Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pitlords 04-10-07, 09:01 PM	The Core Coliseum Tavern - The 9th Incarnation - http://www.caterane.de/CoCo/Struktur/Gladius-Tavern8.jpg This is the Tavern of the Core Coliseum. Here, all Characters of Gladius meet to chat, drink, and sometimes even brawl. You can ask questions, talk to others, or write whatever you want as long as it does not violate the Code of Conduct (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=community/coc). You can't really go wrong here. Newcomers who want to make a character should use the Quickstart Guide or read the Rules of Gladius. If you have a question, the Tavern is definitely the right place to go. Links to the old Taverns: Core Coliseum Tavern I Core Coliseum Tavern II Core Coliseum Tavern III Core Coliseum Tavern IV Core Coliseum Tavern V Core Coliseum Tavern VI Core Coliseum Tavern VII Core Coliseum Tavern VIII
Vathelokai 04-10-07, 09:14 PM	Wow. Tavern 9.... I've been here a while...:D *EDIT* Hey, anyone want to to a guild assault for Antalya next week. If you don't know the guild rules, no prob. It's just a monster fight in a seperate thread. I'm a bit busy right now, so the RP requirements are not too high (which is sad, but RL comes first).
SauroGrenom 04-10-07, 10:01 PM	My very first post is in Tavern 3 August 30 2005. Just a few months shy of two years.
Rauul 04-10-07, 10:01 PM	Wow. Tavern 9.... I've been here a while...:D *EDIT* Hey, anyone want to to a guild assault for Antalya next week. If you don't know the guild rules, no prob. It's just a monster fight in a seperate thread. I'm a bit busy right now, so the RP requirements are not too high (which is sad, but RL comes first). I can do one next week for you.. but lately they have just been handed out as normal miniquests (i had 2 last week ecl 10-11) that caught me totaly by surprise lol..
Zevox 04-10-07, 10:15 PM	Wow. Tavern 9.... I've been here a while...:D Heh, no kidding. We were still on Tavern 4 when I joined (tracked down my first post - December 14th, 2005). Amazing how many taverns we've gone through in about a year and a half. Anyway, since Vath was asking for Antayla, I may as well mention my miniquests this week. Anyone in particular want to run Archdevil Asran's assault on the Stygian Strikers (EL 9) or Ceilia Durrol seeking for a Djinni body to reanimate (EL 8)? Zevox
McJarvis 04-10-07, 10:18 PM	Neat. We were on Tavern III when I first entered CoCo. :) edit-> Wow. I was just looking over the archives of my first week here-> Not only did I manage to argue that losing xp while crafting was inbalanced(ToK and Cat argued against me that anyone who would be willing to sit and not level while gaining gold would be lame), but Vath joined later in the same week I did. Good times, good times...
Sindorin 04-10-07, 11:02 PM	I was here for Tavern I... before it was ever Tavern I... It was just Tavern... And most of you are older than me anyway.
Vathelokai 04-10-07, 11:45 PM	Yeah.... I never checked out the character optimization boards, just the Regdar's forums and stuff over in the D&D area. I saw a link in 'Shaken, not Stunned's' sig and dropped in. Funny how that stuff works. Ah the nostalgia. Hope I'm not making the newer members barf... :P *EDIT* Wait... the archives are back up? yippie. *EDIT* still thinking about getting an intellegent item... Denshi's just saving up the money and waiting for a high enough CL.
Rauul 04-10-07, 11:54 PM	well i have redone The shadow.. complete new charater.. a bard (who will die alot) but hey i can have a fun charater... well if you wanna look at him her is here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11803386&postcount=1093) Since i know he will proably go to prison i think i got him layed out and done right... So check him over..
Zevox 04-10-07, 11:57 PM	Yeah.... I never checked out the character optimization boards, just the Regdar's forums and stuff over in the D&D area. I saw a link in 'Shaken, not Stunned's' sig and dropped in. Funny how that stuff works. Ah the nostalgia. Hope I'm not making the newer members barf... :P *EDIT* Wait... the archives are back up? yippie. Heh, so those sig links actually bring in some members eh? Cool. I wound up here thanks to that add Cat had Paradox put across the forums - I noticed it one night while on the FR forums and found myself curious, so I dropped by. A couple of days later (after digesting all them rules we have, heh) I was designing my first character in a word document on my laptop during my spare time before an honors history class ('twas a lot more interesting than trying to make sense of Plato and Socrates, I'll tell you that ;) ). Zevox
SauroGrenom 04-11-07, 12:05 AM	Wow. I have sigs turned off. I found CoCo after trolling around. I was part of a chat online group for a while. Then they had some problem with the server and chat licenses. So I drifted away and went looking for something else. There was a thread run by a person with a name something like MeanLier. I think he called it the Fighters Challenge. You were to use core rules to make an ECL10 single class warrior build and see if you could defeat 3 CR10 monsters of his choice. Of course he chose a monster that would always kick your butt. TheMagister had a character in that. My monk never got a chance to play because the thread died before it was my turn. A ranger finally won. After that died, I got interested in character optimization and found CoCo in the wizards community section of the boards.
Vathelokai 04-11-07, 12:16 AM	Wow. I have sigs turned off. I set mine so that each person's sig only shows up on the first post of theirs on the page. I feel kind of sorry for all the people who have to see the opening lines of 'Howl' in my sig 20 times per page ...;)
Zevox 04-11-07, 12:17 AM	I set mine so that each person's sig only shows up on the first post of theirs on the page. Ditto. Though I'm also pretty sure thats the default, given I don't remember ever changing the settings for showing sigs myself. Zevox
One_Marine 04-11-07, 01:21 AM	How much would a powerstone of Expansion cost for a level 1 Psy-War? 25gp per stone unmodified/augmented? Also, what was the duration changed to in its errata?
Malither76 04-11-07, 01:24 AM	man I realized somthing really bad when I was thinking about my real life game. with the new 3FC is the oath bow only usable in one of those fights, you can only swear against one enemy a day and if you happen to lose it doesn't work again for 7 days, back in the old rules here not a problem but now this really effects Baelin, I know he has been frozen for a year and a few months but that is 25000 gp wasted, if we could get a ruling on this and if its the case were it only works one fight, would I be able to now get a refund?
MindWandererB 04-11-07, 01:24 AM	How much would a powerstone of Expansion cost for a level 1 Psy-War? 25gp per stone unmodified/augmented? Also, what was the duration changed to in its errata? That would be correct--however, it would be all but useless, giving you only one round of effect. To be useful, a power stone of Expansion (or Compression), really needs to be a higher ML, and to be the most useful, should be augmented for greater duration. man I realized somthing really bad when I was thinking about my real life game. with the new 3FC is the oath bow only usable in one of those fights, you can only swear against one enemy a day and if you happen to lose it doesn't work again for 7 days, back in the old rules here not a problem but now this really effects Baelin, I know he has been frozen for a year and a few months but that is 25000 gp wasted, if we could get a ruling on this and if its the case were it only works one fight, would I be able to now get a refund?It would be usable once per 3FC, yes, and if you lose that fight, you'd take a -1 penalty to all other weapons for the rest of the 3FC, and the oathbow would be only masterwork. I'd say the change would merit a refund; take it to the Character Changes thread.
Malither76 04-11-07, 01:32 AM	will do thanks, that 3FC realy nerfed a good weapon here then, when I first got it, I thought man you get a +5 bane weapon agains whoever you want each week for 25000gp it was prefect for the arena, but alas. Wow that means Baelin has over 50000gp now, what to buy what to buy. thanks.
One_Marine 04-11-07, 01:33 AM	That would be correct--however, it would be all but useless, giving you only one round of effect. To be useful, a power stone of Expansion (or Compression), really needs to be a higher ML, and to be the most useful, should be augmented for greater duration. Ok, so then if I augmented it for greater duration (2pp) it would be what, 50 gp per? If not, how would I calculate it? I know its 25*power level*manifester level, but the pp confuse me.
MindWandererB 04-11-07, 01:40 AM	Ok, so then if I augmented it for greater duration (2pp) it would be what, 50 gp per? If not, how would I calculate it? I know its 25*power level*manifester level, but the pp confuse me. At 1+2 PP, it's considered to be 1 higher level. So 25*2*3=150 gp.
One_Marine 04-11-07, 01:48 AM	Alright, thanks.
templer10 04-11-07, 04:56 AM	well i have redone The shadow.. complete new charater.. a bard (who will die alot) but hey i can have a fun charater... well if you wanna look at him her is here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11803386&postcount=1093) Since i know he will proably go to prison i think i got him layed out and done right... So check him over.. well - nothing jumped a me as prison worthy really exept that whole being a bard thing that's worth a prison offense all on it's own. Why combat reflexes? it's not what i call a usefull feat around here when 90% of the time you have 1 on 1 fights and you cant take more then 1 AoA against the same provoking action in the same round anyway. hmm - i hope you like to lose- anyway why charm person- it's all but useless - get sleep maybe? and later on hiedeous laughter.
Abyssal Stalker 04-11-07, 06:39 AM	Heh, no kidding. We were still on Tavern 4 when I joined (tracked down my first post - December 14th, 2005). Amazing how many taverns we've gone through in about a year and a half. Anyway, since Vath was asking for Antayla, I may as well mention my miniquests this week. Anyone in particular want to run Archdevil Asran's assault on the Stygian Strikers (EL 9) or Ceilia Durrol seeking for a Djinni body to reanimate (EL 8)? Zevox Heh, I joined only a day later, december 15th '05. I think my first post here was sending Manzarf's sheet and then I popped in the Tavern to say hello. I followed the same add and got hooked instantly. (We both actually appear the first time in Tavern III on the same page (7), that must've been a good add :))
Sjiggie 04-11-07, 07:15 AM	Anyway, since Vath was asking for Antayla, I may as well mention my miniquests this week. Anyone in particular want to run Archdevil Asran's assault on the Stygian Strikers (EL 9) or Ceilia Durrol seeking for a Djinni body to reanimate (EL 8)? Zevox I can take one of those just put me in the title line -Sjiggie
Zevox 04-11-07, 08:47 AM	Heh, I joined only a day later, december 15th '05. I think my first post here was sending Manzarf's sheet and then I popped in the Tavern to say hello. I followed the same add and got hooked instantly. (We both actually appear the first time in Tavern III on the same page (7), that must've been a good add :)) That it was - I believe MWB said it was what attracted him here, too. :) Zevox
TheMagister 04-11-07, 09:06 AM	Welp, my join date was 4/7/05 (I'm not going to put forth the effort to find my first CoCo post). I guess I could track down that dwarven ranger of mine and see what his creation date was. He was my first character... Hmm...8/13/05. I was around 4 1/2 months before I found this place? Doesn't seem like it went down that way, but I guess it did. TM
Macbrea 04-11-07, 09:19 AM	Well, started 10-25-05 here. Ok, strange fact day! Since it was asked, What is the most fights that have been fought by one character! Here we go! This includes the graveyard. # Name Player Win Loss Draw Fights 1 Perius Ravashack 14 33 0 47 2 Brilf Zephyr Sunwolf 16 18 0 34 3 Zassl Maraxus 17 16 0 33 4 Lissa Longfellow MysticMonk2005 16 15 0 31 5 Zubair Suhaim KerlanRayne 16 14 0 30 6 Kracknol SauroGrenom 20 10 0 30 7 Sunstroke MindWandererB 14 14 0 28 8 Hagrid II Pittbull 17 11 0 28 9 Gaston Dar'ath waywreth 20 7 0 27 10 Vandelar the Red SoulLord 17 9 0 26 11 Little Daisy DSugui 17 9 0 26 12 Izumi Macbrea 10 16 0 26 13 Aerryl Nalladar MindWandererB 17 9 0 26 And using the graveyard, lets see who is the busiest! Player Win Loss Draw Fight TelinArtho 69 84 0 153 Zevox 79 45 0 124 MindWandererB 63 44 1 108 NiQil 52 45 0 97 Caterane 79 11 0 90 Pittbull 58 31 0 89 Sunwolf 49 31 0 80 Maraxus 45 32 0 77 TheMagister 42 33 0 75 Vathelokai 25 45 0 70 Erithmu 36 34 0 70 Luni 42 24 0 66 Kaigan 35 28 0 63 DSugui 28 32 0 60 SauroGrenom 37 23 0 60 Sindorin 28 27 0 55 Macbrea 17 34 0 51 Ravashack 14 33 0 47 MysticMonk2005 23 21 0 44 King Uther 30 14 0 44 Jindl 36 8 0 44 Abyssal Stalker 22 21 0 43 Iced 21 21 0 42 hogarth 28 13 0 41 lonewolf 26 14 0 40 MitzaVolchenko 20 18 0 38 waywreth 23 13 0 36 Milov 13 20 0 33 Tellish_of_Ket 18 15 0 33 Huan 20 13 0 33 Dracazar 16 14 0 30 KerlanRayne 16 14 0 30 Stormwind 11 17 0 28 SoulLord 17 9 0 26 Snommelp 12 12 0 24 Hirumajoe 12 10 0 22 Magagumo 12 10 0 22 Mal-2 13 9 0 22 False_Keraptis 8 13 0 21 Gonbow 14 7 0 21 Rauul 5 13 0 18 Malither76 9 9 0 18 Cerebus13 11 7 0 18 Ariel23 9 8 0 17 TaggIIV 10 7 0 17 Usurpator 15 2 0 17 bgt 3 13 0 16 Etiquette_Gnome 9 6 1 16 Ashenai 10 6 0 16 Dr.Funk 6 9 0 15 Eluria 9 6 0 15 McJarvis 14 1 0 15 Tellish of Ket 12 2 0 14 templer10 12 2 0 14 Beldin 7 6 0 13 Sjiggie 7 6 0 13 Xanadu 8 5 0 13 Ethendril 11 2 0 13 Turin 8 4 0 12 Scaryfroman 3 8 0 11 Cellardweller 7 4 0 11 Zerone 6 4 0 10 T'Var 5 4 0 9 Horatius 5 2 0 7 Moherajikuyx 6 1 0 7 Kemal 7 0 0 7 Druid Roxors 3 3 0 6 Sutro 4 2 0 6 UserNamer 3 2 0 5 Yitzi 3 2 0 5 Party 4 1 0 5 Zelck 4 1 0 5 nickbeat 3 1 0 4 sonofzeal 3 1 0 4 Myrridin 0 3 0 3 TARDIS 0 3 0 3 LLMadCow 2 1 0 3 renlim 2 1 0 3 DTFarstar 0 2 0 2 LaundryGnome 0 1 0 1 Never_On_Time 0 1 0 1 Nightbanegod 0 1 0 1 Papapeperoni 0 1 0 1 Megrim Lord 0 0 0 0
hogarth 04-11-07, 09:27 AM	:teach: I like the "Draw" column -- not much information in that one!
Macbrea 04-11-07, 09:30 AM	Since our first draw was last week. That isn't too unusual.
Erithmu 04-11-07, 09:30 AM	First Character post: 7/3/05 Characters on roughly the same page: Kraegin, Denshi, and a bunch of stuff by some guy named "Prince Fyre Dragon" ... wonder what ever happened that that guy ...
TheMagister 04-11-07, 09:42 AM	Well, started 10-25-05 here. Ok, strange fact day! Since it was asked, What is the most fights that have been fought by one character! You know, I would've sworn that Sdentch was in the upper 20s on # of fights. Edit: Nope. 21 arena fights, and 15 quest/guild related fights. 36 activations in total.
Erithmu 04-11-07, 09:45 AM	You know, I would've sworn that Sdentch was in the upper 20s on # of fights. Technically speaking ... she has 22 fights + 6*3 quests = 40 fights (assuming she succeeded on all of them) Or maybe it just feels that way since I think you took Telin as a questlord more often than not
Rauul 04-11-07, 10:26 AM	well - nothing jumped a me as prison worthy really exept that whole being a bard thing that's worth a prison offense all on it's own. Why combat reflexes? it's not what i call a usefull feat around here when 90% of the time you have 1 on 1 fights and you cant take more then 1 AoA against the same provoking action in the same round anyway. hmm - i hope you like to lose- anyway why charm person- it's all but useless - get sleep maybe? and later on hiedeous laughter. Maybe you should go look at prestige classes, and whats needed for them... and before you jump on the Bards suck bandwagon.. you should look very close at the charater concept... but thank you for the audit
TelinArtho 04-11-07, 10:31 AM	Maybe you should go look at prestige classes, and whats needed for them... and before you jump on the Bards suck bandwagon.. you should look very close at the charater concept... but thank you for the audit Well there is a bit of an error in your feats. As far as I know - humans only get one bonus feat. You have Mobility listed as "Human 2"...
templer10 04-11-07, 10:37 AM	Maybe you should go look at prestige classes, and whats needed for them... and before you jump on the Bards suck bandwagon.. you should look very close at the charater concept... but thank you for the audit You are going for shadowdancer then i assume? it's the only PRC in core that has combat reflexs as prereqs? it's a good PRC- but why bard to start it on then?
Rauul 04-11-07, 10:43 AM	Well there is a bit of an error in your feats. As far as I know - humans only get one bonus feat. You have Mobility listed as "Human 2"... fixed it to be human 1
Rauul 04-11-07, 10:44 AM	You are going for shadowdancer then i assume? it's the only PRC in core that has combat reflexs as prereqs? it's a good PRC- but why bard to start it on then? cause i like bard... :) besides what other class gets hide, move silently and preform in class, and don't get Evasion.. since i really don't like overlapping special abilitys
hogarth 04-11-07, 10:45 AM	fixed it to be human 1 You also have an incorrect range for a composite shortbow (should be 70, not 110).
SauroGrenom 04-11-07, 10:52 AM	That would be correct--however, it would be all but useless, giving you only one round of effect. To be useful, a power stone of Expansion (or Compression), really needs to be a higher ML, and to be the most useful, should be augmented for greater duration.The duration of Expansion was changed in the errata. I think the normal duration is now 1min/level, and augmented it's 10min/level.
McJarvis 04-11-07, 10:52 AM	Neat! One of my characters finally got into the Gladius newspaper! ...now I know how Peter Parker felt when Jonah never mentioned the good things he did :( ;)
Macbrea 04-11-07, 10:55 AM	human: Combat Expertise Bard 1: Dodge Human 1: Mobility Lvl 3: Combat reflexs Is one too many feats. Your allowed Human 1 + Lvl1 1 + Lvl3 1 = 3.
Rauul 04-11-07, 10:55 AM	You also have an incorrect range for a composite shortbow (should be 70, not 110). fixed, and before deadline... anything else can go to prison so i can fix it after a fight thanks edit=> fixed the combat expertise (i missed it on the sheet when i totally redid the charater.. thanks
Macbrea 04-11-07, 10:58 AM	You might want to fix the feat problem. Else you have no feats for the fight.. :P
Rauul 04-11-07, 10:59 AM	You might want to fix the feat problem. Else you have no feats for the fight.. :P fixed
TelinArtho 04-11-07, 11:17 AM	So MWB set me a chalenge to find an error in Cat's accounting from last week (and possibly the week before). I think I have found it, but I am hoping someone can confirm it for me so I have more time to work with: On Mar 21 - Cat added a Library to the Explorer's Guild in Gorthyum. Since CEF doesn't have a Chapter House in Gorthyum we don't formally have control over the district yet - so I don't get any "trait" bonus to resource point production yet. However, with the addition of the library CEF does gain 100 RES points per week which seems to be automatically stored. Is this correct?
Hirumajoe 04-11-07, 11:21 AM	On Mar 21 - Cat added a Library to the Explorer's Guild in Gorthyum. Since CEF doesn't have a Chapter House in Gorthyum we don't formally have control over the district yet - so I don't get any "trait" bonus to resource point production yet. However, with the addition of the library CEF does gain 100 RES points per week which seems to be automatically stored. Is this correct? Sounds right to me. Rooms should produce their flat amount irregardless of the state of the district. And apparently you don't need caravans to move it to a storage facility, as those rules are seemingly ignored. Which does make book keeping easier.
Rauul 04-11-07, 02:10 PM	The Corrupter Looks at the marble Castle of the CEF and Mumbles in Terran "Wonder where they bury their dead Gravedigger.. Maybe we need to look into that info, as they really wouldn't like to face thier dead in combat as we weaken their forces.." Gravedigger looks at his master "Maybe we can join one of the Guilds that Don't get along with them Master." Corrupter Starts to think.. Maybe.. but they would need to tolerate the Horde...
MindWandererB 04-11-07, 02:47 PM	The duration of Expansion was changed in the errata. I think the normal duration is now 1min/level, and augmented it's 10min/level.Nope. It's now 1 rd/lvl base, 10 min/lvl augmented. Believe me, I know... after Sunstroke and Bolrak (both retired--my only two characters to have been retired), I got the Expansion rules down.Sounds right to me. Rooms should produce their flat amount irregardless of the state of the district. And apparently you don't need caravans to move it to a storage facility, as those rules are seemingly ignored. Which does make book keeping easier.With one little problem: no Storage in the district, no PTS generated. District Effect: Districts grant benefits to the resident guild depending on its traits. The list below shows which trait triggers which effect, and how strong the effect is. For example, if the district of Gawane has IND 5, then a guild who controls the district gains +250 Production Points each week which is automatically stored, provided there is a storage room in the local headquarters. If there is no storage present, the resources are lost.
TheMagister 04-11-07, 03:52 PM	Wait. Even the Guild Points acquired from upgrades in the district? I always took the wording of that statement to mean that PTS generated from the District Traits were uncollectable until a Chapter House with a storage facility was present.
MindWandererB 04-11-07, 03:55 PM	Wait. Even the Guild Points acquired from upgrades in the district? I always took the wording of that statement to mean that PTS generated from the District Traits were uncollectable until a Chapter House with a storage facility was present. How would that make sense? The Storage is required to hold any resources produced in that district--without it, you have no place to put them, and the resources are lost.
Hirumajoe 04-11-07, 04:00 PM	Uh-oh... In that case LOY has been doing it wrong for several weeks (months?) now. There's no storage in Kailo (although we've got two in Merisia). This is going to be a mess to clean up...
TheMagister 04-11-07, 04:01 PM	How would that make sense? The Storage is required to hold any resources produced in that district--without it, you have no place to put them, and the resources are lost. Who said anything about making sense? CEF was collecting resources from Gawane LONG before Cat upgraded their Outpost to a Chapter House (IIRC - I could be mistaken). That's where I got the impression. Edit: Okay, I AM mistaken. In that case, WAR's storage numbers are all out of whack. I'll send corrections ASAP. TM
Hirumajoe 04-11-07, 04:05 PM	Although, isn't gold automatically caravan'd around as needed to open treasuries? Why aren't the resources themselves?
TheMagister 04-11-07, 04:06 PM	Just 'cuz.
Hirumajoe 04-11-07, 04:10 PM	LOY has a bigger problem because I'm pretty sure we've spent resources that we technically don't have because of this. I'll have to run the numbers to be sure but this isn't going to be that simple to correct I fear.
TheMagister 04-11-07, 05:02 PM	Yeah...mine are only resources I've collected and not spent (thankfully). Actually it'll be pretty easy to fix.
templer10 04-11-07, 05:17 PM	just making sure- the spell - hide from animals when cast effectivly means that no animal can attack the protected person at any way or form since for animals that person doesnt exsist. now- the spell say "If a warded character touches an animal or attacks any creature, even with a spell, the spell ends for all recipients." - so if teh warded creature attack someone - NOT an animal the spell ends also?
TelinArtho 04-11-07, 05:23 PM	just making sure- the spell - hide from animals when cast effectivly means that no animal can attack the protected person at any way or form since for animals that person doesnt exsist. now- the spell say "If a warded character touches an animal or attacks any creature, even with a spell, the spell ends for all recipients." - so if teh warded creature attack someone - NOT an animal the spell ends also? Correct
MindWandererB 04-11-07, 05:27 PM	just making sure- the spell - hide from animals when cast effectivly means that no animal can attack the protected person at any way or form since for animals that person doesnt exsist.It's theoretically possible, but extraordinarily unlikely. For instance, if a mounted character was under Hide from Animals and his opponent, a bear, was blinded, then the bear might attack the mounted character's square and accidentally hit the character rather than his mount.
McJarvis 04-11-07, 06:22 PM	How would that make sense? The Storage is required to hold any resources produced in that district--without it, you have no place to put them, and the resources are lost. I assumed that for the same reasons that we can collect GP without a treasury in that district we could collect resources from that district. (ie-> Cat ignored the rules, so everyone else could too)
TheMagister 04-11-07, 06:24 PM	note: I couldn't find the instance I thought I was remembering. It doesn't appear that CEF collected any Guild PTS from Gawane until after their Outpost was upgraded to a Chapter House. I was mistaken. {GASP!} TM
MindWandererB 04-11-07, 06:58 PM	I assumed that for the same reasons that we can collect GP without a treasury in that district we could collect resources from that district. (ie-> Cat ignored the rules, so everyone else could too) Grr... I spoke to him about that; he started caravaning for a while... did he stop before he should have? Yep, he's been collecting income from the Explorer's guild without a caravan. That's his mistake.
McJarvis 04-11-07, 07:42 PM	Can Armor Spikes be sundered, or are they considered a part of armor? If they can be-> what HP do they use? (they don't fit into any of the categories in the sunder section of SRD)
Zevox 04-11-07, 07:47 PM	Can Armor Spikes be sundered, or are they considered a part of armor? If they can be-> what HP do they use? (they don't fit into any of the categories in the sunder section of SRD) I would assume no. They may be a weapon, but they're not a single unit you could destroy with one swing. Plus the illustration of them in the PHB displays them as part of the armor. Zevox
Horatius 04-11-07, 07:49 PM	Where can I find the rules on aumenting psionic items? I want to buy augmented tattoos - don't know if that's possible. I know: Tattoo cost = 100gp x PL x ML (for personal range) Also (post above reminded me) do armor spikes add to unarmed damage or replace it? i.e. if I'm a level 6 monk who for some reason wants to wear armor, is it worth having armor spikes?
Zevox 04-11-07, 07:56 PM	Where can I find the rules on aumenting psionic items? I want to buy augmented tattoos - don't know if that's possible. I know: Tattoo cost = 100gp x PL x ML (for personal range) Also (post above reminded me) do armor spikes add to unarmed damage or replace it? i.e. if I'm a level 6 monk who for some reason wants to wear armor, is it worth having armor spikes? Augmented Tattoos are illegal here - tattoos and potions must be bought at minimum CL/ML. Augmented items in general though count as 1 power level higher per 2 pp beyond minimum they are (for instance, a powerstone of vigor augmented at ML 3 would be 25*3[ML]*2[PL] = 150 gp). Armor spikes are a separate weapon from unarmed strikes. Even spiked gauntlets are such. Theres no adding damage to unarmed strikes in such a manner. Zevox
Rauul 04-11-07, 09:13 PM	pearls of power.. usable 1 time per 3fc or 1 time per fight?
Erithmu 04-11-07, 09:14 PM	pearls of power.. usable 1 time per 3fc or 1 time per fight? per 3fc
Vathelokai 04-11-07, 09:22 PM	Where can I find the rules on aumenting psionic items? I want to buy augmented tattoos - don't know if that's possible. I know: Tattoo cost = 100gp x PL x ML (for personal range) Rules of Gladius: metarules ... here there's also some usefull information at the first page of the PSI consortium.
McJarvis 04-12-07, 11:19 AM	Anyone feel like the pricing we use for Wands of Mage Armor(and things similar) to be strange? Even at a home game, it is likely that the Wand of Mage Armor would only need to be used once per encounter. Even then, unless ambushed, it would be an easy prebuff so long as you knew you were going to fight within the next hour. Assuming 3->6 encounters per level, you're going all the way to level 10 and beyond with that sucker. (at which point the 750 gp it cost you is a non-issue because of all that loot you got..) Compare to the calculation of a command word activated item & you're looking at 1,800 gp. (Wow...over 1k gp of savings) Are wands themselves supposed to get a "price curve" depending on usefulness? o_O
hogarth 04-12-07, 11:28 AM	Anyone feel like the pricing we use for Wands of Mage Armor(and things similar) to be strange? Even at a home game, it is likely that the Wand of Mage Armor would only need to be used once per encounter. Even then, unless ambushed, it would be an easy prebuff so long as you knew you were going to fight within the next hour. Assuming 3->6 encounters per level, you're going all the way to level 10 and beyond with that sucker. (at which point the 750 gp it cost you is a non-issue because of all that loot you got..) I think the benefit would run out much before using 50 charges. If I were going to make a mage for the CoCo, I'd rather have a pre-cast Mage Armor extended with a charge from a metamagic rod (so I don't need to waste a buffing round). Scrolls will probably suffice for lower levels. For a wizard/monk or wizard/fighter mix, it might be worth it. YMMV.
Sjiggie 04-12-07, 01:23 PM	I've created a new character Valanthe can somebody take a look at him if everything is correct? I'm still not fond of his skill selection but his next level will be in the PrC Warmind and I was thinking to get Leadership at his next level. For Telin he will be joining the CEF maybe it is easier to start the roleplay there with some new fresh characters. Thanks Sjiggie
One_Marine 04-12-07, 01:39 PM	Your link takes you to the wrong character.
Sjiggie 04-12-07, 01:43 PM	The linkis not wrong but the name on top it should be Valanthe I have another character named Gradek a simple copy paste error the rest of the sheet is correct though. Edit: Name fixed now on the sheet
Hirumajoe 04-12-07, 01:47 PM	An entangled character can't take a 5' step, since their movement is impeded, correct?
TheMagister 04-12-07, 01:56 PM	right
Hirumajoe 04-12-07, 02:00 PM	Ok, thanks. Was just trying to figure out why Valen was getting full-attacked each round by an entangled Jar-red in the dice roller. When Valen is supposed to be making 5' steps each round away from him...
TheMagister 04-12-07, 02:05 PM	could you have missed the ranged touch? Edit: Just checked. Just an oversight on Templer10's part. He's gonna have a rerun or an edit on his hands.
Erithmu 04-12-07, 02:08 PM	I've created a new character Valanthe can somebody take a look at him if everything is correct? I'm still not fond of his skill selection but his next level will be in the PrC Warmind and I was thinking to get Leadership at his next level. For Telin he will be joining the CEF maybe it is easier to start the roleplay there with some new fresh characters. Thanks SjiggieProbably need to amend his alignment to LG, and you should list how much lay on hands you actually have.
Sjiggie 04-12-07, 02:10 PM	Must be a copy paste error originally I had im with the LG alignment will list the amount of lay on hands he can heal on a day
templer10 04-12-07, 03:10 PM	could you have missed the ranged touch? Edit: Just checked. Just an oversight on Templer10's part. He's gonna have a rerun or an edit on his hands. It doesnt matter sine valen won the fight But the description of entangle say- "An entangled creature moves at half speed" as far as i understand teh english languge- there is a diffrence between moving at half speed- which effectivly cuts down move by half - to saying every move you make cost twice- it may look teh same but its not since the first option allows for full attack and the second doesnt- unless there is a faq or something iam not aware off saying otherwisr ill go by my interpritation. note- that as i got 2 chars that use entangle in all its forms i would love the second option to be true.
Hirumajoe 04-12-07, 03:13 PM	It doesnt matter sine valen won the fight But the description of entangle say- "An entangled creature moves at half speed" as far as i understand teh english languge- there is a diffrence between moving at half speed- which effectivly cuts down move by half - to saying every move you make cost twice- it may look teh same but its not since the first option allows for full attack and the second doesnt- unless there is a faq or something iam not aware off saying otherwisr ill go by my interpritation. note- that as i got 2 chars that use entangle in all its forms i would love the second option to be true. A) Thanks for the run. :) B) Valen won anyways?! Taking a full attack each round from Jar-red? Two lucky fights in a row for Valen then... C) I'll see if I can find the entangle issue for you in the FAQ. Or we can wait around for an Elder. But yeah, its a *really* good power.
McJarvis 04-12-07, 03:13 PM	It doesnt matter sine valen won the fight But the description of entangle say- "An entangled creature moves at half speed" as far as i understand teh english languge- there is a diffrence between moving at half speed- which effectivly cuts down move by half - to saying every move you make cost twice- it may look teh same but its not since the first option allows for full attack and the second doesnt- unless there is a faq or something iam not aware off saying otherwisr ill go by my interpritation. The section he's likely referring to is You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isnÂ’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness Personally I'd say being entangled is the same as being hampered by difficult terrain-> especially since it already hampers you from charging or running.
Hirumajoe 04-12-07, 03:20 PM	I guess looking at the SRD, I argued it incorrectly. Although the same net effect occurs, that you can't take a 5' step. Take 5-Foot Step You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round when you move any distance. You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round. You can only take a 5-foot step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature. You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed. Entangled The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls and a -4 penalty to Dexterity. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + the spell’s level) or lose the spell. Edit: Bah... Too slow. Although thanks McJarvis. :)
hogarth 04-12-07, 03:22 PM	Folks, Is the "Battles of Gladius (II)" thread gone forever? I can't find it here nor in the index for the archive. The thread number is #568128.
Hirumajoe 04-12-07, 03:29 PM	In other news, I'm wondering what else I should do to clean up Valen's character sheet. Templer10 has indicated thats its a bit too long/convoluted, so I'm open to suggestions as how to clean it up. Last thing I want happening is Pitlords missing stuff on it because its too messy. Thanks for any/all advice.
templer10 04-12-07, 03:34 PM	In other news, I'm wondering what else I should do to clean up Valen's character sheet. Templer10 has indicated thats its a bit too long/convoluted, so I'm open to suggestions as how to clean it up. Last thing I want happening is Pitlords missing stuff on it because its too messy. Thanks for any/all advice. all the class/race abilties under Sblocks - iam pretty sure everyone know what ranger/psion/human stuff are. you dont really need to add all the conditional modifiers on every single weapon i think - once is probably enough. move all the arrows and stuf into 1 list just put a header in gray that say if something is in quiver - had to look 3 times to find those silver arrows.
McJarvis 04-12-07, 03:41 PM	Putting your fight results in sblocks might help too. Anything that doesn't need to be referenced regularly should be in sblocks, IMO
Hirumajoe 04-12-07, 03:54 PM	In other news, I'm wondering what else I should do to clean up Valen's character sheet. Templer10 has indicated thats its a bit too long/convoluted, so I'm open to suggestions as how to clean it up. Last thing I want happening is Pitlords missing stuff on it because its too messy. Thanks for any/all advice. Ok, I've tried updating a bit. Let me know if thats better. Thanks. Edit: And by the way McJarvis, you really need to update the Loyalist pages (or PM me the password for the Loyalist guildmaster - I seem to have lost it awhile back...) Valen has made it two levels since your last update of the characters. :D
MindWandererB 04-12-07, 03:58 PM	Putting your fight results in sblocks might help too. Anything that doesn't need to be referenced regularly should be in sblocks, IMO Except that this is expressly prohibited. You can put anything else in sblocks, but not your fight results. Cat finds (found) it too hard to check up on a character with the results hidden.
McJarvis 04-12-07, 04:00 PM	Except that this is expressly prohibited. You can put anything else in sblocks, but not your fight results. Cat finds (found) it too hard to check up on a character with the results hidden. O_O. I find that needless. What if they are sblocked at the top of your char sheet?(very first thing) edit-> Honestly, being told what to do like that makes me want to be brattish & intersperse my fight results throughout my entire character sheet, or make them only hyperlinked on one random letter announcing the win/loss....hehe :) edit#2-> My main point really ought to be, it's possible the fight results will be hard to find no matter what unless they are mandated to be at the very top or bottom of the character sheet.(at least, they'll be just as hard to find as the skills or whatever)
Vathelokai 04-12-07, 04:17 PM	Except that this is expressly prohibited. You can put anything else in sblocks, but not your fight results. Cat finds (found) it too hard to check up on a character with the results hidden. I believe that he just didin't want them in nested Sblocks. If it's one sblock at the very bottom that's clearly labeled, then that was fine, but when it's in the fights sblock in the wrapup sblock in the miscelanous sblock he had a problem. At least, that's how I interepreted it and have done it.
Hirumajoe 04-12-07, 04:19 PM	Ok, another dumb question. Whats the current status of Psicrystals? Am I supposed to be giving them feats or not these days? And/or whats their BAB? (Since I'm going through and updating...)
hogarth 04-12-07, 04:27 PM	Ok, another dumb question. Whats the current status of Psicrystals? Am I supposed to be giving them feats or not these days? And/or whats their BAB? (Since I'm going through and updating...) They're treated the same as familiars now. That means no feats except for Alertness, and the same BAB as their masters.
McJarvis 04-12-07, 04:29 PM	They're treated the same as familiars now. That means no feats except for Alertness, and the same BAB as their masters. This has not been updated in the rules & I believe NiQil said it wouldn't take effect until after Iron Man.
Hirumajoe 04-12-07, 04:38 PM	Ok, right, in that case, I'll just add another toughness (+9 hp from feats...) on him and leave Quartz till after the Iron Man finishes. So... Now its the end of the 3FC, and Valen has ~13,000 gp. Since I've been talked out of the Eversmoking bottle and the necklace of adaptation for the moment, that leaves me with the following possibilities: 1) Save until after the next fight, get 16,000 gp and upgrade +1 Adamantine Greatsword to +1 Adamantine Greatsword of Suppresion (1d20+11 dispel every hit!) 2)Buff my AC by purchasing +1 Natural Armor Amulet (2,000), +1 more on my armor (5,000) and +1 more on my ring of deflection (6,000) getting me about 30-31 AC when fully buffed (depending on if I spend 5 pp for Force Screen). (Although only about 18 touch AC) 3)Get boots of Haste for 12,000 which helps my offense (Nothing like a Rapid Shot/Haste Round... ) 4)Other options? I'm currently leaning towards the boots of haste, simply because they're cool. :D
hogarth 04-12-07, 04:51 PM	1) Save until after the next fight, get 16,000 gp and upgrade +1 Adamantine Greatsword to +1 Adamantine Greatsword of Suppresion (1d20+11 dispel every hit!) About the Suppression ability -- does the wielder have any control over whether the ability is used or not? If not (and it just performs a dispel the first three times it is used each day), then it's pretty useless.
Hirumajoe 04-12-07, 04:57 PM	About the Suppression ability -- does the wielder have any control over whether the ability is used or not? If not (and it just performs a dispel the first three times it is used each day), then it's pretty useless. Hrrm... I've always read the 3 times per day limit only applying to bows. I thought the suppression ability itself on a melee weapon was unlimited use. Although I could be wrong in that interpretation. An opponent or object struck by this kind of weapon is subject to a targeted dispel psionics power. The wielder makes a dispel check (1d20 + 5 + manifester level, maximum +15) against a DC of 11 + the manifester level of the power to be dispelled. Bows, crossbows, and slings bestow this ability upon their ammunition, but can do so only three times per day.
Zevox 04-12-07, 04:58 PM	1) Save until after the next fight, get 16,000 gp and upgrade +1 Adamantine Greatsword to +1 Adamantine Greatsword of Suppresion (1d20+11 dispel every hit!) Not every hit - that ability can only be used 3/day. 3)Get boots of Haste for 12,000 which helps my offense (Nothing like a Rapid Shot/Haste Round... ) Thats the one I'd go with. Extra attacks, AC, and attack bonus is a big boost for an archer. Zevox
McJarvis 04-12-07, 04:58 PM	I've read it as "only to bows" as well.
MindWandererB 04-12-07, 05:00 PM	I agree with Hirumajoe and McJarvis: the 3/day clause seems to be specifically referring to bows, slings, and crossbows.
hogarth 04-12-07, 05:09 PM	I agree with Hirumajoe and McJarvis: the 3/day clause seems to be specifically referring to bows, slings, and crossbows. You're right, the wording is clear. I've just been misreading it all this time.
sonofzeal 04-12-07, 05:47 PM	Hey, does anyone have advice on the 4-person all-vs-all fight I'm set to run? How does one best run such a fight while preserving one's sanity?
templer10 04-12-07, 05:53 PM	Hey, does anyone have advice on the 4-person all-vs-all fight I'm set to run? How does one best run such a fight while preserving one's sanity? Get all relevent data- even stuff you normally wouldnt such as bonus to hit what dmg each char does etc normaly etc on the end of turn summery for each char so it's easly referensable. also i dont know if u do it normally- but make first a post with all the chars and tatcis then you can close all the windows that you need to open for the diffrent chars. third- thank whatever you beleave in it's not the forest and you didnt get any sneakers- doing 4X4 of all sneakers can take 5 times the time with all the diffrent spot, listen, move silently etc etc.
Vathelokai 04-12-07, 05:53 PM	Hey, does anyone have advice on the 4-person all-vs-all fight I'm set to run? How does one best run such a fight while preserving one's sanity? :rofl: Sanity... that's a good one. My general pitlord style it to set up the characters and tactics post first; that way you have one window to work with and can just open the sblock of whoever is active that round. The way I've done it is to read the tactics over and over paying close attention to the contingencies (to kind of cut the tactics down to what is relevant, and ignore the 'if they do this' stuff). Then on some scratch paper do a quick outline of who'se doing what for the first 3 rounds or so (basicly up until spot/listen checks are needed). Then just run it like a normal fight. Keep the battlemap open in a seperate window. Best idea, I think, is to run it slow. Take longer than normal, and you won't need to rerun anything.
SauroGrenom 04-12-07, 06:00 PM	Was is ever decided if you can target someone with a targeted spell if someone has total concealment from the Concealing Amorphia power?
Macbrea 04-12-07, 06:02 PM	Generally, in large fights like that I like to run 5 turns, post them, go get something to eat or watch some TV. Then come back and see if any comments have been done. If you have made an error players will mention it. It makes it much easier to fix. Amazingly, you can end up with far less problems if you do it that way for the big fights.
Macbrea 04-12-07, 06:03 PM	If they have total concealment you shouldn't be able to target them. Though you could target their square with an area effect easy enough.
SauroGrenom 04-12-07, 06:10 PM	If they have total concealment you shouldn't be able to target them. Though you could target their square with an area effect easy enough.Yep. Got it.
TheMagister 04-12-07, 06:26 PM	Hey, does anyone have advice on the 4-person all-vs-all fight I'm set to run? How does one best run such a fight while preserving one's sanity? Vath's advice is a good. The only suggestions I have are: Go slow (worth repeating). Add everything twice. Re-read each round after you complete it. You always have missed something. Don't get frustrated. Start early. A fight like this can be fun! Good luck! TM
SauroGrenom 04-12-07, 06:36 PM	narf.
Erithmu 04-12-07, 06:37 PM	narf. What are we going to do tonight Brain?
MindWandererB 04-12-07, 06:39 PM	I use a slightly different strategy, using multiple tabs. I have one window with the text document for the fight, one with the roller, mapper, and possibly the distance calculator in tabs, one with all four character sheets in tabs, and one with all four sent of tactics in tabs. It cuts down on scrolling; I find it a lot more intuitive to find everything. I reference the tactics every round to see what each character wants to do--you can't possibly memorize all four! If your documentation is good, it shouldn't be too bad, even if you have to rewind a bit.
NiQil 04-12-07, 08:55 PM	What are we going to do tonight Brain? The same thing we do every night, Pinky. Try to take over the world!
Yitzi 04-12-07, 09:12 PM	Am I correct that one player with more than one character can have them in different guilds?
McJarvis 04-12-07, 09:16 PM	A family crisis has arisen-> I'm going to be scarce over the next month or so. I'll still pop in to participate in my regularly scheduled activities, but I won't be "chatty" on the forums. More to come on my availability in the long term.
TelinArtho 04-12-07, 09:26 PM	Am I correct that one player with more than one character can have them in different guilds? Correct - I have Ilendil in TLT and Sir Valkin in CEF.
Vathelokai 04-12-07, 10:00 PM	A family crisis has arisen-> I'm going to be scarce over the next month or so. I'll still pop in to participate in my regularly scheduled activities, but I won't be "chatty" on the forums. More to come on my availability in the long term. Boo. Good luck. Can't be good, but hopefully it will end up sane.
Zevox 04-12-07, 10:35 PM	Am I correct that one player with more than one character can have them in different guilds? Absolutely. I for instance have at least one in every Guild except TLT and the CEF (and I used to have a member with them), with two in WAR and three in the EHTC. Zevox
Yitzi 04-12-07, 10:47 PM	Something interesting I figured out-if someone goes down to 100 base PR (probably by losing to a lot of failures) and then wins against someone (of the same ECL, if it's a different ECL, than the principle holds but the magic number is not 100*), the defeated character will have a negative power rating, and will decrease the PR of anyone who defeats them while increasing the PR of anyone who is defeated by them (while affecting their own PR oppositely). *It is actually equal to 100X(multiplier for winner of fight) divided by (multiplier for loser of fight)
SauroGrenom 04-13-07, 12:12 AM	nevermind.
TelinArtho 04-13-07, 12:40 AM	I've created a new character Valanthe can somebody take a look at him if everything is correct? I'm still not fond of his skill selection but his next level will be in the PrC Warmind and I was thinking to get Leadership at his next level. For Telin he will be joining the CEF maybe it is easier to start the roleplay there with some new fresh characters. Thanks Sjiggie Well - he will certainly be welcome to join. If you need a miniquest after you activate him - go ahead and put me in your title line. And of course - roleplaying in the CEF thread is always welcome.
Yitzi 04-13-07, 12:57 AM	I know this has been dealt with before, but I'm not sure where: If someone has assorted bonuses to speed and is wearing medium/heavy armor, what types of bonuses come before the penalty for armor, and which ones come after?
Vathelokai 04-13-07, 01:06 AM	Kind of an open ended question here... If I have 10,000 gp would I be better off with an advance(or elite) griffon, or the figurine of wonderous power griffon. Ignoring the xp/gp penalties for allies. Anyone have experience with this?
Zevox 04-13-07, 01:12 AM	The same thing we do every night, Pinky. Try to take over the world! Are you pondering what I'm pondering? :D
Zevox 04-13-07, 01:19 AM	Kind of an open ended question here... If I have 10,000 gp would I be better off with an advance(or elite) griffon, or the figurine of wonderous power griffon. Ignoring the xp/gp penalties for allies. Anyone have experience with this? Personally, I'd go with a real one, but theres benefits and drawbacks to each. Figurine + No xp/gp penalty + If killed, is not necessarily lost for the cycle. - Requires a round to activate. - Depending on time rolls, may not be available for all three fights regardless of death. - Impossible to customize/advance/make elite. Real Griffon + Can be advanced/customized/made elite. + Definitely available in every fight if not brought to -10 hp. - If killed, definitely not available in subsequent fights. - xp/gp penalty. - Uses CA (prevents bringing other allies). Personally, I prefer the lack of dependance on time rolls, the ability to be customized, and the lack of the hassle of activating an item, so I'd go with the real deal. YMMV. Zevox
Zevox 04-13-07, 01:21 AM	I know this has been dealt with before, but I'm not sure where: If someone has assorted bonuses to speed and is wearing medium/heavy armor, what types of bonuses come before the penalty for armor, and which ones come after? Armor penalty is always applied after everything boosting the speed. Zevox
Erithmu 04-13-07, 01:54 AM	Are you pondering what I'm pondering? :D"I think so Brain, but if Jimmy cracked corn an no one cared, why does he still do it?"
NiQil 04-13-07, 02:13 AM	Are you pondering what I'm pondering? :D Umm, I think so Brain, but how are we going to get the hippo into the bikini?
Etiquette_Gnome 04-13-07, 04:19 AM	I just realized something that's a bit weird, and want to verify. If I'm attempting a free activity that is influenced by armor check penalty (such as Tumble for money, or something), can I assume to not be wearing armor during the free activity, so I can avoid the penalty, then don it right before the fight?
Sjiggie 04-13-07, 08:43 AM	Question: Where is the mercenarie guard (war1) listed. Under the rules it sais in the mercenary guild and when I follow the link it links to the mercenary roster where the regulare mercenaries are listed. Can someone tell me where to find them or do I have to create them myself? -Sjiggie
Vathelokai 04-13-07, 09:59 AM	Question: Where is the mercenarie guard (war1) listed. Under the rules it sais in the mercenary guild and when I follow the link it links to the mercenary roster where the regulare mercenaries are listed. Can someone tell me where to find them or do I have to create them myself? -Sjiggie Since there's none on the roster, you would have to create one. Post it over here. With the iron man drama going on right now, new mercenaries might not get added soon, but my understanding is that they will add a bunch of new mercs to the roster as soon as the new leagues open up (which is the week after the tourney is over).
Rauul 04-13-07, 10:01 AM	Since there's none on the roster, you would have to create one. Post it over here. With the iron man drama going on right now, new mercenaries might not get added soon, but my understanding is that they will add a bunch of new mercs to the roster as soon as the new leagues open up (which is the week after the tourney is over). And note that Players under ECL 5 can't use the Mercenarys..
TelinArtho 04-13-07, 12:39 PM	Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells: A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions. Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Does casting a spell with the Evil descriptor count as an evil act? For instance, if a Paladin/Sorcerer casts Protection from Good - would this break his Code of Conduct? I'm asking since I noticed Mithos casting Protection from Evil as a Paladin of Tyranny - and this is the same effect. Casting a spell with the good descriptor when his code of conduct prohibits it.
hogarth 04-13-07, 12:47 PM	Does casting a spell with the Evil descriptor count as an evil act? For instance, if a Paladin/Sorcerer casts Protection from Good - would this break his Code of Conduct? I'm asking since I noticed Mithos casting Protection from Evil as a Paladin of Tyranny - and this is the same effect. Casting a spell with the good descriptor when his code of conduct prohibits it. I would say that paladins cannot cast spells with the Evil descriptor (and likewise for evil paladins), although it's not explicitly specified in the rules like it is for clerics. Note that one of Caterane's characters had a similar problem when he paid for a Symbol of Pain.
TelinArtho 04-13-07, 01:15 PM	Sir Valkin is looking for a questlord to run his EL10 mission to help CEF's relations with Gawane. Should be starting this week (barring interception anyway). Any takers?
Zevox 04-13-07, 01:17 PM	Does casting a spell with the Evil descriptor count as an evil act? For instance, if a Paladin/Sorcerer casts Protection from Good - would this break his Code of Conduct? I'm asking since I noticed Mithos casting Protection from Evil as a Paladin of Tyranny - and this is the same effect. Casting a spell with the good descriptor when his code of conduct prohibits it. *blinks* I completely forgot that spell has the [Good] tag. Damn, if I'd remembered that, I'd have bought it as a potion. That could be a problem with that fight... (Unless of course you'd let him change the scroll to a potion? Same cost, it just lasts 1 minute less.) Edit: Nevermind, didn't realize the fight was over and it wouldn't change anything. Zevox
TelinArtho 04-13-07, 01:28 PM	*blinks* I completely forgot that spell has the [Good] tag. Damn, if I'd remembered that, I'd have bought it as a potion. That could be a problem with that fight... (Unless of course you'd let him change the scroll to a potion? Same cost, it just lasts 1 minute less.) Edit: Nevermind, didn't realize the fight was over and it wouldn't change anything. Zevox I wasn't going to blind-side you with it in any case. If you are in agreement with it - I'll let you correct the error on your own for the future and not bother with a prison violation.
Erithmu 04-13-07, 04:52 PM	Sir Valkin is looking for a questlord to run his EL10 mission to help CEF's relations with Gawane. Should be starting this week (barring interception anyway). Any takers? yoink
Etiquette_Gnome 04-13-07, 05:35 PM	A seperate question to my list Do familiars/psicrystal have the ability to use spell-trigger/activation items like their owner (owl with wand of magic missile, for instance)? If I'm attempting a free activity that is influenced by armor check penalty (such as Tumble for money, or something), can I assume to not be wearing armor during the free activity, so I can avoid the penalty, then don it right before the fight?
TelinArtho 04-13-07, 05:42 PM	A seperate question to my list Do familiars/psicrystal have the ability to use spell-trigger/activation items like their owner (owl with wand of magic missile, for instance)? If I'm attempting a free activity that is influenced by armor check penalty (such as Tumble for money, or something), can I assume to not be wearing armor during the free activity, so I can avoid the penalty, then don it right before the fight? On the latter question - for free activities to make money yes. For free activities/automatic activities that affect you or your opponent for the fight - no (unless you note on your sheet that your armor is off for the fight in your prebuff). On the former question - not unless they have a spell list to use them from and the ability to activate the item. We have already ruled that the standard familiars can't manipulate the wands/dorjes well enough. Mephits and some of the improved familiars can - but only if they have Use Magic Device/Psionic Device skills to help them.
Zevox 04-13-07, 06:52 PM	Do familiars/psicrystal have the ability to use spell-trigger/activation items like their owner (owl with wand of magic missile, for instance)? In addition to what Telin said, note that most normal familiars cannot speak (the Raven being the only one), which renders them unable to use wands (or anything else requiring a command word). Psicrstals also lack any appendages for manipulating wands or dorjes - they can only grow ectoplasmic legs - so they're out too. Zevox
Rauul 04-13-07, 08:16 PM	Question... when a Psi warrior buys powerstones are they considered addressed (as in they don't need psicraft dc 15 to use them)
Zevox 04-13-07, 08:30 PM	Question... when a Psi warrior buys powerstones are they considered addressed (as in they don't need psicraft dc 15 to use them) Nope. They need to address them (they can't come pre-addressed, because addressing is the psionic character in question looking into the stone to learn what power it contains and how to use it, which is an individual process). Zevox
templer10 04-13-07, 09:04 PM	Nope. They need to address them (they can't come pre-addressed, because addressing is the psionic character in question looking into the stone to learn what power it contains and how to use it, which is an individual process). Zevox not sure you are right there but by our rules it doesnt matter since you can take 20 to make the roll (you do it before the fight obviosly).
Zevox 04-13-07, 09:06 PM	the distinction is fairly meaningless since you can take 20 to make it (you do it before the fight obviosly). Mostly true, but its not quite meaningless. Psicraft is a trained-only skill - if a Psionic character has no ranks in it, they thus cannot address a powerstone, and therefore cannot use powerstones at all. This is a bit annoying for Psychic Warriors, who have low skill points and don't have Psicraft as a class skill. Zevox
Erithmu 04-13-07, 09:07 PM	not sure you are right there but by our rules it doesnt matter since you can take 20 to make the roll (you do it before the fight obviosly).Except psicraft/spellcraft is trained only, so you need a rank. We have put people in prison before for this, or considered it for fights.
McJarvis 04-13-07, 11:24 PM	So I need to get Zaroff equipped with 1 rank in psicraft? Shouldn't be too hard, given his skill choices... Glad I haven't used any expendables :)
Sjiggie 04-14-07, 08:05 AM	Since there's none on the roster, you would have to create one. Post it over here. With the iron man drama going on right now, new mercenaries might not get added soon, but my understanding is that they will add a bunch of new mercs to the roster as soon as the new leagues open up (which is the week after the tourney is over). Well the problem is this is a mercenarypo listed under the NPC service section here. They only cost you 2sp/day.
hogarth 04-14-07, 08:07 AM	Well the problem is this is a mercenarypo listed under the NPC service section here. They only cost you 2sp/day. You need to read the footnote more carefully: "3: Mercenary Hirelings may not fight in the arena but you can bring them with you on a quest. They can act as guards or perform other duties. The Guard (War1), Cavalerist (War1), and Leader (War2) can be found in the Mercenaries Guild. "
Sjiggie 04-14-07, 08:10 AM	I know there for Sabra for who I'm running a miniquest ;)
Vathelokai 04-14-07, 10:17 AM	You need to read the footnote more carefully: "3: Mercenary Hirelings may not fight in the arena but you can bring them with you on a quest. They can act as guards or perform other duties. The Guard (War1), Cavalerist (War1), and Leader (War2) can be found in the Mercenaries Guild. " What the... I hate it when the rules get changed and no one is told.
SauroGrenom 04-14-07, 11:27 AM	I wonder who's logged in as Guildmaster (PSI). It's not me.
Zevox 04-14-07, 11:32 AM	*frowns* Odd. Was anyone new named assistant Guildmaster in DSugui's absence? Zevox
SauroGrenom 04-14-07, 11:42 AM	*frowns* Odd. Was anyone new named assistant Guildmaster in DSugui's absence? ZevoxNo.
Hirumajoe 04-14-07, 12:36 PM	I realize this is probably a bit late, and the Elders have voted in regards to the Spells and AoO, but I'm just curious why no one brought up the following in the arguments presented: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll. Touch Attacks Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. However, the act of casting a spell does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack. Your opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally. Holding the Charge If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge. The touch attack (either melee or ranged) is a distinct part from casting the spell. The attack explicitly doesn't provoke an AoO, but the spellcasting can. They're treated as two actions from an explanatory point of view. Heck, you can move between casting and touching. I don't see any other way to read that in the rules quoted. Its also backed up by the RotG article part 3. Cast a Spell: Most spells require one standard action to cast. To cast any spell, you must provide any components the spell requires. See Rules of the Game: Reading Spell Descriptions for details. Casting a spell usually provokes an attack of opportunity from every foe that threatens you when you cast. As a nonaction, you can make a Concentration check to cast a spell defensively. Doing so allows you to cast the spell without provoking attacks of opportunity, but you must succeed at the Concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) or lose the spell. Other conditions, such as poor weather, continuing damage, or hostile spells also can break your concentration; see the Concentration skill description in the Player's Handbook for details. If you cast a spell with a range of touch, you can touch one recipient as a nonaction that's part of the action you used to cast the spell. You also can opt to hold the charge for a spell with touch range. Though you can lose the charge by accident, you must use a standard action to deliver the spell where you want it. As a full-round action, you can touch up to six friends with a touch spell, but that's worthwhile with only a few spells. See Rules of the Game: Reading Spell Descriptions for details. It indicates that the touch attack which occurs in the same round is a non-action. And non-actions can trigger AoOs (since AoOs which are non-actions can trigger AoOs) if they meet the requirements. And ranged touch attacks are a subset of touch attacks (as indicated in the first excerpt,second bolded section) So can someone explain why the attack rolls necessary for a touch attack are considered the same action as spellcasting? Does this mean I can cast a touch spell, move 30', and then provoke an attack of opportunity for having cast the spell 30' back when I go to touch my target because I didn't cast defensively, becuase the touch attack is part of the spell casting action? Spoiling the spell I might add if hit for enough damage, which I should know before I finished casting and so don't move the 30' and cause a causal loop to implode the universe? :D If someone can explain this to me, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.
Zevox 04-14-07, 12:45 PM	Little difference here: ranged touch attacks, unlike normal touch attacks, can't have a charge held. They occur immediately, or not at all, and thus aren't distinct from the spell itself (unlike normal touch attacks, which as you say since they can be held can be separate from the spellcasting itself). Thats my thoughts on the matter anyway. Zevox
Hirumajoe 04-14-07, 03:17 PM	Hmm... I wonder then, can melee touch attacks be made as part of the spell like ray spells, or does the touch action always have to come after the spell casting? I'm guessing that its always after. Otherwise you could wind up with situation of a large caster attacking a large target in an AMF that you don't realize is up (or a Globe of Invulnerability), go to cast and touch simultaneously inflict light wounds with a 10' reach, and not actually be considered armed as you make the attack (due to the fact that the spell can't actually function where the target is.) At which point an AoO would be in order. Even if you did cast defensively. I guess its just not that obvious from the rules that ranged and melee touch attack spells function so differently. I mean certainly you can hold the spell, but why can't you touch at the same time as the spell like for the ray spells? Edit: In a semi-related question that just popped into my head, if you're considered armed because of a held charge from a spell, like shocking grasp, and your opponent is immune to that damage type (i.e. a half blue dragon), are you considered armed against that opponent? Are there any options for said opponent to treat you as unarmed? Edit 2: Or similarly a non-evil creature being touched by a Dispel Evil spell?
Yitzi 04-14-07, 10:07 PM	Question 1: I would guess it's seperate, as you have to move your hand to touch the target, and that probably would not be part of the spell (since it is an action that takes more movement) as opposed to a ray, whereas one would presume pointing is part of the spell (since it is easier). I'm not certain, though. Question 2: I think it would depend if the target knows your spell can't hurt them, as the reason you don't provoke an AoO when holding a touch spell is presumably because the enemy can't afford to make an AoO and thereby subject themselves to the spell.
Zevox 04-14-07, 10:25 PM	Edit: In a semi-related question that just popped into my head, if you're considered armed because of a held charge from a spell, like shocking grasp, and your opponent is immune to that damage type (i.e. a half blue dragon), are you considered armed against that opponent? Are there any options for said opponent to treat you as unarmed? Edit 2: Or similarly a non-evil creature being touched by a Dispel Evil spell? Of course you're considered armed - the spell specifies as much. Whether the opponent can actually be harmed by the effect is immaterial in that (else would you be considered unarmed when striking a creature with DR with a weapon that can't possibly hurt it past that DR? That'd be a truly nonsensical situation, don't you think?). Zevox
Hirumajoe 04-14-07, 11:29 PM	Of course you're considered armed - the spell specifies as much. Whether the opponent can actually be harmed by the effect is immaterial in that (else would you be considered unarmed when striking a creature with DR with a weapon that can't possibly hurt it past that DR? That'd be a truly nonsensical situation, don't you think?). Zevox Well, the spell dispel evil doesn't specify that you're armed, but I guess it is explicit in the definition of touch attacks. So yeah, as far as D&D rules are concerned you've got it right. Although I could imagine a really twisted scenerio in which a cleric spontaneously cast cure minor wounds to have a touch attack ready and then later in the turn uses an AoO to grapple his opponent. Because he's threatening adjacent squares with a healing spell (which can in fact hurt undead, even if most gladiators aren't undead). :D Although, you are allowed to take other actions with an AoO other than a straight attack, right? If not I guess I don't have to worry about that convoluted situation. Question 2: I think it would depend if the target knows your spell can't hurt them, as the reason you don't provoke an AoO when holding a touch spell is presumably because the enemy can't afford to make an AoO and thereby subject themselves to the spell. This suddenly makes me wonder if you can bluff casting a touch spell when in reality you didn't... Should be possible I think.
Zevox 04-14-07, 11:41 PM	Although I could imagine a really twisted scenerio in which a cleric spontaneously cast cure minor wounds to have a touch attack ready and then later in the turn uses an AoO to grapple his opponent. Because he's threatening adjacent squares with a healing spell. :D I don't know if that'd be possible. Off the top of my head, I don't think being considered armed and being considered to threaten adjacent spaces are the same thing. I suppose if need be I can look into this to see if that convoluted scenario could occur (though if it did, you'd heal your foe when you grab him). Although, you are allowed to take other actions with an AoO other than a straight attack, right? If not I guess I don't have to worry about that convoluted situation. You can do that, yes. Using AoOs to trip, grapple, or sunder is a staple of many expanding psychic warriors around here. Zevox
Hirumajoe 04-14-07, 11:44 PM	I don't know if that'd be possible. Off the top of my head, I don't think being considered armed and being considered to threaten adjacent spaces are the same thing. I suppose if need be I can look into this to see if that convoluted scenario could occur (though if it did, you'd heal your foe when you grab him). I think the following answers that with a yes (i.e. armed = threatening squares you can reach). And well, thats why you used cure minor wounds for 1 point of healing. :) You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you’re unarmed, you don’t normally threaten any squares and thus can’t make attacks of opportunity. Not that this is game breaking or anything, but its an interesting oddity in the rules.
Yitzi 04-14-07, 11:53 PM	I think the following answers that with a yes (i.e. armed = threatening squares you can reach). And well, thats why you used cure minor wounds for 1 point of healing. :) Actually, it's probably designed more for stabilizing&waking up dying characters/creatures and removing caltrop wounds
Zevox 04-14-07, 11:54 PM	Of course, theres an easier way to be considered armed even when not wielding a weapon/without IUS. Wear a spiked gauntlet. :) Zevox
Yitzi 04-15-07, 12:10 AM	Question: In the rules under "time progression" (under "starting out" (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6463615#post6463615)) it says "The city of Gladius has a real time progression... mostly. Time in Gladius moves at the same rate it does on Earth, meaning that one week of real time is one week of Gladius time. This is important for activities such as crafting, or knowing how much time your Paladin still has to go without a mount ever since Missy kicked the bucket last week." In the rules under "death of an ally" (in Allies 1 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6466763#post6466763)) it says "If a cohort or ally dies in one of the various Battles of Gladius (or otherwise inside the Nimbus), it is True Ressurected, re-summoned, re-animated, or otherwise made whole again, for free, after the 3-Fight Cycle is complete. There will be no negative side-effects from losing an ally (eg paladin's mount, familiar). Until then, however, the ally is not available and cannot assist you in any way. He's basically... dead." So? The first says the 30-day restriction applies to paladin mounts, the second says it doesn't.
MindWandererB 04-15-07, 01:38 AM	Question: In the rules under "time progression" (under "starting out" (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6463615#post6463615)) it says "The city of Gladius has a real time progression... mostly. Time in Gladius moves at the same rate it does on Earth, meaning that one week of real time is one week of Gladius time. This is important for activities such as crafting, or knowing how much time your Paladin still has to go without a mount ever since Missy kicked the bucket last week." In the rules under "death of an ally" (in Allies 1 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6466763#post6466763)) it says "If a cohort or ally dies in one of the various Battles of Gladius (or otherwise inside the Nimbus), it is True Ressurected, re-summoned, re-animated, or otherwise made whole again, for free, after the 3-Fight Cycle is complete. There will be no negative side-effects from losing an ally (eg paladin's mount, familiar). Until then, however, the ally is not available and cannot assist you in any way. He's basically... dead." So? The first says the 30-day restriction applies to paladin mounts, the second says it doesn't. You're right, that is confusing. Allies used to stay dead if they died on quests, so that's what the former quote refers to. I'll fix that.
Deathspell_Omega 04-15-07, 12:06 PM	Hey there, just came around here. :) I was wondering if anyone could check out my sheet in case there's something wrong with it..? Shadovar Also, my char applies both to Ambush and Assassinate action sets. Does that mean I can use both when applicable, or choose one of them? Also, I'm not sure I completely get Rob Store. With my skills, what gp of item can I steal? Thanks in advance. :) Cheerios.
templer10 04-15-07, 12:28 PM	Hey there, just came around here. :) I was wondering if anyone could check out my sheet in case there's something wrong with it..? Shadovar Also, my char applies both to Ambush and Assassinate action sets. Does that mean I can use both when applicable, or choose one of them? Also, I'm not sure I completely get Rob Store. With my skills, what gp of item can I steal? Thanks in advance. :) Cheerios. hey and welcome- didnt have time to ggo over the sheet in total but 1 thing i noticed off the bad is the constitution score- you just CANT have a constitution score of 8- it's just asking to die. i would reccomend making that Int 14 and using the points to pump con to 12 which net you 6 more HP and +2 to fort. (or at worst int to 15 and get it back up to 16 at level 4). also- while your hide skill is fairly high realisiticly speaking it wont last you more then then 1 maybe 2 attacks before someone will spot you no matter how low their spot modifier is just becuase the minus from sniping and moving while hiding is so high.
Rauul 04-15-07, 12:30 PM	Hey there, just came around here. :) I was wondering if anyone could check out my sheet in case there's something wrong with it..? Shadovar Also, my char applies both to Ambush and Assassinate action sets. Does that mean I can use both when applicable, or choose one of them? Also, I'm not sure I completely get Rob Store. With my skills, what gp of item can I steal? Thanks in advance. :) Cheerios. yup you qualify for Rob store (121gp Expendable item(potions, oils.. ), and you qualify for Burglary (153 gp value of expendables taken before a fight if they aren't guarding) Nice looking halfling.. and yes you get Both Ambush and assassinate, but only if your attacking.. Good Luck and hope to See you in the arena
Deathspell_Omega 04-15-07, 01:32 PM	hey and welcome- didnt have time to ggo over the sheet in total but 1 thing i noticed off the bad is the constitution score- you just CANT have a constitution score of 8- it's just asking to die. i would reccomend making that Int 14 and using the points to pump con to 12 which net you 6 more HP and +2 to fort. (or at worst int to 15 and get it back up to 16 at level 4). also- while your hide skill is fairly high realisiticly speaking it wont last you more then then 1 maybe 2 attacks before someone will spot you no matter how low their spot modifier is just becuase the minus from sniping and moving while hiding is so high.Yeah, I know it's pretty weak con wise, I wanted to have a glass-cannon so to speak, maybe I can cut the int and raise the con, but I enjoy my skills too, let's see... I still have some time to play around with the build. ;)yup you qualify for Rob store (121gp Expendable item(potions, oils.. ), and you qualify for Burglary (153 gp value of expendables taken before a fight if they aren't guarding) Nice looking halfling.. and yes you get Both Ambush and assassinate, but only if your attacking.. Good Luck and hope to See you in the arenaGreat, this clearifies a lot. Thanks for all the help. :)
Yitzi 04-15-07, 02:12 PM	I would advise against a glass cannon, since they work best when teamed with someone to defend them, which is uncommon in the arena.
sonofzeal 04-15-07, 02:40 PM	I've been reading over the fourway tactics that have been sent to me, and I have to ask - what is "wall walking"? Is it just following the arena wall around in a big circle, or something more specific? Also, I was reading over the Disarm/Sunder rules, and it looks rather ambiguous whether the +4 for large weapons and -4 for small weapons applies to both attacker and defender, or just to the attacker. Any clarification on this?
Deathspell_Omega 04-15-07, 02:45 PM	Yeah, I changed it a lot. I definietly like it better now (Rogue 1/ Ranger 2 with more use of poisons).
Zevox 04-15-07, 03:16 PM	I've been reading over the fourway tactics that have been sent to me, and I have to ask - what is "wall walking"? Is it just following the arena wall around in a big circle, or something more specific? Wall Walker is a psionic power, basically a psionic version of Spider Climb. Two of the characters in that fight have powerstones containing it. Also, I was reading over the Disarm/Sunder rules, and it looks rather ambiguous whether the +4 for large weapons and -4 for small weapons applies to both attacker and defender, or just to the attacker. Any clarification on this? Step 2: Opposed Rolls. You and the defender make opposed attack rolls with your respective weapons. The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a disarm attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a –4 penalty. (An unarmed strike is considered a light weapon, so you always take a penalty when trying to disarm an opponent by using an unarmed strike.) If the combatants are of different sizes, the larger combatant gets a bonus on the attack roll of +4 per difference in size category. If the targeted item isn’t a melee weapon, the defender takes a –4 penalty on the roll. Step 2: Opposed Rolls. You and the defender make opposed attack rolls with your respective weapons. The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a sunder attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a –4 penalty. If the combatants are of different sizes, the larger combatant gets a bonus on the attack roll of +4 per difference in size category. I don't see how theres anything ambiguous about that. The wielder of whichever type of weapon take takes that bonus/penalty to the check - no mention of them needing to be attacker or defender. Zevox
templer10 04-15-07, 03:56 PM	I've been reading over the fourway tactics that have been sent to me, and I have to ask - what is "wall walking"? Is it just following the arena wall around in a big circle, or something more specific? Also, I was reading over the Disarm/Sunder rules, and it looks rather ambiguous whether the +4 for large weapons and -4 for small weapons applies to both attacker and defender, or just to the attacker. Any clarification on this? also note that a longbow ISNT considered a 2 handed weapon and dont use the dex modifier to the opposed sunder roll but the str (if someone attempts to sunder it that is).
sonofzeal 04-15-07, 04:06 PM	also note that a longbow ISNT considered a 2 handed weapon and dont use the dex modifier to the opposed sunder roll but the str (if someone attempts to sunder it that is). 1) I don't see anything in the SRD to suggest they wouldn't use Dex for ranged weapons or Finessed weapons. 2) While bows arn't in the "two handed weapons" catagory and arn't eligable for that +4 mod, they certainly arn't in the "light weapons" catagory as stated in your tactics. @ Zevox 3) The -4 for non-melee weapons is only in the "Disarm" description; there doesn't appear to be any penalty for the defender if you're targetting a ranged weapon for Sunder. Oh, and the ambiguity I saw was the wording "on a sunder attempt", which could be interpreted as talking solely to the attacker.
Zevox 04-15-07, 04:14 PM	1) I don't see anything in the SRD to suggest they wouldn't use Dex for ranged weapons or Finessed weapons. Indeed, theres no reason why it would use strength. Not sure why templer10 thought that. 2) While bows arn't in the "two handed weapons" catagory and arn't eligable for that +4 mod, they certainly arn't in the "light weapons" catagory as stated in your tactics. Also quite true. They're ranged weapons, which are neither. @ Zevok 3) The -4 for non-melee weapons is only in the "Disarm" description; there doesn't appear to be any penalty for the defender if you're targetting a ranged weapon for Sunder. Hm, got those two mixed up when I wrote the tactics then. Oh well. (PS - thats an x at the end of my name, not a k ;) .) Oh, and the ambiguity I saw was the wording "on a sunder attempt", which could be interpreted as talking solely to the attacker. Never heard anyone make that mistake before (not even sure how it could be interpreted as such to be honest). No, it applies to both. Zevox
templer10 04-15-07, 04:16 PM	1) I don't see anything in the SRD to suggest they wouldn't use Dex for ranged weapons or Finessed weapons. 2) While bows arn't in the "two handed weapons" catagory and arn't eligable for that +4 mod, they certainly arn't in the "light weapons" catagory as stated in your tactics. @ Zevok 3) The -4 for non-melee weapons is only in the "Disarm" description; there doesn't appear to be any penalty for the defender if you're targetting a ranged weapon for Sunder. Oh, and the ambiguity I saw was the wording "on a sunder attempt", which could be interpreted as talking solely to the attacker. i had same problem but some of the elders corrected me and said you use STR when someone attept to sunder a ranged weapon since apperantly it's not the way you use the weapon naturaly or some such- if could 1 of the elders repeat what it was please?
hogarth 04-15-07, 04:44 PM	i had same problem but some of the elders corrected me and said you use STR when someone attept to sunder a ranged weapon since apperantly it's not the way you use the weapon naturaly or some such- if could 1 of the elders repeat what it was please? I thought the idea was that a disarm/sunder requires a melee attack roll. The only melee attack you can make with a bow is thwacking someone with it as an improvised weapon. The ability modifier that applies to an improvised weapon of that size is Str. I could be wrong, though.
templer10 04-15-07, 05:08 PM	i dug it up - TOK cleared it up for me couple of weeks ago- A sunder attempt vs bow is just straight bab+str since he's holding it in his hands it would be treated as any other improvised melee weapon. Despite taking two hands to fire, you in fact only hold onto it with one hand so no two-handed bonus. Lastly, it's a medium sized weapon as Lightwolf is medium sized. You don't get dex as Yitzi claims because he doesn't have weapon finesse and it's not finessable. He's not firing the bow to avoid me sundering it...he's using his strength to oppose it. Hope that helps. ToK
Zevox 04-15-07, 06:16 PM	The problem templer10 is that theres nothing in the rules to back up ToK's claims there. The only rules-based thing in there is the argument that it be treated as an improvised melee weapon, but nowhere in the sunder rules is it indicated that you do such. I've got to say, logical though his claims may be from a realistic perspective, I think ToK is wrong here. Zevox
templer10 04-15-07, 06:37 PM	i have no opinion 1 way or the other really- i just want to know what's the ruling on this going to be so i can be ready for the future.
Vathelokai 04-15-07, 07:32 PM	Question: if you go on a quest to get some bodies to cast animate dead on, do you have to cast animate dead from memory? Wondering if I could do it with scrolls or custom items or something.
Zevox 04-15-07, 07:35 PM	Question: if you go on a quest to get some bodies to cast animate dead on, do you have to cast animate dead from memory? Wondering if I could do it with scrolls or custom items or something. I'd presume scrolls and items would be fine. Certainly we have no rules against it. Zevox
Rauul 04-15-07, 09:05 PM	Question: if you go on a quest to get some bodies to cast animate dead on, do you have to cast animate dead from memory? Wondering if I could do it with scrolls or custom items or something. I would suggest a few scrolls to preserve the bodys... and then Animate them at a temple with desecrate after the quest/miniquest But thats just me
Vathelokai 04-15-07, 10:42 PM	Next Question (a bit more vague): Do the ghost ethereal items in the metarules work for any kind of incorporeal creature, or only for ethereal ones? Equipment: Since a ghost is incorporal, he cannot touch and use material items normally. Ethereal items, however, are much more difficult to obtain so a special rule had to be created: As a Free Activity, a ghost can buy ethereal items of up to 1000 gold marketprice. As a Full Activity, he can buy ethereal items of up to 7000 gold marketprice per week. Alternatively, the ghost can quest for ethereal items by setting the item as questgoal but it must be a 3-week Quest and the rewards must cover the marketprice in gold.
hogarth 04-15-07, 11:04 PM	Next Question (a bit more vague): Do the ghost ethereal items in the metarules work for any kind of incorporeal creature, or only for ethereal ones? As worded, it looks like it's just for ethereal ones. Incorporeal creatures (like unbodied) are pretty much stuck with ghost touch weapons/armor, it seems.
Vathelokai 04-15-07, 11:50 PM	and question 3: the necromancer specialist from the unearthed arcana has this option Any time a necromancer using this variant creates an undead creature (such as with animate dead, create undead, or create greater undead), all undead creatures created gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Dexterity, and two additional hit points per Hit Die. This ability does not affect the number or Hit Dice of animated creatures that the necromancer can create or control.Considering the wording, could a necromancer with another method of creating undead (such as a vampires create spawn ability) apply this to their spawn?
Erithmu 04-16-07, 12:06 AM	Anyone else having issues w/ the Dice roller?
sonofzeal 04-16-07, 12:25 AM	I just found an issue (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12110076&postcount=1178) on El Rapido's character sheet that may have a significant impact on the FFA fight I'm running. I've never reported anyone who was in a fight I was running before, so I thought I'd pop in here and ask what I should do about the fight in light of this. So.... yeah, what should I do about the fight in light of this?
Erithmu 04-16-07, 12:54 AM	I just found an issue (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12110076&postcount=1178) on El Rapido's character sheet that may have a significant impact on the FFA fight I'm running. I've never reported anyone who was in a fight I was running before, so I thought I'd pop in here and ask what I should do about the fight in light of this. So.... yeah, what should I do about the fight in light of this?They are actually power stones of "Energy Adaptation, Specified" Which is a 2nd level power. And while they are listed as ML 1 he paid for them as though they were ML 3. So I wouldn't worry about it, other than the fact that the duration should be a bit longer.
NiQil 04-16-07, 12:56 AM	I just found an issue (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12110076&postcount=1178) on El Rapido's character sheet that may have a significant impact on the FFA fight I'm running. I've never reported anyone who was in a fight I was running before, so I thought I'd pop in here and ask what I should do about the fight in light of this. So.... yeah, what should I do about the fight in light of this? As pitlord, it is your option. The most common way to handle an illegal item is to simply deny access to that item. Many will also allow a legal substitute for the legal item, with the understanding that the legal item will be swapped out for the legal item after the fight has been posted. But as pitlord, the discretion is entirely yours. Handle the issue as you see fit.
MindWandererB 04-16-07, 01:28 AM	Anyone else having issues w/ the Dice roller? Yup. It and the mapper seem to be down again.
Zevox 04-16-07, 01:36 AM	Anyone else having issues w/ the Dice roller? Aye, its been down for the past few hours (I've been trying to peak at that FFA Arden's in, heh). Zevox
sonofzeal 04-16-07, 01:58 AM	Aye, its been down for the past few hours (I've been trying to peak at that FFA Arden's in, heh). Zevox The FFA's not going anywhere until the roller comes back. Actually, right now it's your Enervation rolls that are holding the whole thing up. For the record, my money is on you or Zwei.
Zevox 04-16-07, 02:27 AM	The FFA's not going anywhere until the roller comes back. Actually, right now it's your Enervation rolls that are holding the whole thing up. For the record, my money is on you or Zwei. Really? I wish I could be so sure of that. I don't think Zwei stands a chance, really - theres just no way to maintain hiding in the arena (I see Mitza is still making the mistake of thinking she can hide while within her hide ranks of cover), especially when the delay penalty kicks in, and if it comes down to her and Arden she can't hide from touchsight anyway. Unless whichever of the meleers that comes out alive is heavily wounded, I can't see her winning. For Arden though, I think it'll come down to if El Rapido spots him before Rubicanti, and if he gets good rolls when they engage (mostly the latter, though the former would be a great help). I know Arden can handle Rubicanti (and with his defenses and vigor, Zwei isn't even a concern), but El Rapido is another matter altogether, even with the minor mistakes he made in his tactics (such as missing Arden's armor spikes and asking to step closer to Arden to refocus if he uses his guisarme - heh, I hope that one bites him hard). So yeah, as you can guess, my money is on El Rapido. If by luck it isn't him though, I'd say Arden is a safe bet. Unless they basically kill each other, in which case it'll depend on whether Rubicanti spots Zwei before she snipes him out. Zevox
sonofzeal 04-16-07, 02:48 AM	Arden and Zwei are actively avoiding engagement early on, and Zwei later on too, meaning that the first real battle is most likely between El Rapido and Rubicanti, followed by the winner there engaging you. Consensus says El Rapido is the scariest, but I have faith that between Arden and Rubi (and possibly some snipes from Zwei), he'll go down simply because he'll be doing the most fighting. Assuming Zwei doesn't flub her hide checks, I see a good chance of her and you being the last two around, and if you've already taken damage from El Rapido then all bets are off for that fight, from where I'm sitting.
Zevox 04-16-07, 02:54 AM	Arden and Zwei are actively avoiding engagement early on, and Zwei later on too, meaning that the first real battle is most likely between El Rapido and Rubicanti, followed by the winner there engaging you. Consensus says El Rapido is the scariest, but I have faith that between Arden and Rubi (and possibly some snipes from Zwei), he'll go down simply because he'll be doing the most fighting. Assuming Zwei doesn't flub her hide checks, I see a good chance of her and you being the last two around, and if you've already taken damage from El Rapido then all bets are off for that fight, from where I'm sitting. If it goes like that, I can confidently say Arden will win. His defenses against her (AC 27 and resist 10 cold) are too tough for her to pierce, his touchsight will prevent her from hiding, and once he finds her she'll lose her bow fairly fast anyway, at which point she needs 20s to do anything to him. Still, that all depends on El Rapido and Rubicanti engaging and Arden managing to bring down El Rapido afterwards, and I have my doubts about whether it'll go like that. We'll just have to see I guess, eh? Should be interesting. Zevox
templer10 04-16-07, 04:51 AM	As pitlord, it is your option. The most common way to handle an illegal item is to simply deny access to that item. Many will also allow a legal substitute for the legal item, with the understanding that the legal item will be swapped out for the legal item after the fight has been posted. But as pitlord, the discretion is entirely yours. Handle the issue as you see fit. I just found an issue (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12110076&postcount=1178) on El Rapido's character sheet that may have a significant impact on the FFA fight I'm running. I've never reported anyone who was in a fight I was running before, so I thought I'd pop in here and ask what I should do about the fight in light of this. So.... yeah, what should I do about the fight in light of this? sonofzeal- the powerstone in question is meant to be powerstone of energy adaptation spesified (level 2 power) which indeed costs 150 GP, i reference to it in the tactics to use it as energy adaptation (fire), if it was the level 4 power i wouldnt have needed to mention which energy to adapt to since it gives energy ressistence 10 to all energy types.
templer10 04-16-07, 04:58 AM	Really? I wish I could be so sure of that. I don't think Zwei stands a chance, really - theres just no way to maintain hiding in the arena (I see Mitza is still making the mistake of thinking she can hide while within her hide ranks of cover), especially when the delay penalty kicks in, and if it comes down to her and Arden she can't hide from touchsight anyway. Unless whichever of the meleers that comes out alive is heavily wounded, I can't see her winning. For Arden though, I think it'll come down to if El Rapido spots him before Rubicanti, and if he gets good rolls when they engage (mostly the latter, though the former would be a great help). I know Arden can handle Rubicanti (and with his defenses and vigor, Zwei isn't even a concern), but El Rapido is another matter altogether, even with the minor mistakes he made in his tactics (such as missing Arden's armor spikes and asking to step closer to Arden to refocus if he uses his guisarme - heh, I hope that one bites him hard). So yeah, as you can guess, my money is on El Rapido. If by luck it isn't him though, I'd say Arden is a safe bet. Unless they basically kill each other, in which case it'll depend on whether Rubicanti spots Zwei before she snipes him out. Zevox do you threaten with armor spikes peeps near you? i always thought it's a grapple thing only- well will learn for the future- my 2 cents- great move on that wall wallking for rubicnati- totally didnt see that coming - But iam betting iam going to go down second just from the fact that everyone seems to gunning for poor old er rapido... (just as soon as i wipe the floor with the first unfourtente soul that comes my way).
Zevox 04-16-07, 09:17 AM	do you threaten with armor spikes peeps near you? i always thought it's a grapple thing only Yep, armor spikes are a regular weapon. Using them with a reach weapon is fairly common around here so you threaten adjacent spaces at all times. Arden is my first character to use them - hes the only one they've seemed appropriate on. But iam betting iam going to go down second just from the fact that everyone seems to gunning for poor old er rapido... Come now, you're exaggerating, not everyone is gunning for him. My tactics specifically mentioned you were the last preferred opponent, Rubicanti has Arden as his top priority, and Zwei doesn't care who she shoots. Zevox
Yitzi 04-16-07, 01:17 PM	Is there any use for Decipher Script?
hogarth 04-16-07, 01:18 PM	Is there any use for Decipher Script? Not in the arena. Maybe in a quest/campaign.
TelinArtho 04-16-07, 01:19 PM	Is there any use for Decipher Script? Not really. It is a prerequisite for Arcane Trixster. It also would help a character who intends on using Use Magic Device for scrolls - assuming he has enough ranks for the synergy.
Yitzi 04-16-07, 03:00 PM	Also, the rules in the PHB are a bit unclear about this: can you go into cover/concealment, hide, and then keep hiding when you leave cover/concealment? Also, if you have concealment, does your target lose their bonus to DEX?
Zevox 04-16-07, 03:02 PM	Also, the rules in the PHB are a bit unclear about this: can you go into cover/concealment, hide, and then keep hiding when you leave cover/concealment? Not unless you have hide in plain sight. You absolutely need cover or concealment to hide otherwise. Also, if you have concealment, does your target lose their bonus to DEX? Just having concealment won't do that, no. Being successfully hidden when you attack will cause them to lose dex (and dodge) to AC though, if thats what you meant. Zevox
templer10 04-16-07, 03:19 PM	Not unless you have hide in plain sight. You absolutely need cover or concealment to hide otherwise. Just having concealment won't do that, no. Being successfully hidden when you attack will cause them to lose dex (and dodge) to AC though, if thats what you meant. Zevox WEll you still are hiding for 1 feet per rank in hide if u have 5 or more ranks in hide if i understand it correctly.
Zevox 04-16-07, 03:22 PM	WEll you still are hiding for 1 feet per rank in hide if u have 5 or more ranks in hide if i understand it correctly. You don't. You can do that when making a bluff check to distract observers, but good luck with the sense motive bonus folks in combat with you are going to get (at least +10, for putting the target at significant risk). Otherwise we have a house rule that you can hide when within that distance of cover if you're moving from one cover spot to another. Thats it. Zevox
Yitzi 04-16-07, 03:26 PM	No, I think that's how far you can move to reach a hiding place while others are distracted-you still need to actually go there to hide. To quote the SRD (from d20srd.org): If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a -10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Zevox 04-16-07, 03:29 PM	Hm... good point Yitzi, it does seem to indicate such doesn't it? Never noticed that before. Well, that blows an even bigger hole in that one. Zevox
MindWandererB 04-16-07, 03:37 PM	You don't. You can do that when making a bluff check to distract observers, but good luck with the sense motive bonus folks in combat with you are going to get (at least +10, for putting the target at significant risk). Otherwise we have a house rule that you can hide when within that distance of cover if you're moving from one cover spot to another. Thats it. Zevox Does that +10 DC modifier apply to all uses of the Bluff skill? I wouldn't think so; otherwise, the combat uses become all but impossible. The "favorable and unfavorable circumstances" seem to refer only to the social use of the skill.
templer10 04-16-07, 03:44 PM	Does that +10 DC modifier apply to all uses of the Bluff skill? I wouldn't think so; otherwise, the combat uses become all but impossible. The "favorable and unfavorable circumstances" seem to refer only to the social use of the skill. i really wish it will be possible to rewrite the house rules about hide in combat- every time i have to pitlord some sneak i shudder since they are not very well written no offense. (especially in FFA situations in which you can be having cover from 1 person and not from other).
MindWandererB 04-16-07, 03:48 PM	i really wish it will be possible to rewrite the house rules about hide in combat- every time i have to pitlord some sneak i shudder since they are not very well written no offense. (especially in FFA situations in which you can be having cover from 1 person and not from other). Actually, we've trimmed most of the house rules out of the Hide rules. Our rules actually make Hide more powerful than RAW (although, arguably, we make MS weaker), since by RAW, the instant you leave cover, you're auto-spotted.
templer10 04-16-07, 03:54 PM	Actually, we've trimmed most of the house rules out of the Hide rules. Our rules actually make Hide more powerful than RAW (although, arguably, we make MS weaker), since by RAW, the instant you leave cover, you're auto-spotted. btw- when you snipe can you do full attack or just 1 attack?
Zevox 04-16-07, 03:56 PM	i really wish it will be possible to rewrite the house rules about hide in combat- every time i have to pitlord some sneak i shudder since they are not very well written no offense. (especially in FFA situations in which you can be having cover from 1 person and not from other). Meh, the only hide-affecting house rule we have I wish we'd change is the "attacks are listen DC 0" one that makes sneaking so much more difficult. With things like touchsight around hiding is already a tough strategy to pull off to begin with. Zevox
Zevox 04-16-07, 03:57 PM	btw- when you snipe can you do full attack or just 1 attack? Just one, unless you have access to the psionic power hustle. Hiding after sniping is a move action, so without that power you can't full attack and rehide in the same round. Zevox
templer10 04-16-07, 03:59 PM	Just one, unless you have access to the psionic power hustle. Hiding after sniping is a move action, so without that power you can't full attack and rehide in the same round. Zevox Good to know- i really really really hate to pitlord sneaks.
Yitzi 04-16-07, 04:06 PM	Meh, the only hide-affecting house rule we have I wish we'd change is the "attacks are listen DC 0" one that makes sneaking so much more difficult. With things like touchsight around hiding is already a tough strategy to pull off to begin with. Zevox Speaking of which, does touchsight prevent your blinded? It does not list it in the effects, but I would expect it would have that effect.
MindWandererB 04-16-07, 04:16 PM	Speaking of which, does touchsight prevent your blinded? It does not list it in the effects, but I would expect it would have that effect. That's hilarious. You're absolutely correct: by all even remotely reasonable logic, it should work even if you are blinded. But it doesn't say that at all. You generate a subtle telekinetic field of mental contact, allowing you to “feel” your surroundings even in total darkness or when your sight would otherwise be obscured by your physical environment. Your touchsight field emanates from you out to 60 feet. You ignore invisibility, darkness, and concealment, though you must have line of effect to a creature or an object to discern it. You do not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice creatures; you can detect and pinpoint all creatures within 60 feet. In many circumstances, comparing your regular senses to what you learn with touchsight is enough to tell you the difference between visible, invisible, hiding, and concealed creatures. The bolded part is the only bit that suggests that it helps with blindness; the underlined parts somehow seem to avoid it.
Yitzi 04-16-07, 04:19 PM	So, what is the rule? Does it or does it not help with blindness?
templer10 04-16-07, 04:28 PM	So, what is the rule? Does it or does it not help with blindness? well the generel description of the power sounds very similar to blindesight which negates blindness so if it was up to me (and it isnt) i would say yes.
Yitzi 04-16-07, 04:31 PM	Or maybe the fact that it is so similar, but omits mention of negating blindness, means the omission was intentional and it does not negate blindness. Should I post this in the Courthouse?
templer10 04-16-07, 04:36 PM	Or maybe the fact that it is so similar, but omits mention of negating blindness, means the omission was intentional and it does not negate blindness. Should I post this in the Courthouse? Blindness itself is easly negated by anyone who can also cast/use powerstone of touchsight so i personally dont see the point of limiting touchsight but what do i know.
MindWandererB 04-16-07, 04:38 PM	Or maybe the fact that it is so similar, but omits mention of negating blindness, means the omission was intentional and it does not negate blindness. Should I post this in the Courthouse? The sentence that I put in bold suggests that even though they forgot to mention blindness, you pinpoint everything in range no matter what. So yes, it does help with blindness.
Hirumajoe 04-16-07, 05:15 PM	The sentence that I put in bold suggests that even though they forgot to mention blindness, you pinpoint everything in range no matter what. So yes, it does help with blindness. The reason they say it doesn't negate blindness, is probably because that would allow you to see beyond the 60' presumably. It does negate Invisibility, Darkness and concealment. The effects of Blindness are a combination of those. In total Darkness, your speed drops to half. Same with blindness. You lose -2 to AC and your Dex bonus to AC, effectively the same thing as invisibility for your opponent, and it negates the concealment including the 50% miss chance due to total concealment. I'd argue that it effectively eliminates all the associated problems with blindness out to 60'. Since being in total darkness is functionally the same as being blind.
Zevox 04-16-07, 05:18 PM	Meh, anyone who can use Touchsight can also use Synsthete, so it seems to me like how Touchsight works with blindess is a bit immaterial anyway. Zevox
Hirumajoe 04-16-07, 05:24 PM	Meh, anyone who can use Touchsight can also use Synsthete, so it seems to me like how Touchsight works with blindess is a bit immaterial anyway. Zevox But thats an extra powerstone or an extra action to activate or an extra 1pp. Or if a dispel removes Synsthete but not Touchsight. Or a burglar removed all the synsthete powerstones. In principle, it could matter. :)
Zevox 04-16-07, 05:26 PM	But thats an extra powerstone or an extra action to activate or an extra 1pp. Or if a dispel removes Synsthete but not Touchsight. Or a burglar removed all the synsthete powerstones. In principle, it could matter. :) Thats why I said "a bit". I don't doubt strange circumstances could occur where you'd not have synsthete but would have touchsight, they're just not going to be occurring often ;) . Zevox
McJarvis 04-16-07, 07:21 PM	It just occurred to me that at ECL 3 I could easily afford two or three light warhorses & effectively shield himself from losing an ally mid-3FC. Not sure if this needs to be corrected(somehow I doubt we'll be changing the rules to balance ECL 3), but whatever...
hogarth 04-16-07, 07:27 PM	It just occurred to me that at ECL 3 I could easily afford two or three light warhorses & effectively shield himself from losing an ally mid-3FC. Not sure if this needs to be corrected(somehow I doubt we'll be changing the rules to balance ECL 3), but whatever... Reginald Molehusband is amassing a stable full of allies for just such an eventuality. His 3FC will eventually look like: Fight 1: Horses + some other allies (maybe followers) Fight 2: Diplomacy ally (shadow or dragon) + some other allies (maybe followers) Fight 3: Cohort -- since this is fight 3 of the cycle and the cohort shares the master's cycle, she can use all of her spells/power points in a mini-nova!
Zevox 04-16-07, 07:31 PM	It just occurred to me that at ECL 3 I could easily afford two or three light warhorses & effectively shield himself from losing an ally mid-3FC. Not sure if this needs to be corrected(somehow I doubt we'll be changing the rules to balance ECL 3), but whatever... Yup, you can do that. Why would we change it though? Its not like thats a problem. If you want to pay for 2 or 3 allies that will likely be obsolete in only a few levels (how easy is it for someone at level 6 or higher to kill a light warhorse?), go ahead I say. I did so with Ceilia, and she hasn't had to use her backup horse yet, and now I doubt she ever will (in the next level or two she'll be buying a [probably advanced] Griffon that'll serve as her primary mount for the rest of her career, and if he ever dies she still has her Hippogriff and her original horse). Zevox
McJarvis 04-16-07, 07:38 PM	Put it this way: For 300 extra gp you can always have your horse throughout levels 3&4. I'm not suggesting that there's a benefit beyond this-> but that's not much to pay for such peace of mind. If you're less of an a pessimist, 150 gp will get you a spare.
Yitzi 04-16-07, 09:57 PM	Where are the rules about creating magic items with free/full activities? I can't seem to find them.
Zevox 04-16-07, 10:02 PM	Where are the rules about creating magic items with free/full activities? I can't seem to find them. The same place as the rules about creating non-magical items - in the "skills and feats" post of the rules, under the crafting rules. Zevox
Yitzi 04-16-07, 10:16 PM	Thanks, thought it would be in S&F but for some reason I missed that. Another question: The rules say "You can likewise only craft items or do other Full Activities at the end of the Cycle. " Does this mean crafting that is not a full activity can be done in-cycle or not? If not, is free activity crafting done in the same week as the first battle of the 3FC or the last? On a related note, how do we deal with the spells you need to give up to craft items? Does it matter if it's in- or out-of- cycle or a free or full action? e.g. if I want to craft several scrolls, do I have to have those spells memorized, and do I lose them for my next battle if it's in-cycle? And if it's out-of-cycle, can I craft more level 1 scrolls than I have level 1 spell slots? More than 7 times as many? (some of these questions may be inapplicable, depending on the answer to question 1) On yet another related note, if you have expendables under "equipment at home" does it count toward your limit? And on a completely unrelated note: The rules for guilds seem to completely omit the primary method how guilds earn gold. Looking at the accounting, it seems that it is from structures, and proportional to efficiency, but I can't figure out the formula for what you multiply efficiency by to get income.
Roulex 04-16-07, 11:59 PM	Hey all, I've just posted my first character onto the boards, and I was wondering if some of ya'll could take a look. Any advice would be nice--I'm aiming to get the Assassin class ASAP, but I'm thinking that lvl of fighter along the way would be nice for BAB and feats. Very focused on dealing damage through poisons and the death attack. Any advice at all would be very hot :) Char sheet is at : http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12121237&postcount=1109
sonofzeal 04-17-07, 12:15 AM	Hey all, I've just posted my first character onto the boards, and I was wondering if some of ya'll could take a look. Any advice would be nice--I'm aiming to get the Assassin class ASAP, but I'm thinking that lvl of fighter along the way would be nice for BAB and feats. Very focused on dealing damage through poisons and the death attack. Any advice at all would be very hot :) Char sheet is at : http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12121237&postcount=1109 Mmmm.... the character definitelly looks cool, and would probably rock in a Table Top environment, but I'm not sure how well he'll do here. Death Attack doesn't strike me as the most practical thing in an arena - most gladiators are going to be constantly moving around, so unless you've got something up your sleeve you might want to reconcider that aspect. On that note, a number of your skills are more useful in a TT game than here in the coliseum, such as Disguise, especially since you don't have Bluff to back it up for the Assassinate package. Check here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6466576#post6466576) for skill packages that are used here. Stealth character can definitelly work, but be aware that your +1 dagger probably won't get much action whatsoever. Sniping is where it's at for you.
Abyssal Stalker 04-17-07, 12:20 AM	Reginald Molehusband is amassing a stable full of allies for just such an eventuality. His 3FC will eventually look like: Fight 1: Horses + some other allies (maybe followers) Fight 2: Diplomacy ally (shadow or dragon) + some other allies (maybe followers) Fight 3: Cohort -- since this is fight 3 of the cycle and the cohort shares the master's cycle, she can use all of her spells/power points in a mini-nova! I remember a discussion that allies would be restricted by the 3FC as well as main characters, but so that they would have their own cycle that resets at the same time as the main character's. That would prevent your idea of Myoxus going nova, because she would have only 1/3 to use. I don't remember if this was put into effect, but I seem to recall that it gained some support.
Yitzi 04-17-07, 12:24 AM	Just want to make sure nobody has forgotten about my question a few posts up...
Zevox 04-17-07, 12:27 AM	Thanks, thought it would be in S&F but for some reason I missed that. Another question: The rules say "You can likewise only craft items or do other Full Activities at the end of the Cycle. " Does this mean crafting that is not a full activity can be done in-cycle or not? If not, is free activity crafting done in the same week as the first battle of the 3FC or the last? Of course you can craft as a free activity in-cycle - theres no other way to do a free activity. It doesn't matter which fight you do the crafting in though, you're not allowed to use anything made mid-cycle until the cycle is complete (which is why mid-cycle crafting is rare nowadays). On a related note, how do we deal with the spells you need to give up to craft items? Does it matter if it's in- or out-of- cycle or a free or full action? e.g. if I want to craft several scrolls, do I have to have those spells memorized, and do I lose them for my next battle if it's in-cycle? And if it's out-of-cycle, can I craft more level 1 scrolls than I have level 1 spell slots? More than 7 times as many? (some of these questions may be inapplicable, depending on the answer to question 1) In short, you're not penalized for those things at all, though its an unwritten rule. Crafting mid-cycle doesn't require giving up spells, and though its not a common thing to begin with (I guess a Ranger, Paladin, or Blackguard crafter might have it happen) crafting so many things that you've used more spells than would be possible in the time you're spending isn't penalized either. On yet another related note, if you have expendables under "equipment at home" does it count toward your limit? Yes. The cap is on how much you can own, not on how much you can bring with you. And on a completely unrelated note: The rules for guilds seem to completely omit the primary method how guilds earn gold. Looking at the accounting, it seems that it is from structures, and proportional to efficiency, but I can't figure out the formula for what you multiply efficiency by to get income. It is structures that the primary income means, yes (that should be obvious I think, given they're the only decent consistent form of income the Guilds have). The formula is in the rules about structures, in the sblock that gives the efficiency in the first place (its one of the footnotes). Zevox
Vathelokai 04-17-07, 01:13 AM	Hey all, I've just posted my first character onto the boards, and I was wondering if some of ya'll could take a look. Any advice would be nice--I'm aiming to get the Assassin class ASAP, but I'm thinking that lvl of fighter along the way would be nice for BAB and feats. Very focused on dealing damage through poisons and the death attack. Any advice at all would be very hot :) Char sheet is at : http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12121237&postcount=1109 I'd recommend going with a longbow instead of a crossbow; the reload time will kill you, and the damage is comparable. You may intend to do one poison shot then go to melee if you have to, but your opponent may force you into a ranged fight. I'd get that strength up to 10. A negative on all you're damage rolls is bad stuff (I notice that's mission from your dagger, by the way). Not to mention the encumberance. You have armor listed in your AC, but none anywhere on the sheet. Your fort save should be one point higher (fighter lv 1 is off). Grapple dosn't include your str negative. I'd drop a couple of skills and increase the ranks across the board, though that is a personal choice. As suggested above, take a long look at what our house rules for skills are. Calthrops are not very usefull in arena fights, and weigh alot. Most maps are designed for large creatures, so the only way to use them effectively is to stand in a corner and circle yourself (and that won't slow down a reach weapon). There's a couple instances where they could be usefull, but not many (throw them in front of you to block charges maybe? Block yourself in a corner in the city map?). I'd suggest putting them in the "at home" section of your sheet. You can always put in your tactics that you want to bring them. Note on equipment: even though you have it listed in the attacks section, you also need to but your weapons in the equipment section (with price and weight). This goes for anything you own. Redundant, but easier to double check (such as when figuring your total weight on a mount or checking to see if you have spent more GP then you have). note the house rules on crafting poisons Poisonmaking and Alchemy: With Craft poisonmaking, you can craft any non-magical poison listed in the DMG, p297. The cost of raw materials is 1/2 of the base price. There is no chance for failure and you complete it much faster. To create a poison, you need to have a Craft Poisonmaking skill modifier of at least as high as the respective poison's DC. For example, if you want to craft carrion crawler brain juice poison (Dc13), you would have to have a Craft poisonmaking modifier of +13 or more. You can buy an alchemist's lab (500 gp) which gives you a +2 circumstance bonus on craft poisonmaking. my experience with crafting poisons is that you won't be making much more than drow poison and crawler juice for a while. Those are more potent at lower levels anyway, so I'd look into getting the modifier high enough ASAP. Welcome to the fray.
Vathelokai 04-17-07, 02:03 AM	Was thinking more on incoporeal creatures: It's my understanding that they can use non-slotted items, Ioun stones for example. Can they use most non slotted items? Could a incorporeal caster engulf a pearl of power that was laying on the ground and activate it? Could they activate a figurine of wonderous power? On similar lines, could they activate any old magic item if it was just laying there. For example a incoporeal caster occupies the same space as a wand of mage armor. Could the wand be activated? Or a custom item, non-slotted and 50 charges; could they activate that?
MindWandererB 04-17-07, 02:04 AM	It is structures that the primary income means, yes (that should be obvious I think, given they're the only decent consistent form of income the Guilds have). The formula is in the rules about structures, in the sblock that gives the efficiency in the first place (its one of the footnotes).I don't know that it's that obvious--when the new rules were debuted, it took me a little while to figure that out. Cat took it for granted, I think. It's basically efficiency * district traits. You can only do full activities, crafting or otherwise, between cycles.
Abyssal Stalker 04-17-07, 04:05 AM	Calthrops are not very usefull in arena fights, and weigh alot. Most maps are designed for large creatures, so the only way to use them effectively is to stand in a corner and circle yourself (and that won't slow down a reach weapon). There's a couple instances where they could be usefull, but not many (throw them in front of you to block charges maybe? Block yourself in a corner in the city map?). I'd suggest putting them in the "at home" section of your sheet. You can always put in your tactics that you want to bring them.Eh, this doesn't sound legal. If it is at home, then it is at home. If you want to bring something, you have to carry it (or have someone else carry it for you). Remember the armor discussion?
hogarth 04-17-07, 06:34 AM	I remember a discussion that allies would be restricted by the 3FC as well as main characters, but so that they would have their own cycle that resets at the same time as the main character's. That would prevent your idea of Myoxus going nova, because she would have only 1/3 to use. I don't remember if this was put into effect, but I seem to recall that it gained some support. To my recollection, there were various things proposed (like cohorts having their own 3FC), but nothing was changed in the end. I could be wrong, of course.
Abyssal Stalker 04-17-07, 07:14 AM	To my recollection, there were various things proposed (like cohorts having their own 3FC), but nothing was changed in the end. I could be wrong, of course. I guess it was never added to the rules. Yes, there was several suggestions. I think that the simplest solution would be the one that I mention in my earlier post. I really think that this rule should be put into effect. Or just add a plain 1/3 restriction for allies if that seems simpler.
hogarth 04-17-07, 08:27 AM	I guess it was never added to the rules. Yes, there was several suggestions. I think that the simplest solution would be the one that I mention in my earlier post. I really think that this rule should be put into effect. Or just add a plain 1/3 restriction for allies if that seems simpler. Either sounds reasonable to me. You'll have to make a formal proposal in the Council thread, I guess.
TelinArtho 04-17-07, 09:40 AM	I'd suggest putting them in the "at home" section of your sheet. You can always put in your tactics that you want to bring them. Tsk Tsk Vath - this is no longer allowed. If something is "at home" then you cannot bring it with you in the current week's fight.
Roulex 04-17-07, 10:59 AM	I'm made some changes to my character, moving attributes around a bit, changes to the skills to be more in line with the free actions, and making the character more well-rounded instead of relying on his dagger (added poisons too). Changed the errors pointed out as well. Could some of you guys give it another once-over and let me know if it's good to go? Any advice is hot too :) The link is: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12121237&postcount=1109
TelinArtho 04-17-07, 11:12 AM	Hide is not a class skill for fighters - so your six skill points from Fighter will only result in 3 ranks in hide, not 6. Your saving throws should be +4 Fort (+2 Con, +2 Fighter), +7 Ref (+4 dex, +3 Rogue), and +0. The Fort is off and the breakdown for both Fort and Ref are incorrect. Your search skill lists Dex as the attribute, but it should be Int and the result should be a +9, not +6. Since the Disguise Kit is not a constant bonus (ie - only 10 uses), you probably should list it as a conditional modifier. If you are trying for the Assassinate package - in order to benefit from the kit you would need to list the kit as being used in your prebuffs. In the CoCo, you are limited to your ECL2*50gp for expendables on your sheet at any given moment. Expendables that are restricted include Powerstones, Scrolls, Potions and Tattoos. For an ECL3 charater - you are therefore limited to 450gp. The scrolls you have on your sheet cost 750gp - so you are 300gp over the limit.
sonofzeal 04-17-07, 11:25 AM	I'm made some changes to my character, moving attributes around a bit, changes to the skills to be more in line with the free actions, and making the character more well-rounded instead of relying on his dagger (added poisons too). Changed the errors pointed out as well. Could some of you guys give it another once-over and let me know if it's good to go? Any advice is hot too :) The link is: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12121237&postcount=1109 Watch that Expendables limit; you can't carry more that 450 gp in expendables, and you have 1127. Also, I don't see how you plan on using those scrolls of darkness with your Use Magic Device check of 3. If you're looking for something to spend money on, I see no reason for you to pass up on a masterwork light shield/buckler, or even a mithral heavy shield.
TelinArtho 04-17-07, 11:28 AM	Watch that Expendables limit; you can't carry more that 450 gp in expendables, and you have 1127. Also, I don't see how you plan on using those scrolls of darkness with your Use Magic Device check of 3. If you're looking for something to spend money on, I see no reason for you to pass up on a masterwork light shield/buckler, or even a mithral heavy shield. His poison and caltrops do not count against his expendables limit. Only scrolls, potions, powerstones and tattoos do.
Abyssal Stalker 04-17-07, 11:28 AM	I'm made some changes to my character, moving attributes around a bit, changes to the skills to be more in line with the free actions, and making the character more well-rounded instead of relying on his dagger (added poisons too). Changed the errors pointed out as well. Could some of you guys give it another once-over and let me know if it's good to go? Any advice is hot too :) The link is: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12121237&postcount=1109 Why don't you use a short sword instead of a dagger? You are proficient with it and you can use weapon finesse with it. It has a better damage dice and the same threat range. You can't throw it efficiently, but I doubt that a situation like that would occur.
TelinArtho 04-17-07, 12:24 PM	What is the duration of the Summon Devil and Summon Demon abilities of Devils and Demons respectively? I don't see it listed in the description or in an errata.
hogarth 04-17-07, 12:25 PM	What is the duration of the Summon Devil and Summon Demon abilities of Devils and Demons respectively? I don't see it listed in the description or in an errata. 1 hour. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#summon
TelinArtho 04-17-07, 12:27 PM	Ah - missed that part. Thanks
Erithmu 04-17-07, 12:27 PM	Edit: Nothing to see here ....
Roulex 04-17-07, 01:24 PM	Fixed those up. Thanks for comments again all. So, exactly how do I go about burglary and notifying both parties for my free action? :) (sheet is at: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12121237&postcount=1109)
TelinArtho 04-17-07, 01:32 PM	Simple - put Burglary and the OL and Search values in your title line (see Ilendil Oratith, ECL3 for an example). After pairings, check your OL versus the opponents ECL+5 and OL values separately. If your opponent is "Guarding" as a free activity, add 5 to both those numbers. If your OL is greater than their ECL+5 and OL separately, you successfully steal. If you are successful, you look over your opponent's expendables (only those under the expendable cap - so only Scrolls, Potions, Powerstones and Tattoos) and remove items from their list up to your search value. For instance, Ilendil has +10 in search, so he can steal 10*17 = 170gp worth of stuff (the multiplier is listed with the burglary skill in the Skills and Feats section of the SRD). His opponent has a scroll of Mirror Image (CL3) (150gp), 2 scrolls of Mage Armor (CL1) (25gp each) and a multispell scroll with Web (CL3) and 4 castings of Ray of Enfeeblement (CL1) (250gp). He could steal the one scroll of Mirror Image, but nothing else; alternatively, he could steal both scrolls of Mage Armor and nothing else. He could not steal the multispell scroll since it costs too much on its own. Once you have decided on what to steal, send a PM to the Pitlord and the opponent(s) involved with your decisions. For instance, here's a PM I sent last week before I reset Ilendil to ECL3: Burglary! TIM is unpleasantly surprised to find the following items missing from his expendables: Scroll: Alter Self (Troglodyte) (CL3) [150gp] 2 Scrolls: Shield (CL1) [50gp total]
templer10 04-17-07, 04:39 PM	could someone remind me how DC for wands and scrolls work- do they use my DC or minimum able to cast DC?
TelinArtho 04-17-07, 04:40 PM	Wands and scrolls use the minimum; Staves use your personal or the minimum whichever is better.
Zevox 04-17-07, 04:43 PM	could someone remind me how DC for wands and scrolls work- do they use my DC or minimum able to cast DC? Minimum, which is why you rarely see scrolls or wands of save-or-dies around here (that 4.5k you pay for a Wand of Hold Person seems a little steep since its only a DC 13 save). Zevox
templer10 04-17-07, 04:55 PM	Minimum, which is why you rarely see scrolls or wands of save-or-dies around here (that 4.5k you pay for a Wand of Hold Person seems a little steep since its only a DC 13 save). Zevox yea but 4.5k for a wand of extended produce flame (sonic) isnt half bad.
TelinArtho 04-17-07, 04:57 PM	I think I would prefer a wand of Produce Flame (Sonic) (CL5) rather than a wand of Extended Produce Flame (Sonic) (CL3). 1d6+5 damage per hit with one less per charge and it only costs 3750gp.
Zevox 04-17-07, 05:00 PM	yea but 4.5k for a wand of extended produce flame (sonic) isnt half bad. True, but you're also paying credits for that (at least unless Cat decides to truly not return and we can convince MWB to overturn that restriction). Zevox
sonofzeal 04-17-07, 05:01 PM	True, but you're also paying credits for that (at least unless Cat decides to truly not return and we can convince MWB to overturn that restriction). Zevox Has Cat ever left like this before?
templer10 04-17-07, 05:01 PM	I think I would prefer a wand of Produce Flame (Sonic) (CL5) rather than a wand of Extended Produce Flame (Sonic) (CL3). 1d6+5 damage per hit with one less per charge and it only costs 3750gp. Good point.
TelinArtho 04-17-07, 05:06 PM	Has Cat ever left like this before? Not since I've been here. I remember hearing about a bit of a scandal before - but I think that was what put Cat into power (as in the previous GM/Elder(s) might have been scheming something). Not sure though - that predates my coming here in August of 2005.
Zevox 04-17-07, 05:14 PM	Has Cat ever left like this before? Nope. From what I've heard, hes essentially been here continuously since nearly the beginning of the Coliseum. Only Tellish_of_Ket has been here as long, and hes had some periods of extended absence. Zevox
MindWandererB 04-17-07, 05:15 PM	A couple of us were around that long ago... Tellish and Sindorin, I think... all I know is that Moherajiyux hasn't even stuck his head in since... I gather it was most unfriendly.
Zevox 04-17-07, 05:19 PM	A couple of us were around that long ago... Tellish and Sindorin, I think... all I know is that Moherajiyux hasn't even stuck his head in since... I gather it was most unfriendly. Now thats not quite true. I recall him popping by with a quick hello some months ago. He just didn't stay longer than the time it took to make a tavern post to say hi and congratulate Cat on doing a good job. Zevox
TaggIIV 04-17-07, 05:27 PM	Can items designated as "at home" be switched to actively carried between fights in the same cycle? And vice versa?
Zevox 04-17-07, 05:30 PM	Can items designated as "at home" be switched to actively carried between fights in the same cycle? And vice versa? Yup. They just can't be switched after pairings are rolled. Zevox
Yitzi 04-17-07, 06:17 PM	The following question came up in a dispute regarding someone's character sheet (at CoCo): You get bonus power points equal to your key ability modifier times your manifester level divided by 2. The question is, is that the value you get per level, or the total value of pp from ability scores? For example, would a level 10 psychic warrior with 18 wisdom get 2+4+6+8+10+12+14+16+18+20=110 bonus power points (in addition to his 27 pp from psychic warrior) or just 10X4/2=20?
Zevox 04-17-07, 06:22 PM	The following question came up in a dispute regarding someone's character sheet (at CoCo): You get bonus power points equal to your key ability modifier times your manifester level divided by 2. The question is, is that the value you get per level, or the total value of pp from ability scores? For example, would a level 10 psychic warrior with 18 wisdom get 2+4+6+8+10+12+14+16+18+20=110 bonus power points (in addition to his 27 pp from psychic warrior) or just 10X4/2=20? :confused: Where are you getting this formula from? (Edit: Oh, its above the table in the SRD. Heh.) Theres a table in the SRD (and XPH) that lists how many bonus pp you get for a high ability score (here (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicClasses.html)) (an 18 wisdom 10th level manifester gets 20 bonus pp by it). Zevox
MindWandererB 04-17-07, 06:26 PM	:confused: Where are you getting this formula from? (Edit: Oh, its above the table in the SRD. Heh.) Theres a table in the SRD (and XPH) that lists how many bonus pp you get for a high ability score (here (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicClasses.html)) (an 18 wisdom 10th level manifester gets 20 bonus pp by it). Zevox Right... to answer your question more directly, the table lists your total bonus, not just the increase for that level; it's noncumulative.
hogarth 04-17-07, 06:27 PM	The following question came up in a dispute regarding someone's character sheet (at CoCo): You get bonus power points equal to your key ability modifier times your manifester level divided by 2. The question is, is that the value you get per level, or the total value of pp from ability scores? That number is the total bonus -- it's not cumulative. EDIT: ninja'ed again
Yitzi 04-17-07, 06:37 PM	Thank you, that's what I thought.
Yitzi 04-17-07, 06:41 PM	Another question: how exactly does one use caltrops? Is it a free action to scatter them, move action, standard? And how many can you scatter at once, and how far away?
Hirumajoe 04-17-07, 06:47 PM	Another question: how exactly does one use caltrops? Is it a free action to scatter them, move action, standard? And how many can you scatter at once, and how far away? The way I've used them once in the past is as a move action to pull out and a free action to drop in an adjacent (or where ever you have reach) square. Whether thats official or not, dunno, just have seen it done that way once. Arguably, it might be move/move under the manipulate item action. I.e. Move to retrieve and move to empty out the bag.
Hirumajoe 04-17-07, 09:18 PM	Dumb question, what qualifies as "active" for a character for guild purposes? Any sort of activation, incluing crafting or what not? Or actual fights? Thanks.
MindWandererB 04-17-07, 09:31 PM	Dumb question, what qualifies as "active" for a character for guild purposes? Any sort of activation, incluing crafting or what not? Or actual fights? Thanks. For guild purposes (not getting booted out for inactivity), it has to be a fight, quest, miniquest, or campaign. For credit purposes, crafting counts.
waywreth 04-18-07, 08:59 AM	How do remaining spell levels work if you level mid-cycle? I'm assuming I have whatever I didn't use in the prior week(s), plus the new number available for this week and following weeks, but I wanted to confirm.
Erithmu 04-18-07, 09:07 AM	How do remaining spell levels work if you level mid-cycle? I'm assuming I have whatever I didn't use in the prior week(s), plus the new number available for this week and following weeks, but I wanted to confirm.Right
hogarth 04-18-07, 09:23 AM	What's the policy on rolling caster level checks outside of the arena? For instance, say Kilpquabjeg bought a scroll of Simulacrum to create a duplicate of a solar. (Bad example since the CR is too high for the arena, but just go with it. :P) How would I go about rolling the necessary caster level check outside of combat?
TelinArtho 04-18-07, 09:36 AM	In general it just isn't allowed if it is something that will be game affecting. If you are making skill checks and such to enrich the roleplay (as Book5 did on a number of occasions) - there's no issue there - but for something that actually affects the game - it hasn't been allowed yet. Now - if you want to do something specific - propose it and we'll see what we can do about it (maybe a miniquest would suffice for instance).
hogarth 04-18-07, 09:45 AM	Now - if you want to do something specific - propose it and we'll see what we can do about it (maybe a miniquest would suffice for instance). I was just idly wondering about using scrolls of Simulacrum and Animate Dead before those spells are available normally. Animate Dead is not so much of an issue since you can always try casting it during an arena fight, or you can even get it in potion/oil form if you're willing to fork out the credits. But since the higher level leagues are opening soon (in theory), I'm wondering if we'll see a bunch of efreeti simulacra popping up. (Wish 3/day? Sign me up!)
templer10 04-18-07, 09:47 AM	I was just idly wondering about using scrolls of Simulacrum and Animate Dead before those spells are available normally. Animate Dead is not so much of an issue since you can always try casting it during an arena fight, or you can even get it in potion/oil form if you're willing to fork out the credits. But since the higher level leagues are opening soon (in theory), I'm wondering if we'll see a bunch of efreeti simulacra popping up. (Wish 3/day? Sign me up!) yea - that's going to get banned six ways to sundey i imagine.
Rauul 04-18-07, 09:47 AM	Question... whats the cost to add Flame/shock/frost to a Masterworked weapon... is it 1000 for +1+1000 for the element? or just 1000 gold for the element? And does it cost credits?
TelinArtho 04-18-07, 09:50 AM	To add Flame/Frost/Shock or any other enhancement - the weapon must be magical already - so the weapon must be +1 or better. +1 is 2000gp, 1000gp if you craft it. To add them after that - it would be 6000gp or another 3000gp if you craft it.
TelinArtho 04-18-07, 02:20 PM	Is there a restriction on combining Domain Specialist with one of the specialist variants? For instance a Necromancy Domain Wizard with the Undead minion variant?
MindWandererB 04-18-07, 02:25 PM	It wouldn't technically be allowed. To use the undead minion, you have to specialize in the school of necromancy, not the domain. They're two different things.
TelinArtho 04-18-07, 02:30 PM	Hence the reason I asked - I wouldn't want to design a character using both and then find out that they are combinable... (Note that the Battle Sorcerer and the Sorcerer variant have been combined before - which is why I asked...)
MindWandererB 04-18-07, 02:40 PM	Hence the reason I asked - I wouldn't want to design a character using both and then find out that they are combinable... (Note that the Battle Sorcerer and the Sorcerer variant have been combined before - which is why I asked...) Those two can be combined because there's no reason why not. But if you're a domain specialist, then you're not a school specialist, and if you're not a school specialist, then you can't use the alternate abilities for school specialists. You can combine any optional material you like as long as one of your choices doesn't make another one illegal.
Macbrea 04-18-07, 03:39 PM	I have an odd question on requirements for a robe of archmagi: Strong varied; CL 14th; Craft Wondrous Item, antimagic field, mage armor or shield of faith, creator must be of same alignment as robe; Price 75,000 gp;Weight 1 lb. Is the only requirement ability to cast mage armor, craft wonderous and same alignment? hmmmm..
Yitzi 04-18-07, 03:42 PM	and ability to cast antimagic field, and CL 14.
Macbrea 04-18-07, 03:44 PM	CL 14 isn't a requirement. And in english we break up our sentences as 'antimagic field, mage armor or shield of faith' means 'antimagic field or mage armor or shield of faith'.
Deathspell_Omega 04-18-07, 03:49 PM	Is the only requirement ability to cast mage armor, craft wonderous and same alignment? hmmmm..And Antimagic Field. I know it's worded oddly, but see the absence of pointed comma before antimagic field too? We used the robe in one of my games, and we decided that it was only logical that it should include Antimagic Field too.
hogarth 04-18-07, 03:50 PM	CL 14 isn't a requirement. And in english we break up our sentences as 'antimagic field, mage armor or shield of faith' means 'antimagic field or mage armor or shield of faith'. In the context of spells required for creating a magic item, the entries are separated by commas only (there is never any "and" in the list). The use of "or" is just to ensure that the robe can be created by either a cleric or a wizard, IMO. For instance, look at the list of requirements for the Horn of the Tritons: Craft Wondrous Item, fear, summon monster V, control water, creator must be a triton or get construction aid from a triton Does that mean that if I get aid from a triton I don't need any of the other things? Including the Craft Wondrous Item feat?
Yitzi 04-18-07, 03:56 PM	From a language perspective, it could mean either way, since multiple requirements areseperated by only a comma. And from a logical point of view, it makes more sense that the antimagic field is needed to provide the SR and saving throw bonus, whereas the sheild/mage armor is required to provide the AC. Similarly, I find it hard to believe that the Robe of Stars (which has similar language) requires only magic missile or astral projection or plane shift, despite the fact that it gives an astral travel effect and an effect similar to magic missile. This also explains why armor of invulnerability (requires "stoneskin, wish or miracle") always has abjuration, whereas evocation is only if miracle is used-it always has stoneskin, but may have or may not have miracle. I also find it unlikely that you can create an item with CL higher than your own, I seem to remember something of the sort stated explicitly, but I can't find it.
Macbrea 04-18-07, 03:59 PM	the CL listed has been stated many times as not a reqirement to create an item. I can accept that antimagic field is a requirement. Though that is very poorly written.
hogarth 04-18-07, 04:01 PM	I also find it unlikely that you can create an item with CL higher than your own, I seem to remember something of the sort stated explicitly, but I can't find it. Whether that's true in general or not, in the CoCo the caster level is not a requirement except in cases like ioun stones where it explicitly states "Creator must be Nth level".
Macbrea 04-18-07, 04:05 PM	Well, it's not just here we follow the FAQ: Quote FAQ: The rules for magic item creation permit a character creating an item to use scrolls, wands, or even another caster as the source of the spells to be placed in the item. The rules do not, however, state clearly whether the character crafting the item has to be of a level sufficient to cast a given spell. Is the caster level of the character with the item creation feat being used to create the item (the “creator”) a limit on the power of the item? For example, can a 3rd-level wizard with the Craft Wondrous Item feat create items containing any spell (assuming access to the spells by other means), or is he limited to 2nd-level spells? Unless stated specifically, items never have a minimum caster level as a prerequisite. (The “CL” entry is the default caster level of the item, not a requirement for creation.) A 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item could create a harp of charming (even though he’s not high-enough level to cast suggestion, a prerequisite for creation), as long he had access to the suggestion spell during creation (such as from an item or another character). So, even Wizards has stated that is true.
Roulex 04-18-07, 04:44 PM	I just joined earlier this week, notified the pitlords, etc. Just checked the pairings for this weeks battles, and my character (Roulex Dalus) isn't on there... is this normal to miss a week? What are the repercussions for my character? Am I able to change his actions be something productive besides fighting since he's not in the pairings? Thanks for any replies in advance :)
hogarth 04-18-07, 04:52 PM	I just joined earlier this week, notified the pitlords, etc. Just checked the pairings for this weeks battles, and my character (Roulex Dalus) isn't on there... is this normal to miss a week? What are the repercussions for my character? Am I able to change his actions be something productive besides fighting since he's not in the pairings? Thanks for any replies in advance :) You put your "ready for fight" message in the body of your post when it should go in the title line. Email Pitlords/MWB and he'll probably be able to sneak you into this week's pairings, I would imagine.
MindWandererB 04-18-07, 05:28 PM	You put your "ready for fight" message in the body of your post when it should go in the title line. Email Pitlords/MWB and he'll probably be able to sneak you into this week's pairings, I would imagine. I got it. - Roulex Dalus (Roulex) vs. Unknown Monster : Malither76 [Arena]
Roulex 04-18-07, 05:44 PM	Thanks!
Maraxus 04-18-07, 06:15 PM	Wow, I just saw Antalya. A Were-Porpoise .... Another massive example for evil munchkinnism. :rolleyes: Sure porpoises have 120 ft blindsight, but damn - underwater. They just did not mention it, because they expect everybody to know, that everybody knows porpoises are not encountered at land??? What will be next? An Octupus using his Ink Cloud on the land (it does not say, that it can't in the RAW)?
MindWandererB 04-18-07, 06:32 PM	What will be next? An Octupus using his Ink Cloud on the land (it does not say, that it can't in the RAW)?Ah, clearly you haven't seen my discussions about a weresquid. It's one of my plans, but unfortunately, I don't retire my characters often, so it may be a while before you see it. But when you do... ink cloud on land, and jetting backwards, too--both in hybrid form!
Rauul 04-18-07, 07:30 PM	Ah, clearly you haven't seen my discussions about a weresquid. It's one of my plans, but unfortunately, I don't retire my characters often, so it may be a while before you see it. But when you do... ink cloud on land, and jetting backwards, too--both in hybrid form! Is that Jetting backwards... yanno we in the old days used to call that a Fart.... But i really do wanna make a were-raven (halfling were-raven).. i think that would be Cool.. :)
Maraxus 04-18-07, 07:36 PM	Ah, clearly you haven't seen my discussions about a weresquid. It's one of my plans, but unfortunately, I don't retire my characters often, so it may be a while before you see it. But when you do... ink cloud on land, and jetting backwards, too--both in hybrid form! I made a joke. :eek: Btw, my first Were-Monster will definitly be Mr Green, an orcish Were-Crocodile. Nothing special but Strong as Hulk... And imagine the look.
Yitzi 04-18-07, 08:20 PM	A few questions: 1. In the city map, what are the rules for moving through hedges? (I assume it's possible, as otherwise there is no way, short of flying, to reach the balconies.) 2. What is required to hide behind said hedges to get total cover? How far away from the hedge can you be and still have cover from someone on the other side? 3. Can you make ranged touch attacks while grappling? While pinned? 4. Can a familiar/psycrystal deliver ranged touch spells? 5. Is it possible to disarm an opponent while grappling? 6. Is it possible to draw a weapon while pinned? 7. Is it possible to pick up an item while pinned? While grappling? 8. What are the rules for items augmented to an even number of pp? e.g. does a dorje augmented to 2 pp cost 1X2X750 or 2X2X750?
MindWandererB 04-18-07, 08:25 PM	A few questions: 1. In the city map, what are the rules for moving through hedges? (I assume it's possible, as otherwise there is no way, short of flying, to reach the balconies.) 2. What is required to hide behind said hedges to get total cover? How far away from the hedge can you be and still have cover from someone on the other side? 3. Can you make ranged touch attacks while grappling? While pinned? 4. Can a familiar/psycrystal deliver ranged touch spells? 5. Is it possible to disarm an opponent while grappling? 6. Is it possible to draw a weapon while pinned? 7. Is it possible to pick up an item while pinned? While grappling?1) You could jump or fly over the hedges, or I suppose you could destroy one. I don't think anyone's ever tried to just push through--though I suppose a druid could. 2) Usual cover rules: you have to be within 30 feet and closer to it than your opponent. That "attempts to hide behind it" doesn't seem to be meaningful. 3) In theory. It depends on how you're producing the attack. Throwing alchy fire, no; using a psionic ray, yes. Etcetera. 4) No. Not unless you have the Channel Power ability on the psicrystal. 5) Yes, using 'attack an opponent.' 6) No. 7) No.
Yitzi 04-18-07, 08:41 PM	Some more questions: If you use "attack an opponent" to disarm in a grapple, who gets the -4? Can you activate a magic item while pinned? Also, is there any way to get to the balcony without jumping/flying over the hedges? Also, isn't the rule about 30' and at least as close only for low obstacles? Also, I added a question#8 above.
Zevox 04-18-07, 10:53 PM	Can you activate a magic item while pinned? Only if it requires only a command word (and your opponent hasn't decided to prevent you from speaking) or a command thought (and the item has no aiming requirement I'd say also, since you're held immobile in a pin and thus couldn't do that). Also, is there any way to get to the balcony without jumping/flying over the hedges? Climb over them, of course. Also, isn't the rule about 30' and at least as close only for low obstacles? You are correct sir - that rule only determines if you get cover from low obstacles (1/2 your height or less), so it would only apply with the hedges to large creatures. For medium ones, you always have total cover vs foes on the other side if you want it (e.g. try to hide) - the hedge is as tall as you are, so low cover rules don't apply, normal wall ones do. 8. What are the rules for items augmented to an even number of pp? e.g. does a dorje augmented to 2 pp cost 1X2X750 or 2X2X750? 1x2x750 for your example - like nearly everything in D&D, you round down with this. Zevox
Yitzi 04-18-07, 11:06 PM	Only if it requires only a command word (and your opponent hasn't decided to prevent you from speaking) or a command thought (and the item has no aiming requirement I'd say also, since you're held immobile in a pin and thus couldn't do that). Climb over them, of course. What's the DC? Also, if you use "attack an opponent" to disarm in grapple, who gets the -4 from grappling? Just the attacker or both of you?
NiQil 04-18-07, 11:16 PM	What's the DC? Also, if you use "attack an opponent" to disarm in grapple, who gets the -4 from grappling? Just the attacker or both of you? MWB is incorrect about disarming in a grapple. Disarming is not on the list of things allowed in a grapple unless you have already pinned the opponent. If you have pinned the opponent, then you would follow the rules under that section for taking items away from a pinned opponent. Otherwise, you may not disarm in a grapple, since it is not on the list of available grapple actions. He is correct about drawing weapons from a pin. He is also correct about picking up items in a pin or grapple.
Zevox 04-18-07, 11:19 PM	What's the DC? No idea - looks like none of the DCs in the typical chart, which is what I figued when I posted that. Huh. *shrug* I'd ad-hoc it as fairly low (say DC 5 or 10), but theres no rules to back that up. Also, if you use "attack an opponent" to disarm in grapple, who gets the -4 from grappling? Just the attacker or both of you? Not a clue. I deliberately avoided that one in that series of answers because of that. (To be honest, I think its a stretch to say that the "attack an opponent" option can be used for anything but an attack when it doesn't say such in the grappling rules). Zevox
Yitzi 04-18-07, 11:22 PM	Thank you. That leaves 2 questions (since I keep coming up with new ones): 1. What is the DC to climb over a hedge in the city? (if I could have an official ruling) 2. If you use a ray or melee touch attack as part of spellcasting/manifesting in a grapple, does it take a -4 penalty? (I assume zevox is right about it not being possible in a pin)
NiQil 04-18-07, 11:29 PM	Here's the answer to the casting question: Cast a Spell: You can attempt to cast <manifest> a spell <power> while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting <manifesting> time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell <power> that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast <manifest> while grappling or being pinned. If the spell <power> is one that you can cast <manifest> while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell <power>. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast <manifest> the spell <power>. All items inside <> added by me to include psionics. Most of your grappling questions are covered fairly well in the grappling rules....if you haven't already, you may want to sit down and read them all the way through. In answer to your specific question, a melee or ranged touch attack used in a grapple does not take any penalties on the attack roll, as per the above quoted section. You just have to pass the concentration check to be able to do it in the first place, and then you have to succeed in your attack.
Zevox 04-18-07, 11:31 PM	2. If you use a ray or melee touch attack as part of spellcasting/manifesting in a grapple, does it take a -4 penalty? (I assume zevox is right about it not being possible in a pin) As part of the spellcasting/manifesting, no (that falls under the "cast a spell" or "manifest a power" rules, which don't give that penalty). If you hold the charge of a melee touch and try to touch later though (say you cast it before entering the grapple), it'd be the "attack an opponent" rules, and thus take the -4. Zevox
Yitzi 04-18-07, 11:39 PM	Here's the answer to the casting question: All items inside <> added by me to include psionics. Most of your grappling questions are covered fairly well in the grappling rules....if you haven't already, you may want to sit down and read them all the way through. yes, but they're ambiguous in some places-I might have thought that even though you can cast the spell, you can't make the attack. In answer to your specific question, a melee or ranged touch attack used in a grapple does not take any penalties on the attack roll, as per the above quoted section. You just have to pass the concentration check to be able to do it in the first place, and then you have to succeed in your attack. But it's not possible in a pin, right? Also, I would prefer to have an official ruling on the DC to climb a hedge. And another question: Does an AoO come before or after the action that provokes it?
Rauul 04-18-07, 11:57 PM	# The Highwaymen "Band of the Red Hand" raid the trade route to the Isle of Tipesa. # The Highwaymen "Stygian Strikers" raid the trade route to Semberia. # The Pirates "Firfannik's Breath" raid the trade route to Dentinia Library. # The Pirates "Sunset Avengers" raid the trade route to the Letzdorff. I am thinking we need a campain just to kill off some of these Highwayman and pirates... would that even be allowed as a Campain theme?
Zevox 04-18-07, 11:57 PM	But it's not possible in a pin, right? A pin holds you immobile. So you couldn't move your arm to make a melee touch, nor aim your hand to fire a ranged touch, no. Also, I would prefer to have an official ruling on the DC to climb a hedge. Then I'd suggest taking it to the courtroom thread. Thats where you press issues like that which require such a ruling. And another question: Does an AoO come before or after the action that provokes it? Before. Not only is that pretty clearly stated in the rules, but if it didn't certain provocations and their consequences would be impossible (e.g. an AoO for movement coming after the movement would encounter problems if the movement took the mover out of attack ranged, an AoO against a grapple attempt may not be able to go off if the attempt succeeded, etc.), so its only logical. Zevox
Zevox 04-19-07, 12:00 AM	# The Highwaymen "Band of the Red Hand" raid the trade route to the Isle of Tipesa. # The Highwaymen "Stygian Strikers" raid the trade route to Semberia. # The Pirates "Firfannik's Breath" raid the trade route to Dentinia Library. # The Pirates "Sunset Avengers" raid the trade route to the Letzdorff. I am thinking we need a campain just to kill off some of these Highwayman and pirates... would that even be allowed as a Campain theme? As a campaign theme? No. But the Guilds can attack them with CAPs. The EHTC is on the verge of destroying the Stygian Strikers right now, actually - if the MQ "Impure Steel" succeeds, they're gone. The problem is that all the others are of too high an EL to attack currently - EL 13 or 14. Zevox
Rauul 04-19-07, 12:06 AM	As a campaign theme? No. But the Guilds can attack them with CAPs. The EHTC is on the verge of destroying the Stygian Strikers right now, actually - if the MQ "Impure Steel" succeeds, they're gone. The problem is that all the others are of too high an EL to attack currently - EL 13 or 14. Zevox So basicly after IMT a bunch of the Higher level (frozen) can group and kill some off then i take it... Should be a good battle
Etiquette_Gnome 04-19-07, 12:18 AM	Rules question in regards to traps for you guys. When it says that they're only with the trap for 1 round, does this mean that the character that falls down a pit trap only takes the falling damage; and starts the fight out of the pit (assumed to have already gotten out somehow)?
Rauul 04-19-07, 12:28 AM	Rules question in regards to traps for you guys. When it says that they're only with the trap for 1 round, does this mean that the character that falls down a pit trap only takes the falling damage; and starts the fight out of the pit (assumed to have already gotten out somehow)? From what i understand yes.. they take the damage before arriving and start damaged.. giving thier opponet a slight upper hand.. unless they are killed by the trap then they never arrive.. fight is over before it begins...
MindWandererB 04-19-07, 01:41 AM	MWB is incorrect about disarming in a grapple. Disarming is not on the list of things allowed in a grapple unless you have already pinned the opponent. If you have pinned the opponent, then you would follow the rules under that section for taking items away from a pinned opponent. Otherwise, you may not disarm in a grapple, since it is not on the list of available grapple actions. He is correct about drawing weapons from a pin. He is also correct about picking up items in a pin or grapple. This is a question that NiQil and I wrangle over every time it comes up. I infer two things: 1) If you can "disarm" a well-secured item in a pin, you should be able to disarm a held item without one (or, at the very least, also in a pin), and 2) the "attack an opponent" option can be use to make any kind of attack you like--a disarm, a sunder, a trip, whatever, as long as it can be performed with a light or natural weapon. The rules aren't 100% clear on the issue.
NiQil 04-19-07, 02:21 AM	This is a question that NiQil and I wrangle over every time it comes up. I infer two things: 1) If you can "disarm" a well-secured item in a pin, you should be able to disarm a held item without one (or, at the very least, also in a pin), and 2) the "attack an opponent" option can be use to make any kind of attack you like--a disarm, a sunder, a trip, whatever, as long as it can be performed with a light or natural weapon. The rules aren't 100% clear on the issue. I, on the other hand, read the rules as they stand, and so since disarming, etc are not mentioned under the attack an opponent option, do not feel that they are allowed.
MindWandererB 04-19-07, 02:39 AM	I, on the other hand, read the rules as they stand, and so since disarming, etc are not mentioned under the attack an opponent option, do not feel that they are allowed. Neither is dealing damage. When you attack an opponent, you can attempt to deal damage, disarm, sunder, etc. The Grapple rules don't say exactly what goal the attack might have; in lie of something that says "you can deal damage to your opponent by attacking them with a weapon," or something like that, I feel we have to assume that you can declare any type of melee attack you could ordinarily make.
TelinArtho 04-19-07, 11:53 AM	May I interrupt this discussion for a moment? Thanks. What are we doing about the characters on Cat's campaign? Since the campaign has a direct effect on a couple of the guilds, and since the campaign was already over deadline by 10 weeks, I figured someone should mention it. This is important to me mostly because I have plans to use the people that are in that campaign at some point in the future if they are available. If they are not though - I want to plan accordingly as soon as I can... [EDIT] Another guild question. At what point can staff be reassigned/assigned to a structure? For instance, next week, CEF finishes construction of the Chapter House in Gorthyum with its last build action. Can I use a free action to reassign staff to that Chapter House in the same week or does it need to wait until the week following?
Yitzi 04-19-07, 01:51 PM	Another couple of questions: 1. If someone reaches into a space you threaten, but is not himself in such a space, does he provoke an AoO? 2. If yes, can you grapple him (and move into his space to maintain the grapple) as your AoO?
hogarth 04-19-07, 01:54 PM	Another couple of questions: 1. If someone reaches into a space you threaten, but is not himself in such a space, does he provoke an AoO? 2. If yes, can you grapple him (and move into his space to maintain the grapple) as your AoO? 1. No. 2. There is no #2.
Yitzi 04-19-07, 02:21 PM	What combat/skill penalties, if any, are there for having armor partially removed (e.g. 3 rounds into removing light armor)? Do you still get part of the armor bonus?
MindWandererB 04-19-07, 02:23 PM	May I interrupt this discussion for a moment? Thanks. What are we doing about the characters on Cat's campaign? Since the campaign has a direct effect on a couple of the guilds, and since the campaign was already over deadline by 10 weeks, I figured someone should mention it. This is important to me mostly because I have plans to use the people that are in that campaign at some point in the future if they are available. If they are not though - I want to plan accordingly as soon as I can... [EDIT] Another guild question. At what point can staff be reassigned/assigned to a structure? For instance, next week, CEF finishes construction of the Chapter House in Gorthyum with its last build action. Can I use a free action to reassign staff to that Chapter House in the same week or does it need to wait until the week following?I have still had no final word from Cat on the subject. It would really suck to officially dissolve the campaign and then have him come back. I'm going to shoot him an email. Staff can be (re)assigned at any time; you can do exactly what you say. One trick that several of us have figured out is that you can hire structure staff the week before the structure is completed; normally, you pay upkeep for unassigned staff, but since the staff are assigned in the first week you would have paid upkeep, you don't have to.
TelinArtho 04-19-07, 02:35 PM	I have still had no final word from Cat on the subject. It would really suck to officially dissolve the campaign and then have him come back. I'm going to shoot him an email. Staff can be (re)assigned at any time; you can do exactly what you say. One trick that several of us have figured out is that you can hire structure staff the week before the structure is completed; normally, you pay upkeep for unassigned staff, but since the staff are assigned in the first week you would have paid upkeep, you don't have to. Well, that's what I'm trying to do essentially. For some reason CEF has 12 unassigned basic staff though... so I figured I'd just assign them accordingly. I just wasn't sure about the timing. From the sounds of it though, I can pay the last 1000hp/gp worth on the Chapter House and assign the staff in the same week.
MindWandererB 04-19-07, 02:40 PM	Well, that's what I'm trying to do essentially. For some reason CEF has 12 unassigned basic staff though... so I figured I'd just assign them accordingly. I just wasn't sure about the timing. From the sounds of it though, I can pay the last 1000hp/gp worth on the Chapter House and assign the staff in the same week. Yes, exactly. That week and thereafter, you'll only pay upkeep for the 2 remaining unassigned staff (10 gp).
Yitzi 04-19-07, 02:44 PM	Since it seems to have been missed in the midst of the other discussion: what combat/skill penalties, if any, are there for having armor partially removed (e.g. 3 rounds into removing light armor)? Do you still get part of the armor bonus? Also, is it possible to gain full cover from a large creature from something and yet the same creature does not get full cover from you?
TelinArtho 04-19-07, 02:48 PM	Total cover generally indicates no LOS and no LOE - meaning attacks are generally impossible either way. Improved cover might happen occasionally (such as being submerged in water versus a land-bound opponent and some other cases), but it is still rare. As to the armor - there's nothing in the rules that I've seen. I'd probably treat the armor as no AC bonus, but still giving the ACP and ASF (meaning it is the worst case scenario), or maybe half the AC bonus. The reason I wouldn't reduce the penalties of the armor here is because with armor half-removed it is probably just as (if not more so) difficult to move in with plates and padding jangling around as when the armor is strapped and fitted in place.
Yitzi 04-19-07, 02:56 PM	Actually, I was asking more along the lines of whether there are any penalties beyond those for having it fully on.
Sunwolf 04-19-07, 02:59 PM	I'd use the penalties for hastily donned armor since it is not totally secured anymore -- seems to me that partially removed and partially put on are more or less the same. Don Hastily This column tells how long it takes to put the armor on in a hurry. The armor check penalty and armor bonus for hastily donned armor are each 1 point worse than normal.
templer10 04-19-07, 03:17 PM	Actually, I was asking more along the lines of whether there are any penalties beyond those for having it fully on. You know as long it's even partially on you you attackers against you still get that nice +3 to hit with energy ray electricity- but hell if you want to spend 10 rounds getting it off you.... BTW ther is no possiblity to remove armor hastily without someone helping you.
SauroGrenom 04-19-07, 03:56 PM	What's the racial traits for Gith?
Hirumajoe 04-19-07, 04:00 PM	What's the racial traits for Gith? From Planewalker.com: GITHYANKI RACIAL TRAITS • +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, -2 Wisdom. Generations of combat training have made the githyanki agile and sturdy. However, their single-minded devotion to the lich-queen for ages has stolen much of their intuition and judgment. • Medium-size humanoid. • Githyanki base speed is 30 feet. • Darkvision up to 60 feet. • Naturally Psionic: Psionic githyanki gain 3 bonus power points at 1st level. • Psi-Like Abilities: 3/day – psionic daze, far hand. In addition, at 3rd level githyanki can use concealing amorpha 3/day, at 6th level githyanki can use psionic dimension door 3/day, and at 9th level githyanki can use telekinetic thrust 3/day day and psionic plane shift 1/day. These are manifested as a psion of the githyanki’s character level. • Power Resistance (Ex): A githyanki has power resistance equal to 5 + 1 per character level. • Red Dragon Pact: Githyanki receive a +4 racial bonus to Diplomacy checks with red dragons. • Automatic Languages: Githyanki, Planar Trade, home region. Bonus Languages: Celestial, Draconic, Githzerai, Undercommon. • Plane of Origin: Usually the Astral Plane. • Favored Class: Either psychic warrior or fighter. Whichever class taken first by a githyanki character becomes that character’s favored class. Once chosen, it cannot be changed. • Level Adjustment +2. Nonpsionic Githyanki If the Expanded Psionics Handbook is not being used, replace the Naturally Psionic, Psi-Like Abilities, and Power Resistance traits with the following racial traits for githyanki characters: • Psionics (Sp): 3/day - daze, mage hand. In addition, at 3rd level githyanki can user blur 3/day, at 6th level githyanki can use dimension door 3/day, and at 9th level githyanki can use telekinesis 3/day and plane shift 1/day. These are cast as a sorcerer of the githyanki’s character level. • Spell Resistance (Ex): A githyanki has spell resistance equal to 5 + 1 per character level. • Favored Class: Fighter. Or did you want Githerzai?
TelinArtho 04-19-07, 04:03 PM	And since the psionic Githyanki are specifically excluded by the rules of Gladius - he means the nonpsionic version...
hogarth 04-19-07, 04:07 PM	This has nothing to do with the Core Coliseum, but I'm a bit shocked and disappointed to see that Dragon and Dungeon magazines are going to cease publication in September. I was a subscriber to Dragon from issue #72-#150(ish). I haven't bought it lately, but I did buy the "Shackled City" hardcover for a play-by-email campaign I'm currently running. Au revoir, Dungeon and Dragon!
Yitzi 04-19-07, 04:36 PM	You know as long it's even partially on you you attackers against you still get that nice +3 to hit with energy ray electricity- but hell if you want to spend 10 rounds getting it off you.... I know, but it might be useful.
One_Marine 04-19-07, 04:41 PM	Sorry for my lack of tactics and prlonged absence, y'all, but I had some family matters come up rather unexpectedly. But I',m back and hopeful that nothing else occurs.
SauroGrenom 04-19-07, 04:41 PM	From Planewalker.com: GITHYANKI RACIAL TRAITS • +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, -2 Wisdom. Generations of combat training have made the githyanki agile and sturdy. However, their single-minded devotion to the lich-queen for ages has stolen much of their intuition and judgment. • Medium-size humanoid. • Githyanki base speed is 30 feet. • Darkvision up to 60 feet. • Naturally Psionic: Psionic githyanki gain 3 bonus power points at 1st level. • Psi-Like Abilities: 3/day – psionic daze, far hand. In addition, at 3rd level githyanki can use concealing amorpha 3/day, at 6th level githyanki can use psionic dimension door 3/day, and at 9th level githyanki can use telekinetic thrust 3/day day and psionic plane shift 1/day. These are manifested as a psion of the githyanki’s character level. • Power Resistance (Ex): A githyanki has power resistance equal to 5 + 1 per character level. • Red Dragon Pact: Githyanki receive a +4 racial bonus to Diplomacy checks with red dragons. • Automatic Languages: Githyanki, Planar Trade, home region. Bonus Languages: Celestial, Draconic, Githzerai, Undercommon. • Plane of Origin: Usually the Astral Plane. • Favored Class: Either psychic warrior or fighter. Whichever class taken first by a githyanki character becomes that character’s favored class. Once chosen, it cannot be changed. • Level Adjustment +2. Nonpsionic Githyanki If the Expanded Psionics Handbook is not being used, replace the Naturally Psionic, Psi-Like Abilities, and Power Resistance traits with the following racial traits for githyanki characters: • Psionics (Sp): 3/day - daze, mage hand. In addition, at 3rd level githyanki can user blur 3/day, at 6th level githyanki can use dimension door 3/day, and at 9th level githyanki can use telekinesis 3/day and plane shift 1/day. These are cast as a sorcerer of the githyanki’s character level. • Spell Resistance (Ex): A githyanki has spell resistance equal to 5 + 1 per character level. • Favored Class: Fighter. Or did you want Githerzai?I was thinking the psionic monk race. I guess that's the Githerzai.
Macbrea 04-19-07, 04:48 PM	+6 Dex, -2 Int, +2 Wisdom Medium Sized, Humanoid (Extraplanar) 30ft Land speed Darkvision 60ft Psionics(SP) 3/day - Daze (DC 9), Feather Fall, Shatter (DC 13). A githzerai of 11th or higher can use plane shift (DC 16) once per day. Effective level equal to githzerai's class levels. The save DC are Charisma based. Inertial armor (sp) +4 armor bonus to ac while conscious. Counts as a 1st level spell. Spell resistance(Ex) 5 + class level Automatic Languages: Githzerai. Bonus: Common, Slaad, Undercommon Favored Class: monk Level adjustment +2
Rauul 04-19-07, 05:28 PM	And since the psionic Githyanki are specifically excluded by the rules of Gladius - he means the nonpsionic version... Still haven't figured out why the psionic versions are not allowed.. I mean heck you allow the non psionic versions from the DMG and every other race from the Psi handbook.. is it just because of the ability that not everyone has the book.. if thats the case we could just post the stats like we did for red wizard... neither are to powerful.. but O-well
MindWandererB 04-19-07, 06:01 PM	Still haven't figured out why the psionic versions are not allowed.. I mean heck you allow the non psionic versions from the DMG and every other race from the Psi handbook.. is it just because of the ability that not everyone has the book.. if thats the case we could just post the stats like we did for red wizard... neither are to powerful.. but O-well It has to do with our definition of "core." We assume that everyone owns the PHB, Monster Manual, and DMG (not always true--quite a few of us lack especially the 3.5 DMG--but it's a reasonable assumption). However, there are a lot of people who don't own the XPH. So the only material allowed is what appears in those three books and in the online SRD. What we did with the red wizard is technically illegal... it's copyrighted material and not covered in the Open Game License. So we try to keep that to a minimum.
Yitzi 04-19-07, 08:54 PM	It has to do with our definition of "core." We assume that everyone owns the PHB, Monster Manual, and DMG (not always true--quite a few of us lack especially the 3.5 DMG--but it's a reasonable assumption). However, there are a lot of people who don't own the XPH. So the only material allowed is what appears in those three books and in the online SRD. What we did with the red wizard is technically illegal... it's copyrighted material and not covered in the Open Game License. So we try to keep that to a minimum. Well, it's not as if Wizards doesn't know how to find these boards...:)
Vathelokai 04-20-07, 12:36 AM	This has nothing to do with the Core Coliseum, but I'm a bit shocked and disappointed to see that Dragon and Dungeon magazines are going to cease publication in September. I was a subscriber to Dragon from issue #72-#150(ish). I haven't bought it lately, but I did buy the "Shackled City" hardcover for a play-by-email campaign I'm currently running. Au revoir, Dungeon and Dragon! :eek: Damn you Paizo! Understandable, but still... I wonder whose grabing the rights to them. In other news, RL has been tough this week, but I havn't forgot about my Iron man fight, or the assault on the rioters. Should have that going by tomorrow night. Good to see you back, Marine.
Rauul 04-20-07, 01:04 AM	It has to do with our definition of "core." We assume that everyone owns the PHB, Monster Manual, and DMG (not always true--quite a few of us lack especially the 3.5 DMG--but it's a reasonable assumption). However, there are a lot of people who don't own the XPH. So the only material allowed is what appears in those three books and in the online SRD. What we did with the red wizard is technically illegal... it's copyrighted material and not covered in the Open Game License. So we try to keep that to a minimum. So basicly our Name Should be the SRD colloseum... but anyways i still don't see a problem with the PSI ones.. they are basicly the same except for they are Psionic races and give Pps per level.. shrug not that psi don't have the advantage already with Dajores over wands... But you well know my opinion on that..
MindWandererB 04-20-07, 01:16 AM	but anyways i still don't see a problem with the PSI ones.. they are basicly the same except for they are Psionic races and give Pps per level.. shrug not that psi don't have the advantage already with Dajores over wands... But you well know my opinion on that..The problem isn't with power of with balance, it's with accessibility. It's already a PITA for folks to run or audit Red Wizards, and they occasionally show up in the Prison, etc. out of misunderstanding. We're simply not going to include any more material that isn't easily available online, and we're not going to break any more laws by reprinting copyrighted information. One PrC and one feat, we can probably get away with. We're phasing out the random encounter tables. And that's it.
SauroGrenom 04-20-07, 01:34 AM	Every time I try to put together a monk build I hit a wall. I'm always stuck with a crappy ranged attack and lackluster melee ability and a total lack of casting ability. For a while I've been thinking about a Monk 11 combined with a full BAB prestige class. Duelist looks OK, since it has d10 HD and martial weapon proficiency. I was able to put together a concept that is a human Cobra Strike Monk that goes into Duelist after 12th level and fights with a shillelagh as a double weapon and gets 10 attacks in a flurry of blows with greater two weapon fighting and haste. I was able to get the AC up to almost 60. But then I recall that melee characters hardly ever get to take a full attack. So that's pointless. The character would probably end up as a ranged attacker unless in the sewer anyway. The monk is one of my favorite classes, but I've never been able to put together a build that dominates with any particular strategy. The monk doesn't multiclass well. It doesn't use important kinds of equipment. The replacements for those are expensive. It has serious MAD, and there's no casting ability to grant a diversity of functions. The class is just kind of like putty. It can be squeezed into whatever you need to fill a gap in the party, but it won't hold up under great pressure in any roll. I'm just venting a bit of my frustrations with the way the game designers wrote up the class. That's all. Don't mind me...
MindWandererB 04-20-07, 01:47 AM	Your pain is shared. The monk is in almost all ways a terrible disappointment, when considered from a min/max standpoint. Even PHBII couldn't fix it; in my home experience, folks usually go for swordsages from ToB instead. One way to get those full attacks off is to take a handful of levels in psychic warrior or psionic fist, for Hustle and/or Psionic Lion's Charge. Those classes also let you get Expansion, and a fully augmented Expansion with INA or Shillelagh can get fairly ugly, even with just one attack. You need flight, of course, but what melee build doesn't? With flight, Hustle, Lion's Charge, and monk speed, you should be able to force melee pretty frequently, and even get full attacks pretty often (consider Psionic Charge or Fleet of Foot, too).
Zevox 04-20-07, 01:48 AM	You know Sauro, we do have a Great Reknown straight monk here. Iced's Toron Brightstar. He seems to have been removed from the roster due to Iced's inactivity, but you can see his stats from his fight with Ceilia here (he didn't fight much after that before Iced's activity dropped off, so thats much the state he should be in now). He was a real tough cookie with TWF, poison, grappling, and big AC. But then I recall that melee characters hardly ever get to take a full attack. ...you know, I've seen you (or someone else) say that before, and I just don't understand why you think that. My experience is that its quite possible and even common to get full attacks, even against highly mobile foes, once you can reliably force melee (which with a mount or other speed boost - and Monks get plenty of that - is quite possible). Zevox
MindWandererB 04-20-07, 02:55 AM	The "current" version of Toron is here, BTW. Perks of being GM. Seems his only losses were to Mort Noir and to Celia... which was in fact his last fight. Both would be tough fights for anyone. I think he picked up on one important point: be an elf. You need the bow prof.
hogarth 04-20-07, 06:47 AM	:eek: Damn you Paizo! Understandable, but still... I wonder whose grabing the rights to them. It wasn't Paizo's decision at all. Wizards declined to renew their license to produce the magazines; instead WotC is going to provide similar content through their web site. Paizo is going to keep printing modules with a new magazine (or a montly paperback book w/ no ads) using the Open Gaming License, though.
TelinArtho 04-20-07, 09:43 AM	You know Sauro, we do have a Great Reknown straight monk here. Iced's Toron Brightstar. He seems to have been removed from the roster due to Iced's inactivity, but you can see his stats from his fight with Ceilia here (he didn't fight much after that before Iced's activity dropped off, so thats much the state he should be in now). He was a real tough cookie with TWF, poison, grappling, and big AC. ...you know, I've seen you (or someone else) say that before, and I just don't understand why you think that. My experience is that its quite possible and even common to get full attacks, even against highly mobile foes, once you can reliably force melee (which with a mount or other speed boost - and Monks get plenty of that - is quite possible). Zevox Just to comment and affirm this - Farig has had no problem forcing melee with just a light warhorse to speed her along. She has had a fair number of full attacks as well - mostly because of trips and disarms make it difficult to withdraw from her. Not a monk by any means - but she's not a caster either...
Yitzi 04-20-07, 11:47 AM	The monk is one of my favorite classes, but I've never been able to put together a build that dominates with any particular strategy. That's your problem. I think the trick to a successful monk isn't to have a single strategy, it's to be able to use whichever strategy the opponent is weak against.
Hirumajoe 04-20-07, 12:10 PM	That's your problem. I think the trick to a successful monk isn't to have a single strategy, it's to be able to use whichever strategy the opponent is weak against. Although I think Sauro is saying without casting and without alot offensive abilities/feats, the monk doesn't have that many strategies to employ. Look at the Monk abilities. 90% of them are defensive. The offensive Monk abilities are: Flurry of Blows Improved Unarmed damage (but can't use magic modifiers from magic weapons, like Flaming) 3 Bonus feats (which may or may not be offensive depending on choice) Magic, Lawful and Adamantine DR passing on unarmed strikes And quivering palm (at 15th) Thats it. And they all rely on the Monk's BAB, which is +3 every 4 levels. So with a monk you either hit them with your fist, hit them with your staff, or hit them with your (cross)bow. You really don't have any other options to employ. I suppose the same could be said for Fighters and Barbarians, but at least they have Full BAB and abilities (feats or Rage) which can buff that to-hit even further.
TelinArtho 04-20-07, 12:10 PM	The character would probably end up as a ranged attacker unless in the sewer anyway. The sewer, Temple and Cavern are all maps that a melee combatant should excell in. You don't even necessarily need a speed advantage in these maps with strategic use of running, hiding and/or reach weapons. The forest can be made to work for you if you can take advantage of the terrain against your opponent and especially if you have a speed advantage. This leaves the plains (bad for anyone without decent ranged attacks - even speed is less of a factor here if your opponent is a ranged ace) and the city (which can be good, can be bad - very much depends on your opponent) and the standard arena (which is usually better to have a strong ranged attack like on the plains).
Zevox 04-20-07, 12:21 PM	Improved Unarmed damage (but can't use magic modifiers from magic weapons, like Flaming) Actually, you can. Just buy and enchant a pair of gauntlets. They deal unarmed damage normally. Zevox
Hirumajoe 04-20-07, 12:26 PM	Actually, you can. Just buy and enchant a pair of gauntlets. They deal unarmed damage normally. Zevox Really? Didn't know that. I guess (now that I read their description) since they are treated as unarmed attacks its allowed with the monk flurry of blows too. Cool.
McJarvis 04-20-07, 12:32 PM	Do you have to quest for followers like you have to quest for cohorts?
Zevox 04-20-07, 12:45 PM	Do you have to quest for followers like you have to quest for cohorts? Technically, we have no rules about it. I'd presume you get followers from the same quest you get the cohort myself. Seems unfair to make players quest for the followers separately, especially with our "1 quest per level" rule. Zevox
Yitzi 04-20-07, 01:10 PM	Although I think Sauro is saying without casting and without alot offensive abilities/feats, the monk doesn't have that many strategies to employ. Look at the Monk abilities. 90% of them are defensive. The offensive Monk abilities are: Flurry of Blows Improved Unarmed damage (but can't use magic modifiers from magic weapons, like Flaming) 3 Bonus feats (which may or may not be offensive depending on choice) Magic, Lawful and Adamantine DR passing on unarmed strikes And quivering palm (at 15th) Thats it. And they all rely on the Monk's BAB, which is +3 every 4 levels. So with a monk you either hit them with your fist, hit them with your staff, or hit them with your (cross)bow. Here are some others: -trip them -disarm them -grapple them (if they haven't prepared to avoid it) -stun them, then take the weapon they drop -use your superior speed to stay out of range while hitting with your bow -use superior speed to close with a bow wielder, while using deflect arrows to avoid taking too much damage. Then trip/disarm/grapple them -take a level in psy warrior, then use unarmored armor bonus+Wis bonus+Dex bonus+defensive powers (from powerstones if needed) to have a high AC. And it's not bad in touch either. The monk's goal is not to slug it out with the enemy so much as to deprive the enemy of their ability to hurt him, then pound on them. It is a defensive class, but defense can be good too.
Sunwolf 04-20-07, 01:42 PM	Really? Didn't know that. I guess (now that I read their description) since they are treated as unarmed attacks its allowed with the monk flurry of blows too. Cool. This particular point has been argued back an forth a lot. As far as I knew monks could not use guantlets like this in core rules however most campaigns that I have played in to allow the use of ward cestus or bracers of striking to accomplish the same thing. Has this ruling been changed recently?
SauroGrenom 04-20-07, 01:45 PM	Actually, you can. Just buy and enchant a pair of gauntlets. They deal unarmed damage normally. ZevoxThis has been discussed extensively in other places. The general consensus is that although a gauntlet is treated as an unarmed strike, it's a weapon. It has a separate weapon entry on the chart of weapons. So technically a monk cannot flurry with it, or use it to make an "unarmed strike" with the enhanced monk unarmed strike damage. There's no core way for a monk to get elemental damage enhancements on an unarmed strike. You can get things like dissolving weapon, or an amulet of mighty fists, but not much else. You could request a custom item that casts dissolving weapon as a quickened power unlimited times/day. Perhaps you can also get something similar from an arcane spell with metamagic for energy substitution. That's the closest you can get to elemental damage on an unarmed strike. That is one of the reasons that monks lag behind other classes. It's the same reason that a soulknife has trouble. Using equipment is an advantage. As a continuation of Hirumajoe's comments, I think about half of a monk's useful class features are just trying to compensate for not using weapons, armor or shields. Then the wondrous items that compensate for the bonuses you expect from those pieces of equipment are expensive compared to the normal equipment. An amulet of Mighty Fists is 200,000gp, compare that to the price of a +5 weapon. Then look at Bracers of Armor +8, compare that to enchanted heavy armor. Seriously. The monk's got less equipment, fewer HP, lower BAB and decreased elemental damage output. No way the monk can go toe to toe with another melee character. He doesn't have the ride skill, he doesn't have a class ally mount, he doesn't have handle animal or bonus feats to use on mounted feats. So he's not a great mounted combatant, or even as good as a fighter. He doesn't have the use of a bow (clearly the best ranged weapon), and none of his bonus feats are ranged feats and the only ranged attack flurry option is thrown weapons with 10' range increment. So he's not a ranged attack guy. He's got no spells, and until epic levels his SR slides in effectiveness against spell penetration and greater spell penetration. His only dump stats are Cha and Int, so that destroys the hope of having a skill point ally or leadership ally. Sure, as I said before, the monk is a flexible class. You can form one into an OK character in many situations. Kind of a melee Gish. But a fighter's many feats and BAB will allow him to be even better at that. I've wined about this to wizards before. There's no clear roll for the monk. He's just the 4th (or 5th) guy. He's not a specialist at anything. He's not even the specialist at being a melee Gish. I had a monk grappler for a while. He even made it to Great Renown for a week. He got lucky and had a string of battles against opponents who couldn't handle the grappling. His overall win record was about 50% if I recall correctly. It's not bad, it's just not great. When they built the class, they should have given the monk full BAB, d10 HP and made Wisdom replace Strength as the bonus on unarmed strike damage and to hit (to help relieve MAD). Also they should have provided some monk specific equipment to help out with the equipment issues. The class is heavy on flavor and eclectic abilities, but thin on practical utility. I think they build the class as a variant of the cleric, but it should have been a variant of the fighter. When I think about the class in relation to a party, I'm left asking the question, "What exactly is my Monk going to do for the party?"
hogarth 04-20-07, 01:53 PM	There's no core way for a monk to get elemental damage enhancements on an unarmed strike. You can get things like dissolving weapon, or an amulet of mighty fists, but not much else. You could request a custom item that casts dissolving weapon as a quickened power unlimited times/day. Perhaps you can also get something similar from an arcane spell with metamagic for energy substitution. That's the closest you can get to elemental damage on an unarmed strike. Just to be pedantic, you missed the possibility of a custom item of Claw of Energy (which almost certainly wouldn't be worth it --> 50,400 gp for a command thought item). I agree that non-spellcasting monks aren't very competitive in the long run. But I also think non-spellcasting fighters and barbarians aren't very competitive in the long run either. Personally, I think the class crying out the most for full BAB is the Soulknife. Just my $.02.
SauroGrenom 04-20-07, 02:00 PM	Yitzi, If you want to disarm, the monk is not the best option. His unarmed strikes are light weapons. So he suffers a -4 penalty. A fighter with a two handed weapon does better. Use a heavy flail or spiked chain for an extra +2 on that check. If you want to trip, then a fighter will do better. He's got martial weapons with tripping, so he won't get counter tripped. Also he has no MAD, so he can get a higher Str bonus. If you want to grapple, the fighter or barbarian with armor spikes does better. The monk looses his dex bonus against others while in a grapple. The fighter's got feats to spare for the grapple feats, and doesn't rely on dex for AC. He's also got full BAB and a higher strength. Stunning fist is great against those with low Fort saves, but clerics and wizards do just fine w/o their weapons. If you want to boost the DC on this attack high enough to be useful, then you are investing feats and lots into Wisdom. Plus you still need to hit with an attack, and that low BAB hurts. The superior movement speed is great unless they have a flying mount. Any mount at your ECL will move faster or the same speed as you can. Also you don't have the use of a bow, only a crossbow. So you waste a move action to reload. Yep the deflect arrows is great against an archer. But if they have rapid shot and are mounted, it doesn't matter. They are probably moving faster than you or even flying. Yes Psiwarrior works well with Monk, but you have to be careful. You cannot multiclass back into monk. And your taking a further decrease in BAB by taking less than 4 levels in the Psiwarrior class. And if you take 4 level in Psiwarrior, you loose out on several class features. Besides it sucks if you have to multiclass to make a class viable.
TelinArtho 04-20-07, 02:21 PM	On the matter of the "oversimplification" of Mirror image (as started in the FotW thread), I would like to state the following (this is my opinion on how it should be done here): 1. If you are making an attack that affects one creature (as in a single attack, etc), that attack will need to roll against the total number of images plus one (for the caster). 2. If you are making an attack that affects multiple creatures at once (as in an area affect attack), that attack will automatically hit all images and the caster at once (and they will all react as the caster does - so none of them disappear). 3. If you are making an attack that affects a single creature, you have the option to close your eyes and suffer for yourself a 50% miss chance as a blinded character. While the spell "allows" for the images to be in separate squares - this makes things extremely complicated for the pitlord - specifically - where the "shape" and "organization" of the images can vary from round to round or even in reaction to each individual action. While this is "nerfing" the true effectiveness of the spell - no pitlord can make a designation of this magnitude without either benefitting the caster or benefitting the attacker. As stated before, I am very much interested in keeping things easy for the pitlord. If he has to make an on the spot adjustment for when the images are in a straight line, in a semi circle, in a box, or even in multidimensions (in the case of flyers) - with varying effects according to the attack the attacker is making (between melee, ranged weapon attacks to rays, lines, cones, spreads, bursts, etc) - this becomes a nightmare in logistics. Oversimplified? I call it keeping things Sane...
McJarvis 04-20-07, 02:27 PM	Again: I don't understand the reason for the blinding thing. In theory(though we are simplifying things for good reason), that miss chance before closing your eyes is due to your inability to pinpoint the creature. This means that Even with Mirror Image active, if you have blindsense & your eyes open, you should not be affected by the mirror image spell. In the same way: if you close your eyes with no other way to pinpoint the caster, you should not be able to pinpoint what square that caster is in.
MindWandererB 04-20-07, 02:31 PM	This particular point has been argued back an forth a lot. As far as I knew monks could not use guantlets like this in core rules however most campaigns that I have played in to allow the use of ward cestus or bracers of striking to accomplish the same thing. Has this ruling been changed recently?This has been discussed extensively in other places. The general consensus is that although a gauntlet is treated as an unarmed strike, it's a weapon. It has a separate weapon entry on the chart of weapons. So technically a monk cannot flurry with it, or use it to make an "unarmed strike" with the enhanced monk unarmed strike damage.I refer you both to the FAQ: Can a monk wear a gauntlet and still use her flurry of blows? Does she gain any other special abilities of the gauntlets with her unarmed strikes? Technically, a gauntlet isn’t an unarmed strike (it has a separate line on Table 7–5: Weapons in the Player’s Handbook), and thus can’t be used as part of a flurry of blows. A monk could wear gauntlets and still use flurry of blows, she just couldn’t attack with the gauntlets as part of the flurry (she’d be using her feet, elbows, knees, and so forth instead). If that’s too much hairsplitting for you, treat a gauntlet attack as effectively identical to an unarmed strike, except that it always deals lethal damage (even when worn by a monk). Many magic items called gauntlets aren’t necessarily using the same terminology. Gauntlets of ogre power, for example, aren’t always metal gloves. It’s conceivable that a monk might be wearing magic gauntlets that grant a special benefit on her unarmed strikes without those gauntlets also serving as weapons in their own right. In this case, the monk is making unarmed strike attacks, not gauntlet attacks. Can a monk treat an attack with a gauntlet as an unarmed strike? A monk could wear such an item and treat it as an unarmed strike (since the Player’s Handbook says that “a strike with a gauntlet is . . . considered an unarmed attack”), although the damage dealt by the gauntlet would always be considered lethal damage (as noted in the gauntlet entry) and the monk would suffer a nonproficiency penalty (since the gauntlet is a simple weapon). The monk could even use gauntlet attacks as part of a flurry of blows.This, unfortunately, creates all kinds of problems, since the two lines seem to be contradictory. My take on it is that the monk has the option to treat the gauntlet as a weapon or as an unarmed strike... but exactly what the consequences of that decision are, I'm not sure. Part of the problem is that the former answer is from Skip's tenure as Sage, and the latter is from Andy's. Another part is that the PHB quote is indeed correct, but the writers undoubtedly wanted to avoid certain brokenness (such as wearing a +5 amulet of mighty fists with an alchemical silver +1 flaming shocking freezing merciful gauntlet).
TelinArtho 04-20-07, 02:36 PM	The reason is to keep things sane for the pitlord. As I said before - if there is no way to determine the exact alignment of the images (line, box, stacked in one square), there is no way to identify how to react to certain affects. For instance, if the images are aligned in a box 3 deep and 3 wide with the caster in the middle of one of those three - then another caster who lays down a lightning bolt has a 1 in 3 chance of hitting the caster. If the images are aligned in a line perpendicular to the line to the attack, then the caster with lightning bolt has a 1 in 9 chance of hitting the caster. More importantly, if it only hits 3 images - then the caster loses 3 images because it will be quite obvious that the 3 images that are hit are not the caster (no screams of pain...). There's essentially limitless ways to organize the images in any given moment. The simplest and sanest way to handle it here in the CoCo is to say that single attacks always are against the total number of images +1 and area effects are always against all of the images (so none are destroyed). Yes this means that a single attack can be declared "blind" - so that it is just a 50% miss chance - but that is effectively turning the 2nd level Mirror Image into a very long duration 3rd level Displacement...
Abyssal Stalker 04-20-07, 02:40 PM	The reason is to keep things sane for the pitlord. As I said before - if there is no way to determine the exact alignment of the images (line, box, stacked in one square), there is no way to identify how to react to certain affects. For instance, if the images are aligned in a box 3 deep and 3 wide with the caster in the middle of one of those three - then another caster who lays down a lightning bolt has a 1 in 3 chance of hitting the caster. If the images are aligned in a line perpendicular to the line to the attack, then the caster with lightning bolt has a 1 in 9 chance of hitting the caster. More importantly, if it only hits 3 images - then the caster loses 3 images because it will be quite obvious that the 3 images that are hit are not the caster (no screams of pain...). There's essentially limitless ways to organize the images in any given moment. The simplest and sanest way to handle it here in the CoCo is to say that single attacks always are against the total number of images +1 and area effects are always against all of the images (so none are destroyed). Yes this means that a single attack can be declared "blind" - so that it is just a 50% miss chance - but that is effectively turning the 2nd level Mirror Image into a very long duration 3rd level Displacement... There is also the problem of mixing the images. If a wizard moves and then casts mirror image and all the images are in different squares, it isn't hard to get that the caster is the one in the original square. If we allow the imges to switch places for free, the caster might get free movement.
Hirumajoe 04-20-07, 02:42 PM	When they built the class, they should have given the monk full BAB, d10 HP and made Wisdom replace Strength as the bonus on unarmed strike damage and to hit (to help relieve MAD). Also they should have provided some monk specific equipment to help out with the equipment issues. The class is heavy on flavor and eclectic abilities, but thin on practical utility. I think they build the class as a variant of the cleric, but it should have been a variant of the fighter. When I think about the class in relation to a party, I'm left asking the question, "What exactly is my Monk going to do for the party?" Actually that makes alot of sense. It'd be interesting to run some fight comparisions with that type of re-designed monk against some basic opponent types (Fighter-Melee, Fighter-Archer, Wizard) and see how it does. As for the answer to your question, I've always thought of the Monk as an anti-wizard. He seems to have been designed with that in mind. He's gets SR, he's got the best saving throws in the game, he has a high touch AC against ray and touch spells, he can get two Fort based saving throw abilities (stunning fist and quivering palm) which are good against wizards, he gets enhanced speed to catch up with a mobility enhanced wizard. Heck, he gets dimension door to keep up with him too. He gets bonuses to saves against spells and he gets evasion to negate reflex save spells. Or maybe that just reflects that the most offensive characters in the game are wizards and thus any character designed with perfect defenses naturally has most of them tailored to casters. And one of his primary combat methods, grappling, is also strong against casters. Until about 7th level at which point Freedom of Movement starts showing up and the monk's best attack method goes up in a puff of magic. Also at that level, Polymorph starts showing up, which suddenly means the mage's physical combat abilities quite possibly out do the monks. There's only a 2 BAB difference between a 10th level Monk and a 10th level Mage.
MindWandererB 04-20-07, 02:47 PM	And that's another consequence: we simply can't give the caster that free movement. So if any of the images move more than the caster's speed in a round, that eliminates them as well. And if the opponent mentions that in his tactics, the pitlord has to sit there and figure out which individual images moved too far that round. I'm sorry, McJ: you have a very good, logical point, but the truth is that the implementation is just far too onerous. The spell was grandfathered in from 1st edition and 2nd edition, which were extremely light on the tactical combat aspect, and it was simply assumed that Mirror Image would work on a random chance factor. They'll probably revise that "5 feet from any other image" to something a little more practical in the next edition (although how it will work with Huge+ creatures, I have no idea), but in the meantime, we have to stay sane.
McJarvis 04-20-07, 02:53 PM	I'm sorry, McJ: you have a very good, logical point, but the truth is that the implementation is just far too onerous. The spell was grandfathered in from 1st edition and 2nd edition, which were extremely light on the tactical combat aspect, and it was simply assumed that Mirror Image would work on a random chance factor. They'll probably revise that "5 feet from any other image" to something a little more practical in the next edition (although how it will work with Huge+ creatures, I have no idea), but in the meantime, we have to stay sane. I don't know why everyone is overcomplicating this("this" being my point...). Again, I don't mind simplifying the spell a bit, however I'd like it noted that if you are facing the spell you just plain don't can't pinpoint the caster via sight. If you close your eyes and your only knowledge of the location of the caster is sight, then you still suffer the mirror image miss chance. THEN you suffer the 50% miss chance for being blind. That's it. I don't care where the images are-> where they are isn't really important. All that's important in this case is that being blind isn't an advantage over to being able to see.(for the purposes of a miss %) edit-> Again: The FAQ says for the purposes of simplification(ie-> area spells, threat areas, being able to attack images/thecaster), assume they're all in the same square. This doesn't mean they _are_ in the same square. (Just like how the fact that you can see in every direction doesn't mean that you have eyes in your ass ;) ) edit#2-> Heh...just read your reference to 1st and 2nd edition. That's actually what I'm arguing for! :)
Zevox 04-20-07, 02:59 PM	Re: Gauntlets & Monks - Wow, I knew about that second FAQ entry (it was what I based my reply on), but not about the first. So, the FAQ has two directly contradictory rulings on the matter. Which do we follow? With what MWB said about who wrote them I'm inclined to the latter, since I don't trust Skip at all (how many RotG articles with idiotic rulings have we run into?), but thats just personal opinion. Zevox
McJarvis 04-20-07, 03:17 PM	I refer you both to the FAQ: This, unfortunately, creates all kinds of problems, since the two lines seem to be contradictory. If you read it carefully, the first on says "It's really this way, but if that's too gimpish for you you can just treat the gauntlets as unarmed attacks that always deal lethal damage" The second one just assumes you're not a gimp :)
McJarvis 04-20-07, 03:18 PM	If anyone cares: I solved the problems in the family last night, so all is well :). It's amazing what convincing a mentally deranged family member to take anti-depressents can do for overall stress in the family.....
Macbrea 04-20-07, 03:33 PM	Actually, you can. Just buy and enchant a pair of gauntlets. They deal unarmed damage normally. Zevox This is partially incorrect. The FAQ has two answers to this in relation to monks: Can a monk wear a gauntlet and still use her flurry of blows? Does she gain any other special abilities of the gauntlets with her unarmed strikes? Technically, a gauntlet isn’t an unarmed strike (it has a separate line on Table 7–5: Weapons in the Player’s Handbook), and thus can’t be used as part of a flurry of blows. A monk could wear gauntlets and still use flurry of blows, she just couldn’t attack with the gauntlets as part of the flurry (she’d be using her feet, elbows, knees, and so forth instead). If that’s too much hairsplitting for you, treat a gauntlet attack as effectively identical to an unarmed strike, except that it always deals lethal damage (even when worn by a monk). Many magic items called gauntlets aren’t necessarily using the same terminology. Gauntlets of ogre power, for example, aren’t always metal gloves. It’s conceivable that a monk might be wearing magic gauntlets that grant a special benefit on her unarmed strikes without those gauntlets also serving as weapons in their own right. In this case, the monk is making unarmed strike attacks, not gauntlet attacks. Can a monk treat an attack with a gauntlet as an unarmed strike? A monk could wear such an item and treat it as an unarmed strike (since the Player’s Handbook says that “a strike with a gauntlet is . . . considered an unarmed attack”), although the damage dealt by the gauntlet would always be considered lethal damage (as noted in the gauntlet entry) and the monk would suffer a nonproficiency penalty (since the gauntlet is a simple weapon). The monk could even use gauntlet attacks as part of a flurry of blows. So.. yes, you can enchance gauntlets with enchantments but they are non-monk weapons.
TelinArtho 04-20-07, 03:34 PM	You're about an hour late MacBrea - MWB posted those an hour ago...
Macbrea 04-20-07, 03:37 PM	Bah! Missed that post!
Zevox 04-20-07, 03:39 PM	Well now, I just ran across a long-standing error in one of my characters that shocked me. For some reason when I statted up Asran I had the Half-Fiend template giving +2 int, but it actually gives +4. So he had some more skill points coming to him. Anybody care to take a quick look over him to make sure those are kosher (and that I didn't miss any other int-based boosts he should get)? Zevox
Yitzi 04-20-07, 05:02 PM	Yitzi, If you want to disarm, the monk is not the best option. His unarmed strikes are light weapons. So he suffers a -4 penalty. A fighter with a two handed weapon does better. Use a heavy flail or spiked chain for an extra +2 on that check. If you want to trip, then a fighter will do better. He's got martial weapons with tripping, so he won't get counter tripped. Also he has no MAD, so he can get a higher Str bonus. If you want to grapple, the fighter or barbarian with armor spikes does better. The monk looses his dex bonus against others while in a grapple. The fighter's got feats to spare for the grapple feats, and doesn't rely on dex for AC. He's also got full BAB and a higher strength. Stunning fist is great against those with low Fort saves, but clerics and wizards do just fine w/o their weapons. If you want to boost the DC on this attack high enough to be useful, then you are investing feats and lots into Wisdom. Plus you still need to hit with an attack, and that low BAB hurts. The superior movement speed is great unless they have a flying mount. Any mount at your ECL will move faster or the same speed as you can. Also you don't have the use of a bow, only a crossbow. So you waste a move action to reload. Yes, but if you want to be able to be able to do all of those, so as to take advantage of your opponent's weaknesses...and yes, not being able to use those nifty weapons can be a problem, which is why a level in psi warrior could come in handy (that plus the free feat, plus ability to use powerstones, particularly for force screen and inertial armor). A flying mount could be annoying, but it's annoying to any meleer who doesn't also have one. At least the speed bonus can assist winged boots in restoring some parity (and all it takes is one good stunning fist on the mount with its lower ECL and therefore saves). Of course it's not perfect, but it's defenitely workable-as long as you allow eclectic tactics for an eclectic class. Yep the deflect arrows is great against an archer. But if they have rapid shot and are mounted, it doesn't matter. They are probably moving faster than you or even flying. The ability to knock out half their damage potential could come in handy if you need to get into a ranged fight. Again, that psiwarrior's martial weapon proficiency is the key. Yes Psiwarrior works well with Monk, but you have to be careful. You cannot multiclass back into monk. So take it as 1 level in the beginning. All the best features-+2 fort, ability to take psionic feats (and getting one), ability to use powerstones to boost your armor and speed-are at the first level anyway.[/quote] And your taking a further decrease in BAB by taking less than 4 levels in the Psiwarrior class. 1 BAB, 2 skill points in psicraft (for some reason, it's not a class skill of the psywarrior), and 50 gp per battle for +8 (nontouch) armor from powerstones. I'd call it a bargain. Besides it sucks if you have to multiclass to make a class viable. Let's face it-how many classes are usable without multiclassing or party support? Not that many. And with party support, the monk makes good support-a dex monkey is a far easier target for your fighter when he's being grappled, and disarm/trip/stunning fist seem designed for use in a party enviroment.
McJarvis 04-20-07, 05:50 PM	Let's face it-how many classes are usable without multiclassing or party support? Full casters. That's about it :P
Macbrea 04-20-07, 05:55 PM	Ranger and Paladin probably could easily survive without multi-classing.
sonofzeal 04-20-07, 07:27 PM	Ranger and Paladin probably could easily survive without multi-classing. Most classes can survive without multiclassing, but almost all martial classes benifit from at least some multiclassing. Rangers and paladins are well-served by a fighter2 or psiwar2 dip. Two-weapon rangers also benifit well from starting off with a level of Barbarian, and both Scout and Rogue works naturally with them for both specialities.
Malither76 04-21-07, 01:25 PM	question, a leadership cohort will that is max ECL, which is your ECL-2 will cost you a 25% penalty right? If your political career is at 25% does this just even out and then of course if you advance your political career you will start to get a bonus?
Zevox 04-21-07, 01:27 PM	question, a leadership cohort will that is max ECL, which is your ECL-2 will cost you a 25% penalty right? If your political career is at 25% does this just even out and then of course if you advance your political career you will start to get a bonus? All correct. Zevox
McJarvis 04-21-07, 05:03 PM	This is all theoretical until I actually start laying down credits. Let's say I have a Vampire Cleric. He gets reduced to 0 hp...except he doesn't die. It's incredibly hard to kill vampires. Nor does he leave the arena. Normally this isn't a problem: he is in gaseous form & can not do anything. You can call the match because he's effectively incapacitated. But what if he wasn't? What if at ECL 11 he's capable of casting Still-Silent Cureinflict Minor Wounds on himself? After going from 0 hp to 1 hp he immediately would regain his fast healing 5 and be back in the game. So how does one kill a vampire in CoCo? Just get him down to 0 hp enough times that he can't recover, or will the "hard to kill" nature of them be ignored & make the +8 LA completely worthless?
Zevox 04-21-07, 05:06 PM	What if at ECL 11 he's capable of casting Still-Silent Cure Minor Wounds on himself? I think you mean Inflict Minor Wounds, right? ;) Zevox
McJarvis 04-21-07, 05:08 PM	*ahem*...I only think of things in positives and negatives. When you cast "Cure Light Wounds" on an undead creature, in my mind it auto-converts the spell to "Inflict Light Wounds" :) Furthermore-> could you add hp onto your vampire if you were an ECL 3 cleric that went on a quest to become a vampire & cast desecrate during it?
Zevox 04-21-07, 05:10 PM	Heh. :D Personally, in such a rare instance, I'd just have things continue until the Vampire can't continue to bring himself back from the brink. He can only memorize so many still/silent inflict spells, and in gaseous form items using such spells are beyond his ability to use anyway, so theres no danger of abuse there. Seems to me a fine way to take advantage of one of the Vampire's abilities it pays so heftily for. Zevox
McJarvis 04-21-07, 05:12 PM	Heh. :D Personally, in such a rare instance, I'd just have things continue until the Vampire can't continue to bring himself back from the brink. He can only memorize so many still/silent inflict spells, and in gaseous form items using such spells are beyond his ability to use anyway, so theres no danger of abuse there. Seems to me a fine way to take advantage of one of the Vampire's abilities it pays so heftily for. Zevox That was more or less my thinking on the issue too. What if you eventually(around ECL 8+6(leadership)=14) had a cohort cleric to cast the spells on you? edit-> Worst quest-lord idea ever: What about an ECL 3 Cleric Vampire? CR 5 encounter! :D
Zevox 04-21-07, 05:14 PM	Furthermore-> could you add hp onto your vampire if you were an ECL 3 cleric that went on a quest to become a vampire & cast desecrate during it? I'd have to say no - that spell adds to the hp of undead "created or summoned" within its area, and being transformed is not the same as being created or summoned (obviously, I'm using these semantics to argue for what I think is the intent, which is for it to work with spells like Animate Dead, Create Undead, etc). Zevox
McJarvis 04-21-07, 05:14 PM	I'd have to say no - that spell adds to the hp of undead "created or summoned" within its area, and being transformed is not the same as being created or summoned (obviously, I'm using these semantics to argue for what I think is the intent, which is for it to work with spells like Animate Dead, Create Undead, etc). Zevox I can accept that logic.
Zevox 04-21-07, 05:19 PM	What if you eventually(around ECL 8+6(leadership)=14) had a cohort cleric to cast the spells on you? Ouchy - much more abuse potential there. And actually, we have a Vampire in the arena right now that could do this - Jonathan Raven (a Vampire Spawn rather than a full Vampire, but they get that ability too, and he has a Cleric cohort). I suppose I'd still say to allow it though, given Vampires/Spawns already pay heftily for their powers, so its not too much of a problem. Besides, their foe just has to take the Cleric out of the picture then (kill her, silence her, whatever). Zevox
McJarvis 04-21-07, 05:22 PM	h'm. It would seem the vampire spawn has every advantage over the regular vampire.(trade 4 LA for 4 hd & lose a few of the weaker abilities//lose some fast healing...) edit-> I take that back. Not being a template is a pretty big disadvantage in my book.
Zevox 04-21-07, 05:27 PM	Well, not every advantage - they do miss out on a lot of nice special abilities, and they're a race in themselves rather than a template that can be applied to a variety of races - but around here they're almost certainly a more efficient choice overall (mostly because instead of LA+8 they get 4 HD and LA+4). Zevox
TheMagister 04-21-07, 07:03 PM	The inflict/cure spells are all touch based, though. A gaseous form can't touch anything to deliver the spell, can it? TM
SauroGrenom 04-21-07, 07:05 PM	The inflict/cure spells are all touch based, though. A gaseous form can't touch anything to deliver the spell, can it? TMVery good point. I think you may be correct there.
Zevox 04-21-07, 07:08 PM	The inflict/cure spells are all touch based, though. A gaseous form can't touch anything to deliver the spell, can it? TM Reading the spell, you're certainly right at least in part. Creatures in a gaseous form pretty clearly cannot use touch spells. It can’t attack or cast spells with verbal, somatic, material, or focus components while in gaseous form. (This does not rule out the use of certain spells that the subject may have prepared using the feats Silent Spell, Still Spell, and Eschew Materials.) If it has a touch spell ready to use, that spell is discharged harmlessly when the gaseous form spell takes effect. However, the Cleric casting on it is another matter, since clearly it can be touched and affected by other things (else the DR 10/magic the form gives would be redundant). Zevox
Abyssal Stalker 04-22-07, 02:16 AM	Well, not every advantage - they do miss out on a lot of nice special abilities, and they're a race in themselves rather than a template that can be applied to a variety of races - but around here they're almost certainly a more efficient choice overall (mostly because instead of LA+8 they get 4 HD and LA+4). Zevox This is exactly how I was thinking. And the time I created Jonathon, EL10 was the highest league. A 2HD character in that EL didn't sound like an option to me. My opinion so far is that energy drain the best offensive ability of vampires. Wish it could be used in flurry...
TheMagister 04-22-07, 03:48 AM	I think that the vampire's best advantages are its defensive ones. DR 10/silver and magic? That's rare around here. The ability to shape shift into alternate forms cannot be underestimated: extra speed, flight, and damage potential are all in that little package. I'd lump gaseous form into this category as well. Coupled with the Fast Healing 5, a vampire can break combat and flee to fight again. Just 8 short rounds is 40 hp of healin' goodness! The resistances are just nice. 10 to elec and cold! Cold ain't so hot (okay...bad pun), but elec is used a lot around here. A simple potion rounds out those defenses nicely. The summoning ability is REALLY nice when you couple it with the alternate forms ability. Hiding in a pack of 3d6 wolves while in wolf form is just priceless. Also: 2-5 bit swarms!? Even 10th level characters will have trouble with that. Whaddaya gonna do, swing your torch at them? I dunno. You gain an awful lot when you take that vampire template...
Abyssal Stalker 04-22-07, 04:42 AM	Don't forget the undead immunities that are pretty vast and prevent several tactics. Immunity to critical hits and sneak attacks. Immunity to physical ability damage. Immunity to mind-affecting effects. Immunity to death effects. Energy attacks are the biggest problems, but you can get away from them with simple spells or powers. High dexterity also helps because many of them allow reflex saves. Ego whip isn't good against vampires either because of the nice charisma boost. One thing we need to keep in mind is that you must find a way to deal with the vampire weaknesses. In addition they are pretty badly written and according to some opinions they make vampires practically unplayable in CoCo. This far I've found low hp and low BAB the biggest problems on Jonathon. His ranged capabilities aren't good either. I still think that he has some potential, but I've been too lazy to enter him to the arena and thus my experiences are from missions and quests.
Hirumajoe 04-22-07, 07:15 AM	I've always felt the best ability true vampires (as opposed to vampire spawn) in the CoCo was their Create Spawn ability. Even a lowly 2HD Vampire can control a 4HD Vampire spawn. Which is only a CR 4 creature. Once the ECL 11 League opens up, suddenly you're allowed to have true Vampires with you. A Minotaur is probably you're best first bet at only Cr 6 (but equivalent to ECL 16! - without the gold though). And that Minotaur can control up to 12 HD worth of Vampires for you (ally of my ally, is my ally...). So you wind up questing every level for another Vampire to join your army of the undead. 11th you get a Minotaur, 12th grab an Green Hag, 13th grab a Were-Dire Tiger/Human. By the time 14th level rolls around your going into battle with yourself (a 6HD Vampire) and a CR 7, 17 HD vampire (who is under the control of your 9 HD Green Hag, who is under the control of your 6 HD Minotaur). While a mere CR 7 monster, its equivalent to an ECL 28!! character (again, without the cash). If you're allowed to detail character levels on a quest for victims err... allies, then the possibilities really open up.
hogarth 04-22-07, 07:59 AM	I think that the vampire's best advantages are its defensive ones. DR 10/silver and magic? That's rare around here. A magic bow + silver arrows is not unheard of. I think I've seen people with an oil of Magic Weapon, too. Ego whip isn't good against vampires either because of the nice charisma boost. Ego Whip isn't good against vampires because it's a mind-affecting power (which undead are immune to)! Once the ECL 11 League opens up, suddenly you're allowed to have true Vampires with you. A Minotaur is probably you're best first bet at only Cr 6 (but equivalent to ECL 16! - without the gold though). And that Minotaur can control up to 12 HD worth of Vampires for you (ally of my ally, is my ally...). That would be pretty snazzy, all right.
templer10 04-22-07, 08:08 AM	I've always felt the best ability true vampires (as opposed to vampire spawn) in the CoCo was their Create Spawn ability. Even a lowly 2HD Vampire can control a 4HD Vampire spawn. Which is only a CR 4 creature. Once the ECL 11 League opens up, suddenly you're allowed to have true Vampires with you. A Minotaur is probably you're best first bet at only Cr 6 (but equivalent to ECL 16! - without the gold though). And that Minotaur can control up to 12 HD worth of Vampires for you (ally of my ally, is my ally...). So you wind up questing every level for another Vampire to join your army of the undead. 11th you get a Minotaur, 12th grab an Green Hag, 13th grab a Were-Dire Tiger/Human. By the time 14th level rolls around your going into battle with yourself (a 6HD Vampire) and a CR 7, 17 HD vampire (who is under the control of your 9 HD Green Hag, who is under the control of your 6 HD Minotaur). While a mere CR 7 monster, its equivalent to an ECL 28!! character (again, without the cash). If you're allowed to detail character levels on a quest for victims err... allies, then the possibilities really open up. ouch- but only until the first level 11 wizard (undeath to death) or cleric (heal, undeadth to death) - comes along.
Hirumajoe 04-22-07, 08:23 AM	ouch- but only until the first level 11 wizard (undeath to death) or cleric (heal, undeadth to death) - comes along. Thats a 500 gp spell that allows a will save and SR. So its by no means guaranteed. Although it is still a really nice Save or die. And once ECL 12 rolls around, the Vampire is using allies with more than 9HD, making them (at least) immune. There are also counters to it, such as Greater Spell Immunity. I could imagine a Vampire with one level of cleric and a staff of 10 charges of Greater Spell Immunity (18,000 gp) or maybe just plain old spell resistance at level 20 (15,000 gp for 10 charges). The later is probably a better deal - assuming you can get it approved. :)
Malither76 04-22-07, 08:34 AM	Anyone inferested in running a quest for Malik, he needs to go on an EL 6 quest for his cohort.
Abyssal Stalker 04-22-07, 09:23 AM	Ego Whip isn't good against vampires because it's a mind-affecting power (which undead are immune to)!Eh, well... I was still right, it can be considered as "not so effective" tactic :P
Abyssal Stalker 04-22-07, 09:29 AM	I've always felt the best ability true vampires (as opposed to vampire spawn) in the CoCo was their Create Spawn ability. Even a lowly 2HD Vampire can control a 4HD Vampire spawn. Which is only a CR 4 creature. Once the ECL 11 League opens up, suddenly you're allowed to have true Vampires with you. A Minotaur is probably you're best first bet at only Cr 6 (but equivalent to ECL 16! - without the gold though). And that Minotaur can control up to 12 HD worth of Vampires for you (ally of my ally, is my ally...). So you wind up questing every level for another Vampire to join your army of the undead. 11th you get a Minotaur, 12th grab an Green Hag, 13th grab a Were-Dire Tiger/Human. By the time 14th level rolls around your going into battle with yourself (a 6HD Vampire) and a CR 7, 17 HD vampire (who is under the control of your 9 HD Green Hag, who is under the control of your 6 HD Minotaur). While a mere CR 7 monster, its equivalent to an ECL 28!! character (again, without the cash). If you're allowed to detail character levels on a quest for victims err... allies, then the possibilities really open up. This probably should be nerfed so that allies created with the "create spawn" use ECL if they have one to determine if a gladiator can bring them to the arena and CR if they don't have ECL. That way you could bring a 1HD vampire or 2 spawns at 11th level. Edit: On the other hand, at 14th you can bring a CR10 monster with you if you find a way to acquire one. That includes for example an 11-headed hydra...
McJarvis 04-22-07, 01:19 PM	@Spawn creation theorists: This is the "way" in which I planned on killing things. RE: touch spells in gaseous form That part of the rules just says the touch spell is discharged when the gaseous form spell takes effect. (you know, when it starts...) Not when it is still ongoing & you cast a silent/stilled spell in that form. I see this as merely protection against a wizard casting a dangerous touch spell, having an ally cast gaseous form on him, and then him going in for the delivery.
sonofzeal 04-22-07, 01:23 PM	@Spawn creation theorists: This is the "way" in which I planned on killing things. RE: touch spells in gaseous form That part of the rules just says the touch spell is discharged when the gaseous form spell takes effect. (you know, when it starts...) Not when it is still ongoing & you cast a silent/stilled spell in that form. I see this as merely protection against a wizard casting a dangerous touch spell, having an ally cast gaseous form on him, and then him going in for the delivery. ....and that's more dangerous than having an ally cast gaseous form on him (or even casting it himself), casting the touch spell, and going in for the delivery..... how?
McJarvis 04-22-07, 01:24 PM	....and that's more dangerous than having an ally cast gaseous form on him (or even casting it himself), casting the touch spell, and going in for the delivery..... how? You can't cast spells with verbal or somatic components while in gaseous form. If you could cast the spell before gaseous form was in effect, then you wouldn't need two feats(still/silent) & a spell slot two levels higher. edit-> Actually, now that I think about it...can you use metamagic rods while in gaseous form? they just give you an ability for possessing them, don't they?
Sjiggie 04-22-07, 02:49 PM	Anyone inferested in running a quest for Malik, he needs to go on an EL 6 quest for his cohort. I can take it just send me some basic information about the cohort if you want. -Sjiggie
Vathelokai 04-22-07, 03:01 PM	You can't cast spells with verbal or somatic components while in gaseous form. If you could cast the spell before gaseous form was in effect, then you wouldn't need two feats(still/silent) & a spell slot two levels higher. edit-> Actually, now that I think about it...can you use metamagic rods while in gaseous form? they just give you an ability for possessing them, don't they? It can’t attack or cast spells with verbal, somatic, material, or focus components while in gaseous form. (This does not rule out the use of certain spells that the subject may have prepared using the feats Silent Spell, Still Spell, and Eschew Materials.)... It also can’t manipulate objects or activate items, even those carried along with its gaseous form. Continuously active items remain active, though in some cases their effects may be moot. No rods. Note that you would also need eschew materials. Makes the psi version so much more powerful.
McJarvis 04-22-07, 03:53 PM	No rods. Note that you would also need eschew materials. Makes the psi version so much more powerful. 1) Metamagic Rods confer their abilities upon those who possess them, not those who retrieve them or wield them or anything else. This makes me think you can use them while in Gaseous form in the same way you can make use of a cloak of elven kind while in gaseous form. Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day. 2) Inflict wounds requires no material components or focus, so no eschew materials are necessary.
hogarth 04-22-07, 04:00 PM	Here are the quotes that seem to conflict: "It also can’t manipulate objects or activate items, even those carried along with its gaseous form." and "All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity)." I don't think you can even activate a use-activated item in gaseous form.
McJarvis 04-22-07, 04:09 PM	Here are the quotes that seem to conflict: "It also can’t manipulate objects or activate items, even those carried along with its gaseous form." and "All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity)." I don't think you can even activate a use-activated item in gaseous form. This is quickly turning into a hair-splitting problem. Does the owner of a "use activated item" really activate it himself? I always imagined the item was auto-activating, since it was detecting when the use was needed.
hogarth 04-22-07, 04:14 PM	This is quickly turning into a hair-splitting problem. Does the owner of a "use activated item" really activate it himself? I always imagined the item was auto-activating, since it was detecting when the use was needed. So as long as the rod is in your backpack, the first three spells you cast are automatically metamagicked whether you like it or not? :confused: I think you get to pick which spells are metamagicked and which aren't. "Picking" = "activating". If you have no choice whether the effect applies or not (like wearing a headband of intellect), that doesn't require activation.
