Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Caterane 01-27-07, 08:27 AM	The Core Coliseum Tavern - The 8th Incarnation - http://www.caterane.de/CoCo/Struktur/Gladius-Tavern8.jpg This is the Tavern of the Core Coliseum. Here, all Characters of Gladius meet to chat, drink, and sometimes even brawl. You can ask questions, talk to others, or write whatever you want as long as it does not violate the Code of Conduct (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=community/coc). You can't really go wrong here. Newcomers who want to make a character should use the Quickstart Guide or read the Rules of Gladius. If you have a question, the Tavern is definately the right place to go. Links to the old Taverns: Core Coliseum Tavern I (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=192697) Core Coliseum Tavern II (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=348562) Core Coliseum Tavern III (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=444341) Core Coliseum Tavern IV (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=525782) Core Coliseum Tavern V (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=571121) Core Coliseum Tavern VI (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=636662) Core Coliseum Tavern VII (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=724116)
Caterane 01-27-07, 08:40 AM	It's been time for a new tavern and I'd like to use this to make two announcements. I have opened a 4th Gallery (the other 3 are full) which waits to be filled with pictures from YOU! Especially our regulars should be in there. Niqil, Erithmu, ...2 free credits? :) In order to not have this new gallery appear too empty, I've put up a new picture of me. The quality is not the best though; I bought that webcam like 10 years ago. :( Secondly, we talked about it for a very long time but after more than 2 and a half years, the Iron Man Tournament is close. Unless something happens, the Iron Man Tournament will begin on MARCH 14. You can participate if you have an ECL 9 or ECL 10 character, or as a team of ECL 8's or ECL 7's (with the usual surprise round if you're handicapped). We will discuss everything in detail soon. There will also be an application thread where you submit your character for the tournament. The winner gains a custom avatar. The first three places get [Iron Man] Reputation Tags.
Abyssal Stalker 01-27-07, 08:47 AM	Cat is a member of Rammstein... :D
SauroGrenom 01-27-07, 10:26 AM	I've seen that picture before! You've got a myspace profile. It's all in german, so I've no clue what most of it says.
Erithmu 01-27-07, 10:52 AM	You really don't .... Remember Raiders of the Lost Ark? yea....
UserNamer 01-27-07, 11:52 AM	Can you pay the spellcasting service to cast higher spells than your ECL?
Zevox 01-27-07, 12:01 PM	Can you pay the spellcasting service to cast higher spells than your ECL? You can get spells from spellcasting services with a CL higher than your ECL only by paying 1 credit per ECL the spell is above your CL at the Black Market. Example: a level 3 wishes to pay for a casting of Deeper Darkness, they need to pay 2 credits because it is a CL 5 spell, 2 caster levels above their ECL, in addition to the normal gp cost. Zevox
Vathelokai 01-27-07, 12:08 PM	Feel like bragging... Zodiac has leveled up (accounting error made me think he hadn't) and now he has hold person at a DC 22. Fighters beware! One more level to red wizard.
TelinArtho 01-27-07, 12:50 PM	Meh - I'll just activate Gulgar...
UserNamer 01-27-07, 12:52 PM	You can get spells from spellcasting services with a CL higher than your ECL only by paying 1 credit per ECL the spell is above your CL at the Black Market. Example: a level 3 wishes to pay for a casting of Deeper Darkness, they need to pay 2 credits because it is a CL 5 spell, 2 caster levels above their ECL, in addition to the normal gp cost. Zevox Would it be possible to use Gather Information for that? Example: ECL3 can pay 60gp for Darkness credit-free. Deeper Darkness would cost 150gp. 150 - 60 - 90gp. With a Gather Information of at least 6 [17*6 = 102gp] it would be possible to do this without credits. Another question: Is it possible to use Diplomacy vs. Mercenaries?
Vathelokai 01-27-07, 01:09 PM	Meh - I'll just activate Gulgar... Skimmed the characts thread and the grave yard and couldn't find Gulgar... where's s/he at?
SauroGrenom 01-27-07, 09:00 PM	Just to make sure, I want to verify that touchsight negates the concealment on invisibility.
TheMagister 01-27-07, 09:49 PM	Verified.
MindWandererB 01-27-07, 09:54 PM	Just to make sure, I want to verify that touchsight negates the concealment on invisibility. Yep, that's its primary function.
c00lz3 01-28-07, 02:04 AM	I have a few qestions to ask. Previuosly I asking about the halfling racial ability to thrown weapons applying to Tk Thrust (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/telekineticThrust.htm). The power states,"You must succeed on ranged attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown)" and "applying your Intelligence modifier to the attack roll instead of your Dexterity modifier" MWB has alrady commented with only bab + int applying to Tk Thrust, no racial, size, echantment, ect. I would love more imput and MWB can you elaborate on your response? Also In the rules of galdius you cannot have a NPC prebuff dissolving weapon because it has a target of personal. This is false as the power has range: personal and target: one held weapon. There is no other rules here about it except you can't use it on ammunition weapons
MindWandererB 01-28-07, 02:44 AM	First item: You must succeed on attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target with the items, using your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer). Note that it does not say "instead of," or anything to that effect. it lists your BAB and Int or Cha as the only attack roll modifiers you get. So that's all you get. If it said "using your Intelligence modifier in place of your Dexterity or Strength modifier," then okay. But the 2-item lists looks like it's meant to be exhaustive. Dissolving Weapon is indeed Personal (in range). It affects only weapons carried and used by the manifester ("...your weapon is charged with acid until you make a successful attack," as opposed to "it is used to make a successful attack," or "its wielder makes a successful attack"). It cannot be used to improve the weapon of another character.
c00lz3 01-28-07, 03:09 PM	First item: Note that it does not say "instead of," or anything to that effect. it lists your BAB and Int or Cha as the only attack roll modifiers you get. So that's all you get. If it said "using your Intelligence modifier in place of your Dexterity or Strength modifier," then okay. But the 2-item lists looks like it's meant to be exhaustive. Dissolving Weapon is indeed Personal (in range). It affects only weapons carried and used by the manifester ("...your weapon is charged with acid until you make a successful attack," as opposed to "it is used to make a successful attack," or "its wielder makes a successful attack"). It cannot be used to improve the weapon of another character. I understand now, the text for Tk thrust and the Tk thrust version of telekenesis are slightly different. I was quoting the psionic version and it seems we are both right. psionic: "applying your Intelligence modifier to the attack roll instead of your Dexterity modifier" magic: "using your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer)" I agree with you on dissolving weapon, but as long as you are manifesting it could you no do so with many weapons, storing them for later?
MitzaVolchenko 01-28-07, 04:27 PM	I understand now, the text for Tk thrust and the Tk thrust version of telekenesis are slightly different. I was quoting the psionic version and it seems we are both right. psionic: "applying your Intelligence modifier to the attack roll instead of your Dexterity modifier" magic: "using your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer)" I agree with you on dissolving weapon, but as long as you are manifesting it could you no do so with many weapons, storing them for later? This relates to a question I posed a couple of weeks ago...target=one held weapon. My opinion is that as soon as it is sheathed, dropped, handed to someone else, etc. the dissolving weapon goes away.
MindWandererB 01-28-07, 06:27 PM	Yeah... I hate the phrasing of this power. I consider it analagous to "target: one touched creature." In that case, the spell/power does not end if you cease touching the creature. Similarly, DW requires that you be holding the weapon only at the time of manifestation.
MitzaVolchenko 01-28-07, 11:04 PM	Yeah... I hate the phrasing of this power. I consider it analagous to "target: one touched creature." In that case, the spell/power does not end if you cease touching the creature. Similarly, DW requires that you be holding the weapon only at the time of manifestation. So why not prebuff five or six weapons with it?
SauroGrenom 01-28-07, 11:11 PM	So why not prebuff five or six weapons with it? It takes alot of resources to do that. Not many have the spare pp to accomplish it on multiple weapons. Then in battle you'd need to switch back and forth. Most characters have a single weapon that they've invested lots of cash into. Having multiples makes you have 5 or 6 crappy weapons instead of 1 good one. Besides 1 dissolving weapon is usually enough to get most opponents assuming you can hit. In any case, this kind of strategy could be worked by specialized builds. But it makes you a 1 trick pony. That's a tough situation to be in if the trick does't work agains a particular foe. It also makes it easy to defeat you, defeat 1 trick and your build is toast.
Sindorin 01-29-07, 02:41 AM	Secondly, we talked about it for a very long time but after more than 2 and a half years, the Iron Man Tournament is close. Unless something happens, the Iron Man Tournament will begin on MARCH 14. You can participate if you have an ECL 9 or ECL 10 character, or as a team of ECL 8's or ECL 7's (with the usual surprise round if you're handicapped). We will discuss everything in detail soon. There will also be an application thread where you submit your character for the tournament. The winner gains a custom avatar. The first three places get [Iron Man] Reputation Tags. [/COLOR] Excellent... The dark lady of the Habari shall return and have (edit)bad tactics *to ride* once again...
Abyssal Stalker 01-29-07, 03:11 AM	Excellent... The dark lady of the Habari shall return and have (edit)bad tactics *to ride* once again... The Company has been missing her...
TelinArtho 01-29-07, 11:06 AM	Secondly, we talked about it for a very long time but after more than 2 and a half years, the Iron Man Tournament is close. Unless something happens, the Iron Man Tournament will begin on MARCH 14. You can participate if you have an ECL 9 or ECL 10 character, or as a team of ECL 8's or ECL 7's (with the usual surprise round if you're handicapped). We will discuss everything in detail soon. There will also be an application thread where you submit your character for the tournament. The winner gains a custom avatar. The first three places get [Iron Man] Reputation Tags. I'm flattered that you plan on starting this on my birthday. It is a pity, but I'm truly not sure if I'll be able to participate - as that is the scheduled date for my 3rd child to be born (scheduled c-section). If worse comes to worse, maybe I'll just write up some decent tactics beforehand for general situations... @Vath - Gulgar is here: Gulgar the Great
Etiquette_Gnome 01-30-07, 12:15 AM	Hmm, now there's a question. Can do ECL 4 characters get one free MQ, and should I have my elven psion try to get an elemental or two with Diplomacy? Edit: A related question, can you advance elemental allies after getting them to the next stage (small to medium), since the statistics are pretty clean cut? Heck, would advancing a small to a medium even cost any credits since I would be using SRD statistics?
TheMagister 01-30-07, 01:31 AM	Funny. I was wondering what you could do with some small fire elementals and Control Flame... TM
Hirumajoe 01-30-07, 07:55 AM	Can you sunder gauntlets, spiked gauntlets and/or spikes on armor? I know you can't sunder armor, however, I note that Gauntlets and Spiked Gauntlets are listed under the Weapons section, not the armor section. Admittedly, medium and heavy armors (Except breastplate) come with gauntlets. However, those gauntlets are not an integral part of the armor, and can be removed without penalty to AC, or replaced with magical glove/gauntlets. I read it in the same way as arrows come with a quiver and that you can draw a quiver as a free action since its obviously ammo. :) The gauntlets themselves don't provide AC nor function like armor in any way, other than the fact that they're worn. However you can sunder worn objects, just not worn armor. Which I'm guessing is to prevent the much easier to hit of 10 + size + dex and eliminate high ACs from armor. Anyways, curious on people's interpretation of the above thoughts.
TelinArtho 01-30-07, 08:41 AM	The only condition I see with spiked gauntlets (and only spiked gauntlets) is that they cannot be disarmed. That said, sundering them would be an opposed check of attack rolls - since it is a light weapon - not a held item. So instead of 10+ size+dex, it would be an opposed attack roll. I'm not convinced it can be done regardless though.
TelinArtho 01-30-07, 08:45 AM	Hmm, now there's a question. Can do ECL 4 characters get one free MQ, and should I have my elven psion try to get an elemental or two with Diplomacy? Edit: A related question, can you advance elemental allies after getting them to the next stage (small to medium), since the statistics are pretty clean cut? Heck, would advancing a small to a medium even cost any credits since I would be using SRD statistics? Although this isn't an official answer - since I'm not sure this has come up before, here's my take on it: Advancing allies of any sort (other than class feature ones) requires a new miniquest/new purchase for the full cost of the new creature. So - someone who pays 150gp for a heavy warhorse and later wants to "roleplay" that his horse is well-trained, etc - to give him the elite array would cost the full amount to buy the heavy warhorse with the elite array. By the same token, if you already have a small air elemental and at ECL7 want to "upgrade" him to a medium - you will have to go on a quest to improve him and still incurs the cost of a regular full air elemental. Since your CoD is a limited amount, this is probably something you'll need to consider doing - maintaining a group of elementals is difficult due to their solitary nature... However, upgrading a small elemental to a medium elemental would not cost credits.
Abyssal Stalker 01-30-07, 08:46 AM	I've at least used this in my tactics with Manzarf. It was a fight vs Evaine Dreamseeker, who had dissolving weapon prebuffed all around her multiple weapons, including a pair of spiked gauntlets. I can't quite remember the result, but I think that it never came to the point of actually sundering them. EDIT: Actually, Manzarf sundered Evaine's gauntlets in the fight.Read yourself (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9026387#post9026387).
Abyssal Stalker 01-30-07, 09:56 AM	How is the CL of a multi-class character determined? Do all arcane classes add to your CL or is it determined by the class you use to cast the spell? I know that arcane classes don't stack with divine classes. How about ML?
Sjiggie 01-30-07, 10:09 AM	I believe you keep track of your CL/ML for all your classes indepently. Let say you have a wizard5/sorcerer3 the cl for the wizard spells is 5 and for the sorcerer 3. When you take a look at the new prestige class Ultimate Magus (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a&page=3) It advances the CL of both classes so there different and not added together
Zevox 01-30-07, 10:22 AM	Advancing allies of any sort (other than class feature ones) requires a new miniquest/new purchase for the full cost of the new creature. Actually, this is incorrect. In the case of purchased allies, you could do this in order to not pay credits, but it is not required. All you need do is pay the credit cost for advancing an ally (and gold cost, if its a purchased or diplomacy one). Take a look at my Archdevil Asran, for instance, who advanced one of his Furies (Dire Bats) in this manner; or if you can dig her up lonewolf's Karen, who advanced a purchased Pegasus this way. Now, in this particular case (elementals), I suspect you couldn't do it that way though. The "advancement" lines for each elemental size pretty clearly don't include advancing to the next size. While odd, I suspect this would mean each size would here be treated as a separate creature, and require separate quests to obtain. Zevox
hogarth 01-30-07, 01:24 PM	Are ECL 3 characters allowed to use Gather Information to obtain black market (custom) items? It looks like they are, but I wasn't sure if that was one of the things forbidden from the new rules (like the "no miniquests for ECL 3" rule).
TelinArtho 01-30-07, 02:03 PM	Is there anyone who would like to run an out-of-cycle miniquest for Zax, my creepy-crawler druid? He's looking to pick up the vermin he'll need for the next few levels: Large Centipede (CR1) Large Spider (CR2) Huge Centipede (CR2) It would be a EL4 miniquest.
Abyssal Stalker 01-30-07, 02:07 PM	I can take it. I already know him.
TelinArtho 01-30-07, 02:09 PM	I meant to specify before - it would be for the next week (starting 2/7) not this week. If that's fine - excellent - I look forward to it.
Abyssal Stalker 01-30-07, 02:15 PM	This week or the next - both are fine. If you have some special ideas, PM me with them couple days beforehand.
MindWandererB 01-30-07, 04:18 PM	There's a interesting new Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070130a) covering animal behavior. It suggests ways of doing things different from what we've been doing, and we've always used RotG as a rules resource before. We may want to reconsider some things, such as what a horse does when its rider falls unconscious.
Etiquette_Gnome 01-30-07, 05:59 PM	Yet another MQ question. Since I'm allowed one free one per level (past ECL 3), what kind of quest goals can I choose from? I know I can obtain a Diplomacy ally, but I'm interested in knowing my other options.
SauroGrenom 01-30-07, 06:29 PM	MWB, That was a nasty back stab. Totally unprovoked. Totally uncalled for. WTF? Why'd you do it?
MindWandererB 01-30-07, 07:19 PM	I'm actually very surprised that no one else did the same thing. The artifact from the World Event is a powerful advantage, and it's one that's in all the guilds' best interests to keep out of the hands of their rivals. PSI is technically TLT's biggest rival--we have an attitude of 0000 toward you, despite the fact that we've aggressed against you only once, for a pittance of attitude points--so letting you get your hands on it is a really bad idea for us. On top of that, TLT is interested in preserving the balance of power. The World Event has been proven to be very difficult, so only those who are already powerful have a chance at it. Furthermore, the artifact can be stolen by an equally difficult quest. As the guild game continues, the more powerful guild(s) will continue to expand the gap between themselves and their weaker rivals, and the artifacts will be a part of that--whoever can successfully complete the mission, will, and will be sitting on a horde of artifacts. In retrospect, it would have been better for TLT to never attempted to grab the thing in the first place, and focused our efforts on preventing it from ever entering Gladius in the first place. You also make it sound personal--it wasn't. First of all, I ran it by my guild, and no one seemed to think it was a good idea to let you succeed (aside from a discussion about the possibility of stealing it afterward). Second of all, we would have done the same to anyone who looked like they were going to succeed, with the exception of TAO, whom we like. And for the record... technically, a backstab is when someone pretends to be your friend, then takes advantage of you. We have only an uneasy truce between our two guilds. And take a look at EHTC--they hate us worse than you do, and we intercepted them twice, but they haven't said anything nasty about it, nor do I expect them to do anything by way of retaliation (aside from the intercept that Asran already did). So... chill, please. This was not an act of aggression, and if you interpret it as such, it would could lead to badness for everyone. If you really feel that strongly about it, do it in character, and we'll go through what WAR and CEF just did, although hopefully before the blood is shed that freely.
McJarvis 01-30-07, 08:11 PM	Note that LOY was originally taken out of the artifact running through something similar. It's just a game...
SauroGrenom 01-30-07, 08:21 PM	You're wrong on so many levels... I thought we turned over a new leaf... But I guess not. The artifact is a minor game element. For PSI all it would mean is a few hundred gp/week extra. We already make more gold than we can spend. More of a surplus is pointless, it's not any advantage in a meaningful sense. The artifact would mean more to a guild that doesn't have Education as a trait. It would allow access to research points. For PSI, again we already have plenty of research points. It's hard to not take it personally. I've had my own character involved in the missions for 5 weeks now, and in the 11th hour, TLT stops that effort with rather wimpy justifications. You stole victory from me at the last possible moment without a fare fight, and there's nothing I can do about it. Yea. That really bakes my noodle. BTW: What you define as backstab is actually betrayal (a far more serious infraction). A backstab is actually getting hit in the back when you weren't anticipating any such blow, especially so when the victim doesn't even know that a fight is going on before the blow lands. This is especially applicable to this situation because it didn't look like TLT was actually interested in the artifact at all. But none the less you "struck" and prevented anyone from getting it.
McJarvis 01-30-07, 08:31 PM	You stole victory from me at the last possible moment without a fare fight, and there's nothing I can do about it. Yea. That really bakes my noodle. Then get mad at the rules that allow it to happen. It's stupid that a guild can intercept & pretty much automatically win just because of a time table.
MindWandererB 01-30-07, 09:24 PM	Then get mad at the rules that allow it to happen. It's stupid that a guild can intercept & pretty much automatically win just because of a time table.I couldn't agree more with this. The rigid timetable makes it so that if you're delayed by even the slightest amount, the other guilds can force you to fail without challenge. We did, in fact, express interest in the artifact (although as I said, in retrospect we probably shouldn't have)--we sent the maximum possible resources toward recovering it. We just failed very quickly. Here's the worst-case scenario I was imagining: PSI wins the artifact. At some point, CEF steals it from them with one of its uber-characters. Research is something--really, the only thing--they sorely lack. The artifact would allow them to build EDU structures anywhere they want and allow them to close that one weakness. And the strong get stronger. Sorry you don't agree with our justifications, but that's up to you.
Always-Late 01-31-07, 01:43 AM	I veote that you nurse the grudge forever, have your guild declare war on the other guild, and kill off it's members at every possible turn. All silently, sneakliy, and without warning, of course.
Rauul 01-31-07, 06:58 AM	Ok i need a to know how this works here at CoCo.. if you pay 10 credits to used the necromancer variant. A 1st-level necromancer using this variant can begin play with an undead minion (a human warrior skeleton). Obtaining this minion takes 24 hours and uses up magical materials that cost 100 gp. This creature is a loyal servant that follows the necromancer's commands and accompanies her on adventures if desired. If the skeletal minion is destroyed, the necromancer suffers no ill effects and may replace it by performing a ceremony identical to the one that allowed her to obtain her first servant. At 1st level, the skeleton is completely typical, but it gains power as the necromancer gains levels. The skeleton has a number of Hit Dice equal to the necromancer's class level. Add one-half the necromancer's class level to the skeleton's natural armor bonus. Add one-third of the necromancer's class level to the skeleton's Strength and Dexterity scores. A necromancer using this variant permanently gives up the ability to obtain a familiar. with this formula the skeleton would be of equal level to the necromancer, and could be outfitted with weapons and armor by the necromancer.. is this how it works?
MitzaVolchenko 01-31-07, 07:01 AM	It was clear from week one that this would happen. It was too easy to completely ruin another guild's chances. Technically Indi still has one fight to run before interception. I posed a question regarding preventing interceptions in EHTC...still don't know if it is even possible. *shrugs* Good idea absolutely horrendous execution and conditions.
Etiquette_Gnome 01-31-07, 08:37 AM	In regards to your necromancer question, yes that is how it would work mechanically. Keep in mind, however, that the HD of the skeleton is not the CR. A 3 hit die skeleton would be a CR 1, which remains allowable for allies. Now, the way the rules work in regards to allies you're allowed to have around here in the CoCo, I don't know if that skeleton would count against you or not. Mechanically, you would actually have a CR 2 skeleton at level 4, which I know is normally not allowed in most circumstances. From what I can tell, that skeleton would fit under the same umbrella as the druid's animal companion, which is completely seperate for ally rules. Thus, my interpretation of the rules is that you're fine with that skeleton around and it won't count against you in any way in regards to how many/powerful your other allies may be. Of course, I'm not an official, so my word isn't exactly law...
Zevox 01-31-07, 08:43 AM	Now, the way the rules work in regards to allies you're allowed to have around here in the CoCo, I don't know if that skeleton would count against you or not. Mechanically, you would actually have a CR 2 skeleton at level 4, which I know is normally not allowed in most circumstances. Oh, it'd definitely be allowed - its a class feature ally, which never need to adhere to the ECL/CR cap or reduce rewards (with the exception of the leadership-like allies of Thrallherds and Planar Cohorts of Thaumaturges, who don't reduce rewards but do count against the cap). Zevox
waywreth 01-31-07, 08:57 AM	They stole victory from me at the last possible moment without a fare fight, and there's nothing I can do about it. Yea. That really bakes my noodle. I'm agreeing with both of you here to some degree. I think it defeats the entire purpose of an event if you can stop a guild from winning an event purely by scheduling rather than an actual fight. In that vein, any guild could have just waited until the 2nd to last week and activated an interception with a level 3 character against the quester...
Maraxus 01-31-07, 09:20 AM	The skeleton would be a very good class ally. I noted that as one of the better choises, too. Probably somewhere around a Paladin's mount, or a druid animal companion. He get's more HD - but undead hit dies. Well, one unclear thing maybe (from the wording, an idea of balance should make the answer clear): Does the Skeleton need to stay a human warrior skeleton, or can you later on replace it with meaner creatures?
hogarth 01-31-07, 09:24 AM	Well, one unclear thing maybe (from the wording, an idea of balance should make the answer clear): Does the Skeleton need to stay a human warrior skeleton, or can you later on replace it with meaner creatures? It absolutely has to be a human warrior skeleton. That knocks it down a few notches in terms of how powerful it is.
Maraxus 01-31-07, 10:03 AM	hogarth: Yes, I see it that way, too. A question from me, it sounds constructed to be a headache to the Coco rules, but that's what I just tripped over: Let's say you have a Psionic Warrior. Let's name him Durin for no reason. He has a total of 4 pp. This means max 2 per fight, plus what's accumulated. In his first fight he needs none. As far as I see it, this means in his second fight, he has 3 (rounding after adding 1.3 to 1.3). Of this 3, he uses 1. So basicly for his last fight, he would have the remaining 3. But then, he sunndenly levels up, getting another 3. How many points is he now allowed to spend in his last fight? * All (6) remaining, because the 1/3 rule isn't that relevant anymore, anyway. * The 3 plus 1/3 of the new = 4. * 1/3 of new total of 7 = 4, plus 1, because that's what he saved over from the previous two fights.
hogarth 01-31-07, 10:11 AM	That's not how it works. If you have 4 power points in total, then that means: First fight: can use 2 pp Second fight: can use 2 pp plus whatever's left from Fight 1 (yes, that means that you can use up all of your pp by the second fight) Third fight: can use whatever's left from the first two fights The situation where you have 4 power points/spell levels is strange (since you can use them all before your third battle), but that's the way it goes. EDIT: Memo to self -- read the WHOLE question before answering. A question from me, it sounds constructed to be a headache to the Coco rules, but that's what I just tripped over: Let's say you have a Psionic Warrior. Let's name him Durin for no reason. He has a total of 4 pp. This means max 2 per fight, plus what's accumulated. In his first fight he needs none. As far as I see it, this means in his second fight, he has 3 (rounding after adding 1.3 to 1.3). Of this 3, he uses 1. So basicly for his last fight, he would have the remaining 3. But then, he sunndenly levels up, getting another 3. How many points is he now allowed to spend in his last fight? * All (6) remaining, because the 1/3 rule isn't that relevant anymore, anyway. * The 3 plus 1/3 of the new = 4. * 1/3 of new total of 7 = 4, plus 1, because that's what he saved over from the previous two fights.
Etiquette_Gnome 01-31-07, 10:13 AM	My impression is that the last fight in your 3FC allows you your full resources remaining because the 1/3 rule doesn't apply by that point. A more interesting question would be if you levelled from the first fight, and thus have more PP in the second one.
Erithmu 01-31-07, 10:13 AM	But since Hogarth didn't actually answer the question the answer is you can use whatever you have left. However in the case of psionics remember that if you have 0 pp remaining you can't have a psi focus to used focus expending feats.
Hirumajoe 01-31-07, 12:21 PM	Could someone point me to the original argument regarding taking free actions when its someone else's initiative action? Or could paraphrase it? I've been re-reading the combat section in depth, and I can't get my head around the fact that you can ready a free action, but free actions in and of themselves seem to be automatically readied, as used here. In the case of speaking as a free action, thats listed specifically as a free action you can take when its not your turn, while others like dropping a weapon say nothing about being on your turn or not. Also, is there a list of free actions somewhere that states what can and cannot be used on your opponents turns?
Zevox 01-31-07, 12:35 PM	Could someone point me to the original argument regarding taking free actions when its someone else's initiative action? Or could paraphrase it? I've been re-reading the combat section in depth, and I can't get my head around the fact that you can ready a free action, but free actions in and of themselves seem to be automatically readied, as used here. In the case of speaking as a free action, thats listed specifically as a free action you can take when its not your turn, while others like dropping a weapon say nothing about being on your turn or not. Also, is there a list of free actions somewhere that states what can and cannot be used on your opponents turns? Simply put, unless its a readied action or one that is specifically allowed on another's turn (like speaking), you cannot take a free action on another character's turn. In fact, theres a seperate type of action that exist to be done like that, immediate actions, and you can only take one of those per round. Zevox
Hirumajoe 01-31-07, 12:38 PM	Simply put, unless its a readied action or one that is specifically allowed on another's turn (like speaking), you cannot take a free action on another character's turn. In fact, theres a seperate type of action that exist to be done like that, immediate actions, and you can only take one of those per round. Zevox Then why does everyone and their brother let go and grab onto their two handed weapons on their opponent's turn? Depending on whatever is the most favorable? I can understand taking the free action to let go with one hand on a two-handed weapon as the *last* thing you do on your turn. Which alot of people put into their tactics. That makes perfect sense to me. What doesn't make sense is the free actions to let go in response to someone else's action. Or to grab on in response to someone else's action.
TelinArtho 01-31-07, 12:53 PM	Well, if it were me - I'd say that they could remove a hand from a two-handed weapon before the end of that character's action - but it would mean that the person no longer threatens with that two-handed weapon. In other words, if the person in question has a two-handed weapon, does not threaten with his hands regularly, does not have armor spikes and has deflect arrows - releasing the two-handed weapon makes him unable to take AoO. Of course, if the person only gains from having one hand on his weapon, it is assumed that's the last action he takes. If he only gains from having both hands on his weapon (ie - doesn't have deflect arrows), then it is assumed that he keeps both hands on. The gray area is when he gives up any form of AoO for the benefit of deflect arrows.
Hirumajoe 01-31-07, 01:07 PM	Valen Sky was just in a fight where his opponent had a spiked Gauntlet and a Composite Longbow. His opponent specifically wrote in his tactics that he would let go of the bow with the spiked gauntlet so he could make AoOs. Macbrea (the pitlord) noted that you can let go and grab onto your bow as a free action, so he both makes a AoO and gets the benefits of Attack Roll + usual attack modifiers versus a sunder attempt on the bow (as opposed to the bow just being carried and not wielded for a 10 + size + dex AC). Should this not have been that case (not that I'm asking for a re-match or anything) but I'd really like to know for future reference. (Although I suppose it were ruled that you are wielding a composite longbow with just one hand, its a moot point). And threatening AoOs isn't the only case. I can imagine the situation where you would move to attempt to sunder/disarm that two handed weapon if its being held in one hand, since its being wielded improperly, or ranged attack if both hands are on it (i.e. draw Javelin while taking a move action and then throw).
TelinArtho 01-31-07, 01:29 PM	In the specific case of the bow (and crossbow), I would not require the second hand on it to be considered a weapon for the purposes of disarm or sundering. In the case of a two-handed weapon being sundered when the player only has one hand on it specifically, then he would not gain the +4 bonus when defending with it (same with disarm).
Hirumajoe 01-31-07, 01:43 PM	Ok, those rulings I can understand. Thank you for the clarification.
MindWandererB 01-31-07, 02:32 PM	Keep in mind that bows and crossbows, while they require two hands to fire, are not typically held in two hands. In fact, the bow is typically held in the off-hand (where there may be a functioning buckler). The other hand should be free to do whatever.
Macbrea 01-31-07, 02:43 PM	Longbow reads, 'You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. ' Sunder reads, 'The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a sunder attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a -4 penalty. If the combatants are of different sizes, the larger combatant gets a bonus on the attack roll of +4 per difference in size category.' Removing your hands from the two handed weapon doesn't change wether it was a two handed weapon or a one handed weapon for determination of wether the item breaks easier or harder. A two handed sword carried in just one hand is just as difficult to break. The weapon is two handed for that wielder. Example: is a Bastard sword +0 to break wielded one hand and +4 when the person is wielding it two handed? Or is it always +4 to break for being a two handed sword. Technically, by how the above is written Izumi wields a two times oversized light weapon in two hands. Does that make the weapon +4 or -4 to sunder?
Hirumajoe 01-31-07, 02:51 PM	Longbow reads, 'You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. ' Sunder reads, 'The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a sunder attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a -4 penalty. If the combatants are of different sizes, the larger combatant gets a bonus on the attack roll of +4 per difference in size category.' Removing your hands from the two handed weapon doesn't change wether it was a two handed weapon or a one handed weapon for determination of wether the item breaks easier or harder. A two handed sword carried in just one hand is just as difficult to break. The weapon is two handed for that wielder. Example: is a Bastard sword +0 to break wielded one hand and +4 when the person is wielding it two handed? Or is it always +4 to break for being a two handed sword. Technically, by how the above is written Izumi wields a two times oversized light weapon in two hands. Does that make the weapon +4 or -4 to sunder? How does one's fighting skill makes something harder to break? I think you're confusing the damage roll for the to-hit roll. In the bastard sword case, it being on the ground would make it easier to hit. Since no one is there to make the opposing attack roll... The determination of how hard it is to break is based on the damage dealt and the hit points of the object. The attack roll is to determine if you *hit* it. If you're holding an adamantine statue, its hard to break because it has hardness 20 and X hitpoints per inch of thickness. You would still only need to roll a 10 + size + dex to hit it, regardless of whether it was being held in one hand or two hands. I'm also kinda curious on the wording, since it says a wielder as opposed to holder. If someone is holding a weapon they physically can not wield, do they get the attack roll + usual attack modifiers just because its a weapon or do they get 10 + size + dex. I would point out that using an incorrect sized weapon would apply a -4 penalty. However, what penalty do you apply to a weapon you can't even use? Edit: As for the oversized light weapon, the way to look at it is from the size point of view. A light weapon to a medium person is a one-handed weapon for a small person. In either case, they have a -4 to the sunder opposed roll versus a Medium person with a one-handed weapon.
MindWandererB 01-31-07, 03:03 PM	Longbow reads, 'You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. ' Sunder reads, 'The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a sunder attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a -4 penalty. If the combatants are of different sizes, the larger combatant gets a bonus on the attack roll of +4 per difference in size category.' Ah, but although they take 2 hands to fire, they're not technically 2-handed weapons, they're missile weapons. That's a statement of category, not of use.Removing your hands from the two handed weapon doesn't change wether it was a two handed weapon or a one handed weapon for determination of wether the item breaks easier or harder. A two handed sword carried in just one hand is just as difficult to break. The weapon is two handed for that wielder. Example: is a Bastard sword +0 to break wielded one hand and +4 when the person is wielding it two handed? Or is it always +4 to break for being a two handed sword. Here, I'm not so sure. It's a lot easier to score a solid hit on someone else's weapon by holding your own in two hands. I've done a small amount of broadsword-style dueling myself, and if you or your opponent is using a disarm strategy, you definitely want to be holding your weapon in both hands. Note that disarm uses the same language as sunder in this regard. The rules are unfortunately quite inconsistent about two-handed weapons, and whether a one-handed weapon wielded in both hands is a two-handed weapon. Clearly it's ludicrous that a bastard sword become easier to sunder when you gain proficiency in it. Technically, by how the above is written Izumi wields a two times oversized light weapon in two hands. Does that make the weapon +4 or -4 to sunder?Urg... if we argue that the bonus is a property of the weapon, then technically it's a Gargantuan light weapon. That gives it +12 and -4, total of +8. If it's a property of the wielder, we would consider it a 2-handed Large weapon (due to Powerful Build), which would be +4 and +4, total +8 again. I think it's a little warped to consider it only a light Large weapon.
TelinArtho 01-31-07, 03:17 PM	The weapon takes on a property of how it is wielded. A bastard sword wielded one-handed is easier to deal damage to or to disarm than a bastard sword wielded in two hands. In the case of Izumi, it is a two-handed weapon that has the hit points of a light chain for a gargantuan sized character. The size bonus is that of the wielder - not of the weapon itself. This can be seen in the examples that they give of how to handle reach in the FAQ. An Ogre wielding a medium sized guisarme would not have reach; by the same token a human wielding a large sized two-handed sword would not gain reach. This goes back to my argument about tripping by the way... would everyone like to reconsider now that it is on their mind...?
Hirumajoe 01-31-07, 03:21 PM	Ah, but although they take 2 hands to fire, they're not technically 2-handed weapons, they're missile weapons. That's a statement of category, not of use.Here, I'm not so sure. It's a lot easier to score a solid hit on someone else's weapon by holding your own in two hands. I've done a small amount of broadsword-style dueling myself, and if you or your opponent is using a disarm strategy, you definitely want to be holding your weapon in both hands. Note that disarm uses the same language as sunder in this regard. The rules are unfortunately quite inconsistent about two-handed weapons, and whether a one-handed weapon wielded in both hands is a two-handed weapon. Clearly it's ludicrous that a bastard sword become easier to sunder when you gain proficiency in it. I consider it crazy that its a property of the weapon. Thus, a Tiny sized creature, holding a medium sized two-handed weapon receives a +4 modifier to a disarm/sunder attempt? That seems very silly to me. In the case of Bastard sword, using two-hands is innately going to be a stronger grip with more leverage. Just because you can use it in one hand doesn't make a single hand grip stronger or more forceful. I can at least kinda rationalize that in my head. But the other way around makes my head hurt...
Hirumajoe 01-31-07, 03:25 PM	The weapon takes on a property of how it is wielded. A bastard sword wielded one-handed is easier to deal damage to or to disarm than a bastard sword wielded in two hands. In the case of Izumi, it is a two-handed weapon that has the hit points of a light chain for a gargantuan sized character. The size bonus is that of the wielder - not of the weapon itself. This can be seen in the examples that they give of how to handle reach in the FAQ. An Ogre wielding a medium sized guisarme would not have reach; by the same token a human wielding a large sized two-handed sword would not gain reach. This goes back to my argument about tripping by the way... would everyone like to reconsider now that it is on their mind...? Umm... Can a human even wield a large sized two-handed sword? Or are you refering to a large one-handed sword? In the same vein, isn't it illegal to wield a Greatsword in one hand? You simply cannot make the attack?
McJarvis 01-31-07, 03:33 PM	Ah, but although they take 2 hands to fire, they're not technically 2-handed weapons, they're missile weapons. That's a statement of category, not of use. There is precident(disarm) for a "2-handed weapons" just meaning "any weapon that is held by two hands" and not the categories themselves. this may be an entierly different situation though, I didn't read much into it
MindWandererB 01-31-07, 03:34 PM	I consider it crazy that its a property of the weapon. Thus, a Tiny sized creature, holding a medium sized two-handed weapon receives a +4 modifier to a disarm/sunder attempt? That seems very silly to me. In the case of Bastard sword, using two-hands is innately going to be a stronger grip with more leverage. Just because you can use it in one hand doesn't make a single hand grip stronger or more forceful. I can at least kinda rationalize that in my head. But the other way around makes my head hurt...First of all, a tiny creature can't use a medium 2-handed weapon by any stretch of the imagination. If it did somehow, then yes, it could be argued that it would get a +4 bonus, just as a half-giant gets a +8 bonus when using a Large 2-handed weapon. If the tiny creature used, for example, a Medium shortsword as a 2-handed weapon, then it would get a -4 penalty for using a light, medium weapon, the same as a human doing so. Note that this is the same penalty that it would get for a tiny greatsword (-8 size, +4 2-handed).
Hirumajoe 01-31-07, 03:37 PM	First of all, a tiny creature can't use a medium 2-handed weapon by any stretch of the imagination. If it did somehow, then yes, it could be argued that it would get a +4 bonus, just as a half-giant gets a +8 bonus when using a Large 2-handed weapon. If the tiny creature used, for example, a Medium shortsword as a 2-handed weapon, then it would get a -4 penalty for using a light, medium weapon, the same as a human doing so. Note that this is the same penalty that it would get for a tiny greatsword (-8 size, +4 2-handed). So you're saying if a character cannot physically use the weapon, they don't actually get the opposing attack roll? At which point I submit the fact that a medium sized character cannot physically use a medium two-handed sword in one hand (or a large one-handed sword in one hand), and thus if you're holding a Greatsword in one hand, you don't get an opposed roll versus a sunder attempt.
Macbrea 01-31-07, 03:43 PM	The FAQ answer is: You can get a host of benefits from wielding a twohanded weapon, such as 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage (and twice your damage bonus from the Power Attack feat) and a +4 bonus on your opposed attack roll if someone tries to disarm you. So when is a weapon “twohanded?” For example, a lance is a two-handed weapon, right? But you can wield it in one hand when you’re mounted. Since the weapons table shows that a lance is a two-handed weapon, I get all the two-handed benefits no matter how I wield the lance, right? Wrong. Table 7–5 in the Player’s Handbook lists weapons as light, one-handed, or two-handed strictly as a matter of convenience. These size categories are always relative to the wielder’s size, as explained in some detail in the section on weapon size on page 113 in the Player’s Handbook (also see next question). When the combat rules speak of “two-handed” weapons, they’re referring to how the weapon is being used. A Medium character using a Medium longsword in two hands is using a “two-handed” weapon. The same character using a Medium lance in one hand while mounted is using a one-handed weapon. Light weapons are an exception. If you wield a light weapon in two hands you get no advantage on damage (see page 113 in the Player’s Handbook). Likewise, you always take a –4 penalty on your opposed roll when you’re wielding a light weapon in a disarm attempt (when someone tries to disarm you or you try to disarm someone) regardless of whether you wield it one- or two-handed. It appears the only rules that saves Izumi from the -4 to sunder attempts appears to be the innapropriate weapon size rules. That state: The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all. Which makes her light weapon a two-handed weapon by the rules.
MindWandererB 01-31-07, 03:50 PM	Which would mean that if a character physically cannot wield a weapon, then the rules for attacking a held object apply, rather than the rules for attacking a weapon. Which actually makes perfect sense.
Hirumajoe 01-31-07, 03:54 PM	Which would mean that if a character physically cannot wield a weapon, then the rules for attacking a held object apply, rather than the rules for attacking a weapon. Which actually makes perfect sense. Yes. Thats what I was going for. Which in turn means a medium two-handed weapon, held in one hand by a medium sized creature is treated as a held object, since it physically cannot be wielded that way (which was what I was looking for earlier...). However, we then have the odd case of bows. Which by real world reasoning should be able to held in one hand, however the rules clearly state they require two to be "used". Of course, I've never understood why a bow, which can't be used in melee anyways, gets the opposed roll, while something like a wand doesn't. But thats real world reasoning for you, which doesn't apply to D&D... :D I'd love to argue that a bow can't physically be used in melee and thus it never gets the opposed roll.
Macbrea 01-31-07, 04:03 PM	I think strictly speaking after reading through the rules Projectile weapons are not weapons for purposes of disarming. I will check though the faq to see if they have any statements on it.
SauroGrenom 01-31-07, 05:55 PM	Since Raskos is Frozen does his power ratting change any more? He's in a fight with some lower ECL opponents, and I'd like to know if that fight has any impact on his record or reputation.
MindWandererB 01-31-07, 06:00 PM	IIRC, frozen characters' powerratings are also frozen, because they can go all-out without actually costing them anything.
Vathelokai 01-31-07, 11:40 PM	Build question: I was considering making a two-weapon fighting full attacker type and I got to wondering about how well that would actually work here. Very few fights I've ever been in have given the option to full attack. It only seems to come up when two fighters with high armor are paired against each other. Could I get some advice from someone who knows fighters better than I?
Vathelokai 01-31-07, 11:41 PM	IIRC, frozen characters' powerratings are also frozen, because they can go all-out without actually costing them anything. Correct. The frozen character has a frozen power rating, but the characters fighting him recieve rewards and power rating increases normally.
SauroGrenom 01-31-07, 11:49 PM	Sorry Vath, I was having fun with the mission, but there's no point in continuing now. I've had Raskos surrender the interception fight. Perhaps we can do something different soon.
Erithmu 01-31-07, 11:49 PM	Build question: I was considering making a two-weapon fighting full attacker type and I got to wondering about how well that would actually work here. Very few fights I've ever been in have given the option to full attack. It only seems to come up when two fighters with high armor are paired against each other. Could I get some advice from someone who knows fighters better than I? You might look at the career of Farig or Kage (although all of Kage's fights have been lost to pruning) Might give you some ideas, or options.
TelinArtho 01-31-07, 11:56 PM	Build question: I was considering making a two-weapon fighting full attacker type and I got to wondering about how well that would actually work here. Very few fights I've ever been in have given the option to full attack. It only seems to come up when two fighters with high armor are paired against each other. Could I get some advice from someone who knows fighters better than I? I'm actually quite fond of Farig's relative success so far. I will say that if you are going to try to force melee - either a mount or some boost in speed is necessary (barbarian or monk levels or speed of thought or spells). I originally thought a nice boost in size would be useful - but I only had call to actually want it in one or two of her fights. Obviously giving yourself a decent will save is a nice bonus too. Other than that - picking weapons they work well together is a good idea. If you want to maximize your attack bonus with weapon focus - I would strongly suggest using the same weapon in each hand - and dual weapons are probably the best avenue for it. Another route you could proceed with is possibly Deflect Arrows - in order to force archers into melee at least. But given the feat-heavy route of the TWF tree - it may not fit in or at least not fit in early. I can't comment too much on the benefits of doing it with psionics access - since I rarely use them - but someone else might be able to add on that matter.
Zevox 02-01-07, 12:04 AM	Build question: I was considering making a two-weapon fighting full attacker type and I got to wondering about how well that would actually work here. Very few fights I've ever been in have given the option to full attack. It only seems to come up when two fighters with high armor are paired against each other. Could I get some advice from someone who knows fighters better than I? They're certainly workable. Telin's Farig, Abyssal's Ikhain, and my Annalina Vale all currently use it. Farig is probably one of the better straight-fighters we've ever seen around here (the fact that shes one of the only ones notwithstanding), Annalina has done damn good for a Bard (admittably she has many other abilities, but shes had plenty of chances to use her TWF thanks to her expeditious retreat spells), and Ikhain, though still relatively untested (being only level 4), seems to be pretty formidable (my Mithos faced him last week, and had to resort to "wand of MM on a horse" tactics for me to feel he had good odds of winning). Edit: On Psionics w/ TWF - If you want to consider those, powers to use would include Force Screen (obviously - +4 shield to AC with no penalty while using two weapons is very nice), Offensive Precognition (to counterbalance the inevitable BAB loss from all psionic classes), and Offensive Prescience (+2 damage per hit adds up with many attacks). Skate is also good for a speed boost if you don't have anything better, and for 25 gp you can nab powerstones of Enlarged Entangling Ectoplasm, for 50ft range touch attack entanglement for 5 rounds, which will help with catching and meleeing your foes. Zevox
Vathelokai 02-01-07, 12:32 AM	Sorry Vath, I was having fun with the mission, but there's no point in continuing now. I've had Raskos surrender the interception fight. Perhaps we can do something different soon. I expected. Sad how it worked out, but it reinforces for me how bad the competitive nature of the guild system really is. In case you were wondering, the last fight was 3 Lillends.
Hirumajoe 02-01-07, 10:43 AM	Can a pegsasus (described as having a 20 foot wingspan) fly or hover (assuming they have the feat) in the sewers? Does the wingover feat make any difference also? Basically, how fast can a pegasus move in the sewers... Thanks.
Macbrea 02-01-07, 10:50 AM	Oddly, the size of a pegasus by the rules is 10ft x 10ft x 10ft and it may only reach 5ft from that square. Therefore, it may fly at 0ft off the ground in the sewers. The fact that it describes it with a 20ft wingspan is purely flavor text and only useful when determining that it can be tripped. Wingover and Hover both have uses in the sewers. As it allows quick changes in direction. Note: most halls in the sewers are 10x10 halls. So, your pegasus fills the hall. Riding it places you in the same square and not on top fo the pegasus.
Hirumajoe 02-01-07, 11:04 AM	Oddly, the size of a pegasus by the rules is 10ft x 10ft x 10ft and it may only reach 5ft from that square. Therefore, it may fly at 0ft off the ground in the sewers. The fact that it describes it with a 20ft wingspan is purely flavor text and only useful when determining that it can be tripped. Wingover and Hover both have uses in the sewers. As it allows quick changes in direction. Note: most halls in the sewers are 10x10 halls. So, your pegasus fills the hall. Riding it places you in the same square and not on top fo the pegasus. So given that the water is 1 foot deep, and they can only fly at 0ft off the ground means that they are affected by the water? So does that mean they effectively fly at 60' normal, 30' when hovering?
Zevox 02-01-07, 11:43 AM	So given that the water is 1 foot deep, and they can only fly at 0ft off the ground means that they are affected by the water? So does that mean they effectively fly at 60' normal, 30' when hovering? Nope - when flying, they are above the water (which is at ground level, not above it - if it were above it, it would spill out onto the dry parts of the map, or the dry ground would be only 9' from the ceiling, forcing large creatures to squeeze; and neither of those is true), so they move at full speed. There is precedent for this from previous battles (Morathor, a Half-Celestial Dwarf who used Expansion in that map, for instance, still moved at full speed when he fought the Harvester here). Zevox
Abyssal Stalker 02-01-07, 12:38 PM	Build question: I was considering making a two-weapon fighting full attacker type and I got to wondering about how well that would actually work here. Very few fights I've ever been in have given the option to full attack. It only seems to come up when two fighters with high armor are paired against each other. Could I get some advice from someone who knows fighters better than I?Well, the hardest trick seems to be getting toe-to-toe. That's not usually too hard on lower levels, but when moving higher it starts to be increasingly difficult to find a straight melee. That said, I still prefer melee characters and try to create builds that are good in close quarters. Ikhain is my first take on TWF. His trick is to take all the advantage I can get from his high dexterity score. DEX is the key ability of TWF unless you're a ranger. Combined with weapon finesse it gives you really good attack boni and also makes you capable in ranged combat. And don't forget the high AC. The harder part with DEX builds is to find a good way to deal tons of damage with a single hit. They don't have that kind of brutal force that chargers and power attackers have. But they are able to deal several cuts (the problem might be DR, because that takes away more). If you can find a way to deal lots of damage with a DEX build and can combine that with TWF, you have a really potent melee character.
waywreth 02-01-07, 02:13 PM	It is my opinion that TWF is only optimal in a situations where you can get some kind of bonus damage to the attack, otherwise you'll just miss alot or do minimal damage. In this case I mean something like sneak attack (hard to pull off in a 1v1 environment) or elemental additions (expensive and easily defeated in core). Purely from a statistical point of view, the power attacking 2hs will outdamage the TWF. You bring up a great point though - there aren't alot of full attacks. The COCO is all about evasion and mobility.
Macbrea 02-01-07, 02:35 PM	Best I can figure the worse your chance of hitting the better your damage is: Str: 18 Dex: 18 Level 7 fighter Assuming Weapon focus in weapon and specialization Two-handed sword +2 Double Bladed Longsword +1/+1 Primary hand Primary Hand Offhand AC To Hit DPR AC To Hit DPR To Hit DPR Total DPR 16 70% 11.90 16 55% 6.33 55% 5.23 11.55 17 65% 11.05 17 50% 5.75 50% 4.75 10.50 18 60% 10.20 18 45% 5.18 45% 4.28 9.45 19 55% 9.35 19 40% 4.60 40% 3.80 8.40 20 50% 8.50 20 35% 4.03 35% 3.33 7.35 21 45% 7.65 21 30% 3.45 30% 2.85 6.30 22 40% 6.80 22 25% 2.88 25% 2.38 5.25 23 35% 5.95 23 20% 2.30 20% 1.90 4.20 24 30% 5.10 24 15% 1.73 15% 1.43 3.15 25 25% 4.25 25 10% 1.15 10% 0.95 2.10 26 20% 3.40 26 5% 0.58 5% 0.48 1.05 27 15% 2.55 27 5% 0.58 5% 0.48 1.05 28 10% 1.70 28 5% 0.58 5% 0.48 1.05 29 5% 0.85 29 5% 0.58 5% 0.48 1.05 30 5% 0.85 30 5% 0.58 5% 0.48 1.05 31 5% 0.85 31 5% 0.58 5% 0.48 1.05 32 5% 0.85 32 5% 0.58 5% 0.48 1.05 DPR = Damage per round
TelinArtho 02-01-07, 02:38 PM	I don't know that I necessarily agree with that Waywreth - but at low levels it can seem that way. However, at 6th level and higher, with 4 attacks per round, weapon specialization can go a long way to making up the difference. Compare 1d8+5/1d8+3/1d8+5/1d8+3 and a +9 on the first 2 and +4 on the second 2 versus 2d6+6/2d6+6 with attack bonus of +11/+6 or 2d6+10/2d6+10 to keep the same attack bonus. In terms of raw damage, the TWF can maximize up to 48 points of damage while the 2HF is putting out 44 points. Granted against opponents with damage reduction, the 2HF comes out ahead, but if a TWF can make use of combat style - tripping, disarming, sundering, etc - then using TWF can be a significant advantage. A TWF can trip, disarm, sunder and hit all in the same round while the 2HF can trip and disarm and sunder - but not hit in the same round. As to applying extra dice - I would purport that it is more useful for a TWF than for a 2HF. For instance, the 2HF wants flaming on his weapon. Against someone with Fire Resistance 10 - his weapon will likely rarely get a benefit from it. Compare that to the TWF - who puts flaming on both sides - now Fire Resistance 10 is regularly beaten (with as much as 14 points). Or instead of flaming on both sides, make it 2 element types - and it is harder to resist them both. Total cost for the 2 elemental types - 16k versus the 2HF who pays 18k for the same benefit. The big downside to TWF though is the heavy cost of feats in order to make it "worth it." This is why, I think, most people don't take it - since there are relatively few pure fighters in the CoCo, and those that are - tend to focus on ranged attacks rather than melee. I also tend to believe that TWFs gain more benefit (for the investment) by picking up the entire WF/WS/GWF/GWS tree - while the 2HF can pretty much stay away from it and still do reasonably well. Lastly, it isn't always the best route to take to focus on absolute damage. Sometimes with enough finesse, you can find a route that succeeds quite well without it.
Macbrea 02-01-07, 02:39 PM	Hmm, my statistic isn't quite right.. have to do it assuming standing two to toe.. forgot the secondary attacks.
hogarth 02-01-07, 02:44 PM	Compare that to the TWF - who puts flaming on both sides - now Fire Resistance 10 is regularly beaten (with as much as 14 points). Fire resistance (at least from reading the Resist Energy spell) applies to "each time the creature is subjected to such damage"; it's not a per-round maximum.
Macbrea 02-01-07, 02:45 PM	Str: 18 Dex: 18 Level 7 fighter Assuming Weapon focus in weapon and specialization Two-handed sword +2 Double Bladed Longsword +1/+1 Primary hand Primary Hand Offhand AC To Hit DPR To Hit DPR Total DPR AC To Hit DPR To Hit DPR To Hit DPR To Hit DPR Total DPR 16 70% 11.90 45% 7.65 19.55 16 55% 6.33 30% 3.45 55% 5.23 30% 2.85 17.85 17 65% 11.05 40% 6.80 17.85 17 50% 5.75 25% 2.88 50% 4.75 25% 2.38 15.75 18 60% 10.20 35% 5.95 16.15 18 45% 5.18 20% 2.30 45% 4.28 20% 1.90 13.65 19 55% 9.35 30% 5.10 14.45 19 40% 4.60 15% 1.73 40% 3.80 15% 1.43 11.55 20 50% 8.50 25% 4.25 12.75 20 35% 4.03 10% 1.15 35% 3.33 10% 0.95 9.45 21 45% 7.65 20% 3.40 11.05 21 30% 3.45 5% 0.58 30% 2.85 5% 0.48 7.35 22 40% 6.80 15% 2.55 9.35 22 25% 2.88 5% 0.58 25% 2.38 5% 0.48 6.30 23 35% 5.95 10% 1.70 7.65 23 20% 2.30 5% 0.58 20% 1.90 5% 0.48 5.25 24 30% 5.10 5% 0.85 5.95 24 15% 1.73 5% 0.58 15% 1.43 5% 0.48 4.20 25 25% 4.25 5% 0.85 5.10 25 10% 1.15 5% 0.58 10% 0.95 5% 0.48 3.15 26 20% 3.40 5% 0.85 4.25 26 5% 0.58 5% 0.58 5% 0.48 5% 0.48 2.10 27 15% 2.55 5% 0.85 3.40 27 5% 0.58 5% 0.58 5% 0.48 5% 0.48 2.10 28 10% 1.70 5% 0.85 2.55 28 5% 0.58 5% 0.58 5% 0.48 5% 0.48 2.10 29 5% 0.85 5% 0.85 1.70 29 5% 0.58 5% 0.58 5% 0.48 5% 0.48 2.10 30 5% 0.85 5% 0.85 1.70 30 5% 0.58 5% 0.58 5% 0.48 5% 0.48 2.10 31 5% 0.85 5% 0.85 1.70 31 5% 0.58 5% 0.58 5% 0.48 5% 0.48 2.10 32 5% 0.85 5% 0.85 1.70 32 5% 0.58 5% 0.58 5% 0.48 5% 0.48 2.10 DPR = Damage per round Two hander still appears to be a better style for damage output until you get to the point that you only hit 5% of the time.
TelinArtho 02-01-07, 02:49 PM	Fire resistance (at least from reading the Resist Energy spell) applies to "each time the creature is subjected to such damage"; it's not a per-round maximum. Looks to me like the flavor text is getting in the way again: The subject gains energy resistance 10 against the energy type chosen, meaning that each time the creature is subjected to such damage (whether from a natural or magical source), that damage is reduced by 10 points before being applied to the creature’s hit points. A creature with resistance to energy has the ability (usually extraordinary) to ignore some damage of a certain type each round, but it does not have total immunity. I have always known Resist Energy to provide Resistance 10 per round - not per attack. EDIT - Actually on re-reading it - I'm not so sure anymore - as this is definitely text that has been changed since 3.0... Energy Resistance on a creature is not worded the same as Resist Energy the spell nor the Energy resistance for magic items (like armor).
Hirumajoe 02-01-07, 02:54 PM	Fire resistance (at least from reading the Resist Energy spell) applies to "each time the creature is subjected to such damage"; it's not a per-round maximum. Resistance To Energy A creature with resistance to energy has the ability (usually extraordinary) to ignore some damage of a certain type each round, but it does not have total immunity. Each resistance ability is defined by what energy type it resists and how many points of damage are resisted. It doesn’t matter whether the damage has a mundane or magical source. When resistance completely negates the damage from an energy attack, the attack does not disrupt a spell. This resistance does not stack with the resistance that a spell might provide. While the spell seems to indicate that its per hit, the definition of the ability, energy resistance, indicates that its per round. I would tend to go with the definition of the ability over the quick explanation in the spell. Edit: Beaten to the punch... Sigh.
SauroGrenom 02-01-07, 02:59 PM	Vath, The two weapon fighting builds are cool, but in CoCo the only way I can see it happening is if you make a psiwarrior and get the psionic lion's charge power. Even there, you'll still have some trouble getting enough feats. There are a few good psionic feats that can help improve movement speed and allow you to charge around a corner. Get some flight and you could be in business. You may also consider non standard 2wf builds. You can use armor spikes as the 2nd weapon and still wield a 2 handed power attack weapon. That's the best I can offer.
hogarth 02-01-07, 03:03 PM	EDIT - Actually on re-reading it - I'm not so sure anymore - as this is definitely text that has been changed since 3.0... Energy Resistance on a creature is not worded the same as Resist Energy the spell nor the Energy resistance for magic items (like armor). Yes, it changed between 3.0 and 3.5, but they didn't correct it in the SRD. Here's the wording from the 3.5 Monster Manual (I don't have the book with me, but I Googled an identical argument): Resistance to Energy (Ex): A creature with this special quality ignores some damage of the indicated type each time it takes damage of that kind (commonly acid, cold, fire, or electricity). The entry indicates the amount and type of damage ignored. For example, a lillend has resistance to fire 10, so it ignores the first 10 points of fire damage dealt to it anytime it takes fire damage.
TelinArtho 02-01-07, 03:10 PM	Well, that just lends credence to the benefit of using multiple energy types or upgrading to the better energy types... Anyway - as I said before, TWF has less to do with dealing maximum damage and has more to do with (in my opinion) setting up better opportunities. A TWF can trip/sunder/disarm up to three times and attack for damage all in the same round at 6th level. And if the character trips the opponent, then having Improved Disarm and Improved Sunder are not as important - since the opponent can't make attacks of opportunity. Getting a character with Combat Reflexes in these cases can go a long way as well...
Zevox 02-01-07, 03:14 PM	Well, I've got a new character I'm working on - Arden Tarmick. Hes to be a replacement for Indrithia with the EHTC when I retire her. Basic idea is simple enough - starts off going to wilder3/fighter 2, picks up an Elocater level at 6 (for Scorn Earth, the free Sidestep Charge feat, +1 Wilder ML, and lots of skills), then from there goes Warmind (and abuses the hell out of Wild Surge with its powers). Level 4 he picks up +1 dex to boost ac and ranged attacks, plus crafts Mithril Full Plate and Deepcrystal weapons. Level 6 Improved Trip comes in, and level 7 he gets his first Warmind level with Expansion as his power (wild surged he can already get it for a full 3 minute duration then) to help that along. But anyway, any comments/suggestions before I have Pitlords add him to the roster? Re: TWF/Energy damage conversation - Bah, just pick the Psychokinetic enhancement instead. Its only 1d4 bonus damage, but it can't be resisted by anything. Zevox
MindWandererB 02-01-07, 03:57 PM	Important Ask Wizards today: Q: Dear Sage, If a rogue has successfully hidden behind some bushes and fires an arrow at a target less than 30 feet away from her, does she deal sneak attack damage? --Todd A: Yes. The rules don’t come right out and say this, but a character who has successfully hidden from an opponent is considered invisible for the purpose of rendering that foe flat-footed, and thus deals sneak attack damage.So it is clarified that sniping is not necessary for this purpose, only for remaining hidden after the attack. Good to know.
Hirumajoe 02-01-07, 04:31 PM	Well, that just lends credence to the benefit of using multiple energy types or upgrading to the better energy types... Anyway - as I said before, TWF has less to do with dealing maximum damage and has more to do with (in my opinion) setting up better opportunities. A TWF can trip/sunder/disarm up to three times and attack for damage all in the same round at 6th level. And if the character trips the opponent, then having Improved Disarm and Improved Sunder are not as important - since the opponent can't make attacks of opportunity. Getting a character with Combat Reflexes in these cases can go a long way as well... Since when does being prone prevent you from making attacks of opportunity? Yes, it makes them harder with all the penalties and what not, but it doesn't out right prevent them. Admittedly, having your opponent prone also makes those Sunders and Disarms even easier...
TelinArtho 02-01-07, 04:37 PM	Hmm - it appears I misspoke. I thought you didn't threaten the area around when you were prone - but it seems I am mistaken (as in - I can't find the phantom text that says this anyway...).
Hirumajoe 02-01-07, 04:44 PM	Ok, one more dumb question. (I seem to have alot of these lately...): For the Scout Attack/Defend skill package found here, it doesn't explicitly say you can take 10 on the Survival roll for the track. Are you required to get the pitlord to roll, or can you choose to take 10 (or are you in fact forced to take 10?)
MindWandererB 02-01-07, 05:18 PM	The rules do say this: If there are rolls involved, the pitlord sets them up before you send tactics.So presumably there are indeed cases where you don't take 10 (or "take 0," as is more often the case with our house rules), and it looks like this is one of them. Unless Cat forgot something.
Hirumajoe 02-01-07, 06:17 PM	The rules do say this: So presumably there are indeed cases where you don't take 10 (or "take 0," as is more often the case with our house rules), and it looks like this is one of them. Unless Cat forgot something. Seems kinda odd considering in a table top game, you're always going to be taking 10 (since taking at least a full round action to track in the middle of combat seems... unwise). But I'll go with the flow (and prod McJarvis for the roll :D ).
MindWandererB 02-01-07, 06:25 PM	Seems kinda odd considering in a table top game, you're always going to be taking 10 (since taking at least a full round action to track in the middle of combat seems... unwise). But I'll go with the flow (and prod McJarvis for the roll :D ). I don't follow this logic... taking 10 takes just as long as rolling. And you can't take 10 in combat anyway.
Hirumajoe 02-01-07, 06:38 PM	I don't follow this logic... taking 10 takes just as long as rolling. And you can't take 10 in combat anyway. I was simply commenting on the fact that if you are in combat, a situation where you cannot take 10 (since you are threatened or distracted) you are generally not going to be using a skill action which takes anywhere from a full-round to hours to complete. Standing there looking at the ground while someone is hacking you to bits is an action that I consider unwise. Also, if you are in combat with your target, then you don't need to track anymore, since you've obviously found them. Thus, I was just trying to convey the fact that I can't think of a table top situation where you would normally be threatened or distracted and using the track action.
MindWandererB 02-01-07, 07:50 PM	Ah. Good point, unless your 10 isn't good enough (which it probably is in this case).
webscav 02-02-07, 08:53 AM	Important Ask Wizards today: Q: Dear Sage, If a rogue has successfully hidden behind some bushes and fires an arrow at a target less than 30 feet away from her, does she deal sneak attack damage? --Todd A: Yes. The rules don’t come right out and say this, but a character who has successfully hidden from an opponent is considered invisible for the purpose of rendering that foe flat-footed, and thus deals sneak attack damage. So it is clarified that sniping is not necessary for this purpose, only for remaining hidden after the attack. Good to know. I think you have the timing off in your interpritation of what was said here. The question was if someone already has hidden and fires at someone do they get sneak attack. Sniping just lets a person stay hidden after attacking, otherwise the opponent knows where the shot came from even if the shooter goes and hides again sucessfully.
webscav 02-02-07, 08:55 AM	I've been pouring through the lists for costs to train animals and can't seem to come up with anything. Where are they?
Abyssal Stalker 02-02-07, 08:57 AM	Rules of Gladius --> NPC services (somewhere in the advanced rules section)
hogarth 02-02-07, 09:05 AM	I think you have the timing off in your interpritation of what was said here. The question was if someone already has hidden and fires at someone do they get sneak attack. Sniping just lets a person stay hidden after attacking, otherwise the opponent knows where the shot came from even if the shooter goes and hides again sucessfully. Yes, that's what they clarified. However, to some people (including me) what made it unclear was the -20 penalty to Hide checks for hiding while attacking -- does that apply before or after the attack is rolled? From this clarification, it looks like it only applies after the attack roll.
webscav 02-02-07, 09:09 AM	Rules of Gladius --> NPC services (somewhere in the advanced rules section) Thanks:) Another relavent question then, animals come pre-trained by default, but with what tricks? The mounts have the combat riding package by default, but can you get anything else?
TelinArtho 02-02-07, 11:21 AM	Okay looking for some brainstorm ideas to finish the spending on Sir Valkin - who has just reached frozen status. Some things to keep in mind: Sir Valkin rarely has a hand free - so scrolls, potions, etc are deliberately kept to a minimum. Total gold available ~11k. Areas where I feel he has trouble: 1. Flying magic users - although not nearly the problem they once were, he still has trouble with them due to his poor touch AC. I'm reluctant to add a Ring of Protection, since his situational Protection from Evil is vastly more useful to him. Keeping a potion of Shield of Faith on hand is not out of the question (and the only reason he doesn't have one currently is because he just used one). 2. Flying archers. These are much less of a problem with Sir Valkin's reasonable AC. I would like to see his AC at a much higher level, and can achieve that reasonable with enhancements to his armor and shield to provide a total boost of +3. That said - that would put him up to 26 AC (30 with Cover from Overseer). Flying opponents, to me, are clearly the deadliest he has a problem with. I've considered picking up a potion of Fly to be drunk by Overseer as a solution however. I don't have enough to pick up an item with 3/day fly - but the situation doesn't come up all that often anyway. The last category of opponent that Sir Valkin had trouble with was a super-hider. With his low spot/listen, he's at the mercy of someone with a +30 hide even if that someone is sniping. I'm not sure how to best tackle this - though a +10 spot item might be a reasonable route to take... Anyway - I don't want to put too much here and cut down the suggestions I get - so have fun.
TelinArtho 02-02-07, 11:26 AM	Thanks:) Another relavent question then, animals come pre-trained by default, but with what tricks? The mounts have the combat riding package by default, but can you get anything else? If you want something other than the combat riding package, you will need to pay for a trainer for each different trick that you want to replace. I was incorrect - please read hogarth's response below.
hogarth 02-02-07, 11:27 AM	Thanks:) Another relavent question then, animals come pre-trained by default, but with what tricks? I believe you can pick any 6 tricks you want for your animal. If you want something other than the combat riding package, you will need to pay for a trainer for each different trick that you want to replace. Where does it say that? The Rules of Gladius just say that purchased animals are "fully trained" -- it's unlikely a guard dog (for instance) would come with the Combat Riding package.
TelinArtho 02-02-07, 11:37 AM	I believe you can pick any 6 tricks you want for your animal. Where does it say that? The Rules of Gladius just say that purchased animals are "fully trained" -- it's unlikely a guard dog (for instance) would come with the Combat Riding package. Hmm - it appears I misspoke again. Hogarth is correct.
Erithmu 02-02-07, 11:40 AM	@Telin: Actually .... the Griffin figurine would solve a good chunk of those problems: Flight, scent 2/day ... granted it can be killed, but Valkin normally protects his mount well. *shrugs*
TelinArtho 02-02-07, 11:50 AM	That is something I considered - and I have not thrown it out by any means. I'm not sure if I prefer using that - for 10k, or Overseer with a potion of Fly for just the troublesome ones for 750gp... Overseer afterall is a formidable opponent in and of himself (just ask NiQil :) ).
webscav 02-02-07, 11:59 AM	I believe you can pick any 6 tricks you want for your animal. All righty, only last pair of questions then. I could swear that I saw something about animals need to have the combat riding package to wear barding without the Armor Check penalty, and if that is true does that mean that A) no creature with int 1 can wear armor? and B) that if you want your creature to wear armor they have to have the six tricks in the combat riding list? And as fo the other question, feats have a gp cost to change on purchased animals, but what about skill points? The rules say that you can change the skills, but don't list a cost for it.
TelinArtho 02-02-07, 12:01 PM	A) no creature with int 1 can wear armor without incurring a penalty to attacks equal to the ACP B) if you want your creature to wear armor without incurring a penalty to attacks equal to the ACP they have to have the six tricks in the combat riding list. Note that if the armor does not have an ACP (Leather, [Ma] Studded Leather, Mithril Chain Shirt) - there's no penalty anyway.
UserNamer 02-02-07, 01:14 PM	What is the required INT for a creature to use a "at will" or a "x/day" item? Or is possible without INT?
hogarth 02-02-07, 01:28 PM	What is the required INT for a creature to use a "at will" or a "x/day" item? Or is possible without INT? I'd say that any creature can use an innate ability without any problems. However, I think that activating a magic item would (at least) require a Perform trick for a creature of animal intelligence (1 or 2). A creature with 0 intelligence would only be able to activate the very simplest of magic items (like throwing Dust of Sneezing and Choking in the air, say). Of course, you have to consider whether there's a command word that needs to be spoken as well.
Macbrea 02-02-07, 01:53 PM	That statement on wearing armor without ACP to attacks does not apply if the animal expends a feat to learn Proficieny armor. It is always an option if you don't take the combat riding package.
TelinArtho 02-02-07, 01:58 PM	Another valid point - though I don't know that it is entirely worth it unless you have a high HD animal with an Int of 1 that you want to have wear Full Plate...
Hirumajoe 02-02-07, 02:06 PM	Ok, sorry to bring this back up, but I just want to confirm my understanding and clarify one or two things still bugging me. Since Macbrea never came back with any posts regarding Bows not being considered weapons for sunder, I'm assuming he didn't find anything. So the things I take away from the discussions earlier, and the posts by Telin, Macbrea and MWB are the following: 1) A character can let go or hold on to a two handed weapon at the end of the turn as a free action, but can't change that on his opponents turn in reaction to their actions. (From Telin's post). 2) A weapon which at the time of the action cannot physically wielded is considered to be a held object for the purposes of Sunder/Disarm. (From Macbrea's and MWB posts) 3) A weapon derives it bonuses or penalities with regards to Sunder/Disarm with regards to how its being used and who is using it. The exception being light weapons, since they gain no benefits for being wielded two-handed and thus always suffer the -4 penalty. (From Macbrea's quotation of the FAQ) If any of the above is wrong, please correct me. However, I am still confused on bows and ranged weapons in general. Macbrea had pointed out that in the rules that bow require 2 hands to use, but MWB indicated that since in real life, you hold the bow with one hand, you should be considered wielding it and gain the attack roll in the case of sunder (as opposed to the held case) when holding/using it with one hand. I haven't seen any further discussion on that, so I'll assume the elder's (MWB) opinion stands. This leads to my question: In the case of sundering/disarming a ranged/thrown weapon, such as a bow, spear, shuriken, etc, which stat do you use? I would presume strength, however it worked out to be dex in the last fight Valen Sky was in. Thanks.
TheMagister 02-02-07, 02:33 PM	My 2 cp: I have always handled ranged weapons as improvised weapons. Sure, a longbow/crossbow is not a melee weapon, but both types could be used as a club (or as a quarterstaff, in the longbow's case). Longbow/Crossbow vs. Sunder: BaB + Str/Dex (situational) - 4 (improvised/non-prof) + 4 (twohand) ANYTHING can be a melee weapon (well, not a sheet of parchment, but you know what I mean), but not anything is meant to be a melee weapon. That -4 that the PHB mentions on pg. 113 pretty much covers anything that is not a melee weapon that is forced into a situation to be used as a melee weapon. Even a potion bottle is mentioned (the 'broken bottle = dagger' comment). The person wielding the ranged weapon already cannot take an AoO on you (because of the whole non-threatening thing), which is a pretty big penalty in and of itself. The only time you should use the "carried/worn item" section of Sunder is if the object is impossible to use as an improvised weapon (i.e. - something too large to wield, like a storage chest or a table or a giant's sword) or is not being manipulated by the target's appendages (belts, pouches, backpacks, etc.). I mean, technically, you are "carrying" a greatsword even if you are wielding it at the time. You are, after all, the greatsword's transportation. If it's sheathed, though: it's a worn item. If the greatsword is huge and unwieldable, but you're trying to transport it to your expanded half-giant friend, it's a carried item. If it's possible to wield it in melee, then it's an improvised weapon, even if it's nothing but a bag of flour (Dmg: 1+str non-lethal + 5' radius Fort save DC 10 or be choking [consider dazed - can defend but not attack] for 1 round). Nothin' like a bag of flour to the face of a spellcasting wizard. Have you ever breathed flour? Ugh. TM Improvised weapons are one of TT DnD's best friends.
MindWandererB 02-02-07, 02:47 PM	Although I like TM's answer as a house rule, I'm not sure there's adequate support for it in the rules. I'd go with treating it as a one-handed weapon. In addition, although I think it is stupid, the sunder rule just say, "You and the defender make opposed attack rolls with your respective weapons." Since ranged weapons use Dex for their attack rolls, you use Dex on this check. Which makes no sense unless you have Weapon Finesse, but that's what the rules say.
TheMagister 02-02-07, 02:55 PM	Although I like TM's answer as a house rule, I'm not sure there's adequate support for it in the rules. I'd go with treating it as a one-handed weapon. In addition, although I think it is stupid, the sunder rule just say, "You and the defender make opposed attack rolls with your respective weapons." Since ranged weapons use Dex for their attack rolls, you use Dex on this check. Which makes no sense unless you have Weapon Finesse, but that's what the rules say. I'm such a simple Simon. What about my answer could be considered a house rule? The relevant stuff is referenced on pg 113 of the PHB, right? I just figured that it's one of those pages in the book that's stuck together cause noone ever looks there. TM
Hirumajoe 02-02-07, 03:01 PM	Although I like TM's answer as a house rule, I'm not sure there's adequate support for it in the rules. I'd go with treating it as a one-handed weapon. In addition, although I think it is stupid, the sunder rule just say, "You and the defender make opposed attack rolls with your respective weapons." Since ranged weapons use Dex for their attack rolls, you use Dex on this check. Which makes no sense unless you have Weapon Finesse, but that's what the rules say. Actually, ranged weapons use Dex when making a ranged attack. Its not an innate property of the weapon, but an innate property of the action. Its only listed in the combat section, not the equipment section. Since you in principle can use a bow in melee as an improvised weapon, I can only assume this means you are allowed to choose the type of opposed roll with the best modifiers. Which means a spear or a light hammer opposing a sunder attempt also lets the wielder use their dex if thats higher than their strength, since it could be delcared a thrown weapon and use a ranged attack which uses dex. Actually, could a 6 str 18 dex character declare their shortsword as an improvised ranged weapon and use a -4 penalty + 4 Dex = 0 modifier instead of the normal -2 Strength modifier? I believe the above are logical extensions of the above stated ruling. Might be worth investing in a house rule... (And I totally agree the sunder rules are *very* poorly stated. In almost every other instance of an attack roll, its listed a melee roll or a ranged attack roll.) Edit: Btw, you can take AoO's while holding a Bow in one hand, because you could be wearing a gauntlet or spiked gauntlet. Or heck, even with two hands since Armor spikes are considered a martial weapon... Edit 2: If you're allowing a medium sized character to get the benefits of "wielding" a medium Greatsword in one hand, by extension you have to give the benefit to a small character of "wielding" a medium sized Greatsword in two hands. Btw, whats the penalty on attack rolls with a weapon you can't actually make attacks with? Any penalty to applied to wielding a Greatsword in one hand would be a house rule... I think the carrying clause implies carrying things in your hands in addition to things in belt pouches and what not. --- Hrmm. I may be misunderstanding TheMagister's comments on unwieldability...
TheMagister 02-02-07, 04:43 PM	Actually, ranged weapons use Dex when making a ranged attack. Its not an innate property of the weapon, but an innate property of the action. Its only listed in the combat section, not the equipment section. Since you in principle can use a bow in melee as an improvised weapon, I can only assume this means you are allowed to choose the type of opposed roll with the best modifiers. Which means a spear or a light hammer opposing a sunder attempt also lets the wielder use their dex if thats higher than their strength, since it could be delcared a thrown weapon and use a ranged attack which uses dex. Actually, could a 6 str 18 dex character declare their shortsword as an improvised ranged weapon and use a -4 penalty + 4 Dex = 0 modifier instead of the normal -2 Strength modifier? First, anything that I conjecture is most certainly not a "ruling"! I'm just putting forth my opinion on the way the RAW interacts. Second, an improvised weapon is anything that is not a weapon. The only specific instance of using a weapon in an improvised fashion is when a character chooses to deal non-lethal damage with a weapon that deals lethal damage normally. So, as to the 6 Str/18 Dex/shortsword question: unless the character in question has weapon finesse, there's no way that he should be allowed to apply his Dexterity to the opposed roll. I believe the above are logical extensions of the above stated ruling. Might be worth investing in a house rule... (And I totally agree the sunder rules are *very* poorly stated. In almost every other instance of an attack roll, its listed a melee roll or a ranged attack roll.) Edit: Btw, you can take AoO's while holding a Bow in one hand, because you could be wearing a gauntlet or spiked gauntlet. Or heck, even with two hands since Armor spikes are considered a martial weapon... Well, sure you can. But you're not taking AoOs with the ranged weapon, which is what this discussion centers around. ... And a character who wears a regular gauntlet and does not have improved unarmed strike does not threaten the area around him with that gauntlet (he's not considered "armed" by wearing the gauntlet). I only said that to sound smart. ;) Edit 2: If you're allowing a medium sized character to get the benefits of "wielding" a medium Greatsword in one hand, by extension you have to give the benefit to a small character of "wielding" a medium sized Greatsword in two hands. Btw, whats the penalty on attack rolls with a weapon you can't actually make attacks with? Any penalty to applied to wielding a Greatsword in one hand would be a house rule... I think the carrying clause implies carrying things in your hands in addition to things in belt pouches and what not. --- Hrmm. I may be misunderstanding TheMagister's comments on unwieldability... You are surely misunderstanding. If a character cannot wield a weapon at all (due to size incompatibility, physical incapability, etc.), then the weapon is just another object to him. In the case of a medium character holding a huge-sized greatsword (two size categories larger than he is, and thus unwieldable even in two hands), the sword (even if it is actually a weapon) is just an object to the medium-sized character. Understand what I mean?
Hirumajoe 02-02-07, 09:10 PM	First, anything that I conjecture is most certainly not a "ruling"! I'm just putting forth my opinion on the way the RAW interacts. I was actually refering to MWB's point. The ruling that you can use a ranged attack as the opposed attack roll in a sunder situation. The following comments mostly refer to that ruling, the edits were in consideration of your comments. My apologies for being unclear. Second, an improvised weapon is anything that is not a weapon. The only specific instance of using a weapon in an improvised fashion is when a character chooses to deal non-lethal damage with a weapon that deals lethal damage normally. Interesting. Arrows and Bolts are listed as being able to be used as improvised weapons, but I guess they're ammunition, not weapons. So you can never whack someone with a bow as an improvised club if you're out of ammo and other weapons. You might argue that using a weapon in a way that its not intended to be wielded is an improvisation, but you're right that that isn't RAW. I'll have to remember that. So, as to the 6 Str/18 Dex/shortsword question: unless the character in question has weapon finesse, there's no way that he should be allowed to apply his Dexterity to the opposed roll. I still think the above is possible and within raw. Assuming you are allowed to use a ranged attack roll for the opposed sunder attack roll. I quote the thrown weapon section from the Equipment section: Thrown Weapons Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet. As far as I can tell, it is legal to throw a shortsword. Heck, its even legal to throw a Greatsword. They even give you the penalty, -4, and the range increment, 10'. So what prevents you from choosing to use a ranged attack roll instead of a melee attack roll when using a shortsword? How about the clearer case of a dagger, spear, or light hammer, all of which are thrown weapons? I mean if its ok for a projectile weapon to use a ranged attack roll when it isn't even using any ammo, why isn't it good enough for thrown weapons? Well, sure you can. But you're not taking AoOs with the ranged weapon, which is what this discussion centers around. ... And a character who wears a regular gauntlet and does not have improved unarmed strike does not threaten the area around him with that gauntlet (he's not considered "armed" by wearing the gauntlet). I only said that to sound smart. ;) I guess I'm saying the disadvantage you mention is easily overcome (as I found with Valen in his last fight, against an Archer who did have a spiked gauntlet.) You are surely misunderstanding. If a character cannot wield a weapon at all (due to size incompatibility, physical incapability, etc.), then the weapon is just another object to him. In the case of a medium character holding a huge-sized greatsword (two size categories larger than he is, and thus unwieldable even in two hands), the sword (even if it is actually a weapon) is just an object to the medium-sized character. Understand what I mean? I definitely agree with your above statement. I guess the best clarification on your earlier statement for me, is do you agree (or not) that a medium sized character holding a medium sized Greatsword in only one hand (the other off doing something else) would be considered simply carrying the Greatsword and an opponent would only need to roll 10 + size + Dex to sunder it? Thats more what I wasn't sure of. P.S. I'm not actually saying I'm for any of these rulings, but I'm trying to play devil's advocate and show how far ranging the ramifications of allowing ranged attack rolls in an opposed sunder roll go.
TheMagister 02-03-07, 07:56 AM	I was actually refering to MWB's point. The ruling that you can use a ranged attack as the opposed attack roll in a sunder situation. The following comments mostly refer to that ruling, the edits were in consideration of your comments. My apologies for being unclear. Ah. I understand now. Interesting. Arrows and Bolts are listed as being able to be used as improvised weapons, but I guess they're ammunition, not weapons. So you can never whack someone with a bow as an improvised club if you're out of ammo and other weapons. You might argue that using a weapon in a way that its not intended to be wielded is an improvisation, but you're right that that isn't RAW. I'll have to remember that. Now on this one I don't get what you're trying to say. 1) Arrows and Bolts are listed as being comparable to daggers (IIRC) if used as an improvised stabbing weapon. Yes. But they're ammunition and not weapons. Why does that matter? Everything is an object for the purposes of this discussion, unless it's been classified as a wieldable weapon already. And the only reason that that matters is because it saves the DM the trouble of assigning a damage value to the object (because the RAW already gives one). 2) A character cannot use a bow as an improvised weapon if he's out of ammo, or if he has any other weapons at his disposal. Wait. What? Why would it matter whether or not he's out of ammo? OH!! Because an ammo-less archer cannot actually attack at range with his bow! I see the point you're making (and happen to agree with it). A sunder attempt is a melee situation and should be resolved as a melee situation. If the weapon you're trying to sunder is a ranged weapon, then it only stands to reason that it'd be harder for the victim to make use of it in melee (hence the -4 non-prof/improv penalty). 3) You might argue that using a weapon in a way that it's not intended to be wielded is an improvisation, but you're right that that isn't RAW. I'll have to remember that. I...I think that I actually did argue that. If you slap a skeleton with the flat of your greatsword blade because you need to an impromptu bludgeon, then you're not using the greatsword in the way that it's intended to be wielded. The DM should assign a -4 to that attack roll. How isn't that a RAW ruling? The greatsword ceases to be a sharp sword in that instance, and becomes an improvised steel club. If I were DMing, I'd even change the damage to 1d8 to drop the dice one size category (just like arrows deal 1d3 when used as daggers). I still think the above is possible and within raw. Which "above"? Seriously, I'm not being sarcastic! We've processed a lot of information. Assuming you are allowed to use a ranged attack roll for the opposed sunder attack roll. I quote the thrown weapon section from the Equipment section: Thrown Weapons Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet. As far as I can tell, it is legal to throw a shortsword. Heck, its even legal to throw a Greatsword. They even give you the penalty, -4, and the range increment, 10'. So what prevents you from choosing to use a ranged attack roll instead of a melee attack roll when using a shortsword? How about the clearer case of a dagger, spear, or light hammer, all of which are thrown weapons? I mean if its ok for a projectile weapon to use a ranged attack roll when it isn't even using any ammo, why isn't it good enough for thrown weapons? I would agree with you when I say that a sunder-defender should be forced to use the melee equation when calculating his opposed attack roll vs. a sunder attack. I guess I'm saying the disadvantage you mention is easily overcome (as I found with Valen in his last fight, against an Archer who did have a spiked gauntlet.) Well, it's kinda easily overcome. The non-armor-wearing people out there don't get armor spikes. Also, the non-melee characters out there don't usually have decent strength or weapon finesse, so they'll probably miss on the AoO anyway. Also, I don't think that getting hit with an AoO stops a sunder attempt cold the way it stops a grapple. It's actually a rather minor disadvantage. Who wouldn't sunder a wizard scroll because the wizard might punch him with his spiked gauntlet? OOoooo....scary. =) I definitely agree with your above statement. I guess the best clarification on your earlier statement for me, is do you agree (or not) that a medium sized character holding a medium sized Greatsword in only one hand (the other off doing something else) would be considered simply carrying the Greatsword and an opponent would only need to roll 10 + size + Dex to sunder it? Thats more what I wasn't sure of. If he can't wield the weapon in one hand, then it becomes a carried object. True, it is a weapon, but it's no more useful to the character than it would be if it was sheathed on his back. He can't wield it so as to make an opposed attack roll, so the sundering character would only have to hit its AC as an object (10 + 0(size) + defender's dex = pretty easy, especially with improved sunder!). Thought about in the context of deflect arrows, this becomes quite the quandary for some builds. Example character with deflect arrows and a 2-handed weapon: Tessero Valis. 1) RAW, you need one hand free (holding nothing) to utilize deflect arrows. 2) I can declare that Tessero remove a hand from his glaive as a free action ON HIS TURN ONLY. Normally, I'd do this at the end of his turn so as to enable the use of Deflect Arrows. 3) A glaive is a medium weapon. Tessero is a medium character. If Tessero takes a hand off of the glaive, he ceases to be classified as "wielding" the weapon. 4) Tessero loses his 10' reach and any benefits conferred by the glaive, and only threatens the normal 5' area (because of his armor spikes). The glaive becomes a carried object with an AC of 11 (10 + size + Tessero's Dex). BUT he can deflect arrows. 5) At the beginning of his turn, I can declare that Tessero replace a hand on his glaive. He immediately regains full use of the weapon and can make an opposed attack roll with it. All of that is fine and dandy. But what if I declare that Tessero wants to use the medium object in his hand as an improvised weapon? Wow. Okay, I see the dichotomy more clearly now. My common DM sense says "no", but I'll be darned if I can cite why. Edit: Possibly because the object in his hand has special rules tied to it. It is a "medium-sized weapon object", and the size of the "weapon object" prohibits the "weapon object" from being wielded by a creature of the same size unless the creature uses two hands. Looked at in that context, it is impossible to wield a medium weapon object in one hand as an improvised weapon because the weapon rules say so. I would go so afar as to say that such a ruling would hold for any medium-sized weapon object (like a chest or a table). Just because you're strong enough to hold the object in one hand doesn't mean you can overcome the cumbersome-ness of it enough to use it effectively as a weapon, improvised or not. That works for me. P.S. I'm not actually saying I'm for any of these rulings, but I'm trying to play devil's advocate and show how far ranging the ramifications of allowing ranged attack rolls in an opposed sunder roll go. S'okay. This issue could do with a little exploring.
Vathelokai 02-03-07, 12:39 PM	Okay looking for some brainstorm ideas to finish the spending on Sir Valkin - who has just reached frozen status. Some things to keep in mind: Sir Valkin rarely has a hand free - so scrolls, potions, etc are deliberately kept to a minimum. Total gold available ~11k. Flying opponents, to me, are clearly the deadliest he has a problem with. I've considered picking up a potion of Fly to be drunk by Overseer as a solution however. I don't have enough to pick up an item with 3/day fly - but the situation doesn't come up all that often anyway. The last category of opponent that Sir Valkin had trouble with was a super-hider. With his low spot/listen, he's at the mercy of someone with a +30 hide even if that someone is sniping. I'm not sure how to best tackle this - though a +10 spot item might be a reasonable route to take... Anyway - I don't want to put too much here and cut down the suggestions I get - so have fun. Valkin Custom items seems the best way to deal with flyiers. A 1/day fly item (either boots or horseshoes) is around 6000gp. (or 9000 to combine them to the horsehoes of speed). And if they become more needed later you can upgrade them to the 3/day version. The bronze griffon is a definite option, as Rith stated. Sauro's Kraknol uses one to great effect and might be able to clarify. The easy/cheasy way to deal with the super hiders is to get an ally with blindsense and a wand of glitterdust. The no save -20 to hide beats the +10 spot item. Barring that you can either get get allies (blindsense, tremorsense, more spot checks per round), custom items (necklace of fireballs glitterdusts), or +10 skill items (still low odds against a focused build). Personally I don't think any of them work well individually. Featylec's near impossible to spot; Auburn only managed it by getting lucky with some summoned spiders and a glitterdust spell. Even then he almost got away before the 15 dmg per round from magic missiles took him out.
SauroGrenom 02-03-07, 02:52 PM	Okay looking for some brainstorm ideas to finish the spending on Sir Valkin - who has just reached frozen status. Some things to keep in mind: Sir Valkin rarely has a hand free - so scrolls, potions, etc are deliberately kept to a minimum. Total gold available ~11k. Areas where I feel he has trouble: 1. Flying magic users - although not nearly the problem they once were, he still has trouble with them due to his poor touch AC. I'm reluctant to add a Ring of Protection, since his situational Protection from Evil is vastly more useful to him. Keeping a potion of Shield of Faith on hand is not out of the question (and the only reason he doesn't have one currently is because he just used one). 2. Flying archers. These are much less of a problem with Sir Valkin's reasonable AC. I would like to see his AC at a much higher level, and can achieve that reasonable with enhancements to his armor and shield to provide a total boost of +3. That said - that would put him up to 26 AC (30 with Cover from Overseer). Flying opponents, to me, are clearly the deadliest he has a problem with. I've considered picking up a potion of Fly to be drunk by Overseer as a solution however. I don't have enough to pick up an item with 3/day fly - but the situation doesn't come up all that often anyway. The last category of opponent that Sir Valkin had trouble with was a super-hider. With his low spot/listen, he's at the mercy of someone with a +30 hide even if that someone is sniping. I'm not sure how to best tackle this - though a +10 spot item might be a reasonable route to take... Anyway - I don't want to put too much here and cut down the suggestions I get - so have fun.FYI Kracknol has a real griffon, not a figurine one. A flying mount is useful. Or you can get flying on your mount with some kind of custom item. A custom flying item is useful. To defeat hiding, I suggest tattoo of touch sight. At 750gp each, it's an expensive expendable, but it doesn't require you use a hand. And it's the equivalent to blindsense 60' on your main character. One item that I've considered for my ECL10 melee character Kracknol is the necklace of fireballs. When the melee character tosses a fireball it makes for an unpleasant surprise for invisible or hiding or flying ranged attackers. Area attacks also help against pet builds. But the item is effectively an expensive fireball potion.
Zevox 02-03-07, 04:46 PM	To defeat hiding, I suggest tattoo of touch sight. At 750gp each, it's an expensive expendable, but it doesn't require you use a hand. And it's the equivalent to blindsense 60' on your main character. Actually, since Touchsight is a personal range power (honestly, except for offensive ones, it seems theres not many that aren't...), it would cost 1,500 gp. Kind of a hefty cost to beat a rare type of character if you ask me. One item that I've considered for my ECL10 melee character Kracknol is the necklace of fireballs. When the melee character tosses a fireball it makes for an unpleasant surprise for invisible or hiding or flying ranged attackers. Heh, not all hiders will be bothered by that though. Those with Rogue or Monk levels will have evasion, and almost surely a high reflex save - my Featylec for instance would only fail the save against those on a natural 1. And since a lot of flying ranged attackers are wizards, you'll probably run into resist energy there. So yeah, I doubt that'd be a very effective item personally - would probably be useful against pet builds, but thats about it. Zevox
NiQil 02-03-07, 05:12 PM	@ Telin: Another option to look at to solve some of your weaknesses with the build would be to look at the alternate paladin mounts in the DMG, such as a pegasus. You could then use the remaining 11k in gp to outfit the new mount.
Vathelokai 02-03-07, 05:57 PM	Question: How flexible is the exotic weapon proficiency feat? Literal interpretation would indicate that it can only give you proficiency with one of the weapons on the exotic list. Could you take it and get proficiency with an inappropriately sized weapon? Like a small two handed weapon so that you could use it one handed? Or for throwing swords? Choose a type of exotic weapon. You understand how to use that type of exotic weapon in combat.
TheMagister 02-03-07, 06:15 PM	Could you take it and get proficiency with an inappropriately sized weapon? Like a small two handed weapon so that you could use it one handed? Or for throwing swords? Not to be totally sarcastic, but this made me laugh. You mean like taking EWP: bastard sword or waraxe? Both are weapons that are too large to use in one hand without special training. :rofl: It just seems like a silly question, Vath. You've got to forgive me. Of course I could be just totally dense and be missing the entire point of your post, too... Open mouth, insert foot. {heh} TM
Vathelokai 02-03-07, 06:21 PM	I was thinking along the lines of having a half-giant taking proficiency with a medium sized polearm so that they could use it one handed but still have reach, without that pesky -4 for an inappropriately sized weapon. Or possibly exotic weapon 'medium spiked chains' for said half-giant; weild them 2weapon style with only a couple negative modifiers instead of a ton. Basicly what I'm after is a way to weild 2 reach weapons at once, that arn't whips.
Zevox 02-03-07, 06:47 PM	I was thinking along the lines of having a half-giant taking proficiency with a medium sized polearm so that they could use it one handed but still have reach, without that pesky -4 for an inappropriately sized weapon. Or possibly exotic weapon 'medium spiked chains' for said half-giant; weild them 2weapon style with only a couple negative modifiers instead of a ton. Basicly what I'm after is a way to weild 2 reach weapons at once, that arn't whips. May I suggest taking a look at the Kusari-gama from the DMG's Asian Weapons (page 145)? Its basically an exotic light weapon version of a spiked chain. Just does 1d6 damage with a x2 crit multiplier, but it should do what you want with no negative modifiers (beyond the normal TWF penalties anyway). Zevox
Etiquette_Gnome 02-03-07, 07:06 PM	Hmm, I'm liking how my psion and maybe even my wizard are turning out. I've given up hope for my current monk and sniper (various reasons). I'm also tempted to make/play around with several other builds. If you guys could tell me if any of these builds would be less than ideal to mess with, either because of little-mentioned rules that make such builds pointless or if the concept has been done to death (and similar reasons). * Charger - An exceedingly fast (65' non-mounted speed), alpha strike style melee character. Because of the common issues of charging with obstacles, it would have Psionic Charge to take a free 90 degree turn along a charge line. * Monk - A tweaked form of my old grapple build (not as specialized), with the added bonus of being exceedingly hard to affect with magic (saves of +12/+9/+10), and is more ranged capable (rapid shot feat). * Ranger warmonger - Archer specialist, along with high end focus on using Handle Animal allies to their utmost; whether it be the perk of having a light warhorse, or having half a dozen trained and armored donkies. * Sniper - A further tweaked version from my original, actually starting with a higher Hide than Mort had at 3rd level, and is capable of overcoming the issues of scent. * Sunderer/Tripper - Basically a kusari-gama specialist with improved trip/sunder for all sorts of pain melee pain. Once he gets enough money, he would pay for an adamantine kusari-gama and simply annhilate any equipment he wants.
Zevox 02-03-07, 08:43 PM	I'm looking for a questlord for Annalina Vale for next week. I'd like her to miniquest to gain a leadership cohort - EL 6 out-of-cycle. I've got some plans for the RP that I'll PM to anyone interested. If no one wants to run it though, I can of course take a random QL. Zevox
Vathelokai 02-03-07, 10:35 PM	Hmm, I'm liking how my psion and maybe even my wizard are turning out. I've given up hope for my current monk and sniper (various reasons). I'm also tempted to make/play around with several other builds. If you guys could tell me if any of these builds would be less than ideal to mess with, either because of little-mentioned rules that make such builds pointless or if the concept has been done to death (and similar reasons). * Charger - An exceedingly fast (65' non-mounted speed), alpha strike style melee character. Because of the common issues of charging with obstacles, it would have Psionic Charge to take a free 90 degree turn along a charge line.Also look into the fleet of foot feat (divine section of srd). It allows you to make the 90 degree turn without psionics, but you have to be in light armor. This build would work alright at low levels but getting flight later on is a necessity. * Monk - A tweaked form of my old grapple build (not as specialized), with the added bonus of being exceedingly hard to affect with magic (saves of +12/+9/+10), and is more ranged capable (rapid shot feat). This sort of build has a pretty good record. See Maelosh the Breaker and Rubicanti for good examples. * Ranger warmonger - Archer specialist, along with high end focus on using Handle Animal allies to their utmost; whether it be the perk of having a light warhorse, or having half a dozen trained and armored donkies.Has appeared in various forms. Not too familar with the 'zoo keeper' type characters, but I hear flocks of eagles work fairly well. Zax Kar Nissex is trying the hoard strategy with vermin. * Sniper - A further tweaked version from my original, actually starting with a higher Hide than Mort had at 3rd level, and is capable of overcoming the issues of scent. Snipers are a pain to run, but they are interesting. If you have an idea on how to take it further than anyone else has I'd like to see it. * Sunderer/Tripper - Basically a kusari-gama specialist with improved trip/sunder for all sorts of pain melee pain. Once he gets enough money, he would pay for an adamantine kusari-gama and simply annhilate any equipment he wants.Similar to the charger, this guy can do really well except for when he can't reach the opponent. I ran a fight once that had this kind of build decimate the opposition with an "enlarge/fly/reach-> trip without retaliation" combo. Ways to avoid archery while you get in close is a must.
Vathelokai 02-03-07, 10:49 PM	Was looking at the asian weapons, etc. in the DMG and was wondering... How much of those campaign specific weapons are allowed? Obviously asian weapons are. I've heard that reniassance weapons are allowed. I asked about future weapons 6 months ago and was told they are not allowed. Is there a list somewhere? I notice that the modern and future weapons have no 'gp' value. Would that be the decider?
Etiquette_Gnome 02-03-07, 11:03 PM	The musket and pistol are allowed, but you need to have five ranks in Knowledge (engineering) and Craft (firearms), and they have a base Craft DC 20; which is important, since you can't buy them, only craft. They also count as exotic weapons for proficiency purposes. I don't know about the bomb thing, but I suspect that's too expensive for the benefit. Honestly, the firearms aren't really worth it for the investment for any true ranged character. Longbows are far and away the superior choice for any real ranged fighter. Now, I have had some success with the gun with my wizard, but that's due my use of the True Strike spell; which even then I only use as an opener. As for the future weapons, they are a house-rule item to begin with, and allowing plasma ejectors in a standard DnD game just doesn't work. On top of that, they are muchly overpowered for a standard game.
Zevox 02-03-07, 11:39 PM	Was looking at the asian weapons, etc. in the DMG and was wondering... How much of those campaign specific weapons are allowed? Obviously asian weapons are. I've heard that reniassance weapons are allowed. I asked about future weapons 6 months ago and was told they are not allowed. Is there a list somewhere? I notice that the modern and future weapons have no 'gp' value. Would that be the decider? Only the Asian weapons and Renaissance are allowed. The rule about the Asian ones can be found here (Marketplace of Gladius section), and as Ettiquette_Gnome noted, Renaissance ones can only be crafted via Knowledge (Architecture & Engeneering) and Craft (Firearms) (this is found under the skills section of the rules). As you say, modern/future ones aren't allowed. Aside from obvious flavor reasons, the lack of gold cost would surely be an issue, as would the balance issue EG mentioned. Zevox
Etiquette_Gnome 02-04-07, 12:35 AM	I might bring up my theories for the anti-scent sniper, but in retrospect it would still only work at the vaguely low levels. Against psions with Touchsight, he'd be screwed, as would any kind of monster/character with a form of blindsight that's non-scent based. I'm tempted to consider just working on getting credits and making a ghost, which would solve about all my problems in that regard.
Vathelokai 02-04-07, 12:37 AM	I might bring up my theories for the anti-scent sniper, but in retrospect it would still only work at the vaguely low levels. Against psions with Touchsight, he'd be screwed, as would any kind of monster/character with a form of blindsight that's non-scent based. I'm tempted to consider just working on getting credits and making a ghost, which would solve about all my problems in that regard. Shadows have a slightly lower ECL and have most of the benefits. Not nearly so many cool powers, though.
Etiquette_Gnome 02-04-07, 12:47 AM	I don't think I would even bother with the shadow, since he has a nul value on Strength, which means I couldn't have any equipment. Besides, I don't think it would even be worth the trouble to work for the credits to spend on getting either the shadow or the ghost character.
Vathelokai 02-04-07, 12:57 AM	After putting some thought to it, I've come up with two 2weapon fighting builds I like. Both are based on 2WF and weapon finesse... Whirling death: exotic weapon (kusir-gama; i.e. one handed spiked chain), power attack, improved trip Crit master: exotic weapon (double bladed sword), weapon focus, improved crit, power crit Appart from that, I need to decide how 'gish' to make this character. The feats can be managed by combinations of psiwar and fighter; more figher gets more feats and weapon specialization, whereas more psiwar gets the craft psionic weapons feat. Considered a level of cleric for buffs. Even considered a lv of barbarian for rage and hp at first lv. Also considering the phrenic template for spell resistance and extra backup power. As for race, human seems the most fitting but half-giant would work well for the whirling death build. Any thoughts or comments? I don't think I've seen the crit master thing done before, though there are a number of tripper builds around.
Zevox 02-04-07, 01:20 AM	Hm... well, I expect the "whirling death" version would be better - double reach weapons that can strike up close too would be deadly, especially if you're going Psychic Warrior and can thus get Expansion (attacks at 5-20' with trip - ouch, it'll be tough to melee that). To be honest, I'm kind of jealous I didn't come up with that idea when making Annalina. Something to consider is that double-bladed swords can't be finessed, being neither light nor rapiers, spiked chains, or whips. If you're depending on that for that character too, it might not be too viable. For levels, I'd say try to end up with at least 4 of fighter - Weapon Specialization will help all the more with all the attacks a two-weapon fighter gets. Beyond that though I don't think it would be worth it - certainly 12 levels for Greater Weapon Specialization is steep, and 8 for Greater Focus doesn't seem worth it. I don't know about Barbarian if you're going for a finesse warrior though, since strength doesn't contribute to attacks. As for Cleric... eh, personally, I wouldn't, if only because dips into it (particularly with the magic domain) is so clichè around here, but it would be beneficial I suppose. For race, I'd probably go with Human or Wood Elf. Humans are always good, and Wood Elf comes with +2 strength and dexterity if you can handle the con and int hit (though there is multiclassing issues with that one). Half-Giant... well, personally, I don't think their LA is worth it if you're not grappling, and the dexterity loss seems counterintuitive if you're going finesse, but of course its your opinion that matters on that, not mine. Little note on feats, you might want to look into Improved Disarm if you go with the whirling death version - I know light weapons aren't great for that, but the feat's bonus cancels that loss out, the Kusari-Gamas themselves give +2 to the checks, and being able to deprive enemies of their attack method as well as trip them would be quite the boon against everyone but primary casters/manifesters. Zevox
Erithmu 02-04-07, 01:40 AM	One thing with the crit master build is probably that improved Crit requires 8 BAB, so it doesn't get to see much action. The straight fighter builds all take it roughly at 9th anyways. I don't think I would 'gish' too much, although I think that a good Psi war/fighter mix would be about right. (12 ftr/8psi war looks like a good breakpoint for psi war, and still gives the ability to take G. Weapon Spec at ftr 12). I don't think craft psi arms and armor would be all that useful with a lesser amount of psi war, you can only make +2 weapons, and your power list is limited in what you can enchant your gear with in terms of special abilities. I agree w/ Zevox in the sense that the whirling version would be better. In watching Farig, half the time she is unlocking her gauntlet in the first round due to so many fliers and speedy folks. Or maybe that is just because she is running into Torel's flying bat. For race I agree with the wood elf call. if you are going to be tripping people take combat reflexes, get an AoO for standing, and another AoO when they try to move closer. Half-giant is nice with the size increase on the trip bonus, but the -dex is going to hurt. Another dip to consider would be 2 levels of ranger for some skills and TWF for free, although it does depend on what armor you are going to be wearing. I suspect that maybe not, but you are going to have high dex and a mithril breastplate is considered light. (shrugs)
Etiquette_Gnome 02-04-07, 01:45 AM	blargh
NiQil 02-04-07, 02:36 AM	@ Vath: One thing to think about with your whirling death build... Improved Trip and Weapon Finesse are mutually exclusive. If you finesse the character, in general you will be a poor tripper since tripping uses your Str mod for trip attacks. Conversely, if you go for Tripping, then you will want high Str, making Finesse a waste. If you want to Finesse with TWF, then I might suggest disarms rather than trips, since disarms only required opposed attack rolls, meaning that finesse can be used just fine with disarms.
TheMagister 02-04-07, 07:31 AM	Another thing to note with the whirling death build: You can't power attack with Kusari Gamas (light weapons). (I understand that you need PA for Imp. Sunder, though). An inexpensive (but credit intensive) sunder enchantment is the Shatterspike's abilities moved onto your melee weapon of choice (see one of Cat's characters for the details...I forget which one). Two Shatterspike Kusari-gamas would be bad. Two adamantine Shatterspike Kusari's would be REALLY REALLY BAD (but hella expensive). Human Ftr2/Psywar8 offers the most feats you can possibly get out of a 10 level build ('Rith is right). Ftr4/Psywar6 isn't worth it because of no access to third level Psiwar powers, the bulk of which deal with the psiwar's weapon [Wpn of Energy, Vampiric Blade, etc.] and would deal more DoT than Wpn Specialization [1d6 > flat +2]. Wpn Focus is your friend. Sunder and Disarm are your best non-damage attack options. Combat Reflexes and Stand Still are FANTASTIC together for an AoO/reach build (I built a half-giant Knight [PHBII]...he was fun). Just some thoughts.
hogarth 02-04-07, 08:56 AM	Human Ftr2/Psywar8 offers the most feats you can possibly get out of a 10 level build. A human Ftr2/Mnk2/Psywar2/Rngr2/Brb (Wolf Totem) 2 gets more feats (as long as you're not too fussy about what they are). Do I win a cookie? :cookie:
Erithmu 02-04-07, 09:22 AM	A human Ftr2/Mnk2/Psywar2/Rngr2/Brb (Wolf Totem) 2 gets more feats (as long as you're not too fussy about what they are). Do I win a cookie? :cookie:Depends ... I have cookie here if you explain why this option is better for Vath as a TWF over say the ftr2/psiwar8 build. The original question is not about number of feats but how to build a TWF based off some basic assumptions of weapon choices and styles. Human ftr 2/PW 8 (Assuming Ftr 2/PW 1 start) H EWP: KGama 1 comp Exp F1 Imp Trip F2 TWF 3 Com reflexes PW1 PA PW2 Imp sunder 6 Standstill PW5 Imp TWF 9 - Free PW8 - Free 2 more feats which work to with with options to go for Focus feats such as Psi weapon, G. Psi weapon, maybe Deep impact if you want to carry a 2H weapon as back up for something like anti DR. Speed of thought for bonus movement You are approaching some MAD issues needing 13 in str,int,wis,and 15 in dex by ECL7(Psi war 5) for ITWF. I would probably end up running high str and just enough dex to keep the TWF feats comming in (13 base + 6 item = 19) If you want some AC from dex then bump to a 14, or start at 14 and take wood elf, although you lose a feat. Other options would be to bump Imp sunder back a few levels as tripping should be pretty effective. The other option would be to start as PW 3 (1 less feat) and you can expand right off w/ your pp. Standstill also need some damage boost to really work. You probably want to be having about +3 or 4 to your primary weapon so that they don't have a good chance of making that save. It will have to scale up as you go too, but Deep Crystal, or Psi weapon can help with that.
TheMagister 02-04-07, 09:58 AM	Well, the problems with that build are manifold: 1) Hard to trip without decent strength/size bonuses (you're better off moving Imp. Sunder up to earlier, or replacing Imp. Trip with Imp Disarm) 2) By the time it gets Stand Still, a lot of characters'll be able to make those reflex saves. 3) MAD issues By semi-dumping Str and focusing on Dex/Wis, you get this: Str 14, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 15, Cha 9 = 36 pts @ lvl 3 -by level 10- Str 14, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 9 before racial/enh Feats: EWP: Kusari [human] Comb Exp [1HD] Imp. Disarm [Ftr1] TWF [Ftr2] Standstill [3HD] Comb. Ref [Psywar1] Pwr Att [Psywar2] Imp Sund [6HD] Imp TWF [PW5] - GO TO WARMIND? Reckless Offense? [9HD] -OR- EWP: Kusari [human] PA [1HD] Imp Sunder [Ftr1] TWF [Ftr2] Standstill [3HD] Comb. Ref [Psywar1] Speed of Thought [Psywar2] Psionic Charge [6HD] Imp TWF [PW5] Wpn Focus (kusari) [9HD] Reckless Offense [Psywar8] Psywar Powers: Three 1st: Expansion, Off Prescience, Vigor Two 2nd: Psionic Lion's Charge, Animal Affinity WarMind Powers: Three 1st: Off Precog, Force Screen, Grip of Iron Three 1st: Vigor, Expansion, Off Precog Three 2nd: Psionic Lion's Charge, Dissolving Weapon, Animal Affinity Two 3rd: Vampiric Blade, Greater Concealing Amorpha Powerstones to backpack around: Weapon of Energy, Steadfast Perception, Strength of my Enemy!!, Energy Adaptation (specified), Skate, Synesthete, etc. Of course the powers/powerstone selection is completely up to the player...these are just suggestions. Either Way: +8/+3 (primary) and +8/+3 secondary [BAB only] [+2 Reckless w/ Warmind plus +1 Chains, or addl +1 WF w/Psywar] (Warmind Route) Fort +10, Ref +4, Will +2 (Psywar Route) Fort +9, Ref +2, Will +2 (Warmind Route) 7+9=16 base pp (Psywar Route) 19 base pp (better powers, better Wis bonus) It could be done...and done well, I think. Psionic Lion's Charge + Strength of my Enemy + Psionic Charge + Vampiric Blade = owieowieowieowie
hogarth 02-04-07, 10:03 AM	Depends ... I have cookie here if you explain why this option is better for Vath as a TWF over say the ftr2/psiwar8 build. I just raised an eyebrow at the statement "most feats you can possibly get". Powerstones to backpack around: Weapon of Energy, Steadfast Perception, Strength of my Enemy!!, Energy Adaptation (specified), Skate, Synesthete, etc. Note that Strength of my Enemy is an enhancement bonus, so it doesn't stack with Gauntlets/Belts of strength.
TheMagister 02-04-07, 10:05 AM	Who needs to spend money when you can get the goods for FREE?
Zevox 02-04-07, 11:01 AM	By semi-dumping Str and focusing on Dex/Wis, you get this: Str 14, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 15, Cha 9 = 36 pts @ lvl 3 -by level 10- Str 14, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 9 before racial/enh Okay, I've gotta ask - why the 16 Con on a finesse character? Many warriors around here get by with just 14 with no problem, and since you're looking at d10 and d8 HD its not like hes inherently short on hp. And I'd tend to think that one point you put in charisma could be much more useful putting the int at 14 for more skill points. Hmm... presuming human, I'd probably go with: Str 14, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 8 -- By 10 -- Str 14 (16 belt), Dex 17 (19/20 gloves), Con 14, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 8 -- By 20 -- Str 14 (+belt), Dex 20 (+gloves), Con 14, Int 14, Wis 16 (+periapt), Cha 8 Now, if you wanted to dump a point each from Strength and Intelligence and just boost strength later with a point at 4th level and a belt of giant strength, you could bump that wisdom to start at 16, but with only 1 PsyWar level at level 3 thats probably not worth it. Actually, if you spent the 5 credits on a belt of giant strength +2 and made sure to get that and some gloves of dex early on, you could be in pretty darn good shape with Str 16 and Dex 18. Now, how about feats... personally, I wouldn't go with PA/Improved Sunder when Improved Disarm (which prerequisites the same thing as Improved Trip) does more or less the same thing (albeit less permanently, but you needn't spend tons of cash on twin adamantine weapons, and the weapons themselves give +2 to the checks, plus with all the AoOs you could get with this thing expanded and standstill to boot it should be easy to keep your enemy disoriented just using those feats anyway). Thats just me though. Also its well worth noting that with Ftr 2/PsyWar 8 you won't have enough bab by PsyWar 5 to get Improved TWF, so that has to get relegated to your 9th level feat. (Oh, and I also find it amusing that both TM and Rith forgot Weapon Finesse in their feats list :P .) So, I'd probably go: EWP (Kusari-Gama) [Human] Comb Exp [1st] Two-Weapon Fighting [Ftr 1] Improved Trip [Ftr 2] Weapon Finesse [PsyWar 1] Standstill [3rd] Combat Reflexes [PsyWar 2] Improved Disarm [6th] Psionic Weapon/Speed of Though/Run? [PsyWar 5] Improved TWF [9th] Psionic Meditation/Psionic Charge/Fleet of Foot? [PsyWar 8] Then perhaps at that point take your 11th and 12th levels as fighter, picking up at 12th level both Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, then finish up with Psychic Warrior. You wind up at level 20 with +16 bab (four attacks primary hand, three off-hand with Greater TWF), one 6th level power and 3 each of 1st-5th, and a fair number of power points, plus probably more feats than you can figure out what to do with. So yeah, Jesus this thing has a lot of potential (and a lot of potential routes it could go). I'll look forward to seeing what Vath uses :) . Zevox
Vathelokai 02-04-07, 11:14 AM	I had generally decided agianst sunder, since you can buy that feat (see psionic weapons), which was why I was considering the 'create psionic weapons' feat. The standstill expansion stuff is interesting. Definitely leaning toward human over wood elf. Still need to talk myself out of the phrenic template; 2 LA is really high, especially for a fighter build. Thanks for all the input! Making characters by commitee is a bit more fun than I thought.
Magnificate 02-04-07, 01:09 PM	Ave! You might not remember me, in fact I’m pretty sure you do not, but I was once (summer 2004) a gladiator on Core Coliseum. I’ve decided to rejoin. However Gladius has changed quite a bit since then and my own min-max skills have diminished. Therefore I have few questions: 1. How is designing a gladiator different from designing a PC for standard adventure? On which areas should I focus? 2. What are recent, common tactics/strategies on Gladius? Any particular dangers I should be aware of?
Etiquette_Gnome 02-04-07, 01:17 PM	Can a spell with a duration in days be cast before the start of a 3FC so as to not cost any immediate resources. For example, say a 5th level cleric has Deeper Darkness (1 day per caster level). Can it be assumed that he has an item with Deeper Darkness already cast on it when he starts, having cast it the day prior, without it eating into his 3rd level spell slots for the cycle?
Vathelokai 02-04-07, 01:39 PM	Ave! You might not remember me, in fact I’m pretty sure you do not, but I was once (summer 2004) a gladiator on Core Coliseum. I’ve decided to rejoin. However Gladius has changed quite a bit since then and my own min-max skills have diminished. Therefore I have few questions: 1. How is designing a gladiator different from designing a PC for standard adventure? On which areas should I focus? 2. What are recent, common tactics/strategies on Gladius? Any particular dangers I should be aware of? Check out our newly re-written Quick start guide to see the current state of affairs. It should have most of the info you're looking for. As for strategies/tactics, there are some common things to look out for; the +30 hide sniper, the +20 AC tanks, the DC20+ casters, but most of the characters are a bit more rounded than that. Check over fight of the week thread and see how things are going. Any build/tactic that is fairly straightforward gets discussed there. Welcome to the fray!
Vathelokai 02-04-07, 01:40 PM	Can a spell with a duration in days be cast before the start of a 3FC so as to not cost any immediate resources. For example, say a 5th level cleric has Deeper Darkness (1 day per caster level). Can it be assumed that he has an item with Deeper Darkness already cast on it when he starts, having cast it the day prior, without it eating into his 3rd level spell slots for the cycle? I would assume so, but it isn't covered in the rules anywhere that I can find.
TheMagister 02-04-07, 02:03 PM	EWP (Kusari-Gama) [Human] Comb Exp [1st] Two-Weapon Fighting [Ftr 1] Improved Trip [Ftr 2] Weapon Finesse [PsyWar 1] Standstill [3rd] Combat Reflexes [PsyWar 2] Improved Disarm [6th] Psionic Weapon/Speed of Though/Run? [PsyWar 5] Improved TWF [9th] Psionic Meditation/Psionic Charge/Fleet of Foot? [PsyWar 8] So yeah, Jesus this thing has a lot of potential (and a lot of potential routes it could go). I'll look forward to seeing what Vath uses :) . Zevox I don't like Improved Trip for this guy...it just doesn't jive with his style. You might have a point on the disarm > sunder thing, and Vath confirms the change b/c of the psionic enhancement being available. Weapon Finesse is a MUST! I mentioned it earlier and totally forgot about it in the build. IF you take out Imp Trip and sub in Imp Disarm, and use Wpn Focus as the [6HD] feat, you gain that all-important +1 to hit with all your attacks. That is important b/c it compensates for when you expand and lose 2 Dex. DEFINITELY do whatever it takes to keep Psionic Charge in the build. The Psionic Lion's Charge + GTWF has to make it into the build. TM
MindWandererB 02-04-07, 02:33 PM	Can a spell with a duration in days be cast before the start of a 3FC so as to not cost any immediate resources. For example, say a 5th level cleric has Deeper Darkness (1 day per caster level). Can it be assumed that he has an item with Deeper Darkness already cast on it when he starts, having cast it the day prior, without it eating into his 3rd level spell slots for the cycle?Nope. That day is the last time you can prebuff. Ave! You might not remember me, in fact I’m pretty sure you do not, but I was once (summer 2004) a gladiator on Core Coliseum. I’ve decided to rejoin. However Gladius has changed quite a bit since then and my own min-max skills have diminished. Therefore I have few questions: 1. How is designing a gladiator different from designing a PC for standard adventure? On which areas should I focus? 2. What are recent, common tactics/strategies on Gladius? Any particular dangers I should be aware of?Well, obviously stuff that's effective against multiple enemies (cleave, fireball) is less often useful here. Similarly, stuff that works best against one enemy (save-or-dies, Deflect Arrows) are better than normal. So do things that work against low-HD targets (since everyone has no more HD than their ECL, and often less). Countermeasures are critical. Not many pack Protection from Arrows anymore (since oil of Magic Weapon is so easy to get), but Protection from Evil for summons is critical at low levels, and as you level more, countermeasures against flying, grappling, invisibility, blindness, and various DRs will also become pretty much mandatory.
Vathelokai 02-04-07, 02:46 PM	I'm pretty sure of the answer, but thought I would check... Can you put a spiked chain/kusuri-gama in an efficient quiver? It's the size and shape of a staff when you hold it up in the air and let it hang. :)
TheMagister 02-04-07, 02:48 PM	I wouldn't think that you could. If you could, I'd make it a move action to retrieve one (it'd be a really expensive sheathe) because it'd coil up at the bottom of the extradimensional space. {shrug} Just my thoughts.
Vathelokai 02-04-07, 04:34 PM	I've had some time when the baby was sleeping to play with it, so here's the rough draft of the whirling death build. I just couldn't talk myself out of the phrenic template; it would be a pain to get her saves higher and that 10+HD spell resistance calls to me. Of course you could ignore that part and just make her a 3rd lv. regular character... Kusari-Gama Gender and Race: Female Phrenic Human Size and Type: Medium Humanoid [psionic] Height and Weight: 5' 8" 160 lbs. Age: 20 (no modifier) Alignment: Chaotic Neutral ECL: 5 (phrenic 2/Fighter 1/Psiwarrior 2) Experience: 10,500/? Attributes STR 14 (+3) [06 pts] [14 Base] DEX 18 (+4) [10 pts] [16 Base, +2 Enhancement] CON 16 (+3) [10 pts] [16 Base] INT 14 (+2) [04 pts] [12 Base, 2 Template] WIS 16 (+3) [06 pts] [14 Base, 2 Template] CHA 12 (+1) [00 pts] [08 Base, 4 Template] Miscellaneous Statistics Hit Points: 28 [3 HD] [10 (Fighter) + (4.5 (Psiwarrior) x 2) + (3 HD x 3 Con)] Armor Class (Normal): 18 [10 Base, 4 Dex, 4 Armor] Armor Class (Touch): 14 [10 Base, 4 Dex] Armor Class (Flat-Footed): 14 [10 Base, 4 Armor] Initiative: +4 [4 Dex] Base Attack Bonus: +2 [1 (Fighter), 1 (Psiwarrior)] Grapple: +4 [2 BAB, 2 Str] Speed (Land): 30 ft [30 Base] Weight Carried: 9 lbs, light encumbrance [0-?? (Light), ??-?? (Medium), ??-?? (Heavy)] Spell/Power Resistance: 13 [Phrenic 10+HD] Saves Fortitude: +8 [3 Con, 2 (Fighter), 3 (Psiwarrior)] Reflex: +3 [3 Dex, 0 (Fighter), 0 (Psiwarrior)] Will: +3 [3 Wis, 0 (Fighter), 0 (Psiwarrior)] Melee Attacks Kusari-Gama +5, 1d6+1, (20/x2), slashing [3 Dex, 2 BAB] Ranged Attacks Comp Longbow (+2 str) +5, 1d8+2, (20/x3), Range 110 ft, piercing called weapon [3 Dex, 2 BAB] Special Attacks & Abilities Force screen 1/day Def. precognition 3/day Empty mind 3/day Mind thrust 3/day Powers Known Level 1 [DC ??] Enlarge, Prevenom Weapon Level 2 [DC ??] (Power 1), (Power 2), (Power 3), etc Level 3 [DC ??] (Power 1), (Power 2), (Power 3), etc Power Points Available Per Fight: 2 [5 Total Power Points / 3, rounded up] Total Power Points: 5 [1 Psiwarrior, 1 Phrenic, 3 Wisdom] Manifester Level: 2 Feats Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kusari-GamaHuman [see 'Asian Weapons', DMG pg. 145] Combat ExpertiseLvl 1 [] 2 Weapon FightingFighter 1 [] Improved DisarmPsiwar 1 [] Combat ReflexesLvl 3 [] Weapon FinessePsiwar 2 [] Next: Standstill, Imp. Trip, greater 2WF, weapon focus Skills Total Skill Points: 30 [16 Fighter, 8 Psiwarrior, 6 Human] Languages: common, undercommon, gith [1 Racial, 2 Int] Armor Check Penalty: 0 [0 Armor] Spot: +3 [3 Wis, 0 Ranks] Listen: +3 [3 Wis, 0 Ranks] Move Silently: +3 [3 Dex, 0 Ranks] Hide: +3 [3 Dex, 0 Ranks] Balance: +6 [3 Dex, 3 Ranks (2 psiwarcc, 4 fightercc)] Climb: +8 [2 Str, 6 Ranks (2 psiwar, 4 fighter)] Jump: +8 [2 Str, 6 Ranks (2 psiwar, 4 fighter)] Swim: +6 [2 Str, 4 Ranks (2 psiwar, 2 fighter)] Craft (weapons): +10 [2 Int, 6 Ranks (6 human), 2 tools] Ride: +6 [4 Dex, 2 Ranks (0 psiwar, 2 fighter)] Conditional Modifiers xxxxx Prefight Actions xxxxx Equipment Worn and Carried Basic Outfit [0 lbs] [0 gp] Vest of Constant Inertial Armor [0 lbs][2000 gp][15 credits] Gloves of Dexterity +2 [0 lbs][4000 gp] Adamantine Kusari-Gamac [3 lbs][1515 gp] Cold Iron Kusari-Gamac [3 lbs][160 gp] Silver Kusari-Gamac [3 lbs][165 gp] Lt. Warhorse [150 gp] Military Saddle [30 lbs][20 gp] Cognizance Crystal 1pp [0 lbs][1000 gp] 90 gp in gems Expendable Items Max total (ECL2 x 50): 1250 gp Powerstone of Call weapon x2 [ML 2] [50 gp each = 100 gp] Powerstone of Offensive Precognition x3 and Offensive Prescience x3 [ML 2] [50 gp each = 300 gp] Equipment at Home Masterwork Weapon Tools [?? lbs][55 gp] Allies Maximum CR per ally: CR 1 [ECL-4, Min. 1] Maximum ECL per ally: ECL 3 [ECL-2] Maximum CA of allies per fight: CA 3 [ECL-2] Lt warhorse lt. load = under 230 lbs currently carrying 199 lbs. +2Int, +2 Wis, +4 Chr 1 bonus power point Spell Resistance 10+HD Force screen 1/day Def. precognition 3/day Empty mind 3/day Mind thrust 3/day Miscellaneous Information Prevenom weapon, get to them fast, flail wildly. Slave of the Kytons, she has finally escaped...
Etiquette_Gnome 02-04-07, 08:05 PM	I'm trying to find a line in the text that disallows prior day prebuffs. Also, that doesn't really make any sense. I understand the strange waiting period between fights and the like, but I should be allowed to cast a four day long spell two days before my 3FC starts, otherwise that kind of gimps the option for numerous spells. Does this mean if I cast a spell that lasts ten days, it will be removed from me between then and the next 3FC too? Is the Permanency spell only castable during a 3FC, and gets dispelled as soon as the day is done? "That day is the last time you can prebuff." - I'm certain you meant otherwise, but that sentence looks like it can be interpreted to mean that day is not the first time you can prebuff, thus I can prebuff the prior day too. And if I can't do that, I'm going to likely want to know the credit cost of an item that casts an X day long spell once every X days. The formula is easy enough (1800gp x SL x CL x 1/5 x 1/X).
Zevox 02-04-07, 08:39 PM	Ave! You might not remember me, in fact I’m pretty sure you do not, but I was once (summer 2004) a gladiator on Core Coliseum. I’ve decided to rejoin. However Gladius has changed quite a bit since then and my own min-max skills have diminished. Therefore I have few questions: 1. How is designing a gladiator different from designing a PC for standard adventure? On which areas should I focus? 2. What are recent, common tactics/strategies on Gladius? Any particular dangers I should be aware of? For that second question, a member who seems to have disappeared, Zelck, made a pretty good list/guide a while back. Take a look here for a number of archetypes we have around here, including links to some examples. Zevox
Sindorin 02-05-07, 02:36 AM	Ave! You might not remember me, in fact I’m pretty sure you do not, but I was once (summer 2004) a gladiator on Core Coliseum. I’ve decided to rejoin. However Gladius has changed quite a bit since then and my own min-max skills have diminished. Therefore I have few questions: 1. How is designing a gladiator different from designing a PC for standard adventure? On which areas should I focus? 2. What are recent, common tactics/strategies on Gladius? Any particular dangers I should be aware of? Welcome back! I remember you.
Magnificate 02-05-07, 07:44 AM	Welcome back! I remember you. Thanks! I should be ready in about a week. This time I'll try mounted fighter 2 / cleric X focused on charging. (My original gladiator, Domai, was a sundering barbarian)
Erithmu 02-05-07, 08:03 AM	2/5: Erithmu + 2° http://www.1a-network.de/images/cgi-bin/gbs/smilies/birthday.gif
Abyssal Stalker 02-05-07, 08:09 AM	People seem to do whatever it takes to get some credits... Happy birthday! :)
TelinArtho 02-05-07, 11:09 AM	Although I've missed most of the conversation that's gone by over the weekend. @Vath - for the record Zax isn't necessarily going to use a horde of vermin (if he was - he would have used small spiders most likely...). He is using vermin to determine their effectiveness as allies in a better way than I did with my previous vermin handler (Vakkor the creepy...). For all the conversation about the two-weapon fighter, tripping and all that, I can only really point to Farig and her relative success. For the most part, I designed her to be able to have options, but not be hurt excessively by taking those options and failing. For instance, she trips with a +7 to the modifier, but resists with a +13 due to her ride check. She disarms with a +20/+16/+12 (standard two-handed attack/primary side/secondary side) but resists with +24 due to the locked gauntlet. She also sunders - but only when she makes it difficult for her opponent to attack her back (sunders are usually reserved for held items other than weapons - I disarm weapons first). I focus less on ultimate ability in a particular area (such as using enlarge every fight), because it can be easily countered (a dwarf gets that bonus with just stability, so I just concentrate on a high rate of attacks with decent chances. Of course, meshing psionics into the build will be interesting, but I would tend to say that delaying the timing on gaining multiple attacks (from 2 attacks to 4 attacks/round) from ECL6 to ECL8 (or ECL10 with phrenic) will probably hurt you more than help.
Hirumajoe 02-05-07, 01:59 PM	Could an elder clarify whether allies count in regards to the tracking roll and the Scout Attack skills package? I.e. If Istima is riding a Large Pegasus and bringing along a psicrystal in the sewer, which modifiers apply? Would it be just DC 15 for indoors? Would it be DC 16 for Istima being small? Would it be DC 14 for the Pegaus being large? Would it be DC 13 for the Pegasus being large and the fact that Istima, the Pegasus, and the Psicrystal are 3 "creatures"? Thanks, Hirumajoe
TelinArtho 02-05-07, 02:10 PM	Although this should probably be fleshed out in the skills section, I would say that the DC is 13: DC15 - 1 (for three creatures) -1 (largest size of mixed size group). For the record though - I don't think this has come up before - so my point of view here may be clarified by another elder (with more information) or by Cat.
MindWandererB 02-05-07, 02:18 PM	I concur with Telin. The largest size and the group number both count. Silly that the crystal leaves tracks, but them's the rules.
hogarth 02-06-07, 11:44 AM	How does a character craft a magic oil? I assume that it's through the Brew Potion feat, but neither the description of the feat nor the "Creating Potions" portion of the SRD mention creating oils. The Brew Potion feat just says "You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures", which doesn't cover an Oil of Shillelagh (for instance). (This came up because I was thinking about buying a custom oil of Animate Dead.)
MindWandererB 02-06-07, 12:47 PM	Another useful Ask Wizards today: Q: Dear Sage, When a character applying poison to a weapon exposes himself to the poison, does it waste the poison? --Brandon No. A poisoned weapon retains its toxicity until it scores a hit or the poison is wiped off (DMG pg. 296). Exposing yourself to the poison during application doesn’t “use up” that dose of poison. You didn’t ask about what happens if the character accidentally poisons himself with the weapon (by rolling a natural 1 on the attack and failing the DC 15 Reflex save), but the Sage believes the answer is the same. Again, you haven’t technically “scored a hit” on yourself (you don’t damage yourself with the weapon, for example), so this accidental poisoning appears to be a freebie.Again, this is the way we've been doing it, but it's nice to get clarification. Edit: However, here's a huge overturn from today's Rules of the Game: You and your animal companion can share a spell even if the spell normally does not affect animals. The shared spell does not have to be a divine spell; you can share any spell you cast yourself with your animal companion. You cannot share spell-like abilities or supernatural abilities, even if you can target them on yourself. You and your animal companion can share effects from magic items only if the effect is a spell that you can target on yourself. For example, you and your animal companion can share a barkskin spell cast from a wand, but cannot share the armor bonus from bracers of armor.Holy crap. That changes a heck of a lot.
MitzaVolchenko 02-06-07, 06:08 PM	/me sighs Anyone else ever wanted to beat a certain RotG writer with a large stick?
MindWandererB 02-06-07, 07:35 PM	Unfortunately, we rarely have any indication of whether the RotG are following the RAI (as only a WotC employee could know) or are just pulling stuff out of someone's butt. In the absense of distinguishing factors, we have to go against the butt assumption.
Etiquette_Gnome 02-06-07, 07:57 PM	Between fight cycles, am I allowed to craft up to 1000gp worth of magical items without it costing me a free activity for my 1st fight for the next cycle?
MindWandererB 02-06-07, 08:56 PM	Between fight cycles, am I allowed to craft up to 1000gp worth of magical items without it costing me a free activity for my 1st fight for the next cycle? Nope. It costs you either a free or full activity. I usually craft just enough to make it a full activity, if I can--although I would think that crafting < 1000 gp as a full activity would be okay, too.
Rauul 02-06-07, 09:43 PM	ok A question... When crafting an orc Double axe, the the craftsman wants 1 head to be deep crystal, and the 2nd head to be Adamantine, whats the cost.. Acually what would the cost be to remove a head off a deep crystal orc double axe, and add 1 Adamantine head.. making the axe have 1 deep crystal side 1 Adamantine side (i saw the rules for cold iron) Can someone please clarify for me
Erithmu 02-06-07, 09:54 PM	Orc Double axe cost: 60gp Cost to make one end Adamantine: 3000gp Cost to make other end Deep Crystal: 1000gp Total Cost: 4060gp market value Basically: each end is treated as a different weapon, the material costs for those two materials are additions and have no function of the base cost.
Rauul 02-06-07, 09:59 PM	Orc Double axe cost: 60gp Cost to make one end Adamantine: 3000gp Cost to make other end Deep Crystal: 1000gp Total Cost: 4060gp market value Basically: each end is treated as a different weapon, the material costs for those two materials are additions and have no function of the base cost. so basicly it's cheaper to just make another 15lb weapon that it is to change 1 axe head from deep crystal to Adamantine?
Erithmu 02-06-07, 10:04 PM	so basicly it's cheaper to just make another 15lb weapon that it is to change 1 axe head from deep crystal to Adamantine? I'm not sure you can change it ... I'm mostly referencing the masterwork rules. I think if you wanted double ended Adamantine it would be 6060gp. I am guessing this is for your orc ftr/pw ... And I think his current axe only has one end of Deep Crystal... I could be wrong though.
Maraxus 02-06-07, 10:38 PM	I'm just equipping my psi-warrior, so another question: Is one allowed to buy powerstones from a psion with expanded knowledge - thus a Level 2, ML 3 powerstone?
Guildmaster (EHTC) 02-06-07, 10:46 PM	I'm just equipping my psi-warrior, so another question: Is one allowed to buy powerstones from a psion with expanded knowledge - thus a Level 2, ML 3 powerstone? No need to be even that convoluted - Psionic Fists get 2nd-level psychic warrior powers at level 3 (plus theres a few powers in the Psychic Warrior list that Psions already get anyway). So yes, you can get Psychic Warrior 2nd level powerstones at ML 3. Zevox
Vathelokai 02-07-07, 12:30 AM	When you activate a figurine of wonderous power elepahnt, does it become an elephant with the animal type, or a construct that looks and has stats like an elephant? Marble Elephant This is the largest of the figurines, the statuette being about the size of a human hand. Upon utterance of the command word, a marble elephant grows to the size and specifications of a true elephant. The animal created from the statuette is fully obedient to the figurine’s owner, serving as a beast of burden, a mount, or a combatant. The statuette can be used four times per month for up to 24 hours at a time. Moderate transmutation; CL 11th; Craft Wondrous Item, animate objects; Price 17,000 gp.
TheMagister 02-07-07, 12:36 AM	Personally, I would think that it becomes a construct that has the stats of a huge animated object, per the Monster Manual. What would happen if you came across a life-size marble statue of an elephant in-game, and a cleric cast animate objects on it? It would animate and come after you, but it's neither an elephant nor a stone golem; it's a huge animated object. TM
TheMagister 02-07-07, 12:38 AM	On another note, I need a sneaky way to come up with {figures in his head...[36000-28400=7600]} about 8000 xp in three weeks, so I can possibly get Mssr. Hood in on the Iron Man. I don't know if I'll have enough time even THEN. Think a simple EL 8 quest'll do it? TM
Erithmu 02-07-07, 12:40 AM	On another note, I need a sneaky way to come up with {figures in his head...[36000-28400=7600]} about 8000 xp in three weeks, so I can possibly get Mssr. Hood in on the Iron Man. I don't know if I'll have enough time even THEN. Think a simple EL 8 quest'll do it? TMHaving just finished 2 ECL 8 quests with the same character ... they give 7200xp each ... might need an ECL 9 encounter in there somewhere.
TheMagister 02-07-07, 12:42 AM	Yeah, I just saw that. MAN, he's just getting interesting, too! Lvl 9 gains him MANYSHOT, and then boy, just WATCH the damage... Lvl 10 is just icing, because that's when Greater Psionic Shot shows up {shiver}.
MindWandererB 02-07-07, 01:08 AM	When you activate a figurine of wonderous power elepahnt, does it become an elephant with the animal type, or a construct that looks and has stats like an elephant?Well, the text does say "the animal," but more important is the section at the beginning of the Figurines section: When the figurine is tossed down and the correct command word spoken, it becomes a living creature of normal size (except when noted otherwise below). I think it has to be more explicit than the elephant entry to make it not an animal. Although many of the other entries are pretty sloppy--no animal has an 8 Int like the Onyx Dog.
MindWandererB 02-07-07, 01:29 AM	I have a question about rewards: When you quest for a Diplomacy ally, you gain GP as if the quest EL was lower, by 1 per CR. But... I can't figure out exactly how this is supposed to work. And I can't find any other Diplomacy MQ where the QL remembered to apply the penalty at all! So, using Silis' new EL 8 MQ to gain a CR 5 ally as an example: he gains 2400 xp. Is the gp he gains: 634 (an ECL 8 character winning an EL 3 MQ would gain 450 xp, times 1.41 as the standard ECL 8 xp:gp ratio) 900 (the gp reward for an ECL 3 character completing an equal-level MQ) 1269 (the ECL 3 standard reward, times the 1.41 ECL 8 ratio--which is also very close to 3/8 of the 3400 gp which would be the normal reward) Something else...?And here's me giving fair warning: as time permits, I fully intend to go through the quest log, looking for Diplomacy quests dated after Nov. 10, 2006 (the last edit date on the relevant rule page--I don't know when that rule went into effect) and throwing every character without the appropriate deduction in prison. Or someone else can do it--there's probably a credit in it altogether.
Vathelokai 02-07-07, 01:44 AM	My Hassan had his rewards reduced in the quest A Friend in the dark. Not sure if it was done right, but it's an example at least.
TheMagister 02-07-07, 01:49 AM	Speaking of allies: @MWB - could I prevail upon you to give the o.k. to Mssr. Hood's Blackmarket request for his Elite Pegasus ally? It's been 5 days (almost...a matter of hours until) and I won't be able to edit him on Wednesday before deadline.
Zevox 02-07-07, 02:05 AM	Speaking of allies: @MWB - could I prevail upon you to give the o.k. to Mssr. Hood's Blackmarket request for his Elite Pegasus ally? It's been 5 days (almost...a matter of hours until) and I won't be able to edit him on Wednesday before deadline. Actually TM, you don't need confirmation on that. Purchased allies don't cost credits to get advanced/elite/customized if you're doing it at the time they're purchased, only if you want to change them after you've bought them. Zevox
MindWandererB 02-07-07, 02:09 AM	My Hassan had his rewards reduced in the quest A Friend in the dark. Not sure if it was done right, but it's an example at least.Hmm... so that's like my first example. Any other opinions (since that's the least favorable, I'd love to hear them!) Speaking of allies: @MWB - could I prevail upon you to give the o.k. to Mssr. Hood's Blackmarket request for his Elite Pegasus ally? It's been 5 days (almost...a matter of hours until) and I won't be able to edit him on Wednesday before deadline.Umm... hold on. Str 20 (4 pts: 12 + 8 racial) Dex 18 (6 pts: 14 + 4 racial) Con 21 (8 pts: 15 + 6 racial) Int 10 (2 pts: 10 + 0) Wis 15 (5 pts: 13 + 2 racial) Cha 10 (0 pts: 8 + 2 racial) Okay, 25. Hmm.. the rules say to double the market price for this, but also that elite costs only 2000 extra. That's a mistake. The blackmarket agrees with the text, not the table. Since I didn't write that rule, I don't know which is correct. Our rules really ought to say something about the professional rearing, too. Hmph. I also can't explain the +6 MS it has. 4 Dex, and 2...? However, these are minor things. I'll approve it, just a minute. Edit: @Zevox: the Blackmarket says this: Advanced Allies: You can pay credits to get the right to acquire an advanced monster from the list of available allies. Be it a quested beast with more hitdice, or a monster that uses the Elite Ability Array, no matter how it is advanced, you have to pay a flat one-time cost of 5 credits (see FAQ: Allies for more information on Advanced Allies).But then, the main rules only mention that you need credits to "advance" (i.e. add hit dice to) such an ally. I think Zevox is right... sounds familiar. But as I don't dabble in allies much myself, I'm really not sure. If I were you, TM, I'd go ahead and add it and get permission afterwards if it turns out you need it. It looks correct as far as I can tell, aside from the MS.
Zevox 02-07-07, 02:28 AM	Time to cast Summon Obscure Rule rule again, eh? Here ya go :) : Customizing creatures: How can I do that? The creature versions from the Monster Manual are the standard versions but surely not the only ones. You can customize these creatures by changing their printed feats and skills. For feats, you just exchange one or more existing ones with new ones. Skills need more attention because you have to recalculate a creatures skill points and then assign them anew, taking into consideration class/cross-class skills, and common sense (no spellcraft animals, for example). You may only customize a creature when you acquire it; once you've made your decision, there will be no further customization! Bonus feats may never be customized, and Psionic Feats are forbidden for customization! All purchased creatures may be customized at no credit cost albeit at a higher market price which reflects the special training you request. All allies attained by either handle animal or diplomacy cost credits to customize: you have to pay 5° per changed feat, and a flat 1° if you want to relocate skill points. Post your request in the Blackmarket and link the Pitlords answer. See FAQ: Allies II for increased prices. Now, while I look at this closely, it does seem to make a distinction between customization and advancing allies (two different chunks of rules), and the advancing section doesn't include that little caveat, so perhaps advancing costs credits. Which then begs the question whether the Elite Array falls under the "advancing" rule or the "customizing" one, which I'm not sure of. My gut would say customizing, since advancing to me just sounds like adding HD, but I've been known to be wrong on things like this before. Zevox
MindWandererB 02-07-07, 02:38 AM	As I said, I think you're right. I seem to recall a previous conversation on this topic.
TheMagister 02-07-07, 04:21 AM	I will be looking for a miniquestlord for Rubicanti very soon (next week? week after?) so that he can take care of that pesky alignment change/burning down a building for the fun of it thing. Ain't pyrokinetics fun? Anyhow, send me a PM if you're interested. TM
TelinArtho 02-07-07, 10:12 AM	Nope. It costs you either a free or full activity. I usually craft just enough to make it a full activity, if I can--although I would think that crafting < 1000 gp as a full activity would be okay, too. After Bulgar's first quest, I had him sit out on a "full activity" to craft a single masterwork guisarme - so yes you can certainly sit out when crafting for less than 1000gp. (Of course, I did send Pitlords a PM to make sure he didn't get paired regardless...)
TelinArtho 02-07-07, 02:10 PM	If you have multiple alarms cast and each is set up with a mental alarm - can you differentiate among which alarms have been tripped? Alarm Abjuration Level: Brd 1, Rgr 1, Sor/Wiz 1 Components: V, S, F/DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Area: 20-ft.-radius emanation centered on a point in space Duration: 2 hours/level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No Alarm sounds a mental or audible alarm each time a creature of Tiny or larger size enters the warded area or touches it. A creature that speaks the password (determined by you at the time of casting) does not set off the alarm. You decide at the time of casting whether the alarm will be mental or audible. Mental Alarm: A mental alarm alerts you (and only you) so long as you remain within 1 mile of the warded area. You note a single mental “ping” that awakens you from normal sleep but does not otherwise disturb concentration. A silence spell has no effect on a mental alarm. Audible Alarm: An audible alarm produces the sound of a hand bell, and anyone within 60 feet of the warded area can hear it clearly. Reduce the distance by 10 feet for each interposing closed door and by 20 feet for each substantial interposing wall. In quiet conditions, the ringing can be heard faintly as far as 180 feet away. The sound lasts for 1 round. Creatures within a silence spell cannot hear the ringing. Ethereal or astral creatures do not trigger the alarm. Alarm can be made permanent with a permanency spell. Arcane Focus: A tiny bell and a piece of very fine silver wire I'm asking because I have a character who is pretty limited in his ability to find his opponent. With a strategic use of several alarms, I could see him being much more effective though... As an extension of this question, a no-limit use-activated item of alarm would cost: 1 (CL) x 1 (SL) x 2000gp = 2000gp?
MindWandererB 02-07-07, 02:20 PM	I think that would be a stretch. The Audible Alarm makes a very specific sound, and you wouldn't be able to tell which is which except by identifying where the sound came from. The Mental Alarm should be the same--except that since the "sound" doesn't emanate from a location, I don't know how you'd tell one from another.
TelinArtho 02-07-07, 02:28 PM	I was afraid of that. Oh well - I guess that means I can make it with just 3/day Alarm instead - cutting the cost down to 1400gp - far more reasonable...
TheMagister 02-07-07, 07:45 PM	Question directly related to pairings this week: Large Flying creature (10x10). How much space does this creature need in order to fly if maneuverability were not in the equation? Can a flying creature fly at 0' elevation, skimming the ground? TM
Zevox 02-07-07, 07:51 PM	Question directly related to pairings this week: Large Flying creature (10x10). How much space does this creature need in order to fly if maneuverability were not in the equation? Can a flying creature fly at 0' elevation, skimming the ground? TM Yup. As long as theres enough space for it to move, theres enough for it to fly at least at 0' elevation. Zevox
TheMagister 02-07-07, 08:12 PM	Good news. Now TURNING can be a problem, but that's another issue. Another question, and a dicey one: When is a gladiator with allies "defeated" for the purpose of a Hunter/FFA? Do I have to kill him and all his allies (in effect, "the horse he rode in on"), or can I just pound him into the arena dirt and then Pitlords makes his allies disappear? TM
Zevox 02-07-07, 09:14 PM	Good news. Now TURNING can be a problem, but that's another issue. No problem at all if you're sticking to 0', actually. Remember MWB's little annoying lizard, Zero? One of his tricks, which works for anything that flies, was to touch down and change directions when flying along the ground any time he wanted to alter his direction, which is a free action. Its only once you get to 5'+ high that you start needing something like Wingover to help a Pegasus with turning. When is a gladiator with allies "defeated" for the purpose of a Hunter/FFA? Do I have to kill him and all his allies (in effect, "the horse he rode in on"), or can I just pound him into the arena dirt and then Pitlords makes his allies disappear? You need to either kill him (reduce to -10 hp), or knock both him and his allies unconscious. And in a hunter fight, I think our rule is that though the ally fights on until the master is at -10, you get credit for the kill as soon as your opponent is in negative hp (presuming said ally isn't a Cleric who heals him back up, of course). Zevox
Vathelokai 02-07-07, 09:18 PM	Good news. Now TURNING can be a problem, but that's another issue. Another question, and a dicey one: When is a gladiator with allies "defeated" for the purpose of a Hunter/FFA? Do I have to kill him and all his allies (in effect, "the horse he rode in on"), or can I just pound him into the arena dirt and then Pitlords makes his allies disappear? TM My understanding is that the allies surrender once their PC is killed. Good Luck, Rubicanti.
Vathelokai 02-07-07, 09:20 PM	No problem at all if you're sticking to 0', actually. Remember MWB's little annoying lizard, Zero? One of his tricks, which works for anything that flies, was to touch down and change directions when flying along the ground any time he wanted to alter his direction, which is a free action. Its only once you get to 5'+ high that you start needing something like Wingover to help a Pegasus with turning. Zevox I asked about that in the elder thread. I wanted my pesky little dragon to do part of her move toward the ground and continue the move as a burrow. The elders gave me the impression that it each move action can only take advantage of one movement type, so it would be a double move. Seems to need some more research.
Zevox 02-07-07, 09:24 PM	I asked about that in the elder thread. I wanted my pesky little dragon to do part of her move toward the ground and continue the move as a burrow. The elders gave me the impression that it each move action can only take advantage of one movement type, so it would be a double move. Seems to need some more research. I'm not talking about changing movement modes. Just touching down on the ground briefly to turn (i.e. change your facing within the space you're already in, which is not movement in any way), then resuming flight. Thats a free action, which can be done during other actions, so its perfectly doable. I'm also fairly sure MWB had some rules reference for this, but I can't recall what atm - maybe he can fill us in. Zevox
TheMagister 02-07-07, 09:35 PM	No problem at all if you're sticking to 0', actually. Remember MWB's little annoying lizard, Zero? One of his tricks, which works for anything that flies, was to touch down and change directions when flying along the ground any time he wanted to alter his direction, which is a free action. Its only once you get to 5'+ high that you start needing something like Wingover to help a Pegasus with turning. You need to either kill him (reduce to -10 hp), or knock both him and his allies unconscious. And in a hunter fight, I think our rule is that though the ally fights on until the master is at -10, you get credit for the kill as soon as your opponent is in negative hp (presuming said ally isn't a Cleric who heals him back up, of course). Zevox My understanding is that the allies surrender once their PC is killed. Good Luck, Rubicanti. Thanks for the answers. Now, all I need is a way to throw some icewater on Maraxus' dice. You know, every time that we've faced, Durin has killed Rubi with multiple 20s while Rubi has died to lamentable natural 1s? I'm getting darned SICK of it. :pbbbtt:
hogarth 02-07-07, 10:34 PM	Another question, and a dicey one: When is a gladiator with allies "defeated" for the purpose of a Hunter/FFA? Do I have to kill him and all his allies (in effect, "the horse he rode in on"), or can I just pound him into the arena dirt and then Pitlords makes his allies disappear? TM This was clarified in the Oracle thread for the Reginald/Torel/Kervan hunter fight: all allies surrender once a gladiator has been defeated. Note that "defeated" has a looser meaning for Hunter /FFA fights: *Definition 'defeated': target is dead, unconscious, or helpless with no chance to rejoin on its own. To receive rewards this state must still apply at the end of the fight. If your target gets anyhow revived again during the fight, you get your original target reassigned and no target rewards until it is defeated (again). So you don't have to kill the gladiator, just "defeat" him.
MindWandererB 02-08-07, 01:00 AM	This was clarified in the Oracle thread for the Reginald/Torel/Kervan hunter fight: all allies surrender once a gladiator has been defeated. Note that "defeated" has a looser meaning for Hunter/FFA fights: So you don't have to kill the gladiator, just "defeat" him. I don't remember that as the conclusion--I recall that allies of defeated opponents fight on until all but one PC are down, although the fight ends when that happens. Do you remember where exactly that discussion was? Regarding flying and touching down: changing movement modes is indeed a free action, I could probably find the cite if you need it. The rules are silent when it comes to switching modes mid-move. Since there are no rules for that, the conservative approach is to disallow it entirely. I use a conversion as a house rule in my own games (reduce the two modes to the lowest common denominator), but since there's no written rule about it, it's probably best to prohibit it.
Sindorin 02-08-07, 02:35 AM	I've always thought it was funny before when it used to be that a character wzs bleeding out or down but not dead (0 to -9hp) they technically had not lost the fight because they had not yet died. It always gave incentive to bring in SOME form of ally because said ally could sometimes change the course of the fight and you'd end up winning even though your character was down in the first round of the fight. I'm actually quite glad that the oracle amended our concept of when a fight is over. Ah, it is good to be back (hehe).
Abyssal Stalker 02-08-07, 03:14 AM	The discussion went over in the oracle-thread. I remember the fight, because I pitlorded it. I don't remember how it ended, but I had to go back and edit the fight a week later.
hogarth 02-08-07, 08:33 AM	I don't remember that as the conclusion--I recall that allies of defeated opponents fight on until all but one PC are down, although the fight ends when that happens. Do you remember where exactly that discussion was? As you point out, the original question I posed only had to do with the case where there are two fighters remaining. I'm not sure what the point would be of having a defeated gladiator's allies continue to fight if there's no chance of the defeated gladiator winning, however. Here's the original question. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10827258&postcount=106) Here's a summary of the opinions. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10835714&postcount=119) (Telin sided with NiQil's opinion later in the thread.) Note the way I paraphrased NiQil's opinion: The Hunter fight has separate rules for "defeating" an opponent, and these apply until the end of the match -- no exceptions. It doesn't matter if that opponent still has allies who can fight; once a gladiator is "defeated" (i.e. dead, dying, helpless or unconscious with no way of removing that condition), he and his allies are out of the fight. That might not be an accurate representation of the Elders' consensus.
Zevox 02-08-07, 12:51 PM	From the look of things though, that ruling is just for how Hunter fights work, not every type of fight. Which means that in any other type of fight, the old rules still stand - if you're not dead, your allies could still win it for you. Zevox
hogarth 02-08-07, 01:03 PM	From the look of things though, that ruling is just for how Hunter fights work, not every type of fight. Which means that in any other type of fight, the old rules still stand - if you're not dead, your allies could still win it for you. TheMagister was asking specifically about Hunter/FFA fights, though. EDIT: As Zevox points out below, the ruling was for Hunter fights only. FFA fights follow the normal rules for "last man standing".
Zevox 02-08-07, 01:05 PM	TheMagister was asking specifically about Hunter/FFA fights, though. Correction: just hunter. Theres nothing in there indicating this is true for FFA fights in general, just hunter because it requires a different definition of "defeated" to determine who gets rewards for their kills. And in any event I'm just pointing that out because the way you phrased it initially would lead one to believe it applied to all fight types, not just hunter (note Sindorin's post, which seems to assume that). Zevox
MindWandererB 02-08-07, 01:34 PM	As you point out, the original question I posed only had to do with the case where there are two fighters remaining. I'm not sure what the point would be of having a defeated gladiator's allies continue to fight if there's no chance of the defeated gladiator winning, however. Here's the original question. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10827258&postcount=106) Here's a summary of the opinions. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10835714&postcount=119) (Telin sided with NiQil's opinion later in the thread.) Note the way I paraphrased NiQil's opinion: That might not be an accurate representation of the Elders' consensus. I ended up recanting, too--but only determining a winner. Note that in that fight, there were three PCs, and the one that went down first had no allies. Had Torel gone down first, I see no reason to believe that Sinwa would not have stuck around and continued to attack any opponents it saw. Torel would still lose, but his ally could affect the final outcome. I see nothing in the rules that implies that allies are instantly teleported out of the arena when their PC is defeated.
Abyssal Stalker 02-08-07, 01:44 PM	There might not be anything about this in the rules, but to me it has always seemed reasonable that when the actual opponent is knocked out of the game, then it's a victory. This is how it should be. (I know that I ran it differently in the fight in question, but that's just because it seemed to be the way to do it that time) It shouldn't matter if the opponent is knocked down, drained from her charisma, or cut in half. If he can't act and has no way of recovering, then it should be a victory. If we allow allies to change the outcome after the actual opponent is taken out, then we are making allies more powerful. (Just look at the other discussion, we all seem to agree that they are powerful enough...)
sonofzeal 02-08-07, 02:26 PM	Hey, uh, this is my first post in Core Coliseum and all. Newbie guide suggested this was as good a spot as any, so yeah. I only heard about this place yesterday, but it sounds right up my ally. I've run my own campaigns in the past, and concider myself very competant with the rules and with the basic techniques of powergaming. I have a few tricks I want to try, and I was wondering if there was anyone I could run ideas and strategy by. The rules section is.... somewhat daunting, and I'm sure I missed some stuff (such as how to count reared animals against total worth). So, is there anyone I can PM, or should I post strategy and rules questions here or in a separate channel?
MindWandererB 02-08-07, 02:35 PM	Here is probably the best place. I'm not sure what you mean about "total worth," though--animal allies are limited by CR, and by the gold it takes to buy them. If you have to pay someone to train them, you lose the money; if you don't, it doesn't increase their value (you can't make money by buying an untrained animal, training it yourself, and selling it again). Can you clarify the question? Oh, and welcome! (I always forget that part.)
sonofzeal 02-08-07, 03:00 PM	Thanks for the welcome! As for animals, I was referring to the rules for rearing an animal from the wild, which in theory would be free as long as you can find it. Miniquest, I guess? As for strategy... I was thinking about a grapple build, but grapple seems fundamentally unbalanced for one-on-one fights. Is there any reason why I shouldn't optimize for grappling? Are there common precautions people take against grapplers?
hogarth 02-08-07, 03:06 PM	Thanks for the welcome! As for animals, I was referring to the rules for rearing an animal from the wild, which in theory would be free as long as you can find it. Miniquest, I guess? You can use the Handle Animal skill to get free allies with a miniquest. Note that this option doesn't get really exciting until level 6+ (since at levels 3-5 you're limited to CR 1 animals and a light warhorse is about as good as you can get for CR 1). As for strategy... I was thinking about a grapple build, but grapple seems fundamentally unbalanced for one-on-one fights. Is there any reason why I shouldn't optimize for grappling? Are there common precautions people take against grapplers? Common precautions include running away (especially for mounted opponents) and attacking from range. Grappling works pretty well, though -- just make sure that you have ranged options as well.
Zevox 02-08-07, 03:24 PM	As for strategy... I was thinking about a grapple build, but grapple seems fundamentally unbalanced for one-on-one fights. Is there any reason why I shouldn't optimize for grappling? Are there common precautions people take against grapplers? Grappling is a fairly common tactic, actually - we used to see Half-Giant Monks popping up out of the woodworks all the time. The problems it runs into are few at low level - mounted opponents can be hard to deal with, and allies can screw you while you're in the grapple, but those and ranged combatants are about it. At higher levels though you'll run into folks with Freedom of Movement, which totally invalidates the tactic, so you might want to plan for being able to do something else good at that point. Zevox
Rauul 02-08-07, 03:26 PM	Ok will carry on the Pet and Allys thread here.... So your telling me.. that a 5th level cleric can go out and find a Some Troll Skeletons and cast desecrate then animate dead and get a 4 Troll Skeleton .. or 2 Nightmare Skeletons.. at ECL 5 (20 hit dice) Regardless of the type of undead you create with this spell, you can’t create more HD of undead than twice your caster level with a single casting of animate dead. (The desecrate spell doubles this limit) if not.. then the Spell is nerfed from the way it was originally designed years ago and all the way up through D&D But according to CoCo's rules... if Said Cleric went out and got these Undead.. they would not be able to bring them into the arena(without serious credits).. Yet they all fall under the rules of the Spell... hence the reason i said the spell is nerfed in CoCo.. As for Undead taking gold from the caster... i wanna hear the reasoning for this.. they are undead and under the complete control of the caster.. who has to outfit them.. yet they take a potion of his gold.. exp i can ALMOST understand Except that Animated undead can't advance.. but thats a Balance issue.. the gold isn't..
hogarth 02-08-07, 03:38 PM	Ok will carry on the Pet and Allys thread here.... So your telling me.. that a 5th level cleric can go out and find a Some Troll Skeletons and cast desecrate then animate dead and get a 4 Troll Skeleton .. or 2 Nightmare Skeletons.. at ECL 5 (20 hit dice) if not.. then the Spell is nerfed from the way it was originally designed years ago and all the way up through D&D. You can create those undead, you just can't bring them in because of the arena rules. I don't really consider that a "nerf"; more like "common sense". Or do you think a character should be allowed to bring 1,000 mules in to the arena, too?
sonofzeal 02-08-07, 03:43 PM	I look forward to posting a grapple build soon, and I don't intend to use either monks or halfgiants. We'll see how well it works! ;)
Zevox 02-08-07, 03:44 PM	Ok will carry on the Pet and Allys thread here.... So your telling me.. that a 5th level cleric can go out and find a Some Troll Skeletons and cast desecrate then animate dead and get a 4 Troll Skeleton .. or 2 Nightmare Skeletons.. at ECL 5 (20 hit dice) Yup, that you can do. Can't use all those allies in one match due to the CA limit (which is a general limit on allies of all kinds, to prevent them from getting ridiculously out of control), but you can animate everything the core rules lets you animate. As for Undead taking gold from the caster... i wanna hear the reasoning for this.. they are undead and under the complete control of the caster.. who has to outfit them.. yet they take a potion of his gold.. exp i can ALMOST understand Except that Animated undead can't advance.. but thats a Balance issue.. the gold isn't.. Theres no RP explanation given for the xp/gp penalty - its just one thing thats supposed to balance allies (doesn't do so very well, but the arguments to get it changed to just gold loss have failed thus far). And actually, if you didn't penalize both of them, that would create imbalances - if you lose xp bt not gp, you'll have more gp at any given level than you should. If it were reversed (gp penalty, no xp), you're effectively paying that percentile of your gp for your ally. Which would be a good way to balance allies, except I'd think the amount they take should be lowered in that instance (25% of your earnings ends up a lot of gold, presuming you keep your CA maxed out, and you still need to equip your allies). Zevox
MindWandererB 02-08-07, 03:50 PM	Continued from the FotW thread, as requested. Interesting that you say this as you just got an encounter lowered for Maya when every chart on the monster fight list contains higher than it should be options and at higher levels has you actually roll on a different chart. We are equating EL to ECL, right there. I note you objected to the lizards on the chart but not the other imbalanced monsters. CR's are meant to be taken by a party, not a soloist.I got the encounter lowered because it was supposed to be EL 4, but was actually EL 5. (Well, due to the high roll, it was actually EL 5 and 6, but that's not the point.) The encounter tables, just like the ones in the DMG, use EL, exactly as they should. And yes, CR/EL is intended to be challenged as a party. But that's because TPKs are to be avoided in a traditional game, and even the death of one PC should happen rarely. Here, we aim for a kill/TPK rate of about 50%. If we made monster encounters at an appropriate CR for one PC in a TT game, the fights would be a joke. Having been in a CoCo campaign now, I can say that with our powergaming characters (which could have been a lot more tweaked than they were), a CR of three or four above our ECL, with a party of 5, was not terribly challenging. Although... I make no excuses for the "CR 10" troll weretyrannosaurus.
Rauul 02-08-07, 03:54 PM	You can create those undead, you just can't bring them in because of the arena rules. I don't really consider that a "nerf"; more like "common sense". Or do you think a character should be allowed to bring 1,000 mules in to the arena, too? Acually no, 1000 mules would or should require a 1000 handle animal skill or 1000 credits.. But a Necromancer cleric should be able to bring in 1.. just 1 of thier undead thats equal to or 1-3 hd bigger than they are since it's under thier complete control.. remeber Animate Dead undead are totally mineless and only do what the cleric tells them (and only simple commands) But then again the Same necro can bring in 2 level 2 skeletons with tower shields and get a walking wall that provides full cover .. And just Stand behind them and blast/range attacks..
MitzaVolchenko 02-08-07, 03:59 PM	Take into account the number of auto-loss monster fights out there. Ask Featylec if he thinks it is fair. Heck, you found it unfair and appealed it. That is the first time to my knowledge that any objection to the chart as written has been altered. It has been requested several times, but this is the first time it has happened. Not horribly fair unless you are now going to go through and edit the entire chart essentially turning the whole deal into house rules. That is fine with me, btw. I rarely get monster fights to run or to fight. I could go on and on and on again...or you can just search my posts repeatedly regarding the interaction between CR, EL, ECL, and LA. Toss in that CoCo nips certain creatures' LA by disallowing their abilities and you have a recipe for a muck up. We have an issue. The question is what to do about it. I am not sure. I do know that seeing repeated losses because of a bevy of expendables and allies gets tiring.
Etiquette_Gnome 02-08-07, 04:02 PM	Does that tower shield on two skeleton tactic actually work at all? I seem to remember a fight from a week or two ago where a small character was behind a large one with a tower shield, and the small one got hit anyway because the tower shield only gives total cover to the user (so the small creature only got soft cover).
hogarth 02-08-07, 04:18 PM	Acually no, 1000 mules would or should require a 1000 handle animal skill or 1000 credits.. That's funny -- my Player's Handbook says I only need 8,000 gp to get 1,000 mules. Anything else is just a mean-spirited nerf. :P About the "50%/50%" ratio in monster fights, that sounds reasonable until you consider that it might equate to "50% of gladiators get assigned a wimpy monster, and 50% of gladiators get assigned an unbeatable monster". For monster fights, I'd rather see a shorter, more selective list of relatively balanced opponents (ideally complete with preassigned equipment) than a long list that runs the gamut from the ridiculous (EL 4 Sea Cat, anyone?) to the horrifying (EL 4 young White Dragon, complete with equipment).
MindWandererB 02-08-07, 04:18 PM	Take into account the number of auto-loss monster fights out there. Ask Featylec if he thinks it is fair. Heck, you found it unfair and appealed it. That is the first time to my knowledge that any objection to the chart as written has been altered. It has been requested several times, but this is the first time it has happened.Since we created our own tables, it has actually happened several times. I should know; I wrote the majority of them myself. Those charts are based on CR/EL, and if a mistake is made such that a roll produces the wrong EL, it gets fixed. And yes... there are a lot of monster fights that are auto-losses for the PC. Which I actually find strange--there are few PvP fights that are auto-losses because people are prepared for them. We rarely have characters in full plate with no ranged weapon, or spellcasters that pack nothing but Sleep and Magic Missile, because those are just too easy to negate. So why do players always forget to pack cold iron and oil of Bless Weapon for demons, torches and/or acid for swarms, and so on?
Macbrea 02-08-07, 04:37 PM	So your saying your average ECL 7 character should be able to easily handle? 44: 1d4+1 Dragons, wyrmling red or silver; very young black, blue, green, or brass; young white (1d7) [CR4 each] 5 wyrmling red dragons is an EL 9 encounter.
sonofzeal 02-08-07, 04:49 PM	Question... (if this is the wrong place, let me know) Let's say I was working on a shield basher character, and I invest some of my 3000 gold in a small shield with +1 shield spikes for that extra bit of damage. Then I go up a level, and decide I want my spikes on a large shield. Can I concider the two separately and apply the old spikes to the new shield, or do I have to sell off both and start from scratch? Oh, and I haven't seen it in the rules yet - how does sellback work here?
MindWandererB 02-08-07, 04:50 PM	So your saying your average ECL 7 character should be able to easily handle? 44: 1d4+1 Dragons, wyrmling red or silver; very young black, blue, green, or brass; young white (1d7) [CR4 each] 5 wyrmling red dragons is an EL 9 encounter. And two is an EL 6 encounter. And no! An average EL 7 character should not be able to handle that easily. Not easily at all. An average EL 7 character should have about a 50/50 chance of winning that encounter, assuming they take it as seriously as they would a battle against an ECL 7 gladiator. High or low rolls on the d4 will affect that chance, as will high or low rolls in a fight. It all averages out. Of course, dragons are WotC's admitted CR-breakers, but I think it's above and beyond our duties to reassign CRs across the board. Question... (if this is the wrong place, let me know) Let's say I was working on a shield basher character, and I invest some of my 3000 gold in a small shield with +1 shield spikes for that extra bit of damage. Then I go up a level, and decide I want my spikes on a large shield. Can I concider the two separately and apply the old spikes to the new shield, or do I have to sell off both and start from scratch? Oh, and I haven't seen it in the rules yet - how does sellback work here?As much as I disagree with it, we make shield and armor spiked detachable. You can move them to a different shield if you like. Items can be sold for half their market value.
hogarth 02-08-07, 04:56 PM	Of course, dragons are WotC's admitted CR-breakers, but I think it's above and beyond our duties to reassign CRs across the board. However, they're our encounter tables, so we're certainly well within our duties to remove the outliers in terms of difficulty (both too weak and too strong).
SauroGrenom 02-08-07, 05:06 PM	And no! An average EL 7 character should not be able to handle that easily. Not easily at all. An average EL 7 character should have about a 50/50 chance of winning that encounter, assuming they take it as seriously as they would a battle against an ECL 7 gladiator. High or low rolls on the d4 will affect that chance, as will high or low rolls in a fight. It all averages out. That's not equivalent to a coco arena fight in any reasonable stretch of the imagination. Characters are never paired with opponents 2 ECL above their own ECL. If mismatches happens in a guild match, combat advantages are given with surprise rounds or randomly rolled monster allies. All I'm saying is that in an environment where all pairings and encounters are on ECL/CR that the possibility of an encounter 2 ECL beyond your own w/o any compensentory combat advantages doesn't seam to fit into the style of the environment. And to claim that, "It all averages out" is not a satisfying justification.
Macbrea 02-08-07, 05:14 PM	Wk 2: ECL 8 Inter-league - Loss vs Little Daisy [ECL 8] with Izumi (ECL 6) & partner Giant Wasp (CR3)(Zevox) Crazy mismatches occur....
MitzaVolchenko 02-08-07, 05:23 PM	And two is an EL 6 encounter. And no! An average EL 7 character should not be able to handle that easily. Not easily at all. An average EL 7 character should have about a 50/50 chance of winning that encounter, assuming they take it as seriously as they would a battle against an ECL 7 gladiator. High or low rolls on the d4 will affect that chance, as will high or low rolls in a fight. It all averages out. Of course, dragons are WotC's admitted CR-breakers, but I think it's above and beyond our duties to reassign CRs across the board. But is in within our duties to change one encounter because of one complaint? That doesn't play. If it all even sout, why am I running your fight with a dumbed down encounter instead of what everyone else gets which is "it all evens out?" Just as with the Indi-World Event isue, fixing one situation is not acceptable to me. Fix the whole issue. Anything else is just a band aid that gets applied in only single situations. I agree that what I rolled was too strong for the ECL bracket, but I do not agree with your character getting a break when nobody else does.
hogarth 02-08-07, 05:30 PM	But is in within our duties to change one encounter because of one complaint? That doesn't play. If it all even sout, why am I running your fight with a dumbed down encounter instead of what everyone else gets which is "it all evens out?" I think MWB is saying that all of the 1d3+1 rolls in that one particular table (EL 4) should be 1d3 or 2d2-1, otherwise it doesn't "even out" to EL 4, it evens out to EL 5.
Rauul 02-08-07, 05:33 PM	When making a drow charater, who had 10+ levels of Alchemy.. will they be able to brew up thier Drow Sleep poison.. Or do they need something else to make this racial poison that is thier racial advantage to use.. Also can Said drow go on a Quest/MiniQuest to get a Special Mount.. a Giant Spider :P
hogarth 02-08-07, 05:36 PM	When making a drow charater, who had 10+ levels of Alchemy.. will they be able to brew up thier Drow Sleep poison.. The skill needed is Craft (poisonmaking), not Alchemy. Anyone with the required skill can make it. Also can Said drow go on a Quest/MiniQuest to get a Special Mount.. a Giant Spider :P If you have a high enough Handle Animal skill modifier (+14 for a Large spider), yes. Note that a Large spider is CR 2, so you couldn't bring it in until level 6.
Caterane 02-08-07, 05:46 PM	Now it's official! Gollum was a Nazi! http://www.caterane.de/CoCo/Ablage/Gollum-Nazi.jpg http://www.jaysunn.de/images/smiles/x%20(32).gif
MindWandererB 02-08-07, 06:07 PM	I think MWB is saying that all of the 1d3+1 rolls in that one particular table (EL 4) should be 1d3 or 2d2-1, otherwise it doesn't "even out" to EL 4, it evens out to EL 5. Close... for CR 2 monsters, they should. 1d3+1 CR 2 monsters averages to EL 5, not 4. However, I should mention that I was always against random numbers of opponents. They should be EL-matched every time, IMO. But given that they are random, I can live with a high roll. I cannot live with a high average.
Macbrea 02-08-07, 06:33 PM	Hey.. aren't you breaking a law in your country cat by mentioning them?
sonofzeal 02-08-07, 06:33 PM	If I may venture my opinion... IMO, a character's chance of winning an encounter should be directly based on how strong that character is. If the spread of possible enemies is too great, then some of the time it's more or less a free win and some of the times it's an automatic loss. Both of these cases totally ignore the power of the character, and IMO that distorts the nature of the game. Simple example - say you have a strong character, capable of winning 75% of the time against supposedly even odds. Yay you! Then say that you're generating 1d3 monsters for each encounter, and that at your level, 1 monster is a free win and 3 monsters is an automatic loss. All of a sudden, your 75% win chance is down to a 58.3% win chance - barely better than an average 50% winning player. Same goes for some 25% win chance n00b like me - all of a sudden I'm up to 41.7% win chance! ....as a player, I personally would rather win when I deserve to.
TheMagister 02-08-07, 07:03 PM	....as a player, I personally would rather win when I deserve to. Oh, well said! Now if you can just convince the dice to follow that credo... {Darn you, Durin!!!} TM
Caterane 02-08-07, 07:07 PM	@Macbrea: No. Only if you justify their crimes or deny the holocaust. I've studied history; how could I've done that without using that designation.
TelinArtho 02-08-07, 09:38 PM	If you have a high enough Handle Animal skill modifier (+14 for a Large spider), yes. Note that a Large spider is CR 2, so you couldn't bring it in until level 6. Also note that vermin are houseruled to 3 tricks maximum. This means they will never qualify for combat riding - and therefore are not suitable for mounts in battle - ie - you need to make a control mount check each round as a move action...
MindWandererB 02-08-07, 09:44 PM	Also note that vermin are houseruled to 3 tricks maximum. This means they will never qualify for combat riding - and therefore are not suitable for mounts in battle - ie - you need to make a control mount check each round as a move action... And that houserule is the only thing allowing them to learn tricks at all.
TheMagister 02-08-07, 10:24 PM	Ah! The RP possiblities we kill for the sake of the RAW! Buy yourself a light warhorse and call it a giant spider. This specific giant spider is not poisonous and cannot climb and...well...it's not much of a spider. Hmm. What else is there that could double as a giant spider? Say, a CR 1-3 monster. It should be poisonous and be able to climb.
sonofzeal 02-08-07, 11:34 PM	Also note that vermin are houseruled to 3 tricks maximum. This means they will never qualify for combat riding - and therefore are not suitable for mounts in battle - ie - you need to make a control mount check each round as a move action... You couldn't train it for combat riding (6 tricks), but you could train it for general-purpose riding (3 tricks). It couldn't attack on command, but it'd still be useful.
TelinArtho 02-08-07, 11:43 PM	A snake?
TheMagister 02-08-07, 11:57 PM	would need to be big...and fast
Zevox 02-09-07, 12:06 AM	But a Necromancer cleric should be able to bring in 1.. just 1 of thier undead thats equal to or 1-3 hd bigger than they are since it's under thier complete control.. Um, they can once you get up beyond the low levels. Skeletons and Zombies tend to have fairly low CR for their HD. So for instance, a level 7 Cleric can bring in a 10 HD Zombie with no problem. A level 8 can have a 9 HD skeleton or up to a 14 HD Zombie. Its just the lowest levels, where that ECL-4 cap means CR 1 is all you can get, that you can't bring in bigger undead. Take into account the number of auto-loss monster fights out there. Ask Featylec if he thinks it is fair. Actually, I don't mind that much. I do think our idiotic rule that players can't auto-win while monsters can is unfair (either allow both or neither is my opinion - and you'll shortly see which I think it should be), but the fact that there are monsters that auto-beat many opponents 1-on-1 is just a given to begin with. Its the flaw with the idea of monster vs character 1-on-1 to begin with. Since monster battles aren't going to be removed from the CoCo, its unavoidable; so I say so be it. Which I actually find strange--there are few PvP fights that are auto-losses because people are prepared for them. We rarely have characters in full plate with no ranged weapon, or spellcasters that pack nothing but Sleep and Magic Missile, because those are just too easy to negate. So why do players always forget to pack cold iron and oil of Bless Weapon for demons, torches and/or acid for swarms, and so on? Perhaps because of how rare they are? I can tell you I've been here for over a year, and I can still count the number of monster battles my characters have been in on one hand, and my first didn't happen until I'd been here nearly half a year (and I'm sure you know how many characters I have compared to most other players around here). Its not a common event, so its often not worth it to prepare for it. Plus, there are many monsters that are auto-losses simply because of how powerful they are for their CR. 5 headed Hydra at CR 4 anybody? How do you prepare for that 1-on-1? However, I should mention that I was always against random numbers of opponents. They should be EL-matched every time, IMO. Ironically, this was a suggestion I was about to make after reading the arguments here - just change the random number of creatures to a flat number that fits the CR you're supposed to get like a glove. But if you already thought thats a good idea, why the Nine Hells do we have random numbers of monsters on our custom-made lists? Surely Cat can't possibly claim theres something good that comes of that, can he? Zevox
TheMagister 02-09-07, 12:09 AM	Bingo! And easy, too. Make the Giant Spider planar (celestial or fiendish). All planar creatures have at least 3 intelligence. Of course, since the a Large Spider has 4 HD, you're looking at a CR 3 Mount. But they don't hand out spider mounts to just any drow, so that can wait until ECL 5, don't you think?
Prisonlords 02-09-07, 12:24 AM	Ladies and gentlemen, I have a few announcements to make: 1) As some of you have seen, a new thread has opened, entitled The Courtroom of Gladius. This thread will replace the Oracle thread, but still serve the same basic function. The reason for this change is so that I can keep up that thread as well as the Prison. Due to popular demand, I have moved the Court Decisions post out of the Prison and they now reside at the beginning of the Courtroom in order to make them more accessible and easier to find. I will still maintain them as normal, but this, I think, will help everyone know where to look for things. The Courtroom is open, so feel free to use it. 2) After a discussion with Cat, we have determined that map credits are diluting our credit pool, and making other avenues of obtaining credits (such as violation reporting), less desireable. Therefore, effective immediately, map credits are no longer being issued. Since the addition of Dracazar's mapper, they have become trivially easy to earn. Those that don't map continue to not do so, and those that do will most likely continue to do so. We felt that all we were really doing here was giving away credits for small gains. Some of you may feel this is unfair, but for those of you that were around before the mapper came into being, you will remember how rare it was to see a map in a fight. Nowadays, for some that have never done it any other way, using the mapper is just part of running a fight. 3) The values awarded for reporting Violations and performing Audits in the Prison have changed. Previously violations were worth 0.1° per post. Now, they are worth 0.3° per post. Audit credits were formerly awarded at a rate of 0.3° per level audited. That has now increased to 0.5° per level audited. This is to both compensate in a small way for the loss of map credits, but to also encourage more earnings in these areas. The Prison has been deathly silent for weeks, with only the occasional post. I'd like to see that change. 4) In order to make it easier for me to track credits, everyone that has ever earned a credit from the Prison has had their credit earnings adjusted upward to the nearest new increment of credit awarded. As an example, if someone had previously earned 0.2° for violations, they have been bumped to 0.3° earned. If someone had 6.3° earned from audits, they have been rounded up to 6.5°. Anyone that had partial map credits was rounded up to the nearest whole number, resulting in many of you earning a final credit from your maps. I didn't want anyone to have to forfeit work performed under the old rules, and this seemed the fairest way to make that happen. So below is the list of credits earned prior to these changes, as well as a list of how the credits earned will look after these changes. I have also included a list of all parties earning full credits due to these changes, so that anyone that wants to can see what they may have received. Name............... V-Credits A-Credits M-Credits Issued Abyssal Stalker.... 01.0° ... 00.0° ... 17.4° ... 18° AegisShade......... 00.1° ... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 00° Altaris13.......... 00.3° ... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 00° Argaud............. 00.5° ... 00.0° ... 07.6° ... 07° Ariel23............ 02.2° ... 00.0° ... 01.2° ... 03° Ayrynthyn.......... 00.1° ... 00.0° ... 00.1° ... 00° ayyiniwindryder.... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 05.0° ... 05° barrel_master...... 00.1° ... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 00° Begferdeth......... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 01.5° ... 01° bgt................ 00.0° ... 02.0° ... 01.0° ... 03° Biota.............. 01.1° ... 00.0° ... 05.1° ... 06° Blazinghand........ 00.1° ... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 00° bluemage55......... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 01.5° ... 01° Book5.............. 00.2° ... 00.0° ... 00.5° ... 00° Caterane........... 00.9° ... 00.0° ... 11.7° ... 11° Dracazar........... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 05.7° ... 05° Dr. Funk........... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 01.0° ... 01° DSugui............. 01.1° ... 00.0° ... 48.2° ... 49° DTFarstar.......... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 02.5° ... 02° Erithmu............ 01.4° ... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 01° Etiquette_Gnome.... 00.2° ... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 00° False_Keraptis..... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 02.0° ... 02° funnymanmike....... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 01.2° ... 01° Gonbow............. 00.9° ... 00.0° ... 01.2° ... 01° graymocker......... 00.1° ... 00.0° ... 01.1° ... 01° Hawkeye_60......... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 00.5° ... 00° Highfire........... 00.2° ... 00.0° ... 01.4° ... 01° Hirumajoe.......... 00.1° ... 00.0° ... 05.8° ... 05° hogarth............ 03.3° ... 00.0° ... 06.9° ... 09° Iced............... 00.2° ... 00.0° ... 02.8° ... 02° ithinkimnothere.... 00.1° ... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 00° Kaigan............. 00.2° ... 00.0° ... 05.7° ... 05° King Uther......... 00.2° ... 00.0° ... 11.6° ... 11° Krytos............. 00.1° ... 00.0° ... 05.0° ... 05° LLMadCow........... 00.0° ... 10.3° ... 00.0° ... 10° lonewolf........... 00.6° ... 00.0° ... 19.0° ... 19° lucanthrope........ 00.4° ... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 00° Luni............... 02.4° ... 00.0° ... 01.0° ... 03° Macbrea............ 00.5° ... 00.0° ... 12.1° ... 12° Mal-2.............. 00.2° ... 00.0° ... 00.9° ... 00° malakaiunseen...... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 01.5° ... 01° Maraxus............ 00.7° ... 00.0° ... 05.4° ... 05° mattes............. 00.1° ... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 00° McJarvis........... 00.9° ... 00.0° ... 18.0° ... 18° Mind Rogue......... 00.5° ... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 00° MindWandererB...... 01.3° ... 00.0° ... 18.2° ... 19° MitzaVolchenko..... 00.1° ... 00.0° ... 15.8° ... 15° Myrridin........... 00.1° ... 00.0° ... 01.3° ... 01° MysticMonk2005..... 00.1° ... 00.0° ... 01.5° ... 01° nickbeat........... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 02.5° ... 02° nightbanegod....... 00.1° ... 03.0° ... 00.0° ... 03° NiQil.............. 18.2° ... 13.0° ... 00.0° ... 31° Papapeperoni....... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 02.0° ... 02° Pittbull........... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 13.1° ... 13° Rauul.............. 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 00.5° ... 00° renlim............. 00.1° ... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 00° Ribking............ 00.1° ... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 00° SauroGrenom........ 00.3° ... 06.3° ... 14.1° ... 20° Setzertrancer...... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 00.5° ... 00° shadowmaster....... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 01.4° ... 01° Sindorin........... 00.2° ... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 00° Sjiggie............ 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 00.5° ... 00° Skojar............. 00.1° ... 00.0° ... 05.6° ... 05° Sloisel............ 00.3° ... 01.3° ... 00.0° ... 01° Snommelp........... 00.7° ... 01.0° ... 00.0° ... 01° spasheridan........ 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 00.1° ... 00° StoneTree.......... 00.1° ... 00.0° ... 04.2° ... 04° Stormwind.......... 00.1° ... 00.0° ... 01.0° ... 01° Sunwolf............ 01.5° ... 01.0° ... 00.0° ... 02° TelinArtho......... 16.9° ... 11.0° ... 05.6° ... 32° Tellish_of_Ket..... 00.2° ... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 00° TheMagister........ 01.3° ... 00.0° ... 14.2° ... 15° Traevanon.......... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 04.5° ... 04° Turin.............. 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 08.4° ... 08° UserNamer.......... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 01.6° ... 01° Usurpator.......... 02.8° ... 01.6° ... 04.5° ... 07° Vathelokai......... 00.1° ... 00.0° ... 03.0° ... 03° Warclone........... 00.1° ... 00.0° ... 00.7° ... 00° waywreth........... 01.0° ... 00.0° ... 00.4° ... 01° Zelck.............. 00.8° ... 00.0° ... 10.4° ... 10° Zevox.............. 03.7° ... 00.0° ... 39.8° ... 42° Name............... V-Credits A-Credits M-Credits Issued Abyssal Stalker.... 01.0° ... 00.0° ... 18.0° ... 19° AegisShade......... 00.3° ... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 00° Altaris13.......... 00.3° ... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 00° Argaud............. 00.6° ... 00.0° ... 08.0° ... 08° Ariel23............ 02.3° ... 00.0° ... 02.0° ... 04° Ayrynthyn.......... 00.3° ... 00.0° ... 01.0° ... 01° ayyiniwindryder.... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 05.0° ... 05° barrel_master...... 00.3° ... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 00° Begferdeth......... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 02.0° ... 02° bgt................ 00.0° ... 02.0° ... 01.0° ... 03° Biota.............. 01.3° ... 00.0° ... 06.0° ... 07° Blazinghand........ 00.3° ... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 00° bluemage55......... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 02.0° ... 02° Book5.............. 00.3° ... 00.0° ... 01.0° ... 01° Caterane........... 01.0° ... 00.0° ... 12.0° ... 13° Dracazar........... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 06.0° ... 06° Dr. Funk........... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 01.0° ... 01° DSugui............. 01.3° ... 00.0° ... 49.0° ... 50° DTFarstar.......... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 03.0° ... 03° Erithmu............ 01.6° ... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 01° Etiquette_Gnome.... 00.3° ... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 00° False_Keraptis..... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 02.0° ... 02° funnymanmike....... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 02.0° ... 02° Gonbow............. 01.0° ... 00.0° ... 02.0° ... 03° graymocker......... 00.3° ... 00.0° ... 02.0° ... 02° Hawkeye_60......... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 01.0° ... 01° Highfire........... 00.3° ... 00.0° ... 02.0° ... 02° Hirumajoe.......... 00.3° ... 00.0° ... 06.0° ... 06° hogarth............ 03.3° ... 00.0° ... 07.0° ... 10° Iced............... 00.3° ... 00.0° ... 03.0° ... 03° ithinkimnothere.... 00.3° ... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 00° Kaigan............. 00.3° ... 00.0° ... 06.0° ... 06° King Uther......... 00.3° ... 00.0° ... 12.0° ... 12° Krytos............. 00.3° ... 00.0° ... 05.0° ... 05° LLMadCow........... 00.0° ... 10.5° ... 00.0° ... 10° lonewolf........... 00.6° ... 00.0° ... 19.0° ... 19° lucanthrope........ 00.6° ... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 00° Luni............... 02.6° ... 00.0° ... 01.0° ... 03° Macbrea............ 00.6° ... 00.0° ... 13.0° ... 13° Mal-2.............. 00.3° ... 00.0° ... 01.0° ... 01° malakaiunseen...... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 02.0° ... 02° Maraxus............ 01.0° ... 00.0° ... 06.0° ... 07° mattes............. 00.3° ... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 00° McJarvis........... 01.0° ... 00.0° ... 18.0° ... 19° Mind Rogue......... 00.6° ... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 00° MindWandererB...... 01.3° ... 00.0° ... 19.0° ... 20° MitzaVolchenko..... 00.3° ... 00.0° ... 16.0° ... 16° Myrridin........... 00.3° ... 00.0° ... 02.0° ... 02° MysticMonk2005..... 00.3° ... 00.0° ... 02.0° ... 02° nickbeat........... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 03.0° ... 03° nightbanegod....... 00.3° ... 03.0° ... 00.0° ... 03° NiQil.............. 18.3° ... 13.0° ... 00.0° ... 31° Papapeperoni....... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 02.0° ... 02° Pittbull........... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 14.0° ... 14° Rauul.............. 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 01.0° ... 01° renlim............. 00.3° ... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 00° Ribking............ 00.3° ... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 00° SauroGrenom........ 00.3° ... 06.5° ... 15.0° ... 21° Setzertrancer...... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 01.0° ... 01° shadowmaster....... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 02.0° ... 02° Sindorin........... 00.3° ... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 00° Sjiggie............ 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 01.0° ... 01° Skojar............. 00.3° ... 00.0° ... 06.0° ... 06° Sloisel............ 00.3° ... 01.5° ... 00.0° ... 01° Snommelp........... 01.0° ... 01.0° ... 00.0° ... 02° spasheridan........ 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 01.0° ... 01° StoneTree.......... 00.3° ... 00.0° ... 05.0° ... 05° Stormwind.......... 00.3° ... 00.0° ... 01.0° ... 01° Sunwolf............ 01.6° ... 01.0° ... 00.0° ... 02° TelinArtho......... 17.0° ... 11.0° ... 06.0° ... 34° Tellish_of_Ket..... 00.3° ... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 00° TheMagister........ 01.3° ... 00.0° ... 15.0° ... 16° Traevanon.......... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 05.0° ... 05° Turin.............. 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 09.0° ... 09° UserNamer.......... 00.0° ... 00.0° ... 02.0° ... 02° Usurpator.......... 03.0° ... 02.0° ... 05.0° ... 10° Vathelokai......... 00.3° ... 00.0° ... 03.0° ... 03° Warclone........... 00.3° ... 00.0° ... 01.0° ... 01° waywreth........... 01.0° ... 00.0° ... 01.0° ... 02° Zelck.............. 01.0° ... 00.0° ... 11.0° ... 12° Zevox.............. 04.0° ... 00.0° ... 40.0° ... 44° Abyssal Stalker +1 Argaud +1 Ariel23 +1 Ayrynthyn +1 Begferdeth +1 Biota +1 bluemage55 +1 Book5 +1 Caterane +2 Dracazar +1 DSugui +1 DTFarstar +1 funnymanmike +1 Gonbow +2 graymocker +1 Hawkeye_60 +1 Highfire +1 Hirumajoe +1 hogarth +1 Iced +1 Kaigan +1 King Uther +1 Macbrea +1 Mal-2 +1 malakaiunseen +1 Maraxus +2 McJarvis +1 MindWandererB +1 MitzaVolchenko +1 Myrridin +1 MysticMonk2005 +1 nickbeat +1 Pittbull +1 Rauul +1 SauroGrenom +1 Setzertrancer +1 shadowmaster +1 Sjiggie +1 Skojar +1 Snommelp +1 spasheridan +1 StoneTree +1 TelinArtho +2 TheMagister +1 Traevanon +1 Turin +1 UserNamer +1 Usurpator +3 Warclone +1 waywreth +1 Zelck +2 Zevox +2 As always, if you have any questions, feel free to PM me.
MindWandererB 02-09-07, 12:31 AM	Ironically, this was a suggestion I was about to make after reading the arguments here - just change the random number of creatures to a flat number that fits the CR you're supposed to get like a glove. But if you already thought thats a good idea, why the Nine Hells do we have random numbers of monsters on our custom-made lists? Surely Cat can't possibly claim theres something good that comes of that, can he?You bet he did. He thought that 1) the DMG lists already have random numbers of enemies, and 2) if you know the exact number, you can more easily deduce your opponent's identity without Knowledge ranks.
Zevox 02-09-07, 12:44 AM	You bet he did. He thought that 1) the DMG lists already have random numbers of enemies, and 2) if you know the exact number, you can more easily deduce your opponent's identity without Knowledge ranks. To the former I say - so what? That has no bearing on whether its balanced in our environment, which is far different from what the DMG's tables were designed for. And to the latter, I'd point out that its pretty easy to determine already, or at least to narrow down based on the simple description, so you really only need contingencies for two or three (usually very similar) foes at worst in most cases. Plus I'd say keeping that little extra difficulty in determining your foe isn't worth keeping a random possibility of having a potentially heavily imbalanced encounter. Its one thing to run against a monster type you can't beat, but another entirely to run into an auto-loss because the encounter was randomly determined to be 1-2 CRs above your ECL (after all, didn't we get rid of the "roll on a higher/lower table" option specifically to prevent that?). :nonono: Zevox
Rauul 02-09-07, 01:48 AM	Bingo! And easy, too. Make the Giant Spider planar (celestial or fiendish). All planar creatures have at least 3 intelligence. Of course, since the a Large Spider has 4 HD, you're looking at a CR 3 Mount. But they don't hand out spider mounts to just any drow, so that can wait until ECL 5, don't you think? So an ECL 5 charater with a Fiendish Large Spider would need how much handle animal to train it for combat? 15+? A Fiendish large Spider is 4HD CR3 mount with DR/and Magic weapon attacks... To bad Spiders go from 2HD to 4HD.. and no 3HD :( O-well time to start collecting credits.. to bad a Wizard can't get a Small spider for a Famililar :)
TheMagister 02-09-07, 01:50 AM	Ya got me there. Isn't there something in the Rules of Gladius thread? If it's not on the list of Handle Animal allies, you might have to work up some credits and get ask for the creature in the black market. TM
TelinArtho 02-09-07, 01:53 AM	Templated creatures are a no-go... So just strike that one from the possibilities (and be thankful for it as well - templates can create some nasty combinations for really low CR/ECL)
TheMagister 02-09-07, 01:59 AM	Speaking of nasty combinations: Why hasn't anyone made a druid with a rust monster pet? :hides:
DSugui 02-09-07, 09:09 AM	Hello everybody. I`ve been away for the last few weeks due some RL problems, but now I have some time to post again. Most likely, I won`t have time to run fights (maybe 1/week) but occasionally I will put one of my gladiators to fight. It will take some time for me to catch up these past weeks, but I`m around. I am looking forward for the Ironman Tournament - any news about it?
TelinArtho 02-09-07, 09:11 AM	March 14th. That's about all I know - and welcome back of course.
Abyssal Stalker 02-09-07, 09:21 AM	Welcome back!
Erithmu 02-09-07, 10:30 AM	Questlord wanted: Looking for a questlord for Loddick to start Feb 21. It is going to be a RP quest to assess the strengths and weaknesses of the Luna March Swampers. While this could be a mission, I want to succeed so that he will be ready in time for the Iron man on Mar 14th. (I'm going to be gone all weekend, PM me or just post here and I'll catch it on my Sunday 'reading')
Zevox 02-09-07, 10:35 AM	It will take some time for me to catch up these past weeks, but I`m around. I am looking forward for the Ironman Tournament - any news about it? Latest info on that is in Cat's post here. March 14th start date, any ECL 10, ECL 9, or team of ECL 8s or 7s can enter. He said he'd open an application thread for entrants to be submitted, which we're still waiting for. I imagine we'll get the concrete details when thats opened. Oh and yeah, welcome back, good to see you again! :) Zevox
Macbrea 02-09-07, 10:53 AM	So, for those that are curious.. PLAYER Rating Wins Losses Pittbull 2026 19 3 Caterane 2023 76 11 TheMagister 1558 18 5 Sindorin 1499 10 6 Sunwolf 1384 49 31 McJarvis 1341 12 0 SauroGrenom 1308 26 15 Gonbow 1300 13 8 SoulLord 1297 17 9 waywreth 1287 20 8 hogarth 1273 25 9 Sutro 1273 3 0 Zevox 1250 62 30 Spasheridan 1238 12 8 Maraxus 1231 39 27 MindWandererB 1178 36 21 Etiquette_Gnome 1133 12 7 orsono 1126 4 3 Iced 1102 15 10 Erithmu 1094 27 18 Sjiggie 1084 5 3 renlim 1081 2 1 Abyssal Stalker 1033 22 19 Eluria 1030 1 1 Milov 1007 11 14 Always-Late 1000 0 0 UserNamer 1000 1 1 NiQil 988 7 7 TelinArtho 966 58 70 Ravashack 955 14 33 DSugui 947 20 19 c00lz3 932 5 7 Rauul 922 2 4 webscav 916 0 1 Hirumajoe 896 10 10 Vathelokai 873 26 44 MitzaVolchenko 845 9 15 nightbanegod 835 2 4 Hrothmund 833 3 5 Macbrea 825 14 24 TwoPi 823 0 2
Macbrea 02-09-07, 10:54 AM	That of course is only the characters that are on the roster.
TelinArtho 02-09-07, 01:16 PM	Which for me in particular - and definitely NiQil - is pretty deceptive... I have had 22 characters over the course of my time here (well posted and in at least one fight... I'm over 30 of characters I have created), but only 10 of them are on the roster... Interesting numbers though.
Macbrea 02-09-07, 01:21 PM	Yes, I realized when i did those that it was only based on characters we have in the roster. Some people have characters that they keep around because they are their fun ones, that have absolutely horrid records. You will notice I am at the bottom of the list. :P And rating is based on average rating of all characters under your name.
Zevox 02-09-07, 01:39 PM	Heh, yeah, the numbers would be different if every character we had were included. TM definitely wouldn't be #3 if Sdentch were still on the list :P . I'd probably still be about the same though I think - of my four retired characters, Indrithia had pretty bad rating, Alboreth had a pretty good one (mostly due to luck, but he had it anyway), Destra's was more or less even, and Aldyrr barely had one (kept him for only 3 fights). Plus theres a few of us who have had frozen battles that didn't impact our win/loss or PR. Asran had one victory to boost him, Va'ria would be Great Reknown if her three Guild Interceptions were included, Sunwolf's Leif would be lower due to his defeats by Team WAR and Va'ria, Cat's Uhme would have another win under his belt, etc. Still, interesting nonetheless. Zevox
sonofzeal 02-09-07, 02:25 PM	How does Expansion stack with Enlarge Person?
