. Send your birthday in to Scribelords via PM. On your birthday you'll get a credit. 2. Send your photo to Scribelords - again worth a credit. 3. Send in violations to the prison. These are worth 1 credit per 10 violations. 4. Perform an audit and post it to the prison. These are only valid at ECL4+ and are worth 1 credit per 3 levels audited. Be warned - audits are very time-consuming at higher levels and can only be performed on characters who are active. 5. Run 1 fight/week. Although in the first few weeks it probably would take you several hours - after a while you should be able to get into a groove and get it done quicker. Also - this gives back to the community - which is always a good thing. Hope this helps. /d
lonewolf 12-14-05, 11:13 AM	Greetings everyone :) . I'm rather new here (thank you to WizO_Paradox for the "Boards to Check Out" thread that directed me here), and have been going over the FAQs and creating a character for the past few days now. I've run into a couple of questions that don't seem to be answered in the FAQs, however, so I was hoping that I could get some answers for them here, if anyone would care to help a prospective participant out. Hi there! Im happy to help. 2. I'm interested in making one of my first characters a Cleric, but there doesn't seem to be a list of permitted deities for such anywhere. I suppose one could presume that only the PHB deities are allowed, but I was wondering if any others would be permissable if I used only PHB domains? Or if that won't work, could I use others if I use them only in name and use the domains available to their closest PHB equivalent (example: a Cleric of Hoar [FR God of Vengeance] using the domains for St. Cuthbert)? There is no restriction on deities. You can even invent one and take any 2 domains available. 3. On credits, they seem to be used for a lot (purchasing items, quests, and campaigns jump to mind), yet there seem to be few ways to gain them outside of running a fight/quest/campaign/ect. I find I don't have enough free time to do such, or to write a story, and I lack the artistic talents to create maps or the rules knowledge to do auditing or character sheet mistakes. Is there any way at all to earn credits simply by doing something as a PC? Credits are usually only awarded for activity that is more than simple playing your Character. However, you can easily live without credits if you can accept not to go on quests or campaigns(see also answer to #4). You can still do miniquests or join guilds and after some time playing maybe you find the time to earn a few credits to send one of your chars on a quest. 4. Once my character is created, is using credits to visit the Black Market the only way to buy items? Or can I purchase some in other ways? Any help would be appreciated. Zevox You need only credits for nonstandart equipment, that is not listed in the SRD/books. => you can buy as many scrolls or longswords +1 as you want, but if you want an Headband of Intellect +1 you need to spend credits. Buying standart items is done by simply reducing your money amount on your sheet and adding the item. => you dont really need credits for items if your not too selective on your equipment. and once again welcome to CoCo. lonewolf
Cerebus13 12-14-05, 11:14 AM	Then I believe the quote is poorly worded and rather reflects the fact that the feat improves the manifester level of the power in question. Try this quote instead. This is probably actually a more relevent passage and it says nothing about summing together multiple classes. Indeed it says that you only use one of them. Also, try this one: In the XHB they even give an example how a psi 10/psiwar 2 can only spend 10 pp on his psion powers and 2 pp on his psychic warrior powers dispite having a common pool of pp.I'm not going to even bother arguing this anymore, because it wasn't even my idea. LLMadCow's posts on this subject are here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6665083) and here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6664616&postcount=669). Since he is a rules elder I take his word for it until it is refuted by another elder type person.
Sindorin 12-14-05, 11:15 AM	Greetings everyone :) . I'm rather new here (thank you to WizO_Paradox for the "Boards to Check Out" thread that directed me here), and have been going over the FAQs and creating a character for the past few days now. I've run into a couple of questions that don't seem to be answered in the FAQs, however, so I was hoping that I could get some answers for them here, if anyone would care to help a prospective participant out. 1. The character I'm designing is a wizard, so I'm curious as to wether or not I can copy spells from scrolls I purchase into my spellbook while preparing my character (as characters with crafting abilities are allowed to craft whatever they wish up to 200xp worth of items before posting thier characters). If so, how would I show this on my character sheet? If not, how do I go about it once my character is completed and posted (i.e. is it a "Free Action" or would I need to take a week off of combat to do it)? 2. I'm interested in making one of my first characters a Cleric, but there doesn't seem to be a list of permitted deities for such anywhere. I suppose one could presume that only the PHB deities are allowed, but I was wondering if any others would be permissable if I used only PHB domains? Or if that won't work, could I use others if I use them only in name and use the domains available to their closest PHB equivalent (example: a Cleric of Hoar [FR God of Vengeance] using the domains for St. Cuthbert)? 3. On credits, they seem to be used for a lot (purchasing items, quests, and campaigns jump to mind), yet there seem to be few ways to gain them outside of running a fight/quest/campaign/ect. I find I don't have enough free time to do such, or to write a story, and I lack the artistic talents to create maps or the rules knowledge to do auditing or character sheet mistakes. Is there any way at all to earn credits simply by doing something as a PC? 4. Once my character is created, is using credits to visit the Black Market the only way to buy items? Or can I purchase some in other ways? Any help would be appreciated. Zevox Snommelp helped out with most of this, however... For number 1, I would really recommend for spells above first level to use an NPC spellcasting service to get the right to scribe a spell from their book. You save money that way. (its 50*spell level to have an NPC cast, as opposed to 150 gp for a 2nd level scroll, so you would save 50 gp on a second level spell, and the money saved increases exponentially from there. For number 2, you can not only use any deity you want, you can MAKE ONE UP! YAY! For number 3, if there is a Guildmaster slot open, that is worth a credit/week. Right now, I'm pretty sure those are all filled... For number 4, to follow up on what Snommelp said, the credits are spent in the black market when you want an item that is not in the DMG. I have an ECL 7 Diviner named Va'ria Theladrais, for example. She'll hopefully level up at some point within a month, where she'll reach level 8 and get a stat increase. Sadly, this would put her Int at an odd number. To benefit from that, I will be spending 5 of my credits (heh, the only 5 i have at the moment) to upgrade the Headband of Intellect +2 she currently has to a +3. This is a custom item since the DMG only lists increments of even numbers... I may want more credits by then, so I'll probably have to get more, as she will need to craft wands in order to deal with the 1/3 rule. Also, please be sure to check out The Arcane Order. We'd love for you to study with us :).
NiQil 12-14-05, 11:21 AM	Snommelp helped out with most of this, however... For number 1, I would really recommend for spells above first level to use an NPC spellcasting service to have them cast the spell, and then scribe the scroll into your book. You save money that way. (its 50*spell level to have an NPC cast, as opposed to 150 gp for a 2nd level scroll, so you would save 50 gp on a second level spell, and the money saved increases exponentially from there. For number 2, you can not only use any deity you want, you can MAKE ONE UP! YAY! For number 3, if there is a Guildmaster slot open, that is worth a credit/week. Right now, I'm pretty sure those are all filled... For number 4, to follow up on what Snommelp said, the credits are spent in the black market when you want an item that is not in the DMG. I have an ECL 7 Diviner named Va'ria Theladrais, for example. She'll hopefully level up at some point within a month, where she'll reach level 8 and get a stat increase. Sadly, this would put her Int at an odd number. To benefit from that, I will be spending 5 of my credits (heh, the only 5 i have at the moment) to upgrade the Headband of Intellect +2 she currently has to a +3. This is a custom item since the DMG only lists increments of even numbers... I may want more credits by then, so I'll probably have to get more, as she will need to craft wands in order to deal with the 1/3 rule. Also, please be sure to check out The Arcane Order. We'd love for you to study with us :). @ Sindorin: Your solution in number 1 does not work. I'm not aware that you can scribe something into your spellbook just from having the spell cast on you. If that were the case, you could scribe any spell an opponent hits you with in the arena. You have to either copy it from an NPC spellbook, or copy it from a scroll.
Snommelp 12-14-05, 11:24 AM	I'm very tempted to post my ECL 11 character, but the league is not open yet and I don't have enough credits to activate him yet anyway. I guess you'll all have to tremble in fear later.
Sindorin 12-14-05, 11:25 AM	@ Sindorin: Your solution in number 1 does not work. I'm not aware that you can scribe something into your spellbook just from having the spell cast on you. If that were the case, you could scribe any spell an opponent hits you with in the arena. You have to either copy it from an NPC spellbook, or copy it from a scroll. Hmm. I don't think that's true. It's how it has worked for quite some time now... I'll have to ask my colleagues who told me to do it that way about that... Be my guest to throw every single scribing member of the Arcane Order into prison then. Bring it :).
Zevox 12-14-05, 11:27 AM	Okay, thanks everyone. I believe I've got everything I need now (thanks especially for the tip on copying spells from an NPC's spellbook), and should be able to post my first character shortly. Again, thanks a lot for the answers and warm welcome :) . Zevox
TelinArtho 12-14-05, 11:30 AM	Hmm. I don't think that's true. It's how it has worked for quite some time now... I'll have to ask my colleagues who told me to do it that way about that... Be my guest to throw every single scribing member of the Arcane Order into prison then. Bring it :). Nope - the issue is your wording and that's all, you said to have NPC services cast the spell. It actually is copying from an NPC services spell book. You had the price right (50gp*SL), but just the word was wrong.
NiQil 12-14-05, 11:30 AM	Hmm. I don't think that's true. It's how it has worked for quite some time now... I'll have to ask my colleagues who told me to do it that way about that... Be my guest to throw every single scribing member of the Arcane Order into prison then. Bring it :). Keep in mind, when you are purchasing from an NPC, what you are doing is paying them for the right to copy the spell from their spellbook. They are not casting the spell on you. So you may mean the same thing I am referring to, and just saying it in a different fashion. Edit: Telin, get out of my head! LOL
Sindorin 12-14-05, 11:32 AM	AH, yes, I'm sure we've misread each other... I simply worded it wrong.
Snommelp 12-14-05, 11:40 AM	HuBBaBuBBa: There are some errors with your character, Lorenzo Bubbit. Your HP is too high; after level 1, each HD is the average roll, not the maximum. That puts him at 33 HP (10+5.5+5.5+4+4+4=33), not 42. Your AC is too high; mage armor doesn't stack with actual armor. I'd recommend selling those potions for that reason. Your speed is too high; Full Plate drops your speed from 30 to 20. You can only pre-buff something with a duration of at least 8 hours, so most potions are out. And with that said, welcome to the CoCo! Enjoy your stay. Don't eat the gnomes; they're stringy. :D
Mal-2 12-14-05, 11:45 AM	I'm not going to even bother arguing this anymore, because it wasn't even my idea. LLMadCow's posts on this subject are here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6665083) and here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6664616&postcount=669). Since he is a rules elder I take his word for it until it is refuted by another elder type person. Thank you for digging up those links.
DTFarstar 12-14-05, 12:08 PM	Maybe I'm missing it, but is there a list of armor that can be spiked?
TelinArtho 12-14-05, 12:16 PM	Maybe I'm missing it, but is there a list of armor that can be spiked? Nope - all armors can be spiked.
Gonbow 12-14-05, 12:19 PM	Maybe I'm missing it, but is there a list of armor that can be spiked? All armor can be spiked. It may not make sense sometimes, but that is how it is.
DTFarstar 12-14-05, 12:22 PM	That's what I thought, but it really does not make sense for some armor so I was thinking I might be missing something. Ah, RAW, you trump logic once again.
Maraxus 12-14-05, 12:43 PM	I know a punk, and he insist on that the spikes on his leather jacked are no weapons! PS: There are still some hours and I'm searching for a questlord for Zassl's leadership-cohort. I have no problem with waiting one more week, but if anybody wants to...
DTFarstar 12-14-05, 12:45 PM	He just isn't proficient is all.
TelinArtho 12-14-05, 01:48 PM	PS: There are still some hours and I'm searching for a questlord for Zassl's leadership-cohort. Why didn't you send a PM to me? I can do it. Send me a PM with the cohort's stats, and the EL of the quest. ----------------------------- On another note, it is about time for Daeren to go to the Desert of Ith and take care of a nasty blue dragon. In a few weeks I'll need a questlord for this. If there are any characters who want to help him take on a dragon, please let me know. It screws with the rewards - but Daeren is mostly doing it for "fun" anyway... If Daeren goes solo - the quest will be EL8 (young blue dragon). If he goes with a character ECL6-7, I'd like the quest to EL 9-10 (advanced young blue dragon or young blue with friends). If he goes with a character ECL8-9, I'd like the quest to be EL11 (young adult blue dragon). Any takers?
waywreth 12-14-05, 02:13 PM	On another note, it is about time for Daeren to go to the Desert of Ith and take care of a nasty blue dragon. In a few weeks I'll need a questlord for this. Any takers? I've never run a quest on the boards before, but I'd be willing to give it a shot. I have run some play by post games and DM in real life. Let me know if you like my resume.
TelinArtho 12-14-05, 02:18 PM	Well, the only thing I'm really looking for in a questlord is someone who can really run a dragon. Dragons are some of the most challenging creatures in the game and I like to be challenged by a good GM on them. If you are willing to take the task - I'll have you. I'm not looking to start for another 2 weeks - so please feel free to freshen up on Daeren's past (especially his last 2 quests). I'm still interested in taking someone with me. I should probably have mentioned that he'd rather not go with someone evil - and someone with some sort of healing power is always a plus (but not required...).
Ravashack 12-14-05, 02:19 PM	I'm not going to even bother arguing this anymore, because it wasn't even my idea. LLMadCow's posts on this subject are here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6665083) and here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6664616&postcount=669). Since he is a rules elder I take his word for it until it is refuted by another elder type person. Looking at the rulings, all LLMadCow confirms ruling for certain is that you add the PP from the separate classes together. Which is how it works anyway. In the context of how LLMC posted, the line about ML adding together can be read as either 'it can be added together' or 'it might be added together...' Would another Elder like to look at this please?
Luni 12-14-05, 02:22 PM	Well, the only thing I'm really looking for in a questlord is someone who can really run a dragon. Dragons are some of the most challenging creatures in the game and I like to be challenged by a good GM on them. If you are willing to take the task - I'll have you. I'm not looking to start for another 2 weeks - so please feel free to freshen up on Daeren's past (especially his last 2 quests). I'm still interested in taking someone with me. I should probably have mentioned that he'd rather not go with someone evil - and someone with some sort of healing power is always a plus (but not required...). I'd be willing to kill Daeren off, if he wants to fight a dragon.
waywreth 12-14-05, 02:30 PM	Well, the only thing I'm really looking for in a questlord is someone who can really run a dragon. Dragons are some of the most challenging creatures in the game and I like to be challenged by a good GM on them. This much I promise you. Dragons are intelligent predators, at the top of the food chain and act as such. I've always felt they're harder than their CR shows. Just to clarify as well: a) This quest would last 3 weeks with a total of ~1 encounter per week. b) An EL8 Quest has 3 encounters that are each EL8. c) A young dragon in only CR6, thusly it would need allies or additional things happening during that fight. And I won't be upset if you choose Luni. :D
Pittbull 12-14-05, 02:33 PM	Looking at the rulings, all LLMadCow confirms ruling for certain is that you add the PP from the separate classes together. Which is how it works anyway. In the context of how LLMC posted, the line about ML adding together can be read as either 'it can be added together' or 'it might be added together...' Would another Elder like to look at this please? As far as I know there is only one pool of PPs. But you've still to consider the different manifesterlevels when you manifest powers.
TelinArtho 12-14-05, 02:34 PM	1. correct. the finished quest should have 3 fights that occur roughly 1/week. 2. correct - three fights at EL8. I'd even be willing to do EL8+ (8/8/9 for the three weeks) 3. correct - I screwed up - I meant a juvenile blue (CR8) - listen to what I mean :) Of course, I had a lot of fun questing with someone last time - so if I can dredge someone up - I'd like to up the ante to a young adult... much more interesting that way. Of course, someone questing with me has to be prepared for a VERY tough quest. @Luni - since waywreth stood up - I'm going to give him the go for this one. Don't worry - Daeren's not done dragon hunting...
Maraxus 12-14-05, 02:40 PM	Another thing: I guess cohorts have NPC-equipment while I quest for them but when they join me, I have to pay for their stuff myself, right?
TelinArtho 12-14-05, 02:41 PM	yup...
Myrridin 12-14-05, 03:05 PM	Of course, I had a lot of fun questing with someone last time - so if I can dredge someone up - I'd like to up the ante to a young adult... much more interesting that way. Of course, someone questing with me has to be prepared for a VERY tough quest. @Luni - since waywreth stood up - I'm going to give him the go for this one. Don't worry - Daeren's not done dragon hunting... Hmmm....can I pay some credits, and up Kalarthus up to ECL 8 or 9, and then join you? I have 27 credits, but wasn't sure on the legality of it. I guess I could just burn the 15 credits to start the character at level 8, huh? Anyways, Telin, if you're up for it, and the Pitlords are ok with it, I'll spend the 12 credits to up Kalarthus to level 8, and I'd be up for such a quest.
NiQil 12-14-05, 03:17 PM	Hmmm....can I pay some credits, and up Kalarthus up to ECL 8 or 9, and then join you? I have 27 credits, but wasn't sure on the legality of it. I guess I could just burn the 15 credits to start the character at level 8, huh? Anyways, Telin, if you're up for it, and the Pitlords are ok with it, I'll spend the 12 credits to up Kalarthus to level 8, and I'd be up for such a quest. @ Myrridin: Make sure and check the prison thread before you do....Kalarthus is in prison currently...
Ravashack 12-14-05, 03:21 PM	As far as I know there is only one pool of PPs. But you've still to consider the different manifesterlevels when you manifest powers. Yeah, that's the point. Cerebus13 is saying that MadCow ruled that the Manifester levels added up for an effective manifester level, despite everything else. So a Psion 4/Wilder 2 would manifest as a level 6 Manifester, but has a lower PP cap on each set of powers picked. I'm saying that that kind of ruling doesn't sound right, because you would have to make up more house rules to deal with everything (the reduced manifester caps not matching the actual Manifester level, for one, when the cap has been clearly stated to equal the manifester level), and the only backing in the RAW that it has is in one feat. It involves far less house rules (i.e. none) to say that Psion 4/Wilder has a Psion ML of 4 and a Wilder ML of 2. It also makes more sense given that you don't add together the caster level in divine classes or arcane classes for an effective divine/arcane caster level either.
TelinArtho 12-14-05, 03:24 PM	Hmmm....can I pay some credits, and up Kalarthus up to ECL 8 or 9, and then join you? I have 27 credits, but wasn't sure on the legality of it. I guess I could just burn the 15 credits to start the character at level 8, huh? Anyways, Telin, if you're up for it, and the Pitlords are ok with it, I'll spend the 12 credits to up Kalarthus to level 8, and I'd be up for such a quest. I think you'd have to start a new character at that level - but I'm not sure - you'd have to send a PM to Cat about it - because it definitely isn't covered... Also, it is 4 credits per level above 3rd - so if you wanted to start an ECL8 character, that would be 20 credits - not 15. And like I said - I'm willing to go with anyone - so if you can get a character in - great! Did I mention I want to start in 2-3 weeks? Daeren needs to buy a few more things before going and he's currently broke (like a reasonable store of healing items).
lonewolf 12-14-05, 03:31 PM	another question: Since you can quest to gain an item, can you also quest to upgrade an existing item? for example: If i have a Longsword +1 can I quest to make it a Longsword +3?
Pittbull 12-14-05, 03:37 PM	Yeah, that's the point. Cerebus13 is saying that MadCow ruled that the Manifester levels added up for an effective manifester level, despite everything else. So a Psion 4/Wilder 2 would manifest as a level 6 Manifester, but has a lower PP cap on each set of powers picked. I'm saying that that kind of ruling doesn't sound right, because you would have to make up more house rules to deal with everything (the reduced manifester caps not matching the actual Manifester level, for one, when the cap has been clearly stated to equal the manifester level), and the only backing in the RAW that it has is in one feat. It involves far less house rules (i.e. none) to say that Psion 4/Wilder has a Psion ML of 4 and a Wilder ML of 2. It also makes more sense given that you don't add together the caster level in divine classes or arcane classes for an effective divine/arcane caster level either. Originally Posted by SRD (Psionic Multiclass Characters) If you have levels in more than one psionic class, you combine your power points from each class to make up your reserve. You can use these power points to manifest powers from any psionic class you have. While you maintain a single reserve of power points from your class, race, and feat selections, you are still limited by the manifester level you have achieved with each power you know. Mindrogue has posted it allready, it clears out that you are limited to the sperate manifesterlevels, you can't combine them.
Myrridin 12-14-05, 03:38 PM	For the tattoo? Yeah, I sold that back. I didn't realize they cost credits to buy now, when I first created him.
MindWandererB 12-14-05, 03:42 PM	Greetings everyone :) . I'm rather new here (thank you to WizO_Paradox for the "Boards to Check Out" thread that directed me here), Greetings yourself, Zeev. Good to see someone else from the main D&D boards over here. Paradox got my attention too. And good to see you got your character in under the wire. I'll be rooting for Mindrel this week--unless, of course, he's up against Aerryl or Bolrak. BTW, did you remember to PM Pitlords telling them about your character? I don't see him on the roster, but all the other new characters have been added.
Ravashack 12-14-05, 03:43 PM	Mindrogue has posted it allready, it clears out that you are limited to the sperate manifesterlevels, you can't combine them. Thanks. Needed an Elder to say so is all. :P :)
TelinArtho 12-14-05, 03:44 PM	another question: Since you can quest to gain an item, can you also quest to upgrade an existing item? for example: If i have a Longsword +1 can I quest to make it a Longsword +3? Yes you can ( I had contemplated doing it for Daeren's last quest - but I thought the Spear of Fangs was cooler...).
Ayrynthyn 12-14-05, 03:54 PM	Hmmm....can I pay some credits, and up Kalarthus up to ECL 8 or 9, and then join you? I have 27 credits, but wasn't sure on the legality of it. I guess I could just burn the 15 credits to start the character at level 8, huh? Anyways, Telin, if you're up for it, and the Pitlords are ok with it, I'll spend the 12 credits to up Kalarthus to level 8, and I'd be up for such a quest. Not sure if this was still a question, but per the Credits thread Higher Entry: You may enter a character at a higher level. The cost is the same as with exotic races: 4° per level over lvl 3. You may only buy these levels at the beginning of your character's carreer. Once he has been active once, you cannot pay additional levels with credits but must level normally by gaining XP.
Altaris13 12-14-05, 04:08 PM	Can a bard use arcane completion items without UMD, wands specifically?
Myrridin 12-14-05, 04:11 PM	Well then, that settles it. I'll have to create my very own level 8 gladiator, and go from there with him. Thanks guys.
NiQil 12-14-05, 04:12 PM	Can a bard use arcane completion items without UMD, wands specifically? They can if the spell in question is on the bard spell list. If not, then it would require UMD. As an example, Silas is using a wand of CLW, because that spell is on the bard spell list.
Snommelp 12-14-05, 04:13 PM	Can a bard use arcane completion items without UMD, wands specifically?I'm pretty sure he can only activate it if the spell's on his spell list. Someone please correct me of I'm wrong, though; that would make Hennan's Magic Missile wand that much more deadly.
Macbrea 12-14-05, 04:16 PM	All spell casters may use wands if the spell is on their spell list no matter their level. So, yes, a Bard may use a wand of cure light wounds or a wand of invisibility. The wand does keep track of wether the spell is arcane or divine. It is a wand of X. If the Bard wishes to use a wand with a spell not on their list they will need to UMD.
Macbrea 12-14-05, 04:19 PM	And, Yes even Gorak (ranger 1, wis 6) can use the wand of cure serious wounds. If I was rich enough to buy it for him.
Ayrynthyn 12-14-05, 04:19 PM	im hoping thats the case as well, i took my interpretation from > Here < (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#spellTrigger) Spell Trigger Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Zevox 12-14-05, 05:18 PM	Greetings yourself, Zeev. Good to see someone else from the main D&D boards over here. Paradox got my attention too. And good to see you got your character in under the wire. I'll be rooting for Mindrel this week--unless, of course, he's up against Aerryl or Bolrak. Thanks MindWanderer :) . I was wondering if anyone else had showed up as a result of Paradox's ad. I'll root for your guys as well this week, presuming we don't get paired up. BTW, did you remember to PM Pitlords telling them about your character? I don't see him on the roster, but all the other new characters have been added. Uh-oh :banghead: :blush: . It would appear I forgot that part in my absorption in creating my character. Anyone know if I've any chance of getting into the roster if I send Pitlords a message about Mindrel now? I know the deadline's past, but I did post him beforehand... Zevox
NiQil 12-14-05, 05:25 PM	Thanks MindWanderer :) . I was wondering if anyone else had showed up as a result of Paradox's ad. I'll root for your guys as well this week, presuming we don't get paired up. Uh-oh :banghead: :blush: . It would appear I forgot that part in my absorption in creating my character. Anyone know if I've any chance of getting into the roster if I send Pitlords a message about Mindrel now? I know the deadline's past, but I did post him beforehand... Zevox It's certainly worth a shot. I'd PM Pitlords now. Also, if he doesn't get you paired before he posts pairings for the week, ask him afterwards and he may put you in after the fact against a monster or something.
Vathelokai 12-14-05, 05:25 PM	Anyone know if I've any chance of getting into the roster if I send Pitlords a message about Mindrel now? I know the deadline's past, but I did post him beforehand... ZevoxIf you havn't updated your character after the deadline, and your ready to go, then send a PM to Pitlords. If you're nice, then Cat will usually allow it. Hurry though. Pitlords is updating the roster as we speak.
MindWandererB 12-14-05, 05:27 PM	Uh-oh :banghead: :blush: . It would appear I forgot that part in my absorption in creating my character. Anyone know if I've any chance of getting into the roster if I send Pitlords a message about Mindrel now? I know the deadline's past, but I did post him beforehand... Technically, PM'ing is just a courtesy, and Caterane should catch the posting anyway. But if you haven't yet, do it now before the week's pairings go up. I have to admit, it will be odd thinking of your character as an abjurer... any thoughts of putting up an aasimar paladin as your second character? Or will you wait to see how Sir Zeev does in the character competition first? He's kicking butt and taking names in that coliseum, after all....
Zevox 12-14-05, 05:35 PM	Well, I've sent the PM. Heres hoping Mindrel makes it in. I have to admit, it will be odd thinking of your character as an abjurer... any thoughts of putting up an aasimar paladin as your second character? Or will you wait to see how Sir Zeev does in the character competition first? He's kicking butt and taking names in that coliseum, after all.... Actually, Zeev was a big reason I decided not to go with a Paladin for my first character here. I'm gearing Mindrel towards a certain PrC I enjoy (his background should give it away), and enjoying a magic-user (my second favorite type of character) first since I've already got Zeev over at the Creature Competition. If Zeev loses (which, whether I like it or not, I think is probable, considering Taibo's ever-growing popularity), I'll probably make a similar character in his honor here (though obviously he can't be a Knight of the Chalice), but for now I'll enjoy my second and third favorite character classes in Mindrel. :) Zevox
NiQil 12-14-05, 05:39 PM	Technically, PM'ing is just a courtesy, and Caterane should catch the posting anyway. But if you haven't yet, do it now before the week's pairings go up. I have to admit, it will be odd thinking of your character as an abjurer... any thoughts of putting up an aasimar paladin as your second character? Or will you wait to see how Sir Zeev does in the character competition first? He's kicking butt and taking names in that coliseum, after all.... Actually.... Post him or her on the Gladiators thread and send the Pitlords a PM with the link to your character sheet. ...it is required to guarantee being included in pairings. Cat may still catch it, but it's not guaranteed.
MindWandererB 12-14-05, 05:49 PM	Actually...it is required to guarantee being included in pairings. Cat may still catch it, but it's not guaranteed. When I was creating my characters, I found two different sets of instructions in various places within the rules. One said just to post the character, one said to PM Pitlords. And I guess I missed yet another set, which you just quoted, because the one I followed didn't say anything about linking the character sheet. Figures... just like WotC products, there are conflicting sources of information. Well, it wouldn't be D&D otherwise, I guess.
NiQil 12-14-05, 05:51 PM	When I was creating my characters, I found two different sets of instructions in various places within the rules. One said just to post the character, one said to PM Pitlords. And I guess I missed yet another set, which you just quoted, because the one I followed didn't say anything about linking the character sheet. Figures... just like WotC products, there are conflicting sources of information. Well, it wouldn't be D&D otherwise, I guess. The difference is, if you can point us to where the conflicts are, we can fix them fairly easily. We don't have to print new books to do it. :D
MindWandererB 12-14-05, 06:09 PM	The difference is, if you can point us to where the conflicts are, we can fix them fairly easily. We don't have to print new books to do it. :D All right then. Quick Start Guide (Characters thread, post #12): "Now write a to the Pitlords GM Avatar (or just click this icon) to anounce that your gladiator is ready to fight! Your gladiator will appear on the Roster within one or two days." No mention of linking. Basic rules (Rules thread, post #3): "Joining is surprisingly simple. All you need to do is create a character using the Standard Character Sheet, post him or her on the Characters of Gladius thread, set the title to "Ready for <date>", where <date> is the next Wednesday, and you have officially joined; your character will be fighting in the next set of pairings. " No mention of PMing at all. Starting out (Rules thread, post #7): "All you have to do is fill in this Standard Character Sheet (just remember to delete the [QUOTE=Pitlords] tag from the front and the [QUOTE] tag from the end). Once it's posted to the Characters of Gladius thread and is to your liking, edit its title line to read "Ready for <date>", where <date> is a Wednesday, and he will be paired on that Wednesday. Simple, eh? " No mention of PMing. Same post as above: "Post him or her on the Gladiators thread and send the Pitlords a PM with the link to your character sheet. This will help ensure that your character does not get accidently overlooked and added to the Roster. " PMing and linking mentioned, but as a courtesy. Arena Combat I (Rules, post #10): "All you have to do is post your character on the Gladiators thread and set his or her title line to "Ready for <date>", where the date is the next Wednesday. " No mention of PMing. That's all I can find. Five references, only two of which mention PMing and one of which mentions linking.
NiQil 12-14-05, 06:26 PM	I took your entire list there and PM'd it to Cat so that he can take a look at it and make each of those places consistantly say the same thing. Hopefully that will smooth things along for the future.
Usurpator 12-14-05, 06:32 PM	That's all I can find. Five references, only two of which mention PMing and one of which mentions linking. Ah, the good old days when only 20-30 gladiators were active at the same time, and you didn't get more than 3-4 new gladiators a week (not counting NiQil :P ). That was the time Cat actually had the time to look over each newly posted gladiator because he actually liked to do so. Currently he is probably too busy to do so and remember the last time he looked, thus the PM. I guess a lot has changed in 5 months, since the number of active gladiators/members has more than quadrupled. Last week alone I guess that more than 20 new gladiators have been entered.
NiQil 12-14-05, 06:36 PM	Ah, the good old days when only 20-30 gladiators were active at the same time, and you didn't get more than 3-4 new gladiators a week (not counting NiQil :P ). That was the time Cat actually had the time to look over each newly posted gladiator because he actually liked to do so. Currently he is probably too busy to do so and remember the last time he looked, thus the PM. I guess a lot has changed in 5 months, since the number of active gladiators/members has more than quadrupled. Last week alone I guess that more than 20 new gladiators have been entered. Keep pokin'....I'll go back to makin new characters every week. Nevermind that I have had the same ones for awhile now. I'll never live it down. Always pickin' on the fat kid LOL.
Maraxus 12-14-05, 06:46 PM	Hiho! Just looking through the new characters this week, I found Trixie. A kobold sorcerers. In the name of Zassl, I welcome you to Gladius. I realized, you have not yet found out, how enjoyable it is, to turn away from the evilness and life a happy life of gooddoing. I definitly understand you Trixie, when everybody tells you kobolds are evil, you accept it at some point, but it is not to late ... I have more ilustrated booklets, if you are interested. ;)
bluemage55 12-14-05, 07:17 PM	Sorry to be a noob, but I was wondering where you are supposed to post fight tactics for the weekly fight after the match-up has been posted.
Kaigan 12-14-05, 07:21 PM	You look to see who is running your fight, your pitlord. Then you can either email or PM them to him or her.
Ariel23 12-15-05, 12:29 AM	Hiho! Just looking through the new characters this week, I found Trixie. A kobold sorcerers. In the name of Zassl, I welcome you to Gladius. I realized, you have not yet found out, how enjoyable it is, to turn away from the evilness and life a happy life of gooddoing. I definitly understand you Trixie, when everybody tells you kobolds are evil, you accept it at some point, but it is not to late ... I have more ilustrated booklets, if you are interested. ;) "People always talk about "good" and "evil" but I never thought anyone actually believed all that. What an exciting day for me to finally meet someone who does. I wonder, would you tell a lion not to kill or a baboon not to throw things? Seems like a waste of time to me. " *shrug* "Nice to meet you and good luck with changing the world."
TheMagister 12-15-05, 02:56 AM	Yes, this is munchkin of me, and no, I don't care. Can Sdentch (ECL 7 after this week) quest for an Level 5 Expert (DMG under NPC classes) Armor/weapon smith as an ally? There's really nothing that says she can't... TM
Usurpator 12-15-05, 03:08 AM	Yes, this is munchkin of me, and no, I don't care. Can Sdentch (ECL 7 after this week) quest for an Level 5 Expert (DMG under NPC classes) Armor/weapon smith as an ally? There's really nothing that says she can't... TM Two things: 1. She can of course take a Lvl 5 Expert as Leadership cohort if she wants to and has a feat to burn. The cohort will not be able to craft anything though. (That is in the rules) 2. There's also really nothing that say that Sdentch cannot incinerate her opponents with a 40d6 eldritch blast attack (no save). On the other hand, there is also nothing that says she can, therefore she can't. Rules generally say what you can do, rarely do they say what you can't. :)
MindWandererB 12-15-05, 03:09 AM	Can Sdentch (ECL 7 after this week) quest for an Level 5 Expert (DMG under NPC classes) Armor/weapon smith as an ally? You probably could, but there's not much point: First of all, allies may not craft any items; neither mundane nor magical ones.
DTFarstar 12-15-05, 04:24 AM	My first fights in the CoCo. Out of all the newer gladiators... well out of all the gladiators really, I got nearly the worst possible pairing for Challak, and a pretty even pairing for Darius. It will be interesting to see how it turns out and if the assorted Pitlords like the way I organized my tactics.
MindWandererB 12-15-05, 04:46 AM	For those of you who haven't noticed my royal screwup with my mount... the one time I don't bother to ask a question.... Anyway, now I have two: Aerryl Nalladar's Dire Bat has switched out the regular feats for custom feats, but you cannot switch regular feats for your animal companion. Aside from the fact that I can't have the bat at all yet, I scoured the Rules for custom feats on allies. I found rules on paying money for custom feats on purchased animals, and rules for paying credits for custom feats on other non-classed allies, but I couldn't find any kind of restriction on animal companions. So when I do miniquest for the bat, is there any way to get custom feats and skill points? With credits, money, or anything else? It seems odd that you can buy a horse with custom feats and skills, but a druid can't get one by any means (even by buying it and then bonding it). It also seems odd that you can advance the companion however you please when its hit dice go up, but you can't choose its original feats and skills. In case Telin allows you to switch allies, you do know that: "A heavy horse cannot fight while carrying a rider." right? Just making sure. My replacement mount, which TelinArtho is graciously allowing me to use, is a heavy horse. I don't plan on using it to attack anyway (probably) since it sucks at it, but I can't tell if the Combat Riding package or the druid's Link or both put together will circumvent this problem. The Combat Riding package seems to include several "bonus features" not included in the tricks that comprise it (such as armor proficiency) And actually, I have another question, although it doesn't affect me at all. The rules around here seem to state that you can't use a trained only skill with 1/2 a rank. This is never stated in the core rules, but there is a feat in Complete Adventurer called Jack of All Trades that gives you 1/2 a rank in all skills in which you have no ranks, thereby allowing you to make all skill checks as if you were trained. Although this is not a core source, it clarifies the rule pretty clearly.
DTFarstar 12-15-05, 05:02 AM	Well, paying money doesn't really make sense, but I would suggest we allow credits to change the basic feats an animal companion comes with. Not sure about skills points. Maybe like 1 credit per 5 skill points reassigned and 1 credit per reassigned feat + 2 credits for the priveledge or something like that. I would say no to it attacking while you riding it. Combat Riding allows it to attack without being pushed, but it's pretty simply stated that they cannot attack, not that they aren't trained to attack while being ridden. Keep in mind they have other penalties to attack anyway. Hooves act as secondary attacks for non-warhorses. They just aren't bred for combat, and no matter how well trained it doesn't make up for the way they are born. That's just my 2 cp.
DTFarstar 12-15-05, 05:08 AM	Oh, as for the 1 rank or half rank thing, I think this pretty much clears that up. Trained Only: If this notation is included in the skill name line, you must have at least 1 rank in the skill to use it. If it is omitted, the skill can be used untrained (with a rank of 0). If any special notes apply to trained or untrained use, they are covered in the Untrained section (see below). At least 1 rank is pretty clear, I would say.
Dracazar 12-15-05, 07:17 AM	Sanctuary: Any opponent attempting to strike or otherwise directly attack the warded creature, even with a targeted spell, must attempt a Will save. If the save succeeds, the opponent can attack normally and is unaffected by that casting of the spell. If the save fails, the opponent can’t follow through with the attack, that part of its action is lost, and it can’t directly attack the warded creature for the duration of the spell. Those not attempting to attack the subject remain unaffected. This spell does not prevent the warded creature from being attacked or affected by area or effect spells. The subject cannot attack without breaking the spell but may use nonattack spells or otherwise act. Sleep: Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting] Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 round Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Area: One or more living creatures within a 10-ft.-radius burst Duration: 1 min./level Saving Throw: Will negates Spell Resistance: Yes A sleep spell causes a magical slumber to come upon 4 Hit Dice of creatures. Creatures with the fewest HD are affected first. Among creatures with equal HD, those who are closest to the spell’s point of origin are affected first. Hit Dice that are not sufficient to affect a creature are wasted. Sleeping creatures are helpless. Slapping or wounding awakens an affected creature, but normal noise does not. Awakening a creature is a standard action (an application of the aid another action). Sleep does not target unconscious creatures, constructs, or undead creatures. Material Component: A pinch of fine sand, rose petals, or a live cricket. I'm not sure, if inside Sanctuary, may the foe attack you with sleep?
Abyssal Stalker 12-15-05, 08:25 AM	Hello everybody! I'm new here but hoping to get my character running next week.
Pittbull 12-15-05, 08:29 AM	Hello everybody! I'm new here but hoping to get my character running next week. Yeah, hello to you! Just click to the Quickstartguide (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5179917), it'll help to post your character in the right way. Have fun!
Vathelokai 12-15-05, 08:31 AM	Hello everybody! I'm new here but hoping to get my character running next week. Welcome. And don't be affraid to barage us with questions!
Abyssal Stalker 12-15-05, 09:39 AM	Welcome. And don't be affraid to barage us with questions! Thanks! Where can I find more info about poisons (I don't have the books), craft DC's and applying them to weapons?
waywreth 12-15-05, 09:42 AM	Thanks! Where can I find more info about poisons (I don't have the books), craft DC's and applying them to weapons? I'd start here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/naturalSpecialAbilities.htm#poison) (you may have to scroll down the Poison entry).
Macbrea 12-15-05, 11:22 AM	I am trying to figure out something for an ally that people might be able to answer. An Eagle is a CR 1/2 creature at 1 HD and small. An Advanced Elite profile Eagle with 3 HD and medium size. Is this calculated as: Base Eagle: 1/2 Cr Elite Profile: +1 Cr +2 Hit Dice: +0 Cr Size increase: +1 Cr Does this make him CR 2, 21/2, or 3 ? And what level would you have to be to bring him into the arena?
SauroGrenom 12-15-05, 11:54 AM	What is the protocol for rebuilding a character? I've been considering rebuilding Rebreg, but I'm not sure how that is done.
Abyssal Stalker 12-15-05, 01:21 PM	I'd start here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/naturalSpecialAbilities.htm#poison) (you may have to scroll down the Poison entry). There it is, thanks!
SoulLord 12-15-05, 01:49 PM	I'm not sure, if inside Sanctuary, may the foe attack you with sleep? you can't target your foe without having to make a will save but since sleep is an area spell just center it next to him and it should work just fine.
oxybe 12-15-05, 02:33 PM	Hey hey! first time on the CoCo! I always thought to try this out, but never really applied myself to it. so i created my first psion and decided to throw him in the lion's den and hope all works out ok :P
KerlanRayne 12-15-05, 03:04 PM	What would Mithral Breastplate Barding for a horse cost? (200 gp x 2) +4,000 gp = 4,400 gp or (200gp +4,000 gp) x 2 = 8,400 gpI only got one reply. Any other thoughts? KerlanRayne
waywreth 12-15-05, 03:08 PM	I only got one reply. Any other thoughts? KerlanRayne (200gp +4,000 gp) x 2 = 8,400 gp Overall cost of armor is doubled... so you take final cost of armor x2. Makes sense too - using alot more of the raw materials (mithril in this case).
Macbrea 12-15-05, 04:15 PM	I asked that same question earlier and got the opposite answer. In my example I gave Rhino hide armor. humanoid Hide Armor 15gp Masterwork +150gp Rhino hide +1000gp +2 ench +4000gp = 5,165 gp as per the book Barding for small mount Hide Armor 30gp Masterwork +150gp Rhino hide +1000gp +2 ench +4000gp = 5,180gp According to what was decided you only double the base cost of the armor. The fact that it is made out of some strange material had no bearring on the armor itself. You would double be base cost of the item then add all the adders.
Ayrynthyn 12-15-05, 04:17 PM	Hey hey! first time on the CoCo! I always thought to try this out, but never really applied myself to it. so i created my first psion and decided to throw him in the lion's den and hope all works out ok :P Welcome and good luck. Fire away the questions at will!! Re:Prison / Violations for something you cant use (from the prison thread) Ariel23 brings up a valid point though, carrying gear that may be useful to others you group with may be of significant merit. Especially with the new Merc setup starting to take effect... I recind my understanding, and would like to see some other discussion on it. I don't think it should be a violation to buy and pay full price for an item you cannot use. we can debat the good idea/bad idea-ness of it all day, but it still shouldnt be 'illeagal'.
NiQil 12-15-05, 04:22 PM	Welcome and good luck. Fire away the questions at will!! Re:Prison / Violations for something you cant use (from the prison thread) Ariel23 brings up a valid point though, carrying gear that may be useful to others you group with may be of significant merit. Especially with the new Merc setup starting to take effect... I recind my understanding, and would like to see some other discussion on it. I don't think it should be a violation to buy and pay full price for an item you cannot use. we can debat the good idea/bad idea-ness of it all day, but it still shouldnt be 'illeagal'. If you are buying something that your character cannot use, but are purchasing it with the intent that others can use it (allies in team fights, mercs, etc), then you should probably designate it as such on your sheet. A fighter having a wand of magic missile will get violations for that 10/10 times...but if you have a note next to that wand saying "for merc use" or "for ally use only" or something to that effect, then it is not an error, as the sheet is noted that the character will not be using it.
Usurpator 12-15-05, 04:27 PM	If you are buying something that your character cannot use, but are purchasing it with the intent that others can use it (allies in team fights, mercs, etc), then you should probably designate it as such on your sheet. A fighter having a wand of magic missile will get violations for that 10/10 times...but if you have a note next to that wand saying "for merc use" or "for ally use only" or something to that effect, then it is not an error, as the sheet is noted that the character will not be using it. I guess a PM with a warning will suffice in such cases. Nexa still has a scroll of mage armor that didn't get used up in her quest with Daeren, who cast it on her from the scrolls, saving on potion money. I am not going to sell it, there might be another quest with a arcane caster in the future. I would be amazed if Nexa was put in prison for this. And I am certainly not planning to mark it.
NiQil 12-15-05, 04:33 PM	I guess a PM with a warning will suffice in such cases. Nexa still has a scroll of mage armor that didn't get used up in her quest with Daeren, who cast it on her from the scrolls, saving on potion money. I am not going to sell it, there might be another quest with a arcane caster in the future. I would be amazed if Nexa was put in prison for this. And I am certainly not planning to mark it. I would recommend marking it, as anyone that chooses to report it would be within their rights to do so, and if left unmarked for long enough, could get Nexa in prison. A simple asterik followed by a small note of "for ally use only" would be enough to avoid this. Mercs being used have changed the purchasing rules like this a little, but before mercs, there would be no question that this would be a violation, as the character cannot use the item in question, making it a mistake that would need to be rectified.
Macbrea 12-15-05, 04:37 PM	I see no problem with a character purchasing something they cannot use personally as long as they mark it in some fashion. Here is a suggestion: Mektos (Druid 3/Sorceror 1) Scroll of Shield of Faith [CL 1]Unusable [25 gp] GreatswordNon-Prof [15lbs][50 gp] This way a character can store up items for use by Mercenaries they hire.
NiQil 12-15-05, 04:43 PM	I see no problem with a character purchasing something they cannot use personally as long as they mark it in some fashion. Here is a suggestion: Mektos (Druid 3/Sorceror 1) Scroll of Shield of Faith [CL 1]Unusable [25 gp] GreatswordNon-Prof [15lbs][50 gp] This way a character can store up items for use by Mercenaries they hire. Exactly. It's not a violation as long as it's marked. However, rather than use unusable or non-proficiency (which doesn't prevent use), I would use "ally only" so that there is no question why it is there. This really only applies when hiring mercs or before quests/campaigns when you will have allies...all other allies will be on your sheet and should have their equipment listed as a part of their entry on your sheet, not yours. So for those instances when a character is purchasing equipment for a hired merc, or for quests/campaigns, a simple ally only tag eliminates all confusion.
Snommelp 12-15-05, 04:55 PM	I would recommend marking it, as anyone that chooses to report it would be within their rights to do so, and if left unmarked for long enough, could get Nexa in prison.Imprisoned with no violation... that's flawed logic if I've ever seen it. I've said it before and I'll say it again: buying an item the character cannot use is not a violation. Apparently you partially agree, or else you wouldn't have this whole "let's mark it!" thing going. Poor or strange buying choices are not violations, and they shouldn't need to be marked; a pitlord should know that a fighter without UMD can't use that wand of Magic Missiles, so why should we make the character sheets that much bigger? Posts have a character limit, and every unnecessary addition to the sheet is that much less space that can be used for a fight.
Usurpator 12-15-05, 04:58 PM	I would recommend marking it, as anyone that chooses to report it would be within their rights to do so, and if left unmarked for long enough, could get Nexa in prison. A simple asterik followed by a small note of "for ally use only" would be enough to avoid this. Mercs being used have changed the purchasing rules like this a little, but before mercs, there would be no question that this would be a violation, as the character cannot use the item in question, making it a mistake that would need to be rectified. Guess I'll have all my characters add the disclaimer 'all items might be used for obfuscation and misdirection purposes'. Maybe there comes a time when Nexa wants to use her scroll to trick opponents into sundering it and profiting from an AoO. That surely doesn't fall under ally use. The fact that you might not see its use does not mean it cannot be used in any fashion. And it certainly isn't an error. There are plenty 'real' errors to go around, I suggest we put our primary effort in detecting those instead of focusing energy on eliminating these non-errors. If they become a problem and cause much Pitlord confusion, then by all means we should. Until then I think the issue is not worth the administrative effort, let alone putting someone into prison for it. Besides, those tags for superscript mess up the alignment of my sheets, making them harder to edit.
NiQil 12-15-05, 05:14 PM	Imprisoned with no violation... that's flawed logic if I've ever seen it. I've said it before and I'll say it again: buying an item the character cannot use is not a violation. Apparently you partially agree, or else you wouldn't have this whole "let's mark it!" thing going. Poor or strange buying choices are not violations, and they shouldn't need to be marked; a pitlord should know that a fighter without UMD can't use that wand of Magic Missiles, so why should we make the character sheets that much bigger? Posts have a character limit, and every unnecessary addition to the sheet is that much less space that can be used for a fight. I agree that there are reasons to purchase things for allies. I do not agree that purchasing something you cannot use is not a violation. Hence the necessity to mark said ally purchases. Let me give you an example. An old character of mine (a range), purchases scrolls of shillelagh to use in fights. He was reported for a violation. The reason? Shillelagh are not on the ranger spell list, so rangers can't use them. I made an error there...they were supposed to be oils. In fact, I believe it was you that ran that fight and allowed me to change them because they were an error. Now...how exactly is that not an error? I never had any intention of letting anyone else use those scrolls, and I wrote tactics with the scrolls in mind, only to realize my error at the last second. Are you going to say that was not a violation? When one is viewing a character sheet, there is no way for someone to know the intent behind something unless it is marked in some way. There would be no reason to assume that those scrolls were anything other than a mistake that needed to be corrected. Looking at a sheet of a fighter with a wand of fireball would not give any indication as to why that wand was there, and should be looked at as a violation unless it is marked. It has to be done that way to ensure that everyone is treated equally.
NiQil 12-15-05, 05:17 PM	Guess I'll have all my characters add the disclaimer 'all items might be used for obfuscation and misdirection purposes'. Maybe there comes a time when Nexa wants to use her scroll to trick opponents into sundering it and profiting from an AoO. That surely doesn't fall under ally use. The fact that you might not see its use does not mean it cannot be used in any fashion. And it certainly isn't an error. There are plenty 'real' errors to go around, I suggest we put our primary effort in detecting those instead of focusing energy on eliminating these non-errors. If they become a problem and cause much Pitlord confusion, then by all means we should. Until then I think the issue is not worth the administrative effort, let alone putting someone into prison for it. Besides, those tags for superscript mess up the alignment of my sheets, making them harder to edit. The superscript was one example...there are other ways to do it. And I consider this just as much of a real error as any other. And if should be curtailed now, so that we don't ever have to worry about Pitlord confusion, rather than wait to do so until after the fact. Since illegal items aren't to be allowed into fights anyway, your example doesn't work, and can just as easily be accomplished with something that your character might actually use. Bear in mind here, that as long as the prison has been open, the discussion we are having has been moot. Reporting invalid equipment on a character has always been a valid violation. There is no reason for that to change now. Hence the need to mark the intended use for anything the primary character can't use.
Usurpator 12-15-05, 05:35 PM	@NiQil: I just think we have to agree to disagree here. Your example is one of illegal tactics, not a violation. If you go and mark a Huge Greatsword on a sheet of a medium-size character as a violation, and the player has to explain that he plans on using item after he is enlarged just to get out of prison, that's just not right. I don't expect a random reviewer to understand everything of the devious plans I have for some characters' tactics. On the contrary, I expect them *not* to see everything, since they might be my opponent for next match. If reviewers are worried that I might not be able to use an item and therefore write illegal tactics, they are free to PM me. I do expect Pitlords to slap me when I propose illegal tactics that make use items in a way that my gladiator cannot.
Snommelp 12-15-05, 05:39 PM	Let me give you an example. An old character of mine (a range), purchases scrolls of shillelagh to use in fights. He was reported for a violation. The reason? Shillelagh are not on the ranger spell list, so rangers can't use them. I made an error there...they were supposed to be oils. In fact, I believe it was you that ran that fight and allowed me to change them because they were an error. Now...how exactly is that not an error? I never had any intention of letting anyone else use those scrolls, and I wrote tactics with the scrolls in mind, only to realize my error at the last second. Are you going to say that was not a violation?It was indeed I who ran that fight. And yes, it was an error, but not a violation. It was an error because you thought you could use them, and it was you and only you who brought the error up with the intent of correcting it. Your opponent would not have cared less if you owned items you were not capable of using, and if I the pitlord had used them, that would have been a violation on my part, not yours. When one is viewing a character sheet, there is no way for someone to know the intent behind something unless it is marked in some way. There would be no reason to assume that those scrolls were anything other than a mistake that needed to be corrected. Looking at a sheet of a fighter with a wand of fireball would not give any indication as to why that wand was there, and should be looked at as a violation unless it is marked. It has to be done that way to ensure that everyone is treated equally.Such mistakes are often mentioned right here in the Tavern. The argument that they need to be reported someplace therefore doesn't fly. The superscript was one example...there are other ways to do it. And I consider this just as much of a real error as any other. And if should be curtailed now, so that we don't ever have to worry about Pitlord confusion, rather than wait to do so until after the fact. Since illegal items aren't to be allowed into fights anyway, your example doesn't work, and can just as easily be accomplished with something that your character might actually use.So items that are in the SRD can be labeled "illegal" now, just because someone's using them in a unique fashion? I was under the impression that the only items labeled "illegal" were those not in the SRD and without credits spent to buy them.Bear in mind here, that as long as the prison has been open, the discussion we are having has been moot. Reporting invalid equipment on a character has always been a valid violation. There is no reason for that to change now. Hence the need to mark the intended use for anything the primary character can't use.As far as I know, all of the invalid equipment in the prison up to this point has been illegal according to the definition I presented above. If that wasn't the case, we certainly would have had this discussion long ago. And besides, precedent isn't automatically right. It was a precedent that mounts were equipment, until we changed it. It was a precedent that bats and toads couldn't deliver touch attacks until we changed it. Precedence is no argument.
Usurpator 12-15-05, 05:55 PM	The most classic example of unusable equipment being a Psi-character with powerstones but no ranks in Psicraft. This is not a violation in my book, but I will usually post or PM about it when I see it, since the player most likely intends to use the powerstones. Usually this requires a change skill ranks.
NiQil 12-15-05, 06:04 PM	The most classic example of unusable equipment being a Psi-character with powerstones but no ranks in Psicraft. This is not a violation in my book, but I will usually post or PM about it when I see it, since the player most likely intends to use the powerstones. Usually this requires a change skill ranks. Another is a cleric with the magic domain with an arcane scroll that he cannot use due to his Int being too low to use it. Both your example and mine have been consistantly reported as violations. And I believe both of them are.
Snommelp 12-15-05, 06:10 PM	From the Prison thread: Generally speaking, as long as your character is made using the SRD (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/home.html) and The Rules of Gladius (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=448520), and all the rules are applied correctly, you will not have to worry about any violation tags. That being said, everyone makes mistakes and if you are lucky, yours will only be minor.So tell me, NiQil, which of those two sources is a monk with a scroll of fly going against? According to the SRD, it can happen, and nothing in the Rules of Gladius says that it can't.
Usurpator 12-15-05, 06:15 PM	Another is a cleric with the magic domain with an arcane scroll that he cannot use due to his Int being too low to use it. Both your example and mine have been consistantly reported as violations. And I believe both of them are. So an Int 12 character with an arcane scroll of Fly would be in violation? Even if his expended equipment list shows a scroll of Fox's Cunning? Or does the character suddenly is thrown in prison because he doesn't have the money to buy a new scroll of Fox's Cunning before next fight? Is a violation dependent on what combination of equipment you have? Is an 12 Cha Clr/Sor with the Charm domain and an arcane scroll of Fly in violation? EDIT: another good one: is a character with oil of shillelagh, but without a club or quarterstaff in violation? EDIT2: Even better, a character with Weapon Focus: Quarterstaff, but with no quarterstaff in his equipment. I say no. Such things might deserve a pointer, but they do no warrant a prison sentence. Post it in the tavern, not in prison.
NiQil 12-15-05, 06:17 PM	From the Prison thread: So tell me, NiQil, which of those two sources is a monk with a scroll of fly going against? According to the SRD, it can happen, and nothing in the Rules of Gladius says that it can't. Well, since he is not a caster of any kind, he can't use scrolls unless he has ranks in UMD, per the SRD. If no such ranks exist on the character, that would be a violation. We can go around and around about this, if you like. All we are doing here is exchanging differing opinions at this point. Since this is the way that LLMC ran the Prison, I am going to continue to run it this way until either he comes back and/or tells me to make a change, or Cat tells me to make a change. All we can do is agree to disagree at this point, because we are going nowhere fast.
Sindorin 12-15-05, 06:18 PM	I still honestly don't feel the need to nark every single thing I find wrong with someone's character as a post in the prison thread. A simple PM telling the person that you see something wrong should suffice... I know a few of you who have helped me this way, and I have helped some as well... Oh, right, it is now worth credits when you nark someone. pshh...
Maraxus 12-15-05, 06:18 PM	I am trying to figure out something for an ally that people might be able to answer. An Eagle is a CR 1/2 creature at 1 HD and small. An Advanced Elite profile Eagle with 3 HD and medium size. Is this calculated as: Base Eagle: 1/2 Cr Elite Profile: +1 Cr +2 Hit Dice: +0 Cr Size increase: +1 Cr Does this make him CR 2, 21/2, or 3 ? And what level would you have to be to bring him into the arena? First, there was somewhere a rule, that you can't advance a creature by less hit dies then +1CR. Probably, you would get it allowed, if you took the 2 hit die for 1 CR, but not for 0. On the other hand, I think 1/2+1 get's CR 1 in D&D, but I'm not sure, if this counts for CoCO allies, too. If you get a CR3 creature over all, that has no ECL, then you can use it not before level 7.
NiQil 12-15-05, 06:19 PM	So an Int 12 character with an arcane scroll of Fly would be in violation? Even if his expended equipment list shows a scroll of Fox's Cunning? Or does the character suddenly is thrown in prison because he doesn't have the money to buy a new scroll of Fox's Cunning before next fight? Is a violation dependent on what combination of equipment you have? Is an 12 Cha Clr/Sor with the Charm domain and an arcane scroll of Fly in violation? EDIT: another good one: is a character with oil of shillelagh, but without a club or quarterstaff in violation? I say no. Such things might deserve a pointer, but they do no warrant a prison sentence. Post it in the tavern, not in prison. Except that is the reason the prison was created....to keep those types of posts all in one place, where they can be tracked. You would also want to post those in the prison to earn credits. Again...until I'm told otherwise, or until LLMC shows up and takes the reigns of the Prison back, the status quo will remain.
Usurpator 12-15-05, 06:27 PM	First, there was somewhere a rule, that you can't advance a creature by less hit dies then +1CR. Probably, you would get it allowed, if you took the 2 hit die for 1 CR, but not for 0. On the other hand, I think 1/2+1 get's CR 1 in D&D, but I'm not sure, if this counts for CoCO allies, too. If you get a CR3 creature over all, that has no ECL, then you can use it not before level 7. My line of thinking would be: Advancing costs +1 CR for each 1-3 HD extra. You cannot advance a creature for free. You can just keep the fractional CR's, no need to convert to whole ones. If you can use a creature with a CR of your ECL-4, and you are ECL 6, you cannot use a creature of 2 1/2 CR in the arena, since it is a 1/2 CR above the maximum.
Snommelp 12-15-05, 06:28 PM	Well, since he is not a caster of any kind, he can't use scrolls unless he has ranks in UMD, per the SRD. If no such ranks exist on the character, that would be a violation.He can't use them per the SRD, but he can own them, also per the SRD. We can go around and around about this, if you like. All we are doing here is exchanging differing opinions at this point.Actually, I've got a fact or two in my arguments. For example: FACT: It is legal, per the SRD, for a character to own an item that he can't use. OPINION: It should not be a violation if it's not illegal. But, since you are choosing to respond to my facts with opinions and facts that have no bearing on the argument, yes, at this point we must agree to disagree, because you are right; we are getting nowhere fast.
NiQil 12-15-05, 06:34 PM	He can't use them per the SRD, but he can own them, also per the SRD. Actually, I've got a fact or two in my arguments. For example: FACT: It is legal, per the SRD, for a character to own an item that he can't use. OPINION: It should not be a violation if it's not illegal. But, since you are choosing to respond to my facts with opinions and facts that have no bearing on the argument, yes, at this point we must agree to disagree, because you are right; we are getting nowhere fast. I tell ya what. If you, or anyone else, thinks that you would do a better job as Prisonlord, by all means...step up and do so. I'll be more than happy to recommend to Cat that you are willing to put in the time and effort for it. I'm only upholding the rules as they are now. Since I started doing this earlier this week, I've gotten nothing but grief for it. I don't need the stress and aggravation.
Snommelp 12-15-05, 06:41 PM	I tell ya what. If you, or anyone else, thinks that you would do a better job as Prisonlord, by all means...step up and do so. I'll be more than happy to recommend to Cat that you are willing to put in the time and effort for it. I'm only upholding the rules as they are now. Since I started doing this earlier this week, I've gotten nothing but grief for it. I don't need the stress and aggravation. This has nothing to do with you being the Prisonlord; if you had not taken that position and this debate came up, we would both still have the same stances and the same arguments. Please, don't take my comments to mean what they don't. I am not arguing about your job as Prisonlord, I am arguing about rules, which I would do (and often do) with anyone, regardless of their position as GM, Elder, guildmaster, or anything else.
Usurpator 12-15-05, 06:56 PM	I tell ya what. If you, or anyone else, thinks that you would do a better job as Prisonlord, by all means...step up and do so. I'll be more than happy to recommend to Cat that you are willing to put in the time and effort for it. I'm only upholding the rules as they are now. Since I started doing this earlier this week, I've gotten nothing but grief for it. I don't need the stress and aggravation. NiQil, are you the new Prisonlord? When this did occur? :eek: I must have missed it entirely. Obviously, my comments have nothing to do with your position, which I wasn't even aware of until now. As Snommelp said, blissfully unaware as I was of your position, I was having this discussion without any consideration of position or person. If you are the new Prisonlord, I'll abide by your rules, even if we disagree.
SauroGrenom 12-15-05, 07:01 PM	This has nothing to do with you being the Prisonlord; if you had not taken that position and this debate came up, we would both still have the same stances and the same arguments. Please, don't take my comments to mean what they don't. I am not arguing about your job as Prisonlord, I am arguing about rules, which I would do (and often do) with anyone, regardless of their position as GM, Elder, guildmaster, or anything else. :tiphat: Chears to that!
TroubleWolf 12-15-05, 07:22 PM	Greetings and Salutations! This is my first post in CoCo. I've been doing some reading the last couple of days, trying to get a feeling for things. I'll grant you, I've only taken cursory glances here and there, but I'm sure it'll all fall into place as things progress. I have a question which I'm sure has been asked many times, but as the damnable search feature is still MIA, I thought I'd toss it out again with my introduction. In "Rules of Gladius: Arena Combat II", under the heading "What exactly is the environment like in the Arena?", it states that the environment in the arena "always does its best to be as beneficial to both gladiators as possible". May I assume, then, that even while battling a foe with no special vision, the light inside the Arena would be dim enough that it wouldn't interfere with a character's "Light Sensitivity"? I realize there is still the possibility of a Daylight spell going off, but for normal lighting purposes, is the lighting lower than "bright sunlight"?
Luni 12-15-05, 07:23 PM	I think I'm going to have to side with NiQiL here. What happens when someone uses one of these illegal items in a fight, and the Pitlord misses it. There are a small handful of people that have items they can't use, and I think most of them have the items because they "think" they can use it, not because they want to give it to allies.
Luni 12-15-05, 07:25 PM	Greetings and Salutations! This is my first post in CoCo. I've been doing some reading the last couple of days, trying to get a feeling for things. I'll grant you, I've only taken cursory glances here and there, but I'm sure it'll all fall into place as things progress. I have a question which I'm sure has been asked many times, but as the damnable search feature is still MIA, I thought I'd toss it out again with my introduction. In "Rules of Gladius: Arena Combat II", under the heading "What exactly is the environment like in the Arena?", it states that the environment in the arena "always does its best to be as beneficial to both gladiators as possible". May I assume, then, that even while battling a foe with no special vision, the light inside the Arena would be dim enough that it wouldn't interfere with a character's "Light Sensitivity"? I realize there is still the possibility of a Daylight spell going off, but for normal lighting purposes, is the lighting lower than "bright sunlight"? I imagine it has heightened light spells hanging in midair every 20'. :) Don't worry about Light Senstivity unless you are facing a celestial.
Snommelp 12-15-05, 07:53 PM	What happens when someone uses one of these illegal items in a fight, and the Pitlord misses it.Then it will be pointed out in the FotW thread, won't it? If nobody points it out there, then nobody would have noticed it to call it a violation. There are a small handful of people that have items they can't use, and I think most of them have the items because they "think" they can use it, not because they want to give it to allies.But we can't know their motivation for buying the items without asking them. It could be they have a perfectly legitimate reason; is it still a violation if they're planning on using it in a way that is perfectly legal but out of the ordinary? There are gladiators out there with bags of flour; I'm pretty sure they don't have ranks in "Profession: Cooking." Are they in violation because they have an item which they can't and won't use for its intended purpose?
Luni 12-15-05, 08:11 PM	@Snommelp: Let me rephrase. I'm not concerned about fighters buying wands of fireballs, or anyone buying bags of flour. I'm primarily concerned about a Psion buying a Stone of Dispel Psionics, with his 12 Int. I'm concerned about Chaotic Good Clerics purchasing scrolls of Prot from Good/Chaos. I'm concerned about clerics with the Magic Domain, buying arcane scrolls without having the Int to cast them. When I came here, back in May/June, the 3 things I listed above were happening. Tactics were being written assuming they could use the following items. I admit, no one is perfect, but who goes over every fight looking for mistakes?
TheMagister 12-15-05, 08:29 PM	...but who goes over every fight looking for mistakes? Telin. (ducks) I'm picking on him a lot, lately...I wonder what's up with me? TM
TelinArtho 12-15-05, 09:00 PM	Telin. (ducks) I'm picking on him a lot, lately...I wonder what's up with me? TM It seems that a lot have been picking on me lately... but I'm not one to go cry in a corner... I'll just send Foreman after you... There was a time that I read through a lot of the fights and posted errors that I saw - regardless of whether it was my fight or not. Since I saw so few of those comments acknowledged or even appreciated (a few even told me to "keep my nose" out...), plus I've been pretty busy with my own things - in terms of fights, quests, my characters, etc - so I've just no time.
Book5 12-15-05, 09:12 PM	Greetings and Salutations! Hi! :D Welcome to the 1337 3.5 rule master's playground! About the arena... I have this dream.. one day I will have two aquatic opponents.. or two opponents with natural flight... I plan to make the arena "accomodating" Other things include - grass for entangles, rocks for scavanged sling bullets or magic stone spells (not that sling bullets are expensive). The lighting of course... umm yeah, If its helpful to one side, and doesn't directly detriment to other then there is more leeway than most pitlord bother to enact.
TelinArtho 12-15-05, 09:14 PM	NiQil, are you the new Prisonlord? When this did occur? :eek: I must have missed it entirely. Obviously, my comments have nothing to do with your position, which I wasn't even aware of until now. As Snommelp said, blissfully unaware as I was of your position, I was having this discussion without any consideration of position or person. If you are the new Prisonlord, I'll abide by your rules, even if we disagree. It was a quiet ceremony between myself, Cat and NiQil. Since I spoke first and offered it to NiQil - Niqil got the job... And honestly, if he gets tired of it, I'll pick it up myself, but bear in mind I'm even more of a tight-ass about these things than he is...
Book5 12-15-05, 09:17 PM	There was a time that I read through a lot of the fights and posted errors that I saw - regardless of whether it was my fight or not. Since I saw so few of those comments acknowledged or even appreciated (a few even told me to "keep my nose" out...), plus I've been pretty busy with my own things - in terms of fights, quests, my characters, etc - so I've just no time. Telin, just let me say that while I may or may not have the presence of mind to always acknowledge your comments, I will always appreciate any statements/advice/condemnation you have regarding my fights. The same goes for pretty much anyone else... to a lesser or greater extent. Honestly I figure the third person concerns are more reliable than the vested interests of the player's comments.
King Uther 12-15-05, 09:18 PM	@NiQil Hey, I'll back you. being the "lord" over quests is easy, as all I usually do is answer some questions from a newbie, get them on the right track, and watch progress from there. Prisonlord probably is a pain in some respects. Just know you have a voice backing you should anyone argue with you.
Snommelp 12-15-05, 09:50 PM	When I came here, back in May/June, the 3 things I listed above were happening. Tactics were being written assuming they could use the following items. I admit, no one is perfect, but who goes over every fight looking for mistakes?Who goes over every character sheet looking for errors? NiQil does his runs every now and then (and did so long before he became Prisonlord), but generally it's the opponents who catch violations, and they're the ones who usually find mistakes in fights. And I'll say again: even in the cases you mentioned, there is no technical violation. Everything bought is still legal. We're more than free to ask the players in question if they realize that they can't use their purchased items; in fact, I'd say we're encouraged to do so. We just might catch someone who didn't realize it, and they'll take it to the Character Changes thread and get approved by Cat and everything will be happiness and rainbows again, but it's not a violation. Nothing illegal has happened. Uther: I approve most heartily of your sentiment, but please know that a title isn't going to sway me in any way in any argument. If I think a rule's wrong or being misinterpreted, I'll continue arguing so until convinced, whether I'm arguing against a new player or the GM.
Pittbull 12-16-05, 04:53 AM	NiQil, first of all, congrats for being the Prisonlord! It's a tough job, which takes a lot time. Thank you for doing this for us. I like the point, Luni brought up, so I back your style running the prison, too. But, please, remove the tag from Barthleby, he's lawful good and not guilty. It was only a mistake of the protocol, please..... ;)
TheMagister 12-16-05, 05:09 AM	Introducing Hauber Bulwark, a cleric specializing in making his Gladiators live longer. Check him for errors while you ponder how he could help your melee character make his Will save or survive a dissolving weapon or energy ray! TM
MindWandererB 12-16-05, 05:34 AM	And while you're checking him out, take a look at Kemman Tovaritsch (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8017637&postcount=22), a... melee mage? He's the kind of merc who will appeal greatly to some players, and not at all to others. I probably made some errors, let me know. @TheMagister: I think you'll find that mercs can spend no more than 10% of their gold on expendables, so that CLW wand can have no more than 16 charges. Assuming this is allowed--I figure it makes sense that a merc might have a used wand, while it's best not to do that for player characters.
bluemage55 12-16-05, 05:44 AM	Introducing Aramil Kobold-Slayer, the perfect 100gp mercernary solution to all those annoying kobold sorcerers. :D They'll never know what hit 'em.
TheMagister 12-16-05, 05:50 AM	@TheMagister: I think you'll find that mercs can spend no more than 10% of their gold on expendables, so that CLW wand can have no more than 16 charges. Assuming this is allowed--I figure it makes sense that a merc might have a used wand, while it's best not to do that for player characters. Hey, thanks for catching that! I doubt very much that more than 16 would be needed for any single fight, anyhow. I just put it there because it made sense...likely he'll absorb enough punishment without healing anyhow. Edit: Fixed! So, other than that, would YOU use him for your melee-oriented character? TM
DTFarstar 12-16-05, 06:49 AM	I would just like to throw something out there. 1. People with Firefox (and some other browsers I believe) cannot open sblocks if there is anything open when you create it (like [ color=red ][ sblock=bah! ]bah![ /color ][ /sblock ]) so I and pretty much any other people with Firefox and other browsers would really appreciate it if you would watch for that. In the three fights I've done I've had to search someone's character sheet for their open tag twice. It slows things down alot, but I need to access the info inside. So, in short, I would really appreciate it if people would make sure to check for stuff like this when creating battles and characters. By no means do I suggest everyone go back and double check all their characters or anything, just if people would be extra careful from now on I would appreciate it.
Guildlords 12-16-05, 07:28 AM	@all: Please read this if you have or intend to post a Mercenary! Many of you miss that a Mercenary may not have more expendables worth 10% of his gold! I see Cure wands for 750 gold on mercs with 2500 gp wealth, and similar things. Please keep expendables at 10% max. Requirements must be met at the point of hiring which is before the pairings. So a requirement like "Will not fight dwarves" is not working. Since expendables are refunded for mercs (from the mercenaries guild) there's no such requirement as "Gladiator needs to pay for used expendables". Also keep in mind that mercenaries should aid a gladiator. I've seen some being described as buffing themselves to the roof first. It's surely not helping a gladiator if their ally protects himself for the first 5 rounds only to be out of spells when he is ready to go. What good is he now to the PC who payed for him? Finally, please avoid extremes and unrealistic characters like those having 3s and 22s only but on the other hand make sure mercs are optimized so that they are useful to the gladiator. I can only add those who have a chance to be hired, and since I only add one per week or per 2 weeks, there's a lot of competition for your merc. Look at the Merc Roster and see if there's not already a similar merc up. For example, we have a strong barbarian at ECL 1 and an archer at ECL 2. Adding a strong ECL 1 melee character, or a ranged specilist at ECL 2 to the roster is atm without chance to be picked. Perhaps later when there are enough mercs in a league. Hint: For now, I'll try to fill the different ECLs first and prefer character concepts that are not already represented. @Magister: My current favorite is your Hauberk Bulwark idea (protection cleric) but at ECL 4 and without the too expensive cure wand his chances might increase.
Myrridin 12-16-05, 09:15 AM	How much initial crafting XP can you spend if you're creating an ECL 8 character? I know it's only 200xp for an ECL 3 character, but does this increase as you create higher level characters? And if so, by how much? Thanks.
Snommelp 12-16-05, 09:40 AM	[COLOR=Purple]@all: Please read this if you have or intend to post a Mercenary! Many of you miss that a Mercenary may not have more expendables worth 10% of his gold! I see Cure wands for 750 gold on mercs with 2500 gp wealth, and similar things. Please keep expendables at 10% max. D'oh! I'll fix my drow to fit that requirement after I finish packing, traveling, and unpacking today.
waywreth 12-16-05, 11:17 AM	XP penalties... am I doing this right? I'm a human with 3 base classes. I level one up to whatever... there is no penalty. I'm a human with 3 base classes. I level one up to whatever, then start leveling up a 2nd one... this 2nd one has to stay with 2 levels of the 3rd class or I'm assessed the XP penalty?
TelinArtho 12-16-05, 11:24 AM	Right so if you are a human fighter 3/cleric 1/thief 1 and keep leveling fighter - no penalty will apply. However if you were fighter 6/cleric 3/thief 1 - you would get a penalty. Humans get to ignore the class in which they are the highest level.
waywreth 12-16-05, 11:41 AM	However if you were fighter 6/cleric 3/thief 1 - you would get a penalty. Humans get to ignore the class in which they are the highest level. But the cleric and fighter are within 2 levels of each other aren't they? Or is it only one level?
Vulcanes 12-16-05, 11:56 AM	can some1 tell if the large weapons cost more coz armor does but theres nothing to find in the weapons part of srd (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/home.html) but in the armor part they say that it will cost 2x the normal price can some1 help me with this plz :confused:
King Uther 12-16-05, 11:57 AM	They cost 2x the base price. And just the base price. Edit: @waywreth It's within one level. So in his example, Fighter 6/Cleric3/Thief2 would be fine, but leveling Ceric would gain a penalty unless Thief was levelled. But then again the Thief picture in the 2nd edition handbook was rather a fruity fellow.
Usurpator 12-16-05, 12:04 PM	Could the Elders please get together and decide what the rules are in rewarding gold for monster fights with multiple monsters. Currently I see two different ways that Pitlords reward monster fights: 1. Calculate gold by individual CR Look up the gold reward for each monster separately, cross-referencing individual CR's in the rewards table and summing the resulting gold. Current supporter: Caterane (just look at his last fight, Brifl vs. 2 Behir's, Cat gives away twice the CR 8 gold reward instead of a single CR 10 award). 2. Calculate gold by EL Look at the EL of all the monsters together and cross-reference that with rewards table and get a single gold tally. Current supporter: King Uther Note that things as 'double standard treasure' have nothing to do with this issue. Such things are clearly wrong. The literal text of the CoCo rules seems to point to individual rewards, while fairness/balance seems to point in taking the total EL. If the first rule is accepted, some gladiators will have received too little gold (think about a recent fight vs. 3 ghouls for example) while if the second is accepted, some gladiators will have received too much gold. EDIT: the differences between the two rules could amount to quite a bit of gold (thousands of gp.), especially with higher level gladiators who have received several monster fights.
waywreth 12-16-05, 12:10 PM	Thank you both - King Uther and Telin. And Usurpator - I was under the impression we used Calculate gold by EL, that's how I was planning to do any/all quests and monster fights.
Usurpator 12-16-05, 12:28 PM	Thank you both - King Uther and Telin. And Usurpator - I was under the impression we used Calculate gold by EL, that's how I was planning to do any/all quests and monster fights. I was under the impression that monster fights were done by individual CR, that's how I did them in the past. The table also indicated CR/ECL and talks about individual rewards. And because I wasn't sure I looked how Cat did it. He always chooses option 1. Additionaly, the dungeon encounter tables that the monsters are rolled on are not EL tables. A 4th lvl dungeon encounter can be 1 Lantern Archon or 3 Lantern Archon's. Obviously the second result is three times as hard as the first. Should both encounters net the gladiator an EL 4 reward? What is the EL for 1d3+1 ghasts and 2d4+1 ghouls? Should we work with fractional EL's to determine the appriopriate amount of XP? The calculate gold by CR option solves calculation difficulties, but it gives more gold to those gladiators who face several lower ECL/CR monsters in comparison to those that face a single one.
waywreth 12-16-05, 12:51 PM	I was thinking to use the handy EL Calculator (http://www.d20srd.org/encounterCalculator.htm) and provide rewards based on the total EL.
Usurpator 12-16-05, 01:01 PM	I was thinking to use the handy EL Calculator (http://www.d20srd.org/encounterCalculator.htm) and provide rewards based on the total EL. I am fine with that, but the issue needs to be resolved, because either a lot of gladiators get extra money, or a lot will be put in prison for overspending...
Ariel23 12-16-05, 02:28 PM	WARNING: Dead horse Imprisoned with no violation... that's flawed logic if I've ever seen it. I don't know the answer so I will ask what sounds like a rhetorical question (it isn't): Is it a "violation" to have 26 HP but no gray breakdown of how you got them--even if the 26 is correct? If so, then not having a gray explanation for unusable equipment must also be a violation. Except that is the reason the prison was created....to keep those types of posts all in one place, where they can be tracked. I think part of the problem of this discussion is the "violation" part. I don't want to break character or immersion for anyone here, but it's not a real prison. These are not "criminals." In the case of refusing to make requested [and arguably unnecessary] notations, it's not that you're breaking a rule in the SRD, you are breaking a social contract with the residents and supporters of the Coliseum. The point of the prison posts is to get characters (and character sheets) cleaned up and accurate. No one is accusing you of a crime or calling you a bad person in RL if you typo-d Sleep to Slop, but the reason it's in the prison is because its unclear and/or causes readability issues...including for pitlords as well as opponents. Without pitlords, none of this would be possible (you dont need opponents because you could fight yourself if you wanted to :p ). People would constantly be asking you: "What is Slop?" "Is that in the SRD?" "Is that supposed to be Grease?" Etc... Explaining what your (apparently) useless equipment is for would be considered a courtesy to everyone on these forums who will read the character and waste their time and yours (and mine) posting and PMing about it. 90% of those posts and PMs would be people trying to help you out at no benefit to themselves. [Er, except for the credit/prison thing :twitch:] I don't know if that's a violation or not, but if someone asks you to do it, why wouldn't you just do it for everyone's benefit? I'm sympathetic to the whole "trickery, misdirection, and obfuscation" argument. My answer to that: your parenthetical explanation of why you have the equipment doesn't have to be true! Equipment gets put to a lot of unintended uses, anyway.
Altaris13 12-16-05, 03:05 PM	Hey all, is anyone else having connection issues with wizards.com/dnd and all related sites (such as the boards?) I've been having a problem for a couple of days, but not with any other site. :mad:
TelinArtho 12-16-05, 03:36 PM	The boards go down from time to time for me - but it is pretty intermittent. Haven't given it much thought - but it may be more frequently recently than before - not sure though. ------------------------- Hmmm - just noticed a possible complication on Faelto (my druid). She has the trample feat and a heavy horse for a companion. However, a heavy horse "cannot fight while carrying a rider" - does this mean that she cannot use the trample feat with the horse? [Crossposting this in the Living Tree as it would seem prevalent there as well]
Mal-2 12-16-05, 03:42 PM	She has the trample feat and a heavy horse for a companion. However, a heavy horse "cannot fight while carrying a rider" - does this mean that she cannot use the trample feat with the horse? I belive that comes under this section of the Ride Skill: Control Mount in Battle As a move action, you can attempt to control a light horse, pony, heavy horse, or other mount not trained for combat riding while in battle. If you fail the Ride check, you can do nothing else in that round. You do not need to roll for warhorses or warponies. As far as I understand it, that's the difference between a mount trained for riding and one trianed for combat riding.
TelinArtho 12-16-05, 03:51 PM	No - the horse is actually trained for combat riding - so this has nothing to do with what you quoted. This is a heavy horse (not a warhorse) - and they have a very specific statement: A heavy horse cannot fight while carrying a rider. Now the question is whether the trample is an attack of the horse or an attack of the rider. If it is an attack of the horse (because it is the horse's hoof attack), then I would say that the trample (well - the attack part of the trample) wouldn't work. If it is an attack of the rider (because the rider uses her action to overrun someone while mounted) - then I would say that the trample works. Its a matter of perception and since I built my character around the whole trample thing - its rather important...
waywreth 12-16-05, 04:31 PM	I would say the horse is the one making the attack not you due to the wording of the feat... (bolding by me). "Your mount may make one hoof attack against any target you knock down, gaining the standard +4 bonus on attack rolls against prone targets." However - just because the horse can't step on him however doesn't mean he can't knock your opponent prone. So I would say you could do the overrun part, and the horse could not make the AoO if your opponent is knocked prone. That make sense? I can see arguing that the feat trample grants your mount that ability and thus it makes the trample attack, and thus you couldn't use it all mounted on a heavy horse, but the way I see it is that horses/mounts are large animals and can plow stuff over when pushed in the correct direction...
Vathelokai 12-16-05, 05:01 PM	WARNING: Dead horse I belive that comes under this section of the Ride Skill: No - the horse is actually trained for combat riding - so this has nothing to do with what you quoted. I would say the horse is the one making the attack not you due to the wording of the feat... (bolding by me). Anybody else see that... :D Skimming is so much more fun than reading. Hmmm...About the dead horse. I was orgionaly against NiQil on the 'label your unusable income' thing, but Ariel23 makes a good point.
Pitlords 12-16-05, 05:04 PM	Could the Elders please get together and decide what the rules are in rewarding gold for monster fights with multiple monsters. Currently I see two different ways that Pitlords reward monster fights: 1. Calculate gold by individual CR Look up the gold reward for each monster separately, cross-referencing individual CR's in the rewards table and summing the resulting gold. Current supporter: Caterane (just look at his last fight, Brifl vs. 2 Behir's, Cat gives away twice the CR 8 gold reward instead of a single CR 10 award). 2. Calculate gold by EL Look at the EL of all the monsters together and cross-reference that with rewards table and get a single gold tally. Current supporter: King Uther Note that things as 'double standard treasure' have nothing to do with this issue. Such things are clearly wrong. The literal text of the CoCo rules seems to point to individual rewards, while fairness/balance seems to point in taking the total EL. If the first rule is accepted, some gladiators will have received too little gold (think about a recent fight vs. 3 ghouls for example) while if the second is accepted, some gladiators will have received too much gold. EDIT: the differences between the two rules could amount to quite a bit of gold (thousands of gp.), especially with higher level gladiators who have received several monster fights. We must go with Option 1. In the Monster List, there are variables. I could also have rolled 1 or 3 Behirs instead of 2. If we just go by the League Rewards (here: 10) instead of the single CRs, then it is no difference between Brilf beating 1, 2, or 3 Behirs. Also note that monsters have no ECL so you cannot use that anyway.
MindWandererB 12-16-05, 09:29 PM	[COLOR=Purple]Finally, please avoid extremes and unrealistic characters like those having 3s and 22s only but on the other hand make sure mercs are optimized so that they are useful to the gladiator. I can only add those who have a chance to be hired, and since I only add one per week or per 2 weeks, there's a lot of competition for your merc. Am modifying my submission accordingly. He's still fairly exotic, but simple to run. And I think in his case, it's usually smarter to buff himself so he doesn't die and can be useful.
Snommelp 12-16-05, 09:37 PM	Another Merc: Ruffrrn. Questions, comments, concerns, beauty tips?
Book5 12-16-05, 09:55 PM	Anybody else see that... :D Skimming is so much more fun than reading. Hmmm...About the dead horse. When did the horse die? :looloo: :twocents: absolute ludicrousness that a horse cannot attack while you are mounted. That little line goes out the window on my tabletop. Absurd, idiotic, lazy, and even a somewhat pathetic rule. Why was it made? "So people cant get an excessive number of attacks just by buying a mount" what should they have done? "You must make a standard action ride check action DC15 to have your mount make an attack while you are riding. Failure by less than 5 wastes your, and your mounts, action for the round. Failure by more than 5 automatically dismounts your character, but your mount may still attack." or something slightly better with the same idea. What? Horse can attack things when you are riding them! Double-hoof-multi-attack for that matter! Either forewards or backwards! Take it from a man who has been on the back of a horse who decided that the snake in the grass needed. to. die! Or how about that one horse I was on that constantly bit other horses on the butt? I was on his back, and he bit the horse in front of him, its non-lethal as SRD says... but still! I go to try and handle the stupid thing and no matter where I lead him he reaches out and bites. I had to keep him like twenty feet away from the trail the entire time!
MindWandererB 12-16-05, 10:37 PM	Here's (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8023686&postcount=25) another merc. Tried to make one at CR 1/2 that would be pretty good. Please check for errors and likability.
NiQil 12-16-05, 10:41 PM	Here's (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8023686&postcount=25) another merc. Tried to make one at CR 1/2 that would be pretty good. Please check for errors and likability. One thing that immediately jumps out....he can't use the shield as a weapon in the primary hand. Emphasis mine. Shield, Heavy, Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A heavy shield is so heavy that you can’t use your shield hand for anything else. Wooden or Steel: Wooden and steel shields offer the same basic protection, though they respond differently to special attacks. Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. See Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next action (usually until the next round). An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
bluemage55 12-16-05, 11:13 PM	It seems to me that most of your debate on horses is solved by a series of Rules of the Game articles on mounted combat. Just thought I'd mention it.
Sunwolf 12-17-05, 12:07 AM	How many credits would these items cost? Have I priced these items correctly? Bracers of Mighty Fists +1 (4000gp) and 5 credits? (gives +1 enhancement to hit/damage to all natural/unarmed attacks) This is amulet of mighty fists in a different slot -- priced as a double weapon in an appropriate slot for combat effects. Bracers of Striking +1 (2000gp) and 10 credits? (gives +1 enhancement to hit/damage to one natural/unarmed attack) This is effectively allows weapon enhancments to unarmed attacks -- priced as a normal magic weapon. Shirt of Prowess (+2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Dex) (4000*2+4000*2+4000=20000) and 10 credits?
King Uther 12-17-05, 01:31 AM	So, if I'm lucky, I could get an extremely superior monster fight and by EL10 have an 8000gp advantage over my counterparts? That seems a bit unfair.
MindWandererB 12-17-05, 02:22 AM	One thing that immediately jumps out....he can't use the shield as a weapon in the primary hand. Emphasis mine. Right, forgot about that. There was a big debate over this on the D&D boards a while back, and it was decided that it made no sense that you couldn't make a primary shield attack if you wanted to. However, that was not a ruling based on RAW. I'll have to fix it.
Usurpator 12-17-05, 05:09 AM	So, if I'm lucky, I could get an extremely superior monster fight and by EL10 have an 8000gp advantage over my counterparts? That seems a bit unfair. Indeed. Currently Monster Fights are the way to go. They add a flat 100 point to your base power rating while they are usually easier than fighting another gladiator. Also, you get more gold, on average, for these easier fights.
MindWandererB 12-17-05, 05:18 AM	And another merc. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8025356&postcount=26) Anyone get the impression I like making characters? It's nice to make mercs rather than characters; they have to be effective but not 100% optimized in every respect, plus you get to see how other people use them. Anyway, please check for errors and/or give advice on how to make it more likable/playable.
Altaris13 12-17-05, 08:52 AM	GARR! :mad: :banghead: Please. Help. Before. My. Head. Explodes. :headexplo Can anyone tell me how to load a map image into photobucket so I can load that damn picture here into my fights? I saved the arena map 'standard' as is, edited it with photoshop, saved it as a jpg and tried to load it onto photobucket. Photobucket is telling me that the file type is invalid.
Vathelokai 12-17-05, 08:58 AM	GARR! :mad: :banghead: Please. Help. Before. My. Head. Explodes. :headexplo Can anyone tell me how to load a map image into photobucket so I can load that damn picture here into my fights? I saved the arena map 'standard' as is, edited it with photoshop, saved it as a jpg and tried to load it onto photobucket. Photobucket is telling me that the file type is invalid. That's bizzare. Are you sure it's .jpg and not .jpeg or something like that. I can't think of anything else.
Altaris13 12-17-05, 09:16 AM	That's bizzare. Are you sure it's .jpg and not .jpeg or something like that. I can't think of anything else. Yeah, pretty sure. I tried it a couple of times. I can't seem to be able to load any of the images I've altered with photoshop, so I'm redoing it all in MS Paint. I can load those with no problem, but have less options and less "coolness" that Adobe offers.
Abyssal Stalker 12-17-05, 09:24 AM	I'm quite new on this board and have some stupid questions... Does the XP penalty for multiclassing apply? I know it's in PHB, but couldn't find it in the SRD. :confused:
NiQil 12-17-05, 09:31 AM	I'm quite new on this board and have some stupid questions... Does the XP penalty for multiclassing apply? I know it's in PHB, but couldn't find it in the SRD. :confused: Yes, multi-classing penalties and restrictions apply normally here.
Ayrynthyn 12-17-05, 10:39 AM	and specifically... Core *here* is defined as PHB, DMG, MM, and anything in the SRD (from the Core post in the rules thread) While i have contestation that Psionics are core, it seems that they've been used around here forever and have quite the strong following. Since they are in the SRD, they can be used. (they are OGL, and thus in the SRD...they are not imho core - All squares are rectancles, but not all rectangles are sqares, but this is not a point i wish to debate)
NiQil 12-17-05, 10:48 AM	and specifically... Core *here* is defined as PHB, DMG, MM, and anything in the SRD (from the Core post in the rules thread) While i have contestation that Psionics are core, it seems that they've been used around here forever and have quite the strong following. Since they are in the SRD, they can be used. (they are OGL, and thus in the SRD...they are not imho core - All squares are rectancles, but not all rectangles are sqares, but this is not a point i wish to debate) They are not core in the sense that they do not carry the core descriptor on the XPH, but psionics have been around since the days of 1E AD&D. But I digress. Core here is termed as the DMG, PHB, MM, SRD, and (by extension from the SRD) XPH.
Macbrea 12-17-05, 11:17 AM	Shirt of Prowess (+2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Dex) (4000*2+4000*2+4000=20000) and 10 credits? Wouldn't this technically cost: (2*2*1000) + (2*2*1000*75%) + (2*2*1000*50%) = 9,000 gp Multiple Similar Abilities For items with multiple similar abilities that don’t take up space on a character’s body use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus one-half the value of any other abilities. Just curious on this one.
Ayrynthyn 12-17-05, 11:21 AM	They are not core in the sense that they do not carry the core descriptor on the XPH, but psionics have been around since the days of 1E AD&D. But I digress. Core here is termed as the DMG, PHB, MM, SRD, and (by extension from the SRD) XPH. whoops... looks like my link above was broken (fixed)... anyway. What does the word "Core" mean? What rulebooks can I use? Our definition of "Core" means everything that can be found in one of the following four sources (all D&D 3.5 sources): the Player's Handbook (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndcore/175240000) (PHB), the Dungeon Master's Guide (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndcore/177520000) (DMG), the Monster Manual (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndcore/177550000) (MM), and the 3.5 System Reference Document (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/home.html) (SRD). Every D&D rule used in the Core Coliseum can be found in one of those four sources. ... I have the Expanded Psionics Handbook. Can I use everything in there? Not everything, but almost. The Hidden Talent feat (page 67) isn't in the SRD, and so cannot be taken. Similarly, the Githyanki (page 10), Githzerai (page 11), and Thri-Kreen (page 14) races aren't in the SRD, and thus cannot be used. Note that the non-psionic versions of the Githyanki and the Githzerai are in the Monster Manual, and so can be used; the restriction only applies to the psionic versions listed in the Expanded Psionics Handbook. Also note that besides minor name changes to several of the prestige classes, one prestige class (the Illithid Slayer) has become the Slayer (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicSlayer.html), and now has one less prerequisite, in addition to being a much more flexible class. Psionics in first edition were optional rules at best and were tucked away in the back of the book in an appedice some where. You were hard pressed to find a DM knew how to use them. Once you found one that knew how to use em, you were even harder pressed to get him to let you them. Anyway... i apologize. i shouldn't have mentioned it. I'm a bit flustered that i still havent received all my tactics for this weeks fight yet, and im annoyed with my self that i dont know the psionic rules remotely well enough. i humbly retract from any discussion on the topic...
Guildlords 12-17-05, 11:55 AM	I'm quite new on this board and have some stupid questions... Does the XP penalty for multiclassing apply? I know it's in PHB, but couldn't find it in the SRD. :confused: 20% per class that is more than one level away from any other class, not counting favored classes. There's one additional thing NiQil forgot to mention: the penalty applies to both XP and Gold rewards.
MindWandererB 12-17-05, 09:00 PM	I was just rereading the rules on mercenaries, and it looks like I misread something before. Is there any reason to use mercs with NPC levels? It looks like anyone with an LA entry in the MM (even if that entry is "+0") uses ECL rather than CR to calculate availability and price. Do I have this right? Should I go back and make modifications to (or even delete) my Warrior submission? Speaking of which, here's (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8029707&postcount=28) another. Pretty standard.
Zevox 12-17-05, 10:52 PM	A question I ran into while designing a new character: According to the MM and SRD, an advanced Wolf with 4-6 HD is large size. Would this apply to a Wolf with advanced HD for being a Druid's or Ranger's animal companion as well? Or would such a Wolf remain medium size? It strikes me as strange that an animal suddenly grows larger just because it is tied to a stronger master. Zevox
Luni 12-17-05, 11:31 PM	A question I ran into while designing a new character: According to the MM and SRD, an advanced Wolf with 4-6 HD is large size. Would this apply to a Wolf with advanced HD for being a Druid's or Ranger's animal companion as well? Or would such a Wolf remain medium size? It strikes me as strange that an animal suddenly grows larger just because it is tied to a stronger master. Zevox No, the animal companion stays the same size. It is listed somewhere in the FaQ, but I simply don't have that handy at the moment. Think of it this way: Should a druid lose their animal companion, when they get to +6 HD bonus because wolves are limited to 6 HD?
Zevox 12-17-05, 11:51 PM	No, the animal companion stays the same size. It is listed somewhere in the FaQ, but I simply don't have that handy at the moment. Think of it this way: Should a druid lose their animal companion, when they get to +6 HD bonus because wolves are limited to 6 HD? Okay then, thanks Luni (I'd not even considered the HD max, that'll be a good way to remember it). Should be all set on that now. Zevox
Turin 12-18-05, 10:57 AM	Somewhere in a dark alley in Gladius, a manhole cover shifts and slides aside. A gray-skinned dwarf pulls his way out, frightening away the bums in the alley with a single grim stare. "So this is Gladius," he murmurs in the corrupted Dwarven dialect of his homeland. "My destiny... wealth... power... it awaits." He stalks out of the alley and into the streets beyond... Hello there! This is my first entry into the Core Colleseum, and I'm looking forward to some exciting arena combat. I've posted my character, Ivangar (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8031411&postcount=593), in the Characters of Gladius thread for the Pitlords examination. I'll probably be adding a second character soon, and once I've gotten the hang of how things work around here a bit more, I'll be sure to volunteer to GM a few fights myself.
Altaris13 12-18-05, 11:20 AM	Weee! I hate Pitlording. I really do. :weep: I never run into problems like this in TT games. Issue: readied actions to atk on LOS vs Invis character. Invis PC atks, thus becoming Visible. Does the Readied action occur before OR after the Invis person's attack which rendered them invisibile? If it is before the attack, isn't the invis person still invisible, and thus benefiting from miss chance? If the readied action goes before the attack, is the readying PC still flat footed per the invis entry? Crossposted into FotW thread.
Mind Rogue 12-18-05, 01:41 PM	Weee! I hate Pitlording. I really do. :weep: I never run into problems like this in TT games. Issue: readied actions to atk on LOS vs Invis character. Invis PC atks, thus becoming Visible. Does the Readied action occur before OR after the Invis person's attack which rendered them invisibile? If it is before the attack, isn't the invis person still invisible, and thus benefiting from miss chance? If the readied action goes before the attack, is the readying PC still flat footed per the invis entry? Crossposted into FotW thread. I think the correct answer is both, but I don't know how it works logically. The character with the readied action obviously cannot attack until he gets los, so his attack should have no miss chance for concealment. However, by the rules of readying, it actually resolves before whatever the action was that triggered it and can possibly disrupt that action (if it had been spellcasting or certain skills). Think of it this way: Joe Fighter is readied to attack as soon as his opponent, Jane Rogue, becomes visible. Jane attacks and becomes visible in mid-swing. Joe doesn't have the opportunity anymore to be able to dodge out of the way (causing him to loose his dex bonus) since he saw her too late, but his reflexive action (the readied attack) triggers, jabbing his blade into her rib too. On the following round, Joe goes right before Jane.
Maraxus 12-18-05, 01:53 PM	Hehe, what about both simultaneously? :D No, this would be to inovative. ;) That's the same think with "ready to attack, if he is within reach". - With the rule, that a readied action happens just before the trigger, you attack, when he is not yet in reach. In some situations, this "happens just before" does not work.
Kaigan 12-18-05, 01:55 PM	Somewhere in a dark alley in Gladius, a manhole cover shifts and slides aside. A gray-skinned dwarf pulls his way out, frightening away the bums in the alley with a single grim stare. "So this is Gladius," he murmurs in the corrupted Dwarven dialect of his homeland. "My destiny... wealth... power... it awaits." He stalks out of the alley and into the streets beyond... Hello there! This is my first entry into the Core Colleseum, and I'm looking forward to some exciting arena combat. I've posted my character, Ivangar (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8031411&postcount=593), in the Characters of Gladius thread for the Pitlords examination. I'll probably be adding a second character soon, and once I've gotten the hang of how things work around here a bit more, I'll be sure to volunteer to GM a few fights myself. Hi, and welcome. I just breifly glanced over your character, and I saw nothing to extreme, when I have more time I'll give it a closer look. Be sure that around tuesday or wednesday before pairings, you PM the Pitlords account linking your character, and saying that you have him active. This makes things easier for the Pitlords. Enjoy your stay and good luck.
SauroGrenom 12-18-05, 03:33 PM	Somewhere in a dark alley in Gladius, a manhole cover shifts and slides aside. A gray-skinned dwarf pulls his way out, frightening away the bums in the alley with a single grim stare. "So this is Gladius," he murmurs in the corrupted Dwarven dialect of his homeland. "My destiny... wealth... power... it awaits." He stalks out of the alley and into the streets beyond... Hello there! This is my first entry into the Core Colleseum, and I'm looking forward to some exciting arena combat. I've posted my character, Ivangar (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8031411&postcount=593), in the Characters of Gladius thread for the Pitlords examination. I'll probably be adding a second character soon, and once I've gotten the hang of how things work around here a bit more, I'll be sure to volunteer to GM a few fights myself. I don't see anything illegal on the sheet, so your good there. As a word of advice, I suggest you drop the ring of protection. 2000gp s about 2/3 of your entire gp value and for only a +1 on your AC. Buy a potion of Mage Armor. Since you're invisible you will usually have all the time you want to buff with whatever expendibles you want. The abilitys and equipment to detect invisible opponents don't usually come into play untill later levels. Potions of Protection from Alignment and Shield of Faith are deflection bonuses and only cost 50gp each and they stack with the mage armor potion. Also consider using poison since you're immune to it. Consider getting a few nasty crawling tattoo's of Mind thrust. Those can be used to target the mounts of some opponents (who have low will saves), and using them will not spoil your invisibility. This is a nice counter to opponents that will have a greater mobility than you. Lastly it's always a good idea to have a tattoo of force screen to compliment your other AC bonuses and tattoo's of skate to help with your dwarven(slow) movement. I just noticed the tattoo of grip of iron. This is nearly useless. It only lasts for one round and takes a standard action to activate. If you use it you only get the bonus on defending against your opponents grapple check after yours. My experience tells me that Monks are nicely augmented by 2 or 3 levels in psi-warrior. You get two bonus feats and you get the ability to use powerstones. Powerstones are very usefull because they are cheaper than tattoo's and they can be purchased with augmented powers (Vigor ML4 is a great HP/gp buff). Consider waiting a couple weeks till you can spend 4 credits so that you can field a character thats psi-war2/monk1.
SauroGrenom 12-18-05, 03:38 PM	Weee! I hate Pitlording. I really do. :weep: I never run into problems like this in TT games. Issue: readied actions to atk on LOS vs Invis character. Invis PC atks, thus becoming Visible. Does the Readied action occur before OR after the Invis person's attack which rendered them invisibile? If it is before the attack, isn't the invis person still invisible, and thus benefiting from miss chance? If the readied action goes before the attack, is the readying PC still flat footed per the invis entry? Crossposted into FotW thread. Generally the attack by the invisible person takes place first then the readied action happens. The attacker attacks a flatfooted pc with a bonus on his attack due to invisiblity. THen the defender's readied action triggers and his attack is resolved against a visable opponent.
MindWandererB 12-18-05, 04:39 PM	[i]Hello there! This is my first entry into the Core Colleseum, and I'm looking forward to some exciting arena combat. I've posted my character, Ivangar (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8031411&postcount=593), in the Characters of Gladius thread for the Pitlords examination. I'll probably be adding a second character soon, and once I've gotten the hang of how things work around here a bit more, I'll be sure to volunteer to GM a few fights myself. He's damn near a carbon-copy of my recent character, Bolrak. It would be interesting to see them in a fight.... The skill points are a bit funny. You have entries like "3 rnks... [5 mnk]." The first number seems correct according to the totals you have, so the second needs fixing. I have to wonder about the potion of sanctuary and the tattoo of grip of iron. Sanctuary only lasts 1 round per level, so the round of safety you gain is negated by the round it takes you to drink the potion. Grip of Iron also only lasts a round at ML 1, so you spend a round to tap it but it's gone before you can use it. I also suggest you note the duration of Expansion somewhere on the sheet. I've seen fights here where it lasts 3 rounds or 3 minutes, when the correct duration is 30 minutes. And thanks for taking a crossbow! Seriously, I forgot that monks can use crossbows in the current edition, so I'll be buying one as soon as Warclone does my fight. I wonder where he is, anyway?
SauroGrenom 12-18-05, 06:37 PM	I also suggest you note the duration of Expansion somewhere on the sheet. I've seen fights here where it lasts 3 rounds or 3 minutes, when the correct duration is 30 minutes. The power has a durration of 1round/level. But it can be augmented by 2pp to increase the durration to 1min/level. All psi-like abilities are assumed to be augmented to the maximum allowed by there ML. So in this case the correct durration is 3minutes which is the same as 30rounds.
Iced 12-18-05, 08:31 PM	Can a magical weapon have shock frost and flaming enhancements and use them all at once? ~Iced
lonewolf 12-18-05, 08:35 PM	Can a magical weapon have shock frost and flaming enhancements and use them all at once? ~Iced sure. there is no reason why not.
Iced 12-18-05, 08:57 PM	I just thought it was strange that you could be dealt fire and cold damage at the same time. ~Iced
MindWandererB 12-18-05, 10:12 PM	The power has a durration of 1round/level. But it can be augmented by 2pp to increase the durration to 1min/level. All psi-like abilities are assumed to be augmented to the maximum allowed by there ML. So in this case the correct durration is 3minutes which is the same as 30rounds. This is incorrect. Check the errata and SRD. The augmented duration is 10 minutes per level.
Macbrea 12-18-05, 11:00 PM	@Cerebus13: I am unable to find any annotation as to how you aquired the following scrolls. One of which was used as an attack that killed Donak this week. According to the rules of Gladius you are only allowed to scribe or buy scrolls at the level they appear on the chart in the SRD. Shocking Grasp [CL 3] (Qty 3) [37.5gp each][3xp each] Shocking Grasp [CL 5] [125gp each] If on the other hand we are allowed to scribe scrolls at a different level then the chart I would like to know that information.
SauroGrenom 12-18-05, 11:06 PM	This is incorrect. Check the errata and SRD. The augmented duration is 10 minutes per level. Page 105–106: Expansion Power The third option for augmenting the power should read as follows: 3. If you spend 2 additional power points, this power’s duration is 10 minutes per level rather than 1 round per level. I'll be a monkey's uncle. I guess that's what you get for not reading the errata. I wish they'd update the SRD section it reads: Expansion Psychometabolism Level: Psychic warrior 1…. 3. If you spend 2 additional power points, this power’s duration is 1 minute per level rather than 1 round per level.