McJarvis 04-22-07, 04:15 PM	So as long as the rod is in your backpack, the first three spells you cast are automatically metamagicked whether you like it or not? :confused: I think you get to pick which spells are metamagicked and which aren't. "Picking" = "activating". If you have no choice whether the effect applies or not (like wearing a headband of intellect), that doesn't require activation. So if you have a ring of featherfall, you can choose to "deactivate" it even though it's use activated? No, I've never allowed PC's that kind of control over use-activated items. This might be a fault on my part, though.
hogarth 04-22-07, 04:28 PM	So you actually play that an owner of a metamagic rod can't choose when to use it and when not to? I find that extremely weird, but vive la difference!
McJarvis 04-22-07, 04:33 PM	So you actually play that an owner of a metamagic rod can't choose when to use it and when not to? I find that extremely weird, but vive la difference! I've never really thought about it before. (I think rings of slow-falling are the only use-activated items I've really used at table-top play) It just occured to me that if I was to house-rule it that I would consider judging it like this: If you attempt to cast a spell with a verbal component without saying anything, then you are "using" the metamagic rod. If you attempt to cast a spell while muted(and don't know it for whatever reason), you still "use" the metamagic rod. Thus knowledge of your about-to-be-using it isn't necessary-> because it's use-activated.
Vathelokai 04-22-07, 05:03 PM	The reason I bolded the 'focus' part of the gas form spell wasn't about the inflict spell; it was because I thought it a good example of what you can and can't use in gas form. If you can't even use a divine focus (which I consider similar to something like a metamagic rod), then why could you use another item. Use-Activated This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory. Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character’s possession (on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word, usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen. The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case. Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself. If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item’s activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time use activation is not an action at all. Use activation doesn’t mean that if you use an item, you automatically know what it can do. You must know (or at least guess) what the item can do and then use the item in order to activate it, unless the benefit of the item comes automatically, such from drinking a potion or swinging a swordThe bolded paragraph has the important bits. Most are "constant on" items and some require the user to mentally activate them. I think by definition a x/day item has to be activated; otherwise it would automaticly be used on the first 3 spells it can effect (I think) and the item description says that the user has control over when the rod is activated. Those are my thoughts. Not sure if I'm right. Another note; thought slightly off topic. A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod’s wielder.
McJarvis 04-22-07, 05:16 PM	Part of your quoted text gives us the answer: (in reference to when things need command words or command thoughts) The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case. Since rods don't specify that it requires a command word/thought, none is needed. However, I was thinking-> In CoCo simplicity really should take precedence over complex house-rules. Saying that use-activated items always counts as that character "activating" the item surely wouldn't affect most situations, and is the simplest ruling we could come up with for Gaseous form-casting. So I say metamagic rods and similar things just shouldn't be usable in gaseous form, even if I think it is otherwise. RE: 1 metamagic rod per casting I thought of that, but it doesn't really restrict the build much. Having to take silent spell is hardly a detriment to such an obvious hider-build. (trickery domain is one of the four domain choices allowed to cleric vampires) We may be seeing a re-make of Mort(yet again) as a forest gnome cleric-vampire :) On the other hand, I may just use my credits to make a vampirespawn 4(racial hd)/cleric 3/shadowdancer 1/cleric X build. Hide in plain sight+gaseous form=very hard to detect edit-> Was there a gaseous form, psionic version? I can't seem to find it.
Hirumajoe 04-22-07, 06:00 PM	edit-> Was there a gaseous form, psionic version? I can't seem to find it. I think Ectoplasmic Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/ectoplasmicForm.htm) is what you're looking for. Egoist/Psywarrior power.
NiQil 04-22-07, 07:20 PM	I just found something in the FAQ that I feel the need to post here, because I have a feeling that it will have an effect on how we have doing things. This relates to the use of the feats Psionic Shot/Fist/Weapon. Can any of these feats (Psionic Shot, Psionic Fist, Psionic Weapon) be attached to powers or spells? For example touch spells/powers/effects? Ranged touch spells/powers/effects? If so, what type of damage is it? In general, the rule of thumb for such things is that the most recent effect applied takes the place of any previous effect, unless specifically noted otherwise (such as the hunter of the dead’s smite undead ability, which is specifically noted to work with his smite evil ability on the same swing). But, a DM may decide to allow two effects to work together if it seems reasonable for her game, even if not specifically noted. What this seems to be saying is that if you have a spell/power effect already in place (either on a weapon, such as Dissolving Weapon, or as a touch attack, such as Dissipating Touch), that you cannot apply the feat damage on top of it. I don't know that I necessarily agree with that, but that is what it seems to be saying. Thoughts?
TheMagister 04-22-07, 07:42 PM	Be more specific. Use Monsieur Hood's build focus (dissolving weapon+psionic shot+deepcrystal) or Rubicanti's future build focus (Hammer+Fire Damage Touch+Nimbus) as examples and specify what you think the quoted portion is saying and how it would effect those damage effect stacking situations.
McJarvis 04-22-07, 09:24 PM	Thoughts? Given that this is another FAQ ruling that says "Yadda yadda yadda, but it's really up to your DM to determine if this interpretation is reasonable", I'd say we can safely ignore it.
Zevox 04-22-07, 09:28 PM	Given that this is another FAQ ruling that says "Yadda yadda yadda, but it's really up to your DM to determine if this interpretation is reasonable", I'd say we can safely ignore it. Especially given its an FAQ ruling that doesn't seem to address question it is supposedly answering at all... Zevox
templer10 04-22-07, 09:28 PM	Given that this is another FAQ ruling that says "Yadda yadda yadda, but it's really up to your DM to determine if this interpretation is reasonable", I'd say we can safely ignore it. i second that and considering the havoc it will cause to start unignoring it - it's just not worth worth the trouble.
McJarvis 04-22-07, 09:31 PM	Can a vampire character even be created in CoCo at less than ECL 13? Technically no means is given for creating a vampire with less than 5 HD, but it's not said it is impossible. edit-> ooooo! Can you acquire allies using the vampires dominate ability? I remember a warlock I designed once who was the bestest interrogator in the world because he could sit down and charm person people until they failed their saving throw. Since dominate for a vampire has a duration of 12 days & you can do it at will, you could effectively "take a 20"(or "take a 1"?) & dominate any target that could be dominated. It's like the perfect diplomacy/handle animal/leadership tool! (edit#2-> ok, so only humanoids. Not THAT broken) Still: It could effectively be called a variation on leadership!
Zevox 04-22-07, 09:52 PM	Can a vampire character even be created in CoCo at less than ECL 13? Technically no means is given for creating a vampire with less than 5 HD, but it's not said it is impossible. *shrugs* The template doesn't say the base creature has to have 5 HD. Technically, that means it doesn't. Its just that the known IC ways of creating vampires don't include one for those with less than 5 HD. Can you acquire allies using the vampires dominate ability? There was quite a lot of discussion about that some time ago (might've been after Jonathan was created, but I can't recall for sure). Don't remember what the outcome was, but the argument essentially centered around the fact that Dominate is a limited duration effect (so, how would you determine how long you have the ally then?) with a save allowed. Personally, because of that, I'd not allow it. And of course you could use the ability to great effect in the arena already, and already have Create Spawn for getting allies, so it seems to me no great loss not to be able to use dominate to acquire allies. Zevox
McJarvis 04-22-07, 09:55 PM	I think you misunderstand me. I'm going to sit in front of the dominated person for an hour every morning and _redominate them_ . Since I can do it an infinite # of times & they really can't fight back, I should be able to keep re-trying until they get a low enough saving throw to fail. (if they failed to it once, they WILL fail to it again) Essentially, so long as I have immediate access to the dominated fellow, I should be able to "refresh" the effect. In D&D tabletop terms: The only way someone will stop being dominated is if the vampire can't actually reach the person before the effect wears off. (since in order to refresh the vamp needs to get with 30 ft and look the person in the eye) RE: Being no great loss. Well, at ECL 9 you can get no allies with the "create spawn" ability. At ECL 10 you can get a vampire spawn. At ECL 11 you can get a vampire. At least this way at ECL 9 you could get an ally. Plus, it's just a weak version of leadership. (only works on humanoids who are not immune to mind-affecting abilities) I guess it isn't a huge loss, but it is a loss nonetheless. I'd like to be able to use it.
Abyssal Stalker 04-23-07, 01:35 AM	That is how many of us thought it should work. I also recall the conversation Zevox refers to and this argument was brought up. No ruling was made, only conversation. My support goes to allowing dominated allies. (Of course!)
Erithmu 04-23-07, 01:42 AM	I think you misunderstand me. I'm going to sit in front of the dominated person for an hour every morning and _redominate them_ . Since I can do it an infinite # of times & they really can't fight back, I should be able to keep re-trying until they get a low enough saving throw to fail. (if they failed to it once, they WILL fail to it again) Essentially, so long as I have immediate access to the dominated fellow, I should be able to "refresh" the effect. In D&D tabletop terms: The only way someone will stop being dominated is if the vampire can't actually reach the person before the effect wears off. (since in order to refresh the vamp needs to get with 30 ft and look the person in the eye) RE: Being no great loss. Well, at ECL 9 you can get no allies with the "create spawn" ability. At ECL 10 you can get a vampire spawn. At ECL 11 you can get a vampire. At least this way at ECL 9 you could get an ally. Plus, it's just a weak version of leadership. (only works on humanoids who are not immune to mind-affecting abilities) I guess it isn't a huge loss, but it is a loss nonetheless. I'd like to be able to use it. So then ... what happens to your ally if they walk into the range of a Magic circle type of effect, or AMF, or some other type of effect that breaks the dominate? Do you then lose the ally for the remainder of the fight, or do they fight against you? How do you determine rewards if they 'switch teams? I would lean towards 'no' as the option here. I think that it would be very annoying to pitlord if these situations came up.
McJarvis 04-23-07, 06:45 AM	So then ... what happens to your ally if they walk into the range of a Magic circle type of effect, or AMF, or some other type of effect that breaks the dominate? Do you then lose the ally for the remainder of the fight, or do they fight against you? How do you determine rewards if they 'switch teams? I would lean towards 'no' as the option here. I think that it would be very annoying to pitlord if these situations came up. No more annoying than a "confuse" effect or anything like that. We could even make a house-rule to say that such dominated enemies are hostile towards the dominator over any other participant of the battle, if you wanted. Then it's like leadership, but without needing a feat, AND your enemy can use protection from evil//antimagic//etc to turn your ally against you. As far as rewards go: If I dominated an opposing ally, would you make me take a reward penalty for gaining an ally during combat? If the effect gets dispelled and the vampire is unable to re-gain the effect during the battle, then they should have to re-quest for the ally. I really don't think this is a matter of "well, that's too complicated, so let's not". We already have the leadership rules, might as well use those. We also have rules for permanent spells, and how dispelling affects those. The pro:evil spells and anti-magic spells only suppress effects, so they obviously wouldn't remove the ally permanently. @Abyssal: Go ahead and start a council discussion, ya know? Since you already have the vampy? :)
hogarth 04-23-07, 07:03 AM	If the effect gets dispelled and the vampire is unable to re-gain the effect, then they should have to re-quest for the ally. I really don't think this is a matter of "well, that's too complicated, so let's not". We already have the leadership rules, might as well use those. We also have rules for permanent spells, and how dispelling affects those. The pro:evil spells and anti-magic spells only suppress effects, so they obviously wouldn't remove the ally permanently. It just doesn't seem like a very permanent effect to me, considering that the subject gets a saving throw at +2 every time he's forced to do something "against his nature" and he won't do anything "self-destructive" for you. I somehow suspect that fighting in arena battles on someone else's behalf is against most creatures' nature unless they happen to already be allies of yours (via leadership, diplomacy or whatever). How many rounds do you expect the effect to last before a successful save? Even if the subject's Will save only succeeds on a 1, that's about a 50% chance of lasting 14 rounds of "against nature" action.
Abyssal Stalker 04-23-07, 07:19 AM	@Abyssal: Go ahead and start a council discussion, ya know? Since you already have the vampy? :) I'll let you do that :) You can use Jonathon as an example if you wish. He already has a griffon and a leadership ally...
McJarvis 04-23-07, 12:12 PM	It just doesn't seem like a very permanent effect to me, considering that the subject gets a saving throw at +2 every time he's forced to do something "against his nature" and he won't do anything "self-destructive" for you. I somehow suspect that fighting in arena battles on someone else's behalf is against most creatures' nature unless they happen to already be allies of yours (via leadership, diplomacy or whatever). I think it's pretty obvious that this spell is meant for battle(though I could be wrong). That given, "self destructive" shouldn't entail merely fighting in battle, but rather things like "go jump in that lava lake because I cast "share fate" on you and my enemy" As far as being against a creatures nature, this is purely a DM call. A good example would be that if you try to force a paladin to do something against his code of conduct: this is against his nature. Perhaps forcing a level 8 commoner to come and fight with you in the arena would be against his nature. Regardless-> In order to be "against his nature" the act would have to be pretty polarized against the creature's alignment, and should be obviously so. (slaying innocents, helping innocents, etc) How many rounds do you expect the effect to last before a successful save? Even if the subject's Will save only succeeds on a 1, that's about a 50% chance of lasting 14 rounds of "against nature" action. Again, this would entirely depend on what we define "against nature" as. I'm inclined to just make it mean "The dominated creature won't do anything against its alignment or attack its friends" Anywho, that was _alot_ of words for something that shouldn't be so complex. Leting it act as a weaker version of leadership surely isn't broken & it doesn't go against the grain of what the effect is supposed to do(hence the twelve day duration). It wouldn't even take more that a line item in the rules currently: "A vampire's dominate person ability can be used in a similar fashion to leadership, except the dominated creature doesn't level up with the vampire & is vulnerable to dispell/protection from evil/any other effects that would end the spell 'Dominate person'." That seems pretty darn simple to me.
TelinArtho 04-23-07, 12:27 PM	Okay - I think I need some help with this - as I'm really not sure how to figure it out... In August, Cat paid 5 CAPs to send Barthleby, Luken, Telveran, Morgan, Solan all on campaign. The campaign lasted 24 weeks from what I can tell, but many of them were not there for all of it. The rules state that I can make a trade agreement up to the maximum guild ECLs in the campaign * 10. Does this account for the guild ECLs at the start of the campaign? at the end? Does it change per week according to the ECLs at that corresponding week in the campaign? Also - does this trade agreement still cost TRA-PTS to set up? I assume it must since it seems I can use my Perfect Deal to help out. However, how many points does the agreement generate per 100 TRA-PTS? Anyway - I could use some help figuring all of this out.
hogarth 04-23-07, 12:43 PM	I think it's pretty obvious that this spell is meant for battle(though I could be wrong). That given, "self destructive" shouldn't entail merely fighting in battle, but rather things like "go jump in that lava lake because I cast "share fate" on you and my enemy" As far as being against a creatures nature, this is purely a DM call. I would certainly think that the command "sit still while I use a hostile effect (Dominate Person) on you until you fail your save" (as you proposed above) would qualify as "against one's nature" and maybe even "self-destructive". YMMV. Anywho, that was _alot_ of words for something that shouldn't be so complex. Leting it act as a weaker version of leadership surely isn't broken & it doesn't go against the grain of what the effect is supposed to do(hence the twelve day duration). The idea of allowing a vampire (with its huge level adjustment) to have this extra ability isn't too bad, but personally I dislike adding new "stuff" to the CoCo without a compelling reason for it ("not enough people play vampires" doesn't strike me as compelling). I certainly don't want to see someone buying a command-word activated item of Charm Person and using that to scam a free cohort! "But I just have to use it over and over again until my buddy fails his save, right?"
McJarvis 04-23-07, 12:50 PM	Given that when you fail a save you don't actually know it & that there is no external clue that the vampire is dominating you(other than it is making eye contact), I don't think the creature in question even necessarily has to think of the dominate person action as "offensive" Per other comment-> This is in no way an "add on" to the rules-> just a clarification of how this ability works in light of CoCo balance-rules(with regards to allies and the 3FC) RE: Command word charm person item. Perhaps you're right. But then again, I would consider Dominate person much more capable of doing what I want than charm person. I mean, even if you miraculously don't make the subject fail a single save in that hour-long session one morning, you still have 11 days left to try.
hogarth 04-23-07, 12:53 PM	Per other comment-> This is in no way an "add on" to the rules-> just a clarification of how this ability works in light of CoCo balance-rules(with regards to allies and the 3FC). ...a clarification that adds a new regarding how one can acquire allies. In my world, if words have to be added to the "Rules of Gladius", it's a new rule.
McJarvis 04-23-07, 12:56 PM	...a clarification that adds a new regarding how one can acquire allies. In my world, if words have to be added to the "Rules of Gladius", it's a new rule. Technically speaking, allowing the vampire to control it's own spawn would be a "new rule", since both effects(dominate & create spawn) are merely side-effects of being a vampire. Huh. I suppose that's a good point-> this doesn't need to go to council, since it's possible to take a 20 on the saving throw for dominate person & thus it is effectively a perminant effect.(so long as you do it every morning, but spell casters get to prepare spells every morning, so why not your vampy?) Thanks :)
Hirumajoe 04-23-07, 01:04 PM	Technically speaking, allowing the vampire to control it's own spawn would be a "new rule", since both effects(dominate & create spawn) are merely side-effects of being a vampire. Huh. I suppose that's a good point-> this doesn't need to go to council, since it's possible to take a 20 on the saving throw for dominate person & thus it is effectively a perminant effect.(so long as you do it every morning, but spell casters get to prepare spells every morning, so why not your vampy?) Thanks :) You mean take a 1 right? Taking 20 would mean he'd get away every morning... Now here's what you do, you take 10 on a bluff check telling your dominated ally that he should fail his next will save from you because you're casting a Heroism type effect on him, bolstering his resolve.
hogarth 04-23-07, 01:07 PM	Huh. I suppose that's a good point-> this doesn't need to go to council, since it's possible to take a 20 on the saving throw for dominate person & thus it is effectively a perminant effect.(so long as you do it every morning, but spell casters get to prepare spells every morning, so why not your vampy?) It was my understanding that you can't pre-buff an action that has a chance penalty in case of failure (e.g. applying poison if you don't have the Poison Use class feature).
Hirumajoe 04-23-07, 01:10 PM	It was my understanding that you can't pre-buff an action that has a chance of failure (e.g. applying poison if you don't have the Poison Use class feature). Then how do all the psychic warriors take 20 to address their powerstones when they've got 1 point in psicraft and 10 int?
hogarth 04-23-07, 01:11 PM	Then how do all the psychic warriors take 20 to address their powerstones when they've got 1 point in psicraft and 10 int? Sorry -- I meant to say "you can't prebuff anything that has a penalty for failure".
Hirumajoe 04-23-07, 01:12 PM	Sorry -- I meant to say "anything that has a penalty for failure". So whats the penalty for failure for a Vampire attempting to dominate an already dominated humanoid?
Yitzi 04-23-07, 01:12 PM	You mean take a 1 right? Taking 20 would mean he'd get away every morning... Now here's what you do, you take 10 on a bluff check telling your dominated ally that he should fail his next will save from you because you're casting a Heroism type effect on him, bolstering his resolve. Somehow, I think that particular opposed check will have a huge bonus to his role. It was my understanding that you can't pre-buff an action that has a chance of failure (e.g. applying poison if you don't have the Poison Use class feature). But what if there's no penalty to failure?
hogarth 04-23-07, 01:13 PM	So whats the penalty for failure for a Vampire attempting to dominate an already dominated humanoid? The worst case scenario: the humanoid succeeds on his save against the new domination effect, recognizes that subjecting himself to a vampire's gaze is "against his nature" and thus gets a saving throw against the existing domination effect. (Note that creatures can always tell when they succeed on a saving throw.)
McJarvis 04-23-07, 01:15 PM	Remember-> the dominate person (su) ability of the vampire has no verbal, somatic, or any other kind of component. All it requires is that the vampire be merely looking into his target's eyes-> the target could be completely unaware this is happening!
McJarvis 04-23-07, 01:15 PM	I forget where it is, but I'm pretty sure subjects of targeted enchantments don't get to know whether they save or fail if they are unaware of the effect.
hogarth 04-23-07, 01:18 PM	Remember-> the dominate person (su) ability of the vampire has no verbal, somatic, or any other kind of component. All it requires is that the vampire be merely looking into his target's eyes-> the target could be completely unaware this is happening! A successful save is always noticed. "A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack." (I assume the same applies for supernatural or spell-like abilities, but I could be wrong.) By the way, this "Rules of the Game" article might be useful: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20051011a
McJarvis 04-23-07, 01:23 PM	Found it right when you posted A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. If the dominated creature is completely unaware the attack is coming from the vampire, then he can't be aware of doing something "against his nature". Since there is no physical "giveaway" to the gaze attack, there's no way for the target to deduce it is the vampire doing it.
Hirumajoe 04-23-07, 01:24 PM	As far as I can tell, the character already knows he's being dominated and most likely resisting it in general. The spell says you're outright forcing the target. But its only against those actions which are against its nature which generate a saving throw. When I read something like that, I think of fighting when you're a pacifist, or killing an innocent when you're a good character. Big dramatic things. Not just "stand there". Which is all the Vampire is ordering the character to do. Its not like Charm person where you consider the Vampire your friend - this is an outright battle of wills that the character has already lost once. It takes something deep down and fundamental to get another saving throw. Although, does being a Chaotic character mean that any order is against their nature and gets a saving throw anytime the vampire orders them to do anything? I mean, since they dislike authority so much... :D Also one flaw in your plan McJarvis is its a move action to change your Dominated Allies actions. So the creativity and complexitiy of things you can get the person to do might be limited. Dominate Person Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting] Level: Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 5 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 round Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One humanoid Duration: One day/level Saving Throw: Will negates Spell Resistance: Yes You can control the actions of any humanoid creature through a telepathic link that you establish with the subject’s mind. If you and the subject have a common language, you can generally force the subject to perform as you desire, within the limits of its abilities. If no common language exists, you can communicate only basic commands, such as “Come here,” “Go there,” “Fight,” and “Stand still.” You know what the subject is experiencing, but you do not receive direct sensory input from it, nor can it communicate with you telepathically. Once you have given a dominated creature a command, it continues to attempt to carry out that command to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival (such as sleeping, eating, and so forth). Because of this limited range of activity, a Sense Motive check against DC 15 (rather than DC 25) can determine that the subject’s behavior is being influenced by an enchantment effect (see the Sense Motive skill description). Changing your instructions or giving a dominated creature a new command is the equivalent of redirecting a spell, so it is a move action. By concentrating fully on the spell (a standard action), you can receive full sensory input as interpreted by the mind of the subject, though it still can’t communicate with you. You can’t actually see through the subject’s eyes, so it’s not as good as being there yourself, but you still get a good idea of what’s going on. Subjects resist this control, and any subject forced to take actions against its nature receives a new saving throw with a +2 bonus. Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out. Once control is established, the range at which it can be exercised is unlimited, as long as you and the subject are on the same plane. You need not see the subject to control it. If you don’t spend at least 1 round concentrating on the spell each day, the subject receives a new saving throw to throw off the domination. Protection from evil or a similar spell can prevent you from exercising control or using the telepathic link while the subject is so warded, but such an effect neither prevents the establishment of domination nor dispels it.
McJarvis 04-23-07, 01:26 PM	Nod. As stated all along, I wasn't thinking of it as an actual Leadership-like thing, but only a "lesser" version. Ultimately after ECL 9 I'll want to switch over to controlling a spawn.
hogarth 04-23-07, 01:35 PM	As far as I can tell, the character already knows he's being dominated and most likely resisting it in general. The spell says you're outright forcing the target. But its only against those actions which are against its nature which generate a saving throw. When I read something like that, I think of fighting when you're a pacifist, or killing an innocent when you're a good character. Big dramatic things. Not just "stand there". Which is all the Vampire is ordering the character to do. The Rules of the Game article I provided a link for says: If you try to force the subject to act against its nature, it gets a new saving throw with a +2 bonus, and a successful saving throw ends the spell. (It pays to be careful about what you order a dominated subject to do.) The DM must decide what's contrary to the subject's nature. The discussion of things you can accomplish with a charm person spell provides a good basis for what a dominated subject can be made to do without getting a new saving throw. In general, a charmed (or otherwise friendly) person might be expected to be roughly as accommodating to you as a co-worker that trusts you and gets along well with you or as obliging as an old school chum. You shouldn't expect a charmed character to make any truly painful or costly sacrifices for you. You must have a different workplace than mine if your co-workers are willing to kill people on your behalf. ;)
MindWandererB 04-23-07, 01:49 PM	Okay - I think I need some help with this - as I'm really not sure how to figure it out... In August, Cat paid 5 CAPs to send Barthleby, Luken, Telveran, Morgan, Solan all on campaign. The campaign lasted 24 weeks from what I can tell, but many of them were not there for all of it. The rules state that I can make a trade agreement up to the maximum guild ECLs in the campaign * 10. Does this account for the guild ECLs at the start of the campaign? at the end? Does it change per week according to the ECLs at that corresponding week in the campaign? Also - does this trade agreement still cost TRA-PTS to set up? I assume it must since it seems I can use my Perfect Deal to help out. However, how many points does the agreement generate per 100 TRA-PTS? Anyway - I could use some help figuring all of this out.Hmm... I think you have the right idea. You gain (total ECLs) * 10 for a number of weeks equal to however many weeks the character that participated the least was in the campaign, times 2 (Perfect Deal). Then you subtract that character's ECLs from the equation and proceed until another "drops out." As for requiring TRA-PTS, I have no clue. I've asked Cat--CEF currently lacks the ability to process TRA at all, let alone 2400 PTS.
McJarvis 04-23-07, 01:53 PM	The Rules of the Game article I provided a link for says: You must have a different workplace than mine if your co-workers are willing to kill people on your behalf. ;) This is a D&D universe, though. You're warriors-> if you were in the _army_ then perhaps a co-worker would help you kill off some enemy soldiers(eh...Nazis?) to go retrieve the treasure(Eh...Nazi gold?)
sonofzeal 04-23-07, 02:06 PM	I origionally posted this in FotW, but it got buried under the multiple heated discussions: Can somebody take Ilendil Oratith (TelinArtho) vs. The Seeker (NiQil) for me? I'm still in exams, and finishing the FFA is as much time as I'm willing to commit out of my schedule right now.
TelinArtho 04-23-07, 02:21 PM	Hmm... I think you have the right idea. You gain (total ECLs) * 10 for a number of weeks equal to however many weeks the character that participated the least was in the campaign, times 2 (Perfect Deal). Then you subtract that character's ECLs from the equation and proceed until another "drops out." As for requiring TRA-PTS, I have no clue. I've asked Cat--CEF currently lacks the ability to process TRA at all, let alone 2400 PTS. Which leaves me in an even more diverse conundrum than I was earlier... That's it - I'll take armies up the wazoo and invade the next neighboring country (not any of the guilds - I don't want to **** them off more...)
TelinArtho 04-23-07, 02:23 PM	I origionally posted this in FotW, but it got buried under the multiple heated discussions: Can somebody take Ilendil Oratith (TelinArtho) vs. The Seeker (NiQil) for me? I'm still in exams, and finishing the FFA is as much time as I'm willing to commit out of my schedule right now. Best way to handle this is to post the tactics and character sheets so that someone can just take it rather than say they will, wait for tactics to be sent, etc. If someone has the time - they will pick it up. If not - then the tactics are posted and ready for the next pitlord for next week.
sonofzeal 04-23-07, 02:36 PM	Best way to handle this is to post the tactics and character sheets so that someone can just take it rather than say they will, wait for tactics to be sent, etc. If someone has the time - they will pick it up. If not - then the tactics are posted and ready for the next pitlord for next week. Done. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12190142&postcount=796)
McJarvis 04-23-07, 02:50 PM	If no one else takes SonOfZeal's fight by 7pm tonight(est), I'll do it.
TelinArtho 04-23-07, 05:06 PM	Which leaves me in an even more diverse conundrum than I was earlier... That's it - I'll take armies up the wazoo and invade the next neighboring country (not any of the guilds - I don't want to **** them off more...) Okay - so as far as I can tell, this is the breakdown of the weeks (best I can do with the experience breakdown). The campaign is listed at 24 weeks, but the experience list only lists 1-18 - not sure what to do with that... Kracknol weeks 3-18 = 16 weeks Telveren weeks 1-18 = 18 weeks Ignatius weeks 7-18 = 12 weeks Eraca weeks 16-18 = 3 weeks Barthleby weeks 1-16 = 16 weeks Luken weeks 1-16 = 16 weeks Morgan weeks 1-6 = 6 weeks For CEF purposes, Telveren, Barthleby, Luken and Morgan were sent with CAPs. Solan was also listed in the CAP, but I didn't see any mention of him in the campaign log. This means that there's 18+16+16+6=56 character-weeks with an ECL9-10 group. How do I work this out for the trade or armies? @MWB - can I wait to set up the trade with the foreign nation for a few weeks until I have a means to process TRA-PTS?
MindWandererB 04-23-07, 05:17 PM	First of all, remember that the armies are conscripts, and as such are useful for defense only. Assuming that log is correct (and I don't have anything better to go by), you'd get 3 weeks at 700/week, 3 weeks at 600/week, 6 weeks at 500/week, 4 weeks at 200/week, and 2 weeks at 100/week (assuming all characters were ECL 10). Same logic would go for the conscipts: they'd leave progressively as each character ran out of "credit," as it were. I'm not sure what to do about the missing 6 weeks, which probably included Solan. As for the processing, let me hear from Cat first to see if you even need the processing. If you do, you can definitely hold off for a while. In other news: It's time for Gakhnalak's real character development to begin. He'll be going on a 3-week quest starting next week. The official goal will be for his Leadership cohort (and thus the EL will be 4), but since he's simultaneously going to begin down the path of the Dragon Disciple, I'd like to make it big. He'll start off investigating the reason for his continuing nightmares (the Sabra fight was just the trigger), will ask a crazy priestess of the draconic pantheon for help, and wind up recruiting her and embracing his draconic side. Is there anyone interested in questlording this? Time and inclination to do lots of RP is pretty much necessary; I'd rather wait until someone has time than cut down on the plot.
Zevox 04-23-07, 05:31 PM	Solan was also listed in the CAP, but I didn't see any mention of him in the campaign log. I can explain that one. That was when Cat used the CAP for Solan to participate in King Uther's Campaign, "The Liberation of Achos." Reward for that has already been claimed. Zevox
Sjiggie 04-23-07, 05:50 PM	If no one else takes SonOfZeal's fight by 7pm tonight(est), I'll do it. I'll take it start running it now but maybe finish it tomorrow depends on how the fight turns out. -Sjiggie
TheMagister 04-23-07, 07:10 PM	I've been looking for a way to get rid of all those TRA-PTS I've got saved up. WAR has a hand in that campaign as well (16 weeks from Kracknol). WAR would love an unraidable trade agreement: what can we trade for and for how long and for how much? (I know that you guys are confused about this right now. I'll do some looking around in the Guild rules myself and see what I come up with. What I'm really interested in are the products available for trade and the maximum amount of the trade agreement.)
MindWandererB 04-23-07, 07:24 PM	WAR would love an unraidable trade agreement: what can we trade for and for how long and for how much?Just to clarify: the trade route is still raidable.The shipping method is determined by Guildlords and subject to pirates and highwaymen normally.It just cuts the chances down to 1/5 rather than 1/4.
TheMagister 04-23-07, 07:26 PM	Drat. Still useful though.
McJarvis 04-24-07, 08:02 AM	Negative levels. If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. (If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.) In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level. I'm cool with other penalties being lifted right after the fight(so they don't suffer the rest of the 3FC), but how does this affect a wizard's spell slots? Do lost spells count towards spells allowed to be used in combat? Do they get their spells back? After the fight?
hogarth 04-24-07, 08:24 AM	I'm cool with other penalties being lifted right after the fight(so they don't suffer the rest of the 3FC), but how does this affect a wizard's spell slots? Do lost spells count towards spells allowed to be used in combat? Do they get their spells back? After the fight? In my opinion, a lost spell counts as if it were used in that fight and you would not get it back. The same thing (sort of) would apply for a wilder's enervation -- those lost power points are counted as if they were used intentionally. That's just my opinion, though. I'm not sure what the actual rule is.
McJarvis 04-24-07, 09:10 AM	Does level drain affect psionic characters at all PP-wise?
Macbrea 04-24-07, 09:19 AM	I would think it would reduce the maximum number of pp you can spend on augments and powers. If your level 5 and you loose 4 levels you could spend no more then 1 pp as you may not spend more pp then you have levels in a manifester class. Now.. lets see if the faq has anything.
Macbrea 04-24-07, 09:25 AM	Hmm, nothing in the faq.. nothing in the rules stating manifesters are casters. As the magic-psionics transparency doesn't quite go that far. Hmmm.
McJarvis 04-24-07, 09:32 AM	Well, as quoted above-> Negative levels don't actually remove your ability to cast higher level spells, it just removes higher level spell slots. So a "similar" effect on psionic characters would be to take away an amount of PP equal to their caster level. But I don't see any rules support for this mechanic. edit-> RotG to the rescue! Energy Drained: If you take a look at Complete Psionic (page 100) or the sidebar included here, you'll find some rules for dealing with negative levels. From page 100 of Complete Psionic: Each negative level gives a creature a -1 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks; deals 5 points of damage; and gives a -1 penalty to effective level (for determining the duration, DC, and other details of powers or special abilities). Additionally, a psionic manifester loses a number of power points equal to his original manifester level. Negative levels stack. Power point losses for each subsequent stacked negative level are calculated from the effective (lowered) level each time. Furthermore, a spellcaster loses one spell or spell slot from the highest spell level available to him. If two or more spells fit this criterion, the caster decides which one becomes inaccessible. The lost spell becomes available again as soon as the negative level is removed, providing the caster would be capable of using it at that time. source: RotG psionics part 3 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060620a) The passage seems to contradict itself. It says to use the original manifester level as well as the new reduced manifester level.
Hirumajoe 04-24-07, 09:49 AM	The passage seems to contradict itself. It says to use the original manifester level as well as the new reduced manifester level. What its trying to get at is you use the manifester level before that particular energy drain was applied. I.e you're a 20th level manifester, you get energy drained for 2 levels. You lose 20, then you lose 19. You are effectively now a 18th level manifester... although you can still push in 20 power points...
McJarvis 04-24-07, 09:52 AM	Does the psion only have an effective ML of the drained level then? (for purposes of how much PP he can spend on particular effects?) I think the confusion stems from the fact that there is no such thing as an "effective" level with negative levels. You don't lose anything except spells-> you just gain penalties.
Macbrea 04-24-07, 09:58 AM	Just checked pg 100 of the book to make sure it wasn't different. That section needs to be errata'd. :P Why put in the paragraph about a spell caster looses their highest spell in a section talking about manifesters? I am betting what it was suppose to say is the Manifester looses it's highest power in that last paragraph. It would make that make alot more sense if you changed spellcaster for manifester.
Macbrea 04-24-07, 10:03 AM	IE: Each negative level gives a creature a -1 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks; deals 5 points of damage; and gives a -1 penalty to effective level (for determining the duration, DC, and other details of powers or special abilities). Additionally, a psionic manifester loses a number of power points equal to his original manifester level. Negative levels stack. Power point losses for each subsequent stacked negative level are calculated from the effective (lowered) level each time. Furthermore, a spellcaster loses one spell or spell slot from the highest spell level available to him. If two or more spells fit this criterion, the caster decides which one becomes inaccessible. The lost spell becomes available again as soon as the negative level is removed, providing the caster would be capable of using it at that time. vs Each negative level gives a creature a -1 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks; deals 5 points of damage; and gives a -1 penalty to effective level (for determining the duration, DC, and other details of powers or special abilities). Additionally, a psionic manifester loses a number of power points equal to his original manifester level. Negative levels stack. Power point losses for each subsequent stacked negative level are calculated from the effective (lowered) level each time. Furthermore, a manifester loses one power from the highest power level available to him. If two or more powers fit this criterion, the manifester decides which one becomes inaccessible. The lost power becomes available again as soon as the negative level is removed, providing the manifester would be capable of using it at that time. That would make that paragraph make more sense and might be correct and far more readable.
McJarvis 04-24-07, 10:17 AM	No..I think the passage is supposed to take the place of the negative level entry in the monster manual. Note that sorcerers do not lose both a spell known AND a spell slot, they just lose a spell slot.
Macbrea 04-24-07, 10:35 AM	Nevermind.
waywreth 04-24-07, 01:00 PM	Quick confirmation - You are allowed to use any and all remaining spell levels and/or powerpoints in the 3rd fight, correct? I want to confirm this applies if the character leveled mid-cycle (since I see no reason to penalize a character for leveling, I would think it would, but wanted to be sure).
TelinArtho 04-24-07, 01:09 PM	That is correct
Zevox 04-24-07, 01:21 PM	Quick confirmation - You are allowed to use any and all remaining spell levels and/or powerpoints in the 3rd fight, correct? I want to confirm this applies if the character leveled mid-cycle (since I see no reason to penalize a character for leveling, I would think it would, but wanted to be sure). Yep yep. So if you had a fight or two in the cycle where you used little, then level up before the 3rd fight, you can indeed wind up with some insane amount of spells or pp to use in one fight (see Istima Telarc in Istima vs Hood vs Ihdald). Zevox
Yitzi 04-24-07, 03:13 PM	Yes, but you're more likely to lose the other 2 if you don't use spells.
TelinArtho 04-24-07, 03:24 PM	Yes, but you're more likely to lose the other 2 if you don't use spells. Not necessarily true. Sometimes things just work out better, while for others, they actually plan for a mini-supernova. Take for instance a 3rd level wizard with a CL3 Magic Missile wand. In his first two fights, he meets up with opponents who have no access to the shield spell nor the ability to close with the wizard fast enough before he whips them with magic missiles. In his third fight - he suddenly has access to all of his spell levels for the entire cycle. Compound this with an ECL3 character who levels up after those first two fights... If the CL3 wand is "too expensive" for you - substitute it with strategic and lucky usage of sleep, color spray or some other spell that debilitates your opponent enough to turn the tides in your favor. Pearls of power can do wondrous things as well. Kraegin is the worst offender around (yes - my character), with access to 27 SLs per fight, but also 20 SLs in Pearls that he can recall - either during a fight or as prebuffs between fights. In actuality, most opponents are best off fighting Kraegin in week 1. By week 3, he usually has used all of his pearls - but it also means he usually still has the bulk of his spell levels recalled...
Zevox 04-24-07, 03:46 PM	(Taken out of Prison) Ceilia's new Djinni skeleton lists a conditional modifier from bless. However, bless is a mind-affecting spell and thus does not work on the skeleton. Also, the Natural AC bonus for a large skeleton is +2, not +5. The Large [Ma] Mighty (+4 Str) Composite longbow is incorrectly priced. It should be: (100gp (base) + 400gp (str rating))*2 (Large) + 300 ([Ma] Component) = 1300gp. Bless - true. I've never thought of being immune to mind-affecting spells as a negative thing before. Huh. Fixed. Natural Armor - I'm pretty sure that skeletons add that to the base creature's natural armor. Checking.... wow, they don't. Dang. Oh well. Fixed. Bow - Last time it came up, I recall whoever was asking being told that the strength rating is not doubled in price for large composite bows (by an Elder IIRC - either MWB or Sauro I think). I believe you are in error here. Zevox
TelinArtho 04-24-07, 04:00 PM	On the bow. The last time I see it discussed in the tavern was June of 2006, which is Tavern #6. TheMagister offered the following as the "correct" price on a bow: Important note: you only double the base cost of the weapon. The masterwork component is never doubled. Still, this can get expensive for deepcrystal and crystal weapons. It is actually compounded for mighty bows that are also deepcrystal. Ex. - Price a Large [Ma] Mighty (+3) Deepcrystal Composite Longbow! Composite Longbow = 100 gp Mighty (+3) = +300 gp Deepcrystal = +1000 gp Base Cost: 1,400 gp Large Multiplier (x2) = 2,800 gp Masterwork Component = +300 gp Total = 3,100 gp. You and I both corrected him with this: Actually - this analysis is slightly wrong - since Deep Crystal is always masterwork: 100gp (base) + 300gp (mighty +3) + (1000-300) (deep crystal, less the [Ma] component) = 1100gp * 2 = 2200gp + 300gp ([Ma] Component) = 2500gp. Slight correcion there - Deepcrystal is always masterwork, and has the price for it built in. So you'd only double its cost minus the 300 gp for masterwork, which means you end up with 100 bow + 300 str +700 crystal w/o MW = 1,100 x2 large = 2,200 +300 masterwork = 2,500 gp. I'm still looking though - so check back in a bit.
Zevox 04-24-07, 04:02 PM	I'm sure this came up more recently than tavern 6... might've been in one of the council threads or the oracle thread though, which would make it tougher to track down... Edit: Well, as an example, you could take the link in MWB's sig to his old character Sunstroke. His bow clearly doesn't multiply the strength bonus (and I know he at one point was reported for such but exonerated), and I don't think we've changed our ruling on that since he was retired. Zevox
TelinArtho 04-24-07, 04:11 PM	No worries - I have many of the threads saved locally, so I'm just searching through them. Of course finding the correct key words is a bit of an issue, but it is going well. Ask an Elder thread (~Aug 2006) Interesting issue just came up: the price on a Large composite bow. We have two conflicting Elder rulings on the subject. Pittbull is on record as saying that the Strength component is not doubled (so a Large Composite [+4] bow would cost: [100(base) x2(large)] +400(+4) +300(MW) = 900gp). NiQil, on the other hand, recently put up an audit where the Strength component was doubled (so that same bow would be 1300 gp). We need a tiebreaker on the subject, if someone doesn't mind. The reasoning behind my opinion on this subject is that the base cost of a +0 Str Composite Longbow is listed at 100 gp. Therefore, that would make the base cost of a +1 Str Composite Longbow 200 gp, the base of a +2 Str Composite Longbow 300 gp, etc. The composite longbow listed on the weapons chart is considered a +0 bow, so if you are changing the Str output, then the base cost changes. Then you would add the large cost, then the mw cost. You are not changing a basic bow (+0) to a more advanced bow (+1, etc), but rather designing a different basic bow to begin with, and then building on it from there. So the large cost would be taken from the cost of the base bow, including it's Str modifier. If the cost of the Str modifier is not part of the base cost, then there should not be any rules against upping the Str modifier of an existing the bow, because it would be a modification like any enchantment. and then Pittbull a few posts later: I agree with NiQil on everything: - Metapsionic powers on stones - Spontaneous casting of arcane spells. - And even his ruling on large composite bows with str-increase. I think his explanation is quite reasonable. My fault! BTW: I still dislike his ruling on Dissolving weapon on bows, GRRRRRRR! POOR LAPH! :mad: ;) :weep: [only mentioned, to say something against him!] And then it goes silent for a while... still searching.
MindWandererB 04-24-07, 04:16 PM	Yeah... the last I heard of it, officially, was when Sunstroke was audited. His sheet is still the sample audit on the first page of the Prison... so if the rule is changed from that, the example audit really ought to be also....
TelinArtho 04-24-07, 04:17 PM	I've searched through the remaining threads - except this tavern thread. This means it hasn't been mentioned more recently (that I've found) than August of last year. Since that is the last mention of it - you should take that as the rule. If you want to bring it back up though - for a formal discussion, please do - I just don't see much to support the other method of calculation. For the record I searched through Tavern 4-8, Ask an Elder, Oracle of Gladius, Courtroom of Gladius, Council III (since I and II are previous to the August discussion). [EDIT] And I searched this thread as well and didn't find it.
Zevox 04-24-07, 04:24 PM	Hm. Very well then, looks like Ceilia pays another 400 gp for that bow. ...and done. Please remove the violations Telin. Zevox
TelinArtho 04-24-07, 04:29 PM	Done. I just noticed the Morale bonus in passing, so when I went back to make sure there wasn't anything else - I just happened to pick up a few other things. I hope people appreciate the meaning behind me posting violations. It usually means I am looking at something you are doing because of one of a few reasons: 1. You are an opponent for me in the current week. 2. You are an ally with me for the current week 3. I am looking up your character for reference material for a build I am working on... Since Ceilia is neither 1 or 2, you can guess why I was looking her over...
McJarvis 04-24-07, 04:35 PM	Can you start a character off & then later pay credits to level him? I'm working on a summoner build, but I'm not sure I have the patience to level him up to the high levels I desire.
Rauul 04-24-07, 04:36 PM	Done. I hope people appreciate the meaning behind me posting violations. It usually means I am looking at something you are doing because of one of a few reasons: 1. You are an opponent for me in the current week. 2. You are an ally with me for the current week 3. I am looking up your character for reference material for a build I am working on... Since Ceilia is neither 1 or 2, you can guess why I was looking her over... Pffff Why where you looking at corrupter!! Noone wants a necromancer...
TelinArtho 04-24-07, 04:38 PM	Can you start a character off & then later pay credits to level him? I'm working on a summoner build, but I'm not sure I have the patience to level him up to the high levels I desire. Yes and no. You can start him off as normal, but when you want to "boost" his level up - you'll need to pay credits as if from starting him fresh (as far as I can tell). Summoner builds are tough at CL3-4, but once you hit CL5 - I think it becomes a lot easier. It depends on which route you take of course and how devoted you are to using summoning.
McJarvis 04-24-07, 04:40 PM	Yes and no. You can start him off as normal, but when you want to "boost" his level up - you'll need to pay credits as if from starting him fresh (as far as I can tell). Summoner builds are tough at CL3-4, but once you hit CL5 - I think it becomes a lot easier. It depends on which route you take of course and how devoted you are to using summoning. PM'd ideas to you :)
MindWandererB 04-24-07, 04:40 PM	Since Ceilia is neither 1 or 2, you can guess why I was looking her over...Great... that's all the rest of us need, another Celia to deal with. I can't even figure out why, exactly, Celia kicks so much butt. She looks good but not amazing on paper. At least, pre-djinni. That's a big one--I can hardly imagine how tough she's going to be now.
TelinArtho 04-24-07, 04:41 PM	Pffff Why where you looking at corrupter!! Noone wants a necromancer... Really? That's strange since I posted a necromancer just last week who will be active this upcoming week... Trust me - I have a lot of designs that I work on. Having some other builds to help me work from is part of what I love about this board. Of course, some of my designs are pretty "original" - meaning I have no one else to base the build off of (most notably Brathel the Hunter (my hound archon - not yet posted) and Ch't Ch' Ch' (my Drider - not yet posted)). For the most part though, I use other designs to help flesh out weaknesses or to help identify where I can extract strength.
TelinArtho 04-24-07, 04:42 PM	PM'd ideas to you :) Are you sure? I don't think I've received them...
McJarvis 04-24-07, 04:44 PM	Are you sure? I don't think I've received them... If you ever met me in person, you'd know I consider time relative. I'm typing them now.
TelinArtho 04-24-07, 04:46 PM	If you ever met me in person, you'd know I consider time relative. I'm typing them now. Oh that's good. For the first time in I-don't-know-how-long my PM box is actually empty - so I was sure I hadn't seen it... Of course I am prone to bouts of short-term memory loss (seriously - just ask my wife - I never remember things she says... :D )
Rauul 04-24-07, 04:48 PM	Oh that's good. For the first time in I-don't-know-how-long my PM box is actually empty - so I was sure I hadn't seen it... Of course I am prone to bouts of short-term memory loss (seriously - just ask my wife - I never remember things she says... :D ) thats called "Selective" memory... i know i have been told i have it also
MindWandererB 04-24-07, 04:54 PM	Oh that's good. For the first time in I-don't-know-how-long my PM box is actually empty - so I was sure I hadn't seen it... Of course I am prone to bouts of short-term memory loss (seriously - just ask my wife - I never remember things she says... :D ) It's a universal trait. Just ask any doctor who's worked in geriatrics. I know several doctors who've told me the same story: a man comes in to get his hearing checked, but the tests come out fine. The doctor asks why the man thought there was something wrong with his hearing, and he says, "because my wife tells me I never hear anything she says." But, take that with a grain of salt: I've caught my wife trying to tell me to do something while speaking too quietly for any human being to hear. I'm not sure if it's accidental, or a conspiracy so that she can throw it in my face later.
McJarvis 04-24-07, 04:54 PM	Actually-sent now. :-) That's a paragraph summary of about six months of ideas all mashed into one character build.
hogarth 04-24-07, 04:56 PM	Great... that's all the rest of us need, another Celia to deal with. I can't even figure out why, exactly, Celia kicks so much butt. She looks good but not amazing on paper. At least, pre-djinni. That's a big one--I can hardly imagine how tough she's going to be now. My opinion is that mounted combat builds are pretty good at low levels (and beyond), clerics are pretty good at higher levels, and Zevox writes pretty good tactics. Note that a chunk of luck is involved, too -- she has had 2 FFA/hunter fights out of 14 so far (her very first and her very last) and Kilpquabjeg (a character of similar vintage) has had 5 FFA/hunter fights out of 15. And Ceilia could have easily failed one of her two DC 11 saves vs. Sleep when she fought Kilpquabjeg many moons ago...
Rauul 04-24-07, 04:58 PM	I just looked through the Guilds.. looking for a Home for Shadow.. and None of them fit... Guess he will just have to Live for free off the Barmaids of Gladius..
Zevox 04-24-07, 05:15 PM	And Ceilia could have easily failed one of her two DC 11 saves vs. Sleep when she fought Kilpquabjeg many moons ago... Pah, she had a +5 (or was it +6? Forgot if she had her first cloak of resistance at that level or not) to resist it with, and you had a 50/50 chance to get her horse instead. Kilp was overmatched in that one. Now, with her current form (Ego Whip especially...), it would be a much tougher fight if the two ever met again. Personally, I think theres three reasons Ceilia does so well. The first is that she has relatively few weaknesses. Her hp is high (and can get higher with Aid and her heartening shield), her AC is huge (and to back that up she just got DR 3/- armor), with her mounts shes very fast and tough to hide from, with mounted combat she can defend those mounts well, with a few buffs her attack is high enough that she'll rarely miss most foes, with buffs and her high strength (and extra attacks from her mount) she does good damage, and two of her three saves (the two that save-or-dies generally use) are quite high. Her only real weaknesses are her tough AC (tough for most foes to take advantage of, and she can use energy resistance spells vs the most common ways of doing it), her reflex save (which is rarely needed, since casters around here prefer save-or-dies, and most of the spells that hit it use an energy type for her to resist), her ranged attacks (which can be corrected with buffs quite easily), and her speed if she gets dismounted (which doesn't happen often). Oh, and her low charisma vs Ego Whip, but she has yet to meet an Ego Whipper, and with many of them I expect her high will save will keep that at bay long enough to kill the manifester. The second is that shes pretty versatile. She can do huge damage from charges like any other mounted character, she can do straight melee for consistent damage due to her high attack and her mount's support, she can use her spells for lots of different tricks (save-or-dies, buffs, damaging spells, other types of support spells), and with buffs she can even do ranged combat decently (though shes never had to thus far), plus until the ruling that Trampling used the rider's standard action she had that too (I'm currently trying to figure out what to replace that feat with - it'll probably be changed shortly after I start pitlording again). The third is that I seem to write my best tactics for her fights. I have no idea why, but its something I've noticed. Its appropriate though in any event - she is a Priestess of the Goddess of Strategy, after all. Zevox
hogarth 04-24-07, 05:19 PM	Pah, she had a +5 (or was it +6? Forgot if she had her first cloak of resistance at that level or not) to resist it with, and you had a 50/50 chance to get her horse instead. In my experience, most pitlords allow a caster to target a Sleep spell so that the rider will be affected first (e.g. an inch before the rider's nose). That's certainly how it worked out in that fight; Ceilia made her saves fair and square. I agree that Kilpquabjeg was outclassed at the time. I didn't really know what direction I was going with her.
SauroGrenom 04-24-07, 05:21 PM	But, take that with a grain of salt: I've caught my wife trying to tell me to do something while speaking too quietly for any human being to hear. I'm not sure if it's accidental, or a conspiracy so that she can throw it in my face later.I call this the "Tar Pit". All the women I've ever known have a supernatural ability to remember everything that insults, annoys or angers them. All these events go into the Tar Pit. Then at some latter time, she drags it out. Then I'm confronted with a word, phrase or other misdeed from weeks, months or years ago. Somehow, I can vaguely recall the misdeed, and I have a sense that the circumstances surrounding it are important in determining the severity of my crime. But alas, I cannot recall the important details, and am therefore indefensibly guilty as charged.
MindWandererB 04-24-07, 05:22 PM	I call this the "Tar Pit". All the women I've ever known have a supernatural ability to remember everything that insults, annoys or angers them. All these events go into the Tar Pit. Then at some latter time, she drags it out. Then I'm confronted with a word, phrase or other misdeed from weeks, months or years ago. Somehow, I can vaguely recall the misdeed, and I have a sense that the circumstances surrounding it are important in determining the severity of my crime. But alas, I cannot recall the important details, and am therefore indefensibly guilty as charged. I know one woman who can't do that. Sadly, she's not the one I married.
Zevox 04-24-07, 05:48 PM	In my experience, most pitlords allow a caster to target a Sleep spell so that the rider will be affected first (e.g. an inch before the rider's nose). That's certainly how it worked out in that fight; Ceilia made her saves fair and square. It shouldn't - by the rules, the mount and rider share the same space, period. You have to position the spell based on the game's grid-and-squares positioning rules, which don't allow you to miss the horse and hit the rider. Zevox
hogarth 04-24-07, 05:53 PM	It shouldn't - by the rules, the mount and rider share the same space, period. You have to position the spell based on the game's grid-and-squares positioning rules, which don't allow you to miss the horse and hit the rider. It's a little late to complain about it now. :P
Zevox 04-24-07, 05:56 PM	It's a little late to complain about it now. :P *shrugs* I wasn't referring specifically to that fight, just to the mechanics in general (since you've seen it run like that elsewhere). Zevox
Yitzi 04-24-07, 06:14 PM	I just looked through the Guilds.. looking for a Home for Shadow.. and None of them fit... Guess he will just have to Live for free off the Barmaids of Gladius.. The Loyalists are big on politics, you might want to consider that. The Arcane Order might be good for a bard-he's not a wizard, but he does use arcane magic. Depending on how evil he is, EHTC might be an option. CEF, TLT, and PSI are definite no's for an evil city-class nonpsionic. Now, a neutral pure rogue (without many CHA skills)-that's someone who fits in no guild.
Malither76 04-24-07, 08:41 PM	can someone give me a quick run down of how polymorph works here. Thanks
Rauul 04-24-07, 08:42 PM	The Loyalists are big on politics, you might want to consider that. The Arcane Order might be good for a bard-he's not a wizard, but he does use arcane magic. Depending on how evil he is, EHTC might be an option. CEF, TLT, and PSI are definite no's for an evil city-class nonpsionic. Now, a neutral pure rogue (without many CHA skills)-that's someone who fits in no guild. Loyalists are Lawful *upchuck*... arcane order are well Scholors (not a place for a street punk).. EHTC maybe an option... CEF :evillaugh :evillaugh
NiQil 04-24-07, 09:24 PM	can someone give me a quick run down of how polymorph works here. Thanks That's a little like asking for the cliff notes version of astro-physics.....
Yitzi 04-24-07, 09:27 PM	can someone give me a quick run down of how polymorph works here. Thanks Taken straight from the rules thread: Polymorph: Polymorph and all related spells/powers work differently in the coco. Knowledge: You must have an (appropriate) total Knowledge score equal to twice the HD of the monster you want to polymorph in. This also applies to Alter Self, Polymorph any Object, Shapechange, and Metamorphosis. Size Restriction: Polymorph forms must be within one size category just like Alter Self. Size Stacking: Polymorph (including Alter Self, Metamorphosis, Polymorph any Object, Shapechange, and Wild Shape) that changes your size count as a size change for purposes of stacking with other size-modifying spells and powers. Share Spells: Polymorph (including Alter Self, Metamorphosis, Polymorph any Object, Shapechange) is not shared with your familiar. You can specifically cast polymorph on it though (instead of yourself). Scrolls/Stones: Just like resist energy and other spells, expendables with polymorph (including Alter Self, Metamorphosis, Polymorph any Object, Shapechange) must be specified beforehand. Example: Scroll of Alter Self (Troglodyte). This only applies to expendables; not to memorized spells.
Vathelokai 04-24-07, 10:46 PM	Loyalists are Lawful *upchuck*... arcane order are well Scholors (not a place for a street punk).. EHTC maybe an option... CEF :evillaugh :evillaugh TAO never minds having some sneaky backup... just look at Psychosis. Had 2 or three bards in the past and they worked out well.
Zevox 04-25-07, 12:00 AM	Well, I have a minor problem I should let you all know about. The cable connection at my house (and from the sounds of things, the rest of the houses in my area) went down, so I'm without internet access there (I'm presently at my Grandmother's - had a school project that needed doing via the internet). From the sounds of things, we won't have the connection back until thursday at best. The good news is that I'll still be able to participate here at least somewhat - I can always go up to my school, which has computers with internet I can use during the day - but in the unlikely event the connection isn't fixed fast I may be taking a forced leave for a week or two (I certainly hope no more than that). I'll take care of the EHTC tonight, and at worst do tactics (if any of my characters are actually active next week - looks like I'll have two holdovers again...) at school on thursday. Hopefully I'll be back as usual thursday or friday. If not, I'll find a way to get ya'll appraised of the situation. Wish me luck with this :( . Zevox
Abyssal Stalker 04-25-07, 01:07 AM	:thumbsup:
Malither76 04-25-07, 09:51 AM	if your on a quest now, does the 3fc come into play. I know before the 3 encounters would all occur almost one after another you know with some roleplay in between. I guess the real question is how do spells and effects lasting hours per level work in quest now, is there a time rolled between encounter or are you pretty much good for all 3 encounters with you buffs. thanks
TelinArtho 04-25-07, 09:59 AM	In a full quest - it is assumed that the alloted time expires between each encounter according to the time roll set with pairings. This is enforced in the Guild missions. For regular quests - I'm fairly certain that it is still adjudicated by the questlord in question. If it was me running the quest though - I am consistent across the board and use the time roll. If you are on a guild quest in the singular situations where your 3FC ends mid-quest - all your buffs expire between the 3FC. So, for instance, Sir Valkin started his mission on week 2 of his cycle. He had summoned his Special mount in week 1 and the duration is subject to the time roll. However, no matter how much time is left (if any) after the 3rd week of his cycle (between the 2nd and 3rd encounter) - all of his prebuffs from the first cycle end. If he wants Overseer in his 3rd encounter - he'll need to resummon him. Note that only guild missions can overlap the 3FC (and unless you're a frozen character - overlapping is often worse than just running within the 3FC)
Zevox 04-25-07, 10:36 AM	Well, good news. Turns out the problem with my area's cable connection was fixed overnight. Guess I overreacted (probably because last time something like this happened it was week-long ordeal). Of course, now my laptop is having problems, but we have two more computers in my house, so that won't stop me from participating here. Zevox
TelinArtho 04-25-07, 11:49 AM	With regard to the item that Rauul wanted approval for, I am of the opinion that such an item should be priced as a skill bonus item rather than the spell itself. As such, the pricing would be as follows: +10 (skill bonus)^2 *100gp base price = 10,000gp. 2/day = 4000gp. 50 charges = 2000gp. This way - a charged per day and total charged overall item doesn't make regular items of skill bonus obsolete. In other words - my suggestion is to use the top part of the chart in the Magic Item chart when possible. When the desired effect is not one of those - then the pricing per spell could be used instead. It also keeps our pricing within reason. Let's take the case of some special boots of Jumping. One version is just a continuous +10 bonus to jump. Per the pricing rules, this is 10000gp (10*10*100 = 10000gp). The next version is a continuous Jump spell at CL1. This provides a +10 bonus to jump. Per the pricing rules, this would cost 4000gp (1*1*2000*2 (minutes/level duration) = 4000gp. With my suggestion for pricing, this would still cost 10kgp. The last version is a 3/day Jump spell at CL5. This provides a +20 bonus to jump. Per the pricing rules, this would cost 12000gp (1*5*2000*2*.6 = 12000gp). With my suggestion for pricing, this would cost 24000gp. This should help stabilize the pricing for items. Comments?
hogarth 04-25-07, 11:59 AM	With regard to the item that Rauul wanted approval for, I am of the opinion that such an item should be priced as a skill bonus item rather than the spell itself. As such, the pricing would be as follows: +10 (skill bonus)^2 *100gp base price = 10,000gp. 2/day = 4000gp. 50 charges = 2000gp. [..snip..] This should help stabilize the pricing for items. Comments? While it makes some sense for it to be based off of the skill bonus pricing, in that case the duration of the effect should have some effect on the price. A charged item that gives a +10 to Hide for one round shouldn't cost the same as a charged item that gives a +10 to Hide for one hour. Personally, I'd just refuse the item; there are already Elixirs of Hiding, Skins of the Chameleon and Cloaks of Elvenkind that you can purchase (or base your new item off of). One more thought: are you suggesting that a Hat of Disguise should cost 10,000 gp?
TelinArtho 04-25-07, 12:14 PM	While it makes some sense for it to be based off of the skill bonus pricing, in that case the duration of the effect should have some effect on the price. A charged item that gives a +10 to Hide for one round shouldn't cost the same as a charged item that gives a +10 to Hide for one hour. Personally, I'd just refuse the item; there are already Elixirs of Hiding, Skins of the Chameleon and Cloaks of Elvenkind that you can purchase (or base your new item off of). One more thought: are you suggesting that a Hat of Disguise should cost 10,000 gp? First off, I cannot comment on the price of items already in existence. It is well known that not all of them follow the same price scheme nor do they necessarily all agree with each other. Secondly - you are right that I don't account for different time issues. That was something I didn't account for. Right now - the item is refused - so if the desire is to keep it that way - so be it. I was just proposing another method to this line of thinking.
SauroGrenom 04-25-07, 03:59 PM	Telin, I had forgotten about the top section of that chart when I was doing the blackmarket this morning. I think you are correct. Whenever possible we should use the pricing that appears higher on the chart. We can apply judgment as needed to compliment that. To do otherwise is to invite a 1/day extended augmented inertial armor item that totally outclasses equivalent priced bracers of armor.
McJarvis 04-25-07, 04:11 PM	Telin, I had forgotten about the top section of that chart when I was doing the blackmarket this morning. I think you are correct. Whenever possible we should use the pricing that appears higher on the chart. We can apply judgment as needed to compliment that. To do otherwise is to invite a 1/day extended augmented inertial armor item that totally outclasses equivalent priced bracers of armor. I'm pretty sure height on the chart means nothing-> The rule of thumb(as with that mage armor item) is that if there is an equivilent item that is printed in the DMG that costs more, then the item in question should cost more.
SauroGrenom 04-25-07, 06:18 PM	Is that lonewolf lurking around? I hope you're looking at coming back.
Sjiggie 04-25-07, 07:44 PM	Is it just me or are almost all of the new psionic characters forgetting to put 1 rank into psicraft to use powerstones? Just something I noticed when looking into the prison.
Horatius 04-25-07, 08:11 PM	1. Can a character cast a spell while holding two wands (one in each hand)? 2. I assume wand charges must be displayed on char sheets - would it be a prison violation not to? I couldn't find this in the Rules of Gladius.
hogarth 04-25-07, 08:14 PM	1. Can a character cast a spell while holding two wands (one in each hand)? 2. I assume wand charges must be displayed on char sheets - would it be a prison violation not to? I couldn't find this in the Rules of Gladius. 1. No, you have to have a hand free to cast spells with somatic components. 2. Sounds like a violation to me.
Yitzi 04-25-07, 09:13 PM	A number of people seem to have scrolls listed in the SRD at CLs not listed in the SRD. Does this require credits? Also, does it require credits to add a metamagic feat to a scroll?
Sjiggie 04-25-07, 09:29 PM	A number of people seem to have scrolls listed in the SRD at CLs not listed in the SRD. Does this require credits?I don't believe it costs credits when it is specified who scribed them. Also, does it require credits to add a metamagic feat to a scroll? Not when it doesn't take the CL of the scroll above your ECL+2
Zevox 04-26-07, 12:10 AM	A number of people seem to have scrolls listed in the SRD at CLs not listed in the SRD. Does this require credits? Also, does it require credits to add a metamagic feat to a scroll? No to both. Strangely, we allow scrolls of any spell at any CL, even though potions, wands, etc need to use the charts. Hm... I wonder if we could actually get that changed now that MWB is in charge... Zevox
MindWandererB 04-26-07, 01:47 AM	Let me repeat myself here: no changes of that magnitude are going to happen until the person in charge is the one with the GM title. That'll happen when Cat either returns or has the title transferred.
Malither76 04-26-07, 02:50 AM	if you prebuff and ally do you have to bring it into the battle And if you are on a Miniquest out of cycle, does it start the cycle as week one or do you come back and can still buy stuff and then go back to the arena to start the cycle?
Erithmu 04-26-07, 03:02 AM	if you prebuff and ally do you have to bring it into the battle And if you are on a Miniquest out of cycle, does it start the cycle as week one or do you come back and can still buy stuff and then go back to the arena to start the cycle? 1) You do not have to bring it into the battle, but you are still penalized the experience. 2) If a MQ is out of cycle you can buy stuff before and after it. The MQ uses the 1/3 rule on everything however.
Malither76 04-26-07, 03:13 AM	wow your still penalized guess there is no reason not to bring it then
templer10 04-26-07, 03:59 AM	are psionic tattoes usable when wildshaped?
Zevox 04-26-07, 01:00 PM	are psionic tattoes usable when wildshaped? Presuming you're in a form with limbs capable of touching them, sure. Zevox
hogarth 04-26-07, 01:05 PM	are psionic tattoes usable when wildshaped? Technically, all equipment absorbs into your body when you're wild shaped. Personally, I would allow certain things (like tattoos) to stay, but the rules are pretty clear. Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional.
Rauul 04-26-07, 01:17 PM	can someone take a look at corrupter (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11532929&postcount=1074) and tell me if i have him set right... never set a charater before for a full activity of crafting...
TelinArtho 04-26-07, 01:27 PM	Its fine. For crafting purposes - you are allowed to craft up to 7kgp Market Value worth of items - so in general it is better/easier for pitlords to have them marked at Market Value. Other than that - it should be fine. Interesting choice of item by the way...
Rauul 04-26-07, 01:33 PM	Its fine. For crafting purposes - you are allowed to craft up to 7kgp Market Value worth of items - so in general it is better/easier for pitlords to have them marked at Market Value. Other than that - it should be fine. Interesting choice of item by the way... Thanks and I changed it... should I add the Robe is small sized? :schemes:
Rauul 04-26-07, 01:39 PM	next question... does it cost credits to have 2 charaters crafting (it don't take pitlord time)?
hogarth 04-26-07, 01:40 PM	Thanks and I changed it... should I add the Robe is small sized? :schemes: Magical clothing resizes to fit the wearer. Note, however, that undead created with a Robe of Bones is uncontrolled so a mephit (say) who used the robe to summon a skeleton might find himself attacked by it!
Macbrea 04-26-07, 01:43 PM	next question... does it cost credits to have 2 charaters crafting (it don't take pitlord time)? A full action is still a character activation. It costs 1 credit per character over the second one same as if they were fighting.
Rauul 04-26-07, 01:46 PM	Magical clothing resizes to fit the wearer. Note, however, that undead created with a Robe of Bones is uncontrolled so a mephit (say) who used the robe to summon a skeleton might find himself attacked by it! correct... but the evil cleric cohort can control them with no problem.. :) and they don't count as allies
Rauul 04-26-07, 01:47 PM	A full action is still a character activation. It costs 1 credit per character over the second one same as if they were fighting. guess next week i have no chararters fighting then other than the one on the guild quest... no problem
Macbrea 04-26-07, 01:56 PM	Yeah, I errored last week without paying attention. I had Izumi fighting and Relanex crafting. What I forgot was Lord Frost was in the IMT. I really didn't particularly want to spend a credit on him to fight in a frozen tourneyment.
MindWandererB 04-26-07, 02:06 PM	I haven't been counting the IMT characters for this purpose. For one, it's really hard to keep track of (mostly because I can't edit the formap pairings posts for the IMT), and for another, I don't want to penalize anyone for participating in the tournament.
Macbrea 04-26-07, 02:09 PM	Hmmm, ah.. it was on the 18th. I just noticed I had Relanex, Razorfang and Lars active. Relanex crafting.. yup.. should have lost 1 credit. :P
Rauul 04-26-07, 02:11 PM	Yeah, I errored last week without paying attention. I had Izumi fighting and Relanex crafting. What I forgot was Lord Frost was in the IMT. I really didn't particularly want to spend a credit on him to fight in a frozen tourneyment. Well I guess Shadow can take a well needed break after this week as Rauul and The Corrupter craft.. The Orc is on a guild mission (he will be crafting after the mission anyways) and I am in the Neg credits...
MindWandererB 04-26-07, 02:15 PM	Hmmm, ah.. it was on the 18th. I just noticed I had Relanex, Razorfang and Lars active. Relanex crafting.. yup.. should have lost 1 credit. :P Checking my log... yep, you did. It was balanced out by the credit you earned by pitlording.
Erithmu 04-26-07, 03:03 PM	@Rauul: you should know that you can only craft outside of a cycle. It looks like you still have your 3 fight to take care of.
Rauul 04-26-07, 04:08 PM	@Rauul: you should know that you can only craft outside of a cycle. It looks like you still have your 3 fight to take care of. opps your right... well looks like the corrupter fights without cohort and undead this week.. guess he could bring moses incase he get paired with Izumi or another meleer.. but No will be Just him and Gravedigger :)
Yitzi 04-26-07, 07:15 PM	For the automatic skill Court Connections, is the bonus in percent equal to your skill (K:N&R) bonus, or your skill via take 10?
MindWandererB 04-26-07, 07:19 PM	For the automatic skill Court Connections, is the bonus in percent equal to your skill (K:N&R) bonus, or your skill via take 10? Your actual skill total.
Yitzi 04-26-07, 07:44 PM	Is there a distance penalty to spot checks not made to determine encounter distance? The SRD implies no, but the entry in the rules of gladius implies yes.
hogarth 04-26-07, 07:59 PM	For the automatic skill Court Connections, is the bonus in percent equal to your skill (K:N&R) bonus, or your skill via take 10? I'm pretty sure it's equal to your skill bonus, not your "take 10" value.
Yitzi 04-26-07, 08:02 PM	I'm pretty sure it's equal to your skill bonus, not your "take 10" value. Looks like MWB disagrees. So, what's the final decision? I also need the answer to my spot question for the fight I'm running.
MindWandererB 04-26-07, 08:05 PM	That's what I said... or what I meant to. Condition Penalty Per 10 feet of distance –1 Spotter distracted –5
Yitzi 04-26-07, 08:08 PM	Yes, but that paragraph reads: Spot checks may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins. A penalty applies on such checks, depending on the distance between the two individuals or groups, and an additional penalty may apply if the character making the Spot check is distracted (not concentrating on being observant). Condition Penalty Per 10 feet of distance –1 Spotter distracted –5 implying these penalties are specifically for that case. So does it apply in battle too or not?
hogarth 04-26-07, 08:11 PM	implying these penalties are specifically for that case. So does it apply in battle too or not? We argued about it before and decided that the penalty applies in battle, too.
NiQil 04-26-07, 11:45 PM	New FAQ is up....some things that we have talked about are clarified: Can you use a metamagic feat when creating items? Yes; calculate the magic item’s price using the new spell level (as adjusted by the metamagic feat). A wand of maximized cure light wounds, for example, would cost 21,000 gp (spell level 4 times caster level 7 times 750 gp). You couldn’t make a wand of maximized cure moderate wounds, because that’s a 5th-level spell, which is beyond the spell level limit of a wand. If you’re not using the spell’s level to calculate the price, remember to estimate the price using the improved potency of the effect for comparison (rather than using the non-metamagic version of the spell). Can a magic staff hold only one spell? Yes. Even though all the staffs presented in the Dungeon Master’s Guide contain multiple spells, the rules don’t expressly ban you from crafting a staff with only one spell (and what’s more, it’s not significantly unbalancing to do so). If my character casts a silent and stilled spell of any sort that affects the target’s behavior (charm person, suggestion, and so on) and the target makes the saving throw, would they know they were being cast upon and who cast the spell? What would a typical NPC reaction be to this scenario? The target of a spell or effect is always aware that he’s rolled a saving throw, though the caster of the spell isn’t revealed. There’s no guideline for how the average NPC would react to a spell being cast upon him, but the Sage certainly believes that he’d be concerned about it. Being the target of a spell can’t be an everyday occurrence for normal folks (even in the world of D&D); one imagines that it’s a little like seeing the red dot of a laser sight appear on your sleeve before disappearing. The nature of the effect might influence the target’s reaction, but this is firmly in the camp of DM determination. Some DMs inform the target of a spell of its effect as part of asking for the save, while others keep such information secret. (It’s almost impossible to keep it entirely secret from a player, since the player has to know what kind of save he’s making.) Personally, the Sage recommends using as much transparency as you feel comfortable, particularly if characters have the ability to adjust their save result on the fly (such as with action points). It hardly seems cricket to drain away a paranoid player’s action points with bane spells just because he’s worried that one of those Will saves might be for dominate person. Most everything else that is new is for non-core material.
templer10 04-27-07, 08:40 AM	question about psi crystals - i see in the courtroom thread that theycan get feats- i remmber something in a courtroom thread about it changing or something and just want to make sure - do they or dont they get feats?
hogarth 04-27-07, 08:45 AM	question about psi crystals - i see in the courtroom thread that they get crystal same as master- i remmber something in a courtroom thread about it changing or something and just want to make sure - do they or dont they get feats? According to CoCo house rules, they don't get feats (other than Alertness).
templer10 04-27-07, 08:53 AM	According to CoCo house rules, they don't get feats (other than Alertness). that's not what is said in the courtroom ruling about them...
hogarth 04-27-07, 08:55 AM	that's not what is said in the courtroom ruling about them... To be more specific -- after the Iron Man competition is over, that will be the rule. (That's why it's not in the Courtroom rulings yet.) If you want to give feats to your psicrystal you might be able to argue it, but you'll have to abide by the new ruling in a few weeks anyways.
templer10 04-27-07, 09:02 AM	another question about psi crystal in relation to that- can they get to -10 HP like familiars or do they get smashed at 0 like consturcts? since you cant really have it both ways either they are same as familiars or not.
TheMagister 04-27-07, 09:05 AM	Oh, they're destroyed at 0 hp, like any construct. Being a familiar doesn't change the base creature's type (that I'm aware), it just changes the way it interacts with the DnD rules (can be the subject of spells that affect its master even if it would normally not be a legal target for those spells, etc.). I'm probably wrong, but I don't think that I am... TM
Vathelokai 04-27-07, 09:28 AM	another question about psi crystal in relation to that- can they get to -10 HP like familiars or do they get smashed at 0 like consturcts? since you cant really have it both ways either they are same as familiars or not. Wasn't following the conversation, but I'd like to point out that an homunculous (improved familar) will smash at 0 hp as well, being a construct and all. It's all about creature type.
Zevox 04-27-07, 01:52 PM	Well, my two latest creations are up. Anybody interested in looking them over for errors/giving comments/suggetsions? Kathren Durrol is my first attempt in long time at a straight spellcaster (ignoring the never-played Mystic Theurge Mindrel). Obviously, she takes some tips from my one successful straight manifester, Istima (namely, "don't ignore your physical ability scores" and "mounted casting rocks"). Regrettably, she won't be able to take Mounted Combat due to having her feat selection very full, but she will nab Leadership (too appropriate for a noble like her to pass up) at level 6. Final plan for her is Domain Abjurer 15/Archmage 5 (hence the spell focus feat despite her not using many enchantments at this level - getting prepared for that PrC already). Riley Durrol is, obviously, going to be a Slayer, but shes going to be unusual as Slayers go. She'll focus more on her Ranger talents than on her psion ones. Most of her feats will be geared towards the type of psionic archery Hood is famous for, though I don't know if she'll have enough to get psicrystal affinity/containment. Final plan is Ranger 12/Nomad 2/Slayer 6. One of these two will be activating soon (as soon as I have the credits) and joining LOY - I'm leaning towards Kathren right now, just because I've not played a straight wizard before but have played plenty of psionic gishes - but I'll eventually play both. Zevox
TelinArtho 04-27-07, 02:20 PM	Kathren looks solid to me (not that I'm the best with straight wizards... Darrgon (between his original and current incarnation) has a combined record of 1 win and 6 losses...). You might want to mention that the domain spells are at +1 CL though - since domain wizard is not something that is used often.
waywreth 04-27-07, 02:26 PM	Regarding Kathren Durrol - Don't forget that scrolls of sleep and color spray aren't that useful since they have such a low DC. Shocking grasp - which a great damage dealer, will usually just get your familiar killed trying to deliver it. Tossing 1 rank in each knowledge skill helps when you get stuck against a monster. Any information is better than none, and you'll have a high int bonus to benefit from it.
Erithmu 04-27-07, 02:27 PM	Well, my two latest creations are up. Anybody interested in looking them over for errors/giving comments/suggetsions? Kathren Durrol is my first attempt in long time at a straight spellcaster (ignoring the never-played Mystic Theurge Mindrel). Obviously, she takes some tips from my one successful straight manifester, Istima (namely, "don't ignore your physical ability scores" and "mounted casting rocks"). Regrettably, she won't be able to take Mounted Combat due to having her feat selection very full, but she will nab Leadership (too appropriate for a noble like her to pass up) at level 6. Final plan for her is Domain Abjurer 15/Archmage 5 (hence the spell focus feat despite her not using many enchantments at this level - getting prepared for that PrC already). Riley Durrol is, obviously, going to be a Slayer, but shes going to be unusual as Slayers go. She'll focus more on her Ranger talents than on her psion ones. Most of her feats will be geared towards the type of psionic archery Hood is famous for, though I don't know if she'll have enough to get psicrystal affinity/containment. Final plan is Ranger 12/Nomad 2/Slayer 6. One of these two will be activating soon (as soon as I have the credits) and joining LOY - I'm leaning towards Kathren right now, just because I've not played a straight wizard before but have played plenty of psionic gishes - but I'll eventually play both. ZevoxKathren: Just a thought would be to drop 3 levels of abj for human paragon, human paragon gives you adaptive learning, which could be nice to pick up for a skill (ex: diplomacy) that you are going to want to be taking full ranks in. Otherwise I'll be interested to see how she turns out, having recently built my own Abjurer. Riley: I like. Should be interesting, It will be interesting to see the joy of ego whip. I'm wondering if you considered the option of HW6 rather than 6 levels of Rng for D.Door on a recharge, could be very good if you are getting a large number of surprise rounds + Ambush and Scout packages (buff buff, D.Door to the right start square and unload.)
Sunwolf 04-27-07, 02:36 PM	@Zevox For Katheren: You do know that the scrolls of sleep and color spray only have a DC of 11? Not sure how cost effective they are. You might want to pick up scrolls like obscuring mist ( blocks sight and gives you time to buff), CL3 MM scroll (when you need that extra damage real quick), CL3 grease (to help protect vs grapples, or as a disarm), glitterdust is really nice too if you have the cash. Mounts from the mount spell are not war-trained so you will need to use your ride skill to control them if you opponent manages to get close. Consider spending 2 points cross class for the tumble skill -- gives you a chance to avoid AOOs due to movement. For Riley: List automatic packages she qualifies for -- looks like you have all or nearly all of the skills necessary for one (have to go look).
hogarth 04-27-07, 02:41 PM	For Katheren: You do know that the scrolls of sleep and color spray only have a DC of 11? Not sure how cost effective they are. A horse only has a +2 Will save, and a level 3 barbarian is often worse than that! They'll be useless later on, but you can sell a self-scribed scroll for face value so it's not a big loss.
TheMagister 04-27-07, 02:49 PM	I second the vote for at least 2 cc ranks in Tumble, mostly to benefit your attacking familiar. TM
Zevox 04-27-07, 03:36 PM	Wow - a lot more comments than I usually get. Re: Domain spells CL - Those are at CL+1? Really? I didn't notice that! I was just taking it because theres few spells in the domain I wouldn't prepare anyway and it only required me to give up 1 school. Cool - I'll add the note about it. Re: Scrolls - Yes, I'm aware the scrolls are low DC. My reasoning is as Hogarth says - at levels 3 and 4, most foes have low will saves anyway, so they're going to get some use at least, and if they don't its no loss to me since they're self-scribed. The problem with most of the scrolls that were suggested is money - she simply doesn't have enough to scribe all those things into her spell book right away. Certainly later on she will (in fact, I'm considering making her cohort a wizard as well, so the two could prepare spells from each other's books with an easy spellcraft check), but for now she needs to make more money first. In any event, her mount should help with getting time to buff/avoiding grapples at low levels at least. Re: Human Paragon - Tempting. Ride, Diplomacy, and the like as class skills would be nice, the bonus feat could be used on Mounted Combat, and the ability boost to int would make up for her starting with a relatively low one. But the loss of a caster level is very, very annoying, especially since I wanted to get her Archmage levels as soon as possible (starting level 13). I'll have to consider it - if she does take it, it probably won't be until after level 5, so she can have her cohort as backup to make up for the lost caster level. Plus of course I'll need to build up even more credits for it. Re: Shocking Grasp - I'm aware of the risk when having the familiar deliver it (I've played a couple of caster gishes before - see Mithos and Eraca). I figure he can do it when the opponent is an archer or caster, and Kathren herself could use her mount to do it as a hit-n-run vs meleers (or better still, just get the meleers with a sleep or color spray). Re: Skills - She has a lot of issues with these. Starting with just int 17 gets her less to work with than many wizards, and since I want her to have Court Connections (again, only makes sense for a noblewoman), plus she needs maxed out Know (Arcana) and Spellcraft by level 12 to take Archmage, plus she wants ride skills, concentration, and a money-maker, things are very tight in this regard. Next level she'll plop a point into Know (Local) so she can alter self for natural AC, but otherwise I think she'll rely on her cohort for knoweldge skills (like I said, really considering making him a wizard too). Human Paragon might give her the chance to take ranks in tumble, but for now she'll have to go without that (playing keep away with her horse should be good enough to not need it anyway). Re: Riley - Horizon Walker eh? Well, that'd lose Use Rope as a class skill, plus some of the spellcasting, Improved Precise Shot bonus feat, and one favored enemy. Not to mention evasion and Woodland Stride. A bit of a steep cost, but well worth considering. DD in round 1, after a few prebuff rounds from scout, could really hurt, so thats a very nice idea. And of course it fits her character concept quite well too. Zevox
Abyssal Stalker 04-27-07, 04:13 PM	I will be offline for a couple of days.
Hirumajoe 04-27-07, 05:49 PM	Re: Riley - Horizon Walker eh? Well, that'd lose Use Rope as a class skill, plus some of the spellcasting, Improved Precise Shot bonus feat, and one favored enemy. Not to mention evasion and Woodland Stride. A bit of a steep cost, but well worth considering. DD in round 1, after a few prebuff rounds from scout, could really hurt, so thats a very nice idea. And of course it fits her character concept quite well too. Zevox Technically, an ECL 7 manifester could take Dimension door as one of their two 4th level powers. If all you care about is the first round DD, its not that big a hit in pp. I presume you're going to be prioritizing Slayer over ranger? (i.e. Ranger 3/Psion 2/Slayer 6 then the rest Ranger). In which case you don't have to delay your manifester levels for Dimension door 1d4, or only get dimension door once you're ECL 20.
Zevox 04-27-07, 05:56 PM	Technically, an ECL 7 manifester could take Dimension door as one of their two 4th level powers. If all you care about is the first round DD, its not that big a hit in pp. I presume you're going to be prioritizing Slayer over ranger? (i.e. Ranger 3/Psion 2/Slayer 6 then the rest Ranger). In which case you don't have to delay your manifester levels for Dimension door 1d4, or only get dimension door once you're ECL 20. The reverse, actually. She'll take her second Nomad level at 4 in order to get the two further level 1 buff powers (and increase the duration to 2 minutes), but after that the plan was to go straight Planar Ranger to 6 to grab the animal companion, spellcasting (cheap cheap resist energy!), second favored enemy, and to top it all off Manyshot. After that I had figured on grabbing Slayer levels, but perhaps Horizon Walker would be a better idea to grab that D Door every 1d4 rounds ASAP (not to mention all the miscellaneous skill boosts and bonus to attack/damage vs various foes along the way). I actually hadn't planned to grab D Door as a psionic power at all - her two fourth level powers would be Freedom of Movement and Fly. Zevox
MindWandererB 04-28-07, 01:05 AM	New FAQ is up....some things that we have talked about are clarified: Most everything else that is new is for non-core material. All these items were already posted in Ask Wizards, BTW.
McJarvis 04-28-07, 10:58 AM	All these items were already posted in Ask Wizards, BTW. They've been upgraded on the totem pole of authority. :)
Vathelokai 04-28-07, 01:39 PM	Wanted to make sure I have a rule right. teleportation effects like dimention door do not require Line of Effect or Line of Sight to the destination, correct?
hogarth 04-28-07, 01:45 PM	Wanted to make sure I have a rule right. teleportation effects like dimention door do not require Line of Effect or Line of Sight to the destination, correct? That's right, unless it says otherwise in the description. For instance, the powers Dimension Slide and Retrieve require line of sight.
Rauul 04-28-07, 04:41 PM	Self made powerstones can hold 3 powers correct? when you buy powerstones they can hold 3 powers (and you pay for each one) correct?
Vathelokai 04-28-07, 04:54 PM	Run into a conundrum with shapeshifting again (go figure)... Your type and subtype (if applicable) change to match the new form. ... You also gain all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but do not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural, psionic, or spell-like abilities.What happens when the creatures new type has supernatural abilities? For example you polymorph into a hound archon. The archon subtype has the (su) ability to greater teleport (self only) at will. Do you keep this, since it's part of the 'type' and not part of the 'creature'? Another example, the fire subtype makes you immune to fire. If you polymorph into a red dragon, do you become immune to fire? The subtype descriptions says that all things with that subtype are immune, but does not specify if it's supernatural or simply a function of the type.
Vathelokai 04-28-07, 04:58 PM	Self made powerstones can hold 3 powers correct? when you buy powerstones they can hold 3 powers (and you pay for each one) correct? It's 6. If you look in the powerstone section, there is a table showing how many powers you find on a stone (in a random treasure). The highest is d6, so we go with 6. The same rule applies to scrolls.
Rauul 04-28-07, 05:11 PM	It's 6. If you look in the powerstone section, there is a table showing how many powers you find on a stone (in a random treasure). The highest is d6, so we go with 6. The same rule applies to scrolls. Cool thanks... And Cognizance Crystal: Max Power Point Storage of 1 act Simular to pearls of power (can only activate powers that use 1 powerpoints and can't augment them) correct?
hogarth 04-28-07, 05:13 PM	Run into a conundrum with shapeshifting again (go figure)... What happens when the creatures new type has supernatural abilities? For example you polymorph into a hound archon. The archon subtype has the (su) ability to greater teleport (self only) at will. Do you keep this, since it's part of the 'type' and not part of the 'creature'? Another example, the fire subtype makes you immune to fire. If you polymorph into a red dragon, do you become immune to fire? The subtype descriptions says that all things with that subtype are immune, but does not specify if it's supernatural or simply a function of the type. This is addressed in the "Rules of the Game" article about Polymorph (Pt. 3). It specifically lists what you do and do not get for each type/subtype: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a The answer to your questions above (according to the article): "no" for the supernatural abilities, and "yes" to resistances immunities due to subtype.
Sjiggie 04-28-07, 06:26 PM	Cool thanks... And Cognizance Crystal: Max Power Point Storage of 1 act Simular to pearls of power (can only activate powers that use 1 powerpoints and can't augment them) correct? Correct you can use the powerpoints from a 1pp cognizance crystal to manifest a 1st lvl power but you can't augement it with your own or other cognizance crystal pp.
Rauul 04-28-07, 07:11 PM	Correct you can use the powerpoints from a 1pp cognizance crystal to manifest a 1st lvl power but you can't augement it with your own or other cognizance crystal pp. Thanks.. now that i have retired Rauul.. i may make me a Psion.. :)
templer10 04-28-07, 07:18 PM	Thanks.. now that i have retired Rauul.. i may make me a Psion.. :) something to consider - from what i seen- Cognizene crystals are a lot less cost effective the Pears of power since you cant augment powers manifested with low level cognizene crystals and at least in the early levels you will get much more out of a +2 to the primary manifesting class ability score (in pps per fight) then you would get out of a 1 pps or even 3 pps cognizne crystal. now a 5 pps crystal is starting to get decent but those arent cheap.
Ferox_the_Ancient 04-29-07, 04:02 AM	what books are allowed for char creation...im new
TheMagister 04-29-07, 07:03 AM	Howdy, Ferox! Good to see a new face around here! Okay, the first thing you need to do is poke around the Characters of Gladius thread. Not only does it have a hyperlinked list of all currently active and previously active characters for you to look at, but it contains links to all the places a new player needs to go (the quickstart guide, a default character sheet, and other neat things). If I were you (and I knew what I know now), I'd randomly open up probably three each of gladiators in the ECL3, ECL 5, ECL 7, and ECL 9 leagues just so you can see what a character sheet looks like when it grows from a new character to a polished and efficient killing machine. Some experienced people here to pay attention to: MindwandererB, Zevox, McJarvis, SauroGrenom, Caterane (on hiatus), Vathelokai, myself, Macbrea, and Niqil. All of these make good character sheets (Niqil's are very pretty). After that, do yourself a favor and ask questions about your concept in the Tavern! We won't steal your ideas, and between all of us have some pretty impressive (it's kinda sad, actually) rules-lawyer knowledge to put at your fingertips. Some things to pay special attention to: the Rules of Gladius thread -- most specifically, I'd read all of the "Introduction" information, and the first four of the "The Rules of Gladius:" sections. After that, read "Miscellaneous: Meta Rules" for some Core Coliseum house rules. That should give you more than enough information to make a character, and should leave you pretty confident in doing so. Finally (to answer your original question): the PHB, the MMI, the DMG, the XPH, and most everything on the SRD are eligible for use here (we only incorporate some of the Unearthed Arcana stuff here, and it's still kinda in "beta"). Good luck, and have fun! TM
Zevox 04-29-07, 10:02 AM	Finally (to answer your original question): the PHB, the MMI, the DMG, the XPH, and most everything on the SRD are eligible for use here (we only incorporate some of the Unearthed Arcana stuff here, and it's still kinda in "beta"). Slight correction here: the only parts of the XPH allowed here are those in the SRD. There are several races (psionic Giths, Thri-Kreen, etc) and I think one feat that are in there which aren't allowed here due to not being in the SRD (and thus not being open-source). Additional note 1: The Unearthed Arcana stuff we do incorporate around here costs 10 credits (which you can read up on in the rules thread - basically you earn them by contributing to the community around here) each to use on any given character, so you should probably just ignore that for your first character. Additional note 2: When TM says that anything in the 3 core books is allowed, he means it. This includes the Red Wizard PrC, which is in the DMG but not the SRD, and its related feat Tattoo Focus. (I mention this because many new players miss it.) And to reiterate TM's opening words: welcome! Its always nice to see a new face around here. Hope you find the place enjoyable :) . Zevox
Ferox_the_Ancient 04-29-07, 12:59 PM	as for my concept i was originally thinking of going the abjurer 3, master specialist (abjurer) 10, iniate of the sevenfold veil...but then looking at the books allowed i cant do that....hmmmm cant use my gnome illusionist build cause both domains i took are FR only...hmmmm.....cant play a scout or either of the 2 prcs that go with my scout build...well hell...hmmmm.....its been so long since i built a core char...soul knife it is it seems....
SauroGrenom 04-29-07, 02:01 PM	as for my concept i was originally thinking of going the abjurer 3, master specialist (abjurer) 10, iniate of the sevenfold veil...but then looking at the books allowed i cant do that....hmmmm cant use my gnome illusionist build cause both domains i took are FR only...hmmmm.....cant play a scout or either of the 2 prcs that go with my scout build...well hell...hmmmm.....its been so long since i built a core char...soul knife it is it seems.... *wince* Soulknife? Ouch. For a first character, soulknife probably isn't the best choice. There are several players who've tried soulknife builds, and they are rather mediocre or worse. In a place like CoCo where you can buy almost any items you want, equipment is your friend. Classes, races or subtypes that decrease your ability to use equipment are missing out on some of the greatest advantages of this environment. Soulknife and monk characters have to struggle with that. Also incorporeal and non-humanoid races have similar difficulties.
Vathelokai 04-29-07, 02:23 PM	How many of us had great renown first characters, Sauro? Denshi was my first character, a complete failure arena-wise, but fun for me. Ferox: if you're going soulknife, take a good look at Cyra. Probably one of the strongest soulknives to go through here, and the only one to get to lv 10. I highly recommend looking over the past fights to see what worked and what didn't.
TheMagister 04-29-07, 02:25 PM	Ferox: if you're going soulknife, take a good look at Cyra. Probably one of the strongest soulknives to go through here, and the only one to get to lv 10. I highly recommend looking over the past fights to see what worked and what didn't. Man, Cyra was a pain to fight against. I don't think I ever HAD to, but at higher ECLs she gave gladiators conniption fits.
Vathelokai 04-29-07, 02:27 PM	Yeah, sniping from the ceiling with multi-soulknives, slippers of spiderclib, and a ring of invis... bad news.
Ferox_the_Ancient 04-29-07, 02:36 PM	Yeah, sniping from the ceiling with multi-soulknives, slippers of spiderclib, and a ring of invis... bad news. yeah...thats about what i had in mind...plus if i can ever get a hold of it the gloves from MIC that make your mindblade better...like the adamantine ones or the ones that add enhancments
Guildmaster (WAR) 04-29-07, 02:39 PM	Magic Item Compendium isn't in use here. {sigh} I tried to get those Steadfast Boots approved (I didn't even know they existed at the time) and even THOSE got turned down. It was a bummer. TheMagister (Guildmaster of the Warfare Alliance)
Ferox_the_Ancient 04-29-07, 03:16 PM	poo...well...poo...so...hmmm....ill run a gnome illusionist...or something else racially sterotypical...lol maybe damnit...no completes either...im used to having so much more to work with...lol...hmmmm...ill have to go so much simpler than im used to...maybe just a straight rogue...
NiQil 04-29-07, 03:20 PM	poo...well...poo...so...hmmm....ill run a gnome illusionist...or something else racially sterotypical...lol maybe damnit...no completes either...im used to having so much more to work with...lol...hmmmm...ill have to go so much simpler than im used to...maybe just a straight rogue... Like our title says...we are the Core Coliseum. We allow the Core books and the SRD, and that's about it. We occasionally use non-core sources to iron out rules issues if they carry pertinant material, but we usually try and avoid that if we can. Unearthed Arcana material is still in it's test phases (see the Rules thread for more info) On a lighter note...kinda boggles the mind what this many PC's and players can do with just core material, yes? Take a step away from your Complete Races of Tomes characters and put your thinking cap on.
TheMagister 04-29-07, 03:24 PM	It can get pretty creative around here.
Ferox_the_Ancient 04-29-07, 03:29 PM	yeah...its just takeing me a little bit to adjust to not having everything...ive got to reboot as it were...hmmm...im thinking of doing a rogue2/fighter1 something or other...
McJarvis 04-29-07, 03:41 PM	It can get pretty creative around here. Yet there are so many characters that are so similar. Not that including non-core stuff would fix this, though...
Ferox_the_Ancient 04-29-07, 04:05 PM	hmmm...how do you think a pally/sorc/dragon disc would fare?
templer10 04-29-07, 04:13 PM	hmmm...how do you think a pally/sorc/dragon disc would fare? i never really saw the point of a DD- it doesnt give anything that good really- medium BaB with nonexsisting bonus to spell (yay MORE level 1 spells). If you want something gish like- battle sorcerers are exelent here (but take credits) and there's something to be said for good old fasioned EK. also- psionic gishes are very nice also if that's you thing.
Ferox_the_Ancient 04-29-07, 04:15 PM	was thinking of dragon disc for the physical bonuses and probably a couple extra second lvl spells...so i can use things like bulls strength more often...mainly for the buffs you know?
hogarth 04-29-07, 04:27 PM	Yet there are so many characters that are so similar. Of course, 99% of those similar characters are NiQil's... :P
NiQil 04-29-07, 04:28 PM	was thinking of dragon disc for the physical bonuses and probably a couple extra second lvl spells...so i can use things like bulls strength more often...mainly for the buffs you know? Dragon Disciple's can be very good depending on the focus of your build. If you are trying to make a gish, then I would steer clear, as they leave a lot to be desired on the spellcasting side. But if you are trying to build a melee machine that uses a few arcane things hear and there, then DD can be very fun. Sorc and Bard are the easy ways in...you can also get in by first qualifying for Assassin, if you wanna get creative. If you do a Cha-based build focused on melee, then I would suggest minimizing your arcane class levels as much as possible. A common way to do this is to go Bard/Paladin/DD/??, with the extra class often being fighter for the bonus feats or psychic warrior for the bonus feats and access to psionic stuff...as an example, Bard 2/Paladin 3/Psychic Warrior 3/Fighter 2/DD 10 gives you access to arcane bard stuff, divine paladin stuff, psionic psywar stuff and bonus fighter feats, in addition to the DD bonuses. But that's just one of probably dozens of combinations you could use.
templer10 04-29-07, 04:29 PM	Of course, 99% of those similar characters are NiQil's... :P BTW - niqil- if you dont mind me asking, what's the point with all the carbon copies of the same more or less chars?
NiQil 04-29-07, 04:33 PM	BTW - niqil- if you dont mind me asking, what's the point with all the carbon copies of the same more or less chars? Various reasons....most commonly it is if I run across an idea I want to playtest...I will crank out a couple of PC's with possible slight variances just to see how something works for a few fights in the arena. Other times I will start characters the same but have different progressions planned for them. A good example of this was The Four Horsemen....they all progressed virtually identical for the time that they were active, but were all progressing towards different prestige classes.
McJarvis 04-29-07, 05:31 PM	NiQil is the provider of CoCo NPC gladiators.
NiQil 04-29-07, 05:46 PM	NiQil is the provider of CoCo NPC gladiators. That might be true.....ask TaggIIV's character Tagg....3 of his 4 fights have been against my creations....
Vathelokai 04-29-07, 06:12 PM	hmmm...how do you think a pally/sorc/dragon disc would fare? Could work. Maybe 4sorc/2pal/+dragon What I think would be interesting is a soulknife5/assassin5/+dd
MindWandererB 04-30-07, 02:20 AM	i never really saw the point of a DD- it doesnt give anything that good really- medium BaB with nonexsisting bonus to spell (yay MORE level 1 spells). If you want something gish like- battle sorcerers are exelent here (but take credits) and there's something to be said for good old fasioned EK. also- psionic gishes are very nice also if that's you thing. I'm playing around with a Dragon Disciple... or will be, with Gakhnalak's next level. I plan to put his many uses of True Strike per day to use with Power Attack and eventually a lesser rod or two of Metamagic Quicken. How many of us had great renown first characters, Sauro? Denshi was my first character, a complete failure arena-wise, but fun for me.In my first week here, I debuted Bolrak Soulbare, a duergar monk, and Aerryl. Bolrak turned out to be a dismal failure, but Aerryl was indeed Great Renown from, I believe, ECLs 6-8 or thereabouts. She lost it after successive losses to Sliver Firebug (pixie sorcerer, perfect record) and an Effreeti (no chance in hell), and never got it back.
Rauul 04-30-07, 03:22 AM	I'm playing around with a Dragon Disciple... or will be, with Gakhnalak's next level. I plan to put his many uses of True Strike per day to use with Power Attack and eventually a lesser rod or two of Metamagic Quicken. In my first week here, I debuted Bolrak Soulbare, a duergar monk, and Aerryl. Bolrak turned out to be a dismal failure, but Aerryl was indeed Great Renown from, I believe, ECLs 6-8 or thereabouts. She lost it after successive losses to Sliver Firebug (pixie sorcerer, perfect record) and an Effreeti (no chance in hell), and never got it back. Mitza will be happy that someone remembered her Little Sliver...
Erithmu 04-30-07, 09:35 AM	@All: Weekend kicked my rear end and this week doesn't look to be shaping up any better. I am going to be out of town Fri-Sun, and busy all week. I am going to try to get my quests moving on time (Telin, Hogarth, Yitzi) but they might be a little delayed and we will be playing catch up. I will be doing lots of quest related stuff on Wednesday and Thursday, as for now I have a paper to write (due Wednesday morning)
Sindorin 04-30-07, 10:08 AM	How many of us had great renown first characters, Sauro? Though I was a complete noob when I first joined here as well as the fact that we didn't HAVE power ratings back then, I note that my first character Tair Malek went 6-0 (or more?) at creation, which would probably qualify as Great Reknown, even though it went downhill for him from there. That was back when a win meant that youi levelled, too, which would affect whatever his rating would have been. Oh well... Va'ria is still one point away from GR...
hogarth 04-30-07, 10:28 AM	@All: Weekend kicked my rear end and this week doesn't look to be shaping up any better. I am going to be out of town Fri-Sun, and busy all week. I am going to try to get my quests moving on time (Telin, Hogarth, Yitzi) but they might be a little delayed and we will be playing catch up. I, for one, am not in a hurry to have Treetall Oakleg get paralyzed and fall to his death. mumble mumble damn dragons mumble mumble :weep:
TelinArtho 04-30-07, 12:58 PM	@All: Weekend kicked my rear end and this week doesn't look to be shaping up any better. I am going to be out of town Fri-Sun, and busy all week. I am going to try to get my quests moving on time (Telin, Hogarth, Yitzi) but they might be a little delayed and we will be playing catch up. I will be doing lots of quest related stuff on Wednesday and Thursday, as for now I have a paper to write (due Wednesday morning) No problem for me. Valkin is a pretty easy character to run: Charge if I can. If I can't - get into melee. If I can't - engage at range as best as I can. If I still can't - respectfully withdraw...
hogarth 04-30-07, 01:58 PM	What's the lowest ECL way to get telepathy? I was thinking about mounting an udoroot on a wagon, but it'd require telepathy in order to gain it as a Diplomacy ally. Note that a Helm of Telepathy would not work because plants are immune to mind-affecting abilities. Is there anything lower than a succubus or bearded devil (ECL 12)? (P.S. Isn't it useful that the udoroot has Thought Shield at will even though it's completely immune to mind-affecting powers? :uh-huh:)
Zevox 04-30-07, 02:42 PM	Query: How would the Planar Binding line of spells work around here? Theres a number of checks that need to be rolled for it to work, and no preset info for how much to offer called creatures/how to adjudicate the potential bonuses the charisma check. You can add a diagram to the magic circle to get rid of the SR issue, but theres still the will save, charisma check, and opposed charisma check to deal with. Would you simply have the pitlord roll these before the battle? Something else? How would we work the opposed charisma check/rewards offered to the creature? I ask because I'm looking at it as a far-future option for my abjurer Kathren (she could leave slots of the appropriate level open and use the spell if her leadership cohort is killed in her first or second fights). We've worked out how Planar Ally spells work around here, so how about its arcane counterpart? Zevox
TelinArtho 04-30-07, 02:47 PM	First off, from my own experience I will tell you that LPA is turning out to be a not-so useful spell when compared to the relative power/ease of use of diplomacy allies. LPB and its other spells will likely have the same mechanic as LPA except you don't necessarily need to restrict the alignment to within two steps of your own. However, it would still require the diplomacy checks that we have in LPA to adjust the friendliness. However, without the cost-efficiency of the thaumaturgist - I think you'll find it is extremely expensive. Haven't looked too much into the spell itself so I might be incorrect on a few things here.
Zevox 04-30-07, 02:51 PM	I don't think the diplomacy checks we use for Planar Ally spells should be used with Planar Binding - it specifically gives opposed charisma checks as the way to decide whether a creature accepts your offer (with you getting between +0 and +6 bonus to the check depending on the nature of the offer). It doesn't have to like the offer at all - remember that the Planar Binding spells trap the creature they call, unlike Planar Ally which just calls it and lets you bargain with it. Zevox
TelinArtho 04-30-07, 03:02 PM	Okay - I've looked over the spell and I think there's two ways to handle it: 1. Use the spell as is and restrict it with the 3FC and very specific conditions on what merits what bonus to the Cha check. In this case, the pitlord of the first fight of the cycle would need to roll the needed checks before the fight is run to determine whether the ally is available for the cycle. You would need to strike Magic Circle against Evil (or appropriate alignment) and Lesser Planar Binding off of your alloted spells - meaning you use 7 SLs of your allotment for week 1. All this for an ally you never guarantee you gain. For the cha check - I would suggest the CR of the potential ally squared times 100 per +1 bonus. So a CR3 ally would cost an additional 3*3*100 = 900*bonus to get a bonus. +6 on the check would be 5400gp (just a suggestion obviously - someplace to start) 2. Write up specific CoCo rules for the LPB and series spells to be handled in a "reasonable" way. This would probably involve a more generic list of costs associated with it, but it would be custom just for the spell and for the potential results. I had to lobby for a few weeks to get the LPA rules ironed out and resolved and I still feel they are vastly inferior to the diplomacy allies for a number of reasons. Kraegin uses them only because I didn't want to use diplomacy allies with him. After he is unfrozen though - he will probably gain a diplomacy ally until he gains his planar ally.
Zevox 04-30-07, 03:14 PM	I had to lobby for a few weeks to get the LPA rules ironed out and resolved and I still feel they are vastly inferior to the diplomacy allies for a number of reasons. Pah, thats because anything short of Leadership is inferior to Diplomacy allies around here. They're cheap, use CR instead of ECL in all cases, can be advanced/customized/made elite for fairly little gp and some credits, lack the weaknesses most other ally-obtaining methods have (e.g. animate dead allies are vulnerable to many undead-controlling spells and cleric/paladin/blackguard turn/rebuke undead abilities)... yeah, except leadership, none of our other methods of obtaining allies measure up to them. 1. Use the spell as is and restrict it with the 3FC and very specific conditions on what merits what bonus to the Cha check. In this case, the pitlord of the first fight of the cycle would need to roll the needed checks before the fight is run to determine whether the ally is available for the cycle. You would need to strike Magic Circle against Evil (or appropriate alignment) and Lesser Planar Binding off of your alloted spells - meaning you use 7 SLs of your allotment for week 1. All this for an ally you never guarantee you gain. For the cha check - I would suggest the CR of the potential ally squared times 100 per +1 bonus. So a CR3 ally would cost an additional 3*3*100 = 900*bonus to get a bonus. +6 on the check would be 5400gp (just a suggestion obviously - someplace to start) Sounds reasonable enough to me. Perhaps a little much on the gp cost though. Take out the squaring issue perhaps - so a +6 vs a CR 3 ally costs instead 300*6 = 1,800 gp? Hm, still sounds expensive for a 1-time thing, especially with an ally of that low a CR, but then again that is the max bonus you can get. One thing though - this shouldn't need to be done in the first fight of the cycle if the player doesn't want to. Like I said, my own instance would be that Kathren would leave a 3rd and 5th/6th/8th level slot open to potential fill with a PB spell and Magic Circle and use in fight 2/3 if her cohort died. Zevox
sonofzeal 04-30-07, 03:55 PM	Well, I've suddenly lost internet access; current guess is that the cable leading in to my new room was damaged at some point and no longer carries a proper signal. Point is that I will very definitelly not be able to work on the FFA (or any other pitlording) in the immediate future. It can be left as-is, or someone else can take over, but either way I won't be online with any regularity for a while. Sorry.
Ferox_the_Ancient 04-30-07, 09:52 PM	hey guys...im having a bit of trouble going through and making the my char...some of the things on the char sheet dont show up on my comp for some reason...anybody have aim or something to help me? pm me if you can help
Zevox 04-30-07, 10:05 PM	Well, I've suddenly lost internet access; current guess is that the cable leading in to my new room was damaged at some point and no longer carries a proper signal. Point is that I will very definitelly not be able to work on the FFA (or any other pitlording) in the immediate future. It can be left as-is, or someone else can take over, but either way I won't be online with any regularity for a while. Sorry. Well, thats bad. Obviously the fight can't be left as-is - too many errors that could easily change it. Nor should it be totally reworked, since so much work has already gone into it, and El Rapido has already continued his career under the presumption of taking 4th in the match. So, any chance we can get a pitlord who can take it over from where it is? Copy the present state, look over the complaints, and fix things from there? I'd offer, but one of my characters is in the fight. Zevox
McJarvis 05-01-07, 08:05 AM	hey guys...im having a bit of trouble going through and making the my char...some of the things on the char sheet dont show up on my comp for some reason...anybody have aim or something to help me? pm me if you can help I'm always free to help people on AIM.(when I'm online, of course) My S/N is MicJarv . I'll add you to my list tonight.
Rauul 05-01-07, 05:12 PM	Question... is Elixir of Hiding considered an expendable or a 1 shot use wonderous item?
Sjiggie 05-01-07, 05:17 PM	1 shot use wondrous item only potions, scrolls, tattoos and powerstones are expandables
Rauul 05-01-07, 05:24 PM	1 shot use wondrous item only potions, scrolls, tattoos and powerstones are expandables ok thanks and anyone know the break down of prices for buying 1-2 bane arrows instead of the large lots (i believe it's 40 gold per (2000 gp cost for a lot of 50) but i am not sure...
hogarth 05-01-07, 05:32 PM	ok thanks and anyone know the break down of prices for buying 1-2 bane arrows instead of the large lots (i believe it's 40 gold per (2000 gp cost for a lot of 50) but i am not sure... The arrows have to be +1 whatever-bane arrows, i.e. +2 arrow equivalents. So that would be around 8000/50 = ~160 gp apiece. Note that this costs credits, of course.
Rauul 05-01-07, 05:45 PM	The arrows have to be +1 whatever-bane arrows, i.e. +2 arrow equivalents. So that would be around 8000/50 = ~160 gp apiece. Note that this costs credits, of course. So pretty much unless a low level charater wants to use gather Info to buy arrows they have to buy 8 +1's or 1 +2 per 2 weeks... Good to know the backdoor got slammed shut on low level charaters trying to do anything usful with the skill.. Thanks
TelinArtho 05-01-07, 05:48 PM	1 shot use wondrous item only potions, scrolls, tattoos and powerstones are expandables Note that Elixirs are one-charge wondrous items and are limited to your ECL. If you wand an Elixir of Hiding at say ECL3 - you'll have to pay credits for it.
TelinArtho 05-01-07, 05:52 PM	So pretty much unless a low level charater wants to use gather Info to buy arrows they have to buy 8 +1's or 1 +2 per 2 weeks... Good to know the backdoor got slammed shut on low level charaters trying to do anything usful with the skill.. Thanks I wouldn't say that it has been shut off. One arrow is within the gather information range of an ECL3 or 4 character pretty easily (GI +10 is enough at ECL3, GI +9 at ECL4. So that's 3 arrows per week or even use a full activity and gather 2 for a couple of weeks. If you don't have that high of a gather information skill, you can gain them for free-credit-wise with a full actvity pretty easily. Also - the credit cost for special arrows is not exactly huge. 1 credit if you purchase in groups of 5; 2 credits if you purchase in groups of 1.
hogarth 05-01-07, 06:01 PM	So pretty much unless a low level charater wants to use gather Info to buy arrows they have to buy 8 +1's or 1 +2 per 2 weeks... Good to know the backdoor got slammed shut on low level charaters Some things you can buy using Gather Info at low levels are single-use magic items of spells that cannot be made into potions. For instance, Reginald Molehusband has a single-use item of Shield in case some wiseacre tries to fire Magic Missiles at him. There are lots of decent low-level spells and powers to do that with (e.g. Entangle, Matter Agitation, Faerie Fire, Silent Image, Grease, Mount, etc.).
Yitzi 05-01-07, 07:05 PM	Question: The SRD gives a scythe as an example of something that cannot be made of mithral due to not being primarily metal. Does that mean it is primarily wood (and therefore can be made of darkwood)? Or is it considered too even, and therefore cannot be made lighter by any special material? Also, is the cost by weight for darkwood/mithral based on the reduced weight or that for one made of normal metal/wood? Also, what's the rule about sneak attacks with spells? Is it only for those that can have a critical hit? Only if they can have a critical hit and damage? (I would guess this one)All? None? Only those that do damage, regardless of whether a critical hit is possible? Some other criterion?
Rauul 05-01-07, 07:54 PM	Note that Elixirs are one-charge wondrous items and are limited to your ECL. If you wand an Elixir of Hiding at say ECL3 - you'll have to pay credits for it. So Elixirs of hiding are considered expendables or not (or are they limited to 1 per cl so ECL 3 can have 3 4 can have 4 ect..) I am confused as to what your saying Telin... do they fall under the expendables cap or not?
hogarth 05-01-07, 08:06 PM	So Elixirs of hiding are considered expendables or not (or are they limited to 1 per cl so ECL 3 can have 3 4 can have 4 ect..) I am confused as to what your saying Telin... do they fall under the expendables cap or not? There's a separate house rule on single-use non-"expendable" items -- they can't have a CL above your ECL. I think one of the items that was causing trouble was the Feather Token - Whip.
TheMagister 05-01-07, 08:17 PM	Well, thats bad. Obviously the fight can't be left as-is - too many errors that could easily change it. Nor should it be totally reworked, since so much work has already gone into it, and El Rapido has already continued his career under the presumption of taking 4th in the match. So, any chance we can get a pitlord who can take it over from where it is? Copy the present state, look over the complaints, and fix things from there? I'd offer, but one of my characters is in the fight. Zevox Request seconded. Pretty please somebody? TM
Yitzi 05-01-07, 08:22 PM	About my question above...?
McJarvis 05-01-07, 08:24 PM	Also, what's the rule about sneak attacks with spells? Is it only for those that can have a critical hit? Only if they can have a critical hit and damage? (I would guess this one)All? None? Only those that do damage, regardless of whether a critical hit is possible? Some other criterion? Spells with attack rolls(like ray attacks) can be used as a sneak attack. There is a pretty good rules of the game series on sneak attacks that covers all of this(though I forget where the url is.
Rauul 05-01-07, 08:26 PM	There's a separate house rule on single-use non-"expendable" items -- they can't have a CL above your ECL. I think one of the items that was causing trouble was the Feather Token - Whip. And where is this "House Rule" since i have yet to see it.. especually in getting started...
hogarth 05-01-07, 08:26 PM	Question: The SRD gives a scythe as an example of something that cannot be made of mithral due to not being primarily metal. Does that mean it is primarily wood (and therefore can be made of darkwood)? Or is it considered too even, and therefore cannot be made lighter by any special material? Also, is the cost by weight for darkwood/mithral based on the reduced weight or that for one made of normal metal/wood? I would say that it can't be made lighter with mithral or darkwood. The extra cost for mithral/darkwood is based on the original weight. Also, what's the rule about sneak attacks with spells? Is it only for those that can have a critical hit? Only if they can have a critical hit and damage? (I would guess this one)All? None? Only those that do damage, regardless of whether a critical hit is possible? Some other criterion? It only works on spells for which you have to make an attack roll. According to Complete Arcane, if you do a sneak attack with a non-hp-damage spell like Ray of Enfeeblement, it does negative energy sneak attack damage. I don't know if we use that rule, though.
TelinArtho 05-01-07, 08:29 PM	And where is this "House Rule" since i have yet to see it.. especually in getting started... Look under the Battles posts in the rules thread for the cap on expendables. There are three statements associated with it.
McJarvis 05-01-07, 08:30 PM	According to Complete Arcane, if you do a sneak attack with a non-hp-damage spell like Ray of Enfeeblement, it does negative energy sneak attack damage. I don't know if we use that rule, though. This is outlined exactly in this manner in the RotG articles on sneak attack. Negative Energy SA it is.
hogarth 05-01-07, 08:33 PM	And where is this "House Rule" since i have yet to see it.. especually in getting started... Here's the rule from the Rules of Gladius: "There is an overall cap on Expendables and Charged Items (Wands, Staffs, etc) in that they can only have a CL or ML of up to your ECL." It has been clarified that any item with a limited number of uses is a Charged Item as referred to above.
Rauul 05-01-07, 08:42 PM	Here's the rule from the Rules of Gladius: "There is an overall cap on Expendables and Charged Items (Wands, Staffs, etc) in that they can only have a CL or ML of up to your ECL." It has been clarified that any item with a limited number of uses is a Charged Item as referred to above. So basicly an Elixor of hiding is a 1 charge wonderous item.. and this is different from a 1/day 50 charge wonderous item how? Cause once you say it has charges and limiting it due to charges well that changes the whole argument but anyways... No ECL 3-4 will have any elixors that are acually useful in the arena... nice to know (They are CL 5 for hiding and sneaking and 250 gp)
McJarvis 05-01-07, 08:47 PM	I'd say 250 gp for a 1 shot boost is pretty worthless at ECL 3->4, and after that hiding is useless.
hogarth 05-01-07, 08:48 PM	So basicly an Elixor of hiding is a 1 charge wonderous item.. and this is different from a 1/day 50 charge wonderous item how? There would be no difference between the two items in terms of the caster level cap. I would disagree with McJarvis in calling hiding "useless" after level 4; I've used potions of invisibility on numerous occasions to good effect. I agree that a build that's totally focused on being able to hide consistently will encounter some difficulties, though.
TelinArtho 05-01-07, 09:06 PM	So basicly an Elixor of hiding is a 1 charge wonderous item.. and this is different from a 1/day 50 charge wonderous item how? Cause once you say it has charges and limiting it due to charges well that changes the whole argument but anyways... No ECL 3-4 will have any elixors that are acually useful in the arena... nice to know (They are CL 5 for hiding and sneaking and 250 gp) While I appreciate your efforts to find every item that has little or no use in the CoCo - I frankly don't understand why you are bothering. If you want something to boost your hide, its not like you don't have options (tattoos/powerstones of Chameleon, cloak of elvenkind, armor of shadow). Having to wait until ECL5 is not so big a deal - especially since the elixirs are pretty expensive to begin with. If you want to petition for a major change - as has been mentioned by MWB before - it is going to wait until after we have more information about whether Cat is coming back. Even if he isn't - you'll have to lobby for it - and I frankly don't know how much, if any, support you'll get for it.
Rauul 05-01-07, 09:06 PM	Cloak of Elven kind is +5 hide in shadows (2500 gp) to add another +1 to hide in shadows is 1100 gp? 6 squaredx100= 3600-2500=1100 (since you already payed 2500 for the +5)
Rauul 05-01-07, 09:25 PM	While I appreciate your efforts to find every item that has little or no use in the CoCo - I frankly don't understand why you are bothering. If you want something to boost your hide, its not like you don't have options (tattoos/powerstones of Chameleon, cloak of elvenkind, armor of shadow). Having to wait until ECL5 is not so big a deal - especially since the elixirs are pretty expensive to begin with. If you want to petition for a major change - as has been mentioned by MWB before - it is going to wait until after we have more information about whether Cat is coming back. Even if he isn't - you'll have to lobby for it - and I frankly don't know how much, if any, support you'll get for it. Well to be honest i am NOT trying to find every item thats not useful i am acually trying to find items that are useful to a Non psionic charater in coco.. and to be honest i am seeing more or less that unless your psionic your very limited.. basicly due to needing credits to make wands and potions vs the lack of needing credits to make Powerstones and Dorjes (since they don't have charts and can be made with any) So I presented Items that are simular to what has been approved by Cat..and well thats been changed now.. So all I really want is to make a viable charater with the rules that have been set up... thats hard to do when every time I turn around the rules are changed.. So you tell me... Whats core and whats not core.. I happen to have read DMG, and PH and MM several dozen times.. never saw a limit on Wonderous items other than the limit of a players gold and availability set by the DM due to location.. Never had a DM tell me I have to vaccum the floor before he will let me make a wand of spectral hand.. and look at the psion and say Oh you can make whatever you want you don't need to check with me... As far as people Supporting me... I really don't care who Supports me and who dosen't..
NiQil 05-01-07, 09:27 PM	@ Rauul: The rule everyone is bantering around can be found in the Court Decisions (one of these days people will remember those are there....): Q: Are there limits on what expendable items can be purchased? A: Yes. You may only own an amount of expendables (which are defined as oils/potions, tattoos, scrolls and powerstones) up to your ECL 2 x 50 gp. All single use expendable items, including (but not limited to) scrolls, potions, powerstones, tattoos and wondrous items, are limited to a caster/power level equal to your ECL. Scrolls and powerstones are further limited to your CL/ML + 2. Charged items, including (but not limited to) wands, dorjes, staffs, psicrowns and wondrous items are also limited to being purchased up to your ECL in caster/power level. Items with both charges or limited uses as well as a function that is continuous or does not elapse after a certain number of uses may still be purchased at any ECL (an example of this would be a Gem of Brightness, which has both effects that are charge-dependant, and effects that are not).
McJarvis 05-01-07, 09:28 PM	Well to be honest i am NOT trying to find every item thats not useful i am acually trying to find items that are useful to a Non psionic charater in coco.. and to be honest i am seeing more or less that unless your psionic your very limited.. It would seem that unless you use psionics _or_ magic, you are very limited. I don't think you're convincing anyone of anything different. Do you propose we start creating new mundane weapons so that a non-magic/psionic character could exist in CoCo? :P
TelinArtho 05-01-07, 09:30 PM	Yup and a tattoo of Chameleon is 100gp. A powerstone of Chameleon is 25gp. A cloak of Elvenkind is a +5 bonus for any number of fights; the elixir is a +10 bonus for 1 fight. They are all different methods of gaining a decent hide bonus. I don't see why you are up in arms about the most expensive one (over the long run). And let's not forget that they are completely available to you from ECL5 on...
MindWandererB 05-01-07, 10:17 PM	This is outlined exactly in this manner in the RotG articles on sneak attack. Negative Energy SA it is. This is not quite accurate. Any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage can be used in a sneak attack.... Spells that inflict energy drains or ability damage deal extra negative energy damage in a sneak attack, not extra negative levels or ability damage. For example, a 10th-level rogue who makes a successful sneak attack with an enervation spell deals 1d4 negative levels plus an extra 5d6 points of negative energy damage. Ray of Enfeeblement does not qualify--it doesn't deal damage, not even ability damage; it grants an ability score penalty. So you can't sneak attack with it.
Yitzi 05-01-07, 11:20 PM	From the SRD spell list (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#firstLevelSorce rerWizardSpells): Ray of Enfeeblement: Ray deals 1d6 +1 per two levels Str damage. The description describes it as a penalty, but the short description in the spell list calls it damage. So does it count? Another question: Can you use ventriloquism to throw your voice while casting?
Vathelokai 05-02-07, 12:21 AM	From the SRD spell list (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#firstLevelSorce rerWizardSpells): The description describes it as a penalty, but the short description in the spell list calls it damage. So does it count? Another question: Can you use ventriloquism to throw your voice while casting? The text in the spell description is considered the primary source. Yes, You can use ventriloquism to throw your voice when casting. I've used it with greater invis with wonderous results.
TheMagister 05-02-07, 12:41 AM	But the sound of the original casting still comes from your space (which is annoying).
Vathelokai 05-02-07, 12:57 AM	But the sound of the original casting still comes from your space (which is annoying). Since when? The casting of ventriliquism does, but you can move right after that. Then all other castings come from somewhere else... or am I misunderstanding your comment? You can make your voice (or any sound that you can normally make vocally) seem to issue from someplace else. You can speak in any language you know. With respect to such voices and sounds, anyone who hears the sound and rolls a successful save recognizes it as illusory (but still hears it). Edited to clarify
TheMagister 05-02-07, 01:10 AM	I'm referring to the ol' invisibility + quickened ventriloquism trick. You knew what I meant. :) TM
Rauul 05-02-07, 03:50 AM	Since i am sort of lost on the whole Wonderous items cap things.. How many ML 3 pearls of brain lock can a ML 3 psion have who can craft them?
hogarth 05-02-07, 07:14 AM	Since i am sort of lost on the whole Wonderous items cap things.. How many ML 3 pearls of brain lock can a ML 3 psion have who can craft them? As many as he can afford. There's a limit is on the maximum ML, but not on how many charged Wondrous/Universal Items he can own.
Salrantol 05-02-07, 07:27 AM	On a side street of Gladius lies a small building. Once, it was home to a family of four--the father was a baker, the mother a housewife, and they had two sons and a daughter. Once, they lived in peace. Now, the doors are barred three times over and heavy furniture lies behind the bars. Now, they dwell in the basement in caskets of wood, waiting to be raised as undead creatures. And now, the furniture and bars are being removed, and a sinister force returns to the arenas of Gladius. Bareth`kul's work here is not yet complete, and Enoch the Prophet fights again.
Sunwolf 05-02-07, 09:44 AM	On a side street of Gladius lies a small building. Once, it was home to a family of four--the father was a baker, the mother a housewife, and they had two sons and a daughter. Once, they lived in peace. Now, the doors are barred three times over and heavy furniture lies behind the bars. Now, they dwell in the basement in caskets of wood, waiting to be raised as undead creatures. And now, the furniture and bars are being removed, and a sinister force returns to the arenas of Gladius. Bareth`kul's work here is not yet complete, and Enoch the Prophet fights again. Welcome back Salrantol!
McJarvis 05-02-07, 10:19 AM	As many as he can afford. There's a limit is on the maximum ML, but not on how many charged Wondrous/Universal Items he can own. Is there a credit cost at all for custom psionic universal items? Still have to get them approved, of course....?
hogarth 05-02-07, 10:36 AM	Is there a credit cost at all for custom psionic universal items? Still have to get them approved, of course....? Of course!! Why wouldn't there be a credit cost for custom universal items? The only reason there isn't for tattoos and dorjes is because there isn't an existing table listing valid tattoos/dorjes like there is for potions/wands.
Macbrea 05-02-07, 10:58 AM	Odd question: Is it possible to Metapsionic a crawling tattoo? Tattoo I am looking at is: Crawling Tattoo of Extended Time Hop [ML 7] Best I can figure the cost of it is: 25gp x 3 x 7 x (2 crawling) = 1,050gp If it's possible does it cost credits? This is assuming that: Crawling Tattoo of Time Hop [ML 5] is 25gp x 3 x 5 x (2 crawling) = 750gp
McJarvis 05-02-07, 11:12 AM	Of course!! Why wouldn't there be a credit cost for custom universal items? My bad-> I was assuming there was a rational reason for Raull always complaining about psionic credit costs all the time ;)
McJarvis 05-02-07, 11:30 AM	Need input on an item idea I'm working on . This obsidian ring allows it's owner to use the psionic power control light at will(ML1) to invoke to following effects in 12 10-ft cubes so long as the ring wearer concentrates on the effect. The weilder can choose between: Dazzle any creature with light sensitivity. Create an area of light shadows(+1 Hide). Create an area of moderate shadows(+2 Hide, 20% concealment against normal vision). Create an area of heavy shadows(+3 Hide, 20% concealment vs normal & normal low-light vision). Create an area of total darkness darkness(+4 Hide, total concealment vs anything with less than darkvision) This ring overpowers any mundane lighting(the sun, torches, etc), but can be dispelled by any spell or power with the light or darkness descriptor. Crafting Requirements: Control Light, Craft Universal Item, ML 1 Price calculation: 1,800(command thought) x 1(Manifester level) x 1 (power level) Thoughts? Naturally, it's for a new rogue-ish character(though never fear, I'm not planning on submarining this one...as you can tell from the duration.) concept of mine. Oh, and of course I'll reserve the option to put 50 charges on it for half price :)
TelinArtho 05-02-07, 11:45 AM	Continuous would make it 2000gp *2 (for 1min/level) rather than the 1800 you are putting there. If it were a command thought, it would take a standard action to activate each time you wanted it and the concentration could last a maximum of 1 minute. Dazzle is not a part of the effects that control light has. If you want that feature - you'd have to add a dazzle-type spell or power to its effects (which would increase the price significantly. The hide bonus is similarly out in left field - and should adjust the price some. Also it should be noted at that you only control one effect at a time (so 12-10ft cubes could not be split up to be 4 10ft cubes of dazzling light, and the rest total darkness).
hogarth 05-02-07, 11:48 AM	Re: the dazzling -- I think he's just suggesting that increasing he illumination by 100% would be "bright sunlight" for purposes of Light Sensitivity. That doesn't seem unreasonable. Re: the bonus to Hide -- it's right in the power description (+1 per 25% of illumination decrease). It's the concealment part that he's making up rules for. Continuous would make it 2000gp *2 (for 1min/level) rather than the 1800 you are putting there. If it were a command thought, it would take a standard action to activate each time you wanted it and the concentration could last a maximum of 1 minute. Dazzle is not a part of the effects that control light has. If you want that feature - you'd have to add a dazzle-type spell or power to its effects (which would increase the price significantly. The hide bonus is similarly out in left field - and should adjust the price some. Also it should be noted at that you only control one effect at a time (so 12-10ft cubes could not be split up to be 4 10ft cubes of dazzling light, and the rest total darkness).
McJarvis 05-02-07, 11:50 AM	edit- hogarth jumped the gun on me :) RE: Continuous: I don't want it on *all* the time, I just want to be able to turn it on at-will. Thus I thought "command word/thought" was more appropriate. (as opposed to some bracers of armor: on which mage armor is always active to some degree) Admittedly, though, this section of the pricing rules has always somewhat confused me. edit-> I think I'm right here, though. Hogarth's silent image ring seems to be based on (1,800 x 1 x 1) * (3/5) * (1/2), and it has a duration of concentration as well. RE: Hogarth's comment on concealment: Concealment is a natural result of lower light, is it not? At the very least, the 100% reduction in light feature should provide total conceilment vs any creature without darkvision or better. (the power description even states that creatures are hindered per their own vision capabilities) I'll admit I made up the stats for when conceilment comes around on my own-> which is why I asked for help. I'm not really sure where the rules are on that.
TelinArtho 05-02-07, 12:13 PM	Okay in light of reading the power more closely, I would be fine with the hide and concealment granted at each point that was originally proposed. I am still opposed to allowing the Dazzle ability. On the pricing, I admit I'm a little unsure on which to apply here myself. Maintaining concentration is a standard action, and so would using it at a whim. I am more comfortable associating the price at 4000gp, because this is much more effective than a standard Cloak of Elvenkind (and before I get badgered for this - +4 Hide and total concealment at will is far greater than +5 hide. Since the item could be used by a class-ally (familiars, psicrystals), the concentration really isn't a factor limiting the item).
hogarth 05-02-07, 12:25 PM	RE: Hogarth's comment on concealment: Concealment is a natural result of lower light, is it not? At the very least, the 100% reduction in light feature should provide total conceilment vs any creature without darkvision or better. (the power description even states that creatures are hindered per their own vision capabilities) I'll admit I made up the stats for when conceilment comes around on my own-> which is why I asked for help. I'm not really sure where the rules are on that. I didn't say your rule was unreasonable, I said it was "made up". I agree that there should be some point between 100% and 0% illumination that gives concealment, but I'm not sure what it should be. As far as Telin's comment that it should be more expensive because your buddy can use it, can you show me where in the DMG table it lists an ad hoc penalty like that? Should a Bag of Tricks or a Horn of Fog cost twice as much just because even a flunky can use them?
TelinArtho 05-02-07, 12:34 PM	No - what I'm saying is that the concentration element of the item is not a limiting factor on the item because of the ability for an ally to use it. Given that, I have a hard time justifying that it should cost less than a cloak of Elvenkind on the fact that it is better than the cloak. Remember, when determining prices for custom items, we should look at existing items for a sanity check in order to preserve balance. If this item is priced as such, why would anyone go for a cloak of elvenkind (in terms of a purely min-maxing question)?
hogarth 05-02-07, 12:39 PM	Remember, when determining prices for custom items, we should look at existing items for a sanity check in order to preserve balance. If this item is priced as such, why would anyone go for a cloak of elvenkind (in terms of a purely min-maxing question)? Because the ring takes someone's standard action each round to activate? I don't understand why you think that is not a limitation. Just because it's not a limitation for SOME characters (who happen to have a psicrystal that's hanging around doing nothing) doesn't mean it's not a limitation. That makes about as much sense as saying "Why would anyone buy a potion of Cure Light Wounds when you can buy a scroll instead?" -- not everyone can use a scroll!
Yitzi 05-02-07, 12:45 PM	Also, I think that using control light might mean those within the darkened area can't see either...a bad idea if you're planning to use it to sneak attack (unless you've got darkvision)
Quoriil 05-02-07, 01:00 PM	*A hole is space opens up and a dumpy little halfling falls out of it.* Introducing my first gladiator, a halfling :eek: soulknife :eek: named T'kiir. Could I get some feedback on him? (beyond the fact that soulknives are rotten at everything :P) Thanks so much. I hope this is as fun as it looks!
Yitzi 05-02-07, 01:06 PM	A few questions about spellbooks: 1. Is it possible to have more than 1 spellbook (if you need the extra pages and don't want to pay for a blessed book) 2. What is required to obtain new spells for your spellbook?
TelinArtho 05-02-07, 01:07 PM	Well hogarth, you and I have a difference of opinion about how the item should be priced. The item doesn't have a direct relation to any item in the SRD, however it has effects that are similar to a few of them. 1. Cloak of Elvenkind (+5 hide bonus continuous for 2500gp vs +4 hide bonus and 50% concealment continuous investment of 1 standard action) 2. Horn of Fog (Concealment benefits from Fog on standard action investment each round at 10ft square each round, dissipates in wind for 2000gp vs Concealment benefits from darkness and Hide bonus for 12-10ft squares in any given round, negated by those with darkvision) From what I can gather - this item is better than both of these items individually - so I am suggesting a price that is nominally higher in order to account for this. Equating Potions and Scrolls is invalid since Scrolls can only be used by a fairly limited subset of persons and have more demanding activation schemes.
TelinArtho 05-02-07, 01:09 PM	A few questions about spellbooks: 1. Is it possible to have more than 1 spellbook (if you need the extra pages and don't want to pay for a blessed book) 2. What is required to obtain new spells for your spellbook? You have to pay for your first and subsequent spellbooks. A blank spellbook with 100 pages is 15gp and is listed in the equipment section of the SRD. Obtaining new spells has two costs: The cost to access the spell and the cost of scribing materials. If you own a blessed book, the cost of scribing materials is 0gp. The cost to access a spell is variable and you have two sources: Scrolls - 25gp x CL x SL NPC services - 50gp x SL As can be seen from the above equation, buying 1st level spells is cheapest by using scrolls; after that - using NPC services is cheaper. Scribing materials are a flat 100gp x SL.
TelinArtho 05-02-07, 01:12 PM	*A hole is space opens up and a dumpy little halfling falls out of it.* Introducing my first gladiator, a halfling :eek: soulknife :eek: named T'kiir. Could I get some feedback on him? (beyond the fact that soulknives are rotten at everything :P) Thanks so much. I hope this is as fun as it looks! The only thing I saw at first glance is an error on the crossbow. You have range and price as if it was a heavy crossbow, but damage for a light crossbow. Since you label it as a heavy - I assume you just made an error on the damage - it should be 1d8.
Zevox 05-02-07, 01:13 PM	A few questions about spellbooks: 1. Is it possible to have more than 1 spellbook (if you need the extra pages and don't want to pay for a blessed book) 2. What is required to obtain new spells for your spellbook? 1. Sure. Theres nothing against it. 2. You need to either buy a scroll of the spell you wish to copy or purchase the use of an NPC's spellbook which has the spell (the latter costs 50 gp x the spell's level). Which means its most cost-effective to buy the scroll for 1st level spells and purchase the service for 2nd-level+. Beyond that, all you require is sufficient spellcraft to make the checks with take 20 (easy - its DC 15+SL, so with 1 rank in spellcraft and the average wizard's int you auto-succeed) and pay the price of the materials used in scribing the spell into the book (100 gp per spell level). Note that you also get 2 free spells added to your book each time you level up, plus you start with all cantrips (minus prohibited schools) and 3+int 1st level spells at level 1. Zevox
Quoriil 05-02-07, 01:15 PM	The only thing I saw at first glance is an error on the crossbow. You have range and price as if it was a heavy crossbow, but damage for a light crossbow. Since you label it as a heavy - I assume you just made an error on the damage - it should be 1d8. Thanks!
McJarvis 05-02-07, 01:15 PM	If the item was merely made continuous(and not requiring concentration beyond activating it), I would agree with your pricing Telin. However, it does require concentration-> and some consideration should be given to this. You can't *just* assume someone will have a psicrystal or a familiar or helper in general...otherwise every charged wondrous item would need to be priced higher for having the "quicken" ability added too, since a familiar or psicrystal could obviously activate it for "Free". I'll draw up the character tonight and request it to see what Sauro thinks(unless he's willing to speak up now....?)
Hirumajoe 05-02-07, 01:28 PM	*A hole is space opens up and a dumpy little halfling falls out of it.* Introducing my first gladiator, a halfling :eek: soulknife :eek: named T'kiir. Could I get some feedback on him? (beyond the fact that soulknives are rotten at everything :P) Thanks so much. I hope this is as fun as it looks! Personal tattoos cost twice as much, so the Force screen tattoo should be 100gp, not 50gp. Also, watch your expendables. All expendables on the sheet, including those at home, must fall under the cap. You're ok for now (9*50 = 450) even with the double cost Force Screen (50+100+100+50+50 = 350). But they should be included in your expendables total. Also, be aware of our current clarification of attacking and listen checks. Its a DC 0 listen check to hear someone making an attack. Since you look like you're going the throwing and hiding route. Otherwise, looks like a fun "little" character. Have fun with him. :) Edit: Oh and your Small Mithril Chain shirt should only weight 5lbs. In the SRD, a normal Mithril Chain shirt weight 10lbs, so 50% of that is 5lbs.
Quoriil 05-02-07, 02:23 PM	Thanks to you as well, Hirumajoe. I would not have caught that personal tattoo cost problem! I didn't figure on tossing from close range and then hiding would work to well... I'm hoping for match ups where a sudden attack from close range followed up by a little in-your-face midget action (no offense to any small folks out there) will carry the day (to the match-up godlings out there: I'd love to meet a nearly blind and deaf wizard with a wet hacking cough and slow reflexes :) )
Vathelokai 05-02-07, 02:50 PM	Thanks to you as well, Hirumajoe. I would not have caught that personal tattoo cost problem! I didn't figure on tossing from close range and then hiding would work to well... I'm hoping for match ups where a sudden attack from close range followed up by a little in-your-face midget action (no offense to any small folks out there) will carry the day (to the match-up godlings out there: I'd love to meet a nearly blind and deaf wizard with a wet hacking cough and slow reflexes :) ) That would be Zodiac. ;)
Yitzi 05-02-07, 03:04 PM	1. Sure. Theres nothing against it. 2. You need to either buy a scroll of the spell you wish to copy or purchase the use of an NPC's spellbook which has the spell (the latter costs 50 gp x the spell's level). Which means its most cost-effective to buy the scroll for 1st level spells and purchase the service for 2nd-level+. Beyond that, all you require is sufficient spellcraft to make the checks with take 20 (easy - its DC 15+SL, so with 1 rank in spellcraft and the average wizard's int you auto-succeed) and pay the price of the materials used in scribing the spell into the book (100 gp per spell level). Note that you also get 2 free spells added to your book each time you level up, plus you start with all cantrips (minus prohibited schools) and 3+int 1st level spells at level 1. Zevox 2 questions about that: 1. Is there a credit cost for using it as an NPC service? 2. You said you can take 20 to scribe. Is that a replacement for the normal "no retry until you get at least 1 spellcraft rank" rule?
Zevox 05-02-07, 03:08 PM	2 questions about that: 1. Is there a credit cost for using it as an NPC service? 2. You said you can take 20 to scribe. Is that a replacement for the normal "no retry until you get at least 1 spellcraft rank" rule? 1. None whatsoever. Theres other NPC services available too, if you want to take a look at the advanced rules section of the Rules of Gladius - spellcasting services and animal training are the two that come to mind right away. 2. I wasn't even aware of that rule. Not sure. Mayhaps someone else knows? Zevox
TelinArtho 05-02-07, 03:10 PM	There is no credit for using the NPC service assuming it is a spell level that you can cast (which if you couldn't, there's no reason to use the NPC service). As to the second point, I believe we have been ignoring it up to this point, but it is a valid question. Unless there's a need to get it reviewed (does anyone else feel that we need to include the spellcraft checks to learn a new spell?), you can ignore it as well for now. Since it has been an oversight as far as I know - this might change in the future (but wouldn't affect wizards who didn't take into account this).
Macbrea 05-02-07, 03:17 PM	Hmm, I had been assuming on Relanex that I was taking 10 on his spellcraft checks. You are automaticly without a check to the given two spells each level. This requires no check at all. If you wish to learn spells and add them to your book after the fact you are assumed to take 10 on writing them into your book. In truth, taking 20 should be a Full Action to do such as it would take 20 days to do. Writing a single spell in your book should be a free action as it takes 1 day to do. That might need to be noted in our rules.
TelinArtho 05-02-07, 03:20 PM	The only problem with the assumption on Taking 10 or 20 in the case of learning a new spell is this: Spells Copied from Another’s Spellbook or a Scroll: A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from her specialty school. She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment. If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. She cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until she gains another rank in Spellcraft. A spell that was being copied from a scroll does not vanish from the scroll. In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level x50 gp. Since there's a penalty for failure - it shouldn't be allowed. As I said - I think this has been previously overlooked and might bear reviewing if there's interest in the matter. Note that this might make Wizards a little riskier to run since you need to dump a bunch of skill points in spellcraft or risk not gaining a spell that you want/need.
Macbrea 05-02-07, 03:23 PM	Those don't by the way count against your base two spells per level. Note the adding from anothers book or scroll statement. And not allowing wizards to take 10 will result in a needed roll that must be made by whom? And there is some of us that are set up like wizards are suppose to be: +18 SpellcraftInt [10 Ranks] +02 for evocations spells ---- +21 for take 1 = Automatic on 6lvl- :)
hogarth 05-02-07, 03:25 PM	The only problem with the assumption on Taking 10 or 20 in the case of learning a new spell is this: [snip] Since there's a penalty for failure - it shouldn't be allowed. Normally you can "take 10" on a skill check even if there's a penalty for failure. It's only "taking 20" that's forbidden.
TelinArtho 05-02-07, 03:27 PM	Normally you can "take 10" on a skill check even if there's a penalty for failure. It's only "taking 20" that's forbidden. Noted. So the characters should be forced to take 10 on the roll - which if the spellcraft bonus is lower than +5 +1/SL, its an issue. I would hope most characters don't have this issue.
Hirumajoe 05-02-07, 03:40 PM	So I've been doing a bit of reading up on Polymorph/Metamorphosis (probably since I'm planning on taking it next level with Valen) and ran across a slight snag in the 3.5 FAQ. Apparently equipment doesn't resize when you polymorph/metamorphosis (although if you could still be holding/wearing at the new size its still there). So here's the questions: 1) If I take the expanded power feat at 12th to grab Expansion, and manifest that to become Large before manifesting Metamorphosis into say a Large Troll, do I get to keep my armor on and do my weapons remain large weapons? In the case of the equipment, the power is in fact not stacking (where as the character would clearly still just be a large Troll as opposed to a Huge Troll). 2)And while we're at it, I'll ask if you expand to a Large Size, then manifest Metamorphosis, can you take on a Huge form (say a Treant?). I assume the answer is no since its kinda like stacking. (As opposed to polymorphing into a Large Troll and expanding to be a Huge Troll which is clearly stacking). 3) How do enhancement buffs (like from Animal Affinity) interact with Metamorphosis. If I am getting +4 Str from Animal Affinity, then Metamorphosis into a Str 23 Troll, do I have 23 Strength or 27? 4) How does ability damage and ability burn interact with Metamorphosis? Does ability damage track with the character across all forms, or only in the form that he took the damage/burn? Thanks ahead of time.
hogarth 05-02-07, 03:45 PM	1) I think that would be O.K. The effects would overlap for you, and only one effect would apply for your equipment. 2) I believe the intent of the CoCo rule is that it wouldn't (because of the stacking rules). 3) 27 Strength. The extra strength from polymorphing isn't an enhancement bonus, so they stack. 4) The damage sticks with you across all forms. So I've been doing a bit of reading up on Polymorph/Metamorphosis (probably since I'm planning on taking it next level with Valen) and ran across a slight snag in the 3.5 FAQ. Apparently equipment doesn't resize when you polymorph/metamorphosis (although if you could still be holding/wearing at the new size its still there). So here's the questions: 1) If I take the expanded power feat at 12th to grab Expansion, and manifest that to become Large before manifesting Metamorphosis into say a Large Troll, do I get to keep my armor on and do my weapons remain large weapons? In the case of the equipment, the power is in fact not stacking (where as the character would clearly still just be a large Troll as opposed to a Huge Troll). 2)And while we're at it, I'll ask if you expand to a Large Size, then manifest Metamorphosis, can you take on a Huge form (say a Treant?). I assume the answer is no since its kinda like stacking. (As opposed to polymorphing into a Large Troll and expanding to be a Huge Troll which is clearly stacking). 3) How do enhancement buffs (like from Animal Affinity) interact with Metamorphosis. If I am getting +4 Str from Animal Affinity, then Metamorphosis into a Str 23 Troll, do I have 23 Strength or 27? 4) How does ability damage and ability burn interact with Metamorphosis? Does ability damage track with the character across all forms, or only in the form that he took the damage/burn? Thanks ahead of time.
Erithmu 05-02-07, 03:46 PM	So I've been doing a bit of reading up on Polymorph/Metamorphosis (probably since I'm planning on taking it next level with Valen) and ran across a slight snag in the 3.5 FAQ. Apparently equipment doesn't resize when you polymorph/metamorphosis (although if you could still be holding/wearing at the new size its still there). So here's the questions: 1) If I take the expanded power feat at 12th to grab Expansion, and manifest that to become Large before manifesting Metamorphosis into say a Large Troll, do I get to keep my armor on and do my weapons remain large weapons? In the case of the equipment, the power is in fact not stacking (where as the character would clearly still just be a large Troll as opposed to a Huge Troll). 2)And while we're at it, I'll ask if you expand to a Large Size, then manifest Metamorphosis, can you take on a Huge form (say a Treant?). I assume the answer is no since its kinda like stacking. (As opposed to polymorphing into a Large Troll and expanding to be a Huge Troll which is clearly stacking). 3) How do enhancement buffs (like from Animal Affinity) interact with Metamorphosis. If I am getting +4 Str from Animal Affinity, then Metamorphosis into a Str 23 Troll, do I have 23 Strength or 27? 4) How does ability damage and ability burn interact with Metamorphosis? Does ability damage track with the character across all forms, or only in the form that he took the damage/burn? Thanks ahead of time. 1) We have a house rule that Polymorph size changes count as a size change so you can't stack them EDIT: an augmented expansion you might have to take to the courtroom to work out the details 2) Also house ruled: you have to be within one size category of your base form 3) Stacks 4) I think these carry across. (95% sure) House rules The poly rules are in the first secton.
Macbrea 05-02-07, 03:53 PM	Noted. So the characters should be forced to take 10 on the roll - which if the spellcraft bonus is lower than +5 +1/SL, its an issue. I would hope most characters don't have this issue. So.. I checked every wizard in you roster.. (heh) and there is only one incorrect. Qwogi Drellfarrow , No Spellcraft, two too many second level spells
Yitzi 05-02-07, 03:57 PM	Those don't by the way count against your base two spells per level. Note the adding from anothers book or scroll statement. And not allowing wizards to take 10 will result in a needed roll that must be made by whom? And there is some of us that are set up like wizards are suppose to be: +18 SpellcraftInt [10 Ranks] +02 for evocations spells ---- +21 for take 1 = Automatic on 6lvl- :) Yeah, at level 7, for your specialty school, with +8 nonranks bonus (I doubt you have 26 INT, so you probably took a feat or 2). And if you want to multiclass... Also, am I correct that arcane casters have no alignment restrictions on which spells they can cast?
Macbrea 05-02-07, 04:03 PM	+18 SpellcraftInt [10 Ranks][8 Wizard +2 Red Wizard +2 knowledge Arcana] Int 22 +6 And after checking everyone... my spellcraft is low.
Yitzi 05-02-07, 04:18 PM	I've made a new character, any comments?
hogarth 05-02-07, 04:22 PM	I've made a new character, any comments? Setting up sneak attacks is tough work.
McJarvis 05-02-07, 04:23 PM	I've made a new character, any comments? Well, I might as well get it out of the way(since stick-in-the-butts always seem to move in & try to kill people's "groove") A halfling? and rogue levels? You should know that that will be the suxx0rZ! You play l33t druid now la! Very cool start to an arcane trickster build :) I hope the struggles you face will be rewarded with super cool sneak attack rays of doom at higher levels :D
Zevox 05-02-07, 04:41 PM	Also, am I correct that arcane casters have no alignment restrictions on which spells they can cast? Of course not. Why would they? Zevox
TelinArtho 05-02-07, 04:50 PM	Not necessarily true... a paladin/sorcerer would not be able to cast protection from good nor would he be able to summon evil creatures with a SMI spell.
Zevox 05-02-07, 04:55 PM	Not necessarily true... a paladin/sorcerer would not be able to cast protection from good nor would he be able to summon evil creatures with a SMI spell. Aye, but thats because of his Paladin Code of Conduct prohibiting evil acts across the board, not anything to do with his arcane class. Hell, if he were a Cleric/Wizard instead, the alignment restriction to casting would only apply to his Cleric spells, not his arcane ones. Zevox
TelinArtho 05-02-07, 04:59 PM	Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells: A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions. Seems to me that an evil cleric can't cast good spells at all - not just divine ones.
Zevox 05-02-07, 05:01 PM	Seems to me that an evil cleric can't cast good spells at all - not just divine ones. If we presume that rules about what you can do with spells like that apply across the board, we run into kooky things like Vath used to point out - things like spontaneously converting wizard spells to SNA if you're a Druid or Cure/Inflict spells if you're a Cleric. Seems to me the simplest (and most logical) way is to assume those things apply only to the class they're attached to. Zevox
Hirumajoe 05-02-07, 05:06 PM	McJarvis, or anyone in the know: Should I be trying to put together LOY's accounting and stuff for the week or has McJarvis taken care of that already? Thanks.
Zevox 05-02-07, 05:08 PM	McJarvis, or anyone in the know: Should I be trying to put together LOY's accounting and stuff for the week or has McJarvis taken care of that already? Thanks. He hasn't, and you should. I've already posted the Guild actions for the week, so you're late already (which means, as MWB told me hes been doing, you lose your GAPs/CAPs, but can turn in your accounting still to get that). Zevox
Hirumajoe 05-02-07, 05:10 PM	He hasn't, and you should. I've already posted the Guild actions for the week, so you're late already (which means, as MWB told me hes been doing, you lose your GAPs/CAPs, but can turn in your accounting still to get that). Zevox Ok, need to go pickup kid, but I'll try to get that done after in the next two hours. So no Gaps/Caps? I'm going to have to have a stern talking to with the guildmaster...
MindWandererB 05-02-07, 05:19 PM	And FYI to Zevox and all guildmasters: if a backup guildmaster ends up doing the work for a week, let Pitlords know so I can give the guildmaster credit to the one who actually did the work.
McJarvis 05-02-07, 05:46 PM	o_O. This is quite the change in policy...in the past it has merely been CAPs that have been taken away from the guilds. I simply forgot about it being Wednesday and all... But whatever. It's your game: if you want to be legalistic with it, then it's no skin off my back.
MindWandererB 05-02-07, 05:49 PM	o_O. This is quite the change in policy...in the past it has merely been CAPs that have been taken away from the guilds. I simply forgot about it being Wednesday and all... But whatever. It's your game: if you want to be legalistic with it, then it's no skin off my back. He's doing what I told him to do. I've cut slack in the past because of the new system or new guildmasters, but except for Telin, you've all been doing this for a while now. Since there's been a hint about the renewal of hostilities soon (I really hope not...), we all have to be on the ball.
McJarvis 05-02-07, 05:52 PM	He's doing what I told him to do. I've cut slack in the past because of the new system or new guildmasters, but except for Telin, you've all been doing this for a while now. Since there's been a hint about the renewal of hostilities soon (I really hope not...), we all have to be on the ball. As you wish. If Hirm is willing, I'd gladly hand over the keys to LOY to him. I don't have much interest in a game with no stretch-space for time tables.
MindWandererB 05-02-07, 06:01 PM	As you wish. If Hirm is willing, I'd gladly hand over the keys to LOY to him. I don't have much interest in a game with no stretch-space for time tables. You have a week to get it done. That isn't stretch-space? You have only two days to get tactics done, and only four to run a fight, both of which are arguably more difficult that doing the guild stuff. I'm afraid I don't understand.
McJarvis 05-02-07, 06:03 PM	You have a week to get it done. That isn't stretch-space? You have only two days to get tactics done, and only four to run a fight, both of which are arguably more difficult that doing the guild stuff. I'm afraid I don't understand. You can ask TM how often I let the battlesong duet be active. Sometimes my schedule just doesn't allow me to do things for a week. Sometimes it does. Sometimes I forget about CoCo(as strange as that might sound to you) Thus, sometimes, I need stretch space.
TheMagister 05-02-07, 07:05 PM	You can ask TM how often I let the battlesong duet be active. {frustrated sigh} :waits: :pbbbtt:
McJarvis 05-02-07, 07:06 PM	You're the greatest for putting up with me, TM :-) *chants TM's name to the fans*
TheMagister 05-02-07, 07:10 PM	Yeah, yeah. Go 'way, kid. Ya bodda me.
McJarvis 05-02-07, 07:11 PM	Speaking of how great TM is...don't we need, like, two new elders?
Zevox 05-02-07, 07:13 PM	From the sounds of things, that won't be happening until/unless Cat gives the word to Paradox to give MWB the GM title officially. And it may be three - MWB got promoted, Tellish has vanished, and Sauro indicated he may not want the post anymore IIRC. Zevox
MindWandererB 05-02-07, 07:14 PM	Speaking of how great TM is...don't we need, like, two new elders? <singsong> Not 'til Ca-at says something!
Hirumajoe 05-02-07, 07:14 PM	So umm... The stern talking to was meant jokingly, really... I really don't want to take over the LOY guild. Assistant is more than enough, thank you very much. Its a game, and its not really that big of a deal. All that I think that needs to happen is that McJarvis and I touch base once a week, as both a reminder and a check to see if one of us is short on time. And I perfectly understand being too busy or forgetful some weeks. I didn't actually remember to see what was going on this week with LOY until after the Guildhall was updated. Hopefully between the two of us, someone will remember/have time and that we can cover each other's needed stretch time. And if we don't, we don't. LOY will take the consequences (which I understand perfectly from a game like this) and we'll go on.
hogarth 05-02-07, 07:18 PM	And it may be three - MWB got promoted, Tellish has vanished, and Sauro indicated he may not want the post anymore IIRC. I think Sauro clarified his position to mean that he didn't want to express his opinion on rules any longer.
Zevox 05-02-07, 07:26 PM	I think Sauro clarified his position to mean that he didn't want to express his opinion on rules any longer. ...which is kinda required for most of the duties of an Elder, ain't it? Zevox
TheMagister 05-02-07, 07:28 PM	Speaking of how great TM is...don't we need, like, two new elders? {flattered} :blush:
Hirumajoe 05-02-07, 07:31 PM	@Zevox: LOY bookkeeping sent.
Zevox 05-02-07, 07:41 PM	{flattered} :blush: Is there nobody who actually thinks they're being considered for that post? When it was last brought up and I was told I was being considered, I was surprised myself, but I had figured you'd be in the running, and now you indicate you didn't think as much... huh. Zevox
McJarvis 05-02-07, 07:47 PM	Is there nobody who actually thinks they're being considered for that post? When it was last brought up and I was told I was being considered, I was surprised myself, but I had figured you'd be in the running, and now you indicate you didn't think as much... huh. Zevox I'm pretty sure I'm not being considered.
Rauul 05-03-07, 04:35 AM	Question... can a person make a Powerstone of Share Pain at ML 1 ? (means it lasts 1 hr?)
templer10 05-03-07, 04:54 AM	Question... can a person make a Powerstone of Share Pain at ML 1 ? (means it lasts 1 hr?) minimum manifester level for a level 2 power is 3 so no.
Rauul 05-03-07, 06:40 AM	Well if anyone wants to... I would like Lady Diamond (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12285528&postcount=1115) Audited... so i don't end up in prison my first 5 weeks with this charater.. is my very first try with a full psionic class
Sjiggie 05-03-07, 06:54 AM	With a quick glance I looked over Lady Diamond and you should list its discipline (probably telepath) and your Psicrystal HP. Also your ability modifier for Int is of it should be +4 it is listed as +2. You list the base scores for Str and Dex but not for the others you should list them also. -Sjiggie
templer10 05-03-07, 07:01 AM	Well if anyone wants to... I would like Lady Diamond (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12285528&postcount=1115) Audited... so i don't end up in prison my first 5 weeks with this charater.. is my very first try with a full psionic class grtz- psionics are fun. couple stuff you got wrong- 1)the vigor powerstones which are ML2(aug)- if you crafted them yourself cost 25 gp each - 2(ml)X1(pl)X25X1/2=25. that is because you dont increase cost on powerstones until ML3. 2)i assume from power choice the psion is a telepath - it needs to be noted after the psion - as in psion (telepath) 3. the rest is suggestions and not "wrong"S take it or leave it your choise- 1) althrough psions dont have proficency in armor or shields they dont have ASF so if you can spare the cash nting beats a darkwood heavy shield and a mithral chain shirt. 2)inertial armor is a somewhat dubios choice for a known power since for 25 GP you can have it for a full battle with powerstone.
MindWandererB 05-03-07, 12:46 PM	2)inertial armor is a somewhat dubios choice for a known power since for 25 GP you can have it for a full battle with powerstone.Actually, Inertial Armor can be a great choice, because it's augmentable. At ML 9, you can have the equivalent of Bracers of Armor +8, at ML 11 you can beat the bracers, and at ML 13 you can even beat a +5 mithral chain shirt. Costs quite a few PP, but it's one of the most efficient ways to add to your AC.
TelinArtho 05-03-07, 01:02 PM	So - assuming Sir Valkin succeeds in his final week of his quest, what do I need to do for the processing of the NEG points to improve the relations with Gawane? Do I include the processing in next week's post (and does it cost a GAP?)? Is it automatically applied by Guildlords once the quest is done?
Zevox 05-03-07, 01:10 PM	So - assuming Sir Valkin succeeds in his final week of his quest, what do I need to do for the processing of the NEG points to improve the relations with Gawane? Do I include the processing in next week's post (and does it cost a GAP?)? Is it automatically applied by Guildlords once the quest is done? Just include mention of the quest's success, how many points it processed, and what for in next week's actions (as a free action or note or whatever you want to think of it as). It doesn't cost a GAP, no (thats the whole point of doing a mission to process the points). Zevox
MindWandererB 05-03-07, 01:14 PM	Mention it somewhere in your GAP post. It doesn't cost a GAP (what would be the point?). You san see how TLT reported their successful mission here.
McJarvis 05-03-07, 01:16 PM	If someone has an ally prebuffed & you move to assassinate the ally, can they just leave the ally at home & avoid the assassination?
Zevox 05-03-07, 01:20 PM	I don't see why not. Surely we shouldn't prevent someone from leaving their ally at home just because their foe has the assassinate package, and them not having the ally at all is an even better advantage for the assassin than getting a free attack on it, no? Zevox
McJarvis 05-03-07, 01:27 PM	I don't see why not. Surely we shouldn't prevent someone from leaving their ally at home just because their foe has the assassinate package, and them not having the ally at all is an even better advantage for the assassin than getting a free attack on it, no? Zevox I guess that depends. The Evil side of me wants to see peoples allies die ;) I guess it's in the assassin's favor, since people will likely prefer to leave an ally at home than risk it being killed outright on a bad roll(or being killed after being severely weakened) edit-> Especially psicrystals and familiars. Though, I see this as problematic-> what if the person leaves home an ally the assassin tries to target? surely he should be allowed to know which allies are going to be at the fight...
Yitzi 05-03-07, 01:30 PM	Question: For what noncombat use skills do you use the take 10 value (particularly in skill packages)? I know that money-making uses take 10, and knowledge uses the skill bonus only, what does everything else use (I'm particularly asking about Diplomacy for political career)
templer10 05-03-07, 01:34 PM	Question: For what noncombat use skills do you use the take 10 value (particularly in skill packages)? I know that money-making uses take 10, and knowledge uses the skill bonus only, what does everything else use (I'm particularly asking about Diplomacy for political career) for political career add the bonus only from both relevent skills.
Yitzi 05-03-07, 01:39 PM	And everything else? Burglary? Hide resources?
hogarth 05-03-07, 01:40 PM	If someone has an ally prebuffed & you move to assassinate the ally, can they just leave the ally at home & avoid the assassination? I don't think you should be able to avoid the assassination if you have the ally prebuffed. But you could leave the ally at home after the assassination attempt, I would imagine.
Macbrea 05-03-07, 01:43 PM	A prebuffed ally is considered available for attacking in the arena. Basiclly, if you have a wizard who casts prebuvvs of multiple hours but doesn't come into the arena, he should still be targetable with assassination.
Yitzi 05-03-07, 01:47 PM	Another question: The SRD on bucklers says "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round. " Does this rule about losing the AC bonus (and the line about "in any case") apply to 2-handed weapons as well? Does it also apply to using a bow?
MindWandererB 05-03-07, 01:48 PM	Another question: The SRD on bucklers says "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round. " Does this rule about losing the AC bonus (and the line about "in any case") apply to 2-handed weapons as well? Does it also apply to using a bow? It applies to 2-handed weapons, but not to bows.
Hirumajoe 05-03-07, 01:49 PM	edit-> Especially psicrystals and familiars. Though, I see this as problematic-> what if the person leaves home an ally the assassin tries to target? surely he should be allowed to know which allies are going to be at the fight... I'd like to see the rogue type build that can take out a psicrystal in a single attack. Given that its immune to sneak attack damage and crits. And has a hardness of 8. :D
MindWandererB 05-03-07, 01:50 PM	I'd like to see the rogue type build that can take out a psicrystal in a single attack. Given that its immune to sneak attack damage and crits. And has a hardness of 8. :D Adamantine weapon. It has low HP and a mediocre AC, so it's hardly impossible. If Fontag were to ever see the inside of the arena, and had that package, he'd be able to do it later on.
Yitzi 05-03-07, 01:53 PM	And another question: Do power points lost not through being spent (e.g. pyschic enervation) count toward the 1/3 limit?
TelinArtho 05-03-07, 01:55 PM	Yes. And it is one of the few ways a character can exceed his allotment of PPs or SLs.
Hirumajoe 05-03-07, 01:58 PM	Adamantine weapon. It has low HP and a mediocre AC, so it's hardly impossible. If Fontag were to ever see the inside of the arena, and had that package, he'd be able to do it later on. Ok, I admit an Adamantine weapon buys you 8 damage. And if you're more fighter-ish than rogue-ish then a two-handed weapon with power attack probably would do it. Actually, wasn't it decided that an Assassin could use its death attack (by observing for 3 rounds). Would that imply a mounted character with the spirited charge feat and sufficient skills to meet the assasssin pacakge use a charge on the ally? (x3 lance damage could indeed end alot of people...)
Zevox 05-03-07, 02:16 PM	Adamantine weapon. It has low HP and a mediocre AC, so it's hardly impossible. If Fontag were to ever see the inside of the arena, and had that package, he'd be able to do it later on. That depends on the owner, though. For instance, I doubt you'd see anyone taking out Istima's Psicrystal with an assassinate attack - even with an adamantine weapon, not many sneak-types can deal 35 damage to something immune to sneak attacks in one hit. Actually, wasn't it decided that an Assassin could use its death attack (by observing for 3 rounds). Would that imply a mounted character with the spirited charge feat and sufficient skills to meet the assasssin pacakge use a charge on the ally? (x3 lance damage could indeed end alot of people...) No, it wasn't (if you mean could an assassin use death attack on an assassinate attack), and no, he couldn't. The assassinate package gives you a single standard action against an opponent's ally, and charging is a full-round action (and very dependent on positioning, which you don't get). Zevox
Yitzi 05-03-07, 02:22 PM	At what speed do you take a -5 to hide and MS? The SRD says more than half speed, the Rules thread says more than full speed. And how do double moves go into this?
Zevox 05-03-07, 02:28 PM	At what speed do you take a -5 to hide and MS? The SRD says more than half speed, the Rules thread says more than full speed. And how do double moves go into this? If the rules thread says that, its wrong. The SRD rule is more than half speed. Which logically means you can move half your base speed (15' if your speed is 30') with a single move action and your total base speed (30' above) with a double move and not take the -5 penalty. Zevox
McJarvis 05-03-07, 02:31 PM	Ok, I admit an Adamantine weapon buys you 8 damage. And if you're more fighter-ish than rogue-ish then a two-handed weapon with power attack probably would do it. At ECL 3? PBS+Psionic Shot+1 Adamantine Arrow(60gp) might be able to do it. 1d8+str+1+2d6 is pretty hard for something with half a psion's hp to take. RE: Assassinate: Given that the assassin's death attack is more or less the namesake for the assassinate package, I think an exception should be made for it. (that is: any single pre-buffed standard action attack, death attacks allowed as an exception)
Hirumajoe 05-03-07, 02:47 PM	No, it wasn't (if you mean could an assassin use death attack on an assassinate attack), and no, he couldn't. The assassinate package gives you a single standard action against an opponent's ally, and charging is a full-round action (and very dependent on positioning, which you don't get). Zevox Ah, ok. Although you technically can charge when you only have a standard action: If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn. But yeah, then its up to positioning...
TelinArtho 05-03-07, 03:51 PM	So I am going to take the ball and run with this then. Do I need to post a reaction for this or will the guardian automatically pick it up? I would assume that since the PMG has an EL - that the opposing force would be the same EL (that makes the most sense to me anyway). Also, I just noticed an error in Gawane with regard to the Inquisition there. Cat apparently hired 40 staff for that location when it only requires 30. Just to be sure - there's no benefit nor ability to assign extra staff to a structure is there? Assuming there isn't - can I just move them into my unassigned pool or should it wait until the next week's actions? Just bringing these two items up again. (Took them out of the FotW since it has nothing to do with the fights this week...)
Yitzi 05-03-07, 04:38 PM	Question: Does the +2 to attack listed under invisibility also apply if you're hidden?
McJarvis 05-03-07, 04:49 PM	Question: Does the +2 to attack listed under invisibility also apply if you're hidden? no
MindWandererB 05-03-07, 04:54 PM	Just bringing these two items up again. (Took them out of the FotW since it has nothing to do with the fights this week...) You should post it as a reaction, yes. (That will keep Guildlords from missing it.) As for the Inquisition, looking through the records, I'm having a hard time figuring out where they all came from. I see 22 hired specifically for it when it was completed, and 12 Experts later that weren't assigned at all as far as I can tell. I'm very confused.
TelinArtho 05-03-07, 05:03 PM	Yes - I am fully aware that Cat's accounting for staff is wonky at best... he headhunted a number of them and hired some here and there... I still don't know why we had 12 unassigned when I took over... In any case, I'll just move them to unassigned with a free action next week and pay upkeep on them until I can find them a new home. For the reaction - should I specify the EL of the encounter or did you decide on how that was going to be determined?
Hirumajoe 05-03-07, 05:08 PM	@McJarvis: Noticing the prison posts, if TAG is officially retired you might want to remove him from the LOY Guild rolls... Edit: I must admit we have different manager styles. You seem to like fresh blood every few weeks where as I stick with somewhat clunky but tried and true. :)
MindWandererB 05-03-07, 06:23 PM	Yes - I am fully aware that Cat's accounting for staff is wonky at best... he headhunted a number of them and hired some here and there... I still don't know why we had 12 unassigned when I took over... In any case, I'll just move them to unassigned with a free action next week and pay upkeep on them until I can find them a new home. For the reaction - should I specify the EL of the encounter or did you decide on how that was going to be determined? The EL of the group sounds good to me. Hmm... better get cracking on those EL >10 encounter tables. I think I'll start one of those, it's been a while and I have a little bit of time. I'll take EL 16 and work my way down.
McJarvis 05-03-07, 06:29 PM	@McJarvis: Noticing the prison posts, if TAG is officially retired you might want to remove him from the LOY Guild rolls... Edit: I must admit we have different manager styles. You seem to like fresh blood every few weeks where as I stick with somewhat clunky but tried and true. :) I'm a pretty emotional kind of guy. If I'm not feeling the "groove" on a character, I usually end up leaving him inactive for a month or so until I finally decide on whether I'm going to keep him or not. The Nimbus really doesn't help matters-> I hate the mechanic from a story-writer point of view. Another matter is that if I feel a character was in an un-just fight, or rules got changed on them to the point of absurdity -> these things just snap me out of the "I'm writing a story for my character" mode and into "I'm arguing rules for something my character should be able to do..." mode. :( This is more or less how I've always played games. If something doesn't sit right with me, I just don't play. I've had many conversations with friends about how they think this is strange, but I don't understand the lack of comprehension. It makes perfect sense to me. (??)
McJarvis 05-03-07, 06:41 PM	I just realized: Assassinate doesn't say it only works against prebuffed allies. Not only does this make tons of sense, it effectively nullifies any thoughts to being able to "pull an ally out to avoid being assassinated"
Hirumajoe 05-03-07, 08:19 PM	I'm a pretty emotional kind of guy. If I'm not feeling the "groove" on a character, I usually end up leaving him inactive for a month or so until I finally decide on whether I'm going to keep him or not. The Nimbus really doesn't help matters-> I hate the mechanic from a story-writer point of view. Another matter is that if I feel a character was in an un-just fight, or rules got changed on them to the point of absurdity -> these things just snap me out of the "I'm writing a story for my character" mode and into "I'm arguing rules for something my character should be able to do..." mode. :( This is more or less how I've always played games. If something doesn't sit right with me, I just don't play. I've had many conversations with friends about how they think this is strange, but I don't understand the lack of comprehension. It makes perfect sense to me. (??) Oh I have nothing against with your managerial style. I was just kinda amused I've been around much less than you have, but have been fairly single minded with a single character, where as you have a small army of ECL 3-5's. And the way you explain does makes sense. If you're having fun with it, thats good. And they start not being fun because of having to rules lawyer or what not, no reason not to retire them.
McJarvis 05-03-07, 09:24 PM	where as you have a small army of ECL 3-5's. One of these days I'll have them all join forces and start my own thieves guild ;)
TheMagister 05-03-07, 09:31 PM	I really should try to reprise The White Hand. I think that build could really work, if I gave it a chance. Paladin of Freedom 2/Rogue X Focus on UMD and (eventually) metamagic'd scrolls to set up sneak attack situations; good saves; interesting feat choices (I really like Deadly Precision); mithral heavy armor + buckler...it has some promise. I might make him less of a dex monkey this time, and go for a higher str/int/cha build. An invisibility + silence + true-strike + charge + power attack + sneak attack thing sounds neat. I dunno. I'll have to kick it around some more. TM
Zevox 05-03-07, 09:37 PM	I was just kinda amused I've been around much less than you have, but have been fairly single minded with a single character, where as you have a small army of ECL 3-5's. Heh, you should've heard him when he first showed back up here (apparently McJarvis was around long before many of us, but took a long while off before returning). He talked about how he'd never had a character past ECL 3 so much you'd think he was bragging ;) . Heh, it seems like almost everyone around here has a different approach to their characters. It took me nearly a year to get my first ECL 10 because of how many characters I used to start all the time, and that ECL 10 was one I started at ECL 6 (Archdevil Asran). My brother, on the other hand, has started all of 4 characters since joining, and hes taken his first from ECL 3 to ECL 9 in 10 months with frequent absences and with that character often hovering just above failure and having many fights held over. Zevox
Zevox 05-03-07, 09:42 PM	I really should try to reprise The White Hand. I think that build could really work, if I gave it a chance. Paladin of Freedom 2/Rogue X Focus on UMD and (eventually) metamagic'd scrolls to set up sneak attack situations; good saves; interesting feat choices (I really like Deadly Precision); mithral heavy armor + buckler...it has some promise. I might make him less of a dex monkey this time, and go for a higher str/int/cha build. An invisibility + silence + true-strike + charge + power attack + sneak attack thing sounds neat. I dunno. I'll have to kick it around some more. TM Invisibility is probably not the best thing to rely on for sneak attacks. Most everyone gets a counter to it at some point - the ability to cast see invisibility, invisibility purge, or true seeing; a hand of glory; a custom see invis item; etc. Also remember to get him some scrolls of Faerie Fire this time around, eh? ;) Zevox
TheMagister 05-03-07, 09:48 PM	{shakes head} I think I'll NEVER forget that experience again. EVER. {classic memory montage} "You mean that Faerie Fire lets me sneak attack ANYONE?! And there's no save and no SR?! ARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!" {fade back in} Blecch. That wasn't a good moment for me. :)
NiQil 05-03-07, 10:07 PM	One of these days I'll have them all join forces and start my own thieves guild ;) Maybe one of these days you'll get within arm's reach of me....unless a year went by while I wasn't looking, I believe I still far and away have the most characters ever created here....I haven't kept track, but I would estimate that I am above 50, and probably well above. I would run a search through the characters thread, but for a while Cat was having me use the same post for multiple characters because I had so many, so that wouldn't give an accurate count. I'm the only one he has ever granted that permission to LOL.
MindWandererB 05-03-07, 10:19 PM	Maybe one of these days you'll get within arm's reach of me....unless a year went by while I wasn't looking, I believe I still far and away have the most characters ever created here....I haven't kept track, but I would estimate that I am above 50, and probably well above. I would run a search through the characters thread, but for a while Cat was having me use the same post for multiple characters because I had so many, so that wouldn't give an accurate count. I'm the only one he has ever granted that permission to LOL. I don't think you quite hit 50. I have the log of retired characters, and you have 38 on it. There are one or two that are missing by accident, but nearly all of them (even the re-used posts) are on there. Then you add 4 in the Graveyard and your 5 currently active ones, bringing you to 47. Pretty darn close, though.
Yitzi 05-03-07, 10:33 PM	{shakes head} I think I'll NEVER forget that experience again. EVER. {classic memory montage} "You mean that Faerie Fire lets me sneak attack ANYONE?! And there's no save and no SR?! ARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!" {fade back in} Blecch. That wasn't a good moment for me. :) How does Faerie fire let you sneak attack?
NiQil 05-03-07, 10:34 PM	I don't think you quite hit 50. I have the log of retired characters, and you have 38 on it. There are one or two that are missing by accident, but nearly all of them (even the re-used posts) are on there. Then you add 4 in the Graveyard and your 5 currently active ones, bringing you to 47. Pretty darn close, though. And of all of that, what I really saw was No, you are not there yet. Try harder and put a few more up. Sounds like a challenge to me :P
TheMagister 05-03-07, 10:50 PM	How does Faerie fire let you sneak attack? The language of the spell causes it to be the perfect foil to all manner of sneak attack counters (like blur, darkness, and invisibility). When I was running my rogue, I kept getting sneak attack countered, and lost a lot. I tried Glitterdust, but that spell doesn't have the specific language that faerie fire does (even though it does the same thing conceptually, only better and brighter).
Yitzi 05-03-07, 10:55 PM	The language of the spell causes it to be the perfect foil to all manner of sneak attack counters (like blur, darkness, and invisibility). When I was running my rogue, I kept getting sneak attack countered, and lost a lot. I tried Glitterdust, but that spell doesn't have the specific language that faerie fire does (even though it does the same thing conceptually, only better and brighter). I know that FF is one of the best sneak attack counters (maybe even better than Glitterdust, as it lasts longer, has longer range, and is only lvl1), but TM said "Faerie Fire lets me sneak attack ANYONE", not "Faerie Fire lets me block sneak attacks by ANYONE".
TheMagister 05-03-07, 11:03 PM	Sorry sorry. Should've said: "You mean faerie fire gets rid of all those damned sneak attack counters? And it's so easy to get/use?! ARRRGGGGHHHH!" Better? TM
Ferox_the_Ancient 05-03-07, 11:09 PM	is anyone online right now that could help me a bit with build my first char for the board? IM me at diablo1476 on aim
TheMagister 05-03-07, 11:11 PM	I would, but I have no IM access while at work. Sorry!
Ferox_the_Ancient 05-03-07, 11:15 PM	its cool...just having a bit of trouble with the char sheet...i guess i just dont understand a couple of things...like where do i actually list my armor and such oh...and can druids take improved natural attack here? and if so will it qualify for improved grapple?
TheMagister 05-03-07, 11:24 PM	List your armor under your "Equipment:" section like this: +1 Mithral Shirt [10 lbs][2250gp] Be sure to add it into your AC listing at the top of your character sheet: AC 21 [+5 dex, +5 armor, +1 shield], Touch 15, Flat 16 [+5 (+1 mithral shirt), +1 [Ma] buckler] [+3 shield (Force Screen), +1 insight (Defensive Precognition)] The blue notations are situational modifiers. If you're doing an armored druid, that's the way to notate what AC boni you lose when you wildshape. As far as INA for druids: I guess as long as it's INA (claw) and/or INA (bite), it's okay. They'd only be able to utilize it while wildshaped into something with a claw or a bite, but I see no reason why they couldn't take it.
Zevox 05-03-07, 11:29 PM	As far as INA for druids: I guess as long as it's INA (claw) and/or INA (bite), it's okay. They'd only be able to utilize it while wildshaped into something with a claw or a bite, but I see no reason why they couldn't take it. No, they wouldn't be able to take it. The prerequisite for INA is that you have a natural attack, and in their natural form Druids do not. They can't take it just because they have the ability to shape-shift (else you'd have stupidity like wizards being able to take INA (Bite) and get the effects of it on any form with a bite they polymorphed into). and if so will it qualify for improved grapple? Um, Improved Grapple requires Improved Unarmed Strike. INA is completely unrelated. So no, it won't. Zevox
TheMagister 05-04-07, 12:06 AM	I'm thinking of a couple of custom wondrous magic items: one for Hood and one for Rubicanti. I'd appreciate thoughts, constructive criticism, and any other brand of help. 1) Goggles of Aurasight - these dark, deepcrystal-lensed goggles, when worn over the eyes, enable the wearer to see the aura (in game terms: the alignment) of living things as a light corona that surrounds their corporeal form. Creatures viewed in this manner do not benefit from the concealment normally provided by darkness, blur, displacement, invisibility, or similar effects. Line of Sight is required to "see" the aura of a creature, and barriers that obstruct normal sight to a creature's position hide their auras as well. Because the lenses are so dark, the wearer is partially blinded while wearing them and incurs some of the penalties associated with being in an area of darkness (namely: moves at 1/2 speed, loses dex to AC, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and takes a -4 penalty on search chekcs and most strength and dexterity-based skill checks). Because of the outlining effect of the auras, however, the wearer can attack creatures whose auras he can see without penalty. Faint Telepathy and Clairsentience; ML 3; Craft Universal Item; Read Thoughts and Detect Psionics; Price: ???? Combines the effect of Read Thoughts with Faerie Fire, with a little RP downside thrown in. I'd be willing to drop the downside (I only put it in there because the idea of looking through dark violet deepcrystal and not being hindered struck me as ludicrous), or downgrade it to "shadowy illumination" or something. OR it could be limited to a 60' range (like the Read Thoughts power) and grant any creature beyond that range concealment or total concealment. I kinda like that better. 2) Amulet/Bracers/Gloves of Psychokinetic Strike - On command, these (insert slot appropriate item) sheathe the wearer's unarmed strike with lethal psionic energy for 1 minute. Unarmed strikes made during this time period deal an extra 1d4 points of damage on a successful hit. This extra damage is ectoplasmic in nature and is not affected by damage reduction. Moderate Psychokinesis; ML 10th; Craft Universal Item; concussion blast; Price: 4000 (gloves/bracers), 6000 (amulet) Modeled after the amulet of mighty fists, of course.
Yitzi 05-04-07, 12:32 AM	I'm thinking of a couple of custom wondrous magic items: one for Hood and one for Rubicanti. I'd appreciate thoughts, constructive criticism, and any other brand of help. 1) Goggles of Aurasight - these dark, deepcrystal-lensed goggles, when worn over the eyes, enable the wearer to see the aura (in game terms: the alignment) of living things as a light corona that surrounds their corporeal form. Creatures viewed in this manner do not benefit from the concealment normally provided by darkness, blur, displacement, invisibility, or similar effects. Line of Sight is required to "see" the aura of a creature, and barriers that obstruct normal sight to a creature's position hide their auras as well. Because the lenses are so dark, the wearer is partially blinded while wearing them and incurs some of the penalties associated with being in an area of darkness (namely: moves at 1/2 speed, loses dex to AC, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and takes a -4 penalty on search chekcs and most strength and dexterity-based skill checks). Because of the outlining effect of the auras, however, the wearer can attack creatures whose auras he can see without penalty. Faint Telepathy and Clairsentience; ML 3; Craft Universal Item; Read Thoughts and Detect Psionics; Price: ???? Combines the effect of Read Thoughts with Faerie Fire, with a little RP downside thrown in. I'd be willing to drop the downside (I only put it in there because the idea of looking through dark violet deepcrystal and not being hindered struck me as ludicrous), or downgrade it to "shadowy illumination" or something. OR it could be limited to a 60' range (like the Read Thoughts power) and grant any creature beyond that range concealment or total concealment. I kinda like that better. 2) Amulet/Bracers/Gloves of Psychokinetic Strike - On command, these (insert slot appropriate item) sheathe the wearer's unarmed strike with lethal psionic energy for 1 minute. Unarmed strikes made during this time period deal an extra 1d4 points of damage on a successful hit. This extra damage is ectoplasmic in nature and is not affected by damage reduction. Moderate Psychokinesis; ML 10th; Craft Universal Item; concussion blast; Price: 4000 (gloves/bracers), 6000 (amulet) Modeled after the amulet of mighty fists, of course. gloves of aurasight-Neither of those spells give you concealment breaking ability, so you need a spell that does. Psychokinetic strike-concussion blast isn't delivered by attacks, so I don't really think it's the right choice. Perhaps painful strike instead.
TheMagister 05-04-07, 12:39 AM	The goggles of aurasight could be made using spells, but I wanted to keep it psionic in nature (in keeping with the whole "aura" thing). I could use the faerie fire spell and accomplish the same effect, I guess, but it wouldn't "fit' the theme I was going for. Still, you're probably right. As for psychokinetic strike, I was using the weapon enhancement "psychokinetic" from the XPH as an almost direct model, so I'm pretty sure that concussion blast is the right power for the ability.
Ferox_the_Ancient 05-04-07, 12:52 AM	ok...sorry to be such a bother...but the whole thing that you guys do with preparing spells has me confused as hell...is anyone able to explain to someone who at this point may as well be retarded?(me)...
TheMagister 05-04-07, 01:18 AM	Well, do you want a technical explanation or a "why we do it" explanation? Techinical: your character fights three arena bouts in a single in-game "day". Total up your memorized spell levels: 4 level 1 spells = (4*1) = 4 2 level 2 spells = (2*2) = 4 --------------------------- ....................total.:8 And then divide that number by 3 and round up: 8/3=2.6666667 => 3. That's the number of spell levels you can cast per fight for three consecutive fights. Whether that is 1 second level spell and 1 first level spell, or 3 first level spells, you can only cast 3 SL in your first fight of the day. Any SL not used in your first fight carry over to your second fight, and any not used in your first and second fights carry over to your third fight. After your third fight, you rest and regain spells. For example: Fight 1: you cast invisibility from memory (2 SL). You don't use any other SL. You've used 2/3 SL for this fight. 1 SL carries over to fight 2. You've used 2 out of 8 SLs for the day. Fight 2: you have 4 SL available for this fight (3 normally, and 1 leftover from week 1). You cast magic missile twice and kill your opponent. You've used 2/4 SL for this fight. 2 SLs carry over to fight 3. You've used 4 out of 8 SLs for the day. Fight 3: you have 4 SL available for this fight (2 SL used in fight 1 plus 2 SL used in fight 2 means you've only got 4 left even though 2 carried over from fight 2). You may use them all. "Why we do it." It has been observed that allowing a spellcaster to "go nova" and expend all his or her SLs on a single fight leads to an imbalance that unfairly favors the spellcaster compared to non-spellcasting characters. After all, in a normal gaming environment a spellcaster has to strictly ration his spells so that they last all day; if he blows his load (to be crude) all on one fight, he becomes dead weight and less than useless to his party for the rest of the day. To compensate, the ruling bodies of this board created the "Three Fight Cycle" framework. The 3FC forces a spellcaster to conserve his spells for later competitions, and gives a non-spellcasting class a serious competitive chance against the spellcaster in a straight fight. If a clever or lucky spellcaster can eliminate an opponent using only a minimum number of SLs, he becomes stronger as the 3FC progresses, but this has only happened a few times in my memory. Mostly, it results in more even and competitive matches in which a timely saving throw by a non-spellcaster makes the contest much more interesting than forcing a non-spellcaster to make (for example) three or four saving throws vs. "you almost automatically lose" effects like blindness or sleep/deep slumber. Forcing spellcasters to ration their spells creates a more competitive environment in the leadership's opinion. It's been in place for about a year, and seems to be performing very well. Bueno? (Did I do good, ya'll? Add anything I missed, or change whatever I didn't correctly express.) TM
Ferox_the_Ancient 05-04-07, 01:32 AM	Well, do you want a technical explanation or a "why we do it" explanation? nvm...sorry i figured it out
MitzaVolchenko 05-04-07, 01:38 AM	ok...sorry to be such a bother...but the whole thing that you guys do with preparing spells has me confused as hell...is anyone able to explain to someone who at this point may as well be retarded?(me)... Been here a long time and it still boggles me...basically you create as normal, but for the first fight of your 3 fight cycle, you may only use one third of your spells per day rounded up. Any unused spells carry over to the next fight in the 3 fight cycle. So if my bard can cast a total of 8 spell levels per day (4 first level spells, 2 second level spells) then she can use 8/3=2.66666 spells for the first fight...rounded up 3 spells. So I can cast one of my 2nd lvls and 1 first level or 3 first level or whatever combination I like. If I cast no spells in my first fight I can cast 6 in my second fight. If I cast one first level spell in my first fight, I can cast 5 in my second fight. And so on and so forth. In the case of prepared spell casters like wizards or clerics, they have to specify in advance which spells are prepared for the three fights and mark off which they have used each fight. They still follow the 1/3rd rule as above. Remember to buy a spell component pouch, holy symbol, or individual components as needed. Most pitlords are forgiving on the first time mess up there, but they don't have to be. Not sure if I answered your question, but feel free to keep asking until one of us manages to explain what you are looking for :) Oh, and welcome to the CoCo Ferox.
Ferox_the_Ancient 05-04-07, 02:03 AM	hehe...got that part down...but i have another problem that i just realized...i have no dmg...mine was stolen and i havent gotten around to replacing it yet. :weep: so...now i have to try and find all the prices for everything by hand... thanks for the welcome
MindWandererB 05-04-07, 03:01 AM	hehe...got that part down...but i have another problem that i just realized...i have no dmg...mine was stolen and i havent gotten around to replacing it yet. :weep: so...now i have to try and find all the prices for everything by hand... thanks for the welcome Pretty much everything from the DMG can be found in one of the many online SRDs. The only exceptions are the Red Wizard PrC and the Tattoo Focus feat.
hogarth 05-04-07, 06:43 AM	Pretty much everything from the DMG can be found in one of the many online SRDs. The only exceptions are the Red Wizard PrC and the Tattoo Focus feat. I wouldn't say those are the only exceptions. Isn't the Witch NPC class missing from the SRD, too? Or is that an invalid choice for the CoCo?
hogarth 05-04-07, 06:54 AM	I'm thinking of a couple of custom wondrous magic items: one for Hood and one for Rubicanti. I'd appreciate thoughts, constructive criticism, and any other brand of help. 1) Goggles of Aurasight - these dark, deepcrystal-lensed goggles, when worn over the eyes, enable the wearer to see the aura (in game terms: the alignment) of living things as a light corona that surrounds their corporeal form. Creatures viewed in this manner do not benefit from the concealment normally provided by darkness, blur, displacement, invisibility, or similar effects. 2) Amulet/Bracers/Gloves of Psychokinetic Strike - On command, these (insert slot appropriate item) sheathe the wearer's unarmed strike with lethal psionic energy for 1 minute. Unarmed strikes made during this time period deal an extra 1d4 points of damage on a successful hit. This extra damage is ectoplasmic in nature and is not affected by damage reduction. Moderate Psychokinesis; ML 10th; Craft Universal Item; concussion blast; Price: 4000 (gloves/bracers), 6000 (amulet) #1 seems most like a continuous item of Touchsight to me (except for the unlimited range and the drawback). A Touchsight item would cost: 2000 * 5 * 3 * 2 = 60,000 gp for a continuous item 1800 * 5 * 3 = 24,000 gp for a command-thought item I don't have any opinion on how much discount the drawback would provide. #2 seems most like a use-activated item of Claw of Energy or maybe Painful Strike. The Painful Strike (cheaper) one would cost 1800 * 3 * 2 = 10,800 gp. Those prices are probably a little on the high side, I imagine, but the #1 is particularly powerful.
Yitzi 05-04-07, 08:14 AM	I wouldn't say those are the only exceptions. Isn't the Witch NPC class missing from the SRD, too? Or is that an invalid choice for the CoCo? I don't think there are any rules against using NPC classes, but nobody does because they're significantly weaker than PC classes.
McJarvis 05-04-07, 08:18 AM	I don't think there are any rules against using NPC classes, but nobody does because they're significantly weaker than PC classes. Plenty of people(including two of my characters) have used the NPC classes in the past. With the inclusion of UA material they are even more worthless, though. IMO.
Sindorin 05-04-07, 10:00 AM	The Witch would likely work just fine here even though it is not in the SRD. It is in the DMG just like the Red Wizard is. We have Red Wizards but they aren't in the SRD either.
templer10 05-04-07, 10:52 AM	just to confirm something - the grates in the sewer map - it's not said so in the map description but i assume they give cover when attacking from 1 side of them to the other?
TelinArtho 05-04-07, 10:58 AM	just to confirm something - the grates in the sewer map - it's not said so in the map description but i assume they give cover when attacking from 1 side of them to the other? Well it doesn't say and I think there's only been a handful of times that it has come up. They should definitely be clarified. I remember only one instance in one of my fights where it came up and I believe I did give people on opposite sides cover from each other. I wouldn't say this is the rule though - and like I said - the rules are silent on the issue.
templer10 05-04-07, 11:10 AM	Well it doesn't say and I think there's only been a handful of times that it has come up. They should definitely be clarified. I remember only one instance in one of my fights where it came up and I believe I did give people on opposite sides cover from each other. I wouldn't say this is the rule though - and like I said - the rules are silent on the issue. well if it will come up in the FFA i have to run unless the elders will rule diffrently - iam going to give cover for all concerned since the way we rule cover here is that when even the smallish part of something that gives cover is in the way of a shot it's counted as cover so something that hinder movement as much as the grates and is basicly a wall with bars in it is cover.
McJarvis 05-04-07, 11:26 AM	Todays Order of the Stick made me think of CoCo. Look at all those variations on paladins in the end-> even the difference in chosen items shows off the personality & effectiveness of each one.... http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0447.html
MindWandererB 05-04-07, 12:33 PM	Well it doesn't say and I think there's only been a handful of times that it has come up. They should definitely be clarified. I remember only one instance in one of my fights where it came up and I believe I did give people on opposite sides cover from each other. I wouldn't say this is the rule though - and like I said - the rules are silent on the issue. I'd personally go with the "lesser cover" akin to being in the same square as a small tree (+2 AC, +1 Reflex).
McJarvis 05-04-07, 12:46 PM	The picture thread has been archived.
MindWandererB 05-04-07, 01:29 PM	The picture thread has been archived. Damn... one more thing for me to do.
Vathelokai 05-04-07, 01:38 PM	The picture thread has been archived. Actually, so has the world of gladius thread. I wasn't going to bring it up until the GM situation was resolved.
MindWandererB 05-04-07, 01:53 PM	Actually, so has the world of gladius thread. I wasn't going to bring it up until the GM situation was resolved. Yeah, I knew about that one. I'm glad somebody looks at it besides me. I won't nag the WizOs about anything until my title gets changed, though.
McJarvis 05-04-07, 04:02 PM	Heh, you should've heard him when he first showed back up here (apparently McJarvis was around long before many of us, but took a long while off before returning). He talked about how he'd never had a character past ECL 3 so much you'd think he was bragging ;) . Man, have I stopped doing that? I knew I was forgetting _something_. ;) I think there are only two people here who have been around longer than I. That changes depending on ToK's schedule, of course... B-)
NiQil 05-05-07, 03:49 PM	Alright....my first attempt in some time at a spell/power-slinger....I give you Apocalypse. Feedback appreciated. No expendables is intentional. Some of his future power selections may be suboptimal, so I would especially appreciate feedback there. I will say, however, that all of the Energy powers are part of the theme of the design, so those aren't going anywhere. The first person that says warhorse gets shot. In the face. With a hammer.
templer10 05-05-07, 03:57 PM	Alright....my first attempt in some time at a spell/power-slinger....I give you Apocalypse. Feedback appreciated. No expendables is intentional. Some of his future power selections may be suboptimal, so I would especially appreciate feedback there. I will say, however, that all of the Energy powers are part of the theme of the design, so those aren't going anywhere. The first person that says warhorse gets shot. In the face. With a hammer. i will most strongly suggest getting Vigor - it's 1 of the best first level powers out there. also you might want to switch out declaration or grease for entanglicng ectoplasem - that is if you dont want it as dorja/powerstones - it's exellent crowd control and enemy debuff - your chance to hit with ranged touch is generaly higher then the other guy not making the reflex DC 14.
Hirumajoe 05-05-07, 04:27 PM	Alright....my first attempt in some time at a spell/power-slinger....I give you Apocalypse. Feedback appreciated. No expendables is intentional. Some of his future power selections may be suboptimal, so I would especially appreciate feedback there. I will say, however, that all of the Energy powers are part of the theme of the design, so those aren't going anywhere. The first person that says warhorse gets shot. In the face. With a hammer. How about a Pony? *Attempts to dodge* *Fails saving throw* *Hirumajoe Dies* Actually though, I do agree with Templer. I'd think long and hard between Deceleration and Entangling Ectoplasm. They have about the same net effect, however Entangling Ectoplasm also applies a Dex penalty, an attack pentalty, forces Concentration checks to cast/manifest, and ignores SR. The biggest difference is in duration though which admittedly is in Deceleration's favor. I'd recommend grabbing something that works with the Null Psionics Field if you're going to take it. Such as Astral Construct with the Expanded Knowledge feat. Also, they make for decent blockers on the really confined maps. I'd recommend a melee weapon and a ranged weapon (dagger/light crossbow or something). If its for RP reasons that you don't have any then I guess thats fine, but it is sub-optimal. Those are my suggestions anyways.
Zevox 05-05-07, 05:10 PM	Alright....my first attempt in some time at a spell/power-slinger....I give you Apocalypse. Feedback appreciated. No expendables is intentional. Some of his future power selections may be suboptimal, so I would especially appreciate feedback there. I will say, however, that all of the Energy powers are part of the theme of the design, so those aren't going anywhere. The first person that says warhorse gets shot. In the face. With a hammer. Much like the others, I'd heavily recommend Vigor. The extra hp is a life-saver for psions. If you don't want powerstones, I see you have a dorje on him aready, so perhaps you'd consider getting it as a dorje (an ML 2 augmented is 50 charges of +10 hp for 1500 gp - not bad). I'd also agree with swapping out Deceleration for something, possibly Entangling Ectoplasm (or Vigor). Its a sub-par power no matter how you look at it. Some of the other powers it looks like you've planning to take aren't very good ones either. Swarm of Crystals is incredibly short-range and inferior in damage to nearly everything (its 1st-level counterpart, Crystal Shard, most notably). Concealing Amorpha and Biofeedback are really not that useful as defensive powers go, particularly for Psions. You have a lot more energy powers than you need - come on, Energy Burst, Energy Bolt, and Energy Cone as 3rd-level powers? They're all the same thing, just in a different shape, and they're all inferior to Energy Missile anyway! And you've got Energy Ball at 4th level and Energy Wave at 7th too to top it off. Theres far more useful things you could be doing with those powers. You don't even have Power Resistance on that list, which is one of the most useful psionic powers out there. Another thought - you might want to consider taking 3 ability points out of one of your ability scores to bump your intelligence to 17. Then you can boost it to 18 at level 4. You are a primary caster after all. Why is that shield Mithril, might I ask? If you just want the ACP-0, Darkwood is much cheaper (about 800 gp cheaper in fact). And yeah, like Hirumajoe said, you should probably pick up some physical weapons - a light crossbow and dagger or quarterstaff at least. ...and I've gotta say, you are shorting yourself by not getting any mount at all. Even if its just a riding dog or something. Goblins do have a +4 racial boost to ride for a reason you know. Zevox
NiQil 05-05-07, 05:55 PM	Much like the others, I'd heavily recommend Vigor. The extra hp is a life-saver for psions. If you don't want powerstones, I see you have a dorje on him aready, so perhaps you'd consider getting it as a dorje (an ML 2 augmented is 50 charges of +10 hp for 1500 gp - not bad). I'd also agree with swapping out Deceleration for something, possibly Entangling Ectoplasm (or Vigor). Its a sub-par power no matter how you look at it. Some of the other powers it looks like you've planning to take aren't very good ones either. Swarm of Crystals is incredibly short-range and inferior in damage to nearly everything (its 1st-level counterpart, Crystal Shard, most notably). Concealing Amorpha and Biofeedback are really not that useful as defensive powers go, particularly for Psions. You have a lot more energy powers than you need - come on, Energy Burst, Energy Bolt, and Energy Cone as 3rd-level powers? They're all the same thing, just in a different shape, and they're all inferior to Energy Missile anyway! And you've got Energy Ball at 4th level and Energy Wave at 7th too to top it off. Theres far more useful things you could be doing with those powers. You don't even have Power Resistance on that list, which is one of the most useful psionic powers out there. Another thought - you might want to consider taking 3 ability points out of one of your ability scores to bump your intelligence to 17. Then you can boost it to 18 at level 4. You are a primary caster after all. Why is that shield Mithril, might I ask? If you just want the ACP-0, Darkwood is much cheaper (about 800 gp cheaper in fact). And yeah, like Hirumajoe said, you should probably pick up some physical weapons - a light crossbow and dagger or quarterstaff at least. ...and I've gotta say, you are shorting yourself by not getting any mount at all. Even if its just a riding dog or something. Goblins do have a +4 racial boost to ride for a reason you know. Zevox Thanks for the feedback everyone. As you can see, I don't make power-tossers very often. I've dropped Deceleration, Swarm of Crystals, Null Psionics Field and Biofeedback and I have picked up Vigor, Entangling Ectoplasm, Matter Agitation and Power Resistance in his power progression On the matter of the mithral shield....that is part of the theme of the build, so it stays. Same with the Energy powers, as I stated previously. Sub-optimal though they may be, they stay. The physical weapons are coming...just didn't have enough cash, and they were the things I could most easily live without for the immediate future. Though, they will probably only consist of a CDG weapon, as I intend for this character to be pp/dorje/psicrown dependant. And as for the mount.....you all should really know better by now than to suggest that I buy a mount for one of my characters. Barring an actual mounted-combat type build, the only PC's of mine that will ever have mounts will be those that get them as class allies.
Zevox 05-05-07, 06:15 PM	The physical weapons are coming...just didn't have enough cash, and they were the things I could most easily live without for the immediate future. Though, they will probably only consist of a CDG weapon, as I intend for this character to be pp/dorje/psicrown dependant. Not enough money? A quarterstaff is free. If you want a CDG weapon, a Scythe is 18 gp, or (perhaps better for a small character) a Greataxe is 20 gp. Though why you need a CDG weapon with no way to paralyze or knock your foe unconscious without dropping him to negative hps anyway is beyond me. And as for the mount.....you all should really know better by now than to suggest that I buy a mount for one of my characters. Barring an actual mounted-combat type build, the only PC's of mine that will ever have mounts will be those that get them as class allies. I know, I just had to mention it. I've got a Goblin Psion myself, and hes had spectacular success just using his mount for hit-and-run manifesting and cover. And he does have the mounted combat feat, so he qualifies as a mounted-combat type build I suppose. Zevox
Rauul 05-05-07, 06:32 PM	Doses of Poison... are these considered Expendables or something different for the expendables cap?
NiQil 05-05-07, 06:35 PM	Doses of Poison... are these considered Expendables or something different for the expendables cap? A little looking in the CD will answer that: You may only own an amount of expendables (which are defined as oils/potions, tattoos, scrolls and powerstones) up to your ECL 2 x 50 gp.
Rauul 05-05-07, 06:46 PM	A little looking in the CD will answer that: Well i ask because of the whole Elixor of sneaking thing.. I don't know what all you have caps on here, I know about the Expendables cap and i know now about the Wonderous item cap and wand cap.. i wanted to know if there is a Poison cap..
Sjiggie 05-05-07, 07:05 PM	I just saw that Scorpionfolk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/scorpionfolk.htm) from the MM2 are listed in the SRD are they usable for the CoCo then or not?
NiQil 05-05-07, 07:31 PM	I just saw that Scorpionfolk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/scorpionfolk.htm) from the MM2 are listed in the SRD are they usable for the CoCo then or not? Keep in mind that this is not the official SRD, but rather someone's version of it. And I would be very much inclined to say that MM2 material is not open source, but I would have to check that. But in answer to your question, no.