Macbrea 02-09-07, 02:29 PM	No.. you can only be one type of size changer at a time.
hogarth 02-09-07, 02:33 PM	How does Expansion stack with Enlarge Person? They overlap. They don't stack.
sonofzeal 02-09-07, 02:34 PM	No.. you can only be one type of size changer at a time. Is that RAW, or houseruled? Either way, it makes sense as a balancing factor.
TelinArtho 02-09-07, 02:36 PM	This is RAW - look in both the spell and power: Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack. Multiple effects that increase size do not stack, which means (among other things) that you can’t use a second manifestation of this power to further expand yourself.
Macbrea 02-09-07, 02:38 PM	Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack,. So, basic rules state you cannot. EDIT: Bah! beaten to it!
MindWandererB 02-09-07, 02:39 PM	What is a houserule is that neither stack with shape-changing effects that happen to change your size. For instance, a human using Alter Self and Enlarge Person could become a Large troglodtye, but a halfling could not do the same. Similarly, much to my regret, my Besthirah (were dire bat) can't become Huge without a 9 PP Expansion.
TheMagister 02-09-07, 07:13 PM	TheMagister 1558 18 5 Whee! I'm great reknown! Who wants to be my cohort?
Vathelokai 02-09-07, 11:41 PM	TheMagister 1558 18 5 Whee! I'm great reknown! Who wants to be my cohort? Oh! Oh! Me! Of course, I'm a failure, so you might have to think about that a bit... :D
TheMagister 02-09-07, 11:53 PM	We'll average out to your everyday ordinary pair of fools, then. "Onward to Gladius, and idiocy!" :pint:
TheMagister 02-10-07, 02:48 AM	I'm gonna go ahead and build a TWF-er like we were discussing, but not in the direction that Vath was taking (gotta love how discussions spark ideas! MAN I like this place!). However, I'm having a crisis of memory. Powers like Metaphysical Weapon and Strength of my Enemy will be critical to my build. The language in the power stat blocks (example: "Target: Weapon Touched") and descriptions (example: "Metaphysical Weapon gives a weapon a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls.") leads me to think that a double weapon would need only one manifestation of the power and both ends would be affected. For some reason, that just doesn't sit right with me. Maybe it's the item creation rules that I'm thinking of, where each head has to be enchanted seperately. But I can't think of anywhere I've ever read that says that temporary spell/power enhancements follow that same rule! Please direct me to such a passage before I go too far into this. Thanks, guys! TM
NiQil 02-10-07, 03:17 AM	On a psionically-related note, I have a question of my own... The use of feats such as psionic shot to affect powers manifested from a powerstone, dorje or psicrown is allowed. See here, in round 4 between Wildfire and Maya Redwine, for an example of this occuring with dorje use. Does this mean that the use of a wilder's Wild Surge ability is also allowed to amplify powers manifested from the same items?
TheMagister 02-10-07, 03:53 AM	Adamant is mostly done, but still under construction. Take a look, and tell me what you think. I'm still fleshing him out (he's two-dimensional at the moment, but it's two darned good dimensions). What he really needs is speed. I figure skate can take care of that. I really don't wanna go with speed of thought, so I guess I'll be buying my speed. I like the concept, but I'm not sure I'm squeaking everything I can outta his power selection. Hey, a psywar can only learn so many, you know? Maybe if I prestige into warmind? Hmmm.... TM
TheMagister 02-10-07, 04:05 AM	On a psionically-related note, I have a question of my own... The use of feats such as psionic shot to affect powers manifested from a powerstone, dorje or psicrown is allowed. See here, in round 4 between Wildfire and Maya Redwine, for an example of this occuring with dorje use. Does this mean that the use of a wilder's Wild Surge ability is also allowed to amplify powers manifested from the same items? My gut tells me, "Lord, I hope not." In the Psionic Items section of the XPH under "Dorjes - activation", it says that "A dorje's wielder cannot augment the power contained within the dorje." So for dorjes, I don't think so. For power stones, all I can report is that it says that "A powerstone's manifester level is always the minimum level required to manifest the power for the character that created the stone, unless the creator specifically desires otherwise." Sounds like it doesn't matter what the user can contribute (aside from the minimum requirements of using the stone at all). Even with psicrowns it specifies that "The user can't manifest a power from a psicrown using his own power points." Doesn't look like a wilder would be able to wild surge a power from an item. Psionic Shot doesn't augment a power, it just adds additional damage potential to ranged attacks. Since it's so general, we have to let it apply to any ranged attack, regardless of which method the attacking character uses to deliver the attack. Heck, you could technically spit in someone's face and have it do zero + 2d6 non-lethal damage. Wait...well? Why not? TM
NiQil 02-10-07, 07:21 AM	Assuming what you say is true....then on the flip-side, can you purchase powerstones or dorjes that are augmented with Wild Surge at the time of creation? If no, why not? If yes, then what would you pay for the Wild Surge, since the Wild Surge doesn't cost the creater any PP?
Maraxus 02-10-07, 07:22 AM	Heck, you could technically spit in someone's face and have it do zero + 2d6 non-lethal damage. Wait...well? Why not? TM You'd deal 1+2d6. It's allways minimum damage of 1. Don't spit to often, 3 spits can kill a commoner.
Eluria 02-10-07, 12:31 PM	Random question - when someone does a free activity, like scribing scrolls, as long as it's for less than 1000gp, they can do it and fight that week too, from what I understand. Do you just write what you're scribing at the top of your sheet, and let the Pitlord include that in the afterfight summary? (e.g., is this written up correctly: Qwogi). Thanks for the help, and forgive me if this is a retarded question - I haven't slept in 34 hours!
Zevox 02-10-07, 12:59 PM	Random question - when someone does a free activity, like scribing scrolls, as long as it's for less than 1000gp, they can do it and fight that week too, from what I understand. Do you just write what you're scribing at the top of your sheet, and let the Pitlord include that in the afterfight summary? (e.g., is this written up correctly: Qwogi). Thanks for the help, and forgive me if this is a retarded question - I haven't slept in 34 hours! Yup, what you've got is perfect. Just note that you won't be able to use those scrolls until after your 3 fight cycle (this is to prevent characters from getting around the "no buying things in mid-cycle" rule by crafting). Zevox
MindWandererB 02-10-07, 03:25 PM	Yup, what you've got is perfect.Almost; we don't pay XP costs for item creation. Otherwise, it's fine.
Vathelokai 02-11-07, 01:06 AM	Can't find a rule I'm looking for... When you purchase a light warhorse, does it come with specific training? I know you need combat riding to have it wear barding properly, but do they all come with that? I don't want to go all out custom; just wondering about the other training packages that are under handle animal. And where might the costs for having someone else train animals be found?
MindWandererB 02-11-07, 01:09 AM	Until very recently, warhorses have come with the Combat Riding package. Zevox recently suggested that they might haveany tricks you like. However, while trying to look for this just now, I found:Combat Riding (DC 20): An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel. Training an animal for combat riding takes six weeks. You may also “upgrade” an animal trained for riding to one trained for combat riding by spending three weeks and making a successful DC 20 Handle Animal check. The new general purpose and tricks completely replace the animal’s previous purpose and any tricks it once knew. Warhorses and riding dogs are already trained to bear riders into combat, and they don’t require any additional training for this purpose.So there you go. That's what they get.
Rauul 02-11-07, 02:24 AM	Back to My Drow wanting a Fiendish large Spider as a mount.. he would have to be ECL 8 with leadership, Diplomicy, Handle animal, Riding and go on a miniquest to get it, as a Cohort.. Correct?
hogarth 02-11-07, 08:32 AM	Can't find a rule I'm looking for... When you purchase a light warhorse, does it come with specific training? I know you need combat riding to have it wear barding properly, but do they all come with that? I don't want to go all out custom; just wondering about the other training packages that are under handle animal. Here's what it says in the "Rules of Gladius": You may buy any one of the nine basic animals listed in the "Goods and Services" table (PHB,p129). Normally, these animals come trained but you may optionally request them to be untrained. If you choose so, then the animal knows no trick at all but you can train it (or have it trained for money if you can't do it) to your liking. It doesn't say "these animals come trained with the Combat Riding package", and indeed that wouldn't make much sense for a guard dog. My understanding is that you can select any six tricks you like, or none at all, but then that clause about "you can train it to your liking" makes no sense. The cost for buying training is 50 per trick (according the NPC services part of the RoG): Fees for Animal Trainers: Basic Animals.......50 gp (per trick)
Caterane 02-11-07, 10:05 AM	That means you pick the animal out of the MM. If you want to customize its preset tricks you have to take it untrained and apply the desired tricks yourself.
Horatius 02-11-07, 03:26 PM	Hi, Just posted a new character, Le Petit Guepe, for the upcoming cycle. Comments/suggestions welcome. Thanks
hogarth 02-11-07, 05:44 PM	That means you pick the animal out of the MM. If you want to customize its preset tricks you have to take it untrained and apply the desired tricks yourself. But what is the "usual" (i.e. un-customized) set of tricks for a donkey? Or a guard dog? It doesn't say in the Monster Manual, does it?
Caterane 02-11-07, 05:44 PM	@Horatius: I can't find your domains
Horatius 02-11-07, 07:06 PM	@Horatius: I can't find your domains Thanks.
MindWandererB 02-11-07, 08:18 PM	Hi, Just posted a new character, Le Petit Guepe, for the upcoming cycle. Comments/suggestions welcome. ThanksHm, specialized archer-cleric with Magic domain. Has potential. Good luck with that. But what is the "usual" (i.e. un-customized) set of tricks for a donkey? Or a guard dog? It doesn't say in the Monster Manual, does it?You're right, it doesn't. I'd personally go with Guarding for the guard dog and Heavy Labor for the mule.
sonofzeal 02-11-07, 08:35 PM	Right, finally posted a character. Went with Druid instead of a grappler of some kind; I'll save the grappler for later, I think. The one thing I wasn't sure about was gp value for expendable items. Is that per-fight (in which case I'm hopefully fine) or total?
Zevox 02-11-07, 09:04 PM	Right, finally posted a character. Went with Druid instead of a grappler of some kind; I'll save the grappler for later, I think. The one thing I wasn't sure about was gp value for expendable items. Is that per-fight (in which case I'm hopefully fine) or total? Its total - you cannot own more expendables (scrolls, potions, powerstones, or psionic tattoos) than your ECL2 x 50 (translates to a 450 gp max at level 3, 800 gp at level 4, and so on). So yes, you're over the limit with 3 potions of Enlarge Person. Hi, Just posted a new character, Le Petit Guepe, for the upcoming cycle. Comments/suggestions welcome. Thanks Minor error: you have a composite longbow designed for +2 strength. You only have a 10 strength, which means not only do you not get the +2 damage its designed for, you take -2 to your attacks for having lower strength than it was designed for. Minor note: Your chain shirt will impose an ASF chance on your arcane scrolls. Perhaps you were already aware of that, but its worth noting if you weren't. Zevox
sonofzeal 02-11-07, 09:34 PM	Right, I removed two of them and will save the gp for later. I'll still keep the third for emergencies though. Anything else?
Zevox 02-11-07, 10:02 PM	Lets see here... Your speed should be reduced to 15 ft for wearing medium armor. Your ACP should be -3, not -1. You should note what tricks your animal companion knows on his sheet (he gets 2 tricks for free for being your companion, and since with the +4 handle animal modifier you get with him you have +10 in that skill you can teach him any other 6 tricks you like as well). A Spear is a two-handed weapon, so you can't use it while wearing a shield (other than a Buckler, and that would impose a penalty to your attacks). You seem to have not listed all of your spells, which unless you plan on filling the unused slots after fights in mid cycle (I think it was ruled we can do that - I'm not sure), which would mean you're stuck with fewer options to choose from when writing tactics for your first fight or two, you probably shouldn't do. You've also forgotten your bonus 2nd level spell from high wisdom when calculating how many spell levels per fight you have, and mistakenly noted yourself as limited to 2 orisons per fight (theres no limit on 0 level spells). You cloak of resistance isn't 0 lbs - its 1 lb. Couple of pieces of advice: you'll probably want more than just 20 sling bullets, just in case you get stuck in a ranged fight (could easily happen with a speed of 15 ft). Also, Improved Initiative isn't all that useful a feat in the CoCo's environment; perhaps you should consider switching it out for something else. Beyond that, just try to clean up the sheet to make it easier to read/look better. Lots of those large spaces between chunks of information could be removed, you have some floating font tags, unused sections that could be removed, etc. Zevox
sonofzeal 02-11-07, 10:42 PM	Whoops! I origionally had him with Studded Leather, changed towards the end, and forgot to update some stuff. Thanks for the heads up! And I'll change that spear to a shortspear. ...and hmm, I thought I caught and changed the lvl2 bonus spell situation already... my mind must be going, dave. *fiddles around, removing ugly blue unused Conditional Modifier blocks and a few other things* ....better? ^^;
Zevox 02-11-07, 10:54 PM	Whoops! I origionally had him with Studded Leather, changed towards the end, and forgot to update some stuff. Thanks for the heads up! And I'll change that spear to a shortspear. ...and hmm, I thought I caught and changed the lvl2 bonus spell situation already... my mind must be going, dave. *fiddles around, removing ugly blue unused Conditional Modifier blocks and a few other things* ....better? ^^; Significantly :) . Just a couple more problems to note: your sling and shortspear should do -2 damage for your strength, your skills have you with +4 dex when you should only have +3, and your balance skill still says -1 ACP. Other than that, looks good. Though you may want to note you can buy a masterwork whistle for you handle animal skill (1 lb, 50 gp, +2 to the skill) and a masterwork tool for your profession skill (same) if you like. Particularly with the profession skill, that +2 is more gold every time you use it on a free activity, so its worth it. Zevox
Scribelords 02-11-07, 11:17 PM	I've been doing some upgrading to the Questlog of Gladius. Quests now have color coded tags for the type of quest. I'll be doing the same to the Miniquest sometime soon... soon being a relative term. Everyone who quests or questlords, please take a moment to check the questlog. Please send feedback if any of the tags are incorrect. The rest of the questlog is updated. Some members recieved PMs about questlogs without title lines. Please, remember to put the name of the quest and the EL somewhere; preferably in the title of the post. Also, some of the questlogs are starting to have links to the full thread. It's not required, but it can be handy. Also, Some recent quests have not made their way to the questlog. This includes most of the World Event questlogs, and a few others. Birthdays for the last 4 weeks have been sent to pitlords. If you've been waiting on those credits [ JAN 11: Vathelokai (1980), JAN 22: Hrothmund (19??), FEB 02: King Uther (19??), FEB 05: Erithmu (1980), FEB 15: One_Winged_Angel (1987), FEB 17: Eluria (1979) ], then feel free to throw rocks at me. Cheers :pint: ~Vathelokai
sonofzeal 02-11-07, 11:22 PM	Significantly :) . Just a couple more problems to note: your sling and shortspear should do -2 damage for your strength, your skills have you with +4 dex when you should only have +3, and your balance skill still says -1 ACP. Other than that, looks good. Though you may want to note you can buy a masterwork whistle for you handle animal skill (1 lb, 50 gp, +2 to the skill) and a masterwork tool for your profession skill (same) if you like. Particularly with the profession skill, that +2 is more gold every time you use it on a free activity, so its worth it. Zevox Ah, I'd totally forgotten that rule about masterwork tools for arbitrary skills! I'm too used to all the splatbooks with various individual tools scattered around (aka the Animal Trainer's Kit from Complete Adventurer, which gives a +2 but only while training and costs MORE than the generic masterwork on too). Few more questions... *pesters* :cool: - is keeping the profession tool in the house just asking for it to be stolen? - is carrying 20 bullets enough if I packed more on the dog? - do I recharge spells between fights, as long as I stick to "3 spell levels per fight"? - I can't bring in both an animal companion and a Handled Animal yet, right? But I can summon animals in the course of battle and that doesn't count against any sort of limit?
Vathelokai 02-11-07, 11:35 PM	- is keeping the profession tool in the house just asking for it to be stolen?Nope. Stolen Items are returned at the end of the fight anyway, which is the only time you can craft with it. - is carrying 20 bullets enough if I packed more on the dog?Yes. I've seen a few characters do that before and it worked out fine. - do I recharge spells between fights, as long as I stick to "3 spell levels per fight"?You can memorize spells into empty slots between fights, and use pearls of power. Not quite sure what you mean by 'recharge.' - I can't bring in both an animal companion and a Handled Animal yet, right? But I can summon animals in the course of battle and that doesn't count against any sort of limit?Summoned creatures don't count (they are considered part of the 'CR' of any caster). An animal companion dosn't count against your allies because it is a class feature (and thus factored into your 'CR'). So you can bring in the handle animal ally (assuming it's CR is 4 less than your ECL, or CR is 1; whichever is higher).
Zevox 02-11-07, 11:41 PM	Few more questions... *pesters* :cool: - is keeping the profession tool in the house just asking for it to be stolen? - is carrying 20 bullets enough if I packed more on the dog? - do I recharge spells between fights, as long as I stick to "3 spell levels per fight"? - I can't bring in both an animal companion and a Handled Animal yet, right? But I can summon animals in the course of battle and that doesn't count against any sort of limit? 1) Eh, no. Opponents cannot steal items from you. The Burglary free activity lets them deny you use of a number of expendables up to a certain gold value for 1 fight, but theres no way to get items permanently stolen, or even have non-expendables temporarily stolen. 2) That'd do, yep. 3) Nope. You regain spells after every 3 fights. You can use up to your limit of spell levels in fight 1, up to that plus whatever you didn't use in fight 1 in fight 2, and whatever is left in fight 3. 4) Actually, you could bring your animal companion and a CR 1 animal (or a number of fractional CR ones up to a total of 1 CR) as is. Until level 6 you can't bring in anything tougher than CR 1, but you can bring in more as you level up. Summoned animals don't count against any limits though, you're correct there. Zevox
sonofzeal 02-11-07, 11:44 PM	(edit - never mind ^^; )
jjones 02-12-07, 03:32 AM	wow...ok...first try at this. Looks very complicated. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11461576&posted=1#post11461576 That's my dood! Maybe give him the quick once-over for any illegal stuff to change before fight. Wow...i honestly didn't think there would be this many rules and such to get started, but here goes nothing i guess. JJ
TheMagister 02-12-07, 07:46 AM	wow...ok...first try at this. Looks very complicated. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11461576&posted=1#post11461576 That's my dood! Maybe give him the quick once-over for any illegal stuff to change before fight. Wow...i honestly didn't think there would be this many rules and such to get started, but here goes nothing i guess. JJ You did very well! The only thing that I found missing was something easily overlooked: Your skills section needs to include your total modifiers and check results for Balance, Climb, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, and Swim. {Counts fingers} Yeah, I think that's all of 'em. Saves your future pitlords (possibly me) a whole mess of time. Don't forget to add in your Armor Check Penalties! Also (and this is more along the lines of advice than anything that you did wrong) you might consider swapping Improved Initiative for another feat. Because of the nature of combat here in the CoCo, I.I. really isn't as useful as it is in TT (kinda like Combat Reflexes, which is really situational here). A quick read of your sheet brings a few other options to mind: 1) Scribe Scroll - could help you out having a few more castings of Enlarge Person handy for your 3-fight cycle. 2) Stand Still - since one of your primary weapons is a polearm, being able to hit them while they can't close with you is a good thing. Other than Improved Trip and a readied Stunning Fist, Stand Still is one of the only ways to hit someone without them being able to hit you back. 3) Augment Summoning - just cause you have them on your list. Not sure it's a focus of your build. Good luck! P.S. - Don't forget two things: 1) PM the "pitlords" account with a link and a short introduction ("Hi, this is a new character. Can you add it to the roster? He's ECL3 and his name is 'Aspect of St. Cuthbert'.") to get your character added to the roster officially. Do this ASAP!; and 2) Check your title line! It needs to read: "Ready for (DATE) (Fight x); Free Activity (if any)". If it doesn't, you won't be paired! TM
Zevox 02-12-07, 08:24 AM	Your skills section needs to include your total modifiers and check results for Balance, Climb, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, and Swim. {Counts fingers} Yeah, I think that's all of 'em. Close - its actually Jump, not Swim, that is required. Zevox
hogarth 02-12-07, 09:41 AM	Is there a reference somewhere (e.g. FAQ, Sage ruling) to using the Hide skill within 1 foot per rank of cover/concealment other than the following: If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a -10 penalty because you have to move fast. So the rules state that if you distract a creature (with a Bluff check or otherwise), you can divert their attention long enough to get to a hiding spot that's within 1 foot per rank of Hide. For example, a rogue with 5 ranks in Hide is within 5 feet of some bushes but is being observed by a night watchman. He successfully Bluffs (std action) to make a diversion ("Hey! Look over there!"), so he is able to move into the bushes (with a move action or a 5-ft step) and hide there (at a -10 penalty). However, I've seen people mention that "you can hide as long as you're within 1 foot per rank of a hiding spot", which is different than the portion of the SRD quoted above (which specifically mentions that the observer must be distracted and you must actually move to the hiding spot in question). Is this more general rule written somewhere, or are people just misinterpreting things?
TheMagister 02-12-07, 10:03 AM	Is there a reference somewhere (e.g. FAQ, Sage ruling) to using the Hide skill within 1 foot per rank of cover/concealment other than the following: So the rules state that if you distract a creature (with a Bluff check or otherwise), you can divert their attention long enough to get to a hiding spot that's within 1 foot per rank of Hide. For example, a rogue with 5 ranks in Hide is within 5 feet of some bushes but is being observed by a night watchman. He successfully Bluffs (std action) to make a diversion ("Hey! Look over there!"), so he is able to move into the bushes (with a move action or a 5-ft step) and hide there (at a -10 penalty). Right. That's how that would work. However, I've seen people mention that "you can hide as long as you're within 1 foot per rank of a hiding spot", which is different than the portion of the SRD quoted above (which specifically mentions that the observer must be distracted and you must actually move to the hiding spot in question). Is this more general rule written somewhere, or are people just misinterpreting things? The part in quotation marks is a gross generalization. It should read: You can remain hidden as long as you're within 1 foot per rank of cover/concealment. There's no way (short of HiPS) to hide while being observed. Using the Bluff skill makes you un-observed for the move action that it takes for you to hide yourself. Even then, there's the move silently check, and unless there's cover all round your character, chances are the night watchman will say, "Well, the only place he could be is behind that barrel..." TM
hogarth 02-12-07, 10:10 AM	The part in quotation marks is a gross generalization. It should read: You can remain hidden as long as you're within 1 foot per rank of cover/concealment. I'd phrase it even more narrowly: even if you distract an observer, you can't hide unless you physically move to cover/concealment that's within 1 foot per rank of Hide, and even then you still take a -10 penalty.
sonofzeal 02-12-07, 10:37 AM	Question - Always-Late has Dekry's Animal Companion wolf Vyra listed as Large size. This would be a valid interpretating of the wolf's Advancement table, but at least in the games I've played we haven't allowed Animal Companions to change size catagory as they advance in hit dice. If you DO allow companions to increase in size, then does it follow the guidelines listed here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases)? If not, what?
TelinArtho 02-12-07, 11:04 AM	Animal companions do not increase in size. I don't have the SRD reference to point it out at the moment, but I'm sure someone will...
jjones 02-12-07, 11:54 AM	You did very well! The only thing that I found missing was something easily overlooked: Your skills section needs to include your total modifiers and check results for Balance, Climb, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, and Swim. {Counts fingers} Yeah, I think that's all of 'em. Saves your future pitlords (possibly me) a whole mess of time. Don't forget to add in your Armor Check Penalties! Thank you...taken care of. A quick read of your sheet brings a few other options to mind: 1) Scribe Scroll - could help you out having a few more castings of Enlarge Person handy for your 3-fight cycle. 2) Stand Still - since one of your primary weapons is a polearm, being able to hit them while they can't close with you is a good thing. Other than Improved Trip and a readied Stunning Fist, Stand Still is one of the only ways to hit someone without them being able to hit you back. 3) Augment Summoning - just cause you have them on your list. Not sure it's a focus of your build. Sub'd out improved init with scribe scroll. Thx for the suggestion. I see what you mean. Resources are very limited. P.S. - Don't forget two things: 1) PM the "pitlords" account with a link and a short introduction ("Hi, this is a new character. Can you add it to the roster? He's ECL3 and his name is 'Aspect of St. Cuthbert'.") to get your character added to the roster officially. Do this ASAP!; and 2) Check your title line! It needs to read: "Ready for (DATE) (Fight x); Free Activity (if any)". If it doesn't, you won't be paired! TM Already done that. From looking at other players' characters, i'm suddenly realizing that i will be pushed around alot by more skillfull characters in the manner of how they will chose to set up the fight. Could be most disadvantageous to me seeing how i have a 6 int. lol I don't anticipate doing very well, but i'll give it my best shot. Well, assuming i don't get "ambushed", "politically" outmanouvered or anything and hope i survive their first shot killer attack. JJ
TelinArtho 02-12-07, 12:02 PM	Don't get discouraged by your record though. I lost my first 6 matches before my first win. And since then I'm still worse than 50/50...
UserNamer 02-12-07, 12:03 PM	At the scrolls section you listed some xp cost, but you don't have to pay xp for crafting.
hogarth 02-12-07, 12:04 PM	From looking at other players' characters, i'm suddenly realizing that i will be pushed around alot by more skillfull characters in the manner of how they will chose to set up the fight. Could be most disadvantageous to me seeing how i have a 6 int. lol I don't anticipate doing very well, but i'll give it my best shot. Well, assuming i don't get "ambushed", "politically" outmanouvered or anything and hope i survive their first shot killer attack. The skill packages (Ambush, et al) rarely have much of an impact on the outcome of a fight. The biggest thing that you'll have to get used to is writing detailed tactics. I found the first few times I wrote tactics to be an eye-opener. Remember -- if you didn't cover a situation in your tactics, you're stuck with whatever the pitlord improvises. I hope you meant "my character has a 6 int", not "I have a 6 int". Then you would really be in trouble... ;)
jjones 02-12-07, 12:42 PM	At the scrolls section you listed some xp cost, but you don't have to pay xp for crafting. :OMG! no exp cost for crafting? seriously? that's awesome. JJ
Zevox 02-12-07, 12:53 PM	:OMG! no exp cost for crafting? seriously? that's awesome. JJ Yep. You'll be even more surprised by the explanation for why we do that - around here, losing xp would be an advantage. Losing xp means you stay lower level longer, allowing you to build up more gold than you normally would. In a normal game you have teammates advancing ahead of you and challenges getting tougher to balance that out, but around here thats not so, and so we remove the xp loss to prevent the xp/gold imbalance from getting out of hand. Zevox
UserNamer 02-12-07, 01:09 PM	I don't anticipate doing very well, but i'll give it my best shot. Well, assuming i don't get "ambushed", "politically" outmanouvered or anything and hope i survive their first shot killer attack. Just a few people use packages/skills, as far as I know, some of them has never been used, like scout, move cautious, hide trail, hide resources, rob store, sell item.
Sindorin 02-12-07, 01:24 PM	Yep. You'll be even more surprised by the explanation for why we do that - around here, losing xp would be an advantage. Losing xp means you stay lower level longer, allowing you to build up more gold than you normally would. In a normal game you have teammates advancing ahead of you and challenges getting tougher to balance that out, but around here thats not so, and so we remove the xp loss to prevent the xp/gold imbalance from getting out of hand. Zevox Hmm, I was not aware of this change since my return. Does this change affect our characters retroactively?
TelinArtho 02-12-07, 01:43 PM	nope.
Zevox 02-12-07, 02:40 PM	Is there a reference somewhere (e.g. FAQ, Sage ruling) to using the Hide skill within 1 foot per rank of cover/concealment other than the following: So the rules state that if you distract a creature (with a Bluff check or otherwise), you can divert their attention long enough to get to a hiding spot that's within 1 foot per rank of Hide. For example, a rogue with 5 ranks in Hide is within 5 feet of some bushes but is being observed by a night watchman. He successfully Bluffs (std action) to make a diversion ("Hey! Look over there!"), so he is able to move into the bushes (with a move action or a 5-ft step) and hide there (at a -10 penalty). However, I've seen people mention that "you can hide as long as you're within 1 foot per rank of a hiding spot", which is different than the portion of the SRD quoted above (which specifically mentions that the observer must be distracted and you must actually move to the hiding spot in question). Is this more general rule written somewhere, or are people just misinterpreting things? Just a note on this: though I'm having trouble finding it in our rules, I also distinctly remember Cat house ruling this after the fight between The Harvester and Cyra Val (though saying just he did it may be a bit misleading - he suggested a house rule, and just about everyone around at the time agreed; so it was made). The house rule was that this applies only when you're moving between two points of cover - so if you're never more than X feet from cover when moving between two spots of cover (where X is ranks in hide), you can stay hidden even if in plain sight of your foe temporarily. This would be no protection once you're spotted though - still need to break LoS to rehide. Zevox
MindWandererB 02-12-07, 03:00 PM	Actually, it wasn't a house rule, but a clarification. By the old interpretation you could be standing in front of a wall, but hiding behind it, and yet attacking your opponent, standing right in your face, which was silly. The clarification was that the 1 foot/rank rule applied to moving between two points, not standing still. I can't find it anymore, either. Is that rule gone?
hogarth 02-12-07, 03:10 PM	Actually, it wasn't a house rule, but a clarification. By the old interpretation you could be standing in front of a wall, but hiding behind it, and yet attacking your opponent, standing right in your face, which was silly. The clarification was that the 1 foot/rank rule applied to moving between two points, not standing still. It's still a house rule if this interpretation doesn't involve distracting the observer (with Bluff or otherwise) and applying a -10 penalty.
MindWandererB 02-12-07, 03:16 PM	Let me clarify: it was an existing house rule, which Cat clarified at the time Zevox mentioned. It wasn't a new house rule.
Guildlords 02-12-07, 05:05 PM	Guild Announcement! I just noticed this change in the rules. Since I didn't know about it, and no one's been taking advantage of it, I'm assuming no one else knew, either. It must have been there for a while, though.Process Guild Points: This mission actually encompasses many sub-mission types: you can do any Guild Point-processing GAP by completing a Mission instead. Should the mission be successful, the guild automatically processes stored guild points for the type of action the character quested for. The maximum amount of processed points is (1) the guilds maximum ability to process this type of points (2) the amount of stored points (3) the characters ECL*100, whichever is lower! A character (ECL 5) could for example go on a mission to Agitate Citizen (FAI) for his guild; the guild has 3 Chapels and 450 stored Faith Points. Should he succeed, the guild processes 450 FAI-PTS because that's what the guild has stored.So it's in many ways like earning an extra GAP, except you can only spend it on processing. That's of value to every guild!
sonofzeal 02-12-07, 06:10 PM	Damage is fully healed in between fights, correct? Including damage to allies, correct? Including death of allies?
MindWandererB 02-12-07, 06:17 PM	Death of allies, no. That's fixed between cycles, but not between battles within a cycle. Note that only actual death (-10 hp) carries over. If the battle ends at -9 hp, they're good.
NiQil 02-12-07, 08:59 PM	I believe the rulings you are looking for regarding hiding are these, located in the newly opened Courtroom: Q: How does hiding work in the arena? A: You are autospotted if you leave cover/concealment and your opponent has line of sight to you. This includes moving from cover/concealment to cover/concealment. The exception to this condition is that if you are moving from cover/concealment to cover/concealment and are within 1 ft/rank of cover/concealment at all times, you are still considered hidden and an opposed check would be required for anyone with line of sight to see you. Q: How is the distance measured when determining the number of feet away from cover or concealment you are when attempting to hide, since you can hide up to 1 ft/Hide rank away from cover or concealment? A: The ACTUAL distance is what matters. This would be the distance 'as the crow flies', rather than the distance you would have to actually move to reach cover or concealment.
Iced 02-13-07, 12:56 AM	Can a monk take improved natural attack?
Zevox 02-13-07, 01:01 AM	Can a monk take improved natural attack? Yup. I'm pretty sure its either in the FAQ or our Court Decisions, but either way I know I've seen that as a ruling before. Zevox
MindWandererB 02-13-07, 01:10 AM	It's in both, actually.
Zevox 02-13-07, 01:11 AM	It's in both, actually. Huh - well, that would sure explain why I wasn't sure which I'd seen it in, wouldn't it? :) Zevox
TelinArtho 02-13-07, 11:06 AM	Hmm - looking over the drider as a character possibility - what would happen if, for example, I started a Drider Wizard and then proceeded as a wizard in regular classes - would I start over at level 1 wizard, or would it be level 7 wizard? Advancement: By character class ... Spells: Driders cast spells as 6th-level clerics, wizards, or sorcerers. Drider clerics can choose from the following domains: Chaos, Destruction, Evil, and Trickery. The typical spells prepared shown here are for a drider sorcerer.
TheMagister 02-13-07, 11:21 AM	I'm pretty sure that when a level in the appropriate casting class is taken by a race that already has a racial casting capability as that class (i.e. - not SLAs), the creature's racial caster level and racial casting ability stack with the newly acquired level. So a creature that casts spells as a 6th level wizard as a racial ability that takes a level in wizard would gain the CL and spells of a 7th level wizard. Now to prove it. brb Edit Found it: ...A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster's levels in a spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability. A rakshasa, for example, casts spells as a 7th level sorcerer. If it picks up a level of sorcerer, it casts spells as an 8th level sorcerer. Sauro was talking about this almost a year ago, citing how stupid and abusable such rules are. A Frost Giant (CR 9) could take 20 levels of rogue (non-associated class levels add 1/2 a CR per level added) and be a CR 19 monster, but an ECL 38 character (14HD+4LA+20Class). Who wants to fight a Frost Giant with evasion and slippery mind and sneak attack and opportunist? In the snow! Where it gets a racial bonus to hide! And your characters are slowed by the snow! Me! Oh, me! No, WAIT! Make it 20 levels of CLERIC!!! {glee!} TM
TelinArtho 02-13-07, 11:34 AM	That sounds good. What about the domains on the cleric side - any objections to customizing those (in case I decide to work out a summoner-drider...)?
TheMagister 02-13-07, 11:38 AM	I would think that you couldn't customize them, since the MM spells out exactly which ones you can take (which excludes the others by association).
TelinArtho 02-13-07, 11:44 AM	Sauro was talking about this almost a year ago, citing how stupid and abusable such rules are. A Frost Giant (CR 9) could take 20 levels of rogue (non-associated class levels add 1/2 a CR per level added) and be a CR 19 monster, but an ECL 38 character (14HD+4LA+20Class). That just sounds so wrong and it actually is (just not enough wrong...): Nonassociated Class Levels If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by 1/2 per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1. Levels in NPC classes are always treated as nonassociated. So it would be CR9+7 (for the first 14 levels of rogue) + 6 = 22. PFFFTT!!!! Also, you'll note that the above reference doesn't really specify what is considered associated. I would certainly say that classes where the primary attribute is not penalized is still playing into the strengths of the creature. So in other words - while a frost giant rogue 20 might be CR23, a frost giant cleric, wizard, sorcerer, bard, fighter, paladin, (everything but rogue...) would still be CR29. Of course, that's my view on things - not necessarily rules as written or intended...
Hirumajoe 02-13-07, 11:46 AM	Sauro was talking about this almost a year ago, citing how stupid and abusable such rules are. A Frost Giant (CR 9) could take 20 levels of rogue (non-associated class levels add 1/2 a CR per level added) and be a CR 19 monster, but an ECL 38 character (14HD+4LA+20Class). Who wants to fight a Frost Giant with evasion and slippery mind and sneak attack and opportunist? In the snow! Where it gets a racial bonus to hide! And your characters are slowed by the snow! Me! Oh, me! No, WAIT! Make it 20 levels of CLERIC!!! {glee!} TM Actually once the monster has a spell casting class, i.e. cleric 1, doesn't it automatically become associated per the section you quote? So the first cleric level is at 1/2 CR, but now the monster can cast cleric spells, so every level of cleric after that is at 1 CR per? And in any case, once the levels of the class exceed the hit dice of the monster (14 in the case of the Frost Giant), it becomes associated. So the 20th level Rogue Frost Giant would be 9 CR + 7 CR (14 levels of Rogue) + 6 CR (6 levels of Rogue) = 22 CR. I'd be willing to wager a party of 4 level 22nd adventurers against that monster. Especially since its only going to have the wealth of a 20th level NPC as opposed to a 38th level character. Edit: Doh, too slow. But I'd like to point out Telin can't add. :-)
Hirumajoe 02-13-07, 11:59 AM	So it would be CR9+7 (for the first 14 levels of rogue) + 6 = 22. PFFFTT!!!! Also, you'll note that the above reference doesn't really specify what is considered associated. I would certainly say that classes where the primary attribute is not penalized is still playing into the strengths of the creature. So in other words - while a frost giant rogue 20 might be CR23, a frost giant cleric, wizard, sorcerer, bard, fighter, paladin, (everything but rogue...) would still be CR29. Of course, that's my view on things - not necessarily rules as written or intended... Actually, you should take a look at the Unicorn and Celestial Charger example. It supports your view (at least I think it does). The short version is the Unicorn is base CR 3, the Celestial Charger has +4 HD of magical beast, plus the celestial template added, plus 7 levels of cleric and weighs in at CR 13. According to the Celestial template, it adds CR 2 to a base 8 HD. Magical beast adds +1 per 3 HD (rounded down) adds 1 CR. So CR 6 + CR 7 (from Cleric) equal CR 13. So in this case, the base creature has no true spellcasting ability, yet is taking the full associated CR increase.
TheMagister 02-13-07, 12:01 PM	So the 20th level Rogue Frost Giant would be 9 CR + 7 CR (14 levels of Rogue) + 6 CR (6 levels of Rogue) = 22 CR. I'd be willing to wager a party of 4 level 22nd adventurers against that monster. Especially since its only going to have the wealth of a 20th level NPC as opposed to a 38th level character. Edit: Doh, too slow. But I'd like to point out Telin can't add. :-) Ah, but would you wager your 22nd level ARENA character against that Frost Giant Rogue 20 that you drew in a monster fight? And sorry for the misinformation. I got carried away.
hogarth 02-13-07, 12:06 PM	Has anyone ever calculated what the probability is of getting paired in the different types of fight (ceteris paribus)? E.g. What is the probability of a: monster fight? hunter fight? free-for-all? team fight?
TheMagister 02-13-07, 12:10 PM	Actually, you should take a look at the Unicorn and Celestial Charger example. It supports your view (at least I think it does). The short version is the Unicorn is base CR 3, the Celestial Charger has +4 HD of magical beast, plus the celestial template added, plus 7 levels of cleric and weighs in at CR 13. According to the Celestial template, it adds CR 2 to a base 8 HD. Magical beast adds +1 per 3 HD (rounded down) adds 1 CR. So CR 6 + CR 7 (from Cleric) equal CR 13. So in this case, the base creature has no true spellcasting ability, yet is taking the full associated CR increase. I don't really agree with you here. The Unicorn's base abilities include: 1) Continuous Magic Circle against Evil 2) CLW 3/day (CL5) 3) CMW 1/day (CL5) 4) quickened detect evil (at will) 5) neutralize poison 1/day 6) greater teleport (limited to forest home) Sounds like a cleric to me, with some variation.
Erithmu 02-13-07, 12:13 PM	I don't really agree with you here. The Unicorn's base abilities include: 1) Continuous Magic Circle against Evil 2) CLW 3/day (CL5) 3) CMW 1/day (CL5) 4) quickened detect evil (at will) 5) neutralize poison 1/day 6) greater teleport (limited to forest home) Sounds like a cleric to me, with some variation. You forgot the 18000 gp hood ornament that comes standard
Hirumajoe 02-13-07, 12:24 PM	Ah, but would you wager your 22nd level ARENA character against that Frost Giant Rogue 20 that you drew in a monster fight? And sorry for the misinformation. I got carried away. Do I get epic feats and epic magic items? Hmm... There's no listed Epic Slayer progression which could put a crimp in things. But anyways, Valen Sky's spot/listen should be maxed out at that level. Plus touchsight essentially eliminates sneak attacks. Plus he'd be a level 17 manifester. He could True Metamorphosis into a Cloud Giant. :-) The frost giant would only have a BAB of +15 and Epic bonus of +7 for +22 base bonus. Other modifiers might be +11 for Strength,+3 for belt of giant strength, and +5 for magic weapon gets a total of +41 to hit. Valen's AC at that level would be 10 + 4 (Cloud Giant Dex/+6 Gloves) Dex + 4 Armor + 5 Armor Enhancement + 8 Shield (Force Screen) + 12 Natural + 5 Deflection + 5 Natural Enhancement + 6 Insight (Defensive Precog, will pick it up sometime) + 1 dodge = 60 AC. Thats not even using epic equipment... Yeah, I'd be willing to take that on. :-)
Hirumajoe 02-13-07, 12:31 PM	I don't really agree with you here. The Unicorn's base abilities include: 1) Continuous Magic Circle against Evil 2) CLW 3/day (CL5) 3) CMW 1/day (CL5) 4) quickened detect evil (at will) 5) neutralize poison 1/day 6) greater teleport (limited to forest home) Sounds like a cleric to me, with some variation. I thought those all were spell-like abilities, not spellcasting as the character class ability? Does that mean the caster level on spell-like abilities go up when you take the appropriate casting classes?
TheMagister 02-13-07, 12:34 PM	I thought those all were spell-like abilities, not spellcasting as the character class ability? Does that mean the caster level on spell-like abilities go up when you take the appropriate casting classes? Oh, they're SLA. But taking levels in a cleric class to augment what already has cleric-ish abilities is "playing to a creature's strengths", IMO. TM
TheMagister 02-13-07, 12:38 PM	Do I get epic feats and epic magic items? I hope so: a whole 2 levels of them. The frost giant has nine levels of them (for whatever that's worth). TM
MindWandererB 02-13-07, 12:44 PM	Actually, you should take a look at the Unicorn and Celestial Charger example. It supports your view (at least I think it does). The short version is the Unicorn is base CR 3, the Celestial Charger has +4 HD of magical beast, plus the celestial template added, plus 7 levels of cleric and weighs in at CR 13. According to the Celestial template, it adds CR 2 to a base 8 HD. Magical beast adds +1 per 3 HD (rounded down) adds 1 CR. So CR 6 + CR 7 (from Cleric) equal CR 13. So in this case, the base creature has no true spellcasting ability, yet is taking the full associated CR increase.Just a correction here: the Celestial template adds CR (and abilities) based on total HD, not just racial HD. Note that the Celestial Charger has DR 10/magic, not the 5/magic of an 8-HD creature. But the CR increase is the same. The rules are explicit about this one, though: "A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability." Since SLAs don't improve like this, the Celestial Charger doesn't follow the rules. Of course, in this case, the rules are not solid, so that CR can be anything they want.
TheMagister 02-13-07, 12:46 PM	The frost giant would only have a BAB of +15 and Epic bonus of +7 for +22 base bonus.) I think you're leaving out the base creature... +10 BAB just for being a frost giant with 14 HD. So a +32 BAB. I'm thinking a Brilliant Energy Greatsword wielded by the giant with Improved Feint and Power Attack. Can you say "save vs. massive damage three times a round"? ... Isn't there a "perfect feint" or some such epic feat somewhere in Core? OH. And how are you gonna hurt him? He's gonna have like, 400 hp, killer saves, and all those neat rogue abilities (evasion, uncanny dodge, slippery mind, etc.) TM
hogarth 02-13-07, 12:53 PM	I think you're leaving out the base creature... +10 BAB just for being a frost giant with 14 HD. So a +32 BAB. Your BAB doesn't improved after you reach 20 hit dice/levels. Exception: dragons.
Erithmu 02-13-07, 01:07 PM	@TM: I'm still trying to figure out how you are going to reach me ... Then again knowing an opponent there is always the ability to make a character specifically designed to kill your Giant. Power attack and brilliant energy ... I counter with Ghost template ... 9th level spells/powers are also very very strong even with saving throws. Disjunction is pretty nasty as well (make a DC 29 Will save for each item you own with your (roughly +15-18ish)) This is also the CoCo and at 22nd level ... I'm sure we could think up some evilness.
Hirumajoe 02-13-07, 01:09 PM	I think you're leaving out the base creature... +10 BAB just for being a frost giant with 14 HD. So a +32 BAB. No. If we're adding class levels, that monster has to play by character rules. He goes epic as soon as he hits 21 HD. Otherwise, I'll take a Minotaur build that gets 5 attacks around at ECL 29 or so... Therefore, he only gets +4 BAB (woops... I miss counted apparently. The original +15 BAB was wrong) from the first 6 levels of Rogue. Then every other level of rogue after that he gets +1 Epic BAB, so +7 for 14 levels. Btw, how the heck do you get +32? +10 for 14 Giant HD, and +15 for Rogue = +25. And thats the most generous reading I can find. I'm thinking a Brilliant Energy Greatsword wielded by the giant with Improved Feint and Power Attack. Can you say "save vs. massive damage three times a round"? ... Isn't there a "perfect feint" or some such epic feat somewhere in Core? OH. And how are you gonna hurt him? He's gonna have like, 400 hp, killer saves, and all those neat rogue abilities (evasion, uncanny dodge, slippery mind, etc.) TM Umm... Valen Sky is a Ranged/Melee fighter, perhaps? He hasn't cast an offensive damaging Psionic power yet in his career. He will be carrying around a +5 Adamantine Greatsword of Sundering, Suppression, Concussion. On a Cloud giant (Huge Size), that should be 4d6 + 5 + 5 + 19 (Str) damage. With longer reach than the Frost Giant. Valen Sky will have +16 BAB and +2 Epic BAB. +5 from weapon, -2 Size, +13 Str, +6 Insight = +40 to hit. On a sunder attempt, he'll be at +7/+2/-3/-8 to hit relative to the Frost Giant (+4 from Imp Sunder Feat on weapon, +4 Size). And he can throw a Moment of Prescience in there for +17 for good measure. He also gets a dispell attempt on every swing on that weapon as a 15 manifester. If even one of those dispells go off, the weapon is essentially toast instantly. Admittedly, he's spending something like 17x5 = 85 PP in buffs. But he should have 309 PP total (103 per fight). So Valen might dispell and sunder that weapon of his. Basically, I think the highly tuned 22nd level Arena fighters are going to be able to deal with a CR 22 Frost Giant Rogue. Frost Giant Sorcerer might be another matter, but I'd go with Telin in thinking those will add directly to CR.
TheMagister 02-13-07, 01:11 PM	@TM: I'm still trying to figure out how you are going to reach me ... Then again knowing an opponent there is always the ability to make a character specifically designed to kill your Giant. Power attack and brilliant energy ... I counter with Ghost template ... 9th level spells/powers are also very very strong even with saving throws. Disjunction is pretty nasty as well (make a DC 29 Will save for each item you own with your (roughly +15-18ish)) This is also the CoCo and at 22nd level ... I'm sure we could think up some evilness. You guys are misunderstanding the point. CERTAINLY a perfectly prepared 22nd level character could kill it. CERTAINLY it would stomp most 22nd level characters that drew it as a monster fight. Edit Oh. And it would have a KILLER ambush/outmaneuver package, wouldn't it?
Hirumajoe 02-13-07, 01:15 PM	I think you're leaving out the base creature... +10 BAB just for being a frost giant with 14 HD. So a +32 BAB. No. If we're adding class levels, that monster has to play by character rules. He goes epic as soon as he hits 21 HD. Otherwise, I'll take a Minotaur build that gets 5 attacks around at ECL 29 or so... Therefore, he only gets +4 BAB (woops... I miss counted apparently. The original +15 BAB was wrong) from the first 6 levels of Rogue. Then every other level of rogue after that he gets +1 Epic BAB, so +7 for 14 levels. Btw, how the heck do you get +32? +10 for 14 Giant HD, and +15 for Rogue = +25. And thats the most generous reading I can find. I'm thinking a Brilliant Energy Greatsword wielded by the giant with Improved Feint and Power Attack. Can you say "save vs. massive damage three times a round"? ... Isn't there a "perfect feint" or some such epic feat somewhere in Core? OH. And how are you gonna hurt him? He's gonna have like, 400 hp, killer saves, and all those neat rogue abilities (evasion, uncanny dodge, slippery mind, etc.) TM Umm... Valen Sky is a Ranged/Melee fighter, perhaps? He hasn't cast an offensive damaging Psionic power yet. He will be carrying around a +5 Adamantine Greatsword of Sundering, Suppression, Concussion. On a Cloud giant (Huge Size), that should be 4d6 + 5 + 5 + 19 (Str) damage. With longer reach than the Frost Giant. Valen Sky will have +16 BAB and +2 Epic BAB. +5 from weapon, -2 Size, +13 Str, +6 Insight = +40 to hit. On a sunder attempt, he'll be at +7/+2/-3/-8 to hit (+4 from Imp Sunder Feat on weapon, +4 Size). And he can throw a Moment of Prescience in there for +17 for good measure. He also gets a dispell attempt on every swing on that weapon as a 15 manifester. If even one of those dispells go off, the weapon is essentially toast instantly. Admittedly, he's spending something like 17x5 = 85 PP in buffs. But he should have 309 PP total (103 per fight). So Valen might dispell and sunder that weapon of his. Basically, I think the highly tuned 22nd level Arena fighters are going to be able to deal with a CR 22 Frost Giant Rogue. Frost Giant Sorcerer might be another matter, but I'd go with Telin in thinking those will add directly to CR.
MindWandererB 02-13-07, 01:15 PM	You guys are misunderstanding the point. CERTAINLY a perfectly prepared 22nd level character could kill it. CERTAINLY it would stomp most 22nd level characters that drew it as a monster fight.Depends on how you define "most 22nd level characters." If you're Tordek, the Generic Dwarven Fighter, then you probably lose. If you're a CoCo optimized character that made it all the way to 22nd level without being retired, you've got a darn good chance. Edit: and in any event, I'd probably rather do other things to boost that cloud giant. Like make it a weretyrannosaurus. :)
Erithmu 02-13-07, 01:16 PM	You guys are misunderstanding the point. CERTAINLY a perfectly prepared 22nd level character could kill it. CERTAINLY it would stomp most 22nd level characters that drew it as a monster fight. Fair enough ... Knowing my style of play (gish/spellcasters) if the base question is would I take my 22nd lvl char against the FG rogue? Week 1: I'd give myself better than 60% - Full Spell selection to choose from, New gear, no missing holes Week 2: Id give myself about a 50/50 - I'd probably have blown some of my best spells in week 1 so it would have to be a bit creative Week 3: would be very interesting but I think I'd still be around 50/50 but lots would come down to the dice, or how many spells I have left I'd take that fight.
TheMagister 02-13-07, 01:25 PM	No. If we're adding class levels, that monster has to play by character rules. He goes epic as soon as he hits 21 HD. Otherwise, I'll take a Minotaur build that gets 5 attacks around at ECL 29 or so... Therefore, he only gets +4 BAB (woops... I miss counted apparently. The original +15 BAB was wrong) from the first 6 levels of Rogue. Then every other level of rogue after that he gets +1 Epic BAB, so +7 for 14 levels. Btw, how the heck do you get +32? +10 for 14 Giant HD, and +15 for Rogue = +25. And thats the most generous reading I can find. Umm... Valen Sky is a Ranged/Melee fighter, perhaps? He hasn't cast an offensive damaging Psionic power yet in his career. He will be carrying around a +5 Adamantine Greatsword of Sundering, Suppression, Concussion. On a Cloud giant (Huge Size), that should be 4d6 + 5 + 5 + 19 (Str) damage. With longer reach than the Frost Giant. Valen Sky will have +16 BAB and +2 Epic BAB. +5 from weapon, -2 Size, +13 Str, +6 Insight = +40 to hit. On a sunder attempt, he'll be at +7/+2/-3/-8 to hit relative to the Frost Giant (+4 from Imp Sunder Feat on weapon, +4 Size). And he can throw a Moment of Prescience in there for +17 for good measure. He also gets a dispell attempt on every swing on that weapon as a 15 manifester. If even one of those dispells go off, the weapon is essentially toast instantly. Admittedly, he's spending something like 17x5 = 85 PP in buffs. But he should have 309 PP total (103 per fight). So Valen might dispell and sunder that weapon of his. Basically, I think the highly tuned 22nd level Arena fighters are going to be able to deal with a CR 22 Frost Giant Rogue. Frost Giant Sorcerer might be another matter, but I'd go with Telin in thinking those will add directly to CR. I got +32 by taking your +22 and adding +10 because I thought you left out the base creature. Okay. +10 for giant (14 HD) + 4 for rogue (6 HD rogue) + 7 (14 epic levels) = +21 BAB. Yeah, that's low. 14+20=34 HD. 16,20,24,28,32 = +5 ability increases. Now, Strength for said giant: Str 29 (base) + 5 = 34 Str. +6 Str Belt = 40 str (+15). So only a +36 to hit. With a +5 weapon, a +41.
TelinArtho 02-13-07, 01:27 PM	okay guys - thanks for derailing my nice questions about Driders on to a discussion about Epic Frost Giant Rogues and Celestial Chargers... Back to the drider though - I am of the opinion that the domains could be chosen - since the domains listed are for followers of Lolth. Although Trickery and Evil are fun domains - I'd like to play around with some other ones... Also, I am for once stuck on what to do for feats with her. Two weapon fighting is an option - but frankly her melee ability is minimal until she gains Divine Power at ECL11 (CL7) and even then it is far below a melee monster of the level. She should be able to supplant the melee monster though with her use of spells. Right now I'm tossing around Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Magic Arms and Armor. I'm considering Ability Focus for the poison (would put it up to DC20), a metamagic feat (extend or empower most likely) or possibly Spell Focus (Necromancy) (which would drive up the DCs on her spells quite nicely - DC20 for level 1 spells :) - and that's without items boosting her stats yet...)
Hirumajoe 02-13-07, 01:34 PM	I agree, if you were worshiping a diety other than Lolth, you should get those domains. It'd be kinda silly for a drider worshiping some other Chaotic Evil diety to get Lolth's spells. Crafting feats would definitely be a good choice. If you want another direction, you could try power attack and Divine Might. Although, you'd have to put off Divine Might itself until 9th level (13 ECL) due to the fact you only cast like a cleric, not turn like a cleric. So perhaps some feats supplementing a two-handed (as opposed to two-weapon) style might be reasonable. Although, again your melee abilities are going to be rather weak. Hmm... Can Driders take Spirited Charge like Centaurs? You also have a natural attack form, so you could just pickup deflect arrows, no?
Macbrea 02-13-07, 01:44 PM	Here is a quote that I am not sure that a Drider Cleric, Cleric 3 woudln't actually be 3 levels of cleric plus cast as a 6th level of cleric. Sometimes a creature can cast arcane or divine spells just as a member of a spellcasting class can (and can activate magic items accordingly). Such creatures are subject to the same spellcasting rules that characters are, except as follows. A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body. Such a creature also does need material components for its spells. The creature can cast the spell by either touching the required component (but not if the component is in another creature’s possession) or having the required component on its person. Sometimes spellcasting creatures utilize the Eschew Materials feat to avoid fussing with noncostly components. A spellcasting creature is not actually a member of a class unless its entry says so, and it does not gain any class abilities. A creature with access to cleric spells must prepare them in the normal manner and receives domain spells if noted, but it does not receive domain granted powers unless it has at least one level in the cleric class. I am not exactly sure what you do after reading that. According to that you would cast as a 6th level cleric. Then have 3 levels of actual cleric. Hmm, odd.
hogarth 02-13-07, 01:52 PM	I'd say "no" on driders picking other domains than what are listed. As Macbrea said above, they're not clerics -- they're just aberrations that get cleric spells, but none of the other benefits (turning, for example). As another example, red dragons can cast Chaos, Evil and Fire domain spells as arcane spells. As far as I'm concerned, that list is fixed; you can't just substitute in any three domains in their place. Another question: If a non-spellcasting character has a spellcasting leadership cohort, is he allowed to buy wands or scrolls for the cohort to use or is he restricted by his own caster level (i.e. zero)?
Hirumajoe 02-13-07, 01:54 PM	I'd say "no" on driders picking other domains than what are listed. As Macbrea said above, they're not clerics -- they're just aberrations that get cleric spells, but none of the other benefits (turning, for example). As another example, red dragons can cast Chaos, Evil and Fire domain spells as arcane spells. As far as I'm concerned, that list is fixed; you can't just substitute in any three domains in their place. Another question: If a non-spellcasting character has a spellcasting leadership cohort, is he allowed to buy wands or scrolls for the cohort to use or is he restricted by his own caster level (i.e. zero)? I thought it was based on ECL of the character and not casting level? Otherwise, clerics with the magic domain and running around with Magic Missile at 9th level might have issues. Edit: So wait, if a Drider were to be shifted to Chaotic Good Alignment through the use of credits, and started worshiping a good deity, and took a level of Cleric, how many Domains would they have and which ones would be available? Say for argument's sake the good deity's domains are Chaos, Good, Travel and Strength.
hogarth 02-13-07, 02:09 PM	I thought it was based on ECL of the character and not casting level? Otherwise, clerics with the magic domain and running around with Magic Missile at 9th level might have issues. Sorry, the wand thing was a red herring. But scrolls are capped to the gladiator's caster level +2. So is the cohort limited to scrolls with CL 1 or 2? Edit: So wait, if a Drider were to be shifted to Chaotic Good Alignment through the use of credits, and started worshiping a good deity, and took a level of Cleric, how many Domains would they have and which ones would be available? Say for argument's sake the good deity's domains are Chaos, Good, Travel and Strength. Clerics changing religions isn't covered by the Core rules, as far as I know.
TelinArtho 02-13-07, 02:10 PM	I'd say "no" on driders picking other domains than what are listed. As Macbrea said above, they're not clerics -- they're just aberrations that get cleric spells, but none of the other benefits (turning, for example). As another example, red dragons can cast Chaos, Evil and Fire domain spells as arcane spells. As far as I'm concerned, that list is fixed; you can't just substitute in any three domains in their place. Another question: If a non-spellcasting character has a spellcasting leadership cohort, is he allowed to buy wands or scrolls for the cohort to use or is he restricted by his own caster level (i.e. zero)? I want to point out that there's a very specific difference between the way dragons with casting ability cast and the way driders cast: Spells: A dragon knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer of the level indicated in its variety description, gaining bonus spells for a high Charisma score. Some dragons can also cast spells from the cleric list or cleric domain lists as arcane spells. Spells: Driders cast spells as 6th-level clerics, wizards, or sorcerers. Drider clerics can choose from the following domains: Chaos, Destruction, Evil, and Trickery. The typical spells prepared shown here are for a drider sorcerer. Note that the dragon is casting arcane spells as a sorcerer - and sometimes can cast divine spells/domain spells as arcane spells. Compare that to the drider - who is casting spells as a cleric and has domains. As to the quote MacBrea brought up - I'm not sure which one would take precedence - the quote MacBrea brought up from the Types, Subtypes and Abilities section of the SRD or the quote that TM brought up from the Improving Monsters section of the SRD... Personally, I would say that TM's quote would take priority, but again - that is my opinion and not based on whether either one is correct.
TelinArtho 02-13-07, 02:16 PM	I agree, if you were worshiping a diety other than Lolth, you should get those domains. It'd be kinda silly for a drider worshiping some other Chaotic Evil diety to get Lolth's spells. Crafting feats would definitely be a good choice. If you want another direction, you could try power attack and Divine Might. Although, you'd have to put off Divine Might itself until 9th level (13 ECL) due to the fact you only cast like a cleric, not turn like a cleric. So perhaps some feats supplementing a two-handed (as opposed to two-weapon) style might be reasonable. Although, again your melee abilities are going to be rather weak. Hmm... Can Driders take Spirited Charge like Centaurs? You also have a natural attack form, so you could just pickup deflect arrows, no? I had considered getting Divine Might up until I decided to go Cleric instead of Sorcerer. As a sorcerer I would've been looking at a 24 Cha unbuffed (and with crafting - probably 30...) - so divine might would've been a nice addition to it. (and this would be covered by making the character a drider sorcerer and picking up cleric levels as she advanced). In any case, I don't have a lot of feats to work with - and power attack just isn't the bang-for-the-buck that it would need to be. No driders can't gain Spirited Charge like centaurs since they are not given that nifty little line that is in the Zelekhut description... Not a biggie though anyway - since I won't have access to martial weapons - so no lance... Deflect arrows is certainly an idea, but is not likely to be as useful at higher levels, except as a deterrant for alpha strikers (which I suppose is an argument for it on its own...). I'll certainly consider it though.
hogarth 02-13-07, 02:26 PM	I want to point out that there's a very specific difference between the way dragons with casting ability cast and the way driders cast: Actually, there are lots of differences. But there's one similarity -- it specifies a list of domains you can pick from in the monster entry. If this was a home campaign, I'd have no problem with jiggering things around, of course. I just don't know if that's appropriate or not for the Core Coliseum. (I'm not emotionally invested in the answer one way or other. :))
TheMagister 02-13-07, 02:31 PM	Driders get TWF as a racial feat.
TelinArtho 02-13-07, 02:39 PM	Driders get TWF as a racial feat. A standard drider does have TWF as one of its feats - but it isn't a bonus feat - if that's what you mean.
TheMagister 02-13-07, 02:44 PM	Yeah, that's what I meant. No, I didn't check it. :doh:
MindWandererB 02-13-07, 05:40 PM	As to the quote MacBrea brought up - I'm not sure which one would take precedence - the quote MacBrea brought up from the Types, Subtypes and Abilities section of the SRD or the quote that TM brought up from the Improving Monsters section of the SRD... Personally, I would say that TM's quote would take priority, but again - that is my opinion and not based on whether either one is correct.Macbrea's quote does not contradict the general rule that caster levels as a monster and from a class stack. It does make explicit that no other class features stack. For instance, the drider doesn't get the granted powers of its domains. So if it chose Destruction: DESTRUCTION DOMAIN Granted Power: You gain the smite power, the supernatural ability to make a single melee attack with a +4 bonus on attack rolls and a bonus on damage rolls equal to your cleric level (if you hit). You must declare the smite before making the attack. This ability is usable once per day.A drider with 1 level of cleric would add only +1 damage despite its caster level of 7. It would also turn undead at level 1--and oddly, have an alignment-based aura of a level 1 cleric, too. For the sake of simplicity, I'd go along with allowing them to choose their domains. For one, it's true that their entry assumes they worship Lloth--for instance, no one would arguing that gnoll clerics must worship Erythnul, but that's the way the MM/SRD sets them up. For another, a drider whose domains were racially fixed would technically be able to choose different domains if they took levels as a cleric, and I have no idea how that would work, mechanically.
Rauul 02-13-07, 07:27 PM	Not really sure if this should be posted here or not... but after reading the last 2 pages... --------------------------------------------------------------------- As the monster manual is pretty much set up for party encounters.. and CoCo is a Solo Encounter maybe you need 2 set of Encounter generaters.. Cause Honestly.. at level 3.. and getting 96: 2 Imps (devils) [CR2] Is an Instant Lost.. Spell-Like Abilities At will—detect good, detect magic, invisibility (self only); 1/day—suggestion (DC 15). Caster level 6th. The save DC is Charisma-based. Please read Page 48 of the DMG.. A monster of CR 4 is a Challenge for a 4 person party of 4th level.. So using that formula.. where does 2 CR2 Monsters = level 3 Challenge.. They would be a Challenge for a party of 4 level 3 Pc's, they are suicidal for a single level 3 pc.. This is why if you look at the monster fights that i have heard people complaining about.. and even one was Lowered do to being "to hard" you need to Address that CoCo isn't a party orientated D&D game.. but a Solo Adventure.. your CR > EL , EL = CR/2 A Single CR1 or 2 monster would or should be a Challenge to a EL 3 player. Shrug just my 2 cents..
Etiquette_Gnome 02-13-07, 07:42 PM	Keep in mind the way EL vs EL works. A party of 3rd level PCs is effectively an EL 7. Actually, a 'challenge' as defined by the system is something where the party will succeed with only a 20% loss of resources. Half a party's resources is used when the CR is two higher than the party's average level (Monster EL = Party EL - 2), and it's a 50/50 chance of success at all when the CR is 4 higher (Monster EL = Party EL). Therefore, a solo-PC is an equal EL to a creature of CR equal to his level, which means success is roughly 50/50. In order to give that solo-PC a 'challenge' as a normal party would experience, he would have to fight monsters 4 CR below his level.
Eluria 02-13-07, 08:50 PM	I love coming back from work having not checked this forum for 2 days and seeing how many posts there can be going back and forth about something like a Frost Giant Rogue 20... this board is awesome. I'm glad to see a few more new first timers - I feel like having finished my first 3FC and seeing how things actually work makes all the rules of CoCo a little less daunting... since I'm still not a seasoned pro, would anyone mind combing through my second character attempt? Mohmat Comments and questions welcome; thanks for checking!
MindWandererB 02-13-07, 09:06 PM	I love coming back from work having not checked this forum for 2 days and seeing how many posts there can be going back and forth about something like a Frost Giant Rogue 20... this board is awesome. I'm glad to see a few more new first timers - I feel like having finished my first 3FC and seeing how things actually work makes all the rules of CoCo a little less daunting... since I'm still not a seasoned pro, would anyone mind combing through my second character attempt? Mohmat Comments and questions welcome; thanks for checking! Nice. It's a solid, proven concept. Going for Slayer, I presume? With the mounted combat, that should work well for you. I look forward to seeing it in action. Only two mistakes that I see: your income seems to be only 69 gp, not 70 ([11+10]*3*1.11 = 69.93--just short). And you need to list the emcumbrance thresholds for your mount [0-230 (Light), 231-460 (Medium), 461-690 (Heavy)]--and speaking of which, you listed the encumbrance as Medium, but it seems to be Light.
Eluria 02-13-07, 09:23 PM	Nice. It's a solid, proven concept. Going for Slayer, I presume? With the mounted combat, that should work well for you. I look forward to seeing it in action. Only two mistakes that I see: your income seems to be only 69 gp, not 70 ([11+10]*3*1.11 = 69.93--just short). And you need to list the emcumbrance thresholds for your mount [0-230 (Light), 231-460 (Medium), 461-690 (Heavy)]--and speaking of which, you listed the encumbrance as Medium, but it seems to be Light. Thanks MW - yeah, going for Slayer. I was thinking about trying to get psicrystal aff/cont, but the threat of deflect arrows made me think rapid shot is pretty much a necessity. I'll make those changes; I think you're right on both. I thought you rounded up income, like spell levels :) - so much for that extra 1gp!
McJarvis 02-13-07, 09:24 PM	Thanks MW - yeah, going for Slayer. I was thinking about trying to get psicrystal aff/cont, but the threat of deflect arrows made me think rapid shot is pretty much a necessity. I'll make those changes; I think you're right on both. I thought you rounded up income, like spell levels :) - so much for that extra 1gp! Some players write down exactly how much silver/copper their crafting makes so they don't lose a cent. In your case this might help out(unlike with my character Art who gets something like an extra 7sp every fight...) since you would more or less get an extra gp every other fight.
Eluria 02-13-07, 09:29 PM	Some players write down exactly how much silver/copper their crafting makes so they don't lose a cent. In your case this might help out(unlike with my character Art who gets something like an extra 7sp every fight...) since you would more or less get an extra gp every other fight. Now we're talking! cha-ching!!
NiQil 02-13-07, 09:31 PM	And since we're in the character criticizing mood, feel free to make mince meat of my new creations: Tamis Ruhl Truls Rohk Tyden Rayn Branching out a little...trying to get out of my full BAB comfort zone...
MindWandererB 02-13-07, 09:54 PM	And since we're in the character criticizing mood, feel free to make mince meat of my new creations: Tamis Ruhl Truls Rohk Tyden Rayn Branching out a little...trying to get out of my full BAB comfort zone... Interesting. Tamis seems... improbable. Like any psychic warrior, he has potential, but it's going to be a while. He'll be a competent archer, but without a mount, a significant speed boost, or stealth, he has no way of enforcing a ranged battle--I doubt you'll get any use out of Far Shot except for a few rounds on the Plains. Once your opponent forces melee, two claws at 1d3+1 won't get him very far, although he might be in better shape when you can augment that. Truls is looking a lot like Cyra Val. I'm sure he'll develop a bit differently,. but bear Cyra's career in mind--she was a Failure until pretty late. Since he's an elf, adding a bow might be helpful for those extreme-range battles, especially since you have stealth to add to that. Tyden is actually a lot like Tamis. Ironically, due to wild surged Vigor, he might actually be better in close combat, but you're relying exclusively on Psionic Shot rays from dorjes. The good news is that those are reliable--Crystal Shard is exempt from DR, SR, and energy resistance--but the bad news is that they're slow (one attack every other round pre-Psionic Meditation), and have limited range. And again, you have no way to keep your opponent away other than hiding behind Vigor and Force Screen, except for a few rounds of Burst. Which might be enough, depending on how vicious they are. But a good melee build will rush in and trip/sunder/grapple/disarm you into oblivion. Of course, like any full caster build, the more powers you get, the better shape you'll be in. I strongly suggest a weapon with longer range, and a melee weapon.
NiQil 02-13-07, 10:48 PM	Interesting. Tamis seems... improbable. Like any psychic warrior, he has potential, but it's going to be a while. He'll be a competent archer, but without a mount, a significant speed boost, or stealth, he has no way of enforcing a ranged battle--I doubt you'll get any use out of Far Shot except for a few rounds on the Plains. Once your opponent forces melee, two claws at 1d3+1 won't get him very far, although he might be in better shape when you can augment that. Tamis is my attempt to see what I can do with someone equally proficient at both range and melee, rather than favoring one or the other. All feats will be archery feats, but all powers will be based around the Claws. Truls is looking a lot like Cyra Val. I'm sure he'll develop a bit differently,. but bear Cyra's career in mind--she was a Failure until pretty late. Since he's an elf, adding a bow might be helpful for those extreme-range battles, especially since you have stealth to add to that. Truls is primarily a melee build, but I needed the archery feats to make range not so oppressive. I'm sorta looking ahead to 6th level with this build, when I can take EWP: Bastard Sword and start throwing 1d10+4 + psychic strike mind blades around at range and at melee. The bow is something I'm still debating, but it's hard to justify the cost of a bow for a range boost at the expense of losing the extra damage of Psychic Strike. Tyden is actually a lot like Tamis. Ironically, due to wild surged Vigor, he might actually be better in close combat, but you're relying exclusively on Psionic Shot rays from dorjes. The good news is that those are reliable--Crystal Shard is exempt from DR, SR, and energy resistance--but the bad news is that they're slow (one attack every other round pre-Psionic Meditation), and have limited range. And again, you have no way to keep your opponent away other than hiding behind Vigor and Force Screen, except for a few rounds of Burst. Which might be enough, depending on how vicious they are. But a good melee build will rush in and trip/sunder/grapple/disarm you into oblivion. Of course, like any full caster build, the more powers you get, the better shape you'll be in. I strongly suggest a weapon with longer range, and a melee weapon. Tyden is my attempt at an alpha strike build. The dorjes are there primarily there to plug through level 3 until I get another power. At 4, I can pick up Crystal Shard, which I can then throw out 1d6 + 2d6 Wild Surge + 2d6 Psionic Shot from memory at level 4 every other round several times per battle...with that being a touch attack, it should be fairly easy to land on most combatants. And then I can start adding other powers to it. Energy Ray (same dice as above, but elemental, and if sonic, can be used to sunder) will follow, and then the other powers from there. Melee is not a super concern for me, since I can jack my AC pretty decently with Wild Surged Force Screen and have a decent touch AC to help against grapples and the like, and Wild Surged Vigor will work out as well. And dorjes can be used in melee/grapples/etc at no penalty, so my only real concern are sunder/disarm builds...and only for a level.
jjones 02-14-07, 12:14 AM	And dorjes can be used in melee/grapples/etc at no penalty, so my only real concern are sunder/disarm builds...and only for a level. No offence, but a sunder/melee build won't be sundering ur dorje. With only 19 hp, he'll cut u in two in one good melee swing. My guy can do 2d6+18 per attack. Not likely u'll find him sundering ur dorje. But that's just me. I've spent the last couple days looking at many other melee builds and those with barb/caster levels are pretty frickin' deadly. A buff, a rage and a hack, and 19hp's don't go a long way. But then again, i could be wrong. This will be my first fight, so i'll see how the differing battlegrounds affect the playability of a certain arch-type. I might sing a differnt tune later, but for now...the least of ur worries should be melee builds sundering ur dorje. JJ
Abyssal Stalker 02-14-07, 01:20 AM	Not really sure if this should be posted here or not... but after reading the last 2 pages... --------------------------------------------------------------------- As the monster manual is pretty much set up for party encounters.. and CoCo is a Solo Encounter maybe you need 2 set of Encounter generaters.. Cause Honestly.. at level 3.. and getting 96: 2 Imps (devils) [CR2] Is an Instant Lost.. Spell-Like Abilities At will—detect good, detect magic, invisibility (self only); 1/day—suggestion (DC 15). Caster level 6th. The save DC is Charisma-based. Please read Page 48 of the DMG.. A monster of CR 4 is a Challenge for a 4 person party of 4th level.. So using that formula.. where does 2 CR2 Monsters = level 3 Challenge.. They would be a Challenge for a party of 4 level 3 Pc's, they are suicidal for a single level 3 pc.. This is why if you look at the monster fights that i have heard people complaining about.. and even one was Lowered do to being "to hard" you need to Address that CoCo isn't a party orientated D&D game.. but a Solo Adventure.. your CR > EL , EL = CR/2 A Single CR1 or 2 monster would or should be a Challenge to a EL 3 player. Shrug just my 2 cents.. On the other hand, the party is supposed to win the encounter. Here the odds should be 50-50. And we are using 36pt buy and we are creating optimized builds, trying to counter all the most usual tactics. But you are definitely right about that CR isn't supposed to handle the way we are using it here. And that some of the monster fights are easier than others (but that is also very character-dependant).
MindWandererB 02-14-07, 01:32 AM	No offence, but a sunder/melee build won't be sundering ur dorje. With only 19 hp, he'll cut u in two in one good melee swing. My guy can do 2d6+18 per attack. Not likely u'll find him sundering ur dorje. But that's just me. I've spent the last couple days looking at many other melee builds and those with barb/caster levels are pretty frickin' deadly. A buff, a rage and a hack, and 19hp's don't go a long way. But then again, i could be wrong. This will be my first fight, so i'll see how the differing battlegrounds affect the playability of a certain arch-type. I might sing a differnt tune later, but for now...the least of ur worries should be melee builds sundering ur dorje. JJWith wild surged Vigor, yes, you are quite wrong. That 19 HP is really 44 after that. And your 2d6+18 is only after buffs (which you can't do every fight) and with full Power Attack (which, against AC 23 or higher, may not be so bright), and with 1/day abilities that apply to a single attack. Plus, there are sundering and grappling builds that don't necessarily do so much damage. My Maya, for instance, would probably charge in, sunder both dorjes, then ride away and shoot arrows from afar. Disarm builds often have low damage, as well, and even some grapple builds (who needs Str with Enlarge, Improved Grapple, and Grip of Iron?).
Erithmu 02-14-07, 01:40 AM	I love coming back from work having not checked this forum for 2 days and seeing how many posts there can be going back and forth about something like a Frost Giant Rogue 20... this board is awesome. I'm glad to see a few more new first timers - I feel like having finished my first 3FC and seeing how things actually work makes all the rules of CoCo a little less daunting... since I'm still not a seasoned pro, would anyone mind combing through my second character attempt? Mohmat Comments and questions welcome; thanks for checking!Just a note on race. I am not sure of your planned progression, but you are going to hit XP penalties due to multiclassing if you take another nomad level. Having built a slayer build, I would have gone back and gotten the 14 wisdom to take Psi meditation, rather than having my Int that high. Psionic save DC's ramp up quick due to the innate heighten ability of most offensive augments. You could drop 6 pts from int into Wis, and then when you fight someone without deflect arrows you can unload the powerful shots every turn. I would recommend some form of offensive power to start with, even if it is close range. Against a high AC person with deflect arrows it is going to be tough to deal damage, but bypassing AC with a touch attack might allow you to win some fights. I like crystal shard (mostly for it's no SR quality) personally, I find that even though my slayer is archer spec, I use powers to win most of the time.
Erithmu 02-14-07, 02:13 AM	And since we're in the character criticizing mood, feel free to make mince meat of my new creations: Tamis Ruhl Truls Rohk Tyden Rayn Branching out a little...trying to get out of my full BAB comfort zone...Tamis: I'm not sure I like the choice of a small sized race. While I read below your comments about sending feats to archery and powers to claws, I think your going to find that you are subpar at both and excel at neither. I have a feeling that you might feel like MWB did with Sunstroke. Very balanced, but always outclassed. I would probably switch out skate to learn the claws of the beast power if only to augment it due to it's long duration to add some damage if you feel like you do want to be a goblin. Truls: I am of the belief that soulknives make the best alpha strikers. However, they only function if the victim doesn't know it. (Ask Zevox and MWB about their run ins with my soulknives (Zevox took 49 from one hit (ECL 6), and MWB took a good 30) However, if the opponent sees it coming, it wont work. Like MWB said, it will be a rough early career, but get a movement booster and I think you might start to have some fun Tyden: My major concern here is the planned power selection. I mean if you are looking at an alpha strike build, why do you need so many powers that do the same thing. Swarm of Crystals -> Energy Burst (look at Perius) Energy Push, Recall Agony, Concussion Blast -> Pick one of them and take some powers that will help out. Touchsight you will probably need, other powers are something like freedom of movement, or Power resistance. Wilders only have a limited number of powers, choose them well. Also Expanded knowledge is your friend! Also if you are going to focus on attack roll powers why is disintegrate not on the list? While I am not sure that I would take some of the lvl 8 and 9 powers, I do think there is a wealth of useful powers in the 3-6 range. I would look at a few of the ECL 6-8s and figure out what powers might be useful at those levels. I think limiting yourself to 1-3 level powers might cripple you. (Minor globe of invulnerability?)
jjones 02-14-07, 03:13 AM	With wild surged Vigor, yes, you are quite wrong. That 19 HP is really 44 after that. And your 2d6+18 is only after buffs (which you can't do every fight) and with full Power Attack (which, against AC 23 or higher, may not be so bright), and with 1/day abilities that apply to a single attack. Plus, there are sundering and grappling builds that don't necessarily do so much damage. My Maya, for instance, would probably charge in, sunder both dorjes, then ride away and shoot arrows from afar. Disarm builds often have low damage, as well, and even some grapple builds (who needs Str with Enlarge, Improved Grapple, and Grip of Iron?). Well, i confess my knowledge of psionics is about ZERO. So i dunno what wild-surge vigor does. But taking into account, those 1/day abilities, on a charge, still gives me a +18 to hit. Not a big concern to put in PA -2/+4, making it +16 to hit for 2d6+22. But u are right, i can only do that in 1 out of 3 fights, so it's not as good as i'd like it to be. But, can he do his wild-surge vigor every fight as well? or multiple times per fight...just curious. Zero psionics knowlege here. JJ
jjones 02-14-07, 03:34 AM	kk...done some reading but i still may be way off base here. Level 1 [DC 14]: Crystal Shard, Energy Ray, Force Screen, Mind Thrust, Vigor Level 2 [DC 15]: Concussion Blast, Energy Push, Ego Whip, Recall Agony, Swarm of Crystals Level 3 [DC 16]: Energy Bolt Doesn't Tyden only get two 1st level powers?
hogarth 02-14-07, 07:10 AM	And then I can start adding other powers to it. Energy Ray (same dice as above, but elemental, and if sonic, can be used to sunder) will follow, and then the other powers from there. Someone pointed out to me that because of weird Core Coliseum rules, you can't target attended objects with an energy attack, even a ray.
Eluria 02-14-07, 09:12 AM	Just a note on race. I am not sure of your planned progression, but you are going to hit XP penalties due to multiclassing if you take another nomad level. OMG I'm so glad you pointed that out! I had been making him human until the end; so many tweaks I forgot about the big picture. Having built a slayer build, I would have gone back and gotten the 14 wisdom to take Psi meditation, rather than having my Int that high. Also a great catch; it's funny, when you start thinking about a character, and then things change as you start actually making it. I think the int got me greedy - psi med is too good too pass up. Thanks Rith! Changes incoming :)
Macbrea 02-14-07, 09:21 AM	You are only able to sunder with a melee weapon as per the base SRD rules. You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding. If you’re attempting to sunder a weapon or shield, follow the steps outlined here. In the non-core books they allow you to make sunder attacks with a ranged weapon with a feat. This means that because a ray is considered a ranged attack it cannot be used to sunder an attended object. Once an object becomes unattended then it follows the rules for breaking an object. This has always been the case in 3.0 and 3.5. There are really weird rules that go into effect when a character is possessing an object. Watch this extreme example: Roger the 10th level commoner is wearing a paper machette suit and wielding a quarter staff. He jumps in the pit of lava in a fit of rage. The suit and quarterstaff will take no damage until Roger has died. At that point they will take 20d6 fire damage per round. This is because the attended object is an item in possession of the person and oddly unaffected by their surroundings by the rules. There is only one case in which an item can take the damage. That is found in the following rules: Items Surviving after a Saving Throw Unless the descriptive text for the spell specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects). This being when you roll a natural 1 on your savings throws. This cannot happen on rays because they don't require saves. If you were struck by an energy missile though it could destroy a random object on your person.
TelinArtho 02-14-07, 09:48 AM	kk...done some reading but i still may be way off base here. Doesn't Tyden only get two 1st level powers? NiQil has silvered out the ones he doesn't have yet. He just has them listed for reference for himself (I believe). /d
hogarth 02-14-07, 09:50 AM	This has always been the case in 3.0 and 3.5. There are really weird rules that go into effect when a character is possessing an object. Watch this extreme example: Roger the 10th level commoner is wearing a paper machette suit and wielding a quarter staff. He jumps in the pit of lava in a fit of rage. The suit and quarterstaff will take no damage until Roger has died. At that point they will take 20d6 fire damage per round. Here's another example: Allison the Pious is duelling Bob the Sunderer. Bob damages Allison's morningstar with a sunder attack, but fortunately Allison has memorized a Make Whole spell. Of course, she can't target her weapon while she's holding it in her hand, so she does what any sensible person would do: she drops her morningstar on the ground, casts the spell, then picks it up again. :D Edit: I misremembered the house rule.
Macbrea 02-14-07, 10:25 AM	I believe you can target objects in your own possession. Though, I may be wrong. What you cannot target is objects in other peoples possessions. This has to do with the rules that spells targeted at peoples possessions hit the person instead. Now, you might be right on a literal reading of the rules. Warning to anyone trying to play in my home game. Don't jump in the lava and expect your gear to be fine!
hogarth 02-14-07, 10:38 AM	I believe you can target objects in your own possession. Though, I may be wrong. What you cannot target is objects in other peoples possessions. This has to do with the rules that spells targeted at peoples possessions hit the person instead. Actually, I'm misrepresenting the house rule here. This is the exact ruling: Q: Can psionic energy powers (such as Energy Missile, Energy Ball, etc) be used to sunder attended objects/equipment on a character? A: No, it can only target unattended objects such as a dropped sword or a chair. Make Whole works fine on an attended object, just like Chill Metal or Warp Woood does. Otherwise, why would there be a save category "Will negates (object)"? Sorry for the confusion.
Caterane 02-14-07, 11:44 AM	The links to the old characters above level 10 don't work anymore. I also cannot find the old Fights of Gladius thread. Can someone help me to look into that please? Maybe the links are broken or I missed the thread...
hogarth 02-14-07, 11:50 AM	The links to the old characters above level 10 don't work anymore. I also cannot find the old Fights of Gladius thread. Can someone help me to look into that please? Maybe the links are broken or I missed the thread... The old threads have been moved to the CoCo archive: http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/f-483.html For instance, here's the old "Gladiators of Gladius" thread: http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-190985.html I don't know how to fix the broken links other than by hand.
SauroGrenom 02-14-07, 11:55 AM	The links to the old characters above level 10 don't work anymore. I also cannot find the old Fights of Gladius thread. Can someone help me to look into that please? Maybe the links are broken or I missed the thread...We may need to replace the characters thread soon. It's over 1000 posts, and I think that's the cutoff. If that's the case, we should probably have people repost characters to a new thread, and have some members do some of the work of revising all the links to the new locations.
Caterane 02-14-07, 12:06 PM	Which number is the Gladiators of Gladius thread? Because that's where all ECL 11+ PCs are in. I can't find it in that archive list.
hogarth 02-14-07, 12:19 PM	Which number is the Gladiators of Gladius thread? Because that's where all ECL 11+ PCs are in. I can't find it in that archive list. :confused: I posted the link in my previous post. Here it is again, for those who missed it. http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-190985.html
Caterane 02-14-07, 12:32 PM	It doesn't work that's why I ask. I have to write a PM to the Boards Lead and tell them to move these two threads back in here. Since the link doesnt work I need a number.
hogarth 02-14-07, 12:34 PM	It doesn't work that's why I ask. I have to write a PM to the Boards Lead and tell them to move these two threads back in here. Since the link doesnt work I need a number. It loads up for me, although it takes a while. You can see from the URL that the thread is #190985.
Macbrea 02-14-07, 12:38 PM	What he is saying is none of the characters 11+ load anymore. Which means they might have been pruned off.
Macbrea 02-14-07, 12:40 PM	I have a question someone might be able to answer. A character is Wizard 5/Red Wizard 4. Which gives him spell power +2 for an effective caster level of 11. Does this qualify him for Lich. Which states, 'The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher.'
SauroGrenom 02-14-07, 01:05 PM	I have a suggestion about a rules change that we should probably consider. Specifically I think we should allow characters to sell back any none expendable piece of equipment at the same price it was purchased at. This comes from thinking about the relative potency of craft item feats. As it is craft item feats grant a huge advantage in the amount and potency of equipment a character can buy at any level. But also it grants the character incredible flexibility in how they can modify the character in the future. For example a character with craft wondrous items can make horse shoes of speed for his mount. Then at a later time he gets a pegasus mount, and sells the shoes at no cost since the mount is flying most of the time anyway. And instead the character crafts some "boots of speed" for the mount. The whole process allows the character with craft wondrous items to mix and match his equipment as needed while the character develops through several levels and needs different kinds of equipment. All this takes place at no gold cost for selling stuff at half price. While the warrior in a similar situation is burning cash left and right to try and keep up. This is exacerbated by the fact that the whole time the warrior has less equipment because he cannot "buy" it at half price in the first place. The advantage becomes really excessive at higher levels where "old" pieces of expensive equipment are replaced with new ones on a regular basis. Our current rules basically require that any character make "permanent" purchasing decisions unless they have the craft items feats. This has the benefit of adding a sense of history to the character, but it also has the effect of making the craft wondrous items feat the second most overpowered feat in coco (second only to leadership). It's a relatively major rules change, but I think that allowing characters to sell non-expendable equipment at purchase price is really necessary to slim down the advantages of the craft wondrous items feat and to players of melee characters to enjoy a similar degree of flexibility with respect to the equipment their characters use.
TelinArtho 02-14-07, 01:13 PM	I think I would be okay with this proposal. I think it would go a long way to helping curb the crafting-only mentality that we all seem to enjoy...
hogarth 02-14-07, 01:18 PM	Specifically I think we should allow characters to sell back any non expendable piece of equipment at the same price it was purchased at. This comes from thinking about the relative potency of craft item feats. If this were allowed, why would unused expendables be excluded?
Macbrea 02-14-07, 01:28 PM	The problem with being able to sell back at same prince items means that people could purchase items specific for a single task without worrying about the fact at the end of the cycle they could just sell it back. Example: want to try out a hand of glory. Buy the hand of glory for 3 fights. See if you like it and it helps your strategy. If you don't like it sell it back. I am not particularly sure that should be the norm. Note: Lord Frost would benefit hugely from this because his change of size from tiny to small required him sell all of his enchanted armor to buy new armor.
TelinArtho 02-14-07, 01:29 PM	Because expendables are situational and as a character progresses in ECL, some may become less useful. Expendables are commonly viewed as a deciding factor anyway as well, especially before the expendable cap was in place.
Abyssal Stalker 02-14-07, 01:31 PM	Let's sell crafted items with one'quarter price. That balances it a lot. If we allow free buying and selling, I think that's a bad thing.
hogarth 02-14-07, 01:34 PM	Because expendables are situational and as a character progresses in ECL, some may become less useful. Expendables are commonly viewed as a deciding factor anyway as well, especially before the expendable cap was in place. A purchased griffon (which I'm guessing Sauro may have had in mind when he proposed this) is situational, and as a character progresses in ECL, becomes less useful. At lower levels, a purchased ally is commonly viewed as a deciding factor anyway. At any rate, why would you buy any item if it weren't situationally useful? And why would you sell it if it weren't becoming less useful?
TelinArtho 02-14-07, 01:41 PM	First of all - I wouldn't have included purchased allies in this grouping anyway. Yes - I realize that you are going to sell anything that is no longer useful if you have no reason to keep it (a loss). Perhaps the better route would be to sell crafted items at half the crafted cost (or 1/4 of the market price). MacBrea certainly had a more reasonable solution. In either case, the current situation dictates that people who can craft in any way - should - to the best of their ability. This is why non-casters frequently pick up weaponsmithing/armorsmithing - even if it is just to benefit from the one-time savings of 550gp for a mithril shirt. The people who can't craft to their fullest (ie those who don't have access to Craft Wondrous Item in particular, but other craft feats as well), seem to be at a serious disadvantage compared to those who can.
hogarth 02-14-07, 01:54 PM	In either case, the current situation dictates that people who can craft in any way - should - to the best of their ability. This is why non-casters frequently pick up weaponsmithing/armorsmithing - even if it is just to benefit from the one-time savings of 550gp for a mithril shirt. The people who can't craft to their fullest (ie those who don't have access to Craft Wondrous Item in particular, but other craft feats as well), seem to be at a serious disadvantage compared to those who can. I was probably wrong about Sauro wanting to sell his griffon. Mea culpa. For the record, I agree that a magic item crafting character being able to sell items "at cost" (or above cost, if they have the Sell Item skill package!) is a rather unfair advantage. I kind of prefer the idea of equalizing things by allowing anyone to sell items back "at cost", though, because it doesn't punish anyone for buying an item that sounds good but turns out to be a "white elephant" in the arena.
SauroGrenom 02-14-07, 02:11 PM	Just to answer the peanut gallery, I wasn't really thinking of selling Kracknol's griffon. I was thinking of building a new character of the iron man, and was making a list of the must have feats. Craft wondrous items was on that list, and I noticed how the benefits of that feat just keep coming as levels increase. It has so much to do with the ability to sell stuff at cost in addition to the ability to get stuff at half price. In an effort to keep the idea a simple one, I suggested non-expendables. Expendables are cheap enough that you can get what you need whenever you need it and if the item "expires" no big loss. But other items cost thousands of gold, and if a character "grows out" of an item they are sometimes stuck with it or face a huge wealth loss. A golden example is the armor on lord frost. But I would also have no problem with a character getting a hand of glory and using it for a 3FC before the player decides the item isn't as good as he thought and wants to swap it and an old +2 shortsword for boots of speed. That kind of option allows players to try out more things with their characters. It's not entirely unrealistic either. Trading magic items like this is something that players do all the time in a normal game. The inability to respond to the current needs of the character is a major disadvantage for characters that cannot craft their own magic items. If I was going to do any selling of magic items for Kracknol, I'd sell the horseshoes of speed and perhaps swapping Kracknol's heavy flail for a bastard sword w/o the power storing ability. That powerstoring ability was awesome before the 3FC (Kracknol's never been in a 3FC), but now it's utility is way down. I'm not going to touch the allies thing. Allies need to get hit with a big ol nerf stick. But that's another issue for another discussion on another day.
TheMagister 02-14-07, 03:46 PM	Check him out. I think I've got him beaten into some semblance of a playable "pounce" type character. Jar-red he ain't, but he's got potential. Suggestions? Comments?
hogarth 02-14-07, 03:53 PM	Check him out. I think I've got him beaten into some semblance of a playable "pounce" type character. Jar-red he ain't, but he's got potential. Suggestions? Comments? What's with all of the 1-pp cognizance crystals? Are you planning on using Empty Mind a lot? Note that you can use them only to manifest a power with a cost of exactly one power point (since you can't mixed pp from more than one source).
TheMagister 02-14-07, 04:02 PM	Ah! The trick to him is the Elan Resilience capability. I'm planning on crafting one Cognizance Crystals as a free action every time I activate him. That'll soon develop into DR of epic proportions. See, it basically stacks with biofeedback or adamantine since you apply it to whatever damage the Elan takes. So whatever gets through he pays to reduce. All those little plink-plink poisoned projectiles? Didn't damage me. Magic Missiles? Didn't damage me. Spike Growth? Didn't take damage, doesn't slow me down. There's all sorts of neat applications. You just need the pp to fuel it. My first incarnation had three instances of Psionic Talent for the extra 9 pp. I decided I needed a little more offense and so changed it to Speed of Thought/Psionic Charge and Craft Cognizance Crystal. I only lost 1 pp (8 crystals). TM
hogarth 02-14-07, 04:10 PM	Ah! The trick to him is the Elan Resilience capability. I'm planning on crafting one Cognizance Crystals as a free action every time I activate him. That'll soon develop into DR of epic proportions. See, it basically stacks with biofeedback or adamantine since you apply it to whatever damage the Elan takes. So whatever gets through he pays to reduce. All those little plink-plink poisoned projectiles? Didn't damage me. Magic Missiles? Didn't damage me. Spike Growth? Didn't take damage, doesn't slow me down. How are you going to stop a Magic Missile? Since it's an immediate action, you can only use Elan Resilience once per round. Powering it with a 1-pp crystal means that you're stopping 2 damage. Am I missing something?
TelinArtho 02-14-07, 04:10 PM	Check him out. I think I've got him beaten into some semblance of a playable "pounce" type character. Jar-red he ain't, but he's got potential. Suggestions? Comments? What's the point of pouncing if you can't get a reasonable number of attacks from it? Take Jar-red - 4 attacks. Or a variant on the way I designed Aquin - 7 attacks... Still - interesting - I just think he needs a whole lot more speed...
TheMagister 02-14-07, 04:15 PM	Can't you spend 6 pp to prevent 12 damage as an immediate action? I always figured it to be similar to an immediate action power. As for the "why pounce": it's the synergy of Strength of my Enemy with a double weapon. Hit 'em twice, suck two strength. Use Stand Still to keep 'em there. Hit 'em again, suck more strength. Keep it up till they're dead. Use pp to soak damage. As for the speed: he's got a base of 40 + 15 (skate). It don't get a whole lot faster than that without sacrificing levels of PsiWar. Brbn + Spd of Thought + some way to cast expeditious retreat + Xeph = 90/round. But I'm stuck with Elan for my concept, and I don't wanna give up Psywar for Barbie. No way to cast expeditious retreat, so I'll just have to make do with 55'/round + psionic charge or hustle.
MindWandererB 02-14-07, 04:18 PM	Can't you spend 6 pp to prevent 12 damage as an immediate action? I always figured it to be similar to an immediate action power.Sure, you could, if those 6 PP were all in the same place. You can't spend PP from multiple sources on the same thing, so you can't use 6 1-PP cognizance crystals on 1 use of Resiliance. If it were a free action, it would work, but it's not.
Zevox 02-14-07, 04:19 PM	Ah! The trick to him is the Elan Resilience capability. I'm planning on crafting one Cognizance Crystals as a free action every time I activate him. That'll soon develop into DR of epic proportions. See, it basically stacks with biofeedback or adamantine since you apply it to whatever damage the Elan takes. So whatever gets through he pays to reduce. All those little plink-plink poisoned projectiles? Didn't damage me. Magic Missiles? Didn't damage me. Spike Growth? Didn't take damage, doesn't slow me down. There's all sorts of neat applications. You just need the pp to fuel it. My first incarnation had three instances of Psionic Talent for the extra 9 pp. I decided I needed a little more offense and so changed it to Speed of Thought/Psionic Charge and Craft Cognizance Crystal. I only lost 1 pp (8 crystals). TM Um, what? How do you figure that? Resilience is an immediate action, so only one use per round, and you can only draw power points from a single source at a time. So you can use those crystals to get lots of rounds with 2 less damage whenever you get hit, but it'll never go beyond that using that strategy. Zevox
hogarth 02-14-07, 04:21 PM	Can't you spend 6 pp to prevent 12 damage as an immediate action? I always figured it to be similar to an immediate action power. You can, but not from six separate cognizance crystals: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#aSingleSource When using power points from a storage item to manifest a power, a psionic character may not pay the power’s cost with power points from more than one source. He must either use an item, his own power point reserve, or some other discrete power point source to pay the manifestation cost. I don't think six crystals are "a single source" or "an item". Maybe you can get a favorable ruling, though.
TelinArtho 02-14-07, 04:25 PM	I don't know how well stand still is going to come into play. Without reach - you are pretty limited. I recognize that with expansion it will certainly help - but I'm still not convinced. For an ECL6 character though - his attack bonus is pretty low. +6 with each side of the quarterstaff? Buffed with +1 from Shillelagh and another +1 from offensive precognition, it is getting better, but you could compare that to Farig, who at the same level has 4 attacks for (+9/+4)/(+9/+4). I do think it is funny that your quarterstaff is listed as dealing slashing damage though... (bit of a typo...) In any case, good luck with it. I would be more impressed with a build that can be used from ECL3+ though - or even better - ECL1+ :) But I'm just a perfectionist...
TheMagister 02-14-07, 04:33 PM	Well, Elan Resilience isn't a power though. @Telin - Farig's a straight fighter who focuses on a certain weapon. The tale of the tape with the quarterstaff is gonna be +6 (base) + 1 (precog) +2 (metaphysicalA) + 2 (should always be charging) = +11/+11. If enough of those hit, I can add strength boni to the calculation. Once the BAB gets to +6, I'll take Imp. TWF and catch up on the # of attacks. Until then, I'll have to make do.
hogarth 02-14-07, 04:37 PM	Well, Elan Resilience isn't a power though. If you want to argue that Elan Resilience not a power, then you can't use a cognizance crystal at all. Cognizance crystals store power points that psionic characters can use to pay for manifesting their powers. Thereafter, the owner can use power points stored in the crystal to manifest powers she knows. I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt on that one, though.
MindWandererB 02-14-07, 04:37 PM	Well, Elan Resilience isn't a power though.It's true that the rules don't make any mention of expenditure of PP that aren't powers, but the same principle should apply. Edit: Heh... hogarth has a good point.
TheMagister 02-14-07, 04:39 PM	So a 1st level elan psion who has (say) 10 pp, can only spend ONE on resilience (1=ML)? Or perhaps an elan fighter can't spend any (no ML).
SauroGrenom 02-14-07, 04:47 PM	MWB, I guess free processing ability for the guild traits went into the rules? Looking at CEF's thread I see they have more NEG processing ability than their rooms would indicate. It looks like they have a bonus from the guild traits in faith and politics. So is that right? Does the guild traits increase the guild processing ability?
hogarth 02-14-07, 04:47 PM	So a 1st level elan psion who has (say) 10 pp, can only spend ONE on resilience (1=ML)? Manifester level has nothing to do with it, so an elan psion can use any or all of his power points on elan resilience (subject to the 1/3 rule for CoCo purposes). I was thinking of making an elan psychic warrior myself with lots of copies of Psionic Talent. The issue is that you're forbidden to spend power points from more than one source (in your case, multiple 1-pp crystals). (Well, that and the fact that the rules say you can only manifest powers from cognizance crystals, not other abilities.)
SauroGrenom 02-14-07, 04:51 PM	So a 1st level elan psion who has (say) 10 pp, can only spend ONE on resilience (1=ML)? Or perhaps an elan fighter can't spend any (no ML).Considering the ruling on overchannel, psi-like abilities are not manifesting. Resilience is a psi-like ability and that's not "manifesting". So the restrictions (or feats or bonuses) that specifically apply to manifesting don't necessarily apply to psi-like abilities. Looks to me like you can use Resilience all you want from any pp source you have available.
TheMagister 02-14-07, 04:52 PM	Welldarnit. I'd be willing to debate the 1pp/instance thing, but there's no refuting the "cognizance crystals only pay for powers" language. Oh well. To the scrap heap with him. The only way he was gonna get enough pp was with crystals or psionic talent, and psionic talent steals too much from his offense. OOO! Another Elder chimes in!
MindWandererB 02-14-07, 04:56 PM	MWB, I guess free processing ability for the guild traits went into the rules? Looking at CEF's thread I see they have more NEG processing ability than their rooms would indicate. It looks like they have a bonus from the guild traits in faith and politics. So is that right? Does the guild traits increase the guild processing ability? Er, that's actually been in the rules since the current incarnation went live. I tried to check PSI for this, but I don't see your processing potential anywhere in the guild thread. Checking the other threads, I see that TAO is also missing this. Vath, you can process +500 EDU and +250 CON because of your guild traits. Edit: The "Trait Specialist" is new, though. I forgot to mention that in the Hall today.
SauroGrenom 02-14-07, 04:57 PM	The issue is that you're forbidden to spend power points from more than one source (in your case, multiple 1-pp crystals). (Well, that and the fact that the rules say you can only manifest powers from cognizance crystals, not other abilities.)From what I understand you're forbidden from manifesting powers from more than one source of pp. Since this isn't a power and it's not manifest, that's not an issue. There is nothing in the core rules I can find that says you're forbidden from using pp from more than one source on anything and everything that consumes pp. As far as I'm concerned, if feats like overchannel or power penetration apply only to powers "manifest" and psi-like abilities are not "manifest" for these feats, then clearly you cannot place restrictions normally placed on manifesting onto use of psi-like abilities. These two game elements are in two separate classifications that have not necessarily overlapping restrictions and enhancements.
MitzaVolchenko 02-14-07, 05:01 PM	Happy VD!!!
McJarvis 02-14-07, 05:02 PM	Happy VD!!! I think the abbreviation "VD" is reserved for something else ;)
TheMagister 02-14-07, 05:04 PM	Venereal Disease? What's so happy about it? {ducks} Don't be too hard on me. I wrote my wife a really sappy love poem. She's gonna flip.
nickbeat 02-14-07, 05:37 PM	Hey everyone. I have been gone for about a year now. I took some time off when my baby girl was born. I'm back now and ready for action. Lookin forward to mixin it up with you all soon!
MitzaVolchenko 02-14-07, 06:05 PM	Venereal Disease? What's so happy about it? {ducks} Don't be too hard on me. I wrote my wife a really sappy love poem. She's gonna flip. I'd say the happy part is not having it :P For the record, I think Valentine's Day is pretty much bunk, but I am willing to bend the rules a little bit to get an extra night this week with my lovey.
Macbrea 02-14-07, 06:21 PM	Yeah, speaking of which...
TheMagister 02-14-07, 06:24 PM	Yeah, speaking of which... :heehee Penny-Arcade (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic)'s strip is apropos. TM
NiQil 02-15-07, 12:40 AM	For those that may have missed it: Wizards.com, forums, and chat will experience downtime beginning Sunday, Feb. 18th, 12 am (3 am EDT/ 8 am GMT). Wizards.com will return to service at Sunday, Feb. 18th, 1 pm (4 pm EDT/ 9 pm GMT). Forums and chat will return to service Monday, Feb. 19th, 12 am (3 am EDT/ 8 am GMT). This service outage is due to hardware changes being made in our data center. Thank you for understanding. So we lose a whole day this pairings week of board time...and on a weekend day as well...so everyone will need to plan running their fights accordingly.
sonofzeal 02-15-07, 12:49 AM	So, I'm paired to fight in the arena, but there are only two of us and four start locations. Is the information on where we start given somewhere, or is that only known upon entering the arena?
Vathelokai 02-15-07, 12:53 AM	So, I'm paired to fight in the arena, but there are only two of us and four start locations. Is the information on where we start given somewhere, or is that only known upon entering the arena? Known upon entering; which is to say that you send in your tactics before you know your starting square or your initiative.
sonofzeal 02-15-07, 01:06 AM	Does my character know upon entering where he and the opponent are, and the relative initiative order? For example, can my tactics contain plans for if I win initiative vs if I lose it?
Vathelokai 02-15-07, 01:21 AM	Nope. You only know those things once you spot/hear the opponent. Instead of writing 'if I win/lose initiative' tactics, it's better to write 'if I see the opponent at start' or 'If I hear casting' or 'If I don't see or hear anything' types of tactics.
MindWandererB 02-15-07, 01:46 AM	Right--if you don't start with LOS, you don't even know whether you won or lost initiative.
Rauul 02-15-07, 07:26 AM	Got a Question for all you Number crunchers... I have an idea Playing around in my head.. Level 5 cleric buys a scroll of Create Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createUndead.htm) (cl 11) and buys a Light warhorse and kills it, preserves the corpse.. goes and makes a hiden shrine (1000gp cost 1 week to build?) to his god and cast desecrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/desecrate.htm), and then casts Create undead on the horse body... making a Ghoul Light Warhorse.. Where would I get stats and movement and all that for this undead abomination that the druids would surely hunt me down for... As a Light warhorse (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/horse.htm#horseLight) is CR 1, and a Ghoul (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghoul.htm) is CR 1.. hmmm Is it feasable under coco rules.. And would or should this be a Quest or MiniQuest.. and what would the Gp/credit cost be for the Scroll.. and yes i am insane enough to do something like this...
Macbrea 02-15-07, 07:37 AM	Cost of the scroll is 3300gp and some credits. Problem is in CoCo the 5th level character is limited to 1250gp of expendables. And therefore cannot own that scroll.
Abyssal Stalker 02-15-07, 08:02 AM	Got a Question for all you Number crunchers... I have an idea Playing around in my head.. Level 5 cleric buys a scroll of Create Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createUndead.htm) (cl 11) and buys a Light warhorse and kills it, preserves the corpse.. goes and makes a hiden shrine (1000gp cost 1 week to build?) to his god and cast desecrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/desecrate.htm), and then casts Create undead on the horse body... making a Ghoul Light Warhorse.. Where would I get stats and movement and all that for this undead abomination that the druids would surely hunt me down for... As a Light warhorse (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/horse.htm#horseLight) is CR 1, and a Ghoul (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghoul.htm) is CR 1.. hmmm Is it feasable under coco rules.. And would or should this be a Quest or MiniQuest.. and what would the Gp/credit cost be for the Scroll.. and yes i am insane enough to do something like this... Ghoul isn't a template, so it would become an ordinary ghoul that only looks like a horse, but is actually a medium creature that walks with two legs and kinda slowly... Undead templates are skeleton, zombie, vampire and lich.
Rauul 02-15-07, 08:07 AM	Cost of the scroll is 3300gp and some credits. Problem is in CoCo the 5th level character is limited to 1250gp of expendables. And therefore cannot own that scroll. Ok so i need to pay for Spell to be cast.. via NPC Spell caster.. So maybe a MiniQuest.. With me providing the 250 gp gem and the corpse... Cost would be. 10 gp x the Spell's level (5) x the Casterlevel (11)=550 gp and cost and 6 credits.. heck thats cheaper than me having to build the shrine and stuph.. :)
Hirumajoe 02-15-07, 08:12 AM	Ok so i need to pay for Spell to be cast.. via NPC Spell caster.. So maybe a MiniQuest.. With me providing the 250 gp gem and the corpse... Cost would be. 10 gp x the Spell's level (5) x the Casterlevel (11)=550 gp and cost and 6 credits.. heck thats cheaper than me having to build the shrine and stuph.. :) Except NPC spellcasting services have a caster limit of your ECL + 2. And it costs a credit per level above your ECL to boot. Otherwise, there would be alot of polymorph any object'd people running around. At ECL 3. I mean an 8th level spell by a 20th level caster (to avoid early dispells) only costs 1600 gold. A starting character could be running around as a Frost or Fire Giant...
Rauul 02-15-07, 08:15 AM	Ghoul isn't a template, so it would become an ordinary ghoul that only looks like a horse, but is actually a medium creature that walks with two legs and kinda slowly... Undead templates are skeleton, zombie, vampire and lich. Or it becomes an Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType) light warhorse (with undead traits). Keeping all it's predeath feats and tricks and still being intelligent enough to be tought others..
Abyssal Stalker 02-15-07, 08:22 AM	That would be a complete house rule. There isn't a general undead template. And you can change existing creatures only with templates (exceptions are familiars and animal companions which follow their own rules). There isn't any rules to create an undead horse. It must be either a zombie light warhorse or a skeleton light warhorse. Note that you can create these creatures at a lower caster level, which is a bonus for your idea. How are you planning to control the particular undead in question?
Rauul 02-15-07, 08:29 AM	Except NPC spellcasting services have a caster limit of your ECL + 2. And it costs a credit per level above your ECL to boot. Otherwise, there would be alot of polymorph any object'd people running around. At ECL 3. (I mean an 8th level spell by a 20th level caster (to avoid early dispells) only costs 1600 gold. A starting character could be running around as a Frost or Fire Giant... where is this rule found at.. cause honestly i just looked through the Blackmarket and the Getting started rules and see no ECL+2 cap on NPC spell casting services.. Infact the Example used in Spell casting services is MORE than a +2 example... NPC Spellcasting: You may pay credits to get the right to make use of NPC Spellcasting Services that exceeds your limit. Normally, you can only buy a cast spell of up to your ECL (see FAQ: NPC Services). You have to pay 1° per CL above your ECL. Now as a fairly new player.. i Love to see things like this written in Black and White.. cause honestly creating a Undead Light warhorse that isn't a Skeleton or a zombie, would be something a NE Cleric of Knowledge and magic would strive to do in the near future
Rauul 02-15-07, 08:39 AM	That would be a complete house rule. There isn't a general undead template. And you can change existing creatures only with templates (exceptions are familiars and animal companions which follow their own rules). There isn't any rules to create an undead horse. It must be either a zombie light warhorse or a skeleton light warhorse. Note that you can create these creatures at a lower caster level, which is a bonus for your idea. How are you planning to control the particular undead in question? Skeletons and Zombies are mine-less creatures... that loose all previous everything.. Were as a Ghoul Warhorse has a brain,(it would know not to run across the lava to attack the orc on the other side) would be under the clerics control.. the One ability that is Over looked (or over used) on Clerics.
hogarth 02-15-07, 08:49 AM	Cost of the scroll is 3300gp and some credits. Problem is in CoCo the 5th level character is limited to 1250gp of expendables. And therefore cannot own that scroll. Not to mention the fact that Create Undead doesn't give you any control over the creature created. I can see the epitaph now: "Here lies Rauul -- killed by his own non-Core ghoul-horse."
Abyssal Stalker 02-15-07, 08:55 AM	The problem is that I can't find any rules supporting the creature that you wish to create. Are you sure that it isn't material drawn from older editions? Create undead can create ghouls, ghasts, mohrgs and mummies. All os those are creatures of their own, no matter what was the original corpse. It is stupid, but that's just how the rules are written. If you could point me to a rule that allows creating that kind of undead, it would be appriciated, since I have my Undertaker who likes to toy with undead.
hogarth 02-15-07, 10:42 AM	New question: An Orb of Storms can be used to generate a storm of vengeance once per month. What does that equate to in terms of CoCo cycles? Once every cycle? Once every 4 cycles?
SauroGrenom 02-15-07, 11:04 AM	New question: An Orb of Storms can be used to generate a storm of vengeance once per month. What does that equate to in terms of CoCo cycles? Once every cycle? Once every 4 cycles?We've never dealt with that yet. I'd say once every 4 cycles, but that's hard to track. Other than that I'd just avoid such items all together. Too much confusion.
Macbrea 02-15-07, 11:23 AM	Well, technically since the fights are 3 fights per day each 3FC cycle being 1 per week.. That would make that item useable every 1 per 12 fights? :P In all honesty it's probably useable 1 per 3FC.
TheMagister 02-15-07, 11:56 AM	I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this, but: Dispel Magic can dispel ongoing Psionic Powers, right? Can it counterspell them? TM
hogarth 02-15-07, 12:01 PM	I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this, but: 1) Dispel Magic can dispel ongoing Psionic Powers, right? 2) Can it counterspell them? TM 1) Yes. 2) No. (There's no such thing as "countermanifesting".)
TheMagister 02-15-07, 12:03 PM	Thanks!
hogarth 02-15-07, 03:10 PM	Another question: Is it possible to make a skeleton/zombie out of an advanced creature (e.g. a 5 HD ankheg)? What would the credit cost be to find an advanced animal corpse?
TelinArtho 02-15-07, 03:13 PM	I believe the answer is yes - check the Advanced Nightmare skeleton that Harvey uses.
hogarth 02-15-07, 03:24 PM	I believe the answer is yes - check the Advanced Nightmare skeleton that Harvey uses. Ah. So the cost is 5 credits (the same as getting any advanced creature). I note that he didn't give it the elite array though, so maybe that's forbidden.
MindWandererB 02-15-07, 03:43 PM	I see there's a new Newspaper article up. @Abyssal: fun as always, but in this case slightly underresearched. An obscure reference to begin with, but hey, you work with what you know.
Horatius 02-15-07, 06:18 PM	Why does the pairing dealing use CET, while most ofthers use GMT? Wouldn't it be easier to use one timezone for all deadlines?
TelinArtho 02-15-07, 06:21 PM	Because Cat kept confusing the deadline with his own timeframe. So to make things easier for him, we made it more confusing to others :) In all seriousness, I just note the time to my timeframe and ignore all other markers. This way I can safely know when things are due without converting my time into another's.
TheMagister 02-15-07, 06:22 PM	Well peoples, I'm outta here. Offa work for 7 days, and I'll only be checking in every other day at the public library (I really have to get that p.o.s. computer of mine fixed...). Have FUN, because that's what DnD's all about! (The Hokey Pokey is a false usurper of DnD's fun prominence) TM
MindWandererB 02-15-07, 06:29 PM	Because Cat kept confusing the deadline with his own timeframe. So to make things easier for him, we made it more confusing to others :) In all seriousness, I just note the time to my timeframe and ignore all other markers. This way I can safely know when things are due without converting my time into another's. That and he was moderately horrified to learn that when Daylight Savings rolled around, the deadline moved from 9 pm to 10 pm his time (because GMT is "immune" to Daylight Savings). We made it CET so that he could go to sleep before 2 am.
Rauul 02-15-07, 06:32 PM	The problem is that I can't find any rules supporting the creature that you wish to create. Are you sure that it isn't material drawn from older editions? Create undead can create ghouls, ghasts, mohrgs and mummies. All os those are creatures of their own, no matter what was the original corpse. It is stupid, but that's just how the rules are written. If you could point me to a rule that allows creating that kind of undead, it would be appriciated, since I have my Undertaker who likes to toy with undead. Everything i have Quoted is out of the SRD, Undead traits is what ALL undead get.. So basicly the only way My charater could do this is Via leadership feat (since there is No handle undead skill)... the rebulk, command and Buff undead is a worthless part of the Cleric package in D&D is what your all telling me.. and then it would be a GENERIC run of the Mill Ghoul not the Large size Warhorse... How boreing can you get
MindWandererB 02-15-07, 06:40 PM	Not quite, Rauul. You could get an undead ally via the Rebuke/Command ability, but the creature you get has to be a legal, core one. (See Allies I in the rules.) You can't just invent a horse that happens to be undead. But here's an interesting tidbit: You don't have to arrange for its creation, any more than you have to breed your own griffon. You go on a quest (minimum EL equal to the CR of the creature you want, or to yours if you're mid-cycle), and the end of which you encounter the undead creature you want and take control of it. The downside would be that you still need a standard action to command it, so it's not much use as a mount. You'd probably be best off Animating the creature you want as a mount, and using your Rebuke option for other undead allies.
Erithmu 02-15-07, 07:00 PM	Still looking for a questlord for Loddick, to start next week.
Rauul 02-15-07, 09:46 PM	Not quite, Rauul. You could get an undead ally via the Rebuke/Command ability, but the creature you get has to be a legal, core one. (See Allies I in the rules.) You can't just invent a horse that happens to be undead. But here's an interesting tidbit: You don't have to arrange for its creation, any more than you have to breed your own griffon. You go on a quest (minimum EL equal to the CR of the creature you want, or to yours if you're mid-cycle), and the end of which you encounter the undead creature you want and take control of it. The downside would be that you still need a standard action to command it, so it's not much use as a mount. You'd probably be best off Animating the creature you want as a mount, and using your Rebuke option for other undead allies. So back to the idea of getting a level 2 Wizard, thats a vampire spawn as a cohort (leadership) at around level 10.. ok and till then making rauul an army of Undead skeletons/zombies with tower shields (full cover) to march in front of him.. If for nothing else than to slow down the movement of my opponent to get to me..
MindWandererB 02-16-07, 12:16 AM	and till then making rauul an army of Undead skeletons/zombies with tower shields (full cover) to march in front of him.. If for nothing else than to slow down the movement of my opponent to get to me..Let me just clarify this, since I'm not sure what you want to do here: a zombie standing in front of you, using a tower shield, does not grant you full cover. If you want to use a tower shield that way, you have to do it yourself.
Vathelokai 02-16-07, 12:39 AM	Appologizes folks, but I had to work a double today. Getting up in 6 hours to do another one. Ick. Anyway; quest will get moving on friday night.
Abyssal Stalker 02-16-07, 01:09 AM	Well, you can't blame the press if some drunken sailors give them wrong information, can you? :)
Macbrea 02-16-07, 09:08 AM	Let me just clarify this, since I'm not sure what you want to do here: a zombie standing in front of you, using a tower shield, does not grant you full cover. If you want to use a tower shield that way, you have to do it yourself. Actually, any creature standing between you an attacker gives cover. To quote the SRD on Cover: Soft Cover Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Hide check. So, technically. Those skeletons wielding Tower shields provide Total cover to themselves and their very nature provide +4 vs ranged attacks. If a line is drawn through their square.
Rauul 02-16-07, 09:50 AM	Actually, any creature standing between you an attacker gives cover. To quote the SRD on Cover: Soft Cover Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Hide check. So, technically. Those skeletons wielding Tower shields provide Total cover to themselves and their very nature provide +4 vs ranged attacks. If a line is drawn through their square. how about an Imp on my shoulder with a tower shield.. since we can share spell does that give the caster cover to?
Erithmu 02-16-07, 10:00 AM	Does anyone know where 1) Sauro's 'intro to flight' post is and 2) The final ruling on the Zero 'touch ground to turn bad maneuverability into better? (I fear I may have given Cat some bad info regarding what was decided by the elders.)
hogarth 02-16-07, 10:03 AM	how about an Imp on my shoulder with a tower shield.. since we can share spell does that give the caster cover to? :twitch: These rules interpretations are certainly...creative. One thing that would work would be to have a skeleton/imp buddy with a tower shield of Arrow Catching stay 5' in front of you. Then any ranged attacks will redirect to it rather than you. I thought about adding this to my cleric UnCon contest build, but I was a little short on money (and feats) so I decided against it.
Macbrea 02-16-07, 10:09 AM	Tower shields aren't spells. So, the imp is a rider and can do mounted combat actions. :P to quote, FAQ Can one use a tower shield while mounted? Nothing in the tower shield description implies that you can’t use it while mounted. If you claim cover from the shield, your mount gets no benefit.
Abyssal Stalker 02-16-07, 10:11 AM	How about an imp with a +15 ride check riding a wizard and using mounted combat to negate attacks...
hogarth 02-16-07, 10:17 AM	How about an imp with a +15 ride check riding a wizard and using mounted combat to negate attacks... As long as you follow all of the pertinent rules, it should be O.K.: TRAINING A WIZARD Although intelligent, a wizard requires training before it can bear a rider in combat. To be trained, a wizard must have a friendly attitude toward the trainer (this can be achieved through a successful Diplomacy check). Training a friendly wizard requires six weeks of work and a DC 25 Handle Humanoid check. Riding a wizard requires an exotic saddle. A wizard can fight while carrying a rider, but the rider cannot also attack unless he or she succeeds on a Ride check.
McJarvis 02-16-07, 10:19 AM	I'm begining to see issues with psicrystals that have mounted combat & psi-warriors with maxed out ride checks :-)
sonofzeal 02-16-07, 10:43 AM	I'm begining to see issues with psicrystals that have mounted combat & psi-warriors with maxed out ride checks :-) ...wow. If I was DMing, I think I'd give that a -20 "supporting your full weight on a sharp pointy thing with your crotch" circumstance penalty. If not more.
Hirumajoe 02-16-07, 10:47 AM	...wow. If I was DMing, I think I'd give that a -20 "supporting your full weight on a sharp pointy thing with your crotch" circumstance penalty. If not more. Umm... I think you're reading that the wrong way. The psicrystal has mounted combat and is sitting on the Psiwarrior's shoulder, hence riding it. Since the psicrystal has the psiwarrior's ranks in the ride skill, the psiwarrior would need to max it. Although, in the case of a Centaur Psiwarrior, I'd be hard pressed to argue against it. I mean, its the same as applying mounted combat to a pegasus. They're both vaguely horse shaped and intelligent... Edit: Actually, a Half Dragon Centaur Psiwarrior would be his own flying mount. Which would be kinda cool... So wait, I remember something similar being discussed around here, what happens to a flying Centaur who is diving with a lance using spirited charge? Is that a x3 multiplier, x4 or x6 (i.e. x2x3 =x6). Hmm... Half Dragon Centaur Psiwarrior 4 (ECL 13 admittedly) could have a Psionic Lion's Charge diving spirited charge two-handed lance attack... I'd love to see the damage off of that.
TelinArtho 02-16-07, 10:53 AM	Umm... I think you're reading that the wrong way. The psicrystal has mounted combat and is sitting on the Psiwarrior's shoulder, hence riding it. Since the psicrystal has the psiwarrior's ranks in the ride skill, the psiwarrior would need to max it. Although, in the case of a Centaur Psiwarrior, I'd be hard pressed to argue against it. I mean, its the same as applying mounted combat to a pegasus. They're both vaguely horse shaped and intelligent... Edit: Actually, a Half Dragon Centaur Psiwarrior would be his own flying mount. Which would be kinda cool... So wait, I remember something similar being discussed around here, what happens to a flying Centaur who is diving with a lance using spirited charge? Is that a x3 multiplier, x4 or x6 (i.e. x2x3 =x6) x4 - refer to the basics section of the SRD: MULTIPLYING Sometimes a rule makes you multiply a number or a die roll. As long as you’re applying a single multiplier, multiply the number normally. When two or more multipliers apply to any abstract value (such as a modifier or a die roll), however, combine them into a single multiple, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. Thus, a double (×2) and a double (×2) applied to the same number results in a triple (×3, because 2 + 1 = 3). When applying multipliers to real-world values (such as weight or distance), normal rules of math apply instead. A creature whose size doubles (thus multiplying its weight by 8) and then is turned to stone (which would multiply its weight by a factor of roughly 3) now weighs about 24 times normal, not 10 times normal. Similarly, a blinded creature attempting to negotiate difficult terrain would count each square as 4 squares (doubling the cost twice, for a total multiplier of ×4), rather than as 3 squares (adding 100% twice).
Hirumajoe 02-16-07, 10:58 AM	Ah, good point. Thanks Telin. Although are you saying that they do in fact stack? Hmm... I may need to acquire 30 credits...
sonofzeal 02-16-07, 10:58 AM	Umm... I think you're reading that the wrong way. The psicrystal has mounted combat and is sitting on the Psiwarrior's shoulder, hence riding it. Since the psicrystal has the psiwarrior's ranks in the ride skill, the psiwarrior would need to max it. I was working from the idea of a 9th lvl Psiwarrior trying to get an easy way to fly. I don't believe the psicrystal's Flight ability has a weight limit....
TelinArtho 02-16-07, 11:04 AM	Ah, good point. Thanks Telin. Although are you saying that they do in fact stack? Hmm... I may need to acquire 30 credits... Yes - in the rare cases where you can be your own mount (ie Zelekhut and Centaur) and have flight (Half-Dragon, Half-Celetial, Half-Fiend, fly spell) on yourself - yes, you can get x4 damage on a diving charge with a lance. The problem you will soon find is that a straight line charge - much less with the restrictions from diving - is nigh-impossible when the opponent doesn't want you to do it. Sir Valkin, who specializes in charges (and has since ECL3), has only had a handful of successful charges - and that's with a 90ft movement modifier. Worse than that - he had horrible luck with them through ECL6 (I think 2 out of the 4 or so missed on natural 1s...). Adding in the benefits of a turn in the charge (psionic charge or fleet of foot for instance) might increase the possibility of it. I am investigating that possibility with Jar-red - but he still needs another level to do it...
Hirumajoe 02-16-07, 11:22 AM	Lets see: 1st Run 3rd Fleet of Foot Psiwarrior 1 Mounted Combat 6th Ride by attack Psiwarrior 2 Spirited Charge +5 LA You could do it at ECL 11 at the earliest with the mentioned Centaur Half-Dragon Psiwarrior 2 abomination. He'd have a flying charge distance of 200ft with one 90 degree turn and a requirement to drop at least 10 feet and move 30 ft forward for the dive to kick in. You're probably looking at 72 minimum damage from just considering 34 strength and a two-handed hold on that lance. Still the character would literally be a one trick pony. Edit: I just realized what would make a charge build (using the actual character as the charger *or* a leadership ally like a Pegasus with Psionic warrior or similar levels). Hustle. I know you don't like Psionics, but it is one way to do it. Grab a free move action to setup the charge, and then do the actual charge with the rest of your full round action. A magic/psionic item of hustle 3/day mightwork, but it needs to be a free/swift action to activate (similar to boots of haste).
TelinArtho 02-16-07, 11:29 AM	And Sir Valkin's charge is at 3d8+12+15+2d6[+27] with a +17 to hit (+18 versus medium or smaller opponents, +23 versus medium or smaller evil opponents...). That's 59 damage minimum against an evil opponent (32 if its not evil). And Sir Valkin, thankfully, is not just a charging monster... With Jar-red and a fly potion next level, he could do a full diving pounce with a turn in it. Of course, he wouldn't bother with the fly potion - since I'm fairly happy with his jumping ability... unless of course the ceiling is out of his reach (only the case on three maps - the arena, the city and the plains). EDIT: Actually, the ruling is that the centaur qualifies for the feats under mounted combat without the mounted combat feat. So he could feasibly do it a level earlier... Or just replace the template with a fly potion...
Hirumajoe 02-16-07, 11:45 AM	And Sir Valkin's charge is at 3d8+12+15+2d6[+27] with a +17 to hit (+18 versus medium or smaller opponents, +23 versus medium or smaller evil opponents...). That's 59 damage minimum against an evil opponent (32 if its not evil). And Sir Valkin, thankfully, is not just a charging monster... EDIT: Actually, the ruling is that the centaur qualifies for the feats under mounted combat without the mounted combat feat. So he could feasibly do it a level earlier... Or just replace the template with a fly potion... Oh... I mean if you want the full damage, then its probably something like 8d6 (Large Lance) + 12 (+3 Enhanced Lance) + 72 (34 Strength) + 8 (Offensive Prescience) = 100 minimum damage against all targets. On the attack he'd have +7 BAB + 12 Str + 3 Enh +2 Charge -1 Size = +23 to hit. On all targets. Of course, this guy would only be a charging monster. And ECL 11, so Valkin would get another level to be properly compared. Although the fly potion (or even a permanent magic item of flight at higher levels) raises some interesting possibilities. Plus the extra free feat means you could actually branch out. And grab Psionic weapon or something. Suddenly at ECL 7 you can have the above charge setup. And at ECL 10 you get to add Hustle into the mix. Although he is losing out on some speed, natural armor, and +4 x 4 damage from the extra 8 strength.
hogarth 02-16-07, 11:49 AM	How about a charging diving centaur ghost? You wouldn't have to worry quite so much about obstacles. The level adjustment would be murder, though. ;)
Hirumajoe 02-16-07, 11:59 AM	How about a charging diving centaur ghost? You wouldn't have to worry quite so much about obstacles. The level adjustment would be murder, though. ;) Gah +7 LA... You could do it, and you wouldn't need the run and fleet of foot feats. But your fly speed would only be 30 feet. 40 if you grabbed Speed of thought with your first level of Psychic Warrior. Although any melee fighter with a ghost touch weapon, or anyone with a magic missile wand would make quick work of you. Since you'd only have something like 4d12 or 5d12 hit points...
MindWandererB 02-16-07, 01:59 PM	Does anyone know where 1) Sauro's 'intro to flight' post is and 2) The final ruling on the Zero 'touch ground to turn bad maneuverability into better? (I fear I may have given Cat some bad info regarding what was decided by the elders.)1) Oddly, no, I can't find it at the moment. I could have sworn there were some links to it lying around somewhere. 2) Actually, there never was one. I made a claim as to how it worked, and no one disputed it. However, I should mention that this was before the debate that Mitza prompted about whether you could switch movement modes mid-move, to which the answer was no, mainly because there isn't any rule mentioned about how to calculate that. I based my interpretation on this: "A creature with this ability can cease or resume flight as a free action." You could argue that a creature that ceases to fly is changing movement modes, even if they never take a step on the ground.
UserNamer 02-16-07, 02:12 PM	Hi, I have a question: Is it allowed for a rogue/bard, to use Use Magic Device(emulate a class feature) with a Druid's Vestment, to wild shape as like, say, a lvl 20 druid? or the Monk's Belt for 20th lvl monk AC and unarmed damage? Couse I was thinking of such a build
McJarvis 02-16-07, 02:16 PM	Hi, I have a question: Is it allowed for a rogue/bard, to use Use Magic Device(emulate a class feature) with a Druid's Vestment, to wild shape as like, say, a lvl 20 druid? or the Monk's Belt for 20th lvl monk AC and unarmed damage? Couse I was thinking of such a build I'd say UMD will let you use the vestment(emulate a class feature), and then the vestment will give you 1 extra use of wildshape(but your effective druid level is 0 in all reality, so you don't have any wildshape options)
Macbrea 02-16-07, 02:16 PM	Emulate a Class Feature Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above). So, in this particular case, The vestment's of the druid wouldn't be very useful. It gives you an additional use of an ability you don't have.
UserNamer 02-16-07, 02:23 PM	I'd say UMD will let you use the vestment(emulate a class feature), and then the vestment will give you 1 extra use of wildshape(but your effective druid level is 0 in all reality, so you don't have any wildshape options) Indeed, in reality its 0, but the +1 bonus added makes it real levels, I think.
UserNamer 02-16-07, 02:24 PM	Emulate a Class Feature Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above). So, in this particular case, The vestment's of the druid wouldn't be very useful. It gives you an additional use of an ability you don't have. I see. So it would be the same for monk's belt right?
TelinArtho 02-16-07, 02:29 PM	Would this be allowed; [Amulet of Ray of Enfeeblement] At, will the user can cast ray of enfeeblement caster lvl(1) * spell lvl(1) * 1800 = 1800gp crafted = 1800/2 = 900 or this: [Amulet of Magic Missle] At, will the user can cast magic missle caster lvl(1) * spell lvl(1) * 1800 = 1800gp crafted = 1800/2 = 900 UserNamer - best to ask this question in the tavern first. If it were me, yes - you could create one of these items for a nice sum of 15 credits. The Amulet is a "poor" choice as that is usually reserved for "Protection, discernment" - and as such would incur a 1.5x multiplier to the cost. Gauntlets would probably be more in line with the item's properties. I honestly don't know what wizard would craft one for himself though - 900gp for a CL1 Magic Missile isn't terribly useful even if it doesn't have a limit on charges. Ray of Enfeeblement is arguably more useful, but you could just as well get away with something that's only 3/day in that case. For requirements to craft the item - I would suggest including Craft Wand in it - since that would be more in line with the wand's role. [EDIT] Also - I thought I remember a similar item proposed once. Here it is. Obviously it is different in some ways - but is probably still close enough that Cat will not likely approve it.
McJarvis 02-16-07, 02:41 PM	Indeed, in reality its 0, but the +1 bonus added makes it real levels, I think. +1 to wildshape per day just means you can wildshape 1 more time per day. It doesn't give you levels in druid, though.(so you will be wildshaping one more time per day as a level 0 druid would-> or rather, not at all) I see. So it would be the same for monk's belt right? Monks belts don't require UMD to use. They just work for everybody.
Macbrea 02-16-07, 03:24 PM	UserNamer - best to ask this question in the tavern first. If it were me, yes - you could create one of these items for a nice sum of 15 credits. The Amulet is a "poor" choice as that is usually reserved for "Protection, discernment" - and as such would incur a 1.5x multiplier to the cost. Gauntlets would probably be more in line with the item's properties. . Actually, looking at the body slot affinity: Headband, helmet = Mental improvement, ranged attacks Seem the slots you want to use. So, checking for a similar majic item in those slots we find: On command, this simple golden headband projects a blast of searing light (3d8 points of damage) once per day. Faint evocation; CL 6th; Craft Wondrous Item, searing light; Price 6,480 gp. (6th level x 3 Spell level x 1800gp)/(5/1) = 6480gp On command, this elaborate golden headband projects a blast of searing light (5d8 maximized for 40 points of damage) once per day. Strong evocation; CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, Maximize Spell, searing light; Price 23,760 gp. (11th level x 6 spell level x 1800gp)/(5/1) = 23,760gp Odd... wonder why.. Edit: ah.. first level a wizard can cast 6th level spells is 11th.
hogarth 02-16-07, 03:29 PM	[EDIT] Also - I thought I remember a similar item proposed once. Here it is. Obviously it is different in some ways - but is probably still close enough that Cat will not likely approve it. Hmm? Vigor at will is very different than Magic Missile at will. I suspect that Caterane would allow an a command word activated item with Magic Missile or Ray of Enfeeblement. At least he allowed Reginald Molehusband's rings of Acid Orb and Silent Image (it's not quite the same, since they both have charges).
TelinArtho 02-16-07, 03:50 PM	The existence of charges makes it a VERY different thing - hence why they were approved. In the case of UserNamer - if the character in question has the craft feat - he could make the item and use it until it is no longer useful, and sell it with no loss (at least until we implement rules to curb that). That said - I still feel that crafting an item like that should require craft wand at the least.
hogarth 02-16-07, 04:07 PM	The existence of charges makes it a VERY different thing - hence why they were approved. In the case of UserNamer - if the character in question has the craft feat - he could make the item and use it until it is no longer useful, and sell it with no loss (at least until we implement rules to curb that). That said - I still feel that crafting an item like that should require craft wand at the least. I really don't think it's any different than a hat of disguise, a ring of animal friendship, a ring of blinking, or any other "at will" item. (I'd probably throw the bag of tricks in that category, too.) If you don't like selling items back with no loss, that's a separate matter, IMO.
UserNamer 02-16-07, 04:37 PM	I was actually thinking of taking air ele's, giving em these sort of items.
TelinArtho 02-16-07, 04:49 PM	I really don't think it's any different than a hat of disguise, a ring of animal friendship, a ring of blinking, or any other "at will" item. (I'd probably throw the bag of tricks in that category, too.) If you don't like selling items back with no loss, that's a separate matter, IMO. My purpose in proposing more stringent guidelines on the custom items is to make them a little more difficult to take advantage of. For an unlimited charged item - I think it should require a little bit of discretion - and that's why I speak up. If I didn't we could have a repeat of Iced's manipulation where he crafted an Armory of Armor Forging to craft his Adamantium Full Plate, sell back the armory for no loss. And all of this without even the skill points to craft armor to begin with. The reason why I would suggest including Craft Wand in the requirements is because the item is essentially a wand - granted with no limit on the number of uses. This serves two purposes: a) it cuts down on seeing the item before ECL5 b) it makes creating the item more of an investment than just a single feat. For what its worth - for Reginald's items, I would also include Craft Wand with them for what their effect is if the effect is offensive. Note that this sort of thing is not all that uncommon. Craft wondrous item is often paired up with Craft Magic Arms and Armor; Craft Magic Arms and Armor is sometimes paired up with Craft Rod, etc.
TelinArtho 02-16-07, 04:50 PM	I was actually thinking of taking air ele's, giving em these sort of items. In that case - you might want to iron out what "body slots" an air elemental has to start with... (and if its anything more than "none" - you might have an argument to pursue...)
sonofzeal 02-16-07, 04:51 PM	Monks belts don't require UMD to use. They just work for everybody. Just to clarify, since I've used it on characters before to mixed DM reaction - does the Monk's Belt only grant you the +1 AC that monks get at lvl5, or does it also grant you the wis-to-AC benifit too?
hogarth 02-16-07, 04:54 PM	In that case - you might want to iron out what "body slots" an air elemental has to start with... (and if its anything more than "none" - you might have an argument to pursue...) I think I saw that one of Caterane's air elementals was equipped with a sling. That made me raise an eyebrow...
MindWandererB 02-16-07, 05:05 PM	Just to clarify, since I've used it on characters before to mixed DM reaction - does the Monk's Belt only grant you the +1 AC that monks get at lvl5, or does it also grant you the wis-to-AC benifit too?The Sage recently ruled that it grants the Wisdom bonus as well. Regarding Craft Wand: I don't really see Craft Wand being used for an uncharged item. It's most similar to the Circlet of Blasting, which just requires CWI.
TelinArtho 02-16-07, 05:25 PM	I think I saw that one of Caterane's air elementals was equipped with a sling. That made me raise an eyebrow... Well, given the ruling we have about dragon's claws not being effective for wielding weapons, I think I would be fine with forbidding an air elemental as well. For the tanglefoot bag and such, I have no problem - since it is just thrown.
TelinArtho 02-16-07, 05:26 PM	The Sage recently ruled that it grants the Wisdom bonus as well. Regarding Craft Wand: I don't really see Craft Wand being used for an uncharged item. It's most similar to the Circlet of Blasting, which just requires CWI. Yeah - you know the more I talk about it - the less conviction I have... so I guess its fine as is (assuming the body slot is changed from amulet (unless UserNamer wants it to cost more)). And if he does intend on having Air Elementals equipped with them that would definitely require refining body slots, which is a sketchy issue most of us have dodged about... (for good reason I might add...).
Zevox 02-16-07, 05:41 PM	Questord Wanted Anixx the Warbringer (Iced) and Jonathan Raven (Abyssal) are going on a mission for the EHTC to improve out relations with the para-military group, the Shadow Star Assassins. They have need of a questlord for this, however. Its an EL 10 mission, set to start next week. Theres a nice amount of information on the group in the Guildhall, and I can give some more to anyone interested if you wish. If anyone is interested in running this, please contact me either here, in the EHTC thread, or via PM. Thank you. Zevox
Rauul 02-16-07, 06:47 PM	is there a reason the Gith listed as Player races are the ones in the psi book, but the ones in the MM (we do alow half giants and the like from the psi book)
McJarvis 02-16-07, 07:03 PM	is there a reason the Gith listed as Player races are the ones in the psi book, but the ones in the MM (we do alow half giants and the like from the psi book) I think the answer to what you really want to know is... Yes. The Gith races in the MM are playable in CoCo.
MindWandererB 02-16-07, 07:08 PM	I think the answer to what you really want to know is... Yes. The Gith races in the MM are playable in CoCo. To clarify: the ones in the XPH are not available because they're not in the SRD, and the XPH is not a Core rulebook in and of itself. The MM is, however, so those versions are allowed.
Hirumajoe 02-16-07, 07:10 PM	Can someone tell me if the following is a prison offense? The Harvester doesn't list height or weight. My bad its in the middle of the sheet as opposed to the top. However, he is listed as 236 lbs. I also note the following: He carries 184 lbs worth of equipment. Knellstriker can carry 0-300 lbs light, 301-600 lbs medium, 601-900 lbs heavy. No where does he indicate that Knellstriker is in the medium encumbrance category. And should thus only have a 60' speed. Or do pitlords know this already and run it as such?
Rauul 02-16-07, 07:10 PM	I think the answer to what you really want to know is... Yes. The Gith races in the MM are playable in CoCo. the MM Gith aren't psionic.. and the ones in the expanded psi book are.. IE the MM ones done'f get PP's to start so they can be things like psi warriors or psions.. without using a feat to get it.. hence why i am asking why we don't use the psi ones (or even pay an extra 5 credits to use the psi form)
Rauul 02-16-07, 07:12 PM	To clarify: the ones in the XPH are not available because they're not in the SRD, and the XPH is not a Core rulebook in and of itself. The MM is, however, so those versions are allowed. Acually the MM version isn't in the SRD due to copyright.. But everything except gith races from the Book is used... Seems wierd to me...
MindWandererB 02-16-07, 07:26 PM	Acually the MM version isn't in the SRD due to copyright.. But everything except gith races from the Book is used... Seems wierd to me...Everything in the MM, PHB, and DMG is used here (e.g. the Red Wizard), as well as anything in the SRD. Anything not in one of those sources is not allowed. It's that simple.
Zevox 02-16-07, 07:42 PM	the MM Gith aren't psionic.. and the ones in the expanded psi book are.. IE the MM ones done'f get PP's to start so they can be things like psi warriors or psions.. without using a feat to get it.. You don't need to already have power points to take levels in a psionic class - an MM Gith can take a level of psychic warrior, psion, wilder, or whatever anytime, just like a Human, Elf, Goblin, or any other race can. You won't be able to take psionic feats without either a level in one of those classes or the feat Wild Talent, thats true, but the classes are wide open. Edit: Okay, apparently thats not true. Didn't realize SLAs that are called "psionics" counted for the psionic subtype. Zevox
McJarvis 02-16-07, 07:46 PM	Note that the Gith in the Monster Manual ARE psionic, because they meet one of the prerequisites to be defined as such. A creature meeting any one of the following criteria has the psionic subtype: Creatures with a power point reserve, including characters who have levels in a character class that grants them a power point reserve or creatures who have the Wild Talent feat. Creatures with psi-like abilities, including characters who have racial psi-like abilities. Creatures that have spell-like abilities described as “psionics.”
sonofzeal 02-16-07, 11:25 PM	Few random questions that may come up for future characters of mine... 1) Regardless of handle animal score, you can't start with even a CR 1 creature raised from birth, right? It has to be bought? 2) (edit - I was going to ask about Psicrystal HP, but I found it.) 3) Bonus Power Points for ability scores... Let's say I'm a really messed up character, Psion 2 / Wilder 2 / Monk 4, 18 int and 14 cha. Would I get 16 pp (18 int, lvl 8), 8 pp (18 int, 4 lvls in manifesting classes), or 6 (14 Cha, 2 Wilder + 18 Int, 2 Psion)? I've done it the first way before, so as not to penalize multiclassing so badly, but I have a funny feeling the 3rd way is the correct one.
Zevox 02-16-07, 11:39 PM	1) Regardless of handle animal score, you can't start with even a CR 1 creature raised from birth, right? It has to be bought? Right - with Handle Animal allies, you absolutely have to quest or miniquest for them, which obviously can't be done before you start your CoCo career. Though it is allowed to buy an egg of creatures whose eggs are given a gp value in the rules (a Pegasus for example) and raise that from birth, and thats typically cheaper than buying an adult animal. 3) Bonus Power Points for ability scores... Let's say I'm a really messed up character, Psion 2 / Wilder 2 / Monk 4, 18 int and 14 cha. Would I get 16 pp (18 int, lvl 8), 8 pp (18 int, 4 lvls in manifesting classes), or 6 (14 Cha, 2 Wilder + 18 Int, 2 Psion)? I've done it the first way before, so as not to penalize multiclassing so badly, but I have a funny feeling the 3rd way is the correct one. The 3rd way is correct. The classes are separate, and your bonus power points depend on your level in those individual classes, not on your overall level. Just like a wizard/cleric wouldn't gain bonus wizard spells for his levels in cleric, for example, but would track those separately. Zevox
MindWandererB 02-16-07, 11:43 PM	Few random questions that may come up for future characters of mine... 1) Regardless of handle animal score, you can't start with even a CR 1 creature raised from birth, right? It has to be bought? 2) (edit - I was going to ask about Psicrystal HP, but I found it.) 3) Bonus Power Points for ability scores... Let's say I'm a really messed up character, Psion 2 / Wilder 2 / Monk 4, 18 int and 14 cha. Would I get 16 pp (18 int, lvl 8), 8 pp (18 int, 4 lvls in manifesting classes), or 6 (14 Cha, 2 Wilder + 18 Int, 2 Psion)? I've done it the first way before, so as not to penalize multiclassing so badly, but I have a funny feeling the 3rd way is the correct one.1) Correct. Allies must be class features, or bought, or quested for. 3) It's the third option, as you suspect. Note that psionic PrCs work a little differently.
sonofzeal 02-17-07, 12:06 AM	1) Correct. Allies must be class features, or bought, or quested for. 3) It's the third option, as you suspect. Note that psionic PrCs work a little differently. By "differently", you mean that the ones with + manifester level (like psion -> slayer) stack, and the ones with their own progression (like Psiwarrior -> War Mind) don't, right? Just making sure.
MindWandererB 02-17-07, 12:47 AM	By "differently", you mean that the ones with + manifester level (like psion -> slayer) stack, and the ones with their own progression (like Psiwarrior -> War Mind) don't, right? Just making sure. Ones with +manifester level add to the original level, but War Mind and Psionic Fist do not gain bonus PP from a high stat at all, unless that is their highest manifesting level (in which case the next-highest doesn't count).
Abyssal Stalker 02-17-07, 03:26 AM	Everything in the MM, PHB, and DMG is used here (e.g. the Red Wizard), as well as anything in the SRD. Anything not in one of those sources is not allowed. It's that simple. Except that not all parts of UA material are allowed.
MindWandererB 02-17-07, 04:29 AM	Except that not all parts of UA material are allowed. Correction: Except that some parts of UA material are also allowed, with credits. (UA is open source, but not part of the SRD.)
Hirumajoe 02-17-07, 07:19 AM	Do animated skeletons and zombies as class allies get full hp for the first die (12) or average (6.5). Looking at the SRD skeleton entry it looks like it should be average. Or is there a rule in the allies section I'm missing?
hogarth 02-17-07, 08:52 AM	Do animated skeletons and zombies as class allies get full hp for the first die (12) or average (6.5). Looking at the SRD skeleton entry it looks like it should be average. Or is there a rule in the allies section I'm missing? I have already reported this as a violation for Knellstriker in the Prison of Gladius (if that's what you're referring to).
McJarvis 02-17-07, 09:11 AM	You know people like you when they can't leave your characters alone ;)
Hirumajoe 02-17-07, 09:23 AM	You know people like you when they can't leave your characters alone ;) True. Well it started out with Cat pointing out he had to carry his Nightmare out at one point (in the court thread), which I found to be an amsuing image. So I was curious how much Knellstriker weighed. So while looking for Knellstrikers weight, I noticed he was 7HD with a 0.5, so I was thinking it was wrong (and if you just add up the numbers listed next to his hp, it is wrong). Then I noticed his encumbrance brackets and though to myself, don't Half-Giant weigh like 300-400 lbs... So once I started looking at it, I wanted to make sure I got my facts straight. Personally, I appreciate it when people report my characters for violations. I'd much rather know earlier than later when the pitlord finds the problem half way through the match and I can't exactly change my tactics.
McJarvis 02-17-07, 09:35 AM	Apparently I'm out of it and can't find the council thread, so I'm just going to post this idea here. Can we institute the idea of a "gimme"? Basically, if you will level up on your next fight win or lose(without free activities or automatic activities' aid), you can spend a week out(during which you can't use free activities or any sort of activity) to gain exactly the xp/gp required to level up. This could only be used if you were in-between cycles & wouldn't count in the 3FC Granted you could always quest for it, but ECL 3/4's don't have that option right now...and this would require fewer quest lords(or just allow people to do it if they don't want to bother with a quest lord)
hogarth 02-17-07, 09:38 AM	Apparently I'm out of it and can't find the council thread, so I'm just going to post this idea here. Can we institute the idea of a "gimme"? Basically, if you will level up on your next fight win or lose(without free activities or automatic activities' aid), you can spend a week out(during which you can't use free activities or any sort of activity) to gain exactly the xp/gp required to level up. This could only be used if you were in-between cycles & wouldn't count in the 3FC Granted you could always quest for it, but ECL 3/4's don't have that option right now...and this would require fewer quest lords(or just allow people to do it if they don't want to bother with a quest lord) ECL 3/4 can still do a guild quest, can't they?
McJarvis 02-17-07, 09:40 AM	ECL 3/4 can still do a guild quest, can't they? I don't like using guild quests just to do something I can't do otherwise. Makes me feel dirty inside...and requires that I talk to people.(trust me-> I was tempted to just throw Artificer into the Loyalists & have him do some sort of mission...but that would be totally metagame...) But in answer to your question: yes...I think they can.
Hirumajoe 02-17-07, 09:41 AM	ECL 3/4 can still do a guild quest, can't they? Actually ECL 3 and 4s don't need quests to join a guild. So they'd have to be *in* a guild and sent on a mission by the guildmaster for that, no? Edit:Sigh, too slow. Again. Actually, while we're making suggestions, has anyone ever brought up the idea of Gladiators stuck in a held over battle both receiving loser rewards for that week they missed? As an alternative option to getting a free full activity? For characters who don't need to craft anything (or are currently out of money) its kinda useless.
Erithmu 02-17-07, 11:35 AM	There is no mechanical benefit for an ECL 3 to do a MQ between cycles to level up. The XP to GP ratio is the same at ECL 3 as it is 4. Most people don't get a new level of spells (unless multiclassing) And those that are multi-classing won't really have crafting feats since they won't be able to take it at 4th. I'm curious as to why you would want to level up to 4th with this MQ? I can understand it for some of the higher levels, but not at 4th.
McJarvis 02-17-07, 01:11 PM	There is no mechanical benefit for an ECL 3 to do a MQ between cycles to level up. The XP to GP ratio is the same at ECL 3 as it is 4. Most people don't get a new level of spells (unless multiclassing) And those that are multi-classing won't really have crafting feats since they won't be able to take it at 4th. I'm curious as to why you would want to level up to 4th with this MQ? I can understand it for some of the higher levels, but not at 4th. Mostly for expendable cap purposes. Not that I plan on spending 800 gp every 3FC at 4th level, but the extra options are nice...especially since my opponents get them too, supposedly. Also if you want to craft a new item with CWI you can gain the spells necessary(as a wizard) when you gain the level, instead of either buying them now or waiting until the end of your next 3FC to do so.
UserNamer 02-17-07, 01:48 PM	Is it possible to deliver touch spells/powers through a grapple attempt? If so how does it work? And is it possible to do this with multiple powers/spells in 1 hit?
McJarvis 02-17-07, 02:08 PM	Is it possible to deliver touch spells/powers through a grapple attempt? If so how does it work? And is it possible to do this with multiple powers/spells in 1 hit? You have to hold the charge to do this. For example: Round 1: Gladiator A casts shocking grasp and elects to not deliver it in the round s/he casts it. Round 2: Gladiator A attempts to grapple gladiator B. Upon making a successful touch attack to start the grapple rolls, the shocking grasp goes off.
UserNamer 02-17-07, 02:11 PM	You have to hold the charge to do this. For example: Round 1: Gladiator A casts shocking grasp and elects to not deliver it in the round s/he casts it. Round 2: Gladiator A attempts to grapple gladiator B. Upon making a successful touch attack to start the grapple rolls, the shocking grasp goes off. is it possible to extend it more than 1 round? is it possible to use it in combination with a power?
McJarvis 02-17-07, 02:16 PM	is it possible to extend it more than 1 round? is it possible to use it in combination with a power? The normal rules for holding a charge on a touch spell apply.(in the magic section of the PhB, I believe...)
UserNamer 02-17-07, 02:27 PM	thank you for your answers McJarvis
hogarth 02-17-07, 03:23 PM	I'm curious as to why you would want to level up to 4th with this MQ? I can understand it for some of the higher levels, but not at 4th. Like McJarvis said, it's mostly for the ability to buy expendables with a higher cap. If you level up on your first fight of the cycle, you may be stuck fighting gladiators with almost twice as many expendables for the next two fights. Also, psions also get 2 more powers known, druids can switch to a better (e.g. dire bat) animal companion, wilders and sorcerers get 2nd level powers/spells, rangers get an animal companion,
jjones 02-17-07, 03:51 PM	@ALL: Safe to say i'm screwed right? A pitlord that only gives str dmg to a two-handed weapon and refusing to fix it cuz he's tired, and basically tells me to go beat it. So i'm screwed right? Doesn't anyone on this board have any kind of sense of justice of what is right or wrong? Everyone just standing around doing absolutely nothing while the very core rules of the game are being pushed aside in favour of a more senior gladiator? And the boards GM (Caterane) refuses to also get involved...why? Cuz it doesn't involve his character...wow...nice. That's a good support system u guys have built up here....screw the new guy, if it doesn't affect my character, i just don't care attitude...awesome. JJ
Tellish_of_Ket 02-17-07, 03:58 PM	Stopping in for a quick peek. Nope, not coming back. Nice to see a lot of the same old faces. How are things? I can honestly say that things have changed. Lots of new rules and additions to add flavor. I have been tempted many times to return, but alas, married life is still VERY high on my priority list. Plus my wife and I moved to a new city on the west coast and are doing very well. Tellish
Vathelokai 02-17-07, 04:02 PM	@ALL: Safe to say i'm screwed right? A pitlord that only gives str dmg to a two-handed weapon and refusing to fix it cuz he's tired, and basically tells me to go beat it. So i'm screwed right? Doesn't anyone on this board have any kind of sense of justice of what is right or wrong? Everyone just standing around doing absolutely nothing while the very core rules of the game are being pushed aside in favour of a more senior gladiator? And the boards GM (Caterane) refuses to also get involved...why? Cuz it doesn't involve his character...wow...nice. That's a good support system u guys have built up here....screw the new guy, if it doesn't affect my character, i just don't care attitude...awesome. JJ Yeah. THat's crap. and it's not the first time it's happened, which is sad. There's still some time before the next pairings, so there's still a chance. If I still have time after running my fight I'll take a look.
SauroGrenom 02-17-07, 04:04 PM	JJ, In order for you and everyone in the board to continue having fun, it's absolutely necessary to keep the tone non-accusational. You are not the first person to every have this problem. It comes up on a rather frequent basis that a fight includes some kind of error, and the pitlord cannot or will not fix the error. In such cases, we have the fight held over. Send a PM to Pitlords with a link to the fight, copies of the PM's where the pitlord says they cannot fix it, and request the fight be held over. You get a rerun next week, and I think the pitlord doesn't get a credit (not sure on that). This kind of thing happens, and it sucks when the pitlord won't fix the error. But, we are a volunteer community. So the expectation and desire for professionalism can only go so far. Those of us who have been around for a while take everything with a grain of salt. That attitude really helps one keep a level head when something crappy happens. Cheers, Sauro
NiQil 02-17-07, 04:07 PM	@ALL: Safe to say i'm screwed right? A pitlord that only gives str dmg to a two-handed weapon and refusing to fix it cuz he's tired, and basically tells me to go beat it. So i'm screwed right? Doesn't anyone on this board have any kind of sense of justice of what is right or wrong? Everyone just standing around doing absolutely nothing while the very core rules of the game are being pushed aside in favour of a more senior gladiator? And the boards GM (Caterane) refuses to also get involved...why? Cuz it doesn't involve his character...wow...nice. That's a good support system u guys have built up here....screw the new guy, if it doesn't affect my character, i just don't care attitude...awesome. JJ Yanno...I'm not honestly certain what you are referring to here. If you are still talking about our fight, I already conceded that the fight should stand as it was. Have their been changes made to it? Cause I've already washed my hands of the whole issue. It's not worth getting so worked up over...at least not to me.
Tellish_of_Ket 02-17-07, 04:22 PM	JJ, In order for you and everyone in the board to continue having fun, it's absolutely necessary to keep the tone non-accusational. You are not the first person to every have this problem. It comes up on a rather frequent basis that a fight includes some kind of error, and the pitlord cannot or will not fix the error. In such cases, we have the fight held over. Send a PM to Pitlords with a link to the fight, copies of the PM's where the pitlord says they cannot fix it, and request the fight be held over. You get a rerun next week, and I think the pitlord doesn't get a credit (not sure on that). This kind of thing happens, and it sucks when the pitlord won't fix the error. But, we are a volunteer community. So the expectation and desire for professionalism can only go so far. Those of us who have been around for a while take everything with a grain of salt. That attitude really helps one keep a level head when something crappy happens. Cheers, Sauro Argh...i didn't want to post in reply to this because i have been gone for so long, but i will reverberate what my good friend SG has said. It is more classy (unless you have a character named harvester, :P ) to point them out objectively and if it stands, then accept your loss gracefully (unless you have a character named harvester, :P ). [just teaing....a bit] Seriously though, you wouldn't have lasted 2 weeks in the days of yore when we weren't even allowed to fix errors. And there were no dice-rollers, and if a particular GM (we called them all GM's at the time), didn't like you, you got critted in the first round and died, or his friend ran the fight, made you use up all your resources in a losing cause. LOL LOL Anyhow, enough reminiscing. Guy, SG said it best...there are polite and proffessional ways to handle this, please excercise caution. Tellish
Caterane 02-17-07, 04:57 PM	@ALL: Safe to say i'm screwed right? A pitlord that only gives str dmg to a two-handed weapon and refusing to fix it cuz he's tired, and basically tells me to go beat it. So i'm screwed right? Doesn't anyone on this board have any kind of sense of justice of what is right or wrong? Everyone just standing around doing absolutely nothing while the very core rules of the game are being pushed aside in favour of a more senior gladiator? And the boards GM (Caterane) refuses to also get involved...why? Cuz it doesn't involve his character...wow...nice. That's a good support system u guys have built up here....screw the new guy, if it doesn't affect my character, i just don't care attitude...awesome. JJ After accusations in the FotW, Courtroom, Tavern and two very insulting PMs I congratulate you to be the first person who is officially kicked out of CoCo by violating the code of conduct.
Zevox 02-17-07, 05:32 PM	Imprint stone is not psionic. Not a violation. (Taken out of prison.) Psionic Item Creation is still a type of psionic feat, no? Zevox
Tellish_of_Ket 02-17-07, 05:35 PM	IF...and i do mean a strong IF, i bring a character out of retirement that had crafted a boat-load of stuff, do i get that exp back? Tellish
NiQil 02-17-07, 05:37 PM	(Taken out of prison.) Psionic Item Creation is still a type of psionic feat, no? Zevox A strict reading of the RAW would say no...only those with the psionic or metapsionic descriptors would qualify as psionic feats and be eligible for the Psionic Body feat bonus to HP. This is due primarily to the fact that there is no such thing as a psionic item creation feat....the descriptor does not exist. All of the feats you are referring to carry the item creation descriptor only.
NiQil 02-17-07, 05:38 PM	IF...and i do mean a strong IF, i bring a character out of retirement that had crafted a boat-load of stuff, do i get that exp back? Tellish No...when we abolished the xp spending on crafting, it was determined at that time that anything spent up to that point was simply lost...it was not applied retroactively.
Zevox 02-17-07, 05:41 PM	A strict reading of the RAW would say no...only those with the psionic or metapsionic descriptors would qualify as psionic feats and be eligible for the Psionic Body feat bonus to HP. *checks SRD with reply in mind* Oh, I think I see where my problem is. I thought that the psionic item creation feats actually had a "Psionic" in front of "Item Creation" in their tags (probably due to the way the psion bonus feats are phrased). The fact that they don't explains my confusion there. Will remove that violation then. Zevox
Maraxus 02-17-07, 06:49 PM	1. Damn, material Prices of armor are multiplied for unusual sizes, too??? *checks everything* Graah, yes, the FAQ sais so. A strict reading of the rules indicates... I wish I'd knew, what was strictly read there, nothing in the rules says, that the material cost is multiplied. Hm, I expect I have the options to either pay the rest, or sell it? In case I could and would sell it, would I get half or full gold (I have paid)? 2. Zassl has a scroll of Alter self for a long time now. When I woke him up with the new rules I had to specify this scroll as something and choosed Lizardman (because Trogs are ugly and stink). Zassl does not have any knowledge of those Lizardmen (well, he lifed next door with them for years, but technically he has no knowledge of anything) - but likely the scriber of the scroll had. (?) Can't I use the scroll nevertheless? 3: Unrelated, Durin is looking for a miniquest in his next fight, finding someone to instruct him in discipline and the ways of a warmind. Anyone wants to questlord it?
Zevox 02-17-07, 09:12 PM	2. Zassl has a scroll of Alter self for a long time now. When I woke him up with the new rules I had to specify this scroll as something and choosed Lizardman (because Trogs are ugly and stink). Zassl does not have any knowledge of those Lizardmen (well, he lifed next door with them for years, but technically he has no knowledge of anything) - but likely the scriber of the scroll had. (?) Can't I use the scroll nevertheless? Nope - you need to have the appropriate knowledge skill with a total mod of 2x the HD of the form you want to take to use any shape-shifting magic. No exceptions (unless you consider the Druid's Wild Shape special ability magic). It doesn't matter who scribed it, as the rules are in place as a check on that sort of magic due to how powerful it is. Zevox
hogarth 02-17-07, 09:37 PM	3: Unrelated, Durin is looking for a miniquest in his next fight, finding someone to instruct him in discipline and the ways of a warmind. Anyone wants to questlord it? Don't forget to change Durin's alignment (since war minds cannot be chaotic).
sonofzeal 02-17-07, 10:14 PM	Are alignment changes free? If, say, I wanted to have one level in monk and then go chaotic and advance as Barbarian, is that legit or is there some associated credit cost/quest? Also, what is the credit cost to use a non-core weapon, say a broadblade shortsword, or elven thinblade?
NiQil 02-17-07, 10:34 PM	Alignment changes done at character creation are free. Blizzard and Wildfire are examples of this. They each took 2 levels of monk, being lawful neutral, and then because chaotic neutral to take 2 levels of barbarian, losing the relevant monk abilities (flurry, etc) in the process. Alignment changes after the character has been in play are entirely dependant on the situation. A new character may get it for free...a character can quest to have an alignment change done (such as a paladin who needs to become evil to become a blackguard), or you can pay credits to alter your alignment. I believe the credit cost is 5 credits per step away from your original alignment. So going from Chaotic Neutral to Chaotic evil would be 5 credits, but going from True Neutral to Chaotic Evil would be 10 credits. Non-core material is not allowed.
sonofzeal 02-17-07, 10:56 PM	Alignment changes done at character creation are free. Blizzard and Wildfire are examples of this. They each took 2 levels of monk, being lawful neutral, and then because chaotic neutral to take 2 levels of barbarian, losing the relevant monk abilities (flurry, etc) in the process. SRD says nothing about ex-monks losing any monk powers. Houserule?
Zevox 02-17-07, 10:57 PM	Alignment changes done at character creation are free. Blizzard and Wildfire are examples of this. They each took 2 levels of monk, being lawful neutral, and then because chaotic neutral to take 2 levels of barbarian, losing the relevant monk abilities (flurry, etc) in the process. Actually NiQil, to be specific, you don't lose those abilities when you become non-lawful. Non-lawful Monks just can't take any more Monk levels. The reason those two can't use those abilities is because they wear medium armor. Now, if those breastplates were light (say chain shirts or mithril breastplates instead), they'd get their evasion ability back, and if they didn't wear armor at all they'd get flurry and wisdom to AC back. Alignment changes after the character has been in play are entirely dependant on the situation. A new character may get it for free...a character can quest to have an alignment change done (such as a paladin who needs to become evil to become a blackguard), or you can pay credits to alter your alignment. I believe the credit cost is 5 credits per step away from your original alignment. So going from Chaotic Neutral to Chaotic evil would be 5 credits, but going from True Neutral to Chaotic Evil would be 10 credits. Slight correction: questing for the alignment change doesn't mitigate the credit cost if its for a metagame reason, like becoming a Blackguard - still need to pay up then, you just get to RP the change (and in the case of a Blackguard or something similar probably also complete its special requirement too). Zevox
sonofzeal 02-17-07, 11:02 PM	Hey, has anyone ever tried to tally up what the relative frequency of class levels is? Cleric seems to be popular, along with the Psionic classes. I saw something in the first newspaper about frequency of armours, which can't have been much harder to tabulate.
Zevox 02-18-07, 01:45 AM	Questord Wanted Anixx the Warbringer (Iced) and Jonathan Raven (Abyssal) are going on a mission for the EHTC to improve out relations with the para-military group, the Shadow Star Assassins. They have need of a questlord for this, however. Its an EL 10 mission, set to start next week. Theres a nice amount of information on the group in the Guildhall, and I can give some more to anyone interested if you wish. If anyone is interested in running this, please contact me either here, in the EHTC thread, or via PM. Thank you. Zevox Still looking... any takers? Zevox
Abyssal Stalker 02-18-07, 02:23 AM	1. Damn, material Prices of armor are multiplied for unusual sizes, too??? *checks everything* Graah, yes, the FAQ sais so. I wish I'd knew, what was strictly read there, nothing in the rules says, that the material cost is multiplied. On the other hand, it's quite obvious, don't you think? I mean, you clearly need a different amount of material for a tiny armor and a colossal armor.
MindWandererB 02-19-07, 02:30 AM	Hey, has anyone ever tried to tally up what the relative frequency of class levels is? Cleric seems to be popular, along with the Psionic classes. I saw something in the first newspaper about frequency of armours, which can't have been much harder to tabulate. Not for a very, very long time. There's an old one in the Newspaper of Gladius, I think, but it was old even when I got here.
Abyssal Stalker 02-19-07, 03:03 AM	If someone wants to do a list like that to the Newspaper, it's worth a credit (if it's not BS, of course :))...
Sindorin 02-19-07, 10:00 AM	Stopping in for a quick peek. Nope, not coming back. Nice to see a lot of the same old faces. How are things? I can honestly say that things have changed. Lots of new rules and additions to add flavor. I have been tempted many times to return, but alas, married life is still VERY high on my priority list. Plus my wife and I moved to a new city on the west coast and are doing very well. Tellish Good to hear from you!
hogarth 02-19-07, 10:23 AM	Has anyone heard from MitzaVolchenko lately? I'd be willing to have Balthazar Picsou surrender his fight if it would ease her pitlording workload.
Macbrea 02-19-07, 10:27 AM	She is around, we just don't normally log on the weekends. Which means she will probably work on fights today or tommorrow.
Maraxus 02-19-07, 10:43 AM	On the other hand, it's quite obvious, don't you think? I mean, you clearly need a different amount of material for a tiny armor and a colossal armor. Don't come with that. ;) "Obviously" (like in Fantasy-logical) it would be that the masterwork cost is multiplied because bigger armor makes more work. The doubling in cose for a non-humanoid shape, however does not really increase the material needed, yet the FAQ sais this x2 factor is applied to special materials due too ... the way he reads the rules.
sonofzeal 02-19-07, 02:51 PM	Not for a very, very long time. There's an old one in the Newspaper of Gladius, I think, but it was old even when I got here. I'll get started on it when I have time (possibly tomorrow), unless someone else wants the honours. Should it be for every character in the Characters of Gladius thread, or only ECL4 and up? That'd get rid of all the deadweight characters that never really got played. Would I get a second credit if I went through and tabulated races as well? :cool:
TelinArtho 02-19-07, 02:55 PM	I would probably only go for the ones on the active list (2nd post of the characters thread). You could ignore the ones in ECL3 as well, but that would be up to you.
sonofzeal 02-19-07, 03:26 PM	In that case, I'll get started now. I think I'll count anyone who's had at least one fight and isn't marked with "old", if there are no objections. I'll tabulate race as I go, as well.
Erithmu 02-19-07, 03:33 PM	In that case, I'll get started now. I think I'll count anyone who's had at least one fight and isn't marked with "old", if there are no objections. I'll tabulate race as I go, as well. The Gladius Census ... I can think of about 5 jokes here, but I'm not sure any of them are within the bounds of CoC.
sonofzeal 02-19-07, 03:51 PM	The Gladius Census ... I can think of about 5 jokes here, but I'm not sure any of them are within the bounds of CoC. It's "census", not "censored". Similar, but different. :P
False_Keraptis 02-19-07, 04:04 PM	Howdy folks, I've just dusted off my old dwarf characters after a brief hiatus, and I've got a couple questions for the assembled worthies of Gladius: 1) Do grappling warhorses still run amok through the streets, filling the people's hearts with fear and trampling wantonly over all that is good and right? :( 2) One of my characters was dropped from his guild roster due to inactivity; will he have to miniquest again to rejoin, or will a simple PM to the guildlord do? 3) I cannot update one of my characters because I can't find the thread that contains his latest miniquest - it has dropped off the board, but it hasn't yet shown up in the archives. Is there anywhere I can find it, or do I just have to wait until it arrives in the archives? Thanks.
TelinArtho 02-19-07, 04:09 PM	1. I don't know that grappling warhorses have ever "run amok" - since there's never been a huge number of them. At least one gladiator still has them (Reginald), but I think they are not allowed in the ECL3 league at least (though - check the rules for confirmation of that fact - look under Customizing Allies). 2. If he is no longer ECL3, yes, he will have to miniquest again. PM the guildlord in question regardless. 3. This might be a little more difficult to find. If you know approximately when the miniquest was run - you can just go back that far in the threads to find it. In any case, the questlord was supposed to copy the Questlog into the Quests of Gladius thread for linking. I would start your search there and see what you can find. If you still can't find it - post here with the character's name and the approximate date of the quest and see if someone can find it.
hogarth 02-19-07, 04:13 PM	1) Do grappling warhorses still run amok through the streets, filling the people's hearts with fear and trampling wantonly over all that is good and right? :( It's not allowed at ECL 3, anyways. Also, the use of the Forgery skill to bring in extra allies (e.g. bringing in 2 light warhorses at ECL 3) has been removed.
Zevox 02-19-07, 04:43 PM	1) Do grappling warhorses still run amok through the streets, filling the people's hearts with fear and trampling wantonly over all that is good and right? :( Pretty much as Telin said - they never were really wanton (just a small handful, mostly Usernamer's characters really), and now you'll see even less as there is no customization of allies allowed at ECL 3. Players could grab them still at ECL 4, but since they rapidly become less useful from then, not many (none I can think of at all, actually) have. 2) One of my characters was dropped from his guild roster due to inactivity; will he have to miniquest again to rejoin, or will a simple PM to the guildlord do? If he is ECL 3 or 4, he need not miniquest. If he is ECL 5 or higher, yes, he'll have to miniquest again. Zevox
MindWandererB 02-19-07, 05:18 PM	In that case, I'll get started now. I think I'll count anyone who's had at least one fight and isn't marked with "old", if there are no objections. I'll tabulate race as I go, as well.You'll want to stick to ECL 10 and below. Those above ECL 10 are all "old" even if they're not labelled as such.
False_Keraptis 02-19-07, 05:19 PM	Wow, prompt responses. Cool. 1. I don't know that grappling warhorses have ever "run amok" - since there's never been a huge number of them. Yeah, I was being a little hyperbolic; there weren't really hordes of them when I was around, my characters just had the bad luck to meet up with them fairly often. If you know approximately when the miniquest was run - you can just go back that far in the threads to find it [...] If you still can't find it - post here with the character's name and the approximate date of the quest and see if someone can find it. Hmm... I still can't seem to find it. It was run by Vathelokai for my character Fnorri the Miser (ECL 4) for the October 25, 2006 pairings. I believe it was called "Under Construction." If anyone runs across it, please let me know. Thanks.
MindWandererB 02-19-07, 05:23 PM	Wow, prompt responses. Cool. Yeah, I was being a little hyperbolic; there weren't really hordes of them when I was around, my characters just had the bad luck to meet up with them fairly often. Hmm... I still can't seem to find it. It was run by Vathelokai for my character Fnorri the Miser (ECL 4) for the October 25, 2006 pairings. I believe it was called "Under Construction." If anyone runs across it, please let me know. Thanks. Well, here's the questlog: Under Construction Vath will need to add the rewards for it, though.
False_Keraptis 02-19-07, 05:31 PM	Vath will need to add the rewards for it, though. Thank you much. Actually I'm pretty sure Vath did put up the rewards, in the quest thread itself if not in the questlog. Is there any way to get to that?
MindWandererB 02-19-07, 06:02 PM	Thank you much. Actually I'm pretty sure Vath did put up the rewards, in the quest thread itself if not in the questlog. Is there any way to get to that? Regardless of whether that could be found, the Questlog is the official source (since it doesn't get pruned). Vath needs to edit that one to put in the rewards, or it isn't official.
sonofzeal 02-19-07, 07:05 PM	Okay, I've tabulated from lvl10 down to lvl7, the end of the "mid" section. Preliminary results are in, and it looks like Wizard is dominating! As for races, if you arn't Human or Grey Elf, don't even bother showing up. Preliminary conclusion: Hit Points? Who needs 'em?
Vathelokai 02-19-07, 07:30 PM	Good to see you, False_Keraptis. Seems I never updated the rewards in the full thread either. I'll get that in a minute. Under Construction - full thread
Zevox 02-19-07, 10:06 PM	Okay, I've tabulated from lvl10 down to lvl7, the end of the "mid" section. Preliminary results are in, and it looks like Wizard is dominating! As for races, if you arn't Human or Grey Elf, don't even bother showing up. Preliminary conclusion: Hit Points? Who needs 'em? Hm... *looks at his own characters in that level range* Half-Fiend Fighter/Ranger, High Elf Rogue/Shadowdancer, High Elf Ranger/Wizard, Goblin Psion. 18 con on two of them, 16 on another, the Goblin has more hp than all but 1 character in his league in spite of being a straight caster. I guess I don't follow the patterns. Cool :D . Zevox
Erithmu 02-19-07, 10:10 PM	I think Zevox and I are both looking for questlords still (Well Missionlord in Zevox's case) I wanted to start this coming Wednesday.
Zevox 02-19-07, 10:13 PM	Yup... didn't figure it'd be this hard to find one, or I'd have waited until I found one to spend the CAPs sending Jon and Anixx on the mission. Heres that request again, since time is coming down to the wire here... Questord Wanted Anixx the Warbringer (Iced) and Jonathan Raven (Abyssal) are going on a mission for the EHTC to improve out relations with the para-military group, the Shadow Star Assassins. They have need of a questlord for this, however. Its an EL 10 mission, set to start next week. Theres a nice amount of information on the group in the Guildhall, and I can give some more to anyone interested if you wish. If anyone is interested in running this, please contact me either here, in the EHTC thread, or via PM. Thank you. Zevox
Erithmu 02-19-07, 10:17 PM	No ... see your lucky ... You will get assigned one ... I'm Questing ... so I 'must' ask.
Zevox 02-19-07, 10:31 PM	No ... see your lucky ... You will get assigned one ... I'm Questing ... so I 'must' ask. Assigned? Cat's doing that for Guild ones? Sounds rather unfair to me - quests/missions are a lot of work, and I wouldn't want to make anyone who doesn't want to do it do it... Zevox
Erithmu 02-19-07, 10:37 PM	Missions aren't that hard, they are basically a monster fight w/ RP. I Cat will assign them if a pitlord has miniquest offerings. I got assigned to Valkin's Mission, then again I do have some interest in CEF due to having a character on the roster. *shrugs* I honestly wouldn't mind doing it, but I still need someone to run mine.
Vathelokai 02-20-07, 12:06 AM	Hm... *looks at his own characters in that level range* Half-Fiend Fighter/Ranger, High Elf Rogue/Shadowdancer, High Elf Ranger/Wizard, Goblin Psion. 18 con on two of them, 16 on another, the Goblin has more hp than all but 1 character in his league in spite of being a straight caster. I guess I don't follow the patterns. Cool :D . Zevox Neither does my dragon horizon walker with maxed con.... but I do have that gnome straight wizard and the grey elf eldrich knight... kinda half following convention on each of them.
NiQil 02-20-07, 12:11 AM	Neither does my dragon horizon walker with maxed con.... but I do have that gnome straight wizard and the grey elf eldrich knight... kinda half following convention on each of them. Seeing how almost all of my characters are Dwarves, and those that aren't are broken up between Xeph, Goblin and the occasional Elf, I think conventional went out the window about a year ago. Class-wise, it's melee for me...Barb/Fighter/Ranger/Paly or some combination thereof in most cases.
sonofzeal 02-20-07, 12:35 AM	Keep in mind that I've only looked at the upper levels so far. I expect the lower levels (3-6) to have a somewhat different balance.
Zevox 02-20-07, 12:39 AM	True - I personally expect Psionics and Clerics to be a lot more prevalent there, at the least. But in any event except for NiQil we were only looking at our upper level characters anyway. Zevox
Sutro 02-20-07, 12:57 AM	Finally got a break from a hectic schedule, Weapon is inc... Quick question, though; I can't find it. If you craft as your free activity, do you get the crafted items in the week of crafting, the week after, or after the 3FC?
NiQil 02-20-07, 01:03 AM	Finally got a break from a hectic schedule, Weapon is inc... Quick question, though; I can't find it. If you craft as your free activity, do you get the crafted items in the week of crafting, the week after, or after the 3FC? At the end of the 3FC
sonofzeal 02-20-07, 01:21 AM	What exactly happens if Mitza doesn't post my fight by Wednesday?
NiQil 02-20-07, 01:23 AM	What exactly happens if Mitza doesn't post my fight by Wednesday? It would get extended into next week and possibly assigned to a new pitlord. So make sure and don't edit your sheet until you see the fight posted, or you could forfeit.
hogarth 02-20-07, 07:27 AM	Seeing how almost all of my characters are Dwarves, and those that aren't are broken up between Xeph, Goblin and the occasional Elf, I think conventional went out the window about a year ago. Class-wise, it's melee for me...Barb/Fighter/Ranger/Paly or some combination thereof in most cases. I'm sure if you kept your characters in the active roster, the survey results would be different. Frankly, the characters in the level 8-10 "active" roster haven't been that active (except for the "Warriors of Light" participants and a few other notable exceptions) so as a representation of what characters people are actually playing, it's a bit off.
Hirumajoe 02-20-07, 07:48 AM	1) How many credits would an item of +5 to Handle Animal skill cost? What would be the appropriate affinity slot for it? And could I leave it at home and only use it for training/acquiring handle animal ally purposes? 2)How many tricks (and how many custom tricks) would it take to be able to issue a seek and sunder command? I.e. Animal looks for an enemy, and then starts attacking any small thin pieces of wood/crystal, pieces of paper, stones, and pouches (all possibly wrapped in leather container or the like). This would presumably cover wands/djores/scrolls/arrows/bolts/bullets. Presumably you'd need the base attack trick, the attack all trick, the seek trick, the down trick, and the heel trick. This leaves a spare trick slot on an int 2 eagle, and I'm wondering if you could use it to combine the attack trick with the seek trick. 3) How many animals can you pick up with a single mini-quest. Do they have to be all of the same type, or could you pick up 3 Dire Bats and 6 eagles, for exampe? Basically I'm wondering if it would be worth while to invest in getting a +11 HA skill and getting a small group of flying sundering eagles/bats/etc. This was partly inspired by the Knellstriker sundering quivers, and also Valen's 3 week (possibly 4 week) long fight. Its useful to have some full activities waiting in the wings to be used...
hogarth 02-20-07, 08:20 AM	2)How many tricks (and how many custom tricks) would it take to be able to issue a seek and sunder command? I.e. Animal looks for an enemy, and then starts attacking any small thin pieces of wood/crystal, pieces of paper, stones, and pouches (all possibly wrapped in leather container or the like). This would presumably cover wands/djores/scrolls/arrows/bolts/bullets. Presumably you'd need the base attack trick, the attack all trick, the seek trick, the down trick, and the heel trick. This leaves a spare trick slot on an int 2 eagle, and I'm wondering if you could use it to combine the attack trick with the seek trick. I don't know if you can create complex "compound" tricks like this. Maybe if you used Speak with Animals to explain it. 3) How many animals can you pick up with a single mini-quest. Do they have to be all of the same type, or could you pick up 3 Dire Bats and 6 eagles, for exampe? Basically I'm wondering if it would be worth while to invest in getting a +11 HA skill and getting a small group of flying sundering eagles/bats/etc. Reginald Molehusband got a mixed group of bats/eagles with a miniquest, so at least there's precedent. Bats would be extremely lousy at sundering, though! My intent was to load them up with Explosive Runes, but I gave up on the idea.
Zevox 02-20-07, 08:58 AM	1) How many credits would an item of +5 to Handle Animal skill cost? What would be the appropriate affinity slot for it? And could I leave it at home and only use it for training/acquiring handle animal ally purposes? 5 credits, like any other custom permanent item with an unusual bonus (in the future, take a look at the first post of the Black Market for that - it has credit costs for these things). For affinity slots, certainly a Hat would work (social interactions), and my Ceilia has a Bracelet (allies) of exactly this. And sure, you could leave it at home and only put it on when questing for/training your allies, just like any other skill item. 2)How many tricks (and how many custom tricks) would it take to be able to issue a seek and sunder command? I.e. Animal looks for an enemy, and then starts attacking any small thin pieces of wood/crystal, pieces of paper, stones, and pouches (all possibly wrapped in leather container or the like). This would presumably cover wands/djores/scrolls/arrows/bolts/bullets. Eh, I'd personally think thats beyond the animal's intelligence. You could teach it simple "seek" an "sunder" tricks, but if you're not there to point to what to sunder, I wouldn't allow it to be sundering anything personally. 3) How many animals can you pick up with a single mini-quest. Do they have to be all of the same type, or could you pick up 3 Dire Bats and 6 eagles, for exampe? Basically I'm wondering if it would be worth while to invest in getting a +11 HA skill and getting a small group of flying sundering eagles/bats/etc. I'm pretty sure they could all be obtained at once. At the very most you'd only need two miniquests for that - one for the Bats, one for the Eagles - as I know we've seen plenty of MQs for multiple allies of the same type before (my Asran, for instance, got both of his "Furies" [Dire Bats] in the same MQ; and I know plenty of Cat's characters got lots of small Air Elementals in one quest/MQ). Zevox
Abyssal Stalker 02-20-07, 09:48 AM	This is actually something that should probably be tweaked. At the moment there's no limit on what you can get with a single mq. "I'll do an EL3 MQ to get 20.000 colossal spiders." "OK. You need to beat this ettercap." "Damn hard. These MQs are really hard and I get practically nothing from them." Well, you get the idea. This was my lousy attempt to be sarcastic.
hogarth 02-20-07, 10:46 AM	I thought the number of allies you could quest for at once was capped by your maxCA, but I just noticed it only mentions that for Diplomacy allies. This is actually something that should probably be tweaked. At the moment there's no limit on what you can get with a single mq. "I'll do an EL3 MQ to get 20.000 colossal spiders." "OK. You need to beat this ettercap." "Damn hard. These MQs are really hard and I get practically nothing from them." Well, you get the idea. This was my lousy attempt to be sarcastic.
Macbrea 02-20-07, 10:55 AM	The allies rules are messed up in allowing somethings but not allowing other things. I have argued that an item needs to be changed or that some of methods of play should be charged. Example: Spells, Powers, and Abilities: Certain spells and powers (Planar Ally, Animate Dead, Dominate, Animate Object, etc) or Abilities (Rebuke undead, etc) allow a character to summon, create allies, or control allies. These allies will always require a share of your XP and gold, and on top of that the regular xp and/or gold price for acquiring them in the first place, Pretty much means anyone summoning monster into the arena are limited to summoning no more then their MaxCA monsters into the arena. And those monster cost exp. It was argued that that wasn't what that sentence structure meant. But, unless I am misreading it. Can someone tell me why summoned creatures don't count?
hogarth 02-20-07, 11:03 AM	The allies rules are messed up in allowing somethings but not allowing other things. I have argued that an item needs to be changed or that some of methods of play should be charged. Example: Spells, Powers, and Abilities: Certain spells and powers (Planar Ally, Animate Dead, Dominate, Animate Object, etc) or Abilities (Rebuke undead, etc) allow a character to summon, create allies, or control allies. These allies will always require a share of your XP and gold, and on top of that the regular xp and/or gold price for acquiring them in the first place, Pretty much means anyone summoning monster into the arena are limited to summoning no more then their MaxCA monsters into the arena. And those monster cost exp. It was argued that that wasn't what that sentence structure meant. But, unless I am misreading it. Can someone tell me why summoned creatures don't count? From context, I think it's referring to (semi-)permanent allies which are created outside of a fight. "Animate Objects" should probably read "permanently Animated Objects" and including Dominate in that list is questionable (possibly referring to dominating a creature outside of the arena and then bringing it to the fight). My personal interpretation is this: If you bring an animate creature with you into the fight (and it's not a familiar, psicrystal, paladin mount, or animal companion), then it counts against your maxCA. If you create an ally within the fight (e.g. Summon Monster, bronze griffon Figurine of Wondrous Power, Animate Objects), then it doesn't count. That's reading a lot into a rather hazy statement, though.
Macbrea 02-20-07, 11:11 AM	No, I agree... that is the way we meant the rule to be interpreted. That isn't the way it is written. The stuff in parenthesis is examples of items which qualify. And the addition of ect in the examples means that it covers all like items. I propose one of the following things happen: Ally Lover Varient: Spells, Powers, and Abilities: Certain permanent spells and powers (Planar Ally, Animate Dead, Dominate (greater then 16 hours), Permanent Animate Object) or Abilities (Rebuke undead) allow a character to summon, create allies, or control allies. These allies will always require a share of your XP and gold, and on top of that the regular xp and/or gold price for acquiring them in the first place. Ally dislikers varient: Spells, Powers, and Abilities: Spells and powers or Abilities which allow a character to summon, create allies, or control allies. These allies will always require a share of your XP and gold, and on top of that the regular xp and/or gold price for acquiring them in the first place. The second is far more restrictive.
TelinArtho 02-20-07, 11:14 AM	Assigned? Cat's doing that for Guild ones? Sounds rather unfair to me - quests/missions are a lot of work, and I wouldn't want to make anyone who doesn't want to do it do it... Zevox That's how I got the mission and operation I'm working on now... of course, if Mitza doesn't make an appearance, my short time frame is going to have to come to bear here... (I do, after all, have a baby due in 22 days...)
TelinArtho 02-20-07, 11:21 AM	Questing for animal allies is as yet unrestricted pretty much, because Cat is of the opinion that they do not need to be restricted. For what its worth, packing all of your miniquests into a single one is currently possible (but subject to nerfing...). If you notice, Zax has quested for multiple allies at a time, and I could have just as easily tried to "take advantage" of the loose ruling and packed it into one miniquest. But what does that get me? Doing something to specifically take advantage of poorly written sections of the rules does nothing but get people upset about it until it gets changed. Doing something in the spirit of the rules, is much more reasonable. Regardless, questing for x handle animal allies where x is a large number isn't very useful anyway. You are limited by the number of allies you can bring in. For animal allies, you would also need to train them individually - which can be time consuming, and animal allies are one of the weaker forms out there as you go up in ECL. While my CR1 Spider and Scorpion were pretty effective at ECL3, at ECL4, they are struggling to even survive. Take this in contrast to what Anakala's air elementals do for her - even at ECL6, and you can see that diplomacy allies are much more effective. I am not saying that perhaps animal allies shouldn't be more restricted. I would agree to a reasonable proposal to that effect in fact; however, I don't necessarily see the point to restricting it further - the player who spends one miniquest to gain 100 medium scorpions will be either spending a lot of time training them, spend the time to train the few he will be able to use reasonably, or not use them at all just to prove the point that he COULD do it.
Abyssal Stalker 02-20-07, 12:37 PM	Missions aren't that hard, they are basically a monster fight w/ RP. I Cat will assign them if a pitlord has miniquest offerings. I got assigned to Valkin's Mission, then again I do have some interest in CEF due to having a character on the roster. *shrugs* I honestly wouldn't mind doing it, but I still need someone to run mine. What are you looking for? I'm willing to run a MQ or a full quest, just give me a hint of what you are looking and sign me up.
Tellish_of_Ket 02-20-07, 12:41 PM	Just a quick question to ensure i understand things correctly. If a PC has an ally via diplomacy, then later is able to caster lesser planar ally, does the planar ally count towards his maxCA? If it does, that means, the PC would either bring in his diplomacy ally or his lesser planar ally correct but not both correct? Tellish
Tellish_of_Ket 02-20-07, 12:44 PM	I am not saying that perhaps animal allies shouldn't be more restricted. I would agree to a reasonable proposal to that effect in fact; however, I don't necessarily see the point to restricting it further - the player who spends one miniquest to gain 100 medium scorpions will be either spending a lot of time training them, spend the time to train the few he will be able to use reasonably, or not use them at all just to prove the point that he COULD do it. You can blame for for the limitations that are even preset in HA allies. hhaha. Mike and i made a couple of builds that totally abused it in the beginning. Such as a polar bear ally to a 3rd level druid, or spike's ROC ally at like 9th level. fun times, :) Tellish
SauroGrenom 02-20-07, 12:44 PM	Just a quick question to ensure i understand things correctly. If a PC has an ally via diplomacy, then later is able to caster lesser planar ally, does the planar ally count towards his maxCA? If it does, that means, the PC would either bring in his diplomacy ally or his lesser planar ally correct but not both correct? Tellish As far are I understand that is correct.
Tellish_of_Ket 02-20-07, 12:46 PM	As far are I understand that is correct. Ok, next part is...since Lesser planar ally is limited to 6hd outsiders, would then said PC be able to bring in a 4cr diplomacy ally as well? Assuming a 10th level PC. Or would he only be able to bring in a CR 2 diplomacy ally? Tellish
SauroGrenom 02-20-07, 12:55 PM	Ok, next part is...since Lesser planar ally is limited to 6hd outsiders, would then said PC be able to bring in a 4cr diplomacy ally as well? Assuming a 10th level PC. Or would he only be able to bring in a CR 2 diplomacy ally? TellishWell the Max CA is always equal to ECL. So you can only bring a total number of allies so that the CA does not exceed the Max CA allowed at your ECL. Whatever combination of allies you use, it doesn't matter, the CA is the only and final limitation.
TelinArtho 02-20-07, 12:56 PM	A 10th level PC (like Kraegin - a summoner who uses LPA), would be able to bring in a MaxCA of 8, but any individual creature could not have a CR greater than 6. So Kraegin gets a diplomacy ally of a Medium Air Elemental (CR3) and then uses LPA to summon Shadow-smoke (a nightmare, CR5) - and he is maxed out. Note that without the Thaumaturgist's discount on LPA - LPA is virtually unusable. Even with the discount, you need to invest heavily in Diplomacy to make it workable unless you start as true neutral...
TelinArtho 02-20-07, 12:56 PM	Well the Max CA is always equal to ECL. So you can only bring a total number of allies so that the CA does not exceed the Max CA allowed at your ECL. Whatever combination of allies you use, it doesn't matter, the CA is the only and final limitation. Incorrect. MaxCa = ECL-2
Tellish_of_Ket 02-20-07, 01:07 PM	A 10th level PC (like Kraegin - a summoner who uses LPA), would be able to bring in a MaxCA of 8, but any individual creature could not have a CR greater than 6. So Kraegin gets a diplomacy ally of a Medium Air Elemental (CR3) and then uses LPA to summon Shadow-smoke (a nightmare, CR5) - and he is maxed out. Note that without the Thaumaturgist's discount on LPA - LPA is virtually unusable. Even with the discount, you need to invest heavily in Diplomacy to make it workable unless you start as true neutral... Well, yes that is my plan. But my diplomacy is good enough to get a Huge Air Elemental (CR 7), but like u said i guess, since i'd be only 10th level, the best Air i could do would be CR6. I'd still be allowed another CR 2, or ECL 2 ally. If i used straight ECL, i guess i would be able to have one 8th level ally. Now to search the MM/SRD for an ECL 8 ally to call with Planar Ally. Tellish
Hirumajoe 02-20-07, 01:30 PM	Regardless, questing for x handle animal allies where x is a large number isn't very useful anyway. You are limited by the number of allies you can bring in. For animal allies, you would also need to train them individually - which can be time consuming, and animal allies are one of the weaker forms out there as you go up in ECL. While my CR1 Spider and Scorpion were pretty effective at ECL3, at ECL4, they are struggling to even survive. Take this in contrast to what Anakala's air elementals do for her - even at ECL6, and you can see that diplomacy allies are much more effective. I am not saying that perhaps animal allies shouldn't be more restricted. I would agree to a reasonable proposal to that effect in fact; however, I don't necessarily see the point to restricting it further - the player who spends one miniquest to gain 100 medium scorpions will be either spending a lot of time training them, spend the time to train the few he will be able to use reasonably, or not use them at all just to prove the point that he COULD do it. I personally was thinking something like 6 eagles for Valen Sky. Who at ECL 7 could easily bring 10 1/2 cr animals. Although if I go with that few, I might as well just hire 6 trainers for 6 weeks. 1800 gp is cheaper than the 2,500 for a +5 skill item. Of course, if I can't actually train a "Fire and Forget" seek and sunder skill, I suppose there isn't much point. Ideally, I'd like to be able to just have my psicrystal take two move actions at the beginning of the fight to send off a pair of eagles and then not have to worry about it later. However in regards to time, Valen Sky is in his *3rd week* of a fight. And is likely going into his *4th week*. At the moment, the rules allow him a full activity for each week delayed. However he has absolutely nothing useful to do with those full actions at the moment. Having a hobby of training some animals might do him some good. Not to mention most of his free activities up to this point have been "Guard House" since he doesn't have a money making skill. So taking alot of time might be considered the point. :) Although you do make an excellent point on survivability. 1/2 CR Eagles are going to be taken out in one hit generally, even by a wizard's staff if need be. Which essentially means its a 300g investment per 50/50 die roll to sunder a random scroll, quiver, or spell component pouch. I can probably make better use of 1,800 gp. Oh well.
TelinArtho 02-20-07, 01:38 PM	For complex maneuvers - intelligent creatures are just going to be better to use - more reliable, allows for more complex instructions and some amount of ad hoc planning. Animal allies, with some exception, are "best" when used as brutes - as that plays to most of the strength of the animal type. Trying to "finesse" an animal can be done - but it does require some care... Also note that in situations with multiple small creatures, you have to make handle animal checks individually - meaning an "Attack" order to all 10 has to be done over the course of 10 move actions...
Tellish_of_Ket 02-20-07, 01:43 PM	Another Allies question. There are two ways to calcualte an ally's CA. CR and LA+HD. If it has an LA, do i automatically use the LA+HD method, or can i opt to use it's CR? Tellish
SauroGrenom 02-20-07, 01:45 PM	I personally was thinking something like 6 eagles for Valen Sky.Remind me to never pitlord for that character. That strikes me as perhaps the most burdensome idea I've ever heard of especially considering the minimal effect of having all these worthless allies in the fight. All it does is give the pitlord a headache to keep track of a half dozen extra combatants who don't contribute meaningfully, and that cannot be good for your character.
TelinArtho 02-20-07, 01:51 PM	Another Allies question. There are two ways to calcualte an ally's CA. CR and LA+HD. If it has an LA, do i automatically use the LA+HD method, or can i opt to use it's CR? Tellish CA is calculated as the creatures CR in all cases with two exceptions: 1. Leadership cohort (and by extension Planar Cohort of the Thaumaturgist) 2. Thrallherd In these two cases the ECL is used (LA+HD).
Tellish_of_Ket 02-20-07, 01:56 PM	CA is calculated as the creatures CR in all cases with two exceptions: 1. Leadership cohort (and by extension Planar Cohort of the Thaumaturgist) 2. Thrallherd In these two cases the ECL is used (LA+HD). AH..ok. So then an average salamander 9hd, CR 6, LA+5...would indeed be calculated as a CR 6 for towards my maxCA, which would mean, if i were able to obtain it as an ally (ECL 10-4=6), i could bring it along with me and grab another CR 2 somewhere as well? not too shabby. Tellish
TelinArtho 02-20-07, 02:02 PM	AH..ok. So then an average salamander 9hd, CR 6, LA+5...would indeed be calculated as a CR 6 for towards my maxCA, which would mean, if i were able to obtain it as an ally (ECL 10-4=6), i could bring it along with me and grab another CR 2 somewhere as well? not too shabby. Tellish Yes, and the only way to gain one without using leadership/planar cohort would be to gain it with Planar Ally - which isn't a spell you can cast yourself until ECL11 (ok - I suppose you could purchase a scroll of it with credits for 2400gp and 1 credit - but since the ally doesn't persist outside, that's a pretty hefty cost...)
McJarvis 02-20-07, 02:07 PM	I've never really leveled up a wizard before, so here it goes. At level 3 Journey had a natural int of 19(+4). He also bought a headband of intellect +1. He is a human. He has three levels of wizard. According to CoCo, he has how many skills...? a) (2+1+4)*6 b) (2+1+5)*6 Before reaching level 4 he upgraded his headband of intellect to a +2 headband. Now he has a 21 int. According to CoCo, he now has how many new skill points...?(noting that his ECL 4 attribute is going to int, giving him a 22 int) a) (2+1+4)*7 b) (2+1+5)*7 c) (2+1+5)*6+(2+1+6) Currently I have recorded him as having b) and c), respectively.
sonofzeal 02-20-07, 02:10 PM	I've never really leveled up a wizard before, so here it goes. At level 3 Journey had a natural int of 19(+4). He also bought a headband of intellect +1. He is a human. He has three levels of wizard. According to CoCo, he has how many skills...? a) (2+1+4)*6 b) (2+1+5)*6 At before reaching level 4 he upgraded his headband of intellect to a +2 headband. Now he has a 21 int. According to CoCo, he now has how many new skill points...? a) (2+1+4)*7 b) (2+1+5)*7 c) (2+1+5)*6+(2+1+6) Currently I have recorded him as having b) and c), respectively. I'm fairly certain that Headbands of Intellect and the spell Fox's Cunning never grant you extra skillpoints. Edit - Found it. "This enhancement bonus does not earn the wearer extra skill points when a new level is attained; use the unenhanced Intelligence bonus to determine skill points."