Macbrea 12-18-05, 11:09 PM	Ah, nevermind. After rereading the scroll rule for gladius I noticed nothing prevents you from buying a scroll of x at ECL+2 for no credit cost. :P
SauroGrenom 12-18-05, 11:16 PM	@Cerebus13: I am unable to find any annotation as to how you aquired the following scrolls. One of which was used as an attack that killed Donak this week. According to the rules of Gladius you are only allowed to scribe or buy scrolls at the level they appear on the chart in the SRD. Shocking Grasp [CL 3] (Qty 3) [37.5gp each][3xp each] Shocking Grasp [CL 5] [125gp each] If on the other hand we are allowed to scribe scrolls at a different level then the chart I would like to know that information. It is my understanding that you are allowed to scribe scrolls at any level at or below your own CL. This also applies to powerstones and psions with the encode stone feat. Wands, potions, dorje's and other items that can be crafted at CL/ML or with spells different from that listed in the SRD are allowed to be purchased in the BlackMarket. Scrolls and powerstones are permitted without need to buy them in the blackmarket.
Cerebus13 12-18-05, 11:18 PM	@Cerebus13: I am unable to find any annotation as to how you aquired the following scrolls. One of which was used as an attack that killed Donak this week. According to the rules of Gladius you are only allowed to scribe or buy scrolls at the level they appear on the chart in the SRD. Shocking Grasp [CL 3] (Qty 3) [37.5gp each][3xp each] Shocking Grasp [CL 5] [125gp each] If on the other hand we are allowed to scribe scrolls at a different level then the chart I would like to know that information.Um, the CoCo has been allowing people to purchase scrolls of varying Caster Level forever. I have never paid credits to purchase a "custom" scroll of a higher Caster Level than what is listed in the DMG. The Harvester (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5179961) for example, has CL 5 Magic Missile scrolls and Magic Missile is listed as costing 25g in the SRD...which is a CL 1 scroll. Edit: yeah late on the response, sorry :P
MindWandererB 12-19-05, 12:12 AM	I'll be a monkey's uncle. I guess that's what you get for not reading the errata. I wish they'd update the SRD section it reads: That's... odd. What's your source for the SRD? Both www.wizards.com/d20 and www.d20srd.org show: 3. If you spend 2 additional power points, this power’s duration is 10 minutes per level rather than 1 round per level. However, you made my point more eloquently that I ever could have (that most folks around here get it wrong).
Warclone 12-19-05, 01:40 AM	And thanks for taking a crossbow! Seriously, I forgot that monks can use crossbows in the current edition, so I'll be buying one as soon as Warclone does my fight. I wonder where he is, anyway? I've been hanging with my friends at their lakehouse this weekend. I finished one fight tonight (not yours) and I'll be putting the others up tomorrow sometime (or at worst tuesday morning). Of note: your opponent RageBunny has not sent in his tactics, so if he doesnt get them in by tomorrow it should be an easy fight for you.
MindWandererB 12-19-05, 02:06 AM	Of note: your opponent RageBunny has not sent in his tactics, so if he doesnt get them in by tomorrow it should be an easy fight for you. Bah. Between Aerryl's phenomenal rolls and RageBunny not sending tactics, it's like a whole week of no challenges and free XP for me. I guess I shouldn't complain, but it's getting kind of silly. I hope I get some kind of challenge next week. Not that that's an invitation to brutalize me! Solon the Usurper's unfortunate encounter this week demonstrated pretty conclusively that it's possible to be hopelessly outmatched even with an opponent of equal CR. That one was really not cool.
Vathelokai 12-19-05, 02:30 AM	Bah. Between Aerryl's phenomenal rolls and RageBunny not sending tactics, it's like a whole week of no challenges and free XP for me. I guess I shouldn't complain, but it's getting kind of silly. I hope I get some kind of challenge next week. Not that that's an invitation to brutalize me! Solon the Usurper's unfortunate encounter this week demonstrated pretty conclusively that it's possible to be hopelessly outmatched even with an opponent of equal CR. That one was really not cool. You could always spend a credit to challenge someone. Maybe your opponent could pay the credits for you. Some builds are just completely impossible to beat against other builds. It may not be cool, but I've never seen it happen more than a couple weeks in a row.
waywreth 12-19-05, 08:50 AM	Cat - Just wanted to say I like the new formatting on the Roster and Pairings.
Turin 12-19-05, 08:55 AM	As a word of advice, I suggest you drop the ring of protection. 2000gp s about 2/3 of your entire gp value and for only a +1 on your AC.Yeah, I've been thinking that over quite a bit myself... it seems like expendables are the way to go at this level. I just noticed the tattoo of grip of iron. This is nearly useless. It only lasts for one round and takes a standard action to activate. If you use it you only get the bonus on defending against your opponents grapple check after yours.Ouch, I totally flubbed on the duration... is it possible to get tattoos at higher manifester level? (I've done a search through the rules material on this, but there's a lot and I think I missed it.) My experience tells me that Monks are nicely augmented by 2 or 3 levels in psi-warrior... Consider waiting a couple weeks till you can spend 4 credits so that you can field a character thats psi-war2/monk1.I may yet do that (I've had a similar observation in table-top gaming), but I really wanted to try out the duergar monk and due to the favored class rules and the monk multi-classing rules, I can't really try out a psywar/monk with this character. He's damn near a carbon-copy of my recent character, Bolrak. It would be interesting to see them in a fight....Argh! I checked through most of the low-level roster to make sure that there weren't any characters like this floating around, but I must have missed Bolrak. You're right, they are nearly identical. Hm, well, I'll keep him for now and we can see how well our tactics & luck compare... I'll be interested to see your fight from this weekend once it's posted. Plus my guy is cooler because, uh, he fights without a shirt. ;) I'll double-check the skills and fix these later on today... I screwed them up originally and had to edit, so I think I just forgot to fix the "silvered" section. Thanks for the note. Edit: adjustments have been made (I had some extra time at work :D )... I've already sent a PM to Pitlords for him. Thanks everyone!
Myrridin 12-19-05, 09:28 AM	Either I missed it, or it got missed, but how much crafting XP can an ECL 8 character spend during character creation? This has direct relevance upon the creation of my level 8 character that I'm planning on taking questing with Daeren Stronghammer.
SoulLord 12-19-05, 09:44 AM	Either I missed it, or it got missed, but how much crafting XP can an ECL 8 character spend during character creation? This has direct relevance upon the creation of my level 8 character that I'm planning on taking questing with Daeren Stronghammer. you can spend experience as long as it keeps you in the 8th level
Myrridin 12-19-05, 09:55 AM	As a starting ECL 3 character, I can spend 200xp, and still be ECL 3. Now if I pay up to start at ECL 8, can I still only spend 200xp crafting, and be level 8, or can I spend 1000xp crafting and be level 8? Just need to know the limit, otherwise the first item I craft drops me to level 7...which kind of defeats the purpose of spending 20 credits to start at level 8.
Sunwolf 12-19-05, 10:05 AM	As a starting ECL 3 character, I can spend 200xp, and still be ECL 3. Now if I pay up to start at ECL 8, can I still only spend 200xp crafting, and be level 8, or can I spend 1000xp crafting and be level 8? Just need to know the limit, otherwise the first item I craft drops me to level 7...which kind of defeats the purpose of spending 20 credits to start at level 8. If you are starting at ECL 8, you may spend up to 1000xp for crafting etc. and still start at level 8 -- you need to have 28000xp to be level 8, the extra 1000xp is available for crafting or if not used as a head start on the way to level 9.
Altaris13 12-19-05, 12:27 PM	Thelgar and his stupid rock (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8013825&postcount=585) have come to Gladius at the behest of Councilor Virgo.
TheMagister 12-19-05, 02:28 PM	Hauber Bulwark (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8017562&postcount=21) the Protective Specialist has been updated to ECL 4 and has had his equipment double checked. He's a handy one... Sdentch has dibs on him. TM
SauroGrenom 12-19-05, 03:08 PM	Thelgar and his stupid rock (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8013825&postcount=585) have come to Gladius at the behest of Councilor Virgo. I think you'll want to remove that poison prebuff. In the CoCo Poison is considered to be an expendible. So if you prebuff with it, then you are prebuffing and expending the cost of the poison before every fight. Poison does not carry over into the next fight. Also your psi-crystal cannot tap tattoo's on you unless your unconsious. Having stones with multiple powers in it is kind of dangerous because you can get into money trouple. It costs full price for the stone (with all its powers) to replace it and the partly used stone must be sold at half market value. Also having a stone with 4 coppies of Dissolving weapon is kind of crazy. Why would you ever need to manifest it 4 times in one battle? Animal affinity stat bonus must be chosen before you buy the stone. So you must decide if it increases strength or dex or whatever and list that descision on the sheet. Also your psion level is not high enough to allow your crystal to deliver touch powers.
Cerebus13 12-19-05, 03:17 PM	Animal affinity stat bonus must be chosen before you buy the stone. So you must decide if it increases strength or dex or whatever and list that descision on the sheet.This is incorrect. The Animal Affinity power works like the Resist Energy spell....you choose how to customize it when casting/manifesting. Due to the fact that his Animal Affinity is on a stone and not a tattoo it is as if the power was manifested normally by the user, thus they may select which bonus when using the stone. Determine Effect A power successfully manifested from a power stone works exactly as if manifested normally. Assume the power stone’s manifester level is always the minimum level required to manifest the power for the character who imprinted the stone, unless the creator specifically desires otherwise.
NiQil 12-19-05, 03:19 PM	I think you'll want to remove that poison prebuff. In the CoCo Poison is considered to be an expendible. So if you prebuff with it, then you are prebuffing and expending the cost of the poison before every fight. Poison does not carry over into the next fight. Also your psi-crystal cannot tap tattoo's on you unless your unconsious. Having stones with multiple powers in it is kind of dangerous because you can get into money trouple. It costs full price for the stone (with all its powers) to replace it and the partly used stone must be sold at half market value. Also having a stone with 4 coppies of Dissolving weapon is kind of crazy. Why would you ever need to manifest it 4 times in one battle? Animal affinity stat bonus must be chosen before you buy the stone. So you must decide if it increases strength or dex or whatever and list that descision on the sheet. Also your psion level is not high enough to allow your crystal to deliver touch powers. The bit about poison is not what was stated by ToK when this issue came up when Telin and myself both inquired about it. As he stated, if you have some way of using poison without the risk of poisoning yourself, such as the poison use skill, poison immunity, etc, then poisoned weapons do carry over from fight to fight because there is never any risk of poisoning yourself. So if you prebuff an arrow and never use it, or can recover it, the poison is still there to be used again for those characters who never have a risk of poisoning themselves. Also, you do *not have to prestate your animal affinity stat bonus, just as you do not have to prestate the type of energy you want to have in a stone of energy missile. These are all chosen at the time of manifestation.
TelinArtho 12-19-05, 03:19 PM	He doesn't have to choose the effect of Animal Affinity until the power is manifested. If it is a tattoo and not a powerstone, then he would have to specify ahead of time. About the poison prebuff this was something that even I had to adjust for Felan - because I was told otherwise by ToK and now Cat's been saying that all prebuffs are not carried over and that the poison can't be recovered. It really makes poison a tough thing to use efficiently in the arena.
Kaigan 12-19-05, 03:21 PM	Couldn't you just prebuff the weapons you know for sure that you'll use with poison?
TelinArtho 12-19-05, 03:25 PM	Yes - but you just have to make sure that you use them or the doses are wasted. In the case of most poison users that I've seen - they have to put it on a few arrows. If the opponent fails his first save though - you'll still end up using all of the doses that you prebuffed with. In the case of Felan, I had to entirely rewrite how I go about things for him because of this - before he would just prebuff all his arrows and start firing...
Altaris13 12-19-05, 03:28 PM	double post
NiQil 12-19-05, 03:28 PM	Yes - but you just have to make sure that you use them or the doses are wasted. In the case of most poison users that I've seen - they have to put it on a few arrows. If the opponent fails his first save though - you'll still end up using all of the doses that you prebuffed with. In the case of Felan, I had to entirely rewrite how I go about things for him because of this - before he would just prebuff all his arrows and start firing... That's why Kronos quit using poison for the time being...I'm waiting for him to be a bit more melee effective to dip back in (hello level six, glad to see you have my exotic weapon proficiency (spiked chain) waiting for me...I have all this poison that I would like to introduce it to...)
Altaris13 12-19-05, 03:31 PM	Yes - but you just have to make sure that you use them or the doses are wasted. In the case of most poison users that I've seen - they have to put it on a few arrows. If the opponent fails his first save though - you'll still end up using all of the doses that you prebuffed with. In the case of Felan, I had to entirely rewrite how I go about things for him because of this - before he would just prebuff all his arrows and start firing... Hm, well that sucks. How long does it take to apply a poison to a weapon? As for the psicrystal & tapping tatoos, I had seen this in another person's tactics a week ago. I asked about it then, and a number of people chimed in that it was a valid tactic. In regards to the stones, you can use a stone multiple times for manifesting, just like you can use a scroll with multiple spells on it.
NiQil 12-19-05, 03:33 PM	Hm, well that sucks. How long does it take to apply a poison to a weapon? As for the psicrystal & tapping tatoos, I had seen this in another person's tactics a week ago. I asked about it then, and a number of people chimed in that it was a valid tactic. Psicrystals can tap tattoos...but bear in mind that if you want it to tap a tattoo on you, you have to be unconscious. It can tap it's own tattoos, but you would get no benefit from that, since normal tattoos would only affect the psicrystal, and crawling tattoos cannot carry personal powers. • A character can trigger the effects of another’s psionic tattoo if the other wearer is unconscious. It is a full-round action to find, touch, and concentrate on an unconscious creature’s tattoo in order to tap it.
TelinArtho 12-19-05, 03:42 PM	Applying poison is a standard action.
Altaris13 12-19-05, 03:47 PM	Psicrystals can tap tattoos...but bear in mind that if you want it to tap a tattoo on you, you have to be unconscious. It can tap it's own tattoos, but you would get no benefit from that, since normal tattoos would only affect the psicrystal, and crawling tattoos cannot carry personal powers. Bugger me. Will have to research further then..
SauroGrenom 12-19-05, 04:12 PM	Altaris13, You may be refering to Kracknol. He uses crawling tattoo's sent by his crystal. In this case Kracknol can be targeted by the crawling tattoos to farry beneficial powers. Recent rulings have seriously limited the kinds of crawling tattoos that are allowed. Still the crystal can contribute to a combat by sending tattoos after your opponents. In regards to the stones, you can use a stone multiple times for manifesting, just like you can use a scroll with multiple spells on it. You are absolutely correct in this, but you must remember that you cannot "recharge" or "renew" such stones. You must buy them wholy new if you want one and keep or sell the partly used stones. I mentioned it because of that reason and because I cannot think of a reason to have 4 dissolving weapons powers in a single fight at ECL5. You may have a good tactic I haven't thought of, it may also be like carrying around 4 different londswords.
Altaris13 12-19-05, 05:07 PM	Altaris13, You may be refering to Kracknol. He uses crawling tattoo's sent by his crystal. In this case Kracknol can be targeted by the crawling tattoos to farry beneficial powers. Recent rulings have seriously limited the kinds of crawling tattoos that are allowed. Still the crystal can contribute to a combat by sending tattoos after your opponents. You are absolutely correct in this, but you must remember that you cannot "recharge" or "renew" such stones. You must buy them wholy new if you want one and keep or sell the partly used stones. I mentioned it because of that reason and because I cannot think of a reason to have 4 dissolving weapons powers in a single fight at ECL5. You may have a good tactic I haven't thought of, it may also be like carrying around 4 different londswords. You're right, I think it was Kracknol. And I'm perfectly clear on buying "new" stones & scrolls. I tend to buy a couple of back up stones & such when making new characters, that way I'm not spending my earnings to keep a "trick going." Just in case of a loss, you know? Besides, what if the first shot doesn't finish of the berk I'm flubbin'? Or maybe there's multiple opponents to worry about. I've got armor spikes that can be buffed with dissolving weapon too. ;) I try to prepare for circumstances I can think of.
Ariel23 12-19-05, 05:11 PM	This is incorrect. Check the errata and SRD. The augmented duration is 10 minutes per level. Actually, this is not in the SRD (yet) but is in the errata. It makes one wonder why Compression did not also get that 10 minute "fix." As a side-note to anyone using the Expanded Psionics Handbook: the un-augmented Expansion is 1 round/level.
MindWandererB 12-19-05, 05:23 PM	Actually, this is not in the SRD (yet) but is in the errata. !!? You're right! I don't know what happened, because the copy that I have downloaded onto my computer has the changes! And I don't think I edited mine... (the stamp on mine says 8/10/2004). But other copies of the SRD that you can find online (not the one at the official site) have the errata'd information. Huh. But anyway, yeah, that's why I recommend all duergar to note the duration on their character sheets, and cite both the errata and the "ML=virtual PP spent" rule, because almost no one does it right. And I have another question: I've seen several characters with scrolls of Energy Substituted spells. Although Energy Substitution is in the SRD, it's under "divine feats" with the text "Deities can obtain the feats described here, in addition to any standard feats." The feat has been reprinted elsewhere without that text, but then that's not Core. So is it assumed that anyone with an Energy Substituted scroll has had commerce with a deity? That seems absurd at best. Or is it a CoCo house rule that anyone can take these "deity" feats?" I should also point out that Deities and Demigods is a 3.0 publication, and many of the contents have been updated in or removed from 3.5. The inclusion of such overpowered things as Blacklight and Knock-Down make me kind of queasy, and some content (like Energy Substitution) has been altered considerably in 3.5. Anyway, that's my question and my 2 cents.
Ariel23 12-19-05, 06:24 PM	Um, I don't think anyone should be taking Divine feats.[Divine] Feats Deities can obtain the feats described here, in addition to any standard feats. P.S. I don't even know what Blacklight is, but I don't want to be using 3.0 if this is SRD.
NiQil 12-19-05, 06:36 PM	!!? You're right! I don't know what happened, because the copy that I have downloaded onto my computer has the changes! And I don't think I edited mine... (the stamp on mine says 8/10/2004). But other copies of the SRD that you can find online (not the one at the official site) have the errata'd information. Huh. But anyway, yeah, that's why I recommend all duergar to note the duration on their character sheets, and cite both the errata and the "ML=virtual PP spent" rule, because almost no one does it right. And I have another question: I've seen several characters with scrolls of Energy Substituted spells. Although Energy Substitution is in the SRD, it's under "divine feats" with the text "Deities can obtain the feats described here, in addition to any standard feats." The feat has been reprinted elsewhere without that text, but then that's not Core. So is it assumed that anyone with an Energy Substituted scroll has had commerce with a deity? That seems absurd at best. Or is it a CoCo house rule that anyone can take these "deity" feats?" I should also point out that Deities and Demigods is a 3.0 publication, and many of the contents have been updated in or removed from 3.5. The inclusion of such overpowered things as Blacklight and Knock-Down make me kind of queasy, and some content (like Energy Substitution) has been altered considerably in 3.5. Anyway, that's my question and my 2 cents. Energy Substitution is a valid feat because it has the [General] descriptor, and not the [Divine] descriptor. Where they are listed in the SRD doesn't really matter...the fact that anyone can take a general feat is what matters. This is how fighters can take Greater Manyshot. It is a General feat listed under Psionic feats. By your logic, no one but psionic characters could take it. This is why Improved Natural Attack is available to monks...because it is a General feat and not something else.
MindWandererB 12-19-05, 06:53 PM	Um, I don't think anyone should be taking Divine feats. P.S. I don't even know what Blacklight is, but I don't want to be using 3.0 if this is SRD. You'll find it under "Divine domains and spells." It's the 3rd level spell of the Darkness domain and is also considered a 3rd level Sor/Wiz spell. Energy Substitution is a valid feat because it has the [General] descriptor, and not the [Divine] descriptor. Feats with the [Divine] descriptor are feats that require the ability to turn or rebuke undead, not feats that require you to have divine rank. But the SRD specifically says, as Ariel23 quoted, that deities (and not necessarily anyone else) can take those feats. The "Psionic Feats" page of the SRD says: "Psionic feats are available only to characters and creatures with the ability to manifest powers. (In other words, they either have a power point reserve or have psi-like abilities.)" It does not say, as the "Divine Feats" page says, "(Psionic) characters can obtain the following feats." Similarly, the "Monster Feats" page says, "These feats apply to abilities most commonly found amongst monsters or are related to monsters." Nothing about any kind of restriction. I'm just trying to clarify this. I plan to take one of these feats later on, and probably buy some Substituted scrolls of my own, and I want to make sure it's officially allowed.
NiQil 12-19-05, 07:03 PM	You'll find it under "Divine domains and spells." It's the 3rd level spell of the Darkness domain and is also considered a 3rd level Sor/Wiz spell. Feats with the [Divine] descriptor are feats that require the ability to turn or rebuke undead, not feats that require you to have divine rank. But the SRD specifically says, as Ariel23 quoted, that deities (and not necessarily anyone else) can take those feats. The "Psionic Feats" page of the SRD says: "Psionic feats are available only to characters and creatures with the ability to manifest powers. (In other words, they either have a power point reserve or have psi-like abilities.)" It does not say, as the "Divine Feats" page says, "(Psionic) characters can obtain the following feats." I mispoke. By Divine descriptor, I meant the Divine abilities (Divine Rage, Divine Paladin, etc). If you look at the section of the SRD that lists Divine Abilities and Feats, it is proken up into abilities for Divine characters (basically epic characters), and then down at the very bottom of the pages, there is a section that says Feats. Those are available to anyone that meets the prereq's. Feats always are.
Caterane 12-19-05, 07:14 PM	Hauber Bulwark (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8017562&postcount=21) the Protective Specialist has been updated to ECL 4 and has had his equipment double checked. He's a handy one... Sdentch has dibs on him. TM Magister, the CLW wand with 10 charges only is a custom item that costs credits and that is not allowed on mercs. If we would allow partially charged wands then why would anyone ever buy a scroll again? Also, the [Cruel] tag doesn't exist yet. It will be introduced along with Land and Titles (high Taxes are cruel). Remove the wand please (there's no way around, trust me), exchange the cruel tag with something else, and I will consider him to add the next week ...unless there's a better merc available. @waywreth: Thanks.
Iced 12-19-05, 09:00 PM	How much would it cost me to personally craft an adamantine full plate with the continuous effects of rightious might, fly and divine power. Gold wise/XP wise/Credit wise. My estimation is: 16,500 (Base) /2 (Self-Crafted) = 8,250gp total price Fly [3rd level spell, 5th level caster, duration of 1min/level cost multiplyer *2] 3*5*2*2,000gp = 60*2,000gp = 120,000gp (base) /2 (Self-Crafted) = 60,000gp/4,800xp/lots of credits... Divine Power [4th level spell, 7th level caster, duration of 1 round/level cost mulitplyer *4] 4*5*4*2,000gp = 160*2,000gp = 320,000gp (base) /2 (Self-Crafted) = 160,000gp/12,800xp/lots of credits... Righteous Might [5th level spell, 9th level caster, duration of one round/level cost multiplyer *4] 5*9*4*2,000gp = 360*2,000gp = 720,000gp (base) /2 (Self-Crafted) = 360,000gp/28,800xp/lots of credits... With one use per day these costs can be exponentially lowered, but this is like the dream armor...
MindWandererB 12-19-05, 09:15 PM	How much would it cost me to personally craft an adamantine full plate with the continuous effects of rightious might, fly and divine power. Gold wise/XP wise/Credit wise.... 360,000gp/28,800xp/lots of credits... Even at 1/day, it sounds like with all that you'd be looking at over 200,000 gp base price, which is over the limit for nonepic items.
MindWandererB 12-19-05, 09:26 PM	You are absolutely correct in this, but you must remember that you cannot "recharge" or "renew" such stones. You must buy them wholy new if you want one and keep or sell the partly used stones. Need verification on this. Core rules allow you to upgrade any sort of item by paying the difference in cost. There should be no reason why you can't add a spell to an existing scroll, or a power to an existing stone.
NiQil 12-19-05, 09:33 PM	Need verification on this. Core rules allow you to upgrade any sort of item by paying the difference in cost. There should be no reason why you can't add a spell to an existing scroll, or a power to an existing stone. As requested... All writing implements and materials used to scribe a scroll must be fresh and unused. All materials used to imprint a power stone must be fresh and unused. A scroll/stone that already has spells/powers in it is not fresh and unused.
SauroGrenom 12-19-05, 09:33 PM	Need verification on this. Core rules allow you to upgrade any sort of item by paying the difference in cost. There should be no reason why you can't add a spell to an existing scroll, or a power to an existing stone. Core rules allow arms and armor that is masterwork to be enchanted. Even previously enchanted arms and armor can be enchanted with additional powers. I do not believe that this applies to any other type of time. You cannt upgrade gauntlets of ogre power+2 to +4 or gloves of dex in the same way. Neither can you spend the money to refill a half used wand or staff. In the SRD scroll and powerstone crafting sections we see that all materials must be new and unused. That makes it impossable to add new powers/spells into an already exisiting stone/scroll. Cat has ruled on this and scrolls are expendible items and they cannot be re-scribed.
MindWandererB 12-19-05, 09:41 PM	Core rules allow arms and armor that is masterwork to be enchanted. Even previously enchanted arms and armor can be enchanted with additional powers. I do not believe that this applies to any other type of time. You cannt upgrade gauntlets of ogre power+2 to +4 or gloves of dex in the same way. Neither can you spend the money to refill a half used wand or staff. In the SRD scroll and powerstone crafting sections we see that all materials must be new and unused. That makes it impossable to add new powers/spells into an already exisiting stone/scroll. Cat has ruled on this and scrolls are expendible items and they cannot be re-scribed. Here's the relevant text. It does not specify arms and armor only, but I'll agree with the "new and unused" clause. I would argue that you could add a spell to a scroll that has never been cast from, since it would still be new and unused, but casting a spell from a scroll ought to put it into the "used" category. A creator can add new magical abilities to a magic item with no restrictions. The cost to do this is the same as if the item was not magical. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 sword. If the item is one that occupies a specific place on a character’s body the cost of adding any additional ability to that item increases by 50%. For example, if a character adds the power to confer invisibility to her ring of protection +2, the cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of invisibility multiplied by 1.5.
Ariel23 12-19-05, 10:47 PM	It is a General feat listed under Psionic feats. By your logic, no one but psionic characters could take it. This is why Improved Natural Attack is available to monks...because it is a General feat and not something else. Actually, the Monk thing is a completely different issue entirely. I grant that that was simply your example, but in that case, a Monk has a special ability/listing in her class that says, A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. I would not assume that because the SRD says specifically monks can take "Improved Natural Attack" based on that language that anyone can take any feat no matter where it is listed. This may or may not be true, I am just saying, do not base it upon the Monk/Improved Natural Attack thing. If clerics had a section saying they could take "Any feat relating to the Divine, blah blah blah," then that would be another issue for Divine feats. I would just like to say that I 100% disagree with the Monk's Improved Natural Attack in the sense that the number of Natural Attacks do not increase with level. I.e., a 20th level Monk using Improved Natural Attack should only get 1 attack per round with it. I don't mind that the Monk is an exception, but I don't like exceptions! The Monk is also already an explicit exception under Grappling, and we are about to give them even more exceptions than are provided in the book. *sigh* /endrant
NiQil 12-19-05, 10:54 PM	Actually, the Monk thing is a completely different issue entirely. I grant that that was simply your example, but in that case, a Monk has a special ability/listing in her class that says, I would not assume that because the SRD says specifically monks can take "Improved Natural Attack" based on that language that anyone can take any feat no matter where it is listed. This may or may not be true, I am just saying, do not base it upon the Monk/Improved Natural Attack thing. If clerics had a section saying they could take "Any feat relating to the Divine, blah blah blah," then that would be another issue for Divine feats. I would just like to say that I 100% disagree with the Monk's Improved Natural Attack in the sense that the number of Natural Attacks do not increase with level. I.e., a 20th level Monk using Improved Natural Attack should only get 1 attack per round with it. I don't mind that the Monk is an exception, but I don't like exceptions! The Monk is also already an explicit exception under Grappling, and we are about to give them even more exceptions than are provided in the book. *sigh* /endrant LOL iffn ya don't like exceptions, you might be playin' the wrong game.....D&D seems to be nothing *but exceptions LOL.
Ariel23 12-19-05, 10:54 PM	(Assuming this passes 8-7 as it is currently) by extension this means that a Monk with Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, and Greater Two Weapon Fighting would get yet another +3 Grapple checks per round, for a total of 8/round at 15th level, right? Can Monks use their Flurry ability to gain extra grapple options in a grapple as if they had a higher BAB? possible answers: a) Yes, but they take the standard Flurry penalty to each grapple check for that round. b) No, they may only use Flurry to grant additional attacks using the "Attack your Opponent" grapple option. c) Other (list your idea) Vote here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=552366) if this debate is news to you.
MindWandererB 12-19-05, 10:59 PM	(Assuming this passes 8-7 as it is currently) by extension this means that a Monk with Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, and Greater Two Weapon Fighting would get yet another +3 Grapple checks per round, for a total of 8/round at 15th level, right? No. Regardless of Flurry, you cannot attack with two weapons in a grapple.
NiQil 12-19-05, 11:02 PM	(Assuming this passes 8-7 as it is currently) by extension this means that a Monk with Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, and Greater Two Weapon Fighting would get yet another +3 Grapple checks per round, for a total of 8/round at 15th level, right? Vote here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=552366) if this debate is news to you. No, TWF, ITWF and GTWF would not add additional attacks to a monk flurry in a grapple because they are not a part of the flurry. You can't TWF as a part of a flurry. You can combine TWF and flurry for extra attacks as a total sum in the same round, but some of them are TWF attacks, and some of them are flurry attacks.
MindWandererB 12-19-05, 11:09 PM	You can't TWF as a part of a flurry. You can combine TWF and flurry for extra attacks as a total sum in the same round, but some of them are TWF attacks, and some of them are flurry attacks. I know what you're trying to say, but that has to be the most confusing way imaginable of saying it. For those confused, read the FAQ on the matter. Basically you get all the extra attacks but all the penalties of using both, and the extra attacks granted by TWF are considered off-hand for all purposes. But there's not such thing as an off-hand grapple. Although, I wonder, could you use TWF to make off-hand touch attacks to initiate the grapple?
Ariel23 12-19-05, 11:10 PM	Ah, okay, only 8 attacks per round while grappling and my sorceress will have two. I will consider that nit picked once and for all. :banghead: I don't think D&D is a game of exceptions, I think it's a game of interpretations.
MindWandererB 12-19-05, 11:16 PM	Ah, okay, only 8 attacks per round while grappling and my sorceress will have two. I will consider that nit picked once and for all. :banghead: I don't think D&D is a game of exceptions, I think it's a game of interpretations. Uh, both NiQuil and I just said that's wrong. No off-hand grappling. So the monk only gets 5 tries, compared to the fighter who only gets 4 tries but has a much higher BAB. Monks still make inferior grapplers compared to fighters, at high levels.
Ariel23 12-19-05, 11:27 PM	Uh, both NiQuil and I just said that's wrong. No off-hand grappling. So the monk only gets 5 tries, compared to the fighter who only gets 4 tries but has a much higher BAB. Monks still make inferior grapplers compared to fighters, at high levels. 5 tries at grappling. The monk may also attack 3 times with his/her off-hand.
MindWandererB 12-19-05, 11:31 PM	5 tries at grappling. The monk may also attack 3 times with his/her off-hand. But you can't make off-hand attacks while grappling. Period. If the monk makes four grapple attacks, then uses the fifth to escape the grapple successfully, then and only then could they make three off-hand kicks for good measure. But that's pretty unlikely.
Iced 12-20-05, 12:05 AM	How much would it cost me to personally craft an adamantine full plate with the continuous effects of rightious might, fly and divine power. Gold wise/XP wise/Credit wise. My estimation is: 16,500 (Base) /2 (Self-Crafted) = 8,250gp total price Continuous Effect: Fly [3rd level spell, 5th level caster, duration of 1min/level cost multiplier *2] 3*5*2*2,000gp = 60*2,000gp = 120,000gp (base) /2 (Self-Crafted) = 60,000gp/4,800xp/lots of credits... Alternative: 1/day Fly [3rd level spell, 5th level caster, use 1/day cost multiplier *1/5] 3*5/5*2,000gp = 3*2,000gp = 6,000gp (base) /2 (Self-Crafted) = 3,000gp/240xp/lots of credits... Continuous Effect: Divine Power [4th level spell, 7th level caster, duration of 1 round/level cost mulitplier *4] 4*7*4*2,000gp = 224,000 (base) /2 (Self-Crafted) = 112,000gp/8,960xp/lots of credits... Alternative 1/Day: Divine Power [4th level spell, 7th level caster, 1/day cost multiplier *1/5] 4*7/5*2,000gp = 11,200gp (base) /2 (Self-Crafted) = 5,600gp/448xp/lots of credits... Continuous Effect: Righteous Might [5th level spell, 9th level caster, duration of one round/level cost multiplier *4] 5*9*4*2,000gp = 360*2,000gp = 720,000gp (base) /2 (Self-Crafted) = 360,000gp/28,800xp/lots of credits... Alternative 1/Day: Righteous Might [5th level spell, 9th level caster, 1/day cost multiplier *1/5] 5/5*9*2,000gp = 18,000gp (base) /2 (Self-Crafted) = 9,000gp/720xp/lots of credits... Other Considerations: Once you have a final cost figure, reduce that number if either of the following conditions applies: —Item Requires Skill to Use: Some items require a specific skill to get them to function. This factor should reduce the cost about 10%. —Item Requires Specific Class or Alignment to Use: Even more restrictive than requiring a skill, this limitation cuts the cost by 30%. According to this quote since I'm crafting my own custom item I could go ahead and make it so only chaoric characters could use it and get a 33% price break. I'm not sure if the following would apply: Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar abilities that don’t take up space on a character’s body use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus one-half the value of any other abilities. Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that do take up a space on a character’s body each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price. Both Fly and Righteous might are transmutation spells so I think that I'd be able to get a price break for having two similar abilities of around 75% on the fly, but no price break on the Divine power spell as it is an evocation. A Pearl of power for a third level spell has a base price of 9,000gp, a Pearl of power for a fourth level spell has a base price of 16,000gp, and a pearl of power for a fifth level spell has a base price of 25,000gp for the same effective usable spell slots, but cost no credits to create.
Iced 12-20-05, 12:16 AM	How much would it cost me to personally craft an adamantine full plate with the continuous effects of rightious might, fly and divine power. Gold wise/XP wise/Credit wise. My estimation is: 16,500 (Base) /2 (Self-Crafted) = 8,250gp total price +500xp/40xp for the +1 Enhancement bonus needed to begin enchanting it in the first place... Continuous Effect: Fly [3rd level spell, 5th level caster, duration of 1min/level cost multiplier *2] 3*5*2*2,000gp = 60*2,000gp = 120,000gp (base) /2 (Self-Crafted) = 60,000gp/4,800xp/lots of credits... Alternative: 1/day Fly [3rd level spell, 5th level caster, use 1/day cost multiplier *1/5] 3*5/5*1,800gp = 3*1,800gp = 5,400gp (base) /2 (Self-Crafted) = 2,700gp/216xp/lots of credits... Continuous Effect: Divine Power [4th level spell, 7th level caster, duration of 1 round/level cost mulitplier *4] 4*7*4*2,000gp = 224,000 (base) /2 (Self-Crafted) = 112,000gp/8,960xp/lots of credits... Alternative 1/Day: Divine Power [4th level spell, 7th level caster, 1/day cost multiplier *1/5] 4*7/5*1,800gp = 10,080gp (base) /2 (Self-Crafted) = 5,040gp/403xp/lots of credits... Continuous Effect: Righteous Might [5th level spell, 9th level caster, duration of one round/level cost multiplier *4] 5*9*4*2,000gp = 360*2,000gp = 720,000gp (base) /2 (Self-Crafted) = 360,000gp/28,800xp/lots of credits... Alternative 1/Day: Righteous Might [5th level spell, 9th level caster, 1/day cost multiplier *1/5] 5/5*9*1,800gp = 16,200gp (base) /2 (Self-Crafted) = 8,100gp/648xp/lots of credits... Other Considerations: Once you have a final cost figure, reduce that number if either of the following conditions applies: —Item Requires Skill to Use: Some items require a specific skill to get them to function. This factor should reduce the cost about 10%. —Item Requires Specific Class or Alignment to Use: Even more restrictive than requiring a skill, this limitation cuts the cost by 30%. According to this quote since I'm crafting my own custom item I could go ahead and make it so only chaoric characters could use it and get a 33% price break. I'm not sure if the following would apply: Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar abilities that don’t take up space on a character’s body use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus one-half the value of any other abilities. Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that do take up a space on a character’s body each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price. Both Fly and Righteous might are transmutation spells so I think that I'd be able to get a price break for having two similar abilities of around 75% on the fly, but no price break on the Divine power spell as it is an evocation. A Pearl of power for a third level spell has a base price of 9,000gp, a Pearl of power for a fourth level spell has a base price of 16,000gp, and a pearl of power for a fifth level spell has a base price of 25,000gp for the same effective usable spell slots, but cost no credits to create. The total cost of this item is (all components crafted): 24,590gp +1 Adamantine Full Plate with the ability to cast fly, Divine Power, and Righteous Might 1/day With a 33% Price break on the enchantments the total cost is reduced to 10,560 + 8,750 = 19,310 With the synergy bonus of 75% cost to fly because Righteous might and fly are both transmutation that would bring the price down another 675gp to 18,635gp additional added transmutation effects would be at 50% price breaks after. Let me know if this is an acheivable item for my cleric character.
Cerebus13 12-20-05, 08:20 AM	Does anyone else want to vote on the 4 rules questions I proposed to the community last week? The question pertaining to Monks using Flurry in a grapple still does not have a clear majority so any more votes, especially Elders, would help to come to a concrete solution. The thread in question is here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=552366) and the post with a summary of the current information is here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7991807&postcount=2). Please make your opinion known!
bluemage55 12-20-05, 08:35 AM	How much would it cost me to personally craft an adamantine full plate with the continuous effects of rightious might, fly and divine power. Gold wise/XP wise/Credit wise. Both Fly and Righteous might are transmutation spells so I think that I'd be able to get a price break for having two similar abilities of around 75% on the fly, but no price break on the Divine power spell as it is an evocation. A Pearl of power for a third level spell has a base price of 9,000gp, a Pearl of power for a fourth level spell has a base price of 16,000gp, and a pearl of power for a fifth level spell has a base price of 25,000gp for the same effective usable spell slots, but cost no credits to create. The total cost of this item is (all components crafted): 24,590gp +1 Adamantine Full Plate with the ability to cast fly, Divine Power, and Righteous Might 1/day With a 33% Price break on the enchantments the total cost is reduced to 10,560 + 8,750 = 19,310 With the synergy bonus of 75% cost to fly because Righteous might and fly are both transmutation that would bring the price down another 675gp to 18,635gp additional added transmutation effects would be at 50% price breaks after. Let me know if this is an acheivable item for my cleric character. The price break for restricted alignments is 30%, not 33%. Also, a different ability (your Divine Power ability) would not only keep you from getting a price break, but increase the cost of that ability by 50%.
TheMagister 12-20-05, 11:26 AM	@Caterane Hauber Bulwark (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8017562&postcount=21) has been fixed (again - sorry about my stubbornness) and doublechecked. Can you guys check him out again for me? TM
TheMagister 12-20-05, 11:37 AM	@All I've decided to retire Torgirr Hammerstriker. I just can't get into rangers. TM
Pittbull 12-20-05, 12:09 PM	Could the Elders please get together and decide what the rules are in rewarding gold for monster fights with multiple monsters. Currently I see two different ways that Pitlords reward monster fights: 1. Calculate gold by individual CR Look up the gold reward for each monster separately, cross-referencing individual CR's in the rewards table and summing the resulting gold. Current supporter: Caterane (just look at his last fight, Brifl vs. 2 Behir's, Cat gives away twice the CR 8 gold reward instead of a single CR 10 award). 2. Calculate gold by EL Look at the EL of all the monsters together and cross-reference that with rewards table and get a single gold tally. Current supporter: King Uther Note that things as 'double standard treasure' have nothing to do with this issue. Such things are clearly wrong. The literal text of the CoCo rules seems to point to individual rewards, while fairness/balance seems to point in taking the total EL. If the first rule is accepted, some gladiators will have received too little gold (think about a recent fight vs. 3 ghouls for example) while if the second is accepted, some gladiators will have received too much gold. EDIT: the differences between the two rules could amount to quite a bit of gold (thousands of gp.), especially with higher level gladiators who have received several monster fights. We must go with Option 1. In the Monster List, there are variables. I could also have rolled 1 or 3 Behirs instead of 2. If we just go by the League Rewards (here: 10) instead of the single CRs, then it is no difference between Brilf beating 1, 2, or 3 Behirs. Also note that monsters have no ECL so you cannot use that anyway. Cat has allready ruled. So this is current law. Do you want a change?
Zevox 12-20-05, 03:50 PM	I've another question to pose, this time about Smokesticks. According to the SRD (and PHB), smokesticks activate "when ignited." Neither mention how to do such or what type of action it is, so I'm wondering how precisely they work. Can they be ignited simply by "striking" them (ala a match), or do they need some other source (flint&steel, torch, ect.) to light them? And what type action is lighting them (standard, move, or free)? Any help would be appreciated. Zevox
Ayrynthyn 12-20-05, 04:21 PM	I have a question as well... what would be an appropriate appliaction of the hide skill. With the autospot rule of "1 rank away from cover", sneaking an moving are effectively eliminated as a tactic... I just curious. What would you do with 6 ranks, but 20 hide skill? How would you use that effectively here?
TelinArtho 12-20-05, 04:32 PM	Moving and hiding is difficult to do (and it should be - just think about it some more...), but not impossible. First thing's first - get to the center stack. Now if you have 6 ranks you can set yourself up here: @@.... @.A.@@ ...@@. ...@.. Now if your opponent is along the southern axis or the eastern axis or the western axis - you will always be within 5 ft of cover (as can be seen by taking a 5ft step to the south (for those in the east), east (for those in the south) or north (for those in the west)). The only time you don't have cover in these cases is against someone who is in the center stack with you (which is what will happen when you try to hide there). This happens to be a very effective place to hide from - but at the same time - once you are discovered - you have to break LOS in order to reestablish the hide. Hope that helps.
SoulLord 12-20-05, 04:48 PM	The thing is are you autospotted? If 1) you begin the round Hiding 2) you move through an area with LOS to your Foe and with no Cover or concealment 3) you end your movement in cover or concealment A) Yes Sneaking: You are autospotted if you leave cover or concealment, and opponent has Line of Sight to you and you are more than 1 foot per rank in hide away from a cover. B) No that only applies if you don't end up your movement in cover or concealment
Ayrynthyn 12-20-05, 06:33 PM	Moving and hiding is difficult to do (and it should be - just think about it some more...), but not impossible. First thing's first - get to the center stack. Now if you have 6 ranks you can set yourself up here: @@.... @.A.@@ ...@@. ...@.. Now if your opponent is along the southern axis or the eastern axis or the western axis - you will always be within 5 ft of cover (as can be seen by taking a 5ft step to the south (for those in the east), east (for those in the south) or north (for those in the west)). The only time you don't have cover in these cases is against someone who is in the center stack with you (which is what will happen when you try to hide there). This happens to be a very effective place to hide from - but at the same time - once you are discovered - you have to break LOS in order to reestablish the hide. Hope that helps. I see it... i think. The difference between: Dave the Human Fighter/Rogue, Dex 10, HalfPlate, 6 ranks hide, on a horse and Instacio the Halfling Rogue, Dex 20, Cloak of Elven Kind, and 6 ranks hide ...is how easy they are to spot once hidden. Regardless of abliltity, racial bounuses, size, or gear, a character 2nd to 6th level must be within 1 square of Cover inorder to Hide. Best case a 7th to 11th level character must be within 2 squares of cover, and a 12-16th level character must be within 3 squares of cover inorder to hide. This is of course assuming max ranks along the way... hmm. I need to digest this... somethings still bothering me, but im not sure what. The drive home will set me straight, im sure... Thanks for the insight.
Ayrynthyn 12-20-05, 06:36 PM	I've another question to pose, this time about Smokesticks. According to the SRD (and PHB), smokesticks activate "when ignited." Neither mention how to do such or what type of action it is, so I'm wondering how precisely they work. Can they be ignited simply by "striking" them (ala a match), or do they need some other source (flint&steel, torch, ect.) to light them? And what type action is lighting them (standard, move, or free)? Any help would be appreciated. Zevox im not sure on this either, but in the one fight i used them, they didnt require a fire source. I carry Tindertwigs, flint & steel, and torches though... just in case, and i'll ask the Pitlord if i use them in my tactics...
Ariel23 12-20-05, 07:34 PM	My fight's over and I can now edit Evaine (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7991019&postcount=571) [ECL 3] to remove my violation [PBJ] but I need a ruling on whether or not Deep Crystal is masterwork. Actually, I should say we all need a ruling, as I'm not the only one with Deep Crystal items. Not that it's actually a vote, but it's currently 3 to 1 (3) Deep Crystal is masterwork: myself, DTFarstar, Telinartho (1) Not masterwork: Lonewolf available here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8005790&postcount=731)Price for mwk deepcrystal longsword is wrong. Items made of deepcrystal are not automatically masterwork, so the 300gp for making it masterwork have to be payed extra.and here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8008804&postcount=739)Do you have a source for that? Because neither in the SRD nor in th XPH is stated anything like this AFAIK. And please dont make this a discussion RAW vs common sense or sonething. As long as its not noted anywhere that the costs are included you have to pay them.Available here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8049599&postcount=463) Mundane Crystal "possesses the properties of a similar masterwork steel weapon or armor" and "Deep Crystal is a better grade" than Mundane Crystal. Also, "any weapon made of deep crystal costs 1,000 gp more than its noncrystal counterpart." [All quotes SRD] [I.e., if Mundane Crystal is always of masterwork quality and Deep Crystal is better than Mundane Crystal, then Deep Crystal is masterwork, too.] [Added for clarity] If you are correct, all (lesser) mundane crystal weapons must be made masterwork, but the better grade deep crystal ones aren't. And all mithral, adamantine, and dragonhide (all the expensive ones) are masterwork...but deep crystal is not. And any untrained smith off the street can make a deep crystal weapon of average quality...how can you even make a non-masterwork sword of crystal? It must take an enormous amount of skill... It definitely does not say that masterwork is included in the Deep Crystal price. But it doesn't say that it isn't, and logically if it is for the others it would just make sense that a Deep Crystal weapon would be masterwork. At least tell me that the masterwork cost is not included but that you must make the weapon masterwork. It seems very dumb to have a run-of-the-mill sword of deep crystal. [Not to mention the 1,000 gold it cost to obtain it. For the record, the same price as 10,000 pounds of iron!]Available here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8008817&postcount=740) *shrug* Crystal, Deep Deep crystal is crystal of above-average quality found at the hearts of large veins or deposits of mundane crystal (see below). Deep crystal is renowned for its strength and its psionically resonant nature. Mundane crystal is used for many items of psionic manufacture, such as dorjes, power stones, and psicrystals. Deep crystal is a better grade. While a weapon made of deep crystal is no different from a mundane crystal weapon for a nonpsionic character, a psionic wielder of a deep crystal weapon can focus psionic power through it, increasing the damage that weapon deals... And as such Crystal, Mundane Mundane crystal can be used in place of metal in weapons or armor, using a special forging process. The fortified crystal possesses the properties of a similar masterwork steel weapon or armor, except for visual appearance. So, unless Deep Crystal weapons are supposed to be masterwork for non-psionic and normal for psionic characters, I would say this is pretty clear.Available here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8006322&postcount=733) Actually deep crystal is masterworked by default - so the 300gp is included in the price.
MindWandererB 12-20-05, 07:41 PM	I'll put in my 2 cents: "weapon made of deep crystal is no different from a mundane crystal weapon for a nonpsionic character... The fortified [mundane] crystal possesses the properties of a similar masterwork steel weapon or armor, except for visual appearance." So I agree with DTFarstar's logic. However, Lonewolf also has a point: "Any weapon made of deep crystal costs 1,000 gp more than its noncrystal counterpart." One might argue that its "noncrystal counterpart" is a masterwork weapon. This would suggest that it is impossible to make a deep crystal weapon that is not masterwork, but that you still have to pay the masterwork costs (the same way darkwood works, for example).
MindWandererB 12-20-05, 08:07 PM	I have two more questions. Again. 1) When the 10-round delay maximum is reached, what are the pitlord's options for interfering? Example: a levitating character is bombarding the other with ranged attacks. The other character hides behind cover. Does the audience just start chucking 1d4 damage beer bottles at both of them until one dies or they start fighting again? If so, it might be a viable option for a high-HP character to just sit it out and wait for death by heckling. 2) Can a character use a leather thong or cord to tie a wand to their wrist? So if they drop it, it goes nowhere (although they'd probably still need a move action to ready it again). If not, why not?
Ariel23 12-20-05, 09:07 PM	The 10 round delay is only invoked if there is no action at all. Someone firing ranged attacks is meaningful interaction. Who knows what pleases a crowd of hooligans? IMHO going Invisible should be illegal. Who would pay to see [or not see] that?
Luni 12-20-05, 10:13 PM	The 10 round delay is only invoked if there is no action at all. Someone firing ranged attacks is meaningful interaction. Who knows what pleases a crowd of hooligans? IMHO going Invisible should be illegal. Who would pay to see [or not see] that? When everyone household has a Crystal ball with True seeing cast on it, it is irrelevant. :) And then there is the giant Cystaltron that is the arena itself. Those looking in, see everything that happens.
Warclone 12-21-05, 01:51 AM	Is there a point for requesting a higher league in my character's subject? I've done it 4 times now and I have never been paired in the 1 level higher bracket. Funny thing is, last time both my ECL3 characters asked to be put in league 4. That means its impossible for less than one of my characters to be paired in the level 4 bracket except due to negligence. :(
Luni 12-21-05, 03:00 AM	Is there a point for requesting a higher league in my character's subject? I've done it 4 times now and I have never been paired in the 1 level higher bracket. Funny thing is, last time both my ECL3 characters asked to be put in league 4. That means its impossible for less than one of my characters to be paired in the level 4 bracket except due to negligence. :( Hrm. I think it is a matter of simply being too busy. It is probably 10 pm Caterane time when the editing clock is up. I'm just glad he has time to do it at all on Wednesday. If he was to allow special requests, they would probably take him longer. Of course, with Usurpator working on a program to help Caterane, he might allow such provisions to happen in the future.
Maraxus 12-21-05, 03:26 AM	I have two more questions. Again. 1) When the 10-round delay maximum is reached, what are the pitlord's options for interfering? Example: a levitating character is bombarding the other with ranged attacks. The other character hides behind cover. Does the audience just start chucking 1d4 damage beer bottles at both of them until one dies or they start fighting again? If so, it might be a viable option for a high-HP character to just sit it out and wait for death by heckling. How did my Pixie Noko lost her first fight? That high hit point monster of a dwarf just sit down there at the ground, and waited for me to run out of arrows. So: Yes, it is a viable option and it worked at least once. :) But never again, now, that Noko brings a load of arrows to the arena, aproxibitly her own weigth. ;)
Sindorin 12-21-05, 04:24 AM	Is there a point for requesting a higher league in my character's subject? I've done it 4 times now and I have never been paired in the 1 level higher bracket. Funny thing is, last time both my ECL3 characters asked to be put in league 4. That means its impossible for less than one of my characters to be paired in the level 4 bracket except due to negligence. :( Dude, I feel for anyone who gets paired down. You get less rewards. I would rather have a monster fight.
Usurpator 12-21-05, 04:39 AM	Hrm. I think it is a matter of simply being too busy. It is probably 10 pm Caterane time when the editing clock is up. I'm just glad he has time to do it at all on Wednesday. If he was to allow special requests, they would probably take him longer. Of course, with Usurpator working on a program to help Caterane, he might allow such provisions to happen in the future. I will add the possibility in the future. Programming the exceptions is the most work, like Tellish of Ket saying 'Will fight two ECL 4 gladiators' with his ECL 6 Krunch. Those kind of exceptions are a programmers nightmare, especially since you don't want to pair Krunch against two ECL 4's if it mean's that another ECL 4 will become the odd one out. Warclone, look at it like this, being paired in a higher or lower league is primarily a solution for gladiators who won't get paired otherwise (because of being the odd one out for example). Besides, my gladiators normally don't want to fight a lower league gladiator anyway.
Macbrea 12-21-05, 08:42 AM	I honestly don't want to fight the league below me unless I am odd man out. What point is there to a person one league below me getting to fight in my league? They should earn the position or be the odd man out that gets pairs upwords.
Macbrea 12-21-05, 08:57 AM	If we are going to be allowed to fight above our league by request. Then I have a permanent request for Gorak to fight 2 ECL above his position. As he is probably going to loose anyways. So, I might as well get the most exp for each of my losses.
Cerebus13 12-21-05, 10:04 AM	Would a suit of regular clothing count as armor for the purposes of enchanting it?
TelinArtho 12-21-05, 10:19 AM	If we are going to be allowed to fight above our league by request. Then I have a permanent request for Gorak to fight 2 ECL above his position. As he is probably going to loose anyways. So, I might as well get the most exp for each of my losses. Actually, if you are fighting above your league and you lose, you get the same rewards as if you were fighting in your league because the way the rewards are capped if you lose. The only difference is that if you win, you get higher rewards.
Macbrea 12-21-05, 10:23 AM	Would a suit of regular clothing count as armor for the purposes of enchanting it? As craft arms and armor requires you use Mastwork Armor for enchanting you cannot add armor enchantments to a shirt. What you can do is make a non-standard Bracers of armor at the shirt location. You will notice that both the Robe of the Archmagi and the Bracers of Armor require Craft wonderous item and mage armor in order to get the +X armor bonus.
Macbrea 12-21-05, 10:24 AM	Actually, if you are fighting above your league and you lose, you get the same rewards as if you were fighting in your league because the way the rewards are capped if you lose. The only difference is that if you win, you get higher rewards. Hmm, correct.. but what the heck. He might as well fight that far above! He isn't winning were he is.
Wind 12-21-05, 10:35 AM	patience, young padawan
Book5 12-21-05, 11:31 AM	did I hear something? ... :looloo: Must have been the wind....
Cerebus13 12-21-05, 11:39 AM	As craft arms and armor requires you use Mastwork Armor for enchanting you cannot add armor enchantments to a shirt. What you can do is make a non-standard Bracers of armor at the shirt location. You will notice that both the Robe of the Archmagi and the Bracers of Armor require Craft wonderous item and mage armor in order to get the +X armor bonus.Erm, I meant for enchanting the clothing the with the feat Craft Magical Arms and Armor. Does this mean that if you make a non-standard position "Shirt" of Armor (instead of Bracers of Armor) that you could enchant it with stuff like Light Fortification?
TelinArtho 12-21-05, 11:41 AM	@Cerebus - no you can't enchant a regular shirt with armor enhancements.
DTFarstar 12-21-05, 12:42 PM	@Cerebus13 : If you make a non-standard "Shirt" of Armor with the Craft Wondrous Item feat, then it functions in all ways as Bracers of Armor and just costs different for the non-standard slot.(IIRC) Still takes the same feats and spells and such.
Guildmaster (TLT) 12-21-05, 01:04 PM	Hi everyone! If anyone wants to drop by The Living Tree (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=501578) for any roleplaying, feel free to do so. You don't have to stay and join the guild, though you are more then welcome too. Just don't go over to The Warfare Alliance. They are a bunch of drunks that don't like rhinos! Cheers, Luni
Ayrynthyn 12-21-05, 01:25 PM	*curses the lack of search* I have a question about rewards... I could have sworn that i read somewhere that Class Allies dont cause the XP penalty, but the opponent still gets the bonus. Granted this doesnt make much sense, but it wouldnt be the first item i'd put into that catagory. The winner receives the full rewards according to the table. The loser also receives XP but only 1/3 of what he would have gotten in case of a win. Also, the loser can never get more XP than 100 * (his current ECL) by losing a fight. For example, if the loser is ECL 12 and loses against an ECL 15 gladiator, he should gain (10,800/3) = 3,600 XP. However, the rule limiting XP in case of a loss cuts that down to 1,200 XP gained. In case a gladiator enters with an ally that does not come from a class feature he suffers an xp penalty. Likewise, the gladiator who fought without an ally (other than a class feature ally) gets a xp bonus. Please check the FAQ: Cohorts and Allies for guidelines. ...The part in bold is worded horribly, but in my last fight, i fought with out an "ally (other than a class feature ally)". i have no class feature ally that would need that exception. I have no allies at all... This goes against my understanding of how things should work, but... im just confusing myself at this point. can anyone offer me some clarity??
NiQil 12-21-05, 01:35 PM	*curses the lack of search* I have a question about rewards... I could have sworn that i read somewhere that Class Allies dont cause the XP penalty, but the opponent still gets the bonus. Granted this doesnt make much sense, but it wouldnt be the first item i'd put into that catagory. ...The part in bold is worded horribly, but in my last fight, i fought with out an "ally (other than a class feature ally)". i have no class feature ally that would need that exception. I have no allies at all... This goes against my understanding of how things should work, but... im just confusing myself at this point. can anyone offer me some clarity?? Class allies (familiars, animal companions, paladin mounts, etc) provide neither a penalty nor bonus to either combatant.
Usurpator 12-21-05, 01:46 PM	Question: What are efficient ways of teaching your animals tricks? Currently Nexa's animal companion still needs to be taught 4 tricks, and she has three wolves which also need to be taught 14 tricks among them. At the current rate Nexa is levelling, she will be 13th lvl by the time she has taught them those tricks, that's just way too slow. She can continue crafting and selling, crafting and selling, just to get the free activity that goes along with it, but I guess that's a bit weird... Can you train multiple animals at the same time (that would help a lot)?
waywreth 12-21-05, 01:49 PM	You can hire an NPC trainer to train your animal. The downside is that they can't join you in the arena that week - the upside is that the character can still fight, and the cost is pretty cheap.
Usurpator 12-21-05, 01:53 PM	You can hire an NPC trainer to train your animal. The downside is that they can't join you in the arena that week - the upside is that the character can still fight, and the cost is pretty cheap. I specifically don't want to fight, because that way I level too quickly for the animals to be of any use to me once I got them properly trained.
Macbrea 12-21-05, 01:56 PM	Fees for Animal Trainers: Basic Animals.......50 gp (per trick) Animals and Magical Beast acquired on quests can be trained by a trainer but it requires six weeks to complete during which the beast is not available. You could send them all off for 6 weeks to animal school. They would come back fully trained assuming you spent the gold.
TelinArtho 12-21-05, 01:57 PM	I found I had the exact same problem when I started using animals (or rather vermin...) with Vakkor. Essentially - I gave up on that line of possibilities because it just takes too long. With Faelto, I'm planning on miniquesting for future class feature allies before they would become them so that they can be fully trained before using them. Essentially, animals are a severe leg down from diplomacy allies because of the whole training issue. Perhaps a petition should be made to make the handled animals more viable should be proposed - such as training multiple animals with the same trick in one week (up to 1 animal/ECL or something). Not sure if that will fly though.
Usurpator 12-21-05, 02:08 PM	You could send them all off for 6 weeks to animal school. They would come back fully trained assuming you spent the gold. Well, essentially I am having a problem with this for two reasons. I have a good handle animal skill, but I cannot make good use of it to teach animals tricks, because it just takes way too long currently. And I can only shorten it by paying a lot of money, and I think training animals for free should be the primary advantage of the skill. Besides that, six weeks without your animal companion as Druid is kind of a problem. It is like not having a powerful class feature for six weeks. I can work around the six weeks by crafting and selling, essentially paying credits (and money) just to train animals. But if I fight in the arena I am not only missing the animals, but also levelling so quickly that by the time the animal is properly trained I may already qualify for a new animal companion. It makes sense to me if you can just train your animal companions in weeks you are inactive. It is not that a big advantage....
Luni 12-21-05, 02:10 PM	Yeah, you go to train animals early. It is silly. For example, getting a tiger to use for when you are level 8, means that you should MQ and start training it at level 6. By the time it is done training, you are level 8. :) I do think animal allies need to be trained simultaneously though. Perhaps just along family lines? eg. train wolf, dire wolf, attack dog seek Dec 21.
Myrridin 12-21-05, 02:14 PM	I am spending 20 of my credits to create an ECL 8 character Morgan macNiven (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=8056415#post8056415) for use in questing with Daeren Stronghammer. That said, I wouldn't mind starting to run a quest starting on December 28, so if someone wants to start one that week, please PM me.
Macbrea 12-21-05, 02:22 PM	It should be noted that if it is your animal companion your bonus tricks are trained with no training time at all. As per the description of druid. Bonus Tricks The value given in this column is the total number of "bonus" tricks that the animal knows in addition to any that the druid might choose to teach it (see the Handle Animal skill). These bonus tricks don’t require any training time or Handle Animal checks, and they don’t count against the normal limit of tricks known by the animal. The druid selects these bonus tricks, and once selected, they can’t be changed. But that doesn't really help you.
TheMagister 12-21-05, 02:50 PM	I have a question pertaining to Armor Spikes as they are currently used: Currently, one can wield a longbow/shortbow in both hands and still threaten within their natural reach with their armor spikes. It is assumed the wielder is kicking, kneeing, or elbowing with them. My question is: if you are doing this (kicking, etc.), aren't you using the armor spikes as a light off-hand weapon? Both of your hands are on your two-handed ranged weapon, so the apparent answer is "Yes". Now, if this is so, why doesn't the person wielding the bow/spikes combo take penalties while he does so? I propose that if a person wants to both wield a ranged/reach weapon AND threaten with armor spikes, that person needs to declare so at the beginning of his combat round and take all the penalties associated with Two Weapon Fighting on his attacks that round, whether he uses his armor spikes or not. For example: A fighter wearing spiked armor and wielding a longspear is fighting an unarmed assailant. The longspear fighter does NOT have combat reflexes. Not wanting to be grappled by this assailant (who could move in, provoke an AoO from the longspear, and then touch attack/grapple the fighter), the longspear fighter declares that he will be threatening with his armor spikes. The longspear fighter then makes an attack against the unarmed fighter at a -6 penalty (he doesn't have TWF). The longspear fighter knows that he will also take a -10 penalty on his attack roll that he makes for the AoO generated when the unarmed fighter tries to touch him to initiate a grapple. Does this make sense to anyone? TM
TelinArtho 12-21-05, 02:54 PM	Because you only suffer the penalties of two-weapon fighting when using the full-attack action and only for that action itself. If you are wielding a long and short sword in hand and fight with both of them during your round, and then someone provokes an AoO - you do not suffer the penalties of TWF for the AoO.
Snommelp 12-21-05, 02:57 PM	It's a free action to take a hand off of a two-handed weapon, so the armor spikes can be used with the dominant hand (unless I missed some rule somewhere, which is definitely possible). Of the PHB classes, the one I am least familiar with is the druid. This isn't a good thing, since there are a lot of druids here in the CoCo. Therefore, I'm going to make one of my own, in order to get a better grasp on the class. Any suggestions on race selection, spell selection, or anything else? All I've really decided on is my animal companion: a riding dog, trained for war so that it can trip like a wolf.
NiQil 12-21-05, 03:05 PM	It's a free action to take a hand off of a two-handed weapon, so the armor spikes can be used with the dominant hand (unless I missed some rule somewhere, which is definitely possible). Of the PHB classes, the one I am least familiar with is the druid. This isn't a good thing, since there are a lot of druids here in the CoCo. Therefore, I'm going to make one of my own, in order to get a better grasp on the class. Any suggestions on race selection, spell selection, or anything else? All I've really decided on is my animal companion: a riding dog, trained for war so that it can trip like a wolf. If you are going with the riding dog, then I would suggest a small race so that you can use the riding dog as a mount. Goblins are good for this, as they have an inherent racial affinity for riding. That gives you mounted combat with no xp/gp penalties for your mount. Or a flanking partner. Druids can either be exceptional melee combatants that use their spells in support of that, or they can be exceptional spellcasters who use their combat abilities in support of that. You can go either way...and with careful planning, can achieve both.
Altaris13 12-21-05, 03:11 PM	I have a question pertaining to Armor Spikes as they are currently used: Currently, one can wield a longbow/shortbow in both hands and still threaten within their natural reach with their armor spikes. It is assumed the wielder is kicking, kneeing, or elbowing with them. My question is: if you are doing this (kicking, etc.), aren't you using the armor spikes as a light off-hand weapon? Both of your hands are on your two-handed ranged weapon, so the apparent answer is "Yes". Now, if this is so, why doesn't the person wielding the bow/spikes combo take penalties while he does so? I propose that if a person wants to both wield a ranged/reach weapon AND threaten with armor spikes, that person needs to declare so at the beginning of his combat round and take all the penalties associated with Two Weapon Fighting on his attacks that round, whether he uses his armor spikes or not. For example: A fighter wearing spiked armor and wielding a longspear is fighting an unarmed assailant. The longspear fighter does NOT have combat reflexes. Not wanting to be grappled by this assailant (who could move in, provoke an AoO from the longspear, and then touch attack/grapple the fighter), the longspear fighter declares that he will be threatening with his armor spikes. The longspear fighter then makes an attack against the unarmed fighter at a -6 penalty (he doesn't have TWF). The longspear fighter knows that he will also take a -10 penalty on his attack roll that he makes for the AoO generated when the unarmed fighter tries to touch him to initiate a grapple. Does this make sense to anyone? TM Armorspikes do not count as Two Weapon Fighting. In Races of Stone there is the Axespike Tactical Feat. It allows one to use a greataxe for a full attaack and get an extra attack with the armorspikes. The armorspikes, iirc, are treated as a secondary attack rather than a second weapon.
NiQil 12-21-05, 03:19 PM	I have a question pertaining to Armor Spikes as they are currently used: Currently, one can wield a longbow/shortbow in both hands and still threaten within their natural reach with their armor spikes. It is assumed the wielder is kicking, kneeing, or elbowing with them. My question is: if you are doing this (kicking, etc.), aren't you using the armor spikes as a light off-hand weapon? Both of your hands are on your two-handed ranged weapon, so the apparent answer is "Yes". Now, if this is so, why doesn't the person wielding the bow/spikes combo take penalties while he does so? I propose that if a person wants to both wield a ranged/reach weapon AND threaten with armor spikes, that person needs to declare so at the beginning of his combat round and take all the penalties associated with Two Weapon Fighting on his attacks that round, whether he uses his armor spikes or not. For example: A fighter wearing spiked armor and wielding a longspear is fighting an unarmed assailant. The longspear fighter does NOT have combat reflexes. Not wanting to be grappled by this assailant (who could move in, provoke an AoO from the longspear, and then touch attack/grapple the fighter), the longspear fighter declares that he will be threatening with his armor spikes. The longspear fighter then makes an attack against the unarmed fighter at a -6 penalty (he doesn't have TWF). The longspear fighter knows that he will also take a -10 penalty on his attack roll that he makes for the AoO generated when the unarmed fighter tries to touch him to initiate a grapple. Does this make sense to anyone? TM Not really, no LOL. Just because you have a weapon exposed to threaten a certain area does not mean you take penalties for holding the weapon. It's only when you attack with two weapons that you take penalties. A good example of this is fighting sword and board style with a shield with shield spikes. If someone is fighting with sword and shield, and never attacking with the spikes, should they take penalties for TWF because the spikes are built onto the shield? Hell no. But if they get disarmed of the sword, well now they have a secondary weapon that they can turn to.
Altaris13 12-21-05, 03:22 PM	Not really, no LOL. Just because you have a weapon exposed to threaten a certain area does not mean you take penalties for holding the weapon. It's only when you attack with two weapons that you take penalties. A good example of this is fighting sword and board style with a shield with shield spikes. If someone is fighting with sword and shield, and never attacking with the spikes, should they take penalties for TWF because the spikes are built onto the shield? Hell no. But if they get disarmed of the sword, well now they have a secondary weapon that they can turn to. On the same token, you can bash with a regular shield. So TM, you're basically proposing that we apply TWF penalties to anyone with anything in either/both hands or wearing something than can be used to attack.
Macbrea 12-21-05, 03:29 PM	Ok, as a small rider you are allowed to ride either a Wolf or a Riding dog. The riding dog has a 40ft movement and a 15 str, but no trip ability. The Wolf has a 50ft movement, a 13 str and trip. As a small druid your going to want to be very careful getting within grapple range of some of your opponents out there. They will pluck you off your dog and tear you to pieces. What real advantage your going to discover is movement upon a dog/wolf will allow you to position yourself exactly where you want to go. You will be at the ranges you want and have the ability to retreat easily. Both Bastion and Mektos fight off eagle back because it allows us to knife fight with our ranged attacks. From Dog/Wolf back you can do the same thing. Your spells are designed in such a fashion to impede movement and damage those that don't have protection vs fire or plants. If you get up close your going to discover you don't have the strength to compare up against a good warrior. And in the case of a wizard they will out blast you. Given that information you can still fight hand to hand with a small character using your abilities if you design yourself correctly. You will need to glance through the spells to see what you think would work and wouldn't. My suggested feats for a 3rd level druid designed for combat riding would be: Mounted Combat (to defend against 1 attack) and Craft wonderous object. Race selection is more a matter of preference. I choose Kobold for Mektos because Sorcorer is the Favored class of them. One level of Sorceror has pretty much won his fights for him.
TheMagister 12-21-05, 03:31 PM	On the same token, you can bash with a regular shield. So TM, you're basically proposing that we apply TWF penalties to anyone with anything in either/both hands or wearing something than can be used to attack. No. I'm saying that there is something wrong (IMO) with a character wielding a bow (actually using it to fire in a given round) and still threatening a 5' area with armor spikes. I'm proposing the instatement of a penalty akin to the TWF penalty or secondary weapon penalty (-5, and I like this one much better. It fits conceptually into what I'm thinking) to an AoO with armor spikes after a character has already weilded and made an attack with a primary weapon. It just seems more fair. All I'm asking for is another look. TM
TheMagister 12-21-05, 03:33 PM	Also, check out the quest The Darkness at Noon (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=548931). Its really heating up. What would YOU do in this situation? TM
TroubleWolf 12-21-05, 03:33 PM	So, does anyone do any actual online roleplaying based on these boards? I like the number-crunching battle part of it, but I think it would be fun to write some RP based on these characters in this city.
TelinArtho 12-21-05, 03:35 PM	Yes - check out the guilds, the quests and the campaigns. There's plenty of role playing going on and about.
NiQil 12-21-05, 03:36 PM	No. I'm saying that there is something wrong (IMO) with a character wielding a bow (actually using it to fire in a given round) and still threatening a 5' area with armor spikes. I'm proposing the instatement of a penalty akin to the TWF penalty or secondary weapon penalty (-5, and I like this one much better. It fits conceptually into what I'm thinking) to an AoO with armor spikes after a character has already weilded and made an attack with a primary weapon. It just seems more fair. All I'm asking for is another look. TM Would you impose this same penalty on someone wielding a longspear or glaive, so that they threaten at both 5 and 10 ft? What you are calling for is not the RAW, and, in my opinion, not only unnecessarily imposes penalties, but also takes away the advantage of having armor spikes in the first place. Your rule would cause armor spikes to be near useless for everyone. What you think is wrong is exactly what armor spikes are designed to do...allow someone to threaten an area around them even if the weapon they wield doesn't.
TheMagister 12-21-05, 03:59 PM	Would you impose this same penalty on someone wielding a longspear or glaive, so that they threaten at both 5 and 10 ft? Yes, because it allows someone to have a great advantage (reach) with no disadvantage (no penalty to hit, even though making use of two weapons). What you are calling for is not the RAW I know this...I'm looking for opinions. and, in my opinion, not only unnecessarily imposes penalties, but also takes away the advantage of having armor spikes in the first place. Your rule would cause armor spikes to be near useless for everyone. What you think is wrong is exactly what armor spikes are designed to do...allow someone to threaten an area around them even if the weapon they wield doesn't. Thank you, that's what I'm looking for. It just seems wrong, is all. I have the same (small) problem with spiked chains, and that seperate issue is only mitigated because a character has to spend a feat to effectively make use of the spiked chain. Armor spikes are a free workaround. They're the thing that any fighter would say, "Why WOULDN'T I have armor spikes?! Everyone should have them!". Because they're TOO useful. Again, this is all in my opinion. I just think there should be some penalty to using them as a secondary attack when your primary attack doesn't threaten. That is my opinion. TM
MindWandererB 12-21-05, 05:16 PM	Since I apparently miscommunicated one of my questions, and the second was never addressed, I'm re-posting them. 1) When the 10-round delay maximum is reached, what are the pitlord's options for interfering? Example: a levitating character is bombarding the other with ranged attacks. The other character hides behind total cover. The levitating character can't move horizontally to get a better shot and refuses to land, and the hiding character refuses to just come out and get pelted. Does the audience just start chucking 1d4 damage beer bottles at both of them until one dies or they start fighting again? If so, it might be a viable option for a high-HP character to just sit it out and wait for death by heckling. 2) Can a character use a leather thong or cord to tie a wand to their wrist? So if they drop it, it goes nowhere (although they'd probably still need a move action to ready it again). If not, why not? Regarding armor spikes: yes, per RAW, they are (almost) a free workaround. I say almost because they are a martial weapon proficiency. I was considering making an elf cleric with War domain, choosing a reach weapon, and then tried to figure out a way to get armor spikes. Couldn't do it without multiclassing or blowing a feat. I suppose I could go longspear and armor spikes, but that kind of sucks. But yeah, armor spikes are one of the worst parts of the core rules and I don't think they'll make it into the next edition--not only can they negate reach, but they let you TWF with a two-handed weapon. Then all you need is Improved Buckler Defense from Races of Stone and you can use a two-handed weapon, and off-hand weapon, and a shield all at once! Now that's munchkinly.
Altaris13 12-21-05, 06:03 PM	<snip> Now that's munchkinly. And? That's why we're here. :P RE: 1) That's a Pitlord call, and it will very from pitlord to pitlord. Me personally? I dunno what I'd do. They are both avoiding the other, and the second character's tactics, though viable, are what is causing the 10 round delay. I'd probably have an NPC caster in the crowds use Dispel Magic on the levitating archer.
Luni 12-21-05, 08:49 PM	Can someone explain to me how the Feather Token: Whip is supposed to work? Whip A token that forms into a huge leather whip and wields itself against any opponent desired just like a dancing weapon. The weapon has a +10 base attack bonus, does 1d6+1 points of damage, has a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls, and a makes a free grapple attack (with a +15 attack bonus) if it hits. The whip lasts no longer than 1 hour. Ok, so it is like a dancing weapon. Dancing As a standard action, a dancing weapon can be loosed to attack on its own. It fights for 4 rounds using the base attack bonus of the one who loosed it and then drops. While dancing, it cannot make attacks of opportunity, and the person who activated it is not considered armed with the weapon. In all other respects, it is considered wielded or attended by the creature for all maneuvers and effects that target items. While dancing, it takes up the same space as the activating character and can attack adjacent foes (weapons with reach can attack opponents up to 10 feet away). The dancing weapon accompanies the person who activated it everywhere, whether she moves by physical or magical means. If the wielder who loosed it has an unoccupied hand, she can grasp it while it is attacking on its own as a free action; when so retrieved the weapon can’t dance (attack on its own) again for 4 rounds. Ok, so what is the point of having the whip grapple something, when it can't leave my square?
MindWandererB 12-21-05, 08:56 PM	Ok, so what is the point of having the whip grapple something, when it can't leave my square? If it makes a free grapple attack when it hits, presumably it is treated as having the Improved Grab ability, which allows the grabber to pull the grabbee into its square. Of course, that would pull the opponent into your square, which also presents problems. Hmm.
Ravashack 12-21-05, 09:44 PM	Whips are melee ranged weapons. Whip: A whip deals nonlethal damage. It deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher. The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don’t threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes). Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon. You can make trip attacks with a whip. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the whip to avoid being tripped. When using a whip, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to keep from being disarmed if the attack fails). You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a whip sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon for you. Therefore, it's ok that it stays in the user's square, because it can reach in a 15 ft radius around it. And since it's dancing around, there's no one to take an AOO on when it attacks. The Feather Token whip as far as I can tell is a special case in that it deals actual damage instead of non-lethal damage. Also, if they're grappling the whip, they can't really attack, can they? :)
Cerebus13 12-21-05, 10:08 PM	If you do not have the requisite stat requirement for a Feat, like say 13 Int, can you wear a magical item that raises a stat and pick up the feat? (like Headband of Intellect)
Luni 12-21-05, 10:30 PM	Whips are melee ranged weapons. Therefore, it's ok that it stays in the user's square, because it can reach in a 15 ft radius around it. And since it's dancing around, there's no one to take an AOO on when it attacks. The Feather Token whip as far as I can tell is a special case in that it deals actual damage instead of non-lethal damage. Also, if they're grappling the whip, they can't really attack, can they? :) You misunderstand me. :) 3 questions about the feather token: 1) Does it take 2 Standard Actions to use? 1 to activate the token, 1 to activate the dancing part. 2) Does the activater have to regrab the whip every 4 rounds when the dancing effect ends. 3) How does it grapple work?
MitzaVolchenko 12-21-05, 10:40 PM	Greetings and well met...I'm new around here and will hazard a guess as an answer to Cerebus13's question. There is nothing that I could find that was either a yes or no answer to it, though by personal preference I would say no. However it should be noted that if at any point the item you are wearing to allow for the feat is removed, just like losing the use of feats from stat damagers like ray of enfeeblement on str based feats, you lose the use of that feat and all feats that use it as a prerequisite. It is chancy and probably not too wise if anyone notices that is what gives you the pre-req as destroying/removing the item rips all manner of fun stuff off of you really fast. I look forward to being beaten repeatedly and severly with dead ardvarks by most if not all of you :D
Zevox 12-21-05, 10:52 PM	Eh, since I don't seem to have gotten answers to these when I last posted them, I'll repeat them and hope for the best: 1. Smokesticks - what type of action is lighting one, and how do you light it? 2. Should scroll scribing be listed under the "characters crafting and enchanting" list in the weekly actions? My Abjurer is scribing a scroll he requires, and hes not listed there as I suspected he would be, so I'd like to ensure his scribing is being counted. Zevox
Book5 12-21-05, 11:00 PM	Welcome Mitza!! I will probably slobber on you with my St. Bernards rather than my dead ardvarks! Umm, @Cerburus 13 - Last time I brought it up it was declared thusly Stat boosting Items do indeed provide you with the "virtual requisites" need to take feats and prestige classes (with Mitza's "you snooze you loose" clause). I have always been a proponent of allowing a large number of virtual requisets - but only the stat buff are CoCo kosher.
Luni 12-21-05, 11:24 PM	Eh, since I don't seem to have gotten answers to these when I last posted them, I'll repeat them and hope for the best: 1. Smokesticks - what type of action is lighting one, and how do you light it? 2. Should scroll scribing be listed under the "characters crafting and enchanting" list in the weekly actions? My Abjurer is scribing a scroll he requires, and hes not listed there as I suspected he would be, so I'd like to ensure his scribing is being counted. Zevox Unofficial Answers: 1) Standard action with a tindertwig, full round without one. Treat the smokestick as a torch 2) I don't think we worry about scrolls or powerstones, unless you are making like 1000 gp worth in one sitting.
Snommelp 12-21-05, 11:30 PM	I've seen Goodberry used as a prebuff before, so I'm wondering: how? Do I just assume the maximum number of berries, do I roll it and link it, do I let my pitlord roll it, do I do something else that I didn't think up?
Cerebus13 12-21-05, 11:43 PM	I've seen Goodberry used as a prebuff before, so I'm wondering: how? Do I just assume the maximum number of berries, do I roll it and link it, do I let my pitlord roll it, do I do something else that I didn't think up?Let the Pitlord roll it, thats what I've always done.
Zevox 12-21-05, 11:53 PM	2) I don't think we worry about scrolls or powerstones, unless you are making like 1000 gp worth in one sitting. Only problem: it mentions in the FAQ that I have to link the activity if I use a craft feat (including scrolls and powerstones). I can't do this if theres nothing to link to. Should I PM Pitlords about this? And thanks for the answer on the Smokestick. Unofficial or not, it makes sense, and I may need it when crafting one of my strategies this week. Zevox
Snommelp 12-22-05, 12:59 AM	@ Zevox: yeah, I think a PM might be in order. I was browsing through the front of this thread, looking for a link to the SRD, and I saw something I had forgotten all about: the trash talk prior to the Grik/Aquin fight. Grik was given 9 to 1 odds, and some people called that generous. And then Grik won; not just won, but tore Aquin apart (twice, because the fight was run again thanks to a mistake). Just thought I'd bring that back to brag a bit. :D Now if only I could get him back into the swing of things... his record was great back then; now he's evening out. EDIT: On a completely unrelated note, Amaryllis, while not completely ready, is at least finished enough for the critiquing to begin.
Ravashack 12-22-05, 01:46 AM	You misunderstand me. :) 3 questions about the feather token: 1) Does it take 2 Standard Actions to use? 1 to activate the token, 1 to activate the dancing part. 2) Does the activater have to regrab the whip every 4 rounds when the dancing effect ends. 3) How does it grapple work? Hehe. 1) It starts off dancing as far as I can tell, particularly because it starts off huge. But I don't know what the action required for activation is. Your guess is as good as mine. 2) As far as I can tell, common sense would dictate no. It's a huge whip. Most people using it are size medium. They can't even wield it and it sticks around for an hour. It's saying that it wields itself like how dancing weapons wield themselves, not that it has the dancing property. 3) It would work the same way you'd use a whip to grapple. Which is a cop out answer I know. =X Edit: To clarify what I mean though (it is the middle of the night--for me--): It is not an actual Dancing weapon. The fact that it has its own BAB (+10) instead of using the user's BAB further emphasizes that it is not the actual dancing ability. Thus how the item is activated and deactivated aren't relevant--it's everything else that is.
Scribelords 12-22-05, 07:47 AM	Macbrea and our latest member MitzaVolchenko have sent me pictures and are now ready to be admired in the Gallery 1 and 3. That's 2 credits for both.
lonewolf 12-22-05, 09:37 AM	One question: If a new player here bought a wand of Summon Monster I for his Druid, can I as pitlord assume that this is a Wand of Summon Natures Ally I instead?
Ariel23 12-22-05, 09:54 AM	I have a question as well... what would be an appropriate appliaction of the hide skill. With the autospot rule of "1 rank away from cover", sneaking an moving are effectively eliminated as a tactic... I just curious. What would you do with 6 ranks, but 20 hide skill? How would you use that effectively here? Let me add something to Ayrynthyn's discussion: Wouldn't this be like a "Hide in plain sight" modifier of -20, rather than an "auto-spot?" Otherwise we are saying that a gladiator can automatically spot a copper piece laying on the ground 200' away if it doesn't have cover! (More than 0' away from cover with 0 ranks) Ugh the Orc Barbarian: 6 WIS, -2 Spot, Let's make him dazzled for -1, Distance modifier of -20 = -23 Copper Piece: 0 ranks hide, +16 size modifier [Fine] = +16 Taking 10 we have a -13 Spot versus a 26 Hide, but an auto-spot in the arena. It is possible to get a diminutive character or ally, which is +12, with or without ranks. I think I would propose either a -20 modifier to the hider, or at the very least, adding Ranks plus Size modifier when determining distance to cover. (Not that that would help our poor little copper piece.)
Pittbull 12-22-05, 09:54 AM	One question: If a new player here bought a wand of Summon Monster I for his Druid, can I as pitlord assume that this is a Wand of Summon Natures Ally I instead? I would say: yes! But ask him and inform his oponent.
TelinArtho 12-22-05, 09:58 AM	One question: If a new player here bought a wand of Summon Monster I for his Druid, can I as pitlord assume that this is a Wand of Summon Natures Ally I instead? You could assume that, but the problem is a wand of SNAI is not in the wand list - and therefore costs credits to purchase, and requires a link to use. /d
lonewolf 12-22-05, 10:18 AM	You could assume that, but the problem is a wand of SNAI is not in the wand list - and therefore costs credits to purchase, and requires a link to use. /d Your right. *sigh* Looks like another new player loses his first fight without having a chance because his tactics break down completely.
Altaris13 12-22-05, 10:21 AM	@Snom: re: Amaryllis First thing I notice is that your AC is wrong. +3 dx +1 size +5 armor does not equal a 14 AC. :D You should add Dodge as a conditional modifier to AC. You can get a Ride Tool for an extra +2. I'd personally lower your strength to 10 and up the Cha to 10. No sense in having a penatly to your most important skills. IIRC, HA also gives a synergy bonus to Wild Empathy. You can also get barding for your mount, and have lots of money to spend.
Altaris13 12-22-05, 10:22 AM	Your right. *sigh* Looks like another new player loses his first fight without having a chance because his tactics break down completely. Not necessarily. Since he is a divine caster, couldn't he just make caster level checks to use the wand? Summon Monster is on the Cleric list.
waywreth 12-22-05, 10:56 AM	Not necessarily. Since he is a divine caster, couldn't he just make caster level checks to use the wand? Summon Monster is on the Cleric list. He's a druid not a cleric - and thus can't use the wand since it's not on the druid spell list. I'd PM him though and advise him of the situation. Hopefully he can come up with alternative tactics.
NiQil 12-22-05, 11:14 AM	Not necessarily. Since he is a divine caster, couldn't he just make caster level checks to use the wand? Summon Monster is on the Cleric list. Caster level checks only work with scrolls. Wands require the spell to be on your spell list only. However, even if you could, the wand would still require credits, as SNA is not a valid wand selection.
NiQil 12-22-05, 12:04 PM	Yanno...for as great as everyone thinks that map thing is that Dracazar posted....it is getting greatly overused. There are so many maps in the Battles thread now that I can't even open that thread on my dial-up connection at home anymore. It just times out. If and when my high speed internet access at work gets taken away (which they tell us is coming, stupid corporate cost-cutters), I will have no way to open that thread any longer. Please be considerate when you use maps in your fights...putting a map in for every round is not necessary. I very seldom see fights where more than one map detailing all movement is really needed....personally I could care less if they are there at all. I know lots of people like them...but please be considerate of everyone.
DTFarstar 12-22-05, 12:14 PM	I was under the impression that if you sblocked it then it wouldn't load unless someone opened the sblock. I am so used to cable internet now, that I hadn't thought about people on dial-up connections. If this is really a problem for people and the whole sblocking it thing doesn't work then I guess I can go back to using MSPaint and Photobucket *cry*. Actually, one way or another really isn't a big deal for me, I just like seeing round by round mapping and have broadband so it's never been a problem for me.
Altaris13 12-22-05, 12:21 PM	@Niqil: point taken.
NiQil 12-22-05, 12:23 PM	I was under the impression that if you sblocked it then it wouldn't load unless someone opened the sblock. I am so used to cable internet now, that I hadn't thought about people on dial-up connections. If this is really a problem for people and the whole sblocking it thing doesn't work then I guess I can go back to using MSPaint and Photobucket *cry*. Actually, one way or another really isn't a big deal for me, I just like seeing round by round mapping and have broadband so it's never been a problem for me. I honestly don't know if that works or not. But with so many all ready in there that don't have spoiler blocks, there is no way for me to really tell. Only way would be for everyone to go back through and sblock all of the maps already in there.
Snommelp 12-22-05, 01:10 PM	First thing I notice is that your AC is wrong. +3 dx +1 size +5 armor does not equal a 14 AC. :DYeah... oops. You should add Dodge as a conditional modifier to AC.Can do. You can get a Ride Tool for an extra +2.That would be the MW Bit and Bridle, yes? I'd personally lower your strength to 10 and up the Cha to 10. No sense in having a penatly to your most important skills.+5 Handle Animal is enough to handle my animal companion regardless of the roll. I'm not planning on having any other allies. Do you still suggest the change? IIRC, HA also gives a synergy bonus to Wild Empathy.I'll look it up. If it does, I'll add it. You can also get barding for your mount, and have lots of money to spend.It's an idea, but he's also getting close to his first weight limit... Thanks for all of the suggestions, Altaris! My first druid, you know.
Altaris13 12-22-05, 01:31 PM	Yeah... oops. Can do. That would be the MW Bit and Bridle, yes? +5 Handle Animal is enough to handle my animal companion regardless of the roll. I'm not planning on having any other allies. Do you still suggest the change? I'll look it up. If it does, I'll add it. It's an idea, but he's also getting close to his first weight limit... Thanks for all of the suggestions, Altaris! My first druid, you know. You're welcome. Those were just some things that popped into my head as I looked her over. I've never actually played a Druid either, but have been studying them heavily on the CO board the last sever or eight weeks.
Cerebus13 12-22-05, 01:40 PM	Originally Posted by Altaris13 You can get a Ride Tool for an extra +2. That would be the MW Bit and Bridle, yes?Actually this was done away with when some of the skills were restructured for money making. No more free +2 to Ride. However you can still use a Military Saddle to reduce the odds of falling off your mount.
MitzaVolchenko 12-22-05, 02:31 PM	Wow! I haven't seen this kind of number crunching and detail oriented picking since we rewrote the way spells worked for NWN. *hides feeling completely outgeeked for a change*
Snommelp 12-22-05, 04:10 PM	Don't worry, we're not all like that. Most of us are actually quite normal. :rofl: Man, I almost got through that with a straight face! Anyway, Amaryllis is "finished" and ready, but I'd appreciate any additional comments or suggestions to make her better.
NiQil 12-22-05, 04:16 PM	Don't worry, we're not all like that. Most of us are actually quite normal. :rofl: Man, I almost got through that with a straight face! Anyway, Amaryllis is "finished" and ready, but I'd appreciate any additional comments or suggestions to make her better. Since ranged attacks seem to be where most of your attacks come from, aside from spells, rather than taking Dodge as a feat, you may want to look at Mounted Archery to take away some of the penalties for using the sling mounted.
Snommelp 12-22-05, 04:22 PM	Since ranged attacks seem to be where most of your attacks come from, aside from spells, rather than taking Dodge as a feat, you may want to look at Mounted Archery to take away some of the penalties for using the sling mounted. That's a really good idea... it's done.
Cerebus13 12-22-05, 05:57 PM	2 more wierd questions: 1) How does the Psionic feat Metamorphic Transfer work exactly? I'll quote it here:Metamorphic Transfer [Psionic] You can gain a supernatural ability of a metamorphed form. Prerequisite Wis 13, manifester level 5th. Benefit Each time you change your form, such as through the metamorphosis power, you gain one of the new form’s supernatural abilities, if it has any. You gain only three uses of the metamorphic ability per day, even if the creature into which you metamorph has a higher limit on uses (you are still subject to other restrictions on the use of the ability.) The save DC to resist a supernatural ability gained through Metamorphic Transfer (if it is an attack) is 10 + your Cha modifier + ½ your Hit Dice. No matter how many times you manifest the metamorphosis power on a given day, you can gain only a total of three supernatural ability transfers per day. Normal You cannot use the supernatural abilities of creatures whose form you assume. Special You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time, you can gain one additional supernatural ability.The wording within is poor, so I do not know if when they refer to metamorphic ability they are talking about the Feat itself or the Supernatural Ability you borrowed from the form you changed into. If they are refering to the Supernatural Ability how would you handle constant effect powers such as SU: Flight or others that have no limit on their amount of uses? 2) Can you use Metamorphic Transfer if you Polymorph or change form in some other method that is not the psionic version (Metamorph or whatever it is called)? 3) With Psionics/Magic transparency, can we use Rods of Metamagic on Psionic Powers?
MindWandererB 12-22-05, 06:30 PM	2 more wierd questions: 1) How does the Psionic feat Metamorphic Transfer work exactly? I'll quote it here:The wording within is poor, so I do not know if when they refer to metamorphic ability they are talking about the Feat itself or the Supernatural Ability you borrowed from the form you changed into. If they are refering to the Supernatural Ability how would you handle constant effect powers such as SU: Flight or others that have no limit on their amount of uses? 2) Can you use Metamorphic Transfer if you Polymorph or change form in some other method that is not the psionic version (Metamorph or whatever it is called)? 3) With Psionics/Magic transparency, can we use Rods of Metamagic on Psionic Powers? Questions 2 and 3 I can answer. I've often wondered about question 1 myself. I gather they're referring to the ability, not the feat, but I have no idea a) how continuous effects work, and b) what happens if you take on two different shapes with the same ability on the same day. As for the others: 2) It specifies "each time you change your form, as if through the metamorphosis power." So other methods work, including Polymorph, Alter Self, or alternate form abilities. 3) No. They're still not 100% transparent, and metamagic feats don't work on psionics and vice-versa. Consequently metamagic rods, since they add metamagic and not metapsionics, don't work on psionics.
MindWandererB 12-22-05, 06:43 PM	Just read Tan vs. Hennan, raised another question, on using Prestidigitation to draw items. I'm not sure at all that this is a valid use of the spell. The description says it can "slowly" lift 1 pound of material; translating this to "without concentration or attention (i.e. as a free action), lifts a stored item of my choice from whatever closed receptacle it's in, bringing it almost instantly directly into my hand" seems to be taking quite a leap. I can't find anything in the FAQ or Rules of the Game to merit this interpretation and I sure as heck wouldn't allow it in my game. That's a powerful ability for a 0-level spell. I'm really interested to see where this idea came from.
Huan 12-22-05, 07:32 PM	I would like to publically announce my current availability as Questlord. I have no preference for ECL, so even if you want to take your character(s) on a frozen quest I'm up for it. Any takers? In all fairness, Myrridin, Iced, and TelinArtho are also available as QLs.
Dracazar 12-22-05, 07:49 PM	Do you think that a cleric inside Sanctuary can cast Spiritual Weapon without breaking the Sanctuary?
Cerebus13 12-22-05, 08:01 PM	Just read Tan vs. Hennan, raised another question, on using Prestidigitation to draw items. I'm not sure at all that this is a valid use of the spell. The description says it can "slowly" lift 1 pound of material; translating this to "without concentration or attention (i.e. as a free action), lifts a stored item of my choice from whatever closed receptacle it's in, bringing it almost instantly directly into my hand" seems to be taking quite a leap. I can't find anything in the FAQ or Rules of the Game to merit this interpretation and I sure as heck wouldn't allow it in my game. That's a powerful ability for a 0-level spell. I'm really interested to see where this idea came from.Opinions aside there is no concrete evidence within the SRD that says you cannot use the power this way. However I agree that the use as a Free Action is beyond the scope of the spell, it should cost at least a Move Action to manipulate 1 pound of material.
Ravashack 12-22-05, 08:47 PM	2 more wierd questions: 1) How does the Psionic feat Metamorphic Transfer work exactly? I'll quote it here:The wording within is poor, so I do not know if when they refer to metamorphic ability they are talking about the Feat itself or the Supernatural Ability you borrowed from the form you changed into. If they are refering to the Supernatural Ability how would you handle constant effect powers such as SU: Flight or others that have no limit on their amount of uses? 2) Can you use Metamorphic Transfer if you Polymorph or change form in some other method that is not the psionic version (Metamorph or whatever it is called)? 3) With Psionics/Magic transparency, can we use Rods of Metamagic on Psionic Powers? 1) When you Metamorphosis into a form with with SU abilities, you can pick ONE of those abilities and use it up to 3/day or whatever the cap is on it, whichever is lower (since you still have to abide by restrictions on the ability). If you want to access more abilities you need to pick this feat multiple times. Logically you can't use two feats to gain more uses of the same ability though. Also, if something's constant like Flight (which I really don't see being a su ability in the first place), what would make the most sense is that you might be able to reactivate it three times if it gets removed somehow, but I dunno about that. 2) Yes. The feat as written does not limit it to Metamorphosis. It specifically says "Each time you change your form, such as through the metamorphosis power,..." not "Each time you use the metamorphosis power..." It means you can Wild Shape and get benefits from this feat if the form you pick has SU abilities. 3) Transparency has NOTHING to do with using items with psionics/magic. Transparency is how the spells and powers themselves interact with each other, NOT how items feats interact with them. A spell is still a spell and a power is still a power.
Altaris13 12-22-05, 08:59 PM	1) When you Metamorphosis into a form with with SU abilities, you can pick ONE of those abilities and use it up to 3/day or whatever the cap is on it, whichever is lower (since you still have to abide by restrictions on the ability). If you want to access more abilities you need to pick this feat multiple times. Logically you can't use two feats to gain more uses of the same ability though. Also, if something's constant like Flight (which I really don't see being a su ability in the first place), what would make the most sense is that you might be able to reactivate it three times if it gets removed somehow, but I dunno about that. 2) Yes. The feat as written does not limit it to Metamorphosis. It specifically says "Each time you change your form, such as through the metamorphosis power,..." not "Each time you use the metamorphosis power..." It means you can Wild Shape and get benefits from this feat if the form you pick has SU abilities. 3) Transparency has NOTHING to do with using items with psionics/magic. Transparency is how the spells and powers themselves interact with each other, NOT how items feats interact with them. A spell is still a spell and a power is still a power. In a point of contrast, it is accepted among the CO Board gurus (to my knowledge) that Metamorphic Transfer only works with psionic powers. I have never seen any non-psionic builds on the CO that make use of that feat.
MindWandererB 12-22-05, 09:05 PM	In a point of contrast, it is accepted among the CO Board gurus (to my knowledge) that Metamorphic Transfer only works with psionic powers. I have never seen any non-psionic builds on the CO that make use of that feat. Ah, yes, but on the CO boards, they are obligated to use common sense. After all, what use is an optimized build if your DM takes one look at it and says, "heck no!" We at the CoCo are free of all such burdens of sense and are obligated to play everything exactly as written. And the feat says nothing about where you get the shape-changing ability from. Of course, with a minimum manifester level of 5th, it's prohibitive to use another method.
Altaris13 12-22-05, 09:11 PM	Ah, yes, but on the CO boards, they are obligated to use common sense. After all, what use is an optimized build if your DM takes one look at it and says, "heck no!" We at the CoCo are free of all such burdens of sense and are obligated to play everything exactly as written. And the feat says nothing about where you get the shape-changing ability from. Of course, with a minimum manifester level of 5th, it's prohibitive to use another method. :D
bluemage55 12-22-05, 09:13 PM	Quick question: if you attempt to use a scroll that is too high a caster level and you fail, is the scroll still expended, or is possible backlash/miscast the only penalty?
Book5 12-22-05, 09:24 PM	Opinions aside there is no concrete evidence within the SRD that says you cannot use the power this way. However I agree that the use as a Free Action is beyond the scope of the spell, it should cost at least a Move Action to manipulate 1 pound of material. I am using it with the idea that yes it does take a moment for items to move around ... its just doesnt take any of my attention.. changing it from a free action to a move action compleatly negates the combat benifit. And its not like the items were talking about are doing cartwheels in the air. Were talking about a scroll pulling itself out of your pack and floating in easier reach of your hand - there by negating the need to use a move action to pull out a scroll. This allows arcanists to weild small expendables (such as scrolls) similarly to the way that bab allows you to handle weapons. Let me reiterate - saying that it takes a move-e action to use the presto levitate object ability.. compleatly negates the benifit of the TK part of the spell.. save for character's with out limbs... Its a move equivalent action to manipulate objects with your hands! Presto doesnt have any sort of crazy range or anything. 5 feet - medium/small reach. The reason it makes drawing scrolls and loading ammo a free action is not because it happens "fast" its because it happens "hands free." Leaving you the option to take normal movement and etc. For example.. You have a weapon in hand. Even a fighter has to take a move-e action to sheath that thing. Well if its a dagger (.5lb) and you have presto running... "free action drop" "free action catch" and then "not an action" it merrily moves to your holster without interfering with your attack action. Does that clarify?
Ravashack 12-22-05, 09:25 PM	Ah, yes, but on the CO boards, they are obligated to use common sense. After all, what use is an optimized build if your DM takes one look at it and says, "heck no!" We at the CoCo are free of all such burdens of sense and are obligated to play everything exactly as written. And the feat says nothing about where you get the shape-changing ability from. Of course, with a minimum manifester level of 5th, it's prohibitive to use another method. ^_^ Yep. If you want to get 5 levels in a psionic class to get that for a non-psionic method, by all means, knock yourself out and deny yourself Shapechange...
Book5 12-22-05, 09:31 PM	Just read Tan vs. Hennan, raised another question, on using Prestidigitation to draw items. I'm really interested to see where this idea came from. It all started along time ago.. when I was playing 2nd ed. There was this spell called "Cantrip" and with cantrip (a 1st level spell that lasted an hour) you could basically do use every spell listed on the cantrips (cept the undead zapper) pretty much at will for the an hour. Using this spell (which had a 5lb (see mage hand) limit instead of 1, could deal 1 hp of any elemental type as a ray, change the color on stuff, clean and soil things, etc) a wizard could be the fritzy poping coins out of nowhere, starting his pipe with his finger, and generally ready equipement and stuff like they were yoda. When I got to third ed I thought.. drat, cant cantrip most weapons now.. 1lb limit. "mages should use smalll stuff and ranged attacks anyway" As far as using TK as a free action instead of forcing a move-e "concentration" round.. remember this - it doesnt declare that it requires an action.. and the only other refrence (mage hand is not a valid example as, if you read the somatic component you will find it to be specific to the extreem) is the actual TK spell. Which basically does all this and more times ten at distance .... as a free action. "no hands ma!"
MindWandererB 12-22-05, 09:39 PM	As far as using TK as a free action instead of forcing a move-e "concentration" round.. remember this - it doesnt declare that it requires an action.. and the only other refrence is the actual TK spell. Which basically does all this and more times ten at distance .... as a free action. "no hands ma!" Telekinesis: Duration: Concentration (up to 1 round/ level) or instantaneous (for Violent Thrust). So, no free action. And Mage Hand requires concentration as well. So I still don't get how Prestidigitation can be used for free-action TKing.
Book5 12-22-05, 09:56 PM	Telekinesis: Duration: Concentration (up to 1 round/ level) or instantaneous (for Violent Thrust). So, no free action. And Mage Hand requires concentration as well. So I still don't get how Prestidigitation can be used for free-action TKing. As I mentioned mage hand is wonky, you have to point at things btw. Ok, so the TK duration is concentration. The presto duration is not concentration. In fact no action time is designated at all within the presto spell. SO, not an action. To say otherwise is putting words in the SRD that arnt there. No action requirment is listed so without something to override that.. that leaves leaves it a free action. I think its RAI, you apparently dissagree. The SRD doesnt seem to have anything else to say about it. Just to clarify.. why are you suggesting we add an action requirement to a spell that has none? Please review Tan's record if you think the effect is all that game breaking.
MindWandererB 12-22-05, 10:12 PM	Just to clarify.. why are you suggesting we add an action requirement to a spell that has none? Please review Tan's record if you think the effect is all that game breaking. Just because one bard isn't getting a whole lot of mileage out of it doesn't mean it isn't broken. He's a bard, for crying out loud; it would take a whole lot of brokenness to even put him on par with everyone else. Examples of things you can do with it that ordinarily aren't possible: Firing a sling one-handed. Lets you carry a shield, wand, scroll, etc. and still attack with the sling. Extreme example: Psionic Shot, Psionic Meditation. Free sling reload, move-action refocus, fire. Basically like the Rapid Reload feat, but for a sling and free. Carrying a free light item. Imagine if he was using it to keep a Cure wand around at all times. Freeing up the move action is a major boon, allowing you to switch between healing and offense at will. Watch for my druid's fight this week, and imagine how helpful this option would bee. Contingency scrolls. The fact that you have to have one hand free and one hand holding the scroll is a limiting factor. Floating them around is a substantial advantage. You can keep a scroll floating around you for whenever you need it like this. And if drawing the scroll is a free action, you can even combine it with a ready action. Combos. How many folks would like to be able to carry a weapon and cast True Strike from a scroll at the same time? Especially with ranged attackers. I could probably come up with more, but you get the idea.