Zevox 05-05-07, 07:50 PM	I just saw that Scorpionfolk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/scorpionfolk.htm) from the MM2 are listed in the SRD are they usable for the CoCo then or not? I don't see them in the SRD version I use (here (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/home.html)), so I'm inclined to think NiQil is right. Thats in there because whoever compiled that version of the SRD put it in, not because its an official part of the SRD. Therefore, not legal here. Zevox
NiQil 05-05-07, 07:59 PM	I don't see them in the SRD version I use (here (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/home.html)), so I'm inclined to think NiQil is right. Thats in there because whoever compiled that version of the SRD put it in, not because its an official part of the SRD. Therefore, not legal here. Zevox When in doubt, always go to the official source, which is here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35). If it isn't in there, it's not playable, unless our rules thread specifically says otherwise (in the case of the red wizard, UA variant material, etc).
hogarth 05-05-07, 08:26 PM	Keep in mind that this is not the official SRD, but rather someone's version of it. And I would be very much inclined to say that MM2 material is not open source, but I would have to check that. There are two creatures in the MM2 that are Open Gaming content (because they were cribbed from another Open Gaming product): the razor boar and the scorpionfolk. That's why Jans put them in there (although they probably shouldn't be intermingled with the regular SRD stuff like that).
hogarth 05-05-07, 08:28 PM	Not enough money? A quarterstaff is free. If you want a CDG weapon, a Scythe is 18 gp, or (perhaps better for a small character) a Greataxe is 20 gp. Also note that a character with enough intelligence can craft weapons even without ranks in Craft skills or tools. It's only a DC 12 Craft check to make a simple weapon, for instance.
Zevox 05-05-07, 08:33 PM	Also note that a character with enough intelligence can craft weapons even without ranks in Craft skills or tools. It's only a DC 12 Craft check to make a simple weapon, for instance. True, but then you need to buy tools for crafting. Without at least basic ones, you take -2 to the check, which in NiQil's case would reduce his craft mod to +1. They only cost 5 gp, but thats most of the money he'd be saving by crafting to begin with. Zevox
Yitzi 05-06-07, 12:00 AM	Question: How long does a quest have to take before the questlord is considered to have failed to do it properly and gains no credits (but still loses 6 credits for it being at least 3 weeks late)? Also, is it just my imagination or are all of Erithmu's missions well behind schedule?
MindWandererB 05-06-07, 02:44 AM	Question: How long does a quest have to take before the questlord is considered to have failed to do it properly and gains no credits (but still loses 6 credits for it being at least 3 weeks late)? Also, is it just my imagination or are all of Erithmu's missions well behind schedule? That's handled case-by-case. However, none of Rith's missions are considered late yet--he could still catch up if he's a bit behind.
TelinArtho 05-06-07, 10:34 AM	@Yitzi - I think Sir Valkin's is the closest to being even 1 week behind - and even he has started his 3rd encounter. Rith said he posted the intro stuff for this week and that he would be back on Monday (in the FotW thread). Be patient - everyone has real life to attend to - and Rith was good to let us know his time frame for the week.
McJarvis 05-06-07, 02:31 PM	He's going to be gathering information for a bit, but Nukpana (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12308764&postcount=1117) has entered Gladius. Obviously he has some shopping to do.
Aura_Blade 05-06-07, 07:54 PM	Hello. I posted my character, Kazero (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12318232&postcount=1118), on another thread and wonder if anyone can take a look to make sure I did everything correctly. I'm pretty certain about the numbers, I used the JavaScript online character generator at pathguy.com, but I wasn't certain what to put for Non-Combat Abilities, Special Abilities and Attacks, and where I should put the conditional modifier for Still Mind (the +2 vs. enchantments).
Yitzi 05-06-07, 08:09 PM	Non-combat abilities-none for your character. This is where an elf would put his auto-search ability or something like that. special abilities and attacks-put the details for trip attacks here, as well as deflect arrows and stunning fist. Full details of flurry of blows with each eligible weapon (remember, monk weapons only) can go here or in the normal attacks section, I would advise the latter. Evasion can go here or can be mentioned after your reflex save. Combat expertise probably should be listed as a conditional modifier to AC and to each attack (either by the relevant listing on the sheet, in blue, or under the conditional modifiers section). Anything listed elsewhere does not need to be repeated here. Still mind should be listed as a conditional modifier to your will save. Also, the +3 to your AC is probably a Wisdom bonus, not a Monk bonus, and the +10 to speed is an enhancement bonus.
Aura_Blade 05-06-07, 09:02 PM	Thanks for answering my questions and pointing out mistakes in what I called some modifiers. If anyone finds anything else, or if I misunderstood anything, please let me know.
TheMagister 05-07-07, 07:31 AM	#1 seems most like a continuous item of Touchsight to me (except for the unlimited range and the drawback). A Touchsight item would cost: 2000 * 5 * 3 * 2 = 60,000 gp for a continuous item 1800 * 5 * 3 = 24,000 gp for a command-thought item I don't have any opinion on how much discount the drawback would provide. #2 seems most like a use-activated item of Claw of Energy or maybe Painful Strike. The Painful Strike (cheaper) one would cost 1800 * 3 * 2 = 10,800 gp. Those prices are probably a little on the high side, I imagine, but the #1 is particularly powerful. Hmm. Thanks for the input (I'm surprised nobody else pitched in!). I'll take their silence as agreement with your conclusions. 1) So I'd be better off with a wondrous item that can spam Faerie Fire. (sigh) Totally doesn't fit my character theme, but I've gotta find some way to deal with those pesky sniper builds. 2) As for this one: I have a question about your reasoning. An amulet of mighty fists +1 costs 6K and grants a +1 to hit and damage. Psychokinetic's extra 1d4 ectoplasmic damage is considered to be equal to a +1 enhancement bonus on attacks and damage (when applied to a weapon). Why wouldn't an enchantment that is considered to provide an equal benefit when used on a weapon have the same costs when it is considered to provide that same benefit from a wondrous item? I'm speaking from an "all things being equal" kind of position, you understand.
hogarth 05-07-07, 01:44 PM	2) As for this one: I have a question about your reasoning. An amulet of mighty fists +1 costs 6K and grants a +1 to hit and damage. Psychokinetic's extra 1d4 ectoplasmic damage is considered to be equal to a +1 enhancement bonus on attacks and damage (when applied to a weapon). Why wouldn't an enchantment that is considered to provide an equal benefit when used on a weapon have the same costs when it is considered to provide that same benefit from a wondrous item? I'm speaking from an "all things being equal" kind of position, you understand. Because you can't "just" buy the Psychokinetic enhancement without the +1 -- the minimum cost is 8,000 gp for +1 to hit, +1d4+1 to damage, so that makes the cost of Psychokinetic alone worth at least 8000 - 2000 = 6000 gp. If you could think of a level 1 power/spell that does at least 1d4 damage and lasts more than 1 round, it would go a long way to proving that your proposed item would cost less than 10,800 gp, IMO.
TheMagister 05-07-07, 01:56 PM	Matter Agitation? :P But seriously, "the powers that be" decided that adding a +1 enhancement bonus to anyone's unarmed strike via a neck item is worth 6,000 gp. The prices of a +1 psychokinetic longsword and a +2 longsword are the same. So a +1 enhancement bonus is worth exactly the same as the psychokinetic enhancement. How is that not a linear equivalence?
templer10 05-07-07, 01:57 PM	Because you can't "just" buy the Psychokinetic enhancement without the +1 -- the minimum cost is 8,000 gp for +1 to hit, +1d4+1 to damage, so that makes the cost of Psychokinetic alone worth at least 8000 - 2000 = 6000 gp. If you could think of a level 1 power/spell that does at least 1d4 damage and lasts more than 1 round, it would go a long way to proving that your proposed item would cost less than 10,800 gp, IMO. matter agitation last more then 1 round and potentially a lot more then 1d6 dmg but it IS a concetration power
McJarvis 05-07-07, 02:06 PM	Matter Agitation? :P But seriously, "the powers that be" decided that adding a +1 enhancement bonus to anyone's unarmed strike via a neck item is worth 6,000 gp. The prices of a +1 psychokinetic longsword and a +2 longsword are the same. So a +1 enhancement bonus is worth exactly the same as the psychokinetic enhancement. How is that not a linear equivalence? As detailed above by hogarth, exponential(a trait should be priced at that trait + the +1 attribute that is required to get it in the first place). I'd say that some bracers(or whatever they were) that added a +1 enchancement bonus & the psychokinetic trait to your unarmed attack would be worth more than a +1 psychokinetic longsword. (since you can't normally enchant your fists, so this is a "wrong slot" item)
Macbrea 05-07-07, 04:13 PM	I have a question for those that might know: If you pay 10ş to take UA paragon half-elf do you have to pay another 10ş to use the first level class feature of Divided Ancestry?
McJarvis 05-07-07, 04:14 PM	I have a question for those that might know: If you pay 10ş to take UA paragon half-elf do you have to pay another 10ş to use the first level class feature of Divided Ancestry? Yes
Macbrea 05-07-07, 04:17 PM	That could make playing Paragon half-elf 3/paragon elf 3 expensive. :P
McJarvis 05-07-07, 04:19 PM	That could make playing Paragon half-elf 3/paragon elf 3 expensive. :P Yup. Though I would suggest you throw a level of wizard in before leveling up via that progression :)
TheMagister 05-07-07, 04:19 PM	Hey, McJ... Get Cupid ready!! (please!) TM
McJarvis 05-07-07, 04:22 PM	Hey, McJ... Get Cupid ready!! (please!) TM Whoa...how did I forget that? Oh right, the sunlight ;) Don't worry, I'll be gettin 'er ready on time :-) I'll even participate in tactics!(wooo!)
Macbrea 05-07-07, 04:23 PM	Well, I was looking at more: Paragon Half-elf 1/Paragon Elf 1/Wizard 1 as a character concept. But don't really think it's worth 20ş to play.
Vathelokai 05-07-07, 04:27 PM	Anyone feel like picking appart my newest creation. Still no name or background yet, so ignore the blandness... Unholy Ninja
MindWandererB 05-07-07, 04:35 PM	Anyone feel like picking appart my newest creation. Still no name or background yet, so ignore the blandness... Unholy Ninja Enlarge Person is not a cleric spell, only a domain spell, so you can't prep it in your non-domain slot. I can't figure out for the life of me where the build is going... it it just an effort to make a monk viable by tossing in a level of magic-domain cleric? (Note to self to add concept to library: monk with Turn Undead, TWF, and Divine Might feat. Owww...)
TheMagister 05-07-07, 04:38 PM	(Note to self to add concept to library: monk with Turn Undead, TWF, and Divine Might feat. Owww...) Now all you've gotta do is figure out a way to make him hit consistently! ... And if you do, send me a PM. I'm trying like heck to pump Rubicanti's to-hit (and I can't think of anything else to use [besides compression, and that comes later]).
Macbrea 05-07-07, 04:42 PM	LV Class Stuff 4 monk +1stat 5 monk 6 assassin 7 assassin 8 assassin +1stat 9 shadowdancer 10 shadowdancer 11 shadowdancer 12 shadowdancer +1stat 13 shadowdancer 14 shadowdancer 15 shadowdancer 16 shadowdancer +1stat 17 shadowdancer 18 shadowdancer Would be my guess.. :P
SauroGrenom 05-07-07, 05:27 PM	I'm thinking of a couple of custom wondrous magic items: one for Hood and one for Rubicanti. I'd appreciate thoughts, constructive criticism, and any other brand of help. 1) Goggles of Aurasight - these dark, deepcrystal-lensed goggles, when worn over the eyes, enable the wearer to see the aura (in game terms: the alignment) of living things as a light corona that surrounds their corporeal form. Creatures viewed in this manner do not benefit from the concealment normally provided by darkness, blur, displacement, invisibility, or similar effects. Line of Sight is required to "see" the aura of a creature, and barriers that obstruct normal sight to a creature's position hide their auras as well. Because the lenses are so dark, the wearer is partially blinded while wearing them and incurs some of the penalties associated with being in an area of darkness (namely: moves at 1/2 speed, loses dex to AC, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and takes a -4 penalty on search chekcs and most strength and dexterity-based skill checks). Because of the outlining effect of the auras, however, the wearer can attack creatures whose auras he can see without penalty. Faint Telepathy and Clairsentience; ML 3; Craft Universal Item; Read Thoughts and Detect Psionics; Price: ???? Combines the effect of Read Thoughts with Faerie Fire, with a little RP downside thrown in. I'd be willing to drop the downside (I only put it in there because the idea of looking through dark violet deepcrystal and not being hindered struck me as ludicrous), or downgrade it to "shadowy illumination" or something. OR it could be limited to a 60' range (like the Read Thoughts power) and grant any creature beyond that range concealment or total concealment. I kinda like that better. 2) Amulet/Bracers/Gloves of Psychokinetic Strike - On command, these (insert slot appropriate item) sheathe the wearer's unarmed strike with lethal psionic energy for 1 minute. Unarmed strikes made during this time period deal an extra 1d4 points of damage on a successful hit. This extra damage is ectoplasmic in nature and is not affected by damage reduction. Moderate Psychokinesis; ML 10th; Craft Universal Item; concussion blast; Price: 4000 (gloves/bracers), 6000 (amulet) Modeled after the amulet of mighty fists, of course.Since it's my job to approve or deny such things, I should probably voice an opinion on these ideas. Recently you've had some really interesting ideas for magic items. Lots of this stuff is something I'm tempted to try and use my spidey sense of balance. But Since we are CoCo, we have to use the rules in the DMG and SRD for creating a custom magic item. Your idea for #1 is much like a use activated item of Aura Sight or Arcane Sight. Only there are some penalties slapped on it as well. We can easily price something that's based on a spell of some kind. However we cannot easily price penalties applied to using items. Unfortunately I couldn't make an add-hoc judgment on the effect of those penalties on price. For #2 I'm having trouble finding a spell effect to base this on. I've gotten close with powers like Painful Strike or Claws of Energy. You can use those "spell effects" to build a custom item (probably bracers) similar to what you propose.
TheMagister 05-07-07, 05:38 PM	Thanks for looking in to these items for me, Sauro! It's your input I've been fishing for most. {shoots a supercilious look at Hogarth} J/K!! :D Anyhow. For the #1 item: the penalties are entirely RP. We can dispense with them entirely if that's all that's holding you up. Arcane Sight would be a good spell to base them off of. Still, as far as price is concerned, I think I'd rather stick with a ring of faerie fire or something. Maybe a bunch of arrows enchanted with the faerie fire spell that activate on contact (with the ground, or something). Like a paint grenade, but magical! For the #2 item: What's wrong with sticking with concussion blast as the key power component and making the ectoplasmic sheathe function just like the psychokinetic weapon ability in the XPH?
Sindorin 05-07-07, 05:38 PM	By the way... I thought I'd mention that May 4th was the 3rd Anniversary of my joining this forum... wow... 3 years...
SauroGrenom 05-07-07, 06:00 PM	Thanks for looking in to these items for me, Sauro! It's your input I've been fishing for most. {shoots a supercilious look at Hogarth} J/K!! :D Anyhow. For the #2 item: What's wrong with sticking with concussion blast as the key power component and making the ectoplasmic sheathe function just like the psychokinetic weapon ability in the XPH? The thing is that a psychokinetic weapon enhancement applies to weapons, not wondrous items. The price of that +1 enhancement varies depending on the enhancement on the weapon that you apply it to. It could be only 6000gp or 38,000gp. There's no rules for applying similar effects to wondrous items. Wondrous items are immune to things like Disarm and are priced differently than weapons, so it's hard to price something like what you propose. Also think of the precedent that a wondrous item that enhances an attack with an enhancement bonus equivalent. It's not far to also suggest bracers of powerstoring and then use that with a ranged weapon. Then you can also get a ring with the body feeder effect, and apply that as well to your +5 bow. Now you get the equivalent of a +9 bow enhancement with illegal enhancement types for a ranged attack and at a cheaper cost than a normal +9 weapon. Basicially the fact is that the core rules don't provide a mechanic for using wondrous items to provide special abilities for weapons. There's only the amulet of mighty fists and it's priced very near to the cost of Greater Magic Fang CL20 with a use activated item. For some reason the SRD version actually costs 30,000gp higher than the equations provide for this item, but there's no reason given to deviate from the item pricing rules. So the only precedent for a wondrous item that provides an enhancement bonus like a weapon, is priced most closely to the spell effect that also provides that enhancement bonus at the given CL. I see no evidence that we can use to reverse engineer the value of an enhancement bonus on attacks given by a wondrous item.
MindWandererB 05-07-07, 06:05 PM	I should also mention that the Magic Item Compendium has some doohickies (augment crystals, I think they're called) that let you add effects onto existing weapons. Although that does provide a sort of precedent for this kind of pricing (as an augment crystal that adds ghost touch to a weapon costs the same no matter what weapon you attach it to), it's also clearly outside the scope of Core.
TheMagister 05-07-07, 06:07 PM	AH! Now I understand where hogarth was coming from. Yeah, that's abusable to hell and back. So, claw of energy, huh? Isn't that like, a 4th level power? Yecch. There's gotta be a way to get alternate energy types on Rubi's unarmed strike that don't cost 30K+. Or even 20K+. It's such a basic-type thing. I'll keep pokin' around, I guess. I don't suppose you'd mind doing some of the skull-sweat with me to try to "hammer" something like this out, would you?
TheMagister 05-07-07, 06:10 PM	Hey, how about expendable items? A potion of Flaming Fists was priced in the old 3.0 Sword and Fist book, and used Burning Hands as the key ability. I don't suppose something like that would be up for consideration? A potion of Freezing Fists using an Energy Subbed burning hands? TM
McJarvis 05-07-07, 06:11 PM	There's gotta be a way to get alternate energy types on Rubi's unarmed strike that don't cost 30K+. Or even 20K+. It's such a basic-type thing. I'll keep pokin' around, I guess. I don't suppose you'd mind doing some of the skull-sweat with me to try to "hammer" something like this out, would you? You could make a wondrous item based on energy substitution produce flame or flame sword spells.
TheMagister 05-07-07, 06:13 PM	There ya go! And produce flame is level 1, right? {goes to check a druid} Yep. That sounds like a plan and a half!
McJarvis 05-07-07, 06:19 PM	There ya go! And produce flame is level 1, right? {goes to check a druid} Yep. That sounds like a plan and a half! Bracers/Gauntlets/Gloves of ((Insert Element)) ((insert visual effect)) Natural weapons/unarmed attacks get +1d6 elemental damage(specified per item) Used: Produce flame, Craft Wondrous Item, Energy Substitution(for appropriate element). Price: CL 1xSL1x2,000(continuous)x2(min/level)=4,000 gp Tilt: Instead of touch attacks or being able to throw the flames/element in question, the element in question envelopes your hands so it adds the damage to natural/unarmed attacks only. This is a trade off for the limited nature of the spell in the first place. Additional tilt might place this item in the 6k->10k range.
SauroGrenom 05-07-07, 06:23 PM	There ya go! And produce flame is level 1, right? {goes to check a druid} Yep. That sounds like a plan and a half! There are lots of Touch Attack spells that would qualify for "charged" uses delivered as part of a natural attack. Most of this stuff will dissipate on a hit. Produce Flame would fall into that category (since the durraction changes on each hit). Painfull Strike is not charged, and it's only 2nd level. Look for things that actually augment a natural attack. Or you can go with a Use Activated item that has x/day uses and use a "charged" touch attack spell as the basis. I'd have no problem changing "Use Activated" to "Free Action Activated" at the same price, so you don't use the effect on the 1st three hits for the day. Rather you can choose. Spells like Chill Touch or Vampiric Touch, or Shocking Grasp could all fall into that category.
McJarvis 05-07-07, 06:25 PM	I'm pretty sure the item I suggested is valid, sauro. (nor do I think it opens any doors or is overpowered in and of itself) Not all spell-based items perfectly emulate the spell used to make them. (off the top of my head-> the Assassin's Dagger is a good example of this. Similar effects, but the spell doesn't actually give a +1 to the DC of anything, and it is a 1/use spell)
SauroGrenom 05-07-07, 06:50 PM	I'm pretty sure the item I suggested is valid, sauro. (nor do I think it opens any doors or is overpowered in and of itself) Not all spell-based items perfectly emulate the spell used to make them. (off the top of my head-> the Assassin's Dagger is a good example of this. Similar effects, but the spell doesn't actually give a +1 to the DC of anything, and it is a 1/use spell) Well using a "continuous use" modifier to a spell that is expended like Produce Flame with each use is kind of having it both ways. If such a spell were cast @CL1 and used to deliver a touch attack in the first 10 rounds, then it's duration could be only rounds or even less than one round. Why shouldn't we allow identical items based on other spells who's durration is dependent on the number of times the spell effect is called into effect? The answer is that I don't think allowing such a thing is balanced. Consider that your damage enhancement item proposed using Produce Flame is cheap. Very cheap in fact. It's cheaper than a flaming enhancement on a +1 sword (minimum 6000gp). It's also terribly stackable. You could buy 2 rings, gloves, bracers and vestments (for a monk) to get +1d6 elemental damage of all 5 types for about 4000gp for each. That's way cheaper than you can get similar bonuses on a sword. Nope, I'm sorry, but we cannot use that pricing regiment (or base spell) to put elemental damage on an unarmed strike.
McJarvis 05-07-07, 06:58 PM	Well using a "continuous use" modifier to a spell that is expended like Produce Flame with each use is kind of having it both ways. If such a spell were cast @CL1 and used to deliver a touch attack in the first 10 rounds, then it's duration could be only rounds or even less than one round. Why shouldn't we allow identical items based on other spells who's durration is dependent on the number of times the spell effect is called into effect? The answer is that I don't think allowing such a thing is balanced. Consider that your damage enhancement item proposed using Produce Flame is cheap. Very cheap in fact. It's cheaper than a flaming enhancement on a +1 sword (minimum 6000gp). It's also terribly stackable. You could buy 2 rings, gloves, bracers and vestments (for a monk) to get +1d6 elemental damage of all 5 types for about 4000gp for each. That's way cheaper than you can get similar bonuses on a sword. Nope, I'm sorry, but we cannot use that pricing regiment (or base spell) to put elemental damage on an unarmed strike. This all, of course, assumes that you(the DM of items) are a moron and would automatically allow any item to use the same pricing scheme regardless of power. I obviously wasn't suggesting that an item like the fabled ring of truestrike be allowed merely because I wanted to use the table in this case, nor did I suggest that such a thing was stackable(which is why I suggested the item only be allowed on slots that all don't stack with each other) Additionally, I mentioned that additional tilt would likely bring the item up to 10k. Regarding duration: The rules make no special rules about continuous items duration "changing" based on levels. You don't suddenly get the 10min/level duration just because you have 100 CL on a minute/level duration spell. In the same respect, you don't suddenly have to use the "rounds/level" duration if the caster level is 1 on a 1 min/level duration effect. (not sure if I grasped the point you were making, though) Regarding spell to be used: You have a valid point here, though you'd be better served using other items of similar value as examples. The flaming enhancement on weapons uses spells of 2nd level and higher(optional on which one you use: flame strike, flame blade, or fireball). Perhaps we should use flame blade, then? 2(spell level)x3(caster level)x2,000(continuous)x2(min/level duration)=24,000gp. Given your concerns of damage-type stacking(indeed-> if you wanted to make this item stackable with others of its type), this price is certainly more reasonable. If you don't agree, I'd like your opinion on what spell would be appropriate to base this on. ((Fireball or Flame Strike, energy substitution'd of course for simplicities sake)) TM just wants extra energy damage on his unarmed attacks a reasonable price. A 4th level power is obviously not reasonable. Let's try to explore this and find something he can use, eh?
Rauul 05-07-07, 07:02 PM	# If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.
templer10 05-07-07, 07:16 PM	iam wondering - what would you reccomend for a 6th level feat for a druid with augment summoning- iam conflicted between the obvios natural spell and Psionic hole. also- do i need to pay credits to teach animal companion custom trick such as grapple?
McJarvis 05-07-07, 07:17 PM	iam wondering - what would you reccomend for a 6th level feat for a druid with augment summoning- iam conflicted between the obvios natural spell and Psionic hole. Druids that don't take Natural Spell just ain't natural...
Rauul 05-07-07, 07:17 PM	iam wondering - what would you reccomend for a 6th level feat for a druid with augment summoning- iam conflicted between the obvios natural spell and Psionic hole. death
Rauul 05-07-07, 07:28 PM	Anyone feel like picking appart my newest creation. Still no name or background yet, so ignore the blandness... Unholy Ninja I like him... but i still feel that Wands Shouldn't cost credits when Dorjes (psionic wands) don't.. is Just plain wrong... and now we have Charaters with Augmented Dorjes at no credit cost... Sorry but i think the Elder incharge of the Blackmarket really needs to rethink about the balance between Dorjes (that can hold any power up to level 9 and be augmented at no credit cost) and Wands (that can only hold up to 4th level spells, and if they aren't on a list cost credits ( have yet to see anyone buy an expanded wand of magic missile so don't know if that costs credits also)) Edit=> Honestly.. why should a Wand of Mage Armor [50/50] [750 gp] [5 credits] Dorje: Inertial Armor - Power Level 1 [CL 1] (50) [750gp] Both do the same thing... one costs credits and one don't... go figure the balance and then we have this... Dorja of enlarged energy ray ML2[Aug] 50 charges[00 lbs][1500 gp] 4 different types of energy double ranged, double the normal damage and it costs no credits..
Macbrea 05-07-07, 07:41 PM	It should be noted that the magic item: Amulet of Mighty Fist is based off a weapon already. +1 = 2,000gp x 2 for both fists x 1.5 (incorrect location) = 6,000gp +2 = 8,000gp x 2 for both fists x 1.5 (incorrect location) = 24,000gp +3 = 18,000gp x 2 for both fists x 1.5 (incorrect location) = 54,000gp +4 = 32,000gp x 2 for both fists x 1.5 (incorrect location) = 96,000gp +5 = 50,000gp x 2 for both fists x 1.5 (incorrect location) = 150,000gp It wouldn't be too far fetched to actually allow weapon enchantments on amulet or bracers but you should charge as if they are double weapons.
McJarvis 05-07-07, 07:48 PM	It should be noted that the magic item: Amulet of Mighty Fist is based off a weapon already. +1 = 2,000gp x 2 for both fists x 1.5 (incorrect location) = 6,000gp +2 = 8,000gp x 2 for both fists x 1.5 (incorrect location) = 24,000gp +3 = 18,000gp x 2 for both fists x 1.5 (incorrect location) = 54,000gp +4 = 32,000gp x 2 for both fists x 1.5 (incorrect location) = 96,000gp +5 = 50,000gp x 2 for both fists x 1.5 (incorrect location) = 150,000gp It wouldn't be too far fetched to actually allow weapon enchantments on amulet or bracers but you should charge as if they are double weapons. That's a really good catch Mac. Much better than my attempts at pricing, anyway :)
templer10 05-07-07, 07:50 PM	I like him... but i still feel that Wands Shouldn't cost credits when Dorjes (psionic wands) don't.. is Just plain wrong... and now we have Charaters with Augmented Dorjes at no credit cost... Sorry but i think the Elder incharge of the Blackmarket really needs to rethink about the balance between Dorjes (that can hold any power up to level 9 and be augmented at no credit cost) and Wands (that can only hold up to 4th level spells, and if they aren't on a list cost credits ( have yet to see anyone buy an expanded wand of magic missile so don't know if that costs credits also)) Edit=> Honestly.. why should a Wand of Mage Armor [50/50] [750 gp] [5 credits] Dorje: Inertial Armor - Power Level 1 [CL 1] (50) [750gp] Both do the same thing... one costs credits and one don't... go figure the balance and then we have this... Dorja of enlarged energy ray ML2[Aug] 50 charges[00 lbs][1500 gp] 4 different types of energy double ranged, double the normal damage and it costs no credits.. Note that i agree taht dorja's and wands are equal so wands should be WITHOUT credit cost But as it stand i think the reason that dorjas currently dont cost credits is that there is no list in teh SRD for "common dorja's" like wands has and if you limite dorja's to be costing credits no one will use dorja's exept those with credits to burn.
SauroGrenom 05-07-07, 07:54 PM	It should be noted that the magic item: Amulet of Mighty Fist is based off a weapon already. +1 = 2,000gp x 2 for both fists x 1.5 (incorrect location) = 6,000gp +2 = 8,000gp x 2 for both fists x 1.5 (incorrect location) = 24,000gp +3 = 18,000gp x 2 for both fists x 1.5 (incorrect location) = 54,000gp +4 = 32,000gp x 2 for both fists x 1.5 (incorrect location) = 96,000gp +5 = 50,000gp x 2 for both fists x 1.5 (incorrect location) = 150,000gp It wouldn't be too far fetched to actually allow weapon enchantments on amulet or bracers but you should charge as if they are double weapons.I'm sorry, but I don't think this is a very valid way of producing the calculations. The 2 fists thing is a stretch. A monk has one "unarmed strike". That's all. The unarmed strike doesn't count as a double weapon or two separate weapons. Also the item price scheme you propose doesn't take into account that some creatures have 1 or 5 natural attacks. All of which will benefit from the spell effect.
Rauul 05-07-07, 08:04 PM	Note that i agree taht dorja's and wands are equal so wands should be WITHOUT credit cost But as it stand i think the reason that dorjas currently dont cost credits is that there is no list in teh SRD for "common dorja's" like wands has and if you limite dorja's to be costing credits no one will use dorja's exept those with credits to burn. My suggestion has always been to remove the credit cost to wands (unless they are +2 cl of the user) to balance out the wands and dorjas.. Was acually voted on at one time by the elders... then the CAT of the Blackmarket made the call and said it wasn't an elder issue.. I Agree it isn't an elder issue... it's a balance issue.. and it is seriously broken..
Macbrea 05-07-07, 08:08 PM	Technically. the Item is called Amulet of Might Fists. Which represent two fists that are on a humanoid. Since, player character in the phb only ever have two of such items. It isn't too odd to think that they counted it as a double weapon.
templer10 05-07-07, 08:22 PM	can i give an animal companion custom tricks (i.e. - grapple, pin etc) and do custom tricks not mentioned in the "optionl tricks" in the rules of gladius cost credits?
TelinArtho 05-07-07, 09:12 PM	My suggestion has always been to remove the credit cost to wands (unless they are +2 cl of the user) to balance out the wands and dorjas.. Was acually voted on at one time by the elders... then the CAT of the Blackmarket made the call and said it wasn't an elder issue.. I Agree it isn't an elder issue... it's a balance issue.. and it is seriously broken.. If you are going to remember a discussion - it is beneficial to remember the entire conversation. Two of the four elders who spoke were split on the issue. The remaining two abstained until Cat spoke - and after Cat spoke is was a non-issue. That said - being one of the elders that abstained - I can tell you I would've voted to uphold the wand restriction.
TelinArtho 05-07-07, 09:14 PM	can i give an animal companion custom tricks (i.e. - grapple, pin etc) and do custom tricks not mentioned in the "optionl tricks" in the rules of gladius cost credits? Non-standard tricks that are specifically mentioned in the Rules of Gladius or in the Living Tree's list are all available options and no- they do not cost credits. Anything that is not listed in either of those places should get approval from the GM (preferably to be added to an appropriate spot in the rules for reference). This doesn't cost credits - but it still needs approval for consistency and appropriateness.
Rauul 05-07-07, 09:47 PM	If you are going to remember a discussion - it is beneficial to remember the entire conversation. Two of the four elders who spoke were split on the issue. The remaining two abstained until Cat spoke - and after Cat spoke is was a non-issue. That said - being one of the elders that abstained - I can tell you I would've voted to uphold the wand restriction. So your saying there is a Balance between Buying a wand of Spectral hand for 1500 gp and 5 credits and Buying an Expanded augmented Dijore of energy ray with 4 different types of energy for the same 1500 gp ? Show me the balance in this and i will shut up about it...
McJarvis 05-07-07, 09:48 PM	So your saying there is a Balance between Buying a wand of Spectral hand for 1500 gp and 5 credits and Buying an Expanded augmented Dijore of energy ray with 4 different types of energy for the same 1500 gp ? Show me the balance in this and i will shut up about it... Credits don't buy power-> they buy options. That's the balance. They are not meant to represent "more powerful stuff"
NiQil 05-07-07, 10:14 PM	So your saying there is a Balance between Buying a wand of Spectral hand for 1500 gp and 5 credits and Buying an Expanded augmented Dijore of energy ray with 4 different types of energy for the same 1500 gp ? Show me the balance in this and i will shut up about it... So then does that mean that since you want magic and psionics to be equal that we should outlaw any wands of level 0 spells, since we do not have level 0 powers? Or that we outlaw wands of mm (3rd) and mm (5th), since they don't follow the pricing guidelines for dorjes? You can't have it both ways.
SauroGrenom 05-07-07, 10:14 PM	So your saying there is a Balance between Buying a wand of Spectral hand for 1500 gp and 5 credits and Buying an Expanded augmented Dijore of energy ray with 4 different types of energy for the same 1500 gp ? Show me the balance in this and i will shut up about it... The core rules create balance. There are no core rules that require equal access to all items imaginable. The CoCo rules regulate access. You are confusing these two things.
McJarvis 05-07-07, 10:17 PM	The core rules create balance. I still find it difficult to believe that you think that's true. :rolleyes:
templer10 05-07-07, 10:23 PM	I still find it difficult to believe that you think that's true. :rolleyes: rofl tell me about it- every time i encounter those "core is balanced" DM's i play a druid and make my DM cry....
Rauul 05-07-07, 10:28 PM	The core rules create balance. There are no core rules that require equal access to all items imaginable. The CoCo rules regulate access. You are confusing these two things. then since psionics isn't core... good bye... or balance them to be like the core rules... hence why we don't use any of the Complete books in core.. cause they aren't balanced as the original core rules.. Just because it's on the SRD don't make it balanced or right...
McJarvis 05-07-07, 10:38 PM	then since psionics isn't core... good bye... or balance them to be like the core rules... hence why we don't use any of the Complete books in core.. cause they aren't balanced as the original core rules.. Just because it's on the SRD don't make it balanced or right... I'm not sure you know what you're arguing for anymore ;). Methinks you just like to.
Zevox 05-07-07, 10:44 PM	Re: Wands - I still agree with you there Rauul, but lets at least wait until the new Elders are formally inaugurated to rehash that argument, eh? At that point we can actually get a decision made. The core rules create balance. :rofl: I guess I'm just imagining all those problems we've had with things like Polymorph, grappling, and ghosts, not to mention all those spells and powers we've banned (even though most of them aren't even available at the levels that are presently open), eh? Zevox
NiQil 05-07-07, 11:01 PM	Re: Wands - I still agree with you there Rauul, but lets at least wait until the new Elders are formally inaugurated to rehash that argument, eh? At that point we can actually get a decision made. :rofl: I guess I'm just imagining all those problems we've had with things like Polymorph, grappling, and ghosts, not to mention all those spells and powers we've banned (even though most of them aren't even available at the levels that are presently open), eh? Zevox Just like the last time it was discussed....the issue is not an Elder issue. Only the GM can decide what does and does not cost credits. He may want our input on the issue, but ultimately the decisions lies with our illustrious leader. Hence the reason I waited to comment until Cat weighed in last time.
Zevox 05-07-07, 11:08 PM	Just like the last time it was discussed....the issue is not an Elder issue. Only the GM can decide what does and does not cost credits. He may want our input on the issue, but ultimately the decisions lies with our illustrious leader. Hence the reason I waited to comment until Cat weighed in last time. If I recall, last time this was discussed, our present GM was one of the Elders who weighed in as in favor of removing the restriction. Unless Cat's explanation changed his opinion quiet radically (and to be perfectly honest, I'd be shocked if it did), I do think its worth it to resurrect the discussion due to that. Zevox
Macbrea 05-07-07, 11:14 PM	Might I suggest that scrolls not on the list cost credits then? Because for some reason they don't cost credits to scribe whatever level scroll you want and there is a full chart. It makes no sense having a chart for scrolls and not charging but having a chart for wands but do charge.
Zevox 05-07-07, 11:16 PM	Might I suggest that scrolls not on the list cost credits then? Because for some reason they don't cost credits to scribe whatever level scroll you want and there is a full chart. It makes no sense having a chart for scrolls and not charging but having a chart for wands but do charge. Aye, theres that, which Cat never addressed. One more reason I think wands should be unrestricted (and potions/oils, incidentally). Zevox
NiQil 05-07-07, 11:22 PM	If I recall, last time this was discussed, our present GM was one of the Elders who weighed in as in favor of removing the restriction. Unless Cat's explanation changed his opinion quiet radically (and to be perfectly honest, I'd be shocked if it did), I do think its worth it to resurrect the discussion due to that. Zevox Don't get me wrong...I'm not saying that the issue isn't worth discussing...only that no amount of Elder discussion or voting is going to change anything...only the GM can do it. @ Macbrea: Careful what you wish for LOL
Rauul 05-07-07, 11:55 PM	can someone make sure i have the crafting listed correctly on corrupter.. Mainly because i have never crafted before.. so i need to do it once to know if i have it right... Corrupter (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11532929&postcount=1074) Crafting: Robe of Bones 1200,Pearl of Power lvl 2, 2000gp, Pearl of Power lvl 1, 500gp, 2 scrolls of Extended False life 375 gold for a total of 8150/4075
NiQil 05-07-07, 11:57 PM	can someone make sure i have the crafting listed correctly on corrupter.. Mainly because i have never crafted before.. so i need to do it once to know if i have it right... Corrupter (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11532929&postcount=1074) Crafting: Robe of Bones 1200,Pearl of Power lvl 2, 2000gp, Pearl of Power lvl 1, 500gp, 2 scrolls of Extended False life 187.5 gold for a total of 7674/3837 Didn't check your values, but be aware that with the values you have listed, you will be crafting for 2 wks, since the market value is over 7000 gp. So if that is not wanted, you may want to see if you can shave it down some.
Zevox 05-08-07, 12:02 AM	can someone make sure i have the crafting listed correctly on corrupter.. Mainly because i have never crafted before.. so i need to do it once to know if i have it right... Corrupter (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11532929&postcount=1074) Crafting: Robe of Bones 1200,Pearl of Power lvl 2, 2000gp, Pearl of Power lvl 1, 500gp, 2 scrolls of Extended False life 187.5 gold for a total of 7674/3837 Close price-wise. Should actually be a market value of 2400+4000+1000+750=8,150 gp, half that being 4,075 gp. I'd suggest capitalizing the words "full activity" in your title line. It helps make sure that Pitlords notices that its a full activity instead of a free activity. Zevox
hogarth 05-08-07, 12:02 AM	2(spell level)x3(caster level)x2,000(continuous)x2(min/level duration)=24,000gp. Given your concerns of damage-type stacking(indeed-> if you wanted to make this item stackable with others of its type), this price is certainly more reasonable. If you don't agree, I'd like your opinion on what spell would be appropriate to base this on. ((Fireball or Flame Strike, energy substitution'd of course for simplicities sake)) TM just wants extra energy damage on his unarmed attacks a reasonable price. A 4th level power is obviously not reasonable. Let's try to explore this and find something he can use, eh? My thought would have been a command-word item of (Energy Substituted) Produce Flame. A CL 5 item would cost 9,000 gp and would add 1d6+5 damage to your next 5 attacks. Sounds like it would be well worth the money to me! Or maybe a CL 5 item of (Energy Substituted) Shocking Grasp for 5d6 energy damage.
Rauul 05-08-07, 12:05 AM	Close price-wise. Should actually be a market value of 2400+4000+1000+750=8,150 gp, half that being 4,075 gp. I'd suggest capitalizing the words "full activity" in your title line. It helps make sure that Pitlords notices that its a full activity instead of a free activity. Zevox thanks all.. got it.. 2 weeks isn't that much for crafting what he wants :) Now for the next question... does the nimbus bring back my undead mutts that the cleric destroyed... or do i have to make new ones :)
hogarth 05-08-07, 12:07 AM	iam wondering - what would you reccomend for a 6th level feat for a druid with augment summoning- iam conflicted between the obvios natural spell and Psionic hole. My druid Treetall took Psionic Hole (blatantly ripped off from Erithmu's Torel Silvanus). Natural Spell is great for a tabletop game where your druid can stay wild-shaped all day, but I find that having access to scrolls and wands is probably more useful. Do you have Craft Wondrous Item or Scribe Scroll? They make your dollar go farther.
Zevox 05-08-07, 12:07 AM	thanks all.. got it.. 2 weeks isn't that much for crafting what he wants :) Now for the next question... does the nimbus bring back my undead mutts that the cleric destroyed... or do i have to make new ones :) Lacking in RP-sense as it is, it brings them back. Allies aren't discriminated against just because they're undead. Zevox
Rauul 05-08-07, 12:24 AM	Lacking in RP-sense as it is, it brings them back. Allies aren't discriminated against just because they're undead. Zevox Well thats cool it saves me 400 gp to remake the worthless mutts... can't wait till i level to go get me a real Undead... thinking something wierd... next question... Can a level 7 buy a level scroll of a 6th level spell Example: create undead 2,350 gp (would make CA 1 ghoul) And yes i know i would have to use command undead on it to control it (or have My cohort control it)
Zevox 05-08-07, 12:33 AM	next question... Can a level 7 buy a level scroll of a 6th level spell Example: create undead 2,350 gp (would make CA 1 ghoul) And yes i know i would have to use command undead on it to control it (or have My cohort control it) Technically, yep. It costs credits though - one for every CL the spell is above your ECL (so 4 in this case). Zevox
Erithmu 05-08-07, 12:56 AM	My druid Treetall took Psionic Hole (blatantly ripped off from Erithmu's Torel Silvanus). Natural Spell is great for a tabletop game where your druid can stay wild-shaped all day, but I find that having access to scrolls and wands is probably more useful. Do you have Craft Wondrous Item or Scribe Scroll? They make your dollar go farther. Yea ... well the other part of that is that Torel can't take Natural Spell ... he gave up his wildshape to have kicking touch AC. I also haven't gotten much use out of it, maybe 2 fights at lower levels, but I expect it to be very useful against certain psions who are not ready for it. Also the highest ranking druid of TLT doesn't have natural spell either. Then again I think I have only seen her wildshape in maybe 3 fights.
Zevox 05-08-07, 01:06 AM	Psionic Hole really isn't as useful as it at first sounds. Unless you have a good wisdom score, its of minimal use to begin with, and it requires a high con score too. And it only works against powers that target you anyway. Chiefly it'd be useful against those using Ego Whip and Energy Missile, and generally those using the former have plenty of other options and those using the latter probably have area energy powers they could use instead. Natural Spell is strangely unpopular with Druids here. The only ones I know of who have taken it are Elric Flamebrother (just reached the level to take it recently), the retired Uilo, and my retired Destra Stormwind. I know that crafting feats are highly useful for casters here, but even with that I'm at a loss to explain why so few Druids take it. Zevox
NiQil 05-08-07, 01:09 AM	Psionic Hole really isn't as useful as it at first sounds. Unless you have a good wisdom score, its of minimal use to begin with, and it requires a high con score too. And it only works against powers that target you anyway. Chiefly it'd be useful against those using Ego Whip and Energy Missile, and generally those using the former have plenty of other options and those using the latter probably have area energy powers they could use instead. Natural Spell is strangely unpopular with Druids here. The only ones I know of who have taken it are Elric Flamebrother (just reached the level to take it recently), the retired Uilo, and my retired Destra Stormwind. I know that crafting feats are highly useful for casters here, but even with that I'm at a loss to explain why so few Druids take it. Zevox I would be willing to bet it has something to do with the change regarding magic equipment being useless when you change shape....just a guess, though.
Macbrea 05-08-07, 01:16 AM	Don't get me wrong...I'm not saying that the issue isn't worth discussing...only that no amount of Elder discussion or voting is going to change anything...only the GM can do it. @ Macbrea: Careful what you wish for LOL You will notice the number of expendables I am currently using amongst all my characters. Sure, charge 10 credits a special item. I am fine with that.. :P
Rauul 05-08-07, 01:16 AM	Technically, yep. It costs credits though - one for every CL the spell is above your ECL (so 4 in this case). Zevox thanks... next question.. when the charater levels... does the cohort level also or can we deside to Not level the cohort?
MindWandererB 05-08-07, 01:29 AM	Yea ... well the other part of that is that Torel can't take Natural Spell ... he gave up his wildshape to have kicking touch AC. I also haven't gotten much use out of it, maybe 2 fights at lower levels, but I expect it to be very useful against certain psions who are not ready for it. Also the highest ranking druid of TLT doesn't have natural spell either. Then again I think I have only seen her wildshape in maybe 3 fights.Well, Aerryl is more of an archer gish than a traditional caster. So far, she's used Wild Shape only for grappling as a polar bear.Don't get me wrong...I'm not saying that the issue isn't worth discussing...only that no amount of Elder discussion or voting is going to change anything...only the GM can do it.Hey, I'm not Cat. I may have the last word about such things, but I certainly welcome discussion. And I definitely intend to make the wand and scroll rules consistent with each other. But the discussion has to be systematic; I'll add it to the Council to-do list.
Zevox 05-08-07, 01:32 AM	thanks... next question.. when the charater levels... does the cohort level also or can we deside to Not level the cohort? You could just check the rules thread for some things like these, you know. Most are in fairly obvious places... Leadership Allies (Cohorts): The Leadership feat is one of the most common ways to get a cohort. You need to go on a quest to find your Leadership cohort. Note that there are two important differences between Leadership cohorts in the Core Coliseum and the rules written down in the PHB. Firstly, Leadership cohorts do not keep track of XP, and do not use the method of advancement outlined in the PHB. Instead, they are always at the maximum level allowed by your Leadership score (see DMG,p106). For example, if your Leadership score is 17, your cohort would be level 12. You may have your cohort be lower in level than what would be allowed by your Leadership score, if you like; however, you cannot "regress" your cohort in levels. If, for example, your cohort was level 10 at one point, then he may never drop below level 10 from then on. If your Leadership score drops for some reason, and is no longer sufficient for your cohort, then your cohort will not help you in any way until you get your Leadership score back up again. Secondly, Leadership cohorts, like most other cohorts, require a share of your XP and gold (see below). All leadership allies use the 25 pt-buy method to determine ability scores. Zevox
Rauul 05-08-07, 01:47 AM	I'm not Cat. I may have the last word about such things, but I certainly welcome discussion. And I definitely intend to make the wand and scroll rules consistent with each other. But the discussion has to be systematic; I'll add it to the Council to-do list. Well i for one hope you balance them out to be equal to the Psionic versions... if you feel something needs to cost credits.. then I suggest any augmentation to a standard cost the 5 credits.. (metamagic/metapsionic feats added to wands, powerstones, tattoos, scrolls, ect.. )
Rauul 05-08-07, 01:50 AM	You could just check the rules thread for some things like these, you know. Most are in fairly obvious places... Zevox i did read it boss, and it confused the heck out of me.. hence why i ask what you all consider silly questions.. shrugs thanks.. I was just thinking about Not having reaper level when corrupter levels so that he can bring a skeleton in also.. but no big deal.. The robe of bones is cheap and provide the same things without a Quest :)
Zevox 05-08-07, 01:58 AM	i did read it boss, and it confused the heck out of me.. hence why i ask what you all consider silly questions.. shrugs thanks.. I was just thinking about Not having reaper level when corrupter levels so that he can bring a skeleton in also.. but no big deal.. The robe of bones is cheap and provide the same things without a Quest :) "But"? Um, you did notice that the quote I gave said you could have your cohort at a lower level than max if you wish, right? If you decide not to level her, thats just fine. Zevox
hogarth 05-08-07, 06:54 AM	Psionic Hole really isn't as useful as it at first sounds. Unless you have a good wisdom score, its of minimal use to begin with, and it requires a high con score too. And it only works against powers that target you anyway. Well, let's just take a look at which of Istima's powers it would affect: Telekinetic Thrust Telekinetic Maneuver Ego Whip I've noticed that Istima has gotten quite a bit of mileage out of TK Maneuver in particular, not to mention how annoying it can be to get Ego Whipped to death. For druids, having a good wisdom score isn't much of a concern. ;) In a "normal" campaign, I'd agree that it's a fairly useless feat but personally I think that the number of psions in the CoCo combined with the limit on power point usage in a fight makes it useful enough. Natural Spell is strangely unpopular with Druids here. The only ones I know of who have taken it are Elric Flamebrother (just reached the level to take it recently), the retired Uilo, and my retired Destra Stormwind. I know that crafting feats are highly useful for casters here, but even with that I'm at a loss to explain why so few Druids take it. I gave my explanation -- I'd rather be able to use wands and scrolls (and a mount) than move around in animal form for most battles. Even if he wants to wild shape, a druid can precast a variety of spells (Produce Flame, Call Lightning, etc.). I'm sure there will be (or has been) a decent melee druid at some point.
TheMagister 05-08-07, 07:10 AM	My thought would have been a command-word item of (Energy Substituted) Produce Flame. A CL 5 item would cost 9,000 gp and would add 1d6+5 damage to your next 5 attacks. Sounds like it would be well worth the money to me! Or maybe a CL 5 item of (Energy Substituted) Shocking Grasp for 5d6 energy damage. This would be a great idea, except: Rubi already holds a touch spell/power (Hammer), and casting another would cause the first to go away. I would like something more like a weapon enhancement, so that Hammer could still be included in the damage calc. Rubi is a study in how many dice of extra damage can be stacked onto a monk's flurry of blows, so while shocking grasp does indeed deal sweet damage, it just doesn't stick around long enough to "qualify" as being there for the entire flurry. I can only have one touch spell active at a time, so my only other avenue of extra die damage is the weapon enhancement path (and the monk's belt -- which may or may not ever show up...it's pricey). I like Hammer for two reasons: 1) it's psionic; and 2) it's untyped damage and can't be resisted. That's why I'm pushing for psychokinetic. The untyped-ness calls to my inner monk. :)
templer10 05-08-07, 07:52 AM	i went with natural spell in the ends not mainly becuase of 1 thing - it's essently free me from depending on animal companion for flying and give me high manuverability if needed while fighting and eventually invisibility/mirror image defense (at level 8) Also- you can make a nice pretend mirror image this way (by being a dire bat) also something else cute - think - R1 - call lightening, R2- goes around cover, R3- you summon 1d4+1eagles and you are an eagle- you all fly near to each other - it's a living breathing mirror image - you cant tell which 1 calls down the lightening since they all look alike and i can talk to other eagles as an eagle. also- can you even use spellcraft on someone in wildshape to identfy he's casting a spell? it's all animal sounds anyway.
templer10 05-08-07, 07:56 AM	This would be a great idea, except: Rubi already holds a touch spell/power (Hammer), and casting another would cause the first to go away. I would like something more like a weapon enhancement, so that Hammer could still be included in the damage calc. Rubi is a study in how many dice of extra damage can be stacked onto a monk's flurry of blows, so while shocking grasp does indeed deal sweet damage, it just doesn't stick around long enough to "qualify" as being there for the entire flurry. I can only have one touch spell active at a time, so my only other avenue of extra die damage is the weapon enhancement path (and the monk's belt -- which may or may not ever show up...it's pricey). I like Hammer for two reasons: 1) it's psionic; and 2) it's untyped damage and can't be resisted. That's why I'm pushing for psychokinetic. The untyped-ness calls to my inner monk. :) i dont remmber how it's going now with natural weapon + Flurry but if it's possible - what about Claws of the beast- decent damage when augmented and last a LONG time.
McJarvis 05-08-07, 08:25 AM	I was running over the numbers & ave damages in my head on the way to work this morning. Is it just me or is it ALWAYS worth it to full-power attack? Damage differences for each power attack incriment: (extra +1 to hit delivers, on average, (1/20 * "normal damage") more damage.) Regular: +(1/20)*(Normal Average Damage) Power Attack: 2 In order for them to equal: NAD/20 = 2 NAD = 40 For every extra "level" of power attack: (NAD+2)/20=2 NAD+2=40 NAD=38 So you're "Normal Average Damage" would have to get over 40, or reach that with power attack. At level 10 you'd need normal average damage of 20+ still?(sans power attack) Of course, all of this ignores crits, which will likely affect things greatly...though at level 10 power attack is effectively doubling your damage with every hit, if you're using it.
Hirumajoe 05-08-07, 08:52 AM	If I find that one of my wizard characters doesn't have sufficient Spellcraft to take 10 to learn the spells that he currently has, can I simply move skill points from another skill into the Spellcraft skill or do I need to make a post in the prison or training hall of gladius before doing so? Thanks. Edit: In regards to guild rules, can you process resources you generated the same week, or do they need to already be in storage. I.e. if you have 900 points in storage and generate 100 this week, can you process at most 900 or 1,000?
templer10 05-08-07, 09:09 AM	I was running over the numbers & ave damages in my head on the way to work this morning. Is it just me or is it ALWAYS worth it to full-power attack? Damage differences for each power attack incriment: (extra +1 to hit delivers, on average, (1/20 * "normal damage") more damage.) Regular: +(1/20)*(Normal Average Damage) Power Attack: 2 In order for them to equal: NAD/20 = 2 NAD = 40 For every extra "level" of power attack: (NAD+2)/20=2 NAD+2=40 NAD=38 So you're "Normal Average Damage" would have to get over 40, or reach that with power attack. At level 10 you'd need normal average damage of 20+ still?(sans power attack) Of course, all of this ignores crits, which will likely affect things greatly...though at level 10 power attack is effectively doubling your damage with every hit, if you're using it. it might have been true what you are saying if every combatent had 500 or so HP so the statistical curve of hit/miss with blows had time to adjust itself but since fighters dont have a lot of HP generaly - it's usually a lot better to hit often then to hit hard. (and there are ways to hit often AND hard).
hogarth 05-08-07, 09:10 AM	This would be a great idea, except: Rubi already holds a touch spell/power (Hammer), and casting another would cause the first to go away. Produce Flame would work just fine -- you don't need to "hold the touch" with it, so you can prebuff with it (it lasts several minutes) and then use Hammer as need be later on.
McJarvis 05-08-07, 09:13 AM	it might have been true what you are saying if every combatent had 500 or so HP so the statistical curve of hit/miss with blows had time to adjust itself but since fighters dont have a lot of HP generaly - it's usually a lot better to hit often then to hit hard. (and there are ways to hit often AND hard). I was assuming long term because over the course of a gladiators career he takes many swings/deals much damage :)
Hirumajoe 05-08-07, 09:19 AM	Damage differences for each power attack incriment: (extra +1 to hit delivers, on average, (1/20 * "normal damage") more damage.) This assumption is actually incorrect. If you need a 19-20 to hit, a +1 to hit provides a 50% increase in damage, not a 5%. If you need a 11-20 hit, a +1 to hit provides a 10% increase in damage. You only reach 5.55% if you need 3-20 to hit before hand, while if you need 2-20 to hit its a 0% increase. Interestingly, I was running some matlab code the other day to work out which is better, +1 to hit/+1 to damage enhancement or +1d6 elemental damage. Which is highly dependant on your base damage without said enhancements. I don't have the exact results in front of me, but its something like if you have a weapon dealing 11.5 damage on average (1d8+7 say) you're better off with the +1 to hit/+1 to damage instead of a 1d6 elemental damage bonus in the 12-20 to hit range. I could easily work out a similar graph for +1 to hit versus +1 to damage. Of course, the question to ask yourself, what % of the time are you in that sweet spot and not either over killing with to-hit or needing 20s anyways... Although if you do have power attack, then its virtually always better to take the straight enhancement rather than an elemental damage increase since you can convert to hit to damage such that you're in the sweet spot.
hogarth 05-08-07, 09:25 AM	McJarvis -- let's take an example. Joe the 5th level fighter does 10 damage on average and has a 50% chance to hit. Normal attack -- 10 * 50% = 5 damage on average Power attack for 5 -- 20 * 25% = 5 damage on average What university did you get your math degree from again? :D
McJarvis 05-08-07, 09:40 AM	Blame MWB. I think I was refering to something he said a few months ago about each +1 always representing a 1/20th better chance to hit. All that aside-> as mentioned, I was thinking about it for about five minutes in the car this morning ;)
McJarvis 05-08-07, 09:44 AM	Of course, the question to ask yourself, what % of the time are you in that sweet spot and not either over killing with to-hit or needing 20s anyways... Although if you do have power attack, then its virtually always better to take the straight enhancement rather than an elemental damage increase since you can convert to hit to damage such that you're in the sweet spot. That's more or less what led me into this line of thinking. The thought of a +1 Flaming amulet of mighty fists being more potent than a +2 Amulet of Mighty fists on something with a large number of attacks like a hydra seemed retarded to me. Especially given how easy it is to boost your base damage on the critter using other means, getting high enough to cause the +enhancement bonus to be better just seemed too easy. This is what I get for doing math in my car while listening to a radio station play "beat the toaster". :twitch:
Yitzi 05-08-07, 09:50 AM	Although if you do have power attack, then its virtually always better to take the straight enhancement rather than an elemental damage increase since you can convert to hit to damage such that you're in the sweet spot. Except then the enhancement only gives you +2 damage (+1 damage, +1 compensating for power attack), whereas the elemental damage gives you +3.5 on average.
Macbrea 05-08-07, 09:53 AM	And actually more important on horgath's example: To hit Per Damage Average Normal 10 50% 10 5 Power 1 11 45% 12 5.4 Power 2 12 40% 14 5.6 Power 3 13 35% 16 5.6 Power 4 14 30% 18 5.4 Power 5 15 25% 20 5
McJarvis 05-08-07, 09:53 AM	Except then the enhancement only gives you +2 damage (+1 damage, +1 compensating for power attack), whereas the elemental damage gives you +3.5 on average. Every power attacking build I've seen has used a two-handed weapon. 2(powerattack)+1(damage)=3, which is only a little below the flaming/icey/whatever enhancement. On top of that this is merely an option. In general I don't think I've ever used the flaming/etc enhancements at tabletop game because of their general weakness. My "typical" sword is a spell storing straight-ticket enhancement sword. (or I'll add on Wounding when I get high enough in level, because I loved the Butcher in Diablo.)
templer10 05-08-07, 09:57 AM	errm - question - if you started to cast a 1 round casting time spell then next round just before you complte teh spell you get grappled - do you lose the spell since in grapple you can only cast spells taking standart action?
Hirumajoe 05-08-07, 09:59 AM	Except then the enhancement only gives you +2 damage (+1 damage, +1 compensating for power attack), whereas the elemental damage gives you +3.5 on average. This is true. When you're converting with power attack, its going to be strictly worse than if you took the 1d6 damage enhancement. (Although two handed its only +3 versus +3.5). It still might be better to make the power attack at that moment with that particular weapon you have in hand though. What power attack lets you do is find the sweet spot between to hit and damage where you maximize your damage over time with a particular weapon and opponent's AC. (Assuming you know that AC...) Basically, with sufficient base damage (a +1 Greatsword and 18 Strength does it) and needing 12-20 to hit, you're better off with +1 to hit/+1 to damage. Admittedly, +3.5 damage does better in the 1-11 range, but with power attack you can simulate that and do better than you would have done (but still not as good as the +3.5). Basically, with power attack and straight enhancement its better in some cases and almost as good in others. Also, don't forget Power Attack gets multiplied by crits. :)
TelinArtho 05-08-07, 10:31 AM	errm - question - if you started to cast a 1 round casting time spell then next round just before you complte teh spell you get grappled - do you lose the spell since in grapple you can only cast spells taking standart action? Was the spell started with a full round action or a standard action? The reason I ask - is if a caster starts to perform a full-round action (like a 1-round casting time spell) with a standard action, he only has to take a standard action on the following round to finish it. So - it would seem to me that as long as he makes the concentration check - he should be okay. In the case of using the full round action, he doesn't have to finish anything on his following action, so it still seems to me that as long as he makes the concentration check, he should be okay.
templer10 05-08-07, 10:44 AM	Was the spell started with a full round action or a standard action? The reason I ask - is if a caster starts to perform a full-round action (like a 1-round casting time spell) with a standard action, he only has to take a standard action on the following round to finish it. So - it would seem to me that as long as he makes the concentration check - he should be okay. In the case of using the full round action, he doesn't have to finish anything on his following action, so it still seems to me that as long as he makes the concentration check, he should be okay. the thing is - the spell is 1 round casting time - so at least part of the spell is casted in the following round - so it seems to land in the casting in grapple - but at the very least you need to make the harder concetration check of casting in grapple (20+SL).
TelinArtho 05-08-07, 10:50 AM	Right - but what I'm saying is that if Darrgon had started the casting with a standard action the round before - all that would be left is a standard action on the following round. However, since he cast the spell with a full round action, all he needs to do is maintain the concentration once the grapple is started (and make the concentration for the damage he takes).
templer10 05-08-07, 10:57 AM	Right - but what I'm saying is that if Darrgon had started the casting with a standard action the round before - all that would be left is a standard action on the following round. However, since he cast the spell with a full round action, all he needs to do is maintain the concentration once the grapple is started (and make the concentration for the damage he takes). he made 21 on that concetration check- he needed by that 22- (20+2) but even if he didnt - that summon even if it hitted and critted wouldnt have been able to kill dunerunner in 1 round so the whole thing is kind of moot.
TelinArtho 05-08-07, 11:01 AM	Right - I just looked over the fight now. I did want to iron out the issue for the future however. Amazingly enough with all of my summoners that I've had - this is the first time it has come up (let's see 1... 2... 3... 4... 5... 6... 7 - yup - 7 summoners. And that doesn't include Faelto (Druid/Wizard) or Zax (Druid)...
Zevox 05-08-07, 11:14 AM	Well, let's just take a look at which of Istima's powers it would affect: Telekinetic Thrust Telekinetic Maneuver Ego Whip I've noticed that Istima has gotten quite a bit of mileage out of TK Maneuver in particular, not to mention how annoying it can be to get Ego Whipped to death. For druids, having a good wisdom score isn't much of a concern. ;) In a "normal" campaign, I'd agree that it's a fairly useless feat but personally I think that the number of psions in the CoCo combined with the limit on power point usage in a fight makes it useful enough. Actually, Istima hasn't gotten much usage out of TK Manuever at all. Hes used it in one fight (vs Relanex) and once on the campaign - thats it. Its chiefly an anti-wizard/sorcerer power, really. It can take advantage of their low grapple mod and inability to cast in a grapple without the spell having no somatic components and still leave him able to blast them. And with TK Thrust, he usually won't use it on a character himself anyway (I don't think any Psions do, really). He'll usually toss things at his foe. Or if they happen to be in the temple, he may try to toss them into the lava, but with a Druid thats much easier accomplished by targeting their mount than them. As for Ego Whip, I don't like using that to begin with, so no skin off my nose if I have extra incentive not to. And as I said, most Psions (Istima included) have more than enough other options that it won't kill them to not have it as a good option. Zevox
hogarth 05-08-07, 11:22 AM	As for Ego Whip, I don't like using that to begin with, so no skin off my nose if I have extra incentive not to. I can tell you don't like it by the way you used in two of your last three arena battles (vs. Valen Sky and Monsieur Hood). Actions speak louder than words, my friend... ;)
Zevox 05-08-07, 11:33 AM	I can tell you don't like it by the way you used in two of your last three arena battles (vs. Valen Sky and Monsieur Hood). Actions speak louder than words, my friend... ;) I used it vs Valen in order to make that battle quick and easy on the Pitlord. Those two had been stuck in a fight against each other for three weeks before that, nobody had ever run a single round of it, and even with that the tactics had sparked enough controversy that it was obvious if it were ever run it would be a difficult, long one. I wanted to avoid that this time around, and that was the best way I could think of to do so. As for Hood, if you can think of another plausible way to win an FFA with him involved, let me know. His reflex and fortitude saves are too high for energy bolts to bring him down in time. With his mount, his touch AC can get up to 19 (20 with defensive precognition or animal affinity dex), giving me an almost 50/50 chance to miss with crystal shard or energy ray (or energy push). The TK powers wouldn't be of much use. It was basically use that or lose, which is precisely the type of situation Istima has the power for. Zevox
McJarvis 05-08-07, 12:16 PM	Hmm...now that I think of it, I was right on my premise mathematically speaking(1/20 is a factor, not the relative to-hit), but I was wrong on my assumptions of the shape of the formula in question. Interesting. I'm going to keep working on this. I think once I get my equations set up I'll be able to do some quick first semester calc to solve the Power-attack dilemma for any given situation.
TheMagister 05-08-07, 01:18 PM	Hmm...now that I think of it, I was right on my premise mathematically speaking(1/20 is a factor, not the relative to-hit), but I was wrong on my assumptions of the shape of the formula in question. Interesting. I'm going to keep working on this. I think once I get my equations set up I'll be able to do some quick first semester calc to solve the Power-attack dilemma for any given situation. And then build a character around it and watch the dice render all your math completely fruitless. :mad:
McJarvis 05-08-07, 01:33 PM	And then build a character around it and watch the dice render all your math completely fruitless. :mad: :( So much for my Half-Orc Paragon 2/Wolf totem Whirling frenzy barbarian X idea....
TheMagister 05-08-07, 01:41 PM	The dice of fate mock your pitiful attempt to control your character's destiny via equations and formulae. :emp:
Malither76 05-08-07, 01:50 PM	ok the time roll does that come off the characters prebuff before the fight like this week was 2 hours and Relanex had less than that on his stoneskin so does he not have stoneskin then?
TheMagister 05-08-07, 01:59 PM	Pre-Buffs and the Time Roll When your character casts a spell with a long duration, there is a chance that it lasts long enough to be available in more than one encounter. However, at the time of casting, you don't know when your next battle will occur. In the CoCo, we simulate this with a Time Roll. The Time Roll is a 1d6 roll made by the Pairingsmaker that determines how many hours have passed before your next fight begins. This time will be deducted from all prebuffed spells; if their duration exceeds the result of the Time Roll, they are available at the beginning of the fight. The Time Roll will be listed along with the pairings. Varia is a level 4 wizard with 10 Spell-Levels available per fight. She is at the beginning of a new 3-Fight-Cycle. Prebuffing: Before her first fight, Varia prebuffs with an 8 hour extended mage armor and a 4 hour False Life. She lists these in her Prefight Actions section on her sheet along with the Spell Levels she used up. The Extended Mage Armor used up 2 SL and False Life also 2 SL, leaving her with 6 SL for her next fight. She also strikethroughs Ext.Mage Armor and False life. Time Roll: The Pairingsmaker sets her fight beginning 3 hours after she cast the prebuff spells so both prebuffs are still running (8-3=5 and 4-3=1). The Fight: During the fight, Varia cast a darkness spell with a 2 hour duration from a scroll, Invisibility (4 min), Magic Missile (Instantaneous) and extended Alter Self (80 min). In the fight summary (at the end of the fight), the pitlord writes down the running spells incl their duration: mage armor (5 hours), false life (1 hour), alter self (80 min). Although invisibility is still running, its duration is too short to carry over to the next fight (1 hour is minimum) and although darkness has a longer duration, it affects the arena so it cannot be prebuffed with. PS: Since False Life can also run out if the hitpoints are gone, the Pitlord also adds the hp it has left into the summary. Prebuffing: A new week begins. Varia now lists these three spells that way under her prebuffs for her 2nd fight. She has already spent the SL during or before the previous fights so she need not pay for them again. Varia also chooses to add Protection from arrows (4 hours) to her prebuff list which is deducted from her available Spell Levels for her next fight (2 SL) and she strikes that spell through on her memorize list. Time Roll: The time roll before the 2nd fight (listed in the pairings) is a 1, so only 1 hour has passed. That means Mage armor, Alter Self and Protection from Arrows are available; only False life has run out because it had only 1 hour left. That oughta do ya.
TheMagister 05-08-07, 02:02 PM	As for Hood, if you can think of another plausible way to win an FFA with him involved, let me know. Zevox Copy that PM of info to me, too. I'm currently trying to plug up the "sniper" weakness (with little success). TM
McJarvis 05-08-07, 02:30 PM	Voila. Every time you roll a d20, you can determine a EDV(Estimated Damage Value) from the roll. It is determined by: (1/20)*(damage)+(1/20)*(damage)+.....etc, etc. Your damage does not vary depending on which die is rolled(unless we start taking into account critical hits, which I very well could do with proper time on non-work hours ;) ) Thus, there are four things that can happen: Auto hit(20) Auto miss(1) Hit(A range of non-20 or 1 values) Miss(A range of non-20 or 1 values) We'll label the # of non-auto hits that you can make as A, and the # of non-auto misses you can make as B. D, of course, represents your average damage. Your EDV for any particular attack, therefore, is EDV=(1/20)(D)+(1/20).... EDV=(1/20)*[(D)+A*(D)] For power attack, the calculation changes a bit. We'll throw "X" in there for the variable amount we might subtract from our attack roll. PEDV=(1/20)*[(D+2*X)+A*(D+2*X)-X*(D+2*X)] To find the "sweet spot" for power attack, we merely subtract and differentiate: PEDV-EDV=(1/20)*[2*X+2*A*X-X*D-2*X2] Differentiate with respect to X: [PEDV-EDV]'(X)=(1/20)*[2+2*A-D-4*X] Solve for 0: 0=(1/20)*[2+2*A-D-4*X] 4X+D=2+2A And there you go. For Hogarth's example of a warrior who has a 50/50 shot of dealing 10 damage: D=10 A=9 (50/50, #'s 11->19, because A can not include a natural 20) 4X+(10)=2+2(9) 4X+10=20 4X=10 X=2.5 And Macbrea's solution verifies that the premium damage output for this scenerio is between 2 and 3. This is useful information because it tells us that power attack is more useful when you don't have a large damage output in the first place (!) or have a large number of #'s that will allow you to hit. Is it strange that I likely wouldn't have bothered with this if Hogarth hadn't questioned my math-license? ;) edit-> You know, I think that's the first time I've ever had to use calculus for D&D. That was kind of cool.
Hirumajoe 05-08-07, 03:12 PM	Out of curiosity, does closing your eyes while attacking with touchsight buffed effectively negate Mirror Image with no penalty? (assuming the target is within the touchsight range.)
Zevox 05-08-07, 03:13 PM	Out of curiosity, does closing your eyes while attacking with touchsight buffed effectively negate Mirror Image with no penalty? (assuming the target is within the touchsight range.) Basically, yep. Zevox
Hirumajoe 05-08-07, 03:16 PM	Basically, yep. Zevox But if you don't close your eyes, it doesn't do anything. I'm feeling very foolish at the moment, sigh.
McJarvis 05-08-07, 03:20 PM	Actually, we have still have no elder ruling dictating this: so closing your eyes should do nothing against the mirror image in this situation.
Hirumajoe 05-08-07, 03:32 PM	Actually, we have still have no elder ruling dictating this: so closing your eyes should do nothing against the mirror image in this situation. Oh. I think I missed the original argument. I'm just noting when you're blind (closed eyes) you ignore the mirror image figments. Then you use touchsight to pinpoint and negate the total concealment. After you're done, you open your eyes. Or are you saying touchsight somehow pinpoints the character and the images and thus you don't know which square? Or am I missing something else?
MindWandererB 05-08-07, 03:35 PM	Actually, we have still have no elder ruling dictating this: so closing your eyes should do nothing against the mirror image in this situation. <Groan> I could has sworn we decided that he had ruled that Touchsight basically defeated Mirror Image. But apparently not, since it's not in the Decisions. This needs to go back to the Courtroom... again....
McJarvis 05-08-07, 03:36 PM	Oh. I think I missed the original argument. I'm just noting when you're blind (closed eyes) you ignore the mirror image figments. Then you use touchsight to pinpoint and negate the total concealment. After you're done, you open your eyes. Or are you saying touchsight somehow pinpoints the character and the images and thus you don't know which square? Or am I missing something else? I wasn't fully paying attention to what you guys were talking about. MWB is correct, though. Touchsight+closing eyes = no mirror image by rules. [closing eyes gets rid of images, touchsight allows you to pinpoint] Touchsight = no mirror image by intended rules, 1 out of 1 game masters agree! Unfortunately touchsight doesn't negate figments or whatever mirror image is by the rules....
TelinArtho 05-08-07, 03:37 PM	Hmm - with all of this discussion - there's the distinct possibility I'm in error here. If touchsight does defeat the mirror image - that would certainly change the fight a bit.
Hirumajoe 05-08-07, 03:44 PM	Hmm - with all of this discussion - there's the distinct possibility I'm in error here. If touchsight does defeat the mirror image - that would certainly change the fight a bit. That depends on if you want to play Valen intelligently or not. As it stands, I didn't include a clause to close his eyes in the case of Mirror Images because I thought, incorrectly, that touchsight simply being up negates them. However, it definitely negates them if Valen closes his eyes. I don't think anyone disagrees with that. Its purely an omission on my part. However, its techinically the smart thing to do with absolutely no negative reprecussions on Valen. (Like kindly letting Valen dodge when I forget to indicate his dodge partner).
TelinArtho 05-08-07, 03:52 PM	I don't think it is out of the realm of reasonable. Looking things over, I realized I forgot about the amulet, so the AC is a little bit higher. In round 9, you score a hit (29), but the 2 24s in round 10 are misses. So all in all - it nets you one additional hit. Damage: 6. Okay - so 6 damage in round 9, another 6 in round 13, and 9 damage in round 14.
Hirumajoe 05-08-07, 04:13 PM	I don't think it is out of the realm of reasonable. Looking things over, I realized I forgot about the amulet, so the AC is a little bit higher. In round 9, you score a hit (29), but the 2 24s in round 10 are misses. So all in all - it nets you one additional hit. Damage: 6. Okay - so 6 damage in round 9, another 6 in round 13, and 9 damage in round 14. I'd argue that Cloakers don't actually have necks, since as pointed out by Hogarth they're flying Manta Rays, but that just means you would have spent gold on a ring of protection +1 and potion of Barkskin with the same net effect. :) And all I'd be doing is delaying the inevitable until another Cloaker got close enough to force the natural 1 saving throw. So, thanks for the run and corrections.
Hirumajoe 05-08-07, 04:23 PM	I would like to craft a large sized Deepcrystal Composite Longbow (Mighty +8) for Valen Sky. How much does this cost? [1000 (Deepcrystal) + 100 x 2 (Large Composite bow) + 800 (Mighty 8)] / 2 (Crafted) = 1000 gp?
TelinArtho 05-08-07, 04:25 PM	100 base + 800 (str rating) + 700 (deepcrystal minus the masterwork component) = 1600gp x 2 (large size) = 3200 + 300 (Ma component) = 3500gp. Craft: 1750gp. Note that you need Craft +21 for this (DC to craft a strength bow is 15 + 2* Str rating)
Hirumajoe 05-08-07, 04:34 PM	100 base + 800 (str rating) + 700 (deepcrystal minus the masterwork component) = 1600gp x 2 (large size) = 3200 + 300 (Ma component) = 3500gp. Craft: 1750gp. Note that you need Craft +21 for this (DC to craft a strength bow is 15 + 2* Str rating) Woops. Valen only has +12 Craft at the moment, not even enough for Mighty +4... That puts a slight crimp in my plans... Out of curiosity, many credits would a +1 craft skill item cost?
TelinArtho 05-08-07, 04:39 PM	Like other skill boost items it would be 5 credits (based on an item in the SRD).
TelinArtho 05-08-07, 04:52 PM	I am looking for some ideas for Bulgar. This upcoming quest is going to be extremely difficult - not only is this the first of many large dragons, this one is capable of dealing 4d10 damage with the breath weapon versus my pittly Resist 10, and is a pretty big powerhouse in melee. And this doesn't even breach the items that it might have to help it. I have 6kgp to work with. Things I am considering: Gloves of Dexterity +2 - this will help his ranged attack bonus and his reflex save - but not his AC due to his armor. Cloak of Resistance +1 or +2 - helpful - but doesn't stack with easily castable Resistance nor does it stack with his resistance ability from the protection domain. Cloak of Sacred Resistance +1 - more expensive to help with the saves - but at least it stacks with everything I've got. +1 on Guisarme - not a particularly big change - but it opens up adding a more important enhancement later on. Also helps a little in resisting sunders or other item-destroying things I might encounter in a full quest (like the Azer in his first quest...) +2 on armor or shield (they are already +1) - again - not a big change - but every little bit does help some. Selling my current armor and crafting a new set in mithril is an option and then that would go well with the gloves - but then I don't have enough cash on hand for all of that... Anyway - looking for some solid ideas (preferably not with scrolls and such, but I'll take anything as long as it is not psionic...)
McJarvis 05-08-07, 04:54 PM	Like other skill boost items it would be 5 credits (based on an item in the SRD). Only if the skill in question has an existing boost item itself. UMD skill boost items, for instance, are 10 creds. [I don't recall if there is a crafting one]
Salrantol 05-08-07, 04:56 PM	When one miniquests for a corpse to animate as an undead minion in the 3rd fight of the 3FC, does one have to: a) Already have animate dead prepared, to cast on the corpse when obtained or b) Prebuff animate dead in the next fight or c) Just assume it's done in a day between the last fight of this cycle and the first fight of the next.
TelinArtho 05-08-07, 04:59 PM	When one miniquests for a corpse to animate as an undead minion in the 3rd fight of the 3FC, does one have to: a) Already have animate dead prepared, to cast on the corpse when obtained or b) Prebuff animate dead in the next fight or c) Just assume it's done in a day between the last fight of this cycle and the first fight of the next. c @Guildlords/Zevox - noticed in the guild hall thread that CEF has believers in the wrong district - it should be Arkhein.
Zevox 05-08-07, 05:04 PM	When one miniquests for a corpse to animate as an undead minion in the 3rd fight of the 3FC, does one have to: a) Already have animate dead prepared, to cast on the corpse when obtained or b) Prebuff animate dead in the next fight or c) Just assume it's done in a day between the last fight of this cycle and the first fight of the next. The third is correct. The miniquest gets you the corpse. You can animate it at your leisure. Zevox
Guildlords 05-08-07, 05:09 PM	@Guildlords/Zevox - noticed in the guild hall thread that CEF has believers in the wrong district - it should be Arkhein. Woops :embarrass . Fixed.
TelinArtho 05-08-07, 05:41 PM	Okay - so as far as I can tell, this is the breakdown of the weeks (best I can do with the experience breakdown). The campaign is listed at 24 weeks, but the experience list only lists 1-18 - not sure what to do with that... Kracknol weeks 3-18 = 16 weeks Telveren weeks 1-18 = 18 weeks Ignatius weeks 7-18 = 12 weeks Eraca weeks 16-18 = 3 weeks Barthleby weeks 1-16 = 16 weeks Luken weeks 1-16 = 16 weeks Morgan weeks 1-6 = 6 weeks For CEF purposes, Telveren, Barthleby, Luken and Morgan were sent with CAPs. Solan was also listed in the CAP, but I didn't see any mention of him in the campaign log. This means that there's 18+16+16+6=56 character-weeks with an ECL9-10 group. How do I work this out for the trade or armies? @MWB - can I wait to set up the trade with the foreign nation for a few weeks until I have a means to process TRA-PTS? First of all, remember that the armies are conscripts, and as such are useful for defense only. Assuming that log is correct (and I don't have anything better to go by), you'd get 3 weeks at 700/week, 3 weeks at 600/week, 6 weeks at 500/week, 4 weeks at 200/week, and 2 weeks at 100/week (assuming all characters were ECL 10). Same logic would go for the conscipts: they'd leave progressively as each character ran out of "credit," as it were. I'm not sure what to do about the missing 6 weeks, which probably included Solan. As for the processing, let me hear from Cat first to see if you even need the processing. If you do, you can definitely hold off for a while. Okay - to finalize this up, I need to figure out exactly where people leveled. Again, I'm using the campaign log to figure this all out: Telveren - 1-18 - ECL10 all the way through Barthleby - 1-16 - ECL10 all the way through Luken - 1-16 - ECL10 all the way through Morgan - 1-6 - ECL9 for his duration. If I did conscripts, I'd be getting 39 regiments (10*3 + 9*1) for the first 6 weeks; 30 regiments for the next 10 weeks and 10 regiments for the last 2. If I did a trade agreement, I'd be looking at 390 guild points for the first 6 weeks, 300 for the next 10, and 100 for the last 2. Is this all correct? For the trade agreement, since I have perfect deal, I get to double these amounts (780, 600, 200 respectively)? And I don't need to use up the few trade points I have right?
TheMagister 05-08-07, 06:22 PM	{Listens raptly, because this concerns WAR too}
MindWandererB 05-08-07, 06:31 PM	For the trade agreement, since I have perfect deal, I get to double these amounts (780, 600, 200 respectively)? And I don't need to use up the few trade points I have right?It looks correct as far as I can tell, except for this last part. Perfect Deal doubles the duration, not the value, so you'd get 390 guild points for the first 12 weeks, 300 for the next 20, and 100 for the final 4.
Usurpator 05-08-07, 06:44 PM	Hello, How is everyone? It seems a lot has happened in the last 6 months I haven't been here, including the Iron Man Tournament! Could someone give me a brief summary of the most important events and/or changes?
Rauul 05-08-07, 06:57 PM	I am looking to advance Corrupter soonish.. and was wondering since i had bought so many spells i still get the 2 4th level spells for free correct? and i need to know what it costs to put a level 3 spell in a normal spellbook (my blessed book is full)
MindWandererB 05-08-07, 07:08 PM	Hello, How is everyone? It seems a lot has happened in the last 6 months I haven't been here, including the Iron Man Tournament! Could someone give me a brief summary of the most important events and/or changes? Usurpator! Good to see you! Well, the biggest news, if you haven't noticed yet, is that Cat has stepped aside as GM. Other than that, the IMT, and some minor rule changes, there hasn't really been much. You were here for the most recent major changes--the 3FC, the expendable cap, and the random maps--and we won't be making any more such until the IMT is concluded. (I should mention: one of the higher priorities is to add random map conditions, such as lighting and weather, and seeing as how you're hosting one of the pairingsmakers, your return at this time could be quite serendipitous....)
Zevox 05-08-07, 07:17 PM	I am looking to advance Corrupter soonish.. and was wondering since i had bought so many spells i still get the 2 4th level spells for free correct? and i need to know what it costs to put a level 3 spell in a normal spellbook (my blessed book is full) Of course you still get 2 free spells. You always do when you level up. Incidentally, they don't have to be at the highest level you can cast - if you want a lower level one more, you can pick that instead. Well, scribing the spell would cost you 450 gp (150 gp for using an NPC's spellbook to get the spell, 300 for materials to scribe it), but I find it hard to believe you filled up a 1,000 page book at your level. You sure you didn't make the mistake of thinking that thing had only 100 pages? Zevox
Rauul 05-08-07, 07:20 PM	Of course you still get 2 free spells. You always do when you level up. Incidentally, they don't have to be at the highest level you can cast - if you want a lower level one more, you can pick that instead. Well, scribing the spell would cost you 450 gp (150 gp for using an NPC's spellbook to get the spell, 300 for materials to scribe it), but I find it hard to believe you filled up a 1,000 page book at your level. You sure you didn't make the mistake of thinking that thing had only 100 pages? Zevox i thought i read a blessed book can only hold 45 spells... well if thats not the case i can get the spell doe 150gp+100 gp correct?
Zevox 05-08-07, 07:37 PM	i thought i read a blessed book can only hold 45 spells... well if thats not the case i can get the spell doe 150gp+100 gp correct? Nope, its 1,000 pages, however many spells that happens to hold for you. And the cost is just 150 gp for the NPC service. Theres no material cost for a blessed book (thats kinda the whole point of having one). Zevox
Yitzi 05-08-07, 08:11 PM	A few questions: 1. The duelist class abilty "elaborate parry" says "At 7th level and higher, if a duelist chooses to fight defensively or use total defense in melee combat, she gains an additional +1 dodge bonus to AC for each level of duelist she has." What does it mean "in melee combat"? Does it mean the bonus only applies when defending against melee weapons? When wielding a melee weapon? Something else? 2. If someone has classes in both an arcane casting class and a divine casting class, can they cast arcane spells opposed to their alignment? (I think this was discussed, but I forget the result) 3. Does the deflect arrows feat deflect the first arrow in the round shot at the target, or the first that would otherwise hit?
Zevox 05-08-07, 08:16 PM	1. The duelist class abilty "elaborate parry" says "At 7th level and higher, if a duelist chooses to fight defensively or use total defense in melee combat, she gains an additional +1 dodge bonus to AC for each level of duelist she has." What does it mean "in melee combat"? Does it mean the bonus only applies when defending against melee weapons? When wielding a melee weapon? Something else? My guess would be that it applies when he fights defensively when making a melee attack. You can fight defensively (take -4 attack for +2/3 dodge AC) with either melee or ranged attacks, but this feature only kicks in when using melee ones. 2. If someone has classes in both an arcane casting class and a divine casting class, can they cast arcane spells opposed to their alignment? (I think this was discussed, but I forget the result) It was, recently too, but I forget the result as well. Personally, I think they should be able to, but I know Telin at least thought otherwise. 3. Does the deflect arrows feat deflect the first arrow in the round shot at the target, or the first that would otherwise hit? The first that would hit. The feat specifically says such. Zevox
Rauul 05-08-07, 08:27 PM	Nope, its 1,000 pages, however many spells that happens to hold for you. And the cost is just 150 gp for the NPC service. Theres no material cost for a blessed book (thats kinda the whole point of having one). Zevox so it's 50 gp per spell level for Npc services? when scribing a spell into your book? (think i need to redo the math on corrupter's purchused spells)
Zevox 05-08-07, 08:32 PM	so it's 50 gp per spell level for Npc services? when scribing a spell into your book? (think i need to redo the math on corrupter's purchused spells) Correct. Zevox
Yitzi 05-08-07, 08:41 PM	My guess would be that it applies when he fights defensively when making a melee attack. You can fight defensively (take -4 attack for +2/3 dodge AC) with either melee or ranged attacks, but this feature only kicks in when using melee ones. What if he takes total defense while wielding a ranged weapon? It was, recently too, but I forget the result as well. Personally, I think they should be able to, but I know Telin at least thought otherwise. Anybody else know?
hogarth 05-08-07, 09:17 PM	2. If someone has classes in both an arcane casting class and a divine casting class, can they cast arcane spells opposed to their alignment? (I think this was discussed, but I forget the result) I don't think a cleric can cast spells against their alignment no matter which spell list they come from. Note that it's not just a matter of the deity refusing to grant the spell -- a Chaotic Neutral deity would be willing to grant a worshipper Protection from Evil, but a Chaotic Evil cleric still won't be able (or willing?) to cast it. For druids and adepts, there's no restriction against casting spells of a particular alignment.
Yitzi 05-08-07, 09:21 PM	Actually, druids do have such a restriction (although that may only apply to their divine spells even if a cleric's applies to all spells): A druid casts divine spells, which are drawn from the druid spell list. Her alignment may restrict her from casting certain spells opposed to her moral or ethical beliefs; see Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells, below So, the questions remaining are: 1. What is the final decision about clerics and druids casting arcane spells opposed to their alignment?, and 2. what's the rule about a duelist going total defense while holding a ranged weapon?
NiQil 05-08-07, 09:38 PM	Alright...I'm looking for ideas... I have been trying for some time to build both a dragon disciple and a pyrokineticist, both with little success. So I'm looking for suggestions as to class progressions to create both builds. I'm basically just looking for ideas that might spark something creative...
Rauul 05-08-07, 09:40 PM	Alright...I'm looking for ideas... I have been trying for some time to build both a dragon disciple and a pyrokineticist, both with little success. So I'm looking for suggestions as to class progressions to create both builds. I'm basically just looking for ideas that might spark something creative... Bards.. you can't get more creative than being a bard... and they are fun!
SauroGrenom 05-08-07, 09:43 PM	Actually, druids do have such a restriction (although that may only apply to their divine spells even if a cleric's applies to all spells): So, the questions remaining are: 1. What is the final decision about clerics and druids casting arcane spells opposed to their alignment?, and 2. what's the rule about a duelist going total defense while holding a ranged weapon? I don't know what the discussion was, but I'd vote for clerics being unable to cast spells of opposed alignment, regardless of the class that provides the ability to cast the spell. As for total defense, I see no requirements in the SRD to be in melee or wielding a melee weapon. Where'd you get that idea?
McJarvis 05-08-07, 09:46 PM	As for total defense, I see no requirements in the SRD to be in melee or wielding a melee weapon. Where'd you get that idea? In context(it was somewhat lost in his post), he was talking about the Duelist prestige class. Elaborate Parry (Ex): At 7th level and higher, if a duelist chooses to fight defensively or use total defense in melee combat, she gains an additional +1 dodge bonus to AC for each level of duelist she has. It's pretty much the best ability of the class, IMO. Since the class sucks so much, I'd give it to the duelist as long as they held a melee weapon & fight defensively.
Yitzi 05-08-07, 09:47 PM	I don't know what the discussion was, but I'd vote for clerics being unable to cast spells of opposed alignment, regardless of the class that provides the ability to cast the spell. How about druids?
Zevox 05-08-07, 09:54 PM	As for total defense, I see no requirements in the SRD to be in melee or wielding a melee weapon. Where'd you get that idea? Hes talking about the Duelist "Elaborate Parry" ability, which adds your Deulist level to the dodge bonus that or fighting defensively gives "when in melee combat." He wants to know when that works. I'm pretty sure my previous answer is wrong, since I didn't notice this worked with total defense too. In that case, I'd guess it works against melee attacks only. Alright...I'm looking for ideas... I have been trying for some time to build both a dragon disciple and a pyrokineticist, both with little success. So I'm looking for suggestions as to class progressions to create both builds. I'm basically just looking for ideas that might spark something creative... I've played around with the idea of Pyro for a while, but never come up with anything I like. If I were to do one, I'd probably do something similar to what I'm doing with Arden Tarmik right now. Fighter or Psychic Warrior 2/Wilder 3 or 4, then the PrC. As for Dragon Disciple, I've never given much thought to that. My brother was trying for one with a Sorcerer 1/Monk 4/Dragon Disciple X Wild Elf not long ago, but seems to have abandoned him. Seemed like a good idea to me. Zevox
McJarvis 05-08-07, 09:57 PM	Voila. Every time you roll a d20, you can determine a EDV(Estimated Damage Value) from the roll. It is determined by: (1/20)*(damage)+(1/20)*(damage)+.....etc, etc. Your damage does not vary depending on which die is rolled(unless we start taking into account critical hits, which I very well could do with proper time on non-work hours ;) ) Thus, there are four things that can happen: Auto hit(20) Auto miss(1) Hit(A range of non-20 or 1 values) Miss(A range of non-20 or 1 values) We'll label the # of non-auto hits that you can make as A, and the # of non-auto misses you can make as B. D, of course, represents your average damage. Your EDV for any particular attack, therefore, is EDV=(1/20)(D)+(1/20).... EDV=(1/20)*[(D)+A*(D)] For power attack, the calculation changes a bit. We'll throw "X" in there for the variable amount we might subtract from our attack roll. PEDV=(1/20)*[(D+2*X)+A*(D+2*X)-X*(D+2*X)] To find the "sweet spot" for power attack, we merely subtract and differentiate: PEDV-EDV=(1/20)*[2*X+2*A*X-X*D-2*X2] Differentiate with respect to X: [PEDV-EDV]'(X)=(1/20)*[2+2*A-D-4*X] Solve for 0: 0=(1/20)*[2+2*A-D-4*X] 4X+D=2+2A And there you go. For Hogarth's example of a warrior who has a 50/50 shot of dealing 10 damage: D=10 A=9 (50/50, #'s 11->19, because A can not include a natural 20) 4X+(10)=2+2(9) 4X+10=20 4X=10 X=2.5 And Macbrea's solution verifies that the premium damage output for this scenerio is between 2 and 3. [b]This is useful information[b/] because it tells us that power attack is more useful when you don't have a large damage output in the first place (!) or have a large number of #'s that will allow you to hit.(the second of which we probably all already knew, since true strike+power attack is so good) Is it strange that I likely wouldn't have bothered with this if Hogarth hadn't questioned my math-license? ;) edit-> You know, I think that's the first time I've ever had to use calculus for D&D. That was kind of cool. You know, you guys can't make fun of me for making math mistakes and then not even acknowledge how cool it is that I came up with a nice & easy formula from which you can figure out your optimal power attack ratings. It doesn't get much easier than just plugging numbers into X=[2+2A-D]/4 :P I mean, it's not even like what I did was that advanced-> it is just basic freshman year college math. (With a little bit of tweaking to combine freshman stats with freshman calc...but that's the beauty of math, right? Even if you don't like a particular subject, they can all be made better with calculus!) <---Math prowess is under appreciated everywhere he goes :( Why oh why did I decide to go into accounting? :rant:
Rauul 05-08-07, 10:04 PM	I have been looking through the rules for craft construct so i can make Corrupter a Homunculus (mini Corrupter) and i see no feat called that... So i will ask you all.. Whats the total cost to have a construct made so corrupter can make a Homunculus to be his spy.. (he has all the spells (well is purchussing arcane eye this week) needed and the blood, but needs the 50 gp of material crafted (DC 12 Craft (sculpting) check or a DC 12 Craft (pottery) check.) total cost is Cost 1,050 gp + 78 XP. (figured someone will do the math for me) As they are never sold.. So i am lost.. please help..
SauroGrenom 05-08-07, 10:05 PM	Alright...I'm looking for ideas... I have been trying for some time to build both a dragon disciple and a pyrokineticist, both with little success. So I'm looking for suggestions as to class progressions to create both builds. I'm basically just looking for ideas that might spark something creative...Dragon disciple... hmmm. Think about going into the Half-Dragon Paragon at the end. Or Dragon Disciple and Arcane Archer could be interesting. You rely mostly on archer abilities, and your combat abilities are augmented by buffs and a few spells. Basicially Dragon Disciple is a sorcerer who's going toward a warrior gish. Your spell casting will be many levels behind and low DC. So they won't be great offensive spells. Instead use the spells as buffs or protections in special situations. Then focus on building a decent archer or melee character with some backup spell ability. Also these characters will need to have a cohort at some point. You'll have a decent CHA score, so use it for a cohort to back you up. A Pyro could work as an ex warmind. Whatever you choose, think of it as a specialized melee character. You'll need all the good stuff for a melee character. Martial weapon profs, fast movement, perhaps a mount, full BAB progression, some good buffs. Ranger, psion, slayer into pyro could do the trick. Or perhaps a psionic race ranger into pyro.
TelinArtho 05-08-07, 10:45 PM	I have been looking through the rules for craft construct so i can make Corrupter a Homunculus (mini Corrupter) and i see no feat called that... So i will ask you all.. Whats the total cost to have a construct made so corrupter can make a Homunculus to be his spy.. (he has all the spells (well is purchussing arcane eye this week) needed and the blood, but needs the 50 gp of material crafted (DC 12 Craft (sculpting) check or a DC 12 Craft (pottery) check.) total cost is Cost 1,050 gp + 78 XP. (figured someone will do the math for me) As they are never sold.. So i am lost.. please help.. Craft construct is in the monster Feats section of the SRD.
Rauul 05-08-07, 10:52 PM	Craft construct is in the monster Feats section of the SRD. So pretty much remove it from my wish list... thanks
NiQil 05-08-07, 11:02 PM	So here's the new idea I have for a Dragon Disciple... Ex-Barbarian 2/Bard 1/Dragon Disciple 10/Half-Dragon Paragon 3/Paladin 2/Wilder 2 Gives me Uncanny Dodge for my FF AC, Elude Touch for my Cha to Touch AC, and Cha to saves, with a total of 3/4 attack progression. Gives me access to bard spells (wands), paladin spells (wands) and wilder powers (dorjes), a couple of minor powers to buff with using Wild Surge to extend their duration a little, and then all of that goes on top of the what DrD and HDP will give me in melee bonuses. Now if I can just figure out a race to make this all work....
Yitzi 05-08-07, 11:04 PM	I think Craft Construct can be used by characters too, it's just in "monster feats" because it's in the MM (since it's useless without it) And I'm still waiting for an answer: Can a good druid/wizard cast arcane spells with the evil descriptor (and similarly for the other 3 cases)? Also, for someone who casts arcane and divine spells, are the spell levels pooled or counted seperately for the 1/3 rule?
Rauul 05-08-07, 11:10 PM	I think it can be used by characters too, it's just in "monster feats" because it's in the MM (since it's useless without it) prereques are craft wonderous, and craft arms and armor so basicly the CL 4 on making them is a joke.. (cl 1 cwi, cl5 arms and armor) so best you can do is cl 6..(if your a wizard or psion) and with them not being sold and they die when the caster dies.. pretty much not gonna find them as a random monster
SauroGrenom 05-08-07, 11:26 PM	So here's the new idea I have for a Dragon Disciple... Ex-Barbarian 2/Bard 1/Dragon Disciple 10/Half-Dragon Paragon 3/Paladin 2/Wilder 2 Gives me Uncanny Dodge for my FF AC, Elude Touch for my Cha to Touch AC, and Cha to saves, with a total of 3/4 attack progression. Gives me access to bard spells (wands), paladin spells (wands) and wilder powers (dorjes), a couple of minor powers to buff with using Wild Surge to extend their duration a little, and then all of that goes on top of the what DrD and HDP will give me in melee bonuses. Now if I can just figure out a race to make this all work....I'd swap that bard level for sorcerer. The sorcerer gains bonuses to CL (but not new spells) during the half dragon paragon class. Bard doesn't get that. Also the Bard has a much more limited spell list. So fewer wands and scrolls will be available to a bard than a sorcerer. Otherwise it looks like a difficult alignment swing from chaotic as a Barb to LG for the paladin. Perhaps you can use one of the UA variant paladins or the blackguard prestige class. That way you could be an evil dragon and at least keep a consistent flavor though the progression.
Zevox 05-08-07, 11:32 PM	Otherwise it looks like a difficult alignment swing from chaotic as a Barb to LG for the paladin. Perhaps you can use one of the UA variant paladins or the blackguard prestige class. That way you could be an evil dragon and at least keep a consistent flavor though the progression. Actually, its cheaper to pay 5 credits to go from neutral (good/neutral/evil) as a Barbarian/Bard to lawful to become a Paladin than it is to pay 10 for the Paladin of Freedom or Paladin of Slaughter classes. Barbarians don't need to be chaotic, you know. Zevox
SauroGrenom 05-08-07, 11:35 PM	Actually, its cheaper to pay 5 credits to go from neutral (good/neutral/evil) as a Barbarian/Bard to lawful to become a Paladin than it is to pay 10 for the Paladin of Freedom or Paladin of Slaughter classes. Barbarians don't need to be chaotic, you know. Zevox I wasn't really thinking of credit costs, rather the RP and cheese involved in swinging alignments just to qualify for a certain class when there are other prestige or variant classes that could pull it off.
Yitzi 05-08-07, 11:38 PM	In case my questions have been lost in this other discussion: And I'm still waiting for an answer: Can a good druid/wizard cast arcane spells with the evil descriptor (and similarly for the other 3 cases)? Also, for someone who casts arcane and divine spells, are the spell levels pooled or counted seperately for the 1/3 rule?
SauroGrenom 05-08-07, 11:41 PM	In case my questions have been lost in this other discussion: I'm not sure, but I think spell levels are pooled for the 1/3 rule. About characters with divine spells and alignment restrictions. From what I understand the alignment restrictions are not limited to spell from that particular class. So a paladin/magic domain cleric couldn't under any circumstances cast a spell with the evil descriptor, even if it was an arcane scroll.
NiQil 05-08-07, 11:43 PM	I'd swap that bard level for sorcerer. The sorcerer gains bonuses to CL (but not new spells) during the half dragon paragon class. Bard doesn't get that. Also the Bard has a much more limited spell list. So fewer wands and scrolls will be available to a bard than a sorcerer. Otherwise it looks like a difficult alignment swing from chaotic as a Barb to LG for the paladin. Perhaps you can use one of the UA variant paladins or the blackguard prestige class. That way you could be an evil dragon and at least keep a consistent flavor though the progression. The alignment switch is the easy part....that's why I listed Ex-Barbarians.....take those as the first two levels, then switch to Lawful Good when taking Wilder at 3rd and 4th, and then take Bard/Sorcerer at 5, and then Paladin at 6 and 7, then DrD from 8-17, and then HDP 18-20. No alignment issues, and no multi-classing issues, and still keep everything I want. And yeah...I'm still debating between bard and sorcerer. I am leaning towards bard due to the boost to reflex saves it would give me and the extra skill points and higher HD vs the better spell list of the sorcerer. I don't plan on using all that much arcane stuff since I will have a hefty amount of ASF to deal with (mithral full plate), but I still need to go through the sorcerer spell list and see which spells I would realistically use that I couldn't get with the bard. And, of all races, I'm leaning towards dwarf LOL
Rauul 05-08-07, 11:49 PM	The alignment switch is the easy part....that's why I listed Ex-Barbarians.....take those as the first two levels, then switch to Lawful Good when taking Wilder at 3rd and 4th, and then take Bard/Sorcerer at 5, and then Paladin at 6 and 7, then DrD from 8-17, and then HDP 18-20. No alignment issues, and no multi-classing issues, and still keep everything I want. And yeah...I'm still debating between bard and sorcerer. I am leaning towards bard due to the boost to reflex saves it would give me and the extra skill points and higher HD vs the better spell list of the sorcerer. I don't plan on using all that much arcane stuff since I will have a hefty amount of ASF to deal with (mithral full plate), but I still need to go through the sorcerer spell list and see which spells I would realistically use that I couldn't get with the bard. And, of all races, I'm leaning towards dwarf LOL be careful with dwarf... to be a Dragon Disciple you need to speak Draconic., and thats not on the dwarf language list.. and is only added with Wizard i believe.. maybe sorceror... and definately human..
Zevox 05-08-07, 11:52 PM	I wasn't really thinking of credit costs, rather the RP and cheese involved in swinging alignments just to qualify for a certain class when there are other prestige or variant classes that could pull it off. True, but how often have you seen that bother most people around here? I think I'm the only one who has ever coughed up credits for purely RP reasons, and that was to make Mithos Durrol a Paladin of Tyrrany. Also, for someone who casts arcane and divine spells, are the spell levels pooled or counted seperately for the 1/3 rule? Counted separately. All separate casting classes are. Take a look at our current Mystic Theurges, Faleto and Mindrel Starmaster (both ECL 7) for examples. The alignment switch is the easy part....that's why I listed Ex-Barbarians.....take those as the first two levels, then switch to Lawful Good when taking Wilder at 3rd and 4th, and then take Bard/Sorcerer at 5, and then Paladin at 6 and 7, then DrD from 8-17, and then HDP 18-20. No alignment issues, and no multi-classing issues, and still keep everything I want. Bards can't be lawful either, you know. If you don't want to deal with an alignment switch, you either need to start as a LG Ex-Barbarian 2/Bard 1 or go Sorcerer. And, of all races, I'm leaning towards dwarf LOL Yeah, I'm sure none of us would have ever guessed that ;) . Zevox
SauroGrenom 05-08-07, 11:52 PM	So here's the new idea I have for a Dragon Disciple... Ex-Barbarian 2/Bard 1/Dragon Disciple 10/Half-Dragon Paragon 3/Paladin 2/Wilder 2 Gives me Uncanny Dodge for my FF AC, Elude Touch for my Cha to Touch AC, and Cha to saves, with a total of 3/4 attack progression. Gives me access to bard spells (wands), paladin spells (wands) and wilder powers (dorjes), a couple of minor powers to buff with using Wild Surge to extend their duration a little, and then all of that goes on top of the what DrD and HDP will give me in melee bonuses. Now if I can just figure out a race to make this all work....Just noticed that since DrD has a requirement for Knowledge Arcana 8 ranks, you cannot get into that class untill after the 5th level. So you could probably go Barb -> Wilder -> Sorcerer -> DrD mixed with Blackguard -> HDP For a race: Elf looks attractive because of the Draconic bonus language. Wild elf would probably be best. Although Xeph or Maenid wouldn't be bad either.
Zevox 05-08-07, 11:56 PM	About characters with divine spells and alignment restrictions. From what I understand the alignment restrictions are not limited to spell from that particular class. So a paladin/magic domain cleric couldn't under any circumstances cast a spell with the evil descriptor, even if it was an arcane scroll. In your example, that would be because of his code of conduct prohibiting any evil act whatsoever. Yitzi is talking about a cleric or druid with arcane casting levels using spells opposed to their alignment, which is quite different. Personally, I think it should be allowed. It seems to me that casting abilities and restrictions given by a class should apply to that class alone. Else we get wierdness like a Druid/Wizard converting wizard spells to SNA, a Cleric/Wizard converting Wizard spells to cure/inflict spells, or a specialist wizard/cleric getting a bonus spell for their specialization among their cleric spells. Zevox
Yitzi 05-09-07, 12:06 AM	With the amount of dispute about the matter (I think these exact same arguments were made alst time this came up), should I take it to the courtroom?
SauroGrenom 05-09-07, 12:26 AM	In your example, that would be because of his code of conduct prohibiting any evil act whatsoever. Yitzi is talking about a cleric or druid with arcane casting levels using spells opposed to their alignment, which is quite different. Personally, I think it should be allowed. It seems to me that casting abilities and restrictions given by a class should apply to that class alone. Else we get wierdness like a Druid/Wizard converting wizard spells to SNA, a Cleric/Wizard converting Wizard spells to cure/inflict spells, or a specialist wizard/cleric getting a bonus spell for their specialization among their cleric spells. ZevoxWell the druid class says: Her alignment may restrict her from casting certain spells opposed to her moral or ethical beliefs; see Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells, below.That looks to me to specifically say that restriction is due to the character's alignment, not any particular class feature. Your alignment is a characteristic separate from your class features, and your class features are beholden to it. Otherwise it would be possible to be an Evil Cleric and a Good Druid.
Zevox 05-09-07, 12:30 AM	Well the druid class says: That looks to me to specifically say that restriction is due to the character's alignment, not any particular class feature. Your alignment is a characteristic separate from your class features, and your class features are beholden to it. Otherwise it would be possible to be an Evil Cleric and a Good Druid. Um, Sauro, the restriction is obviously a class feature. Its spelled out in the descriptions of those particular classes alone. It is based on what alignment you are, but that doesn't make it inherent in your alignment that you're incapable of casting spells of opposing alignments. Or would you say that a wizard (pure wizard mind you, no Cleric or Druid levels) who is good can't cast evil spells? Zevox
Rauul 05-09-07, 12:37 AM	Um, Sauro, the restriction is obviously a class feature. Its spelled out in the descriptions of those particular classes alone. It is based on what alignment you are, but that doesn't make it inherent in your alignment that you're incapable of casting spells of opposing alignments. Or would you say that a wizard (pure wizard mind you, no Cleric or Druid levels) who is good can't cast evil spells? Zevox Acually i have to go with Sauro on this... since you have to follow the class features of all your classes.. a Good aligned Druid/ wizard can memorize and cast the evil descripters spells in Wizard... but better go looking for attonement to his god for casting an evil spell before he/she/it can cast any druid spells or abilitys It is not good to go against the nature of your God.. especually when they grant you spells
Erithmu 05-09-07, 12:40 AM	@Niqil: I kinda agree w/ the rest of the gang, I don't think bard is the best option for going into DrD. In my mind I am kicking around something like the following: Pal2/Sor1/Clr1/Psi 1/DD10/HDP3/+2?? (ex barb?/Psi war for feats) Sorc spells are True strike, psion 1 gets you simple buffs like skate & force screen then work the divine might angle. That and using the DrD bonus spells for bard cantrips? ... yea you can do better. You could easily be running a pretty nasty alpha strike w/ PA + Deep Impact + Divine Might. You will get flight later on. but K(arc) is class skill for sorc, clr, and psion. the Psion would also open up discipline powers that might be useful (Ego: Animal affinity) int and wis would have to be at 12 each, moderate to high charisma, then run high strength. Then again I'm about to go to sleep so this might be a little off kilter.
Zevox 05-09-07, 12:50 AM	Acually i have to go with Sauro on this... since you have to follow the class features of all your classes.. a Good aligned Druid/ wizard can memorize and cast the evil descripters spells in Wizard... but better go looking for attonement to his god for casting an evil spell before he/she/it can cast any druid spells or abilitys It is not good to go against the nature of your God.. especually when they grant you spells The problem is, thats an RP argument, not a rules one. If we want to get into RP arguments, I could explain why I think prohibiting spells based on alignment is stupid to begin with, but that doesn't matter here. In any event, what you just said is contrary to what Sauro said anyway. He said you couldn't cast the spell at all, as it is with a Druid or Cleric. You said you could, but would lose your abilities if you do. Two different things right there. Zevox
TheMagister 05-09-07, 07:02 AM	If I were DM-ing a character, I'd treat 'em like a paladin with a code of conduct to follow: Code of Conduct: don't cast spells with the Evil Descriptor, or your diety will pull your divine funding! Splitting hairs by calling a Wizard spell exempt from the paragraph: Her alignment may restrict her from casting certain spells opposed to her moral or ethical beliefs; see Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells, below. ...is a very thin argument when your diety's avatar comes down at sunrise to ask your Pelorian cleric why he's casting Animate Dead spells, and if he thinks that he's being a good representative of Pelorian ethics by doing so. The quote says nothing about only divine spells opposed to her moral or ethical beliefs being restricted. They're restricted from casting "certain spells". Without an exhaustive list, that sounds like it's left up to DM interpretation. To my mind, were I DM-ing such a character, any Evil spell is off limits to a Divine Representative of Good, no matter the Evil spell's origin. My 2cp. TM
templer10 05-09-07, 07:36 AM	correct me if iam wrong but i was under the impression that having a natural attack isnt enough to get deflect arrows and you need imp unarmed strike before that no matter what? also - does the spell - warp wood - work on held (attented) objects?
Sjiggie 05-09-07, 07:45 AM	I'm searching for a questlord for Valanthe (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12072066#post12072066). He is going on a full quest to search for the Talariic Texts to enter the Warmind Prc. Someone willing to take it? Thanks Sjiggie
Hirumajoe 05-09-07, 08:22 AM	not even acknowledge[/I] how cool it is that I came up with a nice & easy formula from which you can figure out your optimal power attack ratings. It doesn't get much easier than just plugging numbers into X=[2+2A-D]/4 :P I mean, it's not even like what I did was that advanced-> it is just basic freshman year college math. (With a little bit of tweaking to combine freshman stats with freshman calc...but that's the beauty of math, right? Even if you don't like a particular subject, they can all be made better with calculus!) <---Math prowess is under appreciated everywhere he goes :( Why oh why did I decide to go into accounting? :rant: Its is a very nice simple formula. Handy too. My fundamental problem is I use calculus and math every day, so its not particularly shocking to my system. :) I mean, I've got matlab plots showing the places in damage/to-hit parameter space where +1 enhancements beat out 1d6 or 1d4 damage enhancements.
SauroGrenom 05-09-07, 08:34 AM	Um, Sauro, the restriction is obviously a class feature. Its spelled out in the descriptions of those particular classes alone. It is based on what alignment you are, but that doesn't make it inherent in your alignment that you're incapable of casting spells of opposing alignments. Or would you say that a wizard (pure wizard mind you, no Cleric or Druid levels) who is good can't cast evil spells? ZevoxThe good wizard could cast evil spells. But this is because there is no restriction on a single classed wizard. The idea that you can ignore the alignment restrictions on clerics by just taking a few levels in another casting class sets of my munchkin alarm. The way I see it is that if a restriction exists, then it should be applied in a general sense unless there are specific rules that limit the restriction or it's penalties to the features of one class. So the default interpretation is that class restrictions apply generally unless we are told otherwise. A cleric casts spells w/o ASF. However there are specific rules that state that ASF applies only to arcane spells. So this class feature clearly applies only to the divine spells the cleric can cast. Also a druid cannot wear metal armor. So a druid/cleric who wears metal armor would loose his druid supernatural class features. There is a specific rule that limits the effect of this penalty to just druid class features. A paladin's code of ethics doesn't apply to only things he does with paladin class features. In the first two cases, the only reason that the restrictions apply to class features of one class is because the rules specifically state that the restrictions apply with specific penalties on one class. In the latter, the restriction applies generally despite being listed as a class feature of one class and none others.
TelinArtho 05-09-07, 09:35 AM	correct me if iam wrong but i was under the impression that having a natural attack isnt enough to get deflect arrows and you need imp unarmed strike before that no matter what? That's correct - however, if you note this as a violation - make sure it hasn't been posted already (because a number of them haven't been fixed yet and are in the IMT). If it hasn't been posted yet though - go ahead. also - does the spell - warp wood - work on held (attented) objects? Yes it does. You can see this by its Saving throw entry: Saving Throw: Will negates (object) and in the magic overview it says the following: (object): The spell can be cast on objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended (held, worn, grasped, or the like) by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object uses the creature’s saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater. (This notation does not mean that a spell can be cast only on objects. Some spells of this sort can be cast on creatures or objects.) A magic item’s saving throw bonuses are each equal to 2 + one-half the item’s caster level.
TelinArtho 05-09-07, 09:41 AM	It looks correct as far as I can tell, except for this last part. Perfect Deal doubles the duration, not the value, so you'd get 390 guild points for the first 12 weeks, 300 for the next 20, and 100 for the final 4. According to the description (that Cat has in the CEF thread - I'll double check the random events to be sure), the Perfect Deal is a trade agreement with half the trade points required. I'd be certainly fine with double duration or double points, but on looking more closely it doesn't seem to be either one.
Yitzi 05-09-07, 10:03 AM	Acually i have to go with Sauro on this... since you have to follow the class features of all your classes.. a Good aligned Druid/ wizard can memorize and cast the evil descripters spells in Wizard... but better go looking for attonement to his god for casting an evil spell before he/she/it can cast any druid spells or abilitys It is not good to go against the nature of your God.. especually when they grant you spells Er, druids don't get their spells from a deity, they get it from nature itself, and that doesn't have an alignment. Would you say a lawful cleric of Pelor (NG) needs atonement for casting (or cannot cast) a chaotic arcane spell?
TheMagister 05-09-07, 10:34 AM	Would you say a lawful cleric of Pelor (NG) needs atonement for casting (or cannot cast) a chaotic arcane spell? Trick question! The problem lies in Pelor's alignment restrictions, not the cleric's alignment tendencies. Since Pelor is neutral good, he only disallows the casting of evil aligned spells. His neutral stance means that he is not concerned with the lawful or chaotic nature of the good and neutral spells he allows his representatives to cast. Heironeous (for example), is a Lawful Good diety. His clerics are restricted to casting only non-chaotic and non-evil spells. In my opinion, a cleric of Heironeous who also possessed training in the arcane arts who intentionally casts an Evil or Chaos aligned arcane spell would lose his access to his Divinely-granted spellcasting abilities until he received Atonement. TM
Macbrea 05-09-07, 11:10 AM	Think, I will probably give the Guild system another try. :P Anyone see anything overly incorrect with Yorick?
TelinArtho 05-09-07, 11:17 AM	He's definitely interesting. Beware against opponents who have the ability to cast Daylight though... The save DCs for Daze and Sound Burst are off - they are based on the CHA bonus - so Daze is DC11 and Sound Burst is DC13. [1/2 racial HD (round down) + Cha bonus]
Macbrea 05-09-07, 11:19 AM	Fixed on the Daze and Sound Burst. Yeah.. I think the only cure for that is darkness at will. :P I was curious what they look like race wise on paper in our system.
Macbrea 05-09-07, 11:22 AM	Oddly, they forgot to give them languages. And by the DMG that means they speak common plus int bonus.
TheMagister 05-09-07, 11:26 AM	Think, I will probably give the Guild system another try. :P Anyone see anything overly incorrect with Yorick? Couple of things: Size bonus to Hide? It's an additional +4 bonus, I think. Speed penalty to Jump? It's a -6 for every 10' below 30', so whaddaya do for a 25' speed? A -3? {shrug} Buy some tattoos of chameleon! TM
TelinArtho 05-09-07, 11:31 AM	Fixed on the Daze and Sound Burst. Yeah.. I think the only cure for that is darkness at will. :P I was curious what they look like race wise on paper in our system. It seems a little expensive to me for +2 LA for nothing special on abilities, +1d6 sneak attack and a couple of not-very-impressive SLAs. On the languages - that does seem odd - but yes, Common and Int bonus beyond that is all you've got to go by. @TM - modifiers for jump are only at the 10ft markers. So he shouldn't have a -3 (or a -6) penalty for a 25ft speed. Nor would he get a +2 (or a +4 modifier) if his speed were 35ft.
Macbrea 05-09-07, 11:32 AM	Hmm, Tattoo of chameleon..... Fixed Hide to add +4 is now +19 hide. On the -6 per 10ft of movement. I don't have a full 10ft of movment below 30ft. And therefore by the rules of rounding in DnD I shouldn't be penalized. :P
Macbrea 05-09-07, 11:35 AM	It seems a little expensive to me for +2 LA for nothing special on abilities, +1d6 sneak attack and a couple of not-very-impressive SLAs. What your actually paying for is: Spell like abilities and Spell Resistance 15 The BAB of fighter and +1d6 sneak attack, Poison use are more equivalent to a real class and therefore part of the package. Any creature with Spell resistance will automaticly get an LA.
TelinArtho 05-09-07, 11:43 AM	Forgot about the SR and the BAB and the poison use... I suppose that does make a fair amount of difference. In any case - good luck with him - he seems interesting to me... almost enough to reactivate my grimlock...
TheMagister 05-09-07, 11:43 AM	It seems a little expensive to me for +2 LA for nothing special on abilities, +1d6 sneak attack and a couple of not-very-impressive SLAs. On the languages - that does seem odd - but yes, Common and Int bonus beyond that is all you've got to go by. @TM - modifiers for jump are only at the 10ft markers. So he shouldn't have a -3 (or a -6) penalty for a 25ft speed. Nor would he get a +2 (or a +4 modifier) if his speed were 35ft. Hmm. The way I was thinking of it was: His natural speed is 20' (-6 to jump). He has a bonus to speed of 5'. This bonus is not enough to reach the 30' marker. Once he reaches the 30' marker, the -6 penalty goes away.
Macbrea 05-09-07, 11:44 AM	Well. I need a character with good personality for playing around in the guilds. And since, I retired Marcus long ago.... I need someone with a slightly bent evil outlook on life.
TelinArtho 05-09-07, 11:47 AM	@TM - the speed modifier to jump doesn't care about the base land speed of the character - only the current speed. The jump description specifies that for every full 10ft slower than 30ft, the jump skill receives a -6 penalty. At 25ft, this is not a full 10ft slower, ergo - no penalty.
Yitzi 05-09-07, 12:05 PM	Trick question! The problem lies in Pelor's alignment restrictions, not the cleric's alignment tendencies. The SRD says: "A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one)" They are both restrictions. And I am asking if the one about one's own alignment (which also applies to druids) applies to arcane spells as well. Of course a cleric of Pelor who casts an evil arcane spell (if possible at all) would need atonement before using cleric abilities as per: "A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description). " But what if it does not violate the diety's alignment, only his own?
Usurpator 05-09-07, 12:29 PM	You guys sure are busy, 5 new Tavern pages in just 20 hours! In any case, what's with the new skill packs, haven't seen those before. Is every wizard (or otherwise high skill point character) now automatically having a 'Political Career'? And Cat isn't running CoCo anymore? That is a big upset, althought I often disagreed with him, the creativity, effort and initiatives he contributed here was monumental. What happene? I deduced something was going on when I saw his characters being withdrawn from the Iron Man. Probably a good thing, or they might be well paired to fight each other in the latter half of the tournament. Nothing has changed in the overabundance of allies (and corresponding rules) in the last 6 months? What about the whole Guild Wars, anything interesting happening there? How did the UA rules work out in practice?
Macbrea 05-09-07, 12:37 PM	Heh.. welcome back. We just been randomly chatting. I will let someone else tell cat's story. Yup.. still allies gone wild. The flavor is pegasus and griffons. UA seems to work fine. Nothing appears horridly broken.
TelinArtho 05-09-07, 12:38 PM	You can read many of the public posts leading up to Cat's departure in the IMT thread and the result in the Abdication thread he posted a few days ago. I'm sorry to say that the actions that solidified his departure was because of a fight between Mer-man and Kraegin and as such, I am partially involved. As to political career - a wizard would only be able to gain it by having 5 ranks in diplomacy - so unless he's got something special there - that won't be happening. Court connections in order to boost income is pretty easily gotten though (5 ranks in Knowledge-Nobility and Royalty and a money-making skill). Allies are still allies. I know Sauro wants to review the diplomacy allies - but we were waiting on that until after the IMT's completion. The Guild game has continued on - I have taken over for CEF - although most of the "interesting" things happened a few months ago when WAR was trying to get all of the other guilds to align against CEF for a situation in Gawane. Many of the "hard-feelings" between those guilds still exist. UA is still in its infancy here. There are a few who are using them in one way or another - but in large part - few people cough up the credits for them. I have two variant specialists active right now; there's a couple of cloistered clerics, a couple of battle sorcerers and I believe Reginald Molehusband is the only one with a bloodline. Paragons are also showing up here and there.
Yitzi 05-09-07, 01:05 PM	Currently I'm trying to ask about whether a mixed arcane/divine caster can cast arcane spells opposed to his alignment but not those of his diety (if he's a cleric). I'm having some trouble getting a straight answer.
TheMagister 05-09-07, 01:06 PM	More like you're having trouble getting people to agree on a single answer. Good luck with that, BTW. There's been opinions on both sides of the discussion; I'd take it to the courtroom if it's really important to you.
MindWandererB 05-09-07, 01:29 PM	You guys sure are busy, 5 new Tavern pages in just 20 hours! In any case, what's with the new skill packs, haven't seen those before. Is every wizard (or otherwise high skill point character) now automatically having a 'Political Career'? And Cat isn't running CoCo anymore? That is a big upset, althought I often disagreed with him, the creativity, effort and initiatives he contributed here was monumental. What happene? I deduced something was going on when I saw his characters being withdrawn from the Iron Man. Probably a good thing, or they might be well paired to fight each other in the latter half of the tournament. Nothing has changed in the overabundance of allies (and corresponding rules) in the last 6 months? What about the whole Guild Wars, anything interesting happening there? How did the UA rules work out in practice?Political Career is pretty common, but Court Connections is the one that the wizards and psions tend to end up with. As for Cat... basically what happened is that he stopped running his characters for a long time. During that period, our approach to adjudication became much more strict and legalistic. He was offended by the unforgiving attitude toward misuse of language in tactics, but on another level, he felt like the community was out to get him. Which wasn't entirely unfounded; when the IMT came up, most people were just hoping someone would beat Cat, and didn't expect to be able to do so themselves. There were a lot of hard feelings in general. I'm quite glad that my characters aren't as powerful as his, so there will be less resentment... although it does concern me slightly that two or three of the five IMT semifinalists are my own. I don' think anyone will accuse me of cheating.... As Telin said, the ally rules are slated for an overhaul when IMT finishes up. Starting to change things of which Cat was the major proponent is going to be a long-term project, especially since I do want to continue the process of add-ons as well. Maybe we can alternate: add something, take something away, add something. The Guild Wars are at a lull, primarily because everyone realized that if two (or more) guilds went hostile at this stage in the game, they'd be crippled compared to everyone else when the dust cleared. Now, I doubt anyone's going to pick a fight unless they're in a very strong position. UA is going well, although the steep credit costs keep it from being overwhelmingly popular, which is probably a good thing. Cloistered clerics and battle sorcerers seem to be the most popular choices; there are also some racial paragons and a small handful of other variants. Very few bloodlines.According to the description (that Cat has in the CEF thread - I'll double check the random events to be sure), the Perfect Deal is a trade agreement with half the trade points required. I'd be certainly fine with double duration or double points, but on looking more closely it doesn't seem to be either one.The actual random event that was posted (by Cat) was double duration. I don't know why that's different from the one in the Guild thread, but that is what he mentioned in his email to me. Besides, half cost means nothing when you're paying nothing.
hogarth 05-09-07, 01:38 PM	"Political Career" seems to be by far the most popular skill package -- if you can afford the necessary skills (easy for paladins, telepaths, bards and clerics with the Knowledge domain, slightly harder for others), it gives free XP/GP. Some people use the Ambush or Scout skill packages, but the few extra rounds don't seem to make a huge amount of difference (in general). A few people have tried setting traps (with mixed results). I don't know if you were around when the use for Forgery was changed, but now you can't use it to exceed the limit on allies. So the number of possible allies has been lowered slightly, but not that much. The Unearthed Arcana rules would be much more popular if they weren't so expensive (10 credits per rule). There are a few variant classes floating around, though. You guys sure are busy, 5 new Tavern pages in just 20 hours! In any case, what's with the new skill packs, haven't seen those before. Is every wizard (or otherwise high skill point character) now automatically having a 'Political Career'? Nothing has changed in the overabundance of allies (and corresponding rules) in the last 6 months? How did the UA rules work out in practice?
Zevox 05-09-07, 01:39 PM	If I were DM-ing a character, I'd treat 'em like a paladin with a code of conduct to follow: Code of Conduct: don't cast spells with the Evil Descriptor, or your diety will pull your divine funding! Splitting hairs by calling a Wizard spell exempt from the paragraph: ...is a very thin argument when your diety's avatar comes down at sunrise to ask your Pelorian cleric why he's casting Animate Dead spells, and if he thinks that he's being a good representative of Pelorian ethics by doing so. The quote says nothing about only divine spells opposed to her moral or ethical beliefs being restricted. They're restricted from casting "certain spells". Without an exhaustive list, that sounds like it's left up to DM interpretation. To my mind, were I DM-ing such a character, any Evil spell is off limits to a Divine Representative of Good, no matter the Evil spell's origin. My 2cp. TM The problem is, as with Rauul's argument, this an RP-based one. If I were DMing a divine caster, I'd remove the alignment restrictions outright and base the spells they're penalized for casting on the specific Deity and spell. For instance, Pelor may hate undead (correct me if I'm wrong there - I tend to remember things about the Greyhawk deities by equating them to FR ones, and in this case the FR one is Lathander, who does hate undead) and punish any of his priests who dares to cast Animate Dead, but why would be so upset if they cast Protection from Good to ward themselves from an outsider that was summoned against them? Or Pelor may not want his Clerics animating undead, but would Tymora (CG Goddess of Luck) really but just as opposed to that as him? That and, to be honest, some of the spell selection for what is/isn't an evil spell strikes me as stupid (Animate Dead is evil, but Soul Bind isn't? What the Hells?). The good wizard could cast evil spells. But this is because there is no restriction on a single classed wizard. Yup, because the restriction is part of a class feature, not inherent in their alignment. My point exactly. The idea that you can ignore the alignment restrictions on clerics by just taking a few levels in another casting class sets of my munchkin alarm. Why? You can already do that just by making the Cleric True Neutral, which is much easier than multiclassing as an arcane caster. In any case, what's with the new skill packs, haven't seen those before. Is every wizard (or otherwise high skill point character) now automatically having a 'Political Career'? They were one of Cat's ideas to make skills more useful. Political Career is one that a lot of folks go for, yes, but since that requires diplomacy its not as easily obtained as you may think. And Cat isn't running CoCo anymore? That is a big upset, althought I often disagreed with him, the creativity, effort and initiatives he contributed here was monumental. What happene? Well, the trigger was the Iron Man Tournament, specifically the fight between Kraegin and Mer-Man (though it seems that some of the arguments around Loddick vs The Harvester & Pale-Rider may have helped set it up). You can read about that in the Iron Man comments/concerns thread. His final word on the matter is here, in his "Abdication" thread. I deduced something was going on when I saw his characters being withdrawn from the Iron Man. Probably a good thing, or they might be well paired to fight each other in the latter half of the tournament. Ironically, even now that Cat is out of that, we may have a situation much the same. MWB still has three characters (well, two and a team with 'Rith) in the tournament, only one of whom hasn't won her fight this round yet. If she wins that, he'll be 3/4 of the finalists (the fourth being Sauro's Raskos). Nothing has changed in the overabundance of allies (and corresponding rules) in the last 6 months? The ally rules haven't changed, if thats what you mean, no. What about the whole Guild Wars, anything interesting happening there? Like Telin said, a few months back we had a big clash between WAR and the CEF that nearly sprouted a Guilds-wide battle against the latter. TAO, some peace talks, and a lot of CEF strong-arming stopped it though. Right now things are pretty peaceful. Most of the Guilds have control of two districts now and are building up. Plenty of non-aggressive Guild missions and operations going on though. How did the UA rules work out in practice? Suprisingly good, though they're not exactly widely used. Telin has a couple of UA-variant casters at ECL 3. I just started a Domain Abjurer at that level. McJarvis had an undefeated Battle Sorcerer for a while, until he retired him after his first defeat at the hands of MWB's Orc Gakhnalak. I have a Paladin of Tyrrany/Sorcerer whos doing pretty good (though the only reason he has the UA variant is so he could be LE and not need to use the Blackguard PrC). Racial Paragons are popping up here and there - MWB's Orc that I mentioned before is an Orc Paragon, 'Rith has a Human Paragon Druid, the Domain Abjurer I just started is going to go Human Paragon later, and I think DSugui had a Half-Dragon Paragon before he vanished. Nothing we've implemented seems particularly problematic as of yet, so its going fine you could say. Zevox
MindWandererB 05-09-07, 01:39 PM	It is with great pleasure that I see that the official change has gone through: Zevox and Vathelokai are our new Core Coliseum Elders! Congratulations to you both! (McJarvis, you lose your bet.) Zevox, as you all know, is the elder over Guildlords. We still need to determine what the elder domains of Vath, Sauro, and Telin will be; again, the options are Events (Newspaper, global events), Scribe (World of Gladius project), and the unnamed job of handling the not-yet-existent Living Characters add-on. So far, none of the three have expressed a strong interest in any of those domains... I'm just waiting to hear from them! (Or better yet, we can discuss it on IM.)
McJarvis 05-09-07, 01:58 PM	(McJarvis, you lose your bet.) What can I say? I just assumed that mastery of the rules & longevity would be the primary attributes desirable in an elder. Oh, and I made the mistake of taking Sauro seriously when he said he wasn't going to speak his mind as an elder anymore. ;)
Zevox 05-09-07, 01:59 PM	It is with great pleasure that I see that the official change has gone through: Zevox and Vathelokai are our new Core Coliseum Elders! Congratulations to you both! (McJarvis, you lose your bet.) Zevox, as you all know, is the elder over Guildlords. We still need to determine what the elder domains of Vath, Sauro, and Telin will be; again, the options are Events (Newspaper, global events), Scribe (World of Gladius project), and the unnamed job of handling the not-yet-existent Living Characters add-on. So far, none of the three have expressed a strong interest in any of those domains... I'm just waiting to hear from them! (Or better yet, we can discuss it on IM.) Ah, so Vath is the other one - I suspected as much, but couldn't be sure. Congrats Vath :) ! Though I'm a bit surprised to hear that the Scribelords position is in question - Vath's been doing that one for a while, right? Why the change now? Zevox
Yitzi 05-09-07, 02:00 PM	Why? You can already do that just by making the Cleric True Neutral, which is much easier than multiclassing as an arcane caster. Actually, multiclassing as an arcane caster wouldn't remove the restrictions-the cleric still could not cast divine spells against their alignment. In any case, the issue has now been moved to the Courtroom
MindWandererB 05-09-07, 02:04 PM	Though I'm a bit surprised to hear that the Scribelords position is in question - Vath's been doing that one for a while, right? Why the change now?Because although Vath has been doing birthdays and whatnot, The main task of the Scribelord is to develop the World of Gladius! Everytime a new locale appears in one of the quests or campaigns, he adds it to the World of Gladius map. Of course, he is free to add locations on his own as he sees fit. To do that, he needs the Fractal Mapper software and he has to read the quests and campaigns, not the worst duty. It is also important that any new location is announced on the board so that members see that their stories have an impact on the world. This account also adds birthday dates to the Tales of Gladius thread and sends a PM to Pitlords if a member has birthday (which is worth 2° as a birthday present). The Scribelord also adds the best stories to the Tales of Gladius thread in a story form (for example, if it was a fight, he removes the rolls) and awards credits to the storyteller.That doesn't mean that all of this necessarily has to be done, but the World of Gladius project isn't doing so hot. I'd prefer to make sure that's an official responsibility, even if a delegated one.
TelinArtho 05-09-07, 02:10 PM	Congrats to the new elders - welcome to the mayhem of making sure everyone stays happy...
hogarth 05-09-07, 02:14 PM	That doesn't mean that all of this necessarily has to be done, but the World of Gladius project isn't doing so hot. I'd prefer to make sure that's an official responsibility, even if a delegated one. If some elements of the CoCo (like arena battles) are markedly more popular than others (like the World of Gladius project), shouldn't resources be focused on the popular bit rather than the unpopular bit? :confused:
McJarvis 05-09-07, 02:21 PM	If some elements of the CoCo (like arena battles) are markedly more popular than others (like the World of Gladius project), shouldn't resources be focused on the popular bit rather than the unpopular bit? :confused: Obviously the reason they are not popular is that they have not been focused on yet!
hogarth 05-09-07, 02:31 PM	Obviously the reason they are not popular is that they have not been focused on yet! In that case, I suggest an Elder be put in charge of brassieres for zebras as well. An informal survey reveals that the number of brassiere-wearing zebras in the Core Coliseum is vanishingly small!
McJarvis 05-09-07, 02:36 PM	In that case, I suggest an Elder be put in charge of brassieres for zebras as well. An informal survey reveals that the number of brassiere-wearing zebras in the Core Coliseum is vanishingly small! Indeed. I'd volunteer for the task myself-> but alas, I was not appointed as an elder ;)
TelinArtho 05-09-07, 02:40 PM	Well a survey is really the purview of the Newspaper. If you want to write an article about a recent survey - you are welcome to do so...
Yitzi 05-09-07, 02:41 PM	I've come up with a new character. What do you think?
SoulLord 05-09-07, 02:43 PM	As a suggestion if the tournament ever makes it back #1 No one should have more than 1 character on the tournament #2 review the free rounds given I dont mind (much) the prebuffs but having a surprise round can bring back those very fast matches where the archer horseman to name one can fill you with arrows for 2 round before you are even allowed to use your dex bonus to dodge them. As a question related to this matter will the higher leagues open up and thus will our current 10th level gladiators be unfrozen?
McJarvis 05-09-07, 03:09 PM	As a suggestion if the tournament ever makes it back #1 No one should have more than 1 character on the tournament #2 review the free rounds given I dont mind (much) the prebuffs but having a surprise round can bring back those very fast matches where the archer horseman to name one can fill you with arrows for 2 round before you are even allowed to use your dex bonus to dodge them. As a question related to this matter will the higher leagues open up and thus will our current 10th level gladiators be unfrozen? #1 won't happen because not enough different people have 10th level characters. ECL10->14(15?) will be open on conclusion of iron man.
Usurpator 05-09-07, 03:11 PM	I've come up with a new character. What do you think? I like it, it has excellent defenses. Although I'm a bit worried how you will be able to kill your opponent. Count on your Shield spell running out before you are able to at times. Staying at range and use missile fire will prove difficult because of the reload requirements of the crossbow. I always size up new characters relative to my own of the same ECL and run a mock battle in my head. Against Namara it would probably come down to a grapple match, which she will win. Against Borodin you will expend lots of bolts and scrolls, possible use a ray of enfeeblement, grapple and then have decent odds at winning. Of course, if he can use his horse effectively, you will be in trouble quickly. Against Solon: I pity the poor Pitlord who has to go roll and record lots and lots of shots in this archery contest. All in all a good idea, but I think it needs some more offensive ooomph to avoid irritating Pitlords too much.
SoulLord 05-09-07, 03:29 PM	#1 won't happen because not enough different people have 10th level characters. ECL10->14(15?) will be open on conclusion of iron man. on #1 if it can't be held at level 10 then either A).- Reduce it in level 7, 5 , 3? so we have enough or B).- Allow people to create 10th level characters for use only on the tournament. * this should cost credits (not as many as making a permanent one) * they should be audited before they are allowed. * the person auditing them should receive part of the credit cost used in allowing them does this sem more acceptable?
Hirumajoe 05-09-07, 03:33 PM	I've come up with a new character. What do you think? I'd suggest Enlarge person. I'd say at least 3 castings worth in scrolls. It gets you grapple bonuses (+4 for Size, +1 for Strength) and it gets you damage (Large Sized unarmed damage plus +1 for strength). Admittedly it does put you at -2 to hit.
templer10 05-09-07, 03:33 PM	I've come up with a new character. What do you think? suggestion - spend some cash on scrolls of shocking grasp or memorize it - cast it after the mage armor/shield combo then do normal flurry- first attack do regular dmg+shocking graps dmg.
hogarth 05-09-07, 03:47 PM	on #1 if it can't be held at level 10 then either A).- Reduce it in level 7, 5 , 3? so we have enough or B).- Allow people to create credit free 10h level characters for use only on the tournament. * this should cost credits (not as many as making a permanent one) * they should be audited before they are allowed. * the person auditing them should receive part of the credit cost used in allowing them does this sem more acceptable? I have been thinking about what the next "special event" we have should be like. I would like to suggest that it NOT be a tournament -- the first rounds of tournaments are exciting, but the succeeding rounds are less so (IMO) as fewer people are personally involved. I'd much rather see a special event that can involve anyone who wants to participate, not just a select few. Here's the suggestion I've been mulling over: Did you ever want to try out a far-out, bizarre combination, but you don't have the patience to wait for it to pay off? Ever want to make the perfect build, but you can't afford the credits? For one week's pairings, whoever wants to can create an ECL 13 character with UNLIMITED credits! Yes -- you heard me -- UNLIMITED CREDITS!! A custom staff of Antimagic Field? Why not buy two! Unearthed Arcana classes? No problem! Always had your eye on a 25 HD advanced tyrannosaurus Handle Animal buddy? Now's your chance! Just create your ECL 13 character any which way you want it and enlist it normally for that week's pairings and see the mayhem that ensues! This is a limited time offer -- the character is valid for that week's parings ONLY. There's no prize; just the honour of having your fellow gladiators "ooh" and "aah" over your personal creation. ARENA PATRONS: YOU'LL PAY FOR THE WHOLE SEAT, BUT YOU'LL ONLY NEED THE EDGE!!!
Yitzi 05-09-07, 03:47 PM	I like it, it has excellent defenses. Although I'm a bit worried how you will be able to kill your opponent. Count on your Shield spell running out before you are able to at times. That's why I have extra scrolls. Staying at range and use missile fire will prove difficult because of the reload requirements of the crossbow. The crossbow is not meant to be my primary weapon, it is for those times that the enemy has both desire and ability to stay at range...and in such case going prone could very well mean he needs a 20 to hit. Against Namara it would probably come down to a grapple match, which she will win. Yes, but that's true of nearly anyone except a heavy caster. Against Borodin you will expend lots of bolts and scrolls, possible use a ray of enfeeblement, grapple and then have decent odds at winning. Of course, if he can use his horse effectively, you will be in trouble quickly. Or just buff+ray of enfeeblement and use FoB to have a good chance of winning. Against Solon: I pity the poor Pitlord who has to go roll and record lots and lots of shots in this archery contest. Nah, I'd just use expeditious retreat of my own, then chase after him while using total defense for +6 AC-he can't damage me without rapid shot (and even then he needs 2 20s if I've got mage armor up). All in all a good idea, but I think it needs some more offensive ooomph to avoid irritating Pitlords too much. It is meant to be a defensive build. And the offense isn't bad, it just isn't the focus.
McJarvis 05-09-07, 03:52 PM	I have been thinking about what the next "special event" we have should be like. I would like to suggest that it NOT be a tournament -- the first rounds of tournaments are exciting, but the succeeding rounds are less so (IMO) as fewer people are personally involved. I'd much rather see a special event that can involve anyone who wants to participate, not just a select few. Here's the suggestion I've been mulling over: Did you ever want to try out a far-out, bizarre combination, but you don't have the patience to wait for it to pay off? Ever want to make the perfect build, but you can't afford the credits? For one week's pairings, whoever wants to can create an ECL 13 character with UNLIMITED credits! Yes -- you heard me -- UNLIMITED CREDITS!! A custom staff of Antimagic Field? Why not buy two! Unearthed Arcana classes? No problem! Always had your eye on a 25 HD advanced tyrannosaurus Handle Animal buddy? Now's your chance! Just create your ECL 13 character any which way you want it and enlist it normally for that week's pairings and see the mayhem that ensues! This is a limited time offer -- the character is valid for that week's parings ONLY. There's no prize; just the honour of having your fellow gladiators "ooh" and "aah" over your personal creation. ARENA PATRONS: YOU'LL PAY FOR THE WHOLE SEAT, BUT YOU'LL ONLY NEED THE EDGE!!! Now that I'd be willing to participate in. I even know exactly which character I'd enlist. Let's call it the "Cheese Man Competition" B-)
TheMagister 05-09-07, 03:56 PM	Well, shucks and other bad words. A leisure structure strike. Questions: 1) can I just FIRE the darned strikers and hire new ones? One week of reduced efficiency is better than three + doubled upkeep costs. 2) Does doubling the upkeep last forever? 3) Is the doubled upkeep just the structure's upkeep, or that of its upgrades, too?
TelinArtho 05-09-07, 03:58 PM	According to the entry in the random events - the doubling is a permanent adjustment. I have the same questions at TM...
McJarvis 05-09-07, 03:58 PM	1) can I just FIRE the darned strikers and hire new ones? One week of reduced efficiency is better than three + doubled upkeep costs. I'm guessing there are labor laws against firing the striking workers. That aside: do you really want that on your concious? I mean, it's not like it's easy to pay the bills when you're not a gladiator.
Rauul 05-09-07, 04:01 PM	Here's the suggestion I've been mulling over: Did you ever want to try out a far-out, bizarre combination, but you don't have the patience to wait for it to pay off? Ever want to make the perfect build, but you can't afford the credits? For one week's pairings, whoever wants to can create an ECL 13 character with UNLIMITED credits! Yes -- you heard me -- UNLIMITED CREDITS!! A custom staff of Antimagic Field? Why not buy two! Unearthed Arcana classes? No problem! Always had your eye on a 25 HD advanced tyrannosaurus Handle Animal buddy? Now's your chance! Just create your ECL 13 character any which way you want it and enlist it normally for that week's pairings and see the mayhem that ensues! This is a limited time offer -- the character is valid for that week's parings ONLY. There's no prize; just the honour of having your fellow gladiators "ooh" and "aah" over your personal creation. ARENA PATRONS: YOU'LL PAY FOR THE WHOLE SEAT, BUT YOU'LL ONLY NEED THE EDGE!!! Now that i would like to see....
hogarth 05-09-07, 04:02 PM	Questions: 1) can I just FIRE the darned strikers and hire new ones? One week of reduced efficiency is better than three + doubled upkeep costs. If the Guild rules had been written in the U.S. -- probably. But since they were written in Germany -- I doubt it. ;)
Yitzi 05-09-07, 04:03 PM	I'd suggest Enlarge person. I'd say at least 3 castings worth in scrolls. It gets you grapple bonuses (+4 for Size, +1 for Strength) and it gets you damage (Large Sized unarmed damage plus +1 for strength). Admittedly it does put you at -2 to hit. I'm actually going to be using my siangham, not unarmed. And I'm not really planning to use grapple that often-it's a nice thing to have, but more of a plan B, due to low STR and weak BAB. The damage could be nice, but not worth the cost in AC and to hit (-2 to both). suggestion - spend some cash on scrolls of shocking grasp or memorize it - cast it after the mage armor/shield combo then do normal flurry- first attack do regular dmg+shocking graps dmg. Except my primary weapon is siangham, not fists.
Rauul 05-09-07, 04:04 PM	I'm guessing there are labor laws against firing the striking workers. That aside: do you really want that on your concious? I mean, it's not like it's easy to pay the bills when you're not a gladiator. Well i could see the trading company not firing anyone.. maybe a fireball or lightning bolt followed by an animate dead or 4... Or just feeding them to the sharks.. Nothing saids they have to be Offically fired..
hogarth 05-09-07, 04:11 PM	Now that I'd be willing to participate in. I even know exactly which character I'd enlist. Let's call it the "Cheese Man Competition" B-) That particular name did cross my mind... :D Oh, I forgot one of the most important rules: NO WHINING! There's no prize to win and nobody's win/loss ratio is at stake, so all complaints will be stored in the circular file.
McJarvis 05-09-07, 04:11 PM	Well i could see the trading company not firing anyone.. maybe a fireball or lightning bolt followed by an animate dead or 4... Or just feeding them to the sharks.. Nothing saids they have to be Offically fired.. throwing a fireball at them = officially "firing" them. ;)
Rauul 05-09-07, 04:20 PM	throwing a fireball at them = officially "firing" them. ;) use energy Sub and change fire to sonic... would that be shouting?
Usurpator 05-09-07, 05:13 PM	It is meant to be a defensive build. And the offense isn't bad, it just isn't the focus. I understand, my gut instinct is just that it is he is offense is just a little below par at the moment. I can do a few numbers if you want: Assuming all your buffs go well, and you succesfully use Ray of Enfeeblement against Borodin for 4 points of Str damage and Borodin casts only Magic Weapon. Obviously I will have Borodin go on the defensive, either taking Total Defense and/or Fighting Defensively until your Shield goes down and the Enfeeblement stops. I might even throw in a Shield of Faith if I thought it necessary. Daren will need a 17/19 (single attack) or 19/20 to hit. He does 4.5 damage on average, thus needs about 6 blows (barring curing) to kill Borodin. This will take 30 rounds on average. Borodin needs (while enfeeblement and shield still up) a 20 to hit doing 8.5 damage on average. He needs 2-3 blows to kill Daren. This will take 40-60 rounds. Daren thus has the advantage, but only slightly. Unfortunately, both shield and ray (and extra protection spell if applicable) will dissipate within 10 rounds. When this happens Borodin needs only a 12 to hit (and it will be over quickly). In any case, if Daren wants to recast, he not only loses more scrolls, but still suffers a risk of attacks while drawing and casting the scroll, unless he foregoes several rounds of attack to renew his defenses while the old are still active. But even three castings of each shield and ray will not (on average) be enough to slay the crafty dwarf cleric, since overlap will make them last less than the needed 30 rounds. So when reviewing the stats (and assuming everything goes to your plan), Daren will have a slight advantage, but needs to sacrifice a lot of resources to pull it out of the fire. Solon vs. Daren matchup is more difficult to predict, since it is more swingy since there are spells to be used. Still, true strike+scorching ray can be quite dangerous (if the rules still allow it that is, have to update the sheet). But as before, your expeditious retreat lasts one 10 rounds, you will not be able to kill Solon in that time unless I allow it. And for those who remember, casting spells from scrolls when facing an archer character of mine can be quite hazardous even for those with Deflect Arrows. So basically, my concern is that you need a lot of rounds to finish your opponent, rounds in which your buffs and offensive spells might expire.
TheMagister 05-09-07, 05:21 PM	So do scrolls with CL2. It's not all that much more expensive (only double the 25 gp cost).
Yitzi 05-09-07, 06:52 PM	I understand, my gut instinct is just that it is he is offense is just a little below par at the moment. I can do a few numbers if you want: Assuming all your buffs go well, and you succesfully use Ray of Enfeeblement against Borodin for 4 points of Str damage and Borodin casts only Magic Weapon. Obviously I will have Borodin go on the defensive, either taking Total Defense and/or Fighting Defensively until your Shield goes down and the Enfeeblement stops. I might even throw in a Shield of Faith if I thought it necessary. Daren will need a 17/19 (single attack) or 19/20 to hit. He does 4.5 damage on average, thus needs about 6 blows (barring curing) to kill Borodin. This will take 30 rounds on average. Borodin needs (while enfeeblement and shield still up) a 20 to hit doing 8.5 damage on average. He needs 2-3 blows to kill Daren. This will take 40-60 rounds. Daren thus has the advantage, but only slightly. Unfortunately, both shield and ray (and extra protection spell if applicable) will dissipate within 10 rounds. When this happens Borodin needs only a 12 to hit (and it will be over quickly). In any case, if Daren wants to recast, he not only loses more scrolls, but still suffers a risk of attacks while drawing and casting the scroll, unless he foregoes several rounds of attack to renew his defenses while the old are still active. But even three castings of each shield and ray will not (on average) be enough to slay the crafty dwarf cleric, since overlap will make them last less than the needed 30 rounds. So when reviewing the stats (and assuming everything goes to your plan), Daren will have a slight advantage, but needs to sacrifice a lot of resources to pull it out of the fire. Solon vs. Daren matchup is more difficult to predict, since it is more swingy since there are spells to be used. Still, true strike+scorching ray can be quite dangerous (if the rules still allow it that is, have to update the sheet). But as before, your expeditious retreat lasts one 10 rounds, you will not be able to kill Solon in that time unless I allow it. And for those who remember, casting spells from scrolls when facing an archer character of mine can be quite hazardous even for those with Deflect Arrows. So basically, my concern is that you need a lot of rounds to finish your opponent, rounds in which your buffs and offensive spells might expire. Okay, I see how it could be a problem against someone with good AC. I'll just hope he doesn't meet too many such until he can buy a wand of magic missile to help remedy the situation (still not going to be his primary weapon, of course). And, of course, as his level goes up, so does his BAB.
McJarvis 05-09-07, 06:52 PM	RE: Cheese Man competition That particular name did cross my mind... :D Oh, I forgot one of the most important rules: NO WHINING! There's no prize to win and nobody's win/loss ratio is at stake, so all complaints will be stored in the circular file. Wow. Suddenly I'm torn between my super-secret 1st-turn-kill-almost-guaranteed build and doing a rogue. (Set Trap/Assassinate/Poison Use/A high UMD check/Rogue upper level specials could be quite potent.)
Sjiggie 05-09-07, 08:55 PM	I believe it got lost in the discussion but I'm searching for a questlord for Valanthe (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12072066#post12072066). He is going on a full quest to search for the Talariic Texts to enter the Warmind Prc. Someone willing to take it? Thanks Sjiggie
Vathelokai 05-10-07, 01:33 AM	Question in connection to 'Assault - Telling Blow' It's listed in the court rulings that protection from evil does not prevent hold person from working. It says that the source for this is the 3.5 FAQ. I looked all over the FAQ but couldn't find it. Does anyone know where it is?
NiQil 05-10-07, 01:54 AM	Question in connection to 'Assault - Telling Blow' It's listed in the court rulings that protection from evil does not prevent hold person from working. It says that the source for this is the 3.5 FAQ. I looked all over the FAQ but couldn't find it. Does anyone know where it is? The ruling was, at one time, in the FAQ, but was recently removed from the FAQ. But we had come to the came conclusion as a community before the FAQ ever addressed it. I need to adjust the answer slightly next time I get a chance.
Vathelokai 05-10-07, 01:58 AM	Hrmmmm... seems there are night shift elders.... ;) off to bed for me....
Vathelokai 05-10-07, 02:04 AM	Did you ever want to try out a far-out, bizarre combination, but you don't have the patience to wait for it to pay off? Ever want to make the perfect build, but you can't afford the credits? For one week's pairings, whoever wants to can create an ECL 13 character with UNLIMITED credits! Yes -- you heard me -- UNLIMITED CREDITS!! A custom staff of Antimagic Field? Why not buy two! Unearthed Arcana classes? No problem! Always had your eye on a 25 HD advanced tyrannosaurus Handle Animal buddy? Now's your chance! Just create your ECL 13 character any which way you want it and enlist it normally for that week's pairings and see the mayhem that ensues! This is a limited time offer -- the character is valid for that week's parings ONLY. There's no prize; just the honour of having your fellow gladiators "ooh" and "aah" over your personal creation. ARENA PATRONS: YOU'LL PAY FOR THE WHOLE SEAT, BUT YOU'LL ONLY NEED THE EDGE!!! I like this one as well. Needs to get the bugs out, but so does everything. As for tournaments, I like them, but perhaps have them lower level, with SoulLord's suggestions implemented.
Rauul 05-10-07, 02:49 AM	Question in connection to 'Assault - Telling Blow' It's listed in the court rulings that protection from evil does not prevent hold person from working. It says that the source for this is the 3.5 FAQ. I looked all over the FAQ but couldn't find it. Does anyone know where it is? it's in 3.0 FAQ
TheMagister 05-10-07, 09:50 AM	Well, shucks and other bad words. A leisure structure strike. Questions: 1) can I just FIRE the darned strikers and hire new ones? One week of reduced efficiency is better than three + doubled upkeep costs. 2) Does doubling the upkeep last forever? 3) Is the doubled upkeep just the structure's upkeep, or that of its upgrades, too? Bump.
McJarvis 05-10-07, 11:10 AM	Welcome to Gladius, Jejyman! :)
SauroGrenom 05-10-07, 01:25 PM	A new Ask Wizards today overturns our previous ruling on feats and summon monsters from items (such as wands). So augment summons feat does apply to creatures summoned from items. Similarly the rapid summoning from UA conjurer variant should probably also apply to summon spells cast from items.
McJarvis 05-10-07, 01:29 PM	A new Ask Wizards today overturns our previous ruling on feats and summon monsters from items (such as wands). So augment summons feat does apply to creatures summoned from items. Similarly the rapid summoning from UA conjurer variant should probably also apply to summon spells cast from items. Does this mean wild surging can be done through items too?
TelinArtho 05-10-07, 01:38 PM	A new Ask Wizards today overturns our previous ruling on feats and summon monsters from items (such as wands). So augment summons feat does apply to creatures summoned from items. Similarly the rapid summoning from UA conjurer variant should probably also apply to summon spells cast from items. I really don't like the answer to that question... and I'm the one who often plays summoners... But hey - I guess it is something that will have wide-ranging effects and further questions beyond... (such as the wilder question, overchannel, etc)
TelinArtho 05-10-07, 02:06 PM	In addition to TM's unanswered questions above - I need to understand something. When adding a structure to a district, it says the following: You can build structures in any district, adjactend or not, but the district must have at least +1 in the main trait of the structure. So in order to build an Industry structure, the district must have at least +1 IND. Gorthyum, as an example, has Politics +1 and Education +1 as base traits and overall (when combined with structures and CEF's traits) Religion +2, Education +3, Politics +2, Nature +1. Does the quote above determine a building's eligibility for construction based on the district base traits or the traits of the entire district after all modifications? Judging from what information I have, it seems to be the latter - but I do want to make sure first.
SauroGrenom 05-10-07, 02:12 PM	Gorthyum, as an example, has Politics +1 and Education +1 as base traits and overall (when combined with structures and CEF's traits) Religion +2, Education +3, Politics +2, Nature +1. Does the quote above determine a building's eligibility for construction based on the district base traits or the traits of the entire district after all modifications? Judging from what information I have, it seems to be the latter - but I do want to make sure first.From what I understand it is the latter.
TheMagister 05-10-07, 02:37 PM	In addition to TM's unanswered questions above - I need to understand something. When adding a structure to a district, it says the following: Gorthyum, as an example, has Politics +1 and Education +1 as base traits and overall (when combined with structures and CEF's traits) Religion +2, Education +3, Politics +2, Nature +1. Does the quote above determine a building's eligibility for construction based on the district base traits or the traits of the entire district after all modifications? Judging from what information I have, it seems to be the latter - but I do want to make sure first. Remember that a guild's traits don't apply to a district until the guild has "taken control" of the district by building a headquarter there.
TelinArtho 05-10-07, 02:40 PM	Oh I know that. What I was more questioning was whether I could build a structure whose primary trait was a trait on the district gained from another structure. It seems that is the case, but I wanted to double check before I start going too far down that line of thought.
Yitzi 05-10-07, 02:41 PM	If it's the former, then TLT has some things to answer for, so I would presume the latter.
MindWandererB 05-10-07, 02:51 PM	If it's the former, then TLT has some things to answer for, so I would presume the latter. Good catch. Yes, that was the intent when I was discussing these rules with Cat. You can use the construction of one structure to qualify to build another structure. As for the strike... since it is possible to fire corrupt officials, it should be possible to fire strikers. It's not as though we have labor shortage issues. That kind of nerfs the random event, but we don't have any rule to suggest it's not possible.
Zevox 05-10-07, 02:54 PM	Well, shucks and other bad words. A leisure structure strike. Questions: 1) can I just FIRE the darned strikers and hire new ones? One week of reduced efficiency is better than three + doubled upkeep costs. 2) Does doubling the upkeep last forever? 3) Is the doubled upkeep just the structure's upkeep, or that of its upgrades, too? 1) I don't see anything in the rules directly addressing it, but I'd guess no, since that would eliminate much of the point to the event. But you should note that once you double the upkeep, the strike ends, so you don't need to deal with it at all if you double the upkeep immediately. 2) Yup. 3) Just the structure, by the way the rules are written. In addition to TM's unanswered questions above - I need to understand something. When adding a structure to a district, it says the following: You can build structures in any district, adjactend or not, but the district must have at least +1 in the main trait of the structure. So in order to build an Industry structure, the district must have at least +1 IND. Gorthyum, as an example, has Politics +1 and Education +1 as base traits and overall (when combined with structures and CEF's traits) Religion +2, Education +3, Politics +2, Nature +1. Does the quote above determine a building's eligibility for construction based on the district base traits or the traits of the entire district after all modifications? Judging from what information I have, it seems to be the latter - but I do want to make sure first. The latter is what I've always believed it to be, and I don't see anything in the rules indicating otherwise. Zevox
TelinArtho 05-10-07, 03:00 PM	Okay - so Zevox (Guildlords) and MWB (former Guildlords) disagree...
SauroGrenom 05-10-07, 03:41 PM	So, who's going to replace McJarvis as guildmaster of LOY? Speaking of which PSI hasn't had an Asst Guildmaster in a long time. Is there anyone interested?
TelinArtho 05-10-07, 03:46 PM	I think Hirumajoe already picked it up.
McJarvis 05-10-07, 03:51 PM	I think Hirumajoe already picked it up. Hirm will pick it up in the short term-> but he can't do it for very long.
MindWandererB 05-10-07, 03:59 PM	Zevox does have a good point--firing the strikers does defeat much of the purpose. On the other hand, if they're going to quit anyway.... It probably is best to say that the leisure workers' union won't allow replacements until the strike is resolved. Otherwise, the event is pretty pointless. Zevox, will you add that clarification to the random events? Ooh, what a choice, and just after we build our first LEI structure, too. Either we take a 250-gp hit for three weeks, then spend a GAP and 250 LEI-PTS, or we pay an extra 50 gp/week forever. Edit: As for LOY, I'm taking that to the Council, because it's a rather large problem.
Yitzi 05-10-07, 04:32 PM	Or perhaps (and this would be a new rule) you can fire them, but that is something a protest march can be organized about.
McJarvis 05-10-07, 04:42 PM	When you use Alterself, several things happen. I know that one of them is that humans lose their feat & skill points(that are bonus for being human) So do you only lose your extraordinary traits, or do special qualities like energy resistance(plane touched) go away too?
Yitzi 05-10-07, 04:48 PM	By the way, where would I find a basic summary of the history of Gladius?
SauroGrenom 05-10-07, 05:03 PM	By the way, where would I find a basic summary of the history of Gladius? Ask around. Are you looking for a history of the board, or a history of the setting?
Yitzi 05-10-07, 05:05 PM	History of the setting. In particular, what went on in the Year of Hell, and who are these royals the Loyalists make such a big deal about (i.e. how was the dynasty established, what happened to it)? And where did the Nimbus come from?
SauroGrenom 05-10-07, 05:10 PM	History of the setting. In particular, what went on in the Year of Hell, and who are these royals the Loyalists make such a big deal about (i.e. how was the dynasty established, what happened to it)? And where did the Nimbus come from? There's a couple posts with stories written about the year of hell and what happened. Look on the character sheet of Angosh. I think there are links there. As for the other questions, there's nothing written as far as I know.
MindWandererB 05-10-07, 05:12 PM	History of the setting. In particular, what went on in the Year of Hell, and who are these royals the Loyalists make such a big deal about (i.e. how was the dynasty established, what happened to it)? And where did the Nimbus come from? It hasn't been updated in a very long time, but you can begin your search here (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-278068). Edit: Actually, what you probably really want is here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=7092231#post7092231).
Usurpator 05-10-07, 05:42 PM	Ok, I'm looking through these new skill packages. Take for example: Outmaneuver (Defense) So, If Tezca takes a few ranks of the appriopriate skills, he will have a total modifier of +72. Which means that against Lemminkäinen (total mod -16) he can start up to 440 ft. away from his starting box (effectively everywhere)? I see the Corruptor has a total modifier of +0, The Pale Rider +2, Mindrel Starmaster +0. All extreme differences. What is the rule of adapating old(er) characters to conform to the new skill packages? Obviously previously skills like Swim were so useless they were never taken. I also assume that the skills mentioned in the skill packages are now required to be listed on the sheet? Because I see a lot of gladiators without a Swim skill mentioned.....
MindWandererB 05-10-07, 05:47 PM	Ok, I'm looking through these new skill packages. Take for example: Outmaneuver (Defense) So, If Tezca takes a few ranks of the appriopriate skills, he will have a total modifier of +72. Which means that against Lemminkäinen (total mod -16) he can start up to 440 ft. away from his starting box (effectively everywhere)? I see the Corruptor has a total modifier of +0, The Pale Rider +2, Mindrel Starmaster +0. All extreme differences. What is the rule of adapating old(er) characters to conform to the new skill packages? Obviously previously skills like Swim were so useless they were never taken. I also assume that the skills mentioned in the skill packages are now required to be listed on the sheet? Because I see a lot of gladiators without a Swim skill mentioned..... Climb, Balance, and Jump are newly-required, in addition to the old Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot. If you have a pre-Packages character that you'd like to make use of the new rules, post it in the Training Hall and it should be free.
TheMagister 05-10-07, 05:49 PM	As for the strike... since it is possible to fire corrupt officials, it should be possible to fire strikers. It's not as though we have labor shortage issues. That kind of nerfs the random event, but we don't have any rule to suggest it's not possible. Depends on your definition of nerf. Losing efficiency for one week if you can spend the REC or gold to replace the workers immediately is a pretty serious thing. It costs you income and money or REC you already had and a GAP and takes a week to resolve. If you don't have the REC or the money, you're in pretty serious trouble. Something like this hits WAR REALLY hard. We have two LEI structures, one with 40 EXPERT I staff and one with 30 regular staff. The 40 Expert Staff don't just affect my income, they affect my Guild Points generated. I'll lose 1691 - 1260 = 431 gp and 20 NEG-PTS/week on one structure and 1332 - 881 = 451 gp/week from the other. That doesn't count the REC and gold re-investment (if I've got it on hand) of 500 for 10 Expert I staff and 250 for 10 Regular staff, plus 750 gp to process it. And that's a best case scenario for me. Trust me, it's not a big nerf. TM
Usurpator 05-10-07, 05:53 PM	Climb, Balance, and Jump are newly-required, in addition to the old Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot. If you have a pre-Packages character that you'd like to make use of the new rules, post it in the Training Hall and it should be free. Thanks! So, Swim is not a required skill, even though it is listed as an opposable skill in the Outmaneuver package?
Zevox 05-10-07, 06:01 PM	Thanks! So, Swim is not a required skill, even though it is listed as an opposable skill in the Outmaneuver package? Correct. The Outmanuever package just doesn't see enough use to make it worth requiring. My own Featylec Elendi is the only one who has ever used it to my knowledge, and he has only had one fight where he was the defender since it was implemented. Zevox
McJarvis 05-10-07, 06:10 PM	Firing workers that are striking make it very hard to re-hire new ones. Word gets out. On top of that, you're not the first guild that has suffered this. LOY hit it & was told they couldn't fire the workers.
Usurpator 05-10-07, 06:24 PM	Correct. The Outmanuever package just doesn't see enough use to make it worth requiring. My own Featylec Elendi is the only one who has ever used it to my knowledge, and he has only had one fight where he was the defender since it was implemented. Zevox Ok, I understand. Didn't even understand that you can only outmaneuver when you are a Defender. The skill packages do seem to be a bit skewed. Something like Outmaneuver needs 20 ranks, can be foiled by even one opposed skill higher, and can only be used in a fraction of the fights (only in duels, and then only 50% of the fights) and has limited usefullness besides. None of the skills required for outmaneuver have really a good alternative usage. Something like Political Career only requires 10 ranks and is always useful. And diplomacy was a skill that already saw frequent use because of the diplomacy allies. Are the differences in package utility intentional? (Like being careful with new uses for skills not to unbalance the current enviroment?)
Yitzi 05-10-07, 06:24 PM	It hasn't been updated in a very long time, but you can begin your search here (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-278068). Edit: Actually, what you probably really want is here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=7092231#post7092231). Thanks (although the back-and-forth structure of the narrative made it hard to follow until I figured out what was going on), but that doesn't give me the answer to my other questions-the royals and the nimbus. Has anything been written about them?
Usurpator 05-10-07, 06:31 PM	Skill Packages are a combination of two or more skills or abilities that can be used in conjunction with a Free Activity to perform certain activities, many of them affecting your fight in a beneficial way. Other require no Free Activity and automatically come into effect. In order to use them, you must fulfill the skill requirements and pass the "Task" (mentioned in the entry) to benefit from the "Effect". As with all Free Activities, this must go into the title line of your sheet along with your ready status. Automatic Packages obviously don't require that. I can't see in the packages description what can be done together with a Free Activity, and what can be done always. For example, could a character both do 'Rob Store' and 'Burglary' together with Free Activity?
McJarvis 05-10-07, 06:39 PM	I can't see in the packages description what can be done together with a Free Activity, and what can be done always. For example, could a character both do 'Rob Store' and 'Burglary' together with Free Activity? The Attacking/Defending packages can be used with another free activity(as many as you want, even.) (Assassinate, Outmaneuver, etc) The language around the skill packages that says they can be used in conjunction with a free activity just means you can use 2 skills as a free activity to get an effect. (Rob Store, etc)
Zevox 05-10-07, 06:44 PM	Ok, I understand. Didn't even understand that you can only outmaneuver when you are a Defender. The skill packages do seem to be a bit skewed. Something like Outmaneuver needs 20 ranks, can be foiled by even one opposed skill higher, and can only be used in a fraction of the fights (only in duels, and then only 50% of the fights) and has limited usefullness besides. None of the skills required for outmaneuver have really a good alternative usage. Something like Political Career only requires 10 ranks and is always useful. And diplomacy was a skill that already saw frequent use because of the diplomacy allies. Are the differences in package utility intentional? (Like being careful with new uses for skills not to unbalance the current enviroment?) Well, if you can't fly, the Climb, Jump, and Balance skills are actually quite useful on a number of maps. Climb + Balance lets you move in canopy of the forest or across the rooftops of the city, Jump lets you jump the rivers in the forest, the water in the sewer, between the roof of the city, across the lava of the temple, and so on. Otherwise you're right about that. As for the differences in their usefulness, I guess thats just how it worked out. Because they initially looked quite useful (free surprise rounds, prebuff rounds, or picking where you start on the map looked like a big deal), Cat decided the attack/defend packages would require 4 skills each. The others, which have no impact on fights themselves, weren't seen as needing that much in the way of prerequisites, so they don't have them. I can't see in the packages description what can be done together with a Free Activity, and what can be done always. For example, could a character both do 'Rob Store' and 'Burglary' together with Free Activity? The sblocks they're in in the rules post indicate which take free activities and which are automatic. The ones you listed are both free activities, so you could only do one. Things like a diplomatic career and the attack/defend packages are automatic. Zevox
Vathelokai 05-10-07, 08:27 PM	Thanks (although the back-and-forth structure of the narrative made it hard to follow until I figured out what was going on), but that doesn't give me the answer to my other questions-the royals and the nimbus. Has anything been written about them? In truth, the Royals were created at the same moment the LOY guild was started. It had no 'real' story background, just a plausible setup. As for the nimbus, I've done some story stuff with it, but I don't think there's an official line on it. It was a game mechanic first, and never was fully RPed out. I'll post some history stuff (as far as I know it) later tonight; have to run errands right now.
Yitzi 05-10-07, 08:31 PM	In truth, the Royals were created at the same moment the LOY guild was started. It had no 'real' story background, just a plausible setup. As for the nimbus, I've done some story stuff with it, but I don't think there's an official line on it. It was a game mechanic first, and never was fully RPed out. I'll post some history stuff (as far as I know it) later tonight; have to run errands right now. Thanks.
Zevox 05-10-07, 08:37 PM	In truth, the Royals were created at the same moment the LOY guild was started. It had no 'real' story background, just a plausible setup. I don't think thats entirely true. Cat indicated when the idea was first proposed that the city had been a monarchy in the past (before the Year of Hell I think), there just wasn't much background for the monarchy period itself. @ Yitzi - If you're interested, I wrote up some information on the current state of the Gladosian Noble Houses (mostly because I'm the only whos ever done anything with them) here. Some more detailed information on House Durrol (which was the first one I came up with, as part of Ceilia's background) can be found in my character backgrounds post here. Zevox
Yitzi 05-10-07, 08:39 PM	No thanks. Just the monarchy and the nimbus (and perhaps what the Celestials are doing in Gladius)
Zevox 05-10-07, 08:44 PM	The Nimbus is a whole kettle of fish my friend. How precisely it was originally introduced I'm not sure, but some information on its nature can be found by reading the quest A Nimbus of Light, run by King Uther (one of the best Questlords we've ever had, who had a huge story arc planned for the entire world in which Gladius exists... man I miss him). If anyone had a comprehensive idea of what the Nimbus was, it was him. Zevox
Yitzi 05-10-07, 08:48 PM	It seems to only have the one page...in any case my question was less about the nature of the Nimbus and more about its origin (and does it have anything to do with the Celestials' activity)
Zevox 05-10-07, 08:53 PM	Yup, it was a short quest (only two weeks instead of 3 - it occurred during a period of down time for the forums), but theres info in there about how the Nimbus works that are suggestive of its origins. I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with the CEF though. Certainly I've never seen anything to suggest it did. And if you want to know about the CEF's present doings, I'd suggest stopping by their Guild thread - that'd be the best place to find out :) . Zevox
Yitzi 05-10-07, 09:01 PM	Actually, I'm more interested in what the celestials (not just CEF) are doing in Gladius in the first place. I doubt they get involved in the politics of every city. And even if the CEF has nothing to do with the nimbus, it sounds like something that most likely had organized celestial involvement in its creation.
Zevox 05-10-07, 09:05 PM	*blinks* Um, aside from the CEF, theres no Celestials in the city as far as I know. The mortal CEF has ties to the planar ones, but thats about it. And what hints to the Nimbus' origin that quest of KU's gives indicates that Celestials had nothing to do with it. Elementals seem to be tied to it heavily, and the mysterious God of Life Ajj-Kofal, but not Celestials. Zevox
Yitzi 05-10-07, 09:17 PM	okay, thanks.
MitzaVolchenko 05-10-07, 09:27 PM	*posted on the tavern wall by a small humanoid draped in black veils...for the illiterate among the denizens of Gladius, a smal cantrip causes the parchment to read itself upon being studied* Seeking individuals to fulfill a contract. Some travel required. Must agree to being bonded with a reputable agency. Risks include loss of life and/or limb. Recompense comensurate with degree of successful completion of contract. Hazard pay a possibility. Must be able to follow instructions. Contact Mssrs. Grogan, Grogan and Vertix. I am looking for a campaign group ECL 5-7. This campaign is all about rp and personal gain. It is not linked in any way to a guild at this time. If a group of guildmates responds, I would consider linking it to a guild. I would like to start it in a couple of weeks pending review by Pitlords and enough interest. PM me if you have any interest. Alignment is not restricted, though it might be rough to have a pally and anecro in the same party.
Yitzi 05-10-07, 09:32 PM	There are good necros too, you know (not many, but some)
Rauul 05-10-07, 09:36 PM	There are good necros too, you know (not many, but some) Only know of 2 active necros... and niether are good... of the other 2 that are semi active (gravedigger and pale rider) niether are really what a paladin would want to hang around Hmm personnel gain.. and Rp.. the corrupting of something would be nice and well every wizard is in it for personnel power... Hmm have to think about this for corrupter
Zevox 05-10-07, 09:44 PM	Hm... I'm torn. I'd really be interested in going on that with Mithos, but his RP goals aren't really compatible with leaving the city for an extended length of time, and I'm hesitant to take him away from LOY while they're in danger of dying out. Still, I guess him being around won't change whether LOY picks up a new Guildmaster or not. Which just leaves whether this is compatible with his RP goals. Any chance you could post a little more info on that the campaign is about Mitza? As for good necromancers, my new Wizard Kathren is actually going to have a wizard cohort who I'm considering making a CG Necromancer/Loremaster (Necromancer since its Kathren's one prohibited school). I've got a few ideas for how to work him I'm still tossing around the back of my mind. Zevox
MitzaVolchenko 05-10-07, 10:38 PM	Honestly it is an old school meet in a bar go out and try for the prize while dealing with disparate party members. There are some twists and turns to what I have plotted out, but I wanted to leave it open ended as far as motivations. For isntance, planning to go out and recover ancient tomes would be very TAO Heading out to save an endangered grove of nymph trees would be very TLT. Heading out to slay the demon would be very CEF. I would rather run this one with only the possibility of a decent reward. As individual characters apply, I will feed them individual bits of possible motivation, but there is definite mystery involved in this one, so I don't really want to post a summary in public...ruin the surprise for the unlucky saps that decide to leave the Nimbus...err...I mean ruin the surprise for the lucky intrepid adventurers who are wise enough to see a good deal when it is before them. There is certainly latitude for add-ons and sidetracks. I am used to having a group do wonky things which send them down a completely differnet path from the one that I envisioned.
Zevox 05-10-07, 11:30 PM	I see... tempting. Though I've thought of another issue. After his fight this week, win or lose, Mithos hits level 6, and at that point I had planned on him going on a quest to get two Hippogriff handle animal allies to serve as mounts. Then he'll have to train them, which will take 3 weeks each. So, time frame troubles there. I guess he probably can't go after all then. Zevox
Usurpator 05-11-07, 03:39 AM	The sblocks they're in in the rules post indicate which take free activities and which are automatic. The ones you listed are both free activities, so you could only do one. Things like a diplomatic career and the attack/defend packages are automatic. Zevox Thanks, that makes sense. I was confused by the 'in conjunction with'. Can I suggest the following text to replace the current one: Skill Packages are a combination of two or more skills or abilities that can be used to perform certain activities, many of them affecting your fight in a beneficial way. Some skill packages require a Free Activity to perform while others automatically come into effect when the conditions are met. Skill packages that require a Free Activity must be mentioned in the title line of your sheet (as with all Free Activities). In order to use them, you must fulfill the skill requirements and pass the "Task" (mentioned in the entry) to benefit from the "Effect". The following Skill Packages are available: Also, the requirements would actually benefit from having a heading as such. And things mentioned under Task are usually requirements and not 'tasks'. Also, some skills seem to be abbreviated (Open, Sleight, Gather), it would be clearer if the full skill name is mentioned.
Zevox 05-11-07, 03:55 AM	Actually, MWB opened up a thread for posting just such suggestions for improving things around here. Repost those suggestions in his massive changes thread and they'll probably get changed. Zevox
Sjiggie 05-11-07, 08:38 AM	@ Mitza Valanthe would be interested to join that campaign but he is a partial paladin. Otherise Zerth can join in but I was about to retire him. -Sjiggie
Vathelokai 05-11-07, 10:03 AM	general announcement. there was a death in the familiy. Things are under control, but I'll be sparse for the next week or so. Probably be on durring the weekend for a short time, just to keep my mind off things. -Vath
TheMagister 05-11-07, 10:05 AM	Condolences, brother. God's comfort to you and your family. TM
SauroGrenom 05-11-07, 10:43 AM	general announcement. there was a death in the familiy. Things are under control, but I'll be sparse for the next week or so. Probably be on durring the weekend for a short time, just to keep my mind off things. -Vath Sorry to hear that Vath. Be with family if possible, and try to take some time for yourself during these tough times.
Erithmu 05-11-07, 12:10 PM	*posted on the tavern wall by a small humanoid draped in black veils...for the illiterate among the denizens of Gladius, a smal cantrip causes the parchment to read itself upon being studied* Seeking individuals to fulfill a contract. Some travel required. Must agree to being bonded with a reputable agency. Risks include loss of life and/or limb. Recompense comensurate with degree of successful completion of contract. Hazard pay a possibility. Must be able to follow instructions. Contact Mssrs. Grogan, Grogan and Vertix. I am looking for a campaign group ECL 5-7. This campaign is all about rp and personal gain. It is not linked in any way to a guild at this time. If a group of guildmates responds, I would consider linking it to a guild. I would like to start it in a couple of weeks pending review by Pitlords and enough interest. PM me if you have any interest. Alignment is not restricted, though it might be rough to have a pally and anecro in the same party. Want ... to ... build ... character ... must ... resist .......
TheMagister 05-11-07, 12:42 PM	I remember the good old days when things like this came up and the elders just shrugged & said, "Let's face it, Bards and Rogues just are not made for the arena" instead of trying to pretend like Rogues are actually balanced in the format. -_- One of these days I'll try out another rogue. The White Hand really had potential - I think I could make a successful rogue. I'll have to think on it. I've been considering adding another character for awhile (now that Hood's approaching ECL10).
McJarvis 05-11-07, 12:53 PM	One of these days I'll try out another rogue. The White Hand really had potential - I think I could make a successful rogue. I'll have to think on it. I've been considering adding another character for awhile (now that Hood's approaching ECL10). UMD'rs are tough in this format since you can easily play a Cleric 1(Magic Domain)/(WhateverX) and easily get most of the benefits of UMD(easy wand use) At least at the tabletop there are usually associated Gods and whatnot that you have to get around. (and various artifacts/fun things to play with UMD ;) ) PS-> If you're really interested in playing The White Hand, I know someone who really likes skill-based characters that wouldn't mind making a Rogue team....I hear he even has a rogue character that just got build & recently stepped down from some responsibilities on these boards. <_< >_>
MitzaVolchenko 05-11-07, 12:57 PM	Want ... to ... build ... character ... must ... resist ....... lol Hey I built Willowmoon just to join Cat's campaign...never got around to it as he started before I could squeeze a cohort quest in :)
Erithmu 05-11-07, 01:12 PM	lol Hey I built Willowmoon just to join Cat's campaign...never got around to it as he started before I could squeeze a cohort quest in :) See the real problem then becomes ... which character do I build. I have like 3 caster builds, a couple of archer builds, I could pull my Paladin/Cleric out of retirement etc etc ... It isn't the time commitment of the campaign, it is the rushed time in building the character to go on the campaign.
McJarvis 05-11-07, 01:15 PM	I've seen many asimar out there, has anyone seen tiefling builds in the CoCo?
TheMagister 05-11-07, 01:16 PM	Zwei comes to mind.
MitzaVolchenko 05-11-07, 01:16 PM	See the real problem then becomes ... which character do I build. I have like 3 caster builds, a couple of archer builds, I could pull my Paladin/Cleric out of retirement etc etc ... It isn't the time commitment of the campaign, it is the rushed time in building the character to go on the campaign. That can be worked with. I would like to get rolling soon, but I am not attached to any single start date. NiQil is doing a fresh build, adjustable to ECL of rest of party. TM is tossing the idea around, so really until I have a group that seems solid, it won't start.
TelinArtho 05-11-07, 01:17 PM	I've seen many asimar out there, has anyone seen tiefling builds in the CoCo? Archie Longbow is a memorable one. Wait... was he an aasimar or tiefling...? I believe Luni had a tiefling as well - don't remember what though - psionic I'm pretty sure. Those are the two that spring to mind...
MitzaVolchenko 05-11-07, 01:20 PM	general announcement. there was a death in the familiy. Things are under control, but I'll be sparse for the next week or so. Probably be on durring the weekend for a short time, just to keep my mind off things. -Vath *hugs*
Erithmu 05-11-07, 01:20 PM	I've seen many asimar out there, has anyone seen tiefling builds in the CoCo? Zewi, Sendora (Asran's Cohort), Psibeast, I remember a tiefling wizard that had a perfect record for about 8 fights by Long Archer. There is a Teifling wizard/EK in the old character listings that probably is inaccessable (Aku) Telin got it: Archie
MitzaVolchenko 05-11-07, 01:21 PM	I've seen many asimar out there, has anyone seen tiefling builds in the CoCo? "Did someone inquire of my lineage?" the small woman twists herself into a meditative pretzel and smiles benignly.
Erithmu 05-11-07, 01:24 PM	That can be worked with. I would like to get rolling soon, but I am not attached to any single start date. NiQil is doing a fresh build, adjustable to ECL of rest of party. TM is tossing the idea around, so really until I have a group that seems solid, it won't start. *nods* Keep me informed. I have been a part of the last 3 Campaigns that have been through the CoCo, so I think I will defer for the time being, if you have an open slot in 2 weeks swing me a PM and I'll conjure something up. Or depending on how Dragon Hunting goes, I might just send my Cloistered Cleric along.
TelinArtho 05-11-07, 01:25 PM	Zewi, Sendora (Asran's Cohort), Psibeast, I remember a tiefling wizard that had a perfect record for about 8 fights by Long Archer. There is a Teifling wizard/EK in the old character listings that probably is inaccessable (Aku) Telin got it: Archie I had completely forgotten about Zwei - and the other two I didn't know they were tieflings... In any case - sounds like McJ has his answer...
TelinArtho 05-11-07, 01:30 PM	*nods* Keep me informed. I have been a part of the last 3 Campaigns that have been through the CoCo, so I think I will defer for the time being, if you have an open slot in 2 weeks swing me a PM and I'll conjure something up. Or depending on how Dragon Hunting goes, I might just send my Cloistered Cleric along. Are you worried that Bulgar might die and therefore you won't have a dragon hunter to go with anymore? (I sure am...)
Zevox 05-11-07, 01:33 PM	I've seen many asimar out there, has anyone seen tiefling builds in the CoCo? Asran's cohort, Senorda, is technically a Teifling Transmuter (going Loremaster). RP is a whole different story though. Edit: Actually, I've seen far fewer Aasimars around here than I have Tieflings. Dameon Leone and Barthleby are the only ones I remember. Zevox
Erithmu 05-11-07, 01:38 PM	Are you worried that Bulgar might die and therefore you won't have a dragon hunter to go with anymore? (I sure am...) A little, I think if we had a better source of cold damage we might be a bit better off. Trip check of +9 vs your (going to be +11) ... yea I'm a little concerned here, that and Vath builds some wicked dragons ... and I think Bulgar's name is starting to get around to the dragon community, so they only get more and more prepared.
TelinArtho 05-11-07, 01:53 PM	Well - this is the challenge... I am certainly hoping he can get high enough leveled to fight the blue dragon that felled Daeren - but every success is a nice feat to overcome. I knew when I designed the progression of the dragons that this level would be particularly difficult though... but what's the fun if it isn't :)?
McJarvis 05-11-07, 01:55 PM	Asran's cohort, Senorda, is technically a Teifling Transmuter (going Loremaster). RP is a whole different story though. Edit: Actually, I've seen far fewer Aasimars around here than I have Tieflings. Dameon Leone and Barthleby are the only ones I remember. Zevox Leif Goldeneye is one as well, I believe. I was going off my knowledge of gladiators that are still on the roster that have done well. If anyone has a link to this Archie Longbow fellow, it'd be much appreciated. No graveyard sightings at all...
SauroGrenom 05-11-07, 02:10 PM	Leif Goldeneye is one as well, I believe. I was going off my knowledge of gladiators that are still on the roster that have done well. If anyone has a link to this Archie Longbow fellow, it'd be much appreciated. No graveyard sightings at all... I don't have a link, but I can tell you how to find him... Look up Rebreg my first character in the graveyard. Archie is one or two posts above Rebreg on the character's thread.
TelinArtho 05-11-07, 02:11 PM	Leif Goldeneye is one as well, I believe. I was going off my knowledge of gladiators that are still on the roster that have done well. If anyone has a link to this Archie Longbow fellow, it'd be much appreciated. No graveyard sightings at all... Ask and ye shall receive: Archie Longbow
SauroGrenom 05-11-07, 02:12 PM	Leif Goldeneye is one as well, I believe. I was going off my knowledge of gladiators that are still on the roster that have done well. If anyone has a link to this Archie Longbow fellow, it'd be much appreciated. No graveyard sightings at all... Also Archie relied on alter self and polymorph. He got beat once after we revised the polymorph rules, and the player never came back.
TelinArtho 05-11-07, 02:14 PM	Also Archie relied on alter self and polymorph. He got beat once after we revised the polymorph rules, and the player never came back. More importantly - he existed before the expendables cap... ECL6 with 3100+gp worth of expendables...
McJarvis 05-11-07, 02:21 PM	Wow...that much more helpful than I thought it would be. It's pretty much the exact build that Davian is(one of my old characters I'm thinking of activating finally.)
TelinArtho 05-11-07, 02:33 PM	Other than the aforementioned link to Archie, here's the rest of the Tiefling characters (not including Senorda... she's a cohort): Augemyn Leonne - Tiefling Wizard 5/EK 4 (ECL10) - Huan - looks like he was under construction though. Narikia Tiefling Enchanter 2 (ECL3) - Naerdaloth Davian Tiefling Wizard 2 (ECL3) - McJarvis... Karisia Tiefling Egoist 4 (ECL5) - Luni Tenhelrim Tiefling Egoist 2 (ECL3) - michael_noah Zwei und'Vierzig Tiefling Monk 6 (ECL7) - MitzaVolcheko Psibeast Tiefling Egoist 8 (ECL9) - Vathelokai
Usurpator 05-11-07, 02:36 PM	Karisia Tiefling Egoist 4 (ECL5) - Luni Tenhelrim Tiefling Egoist 2 (ECL3) - michael_noah Psibeast Tiefling Egoist 8 (ECL9) - Vathelokai Fairly self-centered bunch these Tieflings, no? ;)
McJarvis 05-11-07, 02:45 PM	Well, glad I wasn't trying to keep Davian a secret or anything. *quick edit takes out some trade-secrets* ;) But yeah. I'm debating on forking over 5 creds to boost him to ECL 4. Alterself is obviously a huge draw.
TheMagister 05-11-07, 02:48 PM	Were you here for Auburn and her polymorphed familiar? Twin Remorhazi...
Zevox 05-11-07, 02:50 PM	Were you here for Auburn and her polymorphed familiar? Twin Remorhazi... Auburn? Wasn't it Va'ria who was pulling that stunt? Or did both of them do it and I just never realized Auburn was as well? Zevox
TheMagister 05-11-07, 02:53 PM	I thought it was Auburn...
Vathelokai 05-11-07, 02:55 PM	It was va'ria. I was the pitlord in the fight. Auburn prefered to polymorph her familiar into a remorhaz, herself into an annix hag; then ride the remorhaz around. :D
TheMagister 05-11-07, 02:56 PM	It was va'ria. I was the pitlord in the fight. Auburn prefered to polymorph her familiar into a remorhaz, herself into an annix hag; then ride the remorhaz around. :D AH! That was the trick.
TelinArtho 05-11-07, 02:57 PM	Well, glad I wasn't trying to keep Davian a secret or anything. *quick edit takes out some trade-secrets* ;) But yeah. I'm debating on forking over 5 creds to boost him to ECL 4. Alterself is obviously a huge draw. Nothing's safe from me... I have a lot of threads saved locally... Of course - to do that I had to save the character's thread... but at least it took less time than the old fights thread...
McJarvis 05-11-07, 03:00 PM	@TM: Polymorph wasn't considered a problem back when I was around. Probably because no one was at the 7+ ECL to abuse it yet....? Big problems we had were with Jihndl's ghost Ana.
Vathelokai 05-11-07, 03:00 PM	EDIT I was wrong; it was Aranor Haerdonin - one of Sindorins other wizards. If anyone wants to look it up.
McJarvis 05-11-07, 03:09 PM	You know, I'm supprised there are not more Tiefling Wizards or even Aasimir Bards out there, given the relative strength of Alterself paired with outsider form & the martial weapon prof. Not to mention the nice produce flame-proofed nature of them.
McJarvis 05-11-07, 03:11 PM	On a *completely* unrelated topic... :emp: Does anyone know when the Xill actually bite for that paralyze attack to work?
MitzaVolchenko 05-11-07, 03:13 PM	@TM: Polymorph wasn't considered a problem back when I was around. Probably because no one was at the 7+ ECL to abuse it yet....? Big problems we had were with Jihndl's ghost Ana. Ah the ghost... *grumples about WotC being stupid about polymorph*
SauroGrenom 05-11-07, 03:15 PM	On a *completely* unrelated topic... :emp: Does anyone know when the Xill actually bite for that paralyze attack to work?Perhaps you should ask over in the adult content boards...:eek:
McJarvis 05-11-07, 03:16 PM	Perhaps you should ask over in the adult content boards...:eek: Oh no, I fell for that once. It just ended up in me reading far too long in the night about the religions of make-believe lands. -_-
SauroGrenom 05-11-07, 03:23 PM	Assistant Guildmaster Needed! PSI needs a new assistant guildmaster. We've had DSugui on the roster as the assistant, but he's been gone for months now. So just in case, I'd like to have a backup. If anyone is interested, please send me a PM.
TheMagister 05-11-07, 03:34 PM	Assistant Guildmaster Needed! PSI WAR needs a new assistant guildmaster. We've had DSugui not a darned soul on the roster as the assistant. , but he's been gone for months now. So just in case, I'd like to have a backup. If anyone is interested, please send me a PM. For instance, if there's somebody on the board who's already somewhat experienced in matters Guildmaster-y...someone who recently stepped down from such a responsibility and might be interested in a back up position, such a person should definitely send me a PM. Such a person would be hella appreciated as a sounding board. ... But that's all a "for-instance". <.< >.> riiight.
TelinArtho 05-11-07, 03:34 PM	On a *completely* unrelated topic... :emp: Does anyone know when the Xill actually bite for that paralyze attack to work? Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a xill must hit with one or more claw attacks. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. It receives a +2 bonus on the grapple check for each claw that hits. If it wins the grapple check and maintains the hold in the next round, it automatically bites the foe at that time. The bite deals no damage but injects a paralyzing venom. Looks to me like it is the round after the improved grab happens.
Macbrea 05-11-07, 03:36 PM	Oddly, does that need any type of test for it. Or is that bite consider and auto hit?
McJarvis 05-11-07, 03:37 PM	Ah, thanks Telin. After I saw the improved grab just involved the claws I got bored and stopped reading. Oops!
TheMagister 05-11-07, 03:37 PM	It has to a) hit the claw attack, b) win the initial grapple check, and c) maintain the grapple until its turn next round. Then it can bite. Out of curiousity, is Hood up against four of those?
McJarvis 05-11-07, 03:43 PM	If I do this, as soon as I hit ECL 7 or 8 I'm going to start going on full-quests specifically designed to implant eggs in all my political enemies using the xill's (ex) attacks. :schemes:
TelinArtho 05-11-07, 04:06 PM	McJ - that sounds an awful lot like a person bent on "spreading his seed" around... almost an episode of Law and Order: SVU... @TM - Possibly... just possibly...
templer10 05-11-07, 04:07 PM	question when a large FLYING creature is added the half dragon templte- does it use it's original fly speed and manuverability or the half dragons (which is worse).
Rauul 05-11-07, 04:07 PM	If I do this, as soon as I hit ECL 7 or 8 I'm going to start going on full-quests specifically designed to implant eggs in all my political enemies using the xill's (ex) attacks. :schemes: Take that thinking to the Adult boards you pervert... We don't care where you put your seed!!!... TMI
McJarvis 05-11-07, 04:11 PM	Take that thinking to the Adult boards you pervert... We don't care where you put your seed!!!... TMI Too many implants? :-)
TheMagister 05-11-07, 04:14 PM	Can you ever have too many?
SauroGrenom 05-11-07, 04:18 PM	question when a large FLYING creature is added the half dragon templte- does it use it's original fly speed and manuverability or the half dragons (which is worse). Just use the the original flying ability if it's better. The Half Fiendish and Half Celestial template have this language, but it's absent from the Half Dragon.
templer10 05-11-07, 04:20 PM	oh - can i do same initiative roll for all 3 giant wasps? (first time i had to deal with multiple random monsters).
Zevox 05-11-07, 04:25 PM	oh - can i do same initiative roll for all 3 giant wasps? (first time i had to deal with multiple random monsters). Presuming its a them vs 1 foe, it makes difference what order they go in, so go ahead. If theres multiple foes involved though, the order may matter, so no. Zevox
templer10 05-11-07, 04:27 PM	Presuming its a them vs 1 foe, it makes difference what order they go in, so go ahead. If theres multiple foes involved though, the order may matter, so no. Zevox it's 3 giant wasps VS 1 gladiator + cohort - still count as 1?
Zevox 05-11-07, 04:40 PM	it's 3 giant wasps VS 1 gladiator + cohort - still count as 1? Presuming the gladiator and cohort aren't acting on the same initiative (i.e. one isn't the mount for the other), nope. Zevox
hogarth 05-11-07, 09:58 PM	oh - can i do same initiative roll for all 3 giant wasps? (first time i had to deal with multiple random monsters). Lots of people do it. My personal philosophy is to use the same initiative roll unless a player requests otherwise. Even so, I might have them all delay to act on the same count anyways.
Salrantol 05-12-07, 06:46 AM	UMD'rs are tough in this format since you can easily play a Cleric 1(Magic Domain)/(WhateverX) and easily get most of the benefits of UMD(easy wand use) At least at the tabletop there are usually associated Gods and whatnot that you have to get around. (and various artifacts/fun things to play with UMD ;) ) PS-> If you're really interested in playing The White Hand, I know someone who really likes skill-based characters that wouldn't mind making a Rogue team....I hear he even has a rogue character that just got build & recently stepped down from some responsibilities on these boards. <_< >_>Actually, UMD wasn't so bad before the expendables cap, it made for a ridiculously diverse caster. Just one look at all the stuff Barak Brigandslayer had and you'll see the potential. Of course, you can also look at his bottom line and see that it's also a very expensive way to play the game.
Salrantol 05-12-07, 07:17 AM	If you buy a custom magic item with credits (i.e. brilliant feathered cap of Use Magic Device +3), and later increase the bonus, does that increase cost credits again?
hogarth 05-12-07, 09:18 AM	If you buy a custom magic item with credits (i.e. brilliant feathered cap of Use Magic Device +3), and later increase the bonus, does that increase cost credits again? Yes, if the new bonus level would cost credits to buy. But it wouldn't cost credits to raise a Headband of Intellect +1 to a Headband of Intellect +2, of course.
McJarvis 05-12-07, 09:46 AM	If you buy a custom magic item with credits (i.e. brilliant feathered cap of Use Magic Device +3), and later increase the bonus, does that increase cost credits again? It does, but I'm not sure what the credit cost should be. UMD devices cost 10 credits to create(because there is no example of a UMD device in the game rules & there is no example of a bonus for a UMD device in the game), but I feel like they should only be 5 creds to upgrade. (only changing the bonus) RE: UMD users: Oh, I know. Back in my day I ran straight-ticket Experts to take advantage of UMD/UPD combinations. I suppose a Shaper 1/(Rogue-Bard) X would have been more efficient, though. -_- If you really wanna do a straight-ticket UMD user, try out the half-elf paragon. +2 bonus on all cha checks & a +2 to cha at level 3 to top it off :D
Zevox 05-12-07, 03:00 PM	Wow, today's Order of the Stick (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html) just gave me a great idea for Ceilia. I think I know what her level 12 feat will be now. :D Zevox
McJarvis 05-12-07, 04:18 PM	Wow, today's Order of the Stick (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html) just gave me a great idea for Ceilia. I think I know what her level 12 feat will be now. :D Zevox I often wonder whether the GiantItp guy would be good at CoCo.
Vathelokai 05-12-07, 09:42 PM	*posted on the tavern wall by a small humanoid draped in black veils...for the illiterate among the denizens of Gladius, a smal cantrip causes the parchment to read itself upon being studied* Seeking individuals to fulfill a contract. Some travel required. Must agree to being bonded with a reputable agency. Risks include loss of life and/or limb. Recompense comensurate with degree of successful completion of contract. Hazard pay a possibility. Must be able to follow instructions. Contact Mssrs. Grogan, Grogan and Vertix. I am looking for a campaign group ECL 5-7. This campaign is all about rp and personal gain. It is not linked in any way to a guild at this time. If a group of guildmates responds, I would consider linking it to a guild. I would like to start it in a couple of weeks pending review by Pitlords and enough interest. PM me if you have any interest. Alignment is not restricted, though it might be rough to have a pally and anecro in the same party. I'm tempted. Zodiac (NE enchanter) is my only ECL 6, and it'd be fun to get some mileage from the DC 20 charm person spells for a change. I have a couple characters in development (see sig), but they are more combat oriented than skill monkey. But then I'm already in a campaign. If you're needing a fourth, then I'll hop in, but I'd like to give everyone else a chance.
Vathelokai 05-12-07, 09:47 PM	It does, but I'm not sure what the credit cost should be. UMD devices cost 10 credits to create(because there is no example of a UMD device in the game rules & there is no example of a bonus for a UMD device in the game), but I feel like they should only be 5 creds to upgrade. (only changing the bonus) RE: UMD users: Oh, I know. Back in my day I ran straight-ticket Experts to take advantage of UMD/UPD combinations. I suppose a Shaper 1/(Rogue-Bard) X would have been more efficient, though. -_- If you really wanna do a straight-ticket UMD user, try out the half-elf paragon. +2 bonus on all cha checks & a +2 to cha at level 3 to top it off :D I tried the shaper/rogue with Hassan Sabbah (see sig). Worked sometimes, didn't work other times. I think human paragon straight rogue (UPD as the 'human' skill) or straight bard or psion or whatever would overcome some of Hassan's problems. He was really nerfed when the new skill packages showed up, and the expendables cap, and .... blah. I got a bit irked by having to run him into the training hall every month. Rogue or bard human paragon I think. Lots of skills to take advantage of the skill packages (expecially the ones that let you get free items or exceed the expendables cap), and the potential for allies. Hard to run, but lots of potential.
McJarvis 05-12-07, 10:08 PM	Davian (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6686849&postcount=346) has arrived(officially). Expect many losses until he hits ECL 4. I haven't filled out all of his equipment: he's a surprisingly equipment-independent build. Usually I run out of gp before I run out of ideas. I'm debating between a +3 hp familiar and a +2 reflex saves familiar.
Vathelokai 05-12-07, 10:17 PM	Davian (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6686849&postcount=346) has arrived(officially). Expect many losses until he hits ECL 4. You could grab some CL3 scrolls (alter self mephit!). The CL check to use them is only DC 4. I assume your still working on equipment? Didn't see a spellbook; I think memorizing shield, truestrike, or magic weapon would get you more mileage than a second sleep spell (learn from Zodiac...) . EDIT TAO post 13 - users guide to alter self has a list of what your outsider can get out of alterself.
McJarvis 05-12-07, 10:18 PM	You could grab some CL3 scrolls (alter self mephit!). The CL check to use them is only DC 4. I assume your still working on equipment? Didn't see a spellbook; I think memorizing shield, truestrike, or magic weapon would get you more mileage than a second sleep spell (learn from Zodiac...) . I thought you couldn't turn into 3HD critters until you had 3HD? Thanks for the input on the sleep spell: It really isn't a save or die build, but I thought the option would be nice. I'll think on the magic weapon thing. edit-> Does alterself change the size of your weapon, or do I need to be packing a small-sized bow eventually?
templer10 05-12-07, 10:22 PM	Davian (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6686849&postcount=346) has arrived(officially). Expect many losses until he hits ECL 4. I haven't filled out all of his equipment: he's a surprisingly equipment-independent build. Usually I run out of gp before I run out of ideas. I'm debating between a +3 hp familiar and a +2 reflex saves familiar. you cant use shield and silent image - not even on scrolls. and also- having illusin and abjuration as opposed schools? :confused: :eek: :weep:
McJarvis 05-12-07, 10:23 PM	you cant use shield and silent image - not even on scrolls. and also- having illusin and abjuration as opposed schools? :confused: :eek: :weep: That's a typo. I originally planned on making him a transmuter, then changed him to a regular wizard. Decided I wanted versatility more than giving up any school. (and if you think about it: being a specialist wizard in CoCo is really just gaining a scroll of every spell level that you can cast every 3FC. Gives you more GP[scrolls], less options. I'd rather have more options, less GP.) At tabletop being a specialist is a no-brainer (party backup&expendables not used much)..this format is a tad bit different, though.
NiQil 05-12-07, 10:30 PM	Alright...here's the character I designed for Mitza's campaign. I give you Garet Jax Rip him up...but keep in mind that he will probably never see the inside of the arena. He is designed as a campaign/quest character.
McJarvis 05-12-07, 10:31 PM	Alright...here's the character I designed for Mitza's campaign. I give you Garet Jax Rip him up...but keep in mind that he will probably never see the inside of the arena. He is designed as a campaign/quest character. You should get a light warhorse. :::biiiiiig wink:::
McJarvis 05-12-07, 10:33 PM	@Vath: Just in case you missed it Can I buy a CL3 Alterself scroll & use it to change into a mephit? My guy only has 2 HD. I thought the target of the spell had to have the proper HD too. Obviously a CL3 Alterself(Ice Mephit) scroll would be infinitely more useful than that CL3 levitate scroll I have in tuff.
hogarth 05-12-07, 10:36 PM	@Vath: Just in case you missed it Can I buy a CL3 Alterself scroll & use it to change into a mephit? My guy only has 2 HD. I thought the target of the spell had to have the proper HD too. Polymorph has that clause, but Alter Self (and Metamorphosis) doesn't.
McJarvis 05-12-07, 10:39 PM	Polymorph has that clause, but Alter Self (and Metamorphosis) doesn't. Ah, yes, metamorph. Is it strange that I felt dirty on the inside when I decided to reopen the shape-changing section of my life & briefly considered creating an assume supernatural character? :-) Thanks. I guess I'll be getting more wins at ECL3 than I thought. Beating a flying arrow-shooting mephit with a super high AC and deflect arrows is _not_ a good day at that level, I don't care who you are.
NiQil 05-12-07, 10:44 PM	You should get a light warhorse. :::biiiiiig wink::: Nope....animal companion will serve as a pack horse, and that is as close as I am willing to get. And you will now be shot. In the face. With a hammer. :pbbbtt:
McJarvis 05-12-07, 10:45 PM	Nope....animal companion will serve as a pack horse, and that is as close as I am willing to get. And you will now be shot. In the face. With a hammer. :pbbbtt: I think you forgot expendables too.