Macbrea 02-20-07, 02:10 PM	Headband of Intellect has the following statement with it. 'This enhancement bonus does not earn the wearer extra skill points when a new level is attained; use the unenhanced Intelligence bonus to determine skill points.'
TelinArtho 02-20-07, 02:11 PM	I've never really leveled up a wizard before, so here it goes. At level 3 Journey had a natural int of 19(+4). He also bought a headband of intellect +1. He is a human. He has three levels of wizard. According to CoCo, he has how many skills...? a) (2+1+4)*6 b) (2+1+5)*6 Before reaching level 4 he upgraded his headband of intellect to a +2 headband. Now he has a 21 int. According to CoCo, he now has how many new skill points...?(noting that his ECL 4 attribute is going to int, giving him a 22 int) a) (2+1+4)*7 b) (2+1+5)*7 c) (2+1+5)*6+(2+1+6) Currently I have recorded him as having b) and c), respectively. Headband of Intellect: This device is a light cord with a small gem set so that it rests upon the forehead of the wearer. The headband adds to the wearer’s Intelligence score in the form of an enhancement bonus of +2, +4, or +6. This enhancement bonus does not earn the wearer extra skill points when a new level is attained; use the unenhanced Intelligence bonus to determine skill points. There you go.
hogarth 02-20-07, 02:11 PM	A headband of intellect doesn't affect skill points. Headband of Intellect This device is a light cord with a small gem set so that it rests upon the forehead of the wearer. The headband adds to the wearer’s Intelligence score in the form of an enhancement bonus of +2, +4, or +6. This enhancement bonus does not earn the wearer extra skill points when a new level is attained; use the unenhanced Intelligence bonus to determine skill points. EDIT: Ouch! Ninja'ed thrice!!
TelinArtho 02-20-07, 02:15 PM	And just to answer your question, here's another tidbit that is important: When an ability score changes, all attributes associated with that score change accordingly. A character does not retroactively get additional skill points for previous levels if she increases her intelligence. So your character with a +4 int bonus at ECL3, and +4 at ECL4 (without including the enhancement bonus for the headband), should have: (2+1+4)*4 for ECL1 (2+1+4) for ECL2 and 3 (2+1+5) for ECL4 For a total of 50 skill points.
McJarvis 02-20-07, 02:23 PM	And just to answer your question, here's another tidbit that is important: So your character with a +4 int bonus at ECL3, and +4 at ECL4 (without including the enhancement bonus for the headband), should have: (2+1+4)*4 for ECL1 (2+1+4) for ECL2 and 3 (2+1+5) for ECL4 For a total of 50 skill points. Thanks for the quick answer :) So the attribute advancement is added before skill points are allocated....registered in mind :) Thanks again!
Tellish_of_Ket 02-20-07, 02:28 PM	Yes, and the only way to gain one without using leadership/planar cohort would be to gain it with Planar Ally - which isn't a spell you can cast yourself until ECL11 (ok - I suppose you could purchase a scroll of it with credits for 2400gp and 1 credit - but since the ally doesn't persist outside, that's a pretty hefty cost...) ya, forgot about the 9hd part. thx. can we bring furniture into the arena? (humour me). Tellish
TelinArtho 02-20-07, 02:31 PM	Yes, but you still need to pay for it... (what that cost is can be highly variable...) Oh and if it is the ravid - any objects that start off animated would count against your MaxCa...
Hirumajoe 02-20-07, 02:35 PM	Remind me to never pitlord for that character. That strikes me as perhaps the most burdensome idea I've ever heard of especially considering the minimal effect of having all these worthless allies in the fight. All it does is give the pitlord a headache to keep track of a half dozen extra combatants who don't contribute meaningfully, and that cannot be good for your character. Well, I was actually thinking 2 per fight, since I wouldn't be expecting them to live. So 6 means 2 per fight of the 3FC. And yes, 6 eagles would be excessive all at once, I agree. So you'd be dealing with a grand total of 3 units. Although assuming 6 eagles were used in one fight, they could actually be really handy, even against higher ecl foes. Imagine 6 eagles completely surrounding an average or worse manueverability flier at a distance of 10-15', in all directions. Might make it hard to maintain enough forward air speed to avoid falling. Or 6 attempting to sunder a wizards spell component pouch. Thats always only going to be an AC of 10+2+Dex, no matter his level. Or his held scroll. Or an archer's quivers. Then again, all this would require special training, which may or may not be allowed. And in the end, they're probably not as effective as a straight up ECL 3 or higher ally.
TelinArtho 02-20-07, 02:41 PM	Whether or not a DC bonus can apply to things like trip seems debatable. Given the context, I generally tend to interpret it as a DC with a random element (d20 + x) instead of a flat numer (10 + x). Allowing it to work that way certainly isn't broken (Improved Trip gives a +4, Ability Focus only gives a +2), but if it's been ruled that way in the past, I won't make a fuss about it. Also, where does it give caster level for the Potion of Reduce Person? The potion is certainly useful enough to warrent the boost in price, but I don't see an explicit caster level anywhere. @SonofZeal - just trying to keep discussion out of the prison thread. In regards to your first section, that is definitely a house rule. If you want to see that in place, you're going to have to lobby for it and get some elder approval. I don't think it has come up before - but I don't think I'd be approving it without more evidence. EDIT: For the record, there are a few questions in the FAQ about Ability Focus and none of them would accept a "liberal" reading as you have put forth above. For your second point, potions have a known formula for price: CLxSLx50gp. A potion of Reduce person is 250gp, and reduce person is SL 1, therefore the CL is 5. You can get a lower CL potion if you like, but that would cost credits.
Tellish_of_Ket 02-20-07, 02:51 PM	Yes, but you still need to pay for it... (what that cost is can be highly variable...) Oh and if it is the ravid - any objects that start off animated would count against your MaxCa... yup, thinking of ravid, but i wouldn't start them animated....just bring in a couple of huge tables and such, and animate them one round at a time. Also, concerning LPA...i've quickly come up with a few goodies. Are any of my permutations illegal? I have a ton more, but in alphabetical order, those are the first few. Just making sure i'm not way off base. juvenile arrowhawk advanced to 6hd, CR 6 + a cr 2 diplo ally (two cr 1 air ele scouts) barghest 6hd, CR 4 + another CR 4 diplo ally (young white dragon) 2nd lvl ranger half celestial centaur, cr 6 (two cr 1 air ele scouts) 3rd lvl half-celestial barbarian bugbear, cr 6 (same as above) Bearded devil hd6, cr 5 (plus other dip allies totaling 3 cr’s) Half-celestial/very young white dragon, CR 4 Bralani eladrin (6hd), CR6 I could go on and on, but those are just some examples of permutations that are LPA friendly. Tellish
TelinArtho 02-20-07, 02:57 PM	First off - templates are not allowed. Secondly - I suggested at the time the rules were fleshed out that advanced creatures should be carefully allowed. Nothing has come of that yet - but an advanced arrowhawk might be just enough to cover the need to address it. Bear in mind you are going to need some hefty diplomacy skill in order to manage something that isn't exactly your alignment (oh and by the way - I have a full list of all the LPA allies that are possible - if you want to take a look at some point). For a same alignment ally, you are looking at a DC20 diplomacy in order to get it for half price (as a Thaumaturgist). For free, you need a DC20+HD check (so DC26 pretty much). For an alignment that is one step off, the base DC is 30 for half price, and 30+HD for free. For an alignment that is two steps off, its 40, and 40+HD respectively. In other words, pick your alignment carefully or plan to invest heavily in diplomacy (much more than you would need for just a regular diplomacy ally...).
Tellish_of_Ket 02-20-07, 03:03 PM	First off - templates are not allowed. Secondly - I suggested at the time the rules were fleshed out that advanced creatures should be carefully allowed. Nothing has come of that yet - but an advanced arrowhawk might be just enough to cover the need to address it. Bear in mind you are going to need some hefty diplomacy skill in order to manage something that isn't exactly your alignment (oh and by the way - I have a full list of all the LPA allies that are possible - if you want to take a look at some point). For a same alignment ally, you are looking at a DC20 diplomacy in order to get it for half price (as a Thaumaturgist). For free, you need a DC20+HD check (so DC26 pretty much). For an alignment that is one step off, the base DC is 30 for half price, and 30+HD for free. For an alignment that is two steps off, its 40, and 40+HD respectively. In other words, pick your alignment carefully or plan to invest heavily in diplomacy (much more than you would need for just a regular diplomacy ally...). Grr....no templates. But i can understand why. Currently the build i'm working on has a 20cha, skill focus: diplomacy and max ranks and a circlet of persuasion, cloak +2 (22cha) giving him: (13ranks+6cha+3circlet+3feat)=25, taking 10 gives him 35, that's pretty good. With proper alignment selection, (in conjuction with a dip ally from list), things should go well. I still have room for one extra feat and it's a toss up between silent spell and negotiator (+2 dip/sense). Tellish
TelinArtho 02-20-07, 03:11 PM	Looks good. I would suggest not bothering with the negotiator personally - if you need the extra point in diplomacy, switch out the circlet for a custom diplomacy item (given that you have the credits to spare anyway), which will be cheaper. Of course, if you want the generic +3 bonus to all Cha checks, I suppose the circlet would be more useful then... I might suggest looking into the nightmare as a possible ally. Having played around with a few options, I think it is one of the most useful ones around - given its ability to go ethereal (to take care of those nasty ghosts...). Of course, Kraegin has tainted my perception since I tend to only look at the evil options... Bralani is a solid choice of course, especially if your opponent can't beat the DR. The bearded devil is an option as long as you outfit him with some long range capability and/or flight; same would apply for the barghest (both of which were considerations for Kraegin - but he needed a monster that could fly...)
Tellish_of_Ket 02-20-07, 03:19 PM	Looks good. I would suggest not bothering with the negotiator personally - if you need the extra point in diplomacy, switch out the circlet for a custom diplomacy item (given that you have the credits to spare anyway), which will be cheaper. Of course, if you want the generic +3 bonus to all Cha checks, I suppose the circlet would be more useful then... I might suggest looking into the nightmare as a possible ally. Having played around with a few options, I think it is one of the most useful ones around - given its ability to go ethereal (to take care of those nasty ghosts...). Of course, Kraegin has tainted my perception since I tend to only look at the evil options... Bralani is a solid choice of course, especially if your opponent can't beat the DR. The bearded devil is an option as long as you outfit him with some long range capability and/or flight; same would apply for the barghest (both of which were considerations for Kraegin - but he needed a monster that could fly...) Ya, i saw the nightmare as i was flipping through the MM, and now with no templates, there goes my advanced half-celestial pegasus idea. :( Thx for the suggestion of a custom circlet for Diplomacy. It's all i really need it for and i have oodles of credits. A 6th level assimar cleric (summoner) wouldn't be a too bad idea either. Then next level (11th), i could get an 7th level assimar cleric/thaum + a dip ally, lol lol. Tellish
TelinArtho 02-20-07, 03:21 PM	It hasn't been addressed whether you can take creatures with class levels either...
Tellish_of_Ket 02-20-07, 03:21 PM	oh, and at 11th, i'd actually be able to LPA a succubus. The good thing i like about the various demons/devils for LPA/PA is that it's a calling, so they can use their summon abilities as well. Tellish **EDIT It hasn't been addressed whether you can take creatures with class levels either... But there are no rules against it either is there?
TelinArtho 02-20-07, 03:24 PM	But there are no rules against it either is there? Not yet - but I would suggest getting a ruling on it before just forging ahead... EDIT: did a look up on the conversation (it took place in Council II starting around post 500 or so and lasting for 100+ posts). Templates were certainly ruled out entirely. It appears class leveled allies weren't brought up, and as I said - no one addressed advanced allies at the time.
Zevox 02-20-07, 03:29 PM	Note: Aasimars are Native Outsiders, not Extraplanar Outsiders. According to the description of Conjuration (Calling) spells, they summon creatures from other planes - which would by definition be Extraplanar creatures, not Native ones. So no Aasimar anything. Zevox
hogarth 02-20-07, 03:29 PM	yup, thinking of ravid, but i wouldn't start them animated....just bring in a couple of huge tables and such, and animate them one round at a time. I'd suggest suits of scale armor for a Gargantuan multi-legged being (like a dragon). Those were the cheapest and most portable Gargantuan-sized objects that I could come up with. You might need a donkey or something to help you carry them into the arena.
Tellish_of_Ket 02-20-07, 03:31 PM	But when you look at it from a game-balance perspective, Leadership gives u an ally ECL-2, LPA is forever stuck at ECL-4. So, that 5th level aasimar (+1 la=CR 6), would be all i could muster for him...hardly comparable to an 8th level elven wizard (example) using leadership. Tellish
TelinArtho 02-20-07, 03:32 PM	Well, regardless - Zevox has a very valid point above.
False_Keraptis 02-20-07, 03:33 PM	Howdy folks, Quick question: I am updating Fnorri the Miser, and his last activity was an out-of-cycle miniquest. Would he get the cash from a free activity: craft, even though it was out-of-cycle? Thanks.
Tellish_of_Ket 02-20-07, 03:35 PM	Note: Aasimars are Native Outsiders, not Extraplanar Outsiders. According to the description of Conjuration (Calling) spells, they summon creatures from other planes - which would by definition be Extraplanar creatures, not Native ones. So no Aasimar anything. Zevox Neither the phb definition of Conjuration(calling), nor the spell description of Planar Ally, Lesser...say it must be extraplanar. Simply elemental, and/or outsider. But i do understand what you are trying to say, and that is a VERY good question. Tellish **Edit Personally, i agree and i think it makes sense to assume it as such unless there is more concrete evidence othewise. Nice notice.
Zevox 02-20-07, 03:37 PM	But when you look at it from a game-balance perspective, Leadership gives u an ally ECL-2, LPA is forever stuck at ECL-4. So, that 5th level aasimar (+1 la=CR 6), would be all i could muster for him...hardly comparable to an 8th level elven wizard (example) using leadership. Tellish Even so, looking at it both from the obvious intent of the spell (summoning Outsiders from other planes) and the rules of that type of spell (summons Outsiders from other planes - aka Extraplanar Outsiders), it doesn't work out. To be perfectly honest, the entire concept of summoning Native Outsiders is kinda silly. They're native to the Prime, with only partial Outsider blood - they're not bound by the sort of rules those on the Planes are that allow them to be summoned. And thankfully, it looks like the rules coincide with that sort of lore for once. Zevox
Tellish_of_Ket 02-20-07, 03:40 PM	Even so, looking at it both from the obvious intent of the spell (summoning Outsiders from other planes) and the rules of that type of spell (summons Outsiders from other planes - aka Extraplanar Outsiders), it doesn't work out. To be perfectly honest, the entire concept of summoning Native Outsiders is kinda silly. They're native to the Prime, with only partial Outsider blood - they're not bound by the sort of rules those on the Planes are that allow them to be summoned. And thankfully, it looks like the rules coincide with that sort of lore for once. Zevox yeah, i agree. I did not notice (or paid enough attention to the fact) that aasimar's were native, not extra-planar. Looks like my choices are kinda limited, lol. Almost thinking it would be easier to grab the leadership feat, and a cleric 7/thaum 1 ally. lol. Tellish
hogarth 02-20-07, 03:43 PM	Howdy folks, Quick question: I am updating Fnorri the Miser, and his last activity was an out-of-cycle miniquest. Would he get the cash from a free activity: craft, even though it was out-of-cycle? Thanks. Quests and miniquests don't give free activities. They don't even give the benefits of an automatic skill package like Political Career, according to Cat.
False_Keraptis 02-20-07, 04:14 PM	Quests and miniquests don't give free activities. Muchas gracias.
McJarvis 02-20-07, 04:40 PM	While it is certainly a shame that TIM's fight seems to be in the process of being held over into next week, it's really neat to see all of my characters together in the rankings page. :-) Go Team Zo(ECL4)!! ;-)
MindWandererB 02-20-07, 04:50 PM	Regarding the furniture ally: Bear in mind that you have to be able to carry all the equipment you bring into the arena! This has been an issue with TK-using ghosts before--it was ruled that they can't start with the ground around them littered with Collosal Sianghams. You might want to invest in a cart of some sort if you want to pull this off--and maybe a mule, too, I haven't checked the rules on how much weight a person can drag along in a cart. (Not sure there are such rules.) Or you could just animate the cart.
sonofzeal 02-20-07, 04:56 PM	Regarding the furniture ally: Bear in mind that you have to be able to carry all the equipment you bring into the arena! This has been an issue with TK-using ghosts before--it was ruled that they can't start with the ground around them littered with Collosal Sianghams. You might want to invest in a cart of some sort if you want to pull this off--and maybe a mule, too, I haven't checked the rules on how much weight a person can drag along in a cart. (Not sure there are such rules.) Or you could just animate the cart. Just out of curiosity, why Sianghams?
SauroGrenom 02-20-07, 04:59 PM	Just out of curiosity, why Sianghams? Their damage to weight ratio is the best as size goes up. Although if you didn't have to carry them, then I don't know why you'd care. I suppose colossal great axe would cause the most damage.
TelinArtho 02-20-07, 05:00 PM	Just out of curiosity, why Sianghams? Lightest weapon with biggest damage die (1lbs, 1d6). Ammo is excluded since it would get destroyed on a successful hit and has a 50% chance of being destroyed on a miss.
MindWandererB 02-20-07, 05:07 PM	Their damage to weight ratio is the best as size goes up. Although if you didn't have to carry them, then I don't know why you'd care. I suppose colossal great axe would cause the most damage. Weight matters because TK has a weight restriction as well.
Guildmaster_LOY 02-20-07, 09:29 PM	WANTED: Adventurers of Noble mind who would see that the true king of Gladius is once again upon his throne! Join the Loyalists today!
Maraxus 02-20-07, 09:30 PM	I've asked before: Any willing pitlord for a Miniquest here? Durin, ECL 5, wants to join Warminds and become neutral good? PS: A simple Monster-fight-style Miniquest would be okay, too, I guess.
Eluria 02-20-07, 10:10 PM	Alright, finally having some time on my hands I took some comments to heart and am trying a new bent on the psionic archer... Please check out: Mohmat Iptomor once more. The plan is to end up Wilder4/PW2/Slayer; this level is a little painful without the DC Longbow weapon proficiency, which will come next level (along with psionic meditation)... any thoughts, or errors, or suggestions? I appreciate all the feedback I've been getting so far. This place is fun, and you've all been very welcoming.
McJarvis 02-20-07, 10:12 PM	This place is fun, and you've all been very welcoming. You're welcome! *waits for laughter*
NiQil 02-20-07, 10:18 PM	Alright, finally having some time on my hands I took some comments to heart and am trying a new bent on the psionic archer... Please check out: Mohmat Iptomor once more. The plan is to end up Wilder4/PW2/Slayer; this level is a little painful without the DC Longbow weapon proficiency, which will come next level (along with psionic meditation)... any thoughts, or errors, or suggestions? I appreciate all the feedback I've been getting so far. This place is fun, and you've all been very welcoming. Glad you think so...others <coughjjonescough> sure didn't. ......and yet another light warhorse enters ECL 3. This makes me want to create a build that focuses on controlling animals just to have the ability to make the horses go away LOL
nickbeat 02-20-07, 10:51 PM	I can't seem to load the battles of gladius page. Any idea if something is broken? I've been trying all day.
Erithmu 02-20-07, 10:55 PM	Glad you think so...others <coughjjonescough> sure didn't. ......and yet another light warhorse enters ECL 3. This makes me want to create a build that focuses on controlling animals just to have the ability to make the horses go away LOLMy ECL 6 druid has been preping a Hold Animal for quite some time now. That spell does wonders ...
Rauul 02-20-07, 11:01 PM	I can't seem to load the battles of gladius page. Any idea if something is borken? might have to make another post for the battle... don't know how long it is..
hogarth 02-20-07, 11:02 PM	I can't seem to load the battles of gladius page. Any idea if something is borken? If you machine has limited memory (like mine does), you may need to go to your Options and set the number of posts lower, (like 20 per page rather than 30-50 per page).
Erithmu 02-20-07, 11:03 PM	I can't seem to load the battles of gladius page. Any idea if something is borken? It might be the number of posts you have per page. For some reason if you drop it below 30 you will be fine, and it is only with the Battles thread due to just the large amount of text and images that are in each post.
Rauul 02-20-07, 11:10 PM	making a new charater for here... my first higher level charater.. don't have the credits yet but am working on that.. but here he is please send any concerns about him... Groth Has'ith (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11532929&postcount=1074)
nickbeat 02-20-07, 11:14 PM	Thanks, that did it!
sonofzeal 02-20-07, 11:57 PM	Okay, I'm finished my survey, and am working on trying to take the least used options and making them into a valid build. A few questions though, without tipping my hand... 1) Do we use fractional BAB? Would a cleric1/monk1/druid1 have a BAB of 2 or 0? 2) Can feats be saved and spent later? Let's say I'm a pure halfling rogue, and I want Weapon Focus and Weapon Finess, can I "save" my lvl1 feat and spend it later, after I've gotten that precious +1 BAB? 3) An ECL 3 creature with an LA of +1 only has one feat to work with (except for bonus feats), right? 4) What's starting gold for ECL 4?
Tellish_of_Ket 02-20-07, 11:58 PM	quick question: a non-monk (assume fighter) is wearing a monk's belt and full plate, does he/she still gain the wisdom to ac bonus? Tellish
TelinArtho 02-20-07, 11:59 PM	1. 0 2. nope - if you get a feat you have to select it immediately 3. correct 4. That can be found in the rules thread (I don't know off the top of my head).
Tellish_of_Ket 02-21-07, 12:00 AM	Okay, I'm finished my survey, and am working on trying to take the least used options and making them into a valid build. A few questions though, without tipping my hand... 1) Do we use fractional BAB? Would a cleric1/monk1/druid1 have a BAB of 2 or 0? 2) Can feats be saved and spent later? Let's say I'm a pure halfling rogue, and I want Weapon Focus and Weapon Finess, can I "save" my lvl1 feat and spend it later, after I've gotten that precious +1 BAB? 3) An ECL 3 creature with an LA of +1 only has one feat to work with (except for bonus feats), right? 4) What's starting gold for ECL 4? Answers: 1 - Bab of 0 2 - No. 3 - yes. 4 - ECL 4 6300xp 5700gp Tellish
Vathelokai 02-21-07, 12:05 AM	quick question: a non-monk (assume fighter) is wearing a monk's belt and full plate, does he/she still gain the wisdom to ac bonus? Tellish Yes. It came up in the elder thread and I believe it's in the Court rulings (which are now located at the begining of the courtroom thread).
Vathelokai 02-21-07, 12:08 AM	Question: The intrepid dragon hunters Bulgar and Erithmu encountered a fiendish assassin vine in the woods. The creature with the fiendish template retains it's own creature type [plant], but gains the subtype [extraplanar]. Can one of our adventurers identify the beast with knowledge: planes? Do knowledge skills identify any of the subtypes (e.g. cold, earth)? The knowledge: psionics skill seems created to identify a specific subtype, but as with all psionics rules it is not written explicitly, and makes a bad example in my opinion. It's not fight effecting; I'm just wondering.
MindWandererB 02-21-07, 12:09 AM	Yes. It came up in the elder thread and I believe it's in the Court rulings (which are now located at the begining of the courtroom thread).No. The character gains the AC bonus of a monk, which does not apply when wearing armor or using a shield. Question: The intrepid dragon hunters Bulgar and Erithmu encountered a fiendish assassin vine in the woods. The creature with the fiendish template retains it's own creature type [plant], but gains the subtype [extraplanar]. Can one of our adventurers identify the beast with knowledge: planes? Do knowledge skills identify any of the subtypes (e.g. cold, earth)? It's not fight effecting; I'm just wondering.Not by our rules, no. I have seen some questlords split it into two knowledges: one (Nature in this case) to identify the base creature, and another (Planes, here) to identify the template. I rather like that adjudication, but it's not how our rules work as written.
Rauul 02-21-07, 12:11 AM	Question: The intrepid dragon hunters Bulgar and Erithmu encountered a fiendish assassin vine in the woods. The creature with the fiendish template retains it's own creature type [plant], but gains the subtype [extraplanar]. Can one of our adventurers identify the beast with knowledge: planes? Do knowledge skills identify any of the subtypes (e.g. cold, earth)? It's not fight effecting; I'm just wondering. Knowkedge planes has a chance since it's fiendish, arcane and nature might also..
NiQil 02-21-07, 12:44 AM	No. The character gains the AC bonus of a monk, which does not apply when wearing armor or using a shield. Not by our rules, no. I have seen some questlords split it into two knowledges: one (Nature in this case) to identify the base creature, and another (Planes, here) to identify the template. I rather like that adjudication, but it's not how our rules work as written. MWB is correct. Here is the relevant entry from the FAQ regarding monk's belts: Does a monk’s belt (Dungeon Master’s Guide, 248) grant a non-monk wearer his Wisdom bonus to AC? Yes. Note, however, that the wearer gains the AC bonus only when unarmored and unencumbered, since the belt clearly states that “this AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus.”
Tellish_of_Ket 02-21-07, 12:47 AM	Ya, i figured as much. Just very rusty since i've been away for some time. Not as much of a guru as i used to be. Tellish
Vathelokai 02-21-07, 12:54 AM	No. The character gains the AC bonus of a monk, which does not apply when wearing armor or using a shield.Oops... missed the 'full plate' part of the question. Not by our rules, no. I have seen some questlords split it into two knowledges: one (Nature in this case) to identify the base creature, and another (Planes, here) to identify the template. I rather like that adjudication, but it's not how our rules work as written.The 2 skill version is what I've always used, but I didn't know if it was a house rule or not. Thanks.
hogarth 02-21-07, 09:29 AM	The Pipes of the Sewers state that the rat swarms attracted take one round to arrive for every 50 feet the rats have to travel. Anyone care to hazard a guess what that means in terms of the various arenas? :confused:
Maraxus 02-21-07, 09:43 AM	Good question. I think this needs a gm-call, since this is basicly up to the dm. I'd say Sewers 1 round should be clear the others should be somewhat random, with increasing dies in the order City Arena Cavern/Temple And they should not work on the plains. For the others above, I'd suggest 1d3, 1d6, 1d10 but maybe this could be to low... I can't see a swarm of rats next to every 10th temple ... but then again with those Goblin-deities...
McJarvis 02-21-07, 09:49 AM	The Pipes of the Sewers state that the rat swarms attracted take one round to arrive for every 50 feet the rats have to travel. Anyone care to hazard a guess what that means in terms of the various arenas? :confused: I'd say they arrive in one round. The arenas are all rat-infested since they are as convenient as you need them to be ;)
Maraxus 02-21-07, 09:57 AM	They took our Mercenaries!!! Google (http://209.85.129.104/search?q=cache:pAmMnpB_rywJ:boards1.wiza rds.com/showthread.php) still has them in the cache, if it helps.
hogarth 02-21-07, 10:00 AM	Good question. I think this needs a gm-call, since this is basicly up to the dm. I'd say Sewers 1 round should be clear the others should be somewhat random, with increasing dies in the order City Arena Cavern/Temple And they should not work on the plains. If you don't believe that there are rats on the plains, I can assure you that Rattus norvegicus can be found just about anywhere in the world (except, of course, for the province of Alberta, Canada). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_rat
McJarvis 02-21-07, 10:21 AM	If you don't believe that there are rats on the plains, I can assure you that Rattus norvegicus can be found just about anywhere in the world (except, of course, for the province of Alberta, Canada). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_rat No, he was implying that anything that chooses to live on the plains is likely to be a boring stick-in-the-mud & not like your music. This explains the "Bible Belt" of the US. ;)
Abyssal Stalker 02-21-07, 12:01 PM	The Pipes of the Sewers state that the rat swarms attracted take one round to arrive for every 50 feet the rats have to travel. Anyone care to hazard a guess what that means in terms of the various arenas? :confused: I at least think that they were once used by someone in the arena. It was definitely before the implementation of random arenas. I can't remember who used them and what happened. Anyone?
TelinArtho 02-21-07, 12:03 PM	Do creatures summoned with LPA come with their own equipment? This question is sparked because of ToK's new character who has summoned a Bralani, whose stats list a Holy +1 Scimitar and a Holy +1 Comp. Long Bow... That's effectively adding 36000gp to the equipment of such a character... (its one thing for a temporary summons like SMV, but entirely different for an ally that lasts multiple fights)
Hirumajoe 02-21-07, 12:32 PM	Do creatures summoned with LPA come with their own equipment? This question is sparked because of ToK's new character who has summoned a Bralani, whose stats list a Holy +1 Scimitar and a Holy +1 Comp. Long Bow... That's effectively adding 36000gp to the equipment of such a character... (its one thing for a temporary summons like SMV, but entirely different for an ally that lasts multiple fights) And how much in the Bralani itself worth? :D He's got to be worth a pretty penny too and he's effectively added to the character's equipment. I think as long as said items are retained by the Bralani and not used/sold/upgraded by ToK it probably would be fine. I'm assuming that equipment is included in the CR calculation of the Bralani and removing it should in principle drop its CR. Since I don't know how much that would be, and it seems rather unfair to penalize outsiders that come with equipment over outsiders that don't I'd suggest letting it keep it. However, we do have the precedent that Leadership allies come with no equipment so you'd certainly be within reason to say no. I just don't think its necessary. Those are my 2 (non-elder) cents.
TelinArtho 02-21-07, 01:24 PM	Just looking over Jur some more and I noticed another questionable thing: Permanent See Invisibility (CL10) Now - he does have the Magic domain, but his CL is only 5 for that - which means the see invisibility that was made permanent either a) was CL5 or b) was CL10 and is therefore subject to a chance to fail (1d20+5 vs DC10+1). He'd have to buy the scroll since See Invisibility is personal. The cost is also incorrect: See Invisibility from a scroll would cost (2 (SL) x 5 (CL) x 25gp = 250gp or 500gp for CL10) Permanency cast at CL10 by spellcasting services is (5 (SL) x 10 (CL) x 10 + 1000xp*5gp/xp = 500gp+5000gp = 5500gp.
Macbrea 02-21-07, 01:27 PM	Are we ignoring the following quote at the bottom of the spellcasting services chart? 1. See spell description for additional costs. If the additional costs put the spell’s total cost above 3,000 gp, that spell is not generally available.
TelinArtho 02-21-07, 01:36 PM	I would assume so - but I suppose that's another thing to address.
Tellish_of_Ket 02-21-07, 01:47 PM	Just looking over Jur some more and I noticed another questionable thing: Permanent See Invisibility (CL10) Now - he does have the Magic domain, but his CL is only 5 for that - which means the see invisibility that was made permanent either a) was CL5 or b) was CL10 and is therefore subject to a chance to fail (1d20+5 vs DC10+1). He'd have to buy the scroll since See Invisibility is personal. The cost is also incorrect: See Invisibility from a scroll would cost (2 (SL) x 5 (CL) x 25gp = 250gp or 500gp for CL10) Permanency cast at CL10 by spellcasting services is (5 (SL) x 10 (CL) x 10 + 1000xp*5gp/xp = 500gp+5000gp = 5500gp. Yes, i meant to change that after i changed some stuff about the character around, where at one time, the price was accurate. That is no longer the case, so i'll change it. Tellish
Maraxus 02-21-07, 02:20 PM	I've asked before: Any willing pitlord for a Miniquest here? Durin, ECL 5, wants to join Warminds and become neutral good? PS: A simple Monster-fight-style Miniquest would be okay, too, I guess. Do I have to find a questlord within the next 40 minutes, btw?
hogarth 02-21-07, 02:23 PM	Do I have to find a questlord within the next 40 minutes, btw? You can get a randomly assigned miniquestlord if you leave it unspecified. That's assuming that we don't have a State of Emergency, of course.
Tellish_of_Ket 02-21-07, 02:30 PM	Do I have to find a questlord within the next 40 minutes, btw? I'll volunteer for your MQ Maraxus. Tellish
TelinArtho 02-21-07, 03:01 PM	I think I need to start thinking about a combined custom item for skill boni. The two skills I need boosts in are knowledge and diplomacy - which would both fall under the hat/helmet/headband designation as far as I can tell. Assuming that, and a +5 bonus to Diplomacy and a +2 to Knowledge (the planes), check my math: 5*5*100 = 2500gp for diplomacy 2*2*100 = 400gp for knowledge (the planes) 2500 + 400*1.5 = 3100gp. Crafted for 1550gp 5 credits for each custom item and another 10 for the combined item, to be 20 credits altogether?
hogarth 02-21-07, 03:03 PM	I think I need to start thinking about a combined custom item for skill boni. The two skills I need boosts in are knowledge and diplomacy - which would both fall under the hat/helmet/headband designation as far as I can tell. People often use the "allies" affinity of the fairly useless bracelet/bracers slot for Diplomacy. YMMV. I think your math is wrong, though. Having multiple different abilities multiplies the higher cost by 2, doesn't it? You'd be better off with an uncustomary slot or slotless Knowledge item in that case.
TelinArtho 02-21-07, 03:04 PM	A valid point... you just saved me ~200gp and 10 credits :) Thanks.
SauroGrenom 02-21-07, 03:20 PM	I'll volunteer for your MQ Maraxus. Tellish I guess that means you're back full throttle.
hogarth 02-21-07, 03:35 PM	Dorjes use the power trigger activation method, so manifesting a power from a dorje is usually a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the power being manifested has a manifesting time longer than 1 standard action, however, it takes that long to manifest the power from a dorje.) The user must have the power on his class list, even if he knows the command thought. Additionally, to activate a dorje, a character must hold it in hand and point it in the general direction of the target or area to be affected. (Emphasis mine.) Now given those requirements, which of the following familiars would you say is capable of using a dorje (via Use Psionic Device): a bat? a cat? a hawk? a lizard? a owl? a rat? a raven? a tiny viper? a toad? a weasel? a psicrystal? Which of the above would be able to use a power stone (which doesn't require hands or aiming as far as I can tell)?
TelinArtho 02-21-07, 03:42 PM	Probably none of them to be honest. None would have the fine motor skills to be able to manipulate and point the object in my opinion. For the power stone, assuming it wasn't a power that required pointing or otherwise aiming, I think merely touching it would be enough. This is certainly a can of worms though...
SauroGrenom 02-21-07, 03:45 PM	We've generally followed the Rules of the Game article about what animals can use. That generally means that they cannot use weapons or weapon like objects (wands) with their claws. There may be different examples, but as Telin says, this is a can of worms.
hogarth 02-21-07, 03:47 PM	Probably none of them to be honest. None would have the fine motor skills to be able to manipulate and point the object in my opinion. This is certainly a can of worms though... I'd say the hawk and owl might be able to manage it. Certainly they'd be able to hold one -- pointing it is a different matter. Wasn't NiQil thinking about training a non-magical eagle to dive-bomb with flasks of holy water? This seems more plausible than that, to me! We've generally followed the Rules of the Game article about what animals can use. That generally means that they cannot use weapons or weapon like objects (wands) with their claws. Note that I'm talking about intelligent magical beasts, not animals.
MindWandererB 02-21-07, 04:06 PM	Wasn't NiQil thinking about training a non-magical eagle to dive-bomb with flasks of holy water? This seems more plausible than that, to me!I disagree. Dropping an object is a lot easier than pointing it. I could imagine a bird pointing a wand only by flying overhead, gripping it by the base, and letting the tip droop. Not really the same thing.
hogarth 02-21-07, 04:12 PM	I disagree. Dropping an object is a lot easier than pointing it. I could imagine a bird pointing a wand only by flying overhead, gripping it by the base, and letting the tip droop. Not really the same thing. It doesn't have to point the wand straight ahead; it could point it sideways, I imagine. Note that it just has to be pointing in the "general direction" of the target according to the rules. At any rate, if three Elders are having misgivings, I'll have to stick with having Reg's menagerie use custom items instead of dorjes. No great loss.
Tellish_of_Ket 02-21-07, 04:14 PM	Ya, this issue gets addressed every few months and it came under serious scrutiny when someone made an owl-PC. Not a lycan, but a real owl. It led to many heated debates about it. Tellish
McJarvis 02-21-07, 04:15 PM	One of my longterm-goals with Artificer is to have a raven familiar & levels in Loremaster(Use Magic Device!) so that the raven can activate wands while Art does other things. Is the above discussion essentially saying my plans are in vain? :(
SauroGrenom 02-21-07, 04:16 PM	Please remind me... What's the story with getting a cohort? It's a MQ right, or is it a full 3 week quest? I cannot recall.
Tellish_of_Ket 02-21-07, 04:23 PM	Please remind me... What's the story with getting a cohort? It's a MQ right, or is it a full 3 week quest? I cannot recall. Leadership Allies (Cohorts): The Leadership feat is one of the most common ways to get a cohort. You need to go on a quest to find your Leadership cohort. Tellish
hogarth 02-21-07, 04:25 PM	Yes, but it also says: Why MiniQuests? Two reasons. Not everyone wants to pitlord fights or audit characters to gain credits but that would also mean he could never obtain an animal companion, or take the leadership feat.
MindWandererB 02-21-07, 04:26 PM	Please remind me... What's the story with getting a cohort? It's a MQ right, or is it a full 3 week quest? I cannot recall. Correction: the language about getting allies usually says "quest," but MQs can always be used. You should always be able to develop a character fully without spending credits.
Zevox 02-21-07, 05:00 PM	Basically, the only thing that requires a full quest is questing to add a template. Thats it - anything else you can do an MQ for if you prefer. Edit: Oh, and since I notice we're on a similar issue, I may as well ask this: I've been planning out my advancement for Mithos Durrol of late, including his far-future leadership Cohort, a Pegasus Psychic Warrior. When I statted the thing though, I ran into an interesting problem: could he use Powerstones? It'll take until Mithos is ECL 11 before he can do one of the chief things I want him to do on his own, so using those is something I'll want to do if I can. Would simply touching the stone (i.e. with a Hoof) work? Holding it in its mouth? Something else? Zevox
hogarth 02-21-07, 05:08 PM	When I statted the thing though, I ran into an interesting problem: could he use Powerstones? It'll take until Mithos is ECL 11 before he can do one of the chief things I want him to do on his own, so using those is something I'll want to do if I can. Would simply touching the stone (i.e. with a Hoof) work? Holding it in its mouth? Something else? We're in the middle of that exact discussion, so feel to throw in your opinion! :D I would say holding it in your mouth would be O.K. I was wondering the same thing in the past in case Kilpquabjeg ever changed into a carrion crawler.
MindWandererB 02-21-07, 05:14 PM	Ironically, Maya will be doing something very similar--a giant eagle psychic warrior. My appendages are better than your appendages! Nyah, nyah, nyah nyah, nyah! :tie:
TelinArtho 02-21-07, 05:16 PM	The best quote I can work with from the SRD is as follows: Spells: Sometimes a creature can cast arcane or divine spells just as a member of a spellcasting class can (and can activate magic items accordingly). Such creatures are subject to the same spellcasting rules that characters are, except as follows. A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body. Such a creature also does need material components for its spells. The creature can cast the spell by either touching the required component (but not if the component is in another creature’s possession) or having the required component on its person. Sometimes spellcasting creatures utilize the Eschew Materials feat to avoid fussing with noncostly components. A spellcasting creature is not actually a member of a class unless its entry says so, and it does not gain any class abilities. A creature with access to cleric spells must prepare them in the normal manner and receives domain spells if noted, but it does not receive domain granted powers unless it has at least one level in the cleric class. From the above, I would say merely touching the powerstone might be enough, but it is certainly a debatable point.
False_Keraptis 02-21-07, 05:41 PM	Hmm... Critters using magic items, eh? I've been kicking around the idea of a character with a wand-slinging UMD imp familiar for a tt game for a while. I've got to say, though, I can't see any of the normal familiar types using scrolls or wands. Powerstones, on the other hand, make perfect sense, but I still dislike the idea. Psionics get too many little edges over magic as it is, in my view. Just thought I'd toss in my two cents.
McJarvis 02-21-07, 05:53 PM	I can't see any of the normal familiar types using scrolls or wands. I could certainly see a Raven using a wand of magic missiles. Though, on the other hand, I couldn't see one using a wand of scorching ray.
Zevox 02-21-07, 06:23 PM	Ironically, Maya will be doing something very similar--a giant eagle psychic warrior. My appendages are better than your appendages! Nyah, nyah, nyah nyah, nyah! :tie: For 50% faster fly speed and better stat bonuses, I'll take those hooves over your talons any day :P . Hmm... Critters using magic items, eh? I've been kicking around the idea of a character with a wand-slinging UMD imp familiar for a tt game for a while. If you used UMD to get it to use that, it could certainly work. The problem with familiars using either is that since they can never have class levels, they need UMD or UPD to use any such items. In theory an Imp (or Quasit, or Mephit, etc) could work with that though; but since Wizards have UMD as a cross-class skill and Imps and the like come with low charisma, it'd be tough for a while. I could certainly see a Raven using a wand of magic missiles. I can't. Talons just don't allow for fine enough manipulation for aiming something like that IMO. Especially when the wand is probably close to the size of the bird to begin with. Anyway, my take on it is much like Hogarths - in the case of psicrystals, holding it at least in one's mouth should be enough at least for non-targeted powers (buffs like Force Screen, for instance). Once you get to things that need to be aimed it becomes debatable though in my opinion. Zevox
McJarvis 02-21-07, 06:25 PM	I can't. Talons like that just aren't fine enough for aiming something like that IMO. Especially when the wand is probably close to the size of the bird to begin with. Are there not small wands appropriate for smaller creatures? For instance-> a Nixie Sorcerer with compression permenantly manifested on himself.(somehow) As far as aiming goes-> with Magic missile it doesn't exactly take precision. I couldn't see the raven doing anything requiring a ranged touch attack...but auto-hit?
Zevox 02-21-07, 06:40 PM	As far as aiming goes-> with Magic missile it doesn't exactly take precision. I couldn't see the raven doing anything requiring a ranged touch attack...but auto-hit? Even with the auto-hit, MM is still a targeted spell. You need to aim it at something for it to know what to hit, in other words. So it still requires aiming, and my opinion is those Talons aren't fine enough at manipulation for that. *shrugs* Zevox
sonofzeal 02-21-07, 06:47 PM	Even with the auto-hit, MM is still a targeted spell. You need to aim it at something for it to know what to hit, in other words. So it still requires aiming, and my opinion is those Talons aren't fine enough at manipulation for that. *shrugs* Zevox If it was a matter of physically aiming the wand at the target, it should be a ranged touch attack. The fact that it's auto-hit strongly implies that it's guided by the will of the caster, so the question (IMO) is not "can an eagle point the wand", it's "can an eagle form sufficient intent?"
hogarth 02-21-07, 06:48 PM	Even with the auto-hit, MM is still a targeted spell. You need to aim it at something for it to know what to hit, in other words. So it still requires aiming, and my opinion is those Talons aren't fine enough at manipulation for that. *shrugs* The exact words for wands and dorjes is that you have to have it pointing "in the general direction of the target or area". Here's a picture of a hawk pointing a stick "in the general direction" of something in front of it: http://www.sagarmatha.com/images/swainson-stick.jpg A picture's worth a thousand words, n'est-ce pas?
MindWandererB 02-21-07, 06:52 PM	For 50% faster fly speed and better stat bonuses, I'll take those hooves over your talons any day :P .Better Con, sure, but worse Dex and Wis. Plus Evasion. We'll see how it works out. @hogarth: I'm not sure that really qualifies as "pointing." Due to the position of its claws and the fact that it has to use both claws to do this, it's more holding than pointing.
hogarth 02-21-07, 07:31 PM	@hogarth: I'm not sure that really qualifies as "pointing." Due to the position of its claws and the fact that it has to use both claws to do this, it's more holding than pointing. :uh-huh: :rolleye2: :gel: :thinks: :blink: I must've failed English in high school, 'cause I'm not quite seeing the difference between "holding a stick in a certain direction" and "pointing a stick in a certain direction". Seeing is believing...except at the WandererB household, obviously.
Erithmu 02-21-07, 07:36 PM	I would go with bad camera angle and say ... umm probably not.
Zevox 02-21-07, 08:01 PM	Better Con, sure, but worse Dex and Wis. Plus Evasion. We'll see how it works out. For the extra survivability the +4 higher con brings, I'll take the mere -2 loss to those (when I'm already getting +4 dex and +2 wis anyway, it doesn't bother me). Plus he gets +2 cha too... not that that means anything other than that hes a little tougher to Ego Whip with a Psychic Warrior, but its something. And of course the speed. Love the speed. Oh, and at-will radius versions of detect good and evil. Nice bonus there. Zevox
Tellish_of_Ket 02-21-07, 08:16 PM	The speed difference is really a non-factor. If you fight spell-flyers (60'), or ground-pounders (40'), you will dominate them with manouverability. You still both lose out horrendously on the mobility scene to the phantom steed, to which at my first use in CoCo, Caterane couldn't stop laughing at me and continued to try to push stronger mounts for mounted pc's cuz it suxxors so badly. After a few fights, he wanted it banned. :P [i luv u cat] But the past is the past, and it's a reality. With respect to the eagle vs pegasus, we've had both and the eagle has consistently fared better. Not sure if it's because the player or the classes chosen. BUT on the grand scale of things, they always had tremendous difficulties vs regular pc's...regardless of their mobility. We even had a pc giant owl, who actually fared VERY well in comparison to the other animal-based pc's. Which stemmed the whole arguments about what they can/can't use. Tellish
MindWandererB 02-21-07, 08:26 PM	You still both lose out horrendously on the mobility scene to the phantom steed, to which at my first use in CoCo, Caterane couldn't stop laughing at me and continued to try to push stronger mounts for mounted pc's cuz it suxxors so badly. After a few fights, he wanted it banned. :P [i luv u cat] But the past is the past, and it's a reality. The Phantom Steed is kind of a glass cannon, though. Against a smart player who kills the Steed on sight, the wizard loses pretty often. Otherwise, yeah, it's pretty crazy.
Zevox 02-21-07, 08:28 PM	The speed difference is really a non-factor. If you fight spell-flyers (60'), or ground-pounders (40'), you will dominate them with manouverability. Actually, with spell flight having good maneuverability and the Eagle having only 20ft on it in speed with average maneuverability, I think you might to run into problems there. But then again those with spell flight are not often those who want to get into melee anyway, so it may never come up. You still both lose out horrendously on the mobility scene to the phantom steed, to which at my first use in CoCo, Caterane couldn't stop laughing at me and continued to try to push stronger mounts for mounted pc's cuz it suxxors so badly. After a few fights, he wanted it banned. :P [i luv u cat] But the past is the past, and it's a reality. Yeah, I've seen that thing used (see Va'ria Theladrais). Terrifying speed. But given its fragility and the fact that in my case Mithos is a melee-oriented Eldritch Knight, I'd rather have the Pegasus Psychic Warrior. Spell bombing from a distance will be all well and good as time goes on, but hes still not totally focused on those anyway, and the Pegasus can contribute quite a lot to damaging my foes, unlike the Phantom Steed. In any event the steed would take a spell slot I don't want to give up (Sorcerer) or cost an awful lot in scrolls. Zevox
Vathelokai 02-21-07, 08:28 PM	I would go with bad camera angle and say ... umm probably not. Actually, birds have been seen in recent studies to be tool users, and even use branches as 'beak extenders' when fighting other birds. I can hunt down the reference if you like. But to the real point; does it do that in CoCo? Ermmm... I'd allow it, but I'm loose with the rules like that.
Vathelokai 02-21-07, 08:30 PM	Actually, with spell flight having good maneuverability and the Eagle having only 20ft on it in speed with average maneuverability, I think you might to run into problems there. Ha; just ask Raskos how much manuverability matters...:D
Tellish_of_Ket 02-21-07, 08:41 PM	The Phantom Steed is kind of a glass cannon, though. Against a smart player who kills the Steed on sight, the wizard loses pretty often. Otherwise, yeah, it's pretty crazy. That was actually the problem. Here's a piece of a fight (links no longer available, so it's from memory). Prebuff: Phantom steed mage armor on phantom steed rd 1: I moved to within 40' of my opponent, made my conc check. With rod of empower in hand, blasted opponent with enervation...walked back to my own starting square. rd 2: move, mount survives attack (weakend opp), empowered enervation...player dies. I know the general thought of the phantom steed as a glass cannon, and i can say with 100% certain (in the time i was here), i've never seen a single-classed wiz lose with phantom steed and only ever saw it die once. But, i can see there are many good builds out there right now with all the new rules and expanded SRD and stuff. It would make it tougher, but wether it lives or dies would not be the be-all/end-all of a wiz career. Just my two copper though. ...but I'm loose... Ya, i heard that about you. lol Tellish
McJarvis 02-21-07, 09:27 PM	Is a Spiritual Weapon considered a melee weapon, ranged weapon, or merely a spell? Specifically for the purposes of attacking a prone opponent & how being prone affects the opponent's AC, as well as having cover from an opponent...and in what cases the spiritual weapon still suffers from the cover bonus to AC. (Or does it change depending on what sort of weapon is being summoned?) edit-> I would be inclined to think the answer to this question depends on whether the caster of the spell is in melee range with you or not. Take that with a grain of salt, though.
McJarvis 02-21-07, 09:51 PM	Also-> Q: Can you share spells/powers with a familiar/animal companion/psicrystal that are cast/manifested from a scroll/powerstone? A: Yes. You and your animal companion/familiar/psicrystal can share effects from magic items only if the effect is a spell/power that you can target on yourself. I thought we couldn't share-cast spells from scrolls with familiars/animal companions?
NiQil 02-21-07, 09:56 PM	Also-> I thought we couldn't share-cast spells from scrolls with familiars/animal companions? This was changed in a recent FAQ ruling.
MindWandererB 02-22-07, 12:27 AM	Is a Spiritual Weapon considered a melee weapon, ranged weapon, or merely a spell? Specifically for the purposes of attacking a prone opponent & how being prone affects the opponent's AC, as well as having cover from an opponent...and in what cases the spiritual weapon still suffers from the cover bonus to AC. (Or does it change depending on what sort of weapon is being summoned?) edit-> I would be inclined to think the answer to this question depends on whether the caster of the spell is in melee range with you or not. Take that with a grain of salt, though. My opinion is that it is a melee weapon for this purpose. It moves with its target, so it is unaffected by cover (although breaking LOS causes it to return).
Tellish_of_Ket 02-22-07, 01:27 AM	Hey... I need a link to the Pitlords Template. I can't seem to access the Battles Thread but for some reason i can follow links there. Can someone link it up plz? thx. Tellish
Erithmu 02-22-07, 01:29 AM	As was mentioned above: The battles thread is wonky ... if you reduce the posts per page to under 30, it normally works fine.
Tellish_of_Ket 02-22-07, 01:32 AM	Done...it works. But maybe i'm not looking in the right area. Ok...lol So, where is the Pitlord's Template? Tellish
Rauul 02-22-07, 03:01 AM	Got a Question... Can a Charater Start out with 1 attack and 1 defence Skill Packages.. and if they do.. can they use them both in a fight.. Example..A charater has Ambush and outmanuver, Basicly setting up the Battle field.. Can he use boths skill packages?
MindWandererB 02-22-07, 03:06 AM	Got a Question... Can a Charater Start out with 1 attack and 1 defence Skill Packages.. and if they do.. can they use them both in a fight.. Example..A charater has Ambush and outmanuver, Basicly setting up the Battle field.. Can he use boths skill packages? I've never seen it happen, but there seems to be no reason why not.
Abyssal Stalker 02-22-07, 03:20 AM	A dumb question: What was the standard ability array?
MindWandererB 02-22-07, 03:27 AM	A dumb question: What was the standard ability array? The standard "array" is all 10's and 11's. What do you need them for?
Abyssal Stalker 02-22-07, 03:28 AM	For a NPC opponent.
MindWandererB 02-22-07, 03:31 AM	For a NPC opponent. For random "monster" NPCs, you use the elite array if they have PC classes, and the nonelite array if they have NPC classes only.
Zevox 02-22-07, 03:47 AM	Got a Question... Can a Charater Start out with 1 attack and 1 defence Skill Packages.. and if they do.. can they use them both in a fight.. Example..A charater has Ambush and outmanuver, Basicly setting up the Battle field.. Can he use boths skill packages? You couldn't use them in the same fight, no. An attacker package like Ambush only works when you're the attack (the first character in the pairing, e.g. Istima in "Istima Telarc (Zevox) vs Valen Sky (Hirumajoe)"), and a defense package only when you're the defender (second character in the pairing). It would be a good way to make sure you always get to use a skill package, though. Its just very costly in skill points. Zevox
McJarvis 02-22-07, 06:41 AM	My opinion is that it is a melee weapon for this purpose. It moves with its target, so it is unaffected by cover (although breaking LOS causes it to return). Is it considered to be in the target's square or in the square next to it? If it's the square next to it, I could see there being cover situations(for instance, an archer peering around a corner...only to be met with a spiritual weapon. The corner is then cover for melee purposes)
hogarth 02-22-07, 06:58 AM	Is it considered to be in the target's square or in the square next to it? If it's the square next to it, I could see there being cover situations(for instance, an archer peering around a corner...only to be met with a spiritual weapon. The corner is then cover for melee purposes) It moves next to your opponent and it always strikes from your direction. So I would say that cover could apply.
Abyssal Stalker 02-22-07, 07:07 AM	It moves next to your opponent and it always strikes from your direction. So I would say that cover could apply. On the other hand it is beyond normal rules for combat: it has unlimited movement within spell range. It strikes as a spell (whatever that means). It can strike incorporeal creatures. More important, it doesn't provide any flanking bonus.
McJarvis 02-22-07, 08:08 AM	Since no immediate answer is forthcoming, I'm just going to post this on the elder's thread real quick...I need(want) to know the answer before I write my tactics for Arty this week. I should probably know better. Last time I faced off against Falsey he tried to take my animal companion hostage just because I mentioned I wanted it alive for the rest of the 3FC in a PM I sent him ;)
McJarvis 02-22-07, 10:06 AM	Yet another question-> If a character is under the effects of dominate person & someone else casts Protection from Evil on him, does the dominate person spell become immediately suppressed for the duration of protection from evil?
hogarth 02-22-07, 10:12 AM	Yet another question-> If a character is under the effects of dominate person & someone else casts Protection from Evil on him, does the dominate person spell become immediately suppressed for the duration of protection from evil? Yes. It blocks the "attempt to [..] exercise mental control over the creature". As noted in the spell description, it wouldn't expel a possessing creature, though.
Horatius 02-22-07, 11:36 AM	Why are all the old/high level characters frozen?
hogarth 02-22-07, 11:40 AM	Why are all the old/high level characters frozen? I think it's because there aren't enough high-level characters to make the upper level leagues worthwhile to run. You'd have to fight the same couple of gladiators over and over again. Of course, that happens even at lower levels, too.
Zevox 02-22-07, 12:11 PM	Why are all the old/high level characters frozen? Two reasons: the first the one that hogarth gave (note that in addition to their low number, many belong to players who are no longer around), and the second being the Iron Man. The leagues starting at level 10 were frozen so that we could gather enough players at that level to host that particular tournament. Zevox
MindWandererB 02-22-07, 01:30 PM	Yet another question-> If a character is under the effects of dominate person & someone else casts Protection from Evil on him, does the dominate person spell become immediately suppressed for the duration of protection from evil?Yes. It blocks the "attempt to [..] exercise mental control over the creature". As noted in the spell description, it wouldn't expel a possessing creature, though.Actually, not quite. This was in an old FAQ or something--maybe the 3.0 FAQ? If prevents the dominator from issuing any new commands, but the victim still carries out any existing commands to the best of its ability. On the other hand it is beyond normal rules for combat: it has unlimited movement within spell range. It strikes as a spell (whatever that means). It can strike incorporeal creatures. More important, it doesn't provide any flanking bonus.Yeah... well, we'll take it to the Council. You couldn't use them in the same fight, no. An attacker package like Ambush only works when you're the attack (the first character in the pairing, e.g. Istima in "Istima Telarc (Zevox) vs Valen Sky (Hirumajoe)"), and a defense package only when you're the defender (second character in the pairing). It would be a good way to make sure you always get to use a skill package, though. Its just very costly in skill points. Zevox:doh: Misread the question. If you had two attack packages or two defend packages, you could use them both.
hogarth 02-22-07, 01:36 PM	Actually, not quite. This was in an old FAQ or something--maybe the 3.0 FAQ? If prevents the dominator from issuing any new commands, but the victim still carries out any existing commands to the best of its ability. Note that the wording of the Protection from Evil spell changed from 3.0 to 3.5: Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (as by a magic jar attack) or to exercise mental control over the creature (as by a vampire’s supernatural domination ability, which works similar to dominate person). The protection does not prevent a vampire’s domination itself, but it prevents the vampire from mentally commanding the protected creature. Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect. "Suppresses the effect" seems fairly clear to me. I've been wrong before, though.
Abyssal Stalker 02-22-07, 01:45 PM	Note that the wording of the Protection from Evil spell changed from 3.0 to 3.5: "Suppresses the effect" seems fairly clear to me. I've been wrong before, though. Yes, I think it's quite clear. I think it means that as long as the Protection is up, the domination isn't working, but when it stops, then the subject return to the vampire's command.
MindWandererB 02-22-07, 01:47 PM	Note that the wording of the Protection from Evil spell changed from 3.0 to 3.5: "Suppresses the effect" seems fairly clear to me. I've been wrong before, though. I stand corrected. I didn't know that changed.
SauroGrenom 02-22-07, 02:20 PM	I need a QL for a MQ next week. For the first time in months, I'll be activating a character and using them on a non-guild related activity. My new ECL10 character needs to quest for a cohort (ECL8 cohort). I just need to get this done before the ironman tournament. So is there anyone who's interested?
Erithmu 02-22-07, 02:32 PM	I need a QL for a MQ next week. For the first time in months, I'll be activating a character and using them on a non-guild related activity. My new ECL10 character needs to quest for a cohort (ECL8 cohort). I just need to get this done before the ironman tournament. So is there anyone who's interested? Sure ... PM me info
Zevox 02-22-07, 03:30 PM	Okay then, now that I have the necessary credits, I'm about ready to start up the rebuilt Arden Tarmik. But before I do, anyone care to give him the old once-over for rules correctness? Suggestions would be welcome too. Basic idea is unchanged - warmind using wilder abilities, especially Wild Surge. Next level my plan is that he takes his second fighter level, gaining Psionic Meditation and Improved Disarm. From there, Warmind. Sometime along the way I'll save up for Boots of Flying so he can get into melee with just about anyone without needing a mount (hes going to be totally ally-less), and boots of skating and armor of quickness is also in the plan so his land speed is quite high too. He'll also try to use minimal expendables - force screen will be one of his warmind powers, and the boots of skating will remove the need for those powerstones. Most expendables will just be rare-use ones, like stones of touchsight and synsthete. Zevox
Hirumajoe 02-22-07, 04:04 PM	Okay then, now that I have the necessary credits, I'm about ready to start up the rebuilt Arden Tarmik. But before I do, anyone care to give him the old once-over for rules correctness? Suggestions would be welcome too. Basic idea is unchanged - warmind using wilder abilities, especially Wild Surge. Next level my plan is that he takes his second fighter level, gaining Psionic Meditation and Improved Disarm. From there, Warmind. Sometime along the way I'll save up for Boots of Flying so he can get into melee with just about anyone without needing a mount (hes going to be totally ally-less), and boots of skating and armor of quickness is also in the plan so his land speed is quite high too. He'll also try to use minimal expendables - force screen will be one of his warmind powers, and the boots of skating will remove the need for those powerstones. Most expendables will just be rare-use ones, like stones of touchsight and synsthete. Zevox One feat to consider might be Deep Impact (although I suppose that would mess up your rather densely packed feat progression). Hmm... Your Guisarm and Greatsword list a MW +1 bonus to, but in your inventory that don't list as being MW, nor does the price seem right. Greatsword should be 1000+300+25 /2 = 675 gp? Similarly for the Guisarme? As far as I know, deepcrystal does not automatically count as masterwork, at least according to the SRD description. Nevermind... Edit: I'm not sure how useful Ego Whip is going to be initially. Since you've only got 7 pp per fight, thats only two shots per fight for several levels. And Warminds aren't exactly rolling in power points either. Nor is your manifester level high enough to really benefit from Wild Surging the Ego Whip. The low (for a wilder) charisma means that many people will make the saving throw, meaning its 1 or 2 charisma damage and occasional daze.
TelinArtho 02-22-07, 04:07 PM	Actually, deepcrystal takes on all of the properties of mundane crystal - of which masterwork quality is.
Hirumajoe 02-22-07, 04:12 PM	Actually, deepcrystal takes on all of the properties of mundane crystal - of which masterwork quality is. Oh really? Its not exactly obvious from the SRD description. In which case Valen is 150gp richer than I thought he was. Edit: When I mean its not obvious, I'm refering to the fact that it says munane crystal items cost as much as their masterwork counterparts. Its missing the nice obvious clause stating that items made out of X material are always considered masterwork.
hogarth 02-22-07, 04:13 PM	How much does a hippogriff trained for combat riding cost? 3,000 gp + 1,000 gp for training 3,000 gp + 1,200 gp for adding six tricks How much does a character receive for selling a trained hippogriff? 1,500 gp 2,000 gp 2,100 gp
MindWandererB 02-22-07, 04:14 PM	I need some help on a rule, for the Harbinger/Ahab fight. Now, the rules are clear with 10' reach: the reach extends diagonally, breaking the normal rule for diagonal distance. Is that true for greater reach, or just for 10' exactly? For instance, if O is an ogre with a reach weapon, can he reach X? X is 4 squares away if the diagonals count, but 30 feet away by normal rules. OO.... OO.... ...... ...... ...... .....X@hogarth: I think the way it works is that you can pay 1000 for the standard Combat Riding package, or 1200 for a nonstandard set of tricks. I have no idea if training adds to the resale value.
TelinArtho 02-22-07, 04:21 PM	If I remember correctly, they have diagrams for larger reach in the DMG (at least they did in 3.0). In fact - one player added the diagrams to his character sheet... if I remember right around Kraegin's page in the Character's thread... hold on. EDIT - I was wrong - it was right by Sir Valkin: Mrs. Buttmunch (sloisel) Now, I can't attest to whether it is completely valid or not. But according to the sheet, it was copied from the DMG...
Hirumajoe 02-22-07, 04:26 PM	I need some help on a rule, for the Harbinger/Ahab fight. Now, the rules are clear with 10' reach: the reach extends diagonally, breaking the normal rule for diagonal distance. Is that true for greater reach, or just for 10' exactly? For instance, if O is an ogre with a reach weapon, can he reach X? X is 4 squares away if the diagonals count, but 30 feet away by normal rules. OO.... OO.... ...... ...... ...... .....X Hmm... My instinct is to ask, "Do you have left over reach to get into that square?". With a 10' reach, I would presume you can reach into the second diagonal because you have 5' more left over after the first square. I.e. 5' then 5' goes halfway through the second square. So in the case of 4 diagonals, you have 5', 10', 5', 10'. An Ogre with a reach weapon goes to 20'. Thats not enough to "reach into" the last square. So I'm guessing that he doesn't. If you somehow had a 25' reach, I would guess that you could get into that last square. Edit: Too slow.
Erithmu 02-22-07, 04:29 PM	Okay then, now that I have the necessary credits, I'm about ready to start up the rebuilt Arden Tarmik. But before I do, anyone care to give him the old once-over for rules correctness? Suggestions would be welcome too. Basic idea is unchanged - warmind using wilder abilities, especially Wild Surge. Next level my plan is that he takes his second fighter level, gaining Psionic Meditation and Improved Disarm. From there, Warmind. Sometime along the way I'll save up for Boots of Flying so he can get into melee with just about anyone without needing a mount (hes going to be totally ally-less), and boots of skating and armor of quickness is also in the plan so his land speed is quite high too. He'll also try to use minimal expendables - force screen will be one of his warmind powers, and the boots of skating will remove the need for those powerstones. Most expendables will just be rare-use ones, like stones of touchsight and synsthete. ZevoxK(history) ranks would probably be recommended. (Warmind Prereq) Not sure I would take a power that gives a saving throw with that low of a DC. I mean even most fighters will make a DC 13, If you take another wilder level or +1 manifester PrC then you can augment for the 2d4, but I would look at a different power. Grease, Crystal Shard, or something but I don't think the saving throw on Ego Whip will be enough to actually be useful. Maybe something to slow your opponent down even more ... Pick up disapating touch and get a powerstoring weapon later on. I dunno just some options.
MindWandererB 02-22-07, 04:30 PM	I think it's in the 3.5 DMG only; it's not in my 3.0 one that I can find. Judging from those diagrams, it looks like only the first corner is a freebie. Everything after that uses the normal distance rules. Thanks, Telin!
TelinArtho 02-22-07, 04:33 PM	No problem - one of those freak things that I ran across after I updated Sir Valkin one time and it just stuck in my mind...
MindWandererB 02-22-07, 05:17 PM	New FAQ up. However, not a single item deals with core material. Lots about PHB II, mostly. Oh, and while I'm here: where the heck was the rule about whether you need LOS or be within range to concentrate on a spell? I think I remember we concluded that you need LOS but not range, but I can't remember the reason. Edit: Found it, for psionics, at least (which is what I need): "If a target moves out of range, the power reacts as if your concentration had been broken."
hogarth 02-22-07, 05:25 PM	Oh, and while I'm here: where the heck was the rule about whether you need LOS or be within range to concentrate on a spell? I think I remember we concluded that you need LOS but not range, but I can't remember the reason. Certainly a spell's effect cannot occur outside of its range (exception: conjuration spells). I don't see anything about line-of-sight, though. A spell’s range indicates how far from you it can reach, as defined in the Range entry of the spell description. A spell’s range is the maximum distance from you that the spell’s effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell’s point of origin. If any portion of the spell’s area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted.
McJarvis 02-22-07, 07:54 PM	Guild question: LOY needs to fully staff it's Papermill & only needs 10 more staff to do it! We can process 750 REC PTS per week, though...so only hiring 10 staff would be a bit strange. Can we hire 30, use 10 for the Papermill, and put the remaining 20 on ice until we need them?
MindWandererB 02-22-07, 08:13 PM	Yes, you could have 20 staff sitting around doing nothing. Or you could use the PTS to hire expert staff, or regiments, or whatever, as long as it's all "[RECRUIT] => Hire NPCs." Bear in mind that inactive staff has an upkeep cost.
McJarvis 02-22-07, 08:38 PM	Yes, you could have 20 staff sitting around doing nothing. Or you could use the PTS to hire expert staff, or regiments, or whatever, as long as it's all "[RECRUIT] => Hire NPCs." Bear in mind that inactive staff has an upkeep cost. Why? Active staff doesn't...
McJarvis 02-22-07, 08:56 PM	General Announcement: I HAVE A DOUBLES COBALT FLUX!!!! Thank you. Cool people will know what I'm talking about
Tellish_of_Ket 02-22-07, 09:47 PM	Cool ppl? Uh, i think you mean geeky extremist elite cool ppl. Tellish
McJarvis 02-22-07, 09:48 PM	There's nothing geeky about it. ;) And I'm not that extreme(I get killed at arcades), I just needed something to be able to do 8->9 footers on doubles mode with. :D I'm soooo excccciittted..... :-) PS-> Did I say welcome back to the forums? Welcome back to the forums. I remember you from way back when I first came to CoCo.(which was before most of these old geezers were around, sans Cat)
NiQil 02-22-07, 10:20 PM	Got bored home sick today, so built some new toys. For your critiquing pleasure, I present: Caspian the Cutlass - Blade of the Air Kronos the Knife - Blade of the Earth Methos the Machete - Blade of the Fire Silas the Sabre - Blade of the Water
MindWandererB 02-22-07, 10:25 PM	Why? Active staff doesn't... The upkeep of the staff is subsumed into the upkeep of the structure. Why an unstaffed structure has the same upkeep as a staffed one, I don't know. Negligence fee?
Tellish_of_Ket 02-22-07, 10:41 PM	Got bored home sick today, so built some new toys. For your critiquing pleasure, I present: Caspian the Cutlass - Blade of the Air Kronos the Knife - Blade of the Earth Methos the Machete - Blade of the Fire Silas the Sabre - Blade of the Water Bad news for Methos. With no ranks in hide/ms, or spot/listen, you will never get close to an opponent and have no real way to manage ranged attack specialists either. You may be saving a lot of money crafting all those weapons, but i'd rather have a few extra bucks spent and be able to spot or hide from my opponent. I can't see anything but bad things happening to him. The others may have a future, dependent upon tactics and how you chose to progress them.
Tellish_of_Ket 02-22-07, 10:44 PM	PS-> Did I say welcome back to the forums? Welcome back to the forums. I remember you from way back when I first came to CoCo.(which was before most of these old geezers were around, sans Cat) Thx, Cat and I started in the same week, which was a few months into the Gladiator Arena's conception. So we are the oldest geezers here. I'm prolly the oldest age wise at 38. Tellish
MindWandererB 02-22-07, 10:45 PM	Actually, I think Methos might be okay. Rapid Shot will be a problem, but he's a competent archer and has Deflect Arrows for everyone else (although I'd recommend packing another bundle of arrows). I have to wonder what Run is for, but I'm sure there's a plan there. By "okay," I mean "no worse than any other non-Grapple monk." They tend not to be the most successful of characters.
NiQil 02-22-07, 10:52 PM	Run for all of them is because they are all Dex based. I'm trying to eliminate as many situations as possible where they will lose Dex to AC. I tend to write running into my tactics a lot, so that will help there. Level 6 feats will be distributed to the appropriate builds (Natural spell for Kronos, INA for Methos, etc), but level 9 will probably be Blind Fight, so as to help against invisible attackers. These builds are ones I don't expect to be successful...they are more a role-playing concept than any optimization. You'll notice that they all have expendables, which I never do. They will all be getting monk's belts at some point, to take advantage of all that Wisdom. They are just full of things that I thought would be interesting to tinker with.
Zevox 02-22-07, 11:10 PM	One feat to consider might be Deep Impact (although I suppose that would mess up your rather densely packed feat progression). Edit: I'm not sure how useful Ego Whip is going to be initially. Since you've only got 7 pp per fight, thats only two shots per fight for several levels. And Warminds aren't exactly rolling in power points either. Nor is your manifester level high enough to really benefit from Wild Surging the Ego Whip. The low (for a wilder) charisma means that many people will make the saving throw, meaning its 1 or 2 charisma damage and occasional daze. Deep Impact: It might be worth grabbing, but yeah, my feat selection is densely packed. I've already told you the level 6 feats, but I've got more planned - level 9 is Empower Power (using Wild Surge and Psionic Meditation its essentially free, and goes nicely with Dissolving Weapon [which he gets at level 10]), and at level 12 he takes Expanded Knowledge (Energy Missile), which goes wonderfully with Empower Power too. Level 15 I've been figuring would be Greater Psionic Weapon. Since I've not planned for beyond level 16 (when he takes his 10th Warmind level), maybe I'll pick it up then. Ego Whip: Aye, its one I'm hesitant about too. Early on it'll only really be used if he has an excess of power points in fight 2 or 3, but I figured later on it would be of use. Certainly the low DC is a problem though... I've been considering swapping it for Crystal Shard. Shorter range, but very useful damaging power until he gets EK: EM (and another one to use Empower Power on it). Think that might be worth it? K(history) ranks would probably be recommended. (Warmind Prereq) Not sure I would take a power that gives a saving throw with that low of a DC. I mean even most fighters will make a DC 13, If you take another wilder level or +1 manifester PrC then you can augment for the 2d4, but I would look at a different power. Grease, Crystal Shard, or something but I don't think the saving throw on Ego Whip will be enough to actually be useful. Maybe something to slow your opponent down even more ... Pick up disapating touch and get a powerstoring weapon later on. Know (History) is where all of his Fighter ranks next level are going. Only requires 2, which is exactly what he can get with that level, and with the Craft skills filled out he has no other real use for the Fighter ranks anyway. Yeah, like what I said above, Ego Whip is a doubtful one. Perhaps the Crystal Shard switch is a good idea. Dissipating Touch + Powerstoring eh? Interesting idea. I was figuring just using Dissolving Weapon in that would be good, but the typeless damage is appealing. The problem though is that my plan for his Warmind 1st level powers was full - Expansion and Force Screen. Warminds aren't rolling in powers... I suppose I could use Dorjes for Force Screen, but I was kinda looking forward to using Wild Surge to augment it cheap. Hm... definitely worth considering though. I've got three levels to mull it over. Zevox
False_Keraptis 02-22-07, 11:36 PM	As I ponder a possible addition to my stable of deep dwarves, I find I have a couple questions: 1) Are freely accessible wands still limited to those listed in the DMG? 2) Does the Unearthed Arcana alternate necromancer's skeletal minion count as a free ally just like a familiar or animal companion? 3) Is the Unearthed Arcana content slated to become free eventually? Thanks.
Zevox 02-22-07, 11:38 PM	1) Are freely accessible wands still limited to those listed in the DMG? Yup. 2) Does the Unearthed Arcana alternate necromancer's skeletal minion count as a free ally just like a familiar or animal companion? Its a class ally that isn't leadership-like, so I don't see it wouldn't. 3) Is the Unearthed Arcana content slated to become free eventually? Not that I've ever heard. And to be frank, I'd be protesting that quite strongly if Cat announced such. Zevox
Vathelokai 02-22-07, 11:49 PM	Just a heads up to my questors and such... Real life is kicking my :censored: so things are a bit slow right now. After this weekend I should have some more free time to get things going. I havn't forgotten about you (especially you, McJarvis; am I behind or what :rolleyes: )
Tellish_of_Ket 02-22-07, 11:50 PM	Questions regarding the various "Activities" able to take place. Can an individual use multiple activities if they qualify, or only limited to one per Fight week? Example... earn money - craft:alchemy (65gp) make some alchemical weapons (acid flasks) guard home rob a store hide resources enjoy a political career outmaneuver my opponent ....and assasinate an ally. Can i do all these in one week? Or are there some specific skill packages that i cannot overlap with? Tellish
MindWandererB 02-22-07, 11:59 PM	You get only one "Free Activity" per week. That's the one that goes in your title line. As for the "Automatic," "Attack," and "Defend" abilities, those are unlimited. Edit: Oh, and you can't make money and items with the same Craft skill, ever. If it can be used to make items, it can't be used to make money.
Abyssal Stalker 02-23-07, 12:13 AM	Thx, Cat and I started in the same week, which was a few months into the Gladiator Arena's conception. So we are the oldest geezers here. I'm prolly the oldest age wise at 38. Tellish I think TheMagister is also quite...well...ancient :)
Tellish_of_Ket 02-23-07, 01:20 AM	You get only one "Free Activity" per week. That's the one that goes in your title line. As for the "Automatic," "Attack," and "Defend" abilities, those are unlimited. Edit: Oh, and you can't make money and items with the same Craft skill, ever. If it can be used to make items, it can't be used to make money. Roger Dodger. Are the skills assumed to "take 10"? Ex. Burglarizing Opponent. Rogue 3, 6 rnks in o.l./s, int+3/dex+3, +2 mw tools both = +11. vs opponent guarding (no ranks) = DC 13 Taking 10, gives me a final total of 21...meaning i now remove 17x21=375gp worth of expendables for this fight from his inventory. Or is there no "take 10" and my +11 stands alone, and i cannot rob opponent? Tellish
Zevox 02-23-07, 01:25 AM	Roger Dodger. Are the skills assumed to "take 10"? Ex. Burglarizing Opponent. Rogue 3, 6 rnks in o.l./s, int+3/dex+3, +2 mw tools both = +11. vs opponent guarding (no ranks) = DC 13 Taking 10, gives me a final total of 21...meaning i now remove 17x21=375gp worth of expendables for this fight from his inventory. Or is there no "take 10" and my +11 stands alone, and i cannot rob opponent? Tellish Generally speaking, you'll have to read the skill description in the rules thread to determine what takes 10 and what doesn't. In the case of Burglary like you said, no, you do not take 10 - you simply compare your Open Locks modifier to their DC 5+level (+5 if they guard), or to their Open Locks mod if its higher than that DC. On the other hand, in the case of skills that make money, the formula for how much money you make is based on taking 10. Zevox
Tellish_of_Ket 02-23-07, 01:38 AM	Generally speaking, you'll have to read the skill description in the rules thread to determine what takes 10 and what doesn't. In the case of Burglary like you said, no, you do not take 10 - you simply compare your Open Locks modifier to their DC 5+level (+5 if they guard), or to their Open Locks mod if its higher than that DC. On the other hand, in the case of skills that make money, the formula for how much money you make is based on taking 10. Zevox So, then burglary is useless if someone guards...cuz u'll never beat it. Max ranks at ecl(5)+3, +2 item, +3 stat (avg) = +13 vs Ecl(5)+5+5guarding = +15 = impossible to rob anyone. You would need a stat bonus of +6 or better. Not likely any rogue will achieve that, nor wizard seeing that it's xclass to them. One would definitely need to buy/craft custom items to even have a remote chance of robbing anyone. Tellish
SauroGrenom 02-23-07, 01:42 AM	Telin, I have a new character who's out to knock the Denthian's down a notch or two. A rival conjurer who's out to make a name for himself as the best conjurer around. After the Ironman, perhaps we can get a little RP contest going.
Tellish_of_Ket 02-23-07, 01:55 AM	Actually, now that i think of it...what does "guard" give the +5 modifer to? I believe it's Open Locks, since it's the only opposed check. If u get past that, then ur home free right? Tellish
Zevox 02-23-07, 02:00 AM	So, then burglary is useless if someone guards...cuz u'll never beat it. Max ranks at ecl(5)+3, +2 item, +3 stat (avg) = +13 vs Ecl(5)+5+5guarding = +15 = impossible to rob anyone. You would need a stat bonus of +6 or better. Not likely any rogue will achieve that, nor wizard seeing that it's xclass to them. One would definitely need to buy/craft custom items to even have a remote chance of robbing anyone. Tellish Actually, I have a Rogue with that much dex - Featylec Elendi. +6 dex really isn't that hard to obtain for a Rogue if you pick a race with a bonus to dexterity. Granted with Featylec guarding still stops him, but thats because he doesn't have Open Locks maxed out due to it being too pricey in skill points with all the non-rogue levels he has. With wizards, yes, its not happening, but the activity wasn't designed for them anyway, it was designed for Rogues. Bear in mind though that far from everyone uses the Guard free activity. Money-making skills are quite common, and some use Hide Trail to make themselves harder to get with the most common skill package (Ambush) rather than guarding, since Burglary is a very rarely used activity - I can only name three characters who have used it (Featylec, lonewolf's Chameleon, and Telin's Ilendil), and one of them is retired while the other two aren't in the arena often. Its pretty typical that the few folks that do use Burglary get to use it most of the time they try to. Zevox
Zevox 02-23-07, 02:02 AM	Actually, now that i think of it...what does "guard" give the +5 modifer to? I believe it's Open Locks, since it's the only opposed check. If u get past that, then ur home free right? Tellish No, its +5 to the DC. It used to be that guard negated Burglary outright, but it got changed to this for some random reason (I know it wasn't because of some protest from burglars, given I never saw any such thing and they're so rare to begin with). Zevox
Tellish_of_Ket 02-23-07, 02:09 AM	No, its +5 to the DC. It used to be that guard negated Burglary outright, but it got changed to this for some random reason (I know it wasn't because of some protest from burglars, given I never saw any such thing and they're so rare to begin with). Zevox Ya, +5 to the OL DC, i would gather. Actually, after i figured it was opposed strictly by the OL modifier alone, i knew it was easily possible to burglarize anyone. In fact a guy i'm working on now, at ECL 3, with only 5 ranks, has +20. He's not likely to be stopped by anyone anytime soon. Tellish
MindWandererB 02-23-07, 02:11 AM	Hum. When did that even change? Not like it really matters much, burglars being so rare, plus the only folks who ever Guard are those who have nothing better to do anyway.
Tellish_of_Ket 02-23-07, 02:14 AM	Hum. When did that even change? Not like it really matters much, burglars being so rare, plus the only folks who ever Guard are those who have nothing better to do anyway. Which brings up a good point. You can only do one of the three correct? Guard Hide Trail Move Cautious Tellish
Zevox 02-23-07, 02:23 AM	Which brings up a good point. You can only do one of the three correct? Guard Hide Trail Move Cautious Tellish Yup. They're all free activities, which you get just one of per fight. Zevox
Tellish_of_Ket 02-23-07, 04:17 AM	WOOT! I worked it out so that i can Burglarize my opponent for 255gp of expendables, assassinate one of his allies, and ambush him, all the while maintaining a squeeky clean political career. WOOT! -Tellish
Abyssal Stalker 02-23-07, 04:27 AM	Can he punch?
TelinArtho 02-23-07, 11:19 AM	Telin, I have a new character who's out to knock the Denthian's down a notch or two. A rival conjurer who's out to make a name for himself as the best conjurer around. After the Ironman, perhaps we can get a little RP contest going. Sure thing... though he doesn't seem like much of a conjurer to me... At ECL10, only having access to those "weak" SMIV spells? Also - having 5000gp worth of crafted scrolls is a bit much in my opinion... Now, if he had survived from ECL3 up to ECL10, I might be more impressed (in fact - I'd be very interested in seeing a character like that succeeding in the early levels (ECL3-6) with a decent record and still being able to maintain his income for later levels...). Kraegin is always up for some fun role-playing encounters though...
hogarth 02-23-07, 11:25 AM	Hum. When did that even change? Not like it really matters much, burglars being so rare, plus the only folks who ever Guard are those who have nothing better to do anyway. It changed somewhere around the end of September '06, back when Caterane was fiddling with the various skill uses (adding attack/defense packages, removing Forgery for allies, etc.). My characters used to have Fire Traps at home since a trap used to be a foolproof defense against burglary, but they got a refund when the rules changed.
Erithmu 02-23-07, 11:27 AM	Dissipating Touch + Powerstoring eh? Interesting idea. I was figuring just using Dissolving Weapon in that would be good, but the typeless damage is appealing. The problem though is that my plan for his Warmind 1st level powers was full - Expansion and Force Screen. Warminds aren't rolling in powers... I suppose I could use Dorjes for Force Screen, but I was kinda looking forward to using Wild Surge to augment it cheap. Hm... definitely worth considering though. I've got three levels to mull it over. Zevox I was talking about your wilder power (instead of Ego whip) ... Powerstoring has a 5pp cap, which with 3pp+2 surge is a nice kick: Weapon damage + Dissapating touch(3pp) + Dissolving weapon(3pp) ... not a bad alpha, for 6pp investment Damage: Weapon + 9d6 With the low wilder level you don't lose much if you do enervate (something that has been nice w/ Ephraim)
Erithmu 02-23-07, 11:32 AM	Got bored home sick today, so built some new toys. For your critiquing pleasure, I present: Caspian the Cutlass - Blade of the Air Kronos the Knife - Blade of the Earth Methos the Machete - Blade of the Fire Silas the Sabre - Blade of the Water *blinks* 2 full casters, and not a single full BAB class in sight ... You must be filling sick. :D Get well, and I'll be interested in how those turn out, we may turn you to the darkside yet.
Hirumajoe 02-23-07, 11:55 AM	Quick question, does anyone see any problems with changing the Survival roll for the Scouting attack skill package to explicitly saying you take 10? It just seems odd that a non-combat skill in a skill package is using a roll, while other opposed skills used essentially in a risky combat situation (such as the disguise/spot of Assassinate) are essentially taking 10 on boths sides. I'd like to propose this change (or maybe just typo correction) in the Council of Gladius thread, but if people feel this is bad idea (especially elders) I won't.
Zevox 02-23-07, 12:03 PM	I was talking about your wilder power (instead of Ego whip) ... Powerstoring has a 5pp cap, which with 3pp+2 surge is a nice kick: Weapon damage + Dissapating touch(3pp) + Dissolving weapon(3pp) ... not a bad alpha, for 6pp investment Damage: Weapon + 9d6 With the low wilder level you don't lose much if you do enervate (something that has been nice w/ Ephraim) Ah, I see. I think I'll still keep Crystal Shard for that one though - I'd like to have something before level 12 thats a ranged attack besides my bow. Still, you're right, thats a nice cheap way of getting a big alpha strike - especially when he uses wild surge for a free empower on that dissolving weapon (mathematically, that averages to the same as adding another 2d6 right there). Although he could always do like Kracknol and plop another dissolving weapon into the powerstoring weapon; but as I said, the typeless damage is tempting. I'll have to think it through. Zevox
hogarth 02-23-07, 12:04 PM	I agree that it should be disambiguated. It's not clear what it's referring to (using the base modifier ["taking 0"], rolling, or 'taking 10'). I don't know which it's supposed to be, though. Quick question, does anyone see any problems with changing the Survival roll for the Scouting attack skill package to explicitly saying you take 10?
hogarth 02-23-07, 12:07 PM	Still, you're right, thats a nice cheap way of getting a big alpha strike - especially when he uses wild surge for a free empower on that dissolving weapon (mathematically, that averages to the same as adding another 2d6 right there). Wild surge just allows you to augment a power for free; it wouldn't allow you to use an empowered dissolving weapon for 3 pp any more than it would allow you to manifest dissolving weapon for 1 pp. Maybe I'm misconstruing what you're saying above, though.
SauroGrenom 02-23-07, 01:21 PM	Sure thing... though he doesn't seem like much of a conjurer to me... At ECL10, only having access to those "weak" SMIV spells? Also - having 5000gp worth of crafted scrolls is a bit much in my opinion... Now, if he had survived from ECL3 up to ECL10, I might be more impressed (in fact - I'd be very interested in seeing a character like that succeeding in the early levels (ECL3-6) with a decent record and still being able to maintain his income for later levels...). Kraegin is always up for some fun role-playing encounters though...The character is really a Gish more than just a conjurer. I've played one trick ponies before, and they always do great when their one trick works. Not so good when that trick doesn't work. You have more experience with summoners, but as far as I can tell the options listed for SM4 aren't that different from SM5. The SM5 monsters are clearly a little better, but not tremendously better. And I picked a lot of scrolls because that makes it possible to have something to counter specific tactics w/o burning my high save dc spell lots on utility spells with no save. Raskos was similar to what this character would have been at lower levels. I started Raskos at ECL5. The phrenic template makes low level casters almost impossible, but the stat boost and defensive abilities and SR come in handy as level goes up. I had a bit of trouble keeping the wealth up on Raskos (relied on scrolls). I calculated he was about 4000gp behind by the time he hit ECL10 and I rebuilt him. His win record was barely over 50%, not bad for a character struggling through the worst levels of the build. So in all, I tried to make sure I had some kind of way to handle all the major tricks out their. Kraegin is a better summoner with the Thaumaturge levels and a higher CL. Retikos has a couple different tricks that could turn the tables in a fight. See you in the Ironman, should be fun.
TelinArtho 02-23-07, 01:48 PM	Well, SMV was one of the humps that I was very much looking forward to with Kraegin. Achaierai and Bearded Devils are hugely better than most of the available options he has for SMIV (bearing in mind his alignment restrictions for being an evil cleric). SMIV didn't really have much to offer him - I think every time he cast it, it was for 1d3 Huge Centipedes rather than for a single creature from that list. I am certainly looking forward to the Iron man competition. I still don't know how well Kraegin will do, but my hope is to make it through at least the first round...
TelinArtho 02-23-07, 02:18 PM	Here's a deliciously ambiguous line from the skeleton entry: Special Qualities: A skeleton loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks. So, if I had a character animate a cheetah - the cheetah would certainly lose its trip ability (because it is a special attack). However, would the cheetah lose its sprint ability: Trip (Ex): A cheetah that hits with a claw or bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent (+3 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the cheetah. Sprint (Ex): Once per hour, a cheetah can move ten times its normal speed (500 feet) when it makes a charge.
hogarth 02-23-07, 02:27 PM	Here's a deliciously ambiguous line from the skeleton entry: So, if I had a character animate a cheetah - the cheetah would certainly lose its trip ability (because it is a special attack). However, would the cheetah lose its sprint ability: The Sprint ability doesn't improve its melee attacks, IMO.
TelinArtho 02-23-07, 02:29 PM	Really? A 500ft charge is a vast improvement over a 100ft charge...
hogarth 02-23-07, 02:39 PM	Really? A 500ft charge is a vast improvement over a 100ft charge... It's an improvement to movement (hey, that rhymes), not specifically an improvement to melee or ranged attacks (like an ettin's superior 2-weapon fighting). Similarly, I would say an hound archon's change shape special quality doesn't qualify either (even though it might be useful in melee).
TelinArtho 02-23-07, 02:45 PM	While I might agree that it is an improvement to movement, the point that I'm honing in on is that it is a 500ft charge - as in a full round attack action... For the record - the aranea's change shape wouldn't qualify because it isn't extraordinary (its supernatural). I'm only asking because I am contemplating a cleric with animated undead and I like to plan ahead...
TelinArtho 02-23-07, 03:19 PM	Just doing a quick once-over on possible things that would apply in the case of special qualities: 1. Racial bonus to hit or damage a type of creature (Dwarf racial trait for +1 to hit Orcs and Goblinoids) 2. Racial bonus with particular kinds of weapons (Halfling thrown weapons) 3. The afore-mentioned Superior Two-weapon fighting, as well as the cloud giant's oversized weapon (and by extension, powerful build from the half-giant). [Ironically enough, if you could make a skeleton out of a titan - the titan's oversized weapon ability would not be included - since it is listed as a special attack...] Things I am not sure about: 1. Class abilities? Things like ranger-favored enemies. 2. Things like the cheetah's sprint
MindWandererB 02-23-07, 03:20 PM	Since it's specifically a charge, and not any other kind of movement, I would give it to it. This would be in contrast to, say, the squid, which cannot use its similar ability on a charge. Class abilities should never apply, except for weapon proficiencies. (It says nothing about armor, but the human warrior skeleton has a shield....)
hogarth 02-23-07, 03:25 PM	While I might agree that it is an improvement to movement, the point that I'm honing in on is that it is a 500ft charge - as in a full round attack action... For the record - the aranea's change shape wouldn't qualify because it isn't extraordinary (its supernatural). I'm only asking because I am contemplating a cleric with animated undead and I like to plan ahead... Oops...you're right about Change Shape. How about a maenad's Outburst special quality? A +2 to strength would indirectly improve a maenad's melee attacks, but I wouldn't let it be inherited by a maenad skeleton. Here's how I think of it (YMMV): The ability to move 500 ft once per hour (not just on a charge) would not be inherited by a skeleton. Thus an ability that is just a subset of this shouldn't be given, either.
hogarth 02-23-07, 03:29 PM	Just doing a quick once-over on possible things that would apply in the case of special qualities: 1. Racial bonus to hit or damage a type of creature (Dwarf racial trait for +1 to hit Orcs and Goblinoids) 2. Racial bonus with particular kinds of weapons (Halfling thrown weapons) Unfortunately, it looks like some dwarf/halfling traits are special attacks and some are special qualities -- it doesn't specify which is which in the monster listing.
TelinArtho 02-23-07, 03:44 PM	Unfortunately, it looks like some dwarf/halfling traits are special attacks and some are special qualities -- it doesn't specify which is which in the monster listing. Both of those are covered in the traits - which are specifically entered under the "Special Qualities" section of the monster listing. Oops...you're right about Change Shape. How about a maenad's Outburst special quality? A +2 to strength would indirectly improve a maenad's melee attacks, but I wouldn't let it be inherited by a maenad skeleton. Here's how I think of it (YMMV): The ability to move 500 ft once per hour (not just on a charge) would not be inherited by a skeleton. Thus an ability that is just a subset of this shouldn't be given, either. Well, the outburst is of questionable content as well, but given that it would improve the maenad's melee or ranged attacks - yes, I would allow it. As to the cheetah - it says it can only be used once an hour on a charge, what makes you think that the cheetah is allowed to do it when it isn't a charge? Anyway - if there's enough here to need a ruling before I proceed, I can go that route, I just figured I'd ask before I go create something that might get "clarified" later to remove it...
hogarth 02-23-07, 03:46 PM	Both of those are covered in the traits - which are specifically entered under the "Special Qualities" section of the monster listing. Both of those are covered in the traits - which are specifically entered under the "Special Attacks" section of the monster listing (as well). To me that implies that some traits are special attacks and some are special qualities.
TelinArtho 02-23-07, 03:55 PM	Both of those are covered in the traits - which are specifically entered under the "Special Attacks" section of the monster listing (as well). To me that implies that some traits are special attacks and some are special qualities. Heh - yeah I missed that part...
Tellish_of_Ket 02-23-07, 04:27 PM	Yah, i always wanted to make a skeleton PC, but the loss of many special abilities kind of prevented that. He would have to pretty much be a straight fighter. It's still not bad, as i'd have double the hit-dice of any opponent i'd meet (keeping in mind that their CR=their ECL)...but still. Not worth all the effort. Tellish
SauroGrenom 02-23-07, 04:42 PM	My favorite undead is the Allip. I always wanted to make a PC Allip. It's the best truly incorporeal creature I can find (Unbodied is a close second). But the issues of incorporeality and equipment have always prevented me from making the character. You'd be limited to only ghost touch weapons, ghost touch armor, ghost touch shields and tombs/manuals with permanent magical effects not tied to an item you carry. That's a hefty limitation that forces you to be basically only a warrior build.
Zevox 02-23-07, 04:57 PM	Wild surge just allows you to augment a power for free; it wouldn't allow you to use an empowered dissolving weapon for 3 pp any more than it would allow you to manifest dissolving weapon for 1 pp. Maybe I'm misconstruing what you're saying above, though. Think of it this way: Say you're a level 4 Warmind with Wilder levels for Wild Surge. You have the power Dissolving Weapon and the feat Empower Power, and want to manifest an Empowered DW. Normally you cannot - your ML limits your pp per power to 4, and this one would require 5 pp total. But with Wild Surge you can exceed that. Since Wild Surge says it provides the pp for its ML increase automatically, would it not follow that in this situation using Wild Surge would pay the price of empowering? In which case, why should you not be able to do this even if you could normally pay the empower cost from memory? Zevox
hogarth 02-23-07, 05:03 PM	Think of it this way: Say you're a level 4 Warmind with Wilder levels for Wild Surge. You have the power Dissolving Weapon and the feat Empower Power, and want to manifest an Empowered DW. Normally you cannot - your ML limits your pp per power to 4, and this one would require 5 pp total. But with Wild Surge you can exceed that. Since Wild Surge says it provides the pp for its ML increase automatically, would it not follow that in this situation using Wild Surge would pay the price of empowering? In which case, why should you not be able to do this even if you could normally pay the empower cost from memory? The description just doesn't support that usage, though. A wild surge doesn't give you extra power points to use towards whatever you want, only towards "augmenting [your] powers to a higher degree than [you] otherwise could". Using Empower Power is not augmenting a power. EDIT: Oh, I see what you're getting at -- your manifester level would increase to 5, so you could now empower the power. That might be fine, but you still wouldn't get the 2 pp for using Empower Power for free (since those 2 pp can only go towards augmentation). A wilder can choose to invoke a wild surge whenever she manifests a power. When she does so, she gains +1 to her manifester level with that manifestation of the power. The manifester level boost gives her the ability to augment her powers to a higher degree than she otherwise could; however, she pays no extra power point for this wild surge. Instead, the additional 1 power point that would normally be required to augment the power is effectively supplied by the wild surge.
MindWandererB 02-23-07, 05:07 PM	Yeah... it specifically mentions augmentation. If you were augmenting a bit and also using metapsionics, it would work, but you can't use a wild surge and spend the "free" PP on anything other than augmentation. Also: Vath and I still haven't signed questlords for the TAO/TLT missions. Can anyone pick one of those up?
Zevox 02-23-07, 06:31 PM	Bleh. Personally, I'd interpret the use of "augmenting" there a little more liberally than that, but if thats the way it'll be, so be it. Zevox
False_Keraptis 02-23-07, 06:56 PM	I'm curious: has anybody run a cerebremancer in the coliseum? Is there one active now? I'm pondering making a deep dwarf psion with an eye toward becoming a cerebremancer. I might wait until I have some more credits to spend and choose one of the Unearthed Arcana options for the wizard levels, probably the fighter bonus feats option just for the save-improving feats. Any thoughts or suggestions? Am I foolish to go with any race but gray elf? Are the save feats no good? Am I overestimating the importance of good saves? I know in my tt games, good saves are positively vital, but my characters haven't had to make too many in the arena.
Zevox 02-23-07, 07:17 PM	I'm curious: has anybody run a cerebremancer in the coliseum? Is there one active now? "Yes" and "sort of," respectively. I can name at least two Cerebremancers we've had - Huan's Rook and Sauro's Raskos. Rook is retired, but Raskos is only inactive due to being frozen. I'm pondering making a deep dwarf psion with an eye toward becoming a cerebremancer. I might wait until I have some more credits to spend and choose one of the Unearthed Arcana options for the wizard levels, probably the fighter bonus feats option just for the save-improving feats. Any thoughts or suggestions? Am I foolish to go with any race but gray elf? Are the save feats no good? Am I overestimating the importance of good saves? I know in my tt games, good saves are positively vital, but my characters haven't had to make too many in the arena. Personally, I don't think choosing a race other than Gray Elf is a bad idea - I've got a Goblin Psion who I'd give good odds against any Gray Elf Psion or Wizard of his level. On the class variant, I think you're missing something here. The feats that give bonuses to saves aren't available as Fighter bonus feats, so this variant would not get them for you. Not to mention if you're going Cerebremancer, odds are you'll only get the level 1 bonus anyway (remember, they still only get these feats every 5 levels; they just pick from the fighter list instead of the normal wizard list). As for the feats themselves... while saves are very useful, I think the benefit of those feats is too low for the cost of a feat. With a Cerebremancer I'd much rather be taking some psionic, item creation, or metamagic/psionic feats. Things like a Cloak of Resistance can boost your saves just fine, especially if you take Craft Wondrous Item and make it yourself. Those feat slots are just too few and far between to spend on such small boosts. Zevox
sonofzeal 02-23-07, 07:18 PM	My survey (which I still haven't written up) shows a total of two levels in Cerebremancer on active characters. I don't remember if they were on the same character or not.
MindWandererB 02-23-07, 07:20 PM	SauroGrenom's Raskos is the only one I know of (Wiz3/Psi3/Cereb.2). Of course, for most of his career, he was Phrenic, which really bit him in the CL/ML butt.
Hirumajoe 02-23-07, 07:22 PM	My favorite undead is the Allip. I always wanted to make a PC Allip. It's the best truly incorporeal creature I can find (Unbodied is a close second). But the issues of incorporeality and equipment have always prevented me from making the character. You'd be limited to only ghost touch weapons, ghost touch armor, ghost touch shields and tombs/manuals with permanent magical effects not tied to an item you carry. That's a hefty limitation that forces you to be basically only a warrior build. Actually, you can apply magical effects to the armor and weapons with the "takes no slots" modifier. Have your ghost touch weapon add +2 natural armor bonus for 8000*2.0 =16,000 gp instead of getting an amulet of natural armor +2 for 8000 gp. Admittedly you're paying double for everything, but its at least better than just armor and weapons. I suppose its a bit more challenging to get djores or wands, but you probably could incorporate cognizance crystals (actually they have manifester modifiers already) or pearls of power into a weapon or armor. It'd also take *alot* of credits.
SauroGrenom 02-23-07, 07:41 PM	I'm curious: has anybody run a cerebremancer in the coliseum? Is there one active now? I'm pondering making a deep dwarf psion with an eye toward becoming a cerebremancer. I might wait until I have some more credits to spend and choose one of the Unearthed Arcana options for the wizard levels, probably the fighter bonus feats option just for the save-improving feats. Any thoughts or suggestions? Am I foolish to go with any race but gray elf? Are the save feats no good? Am I overestimating the importance of good saves? I know in my tt games, good saves are positively vital, but my characters haven't had to make too many in the arena.Raskos is the only current Cerebremancer in Gladius. His arena record isn't all that great (6wins 5losses), but his versatility and allies come in really handy in quests (where short duration prebuffs are often possible to use outside of combat). Raskos's early carrier was made very difficult by his phrenic template. I was using the phrenic template and grey elf race in an attempt to maximize INT (bonus pp and spells and high save DC's). The phrenic template gives some nice powers as well and a decent SR to boot. In all Raskos ends with the highest Int in CoCo (32), although he'll be outdone by his brother Retikos in a few levels. Grey Elf and Fire Elf (UA) are the only options for +0 LA races with a racial Intelligence bonus. The UA Elf Paragon class offers a +2 Int as well as CL increases in the wizard class for 2 of 3 levels in the racial paragon class. The main problem with a Cerebremancer is the lower CL you suffer with. This becomes a real pain in the arse in several ways. For Raskos he is 5 CL behind full casters at his level. If I didn't take the Phrenic Template it would only be 3. But even without the template that means you are casting lower level spells (lower save DC's and weaker effects) and have a harder time with SR than most full casters at your level. Also you have fewer spells or pp per fight to cast. Raskos has nearly totally maxed Int, and he casts only 10 SL/fight where other casters are tossing three or more times that at ECL10. To put a great focus on saves is a mixed bag. There are many casters around here who have great save or die spells. Vandelar comes to mind. He's got a DC27 will save on his Magic Jar spell. Raskos casts hold person at DC24. Retikos casts Stinking Cloud at DC 25. Va'ria casts feeblemind at dc 28 for casters. I think there is someone who's got a fantastic save on phantasmal killer. Cat has a wizard with an unpronounceable name that has great enchantment save dc's. Being able to survive these effects is a great way to make a character successful in the arena, but that's not enough by a long shot. When it comes down to it, you need to be able to take out your opponents not just survive their attacks. For a caster that multi-classes, doing damage can be a problem. Over focusing on saves at the exclusion of damage output can make for long but disappointing fights. Most of the characters around here have some kind of "trick". If the trick works, the character wins. If the trick doesn't work, they usually have a more uncertain backup plan. Forcing people to rely on the backup plan can be a very successful strategy. Good saves can help with that, so will SR. FYI: The feats that give a bonus to saves are not on the fighter bonus list. Besides if you are going cerebremancer, you don't get many of those feats from your wizard class anyway.
SauroGrenom 02-23-07, 07:45 PM	SauroGrenom's Raskos is the only one I know of (Wiz3/Psi3/Cereb.2). Of course, for most of his career, he was Phrenic, which really bit him in the CL/ML butt.He's still Phrenic. Yea it has it's downside, but there are advantages as well. I consider it a reasonably balanced choice. SR and a host of defensive PLA's, a few offensive ones and a few stat boosts for the cost of +2 LA.
MindWandererB 02-23-07, 07:54 PM	Sorry, I thought he lost the Phrenic after his rebuild--I didn't see the LA in his ECL line.
TheMagister 02-23-07, 10:39 PM	I think TheMagister is also quite...well...ancient :) :mad: I'm 29, thanks very much! And boyishly good-looking to boot (according to my wife). Someday I'll get around to submitting a picture of myself. Should do it sometime soon...I just got a new haircut! TM
MindWandererB 02-24-07, 12:25 AM	Question: IIRC, there's a strange rule here that you can apply multiple sets of armor spikes to one suit of armor. If that's so, if you have two sets of armor spikes on one suit of armor, can you use them both in a TWF attack?
Tellish_of_Ket 02-24-07, 01:59 AM	Question: IIRC, there's a strange rule here that you can apply multiple sets of armor spikes to one suit of armor. If that's so, if you have two sets of armor spikes on one suit of armor, can you use them both in a TWF attack? Well, if I recall, you don't need multiple armor spikes on one set of armor. You can twf with them as they are. I've seen this debate a many number of times and a few conventions and the majority concensus has always been that you can use flurry and twf with just armor spikes without the need to "double" them up. One of the better examples used to support this was "gauntlets" and "spiked gauntlets". Anyone is allowed to twf with their fists, you just suffer the regular penalties for them. Nothing stops you from that. Without IUS however, you would still suffer from AoO's. With spiked gauntlets, you are now "considered armed" and do not provoke any AoO's. So, now grab yourself the twf feats, and a pair of spiked gauntlets and you're all set to twf, without provoking AoO's or the need to invest in IUS. The very same principle applies to armor spikes. Again, notice the plural is the same with "spiked gauntlets" reference to your hands. It would actually be inconcievable to have just one SPIKE on ur armor. Armor covers your chest, legs, forearms etc...(some do, some don't, but the point is, that it's multiple parts of your body). Hence you just need to invest in ONE set of armor spikes, the feat TWF and you're set to go. Hope that makes sense. There were other references given, however, unless there are some ppl who don't think it operates this way and are vehemiently opposed, i'd have to go digging a little deeper. Tellish
Abyssal Stalker 02-24-07, 02:21 AM	:mad: I'm 29, thanks very much! And boyishly good-looking to boot (according to my wife). Someday I'll get around to submitting a picture of myself. Should do it sometime soon...I just got a new haircut! TM Sorry about that :) I may have been distracted. Damn, if 29 is ancient, I must be at least venerable with my 25... Now, I'll go take our dog out. There's a nice -14o C out there (compared to yesterday morning's -27o C)...
Rauul 02-24-07, 03:49 AM	as the Ally rules seemd to be over my head (hence the reason i have no charaters with even a light warhorse, or a guard mutt) Can someone tell me the Maximum Undead level (CR?) a Level 5 cleric can Bring in the Arena Wis17 cha 14, level 5 (i know they can with a miniquest get 18 hd of Undead at thier dispossale Caster levelx2, desecrated temple doubles that ) Also can Skeletons use Bows.. After seeing a Skeleton Nightmare Sunder quivers.. Can a Skeleton equiped with Adimentium Greatswords sunder weapons (a seperate command per item i expect) I suspect this goes with trip and bull rush also...
Rauul 02-24-07, 03:51 AM	Sorry about that :) I may have been distracted. Damn, if 29 is ancient, I must be at least venerable with my 25... Now, I'll go take our dog out. There's a nice -14o C out there (compared to yesterday morning's -27o C)... Can we not talk about ages.... as i suspect that my 41 is over the hill and quite ancient... darn whipper snappers
Tellish_of_Ket 02-24-07, 04:14 AM	as the Ally rules seemd to be over my head (hence the reason i have no charaters with even a light warhorse, or a guard mutt) Can someone tell me the Maximum Undead level (CR?) a Level 5 cleric can Bring in the Arena Wis17 cha 14, level 5 (i know they can with a miniquest get 18 hd of Undead at thier dispossale Caster levelx2, desecrated temple doubles that ) Also can Skeletons use Bows.. After seeing a Skeleton Nightmare Sunder quivers.. Can a Skeleton equiped with Adimentium Greatswords sunder weapons (a seperate command per item i expect) I suspect this goes with trip and bull rush also... 1) Max CR for your 5th Cleric is ECL-4 = CR 1 However, your MaxCA is ECL-2. Which means you can bring in three CR 1 undead. 2) Skeletons most certainly can use bows. 3) Yup, skellies can sunder. You don't have to command them to sunder each item individually. You can simply command them to "sunder all". Tellish
Macbrea 02-24-07, 08:56 AM	Can we not talk about ages.... as i suspect that my 41 is over the hill and quite ancient... darn whipper snappers Nah, your only 4!... I am still 3!
Scribelords 02-24-07, 10:27 AM	Happy Birthday to Cat! Happy Birthday to Cat! He's hit the big three - oh! (yesterday) Happy Birthday to Cat!
Hirumajoe 02-24-07, 11:50 AM	3) Yup, skellies can sunder. You don't have to command them to sunder each item individually. You can simply command them to "sunder all". Tellish Umm... The "sunder all" command would require decision making and prioritization on the part of the skeleton. It would have to choose an item to sunder first since it can't sunder all items simultaneously. You could probably get away with "Attack his sword until destroyed and then attack his dagger." Anymore than that is probably pushing it, given that skeletons don't have any form of memory and thus can't remember lists. However, as long as you can speak, which is a free action even out of intitiative order, its probably a non-issue anyways. Although, it does raise the question, how many "free action" orders can you give in a round? There's only so much you can say in 6 seconds. Edit: And happy birthday to Cat! :-)
Hirumajoe 02-24-07, 12:07 PM	In regards to the guild rules (since McJarvis asked me for help as an assistant): When it refers to a character being inactive for more than 2 months before penalties kick in, does that refer to active at all (i.e. normal arena fights, quests, etc that can be non-guild related) or only to guild related actions (i.e. CAP actions?) Thanks.
NiQil 02-24-07, 12:08 PM	Umm... The "sunder all" command would require decision making and prioritization on the part of the skeleton. It would have to choose an item to sunder first since it can't sunder all items simultaneously. You could probably get away with "Attack his sword until destroyed and then attack his dagger." Anymore than that is probably pushing it, given that skeletons don't have any form of memory and thus can't remember lists. However, as long as you can speak, which is a free action even out of intitiative order, its probably a non-issue anyways. Although, it does raise the question, how many "free action" orders can you give in a round? There's only so much you can say in 6 seconds. Edit: And happy birthday to Cat! :-) By RAW, there is no limit on the number of free actions you can take in one round. Most DM's I know house-rule that to something like 3 or 4 per round, but by RAW there is no limit.
Zevox 02-24-07, 12:46 PM	In regards to the guild rules (since McJarvis asked me for help as an assistant): When it refers to a character being inactive for more than 2 months before penalties kick in, does that refer to active at all (i.e. normal arena fights, quests, etc that can be non-guild related) or only to guild related actions (i.e. CAP actions?) Thanks. Active in anything other than full activities. Arena matches, quests, miniquest, and the like all qualify, just not spending a week crafting or teaching an animal tricks or the like. Zevox
Tellish_of_Ket 02-24-07, 01:36 PM	Umm... The "sunder all" command would require decision making and prioritization on the part of the skeleton. It would have to choose an item to sunder first since it can't sunder all items simultaneously. You could probably get away with "Attack his sword until destroyed and then attack his dagger." Anymore than that is probably pushing it, given that skeletons don't have any form of memory and thus can't remember lists. However, as long as you can speak, which is a free action even out of intitiative order, its probably a non-issue anyways. Although, it does raise the question, how many "free action" orders can you give in a round? There's only so much you can say in 6 seconds. Edit: And happy birthday to Cat! :-) Well that really depends on how you acquired ur skellies. If it's from controlling, then it's a standard action, if its created then it's free. But either way, prebuffing a controlled skelly with the order "Sunder all opponents items giving preference to weapons held" should/would/could prolly be pretty valid. Tellish
Guildmaster (TAO) 02-24-07, 03:26 PM	@MWB: TAO auditing stuff sent your way.
Zevox 02-24-07, 03:29 PM	Well that really depends on how you acquired ur skellies. If it's from controlling, then it's a standard action, if its created then it's free. But either way, prebuffing a controlled skelly with the order "Sunder all opponents items giving preference to weapons held" should/would/could prolly be pretty valid. Tellish Eh, considering you're talking an int - creature, I doubt it would know what a "weapon" is as opposed to any other object. Any held item I suppose it could understand, but not weapons in particular. Zevox
MindWandererB 02-24-07, 04:06 PM	I'd give it weapons. If it knows how to fight with one, it should know what one is. @MWB: TAO auditing stuff sent your way.Thanks! I just have one question in response; check your PM box. (I'd post the full context here, but I'm not aware how to copy&paste from an Adobe Reader document, so the page must do.)Click on the "Select" icon in the button bar, then highlight the text.
Vathelokai 02-24-07, 05:16 PM	Thanks! I just have one question in response; check your PM box.Replied. I was being silly; 500 it is.
MindWandererB 02-24-07, 05:42 PM	Replied. I was being silly; 500 it is. And done. All caught up, thanks.
Tellish_of_Ket 02-25-07, 02:54 AM	My Assumption: Cleric 9/Simple Sorcerer variant 1 (animal companion-heavy horse) casts divine power and righteous might, enlarge person. Safe to assume that the "share spells" is in full effect for both parties? i'm now a HUGE humanoid, riding atop a GUARGANTUAN mount wielding a Collosal Lance? lol lemme get this straight. With the right feats: deepcrystal lance, expend focus, dissolving weapon, charging power attack, spirited charge, invisible, silent, raging = auto death? base 20str+8rm+2ep+6dp+2lvls+4rage(assume CL check made)= Str 42 (+16). 8d6 lance(-2 to hit for oversized one category), +4d6 dissolving, +2d6 focus, +24str, +10PA(assumed -5). TRIPLED!!! (assuming no crit) 42d6+72str+30PA=249 median dmg. OUCH!!!! OMFG!!! I'm not 100% familiar with the psionic part, but even if i'm off by 1d6, that's crazy insane. Unless i'm completely off my rocker. Tellish
Zevox 02-25-07, 02:58 AM	My Assumption: Cleric 9/Simple Sorcerer variant 1 (animal companion-heavy horse) casts divine power and righteous might, enlarge person. Problem: two spells which change your size do not stack with each other. You can get large with a huge mount from either of those, but both won't stack. Zevox
Tellish_of_Ket 02-25-07, 03:11 AM	Problem: two spells which change your size do not stack with each other. You can get large with a huge mount from either of those, but both won't stack. Zevox Yup, i missed that one. But i'd still get the +2 from the casting of Enlarge Person, but i wouldn't get the size bonus. Either way, that just reduces the Lance from 8d6, to 6d6. Median dmg is still 228 pts. That's still gonna leave a bruise. Tellish
Zevox 02-25-07, 03:14 AM	Hm... oddly, beyond that though, it seems almost fine. I'm shocked, but all of those strength-boosting spells (except enlarge + divine power) stack. Of course, you'd need strength-boosting items or (edit: items wouldn't stack with Divine Power [both enhancement bonus], so no go there) a race with a bonus to strength for that 20 strength, and credits, the magic domain, or more sorcerer levels to use rage, and you couldn't get dissolving weapon without being a psychic warrior or PrC using their power list yourself, but beyond that all legal stuff. Takes all of your feats (if you're human or a naturally psionic race; if not its beyond you) if you want Spirited Charge and Psionic Weapon, but legal. You'll run into the usual problems though - charging and invisibility only work against certain foes on certain maps, so if you're totally reliant on this trick you're likely to be in trouble. Particularly at that high level, invisibility isn't generally that useful anymore, since casters have long since been stocking scrolls of see invis, invisibility purge, or stones of touchsight, and non-casters have probably bought a Hand of Glory or custom see invis item. And with maps, the sewer and forest shut you down outright, and places like the cavern and temple make it very hard to charge if the opponent doesn't let you. Zevox
Zevox 02-25-07, 03:15 AM	Yup, i missed that one. But i'd still get the +2 from the casting of Enlarge Person, but i wouldn't get the size bonus. No, you wouldn't. Both Enlarge Person and Divine Power list their strength bonus a size bonus, which means they won't stack either (same named bonuses generally don't). Zevox
Tellish_of_Ket 02-25-07, 03:43 AM	No, you wouldn't. Both Enlarge Person and Divine Power list their strength bonus a size bonus, which means they won't stack either (same named bonuses generally don't). Zevox I think you mean Righteous Might, Divine Power is enh bonus. But i see what you mean from your previous post. He would definately not be a one-trick pony (pun intended). He's also a 9th level cleric...which means he can bring some serious offence to the battlefield, and definately being able to create opportunities to charge. Doing it invisibly isn't necessary, just a bonus if the opponent isn't prepared for it. Plus i didn't factor in things destruction domain either...that's another +27 dmg. And the rage can come from my favorite domain of all, Madness. Power attack can come from a multitude of minor bloodlines for 10 credits. Almost half of them give it. And since ur bab is now ur level, you can take -10 for +20dmg, and still have an awesome to-hit bonus....heck, use true strike before the charge just to make sure. Wood Elf would most likely be the better choice of races, but u prolly need human and reduce the str a bit...cuz you'll need a TON of feats to pull it off. The dissolving weapon can come from a tattoo. Still go wood elf if u don't mind delaying the combo. human:mounted combat 1st lvl:ride-by attack 3rd lvl:spirited charge 6th lvl:wild talent 8th lvl:power attack (minor bloodline) 9th lvl:psionic weapon Not sure if that works. I'm not very good with psionics. Tellish
templer10 02-25-07, 10:51 AM	iam not sure if it was asked before but can you make a dorja with the enlarge power metapsionic feat for apperantly no additional cost since it doesnt increase the pps cost of a power and if you do get such a dorja do you need to expand psionic focus every time you use it?
UserNamer 02-25-07, 12:48 PM	you need point blank shot for psionic shot, but i think you ment psionic weapon
Zevox 02-25-07, 01:20 PM	iam not sure if it was asked before but can you make a dorja with the enlarge power metapsionic feat for apperantly no additional cost since it doesnt increase the pps cost of a power and if you do get such a dorja do you need to expand psionic focus every time you use it? Yep, Enlarge Power is essentially a free metapsionic power for items, and no, you don't need to expend your focus (since its the item manifesting the power, not you). Zevox
Tellish_of_Ket 02-25-07, 03:11 PM	you need point blank shot for psionic shot, but i think you ment psionic weapon You are correct, i did mean psionic weapon and have edited my post to reflect that. Tellish
Tellish_of_Ket 02-25-07, 07:41 PM	WEIRD QUESTION: It's not explicit whether this is possible or not, but can a were-{animal} be animated as a skeleton in hybrid form? If not, i'd like a specific reference that would completely dissallow that (other than commen sense). My idea? a were-cachalot whale hybrid skeleton. 12hd, means it's only a CR 6 ally. Net results = str +25, dex +2, Con +14, Wis +2, Cha -4 He would make for one hell of a body guard for only CR 6. Tellish
NiQil 02-25-07, 07:51 PM	WEIRD QUESTION: It's not explicit whether this is possible or not, but can a were-{animal} be animated as a skeleton in hybrid form? If not, i'd like a specific reference that would completely dissallow that (other than commen sense). My idea? a were-cachalot whale hybrid skeleton. 12hd, means it's only a CR 6 ally. Net results = str +25, dex +2, Con +14, Wis +2, Cha -4 He would make for one hell of a body guard for only CR 6. Tellish Keep in mind that what you are requesting is counter-intuitive to how the rules are written. The rules are written to tell you what you can do, not to tell you what you can't do. Just because the rules don't say you can't, doesn't mean you can. The rules don't say that I can't have a '57 Chevy Bellaire in the arena, but I doubt it would ever be allowed.
MindWandererB 02-25-07, 07:51 PM	Here's the reason why not: a creature using Alternate Form (which lycanthropy references now) reverts to its natural form when killed. The natural form of a lycanthrope is its humanoid/giant one, and it loses Alternate form when it becomes a skeleton.
TheMagister 02-25-07, 07:57 PM	Not to mention the sheer fun-factor inherent in a skeleton that lacks a means of land-bound locomotion being told to "Climb up there and kill him!". :D Come to think of it, without flesh, I don't see a cachalot whale skeleton swimming, either. That may be the single most useless (in RL terms) skeleton you could animate! Now, a Giant Squid Zombie...there's an idea. Once per round it can grapple someone, up to what...10 people? :eek:
Tellish_of_Ket 02-25-07, 08:30 PM	That may be the single most useless (in RL terms) skeleton you could animate! Now, a Giant Squid Zombie...there's an idea. Once per round it can grapple someone, up to what...10 people? :eek: Not really useless if he could be in hybrid form, he could walk around. But MWB is correct. Lycan's revert back to their original form when killed. The only creature that doesn't revert are Bhargests. But the plain old squid skeleton could still walk around in the arena and grapple with tremendous reach. I like it. Maybe even use a Kraken then, CR 8 (20 hd), 60' reach. lol Tellish
TheMagister 02-25-07, 08:59 PM	I said zombie for a reason, ToK! Show me a squid's skeleton. A squid. You know...like an octopus. Think it over...
Tellish_of_Ket 02-25-07, 09:11 PM	I said zombie for a reason, ToK! Show me a squid's skeleton. A squid. You know...like an octopus. Think it over... Doh! My hooked on phonics just came in the mail...i better hit the books hard. Tellish
TheMagister 02-25-07, 09:13 PM	I hope to God that I'm not screwing my Mission character Jonathon Raven over with this. Okay. Walk through of the activation of a Energy Adaptation, Specified [ML3] powerstone by a non-psionic creature using UPD as the activation method. 1) Address the powerstone. DC 25 + 2 (power level). Can take 20. User has a +7 modifier. Success! 2) Use the powerstone. Note [see pg. 168 XPH]: Requirements: The user must have the power on his or her class list (see Chapter 5). The user must have the requisite key ability score. a) User does not have the power on his class list. Substitute New Requirement: UPD check 1d20+7 vs. DC 20 + 3 (ML) = 23. Success! Requirement Met. b) User has a 14 Intelligence. Requirement Met. 3) Manifester level check Note [see pg. 168 XPH]: If she meets both requirements but her own level is lower than the power stone's manifester level, she has to make a manifester level check (1d20 + user's level), against a DC equal to the powerstone's manifester level+1, to manifest the power successfully. On a failure, the user must succeed on a Wisdom check DC 5 to avoid brainburn (see below). A natural roll of 1 on this check is always a failure. a) User has no manifester level. Substitute UPD check of 1d20+7-20 vs. DC 0 where the result is the user's effective manifester level (see pg. 39 XPH, Emulate Class Feature). Result: 14+7-20 = 1. User has an effective Manifester Level of 1. b) Manifester Level check of 1d20 + 1 (user's EML) vs. DC 4 (stone ML 3+1). Success! 4) Power Manifested. Man that's harsh. Am I adding extra stuff in there? TM
McJarvis 02-25-07, 09:19 PM	double post. O_O
McJarvis 02-25-07, 09:21 PM	The power can be used by wilders, psions, and psi-warriors. Your character doesn't have at least a 12 in Wis, Cha, or Int? To my knowledge, so long as you have the Wis/Cha/Int req(pick one), all you would need is a UMD check of a DC 20+manifester level I quoteth: Use a Power Stone: Normally, to manifest a power from a power stone, you must have the power stone’s power on your class power list. This use of the skill allows you to use a power stone as if you had a particular power on your class power list. The DC is equal to 20 + the manifester level of the power you are trying to manifest from the power stone. Note: Before you use a power stone, you must first have addressed it to determine what powers it contains. In addition, manifesting a power from a power stone requires a minimum score (10 + power level) in the appropriate ability. If you don’t have a high enough score, you must emulate the ability score with a separate check (see above). This use of the skill applies to other power completion psionic items. So in order to use a powerstone with UPD: 1) Address Powerstone 2) Check to see if you have the appropriate ability stat. 3) Do a UPD check at a DC of 20+manifester level. Though, to use any other type of psi-trigger item other than a dorjes or powerstone(go ahead and find one, I dare you!), I believe you are correct. These two items are exempted from "normal" rules because they have specific examples of them in the text under UPD.
hogarth 02-25-07, 09:32 PM	WEIRD QUESTION: It's not explicit whether this is possible or not, but can a were-{animal} be animated as a skeleton in hybrid form? If not, i'd like a specific reference that would completely dissallow that (other than commen sense). I would say "No skeletons/zombies of templated creatures. Period."; otherwise we'll see a lot of half-fiend, half-dragon, paragon nightmare skeletons (or whatever).
McJarvis 02-25-07, 09:42 PM	Guild Question: During missions which branch over a 3FC period, can you purchase items in-between 3FC's? It isn't specified in the Missions rules.
Prisonlords 02-25-07, 09:45 PM	For anyone interested, I have made some minor changes to the Default Character Sheet located in the Prison. It can be seen here. Mostly removal of some things that didn't have to be there, and some slight reordering of things. No one is required to make these changes, but feel free to do so. The default sheet in the rules thread will be updated this way as well, just as soon as Cat read's his PM's.
TheMagister 02-25-07, 10:00 PM	The power can be used by wilders, psions, and psi-warriors. Your character doesn't have at least a 12 in Wis, Cha, or Int? Of course. I detailed that he had a 14 Intelligence. To my knowledge, so long as you have the Wis/Cha/Int req(pick one), all you would need is a UMD check of a DC 20+manifester level I quoteth: So in order to use a powerstone with UPD: 1) Address Powerstone 2) Check to see if you have the appropriate ability stat. 3) Do a UPD check at a DC of 20+manifester level. Exactly! What is a non-psionic character's Manifester Level? He doesn't have one! Is that zero? No. It's --. You have to use UPD to mimic having a ML, which is a class feature. Though, to use any other type of psi-trigger item other than a dorjes or powerstone(go ahead and find one, I dare you!), I believe you are correct. These two items are exempted from "normal" rules because they have specific examples of them in the text under UPD. Powerstones are power-completion items, and they have their own activation sequence detailed on page 168 of the XPH. Read it carefully and then re-read my first post.
Erithmu 02-25-07, 10:05 PM	Guild Question: During missions which branch over a 3FC period, can you purchase items in-between 3FC's? It isn't specified in the Missions rules. Because missions follow the 3FC you are allowed to buy in between your cycles, but not able to craft fully or train critters.
TheMagister 02-25-07, 10:18 PM	Please, I need some more input on my earlier question. Do most of you agree with McJ?
Sutro 02-25-07, 10:22 PM	Tellish - Small problem with sharing enlarge person. Your mount isn't a person. -Sutro
Zevox 02-25-07, 10:25 PM	Tellish - Small problem with sharing enlarge person. Your mount isn't a person. -Sutro The "Share Spells" ability of familiars and animal companions specifically allows you to affect them with spells which normally do not work on creatures of their type. Zevox
Erithmu 02-25-07, 10:30 PM	Please, I need some more input on my earlier question. Do most of you agree with McJ? McJ is right ... only have 3 steps and d20 roll to make. Follow the skill usage.
hogarth 02-25-07, 10:40 PM	McJ is right ... only have 3 steps and d20 roll to make. Follow the skill usage. Yes. The DC is 23 for a ML 3 powerstone.
Tellish_of_Ket 02-26-07, 12:28 AM	Ok...i now you guys are prolly sick about hearing my abusive combo's, but here's another question that isn't addressed in CoCo. Simple Sorc 1/Druid 2/Ranger 4/wizard 1 Would i get to bring in ALL 4 companions in battle at once, since they are all considered class allies? If that's true i can take it one step farther and do Cleric 5, and have an animated undead ally (ECL 13) of CR 11. correct? Tellish
NiQil 02-26-07, 12:36 AM	Ok...i now you guys are prolly sick about hearing my abusive combo's, but here's another question that isn't addressed in CoCo. Simple Sorc 1/Druid 2/Ranger 4/wizard 1 Would i get to bring in ALL 4 companions in battle at once, since they are all considered class allies? If that's true i can take it one step farther and do Cleric 5, and have an animated undead ally (ECL 13) of CR 11. correct? Tellish Thought I have no time to look at sources atm, I believe that Sorc/Wiz will only provide you with one familiar, as druid/ranger will only provide 1 animal companion. Not 100% certain, however.
Zevox 02-26-07, 12:37 AM	Ok...i now you guys are prolly sick about hearing my abusive combo's, but here's another question that isn't addressed in CoCo. Simple Sorc 1/Druid 2/Ranger 4/wizard 1 Would i get to bring in ALL 4 companions in battle at once, since they are all considered class allies? If that's true i can take it one step farther and do Cleric 5, and have an animated undead ally (ECL 13) of CR 11. correct? Tellish Nope. We have a house rule about those. Check the post here - if you take a variant class that provides a class feature, you cannot take or possess levels in another class that provides that feature. You could of course play any of the first three multiclassed as a wizard to get an animal companion and familiar though. Zevox
Tellish_of_Ket 02-26-07, 01:23 AM	Nope. We have a house rule about those. Check the post here - if you take a variant class that provides a class feature, you cannot take or possess levels in another class that provides that feature. You could of course play any of the first three multiclassed as a wizard to get an animal companion and familiar though. Zevox Thx, u've been a great help. I'm still thinking about stuff. Either way, sharing slay living with ur familiar, enhanced by righteous might/divine power is nothing to sneeze at. Especially with a 20hd kraken zombie to back you up. heck, share your true strike while ur at it. Tellish
MindWandererB 02-26-07, 02:14 PM	Nope. We have a house rule about those. Check the post here - if you take a variant class that provides a class feature, you cannot take or possess levels in another class that provides that feature. You could of course play any of the first three multiclassed as a wizard to get an animal companion and familiar though. Zevox And even without this house rule, the usual rule is that if you have the same class feature from two classes, your class levels stack. It's true for druid+ranger, so it'd be true for the others. You'd get 1 AC as if you were a level 5 druid.
SauroGrenom 02-26-07, 04:20 PM	I just got the email. I'm accepted to medical school! I'm so happy right now. It's been a two year ordeal with dozens of essays and thousands of dollars. For the good news to finally come is so great. I'm a bit discombobled right now. Whoo. Off to make some more phone calls.
TelinArtho 02-26-07, 04:22 PM	Nice! Now you get to look forward to 1-20 years of more school... :) Congratulations.
Vathelokai 02-26-07, 04:30 PM	I just got the email. I'm accepted to medical school! I'm so happy right now. It's been a two year ordeal with dozens of essays and thousands of dollars. For the good news to finally come is so great. I'm a bit discombobled right now. Whoo. Off to make some more phone calls. :cheer: :dancin: :cheer: :dancin: :cheer: :dancin: :cheer: :dancin:
MindWandererB 02-26-07, 04:33 PM	I just got the email. I'm accepted to medical school! I'm so happy right now. It's been a two year ordeal with dozens of essays and thousands of dollars. For the good news to finally come is so great. I'm a bit discombobled right now. Whoo. Off to make some more phone calls.Wow! Congrats! Would you mind telling us which school?Nice! Now you get to look forward to 1-20 years of more school... :)Not 20. Absolute worst case scenario, assuming failing and repeating the maximum they'll allow, is 6 years of med school, 9 years of residency, and 3 years of fellowship. Only 18. :) Of course, that's assuming only one specialty and only one sub-specialty. So I guess you could hit 20, but only if you're a masochist.
SauroGrenom 02-26-07, 04:38 PM	Thanks guys. It's University of Missouri in Columbia, Missouri (UM has several campuses but one medschool). The state school's are always the most likely to accept an in state resident.
McJarvis 02-26-07, 04:47 PM	Thanks guys. It's University of Missouri in Columbia, Missouri (UM has several campuses but one medschool). The state school's are always the most likely to accept an in state resident. As opposed to the University of Missouri in Columbia, New Jersey. ;) Way to go man. You'll be living up to that Dr. Cox haircut in no time :D
TelinArtho 02-26-07, 04:48 PM	You might be joking McJarvis - but there's several campuses (campi?) of the University of Arizona in Massachusetts (and other states if I remember correctly...) For that matter SUNY has some offerings here in Massachusetts as well.
sonofzeal 02-26-07, 05:52 PM	Quick clarification - once a character has had its first fight, I don't need to PM the Pitlords account to get into other fights, right? Oh, and I've been hearing talk of Pitlord shortages. If, hypothetically speaking, I were interrested in becomming a pitlord at some point, what are the necessary qualifications and how would I go about actually becomming one?
TelinArtho 02-26-07, 05:56 PM	Once a character is in the character roster (post 2 of the characters thread), you don't need to send a PM to Pitlords to activate the character. If you do go inactive (you, not your character), Pitlords might remove you from the list - then a simple PM will resolve that. Only send a PM for this purpose if your character is not on that list. The only thing you need to do to become a pitlord is to send a PM to Pitlords with the number of fights you will take each week. I would suggest to start with one because the first few generally take more time than after you have learned all of the qwirky rules that we have. We always need piltords - and frankly we never have near enough of them - so anyone who is willing to put something back into the community has my praise. The important thing about being a pitlord is to remain patient and level-headed. That's about the best advice I can give. If you do have questions - ask freely in the FotW thread.
Hirumajoe 02-26-07, 05:59 PM	Oh, and I've been hearing talk of Pitlord shortages. If, hypothetically speaking, I were interrested in becomming a pitlord at some point, what are the necessary qualifications and how would I go about actually becomming one? The only qualification I know of is large blocks free time. :D Basically, all the useful links such as to the online dice roller and the mapper are in the first post of the Fights of the Week thread, every week. Also the Rules of Gladius also has alot of pertinent Pitlord details. Take a look at some other people's fight formats and steal what looks good to you, keeping in mind the amount of work you want to put into the fight and the formating. You really big things are the end of round (or beginning of round) summaries with positions, hitpoints, buffs, etc. You also need to use the standardized fight summary section (Hours between fights, Items used, etc). Its actually not bad at all except for the time commitment. Expect to spend 3-4 hours on a single fight at first (or at least thats what I did, other people might have faster learning curves).
MindWandererB 02-26-07, 06:05 PM	We always need piltords - and frankly we never have near enough of them....Just because I'm a contentious soul, this needs a correction. I thought it was true until this week, when I signed up for five fights and got only 3 (one of which was actually resolved already). So it's rare, but it happens. Oh, and my first fight took many more than four hours--more like eight. But I'm a perfectionist; my fights still take about three or four hours, less for two level 3 barbarians pounding away at each other, more when pixies or zookeepers are involved.
McJarvis 02-26-07, 06:12 PM	I agree on the 3-4 hours per fight at first. Eventually with much practice I was able to bend it down to about forty minutes per fight...but that didn't come until I was juggling 5 fights a week for about a month straight. ~McJ~
sonofzeal 02-26-07, 06:47 PM	PM away, let's give this thing a try. :cool: I may need assistance calculating rewards, but I've taken a look at the mapper and I anticipate some great fun fiddling around with it in the context of an actual battle. Posting maps no longer earns credits, but posting dicerolls does, right?
MindWandererB 02-26-07, 06:53 PM	PM away, let's give this thing a try. :cool: I may need assistance calculating rewards, but I've taken a look at the mapper and I anticipate some great fun fiddling around with it in the context of an actual battle. Posting maps no longer earns credits, but posting dicerolls does, right? No, that's just a required element. The only credit you get is for the fight itself.
sonofzeal 02-26-07, 07:05 PM	No, that's just a required element. The only credit you get is for the fight itself. Sorry, I meant using an online roller; the pitlord rules post said that was for credits, but that could have been changed.
MindWandererB 02-26-07, 07:14 PM	Sorry, I meant using an online roller; the pitlord rules post said that was for credits, but that could have been changed. Huh. The rules do say that. I don't think that's been true for a long time. Unless I'm missing something?
McJarvis 02-26-07, 07:18 PM	Huh. The rules do say that. I don't think that's been true for a long time. Unless I'm missing something? If it is, I'm due about 30 credits :)
TheMagister 02-26-07, 07:47 PM	I agree on the 3-4 hours per fight at first. Eventually with much practice I was able to bend it down to about forty minutes per fight...but that didn't come until I was juggling 5 fights a week for about a month straight. ~McJ~ 40...minutes?! :OMG! :ghosted: I spend a minimum of two hours on a fight, even if it's the two barbarians MWB mentioned! 40 minutes?! If only...
Iced 02-26-07, 07:53 PM	Casting a summon is a full round action. If i started and completed the spell in round 2 it would appear and act as soon as it appeared - attacking the enemy. There shouldn't be any sort of delay period... Ah! Common misconception! Originally Posted by PHB, pg 174: Casting Time <snip> A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. YOu then act normally after the spell is completed. <snip> So Anixx starts casting on (say) Round 2, initiative count 20. He finishes casting on Round 3, initiative count 21. ... i'm not so sure about that one. Originally Posted by SRD This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. That sounds to me like it's supposed to show up round of and i've always run summoning spells that way. You are the DM and get the final say, but i think you're mistaken on this one. So go to the tavern and ask! All I can tell you is that what I quoted is what's written. "On your turn" is "On your turn". ... You have a turn every round. Since the Casting Time is 1 round, I would think that the "On your turn" that they're referring to is the beginning of your next turn, just like the section under Casting Time says. Get an Elder to agree with you. I value MWB's opinion, personally. Or even ask Vathelokai or Telin, they've both run Summoners. Do any elders have an opinion on this one?
MindWandererB 02-26-07, 07:56 PM	Do any elders have an opinion on this one? No opinion necessary. Turn to the PHB, page 169. There's a walkthrough of exactly this.
Guildmaster_LOY 02-26-07, 07:57 PM	Do any elders have an opinion on this one? It's not a matter of opinion. TM is correct. The summoned creature acts immediately...after it is summoned. It couldn't act before it was summoned, and it takes 1 full round to summon it. Round 1: start casting. Round 2: Finish casting, creature acts. -Your resident fake-elder.
McJarvis 02-26-07, 09:19 PM	40...minutes?! :OMG! :ghosted: I spend a minimum of two hours on a fight, even if it's the two barbarians MWB mentioned! 40 minutes?! If only... My formula: 1) Copy character sheets/post them 2) Copy tactics/post them 3) Open windows for roller, post with char sheets/tactics, and mapmaker. 4) Open notepad. 5) Begin the fight by rolling initiative & rolling where characters will be. 6+) The battle begins. Do the beginning round by rounds. Then I just scan tactics for specific situations that come. Using a tabbed browser helps, and knowing the SRD by heart does too. ;) It also helps that I have about two years of data entry under my belt job-wise....you can copy/paste with amazing speed after a while. Also, a really bad way to get this good is to always run fights until there is only 1 hour left to do 2 fights. You learn really quickly how to do them fast! :D If I ever start pitlording again, let it be known that long tactics to me are your enemy.**coughcatcough** edit-> I'm just kidding about the "if I start pitlording again" thing. There's no "if" about me pitlording again..it's just a matter of me being happy with how my work with LOY is going, since when I start pitlording I know that'll be the first thing to suffer.
Vathelokai 02-26-07, 09:40 PM	My formula: 1) Copy character sheets/post them 2) Copy tactics/post them 3) Open windows for roller, post with char sheets/tactics, and mapmaker. 4) Open notepad. 5) Begin the fight by rolling initiative & rolling where characters will be. 6+) The battle begins. Do the beginning round by rounds. Then I just scan tactics for specific situations that come. Funny, I do the same thing and it still takes me a couple hours. Probably because I look up spells and such every other round and spend around 5 minutes pondering every time there is a situation that isn't covered in the tactics. Any-who, Now that my weekend of suck is over (mostly), I'll be getting my fight done and my quests caught up. On a brighter note: I downloaded a copy of MAME (multiple arcade machine emulator) and a copy of 'D&D: Shadow over Mystara" from RomNation.com! If you didn't get a chance to play this in the arcade back in the 90s (did I just say, back in the 90s??! eek) friggin grab it.
McJarvis 02-26-07, 09:45 PM	Funny, I do the same thing and it still takes me a couple hours. Probably because I look up spells and such every other round and spend around 5 minutes pondering every time there is a situation that isn't covered in the tactics. My underlying assumption is that if a situation isn't covered in their tactics, then anything I do is going to be an arbitrary call anyway. As such, I just do whatever first pops into my mind. Since most fights are either low ECL's or the gladiators already knew the outcome before they sent in their tactics, people never really complain. :-O It's important to know how to prioritize. Do what will get the fight done without any chance of a re-do. Following the rules & primary tactics is first priority. Following vague tactics is second, and making up tactics is almost non-existent. In the end the only thing gladiators can argue on are rule-violations and not following their tactics. If you were forced to go out of their tactics, then they have no right to complain...so why antagonize over it? :) If their tactics were way too long, then instead of worrying about missing some small little thing just tell them beforehand to cut it down. Perhaps I'm too nonchalant about Pit lording, but my methods lead to stress-free 'lording & encourage gladiators to be clear & to the point.
NiQil 02-26-07, 09:53 PM	My underlying assumption is that if a situation isn't covered in their tactics, then anything I do is going to be an arbitrary call anyway. As such, I just do whatever first pops into my mind. Since most fights are either low ECL's or the gladiators already knew the outcome before they sent in their tactics, people never really complain. :-O It's important to know how to prioritize. Do what will get the fight done without any chance of a re-do. Following the rules & primary tactics is first priority. Following vague tactics is second, and making up tactics is almost non-existent. In the end the only thing gladiators can argue on are rule-violations and not following their tactics. If you were forced to go out of their tactics, then they have no right to complain...so why antagonize over it? :) If their tactics were way too long, then instead of worrying about missing some small little thing just tell them beforehand to cut it down. Perhaps I'm too nonchalant about Pit lording, but my methods lead to stress-free 'lording & encourage gladiators to be clear & to the point. Unless you're Cat....then it just encourages longer tactics with more detail LOL
McJarvis 02-26-07, 10:05 PM	Unless you're Cat....then it just encourages longer tactics with more detail LOL Methinks Cat should pray he never gets me as a pitlord. If I ever saw his essays of tactics, I would just PM him back and tell him to re-do it in a quarter of the length. -_-
Tellish_of_Ket 02-27-07, 12:41 AM	It's not a matter of opinion. TM is correct. The summoned creature acts immediately...after it is summoned. It couldn't act before it was summoned, and it takes 1 full round to summon it. Round 1: start casting. Round 2: Finish casting, creature acts. -Your resident fake-elder. I believe i've already replied to this as well. It's spot on. Round 1, initiative 20...you begin to cast a summon. Round 2 (before you act), initiative 20, your summons come into play and do whatever. You then get to act. Tellsih
MindWandererB 02-27-07, 01:43 AM	Funny, I do the same thing and it still takes me a couple hours. Probably because I look up spells and such every other round and spend around 5 minutes pondering every time there is a situation that isn't covered in the tactics. Any-who, Now that my weekend of suck is over (mostly), I'll be getting my fight done and my quests caught up. On a brighter note: I downloaded a copy of MAME (multiple arcade machine emulator) and a copy of 'D&D: Shadow over Mystara" from RomNation.com! If you didn't get a chance to play this in the arcade back in the 90s (did I just say, back in the 90s??! eek) friggin grab it.I'm in the same boat. I know the general rules, but the specifics always force me to look stuff up. And there's always at least one point in a fight where I have to make a judgment call... and then field complaints from one player or another. That, and I annotate and map very precisely--I make sure each step of each character is optimized the way I would do it in a TT game if I were them. Yeah, I remember when I first downloaded that game... gosh, about a decade ago. And the first one, Towers of Doom. Fun stuff. And don't forget Cadash, while you're at it.
Rauul 02-27-07, 01:43 AM	Something came up in a fight i just ran.. and i have to ask.. Protection from evil SRD Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect. If the protection from evil effect ends before the effect granting mental control does, the would-be controller would then be able to mentally command the controlled creature. Likewise, the barrier keeps out a possessing life force but does not expel one if it is in place before the spell is cast. This second effect works regardless of alignment. to me this dosent stop Hold person and sleep, but as long as it's up the spells won't work on the protected party, and if the spells outlast the Prot from evil, then they take effect.. Am I wrong on this aspect of Protection from Evil? if i am not wrong.. then Prot from (blah) are extremely powerful for a level 1 spell...
MindWandererB 02-27-07, 02:13 AM	Something came up in a fight i just ran.. and i have to ask.. Protection from evil to me this dosent stop Hold person and sleep, but as long as it's up the spells won't work on the protected party, and if the spells outlast the Prot from evil, then they take effect.. Am I wrong on this aspect of Protection from Evil? if i am not wrong.. then Prot from (blah) are extremely powerful for a level 1 spell... This is addressed in the FotW, the FAQ, and the Court Decisions. Kind of overkill, really.
Tellish_of_Ket 02-27-07, 02:16 AM	I'm in the same boat. I know the general rules, but the specifics always force me to look stuff up. And there's always at least one point in a fight where I have to make a judgment call... and then field complaints from one player or another. That, and I annotate and map very precisely--I make sure each step of each character is optimized the way I would do it in a TT game if I were them. Yeah, I remember when I first downloaded that game... gosh, about a decade ago. And the first one, Towers of Doom. Fun stuff. And don't forget Cadash, while you're at it. K, downloaded it, but have no frickin' clue on how to use it. Says run from command prompt...Run: mame dd2.01 Nothing...that's the first file in the zip of Mystara...not sure if that's even the file i need to type, but even if type the right one, it might not work cuz i get an error even just typing mame. Help? plz plz Tellish **EDIT Finally figured it out...i guess i need a joystick to play :(
Tellish_of_Ket 02-27-07, 03:16 AM	I couldn't find any reference in the Gladius Rules about using the LA reducing options from UA useable? 1) if i'm just blind, and it's not useable...all is good. 2) if i'm just blind, and they are useable...i suggest an immediate ban. Tellish
Rauul 02-27-07, 03:54 AM	This is addressed in the FotW, the FAQ, and the Court Decisions. Kind of overkill, really. FotW points to Court Decisions that points to the FAQ that has nothing in it (the newest one i just downloaded from the WotC website, anyways) Hence the reason for the overkill..
hogarth 02-27-07, 07:02 AM	On a brighter note: I downloaded a copy of MAME (multiple arcade machine emulator) and a copy of 'D&D: Shadow over Mystara" from RomNation.com! If you didn't get a chance to play this in the arcade back in the 90s (did I just say, back in the 90s??! eek) friggin grab it. Ah...that brings back memories of hours at university spent playing that game, plus X-Men, Super Mario Brothers pinball and Golden Axe: The Revenge of Death Adder. I could get a lot of mileage out of a quarter in those days. Oh, and there was probably some studying in there, too.
Abyssal Stalker 02-27-07, 08:47 AM	Questlord wanted! Anyone care to pick a quest with a short notice? I'd like to quest with Jonathon for a cohort.
Vathelokai 02-27-07, 09:28 AM	K, downloaded it, but have no frickin' clue on how to use it. Says run from command prompt...Run: mame dd2.01 Nothing...that's the first file in the zip of Mystara...not sure if that's even the file i need to type, but even if type the right one, it might not work cuz i get an error even just typing mame. Help? plz plz Tellish **EDIT Finally figured it out...i guess i need a joystick to play :( Nah... if you can get the game up and running, press TAB. It will let you change the control buttons. The defaults are the arrow keys, and the left side alt/shift/cntrl. If you're less command prompt savvy, then try downloading MAME32. It's the GUI version. Also, there are 2K and 17K versions of the game to download. Grab the big one. The small ones work by borrowing files from the larger one.
TelinArtho 02-27-07, 10:30 AM	I couldn't find any reference in the Gladius Rules about using the LA reducing options from UA useable? 1) if i'm just blind, and it's not useable...all is good. 2) if i'm just blind, and they are useable...i suggest an immediate ban. Tellish If its not in the rules thread (for UA) material, then it isn't allowed. Ergo - its not allowed.
TelinArtho 02-27-07, 11:02 AM	Just because I'm a contentious soul, this needs a correction. I thought it was true until this week, when I signed up for five fights and got only 3 (one of which was actually resolved already). So it's rare, but it happens. Oh, and my first fight took many more than four hours--more like eight. But I'm a perfectionist; my fights still take about three or four hours, less for two level 3 barbarians pounding away at each other, more when pixies or zookeepers are involved. You and I have a different definition of what constitutes an adequate number of pitlords. Here's what I generally work with: 1. There's enough pitlords (as in individuals) to run all of the fights without the need to have pitlords take multiple fights. 2. There's enough pitlords available to run multiple fights that a reasonable fluctuation in availability can be covered. (So there's very few held-over fights due to pitlord absence). 3. The above two points happen for multiple weeks in a row. Once the system relies on people taking 3+ fights, a single hiccup can derail things and throw it into disarray. For instance, if you were signed up for five fights and then your computer died - so you had limited means to complete them - that would throw things for a loop for 10+ characters. If you had the capacity to handle 5 fights, and were assigned them - if there's enough pitlords on hand - then those fights can be finished on time. Recall what I was doing before I left last February. On Monday and Tuesday I went around and collected all of the unfinished fights in order to get them done. Fights are still being unfinished today, but what's the difference? Very few are stepping up to finish them.
McJarvis 02-27-07, 12:36 PM	I'm afraid I don't know this...nor do I know where to look for it. What qualifies a mount as acceptable size for you to ride it? A certain # of size categories away...? Specifically, I desire to have a halfling mounted on a horse.
hogarth 02-27-07, 12:51 PM	I'm afraid I don't know this...nor do I know where to look for it. What qualifies a mount as acceptable size for you to ride it? A certain # of size categories away...? Specifically, I desire to have a halfling mounted on a horse. Zevox has a goblin mounted on a horse (Istima) and multiple people have psicrystals mounted on horses (Istima and Valen Sky). If we're allowing that psicrystal one (or a gnome riding a snake), it looks like we're allowing just about anything. Personally, I refuse to stoop to psicrystal bronco-busting with my gladiators, but that's just me.
McJarvis 02-27-07, 01:11 PM	Personally, I refuse to stoop to psicrystal bronco-busting with my gladiators, but that's just me. What, no psicrystal riding a tarresque in your world? It's just gotta dig it's...spiney leg-things..in real deep. :)
hogarth 02-27-07, 01:15 PM	What, no psicrystal riding a tarresque in your world? It's just gotta dig it's...spiney leg-things..in real deep. :) The tarrasque is unfeasible in the Core Coliseum. I'd have to stick with something boring like a ha-naga (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/haNaga.htm) skeleton (CR 8).
MindWandererB 02-27-07, 01:24 PM	I'm afraid I don't know this...nor do I know where to look for it. What qualifies a mount as acceptable size for you to ride it? A certain # of size categories away...? Specifically, I desire to have a halfling mounted on a horse. Ironically, this is in the "suitable mounts" quote that was just posted a little while ago. Minimum mount size is one size larger than the rider, and there is no theoretical maximum.
hogarth 02-27-07, 01:56 PM	How does an Eversmoking Bottle work if the holder of the bottle is moving? Does it create a 10' radius smoke cloud wherever the holder stops?
Tellish_of_Ket 02-27-07, 01:57 PM	You and I have a different definition of what constitutes an adequate number of pitlords. Here's what I generally work with: 1. There's enough pitlords (as in individuals) to run all of the fights without the need to have pitlords take multiple fights. 2. There's enough pitlords available to run multiple fights that a reasonable fluctuation in availability can be covered. (So there's very few held-over fights due to pitlord absence). 3. The above two points happen for multiple weeks in a row. Once the system relies on people taking 3+ fights, a single hiccup can derail things and throw it into disarray. For instance, if you were signed up for five fights and then your computer died - so you had limited means to complete them - that would throw things for a loop for 10+ characters. If you had the capacity to handle 5 fights, and were assigned them - if there's enough pitlords on hand - then those fights can be finished on time. Recall what I was doing before I left last February. On Monday and Tuesday I went around and collected all of the unfinished fights in order to get them done. Fights are still being unfinished today, but what's the difference? Very few are stepping up to finish them. So then how come i wasn't given a pitlord for my MQ, and when asked, noone has offered? lol. Either way, it's a blessing cuz i would have been stuck with a build that i wouldn't have been happy with. Now i think he's ready to hit the slopes. So wednesday i expect to start kicking butt. Tellish
hogarth 02-27-07, 02:06 PM	So then how come i wasn't given a pitlord for my MQ, and when asked, noone has offered? lol. Either way, it's a blessing cuz i would have been stuck with a build that i wouldn't have been happy with. Now i think he's ready to hit the slopes. So wednesday i expect to start kicking butt. If you want a pitlord for a miniquest, you can always request that one get randomly assigned to you for the next pairing date. That's what I did with my character (Treetall Oakleg) last week. Just use a subject line like the following: Ready for February 28 - Miniquest: EL 10 (get dragon corpse), QL ?????
waywreth 02-27-07, 04:17 PM	As a note EL10 quests are NOT easy, especially vs. dragons if you so request it. Right Telin? :evillaugh
TelinArtho 02-27-07, 04:25 PM	Well, that quest was EL11... and we still almost succeeded...
hogarth 02-27-07, 04:27 PM	As a note EL10 quests are NOT easy, especially vs. dragons if you so request it. Right Telin? :evillaugh How about a very young red dragon 8th level cleric? That's CR 10, isn't it? :smirk: :dragon:
Tellish_of_Ket 02-27-07, 04:41 PM	As a note EL10 quests are NOT easy, especially vs. dragons if you so request it. Right Telin? :evillaugh Dragons, imho, are the biggest bang for the buck where CR for the hd(hp, powers) are concerned. The only thing i can think of that comes to mind is template abuse with cr 1/2 or lower creatures. Half-Dragon/Vampiric fiendish Kobold CR 4 That EL 11 encounter you had could have been 12 of those nasty Kobolds. That one you could say "No Chance"...not even for the harvester. He'd get mowed down like there was no tomorrow. Break the 12 down into 3 reds, 3 blacks, 3 white, 3 blue, 3 green to avoid a single energy res spell to stop them all. If you're thinking that's impossible, it's not. I wrote a Living Greyhawk Interactive with just such template abuse to kill as many cheese-weasels as possible. Too many power-gaming cry babies that think they are uber-cool and needed to be taken down a notch with simplicity at its best. Also the advanced, legendary awakened direshark that could fly was an instant killer for parties. Needless to say, the local Triad and I ended up butting heads and i had to put my pride aside in killing all these peons whom thought they were DnD gods and let them have fun instead. I still got to kill a few, but i wanted the "All-Day-TPK"...muiwhhahahhaa Of course, my crowning achievement.... APL 14 (EL 18) General, Fighter 12 Khan, Wiz 16 Khall, Cleric 14 Amz, Ftr 6 Klang, Ftr 6 Scouts (4 wood elf rangers 2nd) Troopers #1 4 Fighters 4th Troopers #2 9 Gnolls fighter 2nd Troopers #3 9 archers (ftr2/rng2) Breakdown for APL 14 (EL 18) Elite Army 9 archers = EL 10 + (9 gnolls EL 8) = EL 11 4 4th lvl fighters = EL 8, + 4 scouts (EL 8) = EL 10 Amz/Klang = EL 8 general/Khall = EL 15 Khan = EL 16 EL 11 EL 10 EL 8 EL 15 EL 16 8+10=11+11=13+15=16+16=18 !!! :) Oh my...the pain. Although no party ever made it to the final encounter. They all surrendered before it ever came down to that at the Hag Covey. It was the last time i wrote for Living Greyhawk...but i had fun in the time that i did. Some ppl just don't appreciate good art work. LOL Tellish
sonofzeal 02-27-07, 04:57 PM	Dragons, imho, are the biggest bang for the buck where CR for the hd(hp, powers) are concerned. Dragons arn't the only broken things. A polar bear has the same CR and HD as a Very Young green dragon, and can match it in a brawl. Granted, the dragon can choose to strafe from the air, but the Polar Bear can grapple. Oh, and my favorite pet monster is an advanced Gibbering Mouther with 8 HD - technically a CR 7 encounter - with Ability Focus (Gibber) and Ability Focus (Spittle), and the non-elite array. Since it's now large, its con goes up (making its spittle even more dangerous), its grapple goes up (making its Engulf exponentially more dangerous), and its str goes up substantially (changing its 5 bites from an annoyance to a serious danger). All of a sudden half the party is confused, the other half is blinded, and the spellcaster is buried under a pile of goo.
Tellish_of_Ket 02-27-07, 05:08 PM	Dragons arn't the only broken things. A polar bear has the same CR and HD as a Very Young green dragon, and can match it in a brawl. Granted, the dragon can choose to strafe from the air, but the Polar Bear can grapple. Oh, and my favorite pet monster is an advanced Gibbering Mouther with 8 HD - technically a CR 7 encounter - with Ability Focus (Gibber) and Ability Focus (Spittle), and the non-elite array. Since it's now large, its con goes up (making its spittle even more dangerous), its grapple goes up (making its Engulf exponentially more dangerous), and its str goes up substantially (changing its 5 bites from an annoyance to a serious danger). All of a sudden half the party is confused, the other half is blinded, and the spellcaster is buried under a pile of goo. No an exceptionally mobile creature though. Prolly the worst i ran into in my years of Living Greyhawk was again....simplicity at it's best. An advanced (15hd) half-fiend Otyugh. For a 6-8th (APL 8, EL 12) level party, that is EXTREMELY deadly. Horrid Wilting -- ugh...2 party members die before anyone even gets a chance to do anything, and 2 others are bleeding out, leaving only two members (illusionist, and cleric). Plus you are fighting it in the sewers in 10' of sewage water...trying to balance on a foot-wide ledge. Yea..that's deadly. Thank goodness for the illusionist and low will saves for Otyughs. I find ppl try to overcomplicate things too much. Somtimes, simpler is better. Tellish
TheMagister 02-27-07, 05:59 PM	Mini-Questlord Wanted Who wants to help me turn Rubicanti into a touch-attack machine? I'll be miniquesting him to burn down a building/structure just for the fun of it, and to change his alignment from Lawful Neutral to Chaotic Neutral, so that he can fulfull the requirements of a pyrokineticist. And three levels after that, the flames come. And two levels after that, the volcano erupts... Dunno what I'm gonna do with that whip of fire, though. I've always thought that that was pretty crappy. I guess it's nice to always have a fire source. Don't need torches, tindertwigs, etc... TM
MindWandererB 02-27-07, 06:16 PM	I assume this is for this week? If so, then not I. I could do it March 7 or later.
Tellish_of_Ket 02-27-07, 06:24 PM	Mini-Questlord Wanted Who wants to help me turn Rubicanti into a touch-attack machine? I'll be miniquesting him to burn down a building/structure just for the fun of it, and to change his alignment from Lawful Neutral to Chaotic Neutral, so that he can fulfull the requirements of a pyrokineticist. And three levels after that, the flames come. And two levels after that, the volcano erupts... Dunno what I'm gonna do with that whip of fire, though. I've always thought that that was pretty crappy. I guess it's nice to always have a fire source. Don't need torches, tindertwigs, etc... TM I got your back on this one. I'll send a PM to Pitlords asap. Tellish
sonofzeal 02-27-07, 06:55 PM	No an exceptionally mobile creature though. Prolly the worst i ran into in my years of Living Greyhawk was again....simplicity at it's best. An advanced (15hd) half-fiend Otyugh. For a 6-8th (APL 8, EL 12) level party, that is EXTREMELY deadly. Horrid Wilting -- ugh...2 party members die before anyone even gets a chance to do anything, and 2 others are bleeding out, leaving only two members (illusionist, and cleric). Plus you are fighting it in the sewers in 10' of sewage water...trying to balance on a foot-wide ledge. Yea..that's deadly. Thank goodness for the illusionist and low will saves for Otyughs. I find ppl try to overcomplicate things too much. Somtimes, simpler is better. Tellish The advanced mouther isn't mobile, but the Confusion effect and blindness help with that. I mean, individual PCs could easily escape, but they'd have to abandon half their party to certain death, and that's a choice few want to make. I like the Otyugh, though.
MindWandererB 02-27-07, 08:31 PM	Discussion continued here to keep the Prison clean: What ruling was given/allowed for psicrystals? Are they gaining HD advancement alongside their master?Really? I don't suppose familiars get this benefit as well, do they?The full ruling is in the Court Decisions. Psicrystals gain all the benefits of HD advancement except for skill points and HP, because the rules say they have "real" HD and don't state that they shouldn't get the normal benefits thereof. Familiars do have rules stating otherwise, so they only get what's in the book.
McJarvis 02-27-07, 09:25 PM	Discussion continued here to keep the Prison clean: The full ruling is in the Court Decisions. Psicrystals gain all the benefits of HD advancement except for skill points and HP, because the rules say they have "real" HD and don't state that they shouldn't get the normal benefits thereof. Familiars do have rules stating otherwise, so they only get what's in the book. Every time I hear of it, I find it my moral obligation to point out that this ruling is inconsistent with other CoCo court rulings. We rarely(this would be never if not for this ruling) go by the book when it's clear that there is a correlation between sources & the psionics section of the SRD is just being vague.
SauroGrenom 02-27-07, 09:54 PM	Every time I hear of it, I find it my moral obligation to point out that this ruling is inconsistent with other CoCo court rulings. We rarely(this would be never if not for this ruling) go by the book when it's clear that there is a correlation between sources & the psionics section of the SRD is just being vague.That's not true. We treat psi-like abilities different from spell-like abilities. For example overchannel does not increase ML whereas an orange ioun stone will increase CL on a spell like ability. Also there are clear "correlations" between metamagic and metapsionics by the same name, but metamagic rods do not effect psionics. There is no such thing as counter psionics. Psionic powers cannot be used to counterspell. There are surely a few other instances where similar mechanics are used in psionics as in other places in the rules, but psionics is different in some important details.
McJarvis 02-27-07, 09:58 PM	That's not true. We treat psi-like abilities different from spell-like abilities. For example overchannel does not increase ML whereas an orange ioun stone will increase CL on a spell like ability. Also there are clear "correlations" between metamagic and metapsionics by the same name, but metamagic rods do not effect psionics. There is no such thing as counter psionics. Psionic powers cannot be used to counterspell. There are surely a few other instances where similar mechanics are used in psionics as in other places in the rules, but psionics is different in some important details. Once again, if you had actually read what I was talking about you would understand I said nothing of transparency issues. :P ;)
MindWandererB 02-27-07, 10:02 PM	I think what McJ is trying to say is that psicrystals are basically like familiars in most ways, except that there's a bunch of relevant information that's missing. Rather than inferring that psicrystals are familiar-like in respect to those missing elements, we have inferred that they are like "normal" monsters instead. As a result, they're like familiars in some ways, and like normal monsters in others, when it would be just as easy to rule that they're like familiars in all respects except the specific flavor elements.
SauroGrenom 02-27-07, 10:49 PM	I did read his post. I think what he's saying is that in situations where the rules are vague with respect to psionics we have typically rules in a manner that follows a correlation that may be observable between psionics and another game element (familiars and psicrystals being the one exception). I was pointing out that this opinion is wrong. In several gray area's we have always ruled following the letter of the core rules (I gave a few examples). If that fails, then we fall back on balance considerations. But I cannot think of a single example where we've decided that some detail of psionics rules was "just the same" as the associated game element from another section of the rules. I can understand being critical of that way of dealing with rules problems. It sometimes leads to wonky things (like overly savvy mindless undead or intelligent magical beasts being "ridden" by diminutive crystals). *Shrug* I guess that's what you get when you have a certain critical mass of rules lawyers around. :angelhide
False_Keraptis 02-27-07, 10:56 PM	Psicrystals gain all the benefits of HD advancement except for skill points and HP, because the rules say they have "real" HD and don't state that they shouldn't get the normal benefits thereof. Familiars do have rules stating otherwise, so they only get what's in the book. Oy gevalt! That is positively hideous! The elders really should reconsider that one. One other (unrelated) thing about psicrystals: how do so many characters have them without taking the feat psicrystal affinity? I thought you had to take the feat if you wanted one.
Tellish_of_Ket 02-27-07, 11:00 PM	Oy gevalt! That is positively hideous! The elders really should reconsider that one. One other (unrelated) thing about psicrystals: how do so many characters have them without taking the feat psicrystal affinity? I thought you had to take the feat if you wanted one. Yes, but you have to remember, and i'm not meaning this as a slander, but some of the elders in the way back era that pushed that ludicrous rule in, were using it as such. I've always been against that very loose and liberal ruling. It should be as a familiar. Tellish
Zevox 02-27-07, 11:02 PM	Oy gevalt! That is positively hideous! The elders really should reconsider that one. Trust me, a lot of us think so as well, but some of the Elders are damn adamant about it. I think you can guess at least one of them based on the talks above your post ;) . One other (unrelated) thing about psicrystals: how do so many characters have them without taking the feat psicrystal affinity? I thought you had to take the feat if you wanted one. You do need to have the feat. If you see someone with a Psicrystal but not that feat, report them in the prison ASAP! Zevox
MindWandererB 02-27-07, 11:21 PM	I did read his post. I think what he's saying is that in situations where the rules are vague with respect to psionics we have typically rules in a manner that follows a correlation that may be observable between psionics and another game element (familiars and psicrystals being the one exception). I was pointing out that this opinion is wrong. In several gray area's we have always ruled following the letter of the core rules (I gave a few examples). If that fails, then we fall back on balance considerations. But I cannot think of a single example where we've decided that some detail of psionics rules was "just the same" as the associated game element from another section of the rules. I can understand being critical of that way of dealing with rules problems. It sometimes leads to wonky things (like overly savvy mindless undead or intelligent magical beasts being "ridden" by diminutive crystals). *Shrug* I guess that's what you get when you have a certain critical mass of rules lawyers around. :angelhideOoh... I think I was just led to the rule I've been looking for:Actually, it still very much a part of the core rules. As I stated, when 3.5 first came out, WotC stated that anything not changed in a ruling by the 3.5 rules is still valid from the 3.0 rules. Granted.....most of it changed, but there are still some things in there that can be used.Now: 1) The information on psicrystal BAB, feats, ability score bonuses is just plain missing. 2) Anything not changed between 3.0 and 3.5, either explicitly or by extension, is assumed to be the same as it was in 3.0. 3) In 3.0, psicrystals were treated like familiars in most ways. Some aspects of them were explicitly changed (like they're a feat now, rather than a class feature), but others were not mentioned at all. Conclusion: Any rule about psicrystals that is absent in the XPH, but was present in the 3.0 Psionics Handbook, should be assumed to work the same now as it did then. Unfortunately, I just donated my Psionics Handbook to Goodwill a couple of weeks ago, so I can't quote it verbatim... can anyone help me out here?
Vathelokai 02-27-07, 11:28 PM	I got your back on this one. I'll send a PM to Pitlords asap. Tellish :monk: :D
NiQil 02-28-07, 01:01 AM	So I get to be all giddy and happy tomorrow...finally dumping America Online and upgrading to high-speed cable internet...I can finally load the battles thread faster than 3 minutes per page. Score!
Zevox 02-28-07, 01:21 AM	@ NiQil - Welcome out of the Dark Ages ;) . @ Everyone - Okay, I'd like a little advice on something. I'm in the process of redesigning Annalina Vale in order to gear her towards becoming a Slayer instead of my previous plan of Assassin, as well as alter her race to human since Maenad isn't doing much for her (naturally psionic, a weak PLA, and a 3 round strength boost she'll never use vs bonus skill points and feat) and switch her from using her current rapier, handaxe, and whip for TWF to Kusari-Gamas. But I have a complete gap in her feat selection for her 1st level feat - I just can't find anything good to put in that slot. I'm to the point where I'm considering such minor feats as Dodge, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, or Point-Blank Shot (when shes specializing in two-weapon fighting) for it. So I'm wondering if anyone else can come up with a better idea for the feat. Her current situation is: CE Human Bard 1/Ranger 2/Wilder 1. 13 str, 18 dex, 12 con, 12 int, 8 wis, 16 cha. Feats: EWP (Kusari-Gama) [Human], (Blank) [1st], Track [Ranger], TWF [Ranger], Weapon Finesse [3rd]. Since shes not Psionic at level 1 and doesn't have bab +1, most of my preferences for such a slot for her (Speed of Thought, Psionic Weapon, Weapon Focus, Quick Draw) are unavailable, which is discouraging me. Anybody have a good idea for something? Zevox
Abyssal Stalker 02-28-07, 01:25 AM	Questlord wanted! Anyone care to pick a quest with a short notice? I'd like to quest with Jonathon for a cohort. :bump: Anyone?
MindWandererB 02-28-07, 01:32 AM	@Zevox: I hate to burst your bubble, but you have a bigger problem: Exotic WP also requires a +1 BAB. That being said, you can't take full advantage of the Kusari-Gama without the 13 Int for Combat Expertise. Surely you can get a prereq for something you'll want later on? Or <shudder>, go with a nonhuman. That's looking like a good stat array to be a wood elf to me.
NiQil 02-28-07, 01:35 AM	@ NiQil - Welcome out of the Dark Ages ;) . @ Everyone - Okay, I'd like a little advice on something. I'm in the process of redesigning Annalina Vale in order to gear her towards becoming a Slayer instead of my previous plan of Assassin, as well as alter her race to human since Maenad isn't doing much for her (naturally psionic, a weak PLA, and a 3 round strength boost she'll never use vs bonus skill points and feat) and switch her from using her current rapier, handaxe, and whip for TWF to Kusari-Gamas. But I have a complete gap in her feat selection for her 1st level feat - I just can't find anything good to put in that slot. I'm to the point where I'm considering such minor feats as Dodge, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, or Point-Blank Shot (when shes specializing in two-weapon fighting) for it. So I'm wondering if anyone else can come up with a better idea for the feat. Her current situation is: CE Human Bard 1/Ranger 2/Wilder 1. 13 str, 18 dex, 12 con, 12 int, 8 wis, 16 cha. Feats: EWP (Kusari-Gama) [Human], (Blank) [1st], Track [Ranger], TWF [Ranger], Weapon Finesse [3rd]. Since shes not Psionic at level 1 and doesn't have bab +1, most of my preferences for such a slot for her (Speed of Thought, Psionic Weapon, Weapon Focus, Quick Draw) are unavailable, which is discouraging me. Anybody have a good idea for something? Zevox If you take a ranger level as your first level, you could do weapon focus on the kusari-gama....since you are dual-wielding, it will count twice for you. Another option would be to switch weapon finesse to first, since if you have a ranger level first, you meet the +1bab requirement (same with weapon focus above), and then you could add in two weapon defense at 3rd. Another option that goes along with these is to switch weapon finesse to first and take speed of thought at 3rd when you are psionic...I guess that depends on whether you expect to build around using your focus or keeping your focus. Any of the three options above are workable, depending on the direction you want the character to go in...
NiQil 02-28-07, 01:36 AM	@Zevox: I hate to burst your bubble, but you have a bigger problem: Exotic WP also requires a +1 BAB. That being said, you can't take full advantage of the Kusari-Gama without the 13 Int for Combat Expertise. Surely you can get a prereq for something you'll want later on? Or <shudder>, go with a nonhuman. That's looking like a good stat array to be a wood elf to me. Not if he makes a ranger level his level 1...then he's fine. I also agree with MWB about the 13 Int....maybe swap Int and Str?
Zevox 02-28-07, 01:44 AM	@Zevox: I hate to burst your bubble, but you have a bigger problem: Exotic WP also requires a +1 BAB. Oh, crap, you're right! God damn. Ouch. I could always take Ranger as her first level I suppose, but that'll hurt her Bard skill points big time. Ouch ouch ouch. I'll need to rethink that. That being said, you can't take full advantage of the Kusari-Gama without the 13 Int for Combat Expertise. Surely you can get a prereq for something you'll want later on? Can't take full advantage? I'm not planning on having her use anything Combat Expertise would help with. No tripping, disarming only of wands or dorjes and only from a 10' distance to avoid AoOs. The Kusari-gamas are for the reach, which is more useful in my mind than the crit range of her rapier or the crit multiplier of her handaxe, and the fact that they give +2 to disarm, the same as her current whip, eliminating the need for switching weapons. They're just nice TWF weapons. Besides, she doesn't have a large number of feats, and since shes taking Leadership at level 6 and both of the TWF ones that give extra attacks with her off-hand weapon, she doesn't have many to spare, and the ones she does (aside from level 1) are all at high levels. Or <shudder>, go with a nonhuman. That's looking like a good stat array to be a wood elf to me. That first was sarcasm because many of characters are humans, wasn't it? Meh, anyway, Wood Elf doesn't seem worth it. Lose a feat, lose int and bonus skill points (I really like all the skills she gets), lose con (already low), gain strength (which she doesn't really use), gain useless miscellaneous skill boosts. All that really helps her is the boost to dex, the sleep immunity (stops being useful past level 4), and the boost to saves vs enchantment (not much of a help since she'll have 3 classes with good will save progression). I'll go with human, thanks. Edit: And besides, she'd have problems with favored class using that. Ranger is stopping at 2, but Wilder is going to at least 4. Human prevents that problem from cropping up. Zevox
Zevox 02-28-07, 01:53 AM	Could you still add our loser rewards? Missions give that, unlike quests. I think. No, they don't. Also, @ TM, just something I remembered about missions as Sauro was running mine that you might want to be aware of for the future, they don't require random monster rolls. Thats operations, which are miniquests. Zevox
Zevox 02-28-07, 01:56 AM	If you take a ranger level as your first level, you could do weapon focus on the kusari-gama....since you are dual-wielding, it will count twice for you. Yeah, if I don't dump the kusari-gamas, I think thats probably what I'll do. It'll be nice to offset the two levels shes taking that lose her bab (1st in bard and wilder). Another option would be to switch weapon finesse to first, since if you have a ranger level first, you meet the +1bab requirement (same with weapon focus above), and then you could add in two weapon defense at 3rd. Two-Weapon Defense? Nah - shes getting a much better shield bonus using Force Screen. Another option that goes along with these is to switch weapon finesse to first and take speed of thought at 3rd when you are psionic...I guess that depends on whether you expect to build around using your focus or keeping your focus. That one would be doable too, since shes not really doing anything with her focus until/unless she takes a metapsionic feat at high levels (I haven't planned her that far in advance). Probably not worth it instead of the weapon focus considering her Bard levels give her Expeditious Retreat already though. Zevox
Abyssal Stalker 02-28-07, 02:04 AM	Oh? But missions must be part of the 3FC, right? I though that everything that is done in the lines of 3FC gives you rewards. What about operations? I'm pretty sure that I remember something about getting loser rewards for some guild-related stuff. I might remember wrong, of course...
Zevox 02-28-07, 02:16 AM	Oh? But missions must be part of the 3FC, right? I though that everything that is done in the lines of 3FC gives you rewards. What about operations? I'm pretty sure that I remember something about getting loser rewards for some guild-related stuff. I might remember wrong, of course... Nope, not operations either. Nada, nothing. They differ from normal quests/miniquests only in the ways laid out specifically in the Guild rules, and rewards aren't among them. As for the 3FC thing, in-cycle miniquests don't give you rewards either. Nothing says you have to gain rewards when in the middle of a cycle. Zevox
Zevox 02-28-07, 02:52 AM	Okay then, finished my remake of Annalina, and I'll be switching her when I can scrape together the 5 credits to start her at level 4 (off to look through some characters to put up some prison posts again I guess). Wound up switching to having Ranger at level 1, taking Weapon Focus as her 1st-level feat, and accepting the skill loss. Its annoying that I finally had to give up on her using hide or move silently at all, since its a loss to the RP of her being an assassin, but she wasn't going to be able to do anything with them in the arena anyway, so I guess its not that bad. If anyone's interested (or wants to double-check for rules stuff or suggestions), heres what I came up with: Annalina Vale Your funeral dirge is begun. Female Human (RP: Maenad) Chaotic Evil Ranger 2/Bard 1/Wilder 1 [ECL 4] XP/TNL: 6,300/10,000 [6,300 start] Height 6’2, Weight 159 lbs, Age 22 (RP: 47) Assassin of the EAST HABARI TRADE COMPANY Deity: Beshaba (Goddess of Bad Luck, Misfortune, Random Mischief, and Accidents) http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/fp_gallery/fp2/Beshaba_p92.jpghttp://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/fp_gallery/fp2/Beshaba_symbol.jpgActivities this week: None. Fight 1 Time Between Fights: hrs Prebuffs/Ongoing Effects: Items Used: Spells or Powerpoints Used: x/day Abilities Used: Free Activity: STR...13 [+1]...(5 pts) DEX...18 [+4]...(13 pts) [17, +1level] CON...12 [+1]...(4 pts) INT....12 [+1]...(4 pts) WIS...8 [-1]...(0 pts) CHA...16 [+3]...(10 pts) Hit Points: 23 [4 HD] [8Rng + 3.5Brd + 4.5Rng + 3.5Wld +(1*4)con] AC 19 [+4dex, +5armor], Touch 14, Flat 15 [+4shield Force Screen] [+5armor Mithril Chain Shirt (+1)] Initiative: +4 [4dex] BAB/Grap: +2/+3 [+2bab, +1str] Speed 30 ft [+30 ft Expeditious Retreat] Saves: Fort +4 [3Rng, +0Brd, +0Wld, +1con] Refl +9 [3Rng, +2Brd, +0Wld, +4dex] Will +3 [0Rng, +2Brd, +2Wld, -1wis] [+1 resistance spell, +1 morale vs charm/fear Inspire Courage] Attacks: Deep Crystal Kusari-Gama +8 melee, 1d6+1 [20/x2] [10’ reach] [2bab, +4dex, +1MW, +1focus] Mundane Crystal Kusari-Gama +8 melee, 1d6+1 [20/x2] [10’ reach] [2bab, +4dex, +1MW, +1focus] Mundane Crystal Composite Longbow (str+1) +7 ranged, 1d6+1 [20/x3] [110’ range] [2bab, +4dex, +1MW] Two-Weapon Fighting Deep Crystal/Mundane Crystal Kusari-Gamas +6/+6 melee, 1d6+1/1d6 [20/x2] [10’ reach] [2bab, +4dex, +1MW, +1focus, -2TWF] Special Attacks Disarm: Kusari-Gama +10 (+8TWF) [2bab, +4dex, +1MW, +1focus, +2kusari-gama (-2 TWF)] Conditional Attack Modifiers +2 damage melee and ranged vs humans. +2 damage insight melee and ranged Offensive Prescience. +1 morale attack/damage melee and ranged Inspire Couarge. +2d6 damage for 2pp Deep Crystal. Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Kusari-Gama) [Human] Weapon Focus (Kusari-Gama) [1st lvl] Track [Ranger 1] Weapon Finesse [3rd level] Two-Weapon Fighting [Ranger 2] [b]Human Racial +4 skill points 1st level. +1 skill point per level. Bonus feat. Favored Class: Any (Ranger) Ranger Class Favored Enemy (Human) (+2 to damage, bluff, listen, sense motive, spot, and survival vs humans.) Track (Bonus Feat) Wild Empathy (As diplomacy, but on animals. Add Ranger level and charisma modifier.) Combat Style: Two-Weapon Fighting (Bonus Feat) Bard Class Bardic Music 1/day - Countersong (Use Perform check instead of save against sonic or language-dependant effects.) - Fascinate (Fascinate one creature within 90’ with performance. Useless in arena.) - Inspire Courage +1 (+1 attack and damage and saves vs charm and fear effects while singing. Does not require concentration.) Bardic Knowledge (General Knowledge of anything, add Bard level and int modifier.) Wilder Class Wild Surge +1 (Increase ML by 1 when manifesting, augment power for free.) Psychic Enervation (5% chance during Wild Surge, lose 1pp/level and dazed until end of next turn.) Special Abilities: Favored Enemy (Human) Wild Empathy +5 Bardic Music 1/day - Countersong - Inspire Courage +1 Bardic Knowledge +2 Wild Surge +1 Skills (40Rng, 8Brd, 6Wld): +8 Balance [4rnks, +4dex] [4RngCC, 2Wld] +8 Climb [7rnks, +1str] [7Rng] +5 Concentration [4rnks, +1con] [4Rng] +10 Craft (Exotic Blades) [7rnks, +1int, +2circumstance] [7Rng] [Make Money: (10+10)*4 = 80 gp] +11 Escape Artist [7rnks, +4dex] [4RngCC, 2Brd, 3Wld] +4 Hide [0rnks, +4dex] +6 Jump [5rnks, +1str] [5Rng] +5 Knowledge (Dungeoneering) [4rnks, +1int] [4Rng] -1 Listen [0rnks, -1wis] [+2 vs humans] +4 Move Silently [0rnks, +4dex] +6 Perform (Haunting Flute) [3rnks, +3cha, +2circumstance] [3Brd] +2 Psicraft [1rnk, +1int] [1Wld] +2 Spellcraft [1rnk, +1int] [1Brd] -1 Spot [0rnks, -1wis] [+2 vs humans] +10 Tumble [4rnks, +4dex, +2synergy] [4RngCC, 2Brd] Speaks Common, Maenad. Bard Spells Known: [2] [CL 1st] [Spell levels: 0; Cast: All] 0: [DC 13] Light, Resistance, Detect Magic, Mending. Wilder Powers Known [1] [ML 1st] [PP: 3; Use: 1] 1: [DC 14] Vigor. Buffs and Prefight actions: Address Powerstones and decipher Scrolls. Pray to Beshaba. Equipment: Assasin’s Outfit +1 Mithril Chain Shirt [10 lbs][2,100 gp] Deep Crystal Kusari-Gama [3 lbs][1,010 gp] Mundane Crystal Kusari-Gama [3 lbs][310 gp gp] Mundane Crystal Composite Longbow (str+1) [3 lbs][500 gp] Quiver with 60 arrows [9 lbs][3 gp] Wooden Holy Symbol of Beshaba [0 lbs][1 gp] Scroll Case [1/2 lbs][1 gp] Belt Pouch (Miscellaneous Items, Powerstones, & Potions) [1/2 lbs][1 gp] Miscellaneous Items in Belt Pouch: Masterwork Haunting Flute [3 lbs][100 gp] Wand of Cure Light Wounds (50 charges) [CL 1st] [.1 lb][750 gp] Scrolls in Scroll Case: Scroll of Expeditious Retreat (3 castings) [CL 2nd] [0 lbs][50 gp per spell] Scroll of Mirror Image [CL 3rd] [0 lbs][150 gp] Powerstones & Potions in Belt Pouch: 2x Potion of Protection from Evil [CL 1st] [.1 lb each][50 gp each] Powerstone of Force Screen (3 uses) [ML 2nd] [0 lbs][50 gp per use] Powerstone of Offensive Prescience (3 uses) [ML 2nd] [0 lbs][50 gp per use] Powerstone of Synsthete (2 uses) [ML 2nd] [0 lbs][50 gp per use] Expendables: 800/800 gp Equipment at Home: Gold: 69 gp Masterwork Bladesmith’s Tools [5 lbs][55 gp] Miscellaneous Statistics: Encumbance: 0-50 (light), 51-100 (medium), 101-150 (heavy) Weight carried: 32.3 lbs Character Background Default Tactics None: Tactics sent individually. Fights results: (tot. 0 xp) None: 1st pending. 1: (Name of opponent), (Name of player): (win/loss) [+?? XP] [+?? gold] Past Expenditures (tot. 5,631 gp): 5,700 gp start Expenses XX/XX/2006 (Creation) - 2,100 gp +1 Mithril Chain Shirt - 1,010 gp Deep Crystal Kusari-Gama - 310 gp Mundane Crystal Kusari-Gama - 500 gp Mundane Crystal Composite Longbow (str+1) - 3 gp 60 arrows - 1 gp Wooden Holy Symbol of Beshaba - 1 gp Scroll Case - 1 gp Belt Pouch - 750 gp Wand of Cure Light Wounds - 150 gp Scroll of Expeditious Retreat (3 castings) [CL 2nd] - 150 gp Scroll of Mirror Image [CL 3rd] - 150 gp Powerstone of Force Screen (3 uses) [ML 2nd] - 150 gp Powerstone of Offensive Prescience (3 uses) [ML 2nd] - 100 gp Powerstone of Synsthete (2 uses) [ML 2nd] - 100 gp 2x Potion of Protection from Evil - 100 gp Masterwork Haunting Flute - 55 gp Masterwork Sladesmith’s Tools Total Difference: 69 gp None.
MindWandererB 02-28-07, 03:00 AM	Just one strange rule: you can make anything out of deepcrystal, but for some reason, you can only use mundane crystal to make things ordinarily made out of metal. So no mundane crystal bows. All those cross-class ranger skills are just... depressing.
Zevox 02-28-07, 03:12 AM	Just one strange rule: you can make anything out of deepcrystal, but for some reason, you can only use mundane crystal to make things ordinarily made out of metal. So no mundane crystal bows. All those cross-class ranger skills are just... depressing. Huh - you're right. I've been giving mundane crystal bows to a number of my characters for a while to avoid Warp Wood complications, but never realized that or had anyone point it out. Off to fix those then... And yeah, she wound up with a lot of those. Not many Ranger skills worth investing in over those. Handle Animal she has no use for since shes taking Leadership, Heal isn't useful without knowledges for common characters, hide and MS I dumped since I wasn't going to be able to keep them anywhere near high enough to be of use, search is only good here with open locks, spot and listen are basically useless when shes going to pick up Touchsight stones later on, and most of the other skills would only be useful if I wanted her to have the scout package. I'd rather have tumble, escape artist, and the ability to move up and along buildings in the city and the canopy in the forest easily. Zevox
McJarvis 02-28-07, 07:16 AM	I was pointing out that this opinion is wrong. In several gray area's we have always ruled following the letter of the core rules (I gave a few examples). ...except all of the examples you gave are either clearly covered in transparancy rules or we decided to not "add on" more things(such as in the case of overchannel/dispel.) In the case of psi-crystals, we just ruled to give them feats even though it leads to circumstances that make absolutely no sense & it is pretty d-mn obvious that this isn't how they're supposed to be handled. This is inconsistent because most, if not all CoCo rulings are actually very well thought out & don't result in characters that look like retarded opti-monkey gang bangers. I can understand being critical of that way of dealing with rules problems. It sometimes leads to wonky things (like overly savvy mindless undead or intelligent magical beasts being "ridden" by diminutive crystals). This is largely(IMO) because the ruling sides often have a direct interest in the rule in question. Some elders(and I mean this in the sense of "old CoCo regulars) seem to have a good grasp of the idea of a search for truth, others seem to be more in search of rules they can actively abuse & legalize so they can further abuse them. (even if those rules were nonexistent in the first place) :rolleyes: To anyone new watching-> Don't get me wrong though. CoCo is way cool fun la! :D This is just a discussion I have to have with the elders once every other month so I don't go crazy :)
McJarvis 02-28-07, 08:16 AM	This is inconsistent because most, if not all CoCo rulings are actually very well thought out & don't result in characters that look like retarded opti-monkey gang bangers. On my way to work I decided I really ought to say this outloud rather than just imply it in the above quoted section. (and thus why I'm dedicating another post to it) I really do respect the Elders(meaning the people who make decisions around here) & believe that the vast (emphasis: vast) majority of the decisions they make are correct and fair. At this point in time I would not even dream of desiring to be one, because to be quite honest-> I'm afraid to make many of the judgements they have had to. So my complaints should be taken in this light. I don't think CoCo is corrupted to it's core or anything-> I just think a few key rulings have been tainted & then upheld because it's easier to make a ruling than to change it.
Macbrea 02-28-07, 08:51 AM	Too be honest, We as a community make decisiions on rules based off popular opinion. And sometime those collective decisions annoy members of our community. It is very much like a home game. You have a DM that has to make on the spot rulings very quickly. We have the advantage here of having weeks to review our on the spot decisions. This results in overturning and twisting of them. The same thing occurs all the time in the FAQ. WoTC makes a decision on something is suppose to happen one way or the other. They then come to the conclusion later that ruling is against the rules and change it. We are using both our own rulings on topics and WoTC's rulings. As a result, things look inconsistant. Mal-2 once, told me one of the biggest problems with CoCo that he had was the inconsistancies of our rulings. We read some rules literal and too the exacting letter of how the rule was written. While other things we try to read in the spirit of the rules. This results in us having some really flaky rulings.
Caterane 02-28-07, 11:20 AM	Hi guys, I'm sitting at an internet cafe right now so I have to make it quick. I've moved to another city and won't have internet access until tomorow noon. For that reason we have to postpone pairings by 24 hours. The new deadline is Thursday 9 PM CET. Cat
McJarvis 02-28-07, 11:22 AM	Hi guys, I'm sitting at an internet cafe right now so I have to make it quick. I've moved to another city and won't have internet access until tomorow noon. For that reason we have to postpone pairings by 24 hours. The new deadline is Thursday 9 PM CET. Cat Cat...I'm not sure what you think of me, but I must confess I find it _incredibly_ cool that you're at an internet cafe. I wish we had internet cafes near me :*( [I used to hang out at them all the time, but since I moved a few months ago I've been feeling a bit of emptiness in my heart...] Sorry to hear the deadline will be post-poned...but...this means I can pick up a certain fight that's been held over 3 weeks...
Caterane 02-28-07, 11:32 AM	Well, I would be dissapointed if there wouldn't be any internet cafes in Central Berlin ;)
SauroGrenom 02-28-07, 12:01 PM	Well, I would be dissapointed if there wouldn't be any internet cafes in Central Berlin ;)I visited Berlin once... Back in college about 10 years ago. The place was covered in cranes. Construction everywhere. I recall no internet cafe's at that time, but honestly I was a different person then. I was more interested in hash (found it at a bar named Scoof). There was one huge construction site at Alexander Platz. The Wall once went right through their, so after the Wall came down things started to change. They even had a museum with a model of what it would look like when they were done. The subway rocked, large parts of east Berlin were still showing damage from WWII, and my German vocabulary was small enough that ordering off the menu was dangerous. I remember getting a pigs hoof on a plate... Another time we thought we were getting cheese and crackers (sounds safe enough), but it was toast and a little crock of some kind of thick white grease (like cold bacon grease). :yuck:
Caterane 02-28-07, 12:15 PM	Yes Berlin was the biggest construction site in the world in the 90s; I too remember the armada of cranes. You have to keep in mind that the whole of the former GDR (Communistic East Germany) was technically still in the 50s and we had to raze everything there and rebuild.
Rauul 02-28-07, 12:35 PM	Yes Berlin was the biggest construction site in the world in the 90s; I too remember the armada of cranes. You have to keep in mind that the whole of the former GDR (Communistic East Germany) was technically still in the 50s and we had to raze everything there and rebuild. last time i was in Berlin Was 3 months before the wall came down, and it was a great place to visit back then.
TelinArtho 02-28-07, 12:49 PM	Okay - another quick question about uncertain areas of the rules: Any racial skill adjustments of the lycanthrope’s base race and its animal form (but not conditional adjustments) are added to its skill modifiers in any form. Skills: Dire rats have a +8 racial bonus on Swim checks. Dire rats have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened. Dire rats use their Dexterity modifier for Climb and Swim checks. Okay - clearly to me the +8 for swim and climb apply. What I am not so sure about is: a) whether the were-dire rat can take 10 while climbing (in hybrid form) b) whether the were-dire rat can use his dex mod for climbing and swimming (in hybrid form)
Rauul 02-28-07, 12:50 PM	selling items is worth 50% of market value correct? (getting ready to level and finish off a 3 fight cycle and wanna get every thing ready since there will be hardly any time to get ready before hand)
TelinArtho 02-28-07, 12:59 PM	selling items is worth 50% of market value correct? (getting ready to level and finish off a 3 fight cycle and wanna get every thing ready since there will be hardly any time to get ready before hand) correct
McJarvis 02-28-07, 01:00 PM	Could a lycanthrope magey-type use alterself or polymorph and then turn into a hyrbrid of the polymorphed' form & the animal it belongs to, or is the hyrbrid form considered "fixed"? What about in combination with Polymorph any object? ==> No intent to play a char this way regardless of answers, just curious.
TelinArtho 02-28-07, 01:02 PM	That question depends on the result of this question: Can you polymorph/alter self into a templated creature? I believe the current answer is no.
McJarvis 02-28-07, 01:05 PM	That question depends on the result of this question: Can you polymorph/alter self into a templated creature? I believe the current answer is no. Technically you would be polymorphing into something, and then using a shapechange ability to apply a template to it. Does the order not matter in the spirit of things?
Abyssal Stalker 02-28-07, 01:13 PM	I think changing shape would result in the spell ending. The description of Baleful Polymorph gives a hint of this: ...and a creature with the shapechanger subtype (such as a lycanthrope or a doppelganger) can revert to its natural form as a standard action (which ends the spell’s effect)...
Rauul 02-28-07, 01:22 PM	And purchising a wand of Spectral hand costs 5 credits and the gold value? edit => Nevermind 4500 gold is a little out of my range..
Macbrea 02-28-07, 01:31 PM	Yes Berlin was the biggest construction site in the world in the 90s; I too remember the armada of cranes. You have to keep in mind that the whole of the former GDR (Communistic East Germany) was technically still in the 50s and we had to raze everything there and rebuild. Yeah, I never got a chance to see Berlin. My job made it illegal for me to approach within 10km of the wall. As a result, I wasn't allowed to travel to Berlin for the Pink Floyd concert when the wall came down.
Macbrea 02-28-07, 01:37 PM	Okay - another quick question about uncertain areas of the rules: Okay - clearly to me the +8 for swim and climb apply. What I am not so sure about is: a) whether the were-dire rat can take 10 while climbing (in hybrid form) b) whether the were-dire rat can use his dex mod for climbing and swimming (in hybrid form) Actually, I don't think you get either of them. This is a factor of movement modes. Climb A creature with a climb speed has a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks. The creature must make a Climb check to climb any wall or slope with a DC of more than 0, but it always can choose to take 10 even if rushed or threatened while climbing. The creature climbs at the given speed while climbing. If it chooses an accelerated climb it moves at double the given climb speed (or its base land speed, whichever is lower) and makes a single Climb check at a -5 penalty. Creatures cannot run while climbing. A creature retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) while climbing, and opponents get no special bonus on their attacks against a climbing creature. A dire rat has a climb speed of 20ft. This is the quote on movement for lycanthropes. Speed Same as the base creature or base animal, depending on which form the lycanthrope is using. Hybrids use the base creature’s speed. So, I have a feeling in hybrid form your not suppose to gain the benefits of the climb speed.
Rauul 02-28-07, 01:37 PM	ok i need a math major (to many drugs as youngen) to do some work for me... since i am so confused it isn't funny.. level 4, ne Cleric with a 12 cha (+1) and Diplomacy 7 (6+1) can get what as an ally.. if he wanted to?
TelinArtho 02-28-07, 01:42 PM	Actually, I don't think you get either of them. This is a factor of movement modes. A dire rat has a climb speed of 20ft. This is the quote on movement for lycanthropes. So, I have a feeling in hybrid form your not suppose to gain the benefits of the climb speed. Well, that doesn't answer the latter part for the swim at the very least, and it still doesn't address the question about using dex for swim or climb. EDIT - and although it doesn't give the movement modes, this is still listed as a racial bonus - so I would think the climb bonus still applies (he just couldn't climb at 20ft in hybrid form and would still lose his DEX to AC in hybrid form).
MindWandererB 02-28-07, 01:59 PM	The racial bonus is a side effect of having a Climb speed, for that one. Otherwise, the rat would actually have +16 Climb (since racial bonuses stack). They also can't take 10 while climbing for the same reason. Because the Dex for Climb and Swim is listed in the Skills section, rather than in special qualities, I think it should be treated as a skill modifier.
TelinArtho 02-28-07, 02:10 PM	So just to be clear - you feel the dex modifier to climb and swim is okay in all forms? (just want to be sure - don't want to have to modify the character for misunderstandings later...)
MindWandererB 02-28-07, 02:18 PM	So just to be clear - you feel the dex modifier to climb and swim is okay in all forms? (just want to be sure - don't want to have to modify the character for misunderstandings later...) It's with a slightly sour taste in my mouth--it's not actually a racial skill "bonus," but it's certainly not a conditional modifier and it's not a special quality. Hold on... we're talking about a wererat! That one's already in the rules, why are we debating this? Skills: A wererat in rat or hybrid form uses its Dexterity modifier for Climb or Swim checks. It has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened.And based on the stat block, that +8 bonus applies only when it has a Climb speed, i.e. in rat form. Although I can't figure out how they got the exact numbers they did....
TelinArtho 02-28-07, 02:22 PM	Good point - I wasn't originally working with a wererat... so I forgot that I could reference the template entry...
MysticMonk2005 02-28-07, 02:49 PM	Hey all. So in the interest of getting back in the game for the Iron Man Tourny I'm wanna re-activate, so the question is are we currently doing one or two characters for free?
TelinArtho 02-28-07, 02:51 PM	Two - and welcome back
McJarvis 02-28-07, 02:58 PM	WANTED Mission Lords! Pay: 2o per week & great job satisfaction! If I'm wrong on this rate, I'm sorry..but I believe it is the rate for Quests per week Details: The Loyalists are looking for a two dedicated Mission Lords. We will be running two groups of characters almost every week from now until eternity(or until someone stops us!) An active interest in RPing is strongly desired since the primary function of these perminant "monster hunting" teams will be to develop storyline for The Loyalists. There are two groups: One involving three characters, the other involving two. Exact details of these groups are pending. Expected start date is March 14(Iron Man delays dependant) Our probable routine will be 3-weeks of missions, then a short 1->2 week break to either have characters craft things or give the Mission Lord a break if s/he needs one. One group of characters will need EL 5 missions to start, the other will need EL 6 missions. If interested, please PM either McJarvis or Guildmaster_LOY.
MindWandererB 02-28-07, 03:04 PM	Welcome back indeed, good to see you. We've managed to avoid a State of Emergency for a good long while, now, so it is indeed two activations for free--but remember that a miniquest counts as two all by itself.