Guildmaster (EYE) 12-22-05, 10:16 PM	Please review Tan's record if you think the effect is all that game breaking. :gah: although i shouldnt talk, tan is the one victory in my 1 and 4 start, and had it not been for a lucky crit in round 1 we may not be having this converation... :rolleyes: as i side note, i allowed a player to do this in my table top game, when he came armed with the same argument. His point, however, was augmented with a handy haversack "to pick the correct item". Otherwise i would have let him try it once, then out of control mops with buckets would have taken over... :P He uses it in conjunction with unseen servant a lot too... [edit... i hate when i auto log in with the wrong account :\]
Book5 12-22-05, 10:23 PM	Just because one bard isn't getting a whole lot of mileage out of it doesn't mean it isn't broken. He's a bard, for crying out loud; it would take a whole lot of brokenness to even put him on par with everyone else. Examples of things you can do with it that ordinarily aren't possible: Firing a sling one-handed. Lets you carry a shield, wand, scroll, etc. and still attack with the sling. Extreme example: Psionic Shot, Psionic Meditation. Free sling reload, move-action refocus, fire. Basically like the Rapid Reload feat, but for a sling and free. Carrying a free light item. Imagine if he was using it to keep a Cure wand around at all times. Freeing up the move action is a major boon, allowing you to switch between healing and offense at will. Watch for my druid's fight this week, and imagine how helpful this option would bee. Contingency scrolls. The fact that you have to have one hand free and one hand holding the scroll is a limiting factor. Floating them around is a substantial advantage. You can keep a scroll floating around you for whenever you need it like this. And if drawing the scroll is a free action, you can even combine it with a ready action. Combos. How many folks would like to be able to carry a weapon and cast True Strike from a scroll at the same time? Especially with ranged attackers. I could probably come up with more, but you get the idea. Yep yep yep, I dont see any of this as game breaking, I see it as intelligent application of the possibilities provided. For one, I dont see how you can argue with the "float a scroll in front of your face" so you can read it and hold a weapon at the same time. How can you say that the spell doesnt do that? What else does it do? What is the action required to "create" something with presto? Full round? Doesnt say, That means free. I understand your metagame concerns.. but I fail to see what in the SRD should make using presto a move action. If it is then the spell has no combat application whatsoever... unless you are paralyzed or have no hands. That concerns me. This is a combat sim. Presto aint there for flavor.. its there for fighting. Further, "it unbalancing" isnt grounds to negate the usage of the spell anyway. Please provide an refrence to the rules that contradicts the usage. I am so certain that there isnt one I will gamble you a credit! Can I do that? Gamble credits.. eh,
NiQil 12-22-05, 10:50 PM	Yep yep yep, I dont see any of this as game breaking, I see it as intelligent application of the possibilities provided. For one, I dont see how you can argue with the "float a scroll in front of your face" so you can read it and hold a weapon at the same time. How can you say that the spell doesnt do that? What else does it do? What is the action required to "create" something with presto? Full round? Doesnt say, That means free. I understand your metagame concerns.. but I fail to see what in the SRD should make using presto a move action. If it is then the spell has no combat application whatsoever... unless you are paralyzed or have no hands. That concerns me. This is a combat sim. Presto aint there for flavor.. its there for fighting. Further, "it unbalancing" isnt grounds to negate the usage of the spell anyway. Please provide an refrence to the rules that contradicts the usage. I am so certain that there isnt one I will gamble you a credit! Can I do that? Gamble credits.. eh, Actually, directing or redirecting an active spell is a move action, as per table 8-2 on pg 141 of the PHB under Move Actions. So getting the prestidigitation to do something is still a move action. Also, catching an item, per the FAQ page 33, is a move action, so your example of dropping a weapon and having your spell catch it doesn't work either.
Huan 12-22-05, 10:59 PM	Quick question: if you attempt to use a scroll that is too high a caster level and you fail, is the scroll still expended, or is possible backlash/miscast the only penalty? Apparently, only the possible backlash/miscast is the penalty. Activate the Spell: Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll. Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus. (The creator of the scroll provided these when scribing the scroll.) Note that some spells are effective only when cast on an item or items. In such a case, the scroll user must provide the item when activating the spell. Activating a scroll spell is subject to disruption just as casting a normally prepared spell would be. Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance. To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements. • The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.) • The user must have the spell on his or her class list. • The user must have the requisite ability score. If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps, below). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers. Remember, in COCO you cannnot have a scroll (or any expendable) whose CL is higher than your ECL+2 (anything higher must be purchased in the Blackmarket). Do you think that a cleric inside Sanctuary can cast Spiritual Weapon without breaking the Sanctuary? I believe it has been ruled in previous fights that Spiritual Weapon counts as an offensive attack that breaks both Sanctuary and Invisibility. (Feel free to correct me if I am mistaken)
Book5 12-22-05, 11:03 PM	Actually, directing or redirecting an active spell is a move action, as per table 8-2 on pg 141 of the PHB under Move Actions. So getting the prestidigitation to do something is still a move action. Also, catching an item, per the FAQ page 33, is a move action, so your example of dropping a weapon and having your spell catch it doesn't work either. First off, its a move action with your hand. That doesnt mean its a move action with presto. Secondly, rather than try and make this too brief I will return in the morning. for now. @NiQil "You have something there" target... though. Think about it.. its move action.. to "redirect" the spell... what qualifies a redirect? New object? Probably. but..
MindWandererB 12-23-05, 12:07 AM	For one, I dont see how you can argue with the "float a scroll in front of your face" so you can read it and hold a weapon at the same time. I can't. However, I can say that "slowly lifts" could, and should, take more time than a free action. From waist-level to eye-level in <1 second isn't "slowly" in my book. How can you say that the spell doesnt do that? What else does it do? What is the action required to "create" something with presto? Full round? Doesnt say, That means free.... Please provide an refrence to the rules that contradicts the usage. By long-standing tradition and logic, "it doesn't say you can't" doesn't mean you can. Extreme example: it says you can warm objects. Does that mean you can bring them up to 10,000 degrees? It doesn't say you can't. And maybe you could, 1 degree at a time. Even as a free action every round. But not all at once. I understand your metagame concerns.. but I fail to see what in the SRD should make using presto a move action. Let me put it this way: I'm not saying necessarily that it makes a move action (although I find the "redirect" argument compelling). But I am saying that it takes longer than a move action to happen. It's like riding a mount: you can still take a full round's worth of actions while mounted, but you can still only move so far in a round. So bringing a scroll to eye level might be a free action, but it could take several rounds of travel to get there. What's more, a person in a hustle doesn't move "slowly," so if they move at all, they probably leave the item behind. Presto aint there for flavor.. its there for fighting. I disagree. Many spells in the Core aren't useful in a fight. It isn't true that every spell necessarily has to have a combat application. Further, "it unbalancing" isnt grounds to negate the usage of the spell anyway. True. The RAW holds priority in all cases. But in cases where the rules aren't explicit and a judgment call has to be made, balance is a factor that should be considered.
Snommelp 12-23-05, 12:38 AM	Just because one bard isn't getting a whole lot of mileage out of it doesn't mean it isn't broken. He's a bard, for crying out loud; it would take a whole lot of brokenness to even put him on par with everyone else.Hey now, no need to start with the bard bashing. Hennan's been doing fairly well so far; 3 wins out of five fights, and one of the two losses was actually second place in a Free-For-All. Now that that's been said, please, continue with the debate.
Snommelp 12-23-05, 12:58 AM	Speaking of bards and Hennan, he can use a wand of Summon Monster I, right? It's on his spell list and he's a high enough caster level to cast it; are there any other requirements that would need to be met?
MindWandererB 12-23-05, 01:17 AM	Speaking of bards and Hennan, he can use a wand of Summon Monster I, right? It's on his spell list and he's a high enough caster level to cast it; are there any other requirements that would need to be met? Nope, no other requirements. In fact, to use a wand, you don't even have to be high enough level to cast it. The only restriction is the CoCo ECL+2 rule. Of course, a default SM I wand has a duration of 1 round, making it of limited use. And hey, I'm all pro-bard in general. But let's face it, they're not optimized for 1-on-1 combat. They're probably the worst at it of all classes, although the conditions of the arena make rogues nearly as bad.
Snommelp 12-23-05, 01:21 AM	One round?! Forget that! I'll just go buy him some scrolls of something or another... or maybe save the money for an armor upgrade...
Vathelokai 12-23-05, 01:22 AM	Just read Tan vs. Hennan, raised another question, on using Prestidigitation to draw items. I'm not sure at all that this is a valid use of the spell. The description says it can "slowly" lift 1 pound of material; translating this to "without concentration or attention (i.e. as a free action), lifts a stored item of my choice from whatever closed receptacle it's in, bringing it almost instantly directly into my hand" seems to be taking quite a leap. I can't find anything in the FAQ or Rules of the Game to merit this interpretation and I sure as heck wouldn't allow it in my game. That's a powerful ability for a 0-level spell. I'm really interested to see where this idea came from. Actually, this idea came from me. I started putting 3-4 scrolls on the ground in my starting place, and casting presti. to make them float around me to avoid holding them (and taking up valuble hand space). The spell description dosn't have concentration listed in the durration (see mage hand), so it seemed reasonable enough. I brought this up in previous taverns several times, and asked elders for input. I recieved no reprimand, so I assumed it was legal, and have been using it since. Perhaps this could end up in the community vote thread? Although it seems like quite the benefit to bypass those move actions, you are setting yourself up for a bad time. Having all of your stuff floating around leaves you wide open to disarms and sunders. Personally, it dosn't seem like that big of a deal. Using it to replace quickdraw is another matter though. I can see drawing sling stones as a "free" action, but not loading the sling. I havn't read the fight though.
bluemage55 12-23-05, 04:17 AM	If anyone wants to do a quest/miniquest I'll take any character/party at any ECL.
Caterane 12-23-05, 04:23 AM	Prestidigitation cannot be used to draw items. The spell is there to entertain mostly, and perhaps there might come up one or the other situation when it is really useful but it never replaces feats, nor does it damage. Due to the freestyle nature of this spell, it requires DM (here: pitlord) judgement and this should always take balance and the effects into consideration. Scrolls/Stones at CL+2: I have thought about it for some time and would like to hear your opinion first. As it is now, you can freely buy Scrolls/Powerstones at up to your ECL+2 which is an exception compared to the other expendables (all capped to your level). Now I am thinking about lowering that cap for scrolls and powerstones too. Three reasons come to my mind: consistency (with the other items), balance (because CL+2 is nothing to scoff at), and the expendable-heavy arena (should be more focused on the build's abilities). What do you think?
Stormwind 12-23-05, 04:52 AM	Scrolls/Stones at CL+2: I have thought about it for some time and would like to hear your opinion first. As it is now, you can freely buy Scrolls/Powerstones at up to your ECL+2 which is an exception compared to the other expendables (all capped to your level). Now I am thinking about lowering that cap for scrolls and powerstones too. Three reasons come to my mind: consistency (with the other items), balance (because CL+2 is nothing to scoff at), and the expendable-heavy arena (should be more focused on the build's abilities). What do you think? I would agree with this 100%. ECL+2 is huge as can be see when comparing the relative power of spells and powers one spell level or power level higher. As an example, this gives a level 3 character access to third level spells or powers instead of just second. Naturally a level 3 wiz with scrolls of dispel magic, summon monster III, and fireball is much more powerful in the arena than most other level 3 characters. I think the cap should be lowered to ECL.
bluemage55 12-23-05, 05:05 AM	To address Caterane's three points: Consitency: If consistency is important it should certainly be changed to match the others. Then again, if a CL limit is placed on expendables, wouldn't it also be logical that characters should be ECL 5 before being allowed to purchase magical weapons and armor (which require a 5th level caster at the least to craft)? Balance: I think it's important to note that any ECL 3 character bringing and using a single 3rd level scroll is going to end up losing money if he fails to win the fight, since the minimal cost would for one would be 375gp and they will probably be getting very close to 300gp if they lose. And if it's changed to ECL only, they need only expend a single credit to purchase the item anyway if they really wanted it. Expendable-heavy arena: Powerstones/scrolls at ECL+1 and ECL+2 aren't too common, at least not at ECL 3, which is admittedly the only thing I've played so far since I'm pretty new.
MindWandererB 12-23-05, 05:08 AM	Prestidigitation cannot be used to draw items. The spell is there to entertain mostly, and perhaps there might come up one or the other situation when it is really useful but it never replaces feats, nor does it damage. Due to the freestyle nature of this spell, it requires DM (here: pitlord) judgement and this should always take balance and the effects into consideration. Thanks for the opinion! I'd much rather get a hard-and-fast ruling on something like this from an elder (especially you) than endlessly debate. Scrolls/Stones at CL+2: I have thought about it for some time and would like to hear your opinion first. As it is now, you can freely buy Scrolls/Powerstones at up to your ECL+2 which is an exception compared to the other expendables (all capped to your level). Now I am thinking about lowering that cap for scrolls and powerstones too. Three reasons come to my mind: consistency (with the other items), balance (because CL+2 is nothing to scoff at), and the expendable-heavy arena (should be more focused on the build's abilities). I'm not sure what you're proposing here--making it more or less restrictive? "Consistency" would make it less restrictive, since there's currently no limit on potions, wands, staves, and other items (unless there's some rule I don't know about--a careful reread of the "rules" thread suggests there is no limit). But as for the "expendable-heavy arena," it sounds like you want to make it more restrictive. I find it odd that scrolls and powerstones are the items under debate. These items have a built-in limitation of having to make a caster level check. I mean, if an ECL 3 character someone wants to plunk down 375 bucks (more than the reward for a loss, and more than 1/3 of a win) for an item that has a 10% chance of burning up to no effect, then why not? If potions and wands aren't restricted, I see no reason why scrolls should be. If you really want to be abusive, take a level of Cleric with the Magic domain and use wands, or else just use potions and tattoos. At high levels this might be more of an issue, but then you're spending substantial amounts of cash on items that could fail. I personally think that the cost of high-level expendables is prohibitive enough--an ECL 3 character who uses just one 3rd-level scroll per fight will barely make a profit over the course of the level unless they have an exemplary success record, and that's without any other expendables. It gets a little better at high levels, but if you make a habit of buying scrolls at above your caster level, you use up the bulk of your earnings on them and have a 10% failure rate besides (less if you get a bonus to caster level for some reason, but more if you have LA). If anything, wands and potions (and tattoos--God, all those tattoos) need more of a cap. Staves are probably okay due to their horrible cost-ineffectiveness. Miscellaneous items could be a problem, but I don't have enough experience to judge that properly. And as for "focusing on the build's abilities," I think scrolls capture that quite well without a cap. Caster level is an investment, and is a part of a character build. Being able to use scrolls, which are more cost-effective and versatile than potions or even tattoos, is a huge advantage. Imposing a lower limit on scrolls will take away a lot of that advantage (why design a character that can use a scroll of Invisibility when someone else can just use a potion?) If you want to downplay the use of expendables, put some other kind of cap on them, or else you're taking away a strength of characters with a caster level. Something like no more than (ECL*333.33) gp worth of expendables. A lot boils down to what kind of environment we, as a community, want. If we want to be able to burn off a mess of expendables to supplement our build's strengths and weaknesses, then that's fine, although you're right, it does downplay the build compared to the choice of gear. If we want something more "stable" that approximates "normal" D&D a bit better, then some kind of arbitrary cap might be nice--I was thinking of a druid/monk build for quite a while until I discovered Oil of Shillelagh, which makes the combo I was thinking of moot. Of course, expendables can be used in two ways: oodless of stuff with which to buff out the ears, or contingencies for various situations. The first does tend to be more expensive, which acts as a penalty for using that strategy. It also takes more time, and it's not uncommon for someone to get attacked before they're done buffing. So, I personally don't think a limit is necessary at all. The money and level checks balance it out. Capping scrolls will just give casters an artificial disadvantage. But a global cap of some sort on expendables might be a good idea.
lonewolf 12-23-05, 05:11 AM	Hmm, from another perspective, I think it's important to note that any ECL 3 character bringing and using a single 3rd level scroll is going to end up losing money if he fails to win the fight, since the minimal cost would for one would be 375gp and they will probably be getting very close to 300gp if they lose. But I´ve seen a lvl3 Druid dominate a ECL3 All vs All with his scroll of Call lightning, which he used to kill all 3 of his enemies. And thats far more firepower than any ECL3 character should have with one scroll.
bluemage55 12-23-05, 05:16 AM	But I´ve seen a lvl3 Druid dominate a ECL3 All vs All with his scroll of Call lightning, which he used to kill all 3 of his enemies. And thats far more firepower than any ECL3 character should have with one scroll. So then that much firepower should have a tax of one credit instead?
Caterane 12-23-05, 05:37 AM	We could increase the credit cost to 1° per CL above your ECL. That'd make it 2° for a Call Lightning@ECL3. @MindWanderer: A 10% chance of burning the item opposed to a much higher chance of winning the fight because of the scroll is a risk worth taking. Your proposed general cap on expandables a character may possess would be a very good solution but it is hard to track. And would you forbid a wizard to scribe a lot of scrolls with his feat just because he hits the cap? I'd like to have the arena be closer to a real campaign where character concepts cannot rely on expendables (especially if they cannot craft them on their own).
lonewolf 12-23-05, 05:48 AM	Im not sure if I like this idea. slowly but surely players who dont have the time to gain credits have severe limitations on their characters and thats especially hard for new players if their characters are killed by scrolls that they couldnt have bought themselves. I think there are enough ways to spend credits already and Im against increasing the number of things you can only do with credits.
Caterane 12-23-05, 06:00 AM	Lonewolf, currently you can buy scrolls of up to CL = your ECL+2. For every credit, you can buy a scroll of TWO levels higher. I want to make it more restrictive by saying one credit for one CL higher, and the cap is increased to CL = your ECL+0. Example: Currently: ECL 3 buys CL 7 scroll for 1° Proposal: ECL 3 buys CL 7 scroll for 4°
Wind 12-23-05, 06:48 AM	Just a question: when i was creating my char, i missed that i have to select a divination spell each level, so i actually selected only true strike on 1st level. Now, i heavily rely on the spell i selected and i can't select a divination spell each level and then (buy scroll-learn spell) the other as i would spend more than 2000gp. So may i change the spell book, but still take the 375gp i earned for the fight in witch i surrendered?
Ravashack 12-23-05, 07:17 AM	Scrolls/Stones at CL+2: I have thought about it for some time and would like to hear your opinion first. As it is now, you can freely buy Scrolls/Powerstones at up to your ECL+2 which is an exception compared to the other expendables (all capped to your level). Now I am thinking about lowering that cap for scrolls and powerstones too. Three reasons come to my mind: consistency (with the other items), balance (because CL+2 is nothing to scoff at), and the expendable-heavy arena (should be more focused on the build's abilities). What do you think? Personally, I think that instead, in addition to the ECL+2 rule, All expendables (Scrolls, Potions, Powerstones, Dorjes, and so on) shouldn't be allowed to be higher than the base caster level at all unless the character getting it has the feat in question for creating that item. If someone wants to have a strategy of higher caster level expendables, that's fine, but there should be a bigger cost of some sort attached to wanting to do that, IMO, instead of how it is now. Need to give a bigger reason to get Scribe Scroll and such besides using XP to cover half the gold cost IMO.
NightBreeze 12-23-05, 07:28 AM	Yes, but wizards get scribe scroll for free. Actually i was thinking that a caster can do little without his scrolls/powerstones, but many fight aren't balanced beacuse a single spell can end everything.
Cerebus13 12-23-05, 07:33 AM	Scrolls/Stones at CL+2: I have thought about it for some time and would like to hear your opinion first. As it is now, you can freely buy Scrolls/Powerstones at up to your ECL+2 which is an exception compared to the other expendables (all capped to your level). Now I am thinking about lowering that cap for scrolls and powerstones too. Three reasons come to my mind: consistency (with the other items), balance (because CL+2 is nothing to scoff at), and the expendable-heavy arena (should be more focused on the build's abilities). What do you think?Leave it as it is right now. All lowering the cap will do is make those players with lots of credits even more viable, and those with little or no credits even more worse off. Some people have such a rediculous amount of credits at their disposal that this change will not affect their expendable usage at all....and I don't think that is fair to the new player.
Altaris13 12-23-05, 08:09 AM	Leave it as it is right now. All lowering the cap will do is make those players with lots of credits even more viable, and those with little or no credits even more worse off. Some people have such a rediculous amount of credits at their disposal that this change will not affect their expendable usage at all....and I don't think that is fair to the new player. Cerebrus has really good points here. I agree very much so that we should not mess with the stone/scroll ECL credit cost.
NiQil 12-23-05, 08:41 AM	@ Cat I have to agree with most every point you made.....but I think we should go a step further. Not only do I think expendables should be capped at your ECL, but I also think we should eliminate custom expendables for credit costs. As has been pointed out, credit spending already dominates this arena in many ways. Expendable usage also already dominates this arena in many ways. If you want a level playing field between melee and caster types, just dropping the cap to your ECL isn't enough. Especially if your goal is to give the arena a real game feel....how often in a real game have you been able to have a cleric or druid go out and purchase a wand of entangle? Or have a fighter/wizard go out and purchase a wand of true strike? Expendables already dominate this arena, and, with few exceptions, those that don't blow a lot of money in expendables usually end up on the losing end of the stick. I wholeheartedly support the idea to drop the cap to ECL and make it the same for everything, and, as I said, would further recommend removing the ability to make custom expendables for credits. I wouldn't even mind the removal of making custom items for credits, period. By promoting equipment purchasing with credits, the haves distance themselves from the have-nots faster and faster.
Macbrea 12-23-05, 08:43 AM	Are we allowed free buy scrolls of ECL or lower? Meaning 0o for something like a Scroll of Align Weapon (good) [CL 3] purchased by a 3rd level cleric? It isn't on the list of available scrolls, but could be made easily.
NightBreeze 12-23-05, 08:49 AM	Ok, but by dropping the cap limit and the custom items, casters will really lose. However i agree that those with credits really dominate the arena... A question: i have a masterwork bow. If i want a bow+1, do i have to buy it, or i can simply enchant my own by paying the additional cost?
Stormwind 12-23-05, 08:58 AM	Leave it as it is right now. All lowering the cap will do is make those players with lots of credits even more viable, and those with little or no credits even more worse off. Some people have such a rediculous amount of credits at their disposal that this change will not affect their expendable usage at all....and I don't think that is fair to the new player. I disagree. Players with lots of credits are already very viable, but that is not the question. The question is whether scrolls and stone of ECL+2 allow particular types of characters to dominate the arena. IMHO the answer to this is yes, and thus we should decrease this cap to be consistent with other expendables. As an example consider a ECL 3 character with one level of sorcerer or druid. Currently this character can have (and use with a CL check) a scroll of CL=ECL+2=5. Thats a third level spell and the other two character levels could be anything. In fact regardless of the other two character levels this character would be a force in the arena due solely to the availability of third level spells. Even if they are expensive, they give that character a significant better chance to win than any other ECL character (who has not used credits). Furthermore in the case of a player spending credits, with this change it would not provide something else for them to spend credits on (as they already can). Instead it would make it much more expensive for them to buy any higher CL scroll. This would actually limit such characters. Thus I reiterate my earlier statement. I am 100% in favour of lowering the cap on scrolls, stones (and all expendables) to ECL.
waywreth 12-23-05, 09:00 AM	A question: i have a masterwork bow. If i want a bow+1, do i have to buy it, or i can simply enchant my own by paying the additional cost? Yes you simply pay to have it enchanted. If you choose to get it enchanter with other additional abilities in the future, you can do that as well. Just a question: when i was creating my char, i missed that i have to select a divination spell each level, so i actually selected only true strike on 1st level. Now, i heavily rely on the spell i selected and i can't select a divination spell each level and then (buy scroll-learn spell) the other as i would spend more than 2000gp. So may i change the spell book, but still take the 375gp i earned for the fight in witch i surrendered? The place to ask permission for such is the Character Changes (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=522086) thread. Just post there an elder (usually Cat) will respond in a day or 2. Also I agree with Cerberus - leave the ECL+2 cap alone, with no credits.
Cerebus13 12-23-05, 09:12 AM	I disagree. Players with lots of credits are already very viable, but that is not the question. The question is whether scrolls and stone of ECL+2 allow particular types of characters to dominate the arena. IMHO the answer to this is yes, and thus we should decrease this cap to be consistent with other expendables. As an example consider a ECL 3 character with one level of sorcerer or druid. Currently this character can have (and use with a CL check) a scroll of CL=ECL+2=5. Thats a third level spell and the other two character levels could be anything. In fact regardless of the other two character levels this character would be a force in the arena due solely to the availability of third level spells. Even if they are expensive, they give that character a significant better chance to win than any other ECL character (who has not used credits). Furthermore in the case of a player spending credits, with this change it would not provide something else for them to spend credits on (as they already can). Instead it would make it much more expensive for them to buy any higher CL scroll. This would actually limit such characters. Thus I reiterate my earlier statement. I am 100% in favour of lowering the cap on scrolls, stones (and all expendables) to ECL.Then have the rule be you can't purchase an expendable with a CL/ML greater than the levels you possess in the class that gives you access to that material. No more 1 level dip sorcerers zapping just as hard a pure sorcerer would. I still believe the rules should stay as they are, or we'll see even fewer pure caster classes at lower ECL. The 1/3rd rule already completely hamstrings casters at low level...this change would gut them even more. Or leave the rules alone so people who have builds already advanced in the arena don't have to change them again.
TelinArtho 12-23-05, 09:28 AM	I'm not sure of my position with the whole scroll and other expendable issue. Frankly some of my most successful builds (*cough Sir Valkin) have made little use of expendables and only keeps enough on hand to make him viable versus certain damage reductions. I also don't see a lot of people making use of ECL+2 scrolls and those that do are rarely that much better off than someone using ECL scrolls that they crafted. Making > ECL scrolls cost credits is not that big of a deal to me because they aren't making that much of a difference. There's been some dissent about the availability of having credits for anything custom - and I have to point out a thing or two on this: 1. If we take away the ability to have "anything" custom - then say bye to all powerstones and tattoos - because they are not listed anywhere. If we allow them to be custom, then we need to allow potions and scrolls as well. 2. For truly custom magic items - I don't see a lot of call for it either. Aquin bought his necklace of See Invisibility for 15 credits, one of Cat's characters has an intelligent item, but beyond that - they're mostly items with different bonuses - and, again, I don't see this being a whole big deal at all. Having benefits for gaining credits is important. Why? Because it keeps the arena alive. Without those benefits, do you think I would be self-lessly running <max> fights each week? If people could only do a small selection of things with them, such as start a higher ecl character - do you think we would have enough pitlords? I rarely start characters above ECL3 - so for me, my credits will be mostly for "custom" magic items and to cover the cost of extra characters. If the custom magic items were taken out, I would only need the credits for the characters - which means I would only need to cover 4-5 credits/week - which is not tough for me to do. Anyway - back to the point - I don't see custom expendables being an issue. As a DM, I would have no problem allowing players to get custom expendables as long as they are DM approved - which they are here. With regard to the scrolls - I don't think it is going to make or break the system either way - so for that I abstain.
Macbrea 12-23-05, 10:35 AM	I personally would like to see the following for credit costs for custom scrolls/potions/powerstones/tattoos/wands/djores. ECL -2 = 0o ECL -1 = 1o ECL +0 = 2o ECL +1 = 3o ECL +2 = 4o Does this give advantage to individuals that have credits? Probably, but it allows players that don't have credits to get custom items later in their builds. They would need to be annotated in such a fashion that we could tell what level they were aquired at. Just my opinion on that.
Scribelords 12-23-05, 11:16 AM	Happy Holidays to all! Some Birthday o's as gifts: Happy Birthday to... Begferdeth - December 22nd Huan - December 25th SoulLord - December 25th 2o's to all of you. Enjoy! -Scribelords
SauroGrenom 12-23-05, 11:19 AM	Prestidigitation cannot be used to draw items. The spell is there to entertain mostly, and perhaps there might come up one or the other situation when it is really useful but it never replaces feats, nor does it damage. Due to the freestyle nature of this spell, it requires DM (here: pitlord) judgement and this should always take balance and the effects into consideration. Scrolls/Stones at CL+2: I have thought about it for some time and would like to hear your opinion first. As it is now, you can freely buy Scrolls/Powerstones at up to your ECL+2 which is an exception compared to the other expendables (all capped to your level). Now I am thinking about lowering that cap for scrolls and powerstones too. Three reasons come to my mind: consistency (with the other items), balance (because CL+2 is nothing to scoff at), and the expendable-heavy arena (should be more focused on the build's abilities). What do you think? Although I like the way it is now, this is not a bad idea. It will make FLY out of reach with scrolls in the early Arena. Dispell Magic also becomes out of reach untill the 5th ECL. On the psionics side, Touchsight also becomes unavailable untill ECL5 as well as Dismiss Ectoplasm and Dispell Psionics. THe loss of those powers at low levels may become important to tacitcs and responses. In General these changes will shift the balance of power away from equipment slightly and toward abilities. A change like that will be good for some builds, bad for others.
Ayrynthyn 12-23-05, 11:38 AM	I’m with TelinArtho on this, so i second all of his points, in addition... One of the main reasons I came here is to get my munchkin on. For those of us who don’t min max by trade, seeing the builds with the gear and the tactics... the whole package is whats important. Seeing the interaction there of, the rules at work, is what attracts RPers and folks new to the system here. At least it did for me. If I wanted to pine away "man... I wish, just once, that I could see a Wand of Cure Light Wounds", I can do it every other Saturday when I get together with my PnP cronies... The point has been made that, that a 3rd level char can roll in with a CL5 Scroll and own the Arena. If he wants to drop 12.5% of his starting cash on a once use item, that will cost roughly 1/3 of his winnings to replace if he's ally free, over half of his winnings if he brings his mount, and heaven forbid if he looses. If he wants to put all of his eggs in one basket like that I say let him... the end result of this (presumably), is the character moves to the next league quicker than his contemporaries, with a significantly lighter coin purse than his more organically grown counterpart. I say let him... if not, and the build required a Scroll of X or a wand of Y to work, he could just spend credits at creation to come in at the higher level and appropriate CL to accomplish the same thing. Putting additional restirctions and limitations would be a detriment to the CoCo in the long run (imho) A side note about credits. Credits are a good thing. They promote participation here. My opinion on them is that they should be required for anything that requires DM approval/Intervention. If you need to PM Pitlords with a “I need to run 10 fights this week so I can buy my item X and activate my character for next week”, I humbly submit that this is not a bad thing…
Altaris13 12-23-05, 12:13 PM	A side note about credits. Credits are a good thing. They promote participation here. My opinion on them is that they should be required for anything that requires DM approval/Intervention. If you need to PM Pitlords with a “I need to run 10 fights this week so I can buy my item X and activate my character for next week”, I humbly submit that this is not a bad thing… Quoted for truth.
Usurpator 12-23-05, 12:24 PM	My opinion: Q: Do expendables play an important part in the current arena enviroment? A: Yes, many succesfull characters make heavy use of expendables. Some characters would not even be viable competitors without heavy use of expendables. Q: Does the power of expendables come form being able to use ECL+2 scrolls and powerstones? A: No. The main part of the power of expendables comes from having the right item for the right situation, and from having so many options that it is hard for your opponent to write tactics for. Many succesfull expandables users can win with just ECL+0 expendables as well. Q: What are the most nasty expendables? A: Expendables that provide evasion ability that make a gladiator practically untouchable to his opponent, and/or allow him to deliver a devastating alpha strike at a moment chosen by him. Examples: invisibility, fly, alter self (with outsiders), mirror image, protection from arrows, shield, enlarge person(+grapple), true strike, dissolving weapon etc. Q: Does lowering the scrolls/powerstones limit to ECL+0 instead of ECL+2 solve this problem? A: No. Many of the 'nasty' expendables are only 1st and 2nd lvl spells/powers, although there are some of 3rd lvl as well (Fly being the most notable among them). 4th and higher-level expendables are generally not cost-effective if their use is required to win on a regular basis. Only the ECL 3 and 4 leagues will be slightly affected by the new rule. Q: Do you have an expendables based character? A: Yes. Kitaya, modelled both after Nexa and Balbanes. With her I can go for the invisbility+enlarge person+true strike+grapple tactic, fly+ranged weapons tactic, fly+reach weapons tactic, alter self+shield+mage armor=sky high AC tactic, expeditous retreat+mirror image+ranged weapons tactic, etc. etc. Currently she has only one ECL+2 scroll, a divine scroll of Fly, and she did not yet need to use it, although her opponents in previous fights did expect her too. Which is, as I pointed out before, an advantage of having many expendables/options.
Warclone 12-23-05, 12:44 PM	Note to all the ppl who have me pitlording them.. I'll be out of town until monday, I'll get all games done then.
MindWandererB 12-23-05, 12:58 PM	We could increase the credit cost to 1° per CL above your ECL. That'd make it 2° for a Call Lightning@ECL3. Please don't do this, and especially not Macbrea's extreme solution. These measures would make casters unplayable except for those with credits. Credits are supposed to compensate for messy bookkeeping, not raw power. That's not the kind of environment you've been promoting until now. If you really want to change the environment in this way, make it an absolute cap--no credits will help you. @MindWanderer: A 10% chance of burning the item opposed to a much higher chance of winning the fight because of the scroll is a risk worth taking. Your proposed general cap on expandables a character may possess would be a very good solution but it is hard to track. And would you forbid a wizard to scribe a lot of scrolls with his feat just because he hits the cap? I'd like to have the arena be closer to a real campaign where character concepts cannot rely on expendables (especially if they cannot craft them on their own). If the goal is to mimic real D&D, then the only way to impose limites is through GP values. That's the limiting factor in D&D. Perhaps a limit per expendable item? I can't quite figure out the proper formula, but it should appoximately allow tattoos of level X, potions of level X+1, and scrolls of level X+2, with a 100% effective cap increase for anything you can make yourself. I personally think potions and tattoos are the bigger problem, since they require no investment at all--if I created a D&D-viable character that involved several buffs, and someone else comes along and does the same thing with no caster level at all, it devalues my build. Another option, although I hate to mention it, is to lower rewards across the board. Why don't D&D characters blow ECL+2 scrolls on every encounter? Because most encounters don't merit it, and don't earn enough money to make up the loss. On the CoCo, even losers will make up most of their losses unless they really burn through the expendables. Yet another, similar option would be to place a gp value cap on total expendables expended per fight. A pain in the bookkeeping butt, but it would do the job. I think the per-item cap is a better idea. Something else that I think would help, although I'm not high enough level yet to know for sure, is lowering the requirement for prebuffs. I think an 8-hour duration is plenty, as few dungeon crawls last that long. And nothing I know of has an 8-hour duration that isn't self-cast.
Cerebus13 12-23-05, 01:23 PM	Going out of town for a few days so I won't be able to participate much in this discussion, but when I return I will tally up a final result of my other questions in the FAQ thread. After that if no decision has been made concerning the ECL+2 consumable items rule, perhaps we can have another community opinion vote on it and see what everyone thinks.
SauroGrenom 12-23-05, 01:51 PM	Scrolls/Stones at CL+2: I have thought about it for some time and would like to hear your opinion first. As it is now, you can freely buy Scrolls/Powerstones at up to your ECL+2 which is an exception compared to the other expendables (all capped to your level). Now I am thinking about lowering that cap for scrolls and powerstones too. Three reasons come to my mind: consistency (with the other items), balance (because CL+2 is nothing to scoff at), and the expendable-heavy arena (should be more focused on the build's abilities). What do you think? I've given this alot more thought since my first reply above. First off it's not clear if you are proposing to cap scrolls and powerstones at Character Level or Caster Level. From a game mechanics perspective to limit the scrolls, stones to caster/manifester level instead of ECL will nearly invalidate the need for CL roles on any scrolls. Every scroll purchased without credits will have atleast a 90% chance of success. Making a change capping scrolls/stones at caster level+2 will nearly invalidate all builds that "dip" one level or two into a casting/manifesting class. One of the major strengths of these builds is the access to those large lists of expendibles and that access is an ability of the build. These builds that "dip" into caster classes are often the most successfull, so a case can be made that they are perhaps to powerfull. A quick sensus indicates that of the 14 gladiators with Great Renown, 4 are builds that have a single level in a casting/manifesting class. Of those 4, 3 are Caterane's characters. This may give us some perspective on how powerfull these gladiators are relative to others. It appears that some players are very successfull at using scrolls/stones of ECL+2 to make there gladiators win in the Arena. On the other hand if you are proposing to cap scrolls and stones at character level+2 then the only chracters that are impacted by this are those who have signifigant level adjustment or racial HD. Frankly if you go throught the roster and count up the number of chracters who have a difference between ECL and character level or more than 2, then you will find only a small proportion of characters fall into that category. A second sensus of the Great Renown gladiators shows only 2 who have a character level more than 2 levels behind there ECL, and both of those are Caterane's characters. The quick analysis above indicates that in either case, using character level or caster level, a new cap would only effect a small fraction of the most successfull gladiators. If the ECL+2 cap was unbalanced, you would expect it to have a greater effect on the success of various gladiators played by any players, not just Caterane's characters. Cat, I can see how you may come to the conclusion that ECL+2 scrolls and stones are unbalanced, because your characters appear to be in a position where they can use those stones and scrolls to cast at a level much higher than there own casting level or even character level and your gladiators often win because of it. If you decide to do this, it will signifigantly impact the casting power of your own characters (shifting the tactics of several others characters as well) but it won't greatly impact the casting ability of very many of the most successfull gladiators.
Altaris13 12-23-05, 02:02 PM	I need serious assitance. I have used Dungeon Crafter to craft a pair of maps for a quest. However, I cannot load them to photobucket without them being reduced to such a small size as to be useless. When I resize them in MSPaint and then try to load the maps, I get a "server not available" response from photobucket. Experienced questlord/mapmakers, please help me.
Dracazar 12-23-05, 02:06 PM	Try Adobe Photoshop
TelinArtho 12-23-05, 02:07 PM	What file format are you saving them in? From my experience .bmp is one of the worst and has that kind of behavior with photobucket. You are best off saving them as .jpg (jpeg) - which can be done in most image editors, MS Paint inclusive. After getting it in that format, you can adjust the size of the image by going to the Image Menu, selecting Attributes and adjusting the Width and Length of the picture (in pixels). If you need further help - let me know. I can access Yahoo messenger from where I am - but I do not have MSN messenger available.
Guildmaster (EYE) 12-23-05, 02:17 PM	also, if its a free photobucket account (and recently set up) the default max picture size is way below the advertised 512k. You can go into your photobuckt "Account Options" and make sure that you bump the max picture size to 512 for a larger map (and make sure your file size is below 512k. As mentioned, jpg as well as gif and png are good "universal" compressed formats ) on a side note... I use The Gimp (http://www.gimp.org/) for my map and imaging needs, not being intimate with photoshop mind you, the Gimp is an freeware open source alternative that does a ton of wicked stuff... i havent thought of anything that i cant do (or find a tutorial for) with it yet ...
Papapeperoni 12-23-05, 03:03 PM	What to do? My pitlords (Huan) inbox is full, and he doesn't have my tactic yet! Help? --Papapeperoni, God of Pizza's
TelinArtho 12-23-05, 03:05 PM	Post to the Fights of the Week thread and say: HEY Huan! Your PM box is full. Or if you have access to his email - send it there (I believe it is linked in the "active pitlords" post of the characters thread).
Wind 12-23-05, 03:42 PM	Just a note: i retired my old Dolleth and created a new Dollethu....
Ravashack 12-23-05, 03:43 PM	Yes, but wizards get scribe scroll for free. Actually i was thinking that a caster can do little without his scrolls/powerstones, but many fight aren't balanced beacuse a single spell can end everything. Oops, forgot to post why I wanted them to have the feat--basically I think that if you want to have scrolls and powerstones and other expendables higher than base caster level, you should have to make it yourself.
Vathelokai 12-23-05, 05:54 PM	Just a question: when i was creating my char, i missed that i have to select a divination spell each level, so i actually selected only true strike on 1st level. Now, i heavily rely on the spell i selected and i can't select a divination spell each level and then (buy scroll-learn spell) the other as i would spend more than 2000gp. So may i change the spell book, but still take the 375gp i earned for the fight in witch i surrendered? Seems this one got lost in the shuffle... You should post the changes you want to make in the character changes thread. Once Caterane approves the change, then you make a link to Cat's post from your spellbook.
Usurpator 12-23-05, 06:45 PM	I've given this alot more thought since my first reply above. First off it's not clear if you are proposing to cap scrolls and powerstones at Character Level or Caster Level. I thought Cat meant a cap at ECL, not character level or caster level. Character level will indeed adversely affect characters with level adjustments as you said. Basing it on caster level will make it impossible for those with Use Magic Device to activate a scroll since they are not allowed to buy ones, for example, and is not a viable solution. Because of the setup of the arena, with spell use limited and no fellow adventurers to support you, it is only logical that you turn to expendables to 'fix' gaps in your tactics or shore up weaknesses. In regular games me and my friends rarely use expendables except for the odd wand of cure light wounds. Most expendables found are sold and the gold used to crank out permanent magical items. An equivalent of a 1/3rd rule for expendables would fix this problem, but currently I see no way to implement such a rule properly. Besides, maybe we should be glad that expendables are fairly useful for a change.
SauroGrenom 12-23-05, 07:09 PM	I need serious assitance. I have used Dungeon Crafter to craft a pair of maps for a quest. However, I cannot load them to photobucket without them being reduced to such a small size as to be useless. When I resize them in MSPaint and then try to load the maps, I get a "server not available" response from photobucket. Experienced questlord/mapmakers, please help me. I am by no means an experiences quest lord, but I ran into exacitially this problem when I was posting the PSI-Consortium map. I figured out that I was linking the thumbnail image on the album view of the photobucket page. All you need to do is click on the image after it has been uploaded to the file server. That will bring up a larger image, and put that URL into IMG tags on your post. It comes up as a bigger picture on your post then.
Book5 12-23-05, 07:47 PM	ECL+2 - Now that I think about it.. Yeah pull it down. Having the ability to cast a produce a magical or psionic effect that a caster or manifestor of your own level could bring to bear is not fair. It can hapen in games - but via that which is represented by credits. "Good Gaming" bonus aka Credits. Add this, Caster's with the appropriate class add their CL to their ECL for purposes of determining their credit line for thier focus. Wizards know wizards.. but not clerics. Manifestors dont get the bonus for scrolls. Castors dont get the bonus for stones. If its on your class list = ECL+CL Not on your class list = ECL-1 :smirk: I have also stolen shamelessly from my enemies for years.. and I mean alot. You can get lots of "off level" stuff that way. Well I stole this crown of holy word... command word activated 3/day .. but Im second level ... and evil! I say fine whatever to however... I have cred, and I can agree that having access to spell "you couldnt cast even if you were a full caster of the right type" is a little unbalanced. However, I do think that UMD and UPD characters should have the ability to purchase items they have the skills to use without paying credits. Casters and manifestors can generally be considered to have access to higher level characters of their same type, and I should point out I have not fully analyzed the entire credit spending processes. Back to my books, \|||/ Prestidigitation, I have to say uncle. Tan (& Auburn? perhaps Vath did it right and I didnt..) are using Presto wrong, but can we clarify? a little? "Target" Can I target my bullet bag and have the little rocks float out to my sling? "Free" up the loading time? Whats wrong with floating a weapon off my belt with my mind? It says 1 lb. I am not even saying fast! Just "no hands" so how about "not" an action? I know I can float scrolls in front of me... but it takes a move-e action to raise them from the ground? With my mind? Move-e to grab object floating ready right by my hand? Im not saying it happens fast... but I figured it happens while you do something else so its "not" an action. I am not saying that Tan zings daggers from his belt like Yoda. Im just saying it frees up a hand. "Allows drawing light objects from a pack while moving." Is that to much? I have to watch my asides with you people dont I.. I never ever suggested that prestidigitation deals damage. I said cantrip could deal 1 damage. Cantrips did/do deal damage. 2nded! Cantrips (if you could cast more of them) are very handy in combat. All of them. cept mending.. but mending is way useful nonetheless. Presto.. apparenly not so? Entertainment.. as in yourself? Does it give a bonus to perform? No, can it be used as perfom? No. Can it make things float.. yep. Does it require concentration.. no. So, the question is: Targeting is a move-e action. Ok. What qualifies as a target? (a single scroll? five scrolls?) and how much can be done with one target as a free action before you have to redefine your "target" or "directions" ? Here is an example: Presto Perm. Scrolls in case Light Weapon in both hands Presto is "targeted" on scroll(s) already {free} Float Scroll out of case without presto {standard} Attack once with weapon {movement} Redirect focus of presto to one weapon {free} Change one hand from weapon to floating scroll1 {free} Float weapon to sheath ... :thinks: would this be more accurate? {not} Float Targeted scroll out of case {standard} Attack with weapon {movement} Redirect focus of presto to one weapon {free} Change one hand from floating weapon to floating scroll1 {not} Float weapon to sheath 1, Presuming two things A: the "float here" is persistant (remains until out of range, end of duration, or new directions) B: moving a hand like that is a free action Here would be another question? Is the float relative? Is this an accurate string of actions? {movement} direct focus to float a candle off the ground (providing light) {standard} ready melee/ranged weapon (dagger) to attack anything that moves {movement} walk 20 feet {not} candle floats in relative position without additional prompts {standard} ready weapon again {not} Spot moving Bat {free} ranged attack with dagger (bat falls dead 10' away) {movement} redirect presto target to dagger in belt. {not} candle floats at relative position due to persistance {free} 5ft step towards bat/dagger {not} candle remains floating due to persistance {not} belt dagger floats off belt {standard} ready to attack bats w/ dagger {not} Spot moving Bat {free} ranged attack with dagger (misses lands 30 ft away) {free} Grab floating dagger {movement} direct presto to float dagger on ground {standard} ready to attack bats with dagger {not} No spot {movement} walk 20ft toward other dagger {free} Draw dagger from belt manually {not} .5 lb dagger and *lb candle float at relative position due to persistance {standard} ready to attack bats with a dagger {not} spot bat {free} attack w/ thrown dagger (miss lands 30ft away) {free} Grab floating dagger {full attack} attack with 2 thrown daggers (hit and miss) {not} *lb candle floats at relative position due to persistance {movement} direct presto to potion at belt {movement} walk to second thrown dagger {free} draw another dagger {not} *lb potion and *lb candle float at realative positions due to persistance {movement} retrieve dagger from ground {standard} ready to attack any bats {not} *lb potion and *lb candle float at realative positions due to persistance {not} spot bat {free} attack ranged at bat (miss) Lands 30ft away {free} AoO on bat as it attempts grapple (miss) {not} Opposed grapple with bat (... fail! ;) {standard} Escape from grapple (success) {movement} focus presto to create a small smelly object {not} *lb potion and *lb candle float at realative positions due to persistance {free} AoO on bat as it attempts to grapple (hit) {standard} Handle Animal "Fetch" (success) throwing small smelly object as focus. {free} 5ft step closer to second thrown dagger (now 10ft away) {movement} target dagger on ground with presto and float {not} .5lb dagger, *lb potion, and *lb candle float at realative positions due to persistance {not} small smelly object ceases to exist outside the area of effect {movement} walk 20 feet toward other dagger {not} .5lb dagger, *lb potion, and *lb candle float at realative positions due to persistance {not} Spot another bat {free} grab floating potion w/ free hand {standard} drink potion of haste {standard} ranged attack on bat 20ft away (hit) {movement} walk 10 feet to be within 10 feet of both daggers {free} grab floating dagger {movement} target one dagger with presto and float {standard} ready to attack with dagger {not} .5lb dagger, *lb potion, and *lb candle float at realative positions due to persistance {not} spot new bat {free} attack with ranged dagger (miss) {free} grab floating dagger {movement} target the other dagger with presto and float {movement} walk 20 feet towards other daggers {free} draw another dagger {not} .5lb dagger, *lb potion, and *lb candle float at realative positions due to persistance {standard} ready to attack bats
Book5 12-23-05, 08:16 PM	Oops, forgot to post why I wanted them to have the feat--basically I think that if you want to have scrolls and powerstones and other expendables higher than base caster level, you should have to make it yourself. Did frodo make his ring? His shirt? his lambas? his sword? No! Not only does it makes sense to get higher level items from other character - there are pretty strait foreward rules for how to do it in the books already. Very few fantasy characters have been dipicted as making all their own equipment. Most table played parties have access not only to NPC crafters but usually a PC crafter as well... Cohort crafters~! Thats a classic! I don't think the idea is that each character should be expected to act in a vacuume of interaction with other character types. Thats not RAI at all. And of course - spoils? You are expected to find spoils! Often of higher ECL to CL ratio proposed, and generated by classes not your own to boot. I am really in arythryn's camp in that I think the risk (mishap and simple failure possibility) and the expense are sufficient consequence for trying gain an advantage via higher than your level CL/ML expendable equipment. But a credit line has to be drawn somewhere, I guess.
Ravashack 12-23-05, 08:50 PM	Did frodo make his ring? His shirt? his lambas? his sword? No! Not only does it makes sense to get higher level items from other character - there are pretty strait foreward rules for how to do it in the books already. Very few fantasy characters have been dipicted as making all their own equipment. Most table played parties have access not only to NPC crafters but usually a PC crafter as well... Cohort crafters~! Thats a classic! I don't think the idea is that each character should be expected to act in a vacuume of interaction with other character types. Thats not RAI at all. And of course - spoils? You are expected to find spoils! Often of higher ECL to CL ratio proposed, and generated by classes not your own to boot. I am really in arythryn's camp in that I think the risk (mishap and simple failure possibility) and the expense are sufficient consequence for trying gain an advantage via higher than your level CL/ML expendable equipment. But a credit line has to be drawn somewhere, I guess. Just one massive hole there in that logic. Did Frodo go out and shop for his ring and other accessories? No, he FOUND it. (Or rather, it came to him, depending on how you consider Major Artifacts...) In addition, we're talking about having this stuff on a convenient day by day basis. I'm sure there's PLENTY of One Rings out there for every single hobbit to have if they have enough money! Oh yeah, I'm sure there's lots of mithril chain shirts lying around in Middle Earth for sale...except that, you know, they're so rare that just one is worth the entire Shire. And so on. Furthermore, this is about EXPENDABLES. Not permanent magic items. Edit: To clarify, I was expanding on what I was saying about the expendables earlier. Permanent items are a totally different ballgame. Also, try working on actually being more diplomatic in your post. If you've going to be sarcastic towards me like that, I'll be more than happy to point out how much of an ass you're being and treat you like one. I found your post particularly offensive.
bluemage55 12-23-05, 09:07 PM	Expendables should actually be easier to find than permanent magic items. It's not inconvievable for mid-level and high-level casters to make a bunch of potions and 3rd-7th level scrolls and just leave them around for sale if they end up not using/needing them; just consider the average magic shop in a large city like Waterdeep or Amn. The city of Gladius should have those too, especially since it caters to gladiators and because higher level gladiators start selling back equipment that they no longer need, which often include low level expendables once they pick up stronger spells/wands/staffs of the same spell or the same bonus type. As for the move to fewer expendables, while this might be a worthy concept to consider, realism-wise, it's not too strange to expect gladiators to carry a bunch in the same way that soldiers in a modern-day army carry grenades and flashbangs: they cause a lot of bang for their buck.
Snommelp 12-23-05, 09:11 PM	Expendables should actually be easier to find than permanent magic items. It's not inconvievable for mid-level and high-level casters to make a bunch of potions and 3rd-7th level scrolls and just leave them around for sale if they end up not using/needing them; just consider the average magic shop in a large city like Waterdeep or Amn. The city of Gladius should have those too, especially since it caters to gladiators and because higher level gladiators start selling back equipment that they no longer need, which often include low level expendables once they pick up stronger spells/wands/staffs of the same spell or the same bonus type. bluemage makes a very good point; for the sake of realism, if gladiators can sell items (albeit at half price), why couldn't other gladiators buy those same items? That's what magic "shops" have been in all of my campaigns: unwanted items that more powerful casters decided to make a profit off of rather than just tossing.
Book5 12-23-05, 09:50 PM	Just one massive hole there in that logic. Furthermore, this is about EXPENDABLES. Not permanent magic items. Same difference though. No Frodo didnt buy his equipment but where is the logic in saying that permanant magical items made by others are perfectly commonly available but expendable items (arguably lesser objects) are not commonly available for purchase?
Book5 12-23-05, 10:39 PM	Mini-quests.. "please dont post here" I have an idea. For the "joining the guild" quests.. what if other guild members were allowed to pooka thier noses in? Like for example Silas does an errand for the TAO (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=556628) It started in the TAO chambers.. Tan was there. I wouldnt mind if others poked their nose into one of my miniquests.. (particularly miniquests) - "stealing the show" thats one thing. But "bon voyage?" isnt that another? It'd be .. i dunno "chummy" just a thought.. I saw Silas's "feat of feet" NiQiL!
Skojar 12-23-05, 10:41 PM	I need a quick rules clarification. I'm looking to start a new ECL 3 character that will have 1 level of druid (not his first level)...I would like to use the animal companion as a mount. I'm already assuming I don't need to quest for my initial Druid animal companion (let me know if otherwise), but I'm not clear on what tricks it will know initially. Can I start out with more than just the one bonus trick or do I need to have a one-trick animal companion and take the six week to train combat riding?
Snommelp 12-23-05, 10:51 PM	I need a quick rules clarification. I'm looking to start a new ECL 3 character that will have 1 level of druid (not his first level)...I would like to use the animal companion as a mount. I'm already assuming I don't need to quest for my initial Druid animal companion (let me know if otherwise), but I'm not clear on what tricks it will know initially. Can I start out with more than just the one bonus trick or do I need to have a one-trick animal companion and take the six week to train combat riding? If you get the companion before the character starts in the arena (which you can indeed do), then you can spend as much pre-arena time as you need training it. In other words, yes, you can start it with more than just the one bonus trick.
Snommelp 12-23-05, 10:56 PM	Mini-quests.. "please dont post here" I have an idea. For the "joining the guild" quests.. what if other guild members were allowed to pooka thier noses in? Like for example Silas does an errand for the TAO (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=556628) It started in the TAO chambers.. Tan was there. I wouldnt mind if others poked their nose into one of my miniquests.. (particularly miniquests) - "stealing the show" thats one thing. But "bon voyage?" isnt that another? It'd be .. i dunno "chummy" just a thought.. I saw Silas's "feat of feet" NiQiL! If any change in this area were to occur, it would be to change the rule to "it's the questlord's decision," and most questlords I'm guessing would still prefer to keep it one-on-one. I know I would; things just move faster that way.
Ravashack 12-23-05, 11:02 PM	Same difference though. No Frodo didnt buy his equipment but where is the logic in saying that permanant magical items made by others are perfectly commonly available but expendable items (arguably lesser objects) are not commonly available for purchase? Uh, no. Limiting the caster level doesn't make those item types less available for purchase. You make the expendables at the minimal cost for ready sale so that more people can use your goods for the same amount of XP. That doesn't stop expendables from being available or harder to find, it stops the expendables you want from being readily available. Otherwise by the same logic, wands should be allowed to be bought at whatever caster level you want as well, and they aren't. You should be able to put whatever you want in one (up to normal limits of 4th level spells) and you can't. Keep in mind that no matter what restrictions there are, you can bend pretty much all of them with the right amount of credits.
Ariel23 12-24-05, 02:46 AM	Scrolls/Stones at CL+2: Three reasons come to my mind: consistency (with the other items), balance (because CL+2 is nothing to scoff at), and the expendable-heavy arena (should be more focused on the build's abilities). :love: Yes, oh yes, oh please yes! The CoCo is advertised as "Improving your Optimization Skills" but who would design a character with the intention of using 500 gp worth of potions and scrolls every single time they have an encounter? Is that really what any of us considers an "Optimum Build" for tabletop Dungeons and Dragons? :noway: I can understand counting on a wand. Or possibly Brew Potion or Scribe Scroll, but not to the extent that we see it in Gladius. When was the last time you had a 3rd level character that :shocked:looked like this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7874032)? * May be 4th level by the time you look at it. I'm not saying that getting rid of ECL+2 is the perfect solution, nor necessarily even part of the solution, but I like that we are considering it. Think about the following:Limited Use Items: If you're playing a one-shot random dungeon, one-use items cost 5 times their normal price and charged items have 1/5 as many charges... ... If you're bringing an existing character into a one-shot dungeon, "trade in" your one-use items for other one-use items at 5 times the cost. For items with charges, give them 1/5 as many charges as normal. This is obviously not an exact reflection of CoCo, but it is relevant, IMHO. 0) We generally fight only one opponent per combat [yes, there are a lot of exceptions, but we all build to fight only one--when was the last time a Fighter took Cleave or Great Cleave?]. Pencil and paper D&D simply isn't like that. Single-target scrolls and spells are heavily skewed in CoCo, when what everyone wants in D&D is a big effect like Fireball. You would kill to get a 3rd level wand of Fireball for your 3rd level wizard in D&D, even if it only did 3d6 damage. In CoCo, you'd trade it in a heartbeat for Acid Arrow. Which adds the point of how incredibly useful continuous damage is in CoCo, when the same is not true of D&D. Other examples abound. [All expendables are based on spells and powers. Some expendables should be worth more than others? 1) The CR/XP system is set up to average about 13 encounters per level. Since we all [as an aggregate] win/lose at a 50/50 rate in the arena, we only require 6.5 encounters to level, on average. [One-use items are twice as good?] 2) Spells, powers, etc are already deemed about 3 times more powerful than in a standard D&D build. [One-use items are three times as good?] 3) A 3rd level sorcerer with an 18 CHA can cast TWO spells per day in the arena. But a 3rd level sorcerer with Craft Wand can realistically cast about 25! A 3rd level wand of Magic Missile would cost 1125 or 562.5 crafted. Using 8 MM per fight, that is a cost of 180 gp [90 gp and 3.6 XP crafted] to quintuple your spells per day! (Substitute Sleep and the cost goes down to 120 and 60.) [One-use items are five times as good?] 4) Our fights generally last for under 20 rounds. That is like D&D, true, but we only fight for 20 rounds and then rest for 6 days. In true D&D, your fighter is not going to count on 3 minute duration potions such as Bull's Strength to get him through an entire dungeon. Most of them will wear off by the next encounter, so you save them only for the big fights. But every fight in CoCo is a "big" fight. [One-use items are six times as good?] Does anyone actually believe that expendables have the same "value" that they have in their pen n' paper games at home?
Ariel23 12-24-05, 03:00 AM	In the RAW, can a 3rd level Wilder craft [ML 5] items? In CoCo, can a 7th level Wilder craft [ML 10] items without paying credits? If not, why not? Same basic question for a character with the Overchannel feat. How would that affect the ECL+0 rule?
Dracazar 12-24-05, 04:18 AM	When was the last time you had a 3rd level character that :shocked:looked like this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7874032)? The character you linked is Cher, she doesn't have scrolls above her ECL and she wrote (Scribe Scroll) the scrolls that uses using a feat, what is the problem with that? She is follower of the god of Magic, she loves magic and uses her gold for scrolls instead of magic armors and weapon. Also her player (me) did this build to familiarize with some spells (mostly cleric) that he rarely uses.
bluemage55 12-24-05, 05:50 AM	In the RAW, can a 3rd level Wilder craft [ML 5] items? In CoCo, can a 7th level Wilder craft [ML 10] items without paying credits? If not, why not? Same basic question for a character with the Overchannel feat. How would that affect the ECL+0 rule? By the RAW, no. A caster's manifester level, and not effective manifester level in certain situations, determines what they can craft. For the same reason, a character with the Earth Spell feat, from Races of Stone, which allows them to increase caster level when heightening spells and touching the ground, will not be able to craft a 20th level scroll of a first level spell at 14th level.
Altaris13 12-24-05, 09:54 AM	:love: Yes, oh yes, oh please yes! The CoCo is advertised as "Improving your Optimization Skills" but who would design a character with the intention of using 500 gp worth of potions and scrolls every single time they have an encounter? Ahem*coughArtificercough*
Ravashack 12-24-05, 10:23 AM	Ahem*coughArtificercough* LOL Too bad Eberron doesn't qualify for CoCo, but other than that minor detail...so so true...
Ariel23 12-24-05, 12:47 PM	The artificer gains every crafting feat as a bonus feat, and basically doesn't pay XP to craft. [Between their Craft Reserve and using up extra treasure.] That's not really what I would call a "build" --that's more like saying "I built a paladin who's going to be good at fighting evil." Not exactly revolutionary. :P
Ariel23 12-24-05, 01:01 PM	Does anyone know how caltrops work? I mean how they really work? What does it take to deploy them? A standard action? Does it take one standard action per 5'x5' square? What if you just want to dump a bunch of them at once from the same bag? Can you throw them? Do you need 2 hands? Can you ready an action to use them against a charge? Are they like ammunition and you lose 50% of them each fight? They're not listed as ammunition, and if so, how do you know which ones "hit" and which ones "missed?" Aren't they all going to "hit" the square they land in? What do you need to spot caltrops? If you get a +2 armor bonus to AC for wearing shoes but you ignore armor bonuses, what's the point? A "charging" creature must stop...what about someone who is double-moving but not charging? If you move at half-speed you can "pick your way through the caltrops"...what if you are making a full attack and a 5' step...are you still "picking your way through" when 5' is actually your full move for the round. What happens if you are knocked down or go prone in a caltrops-infested square? What if you try to jump over them and fail...wouldn't jumping onto them be worse than just walking through them? Do caltrops affect swarms? They do damage to a single creature but they are an area effect. Believe it or not I had some more questions, but I can't remember them all. Best of luck to you all and to my DM this week. :gah:
Altaris13 12-24-05, 01:59 PM	The artificer gains every crafting feat as a bonus feat, and basically doesn't pay XP to craft. [Between their Craft Reserve and using up extra treasure.] That's not really what I would call a "build" --that's more like saying "I built a paladin who's going to be good at fighting evil." Not exactly revolutionary. :P What's your point? An artificer may not be spending XP, but they /are/ spending lots of gold in expendables. Especially at low levels. /That/ is what we were discussing, NOT XP.
Skojar 12-24-05, 03:30 PM	Does anyone know how caltrops work? I mean how they really work? New to Gladius, but in leiu of actual official rulings, here's my suggestions: What does it take to deploy them? A standard action? Does it take one standard action per 5'x5' square? What if you just want to dump a bunch of them at once from the same bag? Can you throw them? Do you need 2 hands? Can you ready an action to use them against a charge? move-equivalent action for each 5-foot square, requiring two hands (one to toss, one for bag...if the bag is attached to your belt or something I can see it needing only one hand.) You can only fill squares within your normal reach. Attempting to make caltrops cover a wider area or scattering them outside your reach spreads them out so much that they can no longer benefit from the attack roll (they are too sparse for them to even have a 5% chance of doing damage. Are they like ammunition and you lose 50% of them each fight? They're not listed as ammunition, and if so, how do you know which ones "hit" and which ones "missed?" Aren't they all going to "hit" the square they land in? I had trouble deciding between single-use and fully recovereable. They are clearly not ammunition, they are adventuring gear like a fishhook or a bar of soap. I'm going to say, though, that once a bag is used they cannot be recovered. This is for ease of bookkeeping. Some are lost, some are bent or left in your enemy...if there are 20 in a 2-lb bag, will the 12 that are recovered have the same attack bonus if you try to re-use only them? Caltrops are a single use item (ala alchemist's fire). The +0 attack bonus reflects the chance of them doing damage when properly deployed. It represents the coordinated effect of all the caltrops in the square. You do not need to make an attack roll to scatter caltrops. What do you need to spot caltrops? They are fine and therefore have a +16 ot 'hide' and Dex —. I'm not sure what the effects of being an inanimate object have on 'hiding', but the spot check (reactive) would probably be 16, 21, or 26. I'm guessing 26. (with modifiers from terrain and distance) If you get a +2 armor bonus to AC for wearing shoes but you ignore armor bonuses, what's the point? This is obviously a typo. If anyone cared, it would have been fixed in errata to be a circumstance bonus. A "charging" creature must stop...what about someone who is double-moving but not charging? If you move at half-speed you can "pick your way through the caltrops"...what if you are making a full attack and a 5' step...are you still "picking your way through" when 5' is actually your full move for the round. Charging and running are more reckless than double-moving. This is reflected in the decrease to AC. You can pick through caltrops if moving at less than half speed. It is relative to their speed, so only creatures with a 10ft move would have to worry about the distinction. What happens if you are knocked down or go prone in a caltrops-infested square? What if you try to jump over them and fail...wouldn't jumping onto them be worse than just walking through them? If they go prone for any reason, then their AC to melee attacks (like the caltrops') would decrease, representing an increased likelihood of taking damage. they don't take more damage, but they are more likely to take it. Do caltrops affect swarms? They do damage to a single creature but they are an area effect. Ah ha! that's the problem. Caltrops are not an area effect. They are a trap. Members of a swarm are too small to be effected by caltrops and completely ignore them. Believe it or not I had some more questions, but I can't remember them all. Best of luck to you all and to my DM this week. :gah:
lonewolf 12-24-05, 05:46 PM	there was a discussion about if Dissolving weapon is a valid prebuff or not, but I cant find it atm. What was the result?
Pittbull 12-24-05, 06:53 PM	there was a discussion about if Dissolving weapon is a valid prebuff or not, but I cant find it atm. What was the result? You can use DW in two ways: - on melee-weapons: it discharges on the first successful hit - on ranged weapons (not on ammunition): it discharges on the first attack, successful or not. You are not allowed to charge arrows, only the bow. Please don't forget, prebuffs or buffs don't carry over to the next fight.
Skojar 12-24-05, 08:15 PM	You know what, I'm going to have to say I was wrong on my previous post about caltrops. If there are twenty of those buggers in a 5ft square, that's not a fine object, it's twenty fine objects. Lets round it to a nice even Spot DC 20.
Wind 12-25-05, 08:22 AM	MERRY CHRISTMAS to everyone!!!!
Altaris13 12-25-05, 09:54 AM	Merry Christmas! Happy Holidays to all, God Bless, and Blessed Be.
Pittbull 12-25-05, 10:25 AM	Yes, Merry Chrsitmas to all of you! I hope, you all got nice presents! God bless you and thanks for your participation in our nice forum.
Abyssal Stalker 12-25-05, 12:12 PM	I have a rules question about full plate and casters: Is a cleric wearing a full plate able to cast spells with somatic components? I mean full plate is said to include gauntlets and gauntlets can be used as weapons. To cast a spell with somatic components the caster needs to have at least one hand free. Usually a hand equipped with a gauntlet or a spiked gauntlet is considered to be free but is this the case with spells with somatic components? I'm going to count on this on my next character so please answer...
Zevox 12-25-05, 01:46 PM	I have a rules question about full plate and casters: Is a cleric wearing a full plate able to cast spells with somatic components? I mean full plate is said to include gauntlets and gauntlets can be used as weapons. To cast a spell with somatic components the caster needs to have at least one hand free. Usually a hand equipped with a gauntlet or a spiked gauntlet is considered to be free but is this the case with spells with somatic components? I'm going to count on this on my next character so please answer... No armor causes divine spells to fail. Regardless of somatic components, only arcane spells incur the possibility of failure in this way. This is why it is called "Arcane Spell Failure" under the armor's stat entry, not simply "Spell Failure". Zevox
Snommelp 12-25-05, 05:58 PM	Silly question: is there a way to make sword-chucks (that won't cost an outrageous amount of credits)? I was thinking maybe spiked chain, shortswords or longswords, and rope or chain to connect the weapons together. Or maybe just a couple of swords tied together with rope.... Possible? Plausible? Possible without me getting into a lot of trouble for acting like an idiot?
Macbrea 12-25-05, 06:49 PM	The suggestion from the tips and tactics article about manipulating the Battlefield was: Caltrops (Player's Handbook, page 126): Caltrops are easily acquired, fairly cheap at 1 gp per bag, and not that cumbersome for most characters since they weigh only 2 pounds. If you have time to gather them up again after a fight, they might even be reusable. Scattering a bag of caltrops is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. You might need to take them out so that you can use them, though. This is a move action that does provoke attacks of opportunity (see page 143 in the Player's Handbook). The caltrops might halve a foe's movement or perhaps simply cause an opponent to avoid a specific square. The latter tactic works better with reasonably intelligent foes who recognize the impediment and might choose to avoid it. Both lend you a bit more control over movement on the field. It is not an official source that we use. But it might lead you in the correct direction.
Wind 12-25-05, 06:56 PM	Silly question: is there a way to make sword-chucks (that won't cost an outrageous amount of credits)? I was thinking maybe spiked chain, shortswords or longswords, and rope or chain to connect the weapons together. Or maybe just a couple of swords tied together with rope.... Possible? Plausible? Possible without me getting into a lot of trouble for acting like an idiot? Mmhhh...no.
NiQil 12-25-05, 08:01 PM	Silly question: is there a way to make sword-chucks (that won't cost an outrageous amount of credits)? I was thinking maybe spiked chain, shortswords or longswords, and rope or chain to connect the weapons together. Or maybe just a couple of swords tied together with rope.... Possible? Plausible? Possible without me getting into a lot of trouble for acting like an idiot? Methinks the easiest way to do it would just be to use a two-bladed sword (with the appropriate exotic weapon proficiency, of course), and then just describe them as sword-chucks....and include some text to treat as a two-bladed sword. Kinda like what people do making up races or mounts that say "treat as such and such".
Snommelp 12-25-05, 10:25 PM	Methinks the easiest way to do it would just be to use a two-bladed sword (with the appropriate exotic weapon proficiency, of course), and then just describe them as sword-chucks....and include some text to treat as a two-bladed sword. Kinda like what people do making up races or mounts that say "treat as such and such". I suppose that would be the best course... all right, it's decided. Once my druid has run her course (I'm not planning on taking her all the way to the top), I'm making Fighter from 8-Bit Theater.
nightbanegod 12-25-05, 11:35 PM	JUST YOU WAIT... before long... somebody is going to have to deal with COGLINE!!!! my ECL 7 character with ONLY TWO .... thats right 2 .... HP!!!!!!! yall are not even gonna see what hit ya...he will be effectively a 9th lvl caster in any class that grants casting...YAY!!!!!!
Snommelp 12-26-05, 12:26 AM	JUST YOU WAIT... before long... somebody is going to have to deal with COGLINE!!!! my ECL 7 character with ONLY TWO .... thats right 2 .... HP!!!!!!! yall are not even gonna see what hit ya...he will be effectively a 9th lvl caster in any class that grants casting...YAY!!!!!! :uh-huh: ...HOW??? And also: your character will have two kinds of fight. He will dominate, or he will die in round one. That is my prediction for every single fight.
Vathelokai 12-26-05, 12:46 AM	Silly question: is there a way to make sword-chucks (that won't cost an outrageous amount of credits)? I was thinking maybe spiked chain, shortswords or longswords, and rope or chain to connect the weapons together. Or maybe just a couple of swords tied together with rope.... Possible? Plausible? Possible without me getting into a lot of trouble for acting like an idiot? Just so everyone gets the joke... http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a327/Vathelokai/8bit-theatre/sword-chuck.jpg http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a327/Vathelokai/8bit-theatre/2fisted-monkey.jpg http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a327/Vathelokai/8bit-theatre/rock-giant.jpg Just go read it (http://www.nuklearpower.com/archive.php) from the begining.
lonewolf 12-26-05, 02:13 PM	If I quest for a template, do I need all required credits on week 1 of the quest or is it enough if I have them by week 3?
TelinArtho 12-26-05, 03:12 PM	While its advisable to have them ahead of time - Cat has allowed some people to go slightly negative in such an event from time to time. You might try PMing him with the details and just make sure that you get enough credits. You'll need 3 for the quest and then 4*LA credits for the template added. If you are looking for a quest lord, just let me know - as I'm always willing to do one.
Dracazar 12-26-05, 06:03 PM	Hey, I have this dubt: A mage with Invisibilty may draw a scroll and read it? Or the scroll is invisible? Thanks
Pittbull 12-26-05, 06:13 PM	Hey, I have this dubt: A mage with Invisibilty may draw a scroll and read it? Or the scroll is invisible? Thanks We allow this since the beginning of the CoCo, I don't know if there is a rule-source, but it has been aproved many times.
Cerebus13 12-26-05, 08:01 PM	Hey, I have this dubt: A mage with Invisibilty may draw a scroll and read it? Or the scroll is invisible? ThanksIllusions don't affect yourself, only others.Illusion Illusion spells deceive the senses or minds of others. They cause people to see things that are not there, not see things that are there, hear phantom noises, or remember things that never happened.
MindWandererB 12-26-05, 10:26 PM	I have a question regarding free activities. Do they occur during the week before or after the fight? I ask because I want to mini-quest for my animal companion for next level, and I want to know whether I start training it the same week I get it or the following week, and whether any training done during a week can be used in that week's fight.
TelinArtho 12-26-05, 11:53 PM	Free activities occur in the week that they are posted. So if you craft an item - it is available to you in the fight that week - because you finish it in one day. If you train an animal, while that animal is available to you, the trick you are training it with is not available until the following week (because it is a linked activity - you can't use it until it is properly linked). This is not an official response - so an elder could prove me wrong here...
Warclone 12-27-05, 02:48 AM	I just finished a All vs All 3 person fight. Can someone link me to where I can find out how to deal with the rewards?
Snommelp 12-27-05, 02:57 AM	I just finished a All vs All 3 person fight. Can someone link me to where I can find out how to deal with the rewards? Here. I was looking for special rules for rewarding the team fight I just finished; I can't find any, but All vs. All is there.
Warclone 12-27-05, 04:03 AM	Here. I was looking for special rules for rewarding the team fight I just finished; I can't find any, but All vs. All is there. Thanks for the link. Regarding the team fight I believe the rewards are the same as if a 1v1 fight (thats how it was for the team fight I was in last week). I got 900gp/900xp for winning (ECL3).
Vathelokai 12-27-05, 04:31 AM	Secret: At 1st level and every two levels higher than 1st (3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th), the loremaster chooses one secret from the table below. Her level plus Intelligence modifier determines the total number of secrets she can choose. She can’t choose the same secret twice.I was looking into loremaster, and I'm trying to figure out how the bonus secrets work. here (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/loremaster.html) is the loremaster page. It says "level +int mod", but it dosn't specify if they mean prestige class level, or total class levels, or possibly ECL. Anyone have a rule link that clarifies this?
MindWandererB 12-27-05, 04:43 AM	I was looking into loremaster, and I'm trying to figure out how the bonus secrets work. here (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/loremaster.html) is the loremaster page. It says "level +int mod", but it dosn't specify if they mean prestige class level, or total class levels, or possibly ECL. Anyone have a rule link that clarifies this?I don't have a link for you, but unless specified, "level" always means class level.
Altaris13 12-27-05, 08:27 AM	We allow this since the beginning of the CoCo, I don't know if there is a rule-source, but it has been aproved many times. That's correct. All items you had on you when you become invisibile remain so unless you drop the item.
NiQil 12-27-05, 10:09 AM	I don't have a link for you, but unless specified, "level" always means class level. Actually, this is incorrect. Take a look at this quote from the description of the barbarian's rage: The increase in Constitution increases the barbarian’s hit points by 2 points per level Level, in this case, has always been used to refer to total levels in all classes here, not level in the barbarian class only. If it means class level for a certain class, it will say so. I don't recall, off hand, ever seeing an entry that meant levels in one class only that referred to it strictly as level, and did not specify in some way that it was talking about those class levels only.
Ayrynthyn 12-27-05, 10:47 AM	but i think it's appropriate when talking about the Lore master secrets here. You can choose one secret at 1st level and then 1 each at 3, 5, 7 and 9. that's 5 secrets you can max out on. At 1st level and every two levels higher than 1st (3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th), the loremaster chooses one secret from the table below. Her level plus Intelligence modifier determines the total number of secrets she can choose. She can’t choose the same secret twice. if ECL was what they were talking about, the INT modifier part would be moot. You'd need to be 7th level at a minimum to have the requirments handled to even take the prestige class. In this case i'd go with the safer bet that they're referring to Levels in lore master [Lore Master Levels + INT modifier = Max Secrets known or 5... which ever is lower]
Vathelokai 12-27-05, 11:25 AM	Now, Loremaster question #2: when it says int. modifier, do you think they are talking about the total modifier (with enhancements, inherents, insights, etc.), or just the base modifier from the unmodified stat?
NiQil 12-27-05, 11:28 AM	Now, Loremaster question #2: when it says int. modifier, do you think they are talking about the total modifier (with enhancements, inherents, insights, etc.), or just the base modifier from the unmodified stat? When referring to an ability modifier, unless otherwise stated, you always add in any bonuses you have in that ability. So bonuses gained from a tomb or a headband of intellect are included.
Pitlords 12-27-05, 12:33 PM	NEXT PAIRINGS POSTPONED! @all: Due to the Christmas week many fights are still unfinished. Since this is an exceptional week, all deadlines are postponed by 1 day. That means [LATE] penalties apply on wednesday 8 AM GMT (in ~13 hours) and I will remove every currently assigned [LATE] tag (I haven't assigned late penalties yet). Pairings will be postponed by a day. That means the editing deadline now is Thursday 7 PM GMT. I will roll pairings at that time or a bit later that day. Please spread the word. Caterane
NiQil 12-27-05, 01:32 PM	Do synergy bonuses given from different skills stack? For instance, a character has 10 ranks in Bluff and 7 ranks in Sense motive. Each of those (by themselves) give a +2 synergy to Diplomacy. Does the character get a total +4 synergy to Diplomacy?
lonewolf 12-27-05, 01:42 PM	Do synergy bonuses given from different skills stack? For instance, a character has 10 ranks in Bluff and 7 ranks in Sense motive. Each of those (by themselves) give a +2 synergy to Diplomacy. Does the character get a total +4 synergy to Diplomacy? Yes they do.
Snommelp 12-27-05, 01:44 PM	Do synergy bonuses given from different skills stack? For instance, a character has 10 ranks in Bluff and 7 ranks in Sense motive. Each of those (by themselves) give a +2 synergy to Diplomacy. Does the character get a total +4 synergy to Diplomacy? Yes. I have no rules to back it up, but yes.
Altaris13 12-27-05, 03:10 PM	Yes they do. Yeah, my group and I've always allowed them to stack too since the rules don't say anything about it.
Guildlords 12-27-05, 03:50 PM	I've replaced the Shield Legends with Buildings. They represent the Base of Operations of the Guilds. Here's the map: http://www.caterane.de/CoCo/Karten/Gladius-City-Conquest.jpg @Guildmasters: Please keep in mind to look for a substitute Guildmaster; a second in command. Thanks.
Ayrynthyn 12-27-05, 04:40 PM	Yeah, my group and I've always allowed them to stack too since the rules don't say anything about it. ...i beleive there is a cite that expressly says that they do stack, otherwise the "Same Named Bonus don't stack" rule would apply. We play that they do stack as well, and i think i recall seeing something somewhere... i cant seem to locate it just now :/
SoulLord 12-27-05, 05:33 PM	Do synergy bonuses given from different skills stack? For instance, a character has 10 ranks in Bluff and 7 ranks in Sense motive. Each of those (by themselves) give a +2 synergy to Diplomacy. Does the character get a total +4 synergy to Diplomacy? from the srd Skill Synergy It’s possible for a character to have two skills that work well together. In general, having 5 or more ranks in one skill gives the character a +2 bonus on skill checks with each of its synergistic skills, as noted in the skill description. In some cases, this bonus applies only to specific uses of the skill in question, and not to all checks. Some skills provide benefits on other checks made by a character, such as those checks required to use certain class features.
Ayrynthyn 12-27-05, 05:48 PM	all that's saying is that Bluff provides a +2 synergy to Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sleight of Hand checks, as well as on Disguise. All 4 of those skills get a +2 just from having 5 ranks in Bluff... that's different than saying the +2 i get from having 5 ranks in Bluff, 5 ranks in Sense Motive, and 5 ranks in K:Noblility Royalty all stack to give me +6 to my Diplomacy... no, there's something else that explicitly says they stack. unless of course im wrong ;)
SoulLord 12-27-05, 06:05 PM	How are we handling ability increases to inteligence, skill points and magic items that increase int. lets say elf so no extra skill points wiz with 20 int at lvl 3 +5 sp for inteligence +2 for class = 7 sp wiz with 21 int & +1 headband at lvl 4th +5 or +6 sp for inteligence? +2 for class = +7 or +8sp? wiz with 22 int & +2 headband at lvl 8? +6 or +7 sp for inteligence? +2 for class = +8 or +9sp?
Skojar 12-27-05, 06:06 PM	Please note that in 3.5 there is no such thing as a 'synergy bonus.' Instead, you get a +2 bonus (unnamed) due to synergy. As unnamed bonuses, these stack. I have to think this cheange was intentional to eliminate the question...though obviously it didn't work very well.
NiQil 12-27-05, 06:12 PM	Please note that in 3.5 there is no such thing as a 'synergy bonus.' Instead, you get a +2 bonus (unnamed) due to synergy. As unnamed bonuses, these stack. I have to think this cheange was intentional to eliminate the question...though obviously it didn't work very well. I'll be damned....yer right. They are unnamed. At least now we know why they stack.
Ariel23 12-28-05, 12:56 AM	How are we handling ability increases to inteligence, skill points and magic items that increase int. lets say elf so no extra skill points wiz with 20 int at lvl 3 +5 sp for inteligence +2 for class = 7 sp wiz with 21 int & +1 headband at lvl 4th +5 or +6 sp for inteligence? +2 for class = +7 or +8sp? wiz with 22 int & +2 headband at lvl 8? +6 or +7 sp for inteligence? +2 for class = +8 or +9sp? I haven't seen any source which allows enhancement bonuses to Intelligence to grant bonus skill points, and I think I've seen one which says specifically that you don't. Regardless, INT is not like Constitution--raising your INT does not retroactively give you any bonus Skill Points. Being Feebleminded does not lower your skill points to 1 per level. Your examples above assume that your first level Elf Wizard had a +1 or +2 Headband of Intellect, which is impossible. Also, it's worth noting that a +1 Headband of Intellect would require credits to purchase (or any +1 attribute item).
Iced 12-28-05, 02:30 AM	Enhancement bonuses to intelligence do NOT grant bonus skill points though they do affect the modifiers on existing ones. I forget where I read it exactly, but it's in the SRD. A question of my own about a house rule here - My character has five castable spell levels per match. If he cast invisibllity there's two. If he then casts web there's an additional two leaving him with only one. If I use rhat spell level in say a magic missile, can I use the recall power of a pearl of power 1 to replace my expended spell level and then use another prepared spell to cast say a shocking grasp? Also does shocking grasp break invisibility when you cast it, or when it's discharged. I believe it's when it's discharged, but it'll have an effect on my tactics if I'm wrong. Also does holding the charge of a touch spell allow you to remain invisible if you cast the spell beforehand? thanks, ~Iced
Guildmaster (TAO) 12-28-05, 03:56 AM	Enhancement bonuses to intelligence do NOT grant bonus skill points though they do affect the modifiers on existing ones. I forget where I read it exactly, but it's in the SRD. A question of my own about a house rule here - My character has five castable spell levels per match. If he cast invisibllity there's two. If he then casts web there's an additional two leaving him with only one. If I use rhat spell level in say a magic missile, can I use the recall power of a pearl of power 1 to replace my expended spell level and then use another prepared spell to cast say a shocking grasp? Also does shocking grasp break invisibility when you cast it, or when it's discharged. I believe it's when it's discharged, but it'll have an effect on my tactics if I'm wrong. Also does holding the charge of a touch spell allow you to remain invisible if you cast the spell beforehand? thanks, ~IcedIt has been ruled (ask Huan about it) that use of a pearl of power returns the spell to memory and returns one spell lv. So if you had 6 levels available, then cast fly, and 3 shocking grasps, you could use three pearl of power 1st to regain 3 spell levels and cast fireball. Casting shocking grasp does not break invisibilty, only attacking with it. If it discharges on a rock but not an enemy, then that wouldn't break your invis. You can cast spells on yourself all day without breaking invis. You can even cast cure spells on all of your allies without breaking invis. It only drops immediately after making an direct attack, or casting a spell with the enemy in the area of effect and hit by the spell. (so if you cast bless, and the enemy is in the area, it does not end the invis because it does not effect the enemy, but if you cast solid fog and the enemy is in the area, invis ends - at least that's how I understand it).
Iced 12-28-05, 05:13 AM	It has been ruled (ask Huan about it) that use of a pearl of power returns the spell to memory and returns one spell lv. So if you had 6 levels available, then cast fly, and 3 shocking grasps, you could use three pearl of power 1st to regain 3 spell levels and cast fireball. Casting shocking grasp does not break invisibilty, only attacking with it. If it discharges on a rock but not an enemy, then that wouldn't break your invis. You can cast spells on yourself all day without breaking invis. You can even cast cure spells on all of your allies without breaking invis. It only drops immediately after making an direct attack, or casting a spell with the enemy in the area of effect and hit by the spell. (so if you cast bless, and the enemy is in the area, it does not end the invis because it does not effect the enemy, but if you cast solid fog and the enemy is in the area, invis ends - at least that's how I understand it). Awesome! That really helps out Marcos the Black and saves me the headache of expendables, well... mostly. Thanks for the help! ~Iced
Pitlords 12-28-05, 06:03 AM	It has been ruled (ask Huan about it) that use of a pearl of power returns the spell to memory and returns one spell lv. So if you had 6 levels available, then cast fly, and 3 shocking grasps, you could use three pearl of power 1st to regain 3 spell levels and cast fireball. This is not correct. You can only recall a 1st level spell with a 1st lvl pearl and it must be one you've previously cast.
Vathelokai 12-28-05, 07:00 AM	This is not correct. You can only recall a 1st level spell with a 1st lvl pearl and it must be one you've previously cast. The pearls recall the spell, not cast it again. If they do not replace the spell level/fight, then they would be utterly worthless. If they do replace the spell level, but you have to cast the same spell again, then everyone has been using them wrong for as long as I've been here.
Caterane 12-28-05, 08:01 AM	Why is it utterly useless? You can recall a 1st lvl spell you have previously cast once per day for 1000 gp. That's not bad for that price. Your proposed application would not be what the item description says and a house rule. Remember: spell levels don't exist outside the coco. They're just an abstract way to control the power of spellcasters. Using a 1st lvl pearl and sacrifice a 2nd lvl spell (ie 2 unused spell levels) to cast a Fireball is not possible and not what the item is doing.
Vathelokai 12-28-05, 08:11 AM	Pearl of Power: This seemingly normal pearl of average size and luster is a potent aid to all spellcasters who prepare spells (clerics, druids, rangers, paladins, and wizards). Once per day on command, a pearl of power enables the possessor to recall any one spell that she had prepared and then cast. The spell is then prepared again, just as if it had not been cast. The spell must be of a particular level, depending on the pearl. Different pearls exist for recalling one spell per day of each level from 1st through 9th and for the recall of two spells per day (each of a different level, 6th or lower).I highlighted my point. If it is recalled completely, then the spell level is returned as well. There is no rule in the pearl description that says you have to cast that spell again; you just get the spell slot back. I say useless because what I think you are saying is that the pearl returns the spell to memory but does not replace the spell/fight; therefore if you have 3 spells/fight, then cast 3 magic missles, then use a pearl of power, you would have the spells returned to memory, but could not cast them because you would hav 0/3 spell levels left for the fight. Am I miss understanding you?
Caterane 12-28-05, 08:18 AM	Ah ok, I know what you mean. Well, in some kind of meaning it also replaces the spell level but you are not free to use that spell level like you wish. If you recall magic missile, you can cast this magic missile for free again (even at 0 SL). You could not however recall magic missile and cast shocking grasp instead.
Altaris13 12-28-05, 08:28 AM	Ah ok, I know what you mean. Well, in some kind of meaning it also replaces the spell level but you are not free to use that spell level like you wish. If you recall magic missile, you can cast this magic missile for free again (even at 0 SL). You could not however recall magic missile and cast shocking grasp instead. Then that needs to be stated loud and clear for all to see in the rules FAQ. Because we have been doing the exact thing that Vath mentioned. Cast a spell (or three) and then use Pearl of Power to replace the "spell slot per arena fight" that was used so that we may then cast a different spell with that slot. That is how it has been used since I started here a few months ago.
Vathelokai 12-28-05, 08:31 AM	Ah ok, I know what you mean. Well, in some kind of meaning it also replaces the spell level but you are not free to use that spell level like you wish. If you recall magic missile, you can cast this magic missile for free again (even at 0 SL). You could not however recall magic missile and cast shocking grasp instead. I second Altaris13's statements. I would prefer it to go to an elder vote (since I don't see it as unbalancing) but if you make a rule, then post it loud and clear.
LLMadCow 12-28-05, 08:36 AM	I highlighted my point. If it is recalled completely, then the spell level is returned as well. There is no rule in the pearl description that says you have to cast that spell again; you just get the spell slot back. I say useless because what I think you are saying is that the pearl returns the spell to memory but does not replace the spell/fight; therefore if you have 3 spells/fight, then cast 3 magic missles, then use a pearl of power, you would have the spells returned to memory, but could not cast them because you would hav 0/3 spell levels left for the fight. Am I miss understanding you? Cat can chime in on this one if he wants to, but as long as we have been using the Spell Level concept, my understanding has been like this: If Joe the Magnificent (Human Wizard Lvl 3, Int 16) has the ability to cast 1 (of 3) Spell Level's, then what is required is that he has 2 (of 3) Spell Level's left at the end of the fight. So, if he owns 2 Pearls of Power (Lvl 1), then he can ultimately cast 3 Level 1 Spells, since he will still have his 2 (of 3) Spell Level's left at the end of the fight. Now, if we decide that a Pearl of Power functions in such a manner that it adds to your spells per day, one may be required to have an additional 3 pearls before it does any good and this is akin to nerfing the item all together. Make sense? LLMC
Altaris13 12-28-05, 08:36 AM	Heh. I just sent you a PM Vath, to TAO account. I figured since I was pointing it out Cerebrus for his FAQ thread, I'd send it to you for your guild thread too.
LLMadCow 12-28-05, 08:55 AM	Then that needs to be stated loud and clear for all to see in the rules FAQ. Because we have been doing the exact thing that Vath mentioned. Cast a spell (or three) and then use Pearl of Power to replace the "spell slot per arena fight" that was used so that we may then cast a different spell with that slot. That is how it has been used since I started here a few months ago. The problem with using the Pearl of Power this way is that it is expressly intended for use by spellcasters who prepare spells (clerics, druids, rangers, paladins, and wizards). If we were to allow the flexibility of allowing them to change out spells, then this turns them into Sorcerers. However, I understand where you are going. At further glance, I may have to disagree with Cat on this one. As I stated above, we are treating all spellcasters as though they are required to have 2/3 of their Spell Level’s remaining at the end of the fight, and the Pearl of Power returns the previously cast spell to memory, then what we have is a situation that works like this: Joe the Magnificent begins the fight with: Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp and Obscuring Mist. (3/3) JtM then casts Magic Missile at his enemy. (2/3 remaining – no more spells can be cast.) JtM uses his Pearl of Power. (3/3 remaining – can cast any 1 of his prepared spells.) JtM then casts Shocking Grasp at his first opportunity. This should be perfectly legal. It does allow flexibility, but that is what it would do in a regular game. Sitting around the table for a game, JtM can cast ALL of his spells every day, so when he has no spells left and uses his Pearl of Power, he can choose any one of those to be able to re-cast, but the point is here that he can pick which one. If he had only cast 1 spell and used the Pearl of Power, then he would return to a state of being able to cast any of his available spells. This is where the issue comes into play. I am in favor of treating the use of the Pearl of Power like this: Once used, it returns the value of the Spell Level Pool to +[Level of Pearl] and the spellcaster can then cast as they were originally allowed to when at that level of their Spell Level Pool. So, there you have it. (Who missed the Size 7? Come on, be honest....)
Vathelokai 12-28-05, 09:02 AM	okay, okay.... I missed the size 7. You happy now?
Papapeperoni 12-28-05, 09:17 AM	Boohoo. Lost from a spellcaster. Ah well. Do mage armor and shield stack? --Papapeperoni, God of Pizza's
Vathelokai 12-28-05, 09:29 AM	Boohoo. Lost from a spellcaster. Ah well. Do mage armor and shield stack? --Papapeperoni, God of Pizza's Yes they do. However, inertial armor and mage armor don't stack since they are both armor bonuses. If someone has a shield already, and casts shield, then only one of the shields works. The only time things get wierd is incorporeal attacks vs. force effects.
Altaris13 12-28-05, 09:34 AM	@Madcow: that is exactly what I'm saying, and how I've seen it used by players (in tactics) and adjudicated by pitlords. This method does make sense in this environment.
Erithmu 12-28-05, 09:48 AM	Quick question on pricing w/ Deepcrystal and Masterwork qualities: Do you have to pay for both ... EX: Deepcrystal Comp. Longbow (0str) 1100 gp = 100gp for longbow +1000 deepcrystal - do I have to pay the 300 for the masterwork quality?
Guildmaster (TAO) 12-28-05, 09:52 AM	Quick question on pricing w/ Deepcrystal and Masterwork qualities: Do you have to pay for both ... EX: Deepcrystal Comp. Longbow (0str) 1100 gp = 100gp for longbow +1000 deepcrystal - do I have to pay the 300 for the masterwork quality? You only have to pay for deep crystal. It says in the deep cry. description that it is like mundane crystal. In the mundane crystal description it says that crystal counts as masterwork.
TelinArtho 12-28-05, 10:26 AM	Ah ok, I know what you mean. Well, in some kind of meaning it also replaces the spell level but you are not free to use that spell level like you wish. If you recall magic missile, you can cast this magic missile for free again (even at 0 SL). You could not however recall magic missile and cast shocking grasp instead. I disagree that this should be how it works - pearls have been used as described by others since at least June when I started coming here. To change it now would undoubtably make some builds completely different. If that is the way that this is going to be ruled for the future, then I request that this be stated explicitly in the house rules. But before that happens - I would much rather see a community vote on the matter (rather than a GM edict).
NiQil 12-28-05, 11:17 AM	I've replaced the Shield Legends with Buildings. They represent the Base of Operations of the Guilds. Here's the map: http://www.caterane.de/CoCo/Karten/Gladius-City-Conquest.jpg @Guildmasters: Please keep in mind to look for a substitute Guildmaster; a second in command. Thanks. Ok....I have to ask. When people look at this picture, do they see shields on the picture or do they see buildings? I am only seeing shields, and Cat keeps tellin' me I am full of it, so I need to know if it is just me that has the problem (on two seperate computers), or if others see the shields.
Vathelokai 12-28-05, 11:18 AM	Pixie Question: Pixies can use Special Arrows (ex) as described in their monster entry. I've not seen any pixies use them in the arena. Do you have to pay to get these arrows? Can pixies just manifest them?
Papapeperoni 12-28-05, 11:29 AM	Question: How many credits do I have? I haven't lorded anything, no violations and 1 character. Thanks. --Papapeperoni, God of Pizza's
SoulLord 12-28-05, 11:38 AM	Unless you have earned some by pitlording, writing stories, denouncing violations, or being your birthday then none.
TroubleWolf 12-28-05, 11:52 AM	Ok....I have to ask. When people look at this picture, do they see shields on the picture or do they see buildings? I am only seeing shields, and Cat keeps tellin' me I am full of it, so I need to know if it is just me that has the problem (on two seperate computers), or if others see the shields. I do not see any shields. I do see several buildings, however. And a few ships in the water.
Guildmaster (EYE) 12-28-05, 12:03 PM	Ok....I have to ask. When people look at this picture, do they see shields on the picture or do they see buildings? I am only seeing shields, and Cat keeps tellin' me I am full of it, so I need to know if it is just me that has the problem (on two seperate computers), or if others see the shields. i see buildings as well, you can try and clear your internet cache and see if that resolves your issue.
NiQil 12-28-05, 12:17 PM	i see buildings as well, you can try and clear your internet cache and see if that resolves your issue. Good call....that seemed to do the trick.
Dracazar 12-28-05, 12:24 PM	May a druid create a Brooch of Shielding (with the Craft Wondrous Items feat)? Brooch of Shielding: This appears to be a piece of silver or gold jewelry used to fasten a cloak or cape. In addition to this mundane task, it can absorb magic missiles of the sort generated by spell or spell-like ability. A brooch can absorb up to 101 points of damage from magic missiles before it melts and becomes useless. Faint abjuration; CL 1st; Craft Wondrous Item, shield; Price 1,500 gp.
TelinArtho 12-28-05, 12:26 PM	Not without having access to the shield spell.
Dracazar 12-28-05, 12:27 PM	Any idea on how to have access to the Shield spell (without multiclassing)?
TelinArtho 12-28-05, 12:31 PM	Without multiclassing - you can't. On the positive side, it's not that expensive to just purchase and it essentially will protect you from then on (because no one will waste the magic missiles on someone who can't be hurt by them...).
Vathelokai 12-28-05, 12:32 PM	Any idea on how to have access to the Shield spell (without multiclassing)? Nope. You have to be able to prepare the spell to craft an item with it.
SoulLord 12-28-05, 12:49 PM	Any idea on how to have access to the Shield spell (without multiclassing)? Get a ring of spell storing and have a wizard cast shield on it Now you can cast shield yourself. get your Use Magic Device up and buy a scroll of shield Brought to you by the TAO
Ayrynthyn 12-28-05, 12:54 PM	Nope. You have to be able to prepare the spell to craft an item with it. is this a CoCo house rule, because... Creating Magic Items (pp2) Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).
Ariel23 12-28-05, 02:12 PM	Pearls of Power 1) If Pearls of Power worked like that, why would you ever buy a 2nd level pearl for 4,000 gp when you could just buy two for 2,000 gp? Why buy a 9th level pearl for 81,000 gp [!] when you could just buy nine 1st level pearls for 9,000 gp? On top of that, a 9th level SRD pearl only functions to return a 9th level spell to you. Nine 1st level "CoCo" pearls could return 9 1st, 7 1st and 1 2nd, 6 1st and 1 3rd, etc (it's a very long et cetera). 2) You are trying to turn a wizard into a sorcerer with all the advantages of a wizard and none of the disadvantages of a sorcerer through the use of a relatively cheap magic item. 3) If this vote allows pearls of power to be read as "adds the equivalent spell level back into the character's Spell Level/Day pool," then pearls of power will also have to be made available to spontaneous casters, i.e., bards and sorcerers. 4) A pearl of power will never be useless. It is 1,000 gp, the standard cost for a spell level 1 miscellaneous magic item....or is it? This item takes up no body slot, nor does it even adhere to the body affinity rules. You don't have to pull out the item, nor hold the item, nor do we even necessarily say that you couldn't use it while held, assuming that you could cast a spell without components at that point. No space limitation5 = Multiply entire cost by 2 5 An item that does not take up one of the spaces on a body costs double.[Example Ring of Spell Storing (18,000) vs Ioun Stone of Spell Storing (36,000)] (Note: 3 spell levels for 36,000 vs. proposed pearl of power for 3,000!!) WotC refuses to address why this rule was ignored for the Pearl of Power, nor how they arrived at a Ring of Wizardry for 20,000, 40,000, 70,000, and 110,000 (4th level) when the Ring of Wizardry takes up a valuable ring slot. This is why in pnp D&D, wizards who find a Ring of Wizardry should always sell it and buy Pearls instead. In CoCo, you could increase the truth of that statement by a magnitude of 100. 5) Let's say a level 8 Wizard with Int 22 memorized the following spells [and 11 spell levels per day in the arena]: Wizard abilities: -Spells per day: 6/5/3/2 Spells Memorized 1: Shield, Mage Armor, Ray of Enfeeblement, Magic Missile, Magic Missile, Expeditious Retreat 2: Invisibility, False Life, Mirror Image, Hideous Laughter, Hideous Laughter 3: Dispel Magic, Lightning Bolt, Fly 4: Greater Invisibility, PolymorphThat's 11 spell levels. Let's say he buys 5 pearls of power (1st level of course, because buying any other level would be utter stupidity), you are saying he now has 16 spell levels? In CoCo, this [i]Wizard can now cast Magic Missile once in the arena, and then use 5 1st level pearls of power to cast Lightning Bolt five times?! Again, who is going to be buying 2nd and 3rd level pearls of power? In case it's not clear, my "vote" is that a PoP may only be used to re-cast any spell that has already been cast during the fight (or as a pre-buff). If that vote fails and the spell-level side wins, then my sorcerer will be using CoCo pearls the next day.
TelinArtho 12-28-05, 02:22 PM	You misunderstand how the pearls have worked so far, so let's clear that up right now: 9 pearls of power (1st) can recall a total of 9 1st level spells (and their associated spell levels - but never a 9th level spell). Ex: An 18th wizard has 100SL and cast all of them of them including 1 9th level spell and 9 1sts and still has 1 9th level spell (in his memorized spells). He has 9 pearls of power (1st). He can spend 9 standard actions recalling each of the 9 1st level spells that he has already cast, and cast 1 more 9th level spell. Or he can recall the 1st level spells individually and cast them. If he had a 9th level pearl of power he could recall a cast 9th level spell and then cast (for example) a 4th and a 5th level spell. ------------------------------- While pearls of power may be useful - they are not overly powerful unless you can afford the more expensive ones and they either a) cost an awful lot or b) take a long time to craft (a 5th level pearl would have you sit out for 4 weeks for instance) and a fair amount of xp (1000xp). Having 9 pearls of power (1st) is not reasonably done at the early levels and at later levels, they become almost useless.
Dracazar 12-28-05, 02:39 PM	As Ayrynthyn quoted Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed) May I fulfill the Shield spell requirement with an NPC service? I checked the House Rule List of the CoCo and found nothing that prohibits it
Dracazar 12-28-05, 02:43 PM	Please confirm this: If I buy a light armor for a small air elemental this is the only penalty: Nonproficient with Armor Worn: A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he or she is not proficient takes the armor’s (and/or shields’s) armor check penalty on attack rolls and on all Strength-based and Dexterity-based ability and skill checks. The penalty for nonproficiency with armor stacks with the penalty for nonprofiency with shields Thanks
Cerebus13 12-28-05, 03:35 PM	If you purchase a Powerstone or Scroll of a power/spell that has an XP cost on it, do you pay additional gold for the item? Currently the CoCo rules only have XP costs listed for the NPC spellcasting service (at 5 gp per 1 XP), but it is unclear if this applies to items as well.
SoulLord 12-28-05, 04:06 PM	Taxes: This is the basic income of a guild. Everytime a player character that belongs to that guild earns money in the various arena fights and on quests (i.e. not on Campaigns), the guild treasury gains 10% of his earnings. However, this money is not really lost to the PC! Obviously, the higher in level a member, the better the Tax income for a guild. The tax decreases by 1% per ally the PC owns, so a PC with a cohort and a warhorse only earns the guild 8%. Ignore tiny and smaller allies as well as non-combatants (like mules). Decimals are always rounded down Does the tax penalty apply for Class allies? for example Paladin Warhorse or druid Bear animal companion?
Macbrea 12-28-05, 04:10 PM	Class allies like Druid/Ranger Companion, Familiars and Paladin's Warhorses do not give an exp/gold penalty.
NiQil 12-28-05, 04:15 PM	Class allies like Druid/Ranger Companion, Familiars and Paladin's Warhorses do not give an exp/gold penalty. SoulLord isn't referring to fight rewards....he is asking about the guild earnings that is based on a tax of the players. @ SoulLord: As far as I know, class allies still earn a tax, if they are bigger than Tiny and/or are used as combatants. However, this inherently straps some guilds, such as the TLT and TAO (though not as much as TLT), along with the CEF. @ Guildlords: How about it? Are class allies counted as allies for tax purposes, or do they get an exemption like they do in the arena for gold/xp awards?
Ayrynthyn 12-28-05, 04:35 PM	As Ayrynthyn quoted May I fulfill the Shield spell requirement with an NPC service? I checked the House Rule List of the CoCo and found nothing that prohibits it What kind of services can I make use of? ... Spellcasting Service: Another much sought service are the arcane, divine, and psionic spells and powers that NPC spellcasters cast or manifest on the character. The basic cost for spellcasting service is 10 gp x the Spell's level x the Casterlevel the spell should have. If the spell has a material component, you must pay the additional cost. If the spell incurs an XP cost, you must pay an additional 5 gp per XP. There is one important restriction though: the spellcasting you pay for must not have a higher Casterlevel or Manifesterlevel than your ECL! The Blackmarket (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=396641) (also see below) offers a backdoor here; you can pay credits to purchase higher CL spells or powers at a rate of 1° per CL above your ECL. cough up 10gp and i dont see why not. However, since im ususally wrong, that would mean the answer is no.