Zevox 05-12-07, 10:48 PM	@Vath: Just in case you missed it Can I buy a CL3 Alterself scroll & use it to change into a mephit? My guy only has 2 HD. I thought the target of the spell had to have the proper HD too. Obviously a CL3 Alterself(Ice Mephit) scroll would be infinitely more useful than that CL3 levitate scroll I have in tuff. You are correct - no shape-shifting without correct HD. If that were allowed, Asran would be buying his cohort CL 9 Polymorph scrolls so they could turn into Erinyes :plotting: . Edit: Oh, Alter Self doesn't have that rule? *checks* Yep, its just HD = CL. Huh. Oh well. (and if you think about it: being a specialist wizard in CoCo is really just gaining a scroll of every spell level that you can cast every 3FC. Gives you more GP[scrolls], less options. I'd rather have more options, less GP.) Yet somehow, specialist wizards around here routinely fill out their expendable cap even with 1-2 prohibited schools. Plus the extra memorized spells also gives you more spell levels usable per fight, which is very nice, and specializing gives you access to the Tattoo Focus feat and the Red Wizard PrC. Personally, I think specializing is the better choice here, though it is sometimes hard to pick what schools to prohibit. Necromancy has the fewest must-have spells, so its often a no-brainer, but a second is tougher, and if you want Necromancy its even tougher. Abjuration has the best defensive spells and Dispel Magic, Evocation has the best offensive spells, Enchantment has the best save-or-dies, Illusion has such useful staples as Invisibility and Mirror Image, Transmutation has shape-shifting and such staples as Expeditious Retreat and Disintegrate, Conjuration has summoning spells and staple spells like Black Tentacles and Mage Armor, and Divination isn't an option by the rules. I can see why you might not want to specialize given all that, but I do think its worth it in the end. Zevox
McJarvis 05-12-07, 10:51 PM	You are correct - no shape-shifting without correct HD. If that were allowed, Asran would be buying his cohort CL 9 Polymorph scrolls so they could turn into Erinyes :plotting: . Now I'm confused. Hogarth was right about the Alterself spell not mentioning HD. Which is it? edit-> N/m :)
Vathelokai 05-12-07, 10:56 PM	I thought you couldn't turn into 3HD critters until you had 3HD? Thanks for the input on the sleep spell: It really isn't a save or die build, but I thought the option would be nice. I'll think on the magic weapon thing. edit-> Does alterself change the size of your weapon, or do I need to be packing a small-sized bow eventually? Hogarth is correct; HD dosn't count unless your going for polymorph. Forgot that myself. However, if you want lower HD forms... 1 HD = vargouille, lantern archon, formian worker 2 HD = azer, dretch demon, lemure devil, Azers have +6 nat ac and still can cast spells. lantern archons suck. formian workers have speed of 40 and good nat armor. dretch demon has the most offensive (claw/claw/bite) vargouilles can fly but have no hands to cast or use items with. As for equipment resizing; the rules don't say. Usually that means you cannot (except for some magic items, that change size to fit the owner). I remember a couple characters having different sized bows for this purpose though. Perhaps take it to the courtroom. NOTE: edited this post numerous times.
McJarvis 05-12-07, 10:57 PM	Yet somehow, specialist wizards around here routinely fill out their expendable cap even with 1-2 prohibited schools. Plus the extra memorized spells also gives you more spell levels usable per fight, which is very nice, and specializing gives you access to the Tattoo Focus feat and the Red Wizard PrC. Having the expendable cap at all is kind of like saying "Here, you have to have this many expendables." I don't know the last time I had a character that didn't max out the expendable cap. Ultimately you hit the nail on the head for me: I wanted good defense(abjuration), save-or-dies(enchantment) and the more powerful necro effects(RoE, Enervation). Divination was out, evocation is out(MM wands), Conjuration is out(mage armor//other good utility spells), transmutation is definately out, which leaves illusion. That means either divinist or domain wizard. Neither gives me terribly useful bonus spells(at least, not enough to warrant losing invisibility and mirror image), so I decided to do away with it altogether.
McJarvis 05-12-07, 11:03 PM	However, if you want lower HD forms... Thanks for the help, but I still have the CharOp boards linked with Alterself forms, and it's very clearly referenced with book sources(easy to look for MM tags). I have my own funky ideas for how to best tactically use forms, and a big part of my strategy will be surprise. (Notice that I have access to almost all forms once I get polymorph[high knowledge checks] & I'll be memorizing polymorph & alter self as almost every spell I can get, so I don't have to specify form) This is largely why I'm taking a gish approach: Haste+archery+surprise form== fun for me :D edit-> I also forgot how easy tieflings are to play. Even with +1 LA, you get a ~3 spell levels right off the bat[darkness+ 1/2 energy resistance] & it's a pretty easy one to develop a strategy with. [[High AC+deflect arrows+60ft perfect fly+20% concealment=even nastier defense]]
Vathelokai 05-12-07, 11:10 PM	Thanks for the help, but I still have the CharOp boards linked with Alterself forms, and it's very clearly referenced with book sources(easy to look for MM tags). I have my own funky ideas for how to best tactically use forms, and a big part of my strategy will be surprise. (Notice that I have access to almost all forms once I get polymorph[high knowledge checks] & I'll be memorizing polymorph & alter self as almost every spell I can get, so I don't have to specify form) This is largely why I'm taking a gish approach: Haste+archery+surprise form== fun for me :D Yeah, I know how much fun that is. edit-> I also forgot how easy tieflings are to play. Even with +1 LA, you get a ~3 spell levels right off the bat[darkness+ 1/2 energy resistance] & it's a pretty easy one to develop a strategy with. [[High AC+deflect arrows+60ft perfect fly+20% concealment=even nastier defense]] Don't forget that you loose all that fun tiefling stuff temporarily while you shapeshift (you don't get the energy resistance of the new form).
Zevox 05-12-07, 11:27 PM	Having the expendable cap at all is kind of like saying "Here, you have to have this many expendables." I don't know the last time I had a character that didn't max out the expendable cap. Check out most of mine, then. Though I usually fill it out at level 3-4, past that it depends on the character. I don't think I'll ever have a character max out the cap past level 10 - 5k gp of expendables seems a little crazy to me. My undefeated character, Ceilia, has a little over half her cap barely over a third of it, actually. Looks like I never updated it when she went from ECL 7 to 8. My Warmind, Arden, is a few hundred under his cap at the highest (at level 6), and I try to minimize how much I use with him. My Psion, Istima, has about half his cap. None of my level 10s max their cap, not even Asran, who buys expendables for himself and his wizard cohort. My only character who routinely maxes out his cap is Mithos, who is a Paladin of Tyrrany/Sorcerer at level 5. Zevox
McJarvis 05-12-07, 11:30 PM	Don't forget that you loose all that fun tiefling stuff temporarily while you shapeshift (you don't get the energy resistance of the new form). That's one of the reasons abjuration was off-limits for prohibited schools in the end.
Salrantol 05-13-07, 02:25 AM	Can the "Use Blackmarket Connection" use of Gather Information be used to upgrade items free of credits? (i.e. turning a Headband of Intellect +2 into a Headband of Intellect +3 (on the off chance you are the god of gather information))?
Zevox 05-13-07, 02:30 AM	Can the "Use Blackmarket Connection" use of Gather Information be used to upgrade items free of credits? (i.e. turning a Headband of Intellect +2 into a Headband of Intellect +3 (on the off chance you are the god of gather information))? As far as I know, sure. The skill does technically say "buy" an item, but I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed to upgrade one you have. As you say though, good luck getting enough gather information to pay for that. Zevox
Salrantol 05-13-07, 03:13 AM	As you say though, good luck getting enough gather information to pay for that. That was actually an innocuous example to hide my truly sinister motives behind the question. On an unrelated note...;) ...Esme Baraksdottir is up for critique & review.
UserNamer 05-13-07, 09:00 AM	Hey, could someone help me with this: Is it possible to ride a normal dog if you train it for combat riding? I know it's small, but a tiny creature could be carried. If it is possible, what do I need beside the combat riding package?
Sjiggie 05-13-07, 09:55 AM	A tiny creature can ride a normal dog into combat and when you teach him the combat riding package you only need a saddle for it and whatever equipment you want to give it.
Yitzi 05-13-07, 12:04 PM	Question: can the arcane archer's imbue arrow ability be used with a spell from a scroll?
templer10 05-13-07, 12:23 PM	question - the feat- split psionic ray - can both rays be used on the same target or do they have to be aimed at 2 diffrent targets?
Vathelokai 05-13-07, 12:23 PM	ATTENTION As a public service, I present the current list of PCs in the prison. If you fix your violaiton, please send a PM to the person who put you in the prison. It is their responsibility to notify Prisonlords by marking the post "Fixed". If you have retired the character and will never fix them, then send a PM to both Pitlords and Prisonlords notifying them that the character is no longer active. Kazero Zenigame (Aura_Blade) Violation Shadovar (Deathspell_Omega) Violation Kole Ignatius (One_Marine) Violation Koric (TaggIIV) Violation (4) & Violation (4) Ahab with a Piggyback (UserNamer) Violation (4) & Violation (4) Zero (UserNamer) Violation Dunerunner (Yitzi) Violation Tralamin Loyalar (Sjiggie) Violation Psychosis (Tellish_of_Ket) Violation (4) Valanthe Valassar (Sjiggie) Violation Charles Ponzi (UserNamer) Violation (4) Nyphanalith (TaggIIV) Violation (4) Note that all parties have been PMed. This is a one time only thing. Lets try to have a week with no prisoners, eh?
templer10 05-13-07, 12:40 PM	another question - how does a wilder's wild surge ability works with the increase in PPS that most psionic feats cause? can you use the wild surge to "pay" for the psionic feats?
hogarth 05-13-07, 12:46 PM	another question - how does a wilder's wild surge ability works with the increase in PPS that most psionic feats cause? can you use the wild surge to "pay" for the psionic feats? In my opinion: no, you can only pay for normal augmentation with a wild surge. I think Zevox would be sympathetic to your interpretation, though; he wanted to do the same thing.
Zevox 05-13-07, 12:51 PM	question - the feat- split psionic ray - can both rays be used on the same target or do they have to be aimed at 2 diffrent targets? Two different targets. Note that the feat specifically says the rays must be aimed at any two targets in range. If you want to fire two rays at the same target, you need the Twin Power feat. another question - how does a wilder's wild surge ability works with the increase in PPS that most psionic feats cause? can you use the wild surge to "pay" for the psionic feats? The ruling I received when I asked the same question was "no, because Wild Surge says it augments the power". Zevox
Yitzi 05-13-07, 01:01 PM	Question: can the arcane archer's imbue arrow ability be used with a spell from a scroll? bump
Zevox 05-13-07, 01:05 PM	Question: can the arcane archer's imbue arrow ability be used with a spell from a scroll? *frowns* My first inclination is to say "no", but the ability doesn't really give any indication, does it? There does seem to be the implication that the archer is casting the spell himself, but nothing concrete. I suppose if you had a spell with no somatic components (so you could hold the scroll and the bow at the same time and cast/drop the scroll/fire), you could argue it could be done. Zevox
Zevox 05-13-07, 01:07 PM	What would be the cost, credit cost, and slot of a woundrous item that lets you add your key ability modifier to the DC of spells cast from scrolls? Let me answer this one for you, too: not happening. Theres nothing in the core rules for pricing such an item, and the minimum DC on spells from scrolls is one of their balancing factors, so theres no way such an item would ever be approved. Zevox
templer10 05-13-07, 01:28 PM	The ruling I received when I asked the same question was "no, because Wild Surge says it augments the power". Zevox ok - say a 6th level wilder with energy ray and empower power wants to empower his wild surged energy ray - by the rules the max he can do energy ray and sill empower it is 4d6X1.5 (since empower power adds +2 PPS) and it will cost 6 pps. but if he is also doing wild surge so if iam right it actually does 6d6X1.5 and cost 6 pps.
Zevox 05-13-07, 01:35 PM	ok - say a 6th level wilder with energy ray and empower power wants to empower his wild surged energy ray - by the rules the max he can do energy ray and sill empower it is 4d6X1.5 (since empower power adds +2 PPS) and it will cost 6 pps. but if he is also doing wild surge so if iam right it actually does 6d6X1.5 and cost 6 pps. You could do that, paying the 2 pps for the empower and using the surge as part of the augmenting. You cannot use the surge to pay for the empowering though, which does make a difference in some cases (say a level 4 wilder with empower power wants to empower a second level power - he can't, because he would exceed his ML limit on pp to do so, and wild surge can't be used to pay for the empowering cost). Zevox
Vathelokai 05-13-07, 02:55 PM	I forget: do special material costs (adaman, mithral, etc) multiply in price for barding? Or is it just the base item cost?
NiQil 05-13-07, 03:02 PM	I forget: do special material costs (adaman, mithral, etc) multiply in price for barding? Or is it just the base item cost? I believe we determined that the special item costs multiply as well, as does masterwork cost.
Zevox 05-13-07, 03:03 PM	I forget: do special material costs (adaman, mithral, etc) multiply in price for barding? Or is it just the base item cost? They do, but if the material is automatically masterwork you take the masterwork cost out of thiers before multiplying, then add it back in at the end, because masterwork cost is never multiplied (e.g. a Mithril Shirt Barding would cost 100+(1000-150=850)= 950*2= 1900+150= 2050 gp at medium size). Zevox
Zevox 05-13-07, 03:05 PM	I believe we determined that the special item costs multiply as well, as does masterwork cost. We determined special item costs are multiplied (i.e. composite bows' strength mod cost), but the FAQ is explicit that masterwork costs are never multiplied. Zevox
NiQil 05-13-07, 03:15 PM	We determined special item costs are multiplied (i.e. composite bows' strength mod cost), but the FAQ is explicit that masterwork costs are never multiplied. Zevox Can you point me in the direction of that ruling? I don't recall seeing that in the FAQ. It seems a little 'off' to me to purchase large masterwork chain shirt barding and only pay 150 + (100 x 4), rather than pay 250 x 4. But I'll gladly make the change if I can back it up. Edit: Nevermind...found it. On page 217 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide, it states that “the cost of the masterwork quality and any magical enhancement remains the same” regardless of a creature’s unusual size or shape. Adamantine and mithral both state that items made from such material are masterwork quality and the masterwork cost is part of the material cost listed. How much would a set of mithral chainmail barding for my warhorse cost? A strict reading of the rules indicates that in such a case the masterwork cost for armor should be subtracted from the special material price before applying the multiplier for any unusual size or shape of the intended wearer. For example, according to the Armor for Unusual Creatures chart on page 123 of the Player’s Handbook, a set of chainmail barding for a warhorse (a Large nonhumanoid creature) would normally cost 600 gp (four times the normal cost of 150 gp). A set of mithral chainmail barding would cost 16,000 gp: 600 gp for the chainmail barding plus 15,400 gp (the cost of mithral medium armor [4,000 gp], minus the masterwork cost for armor [150 gp], times 4).
TelinArtho 05-13-07, 03:18 PM	I can confirm it as well - but don't have the FAQ on me at the moment. It is in the equipment section of the FAQ.
Zevox 05-13-07, 03:19 PM	Page 39 of the FAQ has it. On page 217 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide, it states that “the cost of the masterwork quality and any magical enhancement remains the same” regardless of a creature’s unusual size or shape. Adamantine and mithral both state that items made from such material are masterwork quality and the masterwork cost is part of the material cost listed. How much would a set of mithral chainmail barding for my warhorse cost? A strict reading of the rules indicates that in such a case the masterwork cost for armor should be subtracted from the special material price before applying the multiplier for any unusual size or shape of the intended wearer. For example, according to the Armor for Unusual Creatures chart on page 123 of the Player’s Handbook, a set of chainmail barding for a warhorse (a Large nonhumanoid creature) would normally cost 600 gp (four times the normal cost of 150 gp). A set of mithral chainmail barding would cost 16,000 gp: 600 gp for the chainmail barding plus 15,400 gp (the cost of mithral medium armor [4,000 gp], minus the masterwork cost for armor [150 gp], times 4). Zevox
Yitzi 05-13-07, 05:21 PM	Question: Why is the enemy pick for Treetall's mission not agains the rule that says no auto-wins? I see no way those snakes can harm a flying enemy.
Erithmu 05-13-07, 05:31 PM	Question: Why is the enemy pick for Treetall's mission not agains the rule that says no auto-wins? I see no way those snakes can harm a flying enemy. Because the ceiling has 20 ft limit, and they have 15 ft reach w/ 15ft size
templer10 05-13-07, 05:38 PM	if you managed to pin someone - do you need to spend an action every round to continue pinning or is the check every round to continue pinning is done "for free" sort to speak?
hogarth 05-13-07, 05:47 PM	if you managed to pin someone - do you need to spend an action every round to continue pinning or is the check every round to continue pinning is done "for free" sort to speak? You have to do a new pin (with a new check) every round.
Yitzi 05-13-07, 05:59 PM	You need a check, of course, the question is whether you can, the turn after pinning the enemy, both make a check to keep him pinned and also try to damage him. And if not, then does that mean that the options you have when pinning an opponent only apply to monks and those with 6 or higher BAB?
NiQil 05-13-07, 06:10 PM	You need a check, of course, the question is whether you can, the turn after pinning the enemy, both make a check to keep him pinned and also try to damage him. And if not, then does that mean that the options you have when pinning an opponent only apply to monks and those with 6 or higher BAB? Yes, that is exactly what it means...pinning is only useful if you have more than one attack per round to be able to pin and perform another action in the same round, or an ally of some kind who can perform another action after you have pinned the opponent.
templer10 05-13-07, 06:36 PM	i need something confired/refuted- when a monk uses flurry of blows to do grapple chesk he takes the -2 he normally gets to attacks on the grapple attempts?
NiQil 05-13-07, 06:38 PM	i need something confired/refuted- when a monk uses flurry of blows to do grapple chesk he takes the -2 he normally gets to attacks on the grapple attempts? No...grapple checks are not attacks, so no penalty.
Yitzi 05-13-07, 06:55 PM	Yes, that is exactly what it means...pinning is only useful if you have more than one attack per round to be able to pin and perform another action in the same round, or an ally of some kind who can perform another action after you have pinned the opponent. Or if you want to prevent the enemy from attacking you while his buffs run out.
templer10 05-13-07, 07:50 PM	i was wondering - do the more exspensive mounts you can just buy "of the rack" like giant eagle, hipogryph - come with any training? if not how do you train them?
Erithmu 05-13-07, 07:55 PM	Ok .. this will probably get ugly but here goes. And sooner rather than later on this response would be useful as this has direct implications on the IMT fight. - Person casts Magic Jar moving into recepitacle. - Opponent (through whatever means is able to hit lifeless body with direct damage spell. Questions: 1) Is the person in the magic jar allowed a reflex saving throw? 2) Is all the equipment on the person in the magic jar considered 'unattended' and thus subject to the damage that the blast would cause? (read as: all equipment goes bye bye: scrolls, items, wands, clothing, etc etc) 3) Am I missing something here?
Rauul 05-13-07, 08:32 PM	Questions: 1) Is the person in the magic jar allowed a reflex saving throw? 2) Is all the equipment on the person in the magic jar considered 'unattended' and thus subject to the damage that the blast would cause? (read as: all equipment goes bye bye: scrolls, items, wands, clothing, etc etc) 3) Am I missing something here? Answer 1 No.. they are by the spell "leaving your body lifeless" no dex no reflex save.. IMHO Answer 2 only the soul goes into the magic jar not the equipment 3) Magic Jar is a very deadly spell to use... Most wizards use it as a Last ditch spell to try to take over a body and use things to preserve their body that was on the verge of being destroyed.. or to enter a warded area that the victim can get in and out of.. is a spying and last ditch spell for some...
Sjiggie 05-14-07, 08:07 AM	I'm searching for a questlord for Valanthe (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12072066#post12072066). He is going on a full quest to search for the Talariic Texts to enter the Warmind Prc. Someone willing to take it? Thanks Sjiggie
TelinArtho 05-14-07, 09:48 AM	Does the PMG attack on the CEF result in an attitude adjustment that I need to mark down in the CEF battles post? If so - what is the "starting value" of the attitude. The adjustment - I believe is 6*6*10 = 360 right?
TelinArtho 05-14-07, 10:00 AM	That was actually an innocuous example to hide my truly sinister motives behind the question. On an unrelated note...;) ...Esme Baraksdottir is up for critique & review. Given the character's rather unique situation, I would certainly mark scrolls as either Divine or Arcane and also what, if any, CL check is needed. As marked, you might be all right as is - but since you don't have your ASF chance listed anywhere - that should at least be on there (and if it is listed and I missed it - nevermind then).
McJarvis 05-14-07, 11:50 AM	I just finished up the Persius battle on God of War 2(PS2) and oh my, I felt like a CoCo gladiator.
templer10 05-14-07, 12:06 PM	iam wondering - the power- control object - can it animate say a querterstaff? and if so does it's enchntment bonus apply to the attack roll/damage?
Yitzi 05-14-07, 12:24 PM	I would say yes, no, and no. The enhancement bonus is meant to enhance attacks made with it as a weapon, and you are not using it as a weapon. They don't add to its damage as a falling object if you drop it on someone, same should go if you control it psionically.
MindWandererB 05-14-07, 12:37 PM	Ok .. this will probably get ugly but here goes. And sooner rather than later on this response would be useful as this has direct implications on the IMT fight. - Person casts Magic Jar moving into recepitacle. - Opponent (through whatever means is able to hit lifeless body with direct damage spell. Questions: 1) Is the person in the magic jar allowed a reflex saving throw? 2) Is all the equipment on the person in the magic jar considered 'unattended' and thus subject to the damage that the blast would cause? (read as: all equipment goes bye bye: scrolls, items, wands, clothing, etc etc) 3) Am I missing something here?As is obvious from my tactics, I disagree with Rauul. If the character is "dead" for all intents and purposes, then their gear is unattended.Does the PMG attack on the CEF result in an attitude adjustment that I need to mark down in the CEF battles post? If so - what is the "starting value" of the attitude. The adjustment - I believe is 6*6*10 = 360 right?No, it's irrelevant. If we tracked CEF's attitude toward the PMG, this would be necessary, but we only track the PMG's attitudes toward the guilds.
Rauul 05-14-07, 01:10 PM	As is obvious from my tactics, I disagree with Rauul. If the character is "dead" for all intents and purposes, then their gear is unattended. isn't that what i said... only thier soul enters the gem.. leaving their body lifeless? edit=> Yes thats what i said... Answer 2 only the soul goes into the magic jar not the equipment thought so
Rauul 05-14-07, 01:27 PM	one of my fav tactics as a Dm used to be to magic jar a Antagonistic NPC boss and have him possess the Familiar who carried the wands and scrolls for the Mage.. So the mage could possess the party tank (strong and dumb) and lead them into trouble... then the invisible familiar would have the spirit of the dumb tank.. lead the party to it's death (so he could recover the artifact or relic they had) or just Attack the party on his watch either way the surprise was his and when the body was destroyed... just pop back to the gem then his body... the dumb tank would then die.. battle over.. this tactic worked for several "Unkillable" parties or so they claimed to be... Acually First time i used it was In the Throne of Bloodstone.. wanna see a party scared... have a Great Wyrm White dragon attack while possessed by a level 38 lich (with full spells)..
MindWandererB 05-14-07, 01:57 PM	isn't that what i said... only thier soul enters the gem.. leaving their body lifeless? edit=> Yes thats what i said... thought so Sorry, I didn't really understand what you meant there. In any event, another Elder opinion would be great, since I'm kind of biased on this one....
McJarvis 05-14-07, 02:09 PM	another Elder opinion would be great I agree with you and Raul. ;)
Zevox 05-14-07, 02:34 PM	From the looks of things, I have to agree with the lot of you. The spell leaves your body lifeless, so it can't do anything - make saves, attend objects, the works. And in more interesting news, we have another writing contest! Hurrah! Time to get to work on part 2 of Eraca's story :) . Zevox
templer10 05-14-07, 03:04 PM	my latest creation - Longshot - is here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12394278&postcount=1126) - critiques, suggestions, comments are welcom.
TelinArtho 05-14-07, 03:05 PM	You have Escape Artist listed as an enhancement bonus to grapple when escaping a grapple. However - it is not a bonus and rather is a check you make instead of a grapple check.
templer10 05-14-07, 03:08 PM	You have Escape Artist listed as an enhancement bonus to grapple when escaping a grapple. However - it is not a bonus and rather is a check you make instead of a grapple check. i know- it was a mistype.
Zevox 05-14-07, 03:19 PM	my latest creation - Longshot - is here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12394278&postcount=1126) - critiques, suggestions, comments are welcom. You know, you could get rid of all those extra font tags... Your dorje of energy missile is only DC 16 if its used for electricity. If its anything else, its DC 14, so you probably shouldn't notate it as though its always DC 16. Zevox
templer10 05-14-07, 03:31 PM	You know, you could get rid of all those extra font tags... Your dorje of energy missile is only DC 16 if its used for electricity. If its anything else, its DC 14, so you probably shouldn't notate it as though its always DC 16. Zevox actually it is DC 16 - since it's ML 6 - 10+2(pl)+1(minimum int needed)+3(augmantation).
Yitzi 05-14-07, 04:05 PM	But what if you choose to use less than max augmentation?
MindWandererB 05-14-07, 04:08 PM	But what if you choose to use less than max augmentation? On a dorje? He doesn't have that option.
Yitzi 05-14-07, 04:20 PM	sorry, didn't see we were talking about a dorje.
templer10 05-14-07, 05:08 PM	can you do snipe with wand of magic missile? in my opinion it strech what "attack" is a bit much. on another note- it's really annoying having to run a fight where BOTH fighter's tactics more or less break down.
Yitzi 05-14-07, 05:35 PM	can you do snipe with wand of magic missile? in my opinion it strech what "attack" is a bit much. The way I see it, either it's an attack so you can snipe, or it's not an attack so you don't need another Hide check.
templer10 05-14-07, 05:47 PM	The way I see it, either it's an attack so you can snipe, or it's not an attack so you don't need another Hide check. not really- either it's an attack so you can snipe or it's not an attack so you are autospotted after shooting the wand- but i did for the fight as if it's an attack - since it doesnt really make a diffrence. (much)
Zevox 05-14-07, 06:23 PM	actually it is DC 16 - since it's ML 6 - 10+2(pl)+1(minimum int needed)+3(augmantation). Oh right, I forgot for a moment there about that power's crazy +1 DC/pp rule... I so wish we could implement the complete psionic errata reducing that to +1 DC/2 pp... Zevox
Salrantol 05-14-07, 06:37 PM	you don't have your ASF chance listed anywhere - that should at least be on there (and if it is listed and I missed it - nevermind then). Yeah, the ASF is in exactly the spot the standard character sheet says it should be--in the spells section. That's why I picked bard over rogue for UMD--actual spells, too!
Malither76 05-14-07, 07:23 PM	I would allow the snipe, but the opponent would get the spot check vs your hide at -20 and a listen check against DC 0 to pinpoint since you have to speak a command word.
Yitzi 05-14-07, 07:50 PM	and a listen check against DC 0 to pinpoint since you have to speak a command word. Or at least a listen check to determine where the command word is coming from...if you have ventriloquism, that might not be where you are.
Sjiggie 05-14-07, 10:02 PM	can you do snipe with wand of magic missile? in my opinion it strech what "attack" is a bit much. on another note- it's really annoying having to run a fight where BOTH fighter's tactics more or less break down. You can't snipe with a magic missile wand since you don't make an attack roll. Attacks are actions that require an attack roll and magic missile does not. You can snipe with scorching ray for example.
Yitzi 05-14-07, 10:54 PM	But for purposes of breaking invisibility, it clearly counts as an attack. For purposes of being unable to hide easily, what would it count as? Nothing, meaning you don't need another hide check? An attack, in which case it should count as an attack for all hide-related purposes, including sniping? Something else--then what? I have trouble seeing why it should be harder to hide after firing off a wand of MM than after firing off a wand of scorching ray-if anything it should be easier because you don't have to aim carefully.
NiQil 05-14-07, 10:56 PM	The definition of an attack as it pertains to invisibility is far greater in it's liberalness than what a normal attack is defined as. So that is hardly the best comparison. Short version of an attack definition: Anything that requires an attack roll.
Yitzi 05-14-07, 11:04 PM	The definition of an attack as it pertains to invisibility is far greater in it's liberalness than what a normal attack is defined as. So that is hardly the best comparison. So use the definition of an attack as it pertains to hiding. The only possible category of "things that break hiding" that MM might fall under is attacks-and if MM is an attack for hide purposes, then it's an attack for all hide purposes.
Sjiggie 05-14-07, 11:06 PM	From the D&D Glossary: Any of numerous actions intended to harm, disable, or neutralize an opponent. The outcome of an attack is determined by an attack roll. You need an attack roll for an attack magic missile doesn're require an attack roll so it isn't an attack. Invisibilty has it own defenition of what breaks the spell so that doesn't make magic missile an attack it is still a spell being cast so not an attack.
Yitzi 05-15-07, 10:56 AM	First of all, that first setence looks more like a definition than the second does. And MM certainly is an action "intended to harm, disable, or neutralize an opponent". Secondly, if it's not an attack, then what is the source that MM even breaks hiding in the first place? You can't have it both ways.
McJarvis 05-15-07, 11:24 AM	First of all, that first setence looks more like a definition than the second does. And MM certainly is an action "intended to harm, disable, or neutralize an opponent". Secondly, if it's not an attack, then what is the source that MM even breaks hiding in the first place? You can't have it both ways. As is common in the way I handle things, return question: Can you snipe with a sleep spell? Can you snipe with a Magic Jar pocession-attempt?
templer10 05-15-07, 11:37 AM	iam pretty sure the ansewr is no but just to make sure - the feats - enlarge power and craft dorja doesnt count as psionic feats for purpose of the psionic body feat right?
McJarvis 05-15-07, 11:41 AM	iam pretty sure the ansewr is no but just to make sure - the feats - enlarge power and craft dorja doesnt count as psionic feats for purpose of the psionic body feat right? nope
Usurpator 05-15-07, 12:29 PM	First of all, that first setence looks more like a definition than the second does. And MM certainly is an action "intended to harm, disable, or neutralize an opponent". Secondly, if it's not an attack, then what is the source that MM even breaks hiding in the first place? You can't have it both ways. Common sense applies in all cases. Command words for wands need to be spoken clearly afaik. Sniping and clear speaking do not go together. Same goes for sniping while casting a spell, even if said spell requires an attack roll. If said spell was metamagically Silent, you have a nice argument. I would not allow a character to Snipe with a Trebuchet, or hand-tossed screaming goblins even if the rules legally allowed it. Usurpator's two often forgotten rules to counter weird cases of rules-lawyering. 1. Just because the rules don't mention anywhere you *cannot* do a thing, does not automatically mean you can do it. 2. Just because the rules don't mention you *can* do a thing, does not automatically mean you cannot do it. Please apply a generous amount of common sense in both cases.
McJarvis 05-15-07, 12:39 PM	Sniping and clear speaking do not go together. Yet by our rules they are the same volume, regardless of the speaker or weapon being used to snipe with. Sigh....
Usurpator 05-15-07, 12:57 PM	Yet by our rules they are the same volume, regardless of the speaker or weapon being used to snipe with. Sigh.... Yeah, but the rule that sniping (with any weapon) makes as much sound as speaking out loud is a completely made-up CoCo rule right? It has no basis at all in the D&D rules, right? Where was it mentioned again as a house rule? EDIT: I'm not seeing it in House Rules (where it should be), any of the Rules posts or Court Decisions. So as far as I'm concerned (since I don't agree with it), it is not a CoCo rule. Is it perhaps mentioned somewhere in a vague Rules of the Game article?
McJarvis 05-15-07, 01:12 PM	Yeah, but the rule that sniping (with any weapon) makes as much sound as speaking out loud is a completely made-up CoCo rule right? It has no basis at all in the D&D rules, right? Where was it mentioned again as a house rule? EDIT: I'm not seeing it in House Rules (where it should be), any of the Rules posts or Court Decisions. So as far as I'm concerned (since I don't agree with it), it is not a CoCo rule. Is it perhaps mentioned somewhere in a vague Rules of the Game article? It might just be a lengthy Elder debate that never got recorded. Enough people still remember the debate that the DC0 listen check for attacks is a "rule", though I suppose you could easily dispute it if it's not listed anywhere. In answer to your question: We got it from the rules on invisible creatures "attacking" generating a DC 0 listen check, DC 20 to pinpoint.
MindWandererB 05-15-07, 01:27 PM	I should probably put that as a Council topic, since the DC 0 Listen check was hotly debated the last two or three times it came up.
Usurpator 05-15-07, 01:28 PM	It might just be a lengthy Elder debate that never got recorded. Lengthy Elder debates that are never recorded don't exist as far as I'm concerned. Have been blindsided by a 'yeah, but there was an Elder debate about it X months back' too often. I don't mind if such involve rule clarification, but if it concerns instituting house rules (like this one) it needs to be recorded. It would be unfair to anyone unaware of such rules. I don't think members are required to read up on Elder debates. In answer to your question: We got it from the rules on invisible creatures "attacking" generating a DC 0 listen check, DC 20 to pinpoint. Well, it is a made up rule then. Fairly reasonable too. Still think that sniping with a bow should not make as much sound as talking out loud, or swinging a sword at someone while wearing your plate mail. Or at least have it modified by MS skill.
McJarvis 05-15-07, 01:31 PM	Or at least have it modified by MS skill. This was our initial thought, but Sauro complained rather loudly that "move silently" is not the "attack silently" skill.
SoulLord 05-15-07, 01:42 PM	I am looking for a questlord for Vandelar so he can go hunt a dragon to use his animate dead spell upon. any takers?
Quoriil 05-15-07, 03:43 PM	Quick question, do I need to repost a "ready" message between fights in the current cycle? ...and, to feed my contrary nature; what would the difference between a silent spell scorching ray and a flaming arrow from a short-bow be? If I can snipe with the bow, why not the ray? If a flaming, smoking arrow can be used for sniping, why not a magic missile or a fire-ball spell? Ultimately, if the flashy arrow can be sniped with, how about a quickened spell?
McJarvis 05-15-07, 03:47 PM	Quick question, do I need to repost a "ready" message between fights in the current cycle? ...and, to feed my contrary nature; what would the difference between a silent spell scorching ray and a flaming arrow from a short-bow be? If I can snipe with the bow, why not the ray? If a flaming, smoking arrow can be used for sniping, why not a magic missile or a fire-ball spell? Ultimately, if the flashy arrow can be sniped with, how about a quickened spell? I'm not aware that anyone has said one way or the other officially. As I said-> the real hard questions are those of the "Can I snipe hold person?" and "Can I snipe Sleep?". Once these are answered, Magic Missile is answered for sure.
MindWandererB 05-15-07, 03:52 PM	Quick question, do I need to repost a "ready" message between fights in the current cycle?All you need to do is change your title line to reflect the correct date (May 16). Edit: I just checked your sheet--make sure you change the title line, not just the first line of your sheet. I won't see the latter when I use the crawler.
Quoriil 05-15-07, 04:46 PM	All you need to do is change your title line to reflect the correct date (May 16). Edit: I just checked your sheet--make sure you change the title line, not just the first line of your sheet. I won't see the latter when I use the crawler. This is a stupid question... how do I change the title line? When I hit "Edit" it doesn't allow me to change the title just the body and my reasons for editing. Oh, "go advanced" ftw. Nev'rmind then :embarrass .
McJarvis 05-15-07, 04:49 PM	This is a stupid question... how do I change the title line? When I hit "Edit" it doesn't allow me to change the title just the body and my reasons for editing. Hit... Oh, "go advanced" ftw. Nev'rmind then :embarrass . Right -_- McJarvis breaks Rule 1 of CoCo: Do try to read all of what people say before posting.
McJarvis 05-15-07, 04:52 PM	@Templer: I'm kinda dissapointed that "Longshot" isn't a build revolving around divination. (Or at least: built around looking a few seconds into the future ;) ) If you're unfamiliar with the Comicbook hero, disregard this.
templer10 05-15-07, 05:30 PM	@Templer: I'm kinda dissapointed that "Longshot" isn't a build revolving around divination. (Or at least: built around looking a few seconds into the future ;) ) If you're unfamiliar with the Comicbook hero, disregard this. i am familiar- i just liked the name- and it does sort of feets- with that guys range - in theory he can stand in the middle of the plains or levitate to roof of the arena and blast whoever to death. also- did you ever bother to read the power control Air? it's freaking awsome against medium-huge creatures- when i can get the wind to 51 MPH (level 7) and the right positioning - you simply cant come close to the guy and i dont care about the concetration since i can hand it over to the psi crystal - it's an expensive strategy to use but on small maps - cavern, sewers which would normally be this build weak points it can force almost everyone to a ranged battle.
Yitzi 05-15-07, 06:59 PM	As is common in the way I handle things, return question: Can you snipe with a sleep spell? Can you snipe with a Magic Jar pocession-attempt? If asked to rule, I would say that you don't need to snipe, and if you were hidden you stay hidden (although the sleep spell may very well reveal your location through sound if proper measures are not taken). After all, just because someone cast sleep at you doesn't mean you know where it came from. Scorching ray would of course need a second hide check at -20. MM comes from the caster's direction, but can go around corners, so I could see either way-stay hidden, or snipe. But I can't see it being harder to conceal than an attack with a weapon (if sound is dealt with) Common sense applies in all cases. Command words for wands need to be spoken clearly afaik. Sniping and clear speaking do not go together. Same goes for sniping while casting a spell, even if said spell requires an attack roll. If said spell was metamagically Silent, you have a nice argument. Or if you're using ventriloquism, or if the other person failed his listen check (at a decent range, with some luck, it could happen), or if the other person wants to know more than his listen check tells him. I would not allow a character to Snipe with a Trebuchet, or hand-tossed screaming goblins even if the rules legally allowed it. I would, but he'd likely make the listen check by enough to pinpoint. Usurpator's two often forgotten rules to counter weird cases of rules-lawyering. 1. Just because the rules don't mention anywhere you *cannot* do a thing, does not automatically mean you can do it. 2. Just because the rules don't mention you *can* do a thing, does not automatically mean you cannot do it. Please apply a generous amount of common sense in both cases. And my common sense tells me a magic missile is no easier to determine the source of than an arrow is.
SauroGrenom 05-15-07, 07:00 PM	also- did you ever bother to read the power control Air? it's freaking awsome against medium-huge creatures- when i can get the wind to 51 MPH (level 7) and the right positioning - you simply cant come close to the guy and i dont care about the concetration since i can hand it over to the psi crystal - it's an expensive strategy to use but on small maps - cavern, sewers which would normally be this build weak points it can force almost everyone to a ranged battle.That power is most effective against creatures of a smaller size classification. Huge creatures are most likely not going to have any problem with the wind. Also it effects the caster the same as everyone else, assuming you are in the area of effect.
templer10 05-15-07, 07:08 PM	That power is most effective against creatures of a smaller size classification. Huge creatures are most likely not going to have any problem with the wind. Also it effects the caster the same as everyone else, assuming you are in the area of effect. when augmented to tha max (7 pps) huge creaters are "checked" by the wind - I.E. - cant move forwards which is what you really want anyway against those kinds of things. The power is by no means a win all- it's situtational and is mostly against large or smaller craetures in smaller maps - but can do some very nice things when used properly - note that when max augmented against the standart gladiator (medium creature) - it knows them prone with NO save and NO pr - so assuming you locate it correctly - getting out of the Aoe of the power can be very slow (barring D.door and other exotics).
hogarth 05-15-07, 07:13 PM	The power is by no means a win all- it's situtational and is mostly against large or smaller craetures in smaller maps - but can do some very nice things when used properly - note that when max augmented against the standart gladiator (medium creature) - it knows them prone with NO save and NO pr - so assuming you locate it correctly - getting out of the Aoe of the power can be very slow (barring D.door and other exotics). I think you're misreading the table -- all of the effects have a Fort save, not just the effects on Large and smaller creatures.
SauroGrenom 05-15-07, 07:28 PM	I think you're misreading the table -- all of the effects have a Fort save, not just the effects on Large and smaller creatures. I think he's right in that there's no save, but if he looks at the power and compares it to the maps he'll find that it has very limited uses. There are few places you can use the power and locate it's center on the map and not get hit yourself. Then there's the fact that any target will easily move out of the area. A huge creature can move out the back or sides. Other creatures are quickly blown out of the area. Then you have to spend a move action to redirect the power. If you are using your psicrystal to concentrate, then you've invested lots of pp into just keeping your foes away for a few rounds. Untill high levels it's just not a very efficient use of pp when you have spent about 12pp on a single power that doesn't cause damage of any kind. My character Raskos has had the power his whole career (well most of it). So far, I've never used it.
templer10 05-15-07, 07:31 PM	I think you're misreading the table -- all of the effects have a Fort save, not just the effects on Large and smaller creatures. why you figure that? it's a fairly standrat table - divided into sections - and only the part about "blown away" list fort save. (and it's the only effect that cause damage). if the fort save would have been for all the effects listed they wouldnt have needed to make the table look that way but in the part about the fort save would have had just 1 box for each wind strength. also - read in the description of the varios types of storms - and they simply state what they do - for instance - windstorm simply say that ranged weapon attacks are impossible - it doesnt list a fort save. also note that unlike a gust of wind spell which DOES have fort save to COMPLETLY negate the spell, control air - doenst have a save.
templer10 05-15-07, 07:34 PM	I think he's right in that there's no save, but if he looks at the power and compares it to the maps he'll find that it has very limited uses. There are few places you can use the power and locate it's center on the map and not get hit yourself. Then there's the fact that any target will easily move out of the area. A huge creature can move out the back or sides. Other creatures are quickly blown out of the area. Then you have to spend a move action to redirect the power. If you are using your psicrystal to concentrate, then you've invested lots of pp into just keeping your foes away for a few rounds. Untill high levels it's just not a very efficient use of pp when you have spent about 12pp on a single power that doesn't cause damage of any kind. My character Raskos has had the power his whole career (well most of it). So far, I've never used it. ah- but the whole point of the power is for small maps where you can make enemies come to you from 1 or at most 2 places (for a limited time anyway) - ill do the damage with dorja's and other powers. for larger maps- true- it's less usefull - But then - iam not going to use it then.
McJarvis 05-15-07, 07:52 PM	At least the burrow-happy people finally have a reason to use it. ;)
McJarvis 05-15-07, 08:35 PM	Do you have to specify the size of ammunition, or is it one-size fits all?
Sjiggie 05-15-07, 08:46 PM	You have to specify it medium sized arrows can only be fired from a medium bow.
Aura_Blade 05-16-07, 12:02 AM	Hi. I'm new here, and I'm sure everyone's going to know what I'm going to ask. (Especially if you read the fight with my character last week.) Was there a thread anywhere that I missed that offers advice on making characters for this message board? I haven't made many D&D characters, and my first one here hasn't been very successful. (One reason I suppose, with help from the pitlord of my first fight, is that the character has no magic or psionics, and generally had nothing great about him.) Here is my character: Kazero Zenigame (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12318232&postcount=1118) I figure that since it's my first character here, I'm not going to worry if I drop him. I was going to try to have him use the feats from the Combat Expertise tree. Maybe I should go with a simpler character first? I wandered through the posted rules, but haven't been able to find these answers, so I figure it's time to ask a question that's been asked a hundred times before but answered somewhere I just haven't found yet.
NiQil 05-16-07, 12:16 AM	Hi. I'm new here, and I'm sure everyone's going to know what I'm going to ask. (Especially if you read the fight with my character last week.) Was there a thread anywhere that I missed that offers advice on making characters for this message board? I haven't made many D&D characters, and my first one here hasn't been very successful. (One reason I suppose, with help from the pitlord of my first fight, is that the character has no magic or psionics, and generally had nothing great about him.) Here is my character: Kazero Zenigame (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12318232&postcount=1118) I figure that since it's my first character here, I'm not going to worry if I drop him. I was going to try to have him use the feats from the Combat Expertise tree. Maybe I should go with a simpler character first? I wandered through the posted rules, but haven't been able to find these answers, so I figure it's time to ask a question that's been asked a hundred times before but answered somewhere I just haven't found yet. More than anything, experience will be your guide. You've only had a couple of fights...don't let that discourage you with your first character. I would give it until at least midway through ECL 4 before deciding to retire the character, unless you are really not having any fun with it. Most characters that are successful here are really good at one thing. That one thing varies from build to build, but most are. They also try to minimize their weaknesses as much as possible. Generally speaking, monks here look great on paper, but when it's time to toss the dice, they just don't hold up, especially past level 5 or so. There are exceptions, to be sure, but that is the general rule. Melee-wise, most anything they can do, a fighter or barbarian can do better, or skirmish wise, a ranger or rogue can do better. And that doesn't even touch casters. Only you can answer the type of characters you like to play, but I would suggest starting with something you are comfortable playing (perhaps something you have played before), and find something to be good at, and try and focus the build around that. A nice easy example is a fighter trip-artist. It's a tried and true combination that flourishes in this setting, and is very easy to manage. That way you can get a feel for how things operate in this forum without getting too stressed about how well or poorly you may be doing at any given time. Also, don't hesitate to ask for advise. Come Wednesdays, we may all be out for blood, but for the most part we are a fairly tight-knit group. We always try and help each other out so that everyone enjoy's themselves. So ask anything you need to.
SauroGrenom 05-16-07, 12:24 AM	Hi. I'm new here, and I'm sure everyone's going to know what I'm going to ask. (Especially if you read the fight with my character last week.) Was there a thread anywhere that I missed that offers advice on making characters for this message board? I haven't made many D&D characters, and my first one here hasn't been very successful. (One reason I suppose, with help from the pitlord of my first fight, is that the character has no magic or psionics, and generally had nothing great about him.) Here is my character: Kazero Zenigame (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12318232&postcount=1118) I figure that since it's my first character here, I'm not going to worry if I drop him. I was going to try to have him use the feats from the Combat Expertise tree. Maybe I should go with a simpler character first? I wandered through the posted rules, but haven't been able to find these answers, so I figure it's time to ask a question that's been asked a hundred times before but answered somewhere I just haven't found yet. My first character was Rebreg Eenoss. He lost his first 5 battles. After that he went on a winning streak for a while and won the next 5. Exposure to more battles will give you the experience you need. Grappling works well, also mounted combat works well. Look around, and ask around. I'm sure you will find the things you need.
TelinArtho 05-16-07, 12:47 AM	Okay - well you've gotten some general advice above. How about something specific: For trippers and disarmers - you are probably better served by going fighter and picking up a mount. Fighter lets you get a decent number of feats and allows a nice variety of tactics; the mount allows you to overcome the various ways others can have a speed advantage on you. For a relatively successful example - you are welcome to look at my character - Farig (ECL6, Human Fighter). You could always combine a dip into barbarian for increased speed, or into a spellcasting class to increase versatility with a modicum of spells. Since you mentioned expertise - you are already dumping some points into Intelligence anyway - so it has a nice synergy. Specifically for monks - I would suggest doing away with the rather expensive Bracers of Armor and instead go for potions of Mage Armor. First off, for that +1 AC you gain - you can replace it with 20 potions over time - and that would give you a +4 AC over that time. Another common tactic to make monks "more effective" is to pick a race that gives MWP in bows - either an outsider (Tiefling for example) or one of the various elf races. Alternatively, you can dip into a class that synergizes well (2 levels of fighter or ranger for instance). You could even try 2 levels of paladin assuming you have the points in Cha to spare (not likely as a monk - but it could happen) or a level or two in cleric with the war domain. The point of all of this is to gain a decent ranged attack. As a non-spellcaster (or a weak one if you dip into a spellcasting class), you will constantly need to be able to engage on the battlefield of your opponent unless you have a trick to force your battlefield. Most spellcasters can dictate this fairly well though. One way to force your own battlefield is the use of a mount with a decent speed (light warhorse for example). An alternative would be a flying mount if you desire to keep distance at all cost. Druids have an easy entrance to this at level 4 when they can pick up a dire bat companion. Earlier than that - a small druid with access to reduce person can ride an eagle animal companion if he watches his weight well. And as has been said before - don't get discouraged by losses. My first seven fights went 1 and 6 (or something like that...), and I'm barely at a 50% win rate right now...
Vathelokai 05-16-07, 12:51 AM	Hi. I'm new here, and I'm sure everyone's going to know what I'm going to ask. (Especially if you read the fight with my character last week.) Was there a thread anywhere that I missed that offers advice on making characters for this message board? I haven't made many D&D characters, and my first one here hasn't been very successful. (One reason I suppose, with help from the pitlord of my first fight, is that the character has no magic or psionics, and generally had nothing great about him.) Here is my character: Kazero Zenigame (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12318232&postcount=1118) I figure that since it's my first character here, I'm not going to worry if I drop him. I was going to try to have him use the feats from the Combat Expertise tree. Maybe I should go with a simpler character first? I wandered through the posted rules, but haven't been able to find these answers, so I figure it's time to ask a question that's been asked a hundred times before but answered somewhere I just haven't found yet. No real thread just for advice. It's scattered around in the taverns over the years, and in the minds of the players. Ask away; even people who've been here for years toss their new characters to the tavern to get ideas and feedback. As for the specific character - monks are hard to run here. They need good stats across the board, and have trouble excelling in any one field. They're great for tabletop and campaigns where they can get milage out of all their skills. That said, they can be done well, but they need options. I missed the fight, but what the pitlord was referring to (I believe) is that lots of characters take a level in some kind of caster or manifester class just so they can use wands and scrolls. Scrolls being half the cost of potions - you can carry twice as many spells. You can go without, but you have to plan well. - I wouldn't grab everything on the combat expertise tree. Monks just don't have high enough base attack to get the best use from disarm, and improved feint costs a lot of skill points (unless you multiclass later). - I would consider trading improved initiative for improved grapple. High initiative is mainly a bonus on small maps where you can get to the opponent before they can drink 3 potions, or before they can rush you and catch you flat footed. It's a long way to 6th level where you get more feats, and I think you'll get more benefit durring that time from being able to grapple pesky wizards. A couple Ideas for potions - Shillelagh oil on a quarterstaff is quite the monk weapon: two weapon fighting and flurry can give you four attacks per round, but you need a 20 to hit anything. If you're fighting someone you have to roll a 20 to hit anyway, it can give you that many more chances. Toss in combat expertise and some mage armor. - shield of faith and protection from alignment potions both give that handy +2 ac, but they are short lived. - mage armor potion = +4 ac for the whole fight. - magic weapon oil works on your fists (monk fists are special like that) and all of your weapons. Sometimes a +1 counts. - later on (when you can afford it) enlarge person is your best friend. Also, I highly suggest looking toward the future of your character. If you're headed for a prestige class, or want a specific hard to get feat, then try to plan now. EDIT: so, uh, Zevox, you going to chime in so that all of the elders can have a part of this... :)
hogarth 05-16-07, 06:45 AM	why you figure that? it's a fairly standrat table - divided into sections - and only the part about "blown away" list fort save. (and it's the only effect that cause damage). Actually, for a Strong wind the save DC is next to "Knocked Down". Also notice the wording for the description of a powerful storm; in that case it specifies that any wind effect requires a DC 20 Fort save: Powerful Storms Very high winds and torrential precipitation reduce visibility to zero, making Spot, Search, and Listen checks and all ranged weapon attacks impossible. Unprotected flames are automatically extinguished, and protected flames have a 75% chance of being doused. Creatures caught in the area must make a DC 20 Fortitude save or face the effects based on the size of the creature (see Table: Wind Effects). It seems fairly redundant to require them to repeat the save DC over and over again for each category of wind.
templer10 05-16-07, 06:57 AM	Also notice the wording for the description of a powerful storm; in that case it specifies that any wind effect requires a DC 20 Fort save: It seems fairly redundant to require them to repeat the save DC over and over again for each category of wind. i think you are confusing 2 diffrent tables here - ther is the first table in the top of the page "random weather - taht have as a - 100 - powerfull storm - which can be 1 of very diffrent types of wind - the DC 20 fort is just for the hurricane option. beyond that- you are still ignoring the fact it's a table that list several diffrent effects and only after teh same effect every time - the only effect that can cause damage - it lists a save. also you are ignoring the power description that doesnt have PR or save. finally - you are ignoring the text of the table who describe part of the effects (impossibility of ranged attacks) and that doesnt give a save. p.s. - i just checked the FAQ - and in the miscallendius section it say - ""the table of wind effects in the dungeon master guide has a column that shows a DC. i dont understand this. what is the DC for? it's the DC for the fortitude save a creature makes to ressist the wind EFFECT (note - not effects) shown on the table. for example, in a strong wind, a tiny or smaller creature has to make DC 10 fortitude save or be knocked down." note- that the FAQ doesnt say that this save is also for the -2 on ranged weapons attacks so it doesnt have a save, so to put it simply - if it doesnt have a save listed - it doesnt have a save.
templer10 05-16-07, 07:11 AM	Hi. I'm new here, and I'm sure everyone's going to know what I'm going to ask. (Especially if you read the fight with my character last week.) Was there a thread anywhere that I missed that offers advice on making characters for this message board? I haven't made many D&D characters, and my first one here hasn't been very successful. (One reason I suppose, with help from the pitlord of my first fight, is that the character has no magic or psionics, and generally had nothing great about him.) Here is my character: Kazero Zenigame (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12318232&postcount=1118) I figure that since it's my first character here, I'm not going to worry if I drop him. I was going to try to have him use the feats from the Combat Expertise tree. Maybe I should go with a simpler character first? I wandered through the posted rules, but haven't been able to find these answers, so I figure it's time to ask a question that's been asked a hundred times before but answered somewhere I just haven't found yet. Also some spesific advice - it's generaly easier to stay away from melee then to force melee which is why in general chars with good ranged options work well here - so you might want to confider going that route.
hogarth 05-16-07, 07:24 AM	i think you are confusing 2 diffrent tables here - ther is the first table in the top of the page "random weather - taht have as a - 100 - powerfull storm - which can be 1 of very diffrent types of wind - the DC 20 fort is just for the hurricane option. Note that the effects of a powerful storm are the same as hurricane force winds, with the same DC. Why would they get a save in the case of a storm, but not in the case of a regular wind? (I'm not saying that's definitive proof of course, just evidence.) beyond that- you are still ignoring the fact it's a table that list several diffrent effects and only after teh same effect every time - the only effect that can cause damage - it lists a save. No, you're ignoring the fact that the save DC is always next to the first possible effect in every wind category which is not always "Blown Away". So for Strong winds, that effect is "Knocked Down" (which does not cause damage) and for the rest it is "Blown Away" -- not, in fact, the same effect every time as you say. also you are ignoring the power description that doesnt have PR or save. Control Weather says it has no save or SR. So if I use it to summon hurricane-force winds, you're saying there's no save to resist being Blown Away? Summon Nature's Ally has no save or SR. So if I cast Summon Nature's Ally to summon a poisonous snake, that snake's poison doesn't allow a save? finally - you are ignoring the text of the table who describe part of the effects (impossibility of ranged attacks) and that doesnt give a save. It doesn't say that being Blown Away gives a save anywhere other than the table; are you saying that's a contradiction with the text? p.s. - i just checked the FAQ - and in the miscallendius section it say - ""the table of wind effects in the dungeon master guide has a column that shows a DC. i dont understand this. what is the DC for? it's the DC for the fortitude save a creature makes to ressist the wind EFFECT (note - not effects) shown on the table. for example, in a strong wind, a tiny or smaller creature has to make DC 10 fortitude save or be knocked down." Every creature has one wind effect that could possibly affect them (either Blown Away, Knocked Down, or Checked). So the creature gets a Fort save to resist the wind EFFECT (note - not effects) that would apply.
templer10 05-16-07, 07:37 AM	Every creature has one wind effect that could possibly affect them (either Blown Away, Knocked Down, or Checked). So the creature gets a Fort save to resist the wind EFFECT (note - not effects) that would apply. so iam just wondering - by your reasoning - a craeture that want to make a ranged attack in windstorm strength winds can do it with just a simple DC 18 fort save? if your answer is yes- that you are wrong since the text of windstorm simply say: "Ranged weapon attacks are impossible" and they dont list save for that effects - so there is no save.
Yitzi 05-16-07, 11:30 AM	Also some spesific advice - it's generaly easier to stay away from melee then to force melee which is why in general chars with good ranged options work well here - so you might want to confider going that route. Actually, monks find it easier than most to force melee against many characters, due to their high speed and the fact that deflect arrows means that some characters have no logical choice but to use melee.
Macbrea 05-16-07, 11:36 AM	Ok, the problem with monks is without a real ranged option you will loose to spell casters. Watch this two item combo against that character. Scroll of spider climb and wand of magic missile [cl 1] There is nothing it can do against the simple mage that climbs a wall and blasts with one of the weakest damaging spell they get. Anything that takes the mage out of the reach of the monk results in a loss. There is no real action that the monk without a ranged option can take.
Yitzi 05-16-07, 12:27 PM	Not to mention that it means that after BAB 6 deflect arrows gives a big advantage in a ranged duel but not complete immunity. A monk should unquestionably have a ranged weapon, it may be more important for him than for any other character whose primary weapon is not ranged. But a monk can work very well with a secondary ranged weapon (e.g. crossbow or sling), and focusing on melee.
templer10 05-16-07, 01:07 PM	considering there was a resulotion in the council on the subject of non DMG listed wands - can they now be bought without credits or do we need to wait for something else?
Zevox 05-16-07, 01:09 PM	considering there was a resulotion in the council on the subject of non DMG listed wands - can they now be bought without credits or do we need to wait for something else? As you say, there was a resolution, so that resolution is in effect. No credit cost for wands just because they're not on that chart. I've already bought a pair with Mithos, actually. Zevox
templer10 05-16-07, 01:15 PM	As you say, there was a resolution, so that resolution is in effect. No credit cost for wands just because they're not on that chart. I've already bought a pair with Mithos, actually. Zevox hmm - just need a fight then for my CL2 wand of ressist energy (ranger crafted) then. (cheesy as hell but legal).
Zevox 05-16-07, 01:17 PM	hmm - just need a fight then for my CL2 wand of ressist energy (ranger crafted) then. (cheesy as hell but legal). *shrugs* Hey, if you could get them as scrolls, why not? I've actually got a Ranger/Wizard who will probably craft one of those herself even (see Eraca Moralta). Zevox
McJarvis 05-16-07, 01:21 PM	Can you change familiar choice after initially making it? (important for improved familiar feat choice...and I might want Davian to take a toad familiar for his first couple levels)
Zevox 05-16-07, 01:26 PM	Can you change familiar choice after initially making it? (important for improved familiar feat choice...and I might want Davian to take a toad familiar for his first couple levels) Cat ruled that a while back, yep. No need to even wait the normal year to get a new one, no penalty for dismissing the old. Thats another thing I just did with Mithos actually (level 6 feat, Improved Familiar). Zevox
McJarvis 05-16-07, 01:48 PM	Can you put spell storing on a thrown weapon such as a Throwing Axe or Javelin or Dagger? Can you activate it when throwing the weapon?
Zevox 05-16-07, 02:04 PM	Okay, it seems some more discussion is necessary about the strike random event of last week. I'm posting this in the open so all Guildmasters who want to express an opinion can, and so everyone knows that the discussions are going on, what they're about, and what the outcome is. Heres a conversation Sauro and I were having over PM: Hey Sauro, I noticed in PSI's actions this week that you haven't accounted for the strike random event. Your Goldmill is a leisure structure (secondary trait, but a leisure structure nonetheless), so it needs to either double its upkeep as a free action or produce less gold this week (as though it had 10 fewer staff). Which would you like to do? ZevoxHrmph... When I look at the List of Standard Structures, the Gold mine is listed under Industry not Leisure. As far as I see it, there are no primary and secondary classifications of structures, simply primary and secondary traits. The strike says "structures of <random> trait". It does not say "structures with <random> trait". The way you are reading it is as if the strike effects all structures with a trait. Rather it should be read that the strike effects structures under a particular classification of the List of Standard Structures. I checked with MWB before PMing you my friend. His response is just the opposite - because the event does not specify that it only affects structures with leisure as the primary trait, it affects them regardless of whether leisure is the primary or secondary trait. That was my first impression of the event as well, so at present I'm inclined to agree with him. If you'd like to argue it, I suppose we're about to have a three way conversation. (Aside: This affects me too, since EHTC has a structure with leisure as a secondary trait.) If not... well, as the first PM asked, what would you like to do? ZevoxWhat do they think this is? The Post-Industrial Revolution? Shoot. I can just hire more staff with 1 GAP, and remove all the staff as a free action. If I cannot remove the 10 strikers alone, remove them all, I can get 40 more with 1 GAP. For this week, tell the strikers to take a hike. That cuts my efficiency by a bit. Depending on how many staff I need to fire, I'll need to re-do the other GAP for this week with either a commission project, commission point processing, or just add/remove staff. Ah, hate to be the bearer of more bad news, but when TM had the same idea (as you can imagine, he was hardest hit by the event), MWB and I decided you couldn't simply fire the strikers and hire new staff, as that would render the event pretty pointless. So, yeah, everyone either has to double the upkeep or deal with reduced efficiency for a few weeks. ZevoxHow about if I just move the strikers to my pool of unallocated staff and hire new ones. Then I'll pay upkeep on the strikers for at least 3 weeks. Then I'll fire them. Well then, I'm afraid with this suggestion, as with the last, we run into the issue of it making the event much less effective than it originally was intended to be. Paying 50 gp for the staff for a few weeks and hiring replacements is a far cry from permanently doubled upkeep or three weeks of lessened efficiency and then the need to replace the strikers thereafter. It is much closer to the "fire them and hire replacements" idea though. So I'm afraid my opinion is that one shouldn't be allowed either. Zevox
McJarvis 05-16-07, 02:06 PM	Well then, I'm afraid with this suggestion, as with the last, we run into the issue of it making the event much less effective than it originally was intended to be. Paying 50 gp for the staff for a few weeks and hiring replacements is a far cry from permanently doubled upkeep or three weeks of lessened efficiency and then the need to replace the strikers thereafter. It is much closer to the "fire them and hire replacements" idea though. So I'm afraid my opinion is that one shouldn't be allowed either. Zevox Given that LOY already faced this problem & swallowed it without complaint in it's first week of existance, I don't see why there should be wiggle room around it.
MindWandererB 05-16-07, 02:09 PM	Given that LOY already faced this problem & swallowed it without complaint in it's first week of existance, I don't see why there should be wiggle room around it. I agree. The option of doubling the upkeep needs to be at least tempting. Say the leisure-workers' union won't allow scabs.
SauroGrenom 05-16-07, 02:18 PM	So when did medieval become post industrial revolution with unions? Bah. With the guilds I largely ignore stuff till I'm required to deal with it. I'm sorry LOY had to deal but to me that's immaterial. But this just strikes me as... well... stupid... and certainly not appropriate for the setting. *Shrug* Whatever. I don't mind the 1600 gp loss that it will cost PSI. We can afford to tell the strikers to take a hike. We have the resources for that to happen 4 or 5 times over. From a strategy standpoint that's probably not the best solution. The extra gold cost for upkeep will only exceed our immediate losses in 33 weeks. So one could bank against the chances of this structure or the entire guild game in this incarnation surviving 34 weeks. What bothers me is that one of my structures could permanently be "damaged".
Macbrea 05-16-07, 02:23 PM	Odd question. Resist energy is Clr 2, Drd 2, Fire 3, Pal 2, Rgr 1, Sor/Wiz 2. Is it not on the Wizards list until the spell is at less CL 3?
Zevox 05-16-07, 02:25 PM	Odd question. Resist energy is Clr 2, Drd 2, Fire 3, Pal 2, Rgr 1, Sor/Wiz 2. Is it not on the Wizards list until the spell is at less CL 3? Correct. Zevox
Zevox 05-16-07, 02:28 PM	So when did medieval become post industrial revolution with unions? This isn't the real world we're playing in though. Just because it took until the past hundred or so years for labor unions to develop in reality doesn't mean that has to be so in a fantasy world. Zevox
McJarvis 05-16-07, 02:30 PM	This isn't the real world we're playing in though. Just because it took until the past hundred or so years for labor unions to develop in reality doesn't mean that has to be so in a fantasy world. Zevox Especially given the presence of magic. I'd imagine the "information age" and all the societal changes it imposed would come much sooner given the presence of advanced arcane/divine magics :)
SauroGrenom 05-16-07, 03:00 PM	Especially given the presence of magic. I'd imagine the "information age" and all the societal changes it imposed would come much sooner given the presence of advanced arcane/divine magics :) It's not the presence or existence of technology that caused the industrial or information age. It's the proliferation of these technologies and of access to them by "regular' people that resulted in the cultural changes associated with these major periods in human history. Economies of scale made it possible for the many to gain access to the benefits awarded by the knowledge of the few. Since magic is immune to economies of scale... it could never lead to the kind of social transformation of the lives of millions of people that resulted from the industrial revolution.
McJarvis 05-16-07, 03:03 PM	It's the proliferation of these technologies and of access to them by "regular' people that resulted in the cultural changes.... Which were made possible by technologies which made convenient the quick distribution of information-> like the printing press & whatnot. You could argue that with enough resources such feats were possible before(various ancient libraries, biblical scribes which kept jewish texts in circulation), but I think the technologies lowered the bar of what was necessary for a society to achieve before they could start making such things accessible. You could even argue that the entire presence of science & mathematics were made possible by the greeks being rich enough to sit around and think instead of work for food(was this what you meant by an economy of scale making it possible?), but the society of D&D likely is facing the same problem since we have wizardry schools that do nothing but study the "science" of magic. Of course, I'm "just" a grad student. There's a good chance I don't know anything. (Can't wait 'till I get the dotorate-> ie proof that I know everything. :-) ) edit-> In fact, given that there are firearms in our little universe, I'm not sure that any correlation to "real world" history would apply at all.
SauroGrenom 05-16-07, 03:13 PM	Which were made possible by technologies which made convenient the quick distribution of information-> like the printing press & whatnot. You could argue that with enough resources such feats were possible before(various ancient libraries, biblical scribes which kept jewish texts in circulation), but I think the technologies lowered the bar of what was necessary for a society to achieve before they could start making such things accessible. Of course, I'm "just" a grad student. There's a good chance I don't know anything. (Can't wait 'till I get the dotorate-> ie proof that I know everything. :-) ) All that's true, but it simply doesn't apply to magic, at least the way magic is used in core rules. You cannot build a machine that prints out scrolls cheap. There's no way to manufacture magic items cheaply or en-mass. So there's no way that a poor peasant will every be able to get his hands on a potion of fly to use on the commute to work. I agree magic would certainly replace some of the technological advancements. But it would only widen the gap between the haves and havenots. The society would be more firmly entrenched into a social hierarchy with the extremely powerful wealthy and the totally helpless destitute.
McJarvis 05-16-07, 03:23 PM	All that's true, but it simply doesn't apply to magic, at least the way magic is used in core rules. You cannot build a machine that prints out scrolls cheap. There's no way to manufacture magic items cheaply or en-mass. So there's no way that a poor peasant will every be able to get his hands on a potion of fly to use on the commute to work. I'm pretty sure that the Red Wizards figured out ways to create strong economies based on magic item creation(they were actually very clever about it & became an economic powerhouse in the FR, though I haven't followed everything coming out of that universe closely) At the very least, there are epic spells that could accomplish such things, which would start to create an economy in and of itself.(with wizards/clerics being obvious beneficiaries, but there is little difference between this and our "richie rich" CEO's of today) I agree magic would certainly replace some of the technological advancements. But it would only widen the gap between the haves and havenots. The society would be more firmly entrenched into a social hierarchy with the extremely powerful wealthy and the totally helpless destitute. There's no way to adequately gauge this from our stance. It isn't described how easy it is to attain the status of a level 1 cleric or druid or sorcerer. While the magic class "Wizard" is obviously for "rich to-do's" only, I think a single level in any of the aforementioned character classes would turn around any "peasent"'s life for the best. Of course, we do know that there are peasents-> but whether this is because they are incapable or merely the knowledge of how to attain these goals is kept from them, is a mystery...
SauroGrenom 05-16-07, 03:36 PM	I'm pretty sure that the Red Wizards figured out ways to create strong economies based on magic item creation(they were actually very clever about it & became an economic powerhouse in the FR, though I haven't followed everything coming out of that universe closely) At the very least, there are epic spells that could accomplish such things, which would start to create an economy in and of itself.(with wizards/clerics being obvious beneficiaries, but there is little difference between this and our "richie rich" CEO's of today) There's no way to adequately gauge this from our stance. It isn't described how easy it is to attain the status of a level 1 cleric or druid or sorcerer. While the magic class "Wizard" is obviously for "rich to-do's" only, I think a single level in any of the aforementioned character classes would turn around any "peasent"'s life for the best. Of course, we do know that there are peasents-> but whether this is because they are incapable or merely the knowledge of how to attain these goals is kept from them, is a mystery... Even if you took a level in wizard or cleric or even magic domain cleric (non-trivial if you ask me), an average person wouldn't have a source of income to continuously buy scrolls and wands or permanent magic items. Access to magic isn't cheap. There are a couple things that could be done as public works. Like permanent teleportation circles for replacing long or dangerous trade routes. Or crystal balls with telepathy for communicating over long distances. But items like that would be prohibitively expensive for all but the most wealthy. My point is that even with a proliferation of knowledge, magic as dnd runs it cannot ever become for the common man (unless the common man becomes vastly more wealthy). Perhaps epic spells could be used to mass produce some kind of magic, but nothing short of that could get magic into the hands of the little people.
Usurpator 05-16-07, 04:20 PM	Ok, Frighten Allies (Intimidate) As a Free Activity, you can use your Intimidate skill to scare one or more allies of your opponent that have an intelligence of 3 or more. Your Intimidate value must be at least as high as (Ally CR + Ally Wisdom + Resistance to fear) to affect him or her (called Courage Value). There are three different effects depending on your Intimidate value relative to the Courage Value: You Intimidate value means 'you intimidate skill modifier' or your 'initimidate skill roll result'? Ally Wisdom means 'ally wisdom score' or 'ally wisdom modifier'?
MindWandererB 05-16-07, 04:22 PM	Ok, Frighten Allies (Intimidate) You Intimidate value means 'you intimidate skill modifier' or your 'initimidate skill roll result'? Ally Wisdom means 'ally wisdom score' or 'ally wisdom modifier'? Skill modifier and Wisdom modifier, respectively.
SauroGrenom 05-16-07, 05:52 PM	Are animals able to do things like use the "Withdraw" action? How about Mounts? Or untrained mounts?
Usurpator 05-16-07, 06:06 PM	Are animals able to do things like use the "Withdraw" action? How about Mounts? Or untrained mounts? Able to, sure. Will animals execute said move do it by themselves under duress, probably not. Animals (especially those not trained for war) don't have to be magically frightened or panicked to behave like they are in such a state. You might want to further specify the situation, out of context it is difficult to determine.
SauroGrenom 05-16-07, 06:26 PM	Example: A man riding a warhorse uses the withdraw action. Does his mount also use the withdraw action? Is it automatic, or does that require some kind of skill check or trick the mount knows? A man riding a warhorse "instructs" his mount to use a withdraw action while he uses a move and standard action. Will this be automatically guiding your mount with the ride skill or is this some kind of HA check to get the mount to use a withdraw trick while you are doing something else? A man sends gives instructions for his dog to attack the other guy. Since the dog is threatened, it could move away with a withdraw action, or just move away. Does the dog use the withdraw action?
Usurpator 05-16-07, 06:42 PM	Example: A man riding a warhorse uses the withdraw action. Does his mount also use the withdraw action? Is it automatic, or does that require some kind of skill check or trick the mount knows? A man riding a warhorse "instructs" his mount to use a withdraw action while he uses a move and standard action. Will this be automatically guiding your mount with the ride skill or is this some kind of HA check to get the mount to use a withdraw trick while you are doing something else? A man sends gives instructions for his dog to attack the other guy. Since the dog is threatened, it could move away with a withdraw action, or just move away. Does the dog use the withdraw action? My vote would be for 'yes' in the first two cases. The last case probably not. If the man had issued a 'come' or 'heel' command, sure, but if the dog can attack, and the man issued said command, it will probably want the dog to attack *now* regardless of consequences to its health, and it would move and attack, charge or run to the target if it could. If not, that would be tantamount to the dog not wanting crossing any threatened zone while trying to reach the new target. But if the only thing the dog could do was do a double move to reach the target, sure, withdraw is fine. My view of 'withdraw' is that it is just a double move, but that you wait briefly for the right opening to start moving.
Yitzi 05-16-07, 07:50 PM	If you use a full attack action to make attacks that provoke AoO (ranged, grapple/trip/disarm/sunder without the appropriate feat), does it provoke one AoO per attack, or one for the whole thing?
SauroGrenom 05-16-07, 07:57 PM	If you use a full attack action to make attacks that provoke AoO (ranged, grapple/trip/disarm/sunder without the appropriate feat), does it provoke one AoO per attack, or one for the whole thing? One per, but most characters can only take 1 AoO per round. Only the combat reflexes feat (in combination with a high dex) allows you to take more than 1.
Yitzi 05-16-07, 09:58 PM	Do the skill checks referred to in the burglary skill refer to taking 10 or the skill bonus?
Zevox 05-16-07, 10:02 PM	Do the skill checks referred to in the burglary skill refer to taking 10 or the skill bonus? Um, the burglary activity doesn't refer to making any skill checks at all (and therefore you don't make any). It simply says you need to have a higher open locks value than your opponent's level +5 or his open locks modifier, whichever is higher, and you can steal as much as your search modifier times its multiplier allows. Thats it. Where did you get skill checks from? Zevox
hogarth 05-16-07, 10:31 PM	so iam just wondering - by your reasoning - a craeture that want to make a ranged attack in windstorm strength winds can do it with just a simple DC 18 fort save? if your answer is yes- that you are wrong since the text of windstorm simply say: "Ranged weapon attacks are impossible" and they dont list save for that effects - so there is no save. I agree with you there -- as explained in the FAQ, the save is for the Blown Away/Knocked Down/Checked effect, not for the rest of it.
Yitzi 05-16-07, 10:32 PM	Earlier it says everything is based on taking 10 unless otherwise noted.
Aura_Blade 05-17-07, 12:51 AM	Thank you, everyone, for your advice making a better monk (and for making characters in general). Once Kazero's three fights are up, I will look at seeing if I can do him over again with Free Changes at the Training Hall, (or else start over with a newly created brother,) once I figure out what to do with his stats and equipment. I'll review what everyone has said some more and read more of other fights too.
Erithmu 05-17-07, 12:53 AM	Earlier it says everything is based on taking 10 unless otherwise noted. this falls under 'otherwise noted'
templer10 05-17-07, 03:46 AM	can you use psionic shot on any damage dealing power or does it have to be 1 that need an attack roll to hit?
MindWandererB 05-17-07, 04:09 AM	can you use psionic shot on any damage dealing power or does it have to be 1 that need an attack roll to hit? Has to be a ranged attack, i.e. uses an attack roll.
McJarvis 05-17-07, 09:49 AM	Is this just weird or what? Davian has 4 spell slots. Thus he can cast 1/3 of his spells, rounded up per fight. 4/3=1.XXX, so he can cast 2 spell slots per fight. This means by fight 2 he has access to all his spell slots. lol! Only works with the number 4, I think.
Erithmu 05-17-07, 10:03 AM	Is this just weird or what? Davian has 4 spell slots. Thus he can cast 1/3 of his spells, rounded up per fight. 4/3=1.XXX, so he can cast 2 spell slots per fight. This means by fight 2 he has access to all his spell slots. lol! Only works with the number 4, I think. It has been brought up before
Zevox 05-17-07, 10:04 AM	Is this just weird or what? Davian has 4 spell slots. Thus he can cast 1/3 of his spells, rounded up per fight. 4/3=1.XXX, so he can cast 2 spell slots per fight. This means by fight 2 he has access to all his spell slots. lol! Only works with the number 4, I think. Yup. I had that with Eraca back when she was level 4 (Ranger 2/Wizard 2), too. Wierd, but thats what happens when you have that few spell levels. Zevox
McJarvis 05-17-07, 10:04 AM	It has been brought up before You really know how to rain on a guys parade :(
Erithmu 05-17-07, 10:05 AM	You really know how to rain on a guys parade :( :raincloud <- McJarvis
TelinArtho 05-17-07, 11:20 AM	@Khaim - I would recommend reading the rules on prebuffs- you may find it is not worth it for a level 2 manifester to prebuff Inertial Armor from memory and no matter what level you are as a manifester - prebuffing Force Screen probably won't last until the first fight (it would need to be extended at ML31 to have a chance...)
TelinArtho 05-17-07, 01:07 PM	Okay - to finalize this up, I need to figure out exactly where people leveled. Again, I'm using the campaign log to figure this all out: Telveren - 1-18 - ECL10 all the way through Barthleby - 1-16 - ECL10 all the way through Luken - 1-16 - ECL10 all the way through Morgan - 1-6 - ECL9 for his duration. If I did conscripts, I'd be getting 39 regiments (10*3 + 9*1) for the first 6 weeks; 30 regiments for the next 10 weeks and 10 regiments for the last 2. If I did a trade agreement, I'd be looking at 390 guild points for the first 6 weeks, 300 for the next 10, and 100 for the last 2. Is this all correct? For the trade agreement, since I have perfect deal, I get to double these amounts (780, 600, 200 respectively)? And I don't need to use up the few trade points I have right? Okay - so how do I put this in my guild actions for a given week? [Free Action] |=> Form Campaign Trade Agreement |=> Use Perfect Deal to double duration of Trade Agreement |=> 390 [BLAH]-PTS for 12 weeks, 300 [BLAH]-PTS for 20 weeks, 100 [BLAH]-PTS for 4 weeks. Where [BLAH] are all the same type of points.
Khaim 05-17-07, 01:13 PM	@Khaim - I would recommend reading the rules on prebuffs- you may find it is not worth it for a level 2 manifester to prebuff Inertial Armor from memory and no matter what level you are as a manifester - prebuffing Force Screen probably won't last until the first fight (it would need to be extended at ML31 to have a chance...) The rules seemed rather unclear. I think I see what you're saying, though- the "time between fights" applies between when you prebuff and when the fight starts, right? Thanks for the tip.
TelinArtho 05-17-07, 01:17 PM	Correct - the time between fights roll applies for your prebuffs (and lasting effects from the previous week(s) if applicable). If a CL2 Mage Armor is prebuffed for week 1 - if the time roll is a 1 - it lasts for the first fight. If the time roll is >1 - then it ends before the fight begins. If a CL2 Mage Armor is cast during the fight in week 1 and the time roll for the following week is 1 - it lasts for the first fight and the second fight (assuming the first fight doesn't last longer than 1 hour anyway...) Personally, I wouldn't advise prebuffing effects that have durations of 16 hours or less (preferably 19 hours...). Even my Paladin (level 9 paladin) only prebuffs his Special mount when he has to... (18 hour duration - but if I get REAL unlucky - and get 6s for each of the time rolls - he could end up without his special mount in the last battle).
TelinArtho 05-17-07, 01:18 PM	Did I miss something? I thought there was a 24-hour downtime announcement... has it gone away?
Khaim 05-17-07, 01:21 PM	Did I miss something? I thought there was a 24-hour downtime announcement... has it gone away? I noticed that too... Oh well, I'm not complaining. As for prebuffs: If I know I'm going to spend the first few rounds casting buffs, I may as well cast them ahead of time and save the actions, no?
Erithmu 05-17-07, 09:01 PM	It is the rule of Scotty ... always over estimate so when you finish it sooner you look like the hero.
hogarth 05-17-07, 09:09 PM	Is this just weird or what? Davian has 4 spell slots. Thus he can cast 1/3 of his spells, rounded up per fight. 4/3=1.XXX, so he can cast 2 spell slots per fight. This means by fight 2 he has access to all his spell slots. lol! Only works with the number 4, I think. It works with 1 or 2 spell slots as well (of course).
McJarvis 05-17-07, 09:35 PM	I noticed that too... Oh well, I'm not complaining. As for prebuffs: If I know I'm going to spend the first few rounds casting buffs, I may as well cast them ahead of time and save the actions, no? Which is why we have the "hours between prebuffs" rules. Back in the day it was _impossible_ to prebuff something unless it had a duration of more than 16 hours :-O And before you think of it-> no prebuffing with "holding the charge" on a touch spell ;)
Erithmu 05-17-07, 10:52 PM	(Conversation moved out of courtroom) @Yitzi/Hogarth: Yea I got like 3 dragons to slay this week. #1) Paper due Wednesday morning #2) Red Dragon that Iggy is fighting #3) Telin's dice roller officiating the Red Dragon fight
hogarth 05-17-07, 11:06 PM	(Conversation moved out of courtroom) @Yitzi/Hogarth: Yea I got like 3 dragons to slay this week. #1) Paper due Wednesday morning #2) Red Dragon that Iggy is fighting #3) Telin's dice roller officiating the Red Dragon fight I'm not in a big rush -- work has been keeping me extra-extra-busy lately too. But at least there's no confusion over whether Treetall can cast Summon Swarm and try to move away now.
Zevox 05-17-07, 11:18 PM	Okay - so how do I put this in my guild actions for a given week? [Free Action] |=> Form Campaign Trade Agreement |=> Use Perfect Deal to double duration of Trade Agreement |=> 390 [BLAH]-PTS for 12 weeks, 300 [BLAH]-PTS for 20 weeks, 100 [BLAH]-PTS for 4 weeks. Where [BLAH] are all the same type of points. That'd work all right. Though you should also give me a name for the region and whether it ships by land or sea, so I can deal with the possibility of highwayman/pirate raids on it appropriately. Zevox
SauroGrenom 05-17-07, 11:36 PM	I need a few clarifications on the Wall of Thorns spell... (1)Can this spell effect be "shaped" as the Wall of Stone into an enclosure? I think not. All the other "wall" spells which can be shaped into enclosures specifically say that they are able to form various shapes, but the wall of thorns does not say that. (2) Does a character trapped within a wall of thorns take damage when they do anything? The spell description only describes damage if the character moves. I assume that's using a move in the sense of going to another square on the map. Or does that mean that the character does anything involving movement (like casting a spell with somatic components).
Abyssal Stalker 05-18-07, 12:54 AM	Good news: I finally got an internet connection to our new home. I am trying to be a little more active now that the only place I get to access CoCo isn't work anymore.
TelinArtho 05-18-07, 12:55 AM	That'd work all right. Though you should also give me a name for the region and whether it ships by land or sea, so I can deal with the possibility of highwayman/pirate raids on it appropriately. Zevox So I guess that means I should read a little into the campaign and figure out where it went... and by what route... Ok - thanks.
Rauul 05-18-07, 02:08 AM	Looking for the Cost of a crafted Mithral Breastplate.. and the Dc to make it is it 4200 gp /2 with a Dc of 15 and am i correct with the Stats.. Mithral Breastplate Ac +5 Max dex bonus 5, ACP 0, Speed 30, Wieght 15 lbs?
Sjiggie 05-18-07, 05:31 AM	The craft DC for Mithrill Breastplate is 20 because it is a masterwork item. The stats are AC +5 Max Dex bonus 5 ACP -1 Speed 30 weight 15 lbs.
hogarth 05-18-07, 06:51 AM	(1) The effect is: Effect: Wall of thorny brush, up to one 10-ft. cube/level (S) The "(S)" means "shapeable" as described here: (S) Shapeable If an Area or Effect entry ends with "(S)," you can shape the spell. A shaped effect or area can have no dimension smaller than 10 feet. Many effects or areas are given as cubes to make it easy to model irregular shapes. Three-dimensional volumes are most often needed to define aerial or underwater effects and areas. So it can be any arrangement of 10' cubes as long as they're contiguous. (2) I agree with "move"="move to another square on the map". Note that Telin ruled otherwise ("move"="do anything") in one of the Iron Man fights (incorrectly, IMO). I need a few clarifications on the Wall of Thorns spell... (1)Can this spell effect be "shaped" as the Wall of Stone into an enclosure? I think not. All the other "wall" spells which can be shaped into enclosures specifically say that they are able to form various shapes, but the wall of thorns does not say that. (2) Does a character trapped within a wall of thorns take damage when they do anything? The spell description only describes damage if the character moves. I assume that's using a move in the sense of going to another square on the map. Or does that mean that the character does anything involving movement (like casting a spell with somatic components).
Rauul 05-18-07, 06:54 AM	The craft DC for Mithrill Breastplate is 20 because it is a masterwork item. The stats are AC +5 Max Dex bonus 5 ACP -1 Speed 30 weight 15 lbs. Ok.. but i believe the ACP is 0 because of the wording under Mithril.. Mithral Mithral is a very rare silvery, glistening metal that is lighter than iron but just as hard. When worked like steel, it becomes a wonderful material from which to create armor and is occasionally used for other items as well. Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonus is increased by 2, and armor check penalties are lessened by 3 (to a minimum of 0). An item made from mithral weighs half as much as the same item made from other metals. In the case of weapons, this lighter weight does not change a weapon’s size category or the ease with which it can be wielded (whether it is light, one-handed, or two-handed). Items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of mithral. (A longsword can be a mithral weapon, while a scythe cannot be.) Weapons or armors fashioned from mithral are always masterwork items as well; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below. Since the only benefit of a masterworked item is -1 ACP and it can be enchanted.. I may be wrong.. but after looking in some WoTC Modules and seeing the ACP 0 Mithral Breastplates (non enchanted) i don't believe i am..
templer10 05-18-07, 07:19 AM	Ok.. but i believe the ACP is 0 because of the wording under Mithril.. Since the only benefit of a masterworked item is -1 ACP and it can be enchanted.. I may be wrong.. but after looking in some WoTC Modules and seeing the ACP 0 Mithral Breastplates (non enchanted) i don't believe i am.. Mithral already contains the cost of a masterwork item so it also contains the benefits. for example note the mithral full plate of speed which has ACP of -3 and normal plate armor has ACP of -6.
TelinArtho 05-18-07, 11:24 AM	Okay - I've been working on this concept for a while and I'm not sure how I want to proceed with it. The basic idea is making use of divine might to maximize damage (again - no psionics...), and having a plethora of abilities to choose from. From this line of thinking I've got two designs: Aasimar Cleric (Charm/Luck) 1/Sorcerer 1/Paladin 3/Dragon Disciple 4 at ECL10. Wielding a Greatsword, he'd have Power Attack, Divine Might, Leadership, and then I'm not sure what for level 9. His charisma would be 24 permanently with the charm domain able to boost it to 28 once per day for one minute. This would give him access to 10/12 turn undead attempts each day. The main downside is that at ECL3, he's just a level 1 Cleric and a level 1 Sorcerer. Other than that though - I feel he has a decent chance throughout, though he doesn't get 2 attacks/round until ECL10. An alternative build goes on a different route and uses TWF to have more attacks earlier, but sacrifices the nice saving throw boost (or at least sacrifices until later on in his career. Human Cleric (Charm/Luck) 1, Sorcerer 1, Fighter 4+ or Fighter 4/Paladin 2/Dragon Disciple 2 or Fighter 4/Dragon Disciple 4. This build I think is a little stronger earlier, but has a heavier feat load: Power Attack (Human), Divine Might (1st), Two-weapon Fighting (3rd), Exotic WP: Orc Double Axe (Fighter 1), Weapon Focus: Orc Double Axe (Fighter 2), Leadership (6th), Weapon Specialization: Orc Double Axe (Fighter 4), Quickdraw or Imp. Two Weapon Fighting(9th) This build would use a greatsword to charge in (until ECL6 with the WS: Orc Double Axe) and then switch to the orc double axe for divine might. Both builds would use a mithril shirt for armor and spells to help boost AC and speed (Shield, Shield of Faith/Prot. from Alignment, Expeditious Retreat). Scrolls of utility spells to help make the build more viable (See Invisibility, etc), and finally Leadership to help round out the character (my first character to be built to have leadership later on).
Abyssal Stalker 05-18-07, 12:22 PM	QUESTLORD AVAILABLE :) If there is someone who needs a questlord, I am willing to run some mini/quests.
Erithmu 05-18-07, 01:13 PM	Okay - I've been working on this concept for a while and I'm not sure how I want to proceed with it. The basic idea is making use of divine might to maximize damage (again - no psionics...), and having a plethora of abilities to choose from. From this line of thinking I've got two designs: Aasimar Cleric (Charm/Luck) 1/Sorcerer 1/Paladin 3/Dragon Disciple 4 at ECL10. Wielding a Greatsword, he'd have Power Attack, Divine Might, Leadership, and then I'm not sure what for level 9. His charisma would be 24 permanently with the charm domain able to boost it to 28 once per day for one minute. This would give him access to 10/12 turn undead attempts each day. The main downside is that at ECL3, he's just a level 1 Cleric and a level 1 Sorcerer. Other than that though - I feel he has a decent chance throughout, though he doesn't get 2 attacks/round until ECL10. Throwing out some options: What is stopping you from taking Paladin earlier? I'm sure the scrolls are nice, but starting out cleric 1/Paladin 1 wouldn't be that bad. As it is you can't take divine might till ECL 4 due to feat needs. You could even start Paladin 2, pick up cleric at 3, Remember that you need to have either the level of cleric or the level of sorcerer at 5th if you want to avoid spending cc ranks for the K(Arc requirement) You could even baseline another base class instead of that 3rd paladin level, your saves will already be through the roof. You could also baseline as clr1/Pal2/Bard2. All the buffing spells you want are on the bard list, and you could pick up something like expy retreat. It isn't a true strike spell, but I think you are going to want your mobility options. See invis is also a bard spell. An alternative build goes on a different route and uses TWF to have more attacks earlier, but sacrifices the nice saving throw boost (or at least sacrifices until later on in his career. Human Cleric (Charm/Luck) 1, Sorcerer 1, Fighter 4+ or Fighter 4/Paladin 2/Dragon Disciple 2 or Fighter 4/Dragon Disciple 4. This build I think is a little stronger earlier, but has a heavier feat load: Power Attack (Human), Divine Might (1st), Two-weapon Fighting (3rd), Exotic WP: Orc Double Axe (Fighter 1), Weapon Focus: Orc Double Axe (Fighter 2), Leadership (6th), Weapon Specialization: Orc Double Axe (Fighter 4), Quickdraw or Imp. Two Weapon Fighting(9th) This build would use a greatsword to charge in (until ECL6 with the WS: Orc Double Axe) and then switch to the orc double axe for divine might. Both builds would use a mithril shirt for armor and spells to help boost AC and speed (Shield, Shield of Faith/Prot. from Alignment, Expeditious Retreat). Scrolls of utility spells to help make the build more viable (See Invisibility, etc), and finally Leadership to help round out the character (my first character to be built to have leadership later on). I think this is stronger on paper, but I wonder how often you will get your full attack. Farig has trip to keep her opponents close, but this would have no ability to keep opponents close. If you are going to go with the DD option I might just look at just using your natural attacks for close range and pick up multiattack. Would be slightly less feat intensive, but then again at higher levels the feats will grant more attacks.
SoulLord 05-18-07, 01:24 PM	QUESTLORD AVAILABLE :) If there is someone who needs a questlord, I am willing to run some mini/quests. Here I need one for Vandelar to gather some bones :)
MindWandererB 05-18-07, 02:27 PM	I just updated the guild map, and it looks like things are heating up. EHTC has put up a barrier between themselves and CEF (I'm assuming that's where they want it; the GAP didn't specify), and Gladius Park is just plain ugly-looking.
Abyssal Stalker 05-18-07, 03:12 PM	Here I need one for Vandelar to gather some bones :) Just mark me into the title line. If you like, you could send some info if you have something to work with. I gather it's a miniquest for something to animate?
Rauul 05-18-07, 03:25 PM	QUESTLORD AVAILABLE :) If there is someone who needs a questlord, I am willing to run some mini/quests. You avalable next week? Shadow is looking to kill someone just to kill them (hint) and just gained sneak attack to go with his 24 hide skill :)
Abyssal Stalker 05-18-07, 03:31 PM	I'll take that too. OK, two's enough :)
Zevox 05-18-07, 03:34 PM	I just updated the guild map, and it looks like things are heating up. EHTC has put up a barrier between themselves and CEF (I'm assuming that's where they want it; the GAP didn't specify), and Gladius Park is just plain ugly-looking. Correct me if I'm wrong, but nothing in the Gate description indicates it only gets set up at one border of the district. It seems to simply work for the whole deal. Edit: Huh, actually, it does indicate such. When did that happen... oh well, yeah, the Duken Marina/Gawane border is the one we want. Zevox
SauroGrenom 05-18-07, 03:34 PM	I just updated the guild map, and it looks like things are heating up. EHTC has put up a barrier between themselves and CEF (I'm assuming that's where they want it; the GAP didn't specify), and Gladius Park is just plain ugly-looking. Hey the colors clash really bad. Is that my fault? Besides who's the guildmaster over at LOY anyway? Is that hogarth now or is McJarvis still running the show?
McJarvis 05-18-07, 03:37 PM	Hey the colors clash really bad. Is that my fault? I'd say so-> since PSI didn't start expanding in that district until after LOY was almost done with their outpost :) Besides who's the guildmaster over at LOY anyway? Is that hogarth now or is McJarvis still running the show? Hirm is. Since I'm now the WAR assistant guildmaster it'd be akward if I ran the show over at LOY.
TelinArtho 05-18-07, 03:49 PM	Throwing out some options: What is stopping you from taking Paladin earlier? I'm sure the scrolls are nice, but starting out cleric 1/Paladin 1 wouldn't be that bad. As it is you can't take divine might till ECL 4 due to feat needs. You could even start Paladin 2, pick up cleric at 3, Remember that you need to have either the level of cleric or the level of sorcerer at 5th if you want to avoid spending cc ranks for the K(Arc requirement) You could even baseline another base class instead of that 3rd paladin level, your saves will already be through the roof. You could also baseline as clr1/Pal2/Bard2. All the buffing spells you want are on the bard list, and you could pick up something like expy retreat. It isn't a true strike spell, but I think you are going to want your mobility options. See invis is also a bard spell. The reasons for going Cleric -> Sorcerer -> Paladin is for two points: 1. I can't multiclass out of Paladin and then gain paladin levels later. 2. I want to have direct access to Exp. Retreat earlier so that I don't need to rely on a mount. I'm not real concerned about spending cross-class ranks for the knowledge requirement - but if I wanted, I could swap out a paladin level for a 2nd level in cleric or sorcerer (probably the latter), before picking up the prestige class. After the two levels of paladin, picking up a level of fighter is also an option if I decide on a feat that I need... As to bard - I'm not getting as much as I would be with sorcerer. Sorcerer nets me one less HP, access to a wider variety of spells and a familiar (alertness is never a bad thing...). Bard does give me the ability to perform (inspire courage), but not nearly as many spells per day. True strike also happens to be on my short list of spells for the sorcerer to gain (nothing like power attacking for my full BAB with a two-handed weapon...). For bard, I would also essentially be required to take 2 levels in order to gain the first level spells that I would want (unless they were in scroll form), and wouldn't gain me shield - an arguably very important spell... I think this is stronger on paper, but I wonder how often you will get your full attack. Farig has trip to keep her opponents close, but this would have no ability to keep opponents close. If you are going to go with the DD option I might just look at just using your natural attacks for close range and pick up multiattack. Would be slightly less feat intensive, but then again at higher levels the feats will grant more attacks. You do bring up a good point on the full attack issue - though frankly Farig has not had a problem full attacking. This has less to do with her ability to trip as it is that the opponent wants to be taking offensive actions. Running away doesn't really lend itself to that. Still - it is certainly a point to be made. The only other concern with your reference to Farig is that I already have a two-weapon fighter out there right now... I hadn't really considered the natural attacks. That actually makes using the greatsword a little more possible - since I'd still be getting a secondary attack from the bite if I wanted. I could pick up Multi-attack with the level 9 feat for either build as well.
TelinArtho 05-18-07, 03:51 PM	Hey the colors clash really bad. Is that my fault? Besides who's the guildmaster over at LOY anyway? Is that hogarth now or is McJarvis still running the show? Are you guys looking at the same map that I am? The one in the guild hall says it was last updated May 2.
Usurpator 05-18-07, 04:12 PM	I just wanted to say I'm very impressed with all the interesting character builds you guys make here in the CoCo. Very nice to see what can be done with D&D in the hands of creative people with a good sense of the rules. People come and go, but I rarely see repeat builds, just different angles on similar themes perhaps. Hats off to you.
McJarvis 05-18-07, 04:16 PM	I just wanted to say I'm very impressed with all the interesting character builds you guys make here in the CoCo. Very nice to see what can be done with D&D in the hands of creative people with a good sense of the rules. People come and go, but I rarely see repeat builds, just different angles on similar themes perhaps. Hats off to you. Yeah, we're pretty awesome.
MindWandererB 05-18-07, 06:52 PM	Are you guys looking at the same map that I am? The one in the guild hall says it was last updated May 2. Try hitting refresh. It's been updated twice since then.... Oh, and @Zevox: You must have missed the gate thing from the beginning, 'cause it was like that when it was invented.
TheMagister 05-18-07, 07:46 PM	I just updated the guild map, and it looks like things are heating up. EHTC has put up a barrier between themselves and CEF (I'm assuming that's where they want it; the GAP didn't specify), and Gladius Park is just plain ugly-looking. Could you update the PMG strengths sometime? They're pretty out of date in their individual descriptions. TM
MindWandererB 05-18-07, 07:48 PM	Could you update the PMG strengths sometime? They're pretty out of date in their individual descriptions. TM That's Guildlords' (Zevox's) job, but the guildmasters should send a PM whenever a strength-altering operation succeeds.
TheMagister 05-18-07, 07:53 PM	Bah, I forgot that you weren't doing that anymore. I'll get on it. TM
McJarvis 05-18-07, 08:18 PM	Bit of an odd question... If you fail to meet the prereqs of a prestige class for racial/template reasons, do you automatically lose the abilities of the class? Examples: An Arcane Archer becoming a vampire A Half-Celestial Dwarven Defender A Red Wizard becoming a Lich (!?!?!?!!?) I think I'm right on that, but find it exceedingly strange since there were top red-wizard liches in the FR.
TheMagister 05-18-07, 08:23 PM	Wow. What an odd question! I think there's such a thing as too legalistic (taking away an entire prestige class b/c a character got bit by a vampire just sucks). Unfortunately, I think by the RAW you'd HAVE to. Yuck.
McJarvis 05-18-07, 08:25 PM	So much for my Half-fiend Red Wizard idea :(
TheMagister 05-18-07, 08:28 PM	Why on earth would you want to lose that many caster levels?!
McJarvis 05-18-07, 08:35 PM	Why on earth would you want to lose that many caster levels?! So I could get max Saving throws. Red Wizards get to "Cheat" with circle casting and more or less ignore what level of spells they can cast. Example: At level 11(with circle casting): Int: 18(base)+2(advancement)+2(human paragon!)+6(enhancement)=28. +9 modifier. Spell save: 10(base)+9(int)+9(because you heightened the spell in question via circle magic)+1(tat focus)+2(spell foci)=31 But that's as high as it gets for quite a few levels!(barring crafting tomes or higher enhancement items...which will still take a few levels) This is because you "cheated" and got your 9th level spells early! The solution, of course, is to take LA to get boni to int. :) I chose half-fiend because I can cast anti-magic field & still be able to fly away from my opponent. +4 int & (ex)fly speed = happy days. It also explains why Red Wizards feel at liberty to take the Lich template. I was scouring over high-level spells today for better save-or-dies, and they seem to kind of...die out after a while.(especially if you can heighten lesser ones) Higher level wizard spells get incredibly potent at dealing with multiple smaller enemies & making them die(circle of death), but the single-opponent dead spells seem to top out at 5th or 6th level...? [Of course, the spells start doing other things that are amazing, but it's hard to get better than a single-target, no HD cap, flat out save or die with just 1 saving throw. I mean, other than multiple target ones... edit-> Of course, if I missed some easy way to increase saving throws beyond the tactics I've employed, just let me know.
hogarth 05-18-07, 09:12 PM	Odd question. Resist energy is Clr 2, Drd 2, Fire 3, Pal 2, Rgr 1, Sor/Wiz 2. Is it not on the Wizards list until the spell is at less CL 3? I disagree with Zevox; a spell is either on your spell list or it isn't, regardless of caster level (at least as far as using a wand or scroll is concerned). In fact, I'm not sure Zevox agrees with himself! I seem to recall that Annalina Vale had a CL 1 wand of CLW even though a bard can't cast Cure Light Wounds at CL 1.
MindWandererB 05-18-07, 09:17 PM	I disagree with Zevox; a spell is either on your spell list or it isn't, regardless of caster level (at least as far as using a wand or scroll is concerned). In fact, I'm not sure Zevox agrees with himself! I seem to recall that Annalina Vale had a CL 1 wand of CLW even though a bard can't cast Cure Light Wounds at CL 1. I think what Macbrea and Zevox were getting at was that it's possible to have a CL 2, 50 gp divine scroll of Resist Energy, but arcane casters have to go with the CL 3, 150 gp version.
McJarvis 05-18-07, 09:18 PM	I think what Macbrea and Zevox were getting at was that it's possible to have a CL 2, 50 gp divine scroll of Resist Energy, but arcane casters have to go with the CL 3, 150 gp version. That isn't really supported by the rules. An overly obvious example is that Wizards may only be able to craft CL5/SL3 scrolls of heroism, but they can certainly buy and use bard-crafted ones that are CL4/SL2 if they want to. Items don't "remember" who crafted them. All the rules talk about is whether the spell in question is on your spell list. edit-> Other than, of course, whether it's a divine caster or not[In the case of scrolls specifically]
hogarth 05-18-07, 09:22 PM	I think what Macbrea and Zevox were getting at was that it's possible to have a CL 2, 50 gp divine scroll of Resist Energy, but arcane casters have to go with the CL 3, 150 gp version. Certainly arcane casters can't use a divine spell scroll, but a wizard could use a CL 1 arcane scroll of Tasha's Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter. Here are the requirements: To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements. * The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.) * The user must have the spell on his or her class list. * The user must have the requisite ability score. Since Tasha's Laughter is arcane, on the wizard spell list and the wizard has a high enough Int, he's eligible. There's no such thing as a "bard" scroll or a "ranger" scroll, just arcane and divine.
Zevox 05-18-07, 10:20 PM	That isn't really supported by the rules. An overly obvious example is that Wizards may only be able to craft CL5/SL3 scrolls of heroism, but they can certainly buy and use bard-crafted ones that are CL4/SL2 if they want to. Items don't "remember" who crafted them. All the rules talk about is whether the spell in question is on your spell list. edit-> Other than, of course, whether it's a divine caster or not[In the case of scrolls specifically] The difference is in whether the scroll is arcane or divine in nature - the scroll rules state outright that you must have the scroll be of the correct type to use it. There is no arcane casting class that gets Resist Energy before CL 3 and SL 2, so they don't get it before then. As for Annalina, it looks to me like the wand rules lack the requisition that the spell be of the correct type in the arcane/divine sense, which makes her wand perfectly legal. And even if it did, I would only have been error while she was ECL 3, since starting at level 4 she had Ranger levels. Zevox
Vathelokai 05-18-07, 11:31 PM	Bit of an odd question... If you fail to meet the prereqs of a prestige class for racial/template reasons, do you automatically lose the abilities of the class? Examples: An Arcane Archer becoming a vampire A Half-Celestial Dwarven Defender A Red Wizard becoming a Lich (!?!?!?!!?) I think I'm right on that, but find it exceedingly strange since there were top red-wizard liches in the FR. Wow. What an odd question! I think there's such a thing as too legalistic (taking away an entire prestige class b/c a character got bit by a vampire just sucks). Unfortunately, I think by the RAW you'd HAVE to. Yuck. :mymy: Holy :censored:! If Zodiac can't get the lich template later on, I'm gonna be ticked. I think the elders should do something about this.... hey wait a second.... :shifty: I'll bring it up later; but I suppose I have to abstain from voting; would only be fair.
Zevox 05-18-07, 11:49 PM	I don't see anything in the Prestige Class rules saying that you lose all class abilities if you no longer qualify for the class... ...and to be honest, I don't think that any of the examples given qualify in that regard anyway. A Half-Fiend Elf is still an Elf, so it would qualify for the Arcane Archer PrC. A Half-Celestial Dwarf is still a Dwarf, so it could be a Dwarven Defender. A Human Lich is still a human, so it could still a Red Wizard. What matters is the base race, not the present type. I think I'm right on that, but find it exceedingly strange since there were top red-wizard liches in the FR. Ah yes, good ol' Szass Tam. Of course, FR doesn't run under all the core D&D rules anyway. One of the things I like most about it is that you can't get divine magic/powers there without it coming from the divine - a deity, archfiend, or celestial paragon - unlike in the core rules which allow getting it from faith or nature. Zevox
Guildlords 05-18-07, 11:51 PM	@ Vath/SoulLord - I'm still waiting for accounting from TAO. Please, please don't make me have you guys lose your income for the week as well as your actions! Zevox
Vathelokai 05-19-07, 12:24 AM	@ Vath/SoulLord - I'm still waiting for accounting from TAO. Please, please don't make me have you guys lose your income for the week as well as your actions! Zevox Working on it right now.
Vathelokai 05-19-07, 12:29 AM	I don't see anything in the Prestige Class rules saying that you lose all class abilities if you no longer qualify for the class... ...and to be honest, I don't think that any of the examples given qualify in that regard anyway. A Half-Fiend Elf is still an Elf, so it would qualify for the Arcane Archer PrC. A Half-Celestial Dwarf is still a Dwarf, so it could be a Dwarven Defender. A Human Lich is still a human, so it could still a Red Wizard. What matters is the base race, not the present type. Zevox The problem is that getting the template changes your type. Becoming a lich changes you from 'humanoid [human]' to 'undead'. Half fiends (inherited template) are outsiders from the start. My understanding is that you don't get to keep the subtype (human) if you gain the lich template; you're just an undead that looks human. This wouldn't cause you to loose already gained levels. Whether you can gain levels in the future or not is debateable.
Zevox 05-19-07, 12:44 AM	The problem is that getting the template changes your type. Becoming a lich changes you from 'humanoid [human]' to 'undead'. Half fiends (inherited template) are outsiders from the start. My understanding is that you don't get to keep the subtype (human) if you gain the lich template; you're just an undead that looks human. I'm aware. I'm saying that the base race is what should not matter, not the presence or absence of the subtype. I don't see anything in the rules specifying one way or the other, and the former would make the most sense to me. Zevox
TheMagister 05-19-07, 12:51 AM	Oh, you want things to make sense!! Well then! Let's discuss the flurrying of touch spells, and whether or not being touched with a magically burning sword deals fire damage to the victim! (friendly sarcasm)
Zevox 05-19-07, 01:00 AM	Oh, you want things to make sense!! Well then! Let's discuss the flurrying of touch spells, and whether or not being touched with a magically burning sword deals fire damage to the victim! (friendly sarcasm) *shrugs* Not a ruling I was involved in. And to be perfectly honest, the sheer number of back and forth arguments you guys had over it scares me, so I kinda stopped following it after about the first day. Zevox
MindWandererB 05-19-07, 01:23 AM	I don't see anything in the Prestige Class rules saying that you lose all class abilities if you no longer qualify for the class...It's not in the SRD, but it is in the DMG.
Vathelokai 05-19-07, 01:24 AM	@ Vath/SoulLord - I'm still waiting for accounting from TAO. Please, please don't make me have you guys lose your income for the week as well as your actions! Zevox Late accounting sent. Also, Next weeks actions/accounting sent.:eek:
Vathelokai 05-19-07, 01:25 AM	It's not in the SRD, but it is in the DMG. Hrmmm... I'll be looking for a loophole tomorrow... I was really fond of the build I was working on.
TheMagister 05-19-07, 01:46 AM	Hmm. It never got ugly or anything. {shrug} You're a common-sense kinda fellow. I think you'd've agreed with me. I pretty much had an even split on the issue: Niqil and Sauro totally against, Telin for, and MWB a sympathetic "maybe". I'd actually really appreciate it if You and Vath and Telin and Sauro and Niqil and MWB revisited the issue. It starts here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=787624&page=22), post #434, and continues for 4 blisteringly interesting pages. :)
Zevox 05-19-07, 01:57 AM	It's not in the SRD, but it is in the DMG. I don't see anything saying you lose all class abilities if you no longer qualify for a PrC in there either. Zevox
Rauul 05-19-07, 04:30 AM	The problem is that getting the template changes your type. Becoming a lich changes you from 'humanoid [human]' to 'undead'. Half fiends (inherited template) are outsiders from the start. My understanding is that you don't get to keep the subtype (human) if you gain the lich template; you're just an undead that looks human. This wouldn't cause you to loose already gained levels. Whether you can gain levels in the future or not is debateable. I have to agree... and I have corrupter a a Red Wizard (next level) and am Planning on taking the Lich template when he can.. But i would say that he wouldn't advance as a Red wizard once the Template is taken, as at that point he no longer is human but Undead.. But he was Human and as Lich saids they keep all their former powers.. whats the problem.. won't be able to advance as a red wizard.. but just as a wizard.. I have never seen a Prestige class say that if you no longer qualify for it you loose all you gained... I have seen Normal classes (cleric, paladin ect..) say that.. Monks don't thou... they keep everything as do barbarians..
Usurpator 05-19-07, 04:38 AM	Let's discuss the flurrying of touch spells, and whether or not being touched with a magically burning sword deals fire damage to the victim! Can't you flurry touch spells? I have always waited for a good moments to use produce flame and flurry with Nexa, but it never came up. To get rid of a summoned swarm or such. I guess you could argue a flurry is touching with 'an unarmed strike' and a touch attack touching 'with a single appendage'. But that's a general problem with delivering touch attacks through unarmed strikes. Logically, I would see no reason why only the first attack in a flurry (or any sort of multiple attacks) would deliver fire damage from a produce flame and subsequent would not. Hmmm... I guess produce flame isn't a spell with range: touch, but allows you to make melee touch attacks. So it's similar, but not the same as a touch spell. According to what we ruled (and argued a long time) touch spells can release their energy involuntarily even, by just touching anything. That was why my characters in past fights have lost their touch spell by picking up a sword. I don't think you can have it both ways. Either voluntarily (as a conscious act) and limit such a transfer to once/round, or involuntarily with no limit per round (and thus flurryable)
TheMagister 05-19-07, 04:45 AM	Hmm. It never got ugly or anything. {shrug} You're a common-sense kinda fellow. I think you'd've agreed with me. I pretty much had an even split on the issue: Niqil and Sauro totally against, Telin for, and MWB a sympathetic "maybe". I'd actually really appreciate it if You and Vath and Telin and Sauro and Niqil and MWB revisited the issue. It starts here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=787624&page=22), post #434, and continues for 4 blisteringly interesting pages. :) See if you can follow Sauro's and Niqil's logic against being able to flurry touch spells in our discussion in the Courtroom thread. Open all the pages first (the site's gonna go down in about 15 min). TM
Usurpator 05-19-07, 06:09 AM	See if you can follow Sauro's and Niqil's logic against being able to flurry touch spells in our discussion in the Courtroom thread. Open all the pages first (the site's gonna go down in about 15 min). TM I have been reading a part of the argument, and while I understand Sauro's point of view: Yes the monk can ignore the spell and make a normal unarmed strike. I've been saying this all along. The only sacrifice is that you make an attack against the normal AC of the opponent instead of touch AC. It is simply at odds with his earlier opinion that when you touch someone (or something) with a charged touch spell, that spell is discharged regardless if you want it or not. The end results was that as a Monk I could care less if I'm charged with touch spell or not, I'm simply attacking with my unarmed attack, ignoring the touch spell completely, and as soon as I hit my opponent, the touch spell goes off regardless of what I am doing and what I desire. That how it was ruled in the past. I can live fine with either solution, voluntary discharge of touch spells or involuntary discharge. But I cannot live with involuntary discharge of touch spells, except when you attack with unarmed strikes (flurry or nor), like the unarmed strike somehow temporarily disables the charge. My old argument was caused by Maeril discharging his shocking grasp because he picked up his Greatsword after casting the spell. The Pitlord rules that picking up said weapon in a charged hand discharged the touch spell, Elders agreed with this reading of 'involuntary discharge' of said spell upon any touch. Even my argument that I could have charged my elbow or the point of my nose didn't sway the Elders. @The Magister: I have no problem imagining delivering a 'touch spell' requires a special technique, that you have to deliver it in a special way, concentrate at exactly the right moment etc. thus making it incompatible with the technique to deliver a Monk's unarmed strikes (the martial arts technique). I have a problem with my characters losing touch spells to touching anything, but then not loosing it when the deliberately touch something through an unarmed strike. That screams 'unfair' to me. My proposal then was to strike the following: "If the caster touches anything, even unintentionally, the spell discharges." Since that is IMO a poorly worded rule that is the core of this whole problem. It makes caster unable to deliver touch spells under water, in rain etc. (you get the idea).
Hirumajoe 05-19-07, 06:42 AM	I don't see anything saying you lose all class abilities if you no longer qualify for a PrC in there either. Zevox Its around somewhere. I remember finding it after thinking up a redemed Blackguard -> Paladin for double Cha save power... And getting told no by MWB. :) Here's a slightly indirect reference from the 3.5 FAQ that I could find quickly: Can a soulmeld or its chakra bind allow you to meet the prerequisites for a feat or the requirements for a prestige class? Yes, but you only gain the benefits of the feat or prestige class as long as you continue to meet its requirements. If you unshape the meld or change the chakra bind, you would lose the feat or prestige class benefits and wouldn’t be able to advance further in the prestige class. Edit: However, I don't believe the template rules say anything explicitly about subtypes, and thus any templated creature should retain its subtype since: Reading A Template A template’s description provides a set of instructions for altering an existing creature, known as the base creature. The changes that a template might cause to each line of a creature’s statistics block are discussed below. Generally, if a template does not cause a change to a certain statistic, that entry is missing from the template description. For clarity, the entry for a statistic or attribute that is not changed is sometimes given as "Same as the base creature." Size and Type Templates often change a creature’s type, and may change the creature’s size. If a template changes the base creature’s type, the creature also acquires the augmented subtype unless the template description indicates otherwise. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature’s original type. Unless a template indicates otherwise, the new creature has the traits of the new type but the features of the original type. and for a Lich, it says nothing about subtype so a Human going Lich becomes Undead (Augmented Humanoid, Human) Size and Type The creature’s type changes to undead. Do not recalculate base attack bonus, saves, or skill points. Size is unchanged. For example, the Skeleton (and Zombie) templates do have entries pertaining to subtypes (so its an intentional omission in the case of the Lich, meaning subtype should remain). Size and Type The creature’s type changes to undead. It retains any subtype except for alignment subtypes (such as good) and subtypes that indicate kind. It does not gain the augmented subtype. It uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.
Hirumajoe 05-19-07, 07:10 AM	In regards to the flurry touch attack arguments: I thought Sauro had been advocating you can't flurry touch attacks, the type where you roll to hit a touch AC, but you are allowed to flurry normal attacks which roll against the full AC and which happen to also to deliver a spell. The spell does go off on the first successful hit. I.e. if your opponent has a normal AC of 20 and a touch AC 15, and you have 1 attack around, but 2 with flurry, you can make 1 attack around with your touch spell vs AC 15 (dealing no damage and just triggering the spell), or you could make 2 attacks a round at -2 to hit against AC 20 (dealing damage and triggering the spell). I thought TheMagister wanted the ability to flurry touch attacks in the sense that you roll only against the touch AC. Example: Same as above case but now you make 2 attacks a round at -2 to hit against AC 15, deal no damage and trigger the spell. What I've never understood is why you can't just flurry grapple and/or trip attacks and discharge it "unintentionally" and avoid the whole question?
Rauul 05-19-07, 08:37 AM	Not to laugh to hard... But the ruler of ThayMount.. and one of the Red Wizards of Thay Circle of Eight (one leader per school of magic) and Leader of their Necromancer School is Szass Tam who by WoTC 3.5 is Wizard (necromancer) 15/ Red wizard 10 Lich ArchEnemy of Mystra's choosen... Now since we don't use none core Books (unless you count using Blacklight from Spell compendium) this can't be Submitted into the Arguement, except that Red Wizard Prestige class is in Core.. hence opening the door for this arguement.. Shrug.. Zevox knows more about the 3.5 forgotten realms than I do..
Usurpator 05-19-07, 09:35 AM	I thought Sauro had been advocating you can't flurry touch attacks, the type where you roll to hit a touch AC, but you are allowed to flurry normal attacks which roll against the full AC and which happen to also to deliver a spell. The spell does go off on the first successful hit. I would be content if that would be the ruling. I can easily imagine that trying just to touch someone requires other martial skills than performing a regular unarmed (martial arts) strike for damage. Still, any touch (flurried or not) should trigger a touch spell. Which means if you flurry to start a grapple, you still discharge your touch spell on the first contact unless you forbid flurries to start a grapple.
hogarth 05-19-07, 09:41 AM	What I've never understood is why you can't just flurry grapple and/or trip attacks and discharge it "unintentionally" and avoid the whole question? This is the opinion I finally settled on as well. You can't just flurry a "generic" touch attack, but you can flurry grab and trip attempts (because the FAQ says so) and accidentally discharge the spell. Of course, those things provoke attacks of opportunity if you don't have the appropriate feat, so there's a trade-off.
NiQil 05-19-07, 10:09 AM	For your latest critiquing pleasure, I give you Blitzkrieg. Feedback is appreciated (I know that I still have to stat out his psicrystal, Bop).
hogarth 05-19-07, 10:18 AM	For your latest critiquing pleasure, I give you Blitzkrieg. Feedback is appreciated (I know that I still have to stat out his psicrystal, Bop). Hmm...needs more horses. :D
McJarvis 05-19-07, 11:06 AM	Hmm...needs more horses. :D Don't forget the expendables!
NiQil 05-19-07, 11:10 AM	And here I thought I might get some actual feedback about the character. Silly me.
Abyssal Stalker 05-19-07, 11:14 AM	Blitzkrieg Bop :)
McJarvis 05-19-07, 11:17 AM	RE: Races and whatnot I'd be able to buy all of that. Half-fiends turn humans into Outsider(Human)'s, and that makes perfect thematic sense too. So the next discussion: Do you guys think half-fiend or lich is better for a caster? Seems to be better + stats & natural flight vs better DR, HD, and immunities. From a wizard perspective, the HD change is a d6 vs a d12. (+2 CON effectively upgrades your hd type in this setting) Though, with disrupting weapons being out there & all, I think I might want to stick with non-undead. -_-
Hirumajoe 05-19-07, 11:25 AM	For your latest critiquing pleasure, I give you Blitzkrieg. Feedback is appreciated (I know that I still have to stat out his psicrystal, Bop). Your order of taking feats seems a little odd. Why would you take Psicrystal Containment and Psionic Mediation before at least one feat that uses your psionic focus for something? As it stands, you taking feats to get yourself a guaranteed 15 concentration check. Also, I'd highly suggest personal mindblank as a late game power, since its essentially immunity to many, many will save or dies. Also, given the sheer number of psionic feats, you might want to consider Psionic Body. You've got a plus instead of - sign on the racial penalty to strength (altough 10 is the right overall strength). You might also want to note the Xeph's Burst ability.
Rauul 05-19-07, 11:37 AM	And here I thought I might get some actual feedback about the character. Silly me. Well i like him... a little low on pps but he will grow up to be able to use all that deep crystal (2 pps each to charge)
Hirumajoe 05-19-07, 01:29 PM	I currently have a problem with regards to LOY, due to the shortage of districts (due to CEF's positioning with 3 Districts plus a 4th that they only have access to). That leaves 17 districts for the remaining 6 guilds. Normally, I'd just go with the flow and use politics or outright brute force to ensure LOY's needs are met. However, I can't remain as LOY's guildmaster indefinitely. I'm going to be disappearing for a few months starting in July as I finish up a thesis, move to California and get started in a new job. And LOY's future leadership (and existance) are uncertain after that. At this time, in order to pursue LOYs interests I'd to have to take some directly negative actions on another guild (at best taking away space from someone else so they are forced to fight someone else for "their" 3 districts to at worst directly fighting someone to ensure LOY has 3 districts) I don't want to arbitrarily hurt one guild and then simply disappear without any reprecussions to LOY. And if LOY is going to disappear anyways, I'm hard pressed to figure out why I'm continuing in the guild game (with all the paper work and politics and so forth) if no one really cares about it or its future. And the guild game isn't the same as the RP game, which I do see a point to (at least as much as I see in a typical table top game, which is the fun. :) ). Basically, I'd like some definiteness on what is giong to happen to LOY. Because it influences what I'm going to do, heavily. I don't want to be in the position of saying to someone you're going to lose, and no I don't care that it means I'm going to lose since LOY is already going to lose. Because thats just lame. On the other hand, if someone is going to inherit LOY, then I want to play to the best of my ability to ensure them a decent chance at winning.
Macbrea 05-19-07, 02:00 PM	Honestly, looking at the map.. if LOY collapsed and the surrounding guilds took advantage of the vacuum created by the collapse. Then it would be perfectly fine. This would put the guilds down to a decent workable number of guilds that each have a coherent reason to exist. LOY's need to have a gamemaster move it's plotline along prevents it from ever gaining a huge number of people wishing to join. That is assuming TAO takes Kaiko, War takes upper Merx, and PSI takes Gladius park. Leaving Luna March to TLT and Plains of Naestitya to EHTC. Land wise I don't think it would hurt anything for LOY to collapse. And lack of membership is it's biggest problem.
SauroGrenom 05-19-07, 02:34 PM	For your latest critiquing pleasure, I give you Blitzkrieg. Feedback is appreciated (I know that I still have to stat out his psicrystal, Bop). Your grapple check is wrong. Nice single class psiwarrior build. Very feat intensive with both ranged and melee weapon feat strings. Against a full melee build, you probably get owned. Against a full ranged build, you'll probably get owned. Against Gish characters you will probably shine. Until you get Freedom of Movement, you will be in trouble with grappling. Your feat choices leave you with a dry spell between ECL3 to 6. You could rearrange those feats, so that your psionic focus is useful before ECL6. If you can live with less feats and focus on either melee or ranged, I'd suggest ranger 1/psion into slayer. That gives you way more pp, more versatile powers, access to ranger wands, and full BAB progression.
NiQil 05-19-07, 02:54 PM	Your grapple check is wrong. Nice single class psiwarrior build. Very feat intensive with both ranged and melee weapon feat strings. Against a full melee build, you probably get owned. Against a full ranged build, you'll probably get owned. Against Gish characters you will probably shine. Until you get Freedom of Movement, you will be in trouble with grappling. Your feat choices leave you with a dry spell between ECL3 to 6. You could rearrange those feats, so that your psionic focus is useful before ECL6. If you can live with less feats and focus on either melee or ranged, I'd suggest ranger 1/psion into slayer. That gives you way more pp, more versatile powers, access to ranger wands, and full BAB progression. Well, this is another attempt at an alpha strike warrior build. I'm still kinda debating on the feat order. On the one hand, when I finally take the psionic shot and psionic weapon feats, I will have 2 focuses that can both be recharged as move actions from the get go. But until then, it's a pretty vanilla build, with really only the powers and the ability to pump damage into the deep crystal as it's 'tricks'. But once I start using the focus, and then both focuses together (with the additions of Fell Shot and Deep Impact), he will be dealing a good chunk of damage with a little buffing. With the bow, for instance, he will have 1d8 + 2d6 deep crystal + 2d6 psionic shot + 4d6 dissolving weapon + prevenom weapon for 1d8+8d6 damage plus anything else I have added, equipment wise by that time (enchantments and such), and it will be resolved as a ranged touch attack, which means it has a fairly good chance of connecting. As for grappling, that is what the deep crystal spiked gauntlet is for....same principle. I tried to pick all of my powers so that those that add to damage can be added to either a melee weapon or an arrow, and that is the reason I have both the melee and ranged psionic trees....dealing 1d4 + 8d6 damage in a grapple as a touch attack is gonna hurt...I don't care who ya are. On the flip side, I have the option of moving psionic shot down and bumping the acquisition of the psicrystal backwards in the progression...I can't bump psionic weapon back because I don't meet the Str prereq yet...that's why it is where it is. The bump at Lvl 4 and Gauntlets of Ogre Power should be easily attainable by then. I'm also toying with the idea of bumping him to a level 5 or 6 build to start, and avoid the lower levels, which I am sure will be tragic.
templer10 05-19-07, 02:58 PM	I'm also toying with the idea of bumping him to a level 5 or 6 build to start, and avoid the lower levels, which I am sure will be tragic. hey - free XP for lower ECL chars is never bad - think of it as doing a public service :D but seriosly you should think about starting at higher level or switch the feats around some. the very minimum i think is getting psionic shot at level 3 since ther really isnt a point of having 2 focuse's at level 3 if you cant actually use them for anything. also - you might want to think down the line to get Expanded Knowledge (share pain) which in my opinion is pretty much a must for anyone with a psi crystal (almost double your HP and stay for at least 2 fights at ECL 7+).
NiQil 05-19-07, 03:06 PM	Alright...here is Blitzkrieg, version 2.0. I'll add him here for ease of viewing. Blitzkrieg Type: Humanoid Gender: Male Race: Xeph Size: Medium Height: 5'5" Weight: 150 lbs Age: 21 Alignment: Chaotic Neutral Classes: Psychic Warrior 3 Experience: 3,200/6,000 Attributes STR 10 (+0) [04 pts] [12 Base - 2 Racial] DEX 18 (+4) [10 pts] [16 Base + 2 Racial] CON 14 (+2) [06 pts] INT 14 (+2) [06 pts] WIS 16 (+3) [10 pts] CHA 08 (-1) [00 pts] Miscellaneous Statistics Hit Points: 23 [3 HD] [8 Psy + (4.5 Psy x 2) + (2 Con x 3)] Armor Class (Normal): 19 [10 Base + 4 Dex + 4 Armor + 1 Shield] Armor Class (Touch): 14 [10 Base + 4 Dex] Armor Class (Flat-Footed): 15 [10 Base + 4 Armor + 1 Shield] Initiative: +4 [4 Dex] Base Attack Bonus: +2 [2 Psy] Grapple: +2 [2 BAB + 0 Str] Speed: 30 ft [30 Base] Weight Carried: 33.50 lbs, Light encumbrance [0-33 (Light), 34-66 (Medium), 67-100 (Heavy)] Saves Fortitude: +5 [+1 racial bonus vs spells, powers, spell-like and power-like effects] [3 Psy + 2 Con] Reflex: +5 [+1 racial bonus vs spells, powers, spell-like and power-like effects] [1 Psy + 4 Dex] Will: +4 [+1 racial bonus vs spells, powers, spell-like and power-like effects] [1 Psy + 3 Wis] Melee Attacks Deep Crystal Rapier: +7, 1d6 (19-20/x2), Piercing [2 BAB + 4 Dex + 1 Enhancement] Deep Crystal Spiked Gauntlet: +7, 1d4 (x2), Piercing [2 BAB + 4 Dex + 1 Enhancement] Ranged Attacks Deep Crystal Composite Longbow: +7, 1d8 (x3), Piercing, Range 110 ft [-1 damage if using silver arrows] [2 BAB + 4 Dex + 1 Enhancement] Combat Abilities Burst (3/day): +10 ft competence bonus to speed for 3 rounds Powers Prepared Level 1 [DC 14]: Biofeedback, Metaphysical Weapon, Precognition (Defensive), Precognition (Offensive), Prescience (Offensive), Prevenom Weapon, Vigor Level 2 [DC 15]: Animal Affinity, Body Purification, Concealing Amorpha, Dissolving Weapon, Hustle Level 3 [DC 16]: Empathic Feedback Level 4 [DC 17]: Energy Adaptation, Freedom of Movement <Psionic>, Truevenom Weapon, Weapon of Energy Level 5 [DC 18]: Oak Body Level 6 [DC 19]: Dispelling Buffer, Form of Doom Power Points Available Per Fight: 2/3/3 [8 Total Power Points / 3, rounded up] Total Power Points: 8 [3 Psy + 4 Wis + 1 Racial] Manifester Level: 3 Feats Lvl 1: Point Blank Shot Psy 1: Psionic Shot Psy 2: Weapon Finesse Lvl 3: Psicrystal Affinity (Single-minded) Psy 5: Psionic Meditation Lvl 6: Psionic Weapon Psy 8: Greater Psionic Shot Lvl 9: Greater Psionic Weapon Psy 11: Psicrystal Containment Lvl 12: Fell Shot Psy 14: Deep Impact Lvl 15: Iron Will Psy 17: Improved Psicrystal (Resolved) Lvl 18: Improved Critical (Longbow) Psy 20: Improved Critical (Rapier) Skills Balance: +4 [0 Ranks (0 Psy) + 4 Dex] Climb: +0 [0 Ranks (0 Psy) + 0 Str] Concentration: +11 [6 Ranks (6 Psy) + 2 Con + 3 Unnamed] Craft (Armorsmithing): +10 [6 Ranks (6 Psy) + 2 Int + 2 Circumstance] Craft (Bowmaking): +10 [6 Ranks (6 Psy) + 2 Int + 2 Circumstance] Craft (Wepaonsmithing): +10 [6 Ranks (6 Psy) + 2 Int + 2 Circumstance] Hide: +4 [0 Ranks (0 Psy) + 4 Dex] Jump: +0 [0 Ranks (0 Psy) + 0 Str] Listen: +3 [+2 Feat bonus with psicrystal near] [0 Ranks (0 Psy) + 3 Wis] Move Silently: +4 [0 Ranks (0 Psy) + 4 Dex] Spot: +3 [+2 Feat bonus with psicrystal near] [0 Ranks (0 Psy) + 3 Wis] Languages: Common, Xeph, Draconic and Elven [2 Racial + 2 Int] Total Skill Points: 24 [24 Psy] Armor Check Penalty: 0 [0 Armor + 0 Shield] General Tactics Always make use of relevant skills/abilities for given situations. Always stow equipment; never drop it. Never surrender. Use any and all equipment available whenever necessary. Prefight Actions Gain psionic focus & store in Bop Gain psionic focus Store Bop on person Equipment Carried 020 Alchemical Silver Arrows [03.00 lbs] 060 Arrows [09.00 lbs] 020 Cold Iron Arrows [03.00 lbs] 001 Deep Crystal Composite Longbow [03.00 lbs] 001 Deep Crystal Rapier [02.00 lbs] 001 Deep Crystal Spiked Gauntlet [01.00 lbs] 001 Mithral Buckler [02.50 lbs] 001 Mithral Chain Shirt [10.00 lbs] Expendables Unused None Equipment Stored 080 Alchemical Silver Arrows [12.00 lbs] 440 Arrows [66.00 lbs] 080 Cold Iron Arrows [12.00 lbs] 001 Masterwork Artisan's Tools (Armorsmithing) [05.00 lbs] 001 Masterwork Artisan's Tools (Bowmaking) [05.00 lbs] 001 Masterwork Artisan's Tools (Weaponsmithing) [05.00 lbs] Arena Results Record: 00 W/00 L xxxxx vs xxxxxxxxxx (xxx) [0,000.00 XP] [0,000.00 gp] Allies Type: Construct Gender: N/A Race: Psicrystal Size: Diminutive Alignment: Neutral Attributes STR -- (--) DEX -- (--) CON -- (--) INT 07 (-2) WIS 10 (+0) CHA 10 (+0) Miscellaneous Statistics Hit Points: 11 [0 HD] Armor Class (Normal): 15 [10 Base + 4 Size + 1 Natural] Armor Class (Touch): 14 [10 Base + 4 Size] Armor Class (Flat-Footed): 15 [10 Base + 4 Size + 1 Natural] Hardness: 8 [8 Construct] Initiative: +2 [2 Dex] Base Attack Bonus: +0 [0 Psi] Grapple: -17 [0 BAB - 17 Size] Speed: N/A [N/A] Weight Carried: N/A [N/A] Saves Fortitude: +5 [3 Psy + 2 Con] Reflex: +5 [1 Psy + 4 Dex] Will: +4 [1 Psy + 3 Wis] Melee Attacks None Combat Abilities None Feats None Skills Balance: +4 [0 Ranks (0 Psy) + - Dex] Climb: +0 [0 Ranks (0 Psy) + - Str] Concentration: +6 [6 Ranks (6 Psy) + - Con] Craft (Armorsmithing): +4 [6 Ranks (6 Psy) - 2 Int] Craft (Bowmaking): +4 [6 Ranks (6 Psy) - 2 Int] Craft (Wepaonsmithing): +4 [6 Ranks (6 Psy) - 2 Int] Hide: +4 [0 Ranks (0 Psy) + - Dex] Jump: +0 [0 Ranks (0 Psy) + - Str] Listen: +4 [4 Ranks (4 Psi) + 0 Wis] Move Silently: +4 [4 Ranks (4 Psi) + - Dex] Search: +2 [4 Ranks (4 Psi) - 2 Int] Spot: +4 [4 Ranks (4 Psi) + 0 Wis] Languages: Common [1 Psi] Total Skill Points: 16 [16 Psi] Armor Check Penalty: 0 [0 Armor + 0 Shield] General Tactics Stay in master's pocket Equipment Carried None Miscellaneous Alertness (master) Improved Evasion Personality (Single-minded) Self-Propulsion Share Powers Sighted Telepathic Link Deliver Touch Powers Low-light vision Darkvision 60 ft Immunity to all mind-affecting effects Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease , death effects, and necromancy effects Cannot heal damage on their own Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, or energy drain Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects, or is harmless) Miscellaneous Simple Weapons Martial Weapons Light Armor Medium Armor Heavy Armor Shields Powers/Power Points Bonus Feats Darkvision 60 ft 100 Alchemical Silver ArrowsC (Creation) [0,102.50 gp] 500 ArrowsC (Creation) [0,012.50 gp] 100 Cold Iron ArrowsC (Creation) [0,005.00 gp] 001 Deep Crystal Composite LongbowC (Creation) [0,550.00 gp] 001 Deep Crystal RapierC (Creation) [0,510.00 gp] 001 Deep Crystal Spiked GauntletC (Creation) [0,502.50 gp] 001 Masterwork Artisan's Tools (Armorsmithing) [0,055.00 gp] 001 Masterwork Artisan's Tools (Bowmaking) [0,055.00 gp] 001 Masterwork Artisan's Tools (Weaponsmithing) [0,055.00 gp] 001 Mithral BucklerC (Creation) [0,507.50 gp] 001 Mithral Chain ShirtC (Creation) [0,550.00 gp] ----- Starting: 3,000.00 gp Battles: 0.00 gp Sales: + 0.00 gp --------------- Total Earned: 3,000.00 gp Purchases: - 2,905.00 gp --------------- Total Left: 95.00 gp ----- Time Between Fights: N/A Prebuffs/Ongoing Effects: xxxxx (time remaining), xxxxx (time remaining) Items Used: xxxxx, xxxxx Spells/Power Points Used: xxxxx x/day Abilities Used: xxxxx Free Activity: xxxxx Time Between Fights: ? hrs Prebuffs/Ongoing Effects: xxxxx (time remaining), xxxxx (time remaining) Items Used: xxxxx, xxxxx Spells/Power Points Used: xxxxx x/day Abilities Used: xxxxx Free Activity: xxxxx Time Between Fights: ? hrs Prebuffs/Ongoing Effects: xxxxx (time remaining), xxxxx (time remaining) Items Used: xxxxx, xxxxx Spells/Power Points Used: xxxxx x/day Abilities Used: xxxxx Free Activity: xxxxx
NiQil 05-19-07, 03:10 PM	hey - free XP for lower ECL chars is never bad - think of it as doing a public service :D but seriosly you should think about starting at higher level or switch the feats around some. the very minimum i think is getting psionic shot at level 3 since ther really isnt a point of having 2 focuse's at level 3 if you cant actually use them for anything. also - you might want to think down the line to get Expanded Knowledge (share pain) which in my opinion is pretty much a must for anyone with a psi crystal (almost double your HP and stay for at least 2 fights at ECL 7+). I thought about the Share Pain thing....but the earliest that I would be willing to drop a feat out of my progression is Level 15, which is kinda late in the game to pick it up. I still may, but it's not an immediate concern.
MindWandererB 05-19-07, 03:25 PM	Regarding PrC's: I don't own the 3.5 DMG, but in the 3.0 DMG, the relevant info in in the section on creating prestige classes, immediately before the Arcane Archer. This section isn't in the SRD at all. Should a character find herself in a position (changed alignment, lost levels, and so on) where she no longer meets the requirements of a prestige class, she loses all special abilities (but not HD, base attack bonus, or base save bonus) gained from levels of the prestige class. Regarding LOY: Unfortunately, I have no way of knowing at this time whether another guildmaster will step up to fill the role. I'm guessing not; the only other members are also guildmasters of other guilds (and, oddly, Guildlords and the former Guildlords). Not even Cat joined his precious creation. Grr. If LOY does collapse, to make things equitable, three districts would become uninhabitable. Currently, High Traversam and Chanadar Forest are both out of the picture, so they'd be easy to zap. Then WAR can take Upper Merx, and PSI can keep Gladius Park. This leaves TAO with two districts to choose from (Kailo and Luna Marsh) and TLT with two (Merisia and Luna Marsh). I'd recommend wiping out Luna Marsh, leaving TAO with Kailo and TLT with Merisia. This has two advantages: One, it keeps the map whole, without any strange holes that create oddness when it comes to moving troops. Two, it makes the three eliminated areas contiguous, which would be easy to explain in RP (conquered by an external force, or by the Denthians, or struck by some calamity). (Since TLT is involved, I feel I should comment: it would probably be to TLT's advantage to keep Luna Marsh and eliminate Kailo. For one, it eliminates one of our "fronts," and for another, Luna Marsh has Increased Capacity. The Swampers can be eliminated without excessive difficulty. But I think the game as a whole would move more smoothly if we moved into Kailo instead.)
templer10 05-19-07, 03:25 PM	I thought about the Share Pain thing....but the earliest that I would be willing to drop a feat out of my progression is Level 15, which is kinda late in the game to pick it up. I still may, but it's not an immediate concern. at least get vigor earlier then unless you are planning on carrying a dorja of it along (ml2 maybe?)- you need some kind of "healing".
SauroGrenom 05-19-07, 03:25 PM	About LOY, I'm not the most impartial person for this discussion. Since PSI and LOY are looking at butting heads over Gladius Park, I'm in favor of any resolution that prevents that conflict from escalating. Looking at the Map, I can see the following: EHTC has no other option than to expand into the Plains. Also this is inhabited by a reasonably powerful PMG that is only friendly with EHTC. WAR "could" expand into Upper Merx or The Plains. But considering that the Plains is the only place for EHTC, that's a move into the path of a group with no other options. Thus it's an indirect declaration of war. PSI "could" expand into Gladius Park or The Plains. PSI has the same reasoning as WAR with respect to The Plains. So Gladius Park is the only option unless I want to start a war with EHTC. CEF has High Traversham uncontested. TAO has either Chandar Forest or Luna March. Both of these places are inhabited by mid to high level PMG's. TLT has either the Plains or Luna March. Both are inhabited by PMG's and both are attractive options for other guilds. Among these, the least contentious option is Luna March (assuming they move sooner rather than later). LOY has the most options. They border Gladius Park, Upper Merx and Luna March. So they could choose any of those. Right now Gladius Park has no PMG and is the most attractive. But since PSI has no other options, it's basically picking a fight with PSI to build there. If they build into Upper Merx, they are either forcing WAR into conflict with EHTC or they are picking a fight with WAR. If they build into Luna March, they are either picking a fight with TLT or forcing TLT into conflict with EHTC. So LOY is kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. No matter what they do, LOY is going to force military conflict between the guilds earlier. If LOY disappears the problem goes away (sort of) for a while at least. If LOY remains, then the guild game is going to get interesting really soon as PSI and LOY ramp up into an arms race for control of Gladius Park. So like Hirumajoe, I need to know what's going to happen before I can decide what to do next with PSI. If LOY is going to dissolve (not a bad idea), then we should decide on it soon. Cheers, Sauro
NiQil 05-19-07, 03:32 PM	at least get vigor earlier then unless you are planning on carrying a dorja of it along (ml2 maybe?)- you need some kind of "healing". None of my characters have healing. I was king of the CLW wand for awhile (ask Sauro about some of the archer duels he got stuck running), but now none of my characters carry healing.
SauroGrenom 05-19-07, 03:39 PM	Regarding LOY: Unfortunately, I have no way of knowing at this time whether another guildmaster will step up to fill the role. I'm guessing not; the only other members are also guildmasters of other guilds (and, oddly, Guildlords and the former Guildlords). Not even Cat joined his precious creation. Grr. If LOY does collapse, to make things equitable, three districts would become uninhabitable. Currently, High Traversam and Chanadar Forest are both out of the picture, so they'd be easy to zap. Then WAR can take Upper Merx, and PSI can keep Gladius Park. This leaves TAO with two districts to choose from (Kailo and Luna Marsh) and TLT with two (Merisia and Luna Marsh). I'd recommend wiping out Luna Marsh, leaving TAO with Kailo and TLT with Merisia. This has two advantages: One, it keeps the map whole, without any strange holes that create oddness when it comes to moving troops. Two, it makes the three eliminated areas contiguous, which would be easy to explain in RP (conquered by an external force, or by the Denthians, or struck by some calamity). (Since TLT is involved, I feel I should comment: it would probably be to TLT's advantage to keep Luna Marsh and eliminate Kailo. For one, it eliminates one of our "fronts," and for another, Luna Marsh has Increased Capacity. The Swampers can be eliminated without excessive difficulty. But I think the game as a whole would move more smoothly if we moved into Kailo instead.)Looking at the map, the best option in my opinion is as follows: 1)Scratch High Traversham, Chandar Forest and Luna March. (decreases the number of PMG's and cuts out the districts that are not yet occupied and that have the most advantageous placements) 2) Move the boundary of Valhamya over to intersect with YurynWood. (This is necessary to prevent both Valhamya and Yurnwood from becoming ridiculously easy to defend)
Usurpator 05-19-07, 03:51 PM	For your latest critiquing pleasure, I give you Blitzkrieg. Feedback is appreciated (I know that I still have to stat out his psicrystal, Bop). Hp: ok Saves: ok AC: ok Movement: ok Melee attack: good Melee damage: poor Ranged attack: good Ranged damage: ok Skills: ok Spells/powers: poor Feats/abilities: poor My first instinct says that it is a decent archer, but lacks the ability to dictate a ranged duel (no good speed nor good stealth or powers that enable such). It is reasonable melee character, but lacks the punch, defenses or special tricks to perservere against melee specialists. It saves make it not an easy kill for the spellcasters out there, but it is not a caster-killer either. It is somewhat vulnerable to grappling, deflect arrow grappling monks are probably its bane. As for my other level 3 characters: Solon will be able to stay at range against him, but it will be hard to be victorious in a straight archery duel. Odds are 50/50 Namara, being a grappling deflect arrow monk will dispatch him without too much trouble: 90/10 odds. Borodin will take some hits while closing, but then waste him in melee: 70/30 odds. It will be interesting to see how the character develops.
templer10 05-19-07, 05:29 PM	Stupid question - but since i dont feel like redoing a battle afterwards - someone with improved trip can attempt a trip with unarmed strike or a tripping weapon - correct? what about other weapons? (greatsword for example).
Zevox 05-19-07, 05:30 PM	Stupid question - but since i dont feel like redoing a battle afterwards - someone with improved trip can attempt a trip with unarmed strike or a tripping weapon - correct? what about other weapons? (greatsword for example). With an unarmed strike or trip weapon, yes. Not non-trip weapons. ...since its obvious you're referring to Arden, how he does that is he trips unarmed and uses his greatsword on the follow-up (taking your hand off a weapon or putting it back on is a free action, so this is doable). And theres no AoO for this since he has Improved Trip. Zevox
templer10 05-19-07, 05:32 PM	With an unarmed strike or trip weapon, yes. Not non-trip weapons. ...since its obvious you're referring to Arden, how he does that is he trips unarmed and uses his greatsword on the follow-up (taking your hand off a weapon or putting it back on is a free action, so this is doable). And theres no AoO for this since he has Improved Trip. Zevox then he should have mentioned it - mutter mutter mutter - also i just noticed durin has knockdown- double mutter mutter- peeps who dont mention these kind of things....
Zevox 05-19-07, 05:37 PM	then he should have mentioned it - mutter mutter mutter - also i just noticed durin has knockdown- double mutter mutter- peeps who dont mention these kind of things.... *shrugs* It seemed a bit obvious to me. The rule about putting hands on weapons is an ancient one around here - been around longer than I have - so I'm not used to having to point out things like that. Zevox
TheMagister 05-19-07, 06:55 PM	Alright...here is Blitzkrieg, version 2.0. I'll add him here for ease of viewing. Blitzkrieg Type: Humanoid Gender: Male Race: Xeph Size: Medium Height: 5'5" Weight: 150 lbs Age: 21 Alignment: Chaotic Neutral Classes: Psychic Warrior 3 Experience: 3,200/6,000 Attributes STR 10 (+0) [04 pts] [12 Base - 2 Racial] DEX 18 (+4) [10 pts] [16 Base + 2 Racial] CON 14 (+2) [06 pts] INT 14 (+2) [06 pts] WIS 16 (+3) [10 pts] CHA 08 (-1) [00 pts] Miscellaneous Statistics Hit Points: 23 [3 HD] [8 Psy + (4.5 Psy x 2) + (2 Con x 3)] Armor Class (Normal): 19 [10 Base + 4 Dex + 4 Armor + 1 Shield] Armor Class (Touch): 14 [10 Base + 4 Dex] Armor Class (Flat-Footed): 15 [10 Base + 4 Armor + 1 Shield] Initiative: +4 [4 Dex] Base Attack Bonus: +2 [2 Psy] Grapple: +2 [2 BAB + 0 Str] Speed: 30 ft [30 Base] Weight Carried: 33.50 lbs, Light encumbrance [0-33 (Light), 34-66 (Medium), 67-100 (Heavy)] Saves Fortitude: +5 [+1 racial bonus vs spells, powers, spell-like and power-like effects] [3 Psy + 2 Con] Reflex: +5 [+1 racial bonus vs spells, powers, spell-like and power-like effects] [1 Psy + 4 Dex] Will: +4 [+1 racial bonus vs spells, powers, spell-like and power-like effects] [1 Psy + 3 Wis] Melee Attacks Deep Crystal Rapier: +7, 1d6 (19-20/x2), Piercing [2 BAB + 4 Dex + 1 Enhancement] Deep Crystal Spiked Gauntlet: +7, 1d4 (x2), Piercing [2 BAB + 4 Dex + 1 Enhancement] Ranged Attacks Deep Crystal Composite Longbow: +7, 1d8 (x3), Piercing, Range 110 ft [-1 damage if using silver arrows] [2 BAB + 4 Dex + 1 Enhancement] Combat Abilities Burst (3/day): +10 ft competence bonus to speed for 3 rounds Powers Prepared Level 1 [DC 14]: Biofeedback, Metaphysical Weapon, Precognition (Defensive), Precognition (Offensive), Prescience (Offensive), Prevenom Weapon, Vigor Level 2 [DC 15]: Animal Affinity, Body Purification, Concealing Amorpha, Dissolving Weapon, Hustle Level 3 [DC 16]: Empathic Feedback Level 4 [DC 17]: Energy Adaptation, Freedom of Movement <Psionic>, Truevenom Weapon, Weapon of Energy Level 5 [DC 18]: Oak Body Level 6 [DC 19]: Dispelling Buffer, Form of Doom Power Points Available Per Fight: 2/3/3 [8 Total Power Points / 3, rounded up] Total Power Points: 8 [3 Psy + 4 Wis + 1 Racial] Manifester Level: 3 Feats Lvl 1: Point Blank Shot Psy 1: Psionic Shot Psy 2: Weapon Finesse Lvl 3: Psicrystal Affinity (Single-minded) Psy 5: Psionic Meditation Lvl 6: Psionic Weapon Psy 8: Greater Psionic Shot Lvl 9: Greater Psionic Weapon Psy 11: Psicrystal Containment Lvl 12: Fell Shot Psy 14: Deep Impact Lvl 15: Iron Will Psy 17: Improved Psicrystal (Resolved) Lvl 18: Improved Critical (Longbow) Psy 20: Improved Critical (Rapier) Skills Balance: +4 [0 Ranks (0 Psy) + 4 Dex] Climb: +0 [0 Ranks (0 Psy) + 0 Str] Concentration: +11 [6 Ranks (6 Psy) + 2 Con + 3 Unnamed] Craft (Armorsmithing): +10 [6 Ranks (6 Psy) + 2 Int + 2 Circumstance] Craft (Bowmaking): +10 [6 Ranks (6 Psy) + 2 Int + 2 Circumstance] Craft (Wepaonsmithing): +10 [6 Ranks (6 Psy) + 2 Int + 2 Circumstance] Hide: +4 [0 Ranks (0 Psy) + 4 Dex] Jump: +0 [0 Ranks (0 Psy) + 0 Str] Listen: +3 [+2 Feat bonus with psicrystal near] [0 Ranks (0 Psy) + 3 Wis] Move Silently: +4 [0 Ranks (0 Psy) + 4 Dex] Spot: +3 [+2 Feat bonus with psicrystal near] [0 Ranks (0 Psy) + 3 Wis] Languages: Common, Xeph, Draconic and Elven [2 Racial + 2 Int] Total Skill Points: 24 [24 Psy] Armor Check Penalty: 0 [0 Armor + 0 Shield] General Tactics Always make use of relevant skills/abilities for given situations. Always stow equipment; never drop it. Never surrender. Use any and all equipment available whenever necessary. Prefight Actions Gain psionic focus & store in Bop Gain psionic focus Store Bop on person Equipment Carried 020 Alchemical Silver Arrows [03.00 lbs] 060 Arrows [09.00 lbs] 020 Cold Iron Arrows [03.00 lbs] 001 Deep Crystal Composite Longbow [03.00 lbs] 001 Deep Crystal Rapier [02.00 lbs] 001 Deep Crystal Spiked Gauntlet [01.00 lbs] 001 Mithral Buckler [02.50 lbs] 001 Mithral Chain Shirt [10.00 lbs] Expendables Unused None Equipment Stored 080 Alchemical Silver Arrows [12.00 lbs] 440 Arrows [66.00 lbs] 080 Cold Iron Arrows [12.00 lbs] 001 Masterwork Artisan's Tools (Armorsmithing) [05.00 lbs] 001 Masterwork Artisan's Tools (Bowmaking) [05.00 lbs] 001 Masterwork Artisan's Tools (Weaponsmithing) [05.00 lbs] Arena Results Record: 00 W/00 L xxxxx vs xxxxxxxxxx (xxx) [0,000.00 XP] [0,000.00 gp] Allies Type: Construct Gender: N/A Race: Psicrystal Size: Diminutive Alignment: Neutral Attributes STR -- (--) DEX -- (--) CON -- (--) INT 07 (-2) WIS 10 (+0) CHA 10 (+0) Miscellaneous Statistics Hit Points: 11 [0 HD] Armor Class (Normal): 15 [10 Base + 4 Size + 1 Natural] Armor Class (Touch): 14 [10 Base + 4 Size] Armor Class (Flat-Footed): 15 [10 Base + 4 Size + 1 Natural] Hardness: 8 [8 Construct] Initiative: +2 [2 Dex] Base Attack Bonus: +0 [0 Psi] Grapple: -17 [0 BAB - 17 Size] Speed: N/A [N/A] Weight Carried: N/A [N/A] Saves Fortitude: +5 [3 Psy + 2 Con] Reflex: +5 [1 Psy + 4 Dex] Will: +4 [1 Psy + 3 Wis] Melee Attacks None Combat Abilities None Feats None Skills Balance: +4 [0 Ranks (0 Psy) + - Dex] Climb: +0 [0 Ranks (0 Psy) + - Str] Concentration: +6 [6 Ranks (6 Psy) + - Con] Craft (Armorsmithing): +4 [6 Ranks (6 Psy) - 2 Int] Craft (Bowmaking): +4 [6 Ranks (6 Psy) - 2 Int] Craft (Wepaonsmithing): +4 [6 Ranks (6 Psy) - 2 Int] Hide: +4 [0 Ranks (0 Psy) + - Dex] Jump: +0 [0 Ranks (0 Psy) + - Str] Listen: +4 [4 Ranks (4 Psi) + 0 Wis] Move Silently: +4 [4 Ranks (4 Psi) + - Dex] Search: +2 [4 Ranks (4 Psi) - 2 Int] Spot: +4 [4 Ranks (4 Psi) + 0 Wis] Languages: Common [1 Psi] Total Skill Points: 16 [16 Psi] Armor Check Penalty: 0 [0 Armor + 0 Shield] General Tactics Stay in master's pocket Equipment Carried None Miscellaneous Alertness (master) Improved Evasion Personality (Single-minded) Self-Propulsion Share Powers Sighted Telepathic Link Deliver Touch Powers Low-light vision Darkvision 60 ft Immunity to all mind-affecting effects Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease , death effects, and necromancy effects Cannot heal damage on their own Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, or energy drain Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects, or is harmless) Miscellaneous Simple Weapons Martial Weapons Light Armor Medium Armor Heavy Armor Shields Powers/Power Points Bonus Feats Darkvision 60 ft 100 Alchemical Silver ArrowsC (Creation) [0,102.50 gp] 500 ArrowsC (Creation) [0,012.50 gp] 100 Cold Iron ArrowsC (Creation) [0,005.00 gp] 001 Deep Crystal Composite LongbowC (Creation) [0,550.00 gp] 001 Deep Crystal RapierC (Creation) [0,510.00 gp] 001 Deep Crystal Spiked GauntletC (Creation) [0,502.50 gp] 001 Masterwork Artisan's Tools (Armorsmithing) [0,055.00 gp] 001 Masterwork Artisan's Tools (Bowmaking) [0,055.00 gp] 001 Masterwork Artisan's Tools (Weaponsmithing) [0,055.00 gp] 001 Mithral BucklerC (Creation) [0,507.50 gp] 001 Mithral Chain ShirtC (Creation) [0,550.00 gp] ----- Starting: 3,000.00 gp Battles: 0.00 gp Sales: + 0.00 gp --------------- Total Earned: 3,000.00 gp Purchases: - 2,905.00 gp --------------- Total Left: 95.00 gp ----- Time Between Fights: N/A Prebuffs/Ongoing Effects: xxxxx (time remaining), xxxxx (time remaining) Items Used: xxxxx, xxxxx Spells/Power Points Used: xxxxx x/day Abilities Used: xxxxx Free Activity: xxxxx Time Between Fights: ? hrs Prebuffs/Ongoing Effects: xxxxx (time remaining), xxxxx (time remaining) Items Used: xxxxx, xxxxx Spells/Power Points Used: xxxxx x/day Abilities Used: xxxxx Free Activity: xxxxx Time Between Fights: ? hrs Prebuffs/Ongoing Effects: xxxxx (time remaining), xxxxx (time remaining) Items Used: xxxxx, xxxxx Spells/Power Points Used: xxxxx x/day Abilities Used: xxxxx Free Activity: xxxxx If you would take advice from a fellow touch attack aficionado: I'd find ways to move Deep Impact and Fell Shot up in your feat order. Most namely before Gr. Psionic Wpn and Gr. Psionic Shot. Dealing consistent damage is better than missing with that super-shot (in my experience). YMMV.
Salrantol 05-19-07, 07:03 PM	Certainly arcane casters can't use a divine spell scroll, but a wizard could use a CL 1 arcane scroll of Tasha's Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter....Since Tasha's Laughter is arcane, on the wizard spell list and the wizard has a high enough Int, he's eligible. There's no such thing as a "bard" scroll or a "ranger" scroll, just arcane and divine.Only one problem with that suggestion, there are no CL 1 arcane scrolls of Tasha's Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter. No arcane class that casts 1st level spells at level 1 has that spell as a level 1 spell. Bards don't get level 1 spells until level 2.
TheMagister 05-20-07, 01:03 AM	Least Ring of Spell Storing - As Minor Ring of Spell Storing except this ring only stores 1 spell level. Faint Evocation; CL 5th; Forge Ring, imbue with spell ability; 1,000 gp. OR Lesser Right of Spell Storing - As Minor Ring of Spell Storing except this ring only stores up to 2 levels of spells. Faint Evocation; CL 5th; Forge Ring, imbue with spell ability; 8,000 gp. Reasoning: The Minor Ring of Spell Storing can store a 3rd level spell. The table 7-33 in the DMG has three ways to handle that: 1) Bonus spell + Multiple Different Abilites (different levels of bonus spells can be chosen): (spell level squared x 1000gp) + (Multiply Higher Item cost by 2) or; 2) Command Word: spell level x caster level x 1800 gp or; 3) Continuous: spell level x caster level x 2000 Since the Minor Ring costs 18,000 gold, I didn't know how to reverse engineer it until I mixed and matched and weighed options. 1) Bonus Spell: (3x3x1000) * 2(Multiples) = 18,000 gp. 2) Command Word: (3x5x1800) = 27,000 3) [(3x5x2000) / 2 (duration clause)] * 1.5 (uncustomary slot -- mental stuff usually goes into a head slot) = 22500. It seems that #1 fits better. After all, what you've really got is a version of a PoP III that can "remember" any SLs between 1st and 3rd level. Seems easy enough. So a "least" one would be (1x1x1000) * 1(no multiples). A "lesser" on that stored 2 SLs would be (2x2x1000) * 2(Multiples) = 8000. That sounds about right. This would answer Rubicanti's issue. Get an Energy Subbed Produce Flame cast into a ring, and activate it as needed. TM
MindWandererB 05-20-07, 02:05 AM	This would answer Rubicanti's issue. Get an Energy Subbed Produce Flame cast into a ring, and activate it as needed. TMWouldn't solve your problem, my friend. See, Produce Flame doesn't have a Range of Touch, it has an Effect of Flame in your Palm. So it cannot be delivered with an unarmed strike like a touch spell; it's more like performing a trip attack with a weapon. I recommend Chill Touch instead.
Guildmaster (WAR) 05-20-07, 02:35 AM	Yep, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Can't have it both ways. Chill Touch is a good choice.
NiQil 05-20-07, 05:44 AM	Alright...after some more examination, I now give you Blitzkrieg v3.0 Blitzkrieg Type: Humanoid Gender: Male Race: Xeph Size: Medium Height: 5'5" Weight: 150 lbs Age: 21 Alignment: Chaotic Neutral Classes: Psychic Warrior 3 Experience: 3,200/6,000 Attributes STR 11 (+0) [05 pts] [13 Base - 2 Racial] DEX 18 (+4) [10 pts] [16 Base + 2 Racial] CON 13 (+1) [05 pts] INT 14 (+2) [06 pts] WIS 16 (+3) [10 pts] CHA 08 (-1) [00 pts] Miscellaneous Statistics Hit Points: 20 [3 HD] [8 Psy + (4.5 Psy x 2) + (1 Con x 3)] Armor Class (Normal): 19 [10 Base + 4 Dex + 4 Armor + 1 Shield] Armor Class (Touch): 14 [10 Base + 4 Dex] Armor Class (Flat-Footed): 15 [10 Base + 4 Armor + 1 Shield] Initiative: +4 [4 Dex] Base Attack Bonus: +2 [2 Psy] Grapple: +2 [2 BAB + 0 Str] Speed: 30 ft [30 Base] Weight Carried: 33.50 lbs, Light encumbrance [0-38 (Light), 39-76 (Medium), 77-115 (Heavy)] Saves Fortitude: +5 [+1 racial bonus vs spells, powers, spell-like and power-like effects] [3 Psy + 2 Con] Reflex: +5 [+1 racial bonus vs spells, powers, spell-like and power-like effects] [1 Psy + 4 Dex] Will: +4 [+1 racial bonus vs spells, powers, spell-like and power-like effects] [1 Psy + 3 Wis] Melee Attacks Deep Crystal Handaxe: +7, 1d6 (x3), Slashing [2 BAB + 4 Dex + 1 Enhancement] Deep Crystal Armor Spikes: +7, 1d6 (x2), Piercing [2 BAB + 4 Dex + 1 Enhancement] Ranged Attacks Deep Crystal Composite Longbow: +7, 1d8 (x3), Piercing, Range 110 ft [-1 damage if using silver arrows] [2 BAB + 4 Dex + 1 Enhancement] Combat Abilities Burst (3/day): +10 ft competence bonus to speed for 3 rounds Powers Prepared Level 1 [DC 14]: Biofeedback, Metaphysical Weapon, Precognition (Defensive), Precognition (Offensive), Prescience (Offensive), Prevenom Weapon, Vigor Level 2 [DC 15]: Animal Affinity, Body Purification, Concealing Amorpha, Dissolving Weapon, Hustle Level 3 [DC 16]: Empathic Feedback Level 4 [DC 17]: Energy Adaptation, Freedom of Movement <Psionic>, Truevenom Weapon, Weapon of Energy Level 5 [DC 18]: Oak Body Level 6 [DC 19]: Dispelling Buffer, Form of Doom Power Points Available Per Fight: 2/3/3 [8 Total Power Points / 3, rounded up] Total Power Points: 8 [3 Psy + 4 Wis + 1 Racial] Manifester Level: 3 Feats Lvl 1: Point Blank Shot Psy 1: Psionic Shot Psy 2: Weapon Finesse Lvl 3: Psicrystal Affinity (Single-minded) Psy 5: Psionic Meditation Lvl 6: Psionic Weapon Psy 8: Psicrystal Containment Lvl 9: Fell Shot Psy 11: Deep Impact Lvl 12: Greater Psionic Shot Psy 14: Greater Psionic Weapon Lvl 15: Iron Will Psy 17: Improved Psicrystal (Resolved) Lvl 18: Improved Critical (Longbow) Psy 20: Improved Critical (Rapier) Skills Balance: +4 [0 Ranks (0 Psy) + 4 Dex] Climb: +0 [0 Ranks (0 Psy) + 0 Str] Concentration: +10 [6 Ranks (6 Psy) + 1 Con + 3 Unnamed] Craft (Armorsmithing): +10 [6 Ranks (6 Psy) + 2 Int + 2 Circumstance] Craft (Bowmaking): +10 [6 Ranks (6 Psy) + 2 Int + 2 Circumstance] Craft (Weaponsmithing): +10 [6 Ranks (6 Psy) + 2 Int + 2 Circumstance] Hide: +4 [0 Ranks (0 Psy) + 4 Dex] Jump: +0 [0 Ranks (0 Psy) + 0 Str] Listen: +3 [+2 Feat bonus with psicrystal near] [0 Ranks (0 Psy) + 3 Wis] Move Silently: +4 [0 Ranks (0 Psy) + 4 Dex] Spot: +3 [+2 Feat bonus with psicrystal near] [0 Ranks (0 Psy) + 3 Wis] Languages: Common, Xeph, Draconic and Elven [2 Racial + 2 Int] Total Skill Points: 24 [24 Psy] Armor Check Penalty: 0 [0 Armor + 0 Shield] General Tactics Always make use of relevant skills/abilities for given situations. Always stow equipment; never drop it. Never surrender. Use any and all equipment available whenever necessary. Prefight Actions Gain psionic focus & store in Bop Gain psionic focus Store Bop on person Equipment Carried 020 Alchemical Silver Arrows [03.00 lbs] 060 Arrows [09.00 lbs] 020 Cold Iron Arrows [03.00 lbs] 001 Deep Crystal Composite Longbow [03.00 lbs] 001 Deep Crystal Handaxe [03.00 lbs] 001 Mithral Buckler [02.50 lbs] 001 Mithral Chain Shirt [10.00 lbs] Expendables Unused None Equipment Stored 080 Alchemical Silver Arrows [12.00 lbs] 440 Arrows [66.00 lbs] 080 Cold Iron Arrows [12.00 lbs] 001 Deep Crystal Armor Spikes [10.00 lbs] 001 Masterwork Artisan's Tools (Armorsmithing) [05.00 lbs] 001 Masterwork Artisan's Tools (Bowmaking) [05.00 lbs] 001 Masterwork Artisan's Tools (Weaponsmithing) [05.00 lbs] Arena Results Record: 00 W/00 L xxxxx vs xxxxxxxxxx (xxx) [0,000.00 XP] [0,000.00 gp] Allies Type: Construct Gender: N/A Race: Psicrystal Size: Diminutive Alignment: Neutral Attributes STR -- (--) DEX -- (--) CON -- (--) INT 07 (-2) WIS 10 (+0) CHA 10 (+0) Miscellaneous Statistics Hit Points: 11 [0 HD] Armor Class (Normal): 15 [10 Base + 4 Size + 1 Natural] Armor Class (Touch): 14 [10 Base + 4 Size] Armor Class (Flat-Footed): 15 [10 Base + 4 Size + 1 Natural] Hardness: 8 [8 Construct] Initiative: +2 [2 Dex] Base Attack Bonus: +0 [0 Psi] Grapple: -17 [0 BAB - 17 Size] Speed: N/A [N/A] Weight Carried: N/A [N/A] Saves Fortitude: +5 [3 Psy + 2 Con] Reflex: +5 [1 Psy + 4 Dex] Will: +4 [1 Psy + 3 Wis] Melee Attacks None Combat Abilities None Feats None Skills Balance: +4 [0 Ranks (0 Psy) + - Dex] Climb: +0 [0 Ranks (0 Psy) + - Str] Concentration: +6 [6 Ranks (6 Psy) + - Con] Craft (Armorsmithing): +4 [6 Ranks (6 Psy) - 2 Int] Craft (Bowmaking): +4 [6 Ranks (6 Psy) - 2 Int] Craft (Wepaonsmithing): +4 [6 Ranks (6 Psy) - 2 Int] Hide: +4 [0 Ranks (0 Psy) + - Dex] Jump: +0 [0 Ranks (0 Psy) + - Str] Listen: +4 [4 Ranks (4 Psi) + 0 Wis] Move Silently: +4 [4 Ranks (4 Psi) + - Dex] Search: +2 [4 Ranks (4 Psi) - 2 Int] Spot: +4 [4 Ranks (4 Psi) + 0 Wis] Languages: Common [1 Psi] Total Skill Points: 16 [16 Psi] Armor Check Penalty: 0 [0 Armor + 0 Shield] General Tactics Stay in master's pocket Equipment Carried None Miscellaneous Alertness (master) Improved Evasion Personality (Single-minded) Self-Propulsion Share Powers Sighted Telepathic Link Deliver Touch Powers Low-light vision Darkvision 60 ft Immunity to all mind-affecting effects Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease , death effects, and necromancy effects Cannot heal damage on their own Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, or energy drain Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects, or is harmless) Miscellaneous Simple Weapons Martial Weapons Light Armor Medium Armor Heavy Armor Shields Powers/Power Points Bonus Feats Darkvision 60 ft 100 Alchemical Silver ArrowsC (Creation) [0,102.50 gp] 500 ArrowsC (Creation) [0,012.50 gp] 100 Cold Iron ArrowsC (Creation) [0,005.00 gp] 001 Deep Crystal Composite LongbowC (Creation) [0,550.00 gp] 001 Deep Crystal Armor SpikesC (Creation) [0,525.00 gp] 001 Deep Crystal HandaxeC (Creation) [0,503.00 gp] 001 Masterwork Artisan's Tools (Armorsmithing) [0,055.00 gp] 001 Masterwork Artisan's Tools (Bowmaking) [0,055.00 gp] 001 Masterwork Artisan's Tools (Weaponsmithing) [0,055.00 gp] 001 Mithral BucklerC (Creation) [0,507.50 gp] 001 Mithral Chain ShirtC (Creation) [0,550.00 gp] ----- Starting: 3,000.00 gp Battles: 0.00 gp Sales: + 0.00 gp --------------- Total Earned: 3,000.00 gp Purchases: - 2,920.50 gp --------------- Total Left: 79.50 gp ----- Time Between Fights: N/A Prebuffs/Ongoing Effects: xxxxx (time remaining), xxxxx (time remaining) Items Used: xxxxx, xxxxx Spells/Power Points Used: xxxxx x/day Abilities Used: xxxxx Free Activity: xxxxx Time Between Fights: ? hrs Prebuffs/Ongoing Effects: xxxxx (time remaining), xxxxx (time remaining) Items Used: xxxxx, xxxxx Spells/Power Points Used: xxxxx x/day Abilities Used: xxxxx Free Activity: xxxxx Time Between Fights: ? hrs Prebuffs/Ongoing Effects: xxxxx (time remaining), xxxxx (time remaining) Items Used: xxxxx, xxxxx Spells/Power Points Used: xxxxx x/day Abilities Used: xxxxx Free Activity: xxxxx
Yitzi 05-20-07, 11:46 AM	Question: Does the 100XECL cap on loser experience come before or after the Political Career skill package?
Vathelokai 05-20-07, 12:13 PM	Question: Does the 100XECL cap on loser experience come before or after the Political Career skill package? My understanding is that it comes before. I.e. you get the 100xecl then add political career.
Vathelokai 05-20-07, 12:21 PM	Alright...after some more examination, I now give you Blitzkrieg v3.0 Prefight actions still has bop being psi-focused. Why store the armor spikes at home? Weight or something? I'd go with a short sword over the handaxe. Crits more often vs more damage on crits.... not sure how the math works out, but that's my personal preference. Looks good. I look forward to getting my butt kicked by him.
Vathelokai 05-20-07, 12:27 PM	Do failed guild assault fights get looser rewards like a monster fight, or no rewards like a failed quest?
Vathelokai 05-20-07, 12:35 PM	Wanted: Questlord(s) for Denshi and Auburn. Probably both out of cycle MQ, but open to longer quests if someone has a fun idea. Also potential for Guild quests (official guild actions or just RP). Need to activate them both soon or they will be kicked from their guilds. Please send PM if interested.
Abyssal Stalker 05-20-07, 01:28 PM	Do failed guild assault fights get looser rewards like a monster fight, or no rewards like a failed quest? No rewards, I think.
Sjiggie 05-20-07, 01:54 PM	I believed you don't get rewards on any quest, MQ, Guild Mission or Guild MQ if you don't succeed.
Salrantol 05-20-07, 02:07 PM	I'd go with a short sword over the handaxe. Crits more often vs more damage on crits.... not sure how the math works out, but that's my personal preference.Actually, it's identical, average damage-wise, in nearly all situations. 19-20/x2 gives you a 10% chance of dealing double damage or .1 x (+1 x (Weapon Damage)) = +.1 WD. 20/x3 gives you a 5% chance of dealing triple damage or .05 x (+2 x (Weapon Damage))= +.1 WD. The only exception is if you can only hit the target on a 20, in which case the 19-20/x2 only gives you a 5% chance of dealing double damage or .05 x (+1WD) = +.05 WD, while the 20/x3 still gives the same chance of triple damage. So, in a small minority of cases, the 20/x3 is superior and in all other cases (barring something triggering on criticals such as flaming burst weapons) it is equal, the 20/x3 is the better choice.
Yitzi 05-20-07, 02:30 PM	Or if the enemy's hit points are low enough that a X3 crit will cause some damage points to be wasted, or if the enemy has DR, some of which is wasted on most noncriticals, or...
Khaim 05-20-07, 04:52 PM	Or if the enemy's hit points are low enough that a X3 crit will cause some damage points to be wasted, or if the enemy has DR, some of which is wasted on most noncriticals, or... This is a good point. Sure, if you crit on your first hit with a x3 it's great, but if your opponent has 1hp left it doesn't matter much. Or rather, if your opponent has between one to two times your non-crit damage, a x2 crit will still drop them but you have twice the chance to get it. They are roughly equal, though, so go with what you like.
Zevox 05-20-07, 06:55 PM	Do failed guild assault fights get looser rewards like a monster fight, or no rewards like a failed quest? Nothing, like a miniquest (because thats what they are). Probably both out of cycle MQ, but open to longer quests if someone has a fun idea. Out of cycle MQs are no longer allowed. That was removed as part of the rule change that switched the 1 quest/level restriction to a 1 successful quest/level restriction. Zevox
templer10 05-21-07, 11:33 AM	when grappling - anmd doing a grapple check- if dice results with modifiers are even - the guy with higher grapple modifier wins - correct?
TelinArtho 05-21-07, 11:49 AM	Correct: In case of a tie, the combatant with the higher grapple check modifier wins. If this is a tie, roll again to break the tie.
Hirumajoe 05-21-07, 01:35 PM	Does Mindblank (and by extension the Slayer Cerebral Blind ability) prevent See Invisibility from detecting you while invisible (from say Greater Invisibility)? I'm trying to figure out if a Pixie Ranger 2/Wilder 2/Paladin 2/Slayer 10 would be viable (or maybe a Paladin 4/Wilder 4/Slayer 8). Its tight on feats, but it has lots of special abilities (Cha to saves, Cha to touch AC, Greater Invisibility, SR = ECL+1, minor psionic buffs). Using Composite Longbow and a Weapon Finessed Rapier. Around ECL 10 it would look something like: +5 BAB, +9 Dex mod, +2 Bow, +1 Size = +17 to hit. AC would be 10 + 4 (Inertial armor) + 4 (Force Screen) + 2 (Ring of Deflection) + 2 (Amulet of Nat Armor) + 1 (Natural Armor) + 9 (Dex) + 1 (Size) + 1 (Dodge Feat) = 34 AC. Touch AC = 10 + 7 (Cha) + 2 (Ring of Deflection) + 9 Dex +1 Size +1 Dodge Feat = 30 AC. Saves would be +16 Fort/+19 Dex/ +11 Will with a 21 SR. Total credit cost starting at ECL 5 would be 10, then another 5 to change to Lawful Good once the Paladin levels need to be taken. Thoughts?
hogarth 05-21-07, 02:04 PM	Does Mindblank (and by extension the Slayer Cerebral Blind ability) prevent See Invisibility from detecting you while invisible (from say Greater Invisibility)? This has been debated many times by many people. My take is that See Invisibility affects the recipient's eyesight, making it better, and it's not an attempt to gather information on the target. I'm sure you'll get plenty of opinions supporting the opposite conclusion, though.
MindWandererB 05-21-07, 02:10 PM	Does Mindblank (and by extension the Slayer Cerebral Blind ability) prevent See Invisibility from detecting you while invisible (from say Greater Invisibility)? I'm trying to figure out if a Pixie Ranger 2/Wilder 2/Paladin 2/Slayer 10 would be viable (or maybe a Paladin 4/Wilder 4/Slayer 8). Its tight on feats, but it has lots of special abilities (Cha to saves, Cha to touch AC, Greater Invisibility, SR = ECL+1, minor psionic buffs). Using Composite Longbow and a Weapon Finessed Rapier. Around ECL 10 it would look something like: +5 BAB, +9 Dex mod, +2 Bow, +1 Size = +17 to hit. AC would be 10 + 4 (Inertial armor) + 4 (Force Screen) + 2 (Ring of Deflection) + 2 (Amulet of Nat Armor) + 1 (Natural Armor) + 9 (Dex) + 1 (Size) + 1 (Dodge Feat) = 34 AC. Touch AC = 10 + 7 (Cha) + 2 (Ring of Deflection) + 9 Dex +1 Size +1 Dodge Feat = 30 AC. Saves would be +16 Fort/+19 Dex/ +11 Will with a 21 SR. Total credit cost starting at ECL 5 would be 10, then another 5 to change to Lawful Good once the Paladin levels need to be taken. Thoughts? I wouldn't say "by extension," since the two mechanics are slightly different, but yes. See Invis is a divination spell, so Mind Blank, Cerebral Blind, and Nondetection all ward it off. (In fact, the next character I plan to create, when I feel like having that many characters active, is a Pixie Seer with Escape Detection--or possibly a sorcerer, wizard, or cleric with Nondetection). Edit: for corroboration against hogarth's opinion, I call attention to the fact that Escape Detection specifically mentions True Seeing, which is not unlike See Invisibility.
Yitzi 05-21-07, 02:13 PM	Does Mindblank (and by extension the Slayer Cerebral Blind ability) prevent See Invisibility from detecting you while invisible (from say Greater Invisibility)? I don't see why it should, See Invisibility is not mind-affecting or scrying, nor does it have anything to do with thoughts, it simply lets the caster see invisible things. Touchsight is more of a question, but even that seems to be a "no", as it seems to detect the hidden person's body rather than their mind. As for the point about Escape Detection, I agree 100%, and probably so does hogarth, that Escape Detection protects from See invisibility. But Mind Blank is not the same as Escape Detection. Cerebral Blind could go either way.
MindWandererB 05-21-07, 02:27 PM	I don't see why it should, See Invisibility is not mind-affecting or scrying, nor does it have anything to do with thoughts, it simply lets the caster see invisible things. Touchsight is more of a question, but even that seems to be a "no", as it seems to detect the hidden person's body rather than their mind. As for the point about Escape Detection, I agree 100%, and probably so does hogarth, that Escape Detection protects from See invisibility. But Mind Blank is not the same as Escape Detection. Cerebral Blind could go either way.All three effects include text to this effect: "This spell protects against ... information gathering by divination spells or effects." I don't know why Mind Blank does that, but it does. See Invis is definitely a divination spell, and it seems to be that it gathers information (certainly no less than scrying). Touchsight definitely still works, since it's psychometabolism rather than clairsentience.
Hirumajoe 05-21-07, 02:32 PM	After reaching 6th level, a slayer is protected from all devices, powers, and spells that reveal location. This ability protects against information gathering by clairsentience powers or effects that reveal location. The ability even foils bend reality, limited wish, miracle, reality revision, and wish when they are used to gain information about the slayer’s location (however, metafaculty can pierce this protective barrier). In the case of remote viewing or scrying that scans an area a slayer is in, the effect works, but the slayer simply isn’t detected. Remote viewing or scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at a slayer do not work. This ability is active as long as the slayer is psionically focused. On reaching 9th level, a slayer gains protection from all devices, powers, and spells that influence the mind. This ability shields her against almost all mind-affecting powers and effects (though the slayer can selectively allow powers or spells to affect her). The ability even foils bend reality, limited wish, miracle, reality revision, and wish when they are used to mentally influence a slayer. This ability is active as long as the slayer is psionically focused. The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all. Out of curiosity, what is the difference between the effects of Cerebral Blind + Cerebral Immunity versus Mindblank? (I know they're different in source, a SU versus a spell, but their effects look very similarly worded to me). In which situations will one protect and the other not? Edit: Or perhaps I'm misunderstanding your comment on "by extension".
Yitzi 05-21-07, 03:08 PM	If they detect the mind, but do not influence it or detect location (e.g. detect thoughts), mindblank will protect from them, but neither cerebral blind nor cerebral immunity will. If they detect location, but have nothing to do with the mind and are not scrying (see invisibility may fall under this category, I'm not sure), mind blank will not affect it, but cerebral blind will.
Usurpator 05-21-07, 03:15 PM	I remember participating extensive (and I mean *extensive*) discussions about this subject on ENWorld. There are loads over very creative (but valid) arguments there supporting either interpretation. My common DM sense says that Mind Blank was never meant to protect against see invisibility, and that is merely a victim of unintended/vague rules coincidences.
MindWandererB 05-21-07, 03:38 PM	I remember participating extensive (and I mean *extensive*) discussions about this subject on ENWorld. There are loads over very creative (but valid) arguments there supporting either interpretation. My common DM sense says that Mind Blank was never meant to protect against see invisibility, and that is merely a victim of unintended/vague rules coincidences.The thing I don't understand is why "Mind Blank," which in theory makes your mind protected from intrusion, also protects against scrying. Scrying has nothing to do with the mind at all. So logical arguments that rely on the "physics" of making your mind invisible don't really help here. Take a look at this: The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.The first underlined portion defines the spell's general function, referring to emotions or thoughts and not physical characteristics. The second underlined portion also specifically mentions the subject's mind only (so if you wished to know where the target was physically located, there seems to be no reason why it wouldn't work). But then it goes on to reference Arcane Eye, which doesn't give you anything but visual information. Using that as an example, there doesn't seem to be any reason why See Invis would be any different.
Hirumajoe 05-21-07, 03:53 PM	I present Altair, the Ranger pixie. Planning on going Ranger 2 -> Wilder 2 -> Paladin 2 -> Slayer 10. Probably grabbing Psionic Shot at 3rd and Leadership at 6th. Possibly dumping 1 point into Wis to grab Psionic Meditation around 9th. Not so sure what to do with feats 12 and 15. Possibly Expanded Knowledge like Defensive Precognition and Energy Missile or something. Powers would probably be Offensive Prescience (+2 to +5 damage)(1st), Vigor (1st),Defensive Precognition (2nd), Dispel Psionics (3rd), Freedom of Movement (Psionic) (4th), Energy Bolt (5th). Thoughts?
MindWandererB 05-21-07, 04:01 PM	Ask Wizards today: Q: Dear Sage, If a specialist wizard gains levels in a different spellcasting class, does her choice of forbidden spells affect her spell choice for the new class? --Alan A: No. Though the School Specialization sidebar (PHB 57) is not explicit, the forbidden schools only pertain to spells gained from the wizard class. Which is what we'd decided, but it's good to get confirmation.
Rauul 05-21-07, 04:05 PM	attempting to figure out Diplomatic Allys for Shadow ECL 4, cha 16 +3, Diplomacy 11.. Bard 3 What is his BaseCD? For example.. Shadow wants to get a Halfling Diplomacy Ally Accually 2 (2 street punks) (CR 1/2)
waywreth 05-21-07, 04:07 PM	I present Altair, the Ranger pixie. Thoughts? I hate pixies! Oh you wanted actual comments... I would think you might want to move into psi-warrior for some actual damage output. Just a different take on it - being able to actually power the psionic shot and deepcrystal at your current level would help. This would also allow you to use powerstones of inertial armor which would be far cheaper. And vigor powerstones are good as well. Since you have so low hp and no way to mitigate not getting hit (ala sniping via hide or mirror image or something), I see issues with you surviving for the first few levels. Oh and minor typo under non-combat abilities > ranger: You have "Shield (expect Tower) Proficiency", but I suspect you meant except. I would also check out Noko for some ideas of a successful pixie.
Hirumajoe 05-21-07, 04:14 PM	I hate pixies! Oh you wanted actual comments... I would think you might want to move into psi-warrior for some actual damage output. Just a different take on it - being able to actually power the psionic shot and deepcrystal at your current level would help. This would also allow you to use powerstones of inertial armor which would be far cheaper. And vigor powerstones are good as well. Since you have so low hp and no way to mitigate not getting hit (ala sniping via hide or mirror image or something), I see issues with you surviving for the first few levels. Oh and minor typo under non-combat abilities > ranger: You have "Shield (expect Tower) Proficiency", but I suspect you meant except. I would also check out Noko for some ideas of a successful pixie. Damage mitigation I was thinking was coming from High AC, SR, and Greater Invisibility. Admittedly, without a cheap Force Screen, his AC isn't as high as it could be. I was pushing the damage (i.e. +1 Bow with Psychokinetic) over the defense (+1 Deflection Ring and a +1 Natural Armor amulet) but I could certainly switch those around. Getting about 26 AC with the current ranger level (or switching to Wilder, grabbing 30 AC). I was certainly debating whether to take the Wilder level as the 1st one or the Ranger level. Wilder would get access to Force Screen and Inertial Armor for cheap, earlier. It also loses 8 skill points and 2 hit points in the long run.
MindWandererB 05-21-07, 04:16 PM	I would also check out Noko for some ideas of a successful pixie.Dude, you don't need to see an example of a successful pixie. There haven't been any unsuccessful pixies. You'd have to be a half-celestial bard/soulknife pixie to be likely to rack up a poor record.
Rauul 05-21-07, 04:17 PM	Dude, you don't need to see an example of a successful pixie. There haven't been any unsuccessful pixies. You'd have to be a half-celestial bard/soulknife pixie to be likely to rack up a poor record. acually i like sliver
TelinArtho 05-21-07, 04:18 PM	attempting to figure out Diplomatic Allys for Shadow ECL 4, cha 16 +3, Diplomacy 11.. Bard 3 What is his BaseCD? For example.. Shadow wants to get a Halfling Diplomacy Ally Accually 2 (2 street punks) (CR 1/2) No problem there - Diplomacy allies are being removed...
Macbrea 05-21-07, 04:18 PM	hmm, half-celestial bard/soulknife pixie.....
Hirumajoe 05-21-07, 04:27 PM	Hmm... Well, I have been wondering if you could make a Raging Barbarian Pixie effectively... Actually, perhaps a 2 Weapon wielding Barbarian/Psiwarrior Pixie. That could be amusing. And it might actually work. Offensive Prescience + Short Swords + Weapon Finesse + Expansion + Rage + 2 Weapon Fightning at ECL 6. 1d6+6/1d6+6 at +7 to hit each I think. If it were allowed, a Whirling Frenzy Barbarian Pixie would be cool (but I don't think thats in the approved Variant stuff).
TelinArtho 05-21-07, 04:29 PM	Whirling Frenzy is in there - look under class variants.
McJarvis 05-21-07, 04:29 PM	If it were allowed, a Whirling Frenzy Barbarian Pixie would be cool (but I don't think thats in the approved Variant stuff). Whirling frenzy is allowed. It's one of the few super-powerful UA variants allowed that hasn't been used yet. (to my knowledge) I currently plan on having General Zaroff pick it up for his fifth level.
Hirumajoe 05-21-07, 04:30 PM	Oh really.... I may have to change this pixie idea around then... Back to the drawing board!
waywreth 05-21-07, 04:31 PM	Getting about 26 AC with the current ranger level (or switching to Wilder, grabbing 30 AC). I was certainly debating whether to take the Wilder level as the 1st one or the Ranger level. Wilder would get access to Force Screen and Inertial Armor for cheap, earlier. It also loses 8 skill points and 2 hit points in the long run. I personally don't like wilder (or sorcerer) myself as charisma can be a dump stat otherwise (and intelligence is more valuable). One thing to note right now, is that you almost autolose to psions (touchsight plus something like crystal share or energy missle), which have become common. Also don't forget that pixies make pitlords cry.
MitzaVolchenko 05-21-07, 04:36 PM	Does Mindblank (and by extension the Slayer Cerebral Blind ability) prevent See Invisibility from detecting you while invisible (from say Greater Invisibility)? I'm trying to figure out if a Pixie Ranger 2/Wilder 2/Paladin 2/Slayer 10 would be viable (or maybe a Paladin 4/Wilder 4/Slayer 8). Its tight on feats, but it has lots of special abilities (Cha to saves, Cha to touch AC, Greater Invisibility, SR = ECL+1, minor psionic buffs). Using Composite Longbow and a Weapon Finessed Rapier. Around ECL 10 it would look something like: +5 BAB, +9 Dex mod, +2 Bow, +1 Size = +17 to hit. AC would be 10 + 4 (Inertial armor) + 4 (Force Screen) + 2 (Ring of Deflection) + 2 (Amulet of Nat Armor) + 1 (Natural Armor) + 9 (Dex) + 1 (Size) + 1 (Dodge Feat) = 34 AC. Touch AC = 10 + 7 (Cha) + 2 (Ring of Deflection) + 9 Dex +1 Size +1 Dodge Feat = 30 AC. Saves would be +16 Fort/+19 Dex/ +11 Will with a 21 SR. Total credit cost starting at ECL 5 would be 10, then another 5 to change to Lawful Good once the Paladin levels need to be taken. Thoughts? Pixies were more or less whittled down to not worth the LA between CoCo rules and changes in the rules from WotC. Hit points are too low, and Greater Invis is the only real advantage with the 3FC in place. Everyone and their brother has a means of detecting invisible creatures...just not really worth it, IMO. Now if it is ruled that Cerebral Blind works...maybe...but still probably not.
MindWandererB 05-21-07, 04:37 PM	Hmm... Well, I have been wondering if you could make a Raging Barbarian Pixie effectively... Actually, perhaps a 2 Weapon wielding Barbarian/Psiwarrior Pixie. That could be amusing. And it might actually work. Offensive Prescience + Short Swords + Weapon Finesse + Expansion + Rage + 2 Weapon Fightning at ECL 6. 1d6+6/1d6+6 at +7 to hit each I think. If it were allowed, a Whirling Frenzy Barbarian Pixie would be cool (but I don't think thats in the approved Variant stuff). Yep, it's there (under "Class Feature Variants"). Edit: Slowest reply ever.
TelinArtho 05-21-07, 04:40 PM	That's okay MWB - with your GM powers - aren't you able to delete posts? You could just "remove" the "offending" posts between his question and our answers...
Zevox 05-21-07, 04:41 PM	Pixies were more or less whittled down to not worth the LA between CoCo rules and changes in the rules from WotC. Hit points are too low, and Greater Invis is the only real advantage with the 3FC in place. Everyone and their brother has a means of detecting invisible creatures...just not really worth it, IMO. Now if it is ruled that Cerebral Blind works...maybe...but still probably not. SR 15+HD is a huge advantage if you ask me. Theres nothing else that gets SR that good at that low of an LA to my knowledge - for the same LA, Half-Celestials and Half-Fiends only get SR 10+HD. Plus those SLAs aren't anything to scoff at, only usable once per cycle or not. Pixies are still well worth their LA from where I'm sitting. As MWB noted, we've never had an unsuccessful one. Whirling frenzy is allowed. It's one of the few super-powerful UA variants allowed that hasn't been used yet. (to my knowledge) Cat had it on Indri. Hes the only one though. Thank God I say. Thats one of the UA things I wish we'd altered when we accepted it as an option here. Zevox
Hirumajoe 05-21-07, 04:42 PM	I know, I know. Submarine builds aren't fun to pitlord. But then again, as you pointed out, he doesn't have all that much in the way of snipe options. He's not designed as a submarine build. (And Whirling Frenzy Barbarian Two-weapon fighting Pixie would be even less submarine...) I guess I'm just trying to come up with a successful build to make myself feel better. Kai Engel is currently having issues (nor do I expect him to win his current fight vs a straight Psion (Kinetic)). You don't see very many Eldritch Knight builds around (probably for good reason). And Valen is nearing freeze territory with very few ECL 9s active making it mostly monster fights. I thought a Pixie might be fun and effective. Edit: Originally in response to Waywreth's comments, but apparently alot of responses today. :)
Zevox 05-21-07, 04:44 PM	You don't see very many Eldritch Knight builds around (probably for good reason). Mithos is going to be an Eldritch Knight. Won't get his first level in it until ECL 9, but thats where hes headed. Zevox
TelinArtho 05-21-07, 04:45 PM	Okay - I've been tossing around a couple of creations that I need to work out specifics on. Most of the hindrance I'm working on is the restriction on allies in ECL3 and 4 - but I want to make sure: 1. You can only have class allies and purchased animals at ECL3 and 4 correct? 2. Can a purchased animal be killed off and animated with NPC services and subsequently commanded by a PC? 3. How about a PC using NPC services to have LPA cast to summon an elemental and then use the Domain ability to command said elemental? (LPA's a bad example... I was going to say Gate, but that's already been ruled out...) The goal here is a character who is able and does use both undead and elementals as allies. With the removal of diplomacy allies - the elemental domains might be worth exploring now as an alternative "Denthian" faith... The side goal is to be able to do this at ECL3, rather than "cheating" and starting at ECL5+...
waywreth 05-21-07, 04:47 PM	I was actually leaning towards trying an Eldrich Knight build myself, but realized the last one I made was only partially successful. I've gone through dozens of builds myself, and the only one with better than 50% wins was a straight psion. A whirling frenzy TWF pixie would at least be interesting... Speaking of (and this is towards everyone) - any feedback on my fairly cookie cutter druid build would be most appreciated. Inzin Dar'ath
McJarvis 05-21-07, 04:49 PM	I guess I'm just trying to come up with a successful build to make myself feel better. Kai Engel is currently having issues (nor do I expect him to win his current fight vs a straight Psion (Kinetic)). You don't see very many Eldritch Knight builds around (probably for good reason). I think in order to be an effective EK in this format you have to have some sort of gimmick to make it through the earlier(and tougher) levels. Davian will likely become an Eldritch Knight, and I'm pretty certain that he will be sucessful. Losing 3 caster levels from Human Paragon+Fighter+EK is just roughing an already tough early-on build. Alternatively, you can ignore that you're an EK for Wizard 5 & then take your fighter level. Or pull a TIM and just truestrike people to death with some sort of nasty alpha strike until ECL 5->6. But that's getting back into gimmicks....
templer10 05-21-07, 04:52 PM	Question - the druid varient class feature - "aspect of nature" - every time you take on an aspect you can choose between any of the aspects correct? also- not that it's really relevent until ages from now - some of the aspects mention that you cant cast spells while using it - can you still cast spells if you have the natural spell feat?
Zevox 05-21-07, 04:52 PM	1. You can only have class allies and purchased animals at ECL3 and 4 correct? Correct. 2. Can a purchased animal be killed off and animated with NPC services and subsequently commanded by a PC? Incorrect. When I asked if Asran's cohort Senorda could animate undead for him to command if she fell, I was told the animated undead would only obey commands from their creator (i.e. even if that command were to obey another, they would be incapable of obeying that one). So no NPC animating unless that ruling were overturned. 3. How about a PC using NPC services to have LPA cast to summon an elemental and then use the Domain ability to command said elemental? (LPA's a bad example... I was going to say Gate, but that's already been ruled out...) Eh, sounds quite iffy to me. Certainly it won't be allowed at ECL 3 or 4, since this wouldn't be a purchased or class ally, if thats what you're getting at (purchasing the spellcasting service =! purchased ally). Zevox
McJarvis 05-21-07, 04:55 PM	Question - the druid varient class feature - "aspect of nature" - every time you take on an aspect you can choose between any of the aspects correct? Each aspect as a minimum druid level you need to access it. also- not that it's really relevent until ages from now - some of the aspects mention that you cant cast spells while using it - can you still cast spells if you have the natural spell feat? By strict reading of the rules-> yes.
Hirumajoe 05-21-07, 04:56 PM	I think in order to be an effective EK in this format you have to have some sort of gimmick to make it through the earlier(and tougher) levels. Davian will likely become an Eldritch Knight, and I'm pretty certain that he will be sucessful. Losing 3 caster levels from Human Paragon+Fighter+EK is just roughing an already tough early-on build. Alternatively, you can ignore that you're an EK for Wizard 5 & then take your fighter level. Or pull a TIM and just truestrike people to death with some sort of nasty alpha strike until ECL 5->6. But that's getting back into gimmicks.... He does, kinda, maybe have a Gimmicky trip attack. Enlarge Person + Improved Trip means he's around +12 on trips at a range of 10'. I guess my fundamental problem is he originally was designed to start at ECL 7 (from the UnCon Contest) and I simply cut him down to ECL 3. At ECL 7 he looks good on paper. (Craft Wonderous Item, +4 BAB, 5th level caster, Knock-down feat reasonable hit points with his 16 Con and Fighter/Human Paragon Hit dice.)
templer10 05-21-07, 04:56 PM	I was actually leaning towards trying an Eldrich Knight build myself, but realized the last one I made was only partially successful. I've gone through dozens of builds myself, and the only one with better than 50% wins was a straight psion. A whirling frenzy TWF pixie would at least be interesting... Speaking of (and this is towards everyone) - any feedback on my fairly cookie cutter druid build would be most appreciated. Inzin Dar'ath iam not sure going with mounted combat will get you much beyond low levels - at least if you are planning on getting dire bat at level 4 - those already have high AC to begin with and with shared barkskin it gets ridiculesly high so iam not sure how much benefit you will get from it.
TelinArtho 05-21-07, 04:57 PM	Incorrect. When I asked if Asran's cohort Senorda could animate undead for him to command if she fell, I was told the animated undead would only obey commands from their creator (i.e. even if that command were to obey another, they would be incapable of obeying that one). So no NPC animating unless that ruling were overturned. Not quite what I was getting at here. The cleric I have would command (as in rebuke) the undead after someone else (he paid) animated them. In either case, it does look like these things are "forced" to wait until ECL5+, bummer... I have to say - for all of the rules we've put in place - that is one of the few that I constantly hit. I guess I just like to make builds that have allies as a central aspect...
MitzaVolchenko 05-21-07, 04:57 PM	SR 15+HD is a huge advantage if you ask me. Theres nothing else that gets SR that good at that low of an LA to my knowledge - for the same LA, Half-Celestials and Half-Fiends only get SR 10+HD. Plus those SLAs aren't anything to scoff at, only usable once per cycle or not. Pixies are still well worth their LA from where I'm sitting. As MWB noted, we've never had an unsuccessful one. Zevox We haven't had that many, and I retired mine before putting her into the 3FC slaughterhouse :)
Hirumajoe 05-21-07, 05:02 PM	I was actually leaning towards trying an Eldrich Knight build myself, but realized the last one I made was only partially successful. I've gone through dozens of builds myself, and the only one with better than 50% wins was a straight psion. A whirling frenzy TWF pixie would at least be interesting... Speaking of (and this is towards everyone) - any feedback on my fairly cookie cutter druid build would be most appreciated. Inzin Dar'ath Doesn't seem to have enough damage umph. You're essentially relying on Produce Flame as your only viable attack. A single casting of Resist Energy (Fire) is going to nullify your primary attack. I suppose spontaneous SNA will provide some, but then you've got Protection from Evil issues. I'm also not exactly sure where the build is going at higher levels.
Zevox 05-21-07, 05:07 PM	Speaking of (and this is towards everyone) - any feedback on my fairly cookie cutter druid build would be most appreciated. Inzin Dar'ath Meh, just another Halfling Druid on a Riding Dog companion. Seen it, fought it, bought the movie rights. Color me unimpressed :bored: . Looks like he'll have the same issues as all the rest - reliance on Produce Flame, Summoning, and his Dog at low levels, vulnerable to those that kill his dog or grapple at low levels, then gets tougher at high levels as more and more spells become available to him. Should work about as well as all the rest. Zevox
templer10 05-21-07, 05:09 PM	Doesn't seem to have enough damage umph. You're essentially relying on Produce Flame as your only viable attack. A single casting of Resist Energy (Fire) is going to nullify your primary attack. I suppose spontaneous SNA will provide some, but then you've got Protection from Evil issues. I'm also not exactly sure where the build is going at higher levels. protection from evil only helps againt evil and natural summons, there are some good summons from SNA3 and on but i see your point. i would reccomend getting magic stone - it's effective even with low Str since the magic stones dmg is unrelated on str. also getting some produce flame (sonic, acid etc) scrolls will help get you through ECL3. at ecl 4 get rod of extend spell (3000 GP) will double the offensive punch of a lot of the spells.
MindWandererB 05-21-07, 05:17 PM	That's okay MWB - with your GM powers - aren't you able to delete posts? You could just "remove" the "offending" posts between his question and our answers... Sure, I could do that. If I wanted the WizOs to come by and whisk away my GM title in no time flat. I may have moderator abilities, but I'm only supposed to use them for administrative purposes. If something comes up that violates the code of conduct, I'm supposed to flag it just like everyone else. And I definitely shouldn't abuse it like that.
TelinArtho 05-21-07, 05:21 PM	I, of course, was joking... That said - I'm a mod on another forum (not D&D related) and the mods there have no problem "altering reality" as they see fit. It is entirely a love-hate relationship though (the community hates the mods, the mods love to give them trouble...). Of course that forum is just a fan-site for a video game, so its not like there's really anything "important" going on that actually makes a difference...
MindWandererB 05-21-07, 05:29 PM	I, of course, was joking... That said - I'm a mod on another forum (not D&D related) and the mods there have no problem "altering reality" as they see fit. It is entirely a love-hate relationship though (the community hates the mods, the mods love to give them trouble...). Of course that forum is just a fan-site for a video game, so its not like there's really anything "important" going on that actually makes a difference... I was pretty sure you were, but I'm a little self-conscious about my authority role here, especially after what happened with Cat. The last thing I want people to think is that I'm some kind of whimsical despot, even for just an instant.
Yitzi 05-21-07, 05:29 PM	Ask Wizards today: Which is what we'd decided, but it's good to get confirmation. What do you mean "which is what we'd decided"?: Q: Is a multi-class character who has levels in a class that restricts the type of spells he can cast (such as opposed alignment spells for clerics or druids or restricted spell schools for specialist wizards) still able to cast the restricted spells with other spellcasting classes he may have? A: No. If a certain spell or spells are restricted for one of the character's classes, they are restricted for all of the character's classes. About Altair, it seems to me that ranger is one of the worst classes for a pixie. The ranger's main advantages over the fighter are ability to use wand of CLW, skills, and hiding ability. For the wand of CLW, paladin is better and gives other bonuses too (although it has slightly less feats), and a pixie can't do that much in terms of skills on account of having 4 less HD than anybody else, and has plenty of hiding ability anyway. If you really want a pixie that attacks straight with weapons, I'd say go for fighter, you get more feats that way.
MindWandererB 05-21-07, 05:36 PM	What do you mean "which is what we'd decided"?What I mean is, apparently, that my memory is entirely faulty. NiQil, are you on top of this?
TelinArtho 05-21-07, 05:46 PM	If a Cleric 3 had the Improved Turning feat and was evil (rebuke/command) - could he use Command a 2HD undead? I think the answer is yes - but I'd rather ask now and be sure than create a character and find out I'm wrong later :)
hogarth 05-21-07, 06:09 PM	The thing I don't understand is why "Mind Blank," which in theory makes your mind protected from intrusion, also protects against scrying. Scrying has nothing to do with the mind at all. I wouldn't say Scrying has nothing to do with the mind -- you're required to scry on a creature, and that creature gets a Will save. It's not mind-affecting, though. The problem with the Mind Blank wording is that it doesn't say "the subject is immune to divination spells". It uses the bafflegab phrasing "information gathering by divination spells or effects". So what does that mean? Is True Strike ineffective because it "gathers information" on how to hit someone? Does Object Reading fail? What about Comprehend Languages? There's no good answer because it doesn't specify what "information gathering" is. To me, "information gathering by divination" implies one of the following (1) "magical sensor"-type spells (like Scrying), (2) "detect"-type area spells (like Detect Magic), or (3) "ask a question" spells (like Contact Other Plane). I would exclude True Strike, Object Reading, See Invisibility and various others. But there's no black and white answer (until WotC adds one to the FAQ).