MysticMonk2005 02-28-07, 03:08 PM	Mmm good to know, the miniquest thing is new. And thanks to the delay I can activate both Lissa and Tueor now! So ECL9 wizards beware lest u become the next one round pincussion ^_^
Tellish_of_Ket 02-28-07, 03:11 PM	Mmm good to know, the miniquest thing is new. And thanks to the delay I can activate both Lissa and Tueor now! So ECL9 wizards beware lest u become the next one round pincussion ^_^ Welcome back dude. I just came back last week myself. Saw a day or two of turmoil, then the agressor seemed to dissappear. So all is good again. Tellish
Sindorin 02-28-07, 04:34 PM	Watch out - there are a lot more new rules besides the miniquests... good hunting and welcome back.
sonofzeal 02-28-07, 04:46 PM	A few questions... 1) How do I submit articles to the newspaper? 2) In the real world, a bow string is useless when wet. Can Create Water be used over someone's bow to temporarily disable it? 3) Let's say a Psion wears a chain shirt; they're not proficient, so they'd take a -2 when using their crossbow, and also probably when using ray powers, because the armor hampers their ability to move in combat. But what about Control Object? It's an auto-success to manifest it on a nearby rock, and sending it flying towards their skull shouldn't depend on your ability to move. For spells/powers requiring attack rolls for which the caster/manifester is not the origin of the attack, I would think that logically the ACP on attack rolls shouldn't apply. What say the elders?
TelinArtho 02-28-07, 04:55 PM	A few questions... 1) How do I submit articles to the newspaper? 2) In the real world, a bow string is useless when wet. Can Create Water be used over someone's bow to temporarily disable it? 3) Let's say a Psion wears a chain shirt; they're not proficient, so they'd take a -2 when using their crossbow, and also probably when using ray powers, because the armor hampers their ability to move in combat. But what about Control Object? It's an auto-success to manifest it on a nearby rock, and sending it flying towards their skull shouldn't depend on your ability to move. For spells/powers requiring attack rolls for which the caster/manifester is not the origin of the attack, I would think that logically the ACP on attack rolls shouldn't apply. What say the elders? 1. Send them to Abyssal Stalker 2. "useless when wet" is subjective. Archers have little problems in the rain - but they obviously wouldn't want to soak their bowstrings. In other words - temporary water isn't likely to do much. If you find a way to encapsulate the water around the bowstring for an extended period of time - maybe I'll consider it. Regardless - that's not in the rules and would be complicated to adjudicate specifically. 3. ACP applies on attack rolls when you are not proficient in armor. If you make an attack roll - I don't see why this shouldn't be the case.
False_Keraptis 02-28-07, 04:55 PM	Unfortunately, I just donated my Psionics Handbook to Goodwill a couple of weeks ago, so I can't quote it verbatim... can anyone help me out here? Your wish is my command. Here is what the 3.0 SRD has to say about psicrystals, at least according to this page. (http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html) Psicrystal: A psion can encode a psicrystal. Doing so takes a day and requires materials that cost 100 gp (the gem used as the basis for the psicrystal represents at least 50% of the total cost). A psicrystal is a psionically charged crystalline stone no more than 1 inch in diameter. It carries a fragment personality seeded from the psion’s own mind, with which the psion can empathically interact and from which he or she can derive benefits. A psion may possess no more than one psicrystal at any one time. The psion chooses the type of psicrystal he or she gets. As the psion increases in level, his or her psicrystal also increases in utility, as shown on Table: Psicrystal Special Abilities. If the psicrystal is destroyed the psion must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 15). If the saving throw fails, the psion loses 200 experience points per class level. A successful saving throw reduces the loss by half. However, a psion’s experience can never go below 0 as the result of a psicrystal’s destruction. A destroyed psicrystal cannot be replaced for six months. Psicrystals A psicrystal grants a special ability to its psion owner depending on the fragment personality seeded in the stone. Physically, psicrystals have AC 13, hardness 8, and 20 hit points. Psicrystals “regenerate” their crystal matrix at rate of 2d4 hit points per day if damaged. If a psicrystal is brought to 0 hit points, it is destroyed. Table: Psicrystals Psicrystal Personality Special ----------- ------- Artiste Owner gains +2 bonus on Craft checks. Bully Owner gains +2 bonus on Intimidate checks. Coward Owner gains +2 bonus on Hide checks. Friendly Owner gains +2 bonus on Diplomacy checks. Hero Owner gains +2 bonus on Fortitude saves. Liar Owner gains +2 bonus on Bluff checks. Meticulous Owner gains +2 bonus on Search checks. Observant Owner gains +2 bonus on Spot checks. Poised Owner gains +2 bonus on Balance checks. Resolve Owner gains +2 bonus on Will checks. Sage Owner gains +2 bonus on any one knowledge skill he or she already knows; once chosen, this does not vary. Singleminded Owner gains +1 bonus on Concentration checks. Sneak Owner gains +2 bonus on Move Silently checks. Sympathetic Owner gains +2 bonus on Sense Motive checks. Psicrystal Personality Descriptions: All psicrystals have distinct personalities. Psicrystal Ability Descriptions: All psicrystals have special abilities that depend on the level of the owner. These abilities are cumulative. Table: Psicrystal Special Abilities Psion Psicrystal Level Intelligence Special ----- ------------ ------- 1–2 6 Sighted, empathic link 3–4 7 Telepathic link 5–6 8 Self-propulsion 7–8 9 Speak with other creatures 9–10 10 1–12 11 Power resistance 13–14 12 Sight link 15–16 13 Channel power 17–18 14 19–20 15 Intelligence: The psicrystal’s Intelligence score. Psi¬crystals are smart, but their personality trait colors all empathic, telepathic, or verbal interaction. Sighted: A psicrystal can sense its environment as well as a sighted, hearing creature can. Darkness (even supernatural darkness) is irrelevant, as are areas of supernatural silence, though a psicrystal still can’t discern invisible or ethereal beings. The psicrystal’s sighted range is 40 feet. Empathic Link: The psion has an empathic link with his or her psicrystal to a distance of up to one mile. Psions cannot see using the psicrystal’s sighted ability, but they can communicate empathetically. The empathic link between a psicrystal and its owner limits communication to strong feelings, so misunderstandings are always possible. Telepathic Link: The psion has a telepathic link with his or her psicrystal to a distance of up to one mile. Psions cannot see using the psicrystal’s sighted ability, but they can communicate telepathically. The telepathic link allows actual communication. Psicrystals know all the languages their psion owners know. Self-Propulsion: If the psion pays the cost of 1 power point, his or her psicrystal forms spidery, ectoplasmic legs for a day. The legs grant the psicrystal a speed of 30 feet. The psicrystal can climb walls and ceilings with its legs at a speed of 20 feet. The legs fade to nothingness when their duration expires, or if the psicrystal takes 1 or more points of damage that penetrate its hardness. Speak with Other Creatures: The psicrystal can communicate mentally with its owner, other creatures, or psicrystals within 60 feet, using any language known to its psion owner (other creatures must speak aloud to return communication, except for the owner and other psicrystals). Power Resistance: The psicrystal’s power resistance (PR) equals the psion owner’s level plus 5. To affect the psicrystal with a power, an enemy manifester must make a manifester check (1d20 + enemy’s manifester level) at least equal to the psicrystal’s power resistance. The psicrystal’s spell resistance (SR) equals its power resistance. Sight Link: Once per day, the psicrystal’s owner can see what the crystal sees for a period of 1 hour, as long as the psion and the crystal are not separated by more than one mile. Channel Power: The psion can manifest powers through the psicrystal to a distance of up to one mile. The psicrystal is treated as the power’s originator, and all ranges are calculated from that location. When channeling a power through his psicrystal, the psion manifests the power by paying its cost. The psion is still subject to attacks of opportunity and other hazards of manifesting a power, if applicable. I couldn't find anything there that explicitly disallows the psicrystal nonsense, but perhaps someone more experienced will have better luck. Even if not, popular opinion and common sense still militate against this ruling.
Zevox 02-28-07, 04:56 PM	2) In the real world, a bow string is useless when wet. Can Create Water be used over someone's bow to temporarily disable it? While I nice idea, considering theres nothing in the rules to cover this, don't expect anyone to accept it as a viable tactic. 3) Let's say a Psion wears a chain shirt; they're not proficient, so they'd take a -2 when using their crossbow, and also probably when using ray powers, because the armor hampers their ability to move in combat. But what about Control Object? It's an auto-success to manifest it on a nearby rock, and sending it flying towards their skull shouldn't depend on your ability to move. For spells/powers requiring attack rolls for which the caster/manifester is not the origin of the attack, I would think that logically the ACP on attack rolls shouldn't apply. What say the elders? Telin already answered this, but I just thought I'd add that most Psions would just buy a Mithril Chain Shirt and avoid that complication entirely ;) . Zevox
MindWandererB 02-28-07, 05:02 PM	Your wish is my command. Here is what the 3.0 SRD has to say about psicrystals, at least according to this page. (http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html) <snip> I couldn't find anything there that explicitly disallows the psicrystal nonsense, but perhaps someone more experienced will have better luck. Even if not, popular opinion and common sense still militate against this ruling.Damn, there's nothing in there about hit dice. Since the fact that the psicrystal uses its master's HD is apparently an addition to the rules, we can't make the extraoplation I wanted.
sonofzeal 02-28-07, 05:06 PM	Damn, there's nothing in there about hit dice. Since the fact that the psicrystal uses its master's HD is apparently an addition to the rules, we can't make the extraoplation I wanted. Hmm... if it uses the master's HD, and is a fragment of the master's mind, could we also say that the feats it gains are the same as what the master took? There would still be some potential for interresting combos, but it would also reduce some of the more obvious cheese.
MindWandererB 02-28-07, 05:13 PM	Hmm... if it uses the master's HD, and is a fragment of the master's mind, could we also say that the feats it gains are the same as what the master took? There would still be some potential for interresting combos, but it would also reduce some of the more obvious cheese. Are you kidding? That would increase the cheese immensely! Imagine if Mssr. Hood's psicrystal had his feats, and something to do with them (like a custom item of Crystal Shard). Ick.
Milov 02-28-07, 07:30 PM	Sorry to hear the deadline will be post-poned...but...this means I can pick up a certain fight that's been held over 3 weeks... I -think-, think mind you, that you mean Mask vs. Rauul? Or is there some other fight that's been held over that I'm not seeing? (Only asking to know if I should be forwarding tactics or not, really ;) )
McJarvis 02-28-07, 08:17 PM	I will pick up the masked man fight if the tactics get to me within an hour or so. :) I should have stated this earlier today-> but I thought that the setup was already posted.
Zevox 02-28-07, 08:22 PM	I will pick up the masked man fight if the tactics get to me within an hour or so. :) I should have stated this earlier today-> but I thought that the setup was already posted. It is - sort of. Sjiggie dropped the tactics over in the FotW thread here. Zevox
McJarvis 02-28-07, 08:28 PM	It is - sort of. Sjiggie dropped the tactics over in the FotW thread here. Zevox Good. Running now.
McJarvis 02-28-07, 08:55 PM	Good. Running now. Start: 1:28 <--time that I was made aware of tactics End: 1:58 <--last edit on fight, results are up Time to finish fight: 30 minutes from tactics received to fight posted. :cool: Telin is right-> it's stupid that fights like these are not getting picked up by week 2(it wouldn't have been picked up by me if Cat hadn't delayed the deadline by a day)
Milov 02-28-07, 09:13 PM	Heh, I didn't notice the tactics were up already. Time to go check out the fight.
Rauul 02-28-07, 11:48 PM	Heh, I didn't notice the tactics were up already. Time to go check out the fight. Mask 1 vs Rauul 1, as Rauul runs head first into ECL 4 away from the masked bug
Tellish_of_Ket 03-01-07, 12:33 AM	would MENTAL RESISTANCE [GENERAL], almost totally nulify matter agitation? Since Matter Agitation isn't a specified energy dmg, i would gain DR 3/- vs MA correct? Tellish
Abyssal Stalker 03-01-07, 01:01 AM	A few questions... 1) How do I submit articles to the newspaper? 2) In the real world, a bow string is useless when wet. Can Create Water be used over someone's bow to temporarily disable it? 3) Let's say a Psion wears a chain shirt; they're not proficient, so they'd take a -2 when using their crossbow, and also probably when using ray powers, because the armor hampers their ability to move in combat. But what about Control Object? It's an auto-success to manifest it on a nearby rock, and sending it flying towards their skull shouldn't depend on your ability to move. For spells/powers requiring attack rolls for which the caster/manifester is not the origin of the attack, I would think that logically the ACP on attack rolls shouldn't apply. What say the elders? 1) At the moment, I haven't had too much time to put up an issue, but I'll try. I already have one article from MWB waiting... So patience, if it doesn't show up too soon...
Abyssal Stalker 03-01-07, 01:14 AM	Questlord wanted! Anyone care to pick a quest with a short notice? I'd like to quest with Jonathon for a cohort. One more try. If no one wants it, I guess I'll take my shots and ask for a random questlord...
MindWandererB 03-01-07, 02:49 AM	would MENTAL RESISTANCE [GENERAL], almost totally nulify matter agitation? Since Matter Agitation isn't a specified energy dmg, i would gain DR 3/- vs MA correct? Tellish I would toss this in the category of Obvious Oversights by WotC. Does anyone want to argue that Matter Agitation does not cause fire damage?
Tellish_of_Ket 03-01-07, 06:56 AM	I would toss this in the category of Obvious Oversights by WotC. Does anyone want to argue that Matter Agitation does not cause fire damage? If i pitlord a fight, guaranteed it will do dire dmg. Whether there's errata or not. But going just by precedents, it's always been run as a nameless energy. Which for some reason, i just don't understand how. lol. K, i'm safely going to assume, that it is fire dmg. Tellish
hogarth 03-01-07, 07:07 AM	If i pitlord a fight, guaranteed it will do dire dmg. Whether there's errata or not. But going just by precedents, it's always been run as a nameless energy. Where is this precedent?
Tellish_of_Ket 03-01-07, 07:31 AM	Where is this precedent? At the time i was around, i know ppl tried to use resist energy fire to defend and it was loudly booed...by the ppl using matter agitation. lol. I just remember a few fights where the source of dmg wasn't named. But it IS fire dmg. Let there be no mistake. Tellish
McJarvis 03-01-07, 07:48 AM	I'll back ToK on this-> I ran a matter agitation themed character when I first came to CoCo way back in the day. It was ruled that the type of damage was not fire damage not only because it's not named as such, but because the name of the power itself infers that the reason it hurts is that the atoms in your skin/flesh are being moved around and ripped apart. It may feel like burning-> but there is no heat involved(except minor amounts from friction?)
Vathelokai 03-01-07, 07:50 AM	If i pitlord a fight, guaranteed it will do dire dmg....Sweet! Can a get the energy substitution (Dire) feat?
McJarvis 03-01-07, 07:51 AM	Sweet! Can a get the energy substitution (Dire) feat? Energy Substitution(Direct Damage)? O_O
Tellish_of_Ket 03-01-07, 07:53 AM	Sweet! Can a get the energy substitution (Dire) feat? lol...typo. Meant FIRE.
McJarvis 03-01-07, 08:01 AM	Energy Substitution(Direct Damage)? O_O lol...typo. Meant FIRE. Aw :(. I was just assuming you were infallible, but lazy.
SauroGrenom 03-01-07, 08:47 AM	the atoms in your skin/flesh are being moved around... ...there is no heat involved(except minor amounts from friction?) That my friend is the very definition of temperature...in the real world that is. Friction (or anything else for that matter) does not create heat by any mechanism other than the increase of kinetic energy and motion of molecules. That's how you define temperature, as the average kinetic energy of a group of molecules. This however may or may not have any relevance to what the rules say and the way we are going to use them.
McJarvis 03-01-07, 10:16 AM	That my friend is the very definition of temperature...in the real world that is. Friction (or anything else for that matter) does not create heat by any mechanism other than the increase of kinetic energy and motion of molecules. Note, however, that I allowed for this in what I said...but the damage itself is not necesasrily going to be from heat, nor does the fact that the matter is "moving" mean that it is moving enough to cause enough heat to cause damage. In the end, it's the ripping&tearing of existing structures that will cause the damage(according to the spell, since it doesn't specify damage type)
hogarth 03-01-07, 10:52 AM	Note, however, that I allowed for this in what I said...but the damage itself is not necesasrily going to be from heat, nor does the fact that the matter is "moving" mean that it is moving enough to cause enough heat to cause damage. In the end, it's the ripping&tearing of existing structures that will cause the damage(according to the spell, since it doesn't specify damage type) According to the spell, it "heat[s the target] to the point of combustion" and "skin burns and hair ignites". Nope, no mention of fire in there. ;)
Macbrea 03-01-07, 10:59 AM	Define sonic damage or force damage. Matter agitation is an untyped damage as per the description. In truth, it is should be very similar to sonic damage.
TelinArtho 03-01-07, 11:01 AM	Well, my latest odd creation is up. Comments are welcome - and yes I know she has issues... Weela Elf Natural Wererat Druid 1 (ECL5)
hogarth 03-01-07, 11:01 AM	Define sonic damage or force damage. Matter agitation is an untyped damage as per the description. In truth, it is should be very similar to sonic damage. Sound causes combustion and can ignite hair? Maybe at a Whitesnake concert... EDIT: Oops...I meant Great White, as Telin points out below.
McJarvis 03-01-07, 12:00 PM	According to the spell, it "heat[s the target] to the point of combustion" and "skin burns and hair ignites". Nope, no mention of fire in there. ;) Exactly...fire damage is all damage that is done from temperatuers above combustion temps ;) Regardless, I'm merely re-stating what the arguements were back in the day. Now of days I'm better off with it being fire damage.... <_< >_>
TelinArtho 03-01-07, 12:03 PM	Great White you mean... or was it White Lion... (I thought we were Quiet Riot...)
Erithmu 03-01-07, 12:24 PM	Well, my latest odd creation is up. Comments are welcome - and yes I know she has issues... Weela Elf Natural Wererat Druid 1 (ECL5) So ... glassjaw ... I mean vs melee or archer primaries fine ... but wizard/blaster = death Your hp are off 8 + 4.5 + 4 con = 16 Also since you are natural Lycan shouldn't your first HD be the dire rat not the druid for skill purposes? Those are my gut reactions ... I could see some help w/ Tattoos of chameleon, but yea ... you know she has issues, I think she might have too many...
TelinArtho 03-01-07, 12:30 PM	The hp are correct - you get the con bonus of your animal side only for the animal HD. I'll have to check the skills - but every lycanthrope I've seen takes the regular HD first. I'll go back and recheck Besthirah and Luni's Were-eagle (and any others I can find...) As to her weaknesses, I'm hoping her touch AC will be enough to worry less about ray attacks (and other touch-type attacks - trips, grapples, etc), her saving throws are decent versus non-damage spells and against area effect damaging spells - that's why she has the resist energy spells. I'm mostly just playing around with the idea at the moment. I'm fully aware that in most cases LA just doesn't mix well with casters, but I'm just exploring possibilities that I haven't seen yet...
hogarth 03-01-07, 01:05 PM	If I'm the pitlord for a miniquest, I'm not required to roll on the encounter tables for the opponent, am I? My understanding is that I can use any opponent(s) of the appropriate EL whether they're on the list or not.
Zevox 03-01-07, 01:08 PM	If I'm the pitlord for a miniquest, I'm not required to roll on the encounter tables for the opponent, am I? My understanding is that I can use any opponent(s) of the appropriate EL whether they're on the list or not. Unless the miniquest is a Guild Operation, no you're not required to do that. For Guild Operations you are though. Zevox
TelinArtho 03-01-07, 01:19 PM	Also since you are natural Lycan shouldn't your first HD be the dire rat not the druid for skill purposes? Racial Skills: A lycanthrope adds skill points for its animal Hit Dice much as if it had multiclassed into the animal type. It gains skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die of the animal form. It would appear according to this that the animal skill points are never the first HD.
MindWandererB 03-01-07, 01:33 PM	I would toss this in the category of Obvious Oversights by WotC. Does anyone want to argue that Matter Agitation does not cause fire damage?Define sonic damage or force damage. Matter agitation is an untyped damage as per the description. In truth, it is should be very similar to sonic damage.I'll back ToK on this-> I ran a matter agitation themed character when I first came to CoCo way back in the day. It was ruled that the type of damage was not fire damage not only because it's not named as such, but because the name of the power itself infers that the reason it hurts is that the atoms in your skin/flesh are being moved around and ripped apart. It may feel like burning-> but there is no heat involved(except minor amounts from friction?)LOL... I stand corrected. In that I assumed no one was going to argue what I thought was obvious, I mean--I still stand by my call. Oh, Courtroom....
TelinArtho 03-01-07, 01:48 PM	For bloodlines - what's the CL of the SLA's for the ones that have them? (eg Produce Flame 1/day for the Efreet bloodline) Okay - how about the oversized weapon feature of the titan bloodline... does that "stack" with powerful build from the half-giant? Meaning a medium-sized character could weild a huge-sized weapon without penalty.
Zevox 03-01-07, 01:53 PM	For bloodlines - what's the CL of the SLA's for the ones that have them? (eg Produce Flame 1/day for the Efreet bloodline) Since there doesn't seem to be a specification of this in the Bloodline rules, I'd assume it uses the default rules for SLAs, which means caster level = creature's HD. Zevox
MindWandererB 03-01-07, 02:16 PM	Okay - how about the oversized weapon feature of the titan bloodline... does that "stack" with powerful build from the half-giant? Meaning a medium-sized character could weild a huge-sized weapon without penalty.It's not so much an issue of stacking, because they function differently. Powerful Build: You are considered +1 size for your weapons. Oversized Weapon: When using a weapon for a size category 1 larger than you are, you take no attack roll penalty, but the weapon still moves up a size category (light->1-handed->2-hended). I would say, yes, they "stack," because they do different things. (Unlike Powerful Build + Monkey Grip, which explicitly do not stack.)
Tellish_of_Ket 03-01-07, 02:50 PM	Since it's not already in the list of courtroom decisions, can i ask for an elder vote on the Matter Agitation issue? That way we can compile it in the first post and lay the issue to rest once and for all? 1) Fire typed dmg 2) unnamed (ie. can't use resist energy or similar psionic feats to apply DR) Tellish (doudtbul i get a vote, but i'd vote 1, if it's any concilation) Current Status: 1) 2 votes 2) 0 votes Voters thus far: MWB, TelinArtho
TelinArtho 03-01-07, 02:52 PM	I'd say 1.
Zevox 03-01-07, 02:57 PM	Put me down for 1 too. It describes heating something to the point of combustion (i.e. bursting into flame). Heat and combustion = fire damage. Edit: Not that I'm an Elder if you're only counting their votes (as I notice it looks like), but it can't hurt to toss my opinion into the mix here, eh? Zevox
hogarth 03-01-07, 03:04 PM	I was looking at the newly de-randomized monster tables, and I noticed a problem. The EL 3 table has a variety of entries (from 79-100) with 2 CR 2 creatures, but that's actually an EL 4 encounter. Oops.
Macbrea 03-01-07, 03:27 PM	Isn't two CR 2 = EL 3? Anyways, I have a silly question can a character after creation take a bloodline? Just was noting that Izumi would be very neat as Titan bloodline Half-Giant Fighter/Psi-warrior. :P
hogarth 03-01-07, 03:29 PM	Isn't two CR 2 = EL 3? Not according to this: http://www.d20srd.org/encounterCalculator.htm Similarly, it claims that 3 CR 2 creatures are EL 5, but they're in our EL 4 table. How are we calculating the Encounter Levels for the tables? Anyways, I have a silly question can a character after creation take a bloodline? Reginald Molehusband did; Cat seemed to think it was O.K.
Macbrea 03-01-07, 03:31 PM	I think the problem might come in that she is already level 7. Half-giant Fighter 2/Psiwarrior 4. Taking Major bloodline requires that levels 3 and 6 be titan bloodline levels.
hogarth 03-01-07, 03:32 PM	I think the problem might come in that she is already level 7. Half-giant Fighter 2/Psiwarrior 4. Taking Major bloodline requires that levels 3 and 6 be titan bloodline levels. In that case (where you already missed the bloodline levels), I'd say it would require a rebuild.
Macbrea 03-01-07, 03:34 PM	In that case (where you already missed the bloodline levels), I'd say it would require a rebuild. Too expensive... 10 credits for bloodline + 25 credits to get back to same buiild isn't worth it.
TelinArtho 03-01-07, 03:40 PM	Not according to this: http://www.d20srd.org/encounterCalculator.htm Similarly, it claims that 3 CR 2 creatures are EL 5, but they're in our EL 4 table. How are we calculating the Encounter Levels for the tables? Well the encounter calculator you point out is correct and not at the same time. Take a look at the chart for figuring out encounters in the Rules thread here: ----------------Number of creatures--------------- EL| 1 2 3 4 5-6 7-9 10-12 Mixed ________________________________________ _____________ 1| 1,2 | 1/2| 1/3 | 1/4 | 1/6 | 1/8 | 1/8 |1/2+1/3 2| 2,3 | 1 |1/2,1| 1/2 | 1/3 | 1/4 | 1/6 | 1+1/2 3| 3,4 | 1,2| 1 |1/2,1| 1/2 | 1/3 | 1/4 | 2+1 4| 3,4,5 | 2 | 1,2 | 1 |1/2,1| 1/2 | 1/3 | 3+1 5| 4,5,6 | 3 | 2 | 1,2 | 1 | 1/2 | 1/2 | 4+2 6| 5,6,7 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1,2 | 1 | 1/2 | 5+3 Note that for 2 creatures at EL3 - the CR should be either 1 or 2; for 3 creatures at EL4 the CR should be either 1 or 2. This is a DM balancing factor though - as a DM should be able to gauge whether a particular CR1 monster is "tough" for his CR while a CR2 monster might be "weak" for his CR. Reginald Molehusband did; Cat seemed to think it was O.K. That was an exception - not a rule. Cat rewarded you for some work if I remember correctly - offering a bloodline on an existing character. For Izumi - I don't think that would work without a complete rebuild. MacBrea - you might be able to take the 10 credit cost and "add" two levels to Izumi to cover the 3rd and 6th level bloodline additions. That would of course be at the discretion of Cat though - and I would suggest bringing it up with him. Heck if you argue well, you might be able to convince him to charge you only the 10 credits for the bloodline itself on the claim that you are adding the bloodline due to a "recent" rules change... good luck with that though :)
hogarth 03-01-07, 03:48 PM	Well the encounter calculator you point out is correct and not at the same time. Take a look at the chart for figuring out encounters in the Rules thread here: Note that for 2 creatures at EL3 - the CR should be either 1 or 2; for 3 creatures at EL4 the CR should be either 1 or 2. This is a DM balancing factor though - as a DM should be able to gauge whether a particular CR1 monster is "tough" for his CR while a CR2 monster might be "weak" for his CR. Personally, I'd rather see those entries changed to a CR 2 + a CR 1 instead of two CR 2's (for instance, an imp + a lemure instead of 2 imps, a satyr plus a grig instead of 2 satyrs, etc).
TelinArtho 03-01-07, 03:52 PM	Well - write up the modifications to the table that you think are warranted, post them to the council thread with reasoning and there should be little complaint. If you remove the troll weret-rex at the same time, I bet no one would argue (well, maybe some... I would... I actually like that little beastie...).
hogarth 03-01-07, 03:58 PM	If you remove the troll weret-rex at the same time, I bet no one would argue (well, maybe some... I would... I actually like that little beastie...). Yeah, maybe we should replace it with a phrenic ogre weretyrannosaurus instead. --Oops, that's EL 11. Maybe a half-fiend gnoll were-legendary-tiger.
MindWandererB 03-01-07, 04:10 PM	Well the encounter calculator you point out is correct and not at the same time. Take a look at the chart for figuring out encounters in the Rules thread here: Note that for 2 creatures at EL3 - the CR should be either 1 or 2; for 3 creatures at EL4 the CR should be either 1 or 2. This is a DM balancing factor though - as a DM should be able to gauge whether a particular CR1 monster is "tough" for his CR while a CR2 monster might be "weak" for his CR.Also notice that by that table, you can make an EL 4 encounter with 1 CR 3, 4, or 5 creature. We need to be a little more precise. To get that precision, an EL 3 encounter should consist of 1 CR 3, a CR 2 and a CR 1, or 3 CR 1 creatures. If no one gets to it before I do (March 7 or later), I'll fix it along with the EL 11-15 charts. Hoo.
Macbrea 03-01-07, 04:17 PM	Hey, if you want a good hard tough fight for the EL 11 league.. The Fiendish Half-Blue Dragon Black Ooze. Might be alittle rough.. :P Curious how rough their breath is if you split them 10 or so times before they breath..
Hirumajoe 03-01-07, 04:19 PM	Yeah, maybe we should replace it with a phrenic ogre weretyrannosaurus instead. --Oops, that's EL 11. Maybe a half-fiend bugbear were-legendary-tiger. Still too high. Legendary Tigers have 26 HD. Need a legendary bear or 1 cr less base creature. I'd probably go with a Half-celestial Lizard Folk were-legendary-tiger for a 60' fly speed and 38 35 SR. Able to actually catch those pesky wizards with double base speed flight. Edit: Forgot the 35 SR cap on half-fiend/celestials.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-01-07, 04:46 PM	@Laundrygnome: Welcome in making a character. I just took a quick peek at ur guy (didn't audit or anything), and if i can make a suggestion of making ur mithril chain +1, to be just mithril chain, and grab a wand of entangle that would help u tons with ur archery. just my two cents. after a couple of fights you can upgrade it to +1 again. Tellish
Macbrea 03-01-07, 04:48 PM	Heh, Cannot just grab a wand of entangle. It's not on the list and therefore costs credits.
hogarth 03-01-07, 04:49 PM	@Laundrygnome: Welcome in making a character. I just took a quick peek at ur guy (didn't audit or anything), and if i can make a suggestion of making ur mithril chain +1, to be just mithril chain, and grab a wand of entangle that would help u tons with ur archery. A wand of Entangle isn't on the list of DMG wands, so it would cost credits.
Macbrea 03-01-07, 04:50 PM	I still wish wands were open to any spell which was allowed to be in them!
Tellish_of_Ket 03-01-07, 04:50 PM	A wand of Entangle isn't on the list of DMG wands, so it would cost credits. hehe..i suk. my bad... Tellish
MindWandererB 03-01-07, 04:51 PM	I still wish wands were open to any spell which was allowed to be in them! And at any CL, and with any metamagic... Silis would love a CL5 wand of sonic substituted Shocking Grasp....
sonofzeal 03-01-07, 05:24 PM	(edit - found it) Oh, and how does reach for oversized weapons work? Say a Half-Giant (5 ft reach) is using a Large Spiked Chain (on a large creature, 20 ft reach). How far away can he hit things? Or take HalfGiant Psiwarrior16 with the Titan Bloodline (ECL20). He manifests Expansion to go up to Huge, and his Spiked Chain is now Colossal. What's his reach with it? And for the mathematically inclined, how many medium-sized gladiators could he hit in one whirlwind attack? And are there any official rules for base land speed increasing as you go up sizes?
SauroGrenom 03-01-07, 05:39 PM	Reach is determined by your size, not the size of the weapon you wield. Land speed does not go up with size.
TelinArtho 03-01-07, 05:40 PM	Unless otherwise specified, a reach weapon can hit at double your natural reach but not within your normal reach as long as the weapon you are wielding is at least your size or larger and can be wielded by you. Some examples: A Human with a glaive - can attack up to 10ft away, but not opponents who are adjacent. An ogre with a large glaive - can attack at 15ft and 20ft, but not at 5ft and 10ft. An Ogre with a medium glaive - can attack at 5ft and 10ft - but not beyond that. An Ogre with a huge kusuri-gama - can attack at 5ft up to 20ft. Notable exceptions are the whip (gives reach out to 15ft) and the spiked chain and kusuri-gama (which both allow you to attack adjacent creatures and those at reach). Most of the effects that increase size have a note including whether it affects your land speed (and to answer - they almost never do).
Tellish_of_Ket 03-01-07, 05:52 PM	I still wish wands were open to any spell which was allowed to be in them! Craft Wands :P Tellish
MindWandererB 03-01-07, 06:07 PM	Craft Wands :P Tellish Still no. Credits or bust, even if you make it yourself.
sonofzeal 03-01-07, 06:22 PM	Reach is determined by your size, not the size of the weapon you wield. Land speed does not go up with size. I figured that under a rigid application of the rules both would be the case, but the physics of either make little to no sense to me. I've always played that, at least for bipeds, unless otherwise noted small=20, medium=30, large=40, etc. And the fact that your arm length doubles when using a reach weapon is somewhat disconcerting.
LaundryGnome 03-01-07, 06:33 PM	Briem Esala Could anyone check this out and make sure I've done everything properly? I'm not new to D&D, but posting everything so meticulously is not something I do regularly... Thanks!
Macbrea 03-01-07, 06:34 PM	Heh.. When I built Izumi she would have been built with the Titan blood line had I noticed. Ah, well. Anyways. The effect would have been alittle odd. As the Kusuri-gama is a tad odd. Kusuri-gama (Light weapon) Half-giant's Powerful build makes it Large weapon. Titan's ability brings it up to Huge. Expanded two times Brings the weapon upto Colossal. Err. You cannot actually use it Two times oversized because there is no rules for a Colossal++ weapon. Now, instead she is going to have to run into the problem of growing to Huge. Wielding a Colossal+ Kusuri-gama one handed. I may have to get her the two weapon fighting feat by then.
MindWandererB 03-01-07, 08:36 PM	Briem Esala Could anyone check this out and make sure I've done everything properly? I'm not new to D&D, but posting everything so meticulously is not something I do regularly... Thanks! Looks correct to my eye. Whether he'll do well is another story, but that's what experience is for.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-01-07, 10:19 PM	Still no. Credits or bust, even if you make it yourself. Perhaps another topic for the courts once we've settled the current debates. ;) lol ToK
Vathelokai 03-01-07, 11:42 PM	@whomever cares: sorry about delays with quests. Been off line for a few days due to sick baby. All is well now (well, maybe by tomorrow). Will get caught up asap.
Yitzi 03-01-07, 11:51 PM	I'm interested in joining, I've read a large portion of the rules, and I have a few questions: 1. Is there any time limit on how long a character can be inactive? e.g. can I play a character for a few months, leave for about a year, and then return? 2. Rules question regarding maps: The obstacles in the Cavern and Temple maps can be climbed, resulting in a sitting position, cover, and higher ground. The forest and city also have climbable features, but it does not say they grant those advantages. So is it possible to climb up to the roofs in the city or the canopy in the forest, and sit there without moving (and not need a balance check)? Also, is it possible to sit in the trees in the forest without going all the way up to the canopy? 3. Delaying question: If character 1 is a ranged fighter, who does not wish to move (e.g. they are behind cover, but in such a way that it does not provide cover against them), and character 2 is a melee fighter who uses full cover against that spot, then is this considered a delaying action by character 2 (since they are avoiding combat by staying behind cover, while character 1 desires combat, but does not want to give up their position to get it), or is it considered avoidance by both characters, and therefore not affected by the 10 round limit? In a more general form, if it is possible for one character to negate the other's avoidance techniques, but only by negating their tactical advantage or taking a tactical disadvantage, is this considered avoidance?
MindWandererB 03-02-07, 12:37 AM	I'm interested in joining, I've read a large portion of the rules, and I have a few questions: 1. Is there any time limit on how long a character can be inactive? e.g. can I play a character for a few months, leave for about a year, and then return? 2. Rules question regarding maps: The obstacles in the Cavern and Temple maps can be climbed, resulting in a sitting position, cover, and higher ground. The forest and city also have climbable features, but it does not say they grant those advantages. So is it possible to climb up to the roofs in the city or the canopy in the forest, and sit there without moving (and not need a balance check)? Also, is it possible to sit in the trees in the forest without going all the way up to the canopy? 3. Delaying question: If character 1 is a ranged fighter, who does not wish to move (e.g. they are behind cover, but in such a way that it does not provide cover against them), and character 2 is a melee fighter who uses full cover against that spot, then is this considered a delaying action by character 2 (since they are avoiding combat by staying behind cover, while character 1 desires combat, but does not want to give up their position to get it), or is it considered avoidance by both characters, and therefore not affected by the 10 round limit? In a more general form, if it is possible for one character to negate the other's avoidance techniques, but only by negating their tactical advantage or taking a tactical disadvantage, is this considered avoidance?Nice to meet you! 1) No problem--though you may find the rules have undergone substantial revision given an absence of that length. We have three or so players that have been gone for a year or so that returned just recently, mostly for the Iron Man. 2) Well, the Forest is currently undergoing some rules revision, but what you suggest will probably be true. As for the City, yes, you can sit on a roof without a balance check, although would would still be considered "balancing," and thus lose your Dex modifier to AC if you lack 5 ranks in the skill. 3) It can be a difficult call sometimes. If neither is willing to relocate in such a way as to allow combat, then the pitlord has to make a call as to which one is in greater violation. Sometimes that call can be very difficult, so it's best when designing a character to give them options, so they're not forced to use such tactics.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-02-07, 02:28 AM	Question: Blasphemy vs ECL ? Scenario: half-dragon (3HD) bugbear 3th barbarian (ECL 10, (6HD)) runs into an priest in a bad mood. He casts blasphemy (CL 13). Result: 1) equivalent to "up to caster level -5" effect. 2) the hafl-dragons ecl count towards defense vs blasphemy and it's just "up to caster level -1" effect. ? ToK **EDIT Blasphemy says its based on HD. LA is not HD, so it doesn't count. The Barbarian levels are, however, and so do. Zevox Exactly what i thought...but just wanted to make sure. thx.
Zevox 03-02-07, 02:35 AM	Blasphemy says its based on HD. LA is not HD, so it doesn't count. The Barbarian levels are, however, and so do. Zevox
False_Keraptis 03-02-07, 02:43 AM	Question: do temporary hp stabilize a character that is bleeding out? Suppose someone drops into negative hp, then receives a virtue spell. 1) Does he stop bleeding? 2) If so, does he start again when the spell wears off? Thanks.
MindWandererB 03-02-07, 02:45 AM	Question: do temporary hp stabilize a character that is bleeding out? Suppose someone drops into negative hp, then receives a virtue spell. 1) Does he stop bleeding? 2) If so, does he start again when the spell wears off? Thanks. Unless the character was at -1 and is now at 0, he continues dying. Since temp HP isn't actually healing, it will only stop the process of dying if the character is no longer at negative HP.
Rauul 03-02-07, 03:41 AM	is there a rule someplace about starting a charater at middle age, -1str,dex,con, +1int,wis,cha?
Tellish_of_Ket 03-02-07, 03:46 AM	is there a rule someplace about starting a charater at middle age, -1str,dex,con, +1int,wis,cha? phb. page 109
Rauul 03-02-07, 03:56 AM	phb. page 109 i ment about costing credits or any thing wierd here at CoCo
Zevox 03-02-07, 04:02 AM	i ment about costing credits or any thing wierd here at CoCo Nope - you can go ahead and start them at any age you want, taking the appropriate penalties and bonuses for older characters. Some of our Wizards and Psions have tried using old age for int boosts with some success in the past. Zevox
Rauul 03-02-07, 04:19 AM	Nope - you can go ahead and start them at any age you want, taking the appropriate penalties and bonuses for older characters. Some of our Wizards and Psions have tried using old age for int boosts with some success in the past. Zevox Thanks, now how about an Earth Mephit for an Improved Familiar, or does a level 7 wizard NE have to use the Ice Mephit as listed in the SRD or can they choose any of the mephits?
Vathelokai 03-02-07, 08:46 AM	Thanks, now how about an Earth Mephit for an Improved Familiar, or does a level 7 wizard NE have to use the Ice Mephit as listed in the SRD or can they choose any of the mephits? THat has come up for debate 2 or 3 times in the elders thread. I think an alternate type of mephit might slide in, though it would need elder or gm approval. When I get time, and things die down in the elders threads, I'm going to bring that rule up again and try to work out a system for more familairs (and custom spells while I"m at it.)
sonofzeal 03-02-07, 09:20 AM	How does tripping interact with mounted opponents? If a mount is tripped, does the rider end up prone and out of the saddle? Can a rider be tripped and end up prone beside their mount?
TheMagister 03-02-07, 09:58 AM	How does tripping interact with mounted opponents? If a mount is tripped, does the rider end up prone and out of the saddle? Can a rider be tripped and end up prone beside their mount? 1) If a mount is tripped, the rider can make a soft fall Ride Check (DC 20?) to end up prone next to his/her mount. If the Ride check fails, they take 1d6 falling damage and end up prone next to their prone mount. 2) A rider can be tripped normally. A riding defender can substitute a ride check (+2 circumstance bonus given by a military saddle, if applicable) for the Str/Dex opposed roll, if he or she desires. If a defending rider fails and is tripped, they end up prone beside their standing mount. TM
hogarth 03-02-07, 10:21 AM	Is a gladiator allowed to keep miniquesting to join a guild until he succeeds?
TheMagister 03-02-07, 10:40 AM	Yep. Once per level (I think that's the limit on miniquests), but don't quote me on that limitation.
hogarth 03-02-07, 10:43 AM	Yep. Once per level (I think that's the limit on miniquests), but don't quote me on that limitation. But miniquests to join a guild don't count towards the limit. So could you (in theory) miniquest a hundred times in a row for guild entry until you succeed?
TelinArtho 03-02-07, 10:58 AM	Yes - that is allowed. I argued to allow that when Faelto failed her re-entry into TLT. It just didn't make much sense to force her to wait a whole level just to try again. Bear in mind - a failed miniquest costs you resources while not giving any in return (no loser rewards...), so there's no benefit to failing a guild entry...
hogarth 03-02-07, 11:24 AM	Yes - that is allowed. I argued to allow that when Faelto failed her re-entry into TLT. It just didn't make much sense to force her to wait a whole level just to try again. Bear in mind - a failed miniquest costs you resources while not giving any in return (no loser rewards...), so there's no benefit to failing a guild entry... An unscrupulous player with a psionic gladiator could deliberately fail guild miniquests (using no resources) as the first one or two fights of his cycle, and then have a large number of power points available for his third fight. I don't imagine any guildmaster would stand for that sort of chicanery, though. I'm also thinking of Reginald Molehusband. He's fairly weak if he doesn't bring any of his silly allies. But if there's no penalty for losing a guild miniquest, I don't think I'd bother taking them; they'd only lower his rewards.
TelinArtho 03-02-07, 11:28 AM	Okay - I stand corrected - there are benefits for those trying to exploit the system - I just didn't think about them because I wouldn't have done them myself...
Yitzi 03-02-07, 11:52 AM	An unscrupulous player with a psionic gladiator could deliberately fail guild miniquests (using no resources) as the first one or two fights of his cycle, and then have a large number of power points available for his third fight. Wouldn't he do better to not go on miniquests, and deliberately fail the first two normal fights of the cycle? That way, he would also be able to use full PP for the third fight, plus get loser rewards for the first two.
hogarth 03-02-07, 11:56 AM	Wouldn't he do better to not go on miniquests, and deliberately fail the first two normal fights of the cycle? That way, he would also be able to use full PP for the third fight, plus get loser rewards for the first two. Your power rating and win/loss ratio go down if you lose fights (if you care about those sorts of things). Not so for quests/miniquests.
UserNamer 03-02-07, 12:03 PM	To buy a light warhorse with selected feats it costs 100gp/feat, is this still allowed, and does it raise the CR? or do I need to pay credits?
UserNamer 03-02-07, 12:10 PM	Another question: Can I advance a wolf with just 1HD, so that it's CR wont raise? becouse it's CR raises every 3HD, and also every size category.
SauroGrenom 03-02-07, 12:18 PM	Another question: Can I advance a wolf with just 1HD, so that it's CR wont raise? becouse it's CR raises every 3HD, and also every size category. Yes. This is a common trick.
UserNamer 03-02-07, 12:27 PM	Yes. This is a common trick. is this possible with any ally I can get(the ones that can advance) or just animals? should I get it advanced already, or can I advance it after the miniquest?
hogarth 03-02-07, 12:42 PM	Yes. This is a common trick. Hmm...I had assumed that CRs for advanced creatures were rounded up, not down.
Zevox 03-02-07, 12:43 PM	To buy a light warhorse with selected feats it costs 100gp/feat, is this still allowed, and does it raise the CR? or do I need to pay credits? Its not allowed at level 3 (no custom allies allowed there), but anywhere else you can do it. No CR raise, no credit cost. Another question: Can I advance a wolf with just 1HD, so that it's CR wont raise? becouse it's CR raises every 3HD, and also every size category. Yes, though you'll be paying credits for that since its not an ally you can buy. is this possible with any ally I can get(the ones that can advance) or just animals? should I get it advanced already, or can I advance it after the miniquest? Yes, its possible with any ally. With diplomacy allies you won't be allowed to advance it after the quest (due to those reducing the rewards for the quest that gets them), but with others it is allowed. With purchased ones note that it will cost credits in addition to the normal gold cost to advance them after the fact, since its effectively a change to an already-made purchase. Zevox
Macbrea 03-02-07, 01:38 PM	Got a question: If Izumi buys Spell Resistance (13) for her Mithril full plate +1. Can she later go back and raise that to Spell Resistance (15) at the cost of +1 more enhancement or does she have to sell the whole armor and buy new armor to raise the Spell Resistance?
TheMagister 03-02-07, 01:40 PM	Enchanting in stages has always been allowed before. I see no reason why it would change now. TM
TelinArtho 03-02-07, 01:40 PM	I would consider that an upgrade - so it would only be the cost of the difference between the two. That said, I would not allow upgrades Pearls of Power - which is an entirely different scenario (in my opinion)
Macbrea 03-02-07, 01:44 PM	Was looking at the fact she will be at 9k gold if she wins the monster fight. I think adding SR 13 might help some at her current level. It means about 25% of the spells hitting her should just fail if cast by a pure caster. And in CoCo, we use alot of multi-class characters.
Yitzi 03-02-07, 01:55 PM	A few more questions: 1. Starting at what point before the first fight of the 3-cycle are you unable to buy equipment? 2. At what points in the cycle can you hire mercenaries? 3. If a caster leaves a spot blank, when is the last point to fill that slot for an upcoming fight? 4. Is a DMG/MM required to run miniquests/quests/campaigns? If not, where would I find the needed info not in the SRD? 5. Is there any way besides running miniquests/quests/campaigns and auditing/correcting sheets to earn credits at a significant rate (i.e. not counting the 2/year for birthday)? The article in the Rules section seems to be outdated, since it still mentions value for maps.
Erithmu 03-02-07, 02:01 PM	A few more questions: 1. Starting at what point before the first fight of the 3-cycle are you unable to buy equipment? 2. At what points in the cycle can you hire mercenaries? 3. If a caster leaves a spot blank, when is the last point to fill that slot for an upcoming fight? 4. Is a DMG required to run miniquests/quests/campaigns? 5. Is there any way besides running miniquests/quests/campaigns and auditing/correcting sheets to earn credits at a significant rate (i.e. not counting the 2/year for birthday)? 1. Normally Wednesday deadline time. 2. Merc hiring involves a PM to Pitlords and including a link the the Merc on your sheet (and title bar notification) 3a. Arcane: Only between fights, so after Wednesday Deadline if you edit your sheet you lose. 3b. Divine: Only at the start of your cycle, When you level up you can add new spells to open slots on the fly, but if a divine slot is blank, it is blank for the cycle 4. No, SRD normally works well enough 5. Pitlording a fight nets you 1 credit
Zevox 03-02-07, 02:02 PM	1. Starting at what point before the first fight of the 3-cycle are you unable to buy equipment? Before your first fight? You're free to buy stuff whenever you wish. Just note you cannot edit your sheet at all past the deadline for the pairings each week if you're set to ready. 2. At what points in the cycle can you hire mercenaries? Any time. 3. If a caster leaves a spot blank, when is the last point to fill that slot for an upcoming fight? I don't know if we ever clarified this, actually. Anyone else know? 4. Is a DMG required to run miniquests/quests/campaigns? Don't see why it would be. We have the xp chart in our rules thread, which is all I can see you absolutely needing out of it. 5. Is there any way besides running miniquests/quests/campaigns and auditing/correcting sheets to earn credits at a significant rate (i.e. not counting the 2/year for birthday)? Board administration - meaning being a Guildmaster/Guildlords/Prisonlords/Elder or similar position, but all of those are filled now. Pitlording regular fights. Other than that, not really, no. Zevox
Yitzi 03-02-07, 02:11 PM	How do you pitlord a fight? Also, what's the deal with frozen levels?
Erithmu 03-02-07, 02:23 PM	Everything you wanted to know about pitlording but were afraid to ask. Summary: PM Pitlords that you want to pitlord a fight. Then on Wednesday when the fights go up you will see a list of stuff that looks like this Sabra Marana (Etiquette_Gnome) vs. The Artificer (McJarvis) : Erithmu [Forest] (Although with more color and better formating) This lists the two gladiators that are fighting each other, They will PM you tactics for their character, and then you run the fight according to those tactics. Feel free to look through the battle's thread for common templates of how people pitlord. Your first time, take one fight and set about 4 hours aside for it. And get it up by Saturday, What happens then is that if there are any objections to the fight they will be posted in the Fight of the Week (FotW) thread. As a pitlord you do have a final say on any gray area stuff, but everyone makes mistakes. Some mistakes have no effect on the outcome of the fight (winner only solidifies position) while some may have major swings that cause the fight to have a different outcome. If you are worried about it, run a character for a couple of weeks and get into the swing of the CoCo, then you will have a better idea of how to react to certain situations. Frozen levels: Frozen levels gain no XP, as if they did there are not enough gladiators at that level to support moving up the tree. Following the Iron Man Tourney (Starting Mar 14th.) the leagues will open up to ECL 15 at first, and when ECL 15 starts to fill up, then we may run another Ironman, or just open up all the leagues.
McJarvis 03-02-07, 02:23 PM	Board administration - meaning being a Guildmaster/Guildlords/Prisonlords/Elder or similar position, but all of those are filled now. Pitlording regular fights. Other than that, not really, no. Zevox Finding legitimate errors on characters sheets is a pretty good way now. .3o per mini-audit.
Zevox 03-02-07, 02:28 PM	Finding legitimate errors on characters sheets is a pretty good way now. .3o per mini-audit. He covered that in his question though. "auditing/correcting sheets". Zevox
Yitzi 03-02-07, 02:43 PM	[post=6467185]And get it up by Saturday According to the link you posted, tactics may come in as late as Friday night (and if I pitlord and they are on the late side, I won't be able to get it up by Saturday), and it says the fight can go up as late as Tuesday. Also, another question (sorry about there being so many): how long does a questlord have from being given the goal until he has to begin the quest? Also, the questlording thread suggests using dungeoncrafter, but the site seems to be gone. Is there another free program that can take its place?
Erithmu 03-02-07, 03:10 PM	According to the link you posted, tactics may come in as late as Friday night (and if I pitlord and they are on the late side, I won't be able to get it up by Saturday), and it says the fight can go up as late as Tuesday. Also, another question (sorry about there being so many): how long does a questlord have from being given the goal until he has to begin the quest? Everything revolves around Wednesday. The Saturday thing was more for your first fight, so that you can get feedback and not feel pressured due to time constraints on Monday or Tuesday. People 'can' get a bit... jumpy if their fight gets to late. Most will get tactics by Thursday midnight, but life happens. If you run it Saturday and get it up by Saturday night it allows time to rest and not be pressured under a deadline. Also note that time that is listed in the pitlord is GMT (Greenwich Mean Time) So that changes depending where you live. Ex: I live on the West Coast of USA so my time lines are really Noon. For a quest it depends on the type of quest: Miniquest: 1 week duration, 1 encounter (Basically due when fights are due on Tuesday night) (Full or 3 week) Quest: 3 week duration, 3 encounters. The Questlord picks the encounters and can build whatever they want to. Vathelokai has been known to include traps in some of his quests, especially if he has a lack of time one week. Quests must be done between 3FC (3 fight cycles) Guild Mission: Functions like a Quest, but has some limitations. Monsters must be rolled on the random encounter table. There are sometimes when things can get very interesting, but that will come up as Guilds get a little more heated. One major difference is that Guild Missions can start at any time in a character's 3FC, and the characters are healed between each fight.
Yitzi 03-02-07, 03:24 PM	For a quest it depends on the type of quest: Miniquest: 1 week duration, 1 encounter (Basically due when fights are due on Tuesday night) (Full or 3 week) Quest: 3 week duration, 3 encounters. The Questlord picks the encounters and can build whatever they want to. Vathelokai has been known to include traps in some of his quests, especially if he has a lack of time one week. Quests must be done between 3FC (3 fight cycles) Guild Mission: Functions like a Quest, but has some limitations. Monsters must be rolled on the random encounter table. There are sometimes when things can get very interesting, but that will come up as Guilds get a little more heated. One major difference is that Guild Missions can start at any time in a character's 3FC, and the characters are healed between each fight. Thank you, but my question wasn't how long the quest runs, it was how long the questlord has to make the map. E.G. Sunday he is asked to do an ally miniquest by a certain character. Does he have to start it that Wednesday, or can he have more time to make it up? Similarly for full quests. Also, if you need to make a map but don't want to pay money, what should you use now that dungeoncrafter is gone?
Maraxus 03-02-07, 03:47 PM	Yes. This is a common trick. 1. Interesting. I swear, when I first joined the boards a good year ago, the rules had a sentence, that this does not work (therefore the CR advancement have to be read as "or part thereof", but either my memory plays a trick on me, or they have vanished.) 2. Immediate actions, more specificly Empty Mind. When can it be used? Sure, as an imediate action, you can do it in response to somebody using a power or spell at you. But what rools can you wait for? Example: Empty mind vs. Mind Thrust. For the theory, you also have Spell Resistence. What get's rolled before you need to choose weather you use Empty Mind? 1. Damage 2. Spell resistence 3. Your will save. Obviously point 3 is the most important. Can you wait with empty mind to modify your Will save after you have rolled it? To me, this sounds like casting feather fall, after crushing into the ground. but I heard otherwise. Opinions?
Tellish_of_Ket 03-02-07, 03:50 PM	1. Interesting. I swear, when I first joined the boards a good year ago, the rules had a sentence, that this does not work (therefore the CR advancement have to be read as "or part thereof", but either my memory plays a trick on me, or they have vanished.) 2. Immediate actions, more specificly Empty Mind. When can it be used? Sure, as an imediate action, you can do it in response to somebody using a power or spell at you. But what rools can you wait for? Example: Empty mind vs. Mind Thrust. For the theory, you also have Spell Resistence. What get's rolled before you need to choose weather you use Empty Mind? 1. Damage 2. Spell resistence 3. Your will save. Obviously point 3 is the most important. Can you wait with empty mind to modify your Will save after you have rolled it? To me, this sounds like casting feather fall, after crushing into the ground. but I heard otherwise. Opinions? You need to use it before any dice are rolled, including SR. It's not a game of M:TG where effects stack and you have responses to each. If you don't use empty mind, you suffer the effects of the mind thrust. The effect is, you roll SR, then Will, then dmg. No interruption effects here. :P -ToK
Erithmu 03-02-07, 03:57 PM	Thank you, but my question wasn't how long the quest runs, it was how long the questlord has to make the map. E.G. Sunday he is asked to do an ally miniquest by a certain character. Does he have to start it that Wednesday, or can he have more time to make it up? Similarly for full quests. Also, if you need to make a map but don't want to pay money, what should you use now that dungeoncrafter is gone? Sorry ... 'I' run quests without maps, otherwise you can import maps from the arena mapper and just use them for whatever need arises. Some people will do Ascii maps, and they are useful depending on your skill with those. As long as you give distances normally people won't mind. If it is indoors it might require more mapping.
Zevox 03-02-07, 04:03 PM	I'm sorry ToK, but thats incorrect. According to the SRD, immediate actions work just like swift actions except that you can do them during opponents' turns as well, and swift actions can be done any time you could do a free action. Since free actions can be done before, after, or during any other action, this would mean you can do immediate actions during any action as well. So yes, you could do an Empty Mind after the SR check has passed but before your will save. Zevox
hogarth 03-02-07, 04:07 PM	Also, if you need to make a map but don't want to pay money, what should you use now that dungeoncrafter is gone? I have used Dungeonforge on a couple of occasions to create some super-simple maps. It worked for me, sort of. How's that for a ringing endorsement?
Tellish_of_Ket 03-02-07, 04:07 PM	I'm sorry ToK, but thats incorrect. According to the SRD, immediate actions work just like swift actions except that you can do them during opponents' turns as well, and swift actions can be done any time you could do a free action. Since free actions can be done before, after, or during any other action, this would mean you can do immediate actions during any action as well. So yes, you could do an Empty Mind after the SR check has passed but before your will save. Zevox I agree with part of your interpretation, all up to the point of using Empty Mind after you see if SR passes or not. Seeing if SR passes or not isn't an action...there's nothing left to act on at that point. You simply rolling to determine the effects of the Mind Thrust. It's too late after that. And SR check isn't during any kind of action. The action is done. All you are doing with SR is seeing the results of said action. At least that's my take on it anyhow. ToK
hogarth 03-02-07, 04:10 PM	I agree with part of your interpretation, all up to the point of using Empty Mind after you see if SR passes or not. Seeing if SR passes or not isn't an action...there's nothing left to act on at that point. You simply rolling to determine the effects of the Mind Thrust. It's too late after that. And SR check isn't during any kind of action. The action is done. All you are doing with SR is seeing the results of said action. At least that's my take on it anyhow. My opinion is that it can be used "quickly enough to gain its benefit in an emergency" -- until you actually have to roll the Will save, it's not an emergency that would require Empty Mind.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-02-07, 04:13 PM	My opinion is that it can be used "quickly enough to gain its benefit in an emergency" -- until you actually have to roll the Will save, it's not an emergency that would require Empty Mind. My only beef with your interpretation (and i'm not saying your wrong), is that it can be used during an action. After you've been hit with mind thrust, if you chose not to activate empty mind, there are no more actions to interrupt. You suffer the results of the Mind Thrust...you can't interrupt saves and checks. Again, just my take. Though it's an interesting point you make, i wouldn't mind hearing more feedback on this issue. Maybe it's just my conservative nature. ToK
TheMagister 03-02-07, 04:15 PM	Maraxus is asking because of wording in my tactics for Mssr. Hood. I wanted to use Empty Mind after the Will save had been rolled, but only if it was going to be of use. For example: Hood has a +9 Will save. Istima's Ego Whip save is DC 19. If Hood rolls a nine on his d20, I want him to use an Empty Mind (since I have the luxury of knowing what DC I need to hit). If Hood rolls an 11, I don't need an Empty Mind, and don't wanna waste the pp. If Hood rolls a 6, an Empty Mind wouldn't help anyway, so I don't wanna waste the pp. I looked up the definition of an immediate action, and there's nothing that says that you can't use it in that fashion. "Any time" is "any time". The only reference I've seen to "you have to choose to add it before you roll" is on Moment of Prescience and other specific spells/powers of that nature. Meaning that if you were supposed to choose to use it before you rolled, you'd see that language in the spell/power description. How else could you read it? TM
Tellish_of_Ket 03-02-07, 04:20 PM	I looked up the definition of an immediate action, and there's nothing that says that you can't use it in that fashion. "Any time" is "any time". The only reference I've seen to "you have to choose to add it before you roll" is on Moment of Prescience and other specific spells/powers of that nature. Meaning that if you were supposed to choose to use it before you rolled, you'd see that language in the spell/power description. How else could you read it? TM Actually, what you are suggesting is NOT possible, no matter how it's interpreted. All roll-affecting effects need to be declared BEFORE the roll. Moment may be the only SPELL in the phb, but it's far from the only effect that does that. Fatespinner is one such example. All roll-affecting effects need to be decided BEFORE the roll. ToK
TheMagister 03-02-07, 04:23 PM	Just because I'm a rules lawyer playing with other rules lawyers: Prove it.
hogarth 03-02-07, 04:26 PM	If Hood rolls a nine on his d20, I want him to use an Empty Mind (since I have the luxury of knowing what DC I need to hit). If Hood rolls an 11, I don't need an Empty Mind, and don't wanna waste the pp. If Hood rolls a 6, an Empty Mind wouldn't help anyway, so I don't wanna waste the pp. I looked up the definition of an immediate action, and there's nothing that says that you can't use it in that fashion. "Any time" is "any time". All I see is that when you rolled the save, you didn't have a bonus to your Will saves. There's no going back in time to fix it, IMO. That's like rolling enough falling damage to kill yourself, then casting Feather Fall to negate it all.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-02-07, 04:32 PM	All I see is that when you rolled the save, you didn't have a bonus to your Will saves. There's no going back in time to fix it, IMO. That's like rolling enough falling damage to kill yourself, then casting Feather Fall to negate it all. Thank you. I could bend on the activating it after SR, BEFORE the will save...but even that would need some convincing. But AFTER the save is made, is WAY WAY too late. ToK
SauroGrenom 03-02-07, 04:34 PM	2. Immediate actions, more specificly Empty Mind. When can it be used? Sure, as an imediate action, you can do it in response to somebody using a power or spell at you. But what rools can you wait for? Example: Empty mind vs. Mind Thrust. For the theory, you also have Spell Resistence. What get's rolled before you need to choose weather you use Empty Mind? 1. Damage 2. Spell resistence 3. Your will save. Obviously point 3 is the most important. Can you wait with empty mind to modify your Will save after you have rolled it?It's my understand that you roll the SR first. If the effect takes place, then you roll the Save. Then you roll the damage and apply the effect of the save on the damage (In this case don't roll damage because there is none on a successful save.) If you want to use the empty mind effect to improve the save, I've always played that where the decision to use the power is made before the roll is made. That's the way I've always used it in the past, and pitlords have done the same with Raskos (who uses this power on a semi frequent basis). Perhaps we're wrong. *Shrug*
TheMagister 03-02-07, 04:36 PM	{laughing} Okay, okay. I wanted to see if anyone could actually prove it by pointing to a specific overarching rule about modifiers or saves. ... But there isn't one (not that I can find). Go ahead and use the pp on the first two saves, Maraxus.
hogarth 03-02-07, 04:39 PM	{laughing} Okay, okay. I wanted to see if anyone could actually prove it by pointing to a specific overarching rule about modifiers or saves. The definitions of "before" and "after" are usually found in the dictionary, not in the Expanded Psionics Handbook. :D
TheMagister 03-02-07, 04:43 PM	What about the definition of "Any time" or "Immediate Action"?
Tellish_of_Ket 03-02-07, 04:46 PM	What about the definition of "Any time" or "Immediate Action"? The damage has already been done. You can add it if you wish, it doesn't give you a second save, or an after-the-fact-save. ToK
hogarth 03-02-07, 04:46 PM	What about the definition of "Any time" or "Immediate Action"? "I'm going to activate Empty Mind on June 11, 1865."
Macbrea 03-02-07, 04:49 PM	Is the arguement that it cannot be used between the time you use SR and the time you make a save? It can be used 'Any time' as per the rules to Immeditate actions.
Macbrea 03-02-07, 04:53 PM	There are other examples of this throughout game. Example: Mounted combat and Deflect arrow feat allow you to use the feat after you have been hit. Matter of fact you cannot use it before you have been hit. For spell resistance, the caster must beat your spell resistance number to cast a spell on you. At that point you get to decide if you wish to activate empty mind as an immediate action to give you +2 will save. You can only do this once a turn. Without the spell resistance, would anyone have a problem looking at someone and saying a spell with a will save has been cast on you. Do you wish to activate empty mind?
TheMagister 03-02-07, 04:55 PM	Is the arguement that it cannot be used between the time you use SR and the time you make a save? It can be used 'Any time' as per the rules to Immeditate actions. Oh, that was part of it. You'd have to read about 15 posts to catch the whole thing. I was opening a can of worms that I already knew the "right" answer to, trying to see if anyone could actually prove that it was the "right" way to use the power. And nobody can. I was looking to try to fit in the activation of the power between the rolling of the die and the adding of the modifiers. Me: "Hmm. I need to make a DC 19 Will save. I have a +9 modifier." {rolls} Me: "Eek! A "9"! I manifest Empty Mind as an immediate action! This is an emergency!" {totals up mods: 9+9+2=20.} Me: "Whew! Saved by immediate actions!" Table: "Booo!!!!" Reprehensible and metagamery, I know. But prove it can't work that way.
Zevox 03-02-07, 04:55 PM	Yeah, while I still disagree with ToK insofar as the SR/save thing is concerned (the rolls for the action is still during the action, if you ask me), I have to agree with him and Hogarth about the will save. Once its rolled, its rolled. No retroactively adding modifiers after you know the result (by definition, activating Empty Mind after the save is too late to gain its benefits). Zevox
Tellish_of_Ket 03-02-07, 04:57 PM	I'm not sold, but also not 100% convinced it can be used between SR and making a Save Macbrea. I can see both sides of the coin, and can be influenced either. But you can't use it AFTER the save has been made, as TM is suggesting. "I'm going to activate Empty Mind on June 11, 1865." :rofl ToK
Maraxus 03-02-07, 04:57 PM	You can use free action during other actions... Up to a point. For example, a Full Attack is a number of attacks. An action that has consists of several effects over a periot of time. How is this with a spell, however? A spell takes some time, too, but how are the seperate events during this process handled? The diffrent elements of casting a spell are: 1. Choosing the spell 2. Starting the casting, doing what the spell-components ask for. 3. Choosing Targets/Area effected 4. Rolling variable numeric effects (like damage) 5. Checking for Spell Resistence 6. Rolling saves. 7. Applying effects Now, my argument (and Tellish's if I see this correctly) is, that not all of this events happen real after another, specificly, for game-timing, the points 4-7 all happen at once. You can take a free action during casting a spell, but only between events where there is time between like 2 and 3 (not sure about 1->2 but unless mind-reading is involved, this won't come up anyway). Now, if you disagree with this, then there is a second question, namely if empty mind can alter a saving throw after it is rolled. I'd say "No, only effects that explicitly say so can do this." Or to speak in the numbers above: If you can act between 6 and 7 at all, then we would need to discuss, if empty mind works in this step. Since the ability does not say "...+2 to a save just made..." I'd say, this would not work even then. Empty mind can be manifested between the steps 3 and 4, not later. -This discussion effects the Elan Resistance, too. -Readied actions would work roughly the same way, through this might even a bit more complicated. PS: Attack rolls would be 3b, I guess. PPS: While I'm quite certain about the second part I'm not so much about the first. And I'm not totally sure about the order of 4, 5 and 6, mostly because, as said, I think they happen all at once anyway.
Macbrea 03-02-07, 05:09 PM	Oh, and the answer to the rule that determines wether you can use empty mind after the fact is as follows. Once you know which creatures (or objects or areas) are affected, and whether those creatures have made successful saving throws (if any were allowed), you can apply whatever results a spell entails. This means you determine wether the spell succeeds or fails. If you have determined that it succeeds on the person you apply the effects. As a result once the results of the dice have been applied you immediately apply the effects. The player cannot go back and modify those results after the fact. They can modify those results before the fact. That is the reason Empty mind may be used before the dice are rolled. After the dice are rolled the effects of those dice must be applied. Now, back to the spell resistance problem. You don't know according to spell resistance that your spell resistance has worked or not. You do know if a spell with an effect has been cast on you. And are a chance to react with a savings through. The nature of immediate actions says you may suddenly activate something before you roll the dice.
Macbrea 03-02-07, 05:10 PM	Immeditate actions state that they may be used during another persons turn at any time. This means you can interupt that sequence you have above by taking the immediate action during the sequence. IE I choose between section 5 and 6. And applying +2 to your will saves after you roll a will save won't apply to the will save you just made. Though it will apply to any further will saves rolled after that point wil the spell ends.
sonofzeal 03-02-07, 05:13 PM	On the nature of free (non-immediate) actions, how do they interact with Ready Actions? For example, say I want to take a ready action, triggered when the bad guy pokes out his head, to shout a short phrase to my friend (free) and activate a wand (standard). I'm going to assume that's legit, but the wording of Ready Actions in the SRD is ambiguous so I thought I'd check.
Macbrea 03-02-07, 05:16 PM	If you ready an action to blast him with a wand when he pokes his head out. Then the point in which his head appears you will blast him. Then he gets to finish his action of yelling at friend and plopping his head back down. Your initiatve resets to right before his and then he finishes all move and standard actions for the turn.
sonofzeal 03-02-07, 05:21 PM	If you ready an action to blast him with a wand when he pokes his head out. Then the point in which his head appears you will blast him. Then he gets to finish his action of yelling at friend and plopping his head back down. Your initiatve resets to right before his and then he finishes all move and standard actions for the turn. That's not quite what I meant - I'm asking if I can do the yelling, not him. Phrased differently, can I ready a [standard + free] action?
Macbrea 03-02-07, 05:24 PM	You may ready a standard, move or free action. So, I am guessing you are not actually allowed to ready both a standard and a free action. But, a pitlord can determine how many free actions you may do in a turn.
TelinArtho 03-02-07, 05:29 PM	To answer the answer correctly - you'll note that ready actions have been houseruled rather specifically in the rules of gladius (oddly enough in the section labeled "House Rules"...) You are not allowed to ready a free action with a standard action. You could ready just the free action though.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-02-07, 05:31 PM	To answer the answer correctly - you'll note that ready actions have been houseruled rather specifically in the rules of gladius (oddly enough in the section labeled "House Rules"...) You are not allowed to ready a free action with a standard action. You could ready just the free action though. Oh yea...another one of my nerfings. lol :dancin: doin' the pillar dance, ooo yeah! :dancin: ToK
TheMagister 03-02-07, 05:36 PM	Okay, are you ready for this one? Some may not know of it: RAW: you may include a 5' step as part of a ready action.. CoCo Houserule: you can't. I really don't like that houserule.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-02-07, 05:40 PM	Okay, are you ready for this one? Some may not know of it: RAW: you may include a 5' step as part of a ready action.. CoCo Houserule: you can't. I really don't like that houserule. Trust me...you weren't here when that got abused. Fights took FOREVER....quite literally. I did my pillar dance for 3 hrs (game time) to wait for a spell to wear off before finally wacking him. It's not fun for the pitlord, and it becomes a game of "mine was readied first; i have higher init mod mine is first; you readied last so you auto-lose cuz delay first." Not pretty. I'm in 100% agreement with that house-rule for the purposes of CoCo arena battles. ToK
TheMagister 03-02-07, 05:42 PM	Trust me...you weren't here when that got abused. Fights took FOREVER....quite literally. I did my pillar dance for 3 hrs (game time) to wait for a spell to wear off before finally wacking him. It's not fun for the pitlord, and it becomes a game of "mine was readied first; i have higher init mod mine is first; you readied last so you auto-lose cuz delay first." Not pretty. I'm in 100% agreement with that house-rule for the purposes of CoCo arena battles. ToK Could you possibly explain how that works with a map? I fail to see how a readied 5' step could obviate an offense. Edit: Add in incorporeality and a pillar/wall, and I could understand it.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-02-07, 05:44 PM	Could you possibly explain how that works with a map? I fail to see how a readied 5' step could obviate an offense. Edit: Add in incorporeality and a pillar/wall, and I could understand it. It's complicated. It got even worse with quick-mounts and quick-dismounts. "I'm at the back of the horse" oops.. "Now i'm at the front of the horse." oops... "now i'm on the other side of the horse." oops. Add a pillar, you 5' stepping, your mount 5' stepping. It's ugly..real ugly. etc... ToK
TheMagister 03-02-07, 05:51 PM	It's complicated. It got even worse with quick-mounts and quick-dismounts. "I'm at the back of the horse" oops.. "Now i'm at the front of the horse." oops... "now i'm on the other side of the horse." oops. Add a pillar, you 5' stepping, your mount 5' stepping. It's ugly..real ugly. etc... ToK See, Telin? I knew you could quick dismount and pick the side of your horse you wanted to land on! You didn't let me do it with Tessero! {grr} Regardless, I don't see how it would take three hours to figure out a counter strategy (but it was a different CoCo, then, I guess). If I'm pitlording and that's going on, I identify it as a delay tactic and something happens to screw it up for the delay-er. I know it's hard to reconstruct stuff that happened years ago, but I'd like to know how that fight was adjudicated. I can't see how even a 10' step could stop a gladiator who was determined to put a hurtin' on somethin'. TM
McJarvis 03-02-07, 05:52 PM	I can't see how even a 10' step could stop a gladiator who was determined to put a hurtin' on somethin'. TM A distinct lack of Pitlords with backbones.
TheMagister 03-02-07, 05:56 PM	That's what I was thinkin', too.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-02-07, 06:04 PM	I know it's hard to reconstruct stuff that happened years ago, but I'd like to know how that fight was adjudicated. I can't see how even a 10' step could stop a gladiator who was determined to put a hurtin' on somethin'. TM No, it's not as MJ suggest unfortunately. There was no delay penalty back then. And it's not that the opposed gladiator didn't move 10', it's just that the defender is on the side of the pillar and can 5' backpeddle to have two things happen (either they'll have cover to ac, with said attacker needing 20 to hit), or he'd dodge the attack altogether. Plus tactics were SPECIFICALLY used in all details. If you didn't say it, the pitlord couldn't counter to adjust the tactics. So if you didn't include a half of page of "anti-readying tactics" you could be in trouble. ToK
McJarvis 03-02-07, 06:06 PM	No, it's not as MJ suggest unfortunately. There was no delay penalty back then. And it's not that the opposed gladiator didn't move 10', it's just that the defender is on the side of the pillar and can 5' backpeddle to have two things happen (either they'll have cover to ac, with said attacker needing 20 to hit), or he'd dodge the attack altogether. Plus tactics were SPECIFICALLY used in all details. If you didn't say it, the pitlord couldn't counter to adjust the tactics. So if you didn't include a half of page of "anti-readying tactics" you could be in trouble. ToK So it's like I said-> Pitlords didn't have a backbones. Perhaps it's because we have more emboldened players or something, but many of us have no-BS policies on tactics. You try something strange//offbeat//out-of-the-spirit-of-the-game that will add two hours to my pitlording time & I'll just ignore it. Standard. Of course, most of our Pitlords can afford the minor credit-penalty slap-on-the-wrists that would result in Cat disagreeing with our rulings.(since most of our Pitlords either have been doing it forever & don't spend creds often or do multiple fights a week & have other duties).
McJarvis 03-02-07, 11:11 PM	Questlord Wanted The Artificer of Gladius will need a Questlord for a Miniquest next week. He desires to do research into figuring out where his recently expired master's experiment escaped to. (read: The Illustrated Man was 'created' by TAG's former master, then went crazy "The Hulk" style & killed him) I desire this to be a EL 2 Miniquest.
MindWandererB 03-02-07, 11:12 PM	Questlord Wanted The Artificer of Gladius will need a Questlord for a Miniquest next week. He desires to do research into figuring out where his recently expired master's experiment(read: The Illustrated Man) escaped to. EL 2 Miniquest. Ooh, sign me up! I'll have time for once, and I have a CR 2 critter in mind already. It'll be... fun.
McJarvis 03-02-07, 11:13 PM	Ooh, sign me up! I'll have time for once, and I have a CR 2 critter in mind already. It'll be... fun. ... Oh dear ;) I'll take it...I need to get used to questing under you, anyway :)
Tellish_of_Ket 03-03-07, 12:39 AM	This is my "i'm bored post". I miss Telin :weep: I miss continuing my fight vs THREE silver dragons. :weep: I can't sleep :weep: Why can't Telin be an insomniac as well? :weep: Wow, 3 young medium silver dragons 13HD (110 hp) vs my lonely little 10th cleric (47 hp). Individually they have triple standard treasure. So not only am i facing more than 3x my hit dice, i'm facing flying fighting behemoths with three times the loot i have...and they don't follow 3FC rule. :weep: Sing with me everyone...."Save a prayer for me now...save it for the mourning after...ay aya...save a prayer for me now..." :weep: -ToK
Guildmaster (TAO) 03-03-07, 12:44 AM	I feel for you ToK... While updating the guild, I decided to come up with a new design for the guild alignment chart. It's a bit code heavy, but I like it... /GUILD ALIGNMENT\ )LAW 4||||3||||2||||1|||Ж0||||-1||||-2||||-3||||-4 CHAOS( )True Neutral( )GOOD 4||||3||||2||||1||||0Ж|||-1||||-2||||-3||||-4 EVIL( ~Vath
Zevox 03-03-07, 12:48 AM	@ ToK - Well, at least we know you're earning that ally of yours ;) . @ Vath - Nice. Zevox
MindWandererB 03-03-07, 03:36 AM	@Vath: Just as long as I get the actual numbers for the official chart. And a little code-heavy? It took me half a second for the contents of the sblock to load!
Vathelokai 03-03-07, 03:40 AM	@Vath: Just as long as I get the actual numbers for the official chart. And a little code-heavy? It took me half a second for the contents of the sblock to load! Oops... thought they were in the PM. TAO is now .5 (lawfull) and -(.5 evil). Still a true neutral guild. Yeah... a little :D EDIT- it could be that wierd symbol I'm using for the scale marker that slowed it down. I couldn't find anything better. Still might change it to something like [0.5] ... lets see.... /GUILD ALIGNMENT\ )LAW 4||||3||||2||||1|||[0.5]0||||-1||||-2||||-3||||-4 CHAOS( )True Neutral( )GOOD 4||||3||||2||||1||||0[-0.5]|||-1||||-2||||-3||||-4 EVIL( *EDIT* YEah, that looks better.
UserNamer 03-03-07, 10:05 AM	On witch flying creature is it possible to ride on? All that are 1 size category smaller?
Zevox 03-03-07, 10:10 AM	On witch flying creature is it possible to ride on? All that are 1 size category smaller? Suitable mounts need be two things: at least 1 size category larger than you, and both willing and able to bear a rider. Obviously the latter is a bit of a judgment call thing, but I'd tend to think in most cases its not that hard to figure out. Zevox
UserNamer 03-03-07, 10:12 AM	Suitable mounts need be two things: at least 1 size category larger than you, and both willing and able to bear a rider. Obviously the latter is a bit of a judgment call thing, but I'd tend to think in most cases its not that hard to figure out. Zevox giant bee?
hogarth 03-03-07, 10:28 AM	giant bee? Note that a giant bee can't learn the Combat Riding package. Plus, the rider shouldn't be more than a light load for the flying mount. Maybe a halfling or forest gnome could ride a giant bee, but it'd be tough.
Vathelokai 03-03-07, 10:32 AM	giant bee? Bees die after striking. I suggest the giant wasp.
UserNamer 03-03-07, 10:33 AM	Note that a giant bee can't learn the Combat Riding package. Plus, the rider shouldn't be more than a light load for the flying mount. Maybe a halfling or forest gnome could ride a giant bee, but it'd be tough. why tough? with a high enough HA, witch you need anyway to get one, you could easily ride it right? I am currently build a dromite paladin with 18 cha, 16 dex, animal affinity. It could be nice for this kind of build, no?
UserNamer 03-03-07, 10:44 AM	Bees die after striking. I suggest the giant wasp. cr1 for the bee, witch I can have as a 5hd creature, witch will give it 1 feat(fly-by) with no cr raise, and cr3 for the wasp This way I can let the bee die in my last fight, becouse it will get raised back again(right?)
Vathelokai 03-03-07, 10:47 AM	why tough? with a high enough HA, witch you need anyway to get one, you could easily ride it right? I am currently build a dromite paladin with 18 cha, 16 dex, animal affinity. It could be nice for this kind of build, no? Giant bee -> str 11, fly 80 (good), suicide strike only (1d4+con damage) -> light load 38 lbs or less Giant wasp -> str 18, fly 60 (good), 1d3+6+dex damage -> light load 100 lbs or less Combat riding really only adds armor to this mount, which it dosn't have the str to carry anyway. Minimum weights (females; males +5 lbs) Dromite -32 Gnome - 37 Halfling - 27
Zevox 03-03-07, 10:47 AM	why tough? Because of the Bee's low strength. It can't carry much, and if its above a light load, it can't fly. And as hogarth said, its int -, so it cannot learn the Combat Riding package, which leads to you needing to use a move action every round on a DC 20 ride check to control it. Definitely a tough way to fight. Zevox
hogarth 03-03-07, 10:48 AM	why tough? with a high enough HA, witch you need anyway to get one, you could easily ride it right? I am currently build a dromite paladin with 18 cha, 16 dex, animal affinity. It could be nice for this kind of build, no? A giant bee is a medium creature with 11 Str. That means that the rider + equipment has to weigh less than 38 lbs. (or maybe 57 lbs. if you count a bee as a "quadruped"). It's also not clear to me if a mount without the Combat Riding package would be easily frightened in combat (like a non-warhorse or a pony would).
Vathelokai 03-03-07, 10:48 AM	cr1 for the bee, witch I can have as a 5hd creature, witch will give it 1 feat(fly-by) with no cr raise, and cr3 for the wasp This way I can let the bee die in my last fight, becouse it will get raised back again(right?) Yes, it would be resurected at the end of the cycle. An elite bee would get you the str you need I think.
hogarth 03-03-07, 10:50 AM	cr1 for the bee, witch I can have as a 5hd creature, witch will give it 1 feat(fly-by) with no cr raise, and cr3 for the wasp Vermin and other mindless creatures don't get feats.
UserNamer 03-03-07, 10:55 AM	I see, thanks all, for teaching me this valuable lesson :p
Vathelokai 03-03-07, 10:59 AM	I wouldn't write it off entirely. You could stick with light warhorses for speed until your ecl is high enough for the vermin. Or go with land vermin. If you're a meleer, then all your pet needs is the defend trick to help you fight. It would be a welcome releif from seeing all the pegesai. ;)
Zevox 03-03-07, 11:16 AM	Or go with land vermin. If you're a meleer, then all your pet needs is the defend trick to help you fight. Theres the problem that vermin are mindless though, so they can't get any tricks at all. Zevox
UserNamer 03-03-07, 11:16 AM	Alright then, something else: a darkmantle. This creature has 1hd, I can give it 2 more hd, without a cr raise, witch gives it a feat. Can I give him improved grapple? He has a slam attack and he has improved grab
Vathelokai 03-03-07, 11:22 AM	Alright then, something else: a darkmantle. This creature has 1hd, I can give it 2 more hd, without a cr raise, witch gives it a feat. Can I give him improved grapple? He has a slam attack and he has improved grab you are correct. Natural attacks count as improved unarmed strike for the purposes of getting feats.
UserNamer 03-03-07, 11:26 AM	Great! Just one more question: For this darkmantle, I will have to do a miniquest. This creature is an advanced one(+2hd), do I need to pay credits for this if I quest him as a 3hd creature?
Zevox 03-03-07, 11:30 AM	Great! Just one more question: For this darkmantle, I will have to do a miniquest. This creature is an advanced one(+2hd), do I need to pay credits for this if I quest him as a 3hd creature? Yup. Any customized ally other than those you purchase requires credits. Zevox
hogarth 03-03-07, 11:44 AM	Theres the problem that vermin are mindless though, so they can't get any tricks at all. Zevox As a CoCo house rule, they're allowed to have 3 tricks.
UserNamer 03-03-07, 11:51 AM	that would make it a lot easier for me to ride a giant bee, and as for the weight, I could reduce. Other question now: Is it possible for a tiny sized creature to ride a medium creature?
TheMagister 03-03-07, 12:02 PM	As for the darkmantle, I think you might have some trouble getting it approved as a "able and willing" to bear your character. Darkmantles are like, flying octopi... TM
UserNamer 03-03-07, 12:04 PM	I actually wasn't planning on riding it, just advance it and give it improved grapple. total grapple would become like +6, plus he has improved grab.
TheMagister 03-03-07, 12:06 PM	Ah! Ok. I thought you were still trying to find something to ride.
UserNamer 03-03-07, 12:12 PM	Can the darkmantle hold items?
TheMagister 03-03-07, 12:16 PM	I'd imagine that it could hold quite a few items. I don't think it could wield them (as weapons). It's got a bunch of small tentacles that it uses to grapple; I don't see how it couldn't hold anything up to large size that it could lift with a weight of no more than a light load (so that it could retain the ability to fly). It could lift even more, but it wouldn't be able to fly. That's my thought.
Hirumajoe 03-03-07, 12:57 PM	So in regards to the new higher level ECL monster fight charts, I was wondering if it would make sense to have a Bestiary of Gladius thread. This is what you do: Each week create a Monster of the Week thread (kinda like the fights of the week). Somone posts a certain number of monsters (2-4?) which are up for design that week picked directly off the monster charts, which haven't been done yet. People propose full monster sheets (you'd probably want a default monster sheet, similar to the character sheet available to help standardize this). At the end of the week you hold a vote if there are multiple versions proposed, with the Elders holding a veto option on any monster. The winning monster(s) are then added to the Bestiary of Gladius thread and their posts are linked in the monster roll charts directly. Then, when a pitlord rolls a monster fight, they have a completely ready monster just by clicking on the link on the chart. Possibly even with default tactics and a short background. It reduces pitlord work, it lets people who have an itching to create higher level characters/monsters work out that urge, and it fills out the history of gladius more. Also, monsters created by pitlords running monster fights that don't have a monster sheet yet could also be directly added, avoiding duplicate effort in the long run. So is this a bad idea, a good idea?
TheMagister 03-03-07, 12:58 PM	Oh, that's GREAT idea. Post it in the Council Thread.
Vathelokai 03-03-07, 01:06 PM	I was thinking something similar myself after running the 4 tiefling wizard 'monster fight'; just to save people the trouble of having to deal with that. I definitely support it.
hogarth 03-03-07, 01:07 PM	So in regards to the new higher level ECL monster fight charts, I was wondering if it would make sense to have a Bestiary of Gladius thread. This is what you do: [snip] Then, when a pitlord rolls a monster fight, they have a completely ready monster just by clicking on the link on the chart. Possibly even with default tactics and a short background. It reduces pitlord work, it lets people who have an itching to create higher level characters/monsters work out that urge, and it fills out the history of gladius more. Also, monsters created by pitlords running monster fights that don't have a monster sheet yet could also be directly added, avoiding duplicate effort in the long run. So is this a bad idea, a good idea? I think it's a great idea. I proposed something like this (having a monster list sort of like the mercenary list), but Telin didn't like the idea at all.
MitzaVolchenko 03-03-07, 01:44 PM	The problem with setting up a set bestiary for monsters is that there is then no variety. As much as I hate the way monster fights equivalate CR and ECL plus add cash to equipping the beasties, if you have them set to default tactics, it becomes very easy to figure out what you are facing or could face and have just the right thing to handle it on hand.
Rauul 03-03-07, 02:03 PM	I think it's a great idea. I proposed something like this (having a monster list sort of like the mercenary list), but Telin didn't like the idea at all. Make it optional, some DM's like to make thier own monsters, and customize them.. me i like premade and then "modify" them.. having a forum of premade monsters would just plain rule for both here and for our games at home... cause i can tell you with total honesty.. it i was to roll the half dragon were t-rex..or anything close to it... i am gonna say screw this and do another roll... i don't wanna take 4 hr's to combine 2 templates onto a monster class, sorry
Hirumajoe 03-03-07, 02:17 PM	The problem with setting up a set bestiary for monsters is that there is then no variety. As much as I hate the way monster fights equivalate CR and ECL plus add cash to equipping the beasties, if you have them set to default tactics, it becomes very easy to figure out what you are facing or could face and have just the right thing to handle it on hand. How would you feel if default tactics were not included? Or are you concerned about selected feats/skills and spells? And while it does indeed reduce variety in those monsters which aren't taken right out of the SRD as is, it also ensures an equal difficulty when they are encountered by different people. I know MWB has complained at least once about a monster in a monster fight I ran. It was a Psion Unbodied. Not to mention at least 3 errors I made in writing it up. That cost me an additional hour or so to correct, due to having to go back in the fight and check all the rolls and so forth. By having publicly vetted monsters, it reduces the chances of mistakes getting by, ensuring fairness. I know when I first write up a character its full of mistakes, monsters are no different. Lastly, given players can already know everything about their PC opponents, what is exactly wrong letting a player know everything stat wise about their monster opponents before hand. Especially if those monsters are designed, discussed and voted on by multiple people? The quality of the monster designs which have options (which are the ones you're getting information on) is also improving. Lastly, how is it bad if the tactics you receive from the PC this week go from, I shoot at if and it isn't being hurt, run at it with my sword, to a detailed plan, akin to what you get in PC vs PC fights? So in summary: I definitely agree it reduces variety. But it also reduces workload and errors. It increases Player knowledge. But it also increases the quality of the monster designs. And also may reduce the need for Pitlord improvisation, which reduces the need to keep the knowledge of the player character and the person running the fight seperate. I guess it depends on what you see as being most important. Edit: Thats not a bad suggestion Rauul. Although it does reduce some of the benefits (ensure equal difficulty), but it does reduce some of the negatives as well.
Vathelokai 03-03-07, 02:22 PM	Some things can be avoided in such a proposal. For example, have 2 of each monster on hand. Or have 4 sets of equipment for the monster and roll 1d4. etc. There are plenty of ways like this to keep it simple and quick, and keep enough variaty to not know excactly what you're fighting.
Vathelokai 03-03-07, 02:24 PM	Ah... showdown time for Bulgar and Darkmane in Ordo Draconis. Ringside seats available.
Caterane 03-03-07, 08:06 PM	@all: Can anyone please help me to find these threads in the archive? The WotC Staff will then unarchive them. - Gladiators of Gladius - Fights of Gladius - Mercenaries of Gladius I've looked over it several times but I can't find it. Maraxus however provided the links some time ago. Obviously, Spot is a cross-class skill for me. :rolleyes:
MindWandererB 03-03-07, 08:13 PM	@all: Can anyone please help me to find these threads in the archive? The WotC Staff will then unarchive them. - Gladiators of Gladius - Fights of Gladius - Mercenaries of Gladius I've looked over it several times but I can't find it. Maraxus however provided the links some time ago. Obviously, Spot is a cross-class skill for me. :rolleyes: http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-190985.html http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-69954.html http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-548981.html <ctrl>-F is your friend. :)
Hirumajoe 03-03-07, 09:34 PM	Quick question, which I think I know the answer to, but I want to double check: The bonus provided by an Amulet of Natural Armor is a enhancement bonus to natural armor, while natural armor coming from race or a polymorph like effect is just natural armor. These should stack, correct? I'm trying to figure out if I should buy Valen a +1 Amulet of Natural Armor and whether it will stack later when he gets Metamorphosis. Actually while I'm at it, I've got roughly 7500 gp to work with. I'm considering various possibilities: +1 Amulet to Natural Armor (2000 gp) Upgrade to a +2 Cloak of Resistance (3000 net gp) Upgrade to +2 Mithril Chain Shirt (3000 net gp) Add the Sundering modifier to his +1 Adamantine Greatsword (6,000 net gp) +2 Headband of Intellect (4000 gp) or saving it for a Suppresion Modifier to his +1 Adamantine Greatsword (16,000 net gp) or saving it for Winged Boots (16000 gp) or boots of Speed (12000 gp)
hogarth 03-03-07, 09:41 PM	Quick question, which I think I know the answer to, but I want to double check: The bonus provided by an Amulet of Natural Armor is a enhancement bonus to natural armor, while natural armor coming from race or a polymorph like effect is just natural armor. These should stack, correct? Yes, just like an armor bonus and an enhancement bonus to armor.
False_Keraptis 03-03-07, 10:48 PM	Upgrade to a +2 Cloak of Resistance (3000 net gp) Well, my instincts tell me you should definitely do this. So, um, that might not be the best move...
Zevox 03-03-07, 11:08 PM	Actually while I'm at it, I've got roughly 7500 gp to work with. I'm considering various possibilities: +1 Amulet to Natural Armor (2000 gp) Upgrade to a +2 Cloak of Resistance (3000 net gp) Upgrade to +2 Mithril Chain Shirt (3000 net gp) Add the Sundering modifier to his +1 Adamantine Greatsword (6,000 net gp) +2 Headband of Intellect (4000 gp) or saving it for a Suppresion Modifier to his +1 Adamantine Greatsword (16,000 net gp) or saving it for Winged Boots (16000 gp) or boots of Speed (12000 gp) Well, to start with, you're an archer-psion, so Winged Boots, while helpful, are hardly a necessity. Hell, if you can spare the feat, once you have 5th level powers you could take Expanded Knowledge to get the psionic version of fly and get that without spending cash at all. Boots of speed on the other hand are a must-have for any physical combat using character unless they have another way to get haste (which you don't seem to). How soon you need them though is totally your decision. Headband of Intellect would be quite helpful - higher DCs and more pp for your powers will let you get more mileage out of them, especially presuming you bump int at level 8 as well, which would bring you to a score of 20. Personally, I'd take that one now if I were you. Sundering on your Greatsword is a great idea as well, though pricey. I'd say aim for that next. Wait, suppression? The Dispel ability? Eh, not so much. Besides, it would actually cost 16,000 gp. Its a +2 enhancement equivalent cost. For the others, the +1 ACs probably aren't worth grabbing as much as the other ideas, though certainly every little bit adds up. Upgrading the cloak though I'd go with. True save-or-dies start showing up soon from straight casters (Phantasmal Killer is available right now, and at level 9 Magic Jar and Baleful Polymorph rear their ugly heads), and against those every little bit is more important than against physical attacks. Zevox
Zevox 03-04-07, 01:31 AM	Okay everyone, I have an observation to share with a suggestion I'd like to run by you. As we all know, our rules say that class allies need to be quested for unless the description of the ally gives a specific way to obtain them. Well, looking over the various classes and prestige classes allowed here, theres only a single one this would apply to, and I've noticed even it could be argued otherwise. Familiars and Animal Companions come in via a ritual, Paladin special mounts and Blackguard Fiendish Servants are summoned as a full-round action, Planar Cohorts are summoned via one Planar Ally spell or another, and even Thralls and Believers arrive due to a psychic call. The one vague one is the Shadowdancer's Shadow Companion, which simply says it is "summoned", with nothing else to indicate how. Now, I don't know for sure if thats specific enough to qualify for the "no quest needed" clause, but even if it isn't, might I put forward the suggestion that its rather silly to keep that rule in place if it only affects this single class ally, and one which is from a very rare class which most don't want to take more than 1 level in anyway (and that its even sillier if it doesn't even do that)? Perhaps we should consider just making it so that class allies don't need to be quested for at all, rather than keep a rule that restricts one class ally alone (or none at all). Full disclosure: Obviously, I've noted this and decided to bring it up because my own Shadowdancer, Featylec, is about to reach the level where he'll gain this ally. If he has to quest for it, he wouldn't have it if I were to enter him in the Iron Man (he currently isn't, but I'm considering, and certainly would if we needed just a few more to hit the 36 character mark we want). If he could get it in time for the Iron Man though, I'll probably be more interested in entering him, needed to fill out the roster or not. Zevox
Tellish_of_Ket 03-04-07, 02:06 AM	I would say "summoned' would qualify as not needing to Quest for it. Just my two coppers though. ToK
Tellish_of_Ket 03-04-07, 03:43 AM	Bounty Hunts I want to revisit (ressurect) and old idea i had from when i was originally trying to develop LivGlad. I was reading through my old notes and came across "Bounty Hunts". This is were a PC can sign up to hunt down a "named" criminal/hero of sorts for each EL 5+ It was originally for 1 person to track down and kill a "bounty" from a "named" PC of their ECL+2. There would be significant risk of course, and no rewards for failure...not even loser exp. That would avoid abuse...but the rewards are slightly greater. It would cost you 5 credits to earn the right to "bounty hunt". As usual, there would be no free activities allowed during a bounty hunt just like MQ's. These vile villains, or uncorruptable heros, would obviously have to be quite powerful to deter all but the most battle savy gladiator. PC EL- Bounty EL 5 - - - 5th level Rogue Vampire with ambush/assassinate pkg. 6 - - - Bralani Eladrins (x2), Champions of Gorthym 7 - - - Bard 5/DD 4, Defender and Keeper of Secrets 8 - - - 7 half-dragon Barbarian 1 Kobolds, Scourge of the Plains That's what i initially had..but those are just examples. What do you think? Maybe after Ironman, try to hammer something out, to add some extra flavour. ToK
Abyssal Stalker 03-04-07, 03:50 AM	What would be the rewards for this? I think you can do this already, just set up an out-of-cycle miniquest with EL+2 and you can fight whatever you want (or the pitlord wants). Just tell him what you are looking for.
MindWandererB 03-04-07, 03:55 AM	@Tellish: it might be an option, but don't we have better things to argue about? The first priority along these lines is going to be special guild challenges; this might be way down the line. In other news, I want to make this discussion public. 2 CAP: [MISSION] - Contact |=> Contact PMG, Gorthyum |=> "Knights Templar", EL 11 |=> Ixenthor & Leif |=> Start: FEB 28 (This is technically not allowed--a guild cannot invent a new PMG if there is already a PMG they invented on the map. However, the one that CEF already "invented" was the relocated Freedom Fighters, and I don't feel like fighting with Cat about whether that counts.)When CEF "moved" the Freedom Fighters to the other side of WAR they placed them directly in our(LOY's) way. That _was_ where we were going to expand next, and now we cannot. I think counting the creation as one of CEF's creations is valid, since it has seriously affected our future strategies....(we can not deal with a EL 10 Chaotic PMG at this time, to my knowledge)McJarvis has a good point here--intentionally or not, CEF did do something here that impacted another guild negatively. LOY won't be able to even attempt anything until Valen or Maya level up, and even then it would be rough. Do you have a counterargument, Cat?I would have never created the chaotic Freedom Fighters, enemy of the CEF, as the CEF's PMG slot. I've planned for the Knights Templar for a long time and I cannot do without them in Gorthyum because there's this other group. If anything, remove the Freedom Fighters or let it count as WAR's group creation; they wanted them to stick around by all means. I know, suddenly now that the Freedom Fighters are not in CEF space anymore WAR has lost all interest on them (which doesn't come as a surprise) but that's not my problem. I thought they'd move to Kailo but they went for Kelartus instead, even founded their own group which makes two WAR PMG groups. They wanted them badly, here they have them. Or we leave it as it is and CEF volunteers to help LOY in the attack. Btw, even though it's a CN group, it doesn't attack LOY like rioters do so McJarvis can move in and destroy them later.If Cat thinks the Freedom Fighters were not wanted by the CEF, then by all-means remove them. The creation of the Freedom Fighters were terms of peace with WAR(by my count) & if CEF would rather face WAR than lose their creation of PMG slot, then so be it. Just announce that CEF pulled funding from the Freedom Fighters & the group is disbanded. I will not abide the Freedom Fighters staying in place AND CEF getting to create a second group, since they have benefited from both groups(avoided war with WAR, furthering their own plans) One or the other. CEF gets one cookie.Cat is breaking the rules, here, and trying to talk his way out of it. I was willing to let it slide at first because I felt there was no harm done, but McJarvis has a valid complaint. Therefore, unless anyone has anything further to say about this, the Freedom Fighters will be disbanded, on the grounds that Cat never would have created them if he had thought this would count as CEF's one invented group; they would have just annihilated them, and WAR certainly wouldn't have used its one invention allotment on them, either. I don't care how the guilds react to this in-character; that's not my job. (Aside from TLT, of course.) I'm enforcing the rules, and this is the best way I know how.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-04-07, 04:04 AM	@Tellish: it might be an option, but don't we have better things to argue about? The first priority along these lines is going to be special guild challenges; this might be way down the line. Oh yea...way down the line. Before i started working on a ton of builds as options, i just wanted a bit of feedback. Heheh, it's 2:02 am here, can't sleep...bored. Need something to do. lol ToK
TheMagister 03-04-07, 07:17 AM	Oh, man, this can of worms again. WAR objected to the CEF's callous and heavy-handed treatment of the citizens of Gawane and their right to resist the Council (personified in the Gawane Freedom Fighters). CEF ran rampant through the district, attacking the Freedom Fighters in bloody, murderous battles. WAR never attacked the CEF, we simply stood in their way (for longer than anyone thought possible). When CEF attacked our stuff, we attacked their stuff, but only their buildings in Gawane. When we became too bothersome for the CEF to ignore, they sent highly professional and powerful teams into Central Gladius and reduced our Festhall to rubble. WAR was perfectly willing to go out fighting as long as we had the support of the other guilds in our endeavor, but the so-called "peace talks" at TAO proved to Gwar how cowed the rest of the guilds were by the CEF's power. During the peace talks, CEF initiatied a military campaign to snuff out the final resistance of the Freedom Fighters in Gawane and "transported" them to wherever in a political move meant to show how "peaceful" the CEF really is. In the process of this dirty trick (attacking the PMG during the peacetalks which revolved around them), Gwar lost all respect and trust for the CEF, and much of his respect for TAO because of Vandelar's stubborn refusal to see the perfidy of the CEF actions. Gwar withdrew his support for an inter-guild coalition force (ripped from the headlines, folks!) in the face of this blatant foolishness and ostrich-head-in-the-sand mentality and went back to his guildhall. He still strategizes there today, trying to rebuild his guild to a facsimile of its former power, and to fortify it against invaders. The disbanding of the Freedom Fighters would be a totally expected move should the CEF do so, because Gwar (at this point) wouldn't put such political chicanery past them. The 'moving' of the PMG to wherever and then the 'denial of funding' that causes them to disperse would just go to prove exactly how serious the CEF was in its desire for peace (which is to say, not serious at all). Their peace is the peace of the sword. At this point Gwar fully expects a battle of attrition in which he will be the last guild remaining that stands between the free city of Gladius and the corrupt, lying, stealing, and murdering CEF. He hopes for some good things down the road that will aid him in his defense of freedom. Expect a renewal of political rhetoric from Gwar, using this as "proof" of the CEF's duplicity. Out of character: Cat is the GM, and has proven in the past that rules are malleable things when it comes to what he wants. I can't have an opinion in this matter, because I'd be seen as biased. Still, it seems to me that Cat created the PMG "The Freedom Fighters". If he wants to get rid of it and create a new one, he should have to kill it the old fashioned way. If that creates political backlash for him in the story {shrug} then that's tough cookies. He should've befriended them and Gawane district in the first place. On a side note: WAR has not created ANY PMGs on the board. I'm just making friends and working with what's already there. PSI actually created the OotOHW.
Hirumajoe 03-04-07, 07:57 AM	Well, to start with, you're an archer-psion, so Winged Boots, while helpful, are hardly a necessity. Hell, if you can spare the feat, once you have 5th level powers you could take Expanded Knowledge to get the psionic version of fly and get that without spending cash at all. I won't be getting 5th level powers until about 13th or 14th, which is a ways off. I can kinda cheat using Metamorphosis and using flying forms (not as an effective use, but it works). Its a very good point. Boots of speed on the other hand are a must-have for any physical combat using character unless they have another way to get haste (which you don't seem to). How soon you need them though is totally your decision. Yeah, I actually have a 2nd attack starting next level plus Hustle. Which kinda makes it attractive. 60' move plus a full attack in a single round. But its certainly not a must have at the moment. Headband of Intellect would be quite helpful - higher DCs and more pp for your powers will let you get more mileage out of them, especially presuming you bump int at level 8 as well, which would bring you to a score of 20. Personally, I'd take that one now if I were you. I definitely want to grab it by 8th. Although not for the traditional DCs you're thinking about. Valen doesn't have a single power that requires a save at the moment. It does bump is Know: Geography to +10 at level 8, getting him 2 buff rounds on the attack. Plus 2 more pp. But given this my last purchasing session before 8th probably, getting it now isn't a bad idea. Sundering on your Greatsword is a great idea as well, though pricey. I'd say aim for that next. Wait, suppression? The Dispel ability? Eh, not so much. Besides, it would actually cost 16,000 gp. Its a +2 enhancement equivalent cost. Which is why I listed Suppression as a 16,000 gp net upgrade from +1 and sundering as 6,000 gp net upgrade. +2 and +1 enhancements from the 2000 gp base. I eventually want to get both, allowing me to go to town on magic bows in a single hit as all their bonus hp disappear. At which point I switch over to the the Hide in Shadow, Cerebral Blind sniper attacker from heck. Possibly in Pixie form just for giggles. :-) Although its going to be a pain to be carrying around 4 or 5 bows with different strength ratings... For the others, the +1 ACs probably aren't worth grabbing as much as the other ideas, though certainly every little bit adds up. Upgrading the cloak though I'd go with. True save-or-dies start showing up soon from straight casters (Phantasmal Killer is available right now, and at level 9 Magic Jar and Baleful Polymorph rear their ugly heads), and against those every little bit is more important than against physical attacks. Zevox Well both you and False_Keraptis like the cloak, and I think its solid, I'll probably grab that. Bye bye 7000gp (headband and cloak). Thanks for the analysis and suggestions.
MitzaVolchenko 03-04-07, 11:24 AM	@Tellish: it might be an option, but don't we have better things to argue about? The first priority along these lines is going to be special guild challenges; this might be way down the line. In other news, I want to make this discussion public. Cat is breaking the rules, here, and trying to talk his way out of it. I was willing to let it slide at first because I felt there was no harm done, but McJarvis has a valid complaint. Therefore, unless anyone has anything further to say about this, the Freedom Fighters will be disbanded, on the grounds that Cat never would have created them if he had thought this would count as CEF's one invented group; they would have just annihilated them, and WAR certainly wouldn't have used its one invention allotment on them, either. I don't care how the guilds react to this in-character; that's not my job. (Aside from TLT, of course.) I'm enforcing the rules, and this is the best way I know how. If the rules are outright broken by the person that is ultimately in charge of enforcing them, then we have no rules. The board crumbles. I understand Cat's feelings on this one. The RP side of things was rather created by the various involved players and pushed things to the point of the possibility that all guilds would just join together and wipe CEF. I don't actually think that it would be a bad idea for the guilds to at least raze a good portion of CEF. I advocated it in RP with Sybil. She is CG and has a history with the knightly LG's which cause her to want to see violent response to even well meant oppression of personal freedom. The bottom line here is that unless Cat chooses to step down and turn the reins over to someone else, we can't overrule him. I am disappointed to see Cat arguing this, but sadly unsurprised (see NiQil's comment regarding Blacklight in the Courtroom).
Zevox 03-04-07, 02:11 PM	Okay everyone, I have an observation to share with a suggestion I'd like to run by you. As we all know, our rules say that class allies need to be quested for unless the description of the ally gives a specific way to obtain them. Well, looking over the various classes and prestige classes allowed here, theres only a single one this would apply to, and I've noticed even it could be argued otherwise. Familiars and Animal Companions come in via a ritual, Paladin special mounts and Blackguard Fiendish Servants are summoned as a full-round action, Planar Cohorts are summoned via one Planar Ally spell or another, and even Thralls and Believers arrive due to a psychic call. The one vague one is the Shadowdancer's Shadow Companion, which simply says it is "summoned", with nothing else to indicate how. Now, I don't know for sure if thats specific enough to qualify for the "no quest needed" clause, but even if it isn't, might I put forward the suggestion that its rather silly to keep that rule in place if it only affects this single class ally, and one which is from a very rare class which most don't want to take more than 1 level in anyway (and that its even sillier if it doesn't even do that)? Perhaps we should consider just making it so that class allies don't need to be quested for at all, rather than keep a rule that restricts one class ally alone (or none at all). Full disclosure: Obviously, I've noted this and decided to bring it up because my own Shadowdancer, Featylec, is about to reach the level where he'll gain this ally. If he has to quest for it, he wouldn't have it if I were to enter him in the Iron Man (he currently isn't, but I'm considering, and certainly would if we needed just a few more to hit the 36 character mark we want). If he could get it in time for the Iron Man though, I'll probably be more interested in entering him, needed to fill out the roster or not. So, anybody else care to comment on this? Particularly Elders? While I appreciate Tellish's input, it'd be nice to have some idea what others, especially the guys making rules decisions around here, think as well. And while I'm at it, something else that I recall someone bringing up briefly a long time ago that never got answered then: the Shadow Companion description says that it gets +2 HD for every 3 levels of Shadowdancer its master has. Does that include the first 3, or only those after then? Zevox
Abyssal Stalker 03-04-07, 02:43 PM	The second one is easy. It says "for every 3 levels" not "for every 3 levels above 3rd", so that's for every 3 levels. 3rd, 6th, 9th.
Hirumajoe 03-04-07, 03:05 PM	I'm no elder, but I'll throw my 2 cents in. I agree with Tellish that the summon statement means it needs no quest. In addition, since the Shadow dancer isn't listed with any special powers or rules that can convert a normal shadow into his specific companion shadow when he doesn't have one, I fail to see how he could even try to quest for one in the first place. Given the way its listed in the SRD table, with Summon Shadow listed at 3rd, 6th and 9th, I would think the +2 HD occurs at 3rd, 6th and 9th. Thus the initial shadow has 5 HD. This doesn't seem out of line, given that a 3rd Shadow Dancer is a minimum of ECL 10. At that level, Druids can have 8 HD Wolves or CR 6 Megaraptors.
SauroGrenom 03-04-07, 03:18 PM	Meh... My interest in the guild game and all the drama of it is waning. I like the psions we have in the guild. I think they are interesting characters that waywreth, Zevox, Vath and I have in the guild. But we cannot really do anything even with RP. The introduction of the guild mission to process points has made a serious shortage of questlords. Zevox cam to me at the last minute asking me to slap together a mission for Featylec and WAR. I did it, but the fact that no others volunteered despite repeated requests in the tavern suggests that no others were available. In this specific case, it seams clear to me that according to the rules the Freedom Fighters are now gone from the game. They just disappear. Whatever political fallout follows that, so be it. CEF has a formal written mutual protection pact with TLT, and an informal non-aggression agreement with LOY. They're basicially untouchable. None of the other guilds are working together like that or has so many high level opperatives to use against a rival. That's two of the top 3 guilds allied together with an agreement from number 4 to not clash. All the other 4 guilds in a complete alliance together barely match the wealth of that trio. *Shrug*:zzz: Whatever. The long term nature of the guild game and the fact that it's a competitive rip your face off destroy or be destroyed game makes the whole thing self contradictory. I see the whole thing as continuing on the inertia and will power of Cat alone. W/o Cat's requirement to continue the game in largely it's current form I think the whole thing would stop and go into the next major revision. That's my piece. If CEF wants to make a new PMG, then let them. But clearly the old PMG is destroyed.
TheMagister 03-04-07, 04:50 PM	That's my piece. If CEF wants to make a new PMG, then let them. But clearly the old PMG is destroyed. You do remember when CEF quested to create the current incarnation of the Freedom Fighters, right? They destroyed the old one and invented a new one. Just making sure you understand that.
SauroGrenom 03-04-07, 04:55 PM	You do remember when CEF quested to create the current incarnation of the Freedom Fighters, right? They destroyed the old one and invented a new one. Just making sure you understand that. Yea I know that. Now they are creating a new PMG this week. They are only allowed to have one PMG they created on the world map at a time. Any time a new PMG is created, the old one is destroyed. So this week they create a new PMG and destroy the Freedom Fighters.
Vathelokai 03-04-07, 05:02 PM	You expected different? *EDIT* of course that violates the terms of the peace treaty, so here we go again...
Guildmaster (WAR) 03-04-07, 05:04 PM	A guild may not invent a group if there already is an active one on the map that was invented by the guild. and If a guild wants its own group in a district with an active group, it must either defeat the active group first or invent a stronger one. As long as the first stipulation is there, they can't invent a stronger group, right? They have to take the time to destroy the existing one... TM
NiQil 03-04-07, 05:11 PM	:::must... refrain... from... guild... comments:::
sonofzeal 03-04-07, 05:12 PM	What happens if a character attempts to "cheat" and use more powers/spells than it's allowed to in a fight? Does the Pitlord {a} rewrite tactics around that, {b} do they fail to manifest, or {c} does the arena referee blow the wistle (count as a forfeit)? Personally, {c} would make my life a lot easier. ;)
Vathelokai 03-04-07, 05:16 PM	What happens if a character attempts to "cheat" and use more powers/spells than it's allowed to in a fight? Does the Pitlord {a} rewrite tactics around that, {b} do they fail to manifest, or {c} does the arena referee blow the wistle (count as a forfeit)? Personally, {c} would make my life a lot easier. ;) Usually a, but there's no official rule for it. In the past I've seen the character go on as if they had all the spells they thought, and then suddenly realize they didn't have enough power for the last one. Other times I've seen the pitlord drop one of the spells so it works out.
Vathelokai 03-04-07, 05:17 PM	:::must... refrain... from... guild... comments::: Awww... come on, you know you wanna. :D
hogarth 03-04-07, 05:19 PM	What happens if a character attempts to "cheat" and use more powers/spells than it's allowed to in a fight? Does the Pitlord {a} rewrite tactics around that, {b} do they fail to manifest, or {c} does the arena referee blow the wistle (count as a forfeit)? Personally, {c} would make my life a lot easier. ;) Usually the pitlord would point it out right away and ask for revised tactics. If it's too late for that, I'd go for {a} -- work around it in the spirit of what was intended.
sonofzeal 03-04-07, 06:06 PM	I'd say that if a player messes up, he should be penalized, and that an appropriate penalty would be missing those actions. Otherwise a player could consistantly overestimate their pp/spell expenditure in the hopes that eventually a pitlord will allow it without thinking.
SauroGrenom 03-04-07, 06:23 PM	I'd say that if a player messes up, he should be penalized, and that an appropriate penalty would be missing those actions. Otherwise a player could consistantly overestimate their pp/spell expenditure in the hopes that eventually a pitlord will allow it without thinking. Technically this is grounds for an autoloss. Most pitlords don't do that unless there is a clear pattern of abuse. We all make minor errors now and then.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-04-07, 07:34 PM	I'd say that if a player messes up, he should be penalized, and that an appropriate penalty would be missing those actions. Otherwise a player could consistantly overestimate their pp/spell expenditure in the hopes that eventually a pitlord will allow it without thinking. That is not fair. Plus it is the pitlords responsibility (used to be anyhow) to double check the validity of what a pc wishes to accomplish. Saying a person is "cheating" because of an oversight or miscalculations is not good. Always give them the benefit of the doubt. It's hard to count all the permutations in a fight to account for every spell level. Sometimes the best you can do is just give the strategy and hope things don't go so awry that you run out of spell points. ToK
MindWandererB 03-04-07, 08:08 PM	IMO, the pitlord should always do their best to follow the intention rather than the letter of tactics, in the cases where they conflict due to error or the unexpected. I agree with the Shadows not requiring an MQ.
sonofzeal 03-04-07, 08:19 PM	That is not fair. Plus it is the pitlords responsibility (used to be anyhow) to double check the validity of what a pc wishes to accomplish. Saying a person is "cheating" because of an oversight or miscalculations is not good. Always give them the benefit of the doubt. It's hard to count all the permutations in a fight to account for every spell level. Sometimes the best you can do is just give the strategy and hope things don't go so awry that you run out of spell points. ToK It bothers me that in the fight I just finished running, neither set of tactics seemed to pay any attention to that limit, and that's without counting contingency spells such as Hold Person. It really doesn't take much effort to count up how many spells/pp you're using in your buff list. The rule of thumb in my gaming group is that if the player forgets something they really should know, then the character forgets too. In this case, the end result is wasted actions. If this was in my gaming group, it could have been much worse.
Yitzi 03-04-07, 09:34 PM	I'm almost ready to join, but I have another couple of questions: 1. When fights are posted on Wednesday, is it also posted which arena each fight will take place in? Or do the tactics sent to the Pitlord have to say "if in arena a, do x, if in arena b, do y"? 2. What are the advantages of belonging to a guild? I know about the bonus to leadership for followers, but are there any others?
Zevox 03-04-07, 09:39 PM	I'm almost ready to join, but I have another couple of questions: 1. When fights are posted on Wednesday, is it also posted which arena each fight will take place in? Or do the tactics sent to the Pitlord have to say "if in arena a, do x, if in arena b, do y"? 2. What are the advantages of belonging to a guild? I know about the bonus to leadership for followers, but are there any others? 1) Yes, the arena is posted right next to the match-up itself. Take a look at this week's pairings here for examples. 2) Statistically, none. The Guilds are roleplay devices. You can go on missions for them, which are like quests but cost no credits, but the goals benefit the Guild, not you, so the only advantage there is that you get to go through the RP of the mission for free. Otherwise you get to RP in the Guilds themselves, participate in occasional smaller events to help them, engage members from other Guilds if two or more come into conflict, etc. Its deliberately designed so that non-Guild characters aren't at a disadvantage vs Guild characters. Zevox
MindWandererB 03-04-07, 09:40 PM	I'm almost ready to join, but I have another couple of questions: 1. When fights are posted on Wednesday, is it also posted which arena each fight will take place in? Or do the tactics sent to the Pitlord have to say "if in arena a, do x, if in arena b, do y"? 2. What are the advantages of belonging to a guild? I know about the bonus to leadership for followers, but are there any others? 1) Yes, it says. Take a sample from this week's fights for example: Jar-red (TelinArtho) vs. Valen Sky (Hirumajoe) : TheMagister [Plains] 2) Guilds provide no tangible benefits other than the leadership thing. It has been argued that going on guild-related activities can be easier ways of earning xp and gold than standard arena fights, but that belief is debatable. Mostly, guilds are for RP and a large-scale strategy element.
sonofzeal 03-04-07, 10:17 PM	Milov is offline, so I may as well ask here... The Mask Man is a Dromite Barbarian in a breastplate. Dromites have base land speed 20, and breastplates lower speed, but levels in barbarian raise it, and the result is different depending on what order you apply the modifiers in. Should his land speed be 20 or 25? The sheet says 20, but my intuition is 25.
MindWandererB 03-04-07, 10:21 PM	Milov is offline, so I may as well ask here... The Mask Man is a Dromite Barbarian in a breastplate. Dromites have base land speed 20, and breastplates lower speed, but levels in barbarian raise it, and the result is different depending on what order you apply the modifiers in. Should his land speed be 20 or 25? The sheet says 20, but my intuition is 25. It's a fairly obscure rule, but you apply armor after all other modifiers--including after things like Expeditious Retreat. I forget where that rule is, but it's come up before. So 20 is correct.
Milov 03-04-07, 10:22 PM	I was told the barbarian comes in first, as I PMed you, so it'd be... 20 (Base) + 10 (Barbarian)= 30 (New) 30 restricted to 20 via breastplate. Hence, only 20 ft movement.
NiQil 03-04-07, 10:23 PM	I was told the barbarian comes in first, as I PMed you, so it'd be... 20 (Base) + 10 (Barbarian)= 30 (New) 30 restricted to 20 via breastplate. Hence, only 20 ft movement. This is correct...bonuses are always added before penalties.
sonofzeal 03-04-07, 10:25 PM	Interresting! Is there a table somewhere that shows how armor interacts with speeds other than 20 and 30?
SauroGrenom 03-04-07, 10:27 PM	Interresting! Is there a table somewhere that shows how armor interacts with speeds other than 20 and 30?Yea. Look in the SRD. It's in the section amounts mounts in armor. It's listed with the details for armor on nonmedium sized creatures and non humanoid creatures.
hogarth 03-04-07, 10:35 PM	2. What are the advantages of belonging to a guild? I know about the bonus to leadership for followers, but are there any others? You get a "free" miniquest in order to join a guild that doesn't count towards your 1/level limit. It's not a big advantage, though.
sonofzeal 03-04-07, 10:38 PM	Yea. Look in the SRD. It's in the section amounts mounts in armor. It's listed with the details for armor on nonmedium sized creatures and non humanoid creatures. Ah yes, silly me.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-04-07, 11:19 PM	It bothers me that in the fight I just finished running, neither set of tactics seemed to pay any attention to that limit, and that's without counting contingency spells such as Hold Person. It really doesn't take much effort to count up how many spells/pp you're using in your buff list. The rule of thumb in my gaming group is that if the player forgets something they really should know, then the character forgets too. In this case, the end result is wasted actions. If this was in my gaming group, it could have been much worse. Well, you are in fact partially right. Follow the tactics as best as possible, and when it comes time for them to cast/manifest something they no longer have the points to, it is an oversight on the characters part, and they simply cannot accomplish the task. As a pitlord you would have to adapt that into the overall goal of their strategy. That in itself is a big enough penalty without penalizing them further. In the end, you'll have to use your best judgement. ToK
Yitzi 03-05-07, 12:32 AM	I made a character, and would to make sure it's all good. Lightwolf Phoenixstar Thanks.
sonofzeal 03-05-07, 12:51 AM	I made a character, and would to make sure it's all good. Lightwolf Phoenixstar Thanks. You should record that your expendables cap is 450 gp. You're well below that though, so no problems there. As for the rest, I'm fairly new here myself so I'm not the best one to ask. The character itself looks like a fairly bread-and-butter dependable archer. I'd be interested to see how well he does.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-05-07, 12:54 AM	I made a character, and would to make sure it's all good. Lightwolf Phoenixstar Thanks. Yup...a few SMALL mistakes...nothing major. Check out the Prison Thread. -ToK
Zevox 03-05-07, 12:57 AM	You know Tellish, you don't any prison credits for reporting on characters that haven't fought yet, much less those that aren't even on the roster yet :P . Zevox
NiQil 03-05-07, 01:03 AM	You know Tellish, you don't any prison credits for reporting on characters that haven't fought yet, much less those that aren't even on the roster yet :P . Zevox Ummmm....where is that written?
Tellish_of_Ket 03-05-07, 01:06 AM	You know Tellish, you don't any prison credits for reporting on characters that haven't fought yet, much less those that aren't even on the roster yet :P . Zevox Well, you do get credits for those who haven't fought, and as for not being on the roster, i'm working on the assumption he's sent Pitlords a PM to get on it. I guess if he never decides to fight or get on roster, i'd lose the credits. But i'm willing to risk that to be the first to report them....just in case ya know. ;) ToK
Zevox 03-05-07, 01:10 AM	Ummmm....where is that written? ...you're kidding me, right? I was told that way back when I joined when I tried reporting such a violation. Besides, it does make sense, given that it the character isn't on the roster they're not a gladiator here yet, and if they haven't activated yet they're still technically under construction and get benefits like the presumption of infinite crafting time and whatnot. Zevox
NiQil 03-05-07, 01:15 AM	...you're kidding me, right? I was told that way back when I joined when I tried reporting such a violation. Besides, it does make sense, given that it the character isn't on the roster they're not a gladiator here yet, and if they haven't activated yet they're still technically under construction and get benefits like the presumption of infinite crafting time and whatnot. Zevox The only criteria that the Prison has ever had limiting violation reporting is that they be a character who has either fought, set to ready, or someone has asked for a review of the character, or in the case of audits, has leveled at least once. I see violations reported all the time on PC's who aren't on the roster yet...most of them in the same fashion that ToK just did (because someone was done and posted it in the Tavern to get it double-checked). Heck....one of the more notable lines that LLMC ever used when he ran the prison was "Insta-Narc", because he would do the same thing...file reports on those that had posted characters asking to be looked over.
sonofzeal 03-05-07, 01:18 AM	All I know is Hajj was reported to prison not once but TWICE before he had his first fight. :eek:
NiQil 03-05-07, 01:20 AM	Blizzard and Wildfire will each need a questlord for a miniquest either this coming Wednesday the 7th, or in 3 weeks (the 21st), pending the outcome of their fights this week. Blizzard wants to make contact with a white dragon to enter the Dragon Disciple prestige class at level 6. Wildfire wants to burn down a building to enter the Pyrokineticist prestige class at level 6. Any takers?
MindWandererB 03-05-07, 01:25 AM	...you're kidding me, right? I was told that way back when I joined when I tried reporting such a violation. Besides, it does make sense, given that it the character isn't on the roster they're not a gladiator here yet, and if they haven't activated yet they're still technically under construction and get benefits like the presumption of infinite crafting time and whatnot. Zevox It may have been me that said that--although since I only got here a week before you, maybe not. It's allowed, but it's considered bad form. For one, new characters will of course have mistakes; for another, it's demoralizing to new players to end up in the Prison right off the bat.
MitzaVolchenko 03-05-07, 02:12 AM	It may have been me that said that--although since I only got here a week before you, maybe not. It's allowed, but it's considered bad form. For one, new characters will of course have mistakes; for another, it's demoralizing to new players to end up in the Prison right off the bat. Hmm...think that needs to be overruled by Cat or the elder council as a whole. Narcing on new non-activated characters just because someone asked for an extra eyeball on the sheet in the Tavern is absurd. Bad form, discouraging to new folks, and in my case, likely to cause me to stage a peaceful protest wherein I annoy everyone with incessant whinging and complaining and otherwise unhappy stuff. There is also potential for abuse in that. You get credits for hitting a character created but not activated...anyone else remember whatshisface and his 6 accounts...all of them with absolutely atrocious characters set up with horrendous numbers of violations? If it occurs to me as a potential exploit in under ten seconds, it will be abused.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-05-07, 02:18 AM	Hmm...think that needs to be overruled by Cat or the elder council as a whole. Narcing on new non-activated characters just because someone asked for an extra eyeball on the sheet in the Tavern is absurd. Bad form, discouraging to new folks, and in my case, likely to cause me to stage a peaceful protest wherein I annoy everyone with incessant whinging and complaining and otherwise unhappy stuff. There is also potential for abuse in that. You get credits for hitting a character created but not activated...anyone else remember whatshisface and his 6 accounts...all of them with absolutely atrocious characters set up with horrendous numbers of violations? If it occurs to me as a potential exploit in under ten seconds, it will be abused. I'll disagree with that part. In almost 3 years, i've never heard once...not even a whispered rumour, of someone being upset, leaving, or protesting because of that. In fact there is no penalty to the player for being reported to the prison at such an early stage. It just helps him get going faster because ppl are willing to help. As for the abuse, that was probably an isolated incidence (dunno, wasn't here for it) and i'm sure if that individual would have put even just HALF of all that energy into pitlord fights, he'd accrue credits far faster. AND, it's also VERY VERY rare i ever use the prison. I don't think i've ever even recieved a full credit in my entire history here. ToK
MitzaVolchenko 03-05-07, 02:30 AM	I'll disagree with that part. In almost 3 years, i've never heard once...not even a whispered rumour, of someone being upset, leaving, or protesting because of that. In fact there is no penalty to the player for being reported to the prison at such an early stage. It just helps him get going faster because ppl are willing to help. As for the abuse, that was probably an isolated incidence (dunno, wasn't here for it) and i'm sure if that individual would have put even just HALF of all that energy into pitlord fights, he'd accrue credits far faster. AND, it's also VERY VERY rare i ever use the prison. I don't think i've ever even recieved a full credit in my entire history here. ToK I'm not indicting you, hon. I am not sure, but I think whatshisface actually did report one of his other accounts to the prison. Feedback here or by PM is more encouraging and certainly friendlier. This thread is meant to be social, not a place where if you sepak up, all of a sudden you have to deal with a prison violation and hope whoever narc'd on you actually responds and tags it fixed in a timely fashion. Would it drive most people away? Probably not. Have we seen new folks come, activate a character, submit tactics, re-activate, submit tactics, hit week three and be red tagged, get upset and leave? I'll grant they might have left regardless but I recall at least one new person completely confused by the [P]. Rauul is a good example. He was prisoned and didn't know it...I didn't see it because I don't watch the prison (miss violations on mine unless Macbrea points them out or I get a PM)...and he actually made it as far as [P] tag and that was his third or so week on the board and his first week pitlording. Bottom line is that it is unneccessary in the build stage. That having ben said, audit Sybil and Zwei for me...I am sure there is still something wrong with them :P
Tellish_of_Ket 03-05-07, 02:39 AM	That having ben said, audit Sybil and Zwei for me...I am sure there is still something wrong with them :P One complete audit coming up. :) Question about OUTMANEUVER combat pkg: Since the time between fights is 1d6 hrs, would it be safe to assume that you can take off your armour, move to get into position, then put it back on for the fight? Sounds silly, i know, but just curious. ToK
Zevox 03-05-07, 02:48 AM	Question about OUTMANEUVER combat pkg: Since the time between fights is 1d6 hrs, would it be safe to assume that you can take off your armour, move to get into position, then put it back on for the fight? Sounds silly, i know, but just curious. ToK Eh, I'd have to say no. That ACP has to count for something if you have it (and if you don't, obviously this is an irrelevant question for you ;) ), and besides, its not like you know all those hours in advance when and where you'll be attacked. Zevox
Rauul 03-05-07, 03:29 AM	well if your auditing charaters that haven't been played or added to the roster... please Audit The corrupter (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11532929&postcount=1074), since he is there waiting for me to get 9 more credits and i mess with him daily when i need something else to do... Any help or ideas send my way.. LOL and if he gets in the prison... i will have time for his familiar to break him out :)
sonofzeal 03-05-07, 03:38 AM	I've been looking at the ally system, and.... if a character of mine wanted to have an ally with class levels (say a lvl1 orc barbarian to hold my flank), that could be done through Leadership or hiring mercs, but not through diplomacy, right?
Tellish_of_Ket 03-05-07, 03:58 AM	well if your auditing charaters that haven't been played or added to the roster... please Audit The corrupter (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11532929&postcount=1074), since he is there waiting for me to get 9 more credits and i mess with him daily when i need something else to do... Any help or ideas send my way.. LOL and if he gets in the prison... i will have time for his familiar to break him out :) I'll audit him when you get the credits and put him up on the roster. But i can tell you Free activity:Bookbinding +1260+16% = 1461 gp, 6sp is wrong. You make 884.48gp with ur skill. ToK
Rauul 03-05-07, 05:06 AM	I'll audit him when you get the credits and put him up on the roster. But i can tell you Free activity:Bookbinding +1260+16% = 1461 gp, 6sp is wrong. You make 884.48gp with ur skill. ToK heh ok.. (figured you would catch that) Question.. can a Earth Mephit Improved Familar wear armor/magic items that his "Master" makes for him? And Weapons?
hogarth 03-05-07, 06:52 AM	heh ok.. (figured you would catch that) Question.. can a Earth Mephit Improved Familar wear armor/magic items that his "Master" makes for him? And Weapons? A mephit/imp/quasit can easily wear armor and use magic items (subject to encumbrance, of course).
Abyssal Stalker 03-05-07, 06:58 AM	A mephit/imp/quasit can easily wear armor and use magic items (subject to encumbrance, of course). And the master can craft them, if that is what Rauul is asking. Crafting is limited only the other way round, allies can't craft to you, but I don't know a rule that would prevent characters crafting equipment to their allies.
Caterane 03-05-07, 07:03 AM	http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-190985.html http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-69954.html http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-548981.html <ctrl>-F is your friend. :) Wow thanks a lot. Email sent. The threads should work again soon.
Zevox 03-05-07, 08:48 AM	But i can tell you Free activity:Bookbinding +1260+16% = 1461 gp, 6sp is wrong. You make 884.48gp with ur skill. Actually, he makes far less than that. He gets (take 10+18=) 28 * 7 (level) = 196 + 16% = 227 gp with that skill. Zevox
hogarth 03-05-07, 10:58 AM	Reginald Molehusband needs to do a miniquest to find a leadership cohort. Is there anyone (not Telin!) who would be interested in picking it up, or should I just trust myself to the luck of the draw? By the way, as much as I like the roleplaying aspect of using a miniquest to find a leadership cohort, I have to say that I very much dislike the fact that if Reg fails his cohort miniquest he has to wait another level to try again. It doesn't sound like fun to have a feat that you can't even use just because of bad luck on a miniquest.
Rauul 03-05-07, 11:04 AM	Actually, he makes far less than that. He gets (take 10+18=) 28 * 7 (level) = 196 + 16% = 227 gp with that skill. Zevox Acually... Bookbinding +196gp + 16% = 227 gp, 3sp 6 cp (take 10+18=) 28 * 7 (level) = 196 + (16% of 196=31.36)= 227.36 (thats an extra gold piece per 3fc!!!!)
McJarvis 03-05-07, 11:13 AM	Reginald Molehusband needs to do a miniquest to find a leadership cohort. Is there anyone (not Telin!) who would be interested in picking it up, or should I just trust myself to the luck of the draw? By the way, as much as I like the roleplaying aspect of using a miniquest to find a leadership cohort, I have to say that I very much dislike the fact that if Reg fails his cohort miniquest he has to wait another level to try again. It doesn't sound like fun to have a feat that you can't even use just because of bad luck on a miniquest. You'll have to excuse me if I don't feel sorry for characters with the leadership feat. ;)
Zevox 03-05-07, 11:54 AM	Acually... Bookbinding +196gp + 16% = 227 gp, 3sp 6 cp (take 10+18=) 28 * 7 (level) = 196 + (16% of 196=31.36)= 227.36 (thats an extra gold piece per 3fc!!!!) Meh, I just round down myself. 1 gp every 3 fights isn't worth the hassle of keeping track of those extraneous coins. It takes 38 fights (I don't think we even have a character whos had that many fights yet) just to earn the 12.5 gp you need to scribe a 1st level CL 1 scroll on that :rolleyes: . Yeah, not worth it in my eyes. Zevox
McJarvis 03-05-07, 12:26 PM	It takes 38 fights (I don't think we even have a character whos had that many fights yet) Perius (Ravashack) [Power: 10791 (955); 14 won, 33 lost]
McJarvis 03-05-07, 12:36 PM	Generosity: The City of Gladius is still in the process of rebuilding from the destruction during the Year of Hell but much has been done already, not least thanks to generous characters. A Character can donate 5% of his earnings to the city which earns him a good reputation: he or she gains +1 to the leadership score. If you want to donate, write a PM to Pitlords. Technically, as long as the tag remains, Pitlords deduct an additional 5% from the character's rewards. The character can always choose to stop the donations but it will not take effect until he levels. Is this 5% from gp and xp, or just gp?
SauroGrenom 03-05-07, 12:44 PM	I think we need to ditch the process guild points missions. They are rapidly getting out of hand. If we don't ditch them, we need to do something to limit them. This week we have 10 of 12 quests are guild missions. Of those 10 guild missions I think 9 are related to this processing of guild points. I think our guild activities are clearly putting a drain on our resources. At the least we need to limit a guild to have only one such mission going on at the same time.
SauroGrenom 03-05-07, 12:44 PM	Is this 5% from gp and xp, or just gp?I think this applies only to gold rewards.
McJarvis 03-05-07, 12:49 PM	I think we need to ditch the process guild points missions. They are rapidly getting out of hand. If we don't ditch them, we need to do something to limit them. This week we have 10 of 12 quests are guild missions. Of those 10 guild missions I think 9 are related to this processing of guild points. I think our guild activities are clearly putting a drain on our resources. At the least we need to limit a guild to have only one such mission going on at the same time. Just restrict them to require 2 or more characters. That way the Pitlord:Gladiator ratio stays the same. On the same note: I think the missions are really exciting. They give great RP opportunity, and the PTS processing really gives individual gladiators a sense of helping out.
McJarvis 03-05-07, 12:50 PM	I think this applies only to gold rewards. Given that no one ever goes for this, could we make it gp & xp? Or somehow make the mechanic...used at all?
SauroGrenom 03-05-07, 01:07 PM	Just restrict them to require 2 or more characters. That way the Pitlord:Gladiator ratio stays the same. On the same note: I think the missions are really exciting. They give great RP opportunity, and the PTS processing really gives individual gladiators a sense of helping out.If there are 2 gladiators, then yes it's a net zero effect on the pitlord pool. But Missions take 3 weeks. Also some guilds are really eating up all the resources. There are 3 TLT-TAO missions going at the same time. There's a bunch of CEF missions going at the same time as well. If LOY or EHTC wanted to send someone on a mission, good luck finding a QL for that.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-05-07, 01:14 PM	Given that no one ever goes for this, could we make it gp & xp? Or somehow make the mechanic...used at all? If you take a penalty on XP (which i can't phatom how donating to a city coffers can make you lose life experience), then that means you are marginally more ahead in net gp production for your level given the skill sets. I don't think adding an -xp% to for just donating gp to the city coffers is a wise decision. ToK
TelinArtho 03-05-07, 01:14 PM	Reginald Molehusband needs to do a miniquest to find a leadership cohort. Is there anyone (not Telin!) who would be interested in picking it up, or should I just trust myself to the luck of the draw? By the way, as much as I like the roleplaying aspect of using a miniquest to find a leadership cohort, I have to say that I very much dislike the fact that if Reg fails his cohort miniquest he has to wait another level to try again. It doesn't sound like fun to have a feat that you can't even use just because of bad luck on a miniquest. Heh - don't worry - I'm officially off the roster until further notice. Time to get prepared for the baby...
McJarvis 03-05-07, 01:28 PM	If LOY or EHTC wanted to send someone on a mission, good luck finding a QL for that. Note that LOY has 2 dedicated Missionlords(MWB and Raul...though Raul might be pending? Regardless, I arranged for them to handle all of our missions)...so we're not going to be suffering. :)
McJarvis 03-05-07, 01:29 PM	then that means you are marginally more ahead in net gp production for your level given the skill sets. I don't think adding an -xp% to for just donating gp to the city coffers is a wise decision. ToK Then remove the rule entirely. No one uses it-> it's just taking up space.(a 5% penalty to your overal Gp wealth is too high for a meaily +1 to leadership)
MindWandererB 03-05-07, 01:31 PM	If there are 2 gladiators, then yes it's a net zero effect on the pitlord pool. But Missions take 3 weeks. Also some guilds are really eating up all the resources. There are 3 TLT-TAO missions going at the same time. There's a bunch of CEF missions going at the same time as well. If LOY or EHTC wanted to send someone on a mission, good luck finding a QL for that.Well, the rule (which hasn't been enforced before this week, but is now) is that if you can't find a QL, you don't get your quest. Besides, so what if a mission takes 3 weeks? That's 2 characters for 1 pitlord for each of those three weeks. If those characters weren't questing, they'd be in the arena (or at least, other characters of the same player would be), and the net difference would be zero. I've been looking at the ally system, and.... if a character of mine wanted to have an ally with class levels (say a lvl1 orc barbarian to hold my flank), that could be done through Leadership or hiring mercs, but not through diplomacy, right?Correct. And also note that the mercenary options are pretty limited.Then remove the rule entirely. No one uses it-> it's just taking up space.(a 5% penalty to your overal Gp wealth is too high for a meaily +1 to leadership)No reason to remove it unless it proves abusive. It's there because there's a "generosity" modifier listed in the SRD, and this is how it was decided to implement that. Besides, I could see using it--if I had Great Renown and lost it, I might pay the 5% to keep my cohort until I either level or figure out some other way to boost my Leadership score.
Abyssal Stalker 03-05-07, 01:31 PM	Reginald Molehusband needs to do a miniquest to find a leadership cohort. Is there anyone (not Telin!) who would be interested in picking it up, or should I just trust myself to the luck of the draw? By the way, as much as I like the roleplaying aspect of using a miniquest to find a leadership cohort, I have to say that I very much dislike the fact that if Reg fails his cohort miniquest he has to wait another level to try again. It doesn't sound like fun to have a feat that you can't even use just because of bad luck on a miniquest. You can sign me in. Just add my name to the title line.
McJarvis 03-05-07, 01:44 PM	Besides, I could see using it--if I had Great Renown and lost it, I might pay the 5% to keep my cohort until I either level or figure out some other way to boost my Leadership score. Ok, in that one *very* circumstantial situation it's useful...but if we made it a 5% reduction in gp/xp a gladiator could at least try to RP a generous character. As far as it making free activities more useful-> I would say that we should expand it to donating 5% of your total GP income from such activities.
hogarth 03-05-07, 03:20 PM	You can sign me in. Just add my name to the title line. Thanks, I will!
hogarth 03-05-07, 03:50 PM	Then remove the rule entirely. No one uses it-> it's just taking up space.(a 5% penalty to your overal Gp wealth is too high for a meaily +1 to leadership) Hmmm... I just had a thought. If Reginald Molehusband can make it to level 7 and spends 5% for the extra +1 modifier, he could have a leadership score of 10 -- enough for followers. Then he could get a shadow Diplomacy ally, too. 1 shadow + 2 1st level wizard followers = 1 mage armor + 1 reduce person + 1 mount + 1 protection from evil + 3 shadows. :devil:
Sindorin 03-05-07, 04:24 PM	I was updating Va'ria's sheet for this week and a what-if popped into my mind as I was looking over her feats. What if a Loremaster takes Secret Lore and through this class ability where you may take any feat the loremaster takes Leadership? You then quest for a cohort. Is this cohort going to count as a class feature for the purposes of ally limit/rewards? If so, maybe I should consider rearranging those feats and putting in for a character change...
TelinArtho 03-05-07, 04:27 PM	The class feature is the bonus feat, not the effects of the bonus feat. Sorry - no go on that one.
McJarvis 03-05-07, 04:32 PM	The class feature is the bonus feat, not the effects of the bonus feat. Sorry - no go on that one. So improved familiars don't count as class features? regardless-> Even if Leadership WAS counted as a class ally in this case, it would be restricted like the thrallherd is.
Zevox 03-05-07, 04:52 PM	So improved familiars don't count as class features? Of course it does. But there is a difference between Improved Familiar, which improves an ally which is a class feature itself, and Leadership, which grants an ally totally separately from the class. Zevox
Zevox 03-05-07, 05:16 PM	(Moved out of Prison) You are incorrectly calculating the madness score. It's WIS-score. 28-5=23(+6 modifier). So my saves and skills are correct. You are also incorrect on domain spells. Spells listed in your domain, are on your class list. You can prep as many of them as you wish. You are however correct on the typo of my first level DC saves. [FIXED!] I confess I may be wrong on the madness domain, as I'm not entirely familiar with it, but I know I'm totally correct on the spells. Its right in the Cleric class description about domains: Each domain gives the cleric access to a domain spell at each spell level he can cast, from 1st on up, as well as a granted power. The cleric gets the granted powers of both the domains selected. With access to two domain spells at a given spell level, a cleric prepares one or the other each day in his domain spell slot. If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, a cleric can prepare it only in his domain spell slot. Zevox
TelinArtho 03-05-07, 05:20 PM	I told him about it a week ago and I forgot to double check it - I resent him that passage as well though.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-05-07, 05:43 PM	Yes, if you look back to prison thread, i edited my commentary. I can honestly say, i never kenw that before. I guess you can teach an old dog new tricks. lol ToK
McJarvis 03-05-07, 06:28 PM	Two things. I'm not posting this in the prison because I'm honestly not sure that I am correct. However, I believe Va'ria Theladrais has illegally qualified for the Loremaster prestige class. Requirements To qualify to become a loremaster, a character must fulfill all the following criteria. Skills: Knowledge (any two) 10 ranks in each. Feats: Any three metamagic or item creation feats, plus Skill Focus (Knowledge [any individual Knowledge skill]). Spells: Able to cast seven different divination spells, one of which must be 3rd level or higher. Now, in particular I have always been taught(from the Char Op boards) that D&D logic does not mean "you must take three feats, of which you can choose from either metamagic or item creation feats", but rather "you may pick three feats: either they will be from the metamagic school of feats or the item creation school of feats" This is a rather simple fix, though: All she needs to do is switch Craft Wand & Extend Spell(and since fights can not be retroactively changed, this shouldn't make a big difference) On to other issues. Spell Storing: A spell storing weapon allows a spellcaster to store a single targeted spell of up to 3rd level in the weapon. A [whatever] spell uses up a spell slot [a number] levels higher than the spell’s actual level. This means I can store an empowered maximized scorching ray in a spell storing weapon, right? Since the metamagic feats don't change the spell level?(except heighten spell, of course)
MindWandererB 03-05-07, 06:34 PM	The Loremaster thing is debatable; I've never seen the interpretation you're espousing here. If it was "any three metamagic feats or any three item creation feats," I'd agree with you. But the phrasing is a little different. As for the other; the rules aren't always clear as to when a metamagiced spell counts as its original level or as the increased level. I'd go with the increased one, here. In any event, rays are not targeted spells, so scorching ray is a no-go for spell storing, anyhow.
Zevox 03-05-07, 06:40 PM	Aye, I'm with MWB on the former. The wording doesn't indicate it must be from only one category or the other, so I don't think thats the case. On the spell storing, I'd personally say you could indeed use a metamagiced low-level spell (as you note, only Heighten spell actually raises the spell level of the spell), but as MWB said Scorching Ray isn't a valid one anyway, so thats a bit of a moot point. Empowered Maximized Magic Missile, on the other hand, would be in my opinion. Zevox
Tellish_of_Ket 03-05-07, 06:45 PM	Actually Va'ria does qualify for Loremaster. Wizard 1: Scribe Scroll Level 1: Extend Spell Level 3: Spell Focus: Enchantment Wizard 5: Craft Wondrous Items Level 6: Skill Focus: Knowledge (Arcana) Loremaster 1: Craft Wand (Applicable Knowledge) Level 9: Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment Your wizard bonus feat of scribe scroll still counts. The qualifications are fully met by the PrC Any three metamagic or item creation feats... It doesn't say, any three metagic feats taken at any level above character creation. lol ToK
McJarvis 03-05-07, 06:46 PM	@MWB: Indeed, I debate for the interpretation that you now propose on the CharOp boards, but I was defeated. I don't really remember why, though...
McJarvis 03-05-07, 06:47 PM	Actually Va'ria does qualify for Loremaster. Wizard 1: Scribe Scroll Level 1: Extend Spell Level 3: Spell Focus: Enchantment Wizard 5: Craft Wondrous Items Level 6: Skill Focus: Knowledge (Arcana) Loremaster 1: Craft Wand (Applicable Knowledge) Level 9: Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment Your wizard bonus feat of scribe scroll still counts. The qualifications are fully met by the PrC Any three metamagic or item creation feats... It doesn't say, any three metagic feats taken at any level above character creation. lol ToK Ah..I think you misunderstood what I was getting at.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-05-07, 06:49 PM	As for the other; the rules aren't always clear as to when a metamagiced spell counts as its original level or as the increased level. I'd go with the increased one, here. In any event, rays are not targeted spells, so scorching ray is a no-go for spell storing, anyhow. MWB is correct. A meta-magicked spell only USES A SLOT of a higher level and does not count as a higher level spell...that's what heighten spell is for. If u memorize an empowered fireball, the DC doesn't go up by 2, it only USES A SLOT two levels higher, it is still a 3rd level spell. Otherwise Heighten Spell would be the most useless feat in all of DnD. ToK
sonofzeal 03-05-07, 06:58 PM	This is correct. Unused spell levels/pp carry over between fights, and you can always use anything you have left in your 3rd fight. This is part of why we have the cycle, rather than just restricting casters to 1/3 spells as we used to - they have to prepare their spells such that they'll be useful over 3 full fights. Zevox I always assumed that the limit was there to prevent a wizard/psion from dumping all their pp/spells in a single fight and blowing anything away, but if they can do that in the third fight of the cycle anyway, then what's the point? Personally, despite the fact that it's probably help me overall, I'd rather see the 1/3 spell thing applied constantly with no carryover. The result would be that if you used no spells in Fight 1 and 2, you can't blow them away in Fight 3 but at least you have a richer spell pool to choose from.
McJarvis 03-05-07, 07:01 PM	I always assumed that the limit was there to prevent a wizard/psion from dumping all their pp/spells in a single fight and blowing anything away, but if they can do that in the third fight of the cycle anyway, then what's the point? Personally, despite the fact that it's probably help me overall, I'd rather see the 1/3 spell thing applied constantly with no carryover. The result would be that if you used no spells in Fight 1 and 2, you can't blow them away in Fight 3 but at least you have a richer spell pool to choose from. The problem with that is it effectively gives them ALOT more versatility. Right now Psions/Wizards are worse off than they used to be(IMO) If you were a smart wizard/cleric, you would just store a different spell in every slot & then only use the ones you needed for that particular battle. Even if 90% of battles you only used certain spells, you could use 2/3 of your spell storage as "break the glass in case of emergency" type of things...
McJarvis 03-05-07, 07:05 PM	@Zevox: Pretty much the best would be a maximized empowered shocking grasp, no? Magic missile's norm advantage of the auto-hit is removed with a spell storing weapon(since you have to have already hit) 5d4+5 == 25 + (.5)*[5d4+5] damage from magic missile 5d6 == 30 + (.5)*[5d6] damage from shocking grasps Averages: (.5)*[5d4+5]= (.5)*[17.5]= 8.75 (.5)*[5d6] = (.5)*17.5= 8.75 = Shocking grasp gets five higher damage :D Of course, +38.75 damage isn't _that_ great for a 6th level spell...but it's a sure hit, I guess. And of course, you could think of it as a 10th level spell (quicken spell b/c you just use it when you want to)
sonofzeal 03-05-07, 07:06 PM	The problem with that is it effectively gives them ALOT more versatility. Right now Psions/Wizards are worse off than they used to be(IMO) If you were a smart wizard/cleric, you would just store a different spell in every slot & then only use the ones you needed for that particular battle. Even if 90% of battles you only used certain spells, you could use 2/3 of your spell storage as "break the glass in case of emergency" type of things... I understand that. Allowing for full versitility is an unfair advantage, but so is spell-spamming on the third fight of the cycle. What I meant to say was I'd prefer to see BOTH limits in effect - that spells get used up throughout the 3FC, and that no more than 1/3 (rounded up) can be used in a particular fight.
McJarvis 03-05-07, 07:08 PM	I understand that. Allowing for full versitility is an unfair advantage, but so is spell-spamming on the third fight of the cycle. What I meant to say was I'd prefer to see BOTH limits in effect - that spells get used up throughout the 3FC, and that no more than 1/3 (rounded up) can be used in a particular fight. ...which will just give them that same versatility in the third fight. With Artificer I don't just do a "Spell dump" on my third match... edit-> ....since it doesn't affect me, go for it! :)
Zevox 03-05-07, 07:21 PM	@ sonofzeal - The thing about carrying over spells is that casters tend to use most, if not all, of the levels they're allowed to in most fights, save in the instances where a save-or-die works. Its not terribly common that they get a boatload of spells/pp in the final fight - a few spells/pp certainly, but not much. And if they weren't allowed to have things carry over, it would be unfair to them anyway, since they wouldn't be allowed to use their full potential unless they max out the spells they use every fight. The idea behind the 3FC was to make things around here more like in a TT game, where you typically have 3 encounters per day - in such situations they're forced to conserve spells in earlier fights to make sure they're not useless in later ones, but in the last ones they don't need to worry about that as much. So it achieves its goal as-is. And to be honest, I don't think theres any need to make casters less effective at this point. The many restrictions they have already are enough. Zevox
sonofzeal 03-05-07, 07:29 PM	...which will just give them that same versatility in the third fight. With Artificer I don't just do a "Spell dump" on my third match... I don't understand what you mean. It wouldn't give them any more versitility in any of the fights than they already have, it would merely prevent the potential for spell spamming. And I know not all casters (or even a majority) spam, but I don't think a mage at the end of their 3FC with most of their spells unused should be a thing of dread akin to max roll for # of dragons in a monster fight. Maybe that's an exaggeration, but I've heard a number of comments to that effect in the past few weeks here.
Zevox 03-05-07, 07:39 PM	Maybe that's an exaggeration, but I've heard a number of comments to that effect in the past few weeks here. *chuckles* I suspect what you've heard is the fallout from an event with one of my characters, Istima Telarc. He was recently in a held-over fight for 3 weeks, and in order to avoid going into a 4th and because he was running out of time before the Iron Man to get into enough fights to finish his current cycle I had him surrender the fight. As a result, the next week he had double his normal pp, and because he used far less than even 1/3 in that fight and leveled up from it he this week has the rather insane sum of 64 pp (out of 80) available. Its a pretty unique case, and certainly wouldn't have happened if that one fight hadn't had the misfortune to always get assigned pitlords who ran into RL troubles and couldn't run it. Zevox
sonofzeal 03-05-07, 07:49 PM	*chuckles* I suspect what you've heard is the fallout from an event with one of my characters, Istima Telarc. He was recently in a held-over fight for 3 weeks, and in order to avoid going into a 4th and because he was running out of time before the Iron Man to get into enough fights to finish his current cycle I had him surrender the fight. As a result, the next week he had double his normal pp, and because he used far less than even 1/3 in that fight and leveled up from it he this week has the rather insane sum of 64 pp (out of 80) available. Its a pretty unique case, and certainly wouldn't have happened if that one fight hadn't had the misfortune to always get assigned pitlords who ran into RL troubles and couldn't run it. Zevox But couldn't a character do that, or just about, on purpose? For example, the first fight I ran was Truls vs Balthazar; Balthazar had virtually no chance and knew it, so he charged straight in and didn't use any expendables or spells, meaning (in theory) he had extra resources going into his next fight. I could imagine a psion deliberately tossing his first or second fight in order to get the Istima vibe going. .....or is this one of those examples of loopholes that will stand until someone ruthelessly exploits it? :cool:
Eluria 03-05-07, 08:05 PM	I could imagine a psion deliberately tossing his first or second fight in order to get the Istima vibe going. .....or is this one of those examples of loopholes that will stand until someone ruthelessly exploits it? :cool: I'm new here, and my record isn't great, and I rarely chime in, but I have to point out that using the above tactic nets you 2 losses and 1 win, even if it works perfectly, every 3FC. That's not such a great loophole :)
Zevox 03-05-07, 08:05 PM	But couldn't a character do that, or just about, on purpose? For example, the first fight I ran was Truls vs Balthazar; Balthazar had virtually no chance and knew it, so he charged straight in and didn't use any expendables or spells, meaning (in theory) he had extra resources going into his next fight. I could imagine a psion deliberately tossing his first or second fight in order to get the Istima vibe going. .....or is this one of those examples of loopholes that will stand until someone ruthelessly exploits it? :cool: *shrugs* If a caster wants to throw his first fight or two for extra power in subsequent fights, I say let him. Hes choosing to lose at least one of his three fights, and extra pp/spells doesn't guarantee victory in the subsequent ones, so he may just be giving himself an unnecessary loss only to find an unavoidable loss later and lose 2 or all 3 fights in spite of that. Its a gamble, and its losing him at least one fight per cycle - works for me. Besides, like I said, part of Istima's incident was the low pp consumption in his second fight, and a bigger part was his leveling up in that fight. Had he not leveled, he'd have about 20 pp less to work with, less if he hadn't gotten the luck he did in his second fight (opponent with 8 charisma rolled a natural 1 on a save vs a 7 damage ego whip - ouchy). Zevox
sonofzeal 03-05-07, 08:14 PM	Then why have the 1/3 spells limit at all? If you're okay with a character trading off power in one or two fights to get extra power in a different one, then why's that limit there in the first place? All it does, from what I can see, is mean that the spell-spamming has to be in the third fight instead of the second or first.
Zevox 03-05-07, 08:23 PM	Then why have the 1/3 spells limit at all? If you're okay with a character trading off power in one or two fights to get extra power in a different one, then why's that limit there in the first place? All it does, from what I can see, is mean that the spell-spamming has to be in the third fight instead of the second or first. Well, it makes the option less appealing, since your choice is between intentionally losing a fight for extra power and trying your best with what you have an probably winding up with about 1/3 available per fight anyway, rather than going all-out in fight 1 just because you never want to accept a defeat you might avoid. I believe that was part of Cat's reasoning for keeping the rule. You are correct though, a similar effect could be achieved by removing the 1/3 rule altogether, and a number of folks argued for that when the 3FC was created. Personally, I'd be just fine with that as well, since the player has to live with the consequences of their choices if they choose to overuse (or under-use for that matter) in fight 1 or 2. Cat decided he wanted to keep it in this form though, so here we are. Zevox
hogarth 03-05-07, 08:29 PM	Then why have the 1/3 spells limit at all? If you're okay with a character trading off power in one or two fights to get extra power in a different one, then why's that limit there in the first place? All it does, from what I can see, is mean that the spell-spamming has to be in the third fight instead of the second or first. Yup, I came to the same conclusion. So you can use wands and other expendables at the beginning of the cycle, then spells/powers at the end of the cycle. Aside from nerfing spellcasters altogether, I didn't come up with a better idea.
sonofzeal 03-05-07, 08:39 PM	Yup, I came to the same conclusion. So you can use wands and other expendables at the beginning of the cycle, then spells/powers at the end of the cycle. Aside from nerfing spellcasters altogether, I didn't come up with a better idea. I still like the idea of imposing the 1/3 limit as a constant throughout all three fights, in addition to tracking spells-used. It does reduce the power of spellcasters slightly (or not at all, if they're rationing out their spells evenly), but it's not like casters are hurting under the current system, seeing as how Wizard and Psion are the two most popular classes.
Zevox 03-05-07, 08:46 PM	I still like the idea of imposing the 1/3 limit as a constant throughout all three fights, in addition to tracking spells-used. It does reduce the power of spellcasters slightly (or not at all, if they're rationing out their spells evenly), but it's not like casters are hurting under the current system, seeing as how Wizard and Psion are the two most popular classes. I seriously doubt such a rule would change that. Casters are inherently more powerful than non-casters to begin with, given how much can be done with magic that nothing a physical character can do comes close to. Aside from the obvious fun factor that gives them for players, players around here tend to try to create powerful characters to start with, and even one level in caster class tends to make them more powerful than if they have none. Zevox
McJarvis 03-05-07, 08:53 PM	Taken from a "Mavaning" POV, it might be interesting to play a kineticist who just scoops his first two fights to get better GP results, then throws all his PP at his third fight in the cycle every time ;) ~McJarvis~
NiQil 03-05-07, 08:55 PM	I still like the idea of imposing the 1/3 limit as a constant throughout all three fights, in addition to tracking spells-used. It does reduce the power of spellcasters slightly (or not at all, if they're rationing out their spells evenly), but it's not like casters are hurting under the current system, seeing as how Wizard and Psion are the two most popular classes. Here's the problem with that logic. Why should casters be penalized in the use of their class feature that way? Use it or lose it? Does that mean that an 8th level barbarian that doesn't rage every battle should lose one of his rages per day, since he will have the ability to rage every fight at that point? Or how about a Xeph, who has a racial burst ability useable 3 times a day. If they don't use it in each battle, should they lose one of those uses? Or how about a cleric's turn undead attempts? Or a warmind's abilities? See my point? Where do you draw the line? Why should casters lose their x/day abilities if they don't use them when no other class does? All x/day abilities run the same way. If that cleric is using their turn undead attempts to power Divine feats, should they lose the attempts per day because they didn't use them? Or should a paladin lose their smites if they don't use them or can't use them because their opponent isn't evil? That's why casters get to keep their left over spells.
sonofzeal 03-05-07, 08:59 PM	I seriously doubt such a rule would change that. Casters are inherently more powerful than non-casters to begin with, given how much can be done with magic that nothing a physical character can do comes close to. Aside from the obvious fun factor that gives them for players, players around here tend to try to create powerful characters to start with, and even one level in caster class tends to make them more powerful than if they have none. Zevox I'm not saying it would change that, only that we don't really have to worry about casters being put at a disadvantage at this point.
MindWandererB 03-05-07, 08:59 PM	Does that mean that an 8th level barbarian that doesn't rage every battle should lose one of his rages per day, since he will have the ability to rage every fight at that point?Everyone keeps messing this one up... they only get one rage per encounter anyway. But the 1/3 rule can be frustrating sometimes. If I have a cleric who gets into a monster battle with undead on Fight 1, it's silly that I can't blow all my Turn Undeads right there, since I probably won't use them any other way. Or worse, my plant-domain ability on Kervan.
NiQil 03-05-07, 09:01 PM	Everyone keeps messing this one up... they only get one rage per encounter anyway. But the 1/3 rule can be frustrating sometimes. If I have a cleric who gets into a monster battle with undead on Fight 1, it's silly that I can't blow all my Turn Undeads right there, since I probably won't use them any other way. Or worse, my plant-domain ability on Kervan. Ah, but on the flipside, would it be fair that you lose them if you don't use them? Edit: Also, with regard to the barbarian thing....now that the higher leagues are unfreezing, we might have to houserule that portion of rage away, otherwise barbarians are going to get unfairly penalized as they advance and gain more uses of rage.
Zevox 03-05-07, 09:08 PM	Edit: Also, with regard to the barbarian thing....now that the higher leagues are unfreezing, we might have to houserule that portion of rage away, otherwise barbarians are going to get unfairly penalized as they advance and gain more uses of rage. I'm sure we'll put a lot of thought into such a house-rule as soon as a Barbarian gets to that point ;) . Zevox
Tellish_of_Ket 03-05-07, 09:33 PM	I'm not sure what the problem is. This is a perfect emulation of a TT game if it were in the same place. You have 3 fights per day, you can use up to 1/3 (growing) per fight as a simulation to "preserving" your strength for future encounters. But as sunset nears and you are settling in for the night you know you can afford to blow off the rest of ur spell list. But either way, not gonna argue semantics, it's as fair and balanced of a rule that you will ever see that doesn't give complete and supreme power to spellcasters. ToK
Abyssal Stalker 03-06-07, 04:18 AM	@MWB: Your new character looks good... :D That picture saved my day! :rofl: He'd fit in any of the "metal" bands of the 80s...
Erithmu 03-06-07, 09:52 AM	@MWB: Your new character looks good... :D That picture saved my day! :rofl: He'd fit in any of the "metal" bands of the 80s... I might have to download a song for every time I pitlord him.
TaggIIV 03-06-07, 10:03 AM	I was reading the (new?) rules on 3 fight cycle and expendables. A couple of questions - so for a class ability 1/day, it can be used once every 3 fights? And for the expendable limit 50xECL² is that a limit on how much you can own or how much you can use per fight (or 3 fight cycle)?
hogarth 03-06-07, 10:09 AM	I was reading the (new?) rules on 3 fight cycle and expendables. A couple of questions - so for a class ability 1/day, it can be used once every 3 fights? And for the expendable limit 50xECL² is that a limit on how much you can own or how much you can use per fight (or 3 fight cycle)? Yes, a 1/day ability can be used once per 3 Fight Cycle. The expendables cap is a maximum that you can own at any time.
TelinArtho 03-06-07, 11:38 AM	One more level... just one more and Jar-red becomes very very nasty in all maps... Jar-red Human Afflicted Were-Deinonychus Barbarian 1/Druid 1 (ECL8) Plus, once he picks up his animal companion, he'll actually have something to spend his money on... Riding dog not too impressive? Let's see how you face one with 10-15kgp worth of equipment...
sonofzeal 03-06-07, 12:30 PM	Question... (I know, I ask to many... :P ) Does Studded Leather count as a metal armour or not? If it is, then it should be able to gain the benefits of Mithril/Adamantine/Dragonhide, right?
hogarth 03-06-07, 12:40 PM	Question... (I know, I ask to many... :P ) Does Studded Leather count as a metal armour or not? If it is, then it should be able to gain the benefits of Mithril/Adamantine/Dragonhide, right? Yes and no. It's not an item "primarily of metal" so it's not "meaningfully affected by being partially made of mithral". According to CoCo house rules, you can make studded leather out of dragonhide. I'm not sure if adamantine studded leather is possible -- the rules don't have the same "primarily of metal" wording as with mithral.
Papapeperoni 03-06-07, 12:59 PM	Hey there everyone, I guess I'm back :D I won't give up with me olde monks, so here is Agtarn Listay. Would anyone please check him for mistakes? Did I miss anything? :P Greetings, -Papapeperoni
MindWandererB 03-06-07, 01:00 PM	@MWB: Your new character looks good... :D That picture saved my day! :rofl: He'd fit in any of the "metal" bands of the 80s...I might have to download a song for every time I pitlord him.Heh... I specifically designed him in response to a discussion with McJarvis about the lack of LOY quest characters. He's strictly a team player, and it's unlikely that he'll ever see a pitlord (just questlords). After I put the build together, I just couldn't imagine him looking any different... I spend about an hour searching for images of Fabio. This one was just perfect. He'll be getting the chick as a cohort. BTW, now that's he's been spotted, I might as well open him up for the usual peer review. Bear in mind that 1) I haven't paid for the gauntlets yes, I know, but I'm waiting to spend credits until I'm 100% sure about the build, and 2) he is designed strictly for team play, and primarily for quests. His advancement will be in rogue from now on--he's my attempt at a sneak attack build, with the Divine Might as a bonus (and for sneak-attack immune critters). I particularly welcome any suggestions as to how to get his AC and attack bonus up. Those are the two areas I'm most worried about. A bit more gear will help--I've never spent a character down to 1 cp before!
MindWandererB 03-06-07, 01:04 PM	Hey there everyone, I guess I'm back :D I won't give up with me olde monks, so here is Agtarn Listay. Would anyone please check him for mistakes? Did I miss anything? :P Greetings, -Papapeperoni Couple things. Weapon Finesse requires +1 BAB, so that's an illegal feat for him right now. His Weight Carried is not 0. You're probably better off with Magic Weapon over Magic Fang. They both work on monk fists, and the Weapon also works on the crossbow.
Hirumajoe 03-06-07, 01:13 PM	In regards to guild rules, whats the upkeep cost on 10 unassigned staff? Although from McJarvis' GAP report this week he seems to think its 50gp a week. However, given that a class A structure that needs 40 staff only has an upkeep of 50gp a week, that implies more along the lines of 10gp for 10 staff. Thanks, Hirumajoe
hogarth 03-06-07, 01:47 PM	What is the rationale behind requiring a specific form for scrolls of Alter Self, Polymorph, etc.?
Papapeperoni 03-06-07, 01:58 PM	Monk has BAB of 1 at lvl 2, so I don't see why it's illegal. I'll change it to Weapon ASAP :) Greetings, -Papapeperoni
McJarvis 03-06-07, 02:01 PM	What is the rationale behind requiring a specific form for scrolls of Alter Self, Polymorph, etc.? Magic is impressive, so we want swords for everyone! ie-> nerf.
hogarth 03-06-07, 02:04 PM	Magic is impressive, so we want swords for everyone! ie-> nerf. The only thing is that I find it hard to imagine how having a scroll of Alter Self is so much more powerful than having a scroll of Alter Self (Troglodyte), and yet memorizing a spell of Alter Self is perfectly fine. Was there someone actually abusing this, or was this just an example of the Nerf Fairy using her Nerf Wand at random on the SRD? ;)
TelinArtho 03-06-07, 02:06 PM	I think it was more of a universal nerf of Polymorph and related spells rather than a specific nerf of Alter Self.
hogarth 03-06-07, 02:08 PM	I think it was more of a universal nerf of Polymorph and related spells rather than a specific nerf of Alter Self. I don't have a philosophical issue against nerfing Polymorph, but why pick on scrolls in particular?
TelinArtho 03-06-07, 02:15 PM	I am currently looking ahead on Bulgar's progression. Essentially, he's picking up cleric levels for the remainder of his career, but I'm unsure of what feats I want to get for him. Here's some rules that he's working with: 1. He's a hunter - not a crafter. No crafting feats. Other than that, he's pretty wide open. Bearing in mind that his primary focus is dragon slaying, but also making sure he is a viable character in other situations as well. Here's some of the ideas I'm tossing around: 1. Lightning Reflexes. Obviously, death by breath weapon is high on his list of things to avoid. Gaining something that makes his reflex save a little more reasonable is certainly an area he is considering. 2. Quickdraw. This has a number of benefits, but essentially he doesn't have to waste actions drawing weapons. In a fight against dragons - you don't want to be wasting an action here or there - you just don't have that much time. That said, he won't have a +6 BAB until ECL8, so he wouldn't necessarily need this until then (I hope). After that point it becomes much more of an issue though. 3. Exotic Weapon Prof - Bola. This I'm not sure about. The goal is to trip up a flying dragon. Touch ACs tend to be pretty low for dragons, and with his decent range increment, this may not be such an important focus. Adding the feat would certainly make a bola a more reasonable option for him (where - at the moment, tanglefoot bags are just superior in every way...). 4. Spell Penetration - dragons with SR don't come up until later on, but having to worry less about his spells making it through is certainly something I am considering - especially since he is not a full caster. The other side of this is that he doesn't have a lot of spells that he would actually use against a dragon. His low WIS makes things with saving throws next to negligible against a dragon as well... Anyway - always open to listen to ideas. Let me hear what you've got. EDIT: Some more thoughts: 5. Dodge/Mobility - since Bulgar focuses on getting the dragon down, but uses a reach weapon, the bonus to AC from mobility is certainly worth consideration. 6. Combat reflexes - this would help take better advantage of the dragon being knocked to the ground who then stands and tries to move away.
False_Keraptis 03-06-07, 02:42 PM	Totally random thought: is a gargantuan bastard sword better than a gargantuan greatsword? Medium: 1d10 (5.5 avg) v. 2d6 (7 avg) Large: 2d8 (9 avg) v. 3d6 (10.5 avg) Huge: 3d8 (13.5 avg) v. 4d6 (14 avg) Gargantuan: 4d8 (18 avg) v. 5d6 (17.5 avg) Am I missing something here? Do I have the die progressions wrong, perhaps?
TelinArtho 03-06-07, 02:51 PM	Yup - gargantuan greatsword deals 6d6 damage - not 5d6. 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6. A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.
TelinArtho 03-06-07, 02:55 PM	Monk has BAB of 1 at lvl 2, so I don't see why it's illegal. I'll change it to Weapon ASAP :) Greetings, -Papapeperoni Well the rationale is simple. You picked up Weapon Finesse at level 1. At level 1, your BAB is +0, not +1.
TelinArtho 03-06-07, 02:58 PM	I don't have a philosophical issue against nerfing Polymorph, but why pick on scrolls in particular? Because before the expendable cap, scrolls were the most commonly available tool for ensuring a win. If you could have a scroll of Polymorph, you didn't have to be high enough level to cast to still get its benefits. By introducing the knowledge requirements and placing restrictions on the scrolls, it becomes harder and more expensive to use (in terms of skill points and cash if you want to have several different forms available). But bear in mind - polymorph has been nerfed more than just the scrolls - the knowledge requirement can also be rather severe (in some rare cases...).
McJarvis 03-06-07, 02:59 PM	I don't have a philosophical issue against nerfing Polymorph, but why pick on scrolls in particular? I think it's to nerf protection from energy & energy missles too, though I'm not sure if that's intentional or just a result of the ruling...
hogarth 03-06-07, 03:06 PM	I think it's to nerf protection from energy & energy missles too, though I'm not sure if that's intentional or just a result of the ruling... ...except that scrolls/power stones of resist energy work just fine (despite what it implies in the Rules of Gladius). At least that's what I was told, and that's what Caterane (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5179937#post5179937) seems to believe (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5179942#post5179942). Potions are a different matter, of course; the creator of the potion chooses the energy type. It's really just the Polymorph line of spell scrolls that's being discriminated against.
TelinArtho 03-06-07, 03:07 PM	That was an accidental inclusion in the rules. It has been mentioned before but Cat has not edited it out yet. Feel free to send him a PM and nag him about it though...
SauroGrenom 03-06-07, 03:25 PM	The only thing is that I find it hard to imagine how having a scroll of Alter Self is so much more powerful than having a scroll of Alter Self (Troglodyte), and yet memorizing a spell of Alter Self is perfectly fine. Was there someone actually abusing this, or was this just an example of the Nerf Fairy using her Nerf Wand at random on the SRD? ;)What the nerf was caused by is the fact that polymorph (and to a lesser extent Alter Self) allows so many forms it's nearly impossible to write tactics against it. The same character could be a Remoraz, or a Flying Outsider, or Xorn, or... anything. Also a character could carry three polymorph scrolls and memorize a bevy of spells for other stuff that has a high save DC. Then in the fight they morph into an invulnerable form specifically chosen to address the weakness of your character, and they cast crazy spells at you with high save DC's. The cleric Barthleby was one such character that used this tactic. He was able to get his AC so high that ECL9 archery specialized fighters with magical bows couldn't hit except on a natural 20. The same character could out grapple anyone as a Remoraz... and he had a form for everything. The Knowledge requirement and the scroll's being limited to a specific form makes it possible to write tactics against the opponent. You can expect a relatively limited number of forms. Or in the least he spends lots of skills on knowledge and spell slots on polymorph (that's less save or die spells).
hogarth 03-06-07, 04:12 PM	I guess that makes sense; your tactics could get incredibly long if you had to cover every possible shape your opponent might take! What the nerf was caused by is the fact that polymorph (and to a lesser extent Alter Self) allows so many forms it's nearly impossible to write tactics against it. The same character could be a Remoraz, or a Flying Outsider, or Xorn, or... anything. Also a character could carry three polymorph scrolls and memorize a bevy of spells for other stuff that has a high save DC. Then in the fight they morph into an invulnerable form specifically chosen to address the weakness of your character, and they cast crazy spells at you with high save DC's. The cleric Barthleby was one such character that used this tactic. He was able to get his AC so high that ECL9 archery specialized fighters with magical bows couldn't hit except on a natural 20. The same character could out grapple anyone as a Remoraz... and he had a form for everything. The Knowledge requirement and the scroll's being limited to a specific form makes it possible to write tactics against the opponent. You can expect a relatively limited number of forms. Or in the least he spends lots of skills on knowledge and spell slots on polymorph (that's less save or die spells).
TelinArtho 03-06-07, 04:21 PM	As many of you know, I don't often take a look at the psionic section of the SRD. I happened to be looking through the magic armor section and came across something that just seems overly powerful for the cost: Radiant... Radiant: The wearer of this kind of armor gains resistance 10 against energy attacks (acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic). The armor absorbs the first 10 points of damage dealt by any such attack, and this absorption causes it to radiate light for a number of rounds equal to the points of damage absorbed. This light is sufficient to illuminate a 60-foot-radius area. If the armor absorbs more damage while it is radiating light, the newer radiant effect overlaps (does not stack with) the effect that was already in place. Moderate psychokinesis; ML 9th; Craft Psionic Arms and Armor; energy adaptation; Price +4 bonus. So a suit of +1 Radiant Full Plate is 1650 + 25000gp = 26500gp. It gives resistance 10 to all 5 elements. Compare this to a suit of Full Plate with the Resistance enhancements placed on it: 1650gp + 18000gp*5 = 91650gp. Granted in the latter case, you have the ability to upgrade the armor on the cheap... making it +2 would only be an additional 3000gp. I guess I can't see the reason why anyone would get the individual resistance upgrades when the radiant enhancement covers it all for so much less cost...
McJarvis 03-06-07, 04:21 PM	Of course, a certain transmuter loremaster might change things.... <_< >_> edit-> @ Telin's issue: I'm sure there are many things like that that go in reverse as well...just try comparing the expeditious retreat and jump spells.(for raw jump bonus alone) :-O
hogarth 03-06-07, 04:28 PM	I guess I can't see the reason why anyone would get the individual resistance upgrades when the radiant enhancement covers it all for so much less cost... I can't imagine anyone buying one of the individual resistance upgrades, period. They're pretty overpriced, IMO. EDIT: Here's another example -- Mithral buckler +1 of SR 19 = 37K Scarab of Protection (SR 20) = 38K Mantle of SR 21 = 90K (?!)
MindWandererB 03-06-07, 04:39 PM	In regards to guild rules, whats the upkeep cost on 10 unassigned staff? Although from McJarvis' GAP report this week he seems to think its 50gp a week. However, given that a class A structure that needs 40 staff only has an upkeep of 50gp a week, that implies more along the lines of 10gp for 10 staff. Thanks, Hirumajoe That rule is found in the Structures section: Staff Info III: Staff must be assigned to a structure. Unassigned staff costs 5 gp/staff per week until it is assigned to a structure. You cannot assign staff to an incomplete structure.
Hirumajoe 03-06-07, 04:44 PM	Ahh. Thanks. Seems a tad odd to me that 40 staff doing nothing costs 200 a week and that 40 staff plus building upkeep costs 50 a week. Gladius must have a really good wellfare system or required benefits packages. :D
Macbrea 03-06-07, 04:53 PM	So, did we ever decide what slots go on wolf, dogs and worgs? I need to figure it out for Razorfang.
TelinArtho 03-06-07, 04:56 PM	So, did we ever decide what slots go on wolf, dogs and worgs? I need to figure it out for Razorfang. Nope - not yet. You'll probably need to petition for each individual piece as it comes up. Just so you know though - it looks like you shorted yourself on Str. A Worg has a +6 bonus to str, not +3. EDIT - same thing on dex and con - they should be racial bonuses of +4 on each one.
hogarth 03-06-07, 04:57 PM	So, did we ever decide what slots go on wolf, dogs and worgs? I need to figure it out for Razorfang. I'd say it would be the same as for a psicrystal (see Courtroom of Gladius decisions for the exact list).
Macbrea 03-06-07, 05:05 PM	Shorted myself across the board.. :P He looks a tad more physical now.
Hirumajoe 03-06-07, 05:09 PM	Umm... I don't think monsters gain bonus stats for initial racial hit dice (although I could be wrong). Thus in the 4HD worg, I don't think you get the +1 to Strength for your 4 magical beast HD. You'd start counting with your 5th HD onward (whether that's monster or class or whatever).
TelinArtho 03-06-07, 05:11 PM	Umm... I don't think monsters gain bonus stats for initial racial hit dice (although I could be wrong). Thus in the 4HD worg, I don't think you get the +1 to Strength for your 4 magical beast HD. You'd start counting with your 5th HD onward (whether that's monster or class or whatever). I believe you are wrong on this one - but if you do find a source for that statement - please do post it (since there's more than a few characters who would be in violation then...
MindWandererB 03-06-07, 05:18 PM	I believe you are wrong on this one - but if you do find a source for that statement - please do post it (since there's more than a few characters who would be in violation then... Hirumajoe is correct--the initial HD already take these increases into account. Otherwise you'd get into an eternal spiral: You design the monster, then you add its ability score increases, but then if you look at the result, it has higher ability scores, and thus a higher racial bonus, and you start the process over again. However, I can't find a specific source for this. Not my day....
SauroGrenom 03-06-07, 05:19 PM	I believe you are wrong on this one - but if you do find a source for that statement - please do post it (since there's more than a few characters who would be in violation then...I've wrangled over this one before, and I think it was determined that they don't get stat boosts for the racial HD already listed in the monster entry... let me see if I can find it in the SRD. Ability Score Improvement: Treat monster Hit Dice the same as character level for determining ability score increases. This only applies to Hit Dice increases, monsters do not gain ability score increases for levels they “already reached” with their racial Hit Dice, since these adjustments are included in their basic ability scores.
TelinArtho 03-06-07, 05:24 PM	Hmm - interesting. Okay, so let me see - does this apply for the animal HD of a lycanthrope? If so, that's going to affect Jar-red. I think that's all for my own characters - I'll have to see about the non-standard races we've got active around here to check on others... I expect this will cause more than a few violations to be handed out though.
MindWandererB 03-06-07, 05:26 PM	Hmm - interesting. Okay, so let me see - does this apply for the animal HD of a lycanthrope? If so, that's going to affect Jar-red. I think that's all for my own characters - I'll have to see about the non-standard races we've got active around here to check on others... I expect this will cause more than a few violations to be handed out though. Yep, Jar-Red is in error. Deinonychi already have 4 HD, so he doesn't get a 4 HD bonus. If he were based on a 3-HD animal, he'd get it.
Macbrea 03-06-07, 05:28 PM	Yeah, it will effect Lord Frost. He is a 6HD dragon and 1 hd of pyromancer. I will correct. He kind of gets messed up by taking his racial HD. :P Started as a 3HD dragon and raised to a 6HD dragon with experience.
Eluria 03-06-07, 05:29 PM	Out of random curiousity, is it normal for debates, quests, and FotW arguments to get so heated and borderline personal? I think everyone here has been really nice and welcoming to me, but it's sort of surprising to see how vitriolic some of the debate gets. I hope you guys do take a time out at some point and realize you're all part of a very nice, select, small, gaming community, and share a common interest... and excel at it. Regardless of whether you agree a centaur PC can be spurred or you can tell the difference between an arrow hitting the dirt or armor or a spell, etc. I think it's amusing that when I started here a few weeks ago I was all set to start pitlording, then I realized my rules knowledge was entirely dwarfed by even the least experienced CoCo-er... I still forget to include basic things like ride-for-cover or fall prone or whatever in my tactics, and some of you are able to calculate the rarest and most obscure bonuses -- it's very impressive, but I'm sure arguments and mistakes and disagreements happen all the time... I guess, it's not really my place to say "calm down, take it easy" because a) I know when you're so good at something, and strive to be the best/better, one is obviously very driven and can get worked up easily, and b) I'm still a noob... but I hope at some point you guys hug and make up. Also I hope Mohmat levels quickly and can be in an ECL12 two-man team firing crystal shards vs. Harvester at ECL14, and by then I'll understand blacklight and air elementals and the like.
TelinArtho 03-06-07, 05:29 PM	Actually looking through the active roster, there's only a handful who are in violation: Jar-red, Balrog, Lord Frost and Saffron Brass. I'll post those violations currently.
Horatius 03-06-07, 05:30 PM	Just checking: If I want to upgrade my armor (from +0 to +1) all I have to do is 'buy' the +1 from 1000gp, correct? Thanks
Macbrea 03-06-07, 05:32 PM	No point posting Lord Frost it is corrected.
TelinArtho 03-06-07, 05:32 PM	Just checking: If I want to upgrade my armor (from +0 to +1) all I have to do is 'buy' the +1 from 1000gp, correct? Thanks Correct.
Zevox 03-06-07, 05:33 PM	Yeah, it will effect Lord Frost. He is a 6HD dragon and 1 hd of pyromancer. I will correct. He kind of gets messed up by taking his racial HD. :P Started as a 3HD dragon and raised to a 6HD dragon with experience. If he started as a 3HD Dragon, hes fine. He didn't start with 4 HD, so the stat boost from that level wasn't already taken into account in the racial stats, meaning you do get it. Zevox
Macbrea 03-06-07, 05:35 PM	No.. they are racial HD. They do count as non-levels for purposes of abilities.
Zevox 03-06-07, 05:37 PM	No.. they are racial HD. They do count as non-levels for purposes of abilities. Um, where do you get that? Everything gets ability boosts at every 4 HD (just look at any of our advanced allies, including even psicrystals). The above posts are just for creatures that already have 4+ HD - their MM/SRD stats already take that bonus into account, so they don't get another. Heck, MWB even said as much to Telin a moment ago: Yep, Jar-Red is in error. Deinonychi already have 4 HD, so he doesn't get a 4 HD bonus. If he were based on a 3-HD animal, he'd get it. Zevox
MindWandererB 03-06-07, 05:38 PM	Out of random curiousity, is it normal for debates, quests, and FotW arguments to get so heated and borderline personal? I think everyone here has been really nice and welcoming to me, but it's sort of surprising to see how vitriolic some of the debate gets. I hope you guys do take a time out at some point and realize you're all part of a very nice, select, small, gaming community, and share a common interest... and excel at it. Regardless of whether you agree a centaur PC can be spurred or you can tell the difference between an arrow hitting the dirt or armor or a spell, etc. I think it's amusing that when I started here a few weeks ago I was all set to start pitlording, then I realized my rules knowledge was entirely dwarfed by even the least experienced CoCo-er... I still forget to include basic things like ride-for-cover or fall prone or whatever in my tactics, and some of you are able to calculate the rarest and most obscure bonuses -- it's very impressive, but I'm sure arguments and mistakes and disagreements happen all the time... I guess, it's not really my place to say "calm down, take it easy" because a) I know when you're so good at something, and strive to be the best/better, one is obviously very driven and can get worked up easily, and b) I'm still a noob... but I hope at some point you guys hug and make up. Also I hope Mohmat levels quickly and can be in an ECL12 two-man team firing crystal shards vs. Harvester at ECL14, and by then I'll understand blacklight and air elementals and the like. Heh... don't worry for us, Eluria. This happens. We've had a few fallings-out in the past--Mitza and Tellish certainly have stories to tell, but most of the others have left. It can be hard to not take things personally sometimes. I remember when Macbrea's Mektos blew away my Aerryl's entire Brooch of Shielding in one go, when my tactics asked to stay out of range entirely. I was not happy. Although on the other hand, there are some of us (coughMitzacough) who don't seem like they're having fun unless they get into passionate arguments. But typically, when it starts getting personal, we know when to back down... or else someone quits.
MindWandererB 03-06-07, 05:39 PM	Um, where do you get that? Everything gets ability boosts at every 4 HD (just look at any of our advanced allies, including even psicrystals). The above posts are just for creatures that already have 4+ HD - their MM/SRD stats already take that bonus into account, so they don't get another. Heck, MWB even said as much to Telin a moment ago: Zevox Everything except dragons. Frost increased by age category, so he "earned" himself a different set of ability modifiers. That +1 was already counted into the Very Young White Dragon's modifiers. Don't think of him as an advanced wyrmling, think of him as an out-of-the-box Very Young.
Zevox 03-06-07, 05:41 PM	Everything except dragons. Frost increased by age category, so he "earned" himself a different set of ability modifiers. That +1 was already counted into the Very Young White Dragon's modifiers. Don't think of him as an advanced wyrmling, think of him as an out-of-the-box Very Young. Ah, good point. I forgot he advanced an age category. Zevox
Macbrea 03-06-07, 05:42 PM	Ah reread it!
Macbrea 03-06-07, 05:47 PM	Pout.... Lord Frost will get you all!
MindWandererB 03-06-07, 05:47 PM	Ah, good point. I forgot he advanced an age category. Zevox Although here's an oddity: A 4-HD advanced white dragon wyrmling gets the +1... but when it reaches 6 HD and advances an age category, it loses it. It gets it back (to a different ability, if desired) at 8 HD, loses it again at 9, and then regains it at 16 (which is at post-epic ECL).
Macbrea 03-06-07, 05:50 PM	Well, in theory the change from Wyrmling to Very Young had the following effects. +2 Str and Size change from Tiny to Small. The +2 str was a result of forces placement of my stat increases in Strength. So, I really get my stat increase some HD early. :(
Macbrea 03-06-07, 05:53 PM	In truth, you don't go for white dragon for the power of it. It is purely a flavor race. Very Young Dragon Str +2, Con +2, Int -4, Cha -4
False_Keraptis 03-06-07, 05:56 PM	No.. they are racial HD. They do count as non-levels for purposes of abilities. Hmm... The dragon is a weird case, though. As it gains hd, it changes age categories and its stat modifiers change. How does that work? To me, dragons look like a special case that generally wouldn't get stat advancement, or perhaps get it, but only between age categories, then have to give it back when they advance one. For example, a young adult red dragon with 19 hd has racial bonuses of +20 Str, +10 Con, +4 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Chr. If he gains another hit die, he gets a stat point. But then, suppose he gains two more hd, upping him to 22 hd and adult age status. Now his racial bonuses are +22 Str, +10 Con, +6 Int, +8 Wis, +6 Chr. Does this subsume the stat point he gained at 20? I would say that it does. But what if he put the point in Con, which does not increase? Should a dragon that grew organically to an age category have better stats than one created at that category? It's a mess; I think the best thing to do would be to declare that true dragons just don't get stat points for racial hd. Edit: Aw, peanuts! Beaten to the punch. Also, MWB's solution is better and more elegant than mine.
MindWandererB 03-06-07, 07:28 PM	In truth, you don't go for white dragon for the power of it. It is purely a flavor race. Very Young Dragon Str +2, Con +2, Int -4, Cha -4 Oh, that's so not true. Zero may have been crippled by the no-weapons decision, but he could still be viable if I wanted to bring him back. A magic-domain cleric, for instance, to allow him to use arcane wands. Or a psychic warrior with Expanded Knowledge for Crystal Shard. It would take credits for an alignment change, but he might even make a decent druid.
hogarth 03-06-07, 07:29 PM	Oh, that's so not true. Zero may have been crippled by the no-weapons decision, but he could still be viable if I wanted to bring him back. A magic-domain cleric, for instance, to allow him to use arcane wands. Or a psychic warrior with Expanded Knowledge for Crystal Shard. It would take credits for an alignment change, but he might even make a decent druid. Can't dragons use arcane wands anyways, since the spells are on their "class list"?
MindWandererB 03-06-07, 07:41 PM	Can't dragons use arcane wands anyways, since the spells are on their "class list"? <slap> yeah, I knew that. I did it with Zero, even. I was just trying to think of options that allowed a ranged attack without a weapon, and with crummy Int and Cha. Too bad there's nothing like Crystal Shard on the sorc/wiz list.
Zevox 03-06-07, 07:56 PM	<slap> yeah, I knew that. I did it with Zero, even. I was just trying to think of options that allowed a ranged attack without a weapon, and with crummy Int and Cha. Too bad there's nothing like Crystal Shard on the sorc/wiz list. What, magic missiles not good enough for you? ;) Zevox
MindWandererB 03-06-07, 08:06 PM	What, magic missiles not good enough for you? ;) Zevox Magic Missile: 15 gp for 1d4+1 damage, +30 gp/additional 1d4+1. Negated by SR or Shield. Crystal Shard: With Psionic Shot, 15 gp for 3d6 damage, +15 gp/additional 1d6. Half the range and can miss, but immunity is impossible. Now, Magic Missile isn't bad... but it can get pricey against warriors, Vigor, or the dreaded CLW wand. Of course, both were nerfed by the DC 0 Listen check thing. Reduces the concept to run-n-gun rather than including the stealth option. The longer-range options might be better. Eh, it doesn't matter, I won't be bringing him back. Although I do have a pixie concept I've been debating for a long time... I probably won't introduce any new characters until I hit the new frozen leagues again. I have six active characters right now, and am about to introduce a seventh, which is three or four more than I really want.
SauroGrenom 03-06-07, 08:22 PM	I think you're overlooking the way that pricing scales with augmented psionic powers in dorjes. There is an increase in power level with respect to price for every +2 ML above the minimum needed to manifest the power. Also there is a cap of ML+5. So a ML5 dorje of crystal shard will cost you the same as a wand of fireballs. Also crystal shard has a far more limited range than MM, and that can cause problems for some characters (although not for a dragon).
TheMagister 03-06-07, 08:24 PM	I might be wrong, but I think that our house rule of an increase in power level for every +2 ML above the minimum needed to manifest the power is solely for powerstones and tattoos (i.e. - expendables). A dorje/wand isn't classified as an expendable. I'm gonna go look now. Universal House Rules Augmented Powerstones/Tattoos: For every two manifester levels above the minimum, the power level increases by one. This directly affects the pricing of such items. It only applies to augmented stones and tattoos. Unaugmented ones use the normal formula. Example (augmented): VigorA [ML 5] = 25*5*3 = 375 gp [+25 hp] Example (unaugmented): Vigor [ML 5] = 25*5*1 = 125 gp [+5 hp] Yep. No mention of wands or dorjes in there. Which is a good thing considering Rubicanti shelled out some serious gp for an augmented dorje of Offensive Precognition [ML4A] and only paid for a power level of 1 and a manifester level of 4. Doubling the price would put that well out of range.
SauroGrenom 03-06-07, 08:27 PM	I might be wrong, but I think that our house rule of an increase in power level for every +2 ML above the minimum needed to manifest the power is solely for powerstones and tattoos (i.e. - expendables). A dorje/wand isn't classified as an expendable. I'm gonna go look now.It's not a house rule for dorjes. That rule is in the SRD for dorjes, and we applied it to powerstones and tattoos using the rule for dorjes as a basis.
hogarth 03-06-07, 08:28 PM	It's not a house rule for dorjes. That rule is in the SRD for dorjes, and we applied it to powerstones and tattoos using the rule for dorjes as a basis. Yup -- see here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/creatingPsionicItems.htm#creatingDorjes "If you wanted to make a dorje of energy missile with a manifester level of 8th (five higher than the minimum), you would pay for the creation of the dorje as if energy missile was a 5th-level power." Oh...in fact that implies that you have to round up, not down for the power's effective level! So much for my ML2 power stones of Vigor costing 50 gp each!
TheMagister 03-06-07, 08:32 PM	It's not a house rule for dorjes. That rule is in the SRD for dorjes, and we applied it to powerstones and tattoos using the rule for dorjes as a basis. Uh oh.
TheMagister 03-06-07, 08:35 PM	Yup -- see here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/creatingPsionicItems.htm#creatingDorjes "If you wanted to make a dorje of energy missile with a manifester level of 8th (five higher than the minimum), you would pay for the creation of the dorje as if energy missile was a 5th-level power." Oh...in fact that implies that you have to round up, not down for the power's effective level! So much for my ML2 power stones of Vigor costing 50 gp each! Funny. Mine says "if you wanted to make a dorje of energy missile with a manifester level of eleventh (eight higher than the minimum), you would pay for the creation of the dorje as if evergy missile was a 6th level power." Wierd. (I can't look at d20.com, my firewall kills it).
TheMagister 03-06-07, 08:38 PM	Dorje of HammerA [ML 3] [49 charges] [.25 lbs][2250 gp] Dorje of Offensive PrecognitionA [ML 4] [46 charges] [.25 lbs][3000 gp] Crud. I only paid half price for these...didn't I... TM
Zevox 03-06-07, 08:46 PM	Funny. Mine says "if you wanted to make a dorje of energy missile with a manifester level of eleventh (eight higher than the minimum), you would pay for the creation of the dorje as if evergy missile was a 6th level power." Wierd. (I can't look at d20.com, my firewall kills it). Hm. The Sovelior_Sage SRD is lacking the example entirely too. Same with the wizard's site one. How very odd... Zevox
Zevox 03-06-07, 08:49 PM	Ah, there we go. The XPH has TM's example. I'm guessing then that the one in d20srd.org was either poor memory or a series of typos on the part of whoever put it up. Zevox
hogarth 03-06-07, 08:50 PM	Funny. Mine says "if you wanted to make a dorje of energy missile with a manifester level of eleventh (eight higher than the minimum), you would pay for the creation of the dorje as if evergy missile was a 6th level power." Wierd. (I can't look at d20.com, my firewall kills it). It was changed in the errata for the Expanded Psionics Handbook. Page 181: Creating Dorjes The example at the end of the second paragraph is incorrect and should read as follows: . . . If you wanted to make a dorje of energy missile with a manifester level of 8th (five higher than the minimum), you would pay for the creation of the dorje as if energy missile was a 5th-level power.
TheMagister 03-06-07, 09:00 PM	You guys tell me what you think this means (I'm confused by the inclusion of the word "Alternatively" at the beginning of the second sentence): If an augmentable power is incorporated into a dorje at a higher manifester level than the minimum level required to manifest the power, each discharge of the power from the dorje is augmented to the limit of that higher manifester level. Alternatively, if you want to have a higher manifester level in the dorje, you must pay for the dorje as if the power was one level higher for each additional two manifester levels you want. For example, energy missile is a 2nd level power with a minimum manifester level of 3rd. If you wanted to make a dorje of energy missile with a manifester level of 11th (eight higher than the minimum), you would pay for the creation of the dorje as if energy missile was a 6th level power. Man, that doesn't make sense! We're given an either/or situation here. Either: a creator crafts a dorje with an augmentable power at ML "x". Every time the power is discharged from that dorje, it is augmented to ML "x" automatically. OR: a creator crafts a dorje with an unaugmented 2nd level power at ML 11. When he does so, he has to pay for the dorje as if the 2nd level power was a 6th level power. WHY? Maybe because the unaugmented energy missile does less damage, but has greater range and SR/PR/globe of invulnerability-penetrating capability. The augmented energy missile is still a 2nd level power, but if it's augmented to ML 11, what's the darned difference besides pp expenditure? Would an augmented energy missile [ML11] NOT penetrate a globe of invulnerability, but an UNaugmented energy missile from a dorje WOULD? It's a helluva paradox.
hogarth 03-06-07, 09:04 PM	I think the word "Alternatively" is just a typo.
TheMagister 03-06-07, 09:11 PM	So it's been errata'd then?
Rauul 03-06-07, 09:14 PM	And you wonder why I am fighting get non standard wands removed from costing credits... when an augmented Dijore dosn't cost credits... Sheesh.. But if I wanted to purchase a wand of Extended Spectral hand CL 3 would cost the same gold and 5 credits.. And potions are about the same thing as tattoos (except tattoos have a limit of 6 and potions are personnel effects only) yet non standard potions cost credits and Tattoos don't.. I tell you I am Not totally insane.. Really i am not.. 6 of 10 shrinks say so...
Zevox 03-06-07, 09:17 PM	And potions are about the same thing as tattoos (except tattoos have a limit of 6 and potions are personnel effects only) yet non standard potions cost credits and Tattoos don't.. Actually, potions can't be made of personal-range spells at all. Its right in the rules about making them. Potions are pretty much uniformly normally touch range or short-range spells. Zevox
MindWandererB 03-06-07, 09:20 PM	I think you're overlooking the way that pricing scales with augmented psionic powers in dorjes. There is an increase in power level with respect to price for every +2 ML above the minimum needed to manifest the power. Also there is a cap of ML+5. So a ML5 dorje of crystal shard will cost you the same as a wand of fireballs. Also crystal shard has a far more limited range than MM, and that can cause problems for some characters (although not for a dragon). Yes. Clearly, everything I say today should be taken with a grain of salt.
TheMagister 03-06-07, 09:29 PM	Okay, I need some advice. I really want to avoid any appearance of perfidy here, but it's looking like I spent WAY too little gold (half as much as I needed to spend) on his two dorjes that are a HUGE part of his offense. At the time I bought them, I had just enough saved up to buy them at half price. It was an honest mistake. I have enough cash NOW to make up the unpaid cost. All I can think of to do would be to just pay it, but I feel really bad about having been illegal for like, TWO MONTHS. So, do I just adjust the pricing and pay the extra? I have to pay it somehow, and we can't go back and adjust his fights. TM
Sutro 03-06-07, 09:36 PM	I vote we string your character up over the arena of Gladius and let the ravens pick out your eyes of your corpse, making up the gold by it all falling out of your breeches as they rot off your body. LOL. We all share responsibility in policing each other, intentional or not. My vote is just make your sheet legal. -Sutro
NiQil 03-06-07, 09:38 PM	Okay, I need some advice. I really want to avoid any appearance of perfidy here, but it's looking like I spent WAY too little gold (half as much as I needed to spend) on his two dorjes that are a HUGE part of his offense. At the time I bought them, I had just enough saved up to buy them at half price. It was an honest mistake. I have enough cash NOW to make up the unpaid cost. All I can think of to do would be to just pay it, but I feel really bad about having been illegal for like, TWO MONTHS. So, do I just adjust the pricing and pay the extra? I have to pay it somehow, and we can't go back and adjust his fights. TM Maybe we should leave it up to the people you beat with those items :P
MindWandererB 03-06-07, 09:39 PM	Okay, I need some advice. I really want to avoid any appearance of perfidy here, but it's looking like I spent WAY too little gold (half as much as I needed to spend) on his two dorjes that are a HUGE part of his offense. At the time I bought them, I had just enough saved up to buy them at half price. It was an honest mistake. I have enough cash NOW to make up the unpaid cost. All I can think of to do would be to just pay it, but I feel really bad about having been illegal for like, TWO MONTHS. So, do I just adjust the pricing and pay the extra? I have to pay it somehow, and we can't go back and adjust his fights. TM There's nothing for it after the fact. All you can do is make them legal now, including the spent charges.