Macbrea 12-28-05, 04:40 PM	cough up 10gp and i dont see why not. However, since im ususally wrong, that would mean the answer is no. Well, this might be alittle hard with the "You may enter the arena with effects running that have a duration of 16 hours or more, which we call Pre-Buffs." Given that above rule and shield spells 1 min/level. Your going to need a much high level caster to NPC cast for you.
Dracazar 12-28-05, 04:57 PM	Well, this might be alittle hard with the "You may enter the arena with effects running that have a duration of 16 hours or more, which we call Pre-Buffs." Given that above rule and shield spells 1 min/level. Your going to need a much high level caster to NPC cast for you. We are talking about a Shield spell to allow a Druid with craft wondrous item to create a Brooch of shielding. Unless someone have a quote from a rule that negate it, the Brooch of shielding for that druid would cost 750gp + 10gp and 60xp, ok?
Macbrea 12-28-05, 05:16 PM	Ah, sorry, in that case. The rules your looking for would be in the wonderous item creation section. If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require, nor are any XP costs inherent in a prerequisite spell incurred in the creation of the item. The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.) By that reading you couldn't do it with the assistance of another person. But, most DMs have a habit of house ruling that one.
Dracazar 12-28-05, 05:29 PM	Macbrea, there is also this quote from Ayrynthyn Originally Posted by DMG pg 282 Creating Magic Items (pp2) Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).
SoulLord 12-28-05, 05:54 PM	We are talking about a Shield spell to allow a Druid with craft wondrous item to create a Brooch of shielding. Unless someone have a quote from a rule that negate it, the Brooch of shielding for that druid would cost 750gp + 10gp and 60xp, ok? Actually a very minor detail but it would be +10gp for each day you require the caster's services a Brooch of shielding is 1,500 gp so in a regular setting it would take you at least a couple of days. Enchanting a wondrous item takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its price. To enchant a wondrous item, you must spend 1/25 of the item’s price in XP and use up raw materials costing half of this price You may craft items up to 1000 gp Marketprice without having to sit out. However, if you exceed that value, you cannot participate in any event for that week. Your character is still considered active and may not do any Free Activities that week so no action for the week 750gp +10gp +10 gp and 60xp
Ayrynthyn 12-28-05, 06:34 PM	i dont want to quibble over 10 gold, but you'd only need the NPC Spell casters services at the time required to cast the spell. He'd only need to cast it once. You work, You work, You work, the NPC does his thing and goes away, You work some more, you finish the item. but again... Typically when i understand a rule one way, the opposite is true, so don't get your hopes up on this one... :embarrass
SoulLord 12-28-05, 07:02 PM	If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require, nor are any XP costs inherent in a prerequisite spell incurred in the creation of the item. The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.) True
Cerebus13 12-28-05, 08:27 PM	If you purchase a Powerstone or Scroll of a power/spell that has an XP cost on it, do you pay additional gold for the item? Currently the CoCo rules only have XP costs listed for the NPC spellcasting service (at 5 gp per 1 XP), but it is unclear if this applies to items as well.Bump for an answer on this. -------------- Also, are we really allowing the use of the NPC spellcasting service for the crafting of Magic Items like Dracazar said earlier? If so that alters a lot of my build ideas...
Book5 12-28-05, 08:46 PM	Bump for an answer on this. -------------- Also, are we really allowing the use of the NPC spellcasting service for the crafting of Magic Items like Dracazar said earlier? If so that alters a lot of my build ideas... I am gonna say yeah - 5gp per 1xp - sounds like a conversion rate to me. My question.. can you donate the XP from your total? While a little "blood sacrifice" foot that bill? I have used that house rule... if it is a house rule and not a varient. :smirk: of course I didnt quote anything. now my real question: Regading making money with Tumble.. (A RAW phenomena) emphasis mine. I'm a bit confused. I didn't claim this because 1) Tumble is not on the list of skills (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6466576) from which money can be earned, and 2) I only have 4 ranks (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8029894&postcount=589) anyway. I'm not complaining, but I don't want to claim the gold each week, only to have it be taken away when someone realizes I shouldn't be getting it. Did this come from another source? Its in the skill description --> "Can be used as perform" wait.. checking.. umm.. "odd" Try Again: Usually no. An audience, once it has judged a tumbler as an uninteresting performer, is not receptive to repeat performances. May indeed be RAW wrong.. I though Slight of Hand and Tumble could both be used as performances. Is that missing from the SRD? or missing from .5? or something? Elder? OI - RAI obviously intended there to be a performance function. Like its missing a line of text or something. How else do you explain the try again? oh here it is! In addition to using the Perform skill, you can entertain people with sleight of hand, tumbling, tightrope walking, and spells (especially illusions). So its "as perform" ala perform. But my only question is: Is that 10+Cha+CL*ECL ... for spells? +2 for illusions? (Illusions MW Spellcraft perfromances? ... :idea: 10+spellcraft*ECL? for spellcasting entertainment? ) SO 2) Your right! My bad! Don't apply the added gp. Sorry! 1) If you cant use Tumble as a perfrom.. "teh silly" I think you can, but then it doesnt mention the spells deal either (me I forgot that spells refrence was even in there). Regardless of RAW, if it has a use besides making money, you can't use it to make money in the Core Coliseum. Armorsmithing, Poisonmaking, Alchemy, etc. can be used to create items useful in the arena, and so they can't be used to make money. The same is true with Tumble. Umm... slight of hand? (quickdraw, take items, etc) Im just going by the SRD here. Nice theory but it sounds like an oversight to me.. care to link me up to the original discussion? Never have been able to find the posts where these things got codified. Im curious if there was a persuasive argument vs. tumble or if it was simply lost in the living gladius cartwheels. hmmm Spellcraft as a perform skill. About as RAW as your gonna get for "performing with spells" I guess I should ask on the Tavern..
Snommelp 12-28-05, 09:38 PM	I see nothing in the Sleight of Hand skill that allows you to Quickdraw (that's what the Feat is for, and I see precious few skills that can replace feats). As for the discussion, I can't quote it for you, because it happened long ago. I can, however, quote the rules to you. Skills and Earning MoneyNot everyone was born as a gladiator. Many characters had to get their daily bread in another way, by using their talents and skills, and many continue to do so now. Once a week, as a Free Activity, you can use certain skills to earn extra money if you have at least 5 ranks in that skill. These skills are Sleight of Hand, all Perform skills, all Profession skills, and some Craft skillsx. You may only use one skill at a time to earn money! You earn (Take10+skill modifier)*ECL gold pieces in a week. The Pitlord mentions this extra income at the bottom of the fight along with the fight rewards, and adds them together. There is no need to link it seperately because you will already link it along with the fight. x: all Craft skills except Craft armorsmithing, weaponsmithing, bowmaking, poisonmaking, and alchemy. These skills already have a function in the CoCo (see below). The craft skills that are exceptions have other uses in the CoCo. So does Tumble, which was the original skill in question. Going back to Sleight of Hand, though, since you brought it up: yes, theoretically you could use it in the arena to steal items from your foe. It would be very difficult to pull off, though, and all you can do is "Lift a small object from a person," which limits your options severely. And of course lifting the item is more than likely going to provoke an AoO (the PHB says that skills which require an action Usually do). And also while you are taking a standard action to steal a small item, you are not attacking the armed gladiator who is standing right next to you. So I would say that Sleight of Hand really doesn't have a use in the arena; you can use it, certainly, in the same way that you can sing in the arena. It just won't do you any real good.
Macbrea 12-28-05, 10:07 PM	Actually, if you don't care about wether your opponent sees you at all. Which in the arena it doesn't matter. You may steal items from them as a free action. Let me quote the SRD a second. When you use this skill under close observation, your skill check is opposed by the observer’s Spot check. The observer’s success doesn’t prevent you from performing the action, just from doing it unnoticed. Any Sleight of Hand check normally is a standard action. However, you may perform a Sleight of Hand check as a free action by taking a -20 penalty on the check. An untrained Sleight of Hand check is simply a Dexterity check. Without actual training, you can’t succeed on any Sleight of Hand check with a DC higher than 10, except for hiding an object on your body. So, by that writeup of the rules as per the SRD. A person with 1 rank of sleight of hand may as a free action take 1 small item off their opponent as a free action every round that they are within reach of them and have a free hand. Their opponent will probably see them take the item but can do nothing about stopping the taking of the item except try to kill their opponent. Which they are already doing. The rules as written are kind of silly in that factor. All items taken by the opponent of course are returned at the end of the fight by the arena.
Snommelp 12-28-05, 10:44 PM	Yes, they can try to steal as a free action... it's effectively DC 40, though. DC 20 to take the item, a -20 penalty to your roll for trying it as a free action... and those aren't the rolls to avoid being seen, those are the rolls to actually take the item. It just so happens that whatever the roll is also functions as the Spot DC. So no, a character with one rank will not be stealing items as a free action. Not unless that character has godlike Dexterity. EDIT: A quote to back me up might help. If you try to take something from another creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check to obtain it. The opponent makes a Spot check to detect the attempt, opposed by the same Sleight of Hand check result you achieved when you tried to grab the item An opponent who succeeds on this check notices the attempt, regardless of whether you got the item. PHB page 82 or SRD in the Sleight of Hand skill description.
Book5 12-28-05, 11:05 PM	I see nothing in the Sleight of Hand skill that allows you to Quickdraw (that's what the Feat is for, and I see precious few skills that can replace feats). As for the discussion, I can't quote it for you, because it happened long ago. I can, however, quote the rules to you. rrr... ;) I will list some slight of hand skill quotes* A: However, you may perform a Sleight of Hand check as a free action by taking a –20 penalty on the check. B: Any Sleight of Hand check normally is a standard action. C: Your Sleight of Hand check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone observing you. combat analysis "Quicksdraw" by anyother name is still a free action son.. I mean snom. Things that are "standard actions" are almost always "combat" actions. You cant AoO what you cant see - such is the power of slight of hand. Im not trying to be all in a huff here but logically - "that not useful in the arena" applies more to most KS skills than slight of hand. Trust me, slight of hand would be way profitable If I could just keep what I stole, and I'll admit to being somewhat put out by that. NONETHELESS, I'm just clarifying my understanding. I thought it was Use perform.. perform says - use these things.. seems "reasonable" to me. im out! see ya in the morn!
Macbrea 12-28-05, 11:09 PM	Good point but that does bring up a neat build by 10th. Rogue 10 = +13 Dex 22 = +6 Deft Hands = +2 Bluff 5 ranks = +2 Third eye of slight of hand = +10 Gloves of Dexerity +6 = +6 Feat Skill Focus = +3 Skill Mastery = take 10 Total: 52 Gold per fight: 520gp
Snommelp 12-28-05, 11:30 PM	A: However, you may perform a Sleight of Hand check as a free action by taking a –20 penalty on the check. B: Any Sleight of Hand check normally is a standard action. C: Your Sleight of Hand check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone observing you. combat analysis "Quicksdraw" by anyother name is still a free action son.. I mean snom. Things that are "standard actions" are almost always "combat" actions. You cant AoO what you cant see - such is the power of slight of hand. Im not trying to be all in a huff here but logically - "that not useful in the arena" applies more to most KS skills than slight of hand. Trust me, slight of hand would be way profitable If I could just keep what I stole, and I'll admit to being somewhat put out by that. NONETHELESS, I'm just clarifying my understanding. I thought it was Use perform.. perform says - use these things.. seems "reasonable" to me. 1) A succesful steal can still be spotted; regardless, your attention is taken away from your opponent's flashing weapon, which is all that's needed for an AoO. Applying an oil to something draws an AoO. You can do it under your cloak if you want; it doesn't matter. Your opponent still can and most likely will attack you while your attention's elsewhere. 2) Quickdraw is the feat which allows you to draw a weapon as a free action or a concealed weapon as a move action. Sleight of Hand is the skill which allows you to potentially steal small items from other people. "A rose by any other name" does not apply here. 3) Sleight of Hand would indeed be more powerful if you could keep what you managed to steal; just as Sunder would be more powerful if objects stayed sundered and killing your foes would be much more potent if they stayed dead after the fight. There are houserules here as in any game, as much as we try to avoid them. You may as well fight against the idea of the nimbus as fight against losing the things you steal; you will get just as far. 4) It is understandable that you may have thought it was "use perform," but that does not change it from being what it is. You can use certain skills to make money in the CoCo, and any skill not on the list, you cannot. The skills which you cannot use have been defined as those which have other reasonable uses in the CoCo, such as Armorsmithing and Alchemy. Tumble falls into that list. 5) As I learned years ago from a debate coach, subtly disparaging remarks like "son" should be avoided; the intended effect is to subconsciously sway the audience into thinking that you must be right, because you are older and wiser, but inevitably the "kid" brings the subconscious into the conscious by pointing out the fallacy and then the audience turns on you. @ Macbrea: It's an interesting build. Note though that you can't keep what you steal in the arena, and if you focus that much on stealing, you'll suffer elsewhere. If you want to try it, though, look to Maven for some more ideas.
LLMadCow 12-29-05, 12:41 AM	i dont want to quibble over 10 gold, but you'd only need the NPC Spell casters services at the time required to cast the spell. He'd only need to cast it once. You work, You work, You work, the NPC does his thing and goes away, You work some more, you finish the item. but again... Typically when i understand a rule one way, the opposite is true, so don't get your hopes up on this one... :embarrass Okay, I have the answer that you do not want to hear, and it is not merely an issue of 10 gold. So, please sit back and enjoy the ride..... CREATING WONDROUS ITEMS The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.) So, what this tells us is that if you spend a week (7 Days) crafting an item, then it is going to cost you (Single Spell Casting Cost) x 7 Days. So, in this case, if the single casting cost is 10 gold, then it will cost you 70 gold for the spell casting portion of item creation. Make sense? So to further explore this and run the numbers, I'll throw another example out there. If the Wand in Question is a Wand of Bear's Endurance (4,500gp), then it works out like this: 2,250gp + [((Caster Level 3) x 20 gold = 60 gold) x (5 Weeks aka 35 Days) = 2,100gp] = 4,350gp + 180xp ... So, in this case, you end up saving 150gp at the expense of 180xp. Hardly worth it, IMHO. My numbers might be off somewhere, since I am tired and sleepy and do not feel like sorting through the CoCo rules, but I know that for EVERY day of creation, the spell has to be cast. So, enjoy. LLMC
Ariel23 12-29-05, 03:10 AM	From a discussion in the Dec 21 Battles thread, I was wondering if we might get a chart something like this (from someone more sophisticated than I) to go into the rules section on Allies, pt. I (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6466763): ALLIES PENALTY-SELF OPPONENT BONUS GUILD TAX COUNT TOWARD ALLY GAINS XP GOLD XP GOLD BREAK ALLY LIMITS XP SOURCE Druid N N Y Y Y N N Ranger Paladin Quest Leadership Thrall Purchased Trained Ally's Ally SPECIAL: Construct Dominate Animate Dead Etc. Please note: I'm not saying the "Druid" entry above is correct, it's just an example to give the general idea.
Dracazar 12-29-05, 03:52 AM	So, what this tells us is that if you spend a week (7 Days) crafting an item, then it is going to cost you (Single Spell Casting Cost) x 7 Days. So, in this case, if the single casting cost is 10 gold, then it will cost you 70 gold for the spell casting portion of item creation. Make sense? It is incorrect, the days of creation are 2 because the items costs 1500gp marketprice and the rule clearly say 1day/1000gp. So the cost is CasterLevel*SpellLevel*10gp*days => 1*1*10gp*2 = 20 gp Please tell me where to write this Item Creation (post/thread) because the rules say to link the activity and I'll create 2 magic items, I'm under the 7000gp (that is the max for 1 week). @Ariel23: Up for the chart!
Vathelokai 12-29-05, 04:36 AM	Bracelet of Friends: This silver charm bracelet has four charms upon it when created. The owner may designate one person known to him to be keyed to one charm. (This designation takes a standard action, but once done it lasts forever or until changed.) When a charm is grasped and the name of the keyed individual is spoken, that person is called to the spot (a standard action) along with his or her gear, as long as the owner and the called person are on the same plane. The keyed individual knows who is calling, and the bracelet of friends only functions on willing travelers. Once a charm is activated, it disappears. Charms separated from the bracelet are worthless. A bracelet found with fewer than four charms is worth 25% less for each missing charm. Strong conjuration; CL 15th; Craft Wondrous Item, refuge; Price 19,000 gp.Anyone think this is a legal item? Say I made one, then had all of my guild buddies linked to it, could I cast "Summon Vandalar"? If banned from the arena, could I still have one for use in quests? Could I quest to find creatures/NPCs who would be willing to wear the bracelet? On another note, can you craft a bracelet with fewer than 4 charms?
Dracazar 12-29-05, 05:40 AM	Suppose to have a Psion with a total of 9 power points, he can cast only 3 in arena, this is clear. What if he has a deep crystal weapon, the 2 power points needed to activate the crystal are shared with the 3 power points used to manifest powers or could be used from the remaining 6 power points? I'm pretty sure that those power points are shared with the 3 used to manifest, but just to be sure...
Usurpator 12-29-05, 07:20 AM	@Vathelokai I looked at the Bracelets of Friends and considered it an illegal item. Its cost is too prohibitive in the lower leagues, but once you get into the higher leagues, a fight would no longer be 'how good you build and tactics are', but more 'who has the most powerful friend'. Besides, it poses a whole bunch of other problems with writing tactics, awarding XP, using up expendables etc. etc. In my opinion it is unsuited to an Arena enviroment unless you restrict it. For example making your friend calling counting against your max. allies.
Cerebus13 12-29-05, 07:36 AM	Suppose to have a Psion with a total of 9 power points, he can cast only 3 in arena, this is clear. What if he has a deep crystal weapon, the 2 power points needed to activate the crystal are shared with the 3 power points used to manifest powers or could be used from the remaining 6 power points? I'm pretty sure that those power points are shared with the 3 used to manifest, but just to be sure...The 2 PPs for deep crystal would count in your Arena limited (1/3rd) pool of PPs. This is due to the fact that the deep crystal buff only lasts for 1 minute.
TroubleWolf 12-29-05, 09:48 AM	Has there been an official ruling on how Powerful Build effects Monk unarmed damage? Does a half-giant use the medium creature damage table or the large creature damage table?
Cerebus13 12-29-05, 09:56 AM	Has there been an official ruling on how Powerful Build effects Monk unarmed damage? Does a half-giant use the medium creature damage table or the large creature damage table?Half-Giants use the Medium damage table. Powerful Build only allows a Half-Giant to use weapons of one size larger than normal. A Half-Giant is still a Medium sized creature for all other intents and purposes, you can't wield "fists" of one size larger.
TelinArtho 12-29-05, 10:02 AM	@Ariel - not a table - but here's the breakdown: Ally Type Class-Feature Ally (Familiar, Animal Companion, Special Mount - excluding Thralls and Planar Cohorts) - Do not count toward your limit, do not provide a xp/gold penalty/bonus. Class-Feature Ally (Thralls and Planar Cohorts) - Do count toward your limit, do not provide a xp/gold penalty/bonus. Non-Class Feature Ally (Controlled Undead, Allies from Skills, Leadership cohorts - everything else) - Do count toward your limit, do provide a xp/gold penalty/bonus. * No type of ally gains xp. Leadership cohorts are advanced according to when the leadership score increases enough to allow a higher level, while still maintaining ECL-2. ** All allies of size small and larger count as a tax penalty for guilds. Non-combatants (allies used for roleplay purposes only) are exempt from this tax - this would include mules and other pack animals whose appearance will never be made in the arena.
Macbrea 12-29-05, 10:07 AM	Anyone happen to know if Sleight of Hand skill Breaks invisibility?
Maraxus 12-29-05, 10:14 AM	Btw, what happened to yesturday's fights? Will they come today, tomorrow or next week?
Ayrynthyn 12-29-05, 10:14 AM	one small addendum, ** All allies of size small and larger count as a tax penalty for guilds. [sub]non-combatants (like mules) are exempt from taxation, and do *NOT* count as a tax penalty for guilds.
TelinArtho 12-29-05, 10:16 AM	Btw, what happened to yesturday's fights? Will they come today, tomorrow or next week? Per the posts from Pitlords in SIZE 7... pairings will be done today at 7pm GMT. I'll create a FotW thread in a little bit to show when the due time is today.
Ayrynthyn 12-29-05, 10:34 AM	It is incorrect, the days of creation are 2 because the items costs 1500gp marketprice and the rule clearly say 1day/1000gp. So the cost is CasterLevel*SpellLevel*10gp*days => 1*1*10gp*2 = 20 gp Please tell me where to write this Item Creation (post/thread) because the rules say to link the activity and I'll create 2 magic items, I'm under the 7000gp (that is the max for 1 week). @Ariel23: Up for the chart! You put the "Crafting Item X; Crafting Item Y" in your subject line of your character, and PM Pitlords as well, however, when reviewing LLMadCow input i came across something that may put the kai-bash on this whole line of thought... The Rules of Gladius: Skills and Feats The Craft Feats This section includes all craft feats for spellcasters (scrolls, potions, arms&armor, rods, staffs, wands, rings, wondrous items, and constructs) as well as those equivalents for psionic manifesters (tattoos, powerstones, dorjes, cognizance crystals, psicrowns, universal items, and psionic constructs). In order to craft a magic or psionic item, you must have the appropriate feat and any spell or power mentioned as necessary in the items entry. However, you do not have to have the caster level mentioned in the item's entry! Crafting follows the core rules as described in the DMG/EPHB in the respective feat description. You have to pay 1/2 of the market price in raw materials, and 1/25 of the market price in XP. Crafting and Time: You may craft items up to 1000 gp Marketprice without having to sit out. However, if you exceed that value, you cannot participate in any event for that week. Your character is still considered active and may not do any Free Activities that week. For very expensive items, you might have to sit out even more than a week. If you craft items for more than 7000 gp Marketprice, you have to sit out another week, and another one for every additional 7000 gp. You must link this activity. Im not sure, but it could be argued that this "house rule" trumps the rule in the DMG. It can also be argued that you "have" the spell because you "have" the NPC available (per DMG) to cast it for you daily. for all of us watching at home, let us know what Pitlords says to your PM (and make sure you're explicit about the NPC casting service when you PM him).
NiQil 12-29-05, 11:13 AM	Half-Giants use the Medium damage table. Powerful Build only allows a Half-Giant to use weapons of one size larger than normal. A Half-Giant is still a Medium sized creature for all other intents and purposes, you can't wield "fists" of one size larger. While I agree that half-giants are medium creatures, this logic is not entirely accurate. You are not wielding fists one size larger, but would, rather, be doing more damage than a normal medium creature due to your giant blood. As most females will tell you (at least to your face), size doesn't matter. Here is the quandry to this question: A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category. As we see, above, half-giants use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. It would seem to me that a designed weapon is one that is manufactured. A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. Since a monk's unarmed strike is treated as a manufactured weapon, I would say that yes, half giant's can do damage as large size.
Warclone 12-29-05, 11:20 AM	I have a question for you guys: According to CoCo, how does Body Fuel (http://d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#bodyFuel) work? Is it a free action to burn ability for power points? Can you burn multiple ability points at once?
Cerebus13 12-29-05, 11:44 AM	@NiQil Then what you're essentially saying is that a Half-Giant is wielding "fists" of one size larger than what a Medium creature is normally allowed. If people can accept how rediculous wielding larger sized fists is, then I guess I could go along with it.
Altaris13 12-29-05, 12:09 PM	@NiQil Then what you're essentially saying is that a Half-Giant is wielding "fists" of one size larger than what a Medium creature is normally allowed. If people can accept how rediculous wielding larger sized fists is, then I guess I could go along with it. Um, no? That concept is just silly. It is one thing to use a large sized gauntlet (which I don't really agree with, but hey.) It is entirely different idea to have "large fists" on a medium creature. Half-giants do not equal Hellboy.
Prisonlords 12-29-05, 12:21 PM	Everyone, In this post, I have updated the proposed sample character sheet with many of the suggestion that have been made since this discussion started. This is getting very close to being finalized, so I would like to hear feedback on the sheet as it stands now. Wander on over to the Streamlining Initiative Discussion thread and be heard!
NiQil 12-29-05, 12:26 PM	Um, no? That concept is just silly. It is one thing to use a large sized gauntlet (which I don't really agree with, but hey.) It is entirely different idea to have "large fists" on a medium creature. Half-giants do not equal Hellboy. @NiQil Then what you're essentially saying is that a Half-Giant is wielding "fists" of one size larger than what a Medium creature is normally allowed. If people can accept how rediculous wielding larger sized fists is, then I guess I could go along with it. Again....it is not larger sized fists, but rather large damage from medium fists due to giant blood. I find it amusing that most people get wrapped up in the whole "medium creatures do not have large fists" side of the argument, and don't actually look at the RAW. By the RAW, it works, since monk unarmed streaks are treated as manufactured weapons, and half giants can wield weapons one size larger without penalty. I would like to see a RAW argument that says it doesn't work, rather than just saying it's silly. Lots of things in D&D are silly. But by the RAW, it works.
Cerebus13 12-29-05, 12:32 PM	Again....it is not larger sized fists, but rather large damage from medium fists due to giant blood. I find it amusing that most people get wrapped up in the whole "medium creatures do not have large fists" side of the argument, and don't actually look at the RAW. By the RAW, it works, since monk unarmed streaks are treated as manufactured weapons, and half giants can wield weapons one size larger without penalty. I would like to see a RAW argument that says it doesn't work, rather than just saying it's silly. Lots of things in D&D are silly. But by the RAW, it works.Look at the monk quote again:A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.By the RAW the Powerful Build ability does not enhance or improve weapons. It merely states that "A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty."
Altaris13 12-29-05, 12:38 PM	Just as half-giants who happen to (for one reason or another) have natural attacks still deal damage as medium sized creatures. Niqil, you're fishing for something in an empty pond. Instead of us convincing you that your imagination is running wild, you should be convincing us as to why your argument is valid. The RAW show that half-giants do NOT deal damage as if they are large. RAW show that half-giants may use weapons sized for creatures of one size category than the half-giant currently is.
NiQil 12-29-05, 12:52 PM	@ Cerebus: Thank you. Both for making a case based in RAW, and doing so politely. I have not really formed an opinion on the issue, and obviously I wasn't looking at all of the information. Your point is well taken, and has changed my mind on the issue. @ Altaris: The condescending tone of your two previous posts is very much unappreciated. They were both rather offensive. Just because you disagree with something someone says, does not give you the right to ridicule them, however subtly you do it. Both posts could have gotten the same point across in a much different fashion. And that is all I have to say on the matter.
TroubleWolf 12-29-05, 01:00 PM	Instead of us convincing you that your imagination is running wild, you should be convincing us as to why your argument is valid. I think there's a valid argument both ways, which is why I asked for an official ruling. Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. This right here is a viable argument as to why they could be treated as large. However, some may say it's more "flavor" than "crunch" at this point of the paragraph. ...the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. This is taken out of context, I realize, but it still seems as though the intent of the writers is to treat half-giants as large-sized except for reach and the -1 to attack/AC. A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. Again, this does not specifically mention unarmed damage, but it does show the intent of the writer to considering the half-giant as large "for all intents and purposes". A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category. Bottom line: the RAW says nothing at all about a half-giant's unarmed damage. However, I feel that if the race is physically imposing enough to get a large-sized creature's bonuses to grapple, trip, bull rush, etc., he ought to get the large-sized creature's unarmed strike damage. I can certainly see how the argument can go the other way, though.
Macbrea 12-29-05, 01:18 PM	Ok, I guess I am not sure on something. May you use your discount for bluff/appraise/sense motive on your initial purchases ?
Altaris13 12-29-05, 01:20 PM	@ Cerebus: Thank you. Both for making a case based in RAW, and doing so politely. I have not really formed an opinion on the issue, and obviously I wasn't looking at all of the information. Your point is well taken, and has changed my mind on the issue. @ Altaris: The condescending tone of your two previous posts is very much unappreciated. They were both rather offensive. Just because you disagree with something someone says, does not give you the right to ridicule them, however subtly you do it. Both posts could have gotten the same point across in a much different fashion. And that is all I have to say on the matter. I apologize. The first post wasn't meant in that fashion in anyway. The second one... I was just being off-hand about it. I wasn't trying to belittle you. I am sorry.
TelinArtho 12-29-05, 01:25 PM	Ok, I guess I am not sure on something. May you use your discount for bluff/appraise/sense motive on your initial purchases ? No because it must be a linked activity.
Altaris13 12-29-05, 01:26 PM	This is taken out of context, I realize, but it still seems as though the intent of the writers is to treat half-giants as large-sized except for reach and the -1 to attack/AC. But the intent is not to make half-giants better at being large than large creatures, is it? Again, this does not specifically mention unarmed damage, but it does show the intent of the writer to considering the half-giant as large "for all intents and purposes". Again, I completely disagree. The writers specify exactly where the half-giant is able to gain benefits. Any thing not specifically mentioned is where they are treated as normal medium creatures. Bottom line: the RAW says nothing at all about a half-giant's unarmed damage. However, I feel that if the race is physically imposing enough to get a large-sized creature's bonuses to grapple, trip, bull rush, etc., he ought to get the large-sized creature's unarmed strike damage. I can certainly see how the argument can go the other way, though. Bottom line: the RAW says nothing at all about half-giant's unarmed damage. That means that the half-giant is treated in all fashions as a creature for its actual size with regards to unarmed and natural attacks. Look to the FAQ: half-dragon half-giants do not get wings. Why should they get the inherent benefit of doing more damage when others have to use feats, class levels and/or magical items? It is bad enough that the FAQ allows monks to use improved natural attack to increase their already ungodly unarmed damage. Allowing half-giant monks to do damage as large creatures is simply ridiculous. Just as Cerebrus said. EDIT: And for the record, unarmed strikes are not considered "Special attacks." So the SRD quote regarding half-giants being considered large for special attacks should be completely ignored in relevance to unarmed or natural strikes.
Macbrea 12-29-05, 01:58 PM	Actually.... I figured what the heck I would look in the FAQ. Does the powerful build racial trait change the damage the character deals with unarmed strikes and natural weapons? No. The powerful build racial trait allows the character to “use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty” but doesn’t say anything about changing the damage dealt by his unarmed strikes or natural weapons. So, according to the FAQ, the answer is no.
TroubleWolf 12-29-05, 02:12 PM	So, according to the FAQ, the answer is no. That's all the confirmation I need. Thanks!
Ariel23 12-29-05, 03:30 PM	Medium fists are a medium weapon. What is proposed is that when a Half-Giant wields any weapon (including fists) he treats the weapon as one size larger. For example, a Half-Giant wielding a medium longsword, instead of doing medium damage (1d8), does large damage (2d6), because he's so strong. But that's clearly not what the ability says. This is pretty well summed up in the SRD quote from aboveA monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve...manufactured weapons.. The half-giant ability does not enhance weapons: his longsword does the same damage as everyone else's longsword. Give or take 20 STR. ;) For now, the 2nd Level Half-Giant Monk [ECL 3] will have to live with 20 STR, mwk nunchaku at +5/+5 1d8+5/1d8+5, Improved Grapple +14, and Improved Trip of +13. :eek:
TroubleWolf 12-29-05, 03:42 PM	For now, the 2nd Level Half-Giant Monk [ECL 3] will have to live with 20 STR, mwk nunchaku at +5/+5 1d8+5/1d8+5, Improved Grapple +14, and Improved Trip of +13. :eek: Well, Monks don't get Improved Trip as a Bonus Feat until 6th, and it's got a PreReq of Combat Expertise, so I don't think such a character could have it yet. But it would be nice...
Ariel23 12-29-05, 06:18 PM	Ah, that's true. And at 6th level, the Monk can also take Improved Natural Attack.
Book5 12-29-05, 07:22 PM	1) A succesful steal can still be spotted; regardless, your attention is taken away from your opponent's flashing weapon, which is all that's needed for an AoO. Applying an oil to something draws an AoO. You can do it under your cloak if you want; it doesn't matter. Your opponent still can and most likely will attack you while your attention's elsewhere. 2) Quickdraw is the feat which allows you to draw a weapon as a free action or a concealed weapon as a move action. Sleight of Hand is the skill which allows you to potentially steal small items from other people. "A rose by any other name" does not apply here. 3) Sleight of Hand would indeed be more powerful if you could keep what you managed to steal; just as Sunder would be more powerful if objects stayed sundered and killing your foes would be much more potent if they stayed dead after the fight. There are houserules here as in any game, as much as we try to avoid them. You may as well fight against the idea of the nimbus as fight against losing the things you steal; you will get just as far. 4) It is understandable that you may have thought it was "use perform," but that does not change it from being what it is. You can use certain skills to make money in the CoCo, and any skill not on the list, you cannot. The skills which you cannot use have been defined as those which have other reasonable uses in the CoCo, such as Armorsmithing and Alchemy. Tumble falls into that list. 5) As I learned years ago from a debate coach, subtly disparaging remarks like "son" should be avoided; the intended effect is to subconsciously sway the audience into thinking that you must be right, because you are older and wiser, but inevitably the "kid" brings the subconscious into the conscious by pointing out the fallacy and then the audience turns on you. oh Snommel, thats so ... not right. Your Point: "CoCo rules say this is SO" 5) Ahh, Actually pal, using familiar language is classic method of indicating.. familiarity. Im not a debater. Im an idealist. "I understand" your point. AND! I am not really arguing against it.. I mean.. do you hear me making a stink about the complete incorrect way we are using MW instruments with perfrom? Hennan's fine by coincidence and "intelligent design" but that "items for each perform" thing is. not. RAW. (oops there it was) but! Im also a bit of an inverter. "oops I tripped.. " hit me I dare ya. It works better in person perhaps. That said the best weapon in a debate is not attitude bu'ut Acuracy (yeah you can tell I wasnt in debate in high school). 4) Right.. setting.. the rules of which have experienced "a couple" of revisions. Not what I would call an "unredessable" (sp?) authority. Im just talking about RAW here. I didnt say that not allowing tumble to be used as perfrom was "wrong" I said it was "teh silly" I 1337ed for a reason. Its silly. I understand the logic - but I can disagree. I would prefer a more RAW analysis. I dont see anyone scrambling to make something out of Intimidate and that skill is pointless. (Note: Cat and me are the only people who have even mentioned the skill). 3) Sunder gives you nothing and grants you every arena profit regardless of whether the gladiator gets a new weapon when they walk out of the room. Killing your foes.. works just fine in the arean.. thats how you won our last fight "Hennan" YOU KILLED ME! and won and it was done. No amount of coming back to life happens in the arean unless you have a contingicy ressurect ok? Knowledge skills have NO (thats 0) usage in the arena. Intimidate has never been used in the arena.. effectivly. Tan would have roughly 2000 more gp right now if he could keep his booty. That is a manifest difference between stealing and sundering. Comments and addendums for a work in progress buddy. 2) Oh man. Snommelp! Snommelp! How long have you been debating? "Check your Sources first!" Quothe the SRD "Drawing a hidden weapon is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity." ala Slight of hand you can do that at a neg 20 and boom "by any. other. name." - and it doesnt draw an AoO! Just wait till Tan has skill mastery slight of hand bub. 1) See 2. Debate = Book5 Wins! .... or something else declaritive! The question I am asking is not "can we change it" I would ask cat to change it.. and will later. BUT It seems silly to me. The Perform rules grant three other skill (tumble, slight of hand and tumble) the ability to be "used as perfrom" this is unRAWed by the CoCo. Slight of hand is not a neglected skill.. but the CoCo scenario has derailed the primary usage of the skill. A skill that has never been underused elsewhere. One of the things I like about this place is the "core" concepts. The functional rule phenomena. OK, "give people excuses to take the skills." take slight of hand of that free activity list and add these subruitines: Slight of Hand If you have 5 or more ranks in slight of hand: You may "fence (sell)" stolen items back to the arena for 1/2 price. Alternativly you may pay a credit and keep a stolen item. If a credit is paid: Two identical items leave the arena (on in both character's packs) If the item is fenced: The theif adds 1/2 the items value in gold to thier accounting. Then remove slight of hand from the weekly money makers. I think thats both RAW and reasonable. Then add this caveat to the fluff The Guilds of Gladius (the entertainers in particular) have, despite some pressure to allow "street performers" into their esteemed fraternity, declared that only "true artists and professionals" will be allowed to operate freely in the city of Gladius. The response from the "street perfromers" has been an increase in burglary, pick pocketing, and general thievery. ... The city of Gladius has a standing ban on the use of magic (particularly Illusions) as a form of primary entertainment. "The use of magic can support a performance, but should not be a performance. Prestidious displays are not safe, a waste of magical energy, and shall not be undertaken in the city of Gladius." Only one arcane spellcaster, a Bard, has ever requested the council reverse this descision. I think that would be purrfectly nice .. and not "teh silly" RAW? Yes. Interesting? Needed? Wanted? whatever. Reactions? Honestly - "Spellcraft as perfrom" just rocks my world - never noticed that before!
Snommelp 12-29-05, 10:15 PM	2) Oh man. Snommelp! Snommelp! How long have you been debating? "Check your Sources first!" Quothe the SRD "Drawing a hidden weapon is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity." ala Slight of hand you can do that at a neg 20 and boom "by any. other. name." - and it doesnt draw an AoO! Just wait till Tan has skill mastery slight of hand bub. 1) See 2. Since these are the only two where I see arguments relating to the rules, these are the two I will address. 2) You are mistaken in one thing: it is the hiding of the weapon that is an act of the Sleight of Hand skill. Drawing the weapon has nothing to do with the skill, except perhaps if you hide it so well that you yourself cannot find it. 1) See 2; drawing the weapon is not part of the skill, but the other things you can do with the skill in combat (i.e. stealing) can draw an AoO, whether your foe sees what is drawing your attention or not. I will now go against what I said eariler by aso touching on point 3. 3) You misunderstand me completely. Your point was that, if you could steal from your foes and therefore throw off the gold/xp ratios that the CoCo tries to preserve, you would be more powerful. My responding point was that yes, you are right; and if the dead stayed dead afterwards, the CoCo would also be exceptionally different. My argument is therefore this: yes, you would have more money if you could keep what you stole, but you would get just as far trying to argue against the ressurections of the Nimbus, which is to say nowhere.
Book5 12-29-05, 11:02 PM	SLEIGHT OF HAND (DEX; TRAINED ONLY; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY) Check: A DC 10 Sleight of Hand check lets you palm a coin-sized, unattended object. Performing a minor feat of legerdemain, such as making a coin disappear, also has a DC of 10 unless an observer is determined to note where the item went. When you use this skill under close observation, your skill check is opposed by the observer’s Spot check. The observer’s success doesn’t prevent you from performing the action, just from doing it unnoticed. You can hide a small object (including a light weapon or an easily concealed ranged weapon, such as a dart, sling, or hand crossbow) on your body. Your Sleight of Hand check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone observing you or the Search check of anyone frisking you. In the latter case, the searcher gains a +4 bonus on the Search check, since it’s generally easier to find such an object than to hide it. A dagger is easier to hide than most light weapons, and grants you a +2 bonus on your Sleight of Hand check to conceal it. An extraordinarily small object, such as a coin, shuriken, or ring, grants you a +4 bonus on your Sleight of Hand check to conceal it, and heavy or baggy clothing (such as a cloak) grants you a +2 bonus on the check. Drawing a hidden weapon is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. If you try to take something from another creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check to obtain it. The opponent makes a Spot check to detect the attempt, opposed by the same Sleight of Hand check result you achieved when you tried to grab the item. An opponent who succeeds on this check notices the attempt, regardless of whether you got the item. You can also use Sleight of Hand to entertain an audience as though you were using the Perform skill. In such a case, your “act” encompasses elements of legerdemain, juggling, and the like. Sleight of Hand DC Task 10 Palm a coin-sized object, make a coin disappear 20 Lift a small object from a person 50 Lift a sheathed weapon from another creature and hide it on the character’s person, if the weapon is no more than one size category larger than the character’s own size. 80 Make an adjacent, willing creature or object of the character’s size or smaller “disappear” while in plain view. In fact, the willing creature or object is displaced up to 10 feet away—make a separate Hide check to determine how well the “disappeared” creature or object is hidden. Action: Any Sleight of Hand check normally is a standard action. However, you may perform a Sleight of Hand check as a free action by taking a –20 penalty on the check. Try Again: Yes, but after an initial failure, a second Sleight of Hand attempt against the same target (or while you are being watched by the same observer who noticed your previous attempt) increases the DC for the task by 10. Special: If you have the Deft Hands feat, you get a +2 bonus on Sleight of Hand checks. Synergy: If you have 5 or more ranks in Bluff, you get a +2 bonus on Sleight of Hand checks. Untrained: An untrained Sleight of Hand check is simply a Dexterity check. Without actual training, you can’t succeed on any Sleight of Hand check with a DC higher than 10, except for hiding an object on your body. OK, we are digressing in about four directions snom, so. I propose a simple strait foreward question. Slight of hand check DC 30 {Free Action} "Legerdemain" an "unattended" dagger (on your belt) to your "palm" (aka hand). Is that illegal? Seems legal.. Ive done it in alot of games. It seems to be compleatly within the written intent of the skill. Is there a piece of the rules that I am missing? Since this manifestly effects my main character I would like this action issue clarified. I can get back to all that weekly activity nonesense later. Anyone? No offense snommelp, but you and me have discussed your not being an optimization/rules super-freak, and at this point someone else might be a little leary to butt in. again thats Slight of hand check DC 30 {Free Action} "Legerdemain" an "unattended" dagger (on your belt) to your "palm" (aka hand). legal?
Snommelp 12-30-05, 12:23 AM	Speaking strictly from a DM's perspective: if I were to allow it, I'd have to fix it first. Your numbers are off, because DC 30 assumes a DC 10 for the Standard Action version. The only DC 10 use you have listed on your extended skill (of which several parts are not in my PHB...) is to palm a coin sized object, which a dagger is most definitely not. That is the first strike against your attempt to turn Sleight of Hand into Quickdraw. The second problem is that, when you palm an item, you are not concerned with certain things, such as the direction it is facing and its position in your hand (beyond the fact that it is hidden from sight). I know from personal experience, having once dabbled in stage magic. When you draw a weapon, however, you must pay attention to those things; a dagger pointing at yourself instead of your foe or being held by the blade instead of the hilt does you little good. Also, you are trying to make a skill replace a feat; can you provide a single other instance where this happens? Does a high enough Tumble check give you the Dodge feat for free? Do enough ranks in Spellcraft give you free access to Spell Mastery? That makes three strikes, Book. And you are right, Book, I am not as interested in optimization as other people here. I do, however, have a more than decent grasp of the rules, and I like to see the problems with the rules before I see people throwing solutions around. Where is the problem? All I see here is an attempt to get a free feat through a barely related skill.
Warclone 12-30-05, 02:02 AM	I posted this earlier and still haven't been able to find an answer. Any takers? I have a question for you guys: According to CoCo, how does Body Fuel work? Is it a free action to burn ability for power points? Can you burn multiple ability points at once?
Vathelokai 12-30-05, 03:49 AM	I posted this earlier and still haven't been able to find an answer. Any takers? I have a question for you guys: According to CoCo, how does Body Fuel work? Is it a free action to burn ability for power points? Can you burn multiple ability points at once? BODY FUEL [PSIONIC] You can expand your power point total at the expense of your health. Benefit: You can recover 2 power points by taking 1 point of ability burn damage to each of your three ability scores: Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution. You can recover additional power points for a proportional cost to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution. These recovered points are added to your power point reserve as if you had gained them by resting overnight. Special: Only living creatures can use this feat. You can take advantage of this feat only while in your own body. The way I'm reading it, you can burn as many points as you want in 1 free action. I can't find the source, but I think I read somewhere that feats usually don't cost an action, since they tend to be part of another action.
TheMagister 12-30-05, 04:31 AM	Pearls of Power: My vote is to use them exactly as they are written in the RAW. Cast Magic Missile, use Pearl, get Magic Missile back. Cast Magic Missile, cast Shocking Grasp, use Pearl, get to choose between Magic Missile or Shocking Grasp to get back. Pearls of Power were never meant to recall SPELL LEVELS/SPELL SLOTS, they were meant to recall SPELLS CAST. You guys are over-thinking it. Just because the CoCo has a spell level system doesn't mean that the usage of the item should change. You simply regain the ability to cast a specific spell of the specific level (set by the pearl) again, as if you hadn't cast it. So, you gain back a spell level that can only be used to cast a spell of a specific level that you had already cast previously in that day. It's very simple, isn't it? TM
Iced 12-30-05, 05:07 AM	Wizard in game casts magic missile Wizard in game recalls magic missile Wizard in game has the same spellcasting potential he had earlier (minus the pearl's power) With the 1/3 rule we're going by spell levels and recalling allows you to regain a lost spell and therefore a spell level. I see no problem with allowing spellcasters to use this level on any spell they want seeing as in a game they'd be able to use their newly re-memorized magic missile next encounter.
Vathelokai 12-30-05, 05:27 AM	Pearls of Power were never meant to recall SPELL LEVELS/SPELL SLOTS, they were meant to recall SPELLS CAST. You guys are over-thinking it. Just because the CoCo has a spell level system doesn't mean that the usage of the item should change.Here's my opinion; Spell level/spell slots per fight is a CoCo house rule that conflicts with an item from the SRD. The reason pearls were never ment to return spell slots is because we made up the 1/3rd rule, not WotC. I believe we are in a relm where RAW and RAI cannot settle the issue. I was under the impression that the 1/3rd rule meant "of spell levels you could potentialy cast, you can use 1/3rd of them". So does the use of a pearl return potential spellcasting power to your pool, or does it give you the ability to cast an x level spell? I think that if we rule that it gives you the ability to recast a spell without any interaction with the 1/3rd rule, then we are making the pearl do something that it was never intended to do (i.e. bestow spell like ability to cast 1 spell), even though from an objective standpoint they have the same ultimate effect. For a reference point, look at how psions can use the pearl of power. A pearl can be used to return PP to the pool, for any use. I see no problems with letting arcanists use it in the same way. As has been pointed out, it has never unbalanced things so far.
KerlanRayne 12-30-05, 05:31 AM	Pearls of Power: My vote is to use them exactly as they are written in the RAW. Cast Magic Missile, use Pearl, get Magic Missile back. Cast Magic Missile, cast Shocking Grasp, use Pearl, get to choose between Magic Missile or Shocking Grasp to get back. Pearls of Power were never meant to recall SPELL LEVELS/SPELL SLOTS, they were meant to recall SPELLS CAST. You guys are over-thinking it. Just because the CoCo has a spell level system doesn't mean that the usage of the item should change. You simply regain the ability to cast a specific spell of the specific level (set by the pearl) again, as if you hadn't cast it. So, you gain back a spell level that can only be used to cast a spell of a specific level that you had already cast previously in that day. It's very simple, isn't it? TMYou just don't understand. They are talking about the same thing you are. Nothing about the item has changed. Here's a scenario. Say a 3rd level wizard has 3 spell levels to use in a fight. he has memorized True Strike, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, Invisibility and See Invisibility. He casts Shocking Grasp and Magic Missile, leaving him with 1 spell level free. He then recalls Shocking Grasp bringing him back up to 2 spell levels. Instead of casting any more first level spells, he decides to use those 2 spell levels to cast Invisibility. Before he used the Pearl he could not cast this, but now he can. Do you understand? KerlanRayne
Vathelokai 12-30-05, 05:41 AM	The only DC 10 use you have listed on your extended skill (of which several parts are not in my PHB...) is to palm a coin sized object, which a dagger is most definitely not. The extra parts are from the epic skills list. And actually, Book is trying to make slight of hand work better than quickdraw... QUICK DRAW [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1. Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action. A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow). Normal: Without this feat, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement. Without this feat, you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action. Slight of hand check DC 30 {Free Action} "Legerdemain" an "unattended" dagger (on your belt) to your "palm" (aka hand).Maybe with a shuriken, but a dagger is too large, as per the rules.
TheMagister 12-30-05, 05:54 AM	You just don't understand. They are talking about the same thing you are. Nothing about the item has changed. Here's a scenario. Say a 3rd level wizard has 3 spell levels to use in a fight. he has memorized True Strike, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, Invisibility and See Invisibility. He casts Shocking Grasp and Magic Missile, leaving him with 1 spell level free. He then recalls Shocking Grasp bringing him back up to 2 spell levels. Instead of casting any more first level spells, he decides to use those 2 spell levels to cast Invisibility. Before he used the Pearl he could not cast this, but now he can. Do you understand? KerlanRayne I understand perfectly. The situation you describe directly conflicts the description of the item...: Pearl of Power: This seemingly normal pearl of average size and luster is a potent aid to all spellcasters who prepare spells (clerics, druids, rangers, paladins, and wizards). Once per day on command, a pearl of power enables the possessor to recall any one spell that she had prepared and then cast. The spell is then prepared again, just as if it had not been cast. The spell must be of a particular level, depending on the pearl. Different pearls exist for recalling one spell per day of each level from 1st through 9th and for the recall of two spells per day (each of a different level, 6th or lower). ...and as such shouldn't be allowed. The pearls were never designed to recall spellcasting potential, it was meant to "recall any one spell that she had prepared and then cast." It's very specific, and I don't understand why so many normally level-headed people are saying that usages like KerlanRayne just described are legal. It's clearly not. Using a 2nd level pearl of power to recall hold person and then using the second level slot that is delegated to Hold Person (this is a potent aid to all spellcasters that prepare spells) to cast two first level spells is preposterous. So is recalling one first level spell slot (delegated to X specific first level spell) and another first level spell slot (delegated to X specific first level spell) to cast a second level spell. Casters that prepare spells cannot be treated as spontaneous casters unless an item specifically allows them to be treated so. Pearls of Power do not. TM
Vathelokai 12-30-05, 07:16 AM	Using a 2nd level pearl of power to recall hold person and then using the second level slot that is delegated to Hold Person (this is a potent aid to all spellcasters that prepare spells) to cast two first level spells is preposterous. So is recalling one first level spell slot (delegated to X specific first level spell) and another first level spell slot (delegated to X specific first level spell) to cast a second level spell. Casters that prepare spells cannot be treated as spontaneous casters unless an item specifically allows them to be treated so. Pearls of Power do not. TM Let me try again, and pardon me for pushing the point. NO ONE is saying that you recall a 2nd level spell with a 1st level pearl of power, or 2 first level spells iwth a pearl2. No one says that you are placing 2 1st lv spells in a 2nd lv. spell slot. Once per day on command, a pearl of power enables the possessor to recall any one spell that she had prepared and then cast.We are saying that if you recall the spell as if it had never been cast, then your potential spell casting power should be returned as though you had never cast the spell. Therefore it should return your spell levels, as pertains to the 1/3rd rule, just as if you never cast the spell in the first place. If you then go on to cast different spells with your arena-alloted spell levels, then you still have the pearl-recalled spell in your memory, ready to cast at any later point. What you seem to be saying is that if you use the pearl, then you have to recast the spell that you recall durring that encounter. That is not the case. The spell is still recalled for the wizard; they just chose not to use it. I get the impression that you assume that the gladiators enter the arena with only 1/3rd of their spells left, and just happen to have memorized the spells they eventually use. As far as I understand that is not what is going on. When a gladiator enters the arena, they have a full compliment of spells memorized, but the referee only allow the use of 1/3rd of them. If a wizard recalled 2 magic missles, then cast scorching ray, it is not because they transmogrified the missles into rays somehow; it is because they had 2 missiles and a scorching ray memorized in the first place.
Altaris13 12-30-05, 08:26 AM	Vath has many good points, and I agree with all of them. You say not to consider the item in regards to the CoCo rules, but that is exactly how we must consider its useage. Why must we? Because it is being used within the CoCo, and so affects and is affected by the CoCo Rules. Vath also mentions how Psionic characters can benefit from Pearls of Power. On the same token, Psionic characters can utilize a Cognizance Crystal and do the same thing. A one point CogCrystal can return one power point that the psion can then use as they see fit. Why shouldn't casters get the same benefit?
Macbrea 12-30-05, 10:31 AM	I have a question regarding poisons. Is Arrows (50) considered one weapon for purposes of poisoning them? Just like magic weapons or do you have to use one vial of poison per arrow? I would think the whole bundle of arrows would count because you enchant in increments of 50.
Book5 12-30-05, 11:14 AM	Also, you are trying to make a skill replace a feat; can you provide a single other instance where this happens? Does a high enough Tumble check give you the Dodge feat for free? Do enough ranks in Spellcraft give you free access to Spell Mastery? That makes three strikes, Book. And you are right, Book, I am not as interested in optimization as other people here. I do, however, have a more than decent grasp of the rules, and I like to see the problems with the rules before I see people throwing solutions around. Where is the problem? All I see here is an attempt to get a free feat through a barely related skill. So what your saying is that "yes at a +5 DC for a tool sized object, +10 for large object. +30 for tiny creature +50 for small creature, +70 medium creature, and +100 for large creature." :confused: Defeat Illusion: The character can automatically detect any illusion with an auditory component for what it truly is. No Will save is required Perfect Recovery: The character can allow a character to regain hit points in a single hour as if he or she had provided longterm care for a full week (2 or 3 hit points per level per day, based on activity). The character can use perfect recovery on up to six patients at a time. No character’s recovery can be perfected more than once per day, nor can perfect recovery and quicken recovery both be used on the same patient in the same day (even by different healers). Pass through Wall of Force: This allows a character to find a gap of weakness in a wall of force (or similar force effect) and squeeze through it. Diplomacy The character can turn a person into a fanatic follower. thats "follower" as in the feat "leadership" not to mention the acrobat, athlete, negotiator nonesense feats (that would be cooooler by far if they just said "no max skill ranks on skill x & x) AND now ladies and gentlemen lets go for the home run.. the reversal.. im talkin about tumble here folks! If you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble, you gain a +3 dodge bonus to AC when fighting defensively instead of the usual +2 dodge bonus to AC. If you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble, you gain a +6 dodge bonus to AC when executing the total defense standard action instead of the usual +4 dodge bonus to AC. Not the feat but Id call it better. I always take tumble. Dont care always take tumble every. character. I. make will always have tumble. Dodge.. eh. umm, DC 30.. er 35 ;) is "quasi-epic" so most of those are epic feat stuff.
Macbrea 12-30-05, 11:36 AM	If someone gets a chance can you look over Marcus Tallfellow (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8106982) and also if one of the questlords doesn't mind I would like to see if I can start his quest next week for access to joining the assassins' prestige class.
Altaris13 12-30-05, 11:45 AM	If someone gets a chance can you look over Marcus Tallfellow (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8106982) and also if one of the questlords doesn't mind I would like to see if I can start his quest next week for access to joining the assassins' prestige class. I may be persuaded to act as your Questlord, under the condition that part of your quest mission is to join the EHTC. :D
Macbrea 12-30-05, 11:50 AM	Well, I don't know if I can roll a 3 week quest to become an assassin in with joining a guild? If so, it would be a perfectly good in story for the character. But if so, I am fine with that.
Altaris13 12-30-05, 12:00 PM	Well, I don't know if I can roll a 3 week quest to become an assassin in with joining a guild? If so, it would be a perfectly good in story for the character. But if so, I am fine with that. Well, 3 week quests are permitted for joining guilds, and you can roll in similar precepts into a quest. One of the examples of quests is the Blackguard falling from a Paladin and having a peaceful encounter with an evil outsider all in one quest.
Vathelokai 12-30-05, 12:06 PM	If someone gets a chance can you look over Marcus Tallfellow (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8106982) and also if one of the questlords doesn't mind I would like to see if I can start his quest next week for access to joining the assassins' prestige class. Perhaps you are not aware, but for 5 credits you can go to the blackmarket and buy "an item based on any other item". Functionally this means that you can buy a 2500gp gloves of stealing (+5 slight) for 5 credits (since it is "based" on other +5 skill items, like eyes of the eagle).
Vathelokai 12-30-05, 12:46 PM	Alas, the Warforged Titan (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050930a) has fallen. By only .6% in the vote.
Macbrea 12-30-05, 01:12 PM	Perhaps you are not aware, but for 5 credits you can go to the blackmarket and buy "an item based on any other item". Functionally this means that you can buy a 2500gp gloves of stealing (+5 slight) for 5 credits (since it is "based" on other +5 skill items, like eyes of the eagle). Yes, i know. I am waiting for 10k gold and enough spare credits to buy a similar item called Third Eye of Sleight of Hand +10. I should have the spare cash by 7th. And hopefully, the credits.
Altaris13 12-30-05, 01:20 PM	Alas, the Warforged Titan (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050930a) has fallen. By only .6% in the vote. Yes, and how I mourn for mine hero. My heart hath turned to rubble as mine eyes pour forth rivers of misery. :weep: Damn ethereal filcher! Die, I say, DIE!!! And so you shall, you fiend, you fickle fartknocking filcher! Die! Vote for the Minotaur I shall. I pleed thee all, joining me in slaying that damned filcher! Die! Die!!! Just DIIIIEEEE!!!! :D
TroubleWolf 12-30-05, 01:32 PM	So... I get the general gist of the Hunter match. I'm A, my task is to defeat B, and so on. But what's the ettiquette if I encounter C while looking for B? I'm going to have to beat him anyway, shouldn't I attack him? Or do we just nod knowingly at one another and pass "until next time"?
Macbrea 12-30-05, 01:36 PM	Last Man Standing gains Winner rewards, plus 1 loser rewards for every target defeated. All others gain Loser rewards, plus 1 loser rewards for every target defeated. You don't get any reward for defeating your opponents target. Basicly, your giving your opponent a defeated.
Iced 12-30-05, 02:01 PM	If someone gets a chance can you look over Marcus Tallfellow (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8106982) and also if one of the questlords doesn't mind I would like to see if I can start his quest next week for access to joining the assassins' prestige class. I'll run it also. Assassins are fun...;) ~Iced
Snommelp 12-30-05, 02:07 PM	Book? When you use Epic stuff (which we don't use in the CoCo, seeing as level 20 is our cap), then yes, you will start to see skills being used in powerful ways. That argument won't convince me that your level 4 character gets to turn a skill into Quickdraw and more. And DC 30 is hardly "quasi-epic." At ECL 4, Hennan's already got +15 to Perform, meaning that he can beat a DC 25 roughly half of the time and DC 30 roughly 25% of the time. At ECL 4. Your own Tan (also ECL 4) has +13 to Hide; almost as good. No, DC 30 is most definitely not "quasi-epic." Especially not here. Point the third: you quoted me, then put words into my mouth? For shame, Book. What you have quoted me as saying is most definitely not "yes at a +5 DC for a tool sized object, +10 for large object. +30 for tiny creature +50 for small creature, +70 medium creature, and +100 for large creature."
TroubleWolf 12-30-05, 02:08 PM	Last Man Standing gains Winner rewards, plus 1 loser rewards for every target defeated. All others gain Loser rewards, plus 1 loser rewards for every target defeated. You don't get any reward for defeating your opponents target. Basicly, your giving your opponent a defeated. So, basically, you have to kill everyone in the correct order to get the maximum amount of points? What happens if I beat B, move on to fight C, but D (who is hunting me) ambushes me before I get to C. If I defend myself against D and defeat him, does C get the points for that kill?
Zevox 12-30-05, 02:13 PM	Alas, the Warforged Titan (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050930a) has fallen. By only .6% in the vote. Now ye know how I felt last week when Sir Zeev lost by only .4%. ;) Zevox
MindWandererB 12-30-05, 02:23 PM	Question about potion weight--I can't find a source saying that they weigh anything at all. In fact, elixirs are listed as having no weight, and potions and elixirs are basically the same thing. So where is this from?
Zevox 12-30-05, 02:32 PM	Question about potion weight--I can't find a source saying that they weigh anything at all. In fact, elixirs are listed as having no weight, and potions and elixirs are basically the same thing. So where is this from? SRD/PHB: Equipment -> Goods & Services -> Adventuring Gear (Table) Vial ink or potion.........................1 gp...1/10 lb. Zevox
Book5 12-30-05, 02:54 PM	The extra parts are from the epic skills list. And actually, Book is trying to make slight of hand work better than quickdraw... Yep, emphasis added QUICK DRAW [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1. Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action. BA character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow). Normal: Without this feat, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement. Without this feat, you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action. The slight of hand skill does not completely replace the feat. Simply approaches a similar result. Basically Balance lets you fly.. epic and slight of hand lets you "draw stuff quickly" ... at epic DCs. Whats your call Vath? How would you handle this? DC 35 to Slight of Hand a Dagger to ready? DC 40?
Vathelokai 12-30-05, 03:31 PM	Basically Balance lets you fly.. epic and slight of hand lets you "draw stuff quickly" ... at epic DCs. Whats your call Vath? How would you handle this? DC 35 to Slight of Hand a Dagger to ready? DC 40? Well, as Snommelp pointed out, Epic is not allowed at the CoCo yet. I think that the idea behind having seperate epic skill descriptions with their own tables was that the those types of tricks are only available to epic characters (and not to extremely focused lower level characters). Just because there is a DC50 "slight of hand a medium creature" trick, does not nessicarily mean that it should scale to tiny and diminuitive creatures. I think it's a good house rule (and I have some major milage on slight of hand house rules), but I don't feel that the base SRD covers it. My ruling (and I'm not an elder) is that you could palm a small object, like a shuriken or dart (basicly diminuitive objects that weigh less than a pound), as a free action at DC30 but anything larger than that is beyond the scope of the rules. Of course this leads to a different problem: potions (and possibly scrolls) fit into that catagory. This isn't such a big deal until Rogue10 - special ablity: skill mastery. At that point a rogue has a free action every round to draw a weapon or object. They nerfed haste just to stop this sort of thing, so I'm guessing this is not a RAI thing.
Ariel23 12-30-05, 03:40 PM	You just don't understand. They are talking about the same thing you are. Nothing about the item has changed. Here's a scenario. Say a 3rd level wizard has 3 spell levels to use in a fight. he has memorized True Strike, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, Invisibility and See Invisibility. He casts Shocking Grasp and Magic Missile, leaving him with 1 spell level free. He then recalls Shocking Grasp bringing him back up to 2 spell levels. Instead of casting any more first level spells, he decides to use those 2 spell levels to cast Invisibility. Before he used the Pearl he could not cast this, but now he can. Do you understand? KerlanRayne See next block (Iced) for a more full explanation. Let me sum up my (our?) POV in one sentence: Under your interpretation, why would you ever buy a 2nd level pearl? (or 3rd or 4th...) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wizard in game casts magic missile Wizard in game recalls magic missile Wizard in game has the same spellcasting potential he had earlier (minus the pearl's power) With the 1/3 rule we're going by spell levels and recalling allows you to regain a lost spell and therefore a spell level. I see no problem with allowing spellcasters to use this level on any spell they want seeing as in a game they'd be able to use their newly re-memorized magic missile next encounter.Wizard in TT game has 4 1st, 2 2nd spells prepared. Wizard in game casts Acid Arrow and Protection from Arrows [2 x 2nd] Wizard in game casts Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement, Sleep, and Expeditious Retreat. [4 x 1st] Wizard in game is now completely out of spells. Wizard in game uses 4 1st level pearls of power to recall MM four times. [Four 1st level spells but not 4 "spell levels"] Wizard in game cannot now cast Acid Arrow twice, or even once. He would have to buy a 2nd level pearl for that. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Vath has many good points, and I agree with all of them. You say not to consider the item in regards to the CoCo rules, but that is exactly how we must consider its useage. Why must we? Because it is being used within the CoCo, and so affects and is affected by the CoCo Rules. Vath also mentions how Psionic characters can benefit from Pearls of Power. On the same token, Psionic characters can utilize a Cognizance Crystal and do the same thing. A one point CogCrystal can return one power point that the psion can then use as they see fit. Why shouldn't casters get the same benefit?A user cannot directly replenish her personal power points from those stored in a cognizance crystal, nor can she draw power points from more than one source to manifest a power. See Using Stored Power Points for more information.This is a universal rule for psionics. An 18th level Psion with 9 1st Lvl Cognizance Crystals can manifest an extra nine 1st level powers per day, nothing more. If you are saying Cognizance Crystal = Pearl of Power, then it is clear you can use your pearl to cast one 1st level spell but cannot use it to add one spell level in order to cast a higher level spell. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Non-rhetorical question: If a Pearl of Power allows you to re-prepare a spell of a given level, and you are only allowed to prepare X/day...and only allowed to prepare X/day/3 in the arena, why is it self-evident that a Pearl of Power does not return to you 1/3 of the appropriate spell levels? What I am asking is, why is this not under discussion? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Purely rhetorical question: Why have Caterane/the Council make very important house rules simply to have them overcome through the incremental expenditure of 1,000 gp? [500 gp with a bonus feat.] And what is the point of testing builds if with a few thousand gold, you can turn your wizard into a spontaneous caster with a full spell list through the purchase and interpretation of an item that was never intended to function that way in core D&D?
Ariel23 12-30-05, 03:55 PM	Does anyone have an official (CoCo or WotC--haha, the first is more important!) ruling on Expansion (or Compression): http://d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm I was having a discussion with MindWandererB and it seems that he is correct that Expansion increases bow (et al) damage. It all seems so obvious from: All your equipment, worn or carried, is similarly expanded by this power. Melee and projectile weapons deal more damage.But then why do they say: Any affected item that leaves your possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them). :confused: Their normal size? :thinks: It seems to me as though large projectiles are meant to deal extra damage, but then why do they add those extra lines in about "returning to normal size" and "doing damage based on size?" If they delete that, it's 100% clear. Bah!
Snommelp 12-30-05, 03:56 PM	Ariel, let me try to explain the point that the others are making more clearly, as I believe you are misinterpreting them. We have a wizard named Q. Q can cast three level 1 spells and two level 2 spells. That translates to seven spell levels in the CoCo, which means Q can cast 3 spell levels in a fight. Now let us assume that Q has memorized the following: Level 1: Magic Missile, Summon Monster I, Expeditious Retreat Level 2: Scorching Ray, Alter Self In the fight, Q casts Alter Self and Magic Missile. Now, according to the rules of CoCo, he is out of spells. Q uses his pearl of power (level 2) to recall his Alter Self. This also recalls his two spell levels he used to cast it. He now has two spell levels left and four spells memorized: Summon Monster I, Expeditious Retreat, Scorching Ray, and Alter Self. Apart from Alter Self, all of these spells were there already, he just could not cast them because of the 1/3 rule. Now he can, and he chooses to cast Summon Monster I. That leaves him one spell level, but he uses his level 1 pearl to recall Magic Missile. Recalling Magic Missile, he also recalls the spell level used on it, which gives him two spell levels. He also has the following spells memorized: Magic Missile, Expeditious Retreat, Scorching Ray, Alter Self. Again, the other spells were already there, but Q could not cast them because of the 1/3 rule. Now he has two spell levels and uses those to cast Scorching Ray. Notice that at no point did using a pearl allow Q to recall spells of a different level. It merely allowed him to recall the spell levels used as well. If Q were to cast Alter Self and then attempt to use a PoP level 1 so that he could cast Scorching Ray, it would not work because he had no level 1 spell used that he could recall. However, if he used all three spell levels on level one spells and then recalled two of them, he would also be recalling two spells levels, which he could use to cast one level 2 spell that he had not yet cast. In a similar vein, once he has used both of his memorized level 2 spells, he cannot cast them again, no matter how many level 1 spells he recalls, because they are gone. That is why he would buy higher level pearls. Have I cleared up the argument for you?
DTFarstar 12-30-05, 03:57 PM	I always assumed that if you have a PoP, you can use it to recall any spell you have cast. Not CAN cast, but have cast. Like, in Ariel's above example the wizard could use a 1st level Pearl to recover Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement, Sleep, or Expeditious Retreat. And only recall each of them once. Essentially just making it as though you never cast that one spell you did cast earlier. So, in the Arena, I think if you had, for example, 3 spell levels you can use per fight and you cast say... Magic Missile and Reduce Person, you could use Pearl of Power to make it like you never cast Magic Missile, and then cast say... Acid Arrow with the two spell levels you have left. It doesn't give you the ability to cast more 2nd level spells, you just got to cast one more 1st level spell than you normally would have.
lonewolf 12-30-05, 03:58 PM	I think it just means that you cannot expand and then give your ogre buddy a bow suitable for his size. leaves your posession != fireing it
DTFarstar 12-30-05, 03:58 PM	Curses, a little bit slower and with a slightly worse explanation, but the same argument.
Snommelp 12-30-05, 04:00 PM	It seems to me as though large projectiles are meant to deal extra damage, but then why do they add those extra lines in about "returning to normal size" and "doing damage based on size?" If they delete that, it's 100% clear. Bah!An arrow's damage is based on the bow that fired it; that's why an arrow fired by a composite +4 longbow deals more damage than an arrow fired by a normal shortbow. Thrown weapons, however, deal damage based on their size and the strength of the thrower. When they shrink, they deal a smaller base damage (but still the same strength bonus from the enlarged thrower). As to why they add the line about projectiles changing size: I don't know. Maybe sling bullets follow the rules of thrown weapons for this? That's the best explanation I can give, but it's probably wrong. Or maybe it's for if you want to collect unbroken arrows and refire them, to let you know that they won't fit right any more.
Vathelokai 12-30-05, 04:10 PM	Non-rhetorical question: If a Pearl of Power allows you to re-prepare a spell of a given level, and you are only allowed to prepare X/day...and only allowed to prepare X/day/3 in the arena, why is it self-evident that a Pearl of Power does not return to you 1/3 of the appropriate spell levels? What I am asking is, why is this not under discussion? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Purely rhetorical question: Why have Caterane/the Council make very important house rules simply to have them overcome through the incremental expenditure of 1,000 gp? [500 gp with a bonus feat.] And what is the point of testing builds if with a few thousand gold, you can turn your wizard into a spontaneous caster with a full spell list through the purchase and interpretation of an item that was never intended to function that way in core D&D? Rhetorical answer: Cat has expressed that the idea of pearls makes him uneasy. Non-Rhetorical: 1) This does not create a spontaneous caster. The wizard has to spend 3 rounds +casting time to cast that fireball using pearl1. That's not something I would want to do, and I believe that answers the question of why anyone would by a pearl3. 2) You do not prepare X/day/3 to fight in the arena. You prepare spells normally, then are only allowed to cast 1/3rd of them. There is a huge difference. If you were to prepare X/day/3, then every wizard at TAO has prepared 3 times the ammount of spells they are allowed. 3) Once again, no one is using 2 pearls1 to rememorize a 2nd lv spell. example A) Now lets say auburn casts fly, and summon monster 3 reducing the spells/fight to 1. She could not at this point use a pearl1 to get a spell level back, since she has not cast any 1st level spells. Spells Memorized [4/4/4/3] 7 1] Lv. 0 [DC 13] - ghost sound1, acid splash, acid splash, resistance Lv. 1 [DC 14] - magic missile, magic missile, silent image, shocking grasp Lv. 2 [DC 15] - blindness/deafness, invisibility, scorching ray, acid arrow Lv. 3 [DC 16] - summon monster 3, extended acid arrow, fly example B) In another fight, Auburn casts fly and all of her 1st level spells, which is all of her spells per fight. She uses 2 pearl1s to recall the magic missiles. Buy the wording of the Pearl, the spells are rememorized as though they were never cast, so Auburns spells memorized now looks like this Spells Memorized [4/4/4/3] 7 ???] Lv. 0 [DC 13] - ghost sound1, acid splash, acid splash, resistance Lv. 1 [DC 14] - magic missile, magic missile, silent image, shocking grasp Lv. 2 [DC 15] - blindness/deafness, invisibility, scorching ray, acid arrow Lv. 3 [DC 16] - summon monster 3, extended acid arrow, fly The only spells missing is fly, grasp and image. If you didn't read the spells/fight at the top, and just looked at the spells cast, it would seem that Auburn could cast a 2nd. level spell. Now if this were a table top game, she could cast acid arrow, and save the magic missiles for the next encounter. Why are we trying to ban that from COCO?
MindWandererB 12-30-05, 04:11 PM	My 2 cents on the PoP debate: The PoP was designed to let you cast a certain spell twice in one day. Because of the 1/3 rule, it's also functioning as a boost to versatility, which doesn't make any sense. If they intended for it to work this way, they'd let it work for spontaneous spellcasters. Casting Summon Monster II, recalling it, and using the spell levels to cast two Magic Missiles is grossly different from the pearl's intended function. For instance, a strategy that might work for my druid if she had a PoP: she casts Cat's Grace, then later realizes that Resist Energy might be a good idea. In D&D, she could cast the Resist Energy (and then recall it, if desired), but in the CoCo, she could recall the Cat's Grace and "use" it to cast Resist Energy instead. This doesn't make a whole lot of sense. In fact, it makes the PoP far more powerful than normal--say I'm a wizard, and I use the PoP to recall an Extended Mage Armor that I prebuffed with (in fact, I can prebuff the recall). In D&D, this would be idiotic, since there's little point in casting it twice. But in the CoCo, it's basically like getting an extra two spell levels. If the objective is to keep the CoCo as much like real D&D as possible, this useage fails miserably. I personally think PoPs should work like this: once you cast the spell, it counts against your 1/3 spell levels. Period. You can't get those spell levels back. But, if you use a PoP, you can get the spell back, and that particular spell, having already been cast, has already been "paid for," so you can cast it again without conting against your 1/3.
TroubleWolf 12-30-05, 04:16 PM	It seems to me as though large projectiles are meant to deal extra damage, but then why do they add those extra lines in about "returning to normal size" and "doing damage based on size?" If they delete that, it's 100% clear. Bah! It's a really screwy way of saying it. They should have worded it: Any affected item that leaves your possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage. While individual projectiles fired from a projectile weapon do revert to their normal size, they still do damage based on the size of the weapon, not the size of the ammunition.
lonewolf 12-30-05, 04:18 PM	In an attempt to bring something new into the CoCo I´ve created Kitty. Any Input is appreciated.
Snommelp 12-30-05, 04:21 PM	In an attempt to bring something new into the CoCo I´ve created Kitty. Any Input is appreciated. My input: I like him! I made a Pseudodragon once upon a time; he didn't do too well. That's mainly because I forgot that you can't summon things in midair, so he was built to drop feather token boats on people. I'm sure your dragon will do better than mine did.
Vathelokai 12-30-05, 04:21 PM	I personally think PoPs should work like this: once you cast the spell, it counts against your 1/3 spell levels. Period. You can't get those spell levels back. But, if you use a PoP, you can get the spell back, and that particular spell, having already been cast, has already been "paid for," so you can cast it again without conting against your 1/3. I see and understand you point, but that is also not how the pearl is supposed to funtion. It does not bestow the spell like ability (which is what spells without spell slots are) to cast a spell. It restores it fully. If you were in a table top game, and were under a geas to only use 1/3rd of your spells in an encouter, then i think this would be a legit way to re-organize spells to be more versitile.
Vathelokai 12-30-05, 04:28 PM	In an attempt to bring something new into the CoCo I´ve created Kitty. Any Input is appreciated. I've been playing a wyrmling brass dragon for a while, and I can point out a few things. Once you put someone to sleep, there is almost no way to CDG them. Your damage output is too low. Buy a tiny greataxe. x3 crit, you can't miss with a CDG so the negative attack modifer won't matter. On a similar note, I don't see anyway you could take out an elf, and they are about 33% of Gladius' population. Maybe a bag of tricks, or a necklace of fireballs. A potion of bears endurance will up your sleep dc and your hp.
Snommelp 12-30-05, 04:33 PM	I've been playing a wyrmling brass dragon for a while, and I can point out a few things. Once you put someone to sleep, there is almost no way to CDG them. Your damage output is too low. Buy a tiny greataxe. x3 crit, you can't miss with a CDG so the negative attack modifer won't matter. On a similar note, I don't see anyway you could take out an elf, and they are about 33% of Gladius' population. Maybe a bag of tricks, or a necklace of fireballs. A potion of bears endurance will up your sleep dc and your hp. Kitty does have access to Magic Fang. You're right though, elves could pose a problem. And duergar; they're immune to poison. I think the bag of tricks might be a good investment, lonewolf.
lonewolf 12-30-05, 05:00 PM	Immunity to magic sleep effects, Elves are not immune to sleep poison because it is not magical. Duergar however could really be a problem. And I know that CDG could be a real problem, but if I use the Sting to do it I immediately deliver poison again, so thats better than a greataxe.
Book5 12-30-05, 05:03 PM	Book? When you use Epic stuff (which we don't use in the CoCo, seeing as level 20 is our cap), then yes, you will start to see skills being used in powerful ways. That argument won't convince me that your level 4 character gets to turn a skill into Quickdraw and more. oh quible, "Tan has to be epic to use a skill to replace a feat" is hardly gonna convince me that Im outa line. We are going to deal with that eventually. Not when Tumble kicks the dodge feats scrawny butt anyday .. for pure action value.. no it doesnt serve as a rec or anything.. thats why "your right" pal. A skill can't replace a feat - but the feat is more than one action adjustment. Its a req. In dodge's case its the root of a tree. Quickdraw lets you throw at full rate - slight of hand doesnt. Similar - but differnt. And DC 30 is hardly "quasi-epic." At ECL 4, Hennan's already got +15 to Perform, meaning that he can beat a DC 25 roughly half of the time and DC 30 roughly 25% of the time. At ECL 4. Your own Tan (also ECL 4) has +13 to Hide; almost as good. No, DC 30 is most definitely not "quasi-epic." Especially not here. Ok "High end." Only for the "Hoss" and the skill focused. I still see it standing right there. You have modifiers for hiding daggers and shruikens. Your base DCs for "palming" and base DCs for hiding.. plus modifiers for object of sizes dagger, shruiken, etc. Point the third: you quoted me, then put words into my mouth? For shame, Book. What you have quoted me as saying is most definitely not "yes at a +5 DC for a tool sized object, +10 for large object. +30 for tiny creature +50 for small creature, +70 medium creature, and +100 for large creature." but but but if I were to allow it, I'd have to fix it first. Your numbers are off, because DC 30 assumes a DC 10 for the Standard Action version. The only DC 10 use you have listed on your extended skill (of which several parts are not in my PHB...) is to palm a coin sized object, which a dagger is most definitely not. I was giving you an example of what I was hearing you say you would do If I was playing in your game. Is that "in line" with what you would do as a DM assuming someone wanted to perform a "Ledgerdemain" of which there could be said to be a missing DC. Performing a minor feat of legerdemain, similar to making a coin appear, also has a DC of 10 unless an observer is determined to note where the item was.
Snommelp 12-30-05, 05:21 PM	oh quible, "Tan has to be epic to use a skill to replace a feat" is hardly gonna convince me that Im outa line. We are going to deal with that eventually. Not when Tumble kicks the dodge feats scrawny butt anyday .. for pure action value.. no it doesnt serve as a rec or anything.. thats why "your right" pal. A skill can't replace a feat - but the feat is more than one action adjustment. Its a req. In dodge's case its the root of a tree. Quickdraw lets you throw at full rate - slight of hand doesnt. Similar - but differnt. Um... you are aware that Fighting Defensively hurts your Attack bonus, yes? Add to that the fact that you can use Dodge with the ability to fight defensively, and we are talking about something completely different; you want to make Sleight of Hand replace Quickdraw, from the way you are talking. Also: you seemed very interested in getting another perspective, but now that Vathelokai has sided with me, you choose to ignore those arguments and focus on mine? To wit, Vathelokai has said that this use of Sleight of Hand is beyong the scope of the rules. The rules never intended Sleight of Hand to be used in this way (if that is not what you meant, Vath, please correct me). I was giving you an example of what I was hearing you say you would do If I was playing in your game. Is that "in line" with what you would do as a DM assuming someone wanted to perform a "Ledgerdemain" of which there could be said to be a missing DC.Yes, it could be said that there is a missing DC. However, just because it could be said doesn't mean it would be correct to say it. Once again, I ask that you prove that there is a problem before you throw solutions around. I see no problem; and if it is not broken, why are you trying to fix it? Performing a minor feat of legerdemain, similar to making a coin appear, also has a DC of 10 unless an observer is determined to note where the item was.Quickdrawing a dagger is hardly a minor feat of ledgermain! A minor feat of ledgermain would be making a shuriken disappear as if by magic, not drawing a weapon quickly enough to be able to make a full attack with it. Also, this is hardly a "quibble," as you called it. If it was, you and I would hardly be arguing so strongly about it. This is in fact a rules debate which could have a drastic effect on the arena and all of the characters therein; if we allow Sleight of Hand to replace Quickdraw, who would pick the feat? Who would choose the feat when they could use the skill instead and gain not only the combat benefit of the feat, but the ability to make money as well?
Vathelokai 12-30-05, 06:08 PM	To wit, Vathelokai has said that this use of Sleight of Hand is beyong the scope of the rules. The rules never intended Sleight of Hand to be used in this way (if that is not what you meant, Vath, please correct me).I say that the normal rules were not intended to work that way. The epic rules 'seem' to be intended to work that way. I can see quickdrawing a shuriken (as it is coin like) with slight of hand, but not much else. I think elaboration, and new uses for the base lv. slight of hand is definitely a house rule.
Vathelokai 12-30-05, 06:15 PM	Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook Once a wizard understands a new spell, she can record it into her spellbook. Time: The process takes 24 hours, regardless of the spell’s level. Space in the Spellbook: A spell takes up one page of the spellbook per spell level. Even a 0-level spell (cantrip) takes one page. A spellbook has one hundred pages. Materials and Costs: Materials for writing the spell cost 100 gp per page. Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for the spells she gains for free at each new level. How does the time requirement work here? I've never seen anyone put more than 7 spells in a spell book in one week, but are they simply not allowed to? Do you have to take a full week off to scribe (just like crafting)? The crafting rules are tweaked to make it possible to craft items in a reasonable time; does the same logic apply to scribing?
Usurpator 12-30-05, 06:17 PM	My opinion on the Pearl of Power debate: I am with Vathelokai and Snommelp. Pearls recall spells, both in regular games and both in CoCo. Spellcasters are only allowed to use 1/3rd of their potential each fight in CoCo. The workings of pearls don't intefere with that rule at all. It only inteferes if you think that pearls recall 'spell slots', which they do not. Okay, counterexample to clear up my position: What would happen to the spells castable per fight if a spellcaster recalls a spell he has cast as a prebuff as his first action in a fight?
Book5 12-30-05, 06:46 PM	Prebuff and 1/3. I thought the prebuff came out of a 2/3rd total. Meaning that if you recall a prebuff.. (what could you recall that you wouldnt already getting the benefit for.. oh wait) You say: Prebuff Earlier today you cast a fireball. Later, in the arena you use a PoP. Does that use allow you to cast that prebuffed spell as a prebuff spell too? Adding the spells levels to the number that you can cast in that arena fight? I dont think so. I think it gives you another option.. that you would already be under the effect of or could have gotten to just as easily via not casting an instant as a prebuff and then wasting a PoP to cast regain access to it.
TheMagister 12-30-05, 07:02 PM	I personally think PoPs should work like this: once you cast the spell, it counts against your 1/3 spell levels. Period. You can't get those spell levels back. But, if you use a PoP, you can get the spell back, and that particular spell, having already been cast, has already been "paid for," so you can cast it again without conting against your 1/3. That's it exactly. That's exactly how a PoP should be used in the Arena with the 1/3 rule. It fits the description and the intent of the item perfectly. I hesitate to say this, but feel that I must: The only thing that it DOESN'T fit is the "PoPs recall spell levels"-side-of-the-debate's desire for power. @Vathelokai - I hear your points, and cannot agree. It is clearly stated by MindWandererB how they should work, and that statement satisfies all the criteria in both the item description and the workings of the CoCo. In my opinion, your interpretation, however "workable" it may be in the CoCo, is power-hungry munchkinism. (Yes, that's why we're here, but there should be a self-imposed limit!) TM
Snommelp 12-30-05, 07:12 PM	The only thing that it DOESN'T fit is the "PoPs recall spell levels"-side-of-the-debate's desire for power. @Vathelokai - I hear your points, and cannot agree. It is clearly stated by MindWandererB how they should work, and that statement satisfies all the criteria in both the item description and the workings of the CoCo. In my opinion, your interpretation, however "workable" it may be in the CoCo, is power-hungry munchkinism. (Yes, that's why we're here, but there should be a self-imposed limit!) I would hesitate to say that your opponents have a desire for power. After all, TM, I am your opponent for this debate, and none of my characters use pearls. Of course, I am starting to see both sides of the argument, so it could merely be that I am on Vathelokai's side still out of stubborness...
TheMagister 12-30-05, 07:18 PM	I did hesitate to say it, but only because it was moderately inflammatory. I'm not eagerly awaiting Vathelokai's no-doubt impassioned reply. I do feel that what I wrote is correct, however, in spirit if not in truth. (I'm NOT them, so I am taking a chance with the assertation that they are power-hungry because I cannot know their minds.) The right way is so obvious once MindWandererB had found such an excellent way to commit the thought to words. TM
Ariel23 12-30-05, 07:25 PM	My 2 cents on the PoP debate: The PoP was designed to let you cast a certain spell twice in one day. Because of the 1/3 rule, it's also functioning as a boost to versatility, which doesn't make any sense. If they intended for it to work this way, they'd let it work for spontaneous spellcasters. They did intend for it to work that way, except they priced it at 20,000 gp and called it a Ring of Wizardry. :pbbbtt: I guess let me put it like this: This issue does not have an obvious RAW/FAQ/RAI solution (how could the RAI possibly be conceived for a spell-point environment that doesn't exist in D&D?). It clearly requires our discussion, and likely a vote and final decision by the powers that be. Yet, even if it did have an answer in the RAW, we can still consider whether or not the item is overpowered in CoCo or requires reinterpretation to jibe with the 1/3 rule. The intent of the core rules does not always have the intended effect in CoCo, or any home game. This is no different. We're here to try out builds, not prove or refute the efficacy of magic items. Gate and Psychic Reformation are obviously useful, and AFAIK no one disputes that there's an issue with either the RAW or RAI, yet they have been banned. At low ECLs, one spell (level) can have extreme significance. This is meta-meta-gaming at its finest: Why is there a 1/3 rule? [There is a reason.] Should we allow pearls to circumvent that reason? I don't believe this is a question of what is the "right" or "wrong" interpretation of pearls of power in CoCo...the question is How do we want them implemented? It is our choice, we are not a slave to the RAW, which is made clear by the arena casting rules. Like it or not, we are on a spell-point system now. We are not playing in a RAW world--it would be futile to assume that the RAW will always blend seamlessly into that world.The spell point system dramatically expands the versatility of the spellcaster... In effect, spell points make all classes work more like the sorcerer... In general, spellcasters become more powerful...
Book5 12-30-05, 07:39 PM	Um... you are aware that Fighting ... A Also: you seemed very ... B Yes, it could be said ... C Quickdrawing a dagger is hardly a minor feat ... D Also, this is hardly ... E A - :nonono: not replace, just accessorize! The skill does not replace the feat and I never said it did. The feat always works whereas skill doesnt. You cant master take ten a free action no matter how you slice it. You would have to have a +30.. 35 to actually "replace the feat" in any sense. Even then you still dont get the "use thrown weapons at full rate" option. Thats not in the skill or in anything I said... about slight of hand. B - actually I replied directly to Vath, then to you. And am still distilling the two opinions together. I will consildate with my next reply if your that concerned about it. C - Actually I'll go ahead and say that there are DCs missing and lines left out all over the rules, but Im curious have either of you looked in the faq? errata? Rules of the game? I havent yet :D I would but Im sure no matter what I say you will take it as trying to get a free feat. I just want to do what the skill should let you do! Suspicious and snarky much people! D - Yeah, a minor feat it is not. No DC 10 thing here. Size modifiers, plus the -20 penalty. I mean you know your saying "hiding" an object "aka stowing an obect" takes a standard action normally. Not move-e, standard. That means the skill lets me put it away (remember daggers are listed for the hiding. "all slight of hand can be free at -20" but I cant do the.. exact oposite set of physical actions (that takes less time oddly) and can be done as a free action with a move by any shmuck with +1 BAB. E - How about "lovely fiddle" the feats a rec, it gives you the attack rate thing.. it never fails. big differences in my minds. The skill already makes you money so yeah "and makes you money" its RAW.
Usurpator 12-30-05, 07:50 PM	Prebuff and 1/3. Earlier today you cast a fireball. Later, in the arena you use a PoP. Does that use allow you to cast that prebuffed spell as a prebuff spell too? Adding the spells levels to the number that you can cast in that arena fight? I dont think so. I think it gives you another option.. that you would already be under the effect of or could have gotten to just as easily via not casting an instant as a prebuff and then wasting a PoP to cast regain access to it. Exactly! Recalling a prebuffed spell does not give you more spell levels to use per fight, it does give you more options (an extra spell to use from). The same is true for recalling spells you used in a fight as well, only you are regaining your spell levels per fight simultaneously. You might certainly cast an extended mage armor, and then recall it when it is dispelled during the fight. This does *not* give you more spell levels per fight. If you cast and recall mage armor during the fight, you do get back the spell level. How you use that level is a matter of choice. If you recall the prebuffed spell, you are not suddenly forced to use it when you cast your next spell any more than you are forces to use a recalled spell used during a fight.
Usurpator 12-30-05, 08:00 PM	I guess let me put it like this: This issue does not have an obvious RAW/FAQ/RAI solution (how could the RAI possibly be conceived for a spell-point environment that doesn't exist in D&D?). It clearly requires our discussion, and likely a vote and final decision by the powers that be. Yet, even if it did have an answer in the RAW, we can still consider whether or not the item is overpowered in CoCo or requires reinterpretation to jibe with the 1/3 rule. I tried to explain this as best as I could, but a pearl of power does not give back 'spell-points' (just see my counter-example). It restores a spell to memory and the per fight potential that goes with it if you recall a spell during a fight. This whole direction of the argument is inherently flawed. I do agree that a pearl of power is not in accordance with the one-third rule, but for a whole different reason: a true 'CoCo' pearl of power should only give back 1/3rd of the spell's level in 'spell points' while it recalls the spell. But that is a cumbersome and unworkable solution. If pearls of power could be used up to three times per day in normal games (and 1/day in CoCo) we wouldn't be having this discussion. Are pearls overpowered in CoCo? I say 'no'. Well, I rather say 'not exactly', scrolls/powerstones are more overpowered than pearls in the CoCo enviroment. They are currently providing spellcasters with 10-30 spell slots per fight, and the primary way spellcasters work around the 1/3 limit. Pearls of power play only second fiddle to that.
Usurpator 12-30-05, 08:10 PM	That's it exactly. That's exactly how a PoP should be used in the Arena with the 1/3 rule. It fits the description and the intent of the item perfectly. Nope, I don;t think that's it at all. Recalling the spell AND regaining 1/3 of its level in spell potential, rounded up. That would fit the intent of CoCo and the item perfectly. The CoCo rule is about limiting any repeated use item/power/spell to 1/3rd their normal level. Unfortunately, it has zero effect on those pesky 1/day use pearls, which makes them operate at full effect. But so do many other items. Should Hands of Glory be banned for that reason?
Ayrynthyn 12-30-05, 08:14 PM	I think it's more than fine the way Vath and Snomhelp and the others has described...bear with me here a moment, while i lay this out so i can see it... Round 6... bob the Mage casts Magic Missile, and he's cast 4 levels of spells Spells memorized: [5/5/4] 0:[DC=16] Detect Magic, Daze, Daze, Daze, Resistance 1:[DC=17] True Strike, [s]Magic Missile, Sleep, Shield, Expeditious Retreat 2:[DC=18] See Invisibility, Invisibility, Hideous Laughter, Hideous Laughter Round 7... Bob the Mage uses PoP to recall Sleep, and it's "just as if he never cast the spell" Spells memorized: [5/5/4] 0:[DC=16] Detect Magic, Daze, Daze, Daze, Resistance 1:[DC=17] True Strike, [s]Magic Missile, Sleep, Shield, Expeditious Retreat 2:[DC=18] See Invisibility, Invisibility, Hideous Laughter, Hideous LaughterRound 8...hhmm.... by bob's count, he's only fired off 3 levels worth of spells, and he still has 2 remaining...perfect. Bob casts Hideous Laughter Spells memorized: [5/5/4] 0:[DC=16] Detect Magic, Daze, Daze, Daze, Resistance 1:[DC=17] True Strike, [s]Magic Missile, Sleep, Shield, Expeditious Retreat 2:[DC=18] See Invisibility, Invisibility, Hideous Laughter, Hideous Laughter ... this is what you guys are argueing against, right? They want to spend 1000 gold (1/3 of their starting max), to take two rounds to have the opportunity to cast one of the spells that they memorized for the day. I definatly dont see this as game breaking. With 5 points here, he can only ever cast 2 2nd level spells per enoucnter. Regardless of how ever many pearls of power 1s he owns. I proably would have opted for 1000 gp worth of scrolls or tats which you could have any spell you want and use more than one of in an encounter, but thats me, and i dont play a mage (and honestly havent had much success in the arena anyway). Im trying to find a scenario in my head where the 1000 gold spent for the ability to do this seems like... not enough cash. Like an uber bargoon or something, and i dont see it. Rings of wizardry are really getting the short end of the stick with the 1/3 rule (since they only double the 4 + Int spells memorizable to 8 + Int at 20th level), and then you 1 third it... you get a net gain of 1 extra spell level castable, but you can memorize 4 extra 1st level spells giving you that much more flexablity.
Vathelokai 12-30-05, 08:22 PM	The only thing that it DOESN'T fit is the "PoPs recall spell levels"-side-of-the-debate's desire for power. @Vathelokai - I hear your points, and cannot agree. It is clearly stated by MindWandererB how they should work, and that statement satisfies all the criteria in both the item description and the workings of the CoCo. In my opinion, your interpretation, however "workable" it may be in the CoCo, is power-hungry munchkinism. (Yes, that's why we're here, but there should be a self-imposed limit!) I did hesitate to say it, but only because it was moderately inflammatory. I'm not eagerly awaiting Vathelokai's no-doubt impassioned reply. I do feel that what I wrote is correct, however, in spirit if not in truth. (I'm NOT them, so I am taking a chance with the assertation that they are power-hungry because I cannot know their minds.) The right way is so obvious once MindWandererB had found such an excellent way to commit the thought to words. TMI am of two minds about this. I freely admit that as the Guildmaster of TAO, I have a personal stake, but I like to think that I put the rules first. My endless argueing about this is provoked by two things; 1)This is how pearls have been used since Living Gladius began and we've never had a problem. 2)If we use mindwanderer's method for pearls, then we are writing a house rule. If we can run CoCo without house rules, I would be much happier. As Usurpator stated, wizards already use scrolls to mimic spontaneous casting, and many fights blow through 10+ spell levels. Using a pearl to gain an extra spell is not that big of a deal (at least I think so.) Also, there is MadCow's interpret of the 1/3rd rule: As long as you have 2/3rds of your spells left at the end of the fight, then you can do whatever you want. I don't believe this is a question of what is the "right" or "wrong" interpretation of pearls of power in CoCo...the question is How do we want them implemented? It is our choice, we are not a slave to the RAW, which is made clear by the arena casting rules. Like it or not, we are on a spell-point system now. We are not playing in a RAW world--it would be futile to assume that the RAW will always blend seamlessly into that world.I completely agree. How to implement... This obviously needs a vote.
TheMagister 12-30-05, 08:23 PM	Nope, I don;t think that's it at all. Recalling the spell AND regaining 1/3 of its level in spell potential, rounded up. That would fit the intent of CoCo and the item perfectly. The CoCo rule is about limiting any repeated use item/power/spell to 1/3rd their normal level. Unfortunately, it has zero effect on those pesky 1/day use pearls, which makes them operate at full effect. But so do many other items. Should Hands of Glory be banned for that reason? And that is where mine and yours opinions will not mesh. Spell levels, once spent, should stay gone. Actual SPELLS, recalled via a magic item, do not suffer the same restriction, and can be cast again at no cost, since they've already been "paid for". Pearls of Power don't restore spell slots, spell points, or spell potential. They quite specifically restore a spell cast to memory as if it had not been cast. That is all that they say they do, and that is all that they SHOULD do. Anything else is...well, (flinch) power-gaming. Point the second: Of course one shouldn't ban the Hand of Glory. Its a spell from an item. That's a good way of looking at the PoP issue. PoPs function just like items that provide a character with a spell that they can cast 1/day. It just so happens that there are restrictions on what that spell is (must be a certain level, must have been cast during that day). So, a CoCo definition of a PoP would be something like: Pearl of Power: Recast spell X 1/day. Spell X must be a spell that matches the power level of the Pearl of Power, and must have been cast by the user previously that day. What do you guys think of that? TM TM
NiQil 12-30-05, 08:29 PM	Ok...I just gotta ask....am I the only one sitting here reading the PoP discussion and thinking "Maybe we should just ditch the 1/3 rule."? It seems to cause *so many problems like this....and, as far as I have seen, all the 1/3 rule really does is cause a caster to spend *more gold on expendables to get around it. Seems like a "core" arena might want to reconsider this at some point. There is always going to be the "casters will rule all" argument, but yanno what? In tabletop games, they *do rule all. That's the reality. Melee characters always come in second to casters in tabletop games as they advance in levels. I realize the 1/3 rule is an attempt to equal things out, but at what cost? How many headaches do we create (like this whole PoP thing) that are strictly because of the 1/3 rule? How many pure casters do we actually have in the arena, anyhow? I might take a look. I get the impression that pure casters are a rarity for this reason...maybe I'm wrong. And by pure casters, I am *NOT* counting clerics and druids, who are capable of surviving this environment in ways that wizards, sorcerers, psions and wilders aren't. Now, all of that being said, I can deal with the 1/3 rule. It just causes *so many headaches....at what point is enough enough?
Vathelokai 12-30-05, 08:29 PM	Pearls of Power don't restore spell slots, spell points, or spell potential. They quite specifically restore a spell cast to memory as if it had not been cast. Ummm... I think it highly illogical that it restores the spell to memory, but not the ability to cast it. The ability to cast it again is what Usurpator, Snommelp and myself have been calling "potiential." That's a good way of looking at the PoP issue. PoPs function just like items that provide a character with a spell that they can cast 1/day. It just so happens that there are restrictions on what that spell is (must be a certain level, must have been cast during that day). So, a CoCo definition of a PoP would be something like: Pearl of Power: Recast spell X 1/day. Spell X must be a spell that matches the power level of the Pearl of Power, and must have been cast by the user previously that day. What do you guys think of that? What I think of that is that it is a different item then a pearl of power, and should cost 15 credits to create one. :)
TheMagister 12-30-05, 08:32 PM	If we use mindwanderer's method for pearls, then we are writing a house rule. If we can run CoCo without house rules, I would be much happier. What we would be writing would be a clarification, not a house rule. Finding something that is being done incorrectly and changing it so that it is correct is not "house ruling", it's being fair and using the RAW as it was intended: to balance the game. As they have been used in the past, PoPs were a little overpowered. In my opinion, they were overpowered because they were excellent investments. For example: A scroll scriber has to take a feat, and then has to continually burn xp/gp to upkeep his versatility and power. This xp/gp drain never goes away, and the cost scales with his caster level and the level of the spells he wishes to have constant access to. Scrolls can be obtained without xp expenditure, but then the gp cost becomes more than just prohibitive. A PoP is a one-time investement that (as it was being used) allowed a caster to cast a variety of spells (advantage over scrolls) with only a one-time gp cost (only gp is necessary to obtain this item). It eventually pays for itself many times over. My examples aren't always the best, but I think this is a reasonable one. TM
Vathelokai 12-30-05, 08:32 PM	How many pure casters do we actually have in the arena, anyhow? I might take a look. Now, all of that being said, I can deal with the 1/3 rule. It just causes *so many headaches....at what point is enough enough? I believe there are 5 or so pure casters above ECL5; 3 at TAO, 1 at EHTC, and Uhme. And as much as I don't like the 1/3rd rule, I don't see it going anywhere.
TheMagister 12-30-05, 08:34 PM	Ummm... I think it highly illogical that it restores the spell to memory, but not the ability to cast it. The ability to cast it again is what Usurpator, Snommelp and myself have been calling "potiential." What I think of that is that it is a different item then a pearl of power, and should cost 15 credits to create one. :) :) Now you're just being silly. All I did was reword what a PoP already does. And have you not been reading my previous posts? "Ummm... I think it highly illogical that it restores the spell to memory, but not the ability to cast it. The ability to cast it again is what Usurpator, Snommelp and myself have been calling "potiential."" I clearly addressed this in earlier posts. If I have to repeat myself in every post, I'll never make one! TM
Vathelokai 12-30-05, 08:35 PM	A PoP is a one-time investement that (as it was being used) allowed a caster to cast a variety of spells (advantage over scrolls) with only a one-time gp cost (only gp is necessary to obtain this item). It eventually pays for itself many times over. That's true, but having to run and hide for 2+ rounds to do it seems like a fair trade to me. I clearly addressed this in earlier posts. If I have to repeat myself in every post, I'll never make one!Nope... missed that apparently, but I have been up for nearly 80 hours. See, I've been having some bronchitis, and the doctors put me on a steriod so I can breathe... side effect is that I can't sleep... ever. I should be better tomorrow. But really, I honestly think that the system you describe is different that what a PoP does.
TheMagister 12-30-05, 08:45 PM	It's NOT a fair trade. Name another class that would have an easier time getting those 2+ rounds needed to gain back nearly all of their spellcasting potential. Spellcasters are the most potent delayers in the Arena, and with only a few spells. Invisibility. Expeditious Retreat. Web. Entangle. Fly. Levitate. All but Fly are available to a 3rd level caster. I fail to see how you fail to see, if you catch my meaning. Sorry to hear about your bronchitis. Hope you feel better and that you don't crash too hard when you come down. I've been there. It ain't pretty. TM
Ayrynthyn 12-30-05, 09:35 PM	It's NOT a fair trade. Name another class that would have an easier time getting those 2+ rounds needed to gain back nearly all of their spellcasting potential. Spellcasters are the most potent delayers in the Arena, and with only a few spells. Invisibility. Expeditious Retreat. Web. Entangle. Fly. Levitate. All but Fly are available to a 3rd level caster. I fail to see how you fail to see, if you catch my meaning. Sorry to hear about your bronchitis. Hope you feel better and that you don't crash too hard when you come down. I've been there. It ain't pretty. TM a Level 3 Grey Elf wizard with a 20 Int gets 3 castable levels per day ([4]/4/2). He can only possibly cast 1 second level spell. Give him 3 pearls of power 1 (yes 3 he spent all his starting cash on 3 pearls of power), and he can still only cast 1 second level spell from memory... i can play it out for you if you wish Round 1 ... bob the Mage casts Magic Missile, and he's cast 1 levels of spells Spells memorized: [4/4/2] 0:[DC=16] Detect Magic, Daze, Daze, Daze, Resistance 1:[DC=17] True Strike, [s]Magic Missile, Sleep, Expeditious Retreat 2:[DC=18] Web, InvisibilityRound 2 ... bob is very smart, but not too wise, cast sleep on his Elven opponent Spells memorized: [4/4/2] 0:[DC=16] Detect Magic, Daze, Daze, Daze, Resistance 1:[DC=17] True Strike, [s]Magic Missile, Sleep, Expeditious Retreat 2:[DC=18] Web, InvisibilityRound 3 ... Hmm, no good... bob fishes out Pop1 #1 and recalls Magic Missile Spells memorized: [4/4/2] [Spell levels: 8; Cast: 1/3] 0:[DC=16] Detect Magic, Daze, Daze, Daze, Resistance 1:[DC=17] True Strike, Magic Missile, Sleep, Expeditious Retreat 2:[DC=18] Web, InvisibilityRound 4 ... bob panics and casts invisibility on himself Spells memorized: [4/4/2] [Spell levels: 8; Cast: 3/3] 0:[DC=16] Detect Magic, Daze, Daze, Daze, Resistance 1:[DC=17] True Strike, Magic Missile, Sleep, Expeditious Retreat 2:[DC=18] Web, InvisibilityRound 5 ... bob fishes out Pop1 #2, and recalls Magic Missile Spells memorized: [4/4/2] [Spell levels: 8; Cast: 2/3] 0:[DC=16] Detect Magic, Daze, Daze, Daze, Resistance 1:[DC=17] True Strike, Magic Missile, Sleep, Expeditious Retreat 2:[DC=18] Web, InvisibilityRound 6 ... his opponent is in perfect Web position, but bob has no 1st level spells to recall with his last PoP1, and only has 1 level left to cast. so he opts for a magic missile Spells memorized: [4/4/2] 0:[DC=16] Detect Magic, Daze, Daze, Daze, Resistance 1:[DC=17] True Strike, [s]Magic Missile, Sleep, Expeditious Retreat 2:[DC=18] Web, InvisibilityRound 7 ... still didn’t kill his opponent. bob fishes out Pop1 #3 (his last), and recalls Magic Missile Spells memorized: [4/4/2] [Spell levels: 8; Cast: 2/3] 0:[DC=16] Detect Magic, Daze, Daze, Daze, Resistance 1:[DC=17] True Strike, Magic Missile, Sleep, Expeditious Retreat 2:[DC=18] Web, InvisibilityRound 8 ... . Hmm, go for the kill, or get out of dodge. Bob decides, living is the better part of valor and looks to flee, cast Expeditious retreat Spells memorized: [4/4/2] 0:[DC=16] Detect Magic, Daze, Daze, Daze, Resistance 1:[DC=17] True Strike, Magic Missile, Sleep, [s]Expeditious Retreat 2:[DC=18] Web, Invisibility ...he would have been better off using 2 charges on a wand of magic missiles than the 3 grand he dropped on pearls.