Yitzi 05-21-07, 06:09 PM	What I mean is, apparently, that my memory is entirely faulty. So will the new rule keep all the cases together, but as permitted, or will it say that specialist wizard restictions apply only to wizard spells, but all the other restrictions apply to those from all classes?
waywreth 05-21-07, 06:45 PM	@templar10 - Thanks for the tip with magic stones. Didn't realize the damage was a replacement effect. I'll pick up a sling and a few scrolls. @Zevox - Pretty much, but hopefully at higher levels I'll try some spells/tactics that haven't been used yet. Druids have always been the most optimized "pure class" so I wanted to test it in this environment. @Hirumajoe - If they cast resist fire I can go with a dog attacking and perhaps sling bullets. And of course SNA. Like all druids, the build gets better at 6th level when you no longer have to worry about a low str/dex. Thanks for the feedback.
templer10 05-21-07, 06:53 PM	@templar10 - Thanks for the tip with magic stones. Didn't realize the damage was a replacement effect. I'll pick up a sling and a few scrolls. @Zevox - Pretty much, but hopefully at higher levels I'll try some spells/tactics that haven't been used yet. Druids have always been the most optimized "pure class" so I wanted to test it in this environment. @Hirumajoe - If they cast resist fire I can go with a dog attacking and perhaps sling bullets. And of course SNA. Like all druids, the build gets better at 6th level when you no longer have to worry about a low str/dex. Thanks for the feedback. might i reccomend at higher level multiple wands/scrolls of produce flame (choose your favorite type) - it's effective against anyone without multiple copies of ressist energy.
Yitzi 05-21-07, 09:29 PM	Like all druids, the build gets better at 6th level when you no longer have to worry about a low str/dex. Why, what's 6th level?
templer10 05-21-07, 09:31 PM	Why, what's 6th level? wildshape + natural spell.
Erithmu 05-21-07, 09:57 PM	What's Wildshape ... my druid doesn't have that??? ;)
TheMagister 05-22-07, 02:49 AM	{At the sound of the tone, it will be a day and a half until pairings} {ding!} @Mitza - any word on if the campaign is gonna start this week? TM
Rauul 05-22-07, 06:52 AM	Can someone tell me the cost of adding +2 cha to a Cloak of elven Kind.. is it 4000 gp + 10 credits?
templer10 05-22-07, 07:39 AM	Can someone tell me the cost of adding +2 cha to a Cloak of elven Kind.. is it 4000 gp + 10 credits? it's 5,250 GP i think - since when storing multpitle diffrent abilities the lower ability cost is multiplied by 1.5. (so 2500X1.5+4000-2500(already paid=5,250) for credit i have no idia.
Salrantol 05-22-07, 08:03 AM	I think MWB/Pitlords might like to know about a misplaced character. TelinArtho's Faelto, who is ECL 7, is listed in the ECL 6 league.
McJarvis 05-22-07, 08:23 AM	it's 5,250 GP i think - since when storing multpitle diffrent abilities the lower ability cost is multiplied by 1.5. (so 2500X1.5+4000-2500(already paid=5,250) for credit i have no idia. Why subtract 2500? You're effectively only adding half the cost of the cloak of hiding. A combo item should cost more than two seperate items, since it effectively removes a body slot. (2500x1.5) + 4000= 7,750
templer10 05-22-07, 08:42 AM	Why subtract 2500? You're effectively only adding half the cost of the cloak of hiding. A combo item should cost more than two seperate items, since it effectively removes a body slot. (2500x1.5) + 4000= 7,750 since he already have a cloak of elvenkind - he just wants to improve it to be clock of elvenkind and charisma +2.
waywreth 05-22-07, 09:03 AM	wildshape + natural spell. You are correct sir!
McJarvis 05-22-07, 09:12 AM	since he already have a cloak of elvenkind - he just wants to improve it to be clock of elvenkind and charisma +2. Ah, my bad for not reading the context :)
TelinArtho 05-22-07, 09:36 AM	I think MWB/Pitlords might like to know about a misplaced character. TelinArtho's Faelto, who is ECL 7, is listed in the ECL 6 league. No worries - she's retired anyway.
Abyssal Stalker 05-22-07, 11:50 AM	Can we get undead created from advanced creatures? Templates are OK with skeletons also, right?
TelinArtho 05-22-07, 11:56 AM	Advanced was fine (Cat had an advanced Nightmare skeleton). Templates are probably a no-go though - since we've been pretty consistent about nixing templated allies (at least - on non-leadership allies...)
Yitzi 05-22-07, 12:00 PM	Er, skeleton is a template.
Zevox 05-22-07, 12:13 PM	Can we get undead created from advanced creatures? Templates are OK with skeletons also, right? Advanced is allowed, at a 5 credit cost like most advanced allies. Templates I'm not so sure. I seem to recall someone suggesting a Half-Dragon skeleton at one point, and the reaction to it being quite negative, and the suggestion being subsequently made that templates not be allowed on animated undead allies. Zevox
Rauul 05-22-07, 12:20 PM	Both my miniquests are done... Silly sleep casting and sleep poison using things... made then very anticlimatic... go for a snooze and read them in questlogs.. EHTC has 2 new members now.. Edit> Sorry should be in FoTw
TelinArtho 05-22-07, 12:21 PM	Er, skeleton is a template. Yeah - I realized that after I walked away from my computer... In any case- templates on non-leadership allies have been pretty much restricted to the zombie and skeleton templates. Better?
Rauul 05-22-07, 12:56 PM	it's 5,250 GP i think - since when storing multpitle diffrent abilities the lower ability cost is multiplied by 1.5. (so 2500X1.5+4000-2500(already paid=5,250) for credit i have no idia. Well the credits i know is 10 as listed in the Blackmarket but i have been looking for what the cost to improve an item I get 4000x1.5 -2500= 3500gp to add them together.. (it's not the lowest cost it's the new item thats made at 1.5) If the item is one that occupies a specific place on a character’s body the cost of adding any additional ability to that item increases by 50%. For example, if a character adds the power to confer invisibility to her ring of protection +2, the cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of invisibility multiplied by 1.5.
McJarvis 05-22-07, 12:58 PM	You know, I'm really hating the 3FC right now. I want to activate Nukpana without doing another gather info run, but I can't bring myself to forge in 3 fights without the resources. =\ [And who would use Gather info as a free activity when given other options?] Curse this patience forced upon me!
TelinArtho 05-22-07, 01:03 PM	Take this to heart McJ: wahhhhhh :)
MindWandererB 05-22-07, 01:31 PM	I think MWB/Pitlords might like to know about a misplaced character. TelinArtho's Faelto, who is ECL 7, is listed in the ECL 6 league.No worries - she's retired anyway.Both of these sorts of things should be PM'ed to Pitlords, for future reference.
SoulLord 05-22-07, 01:39 PM	You know, I'm really hating the 3FC right now. I want to activate Nukpana without doing another gather info run, but I can't bring myself to forge in 3 fights without the resources. =\ [And who would use Gather info as a free activity when given other options?] Curse this patience forced upon me! you are not alone I also see lots of areas of improvement for the 3FC as it currently stands....
Rauul 05-22-07, 01:42 PM	you are not alone I also see lots of areas of improvement for the 3FC as it currently stands.... Well I for one wish that Crafting didn't count for having a charater activated since it dosen't use up our Pitlord staff... but thats just me..
McJarvis 05-22-07, 01:43 PM	Well I for one wish that Crafting didn't count for having a charater activated since it dosen't use up our Pitlord staff... but thats just me.. Yeah. No one else is hell-bent on making crafting more powerful ;)
Rauul 05-22-07, 01:47 PM	Yeah. No one else is hell-bent on making crafting more powerful ;) Define more powerful.... One charater crafting... 2 charaters fighting in the arena.. (costs 1 credit) how is that making crafting more powerful... Silly boy..Just means a player could have 2 charaters fighting... and an off charater crafting like he normally would be anyways..
TelinArtho 05-22-07, 01:48 PM	Both of these sorts of things should be PM'ed to Pitlords, for future reference. My mistake - I thought I had... maybe I just mentioned it to your alter ego in TLT though...
McJarvis 05-22-07, 01:51 PM	Define more powerful.... One charater crafting... 2 charaters fighting in the arena.. (costs 1 credit) how is that making crafting more powerful... Silly boy..Just means a player could have 2 charaters fighting... and an off charater crafting like he normally would be anyways.. Less restrictions for one thing in particular=more powerful. I didn't say it was an overpowering change, just that it made crafting more powerful.
Usurpator 05-22-07, 01:54 PM	Well I for one wish that Crafting didn't count for having a charater activated since it dosen't use up our Pitlord staff... but thats just me.. Look at it from the other angle, wanting to craft things is an extra incentive to Pitlord. And considering the workload of some Pitlords, extra incentives are never a bad idea.
waywreth 05-22-07, 01:55 PM	I have a character that just finished the 3FC, and is about 50xp short of leveling. Can I have him fight this week and then craft for the remainder of the cycle? Or can I have him craft mid-cycle and he would just pick up at week 2 when he begins fighting again? Thanks,
McJarvis 05-22-07, 01:56 PM	I have a character that just finished the 3FC, and is about 50xp short of leveling. Can I have him fight this week and then craft for the remainder of the cycle? Or can I have him craft mid-cycle and he would just pick up at week 2 when he begins fighting again? Thanks, Nope. Your options are: 1) fight out the next 3FC. This isn't really that bad of an option. 2) MQ to try and level up. This is currently available for all characters ECL 4 and higher, I believe.
Erithmu 05-22-07, 01:58 PM	Nope. Your options are: 1) fight out the next 3FC. This isn't really that bad of an option. 2) MQ to try and level up. This is currently available for all characters ECL 4 and higher, I believe.No ... I'm 95% sure we removed the 'out of cycle' Miniquest option
waywreth 05-22-07, 02:00 PM	Nope. Your options are: 1) fight out the next 3FC. This isn't really that bad of an option. 2) MQ to try and level up. This is currently available for all characters ECL 4 and higher, I believe. Thank you for the quick reply. I thought out of sequence mini-quests were no longer allowed (meaning if I did one for week 1, he couldn't craft until after another 2 fights). @Erithmu :bow:
TelinArtho 05-22-07, 02:01 PM	The other side of crafting is that depending on how extensive the character crafts items will also show the player how much dedication he/she has. Kraegin for instance has been active for 50 weeks but for 17 of those - he was crafting. Not everyone would like to slow down the progression of their builds in order to accomodate many weeks of crafting. Also - having the character sit out gives a sort of check and balance to crafting. If people are crafting without anyone noting it (except for custom items in the blackmarket) - then mistakes on crafting might more easily pass by. I know I've sent multiple PMs to players and Pitlords about errors on crafting in the past and it is easier to correct before the item is used rather than after. @Waywreth - you have to continue on to your next 3FC. Miniquesting out of cycle was done away with fairly recently.
McJarvis 05-22-07, 02:01 PM	Thank you for the quick reply. I thought out of sequence mini-quests were no longer allowed (meaning if I did one for week 1, he couldn't craft until after another 2 fights). You can MQ out of cycle once per level. An elder apparently pays more attention in the council than I. Who knew?
Macbrea 05-22-07, 02:02 PM	No.. I believe you can MQ once per level, now. No out of cycle at all.
McJarvis 05-22-07, 02:02 PM	The other side of crafting is that depending on how extensive the character crafts items will also show the player how much dedication he/she has. Kraegin for instance has been active for 50 weeks but for 17 of those - he was crafting. Not everyone would like to slow down the progression of their builds in order to accomodate many weeks of crafting. Also - having the character sit out gives a sort of check and balance to crafting. If people are crafting without anyone noting it (except for custom items in the blackmarket) - then mistakes on crafting might more easily pass by. I know I've sent multiple PMs to players and Pitlords about errors on crafting in the past and it is easier to correct before the item is used rather than after. This was not Raull's point. He wanted you to still have to sit out for a week, but that sit-out not count towards your 2 activation max. [sans creds]
TelinArtho 05-22-07, 02:05 PM	Ah I see. In terms of that - you are correct - credits have to be useful for something and having multiple characters active is one of those somethings. While it might not take extra pitlords to have that character active (but only doing an at-home activity), it certainly does involve more work - from Pitlords (to make sure it is noted correctly on the battles post), to narcs for the prison (in the case of audits and violations) and in some cases the elder(s) in charge of the blackmarket, etc.
MindWandererB 05-22-07, 02:17 PM	My mistake - I thought I had... maybe I just mentioned it to your alter ego in TLT though... Yep... when you tell Guildmaster (TLT), I remove you from TLT's roster. You have to tell Pitlords (regardless of whether or not it's the same person at the time--and it wasn't, then) to be removed from the character roster.
waywreth 05-22-07, 02:39 PM	Do you have to do a miniquest to replace your animal companion if you choose to do so as a druid? (I think the answer is yes but wanted to clarify.) If yes, can you miniquest at level 3? (I think the answer is yes but wanted to clarify.)
Zevox 05-22-07, 02:42 PM	No.. I believe you can MQ once per level, now. No out of cycle at all. Slight correction: you can quest (MQ or full) successfully once per level. Unsuccessful quests don't count towards that limit anymore. Zevox
Zevox 05-22-07, 02:44 PM	Do you have to do a miniquest to replace your animal companion if you choose to do so as a druid? (I think the answer is yes but wanted to clarify.) If yes, can you miniquest at level 3? (I think the answer is yes but wanted to clarify.) 1) No. Class allies never need to be quested for (technically the rules say they do if no alternative method of obtaining them is specified, but all class allies have such - in the Druid's case, a 24 hour ritual). 2) If memory serves, yes, you could. I believe that was added at the same time out-of-cycle MQs were removed. Zevox
MindWandererB 05-22-07, 02:45 PM	Do you have to do a miniquest to replace your animal companion if you choose to do so as a druid? (I think the answer is yes but wanted to clarify.)Actually, no. It's covered in the "specified method" clause for obtaining an ally, namely a 24-hour ritual. You can't do it mid-cycle, but it doesn't take a quest.
waywreth 05-22-07, 02:47 PM	Actually, no. It's covered in the "specified method" clause for obtaining an ally, namely a 24-hour ritual. You can't do it mid-cycle, but it doesn't take a quest. Excellent. That's what I was hoping for! Thanks Zevox and MWB.
Abyssal Stalker 05-22-07, 03:01 PM	Advanced was fine (Cat had an advanced Nightmare skeleton). Templates are probably a no-go though - since we've been pretty consistent about nixing templated allies (at least - on non-leadership allies...) Thanks for the replies! I agree that adding templates to base creatures before making them undead would be pretty cheesy. I'm mainly thinking of templates like half-fiend that adds stat boosts and other nice things without increasing HD.
Zevox 05-22-07, 03:13 PM	I agree that adding templates to base creatures before making them undead would be pretty cheesy. I'm mainly thinking of templates like half-fiend that adds stat boosts and other nice things without increasing HD. Most of the things the Half-Fiend template would give are lost by becoming a Skeleton, actually. SR, DR, SLAs, resistances - about all you'd keep is weapon proficiencies, bite attack (skeleton gives you claws already), and the stat boosts. On a low-HD creature that'd be a huge boost for a low CR boost though, so I can see how it'd be abusable as hell. Zevox
McJarvis 05-22-07, 03:19 PM	Most of the things the Half-Fiend template would give are lost by becoming a Skeleton, actually. SR, DR, SLAs, resistances - about all you'd keep is weapon proficiencies, bite attack (skeleton gives you claws already), and the stat boosts. On a low-HD creature that'd be a huge boost for a low CR boost though, so I can see how it'd be abusable as hell. Zevox The Wings?
Abyssal Stalker 05-22-07, 03:21 PM	Most of the things the Half-Fiend template would give are lost by becoming a Skeleton, actually. SR, DR, SLAs, resistances - about all you'd keep is weapon proficiencies, bite attack (skeleton gives you claws already), and the stat boosts. On a low-HD creature that'd be a huge boost for a low CR boost though, so I can see how it'd be abusable as hell. Zevox Or just add the half-dragon template for the +8 STR. That's +4 to hit. It's a nice boost for any creature, considering it's free. Remember that skeletons CR is based only in HD. Edit: Skeletons can't fly with wings. On zombies that would work though.
Zevox 05-22-07, 03:28 PM	The Wings? Would be nice looking ornaments on a Skeleton, but useless. On a Zombie they'd be usable, but awfully slow and clumsy. Or just add the half-dragon template for the +8 STR. That's +4 to hit. It's a nice boost for any creature, considering it's free. Remember that skeletons CR is based only in HD. Half-Dragon is a big one, yes. I'd think the template would still modify the CR though. Zevox
Abyssal Stalker 05-22-07, 03:31 PM	Half-Dragon is a big one, yes. I'd think the template would still modify the CR though. Zevox Nope. Challenge Rating Depends on Hit Dice. See table.
TelinArtho 05-22-07, 03:37 PM	Its a good thing we got rid of diplomacy allies before they ran rampant through Gladius... Of the characters on the active roster there were 3 who had them (a fourth was Anakala whom I have already removed as a result of the ruling and there were a few more who have been removed already not as a result of the ruling (Cat's characters for instance)). Excuse me if I never felt they were a big deal...
templer10 05-22-07, 03:42 PM	if a char still has a power active from the last fight does it need to be mentioned in prebuffs or just visible in the 3FC section?
McJarvis 05-22-07, 03:43 PM	Its a good thing we got rid of diplomacy allies before they ran rampant through Gladius... Of the characters on the active roster there were 3 who had them (a fourth was Anakala whom I have already removed as a result of the ruling and there were a few more who have been removed already not as a result of the ruling (Cat's characters for instance)). Excuse me if I never felt they were a big deal... This is why I was always confused why people were so hateful towards them. If they were really a big problem, I feel like they would have been used more often than people take Rogue levels ;)
Zevox 05-22-07, 03:43 PM	Its a good thing we got rid of diplomacy allies before they ran rampant through Gladius... Of the characters on the active roster there were 3 who had them (a fourth was Anakala whom I have already removed as a result of the ruling and there were a few more who have been removed already not as a result of the ruling (Cat's characters for instance)). Excuse me if I never felt they were a big deal... Welcome to why I abstained from voting on that matter. if a char still has a power active from the last fight does it need to be mentioned in prebuffs or just visible in the 3FC section? Both, technically. Zevox
Zevox 05-22-07, 03:47 PM	This is why I was always confused why people were so hateful towards them. If they were really a big problem, I feel like they would have been used more often than people take Rogue levels ;) I imagine some folks still remembering the abuse that King Uther's character Balbanes made of them might be why they're so hated. Of course, that was under a diplomacy rule set that was completely different and much, much easier to abuse... and before allies needed to be prebuffed... Zevox
Rauul 05-22-07, 03:49 PM	Its a good thing we got rid of diplomacy allies before they ran rampant through Gladius... Of the characters on the active roster there were 3 who had them (a fourth was Anakala whom I have already removed as a result of the ruling and there were a few more who have been removed already not as a result of the ruling (Cat's characters for instance)). Excuse me if I never felt they were a big deal... 4.. cause i was specificly building Shadow to have rogues as Diplomatic allies... his own personnel thieves guild... now i have to wait till level 6, and get his cha to at least 18-20 and take leadership... And then you go and remove diplomacy alleys So now i have to acually think again...
Zevox 05-22-07, 03:51 PM	4.. cause i was specificly building Shadow to have rogues as Diplomatic allies... his own personnel thieves guild... Um, you couldn't get Rogues as diplomacy allies. Only the monsters from a select list were allowed, and they could only be advanced by racial HD, not class levels. Zevox
Rauul 05-22-07, 03:52 PM	I imagine some folks still remembering the abuse that King Uther's character Balbanes made of them might be why they're so hated. Of course, that was under a diplomacy rule set that was completely different and much, much easier to abuse... and before allies needed to be prebuffed... Zevox I think the handle animals Allies is off the scale myself.. Since they all go off the CR of a animal... Maybe telin should do a count on how many people have Animal Allies :)
Zevox 05-22-07, 03:56 PM	I think the handle animals Allies is off the scale myself.. Since they all go off the CR of a animal... Maybe telin should do a count on how many people have Animal Allies :) Um, Diplomacy allies used CR all the time as well, even though many of them had an LA. And in any event, no animals have an LA, so CR is the only way to measure it under the present ally rules at large. Zevox
McJarvis 05-22-07, 04:02 PM	Um, Diplomacy allies used CR all the time as well, even though many of them had an LA. And in any event, no animals have an LA, so CR is the only way to measure it under the present ally rules at large. Zevox We could treat them all like lycanthropes ;)
Macbrea 05-22-07, 04:03 PM	can someone explain exactly what happened with the allies or is the rules of gladius correct at this time? I haven't been able to actually follow the council thread with any luck to figure out what decision was made. And if some descision has been made different from the RULES thread can we please update that thread.
TelinArtho 05-22-07, 04:05 PM	I think the handle animals Allies is off the scale myself.. Since they all go off the CR of a animal... Maybe telin should do a count on how many people have Animal Allies :) Well certainly there's a lot more characters with animals - but how many of them are actually handle animal allies (meaning they had to invest points in handle animal and miniquest/quest for the ally)? Of my 20+ characters (and I use allies a lot...), Zax (Druid 5 - several vermin), Vakkor (Cleric of Denth 5 - several vermin) - and that's it. Frankly - most people use purchased allies at earlier levels, and occasionally upgrade them to hippogriffs/griffons/pegasi later on with either Leadership or paying more.
Zevox 05-22-07, 04:10 PM	Most of the HA users in the arena now are probably mine. I have Ceilia (Hippogriff), Asran (2 Dire Bats, RP: Hell's Furies), and once his MQ finishes Mithos (2 Hippogriffs) using it. Other than that I know MWB's Druid Aerryl uses it for a Bat Swarm and a Spider Eater. The rest of the HA users I know of are either retired (a couple of Druids) or listed by Telin. Zevox
TelinArtho 05-22-07, 04:10 PM	can someone explain exactly what happened with the allies or is the rules of gladius correct at this time? I haven't been able to actually follow the council thread with any luck to figure out what decision was made. And if some descision has been made different from the RULES thread can we please update that thread. I've asked twice in the council to have the book on Diplomacy allies closed - but I don't know if MWB has gotten around to fixing it up in the rules yet. I did post those violations in the prison in order to make it well known (in case others hadn't followed the conversation).
MindWandererB 05-22-07, 04:11 PM	can someone explain exactly what happened with the allies or is the rules of gladius correct at this time? I haven't been able to actually follow the council thread with any luck to figure out what decision was made. And if some descision has been made different from the RULES thread can we please update that thread.The first page of the Council links to decisions we've made. I update it at least once a week. I do think we could use a replacement of some sort. Mercenaries seem to fit the bill perfectly; there were a lot of people who wanted allies to impose a GP penalty, and that's what mercs do. I'm prepared to approve a whole slew of new mercenaries, ranging up to the moderately exotic. And Diplomacy can help mitigate those costs. I haven't deleted the Diplomacy ally stuff from the rules yet, partially because it's a huge section, and partially because it could help us with a revised system, for reference. Did you know that Cat's original proposal for mercenaries was to be able to hire monsters? Saw that in the archives. Its a good thing we got rid of diplomacy allies before they ran rampant through Gladius... Of the characters on the active roster there were 3 who had them (a fourth was Anakala whom I have already removed as a result of the ruling and there were a few more who have been removed already not as a result of the ruling (Cat's characters for instance)). Excuse me if I never felt they were a big deal...As of late, they haven't. The biggest abusers of the system are all gone now, except, IMO, Raskos' Yaurl. I think the reason we were finally able to get rid of them now is because all the major proponents of them, who actually used them, are gone.
Macbrea 05-22-07, 04:12 PM	So, did we just get rid of diplomacy all together. Not that any of my characters has it but Relanex. And he uses it for boost to his money making skill.
Zevox 05-22-07, 04:13 PM	can someone explain exactly what happened with the allies or is the rules of gladius correct at this time? I haven't been able to actually follow the council thread with any luck to figure out what decision was made. And if some descision has been made different from the RULES thread can we please update that thread. The consensus seemed to be to remove Diplomacy allies entirely. Purchased and Handle Animal allies are still under discussion (in theory, anyway - nobody has added anything in a day now, which usually signifies the discussion is dying). I'd think MWB will update the rules thread for that soon enough. Zevox
Usurpator 05-22-07, 04:14 PM	This is why I was always confused why people were so hateful towards them. If they were really a big problem, I feel like they would have been used more often than people take Rogue levels ;) Well, because there is a limit to the distance I will go to win. Play for fun first, to win second. Custom diplomacy allies, custom magic items, Pixie and Ghost gladiators, I simply dislike them so much I would not dream of using them to get the upper hand (edit: maybe only to prove a point about abusiveness) If you do want to 'abuse' some of the rules, I like it if people do so to make a normally non-viable build somewhat viable. If they just buff up an already powerful built by stacking questionable thing upon questionable thing (and combine it with questionable tactics besides) then I don't think it's fun anymore. I don't like to play with people who play just to win. Besides that, I love winning through tactics more than winning through superior builds.
MitzaVolchenko 05-22-07, 04:18 PM	Figures they'd get the axe when I was startig to look for an aly for Sybil...and of course Willowmoon, but she can just use her Leadership cohort and followers...either way, it needs to be wiped out of the rules section so as to avoid further confusion...sooner rather than later.
Hirumajoe 05-22-07, 04:18 PM	How much would a mithril chain shirt barding for your bat familiar cost, just out of curiosity? Bats are Diminutive. 1000 (Mithril) -300 (MW) = 700 (700 + 100) * 0.25 + 300 = 500 gp? (I'm thinking large is x4, medium is x2, small is x1, tiny is x1/2 and diminutive is x1/4)
Usurpator 05-22-07, 04:20 PM	About Retirement Why do you retire your characters? Maybe an odd question, but I'm interested because I haven't retired any of my characters yet. Of course, each hasn't fought more than a dozen fights, and some characters here have many more under their belt. I can't think of a reason yet why I would want to retire any of my characters.
McJarvis 05-22-07, 04:21 PM	Well, because there is a limit to the distance I will go to win. Play for fun first, to win second. Custom diplomacy allies, custom magic items, Pixie and Ghost gladiators, I simply dislike them so much I would not dream of using them to get the upper hand (edit: maybe only to prove a point about abusiveness) If you do want to 'abuse' some of the rules, I like it if people do so to make a normally non-viable build somewhat viable. If they just buff up an already powerful built by stacking questionable thing upon questionable thing (and combine it with questionable tactics besides) then I don't think it's fun anymore. I don't like to play with people who play just to win. Besides that, I love winning through tactics more than winning through superior builds. Fortunately, most people seem to be like this here at CoCo. That's more or less why I never got into Dip/HA allies[That and the equations being a turnoff in the first place]
Zevox 05-22-07, 04:21 PM	How much would a mithril chain shirt barding for your bat familiar cost, just out of curiosity? Bats are Diminutive. 1000 (Mithril) -300 (MW) = 700 (700 + 100) * 0.25 + 300 = 500 gp? (I'm thinking large is x4, medium is x2, small is x1, tiny is x1/2 and diminutive is x1/4) Medium an Small armor cost the same thing, so you're off there at least (for a non-humanoid, both would be x2). For smaller than that, I'm not sure what the rule is. I've looked in the past for some indication that the price pattern continues below small (i.e. prices get cheaper as things get smaller), but never found one, so they may all cost the same as with medium armor. Zevox
Yitzi 05-22-07, 04:22 PM	What do you mean "medium is X2, small is X1"? Medium and small are both X1. As for retirement, I've never retired a character yet, and probably only will if either the build isn't working as planned or a superior alternative becomes available due to rule decisions.
Rauul 05-22-07, 04:23 PM	Mercenarys would be a nice change.. But i would suggest that people with Diplomacy acually got their Skill skill number in % discount... With the ECL -2 they can use a level 2 mercenary at level 4.. Since ECL 3 can't have mercs.. Can a Player who hires a Merc that has a Defend/attack package get use out of that package?
Hirumajoe 05-22-07, 04:27 PM	Nevermind, I see.
Usurpator 05-22-07, 04:29 PM	Mercenarys would be a nice change.. But i would suggest that people with Diplomacy acually got their Skill skill number in % discount... I like that idea.
Zevox 05-22-07, 04:29 PM	About Retirement Why do you retire your characters? Maybe an odd question, but I'm interested because I haven't retired any of my characters yet. Of course, each hasn't fought more than a dozen fights, and some characters here have many more under their belt. I can't think of a reason yet why I would want to retire any of my characters. Various reasons in my case. In one instance it was because the character was much less successful than I hoped (Indrithia Celeth). In a couple of instances to make room for new characters due to the sheer number of characters I have I retired those I was least attached to or who were performing worst (Annalina Vale and Destra Stormwind). And in a few instances it was because I felt the character was poorly designed or just had no promise in either combat or RP (Aldyrr Starras, Sir Alboreth, and my first character Mindrel Avhost, whose post I emptied to use for my character backgrounds). Zevox
Macbrea 05-22-07, 04:31 PM	Retired Characters: Ok.. there are a bunch of different reasons. Lets look at my characters since I arrived here: Yari - Githzerai monk 1 - retired - built wrong for arena fights Mektos - Kobold Druid 3/Sorceror 3 - retired - 3FC would require me actually go through his 67 scrolls and decide what I would want to keep and loose. I may one day go back and reactivate him. Gorak - Orc Rogue 1 / Ranger 1 / Fighter 1 /Barbarian 1 - retired - 2 wins, 8 losses - Fun to play Marcus - Gnome Rogue 5/Assassin 2 - retired - gave up at the time on guild system. 3FC started retired him. He was complete a quest character at the time. He did no action that wasn't a quest for a guild. Varsh - Troglodyte - retired - Cat retired him as not viable So.. my current set of character are in my signature.
TelinArtho 05-22-07, 04:32 PM	Mercs don't have attack/defend packages (neither do allies through leadership or otherwise). As to using a Merc at level 4 - that's nixed until the quickstart guide is changed - the only allies you can have at ECL3 and 4 are a) class allies b) purchased animals Some mercs have varying degrees of the diplomacy skill as interaction (mostly to allow hiring the ally when you are opposed to their "ethical" or "roleplaying" reasons to be a merc). As to retiring characters, I've mostly retired builds that didn't work due to rules changes. Delaria was retired when the expendables cap was instituted. She could've been made to fit - but then she would've been a carbon copy of the then-new Anakala - so I didn't see the point. Anakala just got retired because of the diplomacy allies being removed - again because modifying her to not use them would make her extremely similar to Kraegin. Others were just builds that weren't fun for me (Ambellon the Calm, Faelto, Ilendil) while others didn't work in the arena at the time (Blaergh, Nycalik, Aquin). These last might be "reborn" with the new maps in place (in particular Nycalik...), but only when I get the time... I suppose a last category would go to the fallen hero(es) - Daeren is the only member of that club so far. These are the characters I build for a specific purpose and run them until they succeed or hit failure in that purpose. For those who don't know/don't remember - Daeren was my first "dragonslayer" (he wasn't built that way to start, but by ECL4 - he had already started on his journey).
McJarvis 05-22-07, 04:37 PM	About Retirement Why do you retire your characters? Maybe an odd question, but I'm interested because I haven't retired any of my characters yet. Of course, each hasn't fought more than a dozen fights, and some characters here have many more under their belt. I can't think of a reason yet why I would want to retire any of my characters. Sometimes it's due to changes in the rules: sometimes it's because of personal honor that I hold myself to on some characters. [Hardcore mode: you get beaten once and your character is dead!] Of course, I'm developing an easier one which comprises of having the character "Die" only if their PR drops below 1000.
McJarvis 05-22-07, 04:39 PM	Varsh - Troglodyte - retired - Cat retired him as not viable O_O. I thought you just got bored. Wow...
Macbrea 05-22-07, 04:41 PM	Nope.. Cat just removed him off the roster. He couldn't figure out how the character was a viable character. The problem is against another melee type he was. Against a magic missile user he wasn't. But that holds true of all melee types. For those of you wondering = Varsh. Note: no retirement statement on him and last edit date: Last edited by Macbrea : 02-07-07 at 06:27 PM.
MitzaVolchenko 05-22-07, 04:42 PM	What do you mean "medium is X2, small is X1"? Medium and small are both X1. As for retirement, I've never retired a character yet, and probably only will if either the build isn't working as planned or a superior alternative becomes available due to rule decisions. Sliver Firebug was retired because her LA was no longer worth it with the 3FC. Cat shot dwn the real reason I created her. I wanted pixie memory loss arrows. It was my plan to make people pre-buff a wanted poster of Sliver on the inside of their shield or on their chest. Or be faced with a greater invis archer plinking them until they lost their memory. Then she flutters up and in all earnestness tells them that they are in the wrong arena and wins with a bluff check :) I tried to keep playing her, but WotC took away her polymorph and the 3FC made all of her abilities once per three fights which in essence meant a Lvl2 sorceress against Lvl7's. Just wasn't worth it... Besides she defeated Donak, her archnemesis...nothing left to do but burn down forests and play pranks.
MindWandererB 05-22-07, 04:46 PM	I've only retired three characters: Bolrak, one of the two characters I developed my first week here, was just utterly inadequate beyond ECL 5; Sunstroke multiclassed so much that he couldn't do anything particularly well; Zero was pretty good until it was ruled that he couldn't use a bow. Since I never have more than three characters active in a week, I don't keep more than four active (in case there's a holdover). Right now I have six, because Aerryl was frozen and Silis was reserved for campaigns. I'll probably send Silis into active duty too, now that his campaignlord is gone and his party members have either retired or surpassed him in level, although I have to figure out what to do about his ally situation.
waywreth 05-22-07, 05:04 PM	About Retirement Why do you retire your characters? Maybe an odd question, but I'm interested because I haven't retired any of my characters yet. Of course, each hasn't fought more than a dozen fights, and some characters here have many more under their belt. I can't think of a reason yet why I would want to retire any of my characters. I've gone though no less than 20 charactes, some who have never even gotten to fight (that was rogue who going to go assassin/shadowdance, he just sucked at low levels imo). To me, it's all about making a viable character (or simply something I enjoy regardless of record like my current evoker). I like to try combinations that I haven't tried yet, and one in awhile try a prestige class that no one has tried (my failed thrallherd). And for me... I hate (despise!) losing caster levels. Still haven't figured out how to make a cleric that doesn't suck at low levels though...
Zevox 05-22-07, 05:13 PM	Still haven't figured out how to make a cleric that doesn't suck at low levels though... Give it Fighter levels and a mount? :P Seriously, I'd tend to think its harder to come up with a Cleric that does suck at low levels than it is to come up with one that doesn't. Its a pretty powerful class. Zevox
Salrantol 05-22-07, 05:14 PM	I've retired all of my characters twice, due to RL concerns taking me away from the arena. I retired my first two characters because they were hopeless in the arena. (Salrantol (:confused: bard/rogue/fighter?) and Horthek (:confused: 20 ft. speed?)) I retired Laffinger the Slight because he was built to exploit the original, poorly-written Forgery rules to bring in a Dire Wolf at ECL 3, before Cat realized that his English in the Forgery rules was wrong, and Felicity Lanksharm, who was built as a modified Laffinger to try to use the fixed Forgery rules and I discovered that it just wasn't worth it. I retired Meinrad the Many-Fisted, because, despite the fact that I think he was probably the best ECL 3 gladiator I've ever seen, and undoubtedly the best I ever built, his damage output didn't scale fast enough to enjoy continued success. I retired Barak Brigandslayer because he could not be adapted to the expendables cap--the separation of UMD & UPD was hard enough on him. The biggest reason I would give for retiring characters is that it keeps the roster clean. Only characters that people can reasonably expect to face should be on the roster, so they can somewhat plan ahead on whom they may have to fight.
Salrantol 05-22-07, 05:35 PM	What are the rules about obtaining partially consumed wands? Are they forbidden? Do they cost credits? Are they readily available?
Zevox 05-22-07, 05:41 PM	What are the rules about obtaining partially consumed wands? Are they forbidden? Do they cost credits? Are they readily available? Forbidden, due to the fact that they'd essentially make scrolls obsolete (a 1 charge wand is always cheaper than a scroll). Not even available via credits. You either get the wand fully charged or not at all. Zevox
Usurpator 05-22-07, 05:44 PM	Heya, What do you think of Flash? He is not an entirely serious build, just for the comedy factor, and because I liked to make a kinda weird character. Besides, he's probably going to annoy Pitlords a lot. And thanks for all the replies about reasons for retirement, enjoyed reading them.
MindWandererB 05-22-07, 05:48 PM	Heya, What do you think of Flash? He is not an entirely serious build, just for the comedy factor, and because I liked to make a kinda weird character. Besides, he's probably going to annoy Pitlords a lot. And thanks for all the replies about reasons for retirement, enjoyed reading them. I was about to point out that a Rod of Wonder has too high a caster level for you--but then I noticed that it's not a charged item in 3.5! Who knew?
Usurpator 05-22-07, 05:52 PM	I was about to point out that a Rod of Wonder has too high a caster level for you--but then I noticed that it's not a charged item in 3.5! Who knew? Hey, Flash needs some way to kill his opponent, if it had, say, 100 charges, it would probably run out on his 3rd or 4th fight :P
Sjiggie 05-22-07, 05:59 PM	Now I see why he is an annoyance to pitlords man what are you trying to do with that rod hope you get lucky every time you use it :P
hogarth 05-22-07, 06:42 PM	How much would a mithril chain shirt barding for your bat familiar cost, just out of curiosity? Bats are Diminutive. 1000 (Mithril) -300 (MW) = 700 (700 + 100) * 0.25 + 300 = 500 gp? (I'm thinking large is x4, medium is x2, small is x1, tiny is x1/2 and diminutive is x1/4) Here's the chart: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#armorForUnusualCreatures So a tiny (or smaller) non-humanoid is x1 cost, x1/10 weight i.e. 1000 gp.
Hirumajoe 05-22-07, 06:48 PM	Here's the chart: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#armorForUnusualCreatures So a tiny (or smaller) non-humanoid is x1 cost, x1/10 weight i.e. 1000 gp. Wow, thats so not worth it. The AC bonus on Tiny and smaller creatures is halved. And looking at the weight, the bat wouldn't be able to fly anyways with a 0.75 lb light category... Edit: In regards to Flash, the Wonderdog. I'd put off the skill focus: bluff feat in order to grab Weapon Finesse. Since you're not going to be able to use the Ambush skill package until ECL 7 anyways (since it requires 5 ranks in the skill). It buys you a pretty good chance of hitting actually. Even if your primary attack method is the rod. :) Edit2: Flash seems to have an error in his skills, you list 7 ranks in Sense Motive, but don't account for them (in addition, you only have 28 skills, if you include the sense motive, you've used 35).
SauroGrenom 05-22-07, 07:27 PM	Does things like Spell Focus modify the DC on Spell Like Abilities?
TheMagister 05-22-07, 07:28 PM	Lessee - I've only retired two of my characters - Sdentch and Torgirr. Torgirr I retired because he was my first character. A TWF/Rapidshot/light hammer thrower -- dwarf. Not exactly a winning build in the CoCo, but he was different. I still haven't really seen a super-successful thrown weapon build here (not counting produce flame druids). Sdentch was retired because at ECL 10 she just couldn't compete. She had great damage output if she could pin you down. Without the intelligence score necessary to gain improved trip, she was stuck with Stand Still (which I still think is a great feat), and it was damned amazing how lucky opponents got on their reflex saves. Were I to make a Sdentch-clone, I'd make her a reach weapon + enlarge person + combat reflexes junky. Ever since I've seen El Rapido (that masterpiece of strength mods), my fingers have been itchin', but I won't steal Templer10's thunder. Maybe a higher dex ogre? Hmmm... Anyhow - I've only retired characters when they become non-viable, and I only create characters that don't emulate something I've already seen. Even Tessero (though he currently looks like a generic psychic warrior tripper) is slated to use that level 5 Warmind ability Sweeping Strike to trip multiple opponents and then power attack them with deep impact. I think he might actually outdamage a wizard's fireball, on average. We'll see. I initially made him to clean out ally armies. Now that that has been partially dealt with, I dunno how glorious he's gonna be. :) TM
templer10 05-22-07, 07:46 PM	Ever since I've seen El Rapido (that masterpiece of strength mods), my fingers have been itchin', but I won't steal Templer10's thunder. iam not really sure what iam going to be doing with El rapido - he already lost more then all my other chars combined sigh - maybe i just have bad luck on melee guys. anyway- cant really activate him any time soon - need to let some of my other monsters level out of ECL 6 - 3 of them Active in the same week is a bit much, 4 is ridiculos. on another note - iam thinking about a super grappler build using a were dire weasel monk and i was wondering - can you use it's attach ability and still do grapple checks for dmg? if so - FoB for damage after hitting with bite attack.... you die pretty quick.
TheMagister 05-22-07, 07:51 PM	:love: :love: :love: :clap:
Zevox 05-22-07, 07:51 PM	...didn't Macbrea submit a character like that for the UnCon competition? Zevox
TheMagister 05-22-07, 07:52 PM	Oh, yeah! I remember that!
Macbrea 05-22-07, 08:01 PM	As soon as I finish downloading the character thread I will link it. I didn't think it would take this long.. :P
templer10 05-22-07, 08:06 PM	As soon as I finish downloading the character thread I will link it. I didn't think it would take this long.. :P i wasnt around then so didnt know that - well just prove that great minds think alike. and about my question?
MindWandererB 05-22-07, 08:07 PM	Yeah, so do I. Its one flaw was a total lack of survivability--low HP, no AC to speak of, not great saves, and not an amazing speed. If it managed to catch someone, they'd be in a world of hurt-assuming they couldn't kill him in a round or two with his AC in the low teens. Edit: It doesn't say what kind of action it is for the weasel to remain attached, but it looks like it doesn't get any other actions in the round, and is considered grappling (so it can't attack with multiple weapons).
templer10 05-22-07, 08:10 PM	Yeah, so do I. Its one flaw was a total lack of survivability--low HP, no AC to speak of, not great saves, and not an amazing speed. If it managed to catch someone, they'd be in a world of hurt-assuming they couldn't kill him in a round or two with his AC in the low teens. hmm what iam working on has not so good HP - around 40-50 but it has AC in high 20's - if i really went crazy and got even more LA i could it get to low- mid 30's but that concept will really have to wait until ECL 10+ open up (and i get enough credits) since it really need ECL 9-10 to be actually viable.
Guildmaster (WAR) 05-22-07, 08:12 PM	Shucks, it's a monk, ain't it? And a lycanthrope to boot, which provides free natural armor! Use the standard stuff (potion of mage armor, tattoo of force screen, ring of protection) and that AC shouldn't be a problem at all!
Erithmu 05-22-07, 08:15 PM	I like how WAR's signature still has a link to the EYE thread ...
MindWandererB 05-22-07, 08:17 PM	I like how WAR's signature still has a link to the EYE thread ... At this point, it might just as well.
Macbrea 05-22-07, 08:17 PM	AC doesn't come out too bad.. This is before I tweaked it for UNCON. UnCon thread has been archived. Larktin I think in my final version I built it for a 3FC instead. So, it's expendables were alittle different.
Guildmaster (WAR) 05-22-07, 09:12 PM	All done. Took out the EYE link and added McJarvis as the asst. guildmaster. I had signatures turned off (more posts per page). :) TM
MitzaVolchenko 05-22-07, 09:39 PM	Okay I need final commitments and character choices (if you are giving me options say so) for my campaign. I need to get everyone within 1 ECL of each other which is looking like 6-7 but could still come out 5-6. If you have time restrictions on when we start, please include those. PM these things to me as I could easily miss them here. It is a basic adventure kind of thing, no formal guild goals or the like (though if you are an EHTC or WAR member you may want to think about it as a possible strengthener for the potential treaty between those two guilds).
NiQil 05-22-07, 09:49 PM	Okay I need final commitments and character choices (if you are giving me options say so) for my campaign. I need to get everyone within 1 ECL of each other which is looking like 6-7 but could still come out 5-6. If you have time restrictions on when we start, please include those. PM these things to me as I could easily miss them here. It is a basic adventure kind of thing, no formal guild goals or the like (though if you are an EHTC or WAR member you may want to think about it as a possible strengthener for the potential treaty between those two guilds). Garet Jax is ready....he's set at ECL 5 right now, but I can easily bump him wherever he needs to be. Just let me know.
hogarth 05-22-07, 09:50 PM	Okay I need final commitments and character choices (if you are giving me options say so) for my campaign. I need to get everyone within 1 ECL of each other which is looking like 6-7 but could still come out 5-6. If you have time restrictions on when we start, please include those. PM these things to me as I could easily miss them here. It is a basic adventure kind of thing, no formal guild goals or the like (though if you are an EHTC or WAR member you may want to think about it as a possible strengthener for the potential treaty between those two guilds). Could you say who you have so far?
TheMagister 05-22-07, 10:04 PM	Tessero and Cupid are ECL 6 now, and we're ready (kinda). Give us the option to replenish stuff after our first encounter and we're golden. ... Four days to finish crafting that adamantine full plate would be killer, too. Gotta love portable holes with forges stored inside them. MAN I loved the look on my DMs face...
NiQil 05-22-07, 10:06 PM	Tessero and Cupid are ECL 6 now, and we're ready (kinda). Give us the option to replenish stuff after our first encounter and we're golden. ... Four days to finish crafting that adamantine full plate would be killer, too. Gotta love portable holes with forges stored inside them. MAN I loved the look on my DMs face... Sounds like I should probably go ahead and bump Garet to ECL 6...
Vathelokai 05-22-07, 10:50 PM	I have a character that just finished the 3FC, and is about 50xp short of leveling. Can I have him fight this week and then craft for the remainder of the cycle? Or can I have him craft mid-cycle and he would just pick up at week 2 when he begins fighting again? Thanks, I do believe you can run the character through a regular quest but at a lower EL. Would get you where you want to go I think. Well, because there is a limit to the distance I will go to win. Play for fun first, to win second.I'll second that. About Retirement Why do you retire your characters? Maybe an odd question, but I'm interested because I haven't retired any of my characters yet. Of course, each hasn't fought more than a dozen fights, and some characters here have many more under their belt. I can't think of a reason yet why I would want to retire any of my characters. I've only got two (listed in my sig) Jodan was the first character I made, and I made him quite badly. At the rate I was using expendables, he could probably have been the first gladiator to actually go broke. I put him on hold for a while to think about rebuilding him, but lost interest. Hassan was built for a different set of CoCo rules. He had lots of non combat skills for guild activities and an infinite pile of expendables. There were a season where a rule changed and effected him every couple of weeks. A lot of his build became nerfed (expendables) or useless (guilds). I got frustrated with it and decided to scrap him. I might build another UMD/UPD type some day. [Cat] couldn't figure out how the character was a viable character. The problem is against another melee type he was. Against a magic missile user he wasn't. But that holds true of all melee types. For those of you wondering = Varsh. I for one would like to see Varsh come back. I'd even be willing to donate a few credits if you'd rather start him up with that class level he was working on. Heya, What do you think of Flash? He is not an entirely serious build, just for the comedy factor, and because I liked to make a kinda weird character. Besides, he's probably going to annoy Pitlords a lot. And thanks for all the replies about reasons for retirement, enjoyed reading them. I love him. I've been thinking about something similiar, but the rod of wonder takes the cake. If pitlords are crying about him, then I'll volunteer to run all his fights.
NiQil 05-22-07, 10:55 PM	And here is Garet Jax, now at ECL 6, awaiting Mitza's campaign. Critique welcome. Garet Jax Type: Humanoid Gender: Male Race: Wild Elf Size: Medium Height: 5'5" Weight: 150 lbs Age: 125 Alignment: Chaotic Neutral Classes: Ranger 6 Experience: 15,500/21,000 Attributes STR 14 (+2) [04 pts] [12 Base + 2 Enhancement] DEX 18 (+4) [10 pts] [16 Base + 2 Racial] CON 15 (+2) [06 pts] [14 Base + 1 Advancement] INT 14 (+2) [10 pts] [16 Base - 2 Racial] WIS 14 (+2) [06 pts] CHA 08 (-1) [00 pts] Miscellaneous Statistics Hit Points: 42 [6 HD] [8 Rgr + (4.5 Rgr x 5) + (2 Con x 6)] Armor Class (Normal): 20 [10 Base + 4 Dex + 6 Armor] Armor Class (Touch): 14 [10 Base + 4 Dex] Armor Class (Flat-Footed): 16 [10 Base + 6 Armor] Initiative: +4 [4 Dex] Base Attack Bonus: +6/+1 [6 Rgr] Grapple: +8 [6 BAB + 2 Str] Speed: 30 ft [30 Base] Weight Carried: 53.00 lbs, Light encumbrance [0-58 (Light), 59-116 (Medium), 117-175 (Heavy)] Saves Fortitude: +7 [5 Rgr + 2 Con] Reflex: +9 [5 Rgr + 4 Dex] Will: +4 [+2 racial bonus vs enchantment spells and effects] [2 Rgr + 2 Wis] Melee Attacks Adamantine Handaxe: +11/+6, 1d6+2 (x3), Slashing [6 BAB + 4 Dex + 1 Enhancement] Masterwork Alchemical Silver Handaxe: +11/+6, 1d6+1 (x3), Slashing [6 BAB + 4 Dex + 1 Enhancement] Masterwork Cold Iron Handaxe: +11/+6, 1d6+2 (x3), Slashing [6 BAB + 4 Dex + 1 Enhancement] TWF Adamantine Handaxe: +9/+9/+4/+4, 1d6+2 (x3)/1d6+1 (x3), Slashing/Slashing [6 BAB + 4 Dex + 1 Enhancement - 2 Feat] TWF Masterwork Alchemical Silver Handaxe: +9/+9/+4/+4, 1d6+1 (x3)/1d6 (x3), Slashing/Slashing [6 BAB + 4 Dex + 1 Enhancement - 2 Feat] TWF Masterwork Cold Iron Handaxe: +9/+9/+4/+4, 1d6+2 (x3)/1d6+1 (x3), Slashing/Slashing [6 BAB + 4 Dex + 1 Enhancement - 2 Feat] Ranged Attacks Darkwood Composite Longbow (+2 Str): +11/+6, 1d8+2 (x3), Piercing, Range 110 ft [-1 damage if using silver arrows] [6 BAB + 4 Dex + 1 Enhancement] RS Darkwood Composite Longbow (+2 Str): +9/+9/+4, 1d8+2 (x3)/1d8+2 (x3), Piercing/Piercing, Range 110 ft [-1 damage if using silver arrows] [6 BAB + 4 Dex + 1 Enhancement] Combat Abilities Combat Style (Archery): Treated as having the feat Rapid Shot Improved Combat Style (Archery): Treated as having the feat Manyshot Favored Enemy (Magical Beast): +4 on damage, +4 on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot and Survival checks Favored Enemy (Animal): +2 on damage, +2 on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot and Survival checks Immunity: Immune to sleep spells and effects Divine Spells Prepared Level 1 [DC 14]: Resist Energy, Resist Energy Level 2 [DC 15]: Level 3 [DC 16]: Level 4 [DC 17]: Spell Levels Available Per Fight: 1/1/0 [1 Total Spell Levels / 3, rounded up] Total Spell Levels: 2 [(2 x 1) + (0 x 2) + (0 x 3) + (0 x 4)] Caster Level: 3 Feats Rgr 1: Track Lvl 1: Two-Weapon Fighting Rgr 3: Endurance Lvl 3: Weapon Finesse Lvl 6: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting Lvl 9: Iron Will Lvl 12: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting Lvl 15: Weapon Focus (Handaxe) Lvl 18: Weapon Focus (Longbow) Skills Balance: +4 [0 Ranks (0 Rgr) + 4 Dex] Climb: +2 [0 Ranks (0 Rgr) + 2 Str] Craft (Armorsmithing): +10 [6 Ranks (6 Rgr) + 2 Int + 2 Circumstance] Craft (Bowmaking): +10 [6 Ranks (6 Rgr) + 2 Int + 2 Circumstance] Craft (Weaponsmithing: +10 [6 Ranks (6 Rgr) + 2 Int + 2 Circumstance] Hide: +12 [8 Ranks (9 Rgr) + 4 Dex] Jump: +2 [0 Ranks (0 Rgr) + 2 Str] Knowledge (Dungeoneering): +3 [1 Ranks (1 Rgr) + 2 Int] Knowledge (Geography): +3 [1 Ranks (1 Rgr) + 2 Int] Knowledge (Nature): +3 [1 Ranks (1 Rgr) + 2 Int] Listen: +13 [9 Ranks (9 Rgr) + 2 Wis + 2 Racial] Move Silently: +13 [9 Ranks (9 Rgr) + 4 Dex] Search: +11 [7 Ranks (7 Rgr) + 2 Int + 2 Racial] Spot: +13 [9 Ranks (9 Rgr) + 2 Wis + 2 Racial] Survival: +11 [9 Ranks (9 Rgr) + 2 Wis] Languages: Common, Sylvan, Elven and Draconic [2 Racial + 2 Int] Total Skill Points: 72 [72 Rgr] Armor Check Penalty: 0 [0 Armor] General Tactics Always make use of relevant skills/abilities for given situations. Always stow equipment; never drop it. Never surrender. Use any and all equipment available whenever necessary. Prefight Actions None Equipment Carried 001 +2 Mithral Chain Shirt [10.00 lbs] 001 Adamantine Handaxe [03.00 lbs] 001 Adamantine Handaxe [03.00 lbs] 020 Alchemical Silver Arrows [03.00 lbs] 060 Arrows [09.00 lbs] 010 Chalk [00.00 lbs] 020 Cold Iron Arrows [03.00 lbs] 001 Darkwood Composite Longbow (+2 Str) [03.00 lbs] 001 Darkwood Composite Longbow (+2 Str) [03.00 lbs] 001 Flint & Steel [00.00 lbs] 001 Gauntlets of Ogre Power [04.00 lbs] 001 Holly & Mistletoe [00.00 lbs] 001 Masterwork Alchemical Silver Handaxe [03.00 lbs] 001 Masterwork Alchemical Silver Handaxe [03.00 lbs] 001 Masterwork Cold Iron Handaxe [03.00 lbs] 001 Masterwork Cold Iron Handaxe [03.00 lbs] 001 Signal Whistle [00.00 lbs] 001 Spell Component Pouch [02.00 lbs] Expendables Unused None Equipment Stored On Illdatch Adventure Results xxxxxxx in (adventure name) [0,000.00 XP] [0,000.00 gp] Arena Results Record: 00 W/00 L xxxxx vs xxxxxxxxxx (xxx) [0,000.00 XP] [0,000.00 gp] Allies Type: Animal Gender: Female Race: Bactrian Camel Size: Large Alignment: Neutral Attributes STR 19 (+4) [18 Base + 1 Animal Companion] DEX 17 (+3) [16 Base + 1 Animal Companion] CON 16 (+3) INT 02 (-5) WIS 12 (+1) [11 Base + 1 Advancement] CHA 04 (-3) Miscellaneous Statistics Hit Points: 37 [5 HD] [(4.5 Ani x 5) + (3 Con x 5)] Armor Class (Normal): 17 [10 Base + 3 Dex + 4 Armor + 1 Natural - 1 Size] Armor Class (Touch): 12 [10 Base + 3 Dex - 1 Size] Armor Class (Flat-Footed): 14 [10 Base + 4 Armor + 1 Natural - 1 Size] Initiative: +3 [3 Dex] Base Attack Bonus: +3 [3 Ani] Grapple: +11 [3 BAB + 4 Str + 4 Size] Speed: 40 ft [40 Base] Weight Carried: 229.00 lbs, Light encumbrance [0-348 (Light), 349-699 (Medium), 700-1050 (Heavy)] Saves Fortitude: +7 [4 Ani + 3 Con] Reflex: +7 [4 Ani + 3 Dex] Will: +2 [1 Ani + 1 Wis] Melee Attacks Bite: +1, 1d4+2 (x2) [3 BAB + 4 Str - 1 Size - 5 Secondary Attack] Combat Abilities Come Down Guard Heel Seek Stay Track Work Feats Ani 1: Alertness Ani 3: Endurance Skills Balance: +2 [0 Ranks (0 Ani) + 3 Dex - 1 ACP] Climb: +3 [0 Ranks (0 Ani) + 4 Str - 1 ACP] Hide: +2 [0 Ranks (0 Ani) + 3 Dex - 1 ACP] Jump: +7 [0 Ranks (0 Ani) + 4 Str + 4 Unnamed - 1 ACP] Listen: +7 [3 Ranks (4 Ani) + 1 Wis + 2 Feat] Move Silently: +2 [0 Ranks (0 Ani) + 3 Dex - 1 ACP] Spot: +7 [3 Ranks (4 Ani) + 1 Wis + 2 Feat] Languages: N/A [N/A] Total Skill Points: 8 [8 Ani] Armor Check Penalty: -1 [-1 Armor] General Tactics Flee Equipment Carried 080 Alchemical Silver Arrows [12.00 lbs] 440 Arrows [66.00 lbs] 001 Bit and Bridle [01.00 lbs] 080 Cold Iron Arrows [12.00 lbs] 001 Crowbar [05.00 lbs] 001 Fishing Net [05.00 lbs] 001 Hammer [02.00 lbs] 001 Masterwork Artisan's Tools (Armorsmithing) [05.00 lbs] 001 Masterwork Artisan's Tools (Bowmaking) [05.00 lbs] 001 Masterwork Artisan's Tools (Weaponsmithing) [05.00 lbs] 001 Masterwork Chain Shirt Barding [50.00 lbs] 001 Pack Saddle [20.00 lbs] 010 Sacks [05.00 lbs] 001 Shovel [08.00 lbs] 005 Waterskins [20.00 lbs] Miscellaneous Link Share Spells Evasion Low-light vision Scent Miscellaneous Simple Weapons Martial Weapons Light Armor Shields Wild Empathy Animal Companion Spells Low-light vision Elven Weapons Secret door search 001 +2 Mithral Chain ShirtC (Creation) [0,550.00 gp + 4,000.00 gp enchantment] 001 Adamantine HandaxeC (Creation) [1,503.00 gp] 001 Adamantine HandaxeC (Creation) [1,503.00 gp] 100 Alchemical Silver ArrowsC (Creation) [0,102.50 gp] 500 ArrowsC (Creation) [0,012.50 gp] 001 Bit and Bridle [0,002.00 gp] 010 Chalk [0,000.10 gp] 100 Cold Iron ArrowsC (Creation) [0,005.00 gp] 001 Crowbar [0,002.00 gp] 001 Darkwood Composite Longbow (+2 Str)C (Creation) [0,315.00 gp] 001 Darkwood Composite Longbow (+2 Str)C (Creation) [0,315.00 gp] 001 Fishing Net [0,004.00 gp] 001 Flint & Steel [0,000.10 gp] 001 Gauntlets of Ogre Power [4,000.00 gp] 001 Hammer [0,000.50 gp] 001 Holly & Mistletoe [0,000.00 gp] 001 Masterwork Alchemical Silver HandaxeC (Creation) [0,163.00 gp] 001 Masterwork Alchemical Silver HandaxeC (Creation) [0,163.00 gp] 001 Masterwork Artisan's Tools (Armorsmithing) [0,055.00 gp] 001 Masterwork Artisan's Tools (Bowmaking) [0,055.00 gp] 001 Masterwork Artisan's Tools (Weaponsmithing) [0,055.00 gp] 001 Masterwork Cold Iron HandaxeC (Creation) [0,156.00 gp] 001 Masterwork Cold Iron HandaxeC (Creation) [0,156.00 gp] 001 Masterwork Chain Shirt BardingC (Creation) [0,275.00 gp] 001 Pack Saddle [0,015.00 gp] 010 Sacks [0,001.00 gp] 001 Shovel [0,002.00 gp] 001 Signal Whistle [0,000.80 gp] 001 Spell Component Pouch [0,000.50 gp] 001 Waterskins [0,005.00 gp] ----- Starting: 13,500.00 gp Battles: 0.00 gp Sales: + 0.00 gp --------------- Total Earned: 13,500.00 gp Purchases: - 13,417.00 gp --------------- Total Left: 83.00 gp ----- Time Between Fights: N/A Prebuffs/Ongoing Effects: xxxxx (time remaining), xxxxx (time remaining) Items Used: xxxxx, xxxxx Spells/Power Points Used: xxxxx x/day Abilities Used: xxxxx Free Activity: xxxxx Time Between Fights: ? hrs Prebuffs/Ongoing Effects: xxxxx (time remaining), xxxxx (time remaining) Items Used: xxxxx, xxxxx Spells/Power Points Used: xxxxx x/day Abilities Used: xxxxx Free Activity: xxxxx Time Between Fights: ? hrs Prebuffs/Ongoing Effects: xxxxx (time remaining), xxxxx (time remaining) Items Used: xxxxx, xxxxx Spells/Power Points Used: xxxxx x/day Abilities Used: xxxxx Free Activity: xxxxx Garet is by nature a wanderer. He travels where the winds take him, with or without purpose. He is always on the lookout for the next challenge. The Early Years Garet grew up as a part of several small elven communities that made their homes in the foothills of a small mountain range. His own family often travelled between the communities, most often in response to a request for his father's hand at a job. His father was a successful blacksmith/armorsmith/weaponsmith, while his mother was a bowyer and fletcher. They had their own small family business, but often travelled to the surrounding communities when there was a need. Garet spent much of his early years either in the forge, or travelling to and fro. He learned the family trade, and soon became quite proficient himself. He probably would have eventually taken it over, were it not for the constant need to prove himself. He was always seeking a new challenge. Whether it was wrestling with other kids his age, or archery tests, or tracking small game, Garet had a drive to prove himself the best. Garet's life was peaceful and happy for the most part, although he became complacent and bored as he grew older. To put it bluntly, he had met every challenge he could meet in his homeland. He began to travel farther and farther afield, staying away from home more and more. He used the skills he had learned as an adolescent and perfected them in the surrounding mountains and lower plains. He would often stay away for weeks at a time, just to prove to himself that he could. He would meet travelers on his forays, and would hear stories of other portions of the world he had never seen. He would trade his expertise for the ability to learn new things, and lended aid where he could. He even helped an old goldhunter birth a camel he had brought with him, and was rewarded with an infant camel of his own. He raised it the best way he new how, and it soon became is closest companion. However, not really knowing much about camels, he raised him in the manner with which he was familiar, being that of a horse. As such, the camel is camel in name only, while acting like he could charge into combat or prance in a parade with equal ease. This has caused Garet no end of amusement, as well as a fair share of trouble. The Present Garet, now a young adult, has left home permanently with his friend Ildatch and is now seeking out new challenges in the world. He has not found anything that he has not been able to overcome as of yet, but he keeps looking. He is now an accomplished archer and fighter, as well as a woodsman of some renown. He makes his way as a guide to the uninitiated, or as a bounty hunter to the victimized. He has found himself in the city of Gladius, where it is said all manner of tests await those strong enough to bear their weight...
Macbrea 05-22-07, 10:57 PM	I for one would like to see Varsh come back. I'd even be willing to donate a few credits if you'd rather start him up with that class level he was working on. Well, I never bothered to complain loudly to cat about it. I was charged 5 credits to start him at 4th then after two weeks. He was removed from the roster. I might be able to argue for myself to get him back on the roster at 5th as viable at a cost to me of another 5 credits but that is completely upto MWB. I would of course be adding a level of fighter probably to him. So, that he could use all his equipment. Cat's argument is he couldn't see how someone at -16 to hit 3 times was viable. He couldn't see how Varsh could possibly win against a 4th level character. I informed him that the average 4th level character would need a 20 and only get 1 swings. It was a fair match up.. Both needed 20s.
hogarth 05-22-07, 10:57 PM	Heya, What do you think of Flash? He is not an entirely serious build, just for the comedy factor, and because I liked to make a kinda weird character. Besides, he's probably going to annoy Pitlords a lot. Flash...wasn't that Roscoe P. Coltrane's dog on "The Dukes of Hazzard"? I had been mulling over the idea of a blink dog rogue/assassin (Blink is great for sneak attacking), but I didn't get too far with it. Just a question -- where is he holding the Rod of Wonder? And how is he speaking the command word?
MitzaVolchenko 05-22-07, 10:59 PM	Could you say who you have so far? I have NiQil with a ranger-definite and will level to whatever the EL of the campaign ends up at. Cupid and Tessero are new possibilities ot the list. Sjiggie has a proposed character in as do Zevox and Rauul. I need to check ECL's and availabilities. If there is enough interest, I will run two campaigns. I have four set up to run for whenever, so Imay split people and shift them around.
Rauul 05-22-07, 11:00 PM	And here is Garet Jax, now at ECL 6, awaiting Mitza's campaign. Critique welcome. Garet Jax Type: Humanoid Gender: Male Race: Wild Elf Size: Medium Height: 5'5" Weight: 150 lbs Age: 125 Alignment: Chaotic Neutral Classes: Ranger 6 Experience: 15,500/21,000 Attributes STR 14 (+2) [04 pts] [12 Base + 2 Enhancement] DEX 18 (+4) [10 pts] [16 Base + 2 Racial] CON 15 (+2) [06 pts] [14 Base + 1 Advancement] INT 14 (+2) [10 pts] [16 Base - 2 Racial] WIS 14 (+2) [06 pts] CHA 08 (-1) [00 pts] Miscellaneous Statistics Hit Points: 42 [6 HD] [8 Rgr + (4.5 Rgr x 5) + (2 Con x 6)] Armor Class (Normal): 20 [10 Base + 4 Dex + 6 Armor] Armor Class (Touch): 14 [10 Base + 4 Dex] Armor Class (Flat-Footed): 16 [10 Base + 6 Armor] Initiative: +4 [4 Dex] Base Attack Bonus: +6/+1 [6 Rgr] Grapple: +8 [6 BAB + 2 Str] Speed: 30 ft [30 Base] Weight Carried: 53.00 lbs, Light encumbrance [0-58 (Light), 59-116 (Medium), 117-175 (Heavy)] Saves Fortitude: +7 [5 Rgr + 2 Con] Reflex: +9 [5 Rgr + 4 Dex] Will: +4 [+2 racial bonus vs enchantment spells and effects] [2 Rgr + 2 Wis] Melee Attacks Adamantine Handaxe: +11/+6, 1d6+2 (x3), Slashing [6 BAB + 4 Dex + 1 Enhancement] Masterwork Alchemical Silver Handaxe: +11/+6, 1d6+1 (x3), Slashing [6 BAB + 4 Dex + 1 Enhancement] Masterwork Cold Iron Handaxe: +11/+6, 1d6+2 (x3), Slashing [6 BAB + 4 Dex + 1 Enhancement] TWF Adamantine Handaxe: +9/+9/+4/+4, 1d6+2 (x3)/1d6+1 (x3), Slashing/Slashing [6 BAB + 4 Dex + 1 Enhancement - 2 Feat] TWF Masterwork Alchemical Silver Handaxe: +9/+9/+4/+4, 1d6+1 (x3)/1d6 (x3), Slashing/Slashing [6 BAB + 4 Dex + 1 Enhancement - 2 Feat] TWF Masterwork Cold Iron Handaxe: +9/+9/+4/+4, 1d6+2 (x3)/1d6+1 (x3), Slashing/Slashing [6 BAB + 4 Dex + 1 Enhancement - 2 Feat] Ranged Attacks Darkwood Composite Longbow (+2 Str): +11/+6, 1d8+2 (x3), Piercing, Range 110 ft [-1 damage if using silver arrows] [6 BAB + 4 Dex + 1 Enhancement] RS Darkwood Composite Longbow (+2 Str): +9/+9/+4, 1d8+2 (x3)/1d8+2 (x3), Piercing/Piercing, Range 110 ft [-1 damage if using silver arrows] [6 BAB + 4 Dex + 1 Enhancement] Combat Abilities Combat Style (Archery): Treated as having the feat Rapid Shot Improved Combat Style (Archery): Treated as having the feat Manyshot Favored Enemy (Magical Beast): +4 on damage, +4 on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot and Survival checks Favored Enemy (Animal): +2 on damage, +2 on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot and Survival checks Immunity: Immune to sleep spells and effects Divine Spells Prepared Level 1 [DC 14]: Resist Energy, Resist Energy Level 2 [DC 15]: Level 3 [DC 16]: Level 4 [DC 17]: Spell Levels Available Per Fight: 1/1/0 [1 Total Spell Levels / 3, rounded up] Total Spell Levels: 2 [(2 x 1) + (0 x 2) + (0 x 3) + (0 x 4)] Caster Level: 3 Feats Rgr 1: Track Lvl 1: Two-Weapon Fighting Rgr 3: Endurance Lvl 3: Weapon Finesse Lvl 6: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting Lvl 9: Iron Will Lvl 12: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting Lvl 15: Weapon Focus (Handaxe) Lvl 18: Weapon Focus (Longbow) Skills Balance: +4 [0 Ranks (0 Rgr) + 4 Dex] Climb: +2 [0 Ranks (0 Rgr) + 2 Str] Craft (Armorsmithing): +10 [6 Ranks (6 Rgr) + 2 Int + 2 Circumstance] Craft (Bowmaking): +10 [6 Ranks (6 Rgr) + 2 Int + 2 Circumstance] Craft (Weaponsmithing: +10 [6 Ranks (6 Rgr) + 2 Int + 2 Circumstance] Hide: +12 [8 Ranks (9 Rgr) + 4 Dex] Jump: +2 [0 Ranks (0 Rgr) + 2 Str] Knowledge (Dungeoneering): +3 [1 Ranks (1 Rgr) + 2 Int] Knowledge (Geography): +3 [1 Ranks (1 Rgr) + 2 Int] Knowledge (Nature): +3 [1 Ranks (1 Rgr) + 2 Int] Listen: +13 [9 Ranks (9 Rgr) + 2 Wis + 2 Racial] Move Silently: +13 [9 Ranks (9 Rgr) + 4 Dex] Search: +11 [7 Ranks (7 Rgr) + 2 Int + 2 Racial] Spot: +13 [9 Ranks (9 Rgr) + 2 Wis + 2 Racial] Survival: +11 [9 Ranks (9 Rgr) + 2 Wis] Languages: Common, Sylvan, Elven and Draconic [2 Racial + 2 Int] Total Skill Points: 72 [72 Rgr] Armor Check Penalty: 0 [0 Armor] General Tactics Always make use of relevant skills/abilities for given situations. Always stow equipment; never drop it. Never surrender. Use any and all equipment available whenever necessary. Prefight Actions None Equipment Carried 001 +2 Mithral Chain Shirt [10.00 lbs] 001 Adamantine Handaxe [03.00 lbs] 001 Adamantine Handaxe [03.00 lbs] 020 Alchemical Silver Arrows [03.00 lbs] 060 Arrows [09.00 lbs] 010 Chalk [00.00 lbs] 020 Cold Iron Arrows [03.00 lbs] 001 Darkwood Composite Longbow (+2 Str) [03.00 lbs] 001 Darkwood Composite Longbow (+2 Str) [03.00 lbs] 001 Flint & Steel [00.00 lbs] 001 Gauntlets of Ogre Power [04.00 lbs] 001 Holly & Mistletoe [00.00 lbs] 001 Masterwork Alchemical Silver Handaxe [03.00 lbs] 001 Masterwork Alchemical Silver Handaxe [03.00 lbs] 001 Masterwork Cold Iron Handaxe [03.00 lbs] 001 Masterwork Cold Iron Handaxe [03.00 lbs] 001 Signal Whistle [00.00 lbs] 001 Spell Component Pouch [02.00 lbs] Expendables Unused None Equipment Stored On Illdatch Adventure Results xxxxxxx in (adventure name) [0,000.00 XP] [0,000.00 gp] Arena Results Record: 00 W/00 L xxxxx vs xxxxxxxxxx (xxx) [0,000.00 XP] [0,000.00 gp] Allies Type: Animal Gender: Female Race: Bactrian Camel Size: Large Alignment: Neutral Attributes STR 19 (+4) [18 Base + 1 Animal Companion] DEX 17 (+3) [16 Base + 1 Animal Companion] CON 16 (+3) INT 02 (-5) WIS 12 (+1) [11 Base + 1 Advancement] CHA 04 (-3) Miscellaneous Statistics Hit Points: 37 [5 HD] [(4.5 Ani x 5) + (3 Con x 5)] Armor Class (Normal): 17 [10 Base + 3 Dex + 4 Armor + 1 Natural - 1 Size] Armor Class (Touch): 12 [10 Base + 3 Dex - 1 Size] Armor Class (Flat-Footed): 14 [10 Base + 4 Armor + 1 Natural - 1 Size] Initiative: +3 [3 Dex] Base Attack Bonus: +3 [3 Ani] Grapple: +11 [3 BAB + 4 Str + 4 Size] Speed: 40 ft [40 Base] Weight Carried: 229.00 lbs, Light encumbrance [0-348 (Light), 349-699 (Medium), 700-1050 (Heavy)] Saves Fortitude: +7 [4 Ani + 3 Con] Reflex: +7 [4 Ani + 3 Dex] Will: +2 [1 Ani + 1 Wis] Melee Attacks Bite: +1, 1d4+2 (x2) [3 BAB + 4 Str - 1 Size - 5 Secondary Attack] Combat Abilities Come Down Guard Heel Seek Stay Track Work Feats Ani 1: Alertness Ani 3: Endurance Skills Balance: +2 [0 Ranks (0 Ani) + 3 Dex - 1 ACP] Climb: +3 [0 Ranks (0 Ani) + 4 Str - 1 ACP] Hide: +2 [0 Ranks (0 Ani) + 3 Dex - 1 ACP] Jump: +7 [0 Ranks (0 Ani) + 4 Str + 4 Unnamed - 1 ACP] Listen: +7 [3 Ranks (4 Ani) + 1 Wis + 2 Feat] Move Silently: +2 [0 Ranks (0 Ani) + 3 Dex - 1 ACP] Spot: +7 [3 Ranks (4 Ani) + 1 Wis + 2 Feat] Languages: N/A [N/A] Total Skill Points: 8 [8 Ani] Armor Check Penalty: -1 [-1 Armor] General Tactics Flee Equipment Carried 080 Alchemical Silver Arrows [12.00 lbs] 440 Arrows [66.00 lbs] 001 Bit and Bridle [01.00 lbs] 080 Cold Iron Arrows [12.00 lbs] 001 Crowbar [05.00 lbs] 001 Fishing Net [05.00 lbs] 001 Hammer [02.00 lbs] 001 Masterwork Artisan's Tools (Armorsmithing) [05.00 lbs] 001 Masterwork Artisan's Tools (Bowmaking) [05.00 lbs] 001 Masterwork Artisan's Tools (Weaponsmithing) [05.00 lbs] 001 Masterwork Chain Shirt Barding [50.00 lbs] 001 Pack Saddle [20.00 lbs] 010 Sacks [05.00 lbs] 001 Shovel [08.00 lbs] 005 Waterskins [20.00 lbs] Miscellaneous Link Share Spells Evasion Low-light vision Scent Miscellaneous Simple Weapons Martial Weapons Light Armor Shields Wild Empathy Animal Companion Spells Low-light vision Elven Weapons Secret door search 001 +2 Mithral Chain ShirtC (Creation) [0,550.00 gp + 4,000.00 gp enchantment] 001 Adamantine HandaxeC (Creation) [1,503.00 gp] 001 Adamantine HandaxeC (Creation) [1,503.00 gp] 100 Alchemical Silver ArrowsC (Creation) [0,102.50 gp] 500 ArrowsC (Creation) [0,012.50 gp] 001 Bit and Bridle [0,002.00 gp] 010 Chalk [0,000.10 gp] 100 Cold Iron ArrowsC (Creation) [0,005.00 gp] 001 Crowbar [0,002.00 gp] 001 Darkwood Composite Longbow (+2 Str)C (Creation) [0,315.00 gp] 001 Darkwood Composite Longbow (+2 Str)C (Creation) [0,315.00 gp] 001 Fishing Net [0,004.00 gp] 001 Flint & Steel [0,000.10 gp] 001 Gauntlets of Ogre Power [4,000.00 gp] 001 Hammer [0,000.50 gp] 001 Holly & Mistletoe [0,000.00 gp] 001 Masterwork Alchemical Silver HandaxeC (Creation) [0,163.00 gp] 001 Masterwork Alchemical Silver HandaxeC (Creation) [0,163.00 gp] 001 Masterwork Artisan's Tools (Armorsmithing) [0,055.00 gp] 001 Masterwork Artisan's Tools (Bowmaking) [0,055.00 gp] 001 Masterwork Artisan's Tools (Weaponsmithing) [0,055.00 gp] 001 Masterwork Cold Iron HandaxeC (Creation) [0,156.00 gp] 001 Masterwork Cold Iron HandaxeC (Creation) [0,156.00 gp] 001 Masterwork Chain Shirt BardingC (Creation) [0,275.00 gp] 001 Pack Saddle [0,015.00 gp] 010 Sacks [0,001.00 gp] 001 Shovel [0,002.00 gp] 001 Signal Whistle [0,000.80 gp] 001 Spell Component Pouch [0,000.50 gp] 001 Waterskins [0,005.00 gp] ----- Starting: 13,500.00 gp Battles: 0.00 gp Sales: + 0.00 gp --------------- Total Earned: 13,500.00 gp Purchases: - 13,417.00 gp --------------- Total Left: 83.00 gp ----- Time Between Fights: N/A Prebuffs/Ongoing Effects: xxxxx (time remaining), xxxxx (time remaining) Items Used: xxxxx, xxxxx Spells/Power Points Used: xxxxx x/day Abilities Used: xxxxx Free Activity: xxxxx Time Between Fights: ? hrs Prebuffs/Ongoing Effects: xxxxx (time remaining), xxxxx (time remaining) Items Used: xxxxx, xxxxx Spells/Power Points Used: xxxxx x/day Abilities Used: xxxxx Free Activity: xxxxx Time Between Fights: ? hrs Prebuffs/Ongoing Effects: xxxxx (time remaining), xxxxx (time remaining) Items Used: xxxxx, xxxxx Spells/Power Points Used: xxxxx x/day Abilities Used: xxxxx Free Activity: xxxxx Garet is by nature a wanderer. He travels where the winds take him, with or without purpose. He is always on the lookout for the next challenge. The Early Years Garet grew up as a part of several small elven communities that made their homes in the foothills of a small mountain range. His own family often travelled between the communities, most often in response to a request for his father's hand at a job. His father was a successful blacksmith/armorsmith/weaponsmith, while his mother was a bowyer and fletcher. They had their own small family business, but often travelled to the surrounding communities when there was a need. Garet spent much of his early years either in the forge, or travelling to and fro. He learned the family trade, and soon became quite proficient himself. He probably would have eventually taken it over, were it not for the constant need to prove himself. He was always seeking a new challenge. Whether it was wrestling with other kids his age, or archery tests, or tracking small game, Garet had a drive to prove himself the best. Garet's life was peaceful and happy for the most part, although he became complacent and bored as he grew older. To put it bluntly, he had met every challenge he could meet in his homeland. He began to travel farther and farther afield, staying away from home more and more. He used the skills he had learned as an adolescent and perfected them in the surrounding mountains and lower plains. He would often stay away for weeks at a time, just to prove to himself that he could. He would meet travelers on his forays, and would hear stories of other portions of the world he had never seen. He would trade his expertise for the ability to learn new things, and lended aid where he could. He even helped an old goldhunter birth a camel he had brought with him, and was rewarded with an infant camel of his own. He raised it the best way he new how, and it soon became is closest companion. However, not really knowing much about camels, he raised him in the manner with which he was familiar, being that of a horse. As such, the camel is camel in name only, while acting like he could charge into combat or prance in a parade with equal ease. This has caused Garet no end of amusement, as well as a fair share of trouble. The Present Garet, now a young adult, has left home permanently with his friend Ildatch and is now seeking out new challenges in the world. He has not found anything that he has not been able to overcome as of yet, but he keeps looking. He is now an accomplished archer and fighter, as well as a woodsman of some renown. He makes his way as a guide to the uninitiated, or as a bounty hunter to the victimized. He has found himself in the city of Gladius, where it is said all manner of tests await those strong enough to bear their weight... Corrupter is ready also... all crafted and ready :)
templer10 05-22-07, 11:05 PM	Heya, What do you think of Flash? He is not an entirely serious build, just for the comedy factor, and because I liked to make a kinda weird character. Besides, he's probably going to annoy Pitlords a lot. And thanks for all the replies about reasons for retirement, enjoyed reading them. well if you ever decide to get serius on him rogue levels and weapon finesse will do wonders for you since Blinking nets you sneak attack on every attack. hmm. you actually gave me an idea - but that Would be stealing a bit...
hogarth 05-22-07, 11:06 PM	Its a good thing we got rid of diplomacy allies before they ran rampant through Gladius... Of the characters on the active roster there were 3 who had them (a fourth was Anakala whom I have already removed as a result of the ruling and there were a few more who have been removed already not as a result of the ruling (Cat's characters for instance)). Excuse me if I never felt they were a big deal... I'm not a big fan of the argument "no one has abused rule X so far, so it must be a good rule". It just makes me want to go out and make a build that uses it so that I can say "See? There is a problem..." That was sort of my intent with my character Reginald Molehusband, but it turns out that my characters have gained levels very slowly. Now that he's about to reach the level where Diplomacy allies start to get silly (level 7+ by my reckoning), (a) Forgery has been (rightly) banned for a while now, and (b) Diplomacy allies may be removed altogether!
Zevox 05-22-07, 11:12 PM	If you've got that many applicants Mitza, go ahead and give the spots to Rauul and Sjiggie. I'm already in a campaign, so I may as well let those who aren't have their go at it. I was having trouble coming up with ideas for Mindrel in RP that I haven't already used on Istima anyway. Zevox
MindWandererB 05-22-07, 11:32 PM	Well, I never bothered to complain loudly to cat about it. I was charged 5 credits to start him at 4th then after two weeks. He was removed from the roster. I might be able to argue for myself to get him back on the roster at 5th as viable at a cost to me of another 5 credits but that is completely upto MWB. I would of course be adding a level of fighter probably to him. So, that he could use all his equipment. Cat's argument is he couldn't see how someone at -16 to hit 3 times was viable. He couldn't see how Varsh could possibly win against a 4th level character. I informed him that the average 4th level character would need a 20 and only get 1 swings. It was a fair match up.. Both needed 20s.That kind of pisses me off. It's not up to the GM to decide whether or not a character is viable unless he suspects it of being a Maven. Since Varsh is on my list of retired characters, he can be restored to the list of active ones at no additional cost. However, I don't believe you can pay credits to level-up a character that's already begun play, so if you wanted him to come in at level 5, it would cost you 10 credits as if it were a brand-spanking-new character. But I'd be glad to refund you your original 5, if Cat didn't already do so (he refunded me the credits I spent on Zero when he got nerfed into uselessness). Edit: Hmm, it seems the profanity filter's parameters got changed. I expected "pisses" to become *****.
Vathelokai 05-22-07, 11:35 PM	And here is Garet Jax, now at ECL 6, awaiting Mitza's campaign. Critique welcome. Looks good as far as I can see. I'd purchase more stuff (campaign-y stuff; rations, climbing gear, change of clothes), but I'm like that.
Vathelokai 05-22-07, 11:37 PM	Edit: Hmm, it seems the profanity filter's parameters got changed. I expected "pisses" to become *****. It's not changed try changing the tense... -ed is profanity. Present tense isn't.
NiQil 05-22-07, 11:45 PM	Looks good as far as I can see. I'd purchase more stuff (campaign-y stuff; rations, climbing gear, change of clothes), but I'm like that. I have a lot of that stored on the camel...and if I need new clothes, then I am gonna get chaffed, since I would just be forced to hang out with my wang out until I find some leaves or something LOL The one thing I wasn't concerned about was food...as long as we aren't in a dungeon crawl, I should be able to forage...if we end up in a crawl, then I can purchase beforehand. I am still trying to decide, however, if I should go back and pick up that 10 ft pole.....they make such good trap-springers (especially if you are stuck out in front because there's no rogue around).
Aura_Blade 05-22-07, 11:59 PM	Can a monk do flurry of blows and use combat expertise at the same time? The rules say you can use the feat when doing a full attack, and Flurry is a full attack. And on the same topic, can he also fight defensively while using Combat Expertise, and/or flurry of blows? I took a look in the rules for each of these, and they seem to fit together okay, but since I don't have much experience in D&D I figure I should ask. I'm curious so I know whether I can do these as strategies for future matches.
MindWandererB 05-23-07, 12:01 AM	Can a monk do flurry of blows and use combat expertise at the same time? The rules say you can use the feat when doing a full attack, and Flurry is a full attack. And on the same topic, can he also fight defensively while using Combat Expertise, and/or flurry of blows? I took a look in the rules for each of these, and they seem to fit together okay, but since I don't have much experience in D&D I figure I should ask. I'm curious so I know whether I can do these as strategies for future matches. Yes, you can do all three at once. Your attack bonus will be miserable, but you can do it.
MitzaVolchenko 05-23-07, 12:03 AM	I have a lot of that stored on the camel...and if I need new clothes, then I am gonna get chaffed, since I would just be forced to hang out with my wang out until I find some leaves or something LOL The one thing I wasn't concerned about was food...as long as we aren't in a dungeon crawl, I should be able to forage...if we end up in a crawl, then I can purchase beforehand. I am still trying to decide, however, if I should go back and pick up that 10 ft pole.....they make such good trap-springers (especially if you are stuck out in front because there's no rogue around). I will allow supply purchase after the campaign gets under way...as for trap springers...looks like you may have a bard along...and we all know that everyone wants the songster to get flattened, pierced, bludgeoned, impaled, combusted, and generally dead within a very short period :P
NiQil 05-23-07, 12:04 AM	I will allow supply purchase after the campaign gets under way...as for trap springers...looks like you may have a bard along...and we all know that everyone wants the songster to get flattened, pierced, bludgeoned, impaled, combusted, and generally dead within a very short period :P Only if he doesn't keep his mouth shut when he's supposed to :P
MitzaVolchenko 05-23-07, 12:05 AM	Only if he doesn't keep his mouth shut when he's supposed to :P They never do...just ask Sybil ;)
NiQil 05-23-07, 12:07 AM	They never do...just ask Sybil ;) Speaking of which...do we have a primary divinist (cleric or druid) along? If we are gonna be short on a healing class, then that means the bard and most likely my ranger are gonna be responsible for keeping everyone alive. That might change some of my purchases...might have to at least work a CLW wand in there somewhere...
Vathelokai 05-23-07, 12:22 AM	I am still trying to decide, however, if I should go back and pick up that 10 ft pole.....they make such good trap-springers (especially if you are stuck out in front because there's no rogue around). Saffron Brass keeps one of those in her haversack (along with half the mundane equipment list). Actually got to use it to spring a trap on a quest. Didn't work as well as I planed, but it worked none-the-less.
Rauul 05-23-07, 12:28 AM	Speaking of which...do we have a primary divinist (cleric or druid) along? If we are gonna be short on a healing class, then that means the bard and most likely my ranger are gonna be responsible for keeping everyone alive. That might change some of my purchases...might have to at least work a CLW wand in there somewhere... well if Corrupter goes... he has his cohort.. fighter 2 cleric 3 of death
MitzaVolchenko 05-23-07, 12:29 AM	Can a monk do flurry of blows and use combat expertise at the same time? The rules say you can use the feat when doing a full attack, and Flurry is a full attack. And on the same topic, can he also fight defensively while using Combat Expertise, and/or flurry of blows? I took a look in the rules for each of these, and they seem to fit together okay, but since I don't have much experience in D&D I figure I should ask. I'm curious so I know whether I can do these as strategies for future matches. You can certianly do those things. Since you Pm'd me, and I responded, I decided to go ahead and give you a sample of what I would have written for tactics for Kazero's fight. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12465123&postcount=883) This also lets others give some constructive feedback for it..I am by no means the master builder around here as my two starting babies are always struggling to keep the failure tags at bay. Okay looking at Namara...her grapple is superior and she has better weapon choices. You both deflect so range is no good. Kazero's advantage is Improved trip (which I think you may have confused with Improved Disarm). Kazero is facing a reach weapon, so he has to get inside its reach. My tactics were I writing them for Kazero would have been: Ouch. Okay, close to melee using tumble to get inside of the reach weapon. Trip her. If grappled, trip her Yes, you can trip in a grapple which would reduce her AC and provoke AoO if she tries to stand. Use Flurry of Blows once Namara is down. AoO for her attempting to stand should be a trip attempt. Single attack trip attempts any time Namara regains her feet. If she seems to be scoring a lot of hits (half HP or so) use max combat expertise with trip attempts. Improvise as needed, all items are available for use. Do not surrender. The advantages to what I wrote above are that you don't get hit with AoO's and you don't sacrifice attack bonus or defense unless your opponent is already at negatives for being prone. The characters were fairly evenly matched, though Namara has more versatility (built by an experienced player...take a look at the first two characters in my sig line for what my newbie characters looked like). You also leave the pitlord room to wiggle if things just aren't working out. My suggestions for the character without changing the build would be to think about a few expendables (I love psionic tattoos...inertial armor+force screen for +8 to AC...it is costly in a losing fight, but they go a long way toward not dying, particularly at the lower levels.) or save up some cash for a few nice trinkets. An Amulet of Natural Armor comes to mind. I would also consider a light crossbow as a better option for ranged combat. Overall Kazero is a viable character. He is certainly more sound than Zwei was at that level in terms of melee (of course she is a stealth monkey so really not much comparison). One more fight and you get to go shopping (always fun). Think about where Kazero has had trouble and see if you can plug the gaps with equipment or expendables...I lean toward equipment over expendables, but both have their place :)
SauroGrenom 05-23-07, 01:22 AM	When you use Polymorph, does your physical stats become that of your new "race"? Or do you just get the racial stat modifiers? What happens to your old racial stat modifiers? How about other modifiers (like age)? Do all of these modifiers just stack? Are any of them considered enhancements (thus won't stack)?
Zevox 05-23-07, 01:38 AM	When you use Polymorph, does your physical stats become that of your new "race"? Or do you just get the racial stat modifiers? What happens to your old racial stat modifiers? How about other modifiers (like age)? Do all of these modifiers just stack? Are any of them considered enhancements (thus won't stack)? Standard polymorph, you gain the physical stats (str, dex, con) of your new form in place of your old. Spells or items enhancing them will still function, presuming they fit on the new form (for instance, if I polymorphed Archdevil Asran into an Erinyes, his Gloves of Dexterity +2 would still work, but if he was changed into an Arrowhawk they wouldn't). Mental ability scores don't change unless an item enhancing them is no longer wearable. Isn't that spelled out pretty clearly in the spell? Zevox
Usurpator 05-23-07, 03:34 AM	Flash...wasn't that Roscoe P. Coltrane's dog on "The Dukes of Hazzard"? I had been mulling over the idea of a blink dog rogue/assassin (Blink is great for sneak attacking), but I didn't get too far with it. Just a question -- where is he holding the Rod of Wonder? And how is he speaking the command word? Clenched in his jaws was my idea. Part of the problem of the Blink Dog, no prehensile appendages really. Command word, what command word? Activation: Details relating to rod use vary from item to item. See the individual descriptions for specifics Wonder: A rod of wonder is a strange and unpredictable device that randomly generates any number of weird effects each time it is used. (Activating the rod is a standard action.)
Usurpator 05-23-07, 03:36 AM	well if you ever decide to get serius on him rogue levels and weapon finesse will do wonders for you since Blinking nets you sneak attack on every attack. hmm. you actually gave me an idea - but that Would be stealing a bit... If I get serious, I'll probably give him Rogue and levels from some Psychic Class. Already got Skill Focus Bluff to take one of those skill packages next level. Still, the biggest problem is, damage output remains poor, and getting close to opponents in these leagues with his AC/hp/saves can mean death.
Sjiggie 05-23-07, 06:26 AM	I have NiQil with a ranger-definite and will level to whatever the EL of the campaign ends up at. Cupid and Tessero are new possibilities ot the list. Sjiggie has a proposed character in as do Zevox and Rauul. I need to check ECL's and availabilities. If there is enough interest, I will run two campaigns. I have four set up to run for whenever, so Imay split people and shift them around. Valanthe is going on a 3-week quest this week after that he should hit ECL 6 and pick his first level as warmind. Speaking of which...do we have a primary divinist (cleric or druid) along? If we are gonna be short on a healing class, then that means the bard and most likely my ranger are gonna be responsible for keeping everyone alive. That might change some of my purchases...might have to at least work a CLW wand in there somewhere... Valanthe is not a cleric or druid but he carries a CLW wand but we might need more than one
McJarvis 05-23-07, 07:11 AM	Speaking of which...do we have a primary divinist (cleric or druid) along? If we are gonna be short on a healing class, then that means the bard and most likely my ranger are gonna be responsible for keeping everyone alive. That might change some of my purchases...might have to at least work a CLW wand in there somewhere... I would advise we just run it like I run my home games: If you're in the party & you want healing, buy your own healing scrolls/wands & give them to the bard. When you're in need, Cupid will come over & use one of your items that she is conveniently carrying.
Vathelokai 05-23-07, 08:38 AM	I've been toying around with the build for Unholy Ninja and I think I have what I want. Still not sure about feats. Might want to take elocator earlier. Any suggestions? LV Class Stuff Class Stuff 4 monk +1str still mind, monk speed 5 monk ki strike, slowfall, higher unarmed damage 6 assassin weapon focus?/standstill? sneak attack, death attack, poison use, spells 7 assassin save vs. poison bonus, uncanny dodge 8 assassin +1str sneak attack 9 shadowdancer spring attack hide in plain sight 10 shadowdancer darkvision, imp. uncanny dodge 11 shadowdancer shadow illusion, summon shadow 12 shadowdancer +1str, wild talent shadow jump 13 shadowdancer defensive roll 14 psionic fist imp. monk abilities, empty mind 15 elocator feat scorn earth, sidestep charge, (1 psi-power) 16 shadowdancer +1str imp. shadow jump, imp. summon shadow 17 shadowdancer slippery mind 18 shadowdancer feat imp. shadow jump 19 shadowdancer imp. summon shadow 20 shadowdancer +1str imp. shadow jump, imp. evasion
templer10 05-23-07, 08:40 AM	what kind of items a Blink dog can use? they are intelligent and are capable of speech in their own languge so iam thinking even if they cant actually learn to speak common (and iam not sure they cant) they could use scrolls scrbied in their own languge by say a wizard with tongues.
Macbrea 05-23-07, 09:01 AM	It has been agreed a few times that an acceptable list may be found linked off Rules of the Game: Animals 4. The list available for animals types is: One skull cap or helm One pair of lenses or goggles One collar One saddle blanket or vest One saddle or jacket One belt or strap worn in front of or over the haunches One pectoral or harness worn over the chest or shoulders One pair foreleg bracers One pair of foreleg shoes or mitts -- hoofed creatures wear shoes and creatures with paws wear mitts Two rings -- creatures with toes wear rings on the toes and creatures with hooves wear "rings" just above fore hooves One pair of hind leg shoes or mitts -- hoofed creatures wear shoes and creatures with paws wear mitts
templer10 05-23-07, 09:11 AM	It has been agreed a few times that an acceptable list may be found linked off Rules of the Game: Animals 4. The list available for animals types is: One skull cap or helm One pair of lenses or goggles One collar One saddle blanket or vest One saddle or jacket One belt or strap worn in front of or over the haunches One pectoral or harness worn over the chest or shoulders One pair foreleg bracers One pair of foreleg shoes or mitts -- hoofed creatures wear shoes and creatures with paws wear mitts Two rings -- creatures with toes wear rings on the toes and creatures with hooves wear "rings" just above fore hooves One pair of hind leg shoes or mitts -- hoofed creatures wear shoes and creatures with paws wear mitts can you wear on the forelegs/hind legs - items which are normally - gauntlets/gloves? also- that list seems to be directed towards animals not intelligent animals - who can speak (in their own laguege but it's still considered speaking) so CAN that kind of intelligent animal use scrolls scribed in it's own languege?
Macbrea 05-23-07, 09:39 AM	Well. I play Razorfang a worg. He should be allowed to cast spells same as a Celestial Charger Unicorn. The FAQ states that creatures without limbs may do other body movements to do Somatic maneuvers. Your problem with Scrolls is going to be unrolling them in combat. You lack hands. Potions you are allowed to break in your mouth. Power stones don't require fine manipulation. Scrolls on the other hand require you unroll them to cast them. In theory, if you had an unrolled scroll you could easily read it. http://www.southfaceoutdoor.com/files/d_260.jpg Heh...
Khaim 05-23-07, 09:46 AM	Your problem with Scrolls is going to be unrolling them in combat. You lack hands. Potions you are allowed to break in your mouth. Power stones don't require fine manipulation. Scrolls on the other hand require you unroll them to cast them. In theory, if you had an unrolled scroll you could easily read it. This is where those alternate expendible items from... some book... would really come in handy. They work just like scrolls or potions but can have different forms, like runed tiles or some such.
Macbrea 05-23-07, 09:47 AM	Yup...
McJarvis 05-23-07, 09:57 AM	Metamorphic Transfer. This is usable 3 times per day, only one time per use. What if you assume supernatural abilities that are continuous(like the Choker's Quickness ability)? Specific example of "abuse": Elan Wiz 3/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 4 This is a wand slinging build[Among other things]. It uses Alterself to take the form of a choker for entire fights & expeditious retreat/haste/fight(pick one) to ensure that speed isn't an issue. While a straight ticket metamorphasis user might be a better bet, this guy gets to use meta too, but doesn't have to dedicate that many PP to it. So how often do you get the quickness? At my home games I ruled that things like quickness could only be used for 1 round, but I'm unsure of how much of an improv that is, nor am I even sure if my above stated build is "broken" in any way shape or form. Furthermore-> Could you alterself & assume the quickness, then polymorph into something else while retaining the quickness?[2 different spell effects] Assume Supernatural merely says you can gain the ability 3/day, but doesn't state that you lose it if another polymorph form comes out on top.
templer10 05-23-07, 10:02 AM	Well. I play Razorfang a worg. He should be allowed to cast spells same as a Celestial Charger Unicorn. The FAQ states that creatures without limbs may do other body movements to do Somatic maneuvers. Your problem with Scrolls is going to be unrolling them in combat. You lack hands. Potions you are allowed to break in your mouth. Power stones don't require fine manipulation. Scrolls on the other hand require you unroll them to cast them. In theory, if you had an unrolled scroll you could easily read it. http://www.southfaceoutdoor.com/files/d_260.jpg Heh... you can do that if you have a continue use wonderous item of Prestidigitation - should cost 1,500 GP. (to unroll the scroll).
Vathelokai 05-23-07, 10:29 AM	This is where those alternate expendible items from... some book... would really come in handy. They work just like scrolls or potions but can have different forms, like runed tiles or some such. They are in the DMG2. As for blink dog, it's been allowed in the past (someone had a krenshar) that the mage hand item could be used (slowly) to use potions; I think it would work for scrolls.
hogarth 05-23-07, 11:27 AM	The ruling has been that Quickness lasts as long as you're a choker. This idea (alter self into choker + wands/dorjes) is exactly the idea behind my character Kilpquabjeg. She's been moderately successful; note that the low caster level for Alter Self makes it a prime target for dispelling. I don't think it's a secret that wands and dorjes are a great way to kill opponents (if you're willing to pony up the cash). Metamorphic Transfer. This is usable 3 times per day, only one time per use. What if you assume supernatural abilities that are continuous(like the Choker's Quickness ability)? Specific example of "abuse": Elan Wiz 3/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 4 This is a wand slinging build[Among other things]. It uses Alterself to take the form of a choker for entire fights & expeditious retreat/haste/fight(pick one) to ensure that speed isn't an issue. While a straight ticket metamorphasis user might be a better bet, this guy gets to use meta too, but doesn't have to dedicate that many PP to it. So how often do you get the quickness? At my home games I ruled that things like quickness could only be used for 1 round, but I'm unsure of how much of an improv that is, nor am I even sure if my above stated build is "broken" in any way shape or form. Furthermore-> Could you alterself & assume the quickness, then polymorph into something else while retaining the quickness?[2 different spell effects] Assume Supernatural merely says you can gain the ability 3/day, but doesn't state that you lose it if another polymorph form comes out on top.
McJarvis 05-23-07, 11:29 AM	The ruling has been that Quickness lasts as long as you're a choker. This idea (alter self into choker + wands/dorjes) is exactly the idea behind my character Kilpquabjeg. She's been moderately successful; note that the low caster level for Alter Self makes it a prime target for dispelling. I don't think it's a secret that wands and dorjes are a great way to kill opponents (if you're willing to pony up the cash). Of course, with my build the alterself would always have a casterlevel of ECL-3.
hogarth 05-23-07, 11:33 AM	Of course, with my build the alterself would always have a casterlevel of ECL-3. Of course, with my build I start using Metamorphosis which will always have a caster level of ECL-1.
McJarvis 05-23-07, 11:34 AM	Of course, with my build I start using Metamorphosis which will always have a caster level of ECL-1. Ahha! but I only have to use 2nd level spells... Eh, who are we kidding? I don't have the energy to dedicate to 2 poly chars.
hogarth 05-23-07, 12:11 PM	Ahha! but I only have to use 2nd level spells... Eh, who are we kidding? I don't have the energy to dedicate to 2 poly chars. Me neither. At one point I started creating a blend of Kilpquabjeg (alter self into choker + wands) and Reginald Molehusband (allies + useful skills); I was thinking of Bard 1 (animal companion variant)/Egoist 5. But then I realised that I barely activate my current characters as-is, so what'd be the point of forking out 25 credits for a new one?
Hirumajoe 05-23-07, 12:35 PM	1) Can you use the burrowing power feat to bypass an Ectoplasmic Cocoon and damage the helpless target inside? 2) Can incorporeal creature coup de grace such a cocooned creature? 3) Can you use burrowing power while within an object to let the power get out? I'm currently considering a very odd character. A Psion (Shaper) who uses Astral Constructs, wall type power (maybe even Psionic Fabricate and a cart full of wood), using the burrowing power feat, and eventually going Psion Uncarnate. Nothing like being totally within an object and still firing powers out... Edit: Also don't forget Assume Likeness to look like an Astral Construct... Does this all work or am I going crazy?
hogarth 05-23-07, 12:47 PM	A Psion (Shaper) who uses Astral Constructs, wall type power (maybe even Psionic Fabricate and a cart full of wood), using the burrowing power feat, and eventually going Psion Uncarnate. Nothing like being totally within an object and still firing powers out... Psion Uncarnate is pretty crappy. Before ECL 15, Shed Body lasts 10 rounds, once or twice a day. After ECL 15, the leagues will probably be frozen for a long time. I wouldn't hang a build around that. Now an Unbodied, maybe... EDIT: Oh...I guess it would only take a few rounds of incorporeality to encase yourself in a home-made bank vault that only you can manifest through. I guess that'd be kind of neat. Psion Uncarnate is still pretty crappy, though.
McJarvis 05-23-07, 12:48 PM	Me neither. At one point I started creating a blend of Kilpquabjeg (alter self into choker + wands) and Reginald Molehusband (allies + useful skills); I was thinking of Bard 1 (animal companion variant)/Egoist 5. But then I realised that I barely activate my current characters as-is, so what'd be the point of forking out 25 credits for a new one? A Bard 1/Egoist X character could be a pretty mean archer-type. hmm...
Hirumajoe 05-23-07, 01:19 PM	Psion Uncarnate is pretty crappy. Before ECL 15, Shed Body lasts 10 rounds, once or twice a day. After ECL 15, the leagues will probably be frozen for a long time. I wouldn't hang a build around that. Now an Unbodied, maybe... EDIT: Oh...I guess it would only take a few rounds of incorporeality to encase yourself in a home-made bank vault that only you can manifest through. I guess that'd be kind of neat. Psion Uncarnate is still pretty crappy, though. In the case of Unbodied, you're losing 4 caster levels up front as opposed to in the middle and at the end. Also, equipment is much less of an issue with a Uncarnate as they get class levels worth of pieces they can keep. Depending on how the ruling for assume equipment works, they can still use bows. (Is a quiver of arrows one piece of equipment?) Perhaps using the bolt power to refill as needed or a quiver of Ehlonna. Actually are all of an incorpreal psion incarnate's weapon attacks ignore armor, natural armor, etc?
Zevox 05-23-07, 01:27 PM	Wow, this is the deadest Wednesday I've ever seen around here. Where is everybody? Zevox
MitzaVolchenko 05-23-07, 01:30 PM	Heading out to get poisoned :)
McJarvis 05-23-07, 01:31 PM	RE: Pixies & special arrows: Do we have any concrete rules that prevent pixies from using these?[As in: actually written in the Gladius rules?] They are not a matter of "Pixies equip themselves with magical arrows". Notice that the arrow save DCs have a racial bonus to DC & are directly affected by the Pixie's charisma. This is different from other examples: Drow use the same DC all the time, which happens to be the same as the poison listed as "Drow Poison".
MitzaVolchenko 05-23-07, 01:34 PM	RE: Pixies & special arrows: Do we have any concrete rules that prevent pixies from using these?[As in: actually written in the Gladius rules?] They are not a matter of "Pixies equip themselves with magical arrows". Notice that the arrow save DCs have a racial bonus to DC & are directly affected by the Pixie's charisma. This is different from other examples: Drow use the same DC all the time, which happens to be the same as the poison listed as "Drow Poison". Check the court rulings. You will find one (unless it has been removed) stating that pixie special arrows are not allowed in CoCo. Cat's justification was that the sleep arrows have no max HD. Of course neither does Saffron's breath weapon... There are no rules in the book anywhere for how a pixie makes them either.
McJarvis 05-23-07, 01:37 PM	There are no rules in the book anywhere for how a pixie makes them either. What makes you think the pixie makes them? If it's based on the pixies current ability mod then the pixie is "converting" the arrows it fires into those type at will. Note that it says they "employ" special arrows. Since the arrows do no damage when they use them that way, there is a reason not to use them that way sometimes.
TelinArtho 05-23-07, 01:50 PM	@Usurpator - for Flash - you have a listed +1 ability in strength for level. When the base creature has enough hit dice for an ability bonus - you don't add the ability bonus for that group of hit dice. For instance - a 2hd Riding dog advanced to 4HD (via animal companion) would gain an ability bonus at 4HD; a 4HD Dire Bat would not gain one, but it would gain one at 8HD. Ability Score Improvement: Treat monster Hit Dice the same as character level for determining ability score increases. This only applies to Hit Dice increases, monsters do not gain ability score increases for levels they “already reached” with their racial Hit Dice, since these adjustments are included in their basic ability scores.
Abyssal Stalker 05-23-07, 02:11 PM	Looks like two of our heroes are headed to the same part of the world. Funny coincident, Telin.
TelinArtho 05-23-07, 02:15 PM	Blame it on Sjiggie - he picked the destination :) Good to see that you have linked your locations to the world thread. I'm hoping to be taking up the reigns on that soon - so the more active links I get to work with the better...
Abyssal Stalker 05-23-07, 02:20 PM	Yeah, I try to do that alot. I'm starting to like Norderstahl and The North more and more after I created Lemminkäinen. I see it as the CoCo version of North Europe.
Hirumajoe 05-23-07, 03:08 PM	So I've ditched the Pixie craziness (partly because 20 credits for a Whirling Frenzy Pixie is a bit much...) I present the next possibly interesting idea lacking actual punch: Altair. Ok, so I'm not great with new names... The Psion (Shaper) who goes Psion Uncarnate. Short term plans include archery and Astral Constructs. Long term plans including Burrowing Power, Incorpreality, and Fabricate, Psionic. (And also Greater Fabricate, Psionic => nothing like making multiple walls out of 10 cubic feet of rock/stone per level => or at the very least a wall of stone statues :) )
SauroGrenom 05-23-07, 05:18 PM	Psion Uncarnate is pretty crappy. Before ECL 15, Shed Body lasts 10 rounds, once or twice a day. After ECL 15, the leagues will probably be frozen for a long time. I wouldn't hang a build around that. Now an Unbodied, maybe... EDIT: Oh...I guess it would only take a few rounds of incorporeality to encase yourself in a home-made bank vault that only you can manifest through. I guess that'd be kind of neat. Psion Uncarnate is still pretty crappy, though. I've looked at Unbodied psions for a long time. I just cannot make it work. The LA is high. If you can get over that, then you have a huge problem with equipment. There's not much you can use. You only get ghost touch stuff, Ioun Stones and things like the tombs or command word activated items that require little or no physical manipulation (bowl of summon earth elementals or crystalball). Some of those would even require a cohort to lug around for you.
Rauul 05-23-07, 05:24 PM	So I've ditched the Pixie craziness (partly because 20 credits for a Whirling Frenzy Pixie is a bit much...) I present the next possibly interesting idea lacking actual punch: Altair. Ok, so I'm not great with new names... The Psion (Shaper) who goes Psion Uncarnate. Short term plans include archery and Astral Constructs. Long term plans including Burrowing Power, Incorpreality, and Fabricate, Psionic. (And also Greater Fabricate, Psionic => nothing like making multiple walls out of 10 cubic feet of rock/stone per level => or at the very least a wall of stone statues :) ) Bah another elf... at least the pixie was different
Rauul 05-23-07, 05:39 PM	when were mephits removed from the Playable races list?
SauroGrenom 05-23-07, 05:44 PM	when were mephits removed from the Playable races list? I don't think they ever where on the list of playable races. None of the cohort only races ever was.
TelinArtho 05-23-07, 05:45 PM	I don't think they ever where on the list of playable races. None of the cohort only races ever was. Correct, but do note this underneath the cohort list: While these races are cohort-only, if you really have your heart set on playing one as a character, it will usually be allowed. Note, though, that these races were labeled cohort-only for a reason; playing them as PCs usually involves unusual challenges. Playing one of these races as a PC is only recommended if you're experienced in the workings of the Core Coliseum.
Vathelokai 05-23-07, 05:59 PM	LLMadCow actually had a mephit once; so I know they were allowed. Wheather they were on the list or not, I'm unsure.
TelinArtho 05-23-07, 06:12 PM	LLMadCow actually had a mephit once; so I know they were allowed. Wheather they were on the list or not, I'm unsure. He had an air mephit. Apparently Macbrea's worked on them more than once... Nessa Tempe - LLMadCow - Air Mephit, Psychic Warrior 1 Oraka - MacBrea - Air Mephit - under construction Master Yari - MacBrea - Air Mephit - also looks under construction...
Sjiggie 05-23-07, 06:22 PM	Looks like two of our heroes are headed to the same part of the world. Funny coincident, Telin. Noticed it too Blame it on Sjiggie - he picked the destination :) Good to see that you have linked your locations to the world thread. I'm hoping to be taking up the reigns on that soon - so the more active links I get to work with the better... Why blame me isn't it nice that someone else that the one wanting the quest put some effort in it than letting it all on the questlord :p
TheMagister 05-23-07, 10:41 PM	This NPC lizardfolk I'm supposed to create: he's CR1 with just racial levels. I can make him any NPC class I want (so no barbarians or druids - their favored classes). So say I pick "Warrior". How many class levels do I give him to make him CR 3? FOUR?! (1 + .5(4)) = CR 3. TM
Zevox 05-23-07, 11:02 PM	This NPC lizardfolk I'm supposed to create: he's CR1 with just racial levels. I can make him any NPC class I want (so no barbarians or druids - their favored classes). So say I pick "Warrior". How many class levels do I give him to make him CR 3? FOUR?! (1 + .5(4)) = CR 3. TM I'm pretty sure you use ECL on these operatives. And per the Guildhall the operatives for the Swampers are Lizardfolk Rangers, so if thats not the case, he gets two Ranger levels. Zevox
SauroGrenom 05-23-07, 11:09 PM	This NPC lizardfolk I'm supposed to create: he's CR1 with just racial levels. I can make him any NPC class I want (so no barbarians or druids - their favored classes). So say I pick "Warrior". How many class levels do I give him to make him CR 3? FOUR?! (1 + .5(4)) = CR 3. TMI was under the impression that you use ECL. In this case a lizard folk is ECL 3 w/o any class levels. Hence why PSI sent an ECL 3 character to intercept.
TheMagister 05-23-07, 11:34 PM	ECL is fine! I didn't wanna be responsible for corn-holing another player with a finely crafted NPC from heck, that's all.
Aura_Blade 05-24-07, 12:10 AM	I have some questions about monster fights, I wanted to make sure I understood the rules, and I also have a question about metagaming: Is Knowledge Arcana not rolled then? And is "knowledge skill value" the sum of skill ranks, Int modifier, and any other modifiers? Below I have an example, let me know if I'm incorrect. (If I misunderstood, and the DM does roll, pretend the example has dice result instead.) So for example, imagine my character Kazero had the following stats: ~ 6 ranks in Knowledge Arcana ~ +3 Int modifier ~ =9 knowledge "value" ...and he would be facing one of these two monsters: ~ a normal 7-head hydra (CR 6, magical beast) ~ a cyro 7-head hydra (CR 8, magical beast) If he faced a normal hydra, he would only know "Race (7-headed hydra)" [DC 6]. If he faced a cyro hydra, he would also only know "Race (7-headed hydra)" [DC 8]. But if he had 9 ranks in Knowledge Arcana (12 total)... If he faced a normal hydra, he would know "Race, Subtypes, Class levels (7 headed Hydra, no classes)" [DC 11]. If he faced a cyro hydra, he would still only know "Race (7-headed hydra)" [DC 8], because "Race, Subtypes, Class levels" is DC 13. Also, this leads to the question about metagaming (which I don't want to accidentally do so if we aren't supposed to): If all Kazero (6 Arcana, +3 Int) knows about the monster is "Race (7-headed hydra)", does that mean Kazero won't initially know about the fast healing, regeneration of sundered heads, etc.? (And can't plan for it in the strategy?) Furthermore, does the "Dc15+CR: All plus Tactic" mean I can open the Monster Manual and study all about Hydra and write a strategy as if Kazero knows everything about Hydra?
Zevox 05-24-07, 12:17 AM	Is Knowledge Arcana not rolled then? And is "knowledge skill value" the sum of skill ranks, Int modifier, and any other modifiers? Correct. No roll, just based on your total modifier. If all Kazero (6 Arcana, +3 Int) knows about the monster is "Race (7-headed hydra)", does that mean Kazero won't initially know about the fast healing, regeneration of sundered heads, etc.? (And can't plan for it in the strategy?) No, thats not what it means. It simply means that is all the information you (as the player) are given about it. You're free to write tactics based on everything you know about the monster. Heck, you're free to to look through the random monster charts we have and try to guess what the monster is if you don't get as much detail as you'd like. Furthermore, does the "Dc15+CR: All plus Tactic" mean I can open the Monster Manual and study all about Hydra and write a strategy as if Kazero knows everything about Hydra? No - you can do that any time you can guess what you're up against. What that one means is that your pitlord would send you the monster's tactics against you, and you could use those to plan your tactics. Zevox
MindWandererB 05-24-07, 04:21 AM	In other words: metagaming is not an issue; in fact, it's assumed. Depending on what sorts of monsters there are at the level in question, an extremely vague description can let you figure out exactly what it is, and you're free to look in the MM to develop your strategy. There's no way to "cheat" at this, unless you somehow get the pitlord to fork over information he shouldn't.
Macbrea 05-24-07, 08:13 AM	He had an air mephit. Apparently Macbrea's worked on them more than once... Nessa Tempe - LLMadCow - Air Mephit, Psychic Warrior 1 Oraka - MacBrea - Air Mephit - under construction Master Yari - MacBrea - Air Mephit - also looks under construction... Yeah.. I have rebuilt it a couple times but am stuck at the have 15o to run one and not have another idea come up before then. The rule you quoted at the bottom of the Cohort list is the way that blink dogs, worgs and unicorns are playable. The list is available, but obviously you need to have some experience on how coco runs. That's ok, hard to get to the 5o minimum without being here awhile.
McJarvis 05-24-07, 11:18 AM	This one is CoCo all over, right? http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html
TelinArtho 05-24-07, 11:25 AM	Indeed!
Khaim 05-24-07, 11:39 AM	This one is CoCo all over, right? http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html The entire comic is wonderful to anyone who's every played D&D, and that one is no exception.
NiQil 05-24-07, 11:55 AM	So I thought I would start this here and see what the opinions are... Seeing how all of my arena characters are currently psionic, I have been going over the psionic rules and I think I have come up with something that might need a houserule, as it relates to how psionics interact with the 3FC. Currently, the psionic rules state that in order to regain psionic focus, you must have a pp reserve of at least 1 pp with which to meditate to regain focus. As it stands right now, this means that a psionic character can blow all of his allotted pp in both his first and second matches, and still have pp to regain focus with, because he has not run out of pp for the day. It is only in fight 3 of the 3FC that a psionic character is ever in danger of not being able to regain focus. This makes any feat that depends on psionic focus (Psionic Shot and Psionic Weapon immediately come to mind) very powerful, as you only have to be concerned with lack of pp in 1 of your 3 matches. What I would like to propose is a houserule that states that in order for a psionic character to be able to regain focus, they must have at least 1 pp available of the allotment of pp available to them in any given match. So if a psychic warrior has the ability to spend 2 pp in fight one, 3 pp in fight 2 and 3 pp in fight 3, he would need to have at least 1 pp available from each of those allotments each week in order to be able to regain focus. So if the example warrior spends 2 pp in fight one, then he loses his focus for that fight, and cannot regain it. If he only uses 1 pp, then he is able to use and regain focus normally, and that 1 pp would carry over to the fight 2 allotment as normal. I realize that this is a nerf to psionic characters, but I feel that it it brings psionic focus more in line with the spirit of the 3FC. Thoughts?
McJarvis 05-24-07, 12:05 PM	Thoughts? The 3FC is supposed to simulate a "day of adventuring". At tabletop a character wouldn't need to be concerned about foci until the very end of the day-> it should be the same here. The 1/3 rule is merely a device by which we force people to save pp-> not simulate them being on their "last fight of the day" every fight.
NiQil 05-24-07, 12:07 PM	The 3FC is supposed to simulate a "day of adventuring". At tabletop a character wouldn't need to be concerned about foci until the very end of the day-> it should be the same here. The 1/3 rule is merely a device by which we force people to save pp-> not simulate them being on their "last fight of the day" every fight. True...but at the same time we nerf x/day abilities this way. A Xeph's racial Burst ability is useable 3 times a day, but only once per fight (unless you don't use it in one match and carry it backwards). There is no restriction on this being used multiple times per battle, so why should this ability be limited to once per fight, while psionic focus is not? Edit: Believe me....I am fine with the focus rules as is, since that is where my interests currently lie. But the fairness police in me can't help but bring it up.
Usurpator 05-24-07, 12:08 PM	I realize that this is a nerf to psionic characters, but I feel that it it brings psionic focus more in line with the spirit of the 3FC. Thoughts? I'm still in favor of dropping the 1/3rd rule entirely, which should solve your problem. Currently we still have cases of people able to (and going) 'Nova', which was the reason for the restriction. Currently Flamehair faces Zodiac, who has 20 of 30 spell levels available in his second fight, because he surrendered the first fight. How is that fair against someone who did use up his/her alloted number of spells/pp in the first match? Also, everyone is perfectly fine with an 'expendables nova' on the first match. Then why not a 'spells/powers' nova. Gladiator A uses both spells and melee abilities to gain victory. Gladiator M is a melee character, gladiator S is a spell character. Gladiator A faces M in the first match. He rather use up all his spells to gain the upper hand, and save the melee for a more vulnerable character, but he is prevented to do so. In the third match he faces gladiator S, against which the spells he had to 'save' are less helpful, and he just needs his melee abilities. Gladiator B also uses both spells and melee abilities. He also faces gladiators S and M, only in the reverse order. He saves his spells against S, and then goes 'nova' on M in the final match. He has it much easier, despite fighting the same opponents in the same league. Can anybody explain to me how this is fair?
NiQil 05-24-07, 12:13 PM	I'm still in favor of dropping the 1/3rd rule entirely, which should solve your problem. Currently we still have cases of people able to (and going) 'Nova', which was the reason for the restriction. Currently Flamehair faces Zodiac, who has 20 of 30 spell levels available in his second fight, because he surrendered the first fight. How is that fair against someone who did use up his/her alloted number of spells/pp in the first match? Also, everyone is perfectly fine with an 'expendables nova' on the first match. Then why not a 'spells/powers' nova. Gladiator A uses both spells and melee abilities to gain victory. Gladiator M is a melee character, gladiator S is a spell character. Gladiator A faces M in the first match. He rather use up all his spells to gain the upper hand, and save the melee for a more vulnerable character, but he is prevented to do so. In the third match he faces gladiator S, against which the spells he had to 'save' are less helpful, and he just needs his melee abilities. Gladiator B also uses both spells and melee abilities. He also faces gladiators S and M, only in the reverse order. He saves his spells against S, and then goes 'nova' on M in the final match. He has it much easier, despite fighting the same opponents in the same league. Can anybody explain to me how this is fair? Well since that wasn't my proposal, that doesn't really answer my question. I fought harder than anyone to not institute the 3FC. I argued with Cat about it for a couple of weeks. But even I have to admit that it has helped things from how they were before it came about.
Usurpator 05-24-07, 12:13 PM	The 3FC is supposed to simulate a "day of adventuring". At tabletop a character wouldn't need to be concerned about foci until the very end of the day-> it should be the same here. The 1/3 rule is merely a device by which we force people to save pp-> not simulate them being on their "last fight of the day" every fight. In a tabletop situation every fight is potentially your 'last fight of the day', you use exactly as many powers as you think you need to win. The only thing the 1/3rd rule does is prevent 'foolish' gladiators from going Nova in the first fight, but still allowing them to do so in the last fight.
Usurpator 05-24-07, 12:18 PM	Well since that wasn't my proposal, that doesn't really answer my question. I fought harder than anyone to not institute the 3FC. I argued with Cat about it for a couple of weeks. But even I have to admit that it has helped things from how they were before it came about. I don't have a direct answer tou your question: you are asking me if we should people to death by fire or by drowning, while I'm against the death penalty altogether. Therefore I find it difficult to answer. I guess I'm neutral to your rule, which means I'm against introducing it, since in neutral cases it's better not to change rules. I thought the 3FC was a fine idea in concept. I had some complaints about the original rules Cat throught up. Almost all my objections have been honored in the meantime (some took longer than others), except for the 1/3rd rule. I don't think the 1/3rd rule is neccessary, but then again, I could be wrong....
NiQil 05-24-07, 12:22 PM	I don't have a direct answer tou your question: you are asking me if we should people to death by fire or by drowning, while I'm against the death penalty altogether. Therefore I find it difficult to answer. I guess I'm neutral to your rule, which means I'm against introducing it, since in neutral cases it's better not to change rules. I thought the 3FC was a fine idea in concept. I had some complaints about the original rules Cat throught up. Almost all my objections have been honored in the meantime (some took longer than others), except for the 1/3rd rule. I don't think the 1/3rd rule is neccessary, but then again, I could be wrong.... Then the 3FC is not what you should be arguing against, but rather the 1/3 rule. Removing the 1/3 rule would not change the 3FC other than removing the limits on what can be spent per fight. You would still have 3 fights to go through before you can refresh spells/pp or craft or anything. Which, btw, I would be against. The 1/3 rule is what makes melee characters semi-viable in this environment, in my eyes. It also gives you a reasonable idea of what you can expect and plan for in a match, rather than having to come up with that many more 'what ifs' in tactics.
TelinArtho 05-24-07, 12:27 PM	I would tend to agree with McJ - the ability to use your focus throughout the day in a regular campaign really isn't limited, except when you run out of PPs - which ideally is the last fight of your "working day" anyway. Also - it is possible to drain someone's PP to zero either through power usage or through enervation, etc. so it can happen that someone gets down to 0 before the 3rd fight.
Usurpator 05-24-07, 12:29 PM	Then the 3FC is not what you should be arguing against, but rather the 1/3 rule. Removing the 1/3 rule would not change the 3FC other than removing the limits on what can be spent per fight. You would still have 3 fights to go through before you can refresh spells/pp or craft or anything. Which, btw, I would be against. The 1/3 rule is what makes melee characters semi-viable in this environment, in my eyes. It also gives you a reasonable idea of what you can expect and plan for in a match, rather than having to come up with that many more 'what ifs' in tactics. You still have to 'what if' all the expendables and all possible combinations. Any you still may need to 'what if' more in the second and last fights. Can you try to explain why melee characters are more viable when casters are restricted to the 1/3rd rule? Because I don't see it. BTW, not in favor of overturning the 1/3rd rule anytime soon, since it's not that big a problem....
Zevox 05-24-07, 12:33 PM	I'm still in favor of dropping the 1/3rd rule entirely, which should solve your problem. So am I, but it appears MWB agrees with Cat about the usefulness of keeping the 1/3 even with the 3FC, so no luck there. Heres another example of a 3rd fight nova character - Ceilia Durrol used very few spells in her first two fights. Just two 1st level spells in her first fight (which she recovered with 2 pearls of power) and her Silence spell in her second. Now, when she activates next week, she has every one of her spells except Silence available for that one match - 39 SLs. And most of them, if she doesn't happen to have a use for, she can convert to an Inflict spell, giving her a lot of damage potential just there. Then there was the famous event of Istima Telarc's FFA with Monsiuer Hood and Ihdald Seaslash. He had surrendered his first fight in order to prevent it from going into its fourth week of hold overs, then in his second used up a meager 16 pp and leveled up in the process. Which left him with 64 of his new total of 80 pp to blow in that one battle alone. Needless to say, he won. Zevox
Usurpator 05-24-07, 12:41 PM	Then there was the famous event of Istima Telarc's FFA with Monsiuer Hood and Ihdald Seaslash. He had surrendered his first fight in order to prevent it from going into its fourth week of hold overs, then in his second used up a meager 16 pp and leveled up in the process. Which left him with 64 of his new total of 80 pp to blow in that one battle alone. Needless to say, he won. It is indeed a bit weird that you can do a 'tactical' surrender to gain an advantage in a later fight. I don't think gladiators should actually benefit from surrendering (like Maven did before) or that it should even be a tactical option. But as I said, the 1/3rd rule doesn't prevent characters from going 'Nova', it just prevents them doing such in the first fight. If your matches are stacked right, you can benefit, if not, you might suffer from the 1/3rd rule. Maybe surrendering characters should lose 1/3rd of the spells/pp/limited abilities? P.S. I understand why Cat was a bit scared of letting go of the 1/3rd rule. With the popularity of his characters, other gladiator's probably wouldn't mind going 'Nova' on them at the expense of losing the subsequent one or two other fights. A justified concern I think, if a bit self-serving.
templer10 05-24-07, 12:45 PM	It is indeed a bit weird that you can do a 'tactical' surrender to gain an advantage in a later fight. I don't think gladiators should actually benefit from surrendering (like Maven did before) or that it should even be a tactical option. But as I said, the 1/3rd rule doesn't prevent characters from going 'Nova', it just prevents them doing such in the first fight. P.S. I understand why Cat was a bit scared of letting go of the 1/3rd rule. With the popularity of his characters, other gladiator's probably wouldn't mind going 'Nova' on them at the expense of losing the subsequent one or two other fights. A justified concern I think, if a bit self-serving. If your matches are stacked right, you can benefit, if not, you might suffer from the 1/3rd rule. Maybe surrendering characters should lose 1/3rd of the spells/pp/limited abilities? bad idea i think - not every match CAN be won - why penilize the loser if he wants to save himself the resources?
Usurpator 05-24-07, 12:47 PM	bad idea i think - not every match CAN be won - why penilize the loser if he wants to save himself the resources? I propose it because if you don't penalize the 'loser' you will penalize his next opponent instead. If anyone should be penalized, it should be the loser, and not his next opponent. It's also about fair play really. Which why my characters will always try to do their utmost to win, and never surrender. I believe I owe it to the next gladiator that will fight my opponent. And that was why I absolutely hated the 'Maven abuse'. She didn't just benefit herself, she also penalized the gladiators to whom she surrendered, putting gladiators that didn't face her at a relative disadvantage.
Zevox 05-24-07, 12:51 PM	Maybe surrendering characters should lose 1/3rd of the spells/pp/limited abilities? Eh, I think thats a bit extreme. Most of the time I don't see characters using every single spell/pp they're allowed to win a fight anyway (see again my Ceilia example - except for a miniquest a couple of levels ago, she hasn't ever lost, yet she wound up in this situation nonetheless). Besides, how would you fairly decide what spells they lose for spellcasters? Which spell levels they lose for Sorcerers and Bards? Zevox
Usurpator 05-24-07, 12:54 PM	Eh, I think thats a bit extreme. Most of the time I don't see characters using every single spell/pp they're allowed to win a fight anyway (see again my Ceilia example - except for a miniquest a couple of levels ago, she hasn't ever lost, yet she wound up in this situation nonetheless). Besides, how would you fairly decide what spells they lose for spellcasters? Which spell levels they lose for Sorcerers and Bards? Zevox You are probably right, it was not really a serious well-thought out suggestion. And it is also curing a symptom, and not the cause....
Khaim 05-24-07, 01:03 PM	What if you applied the 1/3 rule to carried over spells/pp? Example: I have 30 pp, or 10 pp/fight. In my first fight I only use 2pp. Under the current rules I have 18pp for the second fight, nearly double my normal. If I only use 3pp for that fight, I have a full 25pp to use for fight 3. If we apply 1/3 to carryovers, I would carry 8/3 = 3pp to fight 2, giving me 13pp- a bit more, but not that much. If I still only use 3pp there, I carry over 10/3 = 4pp to fight 3, giving me 14pp. I still have 11pp "left over" for the day, but I can't use it. Doing this would let you carry through some of your power if you don't use it all, but won't let you get truly ridiculous amounts to nova with in fight 3. If you use nothing in fights 1 and 2, you'll have roughly half of your strength for fight 3, which is a mere 1/6 more than you normally would. Significant but nowhere near broken.
SoulLord 05-24-07, 04:17 PM	1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10... Nerfing more and more and more the wizards is not the solution. I hate the 1/3 rule of the 3FC, I would be more than happy to get rid of it. I'ts an artificial handicap that you won't see anywhere else
Khaim 05-24-07, 06:59 PM	1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10... Nerfing more and more and more the wizards is not the solution. I hate the 1/3 rule of the 3FC, I would be more than happy to get rid of it. I'ts an artificial handicap that you won't see anywhere else Well, everything I know about D&D says that casters win. That's in normal games, by the way, not duels. In duels casters win even more because they can nova- a caster's burst damage is truly insane, even if they're not built for it. If they are, well... It's a balance issue, and one I fully agree with. Admittedly I'm new here, but I can't imagine the kinds of craziness that went on when a wizard would blow all her spells on fight 1, blast her opponent into dust, and then auto-lose the next two fights. That's no fun for any of her opponents, although the second two are at least glad for the auto-win.
templer10 05-24-07, 07:12 PM	1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10... Nerfing more and more and more the wizards is not the solution. I hate the 1/3 rule of the 3FC, I would be more than happy to get rid of it. I'ts an artificial handicap that you won't see anywhere else the 1/3 rule in fact DOES exsit in a normal d&d game- it's simply self inflicted - i always play spellcaster/manifester of some kind in P&P d&d and i never ever ever blow all my spells in 1 fight, doing that is simply asking to lose to the next guy that comes along, the 1/3 rule simply impose that sensible precation on an artificial enviorment to prevent people from novaing for 1 fight and auto losing the other 2. btw peeps not wanting to get novaed IS a valid reason for this rule since people do spend quite a bit of time and effort into chars and want to see them win not get taken out by some trigger happy maniac who acted completely without sense just so he could take some famous char (And iam speaking as someone who gets annoyed if his chars lose more then once and tend to retire the char as faulty if they lose more then 2 or 3 times). even today - you can still get unlucky and get novaed - it's simply less likely and there is no reason to make it even easier. but btw there is no reason to nerf spellcasters and make them lose spells they didnt actually use first since if all you did is lose 2 fights, win last 1 very quickly other peeps in that league will learn about it and preapere for it and second that for spellcasters that need to memorize spells there is no fair way to "choose" which spells to take away.
Rauul 05-24-07, 07:38 PM	Graashnak moves up to ECL 5.. anyone care to see if i messed up anything with adding a level of ranger... Oh and Templar.. his pps is fixed!
templer10 05-24-07, 07:45 PM	Graashnak moves up to ECL 5.. anyone care to see if i messed up anything with adding a level of ranger... Oh and Templar.. his pps is fixed! HP is wrong - 10 + 4.5X3+5.5+5X2=39
Rauul 05-24-07, 07:54 PM	HP is wrong - 10 + 4.5X3+5.5+5X2=39 thanks 10+5.5+(4.5x3)+10= 39 (forgot the con +2 and the .5 from fighter 2)
hogarth 05-24-07, 08:03 PM	It's a balance issue, and one I fully agree with. Admittedly I'm new here, but I can't imagine the kinds of craziness that went on when a wizard would blow all her spells on fight 1, blast her opponent into dust, and then auto-lose the next two fights. That's no fun for any of her opponents, although the second two are at least glad for the auto-win. You should read some of those early caster vs. caster fights; they're kind of wild 'n' wooly all right! My two cents: As long as we keep at least one of the 1/3 Rule or the 3FC, I'm happy.
hogarth 05-24-07, 08:23 PM	Clenched in his jaws was my idea. Part of the problem of the Blink Dog, no prehensile appendages really. Command word, what command word? If it doesn't say otherwise, a command word is needed: Command Word If no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it. Command word activation means that a character speaks the word and the item activates. No other special knowledge is needed. Since the Rod of Wonder doesn't state a specific activation method (other than noting a standard action is needed), I'd assume a command word is required. I could be wrong, though.
templer10 05-24-07, 08:26 PM	If it doesn't say otherwise, a command word is needed: Since the Rod of Wonder doesn't state a specific activation method (other than noting a standard action is needed), I'd assume a command word is required. I could be wrong, though. there is a fairly wasy way to get around that - Blink dogs can speak their own languge (so say the SRD) have said crafter of said rod of wonder craft it to do the command wonder in the blink dog languge. i dont think it should even be considered custom item.
hogarth 05-24-07, 08:47 PM	there is a fairly wasy way to get around that - Blink dogs can speak their own languge (so say the SRD) have said crafter of said rod of wonder craft it to do the command wonder in the blink dog languge. i dont think it should even be considered custom item. It's not that -- it's just that the idea of holding a magic item in your mouth and mumbling the command word seems a bit silly. Can mages stuff a couple of extra wands in their mouth too, if their hands are full?
NiQil 05-24-07, 08:58 PM	Alright...so I have been tossing around a way to get flight from the half-dragon template... The idea I have is to make a melee monster. It would end up as a half-dragon ogre Half-Dragon Paragon 3/Fighter or Barbarian 8 (haven't decided yet..also might combine the two). It would have to start at ECL 9 with only it's racial HD at the very minimum, due to the total +5 LA. But for that, I will have a minimum Str score of 26 before ever spending any points in the point buy at creation. I will have flight 80 ft (average), reach, a breath weapon, natural armor +9 (+10 when the HDP is completed), 2 claws and a bite attack. Thoughts/suggestions?
Zevox 05-24-07, 09:12 PM	Admittedly I'm new here, but I can't imagine the kinds of craziness that went on when a wizard would blow all her spells on fight 1, blast her opponent into dust, and then auto-lose the next two fights. That's no fun for any of her opponents, although the second two are at least glad for the auto-win. That never happened. We've never had the 3 fight cycle without the 1/3 rule, just the reverse. There was a time before either existed, when every fight a caster fought they got their full spell allotment. Needless to say, that period was why we created those two rules. Zevox
Yitzi 05-24-07, 11:51 PM	A few questions regarding the use of Read Magic to decipher scrolls: 1. If you use it in the middle of a 3FC, do you actually have to spend the slot, or is it like slots spent in scribing scrolls-since they're not actually in the arena, they don't count? 2. Can you use it between cycles without it counting toward the limit in either cycle, even if you don't take a week off? Or is the rule "1 day's spells per 3 weeks, the rest can't be used at all"? 3. It says you can read 1 page (250 words) a minute, how many scrolls to the page? Or does it depend on the number/levels of spells per scroll?
SauroGrenom 05-24-07, 11:55 PM	That never happened. We've never had the 3 fight cycle without the 1/3 rule, just the reverse. There was a time before either existed, when every fight a caster fought they got their full spell allotment. Needless to say, that period was why we created those two rules. Zevox There was even a time (before me) where the casters didn't have to list their prepared spells before the battle. That was sent with tactics to the pitlord. That period of time also lead to some restrictions.
SauroGrenom 05-25-07, 12:07 AM	Alright...so I have been tossing around a way to get flight from the half-dragon template... The idea I have is to make a melee monster. It would end up as a half-dragon ogre Half-Dragon Paragon 3/Fighter or Barbarian 8 (haven't decided yet..also might combine the two). It would have to start at ECL 9 with only it's racial HD at the very minimum, due to the total +5 LA. But for that, I will have a minimum Str score of 26 before ever spending any points in the point buy at creation. I will have flight 80 ft (average), reach, a breath weapon, natural armor +9 (+10 when the HDP is completed), 2 claws and a bite attack. Thoughts/suggestions?My favorite Half Dragon Melee character is the Half Red Dragon Treant (or use any fire breathing dragon). The strength is crazy high (+26 racial bonus), you get a great Con bonus (for the save dc on breath weapon), you are Huge, there is a +17 natural armor, you have a crazy full attack sequence and you get all the plant immunities as a special quality. Bring along some feather token trees, and you have a party with your cheap instant allies... With LA and racial HD it's ECL 15 to start... I looked at the Half-Dragon Ogre in the past. I also liked the Half-Dragon Centaur more. The Centaur has a higher speed, better saves and BAB, weapon proficiencies, natural attacks and better racial stats, but only 5' reach and a lower natural armor (although dex more than makes up for it). Depending on what you want and need for the build, Centaur is sometimes better as a base creature.
Usurpator 05-25-07, 03:01 AM	If it doesn't say otherwise, a command word is needed: Since the Rod of Wonder doesn't state a specific activation method (other than noting a standard action is needed), I'd assume a command word is required. I could be wrong, though. It does say otherwise, in the Rods description, where it states that Rods mention their activation with the specific Rods themselves. Some rods have very specifically mentioned that they need a command word, others are use-activated, others you need merely 'point'. If it needed a command word, why would they mention it with some rods, and omit it with this one? You could be be right, but there is just no way to say for sure.
Usurpator 05-25-07, 03:07 AM	It's not that -- it's just that the idea of holding a magic item in your mouth and mumbling the command word seems a bit silly. Can mages stuff a couple of extra wands in their mouth too, if their hands are full? Well, technically you don't need hands to use a rod and it also doesn't mention you need to 'point' it, so I could just strap it to the Blink Dog's body (or even have it in a backpack) and use it like that. But personally I think that is even more silly. Simply the rules are not written clearly, let alone for non-human users. A rod of absorption suggests only people with hands can use it to absord energy. That clearly seems not the intention.
Usurpator 05-25-07, 03:14 AM	It's a balance issue, and one I fully agree with. Admittedly I'm new here, but I can't imagine the kinds of craziness that went on when a wizard would blow all her spells on fight 1, blast her opponent into dust, and then auto-lose the next two fights. That's no fun for any of her opponents, although the second two are at least glad for the auto-win. I still don't get it. You don't mind if a caster chooses to lose the first two matches and then uses all his power to go Nova in the last, but *do* mind if he choses to go Nova in the first and then loses the last two matches. Is the first match different in value than the last match to you emotionally that you make that difference? The 3FC already takes care of the need for casters to spread around their spell power (similar to a tabletop game). And since characters that that have their first fight can face characters that are on their third fight, I don't see the problem. Just imagine melee characters only allowed to use 1/3rd of their hit points, but adding any left-over hit points to next fight. That would be just weird.
templer10 05-25-07, 06:15 AM	Alright...so I have been tossing around a way to get flight from the half-dragon template... The idea I have is to make a melee monster. It would end up as a half-dragon ogre Half-Dragon Paragon 3/Fighter or Barbarian 8 (haven't decided yet..also might combine the two). It would have to start at ECL 9 with only it's racial HD at the very minimum, due to the total +5 LA. But for that, I will have a minimum Str score of 26 before ever spending any points in the point buy at creation. I will have flight 80 ft (average), reach, a breath weapon, natural armor +9 (+10 when the HDP is completed), 2 claws and a bite attack. Thoughts/suggestions? ill do you 1 better which i actually thought as a concept to myself - a centaur half dragon - the centaur gives +8 Str, +4 con/dex, +2 int, -2 wisdon, +4 NA, +4 BaB - and 2 hooves as natural attacks. when coupled with half dragon you can start with ECL 8 instead of 9 almost the same STR, better AC due to the centaurs higher Dex, better BaB and 2! more natural attacks- giving it a ruitine of claw/claw/hoof/hoof/bite since the half dragon gives the claw claw bite but it doesnt eliminate exsisting natural attacks. the only real benefit ogre has over centaur is that ogre has 10 natural reach.
templer10 05-25-07, 06:25 AM	I still don't get it. You don't mind if a caster chooses to lose the first two matches and then uses all his power to go Nova in the last, but *do* mind if he choses to go Nova in the first and then loses the last two matches. Is the first match different in value than the last match to you emotionally that you make that difference? The 3FC already takes care of the need for casters to spread around their spell power (similar to a tabletop game). And since characters that that have their first fight can face characters that are on their third fight, I don't see the problem. Just imagine melee characters only allowed to use 1/3rd of their hit points, but adding any left-over hit points to next fight. That would be just weird. the idia behind it at least at ECL 3 is that the 1/3 rule wont allow someone to make a char for 1 battle throw all the spells at some poor fellow then retire that char after that 1 battle essentially losing nothing and giving the other guy an undeserved loss. for higher ECL's usually there are much less matches so it's a lot less difficult to know to a certein degree who's the match up going to be against so if he is known to be "hoarding" spells until the last fight you dont have to spend a lot yourself. also once the 1/3 rule is in place nobody really has an INTREST in going nova in the third fight since nobody in higher ECLs really LIKE to lose 2 fights in order to be able to "auto win" the third fight - frankly becuase you might get a pushover in that last fight you could have won with 1/6 of your spells with and you might get someone so hard you cant do anything about him even with all of your spells (say fighting agains a zookeeper in the plains). you can call that 1/3 rule - a way for the game to keep you from ding something stupid for the sake of personal glory. (ie, saying i won against the unbeatble char XXX)
McJarvis 05-25-07, 07:10 AM	Alright...so I have been tossing around a way to get flight from the half-dragon template... The idea I have is to make a melee monster. It would end up as a half-dragon ogre Half-Dragon Paragon 3/Fighter or Barbarian 8 (haven't decided yet..also might combine the two). It would have to start at ECL 9 with only it's racial HD at the very minimum, due to the total +5 LA. But for that, I will have a minimum Str score of 26 before ever spending any points in the point buy at creation. I will have flight 80 ft (average), reach, a breath weapon, natural armor +9 (+10 when the HDP is completed), 2 claws and a bite attack. Thoughts/suggestions? I've been thinking about this too. I'd go with a Half-Red Dragon Ogre Mage(Or troll-> but I think the stats on the mage are worth +1 LA) with a Cleric cohort to cast spell immunity//protection from Acid on me. High ECL(15)[Welcome to frozen country: would you like a campaign with that?], but you're practically unkillable.
Khaim 05-25-07, 08:12 AM	I still don't get it. You don't mind if a caster chooses to lose the first two matches I never said that. In fact, my suggestion to only allow 1/3 carryover would nearly eliminate that possibility. You're right: casters going nova is not fun. That said, sometimes a caster's only tactical option is to throw down as many spells as possible and pray the opponent can't base him. It's a fine line between the two, but there is a line.
templer10 05-25-07, 08:35 AM	I never said that. In fact, my suggestion to only allow 1/3 carryover would nearly eliminate that possibility. You're right: casters going nova is not fun. That said, sometimes a caster's only tactical option is to throw down as many spells as possible and pray the opponent can't base him. It's a fine line between the two, but there is a line. your suggestion is completly unusable - who would decide which spells to "lose" despite not having actaully used them- spelsl arent chosen at random you know. and yes there is the diffrence between going nova on the first part of the 1/3 to going nova in the last part of the 1/3. the diffrence is - if someone reall wants to lose 2 battles in order to "autowin" the last battle he should be made to work for it, i.e. - lose the 2 battles first. second - most peeps even if they dont want 2 WILL use some of thier spells in the first 2 fights so it will be much harder to get to that situation of using nothing in the first 2 fights then peeps think. third- if someone on purpose isnt using anything for first 2 fights - peeps will notice and know to be preapered for next time they fight that guy so they will be saving more spells 2.
McJarvis 05-25-07, 08:56 AM	RE: 1/3 Rule: Look, here's the skinny on why it's really there: It's to keep people from going nova against specific opponents. If you choose to lose your first two fights to go Nova that's fine-> you made your choice before the pairings were rolled. However, if the 1/3 rule was not around you could decide to go Nova on the first fight of the cycle just because you wanted to be the one to kill one of those "unbeatable" characters out there. This applies to many of Cat's former characters, but also to new breeds of perfect-record foes. It is unfair the the undefeated characters to have to worry about someone nova'ing against them every other battle. At least with expendible nova-ing the character, in theory the character is hurting himself in order to accomplish it. All other arguements, while perhaps valid reasons to put up or remove the 1/3 arguement, are not the prime reason we have it. ~McJ~
templer10 05-25-07, 08:58 AM	RE: 1/3 Rule: Look, here's the skinny on why it's really there: It's to keep people from going nova against specific opponents. If you choose to lose your first two fights to go Nova that's fine-> you made your choice before the pairings were rolled. However, if the 1/3 rule was not around you could decide to go Nova on the first fight of the cycle just because you wanted to be the one to kill one of those "unbeatable" characters out there. This applies to many of Cat's former characters, but also to new breeds of perfect-record foes. It is unfair the the undefeated characters to have to worry about someone nova'ing against them every other battle. At least with expendible nova-ing the character, in theory the character is hurting himself in order to accomplish it. All other arguements, while perhaps valid reasons to put up or remove the 1/3 arguement, are not the prime reason we have it. ~McJ~ true enough - and a good reason on it's own.
Rauul 05-25-07, 09:19 AM	Well here is the problem i have with the 3fc.. 3 battles = 1 day yet we are suppost to be 1 day = 1 day.. so a person crafts items 18,000 gp worth takes 3 weeks (1000 gp per day) yet for the others active that same 3 weeks is 1 day.. As for the Going Nova on an Undefeated character.. well if they want to stay undefeated they better figure out ways to stay that way.. Or they can ride the Nimbus just like they have sent their enemies before them.. But honestly.. The main reason i don't like the 3fc or even the 1/3 rule.. is because it someone telling me how i HAVE to play MY character. Starting Out - Time Progression The city of Gladius has a real time progression... mostly. When a character is in the middle of a fight cycle (see Battles of Gladius -> The 3-Fight Cycle), the amount of time between battles is determined by a time roll (see Battles of Gladius II -> Pre-Fight Actions), but otherwise, time in Gladius moves at the same rate it does on Earth, meaning that one week of real time is one week of Gladius time. This is important for activities such as crafting. Quests and Campaigns are exceptions, however. Quests always take 3 weeks of real-time, but the entire quest plays out in a single day of Gladius-time. The 20 days remaining should be "padded out" by the questlord to include travel times, resting, and so on. Campaigns have their very own time progression, which tends to be a lot slower than real-time. Again, it is the campaignlord's responsibility to fix the time discrepancy once in a while. I really don't Like how 80 to 200 rds of combat (an average 3 fight cycle) is equal to 8 to 20 minutes real time is spread out over 3 weeks to equal 1 day.. Shrug.. i say let the casters Go nova in 1 fight then die the next 2.. or just get rid of the 3fc and go with 1 fight = 1 day... Make those Undefeated characters EARN that title.. and not have rules made for them to keep it.. Luck or Skill is the Question...
TelinArtho 05-25-07, 09:46 AM	There's another aspect to the 3FC here that I think is missing in the current discussion. Fun. While it might be fun - for you - to burn all of your spells in your first fight because you have no desire to continue the character or because you are willing to "take a hit" to lose the next fights - it is no fun to your opponents (in either the first week where he "autolooses" (yes I know its not a guarantee) or in the next two weeks where the opponent "autowins" (and yes I know its not a guarantee). If this game becomes all about "you" it might not be fun for the rest of "us." The 3FC helps "simulate" a regular day and the 1/3 rules helps "keep the fun in" for the people who are just trying to get by. @Rauul - this isn't about telling you how to play your characters. This is a game and if it ceases to be fun for everyone but you - then even you won't be able to play.
Yitzi 05-25-07, 10:39 AM	A few questions regarding the use of Read Magic to decipher scrolls: 1. If you use it in the middle of a 3FC, do you actually have to spend the slot, or is it like slots spent in scribing scrolls-since they're not actually in the arena, they don't count? 2. Can you use it between cycles without it counting toward the limit in either cycle, even if you don't take a week off? Or is the rule "1 day's spells per 3 weeks, the rest can't be used at all"? 3. It says you can read 1 page (250 words) a minute, how many scrolls to the page? Or does it depend on the number/levels of spells per scroll? Bump
Hirumajoe 05-25-07, 10:47 AM	Physical Description A scroll is a heavy sheet of fine vellum or high-quality paper. An area about 8 ˝ inches wide and 11 inches long is sufficient to hold one spell. The sheet is reinforced at the top and bottom with strips of leather slightly longer than the sheet is wide. A scroll holding more than one spell has the same width (about 8 ˝ inches) but is an extra foot or so long for each extra spell. Scrolls that hold three or more spells are usually fitted with reinforcing rods at each end rather than simple strips of leather. A scroll has AC 9, 1 hit point, hardness 0, and a break DC of 8. To protect it from wrinkling or tearing, a scroll is rolled up from both ends to form a double cylinder. (This also helps the user unroll the scroll quickly.) The scroll is placed in a tube of ivory, jade, leather, metal, or wood. Most scroll cases are inscribed with magic symbols which often identify the owner or the spells stored on the scrolls inside. The symbols often hide magic traps. Activation To activate a scroll, a spellcaster must read the spell written on it. Doing so involves several steps and conditions. Decipher the Writing The writing on a scroll must be deciphered before a character can use it or know exactly what spell it contains. This requires a read magic spell or a successful Spellcraft check (DC 20 + spell level). Deciphering a scroll to determine its contents does not activate its magic unless it is a specially prepared cursed scroll. A character can decipher the writing on a scroll in advance so that he or she can proceed directly to the next step when the time comes to use the scroll. 1) Given that in general you can't acquire scrolls in the middle of the 3FC (since any scrolls scribed in the middle of the 3FC aren't available until the end of the 3FC), I'd suggest its a moot point. Only way I could see that happening is if it was a reward on a quest. At which point, yes, you'd need to use the slot. 2) If its cast between 3FC, it shouldn't count against either limit. 3) The physical description is listed in the quote above. 8-1/2" wide by 11" for the first spell + 12" per additional spell. So looks like 1 standard page per spell.
Hirumajoe 05-25-07, 11:06 AM	Shed Body (Su) Starting at 2nd level, a psion uncarnate can become incorporeal (or “uncarnate”) once per day as a standard action. The character can remain uncarnate for up to 1 minute. During this time, the character’s body fades into an immaterial form that retains the character’s basic likeness. While uncarnate, the character gains the incorporeal subtype (see below). He gains a fly speed equal to his land speed (perfect maneuverability). His material armor remains in place and continues to provide its armor bonus to AC (see Uncarnate Armor, above). His material weapons also remain corporeal. Losing his physical form allows the character to more easily access his mental abilities, and he gains a +1 bonus on all save DCs for powers he manifests while uncarnate. He can use equipment normally, deriving benefits from items that enhance his capabilities; however, all his equipment remains material even when the character is uncarnate (but see the assume equipment ability, described below). Often, a psion uncarnate appears almost like a ghost wearing items of the material world. This doesn’t make his equipment more susceptible to attack (the normal rules for attended objects apply), but it does make it impossible for the character to enter or pass through solid objects while wearing solid equipment. If he drops his material equipment, he can pass through solid objects at will as described below. At 6th level and higher, a psion uncarnate can shed his body twice per day for up to 1 minute each time. Incorporeal Subtype An incorporeal psion uncarnate has no physical body. He can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. He is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, he has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons). An incorporeal psion uncarnate has no natural armor bonus—and, unlike other incorporeal creatures, does not gain a deflection bonus from his Charisma modifier. An incorporeal psion uncarnate can enter or pass through solid objects (subject to the restrictions described in the shed body and assume equipment abilities), but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than his own. He can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to his current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal psion uncarnate that is inside an object. To see farther from the object he is in and attack normally, the incorporeal psion uncarnate must emerge. An incorporeal psion uncarnate inside an object has total cover, but when he attacks a creature outside the object he only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at him as he attacks. An incorporeal psion uncarnate cannot pass through a force effect. An incorporeal psion uncarnate’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects work normally against him. He can pass through and operate in water as easily as he does in air. An incorporeal psion uncarnate cannot fall or take falling damage. He cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can he be tripped or grappled. In fact, he cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor is he subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight. An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn’t wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to both its melee attack rolls and its ranged attack rolls. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see. Assume Equipment (Su) Beginning at 3rd level, a psion uncarnate can designate a number of pieces of his worn equipment (including armor and weapons) equal to his psion uncarnate level to become incorporeal when he uses his shed body ability. This has no effect on the equipment’s function, but now when the psion uncarnate is incorporeal, he can enter or pass through solid objects while wearing nothing other than the designated equipment. Once designated, the equipment automatically changes to incorporeal when the character sheds his body, and it returns to corporeality when the character does. The character can change his designations as he desires. Out of curiosity, how would people interprete the above abilities of the Psion Uncarnate? 1)Does an incorpreal psion incarnate's material weapon (no assume equipment) ignore natural armor, armor and shields? What if he does use assume equipment and it becomes incorporeal? 2) Could an incorporeal Psion Uncarnate manifest Ectoplasmic Cocoon on an enemy, and attack through the cocoon since its an object and he can pass through solid objects? Can he stick his head into the cocoon so he can avoid the 50% miss chance? Could he coup de grace such an opponent with an Assumed Equipment Bow? How about his normal incorpreal touch attack? Could he move into the same square (and does that make a different to the above answers?) Can he manifest a power on the helpless target inside the cocoon (or would he need to use Burrow Power to do so)? 3) The free designating objects as his assumed equipment targets - can he only do that while corporeal, or could he choose to add something while incorporeal. Say a helpless opponent's magic sword?
Yitzi 05-25-07, 11:15 AM	[QUOTE=Hirumajoe;12497572 1) Given that in general you can't acquire scrolls in the middle of the 3FC (since any scrolls scribed in the middle of the 3FC aren't available until the end of the 3FC), I'd suggest its a moot point. Only way I could see that happening is if it was a reward on a quest. [/QUOTE] Or if you leveled up and got read magic in the middle of the 3FC. But thanks for the answers.
SoulLord 05-25-07, 11:15 AM	Fun Nerfs are not fun. I'm sure the rogue builds are waiting to see when we'll get rid of the autospot rule so they can be viable builds again.
Hirumajoe 05-25-07, 11:17 AM	Or if you leveled up and got read magic in the middle of the 3FC. But thanks for the answers. Ah, in that case, don't forget to list it as a prebuff. Since thats the only way a pitlord will know. :)
hogarth 05-25-07, 11:18 AM	Or if you leveled up and got read magic in the middle of the 3FC. But thanks for the answers. I can think of a couple more cases: using the Rob Store action to acquire a scroll, and stealing a scroll from a fallen enemy. Both cases would require Read Magic or a Spellcraft check.
MitzaVolchenko 05-25-07, 11:20 AM	Fun Nerfs are not fun. I'm sure the rogue builds are waiting to see when we'll get rid of the autospot rule so they can be viable builds again. This sniper has a plan to get around more than one aspect of that rule :)
Zevox 05-25-07, 11:31 AM	Fun Nerfs are not fun. I'm sure the rogue builds are waiting to see when we'll get rid of the autospot rule so they can be viable builds again. Autospot rule? Why would we get rid of that? Thats core. No cover/concealment, no hiding allowed, so no spot checks needed. If we want to make Rogues more viable, what we need to do away with is that damn "DC 0 listen check for any attack" house rule. Zevox
McJarvis 05-25-07, 11:38 AM	I can think of a couple more cases: using the Rob Store action to acquire a scroll, and stealing a scroll from a fallen enemy. Both cases would require Read Magic or a Spellcraft check. Rob Store assumes you know what it is you're stealing. This makes me think you actually take a 20 on spellcraft. (Because in the store itself you'd have to figure out where the "Mirror Image" scroll is before stealing it)
MindWandererB 05-25-07, 11:40 AM	Shed Body (Su) Starting at 2nd level, a psion uncarnate can become incorporeal (or “uncarnate”) once per day as a standard action. The character can remain uncarnate for up to 1 minute. During this time, the character’s body fades into an immaterial form that retains the character’s basic likeness. While uncarnate, the character gains the incorporeal subtype (see below). He gains a fly speed equal to his land speed (perfect maneuverability). His material armor remains in place and continues to provide its armor bonus to AC (see Uncarnate Armor, above). His material weapons also remain corporeal. Losing his physical form allows the character to more easily access his mental abilities, and he gains a +1 bonus on all save DCs for powers he manifests while uncarnate. He can use equipment normally, deriving benefits from items that enhance his capabilities; however, all his equipment remains material even when the character is uncarnate (but see the assume equipment ability, described below). Often, a psion uncarnate appears almost like a ghost wearing items of the material world. This doesn’t make his equipment more susceptible to attack (the normal rules for attended objects apply), but it does make it impossible for the character to enter or pass through solid objects while wearing solid equipment. If he drops his material equipment, he can pass through solid objects at will as described below. At 6th level and higher, a psion uncarnate can shed his body twice per day for up to 1 minute each time. Incorporeal Subtype An incorporeal psion uncarnate has no physical body. He can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. He is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, he has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons). An incorporeal psion uncarnate has no natural armor bonus—and, unlike other incorporeal creatures, does not gain a deflection bonus from his Charisma modifier. An incorporeal psion uncarnate can enter or pass through solid objects (subject to the restrictions described in the shed body and assume equipment abilities), but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than his own. He can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to his current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal psion uncarnate that is inside an object. To see farther from the object he is in and attack normally, the incorporeal psion uncarnate must emerge. An incorporeal psion uncarnate inside an object has total cover, but when he attacks a creature outside the object he only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at him as he attacks. An incorporeal psion uncarnate cannot pass through a force effect. An incorporeal psion uncarnate’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects work normally against him. He can pass through and operate in water as easily as he does in air. An incorporeal psion uncarnate cannot fall or take falling damage. He cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can he be tripped or grappled. In fact, he cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor is he subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight. An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn’t wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to both its melee attack rolls and its ranged attack rolls. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see. Assume Equipment (Su) Beginning at 3rd level, a psion uncarnate can designate a number of pieces of his worn equipment (including armor and weapons) equal to his psion uncarnate level to become incorporeal when he uses his shed body ability. This has no effect on the equipment’s function, but now when the psion uncarnate is incorporeal, he can enter or pass through solid objects while wearing nothing other than the designated equipment. Once designated, the equipment automatically changes to incorporeal when the character sheds his body, and it returns to corporeality when the character does. The character can change his designations as he desires. Out of curiosity, how would people interprete the above abilities of the Psion Uncarnate? 1)Does an incorpreal psion incarnate's material weapon (no assume equipment) ignore natural armor, armor and shields? What if he does use assume equipment and it becomes incorporeal? 2) Could an incorporeal Psion Uncarnate manifest Ectoplasmic Cocoon on an enemy, and attack through the cocoon since its an object and he can pass through solid objects? Can he stick his head into the cocoon so he can avoid the 50% miss chance? Could he coup de grace such an opponent with an Assumed Equipment Bow? How about his normal incorpreal touch attack? Could he move into the same square (and does that make a different to the above answers?) Can he manifest a power on the helpless target inside the cocoon (or would he need to use Burrow Power to do so)? 3) The free designating objects as his assumed equipment targets - can he only do that while corporeal, or could he choose to add something while incorporeal. Say a helpless opponent's magic sword?If the equipment is not assumed, it's material in every sense except that the incorporeal psion can still carry it. So it doesn't ignore armor. It does if it's assumed (it becomes a incorporeal touch attack). I could have sworn ectoplasm was considered a force effect, but that may have been a 3.0 thing. Unassumed equipment would not be able to penetrate it, but assumed gear would, and yes, you could CdG with an assumed weapon or incorporeal touch attack--except for this line: "The creature within the cocoon is visible only as a vague shape (substantial enough to interrupt line of sight) and cannot be directly harmed or interacted with unless the cocoon is destroyed." This suggests that the victim is in some kind of stasis while trapped, even if you have some way of physically bypassing the cocoon. Since the target is wrapped up like a mummy (not trapped in a larger space), there would be no miss chance in any event. LOS is definitely blocked, so you can't manifest powers on them (even burrowing ones). There's a section in the RotG about incorporeal creatures sharing space with corporeal ones. Note that every single piece of your equipment has to be assumed to be able to do this, though. The equipment must be chosen to be assumed when you activate your Uncarnate power. If it's not on your person when you become uncarnate, it is not affected.Fun Nerfs are not fun. I'm sure the rogue builds are waiting to see when we'll get rid of the autospot rule so they can be viable builds again."We" will not get rid of the autospot rule. 4th edition might get rid of the autospot rule, but I doubt it. You need cover or concealment to hide, that's RAW and that's the end of it--we are in fact more permissive than RAW by allowing characters to remain hidden while they move, even if they're out of cover for a square or two.
templer10 05-25-07, 11:45 AM	i wonder - if i have to run an animated object as a monster - how do i decide what exacly it is and what material it's made from? both these factors can have a huge influence on it's effectivness in combat.
McJarvis 05-25-07, 11:48 AM	we are in fact more permissive than RAW by allowing characters to remain hidden while they move, even if they're out of cover for a square or two. Do we really handle things this way? I've never run a fight that way. No cover or concealment at any point during movement=autospot, unless you're "Dashing" from cover to cover, which is covered by RAW. [1ft per rank]
Zevox 05-25-07, 11:50 AM	Do we really handle things this way? I've never run a fight that way. No cover or concealment at any point during movement=autospot, unless you're "Dashing" from cover to cover, which is covered by RAW. [1ft per rank] No, that isn't covered by RAW, thats a house rule of ours (the one MWB is referring to). In the RAW, the 1ft/rank rule applies only to moving to cover to hide after distracting an observer (usually via a bluff check). Thats it. Zevox
McJarvis 05-25-07, 11:54 AM	No, that isn't covered by RAW, thats a house rule of ours (the one MWB is referring to). In the RAW, the 1ft/rank rule applies only to moving to cover to hide after distracting an observer (usually via a bluff check). Thats it. Zevox Hum. I hadn't thought of it before(obviously)-> but the RAW actually makes more sense in this case, I think.
MitzaVolchenko 05-25-07, 11:55 AM	I need fresh PM's from everyone looking for a spot in my upcoming campaign with with their character choice(s), whether that character can be bumped to fit EL. In an ill-advised bout of board surfing on drugs (legal), I wiped everything in my in-box.
Hirumajoe 05-25-07, 12:05 PM	If the equipment is not assumed, it's material in every sense except that the incorporeal psion can still carry it. So it doesn't ignore armor. It does if it's assumed (it becomes a incorporeal touch attack). Sweet. Although one question: Is a quiver of arrows (20) a piece of equipment or is it 20 individual pieces + a quiver? How about an Efficient quiver and its contents? In which case I need to invest in a returning throwing weapon... I could have sworn ectoplasm was considered a force effect, but that may have been a 3.0 thing. Unassumed equipment would not be able to penetrate it, but assumed gear would, and yes, you could CdG with an assumed weapon or incorporeal touch attack--except for this line: "The creature within the cocoon is visible only as a vague shape (substantial enough to interrupt line of sight) and cannot be directly harmed or interacted with unless the cocoon is destroyed." This suggests that the victim is in some kind of stasis while trapped, even if you have some way of physically bypassing the cocoon. Since the target is wrapped up like a mummy (not trapped in a larger space), there would be no miss chance in any event. LOS is definitely blocked, so you can't manifest powers on them (even burrowing ones). They're technically not in stasis. They can take purely mental actions and breath. And presumably effects already going, such as a poison would run their course. Given that the cocoon is an "object" with a defined hardness, and presumably a thickness no greater than 2.5' (and probably less than 1') I would think Burrow Power might work. Lastly, they can drown, so they obviously can be hurt via environmental effects. (And presumably gaseous poison since air can pass through the cocoon). Actually... Does this mean you could ectoplasmic cocoon yourself as a defensive measure, while manifesting offensive powers with Burrow power? Not so handy against warriors, but probably darn good against casters. Since presumably there's no restriction on damaging anyone outside of the cocoon. Assuming you had the approriate expanded knowledge Seer power. There's a section in the RotG about incorporeal creatures sharing space with corporeal ones. Note that every single piece of your equipment has to be assumed to be able to do this, though. Ok, thanks I'll take a look at it.
Khaim 05-25-07, 01:44 PM	your suggestion is completly unusable - who would decide which spells to "lose" despite not having actaully used them- spelsl arent chosen at random you know. I was talking about spell levels. You're currently restricted to (Tot. SL)/3 spell levels per fight, plus what you carry over from previous fights. All I'm proposing is to change it from (Total SL)/3 + (leftover SL) to (Total SL)/3 + (leftover SL)/3. That way, you would end up with no more than (Total SL)/2 in your last battle, plus maybe a few SL from rounding.
Khaim 05-25-07, 02:06 PM	Getting away from arguing about 1/3 and 3FC for a minute- the DMG lists potions of enlarge person as 250gp. It also claims that potions follow pricing guidelines exactly. Does that mean that a potion of enlarge person has CL 5? And if so, can I buy potions at a lower CL?
McJarvis 05-25-07, 02:09 PM	Getting away from arguing about 1/3 and 3FC for a minute- the DMG lists potions of enlarge person as 250gp. It also claims that potions follow pricing guidelines exactly. Does that mean that a potion of enlarge person has CL 5? And if so, can I buy potions at a lower CL? Only with credits, I believe. [Or gather information]
TelinArtho 05-25-07, 02:11 PM	Getting away from arguing about 1/3 and 3FC for a minute- the DMG lists potions of enlarge person as 250gp. It also claims that potions follow pricing guidelines exactly. Does that mean that a potion of enlarge person has CL 5? And if so, can I buy potions at a lower CL? Yes they are CL5. If you want to buy a lower level potion, unfortunately, you are forced to pay credits for it (a small amount though - I'd have to check exactly how many). EDIT: Wait - was this changed with the wands change? You may pay credits to get the right to buy Potions, Oils, or Tattoos that have a CL higher than your ECL. You may pay 1° per 2 CL the Potion/Oil/Tattoo is above your ECL (max 20). Normally, you may only buy Potions and Tattoos with a CL up to your ECL. Example: Oil of protection from energy [CL 20] Yes - it was apparently. Potions can be had at any CL up to your ECL without credits. You can also get potions not on the list as long as they are still valid potions (so no potions of Shield or Exp. Retreat since those are personal spells and not allowed in potion form).
McJarvis 05-25-07, 02:49 PM	Hey lookie! The search function is back! :D
Zevox 05-25-07, 03:00 PM	Hey lookie! The search function is back! :D We have a search function? Seriously, that things been down longer than I've been a member of these forums. Zevox
TelinArtho 05-25-07, 03:04 PM	Heh - I think they removed it something like 2 days after I became a member... good to see that they are working on it though.
MindWandererB 05-25-07, 03:05 PM	Hey lookie! The search function is back! :DFor some of us, yes. It's not up for everyone so that they can judge the load on the servers.Sweet. Although one question: Is a quiver of arrows (20) a piece of equipment or is it 20 individual pieces + a quiver? How about an Efficient quiver and its contents? In which case I need to invest in a returning throwing weapon...The way it's written, each object is seperate. If you have an assumed Efficient Quiver, an arrow you take out of it would instantly become material (and fall through your fingers, since you can't pick up new objects while Uncarnate). They're technically not in stasis. They can take purely mental actions and breath. And presumably effects already going, such as a poison would run their course. Given that the cocoon is an "object" with a defined hardness, and presumably a thickness no greater than 2.5' (and probably less than 1') I would think Burrow Power might work. Lastly, they can drown, so they obviously can be hurt via environmental effects. (And presumably gaseous poison since air can pass through the cocoon).The easy one: Burrow Power specifically doesn't work if you lack LOS, and Ectoplasmic Cocoon specifically blocks LOS. So unless you have x-ray vision, that's a no-go. As for the "stasis" thing: it's a RAW vs. RAI thing. They may have intended things that can penetrate the cocoon to be able to deal damage to the victim, but that's not what they said. They said that the victim cannot be directly harmed or interacted with in any way, period. I would be okay either way, but since the RAW makes them semi-invincible, it would require a court decision to change it.Actually... Does this mean you could ectoplasmic cocoon yourself as a defensive measure, while manifesting offensive powers with Burrow power? Not so handy against warriors, but probably darn good against casters. Since presumably there's no restriction on damaging anyone outside of the cocoon. Assuming you had the approriate expanded knowledge Seer power.It could be done. You'd need Clairvoyant Sense and Burrowing Power. Or you could use it almost like Sanctuary, giving yourself time to buff with powers (though not items or spells, except for a power stone in your hand). I think it would even work with Astral Construct, if you burrowed it.
Hirumajoe 05-25-07, 03:23 PM	First, thanks for the answers. So bows and arrows are out (unless you want to spend 160 gp per arrow to get +1 ghost touch arrows) and magic returning thrown weapons are in. Not as useful to be an Elf then. The easy one: Burrow Power specifically doesn't work if you lack LOS, and Ectoplasmic Cocoon specifically blocks LOS. So unless you have x-ray vision, that's a no-go. So I need to invest in a ring of X-ray vision then for power which require LOS. Expensive (25,000 gp) but not impossibly so for the higher ECLs (10 and up). However, you should be able to burrow a ray spell, such as Crystal Shard, since it doesn't require LOS. If a power requires line of sight (which includes most powers that affect a target or targets instead of an area), you cannot manifest it as a burrowing power unless you can somehow see the target, such as with clairvoyant sense. As for the "stasis" thing: it's a RAW vs. RAI thing. They may have intended things that can penetrate the cocoon to be able to deal damage to the victim, but that's not what they said. Actually, they do explicitly state in the power that the character might drown. A creature that is cocooned while aloft begins to fall immediately, and a creature that is cocooned while swimming or underwater may drown. Actually might be funny to get an astral construct to pick up a cocooned opponent and take them down under the water in the forest, acid in the sewer, or the lava in the temple... None of those are direct interactions with an opponent, they're all environmental.
Zevox 05-25-07, 03:27 PM	So bows and arrows are out (unless you want to spend 160 gp per arrow to get +1 ghost touch arrows) and magic returning thrown weapons are in. Even that option is out. Ghost Touch is not a valid enchantment on ranged weapons, so you couldn't get those arrows even if you wanted to. Zevox
McJarvis 05-25-07, 03:42 PM	We have a search function? Seriously, that things been down longer than I've been a member of these forums. Zevox Heh - I think they removed it something like 2 days after I became a member... good to see that they are working on it though. /me feels old :( I used that thing all the time back in my CharOp days...I think it went down about a year or two after I joined up on the forums.(and I was an active user from day 1 of joining WotC forums)
TelinArtho 05-25-07, 03:51 PM	Wow - I don't remember the last time I was online when a Wiz-O was visible... hello Mel.
Usurpator 05-25-07, 04:00 PM	Yes - it was apparently. Potions can be had at any CL up to your ECL without credits. You can also get potions not on the list as long as they are still valid potions (so no potions of Shield or Exp. Retreat since those are personal spells and not allowed in potion form). Awk, what? My characters need to do some potion shopping immediately. The stupid (from 3.0) CL5 reference and mandatory 250gp. often stopped me from buying such potions... gotta stock up!
TelinArtho 05-25-07, 04:15 PM	Hmm - when a non-outsider takes the half-celestial template (for example), would the change in type result in a change in weapon proficiencies. Lizardfolk (humanoid) - proficient with simple weapons Half-Celestial Lizardfolk (outsider) - proficient with simple and martial weapons?
McJarvis 05-25-07, 04:18 PM	Hmm - when a non-outsider takes the half-celestial template (for example), would the change in type result in a change in weapon proficiencies. Lizardfolk (humanoid) - proficient with simple weapons Half-Celestial Lizardfolk (outsider) - proficient with simple and martial weapons? This is my understanding of the rules.
Zevox 05-25-07, 04:31 PM	Hmm - when a non-outsider takes the half-celestial template (for example), would the change in type result in a change in weapon proficiencies. Lizardfolk (humanoid) - proficient with simple weapons Half-Celestial Lizardfolk (outsider) - proficient with simple and martial weapons? Yup. Same reasoning for why Planetouched here get automatic proficiencies with those weapons. Zevox
McJarvis 05-25-07, 04:33 PM	Yup. Same reasoning for why Planetouched here get automatic proficiencies with those weapons. Zevox not the same reasoning-> plane touched isn't a template.
Khaim 05-25-07, 04:54 PM	Here's a new character I'm working on. Can I get some feekback? Herev Gender and Race: Male Orc Size and Type: Medium Humanoid (Orc) Height and Weight: 6'2" 255 lbs Age: 18 years Alignment: LN ECL: Monk 3 Experience: 3200/6000 Outmanuever (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6466576#post6466576) (Defense) Balance +10, Climb +13, Jump +11, Swim +10 Time Between Fights: ? hrs Prebuffs/Ongoing Effects: xxxxx (time remaining), xxxxx (time remaining) Items Used: xxxxx, xxxxx Spells or Powerpoints Used: xxxxx x/day Abilities Used: xxxxx Free Activity: xxxxx Time Between Fights: ? hrs Prebuffs/Ongoing Effects: xxxxx (time remaining), xxxxx (time remaining) Items Used: xxxxx, xxxxx Spells or Powerpoints Used: xxxxx x/day Abilities Used: xxxxx Free Activity: xxxxx Time Between Fights: ? hrs Prebuffs/Ongoing Effects: xxxxx (time remaining), xxxxx (time remaining) Items Used: xxxxx, xxxxx Spells or Powerpoints Used: xxxxx x/day Abilities Used: xxxxx Free Activity: xxxxx Attributes STR 20 (+5) [10 pts] [16 Base, 4 Racial] DEX 14 (+2) [06 pts] [14 Base] CON 14 (+2) [06 pts] [14 Base] INT 12 (+1) [06 pts] [14 Base, -2 Racial] WIS 13 (+1) [08 pts] [15 Base, -2 Racial] CHA 06 (-2) [00 pts] [8 Base, -2 Racial] Miscellaneous Statistics Hit Points: 23 [3 HD] [8 (Monk 1) + (4.5 Monk x 2) (3 HD x 2 Con)] Armor Class (Normal): 13 [10 Base, 2 Dex, 1 Monk] Armor Class (Touch): 13 [10 Base, 2 Dex, 1 Monk] Armor Class (Flat-Footed): 11 [10 Base, 1 Monk] Initiative: +2 [2 Dex] Base Attack Bonus: +2 [2 Monk] Grapple: +11 [2 BAB, 5 Str, 4 Feat] Speed (Land): 50 ft [30 Base, 10 Enhancement, 10 Insight] Weight Carried: 15.3 lbs, light encumbrance [0-133 (Light), 134-266 (Medium), 267-400 (Heavy)] Saves Fortitude: +6 [2 Con, 3 Monk, 1 Resistance] Reflex: +6 [2 Dex, 3 Monk, 1 Resistance] Evasion Will: +5 [1 Wis, 3 Monk, 1 Resistance] +2 vs enchantments Melee Attacks Unarmed strike +7, 1d6+5, (20/x2), bludgeoning [5 Str, 2 BAB] Flurry of blows +5/+5, 1d6+5, (20/x2), bludgeoning [5 Str, 2 BAB, -2 Flurry] Ranged Attacks Shuriken +4, 1d2+5, (20/x2), Range 10 ft, piercing [2 Dex, 2 BAB] Flurry of Shuriken +2, 1d2+5, (20/x2), Range 10 ft, piercing [2 Dex, 2 BAB, -2 Flurry] Special Abilities Light SensitivityRacial (Dazzled in bright sunlight or Daylight spell) Flurry of BlowsMonk 1 (Gain an extra attack, -2 to all attacks) EvasionMonk 2 (Take no damage on successful reflex save) Feats Improved Unarmed StrikeMonk 1 Improved GrappleMonk 1 (+4 on grapple checks, does not provoke attacks of opportunity for initiating grapple) Deflect ArrowsMonk 2 (Once a round deflect one ranged weapon) Wild TalentLvl 1 (Become psionic, gain 2 pp) Speed of ThoughtLvl 3 (+10 ft insight bonus to speed when focused) Skills Total Skill Points: 30 [30 Monk] Languages: Common, Orc, Undercommon [2 Racial, 1 Int] Armor Check Penalty: -0 Balance: +10 [2 Dex, 6 Ranks (6 Monk), 2 Synergy (Tumble)] Climb: +13 [5 Str, 6 Ranks (6 Monk), 2 Circumstance] Hide: +2 [2 Dex, 0 Ranks] Jump: +11 [5 Str, 6 Ranks (6 Monk)] Knowledge (Arcana): +2 [1 Int, 1 Ranks (1 Monk)] Knowledge (Religion): +2 [1 Int, 1 Ranks (1 Monk)] Listen: +1 [1 Wis, 0 Ranks] Move Silently: +2 [2 Dex, 0 Ranks] Spot: +1 [1 Wis, 0 Ranks] Swim: +10 [5 Str, 5 Ranks (5 Monk)] Tumble: +9 [2 Dex, 5 Ranks, 2 Synergy (Jump)] Prefight Actions Gain psionic focus Equipment Worn and Carried Basic Outfit [0 lbs] [0 gp] Climber's Kit [5 lbs][80 gp] Cloak of Resistance +1 [1 lbs][1,000 gp] 50 Shuriken [0.1 lb each = 5 lbs] [0.2 gp each = 10 gp] Expendable Items 3 Potion of Enlarge Person [CL 2] [0.1 lb each = 0.3 lbs][100 gp each = 300 gp] 1 Tattoo of Vigor [ML 2] [0.0 lb each = 0 lbs][100 gp each = 100 gp] Max total (ECL2 x 50): 450 gp Equipment at Home Results (result) vs (Character Name (Player Name)) - [??? xp] [??? gp] Miscellaneous Information Starting: 3200 XP Earned: 0 XP Remaining: 3200 XP Starting: 3000 gp Earned: 0 gp Spent: ??? gp - Starting equipment: 1,490 gp Remaining: 1,510 gp (Misc. Item) ??? gp received [??? gp originally spent] (Misc. Item) ??? gp received [??? gp originally spent] (Misc. Item) ??? gp received [??? gp originally spent] (Qty) Arrows [0.05 gp each = ?? gp] (Qty) Bolts [0.1 gp each = ?? gp] (Qty) Bullets [0.01 gp each = ?? gp] (Qty) Dorje of (Name) [ML ?] [?? gp each = ?? gp] (Qty) Oil of (Name) [CL ?] [?? gp each = ?? gp] (Qty) Potion of (Name) [CL ?] [?? gp each = ?? gp] (Qty) Powerstone of (Name) [ML ?] [?? gp each = ?? gp] (Qty) Psicrown of (Name) [ML ?] [?? gp each = ?? gp] (Qty) Scroll of (Name) [CL ?] [?? gp each = ?? gp] (Qty) Staff of (Name) [CL ?] [?? gp each = ?? gp] (Qty) Tattoo of (Name) [ML ?] [?? gp each = ?? gp] (Qty) Wand of (Name) [CL ?] [?? gp each = ?? gp]
hogarth 05-25-07, 05:07 PM	Awk, what? My characters need to do some potion shopping immediately. The stupid (from 3.0) CL5 reference and mandatory 250gp. often stopped me from buying such potions... gotta stock up! Just think -- now anyone with an extra 1000 gp or so can buy an Oil of Animate Dead. Viola! Instant necromancer. :devil:
TelinArtho 05-25-07, 05:10 PM	First thing I notice is your AC is going to get you killed. While the deflect arrows will help prevent regular ranged attacks, someone could two-hand throw javelins at you without proficiency (-6/-10) and still have a decent chance of hitting you. The tattoo of Vigor at ML2 would cost 200gp (ML2 * 1 * 50gp *2 (personal range)), for a minor benefit. Replacing this with 3 potions of Mage Armor and a circumstantial potion of Prot. from Evil would go a long way. Also that low charisma will make you an easy target for Ego Whip - though I'm not sure the best way to prevent it other than taking out points in intelligence. Speedy - but very fragile - especially when grapple specialists are in trouble against opponents with allies in many cases.
Khaim 05-25-07, 05:44 PM	First thing I notice is your AC is going to get you killed. I actually considered moving points from Dex to something else, since my AC is so ridiculously low anyways. While the deflect arrows will help prevent regular ranged attacks, someone could two-hand throw javelins at you without proficiency (-6/-10) and still have a decent chance of hitting you. Yeah, if they're carrying javelins. I see your point though. The tattoo of Vigor at ML2 would cost 200gp (ML2 * 1 * 50gp *2 (personal range)), for a minor benefit. Replacing this with 3 potions of Mage Armor and a circumstantial potion of Prot. from Evil would go a long way. Is Evil the best alignment to choose? Also that low charisma will make you an easy target for Ego Whip - though I'm not sure the best way to prevent it other than taking out points in intelligence. But I need my skill points! Speedy - but very fragile - especially when grapple specialists are in trouble against opponents with allies in many cases. Fragile I don't exactly like, but I'm not sure there's a better way to build him. Monks are fragile anyways.
TelinArtho 05-25-07, 05:53 PM	@My questors and everyone involved: I just found out that I will be without internet access until Tuesday morning (darn internet company...). Luckily I was able to get my fights done and so far there's no complaints. As a result though - I have a feeling I will be a bit behind. This is doubly bad for TM - but I am sure that if he provides a bit of tactics, that I will be able to finish the encounter acceptably before the deadline. For Sjiggie and Sunwolf - we'll be a little behind, but I don't think it should be a big deal. See you guys soon.
Usurpator 05-25-07, 06:22 PM	Here's a new character I'm working on. Can I get some feekback? Seems a nice specialist build. As Telin said, your AC is your primary weakness at the moment. At least get a potion of mage armor. Light warhorses will eat you up while you are grappling their riders. I'll do a character comparison: Against Namara Your grapple is slightly better, but not enough to comfortable advantage. Both will expand/enlarge, Namara will use her glaive to try and get in the first blow, and against an enlarged AC of 11, she will be 80% succesfull, once that 3d6+8 is in, it's all over for Herev. Of course, if she brings her Light Warhorse, it's won't be even a close match without the Glaive. 80/20 odds to Namara. Against Solon Maybe one arrow would hit before you close enough to grapple, but you still have to weather either sleep or color spray, giving you 40% odds to be out of the fight instantly. That horse can be lethal. 60/40 odds to Herev. Against Borodin Once again, once you get into range, a grapple victory is assured. You'll have to weather a hold person (60% chance to do so), and one initial attack for 10 damage. If Borodin brings his horse, you're gone. 60/40 odds to Herev. I think you can count on winning between 33% and 50% of your fights based on your build alone (if no Light Warhorses are involved that is). What direction do you want to take him?
Zevox 05-25-07, 06:24 PM	not the same reasoning-> plane touched isn't a template. Last I checked, they both got their proficiencies from being Type: Outsider. Ergo, same reasoning. That the reason for their having the reason for their having those proficiencies differs is another matter entirely :) . Zevox
Khaim 05-25-07, 07:10 PM	Seems a nice specialist build. As Telin said, your AC is your primary weakness at the moment. At least get a potion of mage armor. Light warhorses will eat you up while you are grappling their riders. That's really more a problem of light warhorses in an ECL 3 league. Against Namara Your grapple is slightly better, but not enough to comfortable advantage. Both will expand/enlarge, Namara will use her glaive to try and get in the first blow, and against an enlarged AC of 11, she will be 80% succesfull, once that 3d6+8 is in, it's all over for Herev. Of course, if she brings her Light Warhorse, it's won't be even a close match without the Glaive. 80/20 odds to Namara. Actually, with a Tumble of +9 I have a 75% chance to ignore AoO. Also, my potion lasts 2 minutes; her power stone lasts two rounds. Against Solon Maybe one arrow would hit before you close enough to grapple, but you still have to weather either sleep or color spray, giving you 40% odds to be out of the fight instantly. That horse can be lethal. 60/40 odds to Herev. Sleep is a problem, although I have a decent save. Color spray not so much; by the time I'm within 15', I'm grappling. Against Borodin Once again, once you get into range, a grapple victory is assured. You'll have to weather a hold person (60% chance to do so), and one initial attack for 10 damage. If Borodin brings his horse, you're gone. 60/40 odds to Herev. I think you can count on winning between 33% and 50% of your fights based on your build alone (if no Light Warhorses are involved that is). What direction do you want to take him? I was going to go straight monk into Psionic Fist. Stick with grappling, get more strenght enhancers, and just beat stuff to death.
Usurpator 05-25-07, 08:04 PM	That's really more a problem of light warhorses in an ECL 3 league. Well, unless the rules are changed it will be a problem for your build. Actually, with a Tumble of +9 I have a 75% chance to ignore AoO. Also, my potion lasts 2 minutes; her power stone lasts two rounds. Wrong on both counts. First, I'm not talking about an AoO (just check out my tactics for Namara's last fight), the AoO is on top of that (didn't even count the +8 Tumble when calculating odds), and the powerstone lasts for 10 minutes since it's augmented. Sleep is a problem, although I have a decent save. Color spray not so much; by the time I'm within 15', I'm grappling. No you won't, you will be blinded and stunned. It is unfortunate that the link to the fight of Solon with Rebreg Eenos (a half-giant grappling specialist) doesn't work anymore, but you bet your ass I got plenty of tricks up my sleeve to make it happen. I'm not trying to start an argument with you here, I simply ried to give you pointers and predictions as you requested. You can disregard them, but then you will be easier defeated by my characters. I was going to go straight monk into Psionic Fist. Stick with grappling, get more strenght enhancers, and just beat stuff to death. I haven't seen Psionic Fists before, and I'm curious if they work well. Also, I didn't mention it before, but your specialization is probably the biggest *strategical* weakness of your build. Once you go above a certain grapple mod, you will beat all non-grapplers, easily, that extra +4 simply doesn't matter. But what does matter is that your opponents will see your strategy coming from a long distance away, and will prepare accordingly. Meanwhile your character will be unable to switch to a different tactic because of the extreme specialization. In my opinion being predictable can be a big disadvantage here in the CoCo.
Khaim 05-25-07, 10:09 PM	Also, I didn't mention it before, but your specialization is probably the biggest *strategical* weakness of your build. Once you go above a certain grapple mod, you will beat all non-grapplers, easily, that extra +4 simply doesn't matter. But what does matter is that your opponents will see your strategy coming from a long distance away, and will prepare accordingly. Meanwhile your character will be unable to switch to a different tactic because of the extreme specialization. In my opinion being predictable can be a big disadvantage here in the CoCo. I see your point. I still like the idea of grappling, just because once you grab someone, they don't have much chance of getting away. Any ideas on what other strategy could be worked in? Also, I'm mostly thinking of PsiFist just because I fall into it with Monk6 and some skill investments, not because I think it's a great class.
Zevox 05-25-07, 10:17 PM	Little note about grappling here: in the lower leagues, grappling in a potent strategy, but once you get up to ECL 7+, its all but useless against most foes. Druids, Clerics, and Psions (and Psychic Warriors who pick it up with Powerstones) get Freedom of Movement at that point, rendering them impossible to grapple, and most others who would be vulnerable to grappling will be able to outrun you unless you're riding a Pegasus. Plus wizards pick up Dimension Door, which lets them escape a grapple with ease, and can start catching you with Black Tentacles to beat you at your own game. If you want to play a grappler, plan to dump the strategy for something else at upper levels, and have it as a backup option rather than your primary tactic at that point. Zevox
McJarvis 05-25-07, 11:15 PM	Last I checked, they both got their proficiencies from being Type: Outsider. Ergo, same reasoning. That the reason for their having the reason for their having those proficiencies differs is another matter entirely :) . Zevox He was asking if the template added the qualities of the associated type-> thus it is a different question. [[Planetouched just *are* outsiders, he was asking if any given type that changed to outsider automatically assumed the outsider traits-> and thus implying that you would also *lose* the traits of the base creature]]
NiQil 05-26-07, 06:31 AM	So I have a question about monks and gauntlets. First, let me quote the FAQ: Can a monk treat an attack with a gauntlet as an unarmed strike? A monk could wear such an item and treat it as an unarmed strike (since the Player’s Handbook says that “a strike with a gauntlet is . . . considered an unarmed attack”), although the damage dealt by the gauntlet would always be considered lethal damage (as noted in the gauntlet entry) and the monk would suffer a nonproficiency penalty (since the gauntlet is a simple weapon). The monk could even use gauntlet attacks as part of a flurry of blows. So by this quote, we get that when a monk uses a gauntlet, he loses the ability to deal nonlethal damage at will, and he would suffer a nonproficiency penalty. But he is allowed to use the gauntlet as part of a FoB, and the gauntlet will still allow him to deal monk unarmed damage. So does this mean that a monk can wear gauntlets, deal his normal monk unarmed damage, and now has the ability to enchant the gauntlets as weapons? Maybe this has come up before, but I stumbled across this little gem and can't help but wonder if there is something I am missing, since I have not seen any other monk builder using this ruling to do this very thing.
Salrantol 05-26-07, 07:19 AM	Can animated dead wear armor? The skeleton and zombie entries don't say if armor proficiencies are retained, yet both show example creatures using shields without penalty (human warrior skeleton and bugbear zombie).
Usurpator 05-26-07, 07:55 AM	I see your point. I still like the idea of grappling, just because once you grab someone, they don't have much chance of getting away. Any ideas on what other strategy could be worked in? Also, I'm mostly thinking of PsiFist just because I fall into it with Monk6 and some skill investments, not because I think it's a great class. Herev has more going for him than just great grappling. He also has great speed and great strength. Great speed does not only enables you to close with the enemy fast, but also enables you to stay away or dictate range if you want to. Deflect arrows allows you to defeat some ranged attacks, so if you can find a way to deal decent damage at range, this will give you another option to choose. With your strength, meleeing is also an option. You just have to do something to shore up your AC. One of the options is using reach weapons, enlargement and tumbling together with your speed. Such a tactic could give you a lot of extra attacks, possible evening the odds against a melee specialist even with lowish AC. Also, reach weapons are great to suppress caster types that have freedom of movement or similar things available. Reach weapons are also a good combination with trip, and your high strength synergizes with this too. Look at your strengths, and find ways so synergize them. An example of a synergetic character is Tezca, he can snipe, do straight archery, melee or grapple, and all fairly well. Combine this with his good speed and some psionic powers, and I have lots of options available. Tezca won't beat a pure specialist at his own game, but because he can simply choose to play another game, he will get good odds against a variety of opponents.
TheMagister 05-26-07, 07:59 AM	So I have a question about monks and gauntlets. First, let me quote the FAQ: So by this quote, we get that when a monk uses a gauntlet, he loses the ability to deal nonlethal damage at will, and he would suffer a nonproficiency penalty. But he is allowed to use the gauntlet as part of a FoB, and the gauntlet will still allow him to deal monk unarmed damage. So does this mean that a monk can wear gauntlets, deal his normal monk unarmed damage, and now has the ability to enchant the gauntlets as weapons? Maybe this has come up before, but I stumbled across this little gem and can't help but wonder if there is something I am missing, since I have not seen any other monk builder using this ruling to do this very thing. How recent is this?!
NiQil 05-26-07, 08:06 AM	How recent is this?! I dunno....I was skimming the most recent FAQ and ran across it. But it wasn't in red like it was a recent addition, so I have no idea how long it has been there. But if I am reading it correctly, it will make unarmed strikers a whole lot more effective...
Sjiggie 05-26-07, 08:47 AM	I was going to go straight monk into Psionic Fist. Stick with grappling, get more strenght enhancers, and just beat stuff to death. You can take a 2 level dip into pyrokineticist for hand afire ability and fire lash. The hand afire ability will get you +2d6 fire damage on you unarmed strikes and the fire lash is treated as an whip so you can trip and disarm with it. Because Pyrokineticist requires you to have a chaotic alignement you can't advance as a monk but the psionic fist doesn't have a lawfull requirement and still advances some of your monk abilities as your unarmed strike damage speed and AC bonus. You will lose nothing from your alignement shift you just can't advance as a monk anymore. -Sjiggie
McJarvis 05-26-07, 08:58 AM	Can animated dead wear armor? The skeleton and zombie entries don't say if armor proficiencies are retained, yet both show example creatures using shields without penalty (human warrior skeleton and bugbear zombie). Skeletons/Zombies are prof with shields, but not armor(to my knowledge)
Hirumajoe 05-26-07, 09:13 AM	So I have a question about monks and gauntlets. First, let me quote the FAQ: You really need to quote that section and the question directly previous. They're actually contain contradictory statements. Can a monk wear a gauntlet and still use her flurry of blows? Does she gain any other special abilities of the gauntlets with her unarmed strikes? Technically, a gauntlet isn’t an unarmed strike (it has a separate line on Table 7–5: Weapons in the Player’s Handbook), and thus can’t be used as part of a flurry of blows. A monk could wear gauntlets and still use flurry of blows, she just couldn’t attack with the gauntlets as part of the flurry (she’d be using her feet, elbows, knees, and so forth instead). If that’s too much hairsplitting for you, treat a gauntlet attack as effectively identical to an unarmed strike, except that it always deals lethal damage (even when worn by a monk). Many magic items called gauntlets aren’t necessarily using the same terminology. Gauntlets of ogre power, for example, aren’t always metal gloves. It’s conceivable that a monk might be wearing magic gauntlets that grant a special benefit on her unarmed strikes without those gauntlets also serving as weapons in their own right. In this case, the monk is making unarmed strike attacks, not gauntlet attacks. Can a monk treat an attack with a gauntlet as an unarmed strike? A monk could wear such an item and treat it as an unarmed strike (since the Player’s Handbook says that “a strike with a gauntlet is . . . considered an unarmed attack”), although the damage dealt by the gauntlet would always be considered lethal damage (as noted in the gauntlet entry) and the monk would suffer a nonproficiency penalty (since the gauntlet is a simple weapon). The monk could even use gauntlet attacks as part of a flurry of blows. The first one seems to be saying, by the rules, you can't use a gauntlet in a flurry of blows. But it goes on to say, if thats to nitpicky for you, you could just let it work with it anyways. The second one is explicitly saying you do it. Evidence for and against. On the same page of the faq. Fairly explicitly stated. Shrug. Make of it what you will.
Usurpator 05-26-07, 09:17 AM	I dunno....I was skimming the most recent FAQ and ran across it. But it wasn't in red like it was a recent addition, so I have no idea how long it has been there. But if I am reading it correctly, it will make unarmed strikers a whole lot more effective... This problem stays with the unarmed strike != fists (unarmed strikes being unspecified is the basis of a whole lot of problems). The FAQ also contradicts itself. It says a Monk can treat it as an unarmed strike, yet suffers a non-proficiency penalty. Which weapon is he using then in the flurry of attacks? Either a gauntlet is an 'weapon enhancer' or a 'weapon' it can't be both. As far as I read it, a gauntlet is a weapon enhancer, and a spiked gauntlet a weapon.
TheMagister 05-26-07, 09:19 AM	The first one is the one that I was remembering.
templer10 05-26-07, 11:11 AM	if i want to do a miniquest for a handle animal ally (and yes i know it might get changed - i want to equipt before next arene fight so might as well...) do i just write it in the title for the week or something?
Zevox 05-26-07, 12:24 PM	Can animated dead wear armor? The skeleton and zombie entries don't say if armor proficiencies are retained, yet both show example creatures using shields without penalty (human warrior skeleton and bugbear zombie). All of the example skeletons with such equipment seem to not suffer from nonproficiency penalties, so presumably, proficiencies of the base creature are kept, since undead are normally only proficient with armor if specifically mentioned to be. Plus the Human Warrior skeleton is using a martial weapon without nonproficiency penalties, and undead are never inherently proficient with those. Zevox
McJarvis 05-26-07, 12:29 PM	All of the example skeletons with such equipment seem to not suffer from nonproficiency penalties, so presumably, proficiencies of the base creature are kept, since undead are normally only proficient with armor if specifically mentioned to be. Plus the Human Warrior skeleton is using a martial weapon without nonproficiency penalties, and undead are never inherently proficient with those. Zevox By definition, if they are wielding them in the MM they are proficient, so it would be weird if they had non-proficiency penalties.
Salrantol 05-26-07, 01:04 PM	Plus the Human Warrior skeleton is using a martial weapon without nonproficiency penalties, and undead are never inherently proficient with those.But skeletons are specifically stated to retain their weapon proficiencies, so that doesn't clarify much.
NiQil 05-26-07, 03:21 PM	You really need to quote that section and the question directly previous. They're actually contain contradictory statements. Can a monk wear a gauntlet and still use her flurry of blows? Does she gain any other special abilities of the gauntlets with her unarmed strikes? Technically, a gauntlet isn’t an unarmed strike (it has a separate line on Table 7–5: Weapons in the Player’s Handbook), and thus can’t be used as part of a flurry of blows. A monk could wear gauntlets and still use flurry of blows, she just couldn’t attack with the gauntlets as part of the flurry (she’d be using her feet, elbows, knees, and so forth instead). If that’s too much hairsplitting for you, treat a gauntlet attack as effectively identical to an unarmed strike, except that it always deals lethal damage (even when worn by a monk). Many magic items called gauntlets aren’t necessarily using the same terminology. Gauntlets of ogre power, for example, aren’t always metal gloves. It’s conceivable that a monk might be wearing magic gauntlets that grant a special benefit on her unarmed strikes without those gauntlets also serving as weapons in their own right. In this case, the monk is making unarmed strike attacks, not gauntlet attacks. Can a monk treat an attack with a gauntlet as an unarmed strike? A monk could wear such an item and treat it as an unarmed strike (since the Player’s Handbook says that “a strike with a gauntlet is . . . considered an unarmed attack”), although the damage dealt by the gauntlet would always be considered lethal damage (as noted in the gauntlet entry) and the monk would suffer a nonproficiency penalty (since the gauntlet is a simple weapon). The monk could even use gauntlet attacks as part of a flurry of blows. The first one seems to be saying, by the rules, you can't use a gauntlet in a flurry of blows. But it goes on to say, if thats to nitpicky for you, you could just let it work with it anyways. The second one is explicitly saying you do it. Evidence for and against. On the same page of the faq. Fairly explicitly stated. Shrug. Make of it what you will. Go look at the most recent FAQ. The first portion of your quote has been removed. Seems like someone thought it might be contradictory, in my opinion.
SauroGrenom 05-26-07, 04:01 PM	Can you apply the zombie or skeleton template to things that already have templates? For example, can you have a werewolf lord zombie?
Rauul 05-26-07, 04:18 PM	Can you apply the zombie or skeleton template to things that already have templates? For example, can you have a werewolf lord zombie? it would be a human Zombie.. Since when werewolves die they revert to thier human form.. Hps would be different.. wouldn't keep immunites and all that.. and no other forms... So why would you want to... Oh and if over 10 hd it can't be animated into a zombie
SauroGrenom 05-26-07, 04:43 PM	it would be a human Zombie.. Since when werewolves die they revert to thier human form.. Hps would be different.. wouldn't keep immunites and all that.. and no other forms... So why would you want to... Oh and if over 10 hd it can't be animated into a zombie I think you missed my point entirely. I don't really care if the werewolf lord can be a zombie. Over in the council, Telin suggested that we eliminate the ECL>CR+4 mechanic we use for deciding if a monster can be your ally. In place of that he was suggesting we extend the Minimal ECL Requirements list (now proposed for purchased and HA allies) so that it covers all possible allies. So I'm looking into how much work that would be. There are over 250 creatures in the SRD that can be zombies or skeletons. So that's somehting over 500 monsters to put on the list. Now if templates can be applied as well, that multiplies the number of possible creatures to put on the list. If we have to put every fiendish, celestial, half fiend, half celestial, half dragon version of every creature as a skeleton or zombie onto the list, it expands to over 3000 entries on the list. Then add in all the various lycanthrope versions, and it's an insane number of possible combinations. If templates are not allowed on zombies and skeletons... then I think I can maybe manage the 500 possible creatures. But if templates are allowed, it's way too much. So the basic question is this: Can you make zombies or skeletons with a template?
McJarvis 05-26-07, 04:45 PM	Can you make zombies or skeletons with a template? And Rauul's Answer was: It depends on the template in question. :-)
SauroGrenom 05-26-07, 04:49 PM	And Rauul's Answer was: It depends on the template in question. :-)Why would it? I understand that some templates would be largely pointless (since they have mostly spell like abilities or supernatural special qualities). That's beside the point. A were bear zombie would have 14hd, and be unable to change form. It would loose most of the benefits of being a lycanthrope... I get that, but I want to know is it possible to make a zombie of a were creature. I guess that the answer is yes. A half dragon ogre zombie is a viable creature. No?