TheMagister 03-06-07, 09:43 PM	Right then. All done, and Rubicanti can now qualify for an evil-type prestige class, because he stole stuff and killed people with it. :) And evidently he's good at it, because he got away with it. TM
Macbrea 03-06-07, 10:00 PM	Ok, well, did anyone see anything drastically wrong with Razorfang?
NiQil 03-06-07, 10:01 PM	Ok, well, did anyone see anything drastically wrong with Razorfang? You mean besides the fact that you created him? :P
Macbrea 03-06-07, 10:05 PM	:::pphtttt::: Path is Worg 4hd/Monk 3/Psionic fist 2 Leadership ally for goblin rider, I think. Unless I can snag one of the goblins in the arena for a partner...
MindWandererB 03-06-07, 10:12 PM	Ok, well, did anyone see anything drastically wrong with Razorfang? Um, you remember Lortavos the Krenshar, right? He retired because he couldn't deal with fliers or speedy folks at all. Bear that in mind.
Macbrea 03-06-07, 10:17 PM	Um, you remember Lortavos the Krenshar, right? He retired because he couldn't deal with fliers or speedy folks at all. Bear that in mind. Well, if speedy folks are planning on moving more then 130ft per turn. Then they are going to get away and I will have to hide. Flyers, I will figure out something about. Probably rider is going to have to deal with them. Nothing much a ground based character can do.
Rauul 03-06-07, 10:23 PM	Well, if speedy folks are planning on moving more then 130ft per turn. Then they are going to get away and I will have to hide. Flyers, I will figure out something about. Probably rider is going to have to deal with them. Nothing much a ground based character can do. Modified Boots... Doggie boots of flying... (winged boots), potions.. a goblin Wiz/sor ect.. with a wand of fly as a mount.. ect.. :) Can i pet the doggie.. saids the necromancer... :)
TaggIIV 03-06-07, 10:27 PM	Question: Am I allowed to change unused prepared spells between fights in the same 3-FC, as long as I keep the ones that have been used?
Macbrea 03-06-07, 10:28 PM	Nope, those memorized are considered memorized for the day. If you have empty slots you may spend the time to fill them.
Macbrea 03-06-07, 10:56 PM	Hey, NiQil your running out of opponents in the ECL 3 league!
NiQil 03-06-07, 10:58 PM	Hey, NiQil your running out of opponents in the ECL 3 league! Meh...I just don't see the point in making characters at higher levels and spending the credits when it is just as easy to start them low and build them there...especially for someone like me who doesn't stay attached to an idea for very long if I'm not having success with it.
SauroGrenom 03-06-07, 11:23 PM	Ok, well, did anyone see anything drastically wrong with Razorfang? Aren't Worg (or whatever the plural is) always neutral evil? I'm not sure what the protocol is on alignments if the creature has a listed one. Looks good by the rules. Melee builds have trouble in mid levels. Also dealing with DR silver (all those lycanthropes) can be a problem. Lastly movement is the major limitation of any melee build. You'll need some way to move fast and eventually fly to ensure your ability to close into melee. Then there's the whole issue of detecting sneaky types.
Macbrea 03-06-07, 11:29 PM	Alignment: Usually neutral evil DR silver will need silversheen by 6th. Will remember to pick up some. My 65ft movement (75ft at 7th) should cover needs to move fast part. Scent + Spot 10 might help against sneaky types. Flyers are going to be a problem, Will have to work on that one. Though, I will need a clarification once I get a leadership ally. If a mount is grappling can the rider cast spells into the melee?
Zevox 03-06-07, 11:31 PM	Aren't Worg (or whatever the plural is) always neutral evil? I'm not sure what the protocol is on alignments if the creature has a listed one. Worgs are listed as only "usually NE". You're not restricted in what alignments you can have unless the entry says "always", so hes good. Zevox
MindWandererB 03-07-07, 12:39 AM	Alignment: Usually neutral evil DR silver will need silversheen by 6th. Will remember to pick up some. My 65ft movement (75ft at 7th) should cover needs to move fast part. Scent + Spot 10 might help against sneaky types. Flyers are going to be a problem, Will have to work on that one. Though, I will need a clarification once I get a leadership ally. If a mount is grappling can the rider cast spells into the melee? What are you going to use the Silversheen on? It doesn't work on natural weapons. In other news: Q: Dear Sage, Can a magic staff hold only one spell? --Nelson A: Yes. Even though all the staffs presented in the Dungeon Master’s Guide contain multiple spells, the rules don’t expressly ban you from crafting a staff with only one spell (and what’s more, it’s not significantly unbalancing to do so).I mention this because I ruled differently in the past. If Cat sees this, he's entitled to a revision on his blacklight staff.
TheMagister 03-07-07, 12:59 AM	What are you going to use the Silversheen on? It doesn't work on natural weapons. Path is Worg 4hd/Monk 3/Psionic fist 2 There ya go.
MindWandererB 03-07-07, 01:02 AM	Right. Brain still not functioning. I'm going to shut up now.
TheMagister 03-07-07, 01:15 AM	Okay, I had an epiphany of sorts while I was out driving, and I need someone to stop me before I break something. Note: If this all turns out legal, I have dibs on this concept. I've pitlorded for Maraxus' Balrog a couple times, and I've often thought: "where's he going with this?" That naturally led me down an optimizer's pipe-dream path, and this is what I've come up with. Male Centaur Psywar 4 (ECL10) Various Stats, but probably 24 Str and 18 Wis before items. Feats: 1HD: Ride-by Attack [General] 3HD: Spirited Charge [General] Psywar1: Psionic Weapon [Psionic] Psywar2: Deep Impact [Psionic] 6HD: Power Attack Equipment would include: Boots of Flying (pay credits to get the non-humanoid equivalent), Armor of the Rhino (ala Sir Valkin) Powers: the only important one comes at Psywar 4, which would be Psionic Lion's Charge. Everything else is icing (expansion, empty mind, etc.). The Lance would do x4 damage, the hooves and off-hand x2. Cohort: Level 8 Cleric of War/Strength built to Spirited Charge. Something with low HP and big strength, and decent intelligence (need a good ride skill). So the idea is to get two charges for the price of one. I'm smellin' cheese, but there's nothing that I can think of that'd be stopping the build from working like I think it would. I was thinking about this as well. If you spirited charge a target, and elect to Improved Trip that target, would your followup attack on a successful trip attempt gain the benefits of spirited charge? TM
Tellish_of_Ket 03-07-07, 01:26 AM	Okay, I had an epiphany of sorts while I was out driving, and I need someone to stop me before I break something. Note: If this all turns out legal, I have dibs on this concept. I've pitlorded for Maraxus' Balrog a couple times, and I've often thought: "where's he going with this?" That naturally led me down an optimizer's pipe-dream path, and this is what I've come up with. Male Centaur Psywar 4 (ECL10) Various Stats, but probably 24 Str and 18 Wis before items. Feats: 1HD: Ride-by Attack [General] 3HD: Spirited Charge [General] Psywar1: Psionic Weapon [Psionic] Psywar2: Deep Impact [Psionic] 6HD: Power Attack Equipment would include: Boots of Flying (pay credits to get the non-humanoid equivalent), Armor of the Rhino (ala Sir Valkin) Powers: the only important one comes at Psywar 4, which would be Psionic Lion's Charge. Everything else is icing (expansion, empty mind, etc.). The Lance would do x4 damage, the hooves and off-hand x2. Cohort: Level 8 Cleric of War/Strength built to Spirited Charge. Something with low HP and big strength, and decent intelligence (need a good ride skill). So the idea is to get two charges for the price of one. I'm smellin' cheese, but there's nothing that I can think of that'd be stopping the build from working like I think it would. I was thinking about this as well. If you spirited charge a target, and elect to Improved Trip that target, would your followup attack on a successful trip attempt gain the benefits of spirited charge? TM I fully, whole-heartedly approve of your gouda-build. Only two teency problem. Your centaur will not be able to use it's hooves on a charge as well, since Lance is a reach weapon, and you attack in the first possible square to do so. Problem number two, is your cleric will need to be half-giant using a large lance, otherwise, his reach won't be enough. ToK
sonofzeal 03-07-07, 01:32 AM	I fully, whole-heartedly approve of your gouda-build. Only two teency problem. Your centaur will not be able to use it's hooves on a charge as well, since Lance is a reach weapon, and you attack in the first possible square to do so. Problem number two, is your cleric will need to be half-giant using a large lance, otherwise, his reach won't be enough. ToK Rather than a lance, why not go with a Greatsword? You don't get the x3 charge damage, but you do 3d6 instead of 2d6 with a better crit range and solve the problem with your rider's reach, and the hooves too.
NiQil 03-07-07, 01:34 AM	Question... Are javelins able to be made from cold iron and/or alchemical silver the way arrows can be made from those materials?
Tellish_of_Ket 03-07-07, 01:40 AM	Rather than a lance, why not go with a Greatsword? You don't get the x3 charge damage, but you do 3d6 instead of 2d6 with a better crit range and solve the problem with your rider's reach, and the hooves too. Maybe, but i just realized what TM is forgetting. Feats: 1HD: Ride-by Attack [General] 3HD: Spirited Charge [General] Psywar1: Psionic Weapon [Psionic] Psywar2: Deep Impact [Psionic] 6HD: Power Attack Where is the all important MOUNTED COMBAT in all this? Unless by saying because you are a mount yourself you don't need to fullfull the pre-req? Uhm...that's stretching it. I would say no...but that's just me. You still need to fullfill the pre-req. ToK
TheMagister 03-07-07, 01:41 AM	I fully, whole-heartedly approve of your gouda-build. Only two teency problem. Your centaur will not be able to use it's hooves on a charge as well, since Lance is a reach weapon, and you attack in the first possible square to do so. Problem number two, is your cleric will need to be half-giant using a large lance, otherwise, his reach won't be enough. ToK Well, see, I'm thinking that Ride-by Attack in conjunction with Psionic Lion's Charge solves that problem, as well as the reach problem of my rider. Lemme make a map: http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=arena;a=Me,L,12,27,12,2 9,12,31,8,49,Centaur;b=Ride,M,13,27,13,2 9,13,31,9,49,Rider;c=Targ,M,14,33,Target So help me work through this step-by-step: Position 1 - Start: at least 10 ft. away. Check. Manifest Psionic Lion's Charge as a free action. Charge. Position 2 - target is within 20'; declare power attack -7/+14; expend focus for Deep Impact. Roll to hit. Don't Miss. Deal 2d6+[str*1.5]+[14]x3 dmg. Continue moving via Ride-by Attack. Position 3 - target is 10' away; cohort attacks with lance, declaring Divine Might and Smite (if applicable) and declaring the usage of his Strength domain. Yucky. Position 4 (not shown) - target is 5' away; make attacks with hooves and off-hand (armor spikes) at big penalties (-5 for secondary weapons, -4 for TWF, -7 for power attack, +2 charging. Hope for a 20.) via Psionic Lion's charge in conjunction with Ride-by Attack. Position 5 (shown) - Finish ride-by attack far, far away. Why wouldn't that work? Psionic Lion's charge changes the rules of charge to "when you charge you can make a full attack in the same round." And Ride-by Attack says that you don't have to stop at the nearest square from which you can attack your opponent. It seems pretty much tied up in a sack.
TheMagister 03-07-07, 01:42 AM	Maybe, but i just realized what TM is forgetting. Feats: 1HD: Ride-by Attack [General] 3HD: Spirited Charge [General] Psywar1: Psionic Weapon [Psionic] Psywar2: Deep Impact [Psionic] 6HD: Power Attack Where is the all important MOUNTED COMBAT in all this? Unless by saying because you are a mount yourself you don't need to fullfull the pre-req? Uhm...that's stretching it. I would say no...but that's just me. You still need to fullfill the pre-req. ToK I'm following the accepted example of Maraxus' Balrog, who is a centaur and didn't spend a feat slot on Mounted Combat. If he doesn't have to, I don't have to. TM
TheMagister 03-07-07, 01:43 AM	Question... Are javelins able to be made from cold iron and/or alchemical silver the way arrows can be made from those materials? Well, sure. Why wouldn't they be?
Tellish_of_Ket 03-07-07, 01:54 AM	I'm following the accepted example of Maraxus' Balrog, who is a centaur and didn't spend a feat slot on Mounted Combat. If he doesn't have to, I don't have to. TM It does make sense...i'm just not familiar with mount/pc builds. I'm sure there are rules governing them. So if he knows the rules, and that's how it works, who am i to argue. ToK
Rauul 03-07-07, 02:12 AM	It does make sense...i'm just not familiar with mount/pc builds. I'm sure there are rules governing them. So if he knows the rules, and that's how it works, who am i to argue. ToK the "Mount" don't need Mounted combat feat... the rider IE the Cohort.. would.. and could even ride to negate damage to the mount... Nasty cheese but By the DMG and MM it's fully in the rules of mounted combat.. Granted a Centaur might not like the spurs of his Cohort in his flanks but thats what he gets for having a rider. LOL Edit=>Bah i just wanna Play a PC Imp, Mephit or Quasit Sor, with a Leadership/Diplomacy Cohort of a Human Wizard and ride it's shoulder... Just like all the familars do now... and watch someone tell me i need combat riding!!! Oh and have my own Familar Ride on the other shoulder...A Fiendish Raven :)
Zevox 03-07-07, 08:45 AM	Edit=>Bah i just wanna Play a PC Imp, Mephit or Quasit Sor, with a Leadership/Diplomacy Cohort of a Human Wizard and ride it's shoulder... Just like all the familars do now... and watch someone tell me i need combat riding!!! Oh and have my own Familar Ride on the other shoulder...A Fiendish Raven :) Imps and Quasits aren't playable races, but Mephits you can do. With 3 racial HD and LA+3 they'll be ECL 7 before they take their first Sorcerer level, and you'll be paying at least 15 credits to start one (at ECL 6). I'm sure no one is going to allow this idiotic "riding a humanoid" stuff though, so its a moot point if thats your only reason for it. Zevox
hogarth 03-07-07, 09:19 AM	I'm sure no one is going to allow this idiotic "riding a humanoid" stuff though, so its a moot point if thats your only reason for it. "Hey, who are you calling idiotic?!" / http://server2.uploadit.org/files/cwooff-anim_goah_standinganim.jpg
Macbrea 03-07-07, 09:43 AM	Lets do the logical math of this: Power attack for 7 and Lion's Charge Large Lance +2 damage: 1d10 + 26 (x5 (x6 dive)) ~ 157.5 (189 on dive) Large Greatsword +2 Damage: 3d6 + 26 (x3 (x4 dive)) ~ 109.5 (146 on dive) 2 Hooves Damage: 2d6 + 20 (x3) ~ 81 Totalling 190.5 (227 on dive) The reason for not multiplying Dive damage by x4 on hooves is because it only works with Claws, Talons and Piercing/Slashing weapons.
Hirumajoe 03-07-07, 10:39 AM	Okay, I had an epiphany of sorts while I was out driving, and I need someone to stop me before I break something. Note: If this all turns out legal, I have dibs on this concept. Hate to break it to you, but you're about 1000 posts too late. Here and here and here it was discussed. However, since I'm such a nice guy, I won't charge you royalties. :D
Macbrea 03-07-07, 10:41 AM	It's been discussed a few times. The concept that keeps coming back up every now and then is the Half-Dragon Centaur. But paying for the ability to fly with credits would cover the problem entirely.
TelinArtho 03-07-07, 10:43 AM	It does make sense...i'm just not familiar with mount/pc builds. I'm sure there are rules governing them. So if he knows the rules, and that's how it works, who am i to argue. ToK It was ruled (here - as in with the current elders - myself included) that Centaurs are "centaur-like" (as per the Zelekhut), and thus qualify for the mounted combat chain without the necessary Mounted Combat pre-req. That said, I would not allow a Centaur to use Mounted Combat on himself (though he could take it if he wanted to ride, say, an elephant...).
Hirumajoe 03-07-07, 10:52 AM	Dumb question regarding heavy armor and speed enhancements. If you're base speed is 30' and you're wearing heavy armor, your new speed is 20'. I thought that if you added 30' to your movement, through haste or expeditious retreat, you add it to your base speed and then apply the armor penalty, resulting in a net speed of 40'. Can someone please correct me? The reason I ask is I see the harvester running at a speed of 50' in heavy armor, and I assume thats correct since no one seems to have questioned it in the entire commentary yesterday (not that it really makes all that much difference to the fight.) I'd just like to know for future reference.
TelinArtho 03-07-07, 10:54 AM	You've got it right HirumaJoe - I'd have to check the specifics in question, but armor penalties are the last thing to be applied.
Macbrea 03-07-07, 11:05 AM	It is the worse of your Load or Armor. They are applied differently according to the rules. Example: Izumi is in Mithril full plate. According to the rules that gives her a 20ft move plus 10ft for speed of thought and plus 15ft from skate for a 45ft move. Her encumberance of 75lb is still a light load. Therefor as a half-giant her move for load is 30ft plus 10ft plus 15ft equals 55ft. But because she is in armor she uses her 45ft move. If she was actually encumbered to medium or heavy weight she would have 35ft move. As a result of the decreased move for carrying loads chart.
TelinArtho 03-07-07, 11:16 AM	It is the worse of your Load or Armor. They are applied differently according to the rules. Example: Izumi is in Mithril full plate. According to the rules that gives her a 20ft move plus 10ft for speed of thought and plus 15ft from skate for a 45ft move. Her encumberance of 75lb is still a light load. Therefor as a half-giant her move for load is 30ft plus 10ft plus 15ft equals 55ft. But because she is in armor she uses her 45ft move. If she was actually encumbered to medium or heavy weight she would have 35ft move. As a result of the decreased move for carrying loads chart. Sorry Macbrea - but that's wrong. You total all your speed modifiers before applying reductions according to load or armor. So 30 + 10 + 15 = 55ft Wearing medium armor gives her a 40ft speed. (1/3* 55 = 18, rounded down is 15ft; 55-15 = 40ft speed) And in case you need the quote from the SRD: Bonuses to Speed: A barbarian has a +10 foot bonus to his speed (unless he’s wearing heavy armor). Experienced monks also have higher speed (unless they’re wearing armor of any sort). In addition, many spells and magic items can affect a character’s speed. Always apply any modifiers to a character’s speed before adjusting the character’s speed based on armor or encumbrance, and remember that multiple bonuses of the same type to a character’s speed don’t stack.
Macbrea 03-07-07, 11:27 AM	Can you show me were you are getting the 2/3 rule from the SRD. I can show you were I am getting my information. Speed Medium or heavy armor slows the wearer down. The number on Table: Armor and Shields is the character’s speed while wearing the armor. Humans, elves, half-elves, and half-orcs have an unencumbered speed of 30 feet. They use the first column. Dwarves, gnomes, and halflings have an unencumbered speed of 20 feet. They use the second column. Remember, however, that a dwarf’s land speed remains 20 feet even in medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load. A character’s armor defines his or her maximum Dexterity bonus to AC, armor check penalty, speed, and running speed. Unless your character is weak or carrying a lot of gear, that’s all you need to know. The extra gear your character carries won’t slow him or her down any more than the armor already does. If your character is weak or carrying a lot of gear, however, then you’ll need to calculate encumbrance by weight. Doing so is most important when your character is trying to carry some heavy object. If you want to determine whether your character’s gear is heavy enough to slow him or her down more than the armor already does, total the weight of all the character’s items, including armor, weapons, and gear. Compare this total to the character’s Strength on Table: Carrying Capacity. Depending on how the weight compares to the character’s carrying capacity, he or she may be carrying a light, medium, or heavy load. Like armor, a character’s load affects his or her maximum Dexterity bonus to AC, carries a check penalty (which works like an armor check penalty), reduces the character’s speed, and affects how fast the character can run, as shown on Table: Carrying Loads (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingCapacity.htm#tableCarryingLoads) . A medium or heavy load counts as medium or heavy armor for the purpose of abilities or skills that are restricted by armor. Carrying a light load does not encumber a character. If your character is wearing armor, use the worse figure (from armor or from load) for each category. Do not stack the penalties. Skate is a +15 enhancement to movement. With no statement about encumberance. Speed of thought is very specific about armor - As long as you are psionically focused and not wearing heavy armor, you gain an insight bonus to your speed of 10 feet. Which means it adds 10ft no matter the armor and would be in line with the rules. You will not find any 2/3 rule in existance in 3.5
hogarth 03-07-07, 11:29 AM	Which means it adds 10ft no matter the armor and would be in line with the rules. You will not find any 2/3 rule in existance in 3.5 Well, a 1/3 reduction in speed is implied in the chart "Carrying Loads" under Carrying Capacity. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingCapacity.htm#tableCarryingLoads It's not very specific, though.
TelinArtho 03-07-07, 11:32 AM	See my edit in the post above - you apply all speed modifications before applying a reduction due to encumbrance or armor. As to the 2/3rds, I'm just going from the chart in the SRD. It doesn't have an entry for 55ft. For 50ft, the speed is 35ft; for 60ft, the speed is 40ft. The table itself shows 2/3rds throughout, so I that's what I used to show the calculation. In any case- you certainly do not move faster in medium armor than someone who moves at 60ft in medium armor... Also, just looked over Razorfang. You should include his +12 to jump checks due to his nice speed modifier.
Macbrea 03-07-07, 11:35 AM	Yes, if you read the entire section she is at Light encumberance. And therefore her penalty to encumberance for an unecumbered Half-giant is 30ft + 10ft + 15ft = 55ft. Because her Armor reduces her speed to 20ft plus Speed of thoughts +10 even while in medium armor plus skates +15ft in any armor her movement is 45ft. Because the rules force her to use the slower of the two she must use them. Speed of thought is written specificly to give +10 even while restricted in medium armor.
MindWandererB 03-07-07, 11:48 AM	I fully, whole-heartedly approve of your gouda-build. Only two teency problem. Your centaur will not be able to use it's hooves on a charge as well, since Lance is a reach weapon, and you attack in the first possible square to do so. Problem number two, is your cleric will need to be half-giant using a large lance, otherwise, his reach won't be enough. ToK Just as a reminder, half-giants don't have any more reach than any other Medium creature, so that doesn't help. On the other hand, Centaurs don't have reach, either, so their lances will hit at the same time.
TelinArtho 03-07-07, 12:03 PM	Yes, if you read the entire section she is at Light encumberance. And therefore her penalty to encumberance for an unecumbered Half-giant is 30ft + 10ft + 15ft = 55ft. Because her Armor reduces her speed to 20ft plus Speed of thoughts +10 even while in medium armor plus skates +15ft in any armor her movement is 45ft. Because the rules force her to use the slower of the two she must use them. Speed of thought is written specificly to give +10 even while restricted in medium armor. Benefit: As long as you are psionically focused and not wearing heavy armor, you gain an insight bonus to your speed of 10 feet. So as long as you are not wearing heavy armor and are psionically focused you gain an insight bonus. Bonuses to Speed: A barbarian has a +10 foot bonus to his speed (unless he’s wearing heavy armor). Experienced monks also have higher speed (unless they’re wearing armor of any sort). In addition, many spells and magic items can affect a character’s speed. Always apply any modifiers to a character’s speed before adjusting the character’s speed based on armor or encumbrance, and remember that multiple bonuses of the same type to a character’s speed don’t stack. Apply all speed modifiers to a character's speed before adjusting the speed based on armor or encumbrance. Therefore: 30 + 10 (speed of thought) + 15 (skate) = 55ft Then apply penalty for armor = 40ft.
sonofzeal 03-07-07, 12:07 PM	Just as a reminder, half-giants don't have any more reach than any other Medium creature, so that doesn't help. On the other hand, Centaurs don't have reach, either, so their lances will hit at the same time. You still need to bring that back to a 5' reach to get the hooves in though.
Zevox 03-07-07, 12:12 PM	Dumb question regarding heavy armor and speed enhancements. If you're base speed is 30' and you're wearing heavy armor, your new speed is 20'. I thought that if you added 30' to your movement, through haste or expeditious retreat, you add it to your base speed and then apply the armor penalty, resulting in a net speed of 40'. Can someone please correct me? The reason I ask is I see the harvester running at a speed of 50' in heavy armor, and I assume thats correct since no one seems to have questioned it in the entire commentary yesterday (not that it really makes all that much difference to the fight.) I'd just like to know for future reference. No, you're quite correct. You apply bonuses first, then armor penalties. So Harvey should move at 40' with Exp Retreat, not 50'. Zevox
Papapeperoni 03-07-07, 12:20 PM	Decided to make him a Xeph, so here is the new and improved version of Agtarn Listay :D Someone please check for errors :) Greetings, -Papapeperoni
TaggIIV 03-07-07, 12:39 PM	Am I allowed to craft a magic item as free actions over several weeks? And is the 1000 gp/free action limit based on the market price or price you are paying? (the item in question is 4000gp on market, so could I just mark it on my sheet that I am working on it and in 4 weeks have it made, without using a full action?) And for full actions used for crafting, how do these affect the 3-fight cycle?
TelinArtho 03-07-07, 12:43 PM	Full activities have to be done outside of the 3FC. Crafting costs are based on the market price. Crafting an item over the course of the 3FC should be noted as your free activity, like so: Ready [Date]; Fight 1/3; Crafting Pearl of Power (2nd) (1000/4000gp) I'm frankly not sure you can craft it partially during the 3FC - but that's how you would note it. You could double check with Cat though.
McJarvis 03-07-07, 12:45 PM	It should be noted that if you have any useful free activities at all, you should do them in leu of crafting. Since for just 1 week out you can effectively do 7 weeks of free-activity crafting, it[free activity crafting] is something only to be had for the extremely impatient. *part of post deleted for fear of nerfing of a game mechanic I love*
TelinArtho 03-07-07, 12:50 PM	I wouldn't worry about it McJarvis. Nerfing that is not high on anyone's list quite frankly. And then there's the fact that not everyone has a huge number of choices when it comes to free activities...
MitzaVolchenko 03-07-07, 01:03 PM	Dumb question regarding heavy armor and speed enhancements. If you're base speed is 30' and you're wearing heavy armor, your new speed is 20'. I thought that if you added 30' to your movement, through haste or expeditious retreat, you add it to your base speed and then apply the armor penalty, resulting in a net speed of 40'. Can someone please correct me? The reason I ask is I see the harvester running at a speed of 50' in heavy armor, and I assume thats correct since no one seems to have questioned it in the entire commentary yesterday (not that it really makes all that much difference to the fight.) I'd just like to know for future reference. Heh...missed that booboo as well or I would have included it in my fight errors summary. I'd do so now, but really, all it will do is further annoy Sauro, not get re-run, and if it was, end in th same loss that has happened twice :) I will note that for future reference, though.
MindWandererB 03-07-07, 01:06 PM	I am not removing something that a pitlord did not note as lost. I assume that she managed full recovery unless the pilord notes them as lost. In that case the arrows were counted. Incidentally, even in fights where I roll it in the roller, I usually do arrow recovery on my desk as it is easier to read dice than pick through mass rolls on the roller.Easy way to do it on the roller: X2d-X, where X is the number of missed arrows. The result is the number of recovered arrows.
McJarvis 03-07-07, 01:12 PM	I wouldn't worry about it McJarvis. Nerfing that is not high on anyone's list quite frankly. I dunno. We went out of our way to nerf Matter Agitation: and I'm pretty sure no one was even abusing it at the time. O_O
TelinArtho 03-07-07, 01:14 PM	Easy way to do it on the roller: X2d-X, where X is the number of missed arrows. The result is the number of recovered arrows. And more to the point, I have edited the fight to include the arrows recovered that were missing - its not 23 as ToK had mentioned, but Mitza should edit this in.
Hirumajoe 03-07-07, 01:40 PM	@MWB in regards to Fontag the Fabulous: I'm curious about what you are planning on using TWF with? You can't use it with a Greatsword or a Heavy Flail, can you?
TelinArtho 03-07-07, 01:45 PM	Yes he can as long as the other weapon is his armor spikes...
MindWandererB 03-07-07, 02:44 PM	That's the plan. Greatsword + armor spikes TWF, sneak attack and Divine Might. If I can actually hit anything, it's going to hurt.
MitzaVolchenko 03-07-07, 03:44 PM	And more to the point, I have edited the fight to include the arrows recovered that were missing - its not 23 as ToK had mentioned, but Mitza should edit this in. Ahh, of course I assumed when I checked the link andhte number was there that I had already done it in fight summary. Send me a PM when you edit things like that or my account will never be right. Do me a favor, Telin and update the quest log week one to reflect that many fewer arrows as if they were destroyed this time and not that time since I am going to be attempting to recover what? 60 odd arows. It seems likely that there will be enough wiggle room to work with there. I certainly don't mind paying for a few more arrows, though weeks after the fact it makes things slippery. Then when I update again after the quest concludes, I should be right on the nose.
TelinArtho 03-07-07, 03:50 PM	The questlog is updated with the accurate amount of arrows used up. As to the fight - I updated it on request due to the Audit, so I assumed it was part and parcel (normally I do notify about such changes).
MindWandererB 03-07-07, 04:27 PM	So, I was updating Besthirah for the Iron Man, and I was trying to figure out what to buy for her. I ended up with ten grand that I'm not quite sure what to do with. Eek. There are a lot of item slots she doesn't get if I want her to be able to switch freely between bat and humanoid forms, so she doesn't have infinite options. I can always just save up for improvements to stuff she already has (amulet of mighty fists, bow enhancement... I could even spend credits to improve her ioun stone or add a strength bonus to her belt. But surely I'm missing something that would be more helpful, especially at the higher levels (with which I am admittedly unexperienced)?
TelinArtho 03-07-07, 04:45 PM	Well, she's certainly quite capable on her own. You have enough to add another +1 enhancement to the bow (either by making it a +2 bow or giving it something else of +1 quality - elementals in particular). She seems to carry around a lot of expendables - perhaps finding something to reduce those would be worthwhile. In general though, I think lycanthropes end up with oodles of cash because they don't usually have the needs of other characters... Jar-red has a similar cash flow "problem." He's sitting on 10k himself...
SauroGrenom 03-07-07, 05:38 PM	If you can scare up an extra 2000gp, boots of speed would be my choice. I'd even like that better than the amulet of mighty fists (assuming you aren't locked in on that). The boots give a +1 on to hit rolls in addition to an extra movement speed and attack in a full attack. You could go for a custom item of some kind. A ring could be useful. Like a Ring of the Ram or Force Shield or even Protection +2. You can also easily afford a cloak of protection +3. A bornze Griffin Figurine is useful some times. Bracers of Armor are the way to go for getting a monk's AC up. You've already got good skills, but eyes of the eagle or a crystal mask or 3rd eye could help if you want to boost one or another skill even higher.
MindWandererB 03-07-07, 06:03 PM	If you can scare up an extra 2000gp, boots of speed would be my choice. I'd even like that better than the amulet of mighty fists (assuming you aren't locked in on that). The boots give a +1 on to hit rolls in addition to an extra movement speed and attack in a full attack. You could go for a custom item of some kind. A ring could be useful. Like a Ring of the Ram or Force Shield or even Protection +2. You can also easily afford a cloak of protection +3. A bornze Griffin Figurine is useful some times. Bracers of Armor are the way to go for getting a monk's AC up. You've already got good skills, but eyes of the eagle or a crystal mask or 3rd eye could help if you want to boost one or another skill even higher.It was ruled that a cloak would interfere with flight, or that would have been an easy choice. Can't wear bracers as a bat, either. Besthirah has AC to spare right now, so the prot. ring isn't a high priority, and the bronze griffon will get outclassed in an ECL or 2. As for skills, the only ones she really needs are Spot and Listen, and Spot is less important because of her blindsense. If there was a +Listen item, that might be good, although I hate to spend credits on an item I'm not sure I'll use forever. However, although the amulet is old, the ioun stone could go. The boots of speed might not be a bad idea. Hmm... Edit: Whoops, boots are a no-go, too. I think I'll save the cash for just a little while longer, then spring the credits for a Vest of Resistance +5.
sonofzeal 03-07-07, 07:51 PM	Two questions on Sunder... 1) Can sunder be used as part of a charge action? 2) Are sundered items returned to the owner intact after the fight?
MindWandererB 03-07-07, 07:53 PM	Two questions on Sunder... 1) Can sunder be used as part of a charge action? 2) Are sundered items returned to the owner intact after the fight? Yes and yes.
Erithmu 03-08-07, 12:08 AM	When casting a Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally spell, when is the moment of having to choose what creature appears? At the beginning of casting, or at the end of casting?
Zevox 03-08-07, 12:40 AM	Okay folks, looks like I'm in a situation like MWB is with Besthira. After winning that FFA, Istima has more gold than I was expecting, and I've hit a wall trying to prepare him for the Iron Man. He had a tad over 10k, and I spent 6k of that improving his Headband of Intellect to +2 and his Cloak of Resistance likewise. Then 900 more gp spent on a few expendables, and I have 3.4k remaining I'm unsure what to do with. I could bump his armor to +2 for 3k, but I'm not sure its worth it at this point. I could refund some of those expendables or sell some other stuff to scrape together the 4k for a Ring of Counterspells, but it'd be a tad annoying losing the ML 4 vigor stone, and I'm not sure what I could sell to make up the 600+ gp to buy it and a casting of Dispel Magic for it. Anyone have any other suggestions? Or suggestions for what to scrap for the ring? Zevox
sonofzeal 03-08-07, 12:42 AM	Swarms are immune to single-target spells, including Produce Flames, correct? Produce Flames feels like it should work, but I'm not sure the RAW supports that. Any thoughts?
Zevox 03-08-07, 12:47 AM	Swarms are immune to single-target spells, including Produce Flames, correct? Produce Flames feels like it should work, but I'm not sure the RAW supports that. Any thoughts? If Disintegrate doesn't work (per the Swarm immunity description), I don't see why Produce Flame would. Zevox
Tellish_of_Ket 03-08-07, 01:10 AM	At the beginning of casting, or at the end of casting? Ending afaik. ToK
Tellish_of_Ket 03-08-07, 01:12 AM	If Disintegrate doesn't work (per the Swarm immunity description), I don't see why Produce Flame would. Zevox Because produce flame is not a single targetting spell. You make either a touch attack or a ranged touch attack against whatever target you are hitting. If that's a swarm then that's a swarm. Nothing in the spell description would indicate that otherwise. Produce flame most certainly does affect a swarm (assuming it's not immune to fire). -ToK
TheMagister 03-08-07, 01:53 AM	Because produce flame is not a single targetting spell. You make either a touch attack or a ranged touch attack against whatever target you are hitting. If that's a swarm then that's a swarm. Nothing in the spell description would indicate that otherwise. Produce flame most certainly does affect a swarm (assuming it's not immune to fire). -ToK {derisive tone} No it doesn't! How could it possibly? It's a ray! Ray's are (by definition) only able to affect single targets! Note: Rays that affect multiple targets are called "lines" (aka - lightning bolt). A swarm is a collection of thousands of single targets. You could use produce flame to kill a SINGLE locust, but not a CLOUD of them. Not to be rude, but did you get enough sleep yesterday? TM
Erithmu 03-08-07, 01:54 AM	Anyone have any other suggestions? Or suggestions for what to scrap for the ring? ZevoxYou have a total of 4 buffing powers, now while sometimes they maybe very important, If your opponent is using a dispel on you, I think it is a waste of their resources. Granted those 2 4th level powers are pretty much be all end all in some fights, but I don't think your going to run into a grapple monster w/ Dispel Magic ... (then again ... that is what Harvey kinda is if he wants to be) I think I would just save the cash, and buy something nice on the far end of the IM. 3500gp you can earn in 1 fight next level (w/ no ally) just my 2 cp
Abyssal Stalker 03-08-07, 01:59 AM	{derisive tone} No it doesn't! How could it possibly? It's a ray! Ray's are (by definition) only able to affect single targets! Note: Rays that affect multiple targets are called "lines" (aka - lightning bolt). A swarm is a collection of thousands of single targets. You could use produce flame to kill a SINGLE locust, but not a CLOUD of them. Not to be rude, but did you get enough sleep yesterday? TM Just like melee attacks only affect a single target, but you can still hit a swarm with one, especially if it has an energy enhancement on it.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-08-07, 02:07 AM	{derisive tone} No it doesn't! How could it possibly? It's a ray! Ray's are (by definition) only able to affect single targets! Note: Rays that affect multiple targets are called "lines" (aka - lightning bolt). A swarm is a collection of thousands of single targets. You could use produce flame to kill a SINGLE locust, but not a CLOUD of them. Not to be rude, but did you get enough sleep yesterday? TM Enervation Effect: Ray Produce Flame Effect: Flame in the palm of your hand. Acid Splash Effect: one missile of acid. Just because you are making a ranged touch attack, does not make it a RAY. Acid splash, produce flame, are all viable attacks vs a swarm. Enervation, disintergrate are not. [sarcasm]A melee attack affects "a single target" but you can attack a swarm. So, how does that work then?[/scarsm] The spell descriptor needs to implicitly imply "single target' because that's what the spell does. A ranged touch attack does not equal RAY. Everything is a "target" when your attacking something. So by your definition, swarms are completely immune to everything except AoE spells, which is completely untrue. ToK
Zevox 03-08-07, 02:07 AM	You have a total of 4 buffing powers, now while sometimes they maybe very important, If your opponent is using a dispel on you, I think it is a waste of their resources. Granted those 2 4th level powers are pretty much be all end all in some fights, but I don't think your going to run into a grapple monster w/ Dispel Magic ... (then again ... that is what Harvey kinda is if he wants to be) True enough. Though to be nitpicky, I also have 3 item-obtained buffs. Force Screen is used often, while Touchsight and Sysnthete are conditional, but they're there (and easier to dispel than the self-manifested ones). And yeah, grapplers with dispel like Harvey are a bit of a worry, but I figure Dimension Swap and Dimension Door should let me escape them easy enough if push comes to shove. Energy Adaptation is another matter though, and next level he picks up Power Resistance, which casters will be looking to dispel all the time (I may be equipping him for the Iron Man, but looking towards the future is still a good idea). Bah, still not sure. Guess I'll sleep on it. Zevox
MindWandererB 03-08-07, 02:07 AM	When casting a Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally spell, when is the moment of having to choose what creature appears? At the beginning of casting, or at the end of casting?End.You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.Swarms are immune to single-target spells, including Produce Flames, correct? Produce Flames feels like it should work, but I'm not sure the RAW supports that. Any thoughts?I'm not sure. Technically, disintegrate isn't a single-target spell at all, it's a ray. Produce Flame is also a ranged touch attack, like a ray, but it affects the caster directly and the victim(s) indirectly. Furthermore, "A weapon with a special ability such as flaming or frost deals its full energy damage with each hit, even if the weapon’s normal damage can’t affect the swarm." Torches work, too. This suggests that energy "weapons" work, and Produce Flame most closely resembles such. (query: would psychokinetic work?) I would say yes, Produce Flame works, but it's a tough call. Okay folks, looks like I'm in a situation like MWB is with Besthira. After winning that FFA, Istima has more gold than I was expecting, and I've hit a wall trying to prepare him for the Iron Man. He had a tad over 10k, and I spent 6k of that improving his Headband of Intellect to +2 and his Cloak of Resistance likewise. Then 900 more gp spent on a few expendables, and I have 3.4k remaining I'm unsure what to do with. I could bump his armor to +2 for 3k, but I'm not sure its worth it at this point. I could refund some of those expendables or sell some other stuff to scrape together the 4k for a Ring of Counterspells, but it'd be a tad annoying losing the ML 4 vigor stone, and I'm not sure what I could sell to make up the 600+ gp to buy it and a casting of Dispel Magic for it. Anyone have any other suggestions? Or suggestions for what to scrap for the ring? ZevoxI was about to say that I'd rather have the ring than the Vigor stones, but then I noticed that Istima doesn't really buff much. Touchsight, Energy Adaptation, Freedom of Movement, and Force Screen are about it. Of course, three of those can save your life singlehandedly. I'd personally skip the cloak upgrade--it's only a +1 (although a useful +1), and it's something you can live without 19 times out of 20, not so with the Ring. @Rith/Zevox: Grapplers aren't the only ones to use Freedom of Movement on. In an enclosed map, Black Tentacles, Web and possibly Entangle (depending on the Forest revision) are concerns, and there are a few other similar spells.
TheMagister 03-08-07, 02:26 AM	Not if the swarm's immune to weapon damage, you can't. Some of the swarms take 1/2 damage from weapons. In that case, you could affect it with the energy damage from that weapon. If it's immune to weapon damage, it's immune to the energy damage from that weapon. Have you ever seen "The Mummy"? Wave a torch at those flesh-eating beetle swarms. See if it gets you anything. HA! I've been operating under a misconception! I love this place for that! You learn something new every day, seems like... TM
Abyssal Stalker 03-08-07, 02:28 AM	Vulnerabilities of Swarms Swarms are extremely difficult to fight with physical attacks. However, they have a few special vulnerabilities, as follows: A lit torch swung as an improvised weapon deals 1d3 points of fire damage per hit. A weapon with a special ability such as flaming or frost deals its full energy damage with each hit, even if the weapon’s normal damage can’t affect the swarm. A lit lantern can be used as a thrown weapon, dealing 1d4 points of fire damage to all creatures in squares adjacent to where it breaks. What more can I say, oh Ancient One? :)
Tellish_of_Ket 03-08-07, 02:29 AM	Not if the swarm's immune to weapon damage, you can't. Some of the swarms take 1/2 damage from weapons. In that case, you could affect it with the energy damage from that weapon. If it's immune to weapon damage, it's immune to the energy damage from that weapon. Have you ever seen "The Mummy"? Wave a torch at those flesh-eating beetle swarms. See if it gets you anything. TM It may be immune to weapon dmg, but it's not immune to the energy that the weapon wields. Speaking of lack of sleep, that may be true on my part, but i think someone else is suffering for a lack of oxygen. lol Breath by friend breath. lol luv yaz...i'm off to get some much needed "sleep". ToK
TheMagister 03-08-07, 02:30 AM	What more can I say, oh Ancient One? :) Yeah, yeah. I already recanted. :P
sonofzeal 03-08-07, 02:41 AM	I may as well come right out and say that I'm asking because of the monster fight I'm running for TaggIIV. For the purpose of that fight, I'm tempted to say that it works as a melee touch attack (like a torch) but not as a ranged touch attack (like a ray), unless we get more clarification.
Abyssal Stalker 03-08-07, 02:47 AM	What's the difference of throwing a ball of flame into a swarm and shooting a flaming arrow into a swarm?
TheMagister 03-08-07, 02:48 AM	That was my next question. If that has been a way to kill swarms for all this time, why do characters still die from bat swarms every week? TM
Abyssal Stalker 03-08-07, 02:54 AM	But I was faster :P
sonofzeal 03-08-07, 02:58 AM	What's the difference of throwing a ball of flame into a swarm and shooting a flaming arrow into a swarm? Not much, I'll admit; it's more of a working compromise than anything else. Unless there's a consensus I'm missing...?
MitzaVolchenko 03-08-07, 03:17 AM	Not much, I'll admit; it's more of a working compromise than anything else. Unless there's a consensus I'm missing...? One is spell damage the other isn't. Personally I would treat the flaming arrow as viable, but I am not sure I could find rules to back it up.
hogarth 03-08-07, 06:51 AM	Swarms are immune to single-target spells, including Produce Flames, correct? Produce Flames feels like it should work, but I'm not sure the RAW supports that. Any thoughts? My personal opinion: the thrown version doesn't work, but the touch version does (since it's the equivalent of a flaming weapon).
MindWandererB 03-08-07, 12:33 PM	That was my next question. If that has been a way to kill swarms for all this time, why do characters still die from bat swarms every week? TMI have no idea. All my characters carry a torch. I think. My personal opinion: the thrown version doesn't work, but the touch version does (since it's the equivalent of a flaming weapon).And a thrown flame isn't the equivalent of a flaming arrow?
hogarth 03-08-07, 12:41 PM	I have no idea. All my characters carry a torch. I think. Having a torch isn't a magic bullet -- it's an improvised weapon and that -4 to attack rolls can hurt. And a thrown flame isn't the equivalent of a flaming arrow? I'm just saying it doesn't seem to qualify as a "weapon with a special ability such as flaming" as easily as an unarmed strike + fire damage does.
McJarvis 03-08-07, 01:06 PM	And a thrown flame isn't the equivalent of a flaming arrow? I've always envisioned produce flame as being like lobbing tennis balls that are on fire...
sonofzeal 03-08-07, 02:29 PM	I've always envisioned produce flame as being like lobbing tennis balls that are on fire... The mental image for tossing Produce Flames is something I've never understood, and the lack of range incriment bothers my sense of physics. The text supports the Flaming Tennis Ball theory, but there's also the Ray theory and the Flaming Lance Of Burnitude theory. Oh, what a tangled web WotC weaves!
templer10 03-08-07, 05:41 PM	The mental image for tossing Produce Flames is something I've never understood, and the lack of range incriment bothers my sense of physics. The text supports the Flaming Tennis Ball theory, but there's also the Ray theory and the Flaming Lance Of Burnitude theory. Oh, what a tangled web WotC weaves! it doesnt really matter how you "see" it becuase as it was said before it's a known rule that a melee weapon with elemntal dmg attached to it will do it's elemental dmg to the swarm even in the weapon itself is totally ineffcitive so like somone said- at least there is no question that the melee touch version of produce flame works against swarms since it's basicly just hitting it with a hand full of flame. basicly- it doesnt have to make sense if it's in the RAW.
sonofzeal 03-08-07, 06:22 PM	Okay, in the sewers, do squares with water still count as difficult terrain to amphibious creatures or ones with the Aquatic subtype? There's no explicit exception, but it stands to reason....
MindWandererB 03-08-07, 06:32 PM	Okay, in the sewers, do squares with water still count as difficult terrain to amphibious creatures or ones with the Aquatic subtype? There's no explicit exception, but it stands to reason.... Technically, yes. It's not deep enough to swim, so aquatic creatures gain no advantage.
sonofzeal 03-08-07, 08:26 PM	I remember hearing somewhere that if you write a short story around a fight, you can earn extra credits. Is that still in effect, and if so where can I send it? And do I need permission of the players involved to do it?
Vathelokai 03-08-07, 08:41 PM	I remember hearing somewhere that if you write a short story around a fight, you can earn extra credits. Is that still in effect, and if so where can I send it? And do I need permission of the players involved to do it? Yes you can. You do need the players permission to use their characters (can't imagine anyone saying no...) As for where to put it, it can either go in the battles thread (has been done with the fight or by itself in the past). Or we can run another writing contest. I was actually thinking about that; is there enough interest to run another writing contest? Anyone interested?
Vathelokai 03-08-07, 08:41 PM	Sounds cheezy, but I can't find the rule against it... can I cast mirror image multiple times, until I have like 20 images?
hogarth 03-08-07, 08:50 PM	Sounds cheezy, but I can't find the rule against it... can I cast mirror image multiple times, until I have like 20 images? Unless otherwise noted, the same spell overlaps with itself, it doesn't stack. So you would get the benefit of the highest number of images from one of the mirror image spells.
sonofzeal 03-08-07, 08:52 PM	One more question about writing - if I have a friend who's literarily inclined, and is okay with it, could they write it and I submit it if I give proper credit?
TheMagister 03-08-07, 08:54 PM	Hopefully you have a little more self respect than that...
McJarvis 03-08-07, 09:00 PM	Hopefully you have a little more self respect than that... Depends on whether the friend wants the credit, no? ;)
TheMagister 03-08-07, 09:09 PM	Hey, if a friend is inspired to write a neat story based on events that he saw here, fantastic. But to have someone else profit off of it...that's just too corporate-american for me. ;)
McJarvis 03-08-07, 09:10 PM	Hey, if a friend is inspired to write a neat story based on events that he saw here, fantastic. But to have someone else profit off of it...that's just too corporate-american for me. ;) LoL. I guess I would only see a problem with it if the friend played here too ;)
Erithmu 03-08-07, 09:10 PM	I would be up for another writing contest ... March could produce some interesting situations with the IMT coming. Although April could be good.
TheMagister 03-08-07, 09:24 PM	LoL. I guess I would only see a problem with it if the friend played here too ;) You are so competitive! I don't care whether his friend plays here or not (though his friend would be silly to not post the story personally if he does play here). The problem that I have with that hypothetical situation is the moral issue of taking another person's work (with or without their knowledge, mind) and using it for your own personal gain. The author of the story gets a nod, true. But the only person to really profit off of it is the poster. {sigh} I guess that I can't really defend my gut reaction to that question. There are too many "but what if"s. "But what if his friend only wants to post the story so that he can read the praise that it would generate? He's got no use for the credits, so why not let his friend have them?" Because the poster didn't write the piece. It wasn't his creativity, his effort, and his talent that went into the piece. I can't be any more specific than that. I'm sure there are other "what if"s that could be conjectured. I can't imagine any of them making the situation sit well with me. I'm too old-fashioned, I guess. Us "ancient" people are hard to change, you know. {nod to Abyssal} :)
McJarvis 03-08-07, 09:28 PM	Technically my face & my birthday was given to me by my parents and is only the result of their work, but I'm still the one that'll get those credits.(btw-> it's March 29th.[birthday, not face]) ;) edit-> I'm not really sure at all how this conversation makes me competitive. If I come off that way, I think you'd be very surprised to meet me in RL. :)
TheMagister 03-08-07, 09:53 PM	As to the competitive tone I deduced: When you said that it didn't matter as long as his friend didn't play here, I figured it was because it didn't matter to you because you wouldn't be competing against unfair credit intake via the "buddy" system. Like you helping me work up the credits for a certain item by pitlording fights and saying "Aw, I don't need the credits. Give 'em to TM!". You'd hear people howlin' about that one. TM
McJarvis 03-08-07, 09:56 PM	LoL. TM: if you want ten or so of my creds, you are certainly free to have them :-) I meant more along the lines of "it wouldn't be cheating the buddy who rightfully owns the credits if he didn't play here". I don't spend nearly enough credits to be worried about competing against other people's credit limits :) I just spend whatever I want & then move on.
sonofzeal 03-08-07, 09:59 PM	Aw darn, and I here I was hoping to win some easy credits off of my writer girlfriend. :P
NiQil 03-08-07, 10:01 PM	Aw darn, and I here I was hoping to win some easy credits off of my writer girlfriend. :P Despite TM's misgivings, if the author has given permission to use the stories, to my knowledge there is nothing restricting this. My wife redesigned our arena map some time back (she does graphic design), and I got the credits for that.
McJarvis 03-08-07, 10:17 PM	Question: Artificer is going to level at some point during his next 3FC. Can he copy a 3rd level spell into his spell book now in preparation for leveling up? I know he gets 2 freebies as part of the level, but there is a possibility that I will want three different spells(since he'll have access to three level 3 spells right off the bat)
Vathelokai 03-08-07, 10:19 PM	Unless otherwise noted, the same spell overlaps with itself, it doesn't stack. So you would get the benefit of the highest number of images from one of the mirror image spells. For some reason I was thinking that only applied to spells that give numeric bonuses. For example, you can cast summon monster 5 twice and get 2d4+2 monsters (instead of the best of two 1d4+1 rolls). Similarly, you can cast major image twice. Mirror image creates a number of figment illusions. I mention again: I believe this is against the rules intentions, I just wonder if anyone knows where the actual rule is written (FAQ maybe?) *EDIT* Hey NiQil; your sig is broken.
NiQil 03-08-07, 10:38 PM	For some reason I was thinking that only applied to spells that give numeric bonuses. For example, you can cast summon monster 5 twice and get 2d4+2 monsters (instead of the best of two 1d4+1 rolls). Similarly, you can cast major image twice. Mirror image creates a number of figment illusions. I mention again: I believe this is against the rules intentions, I just wonder if anyone knows where the actual rule is written (FAQ maybe?) *EDIT* Hey NiQil; your sig is broken. Broken how?
Vathelokai 03-08-07, 10:47 PM	Broken how? This is what It looks like to my browser: open code and sblock, "blades record class" dosn't link ... PM NiQil PM Prisonlords [sblock=Core Coliseum Gladiators][code] The Blades Record Class
NiQil 03-08-07, 10:52 PM	This is what It looks like to my browser: open code and sblock, "blades record class" dosn't link ... PM NiQil PM Prisonlords [sblock=Core Coliseum Gladiators][code] The Blades Record Class Anyone else seeing this problem with my sig? It appears to be operating normally for me. Edit: Vath, check it now. I think I may have had an open tag that would cause issues for FireFox. See if what I did changed anything.
Vathelokai 03-08-07, 11:15 PM	Yup; that fixed it.
NiQil 03-08-07, 11:18 PM	Cool beans. I had some erroneous spaces between tags that was causing the problem.
Zevox 03-08-07, 11:23 PM	I was actually thinking about that; is there enough interest to run another writing contest? Anyone interested? Normally, I'd certainly be such. I still intend to finish Eraca's story. But with school in I don't have time for now. Come May though I should be up for it. Zevox
Vathelokai 03-08-07, 11:57 PM	When you die in a quest, do you restart your 3fight cycle, or continue as if you lost the fight? And you loose whatever items you used? Do you gain looser xp for a failed guild mission? (asking about non-frozen stuff here)
Zevox 03-09-07, 12:03 AM	When you die in a quest, do you restart your 3fight cycle, or continue as if you lost the fight? And you loose whatever items you used? Do you gain looser xp for a failed guild mission? (asking about non-frozen stuff here) A) Restart cycle in a normal quest. Quests don't use the 3-fight-cycle (they don't even use the 1/3 rule, for that matter). Missions use the cycle though, and continue as if you'd lost a fight. B) Yes, you lose used items, of course. C) No, you don't gain loser rewards, just like in a normal quest. If its not one of the differences specifically spelled out in the Guildhall post about Missions, its not different between Missions and Quests. Zevox
MindWandererB 03-09-07, 12:18 AM	Question: Artificer is going to level at some point during his next 3FC. Can he copy a 3rd level spell into his spell book now in preparation for leveling up? I know he gets 2 freebies as part of the level, but there is a possibility that I will want three different spells(since he'll have access to three level 3 spells right off the bat) I see nothing in the rules about arcane writings that prohibits this. Knock yourself out.
sonofzeal 03-09-07, 02:13 AM	What are the pricing guidelines of +skill items? I know it's 5 credits, but what formula is used for the gold cost? And are there rules for characters to craft their own?
MindWandererB 03-09-07, 02:23 AM	What are the pricing guidelines of +skill items? I know it's 5 credits, but what formula is used for the gold cost? And are there rules for characters to craft their own? Competence bonuses are bonus squared * 100. Other bonus types may be double, depending on whether you can find precedent.
MysticMonk2005 03-09-07, 04:41 AM	Quick question, would an Elite Array +1 HD monster cost 5 or 10 creds?
hogarth 03-09-07, 07:05 AM	For some reason I was thinking that only applied to spells that give numeric bonuses. For example, you can cast summon monster 5 twice and get 2d4+2 monsters (instead of the best of two 1d4+1 rolls). Similarly, you can cast major image twice. Mirror image creates a number of figment illusions. I mention again: I believe this is against the rules intentions, I just wonder if anyone knows where the actual rule is written (FAQ maybe?) I think this covers it. Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies.
Hirumajoe 03-09-07, 02:08 PM	I know there was a discussion in the Council thread about making the Forest map more pitlord friendly. While I can find the dicussion, I didn't see anything approved (or changed on the map post in the Characters thread). Is the forest map still the same old forest map? And if so, does someone want to bring it back up in the Council thread? I think there was total agreement that something should be done about it...
TelinArtho 03-09-07, 02:16 PM	Nothing's been done about it yet, although Cat mentioned that perhaps some changes might be possible. Stay tuned in other words...
Macbrea 03-09-07, 02:50 PM	Isn't that mercenary just a tad specialized for your characters? Should add will work for free for Characters named Anakala or Farig!
hogarth 03-09-07, 02:55 PM	Isn't that mercenary just a tad specialized for your characters? Should add will work for free for Characters named Anakala or Farig! If that mercenary goes through, I predict a religious revival for all of my characters. ;)
TelinArtho 03-09-07, 02:55 PM	Isn't that mercenary just a tad specialized for your characters? Should add will work for free for Characters named Anakala or Farig! Actually I figured it would work well with the whole Church of Denth PMG in Gladius. I'm actually writing up one for each of the ECLs. Also, Ana and Farig are not the only Denthians around: Tlanth, Vakkor, Delaria and of course Kraegin are also Denthians (and yes, they are all my characters. But there's no harm in me trying to get a few more characters into the Denthian faith :) (I should probably note that while Cat put the moniker of Farig "of Denth" on Farig, she was not originally intended to be a Denthian... but since it happened I stuck with it...) Ironically enough though, I am just trying to get more mercs out there so when I have characters who might use mercs (like my upcoming bard...), they have a bit more selection. Fighting over Trillian (with Balrog...) just seems too much effort... EDIT - I should add that it is no different than giving a break to people from the desert for Jazer - so I see no reason that it should be a problem. If there's any concern though - I don't think ANY of my Denthians would waste their money on Angela though... (they are MUCH better summoners than she'll ever be...). If that mercenary goes through, I predict a religious revival for all of my characters. ;) And that's the kind of enthusiam I am talking about...
hogarth 03-09-07, 02:57 PM	Ironically enough though, I am just trying to get more mercs out there so when I have characters who might use mercs (like my upcoming bard...), they have a bit more selection. Fighting over Trillian (with Balrog...) just seems too much effort... I thought there was a whole "Catch-22" thing going on: The selection for mercenaries is lousy, so nobody hires them. Since nobody hires mercenaries, the selection doesn't get increased.
TelinArtho 03-09-07, 02:58 PM	Well, I'm single-handedly trying to change that then...
Macbrea 03-09-07, 02:59 PM	Your right there does need to be More CR 1 to CR 3 mercs. I was just noting that you choose to build that one in such a fashion that it's built only for your characters. A healing damage item for 50gp rocks.
McJarvis 03-09-07, 03:00 PM	What I want even more than more mercs: I want standard "default" equipment for all the monsters with equipment entries. This would not be "required" for a pitlord to use, but at least would let the pitlord use it if he were short on time & didn't want to have to think about individual purchases the monster might make(especially with a monster that he is familiar with) I would sign up to Missionlord/questlord alot more if there were around(because then I could focus on RP and not monster generation.)
TelinArtho 03-09-07, 03:01 PM	Maybe you should temper your statement like this: "built only for your characters at the moment." I will certainly introduce other Mercs that are more widely useful, but as I said, Angela isn't terribly useful to one of my summoners. She will be much more useful to someone who needs an occasional summoned monster and perhaps some melee punch.
TelinArtho 03-09-07, 03:03 PM	What I want even more than more mercs: I want standard "default" equipment for all the monsters with equipment entries. This would not be "required" for a pitlord to use, but at least would let the pitlord use it if he were short on time & didn't want to have to think about individual purchases the monster might make(especially with a monster that he is familiar with) I would sign up to Missionlord/questlord alot more if there were around(because then I could focus on RP and not monster generation.) I still disagree about putting it up - but as with anything - if you want to see it - do the legwork and get it considered. Just proposing that they should have a "default" set of equipment doesn't get the work done for it. At the worst, you end up with a list of default equipment for yourself - thereby solving your own problem...
McJarvis 03-09-07, 03:05 PM	Hey-> the whole point of this is I don't have time to go around making equipment lists for fights I randomly get assigned during the week. I'll admit-> in the past I have rolled for monsters & kept rolling 'till I got one that was not only not an auto-loss for the monster but also a monster that didn't have any equipment I would have to pick. When I run fights I don't want to have to generate a character-> I want to just grab two characters & go.
Macbrea 03-09-07, 03:05 PM	Nah.. I am just ribbing you. I don't think it would be approved in that form. It is likely to be modified to a more neutral type mercenary. I submitted two and one made it through. Sparks would have been so useful for me now it's not even funny. But it happens.
MitzaVolchenko 03-09-07, 03:28 PM	Well, I'm single-handedly trying to change that then... Not that I count for much, but I think that change is a worthy idea. I'd generate a few mercs and offer them, but the current status quo would have to break on that score for it to be worth the time.
Rauul 03-09-07, 04:08 PM	Whats the Formula for paying for Spells that you scribe into a Blessed Book (it's 1 spell per page no matter the level of the spell and can hold 1000 spells) Blessed Book This well-made tome is always of small size, typically no more than 12 inches tall, 8 inches wide, and 1 inch thick. All such books are durable, waterproof, bound with iron overlaid with silver, and locked. A wizard can fill the 1,000 pages of a blessed book with spells without paying the 100 gp per page material cost. This book is never found as randomly generated treasure with spells already inscribed in it. Basicly i am looking for the costs of Spells levels 1-4 without the 100 gp per page thanks for your time... cause i am lost
McJarvis 03-09-07, 04:16 PM	Whats the Formula for paying for Spells that you scribe into a Blessed Book (it's 1 spell per page no matter the level of the spell and can hold 1000 spells) Basicly i am looking for the costs of Spells levels 1-4 without the 100 gp per page thanks for your time... cause i am lost In the CoCo it is 50xSpell level(to pay for services of copying the spell), I believe. The blessed book effectively removes the cost of 100gp per page per spell level(5 pages per level 5 spell, 3 pages per...etc) Which is why blessed books are so valuable to wizards. Instead of paying 4x50=200+400(4*100)=600 gp per level 4 spell, they only pay the 200.
TelinArtho 03-09-07, 04:17 PM	Well, for 1st level spells, its still cheaper to go with scrolls though: SL1 = 25gp (CL1 scroll) SL2 = 100gp (NPC services) SL3 = 150gp SL4 = 200gp
sonofzeal 03-09-07, 04:21 PM	Can a character craft their own +skill items? A psionic character could potentially craft their own Third Eye of Concentration for that +10, but are there any options for an arcanist to craft an item for a similar bonus?
TelinArtho 03-09-07, 04:23 PM	With credits, a custom item in the appropriate slot would be acceptable (as has been proven in a number of cases). Requirements would be the appropriate feat (probably Craft Wondrous Item or sometimes Forge Ring) and x ranks in the skill, where x is equal to the bonus you want to gain. So, +5 Bracelets of Handle Animal --> Craft Wondrous Item, at least 5 ranks in Handle Animal, 2500gp market, 1250gp crafted. And credits of course.
Zevox 03-09-07, 04:39 PM	Can a character craft their own +skill items? A psionic character could potentially craft their own Third Eye of Concentration for that +10, but are there any options for an arcanist to craft an item for a similar bonus? Eh? Third Eye of Concentration for +10? *checks SRD* Oooh, I didn't know that existed! I'm suddenly very tempted to have Istima take Craft Universal Item just to get that cheap. Talk about making it nigh impossible to make him fail a concentration check. :plotting: Zevox
TelinArtho 03-09-07, 04:45 PM	Okay, the first three mercenaries have been posted. Comments are welcome and suggestions are accepted. Angela Bairns Human Cleric of Denth 1 Don Relik Human Cleric of Denth 2 Alden Fosyth Human Cleric of Denth 3
hogarth 03-09-07, 04:50 PM	Okay, the first three mercenaries have been posted. Comments are welcome and suggestions are accepted. Angela Bairns Human Cleric of Denth 1 Don Relik Human Cleric of Denth 2 Alden Fosyth Human Cleric of Denth 3 Judging from the roster of mercenaries so far, it looks like Caterane puts a premium on variety of classes and a kooky personality. I doubt he'll jump at the opportunity to add three more fairly vanilla clerics.
McJarvis 03-09-07, 04:50 PM	Welcome, Crazed Penchant!(at least, I'm pretty sure you're new!)
SauroGrenom 03-09-07, 04:51 PM	Eh? Third Eye of Concentration for +10? *checks SRD* Oooh, I didn't know that existed! I'm suddenly very tempted to have Istima take Craft Universal Item just to get that cheap. Talk about making it nigh impossible to make him fail a concentration check. :plotting: ZevoxIf you have credits to burn, craft universal item is a must have. You'll never get the low cost stat boosting stuff, but there's lots of room for cool stuff.
TelinArtho 03-09-07, 04:56 PM	Judging from the roster of mercenaries so far, it looks like Caterane puts a premium on variety of classes and a kooky personality. I doubt he'll jump at the opportunity to add three more fairly vanilla clerics. Well I plan on badgering him to add at least one - I'm not really expecting all of them to get added. Having some selection at ECL3 and ECL4 is really needed to make mercenaries viable. If there's any question about them being used, I am sure my not-yet-posted Bard will take advantage when he gets to the requisite level - and he's not a Denthian bard (just in case that was a question...). As to variety, the only cleric on the list is at ECL4 - meaning you need to be ECL6 to use him. Having more variety in the amateur range will help proliferate mercenaries being used (I hope).
Rauul 03-09-07, 04:57 PM	ok anyone able to help me? Cost to craft level 1-4 scrolls I keep getting the formula mixed up
TelinArtho 03-09-07, 04:59 PM	25gp * CL * SL 25 * 1 * 1 = 25gp for level 1/2 for crafting: 12.5gp 25 * 3 * 2 = 150gp for level 2/2 for crafting: 75gp 25 * 5 * 3 = 375gp for level 3/2 for crafting: 187.5gp 25 * 7 * 4 = 700gp for level 4/2 for crafting: 350gp.
hogarth 03-09-07, 05:04 PM	As to variety, the only cleric on the list is at ECL4 - meaning you need to be ECL6 to use him. Having more variety in the amateur range will help proliferate mercenaries being used (I hope). Don't get me wrong -- if there were an ECL 1 cleric (or wizard) on the roster, Reginald Molehusband probably would have hired him already; it's kind of moot now that he's going to get leadership followers. But I suspect that the current choices for mercenaries aren't supposed to be that good, so submitting "better" mercenaries might be counterproductive.
Zevox 03-09-07, 05:04 PM	ok anyone able to help me? Cost to craft level 1-4 scrolls I keep getting the formula mixed up Formula for any scrolls is: 25*spell level*caster level. You add the gold value of any non-free material components if they have such, and plus 5 gp/xp if it has an xp cost. Divide by 2 for self-crafting. If you have credits to burn, craft universal item is a must have. You'll never get the low cost stat boosting stuff, but there's lots of room for cool stuff. Unfortunately, at the moment, I don't have credits to burn. School preventing me from pitlording and all that. Come May though I'll probably start pitlording at least 4 fights again, so then I should be able to swap one of his feats (Combat Manifestation I'm thinking) for that, and craft some nice items. With that Third Eye of Concentration being the first. +30 Concentration at level 10 will be so very nice :devil: . Zevox
Rauul 03-09-07, 05:04 PM	Acually i was thinking maybe Some undead for a ecl 3-4 cleric to command would be useful for the Merc's.. you never know when a necromancer or Cleric of Death would wanna hire out 2-3 skeletons or Zombies.. And maybe a Animal Area.. for those druids and Ranger to rent a pet for a day... But with all Honesty... a Merc Shouldn't count as an Ally for Awards.. Since you pay them in Advance.. That might make a Merc more usefull.. but having to pay them and then having to pay them again win or loose.. is a lost cause
TelinArtho 03-09-07, 05:12 PM	@Rauul - honestly, if you plan well, Mercs essentially can work out like a combination expendable and ally. For instance, Jazer is a 100gp expendable for an ECL3 character. He counts as an ally, so that cuts down the rewards of the fight. If you plan the expendable portion of the merc into your character (either by using less expendables or none at all), then he becomes just an intelligent ally. Intelligent allies tend to serve you better than unintelligent ones (your mileage may vary...), so it can be very worthwhile. Sdentch, as an example, made very good use of Hauber from my perspective in the few times she hired him. For a character who is better in company (for instance a bard able to inspire courage...), the intelligent ally portion will probably be more effective. Don't get me wrong, mercenaries aren't for everyone - but they certainly have their place... (see Balrog's use of Trillian as a for example...). But I suspect that the current choices for mercenaries aren't supposed to be that good, so submitting "better" mercenaries might be counterproductive. The current selection of mercenaries is dictated at this point by what Cat has approved. I am hoping to give a little more variety - since those that have been approved haven't been widely used (or even rarely used to some extent...). If Cat doesn't want any more mercs then he's going to have to say something to that effect...
TelinArtho 03-09-07, 05:40 PM	I was just looking through the mercenaries that are allowed right now and I think it is funny to see what it takes to not be able to get them... Okay, if I am a goblinoid or orc arcane caster of chaotic alignment and great reknown by ECL5, I could not hire any of the mercenaries unless my class was specifically Bard... and I had at least 5 ranks in diplomacy... If the character is evil, he couldn't hire Hauber either at ECL7 - but at that point he could have enough cross-class ranks to get the necessary 5 ranks in diplomacy... At ECL8, if you are still Great reknown, you wouldn't be able to hire Simaro either... Sorry - I just thought that was rather interesting...
SauroGrenom 03-09-07, 06:01 PM	Merc's are a bad deal when it comes down to comparing them to other allies. They decrease rewards, and they cost money for every fight. Compare that to a diplomacy ally or HA ally. Those kinds of allies you get by forking over cash once, then you don't have to pay every week. Merc's are like expendables, while other allies are like equipment. Given the choice between a single use item and continuous use item of same effect and cost, I'd choose the continuous item every time.
sonofzeal 03-09-07, 06:01 PM	I was just looking through the mercenaries that are allowed right now and I think it is funny to see what it takes to not be able to get them... Okay, if I am a goblinoid or orc arcane caster of chaotic alignment and great reknown by ECL5, I could not hire any of the mercenaries unless my class was specifically Bard... and I had at least 5 ranks in diplomacy... If the character is evil, he couldn't hire Hauber either at ECL7 - but at that point he could have enough cross-class ranks to get the necessary 5 ranks in diplomacy... At ECL8, if you are still Great reknown, you wouldn't be able to hire Simaro either... Sorry - I just thought that was rather interesting... I've had a Hobgoblin character on the back burner for a little while now; I'll see if I can pop him out as a merc on Sunday. "Only works for Goblinoids, orcs, and kobolds" maybe?
TelinArtho 03-09-07, 06:08 PM	Merc's are a bad deal when it comes down to comparing them to other allies. They decrease rewards, and they cost money for every fight. Compare that to a diplomacy ally or HA ally. Those kinds of allies you get by forking over cash once, then you don't have to pay every week. Merc's are like expendables, while other allies are like equipment. Given the choice between a single use item and continuous use item of same effect and cost, I'd choose the continuous item every time. And if you don't have the skill points to devote to HA or diplomacy? What about for a spot of problem in character design - say a dwarf moving at 20ft... Jazer's entangle can do wonders to slow down your opponent - and his ability to corral the opponent is worth something as well... As I said, mercs require some planning - but I think they can work quite well if you plan well.
Zevox 03-09-07, 06:13 PM	@ Sauro - My brother and I just stumbled upon something interesting you'll want to know for Raskos. It appears all of our rules about loss of allies in quests and campaigns include the clause "Once the [event] is over, you gain your deceased allies back." Which means Raskos should never have lost his familiar! Zevox
SauroGrenom 03-09-07, 06:18 PM	@ Sauro - My brother and I just stumbled upon something interesting you'll want to know for Raskos. It appears all of our rules about loss of allies in quests and campaigns include the clause "Once the [event] is over, you gain your deceased allies back." Which means Raskos should never have lost his familiar! ZevoxHmm. That's interesting. Well..well..well... I was planning on getting an Imp if I can get Raskos up one more level. What's the policy on replacing a familiar using the improved familiar feat?
Zevox 03-09-07, 06:19 PM	Hmm. That's interesting. Well..well..well... I was planning on getting an Imp if I can get Raskos up one more level. What's the policy on replacing a familiar using the improved familiar feat? Cat ruled it would be allowed without the typical penalty for familiar loss in order to prevent the feat from being nigh useless to those starting at low levels - just pay the 100 gp to summon it and dismiss the old familiar. Zevox
Tellish_of_Ket 03-09-07, 08:45 PM	Well I plan on badgering him to add at least one - I'm not really expecting all of them to get added. Having some selection at ECL3 and ECL4 is really needed to make mercenaries viable. If there's any question about them being used, I am sure my not-yet-posted Bard will take advantage when he gets to the requisite level - and he's not a Denthian bard (just in case that was a question...). As to variety, the only cleric on the list is at ECL4 - meaning you need to be ECL6 to use him. Having more variety in the amateur range will help proliferate mercenaries being used (I hope). Bravo, the Exaggerator Actually, i was just finishing a Merc when Telin posted his batch. I made this guy after the Bardic debates of earlier to showcase a bit that, hey, Bards can be cool and fun. He has a quirky personality and combat ability that isn't cookie-cutter. ToK
TaggIIV 03-09-07, 08:48 PM	Does any trap get an automatic trigger using the "set trap" skill package, no matter the required setting or trigger? Like could you set a portcullis or "razor wire across hallway" to its desired effect despite the seeming lack of suitable terrain?
MitzaVolchenko 03-09-07, 08:51 PM	Does any trap get an automatic trigger using the "set trap" skill package, no matter the required setting or trigger? Like could you set a portcullis or "razor wire across hallway" to its desired effect despite the seeming lack of suitable terrain? Yes. The Set Trap skill package presumes that the opponent will walk into it. They are in fact required to. We do not bother with anything logical like why they don't see the new Swinging Block trap set up in the hall from their dressing room.
NiQil 03-09-07, 09:24 PM	FAIR WARNING! Sunday will be the final Prison Roll Call before the Iron Man Tournament. All characters who wish to participate may not have any violations as of that Roll Call. Any characters listed on that roll call will not be allowed to participate in the Iron Man Tournament. So, for those of you (stares at Cat) that have violations on your characters, better get 'em fixed!
MysticMonk2005 03-09-07, 10:47 PM	Quick question, would an Elite Array +1 HD monster cost 5 or 10 creds? *Bump*
Tellish_of_Ket 03-09-07, 10:49 PM	Quick question, would an Elite Array +1 HD monster cost 5 or 10 creds?*Bump* In what context? As an ally? And if so, what kind of ally? ToK
False_Keraptis 03-10-07, 01:17 AM	Aloha folks, My character Fnorri the Miser is set to level this cycle one way or the other, and I thought I'd ask opinions as to which feat he ought to select for his fifth level wizard bonus feat. I'm eying maximize spell, quicken spell, and the always-popular extend spell; what I really want is energy substitution: sonic, but that has "any metamagic feat" as a prereq, and somehow Fnorri doesn't have one yet. For what it's worth, Fnorri's planning to go loremaster, so his level 6 feat is going to have to be skill focus: knowledge. I know maximize spell and quicken spell won't be too useful off the bat, but in the long run they'll pay off; I'm seriously considering taking craft rod at level 9 and making a couple metamagic rods. Thanks, FK
Rauul 03-10-07, 01:19 AM	Aloha folks, My character Fnorri the Miser is set to level this cycle one way or the other, and I thought I'd ask opinions as to which feat he ought to select for his fifth level wizard bonus feat. I'm eying maximize spell, quicken spell, and the always-popular extend spell; what I really want is energy substitution: sonic, but that has "any metamagic feat" as a prereq, and somehow Fnorri doesn't have one yet. For what it's worth, Fnorri's planning to go loremaster, so his level 6 feat is going to have to be skill focus: knowledge. I know maximize spell and quicken spell won't be too useful off the bat, but in the long run they'll pay off; I'm seriously considering taking craft rod at level 9 and making a couple metamagic rods. Thanks, FK Isn't gonna level if you dun get me those tactics!!! i really hate to make someone surrender.... So get to typing!
Zevox 03-10-07, 01:42 AM	Aloha folks, My character Fnorri the Miser is set to level this cycle one way or the other, and I thought I'd ask opinions as to which feat he ought to select for his fifth level wizard bonus feat. I'm eying maximize spell, quicken spell, and the always-popular extend spell; what I really want is energy substitution: sonic, but that has "any metamagic feat" as a prereq, and somehow Fnorri doesn't have one yet. For what it's worth, Fnorri's planning to go loremaster, so his level 6 feat is going to have to be skill focus: knowledge. I know maximize spell and quicken spell won't be too useful off the bat, but in the long run they'll pay off; I'm seriously considering taking craft rod at level 9 and making a couple metamagic rods. Thanks, FK If you need a metamagic feat now, I'd suggest Empower Spell or Extend Spell. Extend for the obvious Mage Armor, False Life, and the like, Empower for things such as perhaps Magic Missile early on, definitely Scorching Ray later (at level 7 thats 2 ranged touch attacks for a total 8d6*1.5 damage - ouchy), and of course the obvious fireball/lightning bolt/etc as time goes on. Quicken will take forever to be useful (you need to be level 9 to even use it on anything but a Cantrip), and Maximize Spell is generally inferior to Empower Spell statistically, and takes longer to be usable on good spells (by level 7 the best you can do with it is get a flat 20 damage from MMs or 30 from Shocking Grasp, using a precious 4th level spell slot), so I wouldn't advise those. If you don't need a metamagic feat (for instance, if you could pay the credits to swap that nigh-useless Iron Will feat for one), you could grab Craft Wand and start making things like Wands of Magic Missiles or Fireball for yourself at half price. Very nice that, and it'll count towards qualifying for Loremaster. Zevox
Rauul 03-10-07, 02:38 AM	ok call me a N00bie... i took Improved Turning (lvl 3) Feat, on Rauul Darkstar, cause well as an evil priest he could rebulk more.. and was is great for Roleplay... but isn't so great in the arena... what do i have to do to change that feat? and no i haven't used it LOL.. Would like to trade it out with Craft wonderous item.., can someone point me in the right direction?
Zevox 03-10-07, 02:46 AM	ok call me a N00bie... i took Improved Turning (lvl 3) Feat, on Rauul Darkstar, cause well as an evil priest he could rebulk more.. and was is great for Roleplay... but isn't so great in the arena... what do i have to do to change that feat? and no i haven't used it LOL.. Would like to trade it out with Craft wonderous item.., can someone point me in the right direction? Given you haven't used it and its obviously fairly useless here, you should be able to get it changed for free by posting the request in the Training Hall of Gladius thread. Worst-case-scenario you post there and have to pay 5 credits for the change, but don't think you'll be charged for this one. My first character had a similar situation where he took Skill Focus (Spellcraft) as his 3rd level feat, and I got that switched for free, so I don't see why yours wouldn't. Zevox
MindWandererB 03-10-07, 02:49 AM	ok call me a N00bie... i took Improved Turning (lvl 3) Feat, on Rauul Darkstar, cause well as an evil priest he could rebulk more.. and was is great for Roleplay... but isn't so great in the arena... what do i have to do to change that feat? and no i haven't used it LOL.. Would like to trade it out with Craft wonderous item.., can someone point me in the right direction? Post your request in the Training Hall. Since he's only level 4, and has never rebuked anything, the change should be free.
Rauul 03-10-07, 03:01 AM	thanks guys...
Abyssal Stalker 03-10-07, 03:27 AM	I have some monster PCs floating on my hard disk that I've created for the monster fights/miniquests/quests that I've ran. I was wondering if we should have a NPCs of Gladius thread where we could send all those NPCs we have created. It's kind of boring to forget them after only one use. I think other people could get some ideas out of them or use them as they are on their quests. A thread like that couold be useful. Or should I just post them to the "propose merc"-thread? I would rather see an own place for them. Any monsters would fit there too. (This is something in lines with McJ's suggestion, I know)
Tellish_of_Ket 03-10-07, 03:41 AM	Is there a "true strike" equivalent in psionics? Curious is all. ToK
Zevox 03-10-07, 03:48 AM	Is there a "true strike" equivalent in psionics? Curious is all. ToK Nope. You can get a +1 insight bonus to attacks from Offensive Precognition, more if you augment it, but thats as close as you get. Zevox
False_Keraptis 03-10-07, 03:51 AM	Maximize Spell is generally inferior to Empower Spell statistically. Wow, I just ran the numbers on a 10th level fireball, and empower is nearly as good as maximize for 1 SL less. Thanks for pointing that out. I am kind of tempted to spend the credits to swap out iron will, but that would wipe out my meager balance. I worked so hard for my handful of credits that I just can't bear to part with them. Besides, iron will did come through for me in a miniquest vs. a vampire spawn. Although if I had it to do over, I definitely would go with a metamagic feat instead.
Rauul 03-10-07, 10:35 AM	I have some monster PCs floating on my hard disk that I've created for the monster fights/miniquests/quests that I've ran. I was wondering if we should have a NPCs of Gladius thread where we could send all those NPCs we have created. It's kind of boring to forget them after only one use. I think other people could get some ideas out of them or use them as they are on their quests. A thread like that couold be useful. Or should I just post them to the "propose merc"-thread? I would rather see an own place for them. Any monsters would fit there too. (This is something in lines with McJ's suggestion, I know) Oh i Would like this... give Gladius more of a life and death.. What i would like to really know is that since templates are suppost to be rare... why in Gods name is there so many of them on the random monster lists.. IF as MWB saids CR dosn't = ECL why are the monsters on the lists all CR (what ever the lists are)Example.. I rolled this for an ECL 5 Mission.. 53: 1 Fiendish Temporal Filcher [CR 5] 56hps, SR 13, DR 5/magic , Resistance to Cold and Fire 10, Psionic D-door at will.. (8 hit dice + fiendish template makes this effectively a 10 hit dice monster) Without the Template it is CR3 8 hitdice psionic creature... and would be barely doable by a lucky ECL 5 player solo.. (no SR 13, No DR) If in my game i had rolled something like this i could look at the party and see yes a party can take it but there would be casualtys.. 1 on 1 all i see is death to any ECL 5 charater..
sonofzeal 03-10-07, 10:50 AM	Oh i Would like this... give Gladius more of a life and death.. What i would like to really know is that since templates are suppost to be rare... why in Gods name is there so many of them on the random monster lists.. IF as MWB saids CR dosn't = ECL why are the monsters on the lists all CR (what ever the lists are)Example.. I rolled this for an ECL 5 Mission.. 53: 1 Fiendish Temporal Filcher [CR 5] 56hps, SR 13, DR 5/magic , Resistance to Cold and Fire 10, Psionic D-door at will.. (8 hit dice + fiendish template makes this effectively a 10 hit dice monster) Without the Template it is CR3 8 hitdice psionic creature... and would be barely doable by a lucky ECL 5 player solo.. (no SR 13, No DR) If in my game i had rolled something like this i could look at the party and see yes a party can take it but there would be casualtys.. 1 on 1 all i see is death to any ECL 5 charater.. CR != ECL because, in standard tabletop D&D, a lot of abilities are far more valuable to a continuing PC than to a monster. Examples would be teleportation, flight, SR, DR, fast healing, extra limbs, etc. Pretty much any time a monster has those, its ECL will be higher than its CR, because those powers are signifantly more useful over the course of an adventurer's carreer than they'd be to a monster who'll be pushing up daisies in under a minute anyway.
SauroGrenom 03-10-07, 11:06 AM	CR != ECL because, in standard tabletop D&D, a lot of abilities are far more valuable to a continuing PC than to a monster. Examples would be teleportation, flight, SR, DR, fast healing, extra limbs, etc. Pretty much any time a monster has those, its ECL will be higher than its CR, because those powers are signifantly more useful over the course of an adventurer's carreer than they'd be to a monster who'll be pushing up daisies in under a minute anyway. Although most of what you say here about the utility of various abilities is true, the final conclusion is not. Generally CR is within 1 of LA (the exceptions being when a monster has lost of spell like abilities). The primary reason that ECL is not equal to CR is because of racial HD. When designing monster you don't count the HD very heavily into CR. For characters every HD is +1 ECL. For all monsters +1 CR is 2-4 HD. As EL goes up, the HD increase of monsters vastly outpaces the HD increase on characters. For combat with a party, this is necessary because you have 4 or more characters acting in every round. For a monster to survive the same number of rounds of combat, it needs to have an increase in HP that matches the damage output of the party. So every +1 HD on the characters, the monster gets +4 HD just to have the same survivability in combat. If you change to a CoCo type environment, then you have only one character fighting the monster. At low levels this is fine because the monsters have few HD to begin with. But as ECL goes up and CR goes up you see that the monsters increase in HD (and all the abilities that go with) far faster than the characters. Thus monsters get to be totally overpowering challenges for single characters as levels go higher.
Rauul 03-10-07, 11:10 AM	CR != ECL because, in standard tabletop D&D, a lot of abilities are far more valuable to a continuing PC than to a monster. Examples would be teleportation, flight, SR, DR, fast healing, extra limbs, etc. Pretty much any time a monster has those, its ECL will be higher than its CR, because those powers are signifantly more useful over the course of an adventurer's carreer than they'd be to a monster who'll be pushing up daisies in under a minute anyway. Except that here we don't have a party system we have a solo fights.. 1 on 1 meaning that the CR !=ECL is broke as a ECL=HD not CR there is also a such a thing as Common Sense.. Common Sense = Something thats lacking on making the charts.. cause with all honestly.. take the CR 5 monster i Rolled and add 7200 in valuables to him.. and see how nuts it can get..
TaggIIV 03-10-07, 11:55 AM	Ah, new character (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5546463&postcount=220) if anyone could check for errors. And a question, can traps be crafted custom like the SRD suggests, where you pick whatever elements you want, or can you only use the sample ones?
hogarth 03-10-07, 11:59 AM	Ah, new character (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5546463&postcount=220) if anyone could check for errors. And a question, can traps be crafted custom like the SRD suggests, where you pick whatever elements you want, or can you only use the sample ones? I believe all traps have to be approved by Caterane. It's not clear, considering that no one has successfully used a trap yet! I tried creating a character with a trap, but he never managed to be the defender in his first two battles, so I gave up.
UserNamer 03-10-07, 12:04 PM	is it possible to add psionic shot/weapon or any other feat when using a dorje?
SauroGrenom 03-10-07, 12:12 PM	is it possible to add psionic shot/weapon or any other feat when using a dorje? Psionic shot will apply to rays. Psionic weapon will apply to touch attacks. Neither apply to targeted spells, only those with attack rolls.
UserNamer 03-10-07, 12:20 PM	Psionic shot will apply to rays. Psionic weapon will apply to touch attacks. Neither apply to targeted spells, only those with attack rolls. Boost construct to a dorje of astral construct?
TheMagister 03-10-07, 12:23 PM	Ah, new character (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5546463&postcount=220) if anyone could check for errors. And a question, can traps be crafted custom like the SRD suggests, where you pick whatever elements you want, or can you only use the sample ones? Looks pretty good. Gonna go with a wand of invisibility down the road? Scrolls won't be a good idea unless you've got some serious help with that UMD. You might consider a wand of shield [CL1 - 750 gp - 5 credits] and ditch that darkwood heavy shield that you'll probably never use. You also might consider some potions of protection from alignment: that +0 will save is gonna eat you alive in the lower ECLs. TM
SauroGrenom 03-10-07, 12:40 PM	Boost construct to a dorje of astral construct? Nope.
Milov 03-10-07, 01:50 PM	Curious, as far as the Astral Constructs that psions can get with the Shaper Power go, do they apply to the ally penalty? Or are they merely power-based creatures even though it states in thier power description that they aren't technically "summoned creatures"?
Tellish_of_Ket 03-10-07, 02:06 PM	I believe all traps have to be approved by Caterane. It's not clear, considering that no one has successfully used a trap yet! I tried creating a character with a trap, but he never managed to be the defender in his first two battles, so I gave up. I have read the traps section thoroughly and i didn't see anything about needing them to be pre-approved. It just says you must follow the trap features listed. I also just created a "trapper" to start this week. Except that i have both a defend package and an attack package. Just remember that traps count against your MaxCA for a fight and affects the xp/gp you get. EVEN if you lose. ToK
hogarth 03-10-07, 02:33 PM	I have read the traps section thoroughly and i didn't see anything about needing them to be pre-approved. It just says you must follow the trap features listed. Cat mentioned it when he was proposing adding traps in the first place. We were throwing out suggestions of annoying custom traps (e.g. Suggestion, Blindness, etc.); Cat said "those'll never get approved, so there's no problem".
SauroGrenom 03-10-07, 03:51 PM	Curious, as far as the Astral Constructs that psions can get with the Shaper Power go, do they apply to the ally penalty? Or are they merely power-based creatures even though it states in thier power description that they aren't technically "summoned creatures"?They don't effect the rewards at all. They are just created allies instead of summoned ones. But they are spell effects and they have short duration.
Milov 03-10-07, 04:13 PM	I see.... Thanks.
MitzaVolchenko 03-10-07, 06:18 PM	They don't effect the rewards at all. They are just created allies instead of summoned ones. But they are spell effects and they have short duration. Certain spells and powers (Planar Ally, Animate Dead, Dominate, Animate Object, etc) or Abilities (Rebuke undead, etc) allow a character to summon, create allies, or control allies. But a 1/rnd per level spell ally does? What about those pesky summoned monsters that are 1 rnd/lvl? Yep, thats right, I'm still harping on this one. I will until this is fixed or ruled on :)
Zevox 03-10-07, 06:21 PM	But a 1/rnd per level spell ally does? What about those pesky summoned monsters that are 1 rnd/lvl? Yep, thats right, I'm still harping on this one. I will until this is fixed or ruled on :) That spell can be made permanent, you know. Thats no doubt what that refers to. I don't think anyone is going to penalize anyone for casting that spell after entering the arena. Zevox
MitzaVolchenko 03-10-07, 06:25 PM	That spell can be made permanent, you know. Thats no doubt what that refers to. I don't think anyone is going to penalize anyone for casting that spell after entering the arena. Zevox If they don't they are breaking a rule. If the intention is that it is only for allies created or summoned for extended periods, then let it reflect that. Edit it to show that. Make it concrete. Summoned critters can't be pre-buffed, they can't be accounted for in the other guy's tactics. I guess I kinda see it as an all or none proposition...or set a solid rule that says 1 rnd/lvl spells don't count.
SauroGrenom 03-10-07, 10:38 PM	If they don't they are breaking a rule. If the intention is that it is only for allies created or summoned for extended periods, then let it reflect that. Edit it to show that. Make it concrete. Summoned critters can't be pre-buffed, they can't be accounted for in the other guy's tactics. I guess I kinda see it as an all or none proposition...or set a solid rule that says 1 rnd/lvl spells don't count."Allies" are are not defined in a concrete manner, but the general consensus is that "allies" for the purpose of reward penalties are those that are permanent or nearly so. Animate object when used in the arena and cast in the arena does not impose an ally penalty. However if made permanent on a "ally" that is brought into the battle, then it imposes a penalty (As Zevox points out). If you need more clear language, then take it up with Cat. He's the only one with authority to edit that section of the rules. I can understand the desire to have a clarification of some kind.
Erithmu 03-10-07, 10:45 PM	{humor} As a side note (since this is the tavern) ... do you have to prebuff the piano you are bringing into the arena to animate. Would seem very appropriate for a bard using expy retreat and having a really bad chase scene. {/humor}
NiQil 03-10-07, 10:49 PM	{humor} As a side note (since this is the tavern) ... do you have to prebuff the piano you are bringing into the arena to animate. Would seem very appropriate for a bard using expy retreat and having a really bad chase scene. {/humor} And if someone happened to substitute a mimic for the piano.....
hogarth 03-10-07, 10:54 PM	If they don't they are breaking a rule. If the intention is that it is only for allies created or summoned for extended periods, then let it reflect that. Edit it to show that. Make it concrete. I think we all agree that it should be clarified in the Rules of Gladius. I wouldn't start holding your breath just yet, though. :D
Tellish_of_Ket 03-11-07, 01:51 AM	Question: If i personally cast a dispel magic into a ring of counterspells, do i have to keep dispel magic crossed off my spell list every fight? Or, after my 3FC, and if it still hasn't been used up, can i now fill something else in that spell slot? I ask this because at IMT time, we reset our counters and will free up a spell slot for something else rather than keeping a dispel magic in my repetoire. ToK
MindWandererB 03-11-07, 03:07 AM	Question: If i personally cast a dispel magic into a ring of counterspells, do i have to keep dispel magic crossed off my spell list every fight? Or, after my 3FC, and if it still hasn't been used up, can i now fill something else in that spell slot? I ask this because at IMT time, we reset our counters and will free up a spell slot for something else rather than keeping a dispel magic in my repetoire. ToK A ring of counterspells is considered a "temporary" prebuff, and must be renewed every cycle. Either it costs you a spell every cycle, or you pay an NPC to do it every cycle.
MysticMonk2005 03-11-07, 03:46 AM	In what context? As an ally? And if so, what kind of ally? ToK as a purchased ally namely a pegasus
Tellish_of_Ket 03-11-07, 03:56 AM	as a purchased ally namely a pegasus Additionally, you can apply the Elite Ability Array to those creatures which doubles their marketprice (and increases the CR by 1) ..or a monster that uses the Elite Ability Array, no matter how it is advanced, you have to pay a flat one-time cost of 5 credits From two sources in CoCo rules...hope that helps. ToK
MysticMonk2005 03-11-07, 04:03 AM	From two sources in CoCo rules...hope that helps. ToK Advanced Monsters: You may spend credits to get the right to acquire advanced monsters, be it a racial HD advancement, or using the Elite Ability Array. The cost is always a flat 5° cost per change. is what leds me to confusion.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-11-07, 04:18 AM	is what leds me to confusion. Welcome to CoCo. :) You'll have to ask someone who's been here longer with those new rules and have seen them put into place more often than I. ToK
MitzaVolchenko 03-11-07, 04:37 AM	Willowmoon (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11071503#post11071503) needs to be looked over. Anyone that has ever had the pleasure of handling one of my characters knows that I miss the silliest things :)
MindWandererB 03-11-07, 04:40 AM	Welcome to CoCo. :) You'll have to ask someone who's been here longer with those new rules and have seen them put into place more often than I. ToK The rules are very poor about what constitutes "advancement." A pegasus with Elite Array costs 5000 gp and is CR +1. Although most of the rules say 6000 (double).
Zevox 03-11-07, 11:37 AM	@ MysticMonk - Purchased allies do not cost credits to advance or use the elite array on unless you're altering them after buying them unadvanced/unelite previously (in which case its the change that is costing credits, and its 5 per change you wish to make). They just cost more money to purchase with those advancements Zevox
Papapeperoni 03-11-07, 12:09 PM	Can you choose Spiked Chain with the War domain or do you need to choose one from the standard deities. Do Half-Giants deal Large unarmed damage? And could anyone please check Bobs for errors? Many thanks and greetings, --Papapeperoni
Rauul 03-11-07, 12:16 PM	Can you choose Spiked Chain with the War domain or do you need to choose one from the standard deities. Do Half-Giants deal Large unarmed damage? And could anyone please check Bobs for errors? Many thanks and greetings, --Papapeperoni 2 things i see off the bat.. Speed of though only works when you have a psionic focus, and monk is lawful and barbarian is chaotic (most take monk first then become ex-monks) they can wield without penaty 1 size larger then they are (so large size) but they are med sized creatures so should do med sized unarmed damage.. As for Dietys.. hehe pick 2 domains and name your own god i guess... since every cleric i have seen has magic/darkness or magic/war.. shrugs.. very few acually follow the gods have specific domains..
Zevox 03-11-07, 12:17 PM	Can you choose Spiked Chain with the War domain or do you need to choose one from the standard deities. Neither. Per the domain description, you can choose any martial weapon. No exotic weapons, just martial. Do Half-Giants deal Large unarmed damage? No. Its not one of the listed benefits of Powerful Build. And could anyone please check Bobs for errors? Nothing wrong that I noticed. Though you won't be able to take any more Monk levels if you keep that True Neutral alignment. Zevox
Hirumajoe 03-11-07, 01:44 PM	Willowmoon (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11071503#post11071503) needs to be looked over. Anyone that has ever had the pleasure of handling one of my characters knows that I miss the silliest things :) Umm... I don't think a Unicorn can drink potions by itself. If you had your leadership ally they could give them to you, but I don't think you have the dexterity to manipulate the 3 Fly potions yourself. You're listing for your skills is a tad confusing, and I think the black number should be 27, not 21, but otherwise it looks like you did that section correct. Possible things to consider in the build itself: I'm wondering if dropping the bought Cha to 16 base from base 18 might be worth it, bumping up Con, Wis and Dex 2 point each. Same net saving throws, but more hp, AC and Psionic Hole goodness. Not sure how good of a long term investment the SR 17 (or 19) is going to be. Given that the high level brackets are opponening up, its quite possible that ammount of SR isn't going to be cutting it as you level up. Its unfortunately not protecting your leadership ally either (who arguably needs it more than you do with your 18+ saves...). Other things to consider: Animated Mithril Heavy Shield. +2 Modifier plus base +1 and Mithril is about ~10,000 gp. For a +3 Shield AC bonus. Because every Paladin needs a Shield. :D As for your ally, have you considered an Elven 5 Ranger/2 Wizard/1 Arcane Archer? Might save you some money on needing magic bows/arrows for him/her. Also has some reasonable base saves: +6/+6/+4 at ECL 8.
MitzaVolchenko 03-11-07, 02:17 PM	Umm... I don't think a Unicorn can drink potions by itself. If you had your leadership ally they could give them to you, but I don't think you have the dexterity to manipulate the 3 Fly potions yourself. My old barrel racer, Flame, begs to differ. He could open the cooler, retrieve a beer, remove its cap, and drink it all by his lonesome. Furthermore, he could undo the snap on his stall latch, open his stall, open the tack stal, then do all of the above without anyone noticing him when he was really on his mettle. He never quite figured out pop top cans and settled for simple squeezing the can until it opened when his mistress was gauche enough to not have proper bottles for him. On the SR...a tenth level caster that is pure caster gets 1d20+10 (perhaps 11 or 12 depending on feats and classes). That will average to half the time completely negating a spell andhte rest of the time the saves still make for half damage. It has an even better effect against the scroll/wand/dorje using crowd where the CL/ML is generally lower. The Charisma is a non-negotiable point given where the character is heading ie. epic feat selection and certain skills that will benefit drastically from it. Now, on cohort, I am less concerned with the cohort's survivability as followers will easily take the trusted lieutenant's place. I am currently looking at either a combo-caster or more likely a ranger tricked out with the archery package. There is a certain part of me that likes the idea of a blaster companion, but I think in the long run, a ranger or possibly druid has more uses. Monk is also under consideration, but the whole lawful thing really doesn't fly with the CG nature of Unicorn/Paladin of Freedom. Another notion that was thrown my way was a Paladin/lancer, though I am not sure of the protocol for adding Paladin of Freedom to a cohort. Straight Paladin would result in too many ugly incidents wherein my cohort gets dumped in a puddle or kicked in the head for being a prude. I have vaguely toyed with other oddball templated cohorts, but again that seems a bit cheesy even considering what I am already putting on the board. Oh sure, cheese is good for wins, but is it really that fun to play? Any road, thanks for the feedback. I am having fun with miss Willowmoon like I did when I created the Firebug...lots of RP and a few nifty tricks to go with it. With three guilds courting her, it may get interesting. CEF is actually tempting just to throw some free-wheeling chaos into their mix, but I fear she'd just end up in duels with her own guildmates. WAR makes a compelling argument given recent RP, but gotta watch how much she knows about the alignment of some of her companions. *shrugs* I'm havng fun building her at the moment, regardless.
TheMagister 03-11-07, 03:04 PM	One of my best background stories ever (and there have been quite a few over the years of roleplaying). I'm just really proud of how it's progressing, and (while I'm not necessarily looking for opinions) I wanted to post it here to share it with those who probably wouldn't look at it otherwise. TM The world is wondrously new to Rubicanti. Or rather, Rubicanti is new to the world. After his rebirth as an Elan, Rubicanti chose to hone his new young body in the martial fighting arts. The result was a blindingly fast meld of hyper-coordination and psionic awareness. This blend of the mental and physical realms of combat and discipline catapulted him to the top of his class in the mysterious Elan society’s training programs. They quickly judged him ready and capable to re-experience the world and released him, more than a decade before they normally would. Too soon. Too soon. Rubicanti's body and mind, no matter how talented and genetically advanced, were nevertheless not yet strong enough to encompass the torrential combination of his past experiences with his new life. Drunk with his success in the Gladius Arena, this serious-appearing young man is slowly spinning out of control. His winnings in the Arena support him lavishly, according him comforts and pleasures counter-productive to the austere and disciplined life of a martial artist. He finds himself drawn irresistibly to the Gladius Ironworks, where the intense pace and flickering dance of the flames seems to wash over his senses like a heady balm. The varied tasks; the shouted communication; the laughter of the workmen – all the confusion controlled and channeled into one direction: the use of flame to destroy and melt; to reform and remake. The process fascinates Rubicanti, and he begs his way into working the smelting pot, stoking the flames and stirring the molten slag as it seperates into iron, brass, and pot metal. The blasts of heat and sound comfort him. The work reduces the confusing world into a small universe of tightly controlled chaos. The destroying power of fire is harnessed and made to create items of beauty…and instruments of death. More and more he finds himself staring into the furnace. Daily he moves closer to the heat, singeing his clothes (but not his flesh!). The dance of the inferno entices him. The shimmering air calls to him softly. The budding psychic power in his mind reaches out hungrily… The Transformation Rubicanti can fight the urge no longer; he longs to be the tool of the flames raging inside his consciousness. The days go by in a masquerade of control, but his dreams are tormented by visions of himself standing in the flames of the furnace at the Ironworks. Finally, he succumbs to his inner demon and sets out for Old Arkhein, one of the poorer sections of Gladius, where a fire would occasion no great concern. He spends some time disguising himself as a street urchin (an easy task, considering his appearance) and, when he reaches the district, spends some time casing the neighborhood. When he lays eyes on the house, his breathing stops with a gasp...it's perfect. Ramshackle, wooden, and solitary in the midst of a dry grass lot, the structure practically begs for immolation. Rubi slips into the undergrowth and squirms on his belly to the side of the shack. He stops when he hears a curious noise from the window of the basement. While he desires the wanton destruction of the wreck, he couldn't abide the thought of killing a person who might be stuck in the house! The unearthly moan sends shivers down his spine, and he takes the time to prepare himself mentally before slipping through the small window acrobatically, landing in perfect balance on the floor in the shadowy cellar. Without warning a cloak-like form detaches itself from the wall near the stairway up and flies across the room toward him, moaning as it comes! The child-monk steels his mind against the creature's numbing song, and strikes out hard, as his training had taught him. However, despite his speed and agility, the cloaker enwrapped him in its clammy confines. Alone, in the dark with that snapping maw questing unseen for his throat, Rubicanti can no longer hold back the inferno within. A fiery doorway in his mind unlocks, and behind it he finds both pain and pleasure; wonder and fear. He lashes out while still confined within the cloaker's embrace and the his punch burns the creature, which flutters back uncertainly. Rubi becomes a blaze of destruction, strafing the creature with smoking punches and kicks. The whole while, a glowing stream of unstable psionic energy is dripping from his right hand, growing into a long stream of liquid and yet coherent fire. Overcome by the assault, the monster drops to the floor, beaten. Rubicanti cannot halt the torrent of emotion, however. Unthinking, he lashes the creatures unresisting form, scorching and burning its lifeless shell over and over again. In his reckless attack, the tongue of flame lights repeatedly on the overhead braces of the wooden structure, and it is not long before the entire first floor is alive with questing flame. The heat is welcome, a release of pent-up frustration and anger for Rubicanti, and he does not stop his mutilation until there is naught left of the cloaker but a blackened crust and two cracked and pitted bone claws. A cracking sound above alerts Rubi a split second before the roof caves in, weakened by the fire. Rubicanti tumbles out of the way, and hisses in pain at the burn left by a flaming splinter on his shoulder. More...there must be more! With the return of reason, the whip of flame winks out of existence, banished back behind the fiery portal in his mind. Rubicanti tries to summon it again, but the lock on this door remains something of a mystery to the young one. He tries again, but is distracted by another rumbling crash as the stairway collapses, totally engulfed. He must flee or die! Rubi shimmies out of the same window he came in, and joins the crowd on the street which has gathered to watch the inferno. Soon he will find the key to the door. Soon, flame would be his to master...his to control. First, the secret of the whip...
TheMagister 03-11-07, 03:06 PM	Re: Willowmoon Gwar: "Ohpleezeohpleezepleezepleeze..." It just fits TOO well. Do we even have any evil characters in WAR? I don't think so... TM
Zevox 03-11-07, 04:33 PM	Re: Willowmoon Gwar: "Ohpleezeohpleezepleezepleeze..." It just fits TOO well. Do we even have any evil characters in WAR? I don't think so... TM Not since Zero and the Horsemen left, no. Lots of neutral and lawful though. Zevox
TheMagister 03-11-07, 04:52 PM	{Whining...it'll pass} Man, I'm having a hard time with Rubicanti here. First the ruling against him in "The Elders of Gladius vs. Rubicanti Stacking Fire Damage on His Fists" and now a hullabulloo on flurrying to deliver touch spells/powers. {shakes head} I'm such a magnet for wierd rules violations... Remember Hood and the Manyshot questions? Sheesh!
Zevox 03-11-07, 04:54 PM	Remember Hood and the Manyshot questions? Sheesh! What was the outcome of those, anyway? I remember alternately rulings in favor of Manyshot + Psionic Shot working on all arrows and rulings against it. Zevox
Hirumajoe 03-11-07, 05:07 PM	My old barrel racer, Flame, begs to differ. He could open the cooler, retrieve a beer, remove its cap, and drink it all by his lonesome. Furthermore, he could undo the snap on his stall latch, open his stall, open the tack stal, then do all of the above without anyone noticing him when he was really on his mettle. He never quite figured out pop top cans and settled for simple squeezing the can until it opened when his mistress was gauche enough to not have proper bottles for him. Fair enough. I stand corrected. Although I still think it'd take a little bit longer than a move and standard action. :) On the SR...a tenth level caster that is pure caster gets 1d20+10 (perhaps 11 or 12 depending on feats and classes). That will average to half the time completely negating a spell andhte rest of the time the saves still make for half damage. It has an even better effect against the scroll/wand/dorje using crowd where the CL/ML is generally lower. True, I wasn't considering the Gish and item angles, which are in generally going to be much lower. However, I think you're rounding a bit much. A straight wizard at ECL 10 is 1d20+10. He needs to roll a 17 or higher. He fails on a 6 or less on a d20, which is only a 30% chance of failure. Which in my book is significantly less than half the time. If we start throwing in feats and consider getting up to ECL 13 say, that becomes 1d20+15 and only a 10% chance of success. 20% for the maximum 19 SR from armor. Its certainly not useless as your examples have pointed out. However, against straight casters isn't not going to be as good as you might like. Then again, you've got so many layers of spell defense I suppose there's some synergy going on there. If the SR doesn't catch your saves probably will. Or vice versa. The Charisma is a non-negotiable point given where the character is heading ie. epic feat selection and certain skills that will benefit drastically from it. I hear ya. *shrugs* I'm havng fun building her at the moment, regardless. It looks like fun. :D
TheMagister 03-11-07, 05:07 PM	I'm girding my loins for another go-round. That discussion was too many moons ago, and people change their minds based on how well a character is doing based on an interest in maintaining balance. Nobody will believe me, but: "Manyshot is a single attack. If you expend your focus for Psionic Shot, you get a single instance of +2d6 damage added to the attack, not +2d6 per arrow fired." "Since manyshot is a single attack, a character could expend his focus for Fell Shot to make all arrows involved in a manyshot strike as a touch attack." [Agreed for the same reason as Psionic Shot] "Deepcrystal says that bows and crossbows charged with 2pp bestow the +2d6 extra damage on their ammunition, but we think that's too powerful when used in conjunction with manyshot. We'll allow you to spend 2pp per arrow fired to increase the damage by +2d6 once for each arrow in the manyshot." [That's just the fear talkin'. I [i]hate this ruling.] "Since Greater Manyshot is NOT specifically limited to one attack roll, it requires the expenditure of a focus for each and every arrow that the character wishes to benefit from Fell Shot and/or Psionic Shot." [I think this is crap. It's still one attack, just with multiple attack rolls.] "Since Greater Manyshot is NOT specifically limited to one attack roll, powers like Offensive Prescience apply to each arrow seperately. Conversely, a manyshot can only gain the benefit of Offensive Prescience once per arrow."[/color] [Agreed. The two attacks (greater and regular) are supposed to be identical, with the ONE exception that greater manyshot allows each arrow to crit. It effectively makes a manyshot "not a volley". My original plan for Hood was Fighter4/Psywar6 so I could get wpn spec (longbow) and off prescience together. I liked the idea of a +8 minimum damage to my greater manyshot. Turns out Psywar 7 gets me weapon of energy, and the +3.5 pts of damage ekes out a win over the wpn spec.] That's where I remember things standing. I fully expect an armed uprising when Hood hits level 10, though.
Zevox 03-11-07, 05:13 PM	Um, sorry TM, but that was a tad confusing there. Whats the current ruling? Does the combo work or not?? Zevox
MindWandererB 03-11-07, 05:20 PM	Um, sorry TM, but that was a tad confusing there. Whats the current ruling? Does the combo work or not?? Zevox Basically, no. Psionic Weapon and deepcrystal add their damage to one arrow only. Fell Shot works once per attack roll. Anything that affects multiple attacks made within a certain period of time applies to each arrow (for damage) or to each attack roll (for attack bonuses).
TheMagister 03-11-07, 05:27 PM	Um, sorry TM, but that was a tad confusing there. Whats the current ruling? Does the combo work or not?? Zevox That's the thing. There wasn't a ruling. There was a kind of "we'll deal with it later for real, but for now this will suffice" kind of thing. Currently, if Hood had manyshot, the deadliest he could get would be: Expend focus1 (fell shot) and focus2 (greater psionic shot). Pay 4pp for +2d6*2 deepcrystal damage. Have Offensive Prescience [ML4] up (worth +3 damage). Have two +1 seeking arrows buffed with dissolving weapon (worth +4d6*2 damage). Total using a +1 Mighty (+2) Deepcrystal Composite Longbow: 2d8+4d6(GPS)+4d6(DC)+8d6(acid)+2d4(psych okinetic)+3(offpres)+6(enh+str)+1(PBS). Total: 2d8+16d6+2d4+10 as a ranged touch. Total Cost: 2 foci, 14 pp [4(dc)+4(offpres)+6(dissweap)]. Which isn't a mosquito bite any way you look at it, but it's pretty convoluted (who has time to buff that much dissolving weapon?). With greater manyshot the minimum damage goes up a little (you can gain off pres. and PBS on each arrow), but not much.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-11-07, 05:30 PM	Wind wall....booyah! ToK
TheMagister 03-11-07, 05:32 PM	Pegasus! booyaback!
Zevox 03-11-07, 05:45 PM	Pegasus! booyaback! Readied action my friend, readied action. Why take the risk of having the wall gone around when you don't have to? Speaking of which, mayhaps I should consider getting Eraca that spell and making some scrolls of it for the Iron Man, since she doesn't get enough free crafting time to bump her gloves of dex to +4. Hm... Zevox
TheMagister 03-11-07, 05:47 PM	Readied action my friend, readied action. Why take the risk of having the wall gone around when you don't have to? Speaking of which, mayhaps I should consider getting Eraca that spell and making some scrolls of it for the Iron Man, since she doesn't get enough free crafting time to bump her gloves of dex to +4. Hm... Zevox Yeah, that'd do it.
Hirumajoe 03-11-07, 05:55 PM	Yeah, that'd do it. Carry some sling stones and a sling. They have only a 30% miss chance from a wind wall. Also, my personal favorite when your opponent readies an action for when you make a ranged attack: Charge into melee. :D Other options include hiding and shooting, since they'll need to make the spot/listen checks to actually react fast enough.
Zevox 03-11-07, 06:08 PM	Other options include hiding and shooting, since they'll need to make the spot/listen checks to actually react fast enough. Heh, with my wizard, thats not an issue. +20 spot and +14 listen. And in TM's case, Hood can't hide or move silently worth a damn anyway :D . Zevox
TheMagister 03-11-07, 06:08 PM	Nope. It's hard to hide a howitzer.
Zevox 03-11-07, 06:30 PM	@ 'Rith - Just noticed this in Solan's mission - did you give that Dragon an augmented Tattoo of Expansion? Those aren't normally legal items, since our rules say tattoos need to be minimum ML. You sure thats allowed? Zevox
Erithmu 03-11-07, 06:35 PM	@ 'Rith - Just noticed this in Solan's mission - did you give that Dragon an augmented Tattoo of Expansion? Those aren't normally legal items, since our rules say tattoos need to be minimum ML. You sure thats allowed? ZevoxYes I did, and I think you might be right. EDIT: Fixed
Vathelokai 03-11-07, 06:39 PM	My old barrel racer, Flame, begs to differ. He could open the cooler, retrieve a beer, remove its cap, and drink it all by his lonesome. Furthermore, he could undo the snap on his stall latch, open his stall, open the tack stal, then do all of the above without anyone noticing him when he was really on his mettle. He never quite figured out pop top cans and settled for simple squeezing the can until it opened when his mistress was gauche enough to not have proper bottles for him. ... *shrugs* I'm havng fun building her at the moment, regardless. Gonbow had a Krenshar by the name of Lortavos back in the day who used a 'hand of the mage' to get his potions. Although I've seen plenty of animals do such things, reality is always taking a back seat here; though I don't believe there is an official rule against it yet.
Vathelokai 03-11-07, 06:45 PM	Speaking of augmented tattoos; you can get them with credits right? I put a request in the blackmarket, but couldn't find a specific passage for the credit cost. (of ml3 augmented for durration versions.)
Zevox 03-11-07, 06:48 PM	Speaking of augmented tattoos; you can get them with credits right? I put a request in the blackmarket, but couldn't find a specific passage for the cost. (of ml3 augmented for durration versions.) I'd think you could. To be honest, I've never actually tried to track down such a rule, since I prefer not to spend credits on one-use items. Zevox
SauroGrenom 03-11-07, 07:32 PM	Gonbow had a Krenshar by the name of Lortavos back in the day who used a 'hand of the mage' to get his potions. Although I've seen plenty of animals do such things, reality is always taking a back seat here; though I don't believe there is an official rule against it yet.There's a rules of the game article (one of the ones about familiars) that says creatures w/o hands will need someone to feed them a potion or atleast poor it into a container they can drink from.
sonofzeal 03-11-07, 08:07 PM	Can anyone look over the mercenary I just posted here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11736580&postcount=51) for correctness and validity of concept? Anything I could do to optimize him a bit better?
Tellish_of_Ket 03-11-07, 11:35 PM	Ok, i've searched the rules section a few times, and can't find the transparency rules. If someone has a link or just wanna answer a few questions, by all means. psicraft/spellcraft dispel psionics/dispel magic psiresistance/spell resistance What is the transparency between them? Reason i ask is because there are a lot of psionic characters in IMT and i've been reading a few fights, and it's not clear. The tactics are written with FULL transparency. Dispel Psionics will dispel arcane buffs on an individual and such. Also tactics including contingencies if player A is casting a certain spell, but that player B only psicraft. Any assistance helping with this transparency issue? ToK **EDIT... Thx Sauro.
SauroGrenom 03-11-07, 11:42 PM	Psionics-Magic Transparency: Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics. When the rule about psionics-magic transparency is in effect, it has the following ramifications. Spell resistance is effective against powers, using the same mechanics. Likewise, power resistance is effective against spells, using the same mechanics as spell resistance. If a creature has one kind of resistance, it is assumed to have the other. (The effects have similar ends despite having been brought about by different means.) All spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa. The spell detect magic detects powers, their number, and their strength and location within 3 rounds (though a Psicraft check is necessary to identify the discipline of the psionic aura). Dead magic areas are also dead psionics areas.
Zevox 03-11-07, 11:46 PM	Just to add to what Sauro said, Psicraft and Spellcraft do not work with both via the transparency. If you found tactics which indicate what you said, they likely were either mistaken, or were simply metagaming that the character would recognize the effect by some visible sign. The latter happens fairly often. Zevox
Tellish_of_Ket 03-12-07, 01:11 AM	Just to add to what Sauro said, Psicraft and Spellcraft do not work with both via the transparency. If you found tactics which indicate what you said, they likely were either mistaken, or were simply metagaming that the character would recognize the effect by some visible sign. The latter happens fairly often. Zevox Yup, i have found a few fights. Tactics clearly indicated to recognize something from his/her opponent that he could not have because he only had psicraft. And the pitlord allowed it as well. So, this is a VERY grey issue, and seems like it's up to individual pitlord interpretation. ToK
Zevox 03-12-07, 01:16 AM	Yup, i have found a few fights. Tactics clearly indicated to recognize something from his/her opponent that he could not have because he only had psicraft. And the pitlord allowed it as well. So, this is a VERY grey issue, and seems like it's up to individual pitlord interpretation. ToK Whether spellcraft/psicraft are affected by the transparency isn't up to interpretation - aside from the fact that the transparency rules in the SRD don't include it, our own section of rules includes that fact in the skill section. Whether they can recognize different effects visually without spell/psicraft, yes, thats definitely a gray area interpretation issue. Zevox
MitzaVolchenko 03-12-07, 03:35 AM	There's a rules of the game article (one of the ones about familiars) that says creatures w/o hands will need someone to feed them a potion or atleast poor it into a container they can drink from. That leaves "container they can drink from" as the point of debate. I can tell you unequivocally that equines can and will drink from bottles. Flame was the one that loved beer, but Joshua (my baby brother the mule) gets gatorade from bottles on endurance drives, as have all of my endurance horses. My last eventer was partial to Clearly Canadian blackberry water...and yes straight from the bottle. My old Paso Fino was a hose only kinda horse, but he'd turn it on and operate the spray nozzle for himself if allowed. Now give any of them the intelligence score that Willowmoon has, and voila! not a hard thing to do.
Rauul 03-12-07, 09:07 AM	Core rules... Page 229 DMG Saids "any Corporeal charater can Imbue a potion" Nothing about being feed a Potion... Now to take it one step Forward.. In one of the books gives alternate "Forms of Potions" IE Friuit that are potions.. ever seen a Horse eat an apple? or a Sugar cube?.. (proably none core but was one of the very few none core i found to acually be usefull)
hogarth 03-12-07, 09:22 AM	That leaves "container they can drink from" as the point of debate. I can tell you unequivocally that equines can and will drink from bottles. Flame was the one that loved beer, but Joshua (my baby brother the mule) gets gatorade from bottles on endurance drives, as have all of my endurance horses. My last eventer was partial to Clearly Canadian blackberry water...and yes straight from the bottle. My old Paso Fino was a hose only kinda horse, but he'd turn it on and operate the spray nozzle for himself if allowed. Now give any of them the intelligence score that Willowmoon has, and voila! not a hard thing to do. Personally, I wish we had some overall guidelines (not necessarily hard and fast rules) on what intelligent non-humanoid creatures can and can't do. If a unicorn can rummage through a pack, dig out a potion, and drink it in under six seconds, then why can't an intelligent bird like a giant owl or a hawk raven familiar point a wand in someone's general direction? ## ######## #### ~~~ --##-- ******** O_O - "Ouch!" #### ^ ^ | | bird some guy holding wand
waywreth 03-12-07, 09:31 AM	Two quick questions which I think I know, but want to be sure: 1. If a character crafts using his skill (and under 1000gp of worth) week 1 of the 3FC, do they get to use the items for weeks 2 and 3? 2. Regarding the expendable cap - is it based on the price the character paid (1/2 if crafted) or the market value? Thanks,
Vathelokai 03-12-07, 09:42 AM	Two quick questions which I think I know, but want to be sure: 1. If a character crafts using his skill (and under 1000gp of worth) week 1 of the 3FC, do they get to use the items for weeks 2 and 3? 2. Regarding the expendable cap - is it based on the price the character paid (1/2 if crafted) or the market value? Thanks, 1: they get the items at the end of the cycle. 2: the price the character paid (so that taking craft feats is not worthless)
MitzaVolchenko 03-12-07, 10:00 AM	Personally, I wish we had some overall guidelines (not necessarily hard and fast rules) on what intelligent non-humanoid creatures can and can't do. If a unicorn can rummage through a pack, dig out a potion, and drink it in under six seconds, then why can't an intelligent bird like a giant owl or a hawk familiar point a wand in someone's general direction? ## ######## #### ~~~ --##-- ******** O_O - "Ouch!" #### ^ ^ | | bird some guy holding wand Birds can't use spell completion items (nor can any other animal or familiar) unless they have tha ability tospeak. Speak with master does not count. Welcome to the RotG articles regarding familiars. The RotG article is vague on potions but says if they can manipulate it on their own, they can use it.
hogarth 03-12-07, 10:06 AM	Birds can't use spell completion items (nor can any other animal or familiar) unless they have tha ability tospeak. Speak with master does not count. My example of a hawk familiar using a wand was misleading, but: a) Raven familiars can speak and so could theoretically activate a wand with ranks in Use Magic Device. b) Any familiar with ranks in Use Psionic Device could theoretically use a dorje (which require a "command thought", not a "command word"). I previously asked about a hawk familiar using a dorje with UPD -- no one seemed to keen on the idea. McJarvis had a similar idea about a raven familiar with UMD.
MitzaVolchenko 03-12-07, 10:21 AM	My example of a hawk familiar using a wand was misleading, but: a) Raven familiars can speak and so could theoretically activate a wand with ranks in Use Magic Device. b) Any familiar with ranks in Use Psionic Device could theoretically use a dorje (which require a "command thought", not a "command word"). I previously asked about a hawk familiar using a dorje with UPD -- no one seemed to keen on the idea. McJarvis had a similar idea about a raven familiar with UMD. It is possible...not practical, but possible. When a bard has trouble getting UMD to work, I can't see a bird having much luck.
SauroGrenom 03-12-07, 10:27 AM	That leaves "container they can drink from" as the point of debate. I can tell you unequivocally that equines can and will drink from bottles. Flame was the one that loved beer, but Joshua (my baby brother the mule) gets gatorade from bottles on endurance drives, as have all of my endurance horses. My last eventer was partial to Clearly Canadian blackberry water...and yes straight from the bottle. My old Paso Fino was a hose only kinda horse, but he'd turn it on and operate the spray nozzle for himself if allowed. Now give any of them the intelligence score that Willowmoon has, and voila! not a hard thing to do.That's all very interesting. I wonder if any of these equines could retrieve a bottle from a pack in less than 3 seconds (a move action), and if so could they get it open and consumed in under 3 seconds (a standard action). In any case, there are semi-official rules sources that say that animals cannot feed potions to themselves (with the exception of monkeys). If you want to plead your case, I suggest you take it to the courtroom. Doing anything else runs the risk of having a disagreement in the middle of a fight (mostly to do with the ability to retrieve the potion and what action it takes to "feed" it to an animal).
hogarth 03-12-07, 10:32 AM	It is possible...not practical, but possible. When a bard has trouble getting UMD to work, I can't see a bird having much luck. I didn't say it would be practical, but a familiar doing something (and possibly failing) is still better than a familiar doing nothing, IMO. But MWB, Erithmu and others specifically said it would be physically impossible, so don't expect much sympathy for potion-drinking equines. Just my $0.02.
MitzaVolchenko 03-12-07, 10:38 AM	I didn't say it would be practical, but a familiar doing something (and possibly failing) is still better than a familiar doing nothing, IMO. But MWB, Erithmu and others specifically said it would be physically impossible, so don't expect much sympathy for potion-drinking equines. Just my $0.02. I'll be happy to provide video footage as needed :P
TheMagister 03-12-07, 10:48 AM	YouTube it and give a link! Whether or not we implement it is immaterial. I'd like to see such a thing yea or neigh. (Ok. BAD pun.) TM
hogarth 03-12-07, 11:00 AM	I'll be happy to provide video footage as needed :P Seeing (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11550560&postcount=765) is not necessarily believing (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11550993&postcount=768). ;)
Abyssal Stalker 03-12-07, 11:00 AM	Apparently Mssr. Hood's "great renown" -tag is all because of Bob: He (?) is getting a lot of fans! :)
Tellish_of_Ket 03-12-07, 11:09 AM	I didn't say it would be practical, but a familiar doing something (and possibly failing) is still better than a familiar doing nothing, IMO. But MWB, Erithmu and others specifically said it would be physically impossible, so don't expect much sympathy for potion-drinking equines. Just my $0.02. Then just chew on the glass to get the liquid out. Grab the potion bottle in your mouth, tilt upright, and chew. No rule against eating glass. The Nimbus will save your **** afterwards. ToK
TelinArtho 03-12-07, 11:31 AM	Normally, if you have an ally on your sheet, you can designate some of your equipment to be given to that ally. Is it permissible to note as a prebuff that certain equipment is given to an ally not on your sheet (mercenaries)? For instance, my as-yet unposted bard has a quiver of silver arrows and a quiver of cold iron arrows and a tanglefoot bag that he wants to give to his hired merc by default. What about a suit of armor for that merc? Can I prebuff to have him/her equip it by default?
Tellish_of_Ket 03-12-07, 11:33 AM	Normally, if you have an ally on your sheet, you can designate some of your equipment to be given to that ally. Is it permissible to note as a prebuff that certain equipment is given to an ally not on your sheet (mercenaries)? For instance, my as-yet unposted bard has a quiver of silver arrows and a quiver of cold iron arrows and a tanglefoot bag that he wants to give to his hired merc by default. What about a suit of armor for that merc? Can I prebuff to have him/her equip it by default? I would say yes. There isn't any rule against it. If you are hiring a Merc, i would allow you to prebuff equipment to your hired merc. ToK
TelinArtho 03-12-07, 11:38 AM	Not that I count for much, but I think that change is a worthy idea. I'd generate a few mercs and offer them, but the current status quo would have to break on that score for it to be worth the time. Just for the record, I got word back from Cat that he'll be adding more mercs in the coming weeks. You still have to design mercs that would be approved - so make sure they are polished and solid - but otherwise, there should be nothing holding you back.
hogarth 03-12-07, 12:25 PM	Redirected from the Prison thread... @ Hogarth - Neither Annalina's nor Istima's dorjes are augmented, thus their cost is not increased. They're just at a higher ML for longer duration. Thus no violations. That sounds plausible, but read the following quote: "Alternatively, if you want to have a higher manifester level in the dorje, you must pay for the dorje as if the power was one level higher for each additional two manifester levels you want." That seems to indicate that it is, in fact, more expensive (even though you don't get an augmenting benefit). I have no idea what the word "Alternatively" is supposed to mean in this context, though.
TelinArtho 03-12-07, 12:35 PM	I would agree with Zevox's statement. If it isn't augmented, then the dorje at a higher ML should just be based on the PL of the original power. And for the record, I agree that the wording is odd and confusing...
hogarth 03-12-07, 12:48 PM	I would agree with Zevox's statement. If it isn't augmented, then the dorje at a higher ML should just be based on the PL of the original power. Like I said, it sounds reasonable but here are the applicable parts of the rules: Dorjes are normally created at the minimum manifester level required to manifest the power, and powers that can be augmented are not augmented when stored in a dorje. A dorje’s wielder cannot augment the power contained within the dorje. However, dorjes can be created at a higher manifester level than required to manifest the power. In this case, the dorje that holds an augmentable power is augmented, to the limit of the manifester level and the power’s augmentation maximums, if any. If an augmentable power is incorporated into a dorje at a higher manifester level than the minimum level required to manifest the power, each discharge of the power from the dorje is augmented to the limit of that higher manifester level. Alternatively, if you want to have a higher manifester level in the dorje, you must pay for the dorje as if the power was one level higher for each additional two manifester levels you want. For example, energy missile is a 2nd-level kineticist power with a minimum manifester level of 3rd. If you wanted to make a dorje of energy missile with a manifester level of 8th (five higher than the minimum), you would pay for the creation of the dorje as if energy missile was a 5th-level power. Are Force Screen and Offensive Prescience augmentable powers? Yes. So they must be augmented to the maximum possible for that manifester level (in this case, not augmented at all). Since these powers are augmented to the maximum, the underlying powers cost more. The wording (the blue sentence in the above quote) looks pretty ironclad -- there's no option for just having a higher manifester level of an augmentable power without paying for a higher power level that I can see. I'd be glad to see proof otherwise, though.
TheMagister 03-12-07, 01:12 PM	Apparently Mssr. Hood's "great renown" -tag is all because of Bob: He (?) is getting a lot of fans! :) He gives Hood an inferiority complex. It's that rock-hard physique.
TheMagister 03-12-07, 01:15 PM	Like I said, it sounds reasonable but here are the applicable parts of the rules: Are Force Screen and Offensive Prescience augmentable powers? Yes. So they must be augmented to the maximum possible for that manifester level (in this case, not augmented at all). Since these powers are augmented to the maximum, the underlying powers cost more. The wording looks pretty ironclad -- there's no option for just having a higher manifester level without paying for a higher-level power that I can see. I'd be glad to see proof otherwise, though. Yeah. Rubicanti took a ~5000 gp hit when I discovered that I'd underpaid for his two dorjes via a conversation about this very same thing a week ago. Rubi already payed the difference for his: Offensive Precognition: 1st level power. ML4 = augmented by 3 = treat as a 2nd 3rd!! level power. 2 3 [pl] x 4 [ML] = 8*750 = 6000 9000 gp. Edit: Oh, I see...hmmm... TM
waywreth 03-12-07, 01:30 PM	1: they get the items at the end of the cycle. 2: the price the character paid (so that taking craft feats is not worthless) Glad I asked, I had both of those wrong. Thank you for responding. Looks like I'm going to craft out of cycle then.
TheMagister 03-12-07, 01:32 PM	Yeah. Rubicanti took a ~5000 gp hit when I discovered that I'd underpaid for his two dorjes via a conversation about this very same thing a week ago. Rubi already paid the difference for his: Offensive Precognition: 1st level power. ML4 = augmented by 3 = treat as a 2nd 3rd!! level power. 2 3 [pl] x 4 [ML] = 8*750 = 6000 9000 gp. Edit: Oh, I see...hmmm... TM You know, now that I start looking at it, that makes no sense. A 4th level manifester can't spend the 5pp it would take to manifest a 3rd level power. I'm not arguing that it doesn't say what it says, mind you. I'm just saying that it makes no sense. Rounding down makes the equations fit. "For every two ML above the minimum required to manifest the power..." would fix it, except for the example they give.
hogarth 03-12-07, 01:36 PM	You know, now that I start looking at it, that makes no sense. A 4th level manifester can't spend the 5pp it would take to manifest a 3rd level power. I'm not arguing that it doesn't say what it says, mind you. I'm just saying that it makes no sense. Personally, I agree that the errata could use an erratum. But the example really seems to imply that you round up.
Erithmu 03-12-07, 01:48 PM	How does mounted combat work relative to touch attack spells: Ex: Scorching ray vs mount .. does the ride check become the 'touch AC'?
SauroGrenom 03-12-07, 01:53 PM	How does mounted combat work relative to touch attack spells: Ex: Scorching ray vs mount .. does the ride check become the 'touch AC'? As far as I understand it, that is correct.
TheMagister 03-12-07, 02:00 PM	Don't you think you'd deduct the mount's natural armor and armor boni from the ride check result as normal for a touch attack?
SauroGrenom 03-12-07, 02:06 PM	Don't you think you'd deduct the mount's natural armor and armor boni from the ride check result as normal for a touch attack?No. That just makes it worthless to put your mount in armor. The armor bonus would effectively be a penalty on your ride check. That doesn't sound right to me. Besides there's nothing in the rules about that.
Erithmu 03-12-07, 02:10 PM	Didn't make much of a difference, I went with the full attack ... thats gonna leave a mark.
hogarth 03-12-07, 02:12 PM	Don't you think you'd deduct the mount's natural armor and armor boni from the ride check result as normal for a touch attack? The wording in the feat is pretty clear: "The hit is negated if your Ride check result is greater than the opponent's attack roll." It doesn't seem to discriminate between ranged touch attacks and other attacks. The next sentence says it's essentially like replacing the mount's Armor Class; in this case it would be essentially like replacing the mount's touch Armor Class.
templer10 03-12-07, 05:23 PM	ai have a question about a possible charcter idie - when you make a cleric with the wardomain you gain martial weapon proficency + weapon focus with the deityi's favored weapon, cant it be any weapon? if not any way to get longbow?
TheMagister 03-12-07, 05:26 PM	Certainly you can pick longbow. The cleric archer is a really good concept (especially with the Complete Books ). Regarding the CoCo, you can invent a god with the War domain and pick his favored weapon. ... Isn't Corellian Larethian's favored weapon the longbow? [i]Edit: And of course an elf cleric gets the martial weapon prof: longbow as a racial bonus feat, but that doesn't get you the Weapon Focus feat.
Rauul 03-12-07, 05:29 PM	Certainly you can pick longbow. The cleric archer is a really good concept (especially with the Complete Books ). Regarding the CoCo, you can invent a god with the War domain and pick his favored weapon. ... Isn't Corellian Larethian's favored weapon the longbow? [i]Edit: And of course an elf cleric gets the martial weapon prof: longbow as a racial bonus feat, but that doesn't get you the Weapon Focus feat. Please don't get me started on the CoCo rules for creating your own God... D&D has core rules about gods and domains and weapons of Said Gods.. then they threw in Darkness and the Divine rules on the SRD and what do you have... no an acually mythos or anything that looks like a mythos.. a clusterpuck is the closest example of the Coco mythos of Gods..
templer10 03-12-07, 05:30 PM	Certainly you can pick longbow. The cleric archer is a really good concept (especially with the Complete Books ). Regarding the CoCo, you can invent a god with the War domain and pick his favored weapon. ... Isn't Corellian Larethian's favored weapon the longbow? [i]Edit: And of course an elf cleric gets the martial weapon prof: longbow as a racial bonus feat, but that doesn't get you the Weapon Focus feat. corellian - it's both longbow and longsword in diffrent parts of the PHB and iam thinking of a wierd combo char then a cleric, btw- if u want to start beyond ECL 3 - you mention it in the blackmarket and it get you deducted the credit cost?
Erithmu 03-12-07, 05:36 PM	corellian - it's both longbow and longsword in diffrent parts of the PHB and iam thinking of a wierd combo char then a cleric, btw- if u want to start beyond ECL 3 - you mention it in the blackmarket and it get you deducted the credit cost? No when you PM Pitlords to add the character to the roster it gets deducted.
TelinArtho 03-12-07, 05:38 PM	I don't know Rauul - in my games I have always encouraged my players to create their own gods to work from. The only complaint I have is the sheer number of Magic domain clerics, but I can certainly understand it in this environment. Of course, its not as rampant as one might think - and as for the darkness domain, there's only 2 clerics with that domain on the active list, and both of those, in my opinion, can be explained in the description of the gods had they been explained. My personal gripe about the domains that are used is the lack of description of the faith to which the character belongs. I did a survey and found that only 8 of the active clerics list the name of their god (of which, 2 are fully defined faiths - Denth, Grantis). I personally would like to see a paragraph description for each of the faiths that are present within Gladius. (I did a survey just this morning of the domains that people have used and it was enlightening... it will be out in the next issue of the newspaper...)
Rauul 03-12-07, 05:53 PM	I don't know Rauul - in my games I have always encouraged my players to create their own gods to work from. The only complaint I have is the sheer number of Magic domain clerics, but I can certainly understand it in this environment. Of course, its not as rampant as one might think - and as for the darkness domain, there's only 2 clerics with that domain on the active list, and both of those, in my opinion, can be explained in the description of the gods had they been explained. My personal gripe about the domains that are used is the lack of description of the faith to which the character belongs. I did a survey and found that only 8 of the active clerics list the name of their god (of which, 2 are fully defined faiths - Denth, Grantis). I personally would like to see a paragraph description for each of the faiths that are present within Gladius. (I did a survey just this morning of the domains that people have used and it was enlightening... it will be out in the next issue of the newspaper...) Add Vecna to the List... Rauul Darkstar is a Cleric of Vecna and has had the magic Domain since creation... my only problem was that i had no clue about "use magic items and scrolls of a mage" as you can read in my first 5 fights.. and since finding that and using them it hasn't helped Him any!!!! Just don't be Surprised when a Cult of Vecna starts up in a Temple near you!
TelinArtho 03-12-07, 05:56 PM	Vecna is on that list. I don't include it as a "fully defined faith" since it isn't something that I have access to with the SRD. I probably should've mentioned that. For what its worth, here's the named Faiths that are used: Vecna (Rauul) Grantis (TelinArtho) Emmantiensien (MWB) Denth (TelinArtho) The Red Knight (Zevox) Boccob (Vathelokai) Zevox also includes faith indications on most of his other characters. I didn't include them in the list above unless there was at least one character who had priest levels. Some other characters also listed religions, but didn't have cleric levels either.
TelinArtho 03-12-07, 05:58 PM	How many hands do you need to make use of Perform in combat? For instance, if my character took Perform (Wind Instruments), would there be an uproar about him performing with the wind instrument in one hand and a weapon in the other? (And yes, I know I could take Perform (Singing) and eliminate the need for hands... but then I don't get the nifty Pipes of Pain later on...)
Rauul 03-12-07, 05:59 PM	Vecna is on that list. I don't include it as a "fully defined faith" since it isn't something that I have access to with the SRD. I probably should've mentioned that. For what its worth, here's the named Faiths that are used: Vecna (Rauul) Grantis (TelinArtho) Emmantiensien (MWB) Denth (TelinArtho) The Red Knight (Zevox) Boccob (Vathelokai) Zevox also includes faith indications on most of his other characters. I didn't include them in the list above unless there was at least one character who had priest levels. Some other characters also listed religions, but didn't have cleric levels either. the SRD would have a problem putting Vecna religion on it.. simular to the problem it has with mind flayers and the Gith's and beholders as monsters...
TelinArtho 03-12-07, 06:07 PM	Oh I'm fully aware of that. This is also the reason why I encourage people to make up their own religions. I just also request that they put some thought behind it as well (as in some mention of what is expected of the priests, common themes, etc and at a bare minimum, the domains and favored weapon).
Rauul 03-12-07, 06:15 PM	Oh I'm fully aware of that. This is also the reason why I encourage people to make up their own religions. I just also request that they put some thought behind it as well (as in some mention of what is expected of the priests, common themes, etc and at a bare minimum, the domains and favored weapon). Well when they tell me i can't use Vecna on the Boards i will use the "Maimed Lord" or the "Lich Lord" or the "Cult of the Hand and Eye" but either way... Vecna is and has been my favorate of the D&D evil gods since they made him a diety... :)
Rauul 03-12-07, 06:17 PM	How many hands do you need to make use of Perform in combat? For instance, if my character took Perform (Wind Instruments), would there be an uproar about him performing with the wind instrument in one hand and a weapon in the other? (And yes, I know I could take Perform (Singing) and eliminate the need for hands... but then I don't get the nifty Pipes of Pain later on...) Acually most of all wind instrments are 2 handed... But for a few hundred GP you to can have a Mage hand at will... and it can and will do as you mentally direct it to do... Now that would be a show!!
sonofzeal 03-12-07, 06:38 PM	(repost) Can anyone look over the mercenary I just posted here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11736580&postcount=51) for correctness and validity of concept? Anything I could do to optimize him a bit better? I haven't made or used a merc before, so feedback would be nice. Is the concept valid? Would he be useable in an actual fight? Is there a better investment than that Cloak of Resistance?
False_Keraptis 03-12-07, 06:51 PM	For what its worth, here's the named Faiths that are used: Vecna (Rauul) Grantis (TelinArtho) Emmantiensien (MWB) Denth (TelinArtho) The Red Knight (Zevox) Boccob (Vathelokai) Oy! Don't forget Fornaldbrok! My cleric Gundmir Guldesdep worships him. Admittedly, it's kind of hidden in the "background" sblock, and the description of the god is less than skeletal, but I did name him. Hmm, this discussion may have inspired me to add a block of text about Gundmir's faith.
Zevox 03-12-07, 07:02 PM	I personally would like to see a paragraph description for each of the faiths that are present within Gladius. Heh, that might be a bit hard with me around, considering virtually every character I make worships a different FR God. Quick summary of Gods my characters have worshiped: Azuth (Aldyr Starras [retired]) Oghma (Istima Telarc and Mindrel Starmaster) Ilmater (Sir Alboreth [retired]) Shar (Indrithia Celeth [retired]) Beshaba (Annalina Vale) The Red Knight (Featylec Elendi and Ceilia Durrol) Siamorphe (Mithos Durrol, though this is a lie he tells the public) Gargauth (Mithos Durrol) Talos (Destra Stormwind [retired]) Fenmarel Mestarine (Eraca Moralta) Dispater (Arden Tarmik, though hes technically an Archdevil, not a God) Asran is my only non-religious character, and thats because hes a special case, being the son of an Archdevil who hopes to become one himself and all. I'm just too used to the Forgotten Realms, where the number of folks who aren't religious is almost nil, to not specify a faith for my characters. Not to mention I'm quite religious myself, so it comes rather automatically to me. I still regret switching Ceilia so she uses a Domain the Red Knight doesn't actually give, but I just can't see her getting much use out of the Law or Nobility domains. Meh, at least Protection is fairly in-theme. And I'm quite proud that shes one of our only non-magic domain Clerics, and is still undefeated at level 7 :D . Zevox
Zevox 03-12-07, 07:07 PM	Like I said, it sounds reasonable but here are the applicable parts of the rules: Are Force Screen and Offensive Prescience augmentable powers? Yes. So they must be augmented to the maximum possible for that manifester level (in this case, not augmented at all). Since these powers are augmented to the maximum, the underlying powers cost more. The wording (the blue sentence in the above quote) looks pretty ironclad -- there's no option for just having a higher manifester level of an augmentable power without paying for a higher power level that I can see. I'd be glad to see proof otherwise, though. Bleh, I can't believe you're arguing for that interpretation of this. It seems pretty clear to me that this isn't the intention, especially considering it only talks about the PL increase in the context of augmenting the power. Mayhaps we should take this to the courtroom for an Elder decision (edit: after the current discussion is done, so the two don't get lost among each other), since it seems no one agrees with you on this. Zevox
McJarvis 03-12-07, 09:38 PM	Regarding Powers Known. I only looked briefly at the rules of gladius, but couldn't find anything regarding this. ADDING POWERS Psionic characters can learn new powers when they attain a new level. A psion can learn any power from the psion/wilder list and powers from his chosen discipline’s list. A wilder can learn any power from the psion/wilder list. A psychic warrior can learn any power from the psychic warrior list. ---- Independent Research: A psion also can research a power independently, duplicating an existing power or creating an entirely new one. If characters are allowed to develop new powers, use these guidelines to handle the situation. Any kind of manifester can create a new power. The research involved requires access to a retreat conducive to uninterrupted meditation. Research involves an expenditure of 200 XP per week and takes one week per level of the power. At the end of that time, the character makes a Psicraft check (DC 10 + spell level). If that check succeeds, the character learns the new power if her research produced a viable power. If the check fails, the character must go through the research process again if she wants to keep trying. Do we have mechanics for this? It seems to me that taking a full action per week required & spending the approriate xp+(5 gp/xp) would be fair. On the other hand, psions could just get really high psicraft checks & know every power they have a stone of all the time....(via the "Manifest an Unknown power" section of rules)
hogarth 03-12-07, 09:46 PM	Regarding Powers Known. I only looked briefly at the rules of gladius, but couldn't find anything regarding this. Do we have mechanics for this? It seems to me that taking a full action per week required & spending the approriate xp+(5 gp/xp) would be fair. On the other hand, psions could just get really high psicraft checks & know every power they have a stone of all the time....(via the "Manifest an Unknown power" section of rules) We discussed this (and researching spells) before. The consensus (excluding me) was that you can't research a psion power unless you have an "unused" power known (even though it doesn't say anything about that in the researching rules). At any rate, the spell/power researching idea was dropped (although Vathelokai keeps it alive in his heart, I think :D).
Macbrea 03-12-07, 09:52 PM	The Two Dragons worship their respective lord or lady. Lady Saffron Brass - Lord Bahamut Lord Frost - Lady Tiamat
McJarvis 03-12-07, 09:54 PM	We discussed this (and researching spells) before. The consensus (excluding me) was that you can't research a psion power unless you have an "unused" power known (even though it doesn't say anything about that in the researching rules). At any rate, the spell/power researching idea was dropped (although Vathelokai keeps it alive in his heart, I think :D). I could understand saying no to spells-> since this is obviously a DM call for creating new spells...but researching powers known? That's just raw-> why remove it? ToK: you wanna put this in the Court? :-)
hogarth 03-12-07, 10:01 PM	I could understand saying no to spells-> since this is obviously a DM call for creating new spells...but researching powers known? That's just raw-> why remove it? Read it: "If characters are allowed to develop new powers, use these guidelines to handle the situation." That hardly sounds like a mandatory rule to me. I notice that you conveniently removed that part from your snippet you quoted above. ;)
McJarvis 03-12-07, 10:07 PM	Read it: "If characters are allowed to develop new powers, use these guidelines to handle the situation." That hardly sounds like a mandatory rule to me. I notice that you conveniently removed that part from your snippet you quoted above. ;) ...or rather, conveniently didn't read it. :( Working on Hood fight now. Almost done with the half-giant he's gonna face.
Vathelokai 03-12-07, 10:24 PM	Regarding Powers Known. I only looked briefly at the rules of gladius, but couldn't find anything regarding this. Do we have mechanics for this? It seems to me that taking a full action per week required & spending the approriate xp+(5 gp/xp) would be fair. On the other hand, psions could just get really high psicraft checks & know every power they have a stone of all the time....(via the "Manifest an Unknown power" section of rules) I came up with (what I consider) a fairly balanced way of doing it, that keeps the hypothetical obnoxious player from abusing the system with crafting and credits. There was mixed response in the elders thread. We discussed this (and researching spells) before. The consensus (excluding me) was that you can't research a psion power unless you have an "unused" power known (even though it doesn't say anything about that in the researching rules). At any rate, the spell/power researching idea was dropped (although Vathelokai keeps it alive in his heart, I think :D). Sure do. Still have the rules on my hard drive. When I have time one of these months I'll bring it back to the elders for another go around.
Vathelokai 03-12-07, 10:27 PM	(I did a survey just this morning of the domains that people have used and it was enlightening... it will be out in the next issue of the newspaper...) Oh, do please mention that Denshi somehow got Boccob to give him the domains of Freedom and Craft. :rolleyes: :D
Vathelokai 03-12-07, 10:37 PM	The Two Dragons worship their respective lord or lady. Lady Saffron Brass - Lord Bahamut Lord Frost - Lady Tiamat Don't forget Lady Indivara... I think Tiamat is hers, but I don't remember her ever saying it out loud.
MitzaVolchenko 03-13-07, 01:32 AM	Don't forget Lady Indivara... I think Tiamat is hers, but I don't remember her ever saying it out loud. She has mentioned the Queen a few times in RP.
Zevox 03-13-07, 01:34 AM	Well, since someone said Cat would be accepting new mercs soon, I decided to resurrect one of my old characters as one: and so Destra Stormwind is potentially back :D . Anyone care to look over her for mistakes or give comments about the general concept and whether its likely to get picked? Zevox
Vathelokai 03-13-07, 01:37 AM	Well, since someone said Cat would be accepting new mercs soon, I decided to resurrect one of my old characters as one: and so Destra Stormwind is potentially back :D . Anyone care to look over her for mistakes or give comments about the general concept and whether its likely to get picked? Zevox As far as I know, Cat looks for one of each 'archtype' character for every 3 levels. For example, one 3rd, 6th, 9th, etc level wizard.
Zevox 03-13-07, 01:39 AM	As far as I know, Cat looks for one of each 'archtype' character for every 3 levels. For example, one 3rd, 6th, 9th, etc level wizard. Given we've no level mercs above level 7 yet, thats not exactly a problem ;) . Zevox
Erithmu 03-13-07, 01:44 AM	Well, since someone said Cat would be accepting new mercs soon, I decided to resurrect one of my old characters as one: and so Destra Stormwind is potentially back :D . Anyone care to look over her for mistakes or give comments about the general concept and whether its likely to get picked? ZevoxMistakes: no ranks in K(Arcana) for Energy Sub (need 5) Otherwise looks good
Zevox 03-13-07, 01:46 AM	Mistakes: no ranks in K(Arcana) for Energy Sub (need 5) Otherwise looks good Ah, thanks, I forgot about that requirement. Easy fix by transferring most of the Know (Nature) ranks. Zevox
Erithmu 03-13-07, 01:47 AM	Ah, thanks, I forgot about that requirement. Easy fix by transferring most of the Know (Nature) ranks. ZevoxThere is a reason that Torel has those levels in Human Paragon ... and one of 'em isn't for the +2 wis boost (although that is really nice)
Abyssal Stalker 03-13-07, 02:24 AM	Vecna is on that list. I don't include it as a "fully defined faith" since it isn't something that I have access to with the SRD. I probably should've mentioned that. For what its worth, here's the named Faiths that are used: Vecna (Rauul) Grantis (TelinArtho) Emmantiensien (MWB) Denth (TelinArtho) The Red Knight (Zevox) Boccob (Vathelokai) Zevox also includes faith indications on most of his other characters. I didn't include them in the list above unless there was at least one character who had priest levels. Some other characters also listed religions, but didn't have cleric levels either. And then there's Jonathon Raven and his will-be cohort who worship the Vampire God Kanchelsis.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-13-07, 04:01 AM	Vecna is on that list. I don't include it as a "fully defined faith" since it isn't something that I have access to with the SRD. I probably should've mentioned that. For what its worth, here's the named Faiths that are used: Vecna (Rauul) Grantis (TelinArtho) Emmantiensien (MWB) Denth (TelinArtho) The Red Knight (Zevox) Boccob (Vathelokai) Zevox also includes faith indications on most of his other characters. I didn't include them in the list above unless there was at least one character who had priest levels. Some other characters also listed religions, but didn't have cleric levels either. x Just don't be Surprised when a Cult of Vecna starts up in a Temple near you! Jur, the Mad Magician, is also a Vecnan Priest. It was a tough choice between Vecna and Tharizdun, or the Serpent Entity. I chose to go with the more popular one. ToK
Caterane 03-13-07, 06:13 AM	I didn't add mercs of 8th level because frozen PCs could hire them for free with their gold getting refunded. I've added a rule to the Rules of Gladius that any merc or NPC Service expenditure is not refunded, even if you're frozen. So 8th level mercs are now an option. Additionally, with the higher leagues opening up soon we need high-level mercs for them. I'd prefer to add one at a time, adjusted to the PC progression on the roster. And it's also time to fill up the low-level mercenary ranks. The reason for not adding new ones was that there weren't any interesting ones left. So if you provide us with some new concepts, your chances to imprint your name in coco history are not bad atm. Please keep in mind that I'd like to have no similar classes within 1 level. So if there's a cleric at 4th lvl (Hauber) it's unlikely that I'll add a 3rd or 5th level cleric. Any other level would be fine though. Alright, let's show me what you have :)
False_Keraptis 03-13-07, 06:37 AM	Here's a fairly stupid question: If a medium wizard is riding a horse and he casts reduce person on himself, does he keep riding it with the same saddle? Does he take any penalties? What if the wizard was small sized to begin with and reduced down to tiny?
hogarth 03-13-07, 07:00 AM	Here's a fairly stupid question: If a medium wizard is riding a horse and he casts reduce person on himself, does he keep riding it with the same saddle? Does he take any penalties? What if the wizard was small sized to begin with and reduced down to tiny? The current (silly) idea seems to be that every creature uses the same sized saddle. So a psicrystal and a half-giant can both ride the same horse with the same saddle.
Abyssal Stalker 03-13-07, 07:25 AM	The current (silly) idea seems to be that every creature uses the same sized saddle. So a psicrystal and a half-giant can both ride the same horse with the same saddle. Actually, this isn't quite correct, I think. Take a look at SRD, under "Equipment; mounts" Horse: A horse (other than a pony) is suitable as a mount for a human, dwarf, elf, half-elf, or half-orc. A pony is smaller than a horse and is a suitable mount for a gnome or halfling. Warhorses and warponies can be ridden easily into combat. Light horses, ponies, and heavy horses are hard to control in combat. This seems to indicate that Medium characters should ride horses and Small characters should ride ponies. In a case like this I've given the rider the "ill-suited penalty" of -5. RIDE (DEX) If you attempt to ride a creature that is ill suited as a mount, you take a –5 penalty on your Ride checks. I've used it this way once, and nobody complained. It was a situation where a medium-sized rider (Iced's necromancer) turned into a flamebrother salamander and thus became ill-suited.
hogarth 03-13-07, 08:17 AM	This seems to indicate that Medium characters should ride horses and Small characters should ride ponies. In a case like this I've given the rider the "ill-suited penalty" of -5. Good point. I wonder if Zevox's Istima (goblin riding a pegasus) or his psicrystal (riding a horse) ever took that penalty.
McJarvis 03-13-07, 09:58 AM	Does anyone know the PC's that have been full-classed Wilders in the arena? There can't be that many of them...
hogarth 03-13-07, 10:11 AM	Does anyone know the PC's that have been full-classed Wilders in the arena? There can't be that many of them... Perius (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7224426#post7224426) is the most notable one, I think. There are a few "mutts" (Cat has one), and there are a few low-level ones that may or may not be active any longer.
Macbrea 03-13-07, 10:19 AM	It was a bit of a long run for Perius. [14 won, 33 lost] 47 fights is alot fo fights to make 10 levels in.
Zevox 03-13-07, 10:20 AM	Actually, this isn't quite correct, I think. Take a look at SRD, under "Equipment; mounts" This seems to indicate that Medium characters should ride horses and Small characters should ride ponies. In a case like this I've given the rider the "ill-suited penalty" of -5. The DMG gives more explicit rules about ill-suited mounts, though, saying that creatures need only be at least one size category larger than you to be a suitable mount. I'd say a directly stated rule trumps one that merely seems implied, no? In any event, I personally see no problem with a character riding a mount two size categories larger than it. By 3 maybe I could see issues, but certainly not something as simple as a Halfling on a Horse or things like that. Zevox
Zevox 03-13-07, 10:23 AM	Good point. I wonder if Zevox's Istima (goblin riding a pegasus) or his psicrystal (riding a horse) ever took that penalty. You know his psicrystal hasn't done that since September, right? Zevx
hogarth 03-13-07, 10:26 AM	You know his psicrystal hasn't done that since September, right? I admit I haven't been following his career that closely. ;)
SauroGrenom 03-13-07, 10:30 AM	As far as I understand it, there are no penalties for riding a mount two sizes larger than you. The rules passages which have been quoted so far simply state that a suitable mount must be at least one size larger than you. They do not state that there is an upper limit on how large a mount can be. They don't even suggest that. In fact the first rules of the game article on mounts says the following as it's opening rule: "A mount must be at least one size category bigger than the rider." That leaves it fairly open ended as to how big the mount can be.
Rauul 03-13-07, 11:15 AM	is there a rule somewhere i am missing on how many mini quests a charater can take per level (or can credits be spent) My new charater.. The Corrupter (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11532929&postcount=1074).. needs to do 2-3 to be up to snuff.. (1 leadership cohort) and 2 for animate dead purposes.. On Animate dead.. How does one pay for the (advanced or elite?) package that Desecrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/desecrate.htm) provides? (4 HD per caster level rather than 2 HD per caster level) Example is a Troll Skeleton, would go from 6d12 (6hd to 12 hd and still be 3 CR) same with the Bugbear Zombie (6hd to 12hd and still be 2CR)? Only example i can find anyplace is... Hitpoints:.......59.5 (7Hd) [CR 3] [(12)+(6*6.5)+(7*2)desecrate] (Knellstriker) Harveys undead nightmare.. (originally was Hit Dice: 6d8+18 (45 hp))
Zevox 03-13-07, 11:19 AM	is there a rule somewhere i am missing on how many mini quests a charater can take per level (or can credits be spent) Yes - you can only do one quest (full or mini) per level. Guild missions/operations or quests to join Guilds are excluded since you do not gain benefits from those outside typical xp/gp rewards. On Animate dead.. How does one pay for the (advanced or elite?) package that Desecrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/desecrate.htm) provides? By casting the spell as directed, of course. Theres no prohibition against it, and it doesn't advance the creature or give it the elite array itself, just gives it extra hp per hd. Zevox
Rauul 03-13-07, 11:24 AM	Yes - you can only do one quest (full or mini) per level. Guild missions/operations or quests to join Guilds are excluded since you do not gain benefits from those outside typical xp/gp rewards. By casting the spell as directed, of course. Theres no prohibition against it, and it doesn't advance the creature or give it the elite array itself, just gives it extra hp per hd. Zevox So i can do my leadership Cohort (since i can't start with the little 3rd level cleric of death peon) Then can I pay 5-6 credits to be able to do a miniquest or a Quest for the skeletons? or does he have to wait a full level?
Zevox 03-13-07, 11:26 AM	So i can do my leadership Cohort (since i can't start with the little 3rd level cleric of death peon) Then can I pay 5-6 credits to be able to do a miniquest or a Quest for the skeletons? or does he have to wait a full level? He has to wait a level. Theres no way around that rule, period - its in place because of the drain on our pitlording resources quests and miniquests are. If you have a few credits to spare, you could make your Leadership quest a full quest, which will likely get you nearly enough rewards to level up in its own right, presuming you succeed (its like winning 3 arena matches). Zevox
Rauul 03-13-07, 11:37 AM	He has to wait a level. Theres no way around that rule, period - its in place because of the drain on our pitlording resources quests and miniquests are. If you have a few credits to spare, you could make your Leadership quest a full quest, which will likely get you nearly enough rewards to level up in its own right, presuming you succeed (its like winning 3 arena matches). Zevox It's like winning 3 monster matchs back to back rolled off the insane ECL 7 encounter chart... (a full 40+% your gonna loose if your not prepared for them before hand).. would rather take my chances in the arena... But then again... could he keep the corpses of what he killed and animate them (instead of treaure) killing 3 birds with 1 quest....
hogarth 03-13-07, 11:39 AM	It's like winning 3 monster matchs back to back rolled off the insane ECL 7 encounter chart... (a full 40+% your gonna loose if your not prepared for them before hand).. would rather take my chances in the arena... But then again... could he keep the corpses of what he killed and animate them (instead of treaure) killing 3 birds with 1 quest.... Unfortunately, no. Only 1 questgoal is allowed per quest/miniquest.
Erithmu 03-13-07, 11:43 AM	Also remember full quests are designed by the questlord and not rolled on the monster charts. So if you want to do some thematic or RP stuff then that is possible. Personally as a questlord, I will play one fight to your strength, and then a couple that make you think, with one removing your primary form of attack. And then I just have a couple of my scarry guys.
Rauul 03-13-07, 11:44 AM	Unfortunately, no. Only 1 questgoal is allowed per quest/miniquest. Yes i understand that part... I also understand that items obtained on a Quest.. have to be paid for after the quest (in gold).. one persons Corpse is anothers "loot".. and said necromancer whould be willing to pay the gold piece value of the "loot" After the Quest...
Erithmu 03-13-07, 11:53 AM	Note to Questlord: all corpses need to roll into pools of acid, lava, or snatched up by really really big dragons. Or have some really odd stuff happen to them. Or just make them undead to begin with.
Rauul 03-13-07, 12:14 PM	Note to Questlord: all corpses need to roll into pools of acid, lava, or snatched up by really really big dragons. Or have some really odd stuff happen to them. Or just make them undead to begin with. Party Pooper!!! But honestly... what is the GP value of a corpse that has had Gentle Repose cast on it?? So a necromancer can keep the Loot afterwards..
hogarth 03-13-07, 12:16 PM	But honestly... what is the GP value of a corpse that has had Gentle Repose cast on it?? So a necromancer can keep the Loot afterwards.. If you have to ask, you can't afford it. :P
Rauul 03-13-07, 12:28 PM	If you have to ask, you can't afford it. :P hehe acually i am asking cause of the Section in the Quest rules.. Questlords - Treasure (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6467294#post6467294).. And you cannot argue that a Corpse is pure treasure for a Specialist Necromancer Wizard.. Well I guess you could argue..
Erithmu 03-13-07, 12:30 PM	hehe acually i am asking cause of the Section in the Quest rules.. Questlords - Treasure (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6467294#post6467294).. And you cannot argue that a Corpse is pure treasure for a Specialist Necromancer Wizard.. Well I guess you could argue.. Allow me to be blunt: NO! if you want to do this you can, but you will find yourself in the prison thread faster than you can finish the spellcasting words. And then you will have to get rid of the animated corpses anyways.
Rauul 03-13-07, 12:43 PM	Allow me to be blunt: NO! if you want to do this you can, but you will find yourself in the prison thread faster than you can finish the spellcasting words. And then you will have to get rid of the animated corpses anyways. Then i guess i need to post this in courtroom or someplace to have The Elders desition.. since 6 credits can be payed for a quest.. with the risk of Death (outside the nimbus) and removing a 3rd and 4th level spell from the game, if used on the quest.. Sorry just don't seem logical to me.. Edit=>you can sell the loot on a quest for full gold value, or keep it by paying full value from your awards..
Tellish_of_Ket 03-13-07, 01:24 PM	QUESTION: If a gladiator can somehow affect his opponent by sending him/her to the astral plane (or some other distance location outside Gladius), and they have no means of return, do they lose by default because of the 10-round delay penalty? ToK (just humour me on this one)
Macbrea 03-13-07, 01:33 PM	If a character is out of the arena for any reason for more then 10 rounds they loose.
Rauul 03-13-07, 01:34 PM	In case of the Animate Dead spell you need to acquire a corpse first (which is normally be tied to a Quest or Miniquest unless you can get the body in another way, eg. buy a horse and kill it). All these allies use the abilities presented in their entry, modified by whatever the spell does (eg. +2 dex for skeletons). this means i can buy 2 8gp mules slit their throats Animate them to be 1 CR Skeletons/Zombies and not pay credits? Just make as normal and add zombie-skeleton template to them.. No miniquest or Quest.. Correct?
hogarth 03-13-07, 01:36 PM	this means i can buy 2 8gp mules slit their throats Animate them to be 1 CR Skeletons/Zombies and not pay credits? Just make as normal and add zombie-skeleton template to them.. No miniquest or Quest.. Correct? Absolutely. They'd make pretty lousy minions, but they're cheap. :D
Tellish_of_Ket 03-13-07, 01:37 PM	If a character is out of the arena for any reason for more then 10 rounds they loose. Okeedokie! I guess i'm ready for my next nerfing. LOL LOL ToK
McJarvis 03-13-07, 01:38 PM	Okeedokie! I guess i'm ready for my next nerfing. LOL LOL ToK Macbrea beat you to it on this one. He's used plane shift(repeatedly? I forget) to make opponents auto-lose. :)
Tellish_of_Ket 03-13-07, 01:38 PM	Absolutely. They'd make pretty lousy minions, but they're cheap. :D Cheap ya, but for 32gp (4 mules), he can zombify them and use aid-another for +8 AC. Not too shabby. Or two skellies (2 mules, 16 gp), and charge/annoy his opponent. ToK
TheMagister 03-13-07, 01:39 PM	At the very least they're meatshields/flanking buddies/soft cover.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-13-07, 01:41 PM	Macbrea beat you to it on this one. He's used plane shift(repeatedly? I forget) to make opponents auto-lose. :) What level was he when he accomplished this? I'm planning on doing it at 11th possibly. ToK
SauroGrenom 03-13-07, 01:42 PM	What level was he when he accomplished this? I'm planning on doing it at 11th possibly. ToK There's also a psionic weapon enhancement that teleports you away. If you cannot teleport back, your out of luck.
TheMagister 03-13-07, 01:43 PM	Couldn't you dominate a person who is carrying an extradimensional storage item and force them up the rope into a rope trick spell's extradimensional space and basically cause them to be sucked into the Astral?
sonofzeal 03-13-07, 01:45 PM	Couldn't you dominate a person who is carrying an extradimensional storage item and force them up the rope into a rope trick spell's extradimensional space and basically cause them to be sucked into the Astral? Could you not also dominate them into, I dunno, just plain surrendering?
McJarvis 03-13-07, 01:45 PM	What level was he when he accomplished this? I'm planning on doing it at 11th possibly. ToK I think he was doing it any monsterfight he was given in which the monster had the planeshift ability.(janni)
Macbrea 03-13-07, 01:47 PM	It was done during a monster fight. The monster had Planeshift as an ability. Since, it was 3 monsters on 1 character. They just rushed and planeshifted the person. It left one of their number in the arena.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-13-07, 01:47 PM	Couldn't you dominate a person who is carrying an extradimensional storage item and force them up the rope into a rope trick spell's extradimensional space and basically cause them to be sucked into the Astral? I'm not sure if that's possible. Once they enter the rope-trick's space he effectively enters another plane, ending the domination. That's part 1....part 2, is the "obviously self-destructive" part that it could potentially cause (they don't turn into mindless zombies) and simply would refuse. ToK
SauroGrenom 03-13-07, 01:48 PM	If you dominate someone into such an action it's the arena equivalent of suicide. It is treated as such with respect to the spell's effect.
hogarth 03-13-07, 01:48 PM	I think he was doing it any monsterfight he was given in which the monster had the planeshift ability.(janni) I was looking at the janni description. Under "Special Qualities", it says "plane shift" but in the body of the description (in the SRD) it doesn't explain how many times per day it can be used or what can be affected by it. Strange...
Tellish_of_Ket 03-13-07, 01:49 PM	It was done during a monster fight. The monster had Planeshift as an ability. Since, it was 3 monsters on 1 character. They just rushed and planeshifted the person. It left one of their number in the arena. Oh, i thought you were the one doing the planshifting. It will be different i guess with a PC doing it to another PC. ToK
Macbrea 03-13-07, 01:50 PM	We have an arena already that can force loss by exiting the arena. That is the City map. If you can possibly push your opponent to a height of 55ft, they are wisked away from the arena and loose at the end of 10 rounds. The arena map is only 20ft in every direction before you reach the edge of the arena. This means if you could somehow force your opponent to 100ft straight down. They would loose at the end of 10 rounds.
TheMagister 03-13-07, 01:51 PM	{shrug} Depends on if the character had the requisite Knowledge skill. It'd be "arcana" wouldn't it? I mean, it's hardly common knowledge. Farmer John NPC: "...and then that bone-headed adventurer stuck his bag of holding into his portable hole right in my barn, do you believe that? EVERYONE knows that you can't do that! I lost my best cow!"
Rauul 03-13-07, 01:56 PM	Cheap ya, but for 32gp (4 mules), he can zombify them and use aid-another for +8 AC. Not too shabby. Or two skellies (2 mules, 16 gp), and charge/annoy his opponent. ToK Yea i am thinking 2 mules Zombies (Molass and Moses) and 2 med riding Mutts (Bone and Yard)... welp time to write them up and add them to the sheet... :D :D :D
sonofzeal 03-13-07, 01:56 PM	If you dominate someone into such an action it's the arena equivalent of suicide. It is treated as such with respect to the spell's effect. So could you Dominate or Suggestion someone into surrendering? Logically that should work, but if arena loss is equated to death then maybe not... "Wouldn't you like to surrender and save us both the pain and effort of hacking pieces off eachother? Things will be so much better if you just surrender now." This may matter for a future character of mine, so a clear ruling would be nice.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-13-07, 01:57 PM	{shrug} Depends on if the character had the requisite Knowledge skill. It'd be "arcana" wouldn't it? I mean, it's hardly common knowledge. Farmer John NPC: "...and then that bone-headed adventurer stuck his bag of holding into his portable hole right in my barn, do you believe that? EVERYONE knows that you can't do that! I lost my best cow!" I would work on the assumption that an experienced gladiator knows the consequences of "leaving the arena" and use that rather than intricate knowledge skills. Maze works on less intelligent ppl as well...that's not a bad choice. And it's no save. ToK
Hirumajoe 03-13-07, 01:58 PM	Okeedokie! I guess i'm ready for my next nerfing. LOL LOL ToK As far as I know, all the transport spells either allow a save or don't work on unwilling targets, which implies that such a strategy is no worse than any other save or die spell. With the fact that the opponent may have a method of returning, unlike say, a Stone to Flesh spell or a Baleful Polymorph. Edit: Maze is an interesting one. Thats a level 8 spell that only allows SR, and an int check. Its not guaranteed to work, but yeah, its got good odds.
TheMagister 03-13-07, 01:59 PM	No, there's a rule somewhere that says you can't be dominated into surrender. But if you don't know that an action will kill you (or really, just remove you from the material plane), you have no reason not to undertake the action.
hogarth 03-13-07, 02:01 PM	Yea i am thinking 2 mules Zombies (Molass and Moses) and 2 med riding Mutts (Bone and Yard)... welp time to write them up and add them to the sheet... Note that a mule zombie would have 6 HD and would thus be a CR 2 creature. I can think of way, way better CR 2 creatures to have as allies -- probably 2 light warhorses would even be better in most circumstances.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-13-07, 02:09 PM	No, there's a rule somewhere that says you can't be dominated into surrender. But if you don't know that an action will kill you (or really, just remove you from the material plane), you have no reason not to undertake the action.And to that i reply, "if it's happened even once in the history of the arena, then it's common knowledge." Word gets around in a small community like this. LOL. Gladiator's aren't zombies, and it's not likely you can convince anyone to jump into that big black gaping hole that its for "safety" reason. I just can't see that happening at all. ToK
hogarth 03-13-07, 02:13 PM	Can a gladiator put a Headband of Intellect +2 on a hippogriff (say), thus raising its intelligence to 4 and allowing it to act more intelligently?
McJarvis 03-13-07, 02:28 PM	Can a gladiator put a Headband of Intellect +2 on a hippogriff (say), thus raising its intelligence to 4 and allowing it to act more intelligently? That would be quite an interesting accessory for a druid's animal companion...
Tellish_of_Ket 03-13-07, 02:45 PM	Question: Can a Night Hag's Dream Haunting (Su) ability be prebuffed against your opponent? By all accounts, it should be. Reason for asking and how to do it? Planar Ally. ToK EDIT Forget it...just figured out you can't. Too bad.
Rauul 03-13-07, 02:51 PM	Note that a mule zombie would have 6 HD and would thus be a CR 2 creature. I can think of way, way better CR 2 creatures to have as allies -- probably 2 light warhorses would even be better in most circumstances. umm mules are 3hd (6 if made under desecration i believe) Size/Type: Large Undead Animal (undead mule) Hit Dice: 6d12+3 (45 hp) 12+[6x5+3] Initiative: 0 Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares) Armor Class: 15 (-1 size, +3 natural +3 undead), touch 9, flat-footed 15 Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+10 Attack: Hoof +5 melee (1d4+4) or slam attack (1d8+6) Full Attack: -- Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: — Special Qualities: damage reduction 5/slashing(ex), Single Actions Only (Ex) Saves: Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +1 Abilities: Str 18, Dex 11, Con --, Int --, Wis 10, Cha 1 Skills: -- Feats: Toughness Environment: -- Organization: -- Challenge Rating: 2 Alignment: neutral evil Cost 8gp+75gp for Black onyx gem Size/Type: Medium undead Animal(undead St. Bernard) Hit Dice: 2d12 (18 hp)[12+6] Initiative: +7 Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares) Armor Class: 17 (+3 Dex, +4 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 14 Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+3 Attack: Bite +1 melee (1d6+1) Full Attack: Bite +1 melee (1d6+1) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: — Special Qualities:Immunity to Cold (Ex),Damage Reduction (Ex),darkvision 60 ft, Undead Traits Saves: Fort +0, Ref +6, Will +1 Abilities: Str 15, Dex 17, Con --, Int --, Wis 10, Cha 1 Skills: -- Feats: Improved Initiative Alignment : neutral evil Challenge Rating: 1 Cost Riding Dog (150 gp)+50 gp Black onyx gem Anyone care to comment or correct these for me? edit=> your correct.. CR would be a 2 for the mule, still better than nothing for a meat shield to stand behind..
Macbrea 03-13-07, 02:54 PM	Can a gladiator put a Headband of Intellect +2 on a hippogriff (say), thus raising its intelligence to 4 and allowing it to act more intelligently? Yes, you could put it on a hippogriffin because it's a magic beast. Animal of intelligence 2 would not benefit from it at all because they have a max int of 2.
TelinArtho 03-13-07, 02:55 PM	Hit Dice: Drop any Hit Dice from class levels (to a minimum of 1), double the number of Hit Dice left, and raise them to d12s. If the base creature has more than 10 Hit Dice (not counting those gained with experience), it can’t be made into a zombie with the animate dead spell. Note the 6HD stated is correct. Also - all allies do not have a maximized first HD. If Cat's Knellstriker is still in error here, send him a PM.
TheMagister 03-13-07, 03:04 PM	He's been reported in the prison for it already.
Rauul 03-13-07, 03:05 PM	Note the 6HD stated is correct. Also - all allies do not have a maximized first HD. If Cat's Knellstriker is still in error here, send him a PM. What do Allys have for level 1 hd's 1/2 normal like the rest of the levels? whats the set standard for this... and yes Cat's undead nightmare is listed as this... Hitpoints:.......59.5 (7Hd) [CR 3] [(12)+(6*6.5)+(7*2)desecrate] you can PM her... i am not getting involved...
TheMagister 03-13-07, 03:07 PM	{whisper} Caterane's a dude
Tellish_of_Ket 03-13-07, 03:07 PM	{whisper} Caterane's a dude {whisper} but he fights like a girl
SauroGrenom 03-13-07, 03:08 PM	you can PM her... i am not getting involved...*smirk* Cat's a him. It's OK. I made the same mistake in the first weeks I was here.
Rauul 03-13-07, 03:09 PM	*smirk* Cat's a him. It's OK. I made the same mistake in the first weeks I was here. yea yea been making the same mistake now since i been here... ok you PM HIM.. still not getting involved...
TheMagister 03-13-07, 03:12 PM	{whisper} but he fights like a girl and he's always right and he always has the last word and the board revolves around him... {GASP} he is a girl! This is all in good fun. If it offends, I'll edit it out.
hogarth 03-13-07, 03:12 PM	He's been reported in the prison for it already. He claimed to me that he fixed it, but apparently he's just full of baloney! (That's the polite way of saying it.) :raincloud EDIT: I take it back -- 59 hp is correct (7*6.5 + 6*2). He just didn't correct the formula next to the total.
TelinArtho 03-13-07, 03:13 PM	What do Allys have for level 1 hd's 1/2 normal like the rest of the levels? whats the set standard for this... and yes Cat's undead nightmare is listed as this... Hitpoints:.......59.5 (7Hd) [CR 3] [(12)+(6*6.5)+(7*2)desecrate] you can PM her... i am not getting involved... I can't seem to find the reference for it. I was fairly sure it was in the Races and Classes section of the rules thread, but I'm not finding it now. Regardless, all allies have average HP throughout - no maxed out first HD. Someone else might be able to find the reference, but it is eluding me right now...
hogarth 03-13-07, 03:16 PM	"Starting Out - Hitpoints Characters get maximum hit points at level 1. [...] Allies do not get a maximized first HD."
Abyssal Stalker 03-13-07, 03:17 PM	As far as I understand it, there are no penalties for riding a mount two sizes larger than you. The rules passages which have been quoted so far simply state that a suitable mount must be at least one size larger than you. They do not state that there is an upper limit on how large a mount can be. They don't even suggest that. In fact the first rules of the game article on mounts says the following as it's opening rule: "A mount must be at least one size category bigger than the rider." That leaves it fairly open ended as to how big the mount can be. Well, that was just how I read the rules when a situation like that rose, and nobody complained. I'm not saying that it's the only way you can read the rules and even that it would be the only way, I just wanted to bring this up because it reminded me of a similar situation that I had to react.
Rauul 03-13-07, 03:19 PM	Size/Type: Large Undead Animal (undead mule) Hit Dice: 6d12+3 (39 hp) [6x6+3] Initiative: 0 Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares) Armor Class: 15 (-1 size, +3 natural +3 undead), touch 9, flat-footed 15 Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+10 Attack: Hoof +5 melee (1d4+4) or slam attack (1d8+6) Full Attack: -- Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: — Special Qualities: damage reduction 5/slashing(ex), Single Actions Only (Ex) Saves: Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +1 Abilities: Str 18, Dex 11, Con --, Int --, Wis 10, Cha 1 Skills: -- Feats: Toughness Environment: -- Organization: -- Challenge Rating: 2 Alignment: neutral evil Cost 8gp+75gp for Black onyx gem Size/Type: Medium undead Animal (undead St. Bernard) Hit Dice: 2d12 (12 hp)[6+6] Initiative: +7 Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares) Armor Class: 17 (+3 Dex, +4 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 14 Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+3 Attack: Bite +1 melee (1d6+1) Full Attack: Bite +1 melee (1d6+1) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: — Special Qualities:Immunity to Cold (Ex),Damage Reduction (Ex),darkvision 60 ft, Undead Traits Saves: Fort +0, Ref +6, Will +1 Abilities: Str 15, Dex 17, Con --, Int --, Wis 10, Cha 1 Skills: -- Feats: Improved Initiative Alignment : neutral evil Challenge Rating: 1 Cost Riding Dog (150 gp)+50 gp Black onyx gem Ok Hit dice fixed... anything else wrong with them?
TelinArtho 03-13-07, 03:25 PM	How many hands do you need to make use of Perform in combat? For instance, if my character took Perform (Wind Instruments), would there be an uproar about him performing with the wind instrument in one hand and a weapon in the other? (And yes, I know I could take Perform (Singing) and eliminate the need for hands... but then I don't get the nifty Pipes of Pain later on...)Acually most of all wind instrments are 2 handed... But for a few hundred GP you to can have a Mage hand at will... and it can and will do as you mentally direct it to do... Now that would be a show!! Well the goal is to not have to use something for concentration... as a bard he's already going to be concentrating on the playing of the music... Anyway, I'm doing research on the subject for my bard and I think there are more than a few wind instruments that can be played effectively with a single hand. Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_woodwind_instruments) The ocarina, for instance, sometimes has as few as 4 holes - which is few enough to cater to a single hand holding it. In addition, some whistles and the like would be acceptable I think. So, with this light, is there any issue with my wind instrument bard playing a wind instument with one hand and holding a sword with the other?
SauroGrenom 03-13-07, 03:25 PM	Well, that was just how I read the rules when a situation like that rose, and nobody complained. I'm not saying that it's the only way you can read the rules and even that it would be the only way, I just wanted to bring this up because it reminded me of a similar situation that I had to react.We've had people use huge mounts on medium characters for a while. An elephant was used way back in the day. The penalty you suggest is a rather small one, so I'm not surprised that it wasn't a bone of contention. However I don't think that any such penalty is in the RAW, and it probably shouldn't be applied.
TelinArtho 03-13-07, 03:27 PM	Size/Type: Large Undead Animal (undead mule) Hit Dice: 6d12+3 (39 hp) [6x6+3] Initiative: 0 Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares) Armor Class: 15 (-1 size, +3 natural +3 undead), touch 9, flat-footed 15 Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+10 Attack: Hoof +5 melee (1d4+4) or slam attack (1d8+6) Full Attack: -- Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: — Special Qualities: damage reduction 5/slashing(ex), Single Actions Only (Ex) Saves: Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +1 Abilities: Str 18, Dex 11, Con --, Int --, Wis 10, Cha 1 Skills: -- Feats: Toughness Environment: -- Organization: -- Challenge Rating: 2 Alignment: neutral evil Cost 8gp+75gp for Black onyx gem Size/Type: Medium undead Animal (undead St. Bernard) Hit Dice: 2d12 (12 hp)[6+6] Initiative: +7 Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares) Armor Class: 17 (+3 Dex, +4 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 14 Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+3 Attack: Bite +1 melee (1d6+1) Full Attack: Bite +1 melee (1d6+1) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: — Special Qualities:Immunity to Cold (Ex),Damage Reduction (Ex),darkvision 60 ft, Undead Traits Saves: Fort +0, Ref +6, Will +1 Abilities: Str 15, Dex 17, Con --, Int --, Wis 10, Cha 1 Skills: -- Feats: Improved Initiative Alignment : neutral evil Challenge Rating: 1 Cost Riding Dog (150 gp)+50 gp Black onyx gem Ok Hit dice fixed... anything else wrong with them? d12s should be 6.5hp/HD - so that'll bump them up a few more.
Abyssal Stalker 03-13-07, 03:30 PM	We've had people use huge mounts on medium characters for a while. An elephant was used way back in the day. The penalty you suggest is a rather small one, so I'm not surprised that it wasn't a bone of contention. However I don't think that any such penalty is in the RAW, and it probably shouldn't be applied. Yes, you are probably right about that. That leads us to the old problem of somehow regulating mounts here in CoCo, but that's another story and I don't necessary want to participate on that debate :)
SauroGrenom 03-13-07, 03:36 PM	Yes, you are probably right about that. That leads us to the old problem of somehow regulating mounts here in CoCo, but that's another story and I don't necessary want to participate on that debate :)I'd rather go after allies before worrying about mounts. Allies can get totally out of hand way before the mounts do.
McJarvis 03-13-07, 03:54 PM	I'd rather go after allies before worrying about mounts. Allies can get totally out of hand way before the mounts do. That's because mounts are a subset of allies ;)
Rauul 03-13-07, 03:55 PM	Size/Type: Large Undead Animal (undead mule) Hit Dice: 6d12+3 (42 hp) [6.5x6+3] Initiative: 0 Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares) Armor Class: 15 (-1 size, +3 natural +3 undead), touch 9, flat-footed 15 Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+10 Attack: Hoof +5 melee (1d4+4) or slam attack (1d8+6) Full Attack: -- Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: — Special Qualities: damage reduction 5/slashing(ex), Single Actions Only (Ex),darkvision 60 ft,Undead Traits Saves: Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +1 Abilities: Str 18 (+4) Dex 11 (0) Con -- Int -- Wis 10 (0) Cha 1 (-5) Skills: -- Feats: Toughness Environment: -- Organization: -- Challenge Rating: 2 Alignment: neutral evil Cost 8gp+75gp for Black onyx gem Size/Type: Medium undead Animal (undead St. Bernard) Hit Dice: 2d12 (13 hp)[6.5x2] Initiative: +7 Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares) Armor Class: 17 (+3 Dex, +4 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 14 Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+3 Attack: Bite +1 melee (1d6+1) Full Attack: Bite +1 melee (1d6+1) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: — Special Qualities:Immunity to Cold (Ex),Damage Reduction (Ex),darkvision 60 ft, Undead Traits Saves: Fort +0, Ref +6, Will +1 Abilities: Str 15 (+2) Dex 17 (+3) Con -- Int -- Wis 10 (0) Cha 1 (-5) Skills: -- Feats: Improved Initiative Alignment : neutral evil Challenge Rating: 1 Cost Riding Dog (150 gp)+50 gp Black onyx gem Ok Hit dice fixed (for the 3rd time)... anything else wrong with them? (rather fix it now than have My Player go directly to the prison without passing go..) Also leadership score 7[level]+2[cha modifer]=9-2 [for famililar]=7-2 [for cruelty]=5 max level is then level 3 cohort Correct?
Zevox 03-13-07, 03:58 PM	Also leadership score 7[level]+2[cha modifer]=9-2 [for famililar]=7-2 [for cruelty]=5 max level is then level 3 cohort Correct? Eh, we don't have a way to implement the Cruelty modifier in the CoCo as yet. You could impose it on yourself I guess, but you're not required to. Zevox
Rauul 03-13-07, 04:17 PM	Eh, we don't have a way to implement the Cruelty modifier in the CoCo as yet. You could impose it on yourself I guess, but you're not required to. Zevox well since max level of cohort is ECL-4 not -2 as the chart has it.. adding the -2 cruelty modify makes the cohort -4 So i can use him and fits the RP aspect of my evil necromancer who has no feelings about allys.. they are just expensive expendables.. cause the Cohort will know if he dies... he will still be a member of the undead army (Now that cruel)
TelinArtho 03-13-07, 04:18 PM	Rauul - when using ECL, the max you can bring is your ECL-2. (Leadership cohort/Planar cohort/Thrall are the only ones that use ECL instead of CR) ECL-4 is for allies using CR.
hogarth 03-13-07, 04:22 PM	Do miniquests count the same as quests/campaigns for the "moves around a lot" modifier to Leadership followers?
Rauul 03-13-07, 04:25 PM	Rauul - when using ECL, the max you can bring is your ECL-2. (Leadership cohort/Planar cohort/Thrall are the only ones that use ECL instead of CR) ECL-4 is for allies using CR. So he can have a 5th level cohort, but bringing the cohort into the arena wouldn't allow any of the undead to come in (Max CA=5).. So if he had a ECL 3 Cohort, he could still bring in 2 mutts or 1 mule.. or am i messing up this again... Allies Maximum CR per ally: CR 3 Maximum ECL per ally: ECL 5 Maximum CA of allies per fight: CA 5 edit=> or are you saying i can bring a 5th level cohort, AND 5 CA's of undead (max CL is 3 for any of them)
Zevox 03-13-07, 04:25 PM	well since max level of cohort is ECL-4 not -2 as the chart has it.. Um, what? No, it isn't. I think you're confusing two of our ally rules here - the max ECL of an ally is your ECL-2, the max CR (for those without an ECL) is your ECL-4 or 1, whichever is higher. Zevox
TelinArtho 03-13-07, 04:25 PM	Another question about the bard in the making. I know bardic knowledge applies for monster knowledge - but what about for the requisite knowledge for purposes of Alter Self and Polymorph (for the CoCo house rule...)? EDIT - sent a PM off to Cat since he's probably the only one who could answer it with certainty...
TelinArtho 03-13-07, 04:47 PM	So he can have a 5th level cohort, but bringing the cohort into the arena wouldn't allow any of the undead to come in (Max CA=5).. So if he had a ECL 3 Cohort, he could still bring in 2 mutts or 1 mule.. or am i messing up this again... Allies Maximum CR per ally: CR 3 Maximum ECL per ally: ECL 5 Maximum CA of allies per fight: CA 5 edit=> or are you saying i can bring a 5th level cohort, AND 5 CA's of undead (max CL is 3 for any of them) Well a quick review of the allies rules would certainly help here: Your Max CA (Coefficient of Allies) is your ECL-2. This is the maximum total of CR/ECL that you can have. Your MaxCR is your (ECL-4,1). This is the maximum CR of an individual ally. If your ECL is 4 or less, then the value is 1. Your MaxECL is your ECL-2. This is the maximum ECL of an individual ally. So, if you were ECL7, you would have a MaxCA of 5. You could bring 1) a cohort of ECL5, 2) a cohort of ECL3 and a heavy warhorse of CR2, 3) a mercenary of ECL1, a Medium Air Elemental of CR3 and a Small Fire Elemental of CR1, etc.
TheMagister 03-13-07, 04:51 PM	Just so I'm totally clear on this: Greater Concealing Amorpha grants total concealment, but you can still be pinpointed via sight. It's more like Displacement than Greater Invisibility, in other words. Displacement allows you to be targeted by spells, right (I mean Target: creature spells). So it's no protection against Ego Whip. TM
Zevox 03-13-07, 04:57 PM	Yup. Zevox
TheMagister 03-13-07, 04:58 PM	Drat. Oh well. Vampiric Blade works for me too. There's not really anything in the level 3 power list that helps my concept. It's so disappointing...
Rauul 03-13-07, 05:01 PM	Well a quick review of the allies rules would certainly help here: Your Max CA (Coefficient of Allies) is your ECL-2. This is the maximum total of CR/ECL that you can have. Your MaxCR is your (ECL-4,1). This is the maximum CR of an individual ally. If your ECL is 4 or less, then the value is 1. Your MaxECL is your ECL-2. This is the maximum ECL of an individual ally. So, if you were ECL7, you would have a MaxCA of 5. You could bring 1) a cohort of ECL5, 2) a cohort of ECL3 and a heavy warhorse of CR2, 3) a mercenary of ECL1, a Medium Air Elemental of CR3 and a Small Fire Elemental of CR1, etc. ok it's either a Lower level cohort to use undead.. or a full cohort and no undead.. (think i will go back to being cruel and evil and get the level 3 leadership cohort)
hogarth 03-13-07, 05:03 PM	ok it's either a Lower level cohort to use undead.. or a full cohort and no undead.. (think i will go back to being cruel and evil and get the level 3 leadership cohort) You don't have to have the same allies for every fight of your cycle. So for fight #1, you can bring your zombie buddies with you and save your cohort for fights #2 and #3.
Zevox 03-13-07, 05:04 PM	Drat. Oh well. Vampiric Blade works for me too. There's not really anything in the level 3 power list that helps my concept. It's so disappointing... You know, you could always pick up a 2nd level power if theres really nothing that appeals to you. I've always wondered why you never picked up Dissolving Weapon as a known power myself. Zevox
TheMagister 03-13-07, 05:16 PM	Because it's typed damage. I'm a big fan of untyped damage. Hood depends on his pp for all that untyped damage. If I carry around those stones of dissolving weapon, I force everybody I'm up against to spend a round buffing an energy protection spell. That spell prevents 10 of the 4d6 damage, and (in my experience) only between 2 and 5 damage actually gets through. And I spent a round applying it to the stupid arrow. If I had it as a power, I'd spend a round and 3pp applying it to the arrow. For a free action and 1 less pp, I get 2d6 untyped damage. Now (with manyshot) I spend a free action and 1 more pp and get 4d6 untyped damage. To my mind, that's a better deal. The one I've always considered is Prevenom Weapon. MAN I'd like to do Con+Str damage with every hit. I'll just have to settle for healing (2d8+4)/2 every round. Darn it. TM
TheMagister 03-13-07, 05:17 PM	You know, I hadn't considered it, but: Does Anti-magic field kill Psionic Shot and Deepcrystal?
SauroGrenom 03-13-07, 05:20 PM	Just so I'm totally clear on this: Greater Concealing Amorpha grants total concealment, but you can still be pinpointed via sight. It's more like Displacement than Greater Invisibility, in other words. Displacement allows you to be targeted by spells, right (I mean Target: creature spells). So it's no protection against Ego Whip. TMIf you have total concealment I don't think you can be targeted. I could be confusing that with total cover where I know you cannot be targeted.
SauroGrenom 03-13-07, 05:20 PM	You know, I hadn't considered it, but: Does Anti-magic field kill Psionic Shot and Deepcrystal?Yep.
hogarth 03-13-07, 05:23 PM	If you have total concealment I don't think you can be targeted. I could be confusing that with total cover where I know you cannot be targeted. The issue is that the spell Displacement has a clause that says "you can still be targeted" -- one could maybe argue that the writers inadvertantly forgot to put that clause into Greater Concealing Amorpha. That would definitely fall into the dreaded category of "writing new rules", though.
SauroGrenom 03-13-07, 05:26 PM	Because it's typed damage. I'm a big fan of untyped damage. Hood depends on his pp for all that untyped damage. If I carry around those stones of dissolving weapon, I force everybody I'm up against to spend a round buffing an energy protection spell. That spell prevents 10 of the 4d6 damage, and (in my experience) only between 2 and 5 damage actually gets through. And I spent a round applying it to the stupid arrow. If I had it as a power, I'd spend a round and 3pp applying it to the arrow. For a free action and 1 less pp, I get 2d6 untyped damage. Now (with manyshot) I spend a free action and 1 more pp and get 4d6 untyped damage. To my mind, that's a better deal. The one I've always considered is Prevenom Weapon. MAN I'd like to do Con+Str damage with every hit. I'll just have to settle for healing (2d8+4)/2 every round. Darn it. TMI've always been interested in seeing someone use a melee weapon that can be thrown like a spear and putting things like deep crystal, power storing, spell storing, dissolving weapon and psionic shot into that thing. It would be like a cruise missile when it hits. Get teleporting on the weapon as well, and go to town every round with it. Mounted combat, ride bye attack, and you are on the move.
SauroGrenom 03-13-07, 05:32 PM	The issue is that the spell Displacement has a clause that says "you can still be targeted" -- one could maybe argue that the writers inadvertantly forgot to put that clause into Greater Concealing Amorpha. That would definitely fall into the dreaded category of "writing new rules", though.Yea if you have total concealment you cannot be targeted by target spells like hold person. Invisibility grants total concealment, and protects against those kinds of spells.
Rauul 03-13-07, 05:38 PM	really don't know what Cat is planning with the Anti-magic Field... An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell’s duration. Duration: 10 min./level (D) Edit=> Area: 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you (not on anything else) So i guess he can Dispell it and have all his spells up from before he cast it.. and just keep dispelling it and casting it.. since he can do no spell casting from within side.. or psionics.. none zero nada.. the Anti-magic field would be great for a no spell casting fighter.. but for a cleric... I am not seeing it..
TheMagister 03-13-07, 05:39 PM	Whoa, so which is it!? If you have Greater Concealing Amorpha going, can you be targeted or not?
SauroGrenom 03-13-07, 05:42 PM	really don't know what Cat is planning with the Anti-magic Field... Duration: 10 min./level (D) So i guess he can Dispell it and have all his spells up from before he cast it.. and just keep dispelling it and casting it.. since he can do no spell casting from within side.. or psionics.. none zero nada.. the Anti-magic field would be great for a no spell casting fighter.. but for a cleric... I am not seeing it..What he's going to do is defeat all the casters who cannot cause another kind of damage. Any of his mounts will allow him to get into range with most opponents to grapple. This strategy rocks on most maps. Basically he becomes immune to all the save or die spells. Against opponents which he cannot defeat in grapple, he has other tricks.
TelinArtho 03-13-07, 05:43 PM	really don't know what Cat is planning with the Anti-magic Field... Duration: 10 min./level (D) Edit=> Area: 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you (not on anything else) So i guess he can Dispell it and have all his spells up from before he cast it.. and just keep dispelling it and casting it.. since he can do no spell casting from within side.. or psionics.. none zero nada.. the Anti-magic field would be great for a no spell casting fighter.. but for a cleric... I am not seeing it.. Well, it essentially makes him a powerhouse versus full-casters without a melee option. Versus straight fighters and other melee/ranged powerhouses, he can still make use of his effective buffs from other methods. I've looked it over and I'm not sure what he would do against Kraegin, but he certainly has made things more difficult for me...
SauroGrenom 03-13-07, 05:45 PM	Whoa, so which is it!? If you have Greater Concealing Amorpha going, can you be targeted or not?I think not.
Zevox 03-13-07, 05:46 PM	@ TM - Hm. I guess by the strictest possible literal reading of the rules, you can't. I really, really hate the idea of ruling it like that though, since it basically makes it into a 3rd-level Greater Invisibility. @ Rauul - I'm guessing he intends to ward himself from spellcasters and manifesters with it, since Harvey has several ways to strike without magic. I've got to wonder though if he realizes that it will mean his Nightmare mount won't be able to fly him anywhere though, since thats a magical ability on it (wouldn't be allowed to keep its flight otherwise, per skeleton description), which means he has issues vs flying casters/manifesters with it, given his only ranged weapon is a crossbow he has a low bonus with. Zevox
SauroGrenom 03-13-07, 05:47 PM	I've looked it over and I'm not sure what he would do against Kraegin, but he certainly has made things more difficult for me...Against summons there is a CL check against the SR of the creature. The staff casts at CL11, so there's a really good chance the summon cannot get close enough to do anything. I think the major issue is that while in the AMF, the Harvester cannot fly.
McJarvis 03-13-07, 05:49 PM	@ TM - Hm. I guess by the strictest possible literal reading of the rules, you can't. I really, really hate the idea of ruling it like that though, since it basically makes it into a 3rd-level Greater Invisibility. Well, a 3rd level greater invis that can't be countered by "see invisibility" & allows for pinpointing. We really should start a list for how many things are better than Greater Invis just on the "See invis works against it" argument alone. -_-
TheMagister 03-13-07, 05:52 PM	@ TM - Hm. I guess by the strictest possible literal reading of the rules, you can't. I really, really hate the idea of ruling it like that though, since it basically makes it into a 3rd-level Greater Invisibility. Zevox I need this in writing in the Courtroom so that I can refer people to it during the course of the IMT.
SauroGrenom 03-13-07, 05:52 PM	@ TM - Hm. I guess by the strictest possible literal reading of the rules, you can't. I really, really hate the idea of ruling it like that though, since it basically makes it into a 3rd-level Greater Invisibility.Well, it's not nearly as good as greater invisibility. Everyone knows where you are. They just cannot hit you with a targeted spell (I think). Arrows can be sent to the correct square and all that. It's really a mix halfway between greater invisibility and displacement. It's weaker than displacement in that is located in space and doesn't move with you.
Zevox 03-13-07, 05:54 PM	Well, it's not nearly as good as greater invisibility. Everyone knows where you are. They just cannot hit you with a targeted spell (I think). Arrows can be sent to the correct square and all that. It's really a mix halfway between greater invisibility and displacement. It's weaker than displacement in that is located in space and doesn't move with you. Um, unless my mind is going, total concealment = no LoS. So if we rule it like that, it follows that it also breaks LoS. Which means yes, its like Greater Invis. Only better, as its 3rd level and, as McJarvis said, not defeated by See Invis. Edit: Yup, right in the SRD. Total Concealment: If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment). Zevox
TheMagister 03-13-07, 05:55 PM	Well, it's not nearly as good as greater invisibility. Everyone knows where you are. They just cannot hit you with a targeted spell (I think). Arrows can be sent to the correct square and all that. It's really a mix halfway between greater invisibility and displacement. It's weaker than displacement in that is located in space and doesn't move with you. Who says that it doesn't move with you? It has a range of 0 ft. If it doesn't move with you, then it can't cover you (since you take up 5 ft all by yourself).