Ariel23 12-30-05, 09:38 PM	That's a good way of looking at the PoP issue. PoPs function just like items that provide a character with a spell that they can cast 1/day. It just so happens that there are restrictions on what that spell is (must be a certain level, must have been cast during that day). But do they? 1) Actually an item would cast one and only one spell per day and would never change over the life of the item. The "restriction" on the PoP is that it can cast any spell the caster knows and has cast...much better than a one-use magic missile. 2) This is sort of like taking a 3/day item (1/day in arena) and splitting it up into 3 individual items each usable 1/day to circumvent the arena 1/3 rule. 3) I still don't understand this: Bonus spell ........ Spell level squared × 1,000 gp ..... Pearl of power No space limitation ..... Multiply entire cost by 2 ..... Ioun stoneWhy is a PoP not doubled in cost? It takes up no slot... I tried to explain this as best as I could, but a pearl of power does not give back 'spell-points' (just see my counter-example). It restores a spell to memory and the per fight potential that goes with it if you recall a spell during a fight. This whole direction of the argument is inherently flawed. The same is true for recalling spells you used in a fight as well, only you are regaining your spell levels per fight simultaneously. This must be semantics, then, and I wasn't trying to make a semantic argument. I was saying that a Pearl of Power circumvents the 1/3 spells houserule and do we want it do do that? I'm not saying powerstones/scrolls, etc don't. That's another discussion, also brought up by Caterane recently. Too bad he's moving at the moment.
TheMagister 12-30-05, 10:59 PM	a Level 3 Grey Elf wizard with a 20 Int gets 3 castable levels per day ([4]/4/2). He can only possibly cast 1 second level spell. Give him 3 pearls of power 1 (yes 3 he spent all his starting cash on 3 pearls of power), and he can still only cast 1 second level spell from memory... i can play it out for you if you wish... Totally not true! You're ignoring a very basic progression: bob casts invisibility (2/3) bob spends 2 rounds regaining 1 spell level during each round with pearls 1 & 2 (0/3) bob casts scorching ray (2/3) Bob regains a spell level with pearl 3 (1/3) bob casts scorching ray (3/3) There. That's three second level spells in 5 rounds. For a 3rd level caster. TM
Book5 12-30-05, 11:00 PM	Ok...I just gotta ask....am I the only one sitting here reading the PoP discussion and thinking "Maybe we should just ditch the 1/3 rule."? Now, all of that being said, I can deal with the 1/3 rule. It just causes *so many headaches....at what point is enough enough? Man, I think that every time I look at it, but I do still see the reasoning behind it. The problem with casters is: If the spells work - they own. If the spells fail - they die. I have often argued that fighters are more effective in table games because they do not have an "exhaustion" point. A caster has his good moments, and his out of energy moments. A fighter can hit with his primary ability all. day. long. In adventures where the DM doenst let give the player the leeway to rest and recuperate after every fight - kills those pesky mages off after a few waves. Basically a fighter is going to win vs 50 ecl one goblins.. unless too many crits get in the way.. A mage. Gets a couple chances to kill all of them - if that doesnt work right off ... then the caster is dead. What am I saying.. I dunno, just cominserating I guess.
Zevox 12-30-05, 11:17 PM	Totally not true! You're ignoring a very basic progression: bob casts invisibility (2/3) bob spends 2 rounds regaining 1 spell level during each round with pearls 1 & 2 (0/3) bob casts scorching ray (2/3) Bob regains a spell level with pearl 3 (1/3) bob casts scorching ray (3/3) There. That's three second level spells in 5 rounds. For a 3rd level caster. TM ...Except that he would have had to have cast first level spells to regain those spell levels, if I understand the argument up to this point right. They're not saying that the pearls are changed to simply restoring spell levels, but that they restore those levels in addition to the spells they restore when used to restore the spells. So Bob can't use 1st-level Pearls of Power without a first level spell having been cast for it to restore. Zevox
TheMagister 12-30-05, 11:43 PM	...Except that he would have had to have cast first level spells to regain those spell levels, if I understand the argument up to this point right. They're not saying that the pearls are changed to simply restoring spell levels, but that they restore those levels in addition to the spells they restore when used to restore the spells. So Bob can't use 1st-level Pearls of Power without a first level spell having been cast for it to restore. Zevox How completely right you are! But how strange that Bob could cast a 2nd level spell and recall it with a PoP 2 and then use the two spell levels to cast two first level spells... Or could cast one first level spell (a buff, most likely) and then recall it, and then cast, say, invisibility, and then recall two first level spell levels with two more PoP, thus refilling his spells per match, and then cast scorching ray. Its just not right. TM
Snommelp 12-31-05, 01:06 AM	How completely right you are! But how strange that Bob could cast a 2nd level spell and recall it with a PoP 2 and then use the two spell levels to cast two first level spells... Or could cast one first level spell (a buff, most likely) and then recall it, and then cast, say, invisibility, and then recall two first level spell levels with two more PoP, thus refilling his spells per match, and then cast scorching ray. Its just not right. TM This is where you and I don't see eye to eye, TM - I don't see any problem with it. Bob is still limited by the spells he has memorized and the spells he has cast; he can't use a level 1 pearl if he hasn't cast a level 1 spell, he can't use the recalled spell levels to cast spells he hasn't memorized, &c. Now, TM, I'm going to ask you the same thing I asked Book about the Sleight of Hand skill: is it broken? Do you have evidence to prove to us that there is something wrong with the way we have been doing things? Because the way I see it, you shouldn't throw solutions around if there isn't a problem. @ NiQil: were you here in the old CoCo? I was only here for the tail end, and the general consensus was that any non-caster facing a caster may as well not send tactics, because he was doomed to failure. Even with the 1/3 rule, casters do fairly well in the arena. The 1/3 rule is an instance of something perceived as broken (with evidence to support it) being fixed. Any argument you make now, I am fairly sure it was made then, when the rule came into effect. However, if you would like to argue against the 1/3 rule, then let us see what Caterane has to say.
Snommelp 12-31-05, 01:17 AM	Considering that the level 10 league is frozen, and also that there were no level 9 fights this week, how long do you suppose it will be until the level 11 league opens? I am guessing that by that time I will most definitely have the 32 credits needed to start a character at that level...
NiQil 12-31-05, 01:22 AM	This is where you and I don't see eye to eye, TM - I don't see any problem with it. Bob is still limited by the spells he has memorized and the spells he has cast; he can't use a level 1 pearl if he hasn't cast a level 1 spell, he can't use the recalled spell levels to cast spells he hasn't memorized, &c. Now, TM, I'm going to ask you the same thing I asked Book about the Sleight of Hand skill: is it broken? Do you have evidence to prove to us that there is something wrong with the way we have been doing things? Because the way I see it, you shouldn't throw solutions around if there isn't a problem. @ NiQil: were you here in the old CoCo? I was only here for the tail end, and the general consensus was that any non-caster facing a caster may as well not send tactics, because he was doomed to failure. Even with the 1/3 rule, casters do fairly well in the arena. The 1/3 rule is an instance of something perceived as broken (with evidence to support it) being fixed. Any argument you make now, I am fairly sure it was made then, when the rule came into effect. However, if you would like to argue against the 1/3 rule, then let us see what Caterane has to say. Nope...only been here since the tail end of either June or July...June I think. And I'm not necessarily campaigning to have the 1/3 rule removed...I'm just all about the path of least resistance if there is no clear cut solution. It would seem to me, in the case of the PoP issue, that TM is correct by the RAW, but that you and Vath are correct by CoCo rules....with the difference being the 1/3rd rule. I just had to throw the thought out there that I am sure was going through many people's head, because this is not the first time that I have seen debates spring up simply because of the effects of the 1/3 rule. Like I said....I can live with the 1/3 rule, though if it were up to me, it wouldn't be there. I have yet to meet a caster a properly-built monk can't cream 9 times out of 10, irregardless of level (again, not including clerics and druids...or CoDzilla, as is termed in other areas). I prefer melee types, so that's why I've stayed out of the PoP debate...doesn't really affect me. I just figured I would throw out there what I am sure a lot of people were thinking as they read everything, but no one else felt like voicing.
TheMagister 12-31-05, 01:22 AM	This is where you and I don't see eye to eye, TM - I don't see any problem with it. Bob is still limited by the spells he has memorized and the spells he has cast; he can't use a level 1 pearl if he hasn't cast a level 1 spell, he can't use the recalled spell levels to cast spells he hasn't memorized, &c. Now, TM, I'm going to ask you the same thing I asked Book about the Sleight of Hand skill: is it broken? Do you have evidence to prove to us that there is something wrong with the way we have been doing things? Because the way I see it, you shouldn't throw solutions around if there isn't a problem. Why do I care about the Sleight of Hand skill? j/k :) I haven't been here all that long (about 10 weeks) so it took me a while before I saw PoP in use...I think my first instance was Sdentch's Hunter fight with Grik and Kraegin. However, following other fights, I saw the mis-use and wondered, and now, when someone else has brought it up, I'm willing to rock the boat with them. (I know, but I still feel new enough here to not try to stir up trouble unless I think I have a rock-solid case. I'm 28, and still trying to grow a pair, I guess.) I have no problem with a PoP recalling a spell level, as long as that spell level is set aside to recast a spell that has already been cast in the arena/prebuff that day. My gripe is with the flexibility some are gaining by casting one first level spell and then recalling it, and then casting a different spell by using the recalled spell level. That defeats the intended purpose of the item. In my opinion, that constitutes brokenness. I'm no Logic person (all eagles are birds, so all birds are football players, or whatever), but I can tell when something isn't being used right. ^^ Wow...I just had a Forrest Gump moment: "Ah'm not a smaat mayun, but I know whut luv iyus." Ha! TM
Zevox 12-31-05, 01:39 AM	Okay, in an effort to help resolve the PoP situation, I've a little note to make about the potential prebuff problem (bolding mine on last sentence): Pre-Buffs do count against your spell slots or special ability uses that are available for the day, but they do not count against your per-fight 1/3 limit of spells. Prebuffs use their own 1/3 limit of your daily allotment. Since prebuffs use a seperate 1/3 of a caster's daily spell allotment from the arena 1/3, it could be ruled that, if Pearls of Power are allowed to return spell levels which weren't reserved for the use of the spells they returned, using them to restore a spell cast as a prebuff does not have the feared effect, since the prebuffs do not come from the 1/3 used in the arena. Hence using them to restore a prebuff would restore the spell and in effect its spell level, but as the spell level is from the prebuff 1/3 this level cannot be used during the fight. Just a thought to consider. Zevox
Ravashack 12-31-05, 04:31 AM	You know, there's something that's always bothered me about the Pearls of Power-- why they don't use this spell in making them? Mage’s Lucubration Transmutation Level: Wiz 6 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: Instantaneous You instantly recall any one spell of 5th level or lower that you have used during the past 24 hours. The spell must have been actually cast during that period. The recalled spell is stored in your mind as through prepared in the normal fashion. If the recalled spell requires material components, you must provide them. The recovered spell is not usable until the material components are available.
Vathelokai 12-31-05, 05:06 AM	Totally not true! You're ignoring a very basic progression: bob casts invisibility (2/3) bob spends 2 rounds regaining 1 spell level during each round with pearls 1 & 2 (0/3) bob casts scorching ray (2/3) Bob regains a spell level with pearl 3 (1/3) bob casts scorching ray (3/3) There. That's three second level spells in 5 rounds. For a 3rd level caster. TM I thought I covered this.. but once again. NO ONE is saying you can use 2 pearl1 to recall a 2nd level spell.But how strange that Bob could cast a 2nd level spell and recall it with a PoP 2 and then use the two spell levels to cast two first level spells...This dosn't seem strange to me. The two recalled spells are still in the wizards memory, and ready to cast. Only the 1/3rd rule prevents it. I guess that is our hang up. Or could cast one first level spell (a buff, most likely) and then recall it, and then cast, say, invisibility, and then recall two first level spell levels with two more PoP, thus refilling his spells per match, and then cast scorching ray. Once again.... you can only recall a spell you have cast. Just because you have recalled it, you do not have to cast it. My gripe is with the flexibility some are gaining by casting one first level spell and then recalling it, and then casting a different spell by using the recalled spell level. That defeats the intended purpose of the item.And this is the fundamental point that we disagree on.You know, there's something that's always bothered me about the Pearls of Power-- why they don't use this spell in making them? I've wondered that myself... I think it is because of the super high Caster Level requirement. That's another CoCo rule that is messing up this PoP thing. In CoCo, you can start ECL3 with craft wonderous and make 6 pearls. You would normally have to have an int of 40 to cast that many 1st level spells.
Vathelokai 12-31-05, 05:35 AM	(Regarding Kitty...) Elves are not immune to sleep poison because it is not magical. Duergar however could really be a problem. That's a funny thing I noticed about elves... In the racial description it says "Immune to magical sleep", but in the monster entry it says "Immunity to sleep spells and effects". I've always played it that elves physicly cannot sleep, but that seems like a GM call. And I know that CDG could be a real problem, but if I use the Sting to do it I immediately deliver poison again, so thats better than a greataxe. Well the sting makes your opponent make 2 low DC fort saves (DC 19 vs sleep, DC 11-13 vs death). With the greataxe you give them one DC 13-34 (avg 22) fort save vs. death. Against a fighter or other high fort character, the sleep thing isn't going to work so well. Straight fighters are never going to be CDG by a 1d3 dmg weapon. Monks and other mid fort types are only going to die on a roll of a 3 or 4.
NiQil 12-31-05, 05:46 AM	That's a funny thing I noticed about elves... In the racial description it says "Immune to magical sleep", but in the monster entry it says "Immunity to sleep spells and effects". I've always played it that elves physicly cannot sleep, but that seems like a GM call. That's how I've always played them as well...well, close, anyway....our tabletop game provides that while they *can sleep, they are in no way required to, and anyone playing an elf rarely, if ever, sleeps. Elves make good night watchmen. Get two elves in your party, and your set for the evening...one to watch while the other meditates. We've also always played them as immune to all sleep effects, period, since that seemed the intent behind the two different-worded entries. I don't have my PHB handy, but I believe that there is more mentioned than just the 'immune to magical sleep' portion of the entry, because I see nothing mentioned about their requirement of 4 hours of meditation, rather than 8 hours of sleep, in the SRD. Unless I just flat out missed it.
Vathelokai 12-31-05, 05:48 AM	I don't have my PHB handy, but I believe that there is more mentioned than just the 'immune to magical sleep' portion of the entry, because I see nothing mentioned about their requirement of 4 hours of meditation, rather than 8 hours of sleep, in the SRD. Unless I just flat out missed it. I'm not sure if they kept that after 2nd edition. It's not in the SRD anywhere. I don't have books to double check either.
lonewolf 12-31-05, 05:52 AM	That's a funny thing I noticed about elves... In the racial description it says "Immune to magical sleep", but in the monster entry it says "Immunity to sleep spells and effects". I've always played it that elves physicly cannot sleep, but that seems like a GM call. Then thats what I need. A GM call. If elves are indeed immune I will have to ditch this character. Well the sting makes your opponent make 2 low DC fort saves (DC 19 vs sleep, DC 11-13 vs death). With the greataxe you give them one DC 13-34 (avg 22) fort save vs. death. Against a fighter or other high fort character, the sleep thing isn't going to work so well. hmm I underestimated the crit damage of the greataxe. Its probably really better to CDG them with it.
Vathelokai 12-31-05, 05:55 AM	Another bizarre rules question, before CoCo spends 1/2 hour resetting itself... I was looking at psicrystals, and the stat block says they are diminuitive, but their stats are all listed as though they were a fine creature. Diminutive Construct Hit Dice: As master’s HD (hp 1/2 master’s) Initiative: +2 Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), climb 20 ft.* Armor Class: 16 (+4 size, +2 Dex*), touch 16, flatfooted 14 Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-17 Attack: - Full Attack: - Space/Reach: 1 ft./0 ft. Special Attacks: - Special Qualities: Construct traits, hardness 8, psicrystal granted abilities (improved evasion, personality, self-propulsion, share powers, sighted, telepathic link) Saves: As master’s saves Abilities: Str 1*, Dex 15*, Con -, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 10 Skills: Climb +14*, Listen +6, Move Silently +6, Search +2, Spot +6 Feats: Alertness Am I reading something wrong?
NiQil 12-31-05, 06:01 AM	I'm not sure if they kept that after 2nd edition. It's not in the SRD anywhere. I don't have books to double check either. Damn you, Vath...you made me go dig out my PHB and check LOL The reason it isn't in the SRD is that it is part of the fluff text. Elves do not sleep, as members of the other commons races do. Instead, an elf meditates in a deep trance for 4 hours a day. An elf resting in this fashion gains the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep. While meditating, an elf dreams, though these dreams are actually mental exercises that have become reflexive through years of practice. The Common word for an elf's meditation is "trance," as in "four hours of trance." Based on that text, it would appear that elves are immune to sleep, period. Also, with regard to the pseudodragon's sleep weapon, since it is a poison that just has the effect of sleep, I would say that elves are immune, based on the monster entry of being immune to sleep spells and effects. The sleep is clearly an effect of the poison taking hold (i.e failed save). Also, keep in mind that with a DC 14 base, that's still going to be a greater than 50% chance of successfully saving for most every character here. And that percentage will only get bigger as you advance, as I don't think your DC will advance as quickly as the saves will.
Vathelokai 12-31-05, 06:53 AM	I'm full of questions today... 1) I remember seeing something in the rules of gladius saying that intellegent magic items are treated as allies, since they have mental stats. Would it be possible to take an intellegent magic item as a cohort? This would be silly for min/max purposes, but would be interesting story. 2) Does deathwatch automaticly see thorough illusions?
Usurpator 12-31-05, 08:18 AM	@Magister: What you seem to suggest just seems weird to me. For example: a spellcaster that can cast three first and two 2nd lvl spells, can cast 3 'spell levels' per fight in CoCo. If he uses all his 'spell levels' to cast his three 1st lvl spells, according to your ideas, he has 'used' his second level spell ability to cast only first level spells, supposedly giving him an extra flexibility advantage, since he used those 'levels' from a source (his 2nd level casting ability) with which he could never cast 1st level spells in the first place. At least, that is what I am reading as the unfair flexibility advantage you are protesting against.
lonewolf 12-31-05, 08:31 AM	Also, keep in mind that with a DC 14 base, that's still going to be a greater than 50% chance of successfully saving for most every character here. And that percentage will only get bigger as you advance, as I don't think your DC will advance as quickly as the saves will. If you look at my character you´ll see that the DC for the Poison is 19 through increased Constitution and Ability Focus. Thats good enough for now, and I can further increase the DC through more Hitdice and a higher constitution. Certainly that can still become a major problem later on, but until then I can learn other ways how to win with class levels. A level of Babarian springs into mind. DC+2 during rage and more damage with CDG. :evillaugh
Usurpator 12-31-05, 08:35 AM	Okay, a hopefully crystal clear example of what Pearls of Power are supposed to do in CoCo: Gandalf the regular D&D wizard can cast the following spells: 5 1st, 2 2nd, 1 3rd He can thus cast 12 'spell levels' each day. Now suppose we give Gandalf 5 1st lvl pearls of power, 2 2nd lvl pearls of power, and 1 3rd lvl pearl of power. How much spells can Gandalf cast per day now? Exactly, 24 spells levels if he uses the pearls to recall his spells. Double his normal allotment. Saruman, on the other hand, is a CoCo wizard and can also cast: 5/2/1. In the arena Saruman can cast 4 spell levels per fight. Now suppose we give him the same supply of pearls as Gandalf. How many spell levels do you think he should be able to cast with help of those pearls? I think he should be able to double his spells castable just like Gandalf: meaning 8 spell levels per fight. Dracazar and the Magister would have poor Saruman only cast 4 spell levels worth, giving him an *additional* disadvantage over his Gandalf counterpart, this certainly does not equal *using the pearl of power as intended*, pearls of power are not only intended to recall spells, they are also intended to give spellcaster the ability to cast more spells per day than they normally could. This should hold true in CoCo as well. What is true, is that under the current rule Saruman gets to cast a whopping 16 spell levels, four times as much as his Gandalf counterpart, with his pearls. But that's not the fault of the pearls, that's the fault of the rounding problem when applying the 1/3rd rule on uses per day. And that is not a problem solely restricted to pearls of power, it also makes any 1/day items three times as cheap/powerful as 3/day magic items or abilities in CoCo. If any of you want to discuss the rounding problems the 1/3rd rule brings, feel free. But don't put an 'overpowered' or 'broken' claim just on the pearls. Put the same tag on things like Bags of Tricks, Hands of Glory, and a 1/day Barbarian rage as well.
Begferdeth 12-31-05, 03:31 PM	Ok, this PoP thing has a perfect fix already spoken for. The "lets you cast one spell again without it going against the 1/3 rule". It fits the description, it fits the 1/3 rule, it even makes it work more like it would in tabletop gaming. Getting it to let you cast a different spell is not the point of the item, casting one spell twice is. My vote is for that :) This slight of hand legerdemain thing... geez. Are you talking about stealing your own weapons? Thats a DC 40 check to do as a free action, and only works on small weapons. There would be no bonus for the daggers or 'coin-sized' items, since you arent hiding them, or palming them. This makes this use of the skill somewhat like the 'quickmount' ride option. If you succeeds, sure you have a dagger now. Make your full melee attack with your puny weapon. If you fail, you spend the normal action to do it, and I mangle you with a much-much-much larger weapon. I dont see any modifiers for larger weapons, and for a good reason... you dont draw a greatsword by a quick flick of the wrist. If you did, you would need a new wrist. Now for a new silly question... if I made a weredog, and took a npc class, could I get a lycanthrope in the ECL3 league? It would only be ECL 2 1/3 I think...
Macbrea 12-31-05, 04:17 PM	Weredog would be 1 level animal + 2 levels lycanthrope and must be a type of humanoid or giant so, must have 1 level of any of those races. So, minimum you could make a weredog is ECL 4.
MindWandererB 12-31-05, 04:35 PM	I was looking at psicrystals, and the stat block says they are diminuitive, but their stats are all listed as though they were a fine creature. Am I reading something wrong?Yes, you are. You're reading the modifiers wrong. Those are the correct values for a diminutive creature (+4 attack and AC, -12 grapple).
MindWandererB 12-31-05, 05:16 PM	Now suppose we give Gandalf 5 1st lvl pearls of power, 2 2nd lvl pearls of power, and 1 3rd lvl pearl of power.... Saruman, on the other hand, is a CoCo wizard and can also cast: 5/2/1. In the arena Saruman can cast 4 spell levels per fight. Now suppose we give him the same supply of pearls as Gandalf. How many spell levels do you think he should be able to cast with help of those pearls? I think he should be able to double his spells castable just like Gandalf: meaning 8 spell levels per fight. Actually, regardless of whose standpoint you are taking, Saruman gets a maximum of 20 spell levels, because he can recall each spell multiple times. Let me make another case of how the PoP doesn't work as intended. Let's say our friend Savior Die is now 11th level. His Int of 22 gives him spells per day of 6/6/5/4/3/2, total spell levels 76, spell levels per fight 26. He casts Shadow Walk, Blink, Displacement, Protection from Energy twice, Polymorph, and Fire Shield, exhausting all his spell levels on buffs. He then uses two PoP3 and a PoP6. He then dismisses Shadow Walk and casts six Blindness/Deafnesses. He used the PoPs to get his spell levels to work double-time: once as buffs, once as offense. In fact, if he used something other than Shadow Walk (say, Invisibility+Fly) that allowed him safe buffing without leaving the arena, he could pull this off multiple times, going offensive for just one round out of every ten, buffing with his available spell levels twice over before pulling out all the stops. Effective use of this strategy would allow a caster to effectively use every spell in their repertoire. This is most problematic for clerics, druids, and other warrior-casters, since they can recall a buff to cast a different buff, effectively bypassing the 1/3 rule almost completely.
DTFarstar 12-31-05, 05:34 PM	@MindWandererB : He would also have used 54,000 of his 66k for that level. Or 27,000gp and 2160 exp and a ton of time. You are right, PoP's are damn good, but anything over level 3 are really expensive.
TelinArtho 12-31-05, 05:41 PM	Actually, regardless of whose standpoint you are taking, Saruman gets a maximum of 20 spell levels, because he can recall each spell multiple times. Let me make another case of how the PoP doesn't work as intended. Let's say our friend Savior Die is now 11th level. His Int of 22 gives him spells per day of 6/6/5/4/3/2, total spell levels 76, spell levels per fight 26. He casts Shadow Walk, Blink, Displacement, Protection from Energy twice, Polymorph, and Fire Shield, exhausting all his spell levels on buffs. He then uses two PoP3 and a PoP6. He then dismisses Shadow Walk and casts six Blindness/Deafnesses. He used the PoPs to get his spell levels to work double-time: once as buffs, once as offense. In fact, if he used something other than Shadow Walk (say, Invisibility+Fly) that allowed him safe buffing without leaving the arena, he could pull this off multiple times, going offensive for just one round out of every ten, buffing with his available spell levels twice over before pulling out all the stops. Effective use of this strategy would allow a caster to effectively use every spell in their repertoire. This is most problematic for clerics, druids, and other warrior-casters, since they can recall a buff to cast a different buff, effectively bypassing the 1/3 rule almost completely. Okay, so our friend Savour Die has used three pearls (2 3rd, 1 6th), and had he crafted them himself, spent 4500*2 gp + 18000gp = 27000gp. If he had bought scrolls of the spells - it would be (and bear in mind, he could have crafted them...): Shadow Walk (lvl6, CL11) 1650gp Blink and Displacement (lvl3, CL5) 375gp each = 750gp 2x Protection from Energy (lvl3, CL5) 375gp each = 750gp Polymorph (lvl4, CL7) 700gp Fire Shield (lvl4, CL7) 700gp For a grand total of 3550gp. Bearing in mind that someone who is a wizard, would have scribe scroll as a bonus feat - so having that set of scrolls scribed is entirely possible - for half that cost. Even without scribing them though - you're looking at ~8 fights before that buffing sequence is less expensive. Bear in mind as well however, that the person who crafted those pearls had to sit out inactive for 3 weeks for the 2 pearls of power (3rd) and 6 weeks for the pearl of power (6th).
Vathelokai 12-31-05, 06:54 PM	Yes, you are. You're reading the modifiers wrong. Those are the correct values for a diminutive creature (+4 attack and AC, -12 grapple). Could someone be so kind as to direct me to the chart in the SRD that shows this? I can't find it anywhere.
Zevox 12-31-05, 06:59 PM	Could someone be so kind as to direct me to the chart in the SRD that shows this? I can't find it anywhere. Right under combat (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/combat.html) you'll find the size chart for AC/Attacks, and under Special Attacks (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/specialAttacks.html) in the Grapple entry it lists the grapple size modifiers. Zevox
Scribelords 12-31-05, 07:16 PM	A new Birthday has been added to the ever-growing Roster (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7048484&postcount=7). Ariel23 - March 26th In case many of the new players did not know, you receive 2o's on your birthday (and that's almost as good as money here). So if you have not already, send me your birthday and year. Thanks! Also, if any of you remember him, Dalton Onestone's Birthday is January 1st. (today or tomorrow, depending on where you are on the globe.) May everyone have a Happy New Year! -Scribelords
MitzaVolchenko 12-31-05, 09:48 PM	As dissolving touch, except your weapon is charged with acid until you make a successful attack. Your touch, claw, or bite is corrosive, and sizzling moisture visibly oozes from your natural weapon or hand. You deal 4d6 points of acid damage to any creature or object you touch with your successful melee touch attack. Acid you secrete denatures 1 round after use, losing all efficacy and ability to deal damage. You are immune to your own acid. Since the quality as listed under dissolving touch states that the effect goes away one round after the successful use, does that mean that someone using dissolving weapon with two or more attacks in the same round does the 4d6 multiple times including any possible AoO's for that round? Nothing in the FAQ, nothing in the Psionics errata. My opinion is that is a wee bit powerful for its level, but then I guess most people at that level are not throwing multiple attacks per round.
Zevox 12-31-05, 09:54 PM	Since the quality as listed under dissolving touch states that the effect goes away one round after the successful use, does that mean that someone using dissolving weapon with two or more attacks in the same round does the 4d6 multiple times including any possible AoO's for that round? Nothing in the FAQ, nothing in the Psionics errata. My opinion is that is a wee bit powerful for its level, but then I guess most people at that level are not throwing multiple attacks per round. I'd think not, since it specifically says that the weapon is charged "until you make a successful attack", implying that the ability is dischared after that attack. Zevox
Snommelp 12-31-05, 10:45 PM	The dissolving quality of the weapon goes away after the first attack. The acid created by the dissolving quality denatures after one round, so it only deals damage during the attack. That's why they mentioned it denaturing; usually, acid keeps burning.
SoulLord 12-31-05, 11:00 PM	My take on PoP do they break the 1/3 rule by allowing spellcasters to cast more spells? yes But so does scrolls, wands, Stones, Dorjes, rings of spell storing and the like. My take on it leave them as they are they restore the spell and the possibility to cast a new spell not nessesarily the one restored.
MitzaVolchenko 12-31-05, 11:35 PM	The dissolving quality of the weapon goes away after the first attack. The acid created by the dissolving quality denatures after one round, so it only deals damage during the attack. That's why they mentioned it denaturing; usually, acid keeps burning. My thoughts go both ways on this. The denaturing implies that it does not continue to do damage like, say, being lit on fire. However if the acid denatures after that round then it continues to be efficacious for that round's entirety. The statement that the effect is stored (charged) until successful hit I read as meaning that unlike Touch, Weapon [i]is[/] stored rather than being lost if not used in that round. The implication in Dissovling Touch is definitely for all attacks in that round, but the weapon version leaves me with a doubt. Going by RAW I'd have to say it does and let the debate go to the GM's final call.
TheMagister 01-01-06, 04:59 AM	Happy New Year from Texas, ya'll. It is 0400 here, and I'm at work. Have a blessed year, and be safe! TM
Usurpator 01-01-06, 08:28 AM	Weredog would be 1 level animal + 2 levels lycanthrope and must be a type of humanoid or giant so, must have 1 level of any of those races. So, minimum you could make a weredog is ECL 4. WereCOYOTE, that's just that much cooler.... ;) Look here Oh, yes, that's correct....
Greezer 01-01-06, 09:34 AM	can i make a full attack when i am on a mount, if the mount moves to oppent, can i make a full attack or not?
Vathelokai 01-01-06, 09:45 AM	can i make a full attack when i am on a mount, if the mount moves to oppent, can i make a full attack or not? From the Rules of the Game articles (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg) in the "all about mounts" article. Full Melee Attack: A moving mount usually keeps you from using the full attack action for melee attacks because you spend part of your turn just moving along with your mount. You can make a full melee attack while mounted, however, if your mount moves no more than 5 feet during the turn. The rules don't say so, but common sense dictates that 5 feet of movement in this case constitutes a 5-foot step. If your mount uses the minimum movement rule to move 5 feet though (see page 149 in the Player's Handbook), the best you can manage on the same round is a single melee attack. Full Ranged Attack: You can make a full ranged attack from your moving mount. If your mount makes a single move, you make all your ranged attacks either before or after the movement, and the rules assume your mount is stationary when you shoot. If your mount makes a double move, you can still make a full ranged attack, but you're shooting while the mount is moving and you take a -4 penalty on your attack roll. If your mount runs, you take a -8 penalty on ranged attacks. In either case, you make all your attack rolls when your mount has completed half its movement for the turn. part 3 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050208a) covers standard actions while mounted, and part 4 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050215a) covers full round actions.
Macbrea 01-01-06, 09:47 AM	You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon. But if you move move then 5ft you can only make a single attack action with a melee weapon.
Macbrea 01-01-06, 09:51 AM	Hey, Altaris13 if you have time next week. Marcus is interested in seeking out membership and killing someone for the requirements of Assassin. I would like to do that as a full Quest if possible.
MitzaVolchenko 01-01-06, 10:38 AM	Happy New Year! I would like to officially suggest that the signature list of indicators of addiction to CoCo have added: If you are grumbling because someone took down your mapping tool to work on it even though it is one of the biggest party holidays of the year, and you are ticked... *grins* I was all set to get Sola and Mektos out of the way when blammo, no maps for me!
Vathelokai 01-01-06, 11:07 AM	WereCOYOTE, that's just that much cooler.... ;) Look hereThe halfling rogue were-eagle, and the orc barbarian were-badger are also powerfull ECL 4 types. A tiny viper gives climb and swim; not great for arena, but good for questing. Maybe some kind of grappler were-weasel? Was it Magister that's been working on a were-octopus for a while?
Vathelokai 01-01-06, 12:32 PM	The rules of gladius say that everything in the base books is permitted. What about the stuff on DMG pg 145-146; i.e. asian, reneisance, and future weapons?
Dr. Funk 01-01-06, 12:38 PM	im am looking for a questlord for Kimahri (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7841593) to go on a quest for a Tan bag of tricks also i am looking for some one to come along if they want.
Pittbull 01-01-06, 12:40 PM	The rules of gladius say that everything in the base books is permitted. What about the stuff on DMG pg 145-146; i.e. asian, reneisance, and future weapons? Sorry, they are not allowed.
MindWandererB 01-01-06, 04:24 PM	Sorry, they are not allowed.Not so. From the Rules thread: "If you want to buy weapons or armor you should visit one of the many smiths near Market Square. Exotic smiths from the Far East sell weapons that were unknown until lately (see DMG,p145: Asian Weapons)." However, the rennaisance and future weapons are not allowed.
Ariel23 01-01-06, 04:43 PM	Now for a new silly question... if I made a weredog, and took a npc class, could I get a lycanthrope in the ECL3 league? It would only be ECL 2 1/3 I think...From what I read in the DMG, NPC classes do not affect your ECL, they affect your CR--so that would apply (possibly) to an ally, but not to a PC. Ok, this PoP thing has a perfect fix already spoken for. The "lets you cast one spell again without it going against the 1/3 rule". It fits the description, it fits the 1/3 rule, it even makes it work more like it would in tabletop gaming. Getting it to let you cast a different spell is not the point of the item, casting one spell twice is. My vote is for that :)I'm for that, too. I'm also for charging double for Pearls of Power, according to the RAW magic item creation guidelines. Presumably a Ring of Wizardry will only give you 1/3 value at an entry level of $20,000. As if sorcerers and bards don't have it bad enough already. People are saying "But if we do X, Pearls of Power will become worthless." Which just isn't true. It would be true, however, to say that Rings of Wizardry are already worthless in CoCo. Nobody is up in arms about that.
Huan 01-01-06, 07:32 PM	From what I read in the DMG, NPC classes do not affect your ECL, they affect your CR--so that would apply (possibly) to an ally, but not to a PC. Not so. NPCs Classes inherently increase ECL. They are regular classes, after all. If nothing else, NPC classes are available to be taken in COCO, and again, they are 1 for 1 with your ECL (See the Rules of Gladius). I'm for that, too. I'm also for charging double for Pearls of Power, according to the RAW magic item creation guidelines. Presumably a Ring of Wizardry will only give you 1/3 value at an entry level of $20,000. As if sorcerers and bards don't have it bad enough already. People are saying "But if we do X, Pearls of Power will become worthless." Which just isn't true. It would be true, however, to say that Rings of Wizardry are already worthless in CoCo. Nobody is up in arms about that. PoPs are starting to be abused here in the COCO to beat the 1/3rd rule. If they were actually used the way they were meant to (that is, recall ONLY an already cast spell in order to re-cast that same spell) then there would be no arguement from me. However, they are being used to indirectly recall spell slots, which is NOT its intended (or likely legal) use. If they continued to be used in this manner, I too agree their price should be increased (possibly doubled). You cannot claim they are the same as wands or scrolls, because those are gone forever once used in a fight (and only can be used for 1 specific spell), while PoPs regenerate for free after a fight (and can be used for any variety of spells).
Snommelp 01-01-06, 07:38 PM	Idea: Since pearls of power seem to be such a problem, why not give the PoP its own version of the 1/3 rule? You can only use 1/3 of the pearls in your possession, but they still recall spell levels. This might be the most fair solution to both sides.
Ariel23 01-01-06, 08:07 PM	Not so. NPCs Classes inherently increase ECL. They are regular classes, after all. If nothing else, NPC classes are available to be taken in COCO, and again, they are 1 for 1 with your ECL (See the Rules of Gladius). Actually, that's exactly what I meant: taking a single level of an NPC class raises your ECL, but doesn't raise your CR. Thus, it might be an option for an ally, although I doubt even that would work. When I said NPC classes don't affect your ECL, I meant they don't have a special effect on ECL (just the regular effect) and they do have a special effect on CR. Very poor wording on my part...terribly confusing. Incidentally, here is an ECL 3 Adept (in part): Tsiuzues Pettles (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8076204)
Usurpator 01-02-06, 04:46 AM	Idea: Since pearls of power seem to be such a problem, why not give the PoP its own version of the 1/3 rule? You can only use 1/3 of the pearls in your possession, but they still recall spell levels. This might be the most fair solution to both sides. I don't think pearls of power are such a problem. It is however an issue many feel strongly about (like when the Mystic Theurge was introduced, which nobody claims is overpowered now). There simply has not been enough factual research to make a case for brokeness. Core problem is that spellcasters are not viable in CoCo with the 1/3rd rule unless they supplement their spellcasting ability somehow. The most popular option to do this are scrolls, another option is pearls of power. Snommelp, while I think your rule has a certain 'fairness', I think it will only achieve that spellcasters will not buy/create pearls of power any more. Paying 3000 gp. and spending one action to regain 1 spell level is simple not cost-effective. Better to buy a scroll with the spell you want to cast: a lot less money spent and no action lost.
Ravashack 01-02-06, 05:15 AM	If the intent of the Pearl of Power is to allow another casting of the spell that was retrieved, why not just apply a house rule of: Spell levels recovered by Pearls of Power must be used on the spell(s) retrieved. Simple and effective.
DTFarstar 01-02-06, 05:32 AM	I want to state that I don't feel strongly one way or the other. I just want that out there. However, now that I said that.... If that house rule is put into effect, I'll totally never buy another PoP unless I build a sleep/hold person caster or something like that. The slight versatility is the only reason I paid 1000gp for the Pearl I bought for my character(Darius). I'd just buy scrolls of the spells I might need instead of preparing different ones and using contingencies with the PoP. For me the PoP isn't about more spells per day, though I must say that helps, it's about casting the wrong spell for a situation and said situation still potentially being retrievable. I dunno, just my 2cp.(over-used phrase I know.)
TheMagister 01-02-06, 05:40 AM	Introducing "The White Hand", 3 rog/2 pal. Check him out, make sure I didn't screw up too bad. Some of his stuff is pending approval from Cat, just so you know. TM
Ravashack 01-02-06, 07:22 AM	I want to state that I don't feel strongly one way or the other. I just want that out there. However, now that I said that.... If that house rule is put into effect, I'll totally never buy another PoP unless I build a sleep/hold person caster or something like that. The slight versatility is the only reason I paid 1000gp for the Pearl I bought for my character(Darius). I'd just buy scrolls of the spells I might need instead of preparing different ones and using contingencies with the PoP. For me the PoP isn't about more spells per day, though I must say that helps, it's about casting the wrong spell for a situation and said situation still potentially being retrievable. I dunno, just my 2cp.(over-used phrase I know.) And that bolded part is the benefit that spontaneous casters are supposed to have over classes like wizards and clerics. Because of the 1/3 rule, users of a Pearl of Power can also gain the benefits of spontaneous casters, without the nuisances of a limited spells known and slower spell access. Kind of makes playing a Sorcerer in the CoCo a lot less desireable, doesn't it?
Usurpator 01-02-06, 07:54 AM	Kind of makes playing a Sorcerer in the CoCo a lot less desireable, doesn't it? That has nothing to do with pearls of power because this is already true without the pearls. Spell access for wizards isn't limited to 1/3 in CoCo (unlike their casting ability). That means that the current 1/3 rule makes wizards a kind of pseudo-sorcerers, since they can use their 1st level 'spell levels' to cast 3rd lvl spells. I think the pearl of power discussion suffers from lots of extraneous arguments. And while some these arguments make sense, they are not exclusively applicable to pearls of power, and thus they confuse the issue. Casting flexibility and 1/3rd rule - Wizards in CoCo lose power but gain flexibility since they are allowed to choose from among all their memorized spells to cast their allowance. - Sorcerers in CoCo lose power but don't gain flexibility. Limited use and 1/3rd rule - All magical items, powers and abilities that can be used 1/day (or are expendable) are relatively powerful in CoCo because, while being subjected to of the 1/3rd rule, they actually don't lose any utility. Both issues raised above help make pearls of power useful, but they are *not* properties of the pearls themselves. If metamagic rods could only be used 1/day, and where priced at one-third their current cost, we would have the same discussion about the rods, since they would deliver the same effect in CoCo for 1/3rd the price.
Vathelokai 01-02-06, 08:58 AM	And that bolded part is the benefit that spontaneous casters are supposed to have over classes like wizards and clerics. .... Kind of makes playing a Sorcerer in the CoCo a lot less desireable, doesn't it? Not singling you out, but I keep hearing this point over and over.... ??? Here's how I see it; In CoCo a wizard is just a sorcerer who gets to change their spells known between every fight. And on top of that, they have an un-labeled meta-magic that lets them use 3 first level "spell slots" to cast a 3rd level spell. This has nothing to do with the pearls! This is what the 1/3rd rule does! The pearls just give you an extra spell level to work with. And part 2; "The benefit spontaneous casters are suppposed to have" - key word "supposed". Please don't make this a RAI arguement. Those always go nowhere.
Vathelokai 01-02-06, 09:14 AM	Introducing "The White Hand", 3 rog/2 pal. Check him out, make sure I didn't screw up too bad. Some of his stuff is pending approval from Cat, just so you know. TM The White Hand Hmmm... If you could label synergies in blue in the skills, and not part of the final total, that would be cool. Specificly I'm looking at UMD; the +2 decipher script syn only works on scrolls. I know he only has scrolls, but it's easy to forget that. In the feats you forgot a [/i] and it's closing up the sblocks for us firefox users. You have some skills with 8 rogue ranks. The only way to do that is if you took a rogue level after your paladin levels. If so, then you should mark it on the sheet, since...Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass character, but multiclass paladins face a special restriction. A paladin who gains a level in any class other than paladin may never again raise her paladin level, though she retains all her paladin abilities.
Ribking 01-02-06, 12:36 PM	Greefe would like to know if Quickdraw + Handy Haversack = Draw stored weapon as a free action?
SoulLord 01-02-06, 01:07 PM	The thing with pearls of Power is that the spell is like if it was never casted in the first place. The increased flexibility is just an illusion created by for the 1/3 rule.
SoulLord 01-02-06, 01:13 PM	Greefe would like to know if Quickdraw + Handy Haversack = Draw stored weapon as a free action? Handy eversack draw something as a move action quickdraw draw a weapon as a free action. It seems ok by me
Ravashack 01-02-06, 03:03 PM	That has nothing to do with pearls of power because this is already true without the pearls. Spell access for wizards isn't limited to 1/3 in CoCo (unlike their casting ability). That means that the current 1/3 rule makes wizards a kind of pseudo-sorcerers, since they can use their 1st level 'spell levels' to cast 3rd lvl spells. Not singling you out, but I keep hearing this point over and over.... ??? Here's how I see it; In CoCo a wizard is just a sorcerer who gets to change their spells known between every fight. And on top of that, they have an un-labeled meta-magic that lets them use 3 first level "spell slots" to cast a 3rd level spell. This has nothing to do with the pearls! This is what the 1/3rd rule does! The pearls just give you an extra spell level to work with. And part 2; "The benefit spontaneous casters are suppposed to have" - key word "supposed". Please don't make this a RAI arguement. Those always go nowhere. That's the point. Pearls of Power as used now in the CoCo in conjunction with the 1/3 rule blur the line between spontaneous and non-spontaneous casters even more, to the point that it pretty much ups the Wizard or Cleric's spells available to the Sorcerer's AND grants an unintended flexibility that it wouldn't normally have. As far as I can tell, this is the point that people are trying to make--it's not that there's anything wrong with the pearls themselves, it's that the environment makes them way better than they should be. I don't want to make it an RAI argument; I'm just saying I see the point about the spontaneous caster's advantages even though I don't necessarily subscribe to it.
Ariel23 01-02-06, 03:04 PM	Greefe would like to know if Quickdraw + Handy Haversack = Draw stored weapon as a free action? Yes, but: In fact, each is like a bag of holding and can actually hold material of as much as 2 cubic feet in volume or 20 pounds in weight. The large central portion of the pack can contain up to 8 cubic feet or 80 pounds of material. Even when so filled, the backpack always weighs only 5 pounds.So it would really depend on what you are planning to put in there. 8 cubic feet is 2' x 2' x 2', which isn't going to accomodate many weapons. Plus there's the "like a bag of holding" part: If the bag is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag ruptures and is ruined.
Ribking 01-02-06, 04:00 PM	8 cubic feet is 2' x 2' x 2', which isn't going to accomodate many weapons.I thought that might come up. 8 cubic feet can also be 1' x 1' x 8', which would be more acceptable for many weapons. Is there some written rule about the 2' x 2' x 2' size? Good call on the sharp object issue....I didn't expect that. Fortunately, Greefe has been thinking about abandoning the Throwing Axes and using Light Hammers as his weapon of choice....for range reasons mostly, but this issue makes them even more appealing. While I am here, can anyone tell me how much handcrafted items sell for? Is it still half market cost and therefore breaking even?
Skojar 01-02-06, 04:44 PM	Question: my fighter was blinded during his fight this week. Do I need to pay for a remove blindness or no?
Ariel23 01-02-06, 04:48 PM	Is there some written rule about the 2' x 2' x 2'No written rule at all, I just gave that as an example. In a p&p game, that would be a DM call. Could you put in a 1/2" thick 20' long pole? The hammers seems like a good idea and something well within reason, I would think. (Not a dozen spears, for example).
SoulLord 01-02-06, 04:48 PM	Question: my fighter was blinded during his fight this week. Do I need to pay for a remove blindness or no? No usually all bad effects are canceled after the fight familiars dying, blindness, curses, sundered equipment, etc. the only permanent bad thing that could affect you is to have a permanent effect dispelled
Vathelokai 01-02-06, 04:51 PM	Is there some written rule about the 2' x 2' x 2'No written rule at all, I just gave that as an example. In a p&p game, that would be a DM call. Could you put in a 1/2" thick 20' long pole? The hammers seems like a good idea and something well within reason, I would think. (Not a dozen spears, for example). Now the efficient quiver... you can load that with as many pointy objects as you want.Efficient Quiver: This appears to be a typical arrow container capable of holding about twenty arrows. It has three distinct portions, each with a nondimensional space allowing it to store far more than would normally be possible. The first and smallest one can contain up to sixty objects of the same general size and shape as an arrow. The second slightly longer compartment holds up to eighteen objects of the same general size and shape as a javelin. The third and longest portion of the case contains as many as six objects of the same general size and shape as a bow (spears, staffs, or the like). Once the owner has filled it, the quiver can produce any item she wishes, as if from a regular quiver or scabbard. The efficient quiver weighs the same no matter what’s placed inside it. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Wondrous Item, secret chest; Price 1,800 gp;Weight 2 lb. While I am here, can anyone tell me how much handcrafted items sell for? Is it still half market cost and therefore breaking even?You are correct; half price.
Ribking 01-02-06, 04:57 PM	Thank you Ariel23, Soullord and Vathelokai.
TheMagister 01-02-06, 07:59 PM	The White Hand Hmmm... If you could label synergies in blue in the skills, and not part of the final total, that would be cool. Specificly I'm looking at UMD; the +2 decipher script syn only works on scrolls. I know he only has scrolls, but it's easy to forget that. In the feats you forgot a [/i] and it's closing up the sblocks for us firefox users. You have some skills with 8 rogue ranks. The only way to do that is if you took a rogue level after your paladin levels. If so, then you should mark it on the sheet, since... Thanks for the once over, Vath. Took all your suggestions and applied them. Sheet looks better already. He's a neat build, though I'm not sure how he'll fare in the arena. TM
Ariel23 01-02-06, 11:10 PM	Does anyone know anything about Thralls? Do you have to quest for them like Leadership? I assume if you make your character a Thrallherd from scratch you wouldn't. How do you determine what stats they have? Equipment...? Does the Thrallherd (PC) make all those decisions?
MitzaVolchenko 01-03-06, 02:52 AM	I am moving this over from the concerns thread as it seems that it is more of a general discussion topic than anything that needs to clutter that thread up. 50 gp is correct. If it goes up to ML 3, then it becomes effectively a Level 2 Power and the price jumps dramatically. ML 3 x PL 2 x 25 = 150 gp. A ML 2 stone is ML 2 x PL 1 x 25 = 50 gp So the additional augmentation is free? The ML 2 of vigor simply extends the duration. It states that augmentation gives +5 HP for each PP spent after activation cost is met. It would seem that it should follow then that a ML-2 stone of vigor is the 50gp for ML2*PL1*25gp=50. I am with you so far, but what I am asking is whether you pay for augmentation or do you just get it for free due to some arcane math formula that makes no sense? Can someone explain this one in simple terms with the logic behind it rather than just saying that the 50gp for augmented ML2 vigor powerstone is correct? I looked up the silly stones everywhere I could think of and the cost seems that it should be higher. I couldn't find anything under either creating psionic items, creating power stones, or imprint stone that covered the extra PP that would have been spent to augment. The only semi-relevant item in the 3.5 FAQ is whether augmenting raises the PL which it doesn't, but there doesn't seem to be a any notation on whehter augment raises the effective ML. Augment: Many powers vary in strength depending on how many power points you put into them. The more power points you spend, the more powerful the manifestation. However, you can spend only a total number of points on a power equal to your manifester level, unless you have an ability that increases your effective manifester level. That would read to me that since the item is listed as ML-2 only 2 pp could have been spent into it meaning that it either has to have a 1 min duration and gives 10HP or have the 2 min duration that an ML 2 Stone of Vigor would normally have. This has no bearing on the fight that brought it to my attention, but I really would like to get this one straight in my head as I am vaguely considering a psion for my next character and would like to understand it better. Thanks for putting up with the dizzy blonde :)
Cerebus13 01-03-06, 07:44 AM	I am moving this over from the concerns thread as it seems that it is more of a general discussion topic than anything that needs to clutter that thread up. So the additional augmentation is free? The ML 2 of vigor simply extends the duration. It states that augmentation gives +5 HP for each PP spent after activation cost is met. It would seem that it should follow then that a ML-2 stone of vigor is the 50gp for ML2*PL1*25gp=50. I am with you so far, but what I am asking is whether you pay for augmentation or do you just get it for free due to some arcane math formula that makes no sense? Can someone explain this one in simple terms with the logic behind it rather than just saying that the 50gp for augmented ML2 vigor powerstone is correct? I looked up the silly stones everywhere I could think of and the cost seems that it should be higher. I couldn't find anything under either creating psionic items, creating power stones, or imprint stone that covered the extra PP that would have been spent to augment. The only semi-relevant item in the 3.5 FAQ is whether augmenting raises the PL which it doesn't, but there doesn't seem to be a any notation on whehter augment raises the effective ML. That would read to me that since the item is listed as ML-2 only 2 pp could have been spent into it meaning that it either has to have a 1 min duration and gives 10HP or have the 2 min duration that an ML 2 Stone of Vigor would normally have. This has no bearing on the fight that brought it to my attention, but I really would like to get this one straight in my head as I am vaguely considering a psion for my next character and would like to understand it better. Thanks for putting up with the dizzy blonde :)Yes the additional augmentation is part of the overall price for the powerstone. Increasing the manifester level of a powerstone allows the creator to spend more PPs when making it, because PP usage is capped based on the manifester level of whoever is doing something that costs PPs. The formula is as you said, Manifester Level * Power Level * 25. However we have introduced a house rule in the CoCo that states that for every 2 extra ML that you augment a power, the Power Level in the above formula increases by 1. So for example: ML 1 Vigor is 1 * 1 * 25 = 25gp ML 2 Vigor augmented is 2 * 1 * 25 = 50gp ML 3 Vigor augmented is 3 * 2 * 25 = 150gp If you increase the ML of a power but do not augment it then you are not subject to this houserule. This can be useful if a person simply wants to increase the duration or range of the power, which are only dependant on ML.
Cerebus13 01-03-06, 08:55 AM	Dr. Hobo would like to go on an EL 5 miniquest in order to fill the requirement to join The Living Tree guild. I probably won't be able to contribute for a while, but wanted to throw my hat in the mix anyway. Are there any questlords available to do this?
Vathelokai 01-03-06, 10:32 AM	I was looking around at the SRD, trying to think of a new character build idea, and I noticed something; Horizon walker has a terrain mastery, available at 1st lv., that makes you immune to fatigue. A barbarian that multiclasses could get the 8 ranks in know:geography, and become a fatigueless barbarian way before lv.17 (tireless rage). Don't think I'm going to use it, but thought it was interesting.
waywreth 01-03-06, 10:42 AM	Histal Dar'ath would like to Miniquest to join TAO. Vathelokai has agreed to run said quest, and I've noted it in the header for Histal.
SoulLord 01-03-06, 10:46 AM	I was looking around at the SRD, trying to think of a new character build idea, and I noticed something; Horizon walker has a terrain mastery, available at 1st lv., that makes you immune to fatigue. A barbarian that multiclasses could get the 8 ranks in know:geography, and become a fatigueless barbarian way before lv.17 (tireless rage). Don't think I'm going to use it, but thought it was interesting. Interesting at lvl 5 you could get the prerequisites and start as horizon walker at lvl 6 to get your tireless barbarian
Macbrea 01-03-06, 10:47 AM	I was looking around at the SRD, trying to think of a new character build idea, and I noticed something; Horizon walker has a terrain mastery, available at 1st lv., that makes you immune to fatigue. A barbarian that multiclasses could get the 8 ranks in know:geography, and become a fatigueless barbarian way before lv.17 (tireless rage). Don't think I'm going to use it, but thought it was interesting. Gorak is on the path to horizon walker. After this weeks fights I will level to 4. I have a bit of a choice to make. He is Rogue 1/ Fighter 1/ Ranger 1. His 5th level must be ranger in order to have the knowledge nessessary to take horizon walker at 6th. Which means I am able to choose just about any class but ranger at level 4. My current chooses seem to be: Rogue 2 for evasion and skills Fighter 2 for Feat (exotic weapon: Dwarven waraxe) Barbarian 1 for Rage and fast movement (knowinig he will be immune to fatigue at 6th) Psion 1 for (Psionic Powers, Psionic bonus feat (he has a int 14)) He will be taking at least 7 levels of horizon walker for the Dimension door every 1d4 rounds and the Tremor sense. At that point he can go toward anything he qualifies for prestige class wise.
Cerebus13 01-03-06, 11:02 AM	I've tallied the results of the first round of questions in the Community Vote thread and sent them into Pitlords. I've added a couple of new questions concerning Tower Shields and sold item XP costs. Go check it out in this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=552366) thread and voice your opinion!
SoulLord 01-03-06, 11:08 AM	Gorak is on the path to horizon walker. After this weeks fights I will level to 4. I have a bit of a choice to make. He is Rogue 1/ Fighter 1/ Ranger 1. His 5th level must be ranger in order to have the knowledge nessessary to take horizon walker at 6th. Which means I am able to choose just about any class but ranger at level 4. My current chooses seem to be: Rogue 2 for evasion and skills Fighter 2 for Feat (exotic weapon: Dwarven waraxe) Barbarian 1 for Rage and fast movement (knowinig he will be immune to fatigue at 6th) Psion 1 for (Psionic Powers, Psionic bonus feat (he has a int 14)) He will be taking at least 7 levels of horizon walker for the Dimension door every 1d4 rounds and the Tremor sense. At that point he can go toward anything he qualifies for prestige class wise. Seems like barbarian is your best bet to take full advantage of the horizon walker prestige class.
Vathelokai 01-03-06, 11:32 AM	I've tallied the results of the first round of questions in the Community Vote thread and sent them into Pitlords. I've added a couple of new questions concerning Tower Shields and sold item XP costs. Go check it out in this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=552366) thread and voice your opinion! #6 If a spell required in the making of an item costs XP (such as Permanency or somesuch) do you have to pay extra for it? How much extra? a) Yes. Follow the standard rate of XP cost in the CoCo, 5gp per 1 XP. b) No. c) Other (list your idea) I think I don't understand the question. If you are crafting the item and casting the spells to make the item, then you pay xp instead of extra gold. If someone else is casting the spell, then you pay them 5 gp per 1 xp. Is that the question? Can someone show me an example of what the question is about?
Ariel23 01-03-06, 12:53 PM	Rogue 2 for evasion and skills Fighter 2 for Feat (exotic weapon: Dwarven waraxe) Barbarian 1 for Rage and fast movement (knowinig he will be immune to fatigue at 6th) Psion 1 for (Psionic Powers, Psionic bonus feat (he has a int 14)) At that point he can go toward anything he qualifies for prestige class wise. I could see Fighter for something else, but not Dwarven waraxe. Going from 1d8 to 1d10 is an average damage bonus of +1. Wielding a 2H weapon, Barbarian is worth +2 to hit and +3 damage for a finite number of rounds. This does not sound like a character that plans on having long fights in order to win. It's hard to imagine having a tireless character and passing on Barbarian. 40' Move plus Dimension Door will make you impossible to avoid. If you are truly planning out 20 levels and have to take more PrC's after Horizon Walker, then you might need Rogue for the skills. I like Evasion a lot, but in the arena, it seems to all be about the WIL saves (Barbarian gives a total of +4 Fort and +2 Wil while raging!). Don't bother with Psion unless your sole goal is to add a lot of fairly cheap buffs to your list of actions at the beginning of every fight. Psion 1 with 14 INT = 3 PP = 1 PP arena. If you're going to do that, you might as well pick Psychic Warrior, they get a better selection of bonus feats (including Dwarven Waraxe) and can use a lot of items. d8 HD and if you take a 2nd level, you get another bonus feat.
Macbrea 01-03-06, 01:38 PM	Well, Dwarven waraxe may only seem like +1 damage. But in fact it has the actual side effect I am looking for. By moving to a one handed weapon. (axe because that is what he is known for) it frees up the other hand to possess a shield. Assuming normal enchanting of armor he will end up with a decent AC. I have decided against psychic warrior because of his massive Wis 6. I stared at his feat list for awhile and decided against fighter or psion. This leaves Rogue and Barbarian. In truth, Barbarian is by far better Rogue after studing it. Feats Point Blank Shot (1st Level) Track (2nd Level - Ranger 1) Bonus Feat: Quickdraw (3rd Level - Fighter 1) Endurancec (3rd Level) Rapid shot (5th level - Ranger 2) Exotic Weapon Prof: (Dwarven waraxe) (6th level) Cloak Dance (9th level) Quickened Spell like ability (dimension door) (12th level) Feats are free to do whatever from here: Ranger 2/ Rogue 1/ Fighter 1/ Barbarian 1/ Horizon walker 10= 15 ECL Ghost +5 ECL
Ariel23 01-03-06, 02:14 PM	This is copied from the weekly Fights thread.Incorrect. Dissolving Weapon is a valid prebuff on melee weapons and on bow/crossbow. In the case of the bow/crossbow the first shot you make will discharge Dissolving Weapon. If Dissolving Weapon is a valid pre-buff, why don't we manifest it on all of our arrows before entering the arena, up to 2/3 of our PP? Or on 6 different melee weapons? Etc... Does this mean all touch spells are valid pre-buffs as well? If so, then there's no reason for Psicrystals and Familiars not to start with touch spells as pre-buffs... As a secondary question, is it a valid pre-buff to use items which are above your caster/manifester level? Ie., those which require Use Magic Device, Spellcraft, or Psicraft? What about if you can't take 10 or Take 20 or can't succeed by Taking 10 or if there are mishap possibilities, etc...?
NiQil 01-03-06, 02:19 PM	This is copied from the weekly Fights thread. If Dissolving Weapon is a valid pre-buff, why don't we manifest it on all of our arrows before entering the arena, up to 2/3 of our PP? Or on 6 different melee weapons? Etc... Does this mean all touch spells are valid pre-buffs as well? If so, then there's no reason for Psicrystals and Familiars not to start with touch spells as pre-buffs... As a secondary question, is it a valid pre-buff to use items which are above your caster/manifester level? Ie., those which require Use Magic Device, Spellcraft, or Psicraft? What about if you can't take 10 or Take 20 or can't succeed by Taking 10 or if there are mishap possibilities, etc...? Dissolving Touch and Dissolving Weapon are valid prebuffs because they last until you hit with them, which allows them to last longer than the 16 hours needed for prebuffs. As to your secondary question, if there is a consequence to an action, it cannot be prebuffed. So your examples of using scrolls at a higher CL will not work due to the chance of a mishap.
Macbrea 01-03-06, 02:24 PM	While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy. Does death attack even work in the arena? Assuming the Assassin was invisibile.
NiQil 01-03-06, 02:34 PM	Does death attack even work in the arena? Assuming the Assassin was invisibile. Assuming the assassin can make it through those three rounds of study, hell yes it works....it's just those three rounds of study that are the drawback. If you can get around those (invisibility or a really good hide check will do it), then you are free to trail along after your opponent for three rounds doing your studying, and then from there hit them with a death attack.
TelinArtho 01-03-06, 03:01 PM	This is copied from the weekly Fights thread. If Dissolving Weapon is a valid pre-buff, why don't we manifest it on all of our arrows before entering the arena, up to 2/3 of our PP? Or on 6 different melee weapons? Etc... Does this mean all touch spells are valid pre-buffs as well? If so, then there's no reason for Psicrystals and Familiars not to start with touch spells as pre-buffs... As a secondary question, is it a valid pre-buff to use items which are above your caster/manifester level? Ie., those which require Use Magic Device, Spellcraft, or Psicraft? What about if you can't take 10 or Take 20 or can't succeed by Taking 10 or if there are mishap possibilities, etc...? Limitations: You may not hold the charge of a touch spell, nor can you keep up concentration long enough to use it as a prebuff. You may not pre-buff with a spell that affects the arena (wall of stone, dimensional lock, decanter of endless water, etc). So no - touch spells cannot be held as a prebuff.
Myrridin 01-03-06, 03:23 PM	Does death attack even work in the arena? Assuming the Assassin was invisibile. I believe that the original Kelek of the Purge managed to pull it off a couple times in the Arena.
Zevox 01-03-06, 03:41 PM	This is copied from the weekly Fights thread. If Dissolving Weapon is a valid pre-buff, why don't we manifest it on all of our arrows before entering the arena, up to 2/3 of our PP? Or on 6 different melee weapons? Etc... Aside form what the others have mentioned, note also that you could only use powers as a prebuff for up to 1/3 of your PP, since (as per the "Rules of Gladius" thread) prebuffs come out of a 1/3 limit as well. Prebuffs use their own 1/3 limit of your daily allotment. Zevox
Mal-2 01-03-06, 05:56 PM	This is cross-posted from the Community Vote thread, since I require further clarifications on one of the questions. #6 If a spell or power required in the making of an item costs XP (such as Permanency or somesuch) do you have to pay extra for it? How much extra? (This question is mostly in reference to items that are not already priced within the DMG, such as power stones) a) Yes. Follow the standard rate of XP cost in the CoCo, 5gp per 1 XP. b) No. c) Other (list your idea) Perhaps I should have been more clear on #6... The question comes up with items that are not listed within the DMG, such as Powerstones and whatnot. What happens when you go to buy a powerstone for a power that has an associated XP cost? I'll fix the question to reflect this. I'm still a bit confused. In the original question, you talk about items that require Permanency to create. If Permanency is one of the prerequisites in a Wonderous Item, that item should not cost extra to make, it costs exactly what the SRD says. If, instead, you are talking about power stones or scrolls that are storing powers with an XP cost, those do cost extra to make. Can you please give me a couple of specific exaples of what items you're talking about here?
Ariel23 01-03-06, 06:33 PM	Please note that no ECL 3 character can prebuff with Dissolving Touch because the minimum caster level for that power is 3* and it is a level 2 power. The same will go for most multi-class ECL 4+'s. It requires a manifester level check (d20 + ML) versus DC (1 + ML) of the stone. [*Open to debate] This also applies to Scrolls, but I don't know of any similar powers or spells that are pre-buffed in this way. Also, where does it say that if you cast Dissolving Weapon on a ranged weapon that it goes away even after a failed attack? The RAW specifically says, "until a successful attack" and makes no exeption for ranged attacks at all. If we want to bring RAI into it, it is highly likely that one of these powers is supposed to be fora touch power for natural melee attacks, and the other is supposed to be a touch power for melee weapons. Since this is simply a reworking of a touch spell Shocking Grasp --> Shocking Weapon] and the power states Target: One held weapon; see text[The "text" merely says it functions like a touch spell--Dissolving Touch to be specific.] This power functions like a touch spell in every respect save that you cannot make an ordinary touch attack against Touch AC, you must add it on to a standard melee attack. I find it unusual that everyone assumes this may be used on a missile weapon.
Usurpator 01-03-06, 06:41 PM	If we want to bring RAI into it, it is highly likely that one of these powers is supposed to be fora touch power for natural melee attacks, and the other is supposed to be a touch power for melee weapons. Since this is simply a reworking of a touch spell Shocking Grasp --> Shocking Weapon] and the power states [The "text" merely says it functions like a touch spell--Dissolving Touch to be specific.] This power functions like a touch spell in every respect save that you cannot make an ordinary touch attack against Touch AC, you must add it on to a standard melee attack. I find it unusual that everyone assumes this may be used on a missile weapon. I agree completely. I think Dissolving Weapon should be forbidden as a prebuff because it is the equivalent of a touch spell. Touching the weapon to anything (like a scabbard) should set off the power. I do assume it can be used on on a missile weapon, only I do also assume (and always ruled) that people with missile weapons use it on their ammunition, since the only way to damage someone with dissolving weapon on their bow is to hit them with the bow itself IMO. Unless I see it written differently in the house rules, I will continue to assume people cast Dissolving Weapon on ammunition.
Cerebus13 01-03-06, 06:52 PM	I'm still a bit confused. In the original question, you talk about items that require Permanency to create. If Permanency is one of the prerequisites in a Wonderous Item, that item should not cost extra to make, it costs exactly what the SRD says. If, instead, you are talking about power stones or scrolls that are storing powers with an XP cost, those do cost extra to make. Can you please give me a couple of specific exaples of what items you're talking about here?I was refering to the spell Permanency completely at random as a spell that requires XP to cast. I could have chosen Wish or something else but Permanency came to mind first. A specific example would be: Power Stone of Matter Manipulation [ML 15]
Cerebus13 01-03-06, 06:54 PM	I agree completely. I think Dissolving Weapon should be forbidden as a prebuff because it is the equivalent of a touch spell. Touching the weapon to anything (like a scabbard) should set off the power. I do assume it can be used on on a missile weapon, only I do also assume (and always ruled) that people with missile weapons use it on their ammunition, since the only way to damage someone with dissolving weapon on their bow is to hit them with the bow itself IMO. Unless I see it written differently in the house rules, I will continue to assume people cast Dissolving Weapon on ammunition.Speak to Pittbull about this first, because he was the one who interpreted the rule this way. Pitlords is often behind on updating the Rules of Gladius thread so we go with word of mouth instead.
MindWandererB 01-03-06, 06:55 PM	Question about the Prison: Innocent: This is for violations fixed within the alloted timline. GUILTY - PBJ: This is for violations that remained unresolved throughout the entire course of the week and are minor.Since most prison posts go up just after the weekly pairings, and updates cannot be made until after the fight is run, how is it possible to get an "innocent" unless the narc made a mistake? I hate having all these [V:#] flags on my characters that I can't get rid of, especially when the mistakes are minor, or when they aren't actually mistakes but streamining issues.
Usurpator 01-03-06, 07:00 PM	Question about the Prison: Since most prison posts go up just after the weekly pairings, and updates cannot be made until after the fight is run, how is it possible to get an "innocent" unless the narc made a mistake? I hate having all these [V:#] flags on my characters that I can't get rid of, especially when the mistakes are minor, or when they aren't actually mistakes but streamining issues. Check the prison regularly, and if a violation on one of your characters is posted, respond immediately rather than waiting for the Prison roll call.....
Maraxus 01-03-06, 07:19 PM	Ah, I have not realized it till now, through he allready has his 3rd fight: I gladly welcome you, Krayko the Bringer of Frozen Justice, welcome to Gladius, where Kobolds are not supressed and almost liked. You remind me of my zasslish self. :D
MindWandererB 01-03-06, 08:09 PM	Check the prison regularly, and if a violation on one of your characters is posted, respond immediately rather than waiting for the Prison roll call.....I do, plus two of the three people who have reported on me were nice enough to PM me letting me know. But if the prison roll call goes up before fights are posted, it's impossible to make corrections in time. At the best (unless one is "fighting" Maven that week), one has no more then 24 hours between the fight posting and the roll call going up.
TelinArtho 01-03-06, 08:27 PM	Well, for the most part - violations that are noted are noted before the pairings and as a result - you have the time to fix them. The rest of the violations are noted by your opponent(s) or pitlord - and are things that you either a) won't be able to use for the fight or b) need to get clarified before you can use them. As a for instance, I noted to my brother-in-law that he had paid too little for his adamantine weapon - so I told him in order to not have an issue with his fight this past week to not use it - and simply correct the price for this upcoming week. If it is something more integral - you have to "eat" more of the problem - but you can always request (usually in the tavern) to have someone give a once-over on your characters. Once upon a time (all of a few months ago) I had people PM me when they wanted a good look through (usually for audits).
Macbrea 01-03-06, 08:31 PM	Hey, I have a question about poisons that was never answered. Is poison applied to arrows one dose per 50 arrows like magic weapons or is it 1 dose per arrow? In which case it go against almost everything else that effects ammunition in the game.
TelinArtho 01-03-06, 08:34 PM	1 dose of poison is one poison save. So if you want to apply it to 50 arrows - please do - but you only get one saving throw from it and only after all 50 hit... In other words - it is a very small amount that packs a good punch when applied. But it can be applied equally to a single blade as to a single arrowhead.
NiQil 01-03-06, 09:15 PM	I do, plus two of the three people who have reported on me were nice enough to PM me letting me know. But if the prison roll call goes up before fights are posted, it's impossible to make corrections in time. At the best (unless one is "fighting" Maven that week), one has no more then 24 hours between the fight posting and the roll call going up. As acting Prisonlord, let me clarify for you. Pairing happen on Wednesday. From then until pairings the following week, you have time to fix errors reported in prison. Sometimes you have to wait for your fight to post to do this, which sometimes doesn't leave much time between pairings to get things fixed. The prison runs on a normal Sun-Sat week. Roll call is usually done on Monday's, but could be as late as Wednesday morning, if my RL gets busy. The thing you seem to be running into is that you shouldn't be waiting for the roll call to come out to fix your violations. That should be one of the threads you check early and often, in case your character gets posted about there. You should be fixing them as soon as you see the violation. If that happens to be after pairings and before a fight has been posted, unfortunately you sometimes get stuck. It is done this way, however, so that Pitlords can have an accurate accounting of people who should not be paired. If the prison week was the same as the pairing week, there would be a week overlap between the time someone was sent to prison and the time it prevented you from being paired. Keep in mind that the roll call is primarily meant as a record-keeping tool, not a notification of violations. It also works for notifications, but that should not be what you wait for. With regard to the violation trackers, those aren't really a huge issue. If you get a Violation tag, that just means that you didn't get the error fixed within the first week it was reported. That still gives you at least 1 full week after it becomes a Prison tag on the roll call to fix the problem before you would be placed in prison and not allowed to be paired that week. This is done intentionally, so that everyone gets at least 1 full week to make corrections. The Violation tags shouldn't be as big a concern for you as the Prison tags, because those are what prevent you from being paired. If you have any further questions, feel free to PM Prisonlords anytime.
Warclone 01-03-06, 09:33 PM	I have a rules question for everybody: If I have 10 wisdom, and I have Owl's Wisdom on me for an effective 14 wisdom, do I need to take 14 wisdom damage or 10 wisdom damage before I am rendered helpless?
MindWandererB 01-03-06, 09:41 PM	I have a rules question for everybody: If I have 10 wisdom, and I have Owl's Wisdom on me for an effective 14 wisdom, do I need to take 14 wisdom damage or 10 wisdom damage before I am rendered helpless?0+4=4. As long as your Wis is effectively above zero, you're conscious. No reason to believe otherwise. (Although, I wonder--if you're unconscious and dying, and someone casts Bull's Endurance on you, bringing you above 0 HP, are you conscious but still dying? You only stop dying if you recieve healing, which Bull's Endurance technically isn't.)
Ayrynthyn 01-04-06, 12:42 AM	What would you guys think of a separate post describing how to write proper tactics. Something comperable to the Streamline initiative. I think such an undertaking would require more spotlight time than would be availble in the Tavern here. I would volunteer to write something up, but apparently i am inadequatley equiped to write tactics that cover every conceivable action my opponents can take, and dont take up a 15 page word doc... Perhaps something to jump start the conversation... Tactics as intended vs. Tactics to the Letter :rolleyes:
Snommelp 01-04-06, 02:00 AM	When an Evil cleric uses his supernatural ability to command undead, are those undead under his control for only a short period of time, or until he/she dismisses them? The PHB does not say, but one would assume the effect is permanent.
Pitlords 01-04-06, 06:41 AM	Hello all! I'm back and no day too early. Is there anything I should know? Beginning to update the Roster now... Cat
Vathelokai 01-04-06, 07:02 AM	Hello all! I'm back and no day too early. Is there anything I should know? Cat Well there was 2 pages of debate over the usage of pearls of power. The masses would like a ruling. And there was this "sudden death" arena match around page 4 or so... Fight was re run though. New community vote thread questions... Nothing major.
Cerebus13 01-04-06, 07:41 AM	Hello all! I'm back and no day too early. Is there anything I should know? Beginning to update the Roster now... CatI emailed you the questions and results of 4 rules questions that everyone voted on. If you could examine them and determine if some sort of rules change or clarification is required that would be great. Let us know what you do in any event.
Ravashack 01-04-06, 10:05 AM	What would you guys think of a separate post describing how to write proper tactics. Something comperable to the Streamline initiative. I think such an undertaking would require more spotlight time than would be availble in the Tavern here. I would volunteer to write something up, but apparently i am inadequatley equiped to write tactics that cover every conceivable action my opponents can take, and dont take up a 15 page word doc... Perhaps something to jump start the conversation... Tactics as intended vs. Tactics to the Letter :rolleyes: This is something that is always going to be a problem, IMO, until pitlords all agree to interpret tactics in one set way. Writing tactics is already a royal pain when, for one set of written tactics, some pitlords will tell you that you're too specific and that the tactics would be better if it wasn't, while other pitlords will tell you that your tactics falls apart because you weren't clear enough on this or that contingency. :headexplo It's even more annoying when the person writing the tactics specifies that they want something done and the pitlord thinks "He says to do this, but doing that in this situation I think is stupid, so that's not going to happen." I do appreciate the work the people volunteering for pitlords do and won't ask for reruns because of it (unless it turns out to be a really, REALLY careless job), but enough of the pitlords have this particular fault that it's frustrating. I really don't appreciate having to spell out WHY I want something done in the tactics in order to insure the pitlord will actually do it-- doing so in some cases destroys the ability to ever use it again, and in other cases it opens a more painfully obvious window on the character's style if you have to explain why. I really hate having to constantly say in my tactics, "I don't care if this or that happens, stop factoring it in damn it." or the equivalent.
waywreth 01-04-06, 10:16 AM	Quick pricing question to make sure I'm doing this right: I want to buy an ML2 stone of Force Screen (it lasts longer). This should cost 50gp correct? If I wanted ML3 it'd be 75gp? I realize this is unaugmented, that would cost alot more (well for ML3 anyway). Powerstones of Dissolving weapon (ML2) - cost 150gp? Related Psionics question: How does the feat Psionic Hole interact with powerstones? That is to say - if a character has the feat and is attacked with a power from a stone, what is the result?
Macbrea 01-04-06, 10:22 AM	Tactics in CoCo are also a matter of getting to know how certian pitlords interpret rulings and how others don't. I try to stay as true to tactics as I can until I have no other choice. Most of the time if comes down to if they action would have resulted in being crushed each turn. I am prone to say the character is smart enough to realize that isn't going to work. Example: In the Rethun vs Karen Douglas fight a ran a few weeks back. Rethun was down to just a few darts left and Didn't have the movement to outrun Karen. If I followed his tactics exactly he tumble out of her reach and move toward cover. Then she would charge him and swat him. Rinse and repeat until he was dead. Obviously, the player isn't able to suddenly make the decision that it would be hopeless to run. So, I stood and fought.
Ravashack 01-04-06, 10:27 AM	Related Psionics question: How does the feat Psionic Hole interact with powerstones? That is to say - if a character has the feat and is attacked with a power from a stone, what is the result? I can't answer your pricing questions, but from the way Psionic Hole is read, it sounds like the person using the Powerstone would have to spend extra PP from their PP pool if they want the power to still work. Meaning someone relying on Use Psionic Device to activate powerstones to use targeted powers on someone will have a LOT of useless powerstones. Also meaning that someone with Psionic Hole will drain a CoCo psionic character's available PP pool extremely fast if their Wisdom is high.
SoulLord 01-04-06, 10:36 AM	I emailed you the questions and results of 4 rules questions that everyone voted on. If you could examine them and determine if some sort of rules change or clarification is required that would be great. Let us know what you do in any event. I was browsing through some old dragon magazines of mine and I saw a reference to using a tower Shield while Mounted saying it was perfectly legal but that the mount would not benefit from cover. Reinforcing my belief that you don't lose your cover by moving in fact all you have to do to get the cover is not attack; I could clearly see Someone moving towards an archer covered in his tower shield closing up the distance.
Cerebus13 01-04-06, 10:37 AM	I can't answer your pricing questions, but from the way Psionic Hole is read, it sounds like the person using the Powerstone would have to spend extra PP from their PP pool if they want the power to still work. Meaning someone relying on Use Psionic Device to activate powerstones to use targeted powers on someone will have a LOT of useless powerstones. Also meaning that someone with Psionic Hole will drain a CoCo psionic character's available PP pool extremely fast if their Wisdom is high.Psionic Hole and interaction with Psionic Items came up a long time ago. Jindl, an Elder at the time, came up with the solution that Psionic Hole will simply drain PPs from the stone being used. For example: Jim uses an augmented stone of Energy Ray [ML 3] on Bob. Bob has Psionic Hole and a Wisdom of 12, which means Jim must pay an additional 1 PP to manifest on Bob. Because Jim's powerstone is effectively using 3 PPs (since it is a ML 3 augmented stone) he has sufficient extra PPs to pay for Psionic Hole. Subtracting 1 from the total PPs available means that Jim is able to manifest a 2 PP Energy Ray on Bob for 2d6 damage. ------- This solution can be a bit confusing but it is the more forgiving way to deal with Psionic Items. Otherwise if you required PPs from a personal pool then Use Psionic Device users would never be able to use items on an opponent with Psionic Hole.
Cerebus13 01-04-06, 10:39 AM	I was browsing through some old dragon magazines of mine and I saw a reference to using a tower Shield while Mounted saying it was perfectly legal but that the mount would not benefit from cover. Reinforcing my belief that you don't lose your cover by moving in fact all you have to do to get the cover is not attack; I could clearly see Someone moving towards an archer covered in his tower shield closing up the distance.Text similar to this is in the D&D FAQ:Can one use a tower shield while mounted? Nothing in the tower shield description implies that you can’t use it while mounted. If you claim cover from the shield, your mount gets no benefit.As for how to interpret this correctly I am not sure. The FAQ is also rather explicit in its explanation that taking cover behind a Tower Shield requires a Standard action, and that said cover lasts until the start of your next turn. You have the option of taking a Move Action before or after you take cover....and thus as long as you take a Standard Action for cover before you move, you could feasibly continue walking behind the shield for the rest of your turn.
Myrridin 01-04-06, 10:40 AM	I was browsing through some old dragon magazines of mine and I saw a reference to using a tower Shield while Mounted saying it was perfectly legal but that the mount would not benefit from cover. Reinforcing my belief that you don't lose your cover by moving in fact all you have to do to get the cover is not attack; I could clearly see Someone moving towards an archer covered in his tower shield closing up the distance. Which completely screws any archer build against someone with a tower shield. Joy. It's probably legal, just sucks to be an archer. Though I believe that Telin pointed out that the archer can ready an attack on their opponent moving. So the oppoent readies to use the tower shield on an attack, then moves. They move, the attack happens, then the shield is set. If that works, archers still have a chance. If it doesn't....well, I'll be remaking my character soon anyways. The other problem for the archer is that there's no way to get to one side of the tower shield and have a shot. You don't have to set the shield in a certain direction, just walk with it and not attack.
Cerebus13 01-04-06, 10:45 AM	The other problem for the archer is that there's no way to get to one side of the tower shield and have a shot. You don't have to set the shield in a certain direction, just walk with it and not attack.Fortunately this is not true according to the D&D FAQ. You only gain Total Cover from attacks that have a LOE passing through the side of your square that the Tower Shield has been set on. If they pass through the corner edge of that side, you only gain normal cover (+4 AC). This means that if an archer can get a LOE to any of the other 3 sides of their opponent's square, they can negate cover gained from a Tower Shield.
Macbrea 01-04-06, 11:01 AM	Nowhere in a tower shields description does it say you set it down on the ground. What it does say: However, you can instead use it as total cover, though you must give up your attacks to do so. This means you loose your attack if you use it for total cover. It doesn't state that you must set it on the ground. In which, case the FAQ would be correct in stating that there is no rule preventing you from using it from horseback. But since, you are unable to give cover to another person with your possessions. There is no rule that allows you to protect the horse with a shield. You will notice there is a bunch of odd cases like that in the rules. Such as a person that fails to maintain minimum forward flight speed. (Because they don't have ability to fly) falls 150 feet the first turn and 300 feet every turn beyond that. And amazingly the land on their feet. For those of you that are wondering in D&D that means Maximum falling velocity of a human body is 34.09 mph. Which is quite amazing considering Terminal velocity of a human body is about 120 mph.
Guildlords 01-04-06, 11:35 AM	I noticed on the guild map that was recently posted in the Tavern that you have The Watchful Eye abbreviated as TWE. The common abbreviation that is getting used is EYE. Might be a good idea to change that so that no one gets confused. Just a thought. Huh? It's called EYE. You sent me a PM some weeks ago and I changed it back then. Perhaps you should look at it again. The map that was just posted in the tavern says TWE in the color portion of the map for their homebase in Merisia. I am not talking about list headers, but rather what the actual color picture map says...it still shows TWE. Take a look at the map you just posted in the Tavern and check Merisia. Above the shield it says TWE, not EYE. The map in the Guild Hall shows the same thing. NiQil, are you taking me for a ride? LOL The map shows EYE, not TWE. Furthermore, it does not have shields but buildings. The Merisia district for example has the picture of a tower. I am totally serious. In this post in the Guild Hall I see a picture with shields, that has Merisia listed as TWE. The address for the picture in this link comes up as http://www.caterane.de/CoCo/Karten/Gladius-City-Traits.jpg In this in the Tavern I also see a picture with shields, and this also has Merisia listed as TWE. The address for the picture in this link comes up as http://www.caterane.de/CoCo/Karten/Gladius-City-Conquest.jpg If you say one or both of those pictures shows buildings, then I have a problem, because both of my computers at home as well as my computer at work show them with shields. I don't think three different computers would have that same error. NiQil, I am at a loss. All links show Maps with buildings and EYE listed. I'll post it in the Tavern. Perhaps someone knows more.
NiQil 01-04-06, 11:44 AM	NiQil, I am at a loss. All links show Maps with buildings and EYE listed. I'll post it in the Tavern. Perhaps someone knows more. Check your PM's. Issue is resolved.
Vathelokai 01-04-06, 02:36 PM	What would you guys think of a separate post describing how to write proper tactics. Something comperable to the Streamline initiative. I think such an undertaking would require more spotlight time than would be availble in the Tavern here. I would volunteer to write something up, but apparently i am inadequatley equiped to write tactics that cover every conceivable action my opponents can take, and dont take up a 15 page word doc... Perhaps something to jump start the conversation... Tactics as intended vs. Tactics to the Letter :rolleyes:If you do do a thread about pitlords/pitlording, perhaps you should let all the pitlords make their own post on it. The post would have the pitlord describe their style, how they prefer to be contacted, maybe some links to fights they have run. Then you could just look up your pitlords bio before writing tactics, like so...Tactics in CoCo are also a matter of getting to know how certian pitlords interpret rulings and how others don't. I try to stay as true to tactics as I can until I have no other choice. Most of the time if comes down to if they action would have resulted in being crushed each turn. I am prone to say the character is smart enough to realize that isn't going to work. You could set up the thread with 5 or so reserved/opeing posts, and then let it go, with occasional updates. I've been considering for a while making a list of "Things that go without saying"; things like, 5 ft step before casting, move behind cover if I have a move action and the cover is right there, ... I can't think of anymore right now, but a couple come up every week.
Macbrea 01-04-06, 02:37 PM	I have a silly question. Are we allowed to take Craft(Trapmaking) and make actual traps. Here is an example of a trap that could be used in the arena: Spring Bear Trap CR 1; mechanical; location trigger; manual reset; Atk +7 melee (1d12+8/×3); Search DC 15; Disable Device DC 15. Market Price: 500 gp. That follows the rules exactly on how to build traps in the DMG. This nifty item could be placed in front of your archer to prevent charges.
Vathelokai 01-04-06, 02:56 PM	I have a silly question. Are we allowed to take Craft(Trapmaking) and make actual traps. Here is an example of a trap that could be used in the arena: Spring Bear Trap CR 1; mechanical; location trigger; manual reset; Atk +7 melee (1d12+8/×3); Search DC 15; Disable Device DC 15. Market Price: 500 gp. That follows the rules exactly on how to build traps in the DMG. This nifty item could be placed in front of your archer to prevent charges. This was brought up in the past, in relation to kobolds, and was not allowed. I'd love to see that changed though... Trapmaking and invisibility spells... so much better than calthrops.
Macbrea 01-04-06, 03:04 PM	Wonder why, it is a straight rule out of the book with no alteration. It didn't result in any strange effects. Hmmm. oh, well.
Vathelokai 01-04-06, 03:14 PM	Wonder why, it is a straight rule out of the book with no alteration. It didn't result in any strange effects. Hmmm. oh, well. There's also rules for buying houses and such, but there are house rules over riding that. Oh well... If you want to fight it, then just make a trapmaker and have him fight in the arena. It would bring it to the forefront.
Macbrea 01-04-06, 03:17 PM	Actually, I have a trap maker and wanted to know if I am allowed to make that trap. Gorak has a +10 Craft (Trapmaking). And I can see him using that trap in hunter fights. And there are rules in the game and class abilities that allow you to defeat the trap. Granted it would require a standard action to do such until your disable device was really high.
Warclone 01-04-06, 03:44 PM	I have a rules question regarding temporary hitpoints (AKA vigor/false life): I will compare Vigor to mage armor in this instance. If I have 2 mage armors cast on me, I have two +4 armor bonuses. Since they don't stack, there isn't a point to having more than 1 mage armor (unless you are worried about dispel magic). If you have 2 Vigors (5hp each), they also do not stack. However, the question arises when someone attacks me when I have 2 vigors. Let's say they hit me for 6 damage. 5 of it is absorbed by my Vigor, so I take 1 damage. Now, I have 1 vigor up that gives me 5 temporary hit points, so he hits me again for 8 HP and I take 3 more points of damage. Now my vigors are gone, and I have taken 4 damage from 2 attacks of 6 and 8 each. Does the above sound like the correct interpretation of multiple teporary hit point magical effects?
Papapeperoni 01-04-06, 03:50 PM	Are we allowed psionic gith (both)? They are listed in the XPH. BTW, what books are allowed? If I look at what's in the SRD I'd say; Core books, XPH, Epic LVL and Deities and Demigods (While of course, no character is even near powerful enough to use the information listed in the last two books). Thanks, --Papapeperoni, God of Pizza's
Mal-2 01-04-06, 03:57 PM	Are we allowed psionic gith (both)? No, because niether one is in the SRD. What does the word "Core" mean? What rulebooks can I use? Our definition of "Core" means everything that can be found in one of the following four sources (all D&D 3.5 sources): the Player's Handbook (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndcore/175240000) (PHB), the Dungeon Master's Guide (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndcore/177520000) (DMG), the Monster Manual (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndcore/177550000) (MM), and the 3.5 System Reference Document (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/home.html) (SRD). Every D&D rule used in the Core Coliseum can be found in one of those four sources.
Usurpator 01-04-06, 04:00 PM	Does the above sound like the correct interpretation of multiple teporary hit point magical effects? Nope, the damage reduces multiple sources of temp hp. at the same time. If you have two vigors for 5 hp. and are hit for 4 damage, both vigors will be reduced by 4 hp. Another example to clarify: if you have invisibility and invisibility sphere in effect on yourself and you attack, both spells are affected and expire, it is not like one absorbs the trigger and the other one is saved for later.
Vathelokai 01-04-06, 04:19 PM	I have a rules question regarding temporary hitpoints (AKA vigor/false life): I will compare Vigor to mage armor in this instance. If I have 2 mage armors cast on me, I have two +4 armor bonuses. Since they don't stack, there isn't a point to having more than 1 mage armor (unless you are worried about dispel magic). If you have 2 Vigors (5hp each), they also do not stack. However, the question arises when someone attacks me when I have 2 vigors. Let's say they hit me for 6 damage. 5 of it is absorbed by my Vigor, so I take 1 damage. Now, I have 1 vigor up that gives me 5 temporary hit points, so he hits me again for 8 HP and I take 3 more points of damage. Now my vigors are gone, and I have taken 4 damage from 2 attacks of 6 and 8 each. Does the above sound like the correct interpretation of multiple teporary hit point magical effects? You suffuse yourself with power, gaining 5 temporary hit points. Using this power again when an earlier manifestation has not expired merely replaces the older temporary hit points (if any remain) with the newer ones.Since vigor is not a dismissable power, it ends when you expend all temp hp, or at the end of 1/minute/lv. So if you cast vigor twice, it does not stack like mage armor would. Other temp hp spells/powers may work differently, but vigor deals with it in the description.
Ariel23 01-04-06, 04:21 PM	Powerstones of Dissolving weapon (ML2) - cost 150gp?This is really not true. This is a 2nd level power and the minimum manifester level for that is PsyWarrior 4. Thus, the formula is 4 * 2 * 25 gp = 200 gp. People say it's because "You just get a Psion with Expanded Knowledge who knows Dissolving Weapon." The problem is, you can't take Expanded knowledge for a 2nd level power until you have the ability to manifest 3rd level powers. This would mean a Psion 5 could take Expanded Knowledge as a bonus feat at 5th level. The powerstone made by a Psion would therefore be 250 gp. Even with the "Expanded Knowledge" debate [which does indeed work for some items] this means that every divine spell you purchase as an item or service...you should check the Domain Spell Lists first, and make sure that it's not offered at a lower level to Domain casters. In p&p D&D, this gets fairly ridiculous as there are so many supplemental Domains. Not to mention classes like the Ur Priest and Divine Crusader which offer 7th level spells at CL 12, 8th level at CL 13, and 9th level spells at CL 14! If the RAW had meant "The minimum caster level including all possible combinations of feats, classes, and prestige classes" I think they would have said that or clarified it in a FAQ by now. Those adjustments to Caster Level would also appear in all magic item requirements. Example: What is the minimum Caster Level for a divine Anti-Magic Field, an 8th level Cleric spell? a) 15th level Cleric b) 11th level Protection Domain Cleric c) 11th level Magic Domain Cleric Quick pricing question to make sure I'm doing this right: I want to buy an ML2 stone of Force Screen (it lasts longer). This should cost 50gp correct? If I wanted ML3 it'd be 75gp? I realize this is unaugmented, that would cost alot more (well for ML3 anyway). Universal House Rules Augmented Powerstones/Tattoos: For every two manifester levels above the minimum, the power level increases by one. This directly affects the pricing of such items. It only applies to augmented stones and tattoos*. Unaugmented ones use the normal formula. [* Me: Actually, you can't augment tattoos.]
Usurpator 01-04-06, 04:52 PM	If the RAW had meant "The minimum caster level including all possible combinations of feats, classes, and prestige classes" I think they would have said that or clarified it in a FAQ by now. Those adjustments to Caster Level would also appear in all magic item requirements. Well, the only thing that the RAW says, is that the market price is the price for what the one with the lowest caster level can cast. Scrolls of 2nd lvl spells made by Sorcerers cost 100 gp. to make, but have a market price of 150 gp. and sell for 75 gp. in CoCo. While they do not come out and say it directly, all evidence of prices support the statement you made. It is also why a Wizard with Limited Wish can cast a Heal spell with it, because said Heal is only a 5th lvl divine spell to Adepts. If you are not aplying the above rule, what rule would you apply? Differing prices for scrolls depending on what kind of caster you are. Are clerics from the protection domain forbidden to scribe and sell scrolls with 6th lvl anti-magic fields on it? Or can they make them and sell it at a tidy profit (at least here in CoCo). I am afraid your rule applies to all scrolls, powerstones and similar items.
MitzaVolchenko 01-04-06, 05:03 PM	I was trying to get my brain around more of the things that are CoCo specific. Character changes made after creation are a new concept for me, so I was reading through the Character Change rules and thread a bit to get a feel for it and am now thoroughly confused. Most Recent Post is a Good Example (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8156356&postcount=131) Why is Zevox allowed to swap a relatively useless feat at no charge and pick up a useful one while Mal-2 has to pay 5 credits for jettisoning two useless items in favor of useful ones? Neither individual presumably had used their skills in a fight. Free Changes: This applies to really minor changes, or changes that need to be done because of a new/altered rule in the Rules of Gladius. The same is true if you haven't made use of the item in question. There might be other instances where you can change the item for free. Any other change requires credits. Normal Changes: A normal change requires a fee and applies to something that you have already used or something that has not been affected by a recent rule change. The basic credit cost is 5° per thing that you want to change. For more drastic changes, the GM might set a higher credit cost. The line in free changes saying 'never been used' seems to be ramming headfirst into the line under normal changes that says 'has not been affected by a recent rules change'. It would seem to me that the spellcraft swap comes closer to having been used than a feat that is useless as a stand alone and a knowledge that has never been checked against. Is it because one change is more combat oriented than the other (though making all the snifty stuff is certainly combat oriented and can be done in the safety of your own home)?
Altaris13 01-04-06, 05:05 PM	A squat, square building crafted from granite blocks, this Inn and Tavern is for Dwarves by Dwarves. The shuttered windows are narrow and protected by wrought iron grating; the ceiling is low enough to make humans bend their neck or bump their head. What little light there is, is provided by a few everburning torches. Long, wide tables of hard, mountain oak fill the common room lined with short, broad chairs of the same sturdy wood. A trio of young dwarven lasses with raven tresses and pale skin prance about the room, delivering frothing tankards of rich, dark ale and plates of meat made to order. A gray-beard with many scars and a cudgel keeps the peace, along with his two fosterlings. The barkeep is a plump lady with proper sideburns and a dark blue apron. Hey guys and gals. I'm seeking your input. I'm putting my foot into the pot so to speak, and with Cat's permission will be establishing the Beards and Brews Inn and Tavern. It will be a place for Dwarves of all subraces and their ilk to socialize IC, hopefully generating some racial-orientated RP that is not organization driven. What sorts of things should I describe/develop? I'm hoping to establish an atmospere that is general enough to be alignment-amiable.
MindWandererB 01-04-06, 05:09 PM	People say it's because "You just get a Psion with Expanded Knowledge who knows Dissolving Weapon." The problem is, you can't take Expanded knowledge for a 2nd level power until you have the ability to manifest 3rd level powers. This would mean a Psion 5 could take Expanded Knowledge as a bonus feat at 5th level. The powerstone made by a Psion would therefore be 250 gp.Well, the only thing that the RAW says, is that the market price is the price for what the one with the lowest caster level can cast. Scrolls of 2nd lvl spells made by Sorcerers cost 100 gp. to make, but have a market price of 150 gp. and sell for 75 gp. in CoCo. While they do not come out and say it directly, all evidence of prices support the statement you made.Both of these arguments are wrong. Just as a caster can cast a spell at any level down to the minimum they need to cast it, they can also create items with a caster level down to that same minimum. A psion with Expanded Knowledge might need to be level 5, but they can create the item at manifester level 3. And a sorcerer who creates a scroll of Acid Arrow can be a mimimum of caster level 4, with a market price of 200 gp. The only time that absolute caster level matters, rather than mimimum caster level, is with NPC spellcasting services.
Usurpator 01-04-06, 05:19 PM	Both of these arguments are wrong. Just as a caster can cast a spell at any level down to the minimum they need to cast it, they can also create items with a caster level down to that same minimum. A psion with Expanded Knowledge might need to be level 5, but they can create the item at manifester level 3. And a sorcerer who creates a scroll of Acid Arrow can be a mimimum of caster level 4, with a market price of 200 gp. The only time that absolute caster level matters, rather than mimimum caster level, is with NPC spellcasting services. While I agree that Ariel's argument is wrong, my argument has little to do with that, it wasn't countering her argument that you quoted at all. My argument that you did call wrong actually isn't. Look at page 287 in your 3.5 DMG, it gives the minimum prices, and they are different for Sorcerers and Wizards. Your spells cannot be lowered beneath the minimum caster level at which you attain them, meaning a Sorcerer cannot cast (or scribe a scroll) of Mirror Image with a caster level of 3, his minimum is 4 (regardless of his actual caster level). A quote from page 282 of the DMG to convince you: A creater can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. [Followed by an example]
MindWandererB 01-04-06, 05:42 PM	My argument that you did call wrong actually isn't. Look at page 287 in your 3.5 DMG, it gives the minimum prices, and they are different for Sorcerers and Wizards. Your spells cannot be lowered beneath the minimum caster level at which you attain them, meaning a Sorcerer cannot cast (or scribe a scroll) of Mirror Image with a caster level of 3, his minimum is 4 (regardless of his actual caster level).You misunderstand me. We're saying the exact same thing, with one exception. You claimed that a scroll of a level 2 spell scribed by a sorcerer has a market value of 150 gp. This is incorrect: a scroll of a 2nd-level spell at caster level 4 has a market value of 200 gp, regardless of who scribes it. Sorcerers just don't have the option of scribing it at caster level 3. The example you gave ("Scrolls of 2nd lvl spells made by Sorcerers cost 100 gp. to make, but have a market price of 150 gp. and sell for 75 gp. in CoCo.") would make, say, a sorcerer-scribed Cat's Grace cost 150 gp on the open market, but have a duration of 4 minutes. If I marked: Scroll of Cat's Grace [4] [150 gp] on my character sheet, it would be wrong.
Usurpator 01-04-06, 06:14 PM	You misunderstand me. We're saying the exact same thing, with one exception. You claimed that a scroll of a level 2 spell scribed by a sorcerer has a market value of 150 gp. This is incorrect: a scroll of a 2nd-level spell at caster level 4 has a market value of 200 gp, regardless of who scribes it. Sorcerers just don't have the option of scribing it at caster level 3. The example you gave ("Scrolls of 2nd lvl spells made by Sorcerers cost 100 gp. to make, but have a market price of 150 gp. and sell for 75 gp. in CoCo.") would make, say, a sorcerer-scribed Cat's Grace cost 150 gp on the open market, but have a duration of 4 minutes. If I marked: Scroll of Cat's Grace [4] [150 gp] on my character sheet, it would be wrong. Ah, I understand you now. And I agree with you. It's just that the PHB seems to have 0 magic items made by Sorcerers. My point was that if you can have scrolls at different caster level, you will buy the one that is the most advantegeous to you. In most cases, that is the scroll with the lower caster level of the two. I don't see much of a market for scrolls of knock cast at a higher caster level than 3. The other question asked was: should you search through all different spell lists to find the most efficient caster level at which you anyone is able to cast the spell/manifest a power and claim you bought your supplies from a person with these characteristics? Unless you put limits on the availability of certain item creators, I think you have to.
Ariel23 01-04-06, 06:43 PM	@usurpator: I still believe there is no such thing as a ML 3 Dissolving Touch/Weapon, because if you look up that power, the lowest possible ML according to the power entry [link] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dissolvingWeapon.htm) would be ML 4 as that power is exclusive to Psychic Warrior. I'm fine with the way scrolls, potions, and wands work insofar as they use the lowest caster level (or ML) for the best possible class listed under that spell/power description. That is RAW and it's consistent--for spells that are on multiple class spell lists. Eg., why would you pay a Ranger, Bard, Paladin to make you a Wand of Cure Light Wounds when you could get a Cleric 1 to do it instead? Or a 4th level sorcerer to make 2nd level scrolls, when a 3rd level Wizard can do it for 50 gp cheaper? Obviously, you wouldn't. But any Cleric could do that. Or any Wizard. That's not at issue. What I have a problem with is using Expanded Knowledge to put a power on some mythical crafter/caster's list so that they can make something cheaper than what the "minimum" manifester level is according to the power entry. Why is it that the save DC of items is always set according to the minimum Ability score even if the creator has a 20? The reason is because you are supposed to be using the most generic abilities for each spell. We just go by the univeral class tables, not feats and ability scores, or special abilities. 5th level Wilders don't craft items at ML 7, for example. For those of you not familiar with Psionics, this would be like a Wizard using the p&p D&D "Extra Spell" or "Arcane Disciple" feats. [Which are fortunately not available in CoCo.] In p&p D&D, what's the minimum caster level for a Wand of Longstrider? [CL x SL x 750 gp] a) Ranger 4 with 12 WIS and 1 bonus spell [3,000 gp] b) Ranger 6 with 11 WIS (minimum to cast 1st lvl spells) [4,500 gp] c) Cleric 3 (A figmentary Cleric who has the Extra Spell feat and takes Longstrider at 3rd level) [2,250 gp] d) Cleric 1 (the same cleric; Craft Wand has a minimum 5th level requirement, but that caster may still make wands at CL 1) [750 gp]
MindWandererB 01-04-06, 09:47 PM	In p&p D&D, what's the minimum caster level for a Wand of Longstrider? [CL x SL x 750 gp] a) Ranger 4 with 12 WIS and 1 bonus spell [3,000 gp] b) Ranger 6 with 11 WIS (minimum to cast 1st lvl spells) [4,500 gp] c) Cleric 3 (A figmentary Cleric who has the Extra Spell feat and takes Longstrider at 3rd level) [2,250 gp] d) Cleric 1 (the same cleric; Craft Wand has a minimum 5th level requirement, but that caster may still make wands at CL 1) [750 gp]e) Druid 1 or Cleric with the Travel domain 1, 750 gp. Try Bless Weapon for a better example. However, the Extra Spell feat, as it appears in Complete Arcane, does not allow you to add spells to your repertoire that are not on your class list, so your examples C and D are illegal. C is furthermore pointless unless you wanted a duration of 5 hours. A wand of Bless Weapon would cost 1500 gp (spell level 1, caster level 2--remember that paladin and ranger caster level are half their class level).