Rauul 05-26-07, 04:50 PM	I think you missed my point entirely. I don't really care if the werewolf lord can be a zombie. Over in the council, Telin suggested that we eliminate the ECL>CR+4 mechanic we use for deciding if a monster can be your ally. In place of that he was suggesting we extend the Minimal ECL Requirements list (now proposed for purchased and HA allies) so that it covers all possible allies. So I'm looking into how much work that would be. There are over 250 creatures in the SRD that can be zombies or skeletons. So that's somehting over 500 monsters to put on the list. Now if templates can be applied as well, that multiplies the number of possible creatures to put on the list. If we have to put every fiendish, celestial, half fiend, half celestial, half dragon version of every creature as a skeleton or zombie onto the list, it expands to over 3000 entries on the list. Then add in all the various lycanthrope versions, and it's an insane number of possible combinations. If templates are not allowed on zombies and skeletons... then I think I can maybe manage the 500 possible creatures. But if templates are allowed, it's way too much. So the basic question is this: Can you make zombies or skeletons with a template? As a Player of ALOT Necromancers... i would have to say yes BUT once they are animated they loose the former template bonuses except for hps and ac bonuses, Basicly because they keep thier subrace (red dragon skeleton is still immune to fire) So yes you Should be able to.. (half dragon Mule Zombie would still be able to fly)
McJarvis 05-26-07, 04:59 PM	Why would it? I understand that some templates would be largely pointless (since they have mostly spell like abilities or supernatural special qualities). That's beside the point. Some examples off the top of my head: When a lycan dies it reverts to it's normal form(can't apply the zombie/skeli template to it) Ghosts don't have bones or physical bodies.
Rauul 05-26-07, 05:02 PM	Some examples off the top of my head: When a lycan dies it reverts to it's normal form(can't apply the zombie/skeli template to it) Ghosts don't have bones or physical bodies. true to both.. except you can reanimate the dead were creature.. to be a Human Zombie or Skeleton with the subclass of it's former self.. would have it's dr if it had it in human form ect..
Khaim 05-26-07, 06:40 PM	Question: Can Paladins (or Rangers) of 1st-3rd level cast scrolls from their spell lists? I know they can use wands, but it never says they can use scrolls. Obviously their caster level is 0 and they need to make a d20 roll against the scroll's CL, but for low level scrolls that's not hard. I looked in the FAQ but didn't find an answer. Anyone?
MindWandererB 05-26-07, 07:31 PM	Some answers: Templates on skeletons/undead: legal by RAW, illegal here. Otherwise, you create a half-gold dragon half-red dragon half-green dragon etc. human warrior skeleton with +80 Str and a CR of 1/2. Gauntlets on monks: Those have been there for a year or so now; glad they finally removed the older one. The way I've run it on my monks (Sunstroke and Besthirah), they can deal unarmed strike damage and flurry with a gauntlet, but it uses its own enhancement bonuses (so it doesn't benefit from Amulet of Mighty Fists). This is probably not the best way of doing it (since magic gauntlets are cheaper than the Amulet), but it's what I've envisioned. The recent tough-flurry ruling might make it even worse: flaming gauntlet touch flurry!
hogarth 05-26-07, 07:41 PM	Question: Can Paladins (or Rangers) of 1st-3rd level cast scrolls from their spell lists? I know they can use wands, but it never says they can use scrolls. Obviously their caster level is 0 and they need to make a d20 roll against the scroll's CL, but for low level scrolls that's not hard. I looked in the FAQ but didn't find an answer. Anyone? It's not that they have a caster level of 0 -- they don't even have a caster level, so they can't make caster level checks.
NiQil 05-26-07, 07:42 PM	Some answers: Templates on skeletons/undead: legal by RAW, illegal here. Otherwise, you create a half-gold dragon half-red dragon half-green dragon etc. human warrior skeleton with +80 Str and a CR of 1/2. Gauntlets on monks: Those have been there for a year or so now; glad they finally removed the older one. The way I've run it on my monks (Sunstroke and Besthirah), they can deal unarmed strike damage and flurry with a gauntlet, but it uses its own enhancement bonuses (so it doesn't benefit from Amulet of Mighty Fists). This is probably not the best way of doing it (since magic gauntlets are cheaper than the Amulet), but it's what I've envisioned. The recent tough-flurry ruling might make it even worse: flaming gauntlet touch flurry! There hasn't been a recent ruling, as TA has yet to voice a vote. We can either wait for him, or you would need to break the tie, as it is currently 2-2 from the rest of the Elders. And your thinking on the gauntlets is how I was viewing it as well....makes me feel better that I wasn't the only one. Time to go outfit my new monk with some gauntlets... However, this brings up another questions. In order for a monk to use FoB with his gauntleted unarmed strikes, does he need one, or a pair? Edit: I think maybe the ability description answers this, by stating that unarmed strikes and special monk weapons can be used interchangeably in a flurry as the monk desires. So a single gauntlet should suffice.
Khaim 05-26-07, 07:45 PM	It's not that they have a caster level of 0 -- they don't even have a caster level, so they can't make caster level checks. That sounds reasonable, but I couldn't exactly find it anywhere.
NiQil 05-26-07, 08:02 PM	And with the rash of monk discussions and recent creations, I felt inspired to create my own. Feedback welcome. Juggernaut
Rauul 05-26-07, 08:31 PM	Some answers: Templates on skeletons/undead: legal by RAW, illegal here. Otherwise, you create a half-gold dragon half-red dragon half-green dragon etc. human warrior skeleton with +80 Str and a CR of 1/2. Why is it Illegal here... even in the table top game you have to kill the creature first.. and even the creature you mentioned would have 1d12 hps (at level 1) and no con bonus as undead have no con... strong, unintelligent, and worthless as a goblin skeleton unless it can get close.. (what ECL 6 can't kill 6 hp undead without blinking an eye)
Zevox 05-26-07, 09:12 PM	Why is it Illegal here... Because you could stack on templates to any creature you want for free because Skeletons or Zombies base their CR solely on HD. For instant, that Human Warrior skeleton of MWB's may have 6 hp and be easy to take out, but suppose someone stacked all ten Half-Dragon templates on a Djinni Skeleton such as Ceilia has. Thats a 59 hp creature with Fly 60' (Perfect) and strength 98. Even just one Half-Dragon template on that skeleton would be a crazy extra edge, bumping his strength from 18 to 26 for no extra cost. Ergo, we make it illegal here to keep things sane. Zevox
Khaim 05-26-07, 09:31 PM	And with the rash of monk discussions and recent creations, I felt inspired to create my own. Feedback welcome. Juggernaut Math: HP 23, Grapple +10. Overall, nice skirmisher; you have good attacks and fairly good defense. Total lack of skills is kind of a bummer, but 6 Int will do that to you.
Sjiggie 05-26-07, 09:35 PM	And with the rash of monk discussions and recent creations, I felt inspired to create my own. Feedback welcome. Juggernaut Wait NiQil what spots my eye a character of you using expandables :eek: Okay bad joke but for some real comments if you're gonna use potions why not some of protection from Evil/good for those summons? I would also try to get that int some more up I don't like a negative mod on my int and you should list that you have the evasion ability with your saves now the pitlords have to look it up in the spoilerblocks and might get overlooked quickly. I would switch your level 15 and 18 feats why want a +4 on you confirmation role when you don't crit that often and later grab the ability to crit more often? -Sjiggie PS. I'm also working on a monk based character I will put it up here sometime soon
Vathelokai 05-26-07, 10:06 PM	And with the rash of monk discussions and recent creations, I felt inspired to create my own. Feedback welcome. Juggernaut I thought the gauntlets wouldn't work for flurry, but looking up the rules, your right about it. I'll have to look into that for mine (mmmmm... ghost touch gauntlets....). Otherwise, looks like a tough monk.
Yitzi 05-26-07, 10:15 PM	Because you could stack on templates to any creature you want for free because Skeletons or Zombies base their CR solely on HD. For instant, that Human Warrior skeleton of MWB's may have 6 hp and be easy to take out, but suppose someone stacked all ten Half-Dragon templates on a Djinni Skeleton such as Ceilia has. Thats a 59 hp creature with Fly 60' (Perfect) and strength 98. Even just one Half-Dragon template on that skeleton would be a crazy extra edge, bumping his strength from 18 to 26 for no extra cost. Ergo, we make it illegal here to keep things sane. Zevox Why not just rule that the CR additions from the other templates come after, not before, the CR adjustment from skeleton/zombie? So that Djinni skeleton with 10 half-dragon templates is CR 23 (3 from 7 HD skeleton+2 per half-dragon template). A rule prohibiting multiple variations of the same template (so max 1 half-dragon), or even a limit of 1 "half-something" template period would also help the problem.
Zevox 05-26-07, 10:19 PM	And with the rash of monk discussions and recent creations, I felt inspired to create my own. Feedback welcome. Juggernaut Your equipment section is missing the gauntlet your attack section includes. You've made some errors with the gauntlet though. Look at that FAQ entry again (important part bolded): A monk could wear such an item and treat it as an unarmed strike (since the Player’s Handbook says that “a strike with a gauntlet is . . . considered an unarmed attack”), although the damage dealt by the gauntlet would always be considered lethal damage (as noted in the gauntlet entry) and the monk would suffer a nonproficiency penalty (since the gauntlet is a simple weapon). The monk could even use gauntlet attacks as part of a flurry of blows. So, without a class that grants proficiency with the gauntlet or taking the proficiency feat yourself, you take -4 to all attacks with it, and by the same logic that imposes that issue on you you don't get your Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) feat to it (you'd need Weapon Focus (Gauntlet)). Edit: Missed the simple weapon proficiency feat (but Sjiggie is right, you need to specify that its for your Gauntlet - it only works for one weapon), but you'll still need to change the focus feat if you want it with the gauntlet. Zevox
Zevox 05-26-07, 10:21 PM	Why not just rule that the CR additions from the other templates come after, not before, the CR adjustment from skeleton/zombie? So that Djinni skeleton with 10 half-dragon templates is CR 23 (3 from 7 HD skeleton+2 per half-dragon template). A rule prohibiting multiple variations of the same template (so max 1 half-dragon), or even a limit of 1 "half-something" template period would also help the problem. Because we try to avoid house rules here whenever possible, basically. In this case, its easier to just disallow adding templates to creatures that get made into Skeletons or Zombies than it is to try and come up with house rules we all agree fixes the problem. Zevox
Sjiggie 05-26-07, 10:24 PM	So, without a class that grants proficiency with the gauntlet or taking the proficiency feat yourself, you take -4 to all attacks with it, and by the same logic that imposes that issue on you you don't get your Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) feat to it (you'd need Weapon Focus (Gauntlet)). Zevox I believe his simple weapon proficiency grants him the use of the gauntlet but he has to specify it in his feat section. You´re right on the Weapon Focus issue but he can use an unarmed strike and a gauntlet attack in one FoB but he needs to list both to hit bonusses and damage.
MindWandererB 05-26-07, 10:25 PM	For instant, that Human Warrior skeleton of MWB's may have 6 hp and be easy to take out....Ah, but how easily could you take out twelve of them? And with that Str, it only takes one....
Zevox 05-26-07, 10:30 PM	Ah, but how easily could you take out twelve of them? And with that Str, it only takes one.... Depends on who you are. A meleer is screwed six ways to Sunday unless he can fly and has a bow, and is in a map that lets him get away. An Archer should be fine if shes fast enough or can fly and is in an appropriate map. A caster or psion could just dump an area spell/power and watch the bones fry. Zevox
Salrantol 05-26-07, 10:42 PM	A meleer is screwed six ways to Sunday unless he can fly and has a bow, and is in a map that lets him get away. An Archer should be fine if shes fast enough or can fly and is in an appropriate map.Ah, but when the 10x half-dragon ogre mage skeletons start showing up, then where does your flight get you?
NiQil 05-26-07, 10:47 PM	Your equipment section is missing the gauntlet your attack section includes. You've made some errors with the gauntlet though. Look at that FAQ entry again (important part bolded): So, without a class that grants proficiency with the gauntlet or taking the proficiency feat yourself, you take -4 to all attacks with it, and by the same logic that imposes that issue on you you don't get your Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) feat to it (you'd need Weapon Focus (Gauntlet)). Edit: Missed the simple weapon proficiency feat (but Sjiggie is right, you need to specify that its for your Gauntlet - it only works for one weapon), but you'll still need to change the focus feat if you want it with the gauntlet. Zevox This is incorrect...I am focusing on the unarmed strike. The gauntlet is treated as an unarmed strike except it makes the damage lethal all the time. It is still the unarmed strike that is being adjusted. Hence the reason it can be used as a part of a flurry, per the FAQ. If it did not count as an unarmed strike, then it couldn't be used in a flurry. So the focus is correct. Also, if the unarmed strike wasn't correct, then the FAQ would not allow a gauntlet user to still deal normal unarmed damage. And you are both wrong about Simple Weapon Proficiency...it grants proficiency with all simple weapons: SIMPLE WEAPON PROFICIENCY [GENERAL] Benefit: You make attack rolls with simple weapons normally. Normal: When using a weapon with which you are not proficient, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls. Special: All characters except for druids, monks, and wizards are automatically proficient with all simple weapons. They need not select this feat.
Sjiggie 05-26-07, 10:51 PM	Hmm.. my bad I thought when you take a weapon proficiency feat you have to select a weapon but it is only true for the martial and exotic weapon proficiency feats.
NiQil 05-26-07, 10:52 PM	I'll look into the feat thing...those are mostly filler feats as I couldn't find anything else I wanted that wasn't really weak at that level. And the only reason this character has expendables is that it is more cost effective. Bracers of Armor +4 cost somewhere around 24,000. For 100 fights, using a potion of mage armor in each one, I can get the same +4 armor bonus in each fight for 5000 gp. Given that monks are already so equipment dependant, the difference in the cost there over the course of his career pays for his monk's belt and then some. Edit: Alright..fixed the math issues and the missing equipment line, and switched the feats around. Anyone/anything else?
Khaim 05-27-07, 12:41 AM	Bracers of Armor +4 are 16k, actually. But your point is still good. Honestly, the biggest strike against using potions all the time is the actions you have to take drinking them. Not much of a loss, though.
NiQil 05-27-07, 01:26 AM	Bracers of Armor +4 are 16k, actually. But your point is still good. Honestly, the biggest strike against using potions all the time is the actions you have to take drinking them. Not much of a loss, though. My thoughts exactly. Burning an opening round standard action that normally would just be used to most likely do nothing more than move to drink a potion instead is a small price to pay for the monetary savings.
templer10 05-27-07, 04:56 AM	question - if i have to run an animated object as a monster - is there any way to decide what kind of object is it? do i random roll or just decide? since there is a big diffrence between an animated rope and a steel table - know what i mean....
Sjiggie 05-27-07, 05:53 AM	I would say roll 1d5 for it´s ability like: 1: blind (ex) ability 2: constrict (ex) ability 3: improved speed +10 (ex) 4: improved speed +20 (ex) 5: improved speed +30 (ex) Seems the most fare to me
templer10 05-27-07, 06:33 AM	I would say roll 1d5 for it´s ability like: 1: blind (ex) ability 2: constrict (ex) ability 3: improved speed +10 (ex) 4: improved speed +20 (ex) 5: improved speed +30 (ex) Seems the most fare to me i thought something like that - and go but what material teh object is made from (and hardness) from the ability. on another note - if i want to do a miniquest - i just need to do "ready for miniquest" in the subject line of the char sheet?
Salrantol 05-27-07, 06:45 AM	on another note - if i want to do a miniquest - i just need to do "ready for miniquest" in the subject line of the char sheet?Or you can ask for a questlord for it so somebody has a little more time to prepare for it than just reading the pairings and seeing that they've got a miniquest to do. On a side note, if you're looking for a questlord to run an MQ, I'd be willing, just PM me with what you're trying to do and I'll see what I can whip up.
templer10 05-27-07, 06:49 AM	Or you can ask for a questlord for it so somebody has a little more time to prepare for it than just reading the pairings and seeing that they've got a miniquest to do. On a side note, if you're looking for a questlord to run an MQ, I'd be willing, just PM me with what you're trying to do and I'll see what I can whip up. a simple miniquest to aqquire a brown bear handle animal ally for elrick flamebrother (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11908436&postcount=1098) - ECL 7. if you were willing it would be cool.
Salrantol 05-27-07, 06:56 AM	Consider it done. Just add [QL Salrantol] or something like that to the title line so Pitlords knows to assign it to me.
templer10 05-27-07, 06:59 AM	Consider it done. Just add [QL Salrantol] or something like that to the title line so Pitlords knows to assign it to me. Done - thanks.
McJarvis 05-27-07, 08:50 AM	I'll look into the feat thing...those are mostly filler feats as I couldn't find anything else I wanted that wasn't really weak at that level. And the only reason this character has expendables is that it is more cost effective. Bracers of Armor +4 cost somewhere around 24,000. For 100 fights, using a potion of mage armor in each one, I can get the same +4 armor bonus in each fight for 5000 gp. Given that monks are already so equipment dependant, the difference in the cost there over the course of his career pays for his monk's belt and then some. Edit: Alright..fixed the math issues and the missing equipment line, and switched the feats around. Anyone/anything else? I'm somewhat surprised that this was your final reasoning for taking an expendable. This is the reason why expendables are so powerful in the first place-> You're almost guaranteed 1->2 rounds of buff time every fight. Then if you figure that you'll spend 10->15% of your earnings on them, that's like a custom item worth 10->15% of your gp at all levels that automatically levels up & gives you various spells/effects.[and a multitude too, if you are using 3->4 buffs a fight]
Khaim 05-27-07, 10:06 AM	I'm somewhat surprised that this was your final reasoning for taking an expendable. This is the reason why expendables are so powerful in the first place-> You're almost guaranteed 1->2 rounds of buff time every fight. Then if you figure that you'll spend 10->15% of your earnings on them, that's like a custom item worth 10->15% of your gp at all levels that automatically levels up & gives you various spells/effects.[and a multitude too, if you are using 3->4 buffs a fight] This was actually part of my halfway-thought-out strategy for the monk I posted earlier. He has the sort of insane speed to actually start the fight by round 2 or 3. Sadly the randomness of starting locations makes that somewhat problematic, which I didn't initially realize. Hey, here's an idea for a new skill package: something that tells you where your opponent starts and what their first few rounds of tactics are. Don't know what skills it would use, though.
Erithmu 05-27-07, 10:12 AM	This was actually part of my halfway-thought-out strategy for the monk I posted earlier. He has the sort of insane speed to actually start the fight by round 2 or 3. Sadly the randomness of starting locations makes that somewhat problematic, which I didn't initially realize. Hey, here's an idea for a new skill package: something that tells you where your opponent starts and what their first few rounds of tactics are. Don't know what skills it would use, though. There is something close ... look at the ambush package
MitzaVolchenko 05-27-07, 10:34 AM	Cupid-McJarvis-Human Bard ECL6 Tessero-TheMagister-Human Fighter/PsyWar/Warmind ECL6 Garret Jax-NiQil-Wood Elf Ranger ECL6 Valanthe-Sjiggie-Human Paladin/Wilder/Warmind? ECL5 Corrupter-Rauul-Human Necro ECL7 Valanthe is in week one to join warmind. We have a problem folks...Valanthe is LG...Corrupter is NE and towing undead. I am going to wait the two weeks to see what happens with Valanthe's quest. If he succeeds (he has Telin for QL) he is in. If not Sjiggie has the option of swapping characters. for an ECL 6 or 7. This should get interesting...not sure anyone in that group is going to have a fine appreciation for undead...do you have an alternate suggestion, Rauul?
TheMagister 05-27-07, 10:44 AM	"He's not undead! Uhm...He...ah...just doesn't eat much! Or bathe? Or...sleep?" ... "Aw Hells." {takes his undead and goes home}
Rauul 05-27-07, 12:34 PM	Cupid-McJarvis-Human Bard ECL6 Tessero-TheMagister-Human Fighter/PsyWar/Warmind ECL6 Garret Jax-NiQil-Wood Elf Ranger ECL6 Valanthe-Sjiggie-Human Paladin/Wilder/Warmind? ECL5 Corrupter-Rauul-Human Necro ECL7 Valanthe is in week one to join warmind. We have a problem folks...Valanthe is LG...Corrupter is NE and towing undead. I am going to wait the two weeks to see what happens with Valanthe's quest. If he succeeds (he has Telin for QL) he is in. If not Sjiggie has the option of swapping characters. for an ECL 6 or 7. This should get interesting...not sure anyone in that group is going to have a fine appreciation for undead...do you have an alternate suggestion, Rauul? Well it will be a hell of a roleplaying experiance with a lawful good Paladin and the undead using necro :D But if thats a problem with alignments i can pull corrupter (he is my only charater in that level class, closest i have is the Orc at ECL 5, could spend 5 credits and boost him to level 6 and have another tank... but he hates elfs..) or can just leave undead at home.. and wait for the paladin to bite it and animate him:devil: Corrupter is ok at leaving his undead at home since they are mule and 2 dogs.. As for the Alignment.. well Ne isn't CE.. and might be fun to roleplay :D
MitzaVolchenko 05-27-07, 12:40 PM	Well it will be a hell of a roleplaying experiance with a lawful good Paladin and the undead using necro :D But if thats a problem with alignments i can pull corrupter (he is my only charater in that level class, closest i have is the Orc at ECL 5, could spend 5 credits and boost him to level 6 and have another tank... but he hates elfs..) or can just leave undead at home.. and wait for the paladin to bite it and animate him:devil: Corrupter is ok at leaving his undead at home since they are mule and 2 dogs.. As for the Alignment.. well Ne isn't CE.. and might be fun to roleplay :D I would rather have the orc that hates elves get a gowth experience...and ECL5-6 is fine.
Rauul 05-27-07, 01:05 PM	I would rather have the orc that hates elves get a gowth experience...and ECL5-6 is fine. if ecl 5 is ok then sign up Graashnak and i will set Corrupter for miniquest to join EHTC this week
NiQil 05-27-07, 03:18 PM	if ecl 5 is ok then sign up Graashnak and i will set Corrupter for miniquest to join EHTC this week Gee....should I change my favored enemy to orc while I still can? :P
NiQil 05-27-07, 04:20 PM	Cupid-McJarvis-Human Bard ECL6 Tessero-TheMagister-Human Fighter/PsyWar/Warmind ECL6 Garret Jax-NiQil-Wood Elf Ranger ECL6 Valanthe-Sjiggie-Human Paladin/Wilder/Warmind? ECL5 Corrupter-Rauul-Human Necro ECL7 Valanthe is in week one to join warmind. We have a problem folks...Valanthe is LG...Corrupter is NE and towing undead. I am going to wait the two weeks to see what happens with Valanthe's quest. If he succeeds (he has Telin for QL) he is in. If not Sjiggie has the option of swapping characters. for an ECL 6 or 7. This should get interesting...not sure anyone in that group is going to have a fine appreciation for undead...do you have an alternate suggestion, Rauul? Alright...so I am looking over the proposed characters for this campaign....we are either going to have a lot of fun or get really trounced. With the swap out of the necro for the orc, we have 4 out of 5 PC's that can use healing wands (with Tessero being the only one that can't). So though we have no primary healer, we should be good there if everyone is careful. For arcane blasting power, we have....the bard. If we have a melee-oriented campaign, we are all set...we have 3 tanks, an archer (bard), and a 'tweener (ranger). For traps, we have....well we have 3 tanks. For locks, we have....well we have 3 tanks. So as long as it is a melee campaign, this should be a blast....but it could also be hilariously short if we come up against something outside of that LOL
TheMagister 05-27-07, 05:26 PM	So before we leave, everyone buys a scroll of knock and gives it to Cupid! As for traps: as long as they don't insta-kill us, we can just heal up with all those cure wands. ;)
NiQil 05-27-07, 05:30 PM	So before we leave, everyone buys a scroll of knock and gives it to Cupid! As for traps: as long as they don't insta-kill us, we can just heal up with all those cure wands. ;) Scrolls of knock? How about you let me try my key first? (points to adamantine two-bladed sword). And yea....at least we know what a bunch of our drops will be...healing wands LOL
templer10 05-27-07, 05:30 PM	As for traps: as long as they don't insta-kill us, we can just heal up with all those cure wands. ;) well - at least now we know what to write on your graves.....:D
Khaim 05-27-07, 05:37 PM	Yes, I'm bored and sketching up characters. This one's a skirmisher with +24 Hide. ECL ?: Ready for (Month) (Day) [Fight (?)] - (Free Activity) Psyker Elfbane Gender and Race: Male Goblin Size and Type: Small Humanoid (Goblinoid) Height and Weight: 3'5", 39 lbs Age: 19 years Alignment: NE ECL: Ranger 2 / Psychic Warrior 1 Experience: 3200/6000 Attributes STR 10 (+0) [4 pts] [12 Base, -2 Racial] DEX 18 (+4) [10 pts] [16 Base, 2 Racial] CON 16 (+3) [10 pts] [16 Base] INT 14 (+2) [6 pts] [14 Base] WIS 14 (+2) [6 pts] [14 Base] CHA 6 (-2) [0 pts] [8 Base, -2 Racial] Miscellaneous Statistics Hit Points: 26 [3 HD] [8 (Ranger) + (4.5 Ranger x 1) + (4.5 Psychic Warrior x 1) + (3 HD x 3 Con)] Armor Class (Normal): 19 [10 Base, 4 Dex, 4 Armor, 1 Size] Armor Class (Touch): 15 [10 Base, 4 Dex, 1 Size] Armor Class (Flat-Footed): 15 [10 Base, 5 Armor, 1 Size] (Conditional Modifier) Initiative: +4 [4 Dex] Base Attack Bonus: +2 [2 (Ranger), 0 (Psychic Warrior)] Grapple: -2 [2 BAB, 0 Str, -4 Size] Speed (Land): 30 ft [30 Base] Weight Carried: ??.?? lbs, light encumbrance [0-33 (Light), 34-66 (Medium), 67-100 (Heavy)] Saves Fortitude: +8 [3 Con, 3 (Ranger), 2 (Psychic Warrior)] Reflex: +7 [4 Dex, 3 (Ranger), 0 (Psychic Warrior)] Will: +2 [2 Wis, 0 (Ranger), 0 (Psychic Warrior)] Melee Attacks Greatsword +3, 1d10, (19-20/x2), slashing [0 Str, 2 BAB, 1 Size] +2 damage vs Elves Ranged Attacks Masterwork Composite Longbow +8, 1d6, (20/x3), Range 110 ft, piercing [4 Dex, 2 BAB, 1 Size, 1 Enhancement, 1 Feat] Rapid Shot +6/+6, 1d6, (20/x3), Range 110 ft, piercing [4 Dex, 2 BAB, 1 Size, 1 Enhancement, 1 Feat, -2 Rapid Shot] +1 to hit/+1 damage within 30 ft, +2 damage vs Elves, +2d6 damage with Psionic Shot Special Attacks & Abilities Favored Enemy: Elves Psionic Shot Powers Readied Level 1 [DC 13] Offensive Precognition Power Points Available Per Fight: 1 [1 Total Power Points / 3, rounded up] Total Power Points: 1 [0 Psychic Warrior, (2 Wis x 1) / 2] Manifester Level: 1 Feats Weapon Focus (longbow)Lvl 1 Point Blank ShotLvl 3 TrackRanger 1 Rapid ShotRanger 2 Psionic ShotPsyWar 1 Skills Total Skill Points: 44 [40 Ranger, 4 PsyWar] Languages: Common, Goblin, Draconic, Elven [2 Racial, 2 Int] Armor Check Penalty: -0 [0 Armor] Autohypnosis: +5 [2 Wis, 1 Ranks (1 PsyWar), 2 Synergy (Concentration), etc] Concentration: +9 [3 Con, 6 Ranks (5 Ranger, 1 PsyWar)] Craft (sculpture): +9 [2 Int, 5 Ranks (5 Ranger), 2 Circumstance] Hide: +14 [4 Dex, 6 Ranks (6 Ranger), 4 Size] Knowledge (Dungeoneering): +6 [2 Int, 4 Ranks (4 Ranger)] Knowledge (Nature): +3 [2 Int, 1 Ranks (1 Ranger)] Knowledge (Psionics): +3 [2 Int, 1 Ranks (1 PsyWar)] Listen: +8 [2 Wis, 6 Ranks (6 Ranger)] Move Silently: +13 [4 Dex, 5 Ranks (5 Ranger), 4 Racial] Psicraft: +3 [2 Int, 1 Ranks (1 PsyWar)] Ride: +10 [4 Dex, 2 Ranks (2 Ranger), 4 Racial] Spot: +8 [2 Wis, 6 Ranks (6 Ranger)] Conditional Modifiers +2 Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival vs Elves Prefight Actions Gain psionic focus Equipment Worn and Carried Basic Outfit [0 lbs] [0 gp] Greatsword [4 lbs][50 gp] Masterwork Composite Longbow [1.5 lbs][400 gp] Mithral Chain Shirt [5 lbs][1,100 gp] 100 Arrows [0.075 lb each = 7.5 lbs] [0.05 gp each = 5 gp] 1 Dorje of Chameleon [ML ?] [0.25 lb each = .25 lbs][750 gp each = 750 gp] (Qty) Wand of (Name) [CL ?] [0.1 lb each = ?? lbs][?? gp each = ?? gp] Expendable Items (Qty) Oil of (Name) [CL ?] [0.1 lb each = ?? lbs][?? gp each = ?? gp] (Qty) Potion of (Name) [CL ?] [0.1 lb each = ?? lbs][?? gp each = ?? gp] (Qty) Powerstone of (Name) [ML ?] [0.0 lb each = 0 lbs][?? gp each = ?? gp] (Qty) Scroll of (Name) [CL ?] [0.0 lb each = 0 lbs][?? gp each = ?? gp] (Qty) Tattoo of (Name) [ML ?] [0.0 lb each = 0 lbs][?? gp each = ?? gp] Max total (ECL2 x 50): 450 gp Equipment at Home (Misc. Item) [?? lbs][?? gp] (Misc. Item) [?? lbs][?? gp] Results Starting: 3200 XP Earned: ??? XP Spent: ??? XP Remaining: ??? XP Starting: 3000 gp Earned: ??? gp Spent: ??? gp Remaining: ??? gp (Misc. Item) ??? gp received [??? gp originally spent] (Misc. Item) ??? gp received [??? gp originally spent] (Misc. Item) ??? gp received [??? gp originally spent] (Qty) Arrows [0.05 gp each = ?? gp] (Qty) Bolts [0.1 gp each = ?? gp] (Qty) Bullets [0.01 gp each = ?? gp] (Qty) Dorje of (Name) [ML ?] [?? gp each = ?? gp] (Qty) Oil of (Name) [CL ?] [?? gp each = ?? gp] (Qty) Potion of (Name) [CL ?] [?? gp each = ?? gp] (Qty) Powerstone of (Name) [ML ?] [?? gp each = ?? gp] (Qty) Psicrown of (Name) [ML ?] [?? gp each = ?? gp] (Qty) Scroll of (Name) [CL ?] [?? gp each = ?? gp] (Qty) Staff of (Name) [CL ?] [?? gp each = ?? gp] (Qty) Tattoo of (Name) [ML ?] [?? gp each = ?? gp] (Qty) Wand of (Name) [CL ?] [?? gp each = ?? gp] Time Between Fights: ? hrs Prebuffs/Ongoing Effects: xxxxx (time remaining), xxxxx (time remaining) Items Used: xxxxx, xxxxx Spells or Powerpoints Used: xxxxx x/day Abilities Used: xxxxx Free Activity: xxxxx Time Between Fights: ? hrs Prebuffs/Ongoing Effects: xxxxx (time remaining), xxxxx (time remaining) Items Used: xxxxx, xxxxx Spells or Powerpoints Used: xxxxx x/day Abilities Used: xxxxx Free Activity: xxxxx Time Between Fights: ? hrs Prebuffs/Ongoing Effects: xxxxx (time remaining), xxxxx (time remaining) Items Used: xxxxx, xxxxx Spells or Powerpoints Used: xxxxx x/day Abilities Used: xxxxx Free Activity: xxxxx Optional Information xxxxx xxxxx
TheMagister 05-27-07, 05:38 PM	Scrolls of knock? How about you let me try my key first? (points to adamantine two-bladed sword). And yea....at least we know what a bunch of our drops will be...healing wands LOL HA! One of my very favorite characters was Gruk Pureheart, a half-orc Diablo paladin (there was a supplement book -- it's a neat class. Over powered as hell, though; he fit right in with the group we ran him in). I ran him for years off and on, and he finally got up to something like level 14 or 16, I forget which. Anyway, the DM put us up against something that wielded a Maul of the Titans, thinking it was too big for any of us to want to use (-2 to hit and all). He didn't read the updated text, and when I showed it to him he just fetched a sigh. Gruk was the iconic greatsword-wielding paladin, with a little lance thrown in. That mallet was his "key", and was always referred to as such. Wielding it while enlarged was one of my favorite things. Man, you can MAKE doors with that puppy when you're enlarged. (2d8+3 + str + power attack)*3 makes for doors in a hurry, hardness or no hardness. We got caught in one of those "crushing wall" traps, and Gruk beat our way out of it before it could close. It was just priceless. :)
Malither76 05-27-07, 06:29 PM	Quick question for you guys, Before the 3FC I know it was popular for awhile to prebuff desolving weapon, my question is now if you prebuff it, I will use my Psywarrior as the example as that is who this regards to anyways. Does the PP's used to prebuff it count toward your first fight? Say Gareth has 15pp usable per fight, and he uses 9pp to prebuff and augment disolving weapon, does he now have 6pps remaining for the fight? or could the prebuff been done the day before, I think the old ruling was you could prebuff but still only under the 1/3 rule for prebuff. Hope this isn't too confusing. thanks
templer10 05-27-07, 06:33 PM	Quick question for you guys, Before the 3FC I know it was popular for awhile to prebuff desolving weapon, my question is now if you prebuff it, I will use my Psywarrior as the example as that is who this regards to anyways. Does the PP's used to prebuff it count toward your first fight? Say Gareth has 15pp usable per fight, and he uses 9pp to prebuff and augment disolving weapon, does he now have 6pps remaining for the fight? or could the prebuff been done the day before, I think the old ruling was you could prebuff but still only under the 1/3 rule for prebuff. Hope this isn't too confusing. thanks yes - all prebuffs count towards your next fight in the 3fc so if you did it prior to first fight it count towards that fight. on the other hand - since dissolving weapon dont run out of duration there isnt any actualy any penalty to doing that.
Khaim 05-27-07, 06:37 PM	Quick question for you guys, Before the 3FC I know it was popular for awhile to prebuff desolving weapon, my question is now if you prebuff it, I will use my Psywarrior as the example as that is who this regards to anyways. Does the PP's used to prebuff it count toward your first fight? Say Gareth has 15pp usable per fight, and he uses 9pp to prebuff and augment disolving weapon, does he now have 6pps remaining for the fight? or could the prebuff been done the day before, I think the old ruling was you could prebuff but still only under the 1/3 rule for prebuff. Hope this isn't too confusing. thanks Technically I don't see why you can't prebuff with Dissolving Weapon. I would say it still falls under the 1/3 rule, but I'm not an elder so what I say doesn't matter.
Malither76 05-27-07, 06:37 PM	if you pay the 10 credits to use a variant, does it apply to one of your character's or once you buy it you can use it with multiple characters?
MindWandererB 05-27-07, 06:54 PM	if you pay the 10 credits to use a variant, does it apply to one of your character's or once you buy it you can use it with multiple characters? One character only.
templer10 05-27-07, 08:28 PM	can a druid who has a casting ability in another class can share spells/powers casted as the other class with his animal companion? (i think i remmber reading the answer is yes somewhere but i want to make sure).
Zevox 05-27-07, 08:50 PM	Quick question for you guys, Before the 3FC I know it was popular for awhile to prebuff desolving weapon, my question is now if you prebuff it, I will use my Psywarrior as the example as that is who this regards to anyways. Does the PP's used to prebuff it count toward your first fight? Say Gareth has 15pp usable per fight, and he uses 9pp to prebuff and augment disolving weapon, does he now have 6pps remaining for the fight? or could the prebuff been done the day before, I think the old ruling was you could prebuff but still only under the 1/3 rule for prebuff. Hope this isn't too confusing. thanks They will count out of your pp for your next fight, yes (so in your example, you have 6 left for that fight). You cannot prebuff it the day before, no - that would be too abuseable, since you'd have any caster/manifester prebuffing every spell/power they have that could conceivably last more than a day for free. Zevox
Guildmaster (TAO) 05-27-07, 08:56 PM	@Zevox: Sent Guildlords a number of PMs. Things should be up to date now.
Yitzi 05-27-07, 08:59 PM	can a druid who has a casting ability in another class can share spells/powers casted as the other class with his animal companion? (i think i remmber reading the answer is yes somewhere but i want to make sure). Spell-like abilities are specifically excluded. If it meant only spells from the druid class, it would not need to exclude spell-like abilities, as the druid class does not provide any spell-like abilities.
Rauul 05-27-07, 09:23 PM	Gee....should I change my favored enemy to orc while I still can? :P well you can and that would be funny :) 2 in the party starting out hating each other being forced to work together... See if either of us heal the other :devil: But yea With corrupter out of the mix we lost Blasting power and a cleric Cohort.. To bad Shadow couldn't go.. 2 bards and 1-2 levels of Rouge would be nice.. except for the whole alignment thing with a problem again..
templer10 05-27-07, 09:30 PM	Spell-like abilities are specifically excluded. If it meant only spells from the druid class, it would not need to exclude spell-like abilities, as the druid class does not provide any spell-like abilities. i actually working on a bard using the option to trade in bard songs for animal companion and adding a level in either cleric, or a manifesting class - iam trying to figure out where to take the energy ressistence possibilities. easyest is to go psion/wilder But the divine bard option + level of magic domain cleric gets rid of my MAD and give me essentially acsees to every low level spell buff - but the cost in credits is rather large. (planning at level 5 to have invisible Flying true strike charge of death with the dire bat invisible 2)
NiQil 05-27-07, 09:42 PM	well you can and that would be funny :) 2 in the party starting out hating each other being forced to work together... See if either of us heal the other :devil: But yea With corrupter out of the mix we lost Blasting power and a cleric Cohort.. To bad Shadow couldn't go.. 2 bards and 1-2 levels of Rouge would be nice.. except for the whole alignment thing with a problem again.. I think I might actually do that...just to give us a nice byplay to fall back on...will make for interesting roleplaying LOL I am just curious as to what kind of campaign Mitza has put together with this group makeup...if we can't beat it with a stick, we might be in trouble LOL.
Sjiggie 05-28-07, 07:12 AM	Valanthe is in week one to join warmind. We have a problem folks...Valanthe is LG...Corrupter is NE and towing undead. I am going to wait the two weeks to see what happens with Valanthe's quest. If he succeeds (he has Telin for QL) he is in. If not Sjiggie has the option of swapping characters. for an ECL 6 or 7. Now I'm so hoping to succeed on that quest *Crosses Fingers*
Khaim 05-28-07, 08:42 AM	UserNamer: You can't be both a human and an elf. Pick one.
Salrantol 05-28-07, 08:59 AM	UserNamer: You can't be both a human and an elf. Pick one.Drat. And here I thought he was revealing a heretofore unknown gestalt races rule.... My hopes are dashed.
Khaim 05-28-07, 09:01 AM	Drat. And here I thought he was revealing a heretofore unknown gestalt races rule.... My hopes are dashed. Well, you could always be a half-elf. Wait, no, that's terrible.
Salrantol 05-28-07, 09:08 AM	So we're not playing Munchkin, where being a half-breed gives you all the advantages of both races?
Khaim 05-28-07, 10:45 AM	So we're not playing Munchkin, where being a half-breed gives you all the advantages of both races? No, we're playing D&D, where a half-breed gives you a quarter of the advantages of each race.
waywreth 05-28-07, 10:47 AM	No, we're playing D&D, where a half-breed gives you a quarter of the advantages of each race. Now that's comedy (and sadly quite true). I remember the days of 2nd edition, when the half elf was the best race!
MitzaVolchenko 05-28-07, 11:53 AM	Now I'm so hoping to succeed on that quest *Crosses Fingers* You are in either way. I am setting the EL of the campaign at 6. I can take ECL 5 or 6. Rauul is bringing the elf hating orc instead of the just under ECL8 necro.
Abyssal Stalker 05-28-07, 01:16 PM	Hi there, Drac!
Khaim 05-28-07, 01:17 PM	Hi there, Drac! Hey Drac! Who's he again?
Sjiggie 05-28-07, 01:18 PM	@ Mitza Good to know but I want to qualify for warmind before we start the campaign. In the case I fail the quest is their a way to get the reuirement into the campaign?
Dracazar 05-28-07, 01:25 PM	Hi mates! Oh my god, how long I'm absent here! I'm very happy that you still use items from my magic laboratory! Even the FotW header looks like my template! I hope to have some time in next future to come back. For now I did some changes to the mapper as asked by the MindWandererB. Oh, congratulations to the new Game Master! And thanks to the old one for his efforts. Good game, friends.
NiQil 05-28-07, 01:26 PM	Drac<---the guy who created our spiffy mapper and roller....been absent for quite some time 'round these parts. But he's over there in the back row at the moment. Edit: Ninja'd by the man, the myth, the legend himself.
Zevox 05-28-07, 02:22 PM	Heya Dracazar! Good to see you! :D Hey, cool, looks like you got a special title for all your hard work now. Too bad it sounds like you don't have time to come back - 'tis always nice to see old timers returning around here. And yeah, I don't know what we'd do without your mapper there. Makes pitlording so much easier. And of course the roller is much easier to use than the others around, so that still sees use by almost everyone, from Pitlords on down. Hope to see around again sometime. Zevox
MitzaVolchenko 05-28-07, 02:55 PM	Hi mates! Oh my god, how long I'm absent here! I'm very happy that you still use items from my magic laboratory! Even the FotW header looks like my template! I hope to have some time in next future to come back. For now I did some changes to the mapper as asked by the MindWandererB. Oh, congratulations to the new Game Master! And thanks to the old one for his efforts. Good game, friends. *pounces Drac playfully* We miss ya darlin'! Don't be a complete stranger :)
Rauul 05-28-07, 04:25 PM	You are in either way. I am setting the EL of the campaign at 6. I can take ECL 5 or 6. Rauul is bringing the elf hating orc instead of the just under ECL8 necro. And Niqil is bringing the Orc hating Elf.. this is gonna be fun :)
NiQil 05-28-07, 04:36 PM	And Niqil is bringing the Orc hating Elf.. this is gonna be fun :) Well I decided to not totally murder you buy making orcs one of his favored enemies...but let's just say I'll leave the door open should things go sour, since I will have another one coming up at 10th LOL
Rauul 05-28-07, 04:55 PM	Well I decided to not totally murder you buy making orcs one of his favored enemies...but let's just say I'll leave the door open should things go sour, since I will have another one coming up at 10th LOL Now what fun is that... just cause i hate Elfs don't mean i won't Work with them.. Just means he won't go out of his way to AID an Elf.. next level gets worse thou.. with first level of Slayer on top of Ranger... besides your Elf is a Ranger... means I have to work with you as a Brother of Sorts... Don't mean i have to LIKE it.. LOL.. And Graak is only 1/2 orc and half human (more orc than human) Just don't get upset with his necklace of Ears... they just pointy ears
Rauul 05-28-07, 04:56 PM	Hi mates! Oh my god, how long I'm absent here! I'm very happy that you still use items from my magic laboratory! Even the FotW header looks like my template! I hope to have some time in next future to come back. For now I did some changes to the mapper as asked by the MindWandererB. Oh, congratulations to the new Game Master! And thanks to the old one for his efforts. Good game, friends. Don't know you.. but all i got to say is that i LOVE your mapper and dice roller.. So keep up the good work and hope to see you In action :)
Yitzi 05-28-07, 05:23 PM	but all i got to say is that i LOVE your mapper and dice roller So do we all.
Vathelokai 05-28-07, 05:41 PM	Now what fun is that... just cause i hate Elfs don't mean i won't Work with them.. Just means he won't go out of his way to AID an Elf.. next level gets worse thou.. with first level of Slayer on top of Ranger... besides your Elf is a Ranger... means I have to work with you as a Brother of Sorts... Don't mean i have to LIKE it.. LOL.. And Graak is only 1/2 orc and half human (more orc than human) Just don't get upset with his necklace of Ears... they just pointy ears Hey; how better to learn how to hunt elves than to live with one for a while... :D
Yitzi 05-28-07, 05:53 PM	Question: You must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed. A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity. At 2nd level, a barbarian retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized Does uncanny dodge allow someone to use deflect arrows even if they haen't moved yet (technically "flatfooted")? What if the attacker is hidden or invisible (or he's blinded, or...etc.)?
Khaim 05-28-07, 05:56 PM	Does uncanny dodge allow someone to use deflect arrows even if they haen't moved yet (technically "flatfooted")? What if the attacker is hidden or invisible (or he's blinded, or...etc.)? I think no in both cases. Uncanny dodge lets you keep your Dex to AC in certain specific situations, but you're still flat-footed/unaware, and thus can't deflect an attack.
Usurpator 05-28-07, 05:58 PM	Question: Does uncanny dodge allow someone to use deflect arrows even if they haen't moved yet (technically "flatfooted")? What if the attacker is hidden or invisible (or he's blinded, or...etc.)? Technically, the Barbarian is still flat-footed (even though he retains his Dex bonus) so he can't dodge arrows. In the case of Blindness he isn't aware of the attack, so no deflection there too.
templer10 05-29-07, 04:23 PM	here's my next "creation" Lady liara (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12539654&postcount=1137)- my first try on a mounted guy(girl) - comments critiques welcome. p.s. - if a mount has horseshoes of the zephyr he can charge anywhere right? (assuming distance for it is there).
TelinArtho 05-29-07, 04:31 PM	As long as the terrain is relatively even. If an obstacle is in the way - no (so columns, trees, statues, rocks, etc).
templer10 05-29-07, 04:35 PM	As long as the terrain is relatively even. If an obstacle is in the way - no (so columns, trees, statues, rocks, etc). well at least the kind of damage this girl can do if she charge will make all the happy archers a lot more afraid then usuall to play hide and seek.... i do get the feeling iam going to need a lot of horses and bring a couple to the fight since peeps will target those horses.
Korone 05-29-07, 04:36 PM	Trying a gnoll for the very first time. Here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12540040&postcount=1138) No ideas if this thing's going to survive, but it could be fun anyway.
TelinArtho 05-29-07, 04:37 PM	Bah... just scrapped another design I was working on. I decided that a lycanthrope troglodyte would be interesting to work out. Managed to get the saving throw for stench up to DC25... then I realized that people that fail are sickened - not nauseous... If it was nauseous - that build would've been fun to work through. Of course, it would've started at ECL10... but it would've been fun... (go go Were-Bactrian Camel Troglodyte...)
McJarvis 05-29-07, 04:38 PM	Trying a gnoll for the very first time. Here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12540040&postcount=1138) No ideas if this thing's going to survive, but it could be fun anyway. Good luck with that! Though certain races like Trogs, Gnolls, Lizard folk, [[fill-in-other-melee type LA/racial hd critters]] almost never do well[Mere-Man the exception?]] in the arena, I'm sure their owners always find them rewarding in the unique challenge they provide :)
templer10 05-29-07, 04:39 PM	Trying a gnoll for the very first time. Here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12540040&postcount=1138) No ideas if this thing's going to survive, but it could be fun anyway. Iam wondering why a gnoll? the Racial bonuses doesnt seem to be worth the level advancment and the racial HD - if you want a high Str mod why not just go orc? same +4 to str and no LA. and quickdraw? really?
TelinArtho 05-29-07, 04:41 PM	well at least the kind of damage this girl can do if she charge will make all the happy archers a lot more afraid then usuall to play hide and seek.... i do get the feeling iam going to need a lot of horses and bring a couple to the fight since peeps will target those horses. No one wanted to play with Sir Valkin after he outfitted Foreman with his set of Horseshoes of Speed after 3 fights. Charging across 120ft of terrain to deal 3d8+9 damage scared a lot of people. When that was boosted to 180ft - no one was safe... Be aware though - charging is difficult to set up because of the obstacles in each arena (plains excluded). If you are focused on it - you are best off to either have a backup plan or a good contingency (fleet of foot for instance on the mount...).
templer10 05-29-07, 04:41 PM	Bah... just scrapped another design I was working on. I decided that a lycanthrope troglodyte would be interesting to work out. Managed to get the saving throw for stench up to DC25... then I realized that people that fail are sickened - not nauseous... If it was nauseous - that build would've been fun to work through. Of course, it would've started at ECL10... but it would've been fun... (go go Were-Bactrian Camel Troglodyte...) lol if we are talking about build - i have an assasin Blink dog in the works that really need ECL 8 and a cohort to hold stuff up for him to work - but it's nasty as hell - that D-door and blink at will is cute.
templer10 05-29-07, 04:43 PM	No one wanted to play with Sir Valkin after he outfitted Foreman with his set of Horseshoes of Speed after 3 fights. Charging across 120ft of terrain to deal 3d8+9 damage scared a lot of people. When that was boosted to 180ft - no one was safe... Be aware though - charging is difficult to set up because of the obstacles in each arena (plains excluded). If you are focused on it - you are best off to either have a backup plan or a good contingency (fleet of foot for instance on the mount...). i have the psionic weapon + 50% to refocus and when i can get flying mount.... and how can you get fleet of foot on the mount exacly?
MindWandererB 05-29-07, 04:44 PM	If it was nauseous - that build would've been fun to work through. Of course, it would've started at ECL10... but it would've been fun... (go go Were-Bactrian Camel Troglodyte...)Just for reference, that would have been illegal anyhow.Size and Type: The base creature’s type does not change, but the creature gains the shapechanger subtype. The lycanthrope takes on the characteristics of some type of carnivorous or omnivorous creature of the animal type (referred to hereafter as the base animal). This animal can be any predator, scavenger, or omnivore whose size is within one size category of the base creature’s size (Small, Medium, or Large for a Medium base creature). Lycanthropes can also adopt a hybrid shape that combines features of the base creature and the base animal. A lycanthrope’s hybrid form is the same size as the base animal or the base creature, whichever is larger.Camels don't eat meat, so they can't be lycanthropes.
TelinArtho 05-29-07, 04:45 PM	Trying a gnoll for the very first time. Here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12540040&postcount=1138) No ideas if this thing's going to survive, but it could be fun anyway. A minor adjustment you will need to make - gnolls are not proficient with Longbows or scimitars or armor spikes by default. As humanoids, they have Simple weapon proficiency and by the description of their entry, they also have Battleaxe and Shortbow proficiency.
Korone 05-29-07, 04:45 PM	No ideas, I simply love gnolls and never had the chance to try one. All I even heard about it, is that it isn't worth it. So what, I'll try and get killed at worst. Quickdraw, yes. So I can shot as many arrows as possible and then engage in melee, if needed, without wasting a move action. Bad idea ? It seems worth it to me.
SauroGrenom 05-29-07, 04:46 PM	i have the psionic weapon + 50% to refocus and when i can get flying mount.... and how can you get fleet of foot on the mount exacly? Mount is a cohort... or a class ally of some kind with advanced HD.
Korone 05-29-07, 04:49 PM	A minor adjustment you will need to make - gnolls are not proficient with Longbows or scimitars or armor spikes by default. As humanoids, they have Simple weapon proficiency and by the description of their entry, they also have Battleaxe and Shortbow proficiency. Aren't they proficient with martial weapons since they are using battle axe and short bow ? And armor spikes doesn't need proficiency as far as I know, as long as you are proficient with an armor type.
TelinArtho 05-29-07, 04:50 PM	i have the psionic weapon + 50% to refocus and when i can get flying mount.... and how can you get fleet of foot on the mount exacly? Well, with the allies being rewritten, it might not be possible at all anymore. The simplest route (in the past) was an elite light/heavy warhorse with a custom feat to replace endurance with fleet of foot. @MWB - noted. I guess I would've just had to go with my second option - a were-guard dog troglodyte... -1 on the DC - so just 24... but I could start him at ECL8. Now I just need to rewrite the rules to make the stench actually worth it for that build (-2 to a bunch of rolls just doesn't seem worth it, especially when the character is pretty weak to begin with). @Korone - ammunition does not need an action to draw. Javelins and the sort would - but not arrows or crossbow bolts. Aren't they proficient with martial weapons since they are using battle axe and short bow ? And armor spikes doesn't need proficiency as far as I know, as long as you are proficient with an armor type. Nope. Here's the entry from the types: —Proficient with all simple weapons, or by character class. —Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, or by character class. If a humanoid does not have a class and wears armor, it is proficient with that type of armor and all lighter types. Humanoids not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Humanoids are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. Technically by this entry they aren't even proficient with the battle axe and short bow - but all of the other "type" entries mention it - so I figured it wasn't really a stretch.
templer10 05-29-07, 04:50 PM	Mount is a cohort... or a class ally of some kind with advanced HD. -hmm - i do have a free feat at level 6 i didnt really think of anything speciel for and leadership is a possibility... i played around with going the bard route since it has very nice buff spells But at the end it's 2 much Mad.
Korone 05-29-07, 04:56 PM	@Korone - ammunition does not need an action to draw. Javelins and the sort would - but not arrows or crossbow bolts. Well, to switch between the bow and the scimitar I can't use. Technically by this entry they aren't even proficient with the battle axe and short bow - but all of the other "type" entries mention it - so I figured it wasn't really a stretch. Right... seems that I got confused.
Korone 05-29-07, 05:04 PM	Changed the weapons accordingly. Any other errors I missed ?
Erithmu 05-29-07, 05:11 PM	Can a person take Bard and Cloistered Cleric levels and have the Lore effect stack?
Yitzi 05-29-07, 05:56 PM	Question: If you use your free action of the first fight of the 3FC to make items, do you get those items for that cycle (because the free action comes before the fight)?
Erithmu 05-29-07, 06:01 PM	Question: If you use your free action of the first fight of the 3FC to make items, do you get those items for that cycle (because the free action comes before the fight)? Anything you make during your 3FC is not available until after you are fully complete with your cycle.
Yitzi 05-29-07, 06:04 PM	Yes, but is the free action of the first fight considered part of the cycle, or does the fact that it occurs before the first fight mean it's considered in between cycles?
MindWandererB 05-29-07, 06:04 PM	Question: If you use your free action of the first fight of the 3FC to make items, do you get those items for that cycle (because the free action comes before the fight)? No. You can't get items mid-cycle. You're considered to be mid-cycle as soon as the first pairing goes up.
Yitzi 05-29-07, 06:14 PM	So that means that a self-crafter needs expendables for 4 fights-fight 3 of the previous cycle (since unless he wants to take a full action he won't get a chance to craft after that fight and still have it apply for the current cycle) and the 3 fights of this cycle.
Usurpator 05-29-07, 06:21 PM	So that means that a self-crafter needs expendables for 4 fights-fight 3 of the previous cycle (since unless he wants to take a full action he won't get a chance to craft after that fight and still have it apply for the current cycle) and the 3 fights of this cycle. Something like that. A crafter needs to craft on his 3rd fight, so that he gets his stuff in time for the next fight. When you level up at the 3rd fight (or the leveling up depends on the outcome of said fight), it's especially nasty.
Zevox 05-29-07, 06:52 PM	Or you could just do a full action crafting between cycles. Thats what all my wizards have done since the 3FC was introduced. Zevox
Yitzi 05-29-07, 08:37 PM	But that means only fighting 3 out of 4 weeks...
Zevox 05-29-07, 08:42 PM	But that means only fighting 3 out of 4 weeks... *shrugs* Never bothered me. Its much more efficient than free activity crafting, and frees up your fight free activities for a money making activity. When you get to higher levels and want to craft more expensive things you need to sit out for several weeks anyway (for instance, warriors who self-craft Adamantine Full Plate take 3 weeks to do so), so if you can't handle 1 week a month of crafting, maybe crafting isn't your thing. Zevox
Macbrea 05-29-07, 09:01 PM	Bah.. one week out ever 4 is a dream! Relanex's Career : Week 1 - 3 Week 1 - 3 Full craft week 1 - 3 Week 1 - 3 Full craft week 1 - 2 Week 1 - 3 Full craft week 1 - 3 So, 12 weeks fighting and 8 weeks crafting.
TelinArtho 05-29-07, 10:24 PM	Bah... Zax and Kraegin have more "impressive" time off schedules than anything so far...
McJarvis 05-29-07, 10:36 PM	I realized that I haven't seen the archtype (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12544329&postcount=1139) in a while. a roSe Dive, for sure.
hogarth 05-29-07, 10:40 PM	I realized that I haven't seen the archtype (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12544329&postcount=1139) in a while. a roSe Dive, for sure. You have the adjustments for "old" age, but the age is listed as "middle".
McJarvis 05-29-07, 10:41 PM	You have the adjustments for "old" age, but the age is listed as "middle". That would be because I use a different notation than the standard[none, first, middle, last]. Fixed.
NiQil 05-29-07, 11:28 PM	So does anyone know of any good websites or have any links to galleries of pics that would be suitable for PC's? I am trying to find a variety of elven fighters, and so far I am not having much luck.
MitzaVolchenko 05-29-07, 11:35 PM	Lots of good pics. (http://www.imagenetion.com/)
Vathelokai 05-29-07, 11:54 PM	So does anyone know of any good websites or have any links to galleries of pics that would be suitable for PC's? I am trying to find a variety of elven fighters, and so far I am not having much luck. I use google search for images and sometimes photobucket.com.
NiQil 05-29-07, 11:58 PM	I use google search for images and sometimes photobucket.com. Google is where I have looked so far...can't really find anything I like. I'll take a look at photobucket.
MitzaVolchenko 05-30-07, 12:00 AM	Google is where I have looked so far...can't really find anything I like. I'll take a look at photobucket. Follow the link I posted...drop down and peruse the fantasy section andthe fantasy archives :)
TheMagister 05-30-07, 12:03 AM	Hey, can somebody do me a favor and post a direct link to the 3.5 XPH Errata Adobe doc? OR, if you think it's easier - what I'm looking for is the errata specifically related to the "Hammer" power. I just wanna make sure of something. Thanks!
SauroGrenom 05-30-07, 12:05 AM	This SRD (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/home.html) is updated with the errata. this is the direct link (http://wizards.com/dnd/files/ExpPsiHdbk_Errata02062006.zip)
TheMagister 05-30-07, 12:15 AM	Thanks. DRAT! I can't open either of those. Crud. I thought that I could go directly to the Adobe doc with no trouble, but I guess not, now. They must've updated the firewall again. Thanks anyhow.
NiQil 05-30-07, 12:21 AM	Thanks. DRAT! I can't open either of those. Crud. I thought that I could go directly to the Adobe doc with no trouble, but I guess not, now. They must've updated the firewall again. Thanks anyhow. Will this help? Page 111: Hammer Power The hammer power has the following statistics: Level: Psion/wilder 1, psychic warrior 1 Display: Auditory and material Manifesting Time: 1 swift action Range: Touch Duration: 1 round Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: Yes Power Points: 1
TheMagister 05-30-07, 12:39 AM	Any change on how it's augmented? The whole "spend 1 pp for 1 extra round" thing? I'm finding that it's hella expensive to put Hammer into a dorje at any reasonable ML because you can't help but augment it. It's not 1 round/level, it's 1 round/ppA. That makes it really expensive in a dorje. Dorje of Hammer [ML4] = (750 x 2nd (pwr lvl) x ML4) = 6000 gp. Q: How does the payment for augmentation, increased manifester levels and/or metapsionic feats work when creating psionic dorjes? A: The formula for buying a dorje is 750 gp x level of the power x manifester level. The crafting rules state that for every 2 manifester levels (with a maximum of 5 above the minimum), you increase the power above the minimum needed to manifest the power, you increase the level of the power by one. This power level will be rounded down in the case of an odd number of additional manifester levels. When you are increasing the level of the power in this fashion, you do not increase it until you have reached the minimum manifester level needed to actually augment the power. As an example, an ML 1 Force Screen dorje would cost 750 gp (750 gp x level 1 power x ML 1). An ML 2 Force Screen dorje would cost 1,500 gp (750 gp x level 1 power x ML 2), an ML 3 would cost 2,250 gp (750 x level 1 x ML 3), an ML 4 would cost 3,000 gp (750 x level 1 x ML 4)...but an ML 5 dorje of Force Screen would then cost 11,250 (750 x level 3 x ML 5), as this is the first ML that you would normally be able to augment this power. Applying metapsionic feats at the time of creation operates in a similar fashion. For every 2 power points spent to add a metapsionic feat to the power, the level of the power increases by one. The manifester level will also increase for every power point used to apply a metapsionic feat to a power. As an example, an ML 1 dorje of Force Screen would cost 750 gp (750 gp x level 1 power x ML 1). The same dorje with the metapsionic feat Extend Power applied to it would cost 4,500 gp (750 gp x level 2 power x ML 3), since the power requires 2 power points to use. Let's say I wanted to use "Extend Power" to try to get some extra mileage. It's not worth it at low levels, especially when "For every 2 power points spent to add a metapsionic feat to the power, the level of the power increases by one." So: Hammer = pwr lvl 1 Augment to ML 3 = +2 ML = +1 pwr lvl Add Extend = 2 pp cost = +1 pwr lvl Total ML: 5 (have spend 3+2(extend) pp) Dorje of Extended HammerA3: 750 x 3 x 5 = 11250 gp Gain: Hammer that lasts 6 rounds. vs. Dorje of HammerA5: 750 x 3 x 5 = 11250 Gain: Hammer that lasts 5 rounds. vs. Dorje of HammerA4: 750 x 2 x 4 = 6000 spend 3 pp so add 3 ML = +1 pwr lvl vs. Dorje of HammerA3: 750 x 2 x 3 = 4500 Man, that's tough to stomach. With no increase in effectiveness besides +duration, it's hard to justify the cost. I was hoping that there was something in the errata that changed Hammer's duration, but I doubt there is. Thanks anyways.
MindWandererB 05-30-07, 12:40 AM	So does anyone know of any good websites or have any links to galleries of pics that would be suitable for PC's? I am trying to find a variety of elven fighters, and so far I am not having much luck. You could always do what I usually do, which is use Hero Machine (www.heromachine.com). The free version is adequate for most needs; the full version is worth every penny I spent.
TheMagister 05-30-07, 12:53 AM	I'm thinking that the Lesser Ring of Spell Storing might be my solution. Instead of Hammer, use Chill Touch cast into a ring at a higher CL. Chill Touch from a CL 10 caster is 10 touches for 100 gp with no round timer - if I miss, the charge holds. When I used 10 charges of Hammer in that FFA (900 gp!), it really opened my eyes to the need for an alternative. I REALLY like the power, but it's too expensive to put into a dorje. What would you say to a Ring of Power Storing, Sauro?
NiQil 05-30-07, 12:59 AM	I'm thinking that the Lesser Ring of Spell Storing might be my solution. Instead of Hammer, use Chill Touch cast into a ring at a higher CL. Chill Touch from a CL 10 caster is 10 touches for 100 gp with no round timer - if I miss, the charge holds. When I used 10 charges of Hammer in that FFA (900 gp!), it really opened my eyes to the need for an alternative. I REALLY like the power, but it's too expensive to put into a dorje. What would you say to a Ring of Power Storing, Sauro? Have you looked at Dissipating Touch? It does d6 per pp spent, and has no duration....so it will stick around until you connect with it. If you put it in a dorje, it's a standard action to manifest, but for 2d6 damage in a dorje you would be looking at 1500 gp....would get you 2d6 per successful hit. I like it for the fact that it doesn't go away until either you connect with it, or you do something to make the charge go away (like manifest another power).
Vathelokai 05-30-07, 01:09 AM	Chill touch gives you the added bonus of doing Str dmg if they fail a save. Heck; if you're spending credits, why not 3/day item at CL 10 ~12,000gp (4000 gold per use per day)
TheMagister 05-30-07, 01:17 AM	Yeah, I know. It's typeless and everything, too. But I'm going for a themed build. The theme is: "How much damage per hit can I stack onto a monk's flurried unarmed strike that sticks around and isn't reminiscent of an Alpha Strike?" So far, I've got: 1d6(unarmed) => 2d6 (unarmed): Monk's Belt plus 2d6 fire (Hand Afire) plus 2d6 fire (Nimbus) plus 1d8 untyped (Hammer) plus 1 (metaphysical weapon) plus 2 (off. presc) plus 1-4 (addl enh like Gr Mag Fang or Amulet of Mighty Fists) plus 1-3 (str from items) That's the best I've got. 2d6+4d6(fire)+1d8(hammer)+3(reasonable stuf)+7(unreasonable stuf that I'll never see) Still, a baseline of 6d6+1d8+3 per strike is pretty darned impressive, I think, especially when you consider that it'll be happening three times a round. That's pretty devastating. If I could convince anyone to let me discharge Produce Flame on a successful hit, then the damage would go up considerably (the 1d6+5 being a helluva lot better than 1d8).
Zevox 05-30-07, 02:20 AM	You could always do what I usually do, which is use Hero Machine (www.heromachine.com). The free version is adequate for most needs; the full version is worth every penny I spent. So thats why all your characters' images look so darn similar! I always wondered about that. Hm... I wonder... *checks out the free version* Nah, doesn't look like I can make a satisfactory image for Asran or Featylec with that. Oh well. So does anyone know of any good websites or have any links to galleries of pics that would be suitable for PC's? I am trying to find a variety of elven fighters, and so far I am not having much luck. I've mostly just perused the WotC galleries here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/ag). I rarely find a perfect fit (Arden is the only one - man, I was shocked to find that one), but theres plenty of good images in there. Still, a baseline of 6d6+1d8+3 per strike is pretty darned impressive, I think, especially when you consider that it'll be happening three times a round. That's pretty devastating. Of course, you do have the major weakness that 4d6 of that is fire damage. Any spellcaster and most manifesters will be able to get least resist 10 against that, and some will do even better and get resist 20-30 or protection from energy to absorb 12 damage/level. So its not quite that impressive. Zevox
TheMagister 05-30-07, 02:44 AM	Of course, you do have the major weakness that 4d6 of that is fire damage. Any spellcaster and most manifesters will be able to get least resist 10 against that, and some will do even better and get resist 20-30 or protection from energy to absorb 12 damage/level. So its not quite that impressive. Zevox And you still don't think it's neat? That's like saying a flaming greatsword's not worth anything. :) I'm gonna have to buy Rubi an alternative method of damage for those occasions that you're referring to. Maybe a quarterstaff and some shillelagh oil (that old standby).
Zevox 05-30-07, 02:52 AM	And you still don't think it's neat? That's like saying a flaming greatsword's not worth anything. :) A flaming weapon is just +1d6 damage. Not everyone will spend time putting up a resistance spell for that, particularly at later levels. But when you're totting +2d6 or especially +4d6 damage of that energy type, yeah, they're going to invest in the resistance. Zevox
Malither76 05-30-07, 03:01 AM	question, I will use Malik as the example as that is who this is about. Ok I have +35% political career and a cohort that cost me 25% penalty, at EL 8 a win is worth 2400xp, so how would the rewards work, I have 2 wins like this but have different rewards, just want to get everything squared away. thanks
Zevox 05-30-07, 03:06 AM	question, I will use Malik as the example as that is who this is about. Ok I have +35% political career and a cohort that cost me 25% penalty, at EL 8 a win is worth 2400xp, so how would the rewards work, I have 2 wins like this but have different rewards, just want to get everything squared away. thanks Add 'em together, netting you a +10% modifier. 2,640 xp. Zevox
TheMagister 05-30-07, 03:21 AM	Silly question that I'm afraid I already know the answer to: How long does the enhancement bonus to strength gained and the strength damage dealt by Strength of my Enemy last? To me, the duration of SomE is the time during which you can steal the strength. The damage lasts until it is healed (naturally or magically). But how long does the bonus last? It doesn't really say. I'm afraid that it only lasts for the duration of the power (which kinda sucks).
Malither76 05-30-07, 03:25 AM	Add 'em together, netting you a +10% modifier. 2,640 xp. Zevox ok thanks, I guess I need to have Rauul update the MQ page and correct this.
TheMagister 05-30-07, 06:10 AM	Requesting Affirmation: Found something that I couldn't believe that I hadn't seen before for Rubicanti: Graft Weapon. Relevant Text: "The weapon becomes a natural extension of your arm, and that hand blends seamlessly into the shaft, hilt, or head of the weapon. Now that the weapon and you are one, you gain a +1 competence bonus on all attack and damage rolls while using the weapon." -and- "The grafted weapon is considered both a standard weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of effects that distinguish between either weapon type." Weapon Finesse: "Natural weapons are always considered light weapons." So now I have a natural weapon that's also a club. A club is normally a one-handed weapon, but now it's also a natural weapon, and natural weapons are always considered light weapons, no matter how big they are. Weapon Finesse is an "effect that distinguishes between either weapon type". So then I Shillelagh it. {shrug} Why not? I just wanna make sure that I can Graft a club into a monk's hand and still take advantage of weapon finesse. There's no question of whether or not the monk could flurry with it (it's a club, too).
hogarth 05-30-07, 07:16 AM	I just wanna make sure that I can Graft a club into a monk's hand and still take advantage of weapon finesse. There's no question of whether or not the monk could flurry with it (it's a club, too). I'd say Weapon Finesse would work (since it works on natural weapons) and the flurry wouldn't (not a special monk weapon).
Macbrea 05-30-07, 08:35 AM	Crazy questioni.. does a hold over count against the credit activations?
SauroGrenom 05-30-07, 08:37 AM	Crazy questioni.. does a hold over count against the credit activations? Don't think so.
Khaim 05-30-07, 08:37 AM	McJarvis, you might want to explicitly list your domains somewhere on that new lancer chick. I was somewhat confused. Nice character though.
McJarvis 05-30-07, 08:40 AM	McJarvis, you might want to explicitly list your domains somewhere on that new lancer chick. I was somewhat confused. Nice character though. I believe you're thinking of templer :)
Macbrea 05-30-07, 08:42 AM	Was trying to figure out if activating a 3rd character was going to cost me credits. Otherwise, this will be a quick week for me. :P Relanex - full activity crafting Izumi - held over and tactics already posted
templer10 05-30-07, 08:44 AM	I believe you're thinking of templer :) err right - forgot about that - never made a cleric for the CoCo.
templer10 05-30-07, 08:47 AM	Was trying to figure out if activating a 3rd character was going to cost me credits. Otherwise, this will be a quick week for me. :P Relanex - full activity crafting Izumi - held over and tactics already posted Held over dont count and as far as i know you even get a free full activity with that char.
McJarvis 05-30-07, 09:08 AM	Need clarification on a court ruling. Q: Does the Combat Expertise>Improved Trip>Knockdown feat chain allow you to perform an attack>trip>attack combo? A: No. As Knockdown provides a free trip after a standard action, you do not have a standard action to give up to perform the trip required to receive the free attack that Improved provides. If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt. shouldn't the court ruling read: Q: Does the Combat Expertise>Improved Trip>Knockdown feat chain allow you to perform an attack>trip>attack combo? A: No. Improved trip allows you to make an extra attack as if you hadn't used your trip attack for a trip attempt. As Knockdown only provides a free trip after a damaging blow, there is no legal attack action to "replace" the trip attack with. That stuff about "Standard actions" is not only confusing-> but not correct per-rules. [Standard actions have nothing to do with it]
templer10 05-30-07, 09:12 AM	Need clarification on a court ruling. shouldn't the court ruling read: That stuff about "Standard actions" is not only confusing-> but not correct per-rules. [Standard actions have nothing to do with it] you are right- the ruling is written badly - i already asked about it.
SauroGrenom 05-30-07, 09:16 AM	The question is not about when you get a free trip... The question is about if you get a free extra attack after you got a free trip in the first place. You may be able to come up with a better wording, but the basic point is that you cannot use a "bonus" trip attempt from Knockdown to gain a "bonus" attack from Improved Trip. Both of these feats intend for their bonus actions to be provided if you have taken the prescribed triggering standard action.
McJarvis 05-30-07, 09:23 AM	The question is not about when you get a free trip... The question is about if you get a free extra attack after you got a free trip in the first place. You may be able to come up with a better wording, but the basic point is that you cannot use a "bonus" trip attempt from Knockdown to gain a "bonus" attack from Improved Trip. Both of these feats intend for their bonus actions to be provided if you have taken the prescribed triggering standard action. That was what my suggested revision stated. Your granted a free trip attack. Improved trip allows you to make a regular attack as if you didn't make the trip attack. If you hadn't made the trip attack there would be no other attack, thus you don't get a "free" attack from improved trip. Talking about "getting free standard actions" is confusing & doesn't pertain to the rules. [It sounds more like someone's internal dialogue of what's really going on] Examples: Knockdown works on AoO's & full attacks, neither of which involve standard actions. [And both of which wouldn't trigger Improved Trip] edit-> Interesting...If you held an action expressly to trip someone, would improved trip trigger? Technically you didn't have an action to do anything but trip the person in question!
Erithmu 05-30-07, 09:33 AM	ok thanks, I guess I need to have Rauul update the MQ page and correct this. Except Political career only works in the arena not on quests/missions/campaigns
Usurpator 05-30-07, 10:19 AM	You may be able to come up with a better wording, but the basic point is that you cannot use a "bonus" trip attempt from Knockdown to gain a "bonus" attack from Improved Trip. Both of these feats intend for their bonus actions to be provided if you have taken the prescribed triggering standard action. I still consider it a house rule for balance. If you use a full attack to attack, you can still use any of your attacks to trip, right? Are you now saying that because it isn't a standard action, you cannot trip? Are you able to trip on an AoO? (since it is also a bonus attack?) I remember a hefty 'replacement' discussion where a 'trip' replaced an 'attack' and not a standard action. And since a trip from a Knockdown is not an 'attack' you could not replace it. At least, that is what I remember from 9 months or so ago.
McJarvis 05-30-07, 10:26 AM	I still consider it a house rule for balance. If you use a full attack to attack, you can still use any of your attacks to trip, right? Are you now saying that because it isn't a standard action, you cannot trip? Are you able to trip on an AoO? (since it is also a bonus attack?) I remember a hefty 'replacement' discussion where a 'trip' replaced an 'attack' and not a standard action. And since a trip from a Knockdown is not an 'attack' you could not replace it. At least, that is what I remember from 9 months or so ago. The logic makes sense to me-> Improved trip lets you replace the trip attack itself with another legal attack. Since you can't use the extra attack from knockdown for anything but a trip(and you can't re-trip someone), there is no attack from Improved Trip. It shouldn't be a house-rule, but the way it's phrased it really sounds like it is. Again-> The wording in the court ruling is very bad as it stands right now. It needs to be revised.
SoulLord 05-30-07, 11:12 AM	Actually knockdown has errata clarifying that you dont get the extra attack from improved trip it's on the errata of the original sourcebook where it first was published.
Rauul 05-30-07, 12:27 PM	Was trying to figure out if activating a 3rd character was going to cost me credits. Otherwise, this will be a quick week for me. :P Relanex - full activity crafting Izumi - held over and tactics already posted I'm a trying to finish Izumi and the Duet.. Fell asleep at the keyboard last night.. but would rather hold it over than rush it ..
McJarvis 05-30-07, 12:28 PM	I'm a trying to finish Izumi and the Duet.. Fell asleep at the keyboard last night.. but would rather hold it over than rush it .. No worries here. TM is prolly used to me delaying things out the wazoo, and you can just beat Mac up if he gives you any lip. ;)
Rauul 05-30-07, 12:34 PM	No worries here. TM is prolly used to me delaying things out the wazoo, and you can just beat Mac up if he gives you any lip. ;) me give anyone lip... Who me.. Sweet Innocent little Sarcastic me? :plotting: :schemes: :rofl:
MitzaVolchenko 05-30-07, 12:37 PM	No worries here. TM is prolly used to me delaying things out the wazoo, and you can just beat Mac up if he gives you any lip. ;) I wouldn't lay a bet on that :) Keep in mind that Rauul is my roommate and Mac is my man...and this isn't just girlfriend loyalty :P
Macbrea 05-30-07, 01:16 PM	I am not worried about it. I set another character to active and am fine with Izumi taking multiple weeks per fight as long as they are done right.
McJarvis 05-30-07, 01:26 PM	Just occured to me: Assuming that everyone who has quested//announced they will be one, will be one....is Warmind the most popular prestige class around here? It's like *the only* super-good melee prestige class... :-O
MindWandererB 05-30-07, 01:29 PM	So thats why all your characters' images look so darn similar! I always wondered about that. Hm... I wonder... *checks out the free version* Nah, doesn't look like I can make a satisfactory image for Asran or Featylec with that. Oh well.I might be able to do something with the full version when I get back (no time now). But I'm surprised you can't do anything with the free version--it's got the bat wings, several skin textures and unlimited colors... okay, the weapons are a little lacking. Unless you have something fairly specific in mind.
templer10 05-30-07, 01:29 PM	Just occured to me: Assuming that everyone who has quested//announced they will be one, will be one....is Warmind the most popular prestige class around here? It's like *the only* super-good melee prestige class... :-O well it is supirior to psy - fighter in almost every way - better BaB, HD, MUCH better class features, more PPS. the only thing it's not as good at is the lack of powers But that can be compensated.
hogarth 05-30-07, 01:50 PM	Just occured to me: Assuming that everyone who has quested//announced they will be one, will be one....is Warmind the most popular prestige class around here? It's like *the only* super-good melee prestige class... :-O [Illithid] Slayer is probably equally good, although its best goodies aren't very front-loaded. In fact, why not take both classes? :)
McJarvis 05-30-07, 01:54 PM	[Illithid] Slayer is probably equally good, although its best goodies aren't very front-loaded. In fact, why not take both classes? :) Requirements on Illithid slayer at least are somewhat of a deterrant on taking levels in it. Warmind, in my eyes, is far easier to set up the first five levels for, too. [No need for full-casting classes, can dip in 2->3 different classes.... :-O ] I knew it was good when I saw that all of it's abilities can be used 3x per day. Didn't realize the raw potential until the "war rush" a few weeks ago. [Which as far as I can recall sparked right after I announced that Zaroff was going warmind ;) ]
Zevox 05-30-07, 01:57 PM	I might be able to do something with the full version when I get back (no time now). But I'm surprised you can't do anything with the free version--it's got the bat wings, several skin textures and unlimited colors... okay, the weapons are a little lacking. Unless you have something fairly specific in mind. For Asran at least, yeah, fairly specific. There doesn't seem to be any way to get his horns or clawed hands and feet in there, and none of the mouths were acceptable. The armor would've been a huge stretch as well, since none of it looks in the least crystalline. I never even got to the weapons, but if there isn't at least a battleaxe in there, yeah, thats a problem too. For Featylec, I just gave up after seeing the few poses available. All the images are too buff-looking to be him. But don't you worry about it. I'm not all that concerned with getting my characters images (seriously, I've gone without e'm for a year and a half now, and only recently started grabbing some from the WotC galleries), I just thought it might be nifty if I could make custom ones for free. I can't, no big deal. No need to spend your time doing it for me. Just occured to me: Assuming that everyone who has quested//announced they will be one, will be one....is Warmind the most popular prestige class around here? It's like *the only* super-good melee prestige class... :-O I think Slayer could give it a run for its money in popularity and effectiveness. I know we have had an influx of War Minds recently (Durin, Arden, El Rapido, Valan), but they haven't been too common in the past (I can only recall Karen Douglas from PSI), and Slayers have always been popular. Zevox
templer10 05-30-07, 01:57 PM	[Illithid] Slayer is probably equally good, although its best goodies aren't very front-loaded. In fact, why not take both classes? :) Illitid slayer is more of a full manifesting class PRC since it gives the advancment in the same type of manifesting you had prior to the PRC But it can be combined with warmind if you dont mind missing out on the later abiliteis of war mind.
McJarvis 05-30-07, 02:00 PM	(Durin, Arden, El Rapido, Valan You can add Zaroff & Tessero to that list. Plus my soon-to-be-released nugget.
hogarth 05-30-07, 02:01 PM	Requirements on Illithid slayer at least are somewhat of a deterrant on taking levels in it. Warmind, in my eyes, is far easier to set up the first five levels for, too. [No need for full-casting classes, can dip in 2->3 different classes.... :-O ] Slayer is just as easy to enter unless you're really feat-starved, IMO, and there's no problem whatsoever with dipping into various classes. You pretty much need a full-casting class to enter War Mind, as well (because of the ranks in K: Psionics -- I include PsyWar as a full-casting class). I knew it was good when I saw that all of it's abilities can be used 3x per day. Didn't realize the raw potential until the "war rush" a few weeks ago. [Which as far as I can recall sparked right after I announced that Zaroff was going warmind ;) ] I've been an admirer of War Mind for a long time -- one of my entries in the UnCon competition was a whirling frenzy wolf totem barbarian/cloistered cleric/war mind (based on a character I had in a PbP game once).
Zevox 05-30-07, 02:01 PM	Didn't realize the raw potential until the "war rush" a few weeks ago. [Which as far as I can recall sparked right after I announced that Zaroff was going warmind ;) ] Now lets not be getting a big head here, McJarvis. Durin and Arden have been around and intending to go War Mind since before you ever posted Zaroff - Durin for quite a long while before, and Arden for at least a few weeks before, probably more counting his original incarnation, which started at ECL 3 before I realized he'd suck until he could get his Mithril Full Plate armor. Just a coincidence of everyone who had the idea for a War Mind at different times getting to it at about the same time. :) Zevox
McJarvis 05-30-07, 02:06 PM	I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree. The very fabric of time & space bended over & all others were influenced by Zaroff before he even came into existance. He killed a Denthian Cleric in one shot. You just can't compete with that. ;)
TelinArtho 05-30-07, 02:08 PM	Grumble grumble. Denthian cleric without armor... Grumble grumble...
templer10 05-30-07, 02:11 PM	I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree. The very fabric of time & space bended over & all others were influenced by Zaroff before he even came into existance. He killed a Denthian Cleric in one shot. You just can't compete with that. ;) i beg to differ - a druid at ECL 6 doing close or over 200 points of dmg in 1 fight i think takes the cap in that non official compatition.
Usurpator 05-30-07, 02:23 PM	i beg to differ - a druid at ECL 6 doing close or over 200 points of dmg in 1 fight i think takes the cap in that non official compatition. What non-official competition? I'll submit Kitaya, who challenged and defeated three random ECL3 gladiators at ECL4. (Yes, the three opponents were allowed to write tactics together).
TelinArtho 05-30-07, 02:27 PM	No.. I am fine with a guideline for newer people to be able to read. Improvisation goes a long way in both directions. Example: I improvise in the spirit of the tactics. Telin as far as I can tell hates to improvise at all. :P Just because this conversation should not occur in the thread it was posted, I'll help move it here. Now HEY! I resemble that remark. I don't hate to improvise. Let's look at my pitlord profile shall we? Just to be clear, I am not opposed to editing a fight until it is cleared by the players involved in most cases. However, I am loathe to edit a fight if the argument used is drawn on a lack of tactics. If I was forced to improvise a tactic because your own tactics were lacking or not clear enough - you can almost be guaranteed that I won't edit the fight. In other words - if I had to improvise and my improvisation didn't work out for you - sorry - that's just your luck. Next time - make sure your tactics include the contingencies needed to avoid improvisations. If I make a rules error - I will happily edit a fight, even if it doesn't look like it will change the result - as I feel that having the rules correctly used is much more important than anything else. If I am pressed for time - I might just edit in a note though. So - if you want to argue for a change in a fight - make sure you can point to clearly worded tactics that indicate that I have either missed or misread the tactic. Quoting your tactic and keeping an even "tone" will get you much more progress than chewing my head off or something similar. So from this you can gather the following: 1. I will edit fights based on rules errors or errors in running tactics. 2. I will not edit fights based on arguments that improvisations were not correct.
Macbrea 05-30-07, 02:32 PM	Heh.. Your profiles almost says..'Hey, If I got to make up stuff for you your going to annoy me!' :P Though, in truth.. your method is less likely to annoy people then mine.
Usurpator 05-30-07, 02:39 PM	This is largely unnecessary. Perhaps it belongs in a guide for how players should respond to fights. I have seen plenty of players argue and threaten to get what they want. In the heat of the moment, when they feel they are right, many of us feel that way. Of course, I have written these guidelines a long time ago, when Caterane had the tendency to 'instruct' Pitlords to edit a fight as per his suggestions when he lost. And often he instructed them to do very specific things. I clearly remember the fight where Uhme got shot down and he gave the Pitlord a very specific tactic to execute that could not be found anywhere on his submitted tactics. Luni then neatly sidestepped the issue by editing in another apparent error which decided the fight before the given tactic could be executed. The lack of clarity of certain CoCo rules usually meant (to me) that Cat used it to his advantage because he *knew* that the rules were meant to interpreted in a certain way. I have gotten quite fearful of the delay rule myself, because I've seen it applied in a multitude of different ways, each time I though we had some kind of agreement, another Pitlord ruled differently. That's why I like to clean up some particular CoCo rules. Improvisation plays a huge part in a Pitlord's job, for beginning (and advanced Pitlords) that are in a pickle and need to improvise, they can be a big help.
hogarth 05-30-07, 02:39 PM	So from this you can gather the following: 1. I will edit fights based on rules errors or errors in running tactics. 2. I will not edit fights based on arguments that improvisations were not correct. I would add: "3. If you specify a dumb tactic, I will use that instead of improvising a new, brilliant tactic."
Usurpator 05-30-07, 02:39 PM	No.. I am fine with a guideline for newer people to be able to read. Improvisation goes a long way in both directions. Example: I improvise in the spirit of the tactics. Telin as far as I can tell hates to improvise at all. :P More reason to provide guidelines if there is disagreement over what should be done. Also, you really shouldn't need to know the Pitlords and provide tactics custom written to each Pitlord, i.e. lots of contingencies if Telin is a pitlord, more general principles when you are a Pitlord. Newer players will be at a disadvantage that way.
templer10 05-30-07, 02:40 PM	Heh.. Your profiles almost says..'Hey, If I got to make up stuff for you your going to annoy me!' :P Though, in truth.. your method is less likely to annoy people then mine. that's more or less EXACLY my attitude towards that- (and also the reason my own t actics are so long....).
templer10 05-30-07, 02:42 PM	More reason to provide guidelines if there is disagreement over what should be done. Also, you really shouldn't need to know the Pitlords and provide tactics custom written to each Pitlord, i.e. lots of contingencies if Telin is a pitlord, more general principles when you are a Pitlord. Newer players will be at a disadvantage that way. well Iam a lwayer by preffesion and the number 1 rule in trial law is KNOW THE JUDGE - the same apply here - the identity of the pitlord DOES matter, ask anyone.
Erithmu 05-30-07, 02:42 PM	Just occured to me: Assuming that everyone who has quested//announced they will be one, will be one....is Warmind the most popular prestige class around here? It's like *the only* super-good melee prestige class... :-O Some of it is the ease of getting into Warmind. Most of the DMG PrCs have a need to be lvl 7 or up and with very 'demanding' feat requirements. First able to take: 6th - Asn, HW, DD, Red Wizard All Psionic except Cerebramancer 7th - MT, Cerebramancer, Duelist, Blackguard, EK 8th - Loremanster, Dwarven Defender, Arc Trick (w/ lvl of Asn), Shadow Dancer, Arc Archer 14th - Archmage, Hierophant I think it is just the nature of the levels that are able to take PrCs. And thats not counting some of the inferiority of some of the Psionic PrCs that you only see very limited selection.
Usurpator 05-30-07, 02:43 PM	In other words - if I had to improvise and my improvisation didn't work out for you - sorry - that's just your luck. Next time - make sure your tactics include the contingencies needed to avoid improvisations. I agree completely. That is the 'improvisation need only to be acceptable'. If the player didn't provide a clear tactics, you need to improvise, and the player then in hindsight provides a multitude of superior tactics to the improvisation: tough...
MitzaVolchenko 05-30-07, 02:45 PM	Sadly, I don't see any way to write up rules for how tactics or imporivsation should be handled. Every pitlord is always going to have a different idea of what is or is not kosher as well as a differing amount of time to think about improvs. Generally speaking, if I improv, I note it in red in the fight with my reasoning behind the improv. If the player then says 'look at what my character has donein similar situations and note that its intelligence/wisdom would indicate at least this much', I'll consider editing with their suggestion. I vastly prefer not to try to read through 9000 contingencies which, IMO, are 90% there to give someone something to argue in a fight. Was reading some random thread somewhere...this seems to apply: The only thing more annoying than someone that can't roleplay a character with an 18 INT is someone that can.
TelinArtho 05-30-07, 02:46 PM	I would add: "3. If you specify a dumb tactic, I will use that instead of improvising a new, brilliant tactic." I don't need to. If the tactics apply - there is no reason to apply an improvisation.
Usurpator 05-30-07, 02:47 PM	well Iam a lwayer by preffesion and the number 1 rule in trial law is KNOW THE JUDGE - the same apply here - the identity of the pitlord DOES matter, ask anyone. Well, I have a degree in law as well. And the whole point of law is to minimize the influence of the judge, since his personal opinion shouldn't matter. The whole point of making laws is to remove the influence of favoritism and personal knowledge and connections. Sure, one Judge might give you 6 years for a crime that another would have given 3 years for. The fact that it happens, and the judge matters, doesn't mean it's either supposed to be so or fair.
Khaim 05-30-07, 02:48 PM	I believe you're thinking of templer :) Oh, sorry. I was reading the newest character, forgot whose it was, and just checked the last poster.
templer10 05-30-07, 02:49 PM	Well, I have a degree in law as well. And the whole point of law is to minimize the influence of the judge, since his personal opinion shouldn't matter. The whole point of making laws is to remove the influence of favoritism and personal knowledge and connections. Sure, one Judge might give you 6 years for a crime that another would have given 3 years for. The fact that it happens, and the judge matters, doesn't mean it's either supposed to be so or fair. Who said anything about fair - iam speaking about facts.
Usurpator 05-30-07, 02:50 PM	Weirdly, I'm seeing people disagree with my suggestion not because of the actual content of my suggestion (which I think should be discussed) but if guidelines should be added. Is there some sort of fear that your freedom as a Pitlord will be lessened by such guidelines? The guidelines are written already, if everybody agrees with them, why not add them? If you disagree with some of them, come forward and please tell why.
Yitzi 05-30-07, 02:51 PM	Just occured to me: Assuming that everyone who has quested//announced they will be one, will be one....is Warmind the most popular prestige class around here? It's like *the only* super-good melee prestige class... :-O Actually, duelist has significant defensive potential with the right build-up--that's the idea behind Daren Legrad.
Usurpator 05-30-07, 02:55 PM	Who said anything about fair - iam speaking about facts. I'm confused then about your point then of quoting that 'fact'? To me you were saying "we don't need to make guidelines to prevent unfair difference between Pitlord's judgements, because unfair difference in judgements happen in real life too?" Well, people in real life cheat too, that doesn't mean we should accept it here now does it?
TelinArtho 05-30-07, 02:56 PM	Weirdly, I'm seeing people disagree with my suggestion not because of the actual content of my suggestion (which I think should be discussed) but if guidelines should be added. Is there some sort of fear that your freedom as a Pitlord will be lessened by such guidelines? The guidelines are written already, if everybody agrees with them, why not add them? If you disagree with some of them, come forward and please tell why. I guess I've just never considered it that important as a player or as a pitlord. I have my definition of what is "allowed" that I try to abide by on both sides of the fence. If I see a rules error - whether it is in my favor or not - I will try to make a mention of it. If I see a tactical error - I will point it out as well. If I see an improvisation that I disagree with that I can't back up with tactical notes - then I do my best to sit silent on the matter. Your concern about the delay rule is much more prevalent in my mind. Though - a solution to that is not easily done either...
hogarth 05-30-07, 02:57 PM	Some of it is the ease of getting into Warmind. Most of the DMG PrCs have a need to be lvl 7 or up and with very 'demanding' feat requirements. First able to take: 6th - Asn, HW, DD, Red Wizard All Psionic except Cerebramancer 7th - MT, Cerebramancer, Duelist, Blackguard, EK 8th - Loremanster, Dwarven Defender, Arc Trick (w/ lvl of Asn), Shadow Dancer, Arc Archer 14th - Archmage, Hierophant You forgot: 5th level - [Illithid] Slayer
Erithmu 05-30-07, 02:59 PM	You forgot: 5th level - [Illithid] Slayer Thats only non-core, none of the psionic classes ... (double checks entry requirements) ... Ok ... it is core, but I don't think take it that way. Unless I dipped in a manifesting class afterwards.
MitzaVolchenko 05-30-07, 03:02 PM	Your concern about the delay rule is much more prevalent in my mind. Though - a solution to that is not easily done either... I officially hate the delay rule. I understand why we have it, but it is rough on certain types of builds. @Usurpator I think I missed the specific 'guidelines' you were talking about. Mind reposting them?
McJarvis 05-30-07, 03:04 PM	Weirdly, I'm seeing people disagree with my suggestion not because of the actual content of my suggestion (which I think should be discussed) but if guidelines should be added. Is there some sort of fear that your freedom as a Pitlord will be lessened by such guidelines? The guidelines are written already, if everybody agrees with them, why not add them? If you disagree with some of them, come forward and please tell why. My comments were more aimed at how the Pitlord should respond to players. It seemed to almost suggest that if a player asks for something, the player is obviously biased & trying to abuse the system. This just isn't the case-> and pitlords need to excercise judgement. Some guidelines: 1) Every player deserves a "clean" fight. This means that one of your greatest priorities should be to give the players a fight that abides by the rules to the letter. -> I have had MULTIPLE other pitlords tell me they were going to just tell PC's "tough luck" b/c they didn't want to deal with editing the fight when errors were obviously in the fight. This is completely unacceptable but because of our "the Pitlord is always right" mentality, it more often than not becomes the rule rather than exception. 2) As a Pitlord, you should force all pre-conceived notions of which player is more powerful, who will win, or even who will give you a harder time in the fight-comments. -> The metagame should not be a factor. It is completely reasonable to expect people to eliminate all bias while they run fights. Most of us are grown-ups here, and are in control of our own minds. 3) A held over fight is a bad thing, but a poorly done fight is worse. -> No matter how few pitlords we have, if we start having fights that are just "winged' then it will decrease the likelyhood of people wanting to join up. 4) The delay rule is not your friend. Hijacked tactics are not your friend. If you have to use delay rules, than it more often than not means you have failed as a Pitlord. If one of your fighters has tactics that are very prone to delay, I consider it your responsibility to PM and clarify with the offending gladiator before posting & playing the fight. If you have to completely hijack a character(ie-> improv him entirely), you probably could have gone the extra mile & PM'd the player in question with the issue. In general, no one is happy when tactics break down[except for the few players who go out of their way to break down opponents tactics in this fashion]. In general, "breaking" tactics is not in the spirit of CoCo, and is in no way healthy competition. Still, this is no excuse for gladiators to skimp on tactics. Pitlord judgement call is still necessary. And that's just off the top of my head.
TelinArtho 05-30-07, 03:19 PM	If you have to use delay rules, than it more often than not means you have failed as a Pitlord. If one of your fighters has tactics that are very prone to delay, I consider it your responsibility to PM and clarify with the offending gladiator before posting & playing the fight. If you have to completely hijack a character(ie-> improv him entirely), you probably could have gone the extra mile & PM'd the player in question with the issue. In general, no one is happy when tactics break down[except for the few players who go out of their way to break down opponents tactics in this fashion]. In general, "breaking" tactics is not in the spirit of CoCo, and is in no way healthy competition. Still, this is no excuse for gladiators to skimp on tactics. Pitlord judgement call is still necessary. Just a little comment to this. PMing the player is not the way to solve issues. I usually don't read tactics until I am set to run the fight. This means that if I have to stop to get a clarification or rewrite on tactics - I might not have the time to wait to get the revision. Also - pitlords should be extremely careful about what they PM back to the player. Asking for contingencies for special situations that are not expected (sundering, disarming and such) would qualify for this. If the player did not expect to be grappled and has no tactics for such - unfortunately you just have to improvise it. If you ask for a revision based on this - you clue the player in on the opponent's tactics. PMs back and forth might be an ideal situation - but given the tight deadlines we usually work with - I think it is sometimes out of the question.
McJarvis 05-30-07, 03:25 PM	Either that or require players insert default tactics for the situations of "items sundered", "grappled", and "Tripped". Regardless, I don't really try to "snipe" other people's tactics on purpose, and generally expect my opponents not to do the same. This is supposed to reflect gladiator fighting-> tactic writing should not be a "game" in and of itself. I don't think it is unreasonable for the Pitlord to PM the gladiator in question. We get tactics by friday night, and since 80% of fights are run on Tuesday morning, I think there is more than enough time for PM correspondance.
Khaim 05-30-07, 03:28 PM	and since 80% of fights are run on Tuesday morning, Yeah, but is that really such a good thing?
Usurpator 05-30-07, 03:28 PM	The Delay Rule (for discussion) The Delay Rules serves two main purposes: Breaking a Stalemate Sometimes the tactics of both of the opposing gladiators cause them to be caught in a stalemate or an endless causative loop. The delay rule is supposed to break such a stalemate. Examples: 1. Both gladiators state in their tactics to sit and wait for their opponent. 2. Gladiator A wants to close for melee, gladiator B wants to stay at range. Both have the same speed. A situation can arise where A continually chases B who keeps makes double moves (or withdraw actions) to escape A. 3. Both gladiators have readied an action to trigger when the other starts spellcasting. They keep staring each other down to infinity. Prevent bypassing limited time effects Many abilities, spells and powers have a limited duration. Gladiators should not be able to overcome these durations by simply evading any combat (possibly for hours or days) while waiting for such abilities to expire. The purpose of the CoCo is to have a fight *here and now*. Generally speaking, gladiators want to face each other on their own terms, and will try to manipulate the situation so that they do. Some of such tactics will cause *non-fights* to happen, others will cause extended periods of *non-fighting*, both are unfun and a headache to the Pitlord. Note that this is my interpretation of the purpose behind the delay rule.
McJarvis 05-30-07, 03:31 PM	Yeah, but is that really such a good thing? Now that is another conversation entirely :)
MitzaVolchenko 05-30-07, 03:40 PM	Okay, I found the original post. On PMing requests for additional tactics...I won't do it. It potentially compromises the other person's tactics. Also, like Telin I rarely look at tactics before I am ready to run the fight. At the moment, I cna't think of any time that I have been accused of bias because I improvised for someone. I agree that improvs should be balanced with improvs where applicable. I have no problem with adding guidelines to the ruleset, but if they are going to be a mandatory point that allows for more argument, I oppose it. On the topic of taking suggestions from a given player when I have improvised, they know their character and the rules surrounding its abilities better than I do. If it is reasonable, I am likely to take the suggestion. In my profile, I make it clear that I prefer to have statemets of what expendables, move actions, etc. are available for use as well as some sort of statement as to whether or not I am allowed to improvise. The Pitlord Profile thread was my suggestion. It lets folks have a place where they can go to se that Telin wants copious, exact tactics, Macbrea prefers a spirit or mission statement style, and I want to know if I am allowed to use a few extra potions if the fight calls for it. I would like to see a link to it added to the FotW opening post. If people feel that the Tuesday deadline is too late, that can be looked at with an eye to changing it back to Monday. If that becomes the case, I will knock back to one fight and we will have even more fights coming in late than we do now...which will penalize and discourage pitlords.
MitzaVolchenko 05-30-07, 03:47 PM	Things the delay rule does that I don't like: Removes the possibility of using certain movement modes effectively (burrow comes to mind). Forces a stealth character to give up the advantage of stealth. Creates a viable necessity of 'take a useless shot to avoid delay' tactics. The problem is that the delay rule is fairly easy to get around and not easy to adjudicate. Is someone delaying when both fighters have no way to reach or affect each other? Is one character's inability to make a spot check a reason to penalize a hidden character who is waiting on range to strike? Every situation is different. Some tactics that abuse the delay rule are the only way to go for some characters. Unfortunately, I don't have a solution.
Macbrea 05-30-07, 03:49 PM	Bah.. with a monday deadline I would have to stop running. That is my normal day for running fights. I simply wouldn't be worth me even bothering.
McJarvis 05-30-07, 03:51 PM	Didn't we used to have a Monday deadline? When we had a little "vacation" for a week a while back someone noted that all the fights still got done within the first day of tactics being due or the last day they were due. I suspect moving it up a day won't matter in the long run for most people, and it might help out a bit on the whole "late fights preventing characters from playing" thing.
Zevox 05-30-07, 03:52 PM	Removes the possibility of using certain movement modes effectively (burrow comes to mind). Only if you stay under the ground for 10 rounds without ever seeking your opponent or attempting to engage them. Forces a stealth character to give up the advantage of stealth. Only if they sit in one place and don't attack (in which case they're not actually fighting, are they?). If they actively seek their foe and/or snipe, they're fine. Zevox
MitzaVolchenko 05-30-07, 03:55 PM	Only if you stay under the ground for 10 rounds without ever seeking your opponent or attempting to engage them. Only if they sit in one place and don't attack (in which case they're not actually fighting, are they?). If they actively seek their foe and/or snipe, they're fine. Zevox Take a look at Indivara's fights...pitlords have consistently forced her to pop her head up because burrow is slow and listen can be tough. And assassins shouldbe setting ambushes, not running inand outof hiding and giving their opponents a chance to spot them.
Macbrea 05-30-07, 03:57 PM	Didn't we used to have a Monday deadline? When we had a little "vacation" for a week a while back someone noted that all the fights still got done within the first day of tactics being due or the last day they were due. I suspect moving it up a day won't matter in the long run for most people, and it might help out a bit on the whole "late fights preventing characters from playing" thing. In my case, it would matter... I don't have time to run on saturday or sunday. And with tactics not coming in til friday night. That means fights get started on Monday night and done on tuesday day for me. Now, granted I only run 1 fight per week so no major loss.
Zevox 05-30-07, 04:03 PM	Take a look at Indivara's fights...pitlords have consistently forced her to pop her head up because burrow is slow and listen can be tough. Considering you have no other way to locate an above-ground foe, I kinda figured you'd want to do that anyway. And assassins shouldbe setting ambushes, not running inand outof hiding and giving their opponents a chance to spot them. Ambushes only work if you know your target is going to be where you want them to be. In the kind of setting we have, that doesn't happen, so you need to go find your foe. Zevox
TelinArtho 05-30-07, 04:04 PM	Take a look at Indivara's fights...pitlords have consistently forced her to pop her head up because burrow is slow and listen can be tough. And assassins shouldbe setting ambushes, not running inand outof hiding and giving their opponents a chance to spot them. And without tremorsense - how is she supposed to locate her opponent while underground? Listen would not work. This is why burrowing doesn't work for her.
TelinArtho 05-30-07, 04:11 PM	If a Cleric 3 had the Improved Turning feat and was evil (rebuke/command) - could he use Command a 2HD undead? I think the answer is yes - but I'd rather ask now and be sure than create a character and find out I'm wrong later :) It appears I never got an answer to this question about a week ago... now that I'm back to working on the build - anyone care to answer?
Usurpator 05-30-07, 04:12 PM	Take a look at Indivara's fights...pitlords have consistently forced her to pop her head up because burrow is slow and listen can be tough. If she's there to fight, but chooses an avoidance tactic and she's too slow to execute any attack, then she should be penalized. It's not that burrowing in itself is bad as a means to attack your opponent, it is just that it has the potential for abuse where you use it to bypass your opponent's limited-duration abilities. If Indivara has a burrow speed of 100, it would probably be less of a problem. There are people paying to see these fights you know ;) What I do find unfair is that you have little ability to predict when and how a Pitlord will punish Indivara for being too slow. Pixies and Ghost are similarly infamous for their evasion abilities with natural invisibility, flight, incorpereality and the size of the map. They should be able to avoid most others indefinitely if they should choose to do so. Enemy casts mage armor? Just wait for 8 hours and it dissipates... For those others that cannot force such evasive characters to fight, the best they can hope for is a draw. Evasive builds and forced draws are generally considered *unfun*. I personally don't like to fight Pixie or Ghosts at all, their natural abilities simply disable most of my tactical options and usually force me to fight an evasive fight as well. And assassins shouldbe setting ambushes, not running inand outof hiding and giving their opponents a chance to spot them. Assassins are poor gladiators. Some builds and even some character classes have very specific roles, not all of these fit into the 'gladiator' concept. Assassins have a hard time in a regular adventuring party too, they are mostly solo artists as that is where they thrive.
Zevox 05-30-07, 04:16 PM	IMPROVED TURNING [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Ability to turn or rebuke creatures. Benefit: You turn or rebuke creatures as if you were one level higher than you are in the class that grants you the ability. Sure looks to me like the answer is "yes" Telin. Assassins are poor gladiators. Not necessarily. Hide in Plain Sight works wonders for them. Take a look at The Chameleon, for example - unless you have an insane spot check, are fighting on the Plains, or have Touchsight or something similar, you're going to have a hell of a time beating her. ...well, thanks to one of our house rules, a good listen check would help a lot too, but thats just a house rule. And one I wish we'd do away with. Zevox
Yitzi 05-30-07, 04:17 PM	It appears I never got an answer to this question about a week ago... now that I'm back to working on the build - anyone care to answer? I believe the answer is yes, he also uses a base level of 4 for determining how powerful an undead he can turn, and his damage roll is 2d6+4+CHA bonus. I believe he is still limited to controlling 6 HD of undead in total.
TelinArtho 05-30-07, 04:19 PM	Sure looks to me like the answer is "yes" Telin. Cool. Now I just need to get the allies "laws" repealed so that my cleric can quest for an ally at ECL3...
templer10 05-30-07, 04:19 PM	It appears I never got an answer to this question about a week ago... now that I'm back to working on the build - anyone care to answer? i dont see why not - even without improved turning an ECL3 cleric can in theory command a 7 HD undead if he got a 22 on the turning check (possible if not easy) and 14 on the turn damage (again possible but not easy).
Khaim 05-30-07, 04:21 PM	i dont see why not - even without improved turning an ECL3 cleric can in theory command a 7 HD undead if he got a 22 on the turning check (possible if not easy) and 14 on the turn damage (again possible but not easy). Not true. Your LEVEL must be twice the undead's, not your turn damage.
Zevox 05-30-07, 04:24 PM	Cool. Now I just need to get the allies "laws" repealed so that my cleric can quest for an ally at ECL3... You could always just start him/her at ECL 5 and begin by questing for some 3 HD undead. Zevox
templer10 05-30-07, 04:26 PM	Not true. Your LEVEL must be twice the undead's, not your turn damage. ha - never noticed - turning isnt something that's usually popular.
MitzaVolchenko 05-30-07, 04:26 PM	And without tremorsense - how is she supposed to locate her opponent while underground? Listen would not work. This is why burrowing doesn't work for her. Listen DC's distance penalties aren't that bad underground...it does work at least as well as someone with a +1 spot/listen trying to locate a +12 hide/ms.
TelinArtho 05-30-07, 04:28 PM	You could always just start him/her at ECL 5 and begin by questing for some 3 HD undead. Zevox I'm much more interested in starting characters at ECL3 and the only times I have not done so are the occasions when the race/template forces me to start higher. And plus - who said anything about undead...
Usurpator 05-30-07, 04:29 PM	Not necessarily. Hide in Plain Sight works wonders for them. Take a look at The Chameleon, for example - unless you have an insane spot check, are fighting on the Plains, or have Touchsight or something similar, you're going to have a hell of a time beating her. Possibly, but I consider it purely a side effect of the poorly worded and weirdly broken Hide in Plain Sight ability. Even then, the Chameleon's ability is not due to his assassin class but due to his Shadowdancer class. To me it's not an assassin, more like a weird kind of blink dog. Hide in Plain Sight is an artificial rules construct I could never explain to one of my players. I'm glad that I haven't needed to fight a character like that, because I would pull out all the tricks in the books, and it would probably end in a weird kind of rules argument.
McJarvis 05-30-07, 04:29 PM	Assassins are poor gladiators. Some builds and even some character classes have very specific roles, not all of these fit into the 'gladiator' concept. Assassins have a hard time in a regular adventuring party too, they are mostly solo artists as that is where they thrive. Reading this is like a breath of fresh air. For so long I've had to hear people speak of the unbalance towards bards and rogues... :)
TelinArtho 05-30-07, 04:31 PM	Listen DC's distance penalties aren't that bad underground...it does work at least as well as someone with a +1 spot/listen trying to locate a +12 hide/ms. Well the DC to listen increases by +5 for listening through a door or +15 for listening through a stone wall. Both of these are not incredibly thick. Unless you are burrowing at the surface (in which case you are visible), you would be subject to at least the +5 penalty - but probably something closer to +10... And while it might be working as well as a +1 spot/listen vs +12 hide/ms - the listener is usually moving a spot faster than 10ft/move action and actually has a chance to spot someone...
Zevox 05-30-07, 04:34 PM	Even then, the Chameleon's ability is not due to his assassin class but due to his Shadowdancer class. Assassins get the same ability, though, they just have to wait longer for it. I'm glad that I haven't needed to fight a character like that, because I would pull out all the tricks in the books, and it would probably end in a weird kind of rules argument. Then I guess you should be glad you don't have any ECL 10 characters - my Featylec Elendi (at that level) is the only current Shadowdancer in the arena. Not very successful, due in no small part to his poor record before his campaign and horrid luck in several fights afterward, but hes a blast to play, inside the arena and out. Zevox
SoulLord 05-30-07, 04:34 PM	Not necessarily. Hide in Plain Sight works wonders for them. Take a look at for example - unless you have an insane spot check, are fighting on the Plains, or have Touchsight or something similar, you're going to have a hell of a time beating her. Zevox or a horse,dog etc.. with scent
Zevox 05-30-07, 04:37 PM	or a horse,dog etc.. with scent By the time you can get Hide in Plain Sight, any of those are easy pickings. And in any event, scent (and blindsight/sense) kinda fell under the "similar to touchsight" category I mentioned. Zevox
Zevox 05-30-07, 04:40 PM	Question: Would a character using a Ghost Touch weapon and the blink spell ignore the normal miss chance the spell imposes on their attacks? It seems a logical extension of the rules of the spell, but its only spelled out specifically for those attacking the blinker, not the blinker himself. Zevox
templer10 05-30-07, 04:41 PM	if you want something that will really make you cry think Blink dog shadowdancer it's reachable at ECL 10 and it nutrilize the rather limited range of both scent and touchsight- properly optimized i think it's possible to be essentially unattackble exept by someone with touchsight and even then only as an ready action on spot. (that is if you can maintain Hide after a d-door - something iam not sure off).
templer10 05-30-07, 04:46 PM	Question: Would a character using a Ghost Touch weapon and the blink spell ignore the normal miss chance the spell imposes on their attacks? It seems a logical extension of the rules of the spell, but its only spelled out specifically for those attacking the blinker, not the blinker himself. Zevox i think so - when blinking you go etheral - a ghost touch weapon can strike at both etheral and corporeal beings and is considered Both corporeal or incorpearal at the same time so i think that even if you yourself is blinking on the attack the weapon isnt.
Yitzi 05-30-07, 04:48 PM	Question: Would a character using a Ghost Touch weapon and the blink spell ignore the normal miss chance the spell imposes on their attacks? It seems a logical extension of the rules of the spell, but its only spelled out specifically for those attacking the blinker, not the blinker himself. Zevox If the attack is capable of striking ethereal creatures, the miss chance is only 20% (for concealment). if you want something that will really make you cry think Blink dog shadowdancer it's reachable at ECL 10 and it nutrilize the rather limited range of both scent and touchsight- properly optimized i think it's possible to be essentially unattackble exept by someone with touchsight and even then only as an ready action on spot. (that is if you can maintain Hide after a d-door - something iam not sure off). It also raises the question of whether every 2 rounds under blink counts as 1 round toward the 10 round leaving the map penalty.
MitzaVolchenko 05-30-07, 04:48 PM	On burrowing...do we penalize someone for having a 20' movement and a hide/ms beyond the reasonable? Why do we penalize someone for having a slow movement mode that happens to also make it so that their oppoent has to dig them up? Macbrea's Marcus Tallfellow (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8106982#post8106982) is a good example of absurdly high hide/move silently. His normal movement is 20'. Should he be penalized because he has realtively low spot/listen and can't find his foe and can't move fast enough to run madly around the arena until he finds his foe? My opinion on delay is that if a character is actively seeking their foe, they aren't in delay and don't get penalized. Being slow or half blind shouldn't create a penalty.
SoulLord 05-30-07, 04:48 PM	By the time you can get Hide in Plain Sight, any of those are easy pickings. And in any event, scent (and blindsight/sense) kinda fell under the "similar to touchsight" category I mentioned. Zevox Probably but since its much easier to get something with scent I thought it would be worth mentioning it. besides if you start to kill off puppies you will likely give off your location
templer10 05-30-07, 04:51 PM	It also raises the question of whether every 2 rounds under blink counts as 1 round toward the 10 round leaving the map penalty. you arent leaving the map while blinking you are simply going etheral in the same location - and yes i know it's a diffrent plane - but that's just splitting hairs since you are targetable.
Usurpator 05-30-07, 04:54 PM	Mitza, just reading some of your tactics for Indivara, and I think they contain a lot of evasion: If Leif is flying watch him until he gives up and comes down to earth where he belongs. I doubt he will try this tactic as he does not have any particular aerial superiority. You are waiting passively for the other to 'agree' to fight on your terms. I could have countered with: If Indivara is hiding and waiting, just wait until she gives up and flies up into the sky where she belongs. Both tactics now mirror each other, but they will cause a non-fight to happen. Obviously the Pitlord has to step in. Repeat as necessary, Iam fine with a long patient stalk while he wastes spells. Would I be your opponent I would realize this, and would counter it with something like: Don't waste spells unless she shows herself, I'm fine with a long patient wait as long as she keeps hiding. Once again a mirror tactic that will probably cause infinite stall. The idea here is to not give him a target until she can close to melee without taking a readied action from him. Indivara can tell that he is readying if he is moving slowly and doing nothing else. Please, do not flap her out into the open and into a readied action. Obviously, Leif would want to get that readied action off. He might counter with. Ready enervation upon sight of her, don't go flying around and give her the initative, just keep readying until she show herself. Once again a mirror tactic, perfectly viable and reasonable, but possible resulting in a non-fight. If for some reason, Leif is not at all visible/audible after several rounds, assume invisibility, burrow and use listen to try to locate him. Do not attack without a pinpoint. Since common delay penalties are dispels, Indi is fine with that. Since you actually decrease your odds of finding him by burrowing, as a Pitlord I can only assume that you are trying to counter his invisibility by just making it so hard for you two to find each other, that his invisibility will run out before that happens. Please note, my first inclination is to stick strictly to burrowing. It is a legal movement mode for her and while slow and difficult for her to find her prey, should never count as delay on her part. I'm confused why you should think a legal movement mode should never count as delay. I don't see any other reason for you to use the burrow to infinitely delay the fight until your opponent finally gives in and agrees to your terms of engagement. If you would face one of my characters, I would simply mirror-write tactics, which would result in a draw without some sort of delay rule. You want Indi to attack in a situations that favor her, and that is fine, but you provide now real tactics to force that situation on to your opponent. Since you are dependent on your opponent cooperating with you, they delay rule will (and should hit) when you opponent refuses to cooperate.
MitzaVolchenko 05-30-07, 05:01 PM	Didn't say I had answers for everything...common delay peanlties are dispels and pointing out locations. Improvising someone's tactics to stand them up and hand them an auto-loss is wrong...take a look at Relanex's forest map fight...he specified his position and was stood up into a barrage without even hitting ten rounds... The fact that most people don't have a counter for burrowers is not a reason to nerf burrowers, it is a reason for people to come up with coutnering tactics...like say a simple summon celestial badger.
Zevox 05-30-07, 05:06 PM	Yitzi - The quote from the spell you posted refers to attackers striking the blinker, not the reverse. The blinker normally has only 20% miss chance to begin with. Templer10 - Thats my reasoning as well, but its not spelled out in the spell, so I wanted to see what everyone else thought. I could easily someone trying to contest it, so I didn't want to assume. In case ya'll are wondering, I'm asking because I'm considering getting a Ring of Blinking for Featylec. The abilities it provides could help him a lot, and if he got his Rapier enchanted with the Ghost Touch ability and the answer to the above question is "yes", he wouldn't even have a miss chance unless he absolutely had to use his bow (which can't be made Ghost Touch, annoyingly). Zevox
Usurpator 05-30-07, 05:22 PM	The fact that most people don't have a counter for burrowers is not a reason to nerf burrowers, it is a reason for people to come up with coutnering tactics...like say a simple summon celestial badger. You don't need a counter against evading characters, because they don't threaten you. Evading characters need to find a way to use their evasive tactics in an offensive way. If someone turns invisible/flies away/melds into stone/burrows/keeps running away, it's not on the other gladiator to come up with a counter, it's up to the evading character to actually engage. You keep on insisting on using your evasion to have opponents on engaging on your terms. They don't have any stronger obligation to do so than you have to engage on their (by sticking your head up out of the ground). Obviously, something's gotta give, hence the delay rule. If you evade in such a way that you are unable to take offensive action against your opponent, your evasion has gone too far. That's the general spirit of the rule. It's a bit like a boxing match, if one boxer just evades and the other attacks, the victory will go to the attacker, even if none of them lands one blow in the end.
MitzaVolchenko 05-30-07, 06:52 PM	Guess we agree to disagree and the rule will keep being debated. I hate the delay rule. I think it is vague and biased toward certain character types.
TheMagister 05-30-07, 07:39 PM	Yitzi - The quote from the spell you posted refers to attackers striking the blinker, not the reverse. The blinker normally has only 20% miss chance to begin with. Templer10 - Thats my reasoning as well, but its not spelled out in the spell, so I wanted to see what everyone else thought. I could easily someone trying to contest it, so I didn't want to assume. In case ya'll are wondering, I'm asking because I'm considering getting a Ring of Blinking for Featylec. The abilities it provides could help him a lot, and if he got his Rapier enchanted with the Ghost Touch ability and the answer to the above question is "yes", he wouldn't even have a miss chance unless he absolutely had to use his bow (which can't be made Ghost Touch, annoyingly). Zevox It seems to me that I'm remembering something pertinent to this: Force effects generated on the material plane can affect targets on the material plane and on the ethereal plane. Force effects generated on the ethereal plane can affect targets on the ethereal plane only. No spell or physical effects can affect a target on the material plane when the spell or physical effect is generated on the ethereal plane. I think you should do a search for the "ghost discussion" for all this stuff. I'm 95% sure that a ghost touch weapon used from the ethereal plane is no more effective than a non-magical sword when used to try to attack a target on the material plane unless it is being wielded by a manifesting ghost. The description of the Ethereal Plane in the DMG (pg. 225) states clearly that "Spells function normally on the EP, though they do not cross into the MP." and "No magical attacks cross from the EP to the MP, including force attacks." An attack with a Ghost Touch weapon is a physical way to deliver a magically enhanced attack, IMO. Also, in the language of the Blink spell, it states that "An ethereal creature can't attack material creatures,..." which sounds pretty final. Notice that in the description of Ghost Touch, it differentiates between an incorporeal creature being able to "pick up and move" a GT weapon, while only a manifesting ghost can actually "wield" it against material foes. Why make that distinction if it isn't important to keep Ethereal inhabitants from attacking Material inhabitants? The reverse is not true: a ghost touch weapon used from the material plane can strike creatures on the ethereal plane (because the ethereal inhabitant is considered to be incorporeal to the material inhabitant). It seems obvious to me that the EP is supposed to serve as a reconnaisance and travel tool, and not as a reliable or effective means of combat unless one can shift between the EP and the MT rapidly (and thus become targetable by material foes). Just my 2cp. TM
hogarth 05-30-07, 09:29 PM	I'm 95% sure that a ghost touch weapon used from the ethereal plane is no more effective than a non-magical sword when used to try to attack a target on the material plane unless it is being wielded by a manifesting ghost. What he said. A ghost touch weapon helps incorporeal creatures, not ethereal creatures.
TheMagister 05-30-07, 09:56 PM	Well, a creature on the ethereal plane is considered incorporeal to a creature on the material plane. My assertation was that a creature on the ethereal could pick up and move a ghost touch weapon, but it could not wield it unless it were a ghost that could manifest itself onto the material plane.
hogarth 05-30-07, 10:00 PM	Well, a creature on the ethereal plane is considered incorporeal to a creature on the material plane. No. Ethereal is ethereal and incorporeal is incorporeal. The only place where they intersect is in the case of a manifesting ghost. Etherealness Phase spiders and certain other creatures can exist on the Ethereal Plane. While on the Ethereal Plane, a creature is called ethereal. Unlike incorporeal creatures, ethereal creatures are not present on the Material Plane.
Vathelokai 05-30-07, 10:19 PM	I'm much more interested in starting characters at ECL3 and the only times I have not done so are the occasions when the race/template forces me to start higher. And plus - who said anything about undead... Yeah, didn't you hear that Denth the Summoner is showing an interest in the elemental planes... Question: Would a character using a Ghost Touch weapon and the blink spell ignore the normal miss chance the spell imposes on their attacks? It seems a logical extension of the rules of the spell, but its only spelled out specifically for those attacking the blinker, not the blinker himself. The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time, whichever is more beneficial to the wielder. You “blink” back and forth between the Material Plane and the Ethereal Plane. ... Likewise, your own attacks have a 20% miss chance, since you sometimes go ethereal just as you are about to strike. I'm 95% sure that a ghost touch weapon used from the ethereal plane is no more effective than a non-magical sword when used to try to attack a target on the material plane unless it is being wielded by a manifesting ghost. Here's the problem (as TM points out). The rules allow ghost touch weapons to be used by incorporeal creatures, not ethereal ones. *EDIT* My gut reaction is to allow it, but I'd like to review more rules first. It also raises the question of whether every 2 rounds under blink counts as 1 round toward the 10 round leaving the map penalty. Blink doesn't cause you to leave the arena for a full round ever; so it does not count as 'leaving'. The 'absence' rule counts in full rounds (at least, this is my interpretation of it).
TheMagister 05-30-07, 10:23 PM	No. Ethereal is ethereal and incorporeal is incorporeal. The only place where they intersect is in the case of a manifesting ghost. Odd. I was going off of this: A traveler on the Ethereal Plane is invisible, incorporeal, and utterly silent to someone on the Material Plane.
hogarth 05-30-07, 11:05 PM	Odd. I was going off of this: "A traveler on the Ethereal Plane is invisible, incorporeal, and utterly silent to someone on the Material Plane." There's similar (but not quite equivalent) wording in the SRD: "Ethereal creatures are invisible, inaudible, insubstantial, and scentless to creatures on the Material Plane."
Yitzi 05-31-07, 01:05 AM	Question: can a creature without hands use potions?
Vathelokai 05-31-07, 01:14 AM	Question: can a creature without hands use potions? In the past we've ruled no; they need mage hand or something to manipulate the potion. It's debateable - there are some case by case exceptions (though most of them make some sense, like dragons and their lack of 'hands').
TheMagister 05-31-07, 01:18 AM	Question: can a creature without hands use potions? That's kind've a trick question: certainly a wyvern can take benefit from a potion, if it can get the liquid into its mouth, that is. Whether that involves someone feeding it to the wyvern or the wyvern taking a bite out of a steak with a potion hidden in it doesn't matter. The only thing you have to do is swallow the concoction after all...
templer10 05-31-07, 02:56 AM	question - can the free activity "Frigten Allies" work on a monster in a monster fight if there is 1 Strong monster and 1 weaker monster?
TheMagister 05-31-07, 03:02 AM	Wow! That's a thought, now isn't it?
McJarvis 05-31-07, 06:19 AM	question - can the free activity "Frigten Allies" work on a monster in a monster fight if there is 1 Strong monster and 1 weaker monster? No..free activities can't be used against monsters. [[At least that's what Cat always said]]
Hirumajoe 05-31-07, 08:18 AM	Assuming the Earth Elemental can pinpoint you, or least have a good guess because you're stuck in a 10' wide corridor, can an Earth Elemental with 15' reach attack with Total cover through the ground, never actually popping up using its Earth Glide ability? I'm trying to figure out if a non-burrowing/incorpreal PC is looking at an auto-loss to a Huge Earth Elemental in the sewer. Also, what bonuses does an Elemental get to hear while in the ground, since ground conducts sound better than air. (I.e. Incorpreal creatures gets +2 while in a solid object).
Vathelokai 05-31-07, 08:44 AM	My understanding is yes; they can attack from full cover. They take the 50% miss chance for not actually seeing you (assuming they find you; do they have tremor sense?). If you have literally no method to attack it (or your one method could not ever do enough dmg.) then it would be an autoloss. I've always given them the +2 for being inside an object; though the rules are a bit odd on the subject. My two cents anyway...
Macbrea 05-31-07, 08:48 AM	Greater Earth Elementals lack tremer sense. They do have Earth Mastery that allows them bonuses against people that are touching stone or earth.
hogarth 05-31-07, 08:48 AM	Reposted from FotW thread (since it might be of general interest). Well each week's pairings post is linked at the beginning of the battles thread and each fight is linked within that - so it is certainly easy to research [monster fights]. Just time consuming. Let us know the results :) I looked at monster fights from 27 Dec 2006 to 18 Apr 2007; there's nothing special about this window of time -- it's just the subset of fights I could look at before bedtime last night. Here is the raw data I gathered (a total of 40 monster fights in that period of time): Date W/L ECL Treasure Name Monster 14 Mar. L 3 N Petit Guepe 3 Quasits – surrender 3 Jan. L 4 N Matthis II Half-celestial unicorn 14 Feb. L 7 N Antalya 6-headed Pyrohydra – surrender 31 Jan. L 9 N Featylec Caller in Darkness 17 Jan. L 9 N Featylec Hellcat – surrender 18 Apr. L 3 Y Roulex Ogre 28 Mar. L 3 Y Caspian Wyrmling Brass Dragon 28 Mar. L 3 Y Kronos Air Mephit 14 Feb. L 5 Y Durin Werebear (TelinArtho) 21 Mar. L 5 Y Razorfang 3 Azers 21 Mar. L 6 Y Rubicanti Janni + 2 air elementals 18 Apr. L 6 Y Durin Ogre Barbarian 3 28 Mar. L 8 Y Valen Sky Stone Giant 21 Feb. L 9 Y Besthirah Half-orc cleric 7 + 3 half-orc fighter 4 (TelinArtho) 4 Apr. L 9 Y Denshi 3 Ettins 28 Mar. L 7 & 6 Y Kervan + Rubicanti Xill + Black Pudding (TelinArtho) 4 Apr. W 3 N Methos Lion 7 Mar. W 3 N Hajj 2 Vargouilles 27 Dec. W 3 N Gorgax Giant owl 17 Jan. W 3 N Ikhain 2 Hippogriffs – separate thread 7 Mar. W 4 N Gundmir 3 Skum 7 Feb. W 4 N Maya Redwine 3 Shocker Lizards – fight not properly linked 7 Mar. W 4 N Harbinger 2 Large Vipers 27 Dec. W 7 N Antalya Ravid + objects 11 Apr. W 7 N Malik Chaos Beast 4 Apr. W 7 N Battlesong Duet Elephant 18 Apr. W 8 N Jar-red 2 Megaraptors 11 Apr. W 8 N Ihdald Celestial Megaraptor 7 Feb. W 8 N M. Hood 2 Megaraptors 3 Jan. W 9 N Eraca 3 Half-fiend displacer beasts 18 Apr. W 9 N Valen Sky Phrenic Bulette 27 Dec. W 9 N Dronnar Half-fiend invisible stalker 7 Feb. W 9 N Zassl 5 Dire Boars 4 Apr. W 4 Y Qwogi Half-Giant Monk 1/PsyWar 2 18 Apr. W 4 Y Graashnak 2 Wyrmling White Dragons 24 Jan. W 6 Y Battlesong Duet Janni + 2 air elementals 21 Mar. W 7 Y Torel Bard 5 + Rogue 5 28 Feb. W 7 Y Izumi 4 Doppelgangers 21 Feb. W 8 Y M. Hood 3 Harpies 14 Feb. W 9 Y Loddick 4 Tiefling Wizards So for ECL 9 (the highest ECL for which fights were available), there were 5 wins and 4 losses -- just over 50%. But note that 4 out of 5 of the wins were against creatures with no equipment. One interesting thing I found: --> against monsters with no equipment: 17 wins, 5 losses (3 of the losses were surrenders) --> against monster with equipment: 7 wins, 11 losses The other interesting thing I found -- for monster fights pitlorded by TelinArtho, the record was 0 wins and 3 losses. Sheer coincidence, I imagine. :D
Yitzi 05-31-07, 10:54 AM	That's kind've a trick question: certainly a wyvern can take benefit from a potion, if it can get the liquid into its mouth, that is. Whether that involves someone feeding it to the wyvern or the wyvern taking a bite out of a steak with a potion hidden in it doesn't matter. The only thing you have to do is swallow the concoction after all... I'm trying to determine equipment for the manticore in Longshot's monster fight. So potions are apparently out, unless I can get it mage hand. How about rings?
MitzaVolchenko 05-31-07, 10:58 AM	I'm trying to determine equipment for the manticore in Longshot's monster fight. So potions are apparently out, unless I can get it mage hand. How about rings? Actually creatures lacking hands are allowed to drink potions by biting the bottles and breaking it in their mouths.
MitzaVolchenko 05-31-07, 11:00 AM	question - can the free activity "Frigten Allies" work on a monster in a monster fight if there is 1 Strong monster and 1 weaker monster? Skill packages only function in normal 1vs 1 gladiator only fights.
Yitzi 05-31-07, 11:06 AM	Actually creatures lacking hands are allowed to drink potions by biting the bottles and breaking it in their mouths. Wait, first I hear they can't, then they can, what is the final decision? Also, what's the story with rings?
Macbrea 05-31-07, 11:20 AM	If you read the RoTG article on animals 4 at here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070206a). You will see the link to the wild life article. It was determined that those slots are useable for our animals. Basicly, the slots we are using at the moment are: One skull cap or helm One pair of lenses or goggles One collar One saddle blanket or vest One saddle or jacket One belt or strap worn in front of or over the haunches One pectoral or harness worn over the chest or shoulders One pair foreleg bracers One pair of foreleg shoes or mitts -- hoofed creatures wear shoes and creatures with paws wear mitts Two rings -- creatures with toes wear rings on the toes and creatures with hooves wear "rings" just above fore hooves One pair of hind leg shoes or mitts -- hoofed creatures wear shoes and creatures with paws wear mitts They are able to bite bottles (1 hardness 1 hp) but unable to really open scrolls in any easy fashion. The somatics maneuvers were determined as using some other portion of the body as per the FAQ.
hogarth 05-31-07, 11:21 AM	Wait, first I hear they can't, then they can, what is the final decision? Also, what's the story with rings? There's no official ruling, so all you're going to get is individual opinions. Personally, my philosophy would be to give a PC the benefit of the doubt (so I'd let a PC manticore use potions) and to not give monsters the benefit of the doubt (so I wouldn't give an NPC manticore potions as equipment). But that's just my philosophy -- recently TelinArtho saw nothing wrong with equipping some cloakers with potions (which I thought was pretty absurd). I think rings would be O.K. for a manticore, though. Cats kind of have "fingers".
Salrantol 05-31-07, 12:17 PM	The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.So you can't have, say, resist energy (fire) and resist energy (acid) both up, correct?
McJarvis 05-31-07, 12:22 PM	So you can't have, say, resist energy (fire) and resist energy (acid) both up, correct? You can. What that section means is that if you cast resist fire, and then cast it again 3 rounds later, the effects wouldn't stack...but you would have the spell for the longer duration. Also, you still have two enchantments on you, so an area dispel would only remove one of them. Res(acid)+Res(fire) would still give you 10 res to fire+acid tho.
Hirumajoe 05-31-07, 01:18 PM	Ah, the classic anorexia trick to avoid your warhorse to be encumbered. Still remember when Cat tried to pull it with The Harvester, a hugely strong male Half-Giant clad of 70 lbs. or so clad in full plate, weight was purely RP based on the fact that he was supposed to be a skeletal creature, sure.... Where are the days of tall and impressive knights, and not all these frail horse jockeys? Actually, Kai Engel is 6'3" and 200lbs. A Fighter/Wizard, but still. And he's getting close to weighing a literal ton when he's enlarged. Better hope he doesn't grapple and move onto your flying mount or some such silliness at higher levels... :) Admittedly, he doesn't have a horse.
Usurpator 05-31-07, 02:31 PM	Hogarth, Thanks for all the research, much appreciated! What I would personally like as an alternative to monster fights is to have a list of characters instead of monsters where the Pitlord rolls on. These characters could be slightly updated version from the Gladius Graveyard or other retired builds. Of course gladiators would have complete access to their sheets, simulating a regular battle. It's a nice way to keep some old classic names alive, and I would find it more interesting and would result in less supremely 'swingy' battles.
Erithmu 05-31-07, 03:47 PM	Hogarth, Thanks for all the research, much appreciated! What I would personally like as an alternative to monster fights is to have a list of characters instead of monsters where the Pitlord rolls on. These characters could be slightly updated version from the Gladius Graveyard or other retired builds. Of course gladiators would have complete access to their sheets, simulating a regular battle. It's a nice way to keep some old classic names alive, and I would find it more interesting and would result in less supremely 'swingy' battles. Or Perhaps build up the Merc Roster and use those? Although they are 25 pt buy, but they could just have full access to their expendables ... Which brings up an odd point regarding Mercs: Do they have a 3FC? I know Maraxus has used Trillian in the early stages of Balrog, but do they get reimbursed for their spent gear? etc etc....
hogarth 05-31-07, 11:10 PM	Hogarth, Thanks for all the research, much appreciated! What I would personally like as an alternative to monster fights is to have a list of characters instead of monsters where the Pitlord rolls on. These characters could be slightly updated version from the Gladius Graveyard or other retired builds. Of course gladiators would have complete access to their sheets, simulating a regular battle. It's a nice way to keep some old classic names alive, and I would find it more interesting and would result in less supremely 'swingy' battles. I proposed a similar idea: a smaller list of monster with their own equipment similar to the mercenary list. All of them would be considered well-rounded enough that there would be no more checks for "autoloss" battles. I think the primary arguments against were two of Telin's favourites: (1) "I don't have a problem with the current system." (2) "It reduces the number of possibilities without adding much in return." YMMV.
Zevox 06-01-07, 12:07 AM	Looking for a little advice: My Psion, Istima, just leveled up in Sauro's campaign. Hes now level 10, and should be getting 2 new powers. But I'm not sure what to give him. I know I want Baleful Teleport, since its typeless damage, but between that and the two 5th level powers he already has (Power Resistance and True Seeing), I don't see any more 5th level powers from the standard psion list or the nomad list I definitely want. So I need to find something lower level, and I'm torn, because theres several that would be useful, but nothing sticking out at me. The one 5th-level power he might want is Shatter Mind Blank, since I know Mind Blank is a potent defensive power/spell later on. I'm kinda wary though, since it seems Dispel Psionics might be more efficient for doing away with that anyway. The one I'm leaning towards is Energy Retort. With all the hp and AC Istima has, getting in close and letting foes get struck by it might be a very good way to help whittle their hp down, and certainly its great counter to meleers (and Manyshooting archers :P) to begin with. Then theres Fly, which would be useful should he lose his mount. And of course it'd be a nice way to differentiate him from the general crowd of Psions, showing off what he gets as a Nomad. Next theres Time Hop, which is quite theme-appropriate for a Nomad (between that, Dimension Door, and Dimension Swap, I could literally say he can manipulate time and space :D ), and has plenty of potential uses, and all the more so on the campaign hes on now. Quite the neat utility power. Then theres Energy Wall, which is a bit weak, but bypasses SR and would last plenty long enough to be worth using now. Plus its a nice anti-archer power, since unattended arrows being shot through it would take damage and possibly be destroyed. Last theres a couple of Nomad-only powers, Dimensional Anchor and Dismissal. Both are rather situational, but potentially quite useful. So, anybody with any insights on those? Suggestions for powers I haven't considered perhaps? Zevox
Erithmu 06-01-07, 12:28 AM	I don't like energy retort for Istima as it retorts only on a successful hit, Now if you are going to go toe to toe and run vigor then go for it, but I think that your opponent will try to get out of range. I'm starting to like the dismissal line of spells for arena use as sometimes they will just auto win on certain critters, and they take care of big summons from the SM list. Also takes care of Yaurl ... ... Fly is good, but you take care of the pegasus pretty well. If you really want fly I might look at 6th level with overland flight and it's LONG duration. I was sizing up powers for Loddick with the opening of the higher level leagues, and you found the 2 5th level powers that I want to take. You might also look and see what items you want to craft and take the pre req powers.
Yitzi 06-01-07, 12:32 AM	The one I'm leaning towards is Energy Retort. With all the hp and AC Istima has, getting in close and letting foes get struck by it might be a very good way to help whittle their hp down, and certainly its great counter to meleers (and Manyshooting archers :P) to begin with. Not that good vs manyshooting archers-if they're manyshooting anyway they've got a move action to spare, and they may very well be able to use it to get out of close range. Even at ML 10, it's only 50'.
Zevox 06-01-07, 12:43 AM	I don't like energy retort for Istima as it retorts only on a successful hit, Now if you are going to go toe to toe and run vigor then go for it, but I think that your opponent will try to get out of range. Good point, but his high hp does make that less of a problem. I'm starting to like the dismissal line of spells for arena use as sometimes they will just auto win on certain critters, and they take care of big summons from the SM list. Also takes care of Yaurl ... ... Precisely why I'm considering it. Takes care of summoned foes, which can be particularly useful against Thaumaturges in the upper levels (I'm looking at you Kraegin), and would also take care of some leadership allies, make many monster fights at upper levels much easier, and of course if anyone else decides to give a Half-Celestial/Fiend the same handicap I gave Asran*, works there too. * I'm referring to the fact that I made him an extraplanar outsider for RP reasons. I'm actually shocked no one has tried to imprison him because of it yet. Figured if they did I could fight it by pointing out that the template only says that Half-Fiends are usually native, and that being extraplanar is only a disadvantage to him since it makes him vulnerable to the dismissal line of spells. Fly is good, but you take care of the pegasus pretty well. If you really want fly I might look at 6th level with overland flight and it's LONG duration. Eh, I'm kinda swamped on 6th level powers. Disintegrate and Temporal Acceleration are definite must-haves, and I'm debating over several others (Banishment if I don't take Dismissal, Fuse Flesh, Co-Opt Concentration, Contingency, and Breath of the Black Dragon). Besides, it only gives average manueverability, which doesn't allow hovering, and a mere 40' speed - I'd rather have Fly and manifest it in-battle for +20' and better manueverability with hovering. Decent point about the Pegasus though. Perhaps I could just keep a powerstone or two of fly about instead. I was sizing up powers for Loddick with the opening of the higher level leagues, and you found the 2 5th level powers that I want to take. Power Resistance and True Seeing, you mean? You might also look and see what items you want to craft and take the pre req powers. Already have. Theres not all that many Universal Items worth making outside of the skill ones, to be perfectly honest. I figure that most of the crafting Istima does with that feat beyond the Third Eye of Concentration will be custom anyway. Zevox
Zevox 06-01-07, 12:44 AM	Not that good vs manyshooting archers-if they're manyshooting anyway they've got a move action to spare, and they may very well be able to use it to get out of close range. Even at ML 10, it's only 50'. Manyshot requires you to be within 30' of your target. Zevox
TheMagister 06-01-07, 01:16 AM	Manyshot requires you to be within 30' of your target. Zevox And I HATE that! Anyways: how about Catapsi, shared with your psicrystal, and then teleport your psicrystal near to your opponent? It's situational, but potentially devastating...
Zevox 06-01-07, 01:21 AM	And I HATE that! Hey, at least it means you get PBS on every shot with it ;) . Anyways: how about Catapsi, shared with your psicrystal, and then teleport your psicrystal near to your opponent? It's situational, but potentially devastating... Nah, I stopped considering that power right after I read it. Way too situational, and as levels go on, much less useful than it is initially. Besides, its duration isn't instantaneous, so sharing it with my Psicrystal like that won't work. It would wear off as soon as the Psicrystal gets further than 5 feet away. Zevox
Usurpator 06-01-07, 03:17 AM	I proposed a similar idea: a smaller list of monster with their own equipment similar to the mercenary list. All of them would be considered well-rounded enough that there would be no more checks for "autoloss" battles. I think the primary arguments against were two of Telin's favourites: (1) "I don't have a problem with the current system." (2) "It reduces the number of possibilities without adding much in return." YMMV. 1. I don't have a problem with many things in my life, but that doesn't mean I refuse to change some things when I see my life can improved in some area. I feel I earn enough money, but that won't cause me to reject an offer for more. 2. Any list reduces the number of possibilities too. If you want a maximum number of possibilities just have a Pitlord hand-pick any EL X encounter from the sources. It adds much in return: - Better balanced fights - More interesting pre-fight tactics writing - Less burden on the Pitlord (since they don't have to choose equipment or build a templated monster) As a DM I believe in providing players with challenges specifically suited to the characters they are playing. Them making use of the abilities they favored/chose gives them the most fun. Most characters builds in CoCo are designed to combat fellow gladiators, giving them challenges they are designed to combat maximized fun. Gladiators that want to go out and fight monsters have plenty options to do so in Quest and Campaigns. It's not that we're losing monster fights when we drop the list. I don't think there is any need to force undesired fight types on to players. The monster list, to me, is simply a way to provide an opponent (and a fight) when there is no suitable opponent around. It goes by the premise that you rather have any fight than no fight at all after activating your character. For me personally that isn't true, I'd rather have no fight than a fight against a monster. Also, I saw that newcomer Aura_Blade got no less than two monster fights in his first three fights here of which at least one can be considered an auto-loss. If you come here to fight other characters, and you get that, I can imagine it would be a bit of a turn-off.
MitzaVolchenko 06-01-07, 11:20 AM	I agree with Usurpator...at the least where new folks are involved.
TelinArtho 06-01-07, 11:50 AM	1. I don't have a problem with many things in my life, but that doesn't mean I refuse to change some things when I see my life can improved in some area. I feel I earn enough money, but that won't cause me to reject an offer for more. 2. Any list reduces the number of possibilities too. If you want a maximum number of possibilities just have a Pitlord hand-pick any EL X encounter from the sources. It adds much in return: - Better balanced fights - More interesting pre-fight tactics writing - Less burden on the Pitlord (since they don't have to choose equipment or build a templated monster) As a DM I believe in providing players with challenges specifically suited to the characters they are playing. Them making use of the abilities they favored/chose gives them the most fun. Most characters builds in CoCo are designed to combat fellow gladiators, giving them challenges they are designed to combat maximized fun. Gladiators that want to go out and fight monsters have plenty options to do so in Quest and Campaigns. It's not that we're losing monster fights when we drop the list. I don't think there is any need to force undesired fight types on to players. The monster list, to me, is simply a way to provide an opponent (and a fight) when there is no suitable opponent around. It goes by the premise that you rather have any fight than no fight at all after activating your character. For me personally that isn't true, I'd rather have no fight than a fight against a monster. Also, I saw that newcomer Aura_Blade got no less than two monster fights in his first three fights here of which at least one can be considered an auto-loss. If you come here to fight other characters, and you get that, I can imagine it would be a bit of a turn-off. Since this is a rehash of a discussion that has already gone on, I figured I'd point out that most of the discussion appears to be around October of last year (Council III, starting around post 460 and continuing until around 482 when Sauro ambushes the conversation and turns it another way). Here's some snipets that I find particularly telling: 1) The treasure for a monster is generally much less than the wealth of an NPC of their ECL. Okay, dragons. But that comparison isn't otherwise fair. 2) Straight monsters use the standard ability array (11,11,11,10,10,10). That make a huge difference. 3) Pitlords are supposed to equip the monster before checking out the PC's sheet, and write tactics before the fight begins. That's the rule already; if people aren't following it, it's not the fault of the rules. 4) Most importantly: If you count up all the monster fights, you will see that the monster wins only around half the time. (We've checked this regularly; the only PCs that lose to monsters disproportionately more often are the ones who have great win ratios vs. PCs, and especially those who are designed exclusively to fight PCs and have no anti-monster contingencies.) This suggests that monster fights are fair as-is. I'm worried that the actual breakdown is more like: 20% - weak monster => very easy to win for the average fighter (e.g 2 human commoner zombies/1 drow fighter 2/1 wolf skeleton for ECL3) 60% - about right => 50% chance of winning 20% - strong monster => very difficult to win unless you have specialised tactics (e.g. 2 bat swarms/1 very young white dragon for ECL3) In that case, you still end up with a 50/50 ratio but 40% of the time it's about as much fun as flipping a coin. Heads=win, tails=lose. At any rate, my recommendation would be to strip out a few of the monsters at the higher and lower end of the power scale and maybe "recommend" separate fight threads for monster fights. YMMV. @hogarth: I agree, there are a lot of monster fights that are unfair one way or the other. Unfortunately, many of those are too hard for some characters and too easy for others (e.g. a pixie vs. an ECL 4 barbarian or an ECL 4 See Invis-packing wizard, or a swarm vs. someone with or without area attacks, or a hydra vs. a rogue or a wizards with Deep Slumber... hmm, funny how wizards have the advantage in all those cases). It's very difficult to balance for all PCs--there are very, very few that are way too easy or too hard for everyone. This is something I suggested over in the Tavern in regards to the Monster roll charts which received mostly good responses, although at least one convern over variety. I was wondering if it would be worth it create a "Beastiary of Gladius" thread. You do something like the following: Each week create a Monster of the Week thread (kinda like the fights of the week). Somone posts a certain number of monsters (2-4?) which are up for design that week picked directly off the monster charts, which haven't been done yet. People propose full monster sheets (you'd probably want a default monster sheet, similar to the character sheet available to help standardize this). At the end of the week you hold a vote if there are multiple versions proposed, with the Elders holding a veto option on any monster. You could also have a seperate weekly discussion thread, so that only posts and votes are in the primary thread. The winning monster(s) are then added to the Bestiary of Gladius thread (presumably by a CoCo account so that these could be edited later in case mistakes are found after the fact) and their posts are linked in the monster roll charts directly. Then, when a pitlord rolls a monster fight, they have a completely ready monster just by clicking on the link on the chart. Possibly even with default tactics and a short background. Also, monsters created by pitlords running monster fights that don't have a monster sheet yet could also be directly added, avoiding duplicate effort in the long run. Pros: Reduces Pitlord work for monster fights. Reduces Pitlord error in creating monsters for monster fights. Monster fights are more balanced between each other as the monsters don't vary from one incarnation to the next, possibly with better or worse options selected. Overall quality of monsters in monster fights improve, leading to harder fights. Allows people who might otherwise not get a chance to mess around with high level ideas to do so. Adds to the history of Gladius and lets people leave a mark (even if only in the form of Bob, the Troll were-Tyrannosaurus, a wandering outcast from the Northlands feared by his tribe for unnatural affliction). Cons: Reduces variety in monsters. Complete information on the monsters is available, leading to easier fights. Its an extra task that somebody needs to put effort into. (Selecting the monsters, counting votes, and then copy/pasting into the beastiary thread, and updating the links to said post, and correcting any errors found over time). Some additional suggestions made were make this optional to be used in fights and/or having multiple equipment sets or even multiple monster sheets with differently tuned versions of the same monster. Note that all of this conversation happened before the tables were no longer "randomized" in the numbers of opponents. That change got implemented around March of this year. Anyway - to put my own thoughts on the matter: 1. The original lists from the DMG were removed because they were very limited (only a few creatures per level, didn't have anything from the Psionic lists, etc). The few creatures weren't notable challenges and were often auto-wins for PCs. This meant that some characters were able to advance whole levels without an effective challenge. 2. The new lists have a full complement of creatures to choose from. 3. I am not opposed to having the lists "filled out" with equipment and spell selection as long as the lists are as comprehensive. Meaning - I don't want to see the current lists reduced, but I have no problem if "standard" sheets are drawn up for the creatures on the list. This task could be as simple as dredging through the existing monster fights and grabbing the stats of the creatures that have been done correctly (some have been done incorrectly over time - so those should probably be ignored). 4. I am not opposed to removing the "no auto-win" clause for PCs, as long as the pitlord is still required to run the fight for the credit and as long as the lists are still challenging in general.
templer10 06-01-07, 11:59 AM	Question - if i have to run 4 CR 3 monsters as an ECL 7 encounter- do they get each CR 3 worth of treasure (2,500 each = 10,000) or do i give all of them togheter ECL 7 worth of gear (7,200)? oh and do they all start in teh same starting location?
TelinArtho 06-01-07, 12:05 PM	This is explained in the monster fight section of the Rules - they get money individually (so 2500gp each, no single one able to spend more than 1250gp on a single object, etc). Usually, they start in the same starting location. In the rare cases where I've run multiple monsters (from multiple monster rolls - team fights, interleague, etc), I generally roll one for each group. I don't know that this is specified anywhere - but it probably should be...
templer10 06-01-07, 12:20 PM	i remmber a discussion on pricing of Masterwork large weapons and armor - was there a result? (.i.e does the MW part and the Str adjustment part of a composite longbow cost more?)
TelinArtho 06-01-07, 12:23 PM	The masterwork component is always the same - 300gp for weapons, 150gp for armor. This doesn't change whether the item is of a different size or material. So a large mithril chain shirt built for a non-humanoid (ie horse): (100gp [base armor price] + (1000-150) [Mithril less the [Ma] component])*4=950*4=3800 + 150gp [[Ma] component] = 3950gp.
Zevox 06-01-07, 12:54 PM	i remmber a discussion on pricing of Masterwork large weapons and armor - was there a result? (.i.e does the MW part and the Str adjustment part of a composite longbow cost more?) Masterwork - No, that is a constant cost that never changes. Str adjustment for a bow - our current ruling is that this is indeed multiplied. Zevox
Zevox 06-01-07, 12:57 PM	So anyone else want to chip in with some advice on Istima's power selection? I think I've narrowed it to three - Energy Retort, Time Hop, and Dismissal - but I'd like some more input from some of my fellow players around here before making a decision. They're all so tempting... Zevox
TelinArtho 06-01-07, 01:19 PM	I don't think Dismissal is worth it really. I mean - a power to oppose essentially one opponent. And Kraegin at that? Come on... (Don't take my post here as an indication of what to do... I am biased after all :) )
hogarth 06-01-07, 01:21 PM	So anyone else want to chip in with some advice on Istima's power selection? I think I've narrowed it to three - Energy Retort, Time Hop, and Dismissal - but I'd like some more input from some of my fellow players around here before making a decision. They're all so tempting... Personally, Kilpquabjeg is going to take Psionic Plane Shift as one of her 5th level powers. It's one of the few psionic save-or-die powers that works against just about any creature you can name (for instance, it's not "mind-affecting"). Plus (a) your psicrystal can deliver it for you and (b) you can use it against a target you can't see (since it has touch range). Psionic Plane Shift doesn't work against unwilling targets even though Plane Shift does! That sucks... I don't know why you would take Baleful Teleport when you have Crystal Shard already, but chacun a son gout.
Zevox 06-01-07, 01:32 PM	I don't think Dismissal is worth it really. I mean - a power to oppose essentially one opponent. And Kraegin at that? Come on... Kraegin's not exactly the only Thaumaturge we've ever seen - Anixx was one (and we never know when Iced will come back), and Tellish had one (never know when he may come back either), at the very least. I'm sure you're not the only one who will ever use the PrC. Plus like I said, it has other uses, including monster fights (how many monsters at upper levels are Outsiders or Elementals?), some Leadership allies, and even some PCs (its quite possible we'll see some true Outsider PCs with the upper leagues opening - I've even toyed with the idea of a Bralani Eladrin myself). Personally, Kilpquabjeg is going to take Psionic Plane Shift as one of her 5th level powers. It's one of the few psionic save-or-die powers that works against just about any creature you can name (for instance, it's not "mind-affecting"). Plus (a) your psicrystal can deliver it for you and (b) you can use it against a target you can't see (since it has touch range). Psionic Plane Shift doesn't work against unwilling targets even though Plane Shift does! That sucks... I don't know why you would take Baleful Teleport when you have Crystal Shard already, but chacun a son gout. Yup, you figured out why I'm not taking that first one. Wanted to (again, very theme-appropriate), but when I saw that, the only use it would have is getting him back if some wizard or cleric uses the spell on him. Not sure what the last means, but yes, I want Baleful Teleport even though I have Crystal Shard. Baleful Teleport is quite theme-appropriate for Istima, plus has the advantage over crystal shard of not requiring a touch attack (with Monk's Belts and odd races getting accessible at upper levels, those could become tough), plus gets +1/2 pp spent to overcome PR/SR, unlike Energy Bolt (which has been his primary damage-dealer for the past five levels). No, its no the most efficient damaging power out there, but I want Istima to have a fair variety of those, so one or two appropriate defenses won't shut him down outright. Zevox
Zevox 06-01-07, 02:55 PM	You know, I think I'm gonna go with Time Hop for Istima's new power. The more I look at that thing and think about its potential uses, the more I want to have it. The others are nice, but that one is just too versatile to pass up. Zevox
templer10 06-01-07, 06:41 PM	was there a decision on how many charges per use on staffs is the minimum? Since i see a staff of call lightening (2/use) - CL 8, in my future (at ECL 8). something like that when iam ECL 8 is 5 credits right?
Zevox 06-01-07, 07:02 PM	Custom Staffs are 15 credits (you can find credit prices like that in the second post of the Black Market thread). Theres no minimum charges per use (though of course you logically can't go below 1), but there is a maximum (5). And I'm pretty sure we require 2 spells per staff minimum. Zevox
Zevox 06-01-07, 11:29 PM	...so Vath, when do I get my 2 credits? :king: Zevox
NiQil 06-01-07, 11:42 PM	...so Vath, when do I get my 2 credits? :king: Zevox A week from never :P
NiQil 06-01-07, 11:51 PM	Alright...so I am having brainblock and for the life of me cannot find the answer in the SRD... are wands/staffs subject to arcane spell failure like scrolls are?
Zevox 06-02-07, 12:17 AM	Alright...so I am having brainblock and for the life of me cannot find the answer in the SRD... are wands/staffs subject to arcane spell failure like scrolls are? Of course not. Both use the spell trigger activation method, which means just a command word. No concentration, no somatic components, no nothing. Zevox
templer10 06-02-07, 03:09 AM	Of course not. Both use the spell trigger activation method, which means just a command word. No concentration, no somatic components, no nothing. Zevox no aoa also and can be used in grapple without check.
templer10 06-02-07, 09:51 AM	NM
Rauul 06-02-07, 01:14 PM	Guild quests in or out of cycle?? edit=> i mean guild miniquests to join a guild..
Zevox 06-02-07, 01:42 PM	Guild quests in or out of cycle?? edit=> i mean guild miniquests to join a guild.. All quests (mini or otherwise) are in-cycle now. Zevox
Rauul 06-02-07, 02:09 PM	All quests (mini or otherwise) are in-cycle now. Zevox thought so, just wanted to verify.. thanks
stimpydoda 06-02-07, 05:10 PM	"Esau Sampson" Thanks
MitzaVolchenko 06-02-07, 06:20 PM	"Esau Sampson" Thanks Welcome to CoCo! You can delete anything on the character sheet that doesn't apply, and you should note which weapon is which, though the names are nice :) I didn't check your numbers, but I am sure someone here will and report back. When you are ready, be sure you PM Pitlords to add you to the roster.
Vathelokai 06-03-07, 01:44 AM	...so Vath, when do I get my 2 credits? :king: Zevox :confused: Seems I don't know how to read a Calender. It will be in this comming pairings @Mitz: got your PM - will add tomorrow.
Vathelokai 06-03-07, 01:52 AM	"Esau Sampson" Thanks Welcome to the fray. Looks like a pretty strong melee build. No problems I see. Equipment could use some tweeks... You'll need more than 20 arrows. It doesn't happen a lot, but some times there are archer shoot offs where both sides need 20s to hit. Mounted archers can be tough without your own mount or 100 arrows. Sunrods are good quest items, but they won't do you much in an arena. To use powerstones you need a point in Psicraft. It's cross class for the Psiwars, but picking up a few powerstones is definitely worth it. Things like offensive precience, prevenom, and augmented vigor stones can swing a fight.
NiQil 06-03-07, 01:57 AM	Alright...so since I have been out of the expendable loop for a *long, long time.... ...if I wanted to buy a CL 1 scroll of <insert spell name not on the scroll lists>, are there credits involved?
Zevox 06-03-07, 02:08 AM	Alright...so since I have been out of the expendable loop for a *long, long time.... ...if I wanted to buy a CL 1 scroll of <insert spell name not on the scroll lists>, are there credits involved? No - never has been a credit cost for that, and the recent ruling removed credit costs for the few items that were limited by tables before. Though given the size of the scroll table, I'd be shocked if you could find a 1st level spell not on the list (except maybe Corrupt Weapon, given its a Blackguard spell rather than a PHB one). Zevox
templer10 06-03-07, 03:08 AM	Alright...so since I have been out of the expendable loop for a *long, long time.... ...if I wanted to buy a CL 1 scroll of <insert spell name not on the scroll lists>, are there credits involved? Niqil - YOU! are using expendbles? consider me SHOCKED:eek:
Rauul 06-03-07, 03:46 AM	Looking for a QuestLord for For Corrupter... to gain 3 yeth hounds corpses.. ECL 8 Pm me if your want this.. or just take a random one in pairings :)
NiQil 06-03-07, 03:47 AM	Niqil - YOU! are using expendbles? consider me SHOCKED:eek: Heh....as would I. I tinkered with it...but with the exception of Juggernaut, where potions of mage armor are clearly more cost-effective than bracers of armor for the same armor bonus, I doubt it will happen. I was toying with an assassin build that had magic-domain cleric levels to be able to use scrolls of color spray and true strike to set up guaranteed sneak attacks anytime the color spray was successful, but even there I found that wands would work better. Still...it doesn't hurt to keep my options open. But generally speaking I find that if there is a spell/power that I am going to want to use on a consistant basis, then a wand/dorje is better. And keeping the library of scrolls for the 'just in case' scenerio's has never made much sense to me.
Abyssal Stalker 06-03-07, 03:56 AM	Looking for a QuestLord for For Corrupter... to gain 3 yeth hounds corpses.. ECL 8 Pm me if your want this.. or just take a random one in pairings :) I can take it. Sign me in.
Rauul 06-03-07, 05:51 AM	I can take it. Sign me in. Signed You up :) next question.. with joining a guild and leveling, and getting +3 total to attract followers.. Corrupter gets 6 level 1 followers.. Does he have to do a Quest for these.. or do they just show up.. (not useful till he gets circle magic but still)
Khaim 06-03-07, 08:30 AM	To use powerstones you need a point in Psicraft. It's cross class for the Psiwars, but picking up a few powerstones is definitely worth it. Things like offensive precience, prevenom, and augmented vigor stones can swing a fight. Augmented Vigor is so much better than potions of CLW... You should spend two skill points just for that. And yes, you will need healing.
Usurpator 06-03-07, 08:33 AM	1. The original lists from the DMG were removed because they were very limited (only a few creatures per level, didn't have anything from the Psionic lists, etc). The few creatures weren't notable challenges and were often auto-wins for PCs. This meant that some characters were able to advance whole levels without an effective challenge. 2. The new lists have a full complement of creatures to choose from. 3. I am not opposed to having the lists "filled out" with equipment and spell selection as long as the lists are as comprehensive. Meaning - I don't want to see the current lists reduced, but I have no problem if "standard" sheets are drawn up for the creatures on the list. This task could be as simple as dredging through the existing monster fights and grabbing the stats of the creatures that have been done correctly (some have been done incorrectly over time - so those should probably be ignored). 4. I am not opposed to removing the "no auto-win" clause for PCs, as long as the pitlord is still required to run the fight for the credit and as long as the lists are still challenging in general. Telin, I can argue with you about this and all the reasons. I feel the format is still unfair. We could have a die rolling results, 1-3, PC wins, 4-6, monster wins, and then claim it is fair because there are 50% wins on either side. It all depends on your definition of fairness. What I want to talk about is the purpose of monster fights and fun, not fairness. I don't have fun winning easy monster fights, I don't have fun losing hard monster fights. I like battling unknown threats, that's a lot of my fun in D&D comes from, but there I have the ability to adapt to the situation, gather information and make us of it to turn the fight around. Here there are a lot of unknowns, and no way to adapt. Generally, I don't make specialist characters. I don't really like such characters myself, because they have just one primary tactic, and basically try to repeat that tactic every time, requiring a cut'n'paste of tactics each time. Anticipating known threats and adapting to unknown threats, that what I like. I can't do either with a monster fight. I never liked the old list, there were auto-wins and auto-losses there too. At least I knew exactly what I was facing, and could have some fun in write tactics. But my biggest argument is that monster fights have no place in the CoCo *other than* providing an opponent from someone who doesn't want his character to sit out a week when there are no opponents available. The CoCo arena is about fighting other gladiators. This monster fight just robbed me of an interesting fight. If I had won, it had robbed me of even more interesting fights (since my PC would level quicker). It's the same when my opponent just surrenders, or I got a victory due to a technicality. Its not about the goal with me, it's about the journey.
templer10 06-03-07, 08:48 AM	Telin, I can argue with you about this and all the reasons. I feel the format is still unfair. We could have a die rolling results, 1-3, PC wins, 4-6, monster wins, and then claim it is fair because there are 50% wins on either side. It all depends on your definition of fairness. What I want to talk about is the purpose of monster fights and fun, not fairness. I don't have fun winning easy monster fights, I don't have fun losing hard monster fights. I like battling unknown threats, that's a lot of my fun in D&D comes from, but there I have the ability to adapt to the situation, gather information and make us of it to turn the fight around. Here there are a lot of unknowns, and no way to adapt. Generally, I don't make specialist characters. I don't really like such characters myself, because they have just one primary tactic, and basically try to repeat that tactic every time, requiring a cut'n'paste of tactics each time. Anticipating known threats and adapting to unknown threats, that what I like. I can't do either with a monster fight. I never liked the old list, there were auto-wins and auto-losses there too. At least I knew exactly what I was facing, and could have some fun in write tactics. But my biggest argument is that monster fights have no place in the CoCo *other than* providing an opponent from someone who doesn't want his character to sit out a week when there are no opponents available. The CoCo arena is about fighting other gladiators. This monster fight just robbed me of an interesting fight. If I had won, it had robbed me of even more interesting fights (since my PC would level quicker). It's the same when my opponent just surrenders, or I got a victory due to a technicality. Its not about the goal with me, it's about the journey. we could have monster fights done in a seperate thread similar to miniquests - it doesnt take Longer then a regular fight really - instead of a concetrated few hours for the pitlord it's spread around the week - i can honestly say that i had a miniquest this week that if done as a regular monster fight i would have lost without question since i had no knowladge at all relevent and no way to know what i was facing - i understood what iam facing as areuslt of seeing the abilities used - and that led to some pnice improvisations and the eventual win.
Yitzi 06-03-07, 08:49 AM	Now that sounds fair. Only thing is, a pitlord who didn't sign up for a miniquest should be able to opt out of the monster fight then.
Usurpator 06-03-07, 08:58 AM	we could have monster fights done in a seperate thread similar to miniquests - it doesnt take Longer then a regular fight really - instead of a concetrated few hours for the pitlord it's spread around the week - i can honestly say that i had a miniquest this week that if done as a regular monster fight i would have lost without question since i had no knowladge at all relevent and no way to know what i was facing - i understood what iam facing as areuslt of seeing the abilities used - and that led to some pnice improvisations and the eventual win. While that would certainly be better, I'd still prefer to drop them altogether or give a player the option to avoid them. I don't often have time for doing miniquests, since you and the Pitlord need lot's of small blocks of time during the week for this. And if I dearly desire my character to fight unknown monsters, I can do that just fine at home by myself really. Given the tactics and knowledge of TelinArtho, I doubt if I had run the fight, it would have turned out much differently.
TelinArtho 06-03-07, 10:41 AM	Telin, I can argue with you about this and all the reasons. I feel the format is still unfair. We could have a die rolling results, 1-3, PC wins, 4-6, monster wins, and then claim it is fair because there are 50% wins on either side. It all depends on your definition of fairness. What I want to talk about is the purpose of monster fights and fun, not fairness. I don't have fun winning easy monster fights, I don't have fun losing hard monster fights. I like battling unknown threats, that's a lot of my fun in D&D comes from, but there I have the ability to adapt to the situation, gather information and make us of it to turn the fight around. Here there are a lot of unknowns, and no way to adapt. Generally, I don't make specialist characters. I don't really like such characters myself, because they have just one primary tactic, and basically try to repeat that tactic every time, requiring a cut'n'paste of tactics each time. Anticipating known threats and adapting to unknown threats, that what I like. I can't do either with a monster fight. I never liked the old list, there were auto-wins and auto-losses there too. At least I knew exactly what I was facing, and could have some fun in write tactics. But my biggest argument is that monster fights have no place in the CoCo *other than* providing an opponent from someone who doesn't want his character to sit out a week when there are no opponents available. The CoCo arena is about fighting other gladiators. This monster fight just robbed me of an interesting fight. If I had won, it had robbed me of even more interesting fights (since my PC would level quicker). It's the same when my opponent just surrenders, or I got a victory due to a technicality. Its not about the goal with me, it's about the journey. So how exactly do you propose to change monster fights and still make them a reasonable challenge "most" of the time? How can you determine what is going to be "fun" for most of the community? I'll tell you right now that I happen to disagree with you. I feel that for the most part, they provide an interesting other aspect for a challenge in the CoCo. In that respect, yes - I feel they are fun. They provide a variety that I am happy with - and this is why I use the tables even in my quests and miniquests.
Zevox 06-03-07, 12:43 PM	next question.. with joining a guild and leveling, and getting +3 total to attract followers.. Corrupter gets 6 level 1 followers.. Does he have to do a Quest for these.. or do they just show up.. (not useful till he gets circle magic but still) Our rules presently don't address this, save in that they definitely will require a quest, like any non-class ally sans Psicrystals. My own opinion is that the quest that gets you your leadership cohort should also qualify you for the followers, so no new quest is needed. Zevox
Salrantol 06-03-07, 02:32 PM	I think the most difficult possible option is to have them be another reward of your corpse quest you're going on next week.
Zevox 06-03-07, 02:45 PM	I think the most difficult possible option is to have them be another reward of your corpse quest you're going on next week. Wouldn't be an option. You can never have more than 1 goal for a quest/miniquest (RP-only goals aside). Zevox
hogarth 06-03-07, 03:00 PM	So how exactly do you propose to change monster fights and still make them a reasonable challenge "most" of the time? How can you determine what is going to be "fun" for most of the community? I'll tell you right now that I happen to disagree with you. I feel that for the most part, they provide an interesting other aspect for a challenge in the CoCo. In that respect, yes - I feel they are fun. They provide a variety that I am happy with - and this is why I use the tables even in my quests and miniquests. Usurpator's latest suggestion is to make monster fights optional. How would that impair your ability to have fun in the slightest, Telin?
NiQil 06-03-07, 03:56 PM	Usurpator's latest suggestion is to make monster fights optional. How would that impair your ability to have fun in the slightest, Telin? The problem with this idea is that it creates much more work for everyone involved. After pairings are rolled and a monster fight is assigned, who checks with the player to see if they want to participate or not? If the player does not want to participate, then this creates more work for pitlords by having to take the battle out and redo the credits for the player and pitlord involved. What happens when the pitlord is ready to run the fight, but the player chooses not to fight? Does the pitlord just lose out on that credit through no fault of his own? By the same token, what if the player wants to go on with the fight, but the pitlord doesn't? Does the pitlord get to opt out like the player? If so, what happens then? What if there are a shortage of pitlords and no one else wants to run it? The option Usurpator has presented has too many variables and creates too much extra work to really be viable. I also happen to think that when a PC is created, it should be able to handle anything that is thrown at it. If it can't, then that is a design limitation, not the fault of the monster. Obviously that won't always be the case...but that is what good tactics are for.
Usurpator 06-03-07, 04:03 PM	So how exactly do you propose to change monster fights and still make them a reasonable challenge "most" of the time? How can you determine what is going to be "fun" for most of the community? I'll tell you right now that I happen to disagree with you. I feel that for the most part, they provide an interesting other aspect for a challenge in the CoCo. In that respect, yes - I feel they are fun. They provide a variety that I am happy with - and this is why I use the tables even in my quests and miniquests. First of all, I apologize that I didn't thank you for the fight. Thanks for running it. It got kinda lost in the heat of the moment. I would love for a Pitlords to use the table in quest and miniquests, as long as they don't *have* to, It would be a choice then, an option, not a restriction (to quote the 3e principle) for both me and the Pitlord. As I said, I though monster fights were designed as 'filler' fights so that you gladiator didn't have to sit out when you wanted a fight. If people prefer to sit out rather than take a monster fight, why not offer that as an option? I don't have *the* answer for changing the monster fights, I can only put forward that I don't find them much fun, and I have also tried to explain what aspects I don't find fun. That doesn't mean that monster fights must be changed. I just like those who enjoy the monster fight setup read the point of view of someone who doesn't like them and ask themselves if it really is an essential element of the CoCo that should be forced upon those who don't like it.
Usurpator 06-03-07, 04:17 PM	The problem with this idea is that it creates much more work for everyone involved. You mean, more work than actually running the monster fight? I think not. For a Pitlord checking this is hardly more work than rolling the monster, prepping the fight and then running it. NiQil, if you have other reasons not to want to change it to optional, please say so, but it is rather obvious that it *reduces* the amount of work, not increases it. Obviously, a player still loses a credit if he has more than two characters active and pulling his character out of a monster fight. You could even give the Pitlord a credit as well if you want to change absolutely nothing to the administrative matters. By the same token, what if the player wants to go on with the fight, but the pitlord doesn't? Does the pitlord get to opt out like the player? If so, what happens then? What if there are a shortage of pitlords and no one else wants to run it? NiQil, I really don't understand this. Obviously, if a Pitlord doesn't want a fight, he does the same every Pitlord does who doesn't want a fight for whatever reason (time constraints, unfamiliarity with psionic rules, hates FFA, you name it), he announces he will pull from the fight and is searching for a replacement. You are here long enough to remember that there used to be Pitlords that specifically requested to do monster fights, rather than the other way around. The option Usurpator has presented has too many variables and creates too much extra work to really be viable. Really NiQil, I respect your opinions, but you are talking out of your ass now, seriously. To many variables? Come on. If you have other issues, come out and say so, but don't mention nonsense arguments and come out with nonsense conclusions. If anything it's clear that is less work than all the work that has gone and is still going into monster fights. I also happen to think that when a PC is created, it should be able to handle anything that is thrown at it. If it can't, then that is a design limitation, not the fault of the monster. Obviously that won't always be the case...but that is what good tactics are for. Well, then stop complaining about the horses and expendables. ;) But kidding aside, my PCs are (more than most other PCs, and Kitaya most of all) *especially created to handle anything thrown at them*. But without me knowing what is thrown at me, and without any influence at all over the fight, I simply cannot offer a tactic for all possible permutations of opponents, powers and magic items in my tactic description. I wrote two pages full of analysis and contingencies in a fight that I could have won *easily* if I could either run Kitaya myself or see the items and powers of Kitaya's opponent before the fight and had a history of fights to go with it.
NiQil 06-03-07, 04:59 PM	Well, then stop complaining about the horses and expendables. ;) But kidding aside, my PCs are (more than most other PCs, and Kitaya most of all) *especially created to handle anything thrown at them*. But without me knowing what is thrown at me, and without any influence at all over the fight, I simply cannot offer a tactic for all possible permutations of opponents, powers and magic items in my tactic description. I wrote two pages full of analysis and contingencies in a fight that I could have won *easily* if I could either run Kitaya myself or see the items and powers of Kitaya's opponent before the fight and had a history of fights to go with it. I'm not going to dignify the rest of that with a response. But I will respond to this, with a simple statement. That's what Knowledges are for. Every character has the option to spend skill points in them. If you are really concerned about being able to prepare for a monster fight, there is your answer. As I stated to you in PM, I personally dislike monster fights only because of the way I run my characters...I don't prepare them for monster, more often than not. But I have run the numbers, and they have proven to be fair.
Usurpator 06-03-07, 05:22 PM	Well, everyone else seems to be using them just fine since the 3FC was instituted. You haven't been around for awhile, so you haven't really functioned under it all that much, but it does require some alteration in your thinking and they way you approach things from how you may have done it in the past. In any case, this isn't the place for a discussion. Please move it to the Tavern. Just because everyone is using an odd rule just fine, doesn't make it any less odd. Everyone was using the diplomacy ally rules just fine too, that's not a reason to point out any failures and try to make it better.
templer10 06-03-07, 05:26 PM	question - if someone casted invisibility and shared with familiar- if the familiar attacked - does it break the invisibility for the wizard also?
Usurpator 06-03-07, 05:26 PM	I'm not going to dignify the rest of that with a response. But I will respond to this, with a simple statement. Well, to claim that something requires more time and is more complicated when it seems to be the reverse when you look at it, and then dismissing my request with that as your primary argument does require some kind of support rather than you just saying it is so, don't you think? I'll be happy to do research how much time is spent (by all involved) if you completely skip a monster fight or actually run one if you are serious about your argument. I just couldn't image you were serious.
Salrantol 06-03-07, 05:27 PM	I would love for a Pitlords to use the table in quest and miniquests, as long as they don't *have* to, It would be a choice then, an option, not a restriction (to quote the 3e principle) for both me and the Pitlord.This is certainly doable, I did it for both of my miniquests I ran this week. Of course, I think both of the people who went on my miniquests hated me for it. Both had brutal fights--one almost an auto-loss, one lost an ally in their Fight 1 of a cycle--but both won.
templer10 06-03-07, 05:31 PM	This is certainly doable, I did it for both of my miniquests I ran this week. Of course, I think both of the people who went on my miniquests hated me for it. Both had brutal fights--one almost an auto-loss, one lost an ally in their Fight 1 of a cycle--but both won. i dont hate you lol - but any "normal" druid would have 0 chance to win that fight - luckly iam 1 of those multiple energy type persons on Most usefull spells (now with subduall also for fun).
templer10 06-03-07, 05:46 PM	question - if someone casted invisibility and shared with familiar- if the familiar attacked - does it break the invisibility for the wizard also? Bump
Usurpator 06-03-07, 06:03 PM	Bump No, if you ask me. But I prefer people wiser in the FAQ then myself to answer. I've always found it easiests to treat a spell as a special copy of the original spell, one that fades when the familiar gets beyond 5 ft.
templer10 06-03-07, 06:07 PM	No, if you ask me. But I prefer people wiser in the FAQ then myself to answer. I've always found it easiests to treat a spell as a special copy of the original spell, one that fades when the familiar gets beyond 5 ft. yes but it didnt fade becuase of that it ended for the familiar becuase he attacked. to be exact the familiar was chaneling ghoul touch at the time, it attacked (missed) doit it count as if the wizard attacked?
Usurpator 06-03-07, 06:18 PM	yes but it didnt fade becuase of that it ended for the familiar becuase he attacked. The familiars copy is exactly like a spell cast separately on the familiar, *except* for the fact that it fades beyond 5 ft. In other words, the wizard's spell still works, only the familiars copy is gone. But as I said, my recent FAQ/rules of the game knowledge is out of date, since they used Skip's weird rules before but apparently it was overturned some months ago.
Zevox 06-03-07, 06:19 PM	question - if someone casted invisibility and shared with familiar- if the familiar attacked - does it break the invisibility for the wizard also? No, I would think. The familiar's spell is separate - after all, the caster doesn't lose his copy of a spell that the familiar loses by moving more than 5' away. Zevox
Yitzi 06-03-07, 10:40 PM	Question: does an offensive action that does not require an attack roll (e.g. letting off a fireball, making a grapple check) st off energy retort?
hogarth 06-03-07, 10:49 PM	The problem with this idea is that it creates much more work for everyone involved. Not running a fight is more work than running a fight? Welcome to the Bizarro World! ;)
Rauul 06-03-07, 10:51 PM	Our rules presently don't address this, save in that they definitely will require a quest, like any non-class ally sans Psicrystals. My own opinion is that the quest that gets you your leadership cohort should also qualify you for the followers, so no new quest is needed. Zevox So i did the Quest for My Cohort (first quest), in the next miniquest (next week to get me Flying mutts for undead) can that Also be used for the Followers Or should i make it a full quest and spend the 3 credits?... or do i have to wait a level to get the 6 little peons to worship my necromantic ability.. all level 1 wizards with a Tattoo focus (to use with Circle magic in 4 levels).. Not that it really matters.. as i have 4 levels before they are useful to me other than to scout and use in guild rp...
NiQil 06-03-07, 10:52 PM	Question: does an offensive action that does not require an attack roll (e.g. letting off a fireball, making a grapple check) st off energy retort? The power defines what an attack is for the purposes of interaction with this power: The first successful attack made against you in each round during the power’s duration prompts a response from the field with out any effort on your part. The attack may be physical, the effect of a power, or the effect of a spell (including spell-like, supernatural, and extraordinary abilities). A grapple does require an attack roll to initiate, but if it is already going when the power goes up, I am not sure if it would. Fireball, on the other hand, clearly would, as defined above.
NiQil 06-03-07, 10:57 PM	Not running a fight is more work than running a fight? Welcome to the Bizarro World! ;) Now that both you and Usurpator have completely taken that line out of context, let me clarify it. When I say more work, I am saying that there is more work involved in determining a proper pairing than would normally be. Everything I mentioned would have to be done before a fight could ever be run...assuming that one was run. All of that takes time that our pairings, tactics and fight schedule don't always allow for. And on a completely unrelated tangent, I find it somewhat disheartening that as soon as someone related an opinion that disagreed with others on this topic, inflammatory comments and baiting were immediately used to discredit that opinion. I thought better than that of people here. In any event, that's all the more I have to say on the subject.
hogarth 06-03-07, 11:43 PM	Now that both you and Usurpator have completely taken that line out of context, let me clarify it. When I say more work, I am saying that there is more work involved in determining a proper pairing than would normally be. Everything I mentioned would have to be done before a fight could ever be run...assuming that one was run. All of that takes time that our pairings, tactics and fight schedule don't always allow for. I still don't see it. Instead of: Monster fight is paired. Pitlord rolls monster. Player sends tactics. Pitlord runs fight. It would be: Monster fight is paired. Pitlord rolls monster. Player declines monster fight. PM sent to Pitlords account declining monster fight. It really doesn't sound that complicated to me, but YMMV.
TelinArtho 06-04-07, 01:23 AM	I still don't see it. Instead of: Monster fight is paired. Pitlord rolls monster. Player sends tactics. Pitlord runs fight. It would be: Monster fight is paired. Pitlord rolls monster. Player declines monster fight. PM sent to Pitlords account declining monster fight. It really doesn't sound that complicated to me, but YMMV. Not quite. It would be more similar to this: 1. Monster Fight is paired 2. Player declares whether he accepts a monster fight 3. Pitlord rolls monster if fight is accepted 4. Ptlord PMs Pitlords account if fight is not accepted. 5. Pitlords account modifies the pairings posts, credits for a fight that never happened. Since monster fights do affect your Power rating and that power rating has a "consequence" tied to it (to more or less effect depending on the character), I don't think that people should be allowed to opt out of monster fights. To respond to Usurpator's request in the blackmarket - it probably should not be allowed, although the character could be reset in terms of record at the same cost to recreate the character. To do more than this - I think should require an elder vote - because this is opening up a door that could be an issue to deal with.
Yitzi 06-04-07, 01:38 AM	Fireball, on the other hand, clearly would, as defined above. Would it? If "attack" means only something that uses an attack roll, than "from a spell" might mean like scorching ray. In any case, I need an official decision for the fight I'm running (unless it's unclear enough that it's up to me).
Zevox 06-04-07, 01:44 AM	So i did the Quest for My Cohort (first quest), in the next miniquest (next week to get me Flying mutts for undead) can that Also be used for the Followers Or should i make it a full quest and spend the 3 credits?... or do i have to wait a level to get the 6 little peons to worship my necromantic ability.. all level 1 wizards with a Tattoo focus (to use with Circle magic in 4 levels).. Not that it really matters.. as i have 4 levels before they are useful to me other than to scout and use in guild rp... 1) No, you cannot have your next miniquest count for both the undead and leadership followers. You can never have more than one goal per quest/miniquest. 2) No, switching it to a full quest would not make that legal. See above. 3) For the last, you may, you may not. I'd take the issue to the Court if I were you - our rules do not address how to obtain leadership followers at present. I would personally make the quest for the cohort qualify you for them as well, but thats at present just an opinion. Zevox
Rauul 06-04-07, 02:27 AM	1) No, you cannot have your next miniquest count for both the undead and leadership followers. You can never have more than one goal per quest/miniquest. 2) No, switching it to a full quest would not make that legal. See above. 3) For the last, you may, you may not. I'd take the issue to the Court if I were you - our rules do not address how to obtain leadership followers at present. I would personally make the quest for the cohort qualify you for them as well, but thats at present just an opinion. Zevox Ok so will Just stick with the MiniQuest for the yeth mutts
Rauul 06-04-07, 02:38 AM	To miniquest to join a guild costs 2 charater activations.. dang i need to read the rules more.. guess Shadow don't play next week.... Didn't realize that... been loosing 1 credit a week now for every miniquest.. then the holiday... down to only 1 credit (last week 2 late, 1 on time and 1 quest) O-well to me Quests and minquests are more fun to Run/playin than Pitlording..
NiQil 06-04-07, 02:47 AM	Would it? If "attack" means only something that uses an attack roll, than "from a spell" might mean like scorching ray. In any case, I need an official decision for the fight I'm running (unless it's unclear enough that it's up to me). Keep in mind that the power description differently from the way a normal attack is defined. Normally, you would be correct....an attack requires an attack roll. In this case, however, it is defining for itself what an attack is as it relates to this spell specifically. It specifically mentions the effect of a spell as something that qualifies. If it was using the normal definition of an attack (i.e. requiring an attack roll), it would have no need to specifically mention spell effects. Of course, that's just my opinion. I could just be talking out of my ass again.
Usurpator 06-04-07, 02:57 AM	Now that both you and Usurpator have completely taken that line out of context, let me clarify it. When I say more work, I am saying that there is more work involved in determining a proper pairing than would normally be. Everything I mentioned would have to be done before a fight could ever be run...assuming that one was run. All of that takes time that our pairings, tactics and fight schedule don't always allow for. And on a completely unrelated tangent, I find it somewhat disheartening that as soon as someone related an opinion that disagreed with others on this topic, inflammatory comments and baiting were immediately used to discredit that opinion. I thought better than that of people here. In any event, that's all the more I have to say on the subject. NiQil, I apologize for the tone of my comments. I was just completely baffled by your definitive tone, as you seemed to dismiss the option out of hand without actually seriously paying attention to the idea and giving a decent argument. I've sort of grown to dislike that kind of tone because it used to be Cat's way of shooting down ideas. So, as it stands, you think my idea is: 1. Seriously less work after the pairings (several hours worth less) 2. Seriously more work before the pairings (several minutes work more?) Let's analyze argument 2: - Pairings are made by pairer: no extra work - Monster fight is posted on board: no extra work - Pitlord checks player sheet and sees 'no monster fights plz': 3 secs. extra work - A. Pitlord gets a credit for the fight despite it being cancelled. Pitlord informs MWB/pairer of fight being cancelled. 20 secs. less work for MWB (no power ratings adjustment, no checking if the fight is finished yet, no checking for level change) - B. Pitlord doesn't get a credit for the cancelled fight: Pitlord informs MWB of cancellation. No time difference. (20 secs gained for reasons above, 20 secs lost due to credit adjustments) All of this 'seriously more work' is easily circumvented by putting 'no monster fights', or 'NMF' in the title line. A very easy solution, requires 3 secs. of extra work by the player, and 3 secs. of extra work by the pairer. And saves hours of work by both player and Pitlord. So, if you are really worried about the amount of work, I'd say you should support the idea.
Usurpator 06-04-07, 03:06 AM	Since monster fights do affect your Power rating and that power rating has a "consequence" tied to it (to more or less effect depending on the character), I don't think that people should be allowed to opt out of monster fights. Monster fights have other consequences too. This is another weird argument Telin. Just because something has consequences does not mean you can't allow the option. Just imagine if your characters were forced to go on a quest or campaign and I would say: 'well, a Quest of campaign has consequences for you, so you can't back out of one". I restate, monster fights were created to give a gladiator that *didn't want to sit out* and option to fight. There were never meant to be a nasty forced variant of MQ's played as a Pitlord only battle for gladiators that are fine with sitting out. In the quest for 'balance', that is unfortunately what they have become. To respond to Usurpator's request in the blackmarket - it probably should not be allowed, although the character could be reset in terms of record at the same cost to recreate the character. To do more than this - I think should require an elder vote - because this is opening up a door that could be an issue to deal with. I would probably agree with you if I were an Elder. Still, just researching the possible ways to escape the monster fights I'm sometimes forced to do and have no proper way to avoid. If I have to urge to fight a Blue or something else unknown, I'll do a MQ with you Telin. Certainly more fun for me, probably more fun for you. Just no need to force me to do nasty MQ I never asked for.
UserNamer 06-04-07, 03:11 AM	I have two questions here: - when using reduce person, will the "weight carried" be divided my 8 or 2? - can you take soft cover using a towershield instead of total? and if so, does it only take a move action or a standard?
Zevox 06-04-07, 03:18 AM	I have two questions here: - when using reduce person, will the "weight carried" be divided my 8 or 2? - can you take soft cover using a towershield instead of total? and if so, does it only take a move action or a standard? 1) By weight carried, do you mean how much you can carry, or the weight of the items you are carrying? The former will be recalculated based on your new strength score (for the -2 from the spell) and size (small x3/4, tiny x1/2, etc). The latter depends on the items - many items do not change weight at all (potions, wands, dorjes, wondrous items, etc) because they're "one size fits all" by the rules. Weapons and armor will have their weight halved. 2) No. Zevox
hogarth 06-04-07, 06:49 AM	Not quite. It would be more similar to this: 1. Monster Fight is paired 2. Player declares whether he accepts a monster fight 3. Pitlord rolls monster if fight is accepted 4. Ptlord PMs Pitlords account if fight is not accepted. 5. Pitlords account modifies the pairings posts, credits for a fight that never happened. I guess I'm a bit slow; I'm still not seeing the extra work. If it would be less work for the Pitlords account, perhaps the pitlord could keep the credit, meaning that the amount of work should be exactly as if the gladiator had surrendered (less actually, because no recalculation of XP or power rating would be required by MWB). I can understand if you just plain don't like the idea, but I don't see why it should be more complicated than a surrender (which is the simplest form of fight to pitlord!). Since monster fights do affect your Power rating and that power rating has a "consequence" tied to it (to more or less effect depending on the character), I don't think that people should be allowed to opt out of monster fights. So it sounds like you're saying: You like monster fights. Since you like them, you want them to be mandatory for your characters from time to time (rather than seeking them out via quests or miniquests). If monster fights are mandatory for some characters, then they must be mandatory for every character; otherwise power ratings will be out of whack. All right. That's one opinion. Usurpator -- why don't you post your proposal in the Council thread so that we can get more feedback?
Salrantol 06-04-07, 07:01 AM	I approve of the idea to opt out of monster fights, but I think we should require that it be in the character's title line, adding a "NMF" like Usurpator's latest post recommended.
Macbrea 06-04-07, 08:19 AM	I want the ability to opt out of FFA, Hunter fights and Fights against teams then. Sheesh, Izumi is the perfect example of what happens when your major opponents are oddball fights. Strangely, I am perfectly fine with the monster fights. :P Power rating 559 after this week. 0-4 vs Teams 0-2 vs Hunter or FFA 0-1 vs Interleague with monster ally 3-2 vs Monster 7-11 vs Characters
Rauul 06-04-07, 08:34 AM	I approve of the idea to opt out of monster fights, but I think we should require that it be in the character's title line, adding a "NMF" like Usurpator's latest post recommended. You can Always Surrender, take the lost, nothing lost but some power rating, and a -1 win..
Usurpator 06-04-07, 09:01 AM	You can Always Surrender, take the lost, nothing lost but some power rating, and a -1 win.. True. But except for the obvious mess with the power rating it obvious still has other results: you might (unfairly) prenalize some future opponet by being able to go 'Nova' in later fights because you surrender and you still get XP and gp. Each loss for me means one less fight at that level. Fights I do like to have. Still, always surrender is a serious option. But if we have some people always surrender, why not just make it an option if nobody else is really harmed by making such an option?
Usurpator 06-04-07, 09:18 AM	I want the ability to opt out of FFA, Hunter fights and Fights against teams then. There was some discussion about that previously I think. Personally I like FFA's, Hunter Fights and Team Fights. A part of the problem of making opting out of such a fight also a possibility, is that you can't choose to have such fight if you want to (like you can choose to do a MQ when you want a monster fight) so you might really incur a loss of options for those who do like it (like Telin with the monster fights). Also, FFA and their ilk were never meant as a replacement for holding over unlike monster fights. So while both fight types have similarities, there are also differences. I do think multi-opponent fights are in a different league than one-on-one fights, but that is even more true for monster fights. That's also a reason I'm not really worried about abandoning power rating scores for monster fights. Currently it's more like we mix ratings for soccer and for tennis matches, and we don't do power ratings for MQ's or Quests, right?
TheMagister 06-04-07, 09:47 AM	Would anyone seriously consider implementing a "If a character surrenders a fight, both gladiators shall be considered to have expended 1/4 (rounded up) of their resources in that contest. Spells "expended" in this fashion should be striken through as if cast in the fight, but the player can choose any of her spells as long as the total SL equals the requisite 1/4 expenditure. So a cleric with 14 total SLs for the 3FC who surrenders (or is surrendered to) is considered to have expended 4 SL (14/4=3.5 rounded up) out of the 5 that he brought into the fight. He chooses hold person (2nd), magic weapon (1st), and bless (1st) as the spells that he will consider "expended" for the remainder of his 3FC. He carries over 1 SL as normal to his next fight, so he will have 6 total SLs for that fight (the normal 5, plus 1 additional carryover). PPs are treated the same way. A manifester with 33 total PP who surrenders (or is surrendered to) would be considered to have expended 9 PP for that contest (33/4=8.25 rounded up). His normal alotment for that contest is 11 pp (33/3 = 11). He carries over 2 pp to his next fight of the 3FC. Expendables are not penalized." Whaddaya think? Pretty much kills a "Nova", and makes surrendering a costly choice.
Macbrea 06-04-07, 09:49 AM	Well, I wouldn't want expendables added to that.. 13 charges of wand of fireball [cl 8] is alittle excessive for a surrender.
McJarvis 06-04-07, 10:09 AM	Whaddaya think? Pretty much kills a "Nova", and makes surrendering a costly choice. This would be nearly impossible to impliment. Instead of surrendering a mage could just try to do an archery contest with his opponent. Who is to say that it isn't a legitiment tactic? Do we burn 1/4 of the resources of every gladiator, minimum? What of builds like my own general zaroff where that 1 pp in his pool is more important for psi-foci instead of his "Empty Mind" power? I think the most reasonable solution would be to create "default" tactics for all players, blanketed. This way even if your opponent doesn't send in tactics, it isn't an auto-loss, but is practically so. In order to win, you still gotta put forth effort. 1) If melee weapon is available, seek & destroy with weapon. 2) If melee weapon is not available, seek & destroy with unarmed strikes. 3) Always target most immediate threat Surrendering, of course, would still be an "advantage" to the one actually surrendering[Can take loser rewards for 0 expendables], but opponents of these surrenders don't "Save' their buff sequence. [Legit tactics would still go off, regardless of opponent's "bad" tactics] edit-> Anger's fight vs NiQil's char this week is a good example. I had 5 SL's allotted, but only used 3+ a scroll. I could have used more, but really didn't feel like burning resources just for a gaurunteed win. So instead I burned the minimum required to give me about a 50/50 chance against him. [1 defense+1 incapacitate+1 kill]
Yitzi 06-04-07, 10:10 AM	Then you could just stand and do nothing, or attack unarmed, instead of surrendering. And what if the person who didn't surrender was planning on not using spells this fight (say he's part spellcaster part not).
Usurpator 06-04-07, 10:12 AM	Whaddaya think? Pretty much kills a "Nova", and makes surrendering a costly choice. While a great idea, this does face the problem that some gladiators might choose to fight a 'token effort' match instead of surrendering, while stating in their tactics not to expend any spells or pp. We had some discussion about the whole nova issue two weeks ago, a similar idea was proposed then, but at that time there wasn't enough support to get it picked up as a serious idea.
hogarth 06-04-07, 10:22 AM	This would be nearly impossible to impliment. Instead of surrendering a mage could just try to do an archery contest with his opponent. Who is to say that it isn't a legitiment tactic? Do we burn 1/4 of the resources of every gladiator, minimum? What of builds like my own general zaroff where that 1 pp in his pool is more important for psi-foci instead of his "Empty Mind" power? Khaim suggested something similar a few weeks ago that would be simple to implement -- limit the carryover of power points or spell levels to 1/2 (or 1/3 or whatever) of the unused levels/points. No fuss, no muss.
McJarvis 06-04-07, 10:23 AM	Khaim suggested something similar a few weeks ago that would be simple to implement -- limit the carryover of power points or spell levels to 1/2 (or 1/3 or whatever) of the unused levels/points. No fuss, no muss. I could go in on this. There's still an advantage to saving all your spells 'till last fight in the 3FC[more options, for wizards/clerics/druids]: but not as much of one. Of course, this is more of a detriment to sorcs & psionics than the others.
TheMagister 06-04-07, 10:25 AM	This would be nearly impossible to impliment. Instead of surrendering a mage could just try to do an archery contest with his opponent. Who is to say that it isn't a legitiment tactic? Do we burn 1/4 of the resources of every gladiator, minimum? What of builds like my own general zaroff where that 1 pp in his pool is more important for psi-foci instead of his "Empty Mind" power? I think the most reasonable solution would be to create "default" tactics for all players, blanketed. This way even if your opponent doesn't send in tactics, it isn't an auto-loss, but is practically so. In order to win, you still gotta put forth effort. Surrendering, of course, would still be an "advantage" to the one actually surrendering[Can take loser rewards for 0 expendables], but opponents of these surrenders don't "Save' their buff sequence. [Legit tactics would still go off, regardless of opponent's "bad" tactics] As to characters like Zaroff, a simple "Round Down" instead of "Round Up" would solve that, as would an "a character cannot be reduced to less than 1 pp or SL by this penalty" clause. If the mage decides to do an archery contest, then at least he's expending resources. He might need those arrows later (they might only cost 0.15 ea., but could cost him a match later, if only in theory). Well, I wouldn't want expendables added to that.. 13 charges of wand of fireball [cl 8] is alittle excessive for a surrender. Oh, of course not. "Expendables are not penalized." The last line of my little idea. Then you could just stand and do nothing, or attack unarmed, instead of surrendering. And what if the person who didn't surrender was planning on not using spells this fight (say he's part spellcaster part not). Then at least you submitted tactics. Possibly you lost some duration on a prebuff, or used up a held touch spell. I dunno. But I think there might be more pros than cons. [Disclaimer: this is a broad generalization!] As to "I didn't plan on expending SL or PP this fight!" angle: So what? You were planning on saving 'em so you could "Go Nova" later? Isn't that what we're trying to curtail?
Yitzi 06-04-07, 10:38 AM	[Disclaimer: this is a broad generalization!] As to "I didn't plan on expending SL or PP this fight!" angle: So what? You were planning on saving 'em so you could "Go Nova" later? Isn't that what we're trying to curtail? As you noted, that's a broad generalization. Maybe the fighter 5/wizard 2 was planning on saving his few spell levels for when they're needed. Someone who has levels in noncasting/manifesting classes should lose less than 1/4 of his spells/pp. Also, what was the decision on using wands/dorjes while pinned? What if they require an attack roll?
Macbrea 06-04-07, 10:48 AM	There are some characters that expending pp on wouldn't make sense. Example: Half-giant Fighter 6 Power Points: 2 Feats: Weapon forcus Falchion, Weapon specialization Falchion, Power Attack, Psionic weapon, Speed of thought, Greater Psionic weapon Wielding Adamantine Falchion +2. Exactly, how is he going to expend power points in a fight? But by your rules he automaticly by fight 3 ends up without the ability to use his psychic focus.
templer10 06-04-07, 10:55 AM	Also, what was the decision on using wands/dorjes while pinned? What if they require an attack roll? i dont see why not - after all they can be used even while swallowed whiole which is much worse then a pin- also energy missile dont need attack roll.
Zevox 06-04-07, 11:06 AM	*shakes his head* Guys, what is with trying to implement all these restrictions just to get rid of the rare possibility of "going nova"? Frankly (as I've said before), I'd rather we just remove the 1/3 rule altogether and let players regulate themselves in what they use. I'd never get behind a rule which arbitrarily forces a caster/manifester to lose some of their power just because they surrendered a match or got an easy win. There are legitimate reasons to surrender a match which don't involve desiring to go nova later, and I see no reason to penalize those who have those circumstances just because that could lead to them going nova. And anything which penalizes them for not using all their power in fight they do engage in is that much worse in my eyes. Also, what was the decision on using wands/dorjes while pinned? What if they require an attack roll? Thats never come up before. By the rules, near as I can tell, you're not prohibited from it. Personally, I'd disallow them, since while you're pinned you're held immobile, which means you can't point the wand/dorje at the target as those items require. Zevox
Yitzi 06-04-07, 11:09 AM	elder vs. member, where the member's character is affected...I'll go with the elder.
McJarvis 06-04-07, 11:11 AM	There are some characters that expending pp on wouldn't make sense. Example: Half-giant Fighter 6 Power Points: 2 Feats: Weapon forcus Falchion, Weapon specialization Falchion, Power Attack, Psionic weapon, Speed of thought, Greater Psionic weapon Wielding Adamantine Falchion +2. Exactly, how is he going to expend power points in a fight? But by your rules he automaticly by fight 3 ends up without the ability to use his psychic focus. You're a little late on the ball there: TM already said we should round down instead of up so that psi-focus chars don't run out of PP. :)
Zevox 06-04-07, 11:11 AM	elder vs. member, where the member's character is affected...I'll go with the elder. Like I said, near as I can tell, the rules don't disallow it. The last sentence there was just my personal opinion on how I'd rule it in my own games. Zevox
McJarvis 06-04-07, 11:13 AM	*shakes his head* Guys, what is with trying to implement all these restrictions just to get rid of the rare possibility of "going nova"? Frankly (as I've said before), I'd rather we just remove the 1/3 rule altogether and let players regulate themselves in what they use. I'd be all for this, with the provision of re-implimenting it in the lower ECL's if it became a problem. [too easy to recreate continuously]. Honestly, with expendibles as easy to come by as they are, casters already get unlimited casting more or less. [See Anger's only fight thus far-> only needed to use 2 SL / 5 to accomplish everything he wanted to. The shocking grasp wasn't necessary-> it was used for thematic reasons instead of a sythe or whatever]
Macbrea 06-04-07, 11:14 AM	I agree with Zevox. Just remove the 1/3 rule entirely and let the player decide how they want to fight the fights. If they want to spend all their spells in the first 2 fight and rely on left over resources for the third. That is the way they would have played the character in a real campaign.
TheMagister 06-04-07, 11:17 AM	There are some characters that expending pp on wouldn't make sense. Example: Half-giant Fighter 6 Power Points: 2 Feats: Weapon forcus Falchion, Weapon specialization Falchion, Power Attack, Psionic weapon, Speed of thought, Greater Psionic weapon Wielding Adamantine Falchion +2. Exactly, how is he going to expend power points in a fight? But by your rules he automaticly by fight 3 ends up without the ability to use his psychic focus. As to characters like Zaroff, a simple "Round Down" instead of "Round Up" would solve that, as would an "a character cannot be reduced to less than 1 pp or SL by this penalty" clause.
TelinArtho 06-04-07, 11:18 AM	Also, what was the decision on using wands/dorjes while pinned? What if they require an attack roll? While pinned - you are held immobile but not helpless. The pinner can decide whether to prevent talking as well. For wands in the case of prevented speaking - certainly not. Command word items don't work too well when you can't speak. If the pinner does not prevent speaking - then it would seem that it would be allowed. As an extension of this - unfortunately - since dorjes only require a command thought - it would seem that it would be allowed.
TheMagister 06-04-07, 11:26 AM	I agree with Zevox. Just remove the 1/3 rule entirely and let the player decide how they want to fight the fights. If they want to spend all their spells in the first 2 fight and rely on left over resources for the third. That is the way they would have played the character in a real campaign. Not to seem wishy-washy, but I'd be willing to at least try this.
Macbrea 06-04-07, 11:38 AM	I figure it this way. It's very common in a RL game for the wizard of the party to either ignore one fight entirely or look really silly in the last fight. As mainly a crossbow armed commoner. That really is the ability of the player to manage their resources as the fights come up. Leaving the 3FC and just dropping the 1/3 rule entirely tells the player: They are playing the character and will have to make decisions as they go. This brings up another item of interest people seem to have forgotten about. People who craft as a free action should use up that slot for crafting. The spell slot is expended for use, when you craft using a prerequisite spell. This might really put a damper on Free actoin crafting of scrolls.