Tellish_of_Ket 03-13-07, 05:56 PM	Um, unless my mind is going, total concealment = no LoS. So if we rule it like that, it follows that it also breaks LoS. Which means yes, its like Greater Invis. Only better, as its 3rd level and, as McJarvis said, not defeated by See Invis. Edit: Yup, right in the SRD. Zevox No, because the power specifically states otherwise. ToK
TheMagister 03-13-07, 05:57 PM	Um, unless my mind is going, total concealment = no LoS. So if we rule it like that, it follows that it also breaks LoS. Which means yes, its like Greater Invis. Only better, as its 3rd level and, as McJarvis said, not defeated by See Invis. Edit: Yup, right in the SRD. Zevox And everyone else gets Greater Invis at 7th level, just like Psywar's get its counterpart at 7th level. Anyhow, a Psywar's 3rd level power is kinda like everyone else's 4th, right? I mean, they only get up to 6th level powers.
Rauul 03-13-07, 06:00 PM	What he's going to do is defeat all the casters who cannot cause another kind of damage. Any of his mounts will allow him to get into range with most opponents to grapple. This strategy rocks on most maps. Basically he becomes immune to all the save or die spells. Against opponents which he cannot defeat in grapple, he has other tricks. So the casters pack Scrolls and Spells of wall of Force.. Ever see a horse run into a wall of force... and his Nightmare will loose it's magical flight while in the anti-magic.. Just remeber all that magical armor he has is non magical in that field.. But then again Blacklight cast, the anti-magic field would supress the blacklight, ride up to the casters/fighters and Dispell the anti-magic and the opponent is blind unless they have a psi-crystal basicly.. Also if he rides into a mage with SR.. he has to beat the Opponents SR to effect him with anti-magic or his touch attacks are gonna be deadly... and Harvey will have to lower his SR to have anti-magic effect him... Granted... Asking for this item the day before the Event is to start is a little on the wrong side.. Considering the Item takes awhile to make... (You would think the elders would wait till after the ironman ended to OK the item)
TelinArtho 03-13-07, 06:01 PM	Against summons there is a CL check against the SR of the creature. The staff casts at CL11, so there's a really good chance the summon cannot get close enough to do anything. I think the major issue is that while in the AMF, the Harvester cannot fly. True enough - though with my SMV summons - I have close to a chance of getting through (SR 17 for Barbazu, SR19 for Achaierai - 30% and 40% respectively). My LPA will be able to get through without an issue though. Granted - the medium air elemental is no match in hand to hand compared to Harvey - but he has something at least...
SauroGrenom 03-13-07, 06:03 PM	Um, unless my mind is going, total concealment = no LoS. So if we rule it like that, it follows that it also breaks LoS. Which means yes, its like Greater Invis. Only better, as its 3rd level and, as McJarvis said, not defeated by See Invis. Edit: Yup, right in the SRD. Zevox Concealing Amorphia has a visible display in one location and fills an area the size of the manifester. Sure you don't have LOS to the caster, but you obviously know where they are, and the power has a location in space instead of moving with manifester. So you cannot move away, and everyone knows where you're at. They just cannot see you in the midst of a translucent amorphous enclosure.
Zevox 03-13-07, 06:04 PM	No, because the power specifically states otherwise. ToK No, it doesn't. Take a look at it - it lacks that specification which Displacement gives, which is the whole reason for this conversation. In fact, its the lack of LoS that prevents targeted effects from working on creatures with total concealment to begin with anyway. And everyone else gets Greater Invis at 7th level, just like Psywar's get its counterpart at 7th level. Anyhow, a Psywar's 3rd level power is kinda like everyone else's 4th, right? I mean, they only get up to 6th level powers. Its also a 3rd level Shaper power, and of course available via Expanded Knowledge to any psionic character. If it gets ruled to work like this, I predict many characters taking a serious look at getting it via EK (including my two Wilders, Annalina and Arden). And know, a Psychic Warrior's 3rd level powers aren't supposed to be like everyone else's 4th level ones. They're supposed to be like 3rd level powers. Psychic Warriors aren't meant to be as good at manifesting as other psionic classes, precisely because they're warriors as well as psions. Zevox
Zevox 03-13-07, 06:07 PM	Concealing Amorphia has a visible display in one location and fills an area the size of the manifester. Sure you don't have LOS to the caster, but you obviously know where they are, and the power has a location in space instead of moving with manifester. So you cannot move away, and everyone knows where you're at. They just cannot see you in the midst of a translucent amorphous enclosure. 1) You can suppress the display. Easily, by the levels most characters get it. 2) The power isn't stationary. Theres nothing in the power that indicates that, as TM said. Zevox
SauroGrenom 03-13-07, 06:17 PM	Who says that it doesn't move with you? It has a range of 0 ft. If it doesn't move with you, then it can't cover you (since you take up 5 ft all by yourself).It's not am emanation. So it's an effect that's located in space. It's got a range of zero, so it just fills your square. You cannot summon it into another square around you someplace. And even if you suppress the display, it's a material display on the power. Everyone can still see the visual effect of the power. In fact that "translucent, amorphous enclosure" is the whole basis of the concealment. To be fooled, you've got to be able to see the enclosure.
TheMagister 03-13-07, 06:26 PM	It's not am emanation. So it's an effect that's located in space. It's got a range of zero, so it just fills your square. You cannot summon it into another square around you someplace. And even if you suppress the display, it's a material display on the power. Everyone can still see the visual effect of the power. In fact that "translucent, amorphous enclosure" is the whole basis of the concealment. To be fooled, you've got to be able to see the enclosure. Sorry, Sauro: It's "centered on you", not on a point in space or an intersection. Since "you" are mobile, and the effect is centered on you and cannot be manifested on a point in space farther than 0' away from you, it is mobile. Usually when something isn't mobile, they go out of their way to say that it's "stationary" (like AMF does).
Zevox 03-13-07, 06:30 PM	Aye, its as TM says. I suspect quite highly that the 0' range is to make sure that only you gain its benefits. Take a look at anything else centered on the character - antimagic field, for instance, has a range of 10', but is "centered on you". The reason for the range: it has a 10' radius. In this case, (Greater) Concealing Amorhpa has a 0' radius, meaning its confined to affecting only the manifester. You can't, for instance, have a tiny creature enter your space to gain its protection, the way they could if it were a 5' radius. Zevox
SauroGrenom 03-13-07, 06:32 PM	Sorry, Sauro: It's "centered on you", not on a point in space or an intersection. Since "you" are mobile, and the effect is centered on you and cannot be manifested on a point in space farther than 0' away from you, it is mobile. Usually when something isn't mobile, they go out of their way to say that it's "stationary" (like AMF does). AMF isn't stationary... *checks* it's an emanation. All effects that travel with the caster are emanations. If it's not an emanation, it's just listed as the effected area and range.
MindWandererB 03-13-07, 06:34 PM	Bah. Anything that "distorts your image" doesn't prevent you from being targeted, IMO. Just another omission by WotC, like the Matter Agitation damage. Concealing Amorpha is phrased even worse with the targeting thing--as written, it has no effect whatsoever. It doesn't affect a target or an area--it has an effect centered on you, but the effect has no area. A house rule is necessary to have the power do anything at all. Re: AMF: There go Besthirah's chances of winning. With Harvey's fast mount, all he has to do is get close, and her lycanthropy will be turned off, making her easy pickings. It'll mess the Arcane Hand up pretty badly, too. Yecch.
SauroGrenom 03-13-07, 06:41 PM	*shrug* Lesser Concealing Amorphia grants cocealment, and greater concealing amorphia grant total concealment. Effectively that means that greater concealing amorphia completely hides you from LOS. No one can see you... Like invisibility or standing in the middle of a blacklight effect. Everyone knows where you are, they see the amorphous sheet that hides you. They just cannot see you inside of it at all. That's the definition of total concealment, and that's what the power grants. Since it doesn't have a range of "Personal", the power is not cast on the manifester. Also since it has no range, the manifester must put it in his square. The power has no "target". It's just located in a square, and provides total concealment for whatever is in that square.
Rauul 03-13-07, 06:42 PM	Bah. Anything that "distorts your image" doesn't prevent you from being targeted, IMO. Just another omission by WotC, like the Matter Agitation damage. Concealing Amorpha is phrased even worse with the targeting thing--as written, it has no effect whatsoever. It doesn't affect a target or an area--it has an effect centered on you, but the effect has no area. A house rule is necessary to have the power do anything at all. Sure you can Target someone in Concealing Amorpha, according to it.. your still got a 20% chance to miss.. or 50% if greater.. Seems identical to a Cloak of Displacement, Minor.. target all you want.. if it takes an attack roll there is a 20% chance to miss.. Magic missile would still strike thou...
Hirumajoe 03-13-07, 06:42 PM	Out of curiosity, what happens to your bonus spells and PP while within an Antimagic field if you're using stat enhancing magic items? Are they forgotten/lost or immediately pop back up once you're outside of the Anti-magic field?
Rauul 03-13-07, 06:45 PM	Out of curiosity, what happens to your bonus spells and PP while within an Antimagic field if you're using stat enhancing magic items? Are they forgotten/lost or immediately pop back up once you're outside of the Anti-magic field? they are suppressed while in the Field, still being timed (for duration) once field goes down.. they are there if their duration hasn't expired
Zevox 03-13-07, 06:49 PM	Since it doesn't have a range of "Personal", the power is not cast on the manifester. Also since it has no range, the manifester must put it in his square. The power has no "target". It's just located in a square, and provides total concealment for whatever is in that square. If you make this argument, you must also apply it to Antimagic Field. It has the same descriptors, just with the note that its 10' in radius. The same goes for spells/powers with the same - Antilife Shell, Repel Vermin, etc, even though only a few of them specify that they are immobile (Globes of Invulnerability and Prismatic Sphere, for instance), while most others do not (Antimagic Field, for instance). *shakes his head* Needless to say, I disagree with you. Zevox
Tellish_of_Ket 03-13-07, 06:50 PM	Out of curiosity, what happens to your bonus spells and PP while within an Antimagic field if you're using stat enhancing magic items? Are they forgotten/lost or immediately pop back up once you're outside of the Anti-magic field? Suppressed while in the area. Bonus spells and the such return upon exit. ToK
hogarth 03-13-07, 06:52 PM	--
Hirumajoe 03-13-07, 06:54 PM	they are suppressed while in the Field, still being timed (for duration) once field goes down.. they are there if their duration hasn't expired I was actually thinking of the ones in your head. :-) The antimagic field isn't surpressing your spells memorized, it surpressing your headband of Int +2 which is giving you a bonus 4th level spell (say). The slot itself presumably dissappear during the AMF, but I'm curious as to whether it comes back filled or not. I'm going to assume filled because that makes book keeping easier, but I could see an argument for the fact that it comes back empty. Since for the duration of the AMF, it simply doesn't exist anymore, as opposed to being surpressed. Edit: And on a related note, how about half sundered item. I.e. Sword +3 has 10 hit points base, plus 30 from being +3. Say its sundered for 20 damage. It enters an AMF, does it now break? And if it does, does it fix itself upon leaving the field? Or if its sundered inside the AMF and breaks (being a non-magical sword) is it fixed upon leaving the field?
SauroGrenom 03-13-07, 07:00 PM	If you make this argument, you must also apply it to Antimagic Field. It has the same descriptors, just with the note that its 10' in radius. The same goes for spells/powers with the same - Antilife Shell, Repel Vermin, etc, even though only a few of them specify that they are immobile (Globes of Invulnerability and Prismatic Sphere, for instance), while most others do not (Antimagic Field, for instance). *shakes his head* Needless to say, I disagree with you. Zevox AMF has this line: "Area: 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you" All the others in your list (anti-life shell, repell vermin ect) are "emanations". Concealing Amorphia is not an emanation. In fact is has no Area at all. And it has no "Target:" either. So what is it? All we have is this: "Effect: Quasi-real amorphous film centered on you" The effect isn't applied to a creature or a target. All spells that have a target of some kind also list SR and Save entries. There is none here. Clearly the power simply take effect in a square determined by the Effect: section. It grant's it effect to whomever is in that square.
Zevox 03-13-07, 07:17 PM	AMF has this line: "Area: 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you" All the others in your list (anti-life shell, repell vermin ect) are "emanations". Concealing Amorphia is not an emanation. In fact is has no Area at all. And it has no "Target:" either. So what is it? All we have is this: "Effect: Quasi-real amorphous film centered on you" The effect isn't applied to a creature or a target. All spells that have a target of some kind also list SR and Save entries. There is none here. Clearly the power simply take effect in a square determined by the Effect: section. It grant's it effect to whomever is in that square. I have no idea how you're making this leap. It clearly cannot be that it grants its effect to anyone in the square its manifested in - to do that, it needs to be stationary with a 5' radius area, and clearly to both of us that last isn't true. It also gives no indication whatsoever that it is stationary (which is why I have no idea how you're making a leap to believing it is, since every other stationary effect in the game says it is such), while it does say that the effect is centered on you, the combination of which leads me to believe it moves with you and is meant to affect only you (hence the 0' range). Look, we're just going to argue in circles here. Lets add it to the ever-growing list of things we need an Elder ruling on and take it to the courtroom. Zevox
Zevox 03-13-07, 07:21 PM	From Prison, RE: Violation: Bobs Yor-Unk'l (ECL3, Papapeperoni) You have a level in monk, but monks must be of lawful alignment, and you are of neutral alignment. You have to either give up the monk level, or change to a lawful alignment and give up the barbarian level. The other option (if you have the credits and an elder says it's legal) is start as nonlawful, take barbarian as your ECL 2, change to lawful, take a level of monk, then change back to nonlawful, but that will cost 10 credits and means you can't go farther as a monk. This is perfectly legal. Before entering the arena, you can make as many assumed alignment switches as you like during your history, at no cost of credits. Only once you have activated in the arena are you stuck with your current one unless you get it changed for credits. Zevox
Tellish_of_Ket 03-13-07, 07:24 PM	From Prison, RE: Violation: Bobs Yor-Unk'l (ECL3, Papapeperoni) This is perfectly legal. Before entering the arena, you can make as many assumed alignment switches as you like during your history, at no cost of credits. Only once you have activated in the arena are you stuck with your current one unless you get it changed for credits. Zevox In this case it's only partially legal. The character should still be marked at (ex-monk), as clearly his monk level was his second level and an aligment change took place. This means, unless he changes his alignment to lawful - something, he can never level as a monk again. ToK
Zevox 03-13-07, 07:27 PM	In this case it's only partially legal. The character should still be marked at (ex-monk), as clearly his monk level was his second level and an aligment change took place. This means, unless he changes his alignment to lawful - something, he can never level as a monk again. ToK Thats not what the violation Yitzi posted was though - the one he posted was no violation at all. Marking himself as an ex-Monk now is a separate issue from whether he can take the levels he has to begin with. *briefly contemplates posting the correct violation himself* Nah, I'll let Yitzi edit his post for it. :) Zevox
TaggIIV 03-13-07, 08:23 PM	how many uses does one poison get? (or if, i assume, it can be used to coat one weapon, how many times can the weapon be used with the poison's effect? and can the same enemy be affected by the same poison more than once?) And is the craft DC for poisons the same as the save DC for it?
Zevox 03-13-07, 08:26 PM	how many uses does one poison get? (or if, i assume, it can be used to coat one weapon, how many times can the weapon be used with the poison's effect? and can the same enemy be affected by the same poison more than once?) One, all around. One poison, one coating on one weapon, one time effect on a creature it hits. And is the craft DC for poisons the same as the save DC for it? Close - its 10+ the save DC. So you need a craft bonus equal to the DC to craft it here, since you're assumed to take 10. Zevox
TaggIIV 03-13-07, 08:31 PM	Ah then I guess one more question - if a weapon is coated with poison and the attack misses, is the poison wasted or does the weapon stay coated until it gets a hit?
Tellish_of_Ket 03-13-07, 08:32 PM	Ah then I guess one more question - if a weapon is coated with poison and the attack misses, is the poison wasted or does the weapon stay coated until it gets a hit? stays coated
Tellish_of_Ket 03-13-07, 11:47 PM	Oddly silent. Everyone must be watching American Idol.....GO BLAKE!!! ToK
Zevox 03-13-07, 11:51 PM	Oddly silent. Everyone must be watching American Idol.....GO BLAKE!!! ToK American Idol? Bah, I'd never waste my time on that. I'm watching a true American Idol - Stephen Colbert :D . Zevox
NiQil 03-13-07, 11:53 PM	Oddly silent. Everyone must be watching American Idol.....GO BLAKE!!! ToK Iffn yer bored, you could always review my most recent addition, Taren Rune. He is similar to the character he replaces, Tamis Ruhl. Wasn't happy with how that one was going, so I tinkered.
Erithmu 03-13-07, 11:57 PM	Keep it quiet in here ... some of us are trying to write papers and study for tests ... *Door Slam* ;)
NiQil 03-13-07, 11:59 PM	Keep it quiet in here ... some of us are trying to write papers and study for tests ... *Door Slam* ;) <best Samuel L Jackson voice> Oh, I'm sorry. Did I break your concentration?
MitzaVolchenko 03-14-07, 12:03 AM	*applauds the impression* C'mon Rith, real life isn't more important than game, is it? Ya know ya just can't resist hitting that refresh button to see if anything new has been posted.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-14-07, 12:04 AM	K, real question. Prolly will need some elder feedback on this one. Forbidance (6th level Cleric) Min caster level 11th = 660 cubic feet, which equals about 130 5' squares. Is this a viable pre-buff? (ie. are we even allowed to prebuff such spells) Do i need to cast 1 casting for each arena type? After the castings and my 3FC, can i mem new spells in those slots and just link the fightboard when i cast them as proof? If i don't need one seperate casting for each arena type, do i specify in my tactics which area is covered (obviously can't tell opponent where it is, lol). ToK
Vathelokai 03-14-07, 12:14 AM	K, real question. Prolly will need some elder feedback on this one. Forbidance (6th level Cleric) Min caster level 11th = 660 cubic feet, which equals about 130 5' squares. Is this a viable pre-buff? (ie. are we even allowed to prebuff such spells) ToKNope. You cannot prebuff anything that directly effects the arena. This falls under the same rule as setting up a bunch of decanter of endless waters as a prebuff to flood the arena. You could cast it after the fight starts, but it will disappear at the end of the fight. Link Limitations on Prebuffs: You may not hold the charge of a touch spell, nor can you keep up concentration long enough to use it as a prebuff. You may not pre-buff with a spell that affects the arena (wall of stone, dimensional lock, decanter of endless water, etc).
Tellish_of_Ket 03-14-07, 12:18 AM	Nope. You cannot prebuff anything that directly effects the arena. This falls under the same rule as setting up a bunch of decanter of endless waters as a prebuff to flood the arena. You could cast it after the fight starts, but it will disappear at the end of the fight.Yechk. Although i like that rule, it would be simply TOO expensive to cast every battle. Ouchies. 17,500gp per fight, is a little steep to afford. ToK
Erithmu 03-14-07, 12:20 AM	<best Samuel L Jackson voice> Oh, I'm sorry. Did I break your concentration? If you broke my concentration, I wouldn't have posted first... ToK did it... *applauds the impression* C'mon Rith, real life isn't more important than game, is it? Ya know ya just can't resist hitting that refresh button to see if anything new has been posted.Lemme just say that it is finals week, and I hate this class that I'm writing for. Why else do you think I'm pressing the refresh button at all. (and for the record ... it is pressing it every 30 seconds.)
Tellish_of_Ket 03-14-07, 01:37 AM	Can you initiate a grapple vs an Air elemental? I could have sworn you couldn't but can't find it anywhere that says otherwise. ToK
MindWandererB 03-14-07, 01:57 AM	Can you initiate a grapple vs an Air elemental? I could have sworn you couldn't but can't find it anywhere that says otherwise. ToK It may be made of air, but it's still considered "solid," (i.e. it's not gaseous). So yeah, you can.
Rauul 03-14-07, 02:06 AM	Question... when you make your leadership Cohort, they are built on a 25 points and no gold correct?
Tellish_of_Ket 03-14-07, 02:55 AM	@Raaul: Correct City Map Question: If someone is in the center square at max elevation, do they have a clear/unobstructed view to each starting square? Or are the interposing buildings also at max height? ToK
hogarth 03-14-07, 06:49 AM	City Map Question: If someone is in the center square at max elevation, do they have a clear/unobstructed view to each starting square? Or are the interposing buildings also at max height? Buildings are 20' (normal) or 40' (towers) high. You may need to do some trigonometry or draw some diagrams to figure out lines of sight, unfortunately. Someone short standing right next to a 20' building will be hard to see (for instance).
templer10 03-14-07, 07:49 AM	Iffn yer bored, you could always review my most recent addition, Taren Rune. He is similar to the character he replaces, Tamis Ruhl. Wasn't happy with how that one was going, so I tinkered. skill focus concetration? ( :confused: scraching head trying to understand) - if you want +3 concatration why not take a psi crystal with that bonus and get a mini alley to boot also. also - you might want to rethink force screen as a known power, you can cheaply get ML1 or ML2 stones for 25/50 gp and even when you can afford to augment force screen (level 5) it's not worth to spend the extra pps. now vigor is always usefull and cheap to use but not so cheap to buy the stones for.
Erithmu 03-14-07, 07:53 AM	skill focus concetration? ( :confused: scraching head trying to understand) - if you want +3 concatration why not take a psi crystal with that bonus and get a mini alley to boot also.Not to mention it leads nicely into the psi containment that Hood uses. Extra focii are always good.
templer10 03-14-07, 07:58 AM	question - by the transperancy rules- do having SR means i also have PR?
TheMagister 03-14-07, 08:02 AM	Yep.
TheMagister 03-14-07, 09:38 AM	I knew there was something bothering me about this. Unless they're in the habit of walking around without a weapon in their primary hand (like a monk), no class could take advantage of both the feat deflect arrows and a buckler's arrow deflection enchantment in the same round. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don't get the buckler's AC bonus for the rest of the round. By association, you wouldn't get the buckler's Arrow Deflection ability if you used that hand to Deflect Arrows (feat) in the same round. You'd have to pick one. If you had your primary hand free (holding nothing), you could deflect with that hand and then deflect with the buckler/shield. Something to consider, I guess, and small consolation to an archer.
hogarth 03-14-07, 10:26 AM	Unless they're in the habit of walking around without a weapon in their primary hand (like a monk), no class could take advantage of both the feat deflect arrows and a buckler's arrow deflection enchantment in the same round. By association, you wouldn't get the buckler's Arrow Deflection ability if you used that hand to Deflect Arrows (feat) in the same round. You'd have to pick one. I don't understand how that quote is supposed to bar you from using your hand to deflect arrows. Deflect arrows is not a weapon, as far as I understand, so you still get the buckler's AC bonus. Even if it were, the Arrow Deflection property doesn't say that the shield has to be providing an AC bonus in order to function; it just "protects the wielder".
Tellish_of_Ket 03-14-07, 10:58 AM	I'll agree with Hogarth. There isn't anything saying you need to be benefiting from the AC to gain benefits from a shields property. And besides, a buckler is pretty wield-worthy. You can have a free hand, and still gain the AC benefits. ToK
McJarvis 03-14-07, 01:54 PM	Question regarding creds: If I started a ranger character & wanted to later turn him into a Planar Ranger for the purposes of animal companions, could I do it after leveling him up to Ranger 4 instead of paying the 10 creds up front?
SauroGrenom 03-14-07, 02:11 PM	Question regarding creds: If I started a ranger character & wanted to later turn him into a Planar Ranger for the purposes of animal companions, could I do it after leveling him up to Ranger 4 instead of paying the 10 creds up front? Yep
McJarvis 03-14-07, 02:19 PM	Erm... Instead of asking whether I can, can someone just tell me why Truestrike doesn't apply a +20 bonus to every single attack you make with manyshot? (by strict wording-> Truestrike adds +20 to a single attack roll & manyshot only uses a single attack roll....?)
Rauul 03-14-07, 02:21 PM	I understand that the Leader has to outfit a leadership cohort, with everything.. and i assume that their expendable cap is your cap. Since they use what you give them.. And they can't craft or make scrolls but can be the NPC spellcaster to help you craft items. Just trying to clarify what i read to make sure.. since this is new to me
Macbrea 03-14-07, 02:26 PM	Expendable limit is for the entire character including Cohort and other Allies. Your cohort cannot craft for you or himself because he doesn't get a free or full action at all.
hogarth 03-14-07, 02:27 PM	I understand that the Leader has to outfit a leadership cohort, with everything.. and i assume that their expendable cap is your cap. Since they use what you give them.. And they can't craft or make scrolls but can be the NPC spellcaster to help you craft items. Is this true? I.e. can Reginald Molehusband's cohort help him create a dorje using her powers known instead of his? EDIT: I see the answer is "no".
Erithmu 03-14-07, 02:27 PM	I understand that the Leader has to outfit a leadership cohort, with everything.. and i assume that their expendable cap is your cap. Since they use what you give them.. And they can't craft or make scrolls but can be the NPC spellcaster to help you craft items. Just trying to clarify what i read to make sure.. since this is new to me Yes yes they can't craft, however the CoCo has no NPC spellcaster allowance for crafting (ie crafter must have feat and spell in order to craft) This prevents abuse from having a wizard w/ cleric cohort and crafting everything via the wizard.
MindWandererB 03-14-07, 02:29 PM	Erm... Instead of asking whether I can, can someone just tell me why Truestrike doesn't apply a +20 bonus to every single attack you make with manyshot? (by strict wording-> Truestrike adds +20 to a single attack roll & manyshot only uses a single attack roll....?)It should. Who said otherwise?I'll agree with Hogarth. There isn't anything saying you need to be benefiting from the AC to gain benefits from a shields property. And besides, a buckler is pretty wield-worthy. You can have a free hand, and still gain the AC benefits. ToKNot to mention, you could always opt to use the shield's Deflection first, and your feat second. (And Return Shot third!)
McJarvis 03-14-07, 03:34 PM	It should. Who said otherwise? My inner-rules nerfer. Methinks Hood should take a level of wizard and pick up some metamagic rods of quicken ;)
TheMagister 03-14-07, 03:45 PM	Nope. Guess what else? If you found a way to make a 1st level sorcerer into a warmind 5, it'd apply to everything the warmind hit with a sweeping strike... Helllloooooo POWER ATTACK.
Rauul 03-14-07, 03:48 PM	hmm ranger with 1 sor.. *runs to see what it looks like on paper*
Tellish_of_Ket 03-14-07, 03:50 PM	Ya, it's pretty common in Living Greyhawk to see melee powerhouses with a dip in arcane casting. With quickdraw, and holding to their rod of lesser quickened, they quicken true strike, drop, draw big bad uber-weapon, and full power attack with combat expertise. Which would prolly be followed by a cleave if there was an opponent nearby. It's not broken. ToK *EDIT hmm ranger with 1 sor.. *runs to see what it looks like on paper* Ranger with 1 simple-battle sorc Large Horse mount. Enlarge person, share with mount. Bit bow, big arrows, big horse.
McJarvis 03-14-07, 03:53 PM	Ranger with 1 simple-battle sorc Large Horse mount. Enlarge person, share with mount. Bit bow, big arrows, big horse. I believe there is a dashingly handsome forum member that is already doing something exactly like that...
Rauul 03-14-07, 03:56 PM	Ya, it's pretty common in Living Greyhawk to see melee powerhouses with a dip in arcane casting. With quickdraw, and holding to their rod of lesser quickened, they quicken true strike, drop, draw big bad uber-weapon, and full power attack with combat expertise. Which would prolly be followed by a cleave if there was an opponent nearby. It's not broken. ToK *EDIT Ranger with 1 simple-battle sorc Large Horse mount. Enlarge person, share with mount. Bit bow, big arrows, big horse. Acually thats 2 straight forward for me. (coming from a player with 2 failure tags on his first 2 charaters) i prefer to make them wonder what i am gonna do.. (guess i haven't made them wonder to much)
Erithmu 03-14-07, 04:00 PM	I believe there is a dashingly handsome forum member that is already doing something exactly like that... Faelto? ... I'm not sure about the dashing part ...
Tellish_of_Ket 03-14-07, 04:03 PM	Acually thats 2 straight forward for me. (coming from a player with 2 failure tags on his first 2 charaters) i prefer to make them wonder what i am gonna do.. (guess i haven't made them wonder to much) Actually, we wonder if you're gonna win. LOL I am so cruel. :rofl: You know i'm kidding right...right?......right? ToK
McJarvis 03-14-07, 04:06 PM	Acually thats 2 straight forward for me. (coming from a player with 2 failure tags on his first 2 charaters) i prefer to make them wonder what i am gonna do.. (guess i haven't made them wonder to much) If it makes you feel any better, I don't think I had a single win to my name during my first run with CoCo. This second time has been like magic-> I like to think it's because college made me da smarter person ;)
McJarvis 03-14-07, 04:07 PM	Faelto? ... I'm not sure about the dashing part ... Note that I was talking about the owner & not the character ;) Telin so hunky la~!
hogarth 03-14-07, 04:08 PM	If it makes you feel any better, I don't think I had a single win to my name during my first run with CoCo. This second time has been like magic-> I like to think it's because college made me da smarter person ;) More likely it's because you haven't fought with the big boys yet. Aren't all of your arena character <= ECL 4?
McJarvis 03-14-07, 04:10 PM	More likely it's because you haven't fought with the big boys yet. Aren't all of your arena character <= ECL 4? TIM is ECL 5, soon to be 6. That aside, there were quite a few screw-ups back when I left the first time...I was just among them.
Erithmu 03-14-07, 04:10 PM	Note that I was talking about the owner & not the character ;) Telin so hunky la~! Heh ... nice save ... that response took a little too long ...:P
McJarvis 03-14-07, 04:11 PM	Heh ... nice save ... that response took a little too long ...:P I'm at work..I'm not allowed to just forum watch all day!(my boss walks by occassionally)
hogarth 03-14-07, 04:26 PM	TIM is ECL 5, soon to be 6. That aside, there were quite a few screw-ups back when I left the first time...I was just among them. But TIM hasn't fought an ECL 5 arena fight yet, has he? That's what I meant.
McJarvis 03-14-07, 04:40 PM	But TIM hasn't fought an ECL 5 arena fight yet, has he? That's what I meant. Unfortunately, no...but I think he'll be undergoing some major revisions before he fights again. If he wins the mission he's currently on he'll be catapulted into ECL 6...where he'll find more questing via leadership :( All this talk of Truestrike/many shot makes me wanna spend credits & remove his skill focus//apply the PBS/Rapid Shot/Multishot feat chain to him, though...
TheMagister 03-14-07, 04:45 PM	You might wanna ask me a little about that: it's hard to pump up a manyshot without many, many rounds of buffing. Still, if it's only going to be used as a backup to the huge/charging/lance thing, then it's probably a good idea. A 2d8+str+enh is a good solid ranged attack. TM
McJarvis 03-14-07, 04:55 PM	You might wanna ask me a little about that: it's hard to pump up a manyshot without many, many rounds of buffing. Still, if it's only going to be used as a backup to the huge/charging/lance thing, then it's probably a good idea. A 2d8+str+enh is a good solid ranged attack. TM TIM's biggest problems right now(in my eyes) is a notable complete lack of defense(via saves/AC etc) & his need to buff. The bow is definately something I want to tap into, though, because when he's enlarged it's 2d8+7 per shot...apply to a manyshot with true strike & it should be a nice way for him to work with his opponent being farther away than a single-move out of melee. Granted, he only gets 4d8+14 damage out of the true strike spell.... =\ [[assuming I don't pump his bow or str any more before I reach level 9 when I would get many shot)
TheMagister 03-14-07, 05:04 PM	Whoa...I forgot about enlarge. Watch that Dex! If it goes below 17 you can't manyshot. And a bow already does a 1d8. If you enlarge, it's 2d6/arrow. So 4d6+7 would be the enlarged manyshot. I've thought about enlarging Hood...
Rauul 03-14-07, 05:05 PM	Actually, we wonder if you're gonna win. LOL I am so cruel. :rofl: You know i'm kidding right...right?......right? ToK Smacks ToK Sure i will win... someday... some place.. But honestly.. My Rauul Darkstar is a Cleric of Vecna.. Knowledge is his thing... and win or loose he grows with that Knowledge (looses = slow growth) and i will keep him active even if he was at 2 wins 50 looses.. just because.. Now my Half-orc whos name i can't spell.. was my first jaunt into psionics... can't say he is doing to bad.. (no failure tag yet) But i see where i made mistakes now... so he may go home to the orc tribes soon.. Soo Pffffttt The cleric wins by loosing!!!
TheMagister 03-14-07, 05:07 PM	Re: Hood and Expansion: Hood's actually high enough level to grow to HUGE size with Expansion. Used in conjunction with Animal Affinity (Dex) his to-hit would stay the same, and the manyshot damage would go from 2d8 to 6d6. It's a thought. (and an anti-grappler strategem. Hmmm...) TM
Tellish_of_Ket 03-14-07, 05:10 PM	I went 0-4 my with my first character in the arena. Then 4-4 with my second...of course then as i learned and adapted that character at one time was also the champion of the CoCo...until i took 4 montsh off for marriage, family and ugly stuff like that, which allowed others to surpass me. You can't learn if you don't make mistakes. I've built a couple of real flops over the time...Hurtz and Brock are probably my worst. They worked extremely well in TT games, but CoCo is a different ball-game. In fact a hurtz-like pc, is my iconinc Living Greyhawk character and is nearly impossible to kill. +23 all saves, SR 20, AC 50+. ToK
MindWandererB 03-14-07, 05:16 PM	Re: Hood and Expansion: Hood's actually high enough level to grow to HUGE size with Expansion. Used in conjunction with Animal Affinity (Dex) his to-hit would stay the same, and the manyshot damage would go from 2d8 to 6d6. It's a thought. (and an anti-grappler strategem. Hmmm...) TM Not quite. Expansion to Large gives you a -2 to hit (1 size, 1 Dex), and Huge gives you twice that, so even Animal Affinity would only compensate for the Dex loss.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-14-07, 05:19 PM	Re: Hood and Expansion: Hood's actually high enough level to grow to HUGE size with Expansion. Used in conjunction with Animal Affinity (Dex) his to-hit would stay the same, and the manyshot damage would go from 2d8 to 6d6. It's a thought. (and an anti-grappler strategem. Hmmm...) TM Execpt that expansion follows our CoCo rules like polymorph. You can only grow 1 size category higher. So sayeth the catmaster. ToK
Zevox 03-14-07, 05:23 PM	Execpt that expansion follows our CoCo rules like polymorph. You can only grow 1 size category higher. So sayeth the catmaster. ToK Erm, no. It isn't a spell from the polymorph line, nor does it duplicate their effects. It even expressly allows growing larger for an augmentation cost. Its perfectly legal to grow more than one size category with that power. Cat has even allowed it in his campaign, if you need proof beyond that simple reasoning. Zevox
TheMagister 03-14-07, 05:23 PM	I'm talking about an augmented Expansion (7pp), not a combination of two expansions. Basically, if you pump 7 pp into the 1st level power Expansion, it makes the benefit change from, "Your size increases to the next highest size category" to "You increase two size categories". So it's not two effects that cause the hugeness, it's one. TM
Erithmu 03-14-07, 05:24 PM	Execpt that expansion follows our CoCo rules like polymorph. You can only grow 1 size category higher. So sayeth the catmaster. ToK *Points to Cat's campaign where Kracknol grew to huge, and had a huge icon on the map...* I think those rules are more along the lines of if polymorph changes your size, you can't further expand from that unless you go to a size larger than the polymorphed form.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-14-07, 05:24 PM	Erm, no. It isn't a spell from the polymorph line, nor does it duplicate their effects. It even expressly allows growing larger for an augmentation cost. Its perfectly legal to grow more than one size category with that power. Cat has even allowed it in his campaign, if you need proof beyond that simple reasoning. Zevox Then i have been duped.!!! lol. If it's changed...i guess it's fair game. There was a time it wasn't allowed. Man, i feel so OLD!! ToK
TheMagister 03-14-07, 05:24 PM	Erm, no. It isn't a spell from the polymorph line, nor does it duplicate their effects. It even expressly allows growing larger for an augmentation cost. Its perfectly legal to grow more than one size category with that power. Cat has even allowed it in his campaign, if you need proof beyond that simple reasoning. Zevox Easy on him. He's not too familiar with psionics yet, especially with the particular powers. Augmentation was especially hard for me to grasp when I first started learning psionics here.
McJarvis 03-14-07, 06:53 PM	Then i have been duped.!!! lol. If it's changed...i guess it's fair game. There was a time it wasn't allowed. Man, i feel so OLD!! ToK 'Aye, until this conversation I thought Expansion still was on the outlaw list of things that make you grow more than one size increment as well. It's not that ToK is unfamiliar with psionics-> there was a time when the CoCo rules specifically said "Expansion can't make you grow more than one size increment" @TM: I find it delightfully ironic that TIM and Hood are in the same guild, since it looks like with minor tweaks they would be psionic/arcane versions of each other. edit-> And an anti-grappler strategy... Did Gummi scare you? :-)
Tellish_of_Ket 03-14-07, 07:09 PM	'Aye, until this conversation I thought Expansion still was on the outlaw list of things that make you grow more than one size increment as well. It's not that ToK is unfamiliar with psionics-> there was a time when the CoCo rules specifically said "Expansion can't make you grow more than one size increment" @TM: I find it delightfully ironic that TIM and Hood are in the same guild, since it looks like with minor tweaks they would be psionic/arcane versions of each other. edit-> Did Gummi scare you? :-) Actually, i'm very unfamiliar with psionics. Other than a few level 1 tatoos, that's about all the knowledge i have. Why do you think i had Jur take force of will and closed mind? I just didn't really want to have to deal with it. Call it psi-phobia. ToK
McJarvis 03-14-07, 07:35 PM	Actually, i'm very unfamiliar with psionics. Other than a few level 1 tatoos, that's about all the knowledge i have. Why do you think i had Jur take force of will and closed mind? I just didn't really want to have to deal with it. Call it psi-phobia. ToK "Though shalt not reveal the ignorance of the faculty old-timers in CoCo."
McJarvis 03-14-07, 09:25 PM	Came up during the MQ, figured I'd ask the tavarn first: Can you announce power attack & then do things other than attacking, so that your power attack modifiers apply to AoO's?
MindWandererB 03-14-07, 09:38 PM	Came up during the MQ, figured I'd ask the tavarn first: Can you announce power attack & then do things other than attacking, so that your power attack modifiers apply to AoO's? Looks to me like you can--you can even announce it at the end of your turn, as long as it's still your turn and you haven't attacked yet.
False_Keraptis 03-14-07, 09:49 PM	Are diplomacy allies allowed at ECL 4? Based on this text from the quickstart guide, it sounds like they are not, but I can't find anything about it in the actual ally rules. What to Expect in ECL 5 By now, you have the vast majority of the rules down. By the time you reach ECL 5, you will have had plenty of time to read the full set of rules. There's no holds barred from now on--you get the full CoCo experience! * Allies. You've had access to class allies and purchased allies up until now. At ECL 5, you gain access to whole new categories: allies obtained with Diplomacy, with Handle Animal, and with the Leadership feat. You don't have to have them (and in fact many characters won't be eligible for them), but they can be a tremendous advantage. Read up on them here and here. You can also hire mercenaries from the mercenaries' guild using the same rules.
Zevox 03-14-07, 10:05 PM	Are diplomacy allies allowed at ECL 4? Based on this text from the quickstart guide, it sounds like they are not, but I can't find anything about it in the actual ally rules. The quickstart guide is where info on specific prohibitions for levels 4 and 5 are (for some reason it was never added to the general rules). The quote you gave is pretty explicit - no allies other than purchased or class ones before level 5. Zevox
Sutro 03-15-07, 01:39 AM	Per the Kobold entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/kobold.htm) in the SRD, kobolds' ECL for those that have levels in NPC classes is calculated at ECL-2. So when Weapon takes a level of Warrior next level, she'll drop down to the ECL 3 bracket. Is that kosher, or have I missed something in the Prison rulings against this?
NiQil 03-15-07, 02:17 AM	Per the Kobold entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/kobold.htm) in the SRD, kobolds' ECL for those that have levels in NPC classes is calculated at ECL-2. So when Weapon takes a level of Warrior next level, she'll drop down to the ECL 3 bracket. Is that kosher, or have I missed something in the Prison rulings against this? Are you referring to this? Challenge Rating Kobolds with levels in NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level -3. If so...you might wanna reread it. If not, then I encourage you to post the quote you are referring to, as I see nothing else that mentions what you are referring to in the link you posted.
Sutro 03-15-07, 02:25 AM	Oh, oops. I was reading Monsters as Races (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/monstersAsRaces.htm) and thought that in there it mentioned CR. It didn't. Although I've got to say that a Warrior 1/caster class 5 kobold would make a nasty, nasty monster for the monster table.
Sindorin 03-15-07, 02:28 AM	Actually, i'm very unfamiliar with psionics. Other than a few level 1 tatoos, that's about all the knowledge i have. Why do you think i had Jur take force of will and closed mind? I just didn't really want to have to deal with it. Call it psi-phobia. ToK Definitely check out Psionic Hole.
sonofzeal 03-15-07, 02:35 AM	Oh, oops. I was reading Monsters as Races (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/monstersAsRaces.htm) and thought that in there it mentioned CR. It didn't. Although I've got to say that a Warrior 1/caster class 5 kobold would make a nasty, nasty monster for the monster table. Unless you interpret it as meaning that ALL the levels must be in NPC classes. In that case, I'd go with Expert1/Adept1/WarriorX and invest heavily in wands/scrolls.
Sutro 03-15-07, 02:41 AM	Regardless, I sense strong cheese in that CR reduction. Limburger, even. Somewhere. I shall look to McJarvis to ferret it out for me then shamefully copy it for my own use.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-15-07, 02:47 AM	Definitely check out Psionic Hole. Yeah...i drooled when i first saw that...sadly unattainable for me. Con 12, and that's already including -3 age. There are those with MASSIVE power pools that it wouldn't really hurt that much, and doesn't make me more resistant. I chose to go with the uber-resistance rather that extra point cost. Besides, as i grow more and more insane my wisdom bonus drops, making the feat less and less effective as i level. If i had 15 con, i would definately still take it as my next feat. But no-can-do. ToK
McJarvis 03-15-07, 07:12 AM	Regardless, I sense strong cheese in that CR reduction. Limburger, even. Somewhere. I shall look to McJarvis to ferret it out for me then shamefully copy it for my own use. Sayth my name and I shall appear. (that's right folks-> I'm a 20th level Truth-speaker..which is directly related to truenamers) Reducing their CR doesn't matter much since they advance by character class. CoCo will always look at their ECL over their CR. (we only keep track of CR for creatures that have no ECL)
Hirumajoe 03-15-07, 08:27 AM	Sayth my name and I shall appear. (that's right folks-> I'm a 20th level Truth-speaker..which is directly related to truenamers) Reducing their CR doesn't matter much since they advance by character class. CoCo will always look at their ECL over their CR. (we only keep track of CR for creatures that have no ECL) Umm... We do? I thought HA, diplomacy, and purchased allies were done only by CR, not ECL? Only Leadership allies do the ECL thing? Then why do we have ECL 7 characters running around with ECL 6 Pegasus mounts? Like Istima (was) and so forth? Edit: Uh oh. I just checked the rules and looks like McJarvis is right. Unless there's a ruling somewhere else... Explanation: What does Aecl>ECL-2 mean? If all of your Allies have an ECL (ECL=LA+HD), then you should simply add their ECLs together. The result must be at least 2 less than your own ECL. So, for example, our ECL 10 cleric could have a single ECL 8 cohort, or two ECL 3 and one ECL 2 ally, or any other combination adding up to 8 (his ECL-2). That is meant by Aecl>ECL-2. Umm... We have (and had) several illegal characters it looks like... And all those debates about CR vs ECL leadership being available earlier or later are kinda moot. Pegasus shouldn't be allowed until the ECL 8 bracket and Griffons until the ECL 12...
hogarth 03-15-07, 08:34 AM	Umm... We do? I thought HA, diplomacy, and purchased allies were done only by CR, not ECL? Only Leadership allies do the ECL thing? Then why do we have ECL 7 characters running around with ECL 6 Pegasus mounts? Like Istima (was) and so forth? A kobold isn't a permissible HA, Diplomacy or purchased ally, though. You could (in theory) have a kobold with NPC classes in the monster table, though; I proposed a kobold expert 4 (CR 1) with a dire weasel (CR 2) to be added to the EL 3 table, for instance. PCs, cohorts, and mercenaries use ECL as far as I know. Umm... We have (and had) several illegal characters it looks like... And all those debates about CR vs ECL leadership being available earlier or later are kinda moot. I was told that if a creature has an ECL, you use that for PCs and leadership cohorts, but not for purchased/Diplomacy/HA allies (since the purchased/Diplomacy/HA allies don't use a good point buy and they can't be advanced with class levels). Some people find that argument convincing and some don't.
Hirumajoe 03-15-07, 08:39 AM	I was told that if a creature has an ECL, you use that for PCs and leadership cohorts, but not for purchased/Diplomacy/HA allies (since the purchased/Diplomacy/HA allies don't use a good point buy and they can't be advanced with class levels). Some people find that argument convincing and some don't. In which case someone should really update the rules of Gladius thread, since thats explicitly not what is written.
hogarth 03-15-07, 08:43 AM	In which case someone should really update the rules of Gladius thread, since thats explicitly not what is written. PM Caterane and he can add it to the list of eleventy-gazillion unwritten rules that contradict the written Rules of Gladius. ;) Here's my favorite CR/ECL example: a young white dragon is CR 4, but ECL 12. Obviously using a 25 point buy adds 8 levels' worth of effectiveness. :P
Hirumajoe 03-15-07, 08:45 AM	PM Caterane and he can add it to the list of eleventy-gazillion unwritten rules that contradict the written Rules of Gladius. ;) Here's my favorite CR/ECL example: a young white dragon is CR 4, but ECL 12. Obviously using a 25 point buy adds 8 levels' worth of effectiveness. :P I wonder if just making a ton of prison posts and quoting the Rules of Gladius in each post would be more effective in getting it updated... Besides using ECL does make more sense for character allies, since the old arguement that CR is lower because you're only getting the benefits of the creature for 1 fight aren't true... You are getting the benefits every fight you bring them. Edit: Actually... Has there ever been a negative LA published? Why not limit allies simply to ECL. Their HD. Give all allies the elite array if makes you feel better (purchased, diplomacy, HA) Since there have to be very few monsters with ECL below their CR... Edit 2: Actually, in D&D, are monsters every referenced by CR? Certainly not in spell effects or by feats. Its always HD or ECL. Twice your HD in undead, or 6 HD planar ally, or ECL cohort. Or they give you a very specific table. CR isn't a game mechanic, its a guide for the DM in difficulty and handing out experience. I think a quite reasonable solution to all the ally problems is use ECL in all cases, treating no LA as +0. Its certainly not perfect, since - LA creatures will be stronger than listed ones, but at least they'd be put off until higher levels than they are now.
McJarvis 03-15-07, 09:11 AM	edit: Actually... Has there ever been a negative LA published? Yes, but only once. And it wasn't in core. And I can't remember where it was.(FR maybe?)
templer10 03-15-07, 09:13 AM	Yes, but only once. And it wasn't in core. And I can't remember where it was.(FR maybe?) awakened golem if iremmber correctly - MM2 or 3.
Zevox 03-15-07, 10:52 AM	Re: Allies - Sorry guys, but the initial idea there was 100% correct. The only allies that use ECL are leadership and leadership-like ones (i.e. Thrallherd's Thralls and Thaumaturgist's Planar Cohort), and of course mercenaries. For handle animal allies, none of them have an LA, since all are animals or magical beasts with animal-level intelligence. For Diplomacy allies, they are specifically made exceptions to that rule: These allies always use their CR to determine the maxCA (this is an exception to the normal rule that LA creatures uses their ECL). And for purchased ones, though it isn't outright stated as it is with Diplomacy allies, note that several of the rules for them would be impossible if it were otherwise - for instance, Elite Array is available for purchase on all of them, and it raises CR by 1, but has no effect on ECL; and the rules also talk about advancing them raising their CR, but not ECL. They're also specifically prohibited from advancing in anything but racial HD, which would be one of the benefits they should get if they used ECL. So yeah, the only thing that seems to be a contradiction in there is the purchased allies, and theres plenty of evidence implying they use CR, not ECL, already. A quick PM to Cat would probably get the specific exception for them put into words there. Zevox
hogarth 03-15-07, 10:55 AM	awakened golem if iremmber correctly - MM2 or 3. The incarnate construct template (-2 LA) is from Savage Species (3.0). The Epic Level Handbook (also 3.0) listed a bunch of negative level adjustments as well.
templer10 03-15-07, 01:16 PM	when buying scrolls- can they be beyond minimum level caster level?
Zevox 03-15-07, 01:20 PM	when buying scrolls- can they be beyond minimum level caster level? Yup. Zevox
Rauul 03-15-07, 01:45 PM	So when having a Charater with Multiple choices of Allies(undead) and cohorts(slaves) to bring in... and hearing they have to choosen before the pairings. (really don't understand that part) Can i have an Attack Prebuff, and a defend prebuff on the sheet?
Zevox 03-15-07, 01:49 PM	So when having a Charater with Multiple choices of Allies(undead) and cohorts(slaves) to bring in... and hearing they have to choosen before the pairings. (really don't understand that part) Can i have an Attack Prebuff, and a defend prebuff on the sheet? :confused: Eh, could be a bit more specific on what you mean? I'm a bit lost with your meaning of "attack prebuff" and "defend prebuff". Zevox
MitzaVolchenko 03-15-07, 01:50 PM	So when having a Charater with Multiple choices of Allies(undead) and cohorts(slaves) to bring in... and hearing they have to choosen before the pairings. (really don't understand that part) Can i have an Attack Prebuff, and a defend prebuff on the sheet? No. Or rather you can have as many of the skill packages as you like. Your allies cannot change based on attack or defend, unless the Elders want to rule that differently.
Rauul 03-15-07, 01:58 PM	:confused: Eh, could be a bit more specific on what you mean? I'm a bit lost with your meaning of "attack prebuff" and "defend prebuff". Zevox You have Attack packages and defend packages traps outmanuver ect.. can i set up a charater without attack/defense packages with seperate prebuffs depending on if they are attacking or defending Example in pairings Corrupter vs Pale rider (example) Corrupter is the attacker.. would bring his allies for attacking... If The parings were. Pale Rider vs Corrupter then Corrupter would bring in his defending prebuff allies Just a way to seperate the Allies in MY head.. Wanted to know if it was legal is all... Also need to know if a cart/wagon is legal to bring into the arena fights.. and if there are stats anywhere for the item..
Zevox 03-15-07, 02:05 PM	You have Attack packages and defend packages traps outmanuver ect.. can i set up a charater without attack/defense packages with seperate prebuffs depending on if they are attacking or defending Example in pairings Corrupter vs Pale rider (example) Corrupter is the attacker.. would bring his allies for attacking... If The parings were. Pale Rider vs Corrupter then Corrupter would bring in his defending prebuff allies Just a way to seperate the Allies in MY head.. Wanted to know if it was legal is all... Huh - thats never come up before to my knowledge. Well, the whole point of prebuffing allies is that your opponent gets to know what to write tactics against, so I suppose in principle it might be okay. I'd say ask the Elders though, just to be sure. Also need to know if a cart/wagon is legal to bring into the arena fights.. and if there are stats anywhere for the item.. Never heard of stats for that, that much I can say. Don't know if you'd be allowed to nab one given theres no rules about them, so how much hp, hardness, how fast it could be moved, what action such would take, how much it could carry, etc would be problematic items. I'd default to "not happening" myself, but again, ask the Elders to be sure. Zevox
Abyssal Stalker 03-15-07, 02:13 PM	Huh - thats never come up before to my knowledge. Well, the whole point of prebuffing allies is that your opponent gets to know what to write tactics against, so I suppose in principle it might be okay. I'd say ask the Elders though, just to be sure. Never heard of stats for that, that much I can say. Don't know if you'd be allowed to nab one given theres no rules about them, so how much hp, hardness, how fast it could be moved, what action such would take, how much it could carry, etc would be problematic items. I'd default to "not happening" myself, but again, ask the Elders to be sure. Zevox Just ask Macbrea. Do a little digging and you might find a long-gone orc called Gorak Razorfang... Ring any bells? ;) Edit: Here is Gorak's little helper. Waag, Light Warhorse (150 gp) with Chariot (cart) Large Animal Hit Points: 22 [3*4.5+9=22; 3d8+9 HD] AC: 20 [+1 Dex, -1 Size, +4 Natural,+6 armor], Touch 10, Flat 19 [+6 Padded Leather] Initiative: +1 [+1 Dex] BAB/Grap: +2/+9 [+2 BAB, +3 Str, +4 Size] Speed: Land 40' [Base 60 - 20' Encumbered] Attack: Hoof +4 melee (1d4+3) Full Attack: 2 hooves +4 melee (1d4+3) and bite -1 melee (1d3+1) Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks & Special Qualities: - Abilities: Low-light vision, scent STR 16 +3 DEX 13 +1 CON 17 +3 INT 2 -4 WIS 13 +1 CHA 6 -2 Saves: Fort +6 [+3 Animal + 3 Con ] Refx +4 [+3 Animal + 1 Dex ] Will +2 [+1 Animal + 1 Wis ] Skills: Listen +4, Spot (6 rnks) +18 Feats: Endurance, Run Encumbrance: 0-230 lbs (light), 231-460 lbs (medium), 461-690 lbs(heavy) Tricks: Fighting Package (attack, down, and stay), Heavy Labor Package (come and work), Defend Equipment: Chariot (cart)[15 gp][200 lbs],Masterwork Banded Mail Barding [575 gp crafted][70 lbs] And here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8384121#post8384121) is the whole story...
TelinArtho 03-15-07, 02:14 PM	@Rauul - currently you cannot change your allies according to whether you are defending or attacking. If you want to see that changed, petition the change to the Council and see what the elders think of it. Include all things ally related with it - and that would include traps.
Rauul 03-15-07, 02:33 PM	@Rauul - currently you cannot change your allies according to whether you are defending or attacking. If you want to see that changed, petition the change to the Council and see what the elders think of it. Include all things ally related with it - and that would include traps. So your telling me that Traps (a defend only Package) you take the Allies penaty even if your attacking since you can't have an if/than prebuff section? that seems kinds flacky... but ok will run to the court room to address this
McJarvis 03-15-07, 02:35 PM	So your telling me that Traps (a defend only Package) you take the Allies penaty even if your attacking since you can't have an if/than prebuff section? that seems kinds flacky... but ok will run to the court room to address this Welcome to the "reason why no one is using traps yet" When every trap has a point-blank 50% miss chance(assault or defend) on top of other factors, why would I want to use a trap? =\
MindWandererB 03-15-07, 02:41 PM	So your telling me that Traps (a defend only Package) you take the Allies penaty even if your attacking since you can't have an if/than prebuff section? that seems kinds flacky... but ok will run to the court room to address this Actually, no--you don't take the penalty, but you also can't sub in another ally. It's a reasonable option if you don't have any other allies anyway.
Macbrea 03-15-07, 02:42 PM	Just ask Macbrea. Do a little digging and you might find a long-gone orc called Gorak Razorfang... Ring any bells? ;) Edit: Here is Gorak's little helper. Waag, Light Warhorse (150 gp) with Chariot (cart) Large Animal Hit Points: 22 [3*4.5+9=22; 3d8+9 HD] AC: 20 [+1 Dex, -1 Size, +4 Natural,+6 armor], Touch 10, Flat 19 [+6 Padded Leather] Initiative: +1 [+1 Dex] BAB/Grap: +2/+9 [+2 BAB, +3 Str, +4 Size] Speed: Land 40' [Base 60 - 20' Encumbered] Attack: Hoof +4 melee (1d4+3) Full Attack: 2 hooves +4 melee (1d4+3) and bite -1 melee (1d3+1) Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks & Special Qualities: - Abilities: Low-light vision, scent STR 16 +3 DEX 13 +1 CON 17 +3 INT 2 -4 WIS 13 +1 CHA 6 -2 Saves: Fort +6 [+3 Animal + 3 Con ] Refx +4 [+3 Animal + 1 Dex ] Will +2 [+1 Animal + 1 Wis ] Skills: Listen +4, Spot (6 rnks) +18 Feats: Endurance, Run Encumbrance: 0-230 lbs (light), 231-460 lbs (medium), 461-690 lbs(heavy) Tricks: Fighting Package (attack, down, and stay), Heavy Labor Package (come and work), Defend Equipment: Chariot (cart)[15 gp][200 lbs],Masterwork Banded Mail Barding [575 gp crafted][70 lbs] And here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8384121#post8384121) is the whole story... A cart has the following information: It is made of wood (hardness 5 HP 5 per inch of thickness of the walls). Cart 15 gp 200 lb. Carriage 100 gp 600 lb. Wagon 35 gp 400 lb. A horse may pull a cart as if it has to carry the 200lbs. So, a person plus cart will probably encumber the horse. Hence the encumberance on Waag. I would guess multiple horses pulling anything would basicly split the weight. No rules for cooperative dragging of weight though in the SRD. Sorry.. they aren't that much use.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-15-07, 02:44 PM	Welcome to the "reason why no one is using traps yet" When every trap has a point-blank 50% miss chance(assault or defend) on top of other factors, why would I want to use a trap? =\ That's actually untrue and a little ambiguous. I had a long chat with Cat this morning about legal prebuffs. I'll use Psychosis as an example because he has both attack/defend packages. His current pre-buffs. Prefight Actions Alchemist Fires Prep’d Trap Opponent (if defender) Outmaneuver Opponent (if defender) Scout Opponent (if attacker) Enter with Neurosis (if trap fails, or i am the attacker)Illegal Now to make this legal, here is how it should be read. Prefight Actions Alchemist Fires Prep’d Trap Opponent (if defender) Outmaneuver Opponent (if defender) Scout Opponent (if attacker) Enter with Neurosis (if attacker) You have to specify all aspects of your prebuff. ToK
hogarth 03-15-07, 02:47 PM	Welcome to the "reason why no one is using traps yet" When every trap has a point-blank 50% miss chance(assault or defend) on top of other factors, why would I want to use a trap? =\ The rules for this got about half-completed and then Caterane lost interest and shifted his tinkering to the guild system. Now that he's back to tinkering with the arena rules, maybe you can get him to revisit it.
McJarvis 03-15-07, 02:49 PM	Hmm...I didn't know you could do conditional buffs based on whether you were attacking or defending. This would inspire me to create another character if I wasn't already dealing with three & promised myself I would actually try to level them to 10 for once. (I think I'm the oldest member with the fewest upper-level chars...) ~McJ~
Tellish_of_Ket 03-15-07, 02:54 PM	Hmm...I didn't know you could do conditional buffs based on whether you were attacking or defending. This would inspire me to create another character if I wasn't already dealing with three & promised myself I would actually try to level them to 10 for once. (I think I'm the oldest member with the fewest upper-level chars...) ~McJ~ Well, yes and no. Traps aren't allies, they just count towards them if you are the defender. I can't say what Rauul is suggesting legal (prebuff based on attack/defend of actual allies). You have to prebuff your skill packages. Some packages are defend and attack packages. One of the defending packages uses a trap that counts towards your MaxCA. If you aren't defending, then you don't have to worry about that and your regular ally would proceed with you. It's not the same as buffing two seperate allies. ToK
Macbrea 03-15-07, 03:06 PM	I have a silly rules question in relation to the arena. If a person is out of the Time stream for 10 rounds do they automaticly loose the match?
hogarth 03-15-07, 03:07 PM	I have a silly rules question in relation to the arena. If a person is out of the Time stream for 10 rounds do they automaticly loose the match? I would say that if a person deliberately used Time Hop on themselves for 10 rounds, that would count as a forfeit (since it's deliberately delaying outside of the arena). But if they used Time Hop on an opponent for 10 rounds, it wouldn't.
Macbrea 03-15-07, 03:09 PM	I would say that if a person deliberately used Time Hop on themselves for 10 rounds, that would count as a forfeit. But if they used Time Hop on an opponent for 10 rounds, it wouldn't. Why.. you cannot have it both ways. Either your out of the arena or in the arena. It would be a will save or die spell for purposes of the arena. Same as the person touching you and teleporting you away.
hogarth 03-15-07, 03:10 PM	Why.. you cannot have it both ways. Either your out of the arena or in the arena. It would be a will save or die spell for purposes of the arena. Same as the person touching you and teleporting you away. Maybe the rules can't have it both ways, but my opinion can! :D
Macbrea 03-15-07, 03:13 PM	Heh.. was looking at a trap that would Time hop the person 10 rounds into the future. Making it so, they didn't make it to the arena in time and the match was over!
hogarth 03-15-07, 03:16 PM	Heh.. was looking at a trap that would Time hop the person 10 rounds into the future. Making it so, they didn't make it to the arena in time and the match was over! Months ago Zelck and I were trying to come up with ridiculous traps. My suggestion was a Suggestion to not show up for the fight.
Macbrea 03-15-07, 03:17 PM	heh.. the concept of a time hop might be funny. Resetting Deja vu trap?
Rauul 03-15-07, 03:27 PM	A cart has the following information: It is made of wood (hardness 5 HP 5 per inch of thickness of the walls). Cart 15 gp 200 lb. Carriage 100 gp 600 lb. Wagon 35 gp 400 lb. A horse may pull a cart as if it has to carry the 200lbs. So, a person plus cart will probably encumber the horse. Hence the encumberance on Waag. I would guess multiple horses pulling anything would basicly split the weight. No rules for cooperative dragging of weight though in the SRD. Sorry.. they aren't that much use. really not worried about what the Zombie mule can pull.. as long as he can pull the cart.. is all that matters.. (zombies can't charge per say.. Zombies have poor reflexes and can perform only a single move action or attack action each round. A zombie can move up to its speed and attack in the same round, but only if it attempts a charge. So basicly the Zombie mule pulls the cart.. is just funny, always slow.. but the mule isn't stubborn anymore.. Hmm can you cast minor globe while in the cart... cart moves with you in it.. your not really leaving the globe.. as it is stationary on the cart thats being pulled by a very slow mule.....
Tellish_of_Ket 03-15-07, 03:29 PM	Don't get all excited about those uber traps, i'm re-vamping the trap rules for Cat's approval as we speak. ToK
Macbrea 03-15-07, 03:32 PM	well.. a trap that had a 10th level spell in it.. wouldn't be too useful to anyone.
Maraxus 03-15-07, 07:22 PM	Welcome to the "reason why no one is using traps yet" When every trap has a point-blank 50% miss chance(assault or defend) on top of other factors, why would I want to use a trap? =\ WRONG! :D:D:D:D In the IMT, we will now see the (to my knowledge) first Trap trigger in the History of Coco. Indri'ynar Per'Elereth lacks the trapfinding ability and accidently steps on Noko's Static Preasure Plate. Okay, with his Ref save of +12, he has a 50% chance to notice the little *click* and jump out of the way, but else :evillaugh
McJarvis 03-15-07, 07:36 PM	WRONG! :D:D:D:D In the IMT, we will now see the (to my knowledge) first Trap trigger in the History of Coco. Indri'ynar Per'Elereth lacks the trapfinding ability and accidently steps on Noko's Static Preasure Plate. Okay, with his Ref save of +12, he has a 50% chance to notice the little *click* and jump out of the way, but else :evillaugh Note the "yet" in my statement ;) Good luck man-> Noko may not be my "pick" to win, but I'm still rooting for her.
sonofzeal 03-15-07, 07:43 PM	WRONG! :D:D:D:D In the IMT, we will now see the (to my knowledge) first Trap trigger in the History of Coco. Indri'ynar Per'Elereth lacks the trapfinding ability and accidently steps on Noko's Static Preasure Plate. Okay, with his Ref save of +12, he has a 50% chance to notice the little *click* and jump out of the way, but else :evillaugh I suppose Hajj's recent run in with a certain Ginsu Device doesn't count for that honour?
Maraxus 03-15-07, 07:53 PM	?? I thought I know most characters that enter Coco and saw none with the set trap skills... *checks Hajj* What fight with what kind of device do you mean? PS: IMT pairings: Whow, my two characters are facing two opponents with a total of about 27000 gp worth of expendables. Masses of wands and a companion that holds the potions the character can hold - graaaa - and I don't even have the satisfaction that they will spend more then me, because the tournament is frozen.
sonofzeal 03-15-07, 07:58 PM	?? I thought I know most characters that enter Coco and saw none with the set trap skills... *checks Hajj* What fight with what kind of device do you mean? This one. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11778368&postcount=673)
Zevox 03-15-07, 11:39 PM	PS: IMT pairings: Whow, my two characters are facing two opponents with a total of about 27000 gp worth of expendables. Masses of wands and a companion that holds the potions the character can hold - graaaa - and I don't even have the satisfaction that they will spend more then me, because the tournament is frozen. Hey, those wands Eraca is totting are a hell of a lot cheaper per use in the long run than scrolls, especially since they're self crafted. Plus they last several levels easily (that wand of CLW she has is the same one she bought at level 3, and its only half used). I have a hard time thinking of them as expendables, personally. Zevox
Rauul 03-16-07, 12:56 AM	ok got a question... can say an ECL 9, who is on a guild mission thats ECL 10, take a guild mate who is ECL 4, granted the ECL 4 will most likely die a quick and painful death.. but the advantages that the ECL 9 would gain might be enough to allow him to pull off the mission.. Example would be Jonathon Raven Gravebound(vampire undead) was to take Rauul Darkstar (evil cleric of vecna) on a mission..(i always wanted to be a cohort for a Vampire.. just don't bite me to much) or is there a written rule someplace that saids the ECL's have to be 1-2 away from each other for Missions/quests?
Zevox 03-16-07, 12:59 AM	ok got a question... can say an ECL 9, who is on a guild mission thats ECL 10, take a guild mate who is ECL 4, granted the ECL 4 will most likely die a quick and painful death.. but the advantages that the ECL 9 would gain might be enough to allow him to pull off the mission.. Example would be Jonathon Raven Gravebound(vampire undead) was to take Rauul Darkstar (evil cleric of vecna) on a mission..(i always wanted to be a cohort for a Vampire.. just don't bite me to much) or is there a written rule someplace that saids the ECL's have to be 1-2 away from each other for Missions/quests? Nope, for two reasons. First, team missions/operations need to be announced when the CAP is used, and Jonathan's was used last week. Second, yes, there is a rule that any group activity cannot have group members more than 1 level apart from each other. Zevox
Rauul 03-16-07, 01:26 AM	Nope, for two reasons. First, team missions/operations need to be announced when the CAP is used, and Jonathan's was used last week. Second, yes, there is a rule that any group activity cannot have group members more than 1 level apart from each other. Zevox Well i kinda figured there was something in GUILDS that i missed.. but wanted to know before i asked a stupid question elsewhere... So i guess i will have to take the lich template to help... except for the 120,000 gold and 11th level spell casting ability.. i somehow dun thing we will see to many lichs in gladius.. (still haven't figured out why that template is even listed)
Tellish_of_Ket 03-16-07, 01:40 AM	Well i kinda figured there was something in GUILDS that i missed.. but wanted to know before i asked a stupid question elsewhere... So i guess i will have to take the lich template to help... except for the 120,000 gold and 11th level spell casting ability.. i somehow dun thing we will see to many lichs in gladius.. (still haven't figured out why that template is even listed) Well, i was around for the discussion of the addition of that template. If memory serves me, you don't have to pay the GP cost. ToK
MindWandererB 03-16-07, 02:01 AM	Nope, for two reasons. First, team missions/operations need to be announced when the CAP is used, and Jonathan's was used last week. Second, yes, there is a rule that any group activity cannot have group members more than 1 level apart from each other. ZevoxAs near as I can tell, the guild rules override the latter. For instance, you could challenge an ECL 10 PC with an ECL 9 and an ECL 7 as a designated combination. To answer the question, post 12 of the guild thread lists all legal combinations. Some slight variations might be permitted, but gross departures will not.
Abyssal Stalker 03-16-07, 02:16 AM	Well, i was around for the discussion of the addition of that template. If memory serves me, you don't have to pay the GP cost. ToK That's also how I have been told. You need the appropriate CL, but the phylactery is effectively a free item.
McJarvis 03-16-07, 08:09 AM	@NiQil: I just noticed that you're the only elder who apparently has never had a character over 7th level. Any particular reason why? o_O [[ie-> do you not like the smallness of the upper levels, etc?]]
hogarth 03-16-07, 09:22 AM	Does a failed guild operation give loser rewards to the gladiator(s)? If so, can someone give me a link to the relevant post where it says so? I always have difficulty finding things in the guild rules (on the rare occasions that I need to find something).
TelinArtho 03-16-07, 09:42 AM	@NiQil: I just noticed that you're the only elder who apparently has never had a character over 7th level. Any particular reason why? o_O [[ie-> do you not like the smallness of the upper levels, etc?]] NiQil's sole purpose is to get into as many fights with light warhorses and special mounts as he can, so that he can blame his losses on the allies rather than the main character... :P
TelinArtho 03-16-07, 09:43 AM	Does a failed guild operation give loser rewards to the gladiator(s)? If so, can someone give me a link to the relevant post where it says so? I always have difficulty finding things in the guild rules (on the rare occasions that I need to find something). A failed operation is just like a failed miniquest - ie - no rewards.
hogarth 03-16-07, 09:44 AM	A failed operation is just like a failed miniquest - ie - no rewards. I thought there was some sort of failed guild thingamajig that gave loser's rewards. Am I misremembering?
Rauul 03-16-07, 10:10 AM	That's also how I have been told. You need the appropriate CL, but the phylactery is effectively a free item. So you need to be cl 12 *frozen+2* to add 4 levels of frozenness to your charater.. and spend 20 credits hmm let me think... Why is this template here again?
hogarth 03-16-07, 10:13 AM	So you need to be cl 12 *frozen+2* to add 4 levels of frozenness to your charater.. and spend 20 credits hmm let me think... Why is this template here again? a) It's mentioned for completeness. b) Frozen character can still do stuff in theory (frozen quests, maybe guild missions), they just can't advance.
Rauul 03-16-07, 10:16 AM	a) It's mentioned for completeness. b) Frozen character can still do stuff in theory (frozen quests, maybe guild missions), they just can't advance. heh so they couldn't advance to cl 12 to get it... till after ironman is over.. ok gotcha
Zevox 03-16-07, 10:22 AM	I thought there was some sort of failed guild thingamajig that gave loser's rewards. Am I misremembering? Yep, you're misremembering. Probably because people ask that question so much - I have no idea why, but everyone seems to think that Guild events give loser rewards where normal ones would give nothing until someone speaks up and corrects them. Zevox
Zevox 03-16-07, 11:29 AM	Okay folks, heres an interesting question for you: I was looking through my DMG and noticed that on the wand list one of the options is a Wand of Delay Poison. Now, I have a character with Craft Wand who can cast that spell - Eraca. The thing is though, the wand on the list is obviously based on the Cleric version of the spell (CL 3, SL 2), but she casts it as a Ranger (CL 2, SL 1). So, is it possible for her to craft a wand of that spell without credits, or is she screwed in that regard because shes a Ranger instead of a Cleric? Zevox
Vathelokai 03-16-07, 11:41 AM	Okay folks, heres an interesting question for you: I was looking through my DMG and noticed that on the wand list one of the options is a Wand of Delay Poison. Now, I have a character with Craft Wand who can cast that spell - Eraca. The thing is though, the wand on the list is obviously based on the Cleric version of the spell (CL 3, SL 2), but she casts it as a Ranger (CL 2, SL 1). So, is it possible for her to craft a wand of that spell without credits, or is she screwed in that regard because shes a Ranger instead of a Cleric? Zevox My understanding is that you can craft your own wands without paying credits, but I don't know if that's official. Tellish supports that view, I believe. Not sure about the other elders.
hogarth 03-16-07, 11:46 AM	My understanding is that you can craft your own wands without paying credits, but I don't know if that's official. Tellish supports that view, I believe. Not sure about the other elders. Cat vetoed this suggestion, because obviously no one would ever pitlord again if they could get credit-free wands. ;)
McJarvis 03-16-07, 12:23 PM	Cat vetoed this suggestion, because obviously no one would ever pitlord against if they got credit-free wands. ;) Pitlod? Heck, I wouldn't even play CoCo unless I had the option to sacrifice 3->4 hours a week in order to gain extremely small advantages over other players!
Rauul 03-16-07, 12:28 PM	Okay folks, heres an interesting question for you: I was looking through my DMG and noticed that on the wand list one of the options is a Wand of Delay Poison. Now, I have a character with Craft Wand who can cast that spell - Eraca. The thing is though, the wand on the list is obviously based on the Cleric version of the spell (CL 3, SL 2), but she casts it as a Ranger (CL 2, SL 1). So, is it possible for her to craft a wand of that spell without credits, or is she screwed in that regard because shes a Ranger instead of a Cleric? Zevox if she has the craft wand feat, and the wand is on the list... she can craft it without credits from my understanding... Credits only cost if the wand isn't on the silly random encounter magic item wand list
Zevox 03-16-07, 12:32 PM	if she has the craft wand feat, and the wand is on the list... she can craft it without credits from my understanding... Credits only cost if the wand isn't on the silly random encounter magic item wand list Thats precisely why I'm asking, though. In this case it sort of is, sort of isn't. The spell is on the list, but its in the form of a Cleric-crafted one at a higher CL and SL than she can cast the spell at. Zevox
templer10 03-16-07, 12:35 PM	here is a question to you old timers? what is the highest permenent AC (that is without any buffs save abilities usable at will + permenent +stat items) you seen around here at around ECL 8ish withou buffs? iam working on a concept and iam stuck at AC 33 at ECL (and very respactable saves).
hogarth 03-16-07, 12:37 PM	Thats precisely why I'm asking, though. In this case it sort of is, sort of isn't. The spell is on the list, but its in the form of a Cleric-crafted one at a higher CL and SL than she can cast the spell at. Wands at higher (and lower) levels are individual entries in the wand table (e.g. CL 1 vs CL 3 wands of Magic Missile), so my initial reaction would be "no, it requires credits". The real answer is "Ask Cat, since this is his made-up house rule in the first place." ;)
Macbrea 03-16-07, 03:48 PM	here is a question to you old timers? what is the highest permenent AC (that is without any buffs save abilities usable at will + permenent +stat items) you seen around here at around ECL 8ish withou buffs? iam working on a concept and iam stuck at AC 33 at ECL (and very respactable saves). Trolodyte Mithril Full plate +3 with 16 dex with ring of protection +1 and +3 tower shield wields like a shield, amulet of natural armor +1. 10 + 7 Natural + 3 dex + 11 armor + 1 defelection +7 shield = 39 Of course you only have a touch AC = 14
MindWandererB 03-16-07, 03:56 PM	Yep, you're misremembering. Probably because people ask that question so much - I have no idea why, but everyone seems to think that Guild events give loser rewards where normal ones would give nothing until someone speaks up and corrects them.Actually, there is one exception: the world event. You do gain loser rewards on that--assuming we don't completely revamp the rules the next time we try one of those.
McJarvis 03-16-07, 03:59 PM	Actually, there is one exception: the world event. You do gain loser rewards on that--assuming we don't completely revamp the rules the next time we try one of those. No, let not. This way we can take bets on who will die first and who will die last. (since we're betting now)
MitzaVolchenko 03-16-07, 03:59 PM	Actually, there is one exception: the world event. You do gain loser rewards on that--assuming we don't completely revamp the rules the next time we try one of those. I didn't get any rewards for the World Event as far as I know.
templer10 03-16-07, 04:19 PM	Trolodyte Mithril Full plate +3 with 16 dex with ring of protection +1 and +3 tower shield wields like a shield, amulet of natural armor +1. 10 + 7 Natural + 3 dex + 11 armor + 1 defelection +7 shield = 39 Of course you only have a touch AC = 14 actually that's AC 38 (trog is +6) which is impressive indeed (and also cost around 30K- unless you craft some of it yourself) anyone can top that?
hogarth 03-16-07, 04:22 PM	actually that's AC 38 (trog is +6) which is impressive indeed (and also cost around 30K- unless you craft some of it yourself) anyone can top that? You could add a dusty rose ioun stone and/or a defending weapon for a few more.
Macbrea 03-16-07, 04:24 PM	Well, it is assumed you would have craft armor in order to reduce the high cost of the mithril full plate. Also, if your going to actually fight that style you can take Combat expertise and improved combat expertise as a fighter type to bring your ac up another 6 at the cost of 6 to hit.
Rauul 03-16-07, 05:41 PM	Anyone feel like doing a full charater audit.. really don't wanna wait till wensday to find out i fubared something.. The Corrupter (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11532929&postcount=1074) either PM me problems or prison him (pm sent and credits paid for him anyways)
MindWandererB 03-16-07, 07:06 PM	I didn't get any rewards for the World Event as far as I know. Indivara was frozen, so no rewards. Nonfrozen characters got them, or they should have.
templer10 03-16-07, 07:27 PM	i just want to remind myself becuase iam fairly sure iam correct- but a monk who has natural weapons can do his normal flurry + attack with his natural weapons as secondery attacks - correct?
MindWandererB 03-16-07, 07:56 PM	i just want to remind myself becuase iam fairly sure iam correct- but a monk who has natural weapons can do his normal flurry + attack with his natural weapons as secondery attacks - correct? For bites, gores, and stings, yes. For claws, slams, and hooves, no (since you use your "hands" for those attacks). The natural weapons are at -7 to hit by default (-2 for flurry, -5 for secondary).
templer10 03-16-07, 07:58 PM	For bites, gores, and stings, yes. For claws, slams, and hooves, no (since you use your "hands" for those attacks). The natural weapons are at -7 to hit by default (-2 for flurry, -5 for secondary). i think you are wrong on this since when a monk attack with an unarmed attack he doesnt have to use hands- from the SRD - "A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full"
Macbrea 03-16-07, 08:01 PM	That's not quite correct from the FAQ. A creature with additional natural attacks such as how the Centaur is written may make the attacks as secondary attacks. If for instance Razorfang takes monk next level he may either attack with his monk unarmed attacks or his natural weapons but not both. That is because Worg is written in such a fashion that they get a natural attack, not additional natural attacks. I think Lizardman and Centaur are the creatures that are written as additional natural attacks.
Macbrea 03-16-07, 08:05 PM	Can a monk who has natural weapon attacks (such as a centaur monk) attack unarmed and still use his natural weapons? For example, let’s say he’s a 4th-level monk. Can he use a flurry of blows and attack at +5/+5/+0 unarmed (plus other bonuses) and then at +0/+0 for 2 hooves? If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full attack routine, the monk can do the same (making unarmed strikes in place of weapon attacks). Since a centaur can make two hoof attacks in addition to his longsword attack, a Centaur monk can make two hoof attacks in addition to his unarmed strike attack (or attacks, depending on his base attack bonus). The monk can’t use his natural weapon attacks as part of a flurry of blows, but he can make natural weapon attacks in addition to his flurry. Such attacks suffer the same –2 penalty as the monk’s flurry attacks in addition to the normal –5 penalty for secondary natural attacks. An 4th-level centaur monk has a base attack bonus of +7 (+4 from his 4 monstrous humanoid Hit Dice, and +3 from his 8 monk levels). If he performs a flurry of blows, he makes three unarmed strikes, at +5/+5/+0. He can add two hoof attacks at –2/–2 (–5 as secondary weapons, and –2 from the flurry). There you go.
templer10 03-16-07, 08:10 PM	Good enough since what i have in mind can make claw+bite+weapon attacks in the same round.
MindWandererB 03-16-07, 10:14 PM	Okay, you're right about the hoofs. But claws and slams are a bit strange--all the WotC sample monks with natural weapons use either their unarmed strike or their claw/slam, but not both. This may need to go to the Courtroom--I'd love to be able to claw/claw/bite/flurry/flurry with Besthirah.
templer10 03-16-07, 11:05 PM	Okay, you're right about the hoofs. But claws and slams are a bit strange--all the WotC sample monks with natural weapons use either their unarmed strike or their claw/slam, but not both. This may need to go to the Courtroom--I'd love to be able to claw/claw/bite/flurry/flurry with Besthirah. The faq and the PHB as pretty clear about it - "If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full attack routine, the monk can do the same (making unarmed strikes in place of weapon attacks)" - so if u have something with a claw/claw/bite routine who can also do weapon/claw/bite he can do flurry/flurry/claw/claw/bite - the Flurry can be hitting with a kick or some such simply replace the 1 weapon attack with 2 kicks and add back the freed claw. p.s. dont forget you might get all those attacks but at horrible bonus's.
MindWandererB 03-16-07, 11:34 PM	"If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full attack routine, the monk can do the same (making unarmed strikes in place of weapon attacks)" Ah, but a creature wouldn't be able to attack with claws and a weapon at the same time--the claws are holding the weapon.
templer10 03-16-07, 11:41 PM	so what?- the faq doesnt say you have to be able to attack with weapon + claws at the same time to be able to flury and claw at the same time- it only say you have to attack with a weapon and a natural attack - a lyncatrope can attack with Bite(natural weapon) and weapon at the same time and when you free it hands from the weapon and flurry with legs or whatnot the hands are free again.
sonofzeal 03-17-07, 12:05 AM	Silly question.... Why does advancing a Pegasus cost 750gp per hitdice and advancing a Hippogriff cost 1000, given that their eggs are the same price?
UserNamer 03-17-07, 06:27 AM	can I write this in my pre-buff: - don armor if I'm on the defense
Rauul 03-17-07, 08:44 AM	ok well you talked me into it... all this talk about Rogues.. please check over The Shadow (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11803386&postcount=1093) ECL 3 any problems PM or prison him so i can get it fixed... Whos Room is he sneaking around in now??
Maraxus 03-17-07, 09:25 AM	Shadow: Looks okay, except for minor stuff around the skill packages: I'd put the defence packages into the headline, too and remove the free activity you don't use in a given week from that block under your picture. There I would also mention which of your two traps you use (it is written in the pre-fight actions, but this way, one has to look at the top, the prefight actions and then the traps sections). The a after your saves is not explained. ...Oh, and now that I write this I find another thing: Your Disable Device skill is +9, Search +7. However, as per the description of the Set-Trap package, you must be able to pass your own trap's Search and Disable Device DC with a take 10.
templer10 03-17-07, 09:29 AM	ok well you talked me into it... all this talk about Rogues.. please check over The Shadow (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11803386&postcount=1093) ECL 3 any problems PM or prison him so i can get it fixed... Whos Room is he sneaking around in now?? it's not a problem but why not masterwork spiked chain and masterwork longbow? you can afford it and you need th bonus to hit- a level 3 charcter can easily have AC 20 which +5 will be hard pressed to hit. also - improved initiative really wont get you very far since a typical rogue tactic is hide+ready action which will change initiative order anyway- a very good rouge feat if you have combat expertise anyway is improved Feint and putting max arnks in feint which will let you effectivly sneak attack every round when in direct melee against oponent.
Rauul 03-17-07, 09:31 AM	Shadow: Looks okay, except for minor stuff around the skill packages: I'd put the defence packages into the headline, too and remove the free activity you don't use in a given week from that block under your picture. There I would also mention which of your two traps you use (it is written in the pre-fight actions, but this way, one has to look at the top, the prefight actions and then the traps sections). The a after your saves is not explained. ...Oh, and now that I write this I find another thing: Your Disable Device skill is +9, Search +7. However, as per the description of the Set-Trap package, you must be able to pass your own trap's Search and Disable Device DC with a take 10. Guess i can save a few hundred gp and make thier dc's cheaper.. will work on them later thanks
Erithmu 03-17-07, 09:47 AM	can I write this in my pre-buff: - don armor if I'm on the defenseNope
Tellish_of_Ket 03-17-07, 12:02 PM	can I write this in my pre-buff: - don armor if I'm on the defense No...but in ur tactics you can state that you are simply not wearing your armour that fight and leaving it at home. ToK
Zevox 03-17-07, 12:04 PM	No...but in ur tactics you can state that you are simply not wearing your armour that fight and leaving it at home. ToK No, you cannot. That was outlawed a while back - anything you're listed as carrying is carried with you into the arena, and any items or armor you have yourself listed as having equipped you have equipped when you enter the arena. Zevox
Vathelokai 03-17-07, 12:05 PM	No...but in ur tactics you can state that you are simply not wearing your armour that fight and leaving it at home. ToK I think there was a ruling on how that works... let me look. Equipment need not be prebuffed with but anything not listed in a special "At Home" section will be brought into the fight. That means, if you have listed 20 weapons and a full plate on your sheet (outside the home section) you might have trouble with encumbrance. At least, you cannot leave the armor at home if you suddenly face a spellcaster. This is similar with allies: any ally that is mentioned in the prebuff section counts against your rewards. You may choose to leave the prebuffed ally out of the fight (automatically including whatever you have listed under its equipment section) but your rewards take a hit as if the ally was actively assisting you. Hrmm... that's all I can find. Off to the courtroom to check. edit: nope, nothing there.
MitzaVolchenko 03-17-07, 12:48 PM	No, you cannot. That was outlawed a while back - anything you're listed as carrying is carried with you into the arena, and any items or armor you have yourself listed as having equipped you have equipped when you enter the arena. Zevox 100% correct. If you have armor or a shield listed into your AC, you are wearing it. That is what the verbiage At least, you cannot leave the armor at home if you suddenly face a spellcaster. is meant to convey. It could be clearer, but that is consistent with past Elder rulings. I suppose NiQil could put a clarification in the Court Decisions. IF that were not the case, than anyone could list fullplate and thenjust use it or not whenthey get there, which in turn would mean that we would have to explicitly pre-buff our items.
TheMagister 03-17-07, 01:16 PM	Okay, I'm done checking in for today. See you guys Monday!
NiQil 03-17-07, 01:54 PM	And now you guys are beginning to see the problems with allowing a defense or offense prebuff like ToK has started. By the rules, asking to prebuff wearing armor if on the defensive is completely legal. You still have to carry the armor with you in the fight, but there is nothing stating that you cannot have a prebuff line that states remove armor if on the offensive. You would still have to bring the armor with you and probably drop it on the ground, but by the rules asking to prebuff the wearing of armor is legal. The ruling you guys are referring to states that you must bring whatever you want to have access to with you. This was to prevent people from swapping things from their at home section after pairings were rolled. But listing a prebuff to not wear the armor you are bringing with you if you are the defender is a valid prebuff, based on the rules that ToK has introduced. The armor (or whatever the PC might be referring to) is still brought to the arena, it just is brought in whatever condition the PC's prebuff suggests. So in the example of prebuffing to wear armor when you are defending, the wording would have to be switched around to say if you are attacking to not wear armor since you are considered to be wearing anything you carry to the arena. The armor would be on the PC's person, but not worn, and could thus be dropped in the arena when it's convenient.
MitzaVolchenko 03-17-07, 02:32 PM	That would also necessitate having another section of AC values...no way am I gonna keep pitlording when I have to refigure even base AC's every time someone decides to pre-buff not having it.
TaggIIV 03-17-07, 04:38 PM	Couple of questions: How do metamagic feats work with spontaneously cast spells? And how about spontaneously cast cure or summon (for cleric and druid respectively) as opposed to naturally spontaneous (like sorcerer)? And... each week of full activity crafting is worth 7000gp - if one of your items only costs 4000gp can you start working towards 3000gp of a second item in the same week?
UserNamer 03-17-07, 05:38 PM	How many packages(defense/attack/automatic) or free activities can one use?
templer10 03-17-07, 08:16 PM	i was wondering What kind of gear a lyncatrope in hybrid form wear? can he wear belt, gloves etc?
Tellish_of_Ket 03-17-07, 09:09 PM	How many packages(defense/attack/automatic) or free activities can one use? There are two defense and two attack pkgs i believe. If you have the skills to use them, you can use the two defense when ur the defender, and the two attacks when ur the attacker. ToK
hogarth 03-17-07, 09:12 PM	How many packages(defense/attack/automatic) or free activities can one use? You can use as many attack/defend/automatic packages as you qualify for. You only get one free activity, though.
Zevox 03-17-07, 09:36 PM	How do metamagic feats work with spontaneously cast spells? And how about spontaneously cast cure or summon (for cleric and druid respectively) as opposed to naturally spontaneous (like sorcerer)? For a Sorcerer, they can be applied whenever one casts a spell, but increase its casting time to a full-round action. For Clerics and Druids (and Wizards and other prepared casters) though you can't apply metamagic feats unless you prepare the spell. And... each week of full activity crafting is worth 7000gp - if one of your items only costs 4000gp can you start working towards 3000gp of a second item in the same week? Basically, yes. If the total value of what you want to craft exceeds 7000 gp, it takes 2 weeks of crafting, regardless of the breakdown of what each item costs. If the total exceeds 1400 gp it takes 3 weeks, and so on. Zevox
Zevox 03-17-07, 09:38 PM	i was wondering What kind of gear a lyncatrope in hybrid form wear? can he wear belt, gloves etc? Anything a humanoid can wear, basically. I can't imagine the hybrid form changing such that it loses one of the basic humanoid slots. Zevox
TaggIIV 03-17-07, 10:33 PM	Hmm I don't know if anyone has caught this before - in the wondrous items (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/magicItemsWI.html) page in SRD, it lists Vestments, Druid's as 3750gp in the tables at top, but 10,000 in its entry at the bottom - which is correct?
Zevox 03-17-07, 10:50 PM	Hmm I don't know if anyone has caught this before - in the wondrous items (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/magicItemsWI.html) page in SRD, it lists Vestments, Druid's as 3750gp in the tables at top, but 10,000 in its entry at the bottom - which is correct? Wow, that is odd. DMG has the same issue, and it doesn't seem to be in the Errata or FAQ either. Uh... Elders? Zevox
Zevox 03-17-07, 11:02 PM	Okay, heres something else thats got me a little confused. The Skeleton and Zombie templates say this about the base creature's subtypes: It retains any subtype except for alignment subtypes (such as good) and subtypes that indicate kind. The whole "kind" thing is rather vague. What subtypes would qualify for that? The reason I ask is that Ceilia is going to quest for her first Animate Dead ally next week, a Djinni Skeleton, and in statting it up I'm not sure which, if any, of its subtypes (Air and Extraplanar) it keeps. The Air subtype doesn't really matter I suppose, save insofar as completeness goes, but the Extraplanar subtype does determine if its vulnerable to things like Dismissal and Banishment. Oh, and while I'm asking this, anybody in particular interested in running that MQ? Zevox
NiQil 03-17-07, 11:27 PM	Wow, that is odd. DMG has the same issue, and it doesn't seem to be in the Errata or FAQ either. Uh... Elders? Zevox As per the material progression for clarifications, text always trumps tables. So in the case of a conflict, go with the text unless you can prove in some other way that the table is correct.
templer10 03-17-07, 11:28 PM	Wow, that is odd. DMG has the same issue, and it doesn't seem to be in the Errata or FAQ either. Uh... Elders? Zevox the general rule about any WOTC book is that if the text and table are conflicted at any point and tehre is no errate goes by the the text (that is go by the long description).
Rauul 03-18-07, 01:45 AM	Okay, heres something else thats got me a little confused. The Skeleton and Zombie templates say this about the base creature's subtypes: The whole "kind" thing is rather vague. What subtypes would qualify for that? The reason I ask is that Ceilia is going to quest for her first Animate Dead ally next week, a Djinni Skeleton, and in statting it up I'm not sure which, if any, of its subtypes (Air and Extraplanar) it keeps. The Air subtype doesn't really matter I suppose, save insofar as completeness goes, but the Extraplanar subtype does determine if its vulnerable to things like Dismissal and Banishment. Oh, and while I'm asking this, anybody in particular interested in running that MQ? Zevox can a Djinni be a skeleton even?
sonofzeal 03-18-07, 02:17 AM	Two wizardly questions. 1) Loremasters with high int can gain the "Applicable knowledge" secret and get "Any one feat". Does that disregard normal prereq rules? By the wording, it seems to - they're pretty thorough about saying when you need to meet them for other bonus feat stuff. 2) Mirror Image on mounted rider - do the images include the mount, or are there suddenly a bunch of floating bobbing images of the rider, meaning the real one is dead easy to pick out?
MindWandererB 03-18-07, 02:26 AM	Okay, heres something else thats got me a little confused. The Skeleton and Zombie templates say this about the base creature's subtypes: The whole "kind" thing is rather vague. What subtypes would qualify for that? The reason I ask is that Ceilia is going to quest for her first Animate Dead ally next week, a Djinni Skeleton, and in statting it up I'm not sure which, if any, of its subtypes (Air and Extraplanar) it keeps. The Air subtype doesn't really matter I suppose, save insofar as completeness goes, but the Extraplanar subtype does determine if its vulnerable to things like Dismissal and Banishment. Oh, and while I'm asking this, anybody in particular interested in running that MQ? Zevox"Kind" is for subtypes such as elf, reptilian, tanar'ri, etc. For a Sorcerer, they can be applied whenever one casts a spell, but increase its casting time to a full-round action. For Clerics and Druids (and Wizards and other prepared casters) though you can't apply metamagic feats unless you prepare the spell. Not true. For any spontaneous metamagic, the same rules apply. So for a cleric or druid spontaneously casting CLW or SNA, they can use metamagic just like a sorcerer.
Vathelokai 03-18-07, 02:31 AM	Two wizardly questions. 1) Loremasters with high int can gain the "Applicable knowledge" secret and get "Any one feat". Does that disregard normal prereq rules? By the wording, it seems to - they're pretty thorough about saying when you need to meet them for other bonus feat stuff.Since that quote comes from a chart, I would not cosider it a full source. Unless it says otherwise, you need to meet the prereqs (to put it the other way, I see the opposite of what you see - they seem pretty thorough about saying when you don't need to meet them). 2) Mirror Image on mounted rider - do the images include the mount, or are there suddenly a bunch of floating bobbing images of the rider, meaning the real one is dead easy to pick out? Rules-wise, the visual dosn't matter; there is still a chance to hit the caster's images, and the effect dosn't "bleed" onto the mount. From a more visual standpoint, I see it as multiple images of the caster and the saddle, each slightly before or after the other (since images can overlap). Remember that the images are doing almost exactly what the caster is.
Rauul 03-18-07, 02:53 AM	Ok was reading over Templar10's suggestion and have to wonder... Feinting in Combat You can also use Bluff to mislead an opponent in melee combat (so that it can’t dodge your next attack effectively). To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by your target’s Sense Motive check, but in this case, the target may add its base attack bonus to the roll along with any other applicable modifiers. If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it. This attack must be made on or before your next turn. Feinting in this way against a nonhumanoid is difficult because it’s harder to read a strange creature’s body language; you take a -4 penalty on your Bluff check. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2) it’s even harder; you take a -8 penalty. Against a nonintelligent creature, it’s impossible. Feinting in combat does not provoke an attack of opportunity. So a rogue or fighter can Feint in combat (bluff vs sense motive+attack bonus(or wis bonus+attack bonus)) and if successful a Rogue gets his sneak attack damage the next round (standard action) Improved Feint Benefit:You can make a Bluff check to feint in combat as a move action. Normal: Feinting in combat is a standard action. So with the feat can do the bluff during the move part, then get the sneak attack damage (and they get no dex bonus to ac)?? IS this is correct? if so i am going to rebuild my thief...
NiQil 03-18-07, 02:58 AM	Ok was reading over Templar10's suggestion and have to wonder... So a rogue or fighter can Feint in combat (bluff vs sense motive+attack bonus(or wis bonus+attack bonus)) and if successful a Rogue gets his sneak attack damage the next round (standard action) So with the feat can do the bluff during the move part, then get the sneak attack damage (and they get no dex bonus to ac)?? IS this is correct? if so i am going to rebuild my thief... Not only is it correct, but one of the vital feats rogues should have, in my opinion. It allows them to be combat effective without the need of a flanker in situations where they can't sneak up on someone.
Rauul 03-18-07, 03:01 AM	Not only is it correct, but one of the vital feats rogues should have, in my opinion. It allows them to be combat effective without the need of a flanker in situations where they can't sneak up on someone. then it So fits with my charater concept... thanks
Tellish_of_Ket 03-18-07, 03:35 AM	Ok was reading over Templar10's suggestion and have to wonder... So a rogue or fighter can Feint in combat (bluff vs sense motive+attack bonus(or wis bonus+attack bonus)) and if successful a Rogue gets his sneak attack damage the next round (standard action) So with the feat can do the bluff during the move part, then get the sneak attack damage (and they get no dex bonus to ac)?? IS this is correct? if so i am going to rebuild my thief... Take a look at your own quote of the description...it's in fact YOUR NEXT ATTACK. If that happens to be the next round, then it is, but not by default. With improved faint, it's a move action. So you faint, +sneak attack all in the same round. ToK
Sindorin 03-18-07, 04:02 AM	Is anyone else having trouble viewing parts of the Battles of Gladius thread? I can't view the most recent few pages or something... its weird.
Rauul 03-18-07, 04:09 AM	Take a look at your own quote of the description...it's in fact YOUR NEXT ATTACK. If that happens to be the next round, then it is, but not by default. With improved faint, it's a move action. So you faint, +sneak attack all in the same round. ToK Why do I see a bunch of Sense motive Skill devices being made soonish.... heh o-well time to get those trap things done there old man...
Rauul 03-18-07, 04:45 AM	ok please take a look at him now.. tell me what you think... even made the traps inline with the lower skills.. Shadow (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11803386&postcount=1093) yes... I know he is only truely effective right now when defending... if even then.. but I acually have plans for him.. (he is a remake of my GenCon Solo charater from back in the OLD OLD days(1986)..) Btw the problem of crafting a CR 2-3 trap.. is the CoCo Allies rule.. can craft it at ECL 3 and then not use it till ECL 6-7... I See that Trapmaking can be used as a money making skill So it's all good :) Btw... are arrows, bolts ect.. legal for a rogue to "steal" from the other player.. I'm sorry your archer left his arrows at home.. to bad..
Rauul 03-18-07, 06:27 AM	Please tell me that traps aren't gonna be like wands and if you want a trap thats not listed in the DMG or SRD you have to pay credits for it... Especually considering there is 9 pages (pg 67-76) in the DMG detailing how to make traps.. and the SRD has these also.. almost word for word.. SRD TRAPS (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm)
hogarth 03-18-07, 08:23 AM	Is anyone else having trouble viewing parts of the Battles of Gladius thread? I can't view the most recent few pages or something... its weird. Have you tried going to the Options menu and reducing the number of posts displayed to 20 per page? That usually works.
hogarth 03-18-07, 08:45 AM	Jonathon Raven (ECL 9) defeated a clay golem (EL 10). Since the levels were mismatched, he gained a surprise round in order to balance things out. So does he gain rewards for an ECL 9 vs. EL 10 encounter, or an ECL 10 vs. EL 10 encounter (since he gained a surprise round to compensate)?
Maraxus 03-18-07, 09:03 AM	Traps: Nothing in the Coco rules suggests this. Arrows: No, it says expendables, and here this means scrolls, stones, tatoos, potions. What I just saw, making my lower jaw drop to the ground: The Harvester has Anti-Magic fields??? 6th level clerics should not have this! He is not the only one but the most critical example for something that I really don't like to see. Critical points: Unlimited expendables: Wands and -even more- Staffs. Why are they not restricted? At least in some way. It get's even more critical, when brought with lower charges or if the "multiple charges per use" rule and adding a low level ability that will never ever be used is used to make the staffs cheaper then they were ever supposed to be. Super-Credit-Super-Characters: Credits are useful. Higher entry, more active characters. this is good. But then, when it comes to the options to customise improve your character through credits, the spending should be somewhat monitored. This goes especially for custom items. At least nobody has tried the most abusive custom items yet, but I think an Anti-Magic field item is allready a serious step in that direction. I mean, where is the point in setting two characters against another, that are only vessels to activate overpowered custom expendable items, that no (conservative) dm would allow? (Just to name the worst case, one step away)
Zevox 03-18-07, 09:33 AM	can a Djinni be a skeleton even? *shrugs* Doesn't make too much sense to me either. I'd tend to think that if Outsiders have their soul and body as one unit, the body would necessarily vanish with the soul when they die. But since thats not in the rules, its allowed (and hence we have things like Harvester's Nightmare skeleton). Not true. For any spontaneous metamagic, the same rules apply. So for a cleric or druid spontaneously casting CLW or SNA, they can use metamagic just like a sorcerer. *checks for this in SRD* Huh. I've never noticed that line before. Learn something new every day, eh? Unlimited expendables: Wands and -even more- Staffs. Why are they not restricted? At least in some way. It get's even more critical, when brought with lower charges or if the "multiple charges per use" rule and adding a low level ability that will never ever be used is used to make the staffs cheaper then they were ever supposed to be. Because they're so expensive. Thats a ton of cash a character is blowing on a wand or dorje for just a single spell with 50 uses, so it was decided when the expendable restrictions were under discussion there was no need to regulate them. Note that its not allowed to purchase a wand or dorje with less than 50 charges, even with credits, and the "multiple charges per use" option is only for staffs/psicrowns. On staffs and psicrowns, when the expendables rules were under discussion nobody had yet bought these, so they weren't even discussed at the time. Personally, I'd say they more or less fall under the same category as wands - too costly for their benefits to be worth regulating. Not to say what Cat's done with Harvey isn't abusive, but hes about the only one who can really do it much without running out of credits damn fast. Zevox
Zevox 03-18-07, 09:41 AM	Jonathon Raven (ECL 9) defeated a clay golem (EL 10). Since the levels were mismatched, he gained a surprise round in order to balance things out. So does he gain rewards for an ECL 9 vs. EL 10 encounter, or an ECL 10 vs. EL 10 encounter (since he gained a surprise round to compensate)? ECL 9 vs EL 10. The surprise round may help compensate, but it doesn't change his level. Zevox
Yitzi 03-18-07, 02:54 PM	Does anyone know where I can find a listing of my total credits? Audit/informant/maps credits are in the Prison, and pitlording/administration credits are in the characters thread, but I can't find where other credit sources (gallery/stories/birthday) are, nor where a sum total can be found.
NiQil 03-18-07, 03:00 PM	Does anyone know where I can find a listing of my total credits? Audit/informant/maps credits are in the Prison, and pitlording/administration credits are in the characters thread, but I can't find where other credit sources (gallery/stories/birthday) are, nor where a sum total can be found. This is located in the Characters thread. Scroll down to the post that lists all active pitlords. In that post there are spoiler blocks that also show all non-active pitlords. These two lists (active and non-active) show the total of all full credits earned for every player in the history of CoCo since credits were rolled out.
Vathelokai 03-18-07, 03:16 PM	Credits are over here. I keep it bookmarked, myself.
NiQil 03-18-07, 06:52 PM	A few days ago, someone posted a link to an online SRD that incorporates errata into their texts. I lost the link...can whomever posted it please repost it?
hogarth 03-18-07, 07:01 PM	A few days ago, someone posted a link to an online SRD that incorporates errata into their texts. I lost the link...can whomever posted it please repost it? Supposedly, both the Hypertext d20 SRD (www.d20srd.org) and the Sovelior/Sage SRD (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/home.html) have errata incorporated .
Vathelokai 03-18-07, 10:19 PM	D20 SRD updates more frequently. They have a section on their site detailing what changes they have made from the SRD.
Caterane 03-19-07, 04:56 AM	Sindorin has sent us an update for the Gallery. You can watch him in full glory here. Remember, if you want to be a part of our meatshow, you gain 2° immideately and a lot of emails from female members :D (and males for Mitza LOL)
Maraxus 03-19-07, 09:06 AM	A theoretical question :rolleyes: : The slayer feature "enemy sense" allows the slayer to sense his favored enemy within 60ft and is supernatural... Now if such an favored enemy is inside an Anti-Magic field but the slayer is not (and the favored enemy is within the 60 ft)... ...Would the Slayer 'enemy-sense' his enemy? Probably the question could be reworded as: Does the Enemy sense ability grand the Slayer an additional sense that works innate within 60ft, or is enemy sense a supernatural effect with a 60ft radius?
SauroGrenom 03-19-07, 10:17 AM	A theoretical question :rolleyes: : The slayer feature "enemy sense" allows the slayer to sense his favored enemy within 60ft and is supernatural... Now if such an favored enemy is inside an Anti-Magic field but the slayer is not (and the favored enemy is within the 60 ft)... ...Would the Slayer 'enemy-sense' his enemy? Probably the question could be reworded as: Does the Enemy sense ability grand the Slayer an additional sense that works innate within 60ft, or is enemy sense a supernatural effect with a 60ft radius?AMF blocks LOE for all magical or supernatural effects. So you wouldn't sense a foe inside of the AMF using a supernatural effect as the sensing modality.
hogarth 03-19-07, 10:22 AM	AMF blocks LOE for all magical or supernatural effects. So you wouldn't sense a foe inside of the AMF using a supernatural effect as the sensing modality. The question is this: Is Sense Enemy effectively a "Personal" range spell (like Psionic Scent) which only affects the user, or is it an emanation (like Detect Hostile Intent) which would be blocked by an AMF?
SauroGrenom 03-19-07, 10:23 AM	The question is this: Is Sense Enemy effectively a "Personal" range spell (like See Invisibility) which only affects the user, or is it an emanation (like Detect Magic) which would be blocked by an AMF?It doesn't matter. For the purpose of this class ability, the Line of effect is blocked by AMF.
hogarth 03-19-07, 10:24 AM	It doesn't matter. For the purpose of AMF, the Line of effect is blocked for this class ability. An AMF wouldn't block Psionic Scent (for instance -- I edited my post above). Why would you need Line of Effect for a personal-range spell?
Maraxus 03-19-07, 10:34 AM	Exactly this is the question. I had "see invisibility" in mind (through something invisible inside an AMF raises other questions) but psionic scent is even a better example. I think I go with the emanation-interpretation, because the ability "feels" a bit like a detect-spell to me (just that you can't concentrate on it to locate the auras).
SauroGrenom 03-19-07, 10:57 AM	Psionic scent taps into a sensory modality that is already in the world, and that sensory modality is non-magical. Your own sense is magicially enhanced. So the "effect" of the power takes place in the manifester. The Sense Enemy effect is more akin to Touchsight. Touchsight is a personal power, but it's a magical sense that radiates outward. That magical sense would be blocked by AMF. Elfsight would not be blocked by AMF, nor would Darkvision since those are both magical acquisition of non-magical sensory modalities. The sensory modality needs to be magical to be blocked by AMF.
hogarth 03-19-07, 11:00 AM	All of this, of course, is your opinion and not supported by any written rule anywhere, right? :D I agree that Touchsight wouldn't work, but that's because the range says "see text" and the text says "Your touchsight field emanates from you out to 60 feet". Psionic scent taps into a sensory modality that is already in the world, and that sensory modality is non-magical. Your own sense is magicially enhanced. So the "effect" of the power takes place in the manifester. The Sense Enemy effect is more akin to Touchsight. Touchsight is a personal power, but it's a magical sense that radiates outward. That magical sense would be blocked by AMF. Elfsight would not be blocked by AMF, nor would Darkvision since those are both magical acquisition of non-magical sensory modalities. The sensory modality needs to be magical to be blocked by AMF.
SauroGrenom 03-19-07, 11:25 AM	All of this, of course, is your opinion and not supported by any written rule anywhere, right? :D There are precious few rules that actually state what AMF does and how to adjudicate how it works in conjunction with a myriad of other game elements. Largely the game designers just leave it up to the DM to decide using their best understanding of the rules. There's this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050503a) The FAQ mostly discusses AMF and DR, or AMF and constructs, or AMF in conjunction with specific feats, or AMF and magical ranged weapons. As far as I know that's all you have to go on.
Rauul 03-19-07, 12:23 PM	I just read Cats and ToK's tactics with Anti-magic field up... Few things i wanted to point out... (since tavern is for this.. and not rules lawyering) 1) the Advanced Nightmare Skeleton (created by Animate dead Spell), while in AM he would have no control over (since the control is granted by the animate dead spell it's suppressed) OUCH 2) AM suppresses all the magic within it.. not just a 10ft section of blacklight (all of it would be supressed till AM goes down.. then it would pop up), when AM enters an area of effect it would suppress it once it crossed the hex (or within 10 foot) it was placed on.. 3) All wands, staffs and magic items are suppressed while AM is up.. casting spells from memory.. ok, casting spells from scrolls.. gotta laugh If harvey somehow gained control of the skeleton back, it couldn't fly... There is a reason Anti-magic Field is the bane of all casters.. arcane and Divine.. The same reason that Fighters and Rogues, love it.. puts them on even ground with a caster.. As a Lover of magic users, and having played several in TT I really have to watch this fight to See how Anti-Magic is worked here.. I can point to several dozen 1st, and 2nd edition texts that explains AM in detail (mosty death traps for mages).. but the wording between 2nd and 3.5 is the same...
McJarvis 03-19-07, 12:26 PM	As a Lover of magic users, and having played several in TT I really have to watch this fight to See how Anti-Magic is worked here.. I can point to several dozen 1st, and 2nd edition texts that explains AM in detail (mosty death traps for mages).. but the wording between 2nd and 3.5 is the same... I just can't wait until I get TIM a dire-bat animal companion & can cast anti-magic fields vs spellcasters :)
Rauul 03-19-07, 12:31 PM	I just can't wait until I get TIM a dire-bat animal companion & can cast anti-magic fields vs spellcasters :) Acually i was thinking hood needs it on 1-2 arrows... especually when he can multishot with normal arrows and with the dr of protect arrow suppressed it still takes the damage off with normal arrows.. (special use items)
McJarvis 03-19-07, 12:34 PM	Acually i was thinking hood needs it on 1-2 arrows... especually when he can multishot with normal arrows and with the dr of protect arrow suppressed it still takes the damage off with normal arrows.. (special use items) You mean like "hood needs to take levels in arcane archer"? Because I don't think you can cast AMF on arrows(range personal)
Zevox 03-19-07, 12:55 PM	I just read Cats and ToK's tactics with Anti-magic field up... Few things i wanted to point out... (since tavern is for this.. and not rules lawyering) 1) the Advanced Nightmare Skeleton (created by Animate dead Spell), while in AM he would have no control over (since the control is granted by the animate dead spell it's suppressed) OUCH 2) AM suppresses all the magic within it.. not just a 10ft section of blacklight (all of it would be supressed till AM goes down.. then it would pop up), when AM enters an area of effect it would suppress it once it crossed the hex (or within 10 foot) it was placed on.. 3) All wands, staffs and magic items are suppressed while AM is up.. casting spells from memory.. ok, casting spells from scrolls.. gotta laugh If harvey somehow gained control of the skeleton back, it couldn't fly... There is a reason Anti-magic Field is the bane of all casters.. arcane and Divine.. The same reason that Fighters and Rogues, love it.. puts them on even ground with a caster.. As a Lover of magic users, and having played several in TT I really have to watch this fight to See how Anti-Magic is worked here.. I can point to several dozen 1st, and 2nd edition texts that explains AM in detail (mosty death traps for mages).. but the wording between 2nd and 3.5 is the same... Good point about the skeleton. If it can't be controlled, being mindless, it just sits there. Ouchy - that screws much of their tactics. Good luck catching Loddick to grapple with a 20' speed Harvey. On Blacklight though, the source of it is on the elemental he has moving just outside the field, so it will just suppress the parts of the spell within it (though if the AMF overlaps with the source of the mist I think it'll cancel that outright). He'll run into problems though since they don't move simultaneously, which his tactics seem to assume (i.e. the "elemental moves, Pale fires, elemental moves back" part). Zevox
Zevox 03-19-07, 12:57 PM	You mean like "hood needs to take levels in arcane archer"? He couldn't even if he wanted to - hes Human, and only Elves can be Arcane Archers. Zevox
SauroGrenom 03-19-07, 01:09 PM	Good point about the skeleton. If it can't be controlled, being mindless, it just sits there. Ouchy - that screws much of their tactics. Good luck catching Loddick to grapple with a 20' speed Harvey. On Blacklight though, the source of it is on the elemental he has moving just outside the field, so it will just suppress the parts of the spell within it (though if the AMF overlaps with the source of the mist I think it'll cancel that outright). He'll run into problems though since they don't move simultaneously, which his tactics seem to assume (i.e. the "elemental moves, Pale fires, elemental moves back" part). ZevoxI'd say that being mindless undead, the mount will probably attack them inside the AMF. It would just act like any uncontrolled undead. That's typically to attack living things. Also note that the elemental's only movement type is flight. That's probably supernatural flight since there are no wings involved. If so the elemental is stuck unable to move if it's in the AMF.
McJarvis 03-19-07, 01:13 PM	Also note that the elemental's only movement type is flight. That's probably supernatural flight since there are no wings involved. If so the elemental is stuck unable to move if it's in the AMF. I'd be willing to contest this. The Air Elemental's "Air Mastery" is an (ex) ability & is the most closely associated ability it has with its flight. Putting aside thoughts of the seeming impossible nature of an air elemental not being magical at all(and thus not dissapearing inside the AMF itself), I think it can fly just fine. As another example, Earth Elementals can "glide" through earth(which to me is seemingly a supernatural effect), but it is an (ex) effect. I would treat the air elemental's flight the same way.
hogarth 03-19-07, 01:39 PM	As another example, Earth Elementals can "glide" through earth(which to me is seemingly a supernatural effect), but it is an (ex) effect. I would treat the air elemental's flight the same way. I agree -- if an air elemental's flight were a supernatural ability, they'd probably say so (cf. ogre mage, rast, ravid, yeth hound). Of course, by that reasoning a nightmare's flight is non-magical and thus a nightmare skeleton wouldn't be able to fly. Certainly no skeleton is capable of flying within an AMF.
Abyssal Stalker 03-19-07, 01:49 PM	Jonathon has reached frozen status. He is my first character that high ECL. Could someone walk me through on what should I notice. He is mid-cycle, so how can I get him out of cycle? Does he get any rewards? Can I buy stuff?
Zevox 03-19-07, 02:33 PM	Jonathon has reached frozen status. He is my first character that high ECL. Could someone walk me through on what should I notice. He is mid-cycle, so how can I get him out of cycle? Does he get any rewards? Can I buy stuff? You get him out of the cycle by having him participate in some frozen event to finish up the cycle. A miniquest or Guild operation usually. He doesn't gain any rewards for anything he does while level 10 until the thaw at the end of the Iron Man, but once he finishes his current cycle he can spend any money he has from his pre-ECL 10 fights as usual. And of course anything he uses in his frozen battles will be returned to him afterwards. Zevox
MindWandererB 03-19-07, 03:04 PM	I agree -- if an air elemental's flight were a supernatural ability, they'd probably say so (cf. ogre mage, rast, ravid, yeth hound). Of course, by that reasoning a nightmare's flight is non-magical and thus a nightmare skeleton wouldn't be able to fly. Certainly no skeleton is capable of flying within an AMF.Actually, the rules are very bad about specifying whether flight is extraordinary or supernatural. Some of them it specifies (like the ones you mention above, plus the beholder as extraordinary), but the rest are left up to the imagination. I'd say that an air elemental's flight is as "natural" as a beholder's, but a nightmare's is probably supernatural.
McJarvis 03-19-07, 03:13 PM	Actually, the rules are very bad about specifying whether flight is extraordinary or supernatural. Some of them it specifies (like the ones you mention above, plus the beholder as extraordinary), but the rest are left up to the imagination. I'd say that an air elemental's flight is as "natural" as a beholder's, but a nightmare's is probably supernatural. Actually, they're very clear. Abilities are (Su), (Ex), (Sp), or natural abilities. The rules of the game article on Polymorphing was very clear on that. Anything that doesn't fall under (Su), (Ex), or (Sp) is a natural ability-> and it[ROTG article] goes on to say that movement modes usually fall under this category, along with natural armor, etc. At least that's my recollection of the article :)
MindWandererB 03-19-07, 03:18 PM	Actually, they're very clear. Abilities are (Su), (Ex), (Sp), or natural abilities. The rules of the game article on Polymorphing was very clear on that. Anything that doesn't fall under (Su), (Ex), or (Sp) is a natural ability-> and it[ROTG article] goes on to say that movement modes usually fall under this category, along with natural armor, etc. At least that's my recollection of the article :) Perhaps, but the SRD says:Flight (Ex or Su): A creature with this ability can cease or resume flight as a free action. If the ability is supernatural, it becomes ineffective in an antimagic field, and the creature loses its ability to fly for as long as the antimagic effect persists.Of course, 99% of sources forget that natural abilities exist (and make them extraordinary), but the point is that some creatures, like the nightmare, clearly have supernatural flight, but it doesn't say. And again, if its flight is extraordinary, then it loses it as a skeleton.
SauroGrenom 03-19-07, 03:20 PM	I wonder what a beholder skeleton would look like?
McJarvis 03-19-07, 03:20 PM	Perhaps, but the SRD says:Of course, 99% of sources forget that natural abilities exist (and make them extraordinary), but the point is that some creatures, like the nightmare, clearly have supernatural flight, but it doesn't say. And again, if its flight is extraordinary, then it loses it as a skeleton. I'd say if flight isn't listed as (ex) or (su) it's a natural ability. That's just what the rules say-> and as Sauro always goes on about, we shouldn't be making house-rules for "flavor". Nightmare skeletons can't fly.
MindWandererB 03-19-07, 03:23 PM	No, the rules say that Flight is always (ex) or (su). Even the RotG can't flatly contradict the SRD.
McJarvis 03-19-07, 03:25 PM	No, the rules say that Flight is always (ex) or (su). Even the RotG can't flatly contradict the SRD. No....the rules you quoted just defined what you can do with (ex) or (su) flight. It didn't mention that there were not other kinds :P It's not my fault that you've never seen the flight(ex) ability.
MindWandererB 03-19-07, 03:28 PM	No....the rules you quoted just defined what you can do with (ex) or (su) flight. It didn't mention that there were not other kinds :P It's not my fault that you've never seen the flight(ex) ability. Actually, I have. Beholder. The rule I quoted was from the "abilities, subtypes, and special conditions" section of the rules, which specifies whether a given ability is ex, su, or sp. Flight is thus always ex or su.
McJarvis 03-19-07, 03:34 PM	Actually, I have. Beholder. And my point is made. Why is a Nightmare obviously (Su) when the Beholder's flight is (Ex)? Unless otherwise specified, it is impossible to determine whether flight on a given creature is (su) or (ex). It would be "safest" for us to assume any creature that isn't specified has their flight via "natural ability" As far as what you said regarding su/ex/sp-> Those rules should only apply if the ability is an ex, su, or sp.(though I can't read them now, so I shouldn't be sure.) It sounds like that section is defining "which of the three(su, ex, sp) an ability is, if it is one of them".
hogarth 03-19-07, 03:35 PM	And my point is made. Why is a Nightmare obviously (Su) when the Beholder's flight is (Ex)? No one's saying it's "obvious" except in a "if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck..." sense.
McJarvis 03-19-07, 03:38 PM	No one's saying it's "obvious" except in a "if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck..." sense. As far as I'm concerned the nightmare could be so on fire all the time that he farts loudly and thus can fly. It's really quite extraordinary. Not specified == we're houseruling it. Otherwise, it's natural flight.
SauroGrenom 03-19-07, 03:43 PM	Not specified == we're houseruling it. Otherwise, it's natural flight.In which case, there's no flight on the skeleton to begin with. But try to get that past Cat. No going.
McJarvis 03-19-07, 03:47 PM	In which case, there's no flight on the skeleton to begin with. But try to get that past Cat. No going. No problem. I'll just start complaining about it every few months on principle. We should have a clear meta-rule regarding nightmares if they're going to be considered to have (Su) flight.
Hirumajoe 03-19-07, 04:01 PM	Out of curiosity, looking at the Iron man tournament: Why would have Loddick taken any penalty on a grapple check due to Enervation? Enervation applies no penalities to grapple checks. Since grapple checks are not an attack, an ability check, a skill check or saving throw. I had this argument with ToK a week ago and lost (when he quoted the 3.5 SRD saying that a grapple check is not an attack roll.) Thus, most effects don't give penalties or bonuses to grappling unless it explicitly listed.
SauroGrenom 03-19-07, 04:08 PM	Out of curiosity, looking at the Iron man tournament: Why would have Loddick taken any penalty on a grapple check due to Enervation? Enervation applies no penalities to grapple checks. Since grapple checks are not an attack, an ability check, a skill check or saving throw. I had this argument with ToK a week ago and lost (when he quoted the 3.5 SRD saying that a grapple check is not an attack roll.) Thus, most effects don't give penalties or bonuses to grappling unless it explicitly listed.Negative levels apply a penalty to BAB as far as I understand it. BAB is the basis of producing your grapple check. Edit: Looks like I'm wrong on that one. Good point.
Hirumajoe 03-19-07, 04:11 PM	Negative levels apply a penalty to BAB as far as I understand it. BAB is the basis of producing your grapple check. Is that in the FAQ, because thats not what the enervation spell and the Negative Level condition say in the SRD: Energy Drain And Negative Levels <snip> A creature takes the following penalties for each negative level it has gained: * -1 on all skill checks and ability checks. * -1 on attack rolls and saving throws. * -5 hit points. * -1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level). * If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. (If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.) In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level.
MindWandererB 03-19-07, 04:15 PM	Negative levels apply a penalty to BAB as far as I understand it. BAB is the basis of producing your grapple check.Technically not--they just apply a -1 to your attack roll. For instance, you don't lose iterative attacks if you have a +6/+1 BAB and get a negative level. Negative levels are weird that way--I remember hearing about a character who fell off a bridge and died because his Balance check was dropped into the negatives with negative levels. However, the spirit of negative levels seems to be that you take a -1 penalty to basically everything that improves as a function of level, so grappling should be penalized. It comes down to whether we want to follow the letter or the spirit. I hate that ambiguity with grappling.
Zevox 03-19-07, 04:51 PM	Why is a Nightmare obviously (Su) when the Beholder's flight is (Ex)? Because if a Beholder couldn't fly, it would be almost impossible for it to move, whereas with a Nightmare it can move just fine without flying. As hogarth said, if it looks like a duck... Personally, I'd say if it doesn't fly with wings, its a natural ability if it couldn't move otherwise (like a Beholder or Air Elemental), but a magical one if it could (like a Nightmare or Eladrin). Thats just my opinion though. Zevox
SauroGrenom 03-19-07, 05:06 PM	Hi Lonewolf, Haven't seen you in a while. Nice to see that you're still lurking around. Cheers, Sauro
sonofzeal 03-19-07, 07:13 PM	Hey, I remember reading rules at one point on Gladius about what happens if someone tries to grapple a mounted character, something about pulling them off the horse or possibly joining them on the horse if the horse can carry both. I can't seem to find the rule anymore though; could someone help me out?
NiQil 03-19-07, 09:17 PM	Yanno...I just gotta say....I am really, really glad I have no characters in the IMT.
Zevox 03-19-07, 09:23 PM	Yanno...I just gotta say....I am really, really glad I have no characters in the IMT. Glad you don't feel you're missing out. Personally, I'm enjoying it. My fight this week is a little one-sided, but my two on the 28th should be very interesting, and I think that round 2 will be quite interesting with the ranks thinned and the challenge increasing. Zevox
McJarvis 03-19-07, 09:24 PM	I'm enjoying all the credits I'm earning from gambling :D
Zevox 03-19-07, 09:26 PM	I'm enjoying all the credits I'm earning from gambling :D Yeah, theres that too :) . Heh, with what I got from the prison this week, I have enough to activate Annalina even without my winnings from the gambling this week, which means I can keep doing so next week and into the next rounds. That'll be fun as fights get closer. Zevox
SauroGrenom 03-19-07, 09:42 PM	Glad you don't feel you're missing out. Personally, I'm enjoying it. My fight this week is a little one-sided, but my two on the 28th should be very interesting, and I think that round 2 will be quite interesting with the ranks thinned and the challenge increasing. ZevoxI've been trying to write tactics against Asran. It's not easy.
Zevox 03-19-07, 09:55 PM	I've been trying to write tactics against Asran. It's not easy. Glad to hear I'm not the only one having a time of it figuring out what to do in that fight ;) . Heh, I think I have an idea of what to do actually, but I always come up against one spell or another between you and your cohort that could mess me up. To say the least, it'll be an interesting match. Zevox
sonofzeal 03-19-07, 10:14 PM	Can anyone point me out to the rules on grappling mounted combatants? Much appreciated, as I need it for one of the fights I'm running.
Hirumajoe 03-19-07, 11:24 PM	@Templar10: You're correct, that probably wasn't the right thread to comment in, so I'll respond to your deleted comment here. :D In regards to your comment on AMF + Hide in Plain Sight. Doesn't work for a Shadow Dancer (but does work for a Ranger) because Hide in Plain sight is Su ability. However Rangers running around with AMF are rare (only way to really do it is UMD). Not to mention level 17 rangers. On the other hand, Mindblank or the Slayer 6th level ability do work with the Shadow Dancer's hide in plain sight. Which is arguably better than AMF+Hide in Plain sight.
templer10 03-19-07, 11:32 PM	@Templar10: You're correct, that probably wasn't the right thread to comment in, so I'll respond to your deleted comment here. :D In regards to your comment on AMF + Hide in Plain Sight. Doesn't work for a Shadow Dancer (but does work for a Ranger) because Hide in Plain sight is Su ability. However Rangers running around with AMF are rare (only way to really do it is UMD). Not to mention level 17 rangers. On the other hand, Mindblank or the Slayer 6th level ability do work with the Shadow Dancer's hide in plain sight. Which is arguably better than AMF+Hide in Plain sight. didnt notice it was SU - NM then- even without it hide in plain sight alone is supremly good at what it does - making you unattackable(not completly i know- but close to it) - consider that even a natural 1 is not an automatic fauilre with hide. also by the time rangers (althrough finding strait up ranger 17 will be difficult i agree) get it if they care to and custom items are allowed they can fairly easliy get a +30 item to hide.... (which is the limit to non epic).
SauroGrenom 03-19-07, 11:37 PM	Can anyone point me out to the rules on grappling mounted combatants? Much appreciated, as I need it for one of the fights I'm running.It's in the rules thread.
Hirumajoe 03-19-07, 11:43 PM	didnt notice it was SU - NM then- even without it hide in plain sight alone is supremly good at what it does - making you unattackable(not completly i know- but close to it) - consider that even a natural 1 is not an automatic fauilre with hide. also by the time rangers (althrough finding strait up ranger 17 will be difficult i agree) get it if they care to and custom items are allowed they can fairly easliy get a +30 item to hide.... (which is the limit to non epic). Umm... As far as I know, not being seen doesn't equal invulnerability. Most casters would not have any problems finding a Hide in plain sight character. By itself, it has many counters: Summons with tremor sense or blindsight. Touch Sight. Glitterdust. Blindsense familiars. High innate Spot check (whatever you can buy in Hide, someone else can buy in Spot or listen). High innate Listen check (which is actually the harsher of the two with the DC 0 built in check.) Arcane sight. Locate Object. Scent. And so on. I'm pretty sure if you put up a level 13 Valen Sky, even with Cerebral Blind and Hide in Plain sight, against someone like Uhme or the Harvester they wouldn't have too many problems tracking him down. Against builds thats not prepared for it, sure, but against characters ready for all contingencies, not a big issue.
templer10 03-19-07, 11:54 PM	Umm... As far as I know, not being seen doesn't equal invulnerability. Most casters would not have any problems finding a Hide in plain sight character. By itself, it has many counters: Summons with tremor sense or blindsight. Touch Sight. Glitterdust. Blindsense familiars. High innate Spot check (whatever you can buy in Hide, someone else can buy in Spot or listen). High innate Listen check (which is actually the harsher of the two with the DC 0 built in check.) Arcane sight. Locate Object. Scent. And so on. I'm pretty sure if you put up a level 13 Valen Sky, even with Cerebral Blind and Hide in Plain sight, against someone like Uhme or the Harvester they wouldn't have too many problems tracking him down. Against builds thats not prepared for it, sure, but against characters ready for all contingencies, not a big issue. all of these abilities are range limited- what will you do against a ranged attacker who use hide in plain sight? the only defense is a high spot- and you tell me -how many people realy have super high spot scores? btw even in melee - the only thing that really will pin this guy down is touchsight since all the others have counter counters- scent and blindsense wont give u pinpoint - for glitterdust you need to aim in the generaly the correct area which is avoidable with spring attack (or just range attacking) for the DC 0 listen - silence is not hard to get. btw- all is this is just to show Why the hide in plain sight of shadowdancer is nerfed (not that's nerfed by much since reguler darkness is enough to hide in).
Zevox 03-20-07, 12:09 AM	Umm... As far as I know, not being seen doesn't equal invulnerability. Not exactly, but in many ways it can be said to be such. It is invulnerability to targeted effects outright so long as you're not spotted. And of course if a foe has no idea where you are, he can't do anything to you. Plus since most Shadowdancers will be Rogues or Monks, they probably have a high reflex save and evasion (see my Featylec, the only current Shadowdancer in the arena, who has +17 reflex save and evasion at level 10), so area spells like fireball aren't likely to help. And many of the counters you named can be easily beaten: Summons with tremor sense or blindsight. In many maps is easy to kill them or avoid them, especially with the low duration on most types of summons if you're not a Thaumaturge. Glitterdust. Need to have an idea where to plant it first, and even then theres at least one way to counteract it that work wonders when you have HiPS (I'll reserve that one for myself). Blindsense familiars. Kill 'em. One or two shots generally takes out a Wizard's familiar easily. High innate Spot check (whatever you can buy in Hide, someone else can buy in Spot or listen). True, though many classes have spot as only a cross-class skill, and some of those with it as a class skill generally use wisdom as a dump or semi-dump stat (like Rogues or Wilders, or even Rangers in some cases). Plus since sneaks are rare around here not many seem to put skills or money into that skill. High innate Listen check (which is actually the harsher of the two with the DC 0 built in check.) Eh, for most its just one DC 0 (two is if you're sniping with a spell). But yeah, I really wish we'd just dump that horrid house rule. In any event, listen otherwise has the same issues as spot above (plus the fact that, unlike spot, theres no non-credit item for improving it). Arcane sight. Potion of Misdirection. Locate Object. Potion of Nondetection. Scent. Kill/avoid whatever has the ability. Touch Sight. Bane of all hiders everywhere. Damn that the only counters to it are 6 levels of Slayer and being a Ghost. One of three psionic powers I feel are overpowered (the other two being Ego Whip and Energy Missile). I'm pretty sure if you put up a level 13 Valen Sky, even with Cerebral Blind and Hide in Plain sight, against someone like Uhme or the Harvester they wouldn't have too many problems tracking him down. Against builds thats not prepared for it, sure, but against characters ready for all contingencies, not a big issue. Not if you've prepared for their contingencies. With Cerebral Blind to counter Touchsight, I'd wager a good Shadowdancer could handle Uhme or Harvey. the only defense is a high spot- and you tell me -how many people realy have super high spot scores? My Eraca Moralta is level 10 with +20 spot and +14 listen. MWB's level 10 Aerryl Nalladar has +21 listen and Besthira Lafali has +18 on both listen and spot. Most Druids have at least one high, given both are class skills and wisdom is important to them. Not many folks have those kind of spot scores overall, granted, but they're there. Zevox
SauroGrenom 03-20-07, 12:11 AM	With the rather limited size of all the arena's and the crazy movement speeds you can get on various things, it's not too hard to scan most arena's within a couple rounds using something like run and blindsense. Builds like that have been tried. You can only evade for so long. Someone eventually catches you. Besides, it's a total crap shoot for pitlords to run battles like that. There's no faster way to make a pitlord overwhelmed than to require 50 skill checks per round.
SauroGrenom 03-20-07, 12:13 AM	My Eraca Moralta is level 10 with +20 spot and +14 listen. MWB's level 10 Aerryl Nalladar has +21 listen and Besthira Lafali has +18 on both listen and spot. Most Druids have at least one high, given both are class skills and wisdom is important to them. Not many folks have those kind of spot scores overall, granted, but they're there.I've got a wizard with a spot check at +21 and a listen at +14.
Abyssal Stalker 03-20-07, 02:20 AM	Because if a Beholder couldn't fly, it would be almost impossible for it to move, whereas with a Nightmare it can move just fine without flying. As hogarth said, if it looks like a duck... Yes, they can: :rofl:
Tellish_of_Ket 03-20-07, 02:46 AM	edit...doh
Abyssal Stalker 03-20-07, 02:51 AM	You get him out of the cycle by having him participate in some frozen event to finish up the cycle. A miniquest or Guild operation usually. He doesn't gain any rewards for anything he does while level 10 until the thaw at the end of the Iron Man, but once he finishes his current cycle he can spend any money he has from his pre-ECL 10 fights as usual. And of course anything he uses in his frozen battles will be returned to him afterwards. Zevox What about my cohort? I got her mid-cycle, so I haven't been able to actually buy anything to her. Should I wait until the end of the cycle before I add equipment to her?
MindWandererB 03-20-07, 02:56 AM	What about my cohort? I got her mid-cycle, so I haven't been able to actually buy anything to her. Should I wait until the end of the cycle before I add equipment to her? You know, we should probably modify this rule for cohorts. It's kind of silly to have a naked cohort for half a cycle. You should be allowed to buy gear for them immediately.
Rauul 03-20-07, 02:57 AM	Yes, they can: :rofl: Skeletal Bowling ball :)
Rauul 03-20-07, 03:00 AM	You know, we should probably modify this rule for cohorts. It's kind of silly to have a naked cohort for half a cycle. You should be allowed to buy gear for them immediately. Well your the elder... but what if the Cohort came with the gold piece value in equipment normally gotten in the miniquest/quest instead of the player getting it.. In the case of the frozen quest.. they can still get the equipment that the quest would normally provide
MindWandererB 03-20-07, 03:08 AM	Well your the elder... but what if the Cohort came with the gold piece value in equipment normally gotten in the miniquest/quest instead of the player getting it.. In the case of the frozen quest.. they can still get the equipment that the quest would normally provide It's a bit more complicated, but it has its merits. Prevents you from saving 800,000 gp and saying "oh, the cohort started with that." I'm a big fan of simplicity in general... but I bet Cat would favor your approach.
hogarth 03-20-07, 06:47 AM	What about my cohort? I got her mid-cycle, so I haven't been able to actually buy anything to her. Should I wait until the end of the cycle before I add equipment to her? Reginald Molehusband was just forced to fight with an unequipped cohort -- she couldn't even afford to summon a familiar yet. I assumed she at least had a spellbook and a few spell components, though. I figure it's only fair to assume that Jonathon's cohort has a holy symbol. Otherwise you can just go cohort-less for your next fight (if she can't even cast cleric spells, she's not very useful).
Abyssal Stalker 03-20-07, 06:55 AM	Reginald Molehusband was just forced to fight with an unequipped cohort -- she couldn't even afford to summon a familiar yet. I guess she at least had a spellbook, though. I figure it's only fair to assume that Jonathon's cohort has a holy symbol. Otherwise you can just go cohort-less for your next fight (if she can't even cast cleric spells, she's not very useful). Yeah, I'm pondering between taking Misery or Lillian with him to his next fight. Death doesn't matter, because this is his last fight. I'd still like to see cohorts coming equipped, at least within some limits. Rauul's suggestion sounded fair to me. On the other hand it allows people to refill their expendables between fights. We would get around this by saying that the cohort can be equipped with the gold that is given as a reward for the quest, but none of the equipment can be expendables.
McJarvis 03-20-07, 07:24 AM	I still can't decide what cohort to get TIM. I'd hate to just default to cleric, but that looks more and more like what I'm gonna do.... I hate clerics >=[ Thanks for reminding me, though...I can plan ahead and buy that holy symbol before he goes into his next 3FC :)
Rauul 03-20-07, 08:37 AM	I still can't decide what cohort to get TIM. I'd hate to just default to cleric, but that looks more and more like what I'm gonna do.... I hate clerics >=[ Thanks for reminding me, though...I can plan ahead and buy that holy symbol before he goes into his next 3FC :) hey now... Wait till you see the Corrupters Cohort... 2 fighter/3 cleric of death/destruction :)
Rauul 03-20-07, 08:39 AM	Yeah, I'm pondering between taking Misery or Lillian with him to his next fight. Death doesn't matter, because this is his last fight. I'd still like to see cohorts coming equipped, at least within some limits. Rauul's suggestion sounded fair to me. On the other hand it allows people to refill their expendables between fights. We would get around this by saying that the cohort can be equipped with the gold that is given as a reward for the quest, but none of the equipment can be expendables. Acually since Cohorts can't OWN Expendables they can't start with any.. they would be able to have armor/armor/spellbooks/famililars/ect.. maybe even a bow and a few arrows.. or you can plan ahead.. and buy what they will need.. and if you fail the miniquest/quest you just sell it (and gain 1/2 gold back) or save it (is there a limit on how much your room can store?)
McJarvis 03-20-07, 08:43 AM	Are cohorts not restricted to single-classing? Seems like the should be, given that even Guilds can not hire leaders that are multi-classed.(and there are people who think that leadership is overpowered as-is, though I don't know who those people might be.:incog: )
hogarth 03-20-07, 08:48 AM	I still can't decide what cohort to get TIM. I'd hate to just default to cleric, but that looks more and more like what I'm gonna do.... A level of psion/psychic warrior would hurt your cohort's casting ability, but it would open up a larger array of possible expendables to use. On the other hand, maybe you could just get a bunch of expendable psion/psychic warrior/wizard/cleric 1st level followers to bring in to the arena. I hate clerics >=[ Thanks for reminding me, though...I can plan ahead and buy that holy symbol before he goes into his next 3FC :) Buying another spell component pouch wouldn't hurt either. Are cohorts not restricted to single-classing? Seems like the should be, given that even Guilds can not hire leaders that are multi-classed. I don't see why they would be restricted to one class.
McJarvis 03-20-07, 08:55 AM	I don't see why they would be restricted to one class. Is the fact that they're usually not custom-built, but rather DM granted enough of a reason? ((unless all gladiators at CoCo are genetical engineers who can build their own people & have infinite time to do it in...))
hogarth 03-20-07, 09:06 AM	Is the fact that they're usually not custom-built, but rather DM granted enough of a reason? ((unless all gladiators at CoCo are genetical engineers who can build their own people & have infinite time to do it in...)) Here's what it says in the feat: A character can try to attract a cohort of a particular race, class, and alignment. I guess you could say that "particular class" means single-classed. In my tabletop experience, DMs are usually pretty accomodating on what cohorts are available for characters. YMMV.
Abyssal Stalker 03-20-07, 09:08 AM	Is the fact that they're usually not custom-built, but rather DM granted enough of a reason? ((unless all gladiators at CoCo are genetical engineers who can build their own people & have infinite time to do it in...)) ...but in CoCo they are custom-built, just like everything else, because the GM thinks that it is a good thing. CoCo gladiators aren't genetical engineers, they just happen to be very lucky what comes to choosing the people they hang around with. :P
Zevox 03-20-07, 09:35 AM	Are cohorts not restricted to single-classing? Seems like the should be, given that even Guilds can not hire leaders that are multi-classed.(and there are people who think that leadership is overpowered as-is, though I don't know who those people might be.:incog: ) No. Why would they be? The Guilds thing is for simplicity's sake (as much as it can be with those rules), its not some universal NPC rule. The cohorts are sapient individuals who can pick how to further their own training just as much as their masters can, so why shouldn't they be allowed to multiclass? Acually since Cohorts can't OWN Expendables they can't start with any Where'd you get that idea? Of course cohorts can own expendables, they just count against your cap. Oh, and the buying equipment thing - welcome to the reason I use full quests or out-of-cycle MQs to get my characters' allies ;) . Zevox
Hirumajoe 03-20-07, 11:44 AM	Ok, dumb question. If you would level up during a mission after the 1st or 2nd mission do you, or do you wait to the end (and figure out if you actually succeed)? And if you wait to the end, how is the gold handled if you leveled up part way through? On a fight by fight basis or? If it comes in one big clump at the end, you can be out a fair bit of change (at least in the ECL 7 -> ECL 8 leveling range I'm realizing Valen might be out about 713 gp - more than twice what's he's used or sold in his entire career). If so, are you allowed to refuse xp/gp rewards so as not loose out on gold in the long run? Thanks. Edit: Nevermind... Found an answer in the council of gladius thread. Apparently Sauro let Fealtyc level and restock mid-mission.
hogarth 03-20-07, 02:13 PM	What is the minimum EL for a miniquest in order to get a Diplomacy ally? Is it: If you quest for an ally, the EL must be at least as high as the CR of the to-be ally (and the ally is never the opponent that you have to defeat). Or is it: You have to have the requisite diplomacy value (see Allies II) and complete a quest or miniquest with an EL equal to your ECL. I assume the latter overrides the former.
Abyssal Stalker 03-20-07, 03:19 PM	I posted a new mercenary. Check out Szaal'zass for errors. She is inspired (and almost the same) as the cleric in Quest: "Swamp Thing"
Zevox 03-20-07, 03:39 PM	I assume the latter overrides the former. Yup. The latter is specifically for Diplomacy allies only, the former is a general rule for all types of allies. The specific overrides the general. I posted a new mercenary. Check out Szaal'zass for errors. She is inspired (and almost the same) as the cleric in Quest: "Swamp Thing" Heh, shes kinda similar to the merc I posted just above her, Destra. Won't work for TLT, discount (in Destra's case works for free) when fighting them. Sounds like they'd get along. No glaring errors I can see, looks pretty sound. Though you have her as a tad costly to recruit - the base cost for mercs is 100 gp * level, shes close on 50% above that. Zevox
Abyssal Stalker 03-20-07, 03:49 PM	Yup. The latter is specifically for Diplomacy allies only, the former is a general rule for all types of allies. The specific overrides the general. Heh, shes kinda similar to the merc I posted just above her, Destra. Won't work for TLT, discount (in Destra's case works for free) when fighting them. Sounds like they'd get along. No glaring errors I can see, looks pretty sound. Though you have her as a tad costly to recruit - the base cost for mercs is 100 gp * level, shes close on 50% above that. Zevox How come? There's a table on the first page how much they should cost. She is quite similar, I noticed that too. I just figured that I had already made the effort to create her and wanted to post her somewhere if someone wants to use her in a quest for example.
Zevox 03-20-07, 03:51 PM	How come? There's a table on the first page how much they should cost. Huh, thats odd, its not 100*level gp. Guess I just remembered that from posting low-level mercs way back when. Better up Destra's recruitment price then. Zevox
McJarvis 03-20-07, 03:55 PM	Does anyone know if the name "General Zaroff" has been used before in CoCo? I'm not particularly married to the name & feel no particular need to keep it the same if it has previously been claimed.
SauroGrenom 03-20-07, 04:05 PM	If you have a creature who's weapons are naturally aligned to some alignment, do they count as magical as well for the purpose of DR? For example a Yeth hound's bite is evil aligned. Will that penetrate DR X/Magic? I don't think so, but I thought I'd ask.
Zevox 03-20-07, 04:07 PM	If you have a creature who's weapons are naturally aligned to some alignment, do they count as magical as well for the purpose of DR? For example a Yeth hound's bite is evil aligned. Will that penetrate DR X/Magic? I don't think so, but I thought I'd ask. I certainly don't see why it would. Generally speaking, if you don't have DR x/magic, your natural weapons don't count as magic for bypassing that. If they do, its spelled out in the monster entry. If the entry doesn't say they do that, they don't. Zevox
hogarth 03-20-07, 05:09 PM	Do birds and bats count as quadrupeds for carrying capacity purposes? I think I've seen a few dire bats around that make that assumption, but I'm not sure.
MindWandererB 03-20-07, 05:24 PM	Do birds and bats count as quadrupeds for carrying capacity purposes? I think I've seen a few dire bats around that make that assumption, but I'm not sure. I wouldn't think so, but the MM has calculated carrying capacity for a couple of birds, and it treats them as quadrupeds. I treat Predator as a biped, but I may not have to.
Vathelokai 03-20-07, 06:24 PM	If you have a creature who's weapons are naturally aligned to some alignment, do they count as magical as well for the purpose of DR? For example a Yeth hound's bite is evil aligned. Will that penetrate DR X/Magic? I don't think so, but I thought I'd ask. I don't believe so. I think it worked that way in 3.0, but they made all DR types independent in 3.5. I can't back that up quite yet, but let me check the FAQ.
Horatius 03-20-07, 06:25 PM	Would an elder mind chacking my request to change turning for rebuking in the training hall? I'd like to make the change before my next fight if possible. Also, I'm a little confused about how the hide skill is run here. Mitza's tactics for the IM stated that with 9 ranks in hide she could hide within 9' of any sort of cover. My understanding was that this was not true, you had to have cover or concealment (meaning you were in the same square as the cover, or it was between you and your opponent) but that the 9 ranks would allow you to maintain the hide for the round that you break cover to attack, as long as the target of the attack was within 9' of the cover.
Vathelokai 03-20-07, 06:42 PM	Would an elder mind chacking my request to change turning for rebuking in the training hall? I'd like to make the change before my next fight if possible.That usualy gets done today or tomorrow. Feel free to update it on your sheet (assuming you have the credits in the bank, or the change is free). If you cannot update the sheet with the link before pairings, then send the link with your tactics. Also, I'm a little confused about how the hide skill is run here. Mitza's tactics for the IM stated that with 9 ranks in hide she could hide within 9' of any sort of cover. My understanding was that this was not true, you had to have cover or concealment (meaning you were in the same square as the cover, or it was between you and your opponent) but that the 9 ranks would allow you to maintain the hide for the round that you break cover to attack, as long as the target of the attack was within 9' of the cover. Whenever you are moving, if you are within 1 feet of cover per 1 rank, you are still considered 'concealed' for the purposes of maintaining hiding. You still have to end your move with cover or concealment. I believe that was just bad writing on Mitza's part, but she was moving though the cannopy (ie never leaving cover) anyway, so it was a moot point. Since her opponent was also hiding in the canopy, they both had cover/concealment vs. each other at all times.
Macbrea 03-20-07, 07:37 PM	The canopy needs a tweak to it's writing. Anyone within the canopy gains cover and concealment against those outside the canopy. Oddly, by that writing they don't have cover or concealment to each other if they are both in the canopy. We all realize what it is suppose to mean. But it's written funky.
Horatius 03-20-07, 07:38 PM	@ Vath: Thanks for both responses - the hide makes sense if you have to end the movement with cover or concealment. I did see that in the event it was irrelevant, but the implications had me thinking... :confused: Rauul made a good point earlier about characters with large numbers of credit-bought items having a significant advantage over others, particularly if the credit-bought items gave access to spells/effects above those normailly available at the relevant ECL. Is there any rule limiting the number of credits a character can invest in equipment? Has one been considered?
Macbrea 03-20-07, 07:43 PM	Nope.. spend away.
McJarvis 03-20-07, 08:57 PM	. Is there any rule limiting the number of credits a character can invest in equipment? Has one been considered? When someone who is actually facing off against one of those super-credit characters actually complains, I'm sure it will be taken into consideration.
templer10 03-20-07, 09:03 PM	just wondering - is it possible for buffs to last between 3fc's?
McJarvis 03-20-07, 09:03 PM	just wondering - is it possible for buffs to last between 3fc's? no
hogarth 03-20-07, 09:05 PM	just wondering - is it possible for buffs to last between 3fc's? Maybe, if the spell has permanent duration (like Permanency or Fire Trap). But not Polymorph Any Object -- that's an exception.
TaggIIV 03-20-07, 09:15 PM	Is there any equivolency of the old "Roleplay" thread?
Zevox 03-20-07, 10:57 PM	Is there any equivolency of the old "Roleplay" thread? The Guild threads, essentially. Though you could post some RP here too - Macbrea and Vath have done that with their dragons, Saffron Brass and Lord Frost, from time to time. Zevox
Macbrea 03-20-07, 11:22 PM	I do it mostly because Lord Frost isn't in any of the guilds. He really should join one of the guilds. Originally, he was going to join War. But that was when they had a restriction that stated you had to have either all martial or all monk weapons. Being a pure dragon at the time he couldn't use weapons. He is aligned in such a fashion that he could join EHTC but has an extreme hatred of thieves. Strangely, they no longer have any thieves. When CEF went to war with WAR, Frost offered to help CEF beat down some of the littler members of WAR but was turned down by the Angels. TLT wouldn't give the small pyromancer their forest. So, he was thinking of challenging the guild for it. But, I am not sure what ever became of that. So.. this thread works great every now and then for roleplay.
Zevox 03-20-07, 11:25 PM	He is aligned in such a fashion that he could join EHTC but has an extreme hatred of thieves. Strangely, they no longer have any thieves. Actually, Annalina Vale has been a thief (among other things) in her past. Shes the general sort of shady underworld sort looking to gain political power for herself. Zevox
Macbrea 03-20-07, 11:27 PM	Well, seeking power isn't a crime, seeking someone else's horde is the worst thing you can do. ~ Frost
Erithmu 03-21-07, 12:35 AM	And there is now a thief in WAR ... ironic
Zevox 03-21-07, 12:38 AM	And there is now a thief in WAR ... ironic "Now"? Heh, hes been there a long time, actually. Since before Frost was made anyway. Featylec was my second character (after a failed Mystic Theurge attempt whos post I cleared out for my characters' backgrounds), and he joined WAR well over a year ago (mid January 2006). Zevox
Rauul 03-21-07, 12:50 AM	I have no clue if my new charaters will join a guild... i mean ones a Rogue... (hopeful assassin) and the other Prefers the company of undead over the living... Even though that graveborn dude is undead...
Rauul 03-21-07, 01:22 AM	Anyone care to venture into the unknown.. whats the manuverabilty on a 2 wheeled cart (200lbs) hauled by a Lightwarhorse, carring a 32lb halfling chucking Javalins... And if the halfling has Handle animal skill and ride by attack can he use them from the cart? Yes a Charioteering Halfling :schemes: :schemes: :ayyyy!:
McJarvis 03-21-07, 08:02 AM	I give you all the "beta" of my latest innovation: The Magistrate of Gladius (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11834563&postcount=1094) (I'll give you three guesses at where THAT name came from, and the first two don't count ;) ) This is pretty much my first straight-combat non-gishy build, so any advice would be welcome. (Granted he has alot of spell-trigger access, but his purpose itsn't to buff alot & then fight...he just fights, buffing when able)
Hirumajoe 03-21-07, 08:15 AM	I give you all the "beta" of my latest innovation: The Magistrate of Gladius (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11834563&postcount=1094) This is pretty much my first straight-combat non-gishy build, so any advice would be welcome. How is he not a gish? He's got a level of Psi-warrior and he's going Warmind...:D Also, why does everyone seem to take Empty mind as their 1st power? You also listed your base dex as 16 in the grey section when it should 15 (you listed it correctly as a total of 17 though with racial). Hmm... Psicrystal and Horse. I've seen this somewhere before... Also, have you considered a level of Barbarian down the line somewhere for that extra 10' speed innate and rage 1/day. Stacks nicely with the Warmind bonuses and its helpful for an archer who loses their horse/mount. Anyways, he looks like he'll be a solid archer. Don't forget to grab some thrown weapons as well. Its much harder to remove all your ranged attacks when you're carrying 10 Javelins. Which don't need to be in a quiver - because as we all know, you have a 5x5x6 =150 sq feet surface of a cube to attach them to. :D
McJarvis 03-21-07, 08:21 AM	How is he not a gish? He's got a level of Psi-warrior and he's going Warmind...:D TIM=Gish. He is a primary caster with some fighter-like things. I see this as more of an "augmented warrior". Warmind gets lots of PP, but not too many powers...I anticipate blowing my PP through a deepcrystal bow rather than manifesting much of anything. Compare with Valen Sky, who while losing 3 levels of caster-hood, is still a straight-egoist with a few levels sliced in for combat effectiveness. Also, why does everyone seem to take Empty mind as their 1st power? Well, I want to keep that 1 pp in my pool for keeping-my-focus purposes. The only reason I wouldn't want the pp is in a "live or die" circumstance...and with my low will save, I can only think of one such circumstance.... You also listed your base dex as 16 in the grey section when it should 15 (you listed it correctly as a total of 17 though with racial). All fixed. Hmm... Psicrystal and Horse. I've seen this somewhere before... :incog: Also, have you considered a level of Barbarian.. Yeah, but Warmind requires non-chaotic. :(. Originally I was just going to do Fighter2/Barb1/Psiwar2/WarmindX, but then got to thinking about that little nugget. I *think* I'm happy with the ranger level, tho. Anyways, he looks like he'll be a solid archer. Don't forget to grab some thrown weapons as well. Its much harder to remove all your ranged attacks when you're carrying 10 Javelins. Which don't need to be in a quiver - because as we all know, you have a 5x5x6 =150 sq feet surface of a cube to attach them to. :D I was planning on putting all my arrows in seperate quivers? ;) I'll make sure to add some javelins-> thanks for the advice :)
Hirumajoe 03-21-07, 08:23 AM	Yeah, but Warmind requires non-chaotic. :(. Originally I was just going to do Fighter2/Barb1/Psiwar2/WarmindX, but then got to thinking about that little nugget. I *think* I'm happy with the ranger level, tho. Umm... Barbarians require non-lawful, they do not require being chaotic. True Neutrals can be barbarians.
McJarvis 03-21-07, 08:25 AM	Yeah, but Warmind requires non-chaotic. :(. Originally I was just going to do Fighter2/Barb1/Psiwar2/WarmindX, but then got to thinking about that little nugget. I *think* I'm happy with the ranger level, tho. Umm... Barbarians require non-lawful, they do not require being chaotic. True Neutrals can be barbarians. Huh...well blow-me-down. Not sure where I'll fit in that level of barb...maybe if I fail my MQ to be trained by a Warmind at ECL 4.(talk about pressure-> only 1 chance to qualify for 5th level prestige classes that require MQ entry :-O ) edit-> Do you think the skills will suit the character well?(instead of barbarian early on?) I feel like the combination of 5 ranks in hide, high dex, and chameleon will let me sneak up on foes & charge/grapple them...or psionic shot supprise them.
Macbrea 03-21-07, 08:30 AM	"Now"? Heh, hes been there a long time, actually. Since before Frost was made anyway. Featylec was my second character (after a failed Mystic Theurge attempt whos post I cleared out for my characters' backgrounds), and he joined WAR well over a year ago (mid January 2006). Zevox Well, I woudln't say horridly before Frost was made he was made on Jan 18, 2006. Speaking of which, I need to remember to advance his age in May....
hogarth 03-21-07, 08:36 AM	Huh...well blow-me-down. Not sure where I'll fit in that level of barb...maybe if I fail my MQ to be trained by a Warmind at ECL 4.(talk about pressure-> only 1 chance to qualify for 5th level prestige classes that require MQ entry :-O ) You can try to qualify at ECL 4 and ECL 5, can't you? edit-> Do you think the skills will suit the character well?(instead of barbarian early on?) I feel like the combination of 5 ranks in hide, high dex, and chameleon will let me sneak up on foes & charge/grapple them...or psionic shot supprise them. If I were you (and I had credits to spare), I'd consider starting with Cloistered Cleric [Magic,War] 1/Ranger 2 instead to help with the ranks in Know: Psionics (plus the Lore ability gives you a little knowledge on every monster you'll encounter). I much prefer straight spellcaster/manifesters, so I'm probably the wrong one to comment, though. EDIT: Your languages are screwed up; you should have Common, Elf + one other.
McJarvis 03-21-07, 08:43 AM	Unfortunately, due to Fell Shot requiring +5 BAB I can only take 1 less-than-full BAB level before 6th level. PsiWar takes precidence over Cleric, so I probably won't even see Cleric until 7th or 8th level(need dependant) Languages fixed. I think I'll put that level of barb in at 5th level, where I was otherwise going to take combat reflexes with the fighter level. That'll give me another fighter level to work with to "drop" fighter feats wherever I need them later on(as I'm going to do for Many Shot)
Zevox 03-21-07, 08:46 AM	Huh...well blow-me-down. Not sure where I'll fit in that level of barb...maybe if I fail my MQ to be trained by a Warmind at ECL 4.(talk about pressure-> only 1 chance to qualify for 5th level prestige classes that require MQ entry :-O ) One chance? I'm seeing two - one at ECL 4, one at ECL 5. You can't qualify for Warmind before ECL 5 since you won't be able to meet the requisite 8 ranks in Knowledge (Psionics) before then. Zevox
McJarvis 03-21-07, 08:47 AM	...and yes, I always forget that 5th level exists. 2 chances to get into the class....which still isn't great chances[gah I hate MQ's where the outcome matters(though after looking at it, I think I might be able to take on that hound archon with proper preparation by 4th level.... :-) )
hogarth 03-21-07, 09:01 AM	[gah I hate MQ's where the outcome matters(though after looking at it, I think I might be able to take on that hound archon with proper preparation by 4th level.... :-) ) Just make sure Telin's not your questlord and you should be O.K. Although you didn't have much luck with MWB last time... ;) I have to admit I would've been very annoyed if Reginald Molehusband had failed his Leadership cohort miniquest.
Hirumajoe 03-21-07, 09:54 AM	Out of curiosity, which Traps (magic or mundane) are you allowed to bring into combat and use offensively. I mean, without the actual trap defend package, but actually in the middle of combat? Some traps seem like they'd be very portable. Edit: Its just that I've been thinking something like a Half Dragon immune to a type of energy (say Fire) could put some magical traps to very good use. Like: Fireball Trap CR 5; magic device; touch trigger; automatic reset; spell effect (fireball, 8th-level wizard, 8d6 fire, DC 14 Reflex save half damage); Search DC 28; Disable Device DC 28. Cost: 12,000 gp, 960 XP. Now, given that automatic reset is described as either immediately available again or after some time, you'd obviously choose immediately. Resulting in a 12,000 gp magic item that casts a 8d6 fireball at point blank range every time someone hits you or grapples you (assuming you put it on your armor).
McJarvis 03-21-07, 10:19 AM	This may be a silly question.... Do the spells/powers Magic Weapon, Magic Fang, & Metaphysical weapon make their targets magical for the purposes of DR? The spells seem to only specify that they add an enhancement bonus to the attacks...
hogarth 03-21-07, 10:25 AM	This may be a silly question.... Do the spells/powers Magic Weapon, Magic Fang, & Metaphysical weapon make their targets magical for the purposes of DR? The spells seem to only specify that they add an enhancement bonus to the attacks... "Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters." "Magic fang gives one natural weapon of the subject a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls." I don't see the ambiguity.
McJarvis 03-21-07, 10:26 AM	"Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters." "Magic fang gives one natural weapon of the subject a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls." I don't see the ambiguity. It's not a "magical enhancement bonus", as named in clear black-and-white. (though my confusion could be because I'm juggling things at work too at the moment)
hogarth 03-21-07, 10:29 AM	It's not a "magical enhancement bonus", as named in clear black-and-white. (though my confusion could be because I'm juggling things at work too at the moment) It's magical. (It detects as magical, it goes away in an AMF, you can dispel it, etc., etc.) It's an enhancement bonus. So doesn't that make it a magical enhancement bonus?
Hirumajoe 03-21-07, 10:31 AM	It's not a "magical enhancement bonus", as named in clear black-and-white. (though my confusion could be because I'm juggling things at work too at the moment) Umm... If that were true, magic weapons wouldn't work either: Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. They apply these bonuses to both attack and damage rolls when used in combat. All magic weapons are also masterwork weapons, but their masterwork bonus on attack rolls does not stack with their enhancement bonus on attack rolls. That specifically says enhancement bonus, not magical enhancement bonus. Basically, it being generated by a spell, it'd go away in an AMF, I'd call it magical enough....
hogarth 03-21-07, 10:34 AM	I would say that you can't bring in "portable" traps (other than spells like Fire Trap, Symbol, Explosive Runes, etc.) simply because there are no rules governing them. You could lobby for the right to carry around custom traps in the Council thread, but I would find that personally distasteful. :yuck: Out of curiosity, which Traps (magic or mundane) are you allowed to bring into combat and use offensively. I mean, without the actual trap defend package, but actually in the middle of combat? Some traps seem like they'd be very portable. Edit: Its just that I've been thinking something like a Half Dragon immune to a type of energy (say Fire) could put some magical traps to very good use. Like: Fireball Trap CR 5; magic device; touch trigger; automatic reset; spell effect (fireball, 8th-level wizard, 8d6 fire, DC 14 Reflex save half damage); Search DC 28; Disable Device DC 28. Cost: 12,000 gp, 960 XP. Now, given that automatic reset is described as either immediately available again or after some time, you'd obviously choose immediately. Resulting in a 12,000 gp magic item that casts a 8d6 fireball at point blank range every time someone hits you or grapples you (assuming you put it on your armor).
McJarvis 03-21-07, 10:34 AM	Thanks guys-> just making sure my bases are covered. Whenever I make characters I think about whether they could survive against my other characters... obviously having a magical bow is a necessity. Though, I think facing off against TIM would require just clever tactics....hard to defend against the true-strike power attack of doom at level 3 :(
hogarth 03-21-07, 10:36 AM	Though, I think facing off against TIM would require just clever tactics....hard to defend against the true-strike power attack of doom at level 3 :( Power stone of Psionic Levitation. (Also, I wouldn't call 4-6 extra points of damage "doom", but that's just me.)
Hirumajoe 03-21-07, 10:40 AM	I would say that you can't bring in "portable" traps (other than spells like Fire Trap, Symbol, Explosive Runes, etc.) simply because there are no rules governing them. You could lobby for the right to carry around custom traps in the Council thread, but I would find that personally distasteful. :yuck: Ok, so it limited to traps generated by spells. I don't want to change anything, I just wanted to know what the limits currently are. Still, you might be able to do some interesting "quickened" effects with the traps spells. Although I suppose nothing really compares to a Symbol of Weakness with Permanancy cast on it (for the cost of ~22,500 ish gp) Unlimited number of forced Fortitude saves every fight for 3d6 strength damage and up to your speed/10' in a single round. (Although I guess undead could cause you problems.) Actually... With enough credits, that probably would work pretty well for a long time. Get a 20th level caster to do it and you could afford that by ECL 8 or so and not really worry about it being dispelled until 15th or so. And it'd be DC 20 (or if you got it heightened to 8th, DC 22). Along with a Barbarian level, Speed of Thought, and a caster level to get expeditious retreat. 80' movement means up to 16 saves a round (on a double move).
McJarvis 03-21-07, 10:41 AM	Power stone of Psionic Levitation. That'd be a tough one to impliment. TIM's 15 ft square(while mounted), 15 ft reach(can reach you when you're 30 ft up without jumping-> likely a full 40 ft with a jump & that strength), large speed, and thus high jump capacity would actually render this tactic pretty ineffective. (unless you intended on hanging in air 60 ft above the ground, just waiting for levitate & TIM's buffs to wear out...)
hogarth 03-21-07, 10:51 AM	That'd be a tough one to impliment. TIM's 15 ft square(while mounted), 15 ft reach(can reach you when you're 30 ft up without jumping-> likely a full 40 ft with a jump & that strength) Er...you do know that a 10 ft high jump is a DC 40 check, right? That's nothing to sneeze at. unless you intended on hanging in air 60 ft above the ground, just waiting for levitate & TIM's buffs to wear out. Your character is an archer. I figured he'd use...archery...and stuff. ;)
McJarvis 03-21-07, 10:57 AM	Er...you do know that a 10 ft high jump is a DC 40 check, right? That's nothing to sneeze at. With a natural +20(80-30=50. 50/10=5. 5*4=20) to jump checks on dreamer due to her sheer speed?(let alone strength mods & other what-nots) I think TIM can manage ;) Your character is an archer. I figured he'd use...archery...and stuff. ;) TIM has the option to just hide behind full cover until levitate wears off. (I've had multiple fights ruled this way while using TAG). Sure, there may be delay penalties...but the archer is avoiding(not going towards) TIM just as much as TIM is not going towards the archer. Anyway-> like I said...it'll boil down to tactics. I _think_ a smart archer could avoid the true strike, but it'd be tough & would take fairly detailed tactics of "when to do what"
hogarth 03-21-07, 11:01 AM	With a natural +20(80-30=50. 50/10=5. 5*4=20) to jump checks on dreamer due to her sheer speed? I think TIM can manage ;) Maybe. There is one point I think you're missing, though. Task Ride DC Leap 15 Leap: You can get your mount to leap obstacles as part of its movement. Use your Ride modifier or the mount's Jump modifier, whichever is lower, to see how far the creature can jump. I'm not saying it's impossible, just not as easy as you might think. You're right about the delay problems with levitation, of course.
McJarvis 03-21-07, 11:07 AM	Maybe. There is one point I think you're missing, though. Couldn't TIM use Handle Animal instead of ride? This is an animal companion, after all. Plus, of course, he's not trying to get the mount to jump over something. He just wants it to jump up ^¿^ Though TIM's jump check is about that high too...((he does share-cast that exp retreat, after all...)) Tactics, tactics, tactics....
Tellish_of_Ket 03-21-07, 12:21 PM	Is it just IMT that's on a two-week schedule, or are the regular pairings as well? Anyone know? ToK
Erithmu 03-21-07, 12:21 PM	Just the IMT ... the Regular pairings will be done today
Abyssal Stalker 03-21-07, 12:59 PM	Where do you guys get the idea that a medium character mounted on a large creature is somehow 15ft tall? It's not like you would be standing on a horse... For simplicity, assume that you share your mount’s space during combat.
hogarth 03-21-07, 01:00 PM	Where do you guys get the idea that a medium character mounted on a large creature is somehow 15ft tall? It's not like you would be standing on a horse... The horse/animal companion in question would be enlarged via Enlarge Person. Thus it would be a Huge creature. See some of The Illustrated Man's fights for the bloody details. ;)
Tellish_of_Ket 03-21-07, 01:02 PM	Where do you guys get the idea that a medium character mounted on a large creature is somehow 15ft tall? It's not like you would be standing on a horse... I agree. This is a very common misconception. You SHARE the space...not stand on top of it. ToK
Abyssal Stalker 03-21-07, 01:04 PM	The horse/animal companion in question would be enlarged via Enlarge Person. Thus it would be a Huge creature. See some of The Illustrated Man's fights for the bloody details. ;) How do you enlarge person a horse? Edit: There isn't stupid questions, only stupid people who ask those questions. The answer is obvious, allthough cheesy.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-21-07, 01:09 PM	How do you enlarge person a horse? Edit: There isn't stupid questions, only stupid people who ask those questions. The answer is obvious, allthough cheesy. He is a battle sorc and has a Heavy Horse as his companion, and casts enlarge person, sharing it with his "companion". ToK
TheMagister 03-21-07, 01:11 PM	Which is damned ingenious. I liked the hell out of it the first time I saw it. :)
Hirumajoe 03-21-07, 01:14 PM	Couldn't TIM use Handle Animal instead of ride? This is an animal companion, after all. Plus, of course, he's not trying to get the mount to jump over something. He just wants it to jump up ^¿^ Hmm... I guess since one of his tricks isn't "Jump on Command" it'd be a push. So a DC 25 Handle animal check. Easier way would probably be getting a +2 Headband of Intellect and just taking it off your head and putting it on your horse's. :D Then no ride checks are needed. Just hand signals.
hogarth 03-21-07, 01:21 PM	Cheesy rules abuse of the day: According to the rules, a weapon (or other non-armor object) made out of mithral costs +500 gp/lb and is automatically masterwork quality. So does a masterwork dagger (302 gp) cost more than a mithral dagger (252 gp)? :D
McJarvis 03-21-07, 01:49 PM	Hmm... I guess since one of his tricks isn't "Jump on Command" it'd be a push. So a DC 25 Handle animal check. Easier way would probably be getting a +2 Headband of Intellect and just taking it off your head and putting it on your horse's. :D Then no ride checks are needed. Just hand signals. Ooooo...I like it B-). I think I know what TIM's next purchase might be.... A cloak of resistance. His saves suxx0rs..... :(
Hirumajoe 03-21-07, 02:03 PM	Ooooo...I like it B-). I think I know what TIM's next purchase might be.... A cloak of resistance. His saves suxx0rs..... :( Scroll of Fox's Cunning? Not like you need to do it all the time...
McJarvis 03-21-07, 02:11 PM	Scroll of Fox's Cunning? Not like you need to do it all the time... Ah, very good point! I think TIM can afford to slide a 150 gp scroll into his expendible list at this point... :D Thanks hirm!
Tellish_of_Ket 03-21-07, 02:13 PM	Cheesy rules abuse of the day: According to the rules, a weapon (or other non-armor object) made out of mithral costs +500 gp/lb and is automatically masterwork quality. So does a masterwork dagger (302 gp) cost more than a mithral dagger (252 gp)? :D Well, if a mithril weapon costs +500 gp/lb and a dagger weights one pound, wouldn't that make the mithril dagger 502gp? ToK
Hirumajoe 03-21-07, 02:14 PM	Well, if a mithril weapon costs +500 gp/lb and a dagger weights one pound, wouldn't that make the mithril dagger 502gp? ToK Well, how about a dagger designed for a small character? Doesn't that weight half as much?
hogarth 03-21-07, 02:21 PM	Well, if a mithril weapon costs +500 gp/lb and a dagger weights one pound, wouldn't that make the mithril dagger 502gp? A mithral dagger weighs 1/2 lb. (since mithral items weigh half as much).
Abyssal Stalker 03-21-07, 02:21 PM	Hmm... I guess since one of his tricks isn't "Jump on Command" it'd be a push. So a DC 25 Handle animal check. Easier way would probably be getting a +2 Headband of Intellect and just taking it off your head and putting it on your horse's. :D Then no ride checks are needed. Just hand signals. Actually, I think there was some rule preventing this. When I asked if I could get around the 6 tricks max rule with handle animal allies by giving it an INT boost item, I was turned down. It had something to do with this: An animal possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). -Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).
Hirumajoe 03-21-07, 02:22 PM	A mithral dagger weighs 1/2 lb. (since mithral items weigh half as much). But the price is based on the original weight, not the new weight.
Hirumajoe 03-21-07, 02:25 PM	Actually, I think there was some rule preventing this. When I asked if I could get around the 6 tricks max rule with handle animal allies by giving it an INT boost item, I was turned down. It had something to do with this: Oh well. I guess TIM will just have to wait for polymorph...
hogarth 03-21-07, 02:27 PM	But the price is based on the original weight, not the new weight. Sez hoo?
Tellish_of_Ket 03-21-07, 02:33 PM	But the price is based on the original weight, not the new weight. True. It's based on original weight, then you cut the weight in half. Or at least i've always thought that...can't find the rule to say otherwise, so i could be wrong. ToK
hogarth 03-21-07, 02:51 PM	True. It's based on original weight, then you cut the weight in half. Or at least i've always thought that...can't find the rule to say otherwise, so i could be wrong. It says that for darkwood, but it just says "+500 gp/lb" for mithral.
TheMagister 03-21-07, 02:56 PM	Dorje of HammerA [ML 3] [44 charges] [.25 lbs][4500 gp] Dorje of Offensive PrecognitionA [ML 4] [45 charges] [.25 lbs][6000 gp] So are these correct?
hogarth 03-21-07, 03:01 PM	So are these correct? To my understanding, yes.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-21-07, 03:36 PM	FIVE new prison violations up for Darkwood offenders from Leagues 1 & 2. Plz check.
Zevox 03-21-07, 03:39 PM	So are these correct? They look correct to me. Priced as PL 2 powers of their ML, as per current ruling. Zevox
Zevox 03-21-07, 03:45 PM	FIVE new prison violations up for Darkwood offenders from Leagues 1 & 2. Plz check. The Darkwood shields you have the wrong cost for. You added 300 gp for the darkwood, but it should only be 100 (10 gp per pound on base item, 10 lbs on heavy wooden shields, 10*10=100). Therefore Koric's violation and that part of Lord Lorian's violation are invalid. Also, on Harbinger's violation, I'm not sure what our last ruling on whether or not strength bonuses from composite bows are multiplied for being large was, so perhaps someone else could comment on that, but the darkwood part definitely would be, so that should add 120 gp to that bow, not just 60. Zevox
Tellish_of_Ket 03-21-07, 03:46 PM	FIVE new prison violations up for Darkwood offenders from Leagues 1 & 2. Plz check. Incedently, there are LOTS more to violate. I still see about 7 more gladitors to toss in there for darkwood violations. Just tired...ugh. All that cut/pasting. So by all means search leagues 3 and up...there are many more for those that are credit hungry. ToK
MindWandererB 03-21-07, 03:56 PM	Also, on Harbinger's violation, I'm not sure what our last ruling on whether or not strength bonuses from composite bows are multiplied for being large was, so perhaps someone else could comment on that, but the darkwood part definitely would be, so that should add 120 gp to that bow, not just 60. ZevoxWe decided that they weren't multiplied. I don't think it's right to multiply the darkwood component--it's already based on weight, so a Large one shouldn't cost 4 times as much.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-21-07, 04:04 PM	The Darkwood shields you have the wrong cost for. You added 300 gp for the darkwood, but it should only be 100 (10 gp per pound on base item, 10 lbs on heavy wooden shields, 10*10=100). Therefore Koric's violation and that part of Lord Lorian's violation are invalid. Also, on Harbinger's violation, I'm not sure what our last ruling on whether or not strength bonuses from composite bows are multiplied for being large was, so perhaps someone else could comment on that, but the darkwood part definitely would be, so that should add 120 gp to that bow, not just 60. Zevox Man, i think i was in 30gp mode for the bows, while doing the darkwood shields. lol. K, those ones are removed. Darkwood i believe is based on weight. There is already one factor there to take size into account. ToK
Rauul 03-21-07, 04:18 PM	so is.. this price right or not.. 1 Darkwood Composite Longbow (+3 Str)[730.00 gp]
Guildmaster (TLT) 03-21-07, 04:21 PM	For the first time in many months, The Living Tree has room to spare for new members! Anyone with respect for nature and the balance of life is encouraged to apply; The Living Tree is not only for druids! Anyone interested should contact me, or post in the guild thread.
Macbrea 03-21-07, 04:34 PM	'You giving up your forest for the betterment of my standard of living?', snorts Lord Frost.
MindWandererB 03-21-07, 04:51 PM	Assuming a context for that comment: "I don't think so," Kervan replies. "We fight to protect nature, not to twist it for our benefit. Only those who can live in harmony with life's bounty are welcome among us."
Macbrea 03-21-07, 04:53 PM	'With nature comes destruction and renewal. Each creature must be brought down to it's base ashes in order to be reborn.', chuckles Frost.
SauroGrenom 03-21-07, 04:57 PM	Whatever happened with the PMG that CEF wanted to start up as their second PMG? Was is allowed?
hogarth 03-21-07, 05:02 PM	Reginald Molehusband quips, "You seemed less than enthusiastic the last time I sent "nature's bounty" to sit on your head (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10807801&postcount=312), Sheharath. But maybe your group has some merit. Do you know where I can find a herd of man-eating bison so add to my menagerie? I need something to replace my team of attack-donkeys -- they lost their killer instinct and consequently I had to sell them to a local glue merchant."
MindWandererB 03-21-07, 05:43 PM	Whatever happened with the PMG that CEF wanted to start up as their second PMG? Was is allowed? Cat argued that if he had "known" that the relocation of the Freedom Fighters would count as his one invented group, he never would have done it. So the Freedom Fighters disbanded, allowing him to create his new group. Apparently they succeeded, but I never got a PM, so the group was never added to the list. And Cat never added it to the map, either. So I sit here and wait for him to give me the details on the group he invented.
MindWandererB 03-21-07, 05:47 PM	Reginald Molehusband quips, "You seemed less than enthusiastic the last time I sent "nature's bounty" to sit on your head (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10807801&postcount=312), Sheharath. But maybe your group has some merit. Do you know where I can find a herd of man-eating bison so add to my menagerie? I need something to replace my team of attack-donkeys -- they lost their killer instinct and consequently I had to sell them to a local glue merchant." Kervan looks slightly sick. "I'm sure you know that bison are herbivores--if you want to train them to fight, you're on your own. I certainly won't help you find any animals which you consider so disposable."
SauroGrenom 03-21-07, 05:57 PM	FYI Herbivores and similar ruminants attack with their natural weapons as secondary weapons. They are not the best choice for animals to fight in the arena.
MindWandererB 03-21-07, 05:58 PM	FYI Herbivores and similar ruminants attack with their natural weapons as secondary weapons. They are not the best choice for animals to fight in the arena. Not most of them. Horses, ponies, and camels, yes, but the gore attack of a bison is at the full attack value. They're pretty nasty, actually. Donkeys, mules, elephants, and rhinoceri are also all ruminants with no attack penalty.
MitzaVolchenko 03-21-07, 06:04 PM	"Hmmm...bison...sounds tasty. Not as tasty as druid, but tasty all the same," Indivara preens. "Perhaps I should join TLT...the forest is a fun place to play...but then Iwouldn't ahve pretentious outsiders to put in their place quite so regularly." "You should treat me to a nice dinner and a barrel of ale, Lord Frost. I have appropriately represented us in this silly two-legger tournament."
Macbrea 03-21-07, 06:52 PM	'Bah, I was ambushed by a two legger while dealing with that stupid half-winged outsider.', Frost tosses Indivara a bit of cat fillet. 'Some of the finest this city has to offer. Though, not sure if you like it chilled or well done.'
Macbrea 03-22-07, 02:54 PM	Have a silly question: Is Halfling Were-rat (swarm, shapechanger, halfling) a legal race choice?
templer10 03-22-07, 02:57 PM	Have a silly question: Is Halfling Were-rat (swarm, shapechanger, halfling) a legal race choice? where u get the swarm from?
hogarth 03-22-07, 02:58 PM	Have a silly question: Is Halfling Were-rat (swarm, shapechanger, halfling) a legal race choice? I would say "no" on a were-rat-swarm since it's actually made up of 300 creatures.
Macbrea 03-22-07, 02:59 PM	lycanthrope says you have to choose a legal animal within 1 size category of the humanoid or giant. Rat Swarm is listed as Animal (swarm). So, does the subrace matter when making the lycanthrop. I might mention warlocks have the ability to become a swarm later in their career.
Zevox 03-22-07, 03:03 PM	Last I heard of such a thing was when Cat mentioned that he had once had to convince LLMC that a Were-Bat Swarm wasn't feasible. Quite frankly, its a ridiculous idea - swarms aren't a single animal, they're hundreds or thousands of them that just fight as though they were a single creature, so they don't qualify for Lycanthropy. Zevox
SauroGrenom 03-22-07, 03:05 PM	New FAQ today! Mostly it includes things from the Ask Wizards section of the main website.
Macbrea 03-22-07, 03:06 PM	Heh.. sorry. was just trying to figure out a way to make Soulknife viable. 300 Halfling were-rat swarm wielding double mind blades! :P
hogarth 03-22-07, 03:15 PM	I might mention warlocks have the ability to become a swarm later in their career. There's a "swarm-shifter" template in Libris Mortis, too. Still doesn't change my opinion, though. I don't even think you should be able to train a swarm with Handle Animal.
sonofzeal 03-22-07, 05:24 PM	Two quick questions. 1) Can someone, as part of an Attack of Oppertunity, provoke an AoO themselves, from the person they were attacking? For example, Bob tries to shoot Joe in melee, but Joe takes the AoO to try and sunder Bob's bow, but doesn't have Improved Sunder, so he provokes an AoO. Can Bob take that AoO to shoot Joe, if he hasn't used any of his AoO's yet? 2) How does being blind interact with grappling? I remember that the attacker in a grapple does count as making an attack, but the defender doesn't. The 50% failure for total concealment still applies then, right?
templer10 03-22-07, 05:42 PM	Two quick questions. 1) Can someone, as part of an Attack of Oppertunity, provoke an AoO themselves, from the person they were attacking? For example, Bob tries to shoot Joe in melee, but Joe takes the AoO to try and sunder Bob's bow, but doesn't have Improved Sunder, so he provokes an AoO. Can Bob take that AoO to shoot Joe, if he hasn't used any of his AoO's yet? 2) How does being blind interact with grappling? I remember that the attacker in a grapple does count as making an attack, but the defender doesn't. The 50% failure for total concealment still applies then, right? For 1 - for that spesific example no he cant shoot since you dont threaten with a bow but generaly speaking technicly there is nothing in the rules I know off that say you cant- even through logicly it's wierd and i can think of a couple of inifinite loop situations - say 1 guy attempt to sunder without imp sunder then second use the AoA to sunder without imp sunder etc etc. for 2- personaly i doubt it count- when grappling you are basicly wrestling- ever wrestled? eyes dont reall play much of a part - but that's my own opinion i have no idead if there is any rule that cover this.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-22-07, 05:48 PM	2) How does being blind interact with grappling? I remember that the attacker in a grapple does count as making an attack, but the defender doesn't. The 50% failure for total concealment still applies then, right? Mac answered 1, i'll answer #2. NO! It's an opposed grapple check, not an actuall attack. If he's taking the -4 to "attack" his opponent, then yes, he suffers 50% miss chance. ToK
SauroGrenom 03-22-07, 06:01 PM	Two quick questions. 1) Can someone, as part of an Attack of Oppertunity, provoke an AoO themselves, from the person they were attacking? For example, Bob tries to shoot Joe in melee, but Joe takes the AoO to try and sunder Bob's bow, but doesn't have Improved Sunder, so he provokes an AoO. Can Bob take that AoO to shoot Joe, if he hasn't used any of his AoO's yet?You already have answers for this, but the question makes me think of the situation where two guys with combat reflexes and a decent dex are in melee, one guy wants to initiate a grapple, the other guy wants to trip and neither have weapons or the necessary improved xxx feats. Each uses the AoO's to try again at their chosen kinds of special attack. It's like the Three Stooges! Nested AoO's... :twitch:
sonofzeal 03-22-07, 06:11 PM	You already have answers for this, but the question makes me think of the situation where two guys with combat reflexes and a decent dex are in melee, one guy wants to initiate a grapple, the other guy wants to trip and neither have weapons or the necessary improved xxx feats. Each uses the AoO's to try again at their chosen kinds of special attack. It's like the Three Stooges! Nested AoO's... :twitch: Ah, but unless both have infinite dex, the chain will end somewhere.... possibly after setting the new world record for actions in a round. ^^
MindWandererB 03-22-07, 07:12 PM	Two quick questions. 1) Can someone, as part of an Attack of Oppertunity, provoke an AoO themselves, from the person they were attacking? For example, Bob tries to shoot Joe in melee, but Joe takes the AoO to try and sunder Bob's bow, but doesn't have Improved Sunder, so he provokes an AoO. Can Bob take that AoO to shoot Joe, if he hasn't used any of his AoO's yet? 2) How does being blind interact with grappling? I remember that the attacker in a grapple does count as making an attack, but the defender doesn't. The 50% failure for total concealment still applies then, right?Yeah, just to clarify: #1 is addressed on the FAQ, and it's limited to Combat Reflexes. However, Bob cannot make a ranged attack as an AoO--if he had spiked gauntlets, spiked armor, Improved Unarmed Strike, or a natural weapon, he could use that. He gets his AoO renewed at the beginning of his next turn. And if Bob did something that provoked an AoO in return, like disarming Joe, then Joe would not be able to take yet another AoO unless he had Combat Reflexes. #2: Attacks count as making attacks. So the attacker suffers a 50% miss chance on the initial touch attack, but not thereafter. However, if one of them decided to use a weapon in the grapple, that would have the miss chance.
templer10 03-23-07, 06:17 AM	who do i need to PM if i wasnt credited the right amount of credits for last week? the pitlords acount?
Abyssal Stalker 03-23-07, 06:44 AM	who do i need to PM if i wasnt credited the right amount of credits for last week? the pitlords acount? Pitlords or Caterane
Zevox 03-23-07, 12:31 PM	@ MWB/Guildlords - Pardon me, but I noticed that the para-military group attack this week says the Order of the Open Handed Way is attacking the EHTC. However, the roll for the attack says 106, which would mean they're attacking TAO instead (107 is where their EHTC bracket starts according to the Guildhall thread's chart). I assume this is an error on your part? BTW, that chart should also no longer contain a chance for the EHTC to be struck by the Shadow Star Assassins, since we now have a friendly attitude with them. Zevox
MindWandererB 03-23-07, 01:35 PM	@ MWB/Guildlords - Pardon me, but I noticed that the para-military group attack this week says the Order of the Open Handed Way is attacking the EHTC. However, the roll for the attack says 106, which would mean they're attacking TAO instead (107 is where their EHTC bracket starts according to the Guildhall thread's chart). I assume this is an error on your part? BTW, that chart should also no longer contain a chance for the EHTC to be struck by the Shadow Star Assassins, since we now have a friendly attitude with them. Zevox Nope, that's not an error. Since recalculating that table is such a pain in the butt, I reduced each "range" to one value, and that value is the high end of the range (as the table states). Note that 005 is the first entry, so the Church of Denth attacks CEF on 001-005. A roll of 105-107 means that the Way attacks EHTC. I only update the table when I actually get a PMG attack, again because it's a pain in the butt. The entry you mention will be removed next time.
Zevox 03-23-07, 02:13 PM	Nope, that's not an error. Since recalculating that table is such a pain in the butt, I reduced each "range" to one value, and that value is the high end of the range (as the table states). Note that 005 is the first entry, so the Church of Denth attacks CEF on 001-005. A roll of 105-107 means that the Way attacks EHTC. I only update the table when I actually get a PMG attack, again because it's a pain in the butt. The entry you mention will be removed next time. Hm, I see. Not what I expected. Oh well. Needless to say, this sucks, since most of our upper-level characters are preoccupied with the Iron Man. Oh well, guess I'll see what I can scrape together for a defense. Zevox
MindWandererB 03-23-07, 02:14 PM	Hm, I see. Not what I expected. Oh well. Needless to say, this sucks, since most of our upper-level characters are preoccupied with the Iron Man. Oh well, guess I'll see what I can scrape together for a defense. Zevox Remember, you don't need a high-level character--the operator will be matched no matter who you send.
Zevox 03-23-07, 02:23 PM	Remember, you don't need a high-level character--the operator will be matched no matter who you send. I know. Its just that our higher level characters are much better prepared to match Half-Giant monks (aka uber grapplers) than our low or mid level ones. I'd be willing to send Asran or Va'ria against one of those any day, but The Undertaker, Annalina (especially when I want to put up her rebuild at the end of this week), or Zwei? Bleh. Guess I'd best see if I can get a response out of Iced this time. Anixx would do nicely at repelling this nuisance. Zevox
SauroGrenom 03-23-07, 02:36 PM	Hi Folks! I've got two people who are interested in a PSI themed campaign. That's enough to convince me to write up the campaign. So far that's two single classed psions. I'm thinking of something in the Habari desert where they explore the ruins of an ancient buried city. This will be a classic dungeon delve to recover a specific item for a wealthy patron. On the way some kind of unexpected plot is uncovered that leads the characters on a series of explorations. So far we have psions at ECL7 and ECL8 who are interested. The party badly needs someone who's able to use healing magic (psionic healing sucks compared to divine healing). If we can get the party a bit more balanced, then I'll go ahead with it. So a ranger, paladin, cleric or even a bard would all be able to use a CLW wand. That's all they really need to fulfill the minimum set of abilities. If there's anyone who's interested, send me a PM. Thanks, Sauro
Yitzi 03-23-07, 02:52 PM	I know. Its just that our higher level characters are much better prepared to match Half-Giant monks (aka uber grapplers) than our low or mid level ones. Why is that? As a seperate point, Macbrea has informed me of the mechanism used by the CoCo dice roller (he actually got it a bit wrong, but close enough that I was able to figure out the rest): Of the 3 dimesion distances (distance in x, distance in y, distance in z), the roller takes the largest distance and adds together half of each of the others, rounded down. So from 0,0,0 to 1,1,1 is 1+[1/2]+[1/2], where the brackets mean round down, for a total of 1. From 0,0,0 to 2,2,2 is 2+[2/2]+[2/2] for a total of 4. This example illustrates a problem, in that going 1 space in each direction is less than half as much distance, even rounded down, as going 2 spaces in each direction. In effect, two diagonals in two different directions add up to 2 spaces, while two diagonals in the same direction add up to 3 spaces. To solve this, I would suggest a simple modification: round down after adding everything together. So instead of A+[B/2]+[C/2], where A is the largest distance and B and C are the other two, and [] means round down, it would be A+[B/2+C/2] or A+[(B+C)/2]. This should smooth things out somewhat. Another suggestion (although this would technically be a house rule, but unless the books give a formula so is any formula) is to have a seperate rule for a 3-dimensional move. I would suggest that just as 2-d diagonals alternate between counting as 1 and 2, 3-d diagonals should alternate between counting as 2 and as 2-d diagonals. In that case, the calculator formula would be, with A meaning the largest distance, B meaning the second largest, and C meaning the smallest, and [] meaning round down: A+[(B+C-[C/2])/2]
Zevox 03-23-07, 04:53 PM	Why is that? A variety of things open to higher-level characters that beat grappling that lower-levels don't have. Freedom of Movement, flight, massive speeds, various spells like Dimension Door, and so on. Grappling just gets much easier to counter at high levels than it is at low ones. Zevox
Tellish_of_Ket 03-23-07, 05:50 PM	In that case, the calculator formula would be, with A meaning the largest distance, B meaning the second largest, and C meaning the smallest, and [] meaning round down: A+[(B+C-[C/2])/2] I just use Pythagoras. MUCH simpler imho. ToK
Macbrea 03-23-07, 07:16 PM	I just use Pythagoras. MUCH simpler imho. ToK True. but doesn't follow the rules to DnD. Somewhere along the way someone decided that in Dnd movement should be 1 square then 2 squares diagnally. As a result, someone standing in square 12,14 compared to someone standing in square 24,27 is 95ft away rather then the 88 feet that it should be. Given that set of rules DnD should make require the same set of math going upward in order to do it correctly. Math to that being 13 + (12/2) = 19 squares.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-23-07, 07:26 PM	K, well, lemme clarify further then i guess. I don't use Pythag for 2-d on the arena floor. I just use it for Flyers at an elevation in a 3-d environment. I know it's off according to DnD, but that's just too damn bad. :) Besides, it doesn't happen often enough. It would be extremely rare where i do need to use it actually. Most times someone is like at 40' elevation and they are using declination to double their move and have ample movement to get to where they are going and no need to count...or times when they maneuverability just sucks so horribly, that you can just do the math in your head. About the only time i really use it, is when someone at ground level is shooting someone in the air with anything that requires an attack roll or has a range modifier and it MIGHT actually be close, so i'll just add up the squares on A and then on B, to see if it's worth even doing C. ToK
Abyssal Stalker 03-24-07, 04:02 AM	K, well, lemme clarify further then i guess. I don't use Pythag for 2-d on the arena floor. I just use it for Flyers at an elevation in a 3-d environment. I know it's off according to DnD, but that's just too damn bad. :) Besides, it doesn't happen often enough. It would be extremely rare where i do need to use it actually. Most times someone is like at 40' elevation and they are using declination to double their move and have ample movement to get to where they are going and no need to count...or times when they maneuverability just sucks so horribly, that you can just do the math in your head. About the only time i really use it, is when someone at ground level is shooting someone in the air with anything that requires an attack roll or has a range modifier and it MIGHT actually be close, so i'll just add up the squares on A and then on B, to see if it's worth even doing C. ToK I can't help but remember one of the most annoying fights to run. It was Little Daisy vs Archdevil Asran in the plains. Daisy was using Air Walk and riding with her animal companion. Asran's cohort polymorphed into an avoral. And Asran of course has flight, as well as Senorda's Imp familiar. It was really complicated, several flyers with different maneuverability and ranged weapons. I had no other way to handle movement than sin and cos functions. Thank god math isn't my weakest subjects.
templer10 03-24-07, 06:17 AM	question- when buying a large version of a weapon - you pay double it's cost- but if you want to make it a masterwork item do you also need to double the cost for that also - i.e. pay additional 600 GP instead of additional 300 GP?
Abyssal Stalker 03-24-07, 06:37 AM	No, I think. Masterwork cost is always a flat 300gp. Material costs are multiplied, and that makes calculating difficult sometimes. For example a large mithril chain shirt costs: 2x(1000-150)+100=1800gp. Or a large adamantine greatsword costs: 2x(3000-300)+100=5500gp. I'm drawing these out of my head, but I think it works like that. Edit: Actually, I can't find anything saying that large weapons would cost more.
Zevox 03-24-07, 10:00 AM	Edit: Actually, I can't find anything saying that large weapons would cost more. Its right under basic weapon info: Cost: This value is the weapon’s cost in gold pieces (gp) or silver pieces (sp). The cost includes miscellaneous gear that goes with the weapon. This cost is the same for a Small or Medium version of the weapon. A Large version costs twice the listed price. You were a little off on the adamantine greatsword though. Its 2x(3000-300) [adamanatine] + 100 [large greatsword] + 300 [masterwork] = 5800. You've got to remember to add the MW cost back in after multiplying the material cost without it. Zevox
Abyssal Stalker 03-24-07, 10:23 AM	I knew I was forgetting something... I was right at one thing at least - it is difficult sometimes :)
MitzaVolchenko 03-24-07, 11:38 AM	K, well, lemme clarify further then i guess. I don't use Pythag for 2-d on the arena floor. I just use it for Flyers at an elevation in a 3-d environment. I know it's off according to DnD, but that's just too damn bad. :) Besides, it doesn't happen often enough. It would be extremely rare where i do need to use it actually. Most times someone is like at 40' elevation and they are using declination to double their move and have ample movement to get to where they are going and no need to count...or times when they maneuverability just sucks so horribly, that you can just do the math in your head. About the only time i really use it, is when someone at ground level is shooting someone in the air with anything that requires an attack roll or has a range modifier and it MIGHT actually be close, so i'll just add up the squares on A and then on B, to see if it's worth even doing C. ToK Pythagoras never applies to D&D. My first encounter with flyers as a pitlord in CoCo was a team fight. It made me so utterly angry that I wheedled and plead until Mal-2 wrote the nifty distance calculator which is linked at the top of the FotW thread.
UserNamer 03-24-07, 01:58 PM	How do I calculate a creature's CR when raised with animate dead?
Zevox 03-24-07, 02:19 PM	How do I calculate a creature's CR when raised with animate dead? That info is given in the skeleton and zombie templates. Theres tables for the CR based on how many HD the animated creature has. Zevox
UserNamer 03-24-07, 03:41 PM	stupid question, nevermind
MindWandererB 03-24-07, 05:20 PM	Are we allowed to dismiss and replace cohorts? Maya will be getting Leadership next level, but the cohort she ultimately wants has a minimum ECL of 6, and it would be nice to have a "placeholder" cohort in the meantime.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-24-07, 05:22 PM	Are we allowed to dismiss and replace cohorts? Maya will be getting Leadership next level, but the cohort she ultimately wants has a minimum ECL of 6, and it would be nice to have a "placeholder" cohort in the meantime. Yup, i do this with my casters that get cohorts all the time. I keep arguing with Cat, but it's in the rules, so it gets done. Unless he makes a house-rule denouncing it, it will keep getting done by my arcane casters. ToK
templer10 03-24-07, 05:51 PM	are cantrips/orisons are subject to the 1/3 rule - ergo that someone with 3 lev 0 spells per day can only cast 1 per fight?
hogarth 03-24-07, 06:31 PM	Are we allowed to dismiss and replace cohorts? Maya will be getting Leadership next level, but the cohort she ultimately wants has a minimum ECL of 6, and it would be nice to have a "placeholder" cohort in the meantime. Just to clarify, you would need a new miniquest for each prospective cohort, wouldn't you?
TheMagister 03-24-07, 06:40 PM	are cantrips/orisons are subject to the 1/3 rule - ergo that someone with 3 lev 0 spells per day can only cast 1 per fight? Let's say a level 8 Wizard with Int 22 memorized the following spells: Wizard abilities: -Spells per day: (4)/6/5/3/2 Spells Memorized 0: Daze, Daze, Daze, Daze 1: Shield, Mage Armor, Ray of Enfeeblement, Magic Missile, Magic Missile, Expeditious Retreat 2: Invisibility, False Life, Mirror Image, Hideous Laughter, Hideous Laughter 3: Dispel Magic, Dispel Magic, Fly 4: Greater Invisibility, Polymorph First, we add up all the spell slot levels. This wizard has 6 level 1 spell slots, 5 level 2 spell slots, 3 level 3's, and 2 level 4's. 6*1 + 5*2 + 3*3 + 2*4 = 32. Ildechai can cast a total of 32 spell levels a day. Now, dividing that number by 3 and rounding up, we get 11. Thus, this wizard could cast 11 spell levels' worth of spells in every fight. He can choose exactly which spells he wants to cast, as long as they don't add up to more than 11 spell levels and as long as the spell isn't already used up. For instance, he could choose to cast Greater Invisibility, Polymorph, and Fly. Or all his level 1 spells, and Invisibility and False life... that'd only bring the total to 10, but since he wouldn't have any level 1 spells left, the remaining 1 spell level would be wasted. Or he could cast Polymorph, Dispel Magic, Mirror Image, and two Magic Missiles. Any combination of spells totalling no more than 11 spell levels. He can use his level 0 spells as he sees fit; they make no difference. Another example: let's look at a level 8 Sorcerer with Cha 18. That Sorcerer would have a total of 58 spell levels castable per day (7 level 1 spell slots, 7 level 2 spell slots, 6 level 3's, and 4 level 4's; 7*1 + 7*2 + 6*3 + 4*4 = 55) meaning he could cast 19 of them per fight. (55/3, rounded up) He could, for instance, choose to blast off all 4 of his 4th level spells, and still have enough oomph left for two second level spells. There ya go.