Book5 01-04-06, 10:59 PM	Regarding pitlords and tactics: If all pitlords started their own "battle's thread" that they run all their fights in. this has the following benifits The battles thread will not become so huge that it should be pruned but cant because we would all have a conniption fit. (we could take battles off the stickys and put the guildhall or something else sticky instead) Easier to find your fight. ("who ran it?" instead of scrolling through the battles post) The initial couple of posts could work similar to the guilds (first post with pics and niftyness, second post a summary with links, third post for pitlords and alerts, fourth post for "the key", fifth post and etc for.. well the fights) Lets us personalize our fights more / isolate pitlord oversights ("I looked through your arena and you have never used charge attacks right" or the like) Basically all us pitlords would have "our own arena" and we could list our prefrences for tactics, our tendancies regarding interpretions, and personal standing regarding certain "grey area" rules.
nightbanegod 01-04-06, 11:35 PM	Regarding pitlords and tactics: If all pitlords started their own "battle's thread" that they run all their fights in. this has the following benifits The battles thread will not become so huge that it should be pruned but cant because we would all have a conniption fit. (we could take battles off the stickys and put the guildhall or something else sticky instead) Easier to find your fight. ("who ran it?" instead of scrolling through the battles post) The initial couple of posts could work similar to the guilds (first post with pics and niftyness, second post a summary with links, third post for pitlords and alerts, fourth post for "the key", fifth post and etc for.. well the fights) Lets us personalize our fights more / isolate pitlord oversights ("I looked through your arena and you have never used charge attacks right" or the like) Basically all us pitlords would have "our own arena" and we could list our prefrences for tactics, our tendancies regarding interpretions, and personal standing regarding certain "grey area" rules. I TOTALLY SECOND THIS!!!!... and it would be soo much easier for me to run fights if i just have a thread to post character sheets and tactics and then can update fight at my leisuer... and not have to deal with load time (*arg DIALUP*) for the regular battles thread....
nightbanegod 01-04-06, 11:36 PM	i think i asked this before but i dont think i ever got a response... if you are a lycanthrope... in hybrid form of an aerial animal... bat, raven, bird, ect, do you gain a fly speed with functional hands?
MindWandererB 01-04-06, 11:50 PM	Lycanthropes in hybrid form use the speed and movement modes of the base humanoid/giant, not of the animal. So hybrids can't fly at all, unless their humanoid form can fly for some reason.
nightbanegod 01-04-06, 11:58 PM	:weep: :weep: Lycanthropes in hybrid form use the speed and movement modes of the base humanoid/giant, not of the animal. So hybrids can't fly at all, unless their humanoid form can fly for some reason. soo.... no flying kobold of doom....
Ariel23 01-05-06, 03:20 AM	Basically all us pitlords would have "our own arena" and we could list our prefrences for tactics, our tendancies regarding interpretions, and personal standing regarding certain "grey area" rules.The bolded part could just as easily be done in the Pitlords thread. Each pitlord could make a post about their preferences (editing as necessary) and link to that post as required each week. Or put it in their signature, etc... This would be a good first step and would not require a restructuring of the current arena system. I'd also like to add communication preferences as to "PM" or "Post in the FotW thread." Some people prefer PM's, some people prefer FotW, some prefer both, some prefer email, etc.
Vathelokai 01-05-06, 04:44 AM	This would be a good first step and would not require a restructuring of the current arena system. I'd also like to add communication preferences as to "PM" or "Post in the FotW thread." Some people prefer PM's, some people prefer FotW, some prefer both, some prefer email, etc. I agree; having a fight thread for every pitlord would mean having 20 fight threads. That would be super clutter. The idea I had was to change the links in the "active pitlords" post to link to their self written bio; then the PM/Email/FotW preferences would be right there. Currently the links are either to the PM box or an Email address.
Dracazar 01-05-06, 05:30 AM	I absolutely need an answer to this question: Why Maven exists? Please let me know.
Pittbull 01-05-06, 05:45 AM	I absolutely need an answer to this question: Why Maven exists? Please let me know. Honestly, I have no idea, but Cat gave ToK the permission. The crazy thing is, ToK didn't show up in the last weeks and his character is still running. I think this is an abuse.
Guildmaster (CEF) 01-05-06, 06:01 AM	No, it's a board test and this is the only reason why Maven is still running. Tok said he found an abuse. Let's see if there's one. However, I won't activate Maven if she levels and is not updated. See it as an exception.
Altaris13 01-05-06, 08:44 AM	I absolutely need an answer to this question: Why Maven exists? Please let me know. IIRC, ToK believes he can lose his way up the ECL ladder making up the monetary difference of a loss through skills and not expending resources. I believe the "abuse" is that by the time Maven is at a mid-ECL (8+ or so,) that she will have accumulated much more weath that her fellow gladiators of a given league. By doing so, she will out equip her comptetition and start demolishing people. But, I could be wrong.
Macbrea 01-05-06, 09:12 AM	Actually, Maven isn't making horridly more gold then everyone else. Check some math on this one. Maven makes 116 gp a fight and will take 14 fight to level = 1624 gps Mektos at that level had +12 profession mining: Made 88gp and made it through in 4 fights for 352 gps. If you fought a 50/50 rate that would have been 7 fights for 616 gps. What maven really is doing is ToK has only one character in the lower levels. By placing a buy out there that gives the maximum exp to his opponent he moves people up faster to come play with his characters. For all purposes Maven is a buy with maximum exp gain. No resource costs . It is probably one of the best expendatures of Credits ToK could spend in order to make his character useful again. It moves up people faster then normal to allow him opponents. Does that mean Maven serves a purpose. In my opinon it really isn't nessessary.
Dracazar 01-05-06, 09:32 AM	My worry is why the Arena give me (Cher) more than 1000gp to fight Maven if they know that she will surrender? And also they give her 400 gp... I know that those are Role-Playing thoughts but, damn this is non-sense and I notice instead that many things in Gladius are consistent (i.e. Nimbus) Where all this gold comes from? spectators? I think not. I would like to hear, just to speak about this theme, your thoughts :)
Cerebus13 01-05-06, 09:36 AM	My worry is why the Arena give me (Cher) more than 1000gp to fight Maven if they know that she will surrender? And also they give her 400 gp... I know that those are Role-Playing thoughts but, damn this is non-sense and I notice instead that many things in Gladius are consistent (i.e. Nimbus) Where all this gold comes from? spectators? I think not. I would like to hear, just to speak about this theme, your thoughts :)Maven is allowed to exist because we allow gladiators to surrender. Some fights just aren't possible for people to win so they don't waste time with tactics. It isn't something we can get rid of either unless we impose some sort of minimum tactic requirement on people. Otherwise Maven could just write tactics of "Kill him with my fists" and still die horribly instead of surrendering. It would be unfair not to reward a person if they lose, even if it is through surrendering.
Macbrea 01-05-06, 09:57 AM	No, I didn't say that it was wrong. What I stated is that the character servers as a buy in order to get people upto the next level. As people get into the 5 to 8 range they are more useful to the people that have been here awhile. And for those of you that are curious about the All vs All fight math. AvA Single 1st 1800 900 2nd 900 900 3rd 600 300 4th 300 300 So, it is benefiting the winner and the third looser. Everyone else would have gotten basicly the same amount of exp for the fight. The problem people have with them is that they built their characters for single one vs one fights. And it seems to benefit the guy that decides to hide and run til the end of the fight.
Dracazar 01-05-06, 10:01 AM	And it seems to benefit the guy that decides to hide and run til the end of the fight. /sign [link] (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8137051)
Cerebus13 01-05-06, 10:18 AM	The tactics for Free for All fights are getting a bit rediculous. So bad in fact that I think I am going to request that my characters never be paired for one of those type of matches until some problems are addressed.
Macbrea 01-05-06, 10:24 AM	Hey, I have a silly question. With the 2000 degree lava in the center of the map. Is the room temperature of the Grand Hall 140o+ for purposes of heat dangers. Extreme heat (air temperature over 140° F, fire, boiling water, lava) deals lethal damage. Breathing air in these temperatures deals 1d6 points of damage per minute (no save). In addition, a character must make a Fortitude save every 5 minutes (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Those wearing heavy clothing or any sort of armor take a -4 penalty on their saves. In addition, those wearing metal armor or coming into contact with very hot metal are affected as if by a heat metal spell. This would be assuming that the lava has been for the entire 16 hour prebuff period and the room is enclosed. It does make for an interesting enviroment. Combats should be quick.
waywreth 01-05-06, 10:29 AM	Hey, I have a silly question. With the 2000 degree lava in the center of the map. Is the room temperature of the Grand Hall 140o+ for purposes of heat dangers. This would be assuming that the lava has been for the entire 16 hour prebuff period and the room is enclosed. It does make for an interesting enviroment. Combats should be quick. The lava is added by a high level druid (who is kept on retainer) at the last minute before the fight. Due to union regulations it is thusly drained into a after each fight by a fire elemental.
NiQil 01-05-06, 11:05 AM	The tactics for Free for All fights are getting a bit rediculous. So bad in fact that I think I am going to request that my characters never be paired for one of those type of matches until some problems are addressed. Won't happen....tried it. Either it's up for any pairing, or not at all...or so was told to me.
Macbrea 01-05-06, 11:07 AM	Somehow, I disbelieve. The rooms volume once you add the shelves is 473,000 ft3 with a 2000o heating element that is got an surface area of 600 ft2. If the room started at the average underground temperature of 68oF. I betting in under a matter of rounds it would soon reach 140o in the room. I will have to hunt down a calculator to figure out the number of them it would take.
waywreth 01-05-06, 11:29 AM	Somehow, I disbelieve. The rooms volume once you add the shelves is 473,000 ft3 with a 2000o heating element that is got an surface area of 600 ft2. If the room started at the average underground temperature of 68oF. I betting in under a matter of rounds it would soon reach 140o in the room. I will have to hunt down a calculator to figure out the number of them it would take. The material that contains the lava as well as the arena itself is made of a handy non-heat conducting material. Well it's that or D&D isn't meant to be based on real life physics :P. As long as you don't fall into the lava, you're safe (and man I've wanted to be able to toss someone in there since I saw it.)
Book5 01-05-06, 11:42 AM	@Vath - For first timers this place looks like a shambles no matter what, all the boards do. With three stickys (Pitlords, Characters, and Rules) 12+ Guild/Taverns 8+ Council/Administrative threads Countless quest threads.. the easiest way to "unclutter" the view is to alphabetize.. (P for pitlord! Q for quest G for guild etc) This can be set as the default forum display (for this board only) and will take effect if the user has the default "view forum by its specifications" option in their user prefrences. Note: This is a wacky idea SO Im hust gonna keep hammering nails till I hit somebody's thumb. preferably mine :D @Nightbanegod - If you do it I'll do it. No seriously. I got the idea from a re-read of the pitlord rules post that says "we can" start our own thread. You and me can perfrom our own little "systems test" and then if everyone just keeps making fun of us we can stop. I say to get the ball rolling right we should quote and repost all our previous fights into the thread. "this is what is will look like" kinda idea. You down? @Ariel23 - Yep yep your right. Other than the "Prune the bloated (slow loading, somewhat disorganized, technically past post limit - and there is a very good "technical reason" for that limit btw) battles thread" all the other benifits can be done in one battles thread. One of the things Im liking more andd mroe about this idea is that all the active pitlords could pull their fights onto another thread and we would risk loosing as much by pruning the battles thread. @Caterane (or pitlords, etc) - Can we get a pitlords or GM reply to the pruning sticky to officially inform us of the "fallout" so to speak First of all, what freak of nature puts a lava pit into their "grand hall" anyway!?! Secondly, while I had not thought of it. I want to do it now. BURN BABY BURN! Actually that would make a better hunter map.. when you think about it. "You dont get the points if the heat kills them before you get to them!" I guess that works for allVall too. So my suggestion Analyze the real world scenario - I think you'll find that yes it would be past the acceptable heat level. Say "Pitlord power hold the heat down in the grass leagues, in the mid levels add the environmental hazard, and I was going to wait till epic opened to suggest this.. but at high and higher levels actually go ahead and start adding "active hazards" like "Thats no lavapit! Thats a lava elemental!" - hehe at high levels you can make the lava/fire elemetal a low enough CR to not alter the rewards - but it'll still be a randomizing factor on the field. Keep it up. I dont consider Tan worth gambling on till about 8th level, say la vie. He is a great quest character and I prolly should take him on some. Characters in the 3/4/5 leauges are either running the field or waiting to level. If they are running the field (see telin's ural) they can run an allvall just as well. If they are waiting to level - then the systems is working fine. @NiQiL - What's this abuse? Just "I can make more money by never fighting" hardly an "abuse" when you consider your never fighting if you never fight - whens the abuse pay off? Thats the question I guess - "whats the payoff?" what are you going to give mayven that is gonna know our socks off and turn her power ratiing around? Is it a guilds thing? :shifty: at work early - no internet at home :shifty:
MitzaVolchenko 01-05-06, 12:51 PM	Regarding pitlords and tactics: If all pitlords started their own "battle's thread" that they run all their fights in. this has the following benifits The battles thread will not become so huge that it should be pruned but cant because we would all have a conniption fit. (we could take battles off the stickys and put the guildhall or something else sticky instead) Easier to find your fight. ("who ran it?" instead of scrolling through the battles post) The initial couple of posts could work similar to the guilds (first post with pics and niftyness, second post a summary with links, third post for pitlords and alerts, fourth post for "the key", fifth post and etc for.. well the fights) Lets us personalize our fights more / isolate pitlord oversights ("I looked through your arena and you have never used charge attacks right" or the like) Basically all us pitlords would have "our own arena" and we could list our prefrences for tactics, our tendancies regarding interpretions, and personal standing regarding certain "grey area" rules. I love the idea. I hate trying to find things in the battles thread. I mostly just keep a sticky note with the post numbers of things that I want to return to on my monitor. In the two weeks I have been here and pitlording/fighting it has already gotten a little silly...I have had to move to using the little sticky notes you use for marking book pages.
MitzaVolchenko 01-05-06, 01:33 PM	Keep it up. I dont consider Tan worth gambling on till about 8th level, say la vie. He is a great quest character and I prolly should take him on some. Characters in the 3/4/5 leauges are either running the field or waiting to level. If they are running the field (see telin's ural) they can run an allvall just as well. If they are waiting to level - then the systems is working fine. Can you please define 'running the field?' You seem to think that the lower ECL's are not meant to be a 'real' part of Gladius. I usually write stories for my characters, but my story for Sybil (who has a rich character in my mind) is: Sybil sighed loudly and turned away from the roster to address her dog. "Not this time, boy. there isn't much you can do in this one, and don't give me that look of 'But Fjord's dogs get to go.' I can't afford to buy you a half dozen companions...not even temporary ones like those summoned monsters. go on home, boy. I'll be home and later and you can comfort me while I soak in a hot tub to ease the pain of the death wounds...yes, I know that the Nimbus heals them. It is a human thing." Slowly Sybil made her way to the staging area of the Hall thinking about what she could do. There were just too many possibilities. She briefly considered looking up Fjord and asking if he'd like to forgo fighting and just hold a duet in the middle of the room. Maybe the crowd would find it amusing at the least and be gentler as the loser tags racked up. The thought of him refusing and being ripped apart by his dogs was unappealing and she let the idea go. As she sat down onher bench to wait, she ran through the myriad of possible tactics weeding some out as suicide and thinking that maybe crazy old Maven had the right idea. Finally she decided that she wouldn't quit. It was gonna cost her and probably be painful, but she would fight just like her pops would wish...well maybe not just like her pops would want...he did that knightly honor code thing and there was nothing honorable in the way she intended to go with this fight. It was suicide either way she went, but maybe she could survive longer than someone else...if only by a little. Leaning back, closing her eyes and getting comfortable, Sybil let the tactics debate drop into her subconscious mind and began singing the Dirge of Saint Solomon to herself. When at last she rose to go take her turn in the arena she was happily surprised to see the stack of coins at her feet. At least she and Gleason wouldn't starve this week. It wouldn't replace her equipment or make her rich, but she'd survive. Fame would obviously have to wait. Writing that was more fun than I have had thus far doing anything for my own characters. At third level and new to CoCo, I am quite frankly resentful of the mass battles. I got the results I pretty much expected last week, and this week had to write incredibly long tactics which may confuse and annoy my pitlords in order to cover the contigencies that might arise. Even with that, I actually sent the pitlords only about a third of the contingencies that ocurred to me. Now, consider this. Is losing fun? Even though Zwei took second in her fight last week she still gets a loser tag for it. Sybil, as a human bard, I expected to have no better than one win in four, though if this continues, she will never win. The mass fights also grossly favor those that have been here earning gold longer. 3000gp doesn't go far for a starting character. They have to choose between conserving resources and spending a loser's share or more on a loss. I don't believe that I am alone in how I feel about this issue. If the FFA's are going to continue next week, I would like the courtesy of knowing in advance so that I can request quests or bench my fighters before their records are unrecoverable.
NiQil 01-05-06, 01:50 PM	@ Telin: With regard to your question in the CEF thread, to my knowledge, class allies never need to be quested for, except for a couple of exceptions (thralls for a Thrallherd). If memory serves, you only only have to quest for your paladin mount if you want something besides the normal warhorse (like a hippogriff or something else), but you aren't of level to do that yet, if memory serves.
SoulLord 01-05-06, 01:51 PM	How about we Open a new thread and Pitlords link their run fights to this post and include their preferences. It would have no effect on the battles thread as pitlords would still be required to post the fights there but it would give gladiators a chance to see how that particular pitlord interprets tactics by looking at past fights.
Macbrea 01-05-06, 02:06 PM	@ Telin: With regard to your question in the CEF thread, to my knowledge, class allies never need to be quested for, except for a couple of exceptions (thralls for a Thrallherd). If memory serves, you only only have to quest for your paladin mount if you want something besides the normal warhorse (like a hippogriff or something else), but you aren't of level to do that yet, if memory serves. I would have to reread special paladin's mounts option in the DMG. But all paladin mounts are now summoned creatures from the celestial realms in the special mount section of the PHB. This means they just appear when summoned.
TelinArtho 01-05-06, 02:07 PM	@ Telin: With regard to your question in the CEF thread, to my knowledge, class allies never need to be quested for, except for a couple of exceptions (thralls for a Thrallherd). If memory serves, you only only have to quest for your paladin mount if you want something besides the normal warhorse (like a hippogriff or something else), but you aren't of level to do that yet, if memory serves. Then why does every druid in the CoCo quest for their new animal companions? Or is it just for the roleplaying?
NiQil 01-05-06, 02:22 PM	Then why does every druid in the CoCo quest for their new animal companions? Or is it just for the roleplaying? To my knowledge, yes, it is just for roleplaying. Otherwise, every ECL 3 Druid would have to go on a quest first thing to start with their animal companion. I am not aware of anything in the Rules thread that requires a quest for class allies, unless they are non-standard ones. For instance, a hippogriff as a paladin mount I believe would require one, or a more advanced animal companion for a druid (like a lion or something) would require one. But the normal paladin mount and druid animal companions or wizard familiars don't have to be quested for.
MindWandererB 01-05-06, 02:29 PM	To my knowledge, yes, it is just for roleplaying. Otherwise, every ECL 3 Druid would have to go on a quest first thing to start with their animal companion. I am not aware of anything in the Rules thread that requires a quest for class allies, unless they are non-standard ones. For instance, a hippogriff as a paladin mount I believe would require one, or a more advanced animal companion for a druid (like a lion or something) would require one. But the normal paladin mount and druid animal companions or wizard familiars don't have to be quested for.Rules of Gladius thread, under Allies, under Class/Feature allies: "Unless otherwise noted the character must go on a Quest to acquire a class ally." I seem to recall reading somewhere that characters that begin play with a class ally do so automatically (with a full complement of tricks, if applicable), but I can't find it now.
Macbrea 01-05-06, 02:29 PM	What his confusion has to do with is according to the rules. You have to quest for them. Unless otherwise noted the character must go on a Quest to acquire a class ally. Class feature allies use the 25 pt buy to determine ability scores if they have a LA listed (planar cohort, thrall), else, if the ally has no LA (paladin mount, wizard familiar, etc) it uses the abilities presented in their entry, modified by whatever bonus it gets from being a class ally.
NiQil 01-05-06, 02:43 PM	Rules of Gladius thread, under Allies, under Class/Feature allies: "Unless otherwise noted the character must go on a Quest to acquire a class ally." I seem to recall reading somewhere that characters that begin play with a class ally do so automatically (with a full complement of tricks, if applicable), but I can't find it now. I don't recall ever seeing such a phrase (though that doesn't mean much, I miss things all the time), but if it does not exist, then every druid or ranger with an animal companion, wizard or sorcerer with a familiar, paladin with a mount, etc that did not quest for them at the appropriate level should be in prison. That would mean a whole lot of druids, wizards and sorcerers never quested for their allies. I just don't see that happening. Keep looking...if there isn't a line of that nature, then either I am correct and normal allies provided by class don't need to be quested for, or we have a whole lot of characters that will need to be put in prison for not questing for them. I generally prefer melee types for characters, and generally avoid allies like the plague, so this isn't something I have delved into too heavily.
Zevox 01-05-06, 02:53 PM	Then why does every druid in the CoCo quest for their new animal companions? Or is it just for the roleplaying? Yep, I believe it would have to be. The SRD and PHB say that Druids can gain animal companions "by performing a ceremony requiring 24 uninterrupted hours of prayer". They say nothing about needing to find the animal first, so this ceremony presumably summons the animal when performed. At a guess, this would require merely a free action in the CoCo (or sitting out one week if I'm wrong, which would explain Druids instead opting to miniquest/quest for an animal companion rather than summoning one). Zevox
Ariel23 01-05-06, 03:00 PM	Somehow, I disbelieve.Oddly enough, if it were Epic-level Illusiory/Phanstasmal/Shadow lava, it would have the same effect, so maybe that's the secret. Maybe you should have a Duergar jump in and find out if it's real or not. Maybe there's a giant heat sink underneath the lava. Maybe the lava moat is actually a gateway to the Elemental Plane of Fire or to a demi-plane or pocket dimension, so the heat doesn't reach our plane. Maybe the lava is kept hot by fire elementals and the room is kept cool by Air Elementals. It's more expensive up front than regular air conditioning, but your monthly bills are a lot less lower... *shrug* Back to something that makes sense: I Alter mySelf into a Centaur (totally not a real animal, btw), Dimension Door by traveling through the Astral Plane, sneak up behind you while you're Levitating and cast Shocking Grasp which hurts you and not me, even though I'm grounded and you're not. Magic v. Physics discussions might actually be more fruitless than "Who would win...Superhero A or Superhero B?" And that's really saying something. :yuck:
NiQil 01-05-06, 03:03 PM	Oddly enough, if it were Epic-level Illusiory/Phanstasmal/Shadow lava, it would have the same effect, so maybe that's the secret. Maybe you should have a Duergar jump in and find out if it's real or not. Maybe there's a giant heat sink underneath the lava. Maybe the lava moat is actually a gateway to the Elemental Plane of Fire or to a demi-plane or pocket dimension, so the heat doesn't reach our plane. Maybe the lava is kept hot by fire elementals and the room is kept cool by Air Elementals. It's more expensive up front than regular air conditioning, but your monthly bills are a lot less lower... *shrug* Back to something that makes sense: I Alter mySelf into a Centaur (totally not a real animal, btw), Dimension Door by traveling through the Astral Plane, sneak up behind you while you're Levitating and cast Shocking Grasp which hurts you and not me, even though I'm grounded and you're not. Magic v. Physics discussions might actually be more fruitless than "Who would win...Superhero A or Superhero B?" And that's really saying something. :yuck: Superhero A would win...he has a pointy head. B is too soft and round to withstand it. :P
Usurpator 01-05-06, 03:18 PM	Proposal A new style FFA: CAPTURE THE FLAG. This FFA would also use the Grand Hall map, but instead of a statue it would just hold a pillar with the 'flag' and the Lava Pool would be the 'end zone'. Win condition Anyone who stands on the end zone for two full consecutive rounds without being challenged. Being challenged being defined as any other gladiator else setting foot on the end zone during those two rounds. Special rules - Any form of concealment or invisibility doesn't work in the end zone. Things like invisibility or fog clouds are suppressed as soon as such an effect enters the end zone. The same goes for any spell effect that affects the arena and has a duration other than instantenous (no entangle, spike stones or black tentacles on the squares of the end zone). - You cannot win or challenge someone in the end zone by use of illusions or projected images (although someone in the end zone might think he is being challenged), nor can you win or challenge someone by bringing allies to the end zone or flying or levitating overhead. You actually have to set foot on the floor. - Rounds in which you are inside the end zone but are helpless (held, sleeping, unconscious) do not count towards your consecutive rounds for the win condition. I hope this type of FFA encourages more active participation. Some gladiators can still hang back or attack from invisibility, but they have to kill or disable any opponent that reaches the end zone quickly. Opinions, ideas?
Macbrea 01-05-06, 03:28 PM	Actually, nothing prevents the pitlord from apply heat slowly to the arena as the players delay. After a 10 round delay, I can see a pitlord raising the temperature by 10o. Every 10 round after that raising it another 10o. It doesn't benefit any of the players in the arena. Personally, that arena should basicly have a special rule added to it: Round 01 to 05 -- 68oF Round 06 to 10 -- 78oF Round 11 to 15 -- 88oF Round 16 to 20 -- 98oF Round 21 to 25 -- 108oF Round 26 to 30 -- 118oF Round 31 to 35 -- 128oF Round 36 to 40 -- 138oF Round 41 to 45 -- 148oF Round 46 + -- 158oF This would put a sense of urgency to fighting in that arena and represent the fact there is a huge lava pit in the middle of an enclosed room.
waywreth 01-05-06, 03:31 PM	Proposal A new style FFA: CAPTURE THE FLAG. This FFA would also use the Grand Hall map, but instead of a statue it would just hold a pillar with the 'flag' and the Lava Pool would be the 'end zone'. Win condition Anyone who stands on the end zone for two full consecutive rounds without being challenged. Being challenged being defined as any other gladiator else setting foot on the end zone during those two rounds. I hope this type of FFA encourages more active participation. Some gladiators can still hang back or attack from invisibility, but they have to kill or disable any opponent that reaches the end zone quickly. Opinions, ideas? I like the concept - but your win condition is quite a bit biased to melee style combatants. I would say as a win condition remain in the "end zone" for 5 rounds, and in none of those are you attacked. Also it's more "king of the mountain". But anyway - I like your point. We need a way to get the All v All and hunter to be more interactive rather than the character that can hide the longest winning.
NiQil 01-05-06, 03:34 PM	Then why does every druid in the CoCo quest for their new animal companions? Or is it just for the roleplaying? @ Telin: It just occurred to me....didn't you and I have much this same conversation a few months back, because of the very same "unless otherwise stated" clause in the Rules thread? I'm certain we did. And at that time, I remember Cat saying that the "unless otherwise stated" meant that unless the class description gave you a way to give the ally other than a quest....such as the druid 24 hr prayer period, or the wizard summoning ceremony. The same would hold true for paladin mounts, since it is something that is summoned once per day magically. It is not something you have with you all of the time.
NiQil 01-05-06, 03:37 PM	I like the concept - but your win condition is quite a bit biased to melee style combatants. I would say as a win condition remain in the "end zone" for 5 rounds, and in none of those are you attacked. Also it's more "king of the mountain". But anyway - I like your point. We need a way to get the All v All and hunter to be more interactive rather than the character that can hide the longest winning. The only problem with that type of win condition is that a druid that hits all of his opponents with hold person can win without killing anyone, whereas now he would have to kill them all and hope they either fail their CDG saves or he does enough damage to kill them all outright. Same with a cleric or wizard that hits everyone with a sleep spell. He can win without killing anyone. Or if a druid manages to catch everyone in an entangle all at once...he just walks on in while they are all stuck. Too many ways to win without actually killing anyone.
Usurpator 01-05-06, 03:53 PM	The only problem with that type of win condition is that a druid that hits all of his opponents with hold person can win without killing anyone, whereas now he would have to kill them all and hope they either fail their CDG saves or he does enough damage to kill them all outright. Same with a cleric or wizard that hits everyone with a sleep spell. He can win without killing anyone. Or if a druid manages to catch everyone in an entangle all at once...he just walks on in while they are all stuck. Too many ways to win without actually killing anyone. That is not a big problem I think. If a cleric manages to get two or three opponents in a hold person, have all those people continue failing their saves while he is casting spells at the next target, and then also has time to walk to the center and stay there for two rounds (with all those held people still not breaking free), he deserves to have won, since by that time he usually could have killed them easily. The druid can indeed try this ploy, but all other people have to bunch up (and he must not get stuck himself too), and if anyone of those opponents (insofar they are not flying or whatever) reaches the center, they are free from entanglement. It does encourage the druid/cleric to go out there and try to hold or entangle people, which is what this format is aiming for: more active tactics instead of passive. It rewards a gladiator who goes out to the center and risks being attacked by multiple opponents who might try to prevent him from winning. It also motivated those skulkers to get out and attack those who are in the end zone or close to it instead of just waiting it out. It is a carrot method, instead of a stick method (like the rising temperature proposal). As an experienced DM I have noticed that carrot methods work *way* better than stick methods. People will try to work around stick methods (I already put a imaginatory scroll of endure elements into my gladiator's inventory as a reaction to the 'rising heat due to lava').
Ariel23 01-05-06, 03:57 PM	Maybe animals can't get into Gladius on their own, you have to go outside to find them? I can see Leadership as a quest because you have to impress and meet someone before they'll follow you. Any D&D game would probably have at least a short storyline about the new followers, rather than just, *Knock knock* "Hi, I'm Ravenclaw--no relation--your new wizard cohort. Pleased to meet you. And these must be my new adventuring companions...how do you do?" @ Telin: It just occurred to me....didn't you and I have much this same conversation a few months back, because of the very same "unless otherwise stated" clause in the Rules thread? I'm certain we did. And at that time, I remember Cat saying that the "unless otherwise stated" meant that unless the class description gave you a way to give the ally other than a quest....such as the druid 24 hr prayer period, or the wizard summoning ceremony. The same would hold true for paladin mounts, since it is something that is summoned once per day magically. It is not something you have with you all of the time.So what about the Thrallherd: it's even easier than the Druid, Find Familiar, etc... A thrallherd who has just entered the class sends out a subtle psychic call for servants, and that call is answered. Essentially, the character gains something akin to the Leadership feat, but with some important differences. Those who answer a thrallherd’s call are not referred to as cohorts and followers, but rather as thralls and believers, respectively. They...appear ...because a hidden psychic resonance connects the thrallherd and her servants. ... A thrallherd’s first thrall and believers arrive within 24 hours of her entry into this class; likewise, lost thralls and believers are replaced within 24 hours.Thralls don't care about reputation or Leadership modifiers, may not know who you are, may not have never heard of you, and are not allowed to even care what kind of person you are. I think "appear" and "arrive" are almost as explicit as the Paladin's mount coming from the Celestial plane. P.S. I've always had a question about the Thrall: It's Character Level minus 1. So a Thrallherd can never use their main ally?
Dracazar 01-05-06, 04:01 PM	A new style FFA: CAPTURE THE FLAG. I like it. My comments: - 2 round are too few, make 4 or 5 rounds. - Change the name, this is not CtF. - What about rewards? let me know. - Use it next week for only 1 fight (4 characters)
Macbrea 01-05-06, 04:03 PM	I don't care for it. It favors the warrior types only or the cleric with hold person. If it gets implemented I will just surrender each of those fights.
Usurpator 01-05-06, 04:04 PM	I like the concept - but your win condition is quite a bit biased to melee style combatants. I would say as a win condition remain in the "end zone" for 5 rounds, and in none of those are you attacked. Also it's more "king of the mountain". But anyway - I like your point. We need a way to get the All v All and hunter to be more interactive rather than the character that can hide the longest winning. King of the Mountain would indeed be a better title. I agree it does have a slight bias to melee combatants, but I don't see that's as a problem, since the Hunter and All-vs-All fights are biased towards skulkers and ranged combatants. I would like to see more options for melee combatants and not the odds always go to the evaders with their superior speed, alternate movement modes or undetectability. Let's have one type of fight where people won't say "as soon as the barbarian rages, I will withdraw and keep withdrawing until 8 rounds have passed"! I am not entirely sure about the proper duration for the win condition, 2 rounds might be too little, 3 rounds might also be possible, but 5 rounds is probably too long, at that length it won't invite anyone to go to the center. The center must have the seduction of an easy win, a win you can achieve without beating all the others. That same type of seduction that is currently so strong in the All-vs-All, only now it seduces gladiators not to engage. The type of seduction in the 'King-of-the-Hill' makes gladiators take risks and engage, precisely like a proper gladiator's arena would. I am not sure if the condition 'unless attacked' is a good one. Especially when combining it with a 5 round duration. You would still would tactics like 'I wait X rounds, and if the guy at the center isn't attacked by then, I shoot one arrow (or summon a 1pp astral construct) and rehide and wait for the other's to engage and kill each other. To break the current win condition, an invisible gladiator only has to move into the endzone and can retreat immediately after if he wants too. He might even tempt the person standing in the endzone to come out and hunt for him. Even a brief contact with the endzone during your move is enough to restart the win clock. So those with superior movement can still make use of it, it just is somewhat more risky.
NiQil 01-05-06, 04:05 PM	Maybe animals can't get into Gladius on their own, you have to go outside to find them? I can see Leadership as a quest because you have to impress and meet someone before they'll follow you. Any D&D game would probably have at least a short storyline about the new followers, rather than just, *Knock knock* "Hi, I'm Ravenclaw--no relation--your new wizard cohort. Pleased to meet you. And these must be my new adventuring companions...how do you do?" So what about the Thrallherd: it's even easier than the Druid, Find Familiar, etc... Thralls don't care about reputation or Leadership modifiers, may not know who you are, may not have never heard of you, and are not allowed to even care what kind of person you are. I think "appear" and "arrive" are almost as explicit as the Paladin's mount coming from the Celestial plane. P.S. I've always had a question about the Thrall: It's Character Level minus 1. So a Thrallherd can never use their main ally? Thralls are done differently, because the Rules thread specifically states that thralls, like Leadership cohorts, must be quested for. They are a specifically stated exception to the "unless otherwise stated" rule. I asked that same question of Cat the last time this came up.
Usurpator 01-05-06, 04:09 PM	I don't care for it. It favors the warrior types only or the cleric with hold person. If it gets implemented I will just surrender each of those fights. MacBrea, could you be more specific with your critique? If you have some good arguments against them, then it might be possible to address them. It is a rough draft after all. In any case, I would appreciate a more constructive type of criticism than rejecting it out of hand and immediately threatening to boycot it as well. If it seems a format so terrible to anyone that they would rather surrender immediately, then I think something is wrong with the new proposal. Would you care to explain what?
NiQil 01-05-06, 04:18 PM	King of the Mountain would indeed be a better title. I agree it does have a slight bias to melee combatants, but I don't see that's as a problem, since the Hunter and All-vs-All fights are biased towards skulkers and ranged combatants. I would like to see more options for melee combatants and not the odds always go to the evaders with their superior speed, alternate movement modes or undetectability. Let's have one type of fight where people won't say "as soon as the barbarian rages, I will withdraw and keep withdrawing until 8 rounds have passed"! I am not entirely sure about the proper duration for the win condition, 2 rounds might be too little, 3 rounds might also be possible, but 5 rounds is probably too long, at that length it won't invite anyone to go to the center. The center must have the seduction of an easy win, a win you can achieve without beating all the others. That same type of seduction that is currently so strong in the All-vs-All, only now it seduces gladiators not to engage. The type of seduction in the 'King-of-the-Hill' makes gladiators take risks and engage, precisely like a proper gladiator's arena would. I am not sure if the condition 'unless attacked' is a good one. Especially when combining it with a 5 round duration. You would still would tactics like 'I wait X rounds, and if the guy at the center isn't attacked by then, I shoot one arrow (or summon a 1pp astral construct) and rehide and wait for the other's to engage and kill each other. To break the current win condition, an invisible gladiator only has to move into the endzone and can retreat immediately after if he wants too. He might even tempt the person standing in the endzone to come out and hunt for him. Even a brief contact with the endzone during your move is enough to restart the win clock. So those with superior movement can still make use of it, it just is somewhat more risky. What about this idea....make it a true capture the flag match. Have a weightless flag or something in the middle of the map where the statue is, and require that in order to win the match, you must possess the flag for 10 rounds. Possession is defined as being carried on your person (to eliminate animal companions, mounts and familiars from counting, although they could bring it to you). This would mean that either you have the flag and have to defend against everyone else trying to take it, or you are trying to kill everyone else so that you can pick it up at the end. I'm sure this could be tweak a little to take away flaws....thoughts?
TelinArtho 01-05-06, 04:24 PM	Well, the problem is that would severely kill anyone with a bad speed - and severely enhance someone with a great speed. Picture a 4-way with Sir Valkin or Ural (speed 90ft...), vs 3 others with a speed of 20ft. 10 rounds would be nothing to run around avoiding people...
Macbrea 01-05-06, 04:27 PM	Ok, looking at my current characters. Mektos has a 4 strength and isn't designed to goto melee. The "End Zone" area you mentioned is immune to practicly all Druid spells. If the intent was "If Druid you fail" you have manage to do that. A melee character needs to do the following thing in the arena that you mentioned. Tactics for Gorak Start in corner closes to center Round 1 move jump down and double move toward center 80ft (only 50ft to area). Round 2+ kill anyone that enters with big axe Tactics for Mektos Start center front Round 1 Cast entangle on far corner to stop 1 opponent Round 2 Cast Entangle on left path to stop second opponent Round 3 Loose to orc Marcus Round 1 Move toward center and drop down. Double move onto pad. Round 2 Die to orc quickly You see the point to it. The brute fighters pretty quickly.
Usurpator 01-05-06, 04:33 PM	What about this idea....make it a true capture the flag match. Have a weightless flag or something in the middle of the map where the statue is, and require that in order to win the match, you must possess the flag for 10 rounds. Possession is defined as being carried on your person (to eliminate animal companions, mounts and familiars from counting, although they could bring it to you). This would mean that either you have the flag and have to defend against everyone else trying to take it, or you are trying to kill everyone else so that you can pick it up at the end. I'm sure this could be tweak a little to take away flaws....thoughts? NiQil, I like your idea! The flag should have the same properties as the floor of the end zone. No capturing and then turning invisible. But we could work out both ideas, and see if any one is good enough to actually use. @TelinArtho: people with more speed certainly have an advantage. But the Grand Hall is not that roomy that you could avoid multiple opponents for 10 rounds easily. This fight type is not meant for one-on-one fights. Besides, different enviroments favor different gladiators, and thus encourages diversity in builds. The enviroment should not favor one type of build so much that other builds have almost no chance at all. Just bet your ass that Sir Valkin would be among the first targeted if he would join in a 4 person capture the flag as NiQil proposed. In any case, they would not hide for 10 rounds, they would go out and try to disable Foreman as quickly as possible. And my primary goal with the new multiple-person fight types is to encourage active participation. And I think this type might promote such behaviour as well.
NiQil 01-05-06, 04:50 PM	NiQil, I like your idea! The flag should have the same properties as the floor of the end zone. No capturing and then turning invisible. But we could work out both ideas, and see if any one is good enough to actually use. @TelinArtho: people with more speed certainly have an advantage. But the Grand Hall is not that roomy that you could avoid multiple opponents for 10 rounds easily. This fight type is not meant for one-on-one fights. Besides, different enviroments favor different gladiators, and thus encourages diversity in builds. The enviroment should not favor one type of build so much that other builds have almost no chance at all. Just bet your ass that Sir Valkin would be among the first targeted if he would join in a 4 person capture the flag as NiQil proposed. In any case, they would not hide for 10 rounds, they would go out and try to disable Foreman as quickly as possible. And my primary goal with the new multiple-person fight types is to encourage active participation. And I think this type might promote such behaviour as well. @ Telin: The problem with that thought, as Usurpator stated, is that the Grand Hall map is so much smaller, if you are moving 80 ft a round, you are eventually going to end up going in a circle and back in front of someone...especially if it is a 4 person fight. And then there's the trick of getting down there to capture the flag to begin with, since, with that kind of speed, you will probably be the primary target since everyone will know that you have the ability to get to the flag before they do. Kill Foreman, and Valkin moves like molassas. @ Usurpator: I would also think that part of the rules would stipulate that you must carry the flag and be able-bodied for 10 rounds....no carrying it for 9, get killed by the person going last in initiative, and then have it be your turn at the beginning of round 10 with you in possession of the flag but dead because either you went first or no one could close with you in time to take it. I would also recommend, rather than having the endzone remove invisibility, that there be some sort of "locator beacon" that triggers when the flag is moved away from it's starting point. This doesn't nerf invisibility or hiding, because if you are good at it or if no one has a way to counter it, you could still win, but it also doesn't immediately make someone using those the winner, since, even if you can't find the person holding the flag, you can get a read on where the flag itself is....maybe make it an area affect that reports a 10 ft square so the person in possession isn't pinpointed. Thoughts?
Usurpator 01-05-06, 04:58 PM	Ok, looking at my current characters. The fight setup is indeed not very good for avoider/evader builds. I think we see (too) many of such builds because most arena types favor such builds. Just fly or move out of reach, or hide and snipe, and put down your opponent without any decent chance of retaliation. The current All-vs-All setup encourages and rewards this behaviour even more. Up to the point that none of the gladiators wants to move out of his or her starting square anymore. You have maybe seen the last fight of the three K's and Solomon. Two of them only wanted to engage after others were already fighting, one only wanted to engage if only one opponent was left. Fortunately my character at least didn't have such a contingency and saw one of the hiders, or all gladiators would have stood there like pillars. But I do think those evader builds should at least have a chance to come out on top. So this means: - Increasing the duration to more than 2 rounds in the end zone (obviously) - Possibly allowing more types of spells to affect the end zone. If Gorak just stands inside the end zone, and the duration is 5 rounds, Marcus would have 5 rounds to hit Gorak from hiding (sniping) with his arrows (and possible poison), since it seems that was what Marcus was built to do. That could easily put Gorak down, assuming Gorak doesn't move out of the area to seek cover, and assuming no one else opposes Gorak during that time. The counterpoint to winning once you are in the end zone is that everyone else will concentrate on you. What would Marcus ideal situation be, what tactics would he normally use in say a standard arena duel, or a current All-vs-All FFA? Mektos could just use his ranged attack while flying, and make a double move once in a while, touching briefly down on a square opposite from where Gorak is standing to reset the clock. It does subject him to more risk than he might be used to, but that is exactly the point of the setup. I do think that produce flame still works excellently as a druid spell, though. You have valid points though, but I do not think a particular fight setup or arena enviroment should give every build an equal chance of victory. Mektos would have an excellent chance of victory in the regular arena (with its 50 ft. ceiling) against many opponents. I am not seeing you complain about that imbalance. Besides, it is not like Mektos will be fighting regularly in such a fight type, maybe once every few 4 to 5 levels worth. Maybe you will come up with brand new and excellent tactics for the occasion!
Book5 01-05-06, 05:25 PM	Actually, nothing prevents the pitlord from apply heat slowly to the arena as the players delay. After a 10 round delay, I can see a pitlord raising the temperature by 10o. Every 10 round after that raising it another 10o. It doesn't benefit any of the players in the arena. Problem - using the delay to trigger = both parties getting penalized for one player's tactics. What if the non-delaying character fails their saves and the delayer doesnt?
King Uther 01-05-06, 05:51 PM	I would like to take this time for an apology. I have been AWOL here for some time, and a lot of it has to do with life taking a bite out of my time. In the next couple of weeks I will have everything taken care of, and hopefully be able to return to my original purpose here: to promote roleplay. I have the Gladius World map at about 50%, and hopefully with some time I will be able to give it what it deserves, a rightful place here. Anyways, I just wanted to say I'm sorry for not being able to contribute as much as I need to.
Macbrea 01-05-06, 05:56 PM	No, I guess the King of the Hill theory is fine. The 1 vs 1 arena does favor individuals like Harvester and Mektos. Which, Harvester would kill Mektos in a second, by the way. But they are designed to take advantage of the large area and ease of movement within the arena.
Macbrea 01-05-06, 05:58 PM	Welcome back King Uther!
Dracazar 01-05-06, 06:03 PM	Sorry for this little OT: I have a player with Scribe Scroll and lets say he scribed a scroll for 12.5 (instead of 25 gp full price). Now he wants to sell that scroll because it is of no use anymore for his league. I put the scroll under past expenditures section and sell it for 12.5 gp? (1/2 market price) so I lose no gold in this operation? Do I have to link something (I guess no)? Thanks @King Uther: Welcome back!
Usurpator 01-05-06, 06:10 PM	Sorry for this little OT: I have a player with Scribe Scroll and lets say he scribed a scroll for 12.5 (instead of 25 gp full price). Now he wants to sell that scroll because it is of no use anymore for his league. I put the scroll under past expenditures section and sell it for 12.5 gp? (1/2 market price) so I lose no gold in this operation? Do I have to link something (I guess no)? No, there is no need to link it, you do need to mention selling it somewhere (like your expenditures section). And indeed, you lose no gold. Is also the reason why some of my characters with craft skills or feats sometimes craft suboptimal things, because I can always sell them later if I don't need them anymore....
NiQil 01-05-06, 06:25 PM	No, there is no need to link it, you do need to mention selling it somewhere (like your expenditures section). And indeed, you lose no gold. Is also the reason why some of my characters with craft skills or feats sometimes craft suboptimal things, because I can always sell them later if I don't need them anymore.... Yep...Usurpator has it correct...the joy of crafting. However, in the case of magic items, while you take no overall hit to gp, you still lose the xp you spent to craft it.
NiQil 01-05-06, 06:40 PM	Question: Are items that have uses per day, such as things like Winged Boots or Helm of Teleportation, restricted by the 1/3 rule? Or do they operate as normal?
Usurpator 01-05-06, 06:41 PM	Yep...Usurpator has it correct...the joy of crafting. However, in the case of magic items, while you take no overall hit to gp, you still lose the xp you spent to craft it. And you consider the xp hit a disadvantage? It is the basis of the Maven abuse. The actual rate at which you gain XP doesn't matter, since you get paired against gladiators in your own league anyway. If you have an extraordinary large amount of gold when compared to other gladiators in your league, you have an advantage. So losing XP is actually an advantage in the arena, not a disadvantage, because it allows you to have more items than a comparable gladiator in the same league.
NiQil 01-05-06, 06:47 PM	And you consider the xp hit a disadvantage? It is the basis of the Maven abuse. The actual rate at which you gain XP doesn't matter, since you get paired against gladiators in your own league anyway. If you have an extraordinary large amount of gold when compared to other gladiators in your league, you have an advantage. So losing XP is actually an advantage in the arena, not a disadvantage, because it allows you to have more items than a comparable gladiator in the same league. Meh....I consider the xp hit a disadvantange because I always operate with the goal of leveling as quickly as possible. If you consider your goal to unfairly pwn your opponents because you have more money than them, then I guess it's not. Hence the reason I could never have a Maven-type character here.
MindWandererB 01-05-06, 07:01 PM	Regarding options for 4-person battles: I think the first choice should always be team battles. They eliminate the last-man-standing favor without changing overall balance. Better yet, they mimic paper-and-pencil D&D better. You could theoretically even have team battles with more than 4 participants--increase the number of teams and/or the number of people on a team, and have all team members start in the same square. A 16-person, 4-team match would be pretty cool as a once-in-a-while thing (although I'd recommend devoting two weeks to it). I think the "king of the hill" format will fall flat. Mobile characters will just attempt to kill all opponents, tough characters will be forced to use their normal tactics anyway, and stealthy characters will still be best off waiting for the dust to clear and then making their move on the last opponent standing. You can try it if you like, but I'm estimating that 90% of the time it will play out exactly like FFAs anyway. Capture the flag sounds a little better, but not much. Anyone ever play a Steve Jackson game called Strange Synergy? It shares a lot of characteristics with D&D, but victory is based on flag-capture. And 95% of the time it ends up being just a free-for-all, last man standing wins. The exceptions will be if there's a speedy character who just nabs the flag and takes it home without opposition. A mountie vs. a midget would be totally one-sided. Other ideas: ·A "true" hunter battle ("bear baiting"): target is a monster of CR=ECL+2. Whoever deals the death blow wins the match. Variant: it carries the "flag," you still have to bring it "home." Variant 2: use a volunteer character from a higher league instead (in addition to that character's normal fight that week, they earn no XP or GP). ·"Frag" battle: last man standing means nothing, it's all about the number of death blows you land. No penalty for getting killed. Variant: not very D&D-ish, but allow each character a certain number of respawns (say, 2). Variant 2: allow infinite respawns but end the battle after a time limit (say, 25 rounds). Problem with the variants: certain tactics, like "camping" on the respawning wizard, would be problematic.
NiQil 01-05-06, 07:49 PM	Regarding options for 4-person battles: I think the first choice should always be team battles. They eliminate the last-man-standing favor without changing overall balance. Better yet, they mimic paper-and-pencil D&D better. You could theoretically even have team battles with more than 4 participants--increase the number of teams and/or the number of people on a team, and have all team members start in the same square. A 16-person, 4-team match would be pretty cool as a once-in-a-while thing (although I'd recommend devoting two weeks to it). The reason the All-vs-all battles are being done right now is that the winner receiver more xp than they would in a regular duel. Cat's idea is to bump some people to level 4 quickly by having them earn a couple wins or seconds in these battles and even out the lower leagues a little. Right now, the level 3 league has roughly 3 times as many members as level 5, and almost double level 4. Team battles won't accomplish this, because the payouts are the same as a regular duel. I think the "king of the hill" format will fall flat. Mobile characters will just attempt to kill all opponents, tough characters will be forced to use their normal tactics anyway, and stealthy characters will still be best off waiting for the dust to clear and then making their move on the last opponent standing. You can try it if you like, but I'm estimating that 90% of the time it will play out exactly like FFAs anyway. I think at this point, the capture the flag environment would be more tempting to make people actually fight, rather than delay. Capture the flag sounds a little better, but not much. Anyone ever play a Steve Jackson game called Strange Synergy? It shares a lot of characteristics with D&D, but victory is based on flag-capture. And 95% of the time it ends up being just a free-for-all, last man standing wins. The exceptions will be if there's a speedy character who just nabs the flag and takes it home without opposition. A mountie vs. a midget would be totally one-sided. Umm...isn't the idea to get everyone fighting? If everyone is out duking it out to prevent someone from holding that flag for 10 rounds, then the goal of the concept is reached. Speedy characters may have a slight advantage reaching the flag first, but in the smaller Grand Hall arena, and with three other people chasing them, there is little chance of evasion long enough to win. Yer still gonna hafta fight yer way through. A mounted paladin vs 3 halflings is still gonna stand a decent chance of losing if even two of those halflings can attack at range halfway decently. And in the Grand Hall map, where are they gonna run? They'll go in circles, not really evading anyone. Other ideas: ·A "true" hunter battle ("bear baiting"): target is a monster of CR=ECL+2. Whoever deals the death blow wins the match. Variant: it carries the "flag," you still have to bring it "home." Variant 2: use a volunteer character from a higher league instead (in addition to that character's normal fight that week, they earn no XP or GP). ·"Frag" battle: last man standing means nothing, it's all about the number of death blows you land. No penalty for getting killed. Variant: not very D&D-ish, but allow each character a certain number of respawns (say, 2). Variant 2: allow infinite respawns but end the battle after a time limit (say, 25 rounds). Problem with the variants: certain tactics, like "camping" on the respawning wizard, would be problematic. Anything based on a killing blow scenerio won't fly here....it has been looked at time and time again and it just opens the door for vulture killings...hide until you think the other is almost dead and swoop in and take the kill. And I don't see anything related to spawning going over that well here either, as D&D is not, nor ever will, a video game, and shouldn't be played as such, IMO. YMMV
MindWandererB 01-05-06, 08:37 PM	Umm...isn't the idea to get everyone fighting? If everyone is out duking it out to prevent someone from holding that flag for 10 rounds, then the goal of the concept is reached. Speedy characters may have a slight advantage reaching the flag first, but in the smaller Grand Hall arena, and with three other people chasing them, there is little chance of evasion long enough to win. Yer still gonna hafta fight yer way through. A mounted paladin vs 3 halflings is still gonna stand a decent chance of losing if even two of those halflings can attack at range halfway decently. And in the Grand Hall map, where are they gonna run? They'll go in circles, not really evading anyone.Good point, but it'll still favor the stealthy. Scenario: fastest character (A) grabs the flag. Characters B and C gang up on him and bring him down. One of them takes the flag. They then fight each other for possession. Character D comes in and takes down the winner. Smart stealth characters will never grab the flag first--in fact, smart characters of any type will never grab the flag first unless they have a sure-fire escape/protection gimmick. That means whoever dumb enough to grab the flag gets teamed up against, or else the flag just sits there and the fight ends up running just like an FFA. Anything based on a killing blow scenerio won't fly here....it has been looked at time and time again and it just opens the door for vulture killings...hide until you think the other is almost dead and swoop in and take the kill. And I don't see anything related to spawning going over that well here either, as D&D is not, nor ever will, a video game, and shouldn't be played as such, IMO. YMMVYeah, I didn't think the respawning idea would fly, but it was a thought. I don't want to give up the idea of competition toward an extraneous goal, though. Perhaps a hunt against multiple weak enemies? That would make vulturing non-viable.
NiQil 01-05-06, 09:03 PM	Good point, but it'll still favor the stealthy. Scenario: fastest character (A) grabs the flag. Characters B and C gang up on him and bring him down. One of them takes the flag. They then fight each other for possession. Character D comes in and takes down the winner. Smart stealth characters will never grab the flag first--in fact, smart characters of any type will never grab the flag first unless they have a sure-fire escape/protection gimmick. That means whoever dumb enough to grab the flag gets teamed up against, or else the flag just sits there and the fight ends up running just like an FFA. Evading and delaying will always be a part of these types of fights...there is no way to eliminate it entirely. The design is to discourage it as much as possible. The idea behind a capture the flag match is that, if the delayer delays too long....say he's invisible and doesn't want to attack until there is only one other person left...then he runs the risk of losing. If, for instance, a speedy barbarian runs out and grabs the flag right away, and then has to fight off a ranger and a rogue to keep it while the wizard stays invisible, he runs the risk of the barbarian surviving for 10 consecutive rounds. The problem with a capture the flag idea is how to reward the people that *don't win. Do you still base it on kills? We've seen that doesn't work. Do you base it on how many rounds you possessed the flag in total (after the winner is determined)? That might work, but it puts the onus on the pitlord to keep track. But that could work. If the winner is the person who can hold it for 10 consecutive rounds (or whatever number is settled upon), then the 2nd, 3rd and 4th places are determined by total rounds holding the flag, and are rewarded on a set scale, with ties broken according to order of death. That would encourage you to want to hold the flag for as long as possible, which generally is going to mean that you are gonna be in the thick of it. Will there be exceptions and builds that evade and cheat this? Of course. But this might be a step in the right direction...one that creates the Free For All atmosphere but helps encourage action rather than delaying.
Book5 01-05-06, 10:09 PM	Ideas for "capture the flag" not a very "fantasy" title is it? - It sounds like were discussing replacing the all v all with this? Is that the intent? - "The Flag" is always visible, indestructable, and can only be moved by a player? (not ally?) - You get only looser rewards if you never even get your hands on the flag. Problems - Unless "the flag" is a large object it could become impossible to get away from another player without killing (or helplessing) them. ooh! what about "requires concentration DC 5 (+situational modifiers like damage) to keep ahold of?" Someone mentioned a larger than four grouping.. w/teams. Umm, I think that is part of intended guild wars setup. Well, maybe all of those limit to 4 too... there should be a "grand tourney" group battle version. 4 on 4 is good! But 10 on 10 would be great! "10 on 10" is not something you would just "fall into" via standard pairings. Thats also a pretty hefty fight to try an pitlord.. :mymy: but it could be done! Even.. should be done, if I may say so. Connect it to the guild actions (basically people sign up for them) would be my best suggestion.
Ariel23 01-05-06, 10:50 PM	Thralls are done differently, because the Rules thread specifically states that thralls, like Leadership cohorts, must be quested for. They are a specifically stated exception to the "unless otherwise stated" rule. I asked that same question of Cat the last time this came up.Thanks, I hadn't noticed the Thrallherd exception. What about Thrall = ECL-1, but the arena only allows ECL-2 allies? Does anyone happen to know? Do you just make them ECL-2 voluntarily?
Ariel23 01-05-06, 10:59 PM	Unrelated to anything going on except perhaps King Uther...Does anyone know who created the primary arena maps? The reason I ask is I was wondering if I could get a large and/or high quality image which might be printed out at a 1" scale without being too grainy. It doesn't have to be perfect of course, but too much gray will blend together if enlarged too much. If I'm very lucky, the original files are saved by someone and they were originally 5':1" scale.
Zevox 01-05-06, 11:31 PM	Query: if you have a congizance crystal, do you get to use its pp in addition to the 1/3 of those you possess? Not to give anything away, but this could have a big impact on a fight I'm running. Zevox
MindWandererB 01-05-06, 11:38 PM	Query: if you use a Congizance Crystal to regain pp, are you allowed to used those pp in addition to your normal 1/3 allotment?Not so late over here on the West Coast. You can never use a Cog.Crys. to "regain" pp, you can only use it to pay for powers. As far as I know, you are limited to 1/3 of the pp in the crystal, as you are limited with all other per-day items.
Zevox 01-05-06, 11:40 PM	Not so late over here on the West Coast. You can never use a Cog.Crys. to "regain" pp, you can only use it to pay for powers. As far as I know, you are limited to 1/3 of the pp in the crystal, as you are limited with all other per-day items. Yes, I noticed that I'd misinterpreted it. Now I need to figure out if my player factored his cognizance crystal into his pp already, or if he can use it for a power in my fight. *sigh* This is taking entirely too long for a fight that hasn't even hit round 15 yet... Zevox
MindWandererB 01-05-06, 11:51 PM	Yes, I noticed that I'd misinterpreted it. Now I need to figure out if my player factored his cognizance crystal into his pp already, or if he can use it for a power in my fight. *sigh* This is taking entirely too long for a fight that hasn't even hit round 15 yet...Taking a look at Chili's sheet, his PP are correct for his inherent total. Safest way to play the Crystal is, first time he uses a 1 pp power, he pays for it with the crystal. If he fully augments everything, then the 1 pp from the crystal is his last resort.
Vathelokai 01-06-06, 04:22 AM	Sorry for this little OT: I have a player with Scribe Scroll and lets say he scribed a scroll for 12.5 (instead of 25 gp full price). Now he wants to sell that scroll because it is of no use anymore for his league. I put the scroll under past expenditures section and sell it for 12.5 gp? (1/2 market price) so I lose no gold in this operation? Do I have to link something (I guess no)? Thanks @King Uther: Welcome back! The only thing you run into with selling scrolls is that the xp you spent to make the scroll in the first place is gone. Check out Auburn's past expenditures... She's been blowing about 200 xp per level on scrolls that were eventually sold... didn't realize that until I did an audit last week.
Vathelokai 01-06-06, 04:35 AM	Unrelated to anything going on except perhaps King Uther...Does anyone know who created the primary arena maps? The reason I ask is I was wondering if I could get a large and/or high quality image which might be printed out at a 1" scale without being too grainy. It doesn't have to be perfect of course, but too much gray will blend together if enlarged too much. If I'm very lucky, the original files are saved by someone and they were originally 5':1" scale. I think Cat made the main arena map, and I made the grand hall and monster fight maps. I didn't consider scale or quality when I made them; just threw it together with Dungeon Crafter and MSPaint. I appologize, but I don't have the origional bmp anymore; loaded the jpg to Photobucket, and had to make some room on my tiny hard drive. Here's the photobucket links - hope you can work with them. http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a327/Vathelokai/CoCo%20Maps/cavern2.jpg http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a327/Vathelokai/CoCo%20Maps/cavern.jpg
Usurpator 01-06-06, 04:38 AM	Umm...isn't the idea to get everyone fighting? If everyone is out duking it out to prevent someone from holding that flag for 10 rounds, then the goal of the concept is reached. I must repeat underline what NiQil has said here. The format should not prevent stealthy characters from choosing a evading tactic, it should just encourage them to engage and fight. The King-of-the-hill format works by using concepts of game-theory (I am referring to the scientific one here) to encourage gladiators to fight. It is the reverse of the so-called 'bystanders dilemma' (what the FFA's are currently suffering from). For those not familiar with the bystanders dilemma, it is the phenomenon that people who need help fast are less likely to get it as the group of people able to provide that help grows. If someone is drowning, and there is only one person being able to help, they almost always will help the drownee. If there are ten people who are able to help, there is a chance they will just stare at each other, expecting some other person in their group to help. If there are 100 people in the group, the odds will be even less likely that one would immediately jump in to save the drownee. Group security seduces them not to act in this case. In the 'King of the Hill' variant, stealthy characters still have the temptation to have others duke it out first and swoop in later. But they know that if the other players have a waiting contingency in their tactics as well, they might be too late to stop someone from winning. Group insecurity forces them to act in this case. Currently there is no incentive for characters to expose themselves to risk. I have not seen any FFA where the gladiator to attack first (from a risky position) in the FFA is also the last man standing. I also believe that none of those who were attacked first have won an FFA (could be wrong though). Clearly this indicates that you want to avoid attacking first or being attacked first at all costs. Thus an incentive should be offered to those who do take that risk.
Altaris13 01-06-06, 12:54 PM	Handy Haversack A backpack of this sort appears to be well made, well used, and quite ordinary. It is constructed of finely tanned leather, and the straps have brass hardware and buckles. It has two side pouches, each of which appears large enough to hold about a quart of material. In fact, each is like a bag of holding and can actually hold material of as much as 2 cubic feet in volume or 20 pounds in weight. The large central portion of the pack can contain up to 8 cubic feet or 80 pounds of material. Even when so filled, the backpack always weighs only 5 pounds. While such storage is useful enough, the pack has an even greater power in addition. When the wearer reaches into it for a specific item, that item is always on top. Thus, no digging around and fumbling is ever necessary to find what a haversack contains. Retrieving any specific item from a haversack is a move action, but it does not provoke the attacks of opportunity that retrieving a stored item usually does. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Wondrous Item, secret chest; Price 2,000 gp;Weight 5 lb. Quick Draw [General] Prerequisite Base attack bonus +1. Benefit You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action. A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow). Normal Without this feat, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement. Without this feat, you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action. Special A fighter may select Quick Draw as one of his fighter bonus feats. How does this feat work in relation to this magic item? Since both items reduce the required action to draw an item, can one use Quickdraw to draw a thrown weapon from a Haversack as a free action? I want to make a new character, and am concerned about encumberance issues.
SoulLord 01-06-06, 01:21 PM	How does this feat work in relation to this magic item? Since both items reduce the required action to draw an item, can one use Quickdraw to draw a thrown weapon from a Haversack as a free action? I want to make a new character, and am concerned about encumberance issues. As long as it could not pierce the bag (swords, axes, daggers,darts,javelins) and complies with the size limitations yes but it seems you would be better with an efficient quiver as Vathelokai pointed previously
Altaris13 01-06-06, 01:54 PM	As long as it could not pierce the bag (swords, axes, daggers,darts,javelins) and complies with the size limitations yes but it seems you would be better with an efficient quiver as Vathelokai pointed previously Huzzah efficient quiver! :cheer: :dancin: Thanks! :bow: :tiphat:
Warclone 01-06-06, 02:26 PM	This is an important point I want to confirm is correct: If you would have hit someone, but you miss because of cover, your attack hits the cover. If you would have hit someone, but you miss because of a tower shield, you hit their tower shield with your adamantite arrow. This means my arrow deals half damage (bypasssing DR to the tower shield). (half damage because of the below) Ranged Weapon Damage Objects take half damage from ranged weapons (unless the weapon is a siege engine or something similar). Divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the object’s hardness.
SoulLord 01-06-06, 02:32 PM	This is an important point I want to confirm is correct: If you would have hit someone, but you miss because of cover, your attack hits the cover. If you would have hit someone, but you miss because of a tower shield, you hit their tower shield with your adamantite arrow. This means my arrow deals half damage (bypasssing DR to the tower shield). (half damage because of the below) Could you post a Sample Round with the action you are trying to take to clarify it better?
Mal-2 01-06-06, 02:32 PM	This is an important point I want to confirm is correct: If you would have hit someone, but you miss because of cover, your attack hits the cover. Is that true? Those rules aren't in the SRD, and I think are in an optional sidebar in the PHB.
NiQil 01-06-06, 02:32 PM	This is an important point I want to confirm is correct: If you would have hit someone, but you miss because of cover, your attack hits the cover. If you would have hit someone, but you miss because of a tower shield, you hit their tower shield with your adamantite arrow. This means my arrow deals half damage (bypasssing DR to the tower shield). (half damage because of the below) Say wha? You only do damage to objects if you are attempting to sunder. You don't do damage to an object just because you tried to hit someone and the object blocked your shot. Otherwise shields would be useless after a couple of battles. You can sunder with a ranged attack, but sundering requires that you are tring to hit the shield, not the person using the shield for cover. For a visualization, think of it as the difference between shooting at the person and having it glance off of the shield, versus aiming right at the shield and having the arrow stick in the shield. So no, you do not get to sunder shields if you are just aiming at the person with total cover and happen to miss the attack. There's nothing saying that when you are shooting at the person with total cover that your arrow just didn't fall short and hit the ground, or fly over the top of the cover and hit in the ground behind the person, or off to the side or something.
Mal-2 01-06-06, 02:34 PM	You can sunder with a ranged attack Wha? Can you provide a quote for that?
NiQil 01-06-06, 02:38 PM	Wha? Can you provide a quote for that? That is what Warclone is quoting....here is the entire section from which he is quoting. It's not technically sundering, but it amounts to the same thing (poor choice of words on my part, perhaps....take a look at the highlighted sections below. BREAKING AND ENTERING When attempting to break an object, you have two choices: smash it with a weapon or break it with sheer strength. Smashing an Object Smashing a weapon or shield with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon is accomplished by the sunder special attack. Smashing an object is a lot like sundering a weapon or shield, except that your attack roll is opposed by the object’s AC. Generally, you can smash an object only with a bludgeoning or slashing weapon. Armor Class: Objects are easier to hit than creatures because they usually don’t move, but many are tough enough to shrug off some damage from each blow. An object’s Armor Class is equal to 10 + its size modifier + its Dexterity modifier. An inanimate object has not only a Dexterity of 0 (–5 penalty to AC), but also an additional –2 penalty to its AC. Furthermore, if you take a full-round action to line up a shot, you get an automatic hit with a melee weapon and a +5 bonus on attack rolls with a ranged weapon. Hardness: Each object has hardness—a number that represents how well it resists damage. Whenever an object takes damage, subtract its hardness from the damage. Only damage in excess of its hardness is deducted from the object’s hit points (see Table: Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points; Table: Substance Hardness and Hit Points; and Table: Object Hardness and Hit Points). Hit Points: An object’s hit point total depends on what it is made of and how big it is (see Table: Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points; Table: Substance Hardness and Hit Points; and Table: Object Hardness and Hit Points). When an object’s hit points reach 0, it’s ruined. Very large objects have separate hit point totals for different sections. Energy Attacks: Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit. Electricity and fire attacks deal half damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the hardness. Cold attacks deal one-quarter damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 4 before applying the hardness. Ranged Weapon Damage: Objects take half damage from ranged weapons (unless the weapon is a siege engine or something similar). Divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the object’s hardness. Ineffective Weapons: Certain weapons just can’t effectively deal damage to certain objects. Immunities: Objects are immune to nonlethal damage and to critical hits. Even animated objects, which are otherwise considered creatures, have these immunities because they are constructs. Magic Armor, Shields, and Weapons: Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to the hardness of armor, a weapon, or a shield and +10 to the item’s hit points. Vulnerability to Certain Attacks: Certain attacks are especially successful against some objects. In such cases, attacks deal double their normal damage and may ignore the object’s hardness. Damaged Objects: A damaged object remains fully functional until the item’s hit points are reduced to 0, at which point it is destroyed. Damaged (but not destroyed) objects can be repaired with the Craft skill. Saving Throws: Nonmagical, unattended items never make saving throws. They are considered to have failed their saving throws, so they always are affected by spells. An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character’s saving throw bonus). Magic items always get saving throws. A magic item’s Fortitude, Reflex, and Will save bonuses are equal to 2 + one-half its caster level. An attended magic item either makes saving throws as its owner or uses its own saving throw bonus, whichever is better. Animated Objects: Animated objects count as creatures for purposes of determining their Armor Class (do not treat them as inanimate objects). What it appears Warclone is asking is if a tower shield will break if you aim at someone using it for cover and missing...which it won't. Breaking a tower shield would require an actual sunder attempt.
waywreth 01-06-06, 02:39 PM	Wha? Can you provide a quote for that? Yeah... I thought it was melee weapons only (slashing or bludgeoning). You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding.
Warclone 01-06-06, 02:39 PM	Wha? Can you provide a quote for that? How would I get through someone with a tower shield with ranged weapons? There has to be a way-- I am certain I could shoot someone's tower shield with adamantite arrows and break it.
Scribelords 01-06-06, 02:41 PM	You cannot sunder with a ranged attack unless you have the feat in Complete Warrior. So, in essence, here you cannot sunder with a ranged weapon. Also, I have come up with a new idea for roleplay. Tell me what you think here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=564513) The original Tales of Gladius will not be big enough to do what I desire, hence the creation of a new thread. When eerything has started it will be an awesome thing to see.
NiQil 01-06-06, 02:44 PM	How would I get through someone with a tower shield with ranged weapons? There has to be a way-- I am certain I could shoot someone's tower shield with adamantite arrows and break it. Sorry....by core rules you can't sunder with ranged weapons. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.
waywreth 01-06-06, 02:49 PM	How would I get through someone with a tower shield with ranged weapons? There has to be a way-- I am certain I could shoot someone's tower shield with adamantite arrows and break it. The best work-around was TelinArtho's idea of readying an action to shoot when when the user of the tower shield moved. Of course if they don't move you stand there looking at each other.
SoulLord 01-06-06, 02:52 PM	How would I get through someone with a tower shield with ranged weapons? There has to be a way-- I am certain I could shoot someone's tower shield with adamantite arrows and break it. Throw a tanglefoot bag at them and then move around to the side not protected by the shield
SoulLord 01-06-06, 02:53 PM	The best work-around was TelinArtho's idea of readying an action to shoot when when the user of the tower shield moved. Of course if they don't move you stand there looking at each other. You don't lose your cover bonus by moving.
NiQil 01-06-06, 02:53 PM	Throw a tanglefoot bag at them and then move around to the side not protected by the shield Except with total cover the tanglefoot bag won't hit either.
Usurpator 01-06-06, 02:57 PM	This is an important point I want to confirm is correct: If you would have hit someone, but you miss because of cover, your attack hits the cover. If you would have hit someone, but you miss because of a tower shield, you hit their tower shield with your adamantite arrow. This means my arrow deals half damage (bypasssing DR to the tower shield). You did hit the cover when you missed due to cover in 3.0, but the rule was removed in 3.5. Why? Because it was a pain in the ***, because it also included a rule that if the cover had a Dex bonus, the cover could 'move out of the way' and you would still hit the original target. Which meant that everyone with at least 18 Dex would could serve as cover. "I hit, no I miss due to cover, so I hit the cover, but it has dodge bonus, how much points, oh, so now I actually miss the cover, and so I hit, the original target, right? Crazy stuff... :confused:
SoulLord 01-06-06, 03:01 PM	Except with total cover the tanglefoot bag won't hit either. As odd as it looks by the RAW it seems you are correct. How about throwing alchemist fires targeting the square the user of the tower shield is in?
TelinArtho 01-06-06, 03:01 PM	Well, the trick I was telling isn't valid anymore because the situation isn't legal. What I was saying was to ready to fire against someone moving when that someone readies to put the shield up for total cover on you firing. However, against someone who is merely putting up the shield and moving blindly towards you - albeit slowly- the only thing you can do (if ranged attacks are your only trick) is to hope that they have something in their tactics to drop the shield. This kind of addresses another issue with some builds: One-trick ponies. For instance, Thwap McSmash is excellent at causing great damage in melee or at range - but relies heavily upon his rage - which he often uses early in the fight. But what if he was up against someone who could shatter his bow or someone who had invisibility or even greater invisibility? Or what about a flying opponent with entropic shield/blur/displacement? His effectiveness decreases significantly. And then finally there's that pesky type of build who is more effective in melee - who uses the tower shield to block ranged attacks. What can Thwap do? Well- improvise... How about alchemist's fire - splash damage is still splash damage after all. How about a nice necklace of fireballs to teach the pesky critter a lesson? How about hiring a merc with shatter... How about a bag of tricks and send the animals to melee with him... Tower shields may be tough to overcome for a ranged character - but you should come up with tactics that can get around them. They are, after all, just one non-magical item.
TroubleWolf 01-06-06, 05:46 PM	Are we allowed to create threads? Let's say I want to start a freeform roleplay, but I don't want to join a Guild or go on a Quest. I don't want to create a thread if we're not supposed to, though.
TelinArtho 01-06-06, 05:51 PM	Hmmm - probably best to ask Cat about that - but I believe the answer is "not really." You don't have to belong to a particular guild to post there - so don't feel discouraged to role-play as much as you want there. If you can't find a suitable place to post in there - you could always dredge up the old roleplay thread or even just post here in character (it doesn't happen often - but some people do come to this thread for it)
Altaris13 01-06-06, 05:57 PM	Are we allowed to create threads? Let's say I want to start a freeform roleplay, but I don't want to join a Guild or go on a Quest. I don't want to create a thread if we're not supposed to, though. I've been wondering that too. And I've exchanged PMs with Cat about it. I agree with Telin about not posting random RP threads, but there are fixes for that. I'm working up a DM-approved RP-only thread (no guilds, no mechanics, etc) centered around Dwarves. Others will be welcome of course, the Dwarf bit is just a "schtick". Atmosphere, setting, and so forth. You can also "belong" to a guild for RP purposes without questing. Heck, you can even post in any guild thread, if it is for RP.
Altaris13 01-06-06, 06:07 PM	Rohan Darkheart (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8175143&postcount=633) has skulked into Gladius in search of riches and reknown. Please review and advise, suggestions/critiques are welcome.
MindWandererB 01-06-06, 06:22 PM	Rohan Darkheart (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8175143&postcount=633) has skulked into Gladius in search of riches and reknown. Please review and advise, suggestions/critiques are welcome.Is this character supposed to be used for campaigns? You have 5 ranks in Appraise but no Bluff or Sense Motive, so those points are useless, and I can't figure out why you have Disguise and Open Lock. He has PBS and Quick-Draw but no thrown weapons--is his main gimmick to bombard opponents with alchy fire and acid? It's an interesting strategy, cute way of doing sneak attack touch attacks, if you can sneak up to within 10 feet. I'm not sure you can store vials in an Efficient Quiver. It says you can store up to so many items of the same "general size and shape" as an arrow, javelin, or bow, which I'm not sure acid, thunderstones, etc. qualify as.
Dracazar 01-06-06, 08:02 PM	Do you think that a CoCo dice roller would be nice? I'm saying that, if needed, I can code an our dice roller, with the same interface of Invisible's one, with custom features if needed. Also it could be possible to include the rolls inside the fight... What do you think about? Leave as is, or lets try?
Maraxus 01-06-06, 08:45 PM	What custom features do you think of? Hm, I don't know, but I did not yet deal with your pitlord template, too... But I have a rules-question: Does small ammunition only weith 1/2 of what medium-sized ammunition weigth?
NiQil 01-07-06, 12:37 AM	Question... I know that you can pay credits to change alignment.....and I am pretty sure it can be done as a part of a quest....but can it be done in a miniquest?
Gonbow 01-07-06, 12:57 AM	But I have a rules-question: Does small ammunition only weith 1/2 of what medium-sized ammunition weigth? Yep. For an example of this, look at my character Tatyana (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7118092) who has a bundle of Colossal Crossbow Bolts, amazing damage they do for their weight ;) (With Telekinetic Thrust mind, working a Colossal Crossbow is beyond the mein of most gladiators)
King Uther 01-07-06, 01:51 AM	@Troublewolf As the Scribelords account user, I have the say-so when it comes to roleplay uses, since my job is to facilitate it. I am coming up with a new way for stories like that to come into focus, that we might see more roleplay. For now until I get it set up I don't expect anything, but if you'll email me something I could give you permission to post it and I'll link it in the Gladius Legends. My email is cancun_master@yahoo.com. This invitation is for everyone.
King Uther 01-07-06, 01:52 AM	Colossal Arrows only do 2d8 damage (as daggers), whereas Huge Bastard Swords deal 3d8, and Colossal Sianghams deal 4d6.
Altaris13 01-07-06, 02:30 AM	Is this character supposed to be used for campaigns? You have 5 ranks in Appraise but no Bluff or Sense Motive, so those points are useless, and I can't figure out why you have Disguise and Open Lock. He has PBS and Quick-Draw but no thrown weapons--is his main gimmick to bombard opponents with alchy fire and acid? It's an interesting strategy, cute way of doing sneak attack touch attacks, if you can sneak up to within 10 feet. I'm not sure you can store vials in an Efficient Quiver. It says you can store up to so many items of the same "general size and shape" as an arrow, javelin, or bow, which I'm not sure acid, thunderstones, etc. qualify as. Rohan will probably be a questing character, one I designed to earn the EHTC some lower ECL income. I had the extra ranks for open lock, which can be useful in quests and Disguise is to qualify (eventually) for Assassin. The appraise 5 is qualify for EHTC Guildmembership. And yeah, his main gimmick to burn his opponents. :D Close range gimmick sure, but it affords a dual purpose for his feats and with a +10 vs a touch AC, chances are pretty good I can hit. I was originally going to go with the Handy Haversack for just that question, but the Quiver was suggested for what the Quickdraw Thrower would need, not that the suggester knew I would be using alchemical items but hey. And besides, if a quiver can hold 10 bows/staves/spears/whatever, it can hold vials that are much smaller.
Cerebus13 01-07-06, 02:40 AM	Colossal Arrows only do 2d8 damage (as daggers), whereas Huge Bastard Swords deal 3d8, and Colossal Sianghams deal 4d6.Check this (http://d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm) weapon sizing table. Colossal Daggers are 3d6 damage.
King Uther 01-07-06, 02:48 AM	Good call. For some reason I was going from 1d8 to 1d10 to 2d8. Not the case with daggers.
Vathelokai 01-07-06, 03:43 AM	I was originally going to go with the Handy Haversack for just that question, but the Quiver was suggested for what the Quickdraw Thrower would need, not that the suggester knew I would be using alchemical items but hey. And besides, if a quiver can hold 10 bows/staves/spears/whatever, it can hold vials that are much smaller.Actually, efficient quiver came up a few days ago when someone suggested putting throwing axes in a haversack... This appears to be a typical arrow container capable of holding about twenty arrows. It has three distinct portions, each with a nondimensional space allowing it to store far more than would normally be possible. The first and smallest one can contain up to sixty objects of the same general size and shape as an arrow. The second slightly longer compartment holds up to eighteen objects of the same general size and shape as a javelin. The third and longest portion of the case contains as many as six objects of the same general size and shape as a bow (spears, staffs, or the like). Once the owner has filled it, the quiver can produce any item she wishes, as if from a regular quiver or scabbard. The efficient quiver weighs the same no matter what’s placed inside it. Here's my guess... pouch #1= 60 arrows = 9 lbs = 3 medium items = 1 ft x 1 ft x 3 ft pouch #2= 18 javelins = 32 lbs = 18 one handed weapons = 1 ft x 1 ft x 4 ft pouch #3= 6 bow/staff/spears = 18-54 lbs = 6 two handed weapons = 1 ft. x 1 ft. x 6/10 ft alchemical items = 1 lb. each = 1 medium item(?) = 1/3 one handed weapon (?) ... but since the RAW dosn't explicitly say how it works...? Since the arrows are the only pointy object, you might be able to go with the haversack; it does carry twice as much weight.
Prisonlords 01-07-06, 07:51 AM	Everyone, Due to popular demand, I have created this post in the Prison, which shall be known as the Court Rulings post. With a huge thank you to Cerebus13 for doing a good deal of the legwork on the information that is located there now, it now will be the place that rules clarifications, house rules, and decisions on ambiguous rulings will be kept track of. As stated in that post, if you see something that needs correcting, or have new evidence on an issue, or would like to see an issue brought back under discussion, send a PM to Prisonlords and everything will be reviewed for appropriate action. Also, if you know of any rulings that are not currently located in that post that we use regularly, please send those to Prisonlords as well, so that they can be added. Feedback is always welcome!
Vathelokai 01-07-06, 09:13 AM	As stated in that post, if you see something that needs correcting, or have new evidence on an issue, or would like to see an issue brought back under discussion, send a PM to Prisonlords and everything will be reviewed for appropriate action.Big fat PM sent to prisonlords :D
Warclone 01-07-06, 12:13 PM	YES! Electric toad of destruction and an incredibly lucky damage roll merge in a perfect union of victory against all odds.
Usurpator 01-07-06, 03:00 PM	Everyone, Due to popular demand, I have created this post in the Prison, which shall be known as the Court Rulings post. NiQil, thanks a lot, it is hugely welcome. Hopefully it will be linked in multiple locations from the Rules of Gladius or other central places....
Usurpator 01-07-06, 05:06 PM	Moved to Tavern since a questlog isn't the place for this: Actually - technically you cannot share spells from scrolls or other magic items (for more information - check the Arcane Order's links - they have the rules source for this). I was not aware, I always though you 'cast' spells from a scroll. Has there been some FAQ entry or somesuch about it? Share Spells: At the master’s option, he may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) he casts on himself also affect his familiar. Determine Effect: A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. Assume the scroll spell’s caster level is always the minimum level required to cast the spell for the character who scribed the scroll (usually twice the spell’s level, minus 1), unless the caster specifically desires otherwise. At least, from the above quotes I make out that it works exactly like a spell cast the normal way, thus including how it affects familiars. If what you say is true, it would also means you cannot counter (as counterspell) a spell from a scroll, since it is apparently not 'cast'. Additionally, you cannot identify spells from scrolls, since the Spellcraft skill also uses the keyword 'cast'. Is that true too?
TelinArtho 01-08-06, 12:39 AM	Here's the post in the Arcane Order about sharing spells (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7660565) These lists have been compiled based on the SRD and Rules of the Game articles by Skip Williams; specificly the articles Polymorphing 2: Alter Self, Polymorph 4: Other shapeshifting, and Familiars 2: Special abilities. Spell chains (example: cure light, cure moderate, mass cure serious, etc.) have not been fully included. Only the lowest level version has been listed, unless different versions are have radically different effects. Spells from all lists have been included, in case of multiclassing. It's important to note that only spells cast by the wizard are shared. Spells from magic items (scrolls, wands, wonderous items, etc.) cannot be shared. Here's the Rules of the Game article where it is discussed (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050913a)
Usurpator 01-08-06, 05:08 AM	Here's the Rules of the Game article where it is discussed (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050913a) Thanks. I must say, I have read a part of that Rules of the Games article, and now I know why I never use these articles in my own games (and are ridiculed over at ENWorld). That's just all kinds of weird. Spells that affect ability scores can't be shared because the master and the familiar have different ability scores! :confused: That's just utter crap. By the same logic, they cannot share spells that improve saving throws, because they have different saving throws. This is what Skip essentially says: Any magic that enhances or improves a ....... must go to either the master of the familiar if they have different ..... He then substitutes the ...... for 'hit points' and 'ability scores', but not so with 'saving throws' or 'attack'. Why? No explanation. Logic? None. Once again, I think poor Skip doesn't really know what he is talking about, and I think Rules of the Game simply aren't written well enough to serve as hard rules in CoCo. Skip's article creates more problems than it solves, since if I take the same reasoning, most things cannot be shared. Sharing mage armor or shield, sorry, no can do because master and familiar both have a different 'Armor Class'. Skip's article makes something we rarely have questions about in our game something difficult. I don't know about you guys, but bull's strength, cure light wounds etc. etc. were always shared. And reducing one of them in effectiveness (like protection from energy) didn't count towards the other, just like one expiring duration didn't count against the other. Both spells were not in 'constant communication' about how the other's spell was doing. I am sorry to say, but these rules are just so idiotic, that while I will accept them for my characters, but have to refuse to use them as a Pitlord. I will accept and enforce the 'no spells cast from scrolls can be shared' rule, since that one is clear enough. It still doesn't answer the question if scroll spells can be countered and identified through spellcraft though.
Vathelokai 01-08-06, 05:14 AM	A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. I hate this line. Here's my take on that line: the spell is prepared and cast normally, but its effect is not nessicarily the same as if you cast it. Subtle differences.... Examples: If you have a scroll of featherfall, you can cast the spell from the scroll normally, except that you cannot do it as a free action. The minimum casting time for a scroll is a standard action. Thus you are 'casting' the spell, but it does not function as if cast the 'normal' way. If you use a dispel magic scroll to counterspell, you use the scrolls caster level for the check. A 'normaly cast' dispel uses your caster level. If you cast circle of protection from evil you "normaly" make a circle of powdered silver on the floor. When you cast from a scroll, the material component of the spell is always replaced with the scroll itself. Rant What I think they ment by "prepared and cast normaly" is that you have to use the verbal, somatic components, and if you are banned from casting that spell you are banned from using the scroll. All caster level dependant varialbles, material (including focus and xp) components, and save DCs are not "normal" at all. Then, while trying to look this stuff up, I found some other things... This came up last month, when discussing if a 1st level ranger could use a scroll. Actually found a reference in a rules of the game article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041116a) If you don't have enough levels in the class to cast any spells yet, you can still try to use a spell trigger item, but your effective caster level for activating the spell is 0. Since there was a community vote about this, I thought it would be interesting to compare our vote to what the FAQ says about it. Q: How long does it take to activate a scroll with an identify spell on it? How about a scroll with any of the summon monster spells or a wand of summon monster? This has been a serious debate for some of us. Page 213 of the DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide, under Using Magic Items, says “Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, whether it’s a scroll, a wand, or a pair of boots, unless the item description specifically states otherwise.” Yet, the very next section (spell completion items) states: “This is the activation method for scrolls . . . Activating a spell completion item is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.” The Player’s Handbook section on scrolls also says it’s a standard action, yet the DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide spell storing weapon ability on page 225 says “This special ability is an exception to the general rule that casting a spell from an item takes at least as long as casting that spell normally.” Which set of rules is correct? A:Activating any magic item is a standard action, unless the item duplicates a spell effect that has a longer casting time or unless the item description specifies a different casting time. The sections on spell completion and spell trigger items should include the caveat that activating the item takes as long as casting the stored spell would take. Thus, it takes 1 hour to activate a scroll with an identify spell on it. A scroll or a wand with any of the summon monster spells in it takes a full round to activate, just as casting a summon monster spell does. A command word item takes a standard action to activate, no matter what the casting time of the spell it duplicates. In general, command word items don’t duplicate spells with long casting times. Use-activated items typically don’t have any activation times (because they function continually or because you activate them automatically as part of the action you take to use the item). Like command word items, use-activated items usually don’t duplicate spells with long casting times. Activating a scroll (or any other spell completion item) is “like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure (such as from armor)” (see “Activation” on page 238 of the DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide). An armored rogue who activates a scroll with Use Magic Device suffers the normal arcane spell failure chance. Q: If you aren’t of the right level to read a scroll, you have to make a caster level check to actually use the scroll, right? If this fails, you have to make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap. What happens to the scroll if you fail both checks? Does the failure erase the scroll? What happens if you fail the caster level check, but make the Wisdom check? Is the writing on the scroll still there? A: If you do not succeed in activating a scroll spell, the spell is not used up. If you suffer a mishap when you fail to cast the spell, however, you activate the scroll after a fashion and the scroll is wasted. You likewise lose the spell on the scroll if you fail any Concentration check you might have to make while using the scroll. You also lose the spell from the scroll or if you fail any arcane spell failure roll you might have to make when using the scroll. Q: I have a multiclass barbarian/rogue. I was wondering if he can sneak attack while raging? A: Yes, provided the character’s attack meets the requirements for a sneak attack—you must have the foe flanked or the foe must somehow be denied its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class against your attack. A sneak attack requires precision, but not much in the way of patience or concentration. Q: Can a character use the Tumble skill from a prone position? Specifically, if my character is prone, can he use Tumble to move out of a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity? A: According to a strict reading of the rules, no. The key phrase in the Tumble skill description is this: “Tumble at onehalf speed as part of normal movement. . . .” You can’t move “normally” while prone, thus you can’t use Tumble in this manner while prone. The only “normal” movement allowed while prone is to crawl 5 feet as a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity. I don’t think it stretches the rules unreasonably to allow a character to use Tumble while crawling, but since you can’t crawl at half speed (half of 5 feet is less than a full square), you’d have to take the –10 penalty on the Tumble check for using accelerated tumbling. Thus, a character could make a “crawling Tumble”—think of it as an “action roll” if you prefer—to move 5 feet as a move action without provoking attacks of opportunity; such an action would require a DC 15 Tumble check with a –10 penalty. The rules don't say so (probably because it's an obvious point), but you must be able to see a scroll to read it. If you're blinded, you can't activate a scroll, and you also cannot do so if darkness, fog, or some other condition keeps you from seeing the scroll. Darkvision lets you see in nonmagical darkness, and that allows you to read scrolls in nonmagical darkness. So if you are in an obscuring mist, do you have a 20% "miss chance" to see the scroll and read it because of concealment?
Vathelokai 01-08-06, 05:23 AM	Thanks. I must say, I have read a part of that Rules of the Games article, and now I know why I never use these articles in my own games (and are ridiculed over at ENWorld). That's just all kinds of weird. Spells that affect ability scores can't be shared because the master and the familiar have different ability scores! :confused: That's just utter crap. By the same logic, they cannot share spells that improve saving throws, because they have different saving throws.He tries (badly) to say that spells that effect "pools" (such as HP) can only effect one, but spells that effect "things" (such as the target creature as a whole) or "stats" (such as AC and STR) can share normally. Once again, I think poor Skip doesn't really know what he is talking about, and I think Rules of the Game simply aren't written well enough to serve as hard rules in CoCo. Skip's article creates more problems than it solves, since if I take the same reasoning, most things cannot be shared. Sharing mage armor or shield, sorry, no can do because master and familiar both have a different 'Armor Class'.I agree that Skip isn't the best writer, but I think you're missing his point. Mage armor does share because AC is a stat; Bull strengh shares. What dosn't "share" normaly is CLW - you cant cast it once, then apply the total points of healing to two different creatures. Same with temp hp: IF a spell gives you 20 temp hp, then either you or the familiar gets 20; you don't get 20 each. Skip's article makes something we rarely have questions about in our game something difficult. I don't know about you guys, but bull's strength, cure light wounds etc. etc. were always shared. And reducing one of them in effectiveness (like protection from energy) didn't count towards the other, just like one expiring duration didn't count against the other. Both spells were not in 'constant communication' about how the other's spell was doing.I always did it different in my tabletop games. I figured that magic does enough crazy stuff, why not allow 'constant communication' between spells. However, I think 'communication between spells" is mis-characterizing the rule. Acutally, by analyzing your last statement (about how the other's spell was doing), you imply that when a spell is shared, two versions of the spell are existing. Is that your belief? I'm under the impression that only one spell exists, and it is effecting two people, which causes strange effects because spells were not written with that in mind. I am sorry to say, but these rules are just so idiotic, that while I will accept them for my characters, but have to refuse to use them as a Pitlord. I think your misreading them; they don't sound entirely idiotic to me. I will accept and enforce the 'no spells cast from scrolls can be shared' rule, since that one is clear enough. It still doesn't answer the question if scroll spells can be countered and identified through spellcraft though. For people lisenting at home, the article says The master cannot share spell-like abilities or supernatural abilities, nor can the master and familiar share effects from magic items. which is just an elaboration from the SRD's "cannot share spell-like abilities."
Usurpator 01-08-06, 07:40 AM	Acutally, by analyzing your last statement (about how the other's spell was doing), you imply that when a spell is shared, two versions of the spell are existing. Is that your belief? I'm under the impression that only one spell exists, and it is effecting two people, which causes strange effects because spells were not written with that in mind. Precisely, that is by far the easiest way to think of it. The master casts the spell, makes all the appropriate decisions, rolls all the appropriate dice, and then a 'copy' or 'duplicate' appears on the familiar. That way you don't need extra rules at all, don't have to think about such things as 'pools' or what they affect, don't need to worry what happens when your familiar is just inside an anti-magic field and you're not, etc. etc. My interpretation can hardly be more clear and simple. In the article Skip 'invents' all kinds of rules to clarify an issue that never needed clarification to me, and even worse, his 'clarification' makes things murkier. I was under the impression (like you) that Bull's Strength could be shared, but Skip says it cannot: and magic that enhances or improves an ability score must all go to either the master or the familiar. So no sharing there. Additionally, while he suggests that polymorph can be shared, polymorph can also 'improve ability scores'. So when your bat familiar changes into a Remorhaz, it will become a Huge 1 Str, 15 Dex Remorhaz. The 'why' explanation he gives for being able to share a bonus to saving throws, but not share a bonus to ability scores doesn't make any kind of sense. Apart from that, and as I said before, I don't have a problem with his statement about magic item affects (like scrolls) not applying to your familiar. While I would have chosen otherwise, his clarification is fairly clear and doesn't confuse me. I can live with it. And please don't get me started on the whole Sundering a familiar issue. Crazy, crazy stuff. He complicates some things that are simple and self-explanatory. He makes up new rules instead of clarifying existing rules. I like some of his rules clarifications about Mounts, since that part of D&D needed some clarification, but once he starts to pretend his house rules are actually the rules.... not good.
Vathelokai 01-08-06, 08:24 AM	Precisely, that is by far the easiest way to think of it. The master casts the spell, makes all the appropriate decisions, rolls all the appropriate dice, and then a 'copy' or 'duplicate' appears on the familiar. That way you don't need extra rules at all, don't have to think about such things as 'pools' or what they affect, don't need to worry what happens when your familiar is just inside an anti-magic field and you're not, etc. etc. My interpretation can hardly be more clear and simple.True, it is easy and simple, but it has the effect of making some spells more powerfull. Examples: should prot. arrows allow both you and your familiar to absorb 30 damage each? Should dispel evil be able to be discharged twice just because you have a famailiar? Should truestrike allow you and the familiar to each take an attack at +20 (expecially in light of warclones last fight)? I think both solutions work, and it's a mater of taste. We could always tack it onto the long list of vague rules that Cat has been ignoring. In the article Skip 'invents' all kinds of rules to clarify an issue that never needed clarification to me, and even worse, his 'clarification' makes things murkier. I was under the impression (like you) that Bull's Strength could be shared, but Skip says it cannot. ... Additionally, while he suggests that polymorph can be shared, polymorph can also 'improve ability scores'. So when your bat familiar changes into a Remorhaz, it will become a Huge 1 Str, 15 Dex Remorhaz. The 'why' explanation he gives for being able to share a bonus to saving throws, but not share a bonus to ability scores doesn't make any kind of sense.In spite of the foregoing, some aspects of the master and familiar always remain distinct. The master and familiar have two separate pools of hit points. If the master casts a cure wounds spell, the hit points bestowed must go either to the master or to the familiar. If points are left over after the chosen recipient reaches full hit points, the excess can go to the other pool. In a similar fashion, the master and familiar both have their own ability scores, and magic that enhances or improves an ability score must all go to either the master or the familiar. Some spells have benefits that can be fully shared and other benefits that must be allocated to the familiar or to the master. For example, an aid spell grants temporary hit points and bestows a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls and saves against fear effects. If the master and the familiar share an aid spell, only one of them gets the temporary hit points, but both receive the morale bonus.Well, I missed that when I skimmed it. I agree with you that the ability scores thing is crap. I agree with Skip on how to deal with HP issues though. And please don't get me started on the whole Sundering a familiar issue. Crazy, crazy stuff. :P Am I the only one who thinks this makes sense? "Sunder" is just a mechanic for attacking held items. Most of the time they are inanimate, but nothing says it has to be that way. Actually, Skip took that from the FAQ. But then there are the ride rules for familiars; if we assume you can 'sunder' a familiar, then could you sunder Sir Valkin while Foreman 'carries' him? That would kind of be like the inverse of mounted combat; Foreman makes an opposed roll to stop you from hitting his rider? He complicates some things that are simple and self-explanatory. He makes up new rules instead of clarifying existing rules. I like some of his rules clarifications about Mounts, since that part of D&D needed some clarification, but once he starts to pretend his house rules are actually the rules.... not good.Ummm... I don't see how that's a house rule. The rules in the SRD on sharing spell is something like 2 sentences. Almost anything he says is a clarification. Your 'duplicate spell' concept is just as much a house rule, no matter how easy to adjudicate.
MitzaVolchenko 01-08-06, 04:08 PM	I have a million ideas for quests running around in my head. If anyone out there is looking for a change of pace from battles, let me know.
Maraxus 01-08-06, 06:53 PM	Rules of the game ... When I pitlord, share spells works on all spells, be it mage armor or cure light wounds, untill I see anything in the real rules that show, that some can't. And it also works with spells from items (that are somehow cast, so no use activated items). With that section about scrolls, where he sais, that you can use spell trigger items, even if you can't cast them (which is true but does not matter, since scrolls are spell completition items), he lost his "infallible"-status. And now all he writes is considered a sugestion, no rule. :)
TheMagister 01-08-06, 07:41 PM	@Dracazar and anyone else who knows: What program do I need to download into my new computer to be able to view Drac's excellent maps? Where would one get this program? Thanks! TM
Prisonlords 01-08-06, 07:43 PM	Everyone, I would like to re-open a discussion regarding the Psionic Fist/Psionic Weapon issue as it relates to unarmed strikes. Currently, the ruling stands that, for balance issues, In order to have unarmed strikes benefit from this damage boost, you must have Psionic Fist, with Psionic Weapon only applying to melee weapons. Several of you had issues with this ruling, enough so that I felt it warranted a new discussion. I will post a ruling in the Court Decisions post based upon a majority decision expressed here. If no clear majority comes out of the discussion, the current ruling will stand.
Warclone 01-08-06, 07:49 PM	I have another rules question: Can I dominate person someone in the arena and have them go to sleep without allowing them a new saving throw or any other ill effects?
Guildmaster (TLT) 01-09-06, 01:13 PM	Everyone, I would like to re-open a discussion regarding the Psionic Fist/Psionic Weapon issue as it relates to unarmed strikes. Currently, the ruling stands that, for balance issues, In order to have unarmed strikes benefit from this damage boost, you must have Psionic Fist, with Psionic Weapon only applying to melee weapons. Several of you had issues with this ruling, enough so that I felt it warranted a new discussion. I will post a ruling in the Court Decisions post based upon a majority decision expressed here. If no clear majority comes out of the discussion, the current ruling will stand. I say allow Psionic Weapon to work on unarmed strikes. I don't think people are going to rush off and create psionic monks if we allow it. As for an arguement as to why Psionic Fist is in there? Probably for all those Psionic Creatures in the back of the book.
TroubleWolf 01-09-06, 01:36 PM	I have a million ideas for quests running around in my head. If anyone out there is looking for a change of pace from battles, let me know. Sven could be persuaded to Quest. It would be cool if you could somehow work it into the RP. I'm not really sure how questing works, exactly, but PM me and we can discuss it.
Kaigan 01-09-06, 01:40 PM	I say allow Psionic Weapon to work on unarmed strikes. I don't think people are going to rush off and create psionic monks if we allow it. As for an arguement as to why Psionic Fist is in there? Probably for all those Psionic Creatures in the back of the book. I would have to diagree. Psionic fist specifically states its use for unarmed strikes, and for natural attacks. Where Psionic Weapon is for melee weapons. Basically what you are saying is this. Say any character, not just monks have the psionic weapon feat. They use a sword for example, and are disarmed. Then they can use the same feat to apply +2d6 to their nonlethal unarmed strikes? I think there is a reason for a distinction between Psionic weapon and fist and that a monks unarmed attack should not apply for Psionic weapon.
Maraxus 01-09-06, 02:32 PM	Hey, if "a monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons", can it be enhanced by both, dissolving touch and dissolving weapon, at the same time? :D (No, I don't think so)
Ariel23 01-09-06, 03:00 PM	@Prisonlords Psionic Fist and Weapon both clearly work on Monk's Unarmed Strike according to the RAW, like it or not (I don't particularly). This is not an issue of interpretation, this is a houserule designed to re-write the RAW over a perceived issue that doesn't harm anyone, even if some (including myself) find the RAW annoying when it comes to Monks. I want to make clear that if you have both feats, you cannot use both feats at the same time*. I.e., you only have one Psionic Focus, you can't gain +4d6 on an Unarmed Strike with Psionic Fist and Psionic Weapon. * Actually you can if you also have a Psicrystal that can hold a Psionic Focus for you, but that goes for every Psionic-Focus feat. I would have to diagree. Psionic fist specifically states its use for unarmed strikes, and for natural attacks. Say any character, not just monks have the psionic weapon feat. They use a sword for example, and are disarmed. Then they can use the same feat to apply +2d6 to their nonlethal unarmed strikes?No. This is not even an issue, nor a matter of interpretation. The Monk's class description is 100% clear about that. Even a Fighter with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat does not treat her fists as weapons. A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. This, like many other issues, is a problem with Monks, not with the RAW. I often wish Monks were a PrC since they operate so completely differently from any other class. **************************************** ************************ Examples: should prot. arrows allow both you and your familiar to absorb 30 damage each? [Or Vigor at +30 HP, etc?] Answer: Yes, the spell is in effect on both of you at once, but once 30 total points have been absorbed, the spell ends. Whether that is 25 caster/5 familiar, 15 caster/15 familiar, 0 caster/30 familiar... What happens when someone without a familiar casts two Vigors or two Prot from Arrows on themselves? Would they have 60 HP? No, they would have two spells of 30 each, and every attack of 5 would subtract 5 from both spells. Should truestrike allow you and the familiar to each take an attack at +20 (expecially in light of warclones last fight)? Answer: Either of you have access to it for 1 round, but only one of you may use it: once used, it is gone. Should dispel evil be able to be discharged twice just because you have a famailiar? Technical Answer: This is a poor example, because it is a touch spell, so even by the RAW you would have to designate one or the other of you as the toucher. Assuming this was some other kind of (non-touch) spell either you or your familiar may discharge the spell, but once discharged it is gone for both of you. Ariel's Question: If Dispel Magic is cast on you or your familiar, does that negate the spell for both? Does the Dispeller get two rolls to get rid of one spell?
Usurpator 01-09-06, 03:06 PM	Psionic Fist vs. Psionic Weapon: I don't think it is really a big issue either way, I don't think either choice would disrupt game balance. Logic would dictate that they made Psionic Fist for a reason. I think it is stupid that the character for who the Psionic Fist was truly meant (a psychic monk/PSIONIC FIST) would probably never take it, because Psionic Weapon would be more useful/versatile to him. On the other hand, I'd rather they scrap Psionic Fist completely, and just let Psionic Weapon work with both manufactured and natural weapons, just like Weapon Focus and similar feats. So I'll guess I vote for yes: 'Psionic Weapon' can be used in conjunction with a Monk's unarmed strike. Guess that still wouldn't allow Tezca to use Psionic Fist in conjunction with his claw or bite attacks, but heh, can't have everything.
Kaigan 01-09-06, 03:07 PM	A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. By this logic however, then the monster feat: IMPROVED NATURAL ATTACK [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4. Benefit: Choose one of the creature’s natural attack forms. The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature’s size had increased by one category: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6. A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8. Special: A creature can gain this feat multiple times. Each time it applies to a different natural attack. This can also be applicable to Monks according to this logic, but this is not allowed.