Zevox 06-04-07, 11:38 AM	I'd be all for this, with the provision of re-implimenting it in the lower ECL's if it became a problem. [too easy to recreate continuously]. I'd be fine with that. If memory serves, the possibility of new members going nova once then retiring the character was why MWB was against that to begin with. Honestly, with expendibles as easy to come by as they are, casters already get unlimited casting more or less. Oh come now, expendables are no substitute for memorized spells. They work fine enough for simple buffs, but for anything requiring a save (which is most spells/powers that you use to defeat your foe) they're sub-par at best, outright horrid more often. [See Anger's only fight thus far-> only needed to use 2 SL / 5 to accomplish everything he wanted to. The shocking grasp wasn't necessary-> it was used for thematic reasons instead of a sythe or whatever] He also only used a single scroll there, which was a buff spell anyway. Even without that, he'd have about the same fight. Thats a result of a successful save-or-die, not of scrolls. Zevox
Yitzi 06-04-07, 11:45 AM	Does share pain affect nonlethal damage? And what is the final decision about the insane increase in energy missile's DC when augmented? And does energy missile do the same amount of damage to each enemy or roll seperately for each target?
hogarth 06-04-07, 11:50 AM	Just to be clear, I don't have a strong opinion about carrying over power points or spell levels from fight to fight. I can see good arguments on both sides of the issue (personally, I think it's only ever an issue with psions). I just wanted to point out that "it's too complicated" is a lousy argument against changing the rules -- if someone agrees that there's a real problem, then a simple enough solution should be possible. *shakes his head* Guys, what is with trying to implement all these restrictions just to get rid of the rare possibility of "going nova"? Frankly (as I've said before), I'd rather we just remove the 1/3 rule altogether and let players regulate themselves in what they use. I agree that the 1/3 Rule and the 3 Fight Cycle are a bit redundant. The only caveat I would have with removing the 1/3 Rule is due to the new rules on miniquests; without the 1/3 Rule, you could theoretically use all of your spell levels/power points on your first fight and then limp through the rest of your cycle with unsuccessful miniquests (since you can retry a miniquest until you succeed now)
Zevox 06-04-07, 11:56 AM	The only caveat I would have with removing the 1/3 Rule is due to the new rules on miniquests; without the 1/3 Rule, you could theoretically use all of your spell levels/power points on your first fight and then limp through the rest of your cycle with unsuccessful miniquests (since you can retry a miniquest until you succeed now) *blinks* Um, wouldn't that be a bad idea? You do that, and you spent two weeks losing and getting nothing for it. At least in the arena you get loser rewards. I suppose if someone were obsessive over their power rating they might do that, but that doesn't bother me in the least personally. Edit: And in any event, this can be done now. Fights 1 & 2 = intentionally lost miniquests, fight 3 = supernova. Zevox
Yitzi 06-04-07, 12:01 PM	Does share pain affect nonlethal damage? And what is the final decision about the insane increase in energy missile's DC when augmented? And does energy missile do the same amount of damage to each enemy or roll seperately for each target? bump
templer10 06-04-07, 12:04 PM	Does share pain affect nonlethal damage? And what is the final decision about the insane increase in energy missile's DC when augmented? And does energy missile do the same amount of damage to each enemy or roll seperately for each target? it is my char- but as far as i know - damage is damage as far is sahre pain concerned - no reason for it no to be transfered - (and it needs to be tracked seperetly), and what desicion are you refering 2 about energy missile DC? the SRD is perfectly clear about it- +1 dc/pps augmented (the complete psionic thing has no effect in the CORE compendium). about same dmg- it's exacly the same as fireball - you dont roll diffrently for each target it affect do you - same apply here.
Zevox 06-04-07, 12:06 PM	Does share pain affect nonlethal damage? From my reading of it, no. It specifies on several occasions that it transfers hit point damage, which non-lethal damage is not. And what is the final decision about the insane increase in energy missile's DC when augmented? There was no decision being made. The core rule of +1 DC/pp applies here, as it always has. And does energy missile do the same amount of damage to each enemy or roll seperately for each target? Nothing in the rules specifies. Whichever you prefer, I suppose. Ultimately it doesn't really matter. Zevox
Yitzi 06-04-07, 12:07 PM	it is my char- but as far as i know - damage is damage as far is sahre pain concerned - no reason for it no to be transfered But is nonlethal damage considered hhit point damage? and what desicion are you refering 2 about energy missile DC? the SRD is perfectly clear about it. Except that it was pointed out that 1 DC/pp is far more than any of the others, and the errata says it should be 1 DC/2pp, and I think we said we're not counting that errata, but I'm not sure.
Zevox 06-04-07, 12:08 PM	Except that it was pointed out that 1 DC/pp is far more than any of the others, and the errata says it should be 1 DC/2pp, and I think we said we're not counting that errata, but I'm not sure. That errata appears in a non-core book. Until it gets put into the official errata, it unfortunately doesn't apply here. Zevox
templer10 06-04-07, 12:10 PM	But is nonlethal damage considered hhit point damage? Except that it was pointed out that 1 DC/pp is far more than any of the others, and the errata says it should be 1 DC/2pp, and I think we said we're not counting that errata, but I'm not sure. you lose HP= it's HP damage, the fact it's non lethal doesnt mean a thing. we dont use so called errata about energy missiles since it's not an errata for the XPH and it's not in the faq, it's in complete psionic, it was discussed in the tavern i think a while back.
Zevox 06-04-07, 12:15 PM	you lose HP= it's HP damage, the fact it's non lethal doesnt mean a thing. Non-lethal damage isn't hp loss at all though. Its tracked separately, and only impacts anything if it exceeds your current hp total. Its even healed simultaneously with true hp damage. Zevox
McJarvis 06-04-07, 12:19 PM	you lose HP= it's HP damage, the fact it's non lethal doesnt mean a thing. Zevox is correct. Non-lethal damage doesn't even take away temp hp from vigor. better vs a vigor opponent, IMO.
templer10 06-04-07, 12:22 PM	Non-lethal damage isn't hp loss at all though. Its tracked separately, and only impacts anything if it exceeds your current hp total. Its even healed simultaneously with true hp damage. Zevox So if i have 30 HP + say 30 temp HP- to "die" i need to lose 30 hp or 60?
Zevox 06-04-07, 12:26 PM	So if i have 30 HP + say 30 temp HP- to "die" i need to lose 30 hp or 60? To die? You need to take 70 hp in real damage. To be knocked unconscious, 61 in real or non-lethal will do. Here, just read the rules entry on non-lethal damage for yourself (underlining used in place of the italics of the original text since quoting makes everything italic): Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you’ve accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not “real” damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you’re staggered, and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. It doesn’t matter whether the nonlethal damage equals or exceeds your current hit points because the nonlethal damage has gone up or because your current hit points have gone down. Zevox
templer10 06-04-07, 12:27 PM	Question about bought Mounts - can you advance hipogryph/grifon etc in HD or by elite array after you buy them? also - do they come trained with combat riding?
templer10 06-04-07, 12:29 PM	So share pain doesnt cover non lethal dmg? becuase that kind of... doesnt make sense.
Zevox 06-04-07, 12:31 PM	Question about bought Mounts - can you advance hipogryph/grifon etc in HD or by elite array after you buy them? also - do they come trained with combat riding? Presently, for a credit cost, you can advance them after buying them, yes. The discussion about allies that were going on all included losing the ability to advance purchased allies at all though, so that option may disappear soon. No, exotic mounts don't come trained. The rules thread addresses that - you either pay for the training yourself (cost is mentioned in their monster entry) or do the training yourself (requires +10 handle animal for animals, +15 for magical beasts). Zevox
Zevox 06-04-07, 12:37 PM	So share pain doesnt cover non lethal dmg? becuase that kind of... doesnt make sense. Makes perfect sense, if you just look at the rules. Share Pain transfers hit point loss. Non-lethal damage quite specifically is not hit point loss. Ergo, non-lethal damage is not transfered. Zevox
Yitzi 06-04-07, 12:44 PM	Also, are rewards in a monster fight calculated from each monster individually or as a single opponent of that ECL?
Zevox 06-04-07, 12:46 PM	Also, are rewards in a monster fight calculated from each monster individually or as a single opponent of that ECL? Each individually, last I heard. Zevox
Macbrea 06-04-07, 12:50 PM	What they are trying to demonstrate is: Example: Jim 20/20 hp Round Jim manifests vigor +5 hps temperary. Jim 20(+5)/20 hps Round Bob hits jim for 3 lethal damage. Jim 20(+2)/20 hps Round Bob hits jim for 11 non lethal damage. Jim 20(+2)(11 nl)/20 Round Bob hits jim for 10 non lethal damage. Jim 20(+2)(21 nl)/20 You will notice at this point We are adding up non-lethal and subtracting damage from the base hps. If at any point the Non-lethal is higher then the current hps. The character falls unconscious. If vigor were to end, suddenly Jim would immediately fall unconscious. His temp hps need to be tracted seperately because they cannot be healed at all. They are also replaced by any other spell that grants temp hps.
Yitzi 06-04-07, 12:52 PM	His temp hps need to be tracted seperately because they cannot be healed at all. Actually, any real healing (not temp hp) will heal them, in addition to healing lethal damage.
Macbrea 06-04-07, 12:54 PM	Errr. that quote was in relation to Temperary hps. For each point of real damage healed one point of non-lethal damage is healed.
hogarth 06-04-07, 01:00 PM	*blinks* Um, wouldn't that be a bad idea? You do that, and you spent two weeks losing and getting nothing for it. At least in the arena you get loser rewards. I suppose if someone were obsessive over their power rating they might do that, but that doesn't bother me in the least personally. If people truly didn't care about win/loss ratios at all, I suppose we could get rid of both the 1/3 Rule and the 3 Fight Cycle altogether and go back to the old method of allowing spellcasters to use all their spells in every fight. That doesn't sound like much fun to me, though. Edit: And in any event, this can be done now. Fights 1 & 2 = intentionally lost miniquests, fight 3 = supernova. I mentioned that in the Council thread when the "unlimited retries for miniquests" rule was being discussed. I think the reaction was that the "technique" of deliberately slacking off during miniquests would be so sleazy that no one would be likely to abuse it (which I mostly agree with). On the other hand, if a spellcaster used up all his good spells in his first two fights, I could see it being tempting to make fight #3 (whether or not it ends up being successful) not count towards one's win/loss record. Of course, as you point out, this only matters if you care about having a winning record. Personally, I'd rather see either (a) we add miniquest wins and losses to a gladiator's record, or (b) we get rid of in-cycle miniquests altogether.
TelinArtho 06-04-07, 01:33 PM	Ialgo Elf Cleric of Elemental Influence 3 (ECL3) Dentik Earthmolder Dwarf Cleric of Elemental Influence 3 (ECL3) Playing around with elemental clerics at the moment. I like both of them but I'm not sold on either one. Comments are always welcome.
Zevox 06-04-07, 02:15 PM	If people truly didn't care about win/loss ratios at all, I suppose we could get rid of both the 1/3 Rule and the 3 Fight Cycle altogether and go back to the old method of allowing spellcasters to use all their spells in every fight. That doesn't sound like much fun to me, though. Theres a difference between wanting balance in the fights and wanting a good win/loss ratio. I don't care a lick about the latter (hence why I often surrender fights to prevent them from being held over - I'd rather have a loss and a new fight than a two or three week win), I do about the former. The 3FC is in place for the former, not the latter. we get rid of in-cycle miniquests altogether. We do that, and we have no more miniquests, given that we've done away with out-of-cycle ones. Zevox
Usurpator 06-04-07, 02:15 PM	Volunteers needed! I would like some volunteers who are willing to have their characters participate in some alternate style combats. The will be fought on maps especially created for these events, and the victory conditions will be different from the usual ones. They are meant as multiplayer events. Example 1: King of the Hill Gladiators are supposed to conquer and hold one particular spot in the arena for a set time to achieve victory. Example 2: Find the Treasure Gladiators are supposed to capture a specific victory token and carry it around with them for a set time to achieve victory. Fights will be run by me, and follow all regular rules for fights here except for that they don't cost credits, they don't count against your 3FC, etc. etc. It is completely separate from the regular activities and is solely meant as experiment to see if it is fun, iron out the kinks and have people come up with good ideas for the format.
McJarvis 06-04-07, 02:16 PM	What, no light warhorse? I think the elf one is pretty solid, though personally I'm growing bored of all the "ranged touch elemental attack 'till dead" builds going around here. I'm always interested in seeing Dwarven characters go out & fight, I'll prolly be watching the other one more :-)
hogarth 06-04-07, 02:20 PM	Theres a difference between wanting balance in the fights and wanting a good win/loss ratio. I don't care a lick about the latter (hence why I often surrender fights to prevent them from being held over - I'd rather have a loss and a new fight than a two or three week win), I do about the former. The 3FC is in place for the former, not the latter. If you allow a character to use all of his spells/powers in a single fight with no penalty (other than having a failed miniquest or two between fights), it's the same as the old unbalanced way as far as balance goes. Am I missing something? :confused: @Telin: I've considered a character based on turning to get allies before, but I was always turned off by the idea by the fact that you have to wait until level 6 to get anything but a CR 1 ally. At the rate I advance my characters, that's a lo-o-o-o-ong time. What kind of allies are you thinking of? A wyrmling dragon of some kind is probably the best bang for the CR, I think.
Macbrea 06-04-07, 02:22 PM	So.. odd question.. are we going to fix the problem before Razorfang (609) or Izumi (559) reach 99 PR? Heh.. figured at some point they will get a win again and jump upto 1k.
McJarvis 06-04-07, 02:22 PM	If you allow a character to use all of his spells/powers in a single fight with no penalty (other than having a failed miniquest or two between fights), it's the same as the old unbalanced way as far as balance goes. Am I missing something? :confused: Patience is something that few have?
McJarvis 06-04-07, 02:28 PM	Oh come now, expendables are no substitute for memorized spells. They work fine enough for simple buffs, but for anything requiring a save (which is most spells/powers that you use to defeat your foe) they're sub-par at best, outright horrid more often. Just saw this-> The problem is that even at ECL 3 it's easy to get 3->4 SL per fight, and I'm not sure you need that many spell levels per fight for just save-or-die spells. Expendibles can safely be used to buff & then you can just use your slots for spells that heavily depend on caster level or saves. He also only used a single scroll there, which was a buff spell anyway. Even without that, he'd have about the same fight. Thats a result of a successful save-or-die, not of scrolls. But if he didn't have access to his scroll of invis, he would have used exactly 5 SL's, which is what we're saying is "acceptable". If I had decided to go all-out & use all my alotted spells & 1/3 of my expendables, that fight could have been even _more_ one sided. [& not been as dependant on luck as I was] A good example is pretty much any fight The Artificer was in[Hell-spawn mules aside]
templer10 06-04-07, 02:28 PM	someone refresh my memory please - is teh potion list in teh SRD the only thing avaible without credits or were custom potions were opened when the wand issue was reviewed?
Pitlords 06-04-07, 02:30 PM	Okay - I have updated the roster, the pairings post in both the Characters and Battles thread, and the active Pitlords post. If something is missing from all of that - let me know. If there's an error - certainly let me know. For the roster - I kept an old copy from before modifications so that I could revert if needed (since this is my first time). I also added a tag at the end of everyone who changed power ratings with "win" or "lost" according to the result of the fight. I also noticed an error in the power ratings before - Psellus the Frail was marked as winning his first match, but his power rating dropped to 900 instead of increasing to 1100 because of it.
Macbrea 06-04-07, 02:33 PM	Is there a reason Felice (ECL 4) is in silver rather then grey for ratings?
McJarvis 06-04-07, 02:35 PM	Okay - I have updated the roster, the pairings post in both the Characters and Battles thread, and the active Pitlords post. If something is missing from all of that - let me know. Ya might have not gotten around to reading it-> but I sent pitlords a msg about my getting back on active pitlording duty.
TelinArtho 06-04-07, 02:49 PM	Is there a reason Felice (ECL 4) is in silver rather then grey for ratings? Probably a hold-over from an older era and an intent on saving characters: [COLOR=Silver] vs [COLOR=Gray] Ya might have not gotten around to reading it-> but I sent pitlords a msg about my getting back on active pitlording duty. Well check the active pitlords because I think I added you back in. If you are missing - let me know. someone refresh my memory please - is teh potion list in teh SRD the only thing avaible without credits or were custom potions were opened when the wand issue was reviewed? Potions are open as long as the CL is not greater than your ECL.
McJarvis 06-04-07, 02:54 PM	I do not see myself as active here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5179881#post5179881), though I admit I don't know where the "official" active pitlord page is.
Zevox 06-04-07, 02:55 PM	I do not see myself as active here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5179881#post5179881), though I admit I don't know where the "official" active pitlord page is. Thats the one. Incidentally Telin, it looks like my "no random MQs" request is missing from there as well. Zevox
TelinArtho 06-04-07, 02:58 PM	What, no light warhorse? I think the elf one is pretty solid, though personally I'm growing bored of all the "ranged touch elemental attack 'till dead" builds going around here. I'm always interested in seeing Dwarven characters go out & fight, I'll prolly be watching the other one more :-) Actually - I'm necessarily intending on using the Wand of Produce Flame all that often - probably only when using the bow won't be too efficient or the other abilities are not as effective. It is also a handy way to sit behind my wind wall so I can fire at my opponent and not have them fire back. The dwarf has some issues - especially when I realized he wasn't an elf and didn't have Bow proficiency... hopefully the sling will prove effective enough without needing to resort to the Magic Stone spell (which is a pretty crappy spell overall in my opinion...). @Telin: I've considered a character based on turning to get allies before, but I was always turned off by the idea by the fact that you have to wait until level 6 to get anything but a CR 1 ally. At the rate I advance my characters, that's a lo-o-o-o-ong time. What kind of allies are you thinking of? A wyrmling dragon of some kind is probably the best bang for the CR, I think. Well, with the allies rules the way they are - the character can't even get an elemental ally until ECL5 anyway - so it isn't a huge focus for the character. That's not to say they won't be using them - but it certainly isn't their focus right now. As to wyrmling dragons or other allies - I thought originally that it only applied to elementals. Looking over it again though - that's not what it says... so in other words - I was just thinking of elementals before... now you've opened up all kinds of options. Air elementals are pretty effective interceptors up through ECL6 in my experience with them - even as small elementals. Earth elementals are slow, but with the ability to merge into the ground - I'm hoping I can work around that. With the possibility of mephits, dragons or other outsiders - that certainly opens up other options that I wasn't considering before. Of course, with a requirement of double HD in order to command the creature - I probably still won't have a variety until ~ECL8 or 9... I'll have to look. It certainly gives me a stronger incentive to pick up Improved Turning though...
TelinArtho 06-04-07, 02:59 PM	@McJarvis and Zevox... Maybe I forgot to edit that post... BRB.
Pitlords 06-04-07, 03:01 PM	And fixed.
Macbrea 06-04-07, 03:18 PM	ah.. and the answer to those that thought you should not be charged for held over fight. Yup. you are. 1 active fight plus 1 held over fighter plus 1 full crafter = 10 charged.
McJarvis 06-04-07, 03:20 PM	ah.. and the answer to those that thought you should not be charged for held over fight. Yup. you are. 1 active fight plus 1 held over fighter plus 1 full crafter = 10 charged. To my knowledge, I've never been charged for this sort of thing...but then again, I don't check my cred total very often.
Macbrea 06-04-07, 03:21 PM	I had 10 going into this week when I asked about it. I gained none. Unless MWB or Telin didn't do credits this week.
TelinArtho 06-04-07, 03:25 PM	I had 10 going into this week when I asked about it. I gained none. Unless MWB or Telin didn't do credits this week. I didn't touch credits - except for the fights that changed after pairings (which I think I noted in the FotW thread). You might send a note to pitlords and I'll save it for MWB when he comes back.
Macbrea 06-04-07, 03:29 PM	I will just ask him when he comes back. Only thing, I ever use my credits for anyways is to start character above level 3. Cannot really stand the 3-5 level range.
TheMagister 06-04-07, 03:37 PM	I don't do it very often, so - Question: What should my title line read when I want to craft as a full activity? Ex: Ready for Jun 6th; Full Activity: Craft (armorsmithing) - adamant platemail I seem to remember the "ready for jun 6th" part confusing Pitlords' spider-crawler-thingy, which reads the "ready" as "this character wants to fight". TM
TelinArtho 06-04-07, 03:42 PM	I don't do it very often, so - Question: What should my title line read when I want to craft as a full activity? Ex: Ready for Jun 6th; Full Activity: Craft (armorsmithing) - adamant platemail I seem to remember the "ready for jun 6th" part confusing Pitlords' spider-crawler-thingy, which reads the "ready" as "this character wants to fight". TM FULL ACTIVITY: Jun 6th, Crafting Adamantine Full Plate (1/3)
TelinArtho 06-04-07, 03:53 PM	Volunteers needed! I would like some volunteers who are willing to have their characters participate in some alternate style combats. The will be fought on maps especially created for these events, and the victory conditions will be different from the usual ones. They are meant as multiplayer events. Example 1: King of the Hill Gladiators are supposed to conquer and hold one particular spot in the arena for a set time to achieve victory. Example 2: Find the Treasure Gladiators are supposed to capture a specific victory token and carry it around with them for a set time to achieve victory. Fights will be run by me, and follow all regular rules for fights here except for that they don't cost credits, they don't count against your 3FC, etc. etc. It is completely separate from the regular activities and is solely meant as experiment to see if it is fun, iron out the kinks and have people come up with good ideas for the format. You are welcome to use any of my characters on the roster if you like. Heck - you can use any of the characters in my pitlord profile if you like - though some of them may not be "up to snuff" with the current rules.
Macbrea 06-04-07, 03:56 PM	Sheesh, battles thread is huge so far.. 15 megs downloaded so far.
Vathelokai 06-04-07, 04:02 PM	Volunteers needed! I would like some volunteers who are willing to have their characters participate in some alternate style combats. The will be fought on maps especially created for these events, and the victory conditions will be different from the usual ones. They are meant as multiplayer events. Example 1: King of the Hill Gladiators are supposed to conquer and hold one particular spot in the arena for a set time to achieve victory. Example 2: Find the Treasure Gladiators are supposed to capture a specific victory token and carry it around with them for a set time to achieve victory. Fights will be run by me, and follow all regular rules for fights here except for that they don't cost credits, they don't count against your 3FC, etc. etc. It is completely separate from the regular activities and is solely meant as experiment to see if it is fun, iron out the kinks and have people come up with good ideas for the format. I volunteer everyone in my sig; including retired and 'in creation' characters. Psibeast is on campaign, but I could post a temp sheet for her to use as a dummy character (I'd like to try her on these, since she's a rulebrender and can simulate lots of other creature types)
templer10 06-04-07, 04:03 PM	You are welcome to use any of my characters on the roster if you like. Heck - you can use any of the characters in my pitlord profile if you like - though some of them may not be "up to snuff" with the current rules. sure ill Bring my druid (ecl 7) and possibly 1 of my ECL 6 psions (the druid is better at multi player).
TelinArtho 06-04-07, 04:06 PM	Sheesh, battles thread is huge so far.. 15 megs downloaded so far. The old Fights of Gladius thread is 30meg. I actually don't have the Battles threads downloaded though. By comparison - the Character's thread is only 7.5meg (well it was one month ago anyway...)
TheMagister 06-04-07, 04:10 PM	FULL ACTIVITY: Jun 6th, Crafting Adamantine Full Plate (1/3) Thanks!
Zevox 06-04-07, 05:16 PM	Volunteers needed! I would like some volunteers who are willing to have their characters participate in some alternate style combats. The will be fought on maps especially created for these events, and the victory conditions will be different from the usual ones. They are meant as multiplayer events. Example 1: King of the Hill Gladiators are supposed to conquer and hold one particular spot in the arena for a set time to achieve victory. Example 2: Find the Treasure Gladiators are supposed to capture a specific victory token and carry it around with them for a set time to achieve victory. Fights will be run by me, and follow all regular rules for fights here except for that they don't cost credits, they don't count against your 3FC, etc. etc. It is completely separate from the regular activities and is solely meant as experiment to see if it is fun, iron out the kinks and have people come up with good ideas for the format. You're free to use some of my characters if you'd like. My sig has links to all my currently active ones, and I've got another 6 either retired or inactive (though the retired ones are mostly less than effective in the arena) if you'd like. Zevox
Salrantol 06-04-07, 05:28 PM	Is there a reason Felice (ECL 4) is in silver rather then grey for ratings?Because she just came out of retirement and she's old-school, from back when power ratings were in silver.
Rauul 06-04-07, 08:34 PM	is Miniquesting for Corpses legal for a Miniquest? Looking for 2 yeth hound (cr 3's) corpses 1 Chimera corpse (cr 7) Or is it to get one or the other?
Vathelokai 06-05-07, 01:51 AM	General notice: Had a real busy week, and havn't been online much. Should be able to catch up on quest and guild stuff tomorrow.
stimpydoda 06-05-07, 06:10 AM	"Sarai Farenze" Thanks :)
Adolfo_Mondschein 06-05-07, 06:42 AM	Newbie here! Just posted my first Character. http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12612508&postcount=1147 Feel free to poke at it with your pointy sticks of judgment. I'm sure I'll need to fix something on it. :) Thanks in advance!
hogarth 06-05-07, 06:49 AM	is Miniquesting for Corpses legal for a Miniquest? Looking for 2 yeth hound (cr 3's) corpses 1 Chimera corpse (cr 7) Or is it to get one or the other? One miniquest can get you allies equal to your maxCA. So if you wanted to create two yeth hound skeletons and a chimera zombie (say), that's (CR 1)*2 + (CR 6) = 8; that'd be appropriate for an ECL 10 character's miniquest.
hogarth 06-05-07, 06:59 AM	"Sarai Farenze" Thanks :) Looks like a decent fighter to me. A few minor comments (which you can take or leave): Sunrods are mostly useless in the arena, but they could come in handy in a quest or miniquest. There's nothing to be lost by switching Mounted Combat to level 1 and taking Psionic Talent instead of Wild Talent. I don't think that it's worth a feat for 2 pp, though. You can't make money with Profession unless you have at least 5 ranks. I'd much rather take the power Vigor than Mind Thrust, but YMMV. I'm sure other people will have more and better comments. Cheers!
TheMagister 06-05-07, 07:04 AM	"Sarai Farenze" Thanks :) Welcome! It's always good to see new faces...er...names. Well, right off the bat: Why "wild talent" for your human bonus feat? It doesn't seem to do anything for you that taking levels in Wilder doesn't already accomplish. I'd get rid of that and move the Mounted Combat tree up a step. If you want to focus on the Melee aspect of mounted combat, take Spirited Charge for your 3rd level feat; if you're interested in being more of a generalist (like me), go with mounted archery and take an additional level in Ranger down the road for rapid shot (whee!). You have some hanging /font tags in your Ranged Weapon lists. Delete the ones after the longbow, energy ray, and net entries and leave the one after the tanglefoot entry. What does "[1clr]" mean after the Survival and Tumble skill entries? If Survival isn't really necessary for a skill package or prestige class, consider taking those ranks and socking them into a couple different knowledge (any) skills for those inevitable monster fights. You're only ever sorry you put them there until you get your first monster fight. That little bit of info usually is enough to save your character's life. ;) In your expendables section: consider upping the ML on a few of those powerstones (especially Vigor!) and augmenting them. A ML2A powerstone of vigor is 10 temp. hp and lasts twice as long. 5 hp doesn't go a long way here. As a matter of fact, if you have +557 gp left over, I'd personally go out of my way trying to move things around until I could afford a wand of CLW (750 gp). Selling those potions of CLW would be a good start. You won't be sorry. Maybe sell the Tanglefoot bag too? 50 gp is 50 gp... All in all, a neat character. Good luck! Come by the Warfare Alliance! {shameless plug} TM (WAR guildmaster) :blush: I'd much rather take the power Vigor than Mind Thrust, but YMMV. Quoted for truth! tm
Salrantol 06-05-07, 07:07 AM	"Sarai Farenze" Thanks :)The first thing I'd say is give up the potions of cure light wounds. She's a ranger. Get her a wand of CLW. 750 gp. She's got 557 sitting around, +100 for not buying the potions. I'm sure you can find another 100gp of gear you can part with for 1 3FC to get the wand--maybe delay the MW longsword 1 3FC. It'll pay off.
TheMagister 06-05-07, 07:14 AM	Newbie here! Just posted my first Character. http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12612508&postcount=1147 Feel free to poke at it with your pointy sticks of judgment. I'm sure I'll need to fix something on it. :) Thanks in advance! Well, the first thing that jumps out at me is: leather armor? Trade the Cloak of Resistance off for some mithral chainshirt action and get an extra 2 AC out of the deal. Go ahead and spring for either a darkwood or plain ol' masterwork shield, too. It'll help with your ACP. That gauntlet seems out of place on a character with natural weapons. The only reason I could see to have one (or two) would be for cold iron/silver reasons (to help with DR in the later ECLs). In your skills section, I don't think you can actually use tumble until you've got 1 full rank in it. Might wanna cook up an extra rank if you can. I like lizardfolk. With the right classes and equipment, you can really get an astronomical AC out of the deal. ;) You saw the plug earlier for the Warfare Alliance. Same holds true here! Good luck! TM
Salrantol 06-05-07, 07:24 AM	Newbie here! Just posted my first Character. http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12612508&postcount=1147 Feel free to poke at it with your pointy sticks of judgment. I'm sure I'll need to fix something on it. :) Thanks in advance!I'm going to start with a little bit of CoCo-only paperwork--you need to list Balance, Climb, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot in your skills. You're also wrong on the speed of your horse. You've got him in scale mail, which is medium armor, so his speed is always 40. If you're planning on always riding him, that shouldn't be a problem, though, since you weigh a whopping 234 pounds and thus would encumber him even without any gear for either of you. I would recommend leaving your money at home, especially considering how close you are to being encumbered. I'd also suggest avoiding all the bags you've got since you're not really carrying anything that'll need bags. That'll save you 10lbs you can use to upgrade your armor to MW studded leather for an extra AC. And I look closer and see that you may have added wrong, I only have you down for 69.718 lbs even counting the money and bags, so you could go with the MWSL anyway. Remember, even at ECL 3 there are foes with ray of enfeeblement to slow you down. I'm not sold on Psionic Hole. You'll find plenty of people to tell you it's not great, and since you've only got one feat at this point, you might want to look for something a bit more generally useful. Most of the PsiWar's and wilders running around won't be targetting you with their powers, so it'll only be good against psions.
Salrantol 06-05-07, 07:26 AM	I guess you've got to get up pretty early in the morning to comment on characters before TheMagister, eh?
TheMagister 06-05-07, 07:29 AM	Only when TM is working the dayshift at his job. There's nothing else that'll get me outta bed at this unholy hour. ;)
Yitzi 06-05-07, 10:33 AM	Question: If an ECL 3 has 350 gp worth of expendables, and then scribes 150 gp of scrolls, are they in violation immediately or not until they actually get the scrolls at the end of the 3FC? The obvious ramification is whether they will be in violation if they use and/or sell 50 gp of expendables before/at the end of the 3FC.
stimpydoda 06-05-07, 02:01 PM	Welcome! It's always good to see new faces...er...names. Well, right off the bat: Why "wild talent" for your human bonus feat? It doesn't seem to do anything for you that taking levels in Wilder doesn't already accomplish. I'd get rid of that and move the Mounted Combat tree up a step. If you want to focus on the Melee aspect of mounted combat, take Spirited Charge for your 3rd level feat; if you're interested in being more of a generalist (like me), go with mounted archery and take an additional level in Ranger down the road for rapid shot (whee!). In your expendables section: consider upping the ML on a few of those powerstones (especially Vigor!) and augmenting them. A ML2A powerstone of vigor is 10 temp. hp and lasts twice as long. 5 hp doesn't go a long way here. All in all, a neat character. Good luck! Come by the Warfare Alliance! {shameless plug} TM (WAR guildmaster) :blush: For a human to take a psionic class, don't they need the feat wild talent? Future feats I'm thinking about are Imp. Init., Wep Focus(Lance), Spirited Charge, and a crafting feat. How much does it cost to raise the ML? Also, don't mind the plug, I'm definately starting to look at guilds and I'm interested :D Thanks for the help!
Salrantol 06-05-07, 02:11 PM	For a human to take a psionic class, don't they need the feat wild talent?No.How much does it cost to raise the ML?A ML2 powerstone of vigor (augmented) costs (PL1 x ML2) x 25 gp = 50 gp.
McJarvis 06-05-07, 02:13 PM	For a human to take a psionic class, don't they need the feat wild talent? nope How much does it cost to raise the ML? Depends on the power. My understanding of it is that the forumla is 25gpxMLxPL(power level). Once you augment a power enough, you effectively raise its power level, by our rules. Someone else can likely get more "detailed" for you...but some examples Vigor[ML1]: 25gp[25x1x1] Vigor[ML2]: 50gp[25x1x2] Vigor[ML3]: 150gp[25x2x3] Also, don't mind the plug, I'm definately starting to look at guilds and I'm interested :D WAR is the best guild our there, hands down. I'm even unbiased-> as you can see, I have no characters in it. Just ignore that I'm assistant guildmaster... Thanks for the help! No problem. I like to help the new kids on the block.
hogarth 06-05-07, 02:25 PM	Future feats I'm thinking about are Imp. Init., Wep Focus(Lance), Spirited Charge, and a crafting feat. Improved Initiative is a much worse feat in the Core Coliseum than in a tabletop game. Most maps will require at least one or two rounds before you spot your opponent, at which point who acts first is often determined by whose readied action goes off first or whose turn it is when line-of-effect is established. The exception is the Plains map. A few fights have been determined by a lucky shot on the first round... :D
McJarvis 06-05-07, 02:31 PM	Improved Initiative is a much worse feat in the Core Coliseum than in a tabletop game. Most maps will require at least one or two rounds before you spot your opponent, at which point who acts first is often determined by whose readied action goes off first or whose turn it is when line-of-effect is established. The exception is the Plains map. A few fights have been determined by a lucky shot on the first round... :D I'd say it's more important if you want to buff alot & don't want to get jacked on small maps like cavarn/temple/sewer[though sewer isn't really _that_ small]-> but at best it buys you 1 round.
Abyssal Stalker 06-05-07, 02:32 PM	One miniquest can get you allies equal to your maxCA. So if you wanted to create two yeth hound skeletons and a chimera zombie (say), that's (CR 1)*2 + (CR 6) = 8; that'd be appropriate for an ECL 10 character's miniquest. Could you guide me to this rule?
hogarth 06-05-07, 02:40 PM	Could you guide me to this rule? Maybe I just made it up... ;) I guess I was implying a rule from what it says under "Diplomacy Allies" You must complete a Quest or Miniquest with the questgoal being the ally. The EL of the quest must be equal to your ECL. You may quest for up to your maxCA (maximum Coefficient of Allies).
McJarvis 06-05-07, 03:04 PM	I guess I was implying a rule from what it says under "Diplomacy Allies" If that rule bleeds over into other ally-areas, then it is an interesting take on leadership cohorts/followers.
hogarth 06-05-07, 03:21 PM	If that rule bleeds over into other ally-areas, then it is an interesting take on leadership cohorts/followers. Note that it doesn't apply in the case of Handle Animal allies -- if you have a high enough Handle Animal, you can quest for a colossal monstrous scorpion, regardless of whether you can bring it into the arena. So I hereby retract my previous comment. Instead I'll say: "The rules don't say how many corpses you can gather with one quest. Take it up in the Council thread if you want clarification."
Rauul 06-05-07, 03:36 PM	Note that it doesn't apply in the case of Handle Animal allies -- if you have a high enough Handle Animal, you can quest for a colossal monstrous scorpion, regardless of whether you can bring it into the arena. So I hereby retract my previous comment. Instead I'll say: "The rules don't say how many corpses you can gather with one quest. Take it up in the Council thread if you want clarification." Well the corpses Corrupter wants So he can Prebuff for Specific maps are 2 yeth hound corpses(cr 3's) 2 Centaur corpse(cr 3's) And 1 Minotaur Corpse (cr 4) This would eliminate the Mules and Mutts he already has.. making him a little more versitile..
Zevox 06-05-07, 03:47 PM	So he can Prebuff for Specific maps Can't do that amigo. You prebuff the allies you want, and they either come with you, or they don't. No prebuffing one for the sewer, another for the plains, etc etc. Zevox
TelinArtho 06-05-07, 03:50 PM	What was told to me by Cat when Zax was MQing for his insects was that the total CR of the creatures could not exceed the EL of the quest. So for instance - CR2 +CR2 + CR2 = EL5 quest. I don't believe that was ever included in the rules though.
Zevox 06-05-07, 03:57 PM	2+2+2=5? Am I in an alternate universe or something?
Yitzi 06-05-07, 04:03 PM	What was told to me by Cat when Zax was MQing for his insects was that the total CR of the creatures could not exceed the EL of the quest. So for instance - CR2 +CR2 + CR2 = EL5 quest. I don't believe that was ever included in the rules though. Doesn't it say that the gold rewards are equal to the rewards for a quest of ECL equal to actual ECL-total CR of creatures quested for? So since there is no such thing as rewards for a negative ECL, that would imply that the total CL of the creatures cannot exceed the EL of the quest. Perhaps it should be explicit, though.
Zevox 06-05-07, 04:05 PM	Doesn't it say that the gold rewards are equal to the rewards for a quest of ECL equal to actual ECL-total CR of creatures quested for? Thats for diplomacy allies only. Which no longer exist. Zevox
Yitzi 06-05-07, 04:09 PM	Question: If an ECL 3 has 350 gp worth of expendables, and then scribes 150 gp of scrolls, are they in violation immediately or not until they actually get the scrolls at the end of the 3FC? The obvious ramification is whether they will be in violation if they use and/or sell 50 gp of expendables before/at the end of the 3FC. bump.
Rauul 06-05-07, 04:09 PM	What was told to me by Cat when Zax was MQing for his insects was that the total CR of the creatures could not exceed the EL of the quest. So for instance - CR2 +CR2 + CR2 = EL5 quest. I don't believe that was ever included in the rules though. Well i don't believe 4 cr 3's and a cr 4 is over ECL 8, i could be wrong.. maybe 8. something
Zevox 06-05-07, 04:11 PM	Well i don't believe 4 cr 3's and a cr 4 is over ECL 8, i could be wrong.. maybe 8. something *blinks* 3+3+3+3+4=16, last time I counted...
McJarvis 06-05-07, 04:18 PM	*blinks* 3+3+3+3+4=16, last time I counted... He means EL. CR 3+ CR3=CR5 && CR 3+ CR 3=CR5 CR5+CR5=CR7 CR7+CR4=? [I really don't know more than the CR+CR=[CR+2] rule. I suppose since CR7+CR7=CR9, CR7+CR4 must be right around CR8]
Yitzi 06-05-07, 04:19 PM	4XCR 3+CR 4 is slightly less than ECL 8 (CR a+CR b is not CR a+b), but I think the rule is that the arithmetic sum of the CRs cannot exceed the EL, not that the total CR cannot exceed the EL. And again, I would like to call attention to my question above.
Zevox 06-05-07, 04:36 PM	He means EL. CR 3+ CR3=CR5 && CR 3+ CR 3=CR5 CR5+CR5=CR7 CR7+CR4=? [I really don't know more than the CR+CR=[CR+2] rule. I suppose since CR7+CR7=CR9, CR7+CR4 must be right around CR8] Telin said total CR, not EL. Big difference. Zevox
templer10 06-05-07, 04:37 PM	iam wondering - when crafting as a free activity something that takes more then 1 week - do you need the whole cost of the crafted item up front or just enough to pay for it when it's done (taking into acoount the possibility of losing obviosly)?
McJarvis 06-05-07, 04:38 PM	Telin said total CR, not EL. Big difference. Zevox CR's stack that way too, except in CoCo ally-terms. All I was pointing out was that that was what Rauul was adding up by.
TheMagister 06-05-07, 04:41 PM	iam wondering - when crafting as a free activity something that takes more then 1 week - do you need the whole cost of the crafted item up front or just enough to pay for it when it's done (taking into acoount the possibility of losing obviosly)? You've gotta have it up front. For example: if you're crafting 1000 gp worth of armor, you've gotta have 1000 gp in your gold stash before the fight.
McJarvis 06-05-07, 04:42 PM	RE: Recent Prison Activity [I didn't want to bog down the prison with this] Recently there have been ALOT of violations reported in the prison that are not really violations. I'd just like to actually _thank_ the people doing this, since I'd rather you report things you "think" are violations than never report anything at all. I just thought that should be said, since even I tend to slam it in people's faces when they try to violate usage of word coined by me! my characters for non-violations. There are alot of "non-violations" out there that really could be better reported on sheets, and at least these posts make players aware that they could improve their character sheets in some way. ~McJ~
UserNamer 06-05-07, 04:49 PM	1. can a small humanoid ride a large horse? 2. can a horse or other animal be ridden without having the combat package or any other trick, but it is an intellegent creature?
Macbrea 06-05-07, 04:51 PM	1. can a small humanoid ride a large horse? 2. can a horse or other animal be ridden without having the combat package or any other trick, but it is an intellegent creature? 1) Yes. 2) Yes, but if it is a horse, pony or other mount not trained for combat in combat it will require a move action to control the animal each round as a ride check DC 20
UserNamer 06-05-07, 04:57 PM	1) Yes. 2) Yes, but if it is a horse, pony or other mount not trained for combat in combat it will require a move action to control the animal each round as a ride check DC 20 on 2: even if the creature is intelligent. So my creature is intelligent, but not trained for combat. Is the ride check required?
Macbrea 06-05-07, 04:59 PM	Creatures with an intelligence of 3 or higher according to the rules Do not require a ride check to control them in combat. Technically, you cannot teach them tricks.
UserNamer 06-05-07, 05:00 PM	Alright that is really nice. Thanks for your help and your quick replies.
UserNamer 06-05-07, 05:01 PM	Just two more things: A spell that you have cast on yourself, can you dismiss it? Can you dismiss it as a free action? or what action does it require? Can animals use aid another if told by their master? I mean animals with 2 int. The donkey?
hogarth 06-05-07, 05:06 PM	Just one more thing: A spell that you have cast on yourself, can you dismiss it? Can you dismiss it as a free action? or what action does it require? Spells that have a "(D)" in their Duration line are dismissible. Dismissing a spell is a standard action.
Yitzi 06-05-07, 05:06 PM	Question: If an ECL 3 has 350 gp worth of expendables, and then scribes 150 gp of scrolls, are they in violation immediately or not until they actually get the scrolls at the end of the 3FC? The obvious ramification is whether they will be in violation if they use and/or sell 50 gp of expendables before/at the end of the 3FC. bump. Double bump.
TheMagister 06-05-07, 05:13 PM	I'm gonna go out on a limb. If at any time a character possesses expendables with a total value in excess of the expendable cap, they will be considered to be in violation. A character that crafts scrolls or other items that are considered expendables is not considered to be in violation of the expendables cap until the items are actually usable by that character. That means that a 3rd level wizard who is already at 450/450 gp can craft (just to pick a number) 450 additional gp worth of scrolls during a 3FC and not be considered to be in violation until the beginning of the next 3FC when he completes the crafting of the scrolls and they actually become usable. A wizard in such a situation would be forced to sell his expendable items (recently crafted or not) until their total value was reduced to 450 gp before he would be allowed to compete in his next 3FC. ... I think that is a good answer.
templer10 06-05-07, 05:16 PM	Just two more things: A spell that you have cast on yourself, can you dismiss it? Can you dismiss it as a free action? or what action does it require? Can animals use aid another if told by their master? I mean animals with 2 int. The donkey? Anything an animal isnt trained to do is "pushing" it - you can probably train it to do trick "aid another" not sure if you need a diffrent trick for each version of train another (+2 AC, +2 to hit etc), but that aid another is rather limited considering the donky's need to be in melee range of whatever it is...
TelinArtho 06-05-07, 05:18 PM	I'm gonna go out on a limb. If at any time a character possesses expendables with a total value in excess of the expendable cap, they will be considered to be in violation. A character that crafts scrolls or other items that are considered expendables is not considered to be in violation of the expendables cap until the items are actually usable by that character. That means that a 3rd level wizard who is already at 450/450 gp can craft (just to pick a number) 450 additional gp worth of scrolls during a 3FC and not be considered to be in violation until the beginning of the next 3FC when he completes the crafting of the scrolls and they actually become usable. A wizard in such a situation would be forced to sell his expendable items (recently crafted or not) until their total value was reduced to 450 gp before he would be allowed to compete in his next 3FC. ... I think that is a good answer. Although to my knowledge it hasn't come up yet until this week - but given more thoughts on the matter - I think that is the "best" way to handle it. Otherwise it restricts scribing scrolls until after the 3FC in most cases - and I'm not sure that is really necessary. In any case, these expendables should be listed as unavailable until the next 3FC.
Zevox 06-05-07, 05:21 PM	1. can a small humanoid ride a large horse? 2. can a horse or other animal be ridden without having the combat package or any other trick, but it is an intellegent creature? Macbrea is wrong on #2. Just take a look at some of the most common intelligent mounts - Griffons and Pegasi, for instance. Their entries in the MM/SRD specify that they need to be taught the combat riding package to be used as mounts. Just two more things: A spell that you have cast on yourself, can you dismiss it? Can you dismiss it as a free action? or what action does it require? Can animals use aid another if told by their master? I mean animals with 2 int. The donkey? 1) If the spell has a (D) next to its duration, it is dismissable. If not, it is not. Dismissing a spell is a standard action. This can all be found in the basic magic rules. 2) No. They are too stupid to perform such an advanced action. Edit: It may be argued that they could be taught a trick to use the action, but I'd argue against that, and in any event then their master would need to use a move action to handle the animal to do that. Zevox
Usurpator 06-05-07, 06:28 PM	If at any time a character possesses expendables with a total value in excess of the expendable cap, they will be considered to be in violation. I think the expendables cap should just count for expendables you bring into a 3FC. If you have a hoard of bull's strength potions stashed at home, who cares, as long as you don't bring any more than your allowance into the 3FC. Any expendables marked as at home, stay at home for the entire 3FC. Any expendables gained from crafting during a 3FC are added to this home stash. After finishing a 3FC you can decide what to shift from your home stash to your carried expendables, and what to throw back into your home stash. After all, it's not owning the expendables that is the problem, it's bringing them all into the fight that is, right?
Usurpator 06-05-07, 06:30 PM	Can animals use aid another if told by their master? I mean animals with 2 int. The donkey? Please, no 'Aid Another' abuses/cheeses. I've had plenty with the Harvester and his auto-opening cage of twenty untrained 'aid another' rats.
hogarth 06-05-07, 06:52 PM	Macbrea is wrong on #2. Just take a look at some of the most common intelligent mounts - Griffons and Pegasi, for instance. Their entries in the MM/SRD specify that they need to be taught the combat riding package to be used as mounts. That may be, but good ol' Skip Williams had this to say in "Rules of the Game: All About Mounts (Pt. 5)": Intelligent Mounts According to the Dungeon Master's Guide, a mount with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher acts like an NPC ally rather than a mount. Riding such an ally works much like riding an aggressive mount in battle (see Part Two), except that you don't have to make a Ride check to act while riding. (If your mount carries you willingly, the ride is smooth enough so your actions aren't restricted.) You also cannot make a Ride check to control the mount's actions, but you can make a Diplomacy (or possibly a Wild Empathy) check to get the mount to accept your direction. If you do, your mount acts just like a mount trained for combat riding. Even if you cannot (or do not choose to) direct your mount's actions, you still can ride along, making your own initiative roll and possibly delaying until after your mount acts, as noted in Part Two. Here's the relevant part from "Part Two": Riding Along with an Aggressive Mount: If your mount isn't trained for war but chooses to fight with you aboard, you can just give the mount its head. You and your mount make separate initiative rolls. Because there are some full-round actions you cannot perform while your mount moves (see Parts Three and Four), you must delay until after your mount's turn to use such actions if your mount's turn in the initiative order comes before your own turn comes. Even then your mount's movements could keep you from performing your intended action. When it's finally your turn to act, you must succeed on a DC 10 Ride check to adjust your actions to fit your mount's uncontrolled movements. The check is a move action for you, but it does not provoke attacks of opportunity. (You're looking after yourself, not your mount.) If you fail, your mount's movements keep you from taking any actions this round. If you succeed, you can use a standard action. Just remember that you're allowing your mount to take you where it will, so your options might prove limited. ----------------------------- 2) No. [Donkeys] are too stupid to perform [the Aid Another] action. Edit: It may be argued that they could be taught a trick to use the action, but I'd argue against that, and in any event then their master would need to use a move action to handle the animal to do that. I might be a little more lenient and allow a gladiator using Speak With Animals to direct a donkey to Aid Another in combat (but not with skill checks). I'd say it's a pitlord's call -- some give animals the benefit of the doubt, and some don't.
Zevox 06-05-07, 07:20 PM	That may be, but good ol' Skip Williams had this to say in "Rules of the Game: All About Mounts (Pt. 5)": :banghead: Another example of that idiot contradicting core rules outright... the MM entries specifically say they just need to be taught to act as mounts, no diplomacy or wild empathy or "the mount acts on its own initiative" garbage to it. Anybody else think we should just ignore this? Zevox
Rauul 06-05-07, 07:26 PM	Telin said total CR, not EL. Big difference. Zevox So do I need to put my Corrupter in the shelf again?? Since CR dosen't equal ECL (as I have been told dozens of times).. I mean really is it So bad that a Charater don't want CR 8 monsters to animate.. the Lesser ones are more in Theme for him to have.. Don't care if he has to beat an CR 8 monster to get the corpses.. Just want to know the Rules here in CoCo.. BTW, how is Prebuffing different Undead/Cohorts for the different maps, any different from Mages leaveing spell slots open to be filled before they battle *eyes McJarvis's mage* At least with prebuffing.. the Opponent knows what they will face on a Specific map.. Example Prefight Actions Bring Gravedigger(always) Bring The Reaper (Cohort) (CITY) Bring Undead Centars (Plains) (Arena) Bring Undead Yeth's (Sewers) (Arena) Bring Undead Minotaur (Temple) Check Spell Components Check Scrolls Tactics Always Submitted
Rauul 06-05-07, 07:28 PM	:banghead: Another example of that idiot contradicting core rules outright... the MM entries specifically say they just need to be taught to act as mounts, no diplomacy or wild empathy or "the mount acts on its own initiative" garbage to it. Anybody else think we should just ignore this? Zevox Honestly... I would rather Ignore 99.9% of what skippy writes... but thats just me
Zevox 06-05-07, 07:33 PM	So do I need to put my Corrupter in the shelf again?? *shrugs* The rule Telin mentioned was apparently some unofficial one Cat mentioned over PM. At present, we have no actual rule restricting how many of any given ally type you can get in a miniquest (except for the now-defunct diplomacy allies) so long as they're not two different types of allies (and thus you'd have multiple goals for the quest), so you're fine for anything. BTW, how is Prebuffing different Undead/Cohorts for the different maps, any different from Mages leaveing spell slots open to be filled before they battle *eyes McJarvis's mage* At least with prebuffing.. the Opponent knows what they will face on a Specific map.. You can't fill unfilled slots before a battle. You can only do so between fights, before a fight has been rolled. Zevox
Zevox 06-05-07, 07:34 PM	Honestly... I would rather Ignore 99.9% of what skippy writes... but thats just me Trust me, that opinion is mutual. Zevox
TelinArtho 06-05-07, 07:50 PM	So do I need to put my Corrupter in the shelf again?? Since CR dosen't equal ECL (as I have been told dozens of times).. I mean really is it So bad that a Charater don't want CR 8 monsters to animate.. the Lesser ones are more in Theme for him to have.. Don't care if he has to beat an CR 8 monster to get the corpses.. Just want to know the Rules here in CoCo.. BTW, how is Prebuffing different Undead/Cohorts for the different maps, any different from Mages leaveing spell slots open to be filled before they battle *eyes McJarvis's mage* At least with prebuffing.. the Opponent knows what they will face on a Specific map.. Example Prefight Actions Bring Gravedigger(always) Bring The Reaper (Cohort) (CITY) Bring Undead Centars (Plains) (Arena) Bring Undead Yeth's (Sewers) (Arena) Bring Undead Minotaur (Temple) Check Spell Components Check Scrolls Tactics Always Submitted I don't know why you'd shelf him for the miniquest-allies "rule" that Cat mentioned to me. EL is encounter level. All I said was that a single miniquest could gain you no more EL worth of allies than the EL of the miniquest. This means that a miniquest where EL=ECL, you could potentially gain more allies than you could bring in a single fight. For instance, an EL6 miniquest could gain you a single CR6 creature, 2 CR4 creatures, 3 CR3 creatures or 4 CR2 creatures. Although it is an unstated rule (something I requested Cat to put down when I asked him for a ruling on the matter), I think it is a reasonable rule since it potentially gives you more allies than you can use at that ECL. In the above example - if the character where ECL6, then he couldn't bring in the CR6 creature, the 2 CR4 creatures or the 3 CR3 creatures at all, but could bring in 2 of the CR2 creatures at their leisure. As to the prebuffing per map - that will never happen. This would create an imbalance in allies because you could customize your allies to the maps that they would be useful in - thereby offsetting the hindrances of those maps. Picture Zax's allies - in the plains and arena map - he prebuffs the huge centipede - but on the others - he keeps it out because it would be hindered by the terrain too much. Likewise - he takes out his large allies in the sewers and puts in large amounts of medium allies that are cheap CR-wise. Since the current opinion seems to be that allies are too powerful - by giving this option to people with large farms of allies - would simply make them more powerful. In other words - even I don't think this would be a good idea.
Abyssal Stalker 06-06-07, 03:17 AM	@hogarth and Zevox: the RP in TAO is just hilarious :rofl:
Zevox 06-06-07, 03:32 AM	Okay, I don't normally bother posting things like this, but I figure theres plenty of you who'll appreciate it. Particularly those who dislike mounted combat. Ctrl+Alt+Del (http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/comic.php?d=20070606)'s latest comic. So much more funny for how many folks around here do just that in our battles. Zevox
TheMagister 06-06-07, 07:00 AM	Okay, I don't normally bother posting things like this, but I figure theres plenty of you who'll appreciate it. Particularly those who dislike mounted combat. Ctrl+Alt+Del (http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/comic.php)'s latest comic. So much more funny for how many folks around here do just that in our battles. Zevox :clap: I undestand how complicated it is to implement, but I TOTALLY wish we'd use the rule that allows your mount to be hit if you use it for cover. Every time I see the "ride for cover" action taken in a fight, my "that's not logical" alarm goes off.
Macbrea 06-06-07, 07:59 AM	They aren't that difficult to implement if you roll higher then the AC but lower then the AC+Cover. You hit cover. Anyways, yes, I have to agree... Hiding behind a horse is alittle silly when the horse could be killed outright by the blow.
hogarth 06-06-07, 08:41 AM	They aren't that difficult to implement if you roll higher then the AC but lower then the AC+Cover. You hit cover. Hypothetical situation: A horse is wearing full plate barding for an AC of 21, so a human commoner (+0 BAB) can't hit it except on a 20 (5% of the time). But if there's a human expert on the horse riding for cover (AC 10+4), now the commoner can hit the horse 20% of the time provided he aims at the rider. Makes sense to me! :D
McJarvis 06-06-07, 08:44 AM	Hypothetical situation: A horse is wearing full plate barding for an AC of 21, so a human commoner (+0 BAB) can't hit it except on a 20 (5% of the time). But if there's a human expert on the horse riding for cover (AC 10+4), now the commoner can hit the horse 20% of the time provided he aims at the rider. Makes sense to me! :D Only if the rider rides in such a way to force the horse to take the blow. We'll just assume the rider hides behind the unarmored part of the horse. [but I won't go into further details]
McJarvis 06-06-07, 08:49 AM	BTW, how is Prebuffing different Undead/Cohorts for the different maps, any different from Mages leaveing spell slots open to be filled before they battle *eyes McJarvis's mage* At least with prebuffing.. the Opponent knows what they will face on a Specific map.. Has it really been so long since someone did a regular straight-wizard build that all of the tricks I'm using seem strange and unusual to people all the time? o_O [Zodiac withstanding, of course] The proper correlation would be something like this: ECL 3 cleric has 6 CR 1 allies. [of various types] In fight one he brings one. It dies & the cleric casts hold person. Since the cleric doesn't have hold person anymore, he decides to bring a different type of CR 1 ally to his next fight. Note that my wizard doesn't prebuff conditional memorization of spells based on opponent or map-> he has chosen his spells that he will read up on in-between cycles. The only advantage to doing it this way is that I got to know which spells I used in my first fight before learning the new ones.
hogarth 06-06-07, 08:55 AM	Only if the rider rides in such a way to force the horse to take the blow. We'll just assume the rider hides behind the unarmored part of the horse. [but I won't go into further details] Next time someone's AC is too high to hit, I'll just try to hit the invisible pixie that's riding him for cover. At least I think there's an invisible pixie riding him... :P (Seriously, my point is that AC can represent armor as well as dodging blows -- using something as cover doesn't mean you can automatically pierce the armor portion of AC. You could probably come up with some more complex rule that more accurately represents the situation, but it's probably more trouble than it's worth.)
McJarvis 06-06-07, 08:57 AM	Next time someone's AC is too high to hit, I'll just try to hit the invisible pixie that's riding him for cover. At least I think there's an invisible pixie riding him... :P As long as an invisible non-existant pixie can make a DC 15 ride check....more since I'm guessing your opponent is an unwilling mount.
Macbrea 06-06-07, 09:31 AM	I will have to check what the optional rule about hitting cover says in the DMG. And anytime you target an invisible target that is not in the square you automaticly miss.
hogarth 06-06-07, 10:25 AM	The description for activating a power stone with Use Psionic Device says that the activator must have a high enough ability score in order to manifest the power (e.g. 11 for a 1st level power, 12 for a 2nd level power, etc.). Can that ability score be any one of Intelligence (like a psion), Wisdom (like a psychic warrior) or Charisma (like a wilder) no matter which list(s) the power is on? A psychic warrior couldn't manifest a 6th or higher level power that's not on his list, but every other power should be fair game, I would think. For reference, I'm thinking of Reginald Molehusband's cohort's fiendish hawk familiar; its Int and Cha are too low to manifest powers, but it has a Wisdom of 14. Can it use a power stone of Matter Agitation? My vote is yes (but I'm biased of course).
Yitzi 06-06-07, 10:27 AM	Next time someone's AC is too high to hit, I'll just try to hit the invisible pixie that's riding him for cover. At least I think there's an invisible pixie riding him... :P (Seriously, my point is that AC can represent armor as well as dodging blows -- using something as cover doesn't mean you can automatically pierce the armor portion of AC. You could probably come up with some more complex rule that more accurately represents the situation, but it's probably more trouble than it's worth.) How about: If you aim for the rider and hit above/at rider's AC+horse's armor+natural armor bonuses, and below rider's AC+cover, or if you exactly hit AC+cover-1, then it hits the horse. So if the horse has armor+natural armor of 0, you hit it by getting 0 to 3 more than the rider's pre-ride-for-cover AC, if armor+natural is 1, you hit it with 1 to 3 more, if 2 you hit with 2 or 3 more, and if 3 or more you hit with exactly 3 more than the rider's AC. IF it's with a touch attack, you always hit on 0-3 more than rider's AC. The idea is that it has the touch AC that would make it be hit as often as it acts as cover, and then add on armor+natural for actual AC.
McJarvis 06-06-07, 10:35 AM	How about: If you aim for the rider and hit above/at rider's AC+horse's armor+natural armor bonuses, and below rider's AC+cover, or if you exactly hit AC+cover-1, then it hits the horse. So if the horse has armor+natural armor of 0, you hit it by getting 0 to 3 more than the rider's pre-ride-for-cover AC, if armor+natural is 1, you hit it with 1 to 3 more, if 2 you hit with 2 or 3 more, and if 3 or more you hit with exactly 3 more than the rider's AC. IF it's with a touch attack, you always hit on 0-3 more than rider's AC. The idea is that it has the touch AC that would make it be hit as often as it acts as cover, and then add on armor+natural for actual AC. The problem is that you would just be making up rules at that point. The optional rules Mac is talking about in the DMG only refer to hitting the cover over the target itself. If you start messing with "You get a chance to hit the horse within that AC range, but only against his flat footed AC....etc, etc" than you're not only making up rules on top of an already optional rule-> but making it needlessly complex.
templer10 06-06-07, 10:45 AM	The description for activating a power stone with Use Psionic Device says that the activator must have a high enough ability score in order to manifest the power (e.g. 11 for a 1st level power, 12 for a 2nd level power, etc.). Can that ability score be any one of Intelligence (like a psion), Wisdom (like a psychic warrior) or Charisma (like a wilder) no matter which list(s) the power is on? A psychic warrior couldn't manifest a 6th or higher level power that's not on his list, but every other power should be fair game, I would think. For reference, I'm thinking of Reginald Molehusband's cohort's fiendish hawk familiar; its Int and Cha are too low to manifest powers, but it has a Wisdom of 14. Can it use a power stone of Matter Agitation? My vote is yes (but I'm biased of course). i would think you use the Stat relating to the powerlist- i.e. for wilder/psion use char/int, for psy - warrior - use wis so you can use that familiar to manifest up to level 4 psychic warrior powers but not psion/wilder powers since their primary manifesting ability is int/char.
Macbrea 06-06-07, 11:29 AM	Or just use the rules out of the DMG pg 24. VARIANT: STRIKING THE COVER INSTEAD OF A MISSED TARGET In ranged combat against a target that has cover, it may be important to know whether the cover was actually struck by an incoming attack that misses the intended target. First, determine if the attack roll would have hit the protected target without the cover. If the attack roll falls within a range low enough to miss the target with cover but high enough to strike the target if there had been no cover, the object used for cover was struck. If a creature is providing cover for another character and the attack roll exceeds the AC of the covering creature, the covering creature takes the damage intended for the target. If the covering creature has a Dexterity bonus to AC or a dodge bonus, and this bonus keeps the covering creature from being hit, then the original target is hit instead. The covering creature has dodged out of the way and didn’t provide cover after all. A covering creature can choose not to apply his Dexterity bonus to AC and/or his dodge bonus, if his intent is to try to take the damage in order to keep the covered character from being hit.
UserNamer 06-06-07, 11:58 AM	Alright, can I ride an intellegent mount, without thhe mount having a saddle, nor knowing any tricks? And what does that require me? ride? HA?
TelinArtho 06-06-07, 12:03 PM	Riding bareback is -5 to ride. An intelligent mount doesn't have tricks, but usually still requires training for combat - which is listed in the cost of the mount to begin with (see griffon's description for example). You can train it yourself - which is handle animal checks with a base DC +5 modifier over the regular training.
hogarth 06-06-07, 01:13 PM	i would think you use the Stat relating to the powerlist- i.e. for wilder/psion use char/int, for psy - warrior - use wis so you can use that familiar to manifest up to level 4 psychic warrior powers but not psion/wilder powers since their primary manifesting ability is int/char. Note that with this interpretation, a psion with 8 Wis and with the feats Expanded Knowledge (Claws of the Beast) and Imprint Stone could create a power stone of Claws of the Beast, but he would be unable to use it (which seems strange).
Zevox 06-06-07, 01:15 PM	Note that with this interpretation, a psion with 8 Wis and with the feats Expanded Knowledge (Claws of the Beast) and Imprint Stone could create a power stone of Claws of the Beast, but he would be unable to use it (which seems strange). A Psion who takes Expanded Knowledge now has the power he selected on his class list. Zevox
McJarvis 06-06-07, 01:16 PM	Note that with this interpretation, a psion with 8 Wis and with the feats Expanded Knowledge (Claws of the Beast) and Imprint Stone could create a power stone of Claws of the Beast, but he would be unable to use it (which seems strange). It should be expected that Expanded Knowledge would create such a situation, since it more or less plays around with power-lists. For these purposes, that psion would treat the Claws of the Beast as if it were on his powers list[since it is a power known, after all] Not sure if it's covered by RAW, but only about 50% of psionics-related questions _are_....
hogarth 06-06-07, 01:49 PM	A Psion who takes Expanded Knowledge now has the power he selected on his class list. Reread templer10's suggestion. He's saying that a power stone of Claws of the Beast should require 11 Wis to use (since it's a power stone of a psychic warrior power) regardless of whether it's on a given character's power list or not. And I disagree. Specifically, I'm wondering whether a character with 14 Wis, 6 Int and 8 Cha can use a power stone of Matter Agitation as long as he can pass a DC 21 UPD check. I would say yes -- the power is treated as being on his power list for activation purposes, and 14 Wis is enough to activate a level 1 power stone.
templer10 06-06-07, 01:53 PM	Reread templer10's suggestion. He's saying that a power stone of Claws of the Beast should require 11 Wis to use (since it's a power stone of a psychic warrior power) regardless of whether it's on a given character's power list or not. And I disagree. err that's not what i said- or what i meant anyway- i meant taht NORMALLY to use a psychic warrior powerstone you need the proper wis score and respectivly you need proper int/char to use powerstones for psion/wilder powers, but if you have expanded knowladge feat it is as peeps said is considered on your powerlist so you need that's class primary manifesting ability to use it.
Yitzi 06-06-07, 01:54 PM	I would say it needs 11 WIS to use, unless you got that power through Expanded knowledge, in which case you use the key ability of any manifesting class you have, and if you are (also) psionic from some non-class source (wild talent, psionic race, etc.), you can (also) use WIS.
hogarth 06-06-07, 01:56 PM	I would say it needs 11 WIS to use, unless you got that power through Expanded knowledge, in which case you can use either WIS or the key ability of any manifesting class you have. The problem is that a character with Use Psionic Device may not have a manifesting class -- can he use any key ability he wishes to?
McJarvis 06-06-07, 01:59 PM	The problem is that a character with Use Psionic Device may not have a manifesting class -- can he use any key ability he wishes to? Expanded Knowledge only changes an individual's powersknown & powerlist. The "standard" power-lists still apply, however. So if you have NO manifesting classes: Wis for Psi-war, Int/Cha for Psion/Wilder, Int for Disciplines....or the best of these three classifications.
Erithmu 06-06-07, 01:59 PM	The problem is that a character with Use Psionic Device may not have a manifesting class -- can he use any key ability he wishes to? It is covered in th UPD desciption: Emulate an ability score: your check -15 = stat for the relative ability score.
templer10 06-06-07, 02:10 PM	The problem is that a character with Use Psionic Device may not have a manifesting class -- can he use any key ability he wishes to? a person without a manifesting class cant get the requirmentes for expanded knowladge feat so the question is moot, you simply have to get the proper requirment in int/char to use a powerstone of the psion/wilder list. it's very similar to magic domain cleric needing High int/char to use arcane scrolls.
Yitzi 06-06-07, 02:27 PM	The problem is that a character with Use Psionic Device may not have a manifesting class -- can he use any key ability he wishes to? No, he has to use WIS in the case of a psiwarrior only power.
Rauul 06-06-07, 02:40 PM	No, he has to use WIS in the case of a psiwarrior only power. hmm funny, once Shadow gets Assassin Prestige class he was going to start dumping slots into Use Psionic Device and Use Magic Device, with never being a Psionic active charater and use his cha stat all day long on activating them.. Shrug.. the joys of being a bard
Macbrea 06-06-07, 02:41 PM	UPD isn't a bard or Assassin skill. Only Shaper, Elocater, Expert, Paragon Human
Rauul 06-06-07, 02:45 PM	UPD isn't a bard or Assassin skill. yea neither is is a Psi warrior skill... but go look in training hall for all the ones that cross classed it when it was pointed out that they need 1 point in UPD to use a powerstone... Where in reality.. as an assassin.. may just pick up a level of psion, telepath.. and then not worry about it..
McJarvis 06-06-07, 02:59 PM	yea neither is is a Psi warrior skill... but go look in training hall for all the ones that cross classed it when it was pointed out that they need 1 point in UPD to use a powerstone... You're thinking of psicraft.
Malither76 06-06-07, 06:36 PM	does dimensional anchor keep summoned creatures from being dismissed from dismissal, I know it doesn't keep them from disappearing at the end of duration.
Malither76 06-06-07, 06:44 PM	another question, does the caster get to chose the creature when casting lesser planar ally or normal planar ally, it says of deity's choice but how do we do that here?
Khaim 06-06-07, 06:52 PM	many items do not change weight at all (potions, wands, dorjes, wondrous items, etc) because they're "one size fits all" by the rules. Not by my reading. Sure, if you buy such an item for a small character it probably weighs the same, but that's not the question. This spell causes instant diminution of a humanoid creature, halving its height, length, and width and dividing its weight by 8. ... All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly reduced by the spell. So equipment has its weight divided by 8, just as the caster. Which just means that your encumbrance will almost certainly decrease rather than increase, as you would have it.
Khaim 06-06-07, 07:14 PM	another question, does the caster get to chose the creature when casting lesser planar ally or normal planar ally, it says of deity's choice but how do we do that here? I'm pretty sure we ignore that, just as most good DMs would. I mean maybe if it was important to the plot a DM might mess it up, but normally the cleric should be able to control their own spells, thank you very much.
Rauul 06-06-07, 07:24 PM	I'm pretty sure we ignore that, just as most good DMs would. I mean maybe if it was important to the plot a DM might mess it up, but normally the cleric should be able to control their own spells, thank you very much. Pretty much, as long as whats summoned is an outsider/extraplaner and of the same Alignment as your god... I personnel wouldn't allow a lawful charater summon a demon..
TelinArtho 06-06-07, 09:19 PM	The rules for LPA and that line of spells is spelled out in the Allies I section of the Rules of Gladius.
Zevox 06-06-07, 09:40 PM	So equipment has its weight divided by 8, just as the caster. Which just means that your encumbrance will almost certainly decrease rather than increase, as you would have it. No. The spell says the creature divides its weight by 8. It says nothing at all about the items. So we need to determine that based on what the items themselves weigh when made at the new size the creature has been reduced to. Besides, its ridiculously illogical for a small-size weapon (say) to weigh one thing when made that size, but less when magically reduced to that size instead. another question, does the caster get to chose the creature when casting lesser planar ally or normal planar ally, it says of deity's choice but how do we do that here? You're presumed to know the name of a specific outsider to summon yourself. Zevox
Khaim 06-06-07, 10:08 PM	Besides, its ridiculously illogical for a small-size weapon (say) to weigh one thing when made that size, but less when magically reduced to that size instead. Magic.
Yitzi 06-07-07, 12:25 AM	In any case you have a problem, as the way you're reading it, if a medium creature with a weapon is affected by reduce person, the weapon has its weight divided by 8, but if it were bought at that size it would have half the weight of the medium person's weapon. So you have to say that either 1. It does indeed have different weight if it was reduced magically as opposed to made that size, or 2. "All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly reduced by the spell" refers to the size reduction, but does not mean that the weight modifier is the same. I prefer the second option, as even with magic there is such a thing as needlessly complicated.
UserNamer 06-07-07, 01:34 AM	Hello, could someone please clarify this: Phacce has impossible skill ranks. Specifically, she can only put a sixth rank into a skill with the skill points from her third class, whichever one that is. However, she has both [4brb, 2sorc] in Craft: Poisonmaking and [4brb, 2drd] in Ride and Handle Animal. Furthermore, she does not have 4 SL next fight for her Sorcerer spells; she only has 4 SL total. Which, by the way, should be listed. Druid spells are somewhat suspect as well, although 2 SL for the second fight might be correct. Finally, it may have been the pitlord's fault, but the SL used in Fight 1 needs to have Druid or Sorcerer listed next to it. And also, Phacce has "read all scrolls" listed as a prebuff, but has neither spellcraft ranks nor the cantrip "read magic", and therefore cannot decipher scrolls. Couse I'm not sure these guys are right. Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12375444#post12375444)'s a link to my character
UserNamer 06-07-07, 01:44 AM	What action does it cost to take cover with a towershield? Or doesn't it take any, but you just can't attack?
Zevox 06-07-07, 03:03 AM	Hello, could someone please clarify this: Couse I'm not sure these guys are right. Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12375444#post12375444)'s a link to my character They are correct. You clearly have Barbarian as your first level, which means Druid or Sorcerer must be your second, at which level you can't put a total of more than 5 ranks in any skill. The spell level and scroll reading violations speak for themselves. Zevox
Malither76 06-07-07, 03:32 AM	ok, just want to clear things up on LPA and PA spells, I read the Rules under allies, So does that mean you can't use the spell to summon say a hound archon at level 7 when you normally could. You would have to wait until level 13 since the hound archon is 6HD with +5 level adj. is this how the spell is working?
UserNamer 06-07-07, 05:30 AM	They are correct. You clearly have Barbarian as your first level, which means Druid or Sorcerer must be your second, at which level you can't put a total of more than 5 ranks in any skill. The spell level and scroll reading violations speak for themselves. Zevox Does this has naything to do with it: Regardless of whether a skill is purchased as a class skill or a cross-class skill, if it is a class skill for any of your classes, your maximum rank equals your total character level + 3. My total character level is 3, so max ranks are 6 right? And what about the sl? why can't I have 4sl in the 2nd fight? I have 2sl per fight, I didn't use any in the 1st, so I have 4 in the 2nd right?
Sjiggie 06-07-07, 05:40 AM	Does this has naything to do with it: My total character level is 3, so max ranks are 6 right? Yes that is correct but your you also have to account for the level where you took the skills assuming you took the levels in order: Barbarian, Druid, Sorcerer you can´t invest 2 skill points as a druid in Handle animal and Ride for 6 ranks because you where only level 2 at the moment you invested those skill points and can have only max 5 ranks in them.
UserNamer 06-07-07, 05:45 AM	Then there is this rule: The maximum rank in a class skill is the character’s level + 3. If it’s a cross-class skill, the maximum rank is half of that number (do not round up or down). right? I'm trying to understand it, but I really don't.
Sjiggie 06-07-07, 06:11 AM	Yes but that rule applies to every level not just your starting level so every time you invest skillpoints you can´t invest more than your character level +3 so if we break it down for your character it looks like this Level 1 Max ranks: 4 4 skill points as barbarian into ride for 4 ranks no problem Level 2 Max ranks: 5 here you invested 2 skill points as a druid into ride for 6 ranks but because your only level 2 you can have a max of 5 ranks. Level 3 Max ranks: 6 Here you invested 2 sorcerer skill points into craft no problem you already had 4 ranks in it and with the 2 extra you have a total of 6 ranks wich is allowed as a 3rd level character understand it now?
hogarth 06-07-07, 06:58 AM	The spell level and scroll reading violations speak for themselves. The "read magic" violation is not a violation, as far as I know. You don't need to memorize (and cast) the cantrip "read magic" every week in order to cast from scrolls, you just need access to it (according to the Rules of Gladius".
Salrantol 06-07-07, 07:00 AM	The spell level and scroll reading violations speak for themselves.Actually, with the spell levels, Phacce has 4 total sorcerer spell levels, which is 2/fight. She didn't use any sorcerer spells in her first fight, so 2 carry over. 2 (2nd fight) + 2 (carryover) = 4. As far as druid spells, that list is incorrect. She has 2 total druid spell levels, which is 1 per fight, and used 0 in her first fight, so 1 carries over. 1 (2nd fight) + 1 (carryover) = 2. As far as scroll reading, she's a druid. Druids have read magic on their spell list, so she can be presumed to have done it in the past as a prefight action if it's listed as a prefight action, without prebuffing it every 3FC, so that's not a violation either. @Rauul: You might want to edit your summary block on Phacce's first fight. You have her down as spending 1 spell level, when she couldn't. The only spells she cast were reduce person, shield, and magic missile, and she knows none of them, so the reduce person had to be from the scrolls she carries.
Yitzi 06-07-07, 11:16 AM	Question: can you ride for cover against an attack you don't know is coming (flat-footed, hidden attacker, etc)?
McJarvis 06-07-07, 11:17 AM	Question: can you ride for cover against an attack you don't know is coming (flat-footed, hidden attacker, etc)? no
Zevox 06-07-07, 01:10 PM	Does this has naything to do with it: My total character level is 3, so max ranks are 6 right? Yes, but you have to account for the fact that you take those levels individually. You're not just born at level 3. So when your character was level 2, she was either a Barbarian 1/Sorcerer 1 or a Barbarian 1/Druid 1, at which point your maximum ranks in any one skill was 5. So its impossible to have 2 points from both of those classes in skills that both have 4 points from Barbarian. And what about the sl? why can't I have 4sl in the 2nd fight? I have 2sl per fight, I didn't use any in the 1st, so I have 4 in the 2nd right? Looks like you're mostly correct in this matter - your sheet is just very confusing due to not actually listing how many sorcerer spells you can cast total, or how many you have left, anywhere. But your 3FC section does say you used 1 spell level last fight - from what class it fails to specify, though whether thats a mistake of yours or your pitlord I'm not sure - which means one of those has less available than you have listed (either 3 sorcerer spells or 1 Druid spell, and if its the Druid spell, you should cross out or silver out the used spell). Zevox
UserNamer 06-07-07, 02:37 PM	Guys, thank you very much.
Yitzi 06-07-07, 03:29 PM	Question: Can you ready an action to charge 1X your movement? Normally a charge is an FRA (which can't be readied), but if you're restricted to making one move or standard action per round, you can charge with 1X your movement as a standard action. So does the restriction about not readying FRAs count as being limited to one move or standard action per round (I think no, but someone else claims yes, so I'm asking here).
McJarvis 06-07-07, 03:32 PM	Question: Can you ready an action to charge 1X your movement? Normally a charge is an FRA (which can't be readied), but if you're restricted to making one move or standard action per round, you can charge with 1X your movement as a standard action. So does the restriction about not readying FRAs count as being limited to one move or standard action per round (I think no, but someone else claims yes, so I'm asking here). When you ready an action you are not "restricted" to just a standard action-> in the same way that if you take a move action and then want to attack, you are not "restricted" to just a standard action. You just chose to split up your move/standard actions. The partial charge works in situations like being slowed or being staggered.
Korone 06-07-07, 04:05 PM	Second character is up. Would be grateful is anybody could search for errors in it, if any.
Yitzi 06-07-07, 04:07 PM	Question: If you are on a charging mount, can you take a move action in addition to the attack at the end of the charge, or does the charge count as a FRA for you as well as your mount?
TheMagister 06-07-07, 04:29 PM	Question: If you are on a charging mount, can you take a move action in addition to the attack at the end of the charge, or does the charge count as a FRA for you as well as your mount? I thought that the rider was also restricted by the full-round action that his mount was taking, but after reading the "Mounted Combat" section of the PHB, I'd have to say that I was wrong. "Your mount acts on your initiative as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move." "If you mount moves more than 5 feet, you can make only a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack." "If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge." "Likewise, you can take move actions normally, so that, for instance, you can load and fire a light crossbow in a round while your mount is moving." This stuff all points to the mount and rider acting seperately when dealing with "actions in a round". If the mount charges, it has to attack (or the action is not a charge -- it's a double move!). If the mount charges, the rider does not have to attack. So he can take actions normally. If one of those actions is an attack (an "attack action", not a "standard action"), then the remainder can be a free, swift, immediate, or move action. I don't see how else it could be interpreted. I'll bet Skip's made up something, though. :) TM
Yitzi 06-07-07, 04:34 PM	If the mount charges, it has to attack (or the action is not a charge -- it's a double move!) Does that mean that in if you fail the "fight with warhorse" ride check (DC 10) you can't charge while mounted?
TheMagister 06-07-07, 04:36 PM	It would certainly seem that way. If you can't convince the mount to attack, it can't charge. If it can't charge, then you can't either. Seems logical. Edit: How does Ride-by-attack fit in with alla this?
Usurpator 06-07-07, 04:44 PM	It would certainly seem that way. If you can't convince the mount to attack, it can't charge. If it can't charge, then you can't either. Seems logical. It seems logical, but when you figure out that a rider must halt at 10 ft. to make an attack with his lance (and cannot attack within 5 ft.) and most mounts can only attack within 5 ft. you can see it will be impossible for both a lance-bearing rider and a mount to attack at the end of a charge.... In practice, most charging mounts don't actually get to attack themselves If what you say is true, and the mount can't charge unless it can attack, then we can say goodby to ye faithful lance-charge.
Yitzi 06-07-07, 05:02 PM	But the lance-charge is explicitly mentioned...
TheMagister 06-07-07, 05:06 PM	It seems logical, but when you figure out that a rider must halt at 10 ft. to make an attack with his lance (and cannot attack within 5 ft.) and most mounts can only attack within 5 ft. you can see it will be impossible for both a lance-bearing rider and a mount to attack at the end of a charge.... In practice, most charging mounts don't actually get to attack themselves If what you say is true, and the mount can't charge unless it can attack, then we can say goodby to ye faithful lance-charge. THE RIDER IS NOT ACTUALLY CHARGING! He's simply making an attack at the end of his mount's move. Now, he get's all the advantages and disadvantages of the charge (dbl lance damage, +2 to attacks, -2 to AC, etc.) except it doesn't cost him a full-round action. He simply has to wait for the mount to get there and make an attack. He's only allowed a single attack action (no full attacks), but that's the only action that's "charged to his account".
Salrantol 06-07-07, 05:11 PM	Second character is up. Would be grateful is anybody could search for errors in it, if any.You appear to have the wrong caster level on some of your potions. You have them listed as CL 3, but paid for them like they were CL 1.
hogarth 06-07-07, 05:14 PM	He simply has to wait for the mount to get there and make an attack. He's only allowed a single attack action (no full attacks), but that's the only action that's "charged to his account". Folks -- most of this stuff is spelled out fairly clearly in Skip's "All About Mounts" article. TM, one thing he specifies is that if a mount spends a move action moving, then the rider spends a move action moving, too. So a character can't perform a full-round action (like escaping from a net, say) while his horse moves 60'. Half of the stuff he says in the article isn't really supported by the rules as written, but I was under the impression that we use the RotG articles as house rules (if need be).
Yitzi 06-07-07, 05:22 PM	Unless it explicitly contradicts a rule in core: You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a -4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed), at a -8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally
Usurpator 06-07-07, 05:30 PM	THE RIDER IS NOT ACTUALLY CHARGING! He's simply making an attack at the end of his mount's move. Well, his mount ends his move 5 ft. away from his opponent as it must if it wants to charge. At this distance the rider can't attack with his 10 ft. reach lance, and thus cannot attack "at the end of his mount's move". However you look at it, by the book, you cannot attack with your lance. Yeah, of course that's stupid and unintended, just sloppy rules.... Two solutions: A. The mount ends it's move at 10 ft., allowing the rider to attack with the lance. B. The mount ends it's move at 5 ft., but the rider is allowed to attack 'on the move' as soon as it get's into reach of it's target. Both break the rules.
Usurpator 06-07-07, 05:39 PM	How about: Hedges: These 4' tall thick, leafy plants are marked as green lines. They count as squares of a special heavy undergrowth that completely blocks LOS. Ranged and melee attacks can be directed through the hedge, but the defender is considered to have a measure of concealment. Two medium or smaller creatures attacking one another through the hedge ut have to deal with a 50% miss chance (total concealment) because they cannot see one another. A large or larger creature being attacked by a medium creature through the hedge (and vice versa) has normal concealment (20% miss chance). A large creature being attacked by another large creature through the hedge has only normal concealment (20% miss chance). Two creatures larger than Large size attacking one another ignore the hedge completely. Medium-size and smaller creatures can jump over the hedges with a DC 16 Jump check (high jump with 20 ft. running start), or push through the hedges as a full-round action. Large and bigger creatures consider it difficult terrain only. Don't you think that that is simpler, and more realistic? Hedges aren't gonna stop a guy with a sword, or even a determined guy weilding nothing but wearing armor. Heck, I don't wanna give too much away, but I crashed through a REALLY thick hedge one time while running from the cops. It was a few feet thick, and it still only took me a few seconds to make it through. I lost skin, but I didn't go to jail. ;) Edited some stuff in. TM Sure I agree with you that hedges are a bit stupid now. But I tried to make it resemble the current rules closely. Last time I was reprimanded from making 'rules improvements' when I was 'updating the text'. I tried to keep that to a minimum this time. I think a 4 ft. of hedge that completely blocks LOS is a bit nonsense, like of people can't look over a 4ft. hedge. A solid hedge will certainly stop a sword blow, I'm more inclined to treat it as soft cover for anyone medium-size or smaller within 5 ft., and ditch the whole improved cover thing....
TheMagister 06-07-07, 05:46 PM	Well, his mount ends his move 5 ft. away from his opponent as it must if it wants to charge. At this distance the rider can't attack with his 10 ft. reach lance, and thus cannot attack "at the end of his mount's move". However you look at it, by the book, you cannot attack with your lance. Yeah, of course that's stupid and unintended, just sloppy rules.... Two solutions: A. The mount ends it's move at 10 ft., allowing the rider to attack with the lance. B. The mount ends it's move at 5 ft., but the rider is allowed to attack 'on the move' as soon as it get's into reach of it's target. Both break the rules. Not really (as long as the mount is large). Look: http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=arena;a=Name,M,26,50;b= Name,L,27,50;c=Name,M,28,50 Green is 10' away from Red, and Blue is 5' away from Green. This fulfills both conditions.
TheMagister 06-07-07, 05:49 PM	Sure I agree with you that hedges are a bit stupid now. But I tried to make it resemble the current rules closely. Last time I was reprimanded from making 'rules improvements' when I was 'updating the text'. I tried to keep that to a minimum this time. I think a 4 ft. of hedge that completely blocks LOS is a bit nonsense, like of people can't look over a 4ft. hedge. A solid hedge will certainly stop a sword blow, I'm more inclined to treat it as soft cover for anyone medium-size or smaller within 5 ft., and ditch the whole improved cover thing.... So make it a 5' tall hedge (to keep it in round DnD-palatable numbers). Also, you can stab with a sword. I don't think a hedge'd stop a stab. It'd completely foil an axe or a club (though I'd let an axe wielder chop his way through as a full-round action, if I were DMing at tabletop). TM
Usurpator 06-07-07, 05:53 PM	So make it a 5' tall hedge (to keep it in round DnD-palatable numbers). I always prefer to remove numbers altogether in such situations. Technically, my medium-size 4 ft. 5 in. tall dwarf could not fight over a 5 ft. tall hedge, but my 6 ft. 8 inch. tall barbarian could.... I think hedges in the city are not just for decorative purposes, they are designed to keep people out of the courtyards, hence the (soft) cover. But I rather change the city map altogether. What proper city has lots of houses with big courtyards and hedges in it's center? Much of the real estate in the city map is also wasted. And climbing usually results in people not being able to reach each other. Maps could be so much more interesting really.
Usurpator 06-07-07, 05:56 PM	Not really (as long as the mount is large). Look: http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=arena;a=Name,M,26,50;b= Name,L,27,50;c=Name,M,28,50 Green is 10' away from Red, and Blue is 5' away from Green. This fulfills both conditions. You're one with your mount and completely share it's square, you're not a separate square on top of the mount, and you can't 'move on your mount' to determine that square to your advantage. What you are suggesting also has as result that the person represented by your red dot can't attack the rider with a weapon that has only 5 ft. reach, since the rider (if he is allowed to be considered separate from the mount) is not reachable by his weapon. As I said, you can't do it without breaking some rules.
TheMagister 06-07-07, 06:11 PM	I thought that I read somewhere that for simplicity's sake you share your mount's space. Yep, right there in mounted combat. If there's a rule being broken, it's the rule that says that only a creature three sizes smaller/bigger can share the space of another creature. Regardless, a player would be silly to declare, "I'm occupying the space 10' away from my opponent, so he can't attack me without a reach weapon!" The DM should blue-bolt him right then and there (old 2nd Ad reference). If the rider can attack the defender, then the defender can attack the rider. I'm too tired for this. It's been a long day at work. Sorry I'm not up to the debate. I'll be checking in throughout the next 7 days, but I won't really be "on", you know? Ya'll have fun, and don't forget to turn out the lights when you leave! ;)
Zevox 06-07-07, 06:48 PM	I thought that I read somewhere that for simplicity's sake you share your mount's space. Thats precisely what Usurpator was referring to - you share the mount's space, you don't occupy just part of its space. You're both basically one creature space-wise. Folks -- most of this stuff is spelled out fairly clearly in Skip's "All About Mounts" article. TM, one thing he specifies is that if a mount spends a move action moving, then the rider spends a move action moving, too. So a character can't perform a full-round action (like escaping from a net, say) while his horse moves 60'. Half of the stuff he says in the article isn't really supported by the rules as written, but I was under the impression that we use the RotG articles as house rules (if need be). Most of the stuff in those articles is directly contradictory to the rules as written. The rule you mentioned included - the rules explicitly say that the mount's movement does not cost the rider their action. Quite frankly, I ignore things Skip says that display that level of idiocy. Second character is up. Would be grateful is anybody could search for errors in it, if any. Salrantol is right about your CLW and SoF potions - they're marked as CL 3, but paid for as CL 1. You have too many potions. At level 3, the expendable cap is 450 gp, and you have 1,350 gp worth of potions. Note that your tanglefoot bag does not fall under this cap (it applies only to potions, psionic tattoos, scrolls, and powerstones. Tip: get that guy a bow, preferably a composite longbow. Javelins just are not good ranged weapons here - too short range, too costly to get a decent number of. You haven't marked the cost of your equipment outside of the expendables. By my count, you can't afford all that - +1 Breastplate 1,500 gp, armor spikes 50 gp, 10 MW Javelins 3,010 gp, MW Greataxe 320 gp, Spiked Gauntlet 5 gp, Silver Holy Symbol 25 gp, Tanglefoot Bag 50 gp, 110 gp for those two crafting tools, plus 1,350 gp of potions is a total of 6,420 gp, and at level 3 you start with 3,000 gp. Way too much. You could have self-crafted the spiked gauntlet, but that only saves you 2.5 gp - no help at all. Also, you need to list the required skills (Spot, Listen, Hide, Move Silently, Climb, Balance, and Jump) on your sheet. This is for pitlord ease, since most of those skills show up often in arena fights, and the rest could show up in certain maps. Another tip: you probably shouldn't take Weapon Focus with how few feats you have. Theres so many better feats you could take. Improved Sunder, for instance, would go great with your high strength and greataxe weapon - craft an adamantine greataxe later and you'll be sundering everything in your reach with ease. Oh, and your flat-footed AC should be 19. You have Uncanny Dodge, you don't lose your dex to AC when flat-footed. Zevox
Yitzi 06-07-07, 06:58 PM	Or you might just want to say "as normal" and then list immobilized AC (which uncanny dodge doesn't help with).
Korone 06-07-07, 07:15 PM	You appear to have the wrong caster level on some of your potions. You have them listed as CL 3, but paid for them like they were CL 1. What's the chance in cost difference when the CL raise ? The SRD doesn't mention anything about this. You have too many potions. At level 3, the expendable cap is 450 gp, and you have 1,350 gp worth of potions. Note that your tanglefoot bag does not fall under this cap (it applies only to potions, psionic tattoos, scrolls, and powerstones. Is the cap 450gp per fight or all three fight in a row? You haven't marked the cost of your equipment outside of the expendables. By my count, you can't afford all that (+1 Breastplate 1,500 gp, armor spikes 50 gp, 10 MW Javelins 3,010 gp, MW Greataxe 320 gp, Spiked Gauntlet 5 gp, Silver Holy Symbol 25 gp, Tanglefoot Bag 50 gp, 110 gp for those two crafting tools, plus 1,350 gp of potions is a total of 6,420 gp, and at level 3 you start with 3,000 gp. Way too much. You could have self-crafted the spiked gauntlet, but that only saves you 2.5 gp - no help at all. All armor/weapons are self-crafted. The spiked breastplate would be 1,150gp, assuming it got enchanted later. Got lost with the javelins.. I thought they were treated as munitions. My bad. Right there it removes 3,000gp. MW greataxe 160gp. Spiked Gauntlet 2.5gp. Tip: get that guy a bow, preferably a composite longbow. Javelins just are not good ranged weapons here - too short range, too costly to get a decent number of. I barely see javelin as costly, costing only 1gp each.. unless you get them masterwork. Range is short, but the damage is greater. Although, your idea is taken into consideration.
Zevox 06-07-07, 07:26 PM	What's the chance in cost difference when the CL raise ? The SRD doesn't mention anything about this. Actually, it does. Look up the rules for creating potions. The cost is 50 x caster level x spell level. So for your SoF or CLW potions at CL 3, 150 gp each. Is the cap 450gp per fight or all three fight in a row? On how much you can own at any given time. Since you can't buy new ones mid-cycle, you could say for all three fights, yes. All armor/weapons are self-crafted. Impossible. You only have a +7 modifier on both, and the DC to craft masterwork items is 20. You use take 10 for crafting, so you can't make anything masterwork yet. I barely see javelin as costly, costing only 1gp each.. unless you get them masterwork. Range is short, but the damage is greater. Although, your idea is taken into consideration. Masterwork is what I was refering to. But what do you mean they do more damage? They do 1d6+str damage, but a composite longbow can do 1d8+str damage, provided you buy one designed for that strength rating (a MW Composite Longbow for str+5 would cost 900 gp, make it regular rather than MW and its just 600 gp). Zevox
Korone 06-07-07, 07:34 PM	Missed the part about the masterwork craft DC, my bad. Look like I'll redo pretty much all his equipment. Well, the javelin do more damage initially, automaticaly adding the Str bonus to damage without having to spend a load of money. Thanks for pointing all this.
Yitzi 06-07-07, 09:09 PM	Question: does ride-by attack allow you to go through the target of the charge, or is it only if extending the straight line will not go through the enemy?
Vathelokai 06-07-07, 09:59 PM	Question: can a wizard use the planar binding spell to summon an ally, the same way the clerics can use planar ally? I remember being discussed, but not the conclusion.
templer10 06-07-07, 10:38 PM	question - maybe i didnt understand it before but do i need to make a DC 10 ride check every tiime i want the mount to attack while iam on it?
Rauul 06-07-07, 10:42 PM	Question: can a wizard use the planar binding spell to summon an ally, the same way the clerics can use planar ally? I remember being discussed, but not the conclusion. I'm not an expert... but i would have to say no... Planar ally= cohort(works for a fee), Planar binding = servitude (works it's 1 service and is free)
Salrantol 06-07-07, 11:32 PM	Actually, it does. Look up the rules for creating potions. The cost is 50 x caster level x spell level. So for your SoF or CLW potions at CL 3, 150 gp each.Which reminds me--WHY would you even bother to get a CL3 CLW potion? It's 2 hp more than a CL1 CLW potion, but costs 3 times as much?!
Malither76 06-08-07, 12:42 AM	ok, just want to clear things up on LPA and PA spells, I read the Rules under allies, So does that mean you can't use the spell to summon say a hound archon at level 7 when you normally could. You would have to wait until level 13 since the hound archon is 6HD with +5 level adj. is this how the spell is working? bump, looking for clarification
Zevox 06-08-07, 02:59 AM	Question: can a wizard use the planar binding spell to summon an ally, the same way the clerics can use planar ally? I remember being discussed, but not the conclusion. I was the one that brought that up. Telin did some research at the time and came up with some suggestions for how to work it here (no, not the same as Planar Ally - the two are manifestly different mechanically, if similar thematically), but we didn't pursue it very far or get anything officially set down. I was only looking for general ideas of how it would work at the time anyway. I'm sure either myself or Telin could dig that up for you if you'd like. Wasn't that long ago - should be in this tavern even, from just before I activated Kathren. Zevox
Zevox 06-08-07, 03:01 AM	question - maybe i didnt understand it before but do i need to make a DC 10 ride check every tiime i want the mount to attack while iam on it? Correct. Of course, any decent mounted warrior should have sufficient ride skill to auto-succeed on that. It only takes a +9. Zevox
Zevox 06-08-07, 03:10 AM	I was the one that brought that up. Telin did some research at the time and came up with some suggestions for how to work it here (no, not the same as Planar Ally - the two are manifestly different mechanically, if similar thematically), but we didn't pursue it very far or get anything officially set down. I was only looking for general ideas of how it would work at the time anyway. I'm sure either myself or Telin could dig that up for you if you'd like. Wasn't that long ago - should be in this tavern even, from just before I activated Kathren. Zevox Found it already (search function is so nice to have :D ). Page 22 of this tavern: Query: How would the Planar Binding line of spells work around here? Theres a number of checks that need to be rolled for it to work, and no preset info for how much to offer called creatures/how to adjudicate the potential bonuses the charisma check. You can add a diagram to the magic circle to get rid of the SR issue, but theres still the will save, charisma check, and opposed charisma check to deal with. Would you simply have the pitlord roll these before the battle? Something else? How would we work the opposed charisma check/rewards offered to the creature? I ask because I'm looking at it as a far-future option for my abjurer Kathren (she could leave slots of the appropriate level open and use the spell if her leadership cohort is killed in her first or second fights). We've worked out how Planar Ally spells work around here, so how about its arcane counterpart? Zevox First off, from my own experience I will tell you that LPA is turning out to be a not-so useful spell when compared to the relative power/ease of use of diplomacy allies. LPB and its other spells will likely have the same mechanic as LPA except you don't necessarily need to restrict the alignment to within two steps of your own. However, it would still require the diplomacy checks that we have in LPA to adjust the friendliness. However, without the cost-efficiency of the thaumaturgist - I think you'll find it is extremely expensive. Haven't looked too much into the spell itself so I might be incorrect on a few things here. I don't think the diplomacy checks we use for Planar Ally spells should be used with Planar Binding - it specifically gives opposed charisma checks as the way to decide whether a creature accepts your offer (with you getting between +0 and +6 bonus to the check depending on the nature of the offer). It doesn't have to like the offer at all - remember that the Planar Binding spells trap the creature they call, unlike Planar Ally which just calls it and lets you bargain with it. Zevox Okay - I've looked over the spell and I think there's two ways to handle it: 1. Use the spell as is and restrict it with the 3FC and very specific conditions on what merits what bonus to the Cha check. In this case, the pitlord of the first fight of the cycle would need to roll the needed checks before the fight is run to determine whether the ally is available for the cycle. You would need to strike Magic Circle against Evil (or appropriate alignment) and Lesser Planar Binding off of your alloted spells - meaning you use 7 SLs of your allotment for week 1. All this for an ally you never guarantee you gain. For the cha check - I would suggest the CR of the potential ally squared times 100 per +1 bonus. So a CR3 ally would cost an additional 3*3*100 = 900*bonus to get a bonus. +6 on the check would be 5400gp (just a suggestion obviously - someplace to start) 2. Write up specific CoCo rules for the LPB and series spells to be handled in a "reasonable" way. This would probably involve a more generic list of costs associated with it, but it would be custom just for the spell and for the potential results. I had to lobby for a few weeks to get the LPA rules ironed out and resolved and I still feel they are vastly inferior to the diplomacy allies for a number of reasons. Kraegin uses them only because I didn't want to use diplomacy allies with him. After he is unfrozen though - he will probably gain a diplomacy ally until he gains his planar ally. Pah, thats because anything short of Leadership is inferior to Diplomacy allies around here. They're cheap, use CR instead of ECL in all cases, can be advanced/customized/made elite for fairly little gp and some credits, lack the weaknesses most other ally-obtaining methods have (e.g. animate dead allies are vulnerable to many undead-controlling spells and cleric/paladin/blackguard turn/rebuke undead abilities)... yeah, except leadership, none of our other methods of obtaining allies measure up to them. (In Response to Telin's option #1) Sounds reasonable enough to me. Perhaps a little much on the gp cost though. Take out the squaring issue perhaps - so a +6 vs a CR 3 ally costs instead 300*6 = 1,800 gp? Hm, still sounds expensive for a 1-time thing, especially with an ally of that low a CR, but then again that is the max bonus you can get. One thing though - this shouldn't need to be done in the first fight of the cycle if the player doesn't want to. Like I said, my own instance would be that Kathren would leave a 3rd and 5th/6th/8th level slot open to potential fill with a PB spell and Magic Circle and use in fight 2/3 if her cohort died. Zevox Zevox
Usurpator 06-08-07, 03:23 AM	New idea: Staggered league activations. Since I see people already wanting the ECL 10 League to open up, and we often have very few contestants at several of the leagues, how about staggering them. ECL 3+4,5,6 week one? ECL 3+7,8,9,10 week two? That way we can concentrate active gladiators a bit more. Less rematches, less mandatory monster fights.
Zevox 06-08-07, 03:29 AM	I'd find that far too annoying, personally. I happen to like being able to choose when to activate my characters based on my own schedules. I don't think theres any justifiable reason to close down leagues on a regular basis. Zevox
Usurpator 06-08-07, 03:35 AM	I'd find that far too annoying, personally. I happen to like being able to choose when to activate my characters based on my own schedules. I don't think theres any justifiable reason to close down leagues on a regular basis. Zevox Dude, I just gave you two good reasons. Without enough active people having gladiators in the higher leagues in the CoCo, this will only get worse the further down the leagues we will get. I happen to like to choose when to activate certain characters too. But if there no one (or the same one) to fight in the league, what's the point really?
Salrantol 06-08-07, 07:49 AM	Can a Chaos Beast (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersBtoC.html#chaos-beast) use any magic items? I suppose it could be ruled that they've always got a neck or a finger or whatever somewhere to wear a cloak or amulet or ring or something, but otherwise I'd find it far-fetched at best.
NiQil 06-08-07, 07:56 AM	New idea: Staggered league activations. Since I see people already wanting the ECL 10 League to open up, and we often have very few contestants at several of the leagues, how about staggering them. ECL 3+4,5,6 week one? ECL 3+7,8,9,10 week two? That way we can concentrate active gladiators a bit more. Less rematches, less mandatory monster fights. I would also not be in favor of this change. We already have plans in place to join the higher leagues together so that we have 2 ECLs in the same league, and it is possible that this may be extended downward as well. Also, if you only have characters at a certain ECL, and that ECL is not open under your proposal, are we now saying that a person just can't play that week? Bad idea, in my opinion.
Macbrea 06-08-07, 08:24 AM	I will be the first to admit it. I set my characters active by which characters are active in a League. Example: This early this week Torel was the only person active in League 8. I looked at my characters and choose to activate both Relanex and Izumi. With the assumption that the spare would get a monster fight. Vath turned around and activated Antalya on Wednesday. This resulted in an even league. Had Antalya been active earlier in the week. I probably would have activated Lars and Yorick for the week. And let Torel fight the were-porpoise. As it stands, I forced a fight between my characters and theirs. I am fine with the Leagues being combined as 3, 4, [5 & 6], [7 & 8], [9 & 10], [11 & 12], [13 & 14], ect. I also propose that monster fights in the higher levels be made three characters on one monster. Instead of one character versus one monster. The monsters at that level can be silly powerful versus a single character.
hogarth 06-08-07, 10:29 AM	New idea: Staggered league activations. Since I see people already wanting the ECL 10 League to open up, and we often have very few contestants at several of the leagues, how about staggering them. ECL 3+4,5,6 week one? ECL 3+7,8,9,10 week two? That way we can concentrate active gladiators a bit more. Less rematches, less mandatory monster fights. My current main arena characters (Treetall and Reginald -- Kilpquabjeg is on a campaign) are both about to turn level 7. By your suggestion, I'd be forced to advance them half as quickly as they are now (which doesn't seem fun to me). And if I miss a week (hey, it happens), then that's three weeks of forced non-participation. :(
Usurpator 06-08-07, 10:33 AM	Had Antalya been active earlier in the week. I probably would have activated Lars and Yorick for the week. And let Torel fight the were-porpoise. As it stands, I forced a fight between my characters and theirs. I understand what you mean. I think I'm going to do something like this as well, activate or inactivate characters depending on what other characters are active, since I dislike getting a forced monster fight. Currently I have like 5 gladatiors at ECL 5, I don't want a monster fight, so I'm not going to activate one or two PCs if no opponents are available. Last time I activated two characters (without scouting my opposition), and only later checked the league and saw only Zodiac was active. Which meant that I would get one monster fight by default. Now what am I going to do? Move one of my characters to inactive? What character should I choose? The one least likely to win? Maybe if I wanted to cheat (and with 5 characters available) I could just activate the character best able to beat Zodiac. This is a problem with leagues that have very few people active, you sort of know if you're going to get a fight and against who. The sparsely populated leagues might be (in effect) reduced to challenge matches or voluntary monster matches. Also, if multiple people are going to 'scout' for their opponents, we might get the situation that two people wanting to activate a character at a certain ECL8 don't because neither sees any opponent active. I'm very happy with the ECL 3 league, because there are so many characters active. You never know who you are going to face, and have very small odds of getting a monster fight. Leagues with more active characters work better and are more fun.
Usurpator 06-08-07, 10:37 AM	My current main arena characters (Treetall and Reginald -- Kilpquabjeg is on a campaign) are both about to turn level 7. By your suggestion, I'd be forced to advance them half as quickly as they are now (which doesn't seem fun to me). And if I miss a week (hey, it happens), then that's three weeks of forced non-participation. :( Well, if the goal is more important to you than the journey, than I understand why that wold be a problem for you. For me the journey is more important than the goal, and I don't have any need for my gladiators speeding through the leagues by constantly fighting monsters or the same opponents. In such cases I would choose to not activate those gladiators. I'm not doing this to have my gladiators reach ECL 20, I'm doing this to have fun during my trip to ECL 20. EDIT: CoCo is not a race to ECL20 you know? Most people here have retired (or PCs retired) long before they have any hope of reaching level 20. Current calculations say you need an average of 5 fights to reach next level. At 1 fight a week, you need 2 years two reach ECL 20 (assuming you can fight every week, and no fights are held over). I'd rather have fun fights and do three years of reaching ECL20, then speed towards it just fighting monsters and the same opponents.
hogarth 06-08-07, 10:48 AM	Well, if the goal is more important to you than the journey, than I understand why that wold be a problem for you. That's not exactly how I'd put it. The point is that I like to concentrate on playing one characters at a time to see how they develop. Your system is forcing people to use two different characters if they want to play every week for what seems like a very small benefit to me. Currently we get N fights per week, scattered across all ECLs. I'm guessing that a forced split might result in N fights on the weeks where low-level characters are allowed to fight and maybe N/2 fights on the weeks where only higher level characters are allowed (since not everyone has higher level characters). I could be wrong though.
Yitzi 06-08-07, 10:55 AM	Wait, how is closing down leagues going to solve the problem of not enough people per league? I can see how combining will help, but a league with 3 people won't have more gladiators if it only runs half the time.
Usurpator 06-08-07, 12:04 PM	That's not exactly how I'd put it. The point is that I like to concentrate on playing one characters at a time to see how they develop. Your system is forcing people to use two different characters if they want to play every week for what seems like a very small benefit to me. Currently we get N fights per week, scattered across all ECLs. I'm guessing that a forced split might result in N fights on the weeks where low-level characters are allowed to fight and maybe N/2 fights on the weeks where only higher level characters are allowed (since not everyone has higher level characters). I could be wrong though. You are right. I agree that my proposed solution is less than ideal. I would love to have a better option than closing leagues. But currently we already have people changing their activations based on other perceived activations of others, a practice may already develop before we make any rule. We can do a 3+4+6+8+10 and a 3+5+7+9+11 split, or something like that. But I'm open to entirely other solution. Just signaling a potential problem with leagues thinning out at the higher ECL's.
Usurpator 06-08-07, 12:08 PM	Wait, how is closing down leagues going to solve the problem of not enough people per league? I can see how combining will help, but a league with 3 people won't have more gladiators if it only runs half the time. There are few leagues with 3 people, and that is not the problem. I have five gladiators in the ECL5 league. I currently have about 6 potential opponents (gladiators from active players), but those players also have other characters. If I activate my ECL 5 gladiators, and they activate their ECL7, we might both end up without a fight. Either they should activate their ECL 5's, or I should activate my ECL 7's. We could of course arrange that we activate the same ECL characters through a 'gentlemens agreement by PM' but to me that starts to smell of arranged fights, which is expressly not the purpose of the current system.
TelinArtho 06-08-07, 12:18 PM	You are right. I agree that my proposed solution is less than ideal. I would love to have a better option than closing leagues. But currently we already have people changing their activations based on other perceived activations of others, a practice may already develop before we make any rule. We can do a 3+4+6+8+10 and a 3+5+7+9+11 split, or something like that. But I'm open to entirely other solution. Just signaling a potential problem with leagues thinning out at the higher ECL's. The problem that I think you are facing Usurpator is not so much the smaller sized leagues once you get out of ECL3, but rather that not everyone has as many characters at a particular ECL as you do at one of them. My suggestion is to activate one or two of them exclusively for a few weeks until they move up to the next level. Once there - you should have them more spread out. This has the side benefit of enabling some of the lower ECL characters to catch up to the currently Usurpator-crowded ECL to give you other opponents. The fact of the matter is - if you have a lot of characters active, you increase the possibility of getting a monster fight because of a lack of an opponent. As a corrolary to this - closing off certain ECLs on a alternating basis doesn't help fill out the other leagues at all, unless - because of this - people start creating characters at the other ECLs in order to compensate - which is very credit expensive. Since the credit expenditure for characters is more often to start characters at higher levels because of their relative weakness at early levels (and not because they want to have a character at every ECL so they can guarantee to have a fight in a given week), I'm not really sure this benefits anything except make the people who don't have enough credits feel like they are being shut out from higher ECL play. The single best way to get more people active at a given ECL is to promote staying within the community for an extended period of time, and to try to recruit more people to come here and stay. Currently - that is the biggest issue facing CoCo today.
Yitzi 06-08-07, 12:23 PM	So how about we switch back and forth "on leagues", but it's legal to activate characters in "off leagues" to fight, so long as all eligible (not held over or in prison, etc.) characters in the on leagues are also activated (including full activity). So in the 3+4,5,6 week, someone can activate an ECL 10 character to fight so long as all characters of theirs below ECL 7 are also activated (to fight or to do a full activity). Also, any off league with only 1 character activated should be set to not fight, rather than a monster fight (otherwise sparsely populated leagues will too often have monster fights in the off weeks). Finally, whether you take that suggestion or not, I think even-numbered as opposed to odd-numbered (with 3 and maybe 4 in both groups) is a better way of splitting it up than lower ECL/higher ECL, since someone with characters only in odd numbered ECLs is less likely than someone with no characters above ECL 6 (plus that means every week we get to see the higher leagues duke it out).
Zevox 06-08-07, 01:13 PM	Dude, I just gave you two good reasons. Without enough active people having gladiators in the higher leagues in the CoCo, this will only get worse the further down the leagues we will get. I happen to disagree. I don't see those as a problem, I see those as the unavoidable consequence of the relatively small community we have here. It seems to me this is precisely the sort of thing we have monster fights (and, incidentally, FFAs and Inter-League fights) to fix, which makes me think the whole reason you're suggesting this is due to not wanting to deal with those (the monster fights, anyway), and from that perspective, something I think is a bad idea to begin with looks even worse. Personally, I'm fine with the leagues other than 3 & 10 being relatively small now. Until/unless we get more members and they start leveling characters, thats how its going to be. So you can scout the competition ahead of time - thats nothing illegal. I do it even with the ECL 3 league. Always have. Just because its easier to guess who you'll face in smaller leagues doesn't make it a problem. Zevox
Zevox 06-08-07, 01:17 PM	Can a Chaos Beast (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersBtoC.html#chaos-beast) use any magic items? I suppose it could be ruled that they've always got a neck or a finger or whatever somewhere to wear a cloak or amulet or ring or something, but otherwise I'd find it far-fetched at best. Chaos Beasts have a treasure entry of "none", so they can't even get items to begin with. Zevox
Yitzi 06-08-07, 04:35 PM	Currently we get N fights per week, scattered across all ECLs. I'm guessing that a forced split might result in N fights on the weeks where low-level characters are allowed to fight and maybe N/2 fights on the weeks where only higher level characters are allowed (since not everyone has higher level characters). I could be wrong though. And even if it's even/odd, it will be something like .9N or .8N each week, since some people do use all their characters. Hence my suggestion of allowing characters in off-leagues to fight so long as all on-league characters of that person are activated (or ineligible to fight).
Usurpator 06-08-07, 06:23 PM	It seems to me this is precisely the sort of thing we have monster fights (and, incidentally, FFAs and Inter-League fights) to fix, which makes me think the whole reason you're suggesting this is due to not wanting to deal with those (the monster fights, anyway), and from that perspective, something I think is a bad idea to begin with looks even worse. I love variety in my fights, and I dislike monster fights, which are two of the primary reasons for suggesting a solution. I also think many people will prefer a regular fight over a monster fight, and would prefer different opponents instead of facing the same one each time. Can you please explain to me why that makes the idea look worse, I'm not following you on that really. Also, just because you don't like it, doesn't make the idea 'bad', please provide some arguments. Certainly, as you can see by my suggestion, the some consequences are hardly unavoidable. Also, if you activate a gladiator on ECL 8 one week, and one on ECL 9 the other week, and another player does exactly the reverse, you will get four monster fights, in what could have been two regular fights. Requires two more pitlords, and, I think, is less fun. You could either have people coordinate their fights 'off the record' (which is already happening) or could institute some mechanism that helps people get a variety of opponents 'on the record'. Personally, I'm fine with the leagues other than 3 & 10 being relatively small now. Until/unless we get more members and they start leveling characters, thats how its going to be. So you can scout the competition ahead of time - thats nothing illegal. I do it even with the ECL 3 league. Always have. Just because its easier to guess who you'll face in smaller leagues doesn't make it a problem.Zevox The leagues higher leagues have always been small, as long as you need a year or more to get into the higher levels, and there are people popping in and out of play, and there is a limit to how many characters you can play, this will remain. It is something we have to deal with. I personally dislike being faced with just one opponent in the ECL5 league, and then having to 'choose' which of my gladiators to activate just because I happen to be on nearer to the deadline than the player who activated that other gladiator. I also dislike the idea of two people 'scouting' a particular league, seeing no one active, and deciding not to activate a gladiator themselves, even although both wanted a fight at that level.
Usurpator 06-08-07, 06:28 PM	Note: I brought up the league idea for discussion of the idea, to see if people see this as a problem, to see if others have other ideas to solve it, not because I desire to implement it soon. It is just an *idea*.
Usurpator 06-08-07, 06:34 PM	The problem that I think you are facing Usurpator is not so much the smaller sized leagues once you get out of ECL3, but rather that not everyone has as many characters at a particular ECL as you do at one of them. Actually, that is not a big problem for me. I can freely swap between activating different characters. Being forced to take monster fights is the only problem in that regard. Still, I'm signaling lone gladiators being the single active one in the league, or gladiators doing rematches three times in a row. To me that's a sign leagues are not filled sufficiently. Seeing there are enough gladiators in most leagues, it is more of an activation problem (and thus a coordination problem) than the presence of sufficient gladiators. Hence my suggestion to improve coordination. My suggestion is to activate one or two of them exclusively for a few weeks until they move up to the next level. Once there - you should have them more spread out. This has the side benefit of enabling some of the lower ECL characters to catch up to the currently Usurpator-crowded ECL to give you other opponents. Well, I can actually create a kind of Usurpator's Wall at ECL5, more or less forcing other gladiators to defeat a few of my characters before they are allowed to 'pass' to a higher league, just by activating a particular character(s) that seems effective against the activated ECL5 gladiators. ;)
Zevox 06-08-07, 07:06 PM	I love variety in my fights, and I dislike monster fights, which are two of the primary reasons for suggesting a solution. I also think many people will prefer a regular fight over a monster fight, and would prefer different opponents instead of facing the same one each time. Can you please explain to me why that makes the idea look worse, I'm not following you on that really. Also, just because you don't like it, doesn't make the idea 'bad', please provide some arguments. Certainly, as you can see by my suggestion, the some consequences are hardly unavoidable. Of course most folks will prefer PC vs PC fights to a monster one - thats a given. That doesn't mean we should be placing restrictions on who can activate when just to avoid monsters fights doing exactly what they were implemented to do. Thats what makes this look worse to me - its a bad idea to begin with because an unnecessary additional restriction on the gladiators here*, its worse because its supposed to counter something that isn't even a problem in the first place, but functioning exactly as it is intended to. * Hogarth hit on one of the biggest issues I have with this, I feel obligated to point out. If you don't have characters in a wide variety of leagues, this suggestion forces you to cease participating at all in weeks when the leagues you are in shut down. Thats just not fair. My brother (Milov), for instance, really only plays one character consistently. With this suggestion, he'd be stuck participating only every other week unless he started using other characters more consistently, which I can say would irk me terribly in his position. I actually think this would drive members away - it seems to me this restriction would cause a much greater loss of fun around here than monster fights ever could. Also, if you activate a gladiator on ECL 8 one week, and one on ECL 9 the other week, and another player does exactly the reverse, you will get four monster fights, in what could have been two regular fights. Requires two more pitlords, and, I think, is less fun. That presumes that those are the only two people activating characters in those leagues, and that neither got inter-league fights instead. In other words, its a pretty unlikely situation, and does not in my mind justify a restriction such as this. I also dislike the idea of two people 'scouting' a particular league, seeing no one active, and deciding not to activate a gladiator themselves, even although both wanted a fight at that level. I somehow can't see that happening often either. When I referenced "scouting" leagues myself, I simply meant that I decided who I wanted to activated, then looked over all the characters in that league and came up with basic ideas for how to counter them. I never presume that a character who isn't marked as active isn't going to be such until the deadline has passed, because many of our members do wait until the last minute to activate characters. Thats something you get used to, in my experience. Zevox
Vathelokai 06-08-07, 09:43 PM	Personally, I wouldn't be opposed to just allowing everyone to put in their characters headline, [No Monsters]. I'm content with monsters, all vs alls, and interleague fights. I think we need something fixed in the relm of 'auto-losses', but that's a different matter. We're here to have fun, and I thing allowing an opt-out policy could enhance that.
Rauul 06-08-07, 10:39 PM	Personally, I wouldn't be opposed to just allowing everyone to put in their characters headline, [No Monsters]. I'm content with monsters, all vs alls, and interleague fights. I think we need something fixed in the relm of 'auto-losses', but that's a different matter. We're here to have fun, and I thing allowing an opt-out policy could enhance that. I personnelly think the Pitlord running a Monster fight should roll 3 times, and then pick 1 of the 3 that he/she feels is a balanced/equal fight.. Since Not every monster fight should be an auto-win/ auto lost for either..
Rauul 06-08-07, 10:40 PM	ok next Question... whats someone's leadership score have to be to get a Shadow Mastiff as a Cohort :schemes: :schemes:
Erithmu 06-08-07, 10:50 PM	ok next Question... whats someone's leadership score have to be to get a Shadow Mastiff as a Cohort :schemes: :schemes: Enough to get ECL 7 ... 4HD + 3LA for cohort
Rauul 06-08-07, 11:03 PM	Enough to get ECL 7 ... 4HD + 3LA for cohort So level 9, and a Small thieves guild comes with Shadow at that level... scary thought.... Who needs to play the guild game.. just make their own guild with leadership and followers!! 9(level) + 4 (cha+2 cloak)=13 is only 1 cohort of (ecl 7 loose 2 levels for coco rules) 10 level 1 thieves 1 level 2 thieves So whats the rules for a Player kidnapping a guild member and ransoming it off (without being in a guild).. :dancin:
Vathelokai 06-08-07, 11:51 PM	So whats the rules for a Player kidnapping a guild member and ransoming it off (without being in a guild).. :dancin: The elders have been tossing around the idea of a 'Living Gladius' system where individuals can do guild like things. It's still in brainstorming stages, but that may be a possibility.
Vathelokai 06-09-07, 12:28 AM	I'm having a problem with my quest, Investigating... Denth. I've encountered a hellwasp swarm with unknown allies. I have no area effect spells prepared; in fact I have next to nothing that will effect them. Hell wasp swarm = Large (diminuative) swarm, 93 hp, fly 40, immune to weapon damage, DR 10/magic, resist fire 10, 3d6 swarm damage, DC 18 nauseate, DC 18 1d6 dex poison My meager options: Web: does this do anything to a swarm? Might slow them down, but the fire resistance means I cannot damage them with it. Summon swarm: would a bat swarms wounding ability work on another swarm? Rules don't say no (as far as I can tell), but common sense does. Summons: -Achaerai: insanity cloud could slow them down at least. -Lantern archon: does the lantern's light beam target one creature? if so, it cannot hit a swarm. Unfortunately, the light beam isn't defined. Mephits: Air mephits can get off a couple breath weapons for a measely avg. 3 dmg, and have a 15% chance at doing avg 6 subdual dmg with their gust of wind. Dust mephits could put up a wind wall to delay with. Salt and Steam mephits should be able to kill it outright (read their special power), but instead do avg. 6 dmg. -Air elemental: the whirlwind ability is obviously not written for swarms. What size creature is the swarm in the whirlwind; large or diminutive? But then, the swarm only fails it's reflex to negate damage if it rolls a 1. Looks to me like the best case scenario is (with massively lucky rolls), 6 lanterns or air mephits, never getting hit and doing decent dmg = approx 60 dmg. Unless the bat swarm can wound them, or the dice gods really love me today, I don't see this one happening. If anyone has any ideas, I'd love to hear them. Thanks for listening to me talk myself through this.
hogarth 06-09-07, 12:43 AM	-Air elemental: the whirlwind ability is obviously not written for swarms. What size creature is the swarm in the whirlwind; large or diminutive? Diminutive, I think. Swarms made up of Diminutive or Fine creatures are susceptible to high winds such as that created by a gust of wind spell. For purposes of determining the effects of wind on a swarm, treat the swarm as a creature of the same size as its constituent creatures.
Malither76 06-09-07, 02:33 AM	I love monster fights, I like the challenge. Alternating leagues would be horrible, I have 2 frozen characters now, probably would have had close to a third if I wouldn't have started crafting for 5 weeks, so I'm looking at having 2 ECL 10's active and a 9. I don't like the idea of not playing all 3 each week when the leagues open.
Sindorin 06-09-07, 02:48 AM	I'm having a problem with my quest, Investigating... Denth. I've encountered a hellwasp swarm with unknown allies. I have no area effect spells prepared; in fact I have next to nothing that will effect them. Hell wasp swarm = Large (diminuative) swarm, 93 hp, fly 40, immune to weapon damage, DR 10/magic, resist fire 10, 3d6 swarm damage, DC 18 nauseate, DC 18 1d6 dex poison My meager options: Web: does this do anything to a swarm? Might slow them down, but the fire resistance means I cannot damage them with it. Summon swarm: would a bat swarms wounding ability work on another swarm? Rules don't say no (as far as I can tell), but common sense does. Summons: -Achaerai: insanity cloud could slow them down at least. -Lantern archon: does the lantern's light beam target one creature? if so, it cannot hit a swarm. Unfortunately, the light beam isn't defined. Mephits: Air mephits can get off a couple breath weapons for a measely avg. 3 dmg, and have a 15% chance at doing avg 6 subdual dmg with their gust of wind. Dust mephits could put up a wind wall to delay with. Salt and Steam mephits should be able to kill it outright (read their special power), but instead do avg. 6 dmg. -Air elemental: the whirlwind ability is obviously not written for swarms. What size creature is the swarm in the whirlwind; large or diminutive? But then, the swarm only fails it's reflex to negate damage if it rolls a 1. Looks to me like the best case scenario is (with massively lucky rolls), 6 lanterns or air mephits, never getting hit and doing decent dmg = approx 60 dmg. Unless the bat swarm can wound them, or the dice gods really love me today, I don't see this one happening. If anyone has any ideas, I'd love to hear them. Thanks for listening to me talk myself through this. NPC manifest Ego Whip? Unless you have a way yourself of doing CHA damage. I Ego Whipped a hellwasp swarm in Cat's campaign and it was down in all of one round.
Abyssal Stalker 06-09-07, 03:58 AM	NPC manifest Ego Whip? Unless you have a way yourself of doing CHA damage. I Ego Whipped a hellwasp swarm in Cat's campaign and it was down in all of one round. How do you ego whip a swarm? That's like ego whipping a thousand creatures in one round. *checks SRD* Aww, man. Swarms can be affected by mind-affecting effects...
Vathelokai 06-09-07, 08:24 AM	Aww, man. Swarms can be affected by mind-affecting effects... Some of them. Hellwasps happen to have a hive mind.
UserNamer 06-09-07, 09:01 AM	Can the spellcasting service be used to cast a spell with a duration of 1min, just before the combat?
Zevox 06-09-07, 09:03 AM	Can the spellcasting service be used to cast a spell with a duration of 1min, just before the combat? Of course not. You know our prebuff rules - anything you want prebuffed has to last longer than the time roll, which is a minimum of 1 hour. Zevox
UserNamer 06-09-07, 09:27 AM	Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while normal ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost. can this be prevented somehow? Using a special materials or something?
Macbrea 06-09-07, 09:34 AM	Nope.. . that is the rule.
Vathelokai 06-09-07, 10:09 AM	can this be prevented somehow? Using a special materials or something? If you have the credits to waste on high level npc services, you can get someone to cast a metamagic persistant version of the spells (see divine SRD). Otherwise, the full list of spells and powers that have durrations long enough to be prebuffed are in TAO post 13. Also at TAO13, planar allys post updated; red wizard circle magic description fixed; alter self for humanoids fixed; notes on polymorph rules added.
Usurpator 06-09-07, 02:54 PM	As far as staggering leagues is concerned: From what I've heard it is not considered a big problem (if at all) by many here. Next to that many think my proposed solution would create an even bigger problem (not being able to activate your gladiator at times), so unless I can think of a better solution, and/or the problem gets more accute, I will shut up about it for now.
Usurpator 06-09-07, 02:59 PM	The Delay Rule (for discussion) As far as I know the Delay Rule serves two purposes: Breaking a Stalemate Sometimes the tactics of both of the opposing gladiators cause them to be caught in a stalemate or an endless causative loop. The delay rule is supposed to break such a stalemate. Examples: 1. Both gladiators state in their tactics to sit and wait for their opponent. 2. Gladiator A wants to close for melee, gladiator B wants to stay at range. Both have the same speed. A situation can arise where A continually chases B who keeps makes double moves (or withdraw actions) to escape A. 3. Both gladiators have readied an action to trigger when the other starts spellcasting. They keep staring each other down to infinity. Prevent bypassing limited time effects Many abilities, spells and powers have a limited duration. Gladiators should not be able to overcome these durations by simply evading any combat (possibly for hours or days) while waiting for such abilities to expire. The purpose of the CoCo is to have a fight *here and now*. Generally speaking, gladiators want to face each other on their own terms, and will try to manipulate the situation so that they do. Some of such tactics will cause *non-fights* to happen, others will cause extended periods of *non-fighting*, both are unfun and a headache to the Pitlord. I would like to rewrite the rule and make it a bit clearer, but before I try to do that, I of course need to have some agreement on it's purpose. So please post if you agree with the purposes above, if so, to what extent. If you think the delay rule has other purposes, please speak up.
Erithmu 06-09-07, 03:50 PM	@Ururpator: I like your energy in looking at changing/clarifying some of the rules that are in the gray area of the CoCo. However I think the proper channel is to bring the discussion(s) to the Council, and wait for it to be discussed in turn.
Usurpator 06-09-07, 03:52 PM	@Ururpator: I like your energy in looking at changing/clarifying some of the rules that are in the gray area of the CoCo. However I think the proper channel is to bring the discussion(s) to the Council, and wait for it to be discussed in turn. Thanks. My idea with trying it here first, because I don't want to bother the Elders unless we can at least get some agreement. If not enough people think it worth a discussion here, it's probably not worth suggesting it in the council is my opinion.
TelinArtho 06-09-07, 04:51 PM	The other point I would make is that not much can be done until at least Sunday when MWB returns and probably until Sauro returns (unless a vote is a landslide). Still - I agree with Usurpator that discussion can start here and then be brought before the council if it seems warranted. This helps keep the clutter of a discussion out of the council - so the elders can remain more focused.
Zevox 06-09-07, 05:28 PM	The other point I would make is that not much can be done until at least Sunday when MWB returns and probably until Sauro returns (unless a vote is a landslide). Still - I agree with Usurpator that discussion can start here and then be brought before the council if it seems warranted. This helps keep the clutter of a discussion out of the council - so the elders can remain more focused. Aye, and considering how many things we have on our plate at the moment, that helps a lot. We still haven't come to a decision on the ally issue, save for removing diplomacy allies... still need to get opinions from NiQil and Vath on the minimum level list and Handle Animal list, Sauro still needs to respond to the latest requests you and I made about the minimum level list, plus a little MWB input would be great... then theres the issue about customizing purchased allies... then theres the issues that were just recently posted... then I want that house rule about listen checks for attacking looked at again... Yeah, we've got so much we should be discussing in there, so why has it been so dead lately? Zevox
Rauul 06-09-07, 05:47 PM	Aye, and considering how many things we have on our plate at the moment, that helps a lot. We still haven't come to a decision on the ally issue, save for removing diplomacy allies... still need to get opinions from NiQil and Vath on the minimum level list and Handle Animal list, Sauro still needs to respond to the latest requests you and I made about the minimum level list, plus a little MWB input would be great... then theres the issue about customizing purchased allies... then theres the issues that were just recently posted... then I want that house rule about listen checks for attacking looked at again... Yeah, we've got so much we should be discussing in there, so why has it been so dead lately? Zevox Buys the overworked Elders a Beer....
TelinArtho 06-09-07, 08:49 PM	Most of my questions/responses require input from MWB and Sauro. Plus - with me doing the roster and such - plus my own hectic RL - I just haven't really had the time to go forward in there.
Zevox 06-09-07, 09:12 PM	Buys the overworked Elders a Beer.... No thanks, I don't drink. I'd accept a soda though. ;) Zevox
Rauul 06-09-07, 10:36 PM	No thanks, I don't drink. I'd accept a soda though. ;) Zevox No Soda for you!!! (becomes the Soda Nazi)
Salrantol 06-10-07, 05:37 PM	@amalcon: A couple issues with Saldor Amalcon. There is an armor check penalty with a mithral breastplate. Since mithral items are all masterwork, the masterwork bonus is included in the mithral bonus, so a mithral BP has a -1 ACP. Secondly, I really, really, REALLY, REALLY think you should rename Craft (Armorsmithing-trade) to avoid confusion. Even if you don't rename Craft (Armorsmithing-trade), you still need to have two different sets of masterwork armorsmithing tools to gain the bonus to both Craft skills.
Sjiggie 06-10-07, 08:48 PM	My new creation is up here I still need to sort out a couple of things but any comment is welcome at this point. -Sjiggie
MindWandererB 06-10-07, 09:15 PM	Hi, all, I'm back. It's going to take me a little while to get all caught up in all the threads, but I'm up to date with the tavern now.New idea: Staggered league activations. Since I see people already wanting the ECL 10 League to open up, and we often have very few contestants at several of the leagues, how about staggering them. ECL 3+4,5,6 week one? ECL 3+7,8,9,10 week two? That way we can concentrate active gladiators a bit more. Less rematches, less mandatory monster fights.For the reasons others have presented, I don't want to enforce inactivity for anyone at any time. The two solutions I have at the moment are: 1) Combine the leagues: 10+11, 12+13, 14+15, and frozen at 16. This has the advantage of retaining something like our existing system. 2) Allow Pitlords to assign fights at +/- 1 ECL ad-hoc. This has the disadvantage of being somewhat arbitrary, but the advantage of applying exactly when and where it's needed--and can also help with the underpopulated leagues below ECL 10 as well. (Which would result in fewer monster fights.)Question: If you are on a charging mount, can you take a move action in addition to the attack at the end of the charge, or does the charge count as a FRA for you as well as your mount?The rules for mounted combat are pretty badly written. Some parts of the PHB refer to a mounted charge counting as a charge action for the rider; other parts describe it as being like any other move+action. The former references slightly outnumber the latter, as does Skip (for what that's worth). It also makes more sense, since you get the -2 AC penalty and the +2 to hit as if you were charging yourself. In fact, it's impossible to run the other way, since a mount can't perform a normal charge without attacking, making lances useless (as mentioned earlier). In any event, however, there's no way you could make a mounted charge and a full attack, since your move action occurs during the mount's movement (whether you actually take a move action or not), barring oddities like Hustle. Ride-By Attack was also mentioned: as the FAQ says, it's nonfunctional as written. (It doesn't eliminate the requirement to run straight at the target, and doesn't allow you to move through their space.) To make it work, you have to ignore the former rule, and allow the attack to occur from a space off to one side.2. can a horse or other animal be ridden without having the combat package or any other trick, but it is an intellegent creature?Intelligent creatures do not require tricks in the literal sense for any purpose. However, they still need to be trained to bear a rider in combat (or else you have to do the "control mount" thing). So while they don't technically get the Combat Riding package (and thus, no free armor proficiency), you still have to train them. -=-=-=-==-=-=- Finally: I'm in the market for a questlord (again) for Gakhnalak, since his last quest sort of fizzled and died. Anyone who has the time and interest in some RP, shoot me a PM.
Yitzi 06-10-07, 10:53 PM	Ride-By Attack was also mentioned: as the FAQ says, it's nonfunctional as written. (It doesn't eliminate the requirement to run straight at the target, and doesn't allow you to move through their space.) To make it work, you have to ignore the former rule, and allow the attack to occur from a space off to one side. Actually, it can work, like this:http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=plains;a=Name,L,10,81,1 5,81,22,81;b=Name,M,17,82 Since the closest spot from which red (at the leftmost point) can attack blue is the centermost point, that is the spot he must move to in order to charge. From that point, he can continue the straight line without intersecting blue, "riding by" blue and attacking on the way.
MindWandererB 06-11-07, 01:20 AM	Actually, it can work, like this:http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=plains;a=Name,L,10,81,1 5,81,22,81;b=Name,M,17,82 Since the closest spot from which red (at the leftmost point) can attack blue is the centermost point, that is the spot he must move to in order to charge. From that point, he can continue the straight line without intersecting blue, "riding by" blue and attacking on the way. Not quite.Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)Your diagram meets the "closest space" requirement, but not the "directly toward" requirement.
McJarvis 06-11-07, 08:22 AM	Not quite.Your diagram meets the "closest space" requirement, but not the "directly toward" requirement. His movement is as "directly toward" as it would be if he moved 5ft up during the move.[well, maybe 5ft up is a little better, but since no option is "direct", I think some crawl space can be allowed with these types of angles] The angles[& size difference] are such that he couldn't go "directly toward" his opponent. [though his diagram is wrong for lance purposes: the first stop should be 5ft closer to the starting point, since lances have reach] The point is, if you share a row/column of squares with your opponent: you can not ride by attack them.
Yitzi 06-11-07, 08:39 AM	You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.) That is the version in Sovelior's SRD. However, I believe that since this seems to contradict other staements, it is appropriate to get clarification from other sources. For one, the text in the hypertext SRD and in the PHB is as follows: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.) Not too differerent, only one change, the paragraph break. But that paragraph break (which originally was there, since it's in the PHB), shows that "directly toward" is in the "general description" paragraph, and "closest space" is in the "details" paragraph, so it seems that the determining factor for which space you attack from is "closest space", and "directly toward" simply means no turning in your charge. According to this interpretation, ride-by attack will work...sometimes.
Malither76 06-11-07, 09:52 AM	guys I know its hard sometimes but use a little sense here. Ride by attack can be used just as Yitzi posted. The complete warrior has rules for holding Joust and other types of tournaments, A mounted knight would never be able to charge and keep moving the way you guys are trying to interpret the rule, when in fact they never charge directly at one another because of the barricade that keeps them out of each others direct path. If we must vote on this than please do, I believe this is the intent behind the feat but who knows sometimes
McJarvis 06-11-07, 09:55 AM	Not to mention situations where creatures(mounted or not) would be prevented from charging at all due to the "most direct path" being different from the "shortest path". A good example would be a medium-sized creature one row below & 50 colums to the right of a creature that takes up 40x40 squares. Clearly the "direct" path is up towards the creatures center(up & left), but the "shortest" path is straight left.
Yitzi 06-11-07, 10:38 AM	So it seems that you need the most direct path to the closest spot from which you can attack the target.
Adolfo_Mondschein 06-11-07, 06:04 PM	Eh, well it is called "Ride-by-attack", I mean look at the name. It implies two things, riding by, and attacking. So I'm assuming thats what they had in mind when they made the feat. Just my 2 cp. Well anyway, I have a couple questions. 1.) Can I buy a wand of cure light wounds with half charges left for a new character? It's not exactly custom, I could have bought it from a secondhand store, or perhaps it was given to me, or whatever story, as long as it isn't really "for free". I'd rather not dish out 750 of my precious gold right now. 2.) Their aren't any synergies for Craft(poisonmaking) correct? like Knowledge Nature or something? It doesn't say, so I'm assuming theirs not.
Erithmu 06-11-07, 06:12 PM	1.) Can I buy a wand of cure light wounds with half charges left for a new character? It's not exactly custom, I could have bought it from a secondhand store, or perhaps it was given to me, or whatever story, as long as it isn't really "for free". I'd rather not dish out 750 of my precious gold right now. 2.) Their aren't any synergies for Craft(poisonmaking) correct? like Knowledge Nature or something? It doesn't say, so I'm assuming theirs not. No and no ...
hogarth 06-11-07, 06:13 PM	1.) Can I buy a wand of cure light wounds with half charges left for a new character? It's not exactly custom, I could have bought it from a secondhand store, or perhaps it was given to me, or whatever story, as long as it isn't really "for free". I'd rather not dish out 750 of my precious gold right now. The official answer is "no, not even with credits". 2.) Their aren't any synergies for Craft(poisonmaking) correct? like Knowledge Nature or something? It doesn't say, so I'm assuming theirs not. No, there aren't any synergies.
Zevox 06-11-07, 06:20 PM	1.) Can I buy a wand of cure light wounds with half charges left for a new character? It's not exactly custom, I could have bought it from a secondhand store, or perhaps it was given to me, or whatever story, as long as it isn't really "for free". I'd rather not dish out 750 of my precious gold right now. As the others said, no, you cannot get such an item here at all, even with credits. Because wands are always cheaper per use than scrolls, allowing them to be obtained with less than full charges would essentially make scrolls worthless (even if they required credits, it would be easy to obtain wands with only a few charges without them using our Gather Information rules). So those are totally illegal here to preserve that balance. Zevox
Adolfo_Mondschein 06-11-07, 06:44 PM	Yeah, thats what I thought. Thanks!
Erithmu 06-11-07, 06:53 PM	Can a player move while employing a tower shield for total cover? If yes, then how do I deal with the issue of the other character wanting to go for ranged combat and the Delay Penalty?
McJarvis 06-11-07, 06:59 PM	As the others said, no, you cannot get such an item here at all, even with credits. Because wands are always cheaper per use than scrolls, allowing them to be obtained with less than full charges would essentially make scrolls worthless (even if they required credits, it would be easy to obtain wands with only a few charges without them using our Gather Information rules). So those are totally illegal here to preserve that balance. Zevox Note that this logic does not apply to certain personal-range spells when turned into 1-time use wondrous items that can be worn, as opposed to potions which must be drawn. :rolleyes:
Zevox 06-11-07, 07:01 PM	Note that this logic does not apply to certain personal-range spells when turned into 1-time use wondrous items that can be worn, as opposed to potions which must be drawn. :rolleyes: Um, what are you referring to? I seem to have missed something somewhere, because I don't get the reference... :confused: Zevox
McJarvis 06-11-07, 07:01 PM	Can a player move while employing a tower shield for total cover? If yes, then how do I deal with the issue of the other character wanting to go for ranged combat and the Delay Penalty? 1) I think so 2) Depends on the situation. If the melee'r would be completely unable to reach the ranged fellow with double moves(or even run actions), then I'd say it's the ranged fellow's responsibility to be able to negate the cover on the tower shield.
McJarvis 06-11-07, 07:02 PM	Um, what are you referring to? I seem to have missed something somewhere, because I don't get the reference... There is a certain "token" shield spell item that was approved with creds(gather info) at the cost rate of (SL)x(CL)x50gp. Check your favorite gather-information character (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9794756#post9794756) for details ;) [I just think it's dumb to allow a one-time use wondrous item which employs a spell which is unavailable in potions at a potion price-rate, especially when the formula it's derived from points to a potion as an example of the formula's use]
Vathelokai 06-11-07, 11:27 PM	Guild Question: This week, the paramilitary group Free Thinkers, attacked TAO. TAO attacked them last week. This week, the Free Thinkers were defeated (EL reduced to 0). Do they still attack next week?
MindWandererB 06-12-07, 12:18 AM	Guild Question: This week, the paramilitary group Free Thinkers, attacked TAO. TAO attacked them last week. This week, the Free Thinkers were defeated (EL reduced to 0). Do they still attack next week? They really shouldn't--it doesn't make much sense. Although it wouldn't be unreasonable that their agent was the sole survivor....
Erithmu 06-12-07, 12:19 AM	Guild Question: This week, the paramilitary group Free Thinkers, attacked TAO. TAO attacked them last week. This week, the Free Thinkers were defeated (EL reduced to 0). Do they still attack next week? The best part is that if the quest that killed them wasn't late, it would have never happened.
Vathelokai 06-12-07, 12:36 AM	I'm fine either way. I'm just wondering if Zevox's Kathren needs to be intercepting, or just going out to the arena.
Zevox 06-12-07, 12:36 AM	Guild Question: This week, the paramilitary group Free Thinkers, attacked TAO. TAO attacked them last week. This week, the Free Thinkers were defeated (EL reduced to 0). Do they still attack next week? Since the quest was held over, yep. Technically, their defeat doesn't go into effect until Wednesday, and the attack was launched last Wednesday, so its still on. Zevox
Adolfo_Mondschein 06-12-07, 01:24 AM	The Delay Rule (for discussion) As far as I know the Delay Rule serves two purposes: Breaking a Stalemate Sometimes the tactics of both of the opposing gladiators cause them to be caught in a stalemate or an endless causative loop. The delay rule is supposed to break such a stalemate. Examples: 1. Both gladiators state in their tactics to sit and wait for their opponent. 2. Gladiator A wants to close for melee, gladiator B wants to stay at range. Both have the same speed. A situation can arise where A continually chases B who keeps makes double moves (or withdraw actions) to escape A. 3. Both gladiators have readied an action to trigger when the other starts spellcasting. They keep staring each other down to infinity. Prevent bypassing limited time effects Many abilities, spells and powers have a limited duration. Gladiators should not be able to overcome these durations by simply evading any combat (possibly for hours or days) while waiting for such abilities to expire. The purpose of the CoCo is to have a fight *here and now*. Generally speaking, gladiators want to face each other on their own terms, and will try to manipulate the situation so that they do. Some of such tactics will cause *non-fights* to happen, others will cause extended periods of *non-fighting*, both are unfun and a headache to the Pitlord. I would like to rewrite the rule and make it a bit clearer, but before I try to do that, I of course need to have some agreement on it's purpose. So please post if you agree with the purposes above, if so, to what extent. If you think the delay rule has other purposes, please speak up. How about constitution checks after a lot of rounds? If they had to make checks from becoming fatigued, then exhausted, then unconscious, eventually they'll break off their more favorable tactics and engage each other in the end right? Eh, maybe not, at least it would be easier on the pitlord running the fight.
MindWandererB 06-12-07, 02:30 AM	After Besthirah's defeat at a mere four blasts from a magic missile wand, I think I need to come up with something to solve that weakness. A brooch of shielding is just inadequate, which leaves only a custom item. An item (say, a ring) of continuous shield would normally be 1x1x2000x2=4000 gp. That's clearly silly, as a +4 shield bonus to AC should be somewhere between 16000 and 40000 gp, depending on what formula you use. (The item creation chart says that a bonus to AC other than deflection costs bonus squared x 2500, but the bracers of armor, amulet of natural armor and ring of force shield don't use that formula--in fact, I can't find anything that does.) Then there's the magic missile immunity, which is hard to quantify. If you assume that the brooch of shielding's price is based on it absorbing about 30 individual magic missiles, which is like having 30 charges, then an unlimited-use item (which are priced as equal to 100 charges) would be (1500/30*100) = 5000 gp. Does this seem like a reasonable track, or is it too much extrapolation for CoCo purposes?
Zevox 06-12-07, 02:34 AM	No time just now to look over the ideas, but I figured I'd pop off a suggestion for your consideration: Ceilia's method of dealing with magic missile is Spell Immunity. I'd suggest that spell is a good way to quantify the MM immunity issue. Zevox
Usurpator 06-12-07, 02:53 AM	Then there's the magic missile immunity, which is hard to quantify. If you assume that the brooch of shielding's price is based on it absorbing about 30 individual magic missiles, which is like having 30 charges, then an unlimited-use item (which are priced as equal to 100 charges) would be (1500/30*100) = 5000 gp. Personally, I think the weakness is appropriate and should not be shored up with custom items for credits. Especially when there already is a solution right now: a brooch of shielding. Why don't you want to use it, because it is a neckslot item? Because it has charges? If it costs only a couple of credits and some gp., everyone would have a shield item (3/day is fine too) soon enough. There are plenty of ways to counter weaknesses without resorting to custom items, which personally I think is a bit cheesy. When I look at custom items for credits, I tend to look both if they are balanced, and if they are healthy for the enviroment. Many custom items I saw in the past weren't, but since most of the stuff I had objections too belonged to Cat's characters, I thought better of voicing my complaints. Just be careful with custom items, especially if you're a GM.
Erithmu 06-12-07, 07:17 AM	Personally, I think the weakness is appropriate and should not be shored up with custom items for credits. Especially when there already is a solution right now: a brooch of shielding. Why don't you want to use it, because it is a neckslot item? Because it has charges? Because MWB has already been through a brooch on a character ... in one fight ... found ... highly ineffectual in deterring his opponent and that character is now 1500gp in the hole.
Salrantol 06-12-07, 07:29 AM	No time just now to look over the ideas, but I figured I'd pop off a suggestion for your consideration: Ceilia's method of dealing with magic missile is Spell Immunity. I'd suggest that spell is a good way to quantify the MM immunity issue.And a 3/day command word cloak of spell immunity is available at the bargain price of 30,240 gp. But you'd probably want the CL 8 version so you can pick two spells to which to be immune, which would set you back 34,560 gp.
Adolfo_Mondschein 06-12-07, 08:02 AM	Personally, I think the weakness is appropriate and should not be shored up with custom items for credits. Especially when there already is a solution right now: a brooch of shielding. Why don't you want to use it, because it is a neckslot item? Because it has charges? If it costs only a couple of credits and some gp., everyone would have a shield item (3/day is fine too) soon enough. There are plenty of ways to counter weaknesses without resorting to custom items, which personally I think is a bit cheesy. When I look at custom items for credits, I tend to look both if they are balanced, and if they are healthy for the enviroment. Many custom items I saw in the past weren't, but since most of the stuff I had objections too belonged to Cat's characters, I thought better of voicing my complaints. Just be careful with custom items, especially if you're a GM. I think an Ion stone that blocked or attracted magic missiles would be much cooler, and way more useful to a character. I'd make it work just like Brooch of Shielding though, just cost more of course.
Macbrea 06-12-07, 08:12 AM	Brooch of shielding isn't very effective at high levels to protect against a determined caster. Example: Wand of Magic missle [CL 9] = 6,750 gp / 50 = 135 gp per charge The average damage = (2.5+1) x 5 ~ 17.5. Brooch of shielding = 101hp protection / 17.5 = 5.7 = 6 charges 6 Charges x 135 gp = 810gp for a non-crafter. Since, that wand is an easy craft to someone like Relanex. Who makes enough to craft it in a single fight. This means that if you cannot kill your target in 6 round. The 1500gp spent on the brooch isn't worth it in the long run, unless you are self crafting also.
Erithmu 06-12-07, 08:16 AM	Since, that wand is an easy craft to someone like Relanex. Who makes enough to craft it in a single fight. This means that if you cannot kill your target in 6 round. The 1500gp spent on the brooch isn't worth it in the long run, unless you are self crafting also. And the only people who can craft a brooch are the ones who can cast shield in the first place...
Macbrea 06-12-07, 08:21 AM	Well.. it might be worth Relanex's time to craft one for 750gp. It reduces casting of shield for him. :P
Erithmu 06-12-07, 08:29 AM	Well.. it might be worth Relanex's time to craft one for 750gp. It reduces casting of shield for him. :P Just make a wand of shield ........ or two ... or CL 2 ...
McJarvis 06-12-07, 08:57 AM	After Besthirah's defeat at a mere four blasts from a magic missile wand, I think I need to come up with something to solve that weakness. A brooch of shielding is just inadequate, which leaves only a custom item. I believe you are mis-reading the purpose of the brooch of shielding. It isn't meant to be a "lasting" shield against magic missile, in my eyes it is for the following situation: Round 1: User attacked by magic missile, 7 notches come off the brooch. User casts SHEILD Round 2-> 40: User immune to magic missile. Which is certainly a good enough strategy to use. Our job isn't to make "better" versions of that which is in the SRD[and since Sauro is the Blackmarket person, I'm willing to be you won't get magic missile immunity without a spell immunity base]
Macbrea 06-12-07, 08:59 AM	Here is my problem with a wand of shield. It is another buffing round that a caster should not be taking. The problem with spending the first 5 to 7 rounds buffing for a fight is that isn't very realistic. In our RL campaign. our average fight lasts 4 - 6 rounds. If I don't actually do something in that time, I am mostly just wasting my companions time. So, you will notice I don't spend alot of time buffing.
TelinArtho 06-12-07, 11:26 AM	@MWB - this is the snapshot of the Character Roster before my edits last week as promised. Would have sent it via PM - but it is a little much (28750 characters, or about 5-6 PMs... Characters of Gladius REWARDS http://www.caterane.de/CoCo/Struktur/Pfeil1.gif http://www.caterane.de/CoCo/Struktur/Goldhaufen.jpg LEVEL 3 CHARACTERS (LOW) [A] Gash (Aura_Blade) [Power: 1000 (1000); 0 won, 0 lost] Kazero Zenigame (Aura_Blade) [Power: 743 (743); 0 won, 3 lost] [P] Shadovar (Deathspell_Omega) [Power: 914 (914); 0 won, 1 lost] Hiisi Ivaldi (Etiquette_Gnome) [Power: 1210 (1210); 4 won, 1 lost] [A] Psellus the Frail (Khaim) [Power: 900 (900); 1 won, 0 lost] [A] Psyker Elfbane (Khaim) [Power: 1000 (1000); 0 won, 0 lost] [A] Atemu (Korone) [Power: 1000 (1000); 0 won, 0 lost] Lars d'Exavar (Macbrea) [Power: 895 (895); 1 won, 2 lost] [A] Anger (McJarvis) [Power: 1000 (1000); 0 won, 0 lost] [A] General Zaroff (McJarvis) [Power: 1187 (1187); 3 won, 1 lost] Nukpana (McJarvis) [Power: 1000 (1000); 0 won, 0 lost] Nanasi Seaslash (Milov) [Power: 888 (888); 0 won, 1 lost] [A] Apocalypse (NiQil) [Power: 764 (764); 0 won, 2 lost] [A] Blitzkrieg (NiQil) [Power: 912 (912); 0 won, 1 lost] [A] Juggernaut (NiQil) [Power: 1000 (1000); 0 won, 0 lost] [P] Kole Ignatius (One_Marine) [Power: 909 (909); 0 won, 1 lost] T'Kiir (Quoriil) [Power: 959 (959); 1 won, 1 lost] Roulex Dalus (Roulex) [Power: 1000 (1000); 0 won, 0 lost] Gradak Tumblebelly (Sjiggie) [Power: 891 (891); 1 won, 2 lost] [X] Darrgon the Summoner (TelinArtho) [Power: 1072 (1072); 2 won, 1 lost] Ilendil Oratith (TelinArtho) [Power: 737 (737); 0 won, 3 lost] [A] Phacce (UserNamer) [Power: 1000 (1000); 0 won, 0 lost] Namara (Usurpator) [Power: 1274 (1274); 3 won, 0 lost] Borodin Brightaxe (Usurpator) [Power: 1115 (1115); 2 won, 1 lost] [A] Solon the Usurper (Usurpator) [Power: 1020 (1020); 3 won, 3 lost] [A] Unholy Ninja (Vathelokai) [Power: 1216 (1216); 2 won, 0 lost] Inzin Dar'ath (waywreth) [Power: 1084 (1084); 1 won, 0 lost] Vantis Dar'ath (waywreth) [Power: 900 (900); 0 won, 1 lost] [A] Arbin Softfoot (Yitzi) [Power: 1206 (1206); 2 won, 0 lost] [A] Daren Legrad (Yitzi) [Power: 1231 (1231); 2 won, 0 lost] [X] Kathren Durrol (Zevox) [Power: 1050 (1050); 2 won, 1 lost] LEVEL 4 CHARACTERS (LOW) Ikhain al-Habari (Abyssal Stalker) [Power: 1452 (1027); 3 won, 3 lost] [Q:1] Mohmat Iptomor (Eluria) [Power: 1274 (901); 4 won, 5 lost] [X] Kai Engel (Hirumajoe) [Power: 1349 (954); 2 won, 4 lost] Balthazar Picsou (hogarth) [Power: 1155 (817); 2 won, 6 lost] The Mask Man (Milov) [Power: 1012 (716); 2 won, 6 lost] [A] Taren Rune (NiQil) [Power: 1211 (857); 2 won, 3 lost] Truls Rohk (NiQil) [Power: 1807 (1278); 5 won, 1 lost] [A] Tyden Rayn (NiQil) [Power: 1746 (1235); 4 won, 1 lost] [A] The shadow (Rauul) [Power: 1428 (1010); 2 won, 2 lost] [Q:2] Felice tu'Ria (Salrantol) [Power: 1507 (1066); 2 won, 1 lost] [M:1] Hajj (sonofzeal) [Power: 1753 (1240); 4 won, 1 lost] Tagg (TaggIIV) [Power: 1514 (1071); 3 won, 2 lost] [A] Vallgar the Unhinged (TelinArtho) [Power: 1640 (1160); 3 won, 1 lost] Harbinger (templer10) [Power: 1755 (1241); 5 won, 2 lost] [A] Lady Liara (templer10) [Power: 1414 (1000); 0 won, 0 lost] Dunerunner (Yitzi) [Power: 1111 (786); 2 won, 5 lost] LEVEL 5 CHARACTERS (LOW) [Q] Erithmu Darkmane (Erithmu) [Power: 1350 (675); 1 won, 5 lost] [Q:1] [Failure] Le Petit Guepe (Horatius) [Power: 2170 (1085); 7 won, 5 lost] [A] Razorfang (Macbrea) [Power: 1336 (668); 0 won, 4 lost] [Failure] Yorick (Macbrea) [Power: 2200 (1100); 1 won, 0 lost] [Q:1] Gakhnalak Strongjaw (MindWandererB) [Power: 3260 (1630); 8 won, 0 lost, 1 draw] [Great Renown] Tueor Amplexus (MysticMonk2005) [Power: 2178 (1089); 7 won, 6 lost] Graashnak Vruuurk (Rauul) [Power: 1690 (845); 4 won, 7 lost] [M:1] [Q] Valanthe Valassar (Sjiggie) [Power: 1000 (1000); 0 won, 0 lost] [Q:2] Zerth Cenobite (Sjiggie) [Power: 2260 (1130); 5 won, 4 lost] [Q] Bulgar Stronghammer (TelinArtho) [Power: 1922 (961); 4 won, 5 lost] [Q:2] Countess Ural of Promethia (TelinArtho) [Power: 2710 (1355); 5 won, 2 lost] [Q:1] [X] Zax Kar Nissex (TelinArtho) [Power: 2212 (1106); 7 won, 5 lost] [Q:2] Aramur the Aurora Prince (Usurpator) [Power: 2976 (1488); 8 won, 2 lost] Flamehair (Usurpator) [Power: 2122 (1061); 5 won, 5 lost] [A] Kitaya (Usurpator) [Power: 2466 (1233); 3 won, 2 lost] [Q:1] Maeril (Usurpator) [Power: 1752 (876); 5 won, 6 lost] [Q:1] Shazzelin the Gray (Usurpator) [Power: 2522 (1261); 7 won, 4 lost] [G] Zodiac (Vathelokai) [Power: 852 (426); 3 won, 12 lost] [Q:2] [M:2] [Failure] Matthis Dar'ath III (waywreth) [Power: 1782 (891); 5 won, 10 lost] [A] Lightwolf Phoenixstar (Yitzi) [Power: 2212 (1106); 4 won, 4 lost] [M:1] LEVEL 6 CHARACTERS (LOW) The Undertaker (Abyssal Stalker) [Power: 2053 (726); 8 won, 10 lost] [Q:1] Sabra Marana (Etiquette_Gnome) [Power: 2599 (919); 5 won, 6 lost, 1 draw] [Q:1] Reginald Molehusband (hogarth) [Power: 4457 (1576); 10 won, 1 lost] [Q:2] [Great Renown] Treetall Oakleg (hogarth) [Power: 4519 (1598); 8 won, 1 lost] [Q:3] [M:1] [Great Renown] Maya Redwine (MindWandererB) [Power: 4038 (1428); 10 won, 4 lost] [Q:1] [Q] Sybil ap Kalten (MitzaVolchenko) [Power: 2228 (788); 4 won, 8 lost] [Q:2] Garet Jax (NiQil) [Power: 2828 (1000); 0 won, 0 lost] [X] Enoch the Prophet (Salrantol) [Power: 3317 (1173); 9 won, 5 lost] [Q:2] Farig of Denth (TelinArtho) [Power: 2426 (858); 8 won, 9 lost] El Rapido (templer10) [Power: 2115 (748); 0 won, 3 lost] [A] Longshot (templer10) [Power: 3300 (1167); 2 won, 0 lost] [A] Lord Lorian (templer10) [Power: 4047 (1431); 9 won, 2 lost] [A] Mithos Durrol (Zevox) [Power: 3490 (1234); 8 won, 5 lost] [Q:2] LEVEL 7 CHARACTERS (MID) [C] Lemminkäinen (Abyssal Stalker) [Power: 4000 (1000); 0 won, 0 lost] [Q:1] [C] Kilpquabjeg (hogarth) [Power: 4584 (1146); 9 won, 6 lost] [Q:2] Durin (Maraxus) [Power: 3912 (978); 12 won, 10 lost] [A] Zwei und'Vierzig (MitzaVolchenko) [Power: 3132 (783); 7 won, 12 lost] [Q:1] [Q] The Corruptor (Rauul) [Power: 3748 (937); 1 won, 2 lost] [Q:1] [Q] Elrick Flamebrother (templer10) [Power: 6812 (1703); 8 won, 0 lost] [Great Renown] Rubicanti (TheMagister) [Power: 3980 (995); 10 won, 7 lost] [Q:1] Tezca (Usurpator) [Power: 5200 (1300); 5 won, 2 lost] Nexa (Usurpator) [Power: 7420 (1855); 10 won, 0 lost] [Q:3] [Great Renown] [X] Arden Tarmik (Zevox) [Power: 4704 (1176); 4 won, 4 lost] [Q:2] Mindrel Starmaster (Zevox) [Power: 4000 (1000); 0 won, 0 lost] LEVEL 8 CHARACTERS (MID) [C] Owen Ir'Tolden (Erithmu) [Power: 5656 (1000); 0 won, 0 lost] [Q:1] Torel Silvanus (Erithmu) [Power: 6692 (1183); 10 won, 7 lost] [Q:3] [E] Izumi (Macbrea) [Power: 3377 (597); 10 won, 19 lost] [Failure] [X] Relanex Thines (Macbrea) [Power: 4853 (858); 4 won, 8 lost] [A] Malik of Black Robe (Malither76) [Power: 7116 (1258); 3 won, 0 lost] [Q:3] Balrog (Maraxus) [Power: 6573 (1162); 6 won, 5 lost] [Q:1] Kervan Sheharath (MindWandererB) [Power: 6437 (1138); 12 won, 15 lost] [Q:2] Silis Lueria (MindWandererB) [Power: 5656 (1000); 0 won, 0 lost] [Q:3][C:1] Jar-red (TelinArtho) [Power: 6759 (1195); 4 won, 2 lost] [UnCon Gold] [Special Power] Antalya (Vathelokai) [Power: 4927 (871); 1 won, 2 lost] [Q:3] [UnCon Bronze] [C] PsiBeast (Vathelokai) [Power: 5656 (1000); 0 won, 0 lost] [Q:1] [C] Istima Telarc (Zevox) [Power: 9192 (1625); 13 won, 4 lost] [Q:3] [Great Renown] [E] The Battlesong Duet (Party) [Power: 8819 (1559); 6 won, 1 lost] [Q:1] [Great Renown] Cupid De Locke (McJarvis) [Power: 2828 (1000); 0 won, 0 lost] Tessero Valis (TheMagister) [Power: 3965 (1402); 6 won, 1 lost] LEVEL 9 CHARACTERS (MID) Ephraim (Erithmu) [Power: 8000 (1000); 0 won, 0 lost] [Q:2][C:1] [Special Power] [A] Valen Sky (Hirumajoe) [Power: 8120 (1015); 14 won, 12 lost] [Q:2] Ihdald Seaslash (Milov) [Power: 6349 (1114); 12 won, 14 lost] [Q:5] Lissa Longfellow (MysticMonk2005) [Power: 7528 (941); 16 won, 15 lost] [Q:1] Monsieur Hood (TheMagister) [Power: 14136 (1767); 15 won, 5 lost] [Q:2] [Great Renown] [Q] Denshi (Vathelokai) [Power: 5544 (693); 1 won, 6 lost] [Q:3][C:2] [Failure] [G] Ceilia Durrol (Zevox) [Power: 17584 (2198); 15 won, 0 lost] [Q:7] [Great Renown] LEVEL 10 CHARACTERS (MID) [FROZEN] Jonathon Raven Gravebound (Abyssal Stalker) [Power: 11313 (1000); 0 won, 0 lost] [Q:6] [Special Power] Ignatius, Vicar of Bahamut (Erithmu) [Power: 12886 (1139); 7 won, 4 lost] [Q:3][M:1][C:1] [Special Power] Loddick Saffrion (Erithmu) [Power: 12433 (1099); 14 won, 10 lost] [Q:5] Lord Frost (Macbrea) [Power: 7704 (681); 3 won, 6 lost] [Q:2] [Special Power] [Failure] [Q] Gareth Irontower (Malither76) [Power: 16427 (1452); 7 won, 2 lost] [Q:2][C:1] [Q] Baelin the Shadow (Malither76) [Power: 7772 (687); 1 won, 7 lost] [Q:6] [Failure] Noko (Maraxus) [Power: 17038 (1506); 14 won, 5 lost] [Great Renown] [Special Power] Zassl (Maraxus) [Power: 14787 (1307); 17 won, 16 lost] [Q:1] Aerryl Nalladar (MindWandererB) [Power: 13870 (1226); 17 won, 9 lost] [Q:4] Besthirah Lafali (MindWandererB) [Power: 13836 (1223); 5 won, 2 lost] [Q:1] [Special Power] Lady Indivara (MitzaVolchenko) [Power: 11313 (1000); 0 won, 0 lost] [Q:1] [Special Power] Perius (Ravashack) [Power: 10804 (955); 14 won, 33 lost] Raskos the Jade Father (SauroGrenom) [Power: 12920 (1142); 6 won, 5 lost] [Q:5] Kracknol (SauroGrenom) [Power: 16665 (1473); 20 won, 10 lost] [C:1] Retikos, The Padparadasha Sage (SauroGrenom) [Power: 11313 (1000); 0 won, 0 lost] [Q:1] Va'ria Theladrais (Sindorin) [Power: 16959 (1499); 10 won, 6 lost] [Q:3] Vandelar the Red (SoulLord) [Power: 14673 (1297); 17 won, 9 lost] [Q:4] Brilf Zephyr (Sunwolf) [Power: 11845 (1047); 16 won, 18 lost] Leif Goldeneye (Sunwolf) [Power:22106 (1954); 21 won, 4 lost] [Q:2] [Great Renown] [G] Telveran Trueblade (Sunwolf) [Power: 13022 (1151); 12 won, 9 lost] [C:1] Kraegin (TelinArtho) [Power: 13033 (1152); 9 won, 14 lost] [Q:3] Sir Valkin (TelinArtho) [Power: 12377 (1094); 14 won, 9 lost] [Q:4][C:1] Saffron Brass (Vathelokai) [Power: 11460 (1013); 4 won, 7 lost] [Q:6] [Special Power] [Q] Auburn (Vathelokai) [Power: 11200 (990); 12 won, 12 lost] [Q:5] Gaston Dar'ath (waywreth) [Power: 19335 (1709); 20 won, 7 lost] [Q:1] [Great Renown] Archdevil Asran (Zevox) [Power: 12965 (1146); 7 won, 6 lost] [Q:6] [Special Power] Eraca Moralta (Zevox) [Power: 15364 (1358); 14 won, 4 lost] [Q:2][M:2][C:1] Featylec Elendi (Zevox) [Power: 8349 (738); 5 won, 10 lost] [Q:4][C:1] LEVEL 11 CHARACTERS (MID) [FROZEN] [Old] Rhaegar (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=3520698) (Beldin): 9 won, 4 lost [Old] Rito Maya (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=2700349&postcount=10) (Moherajikuyx): 9 won, 16 lost Pard Longfellow (MysticMonk2005) [Power: 16128 (1008); 7 won, 12 lost] [Old] Tair Malek (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=3330034) (Sindorin): 7 won, 10 lost [2b] LEVEL 12 CHARACTERS (HIGH) [FROZEN] [Old] Octavian Cesar (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=2727392) (Barrel_master): 9 won, 12 lost [1b] [Old] Paul Hector (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=2727413) (Barrel_master): 10 won, 4 lost [Old] Dusk, Talon of Bahamut (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=2727215) (Ethendril): 8 won, 3 lost [2°/1m] [Old] Lillith (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=3134099) (freemoody): 11 won, 2 lost [Old] Enilias Surion (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=2722554) (Kaigan): 8 won, 10 lost [2b] [Old] Cyric Tor (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=3463844) (KerlanRayne): 10 won, 7 lost [Old] Zephin Telloran (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=2727759) (Myrridin): 10 won, 7 lost Kage Nightwind (One_Winged_Angel) [Power: 23820 (1054); 10 won, 6 lost] LEVEL 13 CHARACTERS (HIGH) [FROZEN] [Old] Iron the Panza (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=2700362&postcount=11) (Moherajikuyx): 11 won, 3 lost [3m] [Old] Toreilison Wevlun (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=2998243) (Magagumo): 6 won, 10 lost [4°/1b] [Old] Aemon (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=2792993) (Beldin): 10 won, 6 lost [Old] Delayar (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=3129621) (Beldin): 11 won, 3 lost [Old] Clěodhna d'Elrich (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=3004556) (LLMadCow): 5 won, 9 lost [3°/2b] [Old] Sven Enno (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=2723070) (Market_Share): 10 won, 6 lost [1b] [Old] SPIKE! (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=2723087) (Market_Share): 11 won, 3 lost [2m] [Old] Brackin Bonesnapper (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=2723577) (MotherBast): 10 won, 12 lost [1b] [Old] Dra'kel Mourning (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=2723549) (MotherBast): 10 won, 7 lost [1b] LEVEL 14 CHARACTERS (HIGH) [FROZEN] Ebelin Barnahdy (Caterane) [Power: 44212 (976); 11 won, 9 lost] [Old] Bloodmaiden Shiaan (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=4046419) (Cellardweller): 11 won, 6 lost [1b] [Old] Kiri'endelas (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=2727208) (Ethendril): 9 won, 3 lost [3°] [Old] Heinrich (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=2868527) (Hatzinger): 11 won, 6 lost [1b] [Old] Rhoar (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=2727094) (Jindl): 11 won, 5 lost [1b/1m] [Old] Arkin Jozil (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=2723435) (kattattack22): 12 won, 7 lost [Old] Candessa Rain (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=2723568) (MotherBast): 9 won, 13 lost [2b] [Old] Bilo Darkleaf (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=2722480) (SnarkHunter): 12 won, 9 lost LEVEL 15 CHARACTERS (HIGH) [FROZEN] [Old] Peter Patroclus (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=2727429) (Barrel_master): 13 won, 6 lost [Old] Aku (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=2727083) (Jindl): 13 won, 5 lost [Old] Zedarak (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=2726065) (Caterane): 5 won, 6 lost [9°] [Old] Johan Talyana (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=4046376) (Cellardweller): 14 won, 3 lost LEVEL 16 CHARACTERS (HIGH) [FROZEN] [Old] Bruno Wilikens (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=2728416) (Magagumo): 14 won, 8 lost [3m] [Old] Kelek (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=2788254) (Tellish_of_Ket): 14 won, 9 lost LEVEL 17 CHARACTERS (EPIC) [FROZEN] [Old] Donkey (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=2722513) (SnarkHunter): 10 won, 13 lost [4°/1b] LEVEL 18 CHARACTERS (EPIC) [FROZEN] [Old] Prof. Vandaeris Dre'Dandrahl (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=2726051) (Caterane): 15 won, 4 lost [1b] [Old] Corinthus Avius (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=2722346) (Druid Roxors): 15 won, 9 lost [1b] [Old] The Harvester (1st avatar) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=2726018) (Caterane): 16 won, 4 lost [2m] LEVEL 19 CHARACTERS (EPIC) [FROZEN] [Old] Angosh (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=2727690) (Pittbull): 12 won, 19 lost [5b] LEVEL 20 CHARACTERS (EPIC) [FROZEN] [Old] The Harvester (2nd avatar) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=2726039) (Caterane): 18 won, 3 lost [3m] [Champion] Character Status Descriptors [A] Character fights a Battle of Gladius [Ĺ] Character fights a Battle of Gladius with a challenge [Q] Character is on a Quest or Miniquest [C] Character is on a Campaign [X] Character is otherwise occupied [G] Character is on a Guild Battle [O] Character is on a Guild Operation [M] Character is on a Guild Mission [E] Extended Fight (from last week) [T] Character fights in a tournament [P] Character is in Prison [p] Imprissoned due to unfixed violation on another PC of yours [Late] Edited after the 9 pm CET deadline. [Old] Character from previous edition (frozen). Please contact the Game Master if you want to convert him. Power: a character's power relative to other PCs, and relative to average (1000) in parenthesis. Click <here>. [Failure], [Great Renown], etc are Reputation Tags. To link a single post: NAME or NAME The number (7 digits) may be found on your browser status bar when placing the mouse cursor over the "#" in the top right corner of the post or by hovering the mouse cursor over the quote button. GLADIUS GRAVEYARD http://www.caterane.de/CoCo/Struktur/Pfeil1.gif http://www.caterane.de/CoCo/Struktur/Grabstein.gif Initial credit assignments The minor changes to that list are covered in the following 10 or so posts after it.
McJarvis 06-12-07, 11:30 AM	@MWB - this is the snapshot of the Character Roster before my edits last week as promised. Would have sent it via PM - but it is a little much (28750 characters, or about 5-6 PMs... Now for a second there, I thought you meant there were 28k player characters....not letter characters. comical moment of my morning :)
MindWandererB 06-12-07, 11:58 AM	And a 3/day command word cloak of spell immunity is available at the bargain price of 30,240 gp. But you'd probably want the CL 8 version so you can pick two spells to which to be immune, which would set you back 34,560 gp. Hmm... I'd probably go for a ring, but there's a thought. The major downside: lycanthropes can't speak in hybrid or animal form. A command thought would work, but is inappropriate for a nonpsionic item. I'm not sure that spell is useful for quantifying the MM immunity, though. After all, shield produces that effect, plus an AC bonus, as a level 1 spell. In other news: Since no one's commented on it, I thought I'd draw attention to some of the new Ask Wizards items. Clarifications on Scorn Earth, using psi-like abilities to qualify for PrCs, and lots about soulknives.
Malither76 06-12-07, 01:48 PM	do I update my title line of my character that is crafting, like put ready for still crafting week 2 or whatever? and the EL 10's are open starting tomorrow correct, so I can set my characters active?
Zevox 06-12-07, 01:49 PM	do I update my title line of my character that is crafting, like put ready for still crafting week 2 or whatever? and the EL 10's are open starting tomorrow correct, so I can set my characters active? Yes to both. Zevox
McJarvis 06-12-07, 01:56 PM	I'm not sure that spell is useful for quantifying the MM immunity, though. After all, shield produces that effect, plus an AC bonus, as a level 1 spell. Yes, but there is already an item based off the shield spell that does what you're asking-> and it is charged[probably for balance reasons]. Your next best bet is spell immunity, or just grabbing charged feather-token brooches of shield like Reginald Molehusband does.
templer10 06-12-07, 01:57 PM	question - if i lost a fight By getting into uncounciosness from non lethal dmg - is a spell with long duration (6 hours) still running? i think so since i didnt die.
McJarvis 06-12-07, 02:00 PM	question - if i lost a fight By getting into uncounciosness from non lethal dmg - is a spell with long duration (6 hours) still running? i think so since i didnt die. I assumed that when gladiators get knocked unconcious they are CDG'd in the background & that actually ends the fight. I'm all for giving Lorian the long duration of share pain if someone else can confirm that this is legit.
templer10 06-12-07, 02:03 PM	I assumed that when gladiators get knocked unconcious they are CDG'd in the background & that actually ends the fight. I'm all for giving Lorian the long duration of share pain if someone else can confirm that this is legit. i always thought it's the same idia of an ally finishing a fight in the negetives but not stable or at -10 - he is still considered alive even if the fight ended at him at -9, same apply here- i cant do anything since iam at beyond 0 (non lethal) = i lost.
MindWandererB 06-12-07, 02:07 PM	I've never seen anyone play it that spells on you expire when you "die" in CoCo. Ongoing effects should continue to be ongoing.
McJarvis 06-12-07, 02:19 PM	Gamemaster approval = Share Pain is up. I'll add it to ongoing effects in just a second.
MindWandererB 06-12-07, 02:25 PM	Gamemaster approval = Share Pain is up. I'll add it to ongoing effects in just a second. I'd take it as a favor if you didn't do that. Just because I have an opinion doesn't mean it's the end of discussion. I'll only haul out the GM StickTM when it's the only way to reach a decision, or in those rare times when I think the popular opinion is just plain wrong.
McJarvis 06-12-07, 02:31 PM	I'd take it as a favor if you didn't do that. Just because I have an opinion doesn't mean it's the end of discussion. I'll only haul out the GM StickTM when it's the only way to reach a decision, or in those rare times when I think the popular opinion is just plain wrong. Gamemaster Approval Psych Grad Student Approval = Share Pain is up. Who are we to argue with smart people? :)
TelinArtho 06-12-07, 02:41 PM	I'd take it as a favor if you didn't do that. Just because I have an opinion doesn't mean it's the end of discussion. I'll only haul out the GM StickTM when it's the only way to reach a decision, or in those rare times when I think the popular opinion is just plain wrong. Well - I think it is more of a matter in this case that McJarvis needs to know how it has been done in the past. Presumably as GM - you would know - so your POV on it is helpful in getting a quick ruling. And for the record - I agree with you as well.
McJarvis 06-12-07, 02:48 PM	Well - I think it is more of a matter in this case that McJarvis needs to know how it has been done in the past. Presumably as GM - you would know - so your POV on it is helpful in getting a quick ruling. And for the record - I agree with you as well. Indeed-> I was just waiting for an elder/guildmaster/GM/old-timer to confirm it.
MindWandererB 06-12-07, 02:52 PM	Well - I think it is more of a matter in this case that McJarvis needs to know how it has been done in the past. Presumably as GM - you would know - so your POV on it is helpful in getting a quick ruling. And for the record - I agree with you as well. For McJarvis's edification, as well as everyone else's, you should treat me just like an elder when it comes to adjudications, most of the time. In other words, whenever I or any elder give a ruling, that ruling is the way you should go with it unless another elder expresses disagreement. When that happens, if no consensus is reached during the week, the decision becomes the pitlord's call for that fight and it goes to the Courtroom. In the case of a hotly contested decision, I'll look at everyone's opinions/votes and make a final decision, but it's rare when I have to do that.
Erithmu 06-12-07, 02:54 PM	For McJarvis's edification, as well as everyone else's, you should treat me just like an elder when it comes to adjudications, most of the time. In other words, whenever I or any elder give a ruling, that ruling is the way you should go with it unless another elder expresses disagreement. When that happens, if no consensus is reached during the week, the decision becomes the pitlord's call for that fight and it goes to the Courtroom. In the case of a hotly contested decision, I'll look at everyone's opinions/votes and make a final decision, but it's rare when I have to do that. This should be put at the front of the courtroom for general reference.
MindWandererB 06-12-07, 03:02 PM	This should be put at the front of the courtroom for general reference. Most of it already is... but there are a few points I can clarify there.
TelinArtho 06-12-07, 04:16 PM	I'm amazed... I don't see any requests from anyone to swap out Diplomacy ranks, since the skill is now useful only in conjunction with Knowledge (nobility & royalty). This is largely due to two reasons. As pointed out before (by me) - there's only a handful of characters who used diplomacy for diplomacy allies. Anakala was the only active one of mine and she was simply removed from the roster. Second, there is still a use for diplomacy - and that's for planar ally. Kraegin has a significant investment in diplomacy for this express purpose.
MindWandererB 06-12-07, 04:27 PM	This is largely due to two reasons. As pointed out before (by me) - there's only a handful of characters who used diplomacy for diplomacy allies. Anakala was the only active one of mine and she was simply removed from the roster.Kind of goes to show what a different environment the CoCo is than when Cat, Tellish, and the others like them were at large--when the CoCo was an offshoot of the CharOp board. It used to be that players would try to make the most of every rule they could find; now, we're more likely to ignore any options that we don't think should be allowed. In some ways, it might even be for the best to have had a change of GM... we're a very different bunch from those that Cat originally signed on with. (And ironic that the final straw came from Tellish, the other old-school optimizer).
Sunwolf 06-12-07, 04:49 PM	Question: Since the ECL10 league is opening up, should any ECL 10 characters that are in the middle of 3FC due to frozen operations, or missions or some such reset to the start of their 3FC?
SauroGrenom 06-12-07, 04:53 PM	Question: Since the ECL10 league is opening up, should any ECL 10 characters that are in the middle of 3FC due to frozen operations, or missions or some such reset to the start of their 3FC? I'm under the impression that you have to continue to close out the 3FC from where ever you are at now.
MindWandererB 06-12-07, 04:54 PM	Question: Since the ECL10 league is opening up, should any ECL 10 characters that are in the middle of 3FC due to frozen operations, or missions or some such reset to the start of their 3FC? No, they should be handled in the exact opposite manner as when a character reaches a frozen league mid-cycle. So any items they used while frozen are unavailable but restored at the end of the cycle. Spells and other per-day abilities are as normal.
SauroGrenom 06-12-07, 04:57 PM	MWB, Rules thread Allies I still lists diplomacy allies as valid allies. Also Allies II lists all the diplomacy allies available. If you are sure these are going now, then cut those out of the posts above so I can edit my characters and post in the Training Hall.
TelinArtho 06-12-07, 04:58 PM	In guilds, when upgrading a building (specifically a headquarter - from Chapter House to Keep for instance), does the building need to be at full HP before improving it? I assume it isn't "magically" healed when built up, but I want to know if I have to fix it first or if I can keep it in the same state of disrepair.
MindWandererB 06-12-07, 05:13 PM	In guilds, when upgrading a building (specifically a headquarter - from Chapter House to Keep for instance), does the building need to be at full HP before improving it? I assume it isn't "magically" healed when built up, but I want to know if I have to fix it first or if I can keep it in the same state of disrepair. It doesn't need to be fixed; when you spend 1000 GP to upgrade it, both its current and maximum HP are increased by 1000 (much like if you increase a creature's Con score). Exception: you can't upgrade a ruin. MWB, Rules thread Allies I still lists diplomacy allies as valid allies. Also Allies II lists all the diplomacy allies available. If you are sure these are going now, then cut those out of the posts above so I can edit my characters and post in the Training Hall.Fixed. Silly that I caught a bunch of the minor references, but forgot to take out the main ones! There are probably more that we'll catch over time.
TelinArtho 06-12-07, 05:52 PM	In light of the frozen leagues opening up, I offer my two level 10 characters up for audits: Kraegin Human Cleric of Denth 7/Thaumaturgist 3 (ECL10) Sir Valkin Human Fighter 1/Paladin 9 (ECL10) Neither one will be active this week - but I want to make sure I am ready to activate them soon.
Adolfo_Mondschein 06-12-07, 07:24 PM	Hmm... I'd probably go for a ring, but there's a thought. The major downside: lycanthropes can't speak in hybrid or animal form. A command thought would work, but is inappropriate for a nonpsionic item. I'm not sure that spell is useful for quantifying the MM immunity, though. After all, shield produces that effect, plus an AC bonus, as a level 1 spell. In other news: Since no one's commented on it, I thought I'd draw attention to some of the new Ask Wizards items. Clarifications on Scorn Earth, using psi-like abilities to qualify for PrCs, and lots about soulknives. Make the command word "Growl", "Bark!" or "Woof!". :) I've always hated the whole "NO TALKING!" thing they slapped on lycanthropy. A winterwolf can talk, a rakshasa can talk. So why can't a creature who's supposedly part human? I doubt you could call it unbalanced either.
Adolfo_Mondschein 06-12-07, 07:38 PM	Hi! Just finished (I think) my second character. Severin Dimblade AKA Dirge Dealer (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12695122&postcount=1154) Once again, feel free to poke at it until it bleeds with your sharp, pointy sticks of judgment! Thanks in advance! :P
Rauul 06-12-07, 07:52 PM	This is largely due to two reasons. As pointed out before (by me) - there's only a handful of characters who used diplomacy for diplomacy allies. Anakala was the only active one of mine and she was simply removed from the roster. Second, there is still a use for diplomacy - and that's for planar ally. Kraegin has a significant investment in diplomacy for this express purpose. And a 3rd use.. Political Career to offset the xp penalty from cohorts, and Animal followers.. and for Leadership allies
SauroGrenom 06-12-07, 08:47 PM	I'm sure I've asked this before, but I keep forgetting the answer. Can you use credits to buy a leadership cohort who has an alignment different from the restrictions in the SRD for the creature? Specifically I'd like to get a new version of Yaurl the Yeth Hound as a LE creature instead of a NE Creature. THe Yeth hound is a creature with an entry reading "Alignment: Always Neutral Evil". Lots of good reasons for doing it if allowed. But the question is if it's allowed or not?
Rauul 06-12-07, 09:06 PM	I'm sure I've asked this before, but I keep forgetting the answer. Can you use credits to buy a leadership cohort who has an alignment different from the restrictions in the SRD for the creature? Specifically I'd like to get a new version of Yaurl the Yeth Hound as a LE creature instead of a NE Creature. THe Yeth hound is a creature with an entry reading "Alignment: Always Neutral Evil". Lots of good reasons for doing it if allowed. But the question is if it's allowed or not? Is only -1 from your leadership score.. (level 10 +7 cha -2 familiar, -1 if different alignment) +2 if in a guild, +1 Special power +2 great renown) = 14-19 Leadership score.. Thats a Level 10 - 13 cohort.. Bigger than you can have anyways..
hogarth 06-12-07, 09:10 PM	Is only -1 from your leadership score.. (level 10 +7 cha -2 familiar, -1 if different alignment) +2 if in a guild, +1 Special power +2 great renown) = 14-19 Leadership score.. Thats a Level 10 - 13 cohort.. Bigger than you can have anyways.. Remember: the guild bonus only helps your leadership score for determining followers. The -1 for having a familiar and the -1 for different alignment don't apply to followers either.
SauroGrenom 06-12-07, 09:22 PM	Is only -1 from your leadership score.. (level 10 +7 cha -2 familiar, -1 if different alignment) +2 if in a guild, +1 Special power +2 great renown) = 14-19 Leadership score.. Thats a Level 10 - 13 cohort.. Bigger than you can have anyways.. I don't care so much about the leadership score. I want the cohort to have a lawful alignment so he could take levels in monk. That's the only way to get improved trip without going for a really high int. As an aside, there's also the question of the Yeth Hound's skills. The SRD has this creature with a total of 9 skill points invested in each of Spot, Listen, Search and Survival. It's only got 3hd. The total number of skill points is correct for the creature, but it exceeds the max skill points set by the HD.
NiQil 06-12-07, 09:29 PM	I don't care so much about the leadership score. I want the cohort to have a lawful alignment so he could take levels in monk. That's the only way to get improved trip without going for a really high int. As an aside, there's also the question of the Yeth Hound's skills. The SRD has this creature with a total of 9 skill points invested in each of Spot, Listen, Search and Survival. It's only got 3hd. The total number of skill points is correct for the creature, but it exceeds the max skill points set by the HD. If you add the level adjustment to it's hit dice, you get a total of ECL 6, which would make the 9 skill points correct if looked at in that fashion. Dunno if that is how you are supposed to look at it (haven't looked at the monster stuff in a while), but that appears to be where the math is coming from.
hogarth 06-12-07, 09:34 PM	I don't care so much about the leadership score. I want the cohort to have a lawful alignment so he could take levels in monk. That's the only way to get improved trip without going for a really high int. Wolf Totem barbarian is the other way, but that'd cost 10 credits.
Adolfo_Mondschein 06-12-07, 10:03 PM	If you add the level adjustment to it's hit dice, you get a total of ECL 6, which would make the 9 skill points correct if looked at in that fashion. Dunno if that is how you are supposed to look at it (haven't looked at the monster stuff in a while), but that appears to be where the math is coming from. Unfortunetly not, skill points and feats are based off hit dice and/or class levels. (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersAsRaces.html) <---link
Salrantol 06-12-07, 10:20 PM	Change Alignment: You can pay credits to change your current alignment. Alternatively, you can change the alignment on a race with an "Always <alignment>". For each step the new alignment is different from the old/normal one, you have to pay 5°. For example, you could pay 10° to play a true neutral succubus (1 step from Chaotic to Neutral and 1 from Evil to Neutral). Required class alignments can never be changed.Note that for the option for changing a racial alignment, it doesn't say anything about being your alignment, so I think it'd work to spend 5 credits for a Lawful Evil yeth hound.
Zevox 06-12-07, 10:34 PM	I'm sure I've asked this before, but I keep forgetting the answer. Can you use credits to buy a leadership cohort who has an alignment different from the restrictions in the SRD for the creature? Specifically I'd like to get a new version of Yaurl the Yeth Hound as a LE creature instead of a NE Creature. THe Yeth hound is a creature with an entry reading "Alignment: Always Neutral Evil". Lots of good reasons for doing it if allowed. But the question is if it's allowed or not? You can make PC characters with an alignment entry of "always" a different alignment by paying 5 credits per step, so logically that should be allowed for allies too. I know Cat payed 5 credits for a LN Imp familiar for his Wizard shortly before he left, so theres certainly precedent too. Zevox
Salrantol 06-12-07, 10:50 PM	Do all spells of a cleric's domain count as being on their spell list? For example, could a 1st-level cleric of the Trickery domain activate a scroll of invisibility with a CL check DC 4?
hogarth 06-12-07, 10:56 PM	Do all spells of a cleric's domain count as being on their spell list? For example, could a 1st-level cleric of the Trickery domain activate a scroll of invisibility with a CL check DC 4? He could certainly activate a divine scroll of invisibility (note that scrolls are divided into divine and arcane, unlike wands).
Zevox 06-12-07, 11:10 PM	Do all spells of a cleric's domain count as being on their spell list? For example, could a 1st-level cleric of the Trickery domain activate a scroll of invisibility with a CL check DC 4? No and yes, respectively. Their spells do not count as being on their normal spell list (else they could prepare them in non-domain slots even if they were not normally on their spell list), but because they have it as a domain spell they can cast it from scrolls, so long as those scrolls are divine ones (scribed by another Cleric, Druid, Paladin, or Ranger). Zevox
NiQil 06-12-07, 11:22 PM	No and yes, respectively. Their spells do not count as being on their normal spell list (else they could prepare them in non-domain slots even if they were not normally on their spell list), but because they have it as a domain spell they can cast it from scrolls, so long as those scrolls are divine ones (scribed by another Cleric, Druid, Paladin, or Ranger). Zevox Incorrect, as per the FAQ: To activate a spell completion or spell trigger item, the spell in the item must appear on your class spell list. How do you handle a cleric’s domain spells? Most deities have three or four domains, but a cleric chooses only two of them. Are only the spells from the domains the cleric has chosen on his class spell list for the purpose of activating these items? Or are the spells for all domains associated with the cleric’s deity on his class spell list? Also, which spells are on a specialist wizard’s class spell list? Do all wizard spells remain on the wizard class spell list, even when the wizard has chosen a specialty and his prohibited schools? If you’re a cleric, spells from the domains you have selected are part of your class spell list. Spells from domains you could have selected, but did not, are not part of your class spell list (unless you get them on your class spell list some other way, such as by gaining another domain or adding another class). Spells from a specialist wizard’s prohibited schools are not part of his class spell list. What you are referring to is this rule: With access to two domain spells at a given spell level, a cleric prepares one or the other each day in his domain spell slot. If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, a cleric can prepare it only in his domain spell slot. This does not say that you can only prepare domain spells in domain slots. It says that if the spell in the domain is not normally on the cleric list, then it can only go in the domain slot. An example of this would be Produce Flame from the Fire Domain. But a spell such as Bull's Strength, which is already on the cleric list, may be prepared in either the domain slot or a normal slot.
TelinArtho 06-13-07, 11:30 AM	Oh Joy ... Bring it on ... just don't roll like last time. Well - the difference in equipment selection is certainly significant. Just look at the half-fiend medusa - from 24kgp down to 12kgp - that means no deck of illusions to set up the encounter, no frost on her shortbow, probably drop the glamered portion of the chain shirt. Your upcoming encounter is no picnic - for sure. But at least it probably doesn't have a save or die gaze effect... probably...
Zevox 06-13-07, 01:27 PM	@ TM - Looks like I'm only missing WAR's CAPs for the Guilds this week. Please don't forget to get those in before the deadline! Zevox
Guildlords 06-13-07, 03:35 PM	@ TM/McJarvis - I'm still missing any CAPs from WAR for the week. If neither of you get them in within th next half hour, they're late! Zevox
McJarvis 06-13-07, 03:41 PM	:rolleyes:
SauroGrenom 06-13-07, 04:06 PM	Mitza, FYI Willowmoon doesn't qualify for deflect arrows. Due to a recent FAQ update, natural attacks are not equal to the INA feat. So you cannot get deflect arrows without the INA feat.
Macbrea 06-13-07, 07:06 PM	Crazy question, Does Yorick's ghost sounds [CL 3] at will allow him to place the sound of 12 other derro hiding about the area? And if so, does that mean a Dire Bat's echo location would pinpoint 13 different targets in that location?
McJarvis 06-13-07, 07:08 PM	Crazy question, Does Yorick's ghost sounds [CL 3] at will allow him to place the sound of 12 other derro hiding about the area? And if so, does that mean a Dire Bat's echo location would pinpoint 13 different targets in that location? Why would echo location be affected by that? You'd need to use ghost sounds to mimic the sound of the bat.
Macbrea 06-13-07, 07:10 PM	I don't own the bat. I have a +29 hide and have ghost sounds. Echolocation of blindsense is blinded by deafening the opponent. I was asking if I make the sound of 12 different derro hiding to make the bat guess that I am in 1 of 13 squares.
McJarvis 06-13-07, 07:16 PM	I don't own the bat. I have a +29 hide and have ghost sounds. Echolocation of blindsense is blinded by deafening the opponent. I was asking if I make the sound of 12 different derro hiding to make the bat guess that I am in 1 of 13 squares. My understanding of echo location is that the bat itself sends out a sound, then "hears" the sound bouncing off stuff around it. This tells the bat where things are. It has nothing to do with the sounds the object the sound bounces off of makes.
MindWandererB 06-13-07, 07:20 PM	My understanding of echo location is that the bat itself sends out a sound, then "hears" the sound bouncing off stuff around it. This tells the bat where things are. It has nothing to do with the sounds the object the sound bounces off of makes. Good point. Unless you have blindsense yourself, you'd have no idea what echolocation sounds like. And even then, it would probably sound different from difference species.
Macbrea 06-13-07, 07:20 PM	Hmm, will have to figure out the real use of that.... should help for sniping I would guess... 13 random shots from different squares all DC 0 to hear?
McJarvis 06-13-07, 07:21 PM	Hmm, will have to figure out the real use of that.... should help for sniping I would guess... 13 random shots from different squares all DC 0 to hear? If it wasn't for delay rules, I'd just torture my opponent by continuously making attacking noises from 1 square every round & just sit there watching him :)
Macbrea 06-13-07, 07:23 PM	Well.. I am allowed to snipe with all that racket... Probably only method a sniper will work under the DC 0 listen check rule.
McJarvis 06-13-07, 07:24 PM	Well.. I am allowed to snipe with all that racket... Probably only method a sniper will work under the DC 0 listen check rule. Silence spell on bards works pretty good too.
Macbrea 06-13-07, 07:24 PM	True.. just looking at my options vs a great renown druid two levels higher then me. :P
Macbrea 06-13-07, 07:33 PM	Heh.. your not allowed to help.. You running, but good to get your clarification before I wrote that tactic.
McJarvis 06-13-07, 07:37 PM	Right..my bad. didn't see that I have the [D%#@$!] fight ;)
Zevox 06-13-07, 08:57 PM	General Zaroff (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11834563&postcount=1094) would like to move two skill points around: 2 from Knowledge(Arcana)(cc) to Spellcraft(cc). This is so that he may legally read the ranger scrolls he buys as expendables. [free change] McJarvis, unless he takes two more Ranger levels, he can't use such scrolls anyway - no caster level/ability. If the note on his sheet is any indication, hes not taking such levels, so the only thing you'd gain from this change is the small chance to ID enemy spells. Zevox
McJarvis 06-13-07, 08:58 PM	General Zaroff will require a QL to quest to be trained by a Warmind. I'd love for it to be a quest tied with the PSI guild, since he already has some RP going on over being the "General" of the troops of PSI.
McJarvis 06-13-07, 08:58 PM	McJarvis, unless he takes two more Ranger levels, he can't use such scrolls anyway - no caster level/ability. If the note on his sheet is any indication, hes not taking such levels, so the only thing you'd gain from this change is the small chance to ID enemy spells. Zevox Is he incapable of using wands from the ranger spellist too? I've never done much with rangers.
Zevox 06-13-07, 09:02 PM	Is he incapable of using wands from the ranger spellist too? I've never done much with rangers. Wands he can use - those just require that he have the spell on his class list, not that he be able to cast spells already. Scrolls require that you actually have a caster level already, though. Here, theres even an SRD statement about spell trigger items (wands are such) that spells this out: Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) Zevox
Usurpator 06-14-07, 06:31 AM	Each domain gives the cleric access to a domain spell at each spell level he can cast, from 1st on up, as well as a granted power. The cleric gets the granted powers of both the domains selected. With access to two domain spells at a given spell level, a cleric prepares one or the other each day in his domain spell slot. If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, a cleric can prepare it only in his domain spell slot This does not say that you can only prepare domain spells in domain slots. It says that if the spell in the domain is not normally on the cleric list, then it can only go in the domain slot. An example of this would be Produce Flame from the Fire Domain. But a spell such as Bull's Strength, which is already on the cleric list, may be prepared in either the domain slot or a normal slot. To me it does say that. It specifically says that you prepare one of either in your domain spell slot. It doesn't say 'one *or* the other *or* a regular cleric spell' it just says 'one or the other'. I haven't met anyone who interprets the rule in the way you do. Just because it doesn't say you can't in the rules, doesn't mean you can (to repeat one half of my D&D adagium). For example: it also doesn't say you can't prepare paladin spells in your domain slot, but I'm pretty sure you can't.
NiQil 06-14-07, 07:44 AM	To me it does say that. It specifically says that you prepare one of either in your domain spell slot. It doesn't say 'one *or* the other *or* a regular cleric spell' it just says 'one or the other'. I haven't met anyone who interprets the rule in the way you do. Just because it doesn't say you can't in the rules, doesn't mean you can (to repeat one half of my D&D adagium). For example: it also doesn't say you can't prepare paladin spells in your domain slot, but I'm pretty sure you can't. No one was talking about putting non-domain spells in domain slots. We were talking about putting domain spells in non-domain slots. I'm not exactly sure how you managed to read the exact opposite of what we are talking about.... If a domain spell is on the normal cleric list, then it may be prepared in either a domain slot or a non-domain slot. If a domain spell is not on the normal cleric list, then it may only be prepared in the domain slot.
Usurpator 06-14-07, 08:51 AM	If a domain spell is on the normal cleric list, then it may be prepared in either a domain slot or a non-domain slot. If a domain spell is not on the normal cleric list, then it may only be prepared in the domain slot. Yeah, but that seems really obvious, it's not like if you have a regular cleric spell on your domain spell list, that you're suddenly forbidden from casting it regularly. I think I got confused that I misunderstood what you meant, sorry.
Erithmu 06-14-07, 09:06 AM	Can you use Power Attack on a 1) Readied action 2) AoO? I'm not talking about if you have already made attacks, but one something where the readied action is waiting for someone to get in melee range. the issue I'm running into is does a readied action make it 'your action' or is the readied action a triggered event that still takes place on the opponent's action.
McJarvis 06-14-07, 09:29 AM	Can you use Power Attack on a 1) Readied action 2) AoO? I'm not talking about if you have already made attacks, but one something where the readied action is waiting for someone to get in melee range. the issue I'm running into is does a readied action make it 'your action' or is the readied action a triggered event that still takes place on the opponent's action. You make the decision on how much you're going to subtract on your turn, before you make any attack rolls for the round. It doesn't say you actually had to make attack rolls-> but so long as the gladiator decided on his turn to make the power attack, then the AoO's and readied actions can(& have to) carry it.
McJarvis 06-14-07, 09:43 AM	Price check: looking to buy alchemical silvered arrows for Zaroff. Is it +2 gp per 20(one stack) or +2 gp per arrow? edit-> Additional question: Does anything prevent me from having him wear 183 different quivers, one for each arrow? [since quivers are "free"] Logically it doesn't make sense, but many carrying situations don't-> and it would protect me from "enemy sundering my quiver" syndrome.
Zevox 06-14-07, 09:58 AM	Price check: looking to buy alchemical silvered arrows for Zaroff. Is it +2 gp per 20(one stack) or +2 gp per arrow? edit-> Additional question: Does anything prevent me from having him wear 183 different quivers, one for each arrow? [since quivers are "free"] Logically it doesn't make sense, but many carrying situations don't-> and it would protect me from "enemy sundering my quiver" syndrome. +2 gp per arrow, so 20 will cost 41 gp. I think you'd have a hell of a time explaining how you fit that many quivers on your body... Zevox
McJarvis 06-14-07, 10:00 AM	Thx on silver arrow answer I think you'd have a hell of a time explaining how you fit that many quivers on your body... The same way people already justify keeping 200 arrows, 5 weapons, 15 magical items, and 20+ scrolls on their body? Each "quiver" would only need to be a sleeve with some fasteners/hooks to keep them on my clothing.
hogarth 06-14-07, 10:01 AM	Price check: looking to buy alchemical silvered arrows for Zaroff. Is it +2 gp per 20(one stack) or +2 gp per arrow? edit-> Additional question: Does anything prevent me from having him wear 183 different quivers, one for each arrow? [since quivers are "free"] Logically it doesn't make sense, but many carrying situations don't-> and it would protect me from "enemy sundering my quiver" syndrome. (1) 20 gp per weapon translates to 20 gp per 10 arrow quiver = 2 gp per arrow. (2) I had the exact same idea for spell components: Can I put my rose petals/pinches of bat guano/bits of fur and amber in my pockets instead of one easily sundered pouch?
McJarvis 06-14-07, 10:34 AM	(2) I had the exact same idea for spell components: Can I put my rose petals/pinches of bat guano/bits of fur and amber in my pockets instead of one easily sundered pouch? I certainly have no problem with this. I suppose since the rules don't forbid it[and certainly gladiators are allowed to have pockets...], we're free to do whatever, right? Of course, *techinically* I only have 20 quivers at present[since I bought 200 arrows originally), but over time I'll get more and more! [reasoning: each bundle of 20 arrows is really 20 arrows+a quiver. only way to buy quivers, too..] ~McJ~
Usurpator 06-14-07, 12:09 PM	I certainly have no problem with this. I suppose since the rules don't forbid it[and certainly gladiators are allowed to have pockets...], we're free to do whatever, right? Of course, *techinically* I only have 20 quivers at present[since I bought 200 arrows originally), but over time I'll get more and more! [reasoning: each bundle of 20 arrows is really 20 arrows+a quiver. only way to buy quivers, too..] ~McJ~ I'd prefer to make carried but not held/used objects not sunderable. I would rather have that then gladiators walking around with 20 quivers, 30 holy symbols and specifications that the contents of their spell component pouches are spread across their pockets.
Hirumajoe 06-14-07, 12:24 PM	I'd prefer to make carried but not held/used objects not sunderable. I would rather have that then gladiators walking around with 20 quivers, 30 holy symbols and specifications that the contents of their spell component pouches are spread across their pockets. Although that might have other unintended consequences. Because then you can't sunder your opponent's ring of protection +5, amulet of natural armor +5, gloves of dexterity +6, monk's belt, (all of which would presumably have lower ACs than the actual magically enhanced character). Thats a legit tactic as it stands right now, no? Or maybe I'm reading "not used objects" incorrectly. The other option is in fact to setup some house rules defining the maximum amount a character can carry "bulk" wise as opposed to weight wise. Sure, a character can technically carry a million scrolls since they're weightless, but what table top GM would allow a wizard to do so without the aid of a *really* big bag of holding or something similar? It'd actually give people incentive to pick up efficient quivers and Handy Haversacks, which always seem to be one of the first items I pick up in table top games... Hmm... Are you allowed to sunder the weightless outfit everyone comes with, to which all these quivers and pockets are presumably attached? :)
TelinArtho 06-14-07, 12:33 PM	I'd prefer to make carried but not held/used objects not sunderable. I would rather have that then gladiators walking around with 20 quivers, 30 holy symbols and specifications that the contents of their spell component pouches are spread across their pockets. Well that would certainly be a house rule. As it stands, even against characters who sunder often, it is rare to see people sunder those items. The most common is probably the holy symbol or the spell component pouches. In reality - it is "better" to keep these as legal targets so that opponents can plan accordingly rather than just saying that there is no way to prevent a spellcaster from using their spells. Some characters actively think about this - most of my priests/druids carry at least an extra holy symbol, and my spellcasters usually carry an extra spell component pouch if they have a lot of spells that rely on cheap components. Look at Balthazar - he picks up the sand he needs as a prefight action each fight. While I don't want to see someone carrying 20 quivers, it really isn't that big of a deal unless the character is also carrying around 20 bows...