MindWandererB 03-24-07, 07:26 PM	Just to clarify, you would need a new miniquest for each prospective cohort, wouldn't you? Yeah, that would be the plan. Although I might be able to "demote" my old cohort into a follower if the timing works out, and I leave it at level 1. I'm still trying to figure out what would be more useful to Maya--a more competent warrior, a direct caster, or a caster that can buff her up. And since it's vitally important that she have a mount, the cohort's ECL will be at least 1 lower than the maximum... maybe even more than one (an elite custom warhorse is more than a little tempting).
Erithmu 03-24-07, 07:31 PM	Yeah, that would be the plan. Although I might be able to "demote" my old cohort into a follower if the timing works out, and I leave it at level 1. I'm still trying to figure out what would be more useful to Maya--a more competent warrior, a direct caster, or a caster that can buff her up. And since it's vitally important that she have a mount, the cohort's ECL will be at least 1 lower than the maximum... maybe even more than one (an elite custom warhorse is more than a little tempting).You could also take the feat at 6th, then let it sit till 7th level and do a full quest to get your cohort and it will be fine.
MindWandererB 03-24-07, 07:50 PM	You could also take the feat at 6th, then let it sit till 7th level and do a full quest to get your cohort and it will be fine. How does that help? I'd still be two whole levels without a cohort.
Zevox 03-24-07, 08:17 PM	Meh, Mithos has the same issue with the Pegasus he wants to get, and I just decided to save leadership for 9th level and pick up some handle animal Hippogriffs at 6th instead. Of course, since Maya's charisma is so much lower than his an she has more levels where thats cross-class skill, thats not feasible for her. Ah well, thems the breaks. Zevox
Tellish_of_Ket 03-24-07, 09:09 PM	Question: Can a gladiator who qualifies for the Assinate (Attack) skill package able to use the "one" pre-buff on that attack to make an actual death attack if that person is an assassin? Or does he/she not even have to spend a pre-buff for that sort of thing as it would be "assumed" and could pre-buff a poison on said weapon? ToK
TaggIIV 03-24-07, 09:16 PM	Does the Quick Draw feat allow sheathing weapons as a free action (doesn't explicitly say so but it would make sense)? Is sheathing already a free action?
NiQil 03-24-07, 09:26 PM	Does the Quick Draw feat allow sheathing weapons as a free action (doesn't explicitly say so but it would make sense)? Is sheathing already a free action? No, and no.
NiQil 03-24-07, 09:37 PM	Consider adding a "----------pitlords snip from here down---------" line in your character sheets. I posted them in their entirety here, but most of us delete unnecessary information before we post sheets (saves on space). @ TM and everyone else: First, let me preface this by saying, TM, that I am not trying to single you out...it just happened to be your quote that prompted this... What TM stated above is something that should not be happening on a regular basis. There is not, nor will there ever be (as long as I run the Prison), a line on the character sheets that pitlords would be encouraged to use to cut information beneath it. Sheets should be posted in their entirety. Snipping sheets should be a special circumstance that might be needed if you have the fight and the sheets and tactics and you need to trim a couple of hundred characters from somewhere to make them all fit in one post. If you are consistantly running into problems getting fights in one post, then I would recommend examining your style of pitlording to see if there are any things that you yourself may be able trim. Or, as many already do, you are welcome to post one post for sheets and tactics and another for the fight and results, as long as you link the two together. But trimming of sheets is not something that should be a normal occurance.
hogarth 03-24-07, 10:41 PM	But trimming of sheets is not something that should be a normal occurance. Why is several essays' worth of background information (in some cases) important to preserve in its entirety over and over? :confused:
Zevox 03-24-07, 10:55 PM	Why is several essays' worth of background information (in some cases) important to preserve in its entirety over and over? :confused: Welcome to why I put my background info in a seperate post and just link it to my character sheets. :) Zevox
Yitzi 03-25-07, 12:15 AM	massive speeds Except that the king grapplers are monks, who also happen to be kings at speed at high levels (although I suppose you could improve it by combining monk with other speed-boosters such as a psionic class for speed of thought (insight bonus, so it stacks), and, if you're willing to take the multiclassing penalty (in the case of a half-giant; for half-orc or human or half-elf, it won't be a problem), ex-barbarian for the +10 unnamed bonus. Wizards' expeditious retreat also beats monks' speed, but only up to level 9 monk (ECL 10 for half-giant))
Zevox 03-25-07, 12:28 AM	Except that the king grapplers are monks, who also happen to be kings at speed at high levels (although I suppose you could improve it by combining monk with other speed-boosters such as a psionic class for speed of thought (insight bonus, so it stacks), and, if you're willing to take the multiclassing penalty (in the case of a half-giant; for half-orc or human or half-elf, it won't be a problem), ex-barbarian for the +10 unnamed bonus. Wizards' expeditious retreat also beats monks' speed, but only up to level 9 monk (ECL 10 for half-giant)) Pah, its only straight monks that can claim that, and I can count the number of those above level 3 in the arena right now on one finger (not counting level 3s because straight monks almost never advance past that before being retired). Everyone else multiclasses, thus losing the ability to advance in that class, and usually before even getting the first speed boost. Besides, most of the huge speeds you can get at upper levels come in the form of flight anyway. For mounts you've got 120' on a Pegasus, 100' on a Hippogriff, 80' on Griffons and Giant Eagles, that sort of thing. If you're a Dragon you've got 150' fly speed. Not to mention even on land you've got extra speed from Haste or Boots of Speed (and better, in the air you can use those in tandem with the Fly spell/potion for 90' fly speed). Zevox
MindWandererB 03-25-07, 12:50 AM	Question: Can a gladiator who qualifies for the Assinate (Attack) skill package able to use the "one" pre-buff on that attack to make an actual death attack if that person is an assassin? Or does he/she not even have to spend a pre-buff for that sort of thing as it would be "assumed" and could pre-buff a poison on said weapon? ToKEr, no. No package gives you the three rounds of observation you need for this. Meh, Mithos has the same issue with the Pegasus he wants to get, and I just decided to save leadership for 9th level and pick up some handle animal Hippogriffs at 6th instead. Of course, since Maya's charisma is so much lower than his an she has more levels where thats cross-class skill, thats not feasible for her. Ah well, thems the breaks. Zevox More importantly, Maya is going for Slayer later on, and since I don't want to take a level of Ranger, it'll cost her a feat for Track. Since Track is more useless than Leadership, she's taking Leadership first.
Zevox 03-25-07, 02:21 AM	Interesting thought I just had: when the Zombie template doubles a creature's HD, does that give it the ability score boosts for the appropriate HD numbers it passes? I.e. would a 4 HD creature made into a zombie gain +1 to one of its ability scores (limited obviously to str and dex since the template negates or resets the others) for its new 8th hit dice? Zevox
MindWandererB 03-25-07, 02:56 AM	Interesting thought I just had: when the Zombie template doubles a creature's HD, does that give it the ability score boosts for the appropriate HD numbers it passes? I.e. would a 4 HD creature made into a zombie gain +1 to one of its ability scores (limited obviously to str and dex since the template negates or resets the others) for its new 8th hit dice? Zevox Presumably not--the sample zombies would have done it.
TheMagister 03-25-07, 03:15 AM	That is an interesting thought! ToK and I were kicking around the idea of animating a 10HD Giant Octopus Zombie. It'll be undead, so it doesn't need to breathe. It'll have 22 Str (25 if it gains 1 every 4 HD) and a (get this) twenty foot reach with its tentacles. It has Improved Grab and Constrict, so it can slam an enemy, improved grab it, constrict it, and hold it. Next turn, it can slam another bad guy, grab it, and constrict it. Repeat up to EIGHT TIMES. Not bad! The only drawback is a CR of 6 (which still ain't too bad!). TM
MindWandererB 03-25-07, 03:20 AM	That is an interesting thought! ToK and I were kicking around the idea of animating a 10HD Giant Octopus Zombie. It'll be undead, so it doesn't need to breathe. It'll have 22 Str (25 if it gains 1 every 4 HD) and a (get this) twenty foot reach with its tentacles. It has Improved Grab and Constrict, so it can slam an enemy, improved grab it, constrict it, and hold it. Next turn, it can slam another bad guy, grab it, and constrict it. Repeat up to EIGHT TIMES. Not bad! The only drawback is a CR of 6 (which still ain't too bad!). TMNope. A skeleton maybe, but not a zombie. That single-action only thing is gonna whack you in the butt. Only one tentacle for you.
Abyssal Stalker 03-25-07, 03:24 AM	Nope. A skeleton maybe, but not a zombie. That single-action only thing is gonna whack you in the butt. Only one tentacle for you. And this brought up the next question: what kind of skeleton an octopus has?
MindWandererB 03-25-07, 03:36 AM	And this brought up the next question: what kind of skeleton an octopus has? ...that's a good question. Octopi have no bones, only cartilege. So my bad; I don't thinl you can make skeletons out of them at all.
TheMagister 03-25-07, 04:15 AM	Nope. A skeleton maybe, but not a zombie. That single-action only thing is gonna whack you in the butt. Only one tentacle for you. Well, yeah. I don't think I ever hinted otherwise. A zombie (good HP) with 20' move speed and 20' reach and 22 Str (before enhancement) is STILL a good zombie. Heck, it could still charge and slam in one turn. And it has CONSTRICT! Every successful grapple check deals damage! What's not to like? Slam: 1d8+9 plus Constrict 2d8+6. Man, that's GREAT! And a 20' reach means at least one AoO a round if you (the master) stay close to it. Constrict Question: It kinda confuses me. "If the creature also has the improved grab ability, it deals constriction damage in addition to damage dealt by the weapon used to grab." Doesn't that mean that the giant octopus zombie deals 1d8+9+2d8+6 on a successful grapple check (even after the initial slam attack)? Reading the language under the Improved Grab ability seems to back me up... "A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text)." OUCH! TM
MindWandererB 03-25-07, 04:50 AM	Well, yeah. I don't think I ever hinted otherwise.It has Improved Grab and Constrict, so it can slam an enemy, improved grab it, constrict it, and hold it. Next turn, it can slam another bad guy, grab it, and constrict it. Repeat up to EIGHT TIMES. Not bad!That's where I inferred otherwise. or did you mean that it can grapple 8 opponents at once at -20 to its grapple check? That's true enough.
hogarth 03-25-07, 09:27 AM	Well, yeah. I don't think I ever hinted otherwise. A zombie (good HP) with 20' move speed and 20' reach and 22 Str (before enhancement) is STILL a good zombie. Heck, it could still charge and slam in one turn. And it has CONSTRICT! Zombies lose all special attacks, of course (including Improved Grab and Constrict). Pretty much all they can do is lumber up to someone and punch them. I think I'd stick with a 12-headed pyrohydra skeleton if I wanted a slow-moving CR 6 undead buddy.
Zevox 03-25-07, 10:05 AM	@ MWB - Good point. Meh, oh well, it was just a thought I had when looking over a couple of creatures as potential zombies. @ TM - Yeah, no improved grab or constrict on that. Zombies (and Skeletons) only keep extraordinary special qualities, not special attacks, and those are listed as special attacks for the Giant Octopus. Theres not many creatures that benefit from that clause, really - the only one I've seen is that the Ettin keeps its Superior Two-Weapon Fighting ability. Zevox
Rauul 03-25-07, 11:09 AM	@ MWB - Good point. Meh, oh well, it was just a thought I had when looking over a couple of creatures as potential zombies. @ TM - Yeah, no improved grab or constrict on that. Zombies (and Skeletons) only keep extraordinary special qualities, not special attacks, and those are listed as special attacks for the Giant Octopus. Theres not many creatures that benefit from that clause, really - the only one I've seen is that the Ettin keeps its Superior Two-Weapon Fighting ability. Zevox After going through the SRD, and MM 1 looking for monsters who keep thier Abilitys when made into a Skeleton... Not many.. 4 total i believe i was up to.. Hence the reason you cloud kill a village and animate all the farmers into skeletons and zombie and be minions till you can make the more powerful undead like Ghouls, ghasts, mummys ect...
TheMagister 03-25-07, 06:49 PM	@ TM - Yeah, no improved grab or constrict on that. Zombies (and Skeletons) only keep extraordinary special qualities, not special attacks, and those are listed as special attacks for the Giant Octopus. Theres not many creatures that benefit from that clause, really - the only one I've seen is that the Ettin keeps its Superior Two-Weapon Fighting ability. Zevox Ah, that's where I got hung up, then. Bummer. :( Or rather. Thank goodness. TM
Tellish_of_Ket 03-25-07, 06:57 PM	Can a were-dire wolverine/Barbarian use both rages simultaneously gaining +8/+8 ? ToK
Eluria 03-25-07, 08:57 PM	Hi CoCo community. I'm looking for someone to run a miniquest for Qwogi, a goblin Rogue2/Wizard3 who has spent the majority of his time in the arena fighting with or against Rauul, as luck may have it. Qwogi is interested in becoming an assassin next level, and would like to kill someone to do so, ie "kill someone for no other reason than to join the assassins." That's pretty much the most boring plotline ever, obviously. I don't know if it's usually up to the questlord, or the player, to provide the RP/"fun" part of the quest, but Qwogi has had a pretty brutal life, and I imagine the quirks of the Nimbus preventing deaths would be frustrating to an evil little goblin such as him. There is some background on his char sheet, if any potential questlords (or other interested parties) are interested. Please PM me if you're interested and I'll happily provide any more info or details on request. He just finished his 3FC, if that makes any difference. Thanks guys! -e (I'll be away at work Tues-Wed, in case you're expecting a reply at that time, but free the rest of the week)
Tellish_of_Ket 03-25-07, 09:17 PM	Hi CoCo community. I'm looking for someone to run a miniquest for Qwogi, a goblin Rogue2/Wizard3 who has spent the majority of his time in the arena fighting with or against Rauul, as luck may have it. Qwogi is interested in becoming an assassin next level, and would like to kill someone to do so, ie "kill someone for no other reason than to join the assassins." That's pretty much the most boring plotline ever, obviously. I don't know if it's usually up to the questlord, or the player, to provide the RP/"fun" part of the quest, but Qwogi has had a pretty brutal life, and I imagine the quirks of the Nimbus preventing deaths would be frustrating to an evil little goblin such as him. There is some background on his char sheet, if any potential questlords (or other interested parties) are interested. Please PM me if you're interested and I'll happily provide any more info or details on request. He just finished his 3FC, if that makes any difference. Thanks guys! -e (I'll be away at work Tues-Wed, in case you're expecting a reply at that time, but free the rest of the week) I'll run it for ya. When you edit your title line be sure to include "QL - Tellish_of_Ket" ToK
Eluria 03-25-07, 09:29 PM	I'll run it for ya. When you edit your title line be sure to include "QL - Tellish_of_Ket" Done, and thanks. You are bored this weekend, aren't you... and fast :) I'm looking forward to my first CoCo miniquest. I'm also terrified that Qwogi's hoped-to-be-helpless victim is going to have ToK tactics and whup his scrawny goblin butt.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-25-07, 09:36 PM	Done, and thanks. You are bored this weekend, aren't you... and fast :) I'm looking forward to my first CoCo miniquest. I'm also terrified that Qwogi's hoped-to-be-helpless victim is going to have ToK tactics and whup his scrawny goblin butt. Nope, i just let the dice to the talking. Everything is based on randomness. For me to give monster rolls SpecOps-Like tactics would be very unfair. ToK
NiQil 03-25-07, 09:40 PM	Nope, i just let the dice to the talking. Everything is based on randomness. For me to give monster rolls SpecOps-Like tactics would be very unfair. ToK What...no donkeys on the juice?
Zevox 03-25-07, 09:42 PM	And speaking of MQs, anyone interested in running an out-of-cycle MQ for Arden Tarmik next week? Hes looking to qualify for the Warmind PrC, which means either seeking out the Talaric Texts or tracking a tutor (preferably an infernal one aligned with his cult). Zevox
NiQil 03-25-07, 09:50 PM	Heh....there's an idea...you and Eluria can do opposing mini's....you are seeking a tutor.....Eluria's PC is seeking to kill your tutor....
Tellish_of_Ket 03-25-07, 09:53 PM	What...no donkeys on the juice? Nope...prolly just a dire-ape on crank. ToK
templer10 03-25-07, 09:57 PM	Heh....there's an idea...you and Eluria can do opposing mini's....you are seeking a tutor.....Eluria's PC is seeking to kill your tutor.... Why be mean- do coopartive MQ's if that's even possible- seek out a tutor and when you are done studing have eluria's PC kill it.
Zevox 03-25-07, 10:02 PM	Heh....there's an idea...you and Eluria can do opposing mini's....you are seeking a tutor.....Eluria's PC is seeking to kill your tutor.... Erm, that would kind of counterproductive, don't you think? Then only one of us could succeed, unless we want to enter into the realm of alternate timelines (and I don't). Zevox
TaggIIV 03-25-07, 10:07 PM	The iconic ranger that isn't really a ranger (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11878822&postcount=1096) Going to take a stab at the straight fighter... I think it could work because of versitility - having an equal focus on melee and ranged. Maneuverability would no doubt be a help, considering adding a warhorse - I suppose it would be better to win and still get more xp than a loss. If someone could look over for violations and/or suggestions would be appreciated
TheMagister 03-25-07, 10:33 PM	The iconic ranger that isn't really a ranger (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11878822&postcount=1096) Going to take a stab at the straight fighter... I think it could work because of versitility - having an equal focus on melee and ranged. Maneuverability would no doubt be a help, considering adding a warhorse - I suppose it would be better to win and still get more xp than a loss. If someone could look over for violations and/or suggestions would be appreciated ((both: +6/+6 melee, 1d6+2/1d6+2, 18-20/x2 / 19-20/x2, piercing))Off-hand Ss should only deal 1d6+1 (1/2 str for off-hand). Also, I'd clean up that line. Maybe this: TWF: rapier +6 melee and shortsword +6 melee, 1d6+2 (18-20/x2) and 1d6+1 (19-20/x2), piercing It's a matter of preference. ((rapid shot: +6/+6 ranged, 1d8+2/1d8+2, 20/x3 / 20/x3, 110' range, piercing)) You've got an extra 20/x3 in there. Potion of Protection from Arrows (300gp, 0.1wt)In my opinion, I'd ditch this and spend the money on little incremental increases to AC. SoF+2 + Tattoo of Force Screen = +6 AC for 150 gp and they miss you anyways. darkwood tower shield (630gp, 22.5 wt)I can almost guarantee that you see limited use for this. It'll almost always be a better option to return fire with your bow (since you're pretty good with it) or TWF (since you're pretty good at that, too). I'd cash the money in and spend it on an armor upgrade (meaning +1 enh). Just my thoughts. :)
Zevox 03-25-07, 10:36 PM	The iconic ranger that isn't really a ranger (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11878822&postcount=1096) Going to take a stab at the straight fighter... I think it could work because of versitility - having an equal focus on melee and ranged. Maneuverability would no doubt be a help, considering adding a warhorse - I suppose it would be better to win and still get more xp than a loss. If someone could look over for violations and/or suggestions would be appreciated His off-hand attack when two-weapon fighting should get only half his strength bonus to damage (so just 1d6+1 instead of 1d6+2). Might want to make that Chain Shirt masterwork. Unless you intend on selling it for a Mithril one later (which would probably be an even better idea, actually), you'll need it as masterwork to enchant it. You should probably carry more than just 20 arrows too. You'll go through those in one fight easily. You can leave some extra at home to grab between fights, but I'd recommend not going into a fight with less than 40. Zevox
TheMagister 03-25-07, 10:40 PM	Might want to make that Chain Shirt masterwork. Unless you intend on selling it for a Mithril one later (which would probably be an even better idea, actually), you'll need it as masterwork to enchant it. You should probably carry more than just 20 arrows too. You'll go through those in one fight easily. You can leave some extra at home to grab between fights, but I'd recommend not going into a fight with less than 40. Zevox Bolded for truth. Carried: +1 Mighty (Str +2) Psychokinetic Deepcrystal Composite Longbow [3 lbs][9300gp] [Had the illegal "lucky" psionic enchantment for fights 13-15...had no effect] Quiver with 40 arrows [-20 fight 1][06 lbs][2 gp] Quiver with 40 arrows [06 lbs][2 gp] Quiver [0 lbs][1 gp] -- with 13 +1 seeking arrows [1.95 lbs][2171 gp][link] -- with 10 adamantine-tipped arrows [1.5 lbs][610 gp][link] -- with 20 silver arrows [3 lbs][41gp] -- with 18 cold iron arrows [2.7 lbs][1.8 gp] Stowed on Hope (Pegasus): Quiver with 40 arrows [06 lbs][2 gp] Quiver with 40 arrows [06 lbs][2 gp] Quiver with 40 arrows [06 lbs][2 gp] Quiver with 40 arrows [06 lbs][2 gp] Quiver with 40 cold iron arrows [06 lbs][4 gp] Quiver with 40 silver arrows [06 lbs][82 gp] And Hood has probably used only 25 or so arrows in his largest arrow expenditure ever. But it got me thinkin'. ALSO that "sunder the quiver" stunt the Harvester beaned me with convinced me to get lotsa quivers so that I can mix up where the different arrow-types will be. {still smarting over that one} TM
hogarth 03-25-07, 10:43 PM	Just another vote for "buy lots of arrows" and "tower shields are more annoying than useful in the CoCo". :D
TaggIIV 03-25-07, 10:50 PM	Thanks for the input. I dropped the tower shield now (which freed up a lot of money and encumbrance), and the force screen tattoo is a good idea - I hadn't thought of looking at psionics before. And is there a use for silver or cold iron arrows at low levels? As far as I know they just surpass DR of lycanthropes and fey? And is it possible to buy a horse but to decide whether or not to bring it once the opponent is rolled, or if its on your sheet do you have to take it? Especially without devoting mounted feats I wouldn't want to use it but in some cases the maneuverability would be needed.
NiQil 03-25-07, 11:00 PM	Thanks for the input. I dropped the tower shield now (which freed up a lot of money and encumbrance), and the force screen tattoo is a good idea - I hadn't thought of looking at psionics before. And is there a use for silver or cold iron arrows at low levels? As far as I know they just surpass DR of lycanthropes and fey? And is it possible to buy a horse but to decide whether or not to bring it once the opponent is rolled, or if its on your sheet do you have to take it? Especially without devoting mounted feats I wouldn't want to use it but in some cases the maneuverability would be needed. If you buy a horse, give me about a month to get my ECL 3's to ECL 4 before you activate this PC....if I have to face one more friggin light warhorse....
hogarth 03-25-07, 11:01 PM	And is there a use for silver or cold iron arrows at low levels? As far as I know they just surpass DR of lycanthropes and fey? Cold iron arrows cost very little, so you might as well use them instead of normal ones.
Zevox 03-25-07, 11:09 PM	And is there a use for silver or cold iron arrows at low levels? As far as I know they just surpass DR of lycanthropes and fey? Basically as you say. They just bypass DR on those, plus a few other creature types (Demons and Devils most notably), and you won't see any such foes at level 3 unless you get a very unluck monster fight. Potentially you could see them at level 4, but theres none there now. Basically I wouldn't worry about it until level 5 or 6 myself. And is it possible to buy a horse but to decide whether or not to bring it once the opponent is rolled, or if its on your sheet do you have to take it? Especially without devoting mounted feats I wouldn't want to use it but in some cases the maneuverability would be needed. You can, but you still have to prebuff it to take it to start with, which means it still counts against your rewards even if you don't take it. Generally speaking the only reason most leave such an ally behind is if its likely to die and its their first or second fight of the cycle. Zevox
Sjiggie 03-26-07, 01:58 PM	And speaking of MQs, anyone interested in running an out-of-cycle MQ for Arden Tarmik next week? Hes looking to qualify for the Warmind PrC, which means either seeking out the Talaric Texts or tracking a tutor (preferably an infernal one aligned with his cult). Zevox I can take this MQ if you want.
Maraxus 03-26-07, 03:12 PM	Hm, I just can't decide, what character would come next... I'm playing with some ideas and in the meantime, there is the IMT so no problem. However... If you are feeling light by absorbing ambient light onto your skin, you have your normal visual abilities (except for darkvision), even if your eyes are closed or you are blinded. ... You can also use this power to see sound if you are deafened, or hear light if you are blinded, thus removing all penalties associated with either condition Grimlocks are blind, but their exceptional senses of smell and hearing allow them to notice foes nearby. ... Grimlocks can sense all foes within 40 feet as a sighted creature would. Beyond that range, they treat all targets as having total concealment. Synesthete speaks of "your" visual abilities. Does this mean that a racially blind character could not become sighted (beyond the 40 ft blindsense), when using this power?
TelinArtho 03-26-07, 03:17 PM	Hm, I just can't decide, what character would come next... I'm playing with some ideas and in the meantime, there is the IMT so no problem. However... Synesthete speaks of "your" visual abilities. Does this mean that a racially blind character could not become sighted (beyond the 40 ft blindsense), when using this power? That's how I read it when I had my grimlock some time ago. Do note that you can use it to feel sound and that effectively makes it impossible to remove the blindsight ability. The 40ft radius is nice in some of the maps (Cavern, Sewer and Temple are all more or less restricted), but it will be a big problem in the plains and forest maps. The arena and city maps might be okay - but might have issues as well. Team the grimlock up with an ally that can see though - and he's a devastating force...
TelinArtho 03-26-07, 05:42 PM	Can a spiritual weapon perform special attacks (ie disarm, sunder, trip)?
SauroGrenom 03-26-07, 05:47 PM	Can a spiritual weapon perform special attacks (ie disarm, sunder, trip)? I don't think so. Did we ever decide how a spiritual weapon figures things like cover (melee or ranged rules)?
Zevox 03-26-07, 05:48 PM	Can a spiritual weapon perform special attacks (ie disarm, sunder, trip)? Given nothing in the spell indicates it can, I'd assume no. Particularly given you'd have plenty of troubles with the question of what modifiers it gets. Would there be size modifiers if the caster isn't medium? Would it get modifiers for being light, two-handed, non-melee, or a particular type of weapon (e.g. +2 disarm for a flail) depending on what weapon in particular it is? Too much more information would be needed for the spell to function in that way, so I'd say its almost surely not intended to do those things. Zevox
TelinArtho 03-26-07, 05:58 PM	Yeah - that's kind of what I figured, but it couldn't hurt to ask... Planning for this match with Mer-man is proving to be very interesting...
Tellish_of_Ket 03-26-07, 05:59 PM	Repeat Question: Can a were-dire wolverine/Barbarian rage twice to get +8/+8? ToK
TelinArtho 03-26-07, 06:03 PM	I haven't seen anything that indicates one or the other stacks or doesn't stack, so I can't answer that effectively. From what I can see, Cat thinks it would (see Mer-man's stacked Rage and Blood Frenzy - though they are two different named abilities). My personal opinion on the matter is that no - you can't.
hogarth 03-26-07, 06:08 PM	My opinion would be that they do stack. Obviously they're two different abilities (one is voluntary and one is not, one gives a bonus to Will saves and one doesn't) and the bonus is untyped. Just my two cents. Note that a wolverine's rage isn't a barrel of monkeys (you bite and claw madly until dead -- I assume that means no retreating, using ranged attacks, etc.)
TelinArtho 03-26-07, 06:14 PM	My opinion would be that they do stack. Obviously they're two different abilities (one is voluntary and one is not, one gives a bonus to Will saves and one doesn't) and the bonus is untyped. Just my two cents. Note that a wolverine's rage isn't a barrel of monkeys (you bite and claw madly until dead -- I assume that means no retreating, using ranged attacks, etc.) Well, the wolverine's rage is also only an option in animal form - so no ranged attacks regardless... Like I said though, I don't see anything that allows or disallows it specifically, so I don't have further input on that.
TelinArtho 03-26-07, 06:29 PM	I know everyone has been waiting impatiently for a picture of my new son. Here's a couple - unfortunately from camera phones so the quality is pretty bad... http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a180/TelinArtho/mykids.jpg http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a180/TelinArtho/0316072200.jpg
Tellish_of_Ket 03-26-07, 06:36 PM	Cute kids man. You must be a proud father. I'm kinda jealous actually. Wife found out earlier this week that she might not be able to have kids...kind of a bummer for us. Next Question: Can an opponent that is overrun with the trample ability and has taken a hoof attack, also take a sword-swipe from the rider using ride-by attack? ToK
TelinArtho 03-26-07, 06:52 PM	Trample is a feat for a rider that allows an overrun and attack by the mount. Since the trample takes an action by the rider - I would say no - the rider could not also attack with a sword using ride-by-attack. Thanks about the words on my kids and many apologies for the news about future possibilities for yourself. I love having my kids and for anyone who would also want them - I encourage you to find a way (adoption, etc).
TheMagister 03-26-07, 06:55 PM	On one of the dumber rulings (IMO) that has come down the pipe recently, it has been ruled that having your mount Trample uses up the rider's standard action for the round. TM
SauroGrenom 03-26-07, 08:42 PM	Telin, Cute kids. We hope to have our own some day. Still a few years off from that though. I just hope that I end up being as good a parent as my parents were. Tellish, Keep hope. There's a long way between "might not" and "can not". A good doctor can tell you about lots of options.
SauroGrenom 03-26-07, 08:45 PM	Photo Man, You're a new face. Welcome. I see you're looking in on the Stygian Strikers MQ. I hope you like what you see. Cheers, Sauro
McJarvis 03-26-07, 08:48 PM	My birthday is this week. One more year 'till I'm a real person! :D Six more before I'm a real man-man :( ;)
Zevox 03-26-07, 10:46 PM	@ Telin - Cute kids :) . Glad to hear everything's going good in that regard. My birthday is this week. One more year 'till I'm a real person! :D Six more before I'm a real man-man :( ;) Okay, I must not be familiar with the stigmas attached to whatever ages you're referring to. Whats that mean? Zevox
McJarvis 03-27-07, 07:51 AM	Okay, I must not be familiar with the stigmas attached to whatever ages you're referring to. Whats that mean? Zevox When you turn 25 the last of the "youth related penalties" associated with public culture dissapear(auto insurance) & in some cultures(my family included) men are not considered to be ready for their *true* life-work until they are 30. (thus my comment about not being a man-man.... ;) ) I'll be 24 on Thursday, though I must decline the credit since it is a part of my culture not to accept presents for mere annual events-purposes.[[thus why I announced in the tavarn instead of telling pitlords]] So instead just give me some congrat's :)
TelinArtho 03-27-07, 01:04 PM	A first for me in so many ways: Berri the Friendly I've been tossing around so many possibilities for him. Hopefully he'll do well enough to keep me interested...
hogarth 03-27-07, 01:15 PM	A first for me in so many ways: Berri the Friendly I've been tossing around so many possibilities for him. Hopefully he'll do well enough to keep me interested... What's the bloodline for? Boosting your Discount free activity and protecting against Assassinate?
TelinArtho 03-27-07, 01:23 PM	Well it'll be a while before it fully comes to bear - but it has many uses. First of all - at 8th level it gives him a 4th resistance. Yes, Resistance 5 is not too useful - but it can be helpful at times (elemental weapons to be sure). Secondly, the stat boost to Str will help round him out (+1 at 4th, another at 6th from the bloodline). The discount free activity is also a nice boon - but more for the ability to use it on mercs later on. By around ECL8 or 9 - the discount for mercs will be very substantial... And of course, the bonus alertness feat is just nice to have. In his original design - a human bard - he had the intermediate copper dragon bloodline - for the boost in Perform. Anyway - I'm not completely sold on it - but I wanted to give them a try. I was actually trying to work in a major bloodline but it just seems to be so much sacrifice with so little gain by ECL6. Sure if I started him at ECL10 - it might be worth it - but I'm not trying to start already frozen characters these days... (and if I was, I would introduce my Drider and Hound Archon that I've been working on)
TelinArtho 03-27-07, 02:19 PM	Any comments for my latest low level Merc? Hunter Theor Human Rogue 1
templer10 03-27-07, 02:23 PM	qustion- do i need to pay credits if i craft my own custom wonderous items (gloves of dex +1) and some such?
TelinArtho 03-27-07, 02:30 PM	qustion- do i need to pay credits if i craft my own custom wonderous items (gloves of dex +1) and some such? If it isn't specifically listed in the SRD - yes. So Gloves of Dexterity +2 - no credits Gloves of Dexterity +1 - 5 credits
hogarth 03-27-07, 03:08 PM	Any comments for my latest low level Merc? I wouldn't hire him, but de gustibus non est disputandum. ;)
TelinArtho 03-27-07, 03:15 PM	I wouldn't hire him, but de gustibus non est disputandum. ;) Well - you've got me - my latin is not nearly as good as it used to be... EDIT - but "my taste is up for dispute" - something like that?
TelinArtho 03-27-07, 03:33 PM	Okay - apparently there's some disagreement between me and MacBrea about the Soulknife. His character has a prebuff line to include a mindblade in each hand. Can he do this as a level 3 soulknife? Here's the reason why I am confused: Shape Mind Blade (Su): At 5th level, a soulknife gains the ability to change the form of his mind blade. As a fullround action, he can change his mind blade to replicate a longsword (damage 1d8 for a Medium weapon wielded as a one-handed weapon) or a bastard sword (damage 1d10 for a Medium weapon, but he must wield it as a two-handed weapon unless he knows the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword) feat). If a soulknife shapes his mind blade into the form of a bastard sword and wields it two-handed, he adds 1-1/2 times his Strength bonus to his damage rolls, just like when using any other two-handed weapon. Alternatively, a soulknife can split his mind blade into two identical short swords, suitable for fighting with a weapon in each hand. (The normal penalties for fighting with two weapons apply.) However, both mind blades have an enhancement bonus 1 lower than the soulknife would otherwise create with a single mind blade. So for any sane soulknife, why would he spend a full round action to split an existing Mindblade with 1 lower enhancement bonus when he could do as MacBrea has suggested and manifested two mindblades in 2 move actions? I am not taking this to the courtroom since I'm not sure it is really an issue. I would like to hear some more voices on the matter though. [EDIT] Well - now that I see the discussion has started in the FotW thread - I guess I'll just see how that turns out...
SauroGrenom 03-27-07, 04:07 PM	Okay - apparently there's some disagreement between me and MacBrea about the Soulknife. His character has a prebuff line to include a mindblade in each hand. Can he do this as a level 3 soulknife? Here's the reason why I am confused: So for any sane soulknife, why would he spend a full round action to split an existing Mindblade with 1 lower enhancement bonus when he could do as MacBrea has suggested and manifested two mindblades in 2 move actions? I am not taking this to the courtroom since I'm not sure it is really an issue. I would like to hear some more voices on the matter though. [EDIT] Well - now that I see the discussion has started in the FotW thread - I guess I'll just see how that turns out... The mind blade description is all singular. You don't get more mind blades if you have lots of appendages. I think you can only have one mind blade at a time unless you use the "shape mindblade" ability to have two at the same time. You only get the option to split a blade in two after the 5th level. So the 3rd level soulknife doesn't get this option at all.
Macbrea 03-27-07, 04:40 PM	It was asked awhile ago if your allowed to hand of flame multiple hands. As it is a psi-like ability. It was ruled that you could target both your hands seperately and activate hand of flame one at a time on them. Mindblade is a supernatural ability that produces a mindblade that stays in your hand until such a time that you reliquish it or throw it. After which it dissapates. The 5th level ability allows you to take a shortsword that is formed from making a single mindblade and shape it into two seperate mindblades. Nothing in the description states you cannot just summons one per limb given enough time. The Thri-kreen or Xill soulkniife should be able to summon a mindblade per limb it would just take time. It should also be possible to summon multiple lashing of flame from pyro.
TelinArtho 03-27-07, 04:41 PM	For bloodlines - does a bloodline level count for determining ability score increases and feats? The wording the rules thread leaves me unsure. In other words, if I have a character who has an intermediate bloodline, like the character I posted earlier today: ECL4 Bard 3, LA+1 - feat ECL5 Bard 4, LA+1 - ability increase ECL6 Bard 5, LA+1 - nothing ECL7 Bard 5, Bloodline 1, LA+1 - feat? ECL8 Bard 6, Bloodline 1, LA+1 - nothing? ECL9 Bard 7, Bloodline 1, LA+1 - ability increase? ECL10 Bard 8, Bloodline 1, LA+1 - feat?
hogarth 03-27-07, 04:47 PM	Nothing in the description states you cannot just summons one per limb given enough time. I agree with you; it doesn't explicitly say you can't. But it is highly implied by the level 5 ability, IMO.
TelinArtho 03-27-07, 04:48 PM	It was asked awhile ago if your allowed to hand of flame multiple hands. As it is a psi-like ability. It was ruled that you could target both your hands seperately and activate hand of flame one at a time on them. Mindblade is a supernatural ability that produces a mindblade that stays in your hand until such a time that you reliquish it or throw it. After which it dissapates. The 5th level ability allows you to take a shortsword that is formed from making a single mindblade and shape it into two seperate mindblades. Nothing in the description states you cannot just summons one per limb given enough time. The Thri-kreen or Xill soulkniife should be able to summon a mindblade per limb it would just take time. It should also be possible to summon multiple lashing of flame from pyro. First of all hand afire and mindblades are not equivalent - not even close. Second of all - can you point to the discussion and result of the hand afire situation? I remember it - but it isn't in the court rulings. I will look it up on my own though - I'm just hoping someone has a pointer to it.
hogarth 03-27-07, 04:50 PM	For bloodlines - does a bloodline level count for determining ability score increases and feats? The wording the rules thread leaves me unsure. A bloodline level specifically does not increase a gladiator's character level. The only things it mentions are increasing your maximum skill ranks and "any character ability based on class levels". Ability score increases and feats don't fall in either of those categories.
MindWandererB 03-27-07, 04:54 PM	It was asked awhile ago if your allowed to hand of flame multiple hands. As it is a psi-like ability. It was ruled that you could target both your hands seperately and activate hand of flame one at a time on them. Mindblade is a supernatural ability that produces a mindblade that stays in your hand until such a time that you reliquish it or throw it. After which it dissapates. The 5th level ability allows you to take a shortsword that is formed from making a single mindblade and shape it into two seperate mindblades. Nothing in the description states you cannot just summons one per limb given enough time. The Thri-kreen or Xill soulkniife should be able to summon a mindblade per limb it would just take time. It should also be possible to summon multiple lashing of flame from pyro.You're right that it doesn't explicitly say. However, the fact that you can split your mind blade at a higher level makes the intention clear, IMO--why on earth would you spend a full round action to split one blade into two weaker ones, when you can use a move action to just create another one at full strength?For bloodlines - does a bloodline level count for determining ability score increases and feats? The wording the rules thread leaves me unsure. In other words, if I have a character who has an intermediate bloodline, like the character I posted earlier today: ECL4 Bard 3, LA+1 - feat ECL5 Bard 4, LA+1 - ability increase ECL6 Bard 5, LA+1 - nothing ECL7 Bard 5, Bloodline 1, LA+1 - feat? ECL8 Bard 6, Bloodline 1, LA+1 - nothing? ECL9 Bard 7, Bloodline 1, LA+1 - ability increase? ECL10 Bard 8, Bloodline 1, LA+1 - feat?Here's the SRD quote:A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features. It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks. Levels of bloodline never result in XP penalties for multiclass characters. Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.Since ability increases and feats are by default dependent on hit dice, the rules would have to explicitly state otherwise if bloodlines were an exception to this. They don't. So you'd get your standard feat at ECL 8, and your ability increase at ECL 10.
TelinArtho 03-27-07, 04:54 PM	Ah - thanks! That helps me plan out Berri a little better.
McJarvis 03-27-07, 06:02 PM	The mind blade description is all singular. You could, you know, *try* reading the description before sticking your foot in your mouth. ;) Soulknives who are smaller or larger than Medium create mind blades identical to short swords appropriate for their size, with a corresponding change to the blade’s damage. This ability is essentially as poorly worded as the Warshaper in Complete Warrior. The fact that the class later on gives you another ability doesn't, by RAW, restrict earlier class features(even if it DOES seem redundant). While I think the intention of the writers was not what resulted, we should use earlier standards you have described as what CoCo should strive for: 1) Read what the rules actually say. 2) Reflect on whether what they say makes the subject in question obviously too powerful-> ie, we houserule it for balance purposes. Keeping in mind(hehe-> a pun!) that the Soulknife is arguably the worst base class in core.... edit-> All that said, my only real interest here is having a consistent way through which we make rulings like this. How this one is decided directly reflects how throwing multiple mindblades should be run.
TelinArtho 03-27-07, 06:10 PM	Well - the rules aren't written very clearly. @McJarvis - the case of the pluralization that you pointed out is merely because the subject (Soulknives) is plural. I do believe the intent was to have the soulknife only able to have one mindblade at a given time up to 5th level and from that point have a maximum of 2 in existence at one time. Multi-arm critters can benefit by just wielding extra - non-mindblade weapons. If this is being put up for a vote - that's where my vote lies.
McJarvis 03-27-07, 06:17 PM	Well - the rules aren't written very clearly. @McJarvis - the case of the pluralization that you pointed out is merely because the subject (Soulknives) is plural. If that's the case, it would still say: "Soulknives who are smaller or larger than Medium create mind blades a mind blade identical to a short sword short swords appropriate for their size, with a corresponding change to the blade’s damage." Or size(s) should have been plural :) Regardless, Sauro should have read it before saying the description never states anything in the plural ;) [[this just adds to the case I'm building that he is, in fact, fallible every once and a while...hehe]]
McJarvis 03-27-07, 06:24 PM	RE: Soul knives I should probably also point out the the class nerfs itself later on if it's read too literally.... He can make only one attempt to materialize the mind blade per round, however. Multiple Throw (Ex): At 17th level and higher, a soulknife can throw a number of mind blades per round equal to the number of melee attacks he could make. So you can only materialize 1 blade per round, but you can throw as many as you can make attacks. :rolleyes:
Tellish_of_Ket 03-27-07, 06:24 PM	Well - the rules aren't written very clearly. @McJarvis - the case of the pluralization that you pointed out is merely because the subject (Soulknives) is plural. I do believe the intent was to have the soulknife only able to have one mindblade at a given time up to 5th level and from that point have a maximum of 2 in existence at one time. Multi-arm critters can benefit by just wielding extra - non-mindblade weapons. If this is being put up for a vote - that's where my vote lies. Vote 2
SauroGrenom 03-27-07, 07:15 PM	If that's the case, it would still say: "Soulknives who are smaller or larger than Medium create mind blades a mind blade identical to a short sword short swords appropriate for their size, with a corresponding change to the blade’s damage." Or size(s) should have been plural :) Regardless, Sauro should have read it before saying the description never states anything in the plural ;) [[this just adds to the case I'm building that he is, in fact, fallible every once and a while...hehe]]What you wrote above suggests that it takes multiple soulknives of smaller or larger than medium size to create a single mindblade. (plural subject with singular object) I think Telin is correct, and that sentence is pluralized because the subject of the sentence is plural. I don't think it should be mis-construed to suggest that a soulknife can manifest multiple knives for every limb they have available. Obviously I vote with Telin and Tellish.
templer10 03-27-07, 07:39 PM	who can approve stuff in the trianing hall? - just cat? since my post has been up there for couple of days and i would like it approved before the deadline.
TelinArtho 03-27-07, 07:42 PM	Only Cat can approve it. He'll probably come in tomorrow some time to do the pairings - so I wouldn't expect it until then. What I would do is go ahead and update your character as if the approval went through with a note of the pending approval. If Cat approves it before pairings (which he should) - then you can just point to it in your tactics. If he doesn't approve it at all - just make sure to have the original version referenced in your post (so that you can point to it until it is approved).
McJarvis 03-27-07, 08:55 PM	What you wrote above suggests that it takes multiple soulknives of smaller or larger than medium size to create a single mindblade. (plural subject with singular object) I would have to disagree on that one(not that it matters). "All sorts of people can make a hamburger at home without going to McDonalds." Doesn't imply that multiple people are making a singular Hamburger-> but rather that people can each make a hamburger. :)
NiQil 03-27-07, 09:00 PM	Since I am currently also running a soulknife, let me chime in on that. I am also of the opinion that you cannot have more than one mind blade at a time until you reach the level 5 ability to split the blades. @ McJarvis: The 17th level ability that gives you the ability to throw multiple blades overrides the previous restriction on only being able to make one attempt to manifest a blade in a round. Otherwise, as you say, the ability would be useless. For a 17th level ability, I wouldn't call it overpowered, would you?
McJarvis 03-27-07, 09:04 PM	@ McJarvis: The 17th level ability that gives you the ability to throw multiple blades overrides the previous restriction on only being able to make one attempt to manifest a blade in a round. Otherwise, as you say, the ability would be useless. For a 17th level ability, I wouldn't call it overpowered, would you? As stated-> the class is worded poorly. Personally, I'd allow two thrown mind blades per round(after level 5, of course) until 16th level, then let the 17th level remove the cap. My point was more or less that a strict reading of RAW won't really work on the Soulknife no matter what. Thus saying that the 17th level ability restricts the rest of the class is dumb. (and waiting until 17th level to throw more than one blade per turn is kind of dumb too)
NiQil 03-27-07, 09:18 PM	As stated-> the class is worded poorly. Personally, I'd allow two thrown mind blades per round(after level 5, of course) until 16th level, then let the 17th level remove the cap. My point was more or less that a strict reading of RAW won't really work on the Soulknife no matter what. Thus saying that the 17th level ability restricts the rest of the class is dumb. (and waiting until 17th level to throw more than one blade per turn is kind of dumb too) Hence the reason it is generally considered one of the weakest classes around....
SauroGrenom 03-27-07, 09:38 PM	Hence the reason it is generally considered one of the weakest classes around.... Ranks right up their with the bard, and to a lesser extent the monk in mid levels.
NiQil 03-27-07, 09:48 PM	Ranks right up their with the bard, and to a lesser extent the monk in mid levels. Bards are only weak if you use them outside of their natural element. If you use them as a support fighter/caster and the social "face" of the group, bards can be devastating. In a long dead TT game, we had a bard who focused so heavily on his social skills and his bardic music, he was able to regularly fascinate things he shouldn't have been able to....like dragons... And monks are the same way...they are skirmishers and battlefield control combatants...if you stand toe to toe as a monk, you are most likely going to get your innards served to you on a stick. Soulknives, however, seemed to be designed to be a front-line fighter, but can't stand up to that role with 3/4 attack progression. They could be a support fighter, but don't have any abilities that affect anything other than themselves....in other words, while fun, playing a soulknife will not increase your survivability in a tt game LOL
templer10 03-27-07, 10:10 PM	anyone want to pick apart this new char of mine - elrick flamebrother (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11908436&postcount=1098)
Vathelokai 03-27-07, 10:20 PM	anyone want to pick apart this new char of mine - elrick flamebrother (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11908436&postcount=1098) Your hp seems to be off (was it 18 origionaly?), but other than that it looks well put together. But then I didn't count skill ranks or anything. A few broken color tags. I'd grab subdual substitution instead of sonic; it's pretty rare to run into something that is only effected by sonic. However, half of your opponents will have some way of getting energy resistance. Only the undead and constructs have immunity to subdual. I'd get more faerie fire. Handy stuff. EDIT: and you should mention that your animal companion is a dire bat. I can tell from the stats, but it dosn't say anywhere. Probably a good idea to mention it's a class ally as well.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-27-07, 10:32 PM	Ranks right up their with the bard, and to a lesser extent the monk in mid levels. Hey, my LG 4ftr/11mnk totally rocks. Nearly unkillable. No, i can't do much in return to my enemies, but hey. I soak up everything the enemy can throw at me, and hold on long enough for my buddies to kill them, lol. On another note...wasn't there an errata for Energy Substituiton that excluded sonic? Can't find it right now, so i could be wrong. ToK
SauroGrenom 03-27-07, 10:33 PM	I agree that bards are out of their element in CoCo. And that in a different setting, they could really shine. Monks however, there's not much they can do better than anyone else. If you need someone to flank and scout, then rogues do a great job with their sneak attack, trap evasion skills, general scouting skills, high dex (for tumble), along with a few surprises with UMD. They fill that roll better than a monk can. If you need someone with SR, then you get it other ways better than the monk gets his (Example - drow race or manifest power resistance as a psion). If you need a grappler, you can do better with armor spikes on a raging barbarian. If you need disarming, you can do better with a fighter and a spiked chain. Monks have dumpy ranged attacks, mediocre HP, mediocre AC, mediocre BAB, mediocre skill points, mediocre weapon choices and mediocre class abilities that don't quite compensate for the lack of armor or weapons or spell casting. The problem with the monk class is they are 2nd class citizens in every area. There's nothing they do better than everyone else at all levels, and there's few if anything they can do as well as any other optimized character. There's no "trick" that monks can use consistently and expect to work every time if it can be used. That's the same problem soulknives have.
Zevox 03-27-07, 10:34 PM	Hey, my LG 4ftr/11mnk totally rocks. Nearly unkillable. No, i can't do much in return to my enemies, but hey. I soak up everything the enemy can throw at me, and hold on long enough for my buddies to kill them, lol. On another note...wasn't there an errata for Energy Substituiton that excluded sonic? Can't find it right now, so i could be wrong. ToK No, but the 3.5 version does that. But thats in a non-core source, so its unfortunately not used here. Zevox
templer10 03-27-07, 10:34 PM	I'd grab subdual substitution instead of sonic; it's pretty rare to run into something that is only effected by sonic. However, half of your opponents will have some way of getting energy resistance. Only the undead and constructs have immunity to subdual. . i brought in energy substitution sonic bceuase it's not very likely an opponent will have ressist energy sonic AND ressist energy fire especially at these levels. and considering i have ord of extend i can extend either of the versions on the spot when i see the other guy sheet (agter all- scrolls and such need to say which kind of ressist/protection from they are).
Zevox 03-27-07, 10:35 PM	anyone want to pick apart this new char of mine - elrick flamebrother (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11908436&postcount=1098) Energy Substitution requires 5 ranks in Know (Arcana). Can't have it at that level as a Druid. Zevox
templer10 03-27-07, 10:40 PM	Energy Substitution requires 5 ranks in Know (Arcana). Can't have it at that level as a Druid. Zevox damn You are right- hmm thinking...
templer10 03-27-07, 10:47 PM	ok- question- an animal companion can share spells- can it share flame blade (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/flameBlade.htm) if so - cute option.
SauroGrenom 03-27-07, 10:52 PM	I'm not totally clear on the rules with regard to Campaign encounter EL. From reading the rules thread, I get the idea that an ECL7 campaign should have ECL7 encounters. But from my experience in Cat's campaign, it looks like he thinks that a group of 5 ECL 9 characters are totally fine for a CR14 encounter. So which is it? Do I match EL with campaign ECL and party average ECL, or do I do something more like a CoCo quest where every participant is matched with an opponent of EL equal to participant's ECL?
Tellish_of_Ket 03-27-07, 10:55 PM	Central European Time (http://wwp.centraleuropeantime.eu/) For those that need to double check it, so they don't have to wait until the last second to edit their characters...or unless they WANT to wait until the last second to try and strategically fool their opponents in a small bracket. Which believe me, used to happen a lot in the old days. Some gladiators would wait until the very last minute to add some equipment to their sheets to try and gain an advantage over unprepared opponents. Harder to do now though with like 10-15 ppl in each bracket. lol ToK
Tellish_of_Ket 03-27-07, 11:11 PM	I'm not totally clear on the rules with regard to Campaign encounter EL. From reading the rules thread, I get the idea that an ECL7 campaign should have ECL7 encounters. But from my experience in Cat's campaign, it looks like he thinks that a group of 5 ECL 9 characters are totally fine for a CR14 encounter. So which is it? Do I match EL with campaign ECL and party average ECL, or do I do something more like a CoCo quest where every participant is matched with an opponent of EL equal to participant's ECL? Well, i don't know CoCo campaing, but i can spell out the formula for module writing. I've written a couple of officially published modules for Living Greyhawk. It really depends on the APL (Average Party Level). A scenario has about 3.75 EL's per APL of the scenario. Each encounter averages APL+3, with a finale encounter of APL+4. Ex. If you have a scenario made for an APL 6 party, on average, each encounter will be an EL 9 with one EL 10 boss-fight. Determining the APL is pretty simple. Add up all the levels of the party members and the CR's of the mounts (non-class allies), then divide by the number of players. If you have a 6-person party, you add one to the final total. 6 Dudes and their faithful steeds set out to defeat the evil undead army. Their levels are 3+7+4+3+6+5, and three have CR 1 mounts adding only 2 CR's to the final count totalling 30 Levels. Divide by 6 = 5...and since you have 6 members, you add 1...making it 6. So the APL is 6. It would be safe to assume that they each encounter they will face will be EL 9's, with a possible final fight of EL 10. This will be truely a taxing fight on the two lowbies, but is hopefully balanced out by the sheer number of allies (6 pc's and 3 mounts). ToK
hogarth 03-27-07, 11:20 PM	I'm not totally clear on the rules with regard to Campaign encounter EL. From reading the rules thread, I get the idea that an ECL7 campaign should have ECL7 encounters. But from my experience in Cat's campaign, it looks like he thinks that a group of 5 ECL 9 characters are totally fine for a CR14 encounter. So which is it? Do I match EL with campaign ECL and party average ECL, or do I do something more like a CoCo quest where every participant is matched with an opponent of EL equal to participant's ECL? CoCo rules for earning experience are clear, however -- if four ECL 7 characters face an EL 7 encounter, they'll be getting 1/4 as much experience as they would in an arena fight. Sounds kind of puny to me. If you intend them to get arena-type experience every week, you'll need to throw EL 11 encounters against them.
Rauul 03-28-07, 12:54 AM	Ok got a Question... Corrupter needs to replace his dogs.. and well the mule also if his new cohort casts desecration, they get +2 hit points/HD I imagine that creating a Permanent Alter costs 500 gp (same as Alchemist lab) Are there rules in CoCo for this.. or what?
hogarth 03-28-07, 01:07 AM	Ok got a Question... Corrupter needs to replace his dogs.. and well the mule also if his new cohort casts desecration, they get +2 hit points/HD I imagine that creating a Permanent Alter costs 500 gp (same as Alchemist lab) Are there rules in CoCo for this.. or what? As far as I know, you can find a "permanent fixture" of your deity for free.
Rauul 03-28-07, 01:13 AM	Ponders a Hellcat Skeleton.. hmmm Special Qualities A skeleton loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks. So looses very little... becomes a CR 4 undead monster without track and scent.. Shame a ECL 7 player can fight one, animate it and not be able to use it till they are level 10+ I believe...
Rauul 03-28-07, 01:14 AM	As far as I know, you can find a "permanent fixture" of your deity for free. Cool since i won't have him in the rounds this week... i can start updating the undead.. (and subtracting the gold to outfit a cohort)
Zevox 03-28-07, 02:07 AM	Ponders a Hellcat Skeleton.. hmmm Special Qualities A skeleton loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks. So looses very little... becomes a CR 4 undead monster without track and scent.. Shame a ECL 7 player can fight one, animate it and not be able to use it till they are level 10+ I believe... 10+? A CR 4 ally can be used starting at ECL 8. But what do you mean it loses very little? Theres not a single special quality it would keep. None improve its attacks. Zevox
Zevox 03-28-07, 02:08 AM	As far as I know, you can find a "permanent fixture" of your deity for free. I'd say thats so. Presumably there shouldn't be any problems locating a temple or at least shrine to any given deity in a city the size of Gladius. Zevox
Rauul 03-28-07, 02:15 AM	10+? A CR 4 ally can be used starting at ECL 8. But what do you mean it loses very little? Theres not a single special quality it would keep. None improve its attacks. Zevox All the hellcats Specials are considered Extraordinary (ex) as stated under the rules for Skeletons it keeps all (ex) abilitys they improve it combat.. to include it's Invisible in light (ex) ability... Special Qualities A skeleton loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks. A skeleton gains the following special qualities. Immunity to Cold (Ex) Skeletons are not affected by cold. Damage Reduction (Ex) A skeleton has damage deduction 5/bludgeoning. Skeletons lack flesh or internal organs. Improved Grab (Ex) To use this ability, a hellcat must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake. Pounce (Ex) If a hellcat charges, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks. Rake (Ex) Attack bonus +13 melee, damage 1d8+3. Invisible in Light (Ex) A hellcat is Invisible in any area lit well enough for a human to see. In a darkened area, it shows up as a faintly glowing outline visible up to 30 feet away (60 feet if the viewer has low-light vision). Magical darkness smothers the glow and conceals the outline.
Zevox 03-28-07, 02:24 AM	All the hellcats Specials are considered Extraordinary (ex) as stated under the rules for Skeletons it keeps all (ex) abilitys they improve it combat.. to include it's Invisible in light (ex) ability... Read that again. It keeps "any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks" (emphasis mine). It does not keep any special attacks, like rake, pounce, or improved grab. It does not keep any non-extraordinary special qualities, like its DR, telepathy, fire resistance, or SR. It does not keep any extraordinary special qualities that don't improve its melee or ranged attacks specifically, like scent, invisibility, or darkvision. Basically, it keeps nothing. Zevox
Rauul 03-28-07, 02:36 AM	Read that again. It keeps "any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks" (emphasis mine). It does not keep any special attacks, like rake, pounce, or improved grab. It does not keep any non-extraordinary special qualities, like its DR, telepathy, fire resistance, or SR. It does not keep any extraordinary special qualities that don't improve its melee or ranged attacks specifically, like scent, invisibility, or darkvision. Basically, it keeps nothing. Zevox A Skeletal Red Dragon keeps it's Fire immunity.. and all it's extra attacks A Skeletal Hellcatt Should keep it's Invisibility in Light (ex), The rest after looking at the Skeleton examples I agree with you 100%
Zevox 03-28-07, 02:45 AM	A Skeletal Red Dragon keeps it's Fire immunity.. and all it's extra attacks The extra attacks it of course keeps. The template spells out that it keeps those unless the lack of flesh renders them useless. The fire immunity... I have no idea why it kept that. Looks like an error to me (not like we haven't seen them before - Telin caught the Chain Devil with an illegal feat a while back [Improved Crit before it could have the BAB prerequisite for it]). A Skeletal Hellcatt Should keep it's Invisibility in Light (ex), The rest after looking at the Skeleton examples I agree with you 100% Invisibility in Light doesn't improve its attacks directly, so it isn't kept. Simple as that. It allows it to strike vs FF AC, but thats not a direct improvement to the attacks themselves, and not even always a benefit (some creatures have no dex bonus, or even a dex loss to AC, which means no difference between normal and FF AC), so it doesn't qualify. Zevox
Rauul 03-28-07, 02:49 AM	The extra attacks it of course keeps. The template spells out that it keeps those unless the lack of flesh renders them useless. The fire immunity... I have no idea why it kept that. Looks like an error to me (not like we haven't seen them before - Telin caught the Chain Devil with an illegal feat a while back [Improved Crit before it could have the BAB prerequisite for it]). Invisibility in Light doesn't improve its attacks directly, so it isn't kept. Simple as that. It allows it to strike vs FF AC, but thats not a direct improvement to the attacks themselves, and not even always a benefit (some creatures have no dex bonus, or even a dex loss to AC, which means no difference between normal and FF AC), so it doesn't qualify. Zevox Bah if a Nightmare can keep it's Flight (thats not listed HOW it gets it), and a Dragon it's Immunity to fire.. a Hellcat should keep it's Invisiblity!
MindWandererB 03-28-07, 03:02 AM	Bah if a Nightmare can keep it's Flight (thats not listed HOW it gets it), and a Dragon it's Immunity to fire.. a Hellcat should keep it's Invisiblity!Actually, the dragon is not an error: it retains its fire immunity because it retains the fire subtype ("Size and Type: The creature’s type changes to undead. It retains any subtype except for alignment subtypes (such as good) and subtypes that indicate kind"). A nightmare keeps its flight because the rules say: "Speed: Winged skeletons can’t use their wings to fly. If the base creature flew magically, so can the skeleton." Unless there is a specific reason why an ability should be kept, it isn't.
McJarvis 03-28-07, 06:20 AM	The problem with the monk class is they are 2nd class citizens in every area. There's nothing they do better than everyone else at all levels, and there's few if anything they can do as well as any other optimized character. There's no "trick" that monks can use consistently and expect to work every time if it can be used. That's the same problem soulknives have. Plug into Oriental Adventures and that Shintao Monk(the one who gets feats like a fighter..might have the name wrong) prestige class & you'll see a monk shine. They make really good spies as well, since when they get patted down for weapons they don't need any to be extremely dangerous.(two levels of the rogue variant that gives feats does wonders in this regard, just for a few skill pickups) Go even further and get one of those sparring dummies of the master from the arms & equipment guide and you have a pretty slammin monk. (hehe...another pun) Of course, in Core they're more or less hosed. Level 2 or less :(
Zevox 03-28-07, 08:32 AM	Bah if a Nightmare can keep it's Flight (thats not listed HOW it gets it), and a Dragon it's Immunity to fire.. a Hellcat should keep it's Invisiblity! Like MWB said, theres very specific rules for what a skeleton keeps. If an ability doesn't fit with those rules, it isn't kept. A Nightmare's flight clearly isn't winged, so presumably its magical, and therefore according to the template it is kept. As he pointed out (and I missed completely), the Dragon's fire subtype is kept according to the template, and that lends it its fire immunity. The Hellcat's invisibility though falls under the rule about what special qualities are kept, and doesn't fit the criteria ("extraordinary special quality that improves its melee or ranged attacks"), so it isn't kept. Simple as that. Zevox
waywreth 03-28-07, 09:54 AM	If you purchase a powerstone of Energy adaption specified do you need to specify what type of energy it protects vs, or can you choose when you manifest it?
templer10 03-28-07, 10:18 AM	If you purchase a powerstone of Energy adaption specified do you need to specify what type of energy it protects vs, or can you choose when you manifest it? you need to spesify it - from the metarules- "Scrolls/Stones: Just like resist energy and other spells, expendables with polymorph (including Alter Self, Metamorphosis, Polymorph any Object, Shapechange) must be specified beforehand. Example: Scroll of Alter Self (Troglodyte). This only applies to expendables; not to memorized spells."
TelinArtho 03-28-07, 10:21 AM	you need to spesify it - from the metarules- "Scrolls/Stones: Just like resist energy and other spells, expendables with polymorph (including Alter Self, Metamorphosis, Polymorph any Object, Shapechange) must be specified beforehand. Example: Scroll of Alter Self (Troglodyte). This only applies to expendables; not to memorized spells." That is an illworded quote and one that we've been petitioning Cat to change for a while now... No - resist energy does not need to be specified in the scroll form (same would apply for Energy Adaptation in a powerstone).
waywreth 03-28-07, 10:36 AM	Thanks, makes sense.
templer10 03-28-07, 10:47 AM	That is an illworded quote and one that we've been petitioning Cat to change for a while now... No - resist energy does not need to be specified in the scroll form (same would apply for Energy Adaptation in a powerstone). good to know- thanks
Hirumajoe 03-28-07, 11:30 AM	I need some advice. I've been considering going to the training hall and having Valen Sky swap out his Concussive Blast for something that I might actually use. He's never used it so far, and I'm slowly coming to the realization that Valen is never really going to have enough PP for his level to use it all that effectively. 1d6 for every 2ish pp points isn't so great. So I've been debating various possibilities: (1st) Defensive Precognition - A very useful buff, and would let him bump his AC up to 30 (assuming 5pp Force Screen and 4pp Defensive Precog) not to mention improve Saving throws. But its yet another buff and well he doesn't have all that much time at the start of a fight (up to 2.5 free rounds at the start of a fight). (1st) Crystal Shard - A much more damage per pp efficient ability, which while requiring a touch attack, ignores SR and AMFs. Short range. (2nd) Swarm of Crystal - No Save, no attack roll, no SR, no nothing. Although lowish damage 1d4/pp and virtually no range (15' cone). (2nd) Control Sound - Might actually work well with Valen's Hide/MS abilities. Also, I believe the ruling from awhile back in the Court Room (although the debate kinda trailed off after awhile) was that you could use it as a readied action to "counter spell" (mess up the verbal components) a single verbal spell. (2nd) Ego Whip - Since Cha doesn't generally increase with levels (except for certain classes) once X amount of pp is reached, it becomes effective. Also good range. (2nd) Energy Stun - Area of effect (5'), damage plus stun and it scales well (DC and 1d6 damage per pp). Short range though. Thanks.
templer10 03-28-07, 11:42 AM	I need some advice. I've been considering going to the training hall and having Valen Sky swap out his Concussive Blast for something that I might actually use. He's never used it so far, and I'm slowly coming to the realization that Valen is never really going to have enough PP for his level to use it all that effectively. 1d6 for every 2ish pp points isn't so great. So I've been debating various possibilities: (1st) Defensive Precognition - A very useful buff, and would let him bump his AC up to 30 (assuming 5pp Force Screen and 4pp Defensive Precog) not to mention improve Saving throws. But its yet another buff and well he doesn't have all that much time at the start of a fight (up to 2.5 free rounds at the start of a fight). (1st) Crystal Shard - A much more damage per pp efficient ability, which while requiring a touch attack, ignores SR and AMFs. Short range. (2nd) Swarm of Crystal - No Save, no attack roll, no SR, no nothing. Although lowish damage 1d4/pp and virtually no range (15' cone). (2nd) Control Sound - Might actually work well with Valen's Hide/MS abilities. Also, I believe the ruling from awhile back in the Court Room (although the debate kinda trailed off after awhile) was that you could use it as a readied action to "counter spell" (mess up the verbal components) a single verbal spell. (2nd) Ego Whip - Since Cha doesn't generally increase with levels (except for certain classes) once X amount of pp is reached, it becomes effective. Also good range. (2nd) Energy Stun - Area of effect (5'), damage plus stun and it scales well (DC and 1d6 damage per pp). Short range though. Thanks. go for share pain- BEST- BUFF- EVER- - it gives you at the very minimum 29 more HP for 3 pps (when shared with your psi- crystal) and if you want really something nice- do a viogr first shared with your psi crystal and THEN do share pain - gives you an effective HP of 126 - (47+25+ psicrystal - 29+25) the nicest thing about it it's 1 hour/level so it's possible for it to last 2 fights (and will for sure in a few levels).
Zevox 03-28-07, 11:59 AM	I'd go with defensive precognition or crystal shard. Boosts to saves and AC from defensive precognition is always nice (since experimenting with it with Arden I've decided to cough up credits for Istima to switch a power for it sometime during the summer, when I can pitlord again), and crystal shard is a great attack power for the reasons you said. The attack roll is rarely a problem since its a touch attack, and its range goes up with level, unlike Swarm of Crystals. Of course, Ego Whip is always a good power, but I'm not going to encourage another person to use it, since I hate it myself (one of two psionic powers I think is broken, the other being Touchsight). Zevox
TelinArtho 03-28-07, 12:01 PM	Just making sure, but if you have two breath weapons but they are listed under one entry (ie the metallic dragons), ability focus would be applied to one only correct? So a gold dragon could take Ability Focus (Fire Breath) or Ability Focus (Weakening breath) but not Ability Focus (Breath Weapon).
Tellish_of_Ket 03-28-07, 12:08 PM	quick question on Full Activity Crafting: If i'm crafting more than 1000gp, it's considered a full activity. Is there a cap? Can i craft like 12k worth of stuff as ONE full activity? OR are they broken down into 1000gp increments of weeks. Ex...that 12k would take 12 pairings to complete. ToK
TelinArtho 03-28-07, 12:09 PM	You can craft up to 7000gp market value worth of stuff in one full activity. If you want to craft 12kgp, you would have to use 2 full activities.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-28-07, 12:17 PM	You can craft up to 7000gp market value worth of stuff in one full activity. If you want to craft 12kgp, you would have to use 2 full activities. SWEET! thx.
TelinArtho 03-28-07, 12:18 PM	I don't know - but I found it rather annoying... Kraegin was active for a total of 50 weeks. 9 of those were quests, 24 fights and 17 weeks of crafting... (I'm joking of course. Kraegin was built with the knowledge that he had a lot of down time to craft...)
Tellish_of_Ket 03-28-07, 12:37 PM	I don't know - but I found it rather annoying... Kraegin was active for a total of 50 weeks. 9 of those were quests, 24 fights and 17 weeks of crafting... (I'm joking of course. Kraegin was built with the knowledge that he had a lot of down time to craft...) Yeah, i just made another "maven"ish type. Just wondering if i should release her upon the public. I'd have +14k gp, after exiting the 3rd level bracket. I'm sure it would be ripe for another nerfing of the crafting rules vs selling +% rules. Just using quick math in my head, i'd be 625k gp ahead of the competition at 10th level. Assuming i went full abuse, and didn't go for the juggular to win until 10th. The difference with this maven is she can win right from the get go. ToK
TelinArtho 03-28-07, 12:42 PM	I'd love to see the progression on that one... at worst, a character would take 13 fights to move through ECL3 (that's 13 losses with a CR1 ally without any opponents having allies). This means you could craft a total of 4 times (in between each cycle) to gain an item to sell at a super discount in one week, and then money-making activities in the other two? And this could possibly just introduce the tentative ruling Sauro and some others were discussing a while ago where you sell items at half of what you paid for it...
Tellish_of_Ket 03-28-07, 12:49 PM	I'd love to see the progression on that one... at worst, a character would take 13 fights to move through ECL3 (that's 13 losses with a CR1 ally without any opponents having allies). This means you could craft a total of 4 times (in between each cycle) to gain an item to sell at a super discount in one week, and then money-making activities in the other two? Yup..except i would never use a "moneymaking skill" while fighting. Since i can do a free activity while fighting, i would use that time to sell an item. So in essence i would only fight every two weeks...yeah...REALLY fricking slow and long. lol. Week 1: Fight (sell an item crafted at character creation) Week 2: Fight (sell an item crafted at creation) Week 3: use money earned for full crafting activity (large-sized adamantine breastplate with adamantine armour spikes = 7000gp/2 = 3500) Week 4: Fight, + sell back for 4130gp (profit of 630gp at 18%) Rinse, repeat. You end up with 14,315 gp after all 13 fights. ToK
Zevox 03-28-07, 12:52 PM	Yup..except i would never use a "moneymaking skill" while fighting. Since i can do a free activity while fighting, i would use that time to sell an item. So in essence i would only fight every two weeks...yeah...REALLY fricking slow and long. lol. Week 1: Fight (sell an item crafted at character creation) Week 2: Fight (sell an item crafted at creation) Week 3: use money earned for full crafting activity (large-sized adamantine breastplate with adamantine armour spikes = 7000gp/2 = 3500) Week 4: Fight, + sell back for 4130gp (profit of 630gp at 18%) Rinse, repeat. ToK Can't do that. You can only do full activities of any kind in between cycles. So you absolutely need to have 3 fights between each crafting session. Zevox
Tellish_of_Ket 03-28-07, 12:56 PM	Can't do that. You can only do full activities of any kind in between cycles. So you absolutely need to have 3 fights between each crafting session. Zevox Ahhh....good to know. I didn't know that. Uhmmmm....thinking...thinking..
Tellish_of_Ket 03-28-07, 01:04 PM	Got it. 1FC: fight + sell a creating item 2FC: Full Crafting 3FC: fight + sell full crafted item 1FC: Full Crafting 2FC: Fight + sell full crafted item 3FC: Fight + sell other item from creation 1FC: Full Crafting 2FC: Fight + sell full crafted item 3FC: Fight + craft item of 1k or less 1FC: Full Crafting 2FC: Fight + sell full crafted item 3FC: Fight + sell item of 1k or less Not sure how much money u'd lose from the 14k...but it can't be much. U'd probably end up with 11 or 12k gross anyhow. Still pretty good. ToK
McJarvis 03-28-07, 01:10 PM	Honestly, I'd like to see crafting removed as a full activity and make the free activity version of it proportionate to your ECL. Of course, there is no justification rules-wise for this. So meh?
Tellish_of_Ket 03-28-07, 01:40 PM	Ya...that full crafting only being able to be done once per 3FC, puts a HUGE dent in the final total at the ECL 10 league. Instead of 635k gross gp total, it's more like only 175k+'ish. That's suddenly not as tempting to accomplish. ToK
Hirumajoe 03-28-07, 02:00 PM	go for share pain- BEST- BUFF- EVER- - it gives you at the very minimum 29 more HP for 3 pps (when shared with your psi- crystal) and if you want really something nice- do a viogr first shared with your psi crystal and THEN do share pain - gives you an effective HP of 126 - (47+25+ psicrystal - 29+25) the nicest thing about it it's 1 hour/level so it's possible for it to last 2 fights (and will for sure in a few levels). While its true you do get the 29 hp, sharing vigor doesn't quite work in the way you think. You'd have to manifest it twice, once with your Psicrystal and once for yourself. You only get temporary hp or healing once from any casting, even if you're sharing it with the psicrystal/familiar share spell ability. Thus you need to decide how to split it ahead of time. Its not a bad ability and it does in fact increase your hit points by about 50% (until your Psicrystal dies horribly and isn't useful for the rest of the cycle.) But I think I'd rather take less damage in the first place, via the Defensive Precog, which also protects against save or dies.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-28-07, 02:04 PM	Ya...that full crafting only being able to be done once per 3FC, puts a HUGE dent in the final total at the ECL 10 league. Instead of 635k gross gp total, it's more like only 175k+'ish. That's suddenly not as tempting to accomplish. ToK OH snap...i think i just figured out how to get around that. Correct me if i'm wrong, but you can only do ONE full cycle crafting per 3FC, so then after a few weeks you could easily craft 21k worth of stuff...which would take 3 full weeks, occupying all 3FC...then ur following 3fc, you just fight and sell one piece of armour each week. That's actually more profitable than what i first suggested. Dang. ToK
TheMagister 03-28-07, 02:10 PM	Of course, you actually have to have the 21K to start with. THAT takes some doin'. TM
TheMagister 03-28-07, 02:11 PM	On a different note: Tessero and Cupid (The Battlesong Duet) will be miniquesting this week to qualify Tessero for the Warmind prestige class. Anyone wanna pick that up, or do I throw myself on the mercy of the Pairings? It'd be ECL 7. TM
TelinArtho 03-28-07, 02:26 PM	Careful there TM - I'm officially back on the active roster for pitlords...
hogarth 03-28-07, 02:31 PM	OH snap...i think i just figured out how to get around that. Correct me if i'm wrong, but you can only do ONE full cycle crafting per 3FC, so then after a few weeks you could easily craft 21k worth of stuff...which would take 3 full weeks, occupying all 3FC...then ur following 3fc, you just fight and sell one piece of armour each week. That's actually more profitable than what i first suggested. Dang. My character Balthazar Picsou is an experiment in how much you can benefit from the Sell Item activity. So far, it looks like the answer is "at low levels -- not much". Of course, "compound interest" kicks in eventually. Note that the ideal situation is not to use Sell Item for every fight in your cycle. It's more profitable to have all of your wealth invested in one (ideally) or two item(s) and then use the other fight(s) to make money with a Craft skill (even if it's just a puny amount). The most expensive thing Balthazar Picsou can currently afford to make is a 5200 gp Helm of Comprehend Languages and Read Magic, but soon he'll be able to make 12000 gp Pipes of Pain (which actually have a combat use, too). From there, he'll probably start making the one of the more overpriced items in the SRD -- the Robe of Blending (a whopping 30000 gp for the equivalent of a 1800 gp Hat of Disguise + a 10000 gp Skin of the Chameleon).
TheMagister 03-28-07, 02:32 PM	Careful there TM - I'm officially back on the active roster for pitlords... So pick it up and don't unintentionally screw us. (I'm a forgiving person.) TM
TelinArtho 03-28-07, 02:34 PM	Ya...that full crafting only being able to be done once per 3FC, puts a HUGE dent in the final total at the ECL 10 league. Instead of 635k gross gp total, it's more like only 175k+'ish. That's suddenly not as tempting to accomplish. ToK Well, although you have to craft larger things outside of the 3FC, there's no reason to limit yourself to 3 weeks of crafting. Take for example Kraegin who crafted for 5 weeks then was active for a cycle, then crafted for 4 weeks. Etc, etc
TelinArtho 03-28-07, 02:35 PM	So pick it up and don't unintentionally screw us. (I'm a forgiving person.) TM Sure - go ahead and put me on the note for it. The worst that could happen would be for the two of you to die... Also - make sure McJarvis addresses the violation I posted...
TheMagister 03-28-07, 02:37 PM	(I'm a forgiving person.) TM And a slow learner to boot. Did you PM McJ? If so, he'll get to it. TM
TheMagister 03-28-07, 02:39 PM	{Wince} Ouch. That'll hurt us. TM
Zevox 03-28-07, 02:40 PM	@ ToK - I think you're confused here. You're not limited to 1 full week of crafting per cycle. You simply cannot do a full activity while in mid-cycle. You can take as many weeks of full activities at a time as you like, just only when you're not in the middle of a cycle (i.e. between fights 3 and 1). Zevox
TelinArtho 03-28-07, 02:40 PM	And a slow learner to boot. Did you PM McJ? If so, he'll get to it. TM I did not PM him - that is not my responsibility. Still - he should be aware of it before you guys get into this...
TheMagister 03-28-07, 02:44 PM	Meanie. I'll do it. :P
TelinArtho 03-28-07, 02:45 PM	On a different note: Tessero and Cupid (The Battlesong Duet) will be miniquesting this week to qualify Tessero for the Warmind prestige class. Anyone wanna pick that up, or do I throw myself on the mercy of the Pairings? It'd be ECL 7. TM Wait EL6 or 7? Your characters are in the EL6 league - aren't they? Anyway - I'll post up the intro in a little bit.
TheMagister 03-28-07, 02:46 PM	We just leveled up to 5 each, so ECL 7. Unless I can get away with ECL 5. Can I get away with ECL 5? TM
Macbrea 03-28-07, 02:47 PM	Are we allowed to quest at level 3 or do we have to wait til level 4 now? As I want Lars to join a prestige class when he can. But want to get the requirement out of the way as soon as possible or at least take 3 attempts at it.
TelinArtho 03-28-07, 02:50 PM	We just leveled up to 5 each, so ECL 7. Unless I can get away with ECL 5. Can I get away with ECL 5? TM That's odd... Cupid is still showing up as ECL4 (Bard 4) with 7.7k exp. Am I missing something (you are right that Tessero is ECL5 though. I think you do need to run it at your EL though.
McJarvis 03-28-07, 02:51 PM	@Telin: (RE: Cupid's prison terms) It was my understanding that we treat PoP's as able to recall Power-points. Given this interpretation of their use, I just assumed we extended their capabilities to Spontanious casters as well. (since spontanious casting & power-manifesting is essentially the same mechanic.) If I'm wrong then I'll just refund Cupid's PoP immediately.
Macbrea 03-28-07, 02:54 PM	Nope, Pearls of power fall under the following rule for psionic characters. magic items for psioiinic characters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/basics.htm#magicItemsForPsionicCharacter s)
Tellish_of_Ket 03-28-07, 02:54 PM	My character Balthazar Picsou is an experiment in how much you can benefit from the Sell Item activity. So far, it looks like the answer is "at low levels -- not much". Of course, "compound interest" kicks in eventually. Note that the ideal situation is not to use Sell Item for every fight in your cycle. It's more profitable to have all of your wealth invested in one (ideally) or two item(s) and then use the other fight(s) to make money with a Craft skill (even if it's just a puny amount). The most expensive thing Balthazar Picsou can currently afford to make is a 5200 gp Helm of Comprehend Languages and Read Magic, but soon he'll be able to make 12000 gp Pipes of Pain (which actually have a combat use, too). From there, he'll probably start making the one of the more overpriced items in the SRD -- the Robe of Blending (a whopping 30000 gp for the equivalent of a 1800 gp Hat of Disguise + a 10000 gp Skin of the Chameleon). Yeah, i looked at blathazaar. And i actually took human instead of the +2 int. I have two skill foci and craft wonderous item. He actually makes 4gp/week more than the gray elf version. Also, after a few rounds, he'd invest in +10 skill items, that would easily pay for themselves. And 21k isn't far off...it's about 8 fights into ECL 4 league...that's when i start putting REAL distance on the money train. Full crafting 21k, then selling them for profit in each fight of a 3fc is HUGE. With my build, thats an additional 6k every 3FC (not including the money i win from a lost fight). At the end of ECL 4, i have grossed 105,825gp. Assuming i don't accidently win. Man, that would suk. At ECL 5, wow...it gets worse. lol...I think i might have been wrong about 625k by ECL 10....i think i could breach the Million. That would be nice...the first CoCo Million-Dollar Man. ToK
TelinArtho 03-28-07, 02:55 PM	@Telin: (RE: Cupid's prison terms) It was my understanding that we treat PoP's as able to recall Power-points. Given this interpretation of their use, I just assumed we extended their capabilities to Spontanious casters as well. (since spontanious casting & power-manifesting is essentially the same mechanic.) If I'm wrong then I'll just refund Cupid's PoP immediately. We do allow PoP's to recall power points due to the note to that effect in the Psionic SRD: MAGIC ITEMS FOR PSIONIC CHARACTERS Many magic items can aid psionic characters. The table below provides some possibilities. Table: Magic–Psionics Equivalencies Magic Item Psionic Effect Helm of telepathy Substitute power for spell Pearl of power Treat in all ways as a cognizance crystal with power point capacity appropriate to the equivalent power level Crystal ball Substitute power for spell Ioun stones Vibrant purple Stores three levels of psionic powers Pale lavender Absorbs powers up to 4th level (burns out as normal) Rainbow1 Provides 5 power points per day (regenerates) Dull gray2 Provides 1 power point to a psionic character, then disintegrates 1 New item: Treat as a cognizance crystal in ioun stone form, except that it regenerates its stored power points each day; Price 16,000 gp. 2 Dull gray stones are useless for magic but still harbor just enough resonance that a psionic character can eke out 1 power point before the stone is gone forever. But there has been no change to allow it to work for spontaneous casters. If you want to get a custom item for it - you can petition for it in the blackmarket, but otherwise - it is a no-go.
McJarvis 03-28-07, 02:59 PM	We do allow PoP's to recall power points due to the note to that effect in the Psionic SRD: But there has been no change to allow it to work for spontaneous casters. If you want to get a custom item for it - you can petition for it in the blackmarket, but otherwise - it is a no-go. If that's how we decided it then we are wrong, wrong, wrong. The text quoted by you and Mac clearly says "The table below provides some possibilities" & pearl of power clearly says it only works for people who prepare ((spells/powers)) ahead of time. Since no core psionic characters prepare powers ahead of time, we should NOT be implimenting it this way unless we allowed spontanious casters to do it too. ((I'm not even sure if there are psionic users who prepare ahead of time, but I don't know the Complete Psionics by heart))
Tellish_of_Ket 03-28-07, 03:01 PM	Yeah, i'm just reading that above...and psionics are all spontaneous and are not allowed to use PoP under any circumstance. That is a completely bogus rule imho. That's why they have cog crystals. ToK
TelinArtho 03-28-07, 03:03 PM	To be honest, I've never seen a psionic character with a pearl of power anyway - but it does appear I'm wrong. In any case - they are still a no-go for spontaneous casters.
hogarth 03-28-07, 03:06 PM	If that's how we decided it then we are wrong, wrong, wrong. The text quoted by you and Mac clearly says "The table below provides some possibilities" & pearl of power clearly says it only works for people who prepare ((spells/powers)) ahead of time. Since no core psionic characters prepare powers ahead of time, we should NOT be implimenting it this way unless we allowed spontanious casters to do it too. ((I'm not even sure if there are psionic users who prepare ahead of time, but I don't know the Complete Psionics by heart)) It specifically says you can use a Pearl of Power as an N-pt. cognizance crystal -- that overrules any description that says it only works for prepared casters in that capacity. There's nothing anywhere that says a prepared spellcaster can use one for anything (there's an item in a splatbook that does the same thing for spontaneous casters, but it's not in the SRD). I don't have any problem with disallowing the psionic use for a PoP, though; it is optional.
Macbrea 03-28-07, 03:09 PM	Yeah, after rereading that description all it does is turn pearls of power into Cognizance crystals. Though, a psion/wizard would get to use it as both. The problem in CoCo with a Cognizance crystal is you have to put the power points into the crystal. With our 3fc this means you would have to prebuff the power points into the crystal. This seems counter productive. Since, everything resets at the end of a 3fc shouldn't a crystal go back to 0?
hogarth 03-28-07, 03:11 PM	Yeah, i looked at blathazaar. And i actually took human instead of the +2 int. I have two skill foci and craft wonderous item. He actually makes 4gp/week more than the gray elf version. Also, after a few rounds, he'd invest in +10 skill items, that would easily pay for themselves. And 21k isn't far off...it's about 8 fights into ECL 4 league...that's when i start putting REAL distance on the money train. Of course Balthazar could make more money if he deliberately tried to earn the minimum amount of XP possible, but I feel it would be lame to not make a good faith (if feeble) effort at winning fights. Besides, I don't have the patience to draw out the ECL 3 bracket to 13 weeks or more just for an experiment.
MindWandererB 03-28-07, 03:11 PM	Yeah, after rereading that description all it does is turn pearls of power into Cognizance crystals. Though, a psion/wizard would get to use it as both. The problem in CoCo with a Cognizance crystal is you have to put the power points into the crystal. With our 3fc this means you would have to prebuff the power points into the crystal. This seems counter productive. Since, everything resets at the end of a 3fc shouldn't a crystal go back to 0? Actually, we ruled that cog. crystals automatically start a 3FC full. It makes for a complex situation in the case of a cerebremancer--if it starts full of PP, what happens if you want to use it to recall a spell?
TelinArtho 03-28-07, 03:12 PM	I'd have to look it up - but I think CCs have been houseruled to be filled outside of the 3FC specifically (so they aren't completely useless...).
hogarth 03-28-07, 03:18 PM	Actually, we ruled that cog. crystals automatically start a 3FC full. It makes for a complex situation in the case of a cerebremancer--if it starts full of PP, what happens if you want to use it to recall a spell? My take is that you can use it for one or the other purpose, but not both per cycle. (That's based on nothing in the rules, of course.) The only real advantage to having PoPs work as cognizance crystals that I can see is that a caster can craft some for him and his psionic cohort to share.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-28-07, 03:29 PM	Of course Balthazar could make more money if he deliberately tried to earn the minimum amount of XP possible, but I feel it would be lame to not make a good faith (if feeble) effort at winning fights. Besides, I don't have the patience to draw out the ECL 3 bracket to 13 weeks or more just for an experiment. Well, the final calculations are in from my table. On fight 4 of ECL 10, Maven II, would gross a whopping 1,387,733 gp. Will i do it? Nope. Just wanted to see some min/maxing for myself. Oh, and the time to accomplish all this? Appromixately 180 weeks. :( So, no worries...it's not gonna happen. Why so long? Needs to spend a lot of time crafting expensive items to sell in ONE shot. I haven't tried to figure out many caster levels to make expensive magic items, but then it wouldn't scale properly as i'd have to wait to attain certain levels before the gold goes up. Without caster levels, i can just keep crafting armour all my life. Colossal Adamantine Full Plate with Small Adamantine Armour spikes is exactly 42k/2=21k. That takes 3 weeks to craft. Do that three times, then fight. You can do this easily half-way through ECL 4 league. It only starts off being 4.4k profit per fight, but goes up with each league. After 3 such turns, you can afford +10 skill items to each necessary skill without losing any real money. Then it goes up to 5670gp profit per fight in the ECL 4 league. Actually, i was just thinking...u couldn't afford 3 of those at ECL 4 in one shot. You could after 11 fights i think, so yeah, it would slow u down a bit until ECL 5, but not much. ToK
hogarth 03-28-07, 03:32 PM	Colossal Adamantine Full Plate with Small Adamantine Armour spikes is exactly 42k/2=21k. That takes 3 weeks to craft. Actually, crafting time is based on purchase price (not raw materials price) so it would take 6 weeks to craft!
Tellish_of_Ket 03-28-07, 03:33 PM	Actually, crafting time is based on purchase price (not raw materials price) so it would take 6 weeks to craft! WHAT!!! Ugh...so now you tell me. I didn't see that in the Skills/Feats section of rules when i was reading them.....GRRRR!!! ToK
TelinArtho 03-28-07, 03:34 PM	Just remember - crafting time is based on the market value - so 42k worth of stuff would take 6 weeks to craft. In any case - yes it could be done - but why bother? Just to exploit something so badly that it gets taken away so the people who aren't exploiting it can't benefit from it?
Tellish_of_Ket 03-28-07, 03:41 PM	You think 227 weeks is abusing a system? LOL LOL hardly. But if i DID do it, by ECL 10, and if i decided to start winning (intentionally) then i'd have all stat books +5, mirror of life trapping, each commanding elemental item (doesn't count towards allies), a max-diplomacy ally, helm of teleportation, dearn's fortress to retreat into while my allies beat the living crap out of u. I could probably go undeafeated all the way to 20th after that. LOL ToK
Erithmu 03-28-07, 03:42 PM	You think 227 weeks is abusing a system? LOL LOL hardly. But if i DID do it, by ECL 10, and if i decided to start winning (intentionally) then i'd have all stat books +5, mirror of life trapping, each commanding elemental item (doesn't count towards allies), a max-diplomacy ally, helm of teleportation, dearn's fortress to retreat into while my allies beat the living crap out of u. I could probably go undeafeated all the way to 20th after that. LOL ToKSounds like a 5-year plan ...
Tellish_of_Ket 03-28-07, 03:43 PM	Sounds like a 5-year plan ... Well, next time i'm in a job interview and the interviewer asks "Where do you see yourself in 5 years?" i can honestly say, "Wealthy and Undefeatable". LOL ToK
MindWandererB 03-28-07, 03:54 PM	Well, next time i'm in a job interview and the interviewer asks "Where do you see yourself in 5 years?" i can honestly say, "Wealthy and Undefeatable". LOL And the absurd thing is that by ECL 15 or so, even with a record of about 17 wins and 100 losses, you'd have Great Renown easily due to the way our system works.
TelinArtho 03-28-07, 04:01 PM	Just making sure, but if you have two breath weapons but they are listed under one entry (ie the metallic dragons), ability focus would be applied to one only correct? So a gold dragon could take Ability Focus (Fire Breath) or Ability Focus (Weakening breath) but not Ability Focus (Breath Weapon). So would anyone like to confirm this post for me? I happen to be working on a dragon and this might affect her feat selection. Also - can silversheen be applied to natural weapons?
Tellish_of_Ket 03-28-07, 04:05 PM	And the absurd thing is that by ECL 15 or so, even with a record of about 17 wins and 100 losses, you'd have Great Renown easily due to the way our system works. Well, he'd also have a political career of 64% (+32 each at ECL 10), so i would only need 1 fights to level past ECL 10, then goes up to 66%, and two more fights to exit ECL 11...etc... So i'd only have a 9/130 record...that would still give me a FAILURE tag i think. But, on the flip side, i think someone could actually lose their GREAT RENOWN by fighting me, even just once. Not sure on all that, either way, i'm not doing Maven II, i'm satisfied that it would work, so no worries. ToK
McJarvis 03-28-07, 04:06 PM	And the absurd thing is that by ECL 15 or so, even with a record of about 17 wins and 100 losses, you'd have Great Renown easily due to the way our system works. This is why we should execute gladiators who dip below a certain overall rating.
MindWandererB 03-28-07, 04:09 PM	So would anyone like to confirm this post for me? I happen to be working on a dragon and this might affect her feat selection. Also - can silversheen be applied to natural weapons?As for the former, it's a tough call. I am leaning toward Ability Focus being applied to both breath weapon types. The two breath weapons aren't totally independent--if you use one of them, you can't use the other for 1d4 rounds--and the text says that they have two "types" of breath weapon, not two breath weapons. However, if you managed to get a breath weapon from some other source (like a half green dragon gold dragon), it would apply to only one breath weapon, since they'd be two different abilities. Typically, "weapon" means manufactured weapon when it's referring to the target of an ability. I don't think silversheen can be used on a natural weapon.
MindWandererB 03-28-07, 04:19 PM	Well, he'd also have a political career of 64% (+32 each at ECL 10), so i would only need 1 fights to level past ECL 10, then goes up to 66%, and two more fights to exit ECL 11...etc... So i'd only have a 9/130 record...that would still give me a FAILURE tag i think. But, on the flip side, i think someone could actually lose their GREAT RENOWN by fighting me, even just once. Not sure on all that, either way, i'm not doing Maven II, i'm satisfied that it would work, so no worries. ToK Well, let's do some calculations. Assuming all your opponents were PR 1000, your powerrating bottoms out at 5 after 50 losses (5/1000*100=.5, 5-.5=4.5, rounds to 5 again). If you fight someone weaker after that (probable), it'll go down to 4. But then look what happens: you beat someone. Anyone. Let's assume it's another failure with a PR of 600. Your powerrating goes up by (600/4*100=15000). Congrats, you now have unassailable great renown, with a PR of 15004. Yeah, not exactly a failure. Of course, the poor shlump you just beat now has a PR of negative 14400, which throws the entire system completely out of whack, whether they win or lose from then on.
Macbrea 03-28-07, 04:24 PM	Also - can silversheen be applied to natural weapons? Silversheen This substance can be applied to a weapon as a standard action. It will give the weapon the properties of alchemical silver for 1 hour, replacing the properties of any other special material it might have. One vial will coat a single melee weapon or 20 units of ammunition. Note that it doesn't say a manufactured weapon. The RoTG article went out of the way to state that there are three different states of melee attacks - 'Unarmed strike', "natural weapons' and 'manufactured weapons'. Natural weapons state they are lethal and don't gain benefit from iterative attacks. I would think they would be able to be silversheened as it doesn't specify manufactured weapon.
Macbrea 03-28-07, 04:30 PM	And in truth, you might just want to wait a couple weeks until they finish doing article two of that ROTG. As I am sure they will come up with some crazy ruling that will effect everyone with natural weapons.
Rauul 03-28-07, 04:32 PM	Does anyone else have problems opening Shadows (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11803386&postcount=1093) sblocks on the traps.. ToK saids he can't and i have looked and can't see a problem...
McJarvis 03-28-07, 04:38 PM	Well, let's do some calculations. Assuming all your opponents were PR 1000, your powerrating bottoms out at 5 after 50 losses (5/1000*100=.5, 5-.5=4.5, rounds to 5 again). If you fight someone weaker after that (probable), it'll go down to 4. But then look what happens: you beat someone. Anyone. Let's assume it's another failure with a PR of 600. Your powerrating goes up by (600/4*100=15000). Congrats, you now have unassailable great renown, with a PR of 15004. Yeah, not exactly a failure. Of course, the poor shlump you just beat now has a PR of negative 14400, which throws the entire system completely out of whack, whether they win or lose from then on. This problem would likely dissapear if we converted the rating system to a probability//bell curve. (similar to baseball hitting ratios-> all ratings could be between 0 and 1,000)
Zevox 03-28-07, 04:45 PM	Does anyone else have problems opening Shadows (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11803386&postcount=1093) sblocks on the traps.. ToK saids he can't and i have looked and can't see a problem... I can't open them either. Must not be Firefox-friendly - check for tags that aren't closed before the sblock starts (from the looks of things, you might have a font tag that does that). Zevox
Rauul 03-28-07, 04:48 PM	I can't open them either. Must not be Firefox-friendly - check for tags that aren't closed before the sblock starts (from the looks of things, you might have a font tag that does that). Zevox I only use firefox and they work for me... and if i run across any that don't i just hit reload and that seems to make them work (on other players sheets) (firefox 2.0.0.3 is the version i use)
MindWandererB 03-28-07, 04:56 PM	I can't open them either. Must not be Firefox-friendly - check for tags that aren't closed before the sblock starts (from the looks of things, you might have a font tag that does that). Zevox I can open them as well--but several unopenable sblocks became openable after I updated Firefox recently.
TelinArtho 03-28-07, 05:29 PM	Hmmm - I need some help understanding how Intimidate works: As a Free Activity, you can use your Intimidate skill to scare one or more allies of your opponent that have an intelligence of 3 or more. Your Intimidate value must be at least as high as (Ally CR + Ally Wisdom + Resistance to fear) to affect him or her (called Courage Value). There are three different effects depending on your Intimidate value relative to the Courage Value: Scared: Your intimidate skill is at least equal to the ally's Courage Value. Your opponent's ally is Shaken for the entire combat. Frightened: Your intimidate value is higher than the Courage Value by 5 or more. Your opponent's ally is Frightened for the first 4 rounds, then is Shaken for the entire combat. Panicked: Your intimidate value is higher than the Courage Value by 10 or more. Your opponent's ally is Panicked and does not appear to the fight. Multiple Allies: If the opponent has more than one ally, you can decide which ally you want to intimidate. After having intimidated the first ally, deduct the the Courage Value from your Intimidate Value. If you have points left, you can intimidate another ally (and so on) but your Intimidate value is decreased after each intimidation. Handle Animal: If you also have a Handle Animal value equal to the CR of an opponent's ally, you may also intimidate animals. If you have a Handle Animal value of CR+5 you can intimidate magical beasts and vermin. Note: If the ally is immune to fear, he is also not subject to Intimidate. If the master has the Aura of Courage (Paladin 3), the ally gains an additional +4 bonus to resist the level check. Special: You gain a +4 bonus on your Intimidate check for every size category that you are larger than your target. Conversely, you take a –4 penalty on your Intimidate check for every size category that you are smaller than your target Okay - let's use a medium character as the intimidator with a +20 to his intimidate. He's also got handle animal up the wazoo - so no issue there. His opponent has a a pair of guard dogs (CR1/3, +1 Wis, small size), a riding dog (CR1, +1 Wis, medium size), a light warhorse (CR1, +1 Wis, Large) and an Ogre Diplomacy ally (CR3, large size). Now - depending on who he intimidates, his intimidate score can go up or down accordingly. Are we ignoring the size modifiers to this? If we aren't - how exactly does it figure? For instance, if he chooses to intimidate the two guard dogs (courage value = 1-2), his score goes up to +24 against them, so after subtracting it - he's at +20. Now he intimidates the riding dog (courage value = 2) to be at +18. Next up is the ogre (courage value = 3), but now his score drops by 4 first - leaving him at +11? This can get pretty confusing. I realize this is not going to happen this way... but I do want to understand it before I invest in intimidate with my new tiny dragon...
Rauul 03-28-07, 05:34 PM	Yanno... for such a huge city... Gladius has a very very small amout of animals you can purchuse without credits... Shrug... to buy a non Advanced, or Elite griffon or pegasis or any of the non standard "pets" does it cost credits?
MindWandererB 03-28-07, 05:36 PM	Actually, that sounds pretty good, except that you missed a size change. Step 1: guard dogs. They're treated as if you have a 24 intimidate, so they're panicked. Subtract 2. Step 2: riding dog. It's treated as if you have a 20 intimidate, -2 from the guard dogs, so 18. It's also panicked. Subtract another 2. Step 3: ogre. Your base intimidate is 16 now, -4=12. You beat its courage value by 9, so it's only frightened. Alternatively, you can go the other way around. Start with the ogre (16 vs. 3, panicked), then the riding dog (17 vs. 2, panicked), and finally the guard dogs (19 vs. 1, panicked). That would be the better way to go.
TelinArtho 03-28-07, 05:44 PM	Hmm - I suppose that would work... Now I just need to overcome my tiny dragon's rather negative modifier for being small... Or maybe I'll just invest the skill points for later on when she's all grown up...
Tellish_of_Ket 03-28-07, 05:48 PM	Hey, ur not making a pseudodragon are ya? Dang, i've always had a good build here just sitting around waiting for me to bust him out. ToK
Zevox 03-28-07, 05:56 PM	Yanno... for such a huge city... Gladius has a very very small amout of animals you can purchuse without credits... Shrug... to buy a non Advanced, or Elite griffon or pegasis or any of the non standard "pets" does it cost credits? No, it doesn't. Purchased allies can be bought customized with advanced HD, the elite array, or feat or skill changes simply by paying the additional gp cost found in the rules thread. Zevox
TelinArtho 03-28-07, 05:56 PM	Nope - she's a copper dragon. Current plan is to advance in dragon HD up through ECL15+. At ECL8 (6HD), she'll pick up leadership and have a dragon cohort... (looks like brass dragon at the moment)... Its a tough build for me - but if I get it polished up - I'll post it soon. My original form was a Wyrmling Gold but I didn't want to have to start at ECL12 for it... Of course, the character's a bit of a credit sink... ECL7, so that's 20 credits right up front, and then another 15 credits in wands that she'll need from the get-go...
Tellish_of_Ket 03-28-07, 06:04 PM	Nope - she's a copper dragon. Current plan is to advance in dragon HD up through ECL15+. At ECL8 (6HD), she'll pick up leadership and have a dragon cohort... (looks like brass dragon at the moment)... Its a tough build for me - but if I get it polished up - I'll post it soon. My original form was a Wyrmling Gold but I didn't want to have to start at ECL12 for it... Yeah, i'm also trying to come up with some sort of half-dragon centaur/griffon/pegasus thingy. Trying a few variations of each. All look very playable if i can nail a few things down. I don't spend as much time on it as i'd like, but if i get it complete it would easily be my masterpiece build. ToK
Rauul 03-28-07, 06:54 PM	1 quest/miniquest per level is rough of a charater concept that depends on it's allys... Now 1 quest per 3 levels of the Charater would be nice.. Shrugs
Hirumajoe 03-28-07, 08:08 PM	Anyone know if Attack/Defend packages apply to Monster fights? In the description it says 1 on 1 fights only, so I'm guessing not, but I'd thought I'd check.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-28-07, 08:21 PM	Anyone know if Attack/Defend packages apply to Monster fights? In the description it says 1 on 1 fights only, so I'm guessing not, but I'd thought I'd check. If i were your pitlord, i would allow it. You made the investment into the dang skill points to begin with and if the monster fight is 1:1 then why not. ToK
McJarvis 03-29-07, 08:43 AM	You know, for all the complaining about Blacklight, the following just occured to me: Spellcasting services-> Caster level 5 x Spell level 3 x 10 gp = 150 gp + 50 gp for components. = Continual Flame, as cast by a cleric. It's a 3rd level light spell, so it dispells Blacklight automatically. Get it heightened to a level 4 spell & the blacklight won't auto-dispel it in return. (extra 130gp) 200 gp fix. What a dumb spell for us to think is broken. edit-> I'll even go so far as to say that Greater Invis is better b/c people actually have to cast see invis during the fight in order to counter it. This just lets you get a prebuff'd perminant item.
hogarth 03-29-07, 09:05 AM	You know, for all the complaining about Blacklight, the following just occured to me: Spellcasting services-> Caster level 5 x Spell level 3 x 10 gp = 150 gp + 50 gp for components. = Continual Flame, as cast by a cleric. It's a 3rd level light spell, so it dispells Blacklight automatically. Get it heightened to a level 4 spell & the blacklight won't auto-dispel it in return. (extra 130gp) 200 gp fix. What a dumb spell for us to think is broken. edit-> I'll even go so far as to say that Greater Invis is better b/c people actually have to cast see invis during the fight in order to counter it. This just lets you get a prebuff'd perminant item. Of course, you have to get the Continual Flame within 20' (or 40'?) of the Blacklight in order to negate it. But the thought of using a 3rd-level spell with the [Light] descriptor had crossed my mind (although I had thought more along the lines of a heightened Dancing Lights or Faerie Fire so you don't have to get that close). EDIT: Actually, Continual Flame doesn't have the same clause as Daylight where it says "Daylight brought into an area of magical darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated". So a Continual Flame spell could be cast so as to counter or dispel a Blacklight, but just bringing it into the area does nothing (IMO).
McJarvis 03-29-07, 09:14 AM	EDIT: Actually, Continual Flame doesn't have the same clause as Daylight where it says "Daylight brought into an area of magical darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated". So a Continual Flame spell could be cast so as to counter or dispel a Blacklight, but just bringing it into the area does nothing (IMO). My SRD says: A flame, equivalent in brightness to a torch, springs forth from an object that you touch. The effect looks like a regular flame, but it creates no heat and doesn’t use oxygen. A continual flame can be covered and hidden but not smothered or quenched. Light spells counter and dispel darkness spells of an equal or lower level. Material Component: You sprinkle ruby dust (worth 50 gp) on the item that is to carry the flame. It doesn't say "can be used to dispel"(as in the action of casting->dispeling), it just says dispel. Thus "in the same area=it dispels" I suppose you could make a case for daylight having the extra clause, but I don't see why we should make continual flame less-power just because another spell further explained what "light spells counter and dispel darkness spells of an equal or lower level" means.
hogarth 03-29-07, 09:18 AM	It doesn't say "can be used to dispel"(as in the action of casting->dispeling), it just says dispel. Thus "in the same area=it dispels". Where does it explain this? I'm looking for a description of "counters and dispels" in the SRD, but I'm coming up dry. (Well, the "counters" part is explained.) My understanding is that you can cast the spell in lieu of a Dispel Magic and it will automatically succeed. I could be wrong, though. EDIT: Note also that (according to the wording in the spell description) overlapping a Daylight spell with a Blacklight doesn't actually dispel it, it just temporarily negates both spells.
templer10 03-29-07, 09:30 AM	question- what kind of gear can a dragon use and can it use wands while it still doesnt have an actual caster level? i think so - just want to make sure.
hogarth 03-29-07, 09:32 AM	question- what kind of gear can a dragon use and can it use wands while it still doesnt have an actual caster level? 1) Pretty much any equipment within reason should be O.K. except for hand-held weapons. 2) Yes, dragons can use wands even if they can't cast spells yet.
McJarvis 03-29-07, 09:33 AM	EDIT: Note also that (according to the wording in the spell description) overlapping a Daylight spell with a Blacklight doesn't actually dispel it, it just temporarily negates both spells. That's a pretty good point. I'll buy it. (regarding how it differs from dispelling/countering). On a somewhat related subject-> RE: Cog. Crystals If we're allowed to pre-buff charging these, doesn't it stand to reason that spellcasters could prebuff spells with longer-than-a-day duration without spending a spell slot?
templer10 03-29-07, 09:35 AM	ok another question- what is the vertical reach of a large creature (as in - up to the sky) i know it's not exacly as it's written in the SRD but i dont remmber what
Zevox 03-29-07, 09:37 AM	RE: Cog. Crystals If we're allowed to pre-buff charging these, doesn't it stand to reason that spellcasters could prebuff spells with longer-than-a-day duration without spending a spell slot? No. We're not allowed to prebuff charging those, they're simply automatically filled before each 3 fight cycle. Its a house rule to make them not totally useless here. Zevox
hogarth 03-29-07, 09:39 AM	ok another question- what is the vertical reach of a large creature (as in - up to the sky) i know it's not exacly as it's written in the SRD but i dont remmber what The consensus seems to be that a creature threatens the squares above it just as much as the squares on either side. So an ogre would be able to reach two squares above its head, and a horse would be able to reach one square above its head. Of course, then you get silly situations like a small viper that can bite an opponent floating 9' off of the ground, but you can't always have realism and simplicity at the same time.
templer10 03-29-07, 09:42 AM	The consensus seems to be that a creature threatens the squares above it just as much as the squares on either side. So an ogre would be able to reach two squares above its head, and a horse would be able to reach one square above its head. Of course, then you get silly situations like a small viper that can bite an opponent floating 9' off of the ground, but you can't always have realism and simplicity at the same time. so a large creature (10 feet) with a reach weapon can reach to creatures up to 20 feet above him = 30? btw- that concide with the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/jump.htm) - jsut want to make sure
McJarvis 03-29-07, 09:44 AM	No. We're not allowed to prebuff charging those, they're simply automatically filled before each 3 fight cycle. Its a house rule to make them not totally useless here. Zevox I don't understand-> We don't house-rule anything else to "make it not totally useless here"...(such as several prestige classes-> the metamind and the thrallherd, to be specific)? Why these?
templer10 03-29-07, 09:46 AM	I don't understand-> We don't house-rule anything else to "make it not totally useless here"...? Why these? cognizene crystal are psionic versions of pearls of power- making them charged every day simply equlize the playing field between psionic and magic.
hogarth 03-29-07, 10:05 AM	I don't understand-> We don't house-rule anything else to "make it not totally useless here"...(such as several prestige classes-> the metamind and the thrallherd, to be specific)? Why these? The Thrallherd is only moderately useless (not "totally useless") and the Metamind is totally useless by its inherent design, not because of the Core Coliseum's structure. :D
hogarth 03-29-07, 10:10 AM	so a large creature (10 feet) with a reach weapon can reach to creatures up to 20 feet above him = 30? btw- that concide with the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/jump.htm) - jsut want to make sure Try not to think of it in terms of "height in feet", but in terms of squares. An ogre with a longspear can attack targets that are in the 5th or 6th squares from ground level. An ogre with a greatclub can attack targets that are in the 3rd or 4th squares from ground level. A creature in the forest canopy would be in the 7th square above ground level so the ogre couldn't attack it without a vertical jump of 5'.
McJarvis 03-29-07, 10:14 AM	cognizene crystal are psionic versions of pearls of power- making them charged every day simply equlize the playing field between psionic and magic. No...if they were psionic versions of pearls of power they would "recover PP", not "store PP for later use". They are not pearls of power...except in how we treat them.
McJarvis 03-29-07, 10:14 AM	The Thrallherd is only moderately useless (not "totally useless") and the Metamind is totally useless by its inherent design, not because of the Core Coliseum's structure. :D Without its capstone ability & our rules regarding allies in fights I would indeed call it "totally worthless".(since leadership more or less does the exact same thing, hell- even diplomacy/handle animal can set you straight ally-wise...why would anyone want to be a thrallherd other than thematics?) Though on the metamind-> granted.
hogarth 03-29-07, 10:17 AM	Without its capstone ability & our rules regarding allies in fights I would call it "totally worthless". If Reginald Molehusband had failed his miniquest for a Leadership cohort, I would've considered making him a Thrallherd. You have the minor advantage of being able to dismiss thralls and believers between cycles and get new ones without having to go through a miniquest (as far as I know).
McJarvis 03-29-07, 10:26 AM	If Reginald Molehusband had failed his miniquest for a Leadership cohort, I would've considered making him a Thrallherd. You have the minor advantage of being able to dismiss thralls and believers whenever you want and get new ones without having to go through a miniquest (as far as I know). I wouldn't hold my breath on that one. Regardless, you would have had to spend credits to remove the leadership feat & take inquisitor instead, and even then you would have had to lose a level of manifesting power. =\ Other examples of things not good and/or useless in "our format" that we haven't fixed: Dwarven Defenders(lack of movement//non-casters suck in this environment) (not good) Whirlwind Attack(useless 99% of the time) Bards(?)(not good) Lowlight & Darkvision(useless) Cleave(useless 99% of the time) Great Cleave(useless 99.99% of the time) Etc, etc I don't understand why we would houserule something "just because" it is useless in CoCo when we don't decide to help out other things that genuinely don't fit in CoCo. This was pretty much what I was told when I was arguing for Thrallherds not be nerfed-> "It's not our job to change things so they work better, it's just our job to keep things that can be abused out" --- edit-> To be more constructive... We still haven't applied random modifiers to fights, even though the rules say we do. Randomly assigning Nighttime/Daylight/Twilight effects at ECL5+ & then assigning randomly Null magic/Wild magic/Regular magic areas(or planar effects) at ECL10+ would put things back in perspective a bit(for at least half of the laundry list I just gave), I think. Unless, of course, it "isn't our job" to make sure things are not useless in CoCo, in which case the Cog. Crystals shouldn't be house-ruled.
templer10 03-29-07, 10:31 AM	A creature in the forest canopy would be in the 7th square above ground level so the ogre couldn't attack it without a vertical jump of 5'. "The canopy is horizontaly impenetrable and at 30ft height. Medium and smaller creatures can walk through the thick canopy" the canopy is from 25 to 30 feat or from 30 to 35? becuase for you to be right it needs to be from 30 to 35.
McJarvis 03-29-07, 10:37 AM	"The canopy is horizontaly impenetrable and at 30ft height. Medium and smaller creatures can walk through the thick canopy" the canopy is from 25 to 30 feat or from 30 to 35? becuase for you to be right it needs to be from 30 to 35. I believe the canopy(rules wise) is a flat plane 30 ft up from the ground. Medium and smaller characters can walk "through it"(meaning to the top of it & on top of it). However, it essentially is all there is above 30ft, so you can't just "fly over it" Though my thoughts on this may be wrong. The Forest is a terribly complex map.
Zevox 03-29-07, 10:42 AM	@ McJarvis - Correcting a problem created by a house rule we instituted is different from correcting a problem created by the inherent format of coliseum-style combat. Cognizance Crystals were fine here until we instituted the 3 fight cycle, so we added a rule to allow them to continue to be fine. Things like Cleave, Whirlwind Attack, etc have always been less useful here just because 1-on-1 fights are the norm. To change that, you'd need to either rewrite the feat (not something we want to do) or switch to a multi-combatant norm (also not something we want to do). Similar things can be said about the Dwarven Defender, Bard, etc - they weren't designed for single combat such as we have, and thats why they're bad here. As for Thrallherds, we already have folks that think our current ally rules are unbalanced. Allowing them to have Thralls at 1 level below them would just be cause for people to shout "broken!" at the first Thrallherd we get. Same for if they were allowed to use two thralls at once come level 10. Thats just an issue of allies in our single-combat format. The only thing we could do to help them even indirectly was the suggestion of making Leadership less useful, and personally I think its stupid to nerf one thing just to make another more useful. Zevox
McJarvis 03-29-07, 10:44 AM	@ McJarvis - Correcting a problem created by a house rule we instituted is different from correcting a problem created by the inherent format of coliseum-style combat. Cognizance Crystals were fine here until we instituted the 3 fight cycle, so we added a rule to allow them to continue to be fine. Yet spells with multiple days duration are not allowed as a free-prebuff that doesn't take a spell slot? It's the exact same mechanic. and personally I think its stupid to nerf one thing just to make another more useful. Then why are we nerfing the thrallherd to make everything else more useful? Here's the thing-> Thrallherd is more or less useless right now because of a combination of two things: 1) The nerfing it received(so it is the same as leadership) 2) Diplomacy/Handle Animal being too accessible. Given these, there is no reason to dedicate yourself to a prestige class that removes your ability to multiclass//or benefit from other class features. I'm not saying we should just fling it out there in full force(ie-> the full control you have on leadership + extra power of cohorts), but we should at least give it a reason to exist. Here's just _one_ idea: Since you don't get to choose your thralls, just say players can customize their thralls perfectly, but they must be all NPC classes. Add in whatever kind of cap we want to put on including these guys in battles & the stats they'll have...and bam. Fixed. (while this may be way less powerful than Leadership, at least it is different and there is potential for you actually wanting it.)
hogarth 03-29-07, 10:50 AM	I wouldn't hold my breath on that one. Regardless, you would have had to spend credits to remove the leadership feat & take inquisitor instead, and even then you would have had to lose a level of manifesting power. =\ It was clarified that acquiring a thrall doesn't require a miniquest (it's a class ally with a specified method of acquiring one). Also, if the Leadership feat hadn't been "used" (as would be the case with an unsuccessful miniquest), then the change should be free. Losing a level of manifesting would hurt of course, but using allies as well as having lots of expendables and the willingness to use them is a fine substitute (cf. the Harvester).
Zevox 03-29-07, 10:54 AM	Yet spells with multiple days duration are not allowed as a free-prebuff that doesn't take a spell slot? It's the exact same mechanic. No, it isn't. The psion doesn't charge the crystal days in advance, its automatically charged for him. Thats not the same as casting spells days in advance. Besides, if they were allowed as such, you'd basically have free spells just by the nature of the spells! We've already tried to balance casters with the 3FC and 1/3 rule, we don't need to allow holes in those rules to give casters more spells than they already have. Then why are we nerfing the thrallherd to make everything else more useful? We're not. How can you think that? We're applying the same rules regarding allies across the board, the Thrallherd's abilities simply coincidentally don't fit within those rules. Nobody ever singled it out for nerfing, it just worked out that some of its abilities don't fit within our definition of balanced ally rules (and as I said, some even think our definition is unbalanced still). Zevox
templer10 03-29-07, 10:56 AM	just to make sure- armor check penaltys as a result from medium armor stack with Armor check penalties as a result from medium load right?
Zevox 03-29-07, 10:59 AM	just to make sure- armor check penaltys as a result from medium armor stack with Armor check penalties as a result from medium load right? Nope. If your character is wearing armor, use the worse figure (from armor or from load) for each category. Do not stack the penalties. Zevox
McJarvis 03-29-07, 11:04 AM	No, it isn't. The psion doesn't charge the crystal days in advance, its automatically charged for him. It's the exact same since the whole mechanic of the crystal in the first place is that you charge the crystal, then can use the PP you put in the crystal in the future. Spells with multiple day duractions(eg deeper darkness) are handled the exact same "in the field"-> you cast it one day, then go a couple days without storing it as a spell slot. Then you "recharge" your casting of it & keep going. I fail to see how it's difficult to see that these things are the same. We're not. How can you think that? Because we're taking what the thrallherd says(ie-> thrall is 1 level lower & you get a second at level 10) and we're nerfing that by restricting what you get from a class ability. There is no other example of us looking at a class ability & just saying "no, no...that won't work. Screw you, prestige class. We'll treat your class allies like leadership allies & thus restrict them even further"
Zevox 03-29-07, 11:21 AM	It's the exact same since the whole mechanic of the crystal in the first place is that you charge the crystal, then can use the PP you put in the crystal in the future. Spells with multiple day duractions(eg deeper darkness) are handled the exact same "in the field"-> you cast it one day, then go a couple days without storing it as a spell slot. Then you "recharge" your casting of it & keep going. I fail to see how it's difficult to see that these things are the same. Because the crystal isn't being charged in advance by the character. Its being automatically recharged each cycle. Basically, it recharges itself, just like a Pearl of Power does for a Wizard. And as I said, it would a foolish thing to allow casters free spells just because they have a long duration. Plus if you allow day/level spells for free, then at level 13+ you'll get casters wanting to get extended hour/level spells for free the same way. No way do I want casters getting Mage Armor, False Life, etc. without paying the price of a spell slot or scroll. Because we're taking what the thrallherd says(ie-> thrall is 1 level lower & you get a second at level 10) and we're nerfing that by restricting what you get from a class ability. There is no other example of us looking at a class ability & just saying "no, no...that won't work. Screw you, prestige class. We'll treat your class allies like leadership allies & thus restrict them even further" Again, nobody singled it out for thus. Its a by-product of our rules regarding allies being applied to leadership-like class allies to prevent long chains of leaders and cohorts (if we didn't do this, a leadership user could have a Thrallherd cohort who has his own Thrall who has a Thrall who etc etc; and you could get a Thaumaturgist with Leadership using both a Planar Cohort and a normal Cohort, and things like that - far better to have Thrallherds have thralls 2 levels below them so as to fit in the CA cap than to allow those). Plus theres again the whole thing with the general balance of allies overall which it has against it - its just a mess in general if we try to allow it without the current rules. And anyway, to be honest, I'm still far from convinced that the class is as useless as you claim. But we don't want to reopen that debate, do we? Zevox
McJarvis 03-29-07, 11:39 AM	Because the crystal isn't being charged in advance by the character. Its being automatically recharged each cycle. Basically, it recharges itself, just like a Pearl of Power does for a Wizard. My entire point was that we house-ruled it to be such, just because the crystals were made ineffective by the format of CoCo. Games where adventurers have to fight each and every single day would be the exact same kind of environment-> in any environment that did have circumstances under which you could recharge the PP of a Cog. Crystal, you could easily cast day-duration spells. Put it this way: Before the 3FC rules you could prebuff with spells with a 16-hour duration or longer without penalty. Now you can't.(thus making spells that last longer than a day useless in that facet) We houseruled the Cog. Crystals so their functionality was greater in CoCo's environment. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it-> There was no reason to do it other than it was there. (and functionally at the tabletop it is the same as letting casters prebuff with long duration spells) Again, nobody singled it out for thus. That is totally wrong. SOMEBODY had to single it out, or else it never would have been associated with leadership in the first place. We have lots of class allies(psicrystals, animal companions, familiars, etc) that are unrestricted by Max CA rules. This results in "druid farms" and whatnot, but we still allow it. Thrallherd's class abilty even blatently says the differences between it and leadership are important, thus nailing in the idea that these are class allies & not "just a feat". If the Thrallherd's ability was equivilent to Leadership, there would be no prestige class and instead a feat called "Thrallherder" that you could take with a few extra prereqs. RE: Allies having allies. I think Allies should never be able to have allies, just like they can't craft things for you. Regardless, Thrallherds don't get to choose their cohorts so they couldn't specify one with leadership or whatnot anyway.
Zevox 03-29-07, 11:51 AM	My entire point was that we house-ruled it to be such, just because the crystals were made ineffective by the format of CoCo. Games where adventurers have to fight each and every single day would be the exact same kind of environment-> in any environment that did have circumstances under which you could recharge the PP of a Cog. Crystal, you could easily cast day-duration spells. Put it this way: Before the 3FC rules you could prebuff with spells with a 16-hour duration or longer without penalty. Now you can't.(thus making spells that last longer than a day useless in that facet) We houseruled the Cog. Crystals so their functionality was greater in CoCo's environment. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it-> There was no reason to do it other than it was there. (and functionally at the tabletop it is the same as letting casters prebuff with long duration spells) In tabletop, if the cognizance crystal wasn't used in the day you charge it, it stays charged until you do use it. Here, nothing carries over between cycles, so except for the cycle right after where you buy it you wouldn't get any benefit from it at all if it. Thus the house rule. Nothing else I can think of would be 100% without use without such a house rule. Again, day/level spells are not the same thing. We do not want to give any spellcasters free spells. Hence the 3FC, hence no prebuffing day/level spells. Unlike cognizance crystals, these are not useless without allowing them for free, so we should not do so. The functionality in tabletop doesn't matter a lick - this isn't tabletop. As for Thrallherd, I'm done with that argument. I can't even see anything in that last response that I consider a point against the current rules for them, and cannot conceive of why you feel how you do about them, so we're just going to get nowhere there. Zevox
hogarth 03-29-07, 12:16 PM	Personally, I don't think it would be unreasonable to allow Thrallherd to exceed the max ally cap by 1 (by allowing them to bring in a full-strength thrall). But allowing a level 15 thrallherd to exceed the max ally cap by 14... :uh-huh:
McJarvis 03-29-07, 01:44 PM	Personally, I don't think it would be unreasonable to allow Thrallherd to exceed the max ally cap by 1 (by allowing them to bring in a full-strength thrall). But allowing a level 15 thrallherd to exceed the max ally cap by 14... :uh-huh: No need to make that decision until we're there, right? :)
TelinArtho 03-29-07, 01:55 PM	I wouldn't hold my breath on that one. Regardless, you would have had to spend credits to remove the leadership feat & take inquisitor instead, and even then you would have had to lose a level of manifesting power. =\ Other examples of things not good and/or useless in "our format" that we haven't fixed: Dwarven Defenders(lack of movement//non-casters suck in this environment) (not good) Whirlwind Attack(useless 99% of the time) Bards(?)(not good) Lowlight & Darkvision(useless) Cleave(useless 99% of the time) Great Cleave(useless 99.99% of the time) Etc, etc I don't understand why we would houserule something "just because" it is useless in CoCo when we don't decide to help out other things that genuinely don't fit in CoCo. This was pretty much what I was told when I was arguing for Thrallherds not be nerfed-> "It's not our job to change things so they work better, it's just our job to keep things that can be abused out" --- edit-> To be more constructive... We still haven't applied random modifiers to fights, even though the rules say we do. Randomly assigning Nighttime/Daylight/Twilight effects at ECL5+ & then assigning randomly Null magic/Wild magic/Regular magic areas(or planar effects) at ECL10+ would put things back in perspective a bit(for at least half of the laundry list I just gave), I think. Unless, of course, it "isn't our job" to make sure things are not useless in CoCo, in which case the Cog. Crystals shouldn't be house-ruled. I just wanted to comment on a few of the things above. 1. Cleave/Great Cleave/Whirlwind attack - these could be used to very good effect by warriors who are opposed by: a) summoners b) druids c) characters with farms of allies d) casters with Mirror Image! Since a common complaint is the extensiveness of the allies - I'm actually surprised it doesn't come up very often. Take Zax for instance - he's going to be bringing in at least 2, if not 3 or more animals/vermin for the rest of his career. Since they will have relatively low HP at the level they are faced - cleave would be very nasty against them. For warriors versus Mirror Image though - cleave and more especially great cleave can be a very nice thing to have. Granted you might not use it every fight - but the times you do use it - it can make a huge difference. The real reason why, in my opinion, we see few Cleave/Great Cleave or Whirlwind attack characters is the relative rarity of straight fighters. If the character is not a straight fighter - they simply don't have the number of feats left over to gain "secondary" use feats that are situational. 2. Lowlight and darkvision are currently useless - but I do believe we will be implementing lighting into the equation sooner rather than later, so don't give up on this yet.
McJarvis 03-29-07, 02:25 PM	I just wanted to comment on a few of the things above. 1. Cleave/Great Cleave/Whirlwind attack - these could be used to very good effect by warriors who are opposed by: a) summoners b) druids c) characters with farms of allies d) casters with Mirror Image! summoners/druids/allyfarms: Ultimately I think the reason no fighter would sport these feats to combat these types of character is they either depend on 1 hit kills or having all these allies in reach. On top of that, since you "win" when the caster goes down, you don't need the feats to help mop up afterwords. mirror image-> Everyone just closes their eyes, don't they? :) Since a common complaint is the extensiveness of the allies - I'm actually surprised it doesn't come up very often. I think the complaint is about allies being powerful, but not necessarily massive floods of allise being powerful... For warriors versus Mirror Image though - cleave and more especially great cleave can be a very nice thing to have. Granted you might not use it every fight - but the times you do use it - it can make a huge difference. Somehow I feel like taking a chain of feats to combat 1 spell isn't effective. The real reason why, in my opinion, we see few Cleave/Great Cleave or Whirlwind attack characters is the relative rarity of straight fighters. If the character is not a straight fighter - they simply don't have the number of feats left over to gain "secondary" use feats that are situational. There you go-> the one "fighter mainline" feat chain that I've seen work well is that Fell Shot archery feat chain. This is likely because it is difficult to base someone as a LA+0 character routinely enough to dedicate a bunch of feats to melee combat. (and if you think about it-> Fell Shot is alot like a spell in and of itself: Almost a warlock-ish kind of ability(AdB+C damage with a ranged touch attack) 2. Lowlight and darkvision are currently useless - but I do believe we will be implementing lighting into the equation sooner rather than later, so don't give up on this yet. I really hope so :) I like my idea of wild magic/null magic fields too, though this would really force most full-casters to get allies of some sort.
Zevox 03-29-07, 02:35 PM	For warriors versus Mirror Image though - cleave and more especially great cleave can be a very nice thing to have. Granted you might not use it every fight - but the times you do use it - it can make a huge difference. Cleave doesn't work vs mirror image. Take a look: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You don't deal damage to a mirror image, nor is it a creature, so it doesn't qualify. Zevox
TelinArtho 03-29-07, 02:37 PM	For cleave to be useful - I don't think you need to necessarily have 1-hit kills. In my opinion, just additional attacks can make a world of difference. And while we're talking about "a chain of feats" just remember that it is a pretty short chain. A fighter with power attack/improved sunder would not be terribly out of place by adding on cleave to help deal with drones (lesser summoned creatures or many allies of the opponent) and to help significantly to take down the mirror images of a caster. I guess its a matter of opinion. The only reason why I haven't had a character with cleave yet is purely because I haven't had a pure fighter with the power attack chain yet. That's not to say I won't (for example - Gulgar the Great might pick it up later on), and I'd say it is fairly likely I will eventually. @Zevox - pg 62 of the FAQ disagrees with you: Are the multiple figments from a mirror image spell legal targets for cleaving? [snip] If you have the Cleave or Great Cleave feats, destroying an image with a melee attack triggers the feat (and your cleaving attack might well strike the spell user instead of another image). Likewise you can use Whirlwind Attack to strike at any image you can reach. A Whirlwind Attack almost certainly will allow you to strike once at the spell user.
MindWandererB 03-29-07, 02:48 PM	For everyone's reference: the D&D site has had a great series on figuring out the area of effect of lines. It's geared toward the D&D minis game, but the rules work nearly as well for us. And it's actually in slight conflict with the way we've been handling it. I highly recommend checking it out.
McJarvis 03-29-07, 03:09 PM	When someone casts a spell with a range of personal & it has an area of effect, how do you determine which corner of their square is the center? Or do you treat each corner as the center?(thus it radiates out from them at a certain radius)
hogarth 03-29-07, 03:15 PM	When someone casts a spell with a range of personal & it has an area of effect, how do you determine which corner of their square is the center? Or do you treat each corner as the center?(thus it radiates out from them at a certain radius) There's only one spell like that I can find (Zone of Silence). In that case, it specifically says the "effect is centered on you", so I'd say it's centered on the centre of a square (for a Medium or smaller creature) or the centre intersection (for a Large creature).
McJarvis 03-29-07, 03:22 PM	There's only one spell like that I can find (Zone of Silence). In that case, it specifically says the "effect is centered on you", so I'd say it's centered on the centre of a square (for a Medium or smaller creature) or the centre intersection (for a Large creature). But area effects are always centered at an intersection of grid lines....?(I'm pretty sure Sauro told me that once, though I apologize if I'm misquoting him) Examples I'm thinking of: Antilife sphere AMF Silence Globe of Invulnerability Minor Glove of Invulnerability etc, etc. They can all be cast on a person/object instead of an intersection.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-29-07, 03:26 PM	For cleave to be useful - I don't think you need to necessarily have 1-hit kills. In my opinion, just additional attacks can make a world of difference. And while we're talking about "a chain of feats" just remember that it is a pretty short chain. A fighter with power attack/improved sunder would not be terribly out of place by adding on cleave to help deal with drones (lesser summoned creatures or many allies of the opponent) and to help significantly to take down the mirror images of a caster. I guess its a matter of opinion. The only reason why I haven't had a character with cleave yet is purely because I haven't had a pure fighter with the power attack chain yet. That's not to say I won't (for example - Gulgar the Great might pick it up later on), and I'd say it is fairly likely I will eventually. @Zevox - pg 62 of the FAQ disagrees with you: Krunch took cleave/great cleave. It worked great for him. Especially against a mage with mirror image. I remember the fight against the near-undefeated Balabanes. Chopped up all dem images good, den chopped him up good too. LOL Don't underestimate it's usefullness in CoCo. There are many allies out there floating around. If ur a melee combatant primarily and someone summons d3 huge evil critters, u'll be thankfull you took cleave, and more thankful you took great cleave. Once you had high bab and iterative attacks, u'll be a walking blade-barrier. ToK
hogarth 03-29-07, 03:32 PM	But area effects are always centered at an intersection of grid lines....?(I'm pretty sure Sauro told me that once, though I apologize if I'm misquoting him). The rules do say that. Just pick one of the intersections closest to the center or your character, I guess.
SauroGrenom 03-29-07, 03:35 PM	But area effects are always centered at an intersection of grid lines....?(I'm pretty sure Sauro told me that once, though I apologize if I'm misquoting him)I said that. It's in the SRD as well. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/magicOverview.html)
McJarvis 03-29-07, 03:44 PM	So you just get to arbitrarily pick a point that "at-least" "ties" for closest to your characters center? (not that I can think of any abuse of this-> just clarifying for my own head)
SauroGrenom 03-29-07, 03:49 PM	If your a medium sized character, you can pick any of the corners of your square. As a pitlord, I pick the one that's most advantageous for the player, and I don't require it to be the same one all the time either. If your large, its in your center. Same goes for Gargantuan. But Huge is treated like the medium character.
MindWandererB 03-29-07, 04:10 PM	If your large, its in your center. Same goes for Gargantuan. But Huge is treated like the medium character.Or rather, you should be able to choose any of the 4 points that surround your center. No picking one of your edges.
McJarvis 03-29-07, 04:12 PM	Or rather, you should be able to choose any of the 4 points that surround your center. No picking one of your edges. Nod...pick a corner of the guy you ate :)
hogarth 03-29-07, 04:42 PM	If a flying creature with average or worse maneuverability (and no Hover feat) gets dazed or stunned, does it fall? What about if it gets grappled or pinned?
TelinArtho 03-29-07, 04:45 PM	In most cases yes on both questions.
Macbrea 03-29-07, 05:00 PM	Each round a creature that is flying must maintain minimum forward flight speed. If at the end of it's turn it hasn't moved that distance it falls. So, if it is grappled and on it's turn it cannot travel that minimum distance it falls. If the grappler is able to hold on to the opponent then the flying creature doesn't fall. Because, the wieght must be held.
Maraxus 03-29-07, 05:06 PM	Dazed: Since the creature can still dodge incomming attacks normally, I'd say, that it can still do the basic stuff like flying straight, too. Stunned is more serious (and more complicated), the creature would definitly stop flapping with it's wings but then it would probably not fall like a stone, but glide to the ground.
MindWandererB 03-29-07, 05:22 PM	Dazed: Since the creature can still dodge incomming attacks normally, I'd say, that it can still do the basic stuff like flying straight, too. Stunned is more serious (and more complicated), the creature would definitly stop flapping with it's wings but then it would probably not fall like a stone, but glide to the ground. But again, these are only in question if it has no minimum forward speed. I think even a stunned creature with perfect maneuverability could stay aloft.
TelinArtho 03-29-07, 05:50 PM	Okay - just thinking aloud here... My current creation that I'm working on would start at ECL7: ECL7 Wyrmling Copper Dragon (5HD, +2 LA) ECL8 Wyrmling Copper Dragon (6HD, +2 LA) - Leadership: Wyrmling Brass Dragon (4HD, +2 LA) ECL9 Wyrmling Copper Dragon (7HD, +2 LA) - Leadership: Wyrmling Brass Dragon (5HD, +2 LA) ECL10 - SKIPPED ECL11 Very Young Copper Dragon (8HD, +3 LA) - Leadership: Wyrmling Brass Dragon (6HD, +2 LA) -- Can't go up to 7HD because that would also be an increase in LA... ECL12 Very Young Copper Dragon (9HD, +3 LA) - Leadership: Very Young Brass Dragon (7HD, +3 LA) or Wyrmling Bronze? ECL13 Very Young Copper Dragon (10HD, +3 LA) - Leadership: Very Young Brass Dragon (8HD, +3 LA) or Wyrmling Silver? ECL14 SKIPPED ECL15 Young Copper Dragon (11HD, +4 LA) - Leadership: Very Young Brass Dragon (9HD, +3 LA) -- again - can't advance to Young because of LA ECL16 Young Copper Dragon (12HD, +4 LA) - Leadership: Young Brass Dragon (10HD, +4 LA) ECL17 Young Copper Dragon (13HD, +4 LA) - Leadership: Young Brass Dragon (11HD, +4 LA) ECL18 Juvenile Copper Dragon (14HD, +4 LA) - Leadership: Young Brass Dragon (12HD, +4 LA) ECL19 Juvenile Copper Dragon (15HD, +4 LA) - Leadership: Juvenile Brass Dragon (13HD, +4 LA) ECL20 Juvenile Copper Dragon (16HD, +4 LA) - Leadership: Juvenile Brass Dragon (14HD, +4 LA) On second thought - a white dragon might work out better for my character's design...
SauroGrenom 03-29-07, 05:57 PM	Totally monster HD on a PC. Wow. You're brave, and confident. According to the monster encounter charts, this level is where the players can defeat an ancient brass dragon. I just don't see how a juvenile copper dragon with a juvenile brass dragon will defeat an ancient brass dragon who has 3 times the treasure of the younger dragons' combined.
TelinArtho 03-29-07, 06:01 PM	Totally monster HD on a PC. Wow. You're brave, and confident. According to the monster encounter charts, this level is where the players can defeat an ancient brass dragon. I just don't see how a juvenile copper dragon with a juvenile brass dragon will defeat an ancient brass dragon who has 3 times the treasure of the younger dragons' combined. That's not really an accurate assessment of the situation though: 36pt buy Juvenile Copper with 16HD and a 25pt buy Juvenile Brass with 14HD vs a 10-statted 31HD Ancient dragon. The money for the ancient is triple standard, but the number that it starts from is less than the money my dragons would have at that level (though since it is tripled, it would certainly exceed them on that note). I'm not saying it would be a walk in the park - but I'm also not necessarily building them to fight dragons that are 800+ years their senior...
Macbrea 03-29-07, 06:09 PM	Ok, so you know what your going to have a problem with: Wyrmling copper dragons are tiny. As a result if you have to goto melee your pretty much just using your bite or having to enter their square each time. Dragons as a whole don't have that great of stat line. They do on the other hand have excellent skills, HD and BAB. They can stand up on their own HD. White dragons aren't very powerful no matter what you do with them. The average gladiator of those levels can take them. I would stay with copper to be unique.
TelinArtho 03-29-07, 06:11 PM	oh - no copper is set in stone at this point. I was talking about white as the cohort dragon. However, looking into it further I decided against it anyway - back to Brass...
SauroGrenom 03-29-07, 06:20 PM	I see your point, but at ECL20, most of the supernatural abilities of a dragon are outclassed. Your breath weapon save DC is a bit too low to be consistently useful at that level. Your not old enough for the special abilities, and your casting as a 3rd level sorcerer. Basicially your a melee warrior with fantastic movement speeds, a host of natural attacks, a decent AC and good saves. But you cannot use weapons, so no iterative attacks or ranged attacks. Your caster level is really low, so you'll be relying on scrolls or wands for most of your spells. And your HD is kind of low for your level, so your susceptible to spells that others at this level are not worried about. Perhaps you can make it work as a melee alpha strike build. Get the psionic feats for psionic strike and greater psionic strike. I'd make the primary character a gold dragon. The ECL is higher to get started, but you get to be large size. That makes a difference in that you get additional natural attacks and more damage and better options for grappling and carrying stuff. Also you get the alternate form, that allows you to use weapons. Or your ally can use alternate form and ride on you.
Macbrea 03-29-07, 06:28 PM	I would never mix the copper and white dragons anyways. Astetics wise.. but, I am odd like that. If your building them to be a matched pair then brass is your best bet.. Or wait one level and take another copper dragon.
Yitzi 03-29-07, 06:29 PM	Ive seen the term "base", as in to base an enemy, a number of times in tactics, and I'm wondering what it means. So if anyone would care to enlighten me?
SauroGrenom 03-29-07, 06:30 PM	Ive seen the term "base", as in to base an enemy, a number of times in tactics, and I'm wondering what it means. So if anyone would care to enlighten me?That means to occupy a square adjacent to your opponent.
TelinArtho 03-29-07, 06:31 PM	Well, you won't see me picking up the psionic feats - that is for sure. Like I said - I'm just trying it out - tossing it about for a while. I've had a lot of character concepts - only a select few (22...) have made it to posting here, and only some of them (20...) have actually been active at any given time... Breath weapon DC is looking like 10+8 (16 HD)+8 (26 con)+2 (Ability Focus) = 28. So Reflex DC28 or 8d4 damage or Fortitude DC28 or 1d6+4 rounds of slow. I have no doubt that he'd be relying on wands though. Just to start the character at ECL7, I'd be looking at 30 credits in wands alone... Later on he'd boost up to staves probably though.
Vathelokai 03-29-07, 06:53 PM	Ive seen the term "base", as in to base an enemy, a number of times in tactics, and I'm wondering what it means. So if anyone would care to enlighten me? That means to occupy a square adjacent to your opponent. As in, "to have the bases of both minatures touching."
NiQil 03-30-07, 12:38 AM	I find it amusing that we are running so many miniquests nowadays that threads that used to always be on the front page are now getting scrolled off (i.e. Training Hall, Council, guild threads, etc).
Vathelokai 03-30-07, 12:46 AM	I find it amusing that we are running so many miniquests nowadays that threads that used to always be on the front page are now getting scrolled off (i.e. Training Hall, Council, guild threads, etc). Noticed that myself. Between the guild missions and the allies quests....:doh: @Sauro: Updated my post in 'the beast within'.
Zevox 03-30-07, 01:05 AM	Actually, only 2 of this week's MQs are Guild ops, an only 1 for an ally. We've also got two to join a Guild and three to qualify for a PrC (plus one separate thread fight, but being as one of the PrC MQs was resolved as a fight they cancel out). Also, if anybody would care to give an opinion or two - my up and coming Warmind, Arden, leveled up this week, taking his second fighter level (from here he goes straight warmind). I have planned to have him take Improved Disarm as his bonus feat, but I'm not so sure its worth it, especially since he can always nab the Sundering enhancement on one of his weapons to do the main thing I wanted to do with it (eliminate wands/dorjes). But what other feat would be worth grabbing for him? Nothing's jumping out at me. Knockdown, Blindfight, and Quickdraw are all generally useful. Power Attack might be worth nabbing, since he can trip and use that for extra damage vs the lower-AC foe. And of course dodge is a nice +1 AC and opens the option of Psionic Dodge for another +1 later on. But these all seem to be of only limited use - much like Improved Disarm itself... Zevox
Rauul 03-30-07, 01:15 AM	I find it amusing that we are running so many miniquests nowadays that threads that used to always be on the front page are now getting scrolled off (i.e. Training Hall, Council, guild threads, etc). I have no problems with this acually.. the arena is ok but sometimes you just wanna kill or be killed by a NPC.. hence why i like the ideas of Quests and Campains (Ever noticed that D&D wasn't designed to be PVP but was designed to be a party vs Monsters on quests and campains)
Erithmu 03-30-07, 01:20 AM	But what other feat would be worth grabbing for him? Nothing's jumping out at me. Knockdown, Blindfight, and Quickdraw are all generally useful. Power Attack might be worth nabbing, since he can trip and use that for extra damage vs the lower-AC foe. And of course dodge is a nice +1 AC and opens the option of Psionic Dodge for another +1 later on. But these all seem to be of only limited use - much like Improved Disarm itself... ZevoxDeep Impact + Power Attack, not sure what your upper level feats are, but I know that combo to be nasty.
Zevox 03-30-07, 01:28 AM	Deep Impact + Power Attack, not sure what your upper level feats are, but I know that combo to be nasty. Aye, sounds nasty indeed, but his level 9 and 12 feats are locked in. Empower Power and Expanded Knowledge (Energy Missile). Maybe I'll take it just as a "looking towards the future" thing, then grab Deep Impact at level 15. Hm... Zevox
Hirumajoe 03-30-07, 08:14 AM	Basicially your a melee warrior with fantastic movement speeds, a host of natural attacks, a decent AC and good saves. But you cannot use weapons, so no iterative attacks or ranged attacks. Your caster level is really low, so you'll be relying on scrolls or wands for most of your spells. And your HD is kind of low for your level, so your susceptible to spells that others at this level are not worried about. You can always make iterative attacks. Unarmed. If he grabs Improved Unarmed Strike, he can even deal lethal damage. Although arguably his natural attacks are probably better as is.
hogarth 03-30-07, 08:29 AM	You can always make iterative attacks. Unarmed. If he grabs Improved Unarmed Strike, he can even deal lethal damage. Although arguably his natural attacks are probably better as is. Armor spikes are always a possibility for iterative attacks, too.
Hirumajoe 03-30-07, 11:05 AM	Out of curiosity, how do people usually determine the hardness and hit points of objects for which there are no listing? And how about magic items? I've seen it come up a few times but I don't think I've ever seen the hit points/hardness listed. What is the hardness, hit points and size of a quiver of Ehlonna? Could you pay 1000gp and have one made out of Mithril? Could you get one made out of adamantine? (Given that its using extra dimensional magic, I don't see why it needs to be made out of flexible leather. A hollow metal cylinder with a cap on one end should work). Also, how does one need to secure a quiver for it to be considered "well secured"? Can you use rope to make it "well secured"? (And say the use rope skill?) Similarly, whats the hardness and hit points and size of a silver holy symbol? If I'd had to guess I'd say 15 hitpoints, 8 hardness and fine size. I figure 1 lb of silver (0.45 Kg) is roughly 1.5" by 1.5" by 1.5" (if it were a cube). Silver has a specific gravity of 10.5g/cm^3. Alchemical silver has 10 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 8. Since its less than 2" in all dimensions it should be fine sized.
McJarvis 03-30-07, 11:22 AM	/me ponders. If the FAQ clarified that something that isn't a creature(mirror image) can trigger cleave attempts, then why not use it for sundering purposes too? Adamantine whatever weapon with huge + damage mods...plus greater cleave == sundering everything the person is wearing in one round. :D
Hirumajoe 03-30-07, 11:33 AM	Actually, that would definitely work on an intelligent magic items. Since intelligent magic items are constructs. So if you're enemy is wearing a bunch of intelligent magic items to avoid a Mordenkinen's Disjunction, you technically can Great Cleave all his intelligent items in a single round. Even without FAQ clarification.
TheMagister 03-30-07, 11:42 AM	I always liked the Sundering Cleave feat in one of the Complete books. There's just something awesome 'bout that. TM
hogarth 03-30-07, 11:45 AM	Similarly, whats the hardness and hit points and size of a silver holy symbol? If I'd had to guess I'd say 15 hitpoints, 8 hardness and fine size. Wow...a two-handed sword only has 10 hit points! I'd say a holy symbol would be more comparable to a "light blade" like a 1 lb. dagger (i.e. 10 hardness, 2 hp).
TelinArtho 03-30-07, 11:50 AM	Bear in mind that while nastily sturdy by one dimension - a sword is easily broken along the flat of the blade (well - comparatively anyway). A holy symbol is a small sized thing and has a significant weight to it - so I would guess an inch thick is not out of the question. I would disagree with it being only 1/5th of an inch thick and would certainly say it is thicker than a dagger or sword.
Hirumajoe 03-30-07, 11:51 AM	I always liked the Sundering Cleave feat in one of the Complete books. There's just something awesome 'bout that. TM I remember that one. Combat Brute. It was a tactical feat. I always wanted to combine that with Shock Trooper on a Human Fighter/Wizard/Eldritch Knight. Nothing like casting True strike, charging in, taking a Full BAB penalty for Power attack, applying it to AC instead of to-hit, then Sundering Cleaving their weapon and then them. I mean, who cares if your AC is 0 when they just lost their weapon. Plus you get a x3 damage multiplier on the next round when you power attack again with a two-handed weapon...
hogarth 03-30-07, 12:05 PM	A holy symbol is a small sized thing and has a significant weight to it - so I would guess an inch thick is not out of the question. I would disagree with it being only 1/5th of an inch thick and would certainly say it is thicker than a dagger or sword. Why would a 1 lb holy symbol necessarily be thicker than a 1 lb dagger? (Unless you worship the god of Ball Bearings, of course. ;))
TelinArtho 03-30-07, 12:10 PM	Because I'm assuming that you aren't worshipping the god of Surfboards... Bear in mind the blade of the dagger is not the entire weight of the dagger (hilt takes up some weight) - whereas the holy symbol is the entire holy symbol.
Tellish_of_Ket 03-30-07, 12:13 PM	Without a precedent to go by, it will be a judgement call. For the purposes of this fight, it will be assumed a small object, one inch thickness with hardness 8, HP 10, as per description in special materials. That is actually, imho, completely fair. Which is why Jur has FIFTEEN holy symbols sewn across his chest. Good luck sundering them all. But then again, he's currently getting res'd with FIFTEEN arrows across his chest too, lol. ToK
Hirumajoe 03-30-07, 12:13 PM	Why would a 1 lb holy symbol necessarily be thicker than a 1 lb dagger? (Unless you worship the god of Ball Bearings, of course. ;)) Because a dagger is designed to have a long thin section designed to cut, while presumably the holy symbol is not that sharp? If it is as thin as a dagger, then it probably should have a 1d4 damage rating, given that its the same weight... But yeah, most combat daggers (i.e. a knife designed for combat) are much longer than most crosses hanging around people's necks I've seen. Edit: So anyone have an opinion on the hit points and hardness of a magical efficient quiver? Just for future reference?
hogarth 03-30-07, 12:40 PM	Bear in mind the blade of the dagger is not the entire weight of the dagger (hilt takes up some weight) - whereas the holy symbol is the entire holy symbol. Buh? I don't know what this sentence means. Presumably a holy symbol is broken even if you just slice a piece off -- you don't need to mince it into silver filings, I imagine. I guess I'm just having a hard time wrapping my mind around a 1 lb crucifix that's as tough as a 4 lb light mace (except maybe if it's one big chunk of silver, like the symbol of Rubix, god of cubes).
TelinArtho 03-30-07, 12:52 PM	Buh? I don't know what this sentence means. Presumably a holy symbol is broken even if you just slice a piece off -- you don't need to mince it into silver filings, I imagine. I guess I'm just having a hard time wrapping my mind around a 1 lb crucifix that's as tough as a 4 lb light mace (except maybe if it's one big chunk of silver, like the symbol of Rubix, god of cubes). Depends on what level of damage you think you need to deal to a holy symbol to "sunder it". Just whittling off a silver shaving wouldn't be enough in my opinion. Still 1lb silver crucifix around someone's neck is still going to be much thicker than the blade of a dagger. Instead of a full inch - how about 3/4s or even half? Now take that the Denthian symbol isn't a crucifix, but rather a circular symbol with a thicker ring around the outside and in the middle, but the vastness of the rest of it would be thinner - and I think an inch thick isn't too out of the question.
Hirumajoe 03-30-07, 12:58 PM	Buh? I don't know what this sentence means. Presumably a holy symbol is broken even if you just slice a piece off -- you don't need to mince it into silver filings, I imagine. I guess I'm just having a hard time wrapping my mind around a 1 lb crucifix that's as tough as a 4 lb light mace (except maybe if it's one big chunk of silver, like the symbol of Rubix, god of cubes). I don't know about that (the sliver part). Does that imply for a holy symbol to work it has to be absolutely perfect? I mean, for a Chaotic deity I would imagine a misformed, badly worn holy symbol would work even better (entropy and all that...). As long as the symbol is basically recognizable (the symbolism part), it should work. Actually that brings up a great question: Does a sundered holy symbol not work? Its not like its providing AC or being used to whack someone. It purely symbolic. Its representing a connection to your deity. So if you hold two pieces of a cross together if broken in two, does it still work? If you glued it back together with Sovern glue would it work? (And if so, why doesn't just holding the pieces together properly not work?) And if not, I need to invent a deity whose holy symbol is an already sundered block of silver. Chaotic of course. That way, when it gets sundered again, nothing happens. :D
Erithmu 03-30-07, 01:03 PM	Next Cleric I make is going to have a suit of full plate as its holy symbol.
hogarth 03-30-07, 01:04 PM	And if not, I need to invent a deity whose holy symbol is an already sundered block of silver. Chaotic of course. That way, when it gets sundered again, nothing happens. :D In fact, the more you sunder it, the holier it gets! :angel:
Hirumajoe 03-30-07, 01:25 PM	So how does this sound. Half-Giant Cleric. Strength and Madness domains. Chaotic Neutral. Holy symbol is a sundered block of metal (silver). Weapon of Choice is the Greatsword. Go half and half Fighter/Cleric as you level. Take all the feat chains that benefit from large size. Power attack/Sunder, Improved Unarmed Attack/Improved Grapple, Expertise/Improved Trip. Lets see, at ECL 10 you'd be +7 BAB (4 Fighter 4, 3 Cleric 5) have 8 feats and 3rd level spells. And could cast Enlarge Person as a domain spell (plus from scrolls and pearls of power). Might be fun. Str: 18 (10) Dex: 13 (8) Con: 16 (6) Int: 14 (6) Wis: 14 (6) Cha: 8 (0) ECL 2: Fighter 1 - Power Attack, Improved Sunder ECL 3: F1/C1 - Improved Unarmed Strike ECL 4: F2/C1 - Improved Grapple ECL 5: F2/C2 - +1 to Dex ECL 6: F2/C3 - ECL 7: F3/C3 - Combat Expertise ECL 8: F4/C3 - Craft Wonderous Item ECL 9: F4/C4 - +1 to Wis ECL 10: F4/C5 - Improved Trip (17 equivalent Wisdom due to Madness) Thoughts?
hogarth 03-30-07, 01:27 PM	Enlarge PERSON doesn't work on a half-GIANT.
McJarvis 03-30-07, 01:31 PM	Yes: No matter how friendly they may seem, just remember that giants are NOT people. :)
Hirumajoe 03-30-07, 01:31 PM	Enlarge PERSON doesn't work on a half-GIANT. Grr. Excellent point. So I guess 1/2 Psychic Warrior and 1/2 Cleric? To grab expansion? I guess you could do 4 levels of Psychic Warrior, grab War instead of strength (to get a free feat...) Although, how does Madness domain interact with psionics? Since you add your madness modifier for spellcasting... Does Psionics count as "spell casting" in that sense?
TheMagister 03-30-07, 01:32 PM	...and the BAB suffers.
Hirumajoe 03-30-07, 01:46 PM	...and the BAB suffers. Well, the BAB was already suffering from the Half-Giant-ness. It would drop it to +6 at ECL 10 which is kinda low though. Hmm... Maybe just a Human Barbarian/Fighter/Cleric with Strength and Madness domains? S: 16 (10) D: 14 (6) C: 16 (10) I: 12 (4) W: 14 (6) C: 8 (0) ECL 1: B1 - Power Attack, Improved Sunder ECL 2: B1/C1 ECL 3: B1/F1/C1 - Improved Unarmed Strike, Deflect Arrows ECL 4: B1/F2/C1 - Improved Grapple, +1 Int ECL 5: B1/F2/C2 ECL 6: B1/F2/C3 - Craft Wonderous Item (for Pearls of Power) ECL 7: B1/F2/C4 ECL 8: B1/F2/C5 ECL 9: B2/F2/C5 - Combat Expertise and Uncanny Dodge (Uncanny Dodge + Deflect Arrows = win vs snipers) ECL 10: B2/F2/C6 So you don't get the built in extra large stuff, but you do get a better BAB and can use Enlarge Person. And you also get the 10' speed and 1/day rage for those emergency situations.
Abyssal Stalker 03-30-07, 01:48 PM	What was the ruling on casting spells in conditions that you can't see in? Can a blinc character cast spells, as she has no LoS?
Hirumajoe 03-30-07, 01:54 PM	What was the ruling on casting spells in conditions that you can't see in? Can a blinc character cast spells, as she has no LoS? Depends on the spell. I believe physical contact allows you to cast spells even if you can't see, so you can certainly cast spells on yourself or someone you can touch (i.e. touch spells). You can also always blindly aim ray type spells with the usual 50% miss chance assuming you're aiming at the right square.
hogarth 03-30-07, 02:00 PM	Depends on the spell. I believe physical contact allows you to cast spells even if you can't see, so you can certainly cast spells on yourself or someone you can touch (i.e. touch spells). It says "You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target." So if you flail around your arms and locate your opponent by touch, you can target them (I think).
TheMagister 03-30-07, 02:02 PM	It says "You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target." So if you flail around your arms and locate your opponent by touch, you can target them (I think). You think right. In other news: LUNCHTIME!! Oh, sweet, sweet sustenance! {Mexican food - Yum...}
hogarth 03-30-07, 02:03 PM	You think right. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. ;)
McJarvis 03-30-07, 02:29 PM	Can you hide in a cloak dance, or is it considered to be like "blur"?
TheMagister 03-30-07, 03:00 PM	Like blur. After all, if they pinpoint the cloak, and you're wearing the cloak...
Hirumajoe 03-30-07, 03:03 PM	Ok, I did it. I've created an entropy worshiping character. Holy symbol is a sundered block of silver. She can be found here. If you've read God stalk or the related books, you'll understand where the name comes from...
sonofzeal 03-30-07, 08:03 PM	IMO, the route to go for a sunderer is sundering as part of a Spirited Charge. Dude could smash through adamantine. ^^
McJarvis 03-30-07, 11:27 PM	Like blur. After all, if they pinpoint the cloak, and you're wearing the cloak... I was envisioning the cloaker to be throwing the cloak over the head of his opponent & making his opponent look away. (I mean...along with other things, like using his psionic talents(since it's a psionic feat) to augment his hiding) I still don't agree with that "you can't hide in a blur" ruling, though. In *my* imagination, blur has a similar effect to chameleon...blurring your outline with everything around you.
Rauul 03-30-07, 11:30 PM	how often does Cat do the black market... (first time i have ever used it, and would like to get corrupter in the arena)
MindWandererB 03-30-07, 11:35 PM	how often does Cat do the black market... (first time i have ever used it, and would like to get corrupter in the arena) Typically, he does it every week, but he obviously has other things on his mind these days.
Vathelokai 03-31-07, 01:28 AM	Oops... nevermind.
hogarth 03-31-07, 02:42 PM	When I try to open the "Fights of Gladius" thread in the archive (http://boards1.wizards.com/archive/index.php/t-69954.html), I just get a blank page. I presume that this is the same thing that happened to me in the past with the Battles of Gladius thread, but unfortunately it doesn't look like there's an option to reduce the number of posts per page displayed in an archive thread. Does anyone else have this problem?
TelinArtho 03-31-07, 03:34 PM	I've mentioned this issue to Cat via PM before. I think his goal is to get them moved out of the archive - but I haven't heard back from him about it.
hogarth 03-31-07, 03:39 PM	I've mentioned this issue to Cat via PM before. I think his goal is to get them moved out of the archive - but I haven't heard back from him about it. Actually, the thread is out of the archive. I can see it fine here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=69954 That was a terrible example. Here's my real problem -- I was going through one of my characters (doing an audit) and I tried to bring up an old fight as I had linked it: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10109649 which automatically redirects to the archive thread: http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-568128 Unfortunately, I can't view that archive thread (#568128 -- maybe "Battles of Gladius II").
TheMagister 03-31-07, 06:15 PM	Not too powerful, just something nice for a trip build to have. Boots of Stability: These boots impart a dwarf-like connection to good old terra-firma, providing a +4 bonus to resist any attempt to bull rush, trip, or overrun the wearer. Faint Psychometabolism; ML 7th; Craft Universal Item, [i]immovability; Price: ???? I'm thinking that 1,600 sounds about right (4*4*100) by multiplying the bonus by itself and then by 100. It's a situational modifier, and useful only for defense. I'll be the first to admit that I'm no magic item expert, but this doesn't strike me as "OMGWTF?" like that skin of the duergar one did. :D Thoughts? TM
NiQil 03-31-07, 06:24 PM	Not too powerful, just something nice for a trip build to have. Boots of Stability: These boots impart a dwarf-like connection to good old terra-firma, providing a +4 bonus to resist any attempt to bull rush, trip, or overrun the wearer. Faint Psychometabolism; ML 7th; Craft Universal Item, [i]immovability; Price: ???? I'm thinking that 1,600 sounds about right (4*4*100) by multiplying the bonus by itself and then by 100. It's a situational modifier, and useful only for defense. I'll be the first to admit that I'm no magic item expert, but this doesn't strike me as "OMGWTF?" like that skin of the duergar one did. :D Thoughts? TM OMFGWTF??????? Are you kidding me? Sorry...couldn't resist.
Rauul 03-31-07, 07:53 PM	Not too powerful, just something nice for a trip build to have. Boots of Stability: These boots impart a dwarf-like connection to good old terra-firma, providing a +4 bonus to resist any attempt to bull rush, trip, or overrun the wearer. Faint Psychometabolism; ML 7th; Craft Universal Item, [i]immovability; Price: ???? I'm thinking that 1,600 sounds about right (4*4*100) by multiplying the bonus by itself and then by 100. It's a situational modifier, and useful only for defense. I'll be the first to admit that I'm no magic item expert, but this doesn't strike me as "OMGWTF?" like that skin of the duergar one did. :D Thoughts? TM you talking a continuous, or one you have to activate.. because continuous by the magic creation chart comes up to 128,000 gp 4*4*2000*4 (last x4 is because it's a concentration use power so therefore uses the per round multiplyer) If activated with 50 charges 3/day, activated as a Standard action, Duration is Concentration or 1 rd 4*4*1800*0.6*0.5= 8640
MindWandererB 03-31-07, 07:57 PM	you talking a continuous, or one you have to activate.. because continuous by the magic creation chart comes up to 128,000 gp 4*4*2000*4 (last x4 is because it's a concentration use power so therefore uses the per round multiplyer) If activated with 50 charges 3/day, activated as a Standard action, Duration is Concentration or 1 rd 4*4*1800*0.6*0.5= 8640 That would be it it were a 4th-level spell cast by a 4th-level caster. It's not--"bonus" items like this are different. Plus, I don't think you can combine X/day with X charges.
hogarth 03-31-07, 08:11 PM	That would be it it were a 4th-level spell cast by a 4th-level caster. It's not--"bonus" items like this are different. Plus, I don't think you can combine X/day with X charges. Caterane has approved items like that before; Reginald's "Ring of the Cloaker" and "Ring of the Remorhaz" work that way.
NiQil 03-31-07, 08:24 PM	So I was tossing around the idea of making my first ever <gasp> wizard, and thought I might pick everyone's brains for ideas and the like. I've never played a wizard here or in a TT game, though I have played sorcerers, warlocks and warmages. I tend to favor the melee side of the game (as if you all didn't know that already), so they are rarely an avenue I examine. At first blush, I am guessing that a generalist would probably be good for the first time out...beyond that it's anybody's guess. Blaster types are fun for me...and I was also thinking about a summoner...but figured I would toss it out and see what the experts had to say.
Zevox 03-31-07, 08:38 PM	Generalist? You mean a wizard without a specialized school? Not that great an idea in this environment. The loss of schools of spells is well worth the extra spell levels with our limits on castings, particularly since wizards are already so versatile. Fewer spell levels means fewer spells per fight unless you invest heavily in expendables, which I know you hate doing, and with fewer spells per fight you have fewer chances to down your opponent before being forced to resort to things like crossbows or quarterstaves. Strangely, blaster wizards don't seem to do so hot around here either. Magic Missiles, especially from wands, rock, but other blaster spells seem not to be so effective in the long run. Take a look at the arena evoker, Macbrea's Relanex - hes hovering just above failure level. Its the save-or-dies that generally make a wizard good in the CoCo environment - Sleep, Hold Person, Black Tentacles, Magic Jar, those sorts of things. Doing a summoner can definitely work though. Its not easy at low levels, when you're looking at those allies only being around for a few attacks and few if any being able to overcome warding by a Protection from Evil/Good spell, but it can definitely be done. Zevox
McJarvis 03-31-07, 08:44 PM	Note that Necromancy and Enchantment are your two schools most of the save-or-die spells come from, so if you want to completely pigeonhole your character than take those as your opposed schools. <_< >_> As far as non-"save or die" wizards go, I'm still trying to feel my way around with TAG.
Rauul 03-31-07, 08:47 PM	That would be it it were a 4th-level spell cast by a 4th-level caster. It's not--"bonus" items like this are different. Plus, I don't think you can combine X/day with X charges. ring of the ram also works this way (Standard D&D item)
Vathelokai 03-31-07, 10:35 PM	So I was tossing around the idea of making my first ever <gasp> wizard, and thought I might pick everyone's brains for ideas and the like. I've never played a wizard here or in a TT game, though I have played sorcerers, warlocks and warmages. I tend to favor the melee side of the game (as if you all didn't know that already), so they are rarely an avenue I examine. At first blush, I am guessing that a generalist would probably be good for the first time out...beyond that it's anybody's guess. Blaster types are fun for me...and I was also thinking about a summoner...but figured I would toss it out and see what the experts had to say.That was pretty close to my idea with Auburn. Non-specialist summoner. She has a 50/50 win record, but she becomes less viable over time it seems. Also, if you are not a specialist you end up using a lot of expendables to make up for those extra spell slots you don't get. Build wise, the best combo is to be a divination specialist and take enchantment as the banned school. You gain an extra spell per level, and all you loose (at low levels) is hideous laugh and sleep. If you wan't you special school to be something more damage oriented, then conjuration or evocation can work. Conjuration has less attack spells, but they bypass SR. Evocation gets the force spells. When picking banned schools for those, pick one of (enchantment or necromancy {the save or dies}) and/or one from (evocation or conjuration {attacks}) and/or one from (transmutation or illusion {buffs}). For blaster types you will probably need the craft wand feat. They arn't bad as expendables go. If you're killing your opponent with 5 magic missles, they you'll be out of attack spells by fight 2. For summoners, I think clerics are the way to go. Neutral clerics can get away with summoning most things. If you wan't to try the wizard summoner, keep in mind that prot evil will keep you from summoning effective things until you are higher level, and at higher level, the high HP and armor makes most summons less effective. As a side note: to me there are summoners and conjurers. Summoners take augment summon as a feat and cast summon monster. Conjurers cast lots of acid arrows, grease, black tentacles and cloudkills. But I digress. From the Unearthed stuff: The battle sorcerer is as close as you get to a warmage. With the right equipment backup it could be really hoss. The rapid summoner conjuration specialists have potential. The enchanter specialsts can get a cohort instead of a familiar. The evoker specialist "bypass energy resistance" power looks good, but it is x/day which dosn't work too well here. The necromancer can get an ever improving skeleton instead of a familiar. Successfull wizards have a couple things in common. Mobility: casting expid retreat in every fight kind of works, but not nearly as well as casting from a double moving mount. Outsider wizards take a LA, but they can alter self into a mephit at low levels. Options: they tend to have one scroll of everything - just in case. And casting long acting buffs like animate dead or mage armor from a scroll saves you a spell slot. Cheese: most of them have an item or two that exceeds the CL limit on items, or a custom wand/staff. If you want to win at all costs, grab that wand of MM9 at ECL3. Leveling up: If you want a prestige class, then you have to get on it early. For most wizards, you have to devote many feats and gather specific spells. If you're headed past 5th level, then have a plan. Equipment All casters need stat boosters. No iff ands or buts. That headband of int gives you 1-2 extra spells per day, and boosts your DCs as a bonus. Pearls of power: since there is no xp cost, you can buy a bunch of PoP1 and when you need the cash later for a stronger magic item, sell them back at cost. There's rarely a reason for your wizard to have more than 500gp laying around. Rods: rod of silence is nessicary for the sneaky mage. Rod of still spell is nessicary if you want to survive a grapple. Rod of extend will make some of your buffs last the full 3FC. Heal potions: over rated. Wizards don't have the hp to stay alive while they try to drink them. Keep one for emergencies. TAO keeps an Archives post over at the guild with some interesting trivia. Could spark some ideas. Well, that was fun, but my brain is empty now. You got questions; I gots answers.
hogarth 03-31-07, 10:46 PM	Successfull wizards have a couple things in common. Mobility: casting expid retreat in every fight kind of works, but not nearly as well as casting from a double moving mount. Outsider wizards take a LA, but they can alter self into a mephit at low levels. I'll agree with this -- if you're willing to go against your principles and buy a horse, that'll help your survivability a lot at low levels. Of course that applies for any 3rd level character, but it goes double for the weaker classes.
NiQil 03-31-07, 11:37 PM	:::waves hello at the Shadow lurking in the back:::
Vathelokai 03-31-07, 11:47 PM	Shadow's here :eek: :D Welcome by. Hopes it's not a business trip.
NiQil 04-01-07, 12:16 AM	Shadow's here :eek: :D Welcome by. Hopes it's not a business trip. No kidding...especially when I saw Shadow was reading the Iron Man threads... BTW, for those keeping score....I've altered my approach slightly...since wizards are generally considered in the top 3 as far as power go, and I know that no one has tried one of these in a while...I'm gonna make a sorcerer instead. Nice little buffed up blaster who wields lots of wants. Want to see if I can make a sorcerer viable in this environment, contrary to popular opinion.
Zevox 04-01-07, 12:27 AM	BTW, for those keeping score....I've altered my approach slightly...since wizards are generally considered in the top 3 as far as power go, and I know that no one has tried one of these in a while...I'm gonna make a sorcerer instead. Nice little buffed up blaster who wields lots of wants. Want to see if I can make a sorcerer viable in this environment, contrary to popular opinion. Since when has popular opinion been that Sorcerers aren't viable here? I thought that one went away with the 3FC. I mean, we've got a Great Reknown level 10 Sorcerer in Leif Goldeneye, a Great Reknown Battle Sorcerer in TIM, and a Paladin/Sorcerer with a good record (might be Great Reknown if not for a couple of losses mostly due to the dice) in Mithos Durrol. Sorcerers are less popular than Wizards (lack of free feats, slower gain of higher-level spells, and the low number of spells they obtain meaning crafting isn't viable for them are probably why), but they're certainly viable. Zevox
Yitzi 04-01-07, 12:32 AM	A couple of questions regarding ammo: 1. Does ammo for differently sized projectile weapons need to be differently sized (e.g. large arrows for a large bow, small arrows for a small bow), affecting cost and weight? 2. Is it possible to "withdraw" ammo from the "at home" section of the character sheet in the middle of a 3FC?
Tellish_of_Ket 04-01-07, 12:33 AM	Since when has popular opinion been that Sorcerers aren't viable here? I thought that one went away with the 3FC. I mean, we've got a Great Reknown level 10 Sorcerer in Leif Goldeneye, a Great Reknown Battle Sorcerer in TIM, and a Paladin/Sorcerer with a good record (might be Great Reknown if not for a couple of losses mostly due to the dice) in Mithos Durrol. Sorcerers are less popular than Wizards (lack of free feats, slower gain of higher-level spells, and the low number of spells they obtain meaning crafting isn't viable for them are probably why), but they're certainly viable. Zevox I'll disagree slightly (only slightly), and say that they have no choice but to craft things to be viable. Their choices are too limiting, they need to suppliment that with crafted wands and scrolls, or cloaks. Just my two cents though. ToK
NiQil 04-01-07, 12:41 AM	Since when has popular opinion been that Sorcerers aren't viable here? I thought that one went away with the 3FC. I mean, we've got a Great Reknown level 10 Sorcerer in Leif Goldeneye, a Great Reknown Battle Sorcerer in TIM, and a Paladin/Sorcerer with a good record (might be Great Reknown if not for a couple of losses mostly due to the dice) in Mithos Durrol. Sorcerers are less popular than Wizards (lack of free feats, slower gain of higher-level spells, and the low number of spells they obtain meaning crafting isn't viable for them are probably why), but they're certainly viable. Zevox I'm referring to a straight-classed PHB sorcerer. How many of those have we had lately? Even Leif, the only one of those you mentioned that is straight-classed PHB has a level adjustment race.
Zevox 04-01-07, 12:42 AM	A couple of questions regarding ammo: 1. Does ammo for differently sized projectile weapons need to be differently sized (e.g. large arrows for a large bow, small arrows for a small bow), affecting cost and weight? 2. Is it possible to "withdraw" ammo from the "at home" section of the character sheet in the middle of a 3FC? 1. Yes, naturally. 2. Yes, you can. You're perfectly allowed to pick up anything you leave at home between fights, just not after your fight has been rolled. (And of course as a reminder, expendables at home still count towards your cap.) I'll disagree slightly (only slightly), and say that they have no choice but to craft things to be viable. Their choices are too limiting, they need to suppliment that with crafted wands and scrolls, or cloaks. Just my two cents though. ToK I'll have to disagree with that. Not a one of the Sorcerers in the CoCo have a single crafting feat, yet as I said we have two that are Great Reknown and one multiclassed one that might be such were it not for dice defeats. They're perfectly viable purchasing wands, scrolls, and other equipment at full price. Zevox
Zevox 04-01-07, 12:49 AM	I'm referring to a straight-classed PHB sorcerer. How many of those have we had lately? Even Leif, the only one of those you mentioned that is straight-classed PHB has a level adjustment race. *shrugs* And? Its just a LA+1 Aasimar. Nothing unusual. Anyway, my point was that though the class is less popular than Wizards for obvious reasons (hence why we haven't seen any lately), its certainly still viable. Especially since the 3FC showed up and let them use all their spell slots ultimately, something they didn't have before which is supposed to be their chief advantage as a spellcaster. Zevox
Yitzi 04-01-07, 01:16 AM	Another couple of questions: 1. If a half-giant (medium creature, but able to use large weapons) uses a large reach weapon, is he considered to have a reach of 10' (but not closer) or 15' (but not closer)? Essentially, is a large reach weapon considered to add 10 to reach regardless of the size of its wielder? 2. Can you buy masterwork tools for a profession skill (without paying credits)?
MindWandererB 04-01-07, 03:01 AM	A couple of questions regarding ammo: 1. Does ammo for differently sized projectile weapons need to be differently sized (e.g. large arrows for a large bow, small arrows for a small bow), affecting cost and weight? 2. Is it possible to "withdraw" ammo from the "at home" section of the character sheet in the middle of a 3FC?1. Yes. Ammo must match the weapon in size. 2. Yes. You can pick up anything "at home" between fights within a cycle--which is why "at home" expendables count against your cap.Another couple of questions: 1. If a half-giant (medium creature, but able to use large weapons) uses a large reach weapon, is he considered to have a reach of 10' (but not closer) or 15' (but not closer)? Essentially, is a large reach weapon considered to add 10 to reach regardless of the size of its wielder? 2. Can you buy masterwork tools for a profession skill (without paying credits)?1. Reach is always based on your actual size. A half-giant with reach has 10 feet. The only exception is if you're using a too-small weapon, in which case you don't get reach at all (so a half-giant with a Large or Medium glaive has 10' reach, but has only 5' reach with a Small glaive). 2. Yes, and you always should. It's the "tool, masterwork" for 50 gp.
templer10 04-01-07, 06:37 AM	Another couple of questions: 1. If a half-giant (medium creature, but able to use large weapons) uses a large reach weapon, is he considered to have a reach of 10' (but not closer) or 15' (but not closer)? Essentially, is a large reach weapon considered to add 10 to reach regardless of the size of its wielder? 2. Can you buy masterwork tools for a profession skill (without paying credits)? a reach weapon Doubles the wielder natural reach- so if you have base 5- it gives you 10, base 10 gives 20 etc. using a bigger version of a wepon then normal doesnt add to it's reach since again it's based on a creature's natural reach it just gives more dmg. 2. yes you can buy tool. (see all the folk running around with masterwork tool (anything).
TheMagister 04-01-07, 07:05 AM	Not too powerful, just something nice for a trip build to have. Boots of Stability: These boots impart a dwarf-like connection to good old terra-firma, providing a +4 bonus to resist any attempt to bull rush, trip, or overrun the wearer. Faint Psychometabolism; ML 7th; Craft Universal Item, [i]immovability; Price: ???? I'm thinking that 1,600 sounds about right (4*4*100) by multiplying the bonus by itself and then by 100. It's a situational modifier, and useful only for defense. I'll be the first to admit that I'm no magic item expert, but this doesn't strike me as "OMGWTF?" like that skin of the duergar one did. :D Thoughts? TM :bump: I could really use an experienced eye on this one. (Short version: could someone figure it up for me correctly?) me
Abyssal Stalker 04-01-07, 07:57 AM	How does Black Tentacles actually work? Every creature within the area of the spell must make a grapple check, opposed by the grapple check of the tentacles. Treat the tentacles attacking a particular target as a Large creature with a base attack bonus equal to your caster level and a Strength score of 19. Thus, its grapple check modifier is equal to your caster level +8. The tentacles are immune to all types of damage. Once the tentacles grapple an opponent, they may make a grapple check each round on your turn to deal 1d6+4 points of bludgeoning damage. The tentacles continue to crush the opponent until the spell ends or the opponent escapes. Any creature that enters the area of the spell is immediately attacked by the tentacles. Even creatures who aren’t grappling with the tentacles may move through the area at only half normal speed. Does this mean that the initial grapple attack doesn't actually cause any damage, but the following grapple checks will?
templer10 04-01-07, 08:41 AM	How does Black Tentacles actually work? Does this mean that the initial grapple attack doesn't actually cause any damage, but the following grapple checks will? Since on a normal grapple attempt you automaticly do unarmed strike dmg on the first round of a grapple (if you made the grapple check) you do also here.
Horatius 04-01-07, 09:11 AM	BTW, for those keeping score....I've altered my approach slightly...since wizards are generally considered in the top 3 as far as power go, and I know that no one has tried one of these in a while...I'm gonna make a sorcerer instead. Nice little buffed up blaster who wields lots of wants. Want to see if I can make a sorcerer viable in this environment, contrary to popular opinion. Funny you should mention that - I'm about to try out a sorcerer. The big problem is getting to level 4. Before that, you're really short on, well, everything.
TheMagister 04-01-07, 09:11 AM	T10's got it right. TM
Abyssal Stalker 04-01-07, 09:50 AM	Since on a normal grapple attempt you automaticly do unarmed strike dmg on the first round of a grapple (if you made the grapple check) you do also here. Yes I know that's how it has been handled, but the wording is kind of funny. I was asking that because I started to wonder if we are using it correctly. We have to keep in mind that they are a spell effect and thus don't necessary follow normal rules for grappling.
TheMagister 04-01-07, 10:00 AM	Yeah, I know how you're thinkin'. But check this out: Treat the tentacles attacking a particular target as a Large creature with a base attack bonus equal to your caster level and a Strength score of 19. It's treated just like a normal grappling creature. A normal grappling creature deals its grapple damage on the initial successful grapple check. :) TM
SauroGrenom 04-01-07, 10:29 AM	:bump: I could really use an experienced eye on this one. (Short version: could someone figure it up for me correctly?) me I'm not certain about the price on that. Generally items that grant a feat's abilities are worth about 8000gp. This idea is a racial ability, and about half of a feat (improved trip when on the defensive). As GM, I'd price it as 4000gp or so, but I don't think there's anything in the core rules that will give you a clear answer.
Abyssal Stalker 04-01-07, 11:35 AM	Yeah, I know how you're thinkin'. But check this out: It's treated just like a normal grappling creature. A normal grappling creature deals its grapple damage on the initial successful grapple check. :) TM OK, OK :) I'll buy that.
Rauul 04-01-07, 01:17 PM	:bump: I could really use an experienced eye on this one. (Short version: could someone figure it up for me correctly?) me Save bonus (other) Bonus squared × 2,000 gp Skill bonus (competence) Bonus squared × 100 gp (per) Spell Effect Command word Spell level1 × caster level × 1,800 gp or you can go and do the math here.... (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#tableEstimatingMa gicItemGoldPieceValues) But honestly.. your looking for an item that is always active and offers a +4 to resist (str/dex) skills.. it would be. Save bonus (other) Bonus squared × 2,000 gp = 32,000 gp (16,000 gp if crafted by you) (this is a profound bonus not a competence or insight or enchantment) And looking at the other items in that price range it seems right..
TheMagister 04-01-07, 01:25 PM	But it's not a skill bonus or a save bonus. It's a bonus to resist a select few strength-based ability checks (trip/bull rush/overrun). So it's active all the time, but only applicable when those types of actions are taken against the wearer. It's not a +4 to trip/bull-rush/overrun attempts as well. If anything, it emulates a racial ability (dwarven stability). I picked that Immovability power because I couldn't think of anything else close. Is there an opposite to the Grease spell? Maybe spider climb or wall walker? It might need to be one of those items that says "Creator must be a Dwarf" or something. That would make more sense, now that I think about it. Edit: I mean, really. For 32K, I could get a Belt of Giant Strength +6 and get a straight +3 bonus to my Strength score that applies all the time for everything! TM
Yitzi 04-01-07, 01:32 PM	I made a character here, if you could look at it (I know the top line needs to be moved to the heading, but I'd like some feedback first)
hogarth 04-01-07, 01:56 PM	Edit: I mean, really. For 32K, I could get a Belt of Giant Strength +6 and get a straight +3 bonus to my Strength score that applies all the time for everything! TM 32,000 is crazy. I'd say it's worth about "1 feat", but how much is that in gp? (Note that many of the items that give a continuous benefit in the SRD are overpriced anyway. Gloves of Climbing and Swimming for 6250? Helm of Underwater Action for 57000?)
TheMagister 04-01-07, 02:11 PM	Are you looking for opinions or a proofread? Proofread: Your unarmed attack bonus is off (no wpn focus, so just str). I would put the Trip and Disarm boni under your Special Attacks and Abilities section. Your "Stomp" DC is actually 9 (-1 Cha). Notate your Composite Longbow like this to avoid confusion: Large [Ma] Mighty (+5) Composite Longbow. Opinions As a Pitlord, I like the 3FC info at the top of the character sheet. There's no reason to buy more than 3 of any kind of powerstone, since you can restock after each 3-Fight Cycle. For 150gp you could get three augmented [ML2] Vigor stones that would add 10 temporary hp (a much better deal). Man, I'd scrap the 5 ranks in Profession and slap 'em into Jump or Tumble. Winning fights earns more money than a profession skill, you know what I mean? Buy two or three Oils of Shillelagh and use them on your quarterstaff. It's done to death around here, but for good reason (3d6 damage!). Skip Inertial Armor and replace it with Force Screen. Inertial Armor powerstones are dirt cheap (25 gp) and last longer, and when you put more levels into Psychic Warrior your Force Screens will last longer as well. Dodge seems out of place in a low-dex build. Where are you going with that? If it was ME (and it's not), I'd sacrifice strength for intelligence. MAN, having -1 sp per level irks me. THAT is totally an opinion, though (and should be taken with that grain of salt everyone's always talkin' about).
TheMagister 04-01-07, 02:14 PM	32,000 is crazy. I'd say it's worth about "1 feat", but how much is that in gp? (Note that many of the items that give a continuous benefit in the SRD are overpriced anyway. Gloves of Climbing and Swimming for 6250? Helm of Underwater Action for 57000?) I wuz thinkin'. Those Gloves of Titan's Grip give a bonus to a check, right? Gloves of Titan's Grip [14,000gp]+8 enhancement to grapple for 7 rounds 3/day -- arena use: 7 rounds Who wants to reverse engineer that bad boy?
UserNamer 04-01-07, 02:32 PM	how many quest per level are allowed?
McJarvis 04-01-07, 02:34 PM	how many quest per level are allowed? 1 personal, as many guild quests as you want.
NiQil 04-01-07, 03:28 PM	So anyone have any suggestions for a good 1st level sorcerer feat? Right now I'm looking at Skill Focus (Concentration) or Improved Initiative, just because nothing else out there seems to fit with this PC that I am tinkering with. I'm not that big a fan of metamagic feats, and item creation is sorta counter-intuitive for a sorcerer. This PC is shaping up to use lots of his known powers as buffers, while most of his offense will come from wands and staffs.
Erithmu 04-01-07, 03:53 PM	So anyone have any suggestions for a good 1st level sorcerer feat? Right now I'm looking at Skill Focus (Concentration) or Improved Initiative, just because nothing else out there seems to fit with this PC that I am tinkering with. I'm not that big a fan of metamagic feats, and item creation is sorta counter-intuitive for a sorcerer. This PC is shaping up to use lots of his known powers as buffers, while most of his offense will come from wands and staffs. I would suggest against the SF ... if only because if most of your stuff is going to come from staves and wands ... they don't provoke AoOs, so you should 'have' to require defensive casts I might recommend thinking about a couple of Metamagic feats. I know you are against them but sorcerers gain more versatility through their metamagic feats, using it on the fly is one of their strengths. Extend is always a nice buffer Silent is good for being in a silence zone or if you decide you want to make a sneaky character, (ex: G. Invis + blasting .. "pinpoint me now") Still is great for casting in grapples If you are set on non-Meta stuff I would lean toward Improved Init, Possibly Eschew Materials if you feel like not having to deal with the material spell pouches. Improved Familiar and then pick one up when you reach the appropriate CL. That is the stuff just off the top of my head. *shrugs*
TheMagister 04-01-07, 04:09 PM	So anyone have any suggestions for a good 1st level sorcerer feat? Right now I'm looking at Skill Focus (Concentration) or Improved Initiative, just because nothing else out there seems to fit with this PC that I am tinkering with. I'm not that big a fan of metamagic feats, and item creation is sorta counter-intuitive for a sorcerer. This PC is shaping up to use lots of his known powers as buffers, while most of his offense will come from wands and staffs. What race are you going with?
Yitzi 04-01-07, 04:13 PM	Are you looking for opinions or a proofread? Proofread: Your unarmed attack bonus is off (no wpn focus, so just str). fixed I would put the Trip and Disarm boni under your Special Attacks and Abilities section. fixed Your "Stomp" DC is actually 9 (-1 Cha). and +1 power level, for a total of 10. DC for a spell/power is 10+spell/power level+key ability score bonus Notate your Composite Longbow like this to avoid confusion: Large [Ma] Mighty (+5) Composite Longbow. Except that I do not use the term "mighty", since it is not in my PHB. I did change it somewhat, though, to avoid confusion. Opinions As a Pitlord, I like the 3FC info at the top of the character sheet. I prefer it as it is in post 13 of the Characters thread. There's no reason to buy more than 3 of any kind of powerstone, since you can restock after each 3-Fight Cycle. Except I may use more than 1 in a battle. Actually, considering how often I'm likely to use them, a dorje may make more sense. For 150gp you could get three augmented [ML2] Vigor stones that would add 10 temporary hp (a much better deal). First of all, it's a better deal only in that it's more per action, it's the same number of hit points per price. Secondly, if I did that, I would have a 5% chance each time of it failing and risking brainburn (my ML is only 1). Man, I'd scrap the 5 ranks in Profession and slap 'em into Jump or Tumble. Winning fights earns more money than a profession skill, you know what I mean? Makes sense, except I don't see myself having much use for jump or tumble, plus my jump score is quite good anyway. Buy two or three Oils of Shillelagh and use them on your quarterstaff. It's done to death around here, but for good reason (3d6 damage!). Thanks. I planned to do that, then forgot. Skip Inertial Armor and replace it with Force Screen. Inertial Armor powerstones are dirt cheap (25 gp) and last longer, and when you put more levels into Psychic Warrior your Force Screens will last longer as well. What difference does it make if I get IE from the class and FS from the stone or vice versa? When I take more levels in a psionic class (which I don't plan to do for a while), I can take FS then. Until then, the only difference is if I choose to only use one of them...in which case IE is better due to the duration, and I would want to use the one from the class (since I have more pp than I know what to do with anyway) Dodge seems out of place in a low-dex build. Where are you going with that? +1 armor, that's where. If it was ME (and it's not), I'd sacrifice strength for intelligence. MAN, having -1 sp per level irks me. THAT is totally an opinion, though (and should be taken with that grain of salt everyone's always talkin' about). Yeah, it's annoying, but for a monk who isn't that dependent on skills, and is very dependent on attacks that use STR bonuses, it's a worthwhile trade-off. Still, thanks.
TheMagister 04-01-07, 04:16 PM	Okay. Glad I could help. :) Only one thing you said is worth going back over: First of all, it's a better deal only in that it's more per action, it's the same number of hit points per price. Secondly, if I did that, I would have a 5% chance each time of it failing and risking brainburn (my ML is only 1). and What difference does it make if I get IE from the class and FS from the stone or vice versa? When I take more levels in a psionic class (which I don't plan to do for a while), I can take FS then. Until then, the only difference is if I choose to only use one of them...in which case IE is better due to the duration, and I would want to use the one from the class (since I have more pp than I know what to do with anyway) This is only experience talking, and for sure you don't have to take my advice: actions are jewels beyond price in the CoCo. Optimizing your resources is a process of fine-tuning that I'm still learning. What I'm getting at is this: 1) Vigor: by the time you need to refresh it, your opponent is already beating on you. Chances are he does more than 5 hp/attack. You're taking a big risk by going off the offensive to draw/manifest Vigor for a measly 5 hp. If its ML 2, at least you get a decent payoff for your risk. 2) Force Screen: this is both money and time management. 1) Money: the bottom line financially is you'll re-manifest Force Screen more (1 min/level) than you'll re-manifest Inertial Armor (1 hr/level), and they cost the same. Why not get more bang for your buck? 2) Time: it takes less time to manifest from memory than it does to draw/manifest from a powerstone. If you're not going to take levels in another manifesting class for awhile, it still makes sense to swap IA for FS. At least you can move/manifest instead of draw/manifest/5' step. Also, you can cast IA first round and it'll still be there 590 rnds later. Better time management. {shrug} Of course, this is all just friendly advice. Have fun with your character! TM
Yitzi 04-01-07, 04:16 PM	So anyone have any suggestions for a good 1st level sorcerer feat? Right now I'm looking at Skill Focus (Concentration) or Improved Initiative, just because nothing else out there seems to fit with this PC that I am tinkering with. I'm not that big a fan of metamagic feats, and item creation is sorta counter-intuitive for a sorcerer. This PC is shaping up to use lots of his known powers as buffers, while most of his offense will come from wands and staffs. Consider weapon focus (ray) if you plan on using a lot of ranged touch attacks.
NiQil 04-01-07, 04:22 PM	What race are you going with? Wild Elf, at the moment. I'm also re-examining the metamagic feats, because I have a feeling I will get a lot of use out of Energy Substitution (x) later on, and I need another one for that anyway.
TheMagister 04-01-07, 04:35 PM	Darned Sorcerers don't get the requisite +1 BAB for WF till level 2. Hmm. Wild Elf. You'll have martial weapon proficiencies; any feats jump out at you for that? If you don't know what to take for a metamagic feat, may I suggest Heighten Spell? It's so underappreciated, and being able to apply it on the fly for a sorcerer is just hella nice. Up against a human barbarian? Heightened Sleep/Tasha's. Up against a heavy-armored tank? Heighten a Grease spell. Being able to up the DCs on any spell in your repertoire is not to be underestimated. Just my 2cp. TM
MindWandererB 04-01-07, 04:37 PM	Wild Elf, at the moment. I'm also re-examining the metamagic feats, because I have a feeling I will get a lot of use out of Energy Substitution (x) later on, and I need another one for that anyway. Yeah, I was wondering if that would occur to you. Energy Sub is fantastic for sorcs, and you do need another metamagic as a prereq. Consider Enlarge Spell (too many times have I seen tactics that involve calculating the opponents' range precisely and staying out of it) or even Heighten Spell (a heightened Blindness is often just as good as a higher-level SoD spell). If you're an elf, it's also worth considering pursuing archery feats. Although it's hard to defend against a sorc's full repertoire of spell options, it's even harder to defend when the character has the backup plan of pusting out a can of archery whoop-ass.
hogarth 04-01-07, 04:43 PM	Wild Elf, at the moment. I'm also re-examining the metamagic feats, because I have a feeling I will get a lot of use out of Energy Substitution (x) later on, and I need another one for that anyway. Against most gladiators, Subdual Substitution is better since it's impossible to defend against with Protection from Energy/Resist Energy.
NiQil 04-01-07, 04:47 PM	Heh...you both read my mind...Heighten Spell is the one I settled on about 3 seconds before reading it here...being able to tailor your spells to your opponent gives a sorcerer a lot more flexibility. Now on to the fun stuff....picking spells!
NiQil 04-01-07, 04:49 PM	Against most gladiators, Subdual Substitution is better since it's impossible to defend against with Protection from Energy/Resist Energy. That's what force effects are for!
Malither76 04-01-07, 05:10 PM	Hey guys this was my first week back after a long break, are all fights now the 3FC system, or how exactly does that work. Malik fought this week so is he locked in to fight the next to before going on a quest. I didn't see it when I was reading back through all the rules but that could just be me looking over it. thanks for the help
Sjiggie 04-01-07, 05:19 PM	I made a character here, if you could look at it (I know the top line needs to be moved to the heading, but I'd like some feedback first) A psychic warrior doesn't get power points at level 1 he gets 1 at level 2. You listed it in his total powerpoints line and in the powerpoints available you list that he has 3 available/3 for a total of 2 per fight wich should be 1. -Sjiggie
MindWandererB 04-01-07, 05:33 PM	Hey guys this was my first week back after a long break, are all fights now the 3FC system, or how exactly does that work. Malik fought this week so is he locked in to fight the next to before going on a quest. I didn't see it when I was reading back through all the rules but that could just be me looking over it. thanks for the help Almost everything is on the 3FC. There are some exceptions. For instance, a miniquest held after your 3rd fight can be declared "out-of-cycle," which is the only way you can have a miniquest of an EL lower than your ECL. You can't start a 3-week quest mid-cycle unless it's guild-related.
Malither76 04-01-07, 05:37 PM	so how do you know what week we are in, or is everyone on different cycles?
TheMagister 04-01-07, 05:55 PM	Different cycles.
Horatius 04-01-07, 07:20 PM	Can anyone tell me why the cost of an enlarge/reduce person potion is 250gp?
TelinArtho 04-01-07, 07:54 PM	The CL of the potion is 5.
Yitzi 04-01-07, 09:30 PM	A psychic warrior doesn't get power points at level 1 he gets 1 at level 2. You listed it in his total powerpoints line and in the powerpoints available you list that he has 3 available/3 for a total of 2 per fight wich should be 1. -Sjiggie fixed, thanks.
SauroGrenom 04-01-07, 09:35 PM	32,000 is crazy. I'd say it's worth about "1 feat", but how much is that in gp?Generally, items that grant a feat are worth about 8000gp. Let's see if I can recall the examples that made me think of that.... The psionitrix is 8000gp and gives +1 DC on powers from a particular school. That's equivalent to spell focus. A robe of the ArchMagi can be used to calculate the value of a +2 enhancement bonus on checks to penetrate spell resistance. The result is about 8000gp for an effect equivalent to the spell penetration feat. What TM is asking for is the defensive side of the improved trip feat, only it is an unnamed bonus that stacks with everything. It seams that it would be reasonable to cost at least 4000gp for that.
SauroGrenom 04-01-07, 09:58 PM	So anyone have any suggestions for a good 1st level sorcerer feat? Right now I'm looking at Skill Focus (Concentration) or Improved Initiative, just because nothing else out there seems to fit with this PC that I am tinkering with. I'm not that big a fan of metamagic feats, and item creation is sorta counter-intuitive for a sorcerer. This PC is shaping up to use lots of his known powers as buffers, while most of his offense will come from wands and staffs. If I may make a recommendation? Do this the opposite way. Your buff spells don't have save DC's. You don't have to penetrate SR or have a long range or long duration on your buff spells. As a caster, you want to cast your spells targeted on the opponents at max effect. That means you need to have reasonable save DC's and higher casting level on offensive spells. If your targeting foes with wands and scrolls, then the effects have low save DC's and caster levels. Staffs are a higher level option that cost a lot of credits, but they work well at having high CL and save DC. Generally it's smart to use your scrolls or other expendables for buffs. Buffs are situational, and not useful in every contest. See Invisibility isn't worthwhile against foes not invisible. Freedom of Movement isn't used against every foe. Shield isn't useful against touch attacks. Use what is necessary for an expendable buff in every battle. But don't rely on expendables to kill the opponent. That makes for an expensive victory every time. If you buff with expendables and kill with self cast spells, then it's an expensive victory only in the few cases where you need lots of buffs. If you use expendibles to kill, it's costly every battle where you need to dish damage with expendables. As a sorcerer, every spell you can memorize must really count in every battle possible. Damage output or condition modifying (like sleep or hold) spells are the best strategy for the spells known on a sorcerer. As for Race, there's no obvious best choice for a Cha based caster. Assimar is +2 Cha. You get nothing from 0LA races. If you are starting at ECL5 or higher, I'd seriously look at the Phrenic Template for a Cha caster. You get +4 Cha, and good SR and a host of useful protections and a few offensive abilities. It will cost you +2 LA, and that's hard on a caster, but versatility can be a boon. Also the +2 Cha Modifier is useful for Diplomacy or Leadership allies. However +2 LA is killer at ECL3. As for feats, MWB has already suggested Expand spell. That's a great one for the reasons he's mentioned. Also Still Spell allows you to function while in a grapple. Other than those, I'd suggest spell focus or mounted feats. Phantom Steed is a wonderful spell, and getting the most out of it requires a few mounted feats. Spell focus is great for improving the save DC and effectiveness of all your spells. Weapon Focus Ray is only worthwhile if you focus on rays spells, and that's further improved by the psionic shot feats.
Zevox 04-01-07, 09:58 PM	Hey guys this was my first week back after a long break, are all fights now the 3FC system, or how exactly does that work. Malik fought this week so is he locked in to fight the next to before going on a quest. I didn't see it when I was reading back through all the rules but that could just be me looking over it. thanks for the help He can go on a miniquest in mid-cycle if he wishes, just to make sure you're aware. It just has to be of EL at least equal to his level (so that its not easier than an arena fight would be). What TM is asking for is the defensive side of the improved trip feat Improved Trip doesn't have a defensive side. It applies only to when you try to trip an opponent, not when they try to trip you. Zevox
SauroGrenom 04-01-07, 10:05 PM	Improved Trip doesn't have a defensive side. It applies only to when you try to trip an opponent, not when they try to trip you. ZevoxI hadn't noticed that. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.
NiQil 04-01-07, 10:08 PM	I hadn't noticed that. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. That's part of the reason dwarven trippers are nasty....they get bonuses to attack and defend on trips that way...