Usurpator 01-09-06, 03:20 PM	Ariel's Question: If Dispel Magic is cast on you or your familiar, does that negate the spell for both? Does the Dispeller get two rolls to get rid of one spell? They dispeller would get two rolls if I am your Pitlord, because I consider the shared spell two separate spells after casting. The other way just doesn't make sense to me. Why would some things be shared and others not? If the power of the spell is 'split' or 'divided' in some way, why would it not count for duration? Why would the point cured by a CLW be divided among two targets, but a lesser restoration restore full ability damage on both targets? House rules from Skip (since there is no rule sources in the core books that has support for his ruling, at least not more support than for my interpretation) and that are inherently illogical, will just get ignored by me. There will always be some problem with shared spells (Contact other Plane is a good example), but they certainly won't be solved by Skip's rules. Just like most people ignore the fact that you cannot share Bull's Strength with your familiar according to Skip. Or that scrolls are spell trigger items. Or that you can Sunder a rider on his horse if he has a cloaked draped over him. ;)
Usurpator 01-09-06, 03:25 PM	By this logic however, then the monster feat: This can also be applicable to Monks according to this logic, but this is not allowed. Guess I have to quash another illusion. :weep: Can a monk take Improved Natural Attack (Monster Manual, page 304) to improve his unarmed strike? Yes. As stated on page 41 of the Player’s Handbook, a monk’s unarmed strike “is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either” which includes feats such as Improved Natural Attack.
NiQil 01-09-06, 03:25 PM	By this logic however, then the monster feat: This can also be applicable to Monks according to this logic, but this is not allowed. Actually, per the FAQ, monks can take Improved Natural Attack.
Mal-2 01-09-06, 03:25 PM	By this logic however, then the monster feat (Improved Natuarl Attack) This can also be applicable to Monks according to this logic, but this is not allowed. Er, why can't CoCo monks take this feat? The D&D FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) is quite clear that it's allowed: "Can a monk take Improved Natural Attack (Monster Manual, page 304) to improve his unarmed strike? Yes." I don't see anything in our Rules thread that disallows it.
Usurpator 01-09-06, 03:27 PM	@NiQil and Mal-2: Too slow guys, too slow... :P
NiQil 01-09-06, 03:31 PM	@NiQil and Mal-2: Too slow guys, too slow... :P Meh...I could have responded to that a minute ago....but I was too busy making sure the Prison was up to date :D
Mal-2 01-09-06, 03:33 PM	@NiQil and Mal-2: Too slow guys, too slow... :P Heh. I need to remember to make sure no one else has posted while I'm off checking for a rules citation.
Skojar 01-09-06, 04:42 PM	Everyone, I would like to re-open a discussion regarding the Psionic Fist/Psionic Weapon issue as it relates to unarmed strikes. Currently, the ruling stands that, for balance issues, In order to have unarmed strikes benefit from this damage boost, you must have Psionic Fist, with Psionic Weapon only applying to melee weapons. Several of you had issues with this ruling, enough so that I felt it warranted a new discussion. I will post a ruling in the Court Decisions post based upon a majority decision expressed here. If no clear majority comes out of the discussion, the current ruling will stand. My position is this: according to RAW, it is quite clear that monk's unarmed strikes can benefit from both feats. House rules that go against RAW present a big problem for those designing characters. If I were designing a monk/psychic warrior, it wouldn't even occurr to me to check for rulings or houserules when the RAW is not ambiguous. This is the only ruling like it in the list. All other limitations on class features (as far as I can tell)are prominently specified in the Rules of Gladius. Have a look at those rules and you will note that any mention of this houserule would seem out of place. To clarify the issue, consider these three cases: 1. A monk/psychic warrior that takes Psionic Weapon. He might use his feat for strikes with either his fists or a melee weapon. 2. A monk/psychic warrior that takes Psionic Fist. He might use his feat for strikes with either his fists manifested natural attacks. 3. A monk/psychic warrior that takes both feats, and can therefore use one feat or the other for basically any melee attack. The only overlap is the monk's unarmed strikes. Noone without this class feature can use Psionic Weapon for his unarmed strikes. Furthermore, in order to acheive this combination, a character would have to multiclass, limiting either his monk levels or his levels in the psionic class. I think that making such house rules that aren't directly related to the mechanics of arena combat is against the spirit of the COre COliseum. I may have misunderstood what that spirit was, but just about everything makes sense to me except for this one glaring, oddball ruling. It is different in its essential nature from any of the other rules that I have been able to find, and so I think it should be eliminated to maintain consistancy.
Ariel23 01-09-06, 06:31 PM	http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a327/Vathelokai/CoCo%20Maps/cavern2.jpg http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a327/Vathelokai/CoCo%20Maps/cavern.jpg For anyone who's interested, here's the enlarge ratio to get one square = 5' From Vathelokai's source, above cavern2.jpg (480% - jpg) All vs. All Map (Grand Hall w/Lava) cavern.jpg (480% - jpg) Creature Cavern Map From Gladius Maps: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5179891 ArenaMap-LG2.jpg (1535% but probably too big to be practical) Standard 1 vs. 1 CavernMap.gif (370%) Hunter Map Make sure you use the same source and file format (jpg/gif), otherwise I can't promise this will work.
Maraxus 01-09-06, 07:26 PM	Hey, if a spell that grands you additional hit points is shared with your familiar, by being distributed among you two, this gives wizards and sorceres a new edge: When a spell (like fireball) hits you, it also affects your familiar, but since the change in hitpoints still only hits once, you can choose to aply it to your familiar only.
Snommelp 01-09-06, 07:33 PM	I'd like to try an experiment next week, but I need a willing opponent and a willing pitlord with at least one reliable DnD friend. Just for kicks, I would like to see a fight sans tactics. The pitlord and his friend will run the characters using just the character sheets and past fights. I would offer to run the experiment myself, but my DnD buddies aren't reliable, which is key to this test. How might this experiment effect the CoCo? I don't know; I just think it would be fun.
Ariel23 01-09-06, 08:01 PM	Can you use Deflect Arrows to deflect a thrown Mind Blade? Unusually massive ranged weapons and ranged attacks generated by spell effects can’t be deflected. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#deflectArrows The two primary issues are psionics/magic transparency, and then whether a supernatural ability is considered a "spell effect." Supernatural abilities are considered magic or psionic (and go away in anti-magic/psionic fields), but does that make them "spell effects?" Supernatural is basically a nice way to make a spell-like ability without the AoO. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/naturalSpecialAbilities.htm#supernatural Abilities There are also Psi-like abilities that raise the same issue such as a Dromite's Energy Ray, Pyrokineticist Bolt of Fire, and various monster abilities. I'm sure there are a lot of non-core examples, such as Eldritch Blast (Spell-like).
Rousseau 01-10-06, 01:24 AM	Hello! I've wandered over here from the Real Adventures forum, and the Arena here sounds like it could be fun. I'm not sure if I'll get a character up this week, but by next week I should join the throng of combatants. I'm still figuring my way around some of these rules (mostly the advanced stuff--the basic arena fights seem simple enough).
Iced 01-10-06, 01:41 AM	My position is this: according to RAW, it is quite clear that monk's unarmed strikes can benefit from both feats. House rules that go against RAW present a big problem for those designing characters. If I were designing a monk/psychic warrior, it wouldn't even occurr to me to check for rulings or houserules when the RAW is not ambiguous. This is the only ruling like it in the list. All other limitations on class features (as far as I can tell)are prominently specified in the Rules of Gladius. Have a look at those rules and you will note that any mention of this houserule would seem out of place. To clarify the issue, consider these three cases: 1. A monk/psychic warrior that takes Psionic Weapon. He might use his feat for strikes with either his fists or a melee weapon. 2. A monk/psychic warrior that takes Psionic Fist. He might use his feat for strikes with either his fists manifested natural attacks. 3. A monk/psychic warrior that takes both feats, and can therefore use one feat or the other for basically any melee attack. The only overlap is the monk's unarmed strikes. Noone without this class feature can use Psionic Weapon for his unarmed strikes. Furthermore, in order to acheive this combination, a character would have to multiclass, limiting either his monk levels or his levels in the psionic class. I think that making such house rules that aren't directly related to the mechanics of arena combat is against the spirit of the COre COliseum. I may have misunderstood what that spirit was, but just about everything makes sense to me except for this one glaring, oddball ruling. It is different in its essential nature from any of the other rules that I have been able to find, and so I think it should be eliminated to maintain consistancy. I see no reason why not. ~Iced
Vathelokai 01-10-06, 02:09 AM	Answer: Yes, the spell is in effect on both of you at once, but once 30 total points have been absorbed, the spell ends. Whether that is 25 caster/5 familiar, 15 caster/15 familiar, 0 caster/30 familiar... What happens when someone without a familiar casts two Vigors or two Prot from Arrows on themselves? Would they have 60 HP? No, they would have two spells of 30 each, and every attack of 5 would subtract 5 from both spells. I believe you just backed up my point. Ariel's Question: If Dispel Magic is cast on you or your familiar, does that negate the spell for both? Does the Dispeller get two rolls to get rid of one spell? I would say one roll, because you're sharing one spell. I would like to re-open a discussion regarding the Psionic Fist/Psionic Weapon issue as it relates to unarmed strikes. I vote to allow monks (and only monks) to use psionic fist and psionic weapon interchangably on their unarmed strikes, as per the monk class feature. I have another rules question: Can I dominate person someone in the arena and have them go to sleep without allowing them a new saving throw or any other ill effects?Subjects resist this control, and any subject forced to take actions against its nature receives a new saving throw with a +2 bonus. Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out. From that part of the spell description, I would guess that if you commanded any action at all in a one on one fight they would get a second saving throw (unless you commanded them to buff or something). Hey, if a spell that grands you additional hit points is shared with your familiar, by being distributed among you two, this gives wizards and sorceres a new edge: When a spell (like fireball) hits you, it also affects your familiar, but since the change in hitpoints still only hits once, you can choose to aply it to your familiar only. The problem with that is you can only share spells that target a creature and that you cast yourself. TAO post 13 has a full list of spells you can attack yourself with and share the effects of; examples - blindness, contagion, hideous laughter, flesh to stone.
Vathelokai 01-10-06, 02:18 AM	Hello! I've wandered over here from the Real Adventures forum, and the Arena here sounds like it could be fun. I'm not sure if I'll get a character up this week, but by next week I should join the throng of combatants. I'm still figuring my way around some of these rules (mostly the advanced stuff--the basic arena fights seem simple enough). Hello and welcome to the all singing, all dancing, all rules lawyering, arena of doom. :)
Maraxus 01-10-06, 07:31 AM	Okay, right, there is hardly a reason, why you should cast damageing spells at yourself. Never mind. But about dominate person: The term "against his nature" seams to be very confusing. Everybody seams to understand something very diffrent from it. I definitly disagree with Vathelokai, going to sleep is not against somebody's nature and therefor her get's no secong save. The "nature" of a person or creature is something so basicly that he would never (or almost never) act against it. ... Okay, in case of a Construct, Elemental, Ooze, Outsider(except native), Plant or Undead, comanding to sleep would be against it's nature, since these creatures really never sleep, but any humaoid sleeps, so he get's no saving throw. Or in other words: The comand itself should not force the creature to act against it's nature (like "don't move while I kill you"), but it may have indirect consequences that prove fatal, nevertheless. However, the character did not act that consequences, he acted going asleep.
Usurpator 01-10-06, 08:04 AM	dominate/charm person: By my estimation, it shouldn't work in the arena, at least, not in one-vs-one battles. When two best friends are paired in the arena, they fight too, don't they. Fighting in the arena has nothing to do with friendship and charm person would not stop a gladiator from fighting the charmer. 'Against one's nature' is situation dependent. While going to sleep isn't against one's nature per se, it is when you're asking them to do so in a place/time/situation where they would normally not sleep, such as an Arena.
Cerebus13 01-10-06, 08:33 AM	dominate/charm person: By my estimation, it shouldn't work in the arena, at least, not in one-vs-one battles. When two best friends are paired in the arena, they fight too, don't they. Fighting in the arena has nothing to do with friendship and charm person would not stop a gladiator from fighting the charmer. 'Against one's nature' is situation dependent. While going to sleep isn't against one's nature per se, it is when you're asking them to do so in a place/time/situation where they would normally not sleep, such as an Arena."You can control the actions of any humanoid creature through a telepathic link that you establish with the subject’s mind." I don't see how a spell with that particular phrase within it should not be allowed in the arena. If the talk about One's Nature is an issue with people simply hammer out some hard guidelines as to what is and is not against a person's nature.
Usurpator 01-10-06, 08:58 AM	"You can control the actions of any humanoid creature through a telepathic link that you establish with the subject’s mind." I don't see how a spell with that particular phrase within it should not be allowed in the arena. If the talk about One's Nature is an issue with people simply hammer out some hard guidelines as to what is and is not against a person's nature. Obviously, the first part referred to charm person, which is a different spell than dominate person. And I didn't saying anything about not being allowed, just meant that charm person is useless in a one-on-one duel. Just like being best friends is pretty useless for your chances of victory if you square of against each other in a tennis match. The second part refers to dominate. I don't think you can hammer out hard guidelines what is and what isn't against a person's nature, let alone 'simply'. The spell requires some Pitlord's adjuction. But rest assured that any action that would create a danger of a loss for the dominated gladiator would neccesitate a saving throw. If you don't agree, then just assume the dominator forces the other person to surrender. Simple, clean, and no difficult questions involved (works with charm person too, if you don't accept my point of view).
Altaris13 01-10-06, 09:07 AM	Hello! I've wandered over here from the Real Adventures forum, and the Arena here sounds like it could be fun. I'm not sure if I'll get a character up this week, but by next week I should join the throng of combatants. I'm still figuring my way around some of these rules (mostly the advanced stuff--the basic arena fights seem simple enough). Welcome, welcome! Don't hesitate to drop a PM if you have any questions. I encourage you to join a guild, no drawbacks, lots of fun. :D The EHTC is in major recruitment at the moment. :schemes:
Myrridin 01-10-06, 09:44 AM	I would like to Questlord another Quest here, and am willing to start one this week, if anyone is interested.
Macbrea 01-10-06, 10:04 AM	Well, have finally leveled up Gorak (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7617493). Ponders if anyone will say anything about his allies he crafted!
Dracazar 01-10-06, 10:08 AM	@Dracazar and anyone else who knows: What program do I need to download into my new computer to be able to view Drac's excellent maps? Where would one get this program? You should view the Maps without special programs, your internet browser should be able to show you the maps. If you with an help to generate the tag for the map you can go to http://www.hwx.it/coco I would like to help you more, but please tell me what your problem showing maps.
Mal-2 01-10-06, 10:49 AM	Well, have finally leveled up Gorak (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7617493). Ponders if anyone will say anything about his allies he crafted! Well, I don't see anything wrong with bear traps being used in the arena, story-wise. I'm a bit concerned that the SRD section on Traps (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm) doesn't give us a lot to work with for portable traps. For instance, a mechanical trap "usually takes only a minute or so" to reset. We can't let traps be set up in advance (pre-buffs aren't allowed to affect the arena), so how long should it take to set, conceal, and arm your bear trap? 10 rounds? How do we apply Search DCs if your opponent sees you plant the trap? Is he just allowed to know where it is and manuever around it as best he can without a Search check?
Altaris13 01-10-06, 10:57 AM	What happened to the "pitlord profile" thread? That's an awesome idea, and I'd definitely vote for it if it came down to a vote. Was there any Elder support of this?
Macbrea 01-10-06, 10:58 AM	Well, since a bear trap would be a location trap. I couldn't set it prior to entering the arena anyways. As it would go off as soon as I entered the arena and try and attack me unless I can make a disable device check to avoid the trap without setting it off every round. By the rules, I would need to emplace the trap. In this case digging a small hole, putting it in the hole and covering it up. 10 rounds to do such an action as per the rules to resettnig traps. I could have made that autoresetting by increasing the cost by +500gp. In which case it would slam shut and open back up immediately resetting. This probably is more useful in the arena for a blocking device. I would assume anyone watching someone emplace a trap would not have to search for the trap. They would know it was in the square. It still would require a disable device check to enter the square with the trap. So, given that bit of information I should increase the gold cost and have it autoresetting. Since, they are CR 1, they would count as allies for purposes of experience and gold aquired from the arena.
Mal-2 01-10-06, 11:07 AM	By the rules, I would need to emplace the trap. In this case digging a small hole, putting it in the hole and covering it up. !0 rounds to do such an action as per the rules to resettnig traps. Except the rules don't talk about emplacing traps. They talk about how to reset traps which are already in place. As far as the SRD goes, I don't see anything that considers portable traps at all. Anyway, I don't object to your bear traps, I just wish we had some more definite rules to govern them.
Myrridin 01-10-06, 11:17 AM	Hmm, so, can pseudodragons actually activate magical items that take vocalization? It says they can communicate telepathically, and vocalize animal noises...so I'm inclined to say no. That puts a dent in any UMD character for them.
SoulLord 01-10-06, 11:21 AM	just meant that charm person is useless in a one-on-one duel. Just like being best friends is pretty useless for your chances of victory if you square of against each other in a tennis match. If you don't agree, then just assume the dominator forces the other person to surrender. Simple, clean, and no difficult questions involved (works with charm person too, if you don't accept my point of view). Charm person Affects the target by changing his disposition from Hostile (it want's to hurt you to win the match) to Friendly it will not attack on sight and will listen to you. You could ask your new best friend to surrender because you need the money so bad to help your dying aunt. but you would still need to suceed on an opposed charisma check as per the spell description.
Macbrea 01-10-06, 11:56 AM	If a Weapon doesn't give a description in the book. Are we allowed to state it is a metal halfted onehanded weapon instead of a wood hafted weapon? Example: Warhammer Woodened hafted Hardness 5 Hps 5 Metal halfted Hardness 10 hps 20 http://home.earthlink.net/~macbrea/COCOMaps/warhammer.jpg Is an example of a metal halfted warhammer.
Usurpator 01-10-06, 12:06 PM	Charm person Affects the target by changing his disposition from Hostile (it want's to hurt you to win the match) to Friendly it will not attack on sight and will listen to you. The arena matches are a contrived situation. I can assure you few of my characters will be hostile to their opponents, and if they can win the match without hurting their opponents, so much the better. They certainly don't wish the other gladiators harm. You could ask your new best friend to surrender because you need the money so bad to help your dying aunt. but you would still need to suceed on an opposed charisma check as per the spell description. Sure, but they could give you the money instead, or offer a charge from their wand of CLW to help your aunt. Charm is not mind control, and therefore should be role-played out, which isn't practical in the arena. Similarly, you should be able to use the Diplomacy skill to achieve the same effect. Of Bluff skill to convince them to surrender. I really liked the use of charm to convince another gladiator in a FFA to help you. In a one-on-one it would be of little use, same with Diplomacy of Bluff. IMO of course. Note that charm does *not* change the subject's perception of the situation. It still knows that is in an Arena and slated to fight until one is defeated or surrenders. As I said before, if you do allow charm, asking for a surrender would probably be the best (and default) thing to do.
SoulLord 01-10-06, 12:27 PM	Note that charm does *not* change the subject's perception of the situation. It still knows that is in an Arena and slated to fight until one is defeated or surrenders. As I said before, if you do allow charm, asking for a surrender would probably be the best (and default) thing to do. I agree that you could ask your opponent to surrender but You would still need to win an opposed charisma check to suceed*. Since it's not something the gladiators will usually do. * as stated in the charm spell
Usurpator 01-10-06, 12:30 PM	I agree that you could ask your opponent to surrender but You would still need to win an opposed charisma check to suceed*. Since it's not something the gladiators will usually do. * as stated in the charm spell Sure. We were not disagreeing about that, or were we?
Usurpator 01-10-06, 06:45 PM	Just wanted to chime in here. It is a fact, though not one I can support at the moment, that the CL of items listed in the DMG/SRD is not one of the requirements necessary to create that item. That is, in truth, the standard CL of the item itself, whether made by a character level 3 or level 20. Does it make sense? No, not really. But, it is factual and true. The 'CL X' tag line of a magic item /preceeds/ the requirements as noted, and as such, is not included in what ever those requirements are. If you dig enough, you will find certain items that will list a CL X, then list a CL X a second time among the list of requirements to create the item. Moved to Tavern to prevent discussion from cluttering up Prison thread. While I agree that may have been the intention of the original designers (thus Monte Cook's claim (http://www.montecook.com/arch_dmonly3.html) that CL was not a requirement), it seems to have been lost in the shuffle. In any case, Skip Williams claims in one of his infamous 'Rules of the Game' articles that caster level *is* a requirement. Even the CoCo house rules seems to assume it is a requirement, otherwise they wouldn't have made the exception in the first place. EDIT: Added a link (http://www.montecook.com/arch_dmonly3.html) to Monte Cook's essay about this issue.
Macbrea 01-10-06, 09:38 PM	We were not arguing that CL is or isn't a requirement for creating Ioun stones. What we were arguing was the fact you must be 12 to make one period. Ioun Stones Moderate varied; CL 12th; Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be 12th level. If we ignore the CL 12 as optional. We still need the other two requirements. Craft wonderous Item (cl 3 feat) and creator must be 12th level. This isn't a change from the house rule that CoCo uses it is to say Ioun stones have other requirements besided the ignored CL of the item.
Macbrea 01-10-06, 09:43 PM	That item isn't much different in requirements to say this item. Oathbow Strong evocation; CL 15th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, creator must be an elf; Price 25,600 gp; Cost 13,100 gp + 1,000 XP. You will notice CL 15 can be ignored but being an elf cannot.
Rousseau 01-11-06, 12:25 AM	I just wanted to check if the Additional Domains (http://d20srd.org/srd/divine/domains.htm) from the SRD (those from the "Divine" section) were allowed--I'm new to this forum, so I'm not exactly sure. Also, cleric-related, are most clerics choosing whichever two domains they want, regardless of patron deity? Thanks for any answers!
SauroGrenom 01-11-06, 12:32 AM	I just wanted to check if the Additional Domains (http://d20srd.org/srd/divine/domains.htm) from the SRD (those from the "Divine" section) were allowed--I'm new to this forum, so I'm not exactly sure. Also, cleric-related, are most clerics choosing whichever two domains they want, regardless of patron deity? Thanks for any answers! Yes they are allowed.
SauroGrenom 01-11-06, 01:27 AM	Hi all, I'm considering building a new character to replace Rebreg. I want this new character to be the greatest grapple build possable at all levels. So the question is how to pull this off. There are two major aspects of the build that I need to decide upon. First is the race then the class. As far as race goes, there are a number of options. I'm considering Duergar and Half-Giant as the two major options, but Ogre is on the list as well. The half giant has the obvious benefit of powerfull build and +2strength. That will allow a +5 on grapple checks right off the bat. The Duergar has a nice benefit of Expansion and the Invisibility powers. Expansion will give a simular effect to what you get with the powerfull build, except that you get reach as well (and a -1AC due to size) at the cost of a round of combat to activate the ability. The invisibilty is great because it denies an opponent dex and dodge bonus to AC. These are two AC modifiers that are a major factor in any opponents Touch AC that must be defeated to innitiate a grapple check. Also you are protected from being targeted before you initiate the first attack. Ogre has a hefty cost with a LA+2 and 4 racial HD. The nice thing about Ogre's is that they are large with reach and have a crazy +10 strength, +4 con and +5 natural Armor. These guys start out at ECL6 but with a grapple check of +16 without any feats or abilities to increase that. With improved grapple feat and gauntlets of titans grip you end with a grapple check of +28 at ECL6. As a general rule, monks make great grapplers at low to mid levels. They have great unarmed damage to use in a grapple, they also have speed bonus that can be used to improve there ability to start a grapple. They have the deflect arrows ability to help protect them from ranged attacks while closing in for a grapple. Once grappling they can flurry and that ability only increases with levels to become an extra attack/full attack. They are an all around solid choice for a grappler. However as ECL increases, the Fighter/Barbarian can out do a monk's grapple check because the BAB grows at +1/level instead of +.75/level. Barbarians also have the rage ability. That increases grapple damage and grapple checks while in effect. Also fighter/barbarians can wear armor to help protect them against the allies of the opponent in the grapple. I've seen several different monk characters get torn up by mounts or other allies while in a grapple and denied there dex/dodge bonus to AC so having an armor bonus may be nice. Fighters also have tons of feats and can specialize in grapple or spiked gauntlet. For these reasons, high level fighters can end up being better grapplers than monks and more versatile as well. Lastly there are the Psy-Warriors. These guys have access to a decent list of powers through powerstones, and this ability adds alot of diversity to the character. Dissolving Touch, Expansion and Grip of Iron come to mind as well as all the "Claws" powers. It should be possable to build a decent grappler out of those powers, but it may take several turns to get them all activated. Also you should be able to use a powerstone of ___ to counter any number of tactics that your opponents may employ. Many options are out there. As this point I'm sort of plotting the growth of each build to see where it will end up at. Let me know what your thoughts are.
Iced 01-11-06, 01:41 AM	Monk for a few levels then switching to barb/psychic warrior wouldn't be that bad of a grappler. You get the monk feats that help with the grappling then you get barbarian rage and a point into BAB. Psychic warrior gives you access to psionic powers and the .75 BAB progression. Once you hit high enough level you can take levels in the war mind prestige class for the extra perks and full BAB progression. Take the nessesary skills to buy the legendary grappler feat in epic levels and you're good to go. As to races your choices pretty much outline them, they're balanced it's really up to personal preference. ~Iced
Iced 01-11-06, 01:54 AM	How is the archmage prestige class' spell like ability feature run in the CoCo? Does the ability count towards total spell levels usable, or is it seperate. Example: A wizard takes a level of archmage and decides to take the spell like ability for his level. He selects meteor swarm as the spell he wants to be able to use as a spell-like ability twice per day. Does he gain four spell levels (-5 for taking ability, +9 for having an extra 9th level spell) or does he lose 14 levels (-5 for taking ability, -9 for losing a ninth level spell slot)
King Uther 01-11-06, 01:54 AM	For a long time it was Virgo's specialty. Race: Half-Giant Classes: Monk1/Psywar1+ At 3rd level: +0BAB+6STR(with expansion; can be +8 with Animal Affinity)+4feat; +8 size(Expansion)+4(Grip of Iron power)=22 grapple at 3rd for either 1d8+6 or 1d10+6 armor spikes. Combined with Dissolving Touch, Psionic Fist and Deepcrystal Armor spikes, the first attack could deal 1d10+6+2d6+2d6+4d6acid. Ka-Boom.
King Uther 01-11-06, 01:55 AM	It would be separate as my understanding goes.
Vathelokai 01-11-06, 05:25 AM	While I agree that may have been the intention of the original designers (thus Monte Cook's claim that CL was not a requirement), it seems to have been lost in the shuffle. In any case, Skip Williams claims in one of his infamous 'Rules of the Game' articles that caster level *is* a requirement. Even the CoCo house rules seems to assume it is a requirement, otherwise they wouldn't have made the exception in the first place.Funny, the FAQ says that the listed CL is not a requirement.
Vathelokai 01-11-06, 07:32 AM	@ TAO and numerous Questor/Questlords: Won't have time to update TAO or post to quests until tommorrow. All characters are updated and ready though. Sorry for any inconvienience. @Everybody: Happy birthday to me; Happy birthday to me; I turn 26 today; Happy birthday to me. :P
Pitlords 01-11-06, 09:28 AM	Happy Birthday Vath! I wish you all the best for your fights this year (except vs my characters :D). Birthday Present: 2 Credits. @all: If your character goes on a MINIQUEST make sure you write it into the headline along with the Questlord if you have chosen one. Else I assign one randomly.
Dracazar 01-11-06, 09:42 AM	Happy birthday Vathelokai! :pint:
Zevox 01-11-06, 10:33 AM	To echo the others: happy birthday Vath! :king: Zevox
SoulLord 01-11-06, 10:45 AM	@ TAO and numerous Questor/Questlords: Won't have time to update TAO or post to quests until tommorrow. All characters are updated and ready though. Sorry for any inconvienience. @Everybody: Happy birthday to me; Happy birthday to me; I turn 26 today; Happy birthday to me. :P Happy Birthday Vath. may you take over the world sucessfuly
DTFarstar 01-11-06, 11:10 AM	Happy Birthday, Vath!
Maraxus 01-11-06, 11:13 AM	Did you know, that the standard arena has exactly 3,148 squares on the ground (3,176 and 28 stones), total, this makes 31,732 cubes of (5ft)³. ...I just calculated this, because ... it would take only 825,032 rounds (almost 2 month) to fill it with a Decanter of Endless Water in "Geyser"-speed. No serious tactic for a merfolk. :)
Macbrea 01-11-06, 11:18 AM	Well, you can divide that by 5 to be at the point that the water is 10ft deep. A depth that might be useful to them. At 165,000 rounds.
Warclone 01-11-06, 11:42 AM	Well if you start with 10 decanturs of endless water on geyeser (which you can prebuff to the 'on' position) and you were satisfied with 10 ft depth, you could fill the arena in just over a day.
Macbrea 01-11-06, 01:34 PM	Here is an interesting problem, I have run into with Marcus. Marcus [ECL 5] is on three week quest to become member of EHTC. At the end of that quest assuming everything he faces ends up giving him about the same experience he will be at 16,485 Experience. He wishes to become an assassin and his original concept for the quest was to do a quest to kill someone to join the Assassin's prestige class. I was informed I cannot dual purpose a quest to kill someone and join one of the Guilds. As a result I will reach the experience to level but be unable to level. Then immediately turn back around and do another three week quest. The question I have is at what point does a person stop gaining experience if they choose not to level? Is it 1 point short of ECL 7? And in CoCo if you cannot gain the experience do you still gain the gold?
Altaris13 01-11-06, 02:00 PM	In 3.5ed, I know of no rules that prevent a character from earning experience. One /always/ has the choice to not advance. They still gain the XP, and can choose to level at any time from then on. And by the way, I think that decision is silly. Personally Macbrea, I'd use the 3 week quest to qualify for Assassin and then Miniquest next week to join EHTC.
MitzaVolchenko 01-11-06, 02:01 PM	I ran into an issue last week with Kracknol (SauroGrenom)'s flail of powerstoring. He had stored energy cone which is a cone area effect power. Powerstoring requires that the power be targeted. I would read that to mean direct targeted, not area of effect. How does everyone else read that one?
Altaris13 01-11-06, 02:04 PM	I ran into an issue last week with Kracknol (SauroGrenom)'s flail of powerstoring. He had stored energy cone which is a cone area effect power. Powerstoring requires that the power be targeted. I would read that to mean direct targeted, not area of effect. How does everyone else read that one? I think your decision was logical and well founded. A targeted spell must have a target. I don't see where the misunderstanding comes from.
Macbrea 01-11-06, 02:35 PM	In 3.5ed, I know of no rules that prevent a character from earning experience. One /always/ has the choice to not advance. They still gain the XP, and can choose to level at any time from then on. And by the way, I think that decision is silly. Personally Macbrea, I'd use the 3 week quest to qualify for Assassin and then Miniquest next week to join EHTC. Well, try as I may. My quest was stated it had to be for joining EHTC. So, I get no choice but to immediately turn back around and do it for assassin the following weeks. On another note, Has anyone actually done the math what is required to get a guild working the way it is suppose to? Am I missing something on the guilds? Standard Room cost 2000 gp houses five 3 to 5 level characters Assuming 10%, they will make the guild 700 gps each before they all reach 6th. A total of 1400gp for two. A Fancy room costs 4000 gp and houses two 6th to 11th level characters. Assuming 10%, they will make 5100 gps each for the guild. A Bedroom suite costs 7500 gps. I could be wrong but this makes it appear that you would have to do the following. GUILD FORMS HERE: 1) Start 5 third level character play them to level 6. +3500 gp 2) All them are retired. 3) Build 1 Standard room - 2000 gps 4) Start 10 third level characters play them to level 6. +7000 gps 5) Retire 6 of them 6) build 1 standard room -2000gp 7) Upgrade 2 standard rooms to fancy -4000 gps 8) Start 5 third level character and play them to 6th. +3500 gp 9) Play the 4 sixth level characters to 12th. +2800 gps 10) Upgrade 1 bedroom suite from one of the Fancy rooms to a bedroom suite. -3500 gp 11) Build 1 Standard room -2000 gp 12) Upgrade 1 standard room to fancy -2000gp 13) Retire Three 12th level characters 14) Retire One 6th level character Final totals: 3300gp 1 standard room 2 Fancy rooms 1 Bedroom suite 0 3-5th level characters 4 6th level characters 1 12th + character Retired or only earning the guild 1% Twelve 6th level Three 12th level
Sunwolf 01-11-06, 03:06 PM	Everyone, I would like to re-open a discussion regarding the Psionic Fist/Psionic Weapon issue as it relates to unarmed strikes. Currently, the ruling stands that, for balance issues, In order to have unarmed strikes benefit from this damage boost, you must have Psionic Fist, with Psionic Weapon only applying to melee weapons. Several of you had issues with this ruling, enough so that I felt it warranted a new discussion. I will post a ruling in the Court Decisions post based upon a majority decision expressed here. If no clear majority comes out of the discussion, the current ruling will stand. Personally, I would vote for the allowing Psionic Weapon to work for a monk's unarmed strikes. (I am biased since I took the feat exactly for that purpose for Brilf). On a side note, a lot of the psionic powers for claw/weapon read such that a monk would *have* to take the weapon version because the claw/natural weapon version reads that they only work on *claws*.
Usurpator 01-11-06, 03:19 PM	On another note, Has anyone actually done the math what is required to get a guild working the way it is suppose to? I did some math, but it isn't that hard to see the guilds are totally underfunded. By now it should be obvious to anyone that the 'Guild Wars' part is suffering from a the badly balanced income system (no offense you guys). For the (8-10) weeks I have seen the guilds truly active, I have not seen the guilds making a single action, assaulting anything or building anything. Okay, some hired some maids. And many initial guildmembers are already reduced to bringing in only 1%. I think its too bad for all the nice ideas that a lot of people wrote up that might never (or maybe in five years) use. I don't mind that much, since it did enhance role-playing somewhat, but I do think the 'Guild Wars' part should be restructured and rebalanced. At least, I don't feel my gladiators who are guildmembers are having a significant impact upon the 'Guild Wars'. But I will leave that up to the creators and contributors of the system to fix, since my ideas of an interesting 'Guild Wars' system is somewhat different from the current setup and were rejected during the creation. P.S. When I am talking about the 'Guild Wars' system I specifically mean the wargame/accounting system of rules meant to be played between guild masters, not the role-playing side of the guilds. The RP part is going nicely.
Ravashack 01-11-06, 03:21 PM	I think your decision was logical and well founded. A targeted spell must have a target. I don't see where the misunderstanding comes from. The misunderstanding came from SauroGrenom referring to how crawling tattoos could store area effect spells -- like Energy Bolt -- even though the tattoos specifically say that the power must target one or more creatures, and using that as a basis for using Energy Cone in the weapon.
Mal-2 01-11-06, 03:25 PM	Marcus [ECL 5] is on three week quest to become member of EHTC. Are you sure? Last week's Pairings lists you as on a quest for Assassin membership. I seem to recall you looking around specifically for a questlord to do assassin membership. I know someone (I don't recall who) said you could do both at once. If that changed at the last minute, how did you end up questing for EHTC membership instead?
Altaris13 01-11-06, 04:22 PM	I did some math, but it isn't that hard to see the guilds are totally underfunded. By now it should be obvious to anyone that the 'Guild Wars' part is suffering from a the badly balanced income system (no offense you guys). For the (8-10) weeks I have seen the guilds truly active, I have not seen the guilds making a single action, assaulting anything or building anything. Okay, some hired some maids. And many initial guildmembers are already reduced to bringing in only 1%. I think its too bad for all the nice ideas that a lot of people wrote up that might never (or maybe in five years) use. I don't mind that much, since it did enhance role-playing somewhat, but I do think the 'Guild Wars' part should be restructured and rebalanced. At least, I don't feel my gladiators who are guildmembers are having a significant impact upon the 'Guild Wars'. But I will leave that up to the creators and contributors of the system to fix, since my ideas of an interesting 'Guild Wars' system is somewhat different from the current setup and were rejected during the creation. P.S. When I am talking about the 'Guild Wars' system I specifically mean the wargame/accounting system of rules meant to be played between guild masters, not the role-playing side of the guilds. The RP part is going nicely. Actually, from what I've seen the Guilds are coming along quite nicely. I believe PSI, WAR & EHTC are all building a second boarding room this week or next. The CEF has already completed construction on one structure that bumped Taxes by 5% (nunnery.) Each Guild starts with a free barracks to house members. The district that guild is located in generates additional income beyond the Arena Tax. So the Tax is (almost) entirely profit towards growth. One requires a Maid to keep the rooms cared for, so we hired maids before building more rooms. More rooms allows more members, bringing in more income. You also need a Basic Room before you can advance to a Fancy Room. By doing that, the higher ECL PCs become eligible for the full 10% tax, further encouraging growth. Sure it has taken 2 months to get to this point, but much of that time was taken up during the Holiday breaks and people questing to join with their PCs. I personally like the Guild structure, it encourages RP, over arching stories & plots and adds a long-term element that the Arena was completely without.
Usurpator 01-11-06, 04:27 PM	Proposal for new Win-Loss and Power Calculations: 4 man All-vs-All (FFA) Winner gets +150% of the current rule (average of all other gladiators ratings) First loser gets +50% (and counts as a Win instead of a Loss) 2nd Loser -50% 3rd loser gets -150% 3 Man All-vs-All (FFA) Winner gets +100% of the current rule First loser gets 0% (but still counts as loss) 2nd loser gets -100% 4 Man Hunter Fights Second place counts as a win, not as a loss. Ideas, opinions?
SauroGrenom 01-11-06, 04:30 PM	The question of what qualifies as a "target" came up in the discussion of allowed powers for Crawling tattoo's. I think that powers/spells with an area of effect qualify as having a "Target". The reasoning for this is based on the same reasoning used in the decision of what qualifies as a possible power for a crawling tattoo. The pivotal passage from the SRD is as follows: Like a psionic tattoo, a crawling tattoo can be scribed only with a power of no higher than 3rd level that targets one or more creatures. Exceptions are the body adjustment power, which can be scribed even though it affects only the manifester, and telepathy (compulsion) powers, which cannot be scribed at all. Powers that normally have an area affect only one target if scribed in a crawling tattoo. I'll go through this one sentence at a time so that we call all understand the implications of each statement. The first sentence tells us a broad category of powers that are viable options for a crawling tattoo. Any power 3rd level or less with a target qualifies. So if further statements qualify any exceptions or alter any specific groups of powers, then they must also satisfy these bacis properties. The second sentence tells us a few exceptions. Body Adjustment is an exception as well as Telepathy (Compulsion) powers. So it appears that Body Adjustment does not qualify as a power with a "Target", this is beacuse it requires a special exception to be allowed. This is also because Body Adjustment is a power with a target entry reading "You". So all other personal ranged powers are not considered "Targeted" and do not have a special exception so they cannot be crawling tattoos. That was decided by Cat about a month ago. The last sentence changes the Area of any power scribed as a crawling tattoo to effect only one subject. The existance of this sentence is unnecessary if powers with an Area are not allowed to begin with. I cannot find a single example of a power that causes an Area effect that also has a "Target" entry. So why does this sentence exist if Area powers are not allowed to begin with? The obvious conclusion is that powers with an Area of Effect are considered to be "Targeted". To top it all off, there three basic crawling tattoo's in the SRD. One of them is Energy Bolt. If you look up the power Energy Bolt you see that it is an Area Effect power with no "Target" entry. So obviously the enclusion of this power as one of the example crawling tattoos implies that it satisfies the necessary criterion for becoming a crawling tattoo. I.e. Energy Bolt is a power of 3rd level or less that targets one or more creatures. If Energy Bolt targets a creature why not Energy Cone, or Energy Burst or... any number of other Area Effect powers?
DTFarstar 01-11-06, 04:43 PM	On a totally unrelated note, I was just looking at the pitlord list and I think Caterane should use his credits and make a 33rd level Gladiator. :P
Macbrea 01-11-06, 05:02 PM	My math had taken the fact all the correct rooms existed. I was just pointing out that purely on the rooms and tax a guild would have to build up 20 people in order to house 5. And Marcus is a perfect example. By the time he finishes his enterance quest into EHTC he will be level 7. They will recieve 56 gold from his quest.
Altaris13 01-11-06, 05:05 PM	The question of what qualifies as a "target" came up in the discussion of allowed powers for Crawling tattoo's. I think that powers/spells with an area of effect qualify as having a "Target". The reasoning for this is based on the same reasoning used in the decision of what qualifies as a possible power for a crawling tattoo. The pivotal passage from the SRD is as follows: I'll go through this one sentence at a time so that we call all understand the implications of each statement. Piece of advice: when trying to convince people, don't come across in such a condescending, egotistical and overly arrogant fashion. The first sentence tells us a broad category of powers that are viable options for a crawling tattoo. Any power 3rd level or less with a target qualifies. So if further statements qualify any exceptions or alter any specific groups of powers, then they must also satisfy these bacis properties. The second sentence tells us a few exceptions. Body Adjustment is an exception as well as Telepathy (Compulsion) powers. So it appears that Body Adjustment does not qualify as a power with a "Target", this is beacuse it requires a special exception to be allowed. This is also because Body Adjustment is a power with a target entry reading "You". So all other personal ranged powers are not considered "Targeted" and do not have a special exception so they cannot be crawling tattoos. That was decided by Cat about a month ago. The last sentence changes the Area of any power scribed as a crawling tattoo to effect only one subject. The existance of this sentence is unnecessary if powers with an Area are not allowed to begin with. I cannot find a single example of a power that causes an Area effect that also has a "Target" entry. So why does this sentence exist if Area powers are not allowed to begin with? The obvious conclusion is that powers with an Area of Effect are considered to be "Targeted". To top it all off, there three basic crawling tattoo's in the SRD. One of them is Energy Bolt. If you look up the power Energy Bolt you see that it is an Area Effect power with no "Target" entry. So obviously the enclusion of this power as one of the example crawling tattoos implies that it satisfies the necessary criterion for becoming a crawling tattoo. I.e. Energy Bolt is a power of 3rd level or less that targets one or more creatures. If Energy Bolt targets a creature why not Energy Cone, or Energy Burst or... any number of other Area Effect powers? No one said area affect powers are not allowed, for crawling tattoos. Crawling Tatoos provide specific clauses regarding area affect powers. This verbage is missing from everything else, including regular Tattoos. As such, this verbage applies only to Crawling Tattoos. This wording changes the area affect of such powers to targeted affects. A spell storing weapon lacks this verbage, but instead requires the standard spell/power itself to have area of effect = target. != cone, !=burst, !=line and so forth. Only targeted spells/powers can be placed in a spell storing weapon. I fail to see where the confusion lies.
TelinArtho 01-11-06, 05:08 PM	Well, if we think about it a little - you'd see that it has to be this way. Otherwise - things would develop too quickly and it would get out of hand much too early. As for generating income - the income of the active members of the guild isn't the only possibility. CEF for instance built a nunnery that a) increases the "tax" of the active members and contributes a sizable amount to the guild each week as well. As it is - if CEF has no active gladiators in a given week - we'd still be earning ~200 gold/week. It takes time - but I'm sure in a few months - we'll be seeing a flurry of activity for the guildmasters to take care of. As it is - I'm running 1-3 MQ/week for new members. As they get incorporated in - I think the guilds will become quite active.
Altaris13 01-11-06, 05:08 PM	Proposal for new Win-Loss and Power Calculations: 4 man All-vs-All (FFA) Winner gets +150% of the current rule (average of all other gladiators ratings) First loser gets +50% (and counts as a Win instead of a Loss) 2nd Loser -50% 3rd loser gets -150% 3 Man All-vs-All (FFA) Winner gets +100% of the current rule First loser gets 0% (but still counts as loss) 2nd loser gets -100% 4 Man Hunter Fights Second place counts as a win, not as a loss. Ideas, opinions? Sounds good to me. @Macbrea: yeah, but Marcus is a bad example. Entrance quests don't provide money to the guild, and should only be MQ anyhow. Besides, Quests provide significantly more XP/GP than regular Arena Matches, and throw the scale way off.
SoulLord 01-11-06, 05:10 PM	The district that guild is located in generates additional income beyond the Arena Tax. Would you care to expand on this?
Macbrea 01-11-06, 05:13 PM	Sounds good to me. @Macbrea: yeah, but Marcus is a bad example. Entrance quests don't provide money to the guild, and should only be MQ anyhow. Besides, Quests provide significantly more XP/GP than regular Arena Matches, and throw the scale way off. Why aren't enterance quests considered taxable by the guild? Upon completion of the quest before you recieve your money for the quest. You become a member of the guild. And therefore should be taxed.
Usurpator 01-11-06, 05:15 PM	The obvious conclusion is that powers with an Area of Effect are considered to be "Targeted" An area of effect spells it not targeted. That's just all there is too it. We have already gone through exactly that same paragraph once before, and concluded that is was badly written. I can give countless examples that refute what you claim. Will give a few just of the top of my head: Spell Turning, Invisbility, Dispel Magic. BTW, Bless is an example of a spell that targets creatures within it's area of effect. (See also the 'Area' description of Spells in the Magic chapter, subheading 'Creatures'). It is a much less far-fetched assumption that Crawling Tattoo of Energy Bolt was an error. Fireball does not target, it hits everything within its burst, seen, unseen, everything.
Altaris13 01-11-06, 05:19 PM	Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6467442) Guild Income: The lifeblood of a guild is its income, and it depends both on its members, their success, and the economic strategy used. Almost everything a guild can do requires gold to do. There are three ways to gain gold: Tax, Structures, and Operations. Taxes: This is the basic income of a guild. Everytime a player character that belongs to that guild earns money in the various arena fights and on quests (i.e. not on Campaigns), the guild treasury gains 10% of his earnings. However, this money is not really lost to the PC! Obviously, the higher in level a member, the better the Tax income for a guild. The tax decreases by 1% per ally the PC owns, so a PC with a cohort and a warhorse only earns the guild 8%. Ignore tiny and smaller allies as well as non-combatants (like mules). Decimals are always rounded down. Structures: Structures are buildings or institutions that a guild owns in a district. Structures generate a certain amount of gold each week, depending on the district, the local guilds there, and the structure itself. For more information see 'Structures' below. Operations: By doing certain operations, be it direct assaults, covert missions, or political intrigues, a guild can steal money from other guilds. For more information see 'Operations' below. @Macbrea, I agree with you that entrance quests should provide income, but Prisonlords says otherwise. I have yet to see (or notice I should probably say) any Guild that has included entrance MQ income in their accounting.
SoulLord 01-11-06, 05:36 PM	So if a guild manages to buy a lvl 1 structure for 3000gp it will give 100 gp each week (* modifier) and cost in upkeep 200 gp ?? structures (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7464844)
lonewolf 01-11-06, 05:46 PM	So if a guild manages to buy a lvl 1 structure for 3000gp it will give 100 gp each week (* modifier) and cost in upkeep 200 gp ?? structures (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7464844) yes If you now consider that the modifier is probably about 4-6 for starters, such a building makes 200-400gp a week, paying itself of in about 10 weeks. That modifier can be increased further with the right structures and the secondary effect of the structures may also generate income, or save expenditures. So those structures are a good long term investion.
SauroGrenom 01-11-06, 05:49 PM	No one said area affect powers are not allowed, for crawling tattoos. Crawling Tatoos provide specific clauses regarding area affect powers. This verbage is missing from everything else, including regular Tattoos. As such, this verbage applies only to Crawling Tattoos. This wording changes the area affect of such powers to targeted affects. A spell storing weapon lacks this verbage, but instead requires the standard spell/power itself to have area of effect = target. != cone, !=burst, !=line and so forth. Only targeted spells/powers can be placed in a spell storing weapon. I fail to see where the confusion lies. I said I'll go through this one sentence at a time so that we call all understand the implications of each statement. with the intention to prefacing what would be a kind of long and detailed analysis with a reason for doing it. I simply want to make sure that the things I conclude from the relevant passage are well described so that no one is unable to understand me. I simply want everyone in the discussion to know that I'm trying to draw logical meaning from a basic SRD passage. I also like to let people know what I'm going to talk about before getting into it. This helps the reader put the information into a context to facilitate understanding. I'm not going to pretend to give you general advice on how to communicate nor am I going to try and insult you by stating that you have certian undesirable personality characteristics. I think we should keep the discussion here to be one about the rules in question not about eachother as people. I referenced the Crawling tattoo's section because it has very simular criterion for what is allowed as a power when compared to the Powerstoring items. They use the same language. It is reasonable in my opinion to consider that if the same language is used in two places that it applies in a similar manner in both places. The original post states. I ran into an issue last week with Kracknol (SauroGrenom)'s flail of powerstoring. He had stored energy cone which is a cone area effect power. Powerstoring requires that the power be targeted. I would read that to mean direct targeted, not area of effect. How does everyone else read that one? MitzaVolchenko makes a distinction between "direct targeted" and "area of effect". I don't think we are allowed to make that distinction. This is not a game mechanic that I'm familare with. Some spells are targeted, others are not. Some spells target a single creature, multiple creatures, an area or item. Others have no target at all. Take Fireball for example. This spell is an AoE spell. It also is targeted. The center of the emination must be chosen. This center is the "target" of the spell. The spell fails if the "target" is not in LoE of the spell caster. In this cast the spell fails because the spell caster is unable to "target" the spell into the desired square. Lightning bolt is another example of the same thing.
Altaris13 01-11-06, 06:09 PM	I'm not going to pretend to give you general advice on how to communicate nor am I going to try and insult you by stating that you have certian undesirable personality characteristics. I think we should keep the discussion here to be one about the rules in question not about eachother as people. I guess I failed to communicate my point properly. I wasn't insulting you or voicing opinions on your personality, I was saying that your turn of phrase is unnecessarily strong. Your wordplay comes across as if your talking down to people, at least to me. I give you the benefit of the doubt and figure your just a well read & grammatically thorough individual, but I know for a fact that other people have taken offense at the way some of your posts have been presented. I'm sorry for the unintended insult. I said with the intention to prefacing what would be a kind of long and detailed analysis with a reason for doing it. I simply want to make sure that the things I conclude from the relevant passage are well described so that no one is unable to understand me. I simply want everyone in the discussion to know that I'm trying to draw logical meaning from a basic SRD passage. I also like to let people know what I'm going to talk about before getting into it. This helps the reader put the information into a context to facilitate understanding. Oh I completely understand the point of the preface. But imo it is unnecessary. And I belive that opinion is shared by the majority. We're not reading college essays here. :) I referenced the Crawling tattoo's section because it has very simular criterion for what is allowed as a power when compared to the Powerstoring items. They use the same language. It is reasonable in my opinion to consider that if the same language is used in two places that it applies in a similar manner in both places. Ah, but the two sections do not have similar terminology. Power Storing A power storing weapon allows a manifester to store a single targeted power of up to 5 power points in the weapon. (The power must have a manifesting time of 1 standard action.) Any time the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately manifest the power on that creature as a swift action if the wielder desires. (This ability is an exception to the rule that manifesting a power from an item takes at least as long as manifesting that power normally.) Once the power is manifested, the weapon is empty, and a manifester can imbed any other targeted power of up to 5 power points into it. The weapon telepathically whispers to the wearer the name of the power currently stored within it. A randomly generated power storing weapon has a 50% chance to have a power stored in it already. Strong psychokinesis; ML 12th; Craft Psionic Arms and Armor, creator must be a manifester of at least 12th level; Price +1 bonus. Crawling Tattoos Crawling tattoos resemble standard psionic tattoos, but their effects are often harmful rather than beneficial. Like a psionic tattoo, a crawling tattoo can be scribed only with a power of no higher than 3rd level that targets one or more creatures. Exceptions are the body adjustment power, which can be scribed even though it affects only the manifester, and telepathy (compulsion) powers, which cannot be scribed at all. Powers that normally have an area affect only one target if scribed in a crawling tattoo. Powers with an experience point requirement cannot be scribed into a crawling tattoo. Otherwise, crawling tattoos are treated as psionic tattoos until they are activated by the wearer. The wearer of a crawling tattoo can tap the tattoo as a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity, mentally specifying a target (to which the wearer must have line of sight). Instead of manifesting its stored power, the tattoo animates, drops to the ground, and scuttles toward the target. The original wearer need no longer concentrate on the tattoo once animated. The animated tattoo moves toward its designated target in the same round when it is activated. Treat it as a Fine construct that has AC 18, 10 hit points, a hardness of 5, speed 30 feet, and a bonus on attack rolls equal to the wearer’s manifester level + his key ability modifier. Crawling tattoos, unlike true constructs, are subject to illusions, darkness, fog, and similar effects. Should the target be killed, teleport away, or otherwise absent itself before the animated tattoo reaches it, the wearer can reclaim the tattoo. If it is destroyed, a crawling tattoo shatters and evaporates. A crawling tattoo must enter the target’s square to attack and thus provokes attacks of opportunity as it passes through the target’s threatened area. The tattoo makes one touch attack per round thereafter until it strikes its target or is destroyed. On a successful attack, the power scribed in the crawling tattoo affects the target if the target fails the appropriate saving throw; however, powers that normally allow a Reflex saving throw automatically affect the touched target. Crawling tattoos can ferry beneficial powers as well as harmful ones, and a target can allow the tattoo’s touch attack to succeed if he or she desires. Two examples of crawling tattoos are described below; many more types are possible. Market Price The cost of a crawling tattoo depends on the level of the power scribed in it. Power Level Market Price 1st 50 gp 2nd 300 gp 3rd 750 gp Crawling Tattoo of Concussion This crawling tattoo delivers a concussion effect, dealing 1d6 points of damage to a creature hit by its touch attack. Faint psychokinesis; ML 1st; Craft Universal Item, concussion blast; Price 50 gp. Crawling Tattoo of Energy Bolt Each of these tattoos is keyed to one energy type: cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. This crawling tattoo delivers the energy bolt power, dealing 5d6 points of damage of its energy type. Faint psychokinesis; ML 5th; Craft Universal Item, energy bolt; Price 750 gp. As you can see, the powerstoring section makes no reference to altering area affect powers to become targeted powers. Only crawling tatoos have this feature. The original post states. I ran into an issue last week with Kracknol (SauroGrenom)'s flail of powerstoring. He had stored energy cone which is a cone area effect power. Powerstoring requires that the power be targeted. I would read that to mean direct targeted, not area of effect. How does everyone else read that one? MitzaVolchenko makes a distinction between "direct targeted" and "area of effect". I don't think we are allowed to make that distinction. This is not a game mechanic that I'm familare with. Some spells are targeted, others are not. Some spells target a single creature, multiple creatures, an area or item. Others have no target at all. Take Fireball for example. This spell is an AoE spell. It also is targeted. The center of the emination must be chosen. This center is the "target" of the spell. The spell fails if the "target" is not in LoE of the spell caster. In this cast the spell fails because the spell caster is unable to "target" the spell into the desired square. Lightning bolt is another example of the same thing. But we /are/ allowed to make that desitinction. Fireball is not targeted. You select an point in space that it explodes, doing burst radial damage to all creatures & objects in a fourty foot diameter. You do not "target" that point in space, so much as choose where the explosion takes place. Charm Person has a target. Two very different things. AoE != Target.
Ravashack 01-11-06, 06:09 PM	I said with the intention to prefacing what would be a kind of long and detailed analysis with a reason for doing it. I simply want to make sure that the things I conclude from the relevant passage are well described so that no one is unable to understand me. I simply want everyone in the discussion to know that I'm trying to draw logical meaning from a basic SRD passage. I also like to let people know what I'm going to talk about before getting into it. This helps the reader put the information into a context to facilitate understanding. I'm not going to pretend to give you general advice on how to communicate nor am I going to try and insult you by stating that you have certian undesirable personality characteristics. I think we should keep the discussion here to be one about the rules in question not about eachother as people. I referenced the Crawling tattoo's section because it has very simular criterion for what is allowed as a power when compared to the Powerstoring items. They use the same language. It is reasonable in my opinion to consider that if the same language is used in two places that it applies in a similar manner in both places. The original post states. MitzaVolchenko makes a distinction between "direct targeted" and "area of effect". I don't think we are allowed to make that distinction. This is not a game mechanic that I'm familare with. Some spells are targeted, others are not. Some spells target a single creature, multiple creatures, an area or item. Others have no target at all. Take Fireball for example. This spell is an AoE spell. It also is targeted. The center of the emination must be chosen. This center is the "target" of the spell. The spell fails if the "target" is not in LoE of the spell caster. In this cast the spell fails because the spell caster is unable to "target" the spell into the desired square. Lightning bolt is another example of the same thing. That isn't targeted in the same sense SauroGrenom. That sort of target is referred to as where you are aiming. Basically anything Spell Turning can reflect is considered targeted, and anything Spell Turning can't reflect is not. Target, Effect, and Area are all predefined in the Magic Overview section in the SRD. There is no semantics to interpret here. AIMING A SPELL You must make some choice about whom the spell is to affect or where the effect is to originate, depending on the type of spell. The next entry in a spell description defines the spell’s target (or targets), its effect, or its area, as appropriate. Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell. If the target of a spell is yourself (the spell description has a line that reads Target: You), you do not receive a saving throw, and spell resistance does not apply. The Saving Throw and Spell Resistance lines are omitted from such spells. Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing. Some spells allow you to redirect the effect to new targets or areas after you cast the spell. Redirecting a spell is a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Effect: Some spells create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present. You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it. Range determines how far away an effect can appear, but if the effect is mobile it can move regardless of the spell’s range. Ray: Some effects are rays. You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack. As with a ranged weapon, you can fire into the dark or at an invisible creature and hope you hit something. You don’t have to see the creature you’re trying to hit, as you do with a targeted spell. Intervening creatures and obstacles, however, can block your line of sight or provide cover for the creature you’re aiming at. If a ray spell has a duration, it’s the duration of the effect that the ray causes, not the length of time the ray itself persists. If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon. A ray spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Spread: Some effects, notably clouds and fogs, spread out from a point of origin, which must be a grid intersection. The effect can extend around corners and into areas that you can’t see. Figure distance by actual distance traveled, taking into account turns the spell effect takes. When determining distance for spread effects, count around walls, not through them. As with movement, do not trace diagonals across corners. You must designate the point of origin for such an effect, but you need not have line of effect (see below) to all portions of the effect. Area: Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below. Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don’t control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection. You can count diagonally across a square, but remember that every second diagonal counts as 2 squares of distance. If the far edge of a square is within the spell’s area, anything within that square is within the spell’s area. If the spell’s area only touches the near edge of a square, however, anything within that square is unaffected by the spell. Burst, Emanation, or Spread: Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell’s point of origin and measure its effect from that point. A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, even including creatures that you can’t see. It can’t affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don’t extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst’s area defines how far from the point of origin the spell’s effect extends. An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres. A spread spell spreads out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes. Cone, Cylinder, Line, or Sphere: Most spells that affect an area have a particular shape, such as a cone, cylinder, line, or sphere. A cone-shaped spell shoots away from you in a quarter-circle in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and widens out as it goes. Most cones are either bursts or emanations (see above), and thus won’t go around corners. When casting a cylinder-shaped spell, you select the spell’s point of origin. This point is the center of a horizontal circle, and the spell shoots down from the circle, filling a cylinder. A cylinder-shaped spell ignores any obstructions within its area. A line-shaped spell shoots away from you in a line in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and extends to the limit of its range or until it strikes a barrier that blocks line of effect. A line-shaped spell affects all creatures in squares that the line passes through. A sphere-shaped spell expands from its point of origin to fill a spherical area. Spheres may be bursts, emanations, or spreads. Creatures: A spell with this kind of area affects creatures directly (like a targeted spell), but it affects all creatures in an area of some kind rather than individual creatures you select. The area might be a spherical burst , a cone-shaped burst, or some other shape. Many spells affect “living creatures,” which means all creatures other than constructs and undead. Creatures in the spell’s area that are not of the appropriate type do not count against the creatures affected. Objects: A spell with this kind of area affects objects within an area you select (as Creatures, but affecting objects instead). Other: A spell can have a unique area, as defined in its description. (S) Shapeable: If an Area or Effect entry ends with “(S),” you can shape the spell. A shaped effect or area can have no dimension smaller than 10 feet. Many effects or areas are given as cubes to make it easy to model irregular shapes. Three-dimensional volumes are most often needed to define aerial or underwater effects and areas. Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it’s not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight. You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast. A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creatures, or objects to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst’s center point, a cone-shaped burst’s starting point, a cylinder’s circle, or an emanation’s point of origin). An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell’s line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell’s line of effect.
SauroGrenom 01-11-06, 06:14 PM	An area of effect spells it not targeted. That's just all there is too it. We have already gone through exactly that same paragraph once before, and concluded that is was badly written. I can give countless examples that refute what you claim. Will give a few just of the top of my head: Spell Turning, Invisbility, Dispel Magic. BTW, Bless is an example of a spell that targets creatures within it's area of effect. (See also the 'Area' description of Spells in the Magic chapter, subheading 'Creatures'). It is a much less far-fetched assumption that Crawling Tattoo of Energy Bolt was an error. Fireball does not target, it hits everything within its burst, seen, unseen, everything. I think you are assuming that all targets are creatures or items. I don't think that assumption is anywhere in the SRD. I think areas are also targeted by some spells. Several of the spells you mention do target. They simply target an area not a specific creature or item. Bless is an example of a spell that targets chosen creatures in an area. Not the entire area. But this example actually supports my interpretation. This area spell does not have a "Target" entry but does have an "Area" entry and specifically targets the caster and there allies in that area. Obviously this spell targets one or more creatures in a specific area without having a "Target" entry. Other spells target the entire area its self and any in that area are effected by the spell. Also last time we looked at this passage from the SRD your take was to use the implied meaning of the "Exception" to dissalow all powers with a range of "personal" and ignore the logical falicy that was present in the "Exception". Now (if I understand correctly) you want to ignore the implied meanings of the area of effect statement. So when these kinds of ambiguities arise, I'm not clear on how it is that you like to resolve them?
Ravashack 01-11-06, 06:20 PM	I think you are assuming that all targets are creatures or items. I don't think that assumption is anywhere in the SRD. I think areas are also targeted by some spells. Several of the spells you mention do target. They simply target an area not a specific creature or item. Bless is an example of a spell that targets chosen creatures in an area. Not the entire area. But this example actually supports my interpretation. This area spell does not have a "Target" entry but does have an "Area" entry and specifically targets the caster and there allies in that area. Obviously this spell targets one or more creatures in a specific area without having a "Target" entry. Other spells target the entire area its self and any in that area are effected by the spell. Also last time we looked at this passage from the SRD your take was to use the implied meaning of the "Exception" to dissalow all powers with a range of "personal" and ignore the logical falicy that was present in the "Exception". Now (if I understand correctly) you want to ignore the implied meanings of the area of effect statement. So when these kinds of ambiguities arise, I'm not clear on how it is that you like to resolve them? No, it does not. Bless is an example of an area effect. If you want an example of something that targets multiple creatures in an area, try Horrid Wilting.
Usurpator 01-11-06, 06:26 PM	I think you are assuming that all targets are creatures or items. I don't think that assumption is anywhere in the SRD. I think areas are also targeted by some spells. Several of the spells you mention do target. They simply target an area not a specific creature or item. I understand your confusion now. Targets in the sense of spellcasting (and powerstoring) means 'Target: xxx'. You are using the common language interpretation of 'target' instead of the game definition. If you are invisible and you verbally assault someone, it is not considered an 'attack' in the sense of the spell, even though it may semantically be an attack (on his person, honor, whatever) and would not make someone visible. If you 'target' a fireball at the intersection of square so-and-so, it doesn't make Fireball a targeted spell in the D&D sense. If it did that would be tantamount to saying that everyone who fights has the Fighter class, or everyone that goes to war has the warrior class. In D&D you can fight without being a 'Fighter' in the D&D sense. You can also target spells or cast spells that have targets without them being 'targeted spells'. For an example of the text that I would have expected, if a powerstoring weapon could be used that way you want it to, read the Spellsword class in Complete Warrior, special ability 'Channel Spell'.
SauroGrenom 01-11-06, 06:29 PM	That isn't targeted in the same sense SauroGrenom. That sort of target is referred to as where you are aiming. Basically anything Spell Turning can reflect is considered targeted, and anything Spell Turning can't reflect is not. Target, Effect, and Area are all predefined in the Magic Overview section in the SRD. There is no semantics to interpret here. I have another quote from the SRD: CASTER LEVEL A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to your class level in the class you’re using to cast the spell. You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level. In the event that a class feature, domain granted power, or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt) but also to your caster level check to overcome your target’s spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check). So let's apply this in a circumstance where a mage casts a fireball originating from a point near a n oppoent with SR. If your mage has an ability to increase CL from something like an Orange Ioun Stone, then does the increased CL apply for the SR check? By your interpretation the Mage has not targeted anything, and his Ioun Stone appliess to the CL checks against the SR of his "targets". So your read of the rules would suggest that he cannot increase his CL with regard to overcoming the SR of his opponent.
Usurpator 01-11-06, 06:37 PM	By your interpretation the Mage has not targeted anything, and his Ioun Stone appliess to the CLchecks agains the SR of his "targets". So your read of the rules would suggest that he cannot increase his CL with regard to overcoming the SR of his opponent. No, here they are using the common language definition of 'targets', not the D&D spell definition of 'targets'. As always you should study the context of the rules and the general logic of the rules. Many Feats for example say: "The character can do X or Y". Does that mean that monsters (who are not characters in D&D terms) cannot use the feat? Of course not. Context and common sense points out that they meant to include any user of the feat. D&D is not a semantic and syntactical logic puzzle, it's a role-playing game. Which means that you are not 100% wrong with your claim about powerstoring weapons, the rules simply aren't 100% clear, it is just that the majority seems to intepret the rules differently from you.
Altaris13 01-11-06, 06:44 PM	No, here they are using the common language definition of 'targets', not the D&D spell definition of 'targets'. As always you should study the context of the rules and the general logic of the rules. Many Feats for example say: "The character can do X or Y". Does that mean that monsters (who are not characters in D&D terms) cannot use the feat? Of course not. Context and common sense points out that they meant to include any user of the feat. D&D is not a semantic and syntactical logic puzzle, it's a role-playing game. Which means that you are not 100% wrong with your claim about powerstoring weapons, the rules simply aren't 100% clear, it is just that the majority seems to intepret the rules differently from you. Exactly. Well said Usurp.
SauroGrenom 01-11-06, 06:45 PM	I understand your confusion now. Targets in the sense of spellcasting (and powerstoring) means 'Target: xxx'. You are using the common language interpretation of 'target' instead of the game definition. Yes that is exacitially what I'm doing, and I'm not doing it out of confusion but rather because I think it's reasonable to do so. If you 'target' a fireball at the intersection of square so-and-so, it doesn't make Fireball a targeted spell in the D&D sense. Why not? If it did that would be tantamount to saying that everyone who fights has the Fighter class, or everyone that goes to war has the warrior class. In D&D you can fight without being a 'Fighter' in the D&D sense. You can also target spells or cast spells that have targets without them being 'targeted spells'. No not realy. I'm not saying that we should use the common english definition of all our game terms. I'm also not saying that a spell can be targeted at anything at all. For example you cannot target a thought with a fireball. Nor can you target a person's faith or love with a lightning bolt. Nor can you target something or somewhere that is not in your LOS. I'm simply saying that when you choose the "point of origin" for an area effect you are targeting the spell to a specific area. This is a "Targeted" spell. We already have an example in the SRD that uses this interpretation of a "Targeted" power, the crawling tattoo of energy bolt. Why not use the same interpretation in another context?
NiQil 01-11-06, 06:50 PM	Yes that is exacitially what I'm doing, and I'm not doing it out of confusion but rather because I think it's reasonable to do so. Why not? No not realy. I'm not saying that we should use the common english definition of all our game terms. I'm also not saying that a spell can be targeted at anything at all. For example you cannot target a thought with a fireball. Nor can you target a person's faith or love with a lightning bolt. Nor can you target something or somewhere that is not in your LOS. I'm simply saying that when you choose the "point of origin" for an area effect you are targeting the spell to a specific area. This is a "Targeted" spell. We already have an example in the SRD that uses this interpretation of a "Targeted" power, the crawling tattoo of energy bolt. Why not use the same interpretation in another context? A targeted spell is only a targeted spell if the spell description lists "Target: xxx" in it's spell description. Anything without this descriptor, by D&D definition, is not a targeted spell. Your example with Energy Bolt doesn't work, because crawling tattoos have a specific line that states how to deal with putting area affect powers into tattoos. It changes them to targeted spells for the purpose of using it in the tattoo only. The Spell Storing and Power Storing enchantments have no such rules that I am aware of, and therefore default to the normal definition of a targeted spell, which requires "Target: xxx" in it's spell description.
DTFarstar 01-11-06, 06:58 PM	Hmm, I think the basic thing that needs to be decided here isn't whether or not Fireball is a targetted spell. It clearly is if you use the common definition and it clearly isn't as far as not having a "Target:" in it's description. I think what needs to be decided is whether, in crawling tattoos and powerstoring weapons, the "targetted spell" means any spell with a target, or a spell that has "Target: -----" in it's description. That's the crux of this argument, it seems to me. Sauro seems to be convinced that, like other places in the books(Caster Level being an excellent example, Sauro), the "targetted spell" just means what the common definition of the term is, a spell where you have to select who or what or spell to affect. Ursurpator and Altaris(and others), on the other hand, are convinced it is the hard game-defined spell with a "Target: -----" in the descriptor. Really, this is all just about the weapon enhancement being poorly worded, but we see that alot of places in the DnD books. Maybe the writers need to take a few more 400 level composition courses =-P. Anyway, just to throw my 2cp in, I personally think that it means spells with a "Target: ----" in their description. Simply because otherwise the majority of spells could be said to qualify and some of them just flat out make no freaking sense. I could be wrong though, that is just always the way I've interpretted it. I just thought I would throw all that out there because all the parties in this argument seemed(I could be wrong) to be thinking that everyone was using their definition and just disagreeing with what that would mean instead of actually reading the whole thing differently.
SauroGrenom 01-11-06, 07:07 PM	No, here they are using the common language definition of 'targets', not the D&D spell definition of 'targets'. As always you should study the context of the rules and the general logic of the rules. Many Feats for example say: "The character can do X or Y". Does that mean that monsters (who are not characters in D&D terms) cannot use the feat? Of course not. Context and common sense points out that they meant to include any user of the feat. D&D is not a semantic and syntactical logic puzzle, it's a role-playing game. Which means that you are not 100% wrong with your claim about powerstoring weapons, the rules simply aren't 100% clear, it is just that the majority seems to intepret the rules differently from you. My general method of interpretation is an enabling one. The rules exist as a format to allow players to do interesting things. The logical rule system helps prevent irreconsilable argument and facilitates construction of ability and roleplay. I like to look at the rules and see what's possable. Others like to look at the rules and see what's not possable. Also I have no problem with everyone having a different interpretation of the rules that I do. That has a certian degree of relevance to actual play in the game and it sparks lively debate. At some point if its simple a difference of opinion the discussion ends without resolution. Then what is the correct course of action in the future? In my opinion GM/Elder descision is needed to make a final resolution if there is nothing in the rules to produce a final and irrefutable conclusion. What iritates me is when others have a different interpretation and then use positions of authority to enforce there opinion to the detriment of my characters without any debate or compromise. That's how this whole thing got started, but here we are now and where to go from here is the main question. It seams that our discussion has reached a point where you're telling me to ignore the logical implications of one passage in the SRD regarding the meaning of a target, and to use a more common interpretation of the meaning of a target in a second passage that would otherwise imply that areas can be a target. All to the end of making the number of things that can be "Targets" smaller, and decreasing the utility of the powerstoring ability. I'm not yet convinced. Louder or more numerous statements of the same vein will not change my interpretation. If the rules clearly made it impossable to store Energy Cone in a powerstoring weapon, then I'd relent. So far I do not see a clear indication of that. Our rules are not a democracy and being outnumbered by by 4 or 5 to 1 does not invalidate my interpretation. I think we may need to go to a higher authority on this one to make a final decision.
SauroGrenom 01-11-06, 07:30 PM	A targeted spell is only a targeted spell if the spell description lists "Target: xxx" in it's spell description. Anything without this descriptor, by D&D definition, is not a targeted spell. Your example with Energy Bolt doesn't work, because crawling tattoos have a specific line that states how to deal with putting area affect powers into tattoos. It changes them to targeted spells for the purpose of using it in the tattoo only. The Spell Storing and Power Storing enchantments have no such rules that I am aware of, and therefore default to the normal definition of a targeted spell, which requires "Target: xxx" in it's spell description. Where in the SRD do we have a definition of a "targeted spell"? I cannot find it. If you can I'd appreciate a notification. This term "targeted spell" is only used in two places I can find. The Powerstoring and Spellstoring abilities are the only two places. Perhaps the term "targeted spell" is not a game mechanic but should be interpreted with a more common definition of the word targeted. The crawling tattoo example is actually a very good example. The rules of the crawling tattoo (quoted above) would need to use language simular to the "Exception" granted to body adjustment if powers with an Area were otherwise not allowed. If area powers did not satisfy the first criterion (3rd level or lower with a target), then they would not be considered at all. So an exception simular to the one for Body Adjustment would be required. Rather the language assumes that you are going to consider an Area power and modifies the effect to a target after the power is scribed. This describes a process of choosing eligable powers and then modifying the effect. What is described in the rules now is simular to asking for a 50lbs turkey and then cutting off the leggs to fit the thing in your oven. What you're proposing is that only things without leggs can fit in the oven regardless of how big it is.
Ravashack 01-11-06, 07:53 PM	I have another quote from the SRD: So let's apply this in a circumstance where a mage casts a fireball originating from a point near a n oppoent with SR. If your mage has an ability to increase CL from something like an Orange Ioun Stone, then does the increased CL apply for the SR check? By your interpretation the Mage has not targeted anything, and his Ioun Stone appliess to the CL checks against the SR of his "targets". So your read of the rules would suggest that he cannot increase his CL with regard to overcoming the SR of his opponent. If you were going to go by exactly the way it is written, it says absolutely nothing about what happens if something is hit by an area effect. It's not our fault WoTC's writers for the PHB/SRD can't account for every single exacting nitpick people bring up. Therefore, you CANNOT make any sort of assessment on the situation at all and have it be RAW. You still haven't said anything about spells like Horrid Wilting though. (Targets: Living creatures, no two of which can be more than 60 ft. apart) Or Mass (any spell). (Target: One creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart) Or Banishment. (Targets: One or more extraplanar creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart) Or Control Undead. (Targets: Up to 2 HD/level of undead creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart) Point being, if your interpretation was definitely correct, there would be no need to have these kinds of mass targeting. Just make them all burst area effects with the order of the ones closest to the point of origin be the first ones affected. As for where targeted spell is used, the first one that comes to mind is, again, Spell Turning. Edit: Way more examples of "targeted spell": Ray: Some effects are rays. You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack. As with a ranged weapon, you can fire into the dark or at an invisible creature and hope you hit something. You don’t have to see the creature you’re trying to hit, as you do with a targeted spell. Intervening creatures and obstacles, however, can block your line of sight or provide cover for the creature you’re aiming at. Creatures: A spell with this kind of area affects creatures directly (like a targeted spell), but it affects all creatures in an area of some kind rather than individual creatures you select. The area might be a spherical burst , a cone-shaped burst, or some other shape. Many spells affect “living creatures,” which means all creatures other than constructs and undead. Creatures in the spell’s area that are not of the appropriate type do not count against the creatures affected. Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells. All from the Magic overview section.
NiQil 01-11-06, 08:14 PM	Where in the SRD do we have a definition of a "targeted spell"? I cannot find it. If you can I'd appreciate a notification. This term "targeted spell" is only used in two places I can find. The Powerstoring and Spellstoring abilities are the only two places. Perhaps the term "targeted spell" is not a game mechanic but should be interpreted with a more common definition of the word targeted. The crawling tattoo example is actually a very good example. The rules of the crawling tattoo (quoted above) would need to use language simular to the "Exception" granted to body adjustment if powers with an Area were otherwise not allowed. If area powers did not satisfy the first criterion (3rd level or lower with a target), then they would not be considered at all. So an exception simular to the one for Body Adjustment would be required. Rather the language assumes that you are going to consider an Area power and modifies the effect to a target after the power is scribed. This describes a process of choosing eligable powers and then modifying the effect. What is described in the rules now is simular to asking for a 50lbs turkey and then cutting off the leggs to fit the thing in your oven. What you're proposing is that only things without leggs can fit in the oven regardless of how big it is. Well let me settle this once and for all. This should clear up everything. You must make some choice about whom the spell is to affect or where the effect is to originate, depending on the type of spell. The next entry in a spell description defines the spell's target (or targets), its effect, or its area, as appropriate. It then goes on to define the various ways a spell can be aimed on the same page, with the bolded headings Target or Targets, Effect, Area, and Line of Effect. Below is the portion entitled Target or Targets Some spells, such as charm person, have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. For example, you can't fire a magic missile spell (which always hits its target) into a group of bandits with the instruction to strike "the leader." To strike the leader, you must be able to identify and see the leader (or guess which is the leader and get lucky). However, you do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell. If the target of a spell is yourself (the spell description has a line that reads Target: You), you do not receive a saving throw, and spell resistance does not apply. The Saving Throw and Spell Resistance lines are omitted from such spells. Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing. Some spells, such as flaming sphere and spiritual weapon, allow you to redirect the effect to new targets or areas after you cast the spell. Redirecting a spell is a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Note the bolded section above. It says that a targeted spell is shown within the spell description itself. It later uses the 'Target: You' line as an example of the spell description text. That would seem to indicate to me pretty clearly that a targeted spell is identified by having the 'Target: xxx' line in it's spell description, and that anything without this line is not a targeted spell.
TheMagister 01-11-06, 09:18 PM	Niqil has the right of it. I'm sorry, Sauro, but the Magic Section in the PHB is pretty clear about what a Targetted spell is in this framework. What's neat is that you couldn't put a lightning bolt into a spell storing weapon, but you COULD put a chain lightning in there, and deal a whole bunch of lightning damage to a whole crowd of people. :) TM
SauroGrenom 01-11-06, 11:58 PM	NiQil is absolutely correct about what it says in the PHB about how to define a target or what the "Target:xxx" entry on a spells description means. However that is irrelevant for whether a spell is a "targeted spell". What we have is a bolded sentence coppied from the PHB (Thanks NiQil) that tells us that when a spell has a "Target:xxx" entry that it can be targeted on a creature or item. This does not tell us that all targets are creatures or items, nor does it tell us that all targeted spells can only be those that target creatures or items. It is tempting to assume that because we are told that spells with a "Target:xxx" entry can be used to target creatures and items, that all targets are creatures or items. It is also tempting to use the language about what the "Target:xxx" entry allows and say that a "targeted" spell is the same thing. This is a logical leap that several of those in the discussion are willing to make, but I don't think is necessary or even defensible as being true. Everyone is clear about what the rules passages say on the matter. The only question is how do they apply to the specific case of the PowerStoring or SpellStoring abilities. It is my opinion that a targeted spell is a spell that is targeted in any sense, not only spells that have a "Target:xxx" entry in the description. According to NiQil's definition, there is a very limited number of powers that cause direct damage and are options to store into a powerstoring weapon. I did a quick search of the list and I came up with only 4. They are Energy Missile, Mind Thrust, Dissolving Touch, and Dissipating Touch. I'm not sure what the options for a Spell Storing weapon are, but it will likely be another small list. Chain Lightning is not an option because it is a spell of greater than 3rd level. Generating this short list also requires that we ignore multiple instances of "targeting" of powers that do not have a "Target:xxx" entry. Take the description of Energy Ray coppied below: Energy Ray Psychokinesis [see text] Level: Psion/wilder 1 Display: Auditory Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Effect: Ray Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: Yes Power Points: 1 Upon manifesting this power, you choose cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. You create a ray of energy of the chosen type that shoots forth from your fingertip and strikes a target within range, dealing 1d6 points of damage, if you succeed on a ranged touch attack with the ray. Cold: A ray of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die. Electricity: Manifesting a ray of this energy type provides a +3 bonus on your attack roll if the target is wearing metal armor and a +2 bonus on manifester level checks for the purpose of overcoming power resistance. Fire: A ray of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die. Sonic: A ray of this energy type deals –1 point of damage per die and ignores an object’s hardness. This power’s subtype is the same as the type of energy you manifest. Augment: For every additional power point you spend, this power’s damage increases by one die (d6). Apparently this spell strikes a target, but the spell description does not have a "Target:xxx" entry. We can clearly see in the language of the spell description that it is a "targeted" spell even though it is not a spell with a "Target:xxx" entry. This is another basis for my argument. Infact amany (if not all) Ray spells speak of having targets without having a "Target:xxx" entry. So far the strongest evidence against my interpretation is the passages found by Ravashack. Well specifically the only one that applies to the question of what is a "targeted spell" is the one from the description of the Ray. The bolded sentence clearly implies that a "targeted spell" is different from a ray spell. That does not however compleately rule out all spells that have an Area and no "Target:xxx" entry. Take for example Breath of the Black Dragon, Disable, Ectoplasmic Cocoon... each of these uses the term "target" in the description of the power and they do not have "Target:xxx" entries. Perhaps they can be included in the short list of powers that are considered "targeted", because they mention a target in the description.
Ravashack 01-12-06, 12:37 AM	You're ignoring the Creatures sentence. SauroGrenom. A spell with this kind of area affects creatures directly (like a targeted spell), but it affects all creatures in an area of some kind rather than individual creatures you select. This line right here tells us that Targeted spells requires you to SELECT individuals. You cannot select specific creatures within the Area of effect of Fireball, Lightning Bolt, and so on to be affected while ignoring others. Thus they cannot possibly be "targeted" spells. Honestly, if someone renamed the "Targeted" spells to "Victim" spells, a lot of this semantic fencing around would vanish pretty fast...to be replaced with a different kind. -_-; Actually if you're going to use Powers, give me a minute. :P Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a power that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted power you sense that the power has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area powers. Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells. Note the fact that it specifically says that you DO sense when a creature saves on a targeted power/spell, but NOT on Effect and Area powers/spells. That means Targeted spells/powers are NOT Effect spells/powers or Area spells/powers. This also further emphasizes what Usurpator was saying about needing to see the context.
Luni 01-12-06, 03:37 AM	Question: If the D&D FAQ completely disagrees with the SRD, which is right?
NiQil 01-12-06, 04:36 AM	Question: If the D&D FAQ completely disagrees with the SRD, which is right? Generally speaking, in a situation like that, you would go with the rule of primary sources vs secondary sources, which makes the FAQ a secondary source, meaning you would go with the SRD. That being said, you may want to post the issue you are referring to....oftentimes the FAQ seems to contradict the RAW at first, but upon further inspection it actually doesn't. If you can throw the issue out here, we can tear it apart and see if there is a true disagreement.
MitzaVolchenko 01-12-06, 04:58 AM	I apologize for opening the can of worms, however, the PHB (and SRD) make it clear that AoE's are NOT targeted spells. It is my belief that Energy Cone was selected for its massive damage capability, which I can well understand for a one hit killer like Kracknol. Sauro states that he is an enabling sort when it comes to interpretation of rules. I would then ask what about the defender? How does transferring a vastly powerful AoE into a targeted power so that you can tack on that much more damage to an already sizeable damage pool enable the victim? I see enabling the game as balancing the game. What would be the response if the monster whipped out with the powerstoring glaive of death and dropped an AoE out of it? Would the argument be that it was all cool or that it was abusive, wrong, and unfair to the player? I think we have a ruling, and with that ruling, I would ask that Sauro be allowed to replace the Energy Cone with another equal level power of the proper type for this week's fight and henceforth select a proper power overall. Because this debate ran over into the new pairings, it would not be fair to strip him of the power entirely, but it should be adjusted to fit the rules.
Pitlords 01-12-06, 07:42 AM	As announced in the FotW thread (11.Jan) there will be some changes in the rules. Here are the relevant changes in the Rules of Gladius. The changes are bolded. MiniQuests: MiniQuests are similar to arena fights but they follow some of the rules for Quests. A MiniQuest takes one week to complete, in-and off-game, and they do not cost a credit although your character is still considered active for that week. Because of the single week, the 1/3 rule for spellcasting and items applies in MiniQuests, too. You can die like in Standard Quests, but you do not get the +33% Quest Completion reward that regular Quests get. Miniquests may have any EL (your choice). The questgoal is also up to you. If you quest for an ally, the Questlord is encouraged not to pair you against your to-be ally but find a creative way around. For example, the amazon cohort you want to quest for needs to be rescued from the clutches of a blackguard, or to reach the lair of a direbat ally you have to pass through a dangerous forest first. If the Questlord still let's you fight your Questgoal then he should make sure that it is no auto-win (eg. fly up and peck the T-Rex with arrows until dead *yawn*) nor easier than a regular encounter of that EL. Additionally, you must not kill the to-be ally unless you want to raise it as an undead. Types of MiniQuests: There are two different ways to run a MiniQuest. The easier way is to run it like an arena fight on the Dungeon Map. Request tactics normally, and post it in the Battles thread. Since this is much easier than an arena fight you have to write a little story around the fight. The other possibility is to open a seperate thread and run it similar to a Standard Quest, although not as detailed. The player may make decisions on the spot and roleplaying will surely benefit from this type of quest. Talk to the player which type he would prefer. Both versions are worth 1 credit. Campaigns are long-term adventures. The minimum time a Campaign takes are 6 weeks, and the maximum is 15 weeks. Campaignlords are advised to stick to this time frame, and deduct or add part to the adventure, if necessary because the GM will shut down the Campaign on Week 20, no matter if you are finished or not. If the Campaign definately needs more time, the Campaignlord can apply for a new Campaign and call it "Part II" or something that indicates it is a sequel. Scrolls and Powerstones: The Caster level or Manifesterlevel (CL/ML) of these items are restricted to your ECL+0. You may buy higher CL/ML scrolls and powerstones at the Blackmarket.
Cerebus13 01-12-06, 08:13 AM	@Pitlords Why are rules constantly being changed with largely no discussion with the community? I was pretty sure we had generally agreed that the cap on number of quests to your ECL was not a liked idea, but apparently it went in anyway. Expendables have always been an argued topic, but they are a necessary evil with the 1/3rd rule. If we begin to restrict them more and more the number of pure caster classes that are not already in the mid to high ECL range will drop even lower than it has. It is far too difficult to win matches at ECL3 if you only have access to 2 or 3 spell levels. Expendables help balance that out and give casters some sort of chance to beat the 800 different ranger/barbarian/cleric/monk combos that we see around here. I'm about ready to give up on the Community Vote thread because apparently questions about rules listed right in the SRD don't matter. We have a ton of different issues that could use some sort of ruling on such as: Flurrying in a grapple, tricks required to use a mount in combat without penalty, personal powers on Psionic Tattoos, etc. As it is now everyone just goes along with the popular opinion of the CoCo....or they decide to rule it some completely different way because it has never been officially clairified and we all argue about it for 7 pages in the fights thread.
Altaris13 01-12-06, 09:06 AM	@Pitlords Why are rules constantly being changed with largely no discussion with the community? I was pretty sure we had generally agreed that the cap on number of quests to your ECL was not a liked idea, but apparently it went in anyway. Expendables have always been an argued topic, but they are a necessary evil with the 1/3rd rule. If we begin to restrict them more and more the number of pure caster classes that are not already in the mid to high ECL range will drop even lower than it has. It is far too difficult to win matches at ECL3 if you only have access to 2 or 3 spell levels. Expendables help balance that out and give casters some sort of chance to beat the 800 different ranger/barbarian/cleric/monk combos that we see around here. I'm about ready to give up on the Community Vote thread because apparently questions about rules listed right in the SRD don't matter. We have a ton of different issues that could use some sort of ruling on such as: Flurrying in a grapple, tricks required to use a mount in combat without penalty, personal powers on Psionic Tattoos, etc. As it is now everyone just goes along with the popular opinion of the CoCo....or they decide to rule it some completely different way because it has never been officially clairified and we all argue about it for 7 pages in the fights thread. Quoted for truth. Personally, I appreciate the rules adjustments on MQ. And though I understand the changes to ECL+0 for expendables, I must agree with Cerebrus. While expendables do circumvent the 1/3 rule, they are a costly alternative. But they are a viable alternative. Now, I am not suggesting nor advocating in any fashion any changes to the 1/3 rule. If not for this rule, the Arena would simply be dominated by Novas, and melee types would have little or no chance.
waywreth 01-12-06, 10:26 AM	I want to start a character at a higher level (4) and had a few questions: 1. How much gold do you start with at level 4? Where is the chart that shows it, I couldn't find that? 2. XP - I'm guessing you start at 6,200 for 4th but wanted to be sure. 3. It costs 4 credits... do I just PM Pitlords with that? Thanks,
Macbrea 01-12-06, 10:30 AM	So, curiousity got me and I was wondering what characters that change effects directly and how. Here are the people effected by the current rule of ECL and what they are using. Third Level Ba'al (scroll: Fly (5)) Tergus (scroll: Spike growth (5)) Samuel (stone: Energy Bolt (5)) Dolleth (scroll: shocking grasp (5)) Javel (stone x2: Astral construct (5)) Fourth Level Uilo (scroll: Call Lightning (5)) Sola (scroll: dispel (5), Invisibility purge (5)) Kailia (stone: Eradicate Invisibility (5)) Amaryllis (scroll: spike growth (5)) Maeril (scroll: Shocking Grasp (5)) Savour Die (scroll: Nondetection (5)) Fifth Level ---- Sixth Level Auburn (scroll: Resist Energy (7)) Seventh or greater Level -----
Macbrea 01-12-06, 10:37 AM	1. How much gold do you start with at level 4? Where is the chart that shows it, I couldn't find that? As per the chart on the races page of the rules: 5700 gp 2. XP - I'm guessing you start at 6,200 for 4th but wanted to be sure. As per the same charge on the races page: 6300 xp 3. It costs 4 credits... do I just PM Pitlords with that? Cost is 4 credits per level over 3rd. So, 4 credits for a 4th level character. That should be PMed to pitlords when you PM your statement that your activating a new character.
Altaris13 01-12-06, 10:41 AM	I want to start a character at a higher level (4) and had a few questions: 1. How much gold do you start with at level 4? Where is the chart that shows it, I couldn't find that? 2. XP - I'm guessing you start at 6,200 for 4th but wanted to be sure. 3. It costs 4 credits... do I just PM Pitlords with that? Thanks, Rules of Gladius (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6463693) Hey man, here you go! ***** Starting- ***** -ECL -XP -Gold ________________________ 4 6300 5700 Yes, it costs four credits. When you finish the character and send the PM to pitlords that it is ready, just note in there the ECL and Pitlords will deduct the appropriate credits (in this case 4.) Edit: Heh... A little slow. @Macbrea: what are you trying to say with your post on the expendables changes?
Scribelords 01-12-06, 10:51 AM	Hey COCOers- Some new Birthday updates in the growing Roster (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7048484). January 11th - Vathelokai June 1st – Zevoz August 13th - bgt October 11th - DTFarStar So, a [belated] Happy Birthday to Vathelokai! (may the dice roll your way this week... at least you have 2o's to burn in your pocket :) ). Also, please send the Birthdays and years to me, and not Pitlords' account, ok? -Scribelords
Macbrea 01-12-06, 11:21 AM	@Macbrea: what are you trying to say with your post on the expendables changes? Actually, in an end of the world statement that low level casters would become unviable. I decided to check through all the characters in CoCo and see who actually had items that the rule effected. Surprisingly, it isn't that many. So, for an effect that will make all low level casters unviable. I am not buying it. And the individuals that have the items with only a slight change seem to be change out their item for another item without much difficulty. I could be wrong but if your build relies on your getting off a scroll/powerstone 2 levels higher then you in order to defeat your opponent. Your probably not horridly viable, anyways. Oddly, if you applied that to wands/djores it would only effect 2 characters in all of CoCo.
Altaris13 01-12-06, 11:44 AM	@Macbrea: what are you trying to say with your post on the expendables changes? Actually, in an end of the world statement that low level casters would become unviable. I decided to check through all the characters in CoCo and see who actually had items that the rule effected. Surprisingly, it isn't that many. So, for an effect that will make all low level casters unviable. I am not buying it. And the individuals that have the items with only a slight change seem to be change out their item for another item without much difficulty. I could be wrong but if your build relies on your getting off a scroll/powerstone 2 levels higher then you in order to defeat your opponent. Your probably not horridly viable, anyways. Oddly, if you applied that to wands/djores it would only effect 2 characters in all of CoCo. Ah. An interesting statement, and one supported by your original post. Bears consideration.
HuBBaBuBBa 01-12-06, 11:47 AM	can i buy weapons of Huge, Gargatuan or collosol size, and how mcuh would they weight? wut would be the damage, and wut would be the price? Ah. An interesting statement, and one supported by your original post. Bears consideration.
Altaris13 01-12-06, 12:03 PM	can i buy weapons of Huge, Gargatuan or collosol size, and how mcuh would they weight? wut would be the damage, and wut would be the price? Weapons Weapon Categories Weapons are grouped into several interlocking sets of categories. Weapon Size Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. Table: Larger and Smaller Weapon Damage Example Weapon Fine Diminutive Tiny Small Medium Large Huge Gargantuan Colossal Shuriken — — — 1 1d2 1d3 1d4 1d6 1d8 Gauntlet — — 1 1d2 1d3 1d4 1d6 1d8 2d6 Dagger — 1 1d2 1d3 1d4 1d6 1d8 2d6 3d6 Shortspear 1 1d2 1d3 1d4 1d6 1d8 2d6 3d6 4d6 Falchion 1d2 1d3 1d4 1d6 2d4 2d6 3d6 4d6 6d6 Longsword 1d2 1d3 1d4 1d6 1d8 2d6 3d6 4d6 6d6 Bastard Sword 1d3 1d4 1d6 1d8 1d10 2d8 3d8 4d8 6d8 Greataxe 1d4 1d6 1d8 1d10 1d12 3d6 4d6 6d6 8d6 Greatsword 1d4 1d6 1d8 1d10 2d6 3d6 4d6 6d6 8d6 A weapon’s size category isn’t the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon’s size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder. Inappropriately Sized Weapons A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon a -4 nonproficiency penalty also applies. The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all. Cost This value is the weapon’s cost in gold pieces (gp) or silver pieces (sp). The cost includes miscellaneous gear that goes with the weapon. This cost is the same for a Small or Medium version of the weapon. A Large version costs twice the listed price. Damage The Damage columns give the damage dealt by the weapon on a successful hit. The column labeled "Dmg (S)" is for Small weapons. The column labeled "Dmg (M)" is for Medium weapons. If two damage ranges are given then the weapon is a double weapon. Use the second damage figure given for the double weapon’s extra attack. Table: Larger and Smaller Weapon Damage gives weapon damage values for weapons of various sizes. Weight This column gives the weight of a Medium version of the weapon. Halve this number for Small weapons and double it for Large weapons. Type Weapons are classified according to the type of damage they deal: bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing. Some monsters may be resistant or immune to attacks from certain types of weapons. I believe you add another x1 for each larger category. So huge is weight & cost = X*3. But I'm not sure about that.
Dracazar 01-12-06, 12:19 PM	Some days ago I asked what do you think about a CoCo dice roller, only Ariel pm'ed me with some interesting request/hints. I wish to inform Ariel (and you), that I think I'll be able to allow the rolls' link (in your fights) clickable without the annoyng "continue" screen of WotC. I think that this would be a nice feature that could worth alone the coding of this roller. What do you think about?
waywreth 01-12-06, 12:24 PM	What do you think about this? I'll only support this if it screws me over royally like the current one :P . But seriously - it's up to you, the current one works well. @Macbrea and Altaris13 - Thank you, apparently I'm blind because I read that page.
SauroGrenom 01-12-06, 12:28 PM	Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells. Ravashack your quote above is the clincher. It obviously describes three classifications of spells; targeted, area and effect using the same terminlogy in the PowerStoring description. Thanks for finding that for me. MitzaVolchenko there is no need for appology on your part. This kind of discussion is what the Tavern is for. You are to be congratulated actually because you actually helped me grow my understanding of the rules a little bit. Thanks. Thanks again for having such a reasonable suggested solution for what to do with Kracknol this week. I've already PM's the pitlord with an alternative that is a targeted power and will cause the same damage without allowing a save, so in a way its an improvement. I did choose Energy cone for damage, but also because it would be great to fry my opponents allies as well as the one that the flail hits. But no dice. Nuts. Now I'm off to find the very best options for SpellStoring, because that will be the next enchantment on the flail. Ohhh Vampiric Touch at CL10!
Usurpator 01-12-06, 12:31 PM	@Pitlords & others, about the new scrolls and powerstones rule: 1. The new rule was proposed on the basis certain characters abused ECL+2 scrolls and powerstones and it gave them an unfair advantage. 2. If was furthermore assumed that the abuse would be curtailed by limiting scrolls and powerstones to ECL+0. 3. I was given the impression that the new rule was proposed for discussion in this forum, and a decision would be made based on the outcome of the discussion. A. Assumption 1 is incorrect - MacBrea's research shows that only few characters have such items. - Looking at win-loss statistics suggests that these characters are not more powerful than their peers. - I have not seen any evidence of this supposed abuse. B. Assumption 2 is incorrect - The main power/abuse of scrolls/powerstones doesn't come from ECL+2 items, but from scrolls/powerstones in general. Many builds in CoCo rely on expendables to win, but most achieve this using expendables of 3rd lvl or lower and thus are not affected by the new rule. - The unfair advantage (if there is such a thing) will not be removed by the new rule. What the new rule will do is give that advantage to the board members with lots of credits. I think this makes the new rule even more 'unfair' than the old rule. C. Apparently I assumed 3 wrong - I don't much like being asked for an opinion and my opinion subsequently being ignored or cast aside without argument. I know the CoCo isn't a democracy, but I would appreciate a bit more consideration for those who discussed the proposed rule. I concur with Cerebus13's feeling on this matter. So now we have a new rule that solves an imaginary problem with a faulty solution which ignores the contribution of many board members. Not good. Point C. is my largest issue with the new rule. We already have many existing rules that need to be clarified, and we try to do our best (like Cerebus13 or NiQil's initiatives) to handle them. Rather than inventing new rules, how about first updating the existing CoCo rules and handle issues that *do* give many board members reasons for concern?
Usurpator 01-12-06, 12:34 PM	About the new Quest and Campaign Rules: I like them! although the 'issues solved' where not ones that concerned me seriously, the solutions make sense to me and seem well thought out.
Cerebus13 01-12-06, 01:06 PM	@Macbrea: what are you trying to say with your post on the expendables changes? Actually, in an end of the world statement that low level casters would become unviable. I decided to check through all the characters in CoCo and see who actually had items that the rule effected. Surprisingly, it isn't that many. So, for an effect that will make all low level casters unviable. I am not buying it. And the individuals that have the items with only a slight change seem to be change out their item for another item without much difficulty. I could be wrong but if your build relies on your getting off a scroll/powerstone 2 levels higher then you in order to defeat your opponent. Your probably not horridly viable, anyways. Oddly, if you applied that to wands/djores it would only effect 2 characters in all of CoCo.I was probably not clear enough, but I meant Pitlords cryptic message at the end about "further discussion on the limiting of the expendable item use". Further limiting of the purchase and use of expendable items has the potential to greatly nerf lower level casters, not the ECL+2 to ECL+0 rule. Actually...based on your quick research Macbrea this rule will affect few if any people. What is the point of changing it if such a small amount of players even USE it? More time could be spent working on useful rules questions/clairifications and what have you, instead of odd rules changes that don't serve much of a purpose. ---------- I have to echo Usurpator's sentiment again: I feel slighted quite often as a member of this community when rules are changed without any consideration for OUR opinions. What is the point of having an Elder committee of players if their input is never consulted? What is the point of even having rules discussions at all if they are simply going to be ignored? I propose that we open the rules change process up more to somewhat of a democracy, and let the votes of the Elders and community members have some sway in decisions. Regulating all rules changing power is not the best solution... At least having a group of players/Elders of an odd number that would always be involved when something changed, so that a vote could be cast and that there would never be any ties. There is already multiple users of the Scribelords/Prisonlords accounts, why not make a "Ruleslord" account and have several members (Elders, players, Caterane, whoever) all subscribe to it and deal with the rules exclusively?
NiQil 01-12-06, 01:09 PM	I just wanted to point out here, with regard to the Court Decisions post in the Prison thread....these are official rulings. That was the idea behind my proposal to put them in the Prison in the first place. This way, if Cat/Pitlords doesn't make a ruling, Prisonlords can. That was done on purpose. That is also why I reopened the discussion regarding regarding the Psionic Fist/Weapon issue. There was enough outcry over the current ruling to warrant more discussion (though not very much has occurred so far). But putting these decisions in the Prison, this not only gives everyone a place to go to look for issues that pop up frequently, but if there is an issue that you want to see clarified, then Pitlords isn't the only one that can do it. With Cat having so much on his plate, I think we were all getting the impression that these things were just being hung out there somewhere, when in fact Cat may have just not had the time to look into them all. Part of the idea behind this post was to take some of that weight away from Pitlords and redistribute it, while giving an official ruling all at the same time. Now, granted....if there is something there that Cat wants to overrule, he is still within his power to do so, and the Decisions post can be updated accordingly. But until that happens, all rulings in the Decisions post should be considered official.
Altaris13 01-12-06, 01:24 PM	NiQil: I was not aware that the post in Prison was official. I got the impression it was another place to track the decisions we as a community came to a general concensus on /interpertation./
Fox Reeveheart 01-12-06, 01:27 PM	Hi o.o I am completely new and thinking about making a new character, but I have a question regarding using non-core content. Yes most stuff will be a no... but what about... EXCERPTS :D everyone has access to them with the appropriate link! right? I mean lets see, I am sure many are itching to make kobolds now with the new substitution levels and such, and I am sure there were other excerpts way back we could all use, yes?
NiQil 01-12-06, 02:02 PM	NiQil: I was not aware that the post in Prison was official. I got the impression it was another place to track the decisions we as a community came to a general concensus on /interpertation./ I apologize if that was made unclear when I originally announced the opening of that post...but they are. That was the purpose behind opening that post to begin with.
NiQil 01-12-06, 02:04 PM	Hi o.o I am completely new and thinking about making a new character, but I have a question regarding using non-core content. Yes most stuff will be a no... but what about... EXCERPTS :D everyone has access to them with the appropriate link! right? I mean lets see, I am sure many are itching to make kobolds now with the new substitution levels and such, and I am sure there were other excerpts way back we could all use, yes? The only material that is approved for use is the online SRD, the PHB, the MM, the DMG, and the XPH. All other material is not allowed here. Hence the name Core Coliseum.
Altaris13 01-12-06, 02:06 PM	Hi o.o I am completely new and thinking about making a new character, but I have a question regarding using non-core content. Yes most stuff will be a no... but what about... EXCERPTS :D everyone has access to them with the appropriate link! right? I mean lets see, I am sure many are itching to make kobolds now with the new substitution levels and such, and I am sure there were other excerpts way back we could all use, yes? Hey Fox! First, welcome to the Arena!!! :D Second, excerpts = bad. :P You know, like the Mulhorhandi Minion and the resultant Pun Pun. *shivers* We've not used them in the past, and the allowed sources are perfectly clear. And they do not include web-sources other than the SRD. You can always try to convince Pitlords to add excerpts as Core though. @Niqil: Yeah, I got that from your post above. I was just saying that I don't think /anyone/ really understood that Prisonlords has the capacity to make official rules decisions.
Altaris13 01-12-06, 02:10 PM	The only material that is approved for use is the online SRD, the PHB, the MM, the DMG, and the XPH. All other material is not allowed here. Hence the name Core Coliseum. Fox's point is that the excerpts are often considered Core since not only are they explicity published by WoTC, but they are available to the general public via link, just like the FAQ and SRD. Personally, in my TT games, only hard copy WotC producst and the SRD are considered Core. Because of the things you can do, like create Pun Pun, with the excerpts. And we just ignore the FAQ since Skip = retarded crack addict.
Fox Reeveheart 01-12-06, 02:12 PM	I am very rusty on D&D online gamings, whats TT? E.E Skip? PUN PUN?
NiQil 01-12-06, 02:12 PM	Hey Fox! First, welcome to the Arena!!! :D Second, excerpts = bad. :P You know, like the Mulhorhandi Minion and the resultant Pun Pun. *shivers* We've not used them in the past, and the allowed sources are perfectly clear. And they do not include web-sources other than the SRD. You can always try to convince Pitlords to add excerpts as Core though. @Niqil: Yeah, I got that from your post above. I was just saying that I don't think /anyone/ really understood that Prisonlords has the capacity to make official rules decisions. Prisonlords has always made official rulings with regards to anything that is posted as a violation as far as whether something is valid or not (the half giant/dragon disciple wings issue, for example). That is why the rulings were placed in the Prison...since that is where a lot of the rulings came from. This way, in addition to Cat, there is a secondary source available for rulings, so that he doesn't get swamped with questions as often, and so that they can be kept track of.