Hirumajoe 06-14-07, 12:39 PM	While I don't want to see someone carrying 20 quivers, it really isn't that big of a deal unless the character is also carrying around 20 bows... Of course those bows have appreciable weight. Although looking at my own characters, Valen is carrying around 2 Bows, 2 Daggers, 18 Javelins, 2 Quarter Staves, 2 Spears, a Greatsword, and 190 arrows. Addmittedly, he's got an efficient quiver, but he's still got 7 other quivers... Although interestingly, now that I think about it, other than the weight factor, the efficient quiver is actually a rather large disadvantage. Since its a single sunder target. Normally in a table top game it would make it sensible to be carrying 60 or more arrows with such an item, but if you've got unlimited "bulk" room, then you can easily carry 200 arrows without a real problem, even if the character should look rediculous...
Usurpator 06-14-07, 12:59 PM	Although that might have other unintended consequences. Because then you can't sunder your opponent's ring of protection +5, amulet of natural armor +5, gloves of dexterity +6, monk's belt, (all of which would presumably have lower ACs than the actual magically enhanced character). Thats a legit tactic as it stands right now, no? Or maybe I'm reading "not used objects" incorrectly. That would not be legit tactics as far as I'm concerned. And it doesn't make sense that the belt is easier to hit than the whole character. All those items protect the characters and the equipment he's carrying. Hmm... Are you allowed to sunder the weightless outfit everyone comes with, to which all these quivers and pockets are presumably attached? :) Sure, why can't clothing be sundered. Bur it would only result in myself adding a standard clause to all my characters that their clothes/outfit consists of several different pieces (thus counting as separate objects and requiring separate sunder checks). I would also include that the characters wear several layers of clothing, and that any appreciable items (like that belt and amulet) are hidden beneath those layers. Of course, the ring would be covered by a gauntlet/glove, and furthermore, I would start to wear multiple nonmagical rings, amulets and bracers, just to confuse the possible sunderer further. I'd rather not include such things of course, but will do so if such tactics are consider legit and actually used.
McJarvis 06-14-07, 01:05 PM	Eskimo gladiator fighting!
Hirumajoe 06-14-07, 01:16 PM	That would not be legit tactics as far as I'm concerned. And it doesn't make sense that the belt is easier to hit than the whole character. All those items protect the characters and the equipment he's carrying. From the sunder rules: Sundering a Carried or Worn Object You don’t use an opposed attack roll to damage a carried or worn object. Instead, just make an attack roll against the object’s AC. A carried or worn object’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier + the Dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character. Attacking a carried or worn object provokes an attack of opportunity just as attacking a held object does. To attempt to snatch away an item worn by a defender rather than damage it, see Disarm. You can’t sunder armor worn by another character. By the sunder rules, a carried/worn object has an AC of 10 + size modifier + character's dex modifier. It does not gain the benefit of any of the character's other AC modifiers. The only type of worn/carried equipment which cannot be sundered is armor. As for hiding equipment on your person, that requires a sleight of hand check opposed by a spot (or the unlikely case of a search check). In general it would be your sleight of hand +6 vs your opponent's spot check for a ring or amulet. You can hide a small object (including a light weapon or an easily concealed ranged weapon, such as a dart, sling, or hand crossbow) on your body. Your Sleight of Hand check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone observing you or the Search check of anyone frisking you. In the latter case, the searcher gains a +4 bonus on the Search check, since it’s generally easier to find such an object than to hide it. A dagger is easier to hide than most light weapons, and grants you a +2 bonus on your Sleight of Hand check to conceal it. An extraordinarily small object, such as a coin, shuriken, or ring, grants you a +4 bonus on your Sleight of Hand check to conceal it, and heavy or baggy clothing (such as a cloak) grants you a +2 bonus on the check. In the case of multiple piecies of jewelry, they would have to look identical, but I suppose would work. Only counter in that case I can think of is a detect magic item.
TelinArtho 06-14-07, 01:18 PM	That would not be legit tactics as far as I'm concerned. And it doesn't make sense that the belt is easier to hit than the whole character. All those items protect the characters and the equipment he's carrying. Sure, why can't clothing be sundered. Bur it would only result in myself adding a standard clause to all my characters that their clothes/outfit consists of several different pieces (thus counting as separate objects and requiring separate sunder checks). I would also include that the characters wear several layers of clothing, and that any appreciable items (like that belt and amulet) are hidden beneath those layers. Of course, the ring would be covered by a gauntlet/glove, and furthermore, I would start to wear multiple nonmagical rings, amulets and bracers, just to confuse the possible sunderer further. I'd rather not include such things of course, but will do so if such tactics are consider legit and actually used. First off, you can't sunder armor - so by extension - anything under the armor is not sunderable. Secondly, you can do so right now if you like Usurpator but bear in mind extra items have more weight and cost more money. If you want to spend the extra money on it and carry the extra weight - go ahead. Just bear in mind just how many people actually make use of sunder tactics for things more than just the standard sunder-the-weapon tactic... The tactics are legit - but saying they are used often would be a stretch. I think I've heard of three fights with the "sunder the quiver" trick - and two of them were Cat's fights. I've seen holy symbols be sundered two or three times and the same applies to spell component pouches. I don't think I've seen anyone try to sunder anything beyond those and the things the opponent has in hand (weapons, wands, scrolls, powerstones, dorjes, etc).
McJarvis 06-14-07, 01:18 PM	As for hiding equipment on your person, that requires a sleight of hand check opposed by a spot (or the unlikely case of a search check). Even then, if you have clothing that _covers_ the item in question, then your opponent would need LOE/S to be able to target it with an attack. Hence the "hiding rings under mundane gloves" bit. ~McJ~
Macbrea 06-14-07, 01:20 PM	As a person cannot identify a ring is magical without casting and maintaining detect magic on the item for 3 rounds that isn't a very effective method of deterimining it. As most opponents won't let you concentrate for 3 rounds.
Macbrea 06-14-07, 01:21 PM	Lord Frost has had his Belt of Giant strength sundered before.
Hirumajoe 06-14-07, 01:30 PM	Even then, if you have clothing that _covers_ the item in question, then your opponent would need LOE/S to be able to target it with an attack. Hence the "hiding rings under mundane gloves" bit. ~McJ~ If cloth or leather is enough to block LOE and LOS after the target's location has been determined, I should start carrying blankets and throw them over myself everytime I engage a save-or-die mage. :) I mean, I'm not carrying them, they're just covering me, right?
McJarvis 06-14-07, 01:32 PM	If cloth or leather is enough to block LOE and LOS after the target's location has been determined, I should start carrying blankets and throw them over myself everytime I engage a save-or-die mage. :) I mean, I'm not carrying them, they're just covering me, right? Spells are different: they can go through tower shields.
Hirumajoe 06-14-07, 01:33 PM	Spells are different: they can go through tower shields. So I can use the blanket method for complete defense against a fighter then? If completely being encased in armor meant you didn't have LOE and LOS to anything under it, how they heck do you ever hurt a character in full plate? Clearly, attacks "go through" armor and clothing, even if you can't technically even see the opponent under it. Edit: By the way, I agree, in real life if something is under a steel gauntlet, you'd clearly have to break the gauntlet before you get to the ring. But D&D rules are rather abstract and work differently. Armor doesn't protect carried/worn items, or at least doesn't provide them AC. And if you want to go real life rules, then we shouldn't be running around with 20 quivers in the first place. :)
Usurpator 06-14-07, 01:39 PM	Secondly, you can do so right now if you like Usurpator but bear in mind extra items have more weight and cost more money. If you want to spend the extra money on it and carry the extra weight - go ahead. The money required for non-magical clothing and cheap jewelry is negligible, maybe 50-100 gp. worth. As for the extra weight, you set of clothes doesn't add weight, and a courtiers or travelers outfit may have many different pieces and layers. Rings and amulets don't have any appreciable weight according to the SRD. So not a biggie. Just bear in mind just how many people actually make use of sunder tactics for things more than just the standard sunder-the-weapon tactic... That is what I prefer to rely on, people not getting crazy with sunder tactics so that others don't have to get crazy with 20 quivers, 20 holy symbols and 20 amulets each. The tactics are legit - but saying they are used often would be a stretch. I think I've heard of three fights with the "sunder the quiver" trick - and two of them were Cat's fights. I've seen holy symbols be sundered two or three times and the same applies to spell component pouches. I don't think I've seen anyone try to sunder anything beyond those and the things the opponent has in hand (weapons, wands, scrolls, powerstones, dorjes, etc). That would certainly be my preference. In any case, my characters won't sunder anything except stuff held in hand/wielded by opponents. I've seen the sundering of holy symbols most often, which is why my clerics carry two now, just to discourage people a bit. Of course, for just 1 gp. per symbol, and no weight, I suppose I could also get 20 of them if I thought it necessary.
Macbrea 06-14-07, 01:40 PM	Items under armor have full cover and therefore cannot be targeted by an attack. This is because their size is much smaller then that of the armor. A person wearing armor is got special rules. :P
MindWandererB 06-14-07, 01:44 PM	So then, should I equip all my characters with ponchos?
Usurpator 06-14-07, 01:45 PM	By the way, I agree, in real life if something is under a steel gauntlet, you'd clearly have to break the gauntlet before you get to the ring. But D&D rules are rather abstract and work differently. Armor doesn't protect carried/worn items, or at least doesn't provide them AC. And if you want to go real life rules, then we shouldn't be running around with 20 quivers in the first place. :) I think the problem is, that in regular D&D you won't often see people sunder some specific item because they don't have any information about said items. In CoCo we know exactly what our opponents are equipped with, and thus might be tempted to take certain items out of the equation by sunder. And of course, in TT games if people *do know* that fighter is carrying a belt of giant strength +4, they certainly won't start sundering it ;)
Usurpator 06-14-07, 01:46 PM	So then, should I equip all my characters with ponchos? With Poncho's you need a move action to get any material components or two move actions to draw a weapon. :P
Macbrea 06-14-07, 01:47 PM	Since, a poncho is just concealment I would think it would just be a miss chance of hitting anything under it. Unless of course you are attacking with water.
Macbrea 06-14-07, 01:49 PM	Actually, in a TT game how many people have had a sunder style character even in their games? My group would have a fit if one of the players just sundered every item they couldn't personally use.
Hirumajoe 06-14-07, 01:50 PM	That is what I prefer to rely on, people not getting crazy with sunder tactics so that others don't have to get crazy with 20 quivers, 20 holy symbols and 20 amulets each. For most fights currently, it really isn't necessary to sunder a ring of protection +2 or a amulet of natural armor +2. The payoff of the attack (probably one of two at most) for a +2 to hit bonus isn't that great. However, once you start getting to the higher levels, straight fighter types may not have much of a choice or be a big bonus for one of their later attacks in a full attack. By level 20, many character can easily exceed 40 AC. 10 + 5 (Deflection) + 5 (Natural) +13 (Plate Armor +5) + 3 (Dex) + 7 (Shield) =43 just for non-caster types. A maxed out Fighter has what for to-hit with a primary weapon at level 20? +20 (BAB) + 6 (STR) +3 (+6 Belt of Str) +5 (Weapon Enh) +2 (Weapon Focuses) = +36? Sundering a ring of Protection +5 to drop your opponent from 43 AC to 38 AC is a sizable chunk in that case. Using your 4th attack at +23 to hit (with +4 for Improved Sunder) vs a 10 + 3 (size) + Dex is probably a better bet then hoping for 20s. It'll be interesting to see how tactics evolve in the higher ECLs certainly.
Usurpator 06-14-07, 01:52 PM	As seen in the CoCo: ;) "The two gladiators are approaching each other, sword drawn. Mike has the initiative, he strikes at his opponent with his adamantite greatsword. Ooooh! He bypasses Tidalt's steel gauntlet and cuts his gold ring in two without drawing a drop of blood. Tidalt is upset and retaliates with his Glaive cutting right through Mike's leather belt. It's war now! Mike swings his greatsword at Tidalt's chest and expertly destroys the amulet he was wearing their without so much as scratching the flesh or touching the clothing. Impressive stuff here."
Hirumajoe 06-14-07, 01:54 PM	Actually, in a TT game how many people have had a sunder style character even in their games? My group would have a fit if one of the players just sundered every item they couldn't personally use. Actually, sunder style NPCs are great as villians. Watch as the Fighters cower in fear of engaging in melee with them. :D And technically, a mage with a permanent Arcane Sight would have little trouble pointing out magic items to his fellow fighters. But then, you are right, most groups would specifically *not* sunder said items... Edit: Actually, the ultimate NPC villian - A sundering adamantine Greatsword wielding Eldritch Knight. With the ability to cast Anti-magic field...
Macbrea 06-14-07, 01:56 PM	Gms creating sunder style NPCs are doing so to deprive their player of some item the needs to be removed. You will notice that said NPC will always go after such an offending item almost immediately.
Usurpator 06-14-07, 01:59 PM	Edit: Actually, the ultimate NPC villian - A sundering adamantine Greatsword wielding Eldritch Knight. With the ability to cast Anti-magic field... You are forgetting that he starts off by casting Mordenkainen's Disjunction.
Zevox 06-14-07, 02:07 PM	I've got to admit, when writing Asran's tactics vs Raskos today, I was tempted to sunder his headband of intellect +6 to knock the saves on his spells down a tad and lose him some pp. The image of a 7 foot muscle-bound Half-Fiend swinging a flaming hell-forged greataxe at a frail old Elf's head and somehow just cutting his headband in half is a rather comical one. :D For the record, I decided against that for a variety of reasons, including the fact that said image was too ridiculous for my tastes. Zevox
McJarvis 06-14-07, 03:35 PM	All this talk is getting me thinking. What happens if 1) You sunder a saddle while the rider is in it? 2) You try to sunder with a held charge?[unarmed strike?] 3) You sunder someone's belt[do they lose their scrolls/powerstones/etc?] 4) You sunder someone's scrollcase[I'm assuming that's how we keep scrolls?]
Macbrea 06-14-07, 03:48 PM	1) Easy enough.. all ride checks are at -5 2) Generally you can only sunder with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon 3) They loose their belt. As we don't require to list locations of all other objects. It is the only item lost. 4) All scrolls drop to ground. It should be noted that this won't damage the scrolls..
McJarvis 06-14-07, 03:55 PM	1) Easy enough.. all ride checks are at -5 2) Generally you can only sunder with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon 3) They loose their belt. As we don't require to list locations of all other objects. It is the only item lost. 4) All scrolls drop to ground. It should be noted that this won't damage the scrolls.. #3 & #4 are contradictory. Either we assume equipment is in valid holders(belt, scroll-case, quivers, etc) even when it's not listed, or we don't. ?
Macbrea 06-14-07, 04:00 PM	In truth, all items should have a location on the character sheet. We failed long ago to add such a requirement to the sheet. A scroll case may be empty and the scrolls could be all tucked into the belt. In the case of the belt, if no items are listed on the belt. What items can we assume are on the belt? Only those items that the player vointeered to be on their belt. So, in truth it is best not to tell wear any of your items are on your character sheet and just complain when the pitlord takes a full round action to pull it from the backpack.
McJarvis 06-14-07, 04:05 PM	I think the most reasonable thing to presume would be that all equipped items are targetable for sunders: but a sunder can not result in a character dropping items. But that would be a house-rule.
Macbrea 06-14-07, 04:13 PM	Do you need to sunder each arrow indivudually within the quiver? If so, then it would of course make that tactic pretty invalid to even strike the quiver.
McJarvis 06-14-07, 04:16 PM	Do you need to sunder each arrow indivudually within the quiver? If so, then it would of course make that tactic pretty invalid to even strike the quiver. That's what I would suggest. Or if people *really* wanted to sunder arrows, we could make a house rule that they sunder 20 at a time. Regardless: I think that sundering containers should be avoided.[quivers, belts, pouches, backpacks, spell component pouches], but sundering other objects[headbands, rings, holy symbols, etc] is perfectly fine. Ruling that all worn objects[other than armor] are sunderable & can not be "Blocked" by packaging[including armor] makes sense to me. [from a logistical standpoint]
Malither76 06-14-07, 06:52 PM	is the spells in a ring of spell storing always at minimum caster level or does it have the caster level of the person that cast the spell, Like if you use NPC services and get a 20th level caster for a shield of faith is it treated as by a 1st level caster?
MindWandererB 06-14-07, 06:56 PM	is the spells in a ring of spell storing always at minimum caster level or does it have the caster level of the person that cast the spell, Like if you use NPC services and get a 20th level caster for a shield of faith is it treated as by a 1st level caster? Spell Storing, Minor: A minor ring of spell storing contains up to three levels of spells that the wearer can cast. Each spell has a caster level equal to the minimum level needed to cast that spell. The user need not provide any material components or focus, or pay an XP cost to cast the spell, and there is no arcane spell failure chance for wearing armor (because the ring wearer need not gesture). The activation time for the ring is same as the casting time for the relevant spell, with a minimum of 1 standard action. For a randomly generated ring, treat it as a scroll to determine what spells are stored in it. If you roll a spell that would put the ring over the three-level limit, ignore that roll; the ring has no more spells in it. (Not every newly discovered ring need be fully charged.) A spellcaster can cast any spells into the ring, so long as the total spell levels do not add up to more than three. Metamagic versions of spells take up storage space equal to their spell level modified by the metamagic feat. A spellcaster can use a scroll to put a spell into the minor ring of spell storing. The ring magically imparts to the wearer the names of all spells currently stored within it.I didn't know that, either.
Malither76 06-14-07, 06:58 PM	yeah I know, could it be modified with a extend spell
TheMagister 06-14-07, 10:00 PM	is the spells in a ring of spell storing always at minimum caster level or does it have the caster level of the person that cast the spell, Like if you use NPC services and get a 20th level caster for a shield of faith is it treated as by a 1st level caster? Oh bloody hell. I think Rubicanti needs a refund. His CL 10 chill touches don't work (very efficiently) in his custom rings. !$!^!#$!~$!!!!
NiQil 06-14-07, 10:04 PM	Oh bloody hell. I think Rubicanti needs a refund. His CL 10 chill touches don't work (very efficiently) in his custom rings. !$!^!#$!~$!!!! "And in other news, the stalworth gladiator known as Rubicanti was seen weeping openly while haggling with a merchant today. It is unknown at this time what was being haggled over. However, an eyewitness did report that Rubicanti kept pointing to a ring on his finger before bursting in to tears all over again. More on this story as it develops."
TheMagister 06-15-07, 12:46 AM	"And in other news, the stalwart child gladiator known as Rubicanti was seen weeping piteously openly while haggling with a merchant today. It is unknown at this time what was being haggled over. However, an eyewitness did report that Rubicanti kept pointing to a ring on his finger before bursting in to tears all over again. More on this story as it develops." :tantrum:
Malither76 06-15-07, 04:57 AM	can NPC services for spell casting be used in cycle between fights? If you pay to have a weapon upgraded from +1 to +3 are you without the weapon for 3 weeks? Can a NPC cast a personal spell for you into a storage device like the ring of storing or spell storing weapons? If an NPC can't can an ally?
Rauul 06-15-07, 06:02 AM	"And in other news, the stalworth gladiator known as Rubicanti was seen weeping openly while haggling with a merchant today. It is unknown at this time what was being haggled over. However, an eyewitness did report that Rubicanti kept pointing to a ring on his finger before bursting in to tears all over again. More on this story as it develops." is this before or after the merchants Shop, house, family was burnt to the ground?
TheMagister 06-15-07, 06:12 AM	Nah. That's concentrated anger. The tears of concentrated sorrow puts out the flames of battle. :(
Rauul 06-15-07, 06:39 AM	Nah. That's concentrated anger. The tears of concentrated sorrow puts out the flames of battle. :( This is the same Rubin that burnt down the Paladin's house???:D
Khaim 06-15-07, 07:11 AM	Quick question: Can Mounted Combat negate a touch attack on the horse? (And what in the world does Mounted Combat look like in-game? I never understood how mounts are supposed to work. You don't see medieval accounts of "and then Sir Randomguy avoided the arrows of his enemy by using his horse for cover as a free action" much.)
Erithmu 06-15-07, 08:28 AM	can NPC services for spell casting be used in cycle between fights? If you pay to have a weapon upgraded from +1 to +3 are you without the weapon for 3 weeks? Can a NPC cast a personal spell for you into a storage device like the ring of storing or spell storing weapons? If an NPC can't can an ally? no no, but you can only upgrade between cycles Yes, and/but spell storing weapons normally don't carry personal range spells Yes Quick question: Can Mounted Combat negate a touch attack on the horse? (And what in the world does Mounted Combat look like in-game? I never understood how mounts are supposed to work. You don't see medieval accounts of "and then Sir Randomguy avoided the arrows of his enemy by using his horse for cover as a free action" much.) Yes it can ... Mounted combat is the rider guiding the horse at the last minute to the side so that the attack misses, or glances off the armor so that no damage is dealt.
Vathelokai 06-15-07, 09:36 AM	General note: More computer problems for me. May not be on again (except for checking in at work) until saturday. Appologies to my quest-fellows.
hogarth 06-15-07, 10:50 AM	With regards to the "Sell Item" activity, it states "Normally, an item is sold at 50% of its marketprice (sic). This skill use allows you to increase that percentage by an amount equal to the lower of the two skills, for a single item." Does that mean that a +15 modifier increases the resale value to 65% of market or to 0.5*(1.15)=57.5% of market? I've been using the latter, but I now suspect it might mean the former.
TelinArtho 06-15-07, 10:56 AM	It should be the former. If this means changing things - I would suggest either PMing the pitlords who ran the fights with those free activities or posting the correction in the training hall.
hogarth 06-15-07, 11:13 AM	It should be the former. If this means changing things - I would suggest either PMing the pitlords who ran the fights with those free activities or posting the correction in the training hall. I shortchanged myself by 1,719 gp. That ain't chump change for ECL 4!
Erithmu 06-15-07, 01:11 PM	Do CoCo rules allow a person to use command thought items (djore) while held by hold person?
McJarvis 06-15-07, 01:15 PM	General Zaroff will require a QL to quest to be trained by a Warmind. I'd love for it to be a quest tied with the PSI guild, since he already has some RP going on over being the "General" of the troops of PSI. Bump. If someone would do this for me, that'd be super. :)
MindWandererB 06-15-07, 01:26 PM	Do CoCo rules allow a person to use command thought items (djore) while held by hold person? Additionally, to activate a dorje, a character must hold it in hand and point it in the general direction of the target or area to be affected.I would say no.
hogarth 06-15-07, 01:26 PM	Do CoCo rules allow a person to use command thought items (djore) while held by hold person? It depends on the item, but a dorje generally wouldn't work. You have to point a dorje: Additionally, to activate a dorje, a character must hold it in hand and point it in the general direction of the target or area to be affected. So if a gladiator was specifically pointing a dorje at a non-moving object before he got held, it might be O.K.
Erithmu 06-15-07, 01:57 PM	Ok ... I looked back at tactics and found it was a moot point, but good to know.
Malither76 06-15-07, 03:44 PM	anyone interested in running a MQ for me this coming wednesday. It will be the last fight of Gareth's cycle and I want to take him on quest after that, basically I'm looking to continue what King Uther and Huan started for him. He is in search for the man that killed his master, he met him once and took an arm from him. In the MQ I would be looking for some RP and a fight with one of the bandits that could give me some info were the boss is. I would than like for someone to do the quest for me to get revenge and bring the bandits down once and for all. shoot me a PM if your interested and thanks
TelinArtho 06-15-07, 04:09 PM	In light of the frozen leagues opening up, I offer my two level 10 characters up for audits: Kraegin Human Cleric of Denth 7/Thaumaturgist 3 (ECL10) Sir Valkin Human Fighter 1/Paladin 9 (ECL10) Neither one will be active this week - but I want to make sure I am ready to activate them soon. Anyone want to take up one or both of these audits...? Audits are worth a few credits and I'm (in my opinion) pretty meticulous about the the state of my character sheets...
Erithmu 06-15-07, 04:12 PM	Anyone want to take up one or both of these audits...? Audits are worth a few credits and I'm (in my opinion) pretty meticulous about the the state of my character sheets... Nothing better to do .. so gimme a few min ...
TelinArtho 06-15-07, 04:26 PM	In other news, I'm working on figuring out what to do about Dentik. He's had two weeks of losses in situations where he really had no chance. Week 1 was against a caster with a wand of MM and a horse. He has no chance to catch up to her, and has little ranged ability to be able to bring down the horse fast enough to get to a melee situation. Week 2 was against a lizardfolk. Totally oblivious to me, he used a net and that essentially won the fight for him right there. However, even had he not used it - he had the ability to keep the fight ranged with his horse and had an AC that Dentik had little chance to overcome. Now - without picking up a mount for himself or other animal allies (both because of the character concept and because of the upcoming and unknown changes to the ally rules), I'm trying to figure out what is the best route for him to go ahead with. His current ranged attacks are limited to a sling. Move action to reload, average damage of 5.5 with his strength bonus and relatively short range. I could buy him a crossbow, but that would actually drop his damage down to 4.5 on average, but at least would help him in the range category. A heavy crossbow would keep the same average, but the full-round reload time is a bit of a bear. I could also diversify his ranged weapons - picking up a crossbow of some sort, and possibly some javelins and spears for closer-range battles. Not sure how much I like these other options though. His only other way to effect opponents at range right now is with his spells. 1st and 2nd level cleric spells don't have a lot of offensive punch, but the combination of Doom/Hold Person is usually workable. I suppose - picking up some scrolls of one or the other isn't out of the question though - at least for those opponents who have really bad will saves. I'm confident with the character concept - but he certainly has to overcome his massive speed disadvantage if he is going to compete. One of the possibilities when/if I rebuild him is to switch out the destruction domain with something that might synergize his abilities better. It would remove part of the concept I'm working with though, so I'm not too eager to do that...
Erithmu 06-15-07, 04:40 PM	Well I went over Valkin and Kraegin, and they both look fine, I think they got looked over when we did the IMT. As for your new cleric ... I have just found that between about ECL 3-6 clerics just have a hard time (Kervan, Erithmu, my first cleric Sola, Same w/ your Denthians), even summoner clerics have about a 50/50 break if only because they are very limited in the spellcasting ability they have. Mobility is also rough in the arena where there is lots of open space. You might try just moving towards the middle pillars and encouraging the fight to come to you. There is very little that a person can do in consistently breaking cover if you use the central pillars correctly. Most of the powerful low level clerics make use of racial or taking a level of fighter or psi warrior to pick up a feat and martial weapon prof (I'm sure that won't help) Crossbows are rough as they don't help with mobility (move to reload) You might go Bulgar fashion and pick up some tanglefoot bags, or just drag it out. The other option would be to go questing as much as possible with a friendly Questlord. It gets past a bunch of the low levels if you develop a storyline where you can select the terrain via story. To be honest that is what I am doing w/ Erithmu in helping Bulgar out. I expect to suck for another ECL till I get to 7th, and then things start to get a little better. You might also look for equipment that can help out ... save up for something like winged boots (granted that will be around ECL 7 or 8 if you start saving around ECL 5 or so). Clerics are very strong but they don't have mobility, dwarven clerics even less so.
TelinArtho 06-15-07, 04:50 PM	Thanks for looking them over - it just makes me feel a little better when I go to activate them. I had looked over Bulgar for ideas and came to the conclusion that t-bags really won't make much difference for Dentik. Bulgar's ability to throw them 100ft away is a huge benefit - but Dentik doesn't really have the extra feats to dump into PBS and Far Shot. I think I agree that they seem to have a hard time in the first one or two levels. At 5th I think it starts to even out though - that's when Kraegin's record started to pick up quite well. I had considered getting the character into some quests and such - but this character will be doing plenty of questing later on (mostly for things to command with his Command Earth creatures ability - just like Ialgo will be doing). It is an option though - I just want to see him in the arena before I invest too much time in him (for instance, I had to restart Darrgon a few times while I fine-tuned a few things). I will probably restart Dentik for the same reasons - mostly to pick up a slashing weapon to give him more options for sundering items (and so that a net won't hand the win over to an opponent...).
Usurpator 06-15-07, 04:56 PM	Now - without picking up a mount for himself or other animal allies (both because of the character concept and because of the upcoming and unknown changes to the ally rules), I'm trying to figure out what is the best route for him to go ahead with. Sorry Telin, can't think of any other way. A Light Warhorse is sadly standard equipment for my low-level characters now. I call them 'counter-horses'. I have a few characters concepts that don't really fit well with a horse as well, but with evasion so powerful here, I feel forced to get one for my PCs. Even with 0 Ride ranks. I feel the same way about cohorts/allies by the way. Odds of winning consistently against an ECL9 and his ECL7 cohort by yourself are simply too low, so most of my characters are planning on taking 'counter-cohorts'. Sad but necessary to stay competitive. I'm pretty sure you know the basic ways to get more speed magic domain, travel domain, barb level, speed of thought etc. etc. Last time I tried to weather the assault of an evasive character by just sitting there and letting myself get shot while defending, I got slapped by a delay penalty.
TelinArtho 06-15-07, 05:03 PM	Actually - don't get me wrong - I have very little problem with allies the way they are now. Many of my characters have fared very well (by my definition) with what allies they are built to use/without allies. I am more fascinated by ally builds because I think it allows the core character more diversity. That said, I am not going to build an ally-using character right now only to have the rules change on the matter once the council is decided on it. Ironic actually - because now that I think twice about it - this character will be using allies later on - just in the form of commanded earth creatures rather than a standard ally.
SauroGrenom 06-15-07, 05:08 PM	Now - without picking up a mount for himself or other animal allies (both because of the character concept and because of the upcoming and unknown changes to the ally rules), I'm trying to figure out what is the best route for him to go ahead with.I managed to build Kracknol to have a movement speed of about 70' when not mounted. For a melee build in mithril plate, that's fairly fast. But at his level, unless he can fly it doesn't make a difference how fast he is. If your character has levels in ranger variant, or barbarian, that helps. If you have psionics, try for the speed of thought feat. Also a custom item like horseshoes of speed would be good, just customize it as boots of swiftness. Or at medium levels boots of speed are killer and do much the same.
TelinArtho 06-15-07, 05:14 PM	Custom items to boost speed are a bit difficult to price... Armor of Quickness +1 armor enchantment +5 speed (untyped) Boots of Striding and Springing, 5500gp, +10 enhancement to speed, +5 competence to jump Boots of Speed, 12000gp, Haste for 10 rounds/day Horseshoes of Speed, 3000gp, +30 enhancement to speed Obviously the horseshoes are significantly discounted because the "assumption" is that no PC will be able to use them... As usual, I also hinder myself by trying to steer away from psionics. Kraegin still has a tattoo of Skate in his equipment because it was mentioned he was slow - he has never found a situation to use it. I definitely need to give this some more thought...
Usurpator 06-15-07, 05:25 PM	Also a custom item like horseshoes of speed would be good, just customize it as boots of swiftness. Or at medium levels boots of speed are killer and do much the same. Custom items that bypass the whole balancing issue that went into the list of magic items are always good. I agree with Telin, horseshoes of speed are discounted because it is assumed no regular PCs can use them. Unless you believe that the jump bonus from the boots of striding and springing are worth 2500 gp. more and a penalty of -20 to speed. Credits: more options = good. Credits: more power: bad. Of course, as a DM I would allow customized horseshoes of speed, only the character would have to wear them on both hands and feet, and move around on all fours...
templer10 06-15-07, 05:37 PM	iam wondering - what 4th level psionic powers (kineticist0 would you reccomend - there are quite a few good ones - to note - energey adaptation (ressist 10 to energy types - YES PLEASE), freedom of movement and d-door - obvios usefulness, intellect fortress - could be fight winning in 9 + ECL when dmg potential form spells/powers is really high, and of course there is the crown jewel of the kineticist - control body - the first realy save or die power you can get (against anyone without dispel psionincs and even against most of them) - since you can use it and have the cotrollod person critical hit himself to death. unless someone suggest diffrently i think ill go with freedom of movement since it plug my biggest weakness (grapple) and cotrol body (obvios really) and next level take energy adaptation.
TelinArtho 06-15-07, 05:46 PM	After thinking about this some more, I'm thinking that I might just change around Dentik's feats and pick up some javelins, tanglefoot bags and thunderstones. With PBS and Far Shot, this gives him a range equivalent to a light crossbow (though - only 5 range increments rather than 10 - but there's not often that much of a range in the arenas we have (plains being the only real exception). Power attack wasn't likely to be used until much later and the main benefit of Improved Sunder is to remove the AoO from my opponent - but since that doesn't stop the sunder - it really isn't that big of a deal. This should help his survivability versus opponents with whom he is unable to close, but still leaves him vulnerable to deflect arrow opponents. With judicious use of some spells (divine favor, magic stone, possibly bless), his chances to hit with ranged weapons goes up a fair amount as well and his damage is decent - with all three he'd have a +6 to hit, 1d6+5 damage with a 75ft range increment with his sling (with another +1 to hit and damage at less than 30ft). It does increase his expenses - since he'll have to pack scrolls until he can pick up a wand or two, but it should help a fair amount.
Usurpator 06-15-07, 06:02 PM	I am more fascinated by ally builds because I think it allows the core character more diversity. That said, I am not going to build an ally-using character right now only to have the rules change on the matter once the council is decided on it. Ironic actually - because now that I think twice about it - this character will be using allies later on - just in the form of commanded earth creatures rather than a standard ally. I love diversity as well. Also, I love that you can get allies here, but I don't think we have a proper balancing mechanism in place yet. Allies are worth much more than they cost. The idea that I've heard of making allies a gp. penalty only, and not an XP penalty, might be a good idea (as are some of the balancing efforts made by the Elders right now). I would rather allow you your Vermin, I think it's a fun idea, but just like their addition to balance out.
NiQil 06-15-07, 09:40 PM	After thinking about this some more, I'm thinking that I might just change around Dentik's feats and pick up some javelins, tanglefoot bags and thunderstones. With PBS and Far Shot, this gives him a range equivalent to a light crossbow (though - only 5 range increments rather than 10 - but there's not often that much of a range in the arenas we have (plains being the only real exception). Power attack wasn't likely to be used until much later and the main benefit of Improved Sunder is to remove the AoO from my opponent - but since that doesn't stop the sunder - it really isn't that big of a deal. This should help his survivability versus opponents with whom he is unable to close, but still leaves him vulnerable to deflect arrow opponents. With judicious use of some spells (divine favor, magic stone, possibly bless), his chances to hit with ranged weapons goes up a fair amount as well and his damage is decent - with all three he'd have a +6 to hit, 1d6+5 damage with a 75ft range increment with his sling (with another +1 to hit and damage at less than 30ft). It does increase his expenses - since he'll have to pack scrolls until he can pick up a wand or two, but it should help a fair amount. One thing that I can immediately recommend is to change one of his domains to Travel. This gives you access to Longstrider, which you can then get in a wand. Since it has an hour a level duration, a single charge will increase your speed by 10 ft for the whole fight. It also later gives you access to Fly as a domain spell.
Salrantol 06-16-07, 07:56 AM	Are operatives bound by the 1/3 rule when intercepted?
hogarth 06-16-07, 08:32 AM	Are operatives bound by the 1/3 rule when intercepted? Currently, NPCs are never subject to the 1/3 Rule. That's why it's rough to fight an NPC psion -- they can go nova and throw their best power at you over and over again.
Hirumajoe 06-16-07, 10:11 AM	Ok, need some advice. Valen Sky just leveled to 10. He is now a 7th level manifester. I definitely want to take Metamorphosis immediately, but I'm not positive on what else I should grab first. I'm considering: Freedom of Movement (Psionic) Dimension Door Telekinetic Manuever I'm open to other suggestions however. I already have solicit Psicrystal for combos with Telekinetic Manuever, but thats a 12pp investment out of 21 currently. It'll presumably be more worth it later on (since the pp cost doesn't go up for the same effectiveness as I level). Since he's going to be taking Shadow Dancer next level, the two 4th level powers are going to have to carry me through ECL 10 and 11 (taking Slayer levels at 12 and 13 - and getting Cerebral Blind). Thanks ahead of time.
McJarvis 06-16-07, 10:13 AM	iam wondering - what 4th level psionic powers (kineticist0 would you reccomend - there are quite a few good ones - to note - energey adaptation (ressist 10 to energy types - YES PLEASE), freedom of movement and d-door - obvios usefulness, intellect fortress - could be fight winning in 9 + ECL when dmg potential form spells/powers is really high, and of course there is the crown jewel of the kineticist - control body - the first realy save or die power you can get (against anyone without dispel psionincs and even against most of them) - since you can use it and have the cotrollod person critical hit himself to death. unless someone suggest diffrently i think ill go with freedom of movement since it plug my biggest weakness (grapple) and cotrol body (obvios really) and next level take energy adaptation. I like control body b/c you can target yourself with it. You effectively get int instead of str/dex to attacks, int to damage(even for ranged attacks), & of course int to AC instead of dex. That's quite the boon to a caster who mostly has int....[you only lose what, ability to make AoO's?] Then, of course, it's ALSO a save-or-die power. Wowza. edit-> Then consider options like solicit psicrystal so it can make you attack & you can feel free to manifest powers while doing full attacks. Whoa boy.
UserNamer 06-16-07, 10:32 AM	At what level can one start questing for HA and DIP allies?
Erithmu 06-16-07, 10:42 AM	At what level can one start questing for HA and DIP allies? Dip allies don't exist anymore and HA are in the middle of being reworked. Otherwise .. I think it is ECL 5.
Erithmu 06-16-07, 10:59 AM	Question: If a Wizard takes leadership, and has the cohort also be a wizard is there an allowance for sharing of spellbooks?
amalcon 06-16-07, 11:04 AM	Dip allies don't exist anymore and HA are in the middle of being reworked. Otherwise .. I think it is ECL 5. Yeah, it's ECL 5; I was just looking at the quickstart guide and saw this. Incidentally, the quickstart guide still talks about Diplomacy allies. Edit: Ah, I see this has been noticed.
Zevox 06-16-07, 11:10 AM	Question: If a Wizard takes leadership, and has the cohort also be a wizard is there an allowance for sharing of spellbooks? Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured. First, the wizard must decipher the writing in the book (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Once a spell from another spellcaster’s book is deciphered, the reader must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level) to prepare the spell. If the check succeeds, the wizard can prepare the spell. She must repeat the check to prepare the spell again, no matter how many times she has prepared it before. If the check fails, she cannot try to prepare the spell from the same source again until the next day. (However, as explained above, she does not need to repeat a check to decipher the writing.) So in other words, not unless the spell is already in your own spellbook. However, you can of course copy spells from their spellbook for free, meaning you pay only the materials cost (or with a Blessed Book, nothing at all), and vice versa for them, which is quite nice given that you both get 2 spells added to your books for free every time you level up. Kathren is going to be using that trick, plus self-craft blessed books for both herself and her cohort, to make getting some spells much cheaper. Zevox
Erithmu 06-16-07, 11:12 AM	So in other words, not unless the spell is already in your own spellbook. However, you can of course copy spells from their spellbook for free, meaning you pay only the materials cost (or with a Blessed Book, nothing at all), and vice versa for them, which is quite nice given that you both get 2 spells added to your books for free every time you level up. Kathren is going to be using that trick, plus self-craft blessed books for both herself and her cohort, to make getting some spells much cheaper. Zevox Looks like I'm going to have to shell out another 6k for my cohort then ... Then again ... after the campaign it shouldn't be that bad.
Zevox 06-16-07, 11:28 AM	Ok, need some advice. Valen Sky just leveled to 10. He is now a 7th level manifester. I definitely want to take Metamorphosis immediately, but I'm not positive on what else I should grab first. I'm considering: Freedom of Movement (Psionic) Dimension Door Telekinetic Manuever I'm open to other suggestions however. I already have solicit Psicrystal for combos with Telekinetic Manuever, but thats a 12pp investment out of 21 currently. It'll presumably be more worth it later on (since the pp cost doesn't go up for the same effectiveness as I level). Since he's going to be taking Shadow Dancer next level, the two 4th level powers are going to have to carry me through ECL 10 and 11 (taking Slayer levels at 12 and 13 - and getting Cerebral Blind). Thanks ahead of time. TK Manuever is definitely one to save for later. I had Istima pick it up immediately, and hes only used it twice thus far, partially because of the pp cost of comboing it with Solicit Psicrystal. All of the other options at that level, though, are quite nice, so I'm not sure which to recommend. Dimension Door might seem a bit costly for what it does initially, so perhaps wait in that. Freedom of Movement is nice, but situational, though a life-saver in the situations it gets used in. I suppose from the three you listed, I'd take that now. But there are others you may want to consider. Mainly, Energy Adaptation - 7 pp nets you resist 10 to all elements, and at ML 9 that goes up to resist 20, then at ML 13 resist 30. Thats a wonderful defensive power, especially against Psions who get to pick and choose from among four energy types - its the one I'd take in your place. Death Urge is also a nice save-or-die (or close to it) to consider. I've also seen a couple of folks mention Intellect Fortress as being good - personally, I don't think so, since it works only against Psionics and not magic or mundane attacks, plus any powers that bypass PR ignore it too, but I figured I'd mention it. Zevox
Erithmu 06-16-07, 11:37 AM	A second vote for Energy Adaptation. Also a consideration: w/ Metamorph you have very limited use out of it getting only the Dungeoneering and Nature knowledges (which are nice in themselves) but you are going to be limited in what you can transform into, granted there are plenty of good combat forms in Nature, but you might consider what you wanted to use it for and make sure you have the knowledges to back it up. Since Valen really is more of a fighter caster than a true caster any of the other choices are going to be good for you. You might just look at what you have to face in the ECL 10 league before making a final decision.
Hirumajoe 06-16-07, 03:37 PM	First, thanks for the advice. @Erithmu: The forms I had been considering include: Troll, Annis Hag, Harpy (for 80ft flight), Gargoyle (60 ft flight). Stone Giant in the *long* run (although I won't be hitting manifester level 14 until about ECL 19). The thing is most of the other knowledges get you non-humanoid shaped forms at which point you're losing out on equipment, which in general I don't think is made up for by just the stats. What worthwhile forms are gotten by other knowledges (that you can actually polymorph/metamorph into without already being of the same type)? The fact of the matter is Troll is a +9 Str/+9 Con buff with +5 Natural armor and 10' reach. With the downside of Large size and -2 to Dex. Similarly, Annis Hag is a +11 Str buff with +11 Natural armor, 40' speed, 10' reach at the cost of Large size and -4 to dex. Those two forms in and of themselves I think justify the power let alone the other specialized forms for certain circumstances. Out of curiosity, whats the current status of hp changing due to con changing from polymorph? If your new form has a higher con, do you have higher hp? @Zevox and Erithmu: I've thought about Energy adaption alot. I've already got Energy Adaption, specified and with the limited number of powers I have access to, it feels inefficient to grab. I can already simulate it at the cost of 3 rounds and 5 more power points. I can also pop the specified one up as an immediate action in response to the attack itself (+4pp for "quickened" for a total of 7pp). And I'd really like to grab Dimension Door, Freedom of Movement and Telekinetic maneuver. Grabbing Energy Adaption means dropping one of them in the long run I think.
NiQil 06-16-07, 03:40 PM	First, thanks for the advice. @Erithmu: The forms I had been considering include: Troll, Annis Hag, Harpy (for 80ft flight), Gargoyle (60 ft flight). Stone Giant in the *long* run (although I won't be hitting manifester level 14 until about ECL 19). The thing is most of the other knowledges get you non-humanoid shaped forms at which point you're losing out on equipment, which in general I don't think is made up for by just the stats. What worthwhile forms are gotten by other knowledges (that you can actually polymorph/metamorph into without already being of the same type). The fact of the matter is Troll is a +9 Str/+9 Con buff with +5 Natural armor and 10' reach. With the downside of Large size and -2 to Dex. Similarly, Annis Hag is a +11 Str buff with +11 Natural armor, 40' speed, 10' reach at the cost of Large size and -4 to dex. Those two forms in and of themselves I think justify the power let alone the other specialized forms for certain circumstances. Out of curiosity, whats the current status of hp changing due to con changing from polymorph? If your new form has a higher con, do you have higher hp? @Zevox and Erithmu: I've thought about Energy adaption alot. I've already got Energy Adaption, specified and with the limited number of powers I have access to, it feels inefficient to grab. I can already simulate it at the cost of 3 rounds and 5 more power points. I can also pop it up as an immediate action in response to the attack itself (+4pp for "quickened" for a total of 7pp). And I'd really like to grab Dimension Door, Freedom of Movement and Telekinetic manuever. Grabbing Energy Adaption means dropping one of them. Another one you may want to consider, especially if you plan on being in melee a lot, is Empathic Feedback. Dealing damage to an opponent when it isn't your turn is always a good thing. It also has a decent duration at 10 min/level, and is augmentable.
Hirumajoe 06-16-07, 03:45 PM	Another one you may want to consider, especially if you plan on being in melee a lot, is Empathic Feedback. Dealing damage to an opponent when it isn't your turn is always a good thing. It also has a decent duration at 10 min/level, and is augmentable. Huh. I admit I haven't looked at that one. I'll check out it. Thanks.
Zevox 06-16-07, 03:50 PM	I can already simulate it at the cost of 3 rounds and 5 more power points. You mean 5 rounds and 8 more power points - there are 5 energy types to resist (fire, cold, elec, acid, and sonic), and Energy Adaptation gives you all five for 7 pp. Specified Energy Adaptation takes 3 pp per energy type, so thats a minimum of 15 pp. This is why I didn't have Istima take Specified Energy Adaptation - its highly inefficient compared to its 4th level counterpart. I can also pop it up as an immediate action in response to the attack itself (+4pp for "quickened" for a total of 7pp). Aye, and for that same cost you could use Energy Adaptation at the beginning of the fight for all energy resistances. And later on you can get it up as an immediate action too. And I'd really like to grab Dimension Door, Freedom of Movement and Telekinetic manuever. Grabbing Energy Adaption means dropping one of them. Not necessarily - just grab one of them in leui of a higher-level power later. I've found personally that 5th level powers are lacking in usefulness for the CoCo environment by and large (hence why Istima has only two, even though he could have 4 at his level). Zevox
Hirumajoe 06-16-07, 04:01 PM	You mean 5 rounds and 8 more power points - there are 5 energy types to resist (fire, cold, elec, acid, and sonic), and Energy Adaptation gives you all five for 7 pp. Specified Energy Adaptation takes 3 pp per energy type, so thats a minimum of 15 pp. This is why I didn't have Istima take Specified Energy Adaptation - its highly inefficient compared to its 4th level counterpart. Ok, so 4 more rounds and 8 pp more. But yeah, you're making a very persuasive case. So the mistake isn't taking Energy Adaption now, but rather having taken Specified Energy Adaption in the past. Hrm. Two mistakes don't make a right... Aye, and for that same cost you could use Energy Adaptation at the beginning of the fight for all energy resistances. And later on you can get it up as an immediate action too. The thing is with Valen, is he's buff heavy. Which means anyone who can manifest Energy Missile/Ray/whatever on him is most likely going to hit him with a dispel psionics fairly early on, if only to lower his saves. And while you can spend 11 pp for an Immediate Energy Adaption, Valen isn't going to have the manifester level to do that until ECL 16. Which is a long ways off. I like the concept of responding an immediate action with the Specified since it neatly sidesteps the dispel issue. (Although I may want to dump a few more points into Psicraft in that case - hmm...). Not necessarily - just grab one of them in leui of a higher-level power later. I've found personally that 5th level powers are lacking in usefulness for the CoCo environment by and large (hence why Istima has only two, even though he could have 4 at his level). Zevox Hmm... True. I probably should map out the rest of the powers that he wants to take and see where there may be some slop for lower level powers. Thanks again for the ideas. :)
NiQil 06-16-07, 04:08 PM	Ok, so 4 more rounds and 8 pp more. But yeah, you're making a very persuasive case. So the mistake isn't taking Energy Adaption now, but rather having taken Specified Energy Adaption in the past. Hrm. Two mistakes don't make a right... The thing is with Valen, is he's buff heavy. Which means anyone who can manifest Energy Missile/Ray/whatever on him is most likely going to hit him with a dispel psionics fairly early on, if only to lower his saves. And while you can spend 11 pp for an Immediate Energy Adaption, Valen isn't going to have the manifester level to do that until ECL 16. Which is a long ways off. I like the concept of responding an immediate action with the Specified since it neatly sidesteps the dispel issue. (Although I may want to dump a few more points into Psicraft in that case - hmm...). Hmm... True. I probably should map out the rest of the powers that he wants to take and see where there may be some slop for lower level powers. Thanks again for the ideas. :) I've mapped out all of the powers on each of my power-using characters....it helps a great deal. The only trick, when you have a level where you may only have 1 power you want, is deciding whether that power is more useful than a lower level power you have slotted in to fill a higher level slot. Perfect example is Tyden Rayn...he has access to 2nd level powers, but doesn't have any. I picked up Crystal Shard with him at 4, rather than any of the powers I have mapped as 2nd level powers because Crystal Shard is not only of an immediate use, but is going to get used more often than any of the 2nd level powers I have for him. He's a touch attacker, and none of the 2nd level powers were better at doing that than Crystal Shard.
templer10 06-16-07, 04:21 PM	I've mapped out all of the powers on each of my power-using characters....it helps a great deal. The only trick, when you have a level where you may only have 1 power you want, is deciding whether that power is more useful than a lower level power you have slotted in to fill a higher level slot. Perfect example is Tyden Rayn...he has access to 2nd level powers, but doesn't have any. I picked up Crystal Shard with him at 4, rather than any of the powers I have mapped as 2nd level powers because Crystal Shard is not only of an immediate use, but is going to get used more often than any of the 2nd level powers I have for him. He's a touch attacker, and none of the 2nd level powers were better at doing that than Crystal Shard. Arent you a bit limited in the Range deparment? crystal shard is very low in range and ECL 5 is when fly starts to see use.
NiQil 06-16-07, 04:26 PM	Arent you a bit limited in the Range deparment? crystal shard is very low in range and ECL 5 is when fly starts to see use. That's why he carries a bow. And he'll be picking up fly himself as soon as he's able to with Expanded Knowledge (I believe that comes at 9th). There are also Winged Boots, which are starting to be within the realm of possibility, cost wise, at this time. Buy yeah, even then, he still has to get somewhat close until I have one of those, or plink away with his bow. Of course, if he is doing that, then that means he all those pp to burn on Wild Surged Vigors that someone is going to have to burn through to drop him.
Zevox 06-16-07, 04:29 PM	And he'll be picking up fly himself as soon as he's able to with Expanded Knowledge (I believe that comes at 9th). Not for a straight Wilder - since they don't get 5th level powers until ML 10, they can't get EK (Fly) until level 12. Zevox
NiQil 06-16-07, 04:39 PM	Not for a straight Wilder - since they don't get 5th level powers until ML 10, they can't get EK (Fly) until level 12. Zevox I couldn't remember, and don't have my material handy at the moment....though now that I think about it I may have it wrong on Tyden's sheet...might have to revamp his future powers slightly... Edit: Yep...had Empathic Transfer (Hostile) and Fly <Psionic> flip-flopped at 9th and 12th. Though, given how late in the game I would be getting it....I might have to now look at winged boots instead and slot something else in there....
templer10 06-16-07, 04:43 PM	I couldn't remember, and don't have my material handy at the moment....though now that I think about it I may have it wrong on Tyden's sheet...might have to revamp his future powers slightly... YOu might want to take enlarge power feat at 6th - it will make even crystal shard competative against flying opponents in anywhere but the plains. another option is taking energy missile with a feat.
NiQil 06-16-07, 04:49 PM	YOu might want to take enlarge power feat at 6th - it will make even crystal shard competative against flying opponents in anywhere but the plains. another option is taking energy missile with a feat. That's something I have been thinking about as well...picking up Enlarge Power at 6th and Psionic Meditation at 9th so that I can regain focus as a move action and then use the focus on the standard action. Maybe I'll revamp his feats a little....a lot of what I have slotted in for extra powers with EK can be done with equipment...I've never been a big fan of metamagic, and as a result have never really looked at metapsionic feats. Maybe it's time I take a serious look at them.
Erithmu 06-16-07, 06:51 PM	So ... I brought my can of worms ... I am putting together a cohort's improved familiar and am running into some questions, that I just want to make sure I am correct on my assumptions. The Improved familiar in question is going to be Lantern Archon. 1) BAB: I use masters BAB rather than the outsider BAB 2) Saves: I uses the better of 1) Masters 9HD saves or 2) Archon's 1HD saves for each of Fort, Rflx, Will 3) PrCs don't add to the bonuses that familiars get (ex: wiz7/Lore2 = 7th level bonuses). This is in reference to the familiar abilities, int bonus, and NA bonus 4) The Archon's Magic Circle CL is treated as 9 due to the 9HD of the master (True or False) Thats all I have at the moment, still working on it so I didn't want to get too far into the mess before finding that I needed to erase everything.
Zevox 06-16-07, 06:58 PM	So ... I brought my can of worms ... I am putting together a cohort's improved familiar and am running into some questions, that I just want to make sure I am correct on my assumptions. The Improved familiar in question is going to be Lantern Archon. 1) BAB: I use masters BAB rather than the outsider BAB 2) Saves: I uses the better of 1) Masters 9HD saves or 2) Archon's 1HD saves for each of Fort, Rflx, Will 3) PrCs don't add to the bonuses that familiars get (ex: wiz7/Lore2 = 7th level bonuses). This is in reference to the familiar abilities, int bonus, and NA bonus 4) The Archon's Magic Circle CL is treated as 9 due to the 9HD of the master (True or False) Thats all I have at the moment, still working on it so I didn't want to get too far into the mess before finding that I needed to erase everything. The first three are all definitely correct - thats standard familiar rules. The fourth I'm also almost sure is correct, based on the rules for familiars plus the rules for Archons. Curious: this is for Owen, correct? Presuming his cohort is also going to be TN, doesn't the Archon's alignment pose a problem? Or are you going to pay 10 credits to make it TN? (I ask because I'm probably doing the same for Kathren's cohort, since she'll eventually have to drop her own familiar to negate the loss to her leadership score.) Zevox
Erithmu 06-16-07, 07:01 PM	The first three are all definitely correct - thats standard familiar rules. The fourth I'm also almost sure is correct, based on the rules for familiars plus the rules for Archons. Curious: this is for Owen, correct? Presuming his cohort is also going to be TN, doesn't the Archon's alignment pose a problem? Or are you going to pay 10 credits to make it TN? (I ask because I'm probably doing the same for Kathren's cohort, since she'll eventually have to drop her own familiar to negate the loss to her leadership score.) ZevoxYes for Owen Improved Familiar states that the Familiar can be one step away on 'each of the alignment axis' so TN can technically get any familiar they wish. Rough draft of the Familiar is up on his sheet
Zevox 06-16-07, 07:13 PM	Yes for Owen Improved Familiar states that the Familiar can be one step away on 'each of the alignment axis' so TN can technically get any familiar they wish. Rough draft of the Familiar is up on his sheet Hm, thats interesting. Well, makes things a bit easier on me with Kathren - still need to change the Archon's alignment, but just making it NG will work. I don't know if I'll ever get used to the extremely shortened notation you use, but it does look like most everything on it is in order. You forgot to mention most of its familiar abilities though - deliver touch spells, improved evasion, share spells, and empathic link (others don't really matter, but those do). Incidentally, if anyone is interested, all the talk about power selection earlier inspired me to go out and plan Istima's future power selection (and finish planning his feats while I was at it). Theres a few potential changes I may make after he picks up later powers (example: after getting Etherealness, may drop Ethereal Jaunt for Oak Body or something else), but otherwise, everything's there. If anyone wanted to comment/critique them, I'd be interested to hear what you think. Zevox
Erithmu 06-16-07, 07:28 PM	Like I said ... rough draft. I do all the short hand as well since I think I'm getting to the point where Owen's sheet might be really really long w/ 2 full casters, and I'm going to basically have 4 spell books to manage. Well until the mundane ones are full. For Istima Looks good both motif wise and general tool wise. I can't quite think of some other useful tools though. From what you have listed you actually get another 8th, and then 4 more 9th level options (ECL 17 = 9th lvl powers ... you have only selected 17 and 18HD stuff so far)
TheMagister 06-16-07, 07:34 PM	I thought Archons were an Always Lawful Good. We can change the "always" with credits? In other news: HERE's a neat question - when using alter self, if I altered into a dwarf, which "dwarf traits" do I get? "Dwarf traits" is listed under both Special Attacks and Special Qualities. Is the racial bonus to saves vs. magic a "physical quality of the new form"? What about "stability"? TM
Zevox 06-16-07, 07:36 PM	For Istima Looks good both motif wise and general tool wise. I can't quite think of some other useful tools though. From what you have listed you actually get another 8th, and then 4 more 9th level options (ECL 17 = 9th lvl powers ... you have only selected 17 and 18HD stuff so far) What do you mean? I've planned out all the powers he can take through ECL 20. They're not all at the maximum level they could be, but thats deliberate. Note that from ECL 11 on he gets only 1 new power on every odd level, not 2/level as it is from ECL 2-10. Zevox
Zevox 06-16-07, 07:45 PM	I thought Archons were an Always Lawful Good. We can change the "always" with credits? Alignment: This line in a monster entry gives the alignment that the creature is most likely to have. Every entry includes a qualifier that indicates how broadly that alignment applies to all monsters of that kind. Always: The creature is born with the indicated alignment. The creature may have a hereditary predisposition to that alignment or come from a plane that predetermines it. It is possible for individuals to change alignment, but such individuals are either unique or rare exceptions. Alignment: For most races, you may choose character’s alignment freely. However, if your race’s listed alignment is “always”, you are that alignment by default. For example, demons are listed as “always chaotic evil”; if you play a demon, your character is chaotic evil. The Monster Manual, however, says that even in this case, exceptions are possible, although they are very rare. In order to reflect this here, you have to pay 5 credits per step the alignment is away from the one listed as 'always'. Thus, a lawful good pixie ("always neutral good") costs 5 credits while a fallen chaotic evil hound archon ("always lawful good") costs 20 credits. Theres the relevant rules for you. RP-wise, obviously if fallen celestials and risen fiends can exist, anything is possible, its just very rare to see such creatures (hence our credit cost for it). In other news: HERE's a neat question - when using alter self, if I altered into a dwarf, which "dwarf traits" do I get? "Dwarf traits" is listed under both Special Attacks and Special Qualities. Is the racial bonus to saves vs. magic a "physical quality of the new form"? TM No idea... rules aren't clear at all. Guess if I had to rule it in my own games, I'd go ahead and say yes, but thats just a split-second, first impression decision. What about "stability"? Oh, that one I'd definitely give you. Don't see how that could be anything but a physical quality. Zevox
Erithmu 06-16-07, 07:54 PM	What do you mean? I've planned out all the powers he can take through ECL 20. They're not all at the maximum level they could be, but thats deliberate. Note that from ECL 11 on he gets only 1 new power on every odd level, not 2/level as it is from ECL 2-10. ZevoxHun ... never noticed that .... (goes back to make sure he doesn't mess up Loddick's progression) Ok I remember some of my stuff regarding power selection: Can you think of a need for Etherealness to take your mount with you that you would need the mount on the ethereal plane? Most of the ethereal stuff I have seen are ghosts (who are weak on their own plane) and maybe a nightmare. I think Jaunt will probably do you well enough. Other than that ... nice balance of Will/Fort save or dies and utility. Divert Teleport could be a fun switch out for you.
Zevox 06-16-07, 08:04 PM	Hun ... never noticed that .... (goes back to make sure he doesn't mess up Loddick's progression) Ok I remember some of my stuff regarding power selection: Can you think of a need for Etherealness to take your mount with you that you would need the mount on the ethereal plane? Most of the ethereal stuff I have seen are ghosts (who are weak on their own plane) and maybe a nightmare. I think Jaunt will probably do you well enough. Other than that ... nice balance of Will/Fort save or dies and utility. Divert Teleport could be a fun switch out for you. Well, I was actually thinking that Etherealness taking my mount with me would let me slink into the floor or wall with him and buff all I want without risk of detection from a non-ethereal foe. With Ethereal Jaunt, Istyar would be vulnerable while I'm Ethereal, and at later levels especially he won't last long without Istima around. And Divert Teleport? Eh, seems a bit hard to work to me. Not sure I'll be getting many foes trying to teleport away from me instead of towards, even at later levels. Zevox
Erithmu 06-16-07, 08:11 PM	Well, I was actually thinking that Etherealness taking my mount with me would let me slink into the floor or wall with him and buff all I want without risk of detection from a non-ethereal foe. With Ethereal Jaunt, Istyar would be vulnerable while I'm Ethereal, and at later levels especially he won't last long without Istima around. And Divert Teleport? Eh, seems a bit hard to work to me. Not sure I'll be getting many foes trying to teleport away from me instead of towards, even at later levels. ZevoxWell if you use TK manuever, they D.Door, and you choose the target location as ... a) as high up as possible (falling damage) b) out of the arena (can't get back in) c) in the ground (shunt effect = damage) d) in the lava/acid (damage) e) above 50ft on the city map (auto loss) Think of it as a no save save or die to certain casters ... on an immediate action.
Zevox 06-16-07, 08:17 PM	Well if you use TK manuever, they D.Door, and you choose the target location as ... a) as high up as possible (falling damage) b) out of the arena (can't get back in) c) in the ground (shunt effect = damage) d) in the lava/acid (damage) e) above 50ft on the city map (auto loss) Think of it as a no save save or die to certain casters ... on an immediate action. Interesting ideas. But it does allow a save (will to negate me choosing the destination). I'll think about it, though. Could take the place of Shadow Body or one of the Ethereal powers, maybe. Or Energy Conversion - not sure its worth taking that when I have Energy Adaptation already, to be honest. Zevox
Erithmu 06-17-07, 11:37 AM	Owen's cohort and cohort's familiar is up for look over. Some notes: I am not planning on having the cohort active till Owen is at ECL 11, hence why Nest is 9th level. Comments are also welcome. I haven't equipped Nest due to the fact that Owen will probably craft most of her gear when they get back from the campaign. I have plans to have Nest run most of the save or dies through enchantment. Although her spell selection will improve post campaign.
Zevox 06-17-07, 11:49 AM	Owen's cohort and cohort's familiar is up for look over. Some notes: I am not planning on having the cohort active till Owen is at ECL 11, hence why Nest is 9th level. Comments are also welcome. I haven't equipped Nest due to the fact that Owen will probably craft most of her gear when they get back from the campaign. I have plans to have Nest run most of the save or dies through enchantment. Although her spell selection will improve post campaign. Heightened Blindness/Deafness? Don't you think that spell is a little useless by that level? I mean, everyone and their brother picks up Tattoos of Synsthete to negate that spell by then, and now they can grab them at ML 2 or 3 so they last a good while. That Deep Slumber will be hard to pull off at that point too - short range, only works on 10 HD or less foes. You have all her int-based effects as though she had 20 int, but she has only 19. Otherwise, looks good. Zevox
SauroGrenom 06-17-07, 11:55 AM	Also don't forget that Deep Slumber has a 1 round casting time. As levels increase, that's increasingly harder to pull off.
Erithmu 06-17-07, 12:00 PM	Heightened Blindness/Deafness? Don't you think that spell is a little useless by that level? I mean, everyone and their brother picks up Tattoos of Synsthete to negate that spell by then, and now they can grab them at ML 2 or 3 so they last a good while. That Deep Slumber will be hard to pull off at that point too - short range, only works on 10 HD or less foes. You have all her int-based effects as though she had 20 int, but she has only 19. Otherwise, looks good. Zevox Yea I figured I'd be crafting an int headband pretty quick ... Deep Slumber: true, was expecting to use it mostly on pets and cohorts, I'll switch it out for something like a Hei Hideous laughter. Owen is running summons so I'm not worried about having the time, will just take some creative placement (that and its the only halfway decent Enchantment spell at that level to take after Hold Person) I was toying with Suggestion for something like FFAs to direct traffic, but I (just) looked at Rage for Owen's summons which could be interesting. Also looking through the Enchantment spells, most of them are close range anyways ... which is why I picked up Enlarge Spell. Would Ghoul touch be a better run and have the Archon deliver that? I was thinking of running the Deafness more for something like Direbats or creatures that use sound to locate invisible folks.
Zevox 06-17-07, 12:25 PM	Yea I figured I'd be crafting an int headband pretty quick ... Deep Slumber: true, was expecting to use it mostly on pets and cohorts, I'll switch it out for something like a Hei Hideous laughter. Owen is running summons so I'm not worried about having the time, will just take some creative placement (that and its the only halfway decent Enchantment spell at that level to take after Hold Person) I was toying with Suggestion for something like FFAs to direct traffic, but I (just) looked at Rage for Owen's summons which could be interesting. Also looking through the Enchantment spells, most of them are close range anyways ... which is why I picked up Enlarge Spell. Would Ghoul touch be a better run and have the Archon deliver that? I was thinking of running the Deafness more for something like Direbats or creatures that use sound to locate invisible folks. Ghoul Touch would definitely be better I'd say, yes. A fortitude save-or-die which could set up some summons to CDG. Don't know about using Blindness/Deafness that way (Dire Bats the like aren't precisely common - at level 10, only Asran and Aerryl have them, and Asran just uses his if Senorda dies), and definitely you won't need two of them, much less one at 5th level, if you do. Rage + summons sounds a great combo though. Definitely one I'd look into. Rage + shape-shifting Owen might be good too. Zevox
Vathelokai 06-17-07, 12:52 PM	New prison post is up. Quite a few this week. In other news, I did an audit of Zodiac. The results were supprising, so if someone could double check my math it would be greatly appreciated.
Abyssal Stalker 06-17-07, 12:56 PM	anyone interested in running a MQ for me this coming wednesday. It will be the last fight of Gareth's cycle and I want to take him on quest after that, basically I'm looking to continue what King Uther and Huan started for him. He is in search for the man that killed his master, he met him once and took an arm from him. In the MQ I would be looking for some RP and a fight with one of the bandits that could give me some info were the boss is. I would than like for someone to do the quest for me to get revenge and bring the bandits down once and for all. shoot me a PM if your interested and thanks Remember the new rules on questing: -You can have only one successfull mini/quest per level -Starting a quest isn't limited in the beginning of your cycle, you can start whenever you want Other than that, I can run a mini/quest for you if you still haven't found anyone.
Malither76 06-17-07, 11:56 PM	is it one successful mini quest not including joining a guild or just one, I kind of wanted to Miniquest to gather info and get out of cycle then I can buy and do an invasion type on the guys hideout and bring my masters murderer to justice. Yeah Abyssal I will take you up on that, I have to run my fights tomorrow and get back to MWB's quest, I will shoot you a PM of what I'm looking to do on tuesday. thanks.
Zevox 06-18-07, 01:08 AM	is it one successful mini quest not including joining a guild or just one, I kind of wanted to Miniquest to gather info and get out of cycle then I can buy and do an invasion type on the guys hideout and bring my masters murderer to justice. Yeah Abyssal I will take you up on that, I have to run my fights tomorrow and get back to MWB's quest, I will shoot you a PM of what I'm looking to do on tuesday. thanks. Its on successful quest or miniquest per level, not including those to join a Guild or Guild missions/operations. If you do a miniquest not related to the Guilds on a level, you can't do a full quest, and vice versa, unless of course the first mini/quest failed. Incidentally, you can't do free activities on miniquests, so if thats what you meant by the gather info comment, no can do. If you meant it just for the story, though, perhaps you could just have that be the first week of the full quest instead? And like Abyssal said, it doesn't matter when during your cycle you start the quest. If you start it on fight 3, you just get to purchase items, re-memorize spells, etc after your first encounter in the quest, like normal, then continue the quest. Zevox
hogarth 06-18-07, 08:54 AM	Are items crafted by a ghost "automatically" ethereal, or does it require a free activity to "etherealize" 1000 gp of items (whether they're self-crafted or not)? The rules only mention buying items. EDIT: I have the same question for items acquired via Gather Information. Automatically ethereal or not?
UserNamer 06-18-07, 04:41 PM	Eunice (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12524962&postcount=1135) has gone crazy and is challenging anyone who accept from the ECL6 league!
Zevox 06-18-07, 04:48 PM	Eunice (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12524962&postcount=1135) has gone crazy and is challenging anyone who accept from the ECL6 league! ... and an ECL 6 character would accept a challenge from an ECL 3 why? Zevox
TelinArtho 06-18-07, 04:50 PM	Eunice (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12524962&postcount=1135) has gone crazy and is challenging anyone who accept from the ECL6 league! Not sure that you'll be able to get any takers for that one. 1. If this is not set up as a true interleague fight - the ECL6 character needs to do it outside of the 3FC. 2. If it is done outside of the 3FC, then the ECL6 character stands to win 600xp on a win and only 200xp for a loss. The ECL3 character gets to win 2700xp on a win and still only gains 300xp for a loss. If the ECL6 character has a "normal" PR - then they stand to lose a lot from the challenge and gain very little on a win. 3. If it is an interleague fight - it would 3 ECL3 characters versus the ECL6 character and rewards would work out to be the same as a regular 1-1 fight for each individual opponent.
templer10 06-18-07, 05:12 PM	Eunice (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12524962&postcount=1135) has gone crazy and is challenging anyone who accept from the ECL6 league! Get 3 other ECL 3's (that's for an ECL 7) and ill take you on with Longshot althrough i wouldnt exacly reccomend it...
Erithmu 06-18-07, 05:16 PM	He just wants to level up in one fight (after factoring in his political career). Not sure he will be able to pull out a win when you get up to ECL 6 range. Not that it matters Usernamer doesn't have the credits to issue a challenge ...
UserNamer 06-18-07, 05:21 PM	damn, forgot the credits :p I acutally didn't think of all of this when challenging everybody. But the offer is still there, once I've done 6 fight, ill have 1 credit, then we can fight.
Usurpator 06-18-07, 06:00 PM	damn, forgot the credits :p I acutally didn't think of all of this when challenging everybody. But the offer is still there, once I've done 6 fight, ill have 1 credit, then we can fight. I still don't think there will be a lot of takers. It generally isn't worth it for the higher ECL character.
Zevox 06-18-07, 06:07 PM	Plus it would be an aboslute slaughter anyway. I know my ECL 6, Mithos, would have no trouble with that guy at all, even without the Hippogriff hes currently training. Looking over the ECL 6 characters, even the weakest of them have tricks that would easily overwhelm him, and the strongest could easily down him in as little as one round. Zevox
Airwhale 06-18-07, 07:42 PM	Hey folks, I can't find this anywhere. 1)Core coliseum charicters get the -20% penelty for multiclassing as described in the rulebooks, right? 2)I'd really like to look up a fight in the last Battles of Gladus thread, but it seems to have been archived and the server gives up when you try to access it. Can anyone else get at it?
Zevox 06-18-07, 07:57 PM	Hey folks, I can't find this anywhere. 1)Core coliseum charicters get the -20% penelty for multiclassing as described in the rulebooks, right? 2)I'd really like to look up a fight in the last Battles of Gladus thread, but it seems to have been archived and the server gives up when you try to access it. Can anyone else get at it? #1 is a core rule, so yes, it applies here. Its worth noting that it applies to gp rewards here as well, to ensure that the balance of the xp/gp ratio is kept. #2, nobody else can get at it either. Don't know if MWB has just given up on getting it back or what. Zevox
TelinArtho 06-18-07, 08:20 PM	You know - I have a method to download the threads from the archive via my brother's server. Let me see if I can grab the ones I don't have and see what I can do with it. @Airwhale - just for reference which post # is the fight you want? Or at least between which combatants?
Vathelokai 06-18-07, 10:37 PM	Quick question: does being flat footed have an effect on reflex saves? Can't find a rule for it.
NiQil 06-18-07, 10:38 PM	Quick question: does being flat footed have an effect on reflex saves? Can't find a rule for it. Not to my knowledge, no.
Zevox 06-18-07, 10:45 PM	Quick question: does being flat footed have an effect on reflex saves? Can't find a rule for it. A second no. Logical though it may be, I've never heard of a rule that penalizes reflex saves when flat-footed. Zevox
MindWandererB 06-18-07, 11:13 PM	#2, nobody else can get at it either. Don't know if MWB has just given up on getting it back or what.I haven't tried. I'm sure I could, if people wanted me to.
stimpydoda 06-19-07, 12:48 AM	Hey there! I'm sure this has been asked before, but I can't find it. When crafting a powerstone, say if you wanted to make a ml3 vigor, how much would it cost to craft? Thanks.
Zevox 06-19-07, 12:51 AM	Hey there! I'm sure this has been asked before, but I can't find it. When crafting a powerstone, say if you wanted to make a ml3 vigor, how much would it cost to craft? Thanks. A plain ML 3 stone (+5 hp for 3 minutes) is 75 gp, half that crafted. An augmented ML 3 stone (+15 hp for 3 minutes) would be 150 gp, half that crafted. The reason is because when augmenting psionic items, they are treated as one power level higher for every two manifester levels they are raised. So in this case, Vigor, normally power level 1, minimum manifester level 1, raised to manifester level 3 is treated as being power level 2, thus costing 25*3*2 = 150 gp, like any normal power level 2 stone. Zevox
stimpydoda 06-19-07, 01:08 AM	You explained that very well! Thanks!
Salrantol 06-19-07, 06:53 AM	Speaking of powerstones, how does it work if a power is of a different level for the crafter and user of the item? For example, A psychic warrior crafts a powerstone of Biofeedback (level 1 power, 1 pp, DR 2/-), and augments it to 4pp (level 2 power (for cost), 4pp, DR 3/-). A psion then uses the powerstone. Does it count as a 4 pp psion Biofeedback (level 2 power, 4 pp, DR 2/-) or as it was crafted (level 2 power (for cost), 4pp, DR 3/-)?
McJarvis 06-19-07, 07:05 AM	I know there was a RotG(or something) article that allowed augment summoning affect scroll-casting....does this ruling flow over into Wilders wild-surging powerstones?
templer10 06-19-07, 07:23 AM	I know there was a RotG(or something) article that allowed augment summoning affect scroll-casting....does this ruling flow over into Wilders wild-surging powerstones? Augment summoning is a feat, wild surge is a class feature so in my opinion - it's a NO - but then my opinion doesnt really count lol.
SauroGrenom 06-19-07, 08:27 AM	I know there was a RotG(or something) article that allowed augment summoning affect scroll-casting....does this ruling flow over into Wilders wild-surging powerstones? We haven't discussed it in detail. This was in a recent ask wizards, and I think it made it into the FAQ (all ask wizards stuff is moving that way after a few months). There are potentially lots of implications. Like Overchannel or Talented being applied to powerstones or other metamagic feats being applied to powerstones. It also opens the question of how to deal with feats like spell focus, or class features like the rapid summoning that could apply to scrolls. The answer is that we haven't discussed it.
hogarth 06-19-07, 08:57 AM	I know there was a RotG(or something) article that allowed augment summoning affect scroll-casting....does this ruling flow over into Wilders wild-surging powerstones? I don't think so. Nothing in that ruling suggests to me that you can augment a power stone using power points from an outside source (whether it's a wild surge or overchanneling or whatever). It only seems to refer to effects that automatically apply when you manifest the relevant power normally. It does seem to suggest that Spell Focus would work with a scroll, though. That's my $0.02.
McJarvis 06-19-07, 09:51 AM	Augment summoning is a feat, wild surge is a class feature so in my opinion - it's a NO - but then my opinion doesnt really count lol. The rule clarification in question also allowed the sharing of spells from scrolls on familiars-> which is a class feature, so the difference between class features/feats is mute on this point.
McJarvis 06-19-07, 09:53 AM	I don't think so. Nothing in that ruling suggests to me that you can augment a power stone using power points from an outside source (whether it's a wild surge or overchanneling or whatever). It only seems to refer to effects that automatically apply when you manifest the relevant power normally. It does seem to suggest that Spell Focus would work with a scroll, though. That's my $0.02. Note that, like mentioned in my post directly above this one, there are some abilities(like sharing spells on AC/familiars) that are not automatic but may still be applied. I don't think the ruling allowed for augmenting with your own powerpoints, but given that wild surge provides the power points itself I think there's some debate in the air there. Overchannel/talented obviously wouldn't apply since you need to use your own PP to use those features. I'll bring this up in the courtroom.
Zevox 06-19-07, 11:10 AM	Speaking of powerstones, how does it work if a power is of a different level for the crafter and user of the item? For example, A psychic warrior crafts a powerstone of Biofeedback (level 1 power, 1 pp, DR 2/-), and augments it to 4pp (level 2 power (for cost), 4pp, DR 3/-). A psion then uses the powerstone. Does it count as a 4 pp psion Biofeedback (level 2 power, 4 pp, DR 2/-) or as it was crafted (level 2 power (for cost), 4pp, DR 3/-)? It counts as the type of stone it was crafted to be. Same way Ranger-crafted items work the way they would for a Ranger when used by a Cleric or Paladin. Why on earth would that change just because someone of a different class was using it? Zevox
Macbrea 06-19-07, 11:22 AM	Psionic levitation reads: Level: Nomad 2, psion/wilder 2, psychic warrior 2 Target: You or one willing creature or one object (total weight up to 100 lb./level) Special When a psion, wilder, or a psychic warrior manifests this power, the target is the manifester (not a willing creature or an object).
Zevox 06-19-07, 11:33 AM	Psionic levitation reads: Level: Nomad 2, psion/wilder 2, psychic warrior 2 Target: You or one willing creature or one object (total weight up to 100 lb./level) Special When a psion, wilder, or a psychic warrior manifests this power, the target is the manifester (not a willing creature or an object). Yeah, I know, thats a really wierd one. Technically it means that it can only be used on other creatures/objects if its taken by a PrC with either access to it or Expanded Knowledge (i.e. a War Mind or Psionic Fist, which have their own manifesting progression instead of the usual +1 ML from a previous class and get their powers from the psychic warrior list). Though I think its even more odd that the power is on the Nomad discipline list when its a normal Psion/Wilder power anyway, to be honest... Zevox
hogarth 06-19-07, 11:47 AM	Yeah, I know, thats a really wierd one. Technically it means that it can only be used on other creatures/objects if its taken by a PrC with either access to it or Expanded Knowledge (i.e. a War Mind or Psionic Fist, which have their own manifesting progression instead of the usual +1 ML from a previous class and get their powers from the psychic warrior list). Though I think its even more odd that the power is on the Nomad discipline list when its a normal Psion/Wilder power anyway, to be honest... It's poorly worded, but the intent is clear (IMO). There are three lists with the power on it (nomad, psion/wilder, psychic warrior). The nomad version can be used on an object or another willing creature, but the other two can't. Of course, that's not how they stated it, but it makes sense to me.
Zevox 06-19-07, 11:49 AM	It's poorly worded, but the intent is clear (IMO). There are three lists with the power on it (nomad, psion/wilder, psychic warrior). The nomad version can be used on an object or another willing creature, but the other two can't. Of course, that's not how they stated it, but it makes sense to me. The problem, of course, is that Nomads are Psions... Zevox
hogarth 06-19-07, 11:58 AM	The problem, of course, is that Nomads are Psions... Which part of "that's not how they stated it" do you have a problem with? :)
MindWandererB 06-19-07, 12:28 PM	It's pretty clear that hogarth is right. 1) There's no reason for it to be on the nomad list when it's already on the psion list, unless their version is somehow different. 2) When you eliminate all psions and psychic warriors, then there's no version of the power left. WotC never creates a power (or spell) deliberately intended to be added onto a character through use of a feat that way.
Zevox 06-19-07, 12:30 PM	2) When you eliminate all psions and psychic warriors, then there's no version of the power left. WotC never creates a power (or spell) deliberately intended to be added onto a character through use of a feat that way. Um, MWB, I mentioned two classes that would be left before. Psionic Fists and War Minds. They can get it because they get powers from the Psychic Warrior list, yet they are not Psychic Warriors themselves. Zevox
MindWandererB 06-19-07, 12:35 PM	Um, MWB, I mentioned two classes that would be left before. Psionic Fists and War Minds. They can get it because they get powers from the Psychic Warrior list, yet they are not Psychic Warriors themselves. Zevox True... which actually raises a question. Until you mentioned this, I assumed that a war mind or psionic fist would not get the nomad version, because they choose their powers from the PsiWar class list, and the psychic warrior version only works on yourself. I figured that when they say "When a psion, wilder, or a psychic warrior manifests this power," they actually mean that the power is effectively two different powers, not that the mainfester's class somehow alters the effect. Oddity: I use Levitation occasionally with Maya. Your reading would mean that she can't use it on anything other than herself, because she's a psychic warrior, even though she's also a nomad.
Zevox 06-19-07, 12:38 PM	True... which actually raises a question. Until you mentioned this, I assumed that a war mind or psionic fist would not get the nomad version, because they choose their powers from the PsiWar class list, and the psychic warrior version only works on yourself. I figured that when they say "When a psion, wilder, or a psychic warrior manifests this power," they actually mean that the power is effectively two different powers, not that the mainfester's class somehow alters the effect. Oddity: I use Levitation occasionally with Maya. Your reading would mean that she can't use it on anything other than herself, because she's a psychic warrior, even though she's also a nomad. Not necessarily - if she chose it as a Nomad power, shes using it as a Nomad, not a Psychic Warrior. The source class is what matters, near as I can tell. Else War Minds or Psionic Fists who also had levels in Psychic Warrior would lose the ability to use it on others, which would be weird as hell. Zevox
MindWandererB 06-19-07, 12:52 PM	Well, see, that's what I mean. A War Mind using the power is using it "as a psychic warrior," since that's where they get their class list. If it's the version of the power that matters, rather than the class of the user, then anyone with a psychic warrior (or psion) class list gets the weaker version, and only those who get it from the nomad list get the stronger one.
Zevox 06-19-07, 12:54 PM	Open question to anybody: what things exist which will boost a character's fly speed? Aside from things from specific class levels (i.e. a Monk's speed boost)? Arden is close on having enough gold to finally purchase his Winged Boots, and I noticed his Speed of Thought feat will boost his fly speed with those, which is good since his armor reduces it, so I'm curious what else I may be able to do to boost his speed with that. So far all I've noticed is armor of quickness, which is too small a boost to work with his armor reducing his speed. Anyone know of anything else that might help? Zevox
McJarvis 06-19-07, 12:55 PM	Open question to anybody: what things exist which will boost a character's fly speed? Aside from things from specific class levels (i.e. a Monk's speed boost)? Arden is close on having enough gold to finally purchase his Winged Boots, and I noticed his Speed of Thought feat will boost his fly speed with those, which is good since his armor reduces it, so I'm curious what else I may be able to do to boost his speed with that. So far all I've noticed is armor of quickness, which is too small a boost to work with his armor reducing his speed. Anyone know of anything else that might help? Zevox Haste gives +30 enhancement to all movement types. Those who are fans of burrowing might want to take note of that as well.
TelinArtho 06-19-07, 12:56 PM	Haste is the first one that comes to mind, but since you already have boots of flying that may not be reasonable. Maybe armor of speed (per the Mithril Full Plate of Speed)?
Zevox 06-19-07, 12:57 PM	Haste gives +30 enhancement to all movement types. Those who are fans of burrowing might want to take note of that as well. True, and worth noting. But Arden would need a custom item for that I'm afraid. Since hes already wearing Winged Boots, Boots of Speed are out, and the only other way to get haste for him would be to learn to cast it himself or get a cohort that can, neither of which he is going to do. Still, worth considering. Zevox
McJarvis 06-19-07, 12:59 PM	True, and worth noting. But Arden would need a custom item for that I'm afraid. Since hes already wearing Winged Boots, Boots of Speed are out, and the only other way to get haste for him would be to learn to cast it himself or get a cohort that can, neither of which he is going to do. Still, worth considering. Zevox There are potions, though I haven't looked at your char sheet/levels/expendables to see if that's cost-worthy.
Zevox 06-19-07, 01:02 PM	Haste is the first one that comes to mind, but since you already have boots of flying that may not be reasonable. Maybe armor of speed (per the Mithril Full Plate of Speed)? Hm - interesting. Especially considering Arden is already wearing +1 Mithril Full Plate. But thats pretty costly - 20,250 gp beyond the current price of his armor, for what amounts to the effect of Boots of Speed in his armor instead of boots. It would actually be cheaper to pay 10 credits to make his Boots both Winged and Boots of Speed - only 18,000 gp (12,000 for Boots of Speed, times 1.5 for being combined with the more expensive Winged Boots). Zevox
TelinArtho 06-19-07, 01:02 PM	True, and worth noting. But Arden would need a custom item for that I'm afraid. Since hes already wearing Winged Boots, Boots of Speed are out, and the only other way to get haste for him would be to learn to cast it himself or get a cohort that can, neither of which he is going to do. Still, worth considering. Zevox You could go with potions of Haste with the intention of only using them when it is needed. 750gp per fight is expensive, but if you find it is necessary to be competitive in one fight at a time - it may not be that bad. You might want to consider just how much of a speed boost you are looking for. Is +10 speed enough to be worth it to you? Is +30? Consider that even with the +30 (let's see - 60+30=90 * 2/3 = 60) you'll be moving at 60ft after your armor. That still wouldn't be enough to catch up with the common mounts at ECL6+ (Hippogriffs, Pegasi, Griffons), but is enough to catch Dire Bats, and the like. If your goal is to be able to force melee - you will still be having trouble with those faster mounts. So the question is - are the rare cases of the slower mounts important enough to justify the cost of the speed increase?
Zevox 06-19-07, 01:03 PM	There are potions, though I haven't looked at your char sheet/levels/expendables to see if that's cost-worthy. I'm trying to minimize the expendables Arden uses outside of his Dorje of Force Screen, so thats not an option as far as I'm concerned. Besides, its not cost-effective anyway - 750 gp for 5 rounds of haste? I'll pass. Zevox
TelinArtho 06-19-07, 01:04 PM	Hm - interesting. Especially considering Arden is already wearing +1 Mithril Full Plate. But thats pretty costly - 20,250 gp beyond the current price of his armor, for what amounts to the effect of Boots of Speed in his armor instead of boots. It would actually be cheaper to pay 10 credits to make his Boots both Winged and Boots of Speed - only 18,000 gp (12,000 for Boots of Speed, times 1.5 for being combined with the more expensive Winged Boots). Zevox That's not right... Mithril Plate of Speed is +1 Mithril Full Plate with the haste effect for 10 rounds/day. Market price is 26500gp. Mithril Full plate base cost is 1500+9000 = 10500gp. +1 is another 1000gp. That leaves the Speed portion at 15000gp.
Zevox 06-19-07, 01:14 PM	You could go with potions of Haste with the intention of only using them when it is needed. 750gp per fight is expensive, but if you find it is necessary to be competitive in one fight at a time - it may not be that bad. You might want to consider just how much of a speed boost you are looking for. Is +10 speed enough to be worth it to you? Is +30? Consider that even with the +30 (let's see - 60+30=90 * 2/3 = 60) you'll be moving at 60ft after your armor. That still wouldn't be enough to catch up with the common mounts at ECL6+ (Hippogriffs, Pegasi, Griffons), but is enough to catch Dire Bats, and the like. If your goal is to be able to force melee - you will still be having trouble with those faster mounts. So the question is - are the rare cases of the slower mounts important enough to justify the cost of the speed increase? Factor in the fact that his Speed of Thought feat also applies, and you have 100 ft * 2/3 = 65 ft after rounding. Toss in Armor of Quickness and you get 105 ft *2/3 = 70 ft. Against Griffons or Giant Eagles/Owls, or maybe even Hippogriffs in the right circumstances (due to their average maneuverability vs Arden's good), that'll let him catch up. So yes, I think its worth looking at getting him something with Haste. Probably going to have to be a custom item, though. Lets see... if I can get it in an appropriate body slot, cost for a 3/day item would be 3*5*1800 = 27,000 / (5/3) = 16,200 gp. For 2/day, 10,800 gp. Hm, costly. Might just be best to get those Winged Boots of Speed for 18k after he has the Winged Boots. Though, would Haste for 5 rounds 3 times per day be better than Haste for 10 rounds per day in any combination I desire? Hm... a conundrum. I'm not sure. I'll have to think on that. Zevox
Zevox 06-19-07, 01:16 PM	That's not right... Mithril Plate of Speed is +1 Mithril Full Plate with the haste effect for 10 rounds/day. Market price is 26500gp. Mithril Full plate base cost is 1500+9000 = 10500gp. +1 is another 1000gp. That leaves the Speed portion at 15000gp. Oh, good point. I forgot Arden self-crafted his armor when I looked up its price. So thats cheaper than the Winged Boots of Speed after all, and wouldn't even cost credits. That one suddenly sounds quite appealing. Zevox
SauroGrenom 06-19-07, 01:30 PM	Oh, good point. I forgot Arden self-crafted his armor when I looked up its price. So thats cheaper than the Winged Boots of Speed after all, and wouldn't even cost credits. That one suddenly sounds quite appealing. ZevoxIn the future I'll end up doing something similar for Kracknol when the allies he has are all nerfed and he cannot rely on normal flying mounts to get him into the air against casters or when enlarged.
Salrantol 06-19-07, 01:50 PM	It counts as the type of stone it was crafted to be. Same way Ranger-crafted items work the way they would for a Ranger when used by a Cleric or Paladin. Why on earth would that change just because someone of a different class was using it?I certainly didn't think it would, but better to check now than buy it for a character and learn it worked differently.
TelinArtho 06-19-07, 03:02 PM	When does the CAP for a character going on campaign have to be spent? For instance, Mitza's campaign is starting "soon" - but I'm not sure exactly when. Can I spend a CAP to send Valanthe now in order to make it so the campaign is not held up?
stimpydoda 06-19-07, 03:11 PM	"Lycidas Arcades" Thanks for the help.
MitzaVolchenko 06-19-07, 03:12 PM	When does the CAP for a character going on campaign have to be spent? For instance, Mitza's campaign is starting "soon" - but I'm not sure exactly when. Can I spend a CAP to send Valanthe now in order to make it so the campaign is not held up? "Soon" is next week. I need everyone that still wants in to re-PM me. My original list is in my Profile. If anyone wants in or out, now is the time to tell me :)
TelinArtho 06-19-07, 03:13 PM	Okay then - @Zevox (Guildlords) - is it too late to spend a CAP on the campaign?
TelinArtho 06-19-07, 03:14 PM	"Lycidas Arcades" Thanks for the help. I believe that links back to Sarai...
stimpydoda 06-19-07, 03:17 PM	Ya, sorry about that, I fixed it.
Macbrea 06-19-07, 03:20 PM	Oh, Armor enchantement 'Quickness" is +5ft bonus to wearer's speed. So, an unnamed +5ft bonus for +1 bonus to armor.
templer10 06-19-07, 03:21 PM	question - i dont need a training room post to make a char legal true?
TelinArtho 06-19-07, 03:22 PM	In general no.
stimpydoda 06-19-07, 03:51 PM	"Lycidas Arcades" Thanks for the help. Bump, just incase
Khaim 06-19-07, 04:00 PM	Bump, just incase Ray of Enfeeblement can kill you. Also, nice job copying my character sheet. (It's okay, Psellus is terrible and probably won't be fighting any more anyways.) Overall, good job, but I might move the stats around a bit. What's the 11 Cha for, anyways?
TelinArtho 06-19-07, 04:03 PM	Actually Ray of Enfeeblement is just a penalty to Str, not damage. As such, the penalty can never drop you below 1. A coruscating ray springs from your hand. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to strike a target. The subject takes a penalty to Strength equal to 1d6+1 per two caster levels (maximum 1d6+5). The subject’s Strength score cannot drop below 1. Also - there's no actual proprietorship in the CoCo - so everyone is free to steal everyone else's ideas for characters here. Consider it flattery at its best. Everytime someone brings up a CoDzilla I get a little smile inside...
templer10 06-19-07, 04:07 PM	Actually Ray of Enfeeblement is just a penalty to Str, not damage. As such, the penalty can never drop you below 1. Also - there's no actual proprietorship in the CoCo - so everyone is free to steal everyone else's ideas for characters here. Consider it flattery at its best. Everytime someone brings up a CoDzilla I get a little smile inside... You know someone should just make a char called "Cozilla" and his brother "druidzilla" just to get it out on the open...
Zevox 06-19-07, 04:10 PM	Okay then - @Zevox (Guildlords) - is it too late to spend a CAP on the campaign? Nope - in fact, as far as I know, you can spend CAPs on that at any time during the campaign. Zevox
TelinArtho 06-19-07, 04:15 PM	Okay then - expect a change in CEF's weekly actions then.
McJarvis 06-19-07, 04:15 PM	Actually Ray of Enfeeblement is just a penalty to Str, not damage. As such, the penalty can never drop you below 1. I thought about pointing that out, but I felt like the point of the original poster was that RoE will kill him in the more "you get hit by one and your as good as dead" kind of sense. :)
stimpydoda 06-19-07, 04:17 PM	Actually, I didn't copy the character, the sheet was just convenient. I'm going for thrallherd, so the 11 cha is for 1 stat bump and a cloak of cha +2 to give me a 14 cha.
McJarvis 06-19-07, 04:19 PM	Actually, I didn't copy the character, the sheet was just convenient. I'm going for thrallherd, so the 11 cha is for 1 stat bump and a cloak of cha +2 to give me a 14 cha. Fair warning-> thrallherds are nerfed here. Your cohort can only be up to ECL-2 because we obviously can't adhere to RAW over our made up rules. It more or less makes the prestige class for flavor only. [Leadership is better in every sense of optimization]
stimpydoda 06-19-07, 04:26 PM	Fair warning-> thrallherds are nerfed here. Your cohort can only be up to ECL-2 because we obviously can't adhere to RAW over our made up rules. It more or less makes the prestige class for flavor only. [Leadership is better in every sense of optimization] Oh really... hmmm... I wanted him to be a corrupt politician, winning over as many followers by any means. Thrallherd is the best thing I can think of for that. Any suggestions?
TelinArtho 06-19-07, 04:31 PM	On a completely different note, I'm working on a character concept I've never worked with before - an Arcane Archer. Still working on the build but it looks like a combination of one of the following: Fighter 2/Wizard 1/Elf Paragon 3/Fighter 4 or Barbarian 2/Arcane Archer 10 or Fighter 2/Wizard 1/Elf Paragon 3/Wizard 4/Arcane Archer 10 The former gets to AA one level earlier and has more HP. However, the former also only has a CL3. The later manages to get to CL6. Looking over the Imbue Arrow ability - I'm not sure how much effect this would have. Could I imbue an arrow with any spell as long as it has an "area" entry? Can I put something like Ray of Enfeeblement into it (no area entry)? What about a touch spell?
amalcon 06-19-07, 04:36 PM	Fair warning-> thrallherds are nerfed here. Your cohort can only be up to ECL-2 because we obviously can't adhere to RAW over our made up rules. It more or less makes the prestige class for flavor only. [Leadership is better in every sense of optimization] It has some pure convenience benefits -- get around the ally exp penalty if that's important to you, don't have to quest for your dudes (the ability clearly states that they just show up after 24 hours), meaning you can change them out as much as you like, leadership mods and Cha penalties don't matter (leadership mods b/c the ability says they don't, Cha because the double Thrallherd level stacking just overpowers it). You do also get the crazy cheapening dominate thing once a day, for what that's worth. That said, yeah, it's mostly a flavor class. Especially since you have to blow a feat on inquisitor to get in.
templer10 06-19-07, 04:40 PM	It has some pure convenience benefits -- get around the ally exp penalty if that's important to you, don't have to quest for your dudes (the ability clearly states that they just show up after 24 hours), meaning you can change them out as much as you like, leadership mods and Cha penalties don't matter (leadership mods b/c the ability says they don't, Cha because the double Thrallherd level stacking just overpowers it). You do also get the crazy cheapening dominate thing once a day, for what that's worth. That said, yeah, it's mostly a flavor class. Especially since you have to blow a feat on inquisitor to get in. In higher ECL's your manifester level is just plain BAD - and since this looks like a pure manifester - always remmber the first rule of a full caster/full manifester- NEVER EVER EVER GIVE UP ON A CASTER LEVEL.
Erithmu 06-19-07, 04:41 PM	Commonly I have seen 2 opinions regarding Arcane Archer 1) Take 2 levels to pick up Imbue Arrow and then wizard and EK levels to support that 2) Take all 10 levels of AA and go for an archer build rather than a casting build. I read the Imbue arrow ability to be area spells only, the problem becomes most of the decent area spells all have decent range (relative to CoCo standards). I think Zevox's Eraca is probably one of the better build AA's on the boards in terms of balance. If you look at Dsugui's cohort on Dudael (Graveyard), I know that Dsugui was going to take a level of wizard and then run AA for that cohort. So I guess it depends do you want an Archer, An archer with arcane buffs (CL 5-7 range), or a wizard with almost full BAB?
amalcon 06-19-07, 04:43 PM	In higher ECL's your manifester level is just plain BAD - and since this looks like a pure manifester - always remmber the first rule of a full caster/full manifester- NEVER EVER EVER GIVE UP ON A CASTER LEVEL. Didn't say it was good, just that it does stuff Leadership doesn't.
Zevox 06-19-07, 04:43 PM	On a completely different note, I'm working on a character concept I've never worked with before - an Arcane Archer. Still working on the build but it looks like a combination of one of the following: Fighter 2/Wizard 1/Elf Paragon 3/Fighter 4 or Barbarian 2/Arcane Archer 10 or Fighter 2/Wizard 1/Elf Paragon 3/Wizard 4/Arcane Archer 10 The former gets to AA one level earlier and has more HP. However, the former also only has a CL3. The later manages to get to CL6. Looking over the Imbue Arrow ability - I'm not sure how much effect this would have. Could I imbue an arrow with any spell as long as it has an "area" entry? Can I put something like Ray of Enfeeblement into it (no area entry)? What about a touch spell? Ah, an Arcane Archer. Only one of those in the arena right now, and shes mine. First, a suggestion: you might want to consider only taking that PrC up to level 9. The 10th level "Arrow of Death" ability isn't really worth it, since the save is a flat DC 20, which by the time you get it isn't that good. For imbue arrow, any spell with an area entry works. No, neither Ray of Enfeeblement nor a Touch spell would. I'd suggest going for a higher caster level version myself - with Eraca I've found that her magic helps her tremendously, and I'm considering revising my original plan for her to get her up to CL 7. Especially since lower-level spells don't work half as well with the Imbue Arrow ability as higher-level ones. Zevox
McJarvis 06-19-07, 04:45 PM	It has some pure convenience benefits -- get around the ally exp penalty if that's important to you, It actually doesn't. It is treated just like leadership for gp/xp ratios, so far as I know. [Though I don't recall ever seeing a thrall in the arena, so I don't know for sure] don't have to quest for your dudes (the ability clearly states that they just show up after 24 hours), Granted meaning you can change them out as much as you like, leadership mods and Cha penalties don't matter (leadership mods b/c the ability says they don't, Cha because the double Thrallherd level stacking just overpowers it). I've never really felt like the mods/cha were very hard to overcome, but others disagree. The problem here is that on a level 20 build ignoring cha is important-> but we only have a 10-level curve here[maybe 15 now, but even then not many will make it there]. From an optimization standpoint, cha mods to leadership can almost be ignored at early levels. Also note that cha is inheriently not a dump stat here due to egowhip. You do also get the crazy cheapening dominate thing once a day, for what that's worth. You only save pp on dominate 1/day, except for the being able to ignore augments for creature-type effects, which are kinda cool. Unfortunately, though, Pro: evil stops this in its tracks & is pretty darn common in the arena. Also note that the pp savings on dominate get dwarfed by that lost caster level, eventually. That said, yeah, it's mostly a flavor class. Especially since you have to blow a feat on inquisitor to get in. In the end the problem[as I see it] is that in order to get in you have to burn a feat & lose a manifester level. You could just as easily burn a feat & NOT lose a manifester level, plus get those bonus feats from psion levels[eventually]. In regular games the class is GREAT because unlike leadership, you get that ally at ECL-1. In CoCo, leadership blows it out of the water in every way. [Flexibility, more feats, don't have to be a telepath[or even a psion], etc, etc, etc.]
amalcon 06-19-07, 04:47 PM	Looking over the Imbue Arrow ability - I'm not sure how much effect this would have. Could I imbue an arrow with any spell as long as it has an "area" entry? Can I put something like Ray of Enfeeblement into it (no area entry)? What about a touch spell? Speaking of which -- a thing about that ability has always made me wonder. If you hit something with the arrow, with a spell that has a duration, does the spell's area move with them? (If so, Imbue Antimagic Field is brutal; if not, it's basically a counterspell)
TelinArtho 06-19-07, 04:47 PM	I did a search through the past characters in the Characters thread and Eraca was the only one to show up... so yeah - I've taken a look at her. If the imbue arrow only works for spells with "area" then it is indeed of limited use. I'm not sure if it will get off the planning stages, but I'm still looking at it as a possibility.
Macbrea 06-19-07, 04:47 PM	Could try: Fighter 1/Wizard 3/Elf Paragon 3/ Eldritch knight 2/Arcane archer 2/Eldritch knight +1/Arcane Archer +8
Zevox 06-19-07, 04:47 PM	It actually doesn't. It is treated just like leadership for gp/xp ratios, so far as I know. Not so. It uses up space from your CA so that you can't have endless chains of cohorts, but does not adjust rewards since its a class ally. Zevox
McJarvis 06-19-07, 04:50 PM	Not so. It uses up space from your CA so that you can't have endless chains of cohorts, but does not adjust rewards since its a class ally. Score one for thrallherds, I guess. Leadership is still inanely better. I've suggested a number of things that could be implemented to make the thrallherd balanced, but all have been ignored, mostly because no one has a thrallherd. [One such: force a 25pt buy & have the thralls be NPC-classes only.(but allowed to be a normal ECL-1) An even better suggestion is to keep everything as-is right now on the thrallherd side & restrict leadership cohorts from having PC classes [which, IMO, would make leadership into a regular-powered feat, instead of the powerhouse it currently is] You know, since leadership cohorts/followers are not player characters.
TelinArtho 06-19-07, 04:53 PM	Could try: Fighter 1/Wizard 3/Elf Paragon 3/ Eldritch knight 2/Arcane archer 2/Eldritch knight +1/Arcane Archer +8 Not a bad idea - though certainly more of a difficult build to start with. The biggest challenge is of course overcoming the builds weaknesses start at ECL3... Still - I'll have to give it some more thought.
McJarvis 06-19-07, 04:55 PM	Personally I always liked the Elven bard/fighter arcane archers. Sleep arrows are yummy, and you could do a UMD/scroll of anti-magic field to overcome not having that one your spellist. Of course, in non-core, the Bard/Arcane Archer/Sublime Chord/Eldritch Knight is a favorite of mine.
TelinArtho 06-19-07, 04:56 PM	Another question about imbue arrow. According to the description - the spell and the firing of the arrow is a standard action. Does this override the casting time of the spell (sleep, deep slumber for instance)?
Zevox 06-19-07, 04:58 PM	Another question about imbue arrow. According to the description - the spell and the firing of the arrow is a standard action. Does this override the casting time of the spell (sleep, deep slumber for instance)? You are correct sir. Zevox
McJarvis 06-19-07, 05:22 PM	O_O I just ran the numbers on expected PP gain from wilder's energy surge. Total gains max out at levels 3 and 7 (!!!!!), then go into negative numbers later. I never realized what a dip class that is... Simple calcuation: expected PP gain (% chance of no enervation times magnitude of surge) minus expected PP loss (% chance of enervation times Wilder level) [Level:Wild Surge] table [with Expected PP gain per manifestation #'s] note that this is independant of how much PP you use of your own to manifest. [you always only have a chance of gaining the magnitude of the wild surge & a chance to lose your wilder level in PP] 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 0.9 2 0.85 3 0.8 1.5 4 0.75 1.4 5 0.7 1.3 6 0.65 1.2 7 0.6 1.1 1.5 8 0.55 1 1.35 9 0.5 0.9 1.2 10 0.45 0.8 1.05 11 0.4 0.7 0.9 1 12 0.35 0.6 0.75 0.8 13 0.3 0.5 0.6 0.6 14 0.25 0.4 0.45 0.4 15 0.2 0.3 0.3 0.2 0 16 0.15 0.2 0.15 0 -0.25 17 0.1 0.1 0 -0.2 -0.5 18 0.05 0 -0.15 -0.4 -0.75 19 0 -0.1 -0.3 -0.6 -1 -1.5 20 -0.05 -0.2 -0.45 -0.8 -1.25 -1.8 Note that since there is practically no way to control PP loss[other than regulating enervation likelyhood], these numbers should always stay true. edit-> Actually, since you lose your wilder level in PP instead of your manifester level, you could just prestige out of wilder & stick to +2 or +3 surging[Slayer comes to mind]
stimpydoda 06-19-07, 05:25 PM	Well... darn... I wanted to shoot for thrallherd for something different, but not it just looks lack-luster. I can change feats, powers, discipline, class, even race now....
McJarvis 06-19-07, 05:26 PM	Now that I think of it, Zevox is the only person who ever defends the thrallherd. Maybe one of these days he'll actually make one to prove to everyone that they're balanced ;)
Zevox 06-19-07, 05:27 PM	I never realized what a dip class that is... Took you this long and some mathematical calculations to figure that out? I thought it was obvious... edit-> Actually, since you lose your wilder level in PP instead of your manifester level, you could just prestige out of wilder & stick to +2 or +3 surging[Slayer comes to mind] McJarvis, meet Ephraim; Ephraim, McJarvis. Zevox
TelinArtho 06-19-07, 05:27 PM	I can't claim to understand what the heck you are trying to say there McJarvis (:P) but if you didn't notice - wilders get other abilities too that should not be ignored (Euphoria, Volatile Mind) Plus there's the factor that a surged power increases its potential on multiple spectrums (damage dice, save DC, etc) - so a single surged power might be more effective at taking out an opponent than 2+ normally manifested powers.
McJarvis 06-19-07, 05:31 PM	I can't claim to understand what the heck you are trying to say there McJarvis (:P) but if you didn't notice - wilders get other abilities too that should not be ignored (Euphoria, Volatile Mind) Plus there's the factor that a surged power increases its potential on multiple spectrums (damage dice, save DC, etc) - so a single surged power might be more effective at taking out an opponent than 2+ normally manifested powers. Volatile mind is practically worthless in the arena format, but on surging euphoria you have a point. [though prestiging to slayer simulates this via higher BAB, if nothing else] I'm only calculating based on PP savings since that's the only thing you can reasonably calculate to compare. Perhaps the point is to conserve on PP at first & then later use wild surge to act like you're six levels higher. Who knows. ~McJ~ edit-> Does volatile mind protect against egowhip? H'mm...
TelinArtho 06-19-07, 05:34 PM	Well yes - it does affect ego whip. Of course, given how high the CHA of most wilders is... its not a very likely power to be used on them.
McJarvis 06-19-07, 05:36 PM	Took you this long and some mathematical calculations to figure that out? I thought it was obvious... I've never really considered playing a wilder before, other than my initial tabletop "I'll just max vigor & energy ray things to death" build. McJarvis, meet Ephraim; Ephraim, McJarvis. Not quite what I was talking about, but yeah-> 'Rith and I have talked about that build before.
McJarvis 06-19-07, 05:37 PM	Well yes - it does affect ego whip. Of course, given how high the CHA of most wilders is... its not a very likely power to be used on them. I suppose that depends on whether it's a blaster wilder or not. Whittling away CHA would have a huge advantage if the wilder was on fight 3, since you could effectively nuke their remaining PP storage[and if you were lucky, remove any chance of them manifesting at all]
Zevox 06-19-07, 05:38 PM	Edit: Nevermind, misunderstood what McJarvis said.
McJarvis 06-19-07, 05:39 PM	You were talking about dipping into Wilder then using a PrC that raises your ML to avoid losing too many pp on enervation. Hence I pointed you to Ephraim, a Wilder/Elocater. Zevox Yeah, but the strategy would be negated if the manifesting class you crossed into was much less than full-casting.[too much PP lost] Ephraim is more of a build taking advantage of multiclassing with wilder to surge on non-wilder powers. ~McJ~
Erithmu 06-19-07, 05:42 PM	Ephraim probably isn't the best example of what it could look like. (at least by the time I'm done with her) Commonly I have seen Pal2/Wilder3/Slayer10/+5 as the base for a nasty nasty build if you want feat easy. The last 5 levels are the hard one. The nicest would probably end up as ... 4levels of Wilder and 1 of Elocator (using McJ's math) would end up with ML 18 WS+3 and BAB of 17 ... it is strong :) but those early levels are rough till you can pick up your full array of attack spells.
Zevox 06-19-07, 05:43 PM	Ephraim is more of a build taking advantage of multiclassing with wilder to surge on non-wilder powers. Eh, it seems to me that if she were doing that she'd be picking up more non-Wilder psionic class levels, or advancing her psychic warrior powers via Elocater instead of Wilder. Now, if you want a character who is about using Wild Surge on non-wilder powers, that would be my Arden Tarmik - Wild Surging expansion gained from his first War Mind level to get long-duration large size for 1 pp was just the beginning for him. I also love that the Wilder's 3/4 bab means he loses only 1 bab for his four levels, and that Wilders have the same pp progression as a Psion, giving him much better pp than your typical Psychic Warrior/War Mind. Zevox
Khaim 06-19-07, 06:28 PM	Also - there's no actual proprietorship in the CoCo - so everyone is free to steal everyone else's ideas for characters here. Consider it flattery at its best. Oh, I did.
Khaim 06-19-07, 06:36 PM	It's funny- I was considering making a Wilder today, and gave up once I realized that you can't take Expanded Knowledge at level 3. One power every two levels? Class abilities that punish you for not multiclassing? You get more HP, at least...
hogarth 06-19-07, 06:38 PM	It has some pure convenience benefits -- get around the ally exp penalty if that's important to you, don't have to quest for your dudes (the ability clearly states that they just show up after 24 hours), meaning you can change them out as much as you like, [and some other stuff]. I was going to point out the ability to swap out your "cohort" but Amalcon beat me to it. Too many undead-fighters in your league? Swap out your ghost sidekick for something more substantial. (You get the drift.)
stimpydoda 06-19-07, 06:44 PM	"Lycidas Arcades" I changed it around a bit. I don't have any prestige classes in mind right now. A pure psion could be good, I think.... Again, thanks.
MindWandererB 06-19-07, 06:46 PM	It's funny- I was considering making a Wilder today, and gave up once I realized that you can't take Expanded Knowledge at level 3. One power every two levels? Class abilities that punish you for not multiclassing? You get more HP, at least... Welcome to the reason why a wilder is one of the only three PC base classes in all of 3.5 I would never consider taking to level 20 (the others being Complete Warrior's Swashbuckler and Tome of Magic's Shadowcaster).
McJarvis 06-19-07, 08:04 PM	Welcome to the reason why a wilder is one of the only three PC base classes in all of 3.5 I would never consider taking to level 20 (the others being Complete Warrior's Swashbuckler and Tome of Magic's Shadowcaster). Ouch. You really think the Soulknife beats out the shadowcaster?
MindWandererB 06-19-07, 08:08 PM	Easily and completely. The soulknife can actually be somewhat potent with stealth, thrown blades, and psionic feats. The shadowcaster is a sad excuse for a spellcaster. Now maybe the shadowcaster might win in a duel, just because spellcasters are better then the average PC in general, but there's no reason to be a shadowcaster over any other spellcasting class.
McJarvis 06-19-07, 08:11 PM	Easily and completely. The soulknife can actually be somewhat potent with stealth, thrown blades, and psionic feats. The shadowcaster is a sad excuse for a spellcaster. Now maybe the shadowcaster might win in a duel, just because spellcasters are better then the average PC in general, but there's no reason to be a shadowcaster over any other spellcasting class. I think the shadowcaster at least offers nice flavor. I'd use one as a fully-optimized NPC villain vs a local table-top party any day[since fully optimizing regular characters has a nasty tendency of killing parties, in my case] DM: Ok, you hear a crossbow bolt go by your shoulder. Player 1: What? We're not in battle DM: You hear another one. Player 2: I make a spot check. DM: (without rolling): you can't see her. A snake is attacking you. Players: (in unison) D@$#! We're only level 2, what do you expect us to do? ;)
Zevox 06-19-07, 08:24 PM	A pure psion could be good, I think.... Regretfully, as far as core goes, pure Psion is about the only good option Psions seem to have, unless you want to do a Cerebremancer. I made my Psion Istima with the plan to make him a Metamind, only to have it pointed out that Metaminds suck. Then I considered Psion Uncarnate, but came to the conclusion that they lose too many manifester levels to be good as anything but a curiosity. The only other PrC that works for pure psions is Thrallherd, which has two huge advantages over the other two in that it loses only one manifester level unless you take it all the way to level 10 and that it gains a leadership-like ally, but has some stringent qualifications which include one feat and one power which are virtually useless here. All the good Psionic PrCs are for gishes or warriors with a pinch of psionic power, it seems (Slayer, War Mind, Psionic Fist, and Elocater). Anyway, your character looks fine, if a bit cookie cutter. At least hes not a Kineticist. Welcome to the reason why a wilder is one of the only three PC base classes in all of 3.5 I would never consider taking to level 20 (the others being Complete Warrior's Swashbuckler and Tome of Magic's Shadowcaster). The Swashbuckler? Really? Thats one of my favorite non-core "core" classes. If we started allowing things from the Complete books around here, a Swashbuckler would be the second thing I'd start (the first being a Warlock, which is my favorite non-core class). Might not be a straight Swashbuckler, just because you really need magic or psionics to compete around here, but then again I might make a straight Swashbuckler for pure questing/campaigning. Zevox
MindWandererB 06-19-07, 08:30 PM	Regretfully, as far as core goes, pure Psion is about the only good option Psions seem to have, unless you want to do a Cerebremancer. I made my Psion Istima with the plan to make him a Metamind, only to have it pointed out that Metaminds suck. Then I considered Psion Uncarnate, but came to the conclusion that they lose too many manifester levels to be good as anything but a curiosity. The only other PrC that works for pure psions is Thrallherd, which has two huge advantages over the other two in that it loses only one manifester level unless you take it all the way to level 10 and that it gains a leadership-like ally, but has some stringent qualifications which include one feat and one power which are virtually useless here. All the good Psionic PrCs are for gishes or warriors with a pinch of psionic power, it seems (Slayer, War Mind, Psionic Fist, and Elocater). Anyway, your character looks fine, if a bit cookie cutter. At least hes not a Kineticist. The Swashbuckler? Really? Thats one of my favorite non-core "core" classes. If we started allowing things from the Complete books around here, a Swashbuckler would be the second thing I'd start (the first being a Warlock, which is my favorite non-core class). Might not be a straight Swashbuckler, just because you really need magic or psionics to compete around here, but then again I might make a straight Swashbuckler for pure questing/campaigning. Zevox I like the swashbuckler flavor, but past level 3 or so, it gets no features worth having. There are a dozen warrior classes I'd rather take and call myself a swashbuckler, Fighter not the least of them, than the actual swashbuckler class. Re: Psions: Don't forget the Slayer. For 2 caster levels, or for one caster level and one feat, you get some nice payoffs: full BAB, several defensive abilities, and a nice skill selection and points.
Zevox 06-19-07, 08:37 PM	Re: Psions: Don't forget the Slayer. For 2 caster levels, or for one caster level and one feat, you get some nice payoffs: full BAB, several defensive abilities, and a nice skill selection and points. I didn't forget it - like I said, its a gish class. Especially in flavor, where it makes no sense for a straight Psion to take the class. Sauro recommended that to me for Istima too back when I first had how terrible Metamind is brought to my attention, but the class just doesn't fit with anyone trying to play a straight manifester Psion. Pure Psions just get screwed in terms of PrCs, basically. If only they had some more like the PrCs that Wizards get - Archmage and Loremaster are both great, both stat and flavor wise, and even Arcane Trickster at least gets full spellcasting progression. Zevox
stimpydoda 06-19-07, 08:39 PM	Just curious, what are some builds that you haven't seen around here or some that would be interesting to see more of?
Erithmu 06-19-07, 08:46 PM	Builds: There are lots that are just hard to get going. Monster builds are probably the most common lacking (not counting ghosts, planetouched, and the occasional Half dragon/fiend/celestial) but those are harsh to play w/ the LA and HD investment. Sneak builds don't get much attention, but are hard to do in ECL 3 with the arena map not having a ton of cover, most of those go into shadowdancer so they don't need cover. If you look at the rules of Gladius for reputation, any of the classes that grant special power are probably the ones that don't get used much. There are a few here and there, but they don't get much. More than anything is probably some form of 'mutt' build using interesting class combinations to get some results would be the most likely to be something that hasn't been seen. I think Ephraim is one of those (I still have another PrC that needs to be added to her list of classes in a few levels).
Zevox 06-19-07, 08:46 PM	Just curious, what are some builds that you haven't seen around here or some that would be interesting to see more of? If its not a Grey Elf Wizard and/or Psion, a grappling Half-Giant Monk and/or Psychic Warrior, a Druid on a Dire Bat, or a Halfling Druid on a Riding Dog, I'd be happy to see more of it. Those are the really common cookie characters around here - the first two we've never lacked for, and the last two seem to have become common since the first ones I can recall seeing (Aerryl Nalladar for the former, Little Daisy for the latter) became successful. Zevox
hogarth 06-19-07, 08:55 PM	If its not a Grey Elf Wizard and/or Psion, a grappling Half-Giant Monk and/or Psychic Warrior, a Druid on a Dire Bat, or a Halfling Druid on a Riding Dog, I'd be happy to see more of it. I'll add "full (or almost full) caster/manifester on a light warhorse/hippogriff/pegasus" to that list.
Zevox 06-19-07, 09:00 PM	I'll add "full (or almost full) caster on a hippogriff/pegasus" to that list. *raised eyebrow* Really? I don't think we've had that many of those around here. Istima is the only Pegasus-mounted full caster I can recall, and Ceilia and Mithos are the only Hippogriff-mountees I know of (and Ceilia has just turned in hers for a Griffon, while Mithos will be abandoning his at level 9 when he gets his Pegasus Psychic Warrior cohort). Thats not a common character type at all from where I'm sitting. Zevox
MindWandererB 06-19-07, 09:25 PM	If its not a Grey Elf Wizard and/or Psion, a grappling Half-Giant Monk and/or Psychic Warrior, a Druid on a Dire Bat, or a Halfling Druid on a Riding Dog, I'd be happy to see more of it. Those are the really common cookie characters around here - the first two we've never lacked for, and the last two seem to have become common since the first ones I can recall seeing (Aerryl Nalladar for the former, Little Daisy for the latter) became successful.And at the time, Sunstroke was the only Half-Giant Monk/Psychic Warrior on the market, too. (There were others that were one or the other, but he was the first that was both, that I know of.) He looked better on paper.... Ironically, although dire bat-riding druids are pretty common now, I based that idea on Mektos, with his stunt of shrinking himself to ride an eagle. Mountie casters are a growing trend. They're pretty "young," so many have only a horse so far.
MindWandererB 06-19-07, 09:30 PM	Having never run TK before, I need clarification on the following: Loddick hops back a step and pulls his scimitar, charging it with energy he releases his grip as it floats in the air. Other weapons on his person spring to life and fly at his two targets. I'm assuming that since the Green djinni charged I can just 5ft step to get out of his range. So ... 5ft step draw scimitar charge w/ DC TK Thrust +14 on every attack 3 daggers at the almost dead one (the charging one) 3 daggers, Falchion, and DC charged Scimitar at the other. Free: drop prone.Now, all the weapons other than the scimitar are sheathed (presumably securely) somewhere on Loddick's person. It seems odd that one would be able to throw them just like that. Is there a precedent or anything regarding this application?
Zevox 06-19-07, 09:33 PM	Mountie casters are a growing trend. They're pretty "young," so many have only a horse so far. Hm, well, I guess I have seen a few mounted Psions around lately... mostly templer10's, but still... Great, so I may have started the latest trend myself with Istima (hes the first mounted caster of that kind I recall). Well, at least he'll always be unique as our first Great Reknown Goblin. :) Zevox
Zevox 06-19-07, 09:35 PM	Having never run TK before, I need clarification on the following: Now, all the weapons other than the scimitar are sheathed (presumably securely) somewhere on Loddick's person. It seems odd that one would be able to throw them just like that. Is there a precedent or anything regarding this application? That issue came up in the Iron Man, I think (Loddick vs one of Sauro's characters... or Sauro was running the fight, but I know Sauro was involved either way). Can't recall what the resolution was though. Most TK Thrusters tend to just use oversized arrows they drop anyway... Zevox
McJarvis 06-19-07, 09:36 PM	Hm, well, I guess I have seen a few mounted Psions around lately... mostly templer10's, but still... Great, so I may have started the latest trend myself with Istima (hes the first mounted caster of that kind I recall). Well, at least he'll always be unique as our first Great Reknown Goblin. :) Zevox Every caster I've ever done has been mounted ;) It's not that hard to put the a +4 dex[thanks grey elf//touch spells], 2 cross-class ranks in ride, & a huge speed advantage together...
Zevox 06-19-07, 09:45 PM	Every caster I've ever done has been mounted ;) It's not that hard to put the a +4 dex[thanks grey elf//touch spells], 2 cross-class ranks in ride, & a huge speed advantage together... Maybe, but Istima was around before you came back, and if you were playing mounted casters before you left the first time, it sure never caught on, because the closest thing to a mounted caster I recall before Istima was the odd mounted Psychic Warrior or Cleric (like Harvey, for instance, or Abyssal's original Jonathan Raven [who was, incidentally, my inspiration for Ceilia]). And two cross-class ranks only? Bah, thats no mounted character, thats just an opportunist using mounts for a circumstantial speed boost :P . Get yourself the Mounted Combat feat and at least 5 ranks in ride, and then we'll talk. Zevox
Erithmu 06-19-07, 09:51 PM	There were lots of arcane mounted casters on phantom steeds, but that is about it.
SauroGrenom 06-19-07, 10:28 PM	Sneak builds don't get much attention, but are hard to do in ECL 3 with the arena map not having a ton of cover, most of those go into shadowdancer so they don't need cover. Sneak builds just don't work well in the arena setting until you get hide in plain sight. We've done lots of things to "help" them, but it's all really kind of pointless IMO. Sneaks work well in situations where they get the jump on another character and control the state of combat ie where they can negate another person's ability to attack them or attack outside of combat awareness. Also they work well in the middle of large combat where they are not the most threatening person to deal with. The classic rogue character gets in his sneak attack from flanking the BBEG while the BBEG is bashing in the fighter's skull. That's very different from the "nay nay nay you can't find me :P *plink*" kind of thing that we get here. The arena is effectively mono v mono combat in a cage. Some cages are bigger than others, but it's all a cage none the less. Sneaks cannot hide forever, and if you don't have some way to dish enough damage fast enough, then you get found before you take the opponent down. That's the major problem for sneak builds. Besides, these kinds of battles are the most tiresome to run as a pitlord. You have round after round with dozens of complicated skill checks with distance modifiers changing all the time, and nothing happens most of the time. So these battles drag on and on and on... personally I dislike sneaks in the arena. IMO they just don't fit well in our setting. All of the efforts to "help" sneaks have backfired. I think that's because they are simply not well suited for our setting.
hogarth 06-19-07, 10:39 PM	Besides, these kinds of battles are the most tiresome to run as a pitlord. You have round after round with dozens of complicated skill checks with distance modifiers changing all the time, and nothing happens most of the time. So these battles drag on and on and on... personally I dislike sneaks in the arena. IMO they just don't fit well in our setting. All of the efforts to "help" sneaks have backfired. I think that's because they are simply not well suited for our setting. I don't think it particularly hurts a character to be a bit sneaky -- sneakiness is only a tattoo of Chameleon and a potion of Silence away, after all. The problem (IMO) is characters that sneak up to you, plink you for three or four points of damage, then go hide again. Repeat that 20 times or more and it gets rather dull and time-consuming. I prefer my sneaky characters to be more along the lines of "use a potion of Invisibility to get close enough to do a devastating first strike/cast a save-or-die, then mop up the remains".
NiQil 06-19-07, 10:40 PM	I don't think it particularly hurts a character to be a bit sneaky -- sneakiness is only a tattoo of Chameleon and a potion of Silence away, after all. The problem (IMO) is characters that sneak up to you, plink you for three or four points of damage, then go hide again. Repeat that 20 times or more and it gets rather dull and time-consuming. I prefer my sneaky characters to be more along the lines of "use a potion of Invisibility to get close enough to do a devastating first strike/cast a save-or-die, then mop up the remains". I agree...sneaks in and of themselves are not the problem. Sneaky plinkers are the problem. If sneaks have a way of dealing decent amounts of damage, they are fine. It's the sneaky plinker that hogarth mentions that takes 75 rounds to deal 30 points of damage that is the problem.
SauroGrenom 06-19-07, 10:51 PM	Maybe, but Istima was around before you came back, and if you were playing mounted casters before you left the first time, it sure never caught on, because the closest thing to a mounted caster I recall before Istima was the odd mounted Psychic Warrior or Cleric (like Harvey, for instance, or Abyssal's original Jonathan Raven [who was, incidentally, my inspiration for Ceilia]).I think mounted casters go way back... At least as far back as I've every been here. Uhme was a mounted caster. As far as I can recall there are basically 4 kinds of caster characters. There's the mounted caster, the flying caster, the uber save or die caster and the uber buff caster. There are examples of each of those from the very beginning of CoCo as far back as I can recall.
NiQil 06-19-07, 10:54 PM	I think mounted casters go way back... At least as far back as I've every been here. Uhme was a mounted caster. As far as I can recall there are basically 4 kinds of caster characters. There's the mounted caster, the flying caster, the uber save or die caster and the uber buff caster. There are examples of each of those from the very beginning of CoCo as far back as I can recall. You forgot two...the sneaky alpha-strike caster (often utilizing invisibility, darkness, etc) and the familiar-touch spell caster. These two often go together as well.
SauroGrenom 06-19-07, 11:03 PM	You forgot two...the sneaky alpha-strike caster (often utilizing invisibility) and the familiar-touch spell caster.Yea, well there are lots of ways to cause damage. And most casters use a combination of various casting tactics. Generaly, you need to either slay the opponent right away, or use some way to keep out of melee. Flight and mounts or evasive spells (like invisibility) help keep you out of melee, and save or die/ alpha strike tactics end the battle immediately before melee threatens you. Some guys use evasive spells to buy time for a half dozen buffs and then come out with some uber tactic. My point is that all these kinds of strategies have been around for a very long time.
Khaim 06-19-07, 11:57 PM	Quick rules question: Are wands divided into arcane/divine like scrolls are? I'm making a bard and I'm wondering if I can afford a wand of CLW. For that matter, what are some good spells for a Bard 2/3?
Zevox 06-20-07, 12:01 AM	Quick rules question: Are wands divided into arcane/divine like scrolls are? I'm making a bard and I'm wondering if I can afford a wand of CLW. For that matter, what are some good spells for a Bard 2/3? For the first, no, they are not. Just look at the rules on them - theres no indication they are like there is with scrolls, hence they are not. Good 1st-level Bard spells include: Expeditious Retreat, Hideous Laughter, Grease, Cure Light Wounds, and Sleep. Others may be argued though (Ventriloquism or Silent Image, for instance). For cantrips, nothing is particularly great, so just grab whatever you want - the only note is that if you don't want to take spellcraft ranks to use scrolls, be sure to grab Read Magic. Zevox
Khaim 06-20-07, 12:09 AM	All right, good. I'm thinking of making my bard an orc. Reading the UA material, it looks like water orcs are far superior to normal orcs. Problem is, I don't have 10 credits. Should I just play a normal orc? If I had the option to "upgrade" later I'd just do that, but since it's a racial choice that doesn't seem possible.
Erithmu 06-20-07, 12:13 AM	That issue came up in the Iron Man, I think (Loddick vs one of Sauro's characters... or Sauro was running the fight, but I know Sauro was involved either way). Can't recall what the resolution was though. Most TK Thrusters tend to just use oversized arrows they drop anyway... Zevox Having never run TK before, I need clarification on the following: Now, all the weapons other than the scimitar are sheathed (presumably securely) somewhere on Loddick's person. It seems odd that one would be able to throw them just like that. Is there a precedent or anything regarding this application? I looked back through the IMT thread Sauro and Telin both said that the weapons to be TK'd would need to not be in sheaths (much to many a chagrin) who had no problem with a personal choice to fail the saving throw. I'll probably cross post this in the Courtroom just to get the issue sorted out. @MWB: I'll come up with a different move for Loddick in the Quest.
Zevox 06-20-07, 12:13 AM	All right, good. I'm thinking of making my bard an orc. Reading the UA material, it looks like water orcs are far superior to normal orcs. Problem is, I don't have 10 credits. Should I just play a normal orc? If I had the option to "upgrade" later I'd just do that, but since it's a racial choice that doesn't seem possible. They're not superior here, though. When we implemented the UA variants, we noticed that some were imbalanced, and changed them. Water races were one of those - they no longer sport that free +2 con from the normal race (else you'd be right, Water Orcs and Water Halflings would be inherently superior to their base races). A Water Orc here is just a normal Orc with +1 to attack vs fire creatues and -2 to saves against their spells/SLAs/etc. Edit: Slight correction, we did fix the ability imbalance, but is wasn't by removing the +2 con, but by removing the Halfling's +2 dex and reducing the Orc's strength to +2 from +4. Tip: When looking at UA variants for here, always look at the ones in our rules thread, as some have changes from the base ones to preserve balance in ways like this. Zevox
UserNamer 06-20-07, 07:20 AM	For the first, no, they are not. Just look at the rules on them - theres no indication they are like there is with scrolls, hence they are not. Good 1st-level Bard spells include: Expeditious Retreat, Hideous Laughter, Grease, Cure Light Wounds, and Sleep. Others may be argued though (Ventriloquism or Silent Image, for instance). For cantrips, nothing is particularly great, so just grab whatever you want - the only note is that if you don't want to take spellcraft ranks to use scrolls, be sure to grab Read Magic. Zevox Detect Magic is oke vs. Invisibility
UserNamer 06-20-07, 07:22 AM	I have some questions about having a party: - If u have a ecl5 party(2x ecl3) is the max cr you can have 3(like an ecl5) or 2(like 2 ecl3's)? - Question for allies requires ecl5, if you have this kind of team, are you allowed to quest for allies together? As an ecl5? - Do you both need the HA or just one of you?
McJarvis 06-20-07, 10:03 AM	I already know the answer, but I gotta ask-> right? Is there anyway to prebuff LOTS of rolls? Say I have a Wilder 7/Slayer 3 build who bought a torc of power. [MAJOR gp investment] Statistically speaking, your expected PP gain from bestow power is -2(power points spent)+4(power points gained/w +3 surge)- .15*7(chance of enervation * wilder level pp loss) = ~+1 PP per manifestation. So chances are that I'll fill up my power point reserve before emptying it out. [especially as the power point reserve gets larger and larger] Now, could I prebuff "Manifest Bestow Power with +3 surge until PP pool is empty or completely full" and expect the pitlord to do the rolls? :angel:
UserNamer 06-20-07, 10:08 AM	This will get nerfed anyway, you should have just done it so that you could have some profit from it in 1 cycle.
McJarvis 06-20-07, 10:12 AM	This will get nerfed anyway, you should have just done it so that you could have some profit from it in 1 cycle. I dunno if it's deserving of getting nerfed. 36K gp is nothing to sneeze at. [and it's uncraftable for all CoCo-purposes, since it requires bend reality] Edit: the power cost 3, so 1- .15*7 = -.5pp The torc of power reduces powers by 1 pp per manifestation.
UserNamer 06-20-07, 10:14 AM	Yea, i cought that 5 seconds after writing.
UserNamer 06-20-07, 10:15 AM	I dunno if it's deserving of getting nerfed. 36K gp is nothing to sneeze at. [and it's uncraftable for all CoCo-purposes, since it requires bend reality] You get max pp every fight, so i thnk they will. For balancing puropses I gues. If it was for me, I wouldn't nerf it.
hogarth 06-20-07, 10:16 AM	I dunno if it's deserving of getting nerfed. 36K gp is nothing to sneeze at. I don't think Bestow Power shenanigans work with a single manifester (well, maybe if you used Fission). You link your mind with another psionic creature’s mind, creating a brief conduit through which mental energy can be shared. The other day I was trying to buy something that cost $2, so I gave the guy behind the register a dollar and another dollar that was the same as the first one. Can you believe he refused to accept the transaction? The nerve of some people! Moral of the story: Some people have the foolish belief that one thing and "another" thing have to be two different things. (But yes, it's well known that a loop is possible in theory.)
McJarvis 06-20-07, 10:19 AM	I don't think Bestow Power shenanigans work with a single manifester (well, maybe if you used Fission). The other day I was trying to buy something that cost $2, so I gave the guy behind the register a dollar and another dollar that was the same as the first one. Can you believe he refused to accept the transaction? The nerve of some people! Moral of the story: Some people have the foolish belief that one thing and "another" thing have to be two different things. (But yes, it's well known that a loop is possible in theory.) Adding leadership to the mix & having a wilder as the cohort isn't beyond me. Especially considering that an identical build would do the same[even at ECL8], and we'd only need 1 item for it to work. [we can just hand it back and forth] Really, I'm tired of people trying to shoot down these things I bring up with trivial speed bumps :P [I'd really expect more imagination from you, hogarth]
UserNamer 06-20-07, 10:21 AM	Adding leadership to the mix & having a wilder as the cohort isn't beyond me. Especially considering that an identical build would do the same[even at ECL8], and we'd only need 1 item for it to work. [we can just hand it back and forth] Really, I'm tired of people trying to shoot down these things I bring up with trivial speed bumps :P And you can do this at ecl9 right? It sounds pretty powerful.
McJarvis 06-20-07, 10:22 AM	And you can do this at ecl9 right? It sounds pretty powerful. Yeah. You just need 7 levels of wilder & the item itself, and I guess leadership now. The item is the biggest speed bump, since it's so expensive.
amalcon 06-20-07, 10:30 AM	Adding leadership to the mix & having a wilder as the cohort isn't beyond me. Especially considering that an identical build would do the same[even at ECL8], and we'd only need 1 item for it to work. [we can just hand it back and forth] Really, I'm tired of people trying to shoot down these things I bring up with trivial speed bumps :P [I'd really expect more imagination from you, hogarth] Of course, if you're doing this, you gain very little for going to the trouble of actually being a Wilder yourself. (Since you can just bestow the PP back to your cohort at cost with the Torc -- you only actually need to turn a profit on one half of the transaction)
hogarth 06-20-07, 10:32 AM	Really, I'm tired of people trying to shoot down these things I bring up with trivial speed bumps :P [I'd really expect more imagination from you, hogarth] Hey, I said it was possible (and not a new idea). How is that "trying to shoot [your idea] down"? :confused: But the topic of "actions you can do outside your cycle" brings up a question I've had in the back of my mind for a while: if a wizard knows the spell Explosive Runes, is there a limit on the number of times she can cast it while between cycles?
Khaim 06-20-07, 10:32 AM	They're not superior here, though. When we implemented the UA variants, we noticed that some were imbalanced, and changed them. I have to wonder- how many orcs did you have running around before? How many are there now? Has anyone ever played one of the water races? Orcs already have no racial abilities to speak of, and in fact have a racial penalty in the form of Light Sensitivity. Water orcs are even worse; you're going to run into Fireball and Burning Hands a lot more than you'll get to beat up on Fire Elementals. Then again, water halflings are just crazy.
Khaim 06-20-07, 10:33 AM	Of course, if you're doing this, you gain very little for going to the trouble of actually being a Wilder yourself. (Since you can just bestow the PP back to your cohort at cost with the Torc -- you only actually need to turn a profit on one half of the transaction) Hey- don't help him!
McJarvis 06-20-07, 10:34 AM	Of course, if you're doing this, you gain very little for going to the trouble of actually being a Wilder yourself. (Since you can just bestow the PP back to your cohort at cost with the Torc -- you only actually need to turn a profit on one half of the transaction) Heh..that's a pretty good point. Just need a cohort with 3 levels of Psion. [or a 3rd level follower?] I was trying to make it reasonable to pre-buff[so I was trying to cut down on time as much as possible]
TelinArtho 06-20-07, 10:41 AM	I have to wonder- how many orcs did you have running around before? How many are there now? Has anyone ever played one of the water races? Orcs already have no racial abilities to speak of, and in fact have a racial penalty in the form of Light Sensitivity. Water orcs are even worse; you're going to run into Fireball and Burning Hands a lot more than you'll get to beat up on Fire Elementals. Then again, water halflings are just crazy. Actually there's always been a fairly steady supply of orcs around - nowhere near the number of the various elves or humans - but I'd say there has always been a ready supply of them. Some just can't ignore that impressive strength bonus without a LA.
McJarvis 06-20-07, 10:51 AM	RE: Wild Surging/Bestow power I guess my question was whether you guys thought it was a _broken_ combo or just powerful [the difference being that if I tried it & it was just powerful, no nerf necessary] My reasoning on it being balanced is the extreme gp cost[well over half your gp at those levels] & the chance of hitting 0 pp despite statistically being able to always turn a profit. If an elder could pipe in that'd be lovely-> given the ease of getting this combo off. [just need to be a psion with a wilder 7 cohort, or a wilder with a level 3 psion cohort/follower] It's really just a curiosity thing, tho.
TelinArtho 06-20-07, 10:56 AM	I think it is just "too much" to prebuff. If it was something that didn't require rolls that would be one thing - but requiring the pitlord to make "unlimited" rolls until you hit one or the other spectrum is a little much. One or two rolls for, say, Good berry or for a trap is not so big of a deal. If the pitlord is looking at 10, 20, 50, 100+ rolls before even setting up the fight - that is a bit much. As to whether it is broken or not - I think it is far more likely for a ruling to come down that Pearls of Power are too powerful than this, especially since there is the possibility (albeit a limited possibility) that this hurts you occasionally.
hogarth 06-20-07, 11:07 AM	As to whether it is broken or not - I think it is far more likely for a ruling to come down that Pearls of Power are too powerful than this, especially since there is the possibility (albeit a limited possibility) that this hurts you occasionally. I thought the (unwritten) rule was that you couldn't prebuff an effect that requires rolling to avoid an adverse effect (like prebuffing poison when you don't have poison use, for instance). Note, however, that you can get a similar infinite loop without being a wilder by using Bestow Power and Affinity Field.
McJarvis 06-20-07, 11:12 AM	Note, however, that you can get a similar infinite loop without being a wilder by using Bestow Power and Affinity Field. As MWB would say, "The ECL15+ leagues are never going to open" :)
Zevox 06-20-07, 11:13 AM	I have to wonder- how many orcs did you have running around before? How many are there now? Has anyone ever played one of the water races? A fair number (far more than we've ever had Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, Halflings, Gnomes, or even Dwarves, albeit less than we've had Elves and Humans, but those are the two most common races), actually. There are still a fair number of them about, too - including an ECL 5, undefeated, Great Reknown one. And no, no one has ever played one of the Water races - I think the only variant race we've ever seen around here was the Air Goblin McJarvis used to win second place in the UnCon contest. Orcs already have no racial abilities to speak of, and in fact have a racial penalty in the form of Light Sensitivity. Water orcs are even worse; you're going to run into Fireball and Burning Hands a lot more than you'll get to beat up on Fire Elementals. On the other hand, as you noted, if we hadn't fixed them, they'd be clearly superior to the basic Orc in spite of all of that. Thats basically the definition of a broken variant from where I'm sitting. Zevox
Macbrea 06-20-07, 11:19 AM	Silly question. Why is it that Sorceror 10 (20 cha) are listed as: Spell Levels Available Per Fight: 29 (6 Cantrips) [87 Total Spell Levels / 3, rounded up] Total Spell Levels: 87 [(8 x 1), (7 x 2), (7 x 3), (6 x 4), (4 x 5)] When it really should be: Spell Levels Available Per Fight: 29 (From: 8 / 7 / 7 / 6 / 4) (6 Cantrips) [87 Total Spell Levels / 3, rounded up] Total Spell Levels: 87 [(8 x 1), (7 x 2), (7 x 3), (6 x 4), (4 x 5)] Note, you still can only cast spell slots you already have available. If you cast Magic missile with a 4th level slot it costs you the 4th level slot. Not 1 spell level.
Khaim 06-20-07, 11:19 AM	Thats basically the definition of a broken variant from where I'm sitting. I guess that's where I disagree. If the base race is underpowered to begin with, an almost strictly better variant isn't necessarily "broken" in regards to the overall arena setting, although I agree it means no one would play a normal orc. In related news, M'rusha (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12793150&postcount=1160) is up, and could use some quick help with her feats.
Zevox 06-20-07, 11:24 AM	In related news, M'rusha (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12793150&postcount=1160) is up, and could use some quick help with her feats. Well, Power Attack is a pretty basic feat for an Orc, so that seems fine. Why Open Minded though? You're already a Bard, so you've got many skill points to work with, and anyway there are better uses for feats, depending on what you want her to be able to do. Where are you going with her? Dragon Disciple? Zevox
TelinArtho 06-20-07, 11:24 AM	Silly question. Why is it that Sorceror 10 (20 cha) are listed as: Spell Levels Available Per Fight: 29 (6 Cantrips) [87 Total Spell Levels / 3, rounded up] Total Spell Levels: 87 [(8 x 1), (7 x 2), (7 x 3), (6 x 4), (4 x 5)] When it really should be: Spell Levels Available Per Fight: 29 (From: 8 / 7 / 7 / 6 / 4) (6 Cantrips) [87 Total Spell Levels / 3, rounded up] Total Spell Levels: 87 [(8 x 1), (7 x 2), (7 x 3), (6 x 4), (4 x 5)] Note, you still can only cast spell slots you already have available. If you cast Magic missile with a 4th level slot it costs you the 4th level slot. Not 1 spell level. You've got it correct - where's the error that you are noting? Post it in the Massive updates thread.
Macbrea 06-20-07, 11:26 AM	It is on the main character sheet. It only anotates for preparted casters vs spontaneous casters. Since, the character sheet isn't mandetory it isn't a huge problem, but I figured I would mention it becuase we don't particularly mention you need to state your spell levels you have cast for spontaneous casters.
hogarth 06-20-07, 11:29 AM	As MWB would say, "The ECL15+ leagues are never going to open" :) Of course, the frozen leagues are where the worst abuses go on -- you can use all of the expensive charged items you want (like a bunch of power stones of Affinity Field, say) and you get them back at the end of your cycle. Or are you saying that we aren't even allowing frozen characters of level 15+?
Khaim 06-20-07, 11:31 AM	Why Open Minded though? For ambush and outmaneuver right away. It is questionable, though; on the other hand, I can't think of anything else to take there (weapon focus seems weak). Where are you going with her? Dragon Disciple? Yep.
TelinArtho 06-20-07, 11:35 AM	For ambush and outmaneuver right away. It is questionable, though; on the other hand, I can't think of anything else to take there (weapon focus seems weak). Yep. I would think that weapon focus is a little more valuable - but to each his own I suppose. Improved Sunder is certainly something I would consider more useful. At any rate - those potions of Shield are illegal - Personal range spells cannot be made into potions: CREATING POTIONS The creator of a potion needs a level working surface and at least a few containers in which to mix liquids, as well as a source of heat to boil the brew. In addition, he needs ingredients. The costs for materials and ingredients are subsumed in the cost for brewing the potion—25 gp x the level of the spell x the level of the caster. All ingredients and materials used to brew a potion must be fresh and unused. The character must pay the full cost for brewing each potion. (Economies of scale do not apply.) The imbiber of the potion is both the caster and the target. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions. The creator must have prepared the spell to be placed in the potion (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. If casting the spell would reduce the caster’s XP total, he pays the XP cost upon beginning the brew in addition to the XP cost for making the potion itself. Material components are consumed when he begins working, but a focus is not. (A focus used in brewing a potion can be reused.) The act of brewing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.) Brewing a potion requires one day.
hogarth 06-20-07, 11:37 AM	And no, no one has ever played one of the Water races - I think the only variant race we've ever seen around here was the Air Goblin McJarvis used to win second place in the UnCon contest. One of my UnCon entries was a water orc (also for maxing out "Outmaneuver" like Khaim's does) -- an ape totem barbarian (for the climb speed)/Hand & Foot school monk. +16 Balance [4 barbarianCC, 8 monk, +2 dex, +2 monk, +2 synergy] [10 ranks] +23 Climb [4 barbarian, 6 monk, +5 str, +8 racial] [10 ranks] +25 Jump [4 barbarian, 6 monk, +5 str, +8 move, +2 synergy] [10 ranks] +23 Swim [4 barbarian, 6 monk, +5 str, +8 racial] [10 ranks] Total Outmaneuver modifier: +87
McJarvis 06-20-07, 11:44 AM	So when are we doing another contest? I loved UnCon, but felt pretty distant from Iron Man. I'm itchin to get back into the frey.
Khaim 06-20-07, 11:44 AM	Oh hey, speed bonus to Jump! Forgot about that. And yes, I think closing quickly is more important than +1 to hit. But I was actually considering taking Focus instead of Power Attack.
TelinArtho 06-20-07, 11:57 AM	Weird... I'm registering that I have a PM that is unread out of 20 in my PM Box. I go to my PMs and find none that are unread, 11 in my inbox and 8 in my outbox... EDIT - actually it just looks like nothing is updating... wonder if it is on my side or on Wizards...
stimpydoda 06-20-07, 12:02 PM	Oh hey, speed bonus to Jump! Forgot about that. And yes, I think closing quickly is more important than +1 to hit. But I was actually considering taking Focus instead of Power Attack. I would take Focus instead of Power Attack. Hitting is more important at ecl3.
Khaim 06-20-07, 01:29 PM	I would take Focus instead of Power Attack. Hitting is more important at ecl3. True. Then again, I won't get another feat until level 6.
MindWandererB 06-20-07, 01:33 PM	Weird... I'm registering that I have a PM that is unread out of 20 in my PM Box. I go to my PMs and find none that are unread, 11 in my inbox and 8 in my outbox... EDIT - actually it just looks like nothing is updating... wonder if it is on my side or on Wizards...It happens on the boards sometimes; the PM boxes ae glitchy. Try sending yourself a PM and then deleting it. That usually clears up the problem. There are still a fair number of them about, too - including an ECL 5, undefeated, Great Reknown one.One of the last full orcs I remember was Great Renown as well--Thwap McSmash. Dang, he was scary.The other day I was trying to buy something that cost $2, so I gave the guy behind the register a dollar and another dollar that was the same as the first one. Can you believe he refused to accept the transaction? The nerve of some people!I wouldn't accept it, either--and I'd call the police pronto. (Same serial number.)
TelinArtho 06-20-07, 01:59 PM	Sir Valkin is looking for a questlord starting next week (June 27th). Would be a guild quest (and could potentially be delayed if an interruption comes in), and at ECL10. Any takers?
Khaim 06-20-07, 02:05 PM	At any rate - those potions of Shield are illegal - Personal range spells cannot be made into potions: Oops. Hmm. Any suggestions on what to get instead?
TelinArtho 06-20-07, 02:20 PM	Oops. Hmm. Any suggestions on what to get instead? Well, if you want that shield bonus - then Tattoos of Force Screen would work at 100gp for a ML1 tattoo (since personal range tattoos cost double). If not - you could go for Shield of Faith for a deflection bonus instead (only +2 vs the +4 you had).
McJarvis 06-20-07, 02:22 PM	/me *wakes up & pays attention to handle animal discussion* simple, Kathren Durrol can no longer have a Light Warhorse until level 5 O_O. This is going to result in mass violations, isn't it?
Zevox 06-20-07, 02:24 PM	/me *wakes up & pays attention to handle animal discussion* O_O. This is going to result in mass violations, isn't it? Not if folks pay attention... MWB just announced the change quite publicly in the FotW thread, and it doesn't go into effect (and thus isn't an imprisonable violation) until next week. Just get the appropriate changes made in time and you should be fine. Zevox
McJarvis 06-20-07, 02:26 PM	Not if folks pay attention... MWB just announced the change quite publicly in the FotW thread, and it doesn't go into effect (and thus isn't an imprisonable violation) until next week. Just get the appropriate changes made in time and you should be fine. Zevox Methinks there must be people like myself that just plain don't read the FotW thread unless they have a specific fight issue they are looking for. Honestly, if I wasn't in the habit of reading prison violations "for fun" then I don't think I would have known until it was too late.... /me reads the list in allies section. This is going to be difficult -_- edit-> I think someone made a mistake. Wolfs and Riding dogs are practically the same stat-wise, but on different ECL levels. edit#2-> and what's the deal with heavy horse being higher ECL level than the light horse? They're really only for riding, which means the light horse is better than the heavy horse. [more speed, same hp, same AC]
MindWandererB 06-20-07, 02:50 PM	Methinks there must be people like myself that just plain don't read the FotW thread unless they have a specific fight issue they are looking for. Honestly, if I wasn't in the habit of reading prison violations "for fun" then I don't think I would have known until it was too late.... /me reads the list in allies section. This is going to be difficult -_- edit-> I think someone made a mistake. Wolfs and Riding dogs are practically the same stat-wise, but on different ECL levels. edit#2-> and what's the deal with heavy horse being higher ECL level than the light horse? They're really only for riding, which means the light horse is better than the heavy horse. [more speed, same hp, same AC] If you don't read the FotW, then you're going to miss announcements. There's no way to spread news any better than that--I don't exactly have a way to send PMs out to the entire community (although as GM, I do have the privilege of sending PMs to 10 people at once rather than 5).
Zevox 06-20-07, 02:53 PM	edit#2-> and what's the deal with heavy horse being higher ECL level than the light horse? They're really only for riding, which means the light horse is better than the heavy horse. [more speed, same hp, same AC] Trust me, I have no clue why that was done either. Thats why vote on the issue was to move all of the allies listed as ECL 4 minimum to ECL 3 - theres no a single one of them that I can see a good reason for restricting from that league. Zevox
TelinArtho 06-20-07, 02:59 PM	Methinks there must be people like myself that just plain don't read the FotW thread unless they have a specific fight issue they are looking for. Honestly, if I wasn't in the habit of reading prison violations "for fun" then I don't think I would have known until it was too late.... /me reads the list in allies section. This is going to be difficult -_- edit-> I think someone made a mistake. Wolfs and Riding dogs are practically the same stat-wise, but on different ECL levels. edit#2-> and what's the deal with heavy horse being higher ECL level than the light horse? They're really only for riding, which means the light horse is better than the heavy horse. [more speed, same hp, same AC] You'll get the message eventually - if you don't read anything that you should be reading (FotW announcements being one of them), then you'll be soon put in prison. If you don't read there - you'll get the message once everyone is held from active duty :) See it works :) Wolves are not purchasable. The only things that are on the ECL3 and 4 list are purchasable allies. Since Handle Animal isn't usable for allies until ECL5+, it was decided to move the ones that were formerly in the ECL3 and 4 list up to ECL5 to relieve confusion. As to the heavy horse vs the light horse - welcome to the confusion both Zevox and I weighed in on the matter. But hey - the two of us were out voted - so what are we going to do...
McJarvis 06-20-07, 03:07 PM	The Battles Post is a GREAT place to put announcements, since anyone using these forums has to read that post on a weekly basis or not play at all. FotW thread is, by contrast, NOT required reading since you only go there if you have "comments or concerns"... RE: Wolves/Riding dog: ok, that makes sense. RE: Horses: Ah. I'm sorry that the majority of our elders are stupid :( ;) I suppose that's a good enough reason, though.
MindWandererB 06-20-07, 03:20 PM	The Battles Post is a GREAT place to put announcements, since anyone using these forums has to read that post on a weekly basis or not play at all. FotW thread is, by contrast, NOT required reading since you only go there if you have "comments or concerns"... RE: Wolves/Riding dog: ok, that makes sense. RE: Horses: Ah. I'm sorry that the majority of our elders are stupid :( ;) I suppose that's a good enough reason, though. Actually... before I took over the Pitlords job, I never opened the Battles thread at all. I always just followed the links from the FotW thread.
Zevox 06-20-07, 03:20 PM	RE: Horses: Ah. I'm sorry that the majority of our elders are stupid :( ;) I suppose that's a good enough reason, though. More accurately, one never weighed in on the issue (NiQil), and one just passed the thing so we could move on (Vath). Sauro was the only one actually advocating leaving those things at ECL 4. Zevox
Zevox 06-20-07, 03:21 PM	Actually... before I took over the Pitlords job, I never opened the Battles thread at all. I always just followed the links from the FotW thread. Ditto. The only times I actually open that thread is when I need to link crafting to the pairings post in it and when I'm running a fight myself, and in neither case do I spend more than a moment on that front page. Zevox
McJarvis 06-20-07, 03:22 PM	Actually... before I took over the Pitlords job, I never opened the Battles thread at all. I always just followed the links from the FotW thread. Yeah, but in theory the posts with the pairings in them have to be read by people if they want to know who they are fighting. [I mean, you could have a buddy who just PMs you your pairings every week, but who is THAT lazy?]
MindWandererB 06-20-07, 03:23 PM	Yeah, but in theory the posts with the pairings in them have to be read by people if they want to know who they are fighting. [I mean, you could have a buddy who just PMs you your pairings every week, but who is THAT lazy?] Or, they just look at the copy in the Characters thread. Which is, again, what I always did.
Zevox 06-20-07, 03:23 PM	Yeah, but in theory the posts with the pairings in them have to be read by people if they want to know who they are fighting. I don't know about anyone else, but I just have the pairings post in the characters thread bookmarked. Makes it really easy to check the pairings without bothering with the fights thread. Zevox
McJarvis 06-20-07, 03:25 PM	This is yet another example of people shooting down my ideas for trivial reasons. Is it really outside the bounds of your imaginations that if the battle-thread pairings post has announcements in it, it might imply that the pairings post in the characters thread would have those announcements too? Or am I the only one thinking at the speed of jello here?
Zevox 06-20-07, 03:26 PM	This is yet another example of people shooting down my ideas for trivial reasons. Is it really outside the bounds of your imaginations that if the battle-thread pairings post has announcements in it, it might imply that the pairings post in the characters thread would have those announcements too? Or am I the only one thinking at the speed of jello here? Shooting down the idea? I didn't even think you were serious, I was just making conversation. Zevox
TelinArtho 06-20-07, 03:27 PM	Or, they just look at the copy in the Characters thread. Which is, again, what I always did. And the reason why? Because Cat posted the one in the battles thread and didn't update it until later on in the week - but the one in the characters thread was always "current." The best place for announcements is certainly the FotW thread. If that is not one of the places someone reads - it should be.
MindWandererB 06-20-07, 03:29 PM	This is yet another example of people shooting down my ideas for trivial reasons. Is it really outside the bounds of your imaginations that if the battle-thread pairings post has announcements in it, it might imply that the pairings post in the characters thread would have those announcements too? Or am I the only one thinking at the speed of jello here? If not everyone is looking at the Battles thread already, then it doesn't really matter where announcements go, does it? Either you force people to look at the Battles thread for announcements, or you force them to go to the FotW thread. Since the latter also contains ongoing discussions on various topics, especially regarding pitlording, credits, when the pairings are finalized, etc. I'd much rather people go there.
McJarvis 06-20-07, 03:32 PM	And the reason why? Because Cat posted the one in the battles thread and didn't update it until later on in the week - but the one in the characters thread was always "current." This is something that never made mechanical sense to me-> nothing in the battle's pairings ever said they were not final, and as a new character I didn't even *know* there were pairings in the characters thread until I'd already been around for four or five months. The best place for announcements is certainly the FotW thread. If that is not one of the places someone reads - it should be. I fail to see why announcements shouldn't be in a spot where all gladiators have to look anyway. [ie-> the pairings post] Especially given how long FotW threads can be, and how these "announcements" end up on page 3 or 4 of the post for those of us who restrict our browsers to 10 posts a page. This really isn't that big of a change, and it would certainly make more sense to newcomers [unless we want to be geared to ourselves only...] ~McJ~
McJarvis 06-20-07, 03:34 PM	If not everyone is looking at the Battles thread already, then it doesn't really matter where announcements go, does it? Either you force people to look at the Battles thread for announcements, or you force them to go to the FotW thread. Since the latter also contains ongoing discussions on various topics, especially regarding pitlording, credits, when the pairings are finalized, etc. I'd much rather people go there. It's not about "forcing" people to go anywhere, it's about putting the announcements were they are most likely to be read. The pairings-posts are the only posts I can think of in Gladius that you absolutely *have* to read in order to participate. Given the little effort it would take on your part, I'm not even sure why we're having this discussion. At my work when they want us to read announcements they post a sheet right above the timeclock where you punch in-> because everyone goes there. They don't just wait for people to break new rules & then hit them with punishments, or anything else like that...
TelinArtho 06-20-07, 03:39 PM	Well I guess the other side of this is that the announcements aren't in the hands of the GM this way. MWB already has plenty on his plate with pairings and the other duties he's got. The person who puts up the FotW thread has the responsibility of disseminating the news of the Announcements. Frankly, if we could get the Newspaper going more consistently - that would probably be the best place for it because a newspaper is so good for that express purpose...
MindWandererB 06-20-07, 03:44 PM	Well I guess the other side of this is that the announcements aren't in the hands of the GM this way. MWB already has plenty on his plate with pairings and the other duties he's got. The person who puts up the FotW thread has the responsibility of disseminating the news of the Announcements. Frankly, if we could get the Newspaper going more consistently - that would probably be the best place for it because a newspaper is so good for that express purpose...Amen. (You hear that, Vath? Speaking of which, I have a proposal on how to deal with the Newspaper... I'll send you a PM.) I want people to go to the FotW thread--and read it-- for announcements anyway, because there's inevitably info there that they won't get anywhere else. Besides... you wouldn't believe how many times people fail to see stuff that gets put in the pairings post. Selective attention.
Rauul 06-20-07, 03:45 PM	Well I guess the other side of this is that the announcements aren't in the hands of the GM this way. MWB already has plenty on his plate with pairings and the other duties he's got. The person who puts up the FotW thread has the responsibility of disseminating the news of the Announcements. Frankly, if we could get the Newspaper going more consistently - that would probably be the best place for it because a newspaper is so good for that express purpose... Well massive updates would also be a good choice if it could be made for Just elders to post in and used to tell us Exactly what is being updated...(and so argumentive people can't post in there *hint hint*) Quite frankly.. all i really wish to know is whats going to be changed this week that i need to update my active charaters so they stay out of prison.. I would also suggest a 2 week grace period from major changes to prisonable offences.. to give the players time to update and to blackmarket,training hall as needed..
TelinArtho 06-20-07, 03:50 PM	Frankly - once the change gets implemented - everyone should be abiding by it in the current week. Why should player A who keeps up on everything be subjected to player B's illegal character just because player B doesn't keep up on everything. In this case, player B might be Zax with his group of allies that have just been nerfed. If the change goes into effect - Zax should not be legal in bringing those allies in.
hogarth 06-20-07, 03:51 PM	It's not about "forcing" people to go anywhere, it's about putting the announcements were they are most likely to be read. The pairings-posts are the only posts I can think of in Gladius that you absolutely *have* to read in order to participate. Given the little effort it would take on your part, I'm not even sure why we're having this discussion. I agree with you 100% that there should be an official place to announce rules changes. I don't care where it is, as long as it's somewhere that doesn't change (like the way that new rulings are posted in a special post in the Courtroom thread). We're still a quantum leap ahead of the previous administration, where sometimes the only way I could find out about rules changes was to download a new copy of the Rules of Gladius and run: diff old_rules.txt new_rules.txt | more
SauroGrenom 06-20-07, 03:55 PM	edit#2-> and what's the deal with heavy horse being higher ECL level than the light horse? They're really only for riding, which means the light horse is better than the heavy horse. [more speed, same hp, same AC]The places of the creatures on the list has little to do with the creature's suitability as a mount. We have no problems with mounts, or mounted characters or mounted combat. The suitability of a particular creature as a mount only factored into the decision process with respect the ability to attack while the rider attacks. The issue I was hoping to address with this list is specifically the significance of the creature as a melee combatant who may or may not be carrying a rider. The value of a creature as a mount is secondary to that. Creatures that can attack while a rider also attacks show up on the ECL4 list. Those that cannot attack with a rider show up on the ECL3 list. The exception is the Heavy Horse, because the increased strength and increased damage dice makes it more dangerous than everything else on the ECL3 list. Then add in the fact that the higher strength potentially allows for the creature to be equipped with barding, and its superiority over everything else on the ECL3 list is ensured. So I bumped it up a notch. In the ECL4 list, the Mule is the best combatant. But the War Pony and Riding Dog are weaker and have less HP than the Heavy Horse. Also the heavy horse has the fastest movement speed on the ECL4 list. So in some ways it's better than the others at ECL4, and in other ways it's not as good. So that looks like a nice balanced place to put the creature.
McJarvis 06-20-07, 03:57 PM	A point regarding announcements-> I just looked at the FotW thread, and reading it reminded me why I don't. The post: Fights of the Week: June 20th Please don't edit the sheet after the deadline or you will lose the match. Rules of Gladius All that you need to know is written in the Rules of Gladius. It could be useful also to give a look to the Court Decisions Part 1 and Part 2. Please do not make fake accounts or insult the Elders. Pairings GM MindwandererB will pair the active Characters of Gladius after the deadline. Link to pairings. Make sure that your character is not in prison. Posted every week. I never honestly read it-> and it really doesn't inform me[A long-standing player] of anything important. Pitlording You should use the CoCo Dice Roller (http://www.hwx.it/wizards.com) for the fight. If you need it, there is a nice template ready to use that will help. You could find the Battle Map Tag Generator (http://www.hwx.it/coco) for dynamic Maps very useful. You must post a link to your fight in this thread when it is complete. If you need a quick and dirty tool to calculate distances between two points (in 2-D or 3-D), this tool used to suffice until it got taken down without giving us proper notification... the Nerve Another useful link is the Quick Access tables for XP and Gold. If a fight needs to be rerun, the Pitlord has to inform the Pitlords account. He cannot react to requests from Players because the other player and the pitlord might disagree. He has no time to read the fight and the discussion. Please keep that in mind. PMs from players with rerun requests won't have an impact. Again, you're really just quoting from the Pitlords part of the rules. I feel like not many people use this? Recent News and Developments finally! The Iron Man tournament is complete. Congratulations to the finalists: 1st Place: SauroGrenom, Raskos the Jade Father (Phrenic Gray Elf Wizard 3/Kineticist 3/Cerebremancer 2) 2nd Place: MindWandererB, Besthirah Lafali (Wood Elf Werebat (Natural) Monk 3) 3rd Place: Erithmu and MindWandererB, The Arcane Hand - Owen Ir'Tolden (Human Abjurer 5/Red Wizard 3) and Silis Lueria (Gray Elf Rogue 3/Diviner 5) 4th Place: MindWandererB, Aerryl Nalladar (Sylvan Elf Druid 10) I could care less. I get the impression that unless you were involved in Iron man, this bit of news is worthless. [Despite its name, Iron Man was just a long version of Uncon in my eyes. Perhaps more importantly-> an exclusive one that only a handful of people got to participate in] Also, the council has finally figured out what to do about Handle Animal allies. Read the results here and here. Anyone who has a handle animal/purchased ally that doesn't conform to these rules is now eligible to be put in prison. Anyone who has a handle animal/purchased ally that doesn't conform to these rules will be soon eligible to be put in prison. Change them now to avoid such an ugly fate. And because 90% of the Weekly post fight is irelevent to me, I miss this gleaming bit of information here. Really, this is the *only* important piece of information in the entire FotW post this week. Comments & Concerns Post any comments or concerns for this weeks fights in this thread. Be kind and courteous to your fellow posters, and don't feed the pitlords. Please remember that they do hard work and consume a lot of time to let you play. Above all, have FUN! If you have questions or comments on any of the changes, please make your posts be heard in the Council of Gladius! More standard stuff that anyone who reads the rules thread would know. This is why I don't bother with the FotW thread. At least the vast majority of the pairings thread is useful information. On top of that there are at least 3->5 pages of posts before the pairings even go up every week, which is also[from my understanding] where some announcements take place. [this week is already topping out 3 on my settings]
Hirumajoe 06-20-07, 04:00 PM	Selective attention. I've got that in spades. :D I just read the fight pairings, and just the ones with my name next to it. I couldn't tell you what the current time roll, guild events, or what ever is in that filler at the top of the pairings is. I once a week hit the FotW first post and the latest prison listing. Everything else is just bonus browsing. And as a new player, you get directed to the FoTW posts as the 7th point in the Quick Start guide. Its also fairly clearly a happenin' thread. :) Once people realize that there are announcements in a specific location, they know to check there. If you have enough CoCo savy to create a character, get it activated and then point out pitlord mistakes in the FotW thread then you know there's an announcement section on the first post. *Shrug*. If you don't know there's an announcement section there, then you're just as likely not to know there's an announcement section at the top of the pairings.
Salrantol 06-20-07, 05:22 PM	Can spell immunity protect against psionic powers, what with transparency and all?
SauroGrenom 06-20-07, 05:24 PM	Can spell immunity protect against psionic powers, what with transparency and all?yep.
Salrantol 06-20-07, 05:25 PM	Well, then, Enoch's getting pretty antsy about getting to level 7, for Spell Immunity: Energy Missile, because he's getting a little sick of it.
Zevox 06-20-07, 05:27 PM	Can spell immunity protect against psionic powers, what with transparency and all? Universal House Rules Spell Immunity: Works also against powers. Thar ya go. Zevox
templer10 06-20-07, 05:30 PM	Well, then, Enoch's getting pretty antsy about getting to level 7, for Spell Immunity: Energy Missile, because he's getting a little sick of it. spell immunity - the spell considered most useless EVER in tabletop and is actually decent here if the other guy doesnt have diepel.
Khaim 06-20-07, 06:15 PM	Quick question- am I correct in thinking that the Ambush package's surprise round limits you to a single standard action?
SauroGrenom 06-20-07, 06:21 PM	Quick question- am I correct in thinking that the Ambush package's surprise round limits you to a single standard action? Correct... That is unless you are mounted. And that's a totally different can of worms.
Khaim 06-20-07, 06:32 PM	Correct... That is unless you are mounted. And that's a totally different can of worms. ...let me guess: mounted characters get full actions just because they're that awesome and so much cooler than all of us not riding around like pretty little ponies?
Hirumajoe 06-20-07, 06:35 PM	What happens to allies (such as Huge Griffons or Vampire worshiping clerics) when the PC goes down in a team fight? Do they continue to operate or are they immediately removed? Edit: Nevermind, found the answer in the Council thread. And they dissappear as soon as the character is out of the fight.
Zevox 06-20-07, 06:48 PM	...let me guess: mounted characters get full actions just because they're that awesome and so much cooler than all of us not riding around like pretty little ponies? No, there was just an argument about whether both the rider and the mount get a single action during a surprise round last time it got brought up. Some thought that if the mount moved, the rider got to do diddly squat, others that the rider got to use his action too. Never got resolved, if memory serves. Zevox
amalcon 06-20-07, 08:32 PM	spell immunity - the spell considered most useless EVER in tabletop and is actually decent here if the other guy doesnt have diepel. I don't know about that...I've seen it put to good use in tabletop. Of course, that situation involved yelling, "Keep fireballing me!"
MindWandererB 06-20-07, 09:28 PM	No, there was just an argument about whether both the rider and the mount get a single action during a surprise round last time it got brought up. Some thought that if the mount moved, the rider got to do diddly squat, others that the rider got to use his action too. Never got resolved, if memory serves. Zevox It was resolved, IIRC. Both rider and mount get to act. What I don't recall is whether the action takes place in the middle of the mount's move (as I argued) or at one end or the other.
McJarvis 06-21-07, 10:19 AM	Powers known: not a problem? I just noticed the requirements to manifest a power from a powerstone as if it were a power known...wow. Since it adds to the psicraft DC based on the power level and not the manifester level, doesn't that make powers known almost unimportant? [other than the 1 full round+standard action manifesting time it takes to manifest from a "your memory is the stone" kind of thing] I guess it's most important to wilders in reference to long duration powers. [hence why I looked at it]. At level 10 you're home free: 13 ranks+2int+4 tool, and you can sell the tool in just a few levels. You're only restricted to using any given power 1/day if you fail, which you can't if you boost your psic enough.
hogarth 06-21-07, 10:46 AM	Re: manifesting by contacting a power stone. I think there's a discussion of this in the "Mission into the Sands" thread. Note that WotC has clarified elsewhere (Complete Psionic maybe?) that this technique expends the power held in the stone. (Cue the cries of "nerf! nerf!".) So (for instance) you can buy a ML 1 stone of Inertial Armor, substituting your own manifester level instead, but it will still use up the stone. It goes without saying that you can interpret the poorly-phrased rules in a myriad of ways, of course.
Vathelokai 06-21-07, 10:49 AM	Re: manifesting by contacting a power stone. I think there's a discussion of this in the "Mission into the Sands" thread. Note that WotC has clarified elsewhere (Complete Psionic maybe?) that this technique expends the power held in the stone. (Cue the cries of "nerf! nerf!".) So (for instance) you can buy a ML 1 stone of Inertial Armor, substituting your own manifester level instead, but it will still use up the stone. It goes without saying that you can interpret the poorly-phrased rules in a myriad of ways, of course. The decision in Sands was to go by the SRD rules; so the powerstone is not expended. I can see the reasons to expend the stone though, if we wish to make a 'house rule' on the matter. Although the powers with long enough durrations to make the technique worth it are few (at least at low levels).
SauroGrenom 06-21-07, 10:51 AM	Powers known: not a problem? I just noticed the requirements to manifest a power from a powerstone as if it were a power known...wow. Since it adds to the psicraft DC based on the power level and not the manifester level, doesn't that make powers known almost unimportant? [other than the 1 full round+standard action manifesting time it takes to manifest from a "your memory is the stone" kind of thing] I guess it's most important to wilders in reference to long duration powers. [hence why I looked at it]. At level 10 you're home free: 13 ranks+2int+4 tool, and you can sell the tool in just a few levels. You're only restricted to using any given power 1/day if you fail, which you can't if you boost your psic enough.Well you cannot get a +4 tool, and there is no tool for psicraft anyway. You could get an item that grants a competence bonus to the skill, and there are a few universal items with that bonus in the SRD (crystal masks and/or third eyes). In combat it's kind of an inefficient way of manifesting powers. Basically there's a move action to draw the stone, a full round action and then a standard action. That's 2 full rounds of actions to manifest one power, and you're a sitting duck the whole time. If you opponent allows you to get that power off, then your opponent deserves to get hit with it. But it is useful for things outside of combat. There aren't many psionic powers with long durations. Only Inertial Armor jumps to mind right now, but I think there are a few others that are hours/level. Elfsight perhaps. Now that I look, there's also Adapt Body, Darkvision, Dispelling Buffer, Escape Detection, Overland Flight, Greater Precognition, Share Pain and Teleport Trigger. Most of those are discipline powers, so a wilder won't get to use them even from a stone unless they use the expanded knowledge feat. There are a few more that are offensive or trap related with a long duration, but are not as useful or practical for this use. Of those listed above, only Inertial Armor, Elfsight, Adapt Body and perhaps Share Pain with an ally could be generally useful in the Arena. Some of the others could be useful, but you need to spend a feat on gaining access to the power... so you know it personally anyway. Anyway the strategy has some utility, but it's not amazing. On quests or campaigns it becomes really useful to get access to general use powers (detect psionics and such) without burning through all your psistones. On my campaign, several of the psions have been using them for those kinds of purposes.
McJarvis 06-21-07, 10:59 AM	Well you cannot get a +4 tool, and there is no tool for psicraft anyway. You could get an item that grants a competence bonus to the skill, and there are a few universal items with that bonus in the SRD (crystal masks and/or third eyes). I often refer to magical + skill items merely as "tools" in my posts around here on the topic. I'd appreciate it if you didn't just assume that I don't know anything about the rules[especially considering my vast number of builds that use skill tools & magical skill tools] In combat it's kind of an inefficient way of manifesting powers. It's not as bad as you're making it out. You can start out with the powerstone out[since we effectively get "free draws" here], then just spend your first round working it. Manifest it round 2 and move out. Perfect for random buffs that you may want to last longer or be less dispel-able[touchsight comes to mind], and if you're a wilder your buff sequence is already going to be shorter anyway. Obviously it's restrictive, but I'm not thinking of manifesting combat powers using it-> just the buffs that don't need to be replentished.. My surprise was more along the lines of "I never thought I'd think of an arena use for this ability"
hogarth 06-21-07, 11:01 AM	The decision in Sands was to go by the SRD rules; so the powerstone is not expended. I can see the reasons to expend the stone though, if we wish to make a 'house rule' on the matter. Although the powers with long enough durrations to make the technique worth it are few (at least at low levels). You're speaking as if the rules in the SRD were perfectly clear. Maybe they are to you, but they aren't to me. For instance, read the following sentence: Upon successfully making contact with another willing psionic character or creature and learning what he can of one power in particular, the character can immediately attempt to manifest that power even if he doesn’t know it (and assuming he has power points left for the day). Taking that line literally, the rules say that you can make contact with either a creature or a power stone, but you can only manifest a newly learned power if you contacted a creature. I'm not saying that's what the rule should be, but that's a valid interpretation going strictly by the letter of the rules.
TelinArtho 06-21-07, 11:45 AM	Sir Valkin is looking for a questlord starting next week (June 27th). Would be a guild quest (and could potentially be delayed if an interruption comes in), and at ECL10. Any takers? Bumpity bumpity.
Khaim 06-21-07, 11:52 AM	First off - attack and defend packages must be linked to the skills post in the rules thread to be used. Can I go ahead and say that this is a rather arbitrary rule?
Vathelokai 06-21-07, 11:53 AM	You're speaking as if the rules in the SRD were perfectly clear. Maybe they are to you, but they aren't to me.I do see your point about vagueness. The reason I speak with 'clarity' is that I've discussed it's use in the campaign (the only place I actually use the technique) and Sauro and I have agreed on how the rules apply for the purposes of the campaign. Like I said, we can put it on the to do list in the council. We could even put a moratorium on the ability until there is at least a courtroom decision on it.
Vathelokai 06-21-07, 11:54 AM	Can I go ahead and say that this is a rather arbitrary rule? I agree. But it is useful for pitlords that don't know how the rules work; having a direct link to the rule and all.
TelinArtho 06-21-07, 12:00 PM	Can I go ahead and say that this is a rather arbitrary rule? I meant to include in that post that I had mentioned in my tactics that it probably was an honest mistake and to let you use it. I have no problem with allowing it - but as Vath mentioned - it is for the pitlord's benefit to include the link.
Salrantol 06-21-07, 12:54 PM	Sir Valkin is looking for a questlord starting next week (June 27th). Would be a guild quest (and could potentially be delayed if an interruption comes in), and at ECL10. Any takers?I would be willing to run such a quest.
Vathelokai 06-21-07, 01:00 PM	Question: Zodiac's familiar has a +10 modifier to a craft skill. When crafting between cycles, can the famiilar aid other (automatic) to give Zodiac a +2 to the craft skill? Can both of them use the same alchemy lab for the +2 circumstance bonus?
TelinArtho 06-21-07, 01:20 PM	I would be willing to run such a quest. Thanks man! Since it is a guild quest - you are required to roll on the EL10 charts - so here's to getting some rolls for Sir Valkin that he can actually handle. On a related note - Sir Valkin is still in his "frozen" cycle. During the quest - week 1 will be frozen, but the other two would be normal. I should be able to buy equipment between week 1 and 2 correct?
TelinArtho 06-21-07, 01:20 PM	Question: Zodiac's familiar has a +10 modifier to a craft skill. When crafting between cycles, can the famiilar aid other (automatic) to give Zodiac a +2 to the craft skill? Can both of them use the same alchemy lab for the +2 circumstance bonus? I believe that Allies are not allowed to use their own skills and feats outside of the arena.
Korone 06-21-07, 01:41 PM	I didn't managed to find any informations about it within the rules, if any.. but is there a way to sell our stuff to either other PCs or NPCs ? There's that wand of cure light wounds that I've brough in error and is pretty much useless for my orc barbarian.
amalcon 06-21-07, 01:44 PM	I didn't managed to find any informations about it within the rules, if any.. but is there a way to sell our stuff to either other PCs or NPCs ? There's that wand of cure light wounds that I've brough in error and is pretty much useless for my orc barbarian. If it's completely useless, that probably means you haven't used it, so you should be able to get a full refund in the training hall. Otherwise, selling things to NPCs gets you half price.
Zevox 06-21-07, 01:49 PM	On a related note - Sir Valkin is still in his "frozen" cycle. During the quest - week 1 will be frozen, but the other two would be normal. I should be able to buy equipment between week 1 and 2 correct? Not so on the first part, Telin. The fact that part of his cycle was frozen doesn't mean the rest of it is. Anything he does now is unfrozen, he just still gets back anything he used during the frozen fights, like normal. You're right about buying equipment, though. If week 1 of the quest is week 3 of your cycle, you can purchase things then. I didn't managed to find any informations about it within the rules, if any.. but is there a way to sell our stuff to either other PCs or NPCs ? There's that wand of cure light wounds that I've brough in error and is pretty much useless for my orc barbarian. You cannot sell to other PCs - that would have horrible abuse potential - but you can sell the item back at half price normally. Between cycles, of course. Zevox
TelinArtho 06-21-07, 02:12 PM	Not so on the first part, Telin. The fact that part of his cycle was frozen doesn't mean the rest of it is. Anything he does now is unfrozen, he just still gets back anything he used during the frozen fights, like normal. You're right about buying equipment, though. If week 1 of the quest is week 3 of your cycle, you can purchase things then. I think you are misunderstanding me. Week 1 of the quest will be the third week of his cycle from when he was frozen. So anything he uses in that week (not that he has much to begin with) and anything that was used in week 1 and 2 (of the cycle) would be restored for the final 2 weeks of the quest. @Korone - place a post in the training hall to get it refunded. Misunderstandings of the rules are generally not held against the players (too much anyway :) ).
Zevox 06-21-07, 02:24 PM	I think you are misunderstanding me. Week 1 of the quest will be the third week of his cycle from when he was frozen. So anything he uses in that week (not that he has much to begin with) and anything that was used in week 1 and 2 (of the cycle) would be restored for the final 2 weeks of the quest. No, thats what I thought you meant. You're just wrong. Anything you use that week is still lost, because you're no longer frozen. You still get items that you used while frozen back after that week though, of course. Zevox
TelinArtho 06-21-07, 03:00 PM	Hmm - I thought differently. Not that it will make a huge deal to Sir Valkin anyway, but I guess it is good to know.
templer10 06-21-07, 03:08 PM	oops
SauroGrenom 06-21-07, 04:16 PM	Thanks man! Since it is a guild quest - you are required to roll on the EL10 charts - so here's to getting some rolls for Sir Valkin that he can actually handle. On a related note - Sir Valkin is still in his "frozen" cycle. During the quest - week 1 will be frozen, but the other two would be normal. I should be able to buy equipment between week 1 and 2 correct?FYI, From what I understand most guild "missions" aren't required to be rolled in the ECL table. Only some missions are required to be rolled randomly (like interceptions). We only require that the EL be on level with the ECL of the character and the ECL of the mission.
TelinArtho 06-21-07, 04:20 PM	FYI, From what I understand most guild "missions" aren't required to be rolled in the ECL table. Only some missions are required to be rolled randomly (like interceptions). We only require that the EL be on level with the ECL of the character and the ECL of the mission. Really? That's two things I learned today... guess I can go to sleep...
MindWandererB 06-21-07, 04:29 PM	Raise Dead Topic: Conclusion: A continuous-use item of Shield is clearly out. Too hard to price. I still think an unlimited-use Brooch of Shielding would be feasible (at 5000 gp), but I seem to be alone in that belief. What about a use-activated item? Example: Bracers of Shielding Three times per day, when these bracers are clashed together, they produce a shield effect on the wearer. CL 3rd, price 3600 gp (SL 1 * CL 3 * 2000 * 3/5). There has to be a way of beating MM other than by having Shield on your class list (or by UMD), or Spell Immunity... even Spell Storing won't work if you can't speak!
NiQil 06-21-07, 04:34 PM	Raise Dead Topic: Conclusion: A continuous-use item of Shield is clearly out. Too hard to price. I still think an unlimited-use Brooch of Shielding would be feasible (at 5000 gp), but I seem to be alone in that belief. What about a use-activated item? Example: Bracers of Shielding Three times per day, when these bracers are clashed together, they produce a shield effect on the wearer. CL 3rd, price 3600 gp (SL 1 * CL 3 * 2000 * 2/3). There has to be a way of beating MM other than by having Shield on your class list (or by UMD), or Spell Immunity... even Spell Storing won't work if you can't speak! Antimagic field in an item maybe?
McJarvis 06-21-07, 04:36 PM	Bracers of Shielding Three times per day, when these bracers are clashed together, they produce a shield effect on the wearer. CL 3rd, price 3600 gp (SL 1 * CL 3 * 2000 * 2/3). Given that Cat already approved a 1-time use brooch of shield[CL1 casting of shield], I see no problem with this item.
NiQil 06-21-07, 04:39 PM	Given that Cat already approved a 1-time use brooch of shield[CL1 casting of shield], I see no problem with this item. Cat approved a lot of things that he probably shouldn't have. At one time, he approved powerstoring arrows. It wasn't until Telin and I pointed out that those are prohibited by the enchantment rules that he reversed himself. Not saying this is one of those times...just that what Cat approved probably should not be a barometer of what is approved now.
TelinArtho 06-21-07, 04:39 PM	Raise Dead Topic: Conclusion: A continuous-use item of Shield is clearly out. Too hard to price. I still think an unlimited-use Brooch of Shielding would be feasible (at 5000 gp), but I seem to be alone in that belief. What about a use-activated item? Example: Bracers of Shielding Three times per day, when these bracers are clashed together, they produce a shield effect on the wearer. CL 3rd, price 3600 gp (SL 1 * CL 3 * 2000 * 2/3). There has to be a way of beating MM other than by having Shield on your class list (or by UMD), or Spell Immunity... even Spell Storing won't work if you can't speak! The price there is correct but the equation is off (SL1 * CL3 * 2000 * 3/5). I have no problem with that item at all.
SauroGrenom 06-21-07, 04:54 PM	Raise Dead Topic: Conclusion: A continuous-use item of Shield is clearly out. Too hard to price. I still think an unlimited-use Brooch of Shielding would be feasible (at 5000 gp), but I seem to be alone in that belief. What about a use-activated item? Example: Bracers of Shielding Three times per day, when these bracers are clashed together, they produce a shield effect on the wearer. CL 3rd, price 3600 gp (SL 1 * CL 3 * 2000 * 2/3). There has to be a way of beating MM other than by having Shield on your class list (or by UMD), or Spell Immunity... even Spell Storing won't work if you can't speak! I think something like this is not imbalanced. If it were up to me, I'd approve it in the blackmarket. Antimagic field in an item maybe? As far as I'm concerned, there can be no magic items that produce AMF. In fact I'd like to see it banned in dorje's, scrolls, powerstones, staffs, psicrowns, wondrous items and any method of casting the spell except casting it with 11 levels in a casting class.
NiQil 06-21-07, 05:00 PM	I think something like this is not imbalanced. If it were up to me, I'd approve it in the blackmarket. As far as I'm concerned, there can be no magic items that produce AMF. In fact I'd like to see it banned in dorje's, scrolls, powerstones, staffs, psicrowns, wondrous items and any method of casting the spell except casting it with 11 levels in a casting class. I would not support such a ban. I have yet to see it proven as unbalanced. In fact we have yet to see it used all that much at all, since we are just now thawing the leagues that can start to use it. It is powerful, but being able to have the spellcasting services cast an AMF on your melee fighter helps even things up for the fighter types.
McJarvis 06-21-07, 05:02 PM	Emphasis mine. Off topic, so I dragged it here-> wouldn't it be funny if the SRD/Players Handbook actually had its own emphasis as people seem to always imply? ;)
templer10 06-21-07, 05:04 PM	question- and i cant beleave it matters - but i want to make sure - when a wilder is ennervated does he loses the regular power cost + the enervation cost right?
NiQil 06-21-07, 05:05 PM	question- and i cant beleave it matters - but i want to make sure - when a wilder is ennervated does he loses the regular power cost + the enervation cost right? Yes, he loses a number of pp equal to her wilder level and is dazed until the end of her next turn. But the power being manifested is not lost.
TelinArtho 06-21-07, 05:07 PM	question- and i cant beleave it matters - but i want to make sure - when a wilder is ennervated does he loses the regular power cost + the enervation cost right? When a wilder is enervated, the power has already gone off. So he spends x PPs to manifest the power successfully and loses y PPs because he is enervated (equal to his wilder level).
SauroGrenom 06-21-07, 05:39 PM	I would not support such a ban. I have yet to see it proven as unbalanced. In fact we have yet to see it used all that much at all, since we are just now thawing the leagues that can start to use it. It is powerful, but being able to have the spellcasting services cast an AMF on your melee fighter helps even things up for the fighter types. AMF is an emanation centered on the caster. It's not a viable spell for spell casting services. However 1 level dip in a spell casting class, and you "could" buy scrolls with the spell. Or you could buy a ring of spell storing. It think that's terribly unbalanced and should be banned from being cast by any items. AMF is perhaps the most powerful spell in the game. It's spell immunity to everything, and complete inactivation of all magical items. Only Disjunction can defeat it with a slim chance at that. The only thing that "balances" AMF is the fact that you basically surrender the class features of 11 class levels in a casting class whenever you use it. That helps to ensure it doesn't fall into the "wrong" hands. Even so, it's terribly powerful when combined with arcane archer or flying familiars and share spell.
NiQil 06-21-07, 06:13 PM	Can you take Improved Critical (Touch Attack) or Improved Critical (Ranged Touch Attack)? I know you can do it for Unarmed Strike and such, but have never looked into it for touch/ranged touch attacks before.
Usurpator 06-21-07, 06:20 PM	Can you take Improved Critical (Touch Attack) or Improved Critical (Ranged Touch Attack)? I know you can do it for Unarmed Strike and such, but have never looked into it for touch/ranged touch attacks before. No, touch attack isn't a weapon. You can take Improved Critical (scorching ray) or something like that. Touch attack is just a method of delivery, just like a regular melee attack.
Khaim 06-21-07, 06:24 PM	No, touch attack isn't a weapon. You can take Improved Critical (scorching ray) or something like that. Touch attack is just a method of delivery, just like a regular melee attack. Actually, I think Improved Critical (ray) is legal, based on Weapon Focus (ray) being legal. But no, "touch attack" isn't valid.
MindWandererB 06-21-07, 06:53 PM	No, touch attack isn't a weapon. You can take Improved Critical (scorching ray) or something like that. Touch attack is just a method of delivery, just like a regular melee attack. Complete Arcane says it is, as have a few other sources. Nothing in RAW, though.
amalcon 06-21-07, 07:00 PM	Weapon Focus (Ray) is certainly a legal feat, as one of the psionic feats (power specialization) requires it. I don't think it would be unreasonable to assume that this extends to Improved Critical.
McJarvis 06-21-07, 08:16 PM	I believe the distinction is that a Ray is a weapon of sorts, and different than just the broad term "ranged touch attacks". [You can see this implication in the terminology used on rays: they are an effect, after all] This is, of course, completely off-the-books interpretation by me.
Hirumajoe 06-21-07, 08:42 PM	I believe the distinction is that a Ray is a weapon of sorts, and different than just the broad term "ranged touch attacks". [You can see this implication in the terminology used on rays: they are an effect, after all] This is, of course, completely off-the-books interpretation by me. The big difference between real weapons and these particular ranged weapons is that they don't provoke AoOs. :D
TelinArtho 06-22-07, 01:06 PM	Okay - why can't I find a pointer for the "free and weightless outfit" that everyone starts with...?
Macbrea 06-22-07, 01:11 PM	Ok, the free part comes from Assume a character owns at least one outfit of normal clothes. Pick any one of the following clothing outfits: artisan’s outfit, entertainer’s outfit, explorer’s outfit, monk’s outfit, peasant’s outfit, scholar’s outfit, or traveler’s outfit. Give me a second to find the weightless part.
TelinArtho 06-22-07, 01:12 PM	I found this in the court decisions post: Q: Does the free and weightless outfit that all gladiators receive count against your mount's encumbrance when mounted? A: By the RAW, there is no such thing as a weightless outfit. Since all gladiators are provided with one, this clothing is weightless for all purposes, which include encumbrance as it relates to mounts. But not the initial statement of it... I wonder if it got zapped by accident. Anyway - @stimpydoda - the outfit is weightless. Feel free to get an elder (other than mine) confirmation if you want it.
Macbrea 06-22-07, 01:19 PM	Page 131, PHB, Clothing reads: Different Characters may want different outfits for various occasions. A beginning character is assumed to have an artisans's, entertainer's explorer's, monk's, peasant's, scholar's or traveler's outfit. This first outfit is free and does not count against the weight a character can carry. ------------------------------------- So, it's in the favor text missing from the SRD to say it doesn't count against the players carry capacity.
TelinArtho 06-22-07, 01:21 PM	Thank you muchly.
stimpydoda 06-22-07, 01:27 PM	Alrighty, thanks! Good stuff to know.
TelinArtho 06-22-07, 01:31 PM	I trust everyone will be reading the announcement from WotC Mel - down time next wednesday. Shouldn't affect pairings, but I wouldn't suggest holding your fights to the last minute.
stimpydoda 06-22-07, 02:37 PM	I've seen talk of a change with ally's and handle animal, but I can't find it. Will someone kindly direct me to it? Thanks.
Zevox 06-22-07, 02:42 PM	I've seen talk of a change with ally's and handle animal, but I can't find it. Will someone kindly direct me to it? Thanks. Its in the ally rules in the Rules thread now. Basically, handle animal allies use a new formula now, and theres new minimum levels you need to be to have certain purchased or handle animal allies. Not all of them make sense, but most of them do, and most are pretty similar to the minimum level you could get allies before based simply on our CA rules. Zevox
McJarvis 06-22-07, 02:51 PM	So, it's in the favor text missing from the SRD to say it doesn't count against the players carry capacity. Indeed: the house rule(clarification?) is just extending that to mounts as well.
Macbrea 06-22-07, 02:55 PM	It's a paperwork clarification. We decided that in CoCo.. the encumberance free suit had to be weightless. :P
TheMagister 06-22-07, 03:10 PM	Regarding the new Handle Animal/Purchased allies rules change: Hood's pegasus, Hope, is both Elite Array and Advanced 2 additional HD. So: Hood would have to be level 7 to get a normal peg. Hope is Elite, which is a +2... wait. This is confusing: Additionally, you can apply the Elite Ability Array to those creatures, which doubles their marketprice (and increases the CR and minimal ECL by 1). vs. An Elite version of a purchased or Handle Animal ally increases the Minimal ECL Requirement by +2. and Pegasus (Egg 2000 gp, Adult 3000 gp)[Elite: +2000 gp] vs. Additionally, you can apply the Elite Ability Array to those creatures, which doubles their marketprice (and increases the CR and minimal ECL by 1). :confused:
TelinArtho 06-22-07, 03:14 PM	Well the simple answer is that Elite array should only be a +1 to the ECL. If you see that in error - post it in the Massive Updates to get it fixed. As to the other issue - I don't know which is right - post that in the Massive updates as well.
Zevox 06-22-07, 03:14 PM	Looks like you ought to post that in the "massive updates" thread TM. The correct rules would be that the CR and minimum ECL of the ally is +1 for the elite array (that was the most recent suggestion from the discussions) and that the elite array costs +2k gp (not sure how that doubled cost thing got in there). Zevox
TheMagister 06-22-07, 03:20 PM	Thanks fellas. And where does it spell out how many +x HD = +x CR? I didn't see that spelled out anywhere in the blackmarket or Allies threads...
Zevox 06-22-07, 03:21 PM	Thanks fellas. And where does it spell out how many +x HD = +x CR? I didn't see that spelled out anywhere in the blackmarket or Allies threads... You're right, it isn't. Thats because advancing HD is no longer allowed for allies that can't do so normally (i.e. things other than class or leadership allies). Zevox
TheMagister 06-22-07, 03:22 PM	A pegasus can advance in HD (by the MM, anyways). So she's still legal? Edit: or am I misunderstanding your intent to say that unless they're classed allies, they can't advance in HD at all?
Zevox 06-22-07, 03:23 PM	A pegasus can advance in HD (by the MM, anyways). So she's still legal? No. Like I said, advancing HD is no longer allowed for allies that don't do so normally (those being class allies that gain HD as you gain levels and leadership allies for obvious reasons). Zevox
TelinArtho 06-22-07, 03:25 PM	Non-class allies are not allowed to advance in HD anymore.
McJarvis 06-22-07, 03:27 PM	Non-class allies are not allowed to advance in HD anymore. Other than feat-acquired allies(like leadership cohorts & psicrystals), right?
TelinArtho 06-22-07, 03:32 PM	Okay... Let me strike my comment and let Zevox speak isntead :P
Zevox 06-22-07, 03:33 PM	Other than feat-acquired allies(like leadership cohorts & psicrystals), right? Right. Zevox
TheMagister 06-22-07, 03:42 PM	{sighing chuckle} Wait a minute. I thought we decided to treat psicrystals just like familiars? TM
Macbrea 06-22-07, 03:47 PM	So, silly question. Is anyone besides Mitza and Myself going to make it to Gencon, Indy this year?
TelinArtho 06-22-07, 03:49 PM	That is a silly question... I have three kids, a wife, only one car and no vacation time... Of course I'm going! I wish I was going...
Macbrea 06-22-07, 04:00 PM	To quote a movie: SELL THE HOUSE SELL THE CAR SELL THE KIDS :P
TheMagister 06-22-07, 04:01 PM	{sighing chuckle} Wait a minute. I thought we decided to treat psicrystals just like familiars? TM I'm serious! If we're not, and psicrystals still get feats, then I've got a neat trick I wanna use w/Bob.
MindWandererB 06-22-07, 04:02 PM	I'm serious! If we're not, and psicrystals still get feats, then I've got a neat trick I wanna use w/Bob. No, McJarvis was in error. No more feats for psicrystals.
TheMagister 06-22-07, 04:10 PM	Drat. I was thinking about that feat that gives a creature DR 3/- vs. psionic powers that deal damage + shield other. Wouldn't that be neat?
McJarvis 06-22-07, 04:12 PM	{sighing chuckle} Wait a minute. I thought we decided to treat psicrystals just like familiars? TM We do-> but that doesn't change the fact that they are not a class ally. I'm not really sure what I was incorrect on...?
TelinArtho 06-22-07, 04:16 PM	Drat. I was thinking about that feat that gives a creature DR 3/- vs. psionic powers that deal damage + shield other. Wouldn't that be neat? However, Shield other (and share pain for that matter) are not "psionic attacks": MENTAL RESISTANCE [GENERAL] Your mind is armored against mental intrusion. Prerequisite: Base Will save bonus +2. Benefit: Against psionic attacks that do not employ an energy type to deal damage you gain damage reduction 3/–. In addition, when you are hit with ability damage (but not ability drain or ability burn damage) from a psionic attack, you take 3 points less than you would normally take. The benefit of this feat applies only to psionic powers and psi-like abilities. This is an exception to the psionics–magic transparency rule. Special: You cannot take or use this feat if you have the ability to use powers (if you have a power point reserve or psi-like abilities).
MindWandererB 06-22-07, 04:26 PM	We do-> but that doesn't change the fact that they are not a class ally. I'm not really sure what I was incorrect on...? TM was talking about HD advancement, which psicrystals don't do.
TheMagister 06-22-07, 04:29 PM	Why would you say that Share Pain wouldn't work (and Share Pain is what I meant to use)? First: "This power creates a psychometabolic connection between you and a willing subject..." Sounds psionic to me... Further: I'm going to extrapolate this sentence: "You take half damage from all attacks that deal hit point damage to you, and the subject takes the remainder." to: "You take half damage from all attacks that deal hit point damage to you, and the subject takes the other half of the damage from all attacks that deal hit point damage to you via the psychometabolic connection created by Share Pain." So any attack against you that deals hit point damage is converted into psychometabolic hit point damage by Share Pain, and that psychometabolic hit point damage is then taken by a willing subject. And then: "Against psionic attacks that do not employ an energy type to deal damage you gain damage reduction 3/–." It doesn't say "psionic attacks that target only you". It doesn't matter where the damage comes from, only that it doesn't employ an energy type and that it results from a "psionic attack". Is there a flaw in my reasoning?
McJarvis 06-22-07, 04:30 PM	TM was talking about HD advancement, which psicrystals don't do. Well, they still get more HD in the technical sense, is all I was thinking. [the same way Familiars advance in HD for the purposes of CR/Intimidate currently]
MindWandererB 06-22-07, 04:36 PM	I'm going to extrapolate this sentence: "You take half damage from all attacks that deal hit point damage to you, and the subject takes the remainder." to: "You take half damage from all attacks that deal hit point damage to you, and the subject takes the other half of the damage from all attacks that deal hit point damage to you via the psychometabolic connection created by Share Pain."This is the kicker, IMO. I don't think this is a reasonable extrapolation. Share Pain isn't dealing the damage, not directly. It's distributing the damage, is all. It's a subtle but important (and balance-defending) difference. If this worked, and you really wanted to abuse it, consider this: - Psion manifests Share Pain, sharing half the damage he takes with his psicrystal. - Psion manifests Share Pain again, sharing half the damage the psicrystal takes with himself. - Mental Resistance reduces the damage dealt to the manifester by 3 every time this is activated. - All damage from all sources is reduced to zero. No. Just no.
TelinArtho 06-22-07, 04:39 PM	Why would you say that Share Pain wouldn't work (and Share Pain is what I meant to use)? First: "This power creates a psychometabolic connection between you and a willing subject..." Sounds psionic to me... Further: I'm going to extrapolate this sentence: "You take half damage from all attacks that deal hit point damage to you, and the subject takes the remainder." to: "You take half damage from all attacks that deal hit point damage to you, and the subject takes the other half of the damage from all attacks that deal hit point damage to you via the psychometabolic connection created by Share Pain." So any attack against you that deals hit point damage is converted into psychometabolic hit point damage by Share Pain, and that psychometabolic hit point damage is then taken by a willing subject. And then: "Against psionic attacks that do not employ an energy type to deal damage you gain damage reduction 3/–." It doesn't say "psionic attacks that target only you". It doesn't matter where the damage comes from, only that it doesn't employ an energy type and that it results from a "psionic attack". Is there a flaw in my reasoning? Not all hit point damage sources are attacks. You can take damage from natural effects (say the weather or entering a pool of lava) - but that would not be an attack. If there were such a thing as entering a harmful pool of psionic energy - that would not be an attack. So while the Share Pain is causing damage to you, it would not be an attack.
TheMagister 06-22-07, 04:40 PM	This is the kicker, IMO. I don't think this is a reasonable extrapolation. Share Pain isn't dealing the damage, not directly. It's distributing the damage, is all. It's a subtle but important (and balance-defending) difference. If this worked, and you really wanted to abuse it, consider this: - Psion manifests Share Pain, sharing half the damage he takes with his psicrystal. - Psion manifests Share Pain again, sharing half the damage the psicrystal takes with himself. - Mental Resistance reduces the damage dealt to the manifester by 3 every time this is activated. - All damage from all sources is reduced to zero. No. Just no. Whoa. {blinks} Yeah, that's a killer loop. I surrender.
TheMagister 06-22-07, 04:49 PM	Monsieur Hood has been updated to reflect the new ally rules. I refunded myself the 1500 gp I spent to advance her 2 HD. Anyone who wants to do a full audit is welcome to the hassle.
Zevox 06-22-07, 05:00 PM	Query: For animal allies who have had their available tricks filled out, how would one get them new tricks in place of the old? Could you simply train the new trick over the old, or would it cost credits? I'm asking because when Asran trained his Furies, I made the mistake of giving them the "seek" trick, thinking it was part of the combat riding package, when in fact it wasn't. Initially I just gave them armor with no ACP to compensate, but now I'm considering getting him a leadership follower or two that might want to ride one, which requires them to get that trick changed to come. If I can do it without credits, I definitely will, but if its going to cost credits its probably not worth it. Zevox
MindWandererB 06-22-07, 05:05 PM	Query: For animal allies who have had their available tricks filled out, how would one get them new tricks in place of the old? Could you simply train the new trick over the old, or would it cost credits? I'm asking because when Asran trained his Furies, I made the mistake of giving them the "seek" trick, thinking it was part of the combat riding package, when in fact it wasn't. Initially I just gave them armor with no ACP to compensate, but now I'm considering getting him a leadership follower or two that might want to ride one, which requires them to get that trick changed to come. If I can do it without credits, I definitely will, but if its going to cost credits its probably not worth it. ZevoxI don't know about in general, but this might help: Combat Riding (DC 20): An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel. Training an animal for combat riding takes six weeks. You may also “upgrade” an animal trained for riding to one trained for combat riding by spending three weeks and making a successful DC 20 Handle Animal check. The new general purpose and tricks completely replace the animal’s previous purpose and any tricks it once knew. Warhorses and riding dogs are already trained to bear riders into combat, and they don’t require any additional training for this purpose.
Zevox 06-22-07, 05:17 PM	Hm, thats definitely interesting. So, would that mean he could simply teach them the new trick to replace the old, or would he need to re-train the whole package for that to happen? The latter would take quite a long time... though I suppose until another character or two hit ECL 11 or he gets a Guild assignment Asran has nothing better to do. Edit: Although since hes in mid-cycle, he couldn't do it anyway. Drat. Zevox
SauroGrenom 06-22-07, 05:37 PM	The battles thread hit a thousand again.
TelinArtho 06-22-07, 05:41 PM	@Zevox - I sent a PM to Guildlords about an error I made. Let me know ASAP the result so that I know what to do... thanks
TelinArtho 06-22-07, 05:43 PM	The battles thread hit a thousand again. I noticed that as well. What is more telling is the fact that we managed to hit 1000 posts in about 18 months. Of course, the days of 1 post per battle are long over (with some taking 4 or 5) - but I bet there's probably 600+ fights in there...
MindWandererB 06-22-07, 05:46 PM	Of course, this thread is at 3000... I should probably make some new ones.
MindWandererB 06-22-07, 05:50 PM	And, done. To the Tavern X!