NiQil 04-01-07, 10:15 PM	Due to the severe illness I have been fighting for most of the last week, there will be no Prison update this week. With all the medication I am on, I haven't been coherant enough to dedicate the amount of time I need to do it. So no violations will progress this week, and anyone that was in prison will get a temporary hall pass until I get things caught up next week.
Abyssal Stalker 04-02-07, 06:18 AM	Anyone care to take a look at my new character, Lemminkäinen? He is about finished, but I am still open to suggestions to improve him. His major flaw at the moment is countering flight, I think. But keep in mind that I have planned him for Sauro's campaign and he isn't supposed to be the primary attack force.
templer10 04-02-07, 06:35 AM	Due to the severe illness I have been fighting for most of the last week, there will be no Prison update this week. With all the medication I am on, I haven't been coherant enough to dedicate the amount of time I need to do it. So no violations will progress this week, and anyone that was in prison will get a temporary hall pass until I get things caught up next week. feel well and i Hope you updated cat about that hall pass- wouldnt want to miss pairing becuase cat doesn follow the posts here all that closly.
Zevox 04-02-07, 06:48 AM	feel well and i Hope you updated cat about that hall pass- wouldnt want to miss pairing becuase cat doesn follow the posts here all that closly. He doesn't need to. Cat knows who to put prison tags on only because of NiQil's updates - no roll call, no change in prison status as far as Cat's concerned. Zevox
templer10 04-02-07, 07:18 AM	He doesn't need to. Cat knows who to put prison tags on only because of NiQil's updates - no roll call, no change in prison status as far as Cat's concerned. Zevox yea- but my char was in prison last week (not mentioneing he shouldnt have but that's another story) so he needs to inform cat to pair him up despite that.
Maraxus 04-02-07, 10:53 AM	Anyone care to take a look at my new character, Lemminkäinen? He is about finished, but I am still open to suggestions to improve him. His major flaw at the moment is countering flight, I think. But keep in mind that I have planned him for Sauro's campaign and he isn't supposed to be the primary attack force. 1. You are mean to use an "ä". Most people here don't have that on their Keyboard. I like that. ;) 2. The Picture is cool. 3. Do you want to improve your Psi-Warrior later? At the moment you don't get much from it. Soon you will be able to effort an animated shield +1 that (with magic vestment) will make Force screen less necessary. ...But okay, if you need that to use powerstones anyway, than it's okay.
Abyssal Stalker 04-02-07, 01:19 PM	1. You are mean to use an "ä". Most people here don't have that on their Keyboard. I like that. ;) 2. The Picture is cool. 3. Do you want to improve your Psi-Warrior later? At the moment you don't get much from it. Soon you will be able to effort an animated shield +1 that (with magic vestment) will make Force screen less necessary. ...But okay, if you need that to use powerstones anyway, than it's okay. Well, the first two things are nice to hear but they won't probably help me a lot :) (Don't every keyboard have that strange little button that allows you to add two little dots above vowels?) 3. I'm not quite sure yet how I will advance him, it depends how the character turns out and what role he takes. I will probably stick mostly with cleric and consider the ability to use psionic expendables an advantage. And I think that force screen is a pretty cheap and effective way to use a two-handed weapon and still be able to have a shield bonus. An animated shield is quite expensive and I'd like to spend the cash to other things. On the other hand I might take up to four psi-warrior levels so that I get the most advantage out from that lost BAB.
UserNamer 04-02-07, 02:01 PM	A little question here: How much credits would it cost to quest for baboon, with +2hd(no CR change), and improved grapple instead of alertness? Can I do this with gather info?
hogarth 04-02-07, 02:06 PM	A little question here: How much credits would it cost to quest for baboon, with +2hd(no CR change), and improved grapple instead of alertness? Can I do this with gather info? I think the cost would be 5 credits (one changed feat). I don't think you can use Gather Info to alleviate the cost since there's no GP value to a Handle Animal ally.
UserNamer 04-02-07, 02:26 PM	I think the cost would be 5 credits (one changed feat). I don't think you can use Gather Info to alleviate the cost since there's no GP value to a Handle Animal ally. new ruling?
Macbrea 04-02-07, 02:30 PM	it's not a new ruling. There just isn't a gp value to babboon in which case it cannot be gather informationed. Gather information allows you to buy an 'item' at no credit cost upto your GP value.
hogarth 04-02-07, 02:32 PM	new ruling? Is what a new ruling? I'm just offering my opinion based on this: "Normally, a character can use his secret contacts, outstanding favors, or bribes, to buy custom items from the Blackmarket [..]" "The maximum value of one item depends on your ECL and your Gather information modifier [..]" It doesn't say anything about removing the credit cost for allies -- just custom items (with a maximum monetary value of X). If you want to know if Caterane would allow it, you'd have to ask him.
Zevox 04-02-07, 02:39 PM	(Don't every keyboard have that strange little button that allows you to add two little dots above vowels?) Nope. Here in the States we need to use strange key combinations to get letters like that (example I'm familiar with: holding alt and typing 150 in on the number pad gets you a "û" letter, as in Faerûn). A little question here: How much credits would it cost to quest for baboon, with +2hd(no CR change), and improved grapple instead of alertness? Can I do this with gather info? 10 credits (5 for the advanced HD, 5 for the feat), and no you cannot use Gather Info due to the lack of a gp cost if nothing else. Zevox
Rauul 04-02-07, 02:53 PM	Ok got a rules Question.. Someone Telekentic thrusts charged deep crystal non magical weapons at a charater with protection from arrows (dr 10 ranged weapons) the weapons do 0 damage to the person... do they take the deep crystal damage or not...
Abyssal Stalker 04-02-07, 02:55 PM	Nope. Here in the States we need to use strange key combinations to get letters like that (example I'm familiar with: holding alt and typing 150 in on the number pad gets you a "û" letter, as in Faerûn). Oh well, then I guess I just have to stick being mean :)
Erithmu 04-02-07, 02:58 PM	Ok got a rules Question.. Someone Telekentic thrusts charged deep crystal non magical weapons at a charater with protection from arrows (dr 10 ranged weapons) the weapons do 0 damage to the person... do they take the deep crystal damage or not...I appreciate the number of prebuffs this guy has up ....
Macbrea 04-02-07, 03:00 PM	The most common one for us here at coco is probably alt-167 or º
Rauul 04-02-07, 03:04 PM	I appreciate the number of prebuffs this guy has up .... only 2... and only ones thats last hours per level
McJarvis 04-02-07, 03:26 PM	The most common one for us here at coco is probably alt-167 or º Really? I just type [ s u p ] o [ / s u p ] every time.
TelinArtho 04-02-07, 03:31 PM	Really? I just type [ s u p ] o [ / s u p ] every time. But look at how much longer that is: o versus: º
McJarvis 04-02-07, 03:36 PM	But look at how much longer that is: o versus: º ...but my typing speed is so high that I can type the sup/sup line faster than reaching my right hand over to the keypad(or typing from the top row)
SauroGrenom 04-02-07, 03:38 PM	I always just say "credits". The weird symbols and such have always escaped me.
TelinArtho 04-02-07, 03:39 PM	Ah - but just think about the space it saves... so many 50k+ character fights could be reduced down and so they wouldn't need to span multiple posts... (and yes - I am being sarcastic. Personally, I just copy the character from one of the other "true" Alt-167 characters I typed up because I can never remember the code...) As a side note - using the numbers from the keypad is a requirement. Alt-167 from the top row will not generate the code.
McJarvis 04-02-07, 03:40 PM	As a side note - using the numbers from the keypad is a requirement. Alt-167 from the top row will not generate the code. I guess that mistake is a testament to how I *never* use my top row of #'s... (except when I use symbols like #'s....)
MindWandererB 04-02-07, 03:49 PM	Ok got a rules Question.. Someone Telekentic thrusts charged deep crystal non magical weapons at a charater with protection from arrows (dr 10 ranged weapons) the weapons do 0 damage to the person... do they take the deep crystal damage or not... Since deepcrystal adds damage to the base damage of the weapon, it would do (base weapon die)+2d6-10, minimum 0.
Zevox 04-02-07, 04:18 PM	The most common one for us here at coco is probably alt-167 or º So thats how you do that one. I've never been able to figure it out - just used superscript tags and the letter o instead. Zevox
hogarth 04-02-07, 04:27 PM	For non-alphanumeric characters, I sometimes use the highly sophistimacated technique of opening up a document in vi and typing ALT-<whatever>, ALT-SHIFT-<whatever>, and ALT-CTRL-<whatever> until I find the character in question. For instance, in vi an a with an umlaut is ALT-d. Then I copy and paste it into the message body. How elegant! :cool:
MindWandererB 04-02-07, 04:37 PM	Isn't it a lot easier to just use the Windows character map?
hogarth 04-02-07, 04:40 PM	Isn't it a lot easier to just use the Windows character map? Y'know, not everyone in the world uses Windows... (But yes, there's almost surely a faster, smarter way of doing it.)
Erithmu 04-02-07, 04:46 PM	you mean like Ctrl+C -> Ctrl+V?
MindWandererB 04-03-07, 12:26 AM	Y'know, not everyone in the world uses Windows... (But yes, there's almost surely a faster, smarter way of doing it.) Bah. Anyone who uses a Mac clearly doesn't care about computer know-how, and anyone who uses Linux shouldn't need any advice. In other news, I just realized that Maya is in a position to do a cohort MQ for her "placeholder" cohort. Since this dude is just going to get replaced in two or three levels, I'm not picky about the plot. In fact, getting a random QL is fine by me, but if anyone actively wants it, it's up for grab.
Erithmu 04-03-07, 12:30 AM	Bah. Anyone who uses a Mac clearly doesn't care about computer know-how, and anyone who uses Linux shouldn't need any advice. In other news, I just realized that Maya is in a position to do a cohort MQ for her "placeholder" cohort. Since this dude is just going to get replaced in two or three levels, I'm not picky about the plot. In fact, getting a random QL is fine by me, but if anyone actively wants it, it's up for grab.Sure ... set Maya ready
MindWandererB 04-03-07, 01:17 AM	Big news... big news. Today's ROTG says this: A feat that requires natural weaponry as a prerequisite, such as Multiattack, doesn't work with unarmed strikes. Likewise, having a natural weapon is not a substitute for the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. For example, you don't meet the Improved Unarmed Strike prerequisite for the Deflect Arrows feat if you just have a natural weapon.That's going to force a ton of revisions. As a courtesy, we should probably wait a week to give folks a chance to make this change before tossing them in prison.... Also, in the same article: A creature can choose to treat its unarmed attacks as its primary attacks and its natural weapons as secondary attacks. (This method is normally used to add weapon attacks to a natural attack routine.) The creature must make all unarmed attacks with its primary limb, which prevents that hand from being used for a natural attack such as a claw or slam.That nerfs the flurry/flurry/claw/claw/bite routine a bit (pay attention, TM--I asked to do that with Besthirah!) down to flurry/flurry/claw/bite.
Vathelokai 04-03-07, 01:20 AM	Big news... big news. Today's ROTG says this: That's going to force a ton of revisions. As a courtesy, we should probably wait a week to give folks a chance to make this change before tossing them in prison.... Dosn't that contradict the FAQ? I thought the FAQ was higher on our rule source hierarchy?
Abyssal Stalker 04-03-07, 01:36 AM	For non-alphanumeric characters, I sometimes use the highly sophistimacated technique of opening up a document in vi and typing ALT-<whatever>, ALT-SHIFT-<whatever>, and ALT-CTRL-<whatever> until I find the character in question. For instance, in vi an a with an umlaut is ALT-d. Then I copy and paste it into the message body. How elegant! :cool: I just press the button right next to "ö"... :P
MindWandererB 04-03-07, 01:54 AM	Dosn't that contradict the FAQ? I thought the FAQ was higher on our rule source hierarchy? No, it doesn't, not quite. It contradicts our interpretation of the FAQ, but the FAQ was somewhat ambigious in this case.
Vathelokai 04-03-07, 02:08 AM	So I was looking around on Google Images, searching for good character pics. I searched for 'guisarme', and supprisingly I kept finding CoCo stuff. I found Sunstroke, Zodiac, the guildhall.... ???
MindWandererB 04-03-07, 02:14 AM	So I was looking around on Google Images, searching for good character pics. I searched for 'guisarme', and supprisingly I kept finding CoCo stuff. I found Sunstroke, Zodiac, the guildhall.... ??? Google Images isn't too picky--it just looks for images on the same page as the word you're looking for. Yahoo images is no better. They both sort by popularity--you might have more luck if you add a key word. There's always HeroMachine, my program of choice--but only the full version has a guisarme-like polearm. And it seems to be down ATM.
SauroGrenom 04-03-07, 08:08 AM	I've found my character images in the wizards archive (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/ag). It's rather extensive, and thematically appropriate.
SauroGrenom 04-03-07, 08:52 AM	New RoTG article says the following: "Likewise, having a natural weapon is not a substitute for the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. For example, you don't meet the Improved Unarmed Strike prerequisite for the Deflect Arrows feat if you just have a natural weapon." Not done reading it in full, but that one jumped out at me.
Maraxus 04-03-07, 09:21 AM	Interesting. So we have the options to: 1. Ignore that. 2. Fix the characters (and companions) and the monsters that violate this ruling. 3. Fix the characters and companions but not the monsters (and monsters with illegan deflect arrows can still be companions but not through customisation, only if it's like that in the book)
hogarth 04-03-07, 09:22 AM	New RoTG article says the following: "Likewise, having a natural weapon is not a substitute for the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. For example, you don't meet the Improved Unarmed Strike prerequisite for the Deflect Arrows feat if you just have a natural weapon." Not done reading it in full, but that one jumped out at me. MWB mentioned it already. I always thought that was one of the dumber CoCo rulings and I'm glad it's getting overturned. Now if you want judo horses, you'll have to splurge on two feats (not just one).
Zevox 04-03-07, 09:48 AM	Big news... big news. Today's ROTG says this: A feat that requires natural weaponry as a prerequisite, such as Multiattack, doesn't work with unarmed strikes. Likewise, having a natural weapon is not a substitute for the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. For example, you don't meet the Improved Unarmed Strike prerequisite for the Deflect Arrows feat if you just have a natural weapon. :w00t: Finally, something that makes sense comes out of those articles! No more ninja animals or grappling horses! Happy day indeed :D . Zevox
Vathelokai 04-03-07, 09:55 AM	I've found my character images in the wizards archive (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/ag). It's rather extensive, and thematically appropriate. Yeah, but since I'm looking for images for a shapeshifter, I wanted a colection of interesting stuff that wasn't obviously from the monster manuals. Still can't find a picture I'm set on for her 'base' image.
McJarvis 04-03-07, 10:11 AM	Yeah, but since I'm looking for images for a shapeshifter, I wanted a colection of interesting stuff that wasn't obviously from the monster manuals. Still can't find a picture I'm set on for her 'base' image. There are a number of Magic cards with shapeshifters on them. If you find a Magic Card database you could just do a search on Creature type: shapeshifter. I haven't played the game in about a decade(dang...), but as I recall Volrath's Shapeshifter, Escaped Shapeshifter, Morphling, Vesuvian Doppleganger, Clone, etc would all be good examples. (depending on exact spin you wanted) On a more d&dish note, I've always loved the Master of Many forms pic from (masters of the wild?) Of course, I didn't look at the character at all, so I apologize if it's a lycanthrope(in which case none of these suggestions were good) RE: Natural Weapons/IUAS: That might pique Krytos's interest in returning. I know it's on his laundry list of why he doesn't like CoCo...heh (even though he abused it since his only character was a druid? ;) )
SauroGrenom 04-03-07, 10:23 AM	Yeah, but since I'm looking for images for a shapeshifter, I wanted a colection of interesting stuff that wasn't obviously from the monster manuals. Still can't find a picture I'm set on for her 'base' image. They've got all sorts of stuff in their from the splat books. Looking through that, I think you should be able to find something of a shifter.
Erithmu 04-03-07, 10:28 AM	Try this one Vath: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/rod_gallery/86310.jpg Otherwise dig through some of the Eberron stuff. The changeling race might provide some interesting options for you.
One_Marine 04-03-07, 10:36 AM	Hey y'all, I'm new here. I'm in the midst of making my first character and had a couple questions pop up. How is the price for powerstones figured out? And can anyone recommend some powerstones which would be useful to a Half-Giant Psy-War?
Iced 04-03-07, 10:51 AM	Just got back from a 10 day eurotrip and taking a break guys.
hogarth 04-03-07, 11:03 AM	:w00t: Finally, something that makes sense comes out of those articles! No more ninja animals or grappling horses! Happy day indeed :D . Unfortunately, no one has said that. Note MWB's post in the Prison thread where he's giving his dire bat the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. :turkey: = :monk:
templer10 04-03-07, 11:13 AM	Hey y'all, I'm new here. I'm in the midst of making my first character and had a couple questions pop up. How is the price for powerstones figured out? And can anyone recommend some powerstones which would be useful to a Half-Giant Psy-War? check the Rules of galdius the section about metarules and good powerstones would be force screen, augmented expansion (cost 150 GP), Skate, vigor (aug to ML2), some other stuff also.
One_Marine 04-03-07, 11:18 AM	Ok, thanks. Now a new question; what would it require to use a powerstone with a power whose level my guy cannot yet manifest? What about a stone with a ML higher than my character's?
hogarth 04-03-07, 11:21 AM	Ok, thanks. Now a new question; what would it require to use a powerstone with a power whose level my guy cannot yet manifest? What about a stone with a ML higher than my character's? To use a stone with a higher ML, you need to make a manifester level check with a DC of (stone's ML + 1).
One_Marine 04-03-07, 11:31 AM	Thanks. And one final question. I get a little confused about manifester levels...or rather, how they're determined. My character is a Psy-War 2, so he can only manifest level 1 powers. Is his ML 2 or 1?
Macbrea 04-03-07, 11:41 AM	Big news... big news. Also, in the same article: That nerfs the flurry/flurry/claw/claw/bite routine a bit (pay attention, TM--I asked to do that with Besthirah!) down to flurry/flurry/claw/bite. That doesn't nerf that. Because monk can make a flurry with any portion of it's body. It still has both claws available to make those natural attack. Anyone other then a monk has to make unarmed strikes with their hands.
hogarth 04-03-07, 11:43 AM	Thanks. And one final question. I get a little confused about manifester levels...or rather, how they're determined. My character is a Psy-War 2, so he can only manifest level 1 powers. Is his ML 2 or 1? ML 2.
hogarth 04-03-07, 11:45 AM	Interesting. So we have the options to: 1. Ignore that. 2. Fix the characters (and companions) and the monsters that violate this ruling. 3. Fix the characters and companions but not the monsters (and monsters with illegan deflect arrows can still be companions but not through customisation, only if it's like that in the book) With regards to #3, there are no monsters with illegal "Deflect Arrows" feats. None. There are a couple with Improved Grapple (bebilith, barbed devil) but that's it.
SauroGrenom 04-03-07, 12:02 PM	I'm looking at replacing Improved Grapple on one of the allies for Raskos, and I came up with this question. So how are natural weapons of creatures with only one natural weapon treated with respect to certain special attacks and feats? Specifically the Power Attack feat says that if a weapon is two handed, then the damage boost is doubled. In some sense, particular natural weapons are treated as two handed. For example a Worg and Yeth Hound get 1.5 times strength bonus applied to the damage of its bite, much like a two handed weapon. Whenever a creature has just one natural attack, it's treated as being wielded two handed with respect to strength bonus on damage. Is that as far as it goes, or should we extend that to other things and treat these natural weapons as two handed? Would that bite be considered a two handed weapon with respect to a sunder or disarm attempt?
TelinArtho 04-03-07, 12:06 PM	I think this is answered in the FAQ - let me check real quick.
Macbrea 04-03-07, 12:07 PM	The problem is natural weapons are also treated as Light weapons for weapon finesse and two weapon combat. I would guess you only get normal damage when power attacking.
Macbrea 04-03-07, 12:11 PM	Does a dragon with Power Attack add twice the number subtracted from attack rolls to damage rolls when making a tail slap? No. While it shares some mathematical similarity to a twohanded weapon, the tail slap (or any other natural weapon that adds 1–1/2 the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls) doesn’t gain any other benefits applied to the use of a twohanded weapon. So, though it looks the same... it isn't.
SauroGrenom 04-03-07, 12:12 PM	Nuts.
One_Marine 04-03-07, 12:14 PM	ML 2. Thanks again.
TelinArtho 04-03-07, 12:14 PM	Yup from page 77 of FAQ I've got (Monster's section): Does a dragon with Power Attack add twice the number subtracted from attack rolls to damage rolls when making a tail slap? No. While it shares some mathematical similarities to a two-handed weapon, the tail slap (or any other natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls) doesn't gain any other benefits applied to the use of a two-handed weapon.
Macbrea 04-03-07, 12:15 PM	I agree.. when I went to fix Razorfang. I was trying to figure out what feat to take to replace deflect arrows. I ended up taking the feat I would have taken as a result of making monk 2.
hogarth 04-03-07, 12:17 PM	I agree.. when I went to fix Razorfang. I was trying to figure out what feat to take to replace deflect arrows. I ended up taking the feat I would have taken as a result of making monk 2. I gave Treetall Oakleg's animal companion Psionic Hole (instead of Improved Grapple). It's a pretty nifty feat, IMO.
SauroGrenom 04-03-07, 12:22 PM	I was thinking of going for Awesome Blow. But now I'm waffling between Stand Still, Mental Resistance, Weapon Focus (bite) and Psionic Hole.
Malither76 04-03-07, 12:22 PM	Hey guys how does changing a cohort work, does it cost credits, I have seen some people say they will get someone to fill the blank until they reach the level when they can have the cohort they wanted. please explaine. thanks
SauroGrenom 04-03-07, 12:26 PM	Hey guys how does changing a cohort work, does it cost credits, I have seen some people say they will get someone to fill the blank until they reach the level when they can have the cohort they wanted. please explaine. thanks Gaining a cohort is a quest goal. I've also seen people use a MQ to gain a cohort. For example say that I really want an Advanced Yeth Hound Fighter as a cohort. I cannot get him as a cohort at all till I'm allowed to have an ECL6 cohort. So If I take the feat at ECL6, then I cannot get the cohort I want. I'll take some other ECL4 cohort for a few levels and then get a new one.
Malither76 04-03-07, 12:30 PM	no I get that, but do you just do another quest to gain your new one and the old cohort gets thrown away. thats the question, does doing this effect your leadership score. you know how does this work
hogarth 04-03-07, 12:34 PM	no I get that, but do you just do another quest to gain your new one and the old cohort gets thrown away. thats the question, does doing this effect your leadership score. you know how does this work It's your cohort, so I imagine you can come up with a story for parting on good terms. You would have to do a new (mini)quest for your new cohort, of course.
templer10 04-03-07, 12:38 PM	Ok, thanks. Now a new question; what would it require to use a powerstone with a power whose level my guy cannot yet manifest? What about a stone with a ML higher than my character's? as an answer for that- i quest from the court desicions- "All single use expendable items, including (but not limited to) scrolls, potions, powerstones, tattoos and wondrous items, are limited to a caster/power level equal to your ECL. Scrolls and powerstones are further limited to your CL/ML + 2. Charged items, including (but not limited to) wands, dorjes, staffs, psicrowns and wondrous items are also limited to being purchased up to your ECL in caster/power level."
One_Marine 04-03-07, 01:02 PM	as an answer for that- i quest from the court desicions- "All single use expendable items, including (but not limited to) scrolls, potions, powerstones, tattoos and wondrous items, are limited to a caster/power level equal to your ECL. Scrolls and powerstones are further limited to your CL/ML + 2. Charged items, including (but not limited to) wands, dorjes, staffs, psicrowns and wondrous items are also limited to being purchased up to your ECL in caster/power level." Ah, thanks for pointing that out. And you mentioned powerstones of Expansion (augmented) and Vigor (augmented). How does the calculation for those break down? I can't seem to find it, and the meta-rules don't explain it.
One_Marine 04-03-07, 01:45 PM	Ah, thanks for pointing that out. And you mentioned powerstones of Expansion (augmented) and Vigor (augmented). How does the calculation for those break down? I can't seem to find it, and the meta-rules don't explain it. Nevermind, I got it.
MindWandererB 04-03-07, 02:39 PM	It's your cohort, so I imagine you can come up with a story for parting on good terms. You would have to do a new (mini)quest for your new cohort, of course.If the Leadership score works out, I'm thinking of, during my MQ for my second cohort, having my holdover cohort lose a couple of levels to energy drain, and thus bust him down to a Follower.That doesn't nerf that. Because monk can make a flurry with any portion of it's body. It still has both claws available to make those natural attack. Anyone other then a monk has to make unarmed strikes with their hands.Except that it does. The RotG specifically says that if you combine unarmed strikes with natural weapons, then you must use your primary limb for the unarmed strikes. No kicks, no headbutts, just punches. No exception for monks. In fact, even though the text about being able to make unarmed strikes with a headbutt etc. is in the Monk description, the Combat section says that anyone can make an unarmed strike this way.
Maraxus 04-03-07, 02:49 PM	Technically, the creature you attack gets an attack of opportunity against you even if you're not in the area it threatens (or when it's too small to threaten the area around it) because you're reaching into its space to make your unarmed attack. For example, if you're size Medium and you use your 5-foot reach to make an unarmed attack against a Tiny creature (reach 0 feet) that has a weapon (natural or otherwise), you provoke an attack of opportunity. If you've ever tried to pick up an angry cat, you'll have no difficulty appreciating what the rules are trying to simulate here....And when you ever kicked after a cat or a small angry dog, you know, this if a stupid ruling. (PS: I have not. ;) )
Macbrea 04-03-07, 02:50 PM	No.. the primary limb of a monk is it's body. Not it's fist, to quote the SRD: A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that it must make those flurries with it's body.
Maraxus 04-03-07, 03:14 PM	Yes, I do find these last two articles very useful and hopefully the next one too (monks that use weapons and unarmed attacks) So: -Any creature can use an unarmed Strike as a primary attacks, by using one of it's limbs. -Any creature can use unarmed strike as an off-hand attack without using limb. -Exception: Monks can use unarmed strikes as primary weapons without using a limb, too. Questions unanwered: -What about limbless creatures like Nagas? -Can I use a no-limb-off-hand unarmed strike if I allready made a 2-weapon attack? Would it follow the multiweapon attack rules? -What about creatures with more then 2 limbs?
MindWandererB 04-03-07, 03:32 PM	No.. the primary limb of a monk is it's body. Not it's fist, to quote the SRD: A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that it must make those flurries with it's body.Yes, but: Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:So that's true for anyone, not just monks. Your "body" is not a "limb." Yes, I do find these last two articles very useful and hopefully the next one too (monks that use weapons and unarmed attacks) So: -Any creature can use an unarmed Strike as a primary attacks, by using one of it's limbs. -Any creature can use unarmed strike as an off-hand attack without using limb. -Exception: Monks can use unarmed strikes as primary weapons without using a limb, too. Questions unanwered: -What about limbless creatures like Nagas? -Can I use a no-limb-off-hand unarmed strike if I allready made a 2-weapon attack? Would it follow the multiweapon attack rules? -What about creatures with more then 2 limbs?That "exception" is still under debate. Presumably, a limbless creature would get an unarmed strike with the most reasonable body part available--probably the tail, for a naga. Just as you can't make both an off-hand weapon attack and an off-hand armor spike attack in the same round, you shouldn't be able to make an off-hand unarmed strike an an off-hand weapon attack. Creatures with more than two limbs still use one "primary" limb. A human uses one of its two arms to strike; how is that different from using one of four arms?
McJarvis 04-03-07, 03:36 PM	-Can I use a no-limb-off-hand unarmed strike if I allready made a 2-weapon attack? Would it follow the multiweapon attack rules? oOOO....I like that. The TWF fighter cuts, cuts, cuts, and his enemy isn't quite dead yet...so he finally headbutts to give the final blow.
Macbrea 04-03-07, 03:41 PM	I didn't quote the whole section on monk unarmed but can. It clearly states that monks don't have to use their hands for purpose of doing unarmed strikes. And that their primary attack is any portion of their body. At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes. This means if their hands are occupied with making a natural attack, they may use any other portion of their body.
SauroGrenom 04-03-07, 03:45 PM	No.. the primary limb of a monk is it's body. Not it's fist, to quote the SRD: A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that it must make those flurries with it's body.To be perfectly honest, the suggestion that the quote from the SRD implies that the monk's whole body is used in flurries, is not quite accurate. Rather our SRD sources are stating that elbows, knees, feet, hands and head butts are available to be used in an unarmed strike. To say that the whole body is a weapon is a reasonable leap to make, but it's a leap none the less. I haven't really thought every angle through yet, but that distinction may be an important one to make.
Zevox 04-03-07, 03:46 PM	I didn't quote the whole section on monk unarmed but can. It clearly states that monks don't have to use their hands for purpose of doing unarmed strikes. And that their primary attack is any portion of their body. This means if their hands are occupied with making a natural attack, they may use any other portion of their body. Yes, but as MWB has been pointing out, that rule applies to anyone else as well. The thing is, the new FAQ rule says that when using a natural weapon and a an unarmed attack, you must use your primary limb as your unarmed attack. That means you cannot use anything but that limb for the unarmed attack when combining it with natural weapon attacks, period. Zevox
Macbrea 04-03-07, 03:50 PM	Can you tell me from that quote about monks. What is their primary limb?
Zevox 04-03-07, 03:55 PM	Can you tell me from that quote about monks. What is their primary limb? The same as for any other biped, whichever of its arms has its primary hand. Like MWB said, Monks aren't the only ones who can make unarmed attacks with legs and the like, but I don't think anyone is going to argue that a non-monk human has their legs as their primary limb for combat. Zevox
Macbrea 04-03-07, 04:03 PM	Monk's unlike everyone else don't have a primary limb. It says so in their description. A fighter could do punch and kick but the kick would count as a secondary attack. Using the two weapon fighting rules. A monk doesn't have that. Therefore, they could do Claw, Claw, Bite, flurry kick, flurry kick calling their right leg their primary limb. The rules are very specific in stating that monks do not suffer from penalties for striking with other parts of their body. Which seems to indicate that they may use any of those as their primary limb at any time.
Zevox 04-03-07, 04:17 PM	Monk's unlike everyone else don't have a primary limb. It says so in their description. A fighter could do punch and kick but the kick would count as a secondary attack. The kick would not be secondary, it would be an "off hand" second attack via TWF - only natural weapons can be secondary attacks. As MWB showed and I've been repeating, the monk description applies to everyone who uses unarmed attacks, not just monks. Its just a reiteration since monks use unarmed attacks extensively. Therefore, like everyone else, monks have their primary arm as their primary limb, even though like everyone else they can also use kicks, elbows, etc interchangeably for unarmed attacks. Zevox
Maraxus 04-03-07, 04:31 PM	Okay, I get it. It does not make much sense but: You can only make a limbless off-hand attack, if this is your only off-hand attack this turn. This also means: Off-Hand unarmed strike or off-hand armor spikes not both. Yes, but as MWB has been pointing out, that rule applies to anyone else as well. The thing is, the new FAQ rule says that when using a natural weapon and a an unarmed attack, you must use your primary limb as your unarmed attack. That means you cannot use anything but that limb for the unarmed attack when combining it with natural weapon attacks, period. No, that's not compleatly right. You use your limb for the unarmed strike. That means, you can not use that limb for a claw attack but it does not prevent you from taking off-hand unarmed strikes (either with additional limbs or the limbless one), too. Plus, as stated, the Monk is very liberal, about what limbs to use, head, elbow (implying that a claw/weapon at the same arm would still be useable), and the feet are all useable.
hogarth 04-03-07, 05:35 PM	What is the minimum EL for a corpse-gathering miniquest? Here's what the rules have to say: Quest Goal and EL: Every quest must have an EL. If you just want to quest for roleplaying purposes, the EL is completely up to you. If you quest for an ally, the EL must be at least as high as the CR of the to-be ally (and the ally is never the opponent that you have to defeat). On any other specific quest goal, be it to become a blackguard or warmind, or enter a guild, the EL must be as high as your ECL. Let's say an ECL 7 character wishes to find a nightmare skeleton as his quest goal. Does that require an EL 3 miniquest (since a 6 HD skeleton is an EL 3 ally) or an EL 7 miniquest (since it's "any other specific quest goal")?
MindWandererB 04-03-07, 05:38 PM	What is the minimum EL for a corpse-gathering miniquest? Here's what the rules have to say: Let's say an ECL 7 character wishes to find a nightmare skeleton as his quest goal. Does that require an EL 3 miniquest (since a 6 HD skeleton is an EL 3 ally) or an EL 7 miniquest (since it's "any other specific quest goal")? It's effectively an ally quest, so EL 3 (if it's out of cycle). In other news, the Traps section of our rules have been revised, as has been promised for weeks. It's not a big change, but there are some new restrictions. Maraxus, one of Noko's traps just became illegal (due to unequal Search/Disable). Of course, that would probably fall under the "no IMT-affecting rules changes" clause we just agreed to, so no need to fix it while she's in the tourney.
NiQil 04-03-07, 05:55 PM	So I'm sure this has been in the back of everyone's head since Cat originally said it...but it appears that the possibility of it actually happening is becoming greater and greater. So I'm gonna throw out there the question that I'm sure most of us have thought about but no one has said: Who's going to step up and take over as GM of the forum if Cat decides to leave? MWB, who already has experience performing those duties and has access to the Pitlords account? ToK, who has done so before? Another Elder? Someone else? Or will the board flounder and crumble? I personally don't think it will come to that...but I am curious to know what other's thoughts are on the matter...I'm sure just about everyone has given the idea at least a passing thought recent.
McJarvis 04-03-07, 06:02 PM	Another Elder? Someone else? I can think of a particularly handsome forum member who would likely be up to the task.... *waits to see who is full of themselves* ----- Likely the little jobs that Cat does could be divvied up. Black Market, CEF running, Character Changes, & Weekly Pairings could all be delegated to different people of note on the boards. The matter of who would take over Cat's authority is another matter, though. This is likely a question that he will have to give advice on, as well, since he is the best suited person to know who might be able to carry on his torch. All that aside-> is it really so serious that he will be leaving? I didn't think the Iron Man discussion had him THAT enraged... edit-> Me personally? I'd be willing to do any of the small tasks I mentioned before(other than running CEF). I doubt I have enough respect on the boards to be a good choice for GM. :)
MindWandererB 04-03-07, 06:20 PM	I wasn't going to bring it up, but let me tell you what I know. Cat is pretty upset, and he is thinking about leaving. As near as I can gather, he hasn't completely made up his mind yet. As I'm sure you all are, I'm hoping he stays. If he does decide to quit--now or ever--he's said in no uncertain terms that he would want Sauro and I to be the new co-GMs. However, neither Sauro nor I have the time to do everything Cat does--and it won't be long before Sauro has very little time at all (time and med school are 100% antithetical). I don't think Cat has lent much thought to that inevitability. What's going to have to happen, if this unhappy event occurs, is a lot of delegation. Between pairings, roster updates, training hall/blackmarket approvals, plus my current duties as Guildmaster (TLT) and Guildlords, I don't know how Cat ever did it, and he pushed through add-ons on top of all that (which I would like to continue). Those duties will have to be spread out among more people, no question about it. Of course, if Sauro and I got promoted, we'd have two more Elder positions to assign, as well. So there's no need for alarm just yet, but some of you long-time participants might want to have those duties floating around in the backs of your heads to consider whether you'd be willing and able to do them.
McJarvis 04-03-07, 06:22 PM	I love it when people agree with me. Though, I must say-> the prospect of having my "official archenemy" (Sauro) be GM will put a damper on things. No one likes to war with God-> I'd have to find another "official archenemy"....
MitzaVolchenko 04-03-07, 06:27 PM	I love it when people agree with me. Though, I must say-> the prospect of having my "official archenemy" (Sauro) be GM will put a damper on things. No one likes to war with God-> I'd have to find another "official archenemy".... I volunteer! Ooh ooh me! I wanna be your archenemy! In all seriousness, my apologies for my absence. I have been sick unto thepoint where I didn't even go to Macbrea's house last weekend (those that know me, know that is extremely rare). I am still off this week, but I will be back up and in rotation again next week.
SauroGrenom 04-03-07, 06:29 PM	I volunteer! Ooh ooh me! I wanna be your archenemy! In all seriousness, my apologies for my absence. I have been sick unto thepoint where I didn't even go to Macbrea's house last weekend (those that know me, know that is extremely rare). I am still off this week, but I will be back up and in rotation again next week. As much as your a pain in my arse, I'm glad to hear you're feeling better and will be returning shortly. The above is intended in good humor.
MindWandererB 04-03-07, 06:34 PM	In all seriousness, my apologies for my absence. I have been sick unto thepoint where I didn't even go to Macbrea's house last weekend (those that know me, know that is extremely rare).Good to see you again. Now get back to work!:waits: (J/K... take care of the Casino when you have time and energy, no hurry.)
MitzaVolchenko 04-03-07, 06:36 PM	The feeling is mutual Sauro, but it is good to be back(ish). I am hoping that all I have left of this plague (*blames Macbrea for bring it home from work and giving it to the cat that gave it to me*) is the coughing it out of my lungs. I fogive my darling man, but I think my cat who caught it from me will hate him eternally if she ever figures out the link.
TelinArtho 04-03-07, 06:38 PM	The feeling is mutual Sauro, but it is good to be back(ish). I am hoping that all I have left of this plague (*blames Macbrea for bring it home from work and giving it to the cat that gave it to me*) is the coughing it out of my lungs. I fogive my darling man, but I think my cat who caught it from me will hate him eternally if she ever figures out the link. So the question really is - what is the cat doing to be that intimate with either you or MacBrea? :) Welcome back.
MitzaVolchenko 04-03-07, 06:46 PM	So the question really is - what is the cat doing to be that intimate with either you or MacBrea? :) Welcome back. Pffft! Wouldn't you like to know? For the record the cat in question had surgery and was being medicated by method of cramming drugs down its very unhappy throat. My cat has a habit of sleeping on my head whenever possible.
SauroGrenom 04-03-07, 06:52 PM	MWB, I just got your PM. Reply sent. I sent the message you requested to the wrong account for some reason. I forwarded it to the correct account just now. McJarvis, I made it to archenemy status? Wow. I'm flattered. :embarrass On other things: I'm with MWB on this. I'd really much prefer for Cat to decide to stay. The administrative service he gives to us is invaluable. And the continuity of judgment style from a single person is a great asset to the longevity of the board community. His primary concern is that Cat feels like the flavor of the community doesn't hold the same good faith that he remembers. In recent months, rather nasty attacks on his personal integrity have been leveled against him simply because he's GM and has very successful characters. I sympathize with him, and I think his feeling is well founded. In the event that we need to take over for him, we can hope it will only be for a few months. I've given this possibility some thought, and in my mind Cat's duties fall into 3 groups. There's CEF Guildmaster, and his Administrative duties and his Judgment calls. Administrative duties include: Updating the Characters Thread (Roster, Graveyard, Pitlord Record) Updating the Battle Thread (Records and weekly pairings) Judgment duties include: BlackMarket Approvals Character Changes Thread Approvals Rules updates and revisions (including Add-On's) Administrative duties are more time consuming and predictable regular commitments, while judgment calls set the flavor of the board and a sense of continuity is critical in this realm. Come August 1st, I'll be dealing with classes again full time. I doubt I'll have the time for Administrative duties, but I can probably contribute to the Judgment duties. There are several blocks of time where I will have break, and I could work on Add-Ons then.
McJarvis 04-03-07, 07:00 PM	@Sauro-> Well, I seem to argue with you more than anyone else on the forum :-) The "back story", though, is that my first year of college I randomly chose a guy on campus to call my "archenemy" and just started going off on him(in the typical grandiose and wordy style)...without bothering to explain it. Somehow he got what I was doing(??) and responded right back. We ended up being really good friends after freshmen year :) RE: Administration. As stated, I can help with this. I have nothing huge on the horizon(outside of love and marriage) and my work schedule is pretty solid. Week nights are also my free-est nights during the week, so Pairings specifically are tempting. RE: Black market: Not all of it is judgement calls. From what I've seen, a decent 60->80% of it are credit charges taken straight from formulas at pre-set costs. (+skill items, + stat items, etc)
TheMagister 04-03-07, 07:13 PM	{Tentatively} I could be an Elder. I tend to have a much more liberal viewpoint on RAW/Realism issues, though. If we had political parties, I would be the DnD left! {worried} Oooo... TM
MindWandererB 04-03-07, 07:20 PM	RE: Administration. As stated, I can help with this. I have nothing huge on the horizon(outside of love and marriage) and my work schedule is pretty solid. Week nights are also my free-est nights during the week, so Pairings specifically are tempting. RE: Black market: Not all of it is judgement calls. From what I've seen, a decent 60->80% of it are credit charges taken straight from formulas at pre-set costs. (+skill items, + stat items, etc)Enough of it is judgment calls that consistency is called for. The one week I took over before, I did a fair amount of damage just in interpreting things differently. Consider yourself considered for some admin duties, should the need arise.
NiQil 04-03-07, 07:30 PM	{Tentatively} I could be an Elder. I tend to have a much more liberal viewpoint on RAW/Realism issues, though. If we had political parties, I would be the DnD left! {worried} Oooo... TM Not to say that you couldn't, TM, but the last conversation I had with Cat on the subject, both names that we had at the tops of our respective lists for new Elders were Vathelokai (since he is already Scribelords, this is sort of a no-brainer) and/or Zevox. But that was only in relation to filling Pittbull's spot...so I am sure there are many others that would go on that list.
TheMagister 04-03-07, 07:35 PM	Oh, I agree that both would be better choices than I. I'm still relatively new here (being only a year-and-a-half old). I was mostly just remarking on my hesitant willingness to fill a post. TM
MindWandererB 04-03-07, 07:36 PM	Not to say that you couldn't, TM, but the last conversation I had with Cat on the subject, both names that we had at the tops of our respective lists for new Elders were Vathelokai (since he is already Scribelords, this is sort of a no-brainer) and/or Zevox. But that was only in relation to filling Pittbull's spot...so I am sure there are many others that would go on that list. Which reminds me... Pittbull has been absent for a while, so we'd need two new guildmasters for CEF. Sunwolf's activity level is also pretty low, so we'd be looking at Rith, Telin, or Tellish, probably. (renlim is new, and Iced is gone a lot.)
McJarvis 04-03-07, 07:40 PM	Oh, I agree that both would be better choices than I. I'm still relatively new here (being only a year-and-a-half old). I was mostly just remarking on my hesitant willingness to fill a post. TM Join the "New Kids on the Block" club, even though technically I've been "around" longer than anyone but Cat and ToK ;)
MindWandererB 04-03-07, 07:43 PM	And it's less about time, anyway--I've been an elder for months now, and I got here in December of 05--less than a year and a half ago.
McJarvis 04-03-07, 07:45 PM	Nod-> If I wasn't so spastic & would just level a character up to ECL 10, I bet people would take me as serious as they do Zevox... ;):D
SauroGrenom 04-03-07, 07:48 PM	I got here only about 6 months before MWB. I was thinking Vath and Zevox as well. Funny how we all seam to be on the same page...
MindWandererB 04-03-07, 07:50 PM	Yeah, I felt bad for Zevox when Cat offered me the post. I only beat him here by a week....
TheMagister 04-03-07, 07:51 PM	I'll ask here since everyone's watching this thread. Re: Besthirah's tactics - I have a problem with a character being able to start prone if she's surprised. If you're surprised, you haven't had a chance to do anything, even a free action. It's like being ported into the arena before you're ready. I'm going to go ahead and start her off prone (because I have a feeling this has been discussed before), but I wanted to see if I was dis-remembering. TM
McJarvis 04-03-07, 07:52 PM	I'll ask here since everyone's watching this thread. Re: Besthirah's tactics - I have a problem with a character being able to start prone if she's surprised. If you're surprised, you haven't had a chance to do anything, even a free action. It's like being ported into the arena before you're ready. I'm going to go ahead and start her off prone (because I have a feeling this has been discussed before), but I wanted to see if I was dis-remembering. TM She's sleeping, duh. She was caught by supprise, after all!
MindWandererB 04-03-07, 07:54 PM	I'll ask here since everyone's watching this thread. Re: Besthirah's tactics - I have a problem with a character being able to start prone if she's surprised. If you're surprised, you haven't had a chance to do anything, even a free action. It's like being ported into the arena before you're ready. I'm going to go ahead and start her off prone (because I have a feeling this has been discussed before), but I wanted to see if I was dis-remembering. TM And yet, you can start with the items you want in hand, and you can choose whether you want to be mounted, or hovering. So why not prone?
hogarth 04-03-07, 07:54 PM	I'll ask here since everyone's watching this thread. Re: Besthirah's tactics - I have a problem with a character being able to start prone if she's surprised. If you're surprised, you haven't had a chance to do anything, even a free action. It's like being ported into the arena before you're ready. I'm going to go ahead and start her off prone (because I have a feeling this has been discussed before), but I wanted to see if I was dis-remembering. In my opinion, it's no different than starting mounted, or starting with a weapon in hand, or hovering off the ground. None of those are necessarily things you would do if you're relaxing around the house, but this is arena combat, after all. EDIT: MWB ninja'ed me, and he used the same three examples!
Zevox 04-03-07, 07:55 PM	Not to say that you couldn't, TM, but the last conversation I had with Cat on the subject, both names that we had at the tops of our respective lists for new Elders were Vathelokai (since he is already Scribelords, this is sort of a no-brainer) and/or Zevox. But that was only in relation to filling Pittbull's spot...so I am sure there are many others that would go on that list. I was being considered for an Elder spot? Wow - I'm flattered. I hadn't even considered that I may be in the running. I'd figured the candidates for filling Pittbull's spot would be more along the lines of Vath, McJarvis, TM, and maybe Mitza (just maybe because she does have a history of disappearing every now and then). Oh, I agree that both would be better choices than I. I'm still relatively new here (being only a year-and-a-half old). I was mostly just remarking on my hesitant willingness to fill a post. TM Hey, you've been here longer than me. I only joined mid-December last year. I've got a couple of months to go until I hit the year-and-a-half mark. Zevox
TheMagister 04-03-07, 08:04 PM	Re: prone - yeah, that's what I figured. I'd like to see that changed. Being caught by surprise would (to me) mean that you're caught (Hello) unprepared for the attack. So no starting mounted or in a special position (prone, anywhere other than default), no starting with stuff in your hands, etc. All you should get should be whatever you've prebuffed. TM
Zevox 04-03-07, 08:10 PM	@ MWB - Just remembered, you had asked me a while back if I could act as a backup Guildlords, and I couldn't due to school. Well, I get out for summer in a couple of weeks, so if the unthinkable happens and Cat does decide to leave, I can probably lighten your load in that department. Maybe by the time school rolls around again I'd even have gotten used to it enough to not have troubles continuing in the post then. Zevox
MindWandererB 04-03-07, 08:24 PM	That would be much appreciated! It really doesn't take that much, compared to most of the other ways to earn credits.
Vathelokai 04-03-07, 09:26 PM	Not to say that you couldn't, TM, but the last conversation I had with Cat on the subject, both names that we had at the tops of our respective lists for new Elders were Vathelokai (since he is already Scribelords, this is sort of a no-brainer) and/or Zevox. But that was only in relation to filling Pittbull's spot...so I am sure there are many others that would go on that list.Moi? I'm a bit supprised, really. I've said publicly that I didn't have the time for it a couple times, and thought I was pretty much out of the running after going overboard flamming Cat on occasion. I might be able to do it though, though Zevox might be more reliable. I have a tendancy to disappear for days on end and try to get 10 things done on tuesday. Appologies on the rushed quests, btw. And it's less about time, anyway--I've been an elder for months now, and I got here in December of 05--less than a year and a half ago.It's really all about volunteerism. If you start offering to help out with stuff just because you like the place, then you start building up your street cred, which you can spend on custom avatars and titles :D Nod-> If I wasn't so spastic & would just level a character up to ECL 10, I bet people would take me as serious as they do Zevox... ;):DSo that's why we don't respect NiQil..... :P ;)
NiQil 04-04-07, 01:42 AM	So that's why we don't respect NiQil..... :P ;) Funny...I was about to say the same thing. On a lighter note...question: With spells/powers that have casting/manifesting times of 1 round, can you begin to cast those spells and then ready an action to complete the casting at a later time? I.e. start casting the spell as a standard action in one round, and then ready to cast the rest of the spell as a standard action in a future round? Can the above be done with spells/powers with full round casting times, as opposed to 1 round casting times?
MindWandererB 04-04-07, 01:53 AM	Well, let's see: The “start full-round action” standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can’t use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw.A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action.Sorcerers and bards must take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than a regular spell. If a spell’s normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version of the spell is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard.That looks like a yes to me for both. They're both full-round actions (albeit with slightly different mechanics), and neither is in the list of full-round actions that can't be used with the "start full round action" action.
TheMagister 04-04-07, 02:08 AM	I don't think you could. When you use the "start a full round action" standard action, you have to continue the gesturing and invocations involved in the spell non-stop until you've completed the spell. Readying an action to complete the spell says to me that you're stopping at the end and waiting for an opportune moment at which to complete the spell. "These actions must be consecutive and uninterrupted, or the spell automatically fails." That says to me that once you start, you can't stop. Now, you could ready an action to begin casting a full-round spell, but it'd be a round before you complete it. My 2cp. TM
NiQil 04-04-07, 02:10 AM	The reason I ask is that I am looking at classes that summon on a regular basis (druids, wizards, cleric, psions) that would be using spells with 1 round casting times. As an example, if a psion shaper wanted to use a standard action at the beginning of an arena battle to begin creating an astral construct, and then proceed to move around the arena, readying an action each round to complete the creation upon LOS or some other trigger, would this be allowed? Or would the completion of the creation have to be done in the very next round? The wording of your first quote sorta lends itself to both interpretations.
TheMagister 04-04-07, 02:13 AM	"These actions must be consecutive and uninterrupted, or the spell automatically fails." That says to me that once you start, you can't stop. Now, you could ready an action to begin casting a full-round spell, but it'd be a round before you complete it. My 2cp. TM Maybe this?
NiQil 04-04-07, 02:15 AM	Actually, I was referring to this: The “start full-round action” standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action.
hogarth 04-04-07, 02:49 AM	The reason I ask is that I am looking at classes that summon on a regular basis (druids, wizards, cleric, psions) that would be using spells with 1 round casting times. As an example, if a psion shaper wanted to use a standard action at the beginning of an arena battle to begin creating an astral construct, and then proceed to move around the arena, readying an action each round to complete the creation upon LOS or some other trigger, would this be allowed? Or would the completion of the creation have to be done in the very next round? The wording of your first quote sorta lends itself to both interpretations. As TM pointed out, the 1 minute+ casting time example says that all of the actions used for casting must be consecutive and uninterrupted, or the spell automatically fails. So I would say "no".
NiQil 04-04-07, 02:56 AM	As TM pointed out, the 1 minute+ casting time example says that all of the actions used for casting must be consecutive and uninterrupted, or the spell automatically fails. So I would say "no". Except that the spells I am referring to are not +1 minute casting time spells, so I'm not sure if that applies.
MindWandererB 04-04-07, 04:39 AM	Right... for a spell with a casting time of 1 round, you begin casting on your turn, and you continue to be casting until the start of your next turn. I would think that if you used a standard action, you would then be casting until you completed the spell with a second standard action. However, they would indeed have to be consecutive and uninterrupted. So you could start casting in a surprise round, then finish casting and move in round 1. But you could not start casting, move, then next round move again and finish casting.
hogarth 04-04-07, 07:02 AM	In the event that we need to take over for him, we can hope it will only be for a few months. I've given this possibility some thought, and in my mind Cat's duties fall into 3 groups. There's CEF Guildmaster, and his Administrative duties and his Judgment calls. Administrative duties include: Updating the Characters Thread (Roster, Graveyard, Pitlord Record) Updating the Battle Thread (Records and weekly pairings) Judgment duties include: BlackMarket Approvals Character Changes Thread Approvals Rules updates and revisions (including Add-On's) Just a comment -- if the GM's duties get reapportioned, would it be possible to move "Rules updates and revisions (including Add-On's)" to be the Elders' collective responsibility? Cat does such a fantastic job at all the other stuff that I feel like an ungrateful jerk when I mention that adding rules without any sort of consensus has always left a bad taste in my mouth.
McJarvis 04-04-07, 09:00 AM	If a Variant Conjurer with the Rapid Summoning Variant casts a summon monster spell from a scroll, is it a standard or full-round action to cast? What if he scribed the scroll himself?
Abyssal Stalker 04-04-07, 09:03 AM	If a Variant Conjurer with the Rapid Summoning Variant casts a summon monster spell from a scroll, is it a standard or full-round action to cast? What if he scribed the scroll himself? Don't even think about buying Rapid Summoning Scrolls of Summon Monster... :P
McJarvis 04-04-07, 09:07 AM	Don't even think about buying Rapid Summoning Scrolls of Summon Monster... :P In my defense, I am planning on building a rapid summoner :) [not trying to gimp on this one] edit-> My thoughts on the matter is that this works 1 of two ways: 1) Summoning Scrolls are always a full round action to cast 2) Wizards with the Rapid Summoning class feature can cast summon monster spells from scrolls as 1 standard action, since the scroll in question is a spell-completion item...and rapid summoning is a function of completing the spell.
Sunwolf 04-04-07, 10:13 AM	Which reminds me... Pittbull has been absent for a while, so we'd need two new guildmasters for CEF. Sunwolf's activity level is also pretty low, so we'd be looking at Rith, Telin, or Tellish, probably. (renlim is new, and Iced is gone a lot.) Agreed -- my activity level is kind of low so I am hesitant to volunteer for board duties. Writing tactics for two characters a week or 1 and 1 in a campaign uses up most of my available free time. :( Sunwolf
Erithmu 04-04-07, 10:15 AM	In my defense, I am planning on building a rapid summoner :) [not trying to gimp on this one] edit-> My thoughts on the matter is that this works 1 of two ways: 1) Summoning Scrolls are always a full round action to cast 2) Wizards with the Rapid Summoning class feature can cast summon monster spells from scrolls as 1 standard action, since the scroll in question is a spell-completion item...and rapid summoning is a function of completing the spell.For my non-vote I would say that it is #1.
Sunwolf 04-04-07, 10:21 AM	In my defense, I am planning on building a rapid summoner :) [not trying to gimp on this one] edit-> My thoughts on the matter is that this works 1 of two ways: 1) Summoning Scrolls are always a full round action to cast 2) Wizards with the Rapid Summoning class feature can cast summon monster spells from scrolls as 1 standard action, since the scroll in question is a spell-completion item...and rapid summoning is a function of completing the spell. My non-vote on this is 1. I view scrolls and wands as being generic items following the generic rules. So no modifications to level or casting time unless they are made that way (using metamagic). Class features modify how a character casts their own spells not generic items.
McJarvis 04-04-07, 10:25 AM	Alright, I'll treat them as such in my head. I suppose "boost construct" and "augment summoning" would work on scrolls if it were #2, but I know they don't
SauroGrenom 04-04-07, 10:50 AM	I have a somewhat vested interest in this. As far as I understand it I think rapid summoners can cast as a standard action even from a scroll. All scrolls are a standard action to cast unless the spell has a longer casting time. For rapid summoners, the spell does not have a longer casting time, so... it's a standard action to cast them. Basically since the default casting time of a scroll is 1 standard action, and a rapid summoner casts these spells as 1 standard action, the default casting time of the scroll is what's used. There's no need to extend that casting time.
hogarth 04-04-07, 10:52 AM	I have a somewhat vested interest in this. As far as I understand it I think rapid summoners can cast as a standard action even from a scroll. All scrolls are a standard action to cast unless the spell has a longer casting time. For rapid summoners, the spell does not have a longer casting time, so... it's a standard action to cast them. I could see it either way. I'd suggest asking in the Courtroom.
Malither76 04-04-07, 11:30 AM	not to derail current topic, my question is a simple one but I don't know the answer. would it cost credits to craft an oath bow out of another type of bow. the one in the description is a Str +2 bow, but what if the wizard has no strength, it makes a lot of sense to make it out of a normal long bow, or even out of a large +10 bow if you say polymorph yourself into something that could use it. Now of course the bow has to be masterwork but the question is would it cost me credits to make it a different str. adjustment. thanks
hogarth 04-04-07, 11:31 AM	Yes, it would cost credits.
McJarvis 04-04-07, 11:49 AM	I have a somewhat vested interest in this. As far as I understand it I think rapid summoners can cast as a standard action even from a scroll. All scrolls are a standard action to cast unless the spell has a longer casting time. For rapid summoners, the spell does not have a longer casting time, so... it's a standard action to cast them. Basically since the default casting time of a scroll is 1 standard action, and a rapid summoner casts these spells as 1 standard action, the default casting time of the scroll is what's used. There's no need to extend that casting time. I really think it doesn't apply now that I've thought about it. The rapid summoning ability only works if & when _you_ are casting the spell(specific wording). [note that the ability doesn't modify the spell in question, but merely allow you to cast it faster & glean benefits from that. This means the scroll still has that 1-round casting time attatched to it...] If we judge that Spell-completion items like scrolls allow the use of abilities of the user, then as I mentioned before-> augment summoning would also have an effect. Of course, you're pretty good at hammering in points...and my character concept only gets stronger if you're right. ;)
Malither76 04-04-07, 11:54 AM	that doesn't make alot of sense if this cost credits, all your changing is what the enchantment is on not the enchantment. Its still a weopon, its not a different slot on the body. If thats the case then so be it. Could an elder please rule on this or if this type of thing has already been ruled on then ok, what would the cost be 5credits? thanks guys. Remember I have been gone a year. Just trying to get my feet wet again :)
TelinArtho 04-04-07, 11:58 AM	Indri has a similar thing done with the shatterspike enhancement on his adamantine weapon - check the link back to the blackmarket request in his equipment.
SauroGrenom 04-04-07, 11:58 AM	I really think it doesn't apply now that I've thought about it. The rapid summoning ability only works if & when _you_ are casting the spell(specific wording). [note that the ability doesn't modify the spell in question, but merely allow you to cast it faster & glean benefits from that. This means the scroll still has that 1-round casting time attatched to it...]The same wording is applied to when masters share spells with their familiars. If spells from scrolls can be shared with a familiar, then a variant conjurer with rapid summoning should be able to cast summon monster spells from a scroll with a standard action.
Malither76 04-04-07, 12:00 PM	Cool thanks Telin, I will check it out
SauroGrenom 04-04-07, 12:01 PM	I think there was a character who had such a variant oathbow. Luken perhaps.
SauroGrenom 04-04-07, 12:12 PM	I really think it doesn't apply now that I've thought about it. The rapid summoning ability only works if & when _you_ are casting the spell(specific wording). [note that the ability doesn't modify the spell in question, but merely allow you to cast it faster & glean benefits from that. This means the scroll still has that 1-round casting time attatched to it...] I was thinking, and it all comes down to the answer to the following question: When using a scroll, is a caster activating a magic item or casting a spell? (1)If the caster is casting a spell, then they are allowed to use class features and feats that apply to spells cast and they can share the spell with a familiar or animal companion. (2)If the caster is only activating a magic item, then they cannot use class features, feats or share the spell with a familiar or animal companion. Judging from the fact that verbal and somatic components are required to use a scroll, and from the RoTG article that allows spells from scrolls to be shared with a familiar I think there's evidence to support (1).
Malither76 04-04-07, 12:13 PM	Yeah I looked his is weird, He has it as a +1 composite Deepcrystal Oathbow, that he only paid 20700gp for and its not linked to a credit cost, the one with indri, cat paid 20credits for, 5 for related item, it was adamantine instead of steel, 5 for different slot, I guess 2 handed as opposed to one, and 10 for inteligent. To me what I want is the same item, its a bow no different material, its just made to be pulled a little farther or a little less,(being the str. adj.) and its the same slot and everything. I can see 5 credits if I wanted to make it deepcrystal or even say darkwood. the description of it is a +2 composite longbow with a +2 str. So I guess Sauro or Telin, or another elder please make the call on this, Its somthing I won't be doing for about a month anyways just wanted to clarify so I know then. thanks again
SauroGrenom 04-04-07, 12:29 PM	The book Oathbow costs 25600gp. It's a +2 composite long bow (str+2). The +2 composite longbow (+2Str) is worth 8600gp. So the Oathbow property is worth 17000gp. Add that on top of any desired base magical bow. If I remember correctly, Luken adds that onto a deepcrystal +1 composite bow (+3str). The base magical bow is worth 3700gp. I think Luken's bow would cost 5 credits.
TelinArtho 04-04-07, 12:36 PM	The book Oathbow costs 25600gp. It's a +2 composite long bow (str+2). The +2 composite longbow (+2Str) is worth 8600gp. So the Oathbow property is worth 17000gp. Add that on top of any desired base magical bow. If I remember correctly, Luken adds that onto a deepcrystal +1 composite bow (+3str). The base magical bow is worth 3700gp. I think Luken's bow would cost 5 credits. I would agree with that assessment.
McJarvis 04-04-07, 12:49 PM	I was thinking, and it all comes down to the answer to the following question: When using a scroll, is a caster activating a magic item or casting a spell? (1)If the caster is casting a spell, then they are allowed to use class features and feats that apply to spells cast and they can share the spell with a familiar or animal companion. (2)If the caster is only activating a magic item, then they cannot use class features, feats or share the spell with a familiar or animal companion. Judging from the fact that verbal and somatic components are required to use a scroll, and from the RoTG article that allows spells from scrolls to be shared with a familiar I think there's evidence to support (1). If we can agree that this is the over-arching reason why rapid summoning works on scrolls, I will whole-heartedly agree. I just didn't want to make a "house-rule/decision" for one particular example. The RotG article on spell-sharing with familiars makes perfect sense. Though, now that I think about it, feats might still not be fair-game. After all, the spell doesn't use your primary casting stat. (??-> not sure what language I would use to make a distinction between RotG and the casting stat thing)
Malither76 04-04-07, 12:54 PM	so mine too, if it is a +2 large composit bow +5 str, cost is 9000, +17000 for oathbow would cost me 5 credits as well then right. I will be buying the bow sepratly of course for the 1000gp and then doing all the magic crafting my self so 12500gp, for an end result of 13500gp 1000xp, and 5 credits. I was just using the xp cost under the description I ddin't figure up myself.
SauroGrenom 04-04-07, 12:58 PM	There's no xp cost to craft in CoCo. I haven't checked the numbers for you, but that's the approach. I'd charge 5 credits for such an item.
TelinArtho 04-04-07, 12:59 PM	Well - xp costs for crafting have been done away with - so no need to worry about it. Base bow: (100gp + 500 (str))*2 (large) + 300 (MA) = 1500gp 12500gp to craft it all - that is correct. Looks like you just missed on the base bow cost.
MindWandererB 04-04-07, 02:11 PM	The book Oathbow costs 25600gp. It's a +2 composite long bow (str+2). The +2 composite longbow (+2Str) is worth 8600gp. So the Oathbow property is worth 17000gp. Add that on top of any desired base magical bow. If I remember correctly, Luken adds that onto a deepcrystal +1 composite bow (+3str). The base magical bow is worth 3700gp. I think Luken's bow would cost 5 credits. Be very careful when assigning gp values to weapons and armor. The Oathbow could be a +2 composite [+2] longbow plus 17,000. Or it could be a +2 composite [+2] longbow, plus a +1 equivalent ability, plus 7000. Doesn't matter when you're just modifying the base bow, but it could matter if you decide to make one with a different enhancement bonus, or another ability.
One_Marine 04-04-07, 02:23 PM	Just wondering, but lets say that I keep my characters active every week. One of them always wins and the other always loses. Could I use money from my winning character to buy stuff for my losing character?
Erithmu 04-04-07, 02:24 PM	Just wondering, but lets say that I keep my characters active every week. One of them always wins and the other always loses. Could I use money from my winning character to buy stuff for my losing character? No ... Each character is it's own entity
Macbrea 04-04-07, 02:25 PM	Nope. All character money belongs only to that character. You have to keep track accounting wise of every coin. It results in later in character carreer auditors cross checking to make sure your exact on your accounting. Odd, I know. but it is to prevent serious abuses.
One_Marine 04-04-07, 02:46 PM	Ok, thanks y'all.
SauroGrenom 04-04-07, 04:52 PM	Be very careful when assigning gp values to weapons and armor. The Oathbow could be a +2 composite [+2] longbow plus 17,000. Or it could be a +2 composite [+2] longbow, plus a +1 equivalent ability, plus 7000. Doesn't matter when you're just modifying the base bow, but it could matter if you decide to make one with a different enhancement bonus, or another ability.I cannot think of a precedent for an item that is a +X equivalent on the enhancement bonus with an additional gp price increase. If you can find one, then I'd be more inclined to believe you. As far as I know it, all weapon effects are either enhancement equivalents, or gp value increases... Not ever both. In this case, if the value of the bow was such that it's priced exactly as a +X bow, then we would need to decide if the oathbow effect is worth an enhancement bonus or gp value. Since that's not the case I think we're better off saying its only a gp value effect.
One_Marine 04-04-07, 05:08 PM	Could I get someone to check over Kole (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11973658&postcount=1102) and Jesse (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11979592&postcount=1103) for any major flaws I may have missed? I'd appreciate it.
SauroGrenom 04-04-07, 05:32 PM	For Kole, I can say you are a melee warrior. You won't get any chance in combat to spend a full round regaining psionic focus, so that narrow mind feat is a waste. You're better off with the psicrystal/crystal containment feats to get an extra psionic focus. Or go with psionic meditation for a move action regain focus (although using that's also rare on a melee character). Generally melee characters have 3 problems that they must overcome. 1: You must be able to force melee. This means high movement speeds, and nothing beats a good mount for that. There's a reason the psiwarrior has Ride as a class skill. 2: You must be able to find your opponent. This means that hiding or invisible or otherwise obscured characters must be located. Scent, Touchsight, See Invisibility, good listen or spot checks, blindsense and similar features are really helpfull for finding those who don't want to be found. A good mount will have scent, and dogs have track as well. 3: You must survive until you can force melee. While trying to get into melee, you will be an easy target. You'll face range spells, arrows, snipe attacks, or spring attacking foes who are trying to evade melee. As a non-caster/non-sneak you will need to soak that damage and make those saving throws to survive till you can bring melee. Look at doing things to improve your saves and/or HP.
One_Marine 04-04-07, 05:42 PM	Hehe, sorry, I meant flaws as in if I didn't put something on the sheet that should be there, or put too much stuff...things along those lines, but thank you for your analysis. I suppose you are working on Jesse now, and if you are, thanks. If not, that's cool, I see how you analyzed Kole, and can go over Jesse and do the same.
SauroGrenom 04-04-07, 06:13 PM	For Jesse, Rogues are hard to pull off in the CoCo setting. Human rogues are doubly so. Your hide and move silently are not nearly high enough to allow for an effective snipe strategy. In fact I cannot see your strategy at all. What's the "trick"? Most CoCo characters have at least one "trick" that the opponents must somehow neutralize in order to survive and use their own "trick". For Kole the trick is his psionic weapon attack and over sized weapons for high damage output. Some characters have many tricks, and that usually makes for an effective build. With this character, I see moderate melee ability, moderate ranged ability, moderate AC and a host of various skills, but no grappling ability and no spell casting, and no immunities. What are you planning on doing with this character against say a mounted ECL3 barbarian? Or against an ECL3 Druid? Or against an ECL3 Wizard with invisibility and Web followed by wand of Magic Missile? Don't get me wrong. I think you've put together a good basic rogue that would really fill a niche in a party. But I also invite you to think about how you're going to combat the major build classifications. I wrote a thing about a year ago about CoCo Archetypes. I don't know where it went, but the major types were: Melee Monster (Usually mounted) Grapple God CoD (Cleric or Druid) Blaster (Wizard, sorcerer, psion, wilder using direct damage or save-or-die spells) Sneak ZooKeeper Gish (bit of everything usually multi-classed and/or magic domain clerics) Each has it's weaknesses and strengths. It may be worthwhile thinking about how a combat against each of them would go to your advantage or disadvantage. Cheers, Sauro
One_Marine 04-04-07, 06:36 PM	Thanks a lot. That really helped me. I wasn't really sure what I wanted Jesse to do, so I kind of just threw things together. I will be going back and re-working Jesse quite a bit, as well as tweaking Kole. Would you mind if we continued talking about character creation over pms when I'm finished?
Eluria 04-04-07, 07:22 PM	I wrote a thing about a year ago about CoCo Archetypes. I don't know where it went, but the major types were: Melee Monster (Usually mounted) Grapple God CoD (Cleric or Druid) Blaster (Wizard, sorcerer, psion, wilder using direct damage or save-or-die spells) Sneak ZooKeeper Gish (bit of everything usually multi-classed and/or magic domain clerics) Each has it's weaknesses and strengths. It may be worthwhile thinking about how a combat against each of them would go to your advantage or disadvantage. Cheers, Sauro I think this may be it?
Horatius 04-04-07, 07:30 PM	Is there any rule against changing alignment before a character becomes active at ECL 3? Specifically, could I build a Bbn1/Mnk2 who's alignment is now non-lawful (allowing him to rage)? Of course, he won't be able to progress as a monk.
MindWandererB 04-04-07, 07:33 PM	Guild Alert The good news is, Cat sent in CEF's GAPs for the week, so there's a 1-week hiatus on getting a new (backup) guildmaster. The bad news is, he reminded me that the maps are going to need updating. They were created in Fractal Mapper, and can be easily edited using that. Now, I don't own Fractal Mapper, and I don't at this time feel like shelling out the $35 for it. But it's a popular program, so I'm hoping someone else has it. Cat also suggests that whoever takes this job on should have their own website and some html knowledge, although I'm not sure why. Putting the map up on Photobucket should work fine.... Is there anyone interested in this, assuming Cat doesn't return? It would be worth credits... perhaps one a month, since it's an easy job if you have the program.
Zevox 04-04-07, 07:33 PM	Is there any rule against changing alignment before a character becomes active at ECL 3? Specifically, could I build a Bbn1/Mnk2 who's alignment is now non-lawful (allowing him to rage)? Of course, he won't be able to progress as a monk. Thats allowed, yep (in fact, a few players have done just that before, though I don't think anyone played one past level 3 or 4). Any alterations you want can be presumed to occur to your character before his first activation here. Zevox
MindWandererB 04-04-07, 07:33 PM	Is there any rule against changing alignment before a character becomes active at ECL 3? Specifically, could I build a Bbn1/Mnk2 who's alignment is now non-lawful (allowing him to rage)? Of course, he won't be able to progress as a monk. That is both legal and popular. Edit: Ninja'd... but remember NiQil's Four Footmen of the Apocalypse.
NiQil 04-04-07, 07:37 PM	Is there any rule against changing alignment before a character becomes active at ECL 3? Specifically, could I build a Bbn1/Mnk2 who's alignment is now non-lawful (allowing him to rage)? Of course, he won't be able to progress as a monk. Nope...for examples of this, see the Gladius Graveyard in the Character's thread. My Four Horsemen all started as barbarians, but became lawful at ECL 3, therefore becoming ex-barbarians. In your example, however, monk's do not lose class features by becoming non-lawful or by multi-classing...they simply cannot progress as a monk any longer. So if your monk levels were first, then that is all of the monk levels you would be able to take. If the barb level was first, then you could continue to progress in monk levels.
Zevox 04-04-07, 07:47 PM	That is both legal and popular. Edit: Ninja'd... but remember NiQil's Four Footmen of the Apocalypse. I was thinking specifically of Barbarian/Monks, not just ex-Barbarians in general - don't think anyone has taken one of them very far, but I know we've seen a few. Zevox
SauroGrenom 04-04-07, 07:56 PM	Thanks a lot. That really helped me. I wasn't really sure what I wanted Jesse to do, so I kind of just threw things together. I will be going back and re-working Jesse quite a bit, as well as tweaking Kole. Would you mind if we continued talking about character creation over pms when I'm finished? Sure. You can send me PM's whenever you like. I'm always happy to share my thoughts. Although it falls on you to decide if you believe what I say.
McJarvis 04-04-07, 08:00 PM	Cat also suggests that whoever takes this job on should have their own website and some html knowledge, although I'm not sure why. Putting the map up on Photobucket should work fine.... Memories of XXXX'd out photobucket pics due to too much traffic come to mind... Perhaps a deviant art account? :)
MindWandererB 04-04-07, 08:03 PM	Memories of XXXX'd out photobucket pics due to too much traffic come to mind... Perhaps a deviant art account? :) You think the Guild Hall and World of Gladius threads get that much traffic? I doubt it.
One_Marine 04-04-07, 08:08 PM	Sure. You can send me PM's whenever you like. I'm always happy to share my thoughts. Although it falls on you to decide if you believe what I say. Well, you seem to know what you're talking about, so I think I'll risk believing what you say, hehe.
McJarvis 04-04-07, 08:34 PM	You think the Guild Hall and World of Gladius threads get that much traffic? I doubt it. We'll have to see. I don't remember how sensitive to regular forum traffic photobucket is.
One_Marine 04-04-07, 08:48 PM	This 1/3 rule makes almost no sense to me. Here's the way I see it (I'll be using powerpoints in my example). A character has a total of 30 pp to spend between each of their three fights in a cycle, or 10 pp a fight. The most they can use in fight 1 is 10, fight 2 is 20, assuming none are used in fight 1, and fight 3 is 30 assuming again that none are used in fights 1 or 2. What if, however, after going through a few cycles, the player notices their character uses all 10 pp in fight 1, but has pp to spare after fights 2 and 3. Wouldn't it make more sense to allow a character to use whatever amount of pp they need in any given fight, up to the total they have to spend? It would work the same way; players would put how many pp they have remaining for their next fight (if any), and if they run out, then they are incapable of manifesting powers (or whatever you use your pp for) in the next fight. For prepared spells, it would work the same way as written; once a spell is used, it can't be used again until the cycle is over. I don't know, that's just my two cents. I don't mean to try and disrupt anything or cause a fervor or somesuch, it just doesn't make sense to me to place such a restriction on characters.
McJarvis 04-04-07, 08:50 PM	I'm actually not aware that there is any *good* reason for the rules we have in place in regards to the 1/3 rule. That it has always been seems good enough, and I as a wizard try to only spend 1/3 of my spells in my first fight anyway.
MindWandererB 04-04-07, 08:56 PM	There is a reason for it: it's to prevent enthusiasts. If a player has the patience to save their resources for a fight, then so be it--they've earned their advantage. But someone who goes all out on an unsuspecting victim in their first fight makes for a situation that's no fun for anyone. And after that, the offender has the choice of being doomed to failure for two fights--no fun for them--or retiring the character, which is grossly unfair.
Tellish_of_Ket 04-04-07, 08:56 PM	This 1/3 rule makes almost no sense to me. Here's the way I see it (I'll be using powerpoints in my example). A character has a total of 30 pp to spend between each of their three fights in a cycle, or 10 pp a fight. The most they can use in fight 1 is 10, fight 2 is 20, assuming none are used in fight 1, and fight 3 is 30 assuming again that none are used in fights 1 or 2. What if, however, after going through a few cycles, the player notices their character uses all 10 pp in fight 1, but has pp to spare after fights 2 and 3. Wouldn't it make more sense to allow a character to use whatever amount of pp they need in any given fight, up to the total they have to spend? It would work the same way; players would put how many pp they have remaining for their next fight (if any), and if they run out, then they are incapable of manifesting powers (or whatever you use your pp for) in the next fight. For prepared spells, it would work the same way as written; once a spell is used, it can't be used again until the cycle is over. I don't know, that's just my two cents. I don't mean to try and disrupt anything or cause a fervor or somesuch, it just doesn't make sense to me to place such a restriction on characters. That was my original suggestion way way way back. I think i was the only one in favour, and it would seem the same today. If any momentum can be given to the idea, i'd back it up. It's the same as the reverse. If someone doesn't use any PP in F1/F2, they get to kick butt in F3. What's wrong with kicking but in F1...but slacking in F2/F3? Same thing imho. ToK
Zevox 04-04-07, 08:59 PM	*shrugs* The 1/3 rule was originally put in place before the 3-fight-cycle existed, and was intended simply to prevent wizards from being able to blow all their spells in a single fight with no drawbacks (which had made them overpowering before that rule was implemented). With the 3-fight-cycle, you're right, it seems redundant. A number of us were hoping the cycle would let us revoke that rule, but Cat wanted to keep it so players couldn't go nova in their first fight (strangely though, its fine if they do in fight 3 if they still have many spell/pp left). As is, unless our new GM decides to revoke it, we're stuck with it. Its not that bad, really. All it does is enforce a mandatory limitation on you for your first fight or two that most players would normally want to observe anyway so they don't find themselves short of power in later fights. Zevox
Yitzi 04-04-07, 09:02 PM	Question: If my weapon is sundered, do I get it back for the next battle or only at the end of the 3FC?
MindWandererB 04-04-07, 09:03 PM	It seems redundant, but it isn't, really. Has to do with human nature. It's a lot more tempting to go all-out now and face the consequences later (immediate gratification) than save up for a fight or two for an advantage later on, in a fight you might have been able to win anyway (delayed and uncertain gratification). @Yitzi: Next fight.
NiQil 04-04-07, 09:04 PM	Question: If my weapon is sundered, do I get it back for the next battle or only at the end of the 3FC? Next battle
One_Marine 04-04-07, 09:18 PM	That was my original suggestion way way way back. I think i was the only one in favour, and it would seem the same today. If any momentum can be given to the idea, i'd back it up. It's the same as the reverse. If someone doesn't use any PP in F1/F2, they get to kick butt in F3. What's wrong with kicking but in F1...but slacking in F2/F3? Same thing imho. ToK Hehe, I'll pm you about this. *shrugs* The 1/3 rule was originally put in place before the 3-fight-cycle existed, and was intended simply to prevent wizards from being able to blow all their spells in a single fight with no drawbacks (which had made them overpowering before that rule was implemented). With the 3-fight-cycle, you're right, it seems redundant. A number of us were hoping the cycle would let us revoke that rule, but Cat wanted to keep it so players couldn't go nova in their first fight (strangely though, its fine if they do in fight 3 if they still have many spell/pp left). As is, unless our new GM decides to revoke it, we're stuck with it. Its not that bad, really. All it does is enforce a mandatory limitation on you for your first fight or two that most players would normally want to observe anyway so they don't find themselves short of power in later fights. Zevox Well, then who is our new GM? Or are we still waiting on Caterane's decision? It seems redundant, but it isn't, really. Has to do with human nature. It's a lot more tempting to go all-out now and face the consequences later (immediate gratification) than save up for a fight or two for an advantage later on, in a fight you might have been able to win anyway (delayed and uncertain gratification). I understand where you're coming from on the human nature/gratification idea, but shouldn't it be for the player to experiment and decide when the best time to use his character's resources is?
Zevox 04-04-07, 09:20 PM	Well, then who is our new GM? Or are we still waiting on Caterane's decision? MindWandererB. Zevox
McJarvis 04-04-07, 09:20 PM	I understand where you're coming from on the human nature/gratification idea, but shouldn't it be for the player to experiment and decide when the best time to use his character's resources is? Not when his experiments are at the cost of other players having fun.
templer10 04-04-07, 09:23 PM	Not when his experiments are at the cost of other players having fun. BTw 1 other good thing about the 1/3 rule is knowing How much spell levels/pps the other guy can throw at you so you can plan for it.
hogarth 04-04-07, 09:50 PM	BTw 1 other good thing about the 1/3 rule is knowing How much spell levels/pps the other guy can throw at you so you can plan for it. Indeed, that is one of the better arguments that I've heard in favour of it. It's the same with the rule for having to specify a form for Polymorph spell scrolls -- without such a rule, tactics would have to be super-long to handle every possible contingency.
TelinArtho 04-04-07, 09:53 PM	@Rauul - about your familiar (discussion should be kept out of the prison) Its not so much a thing of credits for the familiar as it is not cut and dry about whether it is allowed at all. I know someone was working on an expanded list, but it hasn't been posted to my knowledge and the other familiars certainly haven't been approved yet. Now - I am not opposed to it - but at the moment - yes your familiar is illegal. As to any posting in the tavern - all I can say is a lack of response doesn't give you permission.
One_Marine 04-04-07, 10:00 PM	Not when his experiments are at the cost of other players having fun. If that's the case, then wouldn't going "supernova," as it was put, in the last fight be doing the same thing? All the rule is doing is saying a character can't blow his resources here and now. I'm not saying everyone would do that were the rule not in effect, but they would have the optionto, along with more freedom, and isn't that what's important? I guess I just used a bad example. I really just meant to say I think players should have the choice of when to burn their resources. If they want to burn out at the first moment, then that's a hole they'll have to dig theirselves out of later. BTw 1 other good thing about the 1/3 rule is knowing How much spell levels/pps the other guy can throw at you so you can plan for it. To me that takes some of the fun out of it. That's almost like picking a fight or betting on something because you know you can almost always win. I mean yes, there's still the chance that you can overlook a detail or miss a piece of information, but nothing's 100%. Again, all this is just my thoughts and opinions, although I would not be against having the rule appealed, and will actively pursue that goal if I can get support.
McJarvis 04-04-07, 10:03 PM	I think the overarcing point is this: No primary caster saves all their PP/spells for their last fight. Since this is the case, why would they ever want to use them all in their first fight? The only reason can be a lack of fore-sight, in which case these rules are doing you a favor. Unless you just really enjoy ruining the CoCo in general(which is what would happen if people started making characters, using no spells/pp the first two fights, and then going nova on the third). As it stands, "going nova" is a very rare event.
hogarth 04-04-07, 10:11 PM	Unless you just really enjoy ruining the CoCo in general(which is what would happen if people started making characters, using no spells/pp the first two fights, and then going nova on the third). As it stands, "going nova" is a very rare event. I don't think it's that rare, but usually the big fight #3 is more due to surrenders, failed save-or-dies, or no-shows in the first couple of fights than intentionally losing (in my experience).
One_Marine 04-04-07, 10:20 PM	Indeed, that is one of the better arguments that I've heard in favour of it. It's the same with the rule for having to specify a form for Polymorph spell scrolls -- without such a rule, tactics would have to be super-long to handle every possible contingency. That's just it; a person can't possibly cover every contingency possible. And if they could, then there would never be any conflict. Look at it like this; you are a player in a paintball game, and you, your teammates and your opponents are each given 1000 paintballs. However, everyone is limited to using 1/3 of their ammo. You and your team are good at laying down heavy paint, and your opponents are good at sneaking up and getting in close. The restriction hurts your team, but not the other team. Now, spellcasters, manifesters and the like are your team, and meleeists and other classes that don't rely heavily on spells or powerpoints are the opposing team. See what I'm getting at? It's a rule that restricts only half the spectrum, and thus isn't really fair.
One_Marine 04-04-07, 10:28 PM	I think the overarcing point is this: No primary caster saves all their PP/spells for their last fight. Since this is the case, why would they ever want to use them all in their first fight? The only reason can be a lack of fore-sight, in which case these rules are doing you a favor. Unless you just really enjoy ruining the CoCo in general(which is what would happen if people started making characters, using no spells/pp the first two fights, and then going nova on the third). As it stands, "going nova" is a very rare event. I'm not saying that people intentionally save their resources for their last fight, but I'm sure there have been instances when a luck shot or a good critical has ended a fight only a few rounds after its start, thus allowing the caster to have additional resources in the next fight. And I'm sure there are more than a few players who, after seeing they lost thought "If only I could have cast one more magic missile, I would have won."
TheMagister 04-04-07, 10:29 PM	Heh. {Monsieur Hood} "If only that goblin didn't have 63 pp, I wouldn't have been Ego Whipped to oblivion..." :D
One_Marine 04-04-07, 10:39 PM	Heh. {Monsieur Hood} "If only that goblin didn't have 63 pp, I wouldn't have been Ego Whipped to oblivion..." :D Hehe. I will admit, it make it a little harder for non-casters, but that just means people will need to get more creative.
TheMagister 04-04-07, 10:42 PM	{Mock-bitterly - like an old man reminiscing about a fight he almost won} Oh, Hood almost had that over-charged goblin, too... debacle Still made it a good fight. All I needed was one or two more arrows. I'd take that rematch now that Hood has Manyshot. Mmmm... Ready action goodness. TM
Zevox 04-04-07, 10:44 PM	Heh. {Monsieur Hood} "If only that goblin didn't have 63 pp, I wouldn't have been Ego Whipped to oblivion..." :D *shrugs* It was an all vs all - he needed the extra juice to begin with (which is one reason I feel the 1/3 rule should be revoked - casters could really use the option to use more of their power in those, rather than facing a forced loss because 1/3 their power is only enough to eliminate one or if they're lucky two of their foes). But you can't exactly blame me for that happening - I surrendered a fight because it had been held over for 3 weeks, and was about to go into the 4th, then had some good luck in the second fight and leveled up then. It was a unique combination that turned out to yield a hefty surplus of power. Zevox
MindWandererB 04-04-07, 10:46 PM	I'm not saying that people intentionally save their resources for their last fight, but I'm sure there have been instances when a luck shot or a good critical has ended a fight only a few rounds after its start, thus allowing the caster to have additional resources in the next fight. And I'm sure there are more than a few players who, after seeing they lost thought "If only I could have cast one more magic missile, I would have won." I for one don't mind "rewarding" a character who goes down to a lucky (or otherwise quick) kill in an earlier fight. As for the latter: yes, that's true. But they get that one extra magic missile, they're gaining a disproportionate, and unearned, advantage against their current opponent. If your character is in the habit of losing fights by one magic missile, then it's your responsibility to save that one magic missile from an earlier fight (if you were going to lose it anyway) to allow you to win later on. The down side is when you have a gish that sometimes needs spells and sometimes doesn't. Take Aerryl, for instance. In her fight against Jur, the best thing she could do was skip her spells and go straight for the archery. She would have done the same even if she were in Fight 3, but as a result, she gets "rewarded" and has 40 spell levels available next fight. On the other hand, can you imagine the IMT without a 1/3 rule? The best character would probably lose in round 1 if their opponents were willing to blow whatever it took. Mutually assured destruction is better than suicide. I can see both sides. But this game has to be fun for as many people as possible, as often as possible. If a character can go nova without the delayed gratification, it increases the likelihood of creating unfun situations all around. When the 3FC was first imtroduced, we debated this at length. We considered using the 1/3 rule for all fights (rather than 1/2 plus leftovers). We considered rewarding extra XP and/or GP to characters who lasted longer. And we considered taking away the 1/3 rule altogether. All had downsides we wanted to avoid. And one thing I will strongly be against is removing the 1/3 rule for new characters, especially at ECL 3. I do not want new characters to come in, blow their resources on another character trying to go the distance, then retire or quit. Or almost as bad, trying to go on and realizing it's impossible--there are few things as discouraging as knowing that a previous mistake is going to make you pay for a while. The 1/3 rule enforces resource management, especially at the point where it's most important to enforce. And once new players learn the rule, then why remove it? Edit: Free-for-alls do mess up the balance--they strongly favor warriors and rogues. But the elimination of the 1/3 rule in FFAs would be like handing the keys over to the casters--they just dominate too much without that restriction.
TheMagister 04-04-07, 10:47 PM	Blame you? Heck no, I don't blame you. I don't take any shame from the loss, either. It's not every day that you almost beat someone that's about 150% more prepared than you are single-handedly (darned psions with 101 hp and Ego-Whip...). I took a large measure of pride away from that contest. :)
Zevox 04-04-07, 10:56 PM	Hehe. I will admit, it make it a little harder for non-casters, but that just means people will need to get more creative. A little harder? You should hear some of the horror stories a few of the folgies used to throw around about the days before the 1/3 rule or the 3-fight-cycle. Basically, if you weren't a spellcaster, you lost if you fought anyone who was. Period. Casters getting their full power in a single fight is definitely overpowering. Its just a question of whether the 3-fight-cycle is a sufficient fix for that itself - some, like myself, feel it is; others, like MWB (apparantly), feel it isn't. {Mock-bitterly - like an old man reminiscing about a fight he almost won} Oh, Hood almost had that over-charged goblin, too... debacle Still made it a good fight. All I needed was one or two more arrows. I'd take that rematch now that Hood has Manyshot. Mmmm... Ready action goodness. TM About that rematch - I'm afraid it'll be delayed most likely. Don't know if you've noticed the RP over in PSI, but Istima is going to be leading a campaign for them soon. Gonna be a while before we get the chance to do that. Besides, that readied action won't be so hot anyway, vs Istima's concentration. +30 at level 10, with resist 20 all elements from energy adaptation rendering dissolving weapon stones useless, plus all the attack bonus you lose manyshooting vs Istima's touch AC (won't divulge details, but touch AC 24 isn't unlikely at that level)... well, lets just say that such a rematch won't be so clear-cut as you're hoping ;) . Zevox
Sutro 04-04-07, 11:19 PM	Here's a relatively elegant solution (I think.) For psionic characters in 3-man fights, they get a bonus to their normally utilizable power points equal to half the number they received for their last level, rounded up. Casters get back either one spell (in the case of wizard/cleric) or one slot (in the case of sorceror) of their highest level spell level they're able to cast. Neither of these count against their normal limit, it's simply a one-time bonus for that fight. In 4-man, it's even simpler. It counts as two fights in the 3FC for all characters involved, with PP/casting spend accordingly. Thoughts? -Sutro
sonofzeal 04-04-07, 11:19 PM	Just to verify something - in Monster fights, I should reroll autoloss/autowin monsters, right? Say, skeletons vs some who depends on Sleep, or the same skeletons vs someone with Levitate and a sling?
One_Marine 04-04-07, 11:20 PM	I for one don't mind "rewarding" a character who goes down to a lucky (or otherwise quick) kill in an earlier fight. As for the latter: yes, that's true. But they get that one extra magic missile, they're gaining a disproportionate, and unearned, advantage against their current opponent. If your character is in the habit of losing fights by one magic missile, then it's your responsibility to save that one magic missile from an earlier fight (if you were going to lose it anyway) to allow you to win later on. The down side is when you have a gish that sometimes needs spells and sometimes doesn't. Take Aerryl, for instance. In her fight against Jur, the best thing she could do was skip her spells and go straight for the archery. She would have done the same even if she were in Fight 3, but as a result, she gets "rewarded" and has 40 spell levels available next fight. On the other hand, can you imagine the IMT without a 1/3 rule? The best character would probably lose in round 1 if their opponents were willing to blow whatever it took. Mutually assured destruction is better than suicide. I can see both sides. But this game has to be fun for as many people as possible, as often as possible. If a character can go nova without the delayed gratification, it increases the likelihood of creating unfun situations all around. When the 3FC was first imtroduced, we debated this at length. We considered using the 1/3 rule for all fights (rather than 1/2 plus leftovers). We considered rewarding extra XP and/or GP to characters who lasted longer. And we considered taking away the 1/3 rule altogether. All had downsides we wanted to avoid. And one thing I will strongly be against is removing the 1/3 rule for new characters, especially at ECL 3. I do not want new characters to come in, blow their resources on another character trying to go the distance, then retire or quit. Or almost as bad, trying to go on and realizing it's impossible--there are few things as discouraging as knowing that a previous mistake is going to make you pay for a while. The 1/3 rule enforces resource management, especially at the point where it's most important to enforce. And once new players learn the rule, then why remove it? Edit: Free-for-alls do mess up the balance--they strongly favor warriors and rogues. But the elimination of the 1/3 rule in FFAs would be like handing the keys over to the casters--they just dominate too much without that restriction. Ok, I can see where you're coming from.
SauroGrenom 04-04-07, 11:26 PM	Just to verify something - in Monster fights, I should reroll autoloss/autowin monsters, right? Say, skeletons vs some who depends on Sleep, or the same skeletons vs someone with Levitate and a sling? From what I understand, you only reroll when the monster will auto loose. So the skeletons won't be rerolled against the sleep guy.
SauroGrenom 04-04-07, 11:46 PM	I'm looking at the WarMind class... and dang it seriously rocks.
One_Marine 04-04-07, 11:47 PM	Hehe, yea it does. I'm thinking of taking Kole into it.
TelinArtho 04-04-07, 11:59 PM	Here's a relatively elegant solution (I think.) For psionic characters in 3-man fights, they get a bonus to their normally utilizable power points equal to half the number they received for their last level, rounded up. Casters get back either one spell (in the case of wizard/cleric) or one slot (in the case of sorceror) of their highest level spell level they're able to cast. Neither of these count against their normal limit, it's simply a one-time bonus for that fight. In 4-man, it's even simpler. It counts as two fights in the 3FC for all characters involved, with PP/casting spend accordingly. Thoughts? -Sutro So this elegant solution of yours - what happens to 4-man fights where some or all are in the last fight of their cycle? Just to put my voice in here - I like the combination of the 3FC with the 1/3 rule. Yes both took some adjustment to get used to - but I don't think it is necessarily handing victory to warriors and spelling defeat to casters in multi-person fights. Resource management is just one of many factors to consider in the CoCo. Some may not like others may like it more that others. What I can say is that very few would walk away for disgust of the 3FC, while comparatively more would if the casters were granted their "nova" at a drop of a hat.
One_Marine 04-05-07, 12:08 AM	Ok, one question about pp; if I have 7 total pp, when I divide by three and round up, would that allow me 3 pp per fight or would it be 3, 2 and 2?
Erithmu 04-05-07, 12:44 AM	I'm looking at the WarMind class... and dang it seriously rocks. Pretty much ... Insight bonuses to Str and Con DR Free Cleave (without the restriction of dropping someone) Full BAB d10 HD Only downside is the limited number of powers known ... but then again your a fighter anyways. To be honest Im not quite sure why you haven't looked at it before with Kracknol, Raskos, (and to a lesser extent) Retikos are all characters w/ psionics. Not to mention the whole ... PSI Guildmaster thing.
Vathelokai 04-05-07, 12:54 AM	Ok, one question about pp; if I have 7 total pp, when I divide by three and round up, would that allow me 3 pp per fight or would it be 3, 2 and 2? 3pp in the first, 3 in the second, whatever's left in the third fight. Yeah, you can walk into the last fight with 1 pp left.
TheMagister 04-05-07, 12:59 AM	Pretty much ... Insight bonuses to Str and Con DR Free Cleave (without the restriction of dropping someone) Full BAB d10 HD Only downside is the limited number of powers known ... but then again your a fighter anyways. To be honest Im not quite sure why you haven't looked at it before with Kracknol, Raskos, (and to a lesser extent) Retikos are all characters w/ psionics. Not to mention the whole ... PSI Guildmaster thing. That's where Tessero Valis is goin'. I figure it doesn't get a whole lot cooler for a melee build than mass-tripping, mass-deep impacting, mass-power attacking. ... Well, add bard buffs, and that's cooler. ;)
Sutro 04-05-07, 01:08 AM	Re: Elegant solution; When they're in the last fight of the 3FC, the spare fight rolls into the next 3FC. So they'd start their next 3FC on second fight. -Sutro
Erithmu 04-05-07, 01:14 AM	That's where Tessero Valis is goin'. I figure it doesn't get a whole lot cooler for a melee build than mass-tripping, mass-deep impacting, mass-power attacking. ... Well, add bard buffs, and that's cooler. ;) I dunno an expanding half dragon is pretty cool too.
TheMagister 04-05-07, 01:19 AM	As long as he also mass-trips and mass-power attacks and mass-deep impacts, they yeah, he's cool. :D
One_Marine 04-05-07, 01:32 AM	How much does an Elixir of Hiding cost? I can't seem to find it.
Malither76 04-05-07, 01:37 AM	250gp, and back a couple pages ago, so you don't spend xp to craft any more, I buil Malik a year ago remember so do I just add his xp back to him and delete it from the items he used it on?
Zevox 04-05-07, 01:38 AM	Here's a relatively elegant solution (I think.) For psionic characters in 3-man fights, they get a bonus to their normally utilizable power points equal to half the number they received for their last level, rounded up. Casters get back either one spell (in the case of wizard/cleric) or one slot (in the case of sorceror) of their highest level spell level they're able to cast. Neither of these count against their normal limit, it's simply a one-time bonus for that fight. Um, no. Giving casters a boost to their already-high power is not what we want to do. That just gives them more advantages than they already enjoy unnecessarily. Theres a big difference between giving them free reign of how to use their existing power and giving them more power. Zevox
Zevox 04-05-07, 01:43 AM	I'm looking at the WarMind class... and dang it seriously rocks. Yup. Which is why I replaced Indrithia with Arden - going from a psionic fist with way more Monk levels than is healthy in the CoCo to a wilder/warmind is a nice, big boost for the EHTC :) . Zevox
One_Marine 04-05-07, 01:43 AM	250gp, and back a couple pages ago, so you don't spend xp to craft any more, I buil Malik a year ago remember so do I just add his xp back to him and delete it from the items he used it on? Could you tell me where you found it so I know where to look for future reference?
Zevox 04-05-07, 01:46 AM	Could you tell me where you found it so I know where to look for future reference? Its in the Wondrous Items lists. Zevox
MindWandererB 04-05-07, 03:12 AM	Here's a relatively elegant solution (I think.) For psionic characters in 3-man fights, they get a bonus to their normally utilizable power points equal to half the number they received for their last level, rounded up. Casters get back either one spell (in the case of wizard/cleric) or one slot (in the case of sorceror) of their highest level spell level they're able to cast. Neither of these count against their normal limit, it's simply a one-time bonus for that fight. In 4-man, it's even simpler. It counts as two fights in the 3FC for all characters involved, with PP/casting spend accordingly. Thoughts? -Sutro I agree with Zevox--loosening the restrictions only gives casters a greater advantage over noncasters. This solution doesn't help noncasters in the slightest, and puts them at a substantial disadvantage.
One_Marine 04-05-07, 03:45 AM	How much do tattoos with a range of personal cost?
hogarth 04-05-07, 06:48 AM	Ok, one question about pp; if I have 7 total pp, when I divide by three and round up, would that allow me 3 pp per fight or would it be 3, 2 and 2? Here's how it works: Fight 1: 3 pp maximum Fight 2: 3 pp + any of your limit from Fight 1 you didn't use Fight 3: any pp you have left from Fight 1 and Fight 2 So if you don't use any pp in Fight 1, you can use (3+3=6) pp in Fight 2.
templer10 04-05-07, 07:10 AM	question - if you are flying on a mount and someone is attacking you from Directly or close to directly below you do you have soft cover? full soft cover? nothing?
Abyssal Stalker 04-05-07, 07:15 AM	question - if you are flying on a mount and someone is attacking you from Directly or close to directly below you do you have soft cover? full soft cover? nothing? You have nothing. You and the mount share the same space. But, you can perform a ride check to ride for cover to get +4 to AC against that attack.
templer10 04-05-07, 07:47 AM	a question about mirror image - does the images created are in the smae square as the caster - can you Hit the caster with an AOE that hit just that 5 feet squere. also- does Blindsense (not blindsight) negate mirror image or at least count as attacking with eyes closed? (50% hit chance is usually better then 1 in 4-5).
Abyssal Stalker 04-05-07, 07:55 AM	a question about mirror image - does the images created are in the smae square as the caster - can you Hit the caster with an AOE that hit just that 5 feet squere. also- does Blindsense (not blindsight) negate mirror image or at least count as attacking with eyes closed? (50% hit chance is usually better then 1 in 4-5). 1. Yes. I think that an Area spell automatically destroys all the images if it deals damage. 2. I don't know.
McJarvis 04-05-07, 07:58 AM	1. Yes. I think that an Area spell automatically destroys all the images if it deals damage. This is incorrect. Area spells don't destroy the images: but they do affect the caster without fail.(or rather, they don't have a % chance to affect an image instead)
templer10 04-05-07, 08:11 AM	This is incorrect. Area spells don't destroy the images: but they do affect the caster without fail.(or rather, they don't have a % chance to affect an image instead) does they work if the AOE is only 5 feet in size since the mirror image spell has a description i dont fully understand - "hese figments separate from you and remain in a cluster, each within 5 feet of at least one other figment or you" so- do the images all share your space or what? as i seen it play in battles here - images arent assigned additional squares on the battle grinds they are just assumed to be in the same space. btw this part of the mirror image space conflicts with the end part of the spell which mention that if you try to hit blind you only have 50% miss chance (since if the images can move from outside caster's space you could close eyes and still aim at the wrong squere).
hogarth 04-05-07, 08:27 AM	All mirror images share the same square. If you have blindsense, you can pinpoint the target's square, but that doesn't really help you any (since you already know what square the target is in). does they work if the AOE is only 5 feet in size since the mirror image spell has a description i dont fully understand - "hese figments separate from you and remain in a cluster, each within 5 feet of at least one other figment or you" so- do the images all share your space or what? as i seen it play in battles here - images arent assigned additional squares on the battle grinds they are just assumed to be in the same space. btw this part of the mirror image space conflicts with the end part of the spell which mention that if you try to hit blind you only have 50% miss chance (since if the images can move from outside caster's space you could close eyes and still aim at the wrong squere).
McJarvis 04-05-07, 09:19 AM	@ Hogarth: Is there a FAQ ruling on that? In my home games I always allowed the images to be "in a cluster" with each individual image being no farther than 5 ft from any other. (as the spell states) This meant you could have the images & yourself be spread out over a 3x3 "square" of 5ft squares. It also removes stupid things like closing your eyes to negate the effect of the spell entirely-> even with your eyes closed, you still need to figure out which square your target is in before you attack.
hogarth 04-05-07, 09:24 AM	@ Hogarth: Is there a FAQ ruling on that? In my home games I always allowed the images to be "in a cluster" with each individual image being no farther than 5 ft from any other. (as the spell states) This meant you could have the images & yourself be spread out over a 3x3 "square" of 5ft squares. If the images were in a 3x3 square, that means that two images could be up to 15' from each other. As stated, the images have to fit within a 2.5' radius circle (which fits neatly within a 5'x5' square). And you claim to be a mathematician... :P And yes, you can close your eyes and take a 50% miss chance. Gladiators do this all the time.
SauroGrenom 04-05-07, 09:30 AM	Pretty much ... Insight bonuses to Str and Con DR Free Cleave (without the restriction of dropping someone) Full BAB d10 HD Only downside is the limited number of powers known ... but then again your a fighter anyways. To be honest Im not quite sure why you haven't looked at it before with Kracknol, Raskos, (and to a lesser extent) Retikos are all characters w/ psionics. Not to mention the whole ... PSI Guildmaster thing. Yea, yea. I've looked at the class before, but not really compared it closely to some others. The whole independent manifesting thing with it's own ML that doesn't stack with others, that always turned me off. Slayer looks better at first glance. I always thought, 10th level and only 5 powers and only 70pp. Meh. But if you compare that to 10 levels of psiwarrior, you get full BAB, more pp, two good saves, and the important Psicraft skill. You loose out on 3 or 4 bonus feets, but get DR and Insight bonuses and a few other abilities. The low # of powers known doesn't hurt much, because most good psiwarrior powers are effective as powerstone buffs anyway. I just hadn't noticed that you actually get more pp as a warmind than as a psiwarrior (unless you sacrifice psiwarrior levels above 7th). Also there's the fact that you don't have to take a manifesting class to qualify. That realization makes the class far more attractive.
templer10 04-05-07, 09:32 AM	If the images were in a 3x3 square, that means that two images could be up to 15' from each other. As stated, the images have to fit within a 2.5' radius circle (which fits neatly within a 5'x5' square). And you claim to be a mathematician... :P And yes, you can close your eyes and take a 50% miss chance. Gladiators do this all the time. if we didnt have that - melee peeps would have even less of a chance they do against any decent level 3 wizard.
hogarth 04-05-07, 09:34 AM	Also there's the fact that you don't have to take a manifesting class to qualify. That realization makes the class far more attractive. While this is true, you need a class with Knowledge: Psionics in there somewhere if you want to get in before level 13 (e.g. bard, cleric w/ Knowledge domain, dragon disciple).
McJarvis 04-05-07, 09:35 AM	Erm..I think you're reading the spell wrong. These figments separate from you and remain in a cluster, each within 5 feet of at least one other figment or you. You don't need each image to be within 5 ft of all other images/you, you just need each one to be within at least 5 ft of at least one...so if you had yourself and 8 images, each could occupy a space in a 3x3 square & every one would be within 5 ft of at least one other figment, or you. Which is why I asked if there was a FAQ ruling or errata on the spell.
templer10 04-05-07, 09:43 AM	While this is true, you need a class with Knowledge: Psionics in there somewhere if you want to get in before level 13 (e.g. bard, cleric w/ Knowledge domain, dragon disciple). or be human spend 10 credits and get human paragon - something 4/human paragon 1 or a better option IMO cleric (with magic/war domain) 2/human paragon 3/warmind 5 at ECL 10 - give you level 4 cleric casting BaB +8, 2 bonus feats (from cleric and human paragon) and acces to nearly every spell and all psiwarr powers as expendables.
Erithmu 04-05-07, 09:49 AM	As long as he also mass-trips and mass-power attacks and mass-deep impacts, they yeah, he's cool. :DLets see ... trips yes, Power attack yes, 'mass-' in 4 levels (ECL14), DI in 6 (ECL16) ... Linky Not too shabby in the grapple department either.
hogarth 04-05-07, 09:57 AM	You don't need each image to be within 5 ft of all other images/you, you just need each one to be within at least 5 ft of at least one... Oops...I shouldn't have shot my mouth off, then. This is one of those annoying cases with a spell that's centred on a creature (not a grid intersection) so it's not clear whether it's supposed to overlap into other squares or not. They also use the undefined term "remain in a cluster" -- how big is a cluster supposed to be?
SauroGrenom 04-05-07, 10:15 AM	While this is true, you need a class with Knowledge: Psionics in there somewhere if you want to get in before level 13 (e.g. bard, cleric w/ Knowledge domain, dragon disciple). Also wizard or a couple of the racial paragon classes will give the needed class skills.
McJarvis 04-05-07, 10:19 AM	Oops...I shouldn't have shot my mouth off, then. This is one of those annoying cases with a spell that's centred on a creature (not a grid intersection) so it's not clear whether it's supposed to overlap into other squares or not. They also use the undefined term "remain in a cluster" -- how big is a cluster supposed to be? I would imagine "in a cluster" is just stating that all their bases have to be touching. (ie-> no playing games of saying "there is 5ft of space" between two images & placing them every other square)
templer10 04-05-07, 11:45 AM	can i ready action to cast a spesific spell on 2 out of 3 possible targets when in sight? - cast on person A or B but not C?
Zevox 04-05-07, 11:46 AM	can i ready action to cast a spesific spell on 2 out of 3 possible targets when in sight? - cast on person A or B but not C? If you have some way of differentiating them (which you do unless they look uncannily similar), I don't see why not. Zevox
TelinArtho 04-05-07, 11:54 AM	You can elect to ready to cast Scorching Ray on Person A or B but not C. That's fine. What you can't do is ready to cast Scorching Ray on Person A or B but cast Magic Missile at person C.
MindWandererB 04-05-07, 02:54 PM	How much do tattoos with a range of personal cost?100 gp x power level x manifester level.
Horatius 04-05-07, 03:12 PM	100 gp x power level x manifester level. Is that a houserule? The SRD suggests 50 x PL x ML, no?
McJarvis 04-05-07, 03:15 PM	Is that a houserule? The SRD suggests 50 x PL x ML, no? I forget where it is, but very few people can seem to find the reference that personal-range tatoos cost double. It's just one sentance amidst all the psionic stuff.... But I know it's there. (not a houserule)
TelinArtho 04-05-07, 03:15 PM	This comes up so often it is scary. In any case, the rule is in the SRD, just well hidden: Powers with a range of personal can be made into psionic tattoos, but they cost double the price of standard psionic tattoos.
TelinArtho 04-05-07, 03:29 PM	Tessero Valis would like to get a price on some Steadfast Boots. Steadfast Boots These boar-skin boots are stitched with adamantine plates, and engraved with Dwarven runes for stability and tenacity. They impart a measure of dwarven solidness to the wearer, granting him a +4 enhancement bonus to resist Trip, Bull Rush, and Overrun attempts. Moderate Transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be a dwarf or have a dwarven cleric's blessing; bull's strength, alter self; Price: ????; Weight: 3 lbs. Being completely custom, I know they'll cost me 15º. I just don't know how to price them. Please keep in mind: they're only defensive in nature they provide a named bonus they closely compare to Gloves of Titan's grip (XPH, pg. 174), but aren't nearly comparable in power Thanks! TM I've been tossing this one back and forth in my mind and I just can't seem to do much with it. The fact that it provides a named bonus doesn't mean much - unless it was a named bonus that wouldn't stack with existing bonuses you can get (ie dwarven stability, size, etc). Gloves of Titan's grip provide a +8 bonus to all grapple checks. This provides a +4 bonus to resist trip, overrun and bullrush. I don't see how you see the two items as similar at all to be honest. There's only one item in the SRD (that I know of) that emulates a race feature - the Belt of Dwarvenkind. Unfortunately - that item doesn't give the dwarven stability bonus... The item doesn't mimic any specific spell - though Alter Self would be a decent starting point. If you priced it as an Alter Self - you'd be looking at 2000 x 3 (CL) x 2 (SL) x 2 (10mins/level duration) = 24k. Since your not really using the full power of the spell though and it is only one "form" (dwarf), I'd say 12k might be a reasonable price. Are there any items remotely similar to this in other sources? I'm sure I haven't seen one. If there isn't - its probably just better to say a no-go on this one.
hogarth 04-05-07, 03:31 PM	Are there any items remotely similar to this in other sources? I'm sure I haven't seen one. If there isn't - its probably just better to say a no-go on this one. I spent some time looking and I didn't find anything.
Sutro 04-05-07, 03:35 PM	I know there's an item in the newly released Magic Item Compendium that gives those bonuses but I was only borrowing a copy. Anyone have it?
McJarvis 04-05-07, 05:38 PM	I can't seem to load any of Hood or Auburn's old fights. Anyone know why?
Vathelokai 04-05-07, 05:44 PM	I can't seem to load any of Hood or Auburn's old fights. Anyone know why? They may be in the process of moving them to the archives. Which fights thread are you looking for?
McJarvis 04-05-07, 05:49 PM	They may be in the process of moving them to the archives. Which fights thread are you looking for? I'm interested in seeing the ECL3->4 fights for Auburn, specifically.
TelinArtho 04-05-07, 06:20 PM	I think I might be breaking a rule, but I wasn't aware of it. Allies. You've had access to class allies and purchased allies up until now. At ECL 5, you gain access to whole new categories: allies obtained with Diplomacy, with Handle Animal, and with the Leadership feat. You don't have to have them (and in fact many characters won't be eligible for them), but they can be a tremendous advantage. Read up on them here and here. You can also hire mercenaries from the mercenaries' guild using the same rules. Is this intended? No mercenaries before ECL5? If so - Berri's going to be scrapped...
MindWandererB 04-05-07, 06:22 PM	I think I might be breaking a rule, but I wasn't aware of it. Is this intended? No mercenaries before ECL5? If so - Berri's going to be scrapped... Huh. I really wish the beginner's guide stuff was incorporated into the main rules. It looks like that is indeed the case--no mercs before ECL 5.
Eluria 04-05-07, 07:44 PM	You know, and I pm'd this to Telin, in the rules on calculating CR / ally penalties, it lists an example of an ECL3 gladiator hiring a level 1 merc... is it definately true that merc's can't be hired until ECL5?
Vathelokai 04-05-07, 07:51 PM	I'm interested in seeing the ECL3->4 fights for Auburn, specifically. They are over here (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/f-483-p-2.html) in battles of gladius 1 and 2. However, the threads won't load for some reason. The table of contents is fine, but the threads themselves get time out errors. Anyone more computer savvy than I know what's going on?
TheMagister 04-05-07, 07:57 PM	Gloves of Titan's grip provide a +8 bonus to all grapple checks. This provides a +4 bonus to resist trip, overrun and bullrush. I don't see how you see the two items as similar at all to be honest. The only similarity that I found was that both items give boni to "checks", and not ability/skill/attack/AC modifiers. A +8 is a pretty hefty bonus. Following DnD's "rule of exponential increase", a +8 is about two2 as useful as a +4. (I'm referring to the "+2 costs 4K, +4 costs 16K, +6 costs 32K" progression.) So somebody thought that a +8 to a check was worth 14K. I was thinking that a +4 to three checks would cost about 75% of that, and then divide by another 2 because they're only defensive in nature. 14K*.75*.5=5250. Of course, I'd be perfectly happy to have them only apply to checks to resist being tripped, or to provide a +8 to resist being tripped. Then again, that's an optimizer's standpoint, and I'd like to keep some semblance of flavor. :) Edit: Friend of mine has the Magic Item Compendium and the Boots there are priced at 1,400gp. AND they allow a free auto-ready against a charge if you're holding a 2-handed weapon. I didn't even know they were in there. I'm a genius! Can I have a job, Hasbro? TM
hogarth 04-05-07, 08:43 PM	Huh. I really wish the beginner's guide stuff was incorporated into the main rules. It looks like that is indeed the case--no mercs before ECL 5. Well Mr. GM-pro-tem, your wishes can now be reality! Reorganize to your heart's content. :D
hogarth 04-05-07, 08:44 PM	They are over here (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/f-483-p-2.html) in battles of gladius 1 and 2. However, the threads won't load for some reason. The table of contents is fine, but the threads themselves get time out errors. Anyone more computer savvy than I know what's going on? I complained about this earlier this week. I didn't figure out how to fix it.
NiQil 04-05-07, 10:47 PM	A question.... Arrows can be made out of adamantine, cold iron and alchemical silver. What other wooden items can be made out of one or more of these materials? Javelins? All three materials Clubs and Greatclubs? None Quarterstaves? None Shortspears, Spears and Longspears? All three materials Edit: If I am reading the special materials rules correctly, the blue additions above may be accurate. Opinions?
SauroGrenom 04-05-07, 11:00 PM	The idea that a club cannot be made of anything but wood strikes me as silly. Although I suppose a metal club is the very definition of a mace. Staffs though, clearly you can make a stave out of a metal. No? It wouldn't be free like quarter staffs are free, but it wouldn't be impossible or unreasonable. Atleast you can make them out of deep crystal. That much is core.
TheMagister 04-05-07, 11:04 PM	I like the idea of "capped" or "studded" wooden weapons. If you can "stud" leather armor, why not clubs and quarterstaves? TM
MindWandererB 04-05-07, 11:17 PM	@All: I'm noticing a trend to deviate from the standard format for the miniquest threads. Just because Cat is gone doesn't mean there's any reason to slack. Maintaining the format both makes miniquests easier to find, and discourages folks who find this forum from creating their own threads by accident. Thanks! @hogarth: It's a Herculean task. When and if I'm confident that Cat won't be coming back, I'll start on it.
SauroGrenom 04-05-07, 11:20 PM	Fixed.
NiQil 04-05-07, 11:24 PM	The edited in blue opinions in my original post are what the rules for the various special materials state with regard to the weapons in questions. The general theme is that in order to be made out of one of those special metals, there has to be at least some metal to it, such as the tip of an arrow, javelin or spear. Quarterstaves and clubs, which are defined as not having any metal, are not eligible for those materials. I personally agree that it is kinda silly to require all quarterstaves to be wooden (what about bone?), but that appears to be what the RAW says. I was hoping someone would find something I missed that would contradict me. I'm working on a ranger quarterstaff build, and having to come up with a way to have cold iron and silver weapons (aside from silversheen) is kind of a detriment to the theme.
MindWandererB 04-05-07, 11:33 PM	I agree with NiQil: although it makes sense to allow metal quarterstaffs, it doesn't seem to be supported by RAW.
Rauul 04-05-07, 11:46 PM	I agree with NiQil: although it makes sense to allow metal quarterstaffs, it doesn't seem to be supported by RAW. What would you charge for a metal Quarterstaff... the reason they are free is because they are a tree limb... maybe masterworked.. don't know..
TheMagister 04-05-07, 11:57 PM	If I was ball-parkin' it, I'd go with the cost of a crowbar x 3. TM
Abyssal Stalker 04-06-07, 06:49 AM	I agree with NiQil: although it makes sense to allow metal quarterstaffs, it doesn't seem to be supported by RAW. On the other hand, I have hard times finding a metal quarterstaff usable. Just think about the weight of an iron bar, and then imagine a monk flurrying with it. Iron weighs about 15 times more than wood. Think about that. (I realize that it could of course be effectively an iron tube, but still...)
UserNamer 04-06-07, 07:59 AM	When creating something with Craft Wondrous Items, can one use a scroll or spellcasting service to cast the spell(s)?
UserNamer 04-06-07, 08:12 AM	And another question: a part with 2x ecl 3, is ecl5 together, does this mean you can have allies through handle animal or not?
hogarth 04-06-07, 08:19 AM	When creating something with Craft Wondrous Items, can one use a scroll or spellcasting service to cast the spell(s)? In real-life D&D -- yes. In the Coco -- no. "Special Note: You may not use the Spellcasting Service to aid you in crafting magic or psionic items." Hmmm...I can't find anything about scrolls .
UserNamer 04-06-07, 08:26 AM	Can a druid select a crocodile as his animal companion in CoCo? If the campaign takes place wholly or partly in an aquatic environment, the following creatures are also available: crocodile, porpoise, Medium shark, and squid.
McJarvis 04-06-07, 09:08 AM	Can a druid select a crocodile as his animal companion in CoCo? yes
Horatius 04-06-07, 09:35 AM	On the other hand, I have hard times finding a metal quarterstaff usable. Just think about the weight of an iron bar, and then imagine a monk flurrying with it. Iron weighs about 15 times more than wood. Think about that. (I realize that it could of course be effectively an iron tube, but still...) The whole thing doesn't have to be metal. There are two ways metal was added to staffs. In Europe, they were typically capped, meaning an iron cap was added to each end. In Asia, though I assume they were capped as well, they were often strengthened with strips of metal along the length. The purpose of this was actually to prevent a swordsman from cutting down the length of the staff (a common tactic) rather than to improve the offensive qualities, but in the game term of adding special materials it would qualify, I think.
SauroGrenom 04-06-07, 10:12 AM	I agree with NiQil: although it makes sense to allow metal quarterstaffs, it doesn't seem to be supported by RAW. The only thing I know of in the RAW is that you can make quarterstaffs out of crystal or deep crystal. The process is described as similar to forging something from metal. Aside from that, there's nothing in RAW that allows "metal" types of exotic materials.
Abyssal Stalker 04-06-07, 10:28 AM	The whole thing doesn't have to be metal. There are two ways metal was added to staffs. In Europe, they were typically capped, meaning an iron cap was added to each end. In Asia, though I assume they were capped as well, they were often strengthened with strips of metal along the length. The purpose of this was actually to prevent a swordsman from cutting down the length of the staff (a common tactic) rather than to improve the offensive qualities, but in the game term of adding special materials it would qualify, I think. Yes, I am aware of this method, but I wanted to point out that there might be a reason why RAW doesn't support quarterstaves made of metal. A whole different topic is how much metal a weapon needs to benefit from the special qualities. I guess it seems reasonable that a small piece is enough for example bypassing DR. But on the other hand, a small piece of adamantine doesn't necessary make a weapon more potent in sudering. I mean, weapons basically should follow the principle of the weakest link. But once again, the rules support wooden-hafted adamantine weapons... This is once again something that I would allow in a TT game, but in CoCo rules are followed by the letter, usually in the strictest possible way and it seems to be at the moment that a quarterstaff can't be made of metal. Edit: A thought that followed the latter: Items without metal parts cannot be made from adamantine. An arrow could be made of adamantine, but a quarterstaff could not. Only weapons, armor, and shields normally made of metal can be fashioned from adamantine. Weapons, armor and shields normally made of steel that are made of adamantine have one-third more hit points than normal. Adamantine has 40 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 20. Is it actually legal to make a wooden-hafted weapon out of adamantine? I know I've done it, and there are probably several adamantine reach weapons, but are they legal? In the quote above it says that an arrow can be made of adamantine, but is an arrow normally made of metal? I've always figured that an arrow is mainly wooden. And what if only the metal parts are made of adamantine and the rest is of wood, does the whole weapon have the hardness of an adamantine weapon? (And there's also the answer to the question if a quarterstaff can be made of adamantine.)
Macbrea 04-06-07, 10:39 AM	It should be noted that RAW never state what material a quarterstaff is made out of in dungeons and dragons. We are guessing that they meant it to be made out of wood.
Vathelokai 04-06-07, 11:00 AM	Edit: A thought that followed the latter: Is it actually legal to make a wooden-hafted weapon out of adamantine? I know I've done it, and there are probably several adamantine reach weapons, but are they legal? In the quote above it says that an arrow can be made of adamantine, but is an arrow normally made of metal? I've always figured that an arrow is mainly wooden. And what if only the metal parts are made of adamantine and the rest is of wood, does the whole weapon have the hardness of an adamantine weapon? (And there's also the answer to the question if a quarterstaff can be made of adamantine.) My understanding was that the blade had to be made from metal. So arrow-heads are metal, and can be made from a special material. A glaive has a metal blade, etc. Dosn't add much to the arguement, but then this arguement has no real RAW backup...
Zevox 04-06-07, 11:29 AM	When creating something with Craft Wondrous Items, can one use a scroll or spellcasting service to cast the spell(s)? No, you cannot. In addition to what hogarth posted, I recall at least one character, Sunwolf's Sorcerer Leif, being disallowed from using either, and thus deciding to switch out his Craft Wondrous Item feat. And another question: a part with 2x ecl 3, is ecl5 together, does this mean you can have allies through handle animal or not? Yes, you could have handle animal allies as a team of EL 5. However, note that forming a team costs credits, and the team members have to be from two different players. Can a druid select a crocodile as his animal companion in CoCo? Yes, but not at level 3. Note that is is listed among the level 4 minimum animal companions - the last time the question of what level it was allowed at came up, it was ruled that the mention of it as a base ally was a mistake. This resulted in my brother's Ranger, Ihdald, having to switch his croc companion for a snake. Zevox
Horatius 04-06-07, 11:58 AM	A whole different topic is how much metal a weapon needs to benefit from the special qualities. I guess it seems reasonable that a small piece is enough for example bypassing DR. But on the other hand, a small piece of adamantine doesn't necessary make a weapon more potent in sudering. I mean, weapons basically should follow the principle of the weakest link. But once again, the rules support wooden-hafted adamantine weapons... You raise an interesting point here: according to the RAW an 'adamantine' battleaxe is much harder to sunder than a normal one. In reality, however, the haft would still be wood, and that's what you'd sunder...
Abyssal Stalker 04-06-07, 12:42 PM	Yes, that is something that I also have been thinking about many times. The most reasonable way to rule this would probably be so that the weapon works like an adamantine weapon when used to attack something, but is considered a hafted weapon for purposes of being sundered. But once again, that's not supproted by RAW and would be a house rule, I think.
MindWandererB 04-06-07, 01:59 PM	Yes, but not at level 3. Note that is is listed among the level 4 minimum animal companions - the last time the question of what level it was allowed at came up, it was ruled that the mention of it as a base ally was a mistake. This resulted in my brother's Ranger, Ihdald, having to switch his croc companion for a snake.Actually... the corc is listed in both places. Apparently in the Special Edition PHB, it was removed from the level 4 list. :rant: The only thing I know of in the RAW is that you can make quarterstaffs out of crystal or deep crystal. The process is described as similar to forging something from metal. Aside from that, there's nothing in RAW that allows "metal" types of exotic materials.Not quite: you can make quarterstaffs out of deepcrystal, but not mundane crystal. Mundane crystal replaces metal only.
McJarvis 04-06-07, 02:02 PM	Yes, that is something that I also have been thinking about many times. The most reasonable way to rule this would probably be so that the weapon works like an adamantine weapon when used to attack something, but is considered a hafted weapon for purposes of being sundered. But once again, that's not supproted by RAW and would be a house rule, I think. Many rules in D&D are made simple in leau of making sense. Example: When you get a cover bonus from your horse, there is no chance of the attack hitting the horse.
Horatius 04-06-07, 02:31 PM	Many rules in D&D are made simple in leau of making sense. Example: When you get a cover bonus from your horse, there is no chance of the attack hitting the horse. Yeah. I checked that in detail for one of the fights I ran - silly.
Macbrea 04-06-07, 02:42 PM	You know.. you have to hate when you forgot what path you were taking one of your characters.... I am not sure what Izumi should be heading toward anymore!
Erithmu 04-06-07, 02:48 PM	You know.. you have to hate when you forgot what path you were taking one of your characters.... I am not sure what Izumi should be heading toward anymore! Hood except melee oriented?
Macbrea 04-06-07, 02:49 PM	Could be.. maybe I was going toward touch attacks. Hmmm.
Erithmu 04-06-07, 02:50 PM	Could be.. maybe I was going toward touch attacks. Hmmm. Psi War 5: Feat - Deep Impact? or Psi Meditation
Macbrea 04-06-07, 02:52 PM	Psi Meditation makes sense, If she takes psi warrior 5 she still won't have a +6 bab. So, meditating between each swings is perfectly fine.
Zevox 04-06-07, 04:33 PM	Warmind PrC would be good for her too. The chains to boost her str/con/ac for 10 rounds in every fight, the DR (which works nicely since shes wearing Mithril armor instead of Adamantine), sweeping strike to hit multiple foes with attacks, and of course the fact that it gives d10 HD and full bab plus more pp than a psychic warrior. Plus that final ability enhances her alpha strike insanely in one fight. Zevox
Macbrea 04-06-07, 04:35 PM	Don't have any of the required skills. Hmm. not sure best way to get there from here. That might be out.
Zevox 04-06-07, 04:43 PM	Well, Know (Psionics) is a Psychic Warrior skill, and Know (History) only requires 2 ranks. With 4 skill points per level, you could qualify in 3 levels, which leaves you just enough levels to have the full PrC by level 20. Of course, you could also get there faster by swapping some of your current skill points to the requisite skills. *shrugs* If you don't go for that PrC, I'd say your best bet is either to nab a Ranger level and go Slayer (similar to Warmind, but with d8 HD, the special abilities being less useful to you, and probably fewer total power points ultimately), or just continue as a straight Psychic Warrior for the bonus feats and uninterrupted pp/power acquisition. Zevox
Macbrea 04-06-07, 05:02 PM	Warmind seems a good choice. I will have to stare at it. I was thinking Psychic warrior 9 for 2x expansion and dual wield colossal kusari-gamas.
Zevox 04-06-07, 05:21 PM	I was thinking Psychic warrior 9 for 2x expansion and dual wield colossal kusari-gamas. Eh, while that would do considerable damage, don't you think you're taking enough penalties on attacks already? Another -2 for double wielding would hurt a lot. And unless you take Psicrystal Affinity and Psicrystal Containment, you could never use Deep Impact on both to help with that. Might not be the best choice IMHO. Psychic Warrior 9 for the extra expansion size is a pretty good idea though. Its certainly one endorsement for the straight Psychic Warrior or Slayer routes. Zevox
SauroGrenom 04-06-07, 06:34 PM	If you already have 7 levels of psiwarrior or more, then you get more pp from continuing in psiwarrior than switching to warmind. So if you are going to be in that situation before you take levels in the prestige class, it may be better to switch to slayer instead. A 1 level dip into ranger is the best way to qualify for slayer, and then you can continue your advancement as a psiwarrior with full BAB and 9/10 ML increase. That route has benefits that just keep coming. One ranger level grants the ability to use wands for useful spells, and some of those slayer abilities can be very effective. Pluss your ML continues to stack, instead of being two separate ML's each at a lower level as you get with the warmind.
Rauul 04-06-07, 10:49 PM	As the corrupter can have 28HD of undead under his control..am i allowed to make a charater page just for them and link the to the Charater page.. Honestly with just 4 undead on the page now.. it's almost at the charater limit...
MindWandererB 04-07-07, 12:39 AM	As the corrupter can have 28HD of undead under his control..am i allowed to make a charater page just for them and link the to the Charater page.. Honestly with just 4 undead on the page now.. it's almost at the charater limit... You can start by removing any duplicates... both dogs seem to be identical. You can also use a more abbreviated stat block for them--they don't really need the full treatment. If there's absolutely no help for it, you can make a second page.
Erithmu 04-07-07, 12:44 AM	As the corrupter can have 28HD of undead under his control..am i allowed to make a charater page just for them and link the to the Charater page.. Honestly with just 4 undead on the page now.. it's almost at the charater limit... Try removing unneeded color and bolding tags Mostly in the ally section.
Rauul 04-07-07, 02:20 AM	Question for you rules buffs... can a psi warrior put Dissolving Weapon on both ends of a double weapon.. (i am asking cause at looking at cold iron weapon construction... it specifies that each head can be different..)
Zevox 04-07-07, 08:34 AM	Question for you rules buffs... can a psi warrior put Dissolving Weapon on both ends of a double weapon.. (i am asking cause at looking at cold iron weapon construction... it specifies that each head can be different..) Of course - the rules make it clear in a number of places that the heads of a double weapon are essentially separate weapons. Though that'd be little different from putting it on two different weapons - if you're not using it for two-weapon fighting, its nigh useless (just saves you the time of re-manifesting it after the first strike hits). Zevox
templer10 04-07-07, 09:49 AM	question- when you pay credits to start at a higher ECL - can you also start with a PRC like warmind that normally takes a miniquest to qualify for? also - about nets - the SRD say it's maximum range is 10 feet - does it means you cant throw it for more range with range penalties? also- if a flyer (with wings) is entangled using a net - does he crash?
Maraxus 04-07-07, 11:43 AM	PrC: Yes (afaIk) Net: Yes. Flying: Somewhere there was wrote that a flying (or swimming) will crash (or sink) when entangled. However, I don't know where (and therefor if it was a general statement).
Vathelokai 04-07-07, 12:33 PM	Prestige class: sure you can. before a character is activated for the first time, they can be considered to have done anything you want; change aligment, qualify for Pr class, whatever; just no crafting or custom items and such. Go ahead and make a monk/ranger/barbarian/bard/warmind/assassin if you want. Net: As far as I know, creatures can sort of fly in a net. Entangled creatures can only move at half speed, and within the lengh of the rope on the net; so, if they do not have a minimum forward speed (perfect flight), then they can't move enough to stay airborn. So if you catch a dragon in a net, it will come down, but if you catch a flying wizard in a net, they will keep hovering. Tanglefoot bags have a specail clause that says they knock things out of the sky and keep them from flying, but that is a function of tangle bags, and not nessicarily entanglement itself. Also, yes on the range; it says in the net description that it has a max range.... but I suppose you could buy a magic net with better range...
Zevox 04-07-07, 02:23 PM	question- when you pay credits to start at a higher ECL - can you also start with a PRC like warmind that normally takes a miniquest to qualify for? also - about nets - the SRD say it's maximum range is 10 feet - does it means you cant throw it for more range with range penalties? also- if a flyer (with wings) is entangled using a net - does he crash? PrC: As others said, yes, you can start with such a PrC if you meet its other prerequisites. You're presumed to have completed the qualification before arriving in Gladius if you do (so you met with an evil outsider if you're a Blackguard, you recieved training if you're a Warmind, etc). Net range: Yes, you can throw thrown weapons up to 5 range increments with a -2 penalty for every extra range increment it goes. Flying Entangled: To my knowledge, in general, entanglement does not prevent flight unless it prevents movement (as in the Entangle spell) or prevents the flyer from maintaining a minimum forward speed (1/2 their speed for a flyer with average or worse maneuverability, those with the hover feat or good or perfect maneuverability can ignore this). The exception is the Tanglefoot bag, which specifically says winged flyers that fail their save crash. Zevox
Vathelokai 04-07-07, 03:12 PM	Net range: Yes, you can throw thrown weapons up to 5 range increments with a -2 penalty for every extra range increment it goes. Zevox Normally yes, but the description of the net counters the normal range rules.
Zevox 04-07-07, 03:39 PM	Normally yes, but the description of the net counters the normal range rules. *raised eyebrow* Huh - didn't notice that. So, its maximum range is indeed a pitiful 10 feet. Zevox
templer10 04-07-07, 05:03 PM	When a wilder is ennervated by casting a wild surge- the enervation happen after the power is manifested - correct?
Erithmu 04-07-07, 05:44 PM	When a wilder is ennervated by casting a wild surge- the enervation happen after the power is manifested - correct?Correct the effect of the power (in all of it's surge) happens before enervation kicks in.
SauroGrenom 04-07-07, 05:45 PM	Yes. The power still goes off. Then enervation sets in.
templer10 04-07-07, 06:21 PM	i need to be sure on a rule- normally You cant do a 5 foot move to avoid an AoA and then a move action- but can you do a 5 foot move and a move action that isnt a move as attempting to gain psionic focus when you have the psionic meditation feat. as i understand it you can since the SRD only mention you cant use the move action for movement but as i understand it you can use it for something else. "You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round when you move any distance." - it doesnt say anything about not being able to do move equivelent actions taht arent an actual move so i assume you can.
SauroGrenom 04-07-07, 06:29 PM	That is correct. If you are drawing a weapon (move action) and attacking (standard action), you can take a 5' step.
Horatius 04-07-07, 06:39 PM	Does a half-dragon's immunity to paralysis effects protect him/her from hold monster?
Vathelokai 04-07-07, 06:48 PM	Does a half-dragon's immunity to paralysis effects protect him/her from hold monster? Yes, dragons are immune to paralysis from any source; not that there are other ways to hold them still, which are not techniclly paralysis.
NiQil 04-07-07, 07:17 PM	Yes, dragons are immune to paralysis from any source; not that there are other ways to hold them still, which are not techniclly paralysis. I've always found Forcecage to be good at this....often preceded by several Reduce Person/Compressions being issued (depending on the size of the dragon in question)
Horatius 04-07-07, 07:44 PM	Do I have to pay for UA stuff at character creation if I don't intend to use it until later? Example: If I plan to take the variant druid class at ECL 6, but I'm starting at ECL 3, as usual, can I hold off paying my 10 credits in case I change my mind, or do I have to buy access to the UA variant druid class a ECL 3?
Zevox 04-07-07, 08:00 PM	Do I have to pay for UA stuff at character creation if I don't intend to use it until later? Example: If I plan to take the variant druid class at ECL 6, but I'm starting at ECL 3, as usual, can I hold off paying my 10 credits in case I change my mind, or do I have to buy access to the UA variant druid class a ECL 3? Presuming you're not taking your first level in the UA class at creation, you can wait until you're ready to take the first level, yes. Zevox
SauroGrenom 04-07-07, 08:44 PM	Do I have to pay for UA stuff at character creation if I don't intend to use it until later? Example: If I plan to take the variant druid class at ECL 6, but I'm starting at ECL 3, as usual, can I hold off paying my 10 credits in case I change my mind, or do I have to buy access to the UA variant druid class a ECL 3? Note that you cannot take 5 levels in a normal druid and then switch to UA variant druid in level 6 w/o paying additional costs in the character changes thread. The variant druid class is the only druid class you can take. It's not possible to multiclass into two different kinds of druid variants, or normal druid and variant druid.
McJarvis 04-07-07, 08:49 PM	Note that you cannot take 5 levels in a normal druid and then switch to UA variant druid in level 6 w/o paying additional costs in the character changes thread. The variant druid class is the only druid class you can take. It's not possible to multiclass into two different kinds of druid variants, or normal druid and variant druid. What other "different kinds of druids" are there? ???:-O
hogarth 04-07-07, 08:50 PM	What other "different kinds of druids" are there? ???:-O There's the "swift hunter" variant and the "avenger" variant. Not to mention the "aspect of nature" variant, but that one is just a different version of Wild Shape so you could probably combine it with the "avenger" version.
McJarvis 04-07-07, 09:01 PM	There's the "swift hunter" variant and the "avenger" variant. Not to mention the "aspect of nature" variant, but that one is just a different version of Wild Shape so you could probably combine it with the "avenger" version. Which are all "variant" druid types...Sauro seemed to be hinting at some non-UA druid type other than the core ;) EDIT-> Or maybe I'm tired and didn't comprehend what he typed. It IS possible I'm in error...
McJarvis 04-07-07, 11:11 PM	If you are not in the area when the spell is cast, does Web(Wiz/Sorc lvl 2) impede movement for you at all? I just noticed that almost the entire spell effect is right after the sentence "If you are in the area when the spell is cast"
SauroGrenom 04-07-07, 11:32 PM	Which are all "variant" druid types...Sauro seemed to be hinting at some non-UA druid type other than the core ;) EDIT-> Or maybe I'm tired and didn't comprehend what he typed. It IS possible I'm in error... All I really meant is that you cannot be a Druid 5/Swift Variant Druid 3/Aspect of Nature Druid 4/Druidic Avenger 1 or any similar combination of various kinds of druid slammed into one character.
One_Marine 04-07-07, 11:41 PM	Would I use Str or Dex for the attack bonus for throwing a dagger? I've always been confused by this and can never seem to remember it.
SauroGrenom 04-07-07, 11:55 PM	Would I use Str or Dex for the attack bonus for throwing a dagger? I've always been confused by this and can never seem to remember it.Use Dex for the attack bonus, and strength for a damage bonus... talk about MAD...
One_Marine 04-08-07, 12:05 AM	Hehe, yea. Oh well...if it gets to the point where I'm actually throwing the daggers then I've either already won or already lost the fight, lol.
MindWandererB 04-08-07, 03:11 AM	Wow... the prison is pretty packed. I remind everyone to take a look at it to make sure you're in the clear... there's at least one Iron Man contender with a red violation and one with a yellow, and those are going to have to be cleared up by Thursday when the next IMT round gets paired.
Abyssal Stalker 04-08-07, 03:38 AM	Surprisingly, I found only 4 violations concerning the prereqs of Improved Grapple or Deflect Arrows. I might have missed some, so remember that the latest FAQ has cleared that having a natural attack doesn't qualify for feats that require Improved Unarmed Strike.
hogarth 04-08-07, 08:05 AM	Just to clarify -- violation reports are worth 1/3 credits each, correct? Of course, the Rules and Prison threads still state that you get 0.1 credits for a violation report, so that doesn't clarify things.
Horatius 04-08-07, 08:41 AM	Whoops! Just noticed a yellow violation - to clarify, when I fix it, I inform the person who reported it, right?
Abyssal Stalker 04-08-07, 08:54 AM	Whoops! Just noticed a yellow violation - to clarify, when I fix it, I inform the person who reported it, right? Yes, so that he can mark the violation fixed.
Vathelokai 04-08-07, 09:48 AM	If you are not in the area when the spell is cast, does Web(Wiz/Sorc lvl 2) impede movement for you at all? I just noticed that almost the entire spell effect is right after the sentence "If you are in the area when the spell is cast" Anyone in the effect’s area when the spell is cast must make a Reflex save. If this save succeeds, the creature is entangled, but not prevented from moving, though moving is more difficult than normal for being entangled (see below). If the save fails, the creature is entangled and can’t move from its space, but can break loose by spending 1 round and making a DC 20 Strength check or a DC 25 Escape Artist check. Once loose (either by making the initial Reflex save or a later Strength check or Escape Artist check), a creature remains entangled, but may move through the web very slowly. Each round devoted to moving allows the creature to make a new Strength check or Escape Artist check. The creature moves 5 feet for each full 5 points by which the check result exceeds 10. Web can be made permanent with a permanency spell. A permanent web that is damaged (but not destroyed) regrows in 10 minutes. Check the green section; it implies that once you are loose in any way, the following rules apply. Also the red section; it wouldn't make much sense if it had to apear on top of someone to slow them down.
McJarvis 04-08-07, 12:38 PM	Check the green section; it implies that once you are loose in any way, the following rules apply. Also the red section; it wouldn't make much sense if it had to apear on top of someone to slow them down. It *says* once loose, and then clarifies that it means either by reflex save or by str check(which someone not in it when it happens wouldn't have to do). Then it goes on to say they are still entangled(does this apply to anyone who walks in?). Then it says how hard it is for the entangled person to move inside it. So my question is, I guess, "What happens when you walk into an existing Web spell?" Do you get auto-entangled? Do you have to make strength checks to move? Do you have to make a reflex save? The entire spell seems poorly worded(especially considering it can be made permanent)
Vathelokai 04-08-07, 12:46 PM	Definitely poorly worded. I'd say that walking into it was the same as auto succeeding the save, ie. entangled but able to move. But you're right; it dosn't say that. I suppose another question is if they stay entangled after leaving the webbed area.
McJarvis 04-08-07, 01:32 PM	Definitely poorly worded. I'd say that walking into it was the same as auto succeeding the save, ie. entangled but able to move. But you're right; it dosn't say that. I suppose another question is if they stay entangled after leaving the webbed area. After reading the bit about the spell requiring to be cast in an area with two permanent structures that are diametrically opposed, I would say that the intended use of this spell was likely that entering the area is equivalent to being in the area when it is cast & passing your reflex save. At the same time, leaving the area should un-entangle you. (once you're out of the webs they don't follow you....) Needing the structures around it really re-enforces that these are like giant spider webs
Vathelokai 04-08-07, 02:21 PM	Question: how encumbered can a dire bat be and still fly? Does the dire bat count as a quadraped for encumberance?
Zevox 04-08-07, 02:53 PM	Question: how encumbered can a dire bat be and still fly? Does the dire bat count as a quadraped for encumberance? Like with any winged flier, it needs to be in light encumbrance. As for if it counts as a quadruped, I'd personally say no, because Bats only have two feet. Theres nothing in the SRD on the matter that I can see, so I'd presume that to be the case. Zevox
Vathelokai 04-08-07, 03:05 PM	Like with any winged flier, it needs to be in light encumbrance. As for if it counts as a quadruped, I'd personally say no, because Bats only have two feet. Theres nothing in the SRD on the matter that I can see, so I'd presume that to be the case. Zevox Thanks. Those were my assumptions, but I couldn't find them anywhere.
hogarth 04-08-07, 03:08 PM	Like with any winged flier, it needs to be in light encumbrance. As for if it counts as a quadruped, I'd personally say no, because Bats only have two feet. Theres nothing in the SRD on the matter that I can see, so I'd presume that to be the case. Note that the SRD calculates the encumbrance for a Giant Owl or Giant Eagle as if it were a quadruped, though.
Eluria 04-08-07, 03:16 PM	Not that I'm going to scan the web for photos like whoever showed that eagle holding a stick and pretending it could weild a wand, but bats do crawl using their wings as somewhat limited fore-feet, I believe.
Abyssal Stalker 04-08-07, 03:50 PM	Just got back from the cinema with my wife. 300 worked for me... :fight!:
NiQil 04-08-07, 04:09 PM	Just to clarify -- violation reports are worth 1/3 credits each, correct? Of course, the Rules and Prison threads still state that you get 0.1 credits for a violation report, so that doesn't clarify things. If you could point me in the direction of where it still says that they are worth 0.1 instead of 0.3, I'll fix them (if I can). In answer to your question, yes, it is now 0.3
Rauul 04-08-07, 04:23 PM	If you could point me in the direction of where it still says that they are worth 0.1 instead of 0.3, I'll fix them (if I can). In answer to your question, yes, it is now 0.3 the credit system (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6467052#post6467052) And the very first page of the Prison (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8262310&postcount=1)
NiQil 04-08-07, 04:26 PM	Yeah....unfortunately that isn't something I can fix...but the Rules thread is in need of major updates from all of the changes that have happened in the past few months....so that will probably not be something that happens until either Cat comes back or we determine that he is not coming back at all.
Rauul 04-08-07, 04:44 PM	Yeah....unfortunately that isn't something I can fix...but the Rules thread is in need of major updates from all of the changes that have happened in the past few months....so that will probably not be something that happens until either Cat comes back or we determine that he is not coming back at all. I Agree.. I Also agree that the Elders need to share the duties that Cat held... to split up some of the duties he did.. and Make them offical Till he returns or don't...
hogarth 04-08-07, 05:43 PM	If you could point me in the direction of where it still says that they are worth 0.1 instead of 0.3, I'll fix them (if I can). In answer to your question, yes, it is now 0.3 Hold on, though. Is it 0.3 or 0.33333...? That's what was kind of confusing me about the totals.
Vathelokai 04-08-07, 05:47 PM	Note that the SRD calculates the encumbrance for a Giant Owl or Giant Eagle as if it were a quadruped, though. This is interesting; this effects the fight I'm running, so if anyone has anything else to add, then it would be helpfull (about dire bat encumberance, that is).
NiQil 04-08-07, 06:00 PM	Hold on, though. Is it 0.3 or 0.33333...? That's what was kind of confusing me about the totals. Technically, it's 0.33333...it's just easier to say 0.3. If you look at the recent roll call, however, you will see that for every 3 violations, people are earning 1 full credit.
hogarth 04-08-07, 06:07 PM	Technically, it's 0.33333...it's just easier to say 0.3. If you look at the recent roll call, however, you will see that for every 3 violations, people are earning 1 full credit. Note that "1/3" and "0.3" take the same number of characters to type. :P (I work for a bank -- if we did all of our mathematics to one decimal place of accuracy, we'd be in big trouble...)
NiQil 04-08-07, 06:09 PM	Note that "1/3" and "0.3" take the same number of characters to type. :P (I work for a bank -- if we did all of our mathematics to one decimal place of accuracy, we'd be in big trouble...) True, but while they may take the same number of characters to type, one is far easier to display in a list format than the other. But if you would like, I can always track yours as 0.3 (which would require me to go back and remove some credits) :P
Horatius 04-08-07, 06:48 PM	This is interesting; this effects the fight I'm running, so if anyone has anything else to add, then it would be helpfull (about dire bat encumberance, that is). I did some checking and Defenders of the Faith (from 3.0) has Dire Bat carry limit at 172 lbs (p13 - under specail mounts). Of course, that's a secondary source. I don't know what's going on in the fight, of course, but Harbinger expanded weighs x8, so he should easily pull it down. LPG on the other hand...
MindWandererB 04-08-07, 06:51 PM	Yeah....unfortunately that isn't something I can fix...but the Rules thread is in need of major updates from all of the changes that have happened in the past few months....so that will probably not be something that happens until either Cat comes back or we determine that he is not coming back at all.I Agree.. I Also agree that the Elders need to share the duties that Cat held... to split up some of the duties he did.. and Make them offical Till he returns or don't...If it is determined that Cat is indeed not coming back, I'm going to start a project for corrections. The Council thread isn't getting much use these days; if you see any overt rules contradictions, rules that don't make any sense, or ones that are confusing, please post them there, at least for the time being. For now, I can only edit posts created by "Pitlords," which is most but not all of the rules posts. As for sharing duties, I'm on it. Everything that I can't handle myself is being delegated.
Horatius 04-08-07, 06:55 PM	1. Can I save my free full activity (that I get because my fight was extended) for later? I don't have anything to do with it now, but I'll be crafting stuff in a couple of levels... 2. If I want to create a 1/2 dragon character with an alignment that's different than the dragon parent (eg LE gold) do I have to pay credits for that? I know I'll have to pay credits to start at ECL 4 and that I would have to pay credits to play a LE gold dragon.
MindWandererB 04-08-07, 06:59 PM	1. Can I save my free full activity (that I get because my fight was extended) for later? I don't have anything to do with it now, but I'll be crafting stuff in a couple of levels... 2. If I want to create a 1/2 dragon character with an alignment that's different than the dragon parent (eg LE gold) do I have to pay credits for that? I know I'll have to pay credits to start at ECL 4 and that I would have to pay credits to play a LE gold dragon. 1. Unfortunately not. It has to be something you can do now. Sorry. 2. Half-dragon alignment is "Same as the dragon variety," which implies "always." So yes, you'd have to spend credits to deviate from that. It's 5 credits per step, so LE gold would be 10 credits. Sure you can't be green or blue?
Horatius 04-08-07, 07:06 PM	1. Unfortunately not. It has to be something you can do now. Sorry. 2. Half-dragon alignment is "Same as the dragon variety," which implies "always." So yes, you'd have to spend credits to deviate from that. It's 5 credits per step, so LE gold would be 10 credits. Sure you can't be green or blue? Could be. I'd prefer a line attack, actually, but immunity to fire is better at lower levels (scorching ray, etc) If I wanted to change alignment later would it cost 10 or 20 credits? (ie. do I pay 5 for each step as normal or an extra 5 for each step because it's an 'always')
MindWandererB 04-08-07, 07:15 PM	Could be. I'd prefer a line attack, actually, but immunity to fire is better at lower levels (scorching ray, etc) If I wanted to change alignment later would it cost 10 or 20 credits? (ie. do I pay 5 for each step as normal or an extra 5 for each step because it's an 'always') I would infer 20. You sure the character has to be lawful evil? I can't think of any reason for that exact alignment except for monk/assassin or monk/blackguard.
Horatius 04-08-07, 07:28 PM	I would infer 20. You sure the character has to be lawful evil? I can't think of any reason for that exact alignment except for monk/assassin or monk/blackguard. Bingo! I'm kicking around the idea of a 1/2 dragon smasher with a couple of levels of monk. Might have to modify my intended progression if the credit cost is too high. I was going to make a psiwar based trip/grappler, until I realized there were already about 6 of them...:)
Eluria 04-08-07, 07:45 PM	So, normally character changes have to be approved in the training hall; however, what if the changes are in response to a violation? e.g., Telin rightfully pointed out that Mohmat lacks the requisite skills to craft the armor he's wearing... if I would like to refund that ill-gotten suit and purchase something legal, does that require approval as a character change?
NiQil 04-08-07, 07:54 PM	So, normally character changes have to be approved in the training hall; however, what if the changes are in response to a violation? e.g., Telin rightfully pointed out that Mohmat lacks the requisite skills to craft the armor he's wearing... if I would like to refund that ill-gotten suit and purchase something legal, does that require approval as a character change? Changes that are necessary to make a character legal normally do not need approval, unless part of the change you are making is not related to the violation.
Vathelokai 04-08-07, 08:11 PM	I did some checking and Defenders of the Faith (from 3.0) has Dire Bat carry limit at 172 lbs (p13 - under specail mounts). Of course, that's a secondary source. I don't know what's going on in the fight, of course, but Harbinger expanded weighs x8, so he should easily pull it down. LPG on the other hand... There is a violation on Nyphanalith in the prison; his encumberance is not listed. I did the math and found that the kobold is medium enc. Adding it up, the direbat is carrying ~150 lbs. If it's a quadraped, then that is light, but if the bat is a biped, then that is medium enc. and it cannot fly. I'll go with the defenders of the faith reference combined with the SRD giant owl and giant eagle; it seems the designers considered a winged creature to be a quadraped (I hope no one strains this to try to include winged PCs... ;) )
Horatius 04-08-07, 08:26 PM	There is a violation on Nyphanalith in the prison; his encumberance is not listed. I did the math and found that the kobold is medium enc. Adding it up, the direbat is carrying ~150 lbs. If it's a quadraped, then that is light, but if the bat is a biped, then that is medium enc. and it cannot fly. I'll go with the defenders of the faith reference combined with the SRD giant owl and giant eagle; it seems the designers considered a winged creature to be a quadraped (I hope no one strains this to try to include winged PCs... ;) ) The DotF ref of 172 represents a large biped of Str 17 I think (86 x 2), which makes sense. Treating winged creatures as quadrupeds is silly.
Vathelokai 04-08-07, 09:13 PM	The DotF ref of 172 represents a large biped of Str 17 I think (86 x 2), which makes sense. Hrmm... quadrapeds get x3 carry capacity... must be a 3.0 thing Treating winged creatures as quadrupeds is silly.Agreed, but that seems to be the rule.
Malither76 04-09-07, 12:52 AM	question, How are people casting spells with different energy types. Energy substitution is from Complete Arcane. when and how did this come about here?
Zevox 04-09-07, 12:53 AM	question, How are people casting spells with different energy types. Energy substitution is from Complete Arcane. when and how did this come about here? A long time ago, because Energy Substitution is in the Divine section of the SRD (taken from the book Deities & Demigods I believe). Zevox
Malither76 04-09-07, 12:59 AM	yep, sure enough its there, I just noticed it in a fight and was thinking thats not core, but I like it. thanks
One_Marine 04-09-07, 02:44 AM	Do firearms cost credits to use?
Zevox 04-09-07, 08:42 AM	Do firearms cost credits to use? Nope. You just need to craft them yourself, and they're all yours. Zevox
McJarvis 04-09-07, 12:27 PM	Quick issue I'm dealing with in my head-> For the last or two I've been attempting to do the numbers on a Mystic Theurge. I essentially came to the conclusion that, ability modifiers dependant, they come into their own around level 9 or 10 based on mass-spell levels available to them alone. When I further thought about it, however, I realized that a team of a Wizard and a Cleric(each at ECL 8) would be better than an ECL 10 Mystic Theurge, since they would get 2 standard actions a turn & each have an extra level of casting prowess. Same problem for the Cerebremancer. Is this as big of a deal as I'm thinking? The only advantage the Mystic could possible have over the team are... Higher saving throws(maybe?) 2 more HD 1 more BAB(maybe? probably not due to multiclassing ineffeciently) More GP(haven't figured out the total-> what's ECL10 wealth - 2xECL8 wealth?) And then the team gets better spellcasting & 2 spells per turn. Heck, they even have the extra feat(wizard gets his 5th level bonus feat), & if one of them is a druid they get all the class abilities too.... Am I crazy, or do our team-up rules make the Cereb and Mystic completely not worth it?
hogarth 04-09-07, 12:37 PM	Am I crazy, or do our team-up rules make the Cereb and Mystic completely not worth it? I'll go even further and say that (at least at higher levels) I think the team rules are overpowered. For a worst-case situation, who do you think has the edge: a fully-optimized 20th level spellcaster (with allies), or two fully-optimized 18th level spellcasters (with allies x2)?
TheMagister 04-09-07, 12:39 PM	My fighter-bard team can kick your fighter/bard's butt. :cool:
Rauul 04-09-07, 12:39 PM	Question.. can a 5th level charater take the lich template via a Quest.. (as it states in the rules section)? or do they have to have the minimum caster level of 11+ as stated under the template rules.. I am assuming the spells are cast for them.. for doing the Quest.. to aquire the potion or something wierd.. and at the end of the quest they become an Undead..
TheMagister 04-09-07, 12:40 PM	Look in the Courtroom or in the Meta-rules in the Rules thread. Something in there addresses a player here going for the Lich template.
Abyssal Stalker 04-09-07, 12:40 PM	Question.. can a 5th level charater take the lich template via a Quest.. (as it states in the rules section)? or do they have to have the minimum caster level of 11+ as stated under the template rules.. I am assuming the spells are cast for them.. for doing the Quest.. to aquire the potion or something wierd.. and at the end of the quest they become an Undead.. I was told when I asked about liches that you must meet the CL.
TheMagister 04-09-07, 12:41 PM	Be sure and look to make certain, though.
Macbrea 04-09-07, 01:23 PM	I have asked about Lich before. The quest pays for the philactery but the requirement of 'Caster must be at least Caster level 11+' is a requirement very similar in fashion to the way Ioun stone is written. It isn't a CL of the item it is a requirement to create the item in the first place. It is written exactly the same way.
Hirumajoe 04-09-07, 01:25 PM	Higher saving throws(maybe?) 2 more HD 1 more BAB(maybe? probably not due to multiclassing ineffeciently) More GP(haven't figured out the total-> what's ECL10 wealth - 2xECL8 wealth?) And then the team gets better spellcasting & 2 spells per turn. Heck, they even have the extra feat(wizard gets his 5th level bonus feat), & if one of them is a druid they get all the class abilities too.... Am I crazy, or do our team-up rules make the Cereb and Mystic completely not worth it? Well, there is the fact that you personally can't have a team. You have to do it with another player. But yes, assuming you can find someone else then the team rules do make the Cerebmancer and the Mystic Theurge obsolete. According to the rules thread, an 8th level character starts with 28,000gp. A 10th level character starts with 51,000. Thus the team has 56,000 total, ~10% (5,000 gp) more. However that team needs to buy roughly twice as much to get the same level of protection. I.e. You need twice the Bracers of Armor, twice the cloaks of resistance, etc. So its kinda hard to compare the total gold amounts head on. Although as you go higher in levels, you're actually forced to spread out your gold more anyways, so I think the advantage does go to teams more and more as you go to higher ECLs. Compare save or dies for instance. A 10th level character is going to have a +1 on his DCs due to 1 higher spell level plus figure +1 to his saves from classes, plus he can afford a +4 Stat item (16,000) along with a +5 Resistance cloak (25,000) for 41,000 gp. The two lower level players can afford a +2 Stat item (4,000 gp) and a +4 Resistance cloak (16,000). Its a net 2 Offensive DC and a net 2 to saves advantage the higher level character has. Which isn't all that much compared to 2 actions a round... However, at 18th and 20th levels you have so much money you can easily max out on Resistance and Stat bonuses to key abilities.
McJarvis 04-09-07, 01:43 PM	See, that's just the thing though...if you make a 10th level MT that is based on save-or-die effects, then you're actually 1-save DC _lower_ than each member of that cleric/wizard team. (since you have a casting level of 7th for cleric/wizard, they have a casting level of 8th...so you really would get 1 lower at ECL 11)
hogarth 04-09-07, 01:50 PM	See, that's just the thing though...if you make a 10th level MT that is based on save-or-die effects, then you're actually 1-save DC _lower_ than each member of that cleric/wizard team. (since you have a casting level of 7th for cleric/wizard, they have a casting level of 8th...so you really would get 1 lower at ECL 11) To me, it seems like you're kind of mixing two issues, though: Mystic Theurge and Cerebremancer are fairly weak classes. [True; there are lots of weak classes, like Metamind or Duelist.] A cleric/wizard team is fairly powerful. [True; I think any team is fairly powerful against a comparable single character.] Just my two cents.
McJarvis 04-09-07, 02:20 PM	To me, it seems like you're kind of mixing two issues, though: Mystic Theurge and Cerebremancer are fairly weak classes. [True; there are lots of weak classes, like Metamind or Duelist.] A cleric/wizard team is fairly powerful. [True; I think any team is fairly powerful against a comparable single character.] Just my two cents. When you consider that the team can do practically everything the single character can, but better & faster...I think it's a reasonable assertion. MT/Cereb are pretty weak from ECL's 5->8, but at 9+ they really should become a force to be rekoned with. (Especially if the character in question applies pre-buffs in a smart manner...)
Hirumajoe 04-09-07, 03:05 PM	I have a really, really, dumb character build question. Blackguards have no "ex-blackguard" section like Paladins do. This implies if Blackguards change alignment, they retain all blackguard abilities. What happens when you have, say, a Human Fighter 7/Blackguard 3 who becomes Lawful Good and starts taking levels in Paladin? Does he gain gain double Cha bonus to all saves? Does he get 3 + Cha mod turn attempts and 3 + Cha mod rebuke attempts? Does he also gain the "Fallen Paladin" abilities as he adds more Paladin levels? And so on?
MindWandererB 04-09-07, 03:10 PM	I have a really, really, dumb character build question. Blackguards have no "ex-blackguard" section like Paladins do. This implies if Blackguards change alignment, they retain all blackguard abilities. What happens when you have, say, a Human Fighter 7/Blackguard 3 who becomes Lawful Good and starts taking levels in Paladin? Does he gain gain double Cha bonus to all saves? Does he get 3 + Cha mod turn attempts and 3 + Cha mod rebuke attempts? Does he also gain the "Fallen Paladin" abilities as he adds more Paladin levels? And so on? Not true. The rule for all prestige classes is that if you no longer meet entry requirements, you lose all class abilities.
Hirumajoe 04-09-07, 03:13 PM	Oh really? Thanks for the info. Well, then I'm glad I didn't take dodge for my Human feat on Valen... Metamorphosis + Shadow Dancer wouldn't work then. Edit: So wait, the Dragon Disciple class negates itself? Since one of the requirements is that you are non-dragon, while at 10th level you gain the dragon race from the Half-dragon template... So you no longer meet the requirements and lose the benefits of the prestige class... :D
MindWandererB 04-09-07, 03:45 PM	Oh really? Thanks for the info. Well, then I'm glad I didn't take dodge for my Human feat on Valen... Metamorphosis + Shadow Dancer wouldn't work then. Edit: So wait, the Dragon Disciple class negates itself? Since one of the requirements is that you are non-dragon, while at 10th level you gain the dragon race from the Half-dragon template... So you no longer meet the requirements and lose the benefits of the prestige class... :D This one has been mentioned in the Char Op board. Yes, in the most literal sense, you are correct. Clearly that is not the intention.
templer10 04-09-07, 04:05 PM	if i level mid cycle can i memorize new spells into the new spell slots i got?
TelinArtho 04-09-07, 04:06 PM	if i level mid cycle can i memorize new spells into the new spell slots i got? Yes you may.
One_Marine 04-09-07, 05:38 PM	Nope. You just need to craft them yourself, and they're all yours. Zevox Ok, can you use the Rapid Shot feat with firemarms? I know it says you can use Rapid Reload.
Zevox 04-09-07, 05:40 PM	Ok, can you use the Rapid Shot feat with firemarms? I know it says you can use Rapid Reload. Of course. However, you should note (though I think it never got added to our rules anywhere), the last time it was asked what type of action rapid reload lets you reload as, it was settled on that it would be a swift action (not as fast as a free action, but faster than a move action, to reflect firearms being reloaded faster than heavy crossbows but slower than light ones). That means you can never fire more than 2 shots with a firearm, since swift actions can be done only once per round. Zevox
Hirumajoe 04-09-07, 05:42 PM	Wrong thread... Sorry.
One_Marine 04-09-07, 05:46 PM	Of course. However, you should note (though I think it never got added to our rules anywhere), the last time it was asked what type of action rapid reload lets you reload as, it was settled on that it would be a swift action (not as fast as a free action, but faster than a move action, to reflect firearms being reloaded faster than heavy crossbows but slower than light ones). That means you can never fire more than 2 shots with a firearm, since swift actions can be done only once per round. Zevox And that's for both the pistol and the revolver, right? Wouldn't it make more sense to make pistols equal to light crossbows and muskets to heavy crossbows? I'll go with the swift action for both, but I'm just curious.
Zevox 04-09-07, 05:49 PM	And that's for both the pistol and the revolver, right? Wouldn't it make more sense to make pistols equal to light crossbows and muskets to heavy crossbows? I'll go with the swift action for both, but I'm just curious. Its for both, yes. It was ruled this way because normally, both take a standard action to reload. Thats longer than the normal for a light crossbow (a move action) and shorter than the normal for a heavy (a full-round action); hence the compromise of a swift action to reload. Zevox
One_Marine 04-09-07, 06:01 PM	Ah, that makes sense, lol. Ok, thanks for the help.
Horatius 04-09-07, 06:36 PM	I have a free full activity I have to use so I might as well make some arrows. I assume I have to leave them at home since I'm mid cycle. So If I want, say, 20 arrows each of Cold Iron, Alchemical Silver and Adamantine I think that's 1244gp, right? (2 + 20 x 2.05 + 20 x 60.05) Also, where do I post that I've done this?
MindWandererB 04-09-07, 06:42 PM	Also, where do I post that I've done this?PM it to Pitlords. I'll put it in the following week's pairings, where you can link to it.
Horatius 04-09-07, 06:57 PM	I presume since it's a free full activity I earned last week I can add them to my char sheet right away...?
templer10 04-09-07, 07:13 PM	if i had a fight extended i get a free full activity? and if so how much Gold is possible to earn with a moneymaking skill as a full activity (since i got nothing better to use it for).
TelinArtho 04-09-07, 07:14 PM	Moneymaking skills cannot be used during a full activity nor as a full activity (for obvious balance reasons)
Etiquette_Gnome 04-09-07, 11:28 PM	Can you create a character with custom items obtained through Gather Information before actually fighting?
SauroGrenom 04-09-07, 11:46 PM	Can you create a character with custom items obtained through Gather Information before actually fighting? No. You don't get to use free activities or full activities at all before creation.
Etiquette_Gnome 04-10-07, 12:06 AM	Guess I'll make a character and go through a lot of Full Activities until I get everything I want.
templer10 04-10-07, 09:49 AM	couple of questions -fight - i pikced up fro ToK- anyone know what weapon is the spiritual weapon i the god isnt listed? the guy has war domain and the WF from it is longbow - shall i take it then that the favored weapon is longbow?(is it even possible for spiritual weapon to be a ranged weapon?) or do i go by the weapons listed for clerics without gods? and just to be sure (since i dont do touch attack wizards often) - when holding the charge on a touch spell- you can continue to do touch attacks - round after round until you finally hit - correct?
Zevox 04-10-07, 09:51 AM	couple of questions -fight - i pikced up fro ToK- anyone know what weapon is the spiritual weapon i the god isnt listed? the guy has war domain and the WF from it is longbow - shall i take it then that the favored weapon is longbow?(is it even possible for spiritual weapon to be a ranged weapon?) or do i go by the weapons listed for clerics without gods? and just to be sure (since i dont do touch attack wizards often) - when holding the charge on a touch spell- you can continue to do touch attacks - round after round until you finally hit - correct? Spiritual Weapon - If the cleric has the War Domain, the weapon they gain proficiency/focus with is the Deity's favored weapon, which what the spiritual weapon is supposed to take the form of. So in this case it would be a longbow, yes. Touch spells: Unless the spell specifies otherwise, that is the rule yes. Zevox
Rauul 04-10-07, 09:54 AM	couple of questions -fight - i pikced up fro ToK- anyone know what weapon is the spiritual weapon i the god isnt listed? the guy has war domain and the WF from it is longbow - shall i take it then that the favored weapon is longbow?(is it even possible for spiritual weapon to be a ranged weapon?) or do i go by the weapons listed for clerics without gods? and just to be sure (since i dont do touch attack wizards often) - when holding the charge on a touch spell- you can continue to do touch attacks - round after round until you finally hit - correct? base it off thier alignment.. for weapon type and they keep the touch attack till it hits or they cast another spell that cancels it.. Holding the Charge If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
TelinArtho 04-10-07, 10:17 AM	base it off thier alignment.. for weapon type I just want to point out that this is the last step. 1. If the character has the war domain - the bonus proficiency and WF are with the favored weapon - use the same weapon for the Spiritual Weapon. 2. If the god is described in the character's background or to an easily referenceable source (such as some monster dieties in the Errata, in the PHB or in the monster manual (if you have them). 3. If none of these are fruitful - base it on alignment. 4. If the character is neutral - just assume it is a 20/x2 crit weapon.
templer10 04-10-07, 10:23 AM	I just want to point out that this is the last step. 1. If the character has the war domain - the bonus proficiency and WF are with the favored weapon - use the same weapon for the Spiritual Weapon. 2. If the god is described in the character's background or to an easily referenceable source (such as some monster dieties in the Errata, in the PHB or in the monster manual (if you have them). 3. If none of these are fruitful - base it on alignment. 4. If the character is neutral - just assume it is a 20/x2 crit weapon. he has favored weapon as longbow (taken since tha is the weapo focus he got from war domin) so iam going with that.
hogarth 04-10-07, 10:33 AM	4. If the character is neutral - just assume it is a 20/x2 crit weapon. Note to self: give cleric characters a bad-ass favored weapon. ;)
TelinArtho 04-10-07, 10:36 AM	Well, if you don't specify a favored weapon - you don't deserve to gain the benefits of one who does...
hogarth 04-10-07, 10:46 AM	Well, if you don't specify a favored weapon - you don't deserve to gain the benefits of one who does... Apparently the abstract principle of elan transfiguration is represented by a kukri. Who knew? :D (Not that I'm planning on casting Spiritual Weapon any time soon, but you never know...)
TelinArtho 04-10-07, 10:52 AM	Well - the kukri isn't a great choice in my opinion... if you want 18-20/x2 - you might as well go for a falchion... cleric's look darn good when they cleave your head off with a nice 2 handed sword...
hogarth 04-10-07, 10:55 AM	Well - the kukri isn't a great choice in my opinion... if you want 18-20/x2 - you might as well go for a falchion... cleric's look darn good when they cleave your head off with a nice 2 handed sword... They're exactly the same as far as Spiritual Weapon is concerned. I have no current plans to have a cleric with the War domain, so any other consideration is irrelevant.
templer10 04-10-07, 11:17 AM	just making sure- a natural 20 on the confirmation roll for a crit is also an autohit true?
Hirumajoe 04-10-07, 11:18 AM	So, I'm trying to figure out if its worth it to purchase a Necklace of Adaptation (9,000 gp) and an eversmoking bottle (5,400 gp) in the near future for Valen Sky. He should have somewhere between 10,000 and 13,000 at the end of his 3FC (after this coming week's fight). First, I want to double check that smoke in fact casts a shadow(s). Since Valen is going to be grabbing Shadow Dancer at 11th level, I'd like to have the ability to hide anywhere, no matter the terrain or lighting. Also, does slowly suffocating your opponent to death count as taking action or would you get hit by a delay penalty? (I'm guessing yes you do get hit by penalities since it has to be one of the slowest ways to kill your opponent...) Although maybe I should put of grabbing that combo until 10th level and work on other things (like improving my Greatsword to suppression (Effectively a targeted 1d20+11 dispel check everytime it hits...) or improving his AC (another +1 Armor for 5000gp and +1 Deflection for 6000.)
Erithmu 04-10-07, 11:19 AM	just making sure- a natural 20 on the confirmation roll for a crit is also an autohit true? Yea it is ...
McJarvis 04-10-07, 11:25 AM	Also, does slowly suffocating your opponent to death count as taking action or would you get hit by a delay penalty? (I'm guessing yes you do get hit by penalities since it has to be one of the slowest ways to kill your opponent...) I played around with this idea with Poe(since he was breathless), but met strong resistance when I hinted at it in the forums. Anything that even remotely sounds like it'll dissipate smoke apparently will do such without letting the bottle replentish the smoke in teh area -_-. That aside, you need about four bottles to fill the arena's routinely(and even then you can't fill things like the plains...) Overall-> I would strongly recommend not thinking of suffocating your opponent as a tactic. Nobody will like it when someone eventually does it(much like share pain+lava)...so there's I don't see much reason to even try this avenue of killing. =\ edit-> As a general note, the slowest way of killing someone is to get an Psion Uncarnate at 15th level with a perminant item of anti-magic field(or null-psionic field, at your discretion). Short of bringing a Mindblade with you, there is no way to kill the Uncarnate at ECL 15. [So he can lay prone & let you attack him while he's helpless until you die of old age] I'm fairly certain the delay penalties don't count if you sit in plain sight & let your opponent attack you as they wish :)
hogarth 04-10-07, 11:31 AM	So, I'm trying to figure out if its worth it to purchase a Necklace of Adaptation (9,000 gp) and an eversmoking bottle (5,400 gp) in the near future for Valen Sky. He should have somewhere between 10,000 and 13,000 at the end of his 3FC (after this coming week's fight). I thought about crafting an Eversmoking Bottle for Treetall Oakleg, but I decided against it on 3 grounds: The rules are unclear. How fast does it take smoke to "dissipate normally" without a wind? How does it work if I keep the bottle open while I'm moving? Even when the rules are clear, people here disagree with them. Namely, some people argue that "totally obscuring vision" means 20% concealment. :uh-huh: I'm not a big fan of battles where one player's strategy revolves around hiding and/or running away. If you're into playing a stealthy character though, maybe you'll find it worth the hassle.
Rauul 04-10-07, 11:31 AM	I played around with this idea with Poe(since he was breathless), but met strong resistance when I hinted at it in the forums. Anything that even remotely sounds like it'll dissipate smoke apparently will do such without letting the bottle replentish the smoke in teh area -_-. That aside, you need about four bottles to fill the arena's routinely(and even then you can't fill things like the plains...) Overall-> I would strongly recommend not thinking of suffocating your opponent as a tactic. Nobody will like it when someone eventually does it(much like share pain+lava)...so there's I don't see much reason to even try this avenue of killing. =\ edit-> As a general note, the slowest way of killing someone is to get an Psion Uncarnate at 15th level with a perminant item of anti-magic field(or null-psionic field, at your discretion). Short of bringing a Mindblade with you, there is no way to kill the Uncarnate at ECL 15. [So he can lay prone & let you attack him while he's helpless until you die of old age] hold person, rope use, drag behind the horse till dead... wonder what the escape artist check would be on that while being dragged at run speeds..
McJarvis 04-10-07, 11:33 AM	I see a pattern emerging... Random Gladiator-> So I was thinking about trying to kill people in this really obscure & completely weird way. McJarvis responds-> Yeah, I was considering that for ____ character.... Hogarth responds-> Yeah, I was considering that for ____ character.... ;)
TelinArtho 04-10-07, 11:33 AM	just making sure- a natural 20 on the confirmation roll for a crit is also an autohit true? That is correct.
Hirumajoe 04-10-07, 11:36 AM	I played around with this idea with Poe(since he was breathless), but met strong resistance when I hinted at it in the forums. Anything that even remotely sounds like it'll dissipate smoke apparently will do such without letting the bottle replentish the smoke in teh area -_-. That aside, you need about four bottles to fill the arena's routinely(and even then you can't fill things like the plains...) Hmm... So suffocating people sounds like it is out. In any case, I was just planning on keeping a single bottle on Valen himself, since a bottle not on anyone is auto-spotted (and rather easy to break). Though it should still be good enough to grant concealment/shadows I would think. Also can you clarify by what is meant by it won't let the bottle replenish the smoke in the area? I mean Gust of Wind lasts for a single round. I presume that the smoke would enter the area after that one round (if its within 50'). Similarly for a Wind Wall, after the 1 round/level was up it should be able to pass. The biggest problem would be Control Winds (pretty much a Druid only spell... and the rare Air Cleric). Control Weather has a 10 minute ramp up time so thats not a big deal.
McJarvis 04-10-07, 11:37 AM	Hmm... So suffocating people sounds like it is out. In any case, I was just planning on keeping a single bottle on Valen himself, since a bottle not on anyone is auto-spotted (and rather easy to break). Though it should still be good enough to grant concealment/shadows I would think. Also can you clarify by what is meant by it won't let the bottle replenish the smoke in the area? I mean Gust of Wind lasts for a single round. I presume that the smoke would enter the area after that one round (if its within 50'). Similarly for a Wind Wall, after the 1 round/level was up it should be able to pass. The biggest problem would be Control Winds (pretty much a Druid only spell... and the rare Air Cleric). Control Weather has a 10 minute ramp up time so thats not a big deal. I'm not even sure I understand the entire arguement-> But I believe it boiled down to me conjecturing that I could use the smoke to suffocate people & Sauro wanting to protect whatever psion he has that happens to have "create wind" as a power. ;) My point was that the bottle replentishes smoke in a certain area before wind can even dissipate it.(so long as the bottle is open)
hogarth 04-10-07, 11:38 AM	I see a pattern emerging... Random Gladiator-> So I was thinking about trying to kill people in this really obscure & completely weird way. How obscure could using an Eversmoking Bottle be if there are already CoCo house rules on it?
McJarvis 04-10-07, 11:39 AM	How obscure could using an Eversmoking Bottle be if there are already CoCo house rules on it? I'm fairly certain the house rules are only there because of our earlier conjecturing about its use-> I don't remember anyone actually using an eversmoking bottle in the arena.... I do remember, though, about a week of arguing in the elder's thread over the matter.[which was dumb, since Poe hadn't even created a bottle yet...]
Hirumajoe 04-10-07, 11:44 AM	I'm not even sure I understand the entire arguement-> But I believe it boiled down to me conjecturing that I could use the smoke to suffocate people & Sauro wanting to protect whatever psion he has that happens to have "create wind" as a power. ;) My point was that the bottle replentishes smoke in a certain area before wind can even dissipate it.(so long as the bottle is open) Ahh... I gotcha. I can see that going either way. You're looking at it from the instantly in a 50' radius perspective and Sauro was looking at it in the dissipates in a single round perspective. But coming into an area where there is currently no wind effect is not a problem. Which means all I really need to do is plant a couple daggers in the ground and just hide in those shadows for a few rounds. :D In any case, Control Air is a concentration power, which means the psion would need allies or solicit psicrystal (which lasts 1 round/ level). Again, not the greatest of problems for a shadow dancer.
hogarth 04-10-07, 11:45 AM	Can a gladiator take Ability Focus (Metamorphic Transfer)?
TelinArtho 04-10-07, 11:47 AM	Can a gladiator take Ability Focus (Metamorphic Transfer)? No because there is no saving throw for the feat and I'm not sure that Metamorphic transfer qualifies as a special ability for the ability focus to begin with. If your intent is to improve the DCs of the abilities gained through MT - the answer is no though.
Rauul 04-10-07, 11:47 AM	When buying a standard light warhorse.. does it know any tricks.. or do we have to purchuse the tricks seperate?
Abyssal Stalker 04-10-07, 11:48 AM	I see a pattern emerging... Random Gladiator-> So I was thinking about trying to kill people in this really obscure & completely weird way. McJarvis responds-> Yeah, I was considering that for ____ character.... Hogarth responds-> Yeah, I was considering that for ____ character.... ;) ...ToK responds: Yes, I did that last time I was here and it got nerfed... :rolleyes:
Abyssal Stalker 04-10-07, 11:49 AM	When buying a standard light warhorse.. does it know any tricks.. or do we have to purchuse the tricks seperate? It has combat riding
Rauul 04-10-07, 12:03 PM	It has combat riding anything special like approval or anything for a charater to buy a light warhorse, barding, military saddle, bit and bridle.. And can you activate a wand when it double moves?
McJarvis 04-10-07, 12:06 PM	anything special like approval or anything for a charater to buy a light warhorse, barding, military saddle, bit and bridle.. And can you activate a wand when it double moves? No approval needed for buying critters listed in the equipment section of the PhB. (or equipment for them either) To advance them is a different story ;) As for the wand/double moves thing-> I always thought yes, but I am presently confused on whether we allow that or not. ::confused::
hogarth 04-10-07, 12:06 PM	No because there is no saving throw for the feat and I'm not sure that Metamorphic transfer qualifies as a special ability for the ability focus to begin with. There is, in fact, a saving throw for the feat: "The save DC to resist a supernatural ability gained through Metamorphic Transfer (if it is an attack) is 10 + your Cha modifier + ½ your Hit Dice." I'm not sure whether Metamorphic Transfer itself counts as a "special attack", though.
TelinArtho 04-10-07, 12:06 PM	Nope - all of that is standard equipment and in the SRD. As to the wand - yes. If it does a double move - you generally activate it at the halfway point. I don't think there's even a concentration check for it.
hogarth 04-10-07, 12:08 PM	When buying a standard light warhorse.. does it know any tricks.. or do we have to purchuse the tricks seperate? You can buy it trained with Combat Riding, or you can buy it untrained and train it yourself (or pay to have it trained) as you see fit.
Hirumajoe 04-10-07, 12:12 PM	I thought about crafting an Eversmoking Bottle for Treetall Oakleg, but I decided against it on 3 grounds: The rules are unclear. How fast does it take smoke to "dissipate normally" without a wind? How does it work if I keep the bottle open while I'm moving? Even when the rules are clear, people here disagree with them. Namely, some people argue that "totally obscuring vision" means 20% concealment. :uh-huh: I'm not a big fan of battles where one player's strategy revolves around hiding and/or running away. If you're into playing a stealthy character though, maybe you'll find it worth the hassle. I look at it this way: At high levels, Wizards (or at the very least, Spellcasters) are the most powerful characters. How do you beat a Wizard (spellcaster)? A) Be a Wizard (spellcaster) and/or B) Not be findable by said Wizard before you can kill him/her/it. I mean, what the heck does a non-caster do against a Force Cage? Especially coupled with a Quickened Dimensional Anchor, just to prevent any funny movement business. As for the smoking bottle itself, total obscuration or 20% concealment is fine by me. Both let me hide. And I'm pretty sure smoke casts a shadow, so I should be doubly fine. And touchsight lets me avoid most of the problems of total obscuration. As for hiding as a strategy in and of itself, I see no big problem with it. Invisibility is a given fact in the CoCo. If you don't have a way of dealing with it, then you lose at the higher levels, since alot of people will have access. Thats the same as hiding, it just requires fewer rolls. Similarly with Blacklight. It only drags things out when the odds of hitting are 1 in 20 with a deflect arrows thrown in. And alot of fancy maneuvering is required. As for running away, what the heck else is an archer/wizard supposed to do? The whole point is to use range to your advantage. Successful archers and casters have high mobility. Slow characters get chopped up by melee. And in general, they're attacking while running away. So again, not a big slow down. You really only run into problems when it the running and hiding (and healing) are given priority over the shooting and killing. Like that one forest fight Valen was in long ago, but I've since then learned my lesson.:D
hogarth 04-10-07, 12:44 PM	You really only run into problems when it the running and hiding (and healing) are given priority over the shooting and killing. Like that one forest fight Valen was in long ago, but I've since then learned my lesson.:D When I pitlord, my least favorite type of gladiators is those who are 99% defense and 1% offense (I'm looking at you, Noko...). If I don't like those type of builds as a pitlord, why would I inflict one on someone else? That's not a problem with Valen Sky, though. In the end, I decided that a Deeper Darkness spell plus a few invisibility potions would suit Treetall's purposes just as well. YMMV.
SauroGrenom 04-10-07, 01:36 PM	When I pitlord, my least favorite type of gladiators is those who are 99% defense and 1% offense (I'm looking at you, Noko...). If I don't like those type of builds as a pitlord, why would I inflict one on someone else?You speak to my heart! :clap: When I get a battle where characters are being evasive, I just groan inside. There's nothing like hiding tactics to make a battle run 4 times as long. You get opposed spot and move silent checks for every participant and their familiar and cohort and mount. Then add in some active spot checks. Don't forget to recalculate the distance between everyone each round so you can add in distance modifiers. Then try being in the forest and use a different distance mod and terrain dependent modifiers to MS checks. That's even worse than the longbow vs wand of CLW fights you get in ECL6 or so.
SoulLord 04-10-07, 01:39 PM	Im all for empowering warriors rather than further nerf again wizards. we could include the Tome of battle for example some very nice options for warriors there. As for the forcecage wiz 7 spell 1,500 gp cost each time it's cast and the quickened Dimensional anchor wiz 4 +4 quickened = 8 I don't think our warriors in the open coco league will have to worry much about them.
McJarvis 04-10-07, 01:50 PM	Assuming 1,500 gp every fight.... 1,500 gp * 3 = 4,500 4,500 / 50 = 90 Sqrt(90) = 9->10 Which means by level 10 forcecage would be an affordable expendible. :-O
Erithmu 04-10-07, 01:50 PM	Im all for empowering warriors rather than further nerf again wizards. we could include the Tome of battle for example some very nice options for warriors there. As for the forcecage wiz 7 spell 1,500 gp cost each time it's cast and the quickened Dimensional anchor wiz 4 +4 quickened = 8 I don't think our warriors in the open coco league will have to worry much about them. I think you might be surprised ... Lets just pick harvey for a second: his AMF staff is about 500gp a charge, Wand of MM9 11 charges is about 1500gp, even if they use about 6 charges + other expendables the cost catches up pretty quick. Uhme was running 1000gp buff, (one of the reason why I dislike the return of items while frozen, I don't have an answer, but I'm not sure there would be a fair one.) Just some food for thought. Add on the fact that you still then have to kill them somehow
Hirumajoe 04-10-07, 02:15 PM	Add on the fact that you still then have to kill them somehow Oh, thats the easy part. If the target lacks a dimensional travel ability, then he starts suffocating in 6 hours. If you need him dead quicker, you can make a barred version and cast some AoE's inside. Or if you actually want to take two turns for a guaranteed kill, cast Dimensional Anchor on turn 1, use a Rod of quickening on a Cloudkill on turn 2, then cast the Force Cage on turn 2, the windowless version. Should be dead fairly quickly. Of course this all doesn't apply to another wizard, who obviously can disintegrate the walls and dispel the attacks.
SoulLord 04-10-07, 02:18 PM	lets see since its a lvl 7 spell the wand won't be able to hold it so it has to be a staff 375 gp * 7 (spell level) * 13 (minimum caster lvl) = 34,125 cost of staff alone adding material component cost 1,500 *50 = 75,000 gives us a total of 109,125 gp I don't see many characters earning and saving that much up to be able to afford such a thing.
hogarth 04-10-07, 02:25 PM	https://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070410a In other news, the Rules of the Game has clarified that a monk with a claw/claw/bite routine can combine all of that with a flurry of unarmed strikes (e.g. flurry/flurry/claw/claw/bite).
McJarvis 04-10-07, 02:29 PM	lets see since its a lvl 7 spell the wand won't be able to hold it so it has to be a staff 375 gp * 7 (spell level) * 13 (minimum caster lvl) = 34,125 cost of staff alone adding material component cost 1,500 *50 = 75,000 gives us a total of 109,125 gp I don't see many characters earning and saving that much up to be able to afford such a thing. Divide by 50 to make it 1 use costs 50 charges on the staff, and bam-> 20,000 gp expendible item :)
TelinArtho 04-10-07, 02:32 PM	Except the material component cost is not reduced...
Hirumajoe 04-10-07, 02:36 PM	Bah, just wait until the ECL 13 leagues when you can cast it yourself. Those are opening up soon, right? Then its a reasonable investment for victory against virtually any melee type and quite a few other non-caster types.
Zevox 04-10-07, 03:34 PM	As to the wand - yes. If it does a double move - you generally activate it at the halfway point. I don't think there's even a concentration check for it. You are correct. Theres never a concentration check for wands - they require only a command word to activate, so theres no concentrating involved. You can't even interrupt them with a readied action because of that. Zevox
Etiquette_Gnome 04-10-07, 04:07 PM	What kind of miniquest must I go on to get a leadership cohort? Any specific rules I need to follow? When do I submit the statistics for my desired cohort? Heck, how much money/stats do they have? Is it part of the 3FC, and can I still perform a Free Activity?
TelinArtho 04-10-07, 04:08 PM	Okay - now that I've had the time and ability to update the CEF posts that needed updating, can I get someone to take a look over them to make sure I didn't screw up? Essentially, I updated each one so that the previous version is still there - just SBLOCKed in with a Mar21 to note when it was in effect. I actually think I got everything - but I am human - and there's a lot to take in - so it is very possible to have a few errors in there. The blessing is the accounting checks in the guild hall are actually very useful for someone like me...
Zevox 04-10-07, 04:11 PM	What kind of miniquest must I go on to get a leadership cohort? Any specific rules I need to follow? When do I submit the statistics for my desired cohort? Heck, how much money/stats do they have? Is it part of the 3FC, and can I still perform a Free Activity? 1) Um, a typical miniquest? Theres only two types - normal and Guild, and this obviously isn't a Guild one. 2) Just that the MQ's EL cannot be lower than the cohort's ECL. 3) Whenever you wish. You can put them on your sheet before or after the quest - if before, just make sure to mention they haven't been obtained yet. 4) Stats, they use 25 point buy. Money, they have squat - you have to pay for everything. 5) It can be part of the 3FC, or if you're between cycles it can be done out-of-cycle. If its in cycle, like any in-cycle miniquest, it has to be EL = your ECL; if its out of cycle, it can be as low as the cohort's ECL. And you cannot do free activities on any quest/miniquest. Zevox
SoulLord 04-10-07, 04:24 PM	Bah, just wait until the ECL 13 leagues when you can cast it yourself. Those are opening up soon, right? Then its a reasonable investment for victory against virtually any melee type and quite a few other non-caster types. I don't see the ecl 13 league opening up any time soon but by that time there are more than a few things to escape those situations well within the price range of a 13 th lvl fighter. and no I am not saying how :)
McJarvis 04-10-07, 04:32 PM	I don't see the ecl 13 league opening up any time soon but by that time there are more than a few things to escape those situations well within the price range of a 13 th lvl fighter. and no I am not saying how :) The "Plan", as I know it, is to wait until Iron Man is completed. Once it is completed ECL's 10->14 will be unfrozen & pairings will be rolled from those levels mixed.(I think it's 11&12 will be rolled together, 13&14.)
Macbrea 04-10-07, 04:34 PM	Well, Technically as soon as the IMT is complete leagues 10-15 were suppose to open. Now, granted noone will be in the ecl 13 league for awhile.
Etiquette_Gnome 04-10-07, 04:35 PM	Shouldn't a cohort actually have some of his own money? The cohort should be equipped with gear appropriate for its level... If you use the NPC gear chart, that means 3,300gp for a level 4 character.
TelinArtho 04-10-07, 04:38 PM	Shouldn't a cohort actually have some of his own money? If you use the NPC gear chart, that means 3,300gp for a level 4 character. Right - but then suddenly at 6th level - some characters get a huge boost in cash... and that goes up by level... Leadership already is a huge benefit in the CoCo - giving those allies equipment will make that benefit bigger...
Zevox 04-10-07, 04:39 PM	Shouldn't a cohort actually have some of his own money? No, else getting a cohort would be a source of free money, which would throw off the xp/gp ratio and make the feat even more powerful than it already is. So cohorts come with no money or equipment of their own to maintain that balance issue. Zevox
Macbrea 04-10-07, 04:40 PM	No... This is to make sure that people spend their cash on their cohort if they bring them into the arena. Without it a cohort could come with items. Use them to benefit the character then leave to be replaced by another cohort.
Etiquette_Gnome 04-10-07, 04:47 PM	Then you guys might want to state this in your little house rule section, because this is the first and only place I can find such a ruling, & the SRD clearly states that cohorts have their own equipment. If abuse is a problem, just set their expendable limit to nil and don't allow them to leave behind gear. And it would only be logical to remove all of the gear that mercenaries have (following the NPC chart), using your arguments.
MindWandererB 04-10-07, 04:57 PM	Then you guys might want to state this in your little house rule section, because this is the first and only place I can find such a ruling, & the SRD clearly states that cohorts have their own equipment. If abuse is a problem, just set their expendable limit to nil and don't allow them to leave behind gear. And it would only be logical to remove all of the gear that mercenaries have (following the NPC chart), using your arguments.You're right... I can't find that in our house rules. Can anyone else point it out?https://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070410a In other news, the Rules of the Game has clarified that a monk with a claw/claw/bite routine can combine all of that with a flurry of unarmed strikes (e.g. flurry/flurry/claw/claw/bite).Actually, it "clarified" that a flurry of blows cannot be used with natural weapons at all. This is unfortunately in direct conflict with the FAQ, and we consider the FAQ to be a more primary source that the RotG (because Skip is a bigger idiot than Andy).
hogarth 04-10-07, 05:14 PM	Actually, it "clarified" that a flurry of blows cannot be used with natural weapons at all. This is unfortunately in direct conflict with the FAQ, and we consider the FAQ to be a more primary source that the RotG (because Skip is a bigger idiot than Andy). I must've missed that line because of my built-in B.S. filter. :yuck:
McJarvis 04-10-07, 06:03 PM	(because Skip is a bigger idiot than Andy). Aw, you just had to break out the fat jokes :(
Malither76 04-10-07, 06:49 PM	ok, I can't seem to find this, how do I craft/scribe my own scrolls. Is this a free activity as long as the amount is under 1000gp. If its done in cycle, say its fight 3 and you do this as your free activity do you have them for that fight? Also what about adding spells to spell book, does this cost an action or can it be done out of cycle just like buying equipment? thanks
MindWandererB 04-10-07, 06:52 PM	ok, I can't seem to find this, how do I craft/scribe my own scrolls. Is this a free activity as long as the amount is under 1000gp. If its done in cycle, say its fight 3 and you do this as your free activity do you have them for that fight? Also what about adding spells to spell book, does this cost an action or can it be done out of cycle just like buying equipment? thanks Crafted items are added to your inventory at the end of your current cycle. So in your example, you have to wait a fight. You get up to 1000 gp market value as a free activity, or up to 7000 as a full activity. Adding spells to a spellbook takes no time (oddly, actually).
templer10 04-10-07, 07:25 PM	if anyone is bored and want to review a new char at ECL 6 for whatever i missed - check here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12050749&postcount=1106) for El rapido - getting those right feats and right skillpoints for appling for everything took some doing but i got 8 feats, 70 (sometimes) move speed who can pretty much ignore most ground based obstacles and deep impact into the same build. (saves suck through).
SauroGrenom 04-10-07, 07:31 PM	You can get that speed up a bit more. Take a level in the swift ranger variant. That gives another +10 unamed bonus on speed.
templer10 04-10-07, 07:34 PM	You can get that speed up a bit more. Take a level in the swift ranger variant. That gives another +10 unamed bonus on speed. dont have the credits- maybe next level. Althrough the X5 run speed and being able to charge/run not in a strait line makes up for that a bit.
templer10 04-10-07, 07:39 PM	You can get that speed up a bit more. Take a level in the swift ranger variant. That gives another +10 unamed bonus on speed. i just checked- and what do you mean - swift ranger? the varient that you lose combat style and get teh wild shape and fast movement? if so- does the speed added from that stack with barbarian fast movement? the SRD say: anger A ranger might forgo training in weapon combat in exchange for the ability to take animal form and move swiftly through the woodlands. Gain Wild shape (as druid; Small or Medium animals only), fast movement (as barbarian)." seems you get teh same unnamed speed bonus barbarian gets.
Erithmu 04-10-07, 07:39 PM	You can get that speed up a bit more. Take a level in the swift ranger variant. That gives another +10 unamed bonus on speed. He can't take the swift ranger variant as the speed increase is based on Barb class feature.
Zevox 04-10-07, 07:40 PM	You can get that speed up a bit more. Take a level in the swift ranger variant. That gives another +10 unamed bonus on speed. You're referring to the simple variant? If so, he can't do that unless he gives up his Barbarian level (not allowed to have levels in both a variant and a base class that grants the same features as the variant). Zevox
SauroGrenom 04-10-07, 07:43 PM	You're referring to the simple variant? If so, he can't do that unless he gives up his Barbarian level (not allowed to have levels in both a variant and a base class that grants the same features as the variant). ZevoxYou're not? Why not? I don't see anything to that effect in the UA rules. Perhaps I'm missing something.
templer10 04-10-07, 07:44 PM	question- with levitate you can advance on the ceiling only right? i got overland movement down without a problem but shelling out 700 GP for potion of fly is something i rather not do (and wont until later anyway). also- unless iam mistaken - buying a potion of see invisibility cost 5 credits right - but you only pay for the first time and then you can buy as many of them as i like?
MindWandererB 04-10-07, 07:48 PM	You're not? Why not? I don't see anything to that effect in the UA rules. Perhaps I'm missing something.That would be this: "Prohibited Class: If a player picks one of the 'Other Class Variants' below, he may not take or possess levels in the class that provided the feature. For example, a fighter could not multiclass into a variant rogue to gain additional bonus feats. This is to prevent 'frontloaded' builds."question- with levitate you can advance on the ceiling only right? i got overland movement down without a problem but shelling out 700 GP for potion of fly is something i rather not do (and wont until later anyway). also- unless iam mistaken - buying a potion of see invisibility cost 5 credits right - but you only pay for the first time and then you can buy as many of them as i like?Correct about Levitate, but wrong about blackmarket potions: they cost you individually.
Zevox 04-10-07, 07:50 PM	You're not? Why not? I don't see anything to that effect in the UA rules. Perhaps I'm missing something. Thats because its not in the UA rules. Its one of the changes we made when we implemented them here as a means of helping keep things balanced - so that you can't be a Rogue variant 2/Fighter2/Psychic Warrior 2 with 6 fighter bonus feats, a Ranger variant/Barbarian with +20ft speed, a Rogue/Fighter variant with +2d6 sneak attack for only 2 levels, etc. Heres the rule itself: Prohibited Class: If a player picks one of the 'Other Class Variants' below, he may not take or possess levels in the class that provided the feature. For example, a fighter could not multiclass into a variant rogue to gain additional bonus feats. This is to prevent 'frontloaded' builds. Zevox
Erithmu 04-10-07, 07:50 PM	You're not? Why not? I don't see anything to that effect in the UA rules. Perhaps I'm missing something.It is in there ... Else we could get something wrong like ... ftr 2/Feat Rogue 2/PW 2/Monk 2 and have an ECL 8 char w/ about 16 feats (ballparking here) I thought it was SRD, but it is houseruled: Prohibited Class: If a player picks one of the 'Other Class Variants' below, he may not take or possess levels in the class that provided the feature. For example, a fighter could not multiclass into a variant rogue to gain additional bonus feats. This is to prevent 'frontloaded' builds.
templer10 04-10-07, 07:54 PM	It is in there ... Else we could get something wrong like ... ftr 2/Feat Rogue 2/PW 2/Monk 2 and have an ECL 8 char w/ about 16 feats (ballparking here) I thought it was SRD, but it is houseruled: well 8 feats + 2 good class features isnt so bad for ECL 6 lol.
SauroGrenom 04-10-07, 08:41 PM	MWB, While you're at it, why don't you make a new Tavern. This one is over 3000posts long. I thought that there was some kind of cutoff at 1000 posts.
hogarth 04-10-07, 08:48 PM	also- unless iam mistaken - buying a potion of see invisibility cost 5 credits right - but you only pay for the first time and then you can buy as many of them as i like? a) There's no such thing as a potion of See Invisibility (since it has a range of Personal). b) Custom potions cost 5 credits _each_, not 5 credits for all-you-can-eat.
MindWandererB 04-10-07, 09:02 PM	MWB, While you're at it, why don't you make a new Tavern. This one is over 3000posts long. I thought that there was some kind of cutoff at 1000 posts. Done. I don't have the authorization to close threads, so everyone, just move over there now.