Cerebus13 01-12-06, 02:14 PM	I just wanted to point out here, with regard to the Court Decisions post in the Prison thread....these are official rulings.Good idea, however the rules are still managed by a couple of people and Pitlords does not often consult with the community before making some sweeping change. The CoCo thrives on being a community of like minded individuals, and it is unfair to not allow everyone to have some sort of say in changes that can affect their present or future characters.
waywreth 01-12-06, 02:21 PM	I am very rusty on D&D online gamings, whats TT? E.E Skip? PUN PUN? Table top aka real life as opposed to message boards.
Altaris13 01-12-06, 02:39 PM	I am very rusty on D&D online gamings, whats TT? E.E Skip? PUN PUN? TT = table top, like has been mentioned. Skip = Skip Williams, one of the WotC writers that does the Rules of the Game Articles and used to manage the FAQ. He's made many rules "clarifications" the many people find to be both stupid and contradictory to the RAW. Pun Pun... Heh, let me go find the link. EDIT. Bow before Pun Pun (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801) the Mighty Kobold, most powerful creature ever!!!
waywreth 01-12-06, 03:06 PM	Can anyone share a copy of Dungeon Crafter? It's freeware so I don't see any issues. The website that has it has been down for me for over a week now though.
Ravashack 01-12-06, 03:18 PM	The only material that is approved for use is the online SRD, the PHB, the MM, the DMG, and the XPH. All other material is not allowed here. Hence the name Core Coliseum. Don't forget that there is an exception for the psionic versions of races in the XPH, because they do not show up in the SRD.
Warclone 01-12-06, 11:12 PM	My friend says you can take natural attacks with manufactured weapon attacks. For instance, if you had a bite natural attack and a greatsword and a BAB of 6, you could attack twice with the greatsword and once with the bite. Can anyone confirm/deny this with quotes from the rules?
SauroGrenom 01-12-06, 11:22 PM	About psionics-magic transparency: I've got two questions. One is rather specific and the other rather general. The specific question is this; can a wizard/psion cast a spell on his familare and then manifest psionics or use psi-like abilities without wasting the spell on his familare? This came up in a fight a couple weeks back, so what's the analysis comming from those in the tavern? The opposite situation is also relevant. Say a wizard/psion casts chill touch using his familare as the toucher, and then manifests dissolving touch using his psicrystal as the toucher. Does the chill touch spell fizzle? How about if he uses a spell-like ability after that or a psi-like ability? The general question is related to the first; how far does the magic-psionics transparency go? For example, can you use a Animal Affinity and craft universal item to satisfy the requirements to craft psionic versions of gauntlets of ogre strength. Can you buy a rod of extend power? Can you create metapsionic versions of all metamagic feats including things like persistant spell? Can you craft psionic versions of various wondrous items like the Orange Ioun Stone or Ring of Wizardry or Bracers of Armor or whatever. All of these items have effects on caster level, spell slots or AC, and the spells that are the basis for them have direct counterparts in the list of psionic powers.
DTFarstar 01-12-06, 11:31 PM	I don't know why, but I really thought you could too, using the TWFing rules. I don't really see anything directly supporting it though. Weird.... Only thing I see is that as you are considered armed, natural attacks are considered weapons. As such, you do qualify for TWFing. Kind of like G-sword and armor spikes, but with more biting.
Snommelp 01-12-06, 11:32 PM	My friend says you can take natural attacks with manufactured weapon attacks. For instance, if you had a bite natural attack and a greatsword and a BAB of 6, you could attack twice with the greatsword and once with the bite. Can anyone confirm/deny this with quotes from the rules? Look to the Monster Manual. My favored form to take with Alter Self, the troglodyte, has a BAB lower than 6. However, it is listed with a full attack of club, bite, and claw. Other creatures will have the same. Therefore, as long as it is a full attack, you can attack with weapons both natural and manufactured. You would, however, take the necessary penalties for multiweapon fighting without the appropriate feat(s).
Ravashack 01-13-06, 12:37 AM	About psionics-magic transparency: The main thing to remember about psionic/magic transparency is that it ONLY has to do with how spells and powers interact with each other. No feats, no items, no skills, nothing else. The default rule for the interaction of psionics and magic is simple: Powers interact with spells and spells interact with powers in the same way a spell or normal spell-like ability interacts with another spell or spell-like ability. This is known as psionics–magic transparency. I've got two questions. One is rather specific and the other rather general. The specific question is this; can a wizard/psion cast a spell on his familare and then manifest psionics or use psi-like abilities without wasting the spell on his familare? This came up in a fight a couple weeks back, so what's the analysis comming from those in the tavern? The opposite situation is also relevant. Say a wizard/psion casts chill touch using his familare as the toucher, and then manifests dissolving touch using his psicrystal as the toucher. Does the chill touch spell fizzle? How about if he uses a spell-like ability after that or a psi-like ability? I don't see anything about the familiar nor the psicrystal that would allow the first question or disallow the second question. If this was intended, it would make a lot of sense to see "spell or power" on a psicrystal since that is written with spells and psionics potentially in the same campaign in mind, and you don't see that there. If the latter question was allowed, most likely there would be a house rule popping up real fast saying that you can't, so there's no real point in pushing it. The general question is related to the first; how far does the magic-psionics transparency go? For example, can you use a Animal Affinity and craft universal item to satisfy the requirements to craft psionic versions of gauntlets of ogre strength. Can you buy a rod of extend power? Can you create metapsionic versions of all metamagic feats including things like persistant spell? Can you craft psionic versions of various wondrous items like the Orange Ioun Stone or Ring of Wizardry or Bracers of Armor or whatever. All of these items have effects on caster level, spell slots or AC, and the spells that are the basis for them have direct counterparts in the list of psionic powers. Crafting psionic versions of magical items is definitely a DM (a.k.a. Cat) call. The only house rule for the CoCo that I am aware of regarding psionic and magical items is that you can mix and match magical and psionic enhancements. The only RAW that I've seen regarding psionics and magical items is a small list of suggestions of what psionic users can get out of normal magical items like a Pearl of Power being exactly like a Cognizance Crystal. There is also something to keep in mind about psionics as well. Note that there are no metapsionic enhancing items and definitely no manifester level increasing items. (And no persistent power, but the damage on that is already done.) That's not an oversight. Manifesters get way more out of a manifester level than a caster would out of a caster level, because of the spontaneous nature of metapsionics and augmentation. Do you REALLY want people able to chuck out stuff at the equivalent of a spell level or two higher on top of what they can already use? Overchannel and Wild Surge have their shortcomings and lack of stackability for good reason.
Warclone 01-13-06, 01:39 AM	Look to the Monster Manual. My favored form to take with Alter Self, the troglodyte, has a BAB lower than 6. However, it is listed with a full attack of club, bite, and claw. Other creatures will have the same. Therefore, as long as it is a full attack, you can attack with weapons both natural and manufactured. You would, however, take the necessary penalties for multiweapon fighting without the appropriate feat(s). OK, so if I was a warforged dragon disciple with a +11 BAB and a greatsword, when I full attacked could I hit with Greatsowrd 3 times, then bite, then slam?
Zevox 01-13-06, 01:45 AM	For the natural weapons, also take a quick glance at the Half-Fiend and Half-Dragon entries. To quote one (they both say the same): Full Attack: A half-fiend fighting without weapons uses both claws and its bite when making a full attack. If armed with a weapon, it usually uses the weapon as its primary attack and its bite as a natural secondary attack. If it has a hand free, it uses a claw as an additional natural secondary attack. Seems pretty cut-and-dry to me. Can't say on the slam thing though - I'd be inclined to think that slam attacks can't be used in conjunction with others, but thats not based in any rules I know of. Anybody else care to take a crack at that? Zevox
Altaris13 01-13-06, 08:40 AM	OK, so if I was a warforged dragon disciple with a +11 BAB and a greatsword, when I full attacked could I hit with Greatsowrd 3 times, then bite, then slam? That is absolutely correct. I would personally smack any GM that allowed a 'forged D-disciple, but that's another story. :D
Myrridin 01-13-06, 08:46 AM	What's up with this trend I'm seeing of gladiators just surrendering in fights? Personally...that's kinda crap. I mean, it's an arena combat, and you're allowed to just walk in and surrender with no penalty?
Macbrea 01-13-06, 09:02 AM	Actually, in the case that Imperi Vahalla vs Greefe. Even I couldn't figure out how Greefe would beat Imperi. Fighter type using light hammers (1d4+3+2 with rage) vs Were-eagle (10/silver) You will notice his max damage is 9 unless he crits. That was a lost fight when it arrived. It could be run by the pitlord but it would look like Greefe hits ineffectual, Imperi claws him, rinse, repeat.
Macbrea 01-13-06, 09:05 AM	Having no silver or cold iron on your character and being a melee character by level 7 has a good possibility of resulting in a loss.
Stormwind 01-13-06, 09:10 AM	I agree with Myrridin. The tendency of having gladiators surrender is kinda hard to swallow. I think that in an arena fight, you fight to the death. If you surrender or simply don't show up then I think you should suffer a penalty. I would like to propose the following (and Yes I am very aware this is harsh): If you surrender or do not show up for an arena fight, then you receive 0XP and 0GP. Even if you lose a fight in the arena you receive gold and experience. This should be because you have actually done something, you have risked your life. Not because you stepped out into the arena and immediately surrendered, as there is absolutely no risk involved in that. In the core rules you never receive experience let alone gold without some risk of death.
Myrridin 01-13-06, 09:18 AM	I would like to propose the following (and Yes I am very aware this is harsh): If you surrender or do not show up for an arena fight, then you receive 0XP and 0GP. Even if you lose a fight in the arena you receive gold and experience. This should be because you have actually done something, you have risked your life. Not because you stepped out into the arena and immediately surrendered, as there is absolutely no risk involved in that. In the core rules you never receive experience let alone gold without some risk of death. I like that idea. If you fight, and at least try, you get the gold/xp for losing. If you show up and just surrender...then nothing. And yes, there is the case where Greefe couldn't actually harm his opponent. That's also why you have to prepare, and do things like buy different types of arrows/hammers. My character Morgan has adamantium, silver, and cold iron arrows, in addition to the regular ones. If you didn't prepare your character to take on different types of challengers...that doesn't mean you should be able to surrender and get a losers share.
Pitlords 01-13-06, 09:23 AM	I can see where you are coming from and in a real campaign I would agree without doubt. Here however there's no penalty for death so what's the point in running a battle that both the players and the Pitlord know that it is futile? @all: I've opened a new Battles thread. I will from now on link all fights to the Pairings post, and then make a list of all pairings posts with links at the beginning of the thread. That way you can reach every fight with only two clicks.
Macbrea 01-13-06, 09:33 AM	I mean if it is a matter of wanting to see Greefe actually torn to pieces by Imperi I can easily run the fight. The only real thing that matters is can Greefe roll about fifteen 20s in a row. And even Ribking's tactics said.... Hmm, I give. Don't have time. So, improvise the whole fight or surrender. Any player that sends me tactics of that nature deserves the loss.
Stormwind 01-13-06, 09:49 AM	I can see where you are coming from and in a real campaign I would agree without doubt. Here however there's no penalty for death so what's the point in running a battle that both the players and the Pitlord know that it is futile? Hmm ... point taken. However I still feel that even the reward for losing should be earned. Perhaps a different approach then. How about determining a characters right to fight in the arena based on how many times they have surrendered. I.e. If a character has surrendered more times than his ECL, then the arena authorities will not let him fight anymore.
Myrridin 01-13-06, 10:17 AM	I can see where you are coming from and in a real campaign I would agree without doubt. Here however there's no penalty for death so what's the point in running a battle that both the players and the Pitlord know that it is futile? So the question is, is that the fault of the player, for not having an adaquetly prepared gladiator, or is it just unavoidable? I'd still like to see some penalty for just surrendering. Maybe not zero XP/gold, but only 50% of the normal amount for a loss. If for no other reason than to stop what appears to be a rash of these "fights" cropping up.
Macbrea 01-13-06, 10:25 AM	So, was it decided that the 'Creator must be 12th level' isn't a requirement for Ioun stones? If that is true I would like to know. Nexa (Usurpator) crafts Bracers of Armor +1 and a Dusty Rose Prism Ion Stone [Week 1/1]
MitzaVolchenko 01-13-06, 10:39 AM	Perhaps a different approach then. How about determining a characters right to fight in the arena based on how many times they have surrendered. I.e. If a character has surrendered more times than his ECL, then the arena authorities will not let him fight anymore. And when a tank fighter with no ranged attacks gets unluckily paired against ranged only opponents 3 weeks in a row in ECL3? Or an archer ends up with 4 monks in a row in ECL4? I think Maven is silly, though I get the point of the character...essentially paying credits to promote your competition faster... On the other hand if the FFA mess had continued, both of my girls were going to just surrender until it ended as it was a waste of resources and pitlord time to continue fighting in them.
Macbrea 01-13-06, 11:13 AM	Why would anyone happen to think that someone else taking expanded knowledge would place a power on their list? Just because someone else takes a feat doesn't mean you get to benefit from their feat. Example: A paladin's mount has evasion. That doesn't mean the paladin also has it. A psion with expanded knowledge making a stone doesn't give his expanded knowledge suddenly to every other psion.
Mal-2 01-13-06, 11:19 AM	Moving a discussion here from the Prison. To sum up: Thelgar Giantbane is a Rogue 1/ Egoist 1/ Barbarian 1/ Ranger 1. He purchased a Power Stone of Dissolving Weapon (ML 3), and wished to prebuff by applying it to his weapon. I posted in the Prison that he cannot prebuff with it, because he cannot activate the stone without risk of failure. I also noted that I don't see any way he can activate the stone at all without Use psionic Device. Dissolving Weapon is a Psychic Warrior level 2 power. Activation To activate a power stone, a manifester must mentally address it, as described below. Once the power is known, the power stone is treated as a power completion item, except as noted below. Addressing the Stone A power stone must be “addressed” before a character can use it or know exactly what power it contains. Doing this requires a successful Psicraft check (DC 15 + power level). Once a particular power stone has been addressed, it is not necessary to do so again. Addressing a power stone in advance lets a character proceed directly to the next step when the time comes to use it. Using a stone’s stored power after addressing the stone requires holding the stone and willing the power’s manifestation, as if manifesting a power normally (a standard action). Activating a power stone is subject to disruption just as manifesting a power normally would be. Additionally, the user must meet the following requirements. * The user must have the power on his or her class list. * The user must have the requisite key ability score. If the user meets these requirements and has a manifester level at least equal to the power’s manifester level, she can automatically manifest the stored power without a check. If she meets both requirements but her own level is lower than the power stone’s manifester level, she has to make a manifester level check (1d20 + user’s level), against a DC equal to the power stone’s manifester level +1, to manifest the power successfully. On a failure, the user must succeed on a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid brainburn (see below). A natural roll of 1 on this check is always a failure. Altaris13 says that since he bought the stone from a Psion with Expanded Knowledge, that Dissolving Weapon is now on his class power list. He also says that this allows him to prebuff with it, and that this has been approved by a CoCo Elder (King Uther). I don't see how he can possibly prebuff with it, and I don't understand the logic that allows him to activate the stone at all. Can someone enlighten me?
SauroGrenom 01-13-06, 11:23 AM	Any measure that decreases the amount of XP recieved for a surrender will only make the Maven abuse worse. The Maven abuse tries to use all the CoCo rules to skew the xp/gp ratio of a character so that the character has way more wealth than its opponents at the same ECL. The original stated intent of Maven was to do this and I preseume that at some point Maven will start to actually fight after she is way more well equiped than any others at her ECL. If a surrender is allowed to earn no XP, then Mavin will accumulate the income from her free activities and achieve her goal more easily.
Pittbull 01-13-06, 11:27 AM	Altaris13 says that since he bought the stone from a Psion with Expanded Knowledge, that Dissolving Weapon is now on his class power list. He also says that this allows him to prebuff with it, and that this has been approved by a CoCo Elder (King Uther). Sorry, I need to interrupt. King's aproval is wrong. The decission on expanded knowledge on powerstones, was that you can't get them in Gladius. I got hours of discussions with Jindl, half a year ago, because I wanted to have psion-made, psychic-warrior-power stones to save money. For example a powerstone of steadfest perception (ML7), not (ML10). Cat was on Jindl's side.
Scribelords 01-13-06, 11:33 AM	Looks like we just missed it, but Myrridin's Birthday was on January 4th. Hope you had a good one anyway, Myrridin! -Scribelords
Myrridin 01-13-06, 11:36 AM	Cat was on Jindl's side. Wow....and I must have missed the Apocalypse then. :P
SauroGrenom 01-13-06, 11:38 AM	I'm all for using the rules to enable characters to do interesting things, but even I don't think that Thelgar gets to use the stone of dissolving weapon. He certianly cannot prebuff with it. The Expanded Knowlege feat does not change a character's power list. It only effects the powers known. By a strict reading of the rules, Thelgar would not be able to use the dissolving weapon stone even if he had taken the Expanded Knowlege feat, because his class list is unaltered and that's what you need to use a powerstone. As a side point you can only prebuff with stones if you are able to activate the stone without possibility of error. Thelgar does not qualify.
Altaris13 01-13-06, 11:50 AM	Sorry, I need to interrupt. King's aproval is wrong. The decission on expanded knowledge on powerstones, was that you can't get them in Gladius. I got hours of discussions with Jindl, half a year ago, because I wanted to have psion-made, psychic-warrior-power stones to save money. For example a powerstone of steadfest perception (ML7), not (ML10). Cat was on Jindl's side. Buggered by an Elder, thus I won't push the issue. Ah well. Mal, I hope your ready to buy a new pony. :cool: Can't have you running away from me now can I? :devil:
Usurpator 01-13-06, 12:28 PM	Sorry, I need to interrupt. King's aproval is wrong. The decission on expanded knowledge on powerstones, was that you can't get them in Gladius. I got hours of discussions with Jindl, half a year ago, because I wanted to have psion-made, psychic-warrior-power stones to save money. For example a powerstone of steadfest perception (ML7), not (ML10). Cat was on Jindl's side. @Pitbull: If you have other obscure rulings from the past, please PM them to NiQil, so that they can be added to his list. My current rule of thumb as a Pitlord is to use only codified CoCo house rules, and use my own judgement to consider all other cases, even if they go against rulings from the past. Hopefully that will help to motivate everyone who remembers a relevant ruling from the past to bring it up and get it codified. We have had a discussion about this very subject several weeks ago, and no Elder chimed in at that time. In their absence it was more or less decided to allow it, just as getting ranger scribed scrolls to save on money are allowed.
Usurpator 01-13-06, 12:33 PM	What's up with this trend I'm seeing of gladiators just surrendering in fights? Personally...that's kinda crap. I mean, it's an arena combat, and you're allowed to just walk in and surrender with no penalty? The public and Gladius Arena management would surely object, and probably refuse to pay. But it is not a problem that can be easily fought with additional rules. If we create a penalty to surrendering, the only difference you will see is that pro forma tactics will be submitted to the Pitlord. Tactics that will most likely achieve the same result as a surrender (losing) but still make the Pitlord run the fight.
Pittbull 01-13-06, 12:36 PM	I was pro using expanded knowledge on powerstones. But Jindl was against it.
Myrridin 01-13-06, 12:42 PM	So make that the penalty. If you surrender your fight, you're automatically out of the next week's rotation. Sure people may just mail in the tactics, which again, sucks a lot. But at least it's a fight. I'm not sure if there *is* a good way to handle it, I just think it's a pretty crappy thing, and would like to see it stopped.
SoulLord 01-13-06, 01:04 PM	Even though I don't like people surrendering there is no easy way out. You could just as easily write tactics for your wizard to grab a greatsword and hit your foe until is dead! which would just make the pitlord work extra and achieve the same results.
Maraxus 01-13-06, 01:13 PM	Myrridin: Would you be happy, if a character with Str/Dex/Con 2 charged his opponent and attacked with his fists? Or a character who throws hammers against an opponent, he can hardly damage on a critical hit (through in that case the 4 Alchemis's fire and 4 flasks of Acid could have worked)
Macbrea 01-13-06, 01:14 PM	It happens, alot vs certian builds. Example: Mektos has fought 7 one on one fights. In his fights, his opponents have surrendered 4 times. The other three times my opponents thought killing the eagle was far more important then killnig the Kobold. In both of the group fights that he has lost. He was shot from hiding with a major blast. The strategy for beating the kobold should always be. If the kobold is riding the eagle, kill the kobold. If the kobold is on the ground run up and grapple him. If the kobold is hidden but the birds arrive kill them.
Macbrea 01-13-06, 01:43 PM	Hey, I have a silly question. Is Marcus allowed to buy his own room for his guild out of his own money? That way the guild does suffer horridly when I goto 6th level. I would end up a member of the guild with leadership feat. Making 1% - 1% = 0% for the guild. If I was allowed to spend my own money to buy a residence, then my guild would earn 9%. Hmmm.
Myrridin 01-13-06, 01:43 PM	Myrridin: Would you be happy, if a character with Str/Dex/Con 2 charged his opponent and attacked with his fists? Or a character who throws hammers against an opponent, he can hardly damage on a critical hit (through in that case the 4 Alchemis's fire and 4 flasks of Acid could have worked) Perhaps this is just an issue with me, and the way I create/run characters. I try to avoid the abuses like venerable aged druids, who then spend the whole fight in wild shape form. Characters like that wouldn't last to get to wild shape in most tabletop games; with the Str/Dex/Con of 2. The other question is, why doesn't an ECl 7 gladiator have a way to overcome various DR's?
SoulLord 01-13-06, 01:50 PM	Hey, I have a silly question. Is Marcus allowed to buy his own room for his guild out of his own money? That way the guild does suffer horridly when I goto 6th level. I would end up a member of the guild with leadership feat. Making 1% - 1% = 0% for the guild. If I was allowed to spend my own money to buy a residence, then my guild would earn 9%. Hmmm. Unfortunately no Gladiator money and guild money are two sepparate things your guild will have to get you a fancy room before you can start earning money for your guild again.
NiQil 01-13-06, 01:55 PM	Perhaps this is just an issue with me, and the way I create/run characters. I try to avoid the abuses like venerable aged druids, who then spend the whole fight in wild shape form. Characters like that wouldn't last to get to wild shape in most tabletop games; with the Str/Dex/Con of 2. The other question is, why doesn't an ECl 7 gladiator have a way to overcome various DR's? I can think of a number of reasons. Not being able to afford it, for example. If a character has lots of losses, then he is getting his money in small chunks, instead of one big one like a win, and he has to save up for everything he wants to buy. If he is an expendables-heavy character, more expendables will get bought before any saving happens. Another could be that the player simply didn't want to have the character take time off to craft, but didn't want to pay full price for things he could draft. Could also be that the character is saving his money for something specific. In the case of monks, why pay for something you will get as a class feature eventually anyway? There are more reasons, I'm sure...those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.
Macbrea 01-13-06, 02:09 PM	Ok, I have a silly question for you, Myrridin, If the following fight came up, how would you right tactics for it. Larktin (ECL 7) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7812536) vs Morgan macNiven (ECL 8) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8056415) This would be against an invisible grappler that can fly and would be charging from a distance. Some fights are almost impossible, you could right tactics but I guarrentee your greatsword is useless in a grapple and your arrows are useless vs the invisible monk with deflect arrow. The only thing that is preventing me from putting him into play was the fact I spent the credits last week to activate Marcus and throw him out on quest.
Cerebus13 01-13-06, 02:17 PM	Ok, I have a silly question for you, Myrridin, If the following fight came up, how would you right tactics for it. Larktin (ECL 7) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7812536) vs Morgan macNiven (ECL 8) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8056415) This would be against an invisible grappler that can fly and would be charging from a distance. Some fights are almost impossible, you could right tactics but I guarrentee your greatsword is useless in a grapple and your arrows are useless vs the invisible monk with deflect arrow. The only thing that is preventing me from putting him into play was the fact I spent the credits last week to activate Marcus and throw him out on quest.Erm, Mirror Image to avoid the insta-grapple, Enlarge Person to increase grapple ability, Ray of Enfeeblement to cripple opponent's grapple ability.... Definitely not an open and shut matchup.
TelinArtho 01-13-06, 02:20 PM	Morgan isn't exactly the best example to choose - since he was expressly made to quest. Also - with the addition of one spell - See Invisibility - the fight isn't even close to an open and shut case...
Macbrea 01-13-06, 02:33 PM	The reason why I choose Morgan is because he is a character 1 ECL higher then Larktin belonging to the player that says an ECL 7 character should have a way to deal with All manner of creature at their level. Larktin has 3 wasted levels of ECL and should be an easy kill assuming that he can hit him. If you fail to hit him and he manages to bite you. This fight would be over extremely quickly. Without applying any damage and just wrestling around with him on the ground assuming a loss of 2.5 constitution per round the fight would probably be over in under 10 rounds.
TelinArtho 01-13-06, 02:41 PM	But if he casts Enlarge Person the grapple checks are now even. He breaks the grapple - brings out the silver sword and chops you to pieces. Your +10 touch is good - but the tieing grapple mods would be very much against you here. And if he hits you with a ray of exhaustion - you would be in very dire straights... I still don't think he's ill-equipped to handle you.
Myrridin 01-13-06, 04:11 PM	I've also regretted a lot that I didn't remember to grab See Invis on Morgan...it's one of my staple spells. That said, he was also built with only questing in mind, and I still wish I had the spell. Not to mention the previous counters that were brought up. Mirror Image is a fantastic spell that, in the Arena, I'd cast pretty much every fight. Enlarge Person...same deal. Now there are 4-6 Morgan's standing there, all 10' tall with reach. Better hope you hit the correct one, because if you don't, Ray of Exhaustion, and then I pull out the Silver Greatsword and go to town. I may not beat Lartkin, but at least I have a fighting chance. And that's without See Invisibility up. If I have it, then I do have Ray spells and other options there, besides my bow. It's not a 100% assurred thing, but I'd hardly call it a situation where I have to write in my tactics, "I surrender, nothing I can do, don't waste time."
Vathelokai 01-13-06, 06:01 PM	Even though I don't like people surrendering there is no easy way out. You could just as easily write tactics for your wizard to grab a greatsword and hit your foe until is dead! which would just make the pitlord work extra and achieve the same results. I would have to agree with SoulLord. There are three reasons to surrender; 1) you are pulling a Maven 2) You can see no way to win the fight and want to save the pitlord some time 3) You didn't intend to activate the character anyway, but the got paired and you don't have time to write tactics and you don't want to cause a hassle by not participating in the fight in the first place (or last place, or whatever. Which reminds me, writing dialogue for Saffron Brass has kind of become a habit which I need to break.) I can understand wanting to stop #1, but 2 and 3 are valid reasons to surrender, and to be honest I love surrenders because I don't have to spend 4 hours running a fight that cannot be won. Hey, I have a silly question. Is Marcus allowed to buy his own room for his guild out of his own money? That way the guild does suffer horridly when I goto 6th level. I would end up a member of the guild with leadership feat. Making 1% - 1% = 0% for the guild. If I was allowed to spend my own money to buy a residence, then my guild would earn 9%. You will be pleased to know that the minimum you can be at is 1%. If you are already at 1% and buy ten horses, you cannot be reduced below 1%.
Luni 01-13-06, 08:27 PM	Take Ariel vs Noko. I surrendered with Ariel, only because I didn't see any way to win. Notes: Clerics don't ever get access to see invisibilty. Invisibility Purge is useless against a Pixie player who remembers to stay out of reach. True Seeing is level 5 spell, and with the restrictions to buying scrolls of higher ECL, hard to get. Clerics first Area of Effect spell is level 5. And also, probably won't work against a pixie rogue. Since you can't counterspell SLA, gambling that my opponent won't dispel Air Walk seems a silly waste of money. If anyone saw good winning tactics for Ariel to beat Noko, feel free to let me know.
nightbanegod 01-13-06, 09:33 PM	heres a question i will DEFINITELY need an answer too... in rebuking a creature... it is under your controll effectively.. what is used in determining if that creature can be used in the arena... ECL or CR? and if so how much different from my ECL does it have to be?
TelinArtho 01-13-06, 09:47 PM	A rebuked creature is not under your control. Only if you have double the creature's HD in cleric level for turning can you control it. Now if you control something it is either based on its ECL (in which case the max is ECL-2) or CR (in which case the max is ECL-4). I would assume it is based off of the later, but I'd have to check further in the rules of Gladius to know. Can you give an example of what you are trying for?
Book5 01-13-06, 10:07 PM	heres a question i will DEFINITELY need an answer too... in rebuking a creature... it is under your controll effectively.. what is used in determining if that creature can be used in the arena... ECL or CR? and if so how much different from my ECL does it have to be? hmmm, the answer to your questions is to be found in reviewing the combat (2) srd rtf. You do retain control of controlled undead indeffinatly. You maximum is HD. Not CL/ECL/CR. You can have a number of undead whose HD accumulate to equal your HD. Note: The mental command to control those undead is a standard action. Not a free action. I have, on occasion, declared that negative clerics are probably the most unbalanced characters class in the basic set. Compared to their positive brethren.. there is a manifest difference in power level based off the controlled undead alone. Then there is the slightly increased combat effectiveness due to the inflict substitution... add the (noncore) "reach spell" feat.. whoot! Bad mofos.
nightbanegod 01-13-06, 10:09 PM	awww C :censored: P ... forgot about the double HD thing... that blows... was aimging to net a red dragon...mount...
TelinArtho 01-13-06, 11:58 PM	Made my first ever psionic character. Comments? Anton (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8228087)
NiQil 01-14-06, 12:16 AM	Made my first ever psionic character. Comments? Anton (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8228087) One thing that immediately jumps out...since it looks like your longspear will be your melee weapon of choice, I would recommend getting some armor spikes for your chain shirt so you threaten at both 5 and 10 feet.
nightbanegod 01-14-06, 12:50 AM	One thing that immediately jumps out...since it looks like your longspear will be your melee weapon of choice, I would recommend getting some armor spikes for your chain shirt so you threaten at both 5 and 10 feet. just thought id attempt to take credit for that idea by my horseman basing people while mounted with a lance.. was an issue brought up in a FoTW thread... muhaha
Vathelokai 01-14-06, 02:02 AM	Made my first ever psionic character. Comments? Anton (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8228087)I second the armor spikes; reach weapon and spikes is a powerfull combo. I'd go against the defensive precognition; it's only a +1 to AC and the augment on it cost at least 3 pp. I recommend crystal shard (it's summoning so spell/psi resistance dosn't protect), demoralize (makes opponents shaken), or vigor (since your guy looks like a fighter you might save some money with it). Then of course there's my standard recommendation of synesthete tatoo (vs. blindness), prot. chaos potion (vs summons) and universal solvent (vs entangle). Then there is the slightly increased combat effectiveness due to the inflict substitution... add the (noncore) "reach spell" feat.. Actually, Reach spell can be found in the divine feats section of the SRD (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/divineFeats.html). :plotting:
Ravashack 01-14-06, 02:59 AM	Made my first ever psionic character. Comments? Anton (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8228087) I don't recommend Defensive Precognition unless your goal is to have a high AC in general. It's too expensive to rely on that for AC bumps. Mind Thrust is ok now, but to be honest you may end up finding that it stinks later. Did you get it because you didn't want to have to aim the rays from Crystal Shard or Energy Ray? Also, are you planning on dealing your damage primarily through powers or primarily through attacking? You're kind of split both ways. If you're planning on primarily attacking, you don't need Enlarge Power. Actually, you don't need Enlarge Power period. If you're planning on doing it through powers you don't need Psionic Weapon. Wilders don't get a lot of feats to choose from, so you have to be careful with them. If you were trying to get the most out of each power point, Wild Surging 1 PP powers can really add up quickly unless you're unlucky. That's all I can really think of right now.
TelinArtho 01-14-06, 10:41 AM	Thanks for the comments. I don't think you'll ever see armor spikes on a character of mine - but it is a nice suggestion. I just don't like them... As to my power selection, I'm trying to make the character as diverse as possible with what I'm given. At 4th, I'll pick up an energy power for an attack power that can deal damage to mindless opponents (and perhaps affect better those who might be resistant to mind thrust). Same goes for the feats. Enlarge Power enables me to get a pretty good distance with Mind Thrust - perhaps enabling me to get 2 in before an opponent closes. Defensive Precognition is a nice buffing power to both touch and regular AC (which is always nice). Even if it is only +2 to AC for 2pp, that'll still be significant. I contemplated Force Screen, but it is unlikely I'll ever want to boost that up. My desire is to have only powers that benefit from Augmenting. Vigor was certainly a tempting choice and I might switch it out before my first fight. As to whether I want to do damage with powers or in melee is actually part of what I'm trying to address with the build. I want him to be accomplished no matter the situation. So he's going to be a force to be reckoned with in melee, he's going to be a force at range hopefully as well. Hence the reason for Psionic Weapon. Later on, I suspect most of my feats will be for expanded knowledge. I am contemplating Astral Construct and Expansion for these at the least because they fill in holes in the character's abilities (mainly for people who are flying and to become a better melee character). Thanks for all of the comments. Like I said - this is my first psionic character - so I'm just trying out a few things.
Ravashack 01-14-06, 01:40 PM	I see Telin. The main issue with Mind Thrust when you use it is that it is riskier than Crystal Shard or Energy Ray because the damage will totally depend on if your opponent has a decent will save or not. Ego Whip for later is better than Mind Thrust for now because the people you will want to use Mind Thrust on will usually have Charisma as a dump stat anyway; if they save you still make progress on knocking out their Charisma and if they don't save they're screwed because they get dazed, basically letting you take your time whipping them unconscious. Plus it's medium range so it gives you breather room. The issue with Enlarge Power on the other hand is that the arena is small enough for you to hit virtually anywhere in it with Long Range powers later. It'll probably be useful now and then become a dead feat later, with the only unknown being how much later later really is. Oh, right. Are you planning on using Metapsionics or Psionic Weapon a lot? If you are, it's a good idea to get 13 Wisdom so that you can qualify for the Psionic Meditation feat at level 6, unless you don't care about regaining Psionic Focus taking a full round action instead of a move action.
MindWandererB 01-14-06, 04:00 PM	Hi ho, back from vacation, and man does this board move fast. Here's my catch-up post so far. Hi all, I'm considering building a new character to replace Rebreg. I want this new character to be the greatest grapple build possable at all levels. So the question is how to pull this off.I've contemplated this myself. The +1/lvl BAB is pretty important, but there are other ways to get important boosts. Half-Giant is critical, being +4 grapple for 1 level. One level of monk, to get Improved Grapple, is good, but it costs you a full point of BAB and an eventual XP penalty, so the optimal way to go would be to take Improved Grapple (and Improved Unarmed Strike) with your normal allotment of feats. Then you want to go Psychic Warrior for a while to pick up Expansion and Grip of Iron. I recommend 9 levels to get the Huge plus increased duration augmentations. Other good powers include Painful Strike, Strength of My Enemy, and Empathic Feedback. Then go with a full BAB class (Barbarian is good) for your remaining levels. ECL 20 Grapple check=40+base Str+carrier effects, with everything running. Edit: I'm strongly contemplating replacing Bolrak with a similar, but somewhat more versatile character. So don't be surprised if I follow my own suggestions in the coming week or two. Re: the new Court Decisions: I have a few issues. ·Psionic Weapon/Psionic Fist: I see the issue has not been addressed at all. That Psionic Weapon does not work with normal unarmed strikes was never under debate, that I know of. The issues of monk unarmed strikes is unresolved. My opinion is that the Court Decisions should add the text "Monks, and only monks, with Psionic Weapon can use it with their unarmed strikes as a benefit of their class feature that allows them to treat their unarmed strikes as if they were manufactured weapons." ·Lycanthrope hybrid flight: From the SRD: "Speed: Same as the base creature or base animal, depending on which form the lycanthrope is using. Hybrids use the base creature’s speed." It seems pretty clear that hybrid lycans cannot fly, nor can they climb, burrow or swim. See the Wererat for an example; it can climb in rat form but not in hybrid form. ·Pearls of Power: While I agree with this ruling, I'm not sure where it came from. The discussion was inconclusive last time I checked, and I can't find anything better in the Tavern. ·Mounts and Combat Riding: From the SRD: "Warhorses and riding dogs are already trained to bear riders into combat, and they don’t require any additional training for this purpose." Does that mean they have the Combat Riding package automatically, or was this line overlooked? ·Can powers with a range of personal be placed in crawling tattoos?: The full, correct answer is the following quote from the SRD: "Like a psionic tattoo, a crawling tattoo can be scribed only with a power of no higher than 3rd level that targets one or more creatures. Exceptions are the body adjustment power, which can be scribed even though it affects only the manifester, and telepathy (compulsion) powers, which cannot be scribed at all." Also, two questions: Did the community ever come to a decision about whether armor can be divested before a fight starts? And did it ever come to a decision about whether Deep Crystal weapons cost +1000 gp or +1300 gp (for being masterwork)?
Rousseau 01-14-06, 06:36 PM	I've contemplated this myself. The +1/lvl BAB is pretty important, but there are other ways to get important boosts. Half-Giant is critical, being +4 grapple for 1 level. One level of monk, to get Improved Grapple, is good, but it costs you a full point of BAB and an eventual XP penalty, so the optimal way to go would be to take Improved Grapple (and Improved Unarmed Strike) with your normal allotment of feats. Then you want to go Psychic Warrior for a while to pick up Expansion and Grip of Iron. I recommend 9 levels to get the Huge plus increased duration augmentations. Other good powers include Painful Strike, Strength of My Enemy, and Empathic Feedback. Then go with a full BAB class (Barbarian is good) for your remaining levels. ECL 20 Grapple check=40+base Str+carrier effects, with everything running.I'm interested in a similar build, but just to make sure I understand: You're suggesting a half-giant psychic warrior 9/barbarian 10 by ECL 20? Your discussion of the +1 BAB/level at the beginning threw me off when you started talking about taking 9 levels of psychic warrior. :) On another note, while I've read the Rules of Gladius, I was wondering about how difficult/easy/fun/whatever others found being a Pitlord, especially since Pitlording seems like one of the main ways to gain these mystical credits (and how else will I get to play a giant?). I guess I'm looking for any comments people have on the role, rather than whatever the FAQ says. Thanks!
Mal-2 01-14-06, 06:46 PM	On another note, while I've read the Rules of Gladius, I was wondering about how difficult/easy/fun/whatever others found being a Pitlord, especially since Pitlording seems like one of the main ways to gain these mystical credits (and how else will I get to play a giant?). I guess I'm looking for any comments people have on the role, rather than whatever the FAQ says. Thanks! First, you can play a half-giant without any credits (but not a full giant). Half giants are EL +1, so you could start a character as a Half-Giant Monk 2 (or whatever) and be ECL 3. As to pitlording, I don't really care for it. I'm only on my second week doing them, so these are only my first impressions, but fights take me an awfully long time. I've been working on my current fight for 6 hours on and off, and am only on round four. I think part of my problem is I keep getting distracted by looking everything up and trying to figure out what the characters should do when reality and their tactics meet. I know other people get things done much more quickly, so your experience may not be the same as mine! I suggest you give it a try if you're interested and see how you like it.
Vathelokai 01-14-06, 06:53 PM	Re: the new Court Decisions: I have a few issues. ·Psionic Weapon/Psionic Fist: I see the issue has not been addressed at all. That Psionic Weapon does not work with normal unarmed strikes was never under debate, that I know of. The issues of monk unarmed strikes is unresolved. My opinion is that the Court Decisions should add the text "Monks, and only monks, with Psionic Weapon can use it with their unarmed strikes as a benefit of their class feature that allows them to treat their unarmed strikes as if they were manufactured weapons."Right now Prisonlords is looking tallying the votes on it. Nothing official yet. ·Lycanthrope hybrid flight: From the SRD: "Speed: Same as the base creature or base animal, depending on which form the lycanthrope is using. Hybrids use the base creature’s speed." It seems pretty clear that hybrid lycans cannot fly, nor can they climb, burrow or swim. See the Wererat for an example; it can climb in rat form but not in hybrid form.I PMed the same thing to prisonlords; seems back in the day, Elder Tellish said that in hybrid form you get to keep your wings (see the link in Cerebus13's proto-FAQ (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7637707)). However the question was about if you get to keep the fly speed. It seems there is still some confusion about it. ·Pearls of Power: While I agree with this ruling, I'm not sure where it came from. The discussion was inconclusive last time I checked, and I can't find anything better in the Tavern. Well before the argument started, Cat said this on page 69 of the tavern. That was the last thing he said about it, and it seems that is the ruling. I still think it's rediculous, and there should be some rule that says "if there is a 10+ page arguement in the Tavern, there will be a vote." ·Mounts and Combat Riding: From the SRD: "Warhorses and riding dogs are already trained to bear riders into combat, and they don’t require any additional training for this purpose." Does that mean they have the Combat Riding package automatically, or was this line overlooked? There was a vote on this back in the day and (unless I'm mistaken) it was ruled that warhorses/wardogs have the tricks of the combat riding package. ·Can powers with a range of personal be placed in crawling tattoos?: The full, correct answer is the following quote from the SRD: "Like a psionic tattoo, a crawling tattoo can be scribed only with a power of no higher than 3rd level that targets one or more creatures. Exceptions are the body adjustment power, which can be scribed even though it affects only the manifester, and telepathy (compulsion) powers, which cannot be scribed at all."This was another unresolved 10+ page arguement. I never saw a ruling; just saw NiQil throw a lot people in prison for it. Also, another question: Did the community ever come to a decision about whether armor can be divested before a fight starts?Nope
NiQil 01-14-06, 06:58 PM	Re: the new Court Decisions: I have a few issues. ·Psionic Weapon/Psionic Fist: I see the issue has not been addressed at all. That Psionic Weapon does not work with normal unarmed strikes was never under debate, that I know of. The issues of monk unarmed strikes is unresolved. My opinion is that the Court Decisions should add the text "Monks, and only monks, with Psionic Weapon can use it with their unarmed strikes as a benefit of their class feature that allows them to treat their unarmed strikes as if they were manufactured weapons." The issue was reopened for discussion here, and I am still waiting for more people to comment on it before I make a decision. As I said in the original post here, if no clear concensus comes through, the current ruling will stand. ·Lycanthrope hybrid flight: From the SRD: "Speed: Same as the base creature or base animal, depending on which form the lycanthrope is using. Hybrids use the base creature’s speed." It seems pretty clear that hybrid lycans cannot fly, nor can they climb, burrow or swim. See the Wererat for an example; it can climb in rat form but not in hybrid form. Your quote with regard to speed isn't really relevant to the issue. The answer listed in the Court Decisions is also a paranthetical quote from the SRD, and seems to apply to a much greater degree. Especially since, by your quote, if the speed is the same as the base creature or animal, and the base animal has a fly speed, then that would mean that hybrids *can fly. ·Pearls of Power: While I agree with this ruling, I'm not sure where it came from. The discussion was inconclusive last time I checked, and I can't find anything better in the Tavern. This ruling was the original ruling that Cat made that sparked the discussion. It is posted in the Tavern. Since the DM made the ruling, only he can overturn it. ·Mounts and Combat Riding: From the SRD: "Warhorses and riding dogs are already trained to bear riders into combat, and they don’t require any additional training for this purpose." Does that mean they have the Combat Riding package automatically, or was this line overlooked? This means that they come pretrained with the Combat Riding package, which uses all of the 6 tricks they are allowed to learn with a 2 Int. ·Can powers with a range of personal be placed in crawling tattoos?: The full, correct answer is the following quote from the SRD: "Like a psionic tattoo, a crawling tattoo can be scribed only with a power of no higher than 3rd level that targets one or more creatures. Exceptions are the body adjustment power, which can be scribed even though it affects only the manifester, and telepathy (compulsion) powers, which cannot be scribed at all." This is not going to be added, because this quote is what sparked the whole controversy to begin with. A clear, consise answer is what was required in this situation. Also, another question: Did the community ever come to a decision about whether armor can be divested before a fight starts? As it stands, yes, you are allowed to swap equipment from home when writing tactics. Until that changes in some way, this is how it will be handled. I'll add this to the Decisions post when I update it next, so that it is in black and white.
NiQil 01-14-06, 07:03 PM	Right now Prisonlords is looking tallying the votes on it. Nothing official yet. I PMed the same thing to prisonlords; seems back in the day, Elder Tellish said that in hybrid form you get to keep your wings (see the link in Cerebus13's proto-FAQ (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7637707)). However the question was about if you get to keep the fly speed. It seems there is still some confusion about it. Well before the argument started, Cat said this on page 69 of the tavern. That was the last thing he said about it, and it seems that is the ruling. I still think it's rediculous, and there should be some rule that says "if there is a 10+ page arguement in the Tavern, there will be a vote." There was a vote on this back in the day and (unless I'm mistaken) it was ruled that warhorses/wardogs have the tricks of the combat riding package. This was another unresolved 10+ page arguement. I never saw a ruling; just saw NiQil throw a lot people in prison for it. Nope The personal power/tattoo issue was actually the first issue I ruled on as Prisonlord. Thought I doubt I could find the post for you. The hybrid thing was something I reviewed when you sent your PM to Prisonlords. The paranthetical quote in the Court Decisions is what I used to base the decision from. Again, if there is enough parties that would like an issue reopened for discussion, send a PM to Prisonlords about it, and I'll review it.
nightbanegod 01-14-06, 07:06 PM	important question... for an adamantine weapon does the +3000 cost get doubled as well if you are crafting a large weapon vs a medium weapon... the weapon in question is a large flail... under the description of costs in the PHB it says double the price for the weapon for large weapons.. but is the adamaintine bonus in addition to the price of the base weapon or cumulative ... ???
MindWandererB 01-14-06, 07:07 PM	The issue was reopened for discussion here, and I am still waiting for more people to comment on it before I make a decision. As I said in the original post here, if no clear concensus comes through, the current ruling will stand.But the current ruling doesn't answer the question. Unarmed strikes and a monk's unarmed strikes are qualitatively different. For instance, magic weapon applies to the latter but not the former. Your quote with regard to speed isn't really relevant to the issue. The answer listed in the Court Decisions is also a paranthetical quote from the SRD, and seems to apply to a much greater degree. Especially since, by your quote, if the speed is the same as the base creature or animal, and the base animal has a fly speed, then that would mean that hybrids *can fly.Not what the quote says. In hybrid form, the speed is the same as the base creature, not the base animal. Again, see the wererat for an example using a climb speed instead of a fly speed. By your ruling, the wererat in the MM is wrong. This is not going to be added, because this quote is what sparked the whole controversy to begin with. A clear, consise answer is what was required in this situation.In this case, conciseness is at the cost of accuracy. Body adjustment is specifically permitted, despite its range of Personal. As written, the judgment forbids a Crawling Tattoo of Body Adjustment. The RAW and the judgment are at odds.
nightbanegod 01-14-06, 07:19 PM	In this case, conciseness is at the cost of accuracy. Body adjustment is specifically permitted, despite its range of Personal. As written, the judgment forbids a Crawling Tattoo of Body Adjustment. The RAW and the judgment are at odds. ironically this is the same problem i have with readying a towershield for total cover.. as it is written that you can do that... go figure... gotta love a site that goes by the core rules .. then proceeds to bend them as needed... or toss em out if they dont agree.. but hey.. its still a place to play DnD to some extent...
Vathelokai 01-14-06, 07:19 PM	On another note, while I've read the Rules of Gladius, I was wondering about how difficult/easy/fun/whatever others found being a Pitlord, especially since Pitlording seems like one of the main ways to gain these mystical credits (and how else will I get to play a giant?). First off, here are the other ways to get credits Write fiction using characters from Gladius, or expanding the setting of Gladius. Most people base stories on fights, but you don't have to. Remember to PM Pitlords. Find errors on peoples character sheets and post them in the prison. Make maps and post them to the Maps thread. Remember to PM Pitlords. Run quests: Start off by going on a miniquest or two, so you get the idea down. Then DM (which is what pitlording is) quests for other players. Honestly, multiplayer quests are where the real credits are. Some people prefer this to running arena fights, since you can change strategy mid fight, and there is a RolePlay element. The problem with these is that only posting once per day can cause you to miss end of week deadlines. Send your picture and/or birthday to the Scribelords account. It's a one shot thing, but hey, credits is credits. Take over running a guild; This probably won't be an option, but if a guildlord drops out you might be able to get it. Occasionally Caterane/Pitlords will ask for help on some thing or another, and will throw out credits to whomever volunteers. Come up with something; Drakazar decided to make the "Pitlord template" thread and associated arenamap making program with no real prompting. S/He saw a problem and came up with a fix for it. I guess I'm looking for any comments people have on the role, rather than whatever the FAQ says. Thanks!That's a tough one. The first couple fights are tough and take forever; especially if you get two sneaky punks who don't actually want to fight. Even though there are templates and examples, you still have to come up with your own method of getting it done. On top of that, interpreting tactics can be a pain; I'm not pointing fingers because we all do it, but when people write tactics, sometimes the idea in their head dosn't end up on the page. This leads to "could you figure out what I meant by the theme of the tactics as a whole" arguements. Here's the straight story; if you pitlord you will put a lot of time into each fight, easily an afternoon. And odds are you will get into arguements, long ones. And you will spend a lot of time looking up rules, because everyone has a mistake or an unlabeled object on their sheet. If you cannot abide such things, then look into questlording. Pitlording does have it's benefits. You learn way more about the game; I mean a rediculous ammount about the game. I had no idea how many house rules I assumed were real rules. You learn what strategies work and what don't, unblockable combos, equipment arangements... I enjoy pitlording, but I can see why some people don't. I suggest you try it twice, because the first time is always a bizarre experience.
Vathelokai 01-14-06, 07:29 PM	The hybrid thing was something I reviewed when you sent your PM to Prisonlords. The paranthetical quote in the Court Decisions is what I used to base the decision from. Again, if there is enough parties that would like an issue reopened for discussion, send a PM to Prisonlords about it, and I'll review it. Q: If a character chose an animal template for Lycanthropy that had wings, would the character gain wings (and equivalent flight speed) when in Hybrid form? A: Yes. A lycanthrope uses either the base creature's or the base animal's statistics and special abilities and qualities in addition to those described in the template. “Lycanthrope” is a template that can be added to any humanoid or giant (referred to hereafter as the base creature)... The lycanthrope takes on the characteristics of some type of carnivorous or omnivorous creature of the animal type (referred to hereafter as the base animal)... Hybrids use the base creature’s speed.This seems pretty straight forward. What's the counter arguement? It also says that you change shape as though using polymorph; thus you get 'gross physical qualities' of the creature, such as wings. So a hybrid were-eagle would get wings, but not the ability to fly.
NiQil 01-14-06, 07:30 PM	ironically this is the same problem i have with readying a towershield for total cover.. as it is written that you can do that... go figure... gotta love a site that goes by the core rules .. then proceeds to bend them as needed... or toss em out if they dont agree.. but hey.. its still a place to play DnD to some extent... In this case, while you are correct that it is allowed by RAW, it is against a house rule. The house rule in question is there to prevent exactly the type of battles you would like to have...where the pitlord spends all their time moving everyone around with readied actions with no real fighting taking place. There is nothing preventing you from taking total cover...just readying to do so. No one will dispute that it is allowed by RAW...but it was near unanimous that it violated the "dodging an incoming attack" houserule. @ MindWanderer: I've added some clarifications to the issues you have concerns with, and I am also going to pass a ruling on the Fist/Weapon issue. The issue with the lycanthropes is probably going to get reopened next. Enough people have asked about it, and the info that is there is by no means decisive. I plan on posting the changes and decisions tomorrow or Monday...or maybe tonight if I get real ambitious...so keep an eye out for Prisonlord posts.
NiQil 01-14-06, 07:48 PM	important question... for an adamantine weapon does the +3000 cost get doubled as well if you are crafting a large weapon vs a medium weapon... the weapon in question is a large flail... under the description of costs in the PHB it says double the price for the weapon for large weapons.. but is the adamaintine bonus in addition to the price of the base weapon or cumulative ... ??? Though I have no immediate quotes to back this up as I do not have time to look, I would assume that the adamantine cost doubles as well, due to requiring more raw materials to manufacture a larger weapon. I believe this is similar to how you get barding for large creatures from special materials as well. But again, until I have time to research it, I can't say with any degree of certainty.
Vathelokai 01-14-06, 08:08 PM	important question... for an adamantine weapon does the +3000 cost get doubled as well if you are crafting a large weapon vs a medium weapon... the weapon in question is a large flail... under the description of costs in the PHB it says double the price for the weapon for large weapons.. but is the adamaintine bonus in addition to the price of the base weapon or cumulative ... ??? On page 217 of the DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide, it states that “the cost of the masterwork quality and any magical enhancement remains the same” regardless of a creature’s unusual size or shape. Adamantine and mithral both state that items made from such material are masterwork quality and the masterwork cost is part of the material cost listed. How much would a set of mithral chainmail barding for my warhorse cost? A strict reading of the rules indicates that in such a case the masterwork cost for armor should be subtracted from the special material price before applying the multiplier for any unusual size or shape of the intended wearer. For example, according to the Armor for Unusual Creatures chart on page 123 of the Player’s Handbook, a set of chainmail barding for a warhorse (a Large nonhumanoid creature) would normally cost 600 gp (four times the normal cost of 150 gp). A set of mithral chainmail barding would cost 16,000 gp: 600 gp for the chainmail barding plus 15,400 gp (the cost of mithral medium armor [4,000 gp], minus the masterwork cost for armor [150 gp], times 4). From this I would guess you have to pay extra.
MindWandererB 01-14-06, 08:42 PM	Sunstroke (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8233659&postcount=643) has arrived in the city, covered in steel and spoiling for a fight. Criticism, error checking, and any other feedback is welcomed. I'm going to be suspending Bolrak indefinitely; his weaknesses (like an utter inability to deal with good ranged combatants) will only grow larger and larger as time goes by (although I do regret not getting the 8d8 unarmed damage that he would have hit, eventually), plus Ivangar the Exile is virtually identical (but more successful!), so I can just watch him go. I'm hoping a more versatile character, with some of the same strengths but fewer weaknesses, will prove more successful. I would have brought Sunstroke out earlier, but, lacking invisibility, he'll do worse in AvAs than Bolrak. I've added some clarifications to the issues you have concerns with, and I am also going to pass a ruling on the Fist/Weapon issue.You have? I can't find any changes.
NiQil 01-14-06, 09:49 PM	Sunstroke (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8233659&postcount=643) has arrived in the city, covered in steel and spoiling for a fight. Criticism, error checking, and any other feedback is welcomed. I'm going to be suspending Bolrak indefinitely; his weaknesses (like an utter inability to deal with good ranged combatants) will only grow larger and larger as time goes by (although I do regret not getting the 8d8 unarmed damage that he would have hit, eventually), plus Ivangar the Exile is virtually identical (but more successful!), so I can just watch him go. I'm hoping a more versatile character, with some of the same strengths but fewer weaknesses, will prove more successful. I would have brought Sunstroke out earlier, but, lacking invisibility, he'll do worse in AvAs than Bolrak. You have? I can't find any changes. I should clarify....I have an offline file I keep for the Court Decisions, and the changes have been added there...they will most likely be posted in the next day or two.
Cerebus13 01-14-06, 11:40 PM	This ruling was the original ruling that Cat made that sparked the discussion. It is posted in the Tavern. Since the DM made the ruling, only he can overturn it.Why can't a widely argued and discussed topic like this be put to vote? A lot of people would be disgruntled with this decision if they knew it even existed. For something so influencial to a lot of builds using Pearls of Power, if a veto is going to be made it needs to be published in a visible spot for everyone to see and review. I repeat one more time though: topics such as this should be voted on by more than one person. When so many people are split on the way to decide this I do not think it is fair to allow it to be left up to a single person. (I'll probably be ignored on this but eh....someday maybe we'll be more of a democracy). Edit: LLMadCow had a completely different idea on how to handle this having to do with the idea that all spellcasters must have correct amount of spell levels spent/unspent in a fight. So a caster with 9 spell levels total has 6 for pre-buffs, 3 for battles...and Pearls of Power can restore spell levels to battle SLs if a spell is used and the Pearl is of the corresponding level. In any event, if another Elder even opposes this current ruling....shouldn't it be put to some sort of vote?
Luni 01-14-06, 11:47 PM	Why can't a widely argued and discussed topic like this be put to vote? A lot of people would be disgruntled with this decision if they knew it even existed. For something so influencial to a lot of builds using Pearls of Power, if a veto is going to be made it needs to be published in a visible spot for everyone to see and review. I repeat one more time though: topics such as this should be voted on by more than one person. When so many people are split on the way to decide this I do not think it is fair to allow it to be left up to a single person. (I'll probably be ignored on this but eh....someday maybe we'll be more of a democracy). Are you suggest we overthrow the Emperor Cat, and replace it with a democratically elected systems of Elders? All joking aside, I think Caterane does come across as too bossy sometimes. I think the entire Core Coliseum needs to be readjusted to compensate for majority views.
NiQil 01-14-06, 11:55 PM	Why can't a widely argued and discussed topic like this be put to vote? A lot of people would be disgruntled with this decision if they knew it even existed. For something so influencial to a lot of builds using Pearls of Power, if a veto is going to be made it needs to be published in a visible spot for everyone to see and review. I repeat one more time though: topics such as this should be voted on by more than one person. When so many people are split on the way to decide this I do not think it is fair to allow it to be left up to a single person. (I'll probably be ignored on this but eh....someday maybe we'll be more of a democracy). Edit: LLMadCow had a completely different idea on how to handle this having to do with the idea that all spellcasters must have correct amount of spell levels spent/unspent in a fight. So a caster with 9 spell levels total has 6 for pre-buffs, 3 for battles...and Pearls of Power can restore spell levels to battle SLs if a spell is used and the Pearl is of the corresponding level. In any event, if another Elder even opposes this current ruling....shouldn't it be put to some sort of vote? Personally, I don't have a vote one way or another on the issue, because I rarely play casters. I can see both sides of the issue. That being said....I do agree that, for this issue, some sort of Elder vote would be best. However, ultimately, D&D plays by Rule 0....the DM is always right. That's the reason that I stated that since Cat made the ruling, only he can overturn it. Either by changing his own ruling, or by calling for an Elder vote and letting their decision stand as the ruling. I just recorded what the ruling is now. I would recommend that those that wish to see an Elder vote on the issue PM Cat about it. Bear in mind, however, that right now we have Elders MIA, so that may affect things.
Mal-2 01-15-06, 12:19 AM	Another rules question. Casting a full round spell from a scroll (Like summon monster) takes the normal full round casting time. As far as I can tell, the only way to do that is draw the scroll [Move Action], do some other Standard action, then next round, begin casting a full round spell from the scroll [Full Round Action]. Is that right? I thought there was a way to combine a Move and a Standard on different rounds to complete a full round spell, but I can't find it anywhere in the SRD. Did I imagine that? Is it maybe in some non-core book?
TelinArtho 01-15-06, 12:32 AM	Almost - you can start a full round action with a standard action, but in order to finish it you must spend another standard action. So it would work like this: Move action (Draw scroll) Standard action (start casting) Next round Standard action (finish casting - monster appears) Move action (do something - draw another scroll?)
Prisonlords 01-15-06, 12:37 AM	Everyone, I have made a decision on the Psionic Fist/Weapon issue after reviewing everyone's feedback on the issue, and the decision is as follows: Q: Can the Psionic Weapon feat be used to charge an unarmed strike for unarmed damage? A: Normally no, however monks are an exception to this rule, as their unarmed strikes are counted as manufactured weapons for the purposes of spells and effects. I hope this will put the issue to bed, but as always, if you would like an issue to be discussed further, send a PM Prisonlords and your request will be reviewed. That being said, I now have two more issues that I would like to open for discussion. The first is something that already has an entry in the Court Decisions: Q: If a character chose an animal template for Lycanthropy that had wings, would the character gain wings (and equivalent flight speed) when in Hybrid form? A: Yes. A lycanthrope uses either the base creature's or the base animal's statistics and special abilities and qualities in addition to those described in the template. The second is, at best, a sticky issue for many of us here, but one I feel needs to be set in black and white. The issue of whether monks are allowed to use the damage an opponent action in a grapple in combination with the number of attacks they receive in a flurry. Currently, as best as I can understand the RAW, in conjunction with how other grapple rules are used here, the interpretation I have come with is as follows: 1) Monks may grapple, using the damage an opponent action, as many times as their [b]BAB[/] allows them to, just like any other class. As an example, a level 7 monk would be able to use the damage an opponent action 1 time, while a level 8 monk would be able to use it 2 times. 2) Monks may attack, using the attack an opponent action, in combination with a flurry for as many attacks as their flurry allows, taking both the -4 penalty for using the attack an opponent action in a grapple as well as any penalties associated with flurrying (depending on the level of monk) in combination. As an example, a 3rd level monk would be able to use the attack an opponent action with a flurry at a total -6 penalty to the attack roll (-4 + -2 flurry). A 5th level monk would be able to perform the same action with a total -5 penalty, and a 9th level monk would perform the same action at a -4 penalty. This is, as far as I can tell, how the RAW and Rules of the Game articles indicate this should work. However, this is just my interpretation, and thus why I would like a discussion on the issue. Please feel free to respond to one or both of the issues, and provide any evidence you have. Results on these issues will be announced at a later date.
Mal-2 01-15-06, 12:42 AM	Almost - you can start a full round action with a standard action, but in order to finish it you must spend another standard action. I see it now, thank you. I'm not sure how I missed that when I was specifically looking for it. Oh well, back to editing the fight.
Cerebus13 01-15-06, 01:02 AM	Personally, I don't have a vote one way or another on the issue, because I rarely play casters. I can see both sides of the issue. That being said....I do agree that, for this issue, some sort of Elder vote would be best. However, ultimately, D&D plays by Rule 0....the DM is always right. That's the reason that I stated that since Cat made the ruling, only he can overturn it. Either by changing his own ruling, or by calling for an Elder vote and letting their decision stand as the ruling. I just recorded what the ruling is now. I would recommend that those that wish to see an Elder vote on the issue PM Cat about it. Bear in mind, however, that right now we have Elders MIA, so that may affect things.Rule 0 is all fine and good when you are dealing with a typical group of people, perhaps 5 to 7 of them. The CoCo is made up of I'd say between 30 to 40 people. Is it fair that our voices and opinions seem to hold little weight when this Rule 0 is invoked? ------ The results of people's voting on the Monk's Flurry during a Grapple is up in the vote thread. The results were rather close (3 more for being able to use Flurry for more grapple options I believe), so it is a pretty split issue with the community. I abstained from voting but my personal opinion is to just let Monks get the extra boost for grappling. We don't have an overflowing amount of them in the CoCo currently, so I don't any problem with giving them the extra help in battle. Others have made more convincing arguments than this, so let that influence your decision more.
NiQil 01-15-06, 01:19 AM	Rule 0 is all fine and good when you are dealing with a typical group of people, perhaps 5 to 7 of them. The CoCo is made up of I'd say between 30 to 40 people. Is it fair that our voices and opinions seem to hold little weight when this Rule 0 is invoked? I'm not really sure why you seem to want to take this issue out on me, when all I have done is explain why the ruling is the way it is. I already stated that I agreed that a vote was probably in order. Whether Cat chooses to do that or not is up to him. Whether he chooses to hear our opinions or not is up to him. Is it fair? Probably not. But has Rule 0 ever been fair to the players? Not really. I mentioned this because, contrary to popular opinion, D&D is ultimately a dictatorship. Yes, it would be nice if the whole community has a say in issue, but ultimately, Cat, in the position of DM, is under no obligation to consult us when making changes. Will that hurt the boards if that is done repeatedly? Most definitely. But only one person can change it, and I'm not that person. You should be having this conversation with Cat, not me.
Cerebus13 01-15-06, 02:18 AM	I'm not really sure why you seem to want to take this issue out on me, when all I have done is explain why the ruling is the way it is. I already stated that I agreed that a vote was probably in order. Whether Cat chooses to do that or not is up to him. Whether he chooses to hear our opinions or not is up to him. Is it fair? Probably not. But has Rule 0 ever been fair to the players? Not really. I mentioned this because, contrary to popular opinion, D&D is ultimately a dictatorship. Yes, it would be nice if the whole community has a say in issue, but ultimately, Cat, in the position of DM, is under no obligation to consult us when making changes. Will that hurt the boards if that is done repeatedly? Most definitely. But only one person can change it, and I'm not that person. You should be having this conversation with Cat, not me.I take it up with you because you co-run the Prisonlords account, and have some sort of authority around here. If you don't care then I won't bother you.
NiQil 01-15-06, 02:28 AM	I take it up with you because you co-run the Prisonlords account, and have some sort of authority around here. If you don't care then I won't bother you. Don't mistake me...I do care. I've already mentioned several of these issues to Cat....I even proposed making a new "lordship" to help deal with some of these things. But I don't have any control over the situation. All of the issues you are bringing to the table can only be changed by Cat himself. I have no more authority than you do in that regard. Which is why I stated that you should be having this conversation with Cat. He's the only one that can change the things to which you have (rightfully) taken issue.
Cerebus13 01-15-06, 02:52 AM	Don't mistake me...I do care. I've already mentioned several of these issues to Cat....I even proposed making a new "lordship" to help deal with some of these things. But I don't have any control over the situation. All of the issues you are bringing to the table can only be changed by Cat himself. I have no more authority than you do in that regard. Which is why I stated that you should be having this conversation with Cat. He's the only one that can change the things to which you have (rightfully) taken issue.Sorry if I come off as being rather abrasive, but that seems to be the best way to get a little attention to an important subject. If I look like a jerk then so be it...I'm trying to encourage some more colorful discussion other than rules debate.
MindWandererB 01-15-06, 01:34 PM	I just came across this rather alarming entry in the errata for the XPH:Page 181: Creating Dorjes The example at the end of the second paragraph is incorrect and should read as follows: . . . If you wanted to make a dorje of energy missile with a manifester level of 8th (five higher than the minimum), you would pay for the creation of the dorje as if energy missile was a 5th-level power.This implies that if you have an item with a power augmented by an odd number of levels, you round up, not down. If this rule generalizes to other items, many of our existing items are problematic (such as the many items with VigorA [2]).
TelinArtho 01-15-06, 02:21 PM	Take Ariel vs Noko. I surrendered with Ariel, only because I didn't see any way to win. Notes: Clerics don't ever get access to see invisibilty. Invisibility Purge is useless against a Pixie player who remembers to stay out of reach. True Seeing is level 5 spell, and with the restrictions to buying scrolls of higher ECL, hard to get. Clerics first Area of Effect spell is level 5. And also, probably won't work against a pixie rogue. Since you can't counterspell SLA, gambling that my opponent won't dispel Air Walk seems a silly waste of money. If anyone saw good winning tactics for Ariel to beat Noko, feel free to let me know. Just a couple of quick comments Luni - it isn't as hopeless as you make it out to be - depending on the cleric. First of all, clerics should have a pretty high AC (even without dex) - either from nice armor or a combination of decent armor and some defensive spells (shield of faith at CL7 for instance). So if the pixie is just going to peg you with arrows - a good deal of them should miss. Since you are a cleric - ideally you'll have some healing too. As to area affect spells - I disagree. Sound Burst at SL2 is an excellent spell - short range - but still excellent. Invisibility purge prevents the pixie from trying sneak attacks and if it does come in - sound burst him. Blindness is nice as well if they come into range of the purge. At SL4 - if you are a cleric of an alignment - you have another area effect spell: Unholy Blight/etc - which is a great spell against pixies since they have a specific alignment usually. I think effective tactics against a Pixie is purely to outlast their arrows - expecially if you can force them to use it against some summons or something similar. Now obviously, all of this kind of assumes that you have the spells prepared ahead of time. I think they are good to have around - but I would also add in that at this level, you should have some ways of defeating at least cold iron/silver damage reduction at least in the form of bolts.
Luni 01-15-06, 03:34 PM	Just a couple of quick comments Luni - it isn't as hopeless as you make it out to be - depending on the cleric. First of all, clerics should have a pretty high AC (even without dex) - either from nice armor or a combination of decent armor and some defensive spells (shield of faith at CL7 for instance). So if the pixie is just going to peg you with arrows - a good deal of them should miss. Since you are a cleric - ideally you'll have some healing too. As to area affect spells - I disagree. Sound Burst at SL2 is an excellent spell - short range - but still excellent. Invisibility purge prevents the pixie from trying sneak attacks and if it does come in - sound burst him. Blindness is nice as well if they come into range of the purge. At SL4 - if you are a cleric of an alignment - you have another area effect spell: Unholy Blight/etc - which is a great spell against pixies since they have a specific alignment usually. I think effective tactics against a Pixie is purely to outlast their arrows - expecially if you can force them to use it against some summons or something similar. Now obviously, all of this kind of assumes that you have the spells prepared ahead of time. I think they are good to have around - but I would also add in that at this level, you should have some ways of defeating at least cold iron/silver damage reduction at least in the form of bolts. Your right of course. I didn't come in fully prepared. :) Barring that, with Noko's high hide/move silently, willingness to stay 35' off the gound, meant that even with AE spells, I'd have a tough time trying to spot her. Unfortunately, I never took the Evil, Good, Law, or Chaos domain. :)
Elephant Jack 01-16-06, 09:48 AM	Hi@all! I was just flipping through the Rules of Gladius and I've got a rules question: How do I calculate the ECL of an afflicted (insert small humanoid race) were-cat (or anything with animal HD<1)? EJ
Pitlords 01-16-06, 10:27 AM	New Rules addition to the Guild Rules: Structure Limitations: A District can only hold one Structure from each Trait. So if you build a Merchant Cart (Economy), you cannot also build a Depository (Economy) or a Landing (Economy), nor can any other Guild in that District. A Bookstore (Education) would be completely fine, though, if there isn't already another Education Structure. Additionally, every guild may only have one kind of each Structure in Gladius. For example, if a guild has a Merchant Cart, it cannot build another Merchant Cart in the city, although it could upgrade the existing Merchant Cart to a Bazaar and then build a new Merchant Cart. This does not affect other guilds so if your guild has a Merchant Cart, other guilds can also build one (and only one).
bgt 01-16-06, 11:20 AM	I have a fluffy question: Is there a map of the area surrounding the coliseum? Specifically I'm looking for a nearby mountain range. Thanks in advance!
TelinArtho 01-16-06, 11:49 AM	Check the World of Gladius thread (link can be found in the first post of the Rules thread).
Pitlords 01-16-06, 12:33 PM	A new mercenary has arrived in Gladius: Hauber Bulwark's past memories and his newfound purpose will surely benefit many gladiators. He is available now. Thanks to the Magister for providing us with this cleric. +2°.
Warclone 01-16-06, 02:23 PM	I have a question: When measuring distance for listen checks or spell ranges, do diagonals still count double? Or is that only for movement?
TelinArtho 01-16-06, 02:30 PM	Measuring Distance Diagonals: When measuring distance, the first diagonal counts as 1 square, the second counts as 2 squares, the third counts as 1, the fourth as 2, and so on. You can’t move diagonally past a corner (even by taking a 5-foot step). You can move diagonally past a creature, even an opponent. You can also move diagonally past other impassable obstacles, such as pits. Closest Creature: When it’s important to determine the closest square or creature to a location, if two squares or creatures are equally close, randomly determine which one counts as closest by rolling a die. Although it can be misleading to think that this only applies for movement, the measuring distance section is actually for all measurements of distance. And to be precise, diagonals don't cost double - they are at 3/2 as compared to moving straight. You could measure the distance according to the pythagorean theorem as well - but the 3/2 calculation is usually close enough to work with (and a fair bit quicker for me anyway).
Warclone 01-16-06, 02:39 PM	Thanks for the info. In tabletop, counting is quicker, however, when PLing I find the pythagorean theorum faster.
Warclone 01-16-06, 08:20 PM	Do you guys think that players should be forced to bring into a fight what is on their equipment list and prohibited what is on their at home list? It sometimes becomes easy to fake-out an opponent and have your enemy write tactics completely irrelevant to the fight depending on what you bring and what you take home.
Snommelp 01-16-06, 08:25 PM	Do you guys think that players should be forced to bring into a fight what is on their equipment list and prohibited what is on their at home list? It sometimes becomes easy to fake-out an opponent and have your enemy write tactics completely irrelevant to the fight depending on what you bring and what you take home. As I've said before, if this swapping were meant to be allowed, there would not be two separate sections for equipment. Others may say things about characters logically being able to go home and change their clothes, or argue about how if they can't buy items they shouldn't be able to change their equipment, but that is my only argument, and I feel it is a compelling one. If the arena was intended to allow swapping, there would only be one equipment section.
NiQil 01-16-06, 08:34 PM	As I've said before, if this swapping were meant to be allowed, there would not be two separate sections for equipment. Others may say things about characters logically being able to go home and change their clothes, or argue about how if they can't buy items they shouldn't be able to change their equipment, but that is my only argument, and I feel it is a compelling one. If the arena was intended to allow swapping, there would only be one equipment section. Seconded
lonewolf 01-16-06, 08:35 PM	I know its a bit late, but is anyone up to questlording Karen Douglas on a ECL5 Quest to find Taliric texts (as prerequesite to enter the Warmind PrC) this week?
Mal-2 01-16-06, 08:35 PM	As I've said before, if this swapping were meant to be allowed, there would not be two separate sections for equipment. The rebuttal to that is that if it wasn't allowed, our GM wouldn't do it. But since he does...
Luni 01-16-06, 08:49 PM	Can always convince Cat otherwise. Advice needed: Can anyone think of gear I could equip Imperi (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7307744) with? I'm not overly familiar with psionics, but I can't hink of anything that I need.
DSugui 01-16-06, 09:14 PM	I'm new to CoCo, so I stoped by to say hi. I hope I can have great fights here, everyone looks so strong. So, that's all for now, see ya in the Arena...
Mal-2 01-16-06, 09:22 PM	Can always convince Cat otherwise. Oh, well, that I agree with. I'm just saying that the current ruling is that you are allowed to switch out gear before a match. I don't see it as a big deal, but I've never had to pitlord a character that changed out thier gear signifigantly before a fight.
SauroGrenom 01-16-06, 10:36 PM	I've a quick question. If you are taking a multiclass xp penalty, then that applies only to XP earned right? Does it apply to GP earned?
Erithmu 01-16-06, 10:49 PM	I've a quick question. If you are taking a multiclass xp penalty, then that applies only to XP earned right? Does it apply to GP earned? I'm 99% sure that it applies to gold as well to avoid abuse, I think if you look at Nexa's old fights you will find what you need to do, I'm pretty sure she is one of the few people that have that ... then again she also has "pets"
SauroGrenom 01-16-06, 10:56 PM	Double post!
SauroGrenom 01-16-06, 11:11 PM	Can always convince Cat otherwise. Advice needed: Can anyone think of gear I could equip Imperi (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7307744) with? I'm not overly familiar with psionics, but I can't hink of anything that I need. Looking at your sheet, I see that you plan on focusing on natural weapons and augmentations to those weapons. I see you already have dissolving touch and metaphysical claw. Perhaps you should get Claws of the Vampire and Claw of Energy and Duodimensional Claw. These can all be usefull. Vigor at ML4 costs 200gp but grants 20hp, very nice hp/gp ratio for a buff. Concealing Amorphia is usefull for gaining a miss chance from concealment. Painfull strike can grant you a little extra boost on damage for a small expense. Hostile Empathic transfer is good in a pinch when you are down in HP against a mounted opponent. Simply hit the mount's touch AC and be healed while draining the creature. Biofeedback is a nice little buff gaining DR2/- for only 25gp each time. Also consider Empathic Feedback, the psywarrior's version of flameshield. If you're going to focus on natural weapons consider Expansion. Many times your damage dice increase with the size of the creature, so get yourself a boost in damage and strength and all the other size factors by simply buffing with this power. ML3 Expansion lasts for 30minutes (augmented durration is edited in the errata). Other things to consider on equipement: Save up a little more money and buy Gloves of Titan's Grip. +8 on grapple checks and your fly speed as well as all your natural attacks could spell death for many opponents. Also the Third Eye's grant competence bonuses to things like concentration (regaining focus) and spot. Those may be usefull. Generally a psywarrior has a very limited number of powers that they can know. It is even more limited than a sorcerer. I try to choose powers that are maximally usefull when manifested by the character and of less utility when manifest from a stone or other source. An example is Grip of Iron. The durration is so short that it is mostly useless when manifest with a stone as a standard action. However it can be manifest as a swift action before a grapple. This could be usefull when manifest by the character from there own pp reserve. Other powers that are manifest as swift actions and are usefull include Burst, Empty Mind, Hustle, Psionic Lions Charge and Prowess.
Luni 01-16-06, 11:47 PM	Looking at your sheet, I see that you plan on focusing on natural weapons and augmentations to those weapons. I see you already have dissolving touch and metaphysical claw. Perhaps you should get Claws of the Vampire and Claw of Energy and Duodimensional Claw. These can all be usefull. Vigor at ML4 costs 200gp but grants 20hp, very nice hp/gp ratio for a buff. Concealing Amorphia is usefull for gaining a miss chance from concealment. Painfull strike can grant you a little extra boost on damage for a small expense. Hostile Empathic transfer is good in a pinch when you are down in HP against a mounted opponent. Simply hit the mount's touch AC and be healed while draining the creature. Biofeedback is a nice little buff gaining DR2/- for only 25gp each time. Also consider Empathic Feedback, the psywarrior's version of flameshield. If you're going to focus on natural weapons consider Expansion. Many times your damage dice increase with the size of the creature, so get yourself a boost in damage and strength and all the other size factors by simply buffing with this power. ML3 Expansion lasts for 30minutes (augmented durration is edited in the errata). Other things to consider on equipement: Save up a little more money and buy Gloves of Titan's Grip. +8 on grapple checks and your fly speed as well as all your natural attacks could spell death for many opponents. Also the Third Eye's grant competence bonuses to things like concentration (regaining focus) and spot. Those may be usefull. Generally a psywarrior has a very limited number of powers that they can know. It is even more limited than a sorcerer. I try to choose powers that are maximally usefull when manifested by the character and of less utility when manifest from a stone or other source. An example is Grip of Iron. The durration is so short that it is mostly useless when manifest with a stone as a standard action. However it can be manifest as a swift action before a grapple. This could be usefull when manifest by the character from there own pp reserve. Other powers that are manifest as swift actions and are usefull include Burst, Empty Mind, Hustle, Psionic Lions Charge and Prowess. Expansion wouldn't help much, due to the -2 to hit/ac from the lost size and dex. :) I've been considering Compression, and with a 32 AC, I'm not concerned about the AoO from entering people's squared. Other stuff noted though. Thanks.
NiQil 01-17-06, 12:15 AM	I've a quick question. If you are taking a multiclass xp penalty, then that applies only to XP earned right? Does it apply to GP earned? This is outlined in the Court Decisions post. To save you the time of looking: to avoid abuse, the penalty for multiclassing applies to both XP and gp earned in fights/quests/miniquests/campaigns.
MindWandererB 01-17-06, 01:22 AM	Aerryl's level 4 animal companion is going to be a dire bat. She's currently at 5900 XP, just 100 short of leveling. Since the restriction on miniquest CR's has been lifted, is it possible for her to miniquest for the bat now? If she succeeds, she'll level, and be qualified to take the bat as a companion. If she fails, she doesn't get the bat anyhow. It would be nice to get the bat as early as possible so I can finally start training the thing.
DTFarstar 01-17-06, 03:54 AM	I am, of course, not an Elder, but I shouldn't see why not. You wouldn't actually GAIN anything till the quest was over, and you would be technically leveled well before that. In fact, that would work well, do the 3 battles, level and as a part of rescueing the bat from something bond with it as your power in nature grows to new heights. Heck, I've never done a quest before, but that one sounds tempting. I love me some druids.
NiQil 01-17-06, 04:08 AM	Aerryl's level 4 animal companion is going to be a dire bat. She's currently at 5900 XP, just 100 short of leveling. Since the restriction on miniquest CR's has been lifted, is it possible for her to miniquest for the bat now? If she succeeds, she'll level, and be qualified to take the bat as a companion. If she fails, she doesn't get the bat anyhow. It would be nice to get the bat as early as possible so I can finally start training the thing. Bear in mind here, that questing for your animal companion is not required. You get this as a class ability, via a summoning ritual, so no questing is required. You just add it to your sheet at 4th level. That being said, if you do want to quest/miniquest for your animal companion, you would not be able to do so until you are actually eligible to receive it as a class skill, meaning you would want to do one more fight and level before you begin the quest/miniquest.
Usurpator 01-17-06, 05:16 AM	The rebuttal to that is that if it wasn't allowed, our GM wouldn't do it. But since he does... Well, the problem is that Cat is both a DM and a player, and from what I gather Cat does his best to find loopholes within the rules to create better characters and write better tactics. When you make many of the rules, this poses kind of a problem. In this case, either his rule makes no sense, or he violates them. Either option requires correction. What Cat does 'as a player' should be seen separate from his actions 'as a DM'. As a player he should be free to bend all the rules he want, as a DM he should be concerned with well-thought out, sensible and fair rules. Tactics and builds from Cat are not an alternative rules source, but they do give food for thought.
Sunwolf 01-17-06, 08:42 AM	Expansion wouldn't help much, due to the -2 to hit/ac from the lost size and dex. :) I've been considering Compression, and with a 32 AC, I'm not concerned about the AoO from entering people's squared. Other stuff noted though. Thanks. @Luni Imperi could probably make use of 2 magic rings. ring of deflection for more AC, featherfall ring, ring of fire resistance, etc. Have her wear them on her toes and they should remain in any shape :) Another thought is to consider an amulet of bodily health (+to con) for more hp as an option. Looking more long term -- psychoactive skins might be interesting for imperi. skin of the defender, and skin of fiery response are worth considering IMHO.
SauroGrenom 01-17-06, 09:03 AM	Expansion wouldn't help much, due to the -2 to hit/ac from the lost size and dex. :) I've been considering Compression, and with a 32 AC, I'm not concerned about the AoO from entering people's squared. Other stuff noted though. Thanks. You're right about Expansion causing a -2AC, but it is a net zero on the attack modifier. The strength increase is +2 and the size mod is -1, so they cancel basically. That is unless your using weapon finness like you are. That changes the attack mod to -2 as well.
Zevox 01-17-06, 10:07 AM	A quick query, if anyone knows - where might I find age categories for Half-Celestials/Fiends? I've been making one on whim lately, and intend on starting him once I have the credits (probably another month or two, but eh), and the only thing I'm as yet unsure of is what I wish his age to be. Are they (as full Outsider types) utterly immune to any effects from aging? Or do they (as only half-bloods) still have age categories and a maximum age? Any info would be much appreciated :) . Zevox
Myrridin 01-17-06, 10:13 AM	My guess, and that's exactly what this is, is that you'd take the base race's age catagories, and then apply the template on top of that. This of course is only in effect if they actually are able to age.
Zevox 01-17-06, 10:31 AM	My guess, and that's exactly what this is, is that you'd take the base race's age catagories, and then apply the template on top of that. This of course is only in effect if they actually are able to age. Thats what I'd assume as well, but the only problem is: what precisely would the template do to the age categories? I can't seem to find any reference to it anywhere. Zevox
DTFarstar 01-17-06, 12:11 PM	I have an interesting question, What classes have access to Use Psionic Device? I was thinking about making a rogue or bard with both, but I don't think it is possible, I may have to do like rogue 1/shaper 1/rogue 1 to get it to work, but I was wondering if I was missing a place where it might have gotten added onto any other skill lists.
Mal-2 01-17-06, 12:51 PM	I have an interesting question, What classes have access to Use Psionic Device? I was thinking about making a rogue or bard with both, but I don't think it is possible, I may have to do like rogue 1/shaper 1/rogue 1 to get it to work, but I was wondering if I was missing a place where it might have gotten added onto any other skill lists. As far as I know, the only two classes that get Use Psionic Device in class are Psions (Shapers only), and Elocaters.
DTFarstar 01-17-06, 12:55 PM	That's what I was afraid of. I was hoping someone knew of a loophole I didn't. *sigh*
Luni 01-17-06, 01:04 PM	I have an interesting question, What classes have access to Use Psionic Device? I was thinking about making a rogue or bard with both, but I don't think it is possible, I may have to do like rogue 1/shaper 1/rogue 1 to get it to work, but I was wondering if I was missing a place where it might have gotten added onto any other skill lists. Actually, there is an NPC class the expert that can pick any 10 skills as class skills. I was considering making one with UMD and UPD at one point.
MindWandererB 01-17-06, 01:31 PM	Bear in mind here, that questing for your animal companion is not required. You get this as a class ability, via a summoning ritual, so no questing is required. You just add it to your sheet at 4th level.Is this the official ruling? We had this discussion a little while ago, and it was still ambiguous due to the "unless otherwise stated" clause. Is the 24-hour ritual considered "otherwise stated?" If so, then I'll just take a normal match-up and pick up the bat that way. (Of course, since you're Prisonlord, I don't imagine I'll get jailed for doing it the way you suggest, right or wrong. I'll leave my character heading as "ready" unless something else comes up.)
Huan 01-17-06, 01:36 PM	There is a spell called 'Corrupt Weapon' (see Blackguard description) that is identical to Bless Weapon, only the weapon is evil-aligned temporarily. If a paladin were to use an Oil of Corrupt Weapon, would he break his paladin code? In other words, would using this oil be an 'Evil Act'? Its only a tool, and only what I plan to do with the weapon can be considered evil (suppose he needed the evil weapon to perform a goodly mission). I say no, just its mere usage does not violate the code, but I would appreciate a general concensus.
SoulLord 01-17-06, 01:38 PM	Can a Gladiator(s) who just lost a Creature Match Pay credits for a rematch next week? And if yes How much would it cost in credits for the Gladiator(s) involved?
Usurpator 01-17-06, 01:42 PM	There is a spell called 'Corrupt Weapon' (see Blackguard description) that is identical to Bless Weapon, only the weapon is evil-aligned temporarily. If a paladin were to use an Oil of Corrupt Weapon, would he break his paladin code? In other words, would using this oil be an 'Evil Act'? I say no (its only a tool, and only what I plan to do with the weapon can be considered evil), but I would appreciate a general concensus. A difficult question. If your character was in my campaign, undoubtedly yes. But here in the CoCo only spells that have the [evil] descriptor should be considered evil tools. That is the only clear guideline we got. If not that opens up a window to all kinds of morality arguments, and I'd rather not have that. Since bless weapon does not have the good descriptor, it is pretty safe to assume corrupt weapon does not have the evil descriptor. So go ahead.
Warclone 01-17-06, 02:06 PM	Can my shaper use a power stone of animal affinity by employing Use Psionic Item? If so, can he do it by emulating a class feature, or must he use the rules for using a power stone?Discipline Every psion must decide at 1st level which psionic discipline he will specialize in. Choosing a discipline provides a psion with access to the class skills associated with that discipline (see above), as well as the powers restricted to that discipline. However, choosing a discipline also means that the psion cannot learn powers that are restricted to other disciplines. He can’t even use such powers by employing psionic items. Usea Power Stone Normally, to manifest a power from a power stone, you must have the power stone’s power on your class power list. This use of the skill allows you to use a power stone as if you had a particular power on your class power list. The DC is equal to 20 + the manifester level of the power you are trying to manifest from the power stone. Note: Before you use a power stone, you must first have addressed it to determine what powers it contains. In addition, manifesting a power from a power stone requires a minimum score (10 + power level) in the appropriate ability. If you don’t have a high enough score, you must emulate the ability score with a separate check (see above). This use of the skill applies to other power completion psionic items. Emulate a Class Feature Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a psionic item. Your effective level in the emulated class equals your check result minus 20. This skill does not let you use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had the class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment as a separate check (see above).
MitzaVolchenko 01-17-06, 02:22 PM	There is a spell called 'Corrupt Weapon' (see Blackguard description) that is identical to Bless Weapon, only the weapon is evil-aligned temporarily. If a paladin were to use an Oil of Corrupt Weapon, would he break his paladin code? In other words, would using this oil be an 'Evil Act'? Its only a tool, and only what I plan to do with the weapon can be considered evil (suppose he needed the evil weapon to perform a goodly mission). I say no, just its mere usage does not violate the code, but I would appreciate a general concensus. Sorry darlin'...I'd go the other way on that one...you are intentionally placing an evil alignment on your blade. A paladin would not accept that as the only way to solve the problem. In effect you admit that there is something that requires evil to defeat. For pallies, the means are as important as the ends. What good is winning when you have compromised your soul to do so?
Warclone 01-17-06, 02:28 PM	Sorry darlin'...I'd go the other way on that one...you are intentionally placing an evil alignment on your blade. A paladin would not accept that as the only way to solve the problem. In effect you admit that there is something that requires evil to defeat. For pallies, the means are as important as the ends. What good is winning when you have compromised your soul to do so? While your argument is correct on a subjective level in CoCo only objective arguments can be made when an objective solution exists. Spells with the evil descriptor are evil. Corrupt Weapon does not have the evil descriptor. Corrupt Weapon is not evil.
DSugui 01-17-06, 02:38 PM	There is a spell called 'Corrupt Weapon' (see Blackguard description) that is identical to Bless Weapon, only the weapon is evil-aligned temporarily. If a paladin were to use an Oil of Corrupt Weapon, would he break his paladin code? In other words, would using this oil be an 'Evil Act'? Its only a tool, and only what I plan to do with the weapon can be considered evil (suppose he needed the evil weapon to perform a goodly mission). I say no, just its mere usage does not violate the code, but I would appreciate a general concensus. Paladins cannot associate with evil characters, so, IMO, it is reasonable that they cannot use evil tools either. Besides, I don't see any other reason to use an evil weapons other than fighting a good character, and that's something I don't think a paladin would do.
SoulLord 01-17-06, 02:47 PM	Paladins cannot associate with evil characters, so, IMO, it is reasonable that they cannot use evil tools either. Besides, I don't see any other reason to use an evil weapons other than fighting a good character, and that's something I don't think a paladin would do. Evil tools have the evil descriptor on it so it seems like it's not an evil tool
Mal-2 01-17-06, 02:53 PM	Here's the spell in question (Bless weapon with alignments swapped out). All changed should be in brackets [like this]. Corrupt Weapon Transmutation Level: [Blk 1] Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Weapon touched Duration: 1 min./level Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No This transmutation makes a weapon strike true against [good] foes. The weapon is treated as having a +1 enhancement bonus for the purpose of bypassing the damage reduction of [good] creatures or striking [good] incorporeal creatures (though the spell doesn’t grant an actual enhancement bonus). The weapon also becomes [evil], which means it can bypass the damage reduction of certain creatures. (This effect overrides and suppresses any other alignment the weapon might have.) Individual arrows or bolts can be transmuted, but affected projectile weapons (such as bows) don’t confer the benefit to the projectiles they shoot. In addition, all critical hit rolls against [good] foes are automatically successful, so every threat is a critical hit. This last effect does not apply to any weapon that already has a magical effect related to critical hits, such as a keen weapon or a vorpal sword. In my opinion, if a paladin wields a weapon that has "become evil", then he's well on his way to losing paladin status. Dunno how that works in CoCo, but I thought a full version of the spell might be useful to the debate.
Macbrea 01-17-06, 03:00 PM	A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents. Somehow, I would think corrupting a weapon would be akin to the use of poisons, and so forth as per the paladin's code of conduct.
NiQil 01-17-06, 03:26 PM	Is this the official ruling? We had this discussion a little while ago, and it was still ambiguous due to the "unless otherwise stated" clause. Is the 24-hour ritual considered "otherwise stated?" If so, then I'll just take a normal match-up and pick up the bat that way. (Of course, since you're Prisonlord, I don't imagine I'll get jailed for doing it the way you suggest, right or wrong. I'll leave my character heading as "ready" unless something else comes up.) Yes, this is the official ruling. The 'unless otherwise stated' is referring to the ceremonies used for druids/rangers to gain animal companions, and wizards/sorcerers to gain familiars. It also refers to the summoning of the paladin/blackguard mount, and a couple of others. No quest required.
Huan 01-17-06, 03:41 PM	Paladins cannot associate with evil characters, so, IMO, it is reasonable that they cannot use evil tools either. Besides, I don't see any other reason to use an evil weapons other than fighting a good character, and that's something I don't think a paladin would do. Clearly you did not see the 4 hound archons that beat up my paladin last week. In the COCO arena, you fight your opponent, no matter the RP. Only in quests and campaigns would a paladin fighting goodly creaturess be an issue. Examining the RAW of the Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents. 'Respecting legitimate authority' is not being vioalted here. The earlier relation to Poison falls under the 'acting without honor', but how is applying an oil or holding a temporary evil weapon cheating or acting without honor. Also, in an arena setting, the 'punish those who harm or threaten innocents' is tossed to the side since its not an issue here. Objectively, the Oil of Corrupt Weapon is not an evil tool given the spell its based on. Is merely weilding a temporarily evil-aligned weapon an evil act? Other than subjective RP, opinions, or feelings on the matter, is there a concrete reason why a paladin cannot use it? (without penalty, of course)
Mal-2 01-17-06, 03:48 PM	Objectively, the Oil of Corrupt Weapon is not an evil tool given the spell its based on. Other than subjective RP, opinions, or feelings on the matter, is there a concrete reason why a paladin cannot use it? (without penalty, of course) The oil does not have the [Evil] descriptor, but once you use the oil on a weapon, the weapon gets the [Evil] descriptor. So, I guess the paladin can own the oil, but if he uses the weapon after the oil is applied to it, it seems to me that he should have problems.
MindWandererB 01-17-06, 04:05 PM	I'm thinking the alignment issue needs a bit more careful consideration. I mean, in normal D&D, fighting a Hound Archon would be an evil act. In the CoCo, it's not. I think if you're going to be fighting good outsiders anyway, you should be allowed to use whatever means are necessary to beat them. Otherwise, things get a little inconsistent, and unfair to good characters. Technically, Mal-2 is correct, but there's a practical concern that is a bigger issue.
Usurpator 01-17-06, 04:26 PM	D&D rules just aren't clear about everything. In my regular games I also have a Paladin/Sorcerer called Maeril. He has this feat call sanctify spell, which essentialy means the spell only does damage to non-good characters. Does this character lose his Paladin abilities when he casts Cloudkill, since it does poison damage? Even if it is a sanctified cloudkill and only affects non-good characters? Especially since the Book of Exalted Deeds introduces a special kind of poison that does not affect good characters. To avoid all difficult problems, we just decided the anythin isn't evil or unpaladin-like until the game specifically says so (by a descriptor) or the DM tells so in advance. In CoCo this should count double so, since there is no RP leeway. And by the way, poison is not considered evil or anti-paladin behaviour in our campaign as well. It is often a more humane way to die than cutting a man up with a dull blade or causing third degree burns with a fireball.
King Uther 01-17-06, 04:42 PM	Alignment in D&D is meant to be a guide, not a restriction. It doesn't define your character. Poison is supposed to be an evil deed, but Exalted Deeds does bring the option to hurt evil beings with it under the right circumstances. In other words, poisoning other intelligent humanoids that are enemies is evil, but demons, devils, extremely evil humanoids, etc....are all fair game. Fighting a Hound Archon is not inherently evil. What if your goals are opposed to each other based on given information? And it doesn't mean their aren't evil ones. Just ask Keith Baker.
Altaris13 01-17-06, 04:44 PM	Though I loathe to support something I would never allow as a DM in a TT situation, I think that we should view this from the "CoCo perspective." Seeing as the Nimbus restores all life taken in the Arena, I see no reason that a Paladin would suffer for fighting and slaying good creatures, outsider or not. Along that same line of thinking, unless something has the [evil] descriptor1, then the Paladin should be allowed to use it to defeat their Arena opponents. 1Or anything explicitly prohibited by the Paladin Code of Conduct or the DM with player fore knolwedge. EDIT: I just wanted to point out that in order to obtain an Oil of Corrupt weapon or something similar, a Paladin (even indirectly) must still associate with an Evil Person. Corrupt Weapon specifically is a Blackguard spell, the antithesis of Paladins everywhere.
Prisonlords 01-17-06, 08:14 PM	Everyone, With the arrival of the new Ask an Elder post, we now have a place where rulings can be handed down. A record of those rulings, as well as other clarifications and house rules, will be held as a part of the Court Decisions post. Rulings from the Prison will also be held here. Basically any ruling that is made will go into the Court Decisions, so that there is now a record of them, and hopefully there will be no more guessing on issues that come up over and over and over. As always, you are free to question any ruling in the Court Decisions post. However, instead of questioning the Prisonlord about it, you should now post your questions in the Ask an Elder thread. That being said, the Court Decisions has been updated to include all recent rulings. If you know of something that has been ruled on that is not included there, drop me a line so I can add it.
DTFarstar 01-17-06, 09:11 PM	I just noticed something, mainly because I wanted to use it, The Red Wizard prestige class was taken out of the SRD? I mean, it's in my DMG, was it not in all of them or did it just not make it online or what?
Erithmu 01-17-06, 09:23 PM	I just noticed something, mainly because I wanted to use it, The Red Wizard prestige class was taken out of the SRD? I mean, it's in my DMG, was it not in all of them or did it just not make it online or what? The Red Wizard PrC is an allowed PrC as well as the Tattoo focus feat required for entry. See here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6463693) most of the way down.
DTFarstar 01-17-06, 09:51 PM	Well, that makes me happy, but is anyone in the know about why it didn't make it online?
Macbrea 01-17-06, 10:10 PM	Red wizard of Thay(Forgotten realms), Illithid/Mind Flayers (Module D2), Slaadi (planescape?), Kou-to(Module D1), Yaun-ti, Githyanki and Githzerai (Both in original Fiend Folio) are all creations of various people in dungeons and dragon history that didn't give permission to open source their IP. As a result, WoTC did not put them in the SRD for open source gaming. You will notice alot of the spells are renamed such as Evard's Black Tenicles(Module G3) was renamed as just Black Tenacles. This holds true of most of the named spells.
MitzaVolchenko 01-17-06, 10:10 PM	@lonewolf I have sent the Quest outline and maps to Scribelords and the notification of Quest ready to run to Pitlords. @everyone in general...I am enjoying the quest running and am working on a full 15 week campaign. Anyone interested in a campagin, send me a PM or catch me on IM. I am flexible for levels and party size. I am fussy that nobody be the polar opposites of the others where alignment is concerned. No paladin in a party with the CE necromancer. I am equally willing to run for bad guys as I am for good, but if you request an evil campaign, please don't be squeamish. @Altaris Thank you for squeezing the end of my MQ in. I didn't want to kill another week with Zwei.
Macbrea 01-17-06, 10:26 PM	You will notice alot of the spells are renamed such as Evard's Black Tenicles(Module G3) was renamed as just Black Tenacles. This holds true of most of the named spells. Ponders if this statement here might be showing my age. http://home.earthlink.net/~macbrea/COCOMaps/Basic2Rule.jpg You might be old if your have ever played using this edition! It was my first set I DMed with. :P
Warclone 01-17-06, 11:53 PM	I have a question: Are the Variant Rules listed in the bottom center of http://d20srd.org/ fair game in the CoCo?
Erithmu 01-17-06, 11:59 PM	I have a question: Are the Variant Rules listed in the bottom center of http://d20srd.org/ fair game in the CoCo? Pretty sure they are not, as far as I can tell they are out of the WotC Unearthed Arcana book which is a book on variant rules. Some of the stuff in there is fun and strong, but I think most people here would have some flaws taken out of there for extra feats and such.
TelinArtho 01-18-06, 12:28 AM	Ponders if this statement here might be showing my age. http://home.earthlink.net/~macbrea/COCOMaps/Basic2Rule.jpg You might be old if your have ever played using this edition! It was my first set I DMed with. :P I don't consider myself old - but I've played with that edition... Of course, I was 5 when I started playing...
TelinArtho 01-18-06, 12:30 AM	I have a question: Are the Variant Rules listed in the bottom center of http://d20srd.org/ fair game in the CoCo? This question comes up frequently. It is clearly spelled out in the rules thread what is allowed - and that is clearly not in that list. However, given the frequency of the question, perhaps an exclusion should be mentioned in the rules thread to hopefully curb the question in the future.
King Uther 01-18-06, 12:31 AM	@Warclone In case you didn't take an answer out of that, it is no. The variant rules do not apply here, as they are not considered "Core."
MitzaVolchenko 01-18-06, 12:47 AM	Ponders if this statement here might be showing my age. You might be old if your have ever played using this edition! It was my first set I DMed with. :P Why do you want me to feel older? It just makes me grumpier. No matter, you shall pay for that...and pay dearly! Muwhahahahaha!
Vathelokai 01-18-06, 07:03 AM	Ponders if this statement here might be showing my age. http://home.earthlink.net/~macbrea/COCOMaps/Basic2Rule.jpg You might be old if your have ever played using this edition! It was my first set I DMed with. :P Ah... the good old days... But then, I'm in the same boat as TelinArtho - started playing young.
Myrridin 01-18-06, 09:28 AM	Heh, reminds me of the old blue and red floppy books that I had when I started; granted, same boat. Started when I was 9 1/2....which, next to Telin, makes me an "old man" when I started. :) That said, sometimes I wish the alternate stuff on d20.org was allowed, I love the idea of a bloodline.
Snommelp 01-18-06, 09:36 AM	Okay, so most of you can beat me with physical age, but mental age is another story. You know how some people have inner children? Well, I have an inner grumpy old man. Seriously. I'll be sitting, taking with friends, and all of a sudden start talking about how back in my day we didn't have any of these new-fangled "3D" video games, we had games which made absolutely no sense, but they were fun and that's the way it was and we liked it. After that usually comes some spiel about walking fifteen miles in the snow uphill both ways.
Altaris13 01-18-06, 09:39 AM	Ponders if this statement here might be showing my age. http://home.earthlink.net/~macbrea/COCOMaps/Basic2Rule.jpg You might be old if your have ever played using this edition! It was my first set I DMed with. :P I remember the blue and red boxed sets. I'm a few years older than Telin though, having started at age 12.
Altaris13 01-18-06, 09:40 AM	Okay, so most of you can beat me with physical age, but mental age is another story. You know how some people have inner children? Well, I have an inner grumpy old man. Seriously. I'll be sitting, taking with friends, and all of a sudden start talking about how back in my day we didn't have any of these new-fangled "3D" video games, we had games which made absolutely no sense, but they were fun and that's the way it was and we liked it. After that usually comes some spiel about walking fifteen miles in the snow uphill both ways. LOL. :D
Myrridin 01-18-06, 09:43 AM	Rohan Darkheart has completed his Miniquest to join the EHTC (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=8260468#post8260468). Thank you for an entertaining Miniquest.
Huan 01-18-06, 09:43 AM	So, for random treasure: If I were to drop a spellbook with some spells aready inside, how much would you say that item is worth? I say 15 gp (the price of the book) + 100 gp per page used (to represent cost of spell as it was scribed). I cannot find an answer in the SRD, so perhaps someone can either find one for me or correct me here. Thoughts?
DSugui 01-18-06, 09:48 AM	- Is the damage from the Collision ability multiplied in a critical hit? - Can a character in Full Plate tap a Psionic Tatoo? Thanks
Altaris13 01-18-06, 10:32 AM	So, for random treasure: If I were to drop a spellbook with some spells aready inside, how much would you say that item is worth? I say 15 gp (the price of the book) + 100 gp per page used (to represent cost of spell as it was scribed). I cannot find an answer in the SRD, so perhaps someone can either find one for me or correct me here. Thoughts? Sounds appropriate to me. Generally I as a DM would just provide scrolls instead of a spellbook. @Dsuqui: re: Collision & crits: I believe it does multiply on crits. IIRC, straight damage bonuses are multiplied but extra damage dice are not (unless specifically stated.) re: full plate & psi-tatoos: there are no rules against it, so we allow it.
MitzaVolchenko 01-18-06, 02:07 PM	Can a charaxcter be allowed to level mid-quest. Karen Douglas was prepared for an EL5 quest this week, but due to a fight edit does not reach ECL5 this week. Can she level after the first encounter and then continue on? I have no problem with it. She gambles against a tougher foe this week and then is on equal footing for next week and the week after.
Caterane 01-18-06, 02:13 PM	This thread is closed! Before one of the Wizo's gets a heart attack upon looking at the post count I'll better close it down. Please continue all discussions in the brandnew Core Coliseum Tavern V (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=571121)! See you there! Caterane Game Master